An important note before I continue:
This is a shipper-neutral thread
This means that those who are for or against any romantic pairing should feel free to express their opinions in a rational and intelligent manner and recieve any responses similarly. In fact, this also goes for any opinions in general - anything can be said here as long as it is said in a respectful way. There is to be no bashing of any poster because you dislike their opinions.

Okay, now back to the introductory remarks:
Jason Katims has said that he read the first book and then based the series on it and you can definately see that in the first few episodes and in the conventional couple pairings, even if the physical look of the characters were changed. However, despite the fact that they are probably co-incidental, I find some of the other similarities between the characters and plot development telling and interesting. Particularly because they reveal the common themes that the book and the TV series share. I must admit that I have read all ten books and did so in a really short period of time, so I often mix up which event happened in which book. Please be aware if you have not read all the books that there may be events from books you have not read discussed here. I really don't consider this spoiler information, since all books have been in print since August 2000. So if you do, beware.

Here are some things to think about, I'll come back later and give you my expanded take on them later (if it's not already been said by someone else).

1) Cameron and Courtney. Yes there are obvious differences, but I found the similarities facinating, and in a way, the function of these characters were markedly similar.

2) Nickolas/Isabel and Nicholas/Kvar/Vilandra/Isabel/Grant. A lot of the issues that were brought up with the introduction of Nikolas seem to have been played out in this second season in a variety of plot lines.

3) Adam and Tess. They are dissimilar in sooo many ways, yet there are some similarities there if you look hard enough. Some, I think, are intrinsic to the addition of a major character late in the game, but some are just cool co-incidences and I love those!

4) Ray/Nikolas and Nasedo. I think this one is rather striking. It is almost as if Nasedo were both of these folks added together in equal parts. :o) Does anyone think the dupes need to be added into this?

5) The parents. Although we see a much stronger presence of the parents in the books than in the show, I think that it speaks to the overall theme of both the show and the books that only one or two ever find out that aliens really do exist in Roswell.

6) Valenti and Pierce. Wow, can we say sadistic? Gotta love those evil folks. I think it was great to see the Valenti in the TV show do a complete 180 and become an ally, but you still have to have bad guys out there and Pierce fit the bill in many of the same ways that Valenti did in the books.

7) Mr. Manes and Valenti. Valienti is not the black and white villian that is painted in the books and in many ways, I think the book equivelant of the TV show Valenti 180 was Mr. Manes.

Okay, I think that's enough for now.
Cheers!
Aphid

I saw your post on the Are the Books . . . thread and had to come check this out.

I've gotta add a couple of more compare/contrast ideas before I go out to get meds for my ds (14 months and has his first cold )

Jim Valenti/Jim Valenti -- They are both the same in some ways, but very different in others. I'll elaborate later.

Clean Slate/Special Unit -- That's pretty self-explanatory.

How about Nikolas/Nicholas? Both have, after all, given the Pod Squad lots of info about their backgrounds/abilities/etc.

The book Micheal is alot more relaxed. He isn't rude or vindictive like the micheal in Roswell is sometimes.
He comforts Isabel, jokes around with everyone. He's more like the mysterious dark guy but alot more smoother than TVmicheal.He's a charmer.

Roswell High
They have a much deeper connection between them. Micheal and Max are friends and Max seems to act as the leader of Isabel and Micheal.

Hmmm... true, particularly at the beginning both Jim Valentis share that calm determination and intimidation factor. I must admit that I liked seeing that Jim's father was also an alien-hunter as part of the motivation behind his drive to find aliens in Roswell (which also meant that he didn't have to be associated with the special unit)... we were not quite as sure of Valenti's motivations in the book. Then again, we never really delved into Pierce's motivations either...

Nikolas/Nicholas - Yeah, I know, I read that in book two (along with the fact that both Max's work at the UFO museum) and was seriously wondering if Katims might have made it to book two as well! Nikolas and Nicholas, despite the fact that they are different species, did both share an interest in Isabel in a more that friendly way and also did both spark something in her from the beginning. They both played on the fact that Isabel did not know as much about herself and really hoped to parlay that into some sort of relationship with her. I also saw a certian swagger in their characters in common as well. Despite the fact that poor little Nicholas was caught in a 14-year old husk, he has that adorable bad-guy-can-do-no-wrong over confidence that eventually got Nikolas in the pickle that killed him. Oops! Hehehe... ah well.

Alienfactors - I seem to remember that first season TV Micheal was a little more like the Book Micheal in regards to his relationship to Max. However second season, I can totally see what you mean. Micheal and Max have had quite a bit less bonding time and they really don't seem as close. In general, you see the friendship bonds in the books more strongly then you see them on the TV show. I think we get all the way to book 8 before we a serious divide or difference of opinion among several of the aliens and their friends. I think we tend to see a little more "us against the world" take in the books, whereas the TV show seems to be using the rest of the world to create pressures within the group in order to explore the relationships between the characters within the group. Really good catch on that difference though, I think the difference in the relationship between Micheal and Max is a really good indicator of this trend.

I also think that it is interesting that Max and Micheal seem to be closer in the books with Isabel often taking the outsider role. Whereas on the TV show, Max and Isabel are closer, but Micheal seems to take the outsider role. Isabel runs off with Nikolas in the books, but Micheal is the dissenter in ARCC. However, it is kinda neat that Micheal and Isabel do share a bond in both places. It warms my cliffie heart (but that's a subject for another thread!).

Thanks for dropping by both of you, hope to see you again!

Human Threat/Alien Threat

Both had this pattern.

The books had Jim Valenti/Clean Slate as the "human threat" but after they'd escaped that one, it was followed by a more fundamental "alien threat" -- the consciousness, which wanted Isabel for itself, then punished Max for not returning the Stones to them.

In the TV show, of course, we have the Pierce/Special Unit threat, which is replaced by the "threatening alien menaces" storyline -- first the Skins, next . . .?

Another related parallel is that it was the death of their pursuer (Valenti/Pierce) that freed the Podsters from the "human threat" in question.

Both had this pattern.

The books had Jim Valenti/Clean Slate as the "human threat" but after they'd escaped that one, it was followed by a more fundamental "alien threat" -- the consciousness, which wanted Isabel for itself, then punished Max for not returning the Stones to them.

In the TV show, of course, we have the Pierce/Special Unit threat, which is replaced by the "threatening alien menaces" storyline -- first the Skins, next . . .?

Another related parallel is that it was the death of their pursuer (Valenti/Pierce) that freed the Podsters from the "human threat" in question.

Wow! Yes you are totally right! Both of the deaths of the main pursuants was followed (more quickly in the books than on the show) with the dissolution of the human forces that were against them. Yes the clean slate organization was still in existance, but the faction of it that was harmful to the podsters were not around anymore.

In fact, that kinda highlights the parallel I saw between TV Valenti and Book Mr. Manes. Both were part of the human forces out to get the podsters, but as it turns out, they were not as much of a threat as was thought. In both mediums the human threat is not monolithic. And, as it turns out (as you will discover if you haven't already) in both medium neither is the alien threat. there are both good aliens and humans as well as bad aliens and humans.

Another interesting parallel is that the struggle on the home world is confusing and it is rather unsure as to whether the folks in the crash were on the right or the wrong side of the battle. We have not seen the conclusion of this story line in the show, but in both places I really like this aspect of the Roswell story. It is confusing for the podsters just as it is for us, who is on the right side? How in the heck do we find out what the right side is?

Kinda neat.

Yeah, I felt really sorry for Kyle when I read that. However, I am wondering if I would have felt as sorry for him if I did not sympathize with him so much on the show. You know? If he were not such a sympathetic character there.

Yeah it's rough for him to be in a mental hospital, but I do admit that if he were smart enough to shut up about the aliens (as Isabel eventually advises him in the dream) and deal with some of his issues with the way his father treated him (which we saw a little of and it was not pretty) they would let him out, so I don't feel too bad.
I like to think that that is what happened and when he was released he was a nice 22-year old well adjusted person rather like the Kyle on the TV show. Well at least that's my hope.

quote:Originally posted by Roswell Chick:
And Isabel is really a bad girl... she uses Alex at first!

Yes, Isabel is really more of a rebel in the book than she is in the TV show. She has many more clashes with Max in the book than she has in the show.

However, I see her treatment of Alex as more or less the same in both media. Yes she uses Alex in the book to get over Nikolas, but she also uses Alex in the TV show so that she doesn't feel alone when M/L and M/M are together. And, in the second season, she just runs off and makes a date with Grant (rather like Book Isabel did with Nikolas).

So, yeah, I see how Isabel is more of a rebel in the TV show, but I think her treatment of Alex is just as reprehensible in both places. *sigh* Some girls just don't know a good thing when it comes along!

quote:Originally posted by Roswell Chick:
But M/L were great.. I just wish that our Squad could see auras- they're so cool!

Oh so do I! The whole Auras thing is really neat and I think it would not be that hard to do on TV. Perhaps TPTB thought that would be just too much work for too little payoff. Particularly because you would have to, in each shot, think about who is doing the looking so that you would know whether to include auras. Yeah, I guess I can see why they didn't, but that would have been cool as heck!

Thanks for dropping by!

Actually TPTB did want to do the auras but they realized that it wouldbe too distracting,Imagine all the colors

Another similiaity I'mfinding between the books and the show concern Adam's character and how he fit into the whole Max/Liz thing- Adam isn't Tess,he's someone else on the show that has yet to show up....
www.nowuntil4ever.com
-------
There will never be another you.-Liz in EOTW

I don't think that Tess was purposefully patterned on Adam, but I do agree that they have some striking parallels. Both had unusual childhoods which caused them to feel separate and too have a hard time acting "normally" or being able to fit in with the group even as well as some of the other humans. Also, both are in love with one half of the primary couple (Max and Liz). Kinda cool....

quote:As was said by RebelChica
I like Liz more in the books I think Maria soundsx too cutesy in the books, and she isnt like that too much in the show. Also Micheal is much more laid back in the books then in the show. More of a joking around kind of guy. And of course Alex is pretty different in the books, especialy after the wormhole incident.
Thats all from me
~Amy~

So true, of all the characters, I think Liz is most like the book counterpart (despite the lack of extended family, dead sister and hispanic heritage) and Alex is least like his book counterpart, even before he goes through the wormhole!

I don't know anything specific, but I have heard that we may see and attitute change from Alex in To Serve and Protect. If so, that would be an interesting parallel with the books. I wonder if it will also make him more popular with the opposite sex....

quote:Originally posted by DreamCandy_Mari:
Actually TPTB did want to do the auras but they realized that it wouldbe too distracting,Imagine all the colors

Well that is kinda cool on the part of TPTB. However I could see how that would be a little distracting in the long run. That is one of the advantages of a book. You can have a precident like that, but only mention it when it is important and ignore it otherwise. Though I must admit, I found myself (once or twice) mentally asking "I wonder what color his/her aura is right now?" it is a neat little tool the book aliens have. *sigh*

quote:Originally posted by DreamCandy_Mari:
Another similiaity I'm finding between the books and the show concern Adam's character and how he fit into the whole Max/Liz thing- Adam isn't Tess,he's someone else on the show that has yet to show up....

Ooooh... I don't think I want to know too much, but is this person supposed to show up in To Serve and Protect?

Though, as I said before, I really don't think that Tess was intentionally based on Adam, just has some interesting parallels. However, it sounds like there might be an even closer match later. Intregueing....

Thanks for dropping by you guys! Come back again.

quote:I don't think that Tess was purposefully patterned on Adam, but I do agree that they have some striking parallels. Both had unusual childhoods which caused them to feel separate and too have a hard time acting "normally" or being able to fit in with the group even as well as some of the other humans.

The word I first thought of regarding the comparison of Adam and Tess was "isolated."

Even though Tess has been to other schools, and says that she's dated some, I still doubt that Nasedo let her go out much at all, to keep her focused on her "role" as the bride.

quote: Alex is least like his book counterpart, even before he goes through the wormhole!

One difference is that the television show Alex's talent for saying the wrong thing at the wrong time is Maria's trait in the book (in book 10(?), Alex starts talking about Max as Snow White and Isabel actually says that they'll have to start calling it "pulling an Alex," instead of "pulling a Maria").

quote:I don't know anything specific, but I have heard that we may see and attitute change from Alex in To Serve and Protect. If so, that would be an interesting parallel with the books. I wonder if it will also make him more popular with the opposite sex....

That sort of supports my old theory --

When I first found out that Alex got sent to the home planet in the books, I hypothesized that's where he's been this whole time he's missing.

Did anyone but me wonder if Trevor's attractiveness, to Maria and Isabel, at least, was because of the "wormhole makeover"?

I've only got time for one right now (gotta run and clean house for a while), but on the Jim Valenti/Jim Valenti comparison, my comment was that it's probably difficult to keep a character that close to the forefront as a villain for too long.

DuPris killed the book Valenti in book 5(?) and at the end of season one, Valenti joined the side of the podsters.

BTW, I've gotta say that my dh saw Valenti's change to the podsters' side coming a long way away. He said that Jim wanted to protect his community from what he perceived as a threat -- aliens among them. But once he realized that the aliens were the ones who needed protection, he supported them.

Hehehee about Alex being kidnapped by the home world! Man that would have been sooo much more interesting than Sweden! Here's to hoping the time in Sweden helps the poor boy!

I never really thought of Trevor being more hansome because of the whole wormhole makeover thing! That is a good point and quite a thought there. Yeah for a moment it sure did seem like all Micheal's entourage of women defected to Trevor for a moment didn't it? I loved how Maria referred to Trevor as Micheal Lite and Fat Free Micheal! Hmm.... that could be another reference to the wormhole makeover!

Good point about the fact that neither the books nor the series seem to be disposed to a steady villian character (like the Joker or Moriarity). Same for the realization that bad guys in either place either get killed off (DuPris, Book Valenti, Nikolas (book), Pierce, Congresswoman Whitaker) or they turn to help the podsters (Nasedo, TV Valienti and Kyle, Mr. Manes).

Likewise, we also see a reluctance in both the TV show and the Books to keep any sort of mentoring alien presence around. Ray Ilburg met his maker only a book or so after they found out he was an alien, whereas Nasedo was around for just days before he was sent to Washington to dismantle the Special Unit, soon after he returns to the podsters in Roswell, he also bites the dust. I have the feeling that this is perhaps a reaction to the desire to keep the aliens confused about who they are and what they are doing. On one level it works, but on another level, it can so easily backfire leaving the audience lost as well. I have the feeling that made no sense, but I'm gonna post it anyway!

I really am eventually going to revist the orignal 7 comparisons and expound on them in length, but I don't have time for that right now 'cause lunch is almost over, so I'll try to do that tonight.

Thanks for the cool thoughts! I'll be back later....
(yup, as much a threat as a promise...).

As promised and threatened, here I am to expand upon my first parallel. Cameron and Courtney.

Yes Cameron was human, but she still did seem to have a lot of the characteristics of Courtney.

Both, obviously were attracted to Micheal and I believe that Micheal was attracted to both of them as well. Yes even in the TV series (you saw that last kiss, come ON!).

However they both also seemed to live a sad, mobile existance where they didn't depend on anyone but themselves. Both very pretty and both seemed to realize that they were really not the best match for Micheal, as much as they wanted that to be the case.

They do differ in that Cameron did show that she was willing to betray Micheal and we know that Courtney would never have done that. In fact, she gave her life to keep herself from doing it.

Something else seemed really familiar about Cameron when I read it, but I can't really put my finger on it so maybe other folks out there can help me. It almost seems as if the repor they had with Micheal was very similar, but come to think of it, she and Micheal really didn't do much talking on the TV show, so I am at a loss to explain that one. The only thing that I can say is when I read the Cameron parts I kept substituting Courtney's name!

Well that's it for me tonight, bbl!

I think it's interesting that Michael, and not Max, is the one captured by the government. One thing that surprised me about the books is that Michael really appears to be the major character -- there is much more of his viewpoint than anyone else's, with Max as a close second. But overall the books really do the ensemble thing very well -- I really know the characters of Alex, Maria, Liz, Adam, Isabel, even Trevor. It's amazing, given the large number of characters, the short length of the books, and how much action is packed into each one.

The Courtney-Cameron comparison is a good one -- both are women that come in to complicate the Michael-Maria-Isabel triangles, Michael finds himself very attracted to both, both have a secret agenda of their own, and in both cases that secret involves a betrayal of Max and Isabel. It's interesting that in the book, Michael never forgives Cameron (unless he does so in Book 10), and even threatens to kill her, while in the show, his feelings for Courtney are more ambiguous, despite the fact that she is basically an advocate for a coup against Max.

I really see Nacedo as a combination of Ray and DuPris. A weird combo, but Nacedo was full of contradictions. He had DuPris's ruthless killing streak to achieve his political goals, but not the sadism. Like Ray, he was a form of protector and mentor, one who was struck down before he could give them the information they needed to know.

The differences in the character are the most interesting for me. I love book Michael -- he seems more like a natural teenager to me, and his absolute loyalty to his friends is great -- but I'm not so keen on book Maria. She works alright in the books, but imagine if we had to hear those giggle fits during every climactic battle? Liz is very cool in the books, and it's great how her science geekiness is both something that bonds her to fellow nerd Max and usually provides some vital answer to the group.

And well, Aphid, you know I'm dying to see them form the group connection. The best part of the book series, IMO. I would LOVE above all things to see them do this in the Season 2 finale. What a great way to end, after all the tension and hostility in Season 2.

I thought I remembered him "spazzing out" and putting his foot in his mouth a few times on the show, but perhaps not.

A few other major differences between the first book and the Pilot -- Liz is hispanic, and her last name is Ortecho, and Alex's last name is Manes, and he is the son of a big time military guy. Plus, the humans and the aliens all really distrust each other, so Max forms a group connection between them. It's like the reverse connection with Liz, except all of them can feel each other. This pretty much unites them as a family for the rest of the series, and when they are connected, they are many times stronger than they are separately, so that they can use their group connection to fight off their enemies.

After the first book, the story becomes almost completely different, although as this thread discusses, there are some interesting similarities. The basic premise of the books is that the podsters were the children of a group of aliens who were exploring earth, but a rebel alien had stowed away in order to escape their world with a powerful device. He caused the ship to crash, killing all the aliens aboard except Ray. Ray rescued the pods, who were the incubated children of the dead aliens on board the ship, and hid them away so the government woulnd't find them. Lots of good stuff happens, which I won't spoil for you if you want to read them.

There are lots of additional characters that don't appear in the show -- Nicholas and Adam are other podsters, Du Pris is an evil alien, Ray is a friendly alien, Cameron is a human girl Michael is involved with, Trevor is Michael's brother.

First though, excellent point Roswell-Obsesser about no female aliens in the books...I never noticed that, but it is totally true...

Anyway...

Max - Max is very similar in both the show and the books, although he seems less reserved in the books, more affectionate with the group as a whole, not just Liz (more joky, more teenagery...I don't know if you know what I mean, but this is mostly evident in his relationships with Michael and Maria - remember how he calls Maria green bean or something? I could NEVER see TV Max doing that!)

I found the comment by someone above that Michael is actually the main character very interesting. I think a large part of this has to do with the fact that Max is all Mr. Spaced out conciousness man for like the last four books. I found that to be very annoying, although the scene where he is playing with the toys in Wal-Mart was hilarious. But remember the one where he was kissing Liz in the supply cupboard and the conciousness took over - that was just creepy...EWWWW...

Anyway, Max's main thrust throughout the books is to love Liz. His original main thrust in the show was to do so, but now his main motivation is to be leader (although Liz still seems very important). Really, in the books he is the glue that bonds the humans and aliens, through how much he adores Liz, which made that conciousness stuff even worse...In the show he is the main character whose dilemma is between his human side and his alien side. In the books he accidently gets sucked into the conciousness, but there never seems to be the doubt that he would definately choose Earth over the Home Planet...this is not as clear-cut on TV...

Liz - Liz is very similar in the show and books too. She seems a bit colder in the books to me though. She has shut off alot of her emotions (dealing with all that Rosa stuff I think) and opening up to Max is like a major step for her. She was alot more scared of Max in the books when she first found out and I think gave up on him a little too quickly after he became possessed by the conciousness. I couldn't stand her bond with Adam either. It irritated me beyond belief.

One interesting thing: while Max is the human/alien glue in the books, I really feel it has always been Liz in the show. Liz was always the one who trusted all of them...Max still has some issues on the show.

Liz seems to more of a mother-figure in the liz/Maria relationship in the books, not a best friend...I think Liz is actually older than Maria in the books.
If I remember correctly:
Liz/Max/Michael(maybe Alex?) are seniors
Isabel and Maria are juniors

Michael: He is by far my fave character in the books (have to say it is a toss-up between Max and Liz on the show - they went down in my estimation in the books because of the annoying conciousness stuff and the Adam stuff...Blech!)and I think is the one least like his TV alter-ego. Michael on the show is MUCH more suspicious...and I still feel like he doesn't trust the humans. In the books, after the initial group connection, they are his family.

His relationship with Alex is much closer in the books - the only scene on the show that has ever reminded me of book Alex/Michael was the video camera scene in MtotheM. As mentioned above, he and Max are also very close...he seems closer to Isabel in the series than in the books. And it was clear that he really loved Cameron (why I'm not sure! I couldn't stand her! But I hated any character who interfered with the original six).

I loved book Michael's relationship with Maria, but I always felt it was much more brother/sisterly than on the show. The ending in Book 10 seemed a little contrived. I didn't buy that he would stay for Maria...for the group as a whole yes, including the humans, but not just for her. M/M on the show have MUCH more chemistry romantically. One scene on the show that totally reminded me of the books was when Michael came to her house in the rain...but it had a totally different feeling. The book scenes were much more innocent - he liked her and wanted to spend time with her, but didn't need her...the TV scene was MUCH more "You're all I have." Book Michael doesn't seem to need Book Maria as much because of Max and Isabel and even Alex and Liz. In the show, his relationships with M/I are much more volatile and thus Maria is his safe harbour. I don't think she'd ever turn him away, no matter how much grief relief she drinks!

Anyway, I'll be back with my thoughts on Alex, Maria and Izzy tomorrow. I must really go to bed!LOL

I hope this babble made SOME sense. This is a great thread!

I'm not spoiled, though I have accidently heard a few things (that happens on these boards occasionally). I could definately see the temptation for Jason Katims to steal stuff from the books, but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

I was struck by Micheal being captured, I thought that was a neat twist, but I never got the idea that Micheal was the main character at all. I always thought it was Max. I know that we see stuff from a lot of people's point of view, but for some reason, the story always seemed to revolve around Max for me. But that is the neat thing about truely ensemble stuff like this (both the books and the show actually), the most important character for one viewer is not always so for another.

Good point about the fact that both Cameron and Courtney were divisive forces in Micheal's life. They both tempted him away from the core group. Perhaps that is some of the major deja vu I was having.

Interesting that you see Dupris in Nascedo. I really never saw Nascedo as evil per se, or even that malevelent against anyone, even humans. That is why I was more tempted to compare the dark side of Nasedo to Nikolas (the alien Isabel has a fling with in book 2). However I do see that certian adherence to political goals you were talking about.

I too, would love to see them do a group connection thing, but I think the chances of it are darn close to nil. Too bad too, I really don't get the "us against the world" sense in the TV series as I did in the books. However, perhaps we will see that by the end of this season. This year the TV show has ramped up the external threats on our little pod squad and one should hope that would draw them together.

GalaxyGrl - The names in the books are the same as on the show for Liz, Max, Micheal, Isabel, Alex, Maria, Valenti and Kyle but in many cases their appearance and some personality characteristics are different. However, the basic relationships are very much the same. However, as Roswellian said, anything after the pilot didn't happen in the books. There are characters that were added since that have similarities to some of the other characters in the book as well as some events that are similar in tone. That is why it is so interesting to discuss them. But esssentially, As the Roswellian said, they are different stories that both have more or less the same first chapter. I hope that answers your questions, thanks for dropping by!

PepperjackCandy and TR - There must have been some spazzing out on TV Alex's part then. I must admit that it would not be out of character for him on the TV show to put his foot in his mouth regularly! I still love the guy.... In that case, I could see how TV Alex might serve some of the same plot purposes as Book Maria. I also have to agree with you TR, book Maria would get kinda old on the screen, I am kinda glad they tweaked her personality, though I loved it in the books.

Roswell-Obsessor - Welcome to the thread! I too would love to see Alex have the top ten list site, I think they could have worked that into the computer-geek personality they gave him and it might have given him a bit more memorability. I also was wondering where all the female aliens were in the book series! I think it would have been really interesting for DuPris to be a woman. But she wasn't and that's a valid choice. I do like how Melinda Metz used the addition of Adam and Trevor to explore the relationships between Max and Liz as well as Micheal, Isabel and Maria. I have the feeling it was just for that reason that those two were male.

Kath7 - Hi! Welcome! I love to see folks who do majorly long posts like me! It makes me feel so much less like a total geek..... I did notice that all the folks in the book seemed more teenagery to me than the folks in the TV show. I think it's because we manage to see the book folks doing more teenagery stuff like hanging out at the flying pepperoni and the mall and interacting with other teenagers like Stacy. I totally agree about the Max relationship with Maria in the books (her nickname was pea pod btw), but we did see a little bit of that friendship (even if it was not very light-hearted) this season, so maybe there is hope for something like that to evolve.

Good point about Liz being the Alien/Human glue in the show where it's Max in the books. However both of them in both places show a deep trust in each of the others. Other than Kyle, I don't remember Max ever saying that he didn't trust a human either on the show or in the books and same for Liz (except Nikolas in the books, but that was with good reason).

I really miss the Alex/Micheal friendship in the books. For one, I love Alex, but mostly because I really want to see a new strong friendship in the show. Yeah, Liz and Maria are friends, but they always have been. I want to see something really cool and new and strong friendship-wise develop in the show.

Good catch on the M/M relationship differences between the book and the show. There was chemistry in the books, but it was all speculative, no one acted on it until the last book and, you are right, that did feel really sudden to me. But yes, the "roots building" part of the frienship was so much more innocent in the books but I think that was a reflection of Maria's character in the books. I don't think that type of thing would really have worked as well with the TV Maria. However I would like to see something between Micheal and Maria on the show that is a little less rancorous. Hmmm..... gotta think about that.

Thanks for the compliments on the thread! [shamless plug] I really hope it takes off, so if anyone else you know shows a desire to come talk about book vs TV show issues, point them our way. [/shameless plug]

Thanks everyone! I have to go back to work now (lunch is over) but I should be back tonight with the next installment of the original analyses I threatened y'all with.

Have a great day!

Yup yup From what I've read I think there;s a match although this new character is different but as we're all discussing about here "not really"....
www.nowuntil4ever.com

Max - Max is very similar in both the show and the books, although he seems less reserved in the books, more affectionate with the group as a whole, not just Liz (more joky, more teenagery...I don't know if you know what I mean, but this is mostly evident in his relationships with Michael and Maria - remember how he calls Maria green bean or something? I could NEVER see TV Max doing that!)

I found the comment by someone above that Michael is actually the main character very interesting. I think a large part of this has to do with the fact that Max is all Mr. Spaced out conciousness man for like the last four books. I found that to be very annoying, although the scene where he is playing with the toys in Wal-Mart was hilarious. But remember the one where he was kissing Liz in the supply cupboard and the conciousness took over - that was just creepy...EWWWW...

Anyway, Max's main thrust throughout the books is to love Liz. His original main thrust in the show was to do so, but now his main motivation is to be leader (although Liz still seems very important). Really, in the books he is the glue that bonds the humans and aliens, through how much he adores Liz, which made that conciousness stuff even worse...In the show he is the main character whose dilemma is between his human side and his alien side. In the books he accidently gets sucked into the conciousness, but there never seems to be the doubt that he would definately choose Earth over the Home Planet...this is not as clear-cut on TV...

I agree and disagree with some of this. I totally agree that all the characters in the books seem to more like teenagers. And I really like that aspect. It's the way they insult each other jokingly, or hang out at the pizza place, or even the way they express their emotions. Like when Michael comes back from the compound, him and Max do that fake crying, "I missed you, man!" that is the teenage male equivalent of "Glad you're back, but let's not blow our cool facades here."

I also agree with your point about emotionally Max being the core of the book group, as opposed to Liz in the series. That's a really good point. I think now that the group is more solid in the show, Liz-as-unifier hasn't been as necessary, but definitely in the first season she was the person who brought everyone together. I really liked how book Max served this role. His peapod scene with maria was adorable.

My point of disagreement is on Max as the main book character. It's hard to pinpoint a main character with such a welldone ensemble, but I do think that Michael is usually given the main POV in the last 5 books.

Max is the main character in Book 1. Isabel is the main character in 2, and Michael in 3. Then we go back to Max for 4, when he's going through his akino.

Starting with 5, though, I think Max is really deemphasized. Book 5 is pretty much Michael in the compound, with a little of Max and the cc.

Book 6 has alot of Michael and Cameron. This is pretty much the last book, however, where Max is still Max throughout. He's concerned with Adam, he's in love with Liz. I would say this book is split between the two of them, with some post-breakup Alex and Maria angst thrown in. But now we're getting zombie-Max.

Book 7 has a good deal of Max getting sucked into the consciousness. I guess since Max is so un-Max like in this one, I tend to discount a lot of this. There is also a good deal of Isabel in this book, Adam adjusting to his new life, and Michael getting emancipated.

Book 8 I would say is an even mix of Michael learning about Trevor, Liz and her parents, Alex coming home, Adam being into Liz. Max is still being sucked into the cc, but is really a no-show.

Book 9 was also mostly Michael freaking about Isabel and dealing with Trevor's betrayal -- even though it was Isabel's akino, we see it pretty much through Michael's eyes.

Haven't read book 10, but heard that Max is in a coma throughout. So I'm guessing this too will be fairly Michael heavy.

quote:
Liz - Liz is very similar in the show and books too. She seems a bit colder in the books to me though. She has shut off alot of her emotions (dealing with all that Rosa stuff I think) and opening up to Max is like a major step for her. She was alot more scared of Max in the books when she first found out and I think gave up on him a little too quickly after he became possessed by the conciousness. I couldn't stand her bond with Adam either. It irritated me beyond belief.

