PS.

Now that I have uploaded the old profiles, it seems the UBB code functions differently from the old message board. Particularly, two commands cannot be combined. To get, for example, underlined bold. It's a little puzzling how the commands override each other. It seems bold always overrides underlining, no matter how the tags are situated.

For the moment, I'll leave things here warts and all, and email someone to see if the UBB code function is still being worked on. The new boards function very well already, but some features still seem to be not fully implemented. I'd hate to strip out a lot of coding, and then find out it would have worked anyway in a day or two.

In the meantime, I apologize for appearances. Also, just because the profiles are here, doesn't mean the discussion has to focus on them. They are only for reference, since many people find them interesting.

Profiling Nasedo may be an exercise in futility. But it helps explain the environment in which Tess has been raised to this point.

The possible futility arises in the fact that it isn't clear whether Nasedo has emotions that change easily; or whether he has no emotions and is just faking it, and the fakery sometimes slips. The way he goes from smiling with Liz, to snapping at her to leave the broken statue alone, back to smiling as if the mood hadn't been broken, can be analyzed either way. Moreover, he seems to enjoy being Max. This raises the possibility that he can experience emotions, but has none of his own, whether by nature, or because of being captured after the 1947 crash and tortured and experimented on. (When he tells Michael emotions are a weakness, that is much like what humans do when they say "Don't let your emotions get the best of you," or "Don't get carried away.")

Ed Harding/Nasedo sometimes shows signs of obsessive-compulsive personality disorder (OCPD). OCPD is characterized by a rigid, conformist, and perfectionistic style of behavior. These people have a tight, restrictive range of affective expression. Compulsive personalities are “workaholic” types who are unable to relax. But they may waste time ruminating over things rather than accomplishing real work. The description as “compulsive” is most due to his fastidious neatness, “workaholic” regime, and affective expression. These characteristics, which are frequently positives, become a disorder when they interfere with the subject’s functioning in society. Sometimes, the subject can locate the cause of his or her distress, but often it is third-parties that really notice and point it out. As is the case with many mental disorders, the sufferer has difficulty perceiving what is wrong with his or her own thought processes.

In some situations where his behavior exceeds normal bounds, perhaps instead of OCPD, Nasedo should be classified as an extremist. Being a sort of emotional wasteland, he is in a sense a blank slate to be written upon. Tactile and sensorial stimuli become excessive desires, whether it is eating of food, such as a mound of potatoes or fried chicken, or appreciation of art.

Nasedo will do what ever it takes to survive and to ensure the survival of the alien/hybrid children. Having lost three of them early in their development was bad enough for his perfectionistic view, but to lose them again would be inconceivable. His lack of morals or regard for human life is more than likely seated in his lack of emotion, anger over being imprisoned, tortured, and tested, etc. Duty, anger and fear will always be motivators in Nasedo actions.

Riso label: Reformer
Palmer label: Perfectionist
Key traits (healthy and average function): Principled, orderly, perfectionistic, and self-righteous (many of these imply morals, which are negated by his lack thereof)
Gift: Discernment
Unconscious drive: Anger
Approximate DSM-IV correlates (unhealthy): Compulsive and depressive

Riso label: Enthusiast
Palmer label: Epicure
Key traits (healthy and average function): Enthusiastic, accomplished, uninhibited and excessive
Gift: Optimism (This is negated by being trapped by alien hunters, from whom he since escaped)
Unconscious drive: Gluttony
Approximate DSM-IV correlates (unhealthy): Manic-depressive, histrionic

TESS PROFILE

This profile is a compilation of ideas and thoughts created by Karst and DocPaul. All profiles are subject to change as new thoughts, observations, and implications are added, but Tess’s is even more tentative, in that we have an especially limited view of her to-date, and developing her character was not a goal of the series this past season. While the creators attempted to portray the other characters as 3-dimensional, especially the main characters, Tess so far has mostly been used as a motivator to impel action in others. As the next thirteen episodes reveal more facets into Tess’s personality, this profile will change.

This is an unusual profile, since much of it is derived indirectly from surmises about what it would be like to grow up with Nasedo as a parent. Normally, direct observation of the subject would be used to create a profile, and parental information would only be background information to help flesh out or confirm observations, or possibly suggest areas to be examined.

I. Background Profile

Tess Harding, apparent Caucasian female of approximate age of 17, soon to be junior in high school. Was raised in a single-parent household with no association with known relatives. Resides in Roswell, NM with her supposed father, Ed Harding. Ed Harding is of course, Nasedo, an alien shapeshifter that was in the crash of 1947.

Past Medical Records: Unavailable. No known drug allergies. High intolerance to alcohol is assumed for all aliens.

School Records: Good record of attendance, many past schools due to father’s high mobility. A grade point average of 3.4, gives an impression of good academic background and highly involved in school life. Involvement in organized extra-curricular activity is unknown.

Parents and place of origin: Unknown. No known living relations. (Possibly Michael Guerin, but has yet to be established.)

Ethnic background: Human/Alien hybrid, engineered.

Arrest record: Unknown.

Associated factors: Found alone in the "pod chamber" at the age of 6, unable to communicate, status of development undetermined at time. First contact was with Nasedo at early impressionable years.

II. Evaluation:

Development:
Nasedo will have anticipated all of Tess’s basic needs. His main goal is her survival and the retrieval of the other children. On hatching from the pod, Tess would have been lacking certain skills and abilities. We do know, despite the discrepancies in the versions of events we receive, that the alien/hybrids could all walk and had other motor skills more or less appropriate to a 6-year old human child at the time they hatched. But reportedly, they could not speak at that time, and communicated via some form of telepathy. It is unclear at this time how the alien/hybrids developed speech, or at what pace.

History of Strict and Clinical/Unemotional Upbringing:
Tess’s development would not really have been neglected by Nasedo in any real way. But her social development was stunted at a level of neglect. The most important feature Tess lacks in early development protocol is a bonding with a parent or adult figure. She has learned a dependence on Nasedo, but her emotional needs remained unfulfilled. In the famous experiment done with monkeys, the baby monkey with no contact with another creature grew up with severe emotional and intellectual impairments. The one with a wire and carpet "mother" was badly impaired, but not completely unable to function like the first, since it was at least able to pretend to itself that it had a mother, and act out one side of some of the typical mother/child monkey behavior. Nevertheless, without an appropriate adult response, the baby monkey with the wire and carpet "mother" did not learn all appropriate behaviors. Since Tess's care provider lacks true human emotions, all her human contact would have to come from outside the home.

Nasedo would have been a strict parent since mistakes in their lives could have meant capture and death. The clinical and strictness of upbringing can be seen in Tess’s reaction to the breaking of the statue. The way she gasps and looks immediately at Nasedo was somewhat like the way abused children with parents who "go off" suddenly in unpredictable manners intently observe the abusive parent's behavior, to know when to take protective action. Very little in the house suggests a happy environment for child growth and tactile excitement. I doubt that this was a Sesame Street home with birthday parties, sleepovers, and dance lessons included.

Feelings of Isolation and Abandonment:
Tess would have been taught about her destiny early in life, and would have been informed of the missing other children. The lack of a conventional upbringing and of human emotion within the household will not alleviate Tess’s abandonment issues. Her situation will not be as severe as Michael’s, due to the lack of abuse, but her feelings of isolation and unworthiness will remain. Defensive mechanism will over-compensate for these issues, and her personality will be full of false bravo, arrogance, and a need to be noticed.

Responsive Fear and Paranoid Tendencies:
From early ages Tess will have learned of the dangers of interacting with humans. Max, Isabel and Michael were born with the instinct that hiding was necessary for survival, so Tess probably has it as well. Whatever potential she might have had to build real ties to human children have been destroyed by the constant moves, and the need to avoid close relationships in order to guarantee secrecy and security. Plus, it seems Nasedo has not pretended to her that things were safe. It would be foolish for him to. Humans to her vary from things to ignore to grave dangers, and her views about them will always consist of weariness and reserve. There will always be the fear of being found out, turned in, and captured. These feelings will build walls of coldness in the interactions with others. Tess will have hard times acting on issues of altruism. All her actions will be self-motivated. Despite originating as a reaction specifically against humans, Tess will behave in general along these lines even with the other podsters, since she has no other set of behavior to use.

History of Classical Conditioning:
Since probably from the moment Tess was first born, she was given the understanding that her Destiny was Max. From the box of pictures that Isabel picked up in the house, and that Liz looked into later, it is clear that Tess has been conditioned to focus on Max, more than Michael or Isabel. For Tess, the Destiny mission and her reunion with Max would be a longed-for escape. It would mean the humans had not won, and that there was hope of moving forward to a better future. Max is Tess's dream of moving on from constant fear and evasion, to a life of taking control of her own life and fulfilling a destiny far greater than the scary, mundane reality that she knew.

Nasedo was unlikely to teach little Tess things such as "If you laugh at someone, of course they'll get mad at you." What is much more likely, given their danger and his background (alien, either without human emotions, or without emotions at all) would be an explanation such as "If you laugh at people, they might get angry, and we don't need to attract that attention or get involved." Or "If you agree with people, they're less likely to question you or single you out for an attack," or something similar. The most elementary self-protection is to lie low and blend in (as Max tries so hard to). From Nasedo's perspective, playing on human emotions is a necessary survival technique. (He seemed quite good with the sheriff when talking about the camera - maybe he was putting extra effort into it, considering whom he was talking to.) A good protector would make a point of teaching the protected person how to protect herself. Tess knows to go to the pod chamber if they are separated, and how to revive Nasedo if necessary. How to manipulate humans - especially how to lull them and get their cooperation - would be another survival technique for when he's not around to control the situation.

Nasedo would teach Tess proper table manners and other things. More than emotions, they are things that can be consciously learned, and they often don't need understanding.

Defensive Mechanisms of Dependency:
The fact that Nasedo never left Tess alone for very long - even when she was older - has had an odd double effect on her. Tess's needs, at least the physical ones, seem to have received great attention. "Ed Harding" has some pretty fancy possessions in that house. But Tess seems also to have absorbed the lesson that she is in danger even when Nasedo almost always is with her - implying that she is in even greater without him. Tess’s fear of being alone will force her to cling to her protectors. From the way she reacts at the beginning of Destiny to his loss, losing him seems to be the ultimate disaster. She will try to manipulate the situation into areas that will comfort her, or make her feel safe. Tess will give up control of her life to another because she lacks the confidence to believe in her own ability to protect herself, alone. There is the question of whether Max could fully substitute, even if she had her way with him. Tess's fantasy honeymoon might be Max alone with her, with Nasedo within call. She will always look to the leader - Max - for answers. She will have a compulsive need to ingratiate herself to him not only because of conditioning, but because she will perceive that next to him is the safest place to be.

Morals:
Since morals are taught from generation to generation, either by parents, community or church, it is safe to assume that no real deep morals have been instituted in Tess’s life, save those that have a benefit to her well being.

Tess seems to have internalized something of Nasedo's emotional patterns (or act). Like Nasedo with Liz and the statue fragments, she snaps at Isabel to leave the pictures alone. But she is more aware of the need to maintain the mood. She does act awkward when she notices what she has done, while Nasedo seems oblivious with Liz. Perhaps she has learned something from experience at school with human children. Or it might be Tess’s essentially human nature asserting itself - having had her feelings aroused, they cannot actually subside as quickly as Nasedo’s do, or seem to.

III. Personality traits indicative of background and behavior

Narcissistic Personality

Grandiosity and a preoccupation with fantasies about power, beauty, and so forth A need for constant attention and admirationMarkedly negative or empty feelings towards the criticisms of others Disturbed interpersonal relationships, exemplified by:
[list=a]
feelings of entitlement; taking advantage of others; alternations between over-idealization and devaluation of others; and inability to empathize with the needs of others.

Dependent, Demanding Personality

Insatiable desires and appetites
Active-passivity model where patient is trapped in a parent-child relationship. This is evident with Tess’’s anger at being left alone by Nasedo. This pulls into her abandonment issues
Transference tendencies such that patient will transfer needs and demands to another or others in an overtaxing manner to the point of creating genuine anger and frustration in the target(s) of the transference. (In more concrete terms, Tess will transfer her dysfunctional relationship with Nasedo to Max, her Destiny, who is likely to have an extreme reaction to being treated as the replacement Nasedo.)

Histrionic Personality

Shallowness, dramatic behavior, and exaggerated affect.
Tendency to be vain, self-centered, and dependent.
Craves novelty and excitement.
Often initially appears charming and behaves seductively; however, once a relationship is established, quickly becomes
either extremely controlling or extremely dependent, causing disruption in interpersonal relationships.

Basic Personality typing is as follows:

Riso label: Motivator
Palmer label: Performer
Key traits (healthy and average function): Adaptable, ambitious, image-conscious, and arrogant
Gift: Efficacy
Unconscious drive: Self-deceit
Approximate DSM-IV correlates (unhealthy): Narcissistic

IV. Impressions

Tess has certainly been indoctrinated in her role in the Destiny plan. The rest of the group would have more than likely had the same training to overcome their human tendencies to follow their hearts rather than their Destiny if Nasedo had reached them in time. Without this constant clinical conditioning/brainwashing it is questionable whether any of the original trio can be trained away from their more human natures.

There has always been a question of why it was so important for the podsters to be mated again. Perhaps it was important to pair them from birth so they wouldn’t give in to the natural tendencies that where inherent in the human DNA, the heart. Our belief is that the pod children were destined for each other not as a love match, or maybe even to breed. Rather, they were meant to be a sort of mutual-support group to keep them isolated from humans, and isolated from human emotions. They were to provide all the basic needs of each other, with Nasedo conditioning them to their duty early in life. It is doubtful Max would have fallen in love with Liz and risked exposure to save her, if he had been indoctrinated with the Destiny mission. But accidents happen and plans go awry. It will be interesting to see what takes precedence, destiny or free will.

With Nasedo gone, Tess can’t afford to lose Max. She has a deep-seated fear of isolation and helplessness. Her conditioning to love Max will bind her to him and act as an anchor to weigh him down. Shaking off Tess will be near impossible unless she can be unconditioned or retrained.

Expect Tess to try to be the comfort for Max, Michael and Isabel because she feels that she belongs with them. It is obvious that Tess understands how to interact socially with her peers, including the other podsters and humans. It is unclear whether Tess can form a mutually satisfying and supportive emotional tie with anyone. The cry of Destiny will always fall from her lips, but Destiny will not be the motivator that holds the others to her: friendship will.

Tess will always push the humans away. She will always see them as competition for her rightful place, her birth right in the lives of the other alien/hybrid children. Tess will manipulate and insulate herself between the groups in order to bring control to herself. Tess needs to understand the ties that bind the original three and their human friends if she wishes to become part of their group. Discounting or ignoring the circle of friends established by her pod mates will not endear her to anyone.

Tess does have an essentially human emotional make-up, despite its lack of full development, and it may start to assert itself under the encouragement and example of Max, Isabel and Michael. She herself may not realize what is motivating her, whether Kyle or someone else draws her attention.

What Tess needs most in her life is a stable, loving environment where she can become in touch with her own humanness. All the raging emotions, fears and anxieties need to be conquered before she can meet her own destiny head on.

One word descriptor for Tess: Entitlement

SO. . . .Comments? As mentioned earlier, all profiles are open to discussion, and Tess is especially problematic. We intend these profiles more to open discussion rather than close it.

DocPaul, Karst

I. Background Profile

Liz Parker is a 16/17-year-old Caucasian female living in Roswell, NM. Liz works part-time after school at family diner, CrashDown as a waitress. She is an only child with both parents still married and living. She has an interest in science. Extra-curricular activities are unknown.

Past Medical Records: Unavailable. No known drug allergies.

School Records: Excellent attendance with no truancies. Honor student with aptitude in science.

Parents and place of origin: Place of origin is Earth. Four generations of family living in Roswell. Parents, Jeff and Nancy Parker are living.

Ethnic background: Human.

Arrest record: 1 count minor in possession of alcohol, 1 count trespassing. Charges dropped.

Associated factors:

Liz Parker is the only child of demanding parents who are very self-sufficient. She has lived in the same small town all her life, and works in the family restaurant. She hopes that her own intelligence and ambition will help remove her from an otherwise uneventful and insignificant life. Liz is a controlling personality who feels claustrophobic in a small town where her every action is viewed and observed. She stated herself, "everyone knows her, and she can't even get a haircut without someone giving her his or her opinion about it." Liz lives her life under glass. Controlling her environment means a way to build walls and take back some of the privacy lost simply by being who she is, freeing her to direct her own destiny.

Her inter-relationships are loyal and beneficial to self-imaging. Liz will have only a few very close confidants in her life. She will have the need to reserve as much of herself as necessary since being in the public’s eye compromises so much of her life.

The continuity of Liz's character hasn't changed much even from the Pilot. The circumstances have changed, but not the character. Liz was the girl next door in a small town looking at a very predictable life, with a predictable boyfriend, and a predictable career. Then suddenly in the flash of a gun, that changes. Suddenly, Liz Parker is born into a world with unknowns, unpredictable, and unstable. This world is an edgy place for a person who is control-ridden, note-card -making, color-coding. She continues to be motivated by her need to regain control and balance.

Max has injected uncertainty into her life, and is her breakout from her normal, predictable life. Here she has secrets, she has privacy, she has a role beyond being an honor student and good daughter. Her destiny until the Pilot had been pretty well worked out, but in a split second, her destiny became her own, and she became the navigator of her own life. Give back control? That is an impossibility for this personality.

II. Evaluation
Development:

Erikson’s development stage of Identity vs. Role Diffusion is found in the ages of 11-20. The major task for the child is to separate from the family as the sole emotional support system and to begin to gain support from peers. During this stage the adolescents develop a sense of their own uniqueness while learning to sustain loyalties to peers. This step is preparatory to mating.

Children who are the single child in a household tend to be self-oriented and self-motivated. They are used to being adored and considered perfect. They are confident enough to make fun of people around them, and even enough to openly dislike people. They will always view the world in terms of "I" and "me." These tendencies come from being indulged by doting parents who help to build the child’s self-esteem.

Liz has a sense of kindness, affection, and honor towards those who depend on and believe in her. Alex and Maria were the main support group and relationships in Liz’s life before Max entered it. They are the ones who express what type of person and friend Liz was: "If I was asked who I would trust the most, it would have been you." (Alex) "All I know is my best friend, who I would trust more than anyone else, is lying to me." (Maria) We know she was a good friend, honorable, and trustworthy.

But events have spun her life upside down and out of control, creating a need to compartmentalize and intellectualize this new reality. She is pre-occupied with herself and her role in Max’s life. Her need to protect Max, his secret and the aliens in general raises conflicts with her old life, as we see most clearly with Alex and Maria, and with her parents in Into the Woods and Sexual Healing. In the case of Alex and Maria, Liz was able to resolve the conflicts between past and present by ultimately bringing them into her new circle of friends. But given her intense need to separate herself from and the roles and expectations created for her, by her parents especially, there will not be an easy reconciliation of her past as the perfect daughter and the present as the daughter with secrets and a need for privacy. Rather, the need to protect Max and the other aliens will only intensify her insistence on having her privacy, both for the sake of Max and the others, and as a justification to herself for the conflict with her parents.

Obsession With the Unique:

Liz Parker is obsessed. She has an underlying need to feel special and to live an above-the-ordinary life. Her background did not provide much of an opportunity to rise above the mundane. Max Evans and his secrets gave her a sense of belonging and uniqueness beyond what was destined for her as Liz Parker, small town girl: as she writes in her journal, "Even I, the smallest of small town girls, have secrets." That is what Liz holds on to, what Max gives her - that electrical impulse that adds mystery and unpredictability to an otherwise un-noteworthy life. Liz Parker is like an adrenaline junky. The feeling of being essential and special in Max Evans’ eyes are a self-feeding addiction. Liz Parker will risk certain death to feel this way forever. She would risk the world to remain in this elevated position struggling against the unknown for control and order. This behavior is self-centered, self-serving, petty, and so very human. Very few people rise above the need to be considered unique.

Feelings of Guilt as Motivator:

Once Max Evans confided his secrets to Liz, it became apparent how dangerous Max’s situation had become by exposing himself. Suddenly ten years of secrecy and self-preservation were lost to a moment of saving a person who was essentially still unknown. Despite the motivations of Max, the outcome was the loss of his protective aloofness. Once Max made it clear that his very survival rested in Liz’s hands - that her silence was important for him to regain some of his reserve and protection - at that moment, Liz Parker appointed herself as a protector of the aliens. Her guilt for being the primary cause of their exposure shifts her actions and motivations towards the goal of guiding their lives back into a state of normalcy.

Left-Brain Modalities Associated with Scientific Background:

The personality traits associated with persons of scientific backgrounds are complementary to leadership personalities. They tend to need to organize and catalog information, and methods of deductive reasoning are used to plan and initiate action. In one episode Liz was promoted to manager status at the CrashDown and she had charts and color-coded assignments. Her need to observe and record events in a journal is as predictable as her collecting empirical data to substantiate her growing belief that Max was not normal, which she did by taking a squamous cell sample from Max’s cheek. Proof and validation are great motivators in Liz’s life. She will use empirical evidence of her flashes from Max as validation of her increased importance and position in the aliens’ lives.

Defensive Mechanisms of Isolation and Intellectualization:

Liz’s leader and scientist traits come together in her need to understand, intellectualize and ultimately control her environment, including those around her. Liz, like Max, puts herself into the role of being responsible for everyone. But basically, all the people in her life need to fit into specific roles. Max’s role was to be exclusively hers, to be under her protection, and to give her importance. Liz said it herself, "that when Max saved her he pulled a small town girl with a small life into a bigger more important life." She only has a few personal friends because Liz Parker will always need a sense of isolation and secrets to keep her world small enough for her to control.

The events of the last year have serves to elevate and change Liz Parker’s self-image. Though the uniqueness of Max’s alien background elevates Liz Parker from her ordinary existence, her basic control tendencies still demand that she reconcile the fears and situations of the unknown into workable patterns. Max’s need to feel normal and human helps give Liz a sense of order and purpose, a way for her to conceive a role for herself in the unknown world of aliens. It is hardly a coincidence that Liz begins to keep a journal after discovering Max’s secret. The color-coding researcher that is Liz Parker needs a record of observations just like any other scientist to ensure that no data is lost, and that she is able to discern any patterns that emerge.

Responsive Fear and Self-Deceit Tendencies:

Once Liz becomes aware of Max and the podsters, and their alien origins, she is repeatedly faced with unknown factors. These may be scary on their own (such as Nasedo, who is known to have committed murder) or they may be scary to Liz particularly because she cannot analyze them, catalogue them, and ultimately control them (Michael’s mysterious illness in The Balance, for example). Liz can deal with the sheriff and alien-hunters from the FBI, but something unknown that cannot be easily identified scares her into almost paralysis."

Liz faces down her fears to the point that in Into the Woods, there is a voice-over by Liz about how Max should realize "that he is not that different from us at all. Maybe then we’d have a chance." Though she has not forgotten anything she knew about Max’s origins, the unknowns are slipping away from her attention, and she is forming her mental image of Max into something with more emphasis on the human rather than the alien. It is suggestive that in Blind Date, Max says "What is so great about normal?" while he is intoxicated, and actually plays with his powers; but Liz’s reaction to his antics is to say, "This will never be normal." Liz needs to control the degree to which Max is alien, and to be certain that she knows exactly how alien Max is, so that she can understand him and establish within her own mind her position and control of the situation. Max's alien status is a source of interest and intrique, that almost impossible puzzle that holds the attention of an enthusiastic investigator. At the same time, Max fascinates Liz, so that she wants to identify herself with him. When Max "reversed the direction" in the pilot, he soothed her fears about monstrous aliens bent on hurting her, and the idealization of her which she saw was such a powerful attraction that Liz would later say in a voice-over that "Max Evans has put a force on me." By the end of the pilot, she has taken on the role of guardian and leader of the podsters, and formulates a plan to lead the sheriff away from Max. The visions she and Max see in Sexual Healing and the finding of the orb convince her that they have a special tie, and that she has taken on some of his otherwordliness.

