Welcome to the

ROSWELL VIRTUAL MUSEUM, ARCHIVES, and GALLERIES

This is a 'brand new museum' for the new message boards (thank you Squanto, et al). Come on in. Browse. Relax. Chat. The new season should provide a wealth of topics to in various disciplines: astronomy; art; history; mythology; literature; philosophy; the sciences and medicine. What ever your inquiring mind wants to know.

The great thing about the virtual Roswell Archives is that our walls are infinite. The parts of the universe can be brought to you, or you can follow a 'link' to the universe. Before the museum could 're-open', many wonderful posts about cadmium, isotopes, radiation, cyclotrons, etc, have been posted. More than just pointing out a sign or symbol or reference, this is the place to understand the meaning, or the historical or mythological contexts.

Since Behr got really buff over the summer, be advised that, until further notice, and for your own protection, Behr will not be wandering around here. He'll be well taken care of at the Warner Brothers reservation. So don't ask to pet, feed, drool. Behr will not be strolling through here. The virtual museum's botanical gardens and game reservation is closed/off-limits. But you may bring all the drool pictures you want. Behr and Fehr if you like.

I will be back , hopefully before the end of the week, to revise and add photos to the introduction. So be sure to check back here for the revised version of the introduction; photos; coming attractions; special rooms; fun spots; the help desk; archives of past 'exhibitions' (ie, reposts, hopefully, by PIEFACE, AMX, pictures by REDHAWK, SHAPESHIFTER, and patrons of the 'old' museum such as JENLEV and WOLFLADY and other contributers I will acknowledge later); and favorite links will return.

The first room to open in this new museum is the LOST CIVILIZATIONS GALLERY, featuring the ETRUSCAN room. I think you will find it fascinating.

This is no longer my thread. I just opened the door. Open 24/7. You can even bring food in here. Don't leave a mess though. You have such varied backgrounds and education and experiences, so feel free to add your own gallery if it is of relevance to Roswell and can contribute to our enjoyment. I love to learn as well as be entertained and, most of all, have fun doing it. Have fun!

Rosta

If it were my task to research the history and mythology texts to find a particular civilization to serve as a template for an alien society, or an advanced human society, perhaps with alien origins, I would take a close look at the ETRUSCANS and also, perhaps, the MINOANS. If I needed an ancient writing system that appeared familiar, but defied translation, I would select the ETRUSCAN alphabet.

If I wanted to chronicle the rise and fall of an advanced, yet mysterious, civilization, I would select the Etruscans to serve as a model for the social, political, artistic, religious and commercial development of this civilization.

The following are my main references. Follow the other links for references.

**THE MYSTERIOUS ETRUSCANS alien: glow: http://pages.ancientsites.com/~Camitlnas_Tullius/index.html
http://www.ualberta.ca/~csmackay/CLASS_365/Etruscans.html
http://cyberschool.4j.lane.edu/~wallace/artline/maintextEtruscan.htm (many links)

With the defeat of the Etruscans and their allies, and the deposing of the last Etruscan king, the Roman republic began, ending a MONARCHY that had reached its peak of power and influence and cultural development from approximately 7 - 6th centuries BC.

What is truly amazing is that even a succession of contemporary historians, including Herodotus (c. 5th centry BC), from approximately 5 BC - 1 BC, wrote and speculated about the mysterious origins of the Etruscans. Most believed the Etruscans arrived, in the area now known as Tuscany, around 800 BC. Some of the historians speculated that most of the 'Thyrrenians (= Etruscans) had fled famine in Asia Minor. More specifically, they were believed to be LYDIANS from Asia Minor because of the similarities in some religious practices that were otherwise 'alien' to the Etruria.
Others believed that the Etruscans fled from TROY, and the TROJAN WARS, led by ANAEAS. Ironically, the war and the events of the Trojan War, were parts of mythology. It is unknown, even today, where the actual city was located vs. the archeological site designated as Troy. Ancient historians think it was much further off the coast and under the sea. While Plato and later historians thought that ATLANTIS might have been one of the Greek islands (?Santorini), other historians did not rule out TROY as being Atlantis. Was Atlantis inspired by the natural disasters that destroyed the the MINOAN civilizations of Crete and Thera? Etruscans might have been, they speculated, Atlantean descendants.

MINOAN LINKS http://www.dilos.com/region/crete/min_cul.html http://www2.ucsc.edu/people/bryn/pics/Minoan.html

Even more fascinating, the Etruscans themselves were mysterious about their origins. While not denying the movement from Asia Minor, the Etruscans, according to contemporary historians, believed that their ancestors were the "people beyond the sea". These SEA PEOPLE were believed to have been invaders cut a destructive path in Asia Minor, and Troy, ~12th century BC.

The mythology of the Sea People, for those who are familiar with Celtic and Grail cycles, is similar to the mythological origins of the Merovingian lineage of kings who considered themselves descendants of the Davidic priest-kings (more on this later because it has significant meaning for the grail subtext and specific symbols seen in Roswell, IMHO). It was also hypothesized that the Etruscans were descendants of the MINOANS of Crete, and that perhaps, if not descended from the Sea People, they came to the Aegean after a long migration that began even farther East in Asia.

CONTINUED IN ROOM II

Rosta

There were "12 peoples" and regions of Etruria. The rise of the great urban city-states occurred approximately 7-6th century. The Etruscans founded Rome. Rome grew from city-state (urb) to being the 'world' (orb) They were a strong naval power, wealthy miners, traders (with the Phoenicians who, a very few historians believe, may have sailed as far as South America). The Etruscans were a patriarchal monarchy, but the women were reported to have had the highest degree of freedom known among Greek and Roman society. As well as having a reputation of being very religious (they divined with birds and livers), steeped in mythology, literary and artistic, the Etruscans also had a reputation for being…well…sexually sophisticated and hedonistic, loving the good life. By the way, the Etruscans loved etching on metal (see metal book). They loved MIRRORS (ubiquitous in Roswell). They loved wreaths (there are a few in the Evans home). And animal skins (see Isabel's wardrobe). They believed in PREDESTINATION.

ETRUSCAN RELIGION (note the door in this fresco on this page): http://pages.ancientsites.com/~Camitlnas_Tullius/religion.html
The Etruscans divided the heaven and earth into 4 SQUARES or quarters and assigned strict regions of earthly and heavenly domains. EVAN is one of the 3 underworld Lasa goddesses who associate with VENUS (=Turan).

The gradual overthrow of the Etruscan aristocracy began around 5th century with noteworthy sea battles. The Roman society grew in power and strength and allies, until the Etruscans (whose only allies by this time were the Carthaginians) were defeated by the 2nd century. The Etruscans never really united their city-states and this contributed to their defeat. They were assimilated into Roman society, but the Romans had been influenced by (and adopted) Etruscan culture.

I know many of you will find the history fascinating if you follow the links below. You might even be surprised at the similarity of the Etruscan writing and the metal book writing in Roswell. A word of caution, many of the symbols are ubiquitous in many ancient world cultures. Additionally, the artistic designer is not bound to lift symbols exactly from one or more sources. What do you think?
:glow
***MUST SEE ALPHABET ! http://babaev.narod.ru/script/etrus2.gif
(from this website: http://babaev.narod.ru/script/itali.html)

LANGUAGE http://pages.ancientsites.com/~Camitlnas_Tullius/language.html
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,118161+3,00.html

The Romans adapted their writing from the Etruscans, who adapted their writing from a primitive form of the Greek alphabet. However, the Etruscans did NOT borrow Greek grammar and syntax. The Etruscans spoke a non-Indo-European language. Not enough documentation survived to assist in the translation of the Etruscan language and, to this day, the language has defied translation. ? The exceptions are formulaic funerary inscriptions. Although reported to have been prolific writers (literary, plays), almost all have been lost and only a few documents remain. Perhaps because linen was the choice of document material?

CONTINUED IN THE ROOM III

Is there meaning in this for Roswell? Plenty!! :pinkey: So much, in fact, I need to do another post. Better still, others can. Some interesting themes: The writing/etchings in the metal book and cave wall. The etchings have a similarity to Etruscan funerary inscriptions. I get chills seeing the inscriptions under the picture etchings. Most significantly, theories about a lost/conquered monarchy, the last king (now that we think we know Max is of royal lineage because Edsedo "trust me" Harding told us) provide a rich source of story material.

Other possible connections and themes include: a ?last and lost monarch (reconstituted, though!); restoration; democracy v. monarchy; lost brides; lineages/bloodlines; ancient or new alliances; ancient v. new friends or enemies; protracted wars; mythology; great and strange powers; gods/goddesses/mortals; and so forth.

Think about Greek history and great battles. Those who have been on the boards back in March or April, recall NEMO's post about the BATTLE OF MARATHON. That model horse and the bridal picture on the shelf next to the therapist in S&B took on new meaning !!

Great reading, particularly the TROJAN WARS in GREEK BATTLES: http://www.crystalinks.com/greekwars.html
Enjoy this site, but turn your speaker down or off, it has a loud audio plug-in

Check out this COAT of ARMS: http://www.eng.uci.edu/~alberto/orvieto/pic/stemma2.jpg
(from this website: http://www.eng.uci.edu/~alberto/orvieto/index.html)

I could have sworn I saw a representation of this 'scale box' for the LYDIAN mode (see 2/3 down the page) in a window in the back of the Crashdown Café (don't recall the episode) http://www.dreamscape.com/esmith/dansm/scales/major/lydian.htm
What were those notes on the chalkboard behind Liz in The Pilot episode?

Read and enjoy the links provided. Regardless of any connection to Roswell, intentionally or unintentionally, directly or indirectly, this is absolutely fascinating reading.

IF aliens indeed came to Roswell, did they have some ATLANTEAN origins? Did these origins actually begin with mysterious beings 'from beyond the sea" , a mythological metaphor for origins from the sea of space?

Would these early settlers (a version of a study team or just stranded hapless folk) be forced to assimilate? Perhaps just enough to survive, but maintaining distance enough from human civilization to invite speculation, myth, and fear for so long that even their descendants eventually approached their own history as myth?

MUST SEE! CHECK THIS OUT FROM DISNEY, 2001 http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/atlantis/

Well heck, this is sci-fi, so why not create a scenario that advanced civilizations evolved and disappeared in different regions of the world for the plain reason they just wanted to hide/live in plain sight, but, for various reasons, had to move on. Perhaps they came to Earth in the first place to escape a war, a dying planet, evil aliens from other worlds, and any number of reasons sci-fi writers can imagine.

There are certainly any number of substantive and academic theories based on historical accounts of ancient cultures (don't miss a rebroadcast about Atlantis shown on the Discovery channel early this year); but there are, as well, entertaining (as well as crackpot) UFOlogy and New Age explanations and theories, including the Atlanteans possessing mastery over great sources of power (ie, earth's vortices) and the power to manipulate electromagnetic forces. There exist similarities to Etruscans in Incan and Mayan culture, which in turn may have transferred elements to early Native American culture.

Additional Etruscan or Minoan references: http://www.richmond.edu/academics/a&s/classics/students/belanger/cervetarquin.html
SLIDESHOW http://www.interkriti.org/visits/knosos.htm
fun FONTS: http://www.davebastian.com/goodies/fonts/etruscan.html

Miscellaneous
Real or forgery?: The LOS LUNAS STONE http://economics.sbs.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/loslunas.html

There were CROP CIRCLE pictures in the Roswell UFO museum. This is a very interesting site with links. http://www.cropcircles.co.uk/default.html

Some of you out there are students or experts at this. I am not. Not even an amateur historian. I just love this stuff. So please add, comment, and correct misstatements on my part from working quickly.

I will try in the near future to add images (ie, setup my own website).

Rosta

well there is a lot to take in; but part of what's so wonderful about these themes are the repeating patterns of symbol canons around the world and throughout history.

i've heard some folks discussing the overlap between biology and symbols...i think rosta has also brought this up? specifically that there are paralels between the biology of nature and the expression of symbols created by beings(human or alien? ).

anyway, the sophistication of ancient cultures despite (or because of? ) their lack of modern technology is astounding and often dismissed by mainstream modern society.

so... given that one of the major developmental life goals is to build and maintain connections... what rosta seems to be presenting is the 'macro' representation of the kinds of interpersonal connections that individuals have always striven for. only on a national, inter-galactic, and cultural level.

given the archetypal mandate involved with building connections it's not going to be too surprising to see this play out in roswell with charactors discovering that their heritages are vaster and older then previously imagined.

jenlev

ps. imagine how the history of the world would be different if the minoan culture had not been devistated by the explosions of the volcano on santorini (thera). it's the nature of a society to go through life stages, but that one was cut off earlier then would have been necessary by the effect of the natural disaster that occured?

As requested, I've popped in to post about those interesting and ever so baffling symbols. Here is my post that appears on the Liz Myth. thread.

Hi!
So very many symbols. We are definitely swimming in symbols! Get with it writers, answer our questions and explain these symbols! Or at least give us a few more clues.

Okay, done with the rant.

Beeper symbols

Starstruck -Aha! Thanks for pointing that out.
book symbols

I didn't change the symbols. So those are still accurate.

-

The strange Z appears here in the text.
-

Check out the M or W with vertical line and 2 dots appearing between Michael and Tess' heads in the book and between Michael and Isabel. So maybe it is actually between Michael & Isabel and Tess & Max. Does it mean marriage or union. Hmm.

They also appear in the cave symbols.
Check out the one with the vertical line and 3 dots with a candycane symbol

The dream symbols (life-size cave symbols):

-

Here again you can see the line & 3-dot with candycane symbol.

So the question is "Why do they appear on the EA beeper?"

And Part 2 of my symbols post also on the Liz Myth. thread:

Okay:
A better pic of the EA beeper

Then the interesting thing is as you slo-mo from one shot to the next the video editor put in a rather interesting effect. OR is it NOT JUST an effect? It could relate back to what we were discussing about the eyesight of the Skins. (Did anyone else want to say Shirts aka tag football when Nasedo said that? HeHe. It wasn't just me. My husband finally had a chance to watch S&B last night and he blurts out "shirts" in the midst of the promo. Sorry that was so OT.) Anyway, back to the effect.
First, there is an interesting red-type of negative shot.

And then the camera moves in closer and has several shot in a blue-type negative with the 5 lights lighting up.

Now all of this is very fast. So it would only register in your subconscious unless you GraceKel the tape. Hmm. Interesting. Just a thought.

Rosta - I'd be happy to repost on the Signs & Symbols page. I've been trying to get a good shot of that ring on Tess eversince you talked about it on the Sci-Fi thread, but it always appears blurry. To me, it looks like one of those knot rings. You can see it again in the Ask Not promo when she waves her hand over Max's face. (grr... the dreamer in my emerges) What symbol do you think it resembles?

[b]Rosta[b] - Thanks for posting the links on "ancient languages". I've been busy exploring them.

I think you are REALLY going to like these Peruvian tapestries. Note the familiarity of some of the pattern motifs you have come to know and be frustrated by

PURPLE TOCAPU design http://store4.yimg.com/I/novicastore_1574_387333
This design pattern is called 'tocapu'. These geometric designs were inportant in the Wari culture

INCA CHECKERS design http://store4.yimg.com/I/novicastore_1574_145042
Quote from the website: This amazing craft has been around for centuries in the state of Ayacucho, having been passed down to the Incas after originating among the ancient Wari culture of Peru
For more textiles and crafts, you can go to the Novicastore Website Main Page: http://store.yahoo.com/novicastore/ind.html

TOCAPUThis if the best design http://www.doaks.org/PCWebSite/Slide%20sets/II%20Textiles%20Peru/II%20HT ML%20pages/B-518-PT.html?43,54
but it is small. Save to your hard drive and use a graphics program to enlarge if you can.
It's worth the time to enlarge and enhance.

This textile can be seen at theDumbarton Oaks Museum (Wash, DC) website virtual Pre-Columbian Gallery http://www.doaks.org/Pre-Columbian.html

(Tess's ring is also very similar to the Incan 'frog' pattern, a pattern also found, among other places, in the ancient Aegean, a female symbol associated with fertility.)

Rosta

REDHAWK, thank you again. See my reply to your 'ring' picture post on the SF of S&B where you posted.

just a quick note to highly recommend the book i mentioned on the sci-fi of skin and bones thread: "the power of limits, proportional harmonies in nature, art and architecture" it's by gyorgy doczi, with an umlaut over the o in his first name.

some of it can be a bit odd, but wow, wait till you see the pictures in this book and the parallels it shows between internal and external manasfestions of patterns in nature, psyche and art!

jenlev

Below is yet another view of the beeper (sorry RedHawk, it still has your logo on it), and to add to Rosta's links, check out http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/atlantis/flash/index.html

Thanks for the captures of the symbols on the beeper. I noticed that each of the symbols on the beeper is from either the beginning or end of a "character string" from the original cave painting. (A, D, E, F are at the end of a string, C is at the beginning of a string, and B is adjacent to A -- visible in bottom image). The orientation of A is identical to the drawing Max made. If you mentally rotate each symbol to the A position, you will see that they are all identical to Max's drawing. (The only reason I mention that is because I thought one of them was a mirror image.)

I'm no linguist, so I really don't have much to add. What does it tell us if the evil aliens and MMIT's parent aliens all use the same characters in their written communication? Are we talking about a universal character system that spans planets, or the equivalent of the Roman alphabet used by so many western languages? Do the symbols have more than one meaning? Are the "character strings" words or sentences? I hope someone will be more insightful about all this.

SF

No infringement intended

Thank you so much!!! SUPER!! I'm ELATED. This is GREAT!! You did the most important thing of all: find a system or pattern or symmetry. I did I'm not a linguist and I still don't know what it means, but perhaps there is someone out there who now has enough to work with to make some guesses?? Definitely I think there is an attempt to show the relatedness of the languages/ symbols.

I made referral to this picture. I think it is very significant. This made me think of MUSIC symbols? at the beginning/ends of each grouping.

website:COMMON MUSIC NOTATION http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Software/cmn/cmn-manual/cmn.html
(scroll down to the large 'glossary' section near the end to see a HUGE collection of music symbols)

This is extracted from a post at the top of this thread:
***MUST SEE ALPHABET ! http://babaev.narod.ru/script/etrus2.gif
taken from this website: http://babaev.narod.ru/script/itali.html
LANGUAGE http://pages.ancientsites.com/~Camitlnas_Tullius/language.html
http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/1/0,5716,118161+3,00.html

You might be surprised at the similarity of the Etruscan writing and the metal book writing in Roswell. A word of caution, many of the symbols are ubiquitous in many ancient world cultures. Additionally, the artistic designer is not bound to lift symbols exactly from one or more sources. What do you think?

The Romans adapted their writing from the Etruscans, who adapted their writing
from a primitive form of the Greek alphabet. However, the Etruscans did NOT borrow Greek grammar and syntax. The Etruscans spoke a non-Indo-European language. Not enough documentation survived to assist in the translation of the Etruscan language and, to this day, the language has defied translation The exceptions are formulaic funerary inscriptions. Although reported to have been prolific writers (literary, plays), almost all have been lost and only a few
documents remain. Perhaps because linen was the choice of document material?

The Etruscans borrowed some letters from the Greeks but retained their own grammer and syntax. The Romans adopted the Etruscan alphabet.

JENLEV, thank you for the book recommendation. I am familiar with it, and with the topic, but I do plan to get the book when I have enough cash. It is very pertinant to Roswell. I think the 3D symbol
is a symbol of harmony, peace, balance. It is ubiquitous, but the meaning is almost consistent.

*The four rivers of Eden.

*The mind/body/spirit/soul unity (Jung);

*Tarot 4.

*NATIVE AMERICAN 4 = The Balance; 4 stages of life; 4 directions or dispersions of the people from the 4 CORNERS; spiritual unity.

*The Etruscan 4SQUARE concept (4 divisions of the heaven and earth), and on and on.

SHAPESHIFTER Thank YOU for your past, and hopefully continued, contributions to this thread. I still am amazed you made those AOL screencaps. Thank you for posting that link here. I was afraid people might not catch it buried above. I tried your link, though, but it didn't work on my computer (??flash) so I copied this link from above: http://www.apple.com/trailers/disney/atlantis/

Rosta
Off to think some more.

Addendum:I forgot to include these screencaps
triangle and hexagram (from MORNING AFTER)

I'm no linguist, so I really don't have much to add. What does it tell us if the evil aliens and MMIT's parent aliens all use the same characters in their written communication? Are we talking about a universal character system that spans planets, or the equivalent of the Roman alphabet used by so many western languages? Do the symbols have more than one meaning? Are the "character strings" words or sentences? I hope someone will be more insightful about all this.

SF

No infringement intended

SF: Thank you, you rock!

Observations:
1) The symbols on the beeper that matches the symbols on the map/drawing are either at the beginning or the end of the "text". The notable exception is "B", which is actually right next to "A". Perhaps B+A is a dipthong (sp) of somesort or maybe whatever "A" and "B" represent, they must always be together.

Possible Conclusions:
The location of either at the end or the beginning of the symbols on the "text" lines that surround the "V" symobls seems important. Perhaps, telling us which way to read the line of text.

Perhaps the text tells a history of specific events and the symbols A,B,D,E,F are either the catalyst or result of the events.

The hexagonal shape of the alien beeper to me represents the Royal Four, Nasedo, and Liz. 4+1+1 = 6. Nemo, can you take it from here? LOL

Take a close look at the beeper. The outside edge is a hexagon, the display is a pentagon. Thus reaffirming the number theory 4+1 we established in Season One.

Why do this?? Make the outside edge 6 sided, but the inside edge 5 sided. Could it be that symbols A and B are always meant to be together? That would make the six sided edge symbolically 5 sided... Oh, goosebumps!

Other observations:

The nature of the symbols them selves look complicated and hard to write.

Conclusions:
1) Aliens that developed these symbols are artistic and have the manual finger dexterity to write these.
2a) The language is most likely not an intergalatic one... If there are more aliens of different species, it would be folly to conclude that they would be able to reproduce these symbols with success. I doubt if I could myself.
2b) The most likely reason for the sameness between the beeper and the map is a common alphabet. Even the Roman Alphabet and the Slavic Alphabet have many of the same symbols. In Russian, the letter H sounds like an N.

Our alphabet was developed by scribes that used chisels to write into tablets. We have letters that are easy to chisel. Knowing this, what does this say about the alien alphabet? The language used would be difficult to produce in the same manner. Thus, could the language, if a phoentic alphabet be highly advanced!

Or is it an alphabet at all!

ROStaFEHRian, the screencap of Max next to the geometry equation seems important to me too. The triangle is not labeled, so you have no idea what triangle it's refering too. The /_\ AEF could mean anything, but where's the label?

Hope these are ok points with everyone!

Rosta said
You might be surprised at the similarity of the Etruscan writing and the metal book writing in Roswell.

SF replies
Rosta, I looked at the Etruscan alphabet a couple of days ago and I agree that there are a lot of similar symbols. I can no longer get to the etrus2.gif. Could you please check your link. I was also struck by the visual similarity of the Roswell book and the two pieces of gold leaf from the temple at Pyrgi from http://pages.ancientsites.com/~Camitlnas_Tullius/language.html

Thanks to crashdown for the image.

Etruscan writing on the left, Phoenician on the right.

