As I follow it, K'var and his Skins have overthrown Max and his; on the grounds that he is incompetent or something. (I'm thinking Jimmy Carter; a fine man but a terrible leader.) Since K'var is sitting on Max's throne, both parties seem to be royalist in organization. Michael's people don't seem to have done much, but perhaps Courtney has helpful friends. She seems nice.

On the other hand, K'var's people seem to be truly evil. They seem to understand that the podsters do not remember anything of their previous life on Twilo; yet they still want to exterminate them anyway. (Ex-ter-min-ate! Ex-ter-min-ate! Didn't someone ask for Daleks? )

Further evidence of the K'varists' cruelty is in that they seem to alternate between bringing "Valandra" back to be K'var's bride, and assaulting her. I believe that she is to be brought back as a mock bride: a trophy of war, to be mocked and abused. (It would be unsafe to rough up the real wife of your ruler that way.) I also suspect that it was Vilandra who was betrayed: she was used by K'var to gain some advantage, then discarded. Nice people, these...

It's also worth noting that the K'varists do go on about class warfare. ("Your kind doesn't rule anymore", "If The People could only see you now", etc.) Is it any wonder that Congresswoman Whittier was a Democrat?

On the other hand, Michael's Skins don't seem to want power for power's sake. They just want a better leader than Max. {I can understand that... } It's possible that, in this life, Max will learn to be a better leader. Or, that he will abdicate to Michael, and run off with Liz. Maria would keep Michael in line. (Shouting in his ear- ROTFLMAO ) In any event, they may be willing to help the podsters as a group, since they both seem to be at odds with the K'varists. "The enemy of my enemy, is my friend."

Aha! A revolution of sorts. Well, we did get a few more answers to our questions this ep. But now I have even more.

I noticed the same talk about class warfare (these Kivarists sure do have egos) and CW the Democrat.

Courtney destroyed the husks but she was not
in any hurry to go to Copper Summit and tried
to discourage Michael and Maria from going.

Liz probably wouldn't have bothered going to
CWs funeral and the town of skins could just
go about their business.

Which might eventually include an assault on the Pod Chamber, as seen in EOTW. Makes sense.

CW a Democrat--LMAO! I wondered why they did that!

I can see the "future" realigning itself already. The Skins have had a serious setback now. Of course, Friday night hasn't happened yet--it's the next day after Liz and Kyle didn't sleep together, isn't it? So did they cut school the following day to drive to Arizona?

The Crashdown homepage has a cute link where they solicited votes for various WB characters for president. Max Evans won it with 60%, a huge majority! Of course, his mysterious past may come under some scrutiny--is he really a citizen of this planet, let alone the USA? I enjoyed it.

1. Built-in personalities.
The podsters are only half the genetic make-up of their original selves, with no conscious memory of their past lives. If you want to resurrect a dead leader, why take a chance on genetic, or environmental influences making him unsuitable to the task? The SSer aliens who podded the podsters (presumably), would have also "set" their personalities to get the desired individuals. This would have been accomplished by :
a. the children being in the pods 'til the apparent age of six years of development(basic human personalities are set by this age),
b. possible selection or engineering of the human donor DNA which would genetically pre-dispose each to particular personality traits.
This brings up several questions:
1. Were the Royal Four reborn with the same personalities as in their past life?
Are they doomed to repeat the same mistakes? Nicolas mentioned Max's "tarnished throne" - what did he do wrong? Was Max too cautious and hesitant to act, causing disaster? Was there a scandolous love affair that he couldn't stop? Was he just an all-around poor king?
2. Have the Royal Four been reborn with opposite personalities than their former selves to temper or balance the submerged personalities and memories that Tess hinted could be retrieved?
Was Max a tyrant like Vlad the Impaler? Was he rash, careless, and cruel?
3. Are SSer personalities not influenced by their genetics and they did not care what Max was like as long as they had a leader? Did they assume they could train and educate him for the job when he was old enough no matter what he was like?

I would think that #1 is the most likely, and #3 is the least likely, but who knows until they tell us?

[b]2. The Skins have described the war as a revolution, but a revolt against what?
Obviously it was not about their form of goverment, or K'var would not be sitting on Max's throne.
If it was because Max was such a bad ruler, the SSers would not want him either, and would not be going to such extremes to get him back.
The CW certainly made it sound like a race war inwhich the Skins revolted against the SSers, but many earthly "revolts" are really just an overthrow of one dictator for another. If it was this simple, then why the big deal about the hybridized, adolescent, half-clone of the deposed leader? What kind of threat could he be when he was plopped on an alien planet in another galaxy with amnesia and no ride home. It is laughable for them to expend this much effort and "man" power to hunt him down and steal the granolith. Obviously, both sides have survived thus far without it. If it is never found, what does it change? There has to be more to Max and the granolith than meets the eye.
We often romanticise rebels and sympathise with them. Look at our own Civil War, and sympathies that still survive. Rebels don't like to be told what to do, love independence, and resent being ruled by others. BUT they were fighting for the right to keep another race as slaves! To rule others, tell them what to do, and keep them from independence!
What if Mommy was right, and the revolt was by the evil ones against the good guys?
One theory that I like is that Max was kind and descent enough that he did not want to invade a less advanced planet (maybe even US!), and out of greed, aggressiveness, and lack of morality, they fought his decision? They have been tied up in a civil war ever since, and can not take on a new war, yet. If Max is defeated, like in EOTW, we are next.

(Is Volondra wanted back to legitimize his rule and future offspring? He doesn't seem to love her, or the CW and Nicolas would not have roughed her up.)

Agree with Reggie, I'll bet Valenti would provide any necessary credentials--if the writers will give him the chance!

/

I definitely believe that Vilandra was betrayed by Kavar. The Skins are conducting psychological warfare, not a recruitment campaign.

Politics is every bit as nasty as human nature on "Suvivor". Some people are out to help other people but the majority are in to b/c they are legacies (Like George W. Bush) or simply for a career.

I do not appreciate the Anti-Democrat comments like "no wonder Congresswoman Whitaker was a Democrat".
What does that mean? Explain yourselves. If you are trying to make a point it didn't come off clear.

Anyway, as far as political parties go, most people are either Republicans or Democrat because their parents and family are. I urge everyone to learn the issues. Form your own opinions and do not simply follow. We are all on the internet so it's not like you don't have the resources. Find out what the candidates are parties stand for. What happens today will affect us for years to come.

Bandbabe

Politics is every bit as nasty as human nature on "Suvivor". Some people are out to help other people but the majority are in to b/c they are legacies (Like George W. Bush) or simply for a career.

I do not appreciate the Anti-Democrat comments like "no wonder Congresswoman Whitaker was a Democrat".
What does that mean? Explain yourselves. If you are trying to make a point it didn't come off clear.

Anyway, as far as political parties go, most people are either Republicans or Democrat because their parents and family are. I urge everyone to learn the issues. Form your own opinions and do not simply follow. We are all on the internet so it's not like you don't have the resources. Find out what the candidates are parties stand for. What happens today will affect us for years to come.

Bandbabe

Not a bit hostile, are we?
My observation was that both the Congresskin, and Nikolas were both talking the rhetoric of Class Warfare. "If The People could only see you now." "Your kind doesn't rule..." And so on. This sort of thing is common, especially among the more (shall we say) aggressive Democrats. Have you ever heard such language from a Republican?

Most people follow their parents' parties because they were brought up to believe in certain things. Those things which attracted their parents to one party or the other will also attract the offspring. Take abortion, gun control, the role of the Government in your life, etc. Do you agree, or disagree, with your parents? You probably agree, and therefore follow the same party that they do.

Politics is the craft of getting along with each other. As long as there are more than two people in the world, there will be problems and disagreements among them. The way these are resolved is politics.

Since there are several podsters, more humans, and an unknown number of aliens; with several different and mutually exclusive objectives, there is bound to be some politics in Roswell. Isn't one of the main themes about regaining Max's throne from some sort of conflict? And if it's one of the main themes of the show, why not talk about it?

I posted a Q over on the SciFi thread about whether or not the government of Twilo was perhaps interlinked with religion - mythology as well. I certainly think that there are a lot of clues that led this way...

1) Mommy said that Max was the beloved leader and that they should return to "save" them.

and more recently:

2) EOTW Liz was the virgin that sacraficed herself to save the world.

3) Courtney's Michael shrine looks like a religious alter.

4) Courtney says, "There are no Michael worshipers in Copper Summit."

Now Palomino said that if Max was a bad leader, they wouldn't have bothered to recreate him. I agree. But if he is a religious leader as well as a political leader, then does his importance greatly increase? I think so. And perhaps that is what is meant by "legendary auros".

Sorry if you think this info to be just a repost, but the discussion probably fits better here anyway.

I love the idea of Vilandra as a trophy bride. That thought never occurred to me.

"Enemy of my enemy is my friend." True, but only until the common enemy is defeated, and even before that your 'ally' may be maneuvering for position for afterwards. (Think of the USSR during and after WWII.) So, while the Podsters have to accept Courtney's aid, they'd better not turn their backs- even Michael.

The question of religious leadership I find extremely interesting. It is quite possible that Max is both (sort of like the Byzantine Emperors). Alternatively, there could be a sort of Monarch-worship- that is quite common historically. Or it could just be something like the fascination with Kennedy or Trudeau, but even more so.

I love the idea of Vilandra as a trophy bride. That thought never occurred to me.
Oh, it gets worse. What if Max decides that he can't abide King Max's policies? Maybe King Max was pro-slavery: the Greek and Roman "Golden Ages" were built on enslaving other people. There's a whole barrel of worms there...

About Villandra: A trophy bride is wanted and enjoyed as a bride. (What's her name, that married the 87-year-old guy?) I think V. is more wanted as a mock bride, with the accent on "mock". These guys really hate her...

Now Palomino said that if Max was a bad leader, they wouldn't have bothered to recreate him. I agree. But if he is a religious leader as well as a political leader, then does his importance greatly increase? I think so. And perhaps that is what is meant by "legendary auras".

Sorry if you think this info to be just a repost, but the discussion probably fits better here anyway.

I don't mind reposts; you're right, this discussion of politics isn't really on topic for Sci-Fi. That's why I started this thread.

Well, isn't it Shapeshifter's Rule that if several of us see something, it's probably true?

I continue to like the idea of King Max as a "Jimmy Carter": a truly good man, but a truly sucky leader. Perhaps this is the whole point of stripping Max of his memories, and making him start from scratch? This way he can re-prove (or re-find) his abilities, without the accumulated junk of how many years' experience? This would explain Nasedo, Mom, etc. not explaining the situation; it's part of the test, and it really is stuff he's better off not knowing.

It's about Max restoring himself, not just the dynasty or church. Those will follow naturally, thus defeating his enemies. Oh, oh: close to R&I territory.

Do you think King Max was in the habit of setting up show trials of his political adversaries? Is this (another) indication that King Max was more of a bad guy than a good guy?

Politically, we know that as Max ruled it was a monarchy. This could explain the theory of Max being a "good guy" but an ineffective ruler. He probably had a team of advisors that influenced his decision making. It would be helpful to know if his father left him the throne at a young age where he might have been beloved by the people but so young that he really didn't make any decisions for himself -- but let others around him do the decision making. I believe this was the case with King Edward...and then Bloody Mary took over and finally Elizabeth..and also, how was the planet fairing under the rule of Max's father? was Max suddenly left to rule at a time of impending crisis?

Socially, the stratifications of a monarchy are traditionally significant, are they not? There could be significant power issues between the different cultural groups or species...obviously leading to conflict..

if anyone can help me out by expanding on these ideas please do so...

Some interesting theories as to why Max was beloved, yet failed. I have one more- maybe he was like Jimmy Carter, a President that I gather everyone agreed was a good man, but that few thought made an effective leader.

It looks like neither Isabel nor Vilandra has had a happy life, if being tortured is supposed to be familiar. But I don't get it. Did the Skins torture Vilandra? Before or after her betrayal? Max wouldn't do that to his sister, even if he thought she'd betray him, so it had to be. Hmm... maybe Nicholas or another flunky tortured her so Kavar could pretend to save her? Could be they even are planning on doing the same thing in this life.

Adding up the score, 1) just about everything Michael says has been wrong; 2) just about everything Michael has done, has accomplished little that couldn't have been achieved through far simpler and less risky methods.

I think Michael has been given a rough road as a character, in that he's been given little to go on but a belligerent stance. But as such, he's pretty much a loose cannon with little common sense.

Max's track record, if you add it up, is pretty good: he had a great idea for handling Pierce's death and getting the Spec. Unit off their backs, culminating in the end of the S.U. all together; he had a great idea, and showed great courage and decision in dealing with the bones and getting Michael, once again, out of trouble; he prevented them from killing an innocent man (Brody) just on suspicion, yet got the answers they needed...

Michael even admitted to Valenti, in a lucid moment, that his criticisms of Max were unjust: with no information to go on, there's nothing one can do but not go off alone, stay in public, and pay attention and learn fast.

I think the "conflict" between M&Max is phony and contrived; and anyone irresponsible enough to be contentious and quarrelsome at a time when the team should be pulling together, wouldn't get my vote. Leadership doesn't just mean brandishing weapons and leading attacks.

If Max was seen like this, it makes sense that they would want to preserve his essence -- and his closest associates -- for posterity and the future revitalization of their culture. I think there's a great deal of evidence at this point to suggest that Max was not the best statesman or leader, that he was plagued by indecisiveness ("the flip of a coin") or capriciousness. Reggie mentioned Jimmy Carter, but we should be thinking JFK. Bold, young, good-looking, led by the heart, but from a family predestined to lead.

On Valandra: it has been mentioned elsewhere that she may have had ambitions of her own. Ya know -- not satisfied with being just a princess, or just the king's sister, or the wife of the head of the military. She had the chance to be queen and she took it. Just another perspective to counter the idea of her being the spoils of war. Let’s not make her out to be the innocent victim of machinations just yet. Yes, Nicholas & Company have exerted major abuse her way on Earth, but this could simply be to make her to submit. The Congresswoman implied that they needed her on their side. On her relationship to Michael, we've not been able to determine whose prize was whose. Was she promised to him because of his stature in their civilization? Or did he get his job because of his relationship to her? Or, was he promised to her because of her position in the royal family?

I think it’s significant to note that we’re talking race war, not species war. While Edsedo was clearly a different species, on the home planet, Shirts and Skins are one species, just different races. Skins were disenfranchised and revolted, or had a civil struggle. What do you make of this "golden age" Courtney mentioned? Was this another example of Max’s halfhearted leadership, that he was inequipped for a turn in culture, technology or interplanetary power? If Michael’s faction just wanted a better leader, did they want a leader with the aggressiveness and military cunning to demolish other planets?

I agree that we’re not altogether led to the conclusion that Max’s people were good people. I think this adds a nice dimension to the drama. Who are we really rooting for in this race war?

Why do I have more questions than I thought when I started this post?

Qfanny's reply
I have said this since the SF of Surprise. But I really thought no one else agreed with me on this. But you're right Juniper, we have no factual evidence the Podsters and Skins are different species.

It's always nice to read your posts Juniper.

Hey, I agreed with this. If Villandra and K' var were lovers, you'd expect that they were the same species.

Now that we've got five planets, how many species do we have?

The advent of 5 planets could actually mean that there were 5 different species involved. Although, perhaps their society is advance enough that interstellar travel and natural selection blended any uniqueness into a generic humuniod for that star system.

Politically, I think it would be difficult to be the king of different species and planets. Difficult: Not impossible.

Rath said the war was over the Royal Four. What would cause the planets to war? Was it Vilondra's betrayal? Or something more meaningful. Why am I getting images of WWI's history lesson. The death of the Grandduke insighted the Great War. And failure of the "Leage of Nations" contributed to the lack of lasting peace. Remember, the war was labeled to End all Wars. Somehow, I think the Podsters are being led into WWII.

How about something more heroic, with dei ex machinae dropping in and throwing monkey wrenches into the plot? All started by one love that would not be denied? A cast of thousands, each with their own axes to grind? Special features for the "shippers"? Lovers and haters, all sorts of kinsmen and women... and one woman of great beauty, and another of great virtue?

The Illiad! The Odyssey!

What I am saying is that it seems like WWI, perhaps all the planet were in a situation where one event caused all hell to break lose. WWI started in some respects because of predetermined military operations to protect one's country. Geez, I wish I had my history notes still with me to look some of these stuff up, but take Germany for instance, they are in a natural pincher and there defense would be to stop the alighnment of troops on their borders before they show up. It's a bad thing to have two fronts to fight, (France and Russia). I suppose this makes no sense whatsoever because I am going off of lessons 15 years old.

ummmm... Rush Linbaugh

A rescue operation is mounted; King Max, his wife at his side, Michael, and Villandra are all killed by K' var and his minions (including K' var's general(?) Nikolas). The rest of the army manages to save their essence, somehow, and brings it home to be recycled. King Max & co. are re-created without their memories, in order for them to grow as persons (or some such hoo-hah).

Well? Does it at least smell right?

This makes so much more sense now, although, it seems a little bit too romantic to be true, but it does seem to have the auroma of possiblity.

If I'm mistaken though, isn't the summit supposed to be the ruling families of the five planets in the star system coming together to bargin for peace? So that means several families are ruling over the different planets - wholly crap, that's a lot of people having to come together to keep the peace. But I am still unsure about why the huge war was supposedly over the royal four - and if our podsters are the "defectives" then maybe y'all are correct about King Max not being such a nice guy afterall.

Hmmmm...cannot wait till Monday night for Max in the City - hopefully answers will be given and we'll be given a glimpse of some of the politics behind these many aliens! Yeah!

Laters, Beth

I think on their planet they could have had a dictatorship(Max could wipe out entire armies with a flip of a coin).

*Fair Warning!* If you don't want to hear about the episode, don't look here after that, until you've seen it.

Well, first of all, we know that Max isn't a decoy - he's the genuine article. If Lonnie is a good likeness of Villandra, she probably did sell out everyone; not for love, but love of herself.

Let's look over the parties, as we see them now.
Max, the Royal Four, and Mom
K' var, the Skins, and That Little Rat Nikolas
Lonnie and Rath
Sero
Hanar
Kathana
Larek (Brody)
The Shapeshifter(s)

Max and K' var are fighting over the Throne of Twilo. (We still don't know what any of the names are; planets or political units.) As much as they are fighting over that, they seem to be fighting over The Granolith. There seems to be only one, it's both an object of veneration, and it's also a powerful device of some sort. It's not just "a piece of junk or something." Did the Twilonians make it themselves, or did they find it, or was it a Gift of the God(s)? We need more information.

Lonnie and Rath are currently working for TLR Nikolas, but I think they'd work for anyone who'd offer them a better deal. It's an open question whether K' var wants Villandra back as a trophy wife, or a trophy head on the wall. He may not care. Rath definitely takes orders from Lonnie, and is expendable. (Where is their shapeshifter?)

The various worlds: Kathana attacks K' var, K' var attacks Sero, etc. They're here to end "fifty" (?) years of fighting - by getting hold of King Max? They aren't skillful enough to solve the problem(s) themselves? They figured that K'var stll had The Granolith, so how does a King who hasn't ruled for over fifty years make a difference? Is he an object of veneration himself? Would that include the rest of the Royal Four? Yet, Larek grew up with him... are they all objects of veneration, only Max more so?

