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-- EOTW - Creating Destiny or Was It Fate? (http://www.blu5.net/showthread.php?threadid=19088)

EOTW - Creating Destiny or Was It Fate?

In FMax's time, we know that Liz and Max married at 19; Tess left; Michael and Isabel died; and there was no mention of Alex or Maria.

From Madam Vivien, we know that Maria and Michael were not going to last as a couple; that Alex would never no true love; and that Liz would marry her true love (Max).

After Max and Liz succeed in changing history (the actual course of events, aka EOTW), we are left to wonder: Did Liz create destiny or was it really fate?

Think of what happens: Alex never knows true love because he dies: Tess DOES leave in Departure (only to return and later die [presumedly]; and Liz and Max DO marry (Max at 19; Liz's age not known (18 or 19?). Only Michael and Maria seem to have changed their destiny by Liz's hand -- they wind up together to an unknown future (at least where we are left).

But essentially, the futures that Madame Vivian predicts pretty much hold true. So did Liz, by changing history change Destiny? Therein lies the question. Is it the EOTW or the beginning? Your thoughts.

"Did Liz create destiny or was it really fate?"

This presupposes that 'destiny' is some sort of actual entity. Which I personally don't believe, but more to the point, in Graduation we are left with the impression that Michael and Maria do have some sort of future together, Madame Vivian notwithstanding. Whether this is "by Liz' hand" is a good question but their future is now in their hands and no one else can be 'blamed' for their fates. So I would say it's a beginning.

This certainly brings up a good point......I never actually thought about that......although you do have to consider that they did change some of the history......at least what ultimately ends up happening.......maybe by what actually happened between Max and Tess served its purpose........For all we know, Tess may have only needed to serve small purpose that she wasn't able to when she left rather than died......and it is obvious that Liz and Max are meant to be........although that is a very good question....where the answer could go either way

For me it has to be a beginning. Did Liz change history or did Tess cause Liz to change history. The water could be a little muddy there. For all we know Tess mindwarped the mommygram and then because Max wouldn't let go of Liz could have mindwarped Liz into believing that she had to let Max go to save the world. Yes, I know the episode starts with future Max and future Liz in the Granilith. But still, its a possiblity. (Please Mia don't thwap me!) So, if that's the case, if Tess manuvered Max to seal the Kivar deal then destiny only made a few left turns before making it's "right turn"

If Tess didn't mindwarp Liz and we all know there are a bunch of threads on this very subject then did Liz change history or did she disrupt a time line? Did her sacrifice of the "greater good" set the correct timeline in motion so that destiny played out as it should. OR if the time line was disrupted was Graduation a splinter that may turn destiny upside down...or to an even better fate than we hoped?

Are you running for the asprin yet?

And then there's the post-EOTW version of the Changed Liz Theory which basically states that once they cemented she wouldn't continue to change, and she needed to change (get superpowers) to take Tess's place as one of the 4.

Oh, shapeshifter .. you just suggested something that would've added nicely to Tess' last scene.. If she'd touched Liz in the car that night, just before she got out to head toward the base and set off the fireball where she 'dies', if through that touch she'd passed into Liz her Royal Seal (or whatever made her critical to the power of the group, assuming that was ever true at all), that could've made for a cool scene. Sort of like when Max gave it (whatever it was) to the baby, and when he took the seal back from Michael.


But actually, it's enough that Liz changed at all, and came into powers that now fill out the group. That's something we'll never know about FutureLiz, unless the future becomes part of a movie or mini-series .


Interesting, that cementing has been suggested as a factor in stopping her progression towards powers? I would think the other way around, that the further bonding.. *GASP*.. and cellular blending involved in lovemaking with that much flashing going on.. *omg... *.. like what one would guess happened when they finally m-m-mated might actually deepen or quicken the process of change.


His touch was her catalyst to begin with, so can you tell me how this was reasoned through as a theory? And go real slow, please .. Lots of gory detail on what it was about making love that would've screwed this up.



*waits.. fanning self over all these little visions *

we can also assume since Tess was driven away the world that Future Max has described will come to pass what like 11-12 years from now. Their enemies will return to take over the earth and Michael and Isabelle will die.

This would be a great starting point to put the series into a season 4 or movie. Which enemies will return the skins? Will Kivar lead the take over. Will Max find out that it will take something else to change the future?