Liz seems to more of a mother-figure in the liz/Maria relationship in the books, not a best friend...I think Liz is actually older than Maria in the books.
If I remember correctly:
Liz/Max/Michael(maybe Alex?) are seniors
Isabel and Maria are juniors

Wow, it's interesting how different people take things. I love book Liz, and infinitely prefer her to TV Liz. I like her toughness, her intelligence, I like how she has a spine, and how she moves on from Max. I thought the relationship with Adam was great -- he was such a sweetie! The women of the books come across as much stronger to me -- they still have the romantic problems, but they don't whine about them nearly as much. Liz loves Max, but she's a teenage girl, and if it doesn't work out, she moves on. That to me was very real.

I definitely agree that Liz seems much older and more mature than book Maria. Maria is very innocent, cute, but also on the naive side. You get the feeling she's the kind of girl that guys feel very protective and big brotherly towards, who always seems about 2 or 3 years younger than she really is. Her character works in the books, but I'm glad they went a different way in the show.

quote:
Michael: He is by far my fave character in the books (have to say it is a toss-up between Max and Liz on the show - they went down in my estimation in the books because of the annoying conciousness stuff and the Adam stuff...Blech!)and I think is the one least like his TV alter-ego. Michael on the show is MUCH more suspicious...and I still feel like he doesn't trust the humans. In the books, after the initial group connection, they are his family.

His relationship with Alex is much closer in the books - the only scene on the show that has ever reminded me of book Alex/Michael was the video camera scene in MtotheM. As mentioned above, he and Max are also very close...he seems closer to Isabel in the series than in the books. And it was clear that he really loved Cameron (why I'm not sure! I couldn't stand her! But I hated any character who interfered with the original six).

I loved book Michael's relationship with Maria, but I always felt it was much more brother/sisterly than on the show. The ending in Book 10 seemed a little contrived. I didn't buy that he would stay for Maria...for the group as a whole yes, including the humans, but not just for her. M/M on the show have MUCH more chemistry romantically. One scene on the show that totally reminded me of the books was when Michael came to her house in the rain...but it had a totally different feeling. The book scenes were much more innocent - he liked her and wanted to spend time with her, but didn't need her...the TV scene was MUCH more "You're all I have." Book Michael doesn't seem to need Book Maria as much because of Max and Isabel and even Alex and Liz. In the show, his relationships with M/I are much more volatile and thus Maria is his safe harbour. I don't think she'd ever turn him away, no matter how much grief relief she drinks!

I totally agree -- Michael is my favorite book character. He's also my favorite TV character, but for completely different reasons, since they are, as you say, not at all alike. I love b-Michael's loyalty to his friends, and how he considers them all his family. I think more than any of the others, he needs the group to stick together -- he would do anything to prevent them from splintering apart, or for anything to happen to any member of it. I also love his easy-going humor, and the more innocent nature he has in the books. I would love to see some of this in the television character, but I think at this point perhaps it's too late to develop Michael in this direction.

I do think that B-Michael and B-Isabel's relationship is very like it is on the show. The books repeatedly mention that before the humans came along, they were the two who were closest to each other. I think that their bond comes out again during the scenes with Isabel's akino. Of all the book-to-tv relationships, this is the one that seemed to have transferred the best. The scene between Michael and Isabel in Blind Date, where she says she'll always come for him, could have been straight out of the book.

Haven't read book 10 yet, so can't comment on the M&M scenes there, but much as I love TV M&M, I haven't seen much there in the books. I think it's the differences in the characters. B-Michael is a natural protector, and B-Maria, is like a cute little sister. I really didn't think that they would ever get together as a couple. While I feel that on the show, there's a ton of sexual heat generated by these two.

Your point about the desperation in TV Michael is a really good one. Didn't think of it that way, but you're completely right. B-Michael doesn't have it nearly as bad as TV Michael. His foster parents aren't nearly as bad as Hank, he's much closer to the Evans, the humans, and to Max. And he's just not as tortured a character.

OK, spent way too much time replying here. Sorry about going on and on. Just procrasting from doing my work

I've gotta disagree with you on this one -- (scroll down or skip if you're spoiler free)
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I know who you are talking about, and the only similarity is his Liz obsession. His personality, background, etc is completely different. Note that I would not normally post this on the Roswell One board, but I did not want anyone to be mislead.

On another note - back when I was reading spoilers and the early books, I did see Dupree as Nasedo paralell. (another note: Dupree is another name that pops up on the television show).

Another big similarity that I saw was the piece of ship that Michael was givin in SO47, and was in the books. The writers of the show definitely could have written the piece more into the storyline.
--Rachel

The Roswellian - You do have a point about the fact that Max is not really an active player in the later books, perhaps it is my TV show bias, or the bias of books 1 and 2 that makes me feel like he is the main character. You are right though, really no one is the main character and in the later books Micheal has many more things to deal with, Max just has the pain in the ass conciousness!

I also like how Book Liz does seem to move on. In a way, I think that TV Max might want to take a page from Book Liz's Book (so to speak) and try a relationship with someone else. Even if it is fated to fail (just like Book Liz's relationship with the HS boy and with Adam) but a good attempt would be interesting and realistic all in one.... not to mention entertaining for me.

You and Kath are right, Micheal is much less tortured in the book. And, actually so is Max. Yeah Max has the health and conciousness problems and the whole EOTW thing is sort of comparable to his keep away from Liz policy in the books, but there still seems to be generally less gnashing of teeth and psychological torture. Not to mention that the white room is one hundred times worse than what Micheal went through at the clean slate compound.

Actually, Isabel is really the only one who has a comparable amount of psychological trauma between the Vilandra thing on TV and the Valenti thing in the Book, well I think it's pretty much a wash. I must admit that I found the strength with which Isabel faced her Akino is amazing and I seriously wonder if TV Isabel would have done the same thing.... But I do agree with you and Kath that Micheal and Isabel's relationship is much the same in the TV show as in the books. I love the fact that that one is alive and kicking in both places (it's part of the reason I am a cliffie). They always seem to be there for each other, even if they tease each other. I was reading the Akino scene and was remembering the reverse-type situation that happened when Micheal was ill (was that in The Balence?). Gotta love that friendship (here's to hoping it's more soon! )!

RachelBrightEyes - Welcome to the thread! Thanks for the info on the mysterious Adam-like character. I am glad that Adam does not appear exactly as in the books, too many CHADs to think of with that senario.

Also good catch about the ship piece! This is just toooo much like the books to be co-incidental, but then I think that appeared in the first book, so no biggie (but I could be wrong, that whole mixing them up thing, ya know).

As promised, here is my personal list of rants part duex!
2) Nickolas/Isabel and Nicholas/Kvar/Vilandra/Isabel/Grant. A lot of the issues that were brought up with the introduction of Nikolas seem to have been played out in this second season in a variety of plot lines.

Yup, we see from Isabel in the books that she is normally in control when it comes to men, but with Nikolas, she is totally turned upsidedown and finds herself chasing *him* much to her suprise.... I can totally see how the Vilandra thing (in the past life) could have played out a lot like the Nikolas one, but with an ending where Kvar doesn't die, Vilandra does. Knowing the whole Vilandra story made me really scared for Book Isabel when I was reading book 2 even despite the fact that I knew Isabel wasn't going to be allowed to die. I saw her rebelling against Max and Micheal despite the fact that she loved them and was so afraid that she was going to end up betraying them without realizing it until it is too late. I know that the TV series Vilandra thing had Vilandra as a willing betrayer of her brother and betrothed, but I was still worried.

At the time I did my first post I saw a little of Grant in Nikolas, but I have changed my mind about that one. Grant is much more like the throngs of HS boys that Isabel has falling at her feet (dispite his age) in that respect. Yeah she was attracted to him, but she was totally in control for the whole thing. So nevermind about that one!

As for Nikolas' little namesake Nicholas... well I saw that instant connection and fasination that book Isabel experienced when Isabel saw little Nicholas in Copper Summit. In both cases it was that there were memories of the home world (and with TV Isabel, her past life) in him that drew her to him. Fortunately (for my easily freaked-out self) TV Isabel was not attracted to little Nicholas sexually. But other than that, I found the similarities striking. Even to the point of that bad-ass attitude, were he old enough, I could totally see little nicky on a motorcycle even if he hates NYC. Hehehe....

Well folks, I gotta hit the hay. Night!

#5 Michael . . . Isabel . . .
#6 Michael . . . Cameron . . .
#7 Must have been missing, since it mentions Max
#8 Michael . . . Maria . . .
#9 Isabel . . . Alex . . .

Well, needless to say I thought, "oh, my God, Max dies in the book?"

So my little Dreamer heart was very, very happy when I read #5 and Max survived (especially since I already knew that Michael would survive the compound from peeking at the other books).

Now, how do I tie this into the TV series?

Oh, I know! I was very surprised that Cameron turned out to not have any powers at all. I was fully expecting her to be the book version of Tess.

The ship piece isn't actually something I came up with myself. I did some reading about the Roswell Incident and a scrap of metal that returns to its original shape after it's crumpled is mentioned in lots of different books and articles about the crash. The Summer of '47 writers could very easily have read some of the same background info I did.

I made up a lot of stuff for the books, but sometimes I'd stick in info I read--like what Foo Fighters were. Or RosWool, that place I mentioned in one of the books that sells products made from wool from sheep who have grazed on the crash site--it actually exists. In fact, it has a web site! I loved the idea of it so much, I had to put it in.

Melinda

Thought you would like to know that the public library here is really promoting your books! They have a whole table with your books displayed and then pictures on the wall behind the table with the cast from the show on it! Of course I had to thank them for promoting the books and show so tremendously!

RoswellRocks!

Thanks for posting! Don't suppose we can convince you to keep writing, huh? I haven't read Book 10 yet, and I'm already regretting that I'm at the end

You did a wonderful job on the books. I read
the entire series several times and far from
being a teenager.

*Liz&Max although somewhat the same, Liz had to watch Max almost die, instead of Maria which made their relationship better because of it.

*Alex&Isabel in the books were a cute couple, and he was in the books more than he's in the show.

Lucky you! My library has the books, all ten of them plus some double copies, but does jack to promote them. They all sit on the shelf, and almost all of them are always checked in because of the zero publicity. Of course, when I start working there next summer, things will change ... bwa ha ha!
--Rachel

My little dreamer heart was really happy too, and I laughed when he asked if she was in the bed with him and when she said she was he said, well not how I imagined it! Hehehe... go Max go! That's a teenager for ya. Oh.... I was lol at the desperate effort to tie that all into the show...

Melinda - Thanks for stopping by! I didn't know that metal piece was part of the Roswell lore (I must admit I have not looked into it ). I was really fascinated by the foo fighters, I too (just like Max) thought Ray was talking about the band... silly me. I was also sure that you had made up Roswool.... that is too much! Feel free to join in the discussion if you watch the show, we'd always enjoy a new perspective. As I've said before, I am totally willing to believe that the similarities are co-incidental, I just find them interesting and telling. Rather like looking at yourself in an alternate universe.... Okay, I know, I'm sounding like book-Maria now. I'll stop!

RoswellRocks - Cool to hear that the library is really getting into it. I must admit that going to a bookstore in person and wandering around the "young adult" section was a little embarrassing for 30-year old me. I was even offered a membership in the young explorers book club! *sigh* Between this and Harry Potter I don't think anyone will take me seriously again.... Hehehe... but I love the books, what can I say? It is nice that there are some books that everyone can enjoy.

OldCandyfan - Welcome to the thread! We're glad to hear from you. You are right, quite a difference between the aims of project clean slate and the special unit. My personal theory on this is that Max, because he was not going through the Akino on the show and doesn't have the whole conciousness thing to go through, needed some really big trial to prove himself as a worthy leader, thus the white room was born. Micheal, not being a leader and not having as much to prove, only needed to go through enough to make him feel attached to Cameron. I was really impressed that although it seems like they were really similar plot devices, upon further inspection, I found them to be less and less alike. Cool huh? Or am I just completely nuts?

Jull_ana - Welcome to the thread! I know that Amazon.com has the books (well, all except a temporary shortage of #10), so if you have the dough at the moment, you should have them in a week or so. I must admit that I wasn't sure I would like them, but I did. They are not the same as the show, but really good in their own right, after all, they were first (well at least the first few)!

RachelBrightEyes - Great to hear you are going to bug the library to promote the books, it's always a shame when stuff like that goes to waste.

And here we go with promised (and threatened) thematic rant #3: Adam and Tess. They are dissimilar in sooo many ways, yet there are some similarities there if you look hard enough. Some, I think, are intrinsic to the addition of a major character late in the game, but some are just cool co-incidences and I love those!

First the differences, Adam is male, was raised by people who hated aliens and didn't know anything about him or his past or home planet and he is infatuated with Liz. Tess, on the other hand, was raised by an alien who taught her about her past, her powers and her destiny - who is Max.

Now the similarities. They both were raised in an atomasphere more or less isolated from the rest of human society. Although Tess went to normal schools and had normal friends, I still get the feeling that Nasedo really never let her get to close to them both because of the fact that they kept needing to move and because he never really valued being a human, so never really encouraged her to embrace the experience. I mean her obvious lack of celebrating any sort of traditional holidays, like Christmas, really showed in ARCC. Plus her positively cavalier attitude towards sex, well we don't have to think too hard to come up with where that came from... All these things, while they are nothing like the isolation and lack of information about the human world that Adam suffered, contribute to her feeling isolated and not quite accepted into human society, and even into the group of podsters. In addition, like Adam, her lack of a normal childhood did have one advantage, she was taught how to use her powers. Both she and Adam are the most experienced at using their powers and were able to help the others both by using their own powers to help the podsters and by helping the podsters strengthen their own powers.

In fact, in this way Nikolas was rather like Adam. It is interesting how the pod squad in both the TV show and the book series never come across a group of aliens more clueless than they are. I mean the Dupes sure didn't show any amazing skills that were better than the podsters, but they did know more about their past lives and they did seem to grow up with a protector. Perhaps the reason for this is to amplify the feeling of being lost in their own bodies that most every adolescant feels at one point in time. Or, perhaps I am just getting tooo into this. Either way, I found the similarities fascinating. I am looking forward to seeing how this other alien that we will meet in To Protect and Serve will compare to Tess and Adam. Oh piffle! I really wish we weren't caught in the stupid January reruns.... all my shows are in total rerun voids, it's absolutely maddening, I may even have to go out and get a life!

Nah.
See y'all later!

quote:Originally posted by GACT16:
Even though I haven't finished reading all the books, (I'm up to 7). I like the couples better in the books.
*Michael&Maria are closer. In the books Michael is more of a perfect boyfriend.

Hmmm... I think I see where you are going, I totally see that Micheal is a better friend to Maria in the books. The way he hangs out at her house and all that, but he really isn't her boyfriend at all in the first 7 books (unless I forgot something - I will try not to let on about after that). For all they think about each other, there's really not anything boyfriend/girlfriend going on there.

quote:Originally posted by GACT16:
*Liz&Max although somewhat the same, Liz had to watch Max almost die, instead of Maria which made their relationship better because of it.

I totally agree with this! Liz and Max go through more stuff together in the books. In the TV show they go through their own private hells and occasionally talk to each other about it, but in the books the suffering is together. I do think that it does make the book relationship closer in a way. I also like how in the books Max is a science geek too and how well they work in the lab together and how they can always do that together no matter how bad things are between each other. It gives a neat depth to their relationship. :sigh:

quote:Originally posted by GACT16:
*Alex&Isabel in the books were a cute couple, and he was in the books more than he's in the show.

I love Alex both in the show and in the books and I am really sad that we don't see more of him on the TV show. I always love meeting another Alex fan.

I think that Alex and Isabel are great together in the books, at least until Nikolas kinda messes that up for them. I loved the miniature golf date! On the TV show we have seen a little bit of them going out, but that was cut short more or less by Isabel herself (and partly because of Grant, but mostly it was an Isabel decision). However, the Alex Isabel intregues are not over at book 7 and I have the feeling that we might see something along those lines when Alex comes back from Sweden, or at least I hope so. I want more Alex! Man I'm sounding like Labrynth and Buffster... :giggle:

Night folks!

I loved Isabel and Trevor together. I would like to see her so happy on the show.

I felt bad for Kyle though, so I hope there's more books on the way. He was right about the aliens after all, so it doesn't seem fair for him to end up stuck in a mental institusion. He was a jerk in the books, but his dad was a total loser. How else would he act.

You can get them through amazon.com (assuming you have [legal] access to a credit card).

Do the credit card companies do conversions like that? If you order them at amazon.com in dollars would they bill you in reales (?)?

I would think they'd have to. My dmil went to Italy last year and bought all sorts of things. I'm pretty sure she bought them in lira on her credit card and the company converted and billed her in dollars.

quote:Rather like looking at yourself in an alternate universe.... Okay, I know, I'm sounding like book-Maria now. I'll stop!

Are any of you familiar with Dark Shadows? Well, in the East Wing of Collinwood, there was a room that'd let you see an alternate-timeline Collins family. I've been toying with using that room to create a DS/Book Roswell/TV Roswell crossover story, in which the book set of podsters and the TV podsters end up on either side of that doorway, able to see and interact with each other.

Now, I'm starting to babble!

quote:all my shows are in total rerun voids, it's absolutely maddening, I may even have to go out and get a life!

A life? What's a life?

Parents on show- Liz and the gang go to Texas. Nothing happens. I mean even though she said she was staying at Maria's wouldn't her father or mother figured out that she wasn't there. Wouldn't they have called. Liz and Max skip school and get into a car accident. Where was Liz's parents? Wouldn't they have known she was at the hospital? Michael "abducts" Liz. Why wasn't Maria's mom looking for her. I mean Maria was even out getting something for her and she never got it back to her mom.

Parents in book- They go camping and Liz gets busted b/c it there was no parental supervision. Alex vanished and his mom was a wreak looking for him. I know his dad knew where he was, but at least they didn't act like he wasn't gone. ( Can't think of anymore examples. )

Ok, my point. The book is a little more believable in the aspect with their parents. I know that if I'm out with my friends or at a friends house my parents are always calling. Liz's lie about her being at Maria's in 258 South, I would get busted for something like that. So thank you Melinda, for making it a little more believable in the books. I really think that in the books the parents were more like parents. The only time I really saw the parents being parents on the show was in Into the Woods and Sexual Healing, but just Liz's parents, which obviously comes from the books. I can so relate to Liz. My parents are like her parents and I'm like her. Minus dead sister and knowing about aliens. ( I wish I knew about aliens. )
Ok I was going to make this short, but I didn't. Sorry about that. I'm sure I'll be back with more stuff about the books and the show.

Oh and a little off topic, but not really. At FF Request, and the Majandra thread, we're voting for a color for the background and I sugessted blue, b/c blue was Maria's aura in the books. Just thought you guys would like to know that piece of triva.

Oh and thanks to whoever started this thread. I can never stop talking about the books. They're great. And so is the show.

Ok someone stop me. When I start to talk about the books I just can't stop. Ok. I'm going to bed now. I wish I could dream walk. Oh!!!!!!!!! That's another thing about the books and the show. Ok, I'll come back tomorrow and do a whole comparison on the dreamwalking in the books and on the show. Oh and the food they eat..ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!! I need to stop. ( You guys all probally think I'm insane now. ) Ok, I'll come back tomorrow. Goodbye and goodnight.

I too felt really bad for Kyle, probably because I like him so much in the show. I do know that Melinda has said that book #10 is definately the end, but I like to think that Kyle spent his time well in the institution, worked on his issues with his dad and left a better, more well-adjusted man. Ah well, I'm just a sap!

PepperjackCandy - I have heard of Dark Shadows, but I never saw more than one or two episodes of it, I could totally see there being some cool book/TV show interface in a fan fic, that would be too cool! Oh, I got to feeling wacky this afternoon and posted a little fic-type satire in the unpopular thread, it's incredibly sacrastic, but you got me thinking about fic, aw nevermind... I am totally blathering now... nevermind! Well keep searching for that elusive life thing we keep hearing about. I'll tell you if I find one.

Piper & Leo 4ever - I totally agree, I was really impressed that we actually saw Liz grounded at one point in the books. It was interesting to see the parents acting like parents and noticing that something was going on that they were not in the know about and not being happy about that. I think that is why, as much as I think it's kinda hokey, I kinda like the fact that Max and Isabel are in therapy. At least their parents are tuned in enough to thier kids to realize that something is really freaking them out and are trying to do something about it.

Actually, on a slightly different but related note, because the timeline of the TV show is so much longer than the timeline of the books, there is something they are going to have to deal with. Next season (should they be renewed, and I think they will be) they will have to deal with the fact that at least some of them (Isabel at the very least) are going to graduate. Either they all graduate (and thus have to go to a university like Liz wants) or keep the graduates in Roswell (something I am sure that Isabel has said that she does not want, that whole Modeling career aspiration and all). Or, and this would be really weird, they have to split them up. Then again, they could just sidestep the whole thing by having the aliens and the humans they love go to planet Sawn. I am interested to see how the TV show handles this little dilemma.

BTW, cool reason for wanting the background of the Majandra thread to be blue. Perhaps blue with little silver sparkles.... :sigh:

I started this thread Piper and thanks back at you for coming and talking with us! Come back again and tell us the rest of the stuff you mentioned!

Rossiestar - Hi! Welcome to the thread! I have to agree with you about Book Micheal and TV Micheal. I find it much easier to like book Micheal, probably because we get to see what he is thinking. On the show we only see (for the most part) what Micheal does and don't really get to see the conflicted motives behind it, so he comes off as a little bit of a jerk, well at least to me. (Don't hit me!)

I also have a hard time picturing Max as a blonde, I just couldn't do it! However, I think that for me watching the show made me like the books more. Yes the characters are different, but the running commentary in my head about how they were different was really interesting. I also felt as if I were seeing two different sides of the characters in both places and wherever there were holes, I just filled in with the character from the other place. Okay, that made no sense. Well for example, I can totally see Maria on the show as into aromatherapy and whole foods. You know what I mean? Okay, well maybe not!

RachelBrightEyes, thanks for that reminder! Yep, I totally agree, the only reason that this thread belongs on the Roswell board is the fact that it is for comparing the books to the show. If you want to discuss the books for themselves alone, that's on another board. Though most folks have been pretty good about discussing both in the context of the other.

Alright, I am going to go to bed before I kill someone with my incoherence. Night folks and thanks for coming out to play!

I like Liz in the books -- giving her the Rosa situation to deal with makes her more likeable and three dimensional. And I love how she has the whole smart, valedictorian science thing -- supposedly it is there in the show as well, but we only get a few reminders. Liz is certainly the strong, calm, rational person of the group.

Maria -- Love how they explored her family life. Her little brother, her dating mom, all supplied in making Maria a well rounded, cute character. She provides a lot of comic relief, as well.

Michael -- Much more likeable in the books, love his sense of humor. Alex and Michael and their wacked sense of humor -- a pairing that we haven't seen in the show, but it would be awesome! I liked how they explored his foster families -- his many foster families, that is, vs. Hank.

Alex -- Probably my favorite difference. He's still the "geek" in the books, but the type of geek you can't help laughing with. I hope they do more of exploring Alex's family this season -- looking at his family in the books helped us understand why he is who he is more.
--Rachel

There are several folks who would agree with you about the Books being an ensamble thing more than any sort of story about Max and Liz and I guess I agree with you now that I think about it.

Actually, in the 2nd season I find the TV show to be much more concentrating on the Ensamble than in the 1st season. I remember seeing the pilot and thinking that this was basically going to be a show about Liz, but as the TV show progressed, it became more about the group, and I totally see it that way now. I guess I got the feeling that it was about Max when I was reading the books because I was reading them with the bias from the show in my mind. But I agree with you now, the books are really about all of them.

So I guess the books and the TV show have that in common now!

I just read some spoilers (well just the future ep summaries from the crashdown page) and it looks like we may be meeting a relative of Maria's in the future. Yeah, it's not going to be Kevin, but I do think that will give us a chance to see another side of Maria, rather like seeing her with Kevin did in the books. It just made me smile when I read that!

I totally agree with you that Micheal is more likeable in the books and we've all heard my theories on that one, so I won't repeat them, but I totally agree. Perhaps there is some way to let us see inside TV Micheal's head, like some moments when he is alone when he might talk to himself or something. I just have a hard time getting what he really feels about anything... that is sooo much easier to do in books.

Yes, I originally thought that Alex in the TV show was going to return in the next episode, but that's not the case, it will be the episode after that. However, when he does, it sounds like he is in for a change in character. I don't really care if we see more of Alex's family (since it seems to be different from the books), but I would love to just see more of Alex period and perhaps see him with someone besides Liz and Maria. He is my favorite character in the books and he is also, for very different reasons, my favorite character in the show. Alex was more of a "funny cool guy" in the books whereas he is more of a "music computers geek" in the TV show. For instance, I don't think we would see book Alex hack into that video survelliance camera, that would be more Adam's area of expertise. hehehe... But ya never know.

Thanks for dropping by Rachel!

Well back to my thematic rants....

#4 Ray/Nikolas and Nasedo. I think this one is rather striking. It is almost as if Nasedo were both of these folks added together in equal parts. :o) Does anyone think the dupes need to be added into this?

There has already been a lengthy discussion on the ways that Nasedo resembles Ray and Nickolas, so I will be breif about this. Basically I saw Nasedo as sharing Ray's survival of the crash and sadness at being alone and away from the home planet, but lacking the warmth and genuine affection for humans that Ray had. On the other hand, Nascedo had a much more Nikolas-like view of humankind. Sort of a lower species that could be fun but was to basically be ignored and occasionally killed if it served his purposes.

I am curious if we will ever see an alien in the TV Roswell that has Nikolas' total lack of fear of humans. I am thinking it would have to be a young alien or one that has not been on the planet for very long, because it is clear to me that although Nascedo didn't view humans as equals, he did fear them, or at least the special unit.

The Dupes. When I was reading about Nikolas, I totally got a flashback to the dupes. That bad-*ss attitude and all that living outside the human world. Yeah Nikolas was in school, but I have the feeling he gave his parents the slip, though that is not mentioned in the book. Either way, it seemed like both the dupes and Nikolas were living on their own and making their way in the world by using their powers to steal and do fun stuff. It's kinda sad, I think that both the dupes and Nikolas, without a hope that they could go home to thier planet, might eventually have to learn the lesson that Ray did... when in Rome, do as the Romans do. It almost makes me wonder if Ray wasn't a little like Nikolas and the dupes when he had just escaped from the crash, but was mellowed by the passage of time and the fact that is was older than them and therefore smart enough to stop before he got himself killed. Just a little something to ponder.

Well I'll be back with more later, as always....

Night folks!

quote:Originally posted by Roswell_Lvr15:
...mainley what I am trying to say is don't change the show to be like the books its what keeps us ROSWELLIANS in suspense

I agree with you here totally. The show is not the same as the books. They are similar, but we really should not see the TV show morph into the books because if it did, well, there would then be no point to the show!

I like the books too, but I want to remind you that I would like to stay away from getting into a debate, or even just talking about whether we like the books or the TV show better. That's not the point. The point of this thread is to discuss the differences and similarities and what that says about the choices made by each of the storytellers.

I think it is fascinating to see how some of the characters in the TV show may be very different from the characters in the book, but actually serve a lot of the same thematic functions. Finding stuff like that is cool as heck!

Anyway, thanks for coming in and I hope to see you back soon.

Cheers!

Well, here goes - I agree with the people who have posted that Michael seems to be the main character in the books, at least the later five or so. What I really appreciated about the books, though, was the way that we got to see every character's point-of-view. The best episodes of the show have been like that too, in my opinion. Since Michael is my favorite character in both the show and the books, I was thrilled to see how much attention he received, and to get inside his head and hear his thoughts.

At first, all I could see was the way that book-Michael and tv-Michael were different. Book-Michael seems so much more innocent and happy, compared to the version on tv. Deep down, though, both see themselves as the protectors of the group. Book-Michael would do anything (including die - literally) to protect the members of his family. He takes Maria's place as the decoy to lure out the bounty hunter aliens, goes into the Clean Slate Compound to get the crystals to save Max, and was going to risk using the Stone to find the ship, even knowing the risks (again, to save Max). He thought that if one of the group had to be sacrificed, it should be him - that he was the most expendable of them all because of his lack of family and people who would miss him. I think that is very similair to what Michael did on the show in "Crazy". He didn't want Max to take the risk of meeting with Topolsky, but he was willing to take the chance with himself. He only let Maria come along with him because she threatened to sic the Sheriff on him if he didn't. Michael will always be the one to jump first into danger.

I've also noticed how both Michaels move themselves protectively to protect the others. On the show, Michael jumped in front of Max to get between him and Tess when they were confronting her about her being the fourth alien (either in "4 Square" or "Max to the Max"). When Valenti came to the diner to confront them about the surveillance on the Hardings, Michael moved closer to Maria. In the books, Michael was very protective when he noticed Kyle (who I felt kindof sorry for) was watching Maria at her brother's baseball game. Even Liz, who was suspicious of at first in both versions, gets his support and protection once she is accepted into the family. Although I didn't like the fact that Max and Michael were fighting in the show, I was impressed by how angry Michael was that Max was betraying Liz by kissing Tess. The family will always be first for Michael, because deep down that's all he's ever really wanted.

Anyway, all of that to say that while both versions of Michael have obvious differences (I think book-Michael would be more fun to hang out with, while tv-Michael is better looking), their basic personalities are the same. Tv-Michael is who Book-Michael might have been if he had been sent to live with Hank for his formative years. Sorry for the long post.