The "Bargain": Let's review, shall we? Max surrenders The Granolith, his partisans surrender, he gives up his authority and becomes a puppet (or scapegoat) for as long as it suits K' var to let him live. Never mind the conversation between Nikolas and Lonnie- this is a one sided deal, and obviously should have been rejected out of hand. More than that, the other worlds should have seen this too; or are they "a special kind of stupid"? So why would Max turning this offer down make them his "enemies"? Do they want him dead, under some circumstances? At K' var's hands, perhaps? He might be more useful as a martyr, in a combined struggle of them allied against K' var... but why couldn't they ally without him?

Reggie, you brought up some good points, both about the abilities of the other rulers and about the weird deal K'var was offering.

First of all, if these emissaries are so freakin' desperate to travel who knows how many thousands of light years (in whatever form) to possess some humans and meet with a defunct teenage king who doesn't have the most basic knowledge of his homeworld, then frankly, they obviously CANNOT solve this fighting themselves. And god help whoever has to rule this bunch....

Which brings me to my second point. Maybe the whole V society was as argumentative and hot-headed as the summit. Maybe Brody-the-Larek-puppet gave us some huge clues as to this home system. Max's rule could have been about finally being able to pull all these groups together and keep them in line. And the changes he was trying to make were changes fundamental to the structure of the society. Forgive the Star Trek analogy for a sec, but our knowledge of Vulcan history is that they were at one time exceptionally violent and one man's philosophy changed all that. But it wasn't a pretty transition, and Max made have found himself in a similar situation.

The deal: hello, why was any debate even necessary there? Larek expected that Max would have to 'think about it' so we know the former version of Max was as deliberate as this one. Michael would have seen the deal sucked immediately, and that would have quite quickly been pointed out. But everyone was so excited about the deal, or at least seemed receptive to the idea. I would like to know what the loss of the granolith means to K'var's rule, since it was so shocking to the others, but we weren't given that information. Instead, even if some of them might have disliked the deal, they are evidently so tired of fighting that having the granolith back and Max's head on a stake was a good trade.

Like I said, god help whoever has to rule this bunch....

tanchel

Reggie, you brought up some good points, both about the abilities of the other rulers and about the weird deal K'var was offering.

First of all, if these emissaries are so freakin' desperate to travel who knows how many thousands of light years (in whatever form) to possess some humans and meet with a defunct teenage king who doesn't have the most basic knowledge of his homeworld, then frankly, they obviously CANNOT solve this fighting themselves. And god help whoever has to rule this bunch....

Which brings me to my second point. Maybe the whole V society was as argumentative and hot-headed as the summit. Maybe Brody-the-Larek-puppet gave us some huge clues as to this home system. Max's rule could have been about finally being able to pull all these groups together and keep them in line. And the changes he was trying to make were changes fundamental to the structure of the society. Forgive the Star Trek analogy for a sec, but our knowledge of Vulcan history is that they were at one time exceptionally violent and one man's philosophy changed all that. But it wasn't a pretty transition, and Max made have found himself in a similar situation.

The deal: hello, why was any debate even necessary there? Larek expected that Max would have to 'think about it' so we know the former version of Max was as deliberate as this one. Michael would have seen the deal sucked immediately, and that would have quite quickly been pointed out. But everyone was so excited about the deal, or at least seemed receptive to the idea. I would like to know what the loss of the granolith means to K'var's rule, since it was so shocking to the others, but we weren't given that information. Instead, even if some of them might have disliked the deal, they are evidently so tired of fighting that having the granolith back and Max's head on a stake was a good trade.

Like I said, god help whoever has to rule this bunch....

tanchel

Don't worry about being scrambled! Roswell has always been that way. Why should the politics be clearer than the science?

Yes, the delegates are going to a lot of trouble for (what looks like) not much. Max obviously didn't rule one political unit; otherwise how would the five planets be attacking each other? And if they were seperate units, then why care, really, about who rules one of them? If it's a confederation of some sort, what's so special about King Max, that soneone else couldn't serve (assuming K' var isn't suitable)? If they are so unrulable, how do they expect Max to rule them?

I keep thinking: Last show of the series: Max gives one of the other planets The Granolyth, on condition that everyone stops bothering him!

On the other hand, all these people could be Skins, and the whole thing a put-up job by Nikolas to draw Max out of hiding. He had to know that there was a dupe of Max, maybe that one didn't or wouldn't pass as genuine? And he also knew in advance that Max (alone) had The Granolyth. Maybe the whole thing looks odd because it is.

Maybe it was the two glasses of merlot, but when the Emissary handed Max that timesheet, all I could think was, "There's paperwork?" and dissolved into giggles. That's been a lot of my reaction to the barely-known political and social structure of these other star system. Actually, I've been snickering every since Mommagram announced our Podsters were the salvation of their planet--THERE was a last ditch plan.

I love this show.....

tanchel

Trying to save this thread off of page three.
sorry, nothing knew here, but I'm going to recap some of my thoughts. I have yet to make a firm decisions about the granolith as a religious artificat.

This is what I know:

Politics and Religion have historically been inter-related. Jesus was crucified for political reasons, but then became a "Savior of the World". Nemo has a wonderful Christology theory.

The seperation of church and state is a modern theme in governments.

Like I posted, mommogram message seems to have overtones of religion or mythology: "Your essense was duplicated, clone and mixed with human genetic material so you could be recreated in human beings... ....save us." And the advent of the Dupes arrival (the duplicates) in Mommogram seems to suggest that the Grand Plan is following in line. The podsters NM4 are the clones, the NY4 are the duplicates. Perhaps the "mixed" business means something else entirely as well.

Courtney is a Michael worshipper in grand priestess style.

However, the fact is, how ever highly the Royal Four are looked up to by the Twiloneses, they are not perfect. If they are deities, I imagine that they are like Greek gods: They have flaws. They'll make mistakes that will impact the world. And I do not think that the NM4 see themselves this way at all. In fact, Max says it, "I'm not God," in LN.

The granolith, sorry, but right now it seems it cannot buy it as a religious artifact. It seems way to powerful and too purposeful to be a symbolic ya-ya stick for 5 planets. The only thing that would unite 5 different worlds is the quest for power. And that is what the granolith has. Whoever has the granolith, has the power. Which was K'var's goal of the summit, get the granolith. The prefered way is to trick the royal four into delivering it. This is only after they try to overrun Roswell with the Skins army. The second way is to force the other warring factions to go after Max et al. It saves K'var a lot of work and money to have his enemies kill off the royal four and then coming in the last minute to claim his prize.

Sorry, nothing new here! But these topics fit better on this thread---

Hi Reggie, Hi All,

I came to check out the politics thread. I could have sworn you were up to four pages earlier today. I must have just misread the main board. I'll repost what I wrote on the SF thread, it's way more appropriate here.

I don't think the martyred idea works. Zan's been martyred once before, quite possibly by Kavar. That really would be history repeating itself. Everything points to Kavar wanting that happen. He won Twilo the first time around, but apparently the other 4 worlds aren't happy with the result. They've been fighting since Zan died.

Here's a partial repost of what I wrote on the SF of MitC. It's pretty much a rehash of what Reggie and Tanchel have already posted here, but maybe there's something worth discussing. I'll be back when I'm less fried.

Some questions and observations about the summit

Nicholas referred to Tess as Max's "genocidal girlfriend." Was this just in reference to her wiping out the skins on earth or does it have historical overtones. Did original Ava had genocidal tendencies towards the skins?

It was a good thing Nicholas showed up, no one else seemed to bring anything to the table. Larek says they're meeting in a 'spirit of reconciliation,' Hanar whines about the '50 years of misery and suffering' among their worlds and catalogues the round robin attacks, and Sero just chimes in that they have to find a solution.

Then Nicholas offers the only solution. That seems a bit convenient doesn't it? Could the whole summit just be an elaborate scam on Nicholas/Kavar's part to get the granolith?

What does Kavar's offer tell us about Max and his position back home?
1. Max becomes king in name only.
2. Max tells his followers to support the current government.
3. Max returns the granolith.

Assuming that the minds of the leaders of the different worlds are actually present, and they're not Kavar's co-conpsirators, then they all apparently agree that their interplanetary wars will end with the return of Max and the granolith. We know that Kavar is convinced that if he has the granolith he can continue his rule unimpeded. So the four other leaders must want Max himself back. Even a politically powerless Max. Why? Do Max and the granolith represent some unifying symbol that transcends fifty years of war? Do they all need Max back to get his people to support the current power structures (his supporters are present on all five planets), or does that only apply to Kavar? Can only Max use the granolith, and Kavar doesn't know it? Is the granolith equally important to all five worlds (that seemed to be indicated) or is it more important on Max/Kavar's planet. It sure doesn't get used much. No one's missed it in 50 years. Is it important that the royal four were never mentioned at the summit? Larek says very little during the summit, then tells Max he was a good friend of original Zan. Another manipulation, or the truth? Why does Larek see the events of the summit as history repeating itself? Did original Zan also want to keep sole control of the granolith, not sharing its power with the other worlds? Katana also says very little at the summit. Can we infer from her line "You made a lot of enemies here today" that she and her world had previously been Zan's supporters?

SF

As for why the other worlds want Max back so bad, here are my thoughts: Maybe, since Twilo is at the base of the V-shaped star system, is it possible it is the stabilizing world out of all the four - perhaps the most powerful, etc.? And with Khivar as leader, it has thrown the other worlds completely out of whack? Also, could Khivar be playing everybody else against each other - and that is how Vilandra learned her manipulative ways?

Thus why they would take Max back in any way possible...it suddenly hit me as I was reading Tanchel's post. Sorry if it sounds a littly kooky!

As for the granolith, I'm with you Qfanny about not being sure if it is a religious symbol or not. To be able to use it to time travel seriously gives me doubts it could simply be Twilo's (and the other planets) version of a Buddha statue or a crucifix.

After the whole trumped-up story concerning the death of the Red Giant in MtD, it's curious to me as to why nothing was mentioned in this eppy.

Anyhoo, hope this makes sense to somebody outside of my head - but I know all of you know how that goes sometimes!

Laters, Beth

Hi TiffanyAnn,

I believe it was GraceKel who initially started calling Max's planet Twilo, but it could have been shapeshifter. It has something to do with a reference from the Dick van Dyke show. If you track them down, I'm sure they'd be happy to explain. It's been picked up by a lot of people here on the boards. SSER is just an abbreviation for shapeshifter.

Hope that helps.

SF

Some of these posts about the five planets' interrelationships bring to mind how we regard the president of the US as "the leader of the free world." Max as the king of Twilo may have been able to make policies that dramatically affected life on the other four planets. I'm thinking economic sanctions, free trade, "Most Favored Nation" status, who we sell weapons to, etc., things that are all pretty dependent on the whims of the party in power in Washington. We're inside it so it's hard for us to determine how that plays out in other countries, but there's no doubt that our leader is incredibly influential among the rest of our planet.

Let's keep this thread on page one, folks!

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:

The granolith, sorry, but right now it seems it cannot buy it as a religious artifact. It seems way to powerful and too purposeful to be a symbolic ya-ya stick for 5 planets. The only thing that would unite 5 different worlds is the quest for power. And that is what the granolith has. Whoever has the granolith, has the power. Which was K'var's goal of the summit, get the granolith. The prefered way is to trick the royal four into delivering it. This is only after they try to overrun Roswell with the Skins army. The second way is to force the other warring factions to go after Max et al. It saves K'var a lot of work and money to have his enemies kill off the royal four and then coming in the last minute to claim his prize.

I don't see a problem with the the granolith being really powerful and a religious artifact. Just think of the roles religious artifacts play in modern day miracles. Whether you believe they happen or not, to people with faith, they are very powerful indeed.

There's definitely the implication that whoever has the granolith has the right to rule. Is that because might makes right, and the granolith is the ultimate weapon of destruction, or is it more subtle than that. We know Kavar wants it badly. We also know it's in Kavar's interest to maintain the status quo. He needs history to repeat itself. He wants to stay in power, and he wants the granolith.

Whatever the granolith does, it's not actually used very often. No-one noticed that it was gone for 50 years. So it's normally kept hidden away. Maybe it's only known of as a myth to the people of the 5 planets, but Kavar figured out that it existed for real and that Max's family had possession of it. Maybe Max's family always had possession of it, the whole priest-king idea. Somehow the royal four or just Max and the granolith are linked.

SF

SF
Perhaps it's like a nuclear weapon? We haven't exploded one in anger since 8/9/1945, but since then we've used them as a threat, or a bargaining chip, often. Cases in point: the Berlin Airlift, the Cuban Missle Crisis, your favorite arms limitation treaty, etc.
Not that it is even a weapon, but it's (primary) use may constitute a threat of some sort.

The granolith could be a religious artifact, but it is not wanted for that reason. In order to understand the granolith, we need to first understand why people want it, and I cannot buy the reason of religion.

A peace summit at which only one participant had any proposal? That doesn't seem right at all. I would expect them all to have plans. In fact, no discussion whatsoever took place at all.

What Kavar demanded (even assuming one believed him) clearly amounted to surrender. Max would become a figureheard, give up the Granilith, ask his supporters to lay down their weapons and place himself and his family into Kavar's hands. Why did Max need 20 minutes to figure out this was a bad idea? Why did four people, leaders of entire planets (therefore presumably not politically naive), blame Max and not Kavar for scuttling any chance for peace?

I like the theory that all of the people present were Kavar's supporters, engaged in a deception- no conference ever took place. Brody's possessor was playing mind games with Max, trying to weaken his confidence in his own judgement, in case he escaped Lonnie's assassination attempt.

There's no evidence yet to suggest Zan of New York couldn't have projected the royal V also. I can't remember if we were told that Zan would not attend the summit, or that he wouldn't vote the way Rath and Lonnie wanted him to. In either case, Zan of New York might have had every reason to believe he could claim the head table at the summit.

quote:Max and K' var are fighting over the Throne of Twilo. (We still don't know what any of the names are; planets or political units.) As much as they are fighting over that, they seem to be fighting over The Granolith. There seems to be only one, it's both an object of veneration, and it's also a powerful device of some sort. It's not just "a piece of junk or something." Did the Twilonians make it themselves, or did they find it, or was it a Gift of the God(s)? We need more information.[/B]

It was clear that Lonnie's dismissal of the importance of the Granolith, as in, it's their holy grail, those little sheep, was a red herring aimed at Max to get him to give it up easily. If it's weaponry, you'd have to convince me what is so special or particular that technologically they can't replace it/make a new one. We know what it CAN do in several circumstances, we just don't know what it's SUPPOSED to do.

quote:Lonnie and Rath are currently working for TLR Nikolas, but I think they'd work for anyone who'd offer them a better deal. It's an open question whether K' var wants Villandra back as a trophy wife, or a trophy head on the wall. He may not care. Rath definitely takes orders from Lonnie, and is expendable. (Where is their shapeshifter?)[/B]

Betcha they don't have one! Nicholas is using Rath and Lonnie to assure K'var's throne. Through them he can find King Zan, real or dupe, and bring Zan's followers around to K'var and force them to submit to K'var's rule. Rath is just a murderous loose cannon and seems to have no purpose except to be Lonnie's boy toy. As opposed to Michael, who seems to take his role in destiny a little more seriously.

quote:The various worlds: Kathana attacks K' var, K' var attacks Sero, etc. They're here to end "fifty" (?) years of fighting - by getting hold of King Max? They aren't skillful enough to solve the problem(s) themselves? They figured that K'var stll had The Granolith, so how does a King who hasn't ruled for over fifty years make a difference? Is he an object of veneration himself? Would that include the rest of the Royal Four? Yet, Larek grew up with him... are they all objects of veneration, only Max more so?[/B]

It was indicated that Max/Zan has "followers" at home who reject K'var. I'm picturing rioting, looting, you know, Staples Center after a Lakers championship. Multiply that by unrest on four other planets, and you've got holy hell. Now, Mom implied all four had significance, and Future Max said the same. Zan's followers probably believe that he has the Granolith and thus should be reinstated as king. K'var may claim the Granolith but is unable to produce it. All five planets' economies may depend on it.

quote:The "Bargain": Let's review, shall we?(snip) So why would Max turning this offer down make them his "enemies"? Do they want him dead, under some circumstances? At K' var's hands, perhaps? He might be more useful as a martyr, in a combined struggle of them allied against K' var... but why couldn't they ally without him?[/B]

Lots of bloodshed is reason enough for the other emissaries to want him to make a deal...even his onetime friend Larek would prefer to stop the violence and see Max/Zan dead than continue the War of the Worlds. But I was interested to see that even at the summit, there was no indication of democracy. It was four against one, and the one wins. It would have been more revealing if it had been two votes to two with Max casting the deciding vote. Max/Zan is clearly the head cheese, and the others allying against K'var makes no difference if Max/Zan -- or the home planet -- is the end-all/be-all in the five planet system.

As for democracy? It's more like Who shall bell the cat? Only Max has The Granolyth, only K' var can offer a homecoming. Why are the others there? Witnesses, that King Max won't surrender? Would they have "talked turkey" if K' var hadn't had Nikolas there? Who called this meeting, anyway, if Nikolas was a surprise guest? I just don't understand this. There's something fishy...

Suppose The Emissary, or his boss, called the meeting? Who is he the emissary of?

Now the other four planets involved know that Max has it, it's on Earth, and K'var is a pretender. Had Max taken the deal for some reason, sure, he'd be dead, but K'var would have the Granolith and (we assume) have a real claim to the throne, all the marbles, as it were. Am I naive?

Obviously power doesn't rest solely in whoever has the granolith, or why bother with a Summit at all? They could have ignored the Royal Four's existence entirely. K'var and his *perceived* possession of the Granolith don't work, or the 50-year war wouldn't have occurred. (After all, if you have a big ol' superweapon, aren't your enemies logical in thinking you would have used it against them by now?) K'var may be kidding himself by thinking possession of the Granolith is all or that killing Max would actually solve anything. Because hey, the gang all showed up anyway, ready to listen to Max.

The man-in-the-street (go Reggie!) probably thinks K'var has the Granolith too, and yet Max's armies (being led by WHO?) are still fighting.

What this actually means, I don't know. ButI don't think possession of the granolith is everything K'var thinks it is, no matter what powers the thing is supposed to have.
Maybe if he DID have it, he'd lay waste to the other planets, but I'm still not sure that holds up to close scrutiny.

Is this making any sense?

tanchel

It stands to reason that prior to the summit there would have been dissention on Twilo about the location of the big G and who controls it. In other words, Max's faction believes one thing, K'var's faction another.

If K'var claimed he had it, wouldn't the other four civilizations have said, "okay then, big man, whip it out?" If he couldn't produce it -- or deliver the wonders it contains -- then wars would keep on a-warring.

As for its possibly being a weapon, I can't fathom a weapon could be created once and not created again using the same science or skill.

The rest were there for Max. Frankly, on some level, they just didn't seem scared enough of K'var for the granolith to really matter. They weren't scared of him when they thought he had it, so why would they be if he ever DOES have it? That's why I think K'var is deluding himself that possession of the granolith will give him ultimate control.