I suppose any language inscribed on a solid tablet would have an overall visual similarity. Punching the symbols out of the metal pages seems odd to me. I can't think of any "real" examples. Can you?

Rosta said
A word of caution, many of the symbols are ubiquitous in many ancient world cultures. Additionally, the artistic designer is not bound to lift symbols exactly from one or more sources. What do you think?

SF replies
I take your warning to heart. I'm still treading water, but I have long since lost sight of the shore. I am also so out of my depth that I will shortly be drowning... I will leave all discussions of root languages, entoptics, archtypes, and the genetic syntactical pre-programing of the human brain to others.
As to the artistic designer intent... that's a tough one. S/He is getting ideas from somewhere, and given the time constraints they're working under, I wouldn't be surprised of they're pulling the majority of their ideas from 2/3 sources.

Qfanney, I loved the Max-puppy story. It was the best laugh I had all day yesterday. If you actually get this to load, could you please delete the images in my qoute. The server I originally uploaded to is very slow. I have uploaded to a new one, and hopefully that will speed up the time it takes this thread to load. I can also delete some of the images in this message. Please let me know if that's necessary.

Qfanny said
The location either at the end or the beginning of the symbols on the "text" lines that surround the "V" symobls seems important. Perhaps, telling us which way to read the line of text.

SF replies
Interesting comment. If you look at the two images below. Max's drawing vs. the cavemap, note that "C = spiral" was added later and that it is the only one within the V-shape. It is also the only symbol that starts a character string. It's odd that in the map you have easily recognizable character strings, while in the text pages of the book all characters are placed equidistant in rows. Yes, I am grasping at straws, I have no ideas...

Qfanny said
Conclusions:
1) Aliens that developed these symbols are artistic and have the manual finger dexterity to write these.
Our alphabet was developed by scribes that used chisels to write into tablets. We have letters that are easy to chisel. Knowing this, what does this say about the alien alphabet? The language used would be difficult to produce in the same manner

SF replies
Good point. The symbols lend themselves to a fluid medium, i.e., ink on paper. I spent some time today looking at Celtic symbols that were probably orginally carved in stone, and I can't discount scribes' or artisans' patience.

Qfanny said
2a) The language is most likely not an intergalatic one... If there are more aliens of different species, it would be folly to conclude that they would be able to reproduce these symbols with success. I doubt if I could myself.
2b) The most likely reason for the sameness between the beeper and the map is a common alphabet. Even the Roman Alphabet and the Slavic Alphabet have many of the same symbols. In Russian, the letter H sounds like an N.

SF replies
I tend to agree. This would point to the good aliens and bad aliens coexisting for an extended period, i.e., co-opting the same alphabet. That then makes the battle more of a civil war than an invasion.

Dreamdancer, I tried to find some Celtic Ruin graphics. I can see the similarities to the some of the symbols, but generally they seem too elaborate. I was really struck by the similarities between this celtic knot and the symbol in the place of the first L in Roswell (thanks to redhawk for the image).
from http://members.aol.com/Cyrion7/celtic/

OT: Dreamdancer and Rosta, I thought the disney promo was pretty intense too. Did either of you think "The fifth element" when the beam of light came out of that woman? There was an entertaining pseudo-science book on "The secret of Atlantis" by Otto Muck. Unfortunately it's out of print, but the writer had some very interesting theories.

No infringement intended

SF

very wonderful stuff folks! what's very cool is how the pattern of linguistic crossover between cultures represented in our planet's history can be repeated on a macro interplanetary scale.

perhaps the writers might take atvantage of the opportunity to tell the audience (and the charactor who no doubt would like to know too ) something of the long term history of the interaction between the skins nad shapeshifters. perhaps as has been mentioned there have been long periods of time where they co-existed peacefully, and even collaborated on many levels.

who knows what triggered the war. i have a feeling that rosta and sf are on target about the vast periods of time involved in this whole thing.

and given the amount of time it took for this planet to develop a written language imagine how long it might take to develop a language that can be understood by mulitple SPECIES!

also; there is apparently a lot of evidence that the origins of letters are in the actual represenation of the item they were supposed to describe. maybe the shapeshifter culture is at a different place in that process then we assume? perhaps each symbol or letter represents a whole story or idea rather then just a word or sentence?

did anyone see that "star trek the next generation" episode where picard (et. al.) are trying to crack the language code of the tamarians?(did i get the name right?) picard ends up on a planet with the captain of the other ship trying to understand the language; and it turns out that they are an entire race that speaks in metaphor.

as for how the symbols are written...if the shapeshifters are able to do what nasedo did perhaps their writing is produced by simply moving a digit across the material being utilized and "manipulating the molecules" to produce the 'writing' ?

therefore, perhaps the book that tess gave the podsters was actually handwritten by nasedo after the crash...and the action of manipulating the molecules in the metal to produce the imprint of the symbols created the holes that are shown in the pages?

and remember max writing on the brick wall of liz's balcony in 'blind date'? maybe all the shapeshifter's need to do is access some racial memory, focus, and start up their index-digit?

jenlev

Originally posted by Dreamdancer:
quote:The fifth element.

That term, DREAMDANCER (and the movie, SF) have not been far from my mind since I started watching Roswell, what with the recurring 'V'/5/4+1 motif and the silver 'egg'/beacon.

quote:DREAMDANCER wrote:
Now say another group of aliens came and started a civil ar wanting to take over and colonize Earth themselves. The war went on
... The aliens who had first come went home

DREAMDANCER, I have had a sense that the definition of what is alien is a major theme in Roswell. At the same time, I'm not even sure we will get an answer. Under the surface I keep hearing the refrain: Why can't we all just...get along?

A head spinning hypothetical history (in the Roswell universe), spanning time and space, might go like this: from some distant world and/or galaxy, perhaps, a disapora began.

Those who set out surely did not complete the journey (unless there was time travel). And colonizers who made it as far as this earth, or to some closer jumping point on that leg of the journey, probably only recall the origins and 'Original Ones'in myth or legend or PROPHESY.

Also likely, some Colonizers, separated in time and space from their ancestors, have learned the fear or hatred of "The Other(s)". The descendants no longer recognize (or even like) their ancestors.

It is possible that some who came to earth left- and their descendants returned. They soon realized that perhaps the prior trip was not benigh in terms of how the evolution of the planet progressed (I'll leave it to the scifi imagination to suggests reasons how).

Perhaps the 'colonizers' never left. Perhaps some started out from here and never returned.

If a civilization was alien in origin, but has been on this earth for tens of millenia, are they 'alien' or 'human'? Are their descendants part alien or human?

Who are the aliens in the Roswell universe? All? None? Sometimes I think Tess is the only real (and lonely) alien. Her podmates did not survive.

I tend to think that M/M/I are different from each other, but that some (if not allof the podsters) have origins that are more of this earth than alien (perhaps a secret government experiment of the DOD research arm?). If Holo-mom was real, those who were meant to hear the message were not the one's who actually heard it.

I tend to think 'newcomer' aliens to earth are few and far between in Roswell. I think the various human and so-called 'alien' groups have been here for a long, long time (variably influenced by environment, perhaps)in the Roswell universe. Perhaps the lineages are intertwined. Perhaps some visitors did not abide by a 'Prime Directive'.

Most importantly, perhaps the parallel evolution of human and alien descendants ocurred on earth.

"Mysterious" and "lost civilizations", IMO, provide the 'template' to tell the story. The Roswell creators may have borrowed from these mythologies, directly or indirectly, in large or in small part.

The message appears to be: different types of aliens AND/or humans (ie advanced human lineages)have been and are here. Living in plain signt. Hiding in plain sight. Living on the mountain top or on the reservation or in Piscataway (no offense!! )

As much as there is great beauty and love and faith in the world, there is still racial hatred, ethnic cleansing, wars of appalling atrocity, abuse, violence, relgious strife, hunger and poverty. etc. Fear of the other. Roswell appears to be a microcosm of this, galaxy spanning hatreds, fears, and agendas, not only in this time, but also in a time before.

OOO..It's very late, I'm sleepy , so I'll have to continue later. Just wanted to thank you again SF for the photos and your great post.

Note 10/14: I accidentally posted a new post in this spot an 'edit' as, and erased the original message that was posted here. I went to my hard-drive to find the copy of the original to repost here. I will put the new post down below! Rosta

Qfanny said
Take a close look at the beeper. The outside edge is a hexagon, the display is a pentagon. Thus reaffirming the number theory 4+1 we established in Season One.

Qfanny, I'm sure you already picked this up. Now that we've had a good look at the beeper, it is a pentagon on the outside. Being the anal geek that I am, I had to check how they fitted 6 symbols into five points. The black pentagon border is composed of 5 isoceles triangles. The "Z" (B) and the spiral (C) are on the same isoceles triangle. Those are the two oddball symbols in terms of placement, i.e., the only two not found at the end of a character string. The spiral is also odd in that it is not on the cavemap, but is in Max's drawing and in the visions. I hope this all actually means something, but I could be reading way to much into it all.

Jenlev said
perhaps each symbol or letter represents a whole story or idea rather then just a word or sentence?

I think that's definitely true for the stand alone symbols. So how would you then interpret a row of "stories/ideas" adjacent to each other? As a history/theory? Would the context modify the stories/ideas? Do you think the overall placement is a "context" issue as well? I sometimes wonder if they had a clear vision of what they meant to do with the cave map when they designed it for Riverdog. Are we seeing a lot of after the fact tweaking?

Jenlev said
maybe all the shapeshifter's need to do is access some racial memory, focus, and start up their index-digit?

I love it

OK, my apologies to everyone who's bored stiff with the symbols. I'm still stuck on them. You know that little sequence that they show between segments of the episode: the last scene of Destiny, interspersed with flashes of the big symbols followed by the changing Roswell logo. Well at last I've looked at the big symbols. Rosta and redhawk have already, so I'm coming to it a little late, but here's my two cents.

The first symbol is the "library" symbol, or the one on the cover of the book. The C and D of the crashdown logo really mimic the outer curves of this shape. Some people have mentioned that it looks like rings around a planet. My new take it looks like a stylized blast. The central dot is an ellipse (distorting outward) , the two curves are the shock waves expanding outward. What could it mean? The destruction of the home planet? The crash? The way the beeper emits energy?

The second symbol is an outer circle with a bean shape inside. My take, one of the shapes from the original four square symbol, so I think it means a pod person.

Third shape is the stylized biped with a dot for a head, a curve for the arms, and two long lower limbs. Are we supposed to think the stereotypical alien grey shadow?? Or a human shadow late or early in the day??

Fourth shape has a solid pacman in the center with an almost closed elliptical arc around it. No idea. Sabotaged pod person?

Fifth shape is composed of six dots with curves that spiral in towards an empty center. Looks like a bola, but with 6 balls instead of three. I assume it's supposed to be MMMLIA, i.e., they'll come together in the end.

The sixth shape is made up of two equilateral triangles and a big and small circle. It has a big solid circle at the center (Isabel) with two equilateral triangles, one above the circle (Max) and one slightly below and to the left (Michael). In a bilaterally symmetrical position to the lower left triangle is a small solid circle (Tess). Who each shape indicates is debatable, but it does seem to be a shorthand for the pod people.

The seventh shape is the modified 4 squares from Four Square (supposedly the pod people, all equal [and yes, I do know there are other interpretations]). I find it interesting that the more informative sixth shape has been introduced for the second season.

The eighth shape is an elongated spiral. Someone really likes C.

The ninth shape is a modified spiral. Instead of just curling in towards the center, the elongated spiral ends in a circle as it spirals inward. The symbol is composed of 5 components. The modified spiral. A solid circle that is positioned partially on the opening arm of the spiral. An incomplete square that seems to frame the two circles I've mentioned. Two same size circles flank the opening arm of the spiral, and are positioned outside the incomplete square. I have all kinds of interpretations, but it would be helpful to have a screen cap of this image.

OK, I'm out of steam. To anyone who kept reading, thanks for hanging in there. I'll try to do some more later.

SF

Hello!

I also find the symbols compelling SF. Thank you so much for your posts. I truly enjoyed them. The symbol I find the most fascinating is the 'bean' appearing symbol in the surface. It brings to mind the word: GERMPLASM, and is all the more fascinating when juxtaposed with the modified symbol of the child/ person symbol also inside a circle.

This site is interesting; the reading is easy-to-moderate difficulty: http://www.hhmi.org/home/research/11,1.html

GRIN http://www.ars-grin.gov/

Creation of the most resistant, disease free, enduring, plant and animal produce.

There has been an abundance of plant motifs in Roswell, most recently in Skin and Bones. There have been many Native American motifs for the sacred foods: beans, squash, and corn. That ubiquitous windmill tower motif (minus the windmill, of course) with it's diamond pattern appears, in drawings, as a sacred symbol for squash. Plants placed to appear they are sprouting 'out' of the person, ie, Edsedo.

Can we ever forget Mrs. Evans' green bean, garlic and veggies the stir fry.

Or that famous green bean casserole (ID). That casserole might certainly be #1 on the top 10 list of reasons you might think twice about spending the night and/or accepting an invitation to dinner in the Evans' home (no wonder they hadn't met Michael; he'd checked out that casserole in the Evans' refrigerator before).

How about the 'aliens' spraying something on the cactus with the curling feet.

What is in FLORIDA?: http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/SoAtlantic/Miami/homeshrs.html

What's in LAS CRUCES, NEW MEXICO? http://www.spa.ars.usda.gov/newmex.htm
US research map: http://www.ars-grin.gov/ars/res.html

Check out the USDA logo http://www.ars.usda.gov/
then look at the Crashdown STRAWS.

Too similar for coincidence??

One of many plant juxtapositions.


Note the lamp motif, also similar to Tess' ring (IMO), which appears to be a 'plant' motif.

Coincidence probably, but creepy. Germplasm preservation and plant and/or animal hybridization is hot, controversial news. Worth thinking about? What do you think.

I will try to find a better article on germplasm and find more screencaps. I can't find the green pod chamber pictures or the season 2 screencaps at CD.

ROSTA

The screencap links don't appear to be working these days. PLEASE go to the Images section and find these pictures:

IMAGES section
Leaving Normal: leavnorm4.jpg
a large image of the 'spraying' aliens and
cactus

SCREENCAPS section:
ss101-013 mornafter alex+cactus
ss110-001 toyhouse green beans
ss110-095 toyhouse lamp and plant
ss117-009 tlv the crashdown STRAW shape

?location sab33 alex and cactus
?green pod chamber

I tried the Etruscan link I posted near the top and I guess it is no longer working. Anyway, I found another link that is almost as good as the original link.
ETRUSCAN ALPHABET NEW LINK http://sr10.xoom.com/pdictus/alphabet.html
(website: VOICES OF STONE, MAJOR LANGUAGES OF THE IRON AGE IN ITALY http://sr10.xoom.com/pdictus/index.html)

Perhaps the Aricebo message sent into space in 1974 provided another source of inspiration for the Roswell creative , research and art direction team.

The ARICEBO message
by Frank Drake, sent into space in 1974
http://www.seti-inst.edu/science/a-message.html

Note the symbols of the Aricebo message. Let me direct your attention to the bottom one. Similar to the one illuminated symbol (seen in the promos) of the arc over the pac-man type shape. This is the least seen symbol shape. Maybe they changed their minds on this one. Also note the
stick figure.

Movie CONTACT website
http://contact-themovie.warnerbros.com/main.html

YOU ABSOLUTELY MUST SEE THESE SYMBOLS at the CONTACT site!!!!

DIRECT QUOTE from the Aricebo web page: A graphic showing the message is reproduced here. It consists, among other things, of the Arecibo telescope, our solar system, DNA, a stick figure of a human, and some of the biochemicals of earthly life. Although it's unlikely that this short inquiry will ever prompt a reply, the experiment was useful in getting us to think a bit about the difficulties of communicating across space, time, and a presumably wide culture gap

For your leisure reading, I’m reposting this link on the topic of space COLONIZATION , a hypothetical timeline, a really interesting and entertaining article, with wonderful graphics, that I think is very pertinent to Roswell. The article is recent from SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN, July 2000
WHERE ARE THEY? THE SEARCH FOR EXTRATERRESTRIALS http://www.sciam.com/2000/0700issue/0700crawford.html

Older article that might be interesting: The Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence http://www.sciam.com/explorations/010697sagan/010697sagan2.html

Enjoy
Rosta

[/B]Qfanny replys[/B]
Both the circle and the arc are only 3/4 complete. The arc seems to be protecting the hole in the circle. This leads me to believe that the humans are protecting the podsters. OR this. The arc is the missing 1/4 of the circle and it cannot fit exactly in its spot. So the arc sits out and tries to fill the spot as best it can. In this case, the 3/4 circle is the podsters and the 1/4 is Tess. Tess doesn't quite fit.

Thanks-- I've updated the images on the above post.

Rosta, I have neglected your site. But how ironical, co-incidental, yea, even archetypical, that I finally see this post now, after I just posted the same image on the Archives site at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell
Specifically, at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/numbers.htm

You will see there Nemo's discussion of musical notation symbolism.

My slightly dressed up version is:

--which has an obvious reference to the Love triangle, though I had not intended it.

BTW, Nemo has had trouble seeing some of the Archive site's font colors in Netscape 4.6. If anyone else has this problem, let me know via plum@ulink.net since Maxcedo is too much in demand to bother with such details.

Redhawk I tried to post these MORNING AFTER, for comparison to the beeper, in my post of 10/8, but I mangled the url (I had labelled them Leaving Normal by mistake). I tried to fix them yesterday, still not realizing I had the ep name wrong, so they still didn't work. I just found them again and copied and pasted the url from the properties screen, so, hopefully, they will work this time.

REDHAWK wrote:
quote:in a rather interesting effect. OR is it NOT JUST an effect? It could relate back to what we were discussing about the eyesight of the Skins
First, there is an interesting red-type of negative shot.

I also found these among the 285South images. One appears similar to the symbol of the large circle accompanied by the 2 triangles and the smaller circle. The difference is that the geometric shape in the center is hexagram and not a circle.


[IMG]
I haven't a clue what it all means.

Rosta.

Screencaps from Crashdown and REDHAWK made the beeper photos.

Well! Hmph!
Just kidding. You know you are always at home here. Just don't let it happen again

quote:
You will see there Nemo's discussion of musical notation symbolism.

I just came from your site . My, you have put up a lot. That's a lot of work. Good job guys. Now how many days of neglect do I own you in return?

I am familiar with NEMOs post since he first posted a while back about the music notes behind Liz. Clearly very significant in that photo (?PILOT) as well as the one I posted next to Max, altho the significance is less clear in the latter case (cant recall the episode).

I had a slightly different focus. Based on SF's diagram which illustates a specific pattern of key symbols at the beginning or ending of a 'phrase' or grouped elements, I was considering a music note (or harmonic, frequency). Or, if the entire phrase is musical notation, then these specific symbols might be punctuation or music stops. (refer to my link for the glossary)

If, indeed there are music elements among these symbols, particularly at the ending or beginning of the strings, then the function might include a podster-specific note/harmonic which might also be PLACE specific (ie, right podster, right place, right recognition of symbols). And this might work in combination with symbols that might be entoptic (and, even excluding what appear to be pictographs, there are different classes of symbols here, I believe, and not all of them would be music notation, if, indeed, any of them are).

Rosta

1) When Max is being followed at school, he turns a corner, check out the painting in the background. It is blue and looks like it's divided into 4 squares.

2) When Max confronts Brody (after the BEM) watch the monitors behind Brody's head. They are aligned like the four square symbol.

When the screencaps come up, I'll be able to show you better, but I think that the four square symbol is more and more prevalent for a reason.

Thoughts?

dreamdancer, thanks for bringing this great image up. and i think nemo on the 'sci-fi of ask not' thread also wrote about this (sorry if i'm not recalling correctly).

yes it's striking (no pun intended) that the first view of the door is "rage" and then "sto-rage" which given the charactor development might be read to reflect how some people store rage away...or become terrified of viewing what lies behind rage?

ok, so i'm reaching here, since there is no way to know what the director/editor/producers intended...

anyway; it's certainly a cool image. and when max opens the door to see the janitor with the flame; it adds to the suggestion that the podsters have not yet addressed the degree of anger and terror about being put in the whole situation by the shapeshifters.

jenlev

Our beloved, and still witty, Kyle has returned from camp spiritually enlightened by the light of Buddhism. I suspect 7:00awill become a perpetual time of “awakening” for Kyle Who forgot about this, or did not think that we might revisit Tibetan Buddhism, or associated references?

I. Welcome to The ChakRa Kahn Room (I feel for you…)

There were always hints, even prior to Tess, the statues, and mentioning of Myanmar. It appears that the ring on her left ring finger (seen partially in S&B), could be an Om symbol ring (I need a screencap!)

Do you recall the 12-spoked Chakra wheel, clearly seen in a few episodes, on top of the living room cabinet in the Valenti residence? There is also a wheel (not seen clearly, but it appears to have 12 spokes) hanging near the Crashdown.

Do you recall that Sheriff Valenti wore a 7-point star in the PILOT,

and a 6-point star on his jacket

but in subsequent episodes, jacket and badge have the 5-point star(significant in Roswell)?

II. Come Into The Light

This is a reposting of what I originally posted [08-10-2000 on the first SIGNS&SYMBOLS &.BEHR!..OH MY! thread. This is an abridged version.

…note the glowing stone in the whirlwind/vortex rendering:

Perhaps the light in the whirlwind/vortex structure on the map refers to the light of
the collective consciousness/unconscious, the essence, or the 7th chakra:
universal identity,
transformation,
spiritual presence,
or the ‘grail’ (inner path to spiritual
transformation)

In Sanskrit, CHAKRA means 'wheel'. It may also describe a vortex or force center. Chakras refer to the 7 basic energy centers in the body. They correlate to nerve ganglia branching from the spinal column. Chakras, the non-physical counterpart of the human body which can't be destroyed, can relate to psychic centers of consciousness, levels of consciousness, life stages, and spiritual qualities (see references below for much better summaries that you can read).

Sheriff Valenti has a 12-spoked wheel on top of the cabinet in his living room. You can see it clearly in a few episodes. The chakra wheel is usually 12 spoked. Micahel is shown in the vision standing on a 5 spoked wheel.
I do not know about any 5 spoked wheels, but perhaps someone else has more knowledge.

At the base of the spine, the triangular bone (the coccyx bone at the end of the
sacral spine) is considered very sacred, containing the "most subtle sacred
energy", the dormant energy in each of us, called the KUNDLINI.
The first chakra is here.

The seventh center, Sahasrara, is the most important, and is at or above the crown.

Quote: "At the time of awakening, our second birth, the egg-like personality breaks at the top of the head.

Quote: "As human awareness is united to the divine, we move into the subtlest communication: into the Collective Consciousness".

Visit this colorful site for the short version on Chakras: http://www.sacredcenters.com/chakras.html

For fun, try these links for more details (but do search for more scholarly sites to get something more solid than New Age interpretations) :

From PBS: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/tibet/understand/intro.html

And more: http://www.spiritweb.org/Spirit/chakras.html
http://utenti.tripod.it/aum/kundalini_ eng/chakras.html

http://utenti.tripod.it/aum/kundalini_ eng/chakras.html

And then look at this diagram: http://pict.spiritweb.org/Spirit/Images/chakras.jpg

Perhaps these concepts have served as the TEMPLATES ( for the purpose storytelling), or of "akino" from the books "Essence".