Max and Liz always said to each other...."We choose our own destiny". I take this as saying that we DO have a say in what happens in our future....every decision we make will affect our lives in some way. It wasn't Max and Liz's relationship that drove Tess away......and if it is true that without Tess their powers are not as strong....then they may face the same problems of the future without her.

I had really hoped that when Liz's powers started coming out in the end of the show, that they would discover it was becasue of Tess's death, that Liz developed the new powers to bring strength to the aliens. After all, in future Max's life, he said Tess just went away.....when in the changed future she dies. With Liz's new power of seeing what happens before it happens.....I think she could prevent the End of the World........

I've never heard of the "Changed Liz Theory", but I agree with Mia. The biological logic of 'shared bodily fluids' argues for increased powers not a cessation of powers developement.

Didn't Darwin write something about this.........?

When he says Tess "went away," couldn't she have found another way to Antar, maybe through some portal like Kivar did in Interruptus? Then maybe she was the one who set this all up and helped with the end of the world. But since she's dead...and Kivar doesn't want her anyway...or....I don't know...I'm confusing myself!

Actually, I don't think that could have been it, since Kivar wanted and needed that heir. If Tess were to go home without it....he'd cast her off, just like he did when they found out the baby wasn't alien at all. So we still don't know what he plans on doing now, since the show has ended. Is he still going to try and get that heir? Is he just going to give up and decide to just kill them? What!!! What is Kivar going to dooo!!!

Ahhhh! We really need that mini-series or movie....although a 4th season would be even nicer! Maybe if they make a movie and it's a big hit (which most likely it won't be since not everyone is going to understand the movie since they have never seen the show or maybe bits and pieces and so they'll be so confused and hate the movie)...( or maybe they'll be interested and start watching the re-runs so that when they see the movie again they'll know what was going on and then they'll love it and then the ratings for the re-runs will sky rocket) and then they can make a 4th season and then everyone will be watching the 4th season and ratings will be so high!!! and we win!

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Originally posted by Mia of the Wild Sirens

His touch was her catalyst to begin with, so can you tell me how this was reasoned through as a theory? And go real slow, please .. Lots of gory detail on what it was about making love that would've screwed this up.

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Originally posted by jojo
Well Mia, if you must know, latex rubber is a "flash" blocker.......

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When he says Tess "went away," couldn't she have found another way to Antar, maybe through some portal like Kivar did in Interruptus? Then maybe she was the one who set this all up and helped with the end of the world. But since she's dead...and Kivar doesn't want her anyway...or....I don't know...I'm confusing myself! When he says Tess "went away," couldn't she have found another way to Antar, maybe through some portal like Kivar did in Interruptus? Then maybe she was the one who set this all up and helped with the end of the world. But since she's dead...and Kivar doesn't want her anyway...or....I don't know...I'm confusing myself!

Actually, I don't think that could have been it, since Kivar wanted and needed that heir. If Tess were to go home without it....he'd cast her off, just like he did when they found out the baby wasn't alien at all. So we still don't know what he plans on doing now, since the show has ended. Is he still going to try and get that heir? Is he just going to give up and decide to just kill them? What!!! What is Kivar going to dooo!!!

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That is definitely a possibility. We never actually saw Tess enter the building. She wouldn't have needed to turn herself in to the government if she was just going to kill them all anyway.

So there is a big chance that Tess is still alive...and who knows what happened to the baby. Tess could have always "mindwarped" Philip and Diane into seeing this lawyer who handles secret adoptions. Too bad we couldn't see the show go any farther to look for signs of a mind warping.

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Originally posted by Mia of the Wild Sirens
Oh, shapeshifter .. you just suggested something that would've added nicely to Tess' last scene.. If she'd touched Liz in the car that night, just before she got out to head toward the base and set off the fireball where she 'dies', if through that touch she'd passed into Liz her Royal Seal (or whatever made her critical to the power of the group, assuming that was ever true at all), that could've made for a cool scene. Sort of like when Max gave it (whatever it was) to the baby, and when he took the seal back from Michael.

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Originally posted by sourblue
Oh my! I kind of thought about that....and I was thinking maybe all of tess's powers were transfered to Liz because when tess left earth there was no "queen to make the Royal Four" I dunno..But I think that would have been an awesome scene if it did happen.