Liz’s self-deceit starts to crumble on various fronts in Crazy and Tess, Lies and Videotape. The FBI had not been so easily defeated, and blowing Topolsky’s cover had just resulted in more surveillance, more secretive than before. Max could have visions from other sources than just her. There was an actual alien in town, a living link to the podster’s alien home planet - something potentially more useful in their search for origins than a mysterious, unusable artifact or unreadable writing on a cave wall, and a force that might attract Max’s allegiance away from her over all. As the Destiny Cycle continues, Max who was once human with a touch of alieness was fast losing his humanside and his unknown alienside was emerging. This new Max was an unknown quality that was becoming further removed from the Max that Liz Parker knew.

The events of Max to the Max, The White Room, and Destiny put a conclusive end to her self-deceit. Although she had slipped into the role of leader and protector in pilot, and had continued it up to Into the Woods, or even later, she was powerless in the Destiny Cycle. She could not control Tess or Nasedo. She could not stop the FBI from taking Max though she was there in the funhouse with him, so that her greatest fear - Max in the hands of the alien hunters - became reality before her eyes, and for the first time since the pilot she was powerless. Finally, she could go with Max to the pod chamber at the end of Destiny, but she had no role in any of the events. She doesn’t even have an automatic right to be there - she stays because Max wants her there.

But it isn’t just her and Max and wonderful visions of space and each other’s lives. Max, Michael and Isabel share a bond that lets them accept Tess as member of their group regardless of Liz’s feelings for her. Moreover, the evil alien who kidnapped her and was carrying a dead body in the trunk of his car is now an accepted ally. Liz had felt special because she had believed she was special to Max, but now she realizes that she had deceived herself as to her role in his life. Max has room in his life for her, but his life will never revolve around her the way she had made hers revolve around him. Max can love her and shoot pool and listen to music with her, and generally do all the things human lovers would do. But in the end, he cannot change what he is, and there is another side to him that she may never fully understand, and a greater destiny for him that she can share at best only as an interloper.

Morals:

Liz Parker was raised with human morals that curtail what actions are right and which are morally wrong. Yet, from the moment that Max Evans told her that his life was in her hands, Liz Parker’s life was changed forever. In Liz Parker’s obsession with Max Evans and in her self-appointed position as their protector she often compromises morals. Lying, stealing, breaking and entering, and many other actions will be ignored for the expedience of fulfilling a self-created destiny. She would lie, cheat, and steal to protect them from harm - putting not only herself, but her most trusted friends at risk to achieve this destiny. From the moment that Liz Parker knew about the aliens, she forced her way into their lives using her leadership personality to order and control the situation into a sense of balance and normalcy.

III. Personality Traits Indicative of Background and Behavior

A. Leadership Personality
Self-absorbed with needs to control
Internalizes responsibility and order with almost compulsive need to compartmentalize
Markedly aggressive response dealing with feelings due to the criticisms of others
Disturbed interpersonal relationships, exemplified by:
[list=a]Feelings of control or aggression when control is lost;
Dictatorial behavior towards others under guise of paternalistic protection;
Alternations between self-conflict and self-deceit depending on whatever modality is necessary to assure success;
Inability to release responsibility with alternating guilt associated with failure;
Almost obsessive emotional attachment to person or persons within their self-image regime

B. Independent, Demanding Personality
Needs to feel in central to the situation, a main actor in the conflict
Active-aggressive model necessary to retain control and order, with a need to be always correct
Transference tendencies such that patient will transfer feeling of guilt and inadequacy from situations that are beyond her control. Patient will blame herself because she always sees herself as in control and responsible.

C. Motivator Personality
Tend to be ego-centric with image of self and ego as ambitious
Tend to be highly adaptive to situations, but need to find ways to control new circumstance
Crave situations beyond the mundane, and sense of an important life.
Often initially appear charming and reserved with hidden depths of self-motivation and arrogance.

D. Basic Personality typing is as follows:

Riso label: Leader
Palmer label: Boss
Key traits (healthy and average function): Self-confident, decisive, dominating and confrontational
Gift: Strength
Unconscious drive: Lust (excess)
Approximate DSM-IV correlates (unhealthy): Antisocial

Riso label: Motivator
Palmer label: Performer
Key traits (healthy and average function): Adaptable, ambitious, image-conscious and arrogant
Gift: Efficacy
Unconscious drive: Self-deceit
Approximate DSM-IV correlates (unhealthy): Narcissistic

IV. Impressions

The entire destiny thing has wrecked Liz's compartmentalized life. She is no longer the 'choice' mate for Max. Despite her knowing of his alien genetics, how different he is from her really came into play both in The Balance and Destiny. It is not the difference that is the problem, but rather, the uncertainty of her role in his life, and the lack of control that comes with this uncertainty and inability to label things. This is what drives Liz away. She loses the ability to intellectualize her place in Max’s life.

When the realization of the aliens’ destiny hit, Liz felt her lack of alienness, her inability to ever really belong to the podsters’ group. Once again she became a small town girl. But her predicament is that she is not exactly where she started in the pilot. Now, it isn’t just a matter of dreaming of a bigger life in a more exciting, but still human city. Now she has known aliens with wonderful powers and seen flights among the stars. Liz had a glimpse of a life even more special and exciting than she had ever imagined when she dreamed of being head of a research department at Harvard. Isolation and intellectualization may be the only defense mechanisms that Liz has left. She will have to isolate herself from the group where she will never truly belong, and then intellectualize her reasons for leaving Max to his destiny, despite his claims that she is the One.

Liz needs to go back to Max. But she needs to realize that Max's destiny is his own - that the choices are not hers to make for him, but his own; and also that the consequences of his choices are his to bear, not hers. Lately, her life has been Max, only Max, and the sustaining of Max, and this obsession has caused her life to spiral out of control. Liz has lost herself, only to find ultimately that there are places in Max’s life she cannot go, and dangers she cannot protect him from. Liz needs to re-establish her own identity and control over her own life. If she cannot be his lover, then for her own sake, she needs to learn how to be his friend. She will grow by facing her fears of not knowing and not being able to help, rather than by continuing to avoid them.

The problems that people are seeing in the consistencies of Liz Parker's character are not bad writing or plot devices, so much as the evolution of the story. In the Pilot, Liz was stronger, more in control, directed person. But from the moment she was 'saved', her life has spiraled out of control into the unknown, and she has developed a sense of belonging with new friends and old friends through a secret/a trust that must not be broken. The movement of Liz's character back and forth between indecisive to strong and controlled is her attempt to establish her control over an unpredictable future, a future that she wants. Liz is a leader. She will always ensure she is within the circle and center of action. Her responses are a leader’s responses - self-centered, dictatorial, controlling, and concerned. All action is directed from her or towards her. She is the ego-center of action. Her actions at times will be unpopular and harsh, but necessary. Duty, honor, and responsibility will be the hallmark of her decisions, because these things come from the heart.

Liz is a willow in a storm. She is strong and resilient. She will bend with a crisis, but she will never break. It will wound and dishearten, but the basic fibers of her character will rebound.

Liz will never settle into a corner and be broken into pieces. She would risk everything for one moment of feeling alive, then a lifetime of feeling nothing. She is a warrior. Her spirit can falter, but her resolve will mend. Her wants and desire will call her to action, but her basic honesty will make her choose sacrifices for greater good over her own selfish needs. Her human concerns and wants will war within her, but ultimately she will choose a course that is necessary regardless of the cost to self. Self-worth and esteem are judged by the quality of those who love her. Liz Parker would die a thousand deaths than leave one friend behind, to sacrifice one individual.

She will stand upon a principle and fight for its purpose, but she will bend to reason. Judgments are fast and furious with actions being very decisive, thought out, planned, and almost cold. She will place herself into situations that are not her concern and dictatorially force her opinions on others who would prefer to remain unburdened, if she believes that she is doing what is best. Emotions will always play beneath the surface. Still waters run deep, as do insecurities. Happiness and joy, the easier of emotions to feel, will always rise to the top, but fear and pain will be the battlement scars that wound years after the making. Love and approval will always cause her to wrap herself up into her own world, self-satisfied and content, but reality can always find a way to shake her back into the waking world.

Her dominant motivations will make her choose paths perhaps unpopular and hard, but her purpose is expedience. The fastest, hardest resolution to a crisis is the one she will think of first, throwing her into the fray without thought of personal injury. These actions will cause those who love her to run after her, to protect her from herself.

Liz Parker cannot live life on a sideline. She has to be in the action, part of it. All failures and all mistakes will be the burden she carries as part of responsibility. Nosy Parker, needs to know everything because without all the facts, she feels at a loss, immobilized from fear of making the wrong decision. How I see Liz can be viewed in one scene, after Max was taken and Liz returned to the CrashDown. Maria and Alex went to Isabel and Michael to comfort them, and left her with the crushing reality of being alone, of the loss of Max. Then suddenly, almost in a flash, Liz become taller, stronger, more authoritative, she turns to Tess and asks, "where is Nacedo?" That is the Liz Parker I see. Resilient.

But Liz cannot prevent the disastrous events of White Room, despite being in the funhouse with Max and the FBI agents in Max to the Max. Since it was ultimately the exposure caused by Max’s altruistic actions of saving her that led to his capture and torture, Liz’s sense of guilt will be even more drastic. Liz will need time to come to grips with her feelings of inadequacy. She will be haunted by thoughts of watching Max and the others die because of her being too small, too insignificant to stop it. Especially, she will have over-riding feelings of guilt for leaving Max in a time of need. Despite what anyone may tell her, she will not be able to avoid feeling that if she had been a little faster, a little more clever, and a little less human she could have saved him.

Ever see the movie, Legends of the Fall? Liz is like Tristan (Brad Pitt). All those around him supported aspects in him they considered weak and fragile, and needing of protection. In the end, he was the most resilient. The best line of the movie was, "Tristan was the rock that those who loved him best beat themselves upon."

That is Liz Parker.

Perhaps I don't see Liz Parker the way others do, and yes my personal thoughts are still derived from clinical aspects, but I can't divorce my own inclinations. I always felt that certain aspects of Liz Parker's and even Max Evans’ personalities were what made them alive. It was never the cotton candy, look into my eye, love affair, but rather the tough resolve and brilliant fortitude that I liked best.

One-word Descriptor: Resilient

DocPaul, Karst

[Edited by Karst on 08-23-2000 at 06:36 AM]

although the first show threw some clothing curves at us the characters stayed pretty consistent just more extremely entrenched in there roles. Like izz some are saying she was cruel to alex but i see her "no movie line" as her protective traits coming out after destiny she knows there under threat she has more important worries than playing teen girlfriend.

Max wants to lay low and not exert leadership thinking normality will allay liz`s fears allowing a reconcillation which is on par with last year he grows as a leader when michael or outside forces push him ie:skins
Why does max think liz is attracted to normal when max growing up normal liz could have cared less its only when he became alien max that he was on liz`s radar screen at all romantic or otherwise??.

michael has gone back to stonewall guy who
has a cause to justify his self-imposed isolation and his needling of max.

alex and maria are last years characters again alex trying to get izz attention and maria chipping at stonewall michael.

liz is staying away but its unclear if the writers just restarted the max chase liz will they wont they dance complete with cow-eyed moments OR (turn away dreamers) the IMHO more interesting than a rehash scenario of liz over the summer truly putting max romantically behind her and moving on and how the would affect the group.

tess seems tighter with the podsters also max claims the reached an understanding so your analysis could be right she could flying under max`s radar or maybe the show dropped the forced destiny pairings altogether as M/I rejected it out of hand. I hope not it added an interesting nature/nurture aspect to the aliens.
I think the loss of nasedo will force all the podsters to grow:max will realize the danger is real and have to lead..Izz will become even more aggressive...michael will increase his isolation and prod max with jibes and reckless behavior to assume control...tess will be affected most i see her as getting closer to max for protection and comfort which could be max`s weaknes and how she gets under his radar.
Generally,nasedo`s death will drive the podsters after recriminations closer together as a group and alienate the humans (pun intended) for there own safety.

Just imppressions comments all welcome
BW

Thanks for all your hard work! This is truly enjoyable reading.

I am INTJ myself! I love the Myers Briggs profile.... I am probably the only one as we tend to be on the "rare" side.

My office desk has taken a life of its own and is staggering under the weight of my patients charts. Afraid the real world is intruding on my free time. A few more twenty hour days and I'll be caught up.

The Max profile is next to appear, but in all honesty, he sit waiting my attention like the rest of the world. Maybe by this weekend I can reformat and send on to Karst for editing. Alex is hovering in my buffers waiting me to finish one last section, but I must admit I am waiting for the new season to kick in geer for inspiration.

I'll be back soon, maybe. I hope. Okay, yes definitely sooner, or later.

Doc

Faith

I think he neatly summarized Max's problem. But then why does he argue so much? I suspect it is his own frustation and fear. I get the feeling he isn't really rebelling, so much as hoping someone (particularly Max) would somehow save the day. The hope is a little irrational, and conflicts with Michael's own statement about how powerless Max really is (at least at that point). But unconscious hopes aren't always realistic.

I think he neatly summarized Max's problem. But then why does he argue so much? I suspect it is his own frustation and fear. I get the feeling he isn't really rebelling, so much as hoping someone (particularly Max) would somehow save the day. The hope is a little irrational, and conflicts with Michael's own statement about how powerless Max really is (at least at that point). But unconscious hopes aren't always realistic.

That was my favorite part. Michael talking about how maybe he belongs in jail because he killed someone and then the thing about Max not knowing any more than he did.

I'm sorry, but I was hoping they would deal with that more – the (imagine this) psychological part, especially with Max. I was glad they had Max seeing a therapist (psychologist?) unfortunately it won't help much since Max can't tell him everything.

The new season has given us valuable information, although it is too soon to change anything.

Tess is tutoring Michael in using his powers- something he is badly in need of. Perhaps a way for a friendship to start? I think both need friends, and both are reluctant to seek friendship from humans. We might learn a great deal more about Tess especially if we get to see deeper into this relationship.

Isabel is rather cold to Alex, particularly from my own Stargazer perspective, but she isn't mean. She doesn't promise a relationship she isn't ready for. She wants to remain friends. She could have been a bit more subtle checking out Grant, though. I wouldn't be surprised if she already suspects him. After the surprise Tess gave her, I doubt Isabel will trust another stranger very easily. (I might be wrong- Grant could be who he says he is. But I don't think so.)

I think he neatly summarized Max's problem. But then why does he argue so much? I suspect it is his own frustation and fear. I get the feeling he isn't really rebelling, so much as hoping someone (particularly Max) would somehow save the day. The hope is a little irrational, and conflicts with Michael's own statement about how powerless Max really is (at least at that point). But unconscious hopes aren't always realistic.

I think Michael is hoping that someone will come in and save the day... guide them and tell them what to do. He used to pin that hope on finding Nasedo... but when that was a bust, he now seems to pin that hope on Max... even though he does realize that Max is as "in the dark" as he is.
What I liked about this scene was Michael's candor with Valenti. He seems to have bonded with him. The scene when they come to arrest him, he gets out of bed grumbling about how he knew that Valenti was there to give him grief... almost like a son expecting a chewing out by dad for his carelessness. Maybe I'm reading too much into this exchange, but I'm so hoping that Valenti will become, if not a true father figure, at least one human adult that Michael will trust.

Does anyone want to chat a bit about Max until the Max profile? Perhaps provide a bit of inspiration. I'm talked out about Liz and Tess meself, although you might want to add to your Tess profile as more of her character is revealed.

He seems more and more like a control freak. And becoming a pathological one at that. I remeber someone saying earlier that he did not seem that violent when I think he has been quite violent. Even in S & B, when he throws the papers across the room he reminds me of people who make loud violent noises and you know the secretly want you to be as nervous as them.

Perhaps we might go back to our discussion of the affects of torture for those who might have missed it, and how it might affect owr King. How do you think it has been represented so far?

Cheerio,

SM

He seems more and more like a control freak. And becoming a pathological one at that. I remeber someone saying earlier that he did not seem that violent when I think he has been quite violent. Even in S & B, when he throws the papers across the room he reminds me of people who make loud violent noises and you know the secretly want you to be as nervous as them.

Hello Ms. Muffin!

Max and Michael are perfectly good topics of conversation. The Max profile is coming along, but Doc and I work on them at odd moments, so firm "publishing" dates are hard to give.

Actually, Max's violence is enough of a problem I'd call it dysfunctional behavior, not just a personality trait. The reason is that the violence never solves the root problem. It's like someone who gets mad at the boss, and then comes home and hits the kids because they were "too loud." Maybe they were loud - or maybe not - but the underlying mechanism is venting frustration at the boss, but without solving the problem, or at least moving towards a solution.

Knocking over the bathroom stall or throwing the papers in S&B solves nothing. Shoving Michael around or hitting him also solves nothing, because the underlying disagreement is still there - Michael wants to do something, and what Max does is mostly pretend they are safe if they "act normal." Even with the FBI circling, that's the best he can manage.

Max actually borders on delusional. It's true he knows very little, but the podsters and friends can check people out (such as Topolsky) and sometimes notice certain people following them. Some reconnaisance would be possible, but Max won't even do that (and at least one Max/Michael fight focused on that idea, though the word "reconnaisance" is my own).

Max's outbursts don't really solve anything because Michael doesn't buy Max's approach, and in fact Michael sometimes evaluates situations better than Max. It's because of Michael's insistance that he found the key and they went to the dome, which is where Isabel found the pendant Liz took to the reservation. Michael wanted to contact Nasedo, and his instincts there turned out to be more on the mark than Max's. So Max's violence is an effort to force Michael to go along with Max's approach, despite knowing that his own instincts are fairly good.

Michael won't give in, and hiding from reality is pretty dysfunctional behavior, because it solves nothing. Max needs to face reality rather than continue trying to deny it, and to stop using violence to keep Michael from trying to get him from waking up. The functional approach to Michael would be for Max to recognize he is sometimes right. Actually, so far, he probably has been more realistic about their situation than Max. Max's violence towards Michael is just another way he tries to avoid reality - making the voice of reality shut up - which is why it is dysfunctional.

Does Max really care about Michael?

A relationship is a two way street and it seems Michael has tried to make it work. He's tried to take responsibility for himself and tried to play under Max's rules. In what you wrote Karst, I see how Max's actions are hurtful to Michael. I think Max does care about Michael, but it's conditional. There are limits there and I wonder how far they can be stretched.

Did the therapist scene work for you? What would have happened had Max really dump the issue in the therapists lap?

What is the real issue between Max and Michael?

My first time really posting on this thread-- please go easy on me!

Qfanny, I know a lot of INTJs. I'm an ENFP. Love that darn test.

MUCH LUV...OTR31
...but I can't hide...

It's almost like Max is filling a vacuum. When Hank stops kicking Michael around Max takes on the job. Not to say he is THAT bad, but I would say his actions cause reason for caution.

Think about what he has been through, and then think if you could handle it like he has. Imagine having a volitile and unpredictable friend in on a secret that could mean you very lives. Something tells me that Max and Michael have had fights that we haven't seen portrayed on the show.

I forgive Max for his actions because I have forgiven much much worse in my life. I guess how you see him would depend on your upbringing. Hitting is not a big deal where I grew up. Guys's would brag to each other about the scars left on there bodies via fights with their dads. That is why it bothered me that Michael's black eye was the first mark his father had left. It didn't really ring true to me. Perhaps he was lying, I dunno.

SM

I have paused on the Max profile since his character has new added complexities. As Sweet Ms. Muffin has mentioned, Max should be having so fall-out or post traumatic distress syndrome as a result of THe White Room, but moreso, the major alterations in his life due to Destiny.

I have noticed a very distinct two camps dividing on the issue of the Max-Michael relationship. There are those that pretty much excuses Max and sees Michael as the impetus of his anger. In some sense that is very true, but in others it is not. Michael and Max are both very much alpha males with certain aspects of their personalities that do not alway mesh or complement each other.

Michael is impulsive and brash. He needs to know the answers, actively pursue the knowledge. For Michael, a victim of abuse, being lost in the dark, a victim to the unknown is once again that same feeling of being helpless and vulnerable. Michael truly does love Max as he loves Isabel. Disappointment makes his demeanor become angry or even cold, but he will come through despite it. Maybe not exactly at the moment asked, but in the long run.

Michael has fits of honestly. When I say this, I mean that Michael has been the more honest of most characters in regard to his feeling or even how he can express them. At times of insight or even just flashes of intense discussion, Michael tells us who he is. "I trusted you more than I trusted myself." and to Valenti, "I been so pissed at Max for not leading, but he doesn't know anymore than the rest of us. We are all alone in the dark. We don't know anything. I'm afraid that I won't be strong enough." Michael stick is that being vulnerable, and not pursuing information leaves them in a vicarious position. He stands to lose everything he has, and all those that he values and loves. For Michael, the fear lives more in his throat. It's that lump he feels everyday.

Max approaches from another direction. Max can't live with feeling out of control. When he feels the fear "in his throat" like Michael, he tends to act out of control, or at least away from the natural tendencies he has to protect, to hide, to be inconspicuous.

I can't believe that a young man that's instincts have been honed by ten years of silence and hiding, throws away not only his own life, but the life of his only real family to save a girl that he has only watch from afar and barely spoken to, despite being lab partners. It was the fear lodged in his throat that broke his control, his usual reserve and took him to the point to save Liz, and in a sense, changed everything. I know that the claims that he so loved Liz, etc.. But, I try to stay away from these discussion because we all understand the underlying emotion and I don't think that we are in dispute that Max's love for Liz was something he carried inside for a long time.

I am saying that it wasn't so much the love that motivated his actions to save her, but the fear that she would die, cease to be that was powerful enough to break his natural instincts to stay hidden and safe. Of course, his fears stemmed from the potential of losing the one object that he admired and wanted the most, if he had been normal. In this instant, Max reacted very much like Michael does in times of fear; he acted impulsively. Which, seeing that it saved a life, it is hard to argue the point, but it also effected more lives along the way.

Roswell, to me, was never the simple on the surface, boy and girl are meant to be do everything to stay together. It was a story about cause and effect. The cause being saving Liz Parker, the effect is the story of Roswell. In second season, the cause if the activation of the orbs, the effect is the continuing story of Roswell.

Max loves Michael as much as Michael loves him. His fear of losing Michael in the Balance, his anguish when he was afraid that Michael was leaving during ID. Max needs all the parts of life in front of him, safe and in place. To say that Michael is one of the biggest parts of his life would not be wrong. Sure, Michael pushes Max's button. How could he not? Everything Michael does is in his pursuit of the Truth which is impulsive, fast, and now. Max has more the approach with caution, "we will see" philosophy of inaction. If the two were to approach a red button in the desert, Max would get on his stomach to investigate the button, question it's purpose, think about what the consequences of pushing the button, whereas Michael would just push it. The difference is the inherent caution of a leader, meaning Max. And the impulsive nature of a soldier with his finger on the trigger, shoot now, ask questions later, meaning Michael. They are coming from different mentalities, but the path they journey is the same.