Perhaps the ‘The Evil Ones’ can be identified because they are without light within (or they have bad backs? Spineless? Bone structure/vertebrae may be very important, don't you think? Is it season 2 yet?

Perhaps there are many centers of energy (vortex centers). New Age thought has added more to the list of places designated in legend and myth as sacred places. As I posted yesterday, there are sites in the SouthWestern 4-corners region. The list, old and new, ie, new, Sedona (Arizona), Mt Shasta (northwest?state), pyramid of Giza, Machu Pichu, Ayer's Rock (Australia), Avebury/Stonehenge Glastonbury,.P. as the center (southward). It doesn't hurt that a place in Peru has a stone with a 5 point V rendering, including representations of the sun, moon, Venus. And a man and a woman.(I need to find a photo of this).

Rosta

Hi DREAMDANCER

JENLEV, hi I believe that is a good point. The podsters most definitely have to face a lot of anger and rage. Not only as a result of their recent harsh and cruel expriences, but also related to issues of abandonment. Sooner or later Max and Iz are going to have to confront their adoptive parents about various issues. It hey are indeed hybrids, and part of some experiment or plan, then I suspect there will be a lot of anger associated with the acquisition of this knowledge and other revelations yet to come.

I forgot to include this link with the above. http://www.byzant.com/symbols/om.html

also see: http://www.byzant.com/symbols/hexagrom.html

In S&B, during the scenes when Tess is on her cell phone with Max, she is initially holding the phone in her right hand. But then we see it in her LEFT hand and she is holding her hand in such a way that you can see little more than half of the ring, but not enough to determine symmetry. If if is symmetrical, then it would appear to be similar to one of the illuminated symbols (see promos).

If it is asymmetrical, then the visible part of the ring is the same as, or similar to, the main part of this "Om" symbol. (I wish I could get screen caps, but I don't know where the promo and 2nd season screencaps are on Crashdown.)

R

Michael's door: (I couldn't find the screen cap)

Excavation Lamps:

Window Panes behind Jim

Door look- Why is one red?

Pods

Look at the art behind Whitaker. I think this is suppose to be the four square symbol done with the emphasis on the cross. Forget about the circular frame.

Check out the monitors behind Brody!

How about those doors!


OK-- What the heck is that bottle Maria is holding. Someone said Gator-Aid. But I think it looks like cough syrup! Glad to see it's blue though.

Screencaps are courtsey of Crashdown.com. No infringement intended. Used for the purpose of academic discussion.

Hi QFANNY
Thank you so much for the screencaps. I, too, don't know what to make of the 4 square references beyond the associations (sacred, mythological, etc) with the number 4, considered to be the number of perfection. It is almost universally a significant number.

quote:Michael's door: (I couldn't find the screen cap)

I like this one. I have been looking for screencaps too. In S&B, the 'unreal' image of the door has contributed most to my feeling that this episode (as well as SURPRISE and possibly ASK NOT) are partially or all: dream, nightmare, delusion, alternate universe/timeline. Also for other reasons I have stated elsewhere.

quote:Door look- Why is one red?

Allusion to the Microsoft Windows logo? Wanna bet the bottom 2 panes are blue and yellow? I thought some of the symbols presented in the first 2 premeire promos bore an uncanny resemblance to computer logos (ie, AOL animated logo). Curiouser and curiouser.

quote:Look at the art behind Whitaker. I think this is suppose to be the four square symbol done with the emphasis on the cross.

This is the state flag of New Mexico with the Zia sun synbol.
http://www.nmsu.edu/~bho/zia.html
(very interesting read)
This is a very spiritual and sacred symbol of the ancient Zia Pueblo peoples, which, as I alluded to just above, is one example of a cultural representation of the sacredness of the number 4.

Be sure to look at the colorful and very interesting flag of the city of Roswell and state pin (click on the pin to get a nice enlargement), both of which incorporate, of course, the Zia symbol, indicative of the sun's rays.

http://roswell-usa.com/city/flag.htm

In addition to representing the 4 directions, the 4 phases of life, 4 seasons, etc, the symbol also represents the division of the heavens and earth, a similar belief as the Etruscans' 4-Square (see page 1 of Signs&Symbols)

quote:OK-- What the heck is that bottle Maria is holding. Someone said Gator-Aid. But I think it looks like cough syrup! Glad to see it's blue though.

I'll have to look at the videotape. I can't make it out here.

quote:Screencaps are courtsey of Crashdown.com. No infringement intended. Used for the purpose of academic discussion.

I'd really like to know where on Crashdown these are? I don't see any of the season 2 screencaps, nor the promo screencaps, on the Images section of Crashdown.

Hi, SHAPESHIFTER
Thank you providing this definition. I couldn't find anything to post here. And thank you for the heads-up about the 12-sides granolith chamber (if that is what it is).
I'll look closer. Recall, Liz has a 12-point star-shaped frame around the mirror in her room. Twelve is also a very sacred number in many systems.

Rosta

If you rewatch AN for the blue bottle, also know that Courtney holds a blue bottle of liquid too in Surprise. It is in one of the photographs Michael finds in Whitaker's office. Is it just gator-aid.

And, does anyone think that the granolith could be represented by the triangle in the cave map? It would seem to be pretty important--unless Nasedo didn't want to let out any clues as to its whereabouts. I think the podsters were engineered to reach maturity at the same time that the Skins would reach the end of their 50 years provided the Skins did not find the granolith. The Granolith was certainly nestled next to the pods.

i'm wondering if we have a case of 'which came first the chicken or the egg' regarding the archetypes of the computer age. is it a combination of the ancient archetypes driving how the technology is designed, or are new archetypes actually emerging from either the old or from the "ether"? although, i'm thinking that even a completely new technology will still be tied to the age old symbols and patterns that have been discussed on this thread.

also, in looking at the pictures of the granolith i can't help but wonder...perhaps the granolith is a giant human dna/alen essense blender? although i doubt they sell them at 'williams and sonoma'

jenlev

ps. seriously, perhaps the granolith was involved in the making of the podsters?

And I did my own GraceKelling and, yes, "Reds" is "Freds" with the "F" burned out. Not especially significant, but interesting.

jenlev

ps. seriously, perhaps the granolith was involved in the making of the podsters?

I thought I was the only one that saw the granolith as medical equipment!

Yes, that is what I think it does and I think that is why the Skins want it so badly. They need human DNA to be infused into their bodies.

I have a question regarding the colors they use red a lot in the scenes between Micheal and CW, also green and blue. Green when walking from the UFO Center and in the Pod Chamber. Blue when looking at the egg vortex thingy and in the Credits with Tess. Do you think these colors have speacial meaning or they are just concidences or is emotion evokers or symbols of some kind.
I will stop my rambling now...

ok, i've officially lost it ... but perhaps the granolith is the 'swiss army knife' of the galaxy? maybe it takes the power it has to generate a worm hole and to fuse disparate biological essenses?

certainly mythology is riddled with references and examples of objects that provide the person using it with multiple resources and powers? for example, the grail, excalibur, cloaks that make one invisible, thor's hammer.....etc. etc.

anyway, my brain fails me here, any other examples come to mind?

"nothing left to do but " jenlev

I just notice that the late Congresswoman's first name was Vanessa....hmmm...Vanessa and Valandra are very similar. Maybe she was really the traitor in the other life and thus became a skin (kind of like getting locked into the Collective Consciousness in the books) and was trying to get the granolith to break the spell, like the Evil DuPris in the books.

Qfanny, you only have 81 more posts til you get your Avatar!!
And the Tess-As-An-Evil-Alien post is up at the http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell site.
Goodness! Maxcedo has sure been busy!

Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab.

This key has four flats, in two pairs, reminiscent of AlienMom's four special people in their former lives. (The final Ab doesn't count separately; it is just the beginning of the same pattern repeating itself in the next octave. Not sure if this cyclic repetitive nature of scales counts as a symbol of reincarnation....)

Unlike other objects that have occurred in groups of three or four, these flats come in a definite order: If you have only one flat it is always Bb; if two, the second one is Eb, etc; the fourth one is Db. That's the spot where Liz stood (during that long important scene where Max admitted he's an alien) -- right in front of that fourth flat. As if representing the fourth member of the group.

(More on this at the Maxcedo site: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/numbers.htm )

Rosta, you also raised the question of musical symbols in connection with this picture (from Morning After):

The context being geometry, I didn't think of interpreting the AEF musically. But if it is noteplay, it looks like 3-4-1:

3 sharps in the key of A major (the most common mode)
4 sharps in E
1 flat in F.

Interesting that the 4 and 3 are of the same type (sharps) while the 1 is different, yet closely related. It could be consistent with my view of Liz as a human but authentic replacement for a lost fourth podster. (Could the same thing have been done the other way around, with flats for 3 and 4 and a sharp for 1? No, that would yield Eb Ab G, which would look odd in geometry class. So there's only one way to do it, decreasing the odds that it's accidental.)

Those triangles shown repeatedly next to Max seem likely to refer to the Max/Liz/Tess problem. This was foreshadowed already in the Pilot.

(For a man of such rectitude, it has to be a right triangle.)

One last thing, from the geometry-class blackboard. (Sorry, conldn't find a picture.) That diagram with the circle + lines doesn't relate to any 10th-grade geometry proposition I can think of. But it is reminiscent of da Vinci's The Proportions of the Human Figure.
http://www.abcgallery.com/L/leonardo/leonardo21.html

Wow! So many visits yesterday and today from visitors who have always contributed to and supported the S&S Galleries! So many great posts and ideas. I’ll get back to some of them tomorrow ( ..that's me lately).

NEMO: It is so good to see you here again. It’s been awhile. Thank you so much for posting about the notes from the blackboard behind Liz. What a coincidence. I was thinking about whether or not you might post this here. And here you are. I am going to have to think about this and look up the harmonics of the Chakras again as well as the Lydian mode.

Interesting, when I looked at the chalkboard letters next to Max, I was mentally seeing that ‘A’ , just as the triangle next to it, as a Greek letter ‘delta’ or a reference to change. What do you think? I can’t think of how this might alter the interpretation.

Also coincidence, I was in the bookstore last Sunday and I saw three things in an Da Vinci art book that I have been looking for to post here. I did not see, and did not think about, the ‘Proportions of the Human Figure’ drawing for which you provided a link. Very good pick up, Nemo. And thank you for this link (I LOVE this website).

I think an equilateral triangle is the ‘right’ triangle for Max I did not see the episode with the geometry class lesson.

What I see in the books in the bookstore was:
Da Vinci drawings of triangles that are quite similar to Michael’s drawings.

I was also going to refer to the paintings of St John the Apostle who is portrayed with his index finger pointing up, a gesture mirrored by Max in the PILOT episode.
Interesting.

And most important, the da Vinci sketches of men, women, pregnant women and fetuses in utero that may have been some inspiration to the artistic designers for the ‘metal book’ etchings (just as they may have been for the Greetings from Earth etch-a-sketches). Do you think some of the episode creators/designers have been into Da Vinci?

I am searching for is a da Vinci sketch that may have been a source model for the 12-sided granolith (sacred geometry?). It would be really nice if there were season 2 screen caps available, including this chamber.

Rosta

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~

ETRUSCAN ALPHABET LINK http://sr10.xoom.com/pdictus/alphabet.html

Does anyone with perfect pitch know what notes are played by the digereedoo instrument that heralds shapeshifters and other mysterious happenings? It would be interesting; I wouldn't be surprised if there were a lot of flats since it's definitely a minor sound.

Perhaps all the triangles were foreshadowing the granolith?

When I was a little girl I wanted to be Leonardo Da Vinci when I grew up... anyway, as with most portraits by most artists, the Mona Lisa and others by him are said to resemble their creator. This could be true of the Tess Book characters. I'm not sure where this leads...but who made the book?

Now I think I posted this on LIZ IMPRT THREAD but I am not sure but the LETTERS PSAT keep coming up repeatedly.

I noticed on Topolsky arrival in MORNING AFTER PSAT was visible and in MONSTERS when they were watching Maria fall and Liz says to Maria choose your PSAT word Maria I am not forgiving this for a very long time. I notice when Max is talking to Maria about not knowing how to make these important decisions and about being a leader PSAT is in between the two of them again in ASK NOT.
Now I know how sophisticated you all are could you please come up with WHAT THIS MEANS? ROSTA? NEMO? QFANNY? SHAPESHIFTER?

OK, I have been thinking really hard about why Nasedo couldn't be revived in the pod chamber. My answer was revealed to me via the four square symbol. (I just posted all the four square signs over on Rosta's thread.) You have the 4 squares plus the cross. The cross makes each square seperated from the other. The cross gives the square individualism. The cross is the key to the podsters. Take a look at the old four square symbol and how each podster stand in relationship with each other.
The way they are standing seems like their natural balance. Pre-Tess Roswell often showed Michael-Isabel always sitting together across from Max. Tess takes her place next to Max and completes the cross. I think their positions are important! And are needed when healing. It would seem that the "cross" in the old symbol showed how each side was balanced against one another. If Liz = cross, she is the one that is hold the podsters together.

At all the "healings" Liz has been present. Even in Balanced when RiverDog told her she would have to find her own way. When the podsters heal Nasedo, they go back to their positions: Max's knee is turned to face Isabel. Isabel and Max are crossing one another. Michael and Tess take up the end positions. Michael is far enough around that he seems to be crossed by all three of the podsters. In order to heal, it seems that the four podsters need to position Tess-Max opposite Michael-Isabel.

Now, let's look at the screencap for the healing in Ask Not.

The are not in the correct position. Also look at the pods in the background. The cross that once showed how the podsters intersect one another has changed to the "new" position: The cross now defines each of them as individuals. And there is no one (Liz) in the pod chamber representing the cross. This is why the healing did not work.

Because of your interest in the Etruscans, I thought I would point this out:

If I remember right, the insignia of the Womens Army Corps, as seen on Dixie (Col. Cassidy's secretary, played by Emilie de Ravin), is of an Etruscan warrior.

Lets go back to language... please don't run and hide, I'll keep this short. Rosta, I looked at the Etruscan alphabet, and I can definitely see some similarities to some of the symbols. I also found a great site on ancient languages http://rabbitmoon.home.mindspring.com/asw/ws_types.html

In my surfing through the different alphabets/symbols in these languages, I was struck that the Roswell writing seems to be made up of 3 styles. This is my purely gestalt take on the whole thing. 1.Letters/symbols that come from a Phoenician root, and still have some familiarity for us today.
2. A stick and dot symbol system - can you tell I'm not a linguist (I thought of braille, but it's not an option). There's a small similarity to some of the older asian languages.
3. Scientific or technical shorthand symbols, e.g.,electric circuit schematics, equilibrium symbols etc..

It really is a strange mix.

Another fun site for the interpretation of symbols is http://www.symbols.com/graphicsearch.html It just takes a bit of patience locating the symbol you're interested in.

Still cogitating, but not yet enlightened...

SF

SF. I think that the book is meant to be read like brialle. Why are there holes in the metal? Why is the book metal anyway. So fingers will not accidently tear the pages while reading?

The reason I exluded braille is more the look of their alphabet than the feel. It's a formalized 6 dot system made up of 2 columns and 3 rows. I debated making a filled column of dots equivalent to a line, and then some of the Roswell line and dot symbols are the same as my modified Braille symbols. But that seemed like a bit of a stretch to me. Take a look at
http://www.brailleauthority.org/def.html

I'm not sure that Roswell's writing was intended to be read by feel like Braille. Most of the cave map is a "visual" message, only the stones and the depressions they were inserted into are 3 dimensional. Like you said, the book is the most obvious indicator that their language could be read by touch. Having looked at human braille, I'm struck by how difficult it would be to read the Roswell book by touch. They're complex symbols, they have no uniformity in structure, they seem big. At a practical level, you'd want an average finger tip or even better a child's fingertip to be able to completely cover a symbol. All that aside, we have no evidence to date that blindness is common in aliens.
Of course, reading the book by touch may have nothing to do being blind. Maybe having two "cues", sight and touch simultaneously, is necessary to awaken their memories, giving them a deeper reading of the text.

Like you, I am intrigued that the book's letters are punched out of metal. Maybe Jenlev is right (page 1, this thread) and the aliens just wave their index finger over the text and that's the way they write. Or maybe the designer who created the book is a "negative space junkie" and the way the letters are formed is irrelevant.

The fact that the book is made out of metal is also intriguing. It seems a bit of an overkill if the book only needed to survive 50 years. Juniper on the SF of R of 47 thought the book was a plot device that has lived out it's usefulness and that we will never hear about it again. I do wonder if that wont be true.

SF

quote:Originally posted by SF:
Hi All
Lets go back to language... ...I also found a great site on ancient languages http://rabbitmoon.home.mindspring.com/asw/ws_types.html

Thank you for posting this site. I think folks will enjoy it. I am very familiar with this site (and I highly recommend the Asian and Mayan language sections), but I had not gotten around to posting the link on the S&S thread before.

quote:
In my surfing through the different alphabets/symbols in these languages, I was struck that the Roswell writing seems to be made up of 3 styles.

1.Letters/symbols that come from a Phoenician root, and still have some familiarity for us today.
2. A stick and dot symbol system -
There's a small similarity to some of the older asian languages.
3. Scientific or technical shorthand symbols, e.g.,electric circuit schematics, equilibrium symbols etc..

I totally agree with you, SF. I also believe that there are at least 3 systems here, and at least 3 levels of communication and intent.

neurochemical stimulation (via retinal- visual cortex path? entoptic function?)

location specific (reference to a particular place? direction? The pictoral representations may also fall in this category)

podster specific (tag? unique identifier? specific visual message that requires location specificity?

The key is that they are human familiar, therefore possibly ancient language roots (Phoenecian, early Greek, Etruscan,Runic) are likely. I do see possible ancient Asian language similarities. This is interesting in light of the eastern elements introduced in Roswell.

Also (refer to page 1 of this thread) an ancient historian or two reported that the Etruscans themselves fancied that their origins were from the far east, that they were the descendants of a migration that began with peoples from far, far east, well before the mythical origins from Asia Minor. I found that to be fascinating.

My sense has been that the definition of what is 'alien' is a root theme in Roswell if there are alien descendants of ancient colonizers. There are any number of evolutionary and scifi explanations for homo sapiens.

quote:
It really is a strange mix.

Absolutely. I have mentioned similarities to
-ancient (various) writing systems
-music symbols
-weather symbols
-hobo symbols (including directions,
and warnings)
-scientific
-alchemical
-punctuation/stop or start codes/'primer'

More of the recent symbols (ie, as seen in the season 2 promos) are a combination of aegean, mayan, and native american origin or plain ole' distorted computer logos. Some appear quite modern compared with the metal book symbols. I've noted that some of the motifs are 'plant' related and, like a few of the other symbols (such as the spiral) are quite ubiquitous.

I am intrigued that there may be musical components (ie, harmonics) that are podster specific. This ties in nicely with CHAKRAS (number 7) and vortices or 'sacred places' (the number 12 comes into play here).

quote:
Another fun site for the interpretation of symbols is http://www.symbols.com/graphicsearch.html

Thanks again, SF. Interesting that we have honed in on similar sites. I had this on the first S&S thread and forgot to repost it. Leet me particularly direct attention to the page on the pentacle and other associated Venus symbols.

quote:
Still cogitating, but not yet enlightened...
SF

Here, here. But I sure have learned a lot trying to decipher them. Mainly, the symbols are fairly ubiquitious and are more than likely 'distortions' of familiar symbols from many ages and cultures, and a mixture. If you have a chance, look at the Incan textile pattern links I have on page one. I have not posted any links (yet) on killim rugs from Kashmir. Very interesting.

Rosta ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

quote:Originally posted by SF:
Take a look at
http://www.brailleauthority.org/def.html
I'm not sure that Roswell's writing was intended to be read by feel like Braille. Most of the cave map is a "visual" message, only the stones and the depressions they were inserted into are 3 dimensional.

Of course, reading the book by touch may have nothing to do being blind. Maybe having two "cues", sight and touch simultaneously, is necessary to awaken their memories, giving them a deeper reading of the text.
...

I agree, SF, and I followed the logic of your explanations that tend to suggest that the cut outs may not have the function of being read 'Braille-like, but that any touch system may not have anything to do with the sight sense, at least as we know it. Touch may be the important sense.

Thank you for another great link. I learned quite a bit about Braille from reading.

quote:Like you, I am intrigued that the book's letters are punched out of metal. Maybe Jenlev is right (page 1, this thread) and the aliens just wave their index finger over the text and that's the way they write.

Perhaps the cut out plates are meant to be used as filters (ie, for light) and/or placed over something that 'decodes' in some way. I'm imagining the scene in Raiders..Ark where the sunlight is focused through and dispersed from the crystal? on that staff.

I tend to believe that Tess is (1)a rather ancient (earthly?) lonely soul, or (2) one of very few true aliens in Roswell at least, and that she is not a skin. The metal plates may even predate her existence. I believe she

I think she hooked up with the (probably) more or less ancinet EdHarding (who does not know/recognize the podsters at the time of TLV, hence is unlikely to have done anything related to the pods or pod chambers and knows nothing of the metal books). Tess may have just found them in her travels.

quote: Juniper on the SF of R of 47 thought the book was a plot device that has lived out it's usefulness and that we will never hear about it again. I do wonder if that wont be true.SF

Perhaps true in large part. I think they may have discarded the 'book' and revised the symbol system. I was despairing that we might lose the Native American associations, but now I have a stron suspicion we will see Riverdog again. Perphas like the symbols, good things come in threes. I think there are at least 3 shapeshifters around.

A thought: perhaps the communication is meant for different beings (hey there! if you can't read, look at the pictures)?

Rosta~~~~~ ~~~~~

cool reference to the raiders of the lost ark! it really speaks to the issue that our cultural concept of writing has been so influenced by it's history...a history that has utilized a somewhat limited approach to writing and communication?

so the book and the letters and the way that the book works may be multi-dimensional (pun intended). perhaps one places the book on some part of the granolith base and it communicates in some combination with the granolith and the room it's in? some sort of multimedia? maybe the book itself functions as some sort of key?

imagine if we didn't know about cd's or tapes and discovered them...but without the media for playing them, what would we think? how would we understand them? perhaps the book only "works" when combined with the proper "machinery" or "biological" entity for interpreting it?

jenlev

ps. it would be interesting to see how the metal alien 'written' book compares with grandma claudia's book? i think someone posted on that before but it came to mind thinking about what rosta said about the age of the alien book.

Grandma Claudia's Book –from Leaving Normal

The Metal Alien Book – from Four Square

Max reading Atherton's Book - reading - one of my favorite "guilty pleasures"--

In the WR, Pierce tells Max about studying all of the info collected on the
one alien held captive in the same room. Couldn't Nasado have accessed this info when
passing as Pierce? ...knowing what your enemy knows seems like a good defense.

Being a book-addict and info-junkie.....I'd love to see the writers bring some threads
about these back into the story.

All this discussion of plants and symbols reminds me of how good Jason/Mx looks
surrounded by green....drool picture follows:

So enjoying this thread and all the input!!!

Star_Dust2/Nanette

Screencaps and pic from crashdown.com

....which way did they go, which way did they go......

Dust all over the place!!!