Hey, how come no one (alien) "felt it" when Tess died...you know how she (tess) said if something happened to max she would be able to feel it? hmmm....???????

If liz gets powers then where is kyle in all of this....considering he was "saved" as well? he can't be part of the royal 4....ahhh I'm confusing myself.... lol (leave it to me, to confuse myself...lol)

Lisa
(SB)

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Originally posted by PennyBlu
I know there is much talk about this over at Shapeshifter's site and has been talked about in the past here on blu.

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Thanks, Penny.. and you're not the only one who has trouble with the search function here. It sucks , it's not sensitive enough to single word searches. I remember that was one thing I loved about the WB search function, it brought up everything relative to even one or two key words typed in, like in my case "leather vest" .

Sourblue.. I hadn't thought about the fact that they never 'felt' her die. Excellent point. And I believe Penny and the rest of you are right about why. Also a good point about Kyle, with his back-up powers to the new Royal4 . He could be like the equivalent of their emergency generator, when their own power is used up.

Oh how I wish I could see what happens in season 4 ....


By the way, I just noticed they're in the process of revamping the Sci-Fi Channel chat area. There's a notice posted at the top. Hopefully it will become a little easier to navigate. I also saw they have one of those idiots posting on there, one who insists on using thread/topic titles that blatantly state a spoiler in them, ala "Did you know Max & Tess have a child?" Even though I know the whole story, it just made my blood boil to have someone out there ruining the suspense for the new peeps . This is where moderators seem like a really good idea...

Wow, I just had a bad day at work because of something incredibly stupid I thought and then spoke about,
so it was very nice to come here and find all you guys interested in something I wrote.
Thanks Pennyblu and everyone.

About the search engine on the Archives site. It's a long, sad story about why it's not working, and I hope to get it fixed in a couple of months. But, basically, right now not all threads are searchable.

But, btw, there are a few blu5 discussions archived here.

Okay, about the Liz-Stops-Changing-If-They-Cement theory (LSCITCT):

First, I like jojo's latex-blocker idea, hadn't thought of that, but with the line about what Max the Saint had in his back pocket, it fits.

But, moving on, in answer to Mia's legitimate question about why would Max-imum touching not giver Liz more powers: Roswell is a story about teens, and as such has a lot of teen oriented metaphors. LSCITCT would fit with the teen metaphor that young people who become sexually active too early can stunt their psychosocial growth. So I'm thinking seeing into each others' souls was good for changing/developing powers, but doing the deed "cements" it, thus sealing off further change.

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posted by Mia:
Oh, shapeshifter .. you just suggested something that would've added nicely to Tess' last scene.. If she'd touched Liz in the car that night, just before she got out to head toward the base and set off the fireball where she 'dies', if through that touch she'd passed into Liz her Royal Seal (or whatever made her critical to the power of the group, assuming that was ever true at all), that could've made for a cool scene....

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"You'll be the fourth now."


Oooh that gave me a good shiver . And we would've seen the knowing look cross Liz's face as she nods, because only we would know how she even has a clue of that significance.


Nope, shapeshifter this "cementing=stopping" deal is just not resonating with me ... I say their fabulously incredible joining launched them into the stratosphere of powers, which meant FutureLiz was probaby half the power behind the Granilith, much less half the team who tweaked it for time-travel.. (*repeats my personal mantra*... Zil/Liz was the scientist who created the G back on Antar.. she was, she was, she WAS..)...


That whole "we needed Tess to complete the Royal4" thing was just bunk, I tell ya .. I still say she went to Kivar's side and fed them critical data that tipped the scales of the war. Max just believed she 'disappeared', when in fact she switched sides when she saw she had no chance with Max. And I think our side lost that war simply because we were outnumbered. The Skins were many, while Antarans were few.

oh huh......wait a minute...I may agree with that after all....hold on...Liz...and then Tess...but when Kivar came down here...but...(decides to switch to Spike fanfic)

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Originally posted by Mia of the Wild Sirens
... I say their fabulously incredible joining launched them into the stratosphere of powers....