Max's inactions in being the leader is in a sense the argument between the two. Michael isn't jealous of Max's position. He looks to Max naturally to be the leader. In Destiny, when Max asked who the leader was, both Isabel and Michael naturally turned his way. The problem isn't who should rule, or who should lead, but rather getting "the man who would be King" to wake up and lead. Nasedo said it best, "Be careful that you don't confuse what you want to be true, with what is true." Or something like that......

Last season, the fight between Michael and Max, the discord was more and argument over actions, how fast, etc... Michael springs into his impulsive actions when he feel leaderless and knows that something must be done, but nothing is. The Dome visions that led them to Atherton's place. He told Max and Isabel that "the visions weren't leaving his alone." Finding the information, searching immediately was pushing Michael to kidnap Maria and go off on his own. These flashes and visions were probably as strong as the ones that Max and Liz were getting during SH that led them to the orb.

The problem in 285 South was Max was more concerned with staying hidden, to try to do damage control from the ripple effects of his impulsive saving of Liz. He didn't understand exactly what Michael was saying, because he wasn't feeling the flashes and the visions and didn't understand the "drive" that came with it. After SH, Max should have had a better understand of what really motivates MIchael. It isn't a need to piss people off or just being irresponsible, but rather it is a natural drive or instinct.

In their past lifes, their relationship was probably a lot more defined, easier to deal with, and even closer since not only was Michael, Max's second in command, best friends, but he soon going to be family. I really don't see Max and Michael relationship as a father-son relationship, but rather a older brother-younger brother relationship, or even, a brother-brother relationship mixed in with a leader-second in command. Michael proper place in the universe is at Max's side, fighting and protecting.

In the first season Michael was the one in active pursuit of the Truth and the real impetus behind all the real action of the first season, but somehow he was always left behind, "in the kitchen yacking with the girls." His position was taken over by Liz, and later he felt pushed out of the loop when he felt Max was keeping things from him. What did he say? "Your new girlfriend, Tess" and "your new friend, Valenti", "Your just making new friend everywhere." As already mentioned, Max asked for Michael's help and Michael denied it, but his denial was more the reaction of being left out, having his natural place filled by another. "Why don't you ask your new friend Valenti?"

The way to solve many of the discord and argument between the two brothers is simple. Max needs to start leading, without his leadership they are all floundering, and actions are impulsive and dangerous.

Whereas last year the cause and effect that fueled the storyline was result of Max saving Liz's life. This seasons cause and effect ripple is the activation of the orbs. "They are among you." This is the season where Max mature into his natural role as the leader, and his entourage can finally come to their natural places.

Doc

This is a great thread that I actually had never really seen before. Before I read the Liz profile..I was kind of confused about her personality and how she "changed" from Independant in the pilot to more unsure etc.. in later episodes.
The profile explained every thing perfectly and now i have a much better understanding of her character. Its amazing. Thanks!

~violet

the therapy scene worked well regarding max's presentation; but i found myself cringing listening to what the therapist said. he came across like a clinician who actually is discouraging the client from opening up because he's bluntly saying, 'your parents are worried, i think you have buried something, and hey you are just like a million other kids with regular teenage stuff going on'(to paraphrase).

...not a therapeutic approach that i admire. and frankly, given the look on max's face and his tone of voice i would hope that a therapist would not be so quick to buy into the "it's just regular teenage stuff" idea.

by the way, merlin7, very good point about the fact that the podsters have only been out and about for 10 years. and we still don't know how much knowledge was instilled while they were in the pod...but given nasedo's presentation would social skills have been on the top of his list to offer them?

jenlev

ps. a quote from jung that i ran across this weekend... "when an inner situation is not made conscious it happens outside as fate" this brought to mind the issue of the difference between fate and destiny. destiny being the development of conscious understanding so one doesn't become possessed by fate, but rather navigates the archetype and storyline in a way that retains individuality and choice. this seems to be how the podsters and humans are responding to the destiny issue?

I think Michael wants Max to be the leader, and is dependent on him to that extent, but I don't see Michael as counting on Max to save him from all his predicaments. In 285S, for example, I think he expected Maria's car to get to the dome, and wasn't counting on Max appearing anytime. When the car broke down, neither Michael nor Maria mention calling for help, or discuss the possibility that Max and the others would find them. They seemed genuinely surprised when everyone walked in on them in the motel room.

I mentioned on the first psych thread on the old board that Michael is a second in command, not a rank and file private. He isn't a yes-man, and doesn't see his role as being blind obedience. The best example of Michael following a leader that we have is Michael with Nasedo in White Room. Even there, Michael wanted to know why they were doing things one way instead of another, and made it clear he didn't like Nasedo's killing the agent. But once Nasedo addressed Michael's concerns/objections, Michael fell in line pretty quickly.

In Destiny, once Max said he had a plan, we didn't really see any discussion. So we don't know how Michael handled that discussion. But it seems Max was pretty much in control of things, and Michael followed along.

To go back to QFanny's question (at least one of them, belatedly) I think the issue between Max and Michael is that Michael feels they are in great danger, and feels a need to act, and wants Max to lead them. But he has a lot of problems even convincing Max that they are in danger, or that action is possible. My earlier post may have made it sound that I thought Michael wants to sit and be rescued. I think it's more that Michael is wanting to save himself, but needs a leader to guide him.

Max and Michael would be a great team if they could reach common ground on a couple of fundamental issues - are they in danger at all, and if so, what routes of action are open to them? The best teams involve people who are slightly different, so that different talents and insights are brought to the table. Michael could be the voice urging Max on, while Max could the voice of reason urging Michael to be patient. At the moment, after S & B, the two are still stuck at a complete impasse - Michael thinks the evil aliens are coming, Max is hoping they don't exist.

Doc briefly mentioned Max and post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). I'm not sure what is on Doc's mind here, but it occured to me that Max's hope the evil aliens don't really exist might be a symptom of PTSD. Psychologically, Max may not be able to deal yet with the idea of a danger that is probably even worse than Pierce and the special unit. (They at least were human, a known factor; no one even knows what the evil aliens look like or what possible powers they have.)

I've been thinking some more about Michael's comment in jail about all of them being in the dark. It's possible Michael has had a flash of insight into Max's psychology, and will alter his approach in the future. Or at least be more understanding and less angry if Max continues to be unwilling to act. I get the feeling this was a new realization on Michael's part, but we have to wait to see if the insight changes Michael's attitude to Max.

Of course, the attack on Nasedo may force Max to realize they are in danger, which would move him closer to Michael's position. The cost may be some more obvious problems with PTSD, if Max isn't ready to be in danger again.

Michael has been trying all of first season and into S & B to get Max to be the leader. Sometimes this involved/involves even getting Max to accept the fact they are in danger. The dysfunctional part is that none of Michael's arguments worked, yet Michael keeps at them. Michael's new insight into Max may signal the end of this. However Max reacts to the attack on Nasedo, I suspect Michael will try a different approach with Max. Though old habits do die hard.

Interestingly, Michael and Maria are often said to have a dysfunctional relationship because of their fights. Actually, their fights always end up with at least one of them reaching a new understanding about something, usually about how the other feels. Sometimes, they both come to a bit more understanding. Although it is not the most pleasant process, it actually is not dysfunctional, since it is leading to greater understanding and functionality. Unlike Max and Michael's fights, which repeat themselves without ever changing anything, Michael and Maria's fights tend to help resolve some problem, even if the process is slow. At this point, they aren't exactly a couple, but they seem to have considerable insight on each other. Of course, the best thing would have been to understand each other without having to go through the unpleasant fights, but they both had a lot of things to work out.

But to go back to Max and Michael, I don't think putting blame on one or the other is really productive. It takes two to make a dysfunctional relationship. If one side has some understanding of the situation, at least that one side of the relationship could work to really solving the fundamental problems. Which is why I'm cautiously optimistic about Max and Michael now. Things may not get instantly better, and Michael does have to fight old habits, but Michael may have enough understanding of Max to do more than repeat their same old fight.

Seriously, I remeber having an extremely interesting discussion about the effects of torture earlier in the summer. Has that been archived anywhere? Does anyone have a brief summary of it for new posters? That is a discussion I think everyone should see.

Cheerio,

SM

One thing about the Max/Michael discussion, most have stated that Michael is the one that drives (initiates) some kind of action to find out more about themselves. Also, it has been stated that Max usually "cleans up" after Michael when things go wrong.

What I didn't notice anyone mentioning is how – at least in 285 South and then in Destiny – Max ended up being the one to actually take the lead to find out more. Which, at least in Destiny, I somewhat expected Michael to be the one to insist on activating the orbs when it turned out to be Max.

Now that I have written it, my original point has changed, oh well. My original point was that Max also had (at least in the first season) a desire to find out more. Also, now that I think about it, maybe it is just implied in the previous posts or just assumed that of course Max wants to know.

One other thing I would like to have discussed here – or just someone give me there take on it – is why Valenti looked, IMO, so meek in Skin & Bones. The way Valenti was so poorly handling things didn't ring true for me. Could someone provide some insight for me? I expected Valenti to be able to handle the Congresswoman better. I think I'm not considering something or … I just don't know. Any comments would be appreciated to help me understand this (and maybe appreciate Skin & Bones more than I did).

Why? It's probably a mix of many things. The dynamic between him and Michael last season became so contentious that it probably firmed the idea in his mind that he was indeed the one to call the shots. Also, somewhere between his torture (which was severe. Remeber thoses experiments they did on apes to see how much pain they could take until they died. Did the contraption thingy they put one his head not look similar?)
and finding out he was a king, his patience with other people's BS must have dwindled considerably. How can Michael chide him for having an easy life now?

Just musing, I'll finish my thought later.

Cheeeerio,

SM

i posted this on the sci-fi of ask not thread, but on second thought, i should have posted it here?

"palomino: great point about the eyeball shot during max's flashback being a memory from the shapeshifter essense. i'm understanding that flashback as a reflection of the impact of the trauma he experienced; so it makes sense that some OTHER traumatic memory my leak through in that moment when he was completely stressed by the decision he was making. and at moments of great stress flashbacks are often triggered for trauma survivors.

also: given the degree of how max had walled off the whole destiny issue (and trauma experience?) in 'skin & bones', his respone to nasedo's death was not such a surprise. when someone is so completely over-controlled, and this cracks, it tends to crack in a big way.

and nasedo's death was his worse nightmare in so many ways. it meant that he no longer had someone to look to who could explain things(even if he didn't like the answers). it also meant that his dream of a normal life was essentially over- at least for now. and that the people and podsters he loves and relys on are at risk. combine this with the pattern repetition of violence (see the white room) he could easily have become totally discombobulated.(to put it in clinical terms. )

jenlev

ps. just an another thought... the scene of max running portrayed the depth of despair and terror that max had been and was experiencing... and it's interesting as a metaphor for what he has expressed the wish to do....run away from the whole thing.

I just love reading all of this...and for now, I'm content just reading, but maybe I'll actually reply someday...

-jennifer

This is so true! What a perfect way to sum up the inherant difference between Micheal and Max.

What a wonderful thread Psychology facinates me. Eagerly awaiting the rest of the profiles....

Liz

Several different people have attacked her (not on this thread) while others have ignored her completely. While I'll admit that she didn't have a large role in this episode, I thought she was reasonably true to character.

Her dislike of being in the middle of a Max/Michael arguement is nothing new. She hates it when they fight. They are her brothers, and she likes everything to be pleasant between them. Let's keep in mind that she and Max had never fought before "Toy House" and she hates that sort of conflict.

Then, she said they should kill Brody. While somewhat shocking at first; it's really not that out-of-character. Something he did (or she thinks he did) hurt Michael. She is extremely protective of her family. I really don't think she'd have any qualms about killing someone who tried to harm her family. I'm not saying she's murderer, but she could feasibly be a little over-zealous when defending those close to her.

Simply put, I believe that Isabel would take whatever measures she thinks necessary to protect her family.

Wow, that is really, really, really disturbing. If they did that to Max, that just makes his character even more fascinating to me.

Oh, and Welcome, Qfanny! Prepare to have your mind exercised!

Oh, and [b]Welcome, Qfanny! Prepare to have your mind exercised! [/B]

Though I mainly lurk on this thread I had to respond to this post.

At the time Tess forced those images on Max, he had no clue she was his long dead "bride" the fact that she did, doesn't excuse her behavior. She caused a lot pain and confusion all of which would have been avoided had she just come out and plainly said who she was, it wasn't like she couldn't prove she herself was also a podster.

So again no I don't feel her past marriage to Max excuses her behavior. Besides the past is the past even if what Tess said in this episode is true and she can remember her past life and Max's love for her, This is wishful thinking on her part more then anything else I feel, those are the memories of a dead woman, a woman who was born lived out her life, and then died and is now been given a 2nd chance at life, in a different time and a different place what was binding then is no longer binding now. Max has moved on the sooner she realizes that the happier she (and the rest of us) will be to.

Faith

::Shrugs, and apologizes, hence the edit::

First, this hasn't been mentioned in some time, and so I find I should mention it again. On this thread all characters are treated with respect despite how we feel about them personally. We strive to analyze the character's personality, to come to an understanding of behavioral motivation.

Please, I stress please, do not refer to any character by any name, except their own. If you can not find it possible to type out the characters name, then please bypass your need to post. As a doctor, when I treat my patients, whether they are close friends or a stranger, I try to respect them and present a modicum of dignity despite my personal feelings.

I have seen the accusations of "mind rape" throughout the entire forum. I really did not wish to go into a detail argument over this assessment, or even to discuss whether the term is valid. I will say that "rape" is defined and determined by the victim. Victims of unconscious rape, even in the cases of "the date rape drug", do retain the feeling that something wrong has happened to them, something unauthorized and unconsented. Victim of unremembered rape take longer to heal because they can not recall the incident. Max realizes that Tess planted images in his head. He is aware of the intrusion.

The question of whether Max experienced "mind-rape" is best determined by his actions and reactions. Though we as a forum may have an opinion, Max the character is not showing any recussions or adverse behavioral responses to the visions forced on him by Tess. In the Max profile there has been no alteration for the visions he received since he is not showing any effects of violation or trauma. Alterations or amplification of his personality all have to do with his Destiny, his assignment as "King" and leader, and his anguish over having Liz walk away.

Basically, I stand at an impass in this profile. I cannot subscribe behavior to a character that shows no outward behavior to the effect. He does not avoid Tess, he does not react violently to her touch, he associates with her, etc.... To subscribe him a victim would require him being a victim, and the only way to clinically assess victims is from outward signs of trauma.

Karst? Thoughts? I will entertain arguments to either way, but the arguments have to be the result of Max's actions in the new season since this is when the behavior of post traumatic symptoms as a result of "rape" would manifest. Results of rape would not be resolve after a three month summer, so basically, if the trauma has occurred, we should be seeing evidence of it right now.

Doc

Karst? Thoughts? I will entertain arguments to either way, but the arguments have to be the result of Max's actions in the new season since this is when the behavior of post traumatic symptoms as a result of "rape" would manifest. Results of rape would not be resolve after a three month summer, so basically, if the trauma has occurred, we should be seeing evidence of it right now.

Doc

I agree with Doc here. We actually do disagree sometimes. But Max simply isn't acting like the victim of a sexual assault. (This happens more often to women, but when men are the victims, they show the same symptoms - depression, feelings of being "damaged goods" unworthy/unable to be loved, flashbacks, wholly irrational feelings of guilt, general symptoms of post-traumatic stress syndrome, etc. etc.) Max is much too comfortable around Tess to say the experience was that traumatic to him.

He was unhappy while it was going on, but a lot of that seemed to be his confusion and the unknown nature of things. When he tries talking to Michael, he says "I've been having" visions, etc. He doesn't seem to be having them while speaking with Michael. Not knowing what's going on is the focus of his concern. Once he finds out, there is no more mention of the matter.

There is also the problem of the visions that Max gave Liz in Ask Not. That seems desirable since M/L are supposed to be together, and Max is just "helping" her realize that. I really see little difference in the situations. Liz knows what is happening and isn't freaked out and confused the way Max was, but she has clearly said no. When Tess spoke to Max and found out more about him and Liz, she started leaving Max alone.

What I find most noticeable about Max is his growing tendency to force himself on people. Did anyone else notice the fact that the first targets of Max's new power were Michael and Isabel? (The janitor, or whatever, was an accident.) This is the first time Max has actually coerced Isabel. He's said no, but he's never used force on her. This actually gives Max the dubious distinction of being the only podster besides Tess to use a power on another podster. But Tess stopped when she knew Max wanted her to. Max used his new power precisely to impose his wishes on Michael and Isabel. I think we can assume Max knew the two would object to this coercion, and proceeded anyway.

Another aspect of Max that really intrigues me right now is his increasing deceitfulness. Last season, he hid things from Michael and Isabel, such as the existence of Riverdog and the cave drawings. This season, we already have him hiding his new power until he was ready to use it. Also, in S&B, Max consistently rejected Destiny, including the fact that there was a war and he was leader. In Ask Not, Michael clearly sees Max as entitled to lead because he was the leader in their alien existence. Isabel at least thinks there is some conflict going on. Max doesn't say anything out loud, but he does exploit the other's beliefs to get them to follow his dictates. Then at the end, he tells Liz Destiny means nothing to him. If Max is being consistent, and Destiny is really irrelevant to him, then he is guilty of misrepresentation by omission, since Michael and Isabel allow him to be dictator because they believe he is with them. I think their views of Max as leader would change if he revealed his opinions on the whole matter, so he is hiding a very significant fact. If Max has changed his mind and accepts Destiny to the point he really believes he is leader, then he is not being completely honest to Liz, since he is no longer completely rejecting Destiny.

Doc and I freely criticize all the characters, but we see redeeming qualities in all of them as well. Even when I refer to Max as being deceitful, I'm not necessarily criticising him. His situation is evolving significantly from episode to episode right now, and we may get a perfectly respectable for his actions that everyone agrees excuses his actions. And even if we disagree about whether his actions are excusable, his actions are still the product of his psychological makeup and his beliefs and experiences. So even when all the evidence is in, arguing over whether Max should act as he does is fruitless. It all boils down to morality and what characters are most sympathetic. There's no way to have a discussion about that based on pure reason.

One thought concerning what Karst calls deciet in Max, I have viewed as secretive. I see Max as a very private person, Isabel is the closest person to him and yet he doesn't really open up to her either. Isabel and Michael seem to be closer than they are to Max. Just a quick observation. Maybe I will have time to "chat" more later. This is fun

~Sheri

so here is some bumping!!

Is it just me or is Max starting to get scary. Do you notice how he keeps not letting Liz leave when he want's to talk to her? Re-analyze the scene's at the end of both episodes when he confronts Liz.

Frankly, I kinda like this exploration of control-freak manliness. Perhaps his personality is changing as begin's to become more of his "alien" self.

Cheerio,

SM

Frankly, I kinda like this exploration of control-freak manliness. Perhaps his personality is changing as begin's to become more of his "alien" self.

Cheerio,

SM[/B]

Could it be a reaction to the complete loss of control he experienced at Pierce's hands? He's gotten much more controlling since then.

BTW: I don't know how they acted in the previous life, but I kinda think Michael listened to Max, too!

Cheerio,

SM

I suppose now would be a good time to ask Karst and DocPaul if we have permission to use your profiles for the Roswell Season One Theories site. I think Karst got an email back on Sept 15th, but I don't know about DocPaul. If there is a question about what we are doing, please visit http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/ and or email maxcedo@hotmail.com . Palomino expressed an interest in getting the profiles archieved, so I found what I could.

on Maxcedo's behalf
Qfanny!

What I find most noticeable about Max is his growing tendency to force himself on people. Did anyone else notice the fact that the first targets of Max's new power were Michael and Isabel? (The janitor, or whatever, was an accident.) This is the first time Max has actually coerced Isabel. He's said no, but he's never used force on her. This actually gives Max the dubious distinction of being the only podster besides
Also, in S&B, Max consistently rejected Destiny, including the fact that there was a war and he was leader.

Hello, Karst, Doc Paul and others,

This may be only the second time I have posted here. Karst, I did want to say I'm in full agreement with you and Doc Paul about the misuse of the term 'mindrape'. That has been bothering me for some time.

Re: Concerns about Max and the potential consequences associated with the evolution of his powers: Here is a small bit from my longer post of Oct 10 on the 'Importance of Liz...Mythology 10' thread ...What is yet to come, and what may be even more frightening than his words to Liz, is contemplating what happens as Max' powers increase? When he can, even in service to altruism, make people do what he wants. When he can put up his hand and stop not only 2 friends, but governments. Armies. Max still has a ways to go on his path: sometimes thejourney will of necessity be alone, but , sometimes it can be taken with others. We want him to continue the journey because the price of having super powers can mean a path interrupted (by 'path interupted', I mean he is at risk of being ‘consumed’ by power, or he can destroy, or be destoyed, before he has the opportunity to complete his maturation and spiritual transformation).

Finally, while I agree with you about Max's growing ?deceitfulness (actually, I think that might be too strong a term for the dynamics I perceive), I disagree, in part, about the reasons. I don't think that there are 2 opposing actions called for, ie, accept vs. reject Destiny. Indeed, from their individual perspectives, I am not convinced that any one possesses a clear delineation of what 'Destiny' is and, most important, what the consequences will be of embarking on a particular action or not

They each have a right to question the source. Clearly Max more than impulsive Michael. Having said that, I don't believe that 'questioning' is equivalent to inaction, when action is called for (Destiny or no), or neglecting a responsibility. Max is 17, still confused, traumatized and inexperienced. The best and most experienced would have a hard time, in his shoes, not only trying to assimilate, but also trying to define, what (or where)even the most immediate and preliminary 'boundaries' of a rather fluid 'Destiny' exist. And the decision making process would be dynamic, and evolving, rather an either/or prospect.

Sorry if this is a not as clear as I would like. It's 6a. Keep up the good work. Looking forward to reaing more profiles and/or seeing how the characters evolve

Rosta

Max is learning what it means to be a leader. He knows that the lives of people he cares about are in his hands. And the lives of the enemy. Bad guys or not..to kill someone will effect him, as it has Michael. And Max takes on some of the burden of Pierce being dead. I also think that Max is afraid of his destiny, as he now understands it. I think he's also a little afraid of how powerful he is..as well as the others. I think he took to heart what Nasedo said about them all having the same powers..and that he might have been applying science into learning what else he can do with them, like the shield. <I'm also wondering if maybe Nasedo..when dying and he touched Max..if Nasedo maybe gave something to Max. Or maybe helped him blast open the channels to his powers that we might see at a later date. Most of all..I see Max trying to control himself in many ways. I see him as seeing himself as being aggressive in his pursuit of Liz, because being passive would mean losing her and she's at the core of his being. She's the reason why he's in the place he's in now. If Max hadn't saved Liz Parker's life in the CrashDown..things would have played out way differently. I can't wait to see more. I'm hoping that the show is given the back nine cause I'm hoping then they will feel they have the extra time to use in addressing Max's emotional state the way it deserves.

Nuff said! LOL

Hi Merlin7!

Most of your post I either agree with, or at least see your point. I hope I don't give the wrong idea by just discussing the two points I have concerns about.

1. I don't know if we can tell for sure yet how Max would react if Liz said not to talk to her. It used to be that Max disagreed with Isabel, but never coerced her. Liz is a special situation for Max - she is his one and only romantic relationship (in this life), so we don't a track record for comparison. Would Max believe her if she said she didn't want to talk to him? Is Liz avoiding saying it because she doesn't want to hurt Max more? I think the unknowns are especially thick in this instance, more than usual. A lot is going on with Max now, but whether it goes as deep as changes in behavior or just involves changes in how he views the situation is still hard to say.

2. I don't think Michael in Ask Not just wanted to blast away at Brody. He was kind of taken aback at the idea of killing him. And Max wanted to do zero, absolutely nothing. He didn't want to investigate until they had got into the UFO Center and were closing in on the office. Max decided at the last second to try investigating.