The insignia has a five-pointed star within a large winged 8. See (for example) http://www.8thairforce.com/

At first I had just assumed this was set decoration, and it may well be; but it seems significant to me that they were NOT just lights: you can recognize several of the alien symbols that have been flashing in series in the ending of the promos (with the 4 podsters posed outside the BatCave) - - the symbols that morph into the large word "Roswell". (I recall specifically a filled triangle with a dot placed in varying positions, as on a clock, maybe.)

So the light displays appear to me to be some kind of readout, an instrument panel - - to monitor and maintain the pods?

And I have pointed out on other sci-fi threads, that the symbols Max & Liz saw on the cave wall seemed "familiar" to all of the 3 aliens - - as the Whirlwind Galaxy Symbol had. Michael even figured out how to "navigate" them. But the symbols in Tess's BOOK seemed different, and mystifying to the podsters. The incubator readouts seem akin to these. So maybe there are two groups at work and two groups afoot, with questionable allegiances?...

Jenlev said
so the book and the letters and the way that the book works may be multi-dimensional (pun intended). perhaps one places the book on
some part of the granolith base and it communicates in some combination with the granolith and the room it's in? some sort of
multimedia? maybe the book itself functions as some sort of key?

Your talk about Raiders' staff and needing the correct "technology" to be able to understand an "artifact" made me think of yet another interpretation of those punched out pages. Could they be alien punch cards... Is there an insertion slot in the granolith?

SF

Thanks Nemo for posting this information.
The 8th airforce insignia from http://www.8thairforce.com/

From the proto-canaanite page on the ancient languages website http://rabbitmoon.home.mindspring.com/asw/ws_types.html This doesn't mean anything, I just thought it was interesting.

Modified version of the cavemap (crashdown), showing the position of the 8 symbol, equidistant between the base corners of the triangle.

Notice Michael standing in the center of the triangle (crashdown).

Image of Brody and the alien beeper (crahsdown), notice that his index finger is over the spiral shape that's missing in the cave map, but next to the 8 in all other versions of the cavemap.

Is it significant that:
The beeper went off when Brody's index finger was over the spiral sign.
Hal (of the 8th airforce) told Michael the story.
Michael is the one who had the first vision of the map.
Michael has navigated from the map.

Does the spiral sign = Michael? Will he be torn between the two forces, i.e. the position of the spiral between the galaxy symbol (some think signifying Max's people) and the shockwave symbol (some think signifying the evil aliens)?

As usual, I'm just speculating. Rosta, I have a neuro question. Artisitic ability is usually considered a function of the right hemisphere of the brain. Which side would be better at spatial orientation and mapping? I'm just thinking about Michael's art and navigation skills.

SF

sf: very interesting idea...perhaps the granolith and the book interact on a molecular level? or the granolith just reads the cut out patterns on the book? perhaps it utilizes the images in the book to identify the podsters as not "just anyone" can make the granolith work?

jenlev

ps. thanks for the images you posted above! i wonder if the "alien beeper" also has multiple uses and capabilities? (like the granolith) might it be a communication device as well as a weapon? if so, perhaps it was (as i think you suggest), made to specifically target the podsters depending on how it's held and what symbol is touched on it?

NEMO: Thank you so much for that link to the 8th air force patch. When you have time, could you please add a post about the 509th here (I saw it on another thread that might slip away). And thanks for the information about the pin on Tess' uniform. I did not notice until you mentioned it. I had a link to patches on the first S&S thread because I noted that a lot of patches had interesting 5,6,7,8,and 12 point stars and one patch particularly looked like the 'chrysler' symbol. I will try to locate it again. I recall I went looking for military insignia because on of the 'new' symbols had double bars.

WHO LET THE BEHR OUT!!!

STAR_DUST@: What can I say? You did it again. I just love your green thumb. That is a beautiful green plant. We like green things on this thread I liked your post and choice of 'book' related screencaps very much. Just what I like. I'm glad wou are finding enjoyment here.

JENLEV: excellent points as usual, particularly about the tape and cd analogy.. Good iseas about the possible molecular interations required and the possible multifunctional 'beepers'. I also like the multidimensional use idea, SF.

SHAPESHIFTER, thank you for sharing with us MICHELLEinYONKERS' post.

SF: Beautiful to look at and fascinating post. About the 8 symbol: I need to study your photo further. Was Tess trying to tell us in EOTW that her symbol is the Z-like one?

I'll get back to you on the nwuro question, but the quick and dirty answer is that the right brain 'association' oriented function may also apply to Michaels special gifts. More complicated to explain, and part of a more complete explanation, is the right frontal-limbic system contributions to the capacity for internal cognitive mapping and the autonomic , emotional, motivational and associational parameters. Perhpas they all have an ectra extra layers of neocortex.

I'll come back later.

Rosta

See the four-diamond pattern on Michael's chest? Throughout season 1, this was everywhere -- on shirts, sweaters, necklaces, blankets (ITW), even embossed on the sheriff's couch. (Also on a sign behind Michael in the morgue in WR, cf. http://www.orcbs.msu.edu/Chemical/nfpa/nfpa.html ) I think this represents the four people AlienMom told about, who were supposed to become four podsters. Instead, at first we got only three, M/M/I. This is symbolized by a three-diamond picture at the Evans house where they hang out. (In the hall between M/I's rooms -- seen in RD, for example.) A fourth diamond is at the cafe, often seen right next to Liz. (Or the diamond-shaped window behind which we often see her.)

Season 2 addendum: in the Pilot that diamond on the cafe door is just marked in color on a square window. Later, the window itself is diamond shaped. Now we can see that this change was a historic restoration -- that's how Pete Parker had it in 1947.

Dedicated Fan
Posts: 204
Registered: Jun 00
I haven't been keeping up with this thread as well as I should, so all apologies if something similar has been brought up...
There's a religious connotation (well, several, but one in particular) I keep thinking of from EOTW.

Attempting to rememeber my Christian Parochial school upbringing here...the Bible says Jesus Christ learned of His very important destiny at age 12, but the Bible jumps from almost this exact point until we see Christ again, a man in His early 30s who has apparently already accepted and basically made peace with His "destiny". We don't read about the (more than likely) very human aspect of coming to terms with this "destiny".... the struggle between 12 and 30.

Max learns about his "destiny" at 16/17 (?), a destiny, which for the entirety of Season 2 he's basically refused to accept (fully anyway). EOTW we see Max (presumedly in his early 30s) who has come to Liz to beg her to help him push Max2k to Tess (a man encouraging "destiny").

So between 16-yr-old (future) Max learning about his "destiny", Ros shows us EOTW, Max's breaking point (at 30?) of being forced to go back and change the past to save the future (more than likely, a decision which took MUCH struggling to come by - with Max himself as well as the incidents surrounding his *defining* decision)... Max (more or less) has accepted his "destiny" (at least most of it - if that means Max2k being with Tess, so be it).

Granted, there are factors differentiating JC from FMax. JC was sacrificed for the sins of the world. FM sacrificed himself and his world to "alter" the timeline and save it (FM's world apparently should have never been). Max's foolhardiness in choosing Liz over everything else important -initially ignoring half of himself / not dealing with it- is the "sin" (gluttony?) which led to the destruction of the world? Liz herself is, of course, an extra factor in determining Max's "destiny" (regardless of what momogram did/didn't say), also differing Max from JC. Although both with the intent on saving humanity/Earth. Now I suppose, since we're dealing with a new timeline, anything is possible (Max eventually / inevitably choosing Liz won't be a "sin" this time?).

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this speculating, but it's just something I've been thinking about non-stop since watching EOTW (as well as Liz as the Virgin Mary theories, but that's for another thread I think ).

Melodious

Good catch. If Tess is indicated by the z-like symbol, and Michael by the spiral, then the fact that both those symbols occur on the same isoceles triangle on the alien beeper means there's some connection between them. Those are also the two oddball symbols in terms of location. I'm still pretty keen on the idea that M&T and Ma&I are from opposing factions originally. Maybe the beeper was made by Ma&I's faction, since to date we have no hint that they're indicated by any of those symbols.

SF

i expect and hope that the symbols will not be discarded by the writers/producers/directors etc.. given the recent episodes it makes sense that they will now begin to utilize the discovery and articulation (by the characters) of the symbols to support the storyline?

rosta (et. al.): about the grail and related themes; these are right on target...but i wonder, which hero story came first? where does the template originate from? or am i attempting the impossible task of looking upon the face of the actual archetype, rather like looking directly at the sun?

if the j.c. hero's journey is only 2000 years old, how far back do we have to go to find the first 'hero's journey' story that was handed down from one generation to another? (for example, gilgamesh) or did many stories emerge simultaneously in many cultures? if so; what does this tell us about the role of the hero's journey for all of the characters on roswell? and the task of being heroic in our own everyday lives?

also, i'm hoping this isn't too much of a tangent, but i've been reading the 'scifi of the end of the world' thread today and i'm wondering if anyone knows about the origin of the concept of time travel?

i've been thinking that the concept of time travel is like a magical talisman for the modern world. instead of magic boots, wands, rings we have this concept as a way to have wishes granted. so time travel becomes a way for people to 'wish' things to be right (again). and despite the scientific loopholes, the energy behind the idea seems firmly rooted in myth, magic, and hope. (sorry, i'm paraphrasing myself because i'm just brain dead this evening. )

anyway, when did the idea of time travel first appear in literature and storytelling? is there an ancient myth that involves time travel? i'm thinking there has to be, and my memory is on vacation at this time

jenlev

MARIA: ...Ok, so what were you guys talking about?

LIZ: Nothing.

GRANDMA: Boys.

MARIA: Oh...Kyle or Max?

LIZ: Thank you...

GRANDMA: Aha...Max.

LIZ: No...Max...he's so not possible. He's just like this whole different...

MARIA: Life form?

LIZ: Type.

GRANDMA: How intriguing.....

See the four shells in the background? One is different from the other three.
(Also, shells imply former lives, right?)

Fascinating questions. I agree that Rosta should repost her grail theories over here, and that we should explore some of your hero questions.

IMHO the hero myth predates written language. It grows out of the human animal's search for the alpha-male. I'm speaking of an alpha-male in biological sense, i.e., the leader of a troop of great apes. As agrarian societies developed (post 12000 BP), and humans in urbanized centers started living together at higher densities, they would no longer have lived in the type of small groups where the modern human brain evolved. To me, all human religions and myths have evolved out of this desire to reacquire the protector, leader, arbitrator, (we now call them heroes and gods) that at an intinctual/basic level we know we're missing. So, obviously, I believe the hero myth is an archetype.

I had to check the definition of an archtype. For anyone else who's a little fuzzy on it, here's one I found.

Jung's defintion of archetype from http://archetype.webjump.com/
"The writing of Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961) popularized the term "archetype" which he used in two meanings: first, "archetype" in Jung means "primordial image" that predates the recorded history of mankind; it is a universal and recurring image, pattern, or motif representing a typical human experience. Archetypes are spontaneous productions of the psyche, "inherited forms of psychic behavior" constituting the "collective unconscious" of the human race.
The second meaning of "archetype" in Jung is "mythological image"; for Jung,myths are not inventions but representations that reflect real, vital perceptions of the human psyche and express the manner in which people experience the world. In post-Jungian psychology, "archetype" came to mean the basic patterns of human consciousness."

[QUOTE]Originally posted by jenlev:

i've been thinking that the concept of time travel is like a magical talisman for the modern world. instead of magic boots, wands, rings we have this concept as a way to have wishes granted. so time travel becomes a way for people to 'wish' things to be right (again). and despite the scientific loopholes, the energy behind the idea seems firmly rooted in myth, magic, and hope. (sorry, i'm paraphrasing myself because i'm just brain dead this evening. )

anyway, when did the idea of time travel first appear in literature and storytelling? is there an ancient myth that involves time travel? i'm thinking there has to be...

I did some searching on the web. H.G. Wells wrote The Time Machine in 1895. According to this site, it's the first time travel story. http://www.time-travel.com/timetrav.htm
It looks like E. A. Poe did one too, which might predate Wells, but I don't know enough about the authors referenced to accurately place them historically. Here's a link to a book of short stories on Time Machines that lists all the authors included. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0786704934/qid=973270776/sr=1-6/002-5675790-9 986465
I think you're right that time travel has been around as an idea for longer than a century, but the way they would have moved through time would have been magical, not technological. Peter Pan is a bit of a time paradox. I can't date that off the top of my head either. I found Nova's site on Time Travel, it looks interesting. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/

I'm looking forward to other posts on this subject. Good idea to bring it up over here.

SF

hey sf, thank you for your post and the great links! and great thought about peter pan...although he is something of a 'puer eternus' i agree that he still represents the idea of a non-linear time line.

also, interesting about the difference between technologically supported time travel, and magically driven time hopping. it makes me think of the 'tamlin' myth, and the other celtic stories about how humans going into the fairy mound experience a 'normal' passage of time, and coming back out to find that 100's of years have passed in the 'real world'.

i agree about the hero story being a primal archetype...and i love your description of just how ancient it really is; and what it derives from.

perhaps it's the onset of the technological age, that has allowed time travel to become another tool for the hero on his/her journey?

although, i find the time travel question to be a bit like wondering who was the first person to decide to eat an artichoke...i mean, who said, "hey, see that funny looking plant? i'm going to eat that for lunch!" (better yet, who got the great idea to dip them in butter ) in other words, who were the first people to process consciously the idea of time travel? how much of the idea stems from an archetypal and cultural reaction/response to mortality?

by the way: in studying with a jungian i've learned about examining archetypes as 'fields'. we all have allignments to the archetypes, (hero, parent, trickster, child, etc.) the question is what type of connection or allignment is it? is it generative or non-generative. (is it an open system that supports growth and development or not?)

it strikes me that what we saw in 'the end of the world' was max exhibiting a non-generative allignment to the hero archetype. (rosta and others have written very well about this) by the end of the episode that seemed to be beginning to shift to a more generative allignment. i've wondered if part of max needed to develop some insight about was how his response to liz was mirroring tess's response to him?

jenlev

Jenlev,

I was also thinking about magical time hopping. Rip van Winkle came to mind. I liked what you said, "about how humans going into the fairy mound experience a 'normal' passage of time, and coming back out to find that 100's of years have passed in the 'real world'." It almost makes you wonder if the whole idea of relativity was latent in human minds, but it took Einstein to theorize it.

I have to say I love the first person who decided to eat an artichoke

Anyway, to get back to the first time travel story, it strikes me that the story teller would have to be capable of abstract thought. I don't think that's something we can pin-point, but we should be able to pin-point when humans started believing in an after-life (as you speculated, an "idea" that "stems from an archetypal and cultural reaction/response to mortality"). To me it's just a hop skip and a jump away from believing there is life after death, to having stories of the spirits of the dead coming back and bothering the living. The contexts of the stories are different, but there's still a lot of parallelism to time-travel stories.

I think you're right on the money that "it's the onset of the technological age, that has allowed time travel to become another tool for the hero on his/her journey." To steal a quote from Kzinti-Killer on the SF of EotW thread, A. Clarke said, "An alien technology sufficiently advanced would simply appear to be magic." To give that a slightly different spin, magical tools have lost their credibility as modern technology has made many magical processes mundane. You no longer need to be special or have a magic broomstick to fly, we can all hop on a plane and go anywhere in the world.

Thanks for explaining your Jungian theories so clearly. I'm heartened by the idea that Max will follow a generative hero archetype.

I really loved your comment about Max's response to Liz mirroring Tess' response to him. This season, I've noticed a lot of mirroring of ideas and themes. I don't know if they were there last season and I didn't pick them up, or if they're being highlighted this season. I wonder if they'll play more with the idea of mirroring, or a mirror image, as the season progresses. It would be kinda fun if the second pod set are mirror images of the first...

SF

sf: thank you! i appreciate your comments and feedback . also, thanks for bringing in kzinti-killer's quote from the sci-fi of the end of the world thread. it's also a great point.

i love what you wrote about humans first developing abstract reasoning, and when the concept of life after death first arose (no pun intended ) can you elaborate on this?

interesting how stories about life after death and time travel often include pitfalls for the unwary; and rarely if ever turn out as expected? as if they become morality plays about nothing ever coming too easily?

so often the travelers in time end up looking like hapless victims of the cosmic trickster (like rip van winkle whom you mentioned).

and what you said regarding relativity: "relativity was latent in human minds, but it took einstein to theorize it." that's a great thought! say more!

it's as if as a race we were waiting to grow into the possibilities of time travel and technology; and prepared ourselves over the centuries with ideas that paralelled this to some degree? or perhaps as a race we have 'known' on some level that these concepts regarding mortality, time and relativity were available for exploration on many levels? and interconnected as well?

either way, as a culture we are still entranced by the idea of magic, even though technology is all around us. certainly it might be easier to magically transport to another place rather then deal with downtown traffic and plane delays?

i agree that there are many mirror images presented this season; i gather that they now have enough foundation from season one to really bring this out? also, the idea of pattern repetition (mirroring of ideas and themes) serves to bring the characters further along in their journeys in a very powerful way. and it allows them to develop a deeper level of insight as well?

regarding the jungian theories: they aren't mine so much as what i've learned through consultations and study with a jungian over the past several years. it's a way of applying ideas about chaos and field theory, quantum physics, biology, etc. to human interaction and development. there are lots of folks exploring this; and it's perhaps not what we have come to know as 'traditionally jungian'

jenlev

Hi everyone

Hi NEMO, Thank you very much for the 'diamond'. have been questioning the diamond symbolism and occurances. We can always count on your eagle eyes to search and catalogue. Posting here allows others to reference since this thread has a long, but slower, shelf life.
It would be nice to have my own web site. Soon. Someone (please identify/post) referred to diamonds and the number 2, particularly the 2 of diamonds as seen in ITTW. NEMO refers to the diamond window of the swinging door of the Crashdown and that we often see Liz framed in it. Indeed, I was looking for the '2 of diamonds' screencap with Liz and Maria framed in the window (?BlindDate, maybe).

My interest in the DIAMOND is related to Tibetan Buddhism. *A type of Tibetan Buddhism is TANTRIC, also known as VAJRAYANAor THE DIAMOND PATH**. It symbolizes (thunderbolt, vajra-diamond) a persons essential being, the indestructable part. Tantrism is one of the spiritual means of reaching that essence.

This may be one of many layers of meaning associated with the diamond symbol in Roswell. Note, also, that connected diamond shapes in Native American culture is a symbol of bean or squash plants or even the snake.

However, the high degree of sexuality and wroticism in Roswell may be associated with TANTRISM, which, conincidentally, is associated with the bean plant. Hmmm. Perhaps someone can post on tantrism and/or if someone has a webpage, might kindly contribute some pictures.

I certainly have attributed significance to the emphasis on green beans.

I also have something on the Buddhist 8-fold path I will get to later (unless someone else wants to)

Something else of significance, IMO. In CRAZY, there is a scene where we see Topolsky and then, before the cut to the next scene, we see one specific diamond fence-like motif or, if you will, a possible double helix-like shape, which almost fills the screen.

There is no screencap that I can find, so if anyone can capture this, I would be grateful. However, we can specifically see this motif again right above Diane Evans in the cafe at the end of SH, inside the V-shaped wedge of light, with Diane at the vertex.

This may be quite a statement. Is this a double helix reference? I posted this on the last S&S&B thread. Perhaps Diane is one of sources of genetic material in Roswell.
(Perhaps also Shiela and other women in Roswell have been abducted- by aliens or the government- and had their ova harvested? implanted? implanted then removed?? etc).
Artemis (DianA) is Venus' sister. Artemis loves red meat. Don't know about beans

Stay tuned, I'll be back to out in some screencaps including many of the diamond lattice screencaps. You'll be surprised how many of these there are, in addition to the windmill towers.

SF, JENLEV, have mercy on my brain

my 3 braincells trying to catch up.

Fantastic posts, just what I love. I'm still working on the internal neuro cognitive map, SF. I've also been thinking about the capacity to imagine time and space travel, spirit walking, meditation, etc, and the development of the limbic system.

~~~Rosta~~~~ ~~~~~

**Reference: Tibetan Buddhism (TimeLife Book)

Tantric Buddhism http://www.acay.com.au/~usana/buddha/h_tantric_frames.htm

The 8 fold path
Tthe 4 truths, etc http://www.acay.com.au/~usana/buddha/buddhism_philosophy1.htm

Home Page: http://www.acay.com.au/~usana/buddha/index.htmVajrayana

rosta, thanks for the links you posted. interesting that the podsters don't seem to question the human nature of their 'essential being'? so far they have not been portrayed as curious about the origins of their human dna?

although it makes sense that they might avoid that given the potential implications? they might find it terrifying to consider and a huge trigger for guilt and ambivalence regarding their alien heritages? either way, their hero's journey requires some degree of examination regarding their human dna.

by the way rosta, i think you have way more then three brain cels, and they are not at all snail like in speed or accuracy!

and rosta, i'm looking forward to reading more about what you said regarding the "capacity to imagine time and space travel, spirit walking, meditation, etc, and the development of the limbic system." thanks!

jenlev

Rosta, I'm also looking forward to what you have to say. I reread your plant theories a few days ago, and something is starting to percolate. Beans, embryos, peas in pods, legumes, endosperm, germplasm (great site), genetic engineering, naturally occuring successful hybrids. In addition to the plant imagery you've already pointed out, our pod people have some pretty major plant overtones...

Now after the "Harvest" we have even more plant imagery, with husks and spores. Parasitism is an interesting angle as well.

Nemo, did you notice that Michael's shirt front had a symbol on his right near the collar. It wasn't a logo I recognized. At first I thought it was a diamond shape, I'm not sure now. Courtney also had a curvy design along the neckline of her shirt. In the final scene, a part of the design is clearly visible. If memory serves me, it looked like a curly "Y". Courtney's probably doesn't indicate anything, but Michael's seemed pretty intentional.

SF

Anatomically modern people (Homo sapiens sapiens) were burying their dead with grave goods about 30,000 years ago (35000 BP to 10,000 BP). This is also the same time period that you start seeing cave paintings. As a non-anthroplogist I feel comfortable saying that by 30,000 years ago Hss was capable of abstract thought, and believed in something after death.

I was looking at some rock art sites, and I got the Roswell chills. The cave map is so rock artish. The hand prints. Take a look below. I'm sure Rosta already brought this up, but this just reinforced some of the ancient imagery for me again.

No date, but these stencils are from the Central Queensland Highlands, Australia. http://www.une.edu.au/Arch/ROCKART/Analysis.html#Elk

It would be great if amx would come and give her 2c on this.

SF

hey sf, that's a great photo! it also reinforces the whole idea of archetypally driven imagery throughout history. the image of the hand and of power being derived through the hand seems to be everywhere!

jenlev

quote:Originally posted by SF:
Anatomically modern people (Homo sapiens sapiens) were burying their dead with grave goods about 30,000 years ago (35000 BP to 10,000 BP). This is also the same time period that you start seeing cave paintings. As a non-anthroplogist I feel comfortable saying that by 30,000 years ago Hss was capable of abstract thought, and believed in something after death.

Great point, SF. Where I was thinking about the limbic system. This period you give is about the time that the Neanderthal 'disappeared' or died away, with many different theories for the disappearance and the appearance of Homo sapiens sapiens. I'm being very quick and simplistic here because it is so late. But what I want to get back with later this week is the contribution of the evolution of the human brain, particularly the amygdala and possibly more neocortex.

The limbic system/temporal lobe development may be the link to the capacity to experience the 'spiritual' 'ritual' and 'religious' feelings. Stimulation of the temporal lobes and amygdala, as is well known, may be associated with the feelings of heightened religiousity, the attribution of heightened significance of objects or of self (ie, deep cosmic significance or purpose), out-of-body experience, euphoria or ecstasy, and perhaps spirit walking. New agers may add astral projection, telekinesis, and similar capabilities.

The limbic system may be the etiology of religious experience, the spiritual or divine, or to the 'other world' experience. This does not deny or confirm religious beliefs. Theoretically is only suggests that the capacity to 'invent' religion is inherent or that the brain is wired to receive 'the message' (the GOD MODULE = temporal lobes/limbic system).

This (limbic system, spirituality, psychic ability) is the subject of rigorous scientific research at major teaching medical centers, with textbooks written, and syndromes identified (since early last century;see Gerschwind's syndrome). I'll put up a link for the brain institute at UCSF? or UCSD, I can't recall which). This is not just new age stuff. Extremely fascinating stuff.

The relation to the subject at hand is the beginning of the capacity to perceive 'other time' 'other place' and means of traversing the barriers to the otherworld(s). As SF and JENLEV alluded to above, the earliest creation myths may be close to the first time travel/dimensional travel stories (written or oral). The creation myths are variable, but many conceive that the first ones came from another world or place and that the spiritual beings went on to occupy another plane of existence. Or that, in the beginning, there was chaos from which the material world arose and then the first being(s) created the people.

I need to edit/clarify this later.

Thank you for this great picture SF and this link.

SHAPESHIFTER, your request will take a bit of time unless someone else has that thread archived.