I disagree with this one -- so far, I think, the season two group show has failed. Instead of making each show about all of them as a group, they're trying to give each character an episode of their own. But this doesn't make it a group show -- it just makes the storyline choppy and excludes some of the characters. For instance. The Isabel episode, Surprise, we saw perhaps 5 minutes of Liz, or less. The Michael episode, SO47, also very little Liz. I know SO47 was stand alone, but they accomplished very little by giving Michael and episode and bringing in all kinds of information and plot options that they don't even use. And the Liz episode, EOTW, was all Liz -- maybe 3 seconds of Michael and Isabel. And recent storylines seem to be tearing the "group" apart. (I put group in quotations, because they were never really a group of friends - just an assembly of people forced to work together by what they know for the common good).

quote:
For instance, I don't think we would see book Alex hack into that video survelliance camera, that would be more Adam's area of expertise. hehehe... But ya never know.

I was just thinking about this the other day -- Max or Michael said the tiny video camera they found would wipe out the Police Department's budget for a year, yet Alex happens to have all kinds of things such as that.
--Rachel

Michael's responses to the two girls were the same, too. From the first, interest and attraction. His feelings for them were more physical than emotional, though. In both situations, I got the feeling that Courtney/Cameron was much more experienced than Michael (and in Season 1, I never would have thought of Michael as naive or innocent, but that was before we saw him deal with Courtney's advances and saw Rath/Lonnie ) When it came down to it, though, both Michaels put the group ahead of his feelings for Courtney/Cameron. Book Michael dumped Cameron as soon as he found out she betrayed them. He even threatened to kill her if she told anybody about them (and she certainly seemed to believe him). TV Michael did try to kill Courtney as soon as he found out she was a Skin - I doubt it was his television he was aiming for with his power blast.

I also liked the fact that Micheal was so much easier to understand in the books. I must admit that Micheal is my least favorite character on the show just for that reason. We really never know what he feels. In the book series that is sooo much better and because of it, I like book Micheal much better. Man I've said this before.... Well you know then. I must admit I do see what you are saying about how Micheal is always the first to jump into danger particularly when he can protect someone he loves. That is cool. Thanks for the comments and don't worry about the long post. That's sorta the norm here!

RachelBrightEyes - I agree that the second season episodes seem to be concentrating on one person at a time. However, I don't see that as necessarily meaning that this is not an ensemble show. Yeah, I wish we could have seen more of the other characters in Suprise and EOTW and I tend to really mourn when I don't see characters I like (I'm really missing Alex). On the other hand, I can see that there is only a certian amount of time and they are trying to show more depth to characters and are thus using more time to do it.

The bottom line to me is that I consider it an ensemble show because all the characters are equally important to the story arc of the entire season. But I can totally see your point that it is an ensemble that is really not like the books. In the books the stories were more entwined than on the show.

I also admit that the amount of rancor on the show lately has made me despair. I am trying to convince myself that this is like the middle of a book and that things will all work out when this fighting storyline has come to it's conclusion. However I miss the way that in the books friendships did not simultaneously combust, they kinda took turns.

Hi Galaxy Gal! I can definately recommend the books, when you've read them, come on back!

Anla - I totally agree with you on the Cameron/Courtney connection and the similarities in plot purpose and Micheal's reaction to her. I was also totally thinking of Courtney when I was reading about Cameron and with the upshot, that Micheal had to choose to stay loyal to the group and did so in the end. However, in the show, I don't think this test is over. Courtney mentioned that there are more Micheal worshippers out there and since Micheal and Max have not exactly made up yet, I am willing to bet that there are good odd that another Micheal-worshipper might figure into that plot line. Well here's to finding out soon!

Cheers!

I miss the friendships on the show too. All the angst and fighting gets wearing on the audience after awhile. Seems like first season, Max and Michael were able to fight and disagree without getting so, I don't know, mean about it. I am really hoping that things get back more the way they were. After all, Max has reconciled with Isabel and Liz (as friends - hopefully will be more soon). You don't think Max and Michael have made up yet? They certainly seemed to be close in the Christmas episode (it was great to see Michael take Max to see Sydney at the end), but you could be right. I keep hearing that was supposed to be a stand-alone episode, so I'm not sure how much it will have to do with the feel of the show when it finally comes back with new episodes (aargh, when will that be anyway?)

Next thing to discuss -Stones of Midnight (books) vs. Granalith (show). Similarities: both are alien artifacts with immense power. It seemed like the Stones of Midnight could be used for a multitude of things - see people/places pyschically, open worm holes, burn holes in people. As of yet, we still don't know what the Granalith was actually created for, but we do know it's versatile - it can be used to heal Skins and help them survive (or so they say) and can be modified for time travel. Both items are being searched for by the Pod Squad's alien enemies, who are willing to do anything to get them. Differences: The Stones are certainly easier to carry around than the Granalith! I hope that using the Granalith doesn't bring down the wrath of the alien bounty hunters on our heroes. They have enough to deal with right now, what with the Skins and their own messed-up lives. Did the bounty hunters give anybody else the creeps while reading the books?

Yeah, as you said, it's a stand-alone episode, so I don't think we'll see that carry over. Plus that really seemed unnaturally sudden to me. It all goes back to that problem I have with TV Micheal, I can never tell what he is feeling. What made him change his mind about the kids? Was it just that they were cute? The next time they see someone get run over by a car is Micheal going to encourage Max to heal them? Or was it just a one time thing, Micheal realized that Max needed to do this to heal himself (like Liz said).

But I digress. The point is, the major underlying problem that Micheal has with Max is that in his opinion, Max does not listen to his advice. That issue is going to have to be dealt with in a different way, IMHO. I think we are going to need to see Max ask Micheal's advice on something and Micheal bow gracefully to a decision of Max's or somehow recognize that he would rather have Max be in charge than be in charge himself, before we get real closure to this dispute.

In the books this really wasn't a factor because Max was not dubbed King and appointed the ruler, he just was the natural leader of the group. As a result, although Isabel sometimes felt like she was being bossed around, no one could say that Max as leader wasn't, ultimately, their decision.

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
...when it finally comes back with new episodes (aargh, when will that be anyway?)

Our next new episode titled "To Serve and Protect" will air January 22nd. You can read a description of the episode on http://crashdown.mediablvd.com under "Spoilers" or you can look it up at the TVGuide website at: http://www.tvguide.com go to listings, then pick the 22nd and 9pm.

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
<Next thing to discuss -Stones of Midnight (books) vs. Granalith (show).

Good catch! There definately are marked similarities and differences here. I totally agree with you on many of the similarities (alien, mysterious, powerful, versitile and coveted) and differences.

about the portability thing! Yes, that is a little problem for our TV podsters. They have to keep the Granolith safe and they can't exactly hide it in a jar of marbles or put it in their pocket and take it with them. I wonder if they realize that this, more than anything, means that they must keep their cover in Roswell. After all, they are going to have a harder time protecting the Granolith if they had to hightail it out of town and live on the run.

I loved the idea of the use of the stones having consequences. It reminded me a little of the Mom message also sending out the signal on the TV show last year. And yes, the bounty hunters did creep me out to no end. I am still puzzled (perhaps I need to go back and reread) why the bounty hunters were on DuPris' side. Did DuPris know he was going to loose the Stone back on the homeworld? After all, didn't he escape with the stone in his posession?

But I digress... again! The use of the stones having that sort of consequence resulted in the feeling that the stones were almost too dangerous to use. I wonder if, in the future we are going to see that the Granolith has this type of feel to it. It's very powerful and it can do anything, but its use has dire consequences.... that would be interesting. I also wonder if more will be made of the religious aspect hinted at in Max in the City. As far as I know the stones did not have a religious overtone, but this could be an interesting difference as well.

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
Did the bounty hunters give anybody else the creeps while reading the books?

Oh yes! They creeped me out big time. Huge larve with big bad powers. Ewwww.... no thanks!

Anyways, book Michael vs. show Michael. To whoever said that TV Michael was what Book Michael would have become with Hank, that was a great observation. Never thought of it like that, but it's so true. Protector TV Michael comes out in so many ways, but I think the most illustrative is his speech to Valenti in S&B, when he says that's he afraid he'll fail everyone if he's not prepared enough, and it's this fear that propels him to keep pushing Max and himself.

The Michael-Max hostility is an interesting theme in both. Even without the king plotline, in the books and in S1 Michael seems to defer naturally to Max as the leader. I think there is an interesting parallel in the source of the breakdown of their relationship. In the books, their relationship starts to break down when Michael is faced with a split in his loyalties between Max and Trevor, his brother and a rebel from his home planet. I think that one source of tension that we'll see between Max and Michael will have to do with Courtney and the Michael-worshippers, yet again a rebel from his home planet. Michael has the real need to belong to something, to feel that his contribution is important. With Trevor that tie is family, and with Courtney it's a tie of loyalty to the people who have supported him. I think there is a sense that Michael has that he's been thrown together with Max -- that they are friends through circumstance, not so much by choice -- and that until the choice is consciously made that Max is his "brother" in the ways that count, these other loyalties will call to him. He does come to this realization fairly easily in the books, when Trevor turns against Max. I think the book realization will be much more slow and torturously painful -- at least for me

Of course, in the show, as Aphid says, this is complicated further by the king-Second storyline. Plus, I would say that television Max has more serious control issues than book Max.

I see the jockeying between the two as equally Max's and Michael's fault. I think Max needs to have control, and he often establishes that control by putting Michael down. Michael's plans are always outlandish, while Max's are always thought out. Max is always coming to bail out Michael. Max has visions, Michael has hallucinations. I personally feel that between them, they have an equal number of brilliant ideas and radical missteps, and that the latter usually happens to both when they ignore each other's advice. Really, haven't Michael and Max had to bail each other out an equal number of times for making stupid errors? Yet because Max can't acknowledge Michael's contribution, and because Michael has both an inferiority complex and a need to prove himself to Max, they keep widening the breach between them.

What needs to happen is that Max has to let go of some of his need for control, and as Liz once said, put his faith in the people around him. I have a feeling that a lot of what cost him the throne before is this need to micromanage, to accomplish everything himself, to take the worries of the world on his shoulders in the belief that only he can solve them. Michael needs Max to trust him, needs Max to take his advice, before things can get better between them. And as Aphid said, Michael needs to back Max up -- he's under a lot of stress, and tearing him down does nothing to help.

Aphid, I agree and disagree on the hard-to-understand Michael. What I mean is, I agree that now I have a hard time getting into his head, but I disagree that Michael was always the least accessible of the characters, as compared to the book counterparts.

In my marathon of episode watching, one thing that I had forgotten about the early episodes is that in fact, Michael is not so taciturn and closed off as I had thought. I have a habit of projecting Season 2 Michael -- who is much more angry, closed off, expressionless -- onto Season 1 Michael.

IMO, he is very open, for example, with Max and Isabel. This is true both in his facial expressions, which were much more revealing last year than this, and in what he says. He talks to Max often about his feelings for Maria ("I'm afraid I'm going to hurt her just by being who I am"), he talks to them both about his desire to leave Roswell, his jealousy of their perfect lives, his own need to find out their origins. He tells Maria about his dream to be taken away from Roswell on a spaceship, because there has to be something better for him out there. He tells Liz he's jealous of Max. We have the great scenes between Michael and Isabel in Blind Date, yearning Michael watching the Evans in Morning After, Stonewall Michael in Toy House. I think he often is willing to lay himself on the line, in a way that we don't see some of the other characters do.

I think we know a lot more about Michael's inner life, for example, than either Alex or Isabel, who are both mysteries to me. Same for Kyle -- we know some more about him this year, but still not what makes him tick.

I do agree, however, that at some point this changed. I would say the end of last season. I started not really understanding Michael as a character right around MitC. There were still some revealing scenes since then (I would cite too the Isabel/Michael baby conversations, the outburst after he killed Pierce, the talk between Michael and the Sheriff in S&B), they have been much fewer and farther between, and I have a harder time reading Michael's face to know exactly what's going on with him.

So the point? Well, what I think is that if you examine what book Michael and TV Michael actually say and express, I think there's a case to be made that TV Michael, particularly Season 1 Michael, is actually the MORE expressive and emotional of the two. It just doesn't seem like that at first glance, because we as reader are given access to Michael's internal perspective. So the reader gets access to Michael's thought processes in a way that I don't necessarily think the book characters do, except through their group connection. Book Michael is much more jokey, more flippant, less intense than TV Michael. I just can't picture b-Michael having the ID breakdown scene. B-Michael doesn't really seem to confide his feelings to his friends that much. He hugs Alex really quickly when he returns from their planet, he mentions as an aside, and only to Maria, that he's moving foster homes, he waits for days about telling anyone about Cameron's betrayal, and then only cause he has too. That's not to say his friends don't understand him and know that he loves them, but it's all without being told.

OK, this is insanely long, and I'll end it without any more ado.

Good point about the fact that in order for TV Micheal and TV Max to make up not only does Max have to consult Micheal and Micheal back Max up, but Max also needs to let go of his "this is all up to me" complex. He needs to lead not like an army Sargent, but like the President (like on West Wing). The President has a vision and a philosophy, solicits ideas about how to implement them, then makes a choice about the next course of action. You and Liz have a point, he needs to listen to and trust those around him.

Also good point about Micheal being more open last season. I really should find a way to view them again because I think I must have forgotten how open he was back then. I was comparing Season 2 Micheal to Book Micheal and finding them both enigmas from the outside.

Good point that TV Isabel, TV Alex and TV Kyle are also really hard to read and quite different from the books, but I need to talk about that later because I need to leave! *sigh*

I'll pick this up later!
A big thanks to everyone who has posted here thus far, I really love these long, in depth discussions of character. This rocks! Thanks!

Or go here. It's very, very detailed, though, so be warned!
--Rachel

Anyway, about Michael trying to heal the kids. You know, one of the things I love so much about Roswell is the complexity of the characters. Michael is my favorite, yet there are times when I would be tempted to grab a skillet from the Crashdown and hit him over the head with it. I also really like Max, but he has his own little insanities and annoyances too. Same with all the characters. This mixture of admirable qualities and flaws works to make them seem believable to me. Anyway, one of Michael's signature traits is the need to protect. His jail cell speech in Skin and Bones reinforces this ("All I can think about is, what if I'm not strong enough?") And I've already listed lots of examples from the books. Healing that man would not have been in the best interest of the pod squad's protection. Neither was healing Liz, for that matter (as Michael points out repeatedly). So his reluctance to encourage Max to heal Sydney was not out of character. I can see where you would be confused by his change of heart, though. He went along to protect Max, who he knew full well would go to the hospital with or without him. After all, as someone else pointed out above, Max and Michael do seem to keep bailing each other out of trouble. Then he saw those children, saw that Max could heal so many of them, give them new life, and he hated the fact that he was unable to do it. Remember his breakdown after killing Pierce ("You're good, and I'm bad"). I actually think that way deep down, Michael is possibly one of the gentlest of them. He worries about protecting them, and about hurting Maria. On the other hand, he has been put into this situation where he has to be a soldier, the warrior, the killer. For a boy who was the victim of so much abuse and violence in his own life (Hank, of course, but also Max has hit him - both father figures lashed out at him in anger), this has got to be tearing him up inside. So no wonder it's hard to figure out what he's thinking - he's filled with contradictions, and (unlike the books) we don't get the chance to see what's going on inside his head.

Actually, the above ramble helped me think of another difference in the Max/Michael relationship in the books and show. In the books, Max and Michael are best friends, practically brothers. In fact, doesn't Max tell Michael in one of the later books that he is as much Michael's brother as Trevor is? Like brothers, they disagree, but things pretty much always work out. When push comes to shove, they would never hurt each other. On the show, there was friendship, yes, but it also seemed like Max was a surrogate father figure for Michael. Michael would go to Max for approval, tell him all his ideas about finding their way home, relate his visions to him, and rely on Max to bail him out when he got into trouble. In return, Max tried to make the adult decisions, tried to tell Michael when a plan was "feasible" or not, and stepped in to clean up his messes. This father figure role can't be easy for a high school student like Max. It creates more tension in lives that already had more than enough. Like it isn't hard enough to be an alien-human hybrid stuck on earth with only two others of your species.

Well, I did it again. Another amazingly long post. Going now. Only one last thought - who do you think was the stronger character emotionally - Book Isabel or TV Isabel?

Click the "quote" button at the top of her post. But I had problems quoting her too -- It didn't quote the right thing. A different message showed up, so I had to do it manually.

Definitely T.V. Isabel is stronger. Book Isabel was in fear of Valenti all her life. Plus she had that neatness thing whenever she freaked out, which was quite a bit in the books.
--Rachel

Anla - You can just press reply with quote, but that really only works if you want to quote the entire post and reply only at the bottom. That really doesn't work well with the mega-long posts we tend to have here.

The UBB code they use here is easy enough though and you can just type it in:

1) First press reply with quote so you have the text of the message in your post.

2) Then type:
[ quote ] Originally posted by Whomever: [ b ]
Text that you wish to quote goes here
[ /quote ] [ /b ]

3) Of course, you have to take all the spaces out, I had to put them in so that you could see the code.

4) Then you can erase any text you don't wish to quote or repeat the process again. The quote commands surround the quote and the b commands surround the bold text. So it looks like this:

quote:Originally posted by Whomever:
Text that you wish to quote goes here

A final tip, if you ever want to see how someone has done something, you can click the edit button (next to the reply with quote button) and look at the ubb code used. You won't be able to change a post that isn't yours, but you can copy and paste from it.

I hope this helps!

Okay, hope this works. Rachel, you've been answering my questions all over the place. Thanks for all the help.

You know, I asked about Isabel because it was a question I can't resolve for myself. I basically agree with you. For the most part, Book Isabel seems the most emotionally fragile of the group. In particular, her break-down at the end of the second book, when Valenti killed Nicholas. I had actually spent that entire book being angry with her for the way she was treating Alex and all the other humans, but I really felt bad for her at the end. Her fear of Valenti was so all-encompassing. I really can't see book Isabel ever managing to get up the courage to go up to Valenti and flirt with him in order to distract him from going into his office and finding Max and Michael. She would have frozen up completely.

However, by the end of the series, I think Isabel had grown alot. Maybe it was having the whole group for support. Maybe it was having Valenti dead. Maybe it was having to face her worst fears (Project Clean Slate, evil aliens, Michael being captured) and surviving them. Isabel made the choice to risk her life rather than go through the akino. That's a pretty major decision for a high school student to make. She faced the situation pretty bravely, too. I was impressed.

On the other hand, TV Isabel started off strong and tough, with her Ice Princess routine, but then she started to fall apart as the season went on. I remember how terrified she looked when Kyle confronted them all in the motel room in 285 South. Their perfectly ordered world was falling to pieces around them. But she never let her fears debilitate her the way Book Isabel did. She hasn't exactly been making great decisions since learning about the whole Vilandra situation either. Still, she is definitely more functional than the Isabel we saw in Books 2 and 3. She isn't sitting catonic in her room while Alex tells her silly stories outside her door (although I wouldn't mind if he did - at this point I'd be happy to see Alex doing anything, I miss him).

Okay, babbled enough for tonight. 'Bye

Isabel. Wow what can I say. I think that we have not been given much information, as Roswellian pointed out, as to what makes TV Isabel tick. We see some of the emotional crutches that each character relies on, so I don't really think of either as stronger than the other, but just different. They are alike mostly in that they try very hard to put forth the appearance of strength and control to the point of often shutting out the very people who can help her.

Book Isabel is afraid of Valenti and has always resented the fact that Max feels protective of her and wants to tell her what to do, particularly when it comes to using her powers. She has always loved to use her alien powers, yet she also runs with the popular cheerleader crowd at school. When she is freaked out, she likes to organize stuff (a really endearing trait actually, and a useful way of signaling to her friends how she is feeling), but often needs the intervention of her friends to help her sort stuff out to a reasonable conclusion.

TV Isabel also runs with the popular crowd (or at least that is what I thought in season 1, it's hard to tell in season 2) but really doesn't cherish her alienness like Book Isabel does (Micheal fulfills that role on the TV show). Her desire is to be "normal" and fit in, in fact, succeed and surpass the humans around her. Again and again we see Isabel trying to do what is human and normal, yet slowly being forced to realize that, in fact, she is not and she has a past that she can't control. She is not haunted by her fears of Valenti like Book Isabel is, but by her wariness of the alien in herself and this past she has been told she has and which she does not want to see surface, but is afraid is lurking inside her.

Despite the complusive behavior we see from Book Isabel, I would judge her to be the stronger of the two because her doubts are outside herself and not within. I have a hard time thinking that TV Isabel would go through the akino the way that book Isabel did.

On the other hand, book Isabel is at the end of her story arc, whereas TV Isabel is not. I think and hope that we will see Isabel come to terms with "Vilandra" and her wariness of her alien identity. At that point I hope and expect to see a much stronger Isabel, one much more like the book Isabel who defied death to protect Micheal and herself from the conciousness.

Cool topic starter Anla - even if I totally chickened out of giving a straight answer!

As for Alex and Kyle (getting back to Roswellian's musings), I tend to agree with you on this Roswellian. All three, Isabel, Kyle and Alex have not let us into the workings of their mind or let us see what makes them tick.

Although, with Alex (particularly last season) we did get to see his hurt at Liz's turning away and his relationship with this band buds. We also saw his desire to be part of the pod squad group in TLV when he was modifying the camera to plant in Nesado and Tess' house. Of the three Alex seems to be the most transparent emotion-wise. I can always tell what he is thinking and it usually breaks my heart! *sigh* I think with more screen time (hint, hint PTB) we will see more of what makes Alex tick. Alex simply needs to be pulled into the group.

Isabel. Well Isabel has some real issues and I am not sure that she knows what makes her tick, but we have seen lots of confusion and even a little self hatred there. Her constant desire to be "normal" and want stuff like a boyfriend who does not know she is an alien and a perfect christmas and so on... may not make her character clear, per se, but it does help us see what she is feeling and where she is coming from. Yeah, she may confuse us, but at least we are not lacking in information. Hopefully as the second season story arc comes to a close, we will see her come to terms with the alien inside her of which "Vilandra" represents the worst side. Hopefully she will realize that this bad side does not have to surface, so she can try to learn to embrace who she is.

Kyle. Well there is no doubting whatsoever that Kyle is different in the TV show and in the books. Kyle on the TV show does seem to have some problems communicating what he feels and this could be a big problem with trying to figure out what is going on inside him. He does tend to open up to Tess and that's great, but even then he tends to talk in generalities which can be rather annoying and not as informative as it should be. Thinks like "that was really nice what you did" and "I'm having problems dealing with the whole alien thing" and so forth. Perhaps as his friendship with Tess will allow him to open up a little more and as he feels more comfortable with her, he can be more specific. I am a little worried though, because it is obvious that they are setting us up for a romantic involvement between Tess and Kyle and if that happens, then he won't have a friend to go to to talk about his frustrations with Tess. I really think that a Micheal/Kyle friendship would work wonders for helping each of them express and work out what they are feeling.

Ditto for an Alex/Max friendship and an Isabel/Tess friendship or an Isabel/Maria friendship.

Thanks for posting folks! Talk to y'all soon and I'll get to points 5 through 7 of the original musings as time conversation permits (yeah, that old threat again! ).

See you later!

Whoops, looks like we posted at the same time (more or less). Well it seems we agree. Cool! See you tomorrow!

You're right about the types of things that the Isabels are afraid of. I hadn't really considered the different types of fears they have. Book Isabel's are external, so once confronted, she can either completely break down or overcome them (she does both at different times) and then move on and become stronger. They're pretty much one-time deals. TV Isabel's fears are internal, so they're much harder to overcome. They keep coming back. The fact that she doesn't even know the whole truth about Vilandra just makes it harder. How do you overcome a fear when you barely understand it? I hope they give us some info on the fall of the royal 4 soon, that comes from an impartial source (I really don't count the Skins as impartial).

Be back later.

Hi! Actually, I'm also a little concerned about the Kyle/Tess relationship on the show. Most of the time I'm all in favor of it - Kyle deserves some happiness, maybe that would mean that Tess really is a good alien, and it would keep her away from Max so he can get back with Liz. However, can they still be friends? Friendships are in such short supply on the show these days.

I really wish they would start spreading the lines of friendship among the main characters. Kyle and Michael were hilarious in their brief scene in Surprise, bonding over Kyle's troubles with Tess in the house. And Kyle has majorly lightened up since the start of the show. No longer is he just Liz's stalker, following her around the country to find out Max's secret. These kids would find things so much easier to deal with if they would just chill a bit and open up to each other more. I know that if I had to face evil aliens who wanted to kill me and make a "boxed lunch" out of me, I would want my friends by my side. When you get right down to it, maybe the biggest differences between the characters in the books and the show are the fact that they all formed a connection in the books, not just Max and Liz. Having people who you know will love and accept you without condition does change your approach to life.

'Bye.

Or just delete the text you don't want. It's what I just did.
--Rachel

Well yeah, you can do that too. I tend to want to reply to several things at once from one post, so I do lots of cutting and pasting. But thanks, you are right. No slight intended.

Hey Binary Pairs! Cool nick and Welcome to the group! Thanks for dropping by and please don't be afraid to jump into the conversation. I promise, we don't bite!

Anla - Good point, particularly with this season. The friendships are really in danger of dividing the group, as it grows, into cliques. I wonder if the TV show, at the end of this divisive story arc, are going to have some sort of group bonding akin to the connection. In Crazy we did see that group moment on the rocks where Max said that everyone he trusted was right there in front of him. I find I am really craving, even more than Liz getting together with Max, a scene like that one this season. I miss the us against them mentality of the first season. However, I must remind myself that once the Project Clean Slate people were eliminated, there was definately more divisiveness among the group. Particularly with the Conciousness and the akino. Perhaps that is just the natural progression of the story....

Also a good point about the lack of reliable knowledge about what Max was like as a ruler. We were just discussing this on the CHADs thread. Larek seems to be a friend, so his version is more kind, but Nicholas is definately an enemy and his version is much less complimentary.... Yeah, straight answers about their past, what they are doing here and what the conflict on the home planet is would be nice.

I wonder if they will choose to go the way they went in the books. There the apparent good guys "the conciousness" were actually a force to be fought and although DuPris was truely evil, the cause he was fighting for was actually the right one. Perhaps on the TV show we will find that former life Max as a ruler was not always trying to the best for his people (out of ignorance of the true situation on his planet perhaps) and so he will need to rectify that in the end. Perhaps Max will find that ultimately he does not want to side with Larek, but with the Micheal-worshipper skins.... That would be an interesting twist that would parallel the good side/bad side confusion seen in the books.

Ah yes, the next on my endless list of rants:
5) The parents. Although we see a much stronger presence of the parents in the
books than in the show, I think that it speaks to the overall theme of both the show and the books that only one or two ever find out that aliens really do exist in Roswell.

The parents. Well seeing as this is a story about being a teenager and going through something your parents totally don't understand, it is sort of to be expected that the parents aren't in on the secret. That is why I am actually suprised that in both the books and the show, there is a parent whom they used to fear who is now a trusted friend. Perhaps this is illustrating somehow that they don't really have to do this all by themselves. That occasionally adults are useful. lol.

In fact, given the teenager-centric theme of the story, I am suprised that more time is not spent trying to keep the parents from finding out. Even in the books (though this happens less) I found myself wondering what were the parents doing. I mean when Max and then Isabel fell ill in the books, didn't thier parents notice, wouldn't they have insisted that they go to the doctor? I know this would have killed the storyline, but you know what I mean, it is just like keeping the parents from finding out is not even an issue.

Any thoughts?

My major difference between the books and the show is the fact that I like all the characters in the books (not the villians but the main characters.) I think it might be because you get a more indepth look into them then in the show.

example Michael is my favorite character in the book as apposed to the TV show where its Liz. Book Mike is just more laid back, I also like his and Max's relationship much better in the book I mean they actually seem like friends.

Another huge one my favorite couple in the books was Michael and Maria (anyone who knows me knows I am like the biggest anti-candygirl around) they were funny and angsty and I loved it. I was dying through all the books for them together (ugh and when Mike almost left in #10 I was actually screaming at the book quite scary)

I also think my least favorite character in the books is Liz, I liked her but I liked her the least. (she was cooler in the first few books) but the Adam thing just turned me away from her.... this is a *huge* difference.

Another thing the show needs a Trevor!!! I really liked his character, even though we thought he was a traitor at first (I always had a feeling he would come through in the end.) He was so cute with Maria at the party (now that's what I call a jealous Michael) he's relationship with Mike is great I think Michael needed someone close to him in the books since Max just Non-Max for half the series. And his interactions with Isabel were great I really wish he would have stayed to pursue the relationship but I guess he had his duties... I just think he's the kinda character who could help the show with the rocky relation(friend)ships.

Also I see a slight comparisson between DuPris and Nikolas/Lonnie. All three have that I'll do what I want and no one can stand in the my way. All seem to be very power hungry (also Nikolas and DuPris have that thing where they can control people's minds or can Nikolas just rape them.) DuPris and Lonnie compare because they were both able to fake out a character into trusting them Lonnie/Max(maybe Tess but I think she was just following Max) DuPris/Trevor. I think they both thought this character should be trusted and would help them out in the end thankfully both of them came to their senses.

I also like the whole if the humans and aliens connect they are much stronger. We don't really see that in the show (besides Liz and Isabel MITC) I really think it would give the humans a more domainate role, instead of making them all "changed"

Okay if I think of more I'll come back

alien

Aphid That would be great. Anything to get them all talking again. True, in season 1 Max kept secrets from the others, mostly in order to keep Michael from doing anything stupid, but at least he had Liz to talk to. So much pain could be avoided if they would just confide in each other. Where's the trust? These kids have lied for each other, broken into private property for each other, avoided the police, risked capture or death by shape-shifting aliens, carried one of their own (in a cocoon no less) to an Indian reservation for healing, and even given blood for each other, but all they do this season is fight and hide things. I was shocked when Michael took Maria to see the Granolith. Someone was actually sharing important information? Maybe the show is getting back to that. In the books, they couldn't really lie to each other, not about the important stuff. They knew each other too well. One of the scenes that has stayed in my head the most vividly from the books was the one when they are trying to break DuPris's control over them. Maria makes the connection to Michael, they get free, and then connect with the others. I remember Alex's thoughts about Isabel. They had just had their unpleasant break-up, but in the connection he could love and appreciate the essential Isabel without all of their mutual garbage getting in the way (not an exact quote, but pretty close). If Max connected with Isabel, I'm pretty sure that he would see that the whole Vilandra point is moot. Isabel would never betray him now. Of course, the show does have him tell her that he doesn't care about Vilandra, that he loves her and that's all that matters, but the way they've all been behaving emotionally lately, I'm not totally confident that attitude will last very long.