If we look back at the times Michael insisting on acting, what Michael wanted came down to investigating. There was always hope of contacting the home planet, Nasedo, etc. But breaking into the sheriff's office was to get information; going to the dome was; Riverdog was seen as a source of info (though Michael later thought he might be Nasedo); burning the symbol into the lawn was to make contact with somebody, which is at least related to getting info (Michael didn't know for sure there was anyone out there with a way home, but at least wanted information); meeting Topolsky involved the communicators, which are a means of getting information (and sending it, of course); watching Pierce's bones being excavated was gathering information, as was Michael's solo break-in into the UFO Center (he made no move to attack Brody when discovered, he just escaped).

Max always vetoes anything Michael wants as "too dangerous," but never explains why. Given how little he knows, how does he know how dangerous it is?

I can't recall Michael ever suggesting violence. (Though he did want vengeance against the jocks that beat Max up. Maybe that is where Michael gets his bloodthirsty reputation.) He wants action, but as I pointed out above, what that boils down to is investigating. Max was the first to plot violent action - in Destiny, when he set in motion Pierce's kidnapping. Max must have known they couldn't kidnap Pierce and then just let him walk away. Then Isabel brings up killing Brody.

To be honest, I see Michael as more prudent than Max. In a dangerous situation, ignorance can get you killed. Even if some risk is involved, you at least need to know who the enemy is. Max doesn't even want to find out who is after them. Michael was right about them all being in the dark. But Michael is willing to take some risk to find stuff out, and Max sees no risk as too small to take.

Max is afraid of losing anybody, but he hasn't figured out yet how to compromise (?) between that fear and the need to act in self protection, or at least find out who to keep an eye on. Max seems much more willing to act in reaction. In S&B, he won't act until Michael is in jail and it is clear who is behind it. This is much the same as what happened last season - Max did nothing, up to the point he was captured, and then the others found out how to rescue him. But what if someone gets caught by skins? Would the others even know where they are? Could they block Iz, unlike Pierce in White Room, so that Iz can't locate them? Would the podsters know how to fight them? Would the next enemy hold anyone captive long enough for a rescue? Max has been lucky so far with his strategy of just reacting, but his luck may not last.

Maybe Max's problem can be summed up as follows: Max has to come to terms with the fact that he cannot eliminate the danger to them. The fact is they are in danger whether they do nothing or whether they investigate. But Max's fear of losing anyone and his feelings of responsibilty leave him trapped between the proverbial rock and a hard place. The result is a tendency to escape into denial and blind hope.

Sorry about all the Max/Michael stuff. But as far as pyschology goes, I think all the interesting stuff right now involves them. Even Max and Liz are back to the old will we/won't we. Nothing new there, at least not yet.

In Blood Brothers, didn't Michael say he at least wanted to know who was following them.

[1]This may be only the second time I have posted here. Karst, I did want to say I'm in full agreement with you and Doc Paul about the misuse of the term 'mindrape'. That has been bothering me for some time.

[2]...What is yet to come, and what may be even more frightening than his words to Liz, is contemplating what happens as Max' powers increase? When he can, even in service to altruism, make people do what he wants. When he can put up his hand and stop not only 2 friends, but governments. Armies. . . .

[3]Finally, while I agree with you about Max's growing ?deceitfulness (actually, I think that might be too strong a term for the dynamics I perceive), I disagree, in part, about the reasons. I don't think that there are 2 opposing actions called for, ie, accept vs. reject Destiny. Indeed, from their individual perspectives, I am not convinced that any one possesses a clear delineation of what 'Destiny' is and, most important, what the consequences will be of embarking on a particular action or not

[4]They each have a right to question the source. Clearly Max more than impulsive Michael. Having said that, I don't believe that 'questioning' is equivalent to inaction, when action is called for (Destiny or no), or neglecting a responsibility. Max is 17, still confused, traumatized and inexperienced. The best and most experienced would have a hard time, in his shoes, not only trying to assimilate, but also trying to define, what (or where)even the most immediate and preliminary 'boundaries' of a rather fluid 'Destiny' exist. And the decision making process would be dynamic, and evolving, rather an either/or prospect.

Hi Rosta!

I lurk on other threads but tend not to post. The Sci-Fi thread can sometimes add 3 pages overnight, and I just can't keep up. I'm glad to see you joining us here.

The numbers in the quote are mine of course. I'm trying to keep this response tidier than the one I did for Merlin7.

[1]It's nice to have positive feedback. Doc and I are always worried about getting flamed for some of our less conventional ideas. (Unless we're in a bad mood and are kind of spoiling for a fight.)

[2]I think you're more into speculating on future possibilities than I am. You also seem to have a metaphysical (philosophical?) bent. I'm afraid we may be talking past each other, to some extent. I am wondering if we are seeing the start of a despotic trend in Max. He definitely rejected the idea of voting. Last year, at least at the meeting at the reservoir over meeting Topolsky, they did vote, even the humans. But so much is going on with Max and Michael and their relationship that my tendency is to point out (possible) trends, and wait till next week.

[3]You cover a lot here. "Deceit" may not be the best word. A lot of what Max does is withhold information. From his point of view, the information is his, and what he does with it is his business. But he doesn't withhold info to keep people from worrying, or otherwise to make them happy. It's a control technique. I'm waiting to see if the topic of Max's new power comes up this week, and how Isabel and Michael react.

As for Destiny, I think all but Tess reject the mating aspect. She seems willing to bide her time. At least now, the king part is the center of the debate, along with the related issue of how absolute a king Max was. The war and rescuing the home planet parts seem to be put off for future discussion. The skins are coming after them, but beyond that the podsters don't seem to be really discussing the issue. But Michael seems to accept the idea of a war. Tess presumably accepts all of Destiny. Isabel seems to see the skins in Roswell as part of a war. (Though her thoughts on returning home and leaving Roswell are still unknown.)

[4]I'm afraid I'm having trouble following everything here. I'm not sure why Max has a greater right to question Destiny (whatever version) than Michael.

I also don't see Michael as impulsive. After that long post just above, I don't want to go into Max and Michael much more. But "impulsive" to me includes a large element of thoughtlessness and acting on the spur of the moment. I don't think Michael is like that. He scouted out the sheriff's office before breaking in, and talked it over with Max and Isabel as well. He was as hesitant as the others about going in the dome. Even when he went to meet Topolsky, he had thought about things well ahead of time. "Impulsive" to me would have been if he had left with her on the spot when he found her in his apartment.

The age part is difficult. From the narrative perspective, if they really acted like 17 year olds, not even many teenagers would watch. Actually, they act more calm and self-possessed (?) than most adults would. We do tend to expect a lot of them, but then they are capable of a lot. Also, circumstances don't let them say very often they're just a bunch of kids, this is too overwhelming.

Maybe I've been posting too much recently on Max vs. Michael on the action question. (And just made it worse in my reply to Merlin7.) What I'm ultimately after is a better balance between Michael as impulsive, out of control, a trouble-maker and Max as the wise and prudent leader. Michael is more a loudmouth than anything (at least among people he knows and trusts). Max's violence can be very disturbing. I'm not necessarily advocating a certain course of action.

I do think Max needs to listen to Michael. But I don't see Michael as demanding a particular course of action. Mostly he wants something done. As I mentioned above, most of what he does on his own revolves around investigating. But I realize Max is under a lot of psychological pressure. He does need to reconcile his fear of losing anyone and the fact that the danger won't just go away. That would be a tall order for anyone, but it's a problem that won't disappear. Unless Max does get lucky and the home team does come from behind. On the other hand, Michael's intense desire to do something, anything is his own effort to deal with the psychological pressures. He is under his own pressures, with deadly danger and a leader he respects but who can't tell him anything reassuring. Unfortunately, their psychological pressures are pushing them in opposite directions. They both need to work towards a solution that gets them headed in the same direction.

Sorry if I missed the point and wandered off-topic.

. . .

I have noticed a very distinct two camps dividing on the issue of the Max-Michael relationship. There are those that pretty much excuses Max and sees Michael as the impetus of his anger. In some sense that is very true, but in others it is not. Michael and Max are both very much alpha males with certain aspects of their personalities that do not alway mesh or complement each other.

I appreciate the Max and Michael dynamics discussions on this thread. I feel that this relationship is not really examined closely enough on the show and the majority of the other threads regarding this topic are merely playing the "Blame Game".

Thank you DocPaul for nixing that tendency on this thread. It is rare to see an intelligent conversation about such a volatile situation but I really enjoy it when it is addressed intelligently.

Forever Lurking ~ Jenn

SM

Now Max is going further than ever before. He decides who is consulted on what (should it be just him, or Isabel and Michael, or all the aliens, and only rarely asks the humans). He used his abilities to restrain Michael and Isabel (as has been pointed out, only Tess has done so before).

Ask Not played up the Cuban Missile Crisis analogy to great lengths. What secret price will Max pay? I think Brody probably is a Skin after all, but that doesn't quite seem to be fit the analogy, since that was true even before he acted. I think the price that Max has incurred, like Kennedy making a secret agreement to withdraw missiles from Turkey, is that he has weakened the trust between himself and his pod-siblings. How will he get it back? I hope that the development of Max's leadership- we've seen that he has potential- is a major theme of the second season.

Peace out

LadyJ: Jenn, thanks for the comment, but please come back into the fray, lurkers are welcome, but we love to see the responses.

Lorrilie: your post wasn't goofy in the least. I think that this year is Max's year (POV). He is coming into his alienside, learning about his power and responsibility, and remembering more of who he once was. As someone mentioned, that in the past life Michael probably listened to Max more, too. That is so true, but in the past life Max was actually doing his job and leading.

The whole Star Wars triology thing and how Luke learns to use his power is very insightful. Max is the leader, we know that, but in the past he has been reluctant, and the relationship between him, Michael and Isabel had ran much like a democracy. They discussed and decided courses of action along the way. Suddenly that has changed. He is forced to decide when to listen to his advisors, and when to listen to his own instincts and heart.

Like the parallel to Kennedy and the Cuban Crisis, Max has begun to realize that leading brings responsibilities that can not be shared. Ultimately, when they fail, if they fail, or if someone dies, it will no longer be, "that impulsive Michael" or "Isabel you can't tell them about us" or anyone else, there will be no more excuses. A leader is the final stop in who is responsible.

His dominions and followers can only be as strong as he is. It is the protocol, the regiment,and the force of character that determines who leads and who follows. Whereas once they operated as a sort of democracy, now the final decision is ultimately Max's, as is the responsibility.

Is Max equal to this task? It requires great sacrifices at the personal level. Would this King give up his life and love for his people? That is the question that will plague his coming of age into power. All the sacrifices will be his, and the sacrifices that his entourage makes will be only those he asks of them.

It will no longer be really a question of destiny versus free will, but rather a question of responsibility of a King versus the heart of the man. If Max shirks his responsibility to his people, and doesn't lead them, is he the man Liz Parker fell in love with?

The age question is a problem, but children Kings have ruled before. The real problem is that the time is now. There is not more safe, as Michael stated. The enemy is already knocking at the door, and according to Nasedo, they are already in the door. Whether Max feels equal to the task or not, the barbarians are at the gate, and time has run out.

It was Max's choice to activate the orbs. The entire group wanted to know, but Max was the leader, and ultimately, the responsibility of what will come is his. Sitting idle and hoping that nothing bad will happen hasn't been effective. A man of action and will is needed to lead. What we have to see is whether Max is equal to his Destiny.

It's a double edged sword, a Catch-22.

I am hoping this makes sense.

Doc

On the other hand, Max probably wouldn't even have approached Brody if Michael hadn't snuck into the UFO center. It's like Michael makes the messes and Max cleans them up, each a little bit wiser afterwards.

Kings of the past are far less noble than our expectaions for Max, however.

SM

Here goes...

With Michael and Max...I'm starting to be sympathetic to Michael a bit more. But I do believe that he needs to listen to Max as much as Max needs to listen to him. A good point is that they both need to LISTEN!

I think the problem between them stems from something stated between them first season <Can't remember which ep> To me it's the reoccurring theme.

Michael: Why are you so afraid to be alien?
Max: Why are you so afraid to be human?

I think that is the trouble between them in a nutshell. Yes..it's grown more complex as time has passed..but it's still the key issue. Here's why I think so.

Max and Michael don't understand each other's lives/feelings/fears. Where the other is coming from. They have a certain insight to what it might be like. Max knows what Michael has suffered, but hasn't felt it. Michael knows what Max has <family> And envies it..but doesn't understand how powerful that is..even though he longs for it. <Remembering him watching the Evans' playing Basketball?>

Michael doesn't understand the depth of Max's love for Liz. No one does..although I think Maria comes closest. Max and Liz have a connection that I think all of us yearn for but is very rare. Michael does not understand Max's actions regarding LIz..never has. Not since PILOT. Still can't comprehend that Max would give everything up for Liz. Family/friends...etc.

Max does not understand Michael's need to discover who he really is. Who/what. Cannot relate to what Michael yearns for, which is..essentially, what Max already has. Family/friends/love..a sense of belonging. As a human..Michael has none of those things..so he wants to flesh out his alien side in the hope that he will find it there.

I liken their situation to this. If a child is born to one black parent and one white parent...they are not black OR white but Black AND white. Though some try to chose, or are forced to choose to be one or the other. The fact of the matter is..they are BOTH!

Micahel and Max are not alien or human. They are Alien AND human. Regardless of Tess insisting otherwise. As Max has responded to her TWICE..being HUMAN is all he knows.

And that brings me back to the Michael/Max debate. The ISSUE between them. Michael has chosen to be Alien and Max has chosen to be Human. But they cannot be just one or the other. They are BOTH and they BOTH need to accept this.

Isabel has leanings toward the human side of herself as well. Wanting family..a MOTHER! And I find it intersting in DESTINY that their REAL MOM chose to show herself in human form because it would be familiar to them. Beacuse they are HUMAN! They're powers are human <just advanced> They're bodies and organs are human. Their emotions are HUMAN!

Michael yearns for the unknown for what it might bring him. For the hope that it will fullfill his needs.

Max FEARS the unknown because it threatens the security and safety he has now. And his relationship with Liz. <And I fully agree that Max has to come to terms with what is real and not what he wants to be real> But after what he's been through..denial on his part is not surprising. Nor his violent outbursts. Such as in the CW's office in SKIN and BONES!

Both Max and Michael need to talk. Michael doesn't listen to Max because Max doesn't do what Michael wants him to do. He wants a specific action. ACTION! And he wants it NOW! When Max doesn't come through for him, he goes off on his own and it becomes the dangerous situation that Max fears. Which Makes Max act more progressively more cautious. He wants to protect those he cares about. Michael knows this. And when Max acts this way..he needs to be more vocal about it. Don't insult Max or get an attitude. TALK to Max. I think Michael may need to be the one to do this because Max is so messed up now. I say this also because Michael knows..full well..that Max isn't ready to be the leader he needs to be. Not right this second. And in knowing this..he needs to help Max. Support and guide him. Work with him and compromise. Michael is in better control. Well..enough said. Thanks for listening! LOL

Both Max and Michael need to talk. Michael doesn't listen to Max because Max doesn't do what Michael wants him to do. He wants a specific action. ACTION! And he wants it NOW! When Max doesn't come through for him, he goes off on his own and it becomes the dangerous situation that Max fears. Which Makes Max act more progressively more cautious. He wants to protect those he cares about. Michael knows this. And when Max acts this way..he needs to be more vocal about it. Don't insult Max or get an attitude. TALK to Max. I think Michael may need to be the one to do this because Max is so messed up now. I say this also because Michael knows..full well..that Max isn't ready to be the leader he needs to be. Not right this second. And in knowing this..he needs to help Max. Support and guide him. Work with him and compromise. Michael is in better control. Well..enough said. Thanks for listening! LOL

Man, this is exactly what I was thinking! I understand why Micheal is frustrated with Max's lack of action, but at the same time, I wish Micheal...and Isabel...would be a little more supportive. Talking is the key. It is something that all three of them need to learn to do alot more often.

Liz

Do we expect less and become pleased when we get more from our leaders, or do we expect more and live in disappointment when we receive less? It is easier to say, "this is the idea" and leave our leaders to work their way towards that idea. Sometimes it is not the achieving that is important, but the struggle to achieve that makes the difference.

But, I really think that Max is capable of being the very idea that are outlined in literature of the portents of being King. It will be the trials and sacrifices and mistakes along the way that will build the character of this King, and define his humanity. We can hope for perfection, but what we will get will be very unique in itself.

I have to laugh when people say that Michael needs to listen. As a parent, I think that thought hundreds of times every day in view of my own children. Somedays,you just want to say "the corner, right now young man." Listening for both Michael and Max are skills we can only hope for. As they mature, as the importance of who and what they are becomes more apparent, we can hope that they will develop these skills. They are stronger standing together, than they are torn apart. And despite who causes the problems, who finds the answers, or what have you, we know that they will always be there for each other.

Max has already begun to evolve as a Leader in just two episodes. The death and fear created when Nasedo died has seemed to waken Max from his dream world, and hurled him into the reality of what is coming. Young and untried, we have to believe that the essences that was cloned from his past life holds all the qualities needed for him to becomes the "beloved Leader" of his people in this life.

I am very interested in seeing the evolution of this mythology myself. It is basically the stuff that great epics are made of.

Doc

Here goes...

With Michael and Max...I'm starting to be sympathetic to Michael a bit more.
But I do believe that he needs to listen to Max as much as Max needs to
listen to him. A good point is that they both need to LISTEN!

I think the problem between them stems from something stated between them
first season <Can't remember which ep> To me it's the reoccurring theme.

Michael: Why are you so afraid to be alien?
Max: Why are you so afraid to be human?

I think that is the trouble between them in a nutshell. Yes..it's grown
more complex as time has passed..but it's still the key issue. Here's why I
think so.

Max and Michael don't understand each other's lives/feelings/fears. Where
the other is coming from. They have a certain insight to what it might be
like. Max knows what Michael has suffered, but hasn't felt it. Michael
knows what Max has <family> And envies it..but doesn't understand how
powerful that is..even though he longs for it. <Remembering him watching the
Evans' playing Basketball?>

Michael doesn't understand the depth of Max's love for Liz. No one
does..although I think Maria comes closest. Max and Liz have a connection
that I think all of us yearn for but is very rare. Michael does not
understand Max's actions regarding LIz..never has. Not since PILOT. Still
can't comprehend that Max would give everything up for Liz.
Family/friends...etc.

Max does not understand Michael's need to discover who he really is.
Who/what. Cannot relate to what Michael yearns for, which is..essentially,
what Max already has. Family/friends/love..a sense of belonging. As a
human..Michael has none of those things..so he wants to flesh out his alien
side in the hope that he will find it there.

I liken their situation to this. If a child is born to one black parent and
one white parent...they are not black OR white but Black AND white. Though
some try to chose, or are forced to choose to be one or the other. The fact
of the matter is..they are BOTH!

Micahel and Max are not alien or human. They are Alien AND human.
Regardless of Tess insisting otherwise. As Max has responded to her
TWICE..being HUMAN is all he knows.

And that brings me back to the Michael/Max debate. The ISSUE between them.
Michael has chosen to be Alien and Max has chosen to be Human. But they
cannot be just one or the other. They are BOTH and they BOTH need to accept
this.

Isabel has leanings toward the human side of herself as well. Wanting
family..a MOTHER! And I find it intersting in DESTINY that their REAL MOM
chose to show herself in human form because it would be familiar to them.
Beacuse they are HUMAN! They're powers are human <just advanced> They're
bodies and organs are human. Their emotions are HUMAN!

Michael yearns for the unknown for what it might bring him. For the hope
that it will fullfill his needs.

Max FEARS the unknown because it threatens the security and safety he has
now. And his relationship with Liz. <And I fully agree that Max has to
come to terms with what is real and not what he wants to be real> But after
what he's been through..denial on his part is not surprising. Nor his
violent outbursts. Such as in the CW's office in SKIN and BONES!

Both Max and Michael need to talk. Michael doesn't listen to Max because
Max doesn't do what Michael wants him to do. He wants a specific action.
ACTION! And he wants it NOW! When Max doesn't come through for him, he
goes off on his own and it becomes the dangerous situation that Max fears.
Which Makes Max act more progressively more cautious. He wants to protect
those he cares about. Michael knows this. And when Max acts this way..he
needs to be more vocal about it. Don't insult Max or get an attitude. TALK
to Max. I think Michael may need to be the one to do this because Max is so
messed up now. I say this also because Michael knows..full well..that Max
isn't ready to be the leader he needs to be. Not right this second. And in
knowing this..he needs to help Max. Support and guide him. Work with him
and compromise. Michael is in better control. Well..enough said. Thanks
for listening! LOL

just wanted to drop in and say I love this thread! Every once in a while it gets lost and I have to try and find it! You guys have amazing theories and ideas that really get my mind going and make me realize things I never thought of before. I was really confused about the whole "Liz personality thing" when the new season started and the Liz profile really helped me get a better sense from a psych perspective of whats going on.
I wonder if the writers even think about this...It would be funny if they had a "Resident Roswellian Psycologist" to make sure everything and everyone stayed in character etc..

anyway..bump!

~violet

Wouldn't it be a coincidence if Tess was the most ordinary of bug-eyed monsters, from the most ordinary of towns?

Did you see Maria grab his arm and hold him back while Max talked to Isabel? I was thinking maybe Maria suggested to Michael that he make that offer. Of course, they didn't actually show them talking or anything...

This is very interesting. One implication is that Nasedo might have revealed much more if he had had a chance to become familiar with the podsters' current personalities. Oh well. That's water under the bridge.

I wonder what will happen now if Tess starts teaching them memory retrieval techniques as she offered to teach Max. Isabel might want to learn them herself (though she might be scared to), but may discourage the others.

Teaching Tess to remember would be undoing a bit of the programming, so that might indicate how much trust Nasedo had in Tess. Or how desperate he was. With only one podster known to him for sure, and the possibility that he might not always be there, he may have felt it necessary to modify plans a bit. I wonder exactly how much Tess does remember.

Remembering their past lives, or at least emotions and bits and pieces, might turn the trio into a real foursome. Tess isn't a member of the inner circle, and can't consciously be made one. The others have to feel for her like they feel for each other. Given how they were raised apart, that would probably be impossible, at least without knowing each other for years, unless alien memories start to influence them.

Darn. I meant to make a little post to fit politely in the conversation. Sorry.

Hello JayJay, no red flags over Isabel and the betrayal thing. I think it is because Isabel hasn't betrayed Max. Valandra (or Vilandra or whatever) is the one that betrayed, and she betrayed her brother, insert some other pseudo-alien name? Personality-wise I am not profiling Valandra since she is still unknown to us, exactly what happened in this betrayal, or whether it really happened is still up in the air. I can't even imagine what the relationship between Valandra and her brother, "the beloved leader" was and if it resembled the relationship between Max and Isabel.

Karst is right, some alien memory retrieval would be very benefitial right now.

I think the question we need to ask is "will Isabel be capable of betraying Max today, in this life?"

Maybe this is the karmic kicker coming back around to give people another chance. Maybe Isabel screwed it up so badly the first time that this is her vindication, her chance to set things right,to make the right choice. Or then again, maybe we are all slaves to karma and destiny and are slated to make the same mistakes over and over again. But if we don't learn anything from a previous life and can't use that knowledge to make a change, then why bother coming back again if you are just going to make the same mistakes again and again? What would be the point?