I was assuming the granolith is a weapon, and that could very well be a faulty assumption. Future Max indicated there were lots of things it could do, so I'm imagining that weapon is one of them. But since nobody seems afraid of it, I guess there has to be some other reason K'var needs it so badly.

tanchel

If anything, the grail seems a bit like a warp core (ST), if you destabilize it, it becomes a weapon, but it has a whole lot of other uses. Being a weapon of mass destruction is just a secondary attribute. Reggie, if the granolith can be used as a weapon, then using it as a bargaining chip is valid, but if it can only be used once as a weapon, it devalues its negotiating power. Of course, it could have some kind of rechargeable energy source, but tanchel makes an excellent argument about its inadequacy as a deterrent to war. It makes me think of Frank Herbert's aphorism "to have power is to use it, to use it is to lose it."

quote:Originally posted by Juniper:
As for its possibly being a weapon, I can't fathom a weapon could be created once and not created again using the same science or skill.

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
The Granolith. … Did the Twilonians make it themselves, or did they find it, or was it a Gift of the God(s)? We need more information.

We do need more information, but if we accept that it's unique, and if the Twilonians actually made it, then it's really old. The "How to make your own granolith" manual is lost in the mists of time.

I'm also not convinced that the granolith is equally important to all five worlds. It seems to have symbolic significance as well, like an orb and scepter at a coronation. Nicholas's reference to the "tarnished throne" in Harvest seems to indicate that Kavar might be the one in power on Twilo, but he's not officially recognized. The summit points to that as well. The other leaders were quite happy for Max to speak for Twilo; Nicholas showing up was a surprise. Maybe if Kavar has the granolith, his presence on the throne will be legitimized, as Juniper has already mentioned.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
I guess I could believe that the granolith is a religious object if CW and the husks wanted it for a religious service. But they wanted it to survive and go home.

I've forgotten CW's exact words, but could they be interpreted this way? They're running out of time, if they can just find the granolith (silverhandprint.com) Kavar will let them come home. Hence they get to survive and go home just by getting the granolith. But it is Kavar who will get them and the granolith home, not necessarily the granolith itself. Yet another take could be a "grail" interpretation. Whoever drinks from the Grail has eternal life seems to parallel a dying skin being rejuvenated by the granolith (works for Courtney in WO).

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
The attendees at the summit do not want the granolith for religious reasons, they want it because it has power.

But do they actually want it? Kavar would've been the one to get it if Max had agreed, and the others just seemed surprised that Kavar didn't actually have it. I'll have to check, but there didn't seem to be any drive to get it on the part of the other four world leaders.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
In order to understand the granolith, we need to first understand why people want it, and I cannot buy the reason of religion.
[/B]

Excellent point. So far, the only group that wants it are the skins (to rejuvenate themselves, seems to have religious overtones, but could simply be some bioengineering) and Kavar (IMHO, we don't have a definitive reason why he wants it yet).

quote: Originally posted by Reggie:
…so how does a King who hasn't ruled for over fifty years make a difference?

That's the question. He alone seems to be some kind of unifying peace symbol. Can we assume that the other four leaders were too dim to realize that Kavar ultimately wants him dead? Assuming of course that they are actually the real leaders and not Kavars dupes…

SF

Or, to put it another way, at what point(s) were the Granolyth and pods planned to be put there? Might the Granolyth be there for its own reason, unrelated to the later addition of the pods? Might its presence not be due to the Destiny plan, but to some other scheme entirely? I have a feeling there's a Master Plan, and the Destiny plan is not a major part of it, if at all.

Who was he the Emissary of, anyway?

Thinking back to the logistics of the pod chamber, I think you're right. The granolith was there first. You go in through this little tunnel from the entrance, and then have to go behind/through the pod remnants, and then you see the granolith. The pods hide the granolith, unless there's another entrance we haven't been shown.

I wonder if placement suggests importance? The pods hide the granolith from view, thus the granolith might be more important in the long run? That would subvert this whole Destiny plan nicely. Ooh, I like this idea too!

Or, if the granolith had to be placed first, is it somehow responsible for an illusion that hides the entire thing? I've never been fully convinced that the rock formation in which this is all concealed is entirely natural. Maybe the location of the pod placements had to do with the granolith already being in place to support them. In other words, before bringing the pods to earth, an earlier team had to get the granolith here?

tanchel

From Juniper
quote:There's no evidence yet to suggest Zan of New York couldn't have projected the royal V also. I can't remember if we were told that Zan would not attend the summit, or that he wouldn't vote the way Rath and Lonnie wanted him to. In either case, Zan of New York might have had every reason to believe he could claim the head table at the summit.

Zan specifically told Rath that he would NOT attend the summit, as it might be a trap. Then the other Dupes questioned his decision and he reemphasized it by saying, "Tell them H No!". Which is why just moments later Lonnie and Rath throw him in front of that truck. And, yes, the question is unanswered(able) whether Zan has the seal or not.

Love the ambiguity of the Granolith as the writers can utilize it anyway they choose. Plus it provides much more room to speculate.

It does look big and permanent, but what really makes up the granolith. Anyone who can change the molecular structure of stuff can wave their hand and create the chamber. I think they'ed be able to make a replacement semi-transparent cone. It looked pretty empty when FM appeared in it. So that just leaves the base, which looks heavy, but portable. Maybe it actually gets transported in broken pieces and is reconstructed in a similar manner to the way Tess put the Buddha statue back together in TLV. I'm just pulling your leg, but this is Roswell, so the possibilities are endless. Kavar might have a work crew and a big semi parked behind the moon.

The dialogue at the summit doesn't point to it being there permanently, although I have enjoyed the suggestions that it is a portal to another dimension, the end point of a wormhole, a nexus point.

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
Or, to put it another way, at what point(s) were the Granolyth and pods planned to be put there? Might the Granolyth be there for its own reason, unrelated to the later addition of the pods? Might its presence not be due to the Destiny plan, but to some other scheme entirely? I have a feeling there's a Master Plan, and the Destiny plan is not a major part of it, if at all.

I'm not even sure any one person actually knows the master plan. There seem to be multiple plots and counter-plots, and Destiny just seemed to apply to Twilo. They really had all their eggs in one basket with all the "real" pods and the granolith in the same chamber. I have to agree with tanchel that the granolith's location in the chamber would indicate that it was there first.

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
Who was he the Emissary of, anyway?

Good question. He definitely points to the existence of a sixth non-partisan group. A high priest of the cult of the granolith?

So that puts us up to eight groups. Max's people and Kavar's people on Twilo. The people from the four other planets. The non-partisan group, location unknown, and the shapeshifters. They seem so specialized, I'm not willing to throw them in with Max's people. Whew, this is getting really complicated really fast.

SF

So that puts us up to eight groups. Max's people and Kavar's people on Twilo. The people from the four other planets. The non-partisan group, location unknown, and the shapeshifters. They seem so specialized, I'm not willing to throw them in with Max's people. Whew, this is getting really complicated really fast.

SF

High priest of the Granolyth Cult? Hmmm. Thought that was Max; as some sort of priest/king. I suppose the original King Max is dead, right?

And you're dismissing the "Michael Worshippers" as a splinter group of the Max, or the K' var, group?
We might find the other four worlds in agreement on most issues; they may constitute "one" party. What are the issues between them?!? If the group of them wasn't a charade set up by K' var; which I'm half-convinced of...

I am troubled by the timeline of events. If the granolith was installed before the pods, then that means it was brought here before 1947. The "V" planets have been at war for the past 50 years. And it took 3 years to bring the podlings to Earth. (Unless Liz is right, and one alien year equals one human year--- TMA). Anyway, here's what would have had to happen.

1) Proto-Max's father, dies: (probably K'var was involved.)
2) Proto-Max became king: (This is a monarchy folks, no democracy here.)
3) Proto-Max probably married next:
4) Proto-Max is killed and all hell breaks lose.

If we are to believe the 50 years war, then the pods were made before Vilandra's betrayal and before Proto-Max was assassinated. If the granolith was installed before the pods, then perhaps one of the decisions that Max made was to send the granolith away from the "V" constellation. He decided to put it away in a distant world for safe keeping. Which leaves a reason of why?

And also, how would Mommy know to make podlings before the coup de tat?

I am willing to except that perhaps 50 years is a rounding off of sorts, but the writers keep mentioning it. First Courtney says it in Harvest (You do the math) and then again at the summit.

This all seems very strange: My $ is that Proto-Max designed the whole destiny scheme in the first place. The next question is why? Did he know that he'd be sacraficed for his beliefs and leadership?

But it does not explain how the pods/granolith made it to Earth because this had to have taken some planning. And I seriously doubt they were expecting a crash or the ensuing chaos (if we are to believe the visions Liz got from Max last season in SH). The frantic buriel of the orb and the obvious capture of the still-living alien(s).

Anyhoo, hope this makes some sort of sense. Goodness, I love this thread...and if y'all keep going, we might just end up with tons of little alien species running around Earth and the five V-planets! LOL

Laters, Beth

Max gave two reasons for not taking K'var's offer. He told the ambassadors that he was not going to reliquish the granolith to anyone because it was entrusted to him alone. But he told Isabel that he was going to do it but couldn't because he would mean leaving Isabel and Michael behind.

Which answer do you think he really followed? I think the first, because he trusted Liz's advice. It would have been interesting had the delegates pressed him for more whys...

I definately think K'var was part of proto-Max's inner circle. It makes so much more sense.

Now for a totally different topic.....
Someone asked about whether Michael's followers were a splinter group of Kivar's or Max's... I vote Max's. Courtney said that the Michael worshippers believed that Michael would have been the one to unite them. The question is; Why??? Why was Max perceived as a bad leader. Larek said that he had made "bad decisions".... and Nicholas has alluded to Zan/Max as "trusting the wrong people".... hmmmmm.

About Max's decision at the summit... (and I said something like this on the SF thread). Max made exactly the right decision. What good leader in their right mind would agree to let him/her self be made a figure head, and allow the man who usurped their throne (and probably killed him/her) to retain the power? The whole deal was stinky cheese... and I think that Max sensed it. He said that his reason for not taking the deal was because he didn't want to leave Isabel and Michael behind... and that may be how he justifies it to himself... but I'd bet that his King Zan DNA was screaming at him not to do it.

One more little thought... whether or not Zan could have also had the Royal Seal emblazoned on his brain...
Probably not. Max is the true and rightful King. Zan was the defective. If both had survived... then the home team would have had a really sticky situation with BOTH clones being the "legitimate" Kings.

TTFN...

Thanks for starting this thread, Reggie. These wonderful posts help keep the pieces together. Very much needed as this plot expands and becomes more complex (assuming Kivar is on the throne on Twilo and not some earth-bound troll sunning himself on the beach in Jamaica, having concocted this great scheme and hoax) . Wonderful posts.

I certainly think the Granilith has always been, and was not placed there (except by the original builders who are long ago turned to stardust). It reminds me, in a way, of the monolith of 2001 A Space Odyssey. I believe the Granilith, like Shangrila and the fountains of youth, existed in their mythology. The source of great power (and perhaps immortality?).

Perhaps Kivar not only found evidence in writings (perhaps he tortured, killed, or bribed one of the Emissary or 'priestly' class), but also found physical evidence of it's existence (ie, an artifact like the beeper). He may also know that the myth makes it clear that the annointed king is important to the to the Granilith. It is an intriguing question whether or not Kivar understand that perhaps ONLY the annointed king can master the power. I'm thinking of Raiders of the Lost Ark and it's portrayal of Hitler's true obsession with finding the Ark of the Covenant and interest in all things associated with the grail Hollows.

I had a chill (and obviously Max had some reaction, too) when he saw/felt something when he saw his reflection in the Granilith.

quote:Originally posted by SF:
Good question. He definitely points to the existence of a sixth non-partisan group. A high priest of the cult of the granolith?

[Whew, this is getting really complicated really fast. SF /b][/quote]

I was watching MITC this morning and I realized I was puzzled by the Emissary. I was going to ask the question when I came upon your post.

I agree with you very much SF in that I had a sense of a guardian/initiates group associated with the Granolith when I saw the Emissary scene. When you heard 'Temps' (BTW- I loved that scene and thought it clever and very funny) did you think TEMPLARS, as in Knights Templars.

The Templars, as you have read in Holy Blood/Holy Grail (Baigenet, et al), were the grail gaurdians, the grail family guardians and the and the grail 'castle' guardians. They were the guardians of the 'secret' or the rituals and symbols associated with the family or the power.

I think this group, non-aligned politically but sworn to service to the anointed family (which might, however, expose this group to persecution in the long run, juast as the Templars burned in the Rennes-le-Chateau massacre with the Cathars).

The real intriguing (and fun) question becomes, if these are indeed Templar knights in function: who is the Grand Master of the Secret Order (and the members) which appoints the Emissaries??

EEight groups sounds good. Maybe even more.

What may be even more fascinating to consider is that this game has been going on a very long time. So long ago that Twilo died, the sun went nova and the light reached earth the week before. That renders the political maneuverings moot and, unlocking the secret of the Granilith or not, Max's dilema about going home is solved but he'll have to decide what to do with the power on earth.

My question is, just how long has this scenario been played out on earth? And is there are possibility that, with the death of the planet, long before the sun went nova, the 'walk-ins' have been trapped here all along?

The projection of the mental energy deal is very hard to swallow, so I belive there is more than a possiblity that there is earthly device/agency in this scheme, it, dupe the dupes and use the (created) 'royal' 4 to uncover a power on earth?

SF, from the book, I am also reminded of the chapter about the end of the Merovingian lineage of annointed kings (the lineage=vine driven underground) and the Carolingian ascension of APPOINTED kings .

Thanks for reading. What do people think?

Rosta~~~ :sailboat : ~~~~~~~

LMAOlol: that was hilarious. Very interesting though what you said about the "putting things back together". Maybe the granolith has both the power to create and destroy and be a time machine depending on which page of the manual you wanna look it up in. I think whoever has the "remote control" AND knows how to use it will unquestionably have in essence the power. Now who has that kind of power in their hands is the most important thing. It can do incredible good, and incredible bad.

quote:A very interesting analysis. I hope we learn a lot more- how many other factions/species might be out there?
I definitely believe that Vilandra was betrayed by Kavar. The Skins are conducting psychological warfare, not a recruitment campaign.--Alex Evans

So basically we have eight species. Like you said maybe how the religious bit ties into all this is the legend on how this granolith was created. Perhaps Vilondra was considered a Goddess in her planet and a 'trophy wife' tieing in excellently to the entire betrayal thing because she got kidnapped or whatever that came to be. Maybe on Earth there was another "Goddess" waaaay baaaack when the original brought in the granolith to Earth and their King fell in love with her. Maybe she was the "Goddess of Heaven and Earth" and also destiny or coincidence be she had the human DNA required to be the "fifth element" to make the thing work.

I am wondering what Max's faction social/economic background is - and number. The more groups introduced, generally the harder it will be to establish peace.

I am wondering what Max's faction social/economic background is - and number. The more groups introduced, generally the harder it will be to establish peace.

Well, Courtney seemed to imply ( ) that there were a lot of factions.

My guess is that there are a relative few of Max's peers, and a lot of commoners supporting him. Enough commoners to make up a guerilla force that can create problems; I believe that that's what the other planets' interest in Max is. Alive, he is to control the commoners loyal to him; publicly executed, and permanently dead, his commoners will be demoralized and dissipate.

Excellant question, Qfanny. You always make us think!

The protestant revolution is often described as a middle class revolution. Were the artisan classes challedged the authority and fuedal systems of the lords, the serfs still often supported their king, and held onto the Catholic/Anglican hierachry of order of power. (God-King-Prince-Lord-Tenant-Serf)

But Reggie: Think of how expensive the mommogram mission is/would be. I have a feeling that there are major classes that also support Max. There is no way the working class could afford such an outlandish and expensive operation as the Destiny plan.

I was actually just being facetious when I said the emissary was possibly the high priest of the granoltyh cult, but it might not be that out there. The emissary must have been apolitical or non-partisan or in a position trusted by all parties, or I'd expect each world to send a delegate to witness the authentication process. For all we know the temp. might have been possessed by more than one person, in which case he doesn't represent a non-partisan group. But anyway, to get back to the high priest of the granolith cult... Even if Max is the Priest/King/god, and Twilo's government is some monarchical theocracy, it stands to reason that within the power structure of their religion there would be a political arm and a spiritual arm. It would be in the best interests of the spiritual side to authenticate the candidate. It would also make sense that the fewest number of people knew the authentication process. That way no one else could duplicate it. Mommy dearest should have entrusted that information to a group of individuals who could not be bought by any political group but who were waiting patiently and hopefully for the return of their messiah. It would also make sense that Mommy Dearest wiped out anyone untrustworthy who might have been involved in the initial planning.

Sorry, I totally forgot about about the Mikey G shippers. So far Courtney's our only example of them. I'm guessing they number both ex-Max and ex-Kavar groupies.

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
We might find the other four worlds in agreement on most issues; they may constitute "one" party. What are the issues between them?!? If the group of them wasn't a charade set up by K' var; which I'm half-convinced of...

I can't remember which thread, either SF or Liz mythology, someone mentioned that Twilo's king might outrank and thus rule the other four leaders. So I think its feasible that they'd operate as a single unit. The current wars may just be a result of them all being equal and without a leader. I'm hoping we'll see all the factions present on all the planets.

SF

There've always been problems with the timeline...

If the granolith was installed before the pods, then that means it was brought here before 1947.

Not necessarily, it could have arrived in the crash (the dismantled version), but it was installed first when the cave was set up. I can't come up with a reason why, unless just to hide it with the pod structure. We know that it wasn't necessary for pod development. The NY4 did just fine (kinda) without a granolith. Nacedo had 40 years to play around with the pods. For all we know, getting the pods into a vertical orientation wasn't necessary until the foeti reached a certain size.

And it took 3 years to bring the podlings to Earth. How do you know that?

1) Proto-Max's father, dies: (probably K'var was involved.)
2) Proto-Max became king: (This is a monarchy folks, no democracy here.)
3) Proto-Max probably married next:
4) Proto-Max is killed and all hell breaks lose.

If we are to believe the 50 years war, then the pods were made before Vilandra's betrayal and before Proto-Max was assassinated. If the granolith was installed before the pods, then perhaps one of the decisions that Max made was to send the granolith away from the "V" constellation. He decided to put it away in a distant world for safe keeping. Which leaves a reason of why?

I agree with your timeline. Does that mean proto-Max was prescient - he knew what was coming or at least had an inclination as to the potential paths in his future. That almost points to the idea that he chose to die and come back as a hybrid. There were indicators for prescience in season 1. A prescient priest-King would also feed the whole religious aspect of the Monarchy.

And also, how would Mommy know to make podlings before the coup de tat?
That does point to proto-max knowing before the event, and it also indicates that their essences were duplicated while they were all alive. Creepy, but at least it must have been with their proto-selves consent.

This all seems very strange: My $ is that Proto-Max designed the whole destiny scheme in the first place. The next question is why? Did he know that he'd be sacraficed for his beliefs and leadership?

I also think the fifty years might be an approximation, but they sure are beating us over the head with it. If your timeline holds, I agree with you 100%, and it does point to proto-Max being able to see the future. It also points to it being necessary for him to die. If you can see the future and you can come up with a way not to die, I think you would. Well that sure has religious overtones, doesn't it?

Really interesting ideas Qfanny.

SF

Was Max omnipotent? He said he wasn't God, but maybe he was on Twilo (btw folks, I cringed really hard as I typed that).

bump

Was Max omnipotent? He said he wasn't God, but maybe he was on Twilo (btw folks, I cringed really hard as I typed that).