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Originally posted by Mia of the Wild Sirens
...That whole "we needed Tess to complete the Royal4" thing was just bunk, I tell ya .. I still say she went to Kivar's side and fed them critical data that tipped the scales of the war. Max just believed she 'disappeared', when in fact she switched sides when she saw she had no chance with Max. And I think our side lost that war simply because we were outnumbered. The Skins were many, while Antarans were few.

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Originally posted by shapeshifter
Remember when the Royal 4 couldn't blast into the Gandarium hive where Alex & Kyle were trapped & Tess asked Liz if she wanted to try her powers?

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If only they could have had a hard-core, true fan of Roswell on the writing staff.......think of the story lines we could have had.....I love the idea of Tess passing her powers on to Liz before her death.....and telling her she is now the fourth.......that would have been great and very satisfying.......

Just saw this smilie around the boards and it reminded me of the balcony scene in EOTW.

Can I just say that I'm absolutely amazed that I have read this whole thread and still haven't gotten confused. I mean, I understand all the confusion! Go me!

And kudos to you awesom theory thinker-uppers for being sooooo smart!

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Originally posted by shapeshifter
"... when FM tells FL she's not letting herself change, he means she's not letting herself get powers..."

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Now wait a minute...this "you are not letting yourself change" thing...I haven't read back up the thread, but it seems obvious to me that he meant Liz was not letting herself accept the need for the breakup to occur...that she was not wholeheartedly behind it...didn't have the killer instinct yet to hurt Max enough to make him go away....(goes back to stuffing banana bread in his mouth)

Hey !! Get with the program here, pallie! We're doing that thing.. you know that thing, where we stretch way way WAAAY out beyond what the writers ever intended, or could've thought up in a million years...

They weren't creative enough to actually write a story that went anywhere. That's our job . Get it now?


So Trav, gimme a serious theory on how Liz's powers might have gotten squashed in the old timeline.. See, I'm starting to think the evidence that FLiz never got them is fairly strong, since FMax says Tess's powers completed them. Why wouldn't FLiz' powers have filled in that gap?

uh...well...(eats some more banana bread)...i'm thinkin

one of the simplest reasons may be that in the original timeline they bond, and she never had to deal with the stress of separation and conflict, or watch him die...being in proximity to him all those years, her potential for power was dormant. I am of the opinion anyway that her genetics were programmed by Zil to morph when the conditions were right...the right memories were galvanized, or maybe they were designed to manifest when they sensed a mind warp or something to Max. If she was his protector/creator when she came here and rebuilt them, then it perhaps follows that she built in some methods to be able to follow along...of course, that is a chapter out of one of my future stories...the one where Zil captures Liz's mom and dad one night on a trip back from Albuquerque and adjusts her fetus with Zil's own genetic material which was doctored to trigger based on certain things ...(takes a sip of milk)

Ooooooohhhh.... *curls up on the couch and settles in for more*


So if Liz was always sort of hanging around with this latent thing inside, just waiting for it to either trigger or be triggered by him (or events), that would mean that the shooting was certainly enough to start things off. But was that destined or random?

That just makes me wonder again if those two guys with the gun might've been there to shoot her specifically.. Remember the audio bit that was translated on the boards way back? When the volume was jacked on their conversation, one guy says something about targeting a "her" or a "she"? Can't remember the details, but I bet somebody here does...

* goes to grab the Uncle Ben's rice bowl from m/w and ponder Zil's agenda some more*

I tried to make that out once, but couldn't..I think it was bogus. That implies someone with knowledge of Liz's history even beyond anyone who was ever shown in the series.

In my world, the shot could have been random, but the inevitability of them being drawn together was not. Max and she had known one another from childhood...he worshipped from afar, and she obviously had noticed him before. If she had dropped behind the counter a moment before the shot would have hit the wall, and Max could have run up and shown an excess of concern for her welfare, and then they could have stared at one another for a moment, and then he could have touched her, and in that moment when both were under extreme duress, a flash could have occurred

Welll... couldn't Nasedo have been plotting a bit ahead? He's about to bring the queen into town, and wants to plow the road to Max? He could've hired thugs to kill off the being he knew (somehow) that Zil had tweaked...?

*reaching, but enjoying it *

That's not bad, though...(thinks for a moment).

That may be a possibility, but remember, before they left Antar, the Queen Mother made them both swear allegience and pass their Royal Bond to Zil ...(shakes his head) I'm lost in the Hall of Time!!