Anyway, in my long winding way, I am saying that we have to wait and see what happens with this information, and how Isabel responses to meeting the "man she was destined to love". At this point I would say that betraying Max and Michael would be near impossible for Isabel to even conceive, but now doubts about her own "goodness" have been planted.

I think that over a year ago if anyone had told Max that he would betray a sacred trust with Isabel and Michael by exposing them, he wouldn't have believed it. But then a shooting in a cafe one day changed everything he believed about himself and changed how his "family" looked at him.

Karst, still working on that e-mail. I just took a rest from the family thing for a small breather. I have now examined over half my family and am exhausted.

Doc

CW was an enemy, and enemies aren't always truthful.

Remember that he thought Valenti was coming back to lecture him about loosing his pocketknife in S&B. He acted as if this pseudo-parental activity was not something unusual. I figured that they've been talking about Other Things, too.

As for the offer to talk with Isabel: Michael may want to offer her comfort, and/or get comfort from her, about the killings. Probably both. Darn human of him, I'd say.

I found it interesting that no one mentioned that the pods realised Izz/Val betrayed them so maybe thats why Izz was included because the pods didnt know who was the traitor was.

BW

I also agree with DocPaul that what they did in their past lives doesn't control their current lives. But if they do start recovering memories, those could have an effect. I kind of doubt the podsters will be "possessed" by their former selves and lose their current personalities. That would effectively remove a major character. (Though it might happen temporarily. The narrative and fans could support that.) So any recovered memories would be fit into current personalities.

Okay, I'm kind of cheating here - I'm predicting (potential) psychological developments based on how they would work in the show.

So maybe another reason for having them forget was to enable them to create new personalities and relationships, perhaps to heal old wounds and begin afresh? If Vilandra did indeed betray her brother - or he at least thought she did - maybe he needed to forget, and learn to trust her again. And she needed to forget whatever might have led her astray.

But then the plan went wrong, Tess was totally separated from the other 3, Michael wound up in a harmful environment, and the 3 were raised without the conditioning that was probably intended. Perhaps even Tess was not raised as first intended - it's possible the caregivers or primary caregivers perished in the crash and aftermath.

Well... I could go on and on... but I have about a zillion essays to grade (why, oh why did I shoot myself in the foot like this ACK!!! )
TTFN

Qfanny... I agree. Kyle's induction into the "I know an alien" club has been the easiest... except for maybe Alex. Alex had some sort of warning that something was terribly wrong, but couldn't get Liz to fess up for awhile. Once he learned the truth, he was able to question, ponder, analyze, and finally accept.
Kyle, OTOH, was thrown into the fray. He did have the experience, though, of having his grandfather and father both obsessed with alien hunting. Kyle's sudden transformation into Buddah-boy gives us a clue as to how truly shook up he was over the whole experience. He had to find a way to bring order to his world again.

I don't think the writers have carried through with Max experiencing PTS. Michael seemed more affected by killing Pierce than Max was by being tortured.

Max saw part of an alien face in a flashback, so apparently he is slowly getting his memory back naturally, or by techniques Tess memtioned. If he remembers Valandra's betrayal (or she tells him), how is this going to affect him?

In fact, Max is frightened of his parents rejecting him if they find out what he is, but Michael(his "brother") is rejecting him now, Liz (his soulmate) has rejected him, and now it is possible he may find out his sister has rejected him in the past. Wouldn't he question his worthiness if the people closest to him found him unworthy of their loyalty? (Is Tess going to be the only one he can trust?)With everything that has happened to him in the last few months, how can the writers plod along with a Max that is functioning compairatively well? Shouldn't he be more screwed up, or is this a feature of the alien mind (cop out)?

i've interpreted the portrayal of max as someone who is struggling with the mood swings, irritability, anxiety,and agitation prevalent with people who have been traumatized. i also think that the flashes seen in 'ask not' by max were actually ptsd related 'flashbacks'. as some people have mentioned it's quite possible that the image of the 'eye' max saw was a traumatic experience from his shapeshifter life emerging under what was an incredible stressful moment for him.

the podsters, and the members of the 'i know an alien club' are all presenting with the imapact of the trauma they have and are experiencing. the loss of sense of self reflected in the apparently 'out of charactor' aspects of their portrayals suggests this to me.

it's a bit like that line in alice in wonderland when alice said: " i knew who i was this morning, but i must have been changed several times since then."

all the charactors have in fact fallen down a sort of rabbit hole and are visibly struggling with the consequences. certainly in this case, just having knowledge of the situation also represents a form of trauma. so they are all faced with the task of somehow metabolizing what has happened. along the way they might be expected to appear agitated, irritable, moody, and unsure or their own sense of selves.

i expect that in upcoming episodes this will be brought into sharper focus as the plot developments make it harder for the charactors to be in denial about their circumstances?

jenlev

People have called Max a tyrant(absolute ruler).

I’m sorry I don’t see this at all. Max may be trying to flex his royal muscles but no one is buying it. Max tell Michael that concerning Brody there is no voting his say is final, he will have Valenti check things out. Does Michael listen, no. After Michael is hurt, Max starts in with his speech, not the act of a tyrant. Isabel then cuts him off with,” he doesn’t need another speech”. When Max orders Isabel to stop see Grant, does she listen? No, she says she will not be bowing down to him. It seems the only time anyone has ever listened to Max is when he says something they want to hear or Nacedo did say, “As you wish”, when Max ordered no more kill.

Hope you can follow my random thoughts.

I don't have much to add, but wanted to throw this out there... could Whitaker have been correct in her first guess? That Tess is Valandra? Maybe she told Isabel to cause the group to doubt each other and confusion. Just another reason to hold off in making assumptions concerning Isabel and betrayal.

I was wondering if someone would ponder the statement of Whitaker concerning "history always replays itself".... what do you all think? How much would their past lives play out in this life? And how often does history replay itself in real life?

And one other quick thought, Someone posted on another thread that the music Liz was listening to in Whitakers office was "Run, Lola, Run" soundtrack from the movie. Whitaker said it was the story of her life and Liz replied mine too. The movie is about a young couple in a passionate love relationship. The young man gets in trouble and calls his love, Lola, who has 20 minutes to get to him with the money he needs (and she doesn't have). Three different scenarios play out, in one he dies, the other she dies, and in the last one they both survive. Could this be a foreshadowing of things to come on Roswell? Both Whitaker and Liz feel this story could be "theirs", interesting, huh? Anyways, I know what movie I will be trying to rent this weekend!

Keep up the good work everyone! I lovethis thread.

~Sheri

As someone who spends much of her working life coaching business leaders to be better leaders, I found the Max/Michael discussion particularly interesting. Like many others, I'm eager to see how this season plays out Max's growth as a "king" and "beloved leader." My own opinion (in agreement with a lot of folks on this thread) is that right now, Max is making many of the common mistakes new leaders make, and that he's running out of time to make mistakes. Chances are the skins won't be as accomodating about his learning curve as Michael and Isabel seem to be....

I'm also coming out of lurkerdom to share a fanfic I wrote that was directly inspired by the interesting things I read on this thread:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~raddish/laertes.html

The story, titled "Laertes on Broadway," is probably odd -- in it, Michael muses on "The Matrix" and Shakespeare and his own role and Max's and how everything maybe fits together (at least in my mind at this point in the season) -- but I would be interested in hearing your reactions to it.

Consider it my humble contribution to the ongoing discussion.

... Dani (aka Danilise)

Someone needs to respond to my post!

so here is a little bump!

~Sheri

Yes. He seems to have become more autocratic, more dictatorial, more controlling. This is probably a reaction to his severe loss of control in the WR episode.

While we're at it, it was Liz who fingered Tess for the Congresswoman. She'll probably realize that. Do we think that this will affect her?

My guess is that she will be very apologetic to Tess, maybe even friendly. They may have a number of things in common; after all, Max fell in live with them both (so it seems).

Remember, is not an .

I am really hoping to get everyones opinions of my post on pg. 4, if you all don't mind too much,

~Sheri

bump
bump
bump

My absolute favorite thread can NOT get lost

I was wondering if someone would ponder the statement of Whitaker concerning "history always replays itself".... what do you all think? How much would their past lives play out in this life? And how often does history replay itself in real life?

She could have been right the first time. She could have been right the second time. She could have been lying through her too-perfect white teeth.
We don't know what their relationships were like in the previous life, either; nor how they died. We can't tell if it's a repete if we don't know what happened the first time! Argh!

We can't tell yet. I guess we'll just have to watch more episodes to find out!

Surprise (my favorite episode) revealed a lot about Isabel. She had seemed happy in her life, happy to be human. Apparently, that was only on the surface. Isabel is growing ever more worried about who she is. She accepts Whitaker's statements as being true. She dates someone who doesn't know she is Alien (at least she believes he doesn't know)- does she worry that Alex loves her because she is Alien? Or does she merely want a part of her life not to be shared with anyone who knows about this entire aspect of her life? She needs her biological, alien mother- Diane Evans is not enough anymore, and can't help her deal with the major events of her life. She asks "Am I a terrible person?" Her need for a resolution to what being Alien means now seems greater than that of any of the other Podsters, where before it seemed like she was mainly interested in learning more to help Max and Michael.

I am also wondering about Sheriff Valenti's motivations. He is spending a lot of effort protecting a small number of Roswell's inhabitants (who admittedly are in much more danger than most). I don't think this can be explained by a sense of duty, or even by gratitude towards Max having healed Kyle. I think Valenti wants to know about the aliens. It was a major factor in his father's life, and now in his and Kyle's. Now Valenti has adopted his father's quest.

So, since I read this thread all the time but don't seem to add much...I CAN bump and keep us visible!

So here it goes....

bump bump bump

As someone who spends much of her working life coaching business leaders to be better leaders, I found the Max/Michael discussion particularly interesting. Like many others, I'm eager to see how this season plays out Max's growth as a "king" and "beloved leader." My own opinion (in agreement with a lot of folks on this thread) is that right now, Max is making many of the common mistakes new leaders make, and that he's running out of time to make mistakes. Chances are the skins won't be as accomodating about his learning curve as Michael and Isabel seem to be....

I'm also coming out of lurkerdom to share a fanfic I wrote that was directly inspired by the interesting things I read on this thread:
http://www.crosswinds.net/~raddish/laertes.html

The story, titled "Laertes on Broadway," is probably odd -- in it, Michael muses on "The Matrix" and Shakespeare and his own role and Max's and how everything maybe fits together (at least in my mind at this point in the season) -- but I would be interested in hearing your reactions to it.

Consider it my humble contribution to the ongoing discussion.

... Dani (aka Danilise)

Dani,

I finally found some time to read your fanfic. It was great. I would definitely recommend it to others who are interested in trying to understand the process of inner thoughts.

We all have them. We work problems over and over until the decision is made. Usually these are the Big problems. The small stuff we just make the decisions off the cuff and go on because the consequences of a bad choice are less weighty than those from big decisions.

It is interesting that Max is pausing even over the small stuff until either his back is up against a wall (usually Michael) or the situation calls for immediate action. I would say the Michael little speech about being in the dark and being afraid that he won't be strong enough is probably an echo of what we would hear in Max's head.

Well, I must go. I have a tee time to make.

Doc

DocPaul-glad to see you are felling better.

Hugs,

SM

First I'd like to make a comment about Max's behavior since WR. He does indeed exhibit the symptoms of PTS. I recognize those symptoms from my father. He was a POW of the Japanese during WWII for 3 years and 9 months. Growing up I never understood his mood swings and hair trigger temper. One minute there would be my wonderful Daddy and the next he was replaced by "someone else." He has been very controlling and demanding. He has wanted things to be his way and that was it. He has exhibited tremendous paranoia. Growing up I didn't understand him at all.

But I've come to understand the torture (both physical and mental) that he indured. He watched dear friends beheaded, die of starvation, and disease. He was beaten severely a number of times. He left home around 170 lbs and came back around 98 lbs. To say the least it has affected him the rest of his life and those around him. Those who knew him before have told me how different he was when he came back.

My brother also suffers from PTS. He went to Vietnam a very sweet loving young man and came back a very confused, irrational person.

Now I mention these things because though I don't have any credentials, I have first hand experience dealing with wonderful people who have forever been changed by something really terrible.

So in Max I see his behavior as pretty normal given the circumstances. The experience in the White Room took the elements of his personality and magnified them. Before he had a tendency to like to have things under control. He knew he had placed the entire pod squad in danger by his saving of Liz and he was extremely concerned about carefully considering each new move they made. Now he's terrified of losing control and demonstrates that in his outbursts. Instead of trying to find out more information, he's more apt to hunker down and try to protect himself and those he loves. He gives edicts to Michael and Isabel in his effort to control them and therefore the situation. He knows first hand how high the stakes are and that's why he is so tentitive about his leadership role. One wrong move and it could be the end for all of them.

And the way he clings to his love for Liz demonstrates his need for a life line, like he said about her keeping him alive during his torture. The thing that keep my Dad going through his ordeal was the thought of his loving wife waiting at home. When he finally came home she had filed for divorce, which he has never completely recovered from. I see the desperate need that Max has for Liz's help to deal with the challenges that he's is facing.

Now in saying that I don't suggest that Liz was wrong to walk away at the time she did. She was unable to cope with the situation at that point and probably would have been little or no help to him until she was able to get her thought processes straight. She has to be able to be strong within herself and protect herself in order to be there for him. Helping someone with so many issues to face is an awesome responsibility for anyone.

In AN Liz almost seemed taken aback by Max's intensity. Though I think part of her liked the fact that he wanted to fight for her, I think there is another part of her that knows that she has to make the choice to become reinvolved with him based on her own strength to ability to handle it. It must also be a heavy burden for her to feel that she might be responsible for him shurking his duty. If he is less than he feels he should be because her, he may wind up resenting her. She probably senses that.

Riverdog's words are so true, "She must find her own path." She loves him and that's what he needs. But love isn't enough. If she really wants to be of help, she has to be able to understand his needs as well as her own and be able to walk into the situation with her eyes wide open. She has to understand her place in his life and not have to guess about it or her own insecurities will undermine her efforts.

My father married my mother and she didn't have a clue how to deal with his problems. She still doesn't and it's had a tendency to sour her love for him.

A few years I decided to try to learn to understand him. It has been a long process. I made a conscious decision to love him no matter what but not to let him bully or manipulate me. When he tries, I let him know I love him and always will but he has crossed the line and I won't tolerate that. It seems that I'm the one he gets along with the best at this point in time.

I believe Liz is going to become exactly what Max needs because she is going to come to a point that she will have to make the conscious decision to be her best self.

And now that I've gone on and on, spilling my personal life before my fellow Roswellians, you may understand why it has taken me so long to post on this thread. I have a tendency to write a book once I get started and I generally don't have time to do that. Thanks for reading my rambling.
Finally, a moment when I can make a few comments.

First I'd like to make a comment about Max's behavior since WR. He does indeed exhibit the symptoms of PTS. I recognize those symptoms from my father. He was a POW of the Japanese during WWII for 3 years and 9 months. Growing up I never understood his mood swings and hair trigger temper. One minute there would be my wonderful Daddy and the next he was replaced by "someone else." He has been very controlling and demanding. He has wanted things to be his way and that was it. He has exhibited tremendous paranoia. Growing up I didn't understand him at all.

But I've come to understand the torture (both physical and mental) that he indured. He watched dear friends beheaded, die of starvation, and disease. He was beaten severely a number of times. He left home around 170 lbs and came back around 98 lbs. To say the least it has affected him the rest of his life and those around him. Those who knew him before have told me how different he was when he came back.

My brother also suffers from PTS. He went to Vietnam a very sweet loving young man and came back a very confused, irrational person.

Now I mention these things because though I don't have any credentials, I have first hand experience dealing with wonderful people who have forever been changed by something really terrible.

So in Max I see his behavior as pretty normal given the circumstances. The experience in the White Room took the elements of his personality and magnified them. Before he had a tendency to like to have things under control. He knew he had placed the entire pod squad in danger by his saving of Liz and he was extremely concerned about carefully considering each new move they made. Now he's terrified of losing control and demonstrates that in his outbursts. Instead of trying to find out more information, he's more apt to hunker down and try to protect himself and those he loves. He gives edicts to Michael and Isabel in his effort to control them and therefore the situation. He knows first hand how high the stakes are and that's why he is so tentitive about his leadership role. One wrong move and it could be the end for all of them.

And the way he clings to his love for Liz demonstrates his need for a life line, like he said about her keeping him alive during his torture. The thing that keep my Dad going through his ordeal was the thought of his loving wife waiting at home. When he finally came home she had filed for divorce, which he has never completely recovered from. I see the desperate need that Max has for Liz's help to deal with the challenges that he's is facing.

Now in saying that I don't suggest that Liz was wrong to walk away at the time she did. She was unable to cope with the situation at that point and probably would have been little or no help to him until she was able to get her thought processes straight. She has to be able to be strong within herself and protect herself in order to be there for him. Helping someone with so many issues to face is an awesome responsibility for anyone.

In AN Liz almost seemed taken aback by Max's intensity. Though I think part of her liked the fact that he wanted to fight for her, I think there is another part of her that knows that she has to make the choice to become reinvolved with him based on her own strength to ability to handle it. It must also be a heavy burden for her to feel that she might be responsible for him shurking his duty. If he is less than he feels he should be because her, he may wind up resenting her. She probably senses that.

Riverdog's words are so true, "She must find her own path." She loves him and that's what he needs. But love isn't enough. If she really wants to be of help, she has to be able to understand his needs as well as her own and be able to walk into the situation with her eyes wide open. She has to understand her place in his life and not have to guess about it or her own insecurities will undermine her efforts.

My father married my mother and she didn't have a clue how to deal with his problems. She still doesn't and it's had a tendency to sour her love for him.

A few years I decided to try to learn to understand him. It has been a long process. I made a conscious decision to love him no matter what but not to let him bully or manipulate me. When he tries, I let him know I love him and always will but he has crossed the line and I won't tolerate that. It seems that I'm the one he gets along with the best at this point in time.

I believe Liz is going to become exactly what Max needs because she is going to come to a point that she will have to make the conscious decision to be her best self.

And now that I've gone on and on, spilling my personal life before my fellow Roswellians, you may understand why it has taken me so long to post on this thread. I have a tendency to write a book once I get started and I generally don't have time to do that. Thanks for reading my rambling.

OTR31 er
Oh the leaves they fall they go so far sometimes,
Do I blame the wind or the tree that let it go?
Or do I wave goodbye
Settling. -Tara McLean

I guess what I was trying to say was that I thought it was ok for Liz to walk away till she felt she was strong enough to handle the situation. She needs to be able to walk into his life with her eye wide open to what life for them would be like. For a long time I think that deep down inside she clung to the hope-against-hope that there could be something of "normal" for them.

Destiny smashed that hope. At that time I think she could no longer see a place in his life for herself. She was intimidated by Tess and her "position" and she also probably felt guilt about possibly standing in the way of his being who he needed to be. If there is one thing I've discovered in this life, it is that there are rarely singlular motivating factors to our behavior. It all hurt her so badly that she had to run away from it.

With Max's declaration in Ask Not that he didn't care about anything but her, I think she is slowly allowing herself to drift back into the old fantasy. She cares so much for Max that it would be easier to go back with him than stay away.

But I have a feeling that TEOTW is going to be another wake up call for her and she will have to make hard decisions. (That's not from spoilers, it's from watching the trailer on the WB a million times.) In making hard decisions I believe she will come to know herself better - her strengths and her weakness - and at some point in the future she will be able to offer Max what he really needs. She will be able to be "the wind beneath his wings" only because she will be able to understand his strengths and weaknesses. She has to be able to know what she is willing and able to give and take.

And I believe that deep down she is the one that can give Max the understanding and support that Max is going to need to deal with his challenges, because of the strength and tenasity (sp) of her character.

Going with the asumption that Tess does indeed have the past life as her claim on Max, I still don't think she has the qualities that she would need to help him in this life. There has been little to prepare her for dealing with how very Human he is now. She is constantly leaning on the "What now Max?", "You're the leader!", "Remember the past." mentality. Max has everybody leaning on him and I don't think he needs that from Tess. Liz is a strength unto herself that, once she matures, will be a true help for Max - a partner as well as his love.

Picture if you will, back in the pioneer days, two oxen being yoked together, pulling a heavy load. It was always the goal to put two oxen together of equal strengths. Otherwise the stronger one would end up pulling most of the load and wearing out too quickly while the weaker one wouldn't gain any strength by working it's muscles. Equally yoked they both become stronger.
That's how I picture Max and Liz. No matter what difficulties they have to face they are equal to them.

Due to her lack of human exposure Tess functions under a bit of an emotional handicap. Tess is really going to need someone to be there for her. I don't think Max's needs and his lack of feeling for her will be a positive thing for her in the long run.

Oh dear, Doc Paul talks about how long her posts are. Sorry, I'll shut up now.

I liked what you said about Tess. I think you're right- Max can't offer her the support she needs in adjusting to living among humans (the Podsters are culturally human too, unlike Nasedo). Kyle seems an unlikely choice, based on his chosen image as the tough jock, but I think it is clear that he is a lot deeper than he wants generally known. His interest in Buddhism I think will play a major role. Tess mentioned she has also had her world turned upside down- I wonder if she will borrow his book? I doubt she'll ask first if she does.

On a seperate, but related note, I really appreciated the personal insight shared with us by Rozburtie into PSD from war experiences. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us - I found them very moving. I think years of torture or direct experiences of war must have a greater impact on the psyche than TWR did to Max. Or maybe his years of secret alien have culminated in his nightmares being realised? Interestingly, this is the only episode I cannot bear to watch again.

On a seperate, but related note, I really appreciated the personal insight shared with us by Rozburtie into PSD from war experiences. Thank you for sharing your experiences with us - I found them very moving. I think years of torture or direct experiences of war must have a greater impact on the psyche than TWR did to Max. Or maybe his years of secret alien have culminated in his nightmares being realised? Interestingly, this is the only episode I cannot bear to watch again.

MissT I think right about the issue of Max's caution stemming back to what happened in their other life. That may be why he would rather err on the side of caution. And yes you are right that the year of torture and war would have more of a cumulative effect than Max's one experience in the White Room. But when you take into account the deep seeded effect from the former life that is probably hidden somewhere in his psyche, add to that years of strain from hiding and not knowing who or what they are, guilt about being the one who exposed them through healing Liz, learning that "the buck stops here" cause he is the leader, losing the one girl he ever loved and mix that with the WR, I think he has plenty of reason for exhibiting PTS symptoms.

AlexEvans I really do think that Kyle and Tess could be of help to each other because they are both coming from a similar direction although their backgrounds are completely different. They both suffer from neglect, rejection and a need to find a place for themselves. Shall I say "equally yoked"?

Reggie you've got something with your theory as to why Iz/Valandra is hesitant about relationships. Maybe that's a big part of why she keeps everyone at arms length.

Doc Paul, Karst where are you? We miss you.

quote:Originally posted by Rozburtie:
Reggie you've got something with your theory as to why Iz/Valandra is hesitant about relationships. Maybe that's a big part of why she keeps everyone at arms length.

Doc Paul, Karst where are you? We miss you.

OK, MissT, you can have Max. I'd prefer Isabel, anyway.
And while we're at it, is Michael's impulsive go-getter-ness a reaction to an earlier moment of indecision, or was he always this agressive (as a soldier should be?)?

And what about Tess? Is she reacting to her earlier life, or, if Tess has any memories of that life, is she continuing it?

We need to know more about Tess's character. Duh!

You're right, we need lots more info about Tess in order to know exactly what it is that motivates her. Maybe soon we will get that info, not only for her but for all of them. What I love most about Roswell is the depth of the characters. They are all so complex and are becoming more so.

Hopefully after TEOTW there will be more that can be added.