Dear Qfanny: Feel free to speculate...but my idea of God doesn't include alien teenagers (whether they have healing powers or not). I don't think Max or Proto-Zan were "gods" on Twilo. King Zan may have had religious significance to his followers..but he couldn't have been omnipotent...after all both King Zan, his father, his sister and his best friend and Bride...all died. I mean even good Catholics don't think the Pope is God....just God's representative on Earth.

By the way, I really enjoy your posts, QFanny, I just tend to lurk rather than post. Keep up the good work.

Jamethiel

"I shall believe"
"Days' not over."

Was Max omnipotent? He said he wasn't God, but maybe he was on Twilo (btw folks, I cringed really hard as I typed that).

Dear Qfanny: Feel free to speculate...but my idea of God doesn't include alien teenagers (whether they have healing powers or not). I don't think Max or Proto-Zan were "gods" on Twilo. King Zan may have had religious significance to his followers..but he couldn't have been omnipotent...after all both King Zan, his father, his sister and his best friend and Bride...all died. I mean even good Catholics don't think the Pope is God....just God's representative on Earth.

By the way, I really enjoy your posts, QFanny, I just tend to lurk rather than post. Keep up the good work.

Jamethiel

"I shall believe"
"Days' not over."

Reggie, I like your idea that there's a delay from the time of their deaths to Kavar formally coming into power. That makes sense.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
Hello

I agree with you very much SF in that I had a sense of a guardian/initiates group associated with the Granolith when I saw the Emissary scene. When you heard 'Temps' (BTW- I loved that scene and thought it clever and very funny) did you think [b]TEMPLARS, as in Knights Templars. [/B]

Great catch Rosta, sorry I've taken so long to get back to you. For some reason I got stuck on the Time-card. I've been trying to come up with a Grace-Kel/Nemo reason for it, but I haven't.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
The Templars, ... were the guardians of the 'secret' or the rituals and symbols associated with the family or the power.
I think this group, non-aligned politically but sworn to service to the anointed family.

Yes, it all fits in nicely with a non-partisan emissary...

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
The real intriguing (and fun) question becomes, if these are indeed Templar knights in function: who is the Grand Master of the Secret Order (and the members) which appoints the Emissaries??

I think that points to someone partisan, powerful and close to the royal family. Is Mommy Dearest still around? Unless of course the emissary is the equivalent of a grand master, and the secret order is wholly apolitical. That seems unlikely, but you never know. Interesting commentary on their monarchical structure that Mommy Dearest wasn't able to attain the throne, unless of course, she married into the royal line.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
SF, from the book, I am also reminded of the chapter about the end of the Merovingian lineage of annointed kings (the lineage=vine driven underground) and the Carolingian ascension of APPOINTED kings.

Are you hinting that Max and Is are equivalent to the Merovingian bloodline, and Kavar(maybe) and the other four are appointed?

SF

quote:Originally posted by Jamethiel:
Dear Qfanny: Feel free to speculate...but my idea of God doesn't include alien teenagers (whether they have healing powers or not). I don't think Max or Proto-Zan were "gods" on Twilo. King Zan may have had religious significance to his followers..but he couldn't have been omnipotent...after all both King Zan, his father, his sister and his best friend and Bride...all died. I mean even good Catholics don't think the Pope is God....just God's representative on Earth.

Hey Qfanny,

You've probably guessed that I'm a big proponent of the Max messianic story line, but I have to agree with Jamethiel that he is not omnipotent. I can't think of a single god incarnate that was omnipotent, be they ficitonal or non-fictional people. JC wasn't, Buddha wasn't, Valentine Smith wasn't (Stranger in a Strange Land - Heinlein), Muad'Dib wasn't (Dune - Herbert). Omnipotence and omniscience seem to be the exclusive terrain of non-corporeal gods.

But just because Max is not omnipotent doesn't mean that he's not a god-incarnate or at least perceived as one by his people. To be an incarnation of a god, you have to go throught the whole physical process, baby, child, adolescent, adult. LSS and others over on the SF threads drew a parallel between Max healing the bird and JC as a child bringing a clay pigeon to life.

OT: Has anyone else watched the new Dune mini-series on the SF channel? IMHO Dune is the best science fiction messianic story, and I will tip my hat to the Roswell writing team if their politics of Roswell come to even a tenth of the complexity and tightness of the politics of Dune.

SF

But just because Max is not omnipotent doesn't mean that he's not a god-incarnate or at least perceived as one by his people. To be an incarnation of a god, you have to go throught the whole physical process, baby, child, adolescent, adult. LSS and others over on the SF threads drew a parallel between Max healing the bird and JC as a child bringing a clay pigeon to life.
[Quote]

SF-

I think your theory of an incarnate 'god' role for Max is plausible. Besides, the writers wouldn't be writers if they didn't throw in a few "what ifs" for us to nibble on.

[Originally quoted by SF]
OT: Has anyone else watched the new Dune mini-series on the SF channel? IMHO Dune is the best science fiction messianic story, and I will tip my hat to the Roswell writing team if their politics of Roswell come to even a tenth of the complexity and tightness of the politics of Dune.

SF[/B]

Oh, Yes! I watched the whole six-hour mini-series and thought it was pretty well done. Not quite as charismatic as the David Lynch "Dune" but much more clear on the storytelling, ecological, and religious themes. I, too, will be very happy if the Roswell writers get even close to weaving such a dense political, scientific, religious and sociological world together for Roswell. Frankly, I don't think they can do it at this point, but I'm will to watch and be disproved. Besides, hopefully, we already have the "inside" scoop about Earth, the world where most of Roswell will take place....(see the Ronald Moore interview on Space.com).

Jamethiel
"I shall believe"

I read the Ron Moore interview, and I think it's great that they're going to keep the story earth bound. It's one less thing for Qfanny to have to worry about

SF

Even I didn't like the idea of Max as omnipotent, thus the cringe. But sometimes to throw away an idea, you first have to entertain it. Glad you two played along.

I wonder how the Hardings celebrated Christmas- perhaps this is Tess's first real Christmas? It would be interesting to see what Max might think she should know, and how he would teach her.

Remember:
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

(Well, it is a politics thread! )

When watching Dune, I was also struck by the similarities. I hope Roswell can handle the messianic storyline as well as Dune did.

Last spring when we saw the Mommogram, I groaned, thinking this was going to become a kiddy show where our heroes sword-fight bad aliens a few at a time, before they get their first fighter/saucer and take off to fight them in the air and finally space. The Cadmium X episode did nothing to ease my fears! Luckily, they have not settled for the simple good vs. evil storyline, and politics have become complicated, and will become much more so. I hope they can make their political situation seem more plausable than their "science" is.

Anybody think that Zan is a leader of the leaders? If he wasn't, what would be the big deal about another leader overthrowing him on one planet? Especially after over 50 years. A civil war on Zan's planet over the coup would not necessarily spill over onto another world - in fact, it might have been good for them to keep it going.

Zan may have been the central leader because:
1. he had the granolith and apparently no one else has one.
2. they all looked to him for answers at the summit table before Nicolas made K' var's offer as an answer to the problems.
3. his bump from the throne spilled over onto four other worlds.

If Zan is like Paul in Dune, the other planetary leaders may also be unaware of his religious and prophetic importance. Is the granolith the Twilo version of Spice and/or the Water of Life?

The reason why I question relationship of economies between the world is because power is usually based on ownership of assets. Aside from the granolith, protoMax/Zan's world had to have some leverage over the other four to perpel him to the position of central leader. I could just be because he has the granolith, but I would rather believe that commerce had a larger part in establishing his rule than a "religious object."

Is/Was Max/ProtoMax prescient/divine/omnipotent?

Maybe yes, maybe no, but he has the ability to time travel with the aid of his trusty Granolith, a la Future Max. And knowing the future -- or being able to foretell it as in Apollo's Oracle at Delphi -- would certainly go a long way in convincing his followers he had great power indeed.

The purpose of military operations is to protect investments, or to take over an assett. A king is not worth much if his property is worthless. There has to be a commercial advantage to war to justify the slaughter. The idea that worlds would war for the heck of war, well, that seems quite inhuman. (Oh-- maybe you're right!)

Zan may have been the central leader because:
1. he had the granolith and apparently no one else has one.
2. they all looked to him for answers at the summit table before Nicolas made K' var's offer as an answer to the problems.
3. his bump from the throne spilled over onto four other worlds.

If Zan is like Paul in Dune, the other planetary leaders may also be unaware of his religious and prophetic importance. Is the granolith the Twilo version of Spice and/or the Water of Life?

Since this discussion is going at such a glacial pace, I'll throw my hat in. I've got to agree with Palomino that Zan/Max looks like the great leader who has more power than the others, but I've got to agree with Qfanny that the power has to be economic. The granolith's symbolism and power seem more equivalent to the water of life than the spice. Something that is maybe seen on high days and holidays, and actually only used rarely to ???

quote: Originally posted by Qfanny Surely each world's civilization started as self - sufficient: but somehow the economies got tangled up and dependant upon one another. If one economy failed, they all failed.
The reason why I question relationship of economies between the world is because power is usually based on ownership of assets. Aside from the granolith, protoMax/Zan's world had to have some leverage over the other four to perpel him to the position of central leader. I could just be because he has the granolith, but I would rather believe that commerce had a larger part in establishing his rule than a "religious object."

That makes perfect sense. To use Palomino's Dune parallel, somehow Max's home world must have the equivalent of "spice," some necessary resource or technology that the other worlds need from it, otherwise why are they even involved. An interplanetary war must be exorbitantly costly. Unless all the royal houses are interconnected, and we're getting into the area of very old loyalties, like in Ireland, the Balkans, and the middle east.

quote: Originally posted by Reggie
Well, I don't recall any other king becoming king due to commercial considerations. Usually, isn't it due to a talent for military leadership? Or good choice in ancestors? Which leads me to the thought that The Granolyth can be used as some sort of weapon, or other device which can give military advantage. .

Reggie's point is also true. Historically, you're either born to be King (e.g., the Hapsburgs), or you make yourself King (e.g., a lot of Caesars, Napoleon). Of course you could be born to be king in an out of the way place, and it wouldn't gain you anything but local power. The longest reigning monarch was King Sobhuza the second of Swaziland. I'm not even sure that he's dead because his death barely made international news. Considering that we're talking about world leaders, it does kinda point at least historically to some great military leaders. Assuming that all societies go through similar stages, then at some point some nationalistic group had to go through an imperial expansion that totally covered a planet. Unless of course, all 5 planets were populated by colonists from yet another world, or, the other four planets were populated by colonists from Max's home world. The latter could explain the power structure, i.e., Max's world on top. The colonized planets might not yet be fully self sufficient. We could be seeing a parallel to the industrial revolution, with Max's planet out of raw materials , but with the super-structure necessary to produce finished goods using raw materials from the other four worlds. Although the summit points to the other four worlds being independently ruled, maybe they still owe an allegiance to the founding world. Maybe at this point it's more for historical reasons than for any real economic reasons, like the nations in the British commonwealth.

SF

SF

Another point against the trading-consortium idea. With space so "big", and personal travel so difficult, shipping large quantities of raw materials around would drive the prices of the finished goods too high. I might believe spices, or other things that are difficult to make localy, and bring a very high price per unit weight.

If for instance, the aliens are a race of shapeshifters that find it hard to stay in one body or shape, the Granolyth might be the source of "bodily" stability or integrity.

Other possibilities involve the idea of "possession" across great distances, what if the aliens occasionally get stuck in the "host's" body? It might be that the Royal 4 have the ability to guide their community (think of lighthouses guiding ships) back to their proper sphere.

I'm just saying that in science fiction, while it can be used to illuminate patterns that already exist on Earth, it can also be use to postulate "new patterns."

Personally, I think the five stars/planets in Max's head represent five different alien races joined together by a common ability to use their minds to connect to each other and to share ideas, love, communion. Some manage the trick of physical transference from one planet to another (flying saucers anyone?) but "trade" per se is not the goal. Somehow, (I suspect) the Granolyth acts as a "great server" on the galactic internet. Whoever owns it and controls it can disrupt or further communication for all time? Anyway, that is just one of the many ideas I like to explore.

Jamethiel
"I shall believe."

True, but was Rath's comment about space being "big" more referencing intergalactic (FTL) travel -- the home world to earth -- or all space travel. We still don't know if the 5 worlds are in one system, or up to five systems, but whatever turns out to be the story, we can at least assume that they're all located in the same area. There also has to be some kind of contact between them beyond communication, or why go to war. The energy costs of moving large volumes of materials from one planet to another are mainly at the point of getting them off the planet and to the cargo ship. Maybe they have something like an ST transporter, but whatever technology or method they use, if demand is high enough, cost should come down.

I think Jamethiel makes a good point. There's no reason that the politics or economics have to remain with in the audiences frame of reference. Some of the reasons could be really out there, we just need to have enough of a frame work that we can appropriately interpret whatever oddball information they end up giving us.

quote:Originally posted by Jamethiel:
If for instance, the aliens are a race of shapeshifters that find it hard to stay in one body or shape, the Granolyth might be the source of "bodily" stability or integrity.

I was playing around with a similar idea, where one of the world's has something that the other worlds not only want, but actually need. The populations of the other four worlds could have been engineered so that they have to have something that only Max's homeowlrd can supply. That still doesn't fit in with 5 autonomous monarchies.

quote:Originally posted by Jamethiel:
Personally, I think the five stars/planets in Max's head represent five different alien races joined together by a common ability to use their minds to connect to each other and to share ideas, love, communion. Some manage the trick of physical transference from one planet to another (flying saucers anyone?) but "trade" per se is not the goal. Somehow, (I suspect) the Granolyth acts as a "great server" on the galactic internet. Whoever owns it and controls it can disrupt or further communication for all time? Anyway, that is just one of the many ideas I like to explore.

So do you still think the granolith is still serving it's ultimate purpose from earth, and that's actually the real reason no one's noticed that it's gone?

SF

First, we have seen FMax use the granolith for travel back in time. (FMax probably did not know much about the granolith and our improved Max will learn more.) What if King Zan went time hopping too? He had the granolith and presumably has the same power as the other leaders to go on "walk-about" on Earth. What if he time hopped to the future - say 2003 Earth - and met Liz who he fell in love with and bonded to. Then he returned to his own time/planet only to be killed. When he was resurrected as Max, he recognized her even though they hadn't met yet, because to Max/Zan, it was in the past life he had known her. Just a thought

Second, Zan is king, but was it actually mentioned that the other leaders were royalty? I don't think they said, so maybe the other leaders are more like dukes and earls, or governors. That could explain why a king being overthrown on one world would upset four other worlds, and keep a war going for over half a century - the whole monarchy/government/succession etc is up in the air.

Sound reasonable?

SF

Yes, I think it is entirely possible that the Granolyth is functioning from Earth. It may have been moved to Earth for "safekeeping" and the podsters are its ultimate "guardians." Kind of like a game of "capture the transmitter" that we saw occur in Yugoslavia & Russia during the recent "upheavals."

Okay, I love Palomino's idea about the earls/governors approach to the other four planets! They are all essentially equals in their equivalent of aristocracy, so they *need* a king-type to follow. If this king came from a strict succession, then unless K'var can claim some royal blood, he won't ever been seen as legitimate, and none of the others can claim the throne for the same reason. None of the others comes from the right 'house.'

Legitimacy may have been the whole intent behind the (I'm assuming here) seduction of Vilandra. Her death may have been an unforseen accident because a marriage to her might have legitamized K'var's rise to power, and certainly any children they had would have inherited the throne as a result. Maybe if she had lived, nobody would give a darn about King Zan...

Anyway, for whatever reason, Max comes from the right house. The relationship between the House and the Granolith is still very unclear (if there is any relationship at all). I think if the war was more economic than anything, we wouldn't see such a determination to confer with Max and find the Granolith. After all, if K'var could deliver the goods, literally (in the capitalist sense), who cares who's on the throne?

tanchel

Just bumping up.

Ree99

On the *Liz's Importance to Alien Mythology* thread, Tristan asks if the granolith could be like TITAN in the movie TITAN A.E. (which I've not seen). He mentions that the story revolves around a ship called TITAN which was hidden when earth is about to be destroyed by the evil aliens. The TITAN carries all the genetic material and elements of Earth and when activated it can create another Earth.

Maybe the granolith's function is not to serve as a weapon but as some type of tool for survival (or resurrection) in the event a looming disaster befalls the homeworlds?

Ree99

It seems to me that war is usually fought for emotional, not economic reasons. Over religion, territory of religious (not commerical) significance. Think of the Balkans, or the Middle East. There are exceptions, of course, but I certainly find it plausible that the interplanetary war is idealogical. So far we know nothing about the other leaders. Zan was a king, Kavar was a duke before he replaced Zan. But we didn't get titles for the leaders of the other planets, so we don't know they are all monarchies. They could be democratic, communist, fascist, or even theocracies.

ProtoMax became king by birthright.

It is possible to be royal through marriage (Michael & Tess).

There are economic classes.

Proto-Max inherited a bad situation.

Proto-Max may have been considered a diety during his reign, but following his death, his followers perpelled him into this "Christ" archeotype.

The alien races involved range from 3 (podsters, SSers, Skins) to 8 or possible more.

Each alien race has factions within themselves.

The V planets are economically dependant on each other.

What did I miss?

Qfanny:
You might add this to your list (well done BTW) -

Larek said Zan was:
a. doing too much too soon
b. trying hard to make things better for his people.

Nicolas said Zan:
a. made bad decisions

Courtney said Zan:
a. had prevented "our planet" from achieving its Golden Age
b. had not brought all the factions together to make peace.

I would tend to think that the Skins are looking at things from a very selfish (and as Mommy put it "evil") perspective. Why would anyone want Zan back if he was so bad? I thing Zan must have been a good ruler, but the Skins are basically selfish, violent people that run amuck without the rule of Zan. If he had made "bad decisions", it must have been good for the majority or moral, and the Skins didn't get what they wanted.

Another point: There have to be more SSers out there.
1. Pierce said that four had been captured.
He didn't say how many weren't captured.
He never said if the one in captivity had died, changed sides, been rescued, or escaped.
2. If the granolith had been sent to Earth prior to the podsters' ill-fated trip, where are the SSers from that? They would not have been sent back!
3. What about the SSer that was supposed to have been protecting the NY 4? (or did they eat him?) It could not have been Nasedo.

Where is Tic-tac?
Sleeping with the red herrings.

Qfanny:
You might add this to your list (well done BTW) -

Larek said Zan was:
a. doing too much too soon
b. trying hard to make things better for his people.

Nicolas said Zan:
a. made bad decisions

Courtney said Zan:
a. had prevented "our planet" from achieving its Golden Age
b. had not brought all the factions together to make peace.

I would tend to think that the Skins are looking at things from a very selfish (and as Mommy put it "evil") perspective. Why would anyone want Zan back if he was so bad? I thing Zan must have been a good ruler, but the Skins are basically selfish, violent people that run amuck without the rule of Zan. If he had made "bad decisions", it must have been good for the majority or moral, and the Skins didn't get what they wanted.