That is such a good point. I hadn't even made the jump between what Liz and Isabel did in MITC with the connections the seven formed in the books. I guess I was too busy dealing with the fact that the writers were actually answering the "Is Liz changed?" question that everyone was wondering about so much. Now, it would have explained things so much more easily (in my own opinion, at least) if it had just been Liz and Isabel combining their energy to make themselves stronger, rather that Liz being changed by Max bringing her back from the dead. Now we have to wonder in Kyle was changed, too, and what about the kids in the hospital? I always figured Liz was changed because of the visions she had, but I thought it was because of the reverse connection. Oh, well, maybe Ava just didn't explain it well. Really good idea, though.

The show getting another alien? But yes, I loved the way that Trevor fit into the Micheal/Maria/Isabel dynamic. I also like that Isabel did not end up with Alex, that suprised me, but it made sense. However I am not sure that Trevor in the TV show would be able to serve the same function that he did in the books. The whole destiny thing puts a different spin on the Isabel/Micheal relationship and I think that throwing another alien in the mix might make things really complicated. On the other hand, Micheal really does need a friend and Isabel with Alex still doesn't seem right in the show. Okay, so I don't know what I think!

Oh, btw... I love your sig line!

Anla - I do think that a mass group bonding would be wonderful. On the other hand. I think things between Max and Isabel are more or less patched up. I never really thought that Max ever had a problem with Isabel's "Vilandra" past. The only thing he had a problem with is that she didn't tell him, which I knew was stupid from the moment she chickened out at the end of Suprise. In this next episode, I would not be suprised if we see Isabel and Max are close, but it is Micheal that needs to be brought into the fold. IMHO.

Both you guys - I too love the idea that at least Liz can boost the powers of the aliens. On the other hand, the humans are also able to help heal people with the healing stone (like in the balence). After watching Ask Not, that is something that I wondered. Why didn't Micheal (after being saved by humans and the healing stones himself) not invite Liz, Maria and Alex to the chamber to try to help heal Nasedo? You would think that the more the merrier....

I think a common theme throughout the books and the TV show is that they are stronger together than they are apart and I think that, even in the TV show, we will see that this includes the humans (eventually). For all the misgivings I had about So47, I did like that at the end, Micheal realized that he needed human help. Now if we can only convince Max of the same thing....

Anla - On the CHADs thread we saw a piece of cut dialogue where Ava reveals that Liz was changed because Max took her back across the threashold between life and death. The kids, because they were not in the process of dying (yeah they were terminal, but they weren't minutes from death) would not be changed, but I do firmly believe that Kyle has been changed. In fact, Kyle even says so when he comes back from football camp. Yeah, he means that he is just majorly weirded out, but perhaps he is picking up on the fact that he also may have powers. It is my secret and deepest desire to see Kyle develop powers and help Tess control her firestarter powers.... but again I digress!

Hehehe... Night all!

Anla -- you described my favorite scene as well, the group connection that they make at DuPris's. I can't tell you how much I like the theme of the group being stronger than the individuals. It's one that needs to be focused on more in the show. My favorite shows, such as Buffy, Angel, even the X-Files, really take this theme to heart, and show how a community of friends can become a family, and even more than that.

I think that the excessive focus of the show on developing various romantic relationships has substituted for developing friendship bonds. The books, while having romance as well, downplayed the romantic tensions, I think. M&M are only briefly together for part of book 3, and then I hear they reunite in book 10. The Michael-Courtney thing never progresses beyond a few kisses. Isabel and Alex have about 1 1/2 books together. Basically, despite all the musical couples, romances are not a major focus, and I think the story benefits from that overall. Of course, I've been a big believer since Season 1 that this show shouldn't be 50/50 split between romance and sci fi, but a 50/50 split between the various human interactions and the sci fi mythology.

OK, posted longer than I meant to. Night all!

I do see Liz as being very much the same but for some reason I just ddin't like her as much in the book, it might have been the whole Adam thing Im not sure. I do wish they would make Liz as sciency as she is in the book as she is in the series. I mean the show kinda brushes of her inner geek (like in "Skin and Bones" when she said Im not a dork I just like science) I just get the feeling the show doesn't want to show just how smart Liz is sometimes.

Oh and yes I know another alien... I don't think he has to help the Michael/Isabel relationship (I mean sooner or later one of them is going to finally give in) I think he could help the Max/Michael relationship. I mean the constant arguing between them I just think a character like Trevor could help it.... of course their is the destiny thing with Max being the leader.... but it's just a constant power struggle no one seems to be able to control either one of them I just thought Trevor could... oh well wishful thinking

Oh and thanks for the compliment on the sig (Im a cliffie what can I say it makes me a crackhead)

quote:The Roswellian-
alien_lover, that's a great point about liking all the characters. For me, it's a bit in reverse, as you know. My two least favorites of the main cast are Liz and Isabel, and I really like them so much more in the book. But the nice thing about the books is that sufficient time is spent in developing each character, and more importantly, in showing how they fit into the group dynamic. And since you admitted you like M&M in the book, I'll admit that I really liked Max and Liz in the books Plus, I loved the relationship between Michael and Isabel. I was very moved by the scenes when Michael is nursing Is through her akino. I thought the love between them was wonderful

Oh I loved the akino scenes with Mike and Iz and Max and Liz, it kinda reminded me of the Balance but I thought it was really strong in the books. Alright anyway see the thing for me and why I like Liz so much is because she was the most well develped character (I really liked seeing things through her eyes with her journal) but for the other characters the didn't do it as much. Michael we got to see some of him in ID4 (which was awesome by the way) Max in Toy House (probably more but I can't think of any.) Im sure the others were develped more but I never got the same reaction. It is also harder to do it in the show then in the books (words are just more meaningful then pictures sometimes) of course a major difference is that the books had one writer the show has about 10 (approx.) so everyone has a different view (if I ran the writing staff it would be all JK Ron M. is okay to he can do sci-fi without making my head spin) So that always decreases good character develpement.

The book just makes me like the characters more (yes even Alex and Maria) you just feel like you know them better.

alien

Aphid I really hope you're right about Max and Isabel getting close again. I've been seriously worried about the boy this year. In my opinion, Max has been suffering through quite a bit of post-traumatic-stress (which only makes sense - he's been kidnapped, tortured, learned he's the king of another planet, and still has to go to high school - which is stressful enough ). Everybody he's relied on has been distanced from him, either by his actions, theirs, or both. The only one who he has been actively turning to for support is Tess, and I'm not sure that's such a good idea. I don't think she's necessarily evil anymore (although you should have heard me ranting about her at the end of Destiny), but she doesn't have the history with Max, at least in this lifetime, to help him very much. Plus, she is rather fixated on the alien part of the problem, not the human, although that might be changing, now that she is exposed to the Valenti influence, and not Nacedo's.

I agree totally that Max and Michael need to become closer. I'm sure that they were in their past life - Former-Max trusted former-Michael to be his second, and Courtney says former-Michael wouldn't betray him. I wonder what will help facilitate that reconciliation, though. I think it would have to be something pretty major, maybe one of the gang being seriously hurt or endangered.

In the books, the aliens learned early on how much they needed the help of the humans. Together they were so much stronger than they were apart. I agree that Michael has learned this lesson (finally!), and that Max needs to as well. Max is such a control freak, though (not a criticism of Max - I love him, but he does want to keep everything under his control in order to keep things safe and "normal"). When will he learn that being the leader doesn't mean he has to carry everything on his own?

sinny - Yes, I noticed that book Maria's description was similar to Tess's. If Tess starts jumping around and giggling, though, I think I'll scream and run away from the tv.

Roswellian - I liked Liz more in the books than on the show, too. I don't dislike Liz on the show, mind you, but the books made her more accessible to me. After the group connection, the subplot I most wish they had used on the show was the story about Liz's sister. The relationship between Liz and her parents always struck me as a little off on the show. I can't really put my finger on it, but there always seems to be something strange going on there. I sensed so much tension between Liz and her mother in Leaving Normal and Sexual Healing. I tried telling myself that it was just normal mother/teen daughter stuff. I certainly fought enough with my mom when I was younger. But what was up with Liz's father instantly jumping to the conclusion that Maria was giving Liz drugs in Into the Woods? It looked wierd, sure, buy why not just jump in and ask what was going on when he saw it? I mean Liz is pretty much the perfect little daughter, he's known Maria forever, and he knows she's a health freak. After reading the books, I thought "That explains everything". Of course, her father is concerned about Liz taking drugs. Of course, Liz is always trying to keep control of her life. Of course, Liz is unwilling to allow any of the people around her to be hurt. Of course, there's strain in her relationship with her parents. I thought the books really played out the scenario so well, including Liz's "I'm not Rosa" speech, and her making up with her father. Too bad the show hasn't included it, and I think it's a little late to invent a sister for Liz now (although Buffy managed it )

Well, I think I have taken up enough space and your time for now, so I'm gone. 'Bye.

You and Anla are right. As book Maria is described, she looks a lot like Tess. However, Tess sure isn't the bubbly earth-child that Maria is. Very different personalities....

Roswellian - I also love the idea so emphasized in the books that the group is stronger than the individuals in it, because of the differences in the individuals within it. I don't doubt that the TV show is going in the same direction (eventually) but I really want them to get around to it at some point! I was worried that the humans were not going to be included in that unity, but So47 (well at least the end) does give me hope that perhaps I don't need to be.

I agree with you though that the friendships (at least those outside of the romantic relationships) do not seem to be focus of the TV show. At least not yet. I find that I must constantly remind myself that the TV show has not finished telling us it's story. Here's to hoping that friendship is seen on the show as not only the foundation of a good romantic relationship, but as a necessary part of working together.

Man, I soooo want to see some real friendship relationship repair outside of the romantic couples. Now. Here that TPTB?

Old Candyfan - Welcome to the thread! I never noticed that Micheal's powers are stronger when humans are close or connected to him, but it does seem to be true at least part of the time. I wonder if this is the reason that Isabel was not able to defeat CWW until the rest of the crew showed up. Yeah, she fended her off Tess and the rest of the gang didn't really do anything, but they were there and willing. Kind of like how Liz and Maria bring out the best leader in Max by giving him advice and information, even if they don't know what is going on (Maria in Ask Not and Liz in Meet the Dupes/Max in the City among others). Cool.

Alien Lover - Actually I though that the TV show made more of Liz's science side than the books. Yes Liz isn't exactly proud of it (she feels it makes her a geek), but she shows a proficient knowledge of it and never fails to offer it up to help her friends whenever she can. Which tends to be more often in the show than in the books. IMHO.

I am with you on Micheal/Isabel eventually giving in to cliffie love. You are right that perhaps another alien might help smooth over that relationship. Actually I kinda thought that either Kyle or Alex might be able to do that as well. Kyle befreinds Micheal, Alex befriends Max and the two of them act as sounding boards and confidants who help them see reason when it comes to fixing this brother-like relationship that has lasted for years. However, an alien could do that too. But I must admit the humans can kinda make that whole destiny leader thing moot. I mean aliens might feel beholden and inferior when faced with their king, but humans like Kyle, Alex, Maria and Liz don't because they just know Max as Max and never were, never will be his subjects. Does that make sense?

I agree that the Akino scenes were great bonding moments and thinking about it, I think that was because we saw one of them suffering terribly, fighting valiently, yet losing and needing the other's help. I found this same kind of intimacy in the scenes where Alex is talking to Isabel through her door. In the show, we have seen some friend to the rescue scenes, but they tend to be in ways that are much less personal and concious. The team coming to break Max out of the White Room and Isabel's connection with him, were help when he needed it, but I didn't feel the intimate connection that I did in the book scenes mentioned above. Same with the scene in MitC when Liz saves Max from Lonnie and Rath. I think the closest to that type of intimacy that I have seen on the show is when Max takes Tess home to Roswell after her final encoutner with Lonnie and Rath and when Micheal seeks Maria out at the end of Independance Day. In both of those situations we saw a fighter totally tapped, and forced to lean on the comfort of a friend. I would love to see more of that. Even better if it were occasionally platonic....

Anla - I must agree that I think having one or more of the gang in serious danger may be what it takes to get everyone to chip in together and start to be open, trust each other and mend fences. Hopefully the groundwork needed to make this possible when the crisis occurs will be laid in beforehand with a few good bonding moments amongst freind pairs or groups. I want them to have some sort of friendship basis going into the fight, rather than have the fight be a huge cure it all for their friendship woes.

In this way I think we can see some examples of this in the books. When Max and Isabel are at odds over Nikolas, it is Micheal who Isabel turns to and for comfort and understanding. Granted it is not successful because Micheal thinks the same way about Nikolas as Max does, but that friendship is there as a second buffer to keep Max and Isabel from drifting too far away.

I would love to see two or more key non-romantic couple friendships developed that can help smooth over the bumps and keep this group from falling apart in a crisis.... Man that's been the mantra of this post hasn't it?

Friendship, friendship, friendship, friendship is good. Friendship, friendship, friendship, friendship is good. Friendship, friendship, friendship, friendship is good. Friendship, friendship, friendship, friendship is good. Get. It. PTB?

Okay, enough of that!

Now onto point 6 of my big obcessions:
6) Book Valenti and Pierce. Wow, can we say sadistic? Gotta love those evil folks. I think it was great to see the Valenti in the TV show do a complete 180 and become an ally, but you still have to have bad guys out there and Pierce fit the bill in many of the same ways that Valenti did in the books.

Yep, one unredeamable villian is absolutely necessary to big mythological stories such as these and Book Valenti and Pierce both fit the bill. I do notice that each of these folks represent the human source of threat and danger which, though formidible, is not basically dust.

That is why I didn't really want to compare Peirce to DuPris. I think and hope that the alien villian that will be DuPris' equivelent is either Kvar or some alien villian that we have yet to encounter.

In both the book and the TV show, I sense that the human threat is inconsequential in the grand scheme of things, it is the aliens (possibly thier own species) that our pod squad must fear most.

I am also excited and intregued by the fact that the war on P-SAWN (the podster's home planet) seems to be more than black and white. With the introduction of the rebel, Micheal-worshipper skins and the other ruling families of the neighboring planets, I think that we might find the podsters questioning who is right and who is wrong. I think I have brought that up before, now that I have typed it, but oh well. If I have, then just ignore it.

Either way, I think we have yet to see the entire cast of evil characters on the TV series and I am hopeful that we have some morally complicated villian issues yet to face, just as we did in the books with DuPris, an utterly dispicable entity with a good cause. Who'd a thunk it?

That's it for tonight. Thanks for all the comments folks!

In the book,the wierd thing is that Liz is Mexican and Max has blond hair.But if you think about it. They all live in Mexico. On the show one of the characters should have been spanish.

The Michael in the book kind of freaked me out at first because he was too nice and happy. I was so used to the "mysterious Michael" but i got used to it.

The fact that they can see each others auras is really cool. I really like that. But i really didn't like that collective consciousness.

The one thing that really bothered me was the fact that the aliens saved everybody all the time. In the show, Max saves Liz and Kyle. In the book, everybody is dying and the p-squad is always saving them. So its not like Liz is special anymore.

Its Also cool, in the book when they get into that circle and hold each others hands. They start to see images, hear music and smell scents.

Over all i think the show and the book equally compare. It was hard to keep up with both since i started reading the books in the beginning of the second season. But when i read the book i just pictured the characters in the show in my mind.

The animosity is of a different nature in S2, as they both turn their frustrations about Destiny onto each other. But I really think that the basic love and trust is still there -- just like we saw in ARCC, standalone or not.

What these two really need is just an opportunity to talk. To each get their fears out in the open, acknowledge them, and move on. IMO, that would solve a lot of the difficulties. I don't think a friend in trouble would lead to that kind of honesty, since it would just exacerbate the fears that have driven the wedge between them. What would probably do it is a storyline where the two of them are trapped together somewhere -- lock those guys in a room or something!

OK, I've finally read Book 10 (thanks Aphid!), and have a couple of comments to make:

First of all, it was obvious reading this last book that it had been written after the series had aired. Michael winds up being halfway between book Michael and tv Michael, and it's a little jarring. His speech, his mannerisms, even the way he doesn't tell anyone he's leaving the planet (?!?) are much more tv Michael than we've seen before. And M&L as well, have more of that undying soulmate tv love in this book, than we've seen before.

The real point I wanted to make, though, was how different book Isabel is from tv Isabel. Originally, I would have said she is one of the characters that was fairly similar, but now having read the entire series, I would say she's radically different. In the tv show, the Ice Princess thing is truly a facade. She maintains it to keep people at a distance, to keep up the pretense of normalcy, but you get the feeling that if she were just a normal human girl, that she would be very maternal, nurturing person.

In the books, though, Ice Princess Isabel is very real. The way she feels entitled to male attention, her going into men's dreams to seduce her way to Prom Queen, her harsh breakups with Alex, on TWO separate occassions, when something better comes along, her treatment of Maria when she decides to go after Michael -- Izzy, for all her good qualities, really does have an overwhelming sense of entitlement and a real selfish streak.

That said, her character development through the series is probably the most profound. I think the trigger is Alex's disappearance. Isabel seems to mellow, to soften, to appreciate how lucky she is to have the people in her life, to worry more about what she can give them. Her scenes of pure friendship with Alex at the end were some of my favorite.

alien_lover - I actually like Liz much better in the books. I'm not sure why, but I tend to go back and forth with Liz in the show. Some episodes I really like her, and others I just want her off the screen quickly. That might actually be a credit to the complexities of the character, though. After all, we don't always want to be around real-life people, either do we? Sometimes they get on our nerves. But the Adam situation in the books didn't really bother me much. At first, I was reluctant to accept Adam, mostly because of the whole rabbit-blasting incident and then turning Valenti into a pile of dust. That made me a bit nervous. Once we understood what was behind all that, I really grew to like Adam as a character. His child-like enthusiasm was so adorable, but deep down he had some basic wisdom. His advice to Liz about the situation with her father was surprisingly insightful for someone who referred to himself as "mole boy". I didn't really ever want Liz with Adam, but since Max was pretty much catatonic-boy at that point, while ignoring everybody's concerns regarding the consciousness, I could understand why Liz would be tempted elsewhere. But she found her way back to Max at the end.

And I totally agree with you about the consistency shown in the books as compared to the show. It really helps when there is one creative force guiding a project, it gives it direction. Throughout the books, I always felt that the writer had an idea of where it was going. There were no meandering plots, or inconsistencies which had to be explained away. I felt that way about the show up until Crazy. I remember one thing which really impressed me about the show. In 285 South, we see Kyle following Liz and the gang all the way down 285 South. My first viewing, I was like "How did he know where they were going?" Then I rewatched the episode, and saw that he was standing close enough to the jeep when Isabel told Max that Michael was taking Maria down 285 South. So that question was answered. Then, the show had to switch direction and speed up the storyline, and there are so many more unanswered questions. sigh. Hopefully, they will explain more as time goes by.

old_candyfan - You are so right about Michael's powers being stronger when someone believes in him. Let's face it, Michael went his whole life being angry and without anyone to believe in him. Max certainly doesn't, and while Isabel supports him to a large extent, she also doesn't think much of his ability to create plans or control his powers (think of Michael's attempt to break into Valenti's office). I'm not saying they don't have good reason for their attitudes, but there it is. But, with Maria and RiverDog starting to believe in him, he can see visions from the key and heal RiverDog's ankle. With Nascedo's belief in his abilities (although not necessarily positive encouragement), Michael can learn to change his fingerprints. And with Tess's cheerleading, Michael learns how to blow up rocks. The support of others helps Michael at least with his powers.

Aphid, back to the friendships (like this post ever really leaves that topic ). In the books, the sub-groups were more interchangable. It wasn't always Max & Liz doing something, while Michael & Maria were doing something else, and who knew what Isabel & Alex were doing (or where Alex was for that matter, but that's another rant). You would see Michael and Alex joking around, or Max introducing Adam to the wonders of daytime television, or Liz and Maria taking Isabel to the mall to deal with the trauma of Nikolas's death (I loved the whole fristers thing). I was starting to get hopeful about this at the start of this season. The growing friendship between Maria and Max was encouraging, as was the fact that Maria was the one who went with Isabel in search of Tess.

I also really liked the group connection scene in the first book, and the later group connection when they are fighting DuPris (I think that was book 9). The descriptions of all the scents, notes and auras were cool and very telling of each character. I also like how Isabel was attracted to the music because she recognized it from dreamwalking and Maria tuned in on the smells because she was really into aromatherapy and so on, with each part of the experience being important to each of them in different ways. That was really awsome.

The Roswellian - I actually agree with you. I don't think that another alien or person (particularly not with a name beginning with "M" I totally agree!) is absolutely necessary, but I do think that another person might help the writers show us some of the process of the transformation. On the other hand, I would also be happy if we just got the "Max and Micheal are finally forced to talk to each other and hash this out" version. Just as long as it's more substancial than: "oh no, that's not what I meant, suddenly everything is fine".

I totally agree with what you said about Isabel, I never really realized it, but you are right, there is much more confidence and entitlement in Book Isabel than in TV Isabel (particularly this season). I so agree with you that I've really nothing to add (well that's a first! ).

Anla - Actually there is a "friendshipper" thread to discuss the friendships in Roswell, but you are totally right, just that one against a multitude of romatic shipper threads and most of those threads are busier than the friendshipper thread besides. You can follow this link to it (or use the search engine, just search friendshipper in subject title):

http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/004357.html

I still have hope that we will see the friendships return to season 1 force by the end of the 2nd season, but I must admit I am with you in that I grow impatient.

Good point about how quickly the Micheal/Maria relationship started in the TV show, though I am not sure that M/L were that much slower in the book. In the show Max may have fallen in love with her in 3rd grade, but he was just her friend. I got the feeling that it played out more or less that way in the books. After all, in the book Max does remark that he has always loved her, he simply admitted it to himself when he healed Liz (I recently reread book 1). Oh yeah, and it will be hard, but my cliffie heart will forgive you... eventually! Just joking! No worries, this is a shipper neutral thread.

I must admit that my take on the Adam situation was really tainted by the TV show. I simply thought that is was really good that Liz was facing the truth and moving on. Yes she loved Max, but when the person she loved dissappeared she moved on. Actually, now that I think of it, it's not that different from the show is it. It's Max in the show that can't move on. Liz is trying, though it's hard with the Max she loves still there.... Okay, nevermind!

That is such a good point about the fact that there were more inter-friendships in the book. I really miss the Alex/Micheal frienship from the book, but I hold out hopes that perhaps a Micheal/Kyle frienship might be just as good (should that develop). I also miss the Maria/Isabel friendship (though that was not mentioned as often in the later books as I thought it might be). Perhaps a Maria/Isabel frienship will develop later or a Tess/Isabel frienship. Goodness knows Tess needs a girlfriend. Wouldn't it be cool if it ended up being Liz? Hehehe... well I would want to see how that comes about! I was also impressed with Suprise, but more on a Tess/Isabel level. I really wanted that guilt of Isabel's (that she mentions) to spurn her into pulling Tess back into the fold. Then the whole Vilandra thing happened instead... *sigh* But there is still time! Okay, Vilandra's history, now let's get some girlfriends!

Okay, that's it for me tonight!
You can tell I'm tired when I get smilie-happy....

Edited to add the frienshipper thread link

I also though Book Valenti and Pierce were very similar in their straight-forward evilness. We never learned either of their motivations. I'm looking forward to meeting Kavar and learning more about the battle on the home planet. I'm hoping for some more ambiguous moral decisions - that the Podsters will actually have to make some decisions about what they believe in and want to stand for. I have a nagging suspicion that maybe they weren't quite as admirable characters in their previous lives, just from little hints that have been dropped, but I'm withholding judgment since most of our info has come from Skins (not exactly the most reliable source). I was impressed by the "grayness" of the fight with the home planet in the books. It was pretty deep for a young adult novel. While the group, except Max, agreed with DuPris's goal, they obviously could not condone his methods. Everyone, do you think DuPris was always a pyscho, or do you think he started off more like Trevor and then snapped along the way?

Compared to Pierce, TV Valenti is a very complicated character (in my opinion). Even when he was hunting Max through the first part of season one, the audience understood why. He wanted to both avenge his father's reputation and protect the people of Roswell. You can actually see the moment when Valenti's attitude towards Max starts to change in the Convention. When Max starts yelling at Valenti ("You're supposed to be protecting me" or something like that) and accusing him of sending Hubble after him, you can see how guilty Valenti feels. After that, you can see that Valenti comes to accept Max as one of the population he is sworn to protect. I was really upset that they didn't reshow that episode here during summer repeats. For one thing, that meant I couldn't get it on tape , and for another, that meant people who started watching the show over the summer missed one of the pivotal episodes. They must have been wondering why Valenti was suddenly trying to help the Pod Squad rather than arrest them.

roswellian00 - I totally agree with you that books are better in the way they allow us to understand the characters - to get inside their minds. Although I never wonder if Michael loves Maria on the show (of course he does ), it's always nice to be able to "hear" a character's thoughts and understand more fully their motivations. Personally, I think they should have kept Liz as Hispanic for the show. I've never understood why they didn't. I can see the same actress playing her, and it would add some ethnic authenticity to the show. After all, they're in New Mexico, right next to an Indian reservation, and there are no minorities among the major characters. And how long has it been since we've seen Deputy Owens, River Dog, or Eddie?

Roswellian - You know, I think you're right about Book Michael becoming more like TV Michael as the series went on. In the early books, I couldn't imagine Brendan Fehr saying Michael's lines. By book 9, I could. Of course, one of TV Michael's most fundamental character traits is his anger, and Book Michael certainly had plenty to be angry about towards the end. His best friend was in a coma, the brother he had dreamed about his whole life had lied to him and gone over to the dark side, and he had absolutely no idea what to do regarding his relationship with Maria. That would be enough to make anyone grumpy.

I love this! I'm going to have to start using it myself. DH is gonna say, "exposition stick?" And then he'll start using it himself.

Sort of like on the Gilmour Girls Christmas Special commercial when the mom (?) says in that fond tone, "Awww! You look like someone hit you with the pretty stick!"

Hooray for shipper-neutral threads!

The Pierce/DuPris question -- well, I think that they both are pursuing what they believe to be the "right" path. DuPris wants to collapse the consciousness, Pierce believes he's saving his planet from alien colonization. But both are not only ruthless in their quest to accomplish their goal, but they also take enjoyment in using that goal to inflict as much pain as possible on others. So there's a real question as to how much their respective quests provide them with the rationalization for their sadistic tendencies, or how much they've been twisted over the years by their single-mindedness. To be honest, I just don't know.

Here's something that I was thinking about, with respect to the "Brendan Fehr delivering book Michael's lines." What I find strange about the book/tv characters is that in actual age, the actors are closer to the 18 year old book characters, yet the book characters still seem much younger than their tv counterparts.

The tv show characters started off as 16 in the Pilot, and yet I think because of the older actors playing them, have always struck me as much older, closer to 19 or 20.

Yet the book characters just act so much younger, as if they were 15 or 16. The innocence in Michael has been much commented on. It's hard to imagine BF telling gross out jokes with Alex in the pizza parlor, or Majandra jumping on her bed and giggling to herself. These are characters that bond by watching late night horror flicks, and to whom an innocent kiss is a big event in their lives. I have a hard time picturing book Maria and Michael reenacting Heatwave, just as I can't see BF romping in the waves with his brother.

Okay, back to the topic. Roswellian - I agree with you about Isabel maturing as the books went on. I loved the last scene of book 10, where it had Alex and Isabel talking about how much she had changed since everything started. She learned to appreciate how much she needed all of her "family", and how to put their needs before her own. I almost cried when she was writing that letter to Alex when he was missing - the line about knowing that they needed to be important somehow in each other's lives. Learning that loving someone is not necessarily the same as being in love with them is a hard lesson to learn at any age, especially when you're a teen. And Alex's feelings for Isabel evolved too. He went from this awkward unpopular kid with an "Isabel shrine" in his mind, obsessing and remembering every superficial detail about her he saw, to someone who could recognize and appreciate the fundamental person she was beneath it all. I loved how Alex sat outside her door while she was having her little post-Nikolas break-down, but I think my defining Alex moment came when he and Isabel were working together trying to get Michale out of the army compound. Isabel was hurt and reverted to her grey alien self. Alex was about to panic, but then he thought to himself something along the lines of "This is just Isabel. Maintain." He stayed calm, picked her up, and got her to safety. The surface appearance of Isabel wasn't what mattered to him. We saw an echo of this on the tv show in the dream scene when Alex told Isabel that he was sure underneath her beautiful exterior there was an even more beautiful interior. I don't think the tv couple have quite gotten to that point of complete acceptance yet, but there's still time. TV Alex and Isabel are moving along their relationship at a much slower pace than the book couple did (I believe the term Alex used was glacial ). By the way, I like to think that someday in the future, Book Alex and Isabel do get back together, but even if they don't ever reconnect as a couple, you know that they will still love each other and be a part of each other's lives.

Aphid - Yes, you're right about Maria and Isabel's friendship not being shown as much in the later books. Of course, I think that probably had a lot to do with their both being interested in Michael. If only they had asked Michael about that dream they saw before he was captured! Maybe that could have saved them all some stress in their friendships. Still, they were still friends, and once they worked out that whole situation, they could get back to being fristers. I absolutely loved the whole marshmallow fight scene. Maria and Isabel ganging up on Michael! Too funny! It's the moments like that I wish could be translated on the screen. Well, they did have Alex do a strip-tease, something which I could have imagined book Alex doing much more easily than tv Alex, and it worked well enough. Very funny, so maybe there will be some lighter moments in the future.