"them both"..? Which "them"?! Be specific!! I'm percolating here!

the Protectors? now I can't remember how many came with her to earth...hmmmm...I need to re-read something

Okay, so then we'll assume the Protectors could never kill Liz due to programming.. bear with us folks... and the shooting was just random, just "a" trigger not some planned moment...

But getting back on point, having triggered this awakening of her powers, what might then shut them off or kill them off? Could it really be a case of their Bonding shutting this down for some reason? Say it isn't sooooo, Trav

FM never made mention of her powers, so I think they were triggered in some way because of the changing of the timeline. The sequence of events which caused the genetic changes in her to come to some critical mass...something like in pregnant women after it is all over...the influx and mixing of hormones can cause permanent changes in a woman's body for good or not so good...the genetic changes in Liz, coupled with the psychic and physiological stress brought on by her separation and having to keep the knowledge of the future to herself, caused her powers to manifest. Or something like that

The line in Pilot was something like "We've got to get rid of her" and it's heard as Liz is waiting on Larry and Jennifer and showing them the alien photograph.

In examining the fight frame by frame, it almost appears as if the two men staged the fight and delieberately aimed the gun at Liz. The question would be, if that is the case, why kill Liz, a seemingly harmless high schooler?

Well, Liz is the one who "creates" destiny. "The best laid plans of Antarians and men oft times go awry." and that's why Liz comes in. Liz disrupts the plans of the Antarians who apparently had a structured plan for the Royal Four which goes awry when the Roswell crash takes place and Liz getting shot. Her attachment to Max also, at the same time, thwarts the Nasedo pact from the get go. But it also quashes the Antarian hopes at the same time. So, at some point in time, Kivar, the Skins, Nasedo, Tess, and perhaps the Antarians realize this. So ... in order to make history repeat itself, Kivar and the Skins would be looking to take Liz out of the picture. Or ... the Antarians, to put their plan back into play, would need Liz out of the way. A decision is made to kill Liz. Ironically, by shooting Liz, perhaps Kivar and the Skins set in motion the one event which ultimately changes history in favor of the pod squad. Now have I confused you?

... Also, it seems to me Tess had one window of opportunity to get to Max, and that was through that whole dreamwarp/star alignment period when she first arrived. After that her spell was broken and he never would've freely chosen her.. accept that FMax set that back on course ... And Liz was also on a collision course with Max at that point , just before Tess arrived, with the discovery of the orbs and all. There were definitely a lot of hints pointing to sexual maturity in all concerned... So why would the deed shut off Liz, if it wouldn't also potentially shut off Tess? Doesn't make sense to me...

FM could have also passed his power to her when they danced, knowing he was about to leave...

Momo, how would all those people know Liz was the crux of the matter? She and Max had never dated...hardly even spoken to that point...it seems a stretch to assume they knew she was the focal point...

Yes Momo but see your fabulous tangent is a diff tangent than mine and Trav's at the moment . I am off on the Zil/Liz track, where Liz was the keeper of Zil's soul, though without conscious awareness, until the healing galvanized things and launched her onto the path toward change. The question is (sort of ) once initiated, could her powers be burned out of her in some way, and by what means and under what circumstances?

And if others, like the Protectors, knew of Zil lurking within Liz, were they trying to stop it, or was it Kivar alone who wanted her dead for any number of reasons?

hehe... having a good ole time here

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Originally posted by traveler
Momo, how would all those people know Liz was the crux of the matter? She and Max had never dated...hardly even spoken to that point...it seems a stretch to assume they knew she was the focal point...

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Originally posted by traveler
FM could have also passed his power to her when they danced, knowing he was about to leave...

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I'm still of the opinion that Liz and the "change" takes place immediately. Liz makes several references to this as far back as "Pilot": "He changed me." So it's not that the change hasn't occurred, it's merely the degree. Liz's development and the flashes she has increase in season 1. Through Liz, they discover the orbs through her flashes. Max senses none of this. Perhaps the acceleration of her powers was not developing as fast as hoped?

But then, perhaps ZIL is the key. Perhaps, it's an encoded message, which refers to Liz -- a message to FMax that he needs to go back in time to find Liz which may account for the backward lettering of Liz's name.