~~~~Rosta~~~~ ~~~~

Sorry this is quick and hurried. It is very late (?early).

Hey Rosta, fascinating post. I'm looking forward to your links. Do you know if anyone is studying people who show stigmata? Of course, the evolutionary biologist in me had to ask the question why 30-40 tya there's this big change in human behaviour. My strength is in early hominid evolution, so when it gets this modern, I have to go digging.

I thought this site did a really good job covering the difficulties in theorizing how and why the human brain evolved. It seemed fairly jargon free. So for anyone who's interested, here it is, http://faculty.ed.uiuc.edu/g-cziko/without_miracles/05.html#Heading2.

What I took home relative to what we're talking about is there appears to be a correlation to increase in brain size (neo-cortex, neocerebellum), and language development.

I also found this paper that I really enjoyed, but since I'm not up on this literature, I don't know how "out there" it is. http://www.cogsci.soton.ac.uk/bbs/Archive/bbs.dunbar.html. It's about "The co-evolution of neocortex size, group size and language in humans."

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
Theoretically is only suggests that the capacity to 'invent' religion is inherent or that the brain is wired to receive 'the message' (the GOD MODULE = temporal lobes/limbic system).

That's a great way of putting it.

SF

regarding the development of the limbic system and human consciousness...it sounds as if there is a theme of people being able to imagine a time both future and past "other them the immediate time of NOW".

it also sounds like the developments you are referring to suggest the capacity to imagine something other then just "self"? yet it's striking that as a culture we seem to spend so much time and effort trying to get back to the ability of "being in the now". interesting if the capacity to balance these different aspects of functioning will turn out to be the next developmental stage for humans? (or is that too optimistic?)

anyway, thanks for the links and great ideas! i'm going away on vacation, but will look forward to seeing where this discussion has gone when i get back!

jenlev

Ros- I am sorry, I have been neglecting your thread.

Nemo, thanks for the posts on diamonds!

I asked on Liz's thread if the symbols on the beeper could represent all the different factions, but after reading about the spiral for Michael and the Z for Tess it seems to me that it really represents the aliens. There are six symbols. What do the other two represent then? Tictac or Harding. Someone else? Humans?

I'll hae to do a better job keeping up on this thread. As always, fascinating stuff.

Hey shapeshifter

I loved your comment on time travel indicating conscience and guilt and the wish to go back and undo. I think you've just come up with the essence of season 2. It's all about change, either changing the past, or changing the future by making sure that history doesn't repeat itself.

Here are some points brought up on the sf of Harvest thread that I thought would be good for the discussion over here.

Valentifan posted: quote:
In the traditional horror genre there is an element of the chaos of nature and ultimate decay, as represented by children of the corn, animated corpses, sticky swampy out of control plant growth, and so forth. It's the dark world of dissolution at constant war with the brief flickering light of consciousness, which is why it frightens. With all the plant references coming out, I think the Skins' Stephen King village has a bit of this too.

Rosta has been pointing out the plant images and metaphors for a while now. They've been increasing this season. On a really simplistic level, plants = growth = change.

Bluecommon posted: quote:
It's depressing to think that such highly evolved creatures, who have achieved technology that allows for time travel, cloning and God knows what else, may be so primitive when it comes to feelings, power struggles, etc. I would have thought that evolution in one area would come hand in hand with spiritual, emotional development. If that was the case, but I doubt it, Max's job is even bigger than I expected. He'll have to teach them maturity, soul searching, empathy and compassion. No easy tasks. Of course, if anybody can, he will!

Valentifan posted: quote:
I do hope we get to see Max heal these enemies, teach them soul-searching and compassion. As you say, if anybody can do it, he's the one. I love that kid. But wow, are there some rough times ahead for him.

Tepp posted quote:
This is one of the main reasons I suspect that Max was indeed a good king, but like all truly good rulers his weakness was that he had no way to counter the dark bargain. He would have asked his subjects to be like him, willing to sacrifice some of their own interests for the good of all. Conversely, the dark prince promises each one what he desires most, regardless of the consequences to anyone else. Of course, the dark one is really only interested in serving himself, but by the time his followers find that out it's too late for them.

I'm curious as to why so many here have voiced the opinion that Max was probably a bad or weak ruler. I don't think Max's fascination with JFK was an accident. Max's rule would almost certainly resemble the real "Camelot," where all worked together for the common good. Certainly, Max is like the boy who accidentally pulls the sword from the stone and discovers much to his surprise that he is heir to the kingdom. Like the fabled Arthur, Max is more a healer and unifier than a warrior -- a distinction Michael understands all too well. For Max, power is not something to be coveted or sought; it is a responsibility to be shouldered. Isn't that what we're supposed to want?

I was so impressed with all these posts, they really crystallized the whole change theme for me. The pod squad is getting a second chance at their lives, but this time they're supposed to get it right with apparently limited information on how they screwed up the last time. Shapeshifter, it really does seem like they're modeling Run Lola Run, or any classic time travel story where you lose the future memories every time the clock resets. Only for them it's their past life memories.

I'm reposting jenlev's questions from the start of this discussion (page 3) more to refocus me than anything else (yes, I know I'm a chronic tangent taker). I'm also hoping this will encourage more people to step into the fray, everyone is welcome. Her questions seem to be precipitated out of Valentifan, tepp, melodious1 and Rosta's heroic myth discussion from the sf of TEOTW (fantastic posts again guys).

I'm looking forward to everyone's posts.

SF

quote:Originally posted by jenlev:

rosta (et. al.): about the grail and related themes; these are right on target...but i wonder, which hero story came first? where does the template originate from? or am i attempting the impossible task of looking upon the face of the actual archetype, rather like looking directly at the sun?

if the j.c. hero's journey is only 2000 years old, how far back do we have to go to find the first 'hero's journey' story that was handed down from one generation to another? (for example, gilgamesh) or did many stories emerge simultaneously in many cultures? if so; what does this tell us about the role of the hero's journey for all of the characters on roswell? and the task of being heroic in our own everyday lives?

also, i'm hoping this isn't too much of a tangent, but i've been reading the 'scifi of the end of the world' thread today and i'm wondering if anyone knows about the origin of the concept of time travel?

i've been thinking that the concept of time travel is like a magical talisman for the modern world. instead of magic boots, wands, rings we have this concept as a way to have wishes granted. so time travel becomes a way for people to 'wish' things to be right (again). and despite the scientific loopholes, the energy behind the idea seems firmly rooted in myth, magic, and hope. (sorry, i'm paraphrasing myself because i'm just brain dead this evening. )

anyway, when did the idea of time travel first appear in literature and storytelling? is there an ancient myth that involves time travel? i'm thinking there has to be, and my memory is on vacation at this time

jenlev
[/B]

For some time now I have been melting my brains into a fine goo over what's in the other four pods. So this paragraph of Campbell's jumped right off the page and into my face:

"The hero, whether god or goddess, man or woman, the figure in a myth or the dreamer of a dream, discovers and assimilates his opposite (his own unsuspected self) either by swallowing it or being swallowed. One by one the resistances are broken. He must put aside his pride, his virtue, beauty and life, and bow or submit to the absolutely intolerable. Then he finds that he and his opposite are not of differing species, but of one flesh."

There's that whole creepy eating idea that Nasedo brought up I think in S&B (our enemies showing up and having us for lunch, or words to that effect), plus something "digestive" in the way the Skin entities occupied their husks from within, parasitically--could this be a war of vegetable against animal? Is chlorophyll the reason for "little green men?" Just kidding on that one, but still...

Campbell was also referring to Jonah and belly of the whale stories. Anybody here read Robert Silverberg's first Majipoor trilogy? Similar themes--loving pacifistic style of ruling complementing willingness to use force when necessary, war against Metamorphs, i.e. Shapeshifters, and in the first book the hero Lord Valentine ends up in the belly of a sea dragon.

But I digress. The last line of the quote is the most significant for me. He and his opposite are not of differing species (SS vs Skin, gray vs green, animal vs vegetable) but of one flesh. Aside from the whole incarnation topic, which I'd love to get into here but won't and hope we can do it later, the "one flesh" and "assimilation of opposites" leans me toward the theory the other pods are duplicates of our beloved four. Backups originally, by now very different in goals and temperament, probably. Just a feeling I've had for some time; I'm nonspoiled. Anyway, the chance to see Jason Behr do another turn as replications of himself (Captain Kirk, where are you when we need you?) is an opportunity I doubt the creators would pass up. And watching it is something nobody in my family would pass up, either.

Yes. Nasedo brought it up again -- intensifying a pattern that seemed to start already in season 1: frequent references to teeth and biting. For example, Liz's concern if the cafe is short-handed during the orthodontists' convention: "those tooth people are just going to invade" (approx. quote). Michael: "This plan bites...," etc. In MTTM, didn't the entrance to the carnival hall of mirrors (or something in that scene) look like a open mouth with big teeth?

ROSWELL…PLANTS WITH AN ATTITUDE: THE CHARACTERS LOOK GOOD (AND ARE PROBABLY TASTY, TOO!)

Welcome to

AW, SHUCKS!
The Roswell Natural History Wing Ongoing Exhibit on Agriculture...Alien Style. Got Corn?

NEMO, thanks again for pointing out and researching the DeKalb reference. It gave me the link I needed to 'implicate' Monsanto (see LizMyth#15 thread). Chemical factory = ? fertilizer. This is too good to be true.

The 535 refers to a hybrid seed stock, specifically MAIZE. What is so amazing about this is that Barbara McClintock received a Nobel Prize, after years of ridicule by the scientific community, for her work with maize, and the genetics of TRANSPOSONS or INSERTION SEQUENCES also termed
JUMPIN GENES http://www.cas.muohio.edu/~wilsonkg/gene2000/lect22centrald/MobilE.htm

Jumping Genes http://biocrs.biomed.brown.edu/Books/Essays/JumpingGenes.html http://hermes.mbl.edu/women_of_science/mcclintock.html

Another point. In recent episodes we have noted (at least I have), the specific use of the word RACE. Max and CW (perhaps others, I can’t recall) put particular emphasis on the word. Maize hybrids are categorized by many of their breeding characteristics.

‘Royal’ and ‘heirloom’ are gardening terms (original breeds or stock? Anyone have a better descriptor?).

MAIZE RACE
A race of maize is "a group of related individuals with enough characteristics in common to permit their recognition as a group" (Anderson and Cutler, 1942, Ann Mo Bot Gard 29:69-89). Goodman and Brown (1988) These ‘RACES’ are named after Native American cultures.

DESCRIPTORS FOR MAIZE http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/desc.pl?89001
> ITEM #19 PRIMARY RACE > http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/html/desclist.pl?89

MAIZE PAGE http://www.ag.iastate.edu/departments/agronomy/genes.html
http://www.ag.iastate.edu/departments/agronomy/general.html

Interesting appearing site about “ARTIFICIAL ORGANISMS and MAIZE, ie creation myths of the Hopi and Mayans . The first maize was found in New Mexico. http://www.greenpeace.org/~geneng/reports/gmo/gmo017.htm

Note that GERMPLASM repositories, research, etc applies not only to corn, but to all crops, microbes, animals, etc. throughout the world.

The following are links on an earlier page of this thread and on the first S&S thread, and a new one. Please revisit the earlier post (interesting screencaps).

USDA, ARS National Germplasm Repository
13601 Old Cutler Road Miami, Florida 33158

NATIONAL GENETICS RESOURCES PROGRAM http://www.ars-grin.gov/

USDA NATIONAL ANIMAL GERMPLASM PROGRAM “preserving animal breeds for the future” http://www.ars-grin.gov/nag/

http://www.public.iastate.edu/~usda-gem/

Glance at these links at your leisure (genotype and phenotype query and, , I kid you not, “Mutants of Maize” pictures): http://www.agron.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/sybgw_mdb/mdb3/GeneProduct/query http://www.agron.missouri.edu/cgi-bin/sybgw_mdb/mdb3/Phenotype/query http://www.agron.missouri.edu/Coop/images/MOM.html

Did the military find the seedpods and exploit the biotechnology post WW2? Did they find the original alien pod and manufacture the copies? Were the glowing beings (if we believe the story) 'guardians' or 'gardeners' of a SPECIAL harvest begun ages ago? Are they PRESERVERS of the germplasm? We could go on and on here...all questions all the time...but I have to go

Stay tuned for the 'diamond collection' of screencaps and the fence motif (?double helix reference)

Rosta~~~~~ ~~~~~

Thank you for an amazing post and summary. And thank you for your efforts to draw others into the discussion. I am deeply appreciative. I agree with you, I have been so impressed by recent posts by VALENTIFAN (welcome again!!!), TEPP, ELLIOT, BLUECORNMOON, MELODIOUS! and others, and you posted some of the salient excerpts from some of these posts from other threads.

Most of all, thank you for reposting JENLEV's amazing post on time travel and the hero's journey and other aspects of mythology.

I really have not been feeling well over the last 2 days and have gotten behind. But I have some more to add about the limbic system/temporal lobes and the soul, and grail mythology (Parceval rather than Arthur, although the latter is also important, and it takes me a while to write these). And other goodies.

Has anyone read 'The 8' by Katherine Neville.

Back soon

Rosta

And Nemo, on the boxed lunch quotes, from Monsters: quote:
(MARIA is working in the Crashdown alone. It's very busy. MAX walks in.)
MOTHER: (A mother is chasing her son, who is running around, aiming his toy phaser gun at MARIA.) Corey! Corey! Will you stop it with that thing or we're not going to the museum.
COREY: Blast all aliens! (Corey points gun at Max.)
MARIA: (to MAX) Liz isn't here, and if she were here, I would kill her.
MAX: I just want to--
MOTHER: Excuse me, but there's nothing really scary in that UFO center, is there? I mean, there's nothing real or anything?
MAX: I've never really been in there, so
MARIA: Of course not, why would you ever think something like that? There's no such thing as aliens, especially anywhere around here.
COREY: That's not what it said on the menu.
MOTHER: Knock it off!
MARIA: Thank you for dining at the Crashdown.

It looked like a variant of the diamond shape, having slightly concave sides. Similar markings were on some of Alex's shirts in season 1. Sometimes one diamond (ITW?), sometimes two pairs.

Nemo: Did you notice that Mack the Knife played in Parker's bar when Hal Carver got the key? I think that there is a teeth reference within the lyrics of the song, but I don't remember if it's the German lyrics or the English lyrics.

I am certain this is a reference to the 3 Penny Opera (or) Die Drei Grosschen Oper by Brecht. The play was highly political and symbolic. I can't find my notes on it. Reggie? Can you help at all?

"Oh, the shark, babe, has such teeth, dear,
And he shows them pearly white,
Just a jackknife has old MacHeath, dear,
And he keeps it out of sight."

There's more about scarlet billows when the shark bites but how MacHeath is so deft there's hardly a trace of red...

WO! Nemo, I totally forgot about the orthodontists! And Rosta (thanks for the nice welcome again!!) --you're onto something with the corn. My God. Is this Roswell or "Day of the Triffids?" I'm delightfully creeped out now and looking forward to more of this very interesting development.

Qfanny--hi from a former Nebraskan. Went to high school and college in Omaha. My husband is from Fairbury (or as he now likes to call it, Fehrbehry) I've been away from there now for 25 years, but there's still no place like it. Just much warmer places.

"Children of the Cornhuskers??"

--from Liz

I appreciate hearing of this connection -- song references mostly elude me unless someone points them out.

ValentiFan, thanks for explaining further while I was writing this. About shark's teeth -- haven't there been a lot of those on school lockers lately? Starting with Tess's locker? Or does it go farther back than that?

Rosta asked me to post here also, which I have now finally done. Meanwhile, she posted an extensive reply there. http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/002034-5.html

This show about aliens has often played with symbols having wings:
The present, winged-corncob symbol.
The winged-8 symbol of the 8th Air Force (earlier on this thread).
The Union Pacific symbol http://www.uprr.com
(in Valenti's office in ITW, cf. Atherton's basement calendar)

~Nena~

One such idea ties in with the list of winged motifs you just gave--Rosta has mentioned this in connection with the Holy Grail story template (Michael was the angel who accompanied the pregnant Mary Magdalene on her flight to southern Europe after the crucifixion). I've also seen it mentioned on the Michael thread. When hubby and I were watching "Destiny" in September and getting the full sense of Michael's status as warrior and second in command, husband said, "Of course, he's Michael the Archangel!" Incarnate as a scruffy kid with a REALLY bad 'do this season and probably madder than hell about it. Rosta saw the MM story as a pattern for Liz's situation. I'm intrigued by the whole concept of essences incarnate in physical form. So were Max's people, obviously.

Your list of wings brought it to mind.

As a native of Kansas and Nebraska, I remember seeing the DeKalb insignia everywhere. Who'da thunk it would turn up again in this context!

This show about aliens has often played with symbols having wings:
The present, winged-corncob symbol.
The winged-8 symbol of the 8th Air Force (earlier on this thread).
The Union Pacific symbol http://www.uprr.com
(in Valenti's office in ITW, cf. Atherton's basement calendar)

It makes me happy to see old and new posters here. Welcome.

STARBOX, I hope you will post on this board as well…and often. I read with GREAT pleasure your Lilith post, which I just ate up, and some of your other posts before that. I was hoping you would find your way here (and, I hope, will re-post here for longer term reference).

I totally agree with the analogy (how wonderful that your book had the associated symbol!) I'm sure this is the intended meaning of the symbol in Roswell, as I am sure Tess is, as I refer to her, 'an ancient soul', and perhaps the only real/ original 'alien' in Roswell (ie, not hybrid) or at least among very few. BTW- I believe there is intent to suggest, for the purposes of STORYTELLING, that the creation myths and/or mythological characters, gods, goddesses, etc may have alien origins).

Indeed, the stream or flow of the ancient world, old/new testament, grail, Eastern, Native American and Americas personages, imagery, iconography and archetypes have provided a framework for Roswell. One can find a counterpart for Tess from the beginning of civilization and time (ie, chaos).

The picture of the winged-Tess certainly supports the analogy with the Sumarian origin winged-Lilitih Do you think perhaps the Lilith, the Great Mother of the agricultural tribes, was unfairly demonized
for her 'liberated' ideas (ie, female opportunity) because of the historical shift to a patriarchal religious context.

I believe you mentioned that Lilith was the Sumerian goddess of creation. She also may have an Etruscan counterpart. I know you mentioned Ishtar. Indian (Kali) and Minoan myths also are worth examining. Certtainly Morgana. Any Egyptologist out there?

In the ancient world, religion was mainly female dominated (or shared) reflecting the primacy of, and association with,
FERTILITY: agriculture and the creation cycle (also see egg, snakes, caduceus)

In the Grail cycles, the questors, when successful, restore the land, prosperity, and fertility (symbolized by the Fisher King, wounded-king'). Arthur, Lancelot, and others failed, in part, because they were seduced or tricked into the 'wrong-relationships' with love and evil, and the king/kingdom fell into ruin.

This may be analogous to the 'revision' of Mary Magdalen into a prostitute, stripping her of her status as the favorite and beloved of Jesus, as described in some apochryphal and esoteric texts, and the origin of the madonna-whore dichotomy.

I tend to resist dichotimizing (it makes analysis 2-dimensional and excludeds the rich range of variability inbetween) so I don't see Tess as all evil.

STARBOX wrote: Here is the evil Tess with bat/gargolyle wings. Three different shots/camera angles - so I believe it is intentional.

I agree. I love the last picture BTW. An example of the excellent set design work in Roswell. I have a recollection that someone mentioned seeing a lily (Lilith, yoni-symbol). If you (and anyone else) are reading this, can you recall the episode/screencap. There are many yoni-symbols, most notably a Native American 'corn' clan symbol in a picture above Liz's desk (I think it is visible in SH) and the fleur-de-lis (Michael has a shirt covered with these; also symbol of the Merovingian dynasty whose self declared kings fancied themselves descendants of the holy bloodline). Speaking of ancients and female/creation myths and figures, it's a stretch, but perhaps the Sheila of SH's name is a reference for Sheila-Na-Gig representations?

STARBOX, others, in addition to the obligatory Jung and Campbell, I find these sources helpful AND entertaining. Please post your favorites:

THE WOMANS'S ENCYCLOPEDIA of MYTHS & SECRETS ***addictive, fun
(Barbara G. Walker)

THE GRAIL LEGEND ***excellent!!!
(Emma Jung, Marie-Louise von Franz

SPEECH OF THE GRAIL ***entertaining, highly readable Parceval/Grail
(Linda Sussman)

AMOR & PSYCHE Erich Neumann (and other Neumann books)

I'll add a reference for Native American mythology but I don't have the author handy (I read it in Barnes&Nobel because it's too expensive).

For the daring: always fun, entertaining, the stuff behind modern storytelling, but ranging from fascinating history to the LOL fantastical- be warned!)

BLOODLINE OF THE HOLY GRAIL***I love this one; great fun (also has a beautiful trade color book companion) Has EVERYTHING
&
GENESIS OF THE GRAIL KINGS (covers ancient history before the above book, and old testament) (both by L. Gardner)
(interesting Lilith section)

HOLY BLOOD/HOLY GRAIL Baigent, et al started it all

Since others have posted good references, it might benefit old and new posters if someone (hinthint) can be persuaded to add a book and links (ie, Mything Links) page to their website. I'm still trying to design a site, but it will be a while.

Again, **StarBox** mythologist, dreamer, ValentiFan, mythologists and others, please stop by often. There is a lot to post about and I don't have the time. Perhaps a list. To start (there are so many places to start) perhaps someone can post on the rich mythology/alchemy associated with

COPPER (Churchlady- voice: mmm..could it be..Venus!)
and
KALI (KALI-MA) and, similar to Lilith,

My ufology is limited to X-Files related stuff so I wish someone could summarize the Roswell story (and the Phoenix lights) and find a link or two.