Roswellian - I agree, the book characters seem so much younger than the tv ones. From my experiences in high school, the book characters are truer to life. Of course, I didn't have to grow up extra quick because of evil aliens trying to kill me, send all my family and friends to another time zone (sorry, make that three different time zones all at once - I never did understand Courtney's explanation ), and destroy the planet. It's a shame, but they seem to be losing what's left of their childhood to those stressors. Plus, this is a tv show on the WB, so the characters have to dress as provocatively as possible in order to attract the young teen viewers. Sigh. Has everyone else noticed how their wardrobes have changed dramatically from last season to this? Not that I can complain about shirtless Max running around, but at times it all seems a bit superfluous, not to mention obvious.

Does anyone know why they decided to change Liz's last name from Ortecho to Parker? This has really been bugging me ever since I started reading the books. Oh, and on the subject of names, where did Michael get his last name from? Did they ever say? I would have thought that maybe it was Hank's last name, but Michael in the books goes from foster home to foster home, so I doubt he was with any of them long enough to pick up a name. Just wondering.

Yeah they were going to make it Ortecho and have a spainish actress play Liz but they though Shiri fit the part very well and she had excellent chemistry with Jason so they made it Parker since Shiri doesn't look Mexican

alien

alien

Thanks. I don't feel quite so badly about it if there was an actual reason, and not just an example of a show trying to get rid of a minority character. I still think they could have kept it though.

Oh, I forgot last time: Aphid - Thanks for pointing out the Friendshippers thread. I didn't realize it was about the friendships on the show. I've seen the thread, but thought it was about something else. I'll have to give it a try one of these days.

Roswellian I keep trying to picture Brendan Fehr's Michael "romping in the waves", and I can't do it. I would love to see it on the show, but I can not picture it in my mind at all!

One thing that struck me was that there was a scene with Liz and another guy looking at each other in a tender (almost pitying) way and Max shown between and behind them, but not looking at them. As if he were distracted and/or out of it. This gave me major flashbacks to the whole Adam/Liz/Max/conciousness plot and I am interested to see if we are going to find that Max has, for some reason, stopped paying attention to Liz, so she turns to a stranger for comfort. Hmmm..... It just got me thinking.

But now to reply to you guys' posts:

Anla - I think that DuPris was probably always pretty ruthless and power hungry, but was an effective leader when the rebel movement needed him. Some folks who like power seek out legitimate government and some don't.... I would love to see Kvar and discover whether he has similar ruthless practices and control issues ( ).

I guess I would go with Roswellian's first option as to explain his and Pierce's behavior. I get the feeling that although their postions may have enhanced what sadistic tendancies are lurking within them, I tend to think that they sought out positions where they could justify being sadistic. Now, I don't think that either of them sprung from the womb screaming kill them all, but then again, I would not be suprised if they were the teenagers who shot birds and cats with bbguns.... I really don't picture them as Trevors in their youth.

I was a summer repeat girl (I didn't watch Roswell first season because it was opposite the West Wing), so I didn't see the Convention. I have read a transcript of the show, but that's really not the same.... However I do remember seeing a big evolution in Valenti's attitude, though I don't remember the exact episode, as a result of finding out that Topolski was murdered. I must admit that I am impressed at the gradual way in which Valenti's conversion from enemy to friend was accomplished. It gave everyone time to rethink their feelings without giving the viewing audience whiplash. A nice touch.

PepperjackCandy - Welcome! I am thrilled to see you in this neck of the woods!

I love Gilmore Girls and Anla's "exposition stick" like gave me Christmas episode flashbacks too. Cool Anla!

And yep, shipper-neutral is the only way to go. Word on that one.

Roswellian - I agree that the book characters do seem to act younger than the TV characters and I have really yet to figure out exactly what gives me this impression. I think it is a combination of doing more "normal" teenagery stuff and, as you said about Micheal, I kind of extend to all of them. They all (in general) seem more innocent than thier TV counterparts. Though I must admit that this may be destiny-related. Being royalty and the saviors of your planet is a very different thing to wrap your mind around than just being abandoned and orphaned in a crash. On the other hand, that may also simply be the result of it being a TV show. I must admit that there are precious few shows where I really see teens act like teens in that way. Does that make any sense?

Anla - I loved your thoughts on Alex and Isabel, so much so that I really have nothing to add - I know, don't faint from shock... Except that (well you knew it was coming) I saw Melinda post either here or on the "Are the books...." thread that she liked to think that maybe Alex and Isabel got together later in life, like in college. So you are in good company with that thought.

I totally agree that the marshmellow scene was great for the Maria/Micheal/Isabel relationship in that it showed that even for all of the triangle romance stuff going on, Isabel and Maria were still friends deep down. It was a great friendship scene and a really cathartic laughfest relief that I think they could all use at this point in the TV series. Perhaps later....

I don't know about how Book Micheal got his last name, but it seemed like TV Micheal had been with Hank for quite some time (perhaps ever since he was found), so I assumed that Guerin was Hank's last name. I wonder if Book Micheal's last name was simply the one of the first foster family he was with. Or perhaps it was just assigned to him by social services.

Alien Lover - First of all, I want to officially thank you for the silverhandprint smilie. I've been using it all over the place and I believe I stole it from one of your posts originally. So thanks!

I can see why the producers might have thought that Liz looked too caucasian to be hispanic (at least full-blood) but I would have loved to see them keep Book Liz's extended family structure and ethnic heritage, perhaps by having her mother be caucasion and father hispanic (explaining why Liz doesn't look too hispanic). After all, she has coloring that could pass for mixed blood. I'd buy that!

NP about the frienshippers link. See what you think. Folks tend to be less verbose there, though sometimes that might be a good thing!

See ya folks later!

You know I was beginning to think the samething I had looked at the picture and thought "What is Max doing is he on drugs or something" like he's lost his mind which made me think of the book.

Someone said that the guy might be Alex and the reason he's buff is from Sweden or whatever (which also made me think of when Alex went in the wormhole and came out more attractive) but I still don't think it's Alex, Liz looked a little *too* friendly with him if you know what I mean... and I think you do.

Oh and thanks for that frame by frame thing on the CHADS thread (I just checked it out)I never even noticed that scene with Liz on someone's lap until you mentioned it.

I don't really mind the ethnic thing with Liz although I think they should have at least one hispanic since ya know they live in New Mexico. What I would like is if they had kept the Rosa story, that was something I really liked.

alien

First to Anla and Aphid, I don't know where
Michael got his last name, probably from social services, however in the credits in a
couple of reviews I saw Hank's last name is
Whitmore.

One thing no that I have seen has mentioned the sleep question. In the tv show the podsters seem to require the normal amount of sleep, although they are always staying up
late "Studying." In the books they were able to be out at all hours of the night since they only required two hours of sleep. Thus Isabel knowing every late night infomercial by heart and Michael unable to adjust to the ten o'clock bedtime at the Pascal's. (By the way can anyone imagine BF living in the Pascal's house and babysitting the younger kids? Or even trying to follow the Pascal
Rascals rules?)

About the preview . . . the guy is not Alex. I'm pretty sure it's not a spoiler to say that. And I'll just stop there.

alien_lover, I've been thinking about something you said earlier, about TV Liz having more depth than the other characters on the show. I was hoping you'd elaborate on that, cause that really intrigued me. For me, I see book Liz as being one of the deeper characters in the series, but tv Liz as probably having the least depth, next to Alex and Kyle. So I would love to hear a different opinion (besides which, I always like your posts ).

From my perspective, I see book Liz being much more developed, particularly in terms of her backstory. We see the roots of her obsession with grades and perfection, the reasons for the tension in her family life, the rigid control she keeps over herself, the strength of character she has to leave Max when he isn't there for her anymore . . . I just see her as very textured, in a way that tv Liz is not.

Despite all the time spent on Liz in season 1, I really don't know what makes her tick. There was some reference in the beginning of the show to her need for control, but it's not clear to me at all what drives this need in her. I sense tensions with her parents, but I'm not sure of why. I know she's dissatisfied with Roswell, has some ambitions to leave . . . yet if this stems from anything more than a boredom with small town life, I don't know what. Her excessive fear in the Balance over a speculative future harm to Max still makes no sense to me -- as it would have if Liz had already lost a loved one like a sister. Basically, I have no backstory for Liz to give her character any of the depth that I feel has been given to the other characters on the canvas.

Compared to tv Michael or tv Max, who I think are incredibly well developed, I don't quite have a grasp on Liz's character. TV Michael, well, I've gone on at length. But I think it's clear that he's angry and resentful at the life he has, yet at the same time feels that there is some fundamental lack in him that is to blame for the mess in his life -- a contradiction that is not unusual in abused children. That deep insecurity is echoed in his complicated hero-worship/resentment-filled relationship with Max. At the same time, we see him yearning for love, we see his incredible gentleness that he hides by pushing people away before they can either reject him, or be "contaminated" by whatever he feels is wrong with him. We know the sources of his ambition to leave Roswell, to prove himself a better person than I think even he believes himself to be, and the need to embrace his alienness as the only thing that both makes him special and explains his isolation from society.

Max, too, has great backstory. I think the responsibility he has felt towards everyone well being is aptly explained by his status as ruler. From an early age, he internalizes everything, moves glacially slow, considers every angle and fears action. I think it's safe to say that these traits stem from the fact that he's trapped both by fear of discovery, and fear of repeating the mistakes that got him and his loved ones killed, even when he didn't consciously remember them.

Anyways, didn't mean to go on so long. I just thought this was an intriguing idea. I'd be really interested to read your analysis of tv Liz vs. book Liz in this respect.

Anla -- I love your Alex/isabel moments. It's amazing to me how much I love their relationship in the books, when for me on the show it's been such a non-story. I'd have to pick as my personal favorite, along with their final conversation, the scene in the group connection during the battle with DuPris, where Isabel sends out her cheerleader image. Alex thinks to himself, of course she sent a picture of herself! But he thinks it lovingly, despite their breakup and all the angst between them, cause he knows Isabel and all her flaws, and loves her for them. I just think that was an amazing revelation.

As for A/I on the show, I have the selfish wish that they don't get together. Both because I don't see the actor chemistry, and because I think we need to see at least one example of where a teen couple doesn't work out, and just become good friends despite it all. And I wouldn't mind getting a Trevor on the show for Isabel, cause I want at least one alien-alien relationship, but I can't see any other alien pairing that I want among the main 4. But if they do pursue a A/I romance, I hope they move along as they do in the books. Cause to me that's a perfect blueprint for their relationship.

If it's true that Max isn't paying attention while Liz is looking tenderly at another man, then there is something seriously wrong. I mean, this is the man who not only became so obsessed with her when they were in the third grade that he was willing to risk the destruction of two planets to be with her now, but has also been exhibiting behavior leaning slightly toward stalker (at least until he saw her with Kyle). If something is interfering with Max's obsession and devotion with Liz, then there is something big going on. I wonder if they are going to ever bring over the collective consciousness storyline. It would be hard to do on tv, I'd think. All those experiences that happen more in feelings than actions. It was a good storyline, though, so it would be great if they could figure out a way to translate it onto the screen. On the other hand, things are way too complicated for the Pod Squad already. I really don't think Max could handle anymore.

While we're on the subject of the collective consciousness, something always bugged me about that in the books. Max is supposed to be this big science type/sci-fi fan. At one point, Michael teases him about his liking Star Trek (something about "Beam me up, Scotty" when they are first learning how to teleport, I think). Now, any sci-fi fan knows that collective consciousnesses are bad things. I can think of plenty of examples of them taking over your lives and turning you into a good little zombie/drone, but none of good friendly collectives. Max really should have been more cautious.

And, yes, I think Valenti's conversion from enemy to ally on the show was perfect. The acting was so well done. If you looked just at two scenes, the confrontation with Max at the UFO Crash festival in the Pilot, and his shooting Pierce while helping Max escape in the White Room, you would be completely lost. But when you see all the intervening episodes, it's so natural. It's really too bad that you never saw the Convention. Max's confrontation of Valenti was perfect. Maybe they'll show it again in repeats someday. The audience was with Valenti every step of the way as he changed his attitude. You can empathize with him. The writers did a wonderful job. Contrast this with Tess. Even though I actually did like her (quite a bit) in ARCC, I can't get a handle on her character. She's so very different now than she was when she came on back in Crazy. She's gone from manipulative deceiver to supportive domestic type. The only constant I can see is her strong desire for a family, and I try to hold onto that when I think about her. It doesn't really work for me though. Usually, I can't really like a character until I can put my finger on their underlying motivation. For Max, there are two: the need to protect everyone around him by remaining in control, and Liz. Michael also feels the need to protect everyone, but his motivation clashes with Max's because his approach is to always risk himself first in order to gain information the others need. (Max wants to keep him under control to keep him safe, and Michael will always rush off anyway in order to keep the others safe. No wonder they're always fighting ) I didn't like Isabel until The Balance, when I saw that everything in her life basically revolved around Max and Michael. She would have done anything for them, and couldn't imagine a life without the two of them yet. Of course, these are just my thoughts on the characters, and you may have totally different opinions. I haven't seen anything like this for Tess yet, though. I really wish we could see more from her point of view to learn what makes her tick.

I think that's why so many of us seem to like certain characters so much more in the books than we did on the show. As a medium, books give you more access into a person's thoughts and reasons for making the choices they do. It's one of the unfortunate short-comings of television that we don't usually get an unbiased look at people's motives. Of course, good actors can overcome this with their body language and facial expressions. Roswell has been blessed in having actors playing Max, Michael, and Valenti who can express so much of what they're thinking by just the looks on their faces.

Roswellian - As you could probably guess by my long-winded babbling session above, I agree with you that Max and Michael are well-developed 3-dimensional characters on the show. I think that watching them fight like they have been is so painful because I can see where they're both coming from, and how they are both making the situation worse. It hurt so much to read the books where Michael was being forced to choose between trusting Max and trusting Trevor. Who to believe in? The person who he always thought of as his brother, or his actual brother? And to watch Max slowly losing everyone in his family as he sank more and more fully into the consciousness. I was trying to sympathize with him about the consciousness thing, until he was busy watching cartoons while Isabel was talking about her akino. She called him on it - her brother would never have been watching television while she discussed her upcoming death. It freaked me out.

I just read the original pilot script. I don't know how long before they actually shot it that it was written, but it was very interesting. And very bizarre. So many differences from the show we all know and love today. Liz was still Ortecho at that point, and they were going to at least use the fact that she had a sister who died, and she felt she needed to be strong for her parents because of it. It had a lot of details the same as the books, but there were many differences too.

Oh, and my original difference for the day (well, it might have been mentioned before, in which case sorry, but I haven't seen it): On the show, there are more female aliens. In the books, the only female alien we see is Isabel. I guess Destiny would be a moot point with only one alien female along. Takes care of that story line. Of course, since they can shape-shift into any form, I always wondered about the genders among the aliens. I guess they must have had a basic gender underlying all the other shape-shifting.

While I'm back , what did you think of the differences in the two Marias' lives and how they've affected her relationship with the Michaels. Book Maria doesn't have the whole abandonment issue that TV Maria has.

By the way, one of Liz's lowest points on the show (in my opinion) came during Into The Woods when she kept complaining to Maria about how terrible it was that her father wanted to (eek!) spend time with her. Poor Maria, finally having to point out to Liz that the reason she wasn't going to keep her bud company was that she didn't have a dad. At least Max had the good grace to look uncomfortable when bringing up the subject of the father weekend to Michael. In Liz's defense, we've all gotten so caught up in our own stuff that we're careless of other people's feelings. Just another instance of realistic character portrayal on the show (I did want to yell at her, though )

Aphid - You brought up the parents awhile ago. I liked the fact that in the books, there was at least some explanation of ways they were trying to keep their parents out of the loop. For example, Trevor shape-shifting into Max and taking his place around the house while Max was in his collectiveness coma. Of the parents on the show, I think the ones I approve of the most are Maria's mom and Alex's dad. Amy is so cute, and you can see that she is really trying to be there for Maria and keep her from repeating her mistakes. And could Alex's two dads (tv and book) be more different from each other? I was so impressed by Alex's dad showing up for the camping trip like that. Last minute notice, his son says he wants to go camping, and because it's important to his son, the man shows up without a tent or anything and they go. True parental support. Somehow, I don't think this is the sort of activity that either Alex or his dad engage in regularly. I just hope they keep the two fathers different from each other. I would hate to have Alex's dad turn out to be one of the agents form the Secret Unit.

As to Alex's dad I agree. He seemed completely uncomfortable with the situation but he still wanted to be there if that is what Alex wanted.

I also understand Michael having nothing to do with it. I do have a mental picture though
of Hank staggering through the woods and tripping over downed branches. I think I would have liked that type of scene.

I do think that in the books, Mr. Pascal might have agreed to go but they would have had to include Dylan.

By the way, I rather liked the scene in the books where Michael and Maria taught Dylan to dance. That was really cute.

I don't know if I feel as though TV Liz os more in-depth than book Liz I think what it has to do with is the way Liz P. seems to display her emotions more. For me out of anyone on the show Liz has some of the most emotional scenes (i.e Pilot, LN,TLV,MTTM,Destiny, Eotw) (next to Max with WR, although Liz had some good emotions there too) I think by doing that I feel much closer to Liz P. Now Liz O. yeah she had some emotional stuff (Max and the counissious, her dad, Rosa) but for some reason I never felt as close like I wasn't as moved by it (of course mind you the only character to ever make me cry was Liz P so that speaks a lot on her behalf)

Of course there's always with having words are paper can have stronger meanings but I think that's what Liz's diary did for me. When she talked about dying and then coming to life, being a small town girl who got a little bit bigger, following her heart and leaving normal (one of my favorites) I just felt like I really knew Liz and could understand everything she was going through. In the book I got that feeling more from Michael.

It's just how much closer I feel to a character I mean of course I've had my momments where I want to just slap Liz, ITTW (like Anla said), MTD, and her coldness to Maria in MITC (thankfully she came to her senses and I know me think being mean to Maria a bad thing... yes its possible) But I do get what your saying about knowing more about Liz O. family giving her more depth it certainly did, but for me i always knew what Liz was thinking and why she was doing what she was doing, and you know even though I want to slap her and say "what are you doing??" I kinda know why she's doing what she's doing. I mean she's been through a lot for a 16/17 yr old she's allowed to make mistakes and that makes me like her even more since she's not perfect.

I really hope that made some sense, I think for me I feel closer to a character when I can see what's going on inside their head at the momment all the time, I couldn't do that with Liz O. but I can with Liz P.

I know I confuse myself sometimes.

alien

I thought the scene where Michael and Maria were teaching Dylan how to dance was adorable, too. You know, maybe tv Michael would be able to do some of these things, too. I could picture tv Michael acting as a surrogate big brother to another abandoned kid. I think he would like the chance, like book Michael got such a kick out of being Dylan's "big brother" and showing him things. But then, when would TV Michael ever have the time?

Now I've gone and gotten myself totally paranoid thinking about Major Manes and Mr. Whitman. Let's see, Manes was friendly with book Valenti and worked with him on Project Clean Slate. Whitman seemed friendly with TV Valenti, and he asked him about whether their campsite was near the supposed sighting. Simple curiosity or something more? Maybe we shall discover a conspiracy about Alex's family this season (of course, first we would have to actually find Alex again - where are you Alex?) Okay, this last paragraph has officially entered looney theory land, so I shall go. 'Bye.

Old Candyfan - Thanks for the info about Hank's last name. So much for the theory that Micheal was with Hank from day one. I guess he did do a little foster-home-hopping. So perhaps the "state-assigned last name" or "last name of the first foster parents" theory is what really happened.

Anla - I totally agree that something has to be majorly wrong with Max in order for him to not be paying attention to Liz. It really spooked me out and caused major conciousness flashbacks. Take a look at these pictures I found (courtesy of V Queen) on the friendshippers thread:

In this one you can even see that Max is reaching for something invisible.... sooo creepy!

In this one, you just see him looking at the ceiling, but he still looks really out of it. Rather like I imagined book Max at Target or something.

about the fact that Book Max should have known better. Then again, he really didn't feel like he had a choice. After all, even book Isabel took a little convincing (though not as much as book Micheal).

Actually I now have access to a tape of the convention (thanks Roswellian!), so I will be watching it soon - now with a special eye to the Valenti/Max interaction.

The one constant I find with Tess is her desire to fulfill the expectations of the aliens who created her and to remain true to her past life. Although Nasedo's rearing of her was not exactly warm, he instilled her with a sense of family history and obligation that, in many ways, is either lacking in the podsters, or comes out in Max and Isabel's reluctance to leave Roswell. When Nasedo leaves her life, she transfers her loyalty to Max (after almost leaving him in justifiable frustration at the fact that he is not letting her get on with the continuation of her former life as Nasedo promised) and tries to be a good supportive queen by basically being a doormat. As much as some of what Tess does rubs me the wrong way, I sympathize with her and find her motives to be pure, even if her actions are destructive. Okay, enough with that little treatise! I hope it helps you see what I think makes Tess tick (of course that could totally be my own little delusion).

I agree with your views of Isabel, Max and Micheal.

Good point about the lack of female aliens. I was so prepared for Cameron to be an alien, but then she wasn't and Trevor was and so on.... I don't think it means too much, but it was striking.

Old Candyfan - Good point about the differences between TV Amy and Book Amy. Another difference, I think, is that we never see Book Amy. We hear about her from Maria, but she is always not home when Maria is and although she and Liz's father have talked once or twice, we never see that either. Really kinda odd, but there you have it.

Anla - Yeah, I thought it was really sweet that Alex's dad showed up for the camping trip an was totally blown away by how different Alex's dad was in the books! It seems to me that the show is really going a different way for TV Alex, that is why I am really interested to see where they are going to take his character in two weeks. I do hope they don't keep him in the background anymore. I realize that a book-like friendship with Micheal is probably not going to happen, but I think he could be a good confidant and cousel for Max, if Max ever decided to open up to someone besides Liz (this assumes that he is not sucked perminantly into a conciousness-like stupor on the show! )

Old Candyfan - I agree with you that Liz was not intentionally rubing salt in the no-dad wound with Maria, but I do think it was rather tactless of her. Then again, Maria complaining about Micheal in front of Brody was equally tactless, so perhaps that's just par for the course with teenagers.

about Mr. Pascal agreeing to go to the father/son camping trip. I think it is something that Mr. Pascal would have insisted on actually. I see that as totally his ball of Wax, and soooo not Hank's!

I totally agree with you about TV Liz winning me over more for Shiri's charisma and acting ability than the specifics of the dialogue given her. For all of MBTV's protests of Lizbot, I don't find her to be wooden at all. I see her emotions on her face and can pretty much assume what her motives are, in a way that I just can't with a lot of the characters on the TV show. IMO it's the closest to a "book-type being inside a character's head" as can be accomplished on TV.

I think you are also right about the journal entries. I really thought I was going to hate them (both on the original viewing and the recent reveiwing) because of bad Doogie Howser flashbacks, but I didn't. They were mercifully short, often delivered over quasi-action shots (not that annoying computer screen) and gave us a chance to look at what was going on inside her.

Well folks, I think that's it for tonight. Just had to weigh in on the conversation and show you the creepy TV Max pics.

I will eventually get to the ever threatened point seven (and last point! I know... mass relief).

Cheers!

I wonder if he ever did go to dinner with them after Mrs Pascal invited him that time?
I don't think the tv Michael would have lasted as long there as the book Michael but
you are probably right that he would have tried to be a big brother to Dylan.

I just bought all the books and just finished the first.

I just bought all the books and just finished the first.

Welcome Catwoman!

Well get reading girl!
We look foreward to your coming back.

Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. I think I do understand a lot more of what you are saying (although feel free to correct me if I'm getting it wrong ). For you, the Liz backstory is unneccesary, because you feel you understand Liz just from hearing her thoughts/seeing her actions. I think there is something to be said for having an "ordinary" girl be the lens through which we see the first few episodes, because her thoughts and feelings are likely to resonate with the viewing audience. In many ways, TV Liz is supposed to be the viewer, the normal person leading a life where nothing happens, but who longs for something extraordinary.

Thinking about it as you frame it, it makes a lot of sense to me that we would need a character like Liz in the show, whereas Liz's point of view is not so important to the books. Precisely because in the books, we can get the perspectives of each character, and thus empathize for everyone involved, we are immediately involved in the story. But on the television show, where you can't get into each character's head, we need a dramatic point of entry, as it were, someone to guide us into a world where aliens really do exist. Liz, being us, serves that function. And because for many viewers, Liz represents them in a way, it's understandable that people feel that she is the emotional heart of the show.

BTW, I actually do love the journal entry about the small town girl becoming a little bigger too. One of my favorite Liz moments.

quote:BTW, I actually do love the journal entry about the small town girl becoming a little bigger too. One of my favorite Liz moments.d you understand.

Thst was one fo my favorites too. I think that Roswell needs a character like Liz, someone who's normal and a lot of us can recoginize ourselves with (well I can Im sure not everyone can)

quote:Oh that's one of my favorites too. I just think Roswell needs a character like Liz, someone who's normal and people can compare themselves too (or at least that's how I feel)I totally agree with you about TV Liz winning me over more for Shiri's charisma and acting ability than the specifics of the dialogue given her. For all of MBTV's protests of Lizbot, I don't find her to be wooden at all. I see her emotions on her face and can pretty much assume what her motives are, in a way that I just can't with a lot of the characters on the TV show. IMO it's the closest to a "book-type being inside a character's head" as can be accomplished on TV.

Wow I couldn't agree with you more. A lot of Shiri's acting ability has to do with why i like Liz so much. And even though I always read DJB's latest review (there too funny not to) I never agree with the Lizbot thing. Mostly cause out of anyone on the show she's the only one I can ever feel any emotions from (i.e only character to ever make me cry) so I think Shiri might be one of the reasons I like LizP more than LizO.

Oh and I've been so weirded out by that pic of Max... I mean what is he doing. I think their might be n explaination but Im spoiler-free so I wouldn't know what that is. Oh and yeah that does remind me of the Target thing.

alien

Aphid - Okay, those pictures are really disturbing me! Max looks so goofy. And creepy at the same time. I don't think I even want to know what he's looking at up there. And he should definitely be paying attention to Liz. Great, more disasters looming for our heroes.

All right, I can accept that Tess's underlying character trait is duty to her heritage and destiny. It's not really the girl's fault, being raised by Nacedo, poor thing. Still, she has to accept the fact that the others are not going to accept the destiny that is being rammed down their throats just because someone tells them to. She's come a long way since Nacedo's death, I have to give her credit for that. I suppose Nacedo encouraged her to use her mind games on the Pod Squad for "their own good" back in season 1. Actually, I've come to the conclusion that I am capable of really liking Tess, as long as she is away from Max. I really can't approve of the sudden switch she undergoes from funny independent girl to submissive yes-girl. She hasn't quite found the balance between support of Max and being her own person. Well, her character has come a long way over the summer, so we'll see how much more she changes over time.

Actually, we did see Maria's mother at least twice in the books. Her name wasn't Amy though, it was Margaret (nickname Mimi). Once, Maria came home late and found her mother with the new sheriff (the one who took over after Valenti was made into a giant pile of ash by the Adam-puppet). They had been having a single mother's meeting. The other time I remember is after Maria's mom found out from Liz's dad that they had been out camping with boys without a chaperone. Her mom wants to give her a talk about the birds and the bees, and Maria freaks out so much she even eats a candy bar. Imagine how her mother would have reacted if she knew about all the times Michael snuck into Maria's bedroom at night to watch videos. I guess Maria was lucky that her mother was so busy dating to really notice her odd comings and going.

Oh, and I hope you enjoy The Convention. I really wish I could see it again, both because it was funny, and because I want to remind myself of some details from the whole Sheila Hubble mystery. (Why oh why didn't the Podsters ask Nacedo what was up with that?) I really should have started taping the episodes sooner, but how was I to know how addicted I would become?

Catwoman - Hope you enjoy the books. I really liked your signature line. That's what I love about Alex - he's self-confident enough to take pride in his geekiness.

That's all for now.

alien

Let's see, what grabbed my attention in the books at first. Of course, I probably never would have even picked them up if it wasn't for the show, which would have been a shame. I think it was the scene where Max is telling Liz that he's an alien. I remember thinking that I could totally relate to her response - total terror and panic. I would probably have acted the same way. But she still found the inner strength and courage to believe in him. And I felt so badly for Max - he was so scared to tell her. Or maybe it was the "pea pod" conversation that Max had with Maria - too funny! It's kind of strange that in both cases, book and tv, the scenes that originally hooked me were Max scenes, since Michael is my favorite character. Well, his character took longer for me to warm up to, I guess. Thanks again for the answer.

alien

Do you think Michael would have gone through with killing Brody if Max hadn't stopped him? How much has the trauma of killing Pierce desensitized him to violence? In season one, Michael was always one of the least violent of them. However, his almost instant agreement with Isabel that Brody had to be killed worried me a bit. In the books, Michael said that he would kill DuPris for them - he said he didn't want Max (or the consciousness through Max) to do it, but he had no problems with doing it himself. The others said that they didn't believe he could ever be okay with killing someone, even if he had to. The situation never arose in the books, so we don't know how he would have dealt with it, or if he would have gone through with it. Which leads to another difference between the book and the show - in the books none of the major characters kills anyone, yet this season we have dead Skins all over the place. Trevor takes out DuPris, Valenti kills Nikolas, and Adam kills Valenti, but that wasn't really Adam. None of the seven main characters takes a life that I can recall. Goes along with the innocence the book characters have that the show characters have lost.

The book Michael seemed to have no trouble whatsoever controlling his powers.