Then again, could FMax be in denial? By telling Liz she has to change, is he denying that he is really the one who has to change?

writers forgot to flowchart the plot lines, as usual

Well if changing himself was his goal .. *bonks FMax's and Max's heads together*.. then he did a pretty crappy job of getting it done, cuz he never really got with the program. Max could have been so much more heroic . He was drawn as too weak a match for all he had stacked up against him. But when he finally did got more forceful, it was all too crumbled and ruined...

*knows I have strayed far from the subject here, but... *

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Originally posted by traveler
[B]Momo, how would all those people know Liz was the crux of the matter? She and Max had never dated...hardly even spoken to that point...it seems a stretch to assume they knew she was the focal point... {/B]

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Originally posted by MIA The question is (sort of ) once initiated, could her powers be burned out of her in some way, and by what means and under what circumstances?

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Because he was not meant to be that way, Mia....when you consider how human genetics are subject to mutation merely from stray gamma rays passing through our bodies as they travel through our galaxy, it is really kind of a weak argument for us to buy the Antaran plan to grow the kids up on the farm then bring them back in when the time is right and expect them to reprise their original stations in life...unless they totally wrote over their minds at some point with the original identities..awakened them in some fashion. What would they have done had there been no crash? I doubt the pods were meant to gestate that many years...someone made a decision to use the Pod Chamber for just four pods, and send the other four off to the sewers of NYC...I bet that was a pleasant argument among Protectors..."But why do I have to go to NYC?" "Because I'm head Protector and I say so!" It doesn't pay to dig too deeply into these areas, chica. my final guess is this...Max was never meant to be King as-is...it could just as easily have been the plan to take the memories of the street-wise Max from NY and merge their minds together when the time was right to make an amalgam of the two...good balanced by bad, in order to come up with a Zan who "used to decide the fate of armies on a coin toss". What was the question again?


Momo, how could Kivar and his group go back in time to trump FM's moves? Since FMax disappeared, the timeline disappeared, so they wouldn't have had access to the G for very long...I suppose they could have gone in a short time after he left, but we are assuming they knew how to do something that it took Max and Liz and Michael and Serina 14 years to figure out...not to mention Cal, who probably should have shown up when the planet got invaded...hmmmm...and come to think of it, why would they need to go back in time anyway...its 14 years later, they have the planet, and the king is gone...game over.

Any good chess player anticipates an opponent's move three or four down the line before he makes that move. I expect Kivar was intelligent enough to realize the possibilities and cover his bases, if it was initiated by Kivar. For all we know, the two men at the Crashdown could have been Cal and Nasedo. There are endless possibilities here.

Now, memories and genes. I believe that the pod squad probably have a memory gene encoded in their "program" which when activated would "reawaken" them -- much like a time-released cold capsule. If you recall, Tess (as learned from Nasedo) tells Max that the dreams were to awaken their biological drives. This might have something to do with the Royal Seal. And we also learn from Tess that their memories could be awakened through memoral retrieval -- that is, if we can believe Tess (which we can't). Information released on a need to know basis?

However, there is one fact we need to take into account also -- that the pods were actually cut open in Summer of '47. While the visual in the program was very brief (cut to one of the pods and the leaking fluid), it IS confirmed in the script. So it's possible that their programming could have been damaged so that memory retrieval was not possible.

Since this is such a great thread for future placement in the Archives, will somebody please fill us in on the meaning/identity of "Zil"?

About chess games, programed memories, and such...
How about Max, before the Pilot, gets subconscious premonitions of being mated with someone who will ultimately betray him (perhaps the 'subsets of time' figures in here with his subconsciousness).
So, just like when he yelled "Liz!" when Morgan Scarechild was about to mate with Claymax, young pre-Pilot Max (the Great Leader/Decision Maker) chooses Liz.
The We've got to get rid of her Beevis & Butthead/shooters are perhaps human/Antarian cellphones sent by Kvar.

And about Liz's changes...
I'm still hung up on the metaphors--
She definitely gets green lightning when Max is near, and not when she's in Vermont. So, yes, he is part of her changing. But, still clinging to the possible double entendre of the "You're not letting yourself change!" line from Future Max, and the importance he put on them not cementing, I still think timing is everything, and cementing too early gummed up the changing process. But cementing a little later may even be necessary so that Liz doesn't "explode." Remember the Maria-Alex discussion about whether she'd explode if they did or didn't 'do it'?