Rosta~~~~~ ~~~~~

PS- I haven't forgotten the )( type symbols I just did not have time to find my previous posts about it that are not on this thread.

VENUS, COPPER, ALCHEMY, V, etc: http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/41a/41a7.html

Vicous Critter

Vicous Critter
Do you mean this one:
This will sound very un-intellectual or spiritual, but I always thought the last 2 symbols of the top left string were "WB"

You asked about references - I find this one to be well worth investing in:

The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols - Jean Chevalier and Alain Gheerbrant

I actually work at a Barnes and Noble and do quite a bit of research while at work :-) - nothing like a Caramel macchiato and a stack of mythology books. I have not found any that are as well-researched and inclusive as the Penguin book - my only complaint is that it does not have enough visual representations of the symbols.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I'm sorry if this has been pondered before (this thread is *amazing* btw, I almost feel like my IQ kicks up a couple notches every time I wander in here )...I apologize for any repetitiveness or accidental plagerism.

This has been posted earlier on this thread and I know y'all are very familiar with it, but the "4 Pod" alien symbol:

Have any of y'all ever thought it looks rather frighteningly similar to this symbol?
The "Hakenkreuz" was the Pagan Germanic symbol of the God of Thunder known as Donnor or Thor. More popularly known as the "swastika".

Or this symbol?
The "Sonnenrad" or Sunwheel swastika was the old Norse representation of the sun. This symbol was adopted by the 5th SS Panzer Division "Wiking". Kind of looks like the symbol on the alien beeper, doesn't it? Minus the fifth pie slice.

I obtained the Nazi symbols and information from this website, "Pagan Runes Used by Nazi Germany"
http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/8514/runes.html

Examining some of the other alien symbols posted on this thread frequently, some of them are rather similar to other Germanic (Nazi) Pagan symbols from that website.

I realize that most of these (Germanic) Pagan symbols didn't always have such a negative connotation. The swastika itself was actually adopted as a Christian symbol before the Nazis took hold of it (and still is a Christian symbol, however, rarely seen as such). The Nazis have forever tainted these symbols unfortunately.

I've also always been disturbed of the timeline the podsters seemingly arrived on Earth. 1947 - just after the end of WWII and defeat of the Axis Powers (the Podian Royals were presumedly also JUST defeated on Twilo). The Podians and Skins (possibly including other alien factions) also seem to be embroiled in this "conflict" or "war" (as Courtney says in "Harvest"). Symbolism here?

I've also had issues with the Momogram itself. "Mom" this very aryan, blonde female figure bathed in white, 'pure' light.

What does this mean if it were at all true? Could King Max, 2nd in Command Michael, Princess Isabel and Young Bride Tess all have been part of some genocide against the Skins or other alien races/factions? Which is why Courtney seemed to deem Max's rule as *disastrous*; because he was a heartless tyrant?

This is rather a lame comparison, but Max's haircut always reminded me of one of the Caesars, except the coiffe from Sof47...

Sieg heil...??

...It gives me a bit of an Adolf Hitler vibe (although Max's hair is longer I believe and this was also a style reminiscent of military men 1940s, most of the men had the same/similar style in the ep).

Am I crazy for thinking this?

Melodious

Four Pod symbol & Max pic are from Crashdown / the Nazi Symbols are from the above mentioned website, no plagerism is intended

Than you for your post, your research and the pictures. Very interesting and you bring up a sensitive topic that arises whenever the word 'swastika' is used.

As far as Roswell, I don't get the same vibes that you do. However, given the timeline as you pointed out, I think the subtext of Nazi medical experimentation (scientists smuggled into the US and elsewhere post WW, and creating hybrids, ie,creating 'perfect' and/or powerful beings, etc) may certainly be part of the subtext. I certainly believe that themes in Roswell will include: racial tolerance, defining what is alien or 'others' (ie, 'those people'), origins, and 'can't we all just get along'.

Along the way I am sure we will learn some unpleasant truths (on all sides) about war, survival, fear of the unknown, use/abuse and responsibilities of great and GREAT power, and other themes encountered in scifi.

The swastika (from the root of an ancient Asian Indian word), is a very sacred symbol which has appeared since ancient stone carving appeared. It is found in nearly all world cultures: Greek, Roman, Vikings, Mayans, Aztecs, Christians (ie, indeed one of the earliest Christian symbols, and appeared in catacombs), and have been found on ancient synagogues. It is a sacred sign to Hindus, Buddhists, and many Native American Cultures.

A brief look at some important Native American symbols
http://www.collectorsguide.com/fa/fa040.shtml

The NAVAJO Whirling Logs Narrative from the Nightways Chant
http://www.canyonart.com/sandrugs.htm
Take a look at the first and second sand paintings on this page.

In Native American culture, the swastika commemorates the 4 directions travelled by the first people from the 4 corners. It was/is a symbol of luck in Asia. It retains its ancient symbolism in many cultures, appearing on textiles, basket weaving designs, ceramics, etc.

"The swastika symbol represents the path of the migrations of the Hopi clans.

QUOTE FROM WEBSITE: "The center of the cross represents Tuwanasavi or the Center of the Universe which lay in what is now the Hopi country in the southwestern part of the US. Tuwanasavi was not the geographic center of North America, but the magnetic or spiritual center formed by the junction of the North-South and the East-West axws along which the Twins sent their vibratory messages and controlled the rotation of the planet.

But for many who fought the Nazis and/or survived the Holocaust, no historical or cultural origins will erase the visceral feelings and/or connotations the symbol assumed when it was co-opted by the Nazis.

quote:MAXEDO wrote:
Oh, yes, that would be a job for the Maxcedo gang. Will get right on it Agent Rosta. Of course, this is in Maxcedo Time, right?

Uhh..Maxedo... uhh…sorry I disturbed your sleep.

Maxedo time? Well, at minimum, the Aztecs give us until 2012- 14 (barring any stray asteroids and alien invasions before then) before the next cycle of destruction; and at the maximum, I have it on good authority (I got to see the Rose Planetarium in NYC last weekend) that the sun will take a chill pill in a few billion years (but suns are such unreliable creatures). So plan accordingly.

quote:ROSWELL_LUVR15wrote: WOW, How much where do I go to take a Tour what if I wanna add somethin????Great Museum.

Welcome ROSWELL_LUVR15: Thank you very much. I'm happy you find pleasure here. This thread expands on some themes or obervations from the episodes. Sometimes questions are raised on other threads (visit the 'Liz Importance to the Alien Mythology' and the 'Science Fiction of..' threads and find a link to Shapeshifter's MAXEDO website for archives and theories. Read, enjoy, at your leisure: we hope to hang around for a long while. Contribute whatever is of interest to you. We're easy here. Thanks for dropping by.

quote:VICOUS CRITTER wrote: Have you guys noticed the 8 symbol on the map? you can see it at the top and I think you have a pic. of it on Pg2, it's near the top... Do you think that has any meaning?