You're absolutely right about Michael using his powers less than the others in season 1 due to his lack of control. Even considering that, I think Michael back then was less likely to act out with violence than Max. I thought about this right after watching Destiny, when he was so overcome with guilt over Pierce's death, and it surprised me. If anyone had asked, I would have said Michael was the more violent of the two, just because of his attitude and Max's general self-control. But then I was thinking. Max grabs Michael at least twice that I can think of (Leaving Normal and Tess, Lies, and Videotape). Max knocked down the bathroom stall in Leaving Normal (loved Michael's line - "Gandhi feeling frustrated? ) Michael never fought back against Hank. And of course, there was Max hitting Michael in Crazy (although I do think that Michael might have snapped and started a full-scale fist-fight with Max then if the others hadn't grabbed him). Obviously, Max was going around beating people up for kicks or anything, but he did lash out a few times when the stress of staying in control of a basically uncontrollable situation got to be too much for him. Looking at the total fear on Michael's face when he tried to keep Hank from going after Isabel, I think Michael was always afraid of using his powers - that he might go too far and kill somebody, which is what happened with Pierce. I wonder if this is the result of being abused in this life, or something that happened in the previous life. We know he was supposed to be a warrior before, so it can be assumed that he killed plenty of the enemy. Maybe his previous life remembers that on a sub-conscious level, and doesn't want to repeat something that happened before.

I don't know if any of the characters in the books would have been able to kill someone like Brody. Adam felt so badly for killing Valenti, and that was just his body, not his mind controlling it. The books really kept away from that area, which left the characters less traumatized than the show.

The past life scenario in the show opens up a lot of unanswered questions and possible storylines that weren't present in the books, where they were full aliens orphaned on this planet. In the books, they had genetic memories that we could assume all of their species were born with (the acide green clouds of their home planet), while on the show, their memories could be a result of the genetic engineering or their subconscious remembering things from their past lives. I hope the show explores these issues more.

Yeah, Michael and Maria are adorable in the books. I think my favorite part was when Michael grabbed the Stone of Midnight and told Max to kill him instead of Maria. Sigh. He was willing to die to protect her. I also loved the ending - so sweet and funny. Maria insisting that she needed to hear the words, and Michael so confused until Isabel and Alex give him prompts - "Think three words, Michael" or something like that. And Michael surprised that they thought it would be hard for him to say he loved Maria. A great ending for Michael and Maria fans. The book also had a beautiful Dreamer ending, and even the Stargazers could hope that Alex and Isabel would eventually reconnect. Over all, I was very happy with the ending of the series (although I still wish there was more).

Well anyone who's seen tonight's episode sees that I totally overracted to the screencaps. Heheehe... well it looked like a conciousness thing! I guess it was just Max causing it to rain rose petals. I gotta admit that I agree with Isabel, for a Max/Liz fantasy, that was kinda ho hum... lol!

Seems we do have another love interest for Liz, though, Sean. Yet a rather different take than with Adam. This time it seems that Liz is almost the agressor here (granted it is out of the fact that she still feels she can't have Max - whatever)! Also a rather different take on the character of her love interest. It's still percolating in my mind, I'll try to come up with some sort of coherant comparison later. Or perhaps y'all will....

Anla - I can see your point about Tess and destiny, but, as you said, she's been much better this season and in this last episode she was entirely with Kyle. I like her much better with him! She's funny, she has a spine, she can just be herself. It's soooo nice to see.

Thanks for correcting me about Maria's mother in the books and the fact that we do see her in person a few times. I guess I just let all the near misses block the acutal appearances out!

I did see the convention and it was really a good episode. We did hear hubble mentioned this past episode, but I don't have much hope that we will get clues on Sheila Hubble, unless she turns out to be a DNA donor (not that that is likely except, possibly for Max, but then there is the whole where did the Y chromosome come from thing...). I would like to see that resurface eventually though. Just she just looks too much like Liz!

I must admit that the books really avoided a whole bunch of really hairy scientific stuff when Melinda decided that the podsters were in thier original bodies. The lack of former lives, alien bodies, DNA donors, four other planets, former lives as royalty, duplicates and changed humans makes the books much less complicated! There is less room for messing up, but I must admit that of all the complications I wish the show had not delved into, I think I am going to like hearing about the human DNA donors and exactly how the podsters were created and how they and humans are connected and exactly how Kyle and Liz's change is going to play out. I really hope Kyle ends up having powers! You have NO idea how dissappointed I will be if he doesn't!

As much as I love the books, the TV show, being a longer story, has the ability to delve into so many other subjects that the books do not have time to cover. Now if the TV show could get those freindships right.... I loved the Kyle/Tess and Kyle/Liz time. The Maria/Liz time and the Max/Isabel time, but what happened to Max and Isabel sharing alien events with Micheal and Tess (at the very least)? Um.... it was like Max and Isabel were in their own little world.... did Max have a single scene with another of the great 8 in this episode? Oy vey!

Anla - glad to see that you poked your head into the friendshipper thread. You can see what I mean about them not being too verbose, but I still like to have a place to go and vent every once in a while.

Well folks, I really need to book some bed-time. Have a great post-Roswell Tuesday!

Night!

Aphid - If Tess continues the way she has been in the last two episodes, I will have to officially become a Tess fan (and you don't know how far that is from where I was concerning her character after Destiny ) I loved the scenes between her and Kyle. Too funny. The remote control trick had me practically falling out of my chair laughing. I've done that to my brother! True, he though it was a ghost, not his alien powers, but still. And I probably wouldn't have even remembered Maria's mother if not for the fact that I just finished reading the books a few weeks ago. You're right, we hear about her being missing much more often than we see her.

So, we see Max and Isabel sitting in the kitchen, flipping through the channels, bored out of their skulls, while we assume their parents are sleeping (unless their parents have fallen into the same black hole as Alex). Is this the show's way of showing the book's fact that the aliens only need 2 or so hours of sleep a night? I remember in the books how Isabel would be so bored that she would either go dream-walking (like in last night's episode) or reorganize the entire house. Perhaps that was what was implied last night.

Okay, gotta go now. Bye, everybody.

To keep this on topic, however, I'll say this. The lack of M&M continuity in the books precisely matches the lack of M&M continuity in the show. I can never tell how, when, or why those two are together.

About Michael killing Brody -- that is one of my least favorite scenes of the season, and really ruins Ask Not for me, despite the welcome Max-Maria time in that episode. We have the trauma of killing Pierce in Destiny. We see in S&B that that trauma is still there. Then in the VERY NEXT episode Michael is all gung ho about a plan that calls for the cold blooded murder of a stranger on virtually no evidence whatsoever that he's a threat. Truly bizarre, out of character, and just strange given the proximity in time to Michael dealing with his unplanned act of violence. And there didn't even seem to be a lot of soul searching or angst about it! I try to erase these moments from my mind, or else they would make me too angry.

Wow, could the new Valenti be any more different than the creepy one in the books?

I really wonder if Dan is going to be a bad guy ala Pierce or just an anoyance. I really like the actor who plays him, always have, so I hope he will at least be tolerable. It is unusual for me to see him in a role as an antagonist.

I hope they don't keep Sean around to long. The cast is already huge and I don't see him adding that much. Of course I have been wrong before. I'm sure I will be again.

I was very upset about the whole let's kill Brody thing, too. Like I said, I could imagine Isabel doing it, but not Michael. I was really worried that they were going to do a whole storyline about bringing Michael over to the dark side or something after that episode. I even had a list of all the things that I was worried about: 1. Too much fighting between Michael and Max 2. Michael agreeing to kill Brody 3. Michael's flirting with Courtney, who we found out was a Skin in that episode. But then the show went in the direction of Isabel/Vilandra as the traitor.

In the books, Michael almost turned on Max and the others for his brother. Now that the show seems about to tell us more about their human ancestry, I wonder if Michael will be put into a situation where he has a human "family" and has to choose between them and his alien family. Questions of family are a big part of Michael's psychological make-up, both in the book and the show. And of course, this would also tie-in to the whole "alien vs. human" situation that the show has set up since it began.

old_candyfan - So, the guy in that scene was just some dream-guy Liz made up, huh? Okay. And we have a new guy, Sean, who she's flirting with. Okay again. But where's Alex? I want Alex back. Or at least to have them mention him. In the books, when Alex was missing, they kept talking about him. They even tried to upload one of his "lists" on his website. On the show, he hasn't been mentioned in months. What types of friends don't even mention the fact that one of the gang is missing? Alex was such an integral part of the group in the books, but he seems to be overlooked this season on the show. Last night, I kept thinking that Isabel would be able to handle this better if Alex was there. Alex has always been a source of support and strength for Isabel, both in the books and on the show.

Dan was the investigator guy who kept giving Valenti a hard time, right? What's up with him? I suspect he knows more about what's really going on in Roswell than he's letting on. Let's see: in the books when Valenti was killed, they all relaxed until they realized that Project Clean Slate was still in existance and Major Whitman worked for it (not to mention the alien threat from DuPris). On the show, they all relaxed a bit when Pierce was killed, and then the alien threat heated up with the Skins' arrival. But perhaps there will be a human threat too - someone taking up where Pierce left off. Of course, that position could also be taken by whoever kidnapped Laurie. Who knows? Guess we'll just have to wait and see, but I don't trust that guy or Grant, for that matter.

Done for now.

Oh yeah Kyle rules.. he's the best Roswell just isn't the same without Kyle... and did anyone notice that oh my god Kyle had a storyline

alien

You're right about the being up late at night channel-surfing. That brought back sooo many book memories to me! I don't think it is the Roswell show folks' intention that the podsters need less sleep than humans, but it sure was a really familiar scene. All the way down to Isabel dreamwalking out of the bordem of it all.... Yep, I think that was a little shout-out to book fans out here.

Roswelian and company - Favorite book. Well I used to say it was #2 because of the Nikolas storyline and the great dreamer scene at the end, but Roswelllian reminded me how much I loved the Isabel/Micheal akino scenes in #9, so I'd have to say it's a tie between #2 and #9. I liked the dealings with the conciousness in #10, but there was something off to it. I think Roswellian or someone mentioned that it seemed more influenced by the TV show and perhaps that's it....

OldCandyfan - On the subject of Sean, I could totally see an Adam-like death for him (whether he finds out about the aliens or not). I stole the theory that Sean was realeased by Dan to help him investigate the podsters and perhaps when he switches loyalties, that is when it will happen. I agree with you that there just can't be another addition to the pod squad at this point. That would be too much.

Anla - I too miss Alex. Though I must admit, unlike book Alex, TV Alex never really seems to have attained full pod squad status. He always seemed on the outskirts of the group and the non-reference to him in his abscence makes this even more apparent. Unfortunately....

I do agree with you though that Isabel could have really used his support throughout this experience and same goes for the whole Vilandra thing. Man, for a girl so in need of a friend why doesn't she ever talk to Alex about what is important! Arrrgh! We can only hope that that will change. Book Izzy had to learn to appreciate Alex while he was gone, so perhaps Isabel from the show will do the same....

I must admit that I agree with you about Dan giving me major "project clean slate" flashbacks. Perhaps a non-govermental resurrection of the special unit? I guess we will have to wait and see.

Alien Lover - I totally agree with you about Sean. I like him just like I liked Adam, and despite their differences in character, for the same reason. They both seem to care about Liz (but it doesn't hurt that Sean takes Maria's ribbing with so much style... gotta like that).

Also absolutely - Kyle Rules! Am I the only one starting to see Trevor-type qualities in Kyle? The hansomeness, the humor, the coolness.... I dunno, probably just me.

Anla - I too see Liz taking on Sean as a distraction. Rather like with Adam, I don't think she is ever going to be in love with him. Just attracted to him and in need of something to keep her mind off of Max. On the other hand, though, I could see Sean having an Adam-like attraction to Liz... If I'm right that Adam was released by Dan to do some spying, perhaps his attraction to Liz could reverse that... perhaps even result in a heroic death for him. *sigh*

I'm glad they aren't making him like the book Kyle. He was really creepy in the books.

I completely agree that Kyle rules! How did we have Season 1 without ever giving him a prominent role? Hard to imagine now. He's becoming my favorite part of the show, even above Michael. Well, perhaps not above Michael, but damn close. And I really like the Trevor comparison. I definitely see it.

Speaking of the Kyle-Trevor comparison, but did anyone else see the possibility of a Kyle-Michael friendship in the Crashdown scene. I know they only had like 2 lines together, but there was something about their chemistry . . . I could see them being buds, they both have the same kind of caustic air to them, and they could both have fun ragging on Max. I think it would be nice if Michael could have a tension-less friendship with a male buddy, a la his relationship with either Alex or book 10 Trevor.

I completely agree, Aphid, that I don't feel that strongly that Alex has a place on the show, as I did with book Alex. It's partly because he was out of the loop so long in the show, partly because his relationship with Isabel went nowhere, and mostly because they really never wrote him as an integral member of the team. They gave him stuff to do, sure, but they didn't develop his relationships with the Podsters well, or place him in the overall group dynamic. When he's not in an episode, I tend not to notice until I get to the boards. When Michael or Isabel or Maria aren't in an episode, I notice immediately.

However, that's not really the way in which I thought Kyle was similar to Trevor (though I totally see that now, even more reason!). I thought of the similarity more in the way we have another hansome male podster with a different view of things and no specific loyalty to Max and an agenda of his own (Trevor's was to wipe out the conciousness, Kyle's is to preserve his sanity and go back to living as normal a life as possible). For instance, when Kyle takes his own course of action in Wipe Out. There he was watching out for humans and thus for himself and he was going to do it whether Max wanted him to or not.

Or it just could be that he's cute!

Roswellian - Unfortunately, you are right. For all the reasons you said TV Alex has not really been made a real part of the podster clan (as Book Alex was) and that soooo pisses me off!

I really want them to pull him in and give him a role! Isabel needs a friend, Max needs a friend (and Isabel and Max could use some time apart, I totally agree with you Roswellian, that's just getting icky now!). What happened to that really deep frienship that he and Liz talked about in blood brothers? Plus, there is a desperate need for a pair of science geek compter nerds to sit around and explain all this genetic/glowing orb stuff to the podsters and the audience.
::pant:: ::pant:: ::pant::

Okay, I feel better now. *sigh* I just want them to use my boy, ya know?

I totally agree OldCandyfan. I was so cheered by the fact that Alex was included in the strategy session in Meet the Dupes! A few scenes like that wouldn't hurt would they? And Roswellian is right, for a main character, we have had precious little delving into what he thinks! Grrr.... I miss the era of Blood Brothers and The Convention! Okay, enough rambling on that... I really should do some work at some point!

You're all right - Alex has never been completely accepted into the group in the show, which is such a shame. He was such an integral part of the group in the books. His was one of the deciding votes against telling Valenti about the aliens. He and Maria were going to tell, but then Alex saw Max defend Liz to Kyle, and he decided to trust the aliens. Of course, Alex in the show was never really given that much information on what was going on. He didn't have the choice of going to the sheriff or not for the longest time because nobody told him what was going on! But when he did know, he always came through for them. I sincerely hope the writers decide to include him more when he returns from his mystery tour.

Kyle's friendly flirtation with Tess is similar to what Trevor started with Maria in the books. There was a lightness to it, two people having fun together without worrying about fighting evil aliens or the end of the world. I laughed so hard at Michael's party - Michael trying to decide if Maria was really flirting with his brother and then all of them teaching Trevor how to do the alien bop. I wonder what type of party TV Michael would give? I somehow doubt that the alien bop would be part of it.

Old_candyfan - Yes, TV Kyle is definitely better than Book Kyle. Although both Kyles accepted the fact that there were aliens in Roswell pretty easily. The use they put that information to is very different, however. TV Kyle is pretty philosophical about it, except when it comes to the fact that he might grow antennae and develop alien hands. Book Kyle used it as a weapon (or tried to) against Liz and Adam in order to get information about who killed his father. Which reminds me, who do you think Kyle was living with between the time when his father disappeared and he went to stay in the mental hospital?

Roswellian - I love the idea of Michael and Kyle becoming friends and giving Max a hard time. Maybe Kyle's influence could help Michael to disagree with Max's decisions without attacking him personally. At least the arguments would be funnier.

I hope that Alex's disappearance has made Isabel appreciate him more, like in the books (although I tend to doubt it). At any rate, he should be back next week and we'll see then.

Anla - Actually I think that Ray and TV Valenti were good parents to the podsters but only because it doesn't require the day to day monotonous stuff that being a real parent requires. That is why TV Valenti is less a good parent for Kyle (and it some ways, Tess). You are right that Valenti spends little time with Kyle and at the beginning of this season he was two hours picking Kyle up! Not exactly father of the year.

He also completely doesn't pick up on the fact that Tess would really like to celebrate Christmas or that Kyle is freaking out because he may be an alien. In that way, Ray was kind of better than Valenti. He was better at figuring out that something was bothering Max or one of the podsters and knowing when to ask and when to just kinda be there.

On the other hand, when it comes to being there for them when their lives are in danger and believing in them when it counts, Valenti is there 100% and so was Ray (even to death for that guy). I guess you go with your strengths, no?

As far as Ray being part of the conciousness (as were Micheal and Trevor's parents if I recall), I am not really worried about that. I think that they just went to some sort of afterlife. I imagine it being sort of akin to what Liz and Max were before they came back down to earth to reappear near the wormhole.

What I do wonder about the conciousness is if Ray could have taught Max how to keep them at bay. After all, Ray was not spending days on end with a see and say in Target or leaning over in the middle of conversations with Max to feel the texture of dish soap. Then again, if that had happened, then Max might not have been such an advocate for eliminating the conciousness and we could have had an entirely different ending to the series....

I think there is some hope for TV Alex. Rumors have it that Alex will come back from Sweden with a "new attitude" so perhaps this bit of character development might mean that he has a storyline of sorts going on in next week's episode. Goodness let's hope so!

TV Micheal doing the alien bop? I think not. Man I do hope Kyle and Micheal do become friends though, that would be great for both of them and I definately agree. It would make the arguments between Micheal and Max sooo much funnier (Kyle just has a special talent with cool quips).

It sounds like Book Kyle just thought his dad was missing and that not much time had passed. Perhaps he was living at his house and refusing to be seen by social services until he had word about his dad. After all, I don't think it was more than a week or two of time passage there (that I remember). Although TV Kyle does have a mother somewhere. Perhaps Book Kyle's mom was contacted to look in on Book Kyle while he finished out the school year in his dad's house. It would make sense that they not take him away from his friends (if he had any).

See ya!

You're right, Valenti will probably never get a good parenting medal. He needs to spend more time with Kyle, and leaving him at the bus station for two hours was not a sign of perfect parenting (although I found it amusing). However, I still think he is trying to be a better parent this season than last. He is spending more time with Kyle than he used to, and he gave him that speech about how proud he was in Wipe-Out (I was really impressed with Valenti during that scene). I think you're right - Valenti's love and concern will always come out more in the life-and-death situations than the more mundane. I doubt that we will ever see a scene of Valenti checking over Kyle's homework to make sure that it's correct or that he studied for a test. However, he would risk his career, reputation, and life to take care of Kyle and the rest of the Pod Squad. In fact, a large part of his dedication to protecting Max comes from gratitude to him for saving Kyle's life. Plus, I think Valenti stands out as the best of the parents we've seen in Roswell. Apparently, absentee parents are just as common in Roswell as aliens. After all, Valenti is at least aware of what state his son is in, while the Evanses can't say that with any certainty, and who knows what happened to Liz's mother? I'm personally leaning towards the theory that she's exploring whatever black hole Alex fell into (yes, I know Alex is supposedly coming back next week, but they better have a good explanation for where he's been and why nobody has mentioned it). So, Valenti is the best of the Roswell parents right now, for whatever that comparison is worth.

While reading the later books, I did wonder about Ray and how relatively normal and well-adjusted he seemed. I wonder if he learned how to block out the consciousness, or if it was simply that the consciousness didn't have a need to exert as much control over them as it felt was necessary with Max. The consciousness used Max to get the Stone of Midnight back from DuPris, and then used him as a bargaining chip to try to get Isabel (and one would assume eventually Michael) to join.

The consciousness thing . . . while I liked the books, the concept was never well explained. Why was Max catatonic while Ray was not? And it didn't seem like everyone else on their planet had zoned out like Max either. If everyone connected to the consciousness died when it was destroyed, and everyone above a certain age pretty much joins the consciousness, then doesn't mean they pretty much committed genocide by killing it? That never made much sense to me.

And Anla, the planet does have a name. It was announced on the silverhandprint site that it's Antar. Or, as I like to say, A****.

Thanks for the information about the home planet's name. Antar, huh? I haven't been to that website. Is this the official name? The lack of a name was really bugging me. Now, how long do you think it will be until someone tells the Pod Squad the name? Maybe Larek will when he visits next.

I'm still wondering though about the Dupes protector. Was Nacedo in charge of both groups? It doesn't sound like it since Nacedo did say I have four of you to look after now. Also the Dupes had more information about the home planet the Roswell four.

Ray and Dupris were the only adult servivors of the crash in the books but there must have been more in show than the two who were caught.

I'm still wondering though about the Dupes protector. Was Nacedo in charge of both groups? It doesn't sound like it since Nacedo did say I have four of you to look after now. Also the Dupes had more information about the home planet the Roswell four.

Ray and Dupris were the only adult servivors of the crash in the books but there must have been more in show than the two who were caught.

I wished Tess and Max had been able to get some information out of Lonnie and Rath about their guardian. I still believe that there were two shapeshifters out there. I'm a believer in the Tic Tac theory. I think the writers might be leading in that direction, too, what with the two aliens we saw in the morgue during Summer of 47 and the fact that there were two sets of pods requiring protection.

On the topic of Alex, I have high hopes for at least some sort of subplot dealing with him and his return. I must admit that I really want him to become a much bigger part of things now that he has finished filming the movie. After all, I know it means nothing, but book Alex was a real stabilizing force for Isabel and I really think she could use that. Yeah Isabel and Max are closer together now, but I really think she needs someone else, you know? Even if he is not going to end up with her. Which I really hope she doesn't unless they make a concerted effort to improve the chemistry between these two... but that's a little off topic.

Roswellian - Good point about the fact that Ray was less than warm with the podsters. Much less than Valenti actually, but Ray did more for them than Nasedo ever did and I give him props for that. But you are right, Ray was not exactly father of the year either. Still, I think he cared for them in his own little alien way.

Anla - Good point about the lonliness and the lack of hope that they could ever go home making Ray clam up, I can see that.

In fact I can see the whole "I have a lot of time here - let's take it slow" syndrome working with both of them (Ray and Nasedo) with disasterous (if not convenient) consequences.

I do agree that the genocide thing worried me, but then since the movement to get rid of the conciousness started on their own planet with aliens, then perhaps that means that it would simply cause the alien souls to pass on. After Max dissappeared, that really worried me. I must admit that that sort of worries me still. I think that those who were already dead just went to an afterlife (like Ray and Micheal & Trevor's parents) but I must admit that if everyone on the planet over the age of 18 dissappeared like that, um, ouch. Perhaps on the home planet they reapparated in a central location or something? After all, Max did seem perfectly able to go back to earth of his own free will. Perhaps the aliens could all do that too. Let us hope so....

Old Candyfan & Anla - I agree with you guys. I see Ray as the nice parts of Nascedo mixed with some pieces of Valenti. On the other hand, I see Nascedo as part Ray and part Nikolas (actually as I said in the intro, I see him as almost a perfect half and half). Nascedo has a lot of the "alien-mentor" qualities that Ray had including a certian close-mouthness and lack of willingness to totally become reconciled to his job as teacher, prefering the role of protector. Whereas Nacedo's view of humans is totally Nikolas - I agree with you Anla. They are simply lower lifeforms that perhaps should not be killed on a whim, but can be easily eliminated if necessary. Fortunately Nasedo (unlike Nikolas) was prepared to let Max make the call on that one.

I also am (since MitC) a total TicTac/other protector believer. I used to say that since the other alien seems to have died in captivity that that means that only one is left. On the other hand, it would make sense that perhaps there was one that the government never saw, caught or knew about - like DuPris in the books.

That would also explain how he had time to get the dupes all the way the NYC. And it could explain why folks never discovered the pods in more or less plain sight in the subway tunnels. TicTac could have been protecting/concealing them.

On a different note, I think the parallels to the book series and the TV series are going to be limited now that we are dealing with the Hybrid Chronicals, with the exception of two things:
1) The whole Adam/Sean parallel
2) The Return of Alex

See ya all later!

To bring this on topic -- the books were really good So is the show.

And Alex and Isabel should be close. Isabel needs a source of strength and stability in her life these days. I'd like to see her get back some more to the strong Ice Princess we saw at the start of the show. Alex on the show has the same inner strength and faith in her that Book Alex had, so he could help, whether they become a couple again or stay really good friends. Guess we'll see in two days when he comes back.

Phaze - Yes, both the collective consciousness and Tess ended up separating Liz/Max, as did Adam and Future Max. Those two - they really have the odds stacked against them, don't they? As if being human vs. alien hybrid wasn't enough of an obstacle? However, I see a difference in that Tess came to town with the express purpose of getting Max for herself, so coming between him and Liz was pretty much the plan once she learned about that relationship. I don't think the consciousness ever meant to drive Max and Liz apart until it was necessary in order to get the Stone of Midnight. At first, I seem to recall the consciousness approving and curious of Max's feelings for Liz. It was Liz who found the consciousness's presence to be a problem in their relationship, not Max (not that I blame her - it was pretty wierd). Having Max be so mean to Liz was a means to an end, not the end itself, like it was for Tess. And wouldn't it have been nice to see the TV characters mention how much they miss Alex, like the book characters did?

It's to allow Max to connect to the Consciousness once he goes through his akino, of course.

I was thinking of the reactions of the two Mrs. DeLucas to the knowledge that Maria was off unsupervised with a boy. I think TV Mom was actually more proactive and effective in the situation (although Book Mom was probably more realistic). Book Mom just sat around, munching candy, waiting for Maria to get home, and then she pretty much stumbled her way through an attempt at the birds&bees talk. TV Mom held Maria's best friend prisoner, threatened her with violence if she didn't spill about where Maria was, confiscated her phone, and threatened Michael if he had sex with her daughter. Personally, I think that whole phone call was the best part of the episode. Too funny. Amy is just cool - and she was in two episodes in a row. Isn't that some sort of record for the parents of Roswell? The differences, of course, probably arise from the differences in the characters. Amy DeLuca has her suspicions about what Maria and Michael are doing on their lost weekend because she's thinking back to what she was doing at Maria's age.

PepperjackCandy - Welcome to our little corner of the forums! Yep, back when the show synopsis (from TV Guide and the like) described the blue goo as crystals I was totally thinking about the crystals Max uses to connect to the conciousness! Hehehe... well looks like the show is going in a different direction as well they should. Still brought back a little feeling of Deja Vu there!

Anla - I think that we did. I am not sure it was more than 5 or so, but I think I responded to The Roswellian's 1/27 post and your 1/28 post, so perhaps that was lost as well as perhaps a post of yours. But it is sure nothing like the 4 pages of posts lost on the CHADDs thread.

Good observation about the differences between Book Mrs. DeLuca and TV Mrs. DeLuca. Though a terrible tragedy of misunderstanding, I have still not seen Disturbing Behavior, but I will soon! I have heard that the Amy scene is great though and I think you are right. Amy's reaction is much more effective, though book Mrs. DeLuca did seem to act in a more "typical" way. I totally agree that there was a little "Loralei Gilmore don't you dare do what I did when I was your age" in Amy's reaction and that works sooo much better than just saying don't do it because I said so. Ya know?

Well that's it for today, see you guys soon!

Ooooh! Good point! Particularly if the reason Laurie is wacko is because of her being infected with the parasite or with some sort of parasite vaccine with the little side effect of madness. I do wonder how the podsters are going to be able to neutralize this threat.

An interesting difference thought, the parasite is a danger to both humans and podsters, whereas the conciousness is only a danger to the aliens. Hmmmm... Perhaps that is necessary to keep the humans involved and connected to the podsters?

I don't watch the Gilmore Girls (that's what you were referencing, right?), but I'm guessing that they have a similar relationship to Maria and Amy? Yes, I thought that Amy's response to the situation was slightly unusual for a parent, but very effecive. We've already seen in the past (ID) that Maria is well aware of the mistakes her mother made, and doesn't intend on repeating them in her own life. It should be interesting to see how this affects her relationship with Michael.

Comparing the Gendarium (?) with the communication crystals from the books: Did Kyle in the books ever get near the crystals? That could explain why he went all crazed and stalkerish, ultimately ending up in the mental hospital. Just kidding. There are similarities to Laurie there. Laurie kept going on about aliens, and she ended up in a mental hospital, too, just like Kyle in the books. I wonder if Laurie is really crazy or infected or just traumatized by being chased by evil aliens. Hopefully, we'll find out in the next episode.

Yes I know we lost a lot of posts. We were much farther along in the thread.

I don't remember the crystals in the book being dangerous to the planet, Just neceesary to make the connection.

The phone home with Brody was interesting. That would be a handy skill to have. Since
Larek seems to be the one friend they still have back there.

Perhaps the Gandarium is more like the Stones of Midnight than crystals. They seem to have weird powers.

So, if Laurie is a Dupree, then I'm guessing her aunt and uncle are as well. Am I the only one who has an instinctive distrust of anyone in the Roswell universe with a Dupree-type name?

Yes I agree Anla the name Dupree seems to arouse suspicion.

Yes you are totally right. They are great relationship episodes, just not the last great Sci Fi arc that we were promised, or the secret to how the podsters were made, as we were promised! Well that is what happens when you don't watch over the Marketing department every minute.... *sigh*

Yep, that was a reference to the Gilmore Girls. If you don't watch it, well I will sum up for you. Loralai is 32 or 33 (I think) and her daughter is 16. She has a really close relationship with her daughter and has also had the "I am not going to let you make the same mistake I did if I can possibly help it" discussion. So yeah, it sort of reminded me of Amy and Maria on the TV show because it was sooooo not like Maria and her mom in the books.