I still think, that if Proto-Max really loved Proto-Tess, that ther must be some really good qualities to the gal. He's got good taste in women: look at Liz!

Doc and I do live. We've mostly been ghosting recently.

We're fascinated by this season. The psychological element is very large. The podsters are undergoing significant psychological evolutions, or at least they are learning to adapt their core behaviors to their situation better.

Which is why the profiles are at a standstill. We don't know what will happen next week that might cause a significant reevaluation.

Last week, one thing I noticed was that Michael didn't argue with Alex over Maria, and didn't seem at all mad at him. Last season, you might recall, Maria always had to fight to get him to admit he was wrong. And when Max hit him, he was ready to go at it hammer and tongs. In EOTW, Michael was pretty clueless about how to deal with Maria, but he readily accepted he was wrong. That seems to be a significant development.

Maria may have reached a turning point as well. We have to wait to see her next week to be sure.

Doc and I are still pretty happy with the Liz profile.

The Tess profile already needs major revision. This may surprise some people, but Doc and I see her as clearly the most functional and least pathological of the podsters. Two key elements that came out this season seem to explain this:

1. Nasedo seems to have been much more nurturing than Doc and I thought. We assumed Nasedo cared for Tess's physical needs, but neglected her emotionally. But Tess mentioned after his death that he tried to prepare her for the possibility he might not always be around. And she said it in a context of coping emotionally, not providing for physical needs. Whether Nasedo felt human emotions or not, he seems to have had some intellectual understanding of human emotions and development.

2. Unlike the others, Tess has some memories of her previous life. Those could help compensate for any shortcomings in Nasedo's upbringing. [The following details are my own.] She would not have the feelings the trio do (or did last season) of being lost and abandoned. (Nasedo's presence would have helped in that area, anyway. Though Nasedo alone probably would not have created a great sense of security and belonging, since losing him was a distinct possibility.)

Aside from the background explanation, the main reason we see Tess as the best adjusted is simply that she has been so functional this season, and in generally appropriate ways. [The following examples are specifically mine. We have discussed some of them, but not all.] She was sad at losing Nasedo, but coped. She recognized he wasn't really a great parent, but missed him as all she had. And she had insight into all this. She's been a bit selfish and bitchy with Kyle, but not to pathological levels. And she's been treated as an outcast (except by Michael) for the past six months, which would naturally make people both lonely and irritated. She was thinking of leaving Roswell, but not in a fit of anger and despair like Michael in ID. She was just running out of patience. She has more insight into the feelings of others than the trio. She understood Kyle's feelings to some extent, and was able to find similarities in her own to make a connection. She is aware she is basically hated. (Which also helps explain her bad mood, which actually isn't too bad.) Still, she was able to cope with her sad situation without acting out. She was able to deal with Liz, despite all the emotional stuff between them. She can deal with Max's attitude towards her, and could think of even the possibility she should just give up. In contrast, Max and Michael often hardly understand each other, and Michael doesn't understand Maria, either. The trio as a whole sometimes can't function as a unit, despite knowing each other for years. Max has difficulty with his leadership role. Isabel is going through an identity crisis (human vs. alien, with plenty of ramifications). The trio as a whole have problems with their feelings of fear and isolation. Tess seems to cope.

Anyway, people have been asking about Tess and I haven't put in an appearance for a while. Doc and I tend to intervene most when the thread is languishing. Or maybe I shouldn't say that. I don't want people to stay away hoping to draw us out. If there is a good discussion going on, we tend to let people have fun. Our posts are so long and preachy we feel like killjoys.

Karst

Interesting insights into Tess. I'll have to "meditate" on all of that. I've never been a Tess hater - thought she had alot of potential. But I have to admit to a little bit of prejudice against her because she came between Liz and Max. I know this isn't a shipper thread (thank goodness) and I only mention that because my initial reaction to the observations was negative. I sometimes think that the "Psychology of Roswell" can deal as much with the viewers as it does with the characters. I've noted that each of us tend to see the characters according to our own set of standards. In order to understand, it is good to step out of our own thought processes and observe from another point of view. The sharing here is great.

Having said that, I will try to explain what my point of view is. I think the introduction of her was a very good plot device. She has definately shaken things up and challenged the status quo. I tend to like Liz alot and the natural tendency to dislike someone who has hurt someone I like is in full force.

Another part of what bothers me is the portrayal by Emilie de Ravin. There is alot of arm waving, lip curling, and head shaking that tends to give her an air of melodrama. It's hard for me to separate those things from the character.

I do see a vulnerability in her (both in her smallness - physically, and in her uncomfortable situation). That vulnerability tugs at me and I find myself wanting to sympathize with her.

The fact that these characters make us feel so many things makes quite a statement about the show. It makes us look deeper into ourselves to try to understand each of them. That to me is the beauty of Roswell.

While I have nothing to post in reference to the current discussions I do have a question about the profiles. If I understand correctly there are profiles for Nasedo/Liz/Tess/Michael/Maria. I have read all but the Maria profile, because I can't find it anywhere. A couple others on this thread have asked where they are, but no one has responded so I thought I'd ask again. Thanks and I'll definitely be back to this wonderful thread.

Tess is the most 'changed' by far. I have come to like her more with every episode of the new season that she has appeared in. She is coping extremely well with harsh circumnstances. She recognizes how others feel about her, without succumbing to bitterness.

Isabel choosing to date Grant Sorenson *restrains himself from bashing with a very great effort* indicates something not quite right. Her self-doubt, revealed in Surprise, is probably going to play a major role in her ability to react to events.

It was mentioned that if Liz ever told Max to leave her alone that he would. After watching EOTW we know this is not true. She gives Max the "I don't want to die for you" speech, and he still shows up at her window the night of the concert. We find out from F-Max that this was the night they first made love. We don't know how this played out because this present/future event is stopped from happening, but we so see Liz's STRONG reaction and proclaimation that she is not ready to have sex at this point in her life. I believe this is true, but that when Max is fully focused on her she loses herself in him and would have been capable of making love to him in that moment, which as it turns out is entirely the wrong moment, at least according to the story arc it is.

All this fits in with what Rozburtie said about Liz going back to Max when she is in control of herself. In the context of EOTW Liz going back to Max too soon can have dire consequences for all in volved. Knowing what she knows now she will be more careful.

I also wanted to mention that Max showing up at her room the night of the concert (if FMax hadn't time traveled)would have allowed Liz and Max to consummate their relationship and Max would yet again be able to avoid taking on his responsibilities as leader and he could again pretend he was a normal human teenager with a girlfriend, etc.

great thread...

~violet

As for Tess, I do think she is functioning as well as anyone in their oddball situation. We still don't know if she has the courage not to use her mindwarp ability for selfish ends. But last season's manipulation of Max is beginning to look more and more reasonable.

Oh boy do I agree with you on that. I was thinking about that earlier. I picture Iz being really ticked at Liz for hurting her brother. And Michael who at one point said reading her journal had given him one more reason to envy Max, will think pretty badly of her too. She has unselfishly placed herself in a position where they will be upset with her and she can't tell them that's unfair.

thank you marshanne, rozburtie, jamethiel, violet, alex evans, and karst for addressing the issue of developmental life stages superimposed over the extraordinary circumstances these characters find themselves in. it's great how this thread and the 'scifi of the end of the world' thread are 'weaving' together to focus on how these characters must grow and mature in order to maintain their interpersonal ties.

might it be in character for both max and liz to avoid telling anyone the specific reason for their apparent distance from each other? and kyle seems at this point to be able to keep silent as well? so although people around them will know that something is up; the exact details might remain hidden?

however as several people have already written on the scifi of the end of the world thread; max's use of his feelings for liz as a way to avoid his own awareness of destiny and his traumatic experiences had produced an unhealthy, non-generative aspect to the relationship. and i agree that eventually max and liz being together will be what allows him to take responsibility and act effectively. (paraphrasing myself as i'm a tad fried tonight )

anyway, it's great how the science fiction details of the story work to support the psychological examination of the characters who are the story. thanks again for the the interesting and creative ideas you have posted!

jenlev

Well, I don't know about Alex. I do know that Liz and Maria have been best friends for like, forever. I feel sure that Maria will worm out of her what the problem is. Tess already knows the what, but not the why. (She may not realize that the "betrayal" was faked, but knowing Kyle really wasn't involved with Liz, as well as Liz's ongoing efforts to disinterest Max, makes that realization likely.)

Someone mentioned that Max could use a drink. I think maybe Liz could; and if Maria gets Liz drunk... in vino, veritas.

Hi Jenlev,

I think this is quite possible. Liz is not proud of what she did. Max tends to retreat into himself (witness his silence in the final scene), and aside from purely physical stuff, Kyle has said he didn't want anything to do with the podsters and company (though he showed at Isabel's party).

Tess is the most 'changed' by far. I have come to like her more with every episode of the new season that she has appeared in.

AlexEvans

I couldn't agree more. I find myself liking Tess more and more as well. I think this is a deliberate move done by TPTB. They want us to except Tess as a alien with feelings. They seem to be well on there way. She's really built up a lot of empathy.

When Tess finds Max on the park bench, I remembered how Max walked Tess home in Ask Not. This seems to me Tess can recognize a parrallel and match it with the best of them.

Okay, I admit to be away from it for a while. I see the request for the old profiles are still being asked for and both Karst and I do have them.

To date:

Tentative Nacedo/Nasedo (never could decide on the spelling) profile as addendum to Tess.

Tess profile which is rapidly changing, but I am pleased to report that our first inclination to take her at face value and as one of the podsters is keeping her profile very clean. But, as Karst has stated we are finding her less and less dysfunctional and her profile was based on what little we knew of her and motivations of her actions. There is some definite overhauling needing to be done, but I fear that over the next few episodes we may see even more.

Liz profile still stands firm. She still remains a leader type with resilent resolve. The tendencies of shippers that want Liz to confess must realize that within the Liz profile is her toughness to make decisions, hard decisions for both herself and others that may not be popular or understood, but she will make those decisions because she feels they are the best solution. I expect her to keep her own council about the whole Kyle and Future Max situation for a while. Remember if she tells either Maria or Alex, it would be out of profile for either of them to betray her confidence. It will be interesting to see what does happen and work from there.

Max profile I have been promising the rewrite forever and I will do it. I promise, but time constraints for me have been very bad lately. Anyone needing to see the old profile may PM me or something. I wouldn't suggest e-mail since I am changing my carrier in the next few days, but if people PM me their e-mail address I will see what I can do. This applies to other profiles as well.

Old Michael profile still is very valid, but need some tweeking. He has evolve far more than I would have expected. Basically, we judge his action very harsh at times, but he is showing admirable change. Next few episode up to about episode #10 should be very revealing.

Old Maria profile still also is very valid with some modifications. I think that how Maria deals with EoTW in future episodes will be enough information to revamp her old profile.

A new Alex profile is done, except for one section that I have a block over. I really need to do so hard thinking before I can finish it. I really only watch the episode 2-3 times. I tend to have photographic memory, so rewatching isn't always necessary. But at times I have to go back and look at things from a fresh angle, and something about Alex's profile is off. I can't put my finger on the discrepancy, but I know its there. Long post, for small information, but alas, it is my forte.

Isabel's profile has yet to be done, and she has changed so much that it still sits in yellow legal pads waiting for me.

There will be both a Kyle and Valenti profile eventually. Valenti's would be the easiest to do at this time, but Kyle is fast adding new information to his.

On a side note about Karst posting, and our belief that Tess is showing the greatest amount of functional ability. The answers might lie in Karst post about how Nacedo tried to prepare Tess for the possibility of being alone. Of all the podsters, Tess was the only one raised with the benefit of having an adult protector that knew about her. The other three were basically foundling lost and very isolated with no adult protection. Granted, Isabel and Max did have a nice home and loving parents, but their parents don't really know them. Michael was further isolated by not even having the nice family and also from lacking an adult protector. Much of their dysfunction comes from the paranoia of having to remain hidden and inconspicuous for so long, and knowing that they were alone. Remember that until they knew there was a fourth alien, the original three thought that they were all that was left. Originally they were more concerned with remaining hidden, or being able to leave within a moments notice if they were discovered.

Okay, this is probably long enough for now. Back later. Karst and I have been approached about having our profiles archived on the net. Neither of us have any problem with that, but we do want people to know that these profiles are not the definitive personality and are subject to change with changing events. Personally, I am quite pleased with how well many of them are staying true to form.

DocPaul

Where's Iz?

Cheers,

SM

I hadn't dwelt on the parallel with S&K, but it is very close. Tess, although functioning the best of all the Podsters as far as being capable of surviving, is still learning how to relate to others. Because of her secret, she has been withdrawn from others, and has started to open up much later than the other three- and in particular never had two other Podsters her own age to relate to. I don't think what she is learning is how to care about others, but how to express her emotions (without going overboard and using her mindwarp).

Surprise showed a lot of Isabel. She broke down at the end, but this doesn't seem that bad to me. She held things together until the crisis was over and she was alone, and then let her pain out. Doc may be able to tell me if I'm right, but that seems healthier than bottling everything up. The self-doubt she expressed is definitely important.

Isabel and Max have been growing ever further apart. I don't recall her ever turning to Michael for emotional support. She's cut herself off from Alex. Grant (grr) doesn't know her secret (unless he is a Skin), and clearly cannot offer her the support she needs. Who else is there? She is dealing with this stuff on her own. Unless she accepts Michael's offer to talk about things, or lets Alex close again, her self doubt may cause her to distrust her judgement too much, eventually prevent her from acting in a crisis. It is incredible that she has been absent for two episodes with these issues unaddressed.

Cheers,

SM

Agreed. I would hope that Max was convincing, rather than overpowering. She did marry him, two years later; and in the teaser seemed to be in love with him. Still, as UNforceful as Max has been so far, it does seem... odd.

Sublime Muffin Quote: "Was anyone else shocked by "I didn't take no for an answer?"
I don't think it would be out of character for Max to have seduced her, but they are playing with rape fantasy here."

Somehow I hadn't considered Max saying that in any other context but that since he loved her and KNEW that she loved him, he convinced her that the time was right. I think it would have been completely out of character for Max to have seduced Liz. Think about Max in SH and how he asked Liz if she were sure? Although it has been acknowledged many times in this thread, and I agree, about Max's need for control and his 'bossiness' as a leader (due to inexperience and uncertainty), in his relationship to Liz I only see him as hesitant, unsure and protective. He loves her, he needs her. But I think he felt that Liz was getting way too far away and had to reel her in before it was too late. Knowing Liz's true feelings about Max, I doubt it took too much persuasion on Max's part, once he was able to fully focus on her and she on him, to consummate their relationship. They both have obviously hungered for each other!

Just some thoughts. Thanks all for your insights.

Yeah it courageous but what are the alternatives?
Have Michael and Isabel die and have the world taken over by the Skins??
Everyone she knows would be effected. Her parents, Maria and Alex.

She was doing it as much for Max and her love ones as she was doing it for herself.

Bandbabe

Having said that, I will try to explain what my point of view is. I think the introduction of her was a very good plot device. She has definately shaken things up and challenged the status quo. I tend to like Liz alot and the natural tendency to dislike someone who has hurt someone I like is in full force.

Another part of what bothers me is the portrayal by Emilie de Ravin. There is alot of arm waving, lip curling, and head shaking that tends to give her an air of melodrama. It's hard for me to separate those things from the character.

Hi Rozburtie:

It is hard to separate out personal feelings when evaluating people. A really thorough psych eval intentionally involves a lot of people to help get around this. Standardized psych tests are another attempt. (Though they have the added benefit of adding a quantitave element.)

For the record, I'm not sure if I really like Tess very much. I am one of those who feel more sympathy for her this season. The word "functional" has limited moral implications. Murdering people who offended you would not be considered functional, because it is too likely to cause problems later. It could also be a way of avoiding the root problem, which would keep gnawing at you. But there are some pretty obnoxious people out there who would not be considered psychologically disturbed.

I think last season, Tess was probably having problems with a lot of new situations for her: she was trying to cooperate with humans for the first time (aside from maybe school assignments); she was in a position where people besides herself and Nasedo knew her secret; she was interacting for the first time with people she really considered her peers (namely, the trio), and she had never done that before; and maybe a few other things. People more often than not don't do things well the first time, and Tess was probably also dealing with some powerful feelings about everything.

She seems much more subdued this season. Maybe she did a little arm-waving with Kyle in EOTW. But her emotions were getting a bit high during her little rant. Otherwise, when talking to people she seems fairly normal this season. I hope I don't get flamed, but she was very quiet and cautious on the park bench at the end of EOTW, so she recognized how upset Max was and probably did as much as possible.

I was also disturbed by FMax's comment that he didn't take now for an answer. The way Liz reacted to the idea doesn't make it easy to believe that she casually agreed. I think the creators goofed by making both sides so adamant. It is hard to avoid getting the idea that it would have been rape. Except that it "cemented" their relationship. Things just don't match. Things would have fit better if Liz had just said something that sounded a little surprised or puzzled. Better yet, if she had sounded as if she liked the idea.

Well, she might have been more receptive if she'd had the full effect of the Mariachi band stunt, without FMax putting his two cents' worth in as a running commentary. Perhaps, in the privacy of her own mind, she wouldn't have minded so much, but saying it out loud to someone else forced a firmer denial?

From their history together we do know that they weren't far from the mark, anyway, in the not too distant past. She was almost ready to go the distance when she began getting flashes of the crash. So, if you knew that remaining in love with someone would end the world, would you admit that you still wanted that person?

As for Max. We know he is intense and we know Liz loves him deeply. And when he touches her it brings back all those memories and feelings (i.e. The end of episode 1 of Season 2 in front of the Crashdown). I don't think Max needed to do much in the way of persuading and this is getting way longer than I intended . . . sorry!

Anyway, I don't think Max necessarily went to Liz's window that night intending to cement their relationship quite the way it happened. But I do agree with what was mentioned earlier that he felt her moving further away and wanted to bring her back in before it was too late.

Hmmmmmm . . . . hope that made since.

On another note: I love this thread. It is one of the most interesting ones that I have read yet!!! Wow

"And you would have felt my soul in a kiss . . ."

-Swinburne

Sublime Muffin Quote: "Was anyone else shocked by "I didn't take no for an answer?"
I don't think it would be out of character for Max to have seduced her, but they are playing with rape fantasy here."

Somehow I hadn't considered Max saying that in any other context but that since he loved her and KNEW that she loved him, he convinced her that the time was right. I think it would have been completely out of character for Max to have seduced Liz. Think about Max in SH and how he asked Liz if she were sure? Although it has been acknowledged many times in this thread, and I agree, about Max's need for control and his 'bossiness' as a leader (due to inexperience and uncertainty), in his relationship to Liz I only see him as hesitant, unsure and protective. He loves her, he needs her. But I think he felt that Liz was getting way too far away and had to reel her in before it was too late. Knowing Liz's true feelings about Max, I doubt it took too much persuasion on Max's part, once he was able to fully focus on her and she on him, to consummate their relationship. They both have obviously hungered for each other!

Just some thoughts. Thanks all for your insights.

There was something in the way future Max said "I didn't take no for an answer" that was very suggestive that something "off" took place that night. I don't think that our gentle Max would do anything to hurt Liz, but you can easily see where they are playing with rape fantasy.

Perhaps they'll explore it more in future episodes. If Max ever toungue kisses Liz again and get's flashes of what exactly happened between her an FM. He might think about his own feelings that night and consider if he might have done something wrong.

Just a thought.

SM

This is what I was getting at in my last post, but Ms. Muffin said it better I think. I can't believe real violence would happen between Max and Liz. But the wording sounds a lot like just that happened.

The best way to reconcile things is to say Max took a long time persuading Liz. I think Future Max's words at least imply a lot of persistance.

Whatever might have happened, I don't think we have enough info to draw very firm conclusions. Not enough to really change any profiles or analyses. It's like an odd bit of gossip that you wonder about but seems not to mean much in the big scheme of things. We need more info before we can really say for sure we need to alter our perceptions of Max and Liz.

The best way to reconcile things is to say Max took a long time persuading Liz. I think Future Max's words at least imply a lot of persistance.

Whatever might have happened, I don't think we have enough info to draw very firm conclusions. Not enough to really change any profiles or analyses. It's like an odd bit of gossip that you wonder about but seems not to mean much in the big scheme of things. We need more info before we can really say for sure we need to alter our perceptions of Max and Liz.

No, but we have enough to talk about. It add's an interesting slant to the conversation to comtemplate whether or not Max is capable of doing something "off". Which, forgive me if I don't see him with the same rose-colored glasses as everyone else, but I think he might be capable of being heavily persuasive.

SM

But I agree with SM that the "I didn't take no for an answer last time". response was a bit shocking. But FM seems to think that it was both their ideas, and FL said she regretted nothing. So I doubt a seduction took place, much less a rape.

Perhaps FM was trying to scare up Liz a bit to do something.

But I do want to say, I think the reason why Tess left was not so much because Max and Liz love one another, but because Max is using his love to Liz as a reason to hide from Destiny. He can't be the king of another world if he's in love with Liz, the simplest of small town Earth girls.

When Liz told Max that if he truly loved her, he'd let her go. I think Max found it convient to hang on to Liz and hide from Destiny.

But like I said, I'm sure most of you commented on this before.

His flaws are that he is controlling, he trusts his own judgement too much, but he clearly means well. He cares about Liz more than about anything else.

On the Liz profile - I agree with much of what was stated. It was extremely observant, thoughtful and well written. However, I find several of the insights on Liz's character that were offered were in direct opposition with one another. According to the profile, one of Liz's traits is that of self-absorption and self-focus, yet it simultaneously states that "Liz Parker would die a thousand deaths than leave one friend behind, to sacrifice one individual," also noting that "the fastest, hardest resolution to a crisis is the one she will think of first, throwing her into the fray without thought of personal injury." If Liz's true focus was herself, would the latter statements hold any truth?

In "The End of the World", when Future Max tells her of what she must do, Liz takes immediate action without complaint. She doesn't attempt to delay the painful task ahead of her, even while knowing it may destroy her chances at happiness. I find it hard to believe a person so focused on themselves would behave in such a manner; one of Liz's most admirable qualities is that time and again, she displays the ability to sacrifice herself for the greater good. Once she realizes what she has to do, she does it with remarkable strength of mind. Wouldn't a character focused more on themselves rather than others take the more selfish road, or at least hesitate to take action that would be contrary to their own well being?

But, in defense of the aforementioned insights, self-absoprtion is a key characteristic in leaders, and Liz is very obviously a leader. Liz, as detailed in the profile, takes responsiblity for others, to a greater extent than she should, as Max does. This is one trait they both share.

In fact, the trait so abundant in Liz is what is so markedly absent in Tess. In "Destiny", Tess only focuses on what is beneficial to herself and her fellow aliens, not being concerned with the welfare of the humans who risk their lives to help the alien four. Had something unfortunate occurred to the three humans as a result of actions she had taken, I doubt she would have felt much responsibility or guilt. This is an unfortunate result of being reared by Nacedo. Perhaps as she integrates more with her human counterparts, this will begin to change.

That said, both profiles were extremely, extremely impressive. My compliments to both DocPaul and Karst for providing their take on the psyches of Roswell's main characters.

Max has just had a devastating emotional setback. He loves her intensely. He doesn't care about the home planet, skins or anything but her. He thought she felt the same way, and was being distant for a kind of noble reason. He sees "evidence" that she has been intimate with someone else. She lied. This on top of being hunted, tortured, and not really knowing who he is or what proactive moves he should make. Do you think his personality will change drastically? Will he just shut down emotionally altogether? Will he turn to Tess now? I admit I can't see him with her - Dreamer that I am. But I mean, nothing's there between them but her memories of a seemingly mythical past life. Max doesn't really seem like the sex-for-revenge-or-to-forget type. Will he become a "Maxcedo" version of a "fearless leader"? A teen Rambo?