Another point: There have to be more SSers out there.
1. Pierce said that four had been captured.
He didn't say how many weren't captured.
He never said if the one in captivity had died, changed sides, been rescued, or escaped.
2. If the granolith had been sent to Earth prior to the podsters' ill-fated trip, where are the SSers from that? They would not have been sent back!
3. What about the SSer that was supposed to have been protecting the NY 4? (or did they eat him?) It could not have been Nasedo.

Where is Tic-tac?
Sleeping with the red herrings.

Okay, I love Palomino's idea about the earls/governors approach to the other four planets! They are all essentially equals in their equivalent of aristocracy, so they *need* a king-type to follow. If this king came from a strict succession, then unless K'var can claim some royal blood, he won't ever been seen as legitimate, and none of the others can claim the throne for the same reason. None of the others comes from the right 'house.'

Legitimacy may have been the whole intent behind the (I'm assuming here) seduction of Vilandra. Her death may have been an unforseen accident because a marriage to her might have legitamized K'var's rise to power, and certainly any children they had would have inherited the throne as a result. Maybe if she had lived, nobody would give a darn about King Zan...

Anyway, for whatever reason, Max comes from the right house. The relationship between the House and the Granolith is still very unclear (if there is any relationship at all). I think if the war was more economic than anything, we wouldn't see such a determination to confer with Max and find the Granolith. After all, if K'var could deliver the goods, literally (in the capitalist sense), who cares who's on the throne?

tanchel

Ohhhhh, yes!!!! Kivar needed Vilandra to legitimize his claim to the throne.

BTW... wars primarily begin for economic, not religious or moralistic, reasons. Power comes from economic strength. Wars on our little planet usually have started over territory, scarcity of goods, and the over whelming desire to have what the other guy has.

I was thinking about the relationship of the 5 systems, and of Zan's seeming superior position as head muckity-muck, and it came to me that it is almost like he was the Emperor of the Holy Roman Empire. There were all these kingdoms, with their own cultures and monarchs, but the Emperor was THE big cheese.
The whole feudal system began as a way of protection against maurading groups, such as the Vikings, who would swoop in and steal everything they could lay their hands on, killing and pillaging along the way. The strongest warrior became the king, dividing up his territory among his lesser knights, who in turn, swore to protect the kingdom.
Perhaps, in the early days of this alliance, they were being attacked from other tribes from other civilizations (read that as "other planets") and formed this "federation" based on mutual protection. Now here it is, many generations later, and the throne has become hereditary, as it became on our world.
The present king, Zan, is perhaps not the great warrior that his ancestor was, and is even too, shall we say, democratic in his thinking. Perhaps this is where the Michael worshippers got the idea that Michael was the one who could hold things together, because he WAS the great warrior.
Kivar, on the other hand, was merely greedy. He wanted the power that Zan had, so he schemed, and manipulated, and took it. AND, to legitimize his claim to the emperor's throne, he wanted the royal sister. Vilandra, in turn, admired Kivar for his seeming strength (They say power is the greatest aphrodisiac ) .

As for species or races, you would think K' var and Valandra would need to be the same and breathe the same air. The CW said, "Your kind doesn't rule anymore". There is something about Zan that boarders on the religious. Is he something even more than Valandra's kind? We don't know how far NY Zan was corrupted, but the NM one is close to angelic, with a dark side from being tortured that he seems to have problems dealing with.

The SSers are becoming more suspicious. Are they Max's kind? Nasedo never says, in fact, he is very careful not to say anything. He even kept most facts from the one he raised for eleven years - which is quite a feat of determination or duty. His only job was to keep them alive, yet he looked at Max with true affection. Are the SSers a group under Zan's rule, or separate from it?

Brody said in "Ask Not" he was "abducted" seven years ago. That would have made it 1993.

I could easily come up with plausible answers to your questions, the problem is the writers will come up with something different, and not necessarily plausible.

What if the emissary(sp) was like a religious neutral person - like a vatican official? What if he was from another race that is not involved in the war, that all sides trusted to be fair and truthful about whether or not the kid from New Mexico was a hybrid human/dead alien king? Whoever he was, he did call Max/Zan "Your Highness", which means the emissary himself was probably also under Zan's authority, or at least had polite respect for him.

And if other points in the V glowed, we might get an impression of just where Michael and Tess came from, whether or not they might have been from other factions, and thus marriages to them may have been more political necessity than anything.

The only thing that worries me is that we can't be absolutely sure that Zan wouldn't have possessed the seal as well. If he did, then his group would have been just as legitimate. Even though I'd like to agree with whoever pointed out the confusion having two 'sealed' rulers would cause back home, and thus the orchestraters of this little adventure wouldn't have created two Kings, it's not like this entire plan hasn't been frought with confusion in the first place! There are tons of things we can all point to that indicate a less-than-coherent approach to saving the homeworld.

tanchel

I do not think Zan had a royal seal on his head I mean look at what he said to Rath at the begininng of Meet the Dupes," They dont want us they want the royal four." And look how Rath reacted when Max had the seal on his head. He was suprised and even shocked and when he explains to Max about the V constellation, the royal seal and their planet he says something like," Yeah, and you must have this stenciled on your brain or something." Which indicates to me that he did not know that the emissary would be looking for something such as the royal seal on the brain. Because in the case that he had known [Rath and Lonnie] that would mean to me that they killed Zan purposely to get the real king to come to the summit the king that would past the emissary's test and would give them the pass to "Marinate" to quote Rath on some of the other members of the councilate which enable them to go home.Also, if Zsn was killed purposely is the case it would lend it self to the fact as you mentioned that there cannot be two kings, I mean on our world an heir that has a brother to compete for the thrown is considered dangerous imagine having the duplicate of you competeing for the thrown it would be total chaos.

Rath didn't know about the seal, and neither did Max (of course, Max knows virtually nothing about the home world anyway). The NYFour were contacted first, indicating that perhaps the Emissary didn't care which set showed up. Zan didn't feel like going (we don't know why), and the others set out to grab Max. But what if Zan had gone? Either Rath and Lonnie would have gotten a huge surprise (Zan too) and discovered they weren't the legitimate set (which again, begs the question of WHY HAVE ANOTHER SET?), or Zan would have had the seal, and the NMFour could have had all their problems solved.

I just think the homeworld was hedging its bets and had both sets as legitimate the entire time. It was remarkably convenient that Rath and Lonnie killed Zan, since it prevented that brotherly conflict we all could forsee, but I think that was, sadly, sheer luck on for the homeplanet, to have the potential two-rulers problem solved for them like that.

tanchel

I think that when the Four in New York were contacted I think that contact was given to them by Nicholas not the emissary. I mean why would the other protector throw the other maybe royal four in the sewer? Yes they could have been the resolution in case anything happen to the rea royal four, but there has to be some way to find out who are the true royals and the duplicates. I think the dupes were as Nicholas put it the rejects and that is why they were dumped. I think that the protectors were sent there with two sets of the royal four one set was to throw the skins off of the true royals and the others were the legit ones. This is kind of why I think that the pod squad will be or just Max will be the only ones with a royal seal this would give reason to why the Emissary needed to sanctify the King to prove that it was the real king and not a dupe. Just friendly speculation

I think that yes Zan would have the essence of King Max and yes if something happened to Max Zan could be used as a new model but if that would ever happen I think that would be when the seal would be stenciled on his brain moving the legitimacy to Zan because the intended king had died. Kind of like an heir to a throne recieves his fathers signet ring to identify him as heir to watever house sits on the throne. I do not think it would have been given before that incident had occured

And yes, I can see Nikolas manipulating the NYFour from the beginning, pretending to be the Emissary, pushing their buttons to the point that Zan is killed. Now there's only one *king*, legitimate or otherwise, left, and Nikolas would be quite happy to see Max dead too.

I guess we'll never know entirely about the seals, but it's definitely fun to speculate/debate, especially with this group. I just don't always trust that Momma and her cohorts thought this little plan through. It had to be a very last-ditch effort, and there were bound to be big loopholes in it all. And obviously tons of unforeseen stuff came up along the way: Nasedo losing his charges, the NMicans being raised human, etc.

tanchel

Can you tell I am going to college for prelaw I agree with everything you said and yes I love to speculate Especially when people agree with me. When people disagree is fun too it makes me want to think harder espsecially when it comes to this show with all its twisted subplots

This new Atheist Max - how does this play into what we've already said about Max "I'm not God" Evans?

I'm always ready to revisit the Messiah story line. Dreamdancer and tanchel's discussion of the dupes got me thinking. I've been operating under the dupes as decoys idea, but it doesn't seem to work. For the decoys to be effective, they'd need to be more high profile -- they need to be found by the enemy first. IMHO the NY4 and the NM4 were equally well hidden. Qfanny and I had a similar discussion on Rosta's Signs and Symbols thread. If the dupes are the one and only copy of the essense (to keep it alive, you have to keep it in a live body), why risk the possible destruction of your back up essence by sending it to earth. The only explanation I can think of is that there was no safe place to hide it (them) back in the home system. I'm of the opinion that if there is anyway for the essence to exist frozen, there are multiple frozen vials of it dotted in super cold freezers all over the home system, and the "code" of the essence is stored in the granolith.

Anyway, I have a different theory to offer. Frontline has been doing a show on Early Chrisitianity. In the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Essenes wrote about expecting two Messiahs. The Messiah of Aaron who would fulfill a spiritual role, the Priest Messiah, and the Messiah of David who would be King, a political role. I know this is a bit of a stretch, but maybe the duplicate royal fours have different functions. When the time comes to save the home world maybe the better-suited-to-the-current-situation four will get brought back. Of course now that Zan's dead, that's certainly screwed things up. Max's role has become more politicized. Once John the Baptist (of the priestly line of Aaron) was killed, JC began his ministry. After Zan's death, Max took his place at the summit. Parallels?? I agree it's a big stretch, but even though the dupes are technically identical, the pairs displayed a duality; Max the pacifist, Zan the militant; Lonnie the power hungry, Isabel the nurturer; Rath the punk, Michael the soldier/navigator; Tess the yes-man, Ava the door-mat. Not much duality to the latter!

I've been working up the different parts of the messianic story line. Please feel free to add.

Max has been brought back from the dead and reincarnated so he can return home to free his people. He's been presecuted because he's different, and he's been "sanctified" by the emissary that he is the true "king." He's also known he can heal since he was a child. The healing of the bird could parallel JC creating a bird from clay when he was a child (I believe this is from the Gnostic Chronicles, but it was LSS who first referenced it). He is a selective miracle worker, and can heal gunshot wounds and terminal cancer, but he has a problem with the brain damage caused by a stroke.

Here's a definition of Messiah, it literally means "the anointed one" (or in max's case - the brain engraved one :lol, or to put it another way, the one who will be king. It also has the connotation of liberator, the messiah liberates an oppressed group, which implies political and military considerations.

Happy Holidays to all of the Politics of Roswell posters and lurkers. This is always such a good thread.

SF

But if this parallel applies to our Podsters' situation, is it possible that the Michael-worshippers suffered from the same disillusionment? That the Messiah wasn't at all what they thought he would be (a military genius freeing them all from bondage), and thus they began looking around for a Saviour who would fit those preconceptions?

We don't know exactly what this Golden Age Courtney talked about actually WAS, but she implied it meant a period of peace, when all the factions subsided. Maybe they thought this peace couldn't be accomplished without military might; Michael was supposed to unite the warring factions, but how? I love Michael, but let's get real--he is NOT a negotiator and I doubt his diplomatic skills are what they wanted him for.

tanchel

Problems with the Zan/John the Baptist coincidence: Zan was killed by his own people. John was basically killed for sport.

Tanchel brought up JC refusing to take an aggressive stance against the Romans, which ties in nicely with the Max/Michael 'who's in charge here' drama. Max likely refused to go to war over power. Seems like that would be in character for him. Have any of you heard the theories about Jesus' 'missing years' - the time of his young adulthood? Some have put forth the idea that JC was doing some heavy trade in eastern thought, hanging with Buddha, catching up on the Indian subcontinent. Definitely a reincarnation theme going on here. Apparently there is Eastern art from the time period that depicts a bearded god-man coming to town. I wish I could recall more detail.

I didn't think of Messiah in the sense of liberator of an oppressed group - but you're right, SF, that is one sense.

Tanchel, I too am hung up on Courtney's Golden Age, but not in that it was a time of peace (after all, Michael is clearly a hawk, not a dove). I interpreted this in the sense of the European Renaissance/Enlightenment, which was certainly a golden age of science and art, but also a time of much military presence and conquests/exploration.

Happy Holidays to you all as well, and to all a good...well, you know the rest.

This new Atheist Max - how does this play into what we've already said about Max "I'm not God" Evans?

Well, I'll admit I'm uncomfortable with the Max as Messiah theme, to the extent that it presents Max (or any of the aliens) as God. Or gods.

Max as a spiritual leader? Perhaps, at least to some extent. Someone's taken an awful lot of trouble to create Max, Zan, etc. If he was just a good king, he might not be worth the trouble. If you figure that K' var could be overthrown by someone, why go to the bother of recreating King Max; and not even a full copy? We've heard him described by Skins as having a legendary aura. Still, would we want Presidents Washington, Lincoln, FDR or Kennedy back? Without their life experiences to guide them? Surely there are candidates still alive who would do. There's got to be something else... he must have been a great king.

As for the atheist Max, that doesn't reflect on Twilonian theology. Max has never been exposed to it, so how would he know? <shrug> Truth to tell, "Peace on Earth, and good will toward Man" does not say anything about Twilo or aliens; by implication, it excludes them. I believe that most religions are framed or phrased this way, excluding those who are "not from around here".

It's not unreasonable for Max to feel there's nothing there for him. Michael, on the other hand, is perhaps beginning to notice that there may be something answering his prayers. Hedging his bets, he calls it. I hope we see more of this.

The alien girls just seem to want a nice, normal, human Christmas. This was Tess's first Christmas (she said that the Hardings didn't celebrate). She did a nice job, though. Isabel The Christmas Nazi had a touching moment, too, when she had the "rescue" gift laid out for Michael. This is interesting:

Michael refers to it as one of his prayers being answered; yet all know that Isabel did it. The prayers of the childrens' parents were answered, and we know that Max did that. Max did not attribute to God, what he did himself; yet Michael does, for what Isabel did. Is Michael willing to see the inspiration to do good things as divine action? If so, then perhaps he should have a chat with Max! Remember what he's said: why did you heal? "I couldn't not."

And did anyone else notice the similarities between Lonnie and Isabel? Both forceful people, who go after what they want, and run roughshod over anyone who gets in their way? I wonder whether Villandra was like this, or whether she was more like Ava: quiet, retiring, and usable. Are the current incarnations like V., or a reaction to V.'s troubles? We've speculated that Max & Zan were hesitant and retiring, because King Max was too bold. There's also the possibility that Michael and Rath are loose cannons, because "Number Two" was too loyal. And Tess/Ava (this season, anyway); so much the yes-man, always going along and never taking the initiative: what was "Bride" like? The same, or also an opposite?

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:

And did anyone else notice the similarities between Lonnie and Isabel? Both forceful people, who go after what they want, and run roughshod over anyone who gets in their way? I wonder whether Villandra was like this, or whether she was more like Ava: quiet, retiring, and usable. Are the current incarnations like V., or a reaction to V.'s troubles? We've speculated that Max & Zan were hesitant and retiring, because King Max was too bold. There's also the possibility that Michael and Rath are loose cannons, because "Number Two" was too loyal. And Tess/Ava (this season, anyway); so much the yes-man, always going along and never taking the initiative: what was "Bride" like? The same, or also an opposite?

For what it's worth, Reggie, I've amended one of my earlier ideas that Max wasn't much of a leader. In fact, I called him Hamletesque. I regret that statement based on both Max in the City and Christmas Carol. But I'd never characterize King Max as too bold. Righteous, maybe, but bold seems to be the province of Michael alone. I think you're right in that their current incarnations are like their past ones. This is undoubtedly why Isabel struggles with her past, instead of rejecting it as ancient history not to be bothered with today. She clearly sees something in herself that is distasteful to her, that worries her. Tess/Ava are maintaining the "essences" of their character; as the loyal helpmate (more than ever, I get the mother bear vibe from Tess - stopping at nothing to protect and nurture her cubs in the nest). Michael/Rath (Wrath?) are the most like each other and like their prior selves. As leaders of their people, they each seemed to serve a particular governmental or ceremonial function that was wedded to their characters.

In case I don't manage to check in again, have a lovely holiday week.

Michael refers to it as one of his prayers being answered; yet all know that Isabel did it. The prayers of the childrens' parents were answered, and we know that Max did that. Max did not attribute to God, what he did himself; yet Michael does, for what Isabel did. Is Michael willing to see the inspiration to do good things as divine action? If so, then perhaps he should have a chat with Max! Remember what he's said: why did you heal? "I couldn't not."

Reggie...This is a great analysis! Michael knows both Isobel and Max are responsible for his "prayers being answered." But he knows that the Isobel rescuing him with a present for Maria is not normal. (Brother and sister relationships are usually a bit more antagonistic...at least they have been in my experience, at that age I would have let my brother sweat). And we don't know exactly how Michael got Max rescued from that hospital room, but I'm willing to bet that Michael didn't think Max had it in him. So what I'm trying to say is that Michael is being more subtle in his analysis of events than Max has been. Michael recognizes that the ability to "open one's heart" to others may be divine in inspiration.

[Quote]
And did anyone else notice the similarities between Lonnie and Isabel? Both forceful people, who go after what they want, and run roughshod over anyone who gets in their way? I wonder whether Villandra was like this, or whether she was more like Ava: quiet, retiring, and usable. Are the current incarnations like V., or a reaction to V.'s troubles? We've speculated that Max & Zan were hesitant and retiring, because King Max was too bold. There's also the possibility that Michael and Rath are loose cannons, because "Number Two" was too loyal. And Tess/Ava (this season, anyway); so much the yes-man, always going along and never taking the initiative: what was "Bride" like? The same, or also an opposite?[/B]

I think you are right on with this idea! Hope the writers give us more to chew on.

Happy Holidays all...however and whenever you celebrate.

Jamethiel
"I shall believe."

tanchel

Understatement!

Whatever your beliefs are, I believe that Christ was crucified because of political reasons and not spiritual ones. Christ was the one that overturned the money tables at the Temple. There was economic reasons to follow him. He promised a Kingdom to his followers.

If we make a comparison between Max and Christ we must also look at what Christ was to his enemies and to his followers. We cannot just look at the miracles. To me, historical Christ was a political leader that rose out of a conservative Jewish background. He knew the prophecies, and fullfilled them, to prove his legitimacy. (Max has the V on his brain to prove his.) Christ galvinized his following by performing miracles. (Max's healing of the kids will become PR work. I cannot believe Brody won't pick up this alien intervention.) In His resurrection, He became savior of the world. (The statement of past and future king by Skin Fallwell indicates a mythology.)

I feel that the Christ parallel is important but more because in Christ's time, He was a political leader, more so than a religious leader. And comparing Max to Christ as a political hero would make my mind rest much easier.

I feel that the Christ parallel is important but more because in Christ's time, He was a political leader, more so than a religious leader. And comparing Max to Christ as a political hero would make my mind rest much easier.

I agree that Brody should have alarm bells going off, about silver handprints. These seem to be famous among the (fictional) UFOlogists, like Brody; and they did mention handprints on the kids.

I agree that Max should be made a political hero, not so much a religious one; unless he's a priest, Dali Lama, or some such mortal.