Old Candyfan - I wasn't saying that the crystals in the book were harmful to anyone but, in a rather roundabout way, to the podsters (because it connected them to the conciousness).

In fact what I was attempting to do was to point out how they were alike in that they are a threat, kinda malevelant and sorta sentient but different because the TV crystals are a threat to Humans and the Book Crystals are not, just a sorta threat to the aliens.

Hmmm.... good thought about the Gandarium being a little like the Stones of Midnight. They do sorta seem to have powers, but that sorta seems to be where the similarity ends. The Gandarium can't (at least not yet) be harnassed for use by the podsters in order to enhance their powers and, in fact, seem to be rather out of the podsters control entirely. Much more like a wild animal than a tool or a weapon.

Anla - Ooooh! Good thought about the similarties between the different ways to get advice from the folks back home and the risk involved for those who are the conduit for this info. Kinda like info but with a price, so better use it wisely.

I do wonder if they are going to eventually figure out how to "prepare" Brody for communication and be able to use this again. However my suspicion is no. It is more likely they will use this as a convenient excuse not to be able to try that again. However, I can see why the book and the TV show both needed to put up barriers to finding out information, it would basically end the show or take it in a whole new direction (more of a rebel army type show than a voyage of self discovery show) if they found out what it is they are and what they need to do. Too bad though, I really like Larek for some supremely odd reason!

I am totally with you on not wanting to trust anyone with Dupree for a last name and it is totally unjustified! I guess that's why I don't like Laurie, despite the fact that she totally seems blameless here! Ah well, old ideas die hard.... :sheepish grin:

Old Candyfan - I think it was djb from MBTV who said that they missed the Great Gatsby tryouts and while I haven't seen the show, I must admit that that puts a great image in my head! I can totally see what they are like from that description. Sometimes he really hits it on the head, ya know?

Welcome UnearthlyAngel! Glad you stopped by! It is interesting that you say you like the Liz and Max relationship better on TV than in the books because I think I have heard others who say the opposite, then again I think that the books in the latter half of the series did kinda pull away from that being the focus of the series.... I would be really interested in hearing some of the specifics as to why you prefer TV Max and Liz to book Max and Liz. I love them in both places, but I always love hearing what other folks think.

AvaSpeaks - Welcome to the thread! I can definately recommend the books, so do you really want me to spoil the end for you? I will tell you that the first book is like the pilot in many ways and Max and Liz do have a "thing" for much of the book series, although it is sort of on an off, much like the TV show.

The book series is a series of 10 books that average 150 to 175 pages in length so they each only take a day or two to read (depending on how fast you read or how much time you have to devote to it) and the series is definately finished (and we got that from the author herself, who does occasionally post on Fan Forum).

Go to the library and check out the first few books and try them out. When you've read the series we would love to hear what you think about the similarities and differences between them and the TV show!

Well I guess I should go to bed, I got in at one and I was wired, but now it is two and I think I can go to sleep now, so I will!

Night all!

Aphid - Yes, these Hybrid Chronicles aren't exactly what I was expecting, but I'm not complaining. I'm loving the focus on character interaction, and maybe we'll get to the actual science stuff next week. I like the idea of there being a price to pay for information. The best science fiction acts as a type of morality play, where the characters learn about themselves and grow, having to make choices and face the consequences. Well, the consequences of "phoning home" might be too high for them to accept.

I don't trust Laurie completely, although she seems rather harmless, in a slightly unstable, screaming at the top of her lungs, destroying Valenti's career type of way. She's probably fine, but her family may very well be another story. We'll have to wait and see.

That is true, as much as I am curious about the backstory and would like to learn more about it, you are right in pointing out that that is not and should not be the focus of the show. The heart of the show is in the journey and the ethical decisions that the podsters and their human friends need to make on the way. I also have to agree that I am not complaining either. I like the idea of a science fiction arc, but in truth, I am much happier when the show is focusing on relationships (not just romantic) so I am pretty darn happy with this arc so far. I just hope they can coherently tie up at least most of the loose ends in this last episode! It's just that CHADDster in me....

Cheers!

So you're still expecting loose ends to get tied up? Actually, that would be nice, but I wouldn't expect it anytime soon. I'm sure loose ends will be tied up eventually, but they do seem to like to drag things out. Do you think they'll ever revisit the 2 shapeshifters theory? Still, the show is answering questions much faster than the X-Files ever did. I'm sure they'll deal some with the issue of the human DNA next episode, since that was supposed to be the whole point of the Chronicles, and there's only one episode left. Regardless, I've just been loving the fact that our characters are acting like themselves again and that there's been some character development.

Well ya gotta keep that hope alive!

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
I'm sure loose ends will be tied up eventually, but they do seem to like to drag things out. Do you think they'll ever revisit the 2 shapeshifters theory? Still, the show is answering questions much faster than the X-Files ever did. I'm sure they'll deal some with the issue of the human DNA next episode, since that was supposed to be the whole point of the Chronicles, and there's only one episode left.

I'm not an X-files person, but from what I could observe, yeah, they weren't exactly on a superfast timeline either.

They were never really part of the 2 shapeshifters theory, that was basically a fan thing until MitC when it was mentioned that the dupes had a protector. So I have hopes we will see another alien and hopefully not a DuPris type (but ya never know from looking at the dupes), I guess we will have to wait and see...

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
Regardless, I've just been loving the fact that our characters are acting like themselves again and that there's been some character development.

Exactly. It was what we were screaming for about the time of WO and MTD, so I can't say I'm dissappointed. But yeah, I also hold out hope that we will see some DNA/Hybrid action at some point in the chronicles!

Cheers!

So, only six days to go until the conclusion of the Hybrid Chronicles. Even more than finding out about their human DNA, I want to find out what's up with the creepy Duprees. I want to see if their name is symbolic or just coincidence.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Good idea. I agree that Laurie seems innocent enough, and it would be awful if she ended up being evil after Michael learned to trust her and think of her as family. Of course, Book Michael did have a similar problem with Trevor, but I don't really think the show is going to go that way. I'm rather disturbed by the idea of Kivar using one of the Duprees as his temp. They're freaky enough already. But I strongly suspect that Kivar is going to show up sometime this season. I mean, he is being portrayed as their ultimate enemy, so he really ought to show up eventually so they can confront him.

Oh, and if Nicholas is the show's equivalent of the bounty hunter (only not quite as creepy) here's another similarity. The bounty hunter killed Michael in the books (at least temporarily) and Nicholas killed former-Michael (again, only temporarily).

...Oh, and if Nicholas is the show's equivalent of the bounty hunter (only not quite as creepy) here's another similarity. The bounty hunter killed Michael in the books (at least temporarily) and Nicholas killed former-Michael (again, only temporarily).Anla, I had forgotten about Trevor--only read them once then cataloged & shelved 'em in the HS library where I am to Roswell what Giles Rupert is to Vampires . Anyway, in the scene by the side of the road when Michael approaches her to "form an emotional bond" we see Laurie from the side while she has her back to Michael & Maria, and Laurie is smiling slightly. Could this indicate that she is a trickster? The tears seem real, and the Temp thing is not easily turned off & on like a light switch, but we have Grants on/off behavior, so maybe it's the effect of the Grandarium? Maybe the Grandarium is the essence of Kvar?

And nice catch on the bounty-hunter-temp-killing-Michael similarity to Nicholas-temp-killing-Michael. I find it hard to believe it wasn't at least subconsciously intentional.

I hadn't noticed Laurie smiling. Guess I'll just have to force myself to rewatch the episode in order to check that out. You're right, Grant's behavior is so wierd, and not at all like what we've seen with Brody and the other temps. Hopefully that difference actually means something, and it will be explained. I'm just skeptical about Laurie, for two reasons: One, the personality similarities between Nikolas and Nicholas lead me to believe that the choice of names is not totally coincidental, and Two, none of the newly introduced characters have been innocent lately (I'm still waiting for more information before judging Sean). However, I'm willing to believe that I might be judging Laurie too harshly, and it could be the rest of her family who are the evil ones. At any rate, we only have 3 more days until we find out!

So, then the person we saw in the promos with the blue crystals in their chest (at least I think that's what that was) would be somebody infected by the Grandarium, probably in the last stages?

The Stones of Midnight can be compared to pretty much any of the alien artifacts introduced on the show. Those were very handy little devices to have around, as long as you can overlook the whole bounty hunters issue. So versatile.

Hmmm...the CC believed it held truth when it was in fact enslaved and enslaving, maybe the book/Tess's agenda/Destiny are like that? Now I'm thinking about Mommogram's message about the 'conflict that enslaves our people.

I still hope the publishers will encourage Melinda to produce a single-volume edition of the books. With the rehashes cut out, it would probably be the length of an average bestseller. But "hope" and "expect" are very far apart right now.

Hey, anyone else out there have any thoughts on this? Old_CandyFan, love your signature:
"Having abandoned my search for the truth I am now looking for a good fantasy."

The book aliens are much more efficient. One "universal remote" artifact for all your little household chores. Has anyone ever figured out how the Stones of Midnight worked? They seem to have an awful lot of power, even more than the collective consciousness. I wonder how they were created.

Personally, I think the whole Destiny mandate is a form of enslavement. It basically wants the Pod Squad to ignore their own feelings and lives and completely submerge who they are into who they were, and who Mommy wants them to be. Despite her claim to "love them", it seems that they are being treated as tools, not individuals with dreams and feelings of their own. In that way, it's very much like the consciousness.

And I would love it if the books were reprinted in one volume. I think it would help encourage lots of older people to read the books if they weren't in those little volumes in the young adult section with the WB pictures.

Grant's Grendarium possession made me think of Dupris's "puppet-master" act with the kids in the books. Grant was able to fight off the effects of the possession at times - he was able to resist killing Isabel. Was there any time in the books when they could fight off Dupris's mind-control? The only thing close that I can think of was when Maria was able to make the connection with Michael at the end of Book 6. Even then though, it wasn't "active" resistance (doing something other than DuPris wanted them to) until the connection was formed, and they were only able to form it because DuPris messed up and gave them the opportunity.

Thanks for the compliment on my signature line shapeshifter. Sometimes a good fantasy is the only way to fight reality.

I wonder if they are ever going to acquire the ability to teleport themselves like they could in the book. That would be a great gift to have. Imagine being able to visit anywhere in the world without a boring trip.
Now that is a fantasy I could live with.

About teleporting, Liz did a form of teleporting in MITC, but I think in Blind Date we could either assume he teleported or that he manipulated some matter temporarily into a ladder--remember the "not now there isn't" line?

One more thing, I was just reading the uncut HTOHL script at http://members.fortunecity.com/wsgan/spoilers/htohl.html , was noticing how very much Grant was like Nicholas in the books:
*Isabel has an immediate attraction to both.
*Both had an alien connection.
*Valenti shoots N in the books; Valenti is with Duff who shoots Grant
*Isabel is heartbroken over both

Did Liz's body actually go to New York? I always figured it was just her "astral self", like her spirit, and was intangible. But since they haven't actually followed up on that particular plotline yet, we don't really know what powers Liz has, do we? Let's hope that storyline is investigated a bit before the end of the season.

In the books they could go almost anywhere and also take their friends with them. Not just the podsters that could teleport.

Anla - I agree that I think we have not seen the last of Nicholas and that Kivar himself will probably be heard from by the end of the season and I must admit that I would like to see some purely delicious evil character on the show, like Dupris in the books. I like shades of grey, don't get me wrong, but every once in a while, pure evil is refreshing... ya know?

Cool catch on the similarities between Nicholas and the Bounty hunters both quasi killing Micheal!

Shapeshifter - I don't know about the reissue of the books. I kinda like them as they are: nice little bitesized chunks you can finish in an afternoon or so. I think it would take a bit of rewriting to get them all in one volume and if Melinda is going to spend that much time on the series, I would love an additional book out of it instead! Perhaps an alien backstory book about the fight against the collective conciousness or an epilogue book that tells us more about what happens to the six later in life. Perhaps about whether Isabel ends up gettting back with Trevor or chooses Alex or none of the above or something. Ya know?

Though Anla does have a good point that it might encourage older readers to give it a try, since dragging my 30-year-old self over to the young adult section of the bookstore to get the books was not the highlight of my life thus far! So that does make sense from that point of view.

Anla - I almost choked on my diet coke when I read about the "universal remote" alien artifact that is the Stones of Midnight! Yup, gotta love all alien orbs stuffed into one little stone that can be camoflauged with your average jar of marbles.

I must admit that I agree with OldCandyfan love that teleportation ability the book podsters had, how convenient was that? Man it could have saved a lot of wear and tear on TV Maria's Jetta.

I like Anla's idea that the granolith might be able to be used as a transporter of sorts. I must admit that the Granolith chamber always reminded me of the transporter room anyway.... I also always had the sneaking suspicion that the reason the skins wanted it so badly is that it would transport them through some sort of wormhole type thing back home almost instantly. Perhaps that is why Larek thought it would be no problem for the podsters to go home (seeing as they had the Granolith and all, as he learned about at the summit).

Interesting parallel between destiny, the conciousness and enslavement both crushing a person's freedom and individuality yet claiming to be a good thing bequethed to them by a loving home society. An interesting difference is that Book Micheal/Isabel seem to be siding with TV Max in fighting this conciousness/destiny while Book Max and TV Micheal/Isabel while not being wholy supportive of these alien gifts, do believe in the importance of alien heritiage in general and seem to be more willing to give it a chance. Remember when TV Isabel thought she was pregnant? Micheal seemed willing to be Daddy even if he just thinks of Isabel as his sister-type person and that is about as close to accepting destiny as any of our TV podsters have gotten.

I also agree with your assessment of the situation on the home planet being more complicated than originally thought and the Mommagram aliens perhaps not being as downtrodden or sympathetic as it sounds. I agree that the writers might have something else in mind, but I hope not and actually think there is a significant chance that they might choose to take the plot in this direction. A grey situation on thier home planet gives the podsters so much more chance to grapple with moral issues and choices that it would be a very Jason Katims way to take the show (rather than have it be a striaght sci-fi take on an alien uprising). Did that make any sense?

Shapeshifter - ITA about how funny it would be if Kyle with limited quasi-alien powers had managed to have the brains to concentrate on moving the dirt and not the crystals and had actually succeeded in freeing them. But alas that was not to happen. :shrug:

On a related note, before I saw HTOHL and I saw Kyle in the cave during the promos I thought that would be an excellent time for Kyle to explore if he has any powers and discover what they are. I would have loved to see him be sucessful in working some alien voo-doo even if it didn't suceed in freeing him, but that didn't happen. I sooo want Kyle to have powers, I don't want TPTB to weasel out of this one! So I guess I was just hoping to see something. Ah well *sigh*

Anla - Good parallel between Dupris' puppetmaster work and Queenie's possession of Grant, but I don't think they were able to ever really fight Dupris off until they all worked together. I think it might actually be closer to Max's possession by the conciousness. They possessed him when they had a job for him to do or wanted something and he was able to fight them off periodically, particularly when he was moved by feelings of love. Kinda like Grant was not able to keep himself from shooting Micheal or killing Carmen, but was able to keep himself from killing Isabel (at least long enough for him to get her out of reach).

Shapeshifter - You are right. Grant and Nicholas have some eerie similarities. Cool!

Anla - I think that Isabel is dealing better with the loss of Grant because although she feels guilt, she does not feel threatened by his death and she was never really that attached to him in life. So I really don't expect that to ever be mentioned again, really. And I really don't mind that 'cause I never really liked Grant that much anyway...

Okay, no real new thoughts so far today, but I will keep the mind churning and talk to y'all later.

Cheers!

Aphid - I always love reading your responses. They're so thoughtful and detailed - I don't think you ever miss part of the discussion! I really hope that the situation on the home planet is more complicated and morally challenging. So far, with the possible exception of Larek, I haven't been terribly impressed with either the morals or the intelligence of the aliens. And while I have finally accepted the fact that the Mommygram wasn't a Tess mindwarp, it just seems too pat and convenient. Max has his sense of duty and responsibility appealed to, Isabel gets a mommy who knows she's an alien so she doesn't have to lie to, and Michael gets a grand purpose to make him feel important, while nothing of any real substance (like their home planet's name, information on who their enemies are or what they want, anything about Michael's family, and oh yeah, that there's a giant alien artifact right behind the pods that they might need to use at some point) was told to them.

I agree with you that Grendarium Grant has more similarities to possessed Max. At least we've been spared a possessed Max telling Liz that he never loved her so far on the show.

Yes! I loved that whole "working together makes us stronger" thing that the books had (and was alluded to in TEOTW). I can't tell you how thrilled I am that the promo makes it look like all 8 of the podsters are going to go to Vegas which warms my fuzzy little heart to no end.

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
Aphid - I always love reading your responses. They're so thoughtful and detailed - I don't think you ever miss part of the discussion!

Awww shucks! Thanks.

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
I really hope that the situation on the home planet is more complicated and morally challenging. So far, with the possible exception of Larek, I haven't been terribly impressed with either the morals or the intelligence of the aliens.

ITA. Man you hit a really soft spot for me. I think Larek is swiftly becoming one of my favorite characters on the show (gaining rapidly on Alex and tying with Kyle for absolute favorite character). I would love to see the podsters deal with some real morally challenging questions and some possibily contradictory information given to them by separate alien sources. Sort of along the lines of, okay, whom do I want to trust? Whom can I trust? Is there an inbetween version of this whole senario that might account for both versions of the truth or do I think that someone is just baldface lying to me? I think that would be a great place for the show to go!

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
And while I have finally accepted the fact that the Mommygram wasn't a Tess mindwarp, it just seems too pat and convenient. Max has his sense of duty and responsibility appealed to, Isabel gets a mommy who knows she's an alien so she doesn't have to lie to, and Michael gets a grand purpose to make him feel important, while nothing of any real substance (like their home planet's name, information on who their enemies are or what they want, anything about Michael's family, and oh yeah, that there's a giant alien artifact right behind the pods that they might need to use at some point) was told to them.

Wow! Good sum-up of all the reasons to hate the mommygram! I gotta admit that as much as I didn't like the conciousness at times, it never was even a tenth as annoying as the destiny book or the mommygram. So you gotta give it props for that.

I like how you point out that it is really a pat way to play on the characteristics of the podsters and fill the voids (or achillies heels) that each has in their lives. That could almost get me to start a conspiracy theory of my own that says the mommygram was forged by some evil alien with a hidden agenda.... what a cool plot twist that would be!

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
I agree with you that Grendarium Grant has more similarities to possessed Max. At least we've been spared a possessed Max telling Liz that he never loved her so far on the show.

OMG! I totally forgot about that scene in the books. Awww... that sooo hurt! Yes, you are correct, at least we just saw the homicidal side of evil.

Cheers!

Cheers!

I keep expecting the bad guys to do more psychological manipulations of the pod squad instead of just "torture and kill". So far, only the Dupes (in particular, Lonnie) have managed that. And as messed-up as the kids have been lately, you'd think their enemies would be able to find ways to make that work for them. I guess the Dupes were able to work on them better because they're alike enough to know their weaknesses.

I totally agree that I would like to see them actually having to work out whom to trust and who not to. We've seen that one time - Michael deciding not to believe Courtney's story about him being the one who could save their people by turning against Max (I was impressed that he chose to think it was just her way of dividing and conquering). I really hope that storyline is revisited. Otherwise, they just seem to buy the information they're given. Mommygram says that we were married/bethrothed? Okay. Skins say I betrayed my family and caused all of our deaths? Okay. Their acceptance of these things confuses me. They may be the truth, but how can we know?

For some reason, the destiny book doesn't bother me as much as the Mommygram. I can overlook the destiny book (it helps that the characters have apparently decided to do the same ), but I can't really block out my memory of Mommy. I can't shake the feeling that the aliens are just manipulating our heroes.

I was just thinking - in the books, they were always able to "save" the people who were possessed (by the consciousness and DuPris), but they couldn't save Grant from the queen. Guess it just goes with the more serious and deadly version of the characters and stories we've seen on the show. Although I could imagine the book characters all getting together to go to Vegas and have some fun!

I have to agree with the fact that precious few of the villians have been able to sucessfully manipulate the podsters emotionally to their advantage. OTOH, we do see the podsters effected by what they say simply because they do tend to believe what these villians say about themselves in a past life. I think the one exception to this is when Tess tells Max not to believe Nicholas when he says that Max made bad decisions in his past life. I think it also helps that Larek helped put a positive spin on it, but I almost saw Max paralized by that bit of emotional warfare and it is the only such bit of emotional warfare that has come close to working.

I find myself wondering if the podsters would have believed Dupris if Dupris had told Isabel that she had betrayed Max in a past life (putting aside the problem that in the books they did not have a past life) and I find that the answer is probably no and I think we have Ray (and Trevor) to thank for that. I think that the podsters in the book have a little bit more of a confidence in thier own instincts about their home planet than those in the TV show and I think this stems from Ray being a part of thier life for a while and the fact that thier dreams show them their home planet and they can all remember things about it. Does that make sense? I mean if you can remember the color of the sky on your home world, then why not trust your instincts about who is lying and who is telling the truth about it?

The destiny book. Well that kinda falls in the same classification as the mommygram for me since they seem to have more or less the same source. I do wonder why the podsters don't try to translate it and figure out what the rest of it says! But then agian, that is just what *I* would do. You are right though, at least the fact that they have sort of forgotten it has made it less annoying in other aspects. I also agree that mommygram and the Destiny book very well could be a slanted version of the truth being used to manipulate the podsters, so I don't take it as being unquestionable fact. OTOH, I can see why the podsters don't want to completely discount it. After all, they know so little, they really don't want to let any information alone, no matter what the source.

Okay I am rambling now, so I will shut up. Except to say good point about how the book aliens have been able to save those possessed, but they were unable to save Grant. I do think in many ways the show is a bit darker than the book series and we will probably also see this in VLV. I don't think that VLV is going to be all fun and games either. Perhaps no evil aliens or FBI, but I bet that we see more than our share of rancor between the podsters. Just a hunch based on the promo shot of Micheal and Max in jail together....

Cheers!

About Mommy: I'm thinking she could have been manipulated into recording the Gram (can't call it a CandyGram ), perhaps by threatening to kill the pods or maybe just by trickery. This would be similar to the CC again.

About Larek: I like him too, but I'm wondering if the last comment about 'having trouble keeping it's heart beating' doesn't bode well for Brody. Um, why did Ray die in the books? I can't remember.

I had forgotten about Tess telling Max not to believe Nicholas. Good for her! I'm liking Tess more and more as the season goes on. I hope nothing happens to make me start hoping she falls off a mountain again. I really think being part of the Valenti family has been the best thing possible for her. At least she has a little bit of sense where it comes to taking everything the people trying to kill you say at face value. Perhaps, like you said, it has to do with the fact that she apparently has some memories of the home planet.

And no, I don't think they would have believed DuPris for a minute. They seemed to have a fairly good grasp on the fact that he was the bad guy. The fact that he was responsible for their parents' deaths probably had something to do with that, along with the fact that they were so much closer and more emotionally stable in the books.

And I'm sure there will be problems and angst in VLV. It wouldn't be an episode of Roswell if there wasn't some emotional turmoil for our kids to go through, now would it? It still looks like it's going to be really good, though. I can't wait.

shapeshifter - I would love it if we found out that Mommy was manipulated - the Mommygram has never worked for me. I wonder if that would happen, though - right now, the show doesn't seem to be delving that deeply into the motivations of the two warring alien sides. Maybe a really good storyline where the pod squad has to deal with that information is coming up in the future.

Ray was killed while helping Isabel escape from the secret army compound after they retrieved the communication crystals from the ship in order to save Max during his akino. I was surprised that a major character died that way, with no warning (should have prepared me for Adam right there).

Interesting thought, that Mommy was good but the mommygram was bad. I love the candygram name....

Anla - Ah don't worry about the parking lot, it's an honor.

Yeah, I am one of the few weirdos who has liked Tess from the moment she stepped on the screen (but then I wasn't on FF last year, so that probably helped). I don't think I will ever want to see her fall off of a cliff, but ITA that living with the Valentis has really made her more human. Actually I kinda see a parallel with Adam and her in a way. Yes, Adam had a much bigger mountian to climb in that respect and he wasn't really taken in the way Tess was, but they both experienced the love of humans and family and it helped them become more human in the process.

Yeah. I can't wait for VLV either... only 15 hours to go!

While I agree with you that the show doesn't seem to be dealing with the backstory too much, I do think that if they find out anything about the past or the home planet, I think it would more likely be of a personal nature than a global nature. That sort of follows the pattern of self-discovery that Katims has kept so far. Actually, the books did the same thing. We never really found out about the whole struggle on the home planet from the conciousness (as we could have) but from Micheal's brother Trevor. Having a personal stake in the dilemma seems to be a Roswell trait (both books and TV show) and I can totally see that trend continue.

Good sum-up of the Ray death scene. Yeah, I shoulda been prepared for the Adam scene right there, but I wasn't. That still came as a total shock to me. Yes it was a bold move, but it was sooo sad....

Happy Roswell Monday!

I had almost forgotten how Adam came into the series and how suspicious I was of him at first, since he quickly grew into one of the my favorites. I know some readers disliked him because of the whole Liz thing, but I never did. He was so sweet. I was so sad when he died, I actually cried. I used to do that all the time when I read a book, but not so much anymore, so you can see how much his funeral affected me. But getting back to the point - you're right. Being accepted into the group and given a home allowed both Tess and Adam to "loosen-up", to learn to be themselves (and who that is) and to gain a sense of security. Gotta love Tess mocking Kyle and playing mind-games with him with the remote control.

I really want the kids to learn more about what they were like back in their past lives, but at the same time I'm afraid of them finding out. Does that make any sense? On the one hand, I think they need this information in order to function effectively, but on the other hand, I really don't think it's going to be good info. And they've already had so much to deal with this year. What is it with WB shows and all this angst? Still, tonight's episode looks like it'll at least have some fun, along with the prerequsite Max/Michael disagreement (just guessing from the jail scene in the promo, but it seems likely ).

Actually, I am not sure that Valenti taking Tess in would be viewed in that light until after the whole Isabel affair. I could see that before the townsfolk had something to dish about it was just a respected town Sherriff opening his home to a girl who's father abandoned her. After all, that is kinda what it looks like. But yeah, I think they are going to assume the townsfolk don't make a big issue out of this and I really don't mind that one.

I do remember being kinda suspicious of Adam not because I thought he was evil, but that I thought he might not have the mental wherewithal to resist Valenti and not work against the podsters. You know? After all Valenti was the only father he has known ever since he was born. To betray him had to have been a really hard thing to do no matter how badly Valenti treated him. Ya know?

I totally know what you are saying about wanting them to find out about thier past and not wanting them to find out. Like in the books, I have the feeling that they are not going to find things as black and white as the mommogram spelled out. In fact I would be horribly dissappointed if they did! So I gotta go with hoping it will be a slow process and something tells me I'm going to get my wish... That is assuming we get season 3.

See ya on the other side of Viva Las Vegas!

Aphid - I was suspicious that Adam might enjoy using his powers and killing too much. I was moderately freaked with the whole trying to kill the rabbit incident, and then there was the whole Valenti as a pile of ash incident, followed closely by the trying to kill Max incident. An awful lot of incidents crammed together in a short book! I truly believed that it was Adam who killed Valenti. I just thought he had been so traumatized by growing up in the government compound and being lied to by "Daddy" that he snapped. I was relieved to find out about DuPris later, and that it wasn't Adam's fault.

Viva Las Vegas! Viva Las Vegas!

Did anyone notice the sim between Laurie Depree, and our evil alien Dupris? Sound similar, her aunt and uncle were certainly evil.

Did anybody think that Alex at the end of this ep was very much like the Alex we saw later in the books? His attitude towards Isabel while comforting her about her failed fling with whatever-his-name-was reminded me so much of their talks in the books after he came back through the wormhole and they were getting back to being friends post-breakup. Let's get Alex and Isabel back to being close (she needs him to help her through everything that's been going on), and then hopefully they can become more.

Books: Maria goes off to retrieve Alex and make sure he helps them find Isabel when she runs off during the akino. She finds that he's in a movie theater with some girl whose name I can't remember. Not letting a little thing like the lack of a ticket or the knowledge of which theater Alex is in bother her, she bullies the usher into letting her in and screams out his name in the different theaters until he comes out.

TV: Maria is determined to bail her friend Max out of jail (and Michael, too, if they have enough money). Kyle does not want to leave the casino and donate his money to the get-Max-Evans-out-of-jail-fund (maybe Maria should have left out the part about Max while talking to Kyle and just told him that they had to bail out Michael). So Maria resourcefully lies, stating that Kyle is a recovering addicted gambler, and gets the bail money.

I actually think that Maria has developed into the best member of the Pod Squad for thinking on her feet and refusing to let obstacles get in her way. (Although a part of me is fairly certain that Tess managed to get in to one of the other casinos - I don't think she would have given up so easily)

BTW, The character of Alex's dad in the books follows the same story arc as Valenti in the show.

Well, , gnite all!

BTW, The character of Alex's dad in the books follows the same story arc as Valenti in the show.

Good points - although there was that time when Max shapeshifted so that he could spy on Liz during her date in one of the earlier books. Remember, Liz could tell it was him because she recognized his eyes. Very romantic (and if I recall correctly, very annoying to her ). TV Liz doesn't seem to be able to do that, though, or she would have had an easier time recognizing Future Max instinctively (and maybe wouldn't have gone for that little trip to the carnival with Nacedo-Max).

And I sure wish I'd saved the thread where we posted all the lines that were the same in the books and the shows.

ShortStuff - Welcome to the discussion. Yes, Valenti was killed by Adam in the books, or at least Puppet Adam being controlled by Dupris. Personally, I would like to see Adam pop up on the show, because I loved him in the books. I thought he was sweet and a really good friend to Liz and Michael.