And when she answers "So we go to the concert" he answers "No, we didn't"

Again, I don't think that Max would ever hurt Liz. Let's just say,...I could see him being as persistent as any of the nice boys I have dated.

I would like to see Max explore the psychological power he has over Liz. Perhaps it might build his character to step out of the crazyness of his feelings for her for a while and analyze the affect he has on her.

You notice that Michael and Isabel are able to twist other's wills for their own benifit, who's to say Max might not be unconsciously doing that to Liz.

I am saying this is because of how absolutely sure Liz sounded about her lack of desire to sleep with anyone at this stage of her life. As I can't see Max doing anything he thought Liz didn't want him to, something major must have gone down to change her mind.

Or maybe he just took off his shirt.

SM

BTW, I was very pleased with Liz's response in view of our current TV land immorality. I also appreciated the story line reinforcing that there are consequences to our decisions. . .that these decisions are important.

quote:Originally posted by Sublime Muffin:

Again, I don't think that Max would ever hurt Liz. Let's just say,...I could see him being as persistent as any of the nice boys I have dated.

I would like to see Max explore the psychological power he has over Liz. Perhaps it might build his character to step out of the crazyness of his feelings for her for a while and analyze the affect he has on her.

You notice that Michael and Isabel are able to twist other's wills for their own benifit, who's to say Max might not be unconsciously doing that to Liz.

I am saying this is because of how absolutely sure Liz sounded about her lack of desire to sleep with anyone at this stage of her life. As I can't see Max doing anything he thought Liz didn't want him to, something major must have gone down to change her mind.

Or maybe he just took off his shirt.

SM

Well, I definitely didn't see Max's not taking no for an answer as an indication of rape. Stalker mentality, maybe, but not rape.

As for Liz's response to the "we made love" thing...I just think that her shock was because she has no perspective about her relationship with Max and just how much of her life and herself she's given over to this relationship. Liz sees herself as this mature, together teenager who has goals and ambitions, not somebody who's going to screw all that up by being impulsive. And Liz is mature, but when it comes to Max she is extremely impulsive. And I see the lack of insight about that impulsivity being a developmental issue. She's a teenager. Most teenagers (and heck, a lot of adults) don't recognize the immaturity of their actions until much later in life. All those other kids may be screwed up, may be plagued by the dreaded peer pressure, but not me. I think hearing it from FMax, somebody older than her, just brought the reality of what having sex that young would mean to the forefront.

Well, I definitely didn't see Max's not taking no for an answer as an indication of rape. Stalker mentality, maybe, but not rape.

As for Liz's response to the "we made love" thing...I just think that her shock was because she has no perspective about her relationship with Max and just how much of her life and herself she's given over to this relationship. Liz sees herself as this mature, together teenager who has goals and ambitions, not somebody who's going to screw all that up by being impulsive. And Liz is mature, but when it comes to Max she is extremely impulsive. And I see the lack of insight about that impulsivity being a developmental issue. She's a teenager. Most teenagers (and heck, a lot of adults) don't recognize the immaturity of their actions until much later in life. All those other kids may be screwed up, may be plagued by the dreaded peer pressure, but not me. I think hearing it from FMax, somebody older than her, just brought the reality of what having sex that young would mean to the forefront.

Ender,
Thanks for the post. I agree. You stated your position very well. Curious - what's the meaning of your screen name?

BTW, I was very pleased with Liz's response in view of our current TV land immorality. I also appreciated the story line reinforcing that there are consequences to our decisions. . .that these decisions are important.

As to Max not taking no for an answer, I agree that he was referring to the Gomez concert. And as for Liz's reaction to hearing that she and Max made love that night, my only thought through that whole scene was "me thinkst ye protest too much". I have no doubt that she would have been a willing partner, especially after seeing him without his shirt on. I'm sure she would have been curious as to what the ahh, bottom half looked like. Plus as she later admitted to FMax, he's the love of her life, everyone else is second best. Although I did find it a little surprising that Max was walking around with a condom in his pocket, especially since by all accounts Max is still a virgin.

Taffy

Great work DocPaul and Karst and all the other posters!

I don't think Max would have forced Liz or that Liz would have needed much persuasion to forget about the concert. If Max did try to persuade her, which is doubtful, considering the fact that she's the one who wanted to elope at nineteen.
But, to conclude, I will admit that Liz eloping at 19 doesn't sound like her. Although, {Sorry, I just keep going back and forth} she said that when Max healed her, she changed. Maybe when they got even closer, she changed even more.

Alright, that's more than enough for me.

RajiQ

I disagree with the general perception that Future Max's comment "I didn't take no for an answer", was indicative of forced sex, rape, or seducing Liz in a manner other than which she desired. It's being taken too literally; I believe Jason Katims's intent was simply to express that Max wasn't going to give up on Liz, despite her resisting him. "I didn't take no for an answer" referred directly to the Gomez concert; Liz refused, but Max arrived at her window to pick her up regardless. Future Max's comment simultaneously, though indirectly, referenced their entire situation; Max not giving up on their relationship, despite whatever protestations Liz made.

Liz's reaction at learning they were to make love on the night of Gomez can be easily explained - how would you feel, knowing that the one person you had been resisting for months is the same person you would be making love to in just a few days? Not only is Future Max informing her that she and Max continue their relationship, he's suddenly telling her that they consummate it. Even if she is in love with Max, the news that they were to make love that very week had to be extremely shocking, to say the least.

quote:
FUTURE MAX: You're supposed to be breaking up with him, not kissing him.

LIZ: You...you kissed me. I mean...you know, he kissed me.

FUTURE MAX: You're only making me love you more.

LIZ: I just said no to Gomez.

FUTURE MAX: You said no the last time, too. I didn't take no for an answer.

LIZ: So we went to the concert.

FUTURE MAX: No. The night of Gomez I came to your room. That's the night that things between us were cemented.

LIZ: Cemented. So when you say cemented, you...

FUTURE MAX: We made love.

LIZ: No, no, we...we didn't.

FUTURE MAX: Liz...

LIZ: No, I have no intention of making love to you or...or anyone else at this particular stage of my life.

FUTURE MAX: I beg to differ.

LIZ: No. Making love to you is the farthest thing from my mind. I...I don't even have protection.

FUTURE MAX: I did.

LIZ: Oh, that's great. There you are, Max the Saint, just walking around with a condom in his back pocket. I...I...I don't even care what happened in your reality. I am not making love to you or anyone until I am ready, and I am just not ready.

FUTURE MAX: Liz, I am telling you what happened, and we have to change that. We have to. And so far, we've failed. Liz, it's not just Max that's the problem here. You are. You are not letting yourself change. Now you have to do something...before it's too late.

End of scene.

I think some of us, myself included, were getting a bit confused. It seems Max didn't take no for the concert, and intended to persuade Liz to come to the concert anyway. Somehow trying to persuade Liz to go to a concert ended up in the "cementing."

Things are a bit mixed up and the transition in the thoughts could be done better. F Max might even mean "I came to your room and persuaded you to go." He's moving pretty fast from not taking no as Liz's answer to his invitation, to the "cementing." A clear transition such as "instead" or "afterwards" would have been nice.

It's the name of a character from a series of books by Orson Scott Card. The first one is Ender's Game. It's a great book if you haven't read it.

Of course we all know he would never do anything to hurt Liz, (although I disagree that seduction is beyond him.) but I couldn't help but be curious what exactly he meant. And my guess is this was put there to make us wonder about our Max, and about whether he is as nicey nice as we all think he is. (One scenario could be that he thinks on what FM says to Liz and wonders about what he was feeling himself)

I feel we might be talked out on this subject for now. I think I am. What did everyone think of "Harvest?" The only interesting developements in the psych realm for me were betwixt Maria and Michael and Isabel and Nickolas. Maria and Michael make a great team, it's like they enjoy argueing. They seemed to enjoy argueing with Courtney too. It's almost as if Maria's jibes at Coutney had this hidden camraderie in them. She did seem a little too mad when Michael saved Courtney's skin, however.

SM

I can go for the idea of subtext. The phrase F Max used is normally used in more serious contexts, and is a bit odd there. And the point of subtext is that it is limited, and isn't main text.

I also think it's time to start moving forward again. But I think Harvest had some really interesting stuff.

Part of it goes back to the earlier episodes. I see a lot of continuity, despite some complaints to the contrary. The psych stuff seems pretty well developed to me. And the episodes are sometimes separated by weeks, show time, so they can't always nail down every tiny loose end.

Anyway, the first three eps were about two related themes: Max's role as leader, and the trio's inner dynamics. (If you want to classify this as one theme, I won't quibble.) SAB dealt mostly with Michael, with a lot of Max because their relationship dominated. The situation was reversed in AN, with Max dominating, but a lot of Michael. In both, Isabel had a significant but clearly secondary role as part onlooker, part helpless victim in the middle. Finally, to make up for the two eps dealing with Max and Michael, Isabel got her own episode about how she fits in things. And there was a bit of clean up with Max - he starts off ordering the two around, even telling Iz to break off with Grant; but he ends up recognizing she was right to use her own judgment and leave the post he gave her when something new came up (the big vision of Tess, planted by Courtney or not).

SO47 addressed Michael's longstanding distrust of humans. All the podsters have it, but his experiences with Hank gave him a severe version of the problem. As everyone knows, it ends with the first step back to a M/M reconciliation. (Note: I said first step. I didn't say reconciliation, pure and simple.)

This will probably upset Dreamers, but EOTW seemed to me to be designed to put M/L on the back burner for now. They had been in the background, and not too far back. EOTW seems to partly designed to create new story lines for M/L (Max finding out what really went down, etc.). But if Harvest is a clue, we'll be getting short isolated scenes between M/L for a while, and other events will take front stage.

I also noted in EOTW that Michael didn't argue about being wrong. Before, Maria had to drag it out of it. This time, he seemed pretty willing that he needed to mend some fences. Compared to his old fights with Max, he showed amazing restraint with Alex. Michael hasn't finished growing and evolving, but he is more willing to admit he has to. That's always the first and most important step to a change.

Finally, to Harvest. One thing I noted was that Michael automatically said Max would want to do nothing. He had always been ready to start yelling immediately about needing to do something. He seemed pretty unhappy of course, but was at least holding off on a direct conflict with Max instead of doing a preemptive strike. I don't think it was out of sympathy - I think he has no idea yet about Liz, Max, Tess and Kyle. I especially like the way he reacted when Max agreed with him about watching Courtney. Max is under stress, but I think his decision was reached despite the stress (and his desire to withdraw), not because of it. I think we may be seeing a more cooperative Ma/Mi relationship here.

Michael and Maria are much like their old selves, except I felt less of an edge, less real tension that bordered on animosity. Maria seems to really be getting a feel for Michael. I mentioned in an earlier post that dysfunctional relationships take two dysfunctional people. Michael still has trouble getting it, but as Maria gets a better and better grasp on Michael's quirky thinking, she'll be able to deal with him better. Especially since he seems more willing to accept her input than before. And Maria showed early own that she is more confident about giving it. I won't predict a lot of eraser room any time soon, but I think we should see some interesting, non-distressful M/M scenes.

Liz is still a question mark. The true story hasn't come out yet, at least to Max, so we don't yet have a stable situation to analyze. One thing I noted is that Max gave her a flat order for the first time, when he said she was coming along. (Other than maybe telling her to be safe.) It's also the first time he's expected anyone besides the podsters or Nasedo to jump to it. Liz both seems to have fallen because of his unhappiness, so that he no longer hangs on her whims; yet she is brought into the circle. But she didn't exactly swear allegiance to fearless leader, and the orders began when she made the biggest show of wanting out of the danger. It might be another spiteful gesture, like his suggestion she had leaked news of Whitaker's death (Max must have known her absence would get noticed). Liz said she wanted out of the danger, so Max makes sure she's in. Or it could be Max's controlling nature (in its new, exagerated form) is stepping in, since he feels she will no longer cooperate voluntarily. (True, he had been very patient. But he obviously expected eventual success.) It's probably something of both, and other things I don't see right now.

Final note. It might be Max's problems with Liz did help lead to the cooperative attitude towards Michael. If Max is wondering whether he really understands things as clearly as he thought, he would be more willing to listen, to Michael and others. That might not be a bad lesson to learn, though a bitter one, since cooperating with Michael turned out to be for the best. And Max's tendency to hope trouble disappears has never worked. It just seemed to for a while. But there is the possiblity that Max, at the moment, was too broken to argue, or even think about too many subjects at once.

Sorry. Another of my insomniac posts. It's nearly 4:00 a.m. here.

Dianne Evans doesn't know what is going on in her daughter's life, so how can she help her cope with it? The Vilandra Project appears to by psychological warfare aimed at Isabel, and her growing disconnection from her mother is one of the things that leaves her vulnerable. (Grrr... Max shouldn't have prevented her from telling! )

1. What did everyone think of Max's angry questioning of Liz on that dark street. Do you really think she was lying when she said he was scaring her? He would have definately scared me, whatever my history with him would have been.

2. What do you think Max meant by "cemented" in TEOTW.

Cheers,

SM

2. What do you think Max meant by "cemented" in TEOTW.

1. Not really; I think she knows that Max would never hurt her. (She's probably right.)

2. They had sex. (Hence the condom.)

You answer your own question: his strength. Max will have to find within himself the fortitude to stand alone; not behind a tree, not leaning on or following Liz, not blindly playing the role of Leader. A leader leads, and others follow, because he leads well. He makes the right decisions, at the right time, and carries them out. Liz and Maria were good at this, first season.

SM

What's the difference between a bolt and a virgin?

Having "Done It", I think that Max & Liz would have been much more famiiar with each other, and Liz would no longer be keeping Max at arm's length. If Tess was peeved before, she would have been in open revolt at this development. Revolted, and departed; because there's no place for her here.

SM

My take on what FMax ment by "cemented" was that by making love (not just sex) they confirmed or reconfirmed that they truely need each other both emotionally and physically. That neither ever wanted to go back, aftwerwards.
I was thinking more of the emotional connection instead of pscychic. I didn't see any hints between FMax and FLiz in the beginng about a pscychic connection, although we didn't see FLiz much, I would think there would be "something" in those beginning scenes to clue us in?
Although, based on personal experience as a "long time (but not "old")married lady, long time spouses do seem to be able to "read" their mates minds. So maybe FMax and FLiz did(do?)develop an heighten ability to do this?

Taffy

For now...I'm curious. We've discussed Michael and Max's relationship..but with what's been happening with Isabel...how do you see things with Max and Isabel. He's still the loving brother, as shown by the birthday party he gave her in Surprise. But they were so close once. Only had the one fight. What happens now?

I think Max is going to be feeling betrayed by Isabel and it's going to cause a rift. More because she's not being honest with him <read lying> Than anything else. Any takers??

Where's Alex?

Future-Max said they are stronger as a group. Well, they are all in Roswell, Tess hasn't left, but how are they a group?

Isabel deals with the Vilandra past by herself. Michael investigates Courtney, then chooses to trust her at least enough to accept her help. Max makes decisions without consulting anyone, when he can stop thinking about Liz long enough. Liz hasn't told anyone the truth about what happened. Tess is still an outsider to the rest, but maybe their growing isolation from each other will make her situation seem better by comparison.

Isabel always played an important role in holding the group together, especially Max&Michael. She can't play that role while struggling with her own demons by herself. She needs help before she can help the others- Alex is the one she knows will hear her out, non-judgementally, and help her deal with her past.

When I clicked 'reply to post' all I meant to post was the first sentence. I guess this thread really makes me think. There is so much to talk about.

When I clicked 'reply to post' all I meant to post was the first sentence. I guess this thread really makes me think. There is so much to talk about.

Yes, and the podsters need to do some talking. For that matter, if some of the humans started chatting, things might start progressing. Why hasn't Liz talked to Maria, for example: she spilled the beans on Max to begin with!
<Joke mode ON>
A woman who doesn't talk. We knew she was special!
<Joke mode OFF>

I'm not a psychologist, but I'd think all of the Aliens have enormous mental trauma to deal with. It has to catch up with them sooner or later.

I'm a fanfic writer, and I've found that writing traumatic situations is a lot easier than dealing with those issues afterwards. But Roswell has wonderful professional writers, they should be able to deal with them effectively. They have been dealt with occasionally (Valenti talking to Michael in S&K, for example). I think we have just begun to see the effect all this, plus the revelations, are having on Isabel, but she has definitely not been behaving as usual the last two episodes.

How would Max, Michael and Isabel even come to the cognition that they were aliens? Even if they realized that they were "different," why would they be so quick to label themselves "aliens?" Clearly, they unfailingly believed it,though, since in Pilot, Max admits, after making the not of this earth joke, that he is one. How is he so sure?

The thing is, they already HAVE a psychic connection. This connection intensified to a great degree in "Sexual Healing" to the point where she saw the crash that brought him to earth. I don't think the consumation (if it happens)of this particular relationship will remain completely in the realm of human experience.

(Besides, you know the writers we are dealing with are quite the showmen.)

Anyway, I'm bumping this up for the "Dupes" that looks like a mind-bender. I can'tr wait.

Cheerio,

SM

SM

It's too bad Max can't really use those therapy sessions the way they're meant to be used becaue he really needs to talk to somebody. He's withdrawn, obviously still not sleeping well, and his emotions are all over the place. His rather violent reaction to the argument with Isabel/Lonnie was disturbing. He obviously feels isolated from everybody. He still doesn't feel really comfortable with Tess, Liz has betrayed him, Michael and Iz seem to be siding against him. He definitely needs to talk to somebody.

Michael's pretty much Michael. No signs of a serious reaction to Courtney biting the dust.

Maria's still whining about the way Michael treats her but not setting any boundaries with him.

Isabel is so scared and racked with guilt. Hopefully she's going to open up soon since Lonnie confirmed the Vilandra betrayal. I think Lonnie hit on some of Isabel's feelings when she impersonated Isabel with Max, but she definitely left out Isabel's self-doubt and fear of losing Max.

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing what everybody thinks. And this page definitely needs to head to page 1.

I think Max is retreating into one half of his personality. Alien. The Leader. Cold. Trying to protect himself against the consequences of betrayal and loss. But by doing this, he is pushing the others away- losing them. (Also, by pushing away his human side, he is losing half his capability for judgement, which often makes him a lousy leader anyways.) He is effectively half a person right now.

Isabel doesn't know that her brother knows about Vilandra. Her father will probably ask her how the play is going and about joint therapy sessions. Running is a good short-term way to cope- exercise does wonders for stress- but it doesn't resolve anything. Although if you are constantly fighting for your life getting in shape is a pretty good idea.

I absolutely completely loved last nights episode, btw.

It's too bad Max can't really use those therapy sessions the way they're meant to be used becaue he really needs to talk to somebody. He's withdrawn, obviously still not sleeping well, and his emotions are all over the place. His rather violent reaction to the argument with Isabel/Lonnie was disturbing. He obviously feels isolated from everybody. He still doesn't feel really comfortable with Tess, Liz has betrayed him, Michael and Iz seem to be siding against him. He definitely needs to talk to somebody.

I think JB as Max is portraying him well as being under tremendous stress but that he's also exhibiting signs of depression. Most of the time it's very subtle...in the way he breaths, (deep breaths or almost like he's having trouble breathing - anxiety?), the hurt look in his eyes - almost like he's on the verge of tears (scene in classroom with Liz and talking to Lonnie about Vilandra) and the general sadness of his demeanor. And with the coldness he showed towards Liz it's like he's trying to shut down - not take anymore in.

I'd say psychologically, he's past the shock stage. The world is closing in on him, and the pain and helplessness of it all is setting in - hence the depression, resulting in out of character behavior, etc. He looks to me like he's not going to be able to take much more - like he's about to have a nervous beakdown or going to blow from the pressure.

His reaction with Lonnie/Iz was probably what you might expect from someone going through that, but I'd welcome Doc and Karst's opinions.

I thought a few things were happening there:

1. She may have hit a nerve with him by calling him selfish (he may have some residual guilt about the original risk he put the group at) - ie, she honed right in on his own self-doubt.

2. She probably really hurt his feelings just by the level of "meanness" with which she was talking to him. Max adores his sister and has always been close, so this must have really put him in the twilight zone.

3. He was upset to begin with - and things have been building (hence the confrontational "shut up") but probably would have settled down a bit and taken the old Max approach if she hadn't bean so nasty. (I'm no doing the "you made me do it" excuse here - ) just noticing that the whole confrontation really escalated with the jabs from Lonnie.

4. Besides being upset at Iz, and besides her goading him, I think Lonnie/Iz may have been the recipient of a little misdirected anger. By this I mean that if Max didn't have Michael on his back, the pressure about NY, the situation with Liz, he might not have been so angry. He may have been taking a little of that out on her. Did anyone else think he was going to hit her?

I also thought that it was a bad decision for Max to go to NY with the dupes. We know it wasn't thought out, but rather a spiteful decision made in the heat of the moment. Even more, I suspect his true reasons for going is that it's a desperate attempt to run away.

As for the rest, I think they are spun too. They are all so quiet now. Michael seems to have had the wind taken out of his sails with the attitude. He's not saying too much. In particular, I noticed how Tess and Michael seemed quite withdrawn - kind of spaced out with the revelation of the dupes. Of course Michael has the renegade skins thing on his mind too. We also know that Iz is tormented and ashamed of her past as Vilandra. She's having a hard time facing it.

Liz is clearly alientated from the group as well with her secret and this is why she and Maria are having trouble communicating. I was glad to see her get mad though. Sometimes that's what it takes to fire up the brain.

I think they are all showing signs of being overwhelmed by the circumstances, but that it's probably normal given the situation.

Maria seems the least affected - I loved her and Brody. What a sweet, adorable character. I actually think the show needed that because it's getting a desperate, depressing feel to it, which is probably the intention of the writers.

Thanks for your great perspectives!!!!!

Max is on the verge of a serious breakdown. But part of the problem is he doesn't seem to realize how he is pushing people away from him, even has he tries harder to pull them towards him.

Max is very controlling, though not selfish (generally). He really feels disaster will happen if he loses control, and his efforts to control everything are to everyone's benefit, in his eyes. But the result is that even his questions about Vilandra become more demands that knowledge be shared, rather than attempts to sympathize with Isabel. Max doesn't seem to fully realize how upset Isabel is. Or else he is communicating that badly. Even when Iz says "One more mile," to Max in the jeep, he is impatient and cuts her off. Max didn't take a very sympathetic line of questioning there. I'm sure Max (as he sees it) is desperately trying to find out important information that may be necessary to protect them, but the result is to drive Isabel away and make his own goal of finding out harder to achieve.

The problems with Michael may go back to the pilot. From the start, Michael has always been faster than Max to cry danger. And he has usually been right. But facing up to their danger has been especially hard for Max, more than it was for Michael and Isabel, I think.

The original set up was sort of as follows: Michael hated and feared humans, and had nothing to do with them. (Except he was pretty smooth with the phlebotomist in Blood Brothers, and had no qualms about the physical stuff with Maria. It was the relationship stuff that bothered him - when she started wanting to know what he was doing after school, on weekends. So he may have had some, er, superficial relationships we haven't heard about. Anyway. . . )Isabel could act out her fantasies of being normal, though she never revealed their secret. Max had more problems. He was happy with the idea of being human, but as he told Topolsky, he was the kid behind the tree watching the other kids play. He couldn't act out his fantasies of being human. He had his fantasies about Liz Parker, but even being her lab partner, he didn't really know her. She was incredulous that he would be staring at her in the pilot. If he had been more like Isabel, he'd already have been dating her. More like Michael, then they'd have hated each other and kept apart. Out of the unhappy trio, Max was probably the most frustrated - he had neither Iz's ability to act out her fantasies, not Michael's drive to make contact with others and eventually go home.