VICOUS CRITTER Welcome The ‘8’ symbol is a very ubiquious symbol and has many possible meanings. I’m sure it means something in Roswell. There are some speculations on this thread by SF and Nemo. We note it’s appearance in an Army patch as researched by Nemo. And SF did a wonderful photo composite on this thread with the patch and the sand map. Stay tuned and you will find more thoughts here in the future. The 8 can be a symbol, the number 8 (?8 podsters), or represent a group/organization, or part of a code. In Roswell, it could be ancient or more recent in origin. We just have questions and no answers. Thanks for asking and for stopping by.

~~~Rosta~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

From the first Signs and Symbols thread: http://www.symbols.com
VENUS, COPPER, ALCHEMY, V, etc: http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/41a/41a7.html

Valentifan, I've really been enjoying your posts. Rosta has always felt that Michael was special. Rosta, if you still have them, could you please repost all the stuff you wrote about Michael last season. I like the archangel Michael motif, and was wondering how to tie it in with Michael the Navigator. At one level, as a military leader, he would have needed to be a good strategist, hence his facility with maps. On a way off the deep end level, now that I've been sucked in by Holy Blood, Holy Grail (thanks a ton Rosta for that recommendation), after archangel Michael the leaders of the protectors of the bloodline were called Navigators.

Nemo, StarBox, Rosta and Melodious1, did you notice the eagle on the front of the "special" bus in WO. Someone over on the SF of WO thread thought that it looked like the eagle from the military base in the WR. I need to check, but I thought that one had its wings raised up. I thought this one looked a lot like the Nazi eagle without the circle and the swastika on the URL Melodious1 posted. http://www.geocities.com/Vienna/Strasse/8514/runes.html Of course, it's an extremely stylized bird image, and is probably common to many cultures. OT Does anyone know why the Nazi's used a bald eagle or an african fish eagle for their motif? I'm assuming there must be an european eagle with similar coloration. Can anyone help me out?

Rosta, thanks for the post on the swastika. I knew it was really old, but now I have a much clearer understanding of it's background.

Melodious1, I don't actually think the 4square symbol and the swastika are that similar. You're just keying into the + or x sign which is ubiquitous.
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/09/091.html
http://www.symbols.com/encyclopedia/09/0913.html
I find it interesting that the fifth element is associated with +, and that the x can mean "a crossbreed between different species, varieties or races (in botany and biology)."

Another meaning for the + or x sign is harmony, which I've extrapolated out to "balance." This season, they've played up the modified 4 square symbol, which is definitely in balance, and the importance of all 4 podsters working together. But the last two eps, they've played up the triangle (not in balance) with one point at the apex and three points at the base (e.g., the lights on either side of T. Greer's head in Harvest - Nemo pointed this out,. Max's column in front of Isabels in WO). Qfanny had some interesting thoughts on the 4square symbol on page 3 of this thread. Nemo brought up the triangle in relation to Max on page 2.

Great posts everyone. Looking forward to reading more.

SF

Nemo, StarBox, Rosta and Melodious1, did you notice the eagle on the front of the "special" bus in WO. Someone over on the SF of WO thread thought that it looked like the eagle from the military base in the WR. I need to check, but I thought that one had its wings raised up. I thought this one looked a lot like the Nazi eagle without the circle and the swastika on the URL Melodious1 posted.

*********************************************

SF - I am wondering if the bird on the front of the bus was possibly a PHOENIX and not an eagle??? Often it is hard to tell the two images apart at first glance - but something about the bird on the front struck me as being similar to a Phoenix.
Of course - the Phoenix symbolism of rising from the ashes would be a bit blatant - so perhaps it is wishful thinking on my part :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I like that idea. Do you have any links to images of the phoenix. I'm familiar with the legend, but the only images of a phoenix that I can remember seeing were in cartoons. In a sense the phoenix bus has already risen from the ashes of Harvest. Is that what you meant by blatant, or more the fact that the skins will arise again after Tess's fiery blast. We were led to believe that Nikolas is still around...

SF

I hope we'll find out what some of them mean in episode 8, because all of the dupes have tatoos of the 4 square logo and stuff on them and you'd think they'd explain that...but then maybe they won't, they haven't explained anything yet and we're 1/4 of the way through season 2.

I think the 4 square logo looks like 4 little kidney beans/alien embryos in boxes and whoever said that one of the logos looked like it said,"WB" made me it kind of did, who knows if that's intentional or not. I definately think there's more to all the symbols and stuff than we know. I admire the wealth of information that you guys have come up with, and I look forward to finding out "the truth" under it all...

MountainGirl

SF

SF - try this link http://www.inanna.com/yggdrasil/index.html
I am not sure if you have to click on the image of the phoenix from there or if its a direct link.

I KNOW there is a way to tell the eagle and phoenix apart when they are presented symbolically - ROSTA - do you remember/know what it is??????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Till then....just out here meditating on the Roswellian layers....so much more than meets the eye!!

Star_Dust2.....just passing the time till Monday, again!!

The opening credits of Roswell has a newspaper headline that reads:

King Carol II weds Mdme Lupescu

Because they seem to focus on it, I thought I would check it out. The history of this King and Madame (whenever I see the word "Madame" I get suspicious - ) was interesting and possibly was meant to shed some light on King Max's situation. If not, I have learned some interesting history about Romania and perhaps other people will enjoy this addition to the S&SB Museum!

King Carol II
(b.1893 - d. 1953)

"The most disputed among the four Kings of Romania is, without a doubt, King Carol II. Many considered him responsible for the disintegration of Romania at the beginning of WWII. He was the one to be the first dictator in the twentieth century Romania. His private life was scandalous and outraged even the most loyal partisans of the the monarchy.".........

see: http://www.msci.memphis.edu/~marcusa/Mihai/english/carol2en.html

Lupescu, Magda
(b.1896? - d.1977)
Original name Magda Wolff, Romanian adventuress who, as mistress of King Carol II of Romania, exerted a wide-ranging influence on Romanian public affairs furing the 1930s.

see: http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/8/0,5716,50588+1+49397,00.html

Carol II
King of Romania (1930-1940), whose controversial reign ultimately gave rise to a personal, corporatist dictatorship.

see: http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/3/0,5716,20743+1+20426,00.html

A short Chronology covers the 1856 to 1997 period, and reflects the events related to the Romanian monarchy and members of the royal family.

see: http://www.msci.memphis.edu/~marcusa/Mihai/english/cronologieen.html

Rosta:
Uhh..Maxedo... uhh…sorry I disturbed your sleep. Maxedo time? Well, at minimum, the Aztecs give us until 2012- 14 (barring any
stray asteroids and alien invasions before then) before the next cycle of destruction; and at the maximum, I have it on good authority (I got to see the Rose Planetarium in NYC last weekend) that the sun will take a chill pill in a few billion years (but suns are such unreliable creatures). So plan accordingly.
Hey Rosta, this is THE KING MAXCEDO here. A little cheeky talk for an earthling, don't you think? Perhaps I will allow shapeshifter to ransom the posting of the links in exchange for the Arthurian Season 1 theories that the EAs are holding hostage.

Regardless, I hope you all not only noticed the wings on the bus, but that the camera held them in focus for a lo-o-ong time.

I have been trying and trying to figure out WHAT Tess is after - since I firmly believe she is up to no good.

Here is a brief synopsis of what I think is going on (detail is on pg 10 of the Liz mythology thread).

You have THREE factions:
1) "Race #1" - whose king is Max. Max/Isabel/Liz/Michael are definate members of this race.
2) "Race #2" - whose leader is Khivar. I think Tess was part of this race - and that a union between she and Max was suggested to unite the two factions.
3) "REBELS" - This consists of members of BOTH races - they want to overthrow Max AND Khivar and claim the throne for themselves.
This group includes TESS, Harding, Courtney and the "Micheal worshippers".
It may possibly include Nikolas - although I think I lean towards him being a Khivar.
loyalist. They are trying to recruit Michael.

Now here is the Arthur link - I believe that Tess's purpose is to "mate" with Max and therby produce a legitamite heir to the Twilo throne to displace Khivar. (Morgana anyone???) This would explain the "mating" book that Tess has.
It also explains why the "enemy" dont just KILL the royals - and why - since Tess knows where the granolith is - that she doesnt just
betray them right now. The rebels need a royal link in order to take over the throne.
The only way to get that is to either claim a direct heir through Max or to produce an heir through Isabel - and then to kill Max (and any heirs he may have at that time).

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Hey StarBox,

I've been thinking the same thing. If it's true then I think we've gained some information about their former life. Tess and Max's marriage was a political contract. Mommy Dearest refering to her as a "bride" is intentional. A bride refers to a "woman on wedding day and through the honeymoon." For all we know she might have been Max's "bride" for many years (no honeymoon, no consummation), but not his wife or consort. She was the symbol of the alliance between their races, but as in any good royal intrigue, her blood was not going to mingle with the royal blood. My guess is that her race didn't know this at the time of the marriage, and if she does actually love Max, it's a pretty tragic situation. We can also infer that at the time of their deaths there were no progeny. There'd be no reason to go to these lengths if the bloodline still existed on Twilo. And obviously the blood line is VERY important.

Do you think Michael and Isabels dreams were Tess fabrications? And how do you incorporate the constellation into the story? Why has the four pod squaders working together taken precedence over the "awakening." Is it purely that they needed more action this season, or is there another layer to the intrigue?

Very cool StarBox.

SF

P.S. Thanks for the info on the Phoenix shapeshifter. I found a site that says it is sometimes represented by an eagle. http://riceinfo.rice.edu/projects/colleges/willrice/phoenix.html

I agree I want to know what Tess is after! I wouldnt trust her as far as i can throw her! I think she's just messing things up, I admit that she has done good, but shes done more bad. I think that Liz is inolved in the future but nobody's mentioned her because they werent sure if she was the right human. I defintely think that there has to be a story of betrayal or something in the futer, regarding Tess!

Just had another thought on Tess. Since this version of Tess has to play a role in her race's conspiracy, it was necessary for her to be raised by someone who could fill her in on that role (I think we're supposed to accept that pod amnesia is universal, Monday night will tell us for sure). Everything points to Ed Harding.

This could explain why he told the podsters so little about who/what they are. The only time he actively protected them was when there was the threat of death (i.e., a potential loss of the bloodline). Ignoring the Tictac theory, Hank was killed because he pointed a gun at Michael. Thinking of Edsedo as a co-conspirator of Tess's race makes me want to re-think the white room. Knowing Edsedo's powers it seems bogus that he'd risk Max just to kill Pierce. Tess' mind warps were unsuccesful. Max was identifying too much with his human side, and Michael and Isabel were freaked out by them. They needed Max to really face up to his alieness, and to make humans equal to "them" in the "us" vs "them" game. WR and Destiny almost accomplished this, but Liz has been an endless problem. It looks like future Tess solved that with TEOTW. That part of the story will be resurfacing soon.

If Tess is from the skins race, and Ed Harding was a co-conspirator, why did the skins kill him, and why do they dislike her so much? There could always be a double cross in the story, but I'm leaning towards Tess not being a skin. The skins race were focused on the Vollandra project (for now I'm accepting that means Isabel), with some Mikey G. shippers as rebels. They want the bloodline via Kavar and Isabel, but they're willing to take the throne by force. Tess's poeple/race were using "feudal diplomacy."

StarBox, after I post this, I'll need to reread your races.

For now, I have Max and Isabel = royal bloodline, race unknown, currently half human.
Tess = a race that wants the bloodline, but not skins.
Kavar, Nicholas $ co = skins that want the bloodline.
Ed Harding = co-conspirator Tess's race, same race as them???
Michael = ??? Same as M&I. Cement your second in commands loyalty by making him family? Or another political alliance? Cement two allied races more closely?

Interesting stuff.

SF

SF

StarBox, after I post this, I'll need to reread your races.

For now, I have Max and Isabel = royal bloodline, race unknown, currently half human.
Tess = a race that wants the bloodline, but not skins.
Kavar, Nicholas $ co = skins that want the bloodline.
Ed Harding = co-conspirator Tess's race, same race as them???
Michael = ??? Same as M&I. Cement your second in commands loyalty by making him family? Or another political alliance? Cement two allied races more closely?

Interesting stuff.

SF

[/B]

SF - great to read your thoughts!!! I got this ides after bantering around with GraceKel - she was the one who had the idea of a Tess/Michael/Edsedo/Nicolas connection.

I really, really think that the idea of the royal bloodline is going to come out. It explains so much.

As for your races - I pretty much agree - although I dont necessarily think Khivar wants the royal bloodline. He has power right now. It is the rebels that need the bloodline to claim the throne. It could be that Tess is a "royal" in whatever race Khivar is - so that her offspring with Max would have dual legitimacy as a leader.

Here is another way to looks at it:

1) Max supporters - have the royal bloodline - have legitimate claim to the throne.
Includes Max, Isabel, Liz

2) Khivar supporters - have control of Twilo at present. Goal is to KILL the royals after discovering the granolith. A bonus "prize" would be "converting Isabel" thus giving them a partial claim to the royal lineage.
Includes (I think) - the "skins" and maybe (probably?) Nikolas

3) REBELS - include members of both races -
their goal is to overthrow Khivar and Max and to sieze control of the throne. They can only do this WITH a legitamite heir to the throne to "lead" them - rally the troops - draw support - etc.
Goal - infiltrate the pod squad and produce a
royal heir. HOPEFULLY through Max - since his son is going to have the most claim to the throne and be the most successful at "uniting" both races. They also want to "recruit" Michael as their leader as the "Kings" trusted "second in command" would also give them legitimacy (think the movie Gladiator where Maximus had as much power in terms of popular opinion as the Ceaser).
Their bonus is that a Micheal/Isabel union would also give them a legitamite heir.
BUT - even given an Isabel birthed heir - without Max dead - there would always be the risk that he or his son could come and reclaim the throne.

As long as there is hope for an heir - the royals are relatively "safe".
This could be part of the reason that EOTW was a critical episode.

I do thing Edsedo was a rebel - as were Courtney and Tess. I would guess that CW was Khivar supporter. I also do think that the Michael/Isabel visions were the result of mind manipulation (notice how they were given a CHILD in the visions - these and the Tess-book were what gave them the "mandate" to mate and PRODUCE OFFSPRING).

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

My apologies up front for this horribly long post.

StarBox wrote
quote:I really, really think that the idea of the royal bloodline is going to come out. It explains so much.

I agree that it explains a lot, but I'm currently lacking faith in the writers.

StarBox wrote
quote: As for your races - I pretty much agree - although I don't necessarily think Khivar wants the royal bloodline. He has power right now. It is the rebels that need the bloodline to claim the throne. It could be that Tess is a "royal" in whatever race Khivar is - so that her offspring with Max would have dual legitimacy as a leader.

I have this feeling that there's more to the royal bloodline than just public opinion, and it's ability to rally forces around it. That's why I think Khivar must want the bloodline too. I interpreted that the throne had been tarnished by Khivar because he was not of the royal bloodline. Dynasty's rise and fall all the time. Since Khivar is the one in power, he had to have enough power to get there, he should theoretically have enough power to remain there. Technically he's already started a new dynasty by killing Max and Isabel, BUT THEY WERE SO IMPORTANT that they were brought back. By whom? And why?

Qfanny on the SF of Harvest thread summarized this idea
quote: I have asked the question about why clone these four here and other threads. There are certainly reasons under a political context to question the motivation for the cloning. Regardless of whether the skins are truthful or not, if the leadership of our proto-podsters caused warring factions, then one wonders why the Twilonese would go to any great extent to recreate them. Nations rise and fall on Twilo just as they do on Earth. New leaders replace the old. So when cloning these four, I believe that the reasons go much further than politics.

What we do know from Nikolaus is that the podsters have a "legendary aura" on Twilo. I think that this line could imply that the Twilonese have a Christ-like view of the podsters. That they are saviors of their world. If we compare that scenerio to our own religions, you can find many examples of the central deity being recreated, reborn, or refashion to save the world.

This returns me back to the question why these four? And why must they work together? Is there some sort of metaphysical connection between them? The fact that they are Royal seems important, but I do not think it carries them up to the status of "Legendary". I think the decision to clone them was based Twilo's mythology that have undertones of religious significance than political ones. My assumption here is also supported in Mommogram's message, "Our enemies have come to the Earth. You will know them only by the evil within. Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my arms. I live for that moment. Help us. I love you."

As discussed on pages prior, the evil within implies evil intent rather than by physical traits. Combat could be refering to killing evil, like St. George killed the dragon, the serpant-symbol for Satan. Only after all the evil is extinguished, can the podster truly free the home world.

{From a later post by Qfanny on the same thread}
The Greeks and Hellenstic societies mandated that the political leaders were considered Gods or deities. In fact, in its only in our more modern history, that the "seperation of Church and state" was established as a theme for governments.

The Natural Order: (I don't think that's the real name) The feudal system had a class ranking, were the belief was the serf was subject to the lord, the lord was subject to the prince, the prince subject to the king, but the king was subject to God alone. Also, the King was also believed to be hand-picked by God.

If you look at human history, one of the best ways to systematically promulgate a belief system is to use the existing power structure. Think of state religions where non-conformists were searched out and persecuted (e.g., spanish inquisition). As Qfanny has already mentioned, the "seperation of Church and state" is a modern concept. Up to now, all the information we have about Twilo's government structure seems anachronisitic. We have a people that are capable of inter-galactic travel that appears to be ruled by a feudal monarchy. I need to look at Reggie's politics thread, but I'd guess that this has been looked at in depth.

So here's where I'm going with all this waffling. The messianic overtones to Max's character and the royal bloodline are all tied together. The bloodline is necessary to the throne. There is more to this than just the end of a flesh and blood dynasty. Something epic, something mythic, something that includes the fifth element…

StarBox wrote (first and second post) quote:
1) "Race #1" - whose king is Max. Max/Isabel/Liz/Michael are definate members of this race.

1) Max supporters - have the royal bloodline - have legitimate claim to the throne. Includes Max, Isabel, Liz
I agree that Max and Isabel are givens unless the Mommagram turns out to be bogus. I'm in the changed Liz camp. I still think she was 100% human before the healing/reversal, but I do think she'll end up being the fifth element. IMHO, she's the wild card that no-one predicted/expected.

StarBox wrote (first post) quote:
2) "Race #2" - whose leader is Khivar. I think Tess was part of this race - and that a union between she and Max was suggested to unite the two factions.

If Tess is a skin, she is not part of the skin faction involved in the Vollandra project.

StarBox wrote (second post) quote:
Khivar supporters - have control of Twilo at present. Goal is to KILL the royals after discovering the granolith. A bonus "prize" would be "converting Isabel" thus giving them a partial claim to the royal lineage. Includes (I think) - the "skins" and maybe (probably?) Nikolas.

I agree, but I'd flip the emphasis. The granolith is the "bonus prize," but Isabel is who they were really after. They NEED history to repeat itself. After all, it was called the Vollandra project. (Why? IMHO something to do with the power structure, either political or metaphysical. If it's the latter it has something to do with the "Balance/Flow." Tess accidentally tapped fully into the Balance's energy when she mind warped the fire wall. If it's the former, it's for the bloodline. It could be for both reasons.) Why are you unsure of Nikolas's affiliations?

StarBox wrote (first post) quote:
3) "REBELS" - This consists of members of BOTH races - they want to overthrow Max AND Khivar and claim the throne for themselves. This group includes TESS, Harding, Courtney and the "Micheal worshippers". It may possibly include Nikolas - although I think I lean towards him being a Khivar. loyalist. They are trying to recruit Michael.

I like this one. As a faction, Tess and Harding are definitely together. If Courtney and the "Michael worshippers" are part of the same conspiracy, Tess doesn't know about Courtney, unless her hostility is just a cover up. For the Tess-Harding bloodline conspiracy to work, they're going to need co-operation from either Isabel or Michael, i.e., one of the parents of the future heir that they plan to manipulate.

StarBox wrote (second post) quote:3) REBELS - include members of both races - their goal is to overthrow Khivar and Max and to sieze control of the throne. They can only do this WITH a legitamite heir to the throne to
"lead" them - rally the troops - draw support - etc. Goal - infiltrate the pod squad and produce a royal heir. HOPEFULLY through Max - since his son is going to have the most claim to the throne and be the most successful at "uniting" both races. They also want to "recruit" Michael as their leader as the "Kings" trusted "second in command" would also give them legitimacy (think the movie Gladiator where Maximus had as much power in terms of popular opinion as the Ceaser). Their bonus is that a Micheal/Isabel union would also give them a legitamite heir. BUT - even given an Isabel birthed heir - without Max dead - there would always be the risk that he or his son could come and reclaim the throne.

I think you've just stated the Tess-Harding bloodline conspiracy. It looks like Michael is the only "free agent" in the pod-squaders. Whoever has him at their side wins. He also made me think of Galdiator.

quote:
As long as there is hope for an heir - the royals are relatively "safe". This could be part of the reason that EOTW was a critical episode. I do thing Edsedo was a rebel - as were Courtney and Tess. I would guess that CW was Khivar supporter. I also do think that the Michael/Isabel visions were the result of mind manipulation (notice how they were given a CHILD in the visions - these and the Tess-book were what gave them the "mandate" to mate and PRODUCE OFFSPRING).

This all sounds good to me. Now how do we tie in the fact that all four of them have to work together to defeat the EA from the Mommagram? Are the bloodline idea and the fabulous four idea in conflict with each other?

This has been fun. Any more ideas?

SF

I agree with the sentiment that if heirs are important, then all the podsters need to be of the same race. Bloodlines do seem to be terrible important. I feel that Tess is of a different race than the podsters. This doesn't dimish her importance, but rather explains it. If Tess and Max's marriage was the result of a political contract, particularly between two races, then any offspring of theirs would rightfully inherit whatever legacies each race had to offer. Thus uniting two kingdoms.

I agree with Starbox's assessment of the REBELS being from both sides. There are certainly going to be factions that support and dishonor this "peace treaty." Interesting to note, those from Max's race, that support Destiny, may actually be against the "contract" but for Michael/Isabel to produce offspring. If Michael and Isabel did produce a child, that child would be 100% their race. (Not including the human dna business.)

The fact that they are part human tends to devalue the allainces created in Destiny. If heirs are necessary, then these heirs will also have a human status. We know that the environment on Twilo differs from the environment on Earth. The Skins had to take on husks to protect their bodies. I don't think it would be possible for the podsters to return to Twilo and survive it unless they also modified their bodies. Human DNA allowed them to survive on Earth without the aid of husks. For some reason, I believe that their human status will impede their return, if one is ever made. They will have to be sure than can survive the different climate.

As far as the granolith, I think the SKINS care more about finding it than the podsters. Whitaker's journal states that they (skins) were given a one-way ticket to Earth to find the Royal Four. The only way they can return home is through the granolith, which the Royal Four have. So they have to keep looking for the Royal Four to find the granolith.

I highly recommend reading the journal, it is at www.silverhandprint.com , click on the first symbol to get started.

A couple of quick responses-

I am only unsure about Nikolas because he seems to be a little resentful of Khivar and the CW/Tess/Nicolas connection is something I can not work out in my mind yet.
I think that CW and TESS were working together in SUPRISE (possibly even with Courtney). The Tess/CW connection is very suspicious to me.
Also - in Harvest - Tess and Nicolas seemed to have a relationship of some sort - although I am leaning heavily to them being the same race and Tess being a rebel - perhaps unbeknownst to Nikolas.

As for the four of them needing to work together - I am out on a huge limb here - but I am going to say that I dont think TESS is a podster. I think "she" was in the leaking pod that we were shown in So47. The Tess we know and *love* is a rebel imposter infiltrating the royals.
I think that the fact that when Max was mind-raped he saw MICHAEL, ISABEL, LIZ and the FOUR SQUARE SYMBOL (with NO Tess) is significant. I think they are the four square. Their union created the BALANCE that is the "fifth element".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Tess is being refered to as the "young bride"to Max. This makes me think that Tess was giving to Max unwillingly. There seems to be an age difference implied here that doesn't mean anything here on earth because everyone seems to be around the same age of seventeen. Wonder how old Max was when he was the king on his planet,and how young was Tess? If this is true that Tess was given to him for an arranged marriage to form a peaceful alliance for both races than Tess is telling some lies.

I remember watching an episode when Tess was trying to convince Max that it was their destiny to be together, and she said something to the effect that she remembers the times that they were together and if he could just learn to tap into his memories that he would remember how much he loved her.This memory retrival was something that Nasedo had taught her to do.

Well Max would have never loved her if the marriage was arranged, and if there was such a big age gap between them on their planet. Maybe that is why she is so desparate to have him except her , so the arrangement will help her race be succesful in whatever plan the have.

Just a thought a little of the subject of the thread. thanks guys

BTW, Rosta, when you check in here: I found a great book when I was re-classifying the 800's in the college prep library where I am the sole Librarian. It's: Mythology in the Modern Novel by John J. White. It has lots on Jungian Archetypes in literature. I will try to quote some stuff here as I read. He uses the word "theory" to describe an interpretation of a literary work as a parallel of an established myth.

wow! you folks are onto some very interesting ideas! shapeshifter, can you post the 'isbn' number for the book you mentioned?

from what's being discussed, it seems that the nature of the alien biology may be what reinforces the importance of a ruler above anything else?

the 'once and future king' references are fascinating; i can only hope that the roswell plotline develops a happier ending!i've been away for ten days so i've got to go mull over what's been posted here since i've been gone.

jenlev

Hi Qfanny,

You've articulated my biggest problem with the Roswell canon. Unfortunately for me the word hybrid comes with a huge amount of intrinsic information, most of which has never been addressed, nor probably ever will be addressed. Generally speaking as soon as you have a healthy, viable (able to reproduce) hybrid, you have a new species. The whole bloodline argument falls flat on its face at that point, unless TPTB don't care about what species they end up with, just as long as certain specific traits (powers?) show up in the new species. But why would the new species feel any need to do their originator species bidding?

I've come to the conclusion that all the "races" of Twilo are excellent hybridizers (just like corn). Any "race" can pretty much hybridize with any other "race." It just so happens that Humans are one of their ancient "races," and all of Twilo's "races" can hybridize just fine with them too. That gets rid of all the problems of dilutions or creating something totally new. Roswell is all about happy hybridizers. As to the home planet being inhospitable to the human hybrids, I wouldn't worry too much about it. It'll probably be addressed in the final episode of the series, and at that point most of us wont be that worried about the logic of the solution they provide for us.

SF

P.S. I wait with bated breathe to find out what the writers mean by the word "race." CW's diary just muddies the water.

SF - this is not a deep thought but just wanted to say I about choked on my coffee when I read this quote from you. ROFL!!!!
Where do I order my bumber sticker with this "slogan" on it!!!
Tooooooooooooooo Funny!

**StarBox**
mytholigist, dreamer

shapeshifter: thanks for the isbn number on that book!

sf: regarding the hybrid issue...sorry if i'm repeating what someone else has already posted, i've been out of town so i'm still trying to catch up.....anyway, perhaps the two different races on the alien home planet live in different within different environmental areas?

that might explain why the skins need the husks to survive ant nasedo didn't? similar to how humans cannot yet survive underwater without scuba gear etc., and fish cannot live on dry land?

i'm thinking about examples in mythogy of hybrid races that developed out of species that require different enviornments to survive? for example fairies that cannot touch iron, humans who can...and hybrids who have a bit of both worlds in them?

either way, i still think that all the aliens are unsure of the parameters of the podsters... and this suggests that they might not be so used to creating hybrids after all? i'm just pondering as i'm not sure about this.

even if the war on the home planet is a 'civil war' the participants might not have originated on that planet? and one or more of the races might be invested in trying to perfect a new biological weapon and might view the podsters as such?

also the concept of civil rights might not exist on that planet? therefore the aliens might have an attitude similar to the way the greek gods are portrayed as far as the tendancy to breed with other races is concerned?

jenlev

Because of your posts, I am rereading Nemo's post on DeKalb. I see those signs everywhere I go (you know all too well). I bet you're right. Hmm, maybe someone should write a quick satarical essay comparing the how the Royal Four can bring life back to the sowing fields. Or maybe that is exactly what needs to happen?

I can just see the pitchman now, trying to pitch human DNA as the genetic solution to all the Twilonese's problems.

Good grief, I think a chill just ran down my spine.

I reeeeeeally enjoyed "Meet the Dupes." Lot of food for thought there. Maybe by the weekend my head will stop swirling and I can think of something to say that hasn't already been said.

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone.

great thread!

m-14

I miss talking to you all. This has taken some time because my computer keyboard is broken. I had to dash most of this at work. I have to get a keyboard over Thanksgiving. There are a lot of PHENOMENAL posts and ideas (SF, STARBOX, QFANNY; thanks SHAPESHIFTER, GRACEKEL others i don't mean to leave out) and other folks I want to respond to above. Welcome new visitors. Do come back often. PIEFACE I was thinking about sending out a search party! Welcome back PIE and JENLEV.

Some thoughts, no theories. I'm not really buying anything said by the DUPES and Skins. Memories are untrustworthy and mindgames are rampant. But some may believe what they are saying. But events, time and people are crossed.

If this season storyline is to be believed (ie, Max is not delusional) , then there seems to be another , hidden, 'higher' power at work behind this 'hybridization project' (and I use the word 'higher' only to suggest that this force- human and/or alien- has a greater overview or level of control or omniscience).

The 5 families (and probably more) may ALL be Earth families. They have somehow 'inherited' a collective (and selective) consciousness of lives and events of long, long ago, in another part of the galaxy and/or on earth. Memories of lives and of events that happened so long ago the beings, civilizations, and places have long returned to the dust of the universe , for instance, from a place from which we are now receiving the light of a catastrophic event that ended life on one or more planets.

Did they get the memories, or the collective memory, second hand? By what ever process they may have been created, if indeed they were, did they come by the memories second hand? We the memories programmed? Was the mommogram part of this plan?

Perhaps the memories of events and personages are so similar because the podsters were 'fed' some memories, while other memories came with their respective genetic territory (known or unbeknownst to the ?earthly creators). Were the NY Podsters placed in their respective Big Apple environments just as M/I/M were deliberately placed in their respective homes in Roswell?

Were they hybridized using alien genetic material that had found it's way to earth in the distant past or more recently (ie, 1947)? Material that insinuated itself into our ecosystem or food chain? Perhaps in the dust from a supernova or other dust clouds that travel the galaxy and deposit organic matter? PANSPERMIA

Perhaps the glowing beings were 'Harvesters' who had introduced the alien material to this planet millenia ago. What if this alien material was exploited by earthbound agents (circa post World War 2)? Could it be the agency of their creation be that which became the research arm of the Dept of Defense (DARPA)? And were these experiments with 'alien' material for the purpose of 'creating the perfect soldier' ? (Last year, on another message board, there was discussion about the ?DOD/DARPA origins of the faceless 'Rebel' aliens of the XFiles.