About Max-as-type-of-Christ: JC was, as has been pointed out above, executed for political reasons, at least from the viewpoint of those who did the executing. On paper, JC claims it was part of the Plan to pay the Price to set the Oppressed Free. This parallels Liz's sacrifice in TEOTW. However, regarding Max, if the sacrifice on Twilo mirrors JC's with regards to motives as I explain them here (and others may choose to give another explanation), then the Mommogram message would be basically true: The enemies thought they executed Max et al to gain power and surpress a populous uprising, but it merely gave a cover to the plan to hide the essences so they could come back to liberate the oppressed (on the third day? "to God, 1000 yrs = 1 day").

But maybe Mom didn't really understand it all. Maybe she wasn't privy to the Granolith stuff. Thinking Run Lola Run, the question now is: will Max again be called upon to give up his life? That seems to be Kvar/Nicholas' plan. And since K/N is a type of Satan, it would seem that Max might appear to die, but rise again (the Roswell Easter Special?). And we viewers know better anyway, because this is TVland, not Movieland, so they won't kill off the hero (even Mulder languishes in a pergatory of the living).

Sorry this isn't making much sense.
Gotta go.

Happy Hollidays!

Looking through these posts, I think I'm seeing several different, but somewhat structurally similar, themes here for the "rule" of Zan/Max:

royalty by birth (King Zan, court of dukes, earls, etc. with allegiances established through older, ingrained beliefs and practices)

royalty by force (Zan Caesar, with a senate of ambitious, politically driven opponents/supporters)

democracy (President Zan, states [worlds] of governers, etc.)

economic (CEO Zan, administrator of assets with other-world clients)

religious (Dahli Zan, keeper of the granolith, leader of worshipful followers)

progressive (Starship Captain Zan, guiding those joined (as Jamethiel so nicely expressed it) by a common ability to use their minds to connect to each other and to share ideas, love, communion)

I realize that more than one of these may apply to his situation (maybe all). I'm just trying to get a handle on all the possibilities and then go back and start plugging in your great ideas here and there for each one. Does that make sense?

Would you all let me know if I'm missing anything? Thanks for any help you can give me!

Ree99

A long week? I know what you mean...

Well, let's see. I think you've covered pretty well all the possible organizations; none come to mind that you haven't. I think we can rule out some of these. The democracy, economic, and progressive models all would allow for a replacement of "the boss" with someone else, in the normal course of operations. Since Twilo seems to be having convulsions, due to the change in ruler, I'll think that none of these is the one. Since Max's father seems to have been King (although we aren't actually told this), I think royalty by force is unlikely. It's possible that Max's father became King by force, but this leads back to the problem with the first three I mentioned: if a forcable change in rulers is common, then the ascention of K' var should not be disturbing.

What's left is royalty by birth, and religious. Personally, I'm thinking that Max was both a religious figure, and a king who became king when his father died. This would explain the reluctance to accept K' var as king. Ava was impressed when she learned how Liz was resurrected. It could be that her reaction was both for Liz's change, and for Max's ability to do it. (We don't know if Zan could have done this; we may doubt that he would have wanted to! Rath was also impressed that Max had the Royal Mark, but this could have been an act.) If Max's ability is unusual, it may be that this is the hallmark of a religous leader and/or True King. This would also suggest against the democracy, economic, and progressive models. All these pretty much assume that the leader is a talented commoner, not a true miracle worker.

Max also was entrusted with The Granolyth. Whatever it is supposed to do, it's important. Yet, it wasn't kept home under lock and key - it was shipped off to Earth with the child Max. Why?!? It only makes sense if Max is somehow special, even as a child. This suggests the religious leader possibility, if not making Max himself an object of veneration. If Max is a miracle worker, then perhaps he could safeguard The Granolyth.

I very much don't like the idea of Max as a divine being. It would explain some things, but create far more problems. For example, why does Max fail to revive Liz's grandmother? Why would the "Michael worshippers" think Michael should have overthrown a divine Max? How would K' var overthrow a god? Wouldn't Isabel, his sister, have some portion of divinity as well? It's also not a good story, in my opinion. Perhaps Max's power is not divine, but of a secular supernatural?

So: Max, as a hereditary king, and some sort of Personage with access to power.
Or something like that...

Refering to my discussion with SF on Rosta's thread, I believe that the NM4 could not have been created without the NY4. The NY4 were needed on Earth in case something should happen to the NM4. Only the NM4 would ever be considered the "recreated" versions of their former selves. I agree with SF that both were equally well hidden. And I also agree with Palomino that there are possibly more SSers out there (aside from TicTac).

If there is anything I know, the Twilonese have a strange, round about way of doing things. At one level, you think it's pretty advanced and progressive, but then you realize that illogic in some of their operations makes you wonder how they could have a superior technology in the first place.

What do you mean by Michael shapeshifting? Are you equating his change of fingerprints with shapeshifting done by Nasedo? It has a similarity but, I think, only superficially. IMHO, I really don't think Michael has Nasedo's ability to completely shapeshift. Nasedo had a different physiology than Michael (remember "biolgy lessons later") perhaps being a different species or race. There has been much speculation regarding the possibly different Twilo (P-SAWN) species/races on the Sci-Fi thread, including whether the Rath and Lonnie dupes shapeshifted in MtD. It seems though that these two just manipulated the clothing/jewelry/hair molecules, not the physical makeup of their bodies.

Anyway, for what it is worth.

Happy holidays.

Also some posters are concerned about the 50 year war time frame but historically speaking that is relatively short ie.england:duke richard seized the throne leading to the 100 year war of the roses with only 2 factions involved or japan when the oni clan seized the emperor it led to over 500 years of war between dozens of clans.

As for the granolith it is an obviously powerful source of power but also has powerful symbolic signifigance to the twilos such as a crown in reality is a simple band of metal however the signifigance the society endows in it is such that people die for it willingly, and not just a crown natives chiefs and there bonnet of eagle feathers or our modern national flags are not any different- a person is the enemy because of a differennt colored flag?

Just a thought has anyone considered that Kvar while perhaps for politcal reasons wanted to marry Is/Vil but what if he TRULY LOVED HER and when she was betrothed to another staged a coup as the only way to have her?!!

BW

We've been assuming that they need to have him back. Otherwise, why go to all the trouble to "clone" him and the others?

What if Twilo doesn't really need Max & Co. back but they think they do? If we really parallel Christ...think about all the groups waiting for Christ's return.

I'm just speculating, but there are a few hints that a "Prophesy" of some sort is involved in the podsters lives. We have "Run, Lola, Run" allusions, we have the "Destiny" book, we have Momogram wanting her children to return, we have "Courtney's 'golden age.'" It all points to the Twilonese expecting their Royal Four to accomplish some great thing that didn't get done before they died. What if it wasn't supposed to happen on Twilo, but was meant to happen on Earth? I mean humans get Prophecies wrong all the time, I can see the Twilonese being so Twilocentric that they wouldn't realize that the "master plan" didn't necessarily have to occur on Twilo.

Anyway, that is my thought for the day.

Jamethiel
"I shall believe."

I'd like to think that, given the level of desperation the Twilonese have shown, the Royal Four actually are somehow crucial. Otherwise, I'm just going to start thinking of them as the Planets Not-So-Bright.

Anybody else want to know what the plan looked like from the beginning, before the unforeseen crash, the loss of explanatory materials, etc? I just want a diagram, a little something, maybe even just a translation of that metal book Tess retrieved from the library...

tanchel

tanchel
Santa brought me a new keyboard. Yeah! I can type a B again.

Many thoughts occur to me regarding two items we've discussed here as relating to the politics of "The Not So Bright Planets" and Twilo from ARCC.

The first being, this underlaying idea that Max may be considered a deity on Twilo and whether or not he's omnipotent. ARCC seemed to settle this idea that Max believed in a Divine Power. (And thus squashing the idea that religion has any relevance in his daily life.) But after Friday's encore presentation (thanks WB), I realized what the miracle actually was now. It was not Max saving the lives of children, but Max recognizing that there was a "higher power". Liz went to the candle light service because she believed in God, and Michael did too. Max showed up and Liz said, "I thought you didn't believe in God." And Max's response was, "I believe in you."

He believes in what Liz believes... And the miracle is Max accepting the fact that he should respect the forces that seemingly control their (podsters) lives. This seems so obvious to me now, but at the end when Max and Liz look up into the sky, it cemented (pun intended) their importance in the GRAND SCHEME of things.

Politically, if Max does in fact acknowledged a higher power than himself; then that would reaffirm the suggested fuedal structure the Twilo world has for government. Max's birthright is in fact, God given. And the fact he's been recreated to be the future king of Twilo, reaffirms an intervention of perhaps Divine design.

Personally, I think that the religious/mythological undercurrents from Twilo do more to explain this Destiny plan more than any other explanation based on reasonable-logical grounds. Only those with an extreme FAITH would ever bank so much on one "wild and crazy" idea. And only people with extreme FAITH would commit so much money into such a scheme.

Which leads me to the important conclusion that the Destiny plan was privately funded, perhaps by the followers of the Church of the Granolith. But I doubt that public funds would have been used given the fact that the war seems to be a civil war across planets. Allies could be from different factions on different planets. It seems hard to imagine, given the sheer number of possible groups involved, that public funds would have been spent for such a seemingly illogical-impossible scheme.

The second point relates more to what tanchel said in the above post. I have often wondered why such a plan would be created in the first place and I too want to know how it was supposed to be orginally implemented.

I don't think that the crash was planned. In fact, I think that the crash created an obstacle for the Twilonese that they are still trying to recover. It has been suggested that the plan was in existance long before Zan, King of Twilo took leadership. And there is a lot of logic for this theory. First, I think that the plan, along with the biotechnology we've seen, (engineering and husks) has been around for a long time. I don't think that any of this was newly developed. The Destiny engineers must have known about the lifeform technology of the husks because the podsters were meant to hatch and mature after the Skins would have died. Given this idea, I wouldn't be surprised if another communication will be sent from Mommy. Once the Skins are gone, would it be safe to give the podsters more information about themselves and the granolith? Hopefully, someone will ask questions and led to some real answers about the podsters. (I can still feel my heart dropping into my stomach when I first watch Destiny last May as the Mommogram message spoke.)

Second from ARCC, I think there will come a time when Max and everyone else will give up playing turtle and hiding from the rest of the world. As long as they hide, they are letting others have power over them. To some degree, the podsters are players in a play because they let those around them control their responses. The only way the podsters can ever be free to live their intended lives is to give up their human fronts. Max feel subject to the Ghost because Max denied what he wanted to do to help. He did so because he was fearful of others around him. This is the only explanation I can think of to answer why he was haunted. Max failed to heal Nasedo as well, but he wasn't haunted by Nasedo. The Ghost saw that he had control over Max to some degree, and used it.

So let's see if I can tie this up into this thread nicely.... Max and all the podsters will eventually have to relinquish their human fronts to escape being players in this play. Until they do, they can be controlled. And the last thing a leader wants to be in, is in the position of being under someone else's control.

Strange ramblings as always....

Max recognising that there is a Higher Power is a very good sign. Leaders who think that they are It, tend to act that way. Witness Hitler, Stalin, Mao, etc. Leaders who believe that they are answerable to a higher Authority will likely be less autocratic, and more judicious in the use of their power. OK, some British royalty are bad examples; witness the sorry end of the Plantagenet line, whose errors the Irish are still suffering from. (Catholic vs. Protestant)

As for the Podsters relinquishing their "human fronts" - I dunno. You could just as easily argue that the NSB Planets are manipulating them by their alien sides; and they should relinquish that part of themselves to be free. Their existance itself is an alien lifeboat-analogue, so their official purpose in (this) life is to defeat their enemies and rescue Twilo. Only by giving that purpose up can they have the use for themselves of their lives.

Of course, K' var isn't going to let this happen. He will force them to defend themselves or die. Thus, the podsters will have to defeat him (and any other attackers) to save themselves. And so, like it or not, they will have to complete at least that part of The Plan.

The upshot is that they will have to use everything they have, to defend themselves by defeating their enemies. Then, and only then, can they think about what they'd like to do with their lives, instead of what others would like to do to them.

And congradulations on your new B!

"Listen very carefully, for I shall say this only once..."

The Planets NSB are setting themselves up for a huge disappointment. Let's say our Podsters actually follow the plan and save the homeworld(s). Saving them from what? K'var? A civil war? Or is it saving them FOR what? Courtney's Golden Age? What happens when they actually get Max back? Literally, NOW WHAT?

I'd like to think that once the Podsters saved the homefolk, they could be free to follow their own lives, but realistically that's not possible. I can easily envision Max doing his duty, only to have yet another responsibility handed to him. You can't just 'save' a planet. There are repercussion for years after a rebellion--the entire political and social structure has to be restored. The Planets have put EVERYTHING into getting Max back, but what happens after that?

To draw a parallel, think of the Star Wars universe. Whoohoo, the Emperor is dead. Now what? There are countless numbers of books devoted to the years after the Battle of Endor, little skirmishes here and there, political dramas within the New Republic. It wasn't like the leaders of the Rebellion could just hand over responsibility to someone else, and those leaders had spent so much time focusing on getting rid of the Empire that they almost couldn't figure out what to do afterwards....

tanchel (horribly embarrassed to have revealed her secret Star Wars obsession)

If they don't go home, how does that change the politics now, remember, they were sent here to protect us...there not like the Talons.

He believes in what Liz believes... And the miracle is Max accepting the fact that he should respect the forces that seemingly control their (podsters) lives. This seems so obvious to me now, but at the end when Max and Liz look up into the sky, it cemented (pun intended) their importance in the GRAND SCHEME of things.

...Which leads me to the important conclusion that the Destiny plan was privately funded, perhaps by the followers of the Church of the Granolith...

The second point relates more to what tanchel said in the above post. I have often wondered why such a plan would be created in the first place and I too want to know how it was supposed to be orginally implemented.

I don't think that the crash was planned. In fact, I think that the crash created an obstacle for the Twilonese that they are still trying to recover. It has been suggested that the plan was in existance long before Zan, King of Twilo took leadership. And there is a lot of logic for this theory. First, I think that the plan, along with the biotechnology we've seen, (engineering and husks) has been around for a long time. I don't think that any of this was newly developed. The Destiny engineers must have known about the lifeform technology of the husks because the podsters were meant to hatch and mature after the Skins would have died. Given this idea, I wouldn't be surprised if another communication will be sent from Mommy. Once the Skins are gone, would it be safe to give the podsters more information about themselves and the granolith? Hopefully, someone will ask questions and led to some real answers about the podsters. (I can still feel my heart dropping into my stomach when I first watch Destiny last May as the Mommogram message spoke.)

Second from ARCC, I think there will come a time when Max and everyone else will give up playing turtle and hiding from the rest of the world. As long as they hide, they are letting others have power over them. To some degree, the podsters are players in a play because they let those around them control their responses. The only way the podsters can ever be free to live their intended lives is to give up their human fronts. Max feel subject to the Ghost because Max denied what he wanted to do to help. He did so because he was fearful of others around him. This is the only explanation I can think of to answer why he was haunted. Max failed to heal Nasedo as well, but he wasn't haunted by Nasedo. The Ghost saw that he had control over Max to some degree, and used it.

The Church of the Granolith!! ROFL!

Seriously, thanks for this analysis, Qfanny. It finally makes some sense of this ep to me, which I have so far found the most jarring and "off" ep of Roswell I have seen. I'm perfectly willing to enjoy a stand-alone ep, but this one struck me as more of a leave-it-on-the bus. IMHO.

Anyway, you've given me something to like.

I agree that the crash was an unplanned disaster. I think it left the podsters alone and without guidance. I think it must have killed or scattered the most of the protectors, who would have guided the kids through the maze of lost memories.

I really do want to see more of the politics of the homeworld, as everyone's been discussing here. I like the idea that the series will be earth-centered (i.e. no starships), but still, all this wild stuff has been set in motion, the Destiny Plan and so forth, and we need to see it play out.

Regarding the Star Wars comparison, I agree that even if Max et al got back to Twilo, there would be a big WHAT NOW!!!! The podsters may be ready to conquer their enemies on Earth through fighting, but they have no skills in politics. They are expected to do an awful lot given the fact that they know nothing about HOME!

I am also a Star Wars fan! Although, I blame Kenner toys for that.

It does amaze me that our Podsters have had ample opportunity to ask Tess for her help, or get that metal book translated, or could have asked Nasedo some basic questions, but it didn't occur to any of them. They rather obviously just don't want to know, but they are forced into situations where information is everything! Michael in particular should be demanding some answers, what with this Michael-worshipping Skins faction.

Maybe on some level they just don't trust Tess enough yet, don't trust her not to 'contaminate' their memories with what she would like them to believe. I wish they'd move past that because otherwise they are unconsciously accepting whatever they are told.

tanchel

To draw a parallel, think of the Star Wars universe. Whoohoo, the Emperor is dead. Now what? There are countless numbers of books devoted to the years after the Battle of Endor, little skirmishes here and there, political dramas within the New Republic(...)

tanchel (horribly embarrassed to have revealed her secret Star Wars obsession)
Or, as on Dr. Who: when the Doctor is offered dominion of Earth by The Master, he declines. "Five billion snotty noses to wipe? Five billion cries of 'He hit me first'? No, thanks!" How much worse, to be stuck with an empire whose population seems helpless and witless without Max?

Not something I'd want, either. This may be why God created free will...

I don't think that the crash was planned. In fact, I think that the crash created an obstacle for the Twilonese that they are still trying to recover.

I think it's a fairly safe assumption that they didn't plan to crash. Fatal interstellar crashes are rarely intended. The loss of valuable spacegear can run up into the billions of TMUs (Twilonese Monetary Units).

Seriously, folks, the crash had to have been an emergency crash LANDING. Earth was surely the destination, but the plan must have been to sneak into the atmosphere undercover, in an area famous for meteorological disturbances thanks to the residual radioactivity from nuclear testing. But there's no doubt that Earth was intended all along to host the Royal Four.

From the News Desk of the Completely Unrelated, the Dodgers' new farm team, based in Las Vegas, is called "the 51ers" or something like that, as in Area 51. Their team logo is supposed to be the little green alien face.

I also think that there was an earlier ship which prepared the Granolyth Chamber, and installed The Granolyth and some other necessary equipment. The "mama bears" did not cart off The Granolyth from the crash site...
Which begs the question, where'd they go? Why didn't they stop to help?

It would relieve us all from trying to figure out the weird timeline and the possibility of an earlier mission....

Like I said, I'm not too committed to this idea--I think there probably *was* an earlier group. After all, somebody had to figure out that Earth was a (nominally) safe place to stow royal pods for a significant period of time.

tanchel

Oh, and tanchel, I also like the idea of the Granolith transporting itself--kind of like the 2001 monolith.

I sort of think that Max was pushing to intergrate two or more races (groups) and that was not accepted and violately rejected. I think that nicely parrallels why Max would be so intuned with Liz. Liz really being from a different race of people. Max may be subconsciously leading by example.

Now off to bed.

I sort of think that Max was pushing to intergrate two or more races (groups) and that was not accepted and violately rejected. I think that nicely parrallels why Max would be so intuned with Liz. Liz really being from a different race of people. Max may be subconsciously leading by example.

Now off to bed.