So, when Max saved Liz in the pilot, he accidentally entered into the relationship he had only fantasized about before. And he rather enjoyed it, to put it mildly. The lure of being human was pretty powerful. But the forces of evil started circling immediately. And Michael at the same time became the voice of doom. Michael said (in Ask Not?) that he was sure Max listened to him in their former lives, but actually Max listened to him as recently as the pilot and Morning After. He didn't reject Michael's ideas out of hand. I think Iz was actually more vocal about opposing Michael's ideas. Since the pilot, Max/Michael have been a progression of Max retreating ever deeper into denial, at ever greater cost after each new danger is revealed; while Michael follows after trying to shake him to his senses.

After Topolksy, Max thought things were better. Then Topolsky returned, with the news things were even worse than they thought. Then Pierce revealed in WR how great the danger to the humans really was. Then the skins turned out to be real, and the war wasn't over. At least for the podsters.

Max has not said anything yet about maybe the danger is really over this time, but he seems to be too stunned to think of that. He is also aware of how little he knows - he doesn't know what the granilith is; he didn't know about Vilandra; he is unsure now about trusting Michael. The unknowns have drawn even closer, affecting even his relationships with Isabel and Michael.

On top of that, he lost Liz (at least as far as he can tell). The danger has been unremitting and his resources have shrunk, and now his fantasies of being human have lost their main support.

Interesting. Of all our podsters, Tess is the one who remembers something of her prevous life. She has also been in training to be Max's wife for a long time. Might those include some training or skills in psychology and therapy? Possibly Tess is the only one of the podsters, even of all those "Who Know An Alien", who is equipped to deal with Max's problems. At least, she does tend to stick by him, and I don't think she would hurt him.

Of course, IF "Dr. Margolin", aka Tic-tac, can really be a psychotherapist, that'd be ideal.

Where's Tic-tac?

It's too bad Max can't really use those therapy sessions the way they're meant to be used becaue he really needs to talk to somebody. (...), Liz has betrayed him,(...)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to hearing what everybody thinks. And this page definitely needs to head to page 1.

What about Liz, anyway? She's been under major strain since the opening of TEOTW, and it's begining to show. Twice, she's practicaly begged Maria to make her spill the beans. Did you see the way she skipped over to the window when Max dropped by, just like old times? He gave her the knife back. Now Max, the love of her life, evidently hates her. This girl's got problems, too! And she's getting nowhere looking for someone to talk to. She's gonna blow!

Just to get it in print: 4+1, that we've been seeing so much. Podsters, plus Ava.

Max is definately going to be finding out the truth about Liz/Kyle and
FMax.thing eventually. It's just too much not to come out. Wondering how is most likely to be the one to tell? and under what circumstance would they tell?
1. Liz: she just can no longer keep this secret from him because she loves him too much and can't take the guilt anymore?
2. Maria: She can't stand to see what this is doing to them and spills the beans?
3. Kyle: Possibly the same reason as Maria's? He does still care for Liz and would want to see her happy.

Who would it most likely be and why?

Taffy

It seems to me that Max is moving forward with his healing phase. He is no longer in denial about his being the king and has come to terms with his relationship with Liz and Isabel. I'm sure that he will continue to confront obstacles just as we all do. However, he seems to be at much healthier stage. Karst, what is your take after seeing MITC?

I think (and I've read it here) that Liz's #1 concern is control. She believed Ava's word, "You're changed now." I think that is why she was scared to try to reach Max. The fact that she realizes that she has changed, also forces her to accept that she is not in control. That's why she's looking for signs in the mirror as well.

Secondly, I wonder if Max has any interal guilt for changing Liz? I am sure he didn't know what would happen, but what if something goes wrong with the change?

I am having problems accepting this "altered Liz" idea myself. I think that whatever is happening to Liz, she will have to change the way she precieves things if she's to keep it a secret. She'll have to be more careful than ever now.

Any ideas on how this would affect Kyle's personality as well?

I don't post much, but I would like to see your thoughts.

Max, internal guilt for changing her? From dead to alive? Probably not, and any side effects are just that; something to be dealt with, but acceptable.

As for Kyle, I think we've seen a change (to Buddhism) which will cover any other changes. I doubt that he has any special "powers", since he doesn't glow or flash, but OTOH he hasn't had occasion to. I doubt it, but there is a foundation for him to, IF the writers so decide.

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
Max, internal guilt for changing her? From dead to alive? Probably not, and any side effects are just that; something to be dealt with, but acceptable.

Well Reggie, I agree to a point, but maybe I should rephrase, I think Max feels responsible and perhaps remorseful that he changed Liz. Particularly if Liz isn't that pleased over this after effect. But given the option of changed Liz or dead Liz, he knows he did the right thing.
quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
As for Kyle, I think we've seen a change (to Buddhism) which will cover any other changes. I doubt that he has any special "powers", since he doesn't glow or flash, but OTOH he hasn't had occasion to. I doubt it, but there is a foundation for him to, IF the writers so decide.Okay, it took Liz from Sept 99 to Feb 00 before she got visions. That's 5 months, Kyle was shot and healed on May 14th, if he develops powers, then I'm giving him 5 months to do it in... This is Nov. No powers that we know of yet. Maybe what needs to happen is more alien interaction.

Taffy: If there is true love between Max and Liz, it has to be unconditional. That means Max has to want to come back to Liz on his own, even knowing that she slept with Kyle. He has to accept her and want her not because she is a virgin, but because she is the love of his life, the one that grounds him, that gives him balance, that loves him back, that accepts him as he is, and without whom he cannot simply survive because she is his soulmate. I think Max will find out from a flashback, after touching (probably) the four-picture strip Future Max and Liz touched, AFTER they are back together as a couple. Anything else wouldn't be the perfect, rare love those two have for each other.

His having Liz by his side will be the first step towards a much needed healing for him. Not only because she is his sounding board, but because he'll feel accepted and loved. Can't wait for that day!

Hi Ender.

It isn't always obvious. It tends to show up most for me in patterns. Like the way Max keeps saying they'll be safe if they pretend to be normal, and they aren't. Then Max does it again. And again. He doesn't seem to learn until the skins arrive and kill Nasedo that lying low won't work. Or he doesn't act until a crisis forces him to face up to the danger. WR makes him realize the FBI unit has to be faced head on. In SAB, he realizes Michael is right about the danger of the situation when Michael ends up in jail (albeit with a friendly jailor). Once could be a mistake, so many times make a pattern.

An alternative explanation could be that Max is extremely stupid, but he is too obviously intelligent for that one to fly.

And there are other odd moments. Like in Blind Date when Max talks about running away to a place where no one had heard about alien hunters (?) (or was it aliens?). It just kind of adds up to someone who wants to be human and forget everything alien and dangerous.

This isn't meant to be a moral verdict on Max. People go into denial over things lots smaller than the dangers Max faces. It's just an observation of what seems to be going on with Max, at least up to Meet the Dupes.

It's also interesting that Liz starts acting like this around the time she notices at the meeting in the UFO Center (in MTD) that she feels out of place. Not only is she not at the center of things, she feels she doesn't belong at all. So suddenly she's acting with Max as if nothing had happened, and making it obvious to Maria she's got a secret to spill, if pushed.

Max is definately going to be finding out the truth about Liz/Kyle and
FMax.thing eventually. It's just too much not to come out. Wondering how is most likely to be the one to tell? and under what circumstance would they tell?
1. Liz: she just can no longer keep this secret from him because she loves him too much and can't take the guilt anymore?
2. Maria: She can't stand to see what this is doing to them and spills the beans?
3. Kyle: Possibly the same reason as Maria's? He does still care for Liz and would want to see her happy.

Who would it most likely be and why?

Taffy

I'm hoping MITC will be a real turning point. Partly because if Max doesn't start to get better, he does face a melt down. Partly because miserable dysfunctional Max is getting a little tiresom. Time for a new narrative twist, aside from the psychology.

Also, I really noticed how Max reacted to the chance to go home. It seemed he'd never believed it to really be feasible. Not like Michael, who is really focused on it. Max may be realizing that he might have a viable alternative to living as a pretend human - he could have a kingdom if he manages to win it. It will be interesting to see if the lure of power has an effect on Max. He certainly jumped at the chance to use the mommogram to make himself leader of the podsters, and even decide whether they vote on things or not.

Meeting Lonnie and Rath seems to have made him at least appreciate Isabel more. Hopefully there is some appreciation for Michael in the works.

As for lessons, if a parent found their kid playing with the neighbor's piano, but had never suspected that the kid was musical, what happens? The parent takes the kid to piano lessons. (The kid will probably be frightened at first.) IF the kid truly is musical, great! (It doesn't mean the kid is Changed, either.) If it turns out that the kid isn't particularly musical, or has talent with a different instrument, then fine: lessons on the violin (say), or we drop the idea.

I couldn't have said it better myself. Not to mention the fact that in Liz's eyes now HE is the one hanging around and taking care of another person. If you think Max has pressure imagine having to hold a secret that could mean to end the of world. Sure Max hasn't really gone head over heals in love with Tess but could you imagine in Liz's eyes having to be the one who has to deal with the man she loves being with someone else...(not to mention the fact SHE never so much as kissed Kyle ). Even though she knows ahe partially contributed to them being separated, it must hurt a LOT.

quote:Not only is she not at the center of things, she feels she doesn't belong at all. So suddenly she's acting with Max as if nothing had happened, and making it obvious to Maria she's got a secret to spill, if pushed. --Karst

Yup. I agree with that as well, although that shows good leadership skills from Liz's part its probably not helping out much. And it makes me wonder if they are in fact so "connected" then if Liz is feeling miserable wouldn't it inversly affect Max?!? And I can imagine even after helping the podesters to save Max, she probably feels very confussed as to her belonging anywhere. Wonder if she's confussed as to her role...

And perhaps when they get passed "alien" powers all they really do is lift up the evolution genes a bit to the point where their corresponding powers would peak next. SO maybe Liz was already a bit more "evolved" sort to speak than Kyle was, so all Kyle got was the religious bit. Perhaps this will all tie in to the grenalith...

AND DEFINATELY AGREE WITH THIS QUOTE!
quote:I think Max is retreating into one half of his personality. Alien. The Leader. Cold. Trying to protect himself against the consequences of betrayal and loss. But by doing this, he is pushing the others away- losing them. (Also, by pushing away his human side, he is losing half his capability for judgement, which often makes him a lousy leader anyways.) He is effectively half a person right now.--ALEX_EVANS

I agree 1010% percent you nailed Max's #1 problem, although I strongly disagree he is a lousy leader. I think if they all worked together and he helped be the head to keep them united if they help him aim the power correctly he'd be an excellent leader. He did afterall even under incredible pressure decide to decline the deal and he lied about not know ing about the grenaith...maybe in the back of his mind he already has everything sorted out and liz just happened to be a key player in the plan...

Very interesting observations this thread belongs on top..up it goes

Of course, Karst is right about the pattern of Max's denial. The only way to know for sure if Max is really ready to deal with the alien stuff is to see how he reacts in the next few episodes. Even if the summit caused him to realize how real his position on the alien home world is, that doesn't necessarily mean he's gonna automatically give up his fantasy of living out a human life on Earth with Liz. Most real emotional growth doesn't happen in a straight path, or even on a gradual slope. It's usually a kind of arc with lots of peaks and valleys.

And I've got to say I was pretty impressed with how supportive Tess was with Max, even when he brought up Liz.

I'm hoping that MITC is a real turning point for Max. I was especially interested in the way he reacted to the offer to go home. It was as if he looked for the first time on the possibility as something actually attainable. Michael had always been the one focused on making contact and getting home. Max has seemed tempted by his life on earth, but maybe the problem was more that he didn't believe he had a real alternative to life on earth.

If Max is reorienting his life goals more towards his alien home world, that would remove a lot of the force behind his escape from reality with Liz. It might also help align him more with Michael. Their relationship is starting to look very pathological.

Something has helped reconcile Max and Iz. Lonnie and Rath did make a big impression on him. I'm hoping the future might hold some degree of reconciliation with Michael as well. Max could use all the friends he can get right now.

DocPaul has suggested that Max might be able to sympathize a lot with Iz/Vilandra, since he also is in the position of hearing how he caused such problems, hurt, and destruction in his previous life (although for different reasons, of course).

As for Max learning the truth, I suspect Maria will accidentally say too much, and then realize she might as well spill everything. Maria isn't assertive enough, at least with regards to Liz and Max, to intentionally set herself up as referee for their relationship. Kyle I think is really ambivalent about being involved with this alien stuff, and would probably avoid getting farther in. He'd probably tell Max to talk to Liz. Liz - might tell. She does miss being part of the group. Being with Max even put her kind of at the center of the group, or at least in the inner circle (as when she was the only human in the pod chamber in Destiny). But she has held out so far, except for needing to talk to Maria. I guess my last opinion on this subject (for now) is that it is kind of race between Maria and Liz to see who lets something slip to Max first. (Max doesn't seem very curious as to how Liz knows so much about the granilith.) Maria might let something slip about Kyle, or Liz and Kyle. Liz might let more slip about the granilith. And then the rest comes out.

There's another factor, don't forget: Tess. Someone has speculated that she's a "Keeper of The Granolyth", or something. She did a nice double-take when Max told her what Liz had said, in MitC. Suppose Tess wants to know how Liz knows about The Granolyth? Liz has told both Max and Tess too many lame excuses, and too many "I can't tell you"s, for there not to be something behind it. Tess may feel she needs to know what. And Liz may think that it wouldn't hurt for Tess to know about Future Max.

As for Max finding out, I'll repeat what I said somewhere else: He'll go back to her without knowing what she did or didn't do! It wouldn't be the great, unconditional love it is otherwise! He'll take her back, he'll forgive her and, afterwards, he'll get a flash and all explanations, recriminations, don't-do-that-to-me-ever-agains will come then. My bet is in Max touching the 4 picture strip from Wallmart. Somebody else said the Gomez concert tickets... or touching Kyle's door! Who knows?

I was very happy to see that MITC was a turning point for Max. He finally came to some internal reconcilliation regarding Is and Liz. He came to terms with his heart - his unconditional love for them. Forgiveness is a process, and I think the story line was true to human dynamics. Also, Max chose not to be in denial re his leadership role at the summit. He gathered the information and made a decision of "action." The past Max usually avoided "action". His motto was always "lay low" or "stay behind the tree". I love the way JB brought it all together through Max. You could see the relaxation in Max's face at the end. Even Max's posture had more of a sense of authority in the final scenes.

During the past year, Max has always turned to Liz for answers. When ever a crisis occurs, his first thought has always been to rely on Liz for answers. At the summit, he considered her imput re the big "G", but it was his decision to not give it up. I think that shows some growth on his part as well. In the past, Max has pretty well let Is and Liz lead his decisions. In the beginning, it seems as if Max even allowed Is to fairly well control his relationship with Liz. Do you guys see it the same way?

You're right. Max was more democratic and less controlling at the start. Particularly in the arguments over breaking into the sheriff's office and going to the dome, Iz was the tiebreaker between Max/Michael.

Incidentally, when I said in an earlier post that Max used to listen to Michael, I didn't mean he necessarily followed him. Just that he gave consideration to what Michael said.

Controlling Max was on stage by the time Max and Liz went to Riverdog. For example, Max didn't bother to tell either Iz or Michael about what they had found.

Pleasing Liz has been a major goal of Max's. Her opposition in season 1 to making contact with Tess/Nasedo (they still though Tess was the shapeshifter then) may have been the decisive factor holding Max & Co. back too long - until Nasedo kidnapped Liz in MTTM. In SAB, Liz's sudden comment on murder seemed to startle Max, and it was immediately after that that he laid down the law about not killing anyone. (And Nasedo wound up dead.)

Of course, there is the drawback that he is caught up in some big power struggle he doesn't understand yet. But that doesn't make the goal less alluring on its own, it just alters the cost/benefit analysis. And Max is dead if he doesn't fight anyway, so he might as well start looking at what the prize would be if he wins (i.e., survives). Especially if all the danger gets depressing, thinking fondly of being king of the world could be rather soothing. Or energizing.

But where does that leave Liz? All the show has shown us so far is that she is a human who now has been altered to some degree by his power. (This isn't the Liz Mythology thread, so I won't go too far into this, but I think this rules out the idea Liz was Max's alien love from a former life. Ava thought Liz was a changed human, and things seemed to work as she expected.) Now that Max seems to be getting resigned to the loss of Liz, would he go back? There is the old saying, once burned, twice wary. He's suffered a lot, and whatever Liz's reason, she'll always be associated with the feelings of pain. Dentists have the best intentions, but people still get negative feelings about them. With the lure of power, will Max be even less likely to go back to Liz?

I guess we have to wait and see about Liz's new talent(s) (we don't even know yet if there's more than one). Also there is the issue of taking Liz home to Momma, and whether Liz would like looking like an alien.

But all of Max's relationship with Liz has been based on the assumption they would live on earth and he would function as some sort of human with special powers. If Max reworks his concept of himself into being an alien king, living in a little house with a white picket fence with Liz Parker is not in the cards.

There is also Liz's statement to Maria that Max has to be with Tess. That might turn out to be a glitch, and Liz might remember that the world doesn't automatically end if Max isn't with Tess. But if Liz's memory is definitely off, there is no one to correct it. In that case, any reunion with Max would have to get around her belief (which Maria already knows) that it would lead to total destruction. If Max hears of that, it might make him even less inclined to go back to Liz.

The one thing that most specially bothered me about MITC was Liz's description of what Future Max wanted. I wanted to scream at the TV: that's wrong! He doesn't want Max with Tess, only that she stays around! And then I said, Oh... another obstacle for them to overcome!

If Max decides to go to his other planet, they would have to kill Max Evans, wouldn't they? The atmosphere is different and.. do they expect the masses to accept as King this person who has to walk around in a spacesuit, ugly as hell, with miriad weaknesses that they don't have? I don't think so. Maybe they'll wait until their time on Earth concludes normally and then they'll extract the essence to create the Once and Future King, yet again! That would certainly aid in his goal of having Liz by his side. On the other hand, if it is possible to go now, inasmuch as it hurts, they would have to separate because love or no love, Liz would not go. Simple. And he would, definitely.

Karst: I'm not sure but are you suggesting Nacero's death is directly attributable to Max not killing Brody?

But all of Max's relationship with Liz has been based on the assumption they would live on earth and he would function as some sort of human with special powers. If Max reworks his concept of himself into being an alien king, living in a little house with a white picket fence with Liz Parker is not in the cards.

Hi Karst,
Being the romantic that I am, I don't agree. Max and Liz's love is supernatural. It is not limited to enviromental circumstances. They actually complement each other in a way that completes them. . .empowers them to be greater as a couple than as individuals. Again, I know this comes from the romantic in me not the science. But it is the art of the world that makes life worth living. Science doesn't address the "art" of life. But the art is very real and has laws in itself. In this case, Max and Liz "complete" each other and need one another to be optimized.

My apologies. I should have said Skin and Bones, not Ask Not. (I've edited the post now.) In SAB, Liz makes her comment on killing people when coming down the stairs and then Max orders Nasedo there would be no killing. At that point, the discussion was primarily about Whitaker, since it wasn't until Ask Not that Michael finds out about the alien device. (Actually, I think Brody first appears in AN.)

If you go the the silverhandprint.com site and click on the Interviews link, there is a download where the character are talking about going back to the home planet. The interviewer specifically tells Max that Liz has stated that she WILL go with Max if he decides to return, although Max questions this. Since this is an official website of theWB, I think we are supposed to assume these interviews are the 'official' statements of the characters.

This adds a bit of a twist. Food for thought.

Max seems to me to have it under control deep, waaay deep down . I think there's more to it than the fact Tess wasn't around. Being the knight that he is, FMax could very well be doing this to save Liz from dieing?!? Maybe I'm just a dreamer, LOL.

Karst, can you please explain what you mean about Liz's opposition to them making contact with Nasado? Liz didn't even know about Nasado until TL&V or maybe Crazy, I don't remember her voicing any opposition to them finding Nasado, just that Nasado scared her. In BD, Max stated to Michael that he was unsure about finding Nasado, that he might be dangerous. I think Max reached this conclusion after what Hubble told him in Convention. In BD even Isabel expressed her doubts to Michael about finding Nasado. So I don't think Liz held them back at all.

Also, I think Max trust and values Liz's opinions because he knows she's smart and thinks things through. I think he does want to please her but he doesn't always agree with her--he disagreed with her in Crazy about meeting Topolsky.

ok, that was bad--but true.
Just letting you know that I think you guys are brilliant & giving this thread a boost.

OTR31

I have been trying to work on the Max profile rewrite and must confess to a lack of time. The holiday season is really busy for me, and I find myself not coming to the forum very often anymore. Usually I just check Roswell 2 and my PM's and leave.

I must admit to staying away from the forum do to a general air of unhappiness and discontent. I love Roswell and watch it for the story, the story that they tell me, not the story I want to see or the story I would write. So with this mentality I find that I must accept a lot of twists in the road that I wouldn't have put in one of my stories, but then I am not telling this story.

Anyway the general unhappiness and constant campaigns, bashing, and shipper wars has left a bad taste in my mouth. It is the fear that being too close to this fandom is making me lose my interest in the show, or even jading my views. I really need a nice clean and happy mental attitude to function. So I have stepped back, and tried to remember when Roswell was just something I watched on Monday's with my kids. Something I enjoy. I would have my own negative vibes to rub off on others, or to have it wreck my perspective.

For this reason I have been slow in editing the profiles and sending them to Karst for reposting. I am sorry for those who have been waiting so patiently; I will try to get them done while I am in LA next few weeks. I can't promise anything, except to say that I will be watching Roswell.

Karst and I have also wondered about the length of the thread and starting a new page. We were waiting for the Max rewrite. Deep sigh. Let me contact a moderator and see what they suggest.

Doc

If you have special insight or a comment about Max's personality and changes that have occurred that you would like me to include or touch upon in the profile, please PM because I may not get back here immediately.

Either way, please continue your discussion and remember to be nice to each other's opinion, and tell us what you think.

Doc

Anyway the general unhappiness and constant campaigns, bashing, and shipper wars has left a bad taste in my mouth. It is the fear that being too close to this fandom is making me lose my interest in the show. So I have stepped back, and tried to remember when Roswell was just something I watched on Monday's with my kids. Something I enjoy.

Doc

I'm sorry to hear this. I've alway come to this thread and would be very upset to hear another wonderful fan would consider leaving, what I consider a great thread & program.

I for one only go to the few threads that I know will be respectful. Please reconsider, you would be greatly missed.

Unfortunately, the postive people are the first to leave the board. Certainly, you have to do what you need to do. All this "fan stuff" is to bring joy to our lives. . .not a struggle. This particular thread has always been a haven for me. . .away from all the things that you mentioned. So, I would REALLY miss it. Thank you for all the work that you've contributed. Perhaps, after stepping back. . .the joy will return and you'll once again be inspired to share. (my fingers are crossed)

[/QUOTE]...For this reason I have been slow in editing the profiles and sending them to Karst for reposting. I am sorry for those who have been waiting so patiently; I will try to get them done while I am in LA next few weeks. I can't promise anything, except to say that I will be watching Roswell.)[/QUOTE]

I'll be looking & hoping. . .Have a nice trip!

bump (hee.hee.)