Aurelius - Welcome. I thought that the character of Adam fit in better with the characters in the books, than a Tess-like alien would have, at least the way Tess was when she started on the show. Good point about Michael being so much more light-hearted in the books than on the show. If you read through the earlier pages of this discussion, we spent some time talking about the differences in the characters. I think we spent the most time on Michael and Isabel. I'd love to hear your opinions on how the characters are the same and different. I hope you enjoy reading the conclusion of the series - by the time I got to Book 8 I was so hooked I finished the series all in one night.

I may be in the minority, but I don't really like Sean. I don't completely trust him, and I really don't see a point to his character (making Max jealous does not count as a meaningful storyline to me ). But I don't hate him or want him gone like I did Grant. I'm willing to give him a chance, but as of right now I don't see him as being very much like Adam. There are superficial similarities, as you've pointed out, but I get such different emotional reactions to the two characters. Adam was just such a sweetheart. Maybe when they finally decide to tell us what Sean did that got him arrested, I'll be able to be more decisive regarding my feelings for his character.

Sorry I've been AWOL for a while, but limited time has me cutting back on my posting

Anyways, I wanted to give you guys a link to a fanfic I read this weekend. Now, I never, EVER, recommend fanfic, but I just loved this one. Someone decided to continue what they thought would happen after the last scene in Book 10. The author wanted to address what happens to Kyle after the series ends, and see how Michael and Maria's relationship changes now that they've admitted their feelings for one another. I thought it was really well written, and was very true to the books.

Anyways, it's called Book 11: New Understandings. Here's the link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TopFanFiction/message/1843

Unfortunately, it's on Yahoo Groups, so to read it you have to subscribe. But it only takes about 30 seconds to do it, and it's totally worth the hassle. Or, it's going to be posted on the Crashdown next update, so you could wait a month and read it there.

In the books, Ray manges to get 3 pods away and hide them before the army shows up - Nikolas's, Michael's, and the one holding Max and Isabel. He returns and finds that the army has reached the crash site and has taken the pod which we later learn held Adam. Do the books ever mention whether he tries to rescue Adam from the army? I don't remember any such attempt, and I wonder why. In the show, the army manages to get all the pods. Why? Were Nacedo and the other (Tic Tac?) injured somehow and unable to grab the pods and go? Or were they perhaps not even on the ship at the time and didn't show up until later? At any rate, they do go on a rescue mission and, with Hal's help, get the pods all away from the army (apparently much more efficient than Ray ).

Next issue to consider: In the books, Adam is apparently kept someplace safe until he emerges from the pod and is then raised in relatively comfortable surroundings. While he's deprived emotionally, he is taken care of physically. The book army apparently decided that an alien is a valuable commodity and should be cared for. On the show, we see that at least one pod has been damaged, perhaps by the army doctors. Now, the question is, were they going to destroy the pods in an effort to see what was in them (using the coffins to bury them when done) or were they going to use the coffins to transport the pods to someplace more secure, where they would keep them until hatching, like they did Adam in the books? Or maybe a combination of the two - since they had more than one set of pods, they could experiment on one while keeping the other safe.

Back to Ray, why didn't he go after Adam's pod? Did he not know where the army took it? Or perhaps Ray wasn't capable or willing to go into the army compound and kill humans in order to rescue the pod, as the tv shapeshifters obviously were.

Oh, well. This is what happens when I don't get new episodes - I start to tear apart details and think about things way too much.

I agree that Alex at the end of the episode reminded me of Alex at the end of Book 10. However I did notice that VLV Alex seemed to bristle at the idea that Isabel might have slept with Dave and I have the feeling that this is for more reasons than being a friend of hers. One difference between the two Alexes is that, despite all of Alex's coolness, I think that TV Alex still holds out hope that Isabel is going to start up thier relationship again, despite his "long distance thing" with the girl from Sweden.

As far as Maria is concerned, I do see the similarity in those particular incidences, but on the whole I thought of Book Maria as much softer and more nieve than TV Maria. However, you are right, as the book series and the TV series progress, they seem to become more and more alike.

Shapeshifter - Yup, we did a whole riff on the way that Alex's dad and TV Valenti were rather alike (that's what happens when you are dealing with a book series that has finished). As for the similarity of desguises, good point! I always thought that the book podster's shapeshifting ability was way more useful than they thought. I loved it when each one of them went into the bars shapeshifted, that was totally cool. It actually reminded me mostly of the cut scene where Tess and Liz get mistaken for hookers. In a similar way, Lonnie and Rath pretending to be Isabel and Micheal kinda reminded me of Trevor posing as Max, though (obviously) without the malice behind it.

Anla - True about Book Liz being able to tell Max when he shapeshifted from his eyes. I think that Max and Liz's relationship in the books was more of a mystical/fantasy nature than it is in the show. In the show, Liz does have the ability to tell that Nascedo is not Max by kissing him and the flashes give them a bond, but I don't think that TPTB could get away with the whole Molecules finding each other thing that Melinda got away with in the books. Things between Max and Liz were just more mystical in the books, ya know?

Shapeshifter - Good points made by you and Anla about the war on the home planet thing. While there was no destiny in the books, but but there was a war on the home planet that I think does kinda parallel that same problem because of Trevor's involvement with the other side of that war, well at least until things started getting really grey. In the book the podsters stake out a moral middle ground and end up seeing evil on both sides of the war on thier home planet. OTOH, one difference is that the closest thing we have to a king in the books is Trevor (Micheal's brother) who feels compelled to go back to his home planet after the war and help the rebel movement bring order back to the home planet. I wonder how the TV show folks are going to deal with the fact that it will be Max who is in that position at the end of the series. The only solution I can see is that Liz will go with him (and possibily all 8 of them) and that would be very different from the books.

I hold out hope that TPTB will also have the podsters realize that things at home are not exactly black and white and that perhaps Zan was not the leader of a race of woebegone underlings, but something else a little less sympathetic. Well at least I can dream... As Anla pointed out, I don't think we will be finding out what happened there very soon.

Shortstuff & Aurelius - Welcome to the thread! I know that the similarities are rather limited, but I keep thinking of Sean as Adam. I don't really know why, but I would like to see Sean as a good guy, though I don't want to see him as an alien. I also see a little bit of Adam in Tess in that both of them had some way to go before they became totally human, so in a way, I don't really miss Adam in the TV show as much as I missed Tess in the books.

Yup, like Anla I also read both 9 and 10 in the same night, so they all blur together for me, but it is good, I don't think you will be dissappointed.

Shapeshifter - Good point about Grant being rather like Adam in that they were both puppets for evil forces and did bad things as a result. However there is a difference between Book Valenti and his counterpart Pierce's death that seems to be a rather telling difference between the books and the show. On the show Micheal kills Pierce whereas in the books Valenti was killed by Dupris. In the books the podsters and friends don't kill anyone (or at least not that I remember), but on the TV show they do (if only in self defense). It does rather make the TV show characters a bit less innocent and nieve than the book characters and the general feel of the show a little darker. I just find that interestingly telling.

Anla - Interesting thought that the Micheal Worshippers might be, like Dupris' rebels doing the right thing in the wrong way - with all these good intentions, but with disasterous results.

I must admit that I see very little in Sean not to make me like him. I don't know what he was in juvie for, but he doesn't seem to have the hard personality of a boy gone bad and the sense of humor and tolerance with which he deals with Maria really makes me trust that Sean wouldn't really want to hurt any of the podsters. I dunno, yes Sean and Adam are very different people, but I still like them both, even if it is in different ways. But I totally agree with you, if the whole point of Sean was to make Max jealous, that is no plot line worth anything. I think the Sean storyline has more to do with Liz appreciating Max and growing emotionally than anything else and I don't think we have seen the last of him, or at least I hope not!

Peej - Welcome to the thread and come back soon! I don't remember when I read the books, but I do remember that it was during a hiatus as well. I guess it just makes sense. I guess that is what Roswell withdrawel will do to you because I can tell you it was no easy feat getting me to go into the young adult section of the bookstore to get them. But I did it....

Roswellian - Wow, I am really not a fan fic girl, if I have time to do this type of stuff I would much rather be posting, but I am glad that someone adressed those issues because I always worried about Kyle in the books and Micheal and Maria's relationship really did seem so young in book 10 (despite all the background). Thanks for dropping by!

Anla - Good thought about comparing the crash lore. I don't know whether we have mentioned the bendy metal being in both the TV show and the books, but it is a rather striking commonality, particularly because both the books and the TV show are rather sparse with information about the crash itself.

I didn't think about it before, but I do wonder if Ray tried to get in and find Adam all those years. Perhaps he tried, but was never able to succeed. Either that or perhaps he assumed that the Army would have killed him and that there was no point after 10 years or so, after all, the Ray we find in the books is kinda defeated in a sad sort of way and resigned to living on earth even if he really didn't want to.

I don't think that the coffins in the TV show were meant for the pods. They ordered 2 or 4 if I recall (2 is the number of bodies they found and then they had an extra 2 aliens that could die, so I don't really remember). Plus, the coffins were 4 feet tall as well, much to large for the fetuses. I think that even if the army did intend to kill the fetuses, they would not have buried them in the coffins. Perhaps their eventual plan on the TV show was to have one or two of the glowy aliens raise one or two of the pods while they dissected the others. It is really hard to believe that with them looking so human they would simply want to exterminate them, but then again, the army is not made up of good guys in either the books or the show.

I think you have a point about how the book Ray was possibily just unwilling to kill people. He is so different from Nascedo that I could see that, although I think that the sheer enormity of the task is probably the more likely reason he didn't go after Adam.

What I wonder is (now that my memory of the books is fading), why didn't Ray raise the podsters? We never really got a good explination about why Nascedo didn't get to the cave in time to get Micheal, Isabel and Max, but did we get an explination as to why Ray missed Nickolas and our three?

Yep, I think there is much tearing apart that is going to happen on FF in the next few months. Hopefully the analysis of the reruns will help us get through!

See ya all later!

I have to say that I like Valenti as father figure better than Liz's father. Then again, I love TV Valenti. Of course, Valenti has the added bonus of knowing the truth about the aliens, which Liz's father didn't. I like her father better after they finally talk about Rosa's death and work out some of their issues. I understand why he acts the way he does towards Liz, I just didn't like it (although it was a very realistic subplot which added a lot of dimension to Liz's character).

I agree with you that TV Alex still has hope that he and Isabel will get back together. And I'm not sure that Isabel has completely given up the idea of their possible reunion. I saw the way she was looking at him. I really want Isabel to get over some of her issues, or at least stop going about dealing with things in a self-destructive manner. Poor Isabel. At least what's his name at the wedding wasn't as icky as Grant. But he's nowhere near as adorable as Alex!

I wonder what the show will do if it ever reaches the point of having to deal with the fight on the home planet by actually going to the home planet to fight. There was never really any question of Max returning in the books, but you're right about him feeling he's obligated to go back in the show. Max's sense of responsibility again! It's going to get him in serious trouble one of these days.

I don't actually dislike Sean, I'm just skeptical of him. Most of the new characters this season have been untrustworthy, and I still want to know what he did to get arrested. Is that really so much to ask from the show? We know he was arrested, so why don't we know what he did? Hopefully, that little tidbit will be shared soon. Sean does actually seem much more laid-back and easy-going than our other little juvenile criminal, Michael. Sometime over the hiatus, I'm going to try and count all the times Michael has broken-and-entered. He's getting better at it - he hasn't been caught in a while.

I suspect that Ray simply didn't know where Adam was, or how to find him. I can't believe that the man who died in order to save Max would just sit back and do nothing all those years while one of the aliens was being held prisoner if he knew where to find him.

I went back to my books in order to find the answer to your question concerning why Ray didn't raise the podlings. He tells Max and Michael that he was badly wounded when Dupris attacked and killed everybody else. When he came to, the ship had crashed, and Ray started to move the pods. When he came back for the last one, the army had already arrived and was taking it. I'm guessing that Ray was too weak from his injuries to follow. Then he says he stayed away from the pods because he couldn't be sure if the army knew about him or suspected him, and he didn't want to cause any more danger for them. Instead he stayed around, making himself available in case they ever started looking for ties to their past. It sounds more like I imagine Tic Tac in the show than Nacedo.

While reading that part again, I came across something interesting. Ray tells the boys that the stowaway died in the crash. Michael had earlier read his aura and found that he was a personality with nothing to hide, so it seems that Ray believes he was telling the truth. I wonder why he thought the stowaway was dead, when he obviously wasn't. And if Dupris was wounded that badly, how did he escape the army forces?

about counting the number of breaking and enterings that Micheal has done. I'm not sure that even I am that obcessed!

I guess staying away from the pods so they wouldn't be suspected by the army is okay, but he is a shapeshifter after all, he could easily evade them. Then again, perhaps he was envisioning a life on the run rather like Nascedo and Tess on the TV show (constantly moving and changing identities) and perhaps he didn't want them to grow up like that. I guess I could see that.

You are right about perhaps that is why Tic Tac never came in to take care of the podsters and when I imagine Tic Tac as a good guy I totally see the sad repression and isolation that I see in Ray. Though it also may be that Tic Tac was busy raising the dupes....

Good point about Ray thinking that Dupris was dead. The only thing that I can think of is that Dupris wanted to get away and used the stone of Midnight to do some Tess-like mind warp and make Ray think that he was dead, then hit the road before the army came.

You know, I wonder if Ray could teleport? Maybe when he was injured in the crash some of his abilities were lost and this is one of them. Do you remember Ray teleporting at any point?

Anyway, I am impatiently awaiting the return of roswell... *sigh* See you soon!

Oh, yeah, I'm obsessed. I used to deny it, but I've given up, especially now that I've reached Addicted Fan status. If even Fan Forum knows it, why should I keep up the pretense? And you don't even want to know how many times I've rewatched the opening scene of Heatwave.

My mind gets all confused about the Tic Tac issue. I am firmly convinced that there are two shape-shifters out there (no matter what the show might tell us ). I always got more of a benevolent protective feeling from Tic Tac than Nacedo. Just a feeling. But if he raised the Dupes, then what happened to make them go so wrong? Except for poor Ava, who I really hope is managing okay on her own, and hasn't become road kill thanks to Lonnie and Rath.

I can't recall Ray ever teleporting, but if the others could do it, he probably could as well. Plus, he had that really neat trip of freezing time around a person in a small area that he used on Valenti. That took a lot of power, though.

My quick response to this is: Elsevan Dupris.
Back with more in depth thoughts later....

I love your new avatar! How long have you had it? (I'm not really observant about such things ) Very Roswellian.

So, you think Nicholas was an okay alien at one point while under Kivar's leadership, but he's become a scheming little psychopath since being down on earth? Or at least that's a possibility? It does put an entirely different spin on the fight against the Skins. But Nicholas killed Former Michael. I don't know if I can accept that as the actions of a good being.

Yep, just got the avatar last night (I finally reached 500 posts). In fact, you now qualify for a custom avatar yourself if you want one. I am quickly finding out how to do it, so if you want pointers, PM me.

quote:Originally posted by Anla:
So, you think Nicholas was an okay alien at one point while under Kivar's leadership, but he's become a scheming little psychopath since being down on earth? <snip> But Nicholas killed Former Michael. I don't know if I can accept that as the actions of a good being.

I don't think that Nicholas was ever a good alien. Likewise, I don't think that Elsevan Dupris was ever a good alien either. He simply rose to the top of a movement that happened to champion a good cause.

I think that it is possible that Nicholas could have been looking for power and when he was unable to get it in the government that existed he fell in with a cause that just happened to be good. In both cases, they are motivated by a need for power and their methods for obtaining it are cruel and ruthless.

I think that were this the senario, Nicholas might think inwardly that Kivar was a silly and weak leader, but not show his true self in front of him because he know that that would cause Kivar to demote him.

Does that make sense?

This is a really cool thread. I love reading a book after I have seen the movie. I really enjoy getting new insight on the characters.

I am a huge fan of the show, should I read the books too?

Absolutely!

Things to be warned about:

The story is very different.
The characters look different and have different powers, origins and abilities.

Basically the pilot of the TV show is much the same, but from there on it is quite different. Also some of the main characters have differnt sides to their personalities as well (Valenti is completely different!). Assumptions about who the podsters are and what the nature of thier alienness is is rather different as well as later characters in the books.

Yup, some big differences, but despite that, some really interesting parallels and good books besides.

Enjoy!

Melinda

Well I guess that's just proof that the best authors make mistakes. After all, when you have thousands of fans obcessing over every detail of the book, something like that is bound to be found. I am actually impressed that we haven't found more of them (you should see the CHADs thread for the TV show, we often remark that the books have explinations for lots of situations that make lots more sense).

OTOH, this is not a completely unretractable little oops. As I said, I think that it is possible that Ray tried to get Adam out of Army clutches, but was unsucessful and/or was led to believe that Adam's pod had been destroyed by the army (though the latter may not work - it depends on what Ray tells the podsters about Adam before we see him, I'll have to go back and look at that sometime).

But either way, thanks for popping in and please do so again! We are all fans here and love to hear what you have to say.

Cheers!

Aphid - From what I recall when I reread that scene a few days ago, Ray just mentions that there was another pod. He went back for it after moving the others, but the army was already there when he returned. I don't remember off the top of my head anymore mention of that pod until we meet Adam, and by that time Ray was dead. If I do read the books again, I'll pay attention for that.

Yeah, I am probably going to reread the series during the hiatus too.

I like your new avatar! Yep, I'm a bit of a cliffie, but I have lots of candy friends with great avatars. They are still cool either way...

Why do you think DuPris was able to control them even before he got the Stone of Midnight from them? Was that ever really explained? We never saw the Pod Squad being able to control others like that. Of course, their powers could have been diluted due to growing up on earth, but I don't recall Ray or Trevor ever doing that either? Did they, and I just am not remembering it right now?

About Ray, I was intrigued by the revelation that he was trapped in the Collective Consciousness all along. But then how come he wasn't all zoned out like Max?

i think TPTB are trying to bring the TV series more inline with the books..
just a feeling.. and also im a spoiled little girl
i could be wrong though....
i mean.. theres obviously stuff that is very different between the two.. but don't you think, that when a movie or a tv series is based off a book, the general jist of what happens and the ending have to be the same??

a thought from my candy happy, dreaming brain....

roswell_honey - Welcome to the discussion! I think the sense of friendship that we saw in VLV was definitely similar to the group dynamics from the books. I could imagine Michael and Alex (alas, not Kyle, since he's in a mental hospital) in the books sitting in the back of class, bored, talking, and throwing wads of paper at each other.

I was thinking some more about the mind control powers that DuPris has in the books. Was it ever really explained on the show how Tess managed to make Max kiss her that first time outside the Crashdown in T,L,V? We know she can make people see things that aren't really there, but can she also control people? Or was that more a case of alien hormones than mind control?

My explanation for why the consciousness took control of Max but not Ray is basically the same as Anla's. Max was the first being connected to the consciousness to see the lost Stone of Midnight. I never thought of the consiousness as routinely controlling the living beings connected to it. (I never thought of the consciousness as necessarily all evil either. In a lot of ways I think it could be amazing to be connected to the consciousness, except for the potential abuse of power.) But the Stone was of such vital importance, that the overwhelming number of beings that made up the consciousness would do anyting to get it back, including taking over Max and even trying to use him to kill. If Ray had seen the Stone first (or if he'd managed to recover the Stone), I think the consciousness would have taken him over too, if he resisted returning it.

Another good question that has come up is why the consciousness was so caught up in experiencing the sensations of Earth through Max when they'd have had years of this through Ray. My thought (which didn't make it onto the pages of the book--another ooops) was that because Max was born on Earth, the only being connected to the consciousness who was, his experiences were even more vivid to the other beings than Ray's were.

Bye for now.

Melinda

I found your comment about the consciousness not being true evil to be interesting. We had been talking about how the situation with the consciousness and the rebellion on the home planet didn't seem to be as clear-cut as matters usually are in books and tv. Personally, I loved the story where Michael had to choose between all his conflicting loyalties and decide what was right for him, not necessarily what others might think right. Did he trust Trevor his brother by birth or Max the brother he was raised with? I was left with the impression that the kids didn't necessarily decide to fight the consciousness because it was "evil" but because they wanted to save Max. Their love for each other was the theme that jumped out of the books for me. (But I do think DuPris was just eeeevil. )

Done babbling now - I just really loved the series.

BTW Melinda, I lost the timeline you had posted on an earlier thread of when you wrote the books in relation to the show's airing (a hard drive crash at home and at work and a Wipe Out at my ISP and the Crashdown all within a few weeks!). I think it was that book 7 was published before the Pilot aired, and then you finished book 10 around the time of Destiny. If you check back in here, maybe you can correct this. I'm really bummed that I lost the copy of the thread where we found lines that were the same in the books and the show. Ah well, in the digital future we'll probably be able to put scripts and book text into a program that will do it for us. In fact, I have a feeling that the software being honed for Napster's compliance with current court orders could be used in that way as well.

Thanks especially for clarifying that the CC wasn't all evil. I never thought that they were--rather they were just making a value judgement in that case that seemed wrong.

Anla - I did notice that Adam was taken over by DuPris without the benefit of the stone. However I also noticed that it happened after he was talking with Adam in the Cafe (the podsters didn't know he was harmful then, I believe). Perhaps DuPris did something to Adam or created some sort of connection at that point that helped him take Adam over. Then again, he was able to take over Isabel too, so I am kinda at a loss for that one.

About the stone. We know that it was Nikolas' ring and Ray hypothesises that it somehow got attached to Nikolas' pod, but I wonder why the bounty hunters never came after him? Do we think that he wore it but somehow never actually tapped into it's power? Perhaps aliens have to make a concious decision to use the power of the ring. It just kinda struck me.

Roswell_honey - Welcome! I hope that the TV series takes a more relationshippy (including frienships in here folks) turn as opposed to the sci fi and I do think that in that way it would move more towards the books. OTOH, I don't think TPTB can get away from the fact that they have embroiled the podsters in a war by making them exiled royalty. The TV podsters have been forced to kill and act offensively and have generally been exposed to much more ugliness than the book podsters and it really gives the show a very different feel.

Anla - I like your idea that Ray was not controlled by the conciousness because he was not needed by them. Similarly, I like your idea about Max not being taught how to deal with the conciousness and thus it was creating more problems for him in daily life than it did for Ray. I think that Ray must be much more effective at turning the conciousness down or at multi-tasking than Max was. I like to think that Max would have not spent the day at Target playing with a see and say if Ray had been able to coach him in how to live with the conciousness in his head. You know?

OTOH, I can see the temptation for Ray to slip into the conciousness and live on his world vicariously through others just like the koosh ball hordes were living through Max. Perhaps after the crash, Ray went through a time where he did do this, rather like a person deep in depression who lives on welfare and barely eats or gets out of bed. Perhaps that's how he came to the conclusion that he had to live on earth and in the moment and that's why he encourages the podsters to do the same.

Shapeshifter & Anla - As far as Max's kissing Tess being one of Tess' Tessovisions (great term shapeshifter!), I really doubt that. I tend to think that the Chemistry room kiss was either that or a waking dream (like MIcheal and Isabel had) but the rain scene kiss seemed different. Anla, I tend to agree with you, I personally think that another force like in SH was causing Max to feel attracted to her because of the whole Destiny thing. In SH Max liked the effect because he really wanted to be with Liz, but with Tess it was not fun because he didn't want to be with Tess. In short, I think that Tess may have used her powers on Max, but I don't think she did in that scene, as much as my dreamer heart doesn't like that. I think Max did really kiss Tess, but I don't think he felt like he had a choice.

Melinda - Thanks for dropping by again and giving us more insight into what is going on with Ray, Max and the conciousness. I agree that the conciousness could be totally cool, if it didn't seem to have so much power over it's members. I must admit that I am also troubled by the fact that destroying the conciousness would kill those connected to it. Does that mean that when Trevor went home the only people alive on his planet were the members of the Kindred? That sounds like such a mess!

Isabel - I think that TPTB must have thought that they needed to change Liz's last name because Liz is not hispanic in the TV show as she is in the book (just look at her TV parents to verify that one). As for why they changed Alex's last name? Beats me. However it is a noteworthy thing that Alex's dad is totally different in the show than in the book so perhaps that had something to do with it.....

Anla - Great point about how Tess and Adam are alike in that they both want to be included in the group and how they originally were made a part of the group simply because they were aliens and because they had rather advanced powers. Another similarity that struck me was that both Tess and Adam found out that the men who had raised them had been killers or not so nice people. Granted Nascedo had never done anything to Tess like Valenti did to Adam, but both pairs had some harsh moments of reckoning after they met the podsters because of what that reavealed about their violent tendancies in the past.

I also think it is significant that both Tess and Adam never had much of a home life and that both father figures died in a relatively short amount of time after we met them. Plus it seems that both developed feelings for the people who took them in. Tess is developing feelings for Kyle and Adam developed feelings for Liz (who put Adam up in the shed in the backyard until Micheal got the UFO museum).

Can we come up with any Trevor/Laurie comparisons? Despite the fact that both seemed to be sibling figures for Micheal, I am sorta drawing a blank here.

Well anyway, lunch is over and I should be getting back to work.
Cheers!

Another excellent question: Why didn't the Bounty Hunters go after Nikolas? Maybe he didn't ever use the ring, but that seems unlikely since Maria ended up activating the ring totally by accident when she didn't even know what it was. Then again, I've never really understood what the deal was with the Bounty Hunters. They were supposed to kill whoever had the ring in order to regain it, but they made a deal somewhere along the lines with DuPris. Maybe they made a deal with Nikolas. There was a lot about Nikolas that we never had a chance to learn, due to Valenti murdering him. He seemed much more in tune with his alien side than Michael/Max/Isabel, but why? Maybe he knew something about the ring that they didn't, and so was able to avoid the Bounty Hunters.

I would really love to know more about what Ray did after the Crash. It must have been horrible for him, trying to deal with the fact that he was stuck on the home planet (although I still think he dealt with it much better than Nasedo did). Why do you think the aliens on the home planet never opened a wormhole to get him back home? They were able to do it for Alex. Poor guy. TV Alex seems to have had a better time on his vacation than Book Alex did.

About Nikolas and the ring. Hmmm... Perhaps there is more to his story about why he came to Roswell than he was telling. Perhaps Nikolas has been in contact with DuPris for some time, or simply watching him from afar (since I am pretty sure that if DuPris had known Nikolas had the ring he would have killed Nikolas himself).

I tried to come up with a wacky theory about how Nikolas was DuPris' son, but I keep coming back to the fact that if DuPris knew that Nikolas had the stone, he would have it long ago and be plotting to get the other two and not worrying about the podsters.

Okay, let's try this, perhaps the Bounty hunters had some familial relationship with Nikolas. Not that they are the same species, but perhaps they could sense that those who hired them were related to Nikolas and would be mighty PO'd if they killed him. You know, perhaps Nikolas is royalty... Well it's possible!

Good point about the wormhole. In fact, open the wormhole in the cave and the whole series never happens. Perhaps Adam is the key to all this. Perhaps Ray never agreed to go back because he knew that Adam was stuck here and by the time the podsters hatched, he felt they needed to stay. Hmmm... well it's a thought anyway, one that might need more thought, but a start.

Well, since we're thinking up theories about why they didn't open up a wormhole, how about this? (Crazy theory alert ) They are a rather peaceful species, and the death of so many of their own on the ship at the hands of a traitor depressed them so much that the whole Collective Consciousness was in shambles afterwards. They weren't able to come together and create the wormhole. And then, by the time they did, Ray had learned to distance himself some from the consciousness as a protective device to adjust to life on earth and did not want to connect with them deeply enough to get the wormhole open. Plus, he had discovered the wonders of Graceland, and did not want to return to a planet without Elvis. Ray did say he enjoyed humans. I could see him growing used to life on earth and wanting to stay there.

I like your theory, too, though, that he didn't want to leave without Adam. It makes him seem very protective, which he was, from a distance and then up close once contact was made.

Interesting. I like Brody, but am not completely certain that I trust Larek (but I think I've already admitted to being distrustful of all the new characters this season ). I might have to check that out.

By the way, we're almost at 250 posts. Aphid, are you planning on starting a new thread?

Good thought about the fact that the conciousness might have been in mourning and unable to create the wormhole. :o) OTOH, perhaps it is connected to the, shall we say, less sympathetic side of the conciousness after all.... perhaps the conciousness didn't take him over, but also wouldn't bring him back until he found the stone and after 50 years of looking for it he just kinda gave up and decided to accept that he was never going to be able to go back.

I also think that Ray might have accepted this fate because he felt it was his duty to raise the children of his friends as well (or at least watch over them from afar). This would explain why he stayed even if he didn't think that Adam was alive. Although the wonders of Graceland could be why Ray did not plunge himself into a conciousness coma in an attempt to live vicariously through others on his world.

Shapeshifter - No, No! Sacreledge that's what that is!! Larek is my boy, my man, my idol... never!!! Never, never, never!!

::pant:: ::pant:: ::pant::

Okay yeah, it would be kinda cool for a supposed good guy to be feeding them lies about their home planet (or at least a slanted version of the truth), but they have heard so many tainted versions of the truth that I would really like to have just one person whom they could actually trust. After freaking out about telling them to get off the planet, he did calm down and actually give them useful information.

How did Larek make you think of the CC? I think the thing that really freaked me out about the CC is it's ability to suck you away from everyday life. Is it the ability to get info on demand? That is an interesting parallel if nothing else...

Anla - Yep, I was noticing that we have finally come within a few posts of filling our first thread... woo hoo! I am ready to start up the new one either tonight or tomorrow. Totally awsome.

So, basically all they had to do was move Max's comatose body downstairs and play some Elvis music off the jukebox, and Max would have been okay?

We'll have to watch Brody in the coming episodes and see if he starts making long trips to the toy section of Target. Seriously, I would like to have Larek turn out to be a good guy, if for no other reason than I want the kids to get some actually accurate information about the situation back on the home planet (which I note they have still not asked the name of). I'm suspicous, though. And certainly not quite as vehement about Larek's innocence as you are.

CompareAndContrastPart2

Anla - I will respond to you on part 2!

See y'all there!