So Max could have been a civil rights leader for the different races. My science fiction mind is thinking of Brave New World's Alphas & Epsilons (which reminds me of Lonnie's Brave New World Comment).
And this also reminds me of my old fav theory that there are conflicting factions, one of which has a Destiny that involves mating with humans to put an end to the Twilonese race war, and the other faction of which has a Destiny like Tess' book--which does, after all, have a bit of a Hitlerian Master Race twist to it.

[/b][/QUOTE]So Max could have been a civil rights leader for the different races. My science fiction mind is thinking of Brave New World's Alphas & Epsilons (which reminds me of Lonnie's Brave New World Comment).
And this also reminds me of my old fav theory that there are conflicting factions, one of which has a Destiny that involves mating with humans to put an end to the Twilonese race war, and the other faction of which has a Destiny like Tess' book--which does, after all, have a bit of a Hitlerian Master Race twist to it. [/B][/QUOTE]
_______________________________________

But would mating with humans necessarily put an end to the race war? If the original war was over a forced integration of two (or more) different races, how does adding yet another race diffuse the situation? I agree that book and some things we've heard (Nasedo's disdain of humans, Whitaker's comments) indicate a 'master race' concept, but I would think that adding humans into the Twilonese mix would just exacerbate the problem. Or am I misunderstanding what you mean Shapeshifter?

tanchel

I sort of think that Max was pushing to intergrate two or more races (groups) and that was not accepted and violately rejected. I think that nicely parrallels why Max would be so intuned with Liz. Liz really being from a different race of people. Max may be subconsciously leading by example.

Now off to bed.

Thanks for thinking of my poor thread!

If "Max's kind doesn't rule any more", that suggests that it did rule. Was his "kind" slaveowners, and the revolution a slave rebellion? Is K' var a bad slavemaster, and Max a notably kind one? (Even to possibly freeing his slaves?) Remember, both our North and South were "white", mostly British. The ("black") slave population did very little fighting. From what little we know, it doesn't necesarily follow that King Max was an advocate of integration, let alone miscegenation... After all, he considers himself a native of Earth, and so is Liz.

For the record, different ethnic groups exist within races; and different races exist within the Human species. For instance, French, German, and Italian people are all "white"; Chinese, Korean, and Japanese are all "oriental". (Actually, I believe that the Chinese are divisible into more than one ethnic group.) Likewise, there are divisons among "black" people, but I'm even less knowlegable about them. This is simply taxonomy, not any value judgement.

Excellent points about races within different ethnic groups. I still think that if the war on Twilo is about race at all, it about the joining of two different groups. Max or King Zan pushed for it too fast, too quickly. People couldn't except it. What we know is that in MITC the others at the summit represent their worlds. THEIR. As if to suggest a seperation from Sero, Hannar, Kathana and Larek. I think the seperation was originally geographical. But over time and the natural development of technology, that gapped narrowed. Then what did people focus on to keep seperate. Where the five planets going through a "nationalist" movement. Even the extreme of nationalism, (think Third Reich) had racial hate tones on Earth. Is racism and nationalism linked? If so I was hoping this was something Twilo could overcome.

Perhaps King Zan's tasks, for the necessity of the world, was to take Twilo from the "Era of Good Feeling" into an industrial economy. The ante-bellum South was a civilization that appeared to be on the brink of a Golden Age. But in reality, the Southern economy was being crippled by slavery. In addition to be morally corrupt, slavery is also economically flawed.

Slavery was challenged by the technological advances of the 1700s and 1800s. Machinery and science made slavery obselete. With that in mind, the fact that there are five planets, economically tied to one another; the challege of keeping traditions, perhaps encouraging nationalism, I ask you, what technologic advances did the Twilo world make to force them out of their "Era of Good Feeling."

I hope this is ok stuff to ponder.

tanchel

Yeah, I think I wasn't quite clear (in my thinking as well as typing ). The part about the marrying with humans was meant to imply that this would put an end to the Royal Line(s). I'm thinking plural Royal Lines because the opposing groups would include those who wanted peace through intermarrying of the Elites (like in past European marriages of royalty) and those who wanted peace through genocide...hmmm "genocidal girlfriend"...not a pacifist's dream girl.

With that in mind, the fact that there are five planets, economically tied to one another; the challege of keeping traditions, perhaps encouraging nationalism, I ask you, what technologic advances did the Twilo world make to force them out of their "Era of Good Feeling."

I hope this is ok stuff to ponder.

[/B]

Oh I figure anything is ok to ponder....

I'm not sure I have an answer as to what forced them out of the Era of Good Feeling, but you did make me think (like always!) of a couple of other things.

Suddenly Courtney's Golden Era is completely in question. If the problem was Max forcing integration too soon, then perhaps all that the Michael-faction wanted was someone who wouldn't push. (I'm having a hard time suddenly seeing Michael as the cautious one.) But maybe they just wanted someone who would leave well-enough alone?

My second flash was about the Skin's lifeform technology. Let's say that technology was developed not ONLY because they needed those forms to survive on earth, but also because the Skins couldn't survive on some of the other planets either. Wouldn't you resent the heck out of that? Wouldn't you HATE that your entire species/race (whatever your term) was dependent on this husk thing? After all, Nasedo's faction can survive on earth just fine, and our Podsters are actually adapted quite well.

I mean, some groups take the very thing they hate and turn it into a point of pride. Perhaps the Skins decided to use their inability to adapt to other planets as a way of excluding everyone else and making it a racial question.

Now, exactly how needing a Husk to survive is a sign of superiority is open to all kinds of question, but nobody said racial/nationalistic arguments make sense....

tanchel

Some Thoughts....

The Granolith (that thing has begun to annoy me-we need solid answers!)...

Perhaps it is a symbol of political legitimacy. Whoever posseses it is seen as the legitmate leader of that planet. Rath said that there was "blood on the streets" and that the people hate Kivar's a**, so that could imply that Kivar is in fact a tyrannical ruler seeking to wipe out the Royal Four and posses the Granolith to finally gain the legitimacy he so obviously needs. With the Royal4 gone and the Granolith in his hands, the people of the the Podsters yet-unamed home planet, there would have no other governmental ideal/alternative (the Royal4) to look to in order to save Max's followers. They would be left without hope. Kivar's leadership and political possesion of that planet would be cemented. Also, that leads to the reason why Kivar's deal at the Summit stated that Max would "only be King in name" and all real "governmental power would remain in the hands of Kivar".

To everyone that's posted on this thread:

GREAT THOUGHTS! I have really enjoyed reading them!

quote:Originally posted by tanchel
If the problem was Max forcing integration too soon, then perhaps all that the Michael-faction wanted was someone who wouldn't push. (I'm having a hard time suddenly seeing Michael as the cautious one.) But maybe they just wanted someone who would leave well-enough alone?

I am always refering to things I've read elsewhere. But I know that someone (I believe Reggie or his sibling) may have thought that the personalities of the Podsters were intentionally reversed. If back before the fall of Twilo, Max was too reactive and Michael too laid back and cautious, that would better fit the our known history.

quote:Originally posted by tanchel
Let's say that technology was developed not ONLY because they needed those forms to survive on earth, but also because the Skins couldn't survive on some of the other planets either. Wouldn't you resent the heck out of that?
Yes, I could see this! That because they need this lifeform technology, their bodies may be described as more perfect, delicate, etc. And therefore, better than the coarse, rough, brash lifeforms that surround them. Talk about ego! What if the HUSKS were developed because of environmental pollution. I posted above how if the "race war" could be a result of underlying economic problems and the only way to overcome the problem is to force a radical change in the paradigm.

The Golden Age Courtney referred to could be the result of a sudden growth in technology. Usually there is a struggle to balance the ethics of medicine against the technology of medicine. Or another comparison would be keeping the nuclear weapons away from cave men. There has to be a balance between ethics and ability. I personally think the Twilonese are somewhat behind the game when it comes to ethics, but they are way ahead of the game when it comes to technology. Perhaps the Golden Age was the financial success of a certain widget but the moral corruption of a group... Oh, I ramble again.

Hi Julies
Nicholas basically said that the NM4 were the R4 because they had the granolith. That basically means that the granolith has somesort of power. Now what that is is still unknown.

Glad you found one of my favorite threads this season!

Some Thoughts....
The Granolith (that thing has begun to annoy me-we need solid answers!)...
Perhaps it is a symbol of political legitimacy. Whoever posseses it is seen as the legitmate leader of that planet. (...)

Why, thanks Jules12! Glad you like it. I thought there was so much politics behind the podsters, and there were threads for everything else (battling couples shippers, etc. ), that we needed a Politics thread.

As for The Granolyth, let's not forget that it is a device of great power, not just a ceremonial object of devotion. It's not just a crown, scepter or throne! It can be a weapon of almost unlimited destruction: FMax's whole universe was destroyed by him and Liz. Imagine if child-K' var were strangled in his crib: no revolution, no podsters, no Roswell! Yikes!
And no doubt K' var knows this...

For instance, Villandra (& Lonnie) seem to be hot-blooded and passionate, with little regard for others. This got V. killed. Isabel, by contrast, plays the "ice queen", with high regard for others: loyalty to Max, and insistance that others have a good time (whether they like it or not, as "the Christmas Nazi"). This may also be near the root of her failure to become involved with "Alex", a character which used to be on Roswell as a romantic interest for her.

Tess? Good question...

Originally posted by Julies12 quote:But, I tend to think that Tess has ulterior motives and alliances that Max was unaware of. Since no one seems to trust her now (even FMax)even though she seems to be on Max's side completely, that would go against the reverse-personality theory: innocent on the outside and cunning within. At this point it is difficult to speculate the true personality or her involvement back on her home planet, because we have so little information by which to asses her.
My thought on this is that Max is not attracted to Tess. Would it not be possible the reason why Max is not attracted to Tess is because both Max & Tess have different personalities? I really do think that reversed personalities is a strong possibility.

You are right that Tess is ambigious. We don't know really what she was about in proto form. All we know is that she was appartantly the BRIDE. This doesn't sound like she had a title of power, unless her proto identity is also more complicated. Who knew Isabel's proto self was Vilondra anyway? I would have never guessed it. Vilondra seems to be the total reverse of Isabel.

You're welcome!

Well... we do know a little about Tess. Suppose that her constant loyalty to Max is real, and that the current podsters' attitudes are in some way a reverse reaction to what happened in their previous life. King Max was too forward, which caused trouble, so our Max hides behind a tree... etc.

Perhaps King Max really did love his Bride? Not unreasonable, really. And that love and loyalty was NOT returned by Bride. This may have contributed to traumatic problems (maybe not even related to K' var's revolution). Now, Tess seeks to love and be loyal to Max; to make up for her previous attitude. Max doesn't love Tess now, because he did wrong by Bride by commanding her into an unwelcome marriage. They've both reversed, and now the unrequited love goes the other way.

I really do think our Tess loves Max.

And I don't necessarily think that Isabel is THAT different from Vilondra. Lonnie and Isabel both used a facade/mask in dealing with the people around them. I seriously doubt Lonnie ever let Rath and the others see her deepest feelings, and Isabel has difficulty in doing that too, and in early season one, was exceptionally superficial in her attitudes (clothes, hair, makeup).

I have always thought that Vilondra was probably much the same: raised as royalty, she would have had early training in keeping her cool and not letting things show. And in royal families, sibling loyalty and devotion are not always encouraged--after all, the women usually get married off to some far away prince and rarely, if ever, see their homes again. It sounded to me like Vilondra simply fell in love with the wrong guy and was so unused to dealing with strong emotions (because she was taught to repress them) that she was literally destroyed by them.

In contrast, Isabel has had opportunities to form strong connections with people and experience strong emotions. She might try Ice Princess, but she is slowly learning to rely on others (Alex, Maria, Liz) to be there for her. This might make all the difference.

My other problem with switching personalities is that IF the Twilos are THAT good with genetic engineering, you would think they could implant the memories of these former lives. Maybe a trigger word that would releash those memories, a little something to help out.

off to my birthday party!!!

tanchel

What ever the granolith is... It seems to be tied to the throne. It is the symbol of power.

QFanny....going to the LA Roswellian gathering?...see you there!

His (assumed) possession of the granolith wasn't enough to establish legitimacy. And while the participants were surprised that Kivar didn't have it, they didn't seem overly concerned. It was MAX they were after, and it was only his death that really would satisfy Kivar.

So my question is: what's the real power of the granolith? What does it mean to possess it? Would Kivar be able to finalize his power with it, although nobody was impressed with him when they thought he DID have it? It's not a deterrent to war because none of the others seemed very scared of it. And given the relatively nonchalant attitudes of the convention participants when they found out it was missing, I don't think it's religious. (Okay, I admit, I'm spoiled about the granolith, though what I read could have been a red herring.)

What does it mean that our Four have it? They can't even figure out what it is, much less turn it on... It's just something they have to protect, without knowing why.

And given that the next few episodes seem to be more about their human sides, I don't think we're getting answers about the big black whoshamadiggy anytime soon.

tanchel

So my question is: what's the real power of the granolith? What does it mean to possess it? (Okay, I admit, I'm spoiled about the granolith, though what I read could have been a red herring.)

Good points: It doesn't seem to do anything, except excite K' var. (It's an aphrodesiac! )
As for spoilers, they don't seem reliable. The promo for next week isn't anything like the TV Guide blurb. <sigh> Once more:

This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

I'm suddenly very fond of the Granolith as Aphrodisiac idea. I couldn't stop snickering for a good five minutes. Thank you Reggie--that's going to entertain me for days.

In other news, the real Roswell, NM is buried under a million inches of snow. So much for accuracy...

tanchel

Even if present Tess is so dedicated to Max, why doesn't even Future Max trust her still, after all those years? Tess obviously got fed up with constantly agreeing with Max, and garnering no respect from him while also being ignored, this obviously leading to her departure from Roswell....blah, blah,blah.

Tanchel and Reggie - The Granolith MUST have some sort of power that Kivar desperately wants. Also, the Skins in general seem to sense an urgency in getting it back. Could it be a fountain of youth or something like that? It's not just Kivar who wants it: CW Whitaker also wanted to get her hands on it, as did Nicholas (yeah, I know, he's Kivar's second) and what about Courtney? In Wipeout, when Michael wanted to know what he could to to prevent her from dying, she mentioned the Granolith. And, as we all remember, Max used it to time travel in EOTW. It does have real power; that's been mentioned several times in the show. And Max's people know this and that's why they sent it to earth, possibly for their future benefit (as we have seen in EOTW).

So maybe we should ask why the SKINS want it so badly? Larek and the others weren't too interested after all.

Oh hey! Here's an idea--you triggered it with the Courtney reference. At the time, I figured the Granolith would help revive Courtney's immature husk, but I bet that wasn't it all. I bet the reason the Skins want it so badly is that the Granolith would remove the necessity of the husk entirely! Whatever the Skins really are could survive on Earth without that bit of 'lifeform technology.' And if the husk is necessary on any of the other worlds, the Granolith could take care of that too.

Didn't the Mommagram make a vague reference to the Royal Four having to save Earth too, keep us from suffering the same fate, or was that just in the unedited script and never made it to the screen? At this point, the husks don't work more than 50 years--a big deterrent to invading our planet and enslaving us--but if the Granolith's power made those husks unnecessary, what would stop Kivar and his people from doing a little emigrating?

Anybody think this works as a theory? Does it tie in to anything we know thus far? How do we tie in the EOTW stuff about Tess?

tanchel

Here's a different idea about the granolith. The members of the round table seemed geniunely surprised at Nicholas' statement that the granolith was not on Twilo. Well, thinking about that scene again, their surprise is more like they are upset that they were lied too. I bet they were not surprised that the granolith had been moved, but they had been lied to by K'var. K'var must have been very insistant that it was under his control.

The war could all be about possession of the granolith. The different factions could have their own beliefs about where the granolith is, (much like how we theorize). Attacking Hanar's world could be because Kathana's leaders thought the granolith was there. Etc.

What bothers me about the round table is that all the world sent their representatives via possession of a human. Even Zan is reappearing in human form. K'var however, sends someone to represent him. Why didn't K'var do the possession thing himself? Is there a biological difference between him and the peoples of the other worlds? It seems to me that K'var's presense would have been better than Nicholas' if the goal was to convince the ROYAL 4 to return... Which further points to the fact that the whole summit was a lose/lose situation for Max. If Max had accepted, he would have returned with Tess and Lonnie. (Rath would have been left behind per Nicholas.) Max would have been executed. That would have left Lonnie and Tess on Twilo. These are the two people that remember their past lives... Does this seem strange to you? Would this point further to the possibility that Tess is Vilondra. Perhaps K'var wants both of them back (Tess + Lonnie = Vilondra) to completely reconstruct Vilondra.

With Max dead, then Destiny would fall on Micahael and Isabel, no doubt still looking for answers on where Max went too. Mommogram seemed pretty clear that 2nd in command meant exactly that, if something happened to Max, then it was Michael that would become, "fearless leader". So what was the point of the whole summit? To kill Max? To bring Tess and Lonnie back? Or to recover the granolith? And if Max had said yes, would Michael and Isabel be able to carry Destiny without the granolith - and Tess?

So what do you think?

1) Killing Max (the King)- Lonnie's "special kind of stupid" remark solidified this.

2) Taking possesion of the Granolith

Somehow, these two are inter-related, and they both represent a huge threat to Kivar's rule on Twilo. I don't think he simply wants to kill Max again JUST because he was the former king, it must have something to do with retaining permanent possesion of the Granolith. Why isn't Larek or any of the others interested in it either? There is a very special reason Kivar needs it and I think Courtney alluded to it in "Wipeout"
(Tachel-your idea seems really probable).

I, too, have thought that Vilondra's essence could have been accidentally put into Tess instead of Isabel: maybe that's why they're the only two (that we know of) who can remember ANYTHING from their past life. But what would that make Isabel? If there was a mix-up, who's essence did she get?

Here's a different idea about the granolith. The members of the round table seemed geniunely surprised at Nicholas' statement that the granolith was not on Twilo. Well, thinking about that scene again, their surprise is more like they are upset that they were lied too. I bet they were not surprised that the granolith had been moved, but they had been lied to by K'var. K'var must have been very insistant that it was under his control.

[/B]

Why would Kivar suddenly reveal that he doesn't possess the Granolith? I mean, why admit you've been lying? Did he think that the others would suddenly concentrate all their military efforts against Max to retrieve the Granolith? It's the only explanation I can figure, if possession is what everyone is after.

Re: the human possession issue. Maybe Kivar and the other Skins can't possess humans? They have their handy-dandy husk after all. It would point back to the idea that maybe the Skins simply can't exist in their natural state. The husk is the only thing they've got going. Makes you wonder what's so special/fragile about them that they need such complicated technology...

Okay, this whole switched essences idea...I just can't do it. I need everybody to be who they say/think they are. It's some kind of personal flaw, I know.

But geez, if the Twilos switched essences, but forgot the memories (or only gave the memories to a select few), what kind of botched, bizarre plan is THIS? Why give Tess memories, but she's the person nobody trusts? Why plant Lonnie in with the Dupes? (And I thought Rath could remember some things too, or was that my own delusion?) Why does only one person in each set get their former lives built in?

tanchel

tanchel

All very possible theories, Tanchel. I'm puzzles as to why some have memories and some don't...I'll think of some possibility and post them soon!

Julie

Re: the human possession issue.