Okay, but see now you have me thinking if THAT were true, then FMax should've traveled back to the let's-hunt-orbs-together-by-moonlight night (Sexual Healing), so that they could've at least cemented back when the first compulsion hit them to do so .

I do buy into age maybe playing a part in this, but the evidence seemed to show that they were driven by either instinct, programming, or mind-warps... If their programming was all pro-Max/Tess, then the Sexual Healing urges should never have happened between Max & Liz, because that would defy the plan, and it definitely felt like an Antaran woo-woo thing that was happening to them, because of the link to the orbs...

I guess it's safe to say now that the V-formation thing that was urging him toward sex with Tess was just a warp, driven by Nasedo's devious plots to serve Kivar.. And I never forget that the V-formation appeared all around Liz's head in a number of epis, like Blind Date and in the NY epi where she dreamwalks Max in the street. It seemed naturally to focus on her.


Back to Zil .. That name was of course part of the Destiny Book, 'Zil' is etched in it above a face that appears similar to Liz, but I guess is actually Isabel? Dang where's Bethalani!

The pic below from Crashdown's gallery shows the image. It's a bit ambiguous what Zil is supposed to mean, but it sits right out there, big as life.. a backward's version of 'Liz' .


*mutters about all the might-have-beens in all this*


Also, I came across links to your site that have old discussions about the Book and Zil.

lizmythology/all/Thread23ARCC.htm
lizmythology/all/...CYN-ITLAITB.htm

I don't buy that Nasedo was part of the conspiracy to kill liz...he stood over her who knows how long that early morning when they dug up the orb...recall that Mexican looking guard or whatever who told them to leave..he was the same guy who was morphed into after michael's step dad was buried...he could have touched her then, easily....

Thanks, Mia! Now I remember the whole Zil/Liz thing. I had forgotten & was thinking it was Bizarro planet Liz--which it still sort of could be. LOL

Traveler, yes, Nasedo had opportunity, but he was programmed to serve Max. And recall Kal being unable to kill Max. Similar programming could have been at work in Nasedo, preventing him from offing Liz.

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Originally posted by PennyBlu
Here is shapeshifter's site:

http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/ and then click on the "Liz theories". Be prepared to spend "hours" there! LOL!

Not sure about the Blu links but I'm sure Ber or Greg or someone could locate those. I seem to have trouble searching here.

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Strictly speaking it's not a backward LIZ, because the L would be backward when it's turned around. Those alien characters are 90% translatable. I did it once using their names in the opening of S3 eps as a guide. Someday, if I have REALLY nothing to do, I'll try it with the words in this notebook thing.

traveler: There is some question as to whether the shapeshifter who stands over Max and Liz when they find the orbs is Nasedo. This is TicTac, the alien who pops pills when he shapeshifts. We never saw this with Nasedo, and if we believe Cal/Kal, then he never shapeshifted until Max forced him to enter the spaceship. That leaves an unaccounted for shapeshifter.

banjo: While the letters are shown in Season 3, they make no sense when literally applied letter for letter. I still think we are dealing with code and that it is Indian) in nature, as our geeky computer whiz later reminds us when he tries to recoup Alex's translation of the Destiny Book. By Indian here, I'm making the leap that Indians are "Star People", the ancient astronauts of Antar. Which brings me back to Zil. The symbol before it is a stylized form of the word "comb". Now one of the Random House Dictionary's definitions of "comb" is: a honeycomb, or any similar group of cells. Could this be the possible evidence we need to assume that yes, Liz, is in fact a gentically engineered human/alien hybrid composed of genetic DNA from Zil ... and what does that say about the Parkers origin? After all, Grandma Claudia does call Liz "Honeybear" which I always found a strange nickname coming from her. Is "Honeybear" another clue? Do our previous speculations about Grandma Claudia have some merit?

And if that premise is true, what does it say about destiny? Liz says to Max, "We choose our own destiny. Remember?" This could reinforce the theory that Zil is a genetic engineer who "chooses" to engineer herself when given the task to engineer the pod squad. "Remember" may have been an subconscious attempt to jog Max's memory.