Okay, this whole switched essences idea...I just can't do it.

Agreed. There's no visible reason for K' var to announce that he doesn't have The Granolyth, except that he wants the others to know. Suppose The Granolyth isn't supposed to be portable: Max may have "made enemies" by taking it from its proper location? Like moving The Wailing Wall; it's not just the stonework, it's the location too. And refusing to put it back where he got it compounded the offense.

Re: posession. Posession is expensive for one person, for twenty minutes. Sending a company of a hundred people for fifty years? Ouch. Better to have a more permanent solution, like the husks, which only needs one trip to deliver them, and (maybe) one to bring them and The Granolyth back. If they don't find it, then the second trip is unnecessary.

I can't buy the switched essences theory either. Everyone seems to be who they are supposed to be. The Dupes all seem to have some memories of their past; and Tess may be explained by "Harding" teaching her those memory techniques. Remember, Michael was able to "navigate" the map somehow, and Max got a flash of something (a BEM?) while they were advancing on Brody. Isabel is the odd one; but she may be suppressing her (nasty) alien side, including any odd memories.

I forgot about Michael "knowing" how to navigate the map. I also forgot about Max, Isabel, and Michael all knew the whirlwind symbol.

As far as switched personalities, it seems to be a theory that raises more questions than answers them. So let's just scrap it, or put it on the back burner.

The fact the the podsters have any memories at all indicates that whatever technology the Twilonese have, it is advance enough to store and transfer information from one brain to another. But maybe that should be saved for the Sci Fi threads.

What bothers me about the round table is that all the world sent their representatives via possession of a human. Even Zan is reappearing in human form. K'var however, sends someone to represent him. Why didn't K'var do the possession thing himself? Is there a biological difference between him and the peoples of the other worlds? It seems to me that K'var's presense would have been better than Nicholas' if the goal was to convince the ROYAL 4 to return... Which further points to the fact that the whole summit was a lose/lose situation for Max. If Max had accepted, he would have returned with Tess and Lonnie. (Rath would have been left behind per Nicholas.) Max would have been executed. That would have left Lonnie and Tess on Twilo. These are the two people that remember their past lives... Does this seem strange to you? Would this point further to the possibility that Tess is Vilondra. Perhaps K'var wants both of them back (Tess + Lonnie = Vilondra) to completely reconstruct Vilondra.

With Max dead, then Destiny would fall on Micahael and Isabel, no doubt still looking for answers on where Max went too. Mommogram seemed pretty clear that 2nd in command meant exactly that, if something happened to Max, then it was Michael that would become, "fearless leader". So what was the point of the whole summit? To kill Max? To bring Tess and Lonnie back? Or to recover the granolith? And if Max had said yes, would Michael and Isabel be able to carry Destiny without the granolith - and Tess?

So what do you think?

I like your speculations, Q, and have one of my own that at least suggests an answer to the question Why didn't Kivar possess a human himself? Because he's a big weasel and a coward! I somehow doubt he's got the courage to face any of the other planetary leaders directly, either at home or on earth. And of course his offer to Max/Zan was a crumby deal.

At this point I think Kivar's goals are
1) Nab granilith
2) Kill Zan for good
3) Nab Vilandra so he can put her head in his trophy case
4) Thwart Mom's Destiny plan any way he can and
5) Keep the other royal planets in subjugation or at least in uproar with each other so he can rule in the vacuum. That they are sick of the fighting spells the ultimate undoing of his plan.

I don't know about a biological difference between him and the others, but there is very definitely a political difference, as in If I can't be president we're not going to have a club.

Your discussion of who retains memory and who doesn't is thought-provoking, and deals I think with Mom's agenda. I really hope they'll get back to some of this soon.

Liz

Liz

Ah! The old divide & conquer trick, eh? Hm. If true, then he has not succeded yet. The planets seem to be at war with each other; if K' var ruled all, then there would be none of that. That they are sick of fighting suggests that they may all agree to let him rule, if only to have peace!

I like your To-Do list for K' var. I'm not sure about his cowardice, though: he may just want plausable denyability if Nikolas fails. "Skins? Kidnapping? Murder? Gee, I don't know anything about that. It must have been Nikolas's doing..." And never having shown himself, noone can prove different.

You're right. I hope they start filling in the details for a while, and slow down the additional outlines until they catch up a little.

We've already discussed the possiblity of Royals marrying distant relatives (I think that was here.) If Tess was K'var's daughter, then K'var is someone powerful in the Royal Court. Tess would be one way for K'var to have legitimacy to the throne. An offspring between proto-Max and proto-Tess would give K'var a claim through bloodlines. Also, if he mananged to seduce proto-Isabel (Vilondra) to his bedside, he manages to again, claim a part of the throne through bloodlines/ties.

It sounds as if K'var is working the system every way he can to legitimize his claim to rule. Which suggests, that perhaps K'var is not legitimate. He's ties to the Royal court could be false ones.

Interesting idea StarBox!

OTOH, I'm aware that sometimes scenes are cut because the info in them is invalid or decided against. They may have decided that Tess is not supposed to be Michael's sister. In which case, she could be kin to K' var; allied, adversary, or unknowing.

On the third hand, I'm leery of the argument that "Tess is evil, so she should be connected to the Evil Aliens somehow." It's putting the cart before the horse. So is, "Tess seems good, but nothing is what it seems, so she's evil."

I do think that (in Wipe-Out), Tess was proud to be, and acknowleged as, The Bride; especially since noone else seems to have been giving her credit for it. "I am... SOMEBODY!"

On the third hand, I'm leery of the argument that "Tess is evil, so she should be connected to the Evil Aliens somehow."
[/B]

Actually - what I am saying with this scenario is that Tess is NOT evil. She is an innocent, well-inentioned pawn in a bigger power struggle. As she begins to think for herself and choose her own destiny - rather than the one that was force-fed to her - she will begin to "come into her own" - we saw the beginings of this in ARCC.

I tend to believe that she actually IS evil (so much more fun that way) - but this scenario for is a way to make her a good character - one with a shot at personal growth and redemption.
It also explains alot of the inconsistencies in her character - to name a few:
*why does she have such extremely different powers from the podsters
*why didnt Lonnie and Rath just kill her (or at least hide her where Max couldnt find her
(picture them entering her mind - seeing she is Khivars daughter and saying "Oh %$#& we better get out of here")
*why didnt CW just kill her
*why do the skins (Ma and Pa Whittaker, the UFL league guy, Nikolas) appear to have some sort of respect for her - even though she seems NOT to be working for them?

Anyway - just a theory. I am not a Tess hater - I actually have a song that I listen to that is my "Tess song" and it is very positive (Emmy Lou Harris) I dont feel like her character needs to be evil - I just want it to make SENSE.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I do think that (in Wipe-Out), Tess was proud to be, and acknowleged as, The Bride...Three hands, Reggie?
Anyway, I thought I'd throw out the possibility of Tess being Kvar's sister.
And my interpretations of Tess's emphasis on agreeing that she is the bride in Wipe Out include: a)she's covering for Liz (who she knows is changed) and b) jealousy of Liz

I've never thought even the Skins necessarily *respected* Tess. They did/do have very strong reactions to her; I thought the League guy in particular seemed to loathe her, for reasons nobody knew. I always thought that perhaps in her former life, she was supposed to follow the Skins' agenda and didn't. Maybe she actually fell in love with Max and ignored her (father? brother?) leader Kivar's intentions for her. A political marriage, that on her part, turned emotional, and that skewed Kivar's plan all to hell. Otherwise, why kill his own daughter (to go with that theory) unless she betrayed him in some way?

Anyway, all good thoughts from everyone. I really hope we actually get to see Kivar this season....

tanchel

If Isabel could had been there, maybe he would have said her....

But, there could be reason for Tess to be, somehow, Kivar's daughter. It could have been arranged to create peace between the rebel faction and the Royalty of Twilo. We do not know who killed proto-Tess, she could have committed suicide upon her husband's death, or died from some other cause at a later or earlier time. This does by no way conclude that she was killed the same way that proto-Michael was (by Nicholas) or the rest.

Also, why doesn't anyone seem to respect Tess? The most Nicholas said to her was "killed anyone today?", which in itself could either be a reference to one event (the fire in WO) or many in the past. We have yet to see exactly what that reference encompasses. I said this earlier, but why didn't FMax trust her? The only thing he seemed to respect her (by that I mean value) was her powers and how they could have ensured their survival in the future.

If the marriage had been political in nature and Tess was simply a bargaining chip, then there probably wasn't a lot of respect accorded her anyway. For that matter, we haven't seen any indication that Isabel had real respect in her former life either. She's portrayed as flighty, more interested in 'jewels before studies,' and a traitor. Women don't seem to have had much power on the whole, in that society.

So if the society didn't place much value in the women (other than breeding stock) AND Tess was the daughter of Kivar with the marriage being a last-ditch effort to stave off war, I don't see her getting a whole lot of respect from MAx and Co.

tanchel

I agree - I dont think there is any basis for the claim that Tess is Michaels sister - it is one of the many things that was cut for a reason (if it ever was actually in a script and wasnt one of the MANY bad spoilers we have gotten) - the reason being that the writers decided to go in a different direction.
An example of this is the scenario that was original to EOTW that had Tess turn evil and kill Michael and Isabel. ALL of the spoiler sources gave us this scenario on EOTW - so I am assuming that there was truth behind it at one point - but obviously the writers decided to go in another direction (and I am very glad they did).

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I think that democratic rule would have had to been necessary in order to have fair representation across the "V" or NSB planets. I am thinking of the Boston Tea Party, where the colonist through out the boxes of tea in to the harbor because of "no taxation without representation." This falls nicely into the scenerio of Twilo being the head planet, and all the other planet being colonies. Could the other colonies be exerting independence. British colonies have become independant: We are one of them. India is another. Such a war would be considered a Civil War to the host country, but a rebellion to the colonist.

More thoughts from under my migrine. (I think they are the cause of them.)

More and more I'm beginning to think oligarchy. Any takers?

tanchel

I do wonder though if some constraints exist for those families though, like Qfanny suggested. The Magna Carta gave *some* kind of assurances to the commoners that the ruling elite couldn't just run around with ultimate power. Maybe Max was trying to bring in a form of representative government, weakening the oligarchy by default.

tanchel

Thanks for the responses! I think this is a very interesting subject. tanchel, your post above is what I was thinking in the back of my head. ProtoMax may have been restructing the government. Or perhaps, the commoners were trying to restructure government and another faction came in and seized the throne. (I am thinking of the Russian revolution here.)

I agree that K'var's rule is tyrnachial (sorry, my spelling is bad tonight). But I would say that as far as a nuts and bolts study between K'var's rule and ProtoMax's rule, the governments function the same. It's just the ruler (K'var) that is bad.

I also think that there was some sort of Magna Charter ruling that would prevent the ruling families from overrunning the commoners. This would be necessary for the interest of the commonwealth. Unless ProtoMax's government never had complaints, which I find the most unlikely theory of them all.

Larek implied at the Summit that proto-Max was trying to make things better for his planet. Perhaps proto-Max became so involved with uniting the different factions that it allowed Kivar to pull of a sneak attack. But I seem to think that Kivar was not the leader of a group that was fed up with mistreatment (although that could have been a small factor), but the leader of one that would not accept the good that proto-Max was working towards. Essentially, Kivar doesn't seem like the 'diversity is good' type, but one who only accepts his own kind as fit to rule. It seems like Twilo went from a (possible) constitutional monarchy under proto-Max to a more facist, dictatorial type of rule with Kivar (the whole 'blood on the streets' thing supports this). These are two very distinct types of govrnment, with the constitutional monarchy being much more stable, while a fascist or dictatorial regime being less stable and focused on a charasmatic leader.

First, there's the kidnapper. Grant? I believe so. I do not think he has moved against the pod squad in this episode, though. More, I think he's been testing them. Notice that, although equipped with a sniper's weapon, at close range, and with the element of surprise, he cleanly misses the first shot. He should have hit something! My guess is, he was just seeing if Max could stop bullets; and if Max had any offensive potential. Remember, Michael does! Also, he's tested Isabel's psychic ability. Remember, these aren't dreamwalks; this is a message Isabel is receiving unbidden from someone.

Second, is the state "Internal Affairs" office which is looking into "Hubble's death". I believed this at first, but it quickly seemed to be a pretext for an investigation more like the FBI's Special Unit would undertake. Dan(?) seemed to know too much about Max and Isabel, even though they weren't properly part of the Hubble record he's supposed to be investigating. And he wants to know more...

There is also a plot construction problem growing. I call this the "doing it the hard way" problem. Remember in Raiders of the Lost Ark, where the martial arts guy confronted Indie... and Indie shot him? This was funny, because we all expected Indie to martial arts fight with the guy, even though Indie had a gun. Such a fight would have been "doing it the hard way".

In Roswell, Sheriff Valenti has been doing it the hard way with respect to both Isabel and Max. Isabel is very easily explained: she's a bit psychic. She does not want it publicized, due to all the crazies around Roswell. S.V. is keeping it quiet, respecting her right of privacy. Note that her protective father is a lawyer, and suggest that "Dan" might also keep his mouth shut or face an invasion of privacy lawsuit of his own.

Hubble (and Max) can also be explained. Hubble's a known UFO nut. He held some alien responsible for his wife's death. Hubble saw Max working at the Museum, and somehow got the idea that Max was an alien, the one which killed his wife. He got Max to go off in a car with him, and tried to kill Max. S.V., acting on a tip from Isabel, found them in time to save Max. He had to kill Hubble to save Max. Does S.V. think Max is an alien? No, of course not. Does he look like one? Besides, Hubble's wife died long before Max was born; so he has an alibi. And Max can not be identified even the least little bit as an alien: imagine what the UFO nuts would do. Same as with Isabel: the invasion of privacy lawsuit would be very expensive, especially since Max is a minor. It was better to keep his name out of the record, and "Dan" can surely see that. Case closed, right?

I think these past months have made them terribly defensive (for good reason), but if they always look like they've got something to hide, sooner or later, they'll be caught.

tanchel

ultimatedreamer, there's not a word I would change here. You've really made sense of the granilith to me. It's the thing that made possible its own transportation to earth. Obviously the home planet has still got some technological marvels up its sleeve--the whole possession/abduction thing is amazing--but without the grail-i-lith nothing quite holds together back home.

I like your theory because it ties so many things together--the pod chamber, the "golden age" Courtney referred to, the "husk problem," which the granilith might have solved if the Skins had gotten to it, the need to communicate via human instruments, the different means of surviving in earth's atmosphere that you enumerated, and probably many others I can't even think of right now. And yes, there is every indication that the Skins were an "elite squad."

Possibly this awesome technology was newly discovered at the time things went to the on the homeworld. It may have been as overwhelming to the homies as the situation in general seems to be to Max. A means to hitherto incomprehensible power in the hands of a people that already had interstellar travel, which is technologically unfeasible to us right now and by all accounts for some time to come. The granilith made a powerful species a thousand, maybe even a million times more powerful. Seeing as how absolute power corrupts absolutely, they were in for big trouble amongst themselves.

Possibly there was genetic manipulation before, but the granilith increased those powers exponentially also. Maybe making possible the hybrid technology, an adaptation to earth's hostile environment so successful that there's a constant risk of the royal four "going native!"

Anyway, thanks for your ideas. This is a great thread, isn't it? There's a new "Kivar Appreciation" thread as well , which is a bit lighter in tone, but some of the same points are being discussed.

Fan

Interesting comments on the sniper/assassin. I think you're right, that the sniper was testing to see if Max had any defensive potential. KK said something of a similiar nature about this scene on LSS's thread.

As far as the "hide in plain site" theory and "not doing it the hard way," the hard way for me has always been a lot more interesting. But I do agree, in this situation, Valenti could have created a better cover using the elements around him. But remember, Dan and Valenti have a history together. They have known each other for a while. Valenti may have reasons for not going this route that we are not privy to yet.

Reggie, going back to politics, I hope you don't mind, do you suppose that the Twilo leaders are warriors? The government stays the same, but the person that leads changes with the turn of arms. It would seem that the "son" of such a war lord would inherit the treasure of the father. It could be that treasure is not Twilo, but the granolith itself. Hard to say, we know so little.

BTW-- I'm looking forward to reading your summary statement with thread #2.

BTW-- I'm looking forward to reading your summary statement with thread #2.

I agree- we know so little. Having the leadership of Twilo run like the Klingons' is, is workable. Keep the bureaucrats who run things as civil servants, but the leadership is selected by Darwin. OK, but why does King Max still have followers fighting in the streets over 50 years later? They know the rules: winner take all, so why are they backing the (appearantly) loosing side, on behalf of someone else (Max)? We know so little of Twilo...

I'm sufficiently confused by what's going on on Earth. Summary statement? Ummm... is Zero busy?

<waving imaginary pompoms>

tanchel

Yes! Same thing could be said about the Valenti's. Although Kyle seems to be a risk. He wants to talk about what happened. It's a good thing he has no friends that are independant of this Roswell mess. (Or if he does, we don't know it.)

Their instinct to hide might be something that is the total opposite of what their lives were like on Twilo. Royals would have very public lives. Unless there was no free press. That is a serious possiblity. One of the stipulations in the United States Constitution is freedom of the press. I think the reason is because the press was viewed as a check in the check and balance system of the three branches. That, and the American ideal that everyone has an independant voice in a democracy.

So what do you think? Did Twilo have a free press? Whether they did or didn't, what would that led you to think about their political structure?

Based on the assumption that Twilo was at best a monarchy (during proto-Max's time), and King Max's supposed tight rule (determining the fate of entire armies at the flip of a coin), I would tend to think that Twilo did not have freedom of the press. Maybe the revolution took place because there was little freedom to express one's opinion; overall supression of privacy. Even though freedom of the press is a part of the Bill of Rights, think of the negative impact it has had on the lives of celebrities and politicians (i.e. being constantly followed, photographed, speculated about). Also, think of how an outrageously violent or scandalous act makes for more a prominent headline than a positive one. Maybe the Royals had a lot to hide, so they did not allow the press to say or print whatever it wanted.

On the other hand, every modern revolution, beginning with the Dutch revolt in the 16th century, has had its basis in the press. This allows for circulation of ideas that will rally people to the revolutionary's ideas.

What do you think?

Thanks for posting your thoughts! I agree with your sentiment that Twilo did not have Freedom of the Press. However, I do not think that the "monarchy at best" answer is the reason. I think that Freedom of Press, although a more modern consequence of government, does not just happen exclusively in democracies. I think it's entirely possible that freedom of press could exist in a monarchy.

First, it would take a huge effort to monitor journalist. In a technological world, which Twilo must be, it would be impossible to stop or control someone else's opinions.

Second, if there was no freedom of press, and their was a system in place to monitor media, it would also led me to conclude that there was a secret police.

So, I am wondering what is coloring my interpretation of Roswell to suggest that Twilo did not have freedom of press. It could be that my American upbringing hinders my mind from exploring other possibilites. (I think your post above touch on this quite nicely.) Is there something else in the canon that suggests the homeworld did not have freedom of press?

Perhaps it was Zan's decision to allow freedom of press. Larek said that Zan was moving to fast. This would allow opposing viewpoints to come forward. K'var could have stepped in with new ideas. (However, I don't think of K'var as an intellectual leader. He seems to be thug.)

Great ideas, I look forward to reading some more on this.