Someone else astutely pointed out that Liz's glowing is similar to the glowing beings. Perhaps that is what humans do or is a property of humans when stimulated/altered in a certain way? Perhaps Human evolution resulted directly, incidentally, or tangentially from actions of the Harvesters/Guardians.

"Life will find it's own way" as was said in a movie. The variety of life, as well as some of the leaps/jumps in evolution (ie, theories of human evolution from Neanderthal to Homo Sapiens) may reflect natural evolution as well as nature's own 'hybridization projects' (ie, as a result of 'transposons' or 'jumping genes' or 'alien' viruses' and bacteria).

Recall, the early earth atmosphere was a reducing atmosphere until there was enough plant life to create oxygen atmosphere. Life teemed in the hot, toxic environment, in sulpher springs, etc. In scifi, perhaps as in the Xfiles, anomalous life, isolated colonies, 'god's side projects' , as Mulder termed them, or unique beings evolved. Did Nicholas' people really only come just 50 years ago? Is Nicholas a genuine alien? Is earth teaming with, not only humans and hybrids, but also descendants of aliens, alien descendants who have been hiding in plain sight? Are all of us descendant? (see link below), and, of course, honest-to-gosh gen-u-wine aliens who stopped in? Who is real and who is Memorex?

Other thoughts. I think the Granilith, or the Myth of the Granilith, existed on earth (or those presumed other earths). But it has always been in it's place, existing in many dimensions. Who does (did) it serve?

Perhaps at one or more times it provided a one-way trip for those escaping a dying world(s). And perhaps a 'chosen' few carry in their genes/beings the 'right' makeup to channel the power of the Granilith. In this way, it is like the Grail. There are the guardians and The Grail Knight-Guardian-to-Be. And for those who can master it's power, the question they will have to answer is: who do I serve by using the Granilith? The answer is of universal importance (because one can be destroyed and/or destroy a world(s) ).

I serve myself (I love power)
I serve my people (the heck with others)
Or,
I do SERVICE to all humanities by serving the Grail-o-lith

PANSPERMIA http://www.space.com/searchforlife/aliens_all_001027.html

SOME QUOTES FROM THE ARTICLES: Another group of researchers, reporting in the October 19 issue of Nature, claims to have found and revived bacteria on Earth that were dormant, in the form of spores, hiding in New Mexican salt crystals for 250 million years. Scientists called the implications of this second discovery profound, suggesting that if further study bears out the findings, it could mean bacterial spores are nearly immortal. And if you are immortal, then what are a few billion years of interstellar travel?

"Until recently, panspermia was not even regarded as a scientific hypothesis," says Chandra Wickramasinghe, the concept's leading proponent. "Now that has changed."

It's clear that panspermia, or at least some aspects of the theory, is poised to jump to the forefront of study among scientists who seek to understand where and how life began. While the prevailing theory holds that life arose spontaneously out of a terrestrial, chemical soup, panspermia's defenders argue that such a miracle could happen almost anywhere. This means we could have microbial ancestors, or even more evolved cousins, in unexplored corners of the cosmos.

In the 1970s, Wickramasinghe and Hoyle found what they say are traces of life in the dust around distant stars. The duo then broadened the panspermia theory, arguing that a continual rain of life-altering stuff from space -- including germs that arrive in cycles related to solar activity -- has affected the course of evolution. The seeds, they say, are still coming.

There is some fantastic stuff on sunflowers, food of immortality. I haven't had time, but perhaps someone is investigating this? GREAT mythology.

here is just a brief summary.
http://www.npwrc.usgs.gov/resource/literatr/wildflwr/species/helimaxi.htm http://www.ent.iastate.edu/ipm/hortnews/1996/4-26-1996/sunny.html

oh and did anyone catch what the other tattoos were of? Do you think they might be sumbollic/important? It looked to me like Rath had some kind of bird (eagle? Pheonix?) on his arm. Eva had a sun on her midriff. can anyone see more? I tried to pause the frames but I don't have the technology to really see freeze frames-plus the WB reception is not too clear.

I hope everyone is enjoying family, friends, or personal time, and whatever else you are thankful for, even the job some may have had to go back to today

Welcome [b]TVPOOH
I have explored the Encyclopedia Mythica and like it very much. If you like that you might also like Mything Links www.mythinglinks.com Thank you for the reference, because the name was eluding me.

I think the Lillith-Eve discussion started by STARBOX is very important. Feel free to add/link anything of interest from your reading.

I have only noted a few of the tatoos and they have been discussed on other threads, too. Also there has been discussion of the a

In addition to many other threads of interest, check out, if you haven't already, the 'lizmythology' and 'Scifi of..' threads, and go to the Maxedo site (SHAPESHIFTER, QFANNY) by following the links and find archives and discussions

I will have to go back and take a look at Ava's tatoos. Maybe we will have good screencaps from the hardworking folks who provide them. (BTW- It would be nice if WB provided hi-res stills from each ep, particularly honing in on these details that the creators/art-directors, etc, felt were important enough to present, such as Tess' ring).

We have been shown the eagle and/or Phoenix enough times to assume importance, and many have commented on the symbolism/significance - cross culturally and historically - of both.

NEMO- I was walking off the beaten path along the extreme west side of Manhatten where my storage room is and noted, in the vicinity of the convention center, that tour buses line along 11th avenue. I noted our 'eagle' on the side of a bus and, on the front, EXACTLY! like on the bus in Roswell, was our emblem. Also the same coloring.
Up close (I wish I'd had a camera because I hadn't been successful finding a dupe on the web)in every detail it was the same and appeared to be an eagle. The way things have been going in season 2, if THEY want it to be a phoenix, then there it is. There is a difference, someone asked me above, but I can't find a source. The head and beak are rendered different.

Rath had some kind of bird (eagle? Pheonix?) on his arm. Eva had a sun on her midriff. can anyone see more? I tried to pause the frames but I don't have the technology to really see freeze frames-plus the WB reception is not too clear.

There were several of these buses. The company (can't recall now, ...Tourways, and they do not have a website) is located in LEBANON, PA.

It may only be conincidental and unrelated to anything, which is OK by me- inquiring minds have to know, one goal of this thread- but I had to check out Lebanon. May have no relation whatsoever, but I thought you might find this interesting. Lebanon is the ancient Phoenicia (see SF's excellent posts on previous pages about the symbols and the Phoenician alphabet).

The Phoenicians/Canaanites, known as the people beyond the sea (great navigators, traders, early Semitic peoples, etc) may have been ancestors of the early Greeks (via mythical Arcadia), the peoples of Troy and Carthage, and the Etruscans who claimed descent from the people 'from beyond the sea' (good scifi fodder for sea of space), and possbily further east Asia although ancient historians suggest they fled the fall of Troy. (?ancestors to peoples Corsica, Venice, Sardinia, Sicily, etc)

Oh, yes. And the Merovingian dynasty(founded by Merovee), who claimed themselves priest-king descendants of the messianic bloodline, claimed descent, via Arcadia, from people 'beyond the sea' Sea People
(I have something for you SF, I'll put up later. I'm thrilled you are liking the HB/HG stuff).
Myth has it that perhaps the Phoenicians were the great navigators who sailed as far as Peru (ie, ancestors of Incans, Aztecs)
and were the Atlanteans of mythology.
Some Atlantean ancestry may be a factor in Roswell.

Oh..and the woman in mythology, ELISSA- who founded Carthage (ally to the Etruscans in the war against Rome) was a princess of Tyre, a city-state of Phoenicia = Lebanon. She fled Tyre after her brother had her husband murdered, and founded Carthage (although the land was founded earlier). Elissa was named
DIDO, the Wanderer.

When she staked out her territory in Carthage, a goddess(?) marked a spot with a horse's head to commemorate the event.
(I haven't verified the source yet, but apparently she or someone in her lineage had red hair.

Also, Lebanon was famous for Sunflowers.

More neat 'stuff' later.
http://www.nala.com/lebanon/Histoire.html http://www.opuslibani.org.lb/lebanon/dos007.html

While I'm here, does anyone one else 'see' a face in this image and, if yes, do you think it's who I think it is (has anyone commented on this already)?

~~Rosta~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

P.S. STAR_DUST2, being a holiday week, and in honor of the sweet pies and holiday indulgences, I think it's time for an
'....Oh, My!'

Just off the top of my head---
Valenti = Alien TV
Tess Harding = Trash Design
Max + Tess + Destiny = Ax Missy! End Test
Michael and Maria = I charm a mad alien.
CongressWoman Whitaker = Mrs Whore won't cage a skin.
Deputy Hanson = Handy Setup! No.

I have also seen the Max and Zan are almost an agagram too, that is if you spell Zan as Xan. You almost get Max=Xan(m).

There was also a name anaylsis thread that was fun too, I'll see if I can find it to post.

None of this is logical, but the symbolism seems pretty incrediable.

I can't see it either.

While I'm here, does anyone one else 'see' a face in this image and, if yes, do you think it's who I think it is (has anyone commented on this already)?

Ok, I did see the face in that picture, and I think it does look like Harding. Where is that picture from?

quote: Originally posted by jenlev
from what's being discussed, it seems that the nature of the alien biology may be what reinforces the importance of a ruler above anything else?

That’s definitely the trend I see. There must be something intrinsic to the royal four (or maybe it’s just to the king) that made this whole duplication necessary. I’m talking about the initial duplication, hybridizing humans and aliens. Considering everything we know so far about their alien society, there must have been something very special about these four to make them go to these extreme lengths. It seems to be linked in some way to the operation of the granolith. Why else would they have hidden this very powerful and unique object with the pods in the pod chamber. If the dupes’ pods developed without power from the granolith (which is what I suspect) then the granolith was not hidden away for that purpose (see quote from Rosta below). The only way I can see them being “ordinary” people is if ultimately the story is going to be some big time loop. These four have to get it right, or their civilization ends (Run Lola Run). OR This really is all a game set in motion by some omniscient person to distract and occupy the different factions with the pod squad and their dupes back on earth. I can’t come up with any compelling reason for this last scenario.

quote: Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian italics added by SF
Other thoughts. I think the Granilith, or the Myth of the Granilith, existed on earth (or those presumed other earths). But it has always been in it's place, existing in many dimensions. Who does (did) it serve? Perhaps at one or more times it provided a one-way trip for those escaping a dying world(s). And perhaps a 'chosen' few carry in their genes/beings the 'right' makeup to channel the power of the Granilith. In this way, it is like the Grail. There are the guardians and The Grail Knight-Guardian-to-Be. And for those who can master it's power, the question they will have to answer is: who do I serve by using the Granilith? The answer is of universal importance (because one can be destroyed and/or destroy a world(s) ).
I serve myself (I love power)
I serve my people (the heck with others)
Or,
I do SERVICE to all humanities by serving the Grail-o-lith

I think you’re right on the money with this idea Rosta. It also goes a long way to a possible explanation for making the pod squad hybrids with humans. Because of their human upbringing, they definitely identify with more than one race, and so are more likely to use their power in a universal sense. But will it be universally good, or universally bad? If they’re being manipulated by an all-knowing external force, they might not have as much choice in the matter as we think they have.

quote: Originally posted by jenlev
sf: regarding the hybrid issue... perhaps the two different races on the alien home planet live in different within different environmental areas?
that might explain why the skins need the husks to survive ant nasedo didn't? similar to how humans cannot yet survive underwater without scuba gear etc., and fish cannot live on dry land?
i'm thinking about examples in mythogy of hybrid races that developed out of species that require different enviornments to survive? for example fairies that cannot touch iron, humans who can...and hybrids who have a bit of both worlds in them?

jenlev, I like this approach to hybridization. I tend to get bogged down in what is biologically possible on earth, not what could happen in the Roswell universe. So far we don’t actually know that the different “races” mix, we just know that people from different “races” can form emotional attachments. We also don’t know what the writers are implying by “race.” My flippant comment about happy hybridizers is a way of making me look beyond biology to the story. I do think that the fact that the aliens were able to hybridize with humans does indicate some mutual hereditary material at some point in their past. Panspermia, as Rosta has already mentioned, could solve many storyline problems. If they only needed some commonality to successfully hybridize with humans then they must be able to successfully hybridize with more geographically/astronomically local races where you could theoretically expect a much higher ratio of common heritable material.

quote: Originally posted by jenlev
also the concept of civil rights might not exist on that planet? therefore the aliens might have an attitude similar to the way the greek gods are portrayed as far as the tendancy to breed with other races is concerned?

If there is some external omniscient force then I definitely agree that this is a feasible direction for the story to go into.

quote: Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian
If this season storyline is to be believed (ie, Max is not delusional) , then there seems to be another , hidden, 'higher' power at work behind this 'hybridization project' (and I use the word 'higher' only to suggest that this force- human and/or alien- has a greater overview or level of control or omniscience).

Somebody, somewhere, somewhen has to be keeping track of what’s happening, or maybe that’s just wishful thinking on my part. If the super nova was supposed to coincide with the events of the dupes, then either someone has been orchestrating all these events for a very long time (i.e., immortals?). Or, someone created a fold in space time, allowing the information (photons from the supernova) to reach earth way more rapidly than normal. (I’m basing my length of time for light to reach earth on Palomino’s and bluecommon’s excellent posts from SF of MTD.

I’m still thinking about the five families/planets. I’m waiting for tonight to get some more information.

quote: Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian
Oh, yes. And the Merovingian dynasty(founded by Merovee), who claimed themselves priest-king descendants of the messianic bloodline, claimed descent, via Arcadia, from people 'beyond the sea' Sea People (I have something for you SF, I'll put up later. I'm thrilled you are liking the HB/HG stuff).

Thanks Rosta, I’m looking forward to it. I thought this was interesting. From Holy Blood, Holy Grail, Baigent et al. This is in reference to a stage of Cabilistic initiation known as the Tiferet. “In the Tiferet experience the individual is said to pass beyond the world of form into the formless – or, in contemporary terms, to “transcend his ego.” Symbolically speaking this consists of a kind of sacrificial “death” – the “death” of the ego, of one’s sense of individuality and the isolation such individuality entails – and, of course, a rebirth, or resurrection, into another dimension of all-encompassing unity and harmony….
For Medieval Cabalists the initiation into Tiferet was associated with certain specific symbols. These included a hermit, a majestic king, a child, a sacrificed god. In time other symbols were added as well – a truncated pyramid, for example, a cube and a rose cross. The relation of these symbols to the grail romances is sufficietnly apparent.”

Rosta, I believe you’ve already mentioned this, but here’s a repeat quoted from above with my additions: "These included a hermit (Nasedo), a majestic king (Max/Xan, the original), a child (Michael and Is’s dream child/the pod squad as children), a sacrificed god (Max/Xan, the original/the hybrid/the duplicate???),. In time other symbols were added as well – a truncated pyramid (I know it’s a stetch, but all the triangle imagery), for example, a cube (4 squares??) and a rose cross (the cross that divides the squares??). Is it all spurious, or are they really trying to tie it all together?

quote: Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian
While I'm here, does anyone one else 'see' a face in this image and, if yes, do you think it's who I think it is (has anyone commented on this already)?

Look below, and compare the ear – definitely sticks out, and the shadow around the mouth. I tried to find screencaps that had similar lighting.

shadow around mouth similar, but ear seems way too small and close to the head.

shadow around mouth and ear size match

shadow around mouth similar, ear extends too far down below side-burn, does not appear to stick out enough.

ears to close to the head, but mouth shadow might work

lighting from opposite side, but mouth shadow and ear could match.

ear hidden with this hairstyle, when top of ear visible, I don’t think it sticks out enough.

So who do I think it is? Empirically I’d say the evidence points to Max or Alex, but off the top of my head, it looks like “John Doggett” the T2 alien that’s replaced Mulder on X-files. If you include the body, it has to be Max, although I think it really is Kyle. How’s that for hedging my bets.

SF

hey, the boards are up again!

anyway sf, thank you for your comments. i'm struck by what you and rosta are saying about sacrifice. more and more it seems that the beings who generated the podsters had mixed and hidden agendas...

and perhaps their 'mother's' agenda was more personal, and the others invovled viewed the podsters as fodder for the greater agenda of the interstellar battle? i wish i could remember who discussed the podsters as chess pieces, was it you rosta? sorry if i've got the reference wrong...and is it possible that apparent death of a red giant in meet the dupes was actually the explosion of some technologically advanced item and was intended as some sort of signal? and if so, for who? also, i still view max's comment about being haunted by the red giant's death as a derivative communication about his own state of mind and need to reach out to his community.

jenlev

ps. thanks for the photos! is it 9pm on monday night yet?

Welcome [b]TVPOOH
I have explored the Encyclopedia Mythica and like it very much. If you like that you might also like Mything Links www.mythinglinks.com Thank you for the reference, because the name was eluding me.
[/B]

thank you for the warm welcome!! I came across the Encyclopedia Mythica while "researching" Harry Potter (LOL!). I'll be sure to look up Mything Links.

If anyone needs any information of goddesses I took a class called "The Goddess" in college last year and when I went home for Thanksgiving I picked up a book we used in class that has an excellent collection of goddess myths and representations. It's called
"The Goddess: Creation, Fertility, and Abundance The Sovereignty of Woman Myths and Archetypes"
the author is Shahrukh Husain
ISBN # 0-316-380058

I understand it was out of print and had to be special ordered by a book store.I did a report on a book I liked better but the name escapes me now!!=-( If I remember and anyone is interested I'll post it later.

Keep those ideas coming I enjoy reading them!!=-)
Pooh

There's a book called The White Goddess by Robert Graves that deals with the pale-haired blue-eyed female essence of life/death, virgin/whore, nurturer/devourer and muse of all poets and artists. She represents the ambivalent chaotic yin/yang female essence that is slightly older than the universe itself, because the universe struggled forth from it to be born and is in constant danger of sinking back. The book is a much older account of the goddess-figure than some of the newer feminist-inspired treatments, but it's one of the first and is certainly thorough. I need to rescue my copy from the pile of boxes in the garage.

Thanks for reminding me of this, Pooh!

Thanks for the info on sunflowers! Notice that Liz is shown among sunflowers in MTD.

One of my "pet" theories is that of the correlation of sun imagery to Max. While it is obvious to connect a king/emporer/ruler with the sun - as a Liz mythologist I find it significant that the sun and Venus are "twins". Fits well with the notion of yin-yang/balance/twin souls.

You are correct that Ava (which is an alternate spelling of Eve) has a sun on her stomach (and on her umbilicus no less - hmmmmmm). Furthermore - Liz has the same stylized sun in mirror form in her bedroom near the door (you see it quite clearly in Wipeout). Mrs. Evans also has a similar sun on the wall near the laundry machine.

Here is one of my favorite screencaps - it is from sexual healing. Note the stylized sun mirror with a "V" clearly reflected in it.
I am such a sucker for thoughtful art design <sigh> - I mean how lovely is this image?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

justsmile

SF thank you for posting those screencaps. Doggett!!!
As ususal you are way ahead of me. The passages you quoted from HB/HB stuck out for me, too. You've probably finished the book by now, but I'll get back to you about the passages I noted, particularly the one about the king having a 'mark' or 'brand' in light of what we saw in MITC and the power of the priest-king. Can't recall the page number, but it starts in chapter 9 (I pretty much ignore most of the book before chap 9 anyway).
TVPOOH, thank you for the goddess book reference and for offering your knowledge as a resource. Please don't wait for an invitation: please feel free to add what you think might be of interest to readers/ Roswell fans.

STARBOX, I saw the full post of yours on another ?R&I thread. Very , very nice. I have posted a few times a favorite picture in Liz's room also involving the mirror, but my interest was that is was a 12 point star.

SHAPESHIFTER thank you for the lightened and sharper photoedit. I have 3 photoediting programs but I don't have a website yet to display the benefits. I live by chromasolerize.
JENLEV, I am also intrigued by Max's choice of word, ie, being 'haunted' by the event. This will be something interesting to see played out.

I'm posting something next that has been of interest. It has taken ages to collect all the screencaps. I have some thoughts, but welcome other ideas.

Rosta

diamonds
lattices
wire fences

Obviously, the lattices and fences are in the diamond shape, but there are several stand-alone diamond motifs. NEMO posted several times on this theme, noting, among other instances, the diamond-pattern on Michaels shirt and the wallpaper as well as the diamond window in the Crashdown Café. Others have also posted on this theme and the diamonds on the cards in INTO the WOODS (I apologize, I don’t recall who brought this up initially; please speak up).

Is the 8 of diamonds a clue for ‘THE 8’ 8 podsters? Chess? Creation/rebirth/infinity?
(ITTW)
(I posted here and elsewhere, most recently on page 1 or 2 of SC IFI of MITC, if I’m not mistaken, that I found many similarities between Roswell and a book by this title (The 8) by Katherine Neville. The plot, in brief, involves a living human chess game played by the descendants, throughout history. The purpose was to locate the deliberately scattered pieces of an ancient chess set that held the secret of the universe- the Word, if you will-and great power embedded in symbols and codes. The one who possesses all the pieces and solves the code has the power. Especially the power ‘to kill the King’ (the monarchy) and establish a democratic system. OR destroy. Beware the White Queen. Redheads are ok.

In MITC, when Max is in the kitchen talking to Izzy, you will note, in this beautifully lit scene, that Max is framed by a lattice fence seen through the window. I would love to have a screencap of this. This lattice fence is just the latest among many scenes where this appears.

I don’t know the meaning. Perhaps a reference for diamonds. The Buddhist Diamond Path (see earlier pages of this thread for information and links on Diamond Path and Chakras). Perhaps a stylized reference for the DNA double helix. A reminder that plants, ie beans, are often supported by lattice fences? All the above? http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/mbg15/superstrings/superstrings.html http://www.pas.rochester.edu/~ejnisman/catgroup/squeez.htm

I have found lattices used in conjunction with optical lattices, superstring theory, quantum cryptography, and nano-technology, computer programming and, of course, crystalline structures such as diamonds. Are we being given some information about the platform, construction, or potential of the granilith??

MUST SEE!!!
beautiful and fun site CRYSTAL LATTICE STRUCTURES http://cst-www.nrl.navy.mil/lattice/
click on the link for lattice structure of diamonds, or go directly here: http://cst-www.nrl.navy.mil/lattice/struk/carbon.html

My book on Native American symbols and rock carvings associate repeating diamond shapes with plants (which intiated my scrutiny for plant motifs since season1): squash vines, beans, squash clan[/b]; diamond patterns are also associated water, particularly wavy patterns such as seen in Max’s curtains in EOTW; and snakes, snake clan

This screen cap made me think of the DNA double helix
Mrs Evans, the arc of light, and the helix?

Note the diamond shaped lines nestled in the ‘v’ of the light cone. Could be totally incidental, whatever happened to be on the wall, or a deliberately chosen motif to highlight? What many of you may have missed is that this specific motif filled most of the screen, for a few moments, during a scene change from Maria to Topolsky, seen in the alley . Coincidence?

Many of the podsters and humans are seen in from of or behind fences or lattice frames. And, of course, Michael has them on his walls and clothing.

Enjoy the screencaps. Look forward to comments and ideas.
My favorite:
HARVEST Max and Izzy each framed in a lattice window door

LEAVING NORMAL michael and lattice fence

MISSING Kyle and fence

MISSING lattice fence behind Max and Liz

INTO the WOODS Crashdown lattice windows w/ Maria and Liz

CRAZY Alex and fence

WHITE ROOM Max on the table

ASK NOT Michael’s wallpaper (Michael and Max)
SURPRISE Valenti and Maria in front of fence

SURPRISE Tess and Iz behind a fence

END of the WORLD Curtains in Max’s room

WHITE ROOM Michael behind fence

SUMMER of 47 Army iniform, behind fence

204-169 army fence
ASK NOT: Michael in front of a fence.

SEXUAL HEALING Drawing of the tower

DESTINY Tower model in the museum

Simple to read chess rules: http://www.playsite.com/games/board/chess/
Octave invariant music lattices (beats me, too) http://www.cix.co.uk/~gbreed/xtra.htm#5limit

~~Rosta~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

Sunflowers

StarBox and Rosta, what do you think of that UFO museum display in MTD with the sunflowers? It's just so weird, it looks like some inside joke. An alien mannequin sunbathing with a lei around his neck behind a picket fence that's covered with sunflowers. Bizarre! Also interesting that the three people in the scene are Liz, Maria and Alex. Sunflowers belong to the family Compositae, the old name for the family was Asteraceae. Now we know that Liz is a "composit" because of her healing… Doesn't aster mean star in Latin or Greek? I wonder what that tells us. Just a side note, the dictionary definition of aster is "plant with many petals around a central disk" that is a pretty good description of the star mirror in Liz's room. I have yet to see the one in the Evans house, but I'll try and pay more attention. Rosta, I thought it was interesting that in one of your links, they made the point that sunflowers domestication predate the power 3 (beans, corn and squash).

We also saw sunflowers in the UFO museum in WO in the scene where Maria sees the 'skin woman' framed by a window with a pie on the sill. Yet another totally bizarre display. I need to take a look at them again. In both scenes (if I remember correctly) the sunflowers are attached to a picket fence vs a lattice fence… Picket fences symbolizing parallel paths, lattice fences symbolizing intersecting paths??

Nemo, I hope you don't mind, I reposted your diamond post from page 3 of this thread.

quote:Originally posted by Nemo:
A week or two ago someone asked about symbolism concerning diamonds (GraceKel?). Today I found some things written during season 1 that may still be of interest:

See the four-diamond pattern on Michael's chest? Throughout season 1, this was everywhere -- on shirts, sweaters, necklaces, blankets (ITW), even embossed on the sheriff's couch. (Also on a sign behind Michael in the morgue in WR, cf. http://www.orcbs.msu.edu/Chemical/nfpa/nfpa.html ) I think this represents the four people AlienMom told about, who were supposed to become four podsters. Instead, at first we got only three, M/M/I. This is symbolized by a three-diamond picture at the Evans house where they hang out. (In the hall between M/I's rooms -- seen in RD, for example.) A fourth diamond is at the cafe, often seen right next to Liz. (Or the diamond-shaped window behind which we often see her.)

Season 2 addendum: in the Pilot that diamond on the cafe door is just marked in color on a square window. Later, the window itself is diamond shaped. Now we can see that this change was a historic restoration -- that's how Pete Parker had it in 1947.

Valentifan and TVPooh thanks for mentioning the goddess books. I'll have to see if I can find them. Rosta, The 8 also sounds fascinating. Time for yet another trip to my disappointing library. At least we only have to "Beware of the White Queen," the Red Queen hasn't come out to play .

So Rosta, who did you think it was in the screencap?

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
As ususal you are way ahead of me.

I know you're just looking for a compliment now. You are so far ahead of the game that it takes me months to catch up. I've been very resistant to your idea that there's a really ancient connection between Max's world and earth, which you've been saying from the start, and now it's definitely looking like that's the case.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
The passages you quoted from HB/HB stuck out for me, too. You've probably finished the book by now, but I'll get back to you about the passages I noted, particularly the one about the king having a 'mark' or 'brand' in light of what we saw in MITC and the power of the priest-king.

I've almost finished it. Yup, I also picked up on the mark reference in HB/HB. I have a bit of a problem with the royal seal. Way back when Roswell started there was a lot of discussion on Elyssah's message board (when her board disappeared, a lot of the people posting there came over to FF) about the sexual overtones of Max healing Liz. I remember commenting that he "put his mark" on her. To me that seemed to have S&M overtones. I've been ignoring that idea since then. Shapeshifter on the Liz Mythology thread made some comment about "the mark of the beast" in reference to the seal. At one level, putting an identifying mark on your hero/ine is a pretty standard plot device, on another level there's all the implications of ownership and possessions. IMHO, it made Max seem like much more of a pawn in the whole game than I had previously thought. The dupes also contribute to that idea. If they can clone Zan's essence into more than one person, then the importance of each individual clone and hybrid goes down. Kinda like "The boys from Brazil," TPTB only need one success. In Roswell, we only know of two clone-hybrids, and dupe-Zan was apparently defective, so he wouldn't have had the royal seal. But there's been plenty of time for multiple tries...

SF

SF

SF, is not that I disagree with you, no, not at all. But I think Mommogram explained on May 14th that their essense was, "duplicated, cloned and mixed with human genetic material so you might be recreated into human beings." And I find myself taking this quite literally with the arrival of the dupes.

I think that there was a necessary order to develop the podsters from their proto-selves.
1) Essense was duplicated (they made the dupes)
2) The dupes were cloned (podsters were made)
3) Lastly, they were hybridized, only the second set, the "good" set were ever expected to be recreated into human beings.

While that explains how the NY4 would think that they being the "originals" would entitle them to the RoyalFour status, it also explains why the granolith was left with the NM4. Only one set was expected to be recreated into human beings.

The next glaring question is why allow the NY4 to be podded and taken to Earth? How about because if the NM4 failed, they could go to the NY4 and begin the cloning process all over again.

Ive got some fascinating stuff on diamonds - I just have to research one more source first - if my daughter will let me - I'll try to get it up this afternoon.
(LOVED the screencaps BTW - I played with the idea of a career in theatrical art design for a while and I LOVE to see it done so well!)

Oh I almost forgot - I think the face looks like Kyle :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I think that there was a necessary order to develop the podsters from their proto-selves.
1) Essense was duplicated (they made the dupes)
2) The dupes were cloned (podsters were made)
3) Lastly, they were hybridized, only the second set, the "good" set were ever expected to be recreated into human beings.

While that explains how the NY4 would think that they being the "originals" would entitle them to the RoyalFour status, it also explains why the granolith was left with the NM4. Only one set was expected to be recreated into human beings.

Hi Qfanney,
Feel free to disagree with me any time. It's the best way to come up with new ideas or to plug the holes in old ideas.

I think taking the Mommagram literally is a really good idea.

1 and 2 make sense beautifully. Having duplicated and the cloned the royal four, they end up with 2 copies of each essence. A copy of the originals (duplicates), who are dead, and a copy of a copy (duplicates cloned).

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
3) Lastly, they were hybridized, only the second set, the "good" set were ever expected to be recreated into human beings.

But the Mommagram says:
"duplicated, cloned and mixed with human genetic material so you might be recreated into human beings."

I have a slightly different spin on 3, I'd say it applies to all eight essences. If I were the person bioengineering this, I would first have mixed the "copy of a copy" essence with the human genetic material. The "copy of a copy" would be the test run that all the tweaking would be done on, because you would expect more errors in a "copy of a copy" than in a copy of an original. Also to test the viability of your hybrid, you'd want it to survive for a while. The NY4 were the copy of the copy, and they had to pod them just to see if they'd continue to grow. So the NY4's sac with 4 pods is the prototype. So, yeah, they're the original hybrids, but they're the "copy of a copy" in terms of the essences. With all the prototype problems sorted out, I would hybridize the better copy (copy of the original) with the human genetic material, so the NM4 are the "more original" royal hybrids in terms of alien essence. Hence they have the granolith, and Max gets the royal seal.

I have a bit of a problem with the semantics of the mommagram. Duplicate and clone are a tautology to me. A duplicate is a copy in a generic sense, a clone is an identical copy of an adult in a biological sense.

If we equate the alien essence with DNA (sorry I have to go there even though I don't want to), then the original copies would have been harvested from the dead royal four. But the mommagram said their essences were duplicated. Is she implying some kind of exact copy of the original? It's a snap to PCR DNA, i.e. make huge amounts of identical copies, technically all original. Of course this is purified DNA, not DNA as chromosomes in the nucleus of a cell. If they're having to work with adult cells (like Dolly), and you can get cleavage/division to start (as normally occurs in a zygote), there's quite a long period of time where you can separate those dividing cells, and division continues with no adverse effects. So right now, even some earth scientist could make a whole lot of original copies of some dead people. And in current semantics they would all be referred to as clones. But I think you're right that we should take the mommagram literally. I'm just really hung up on what happened to the original material that the duplicates were made from. If I were the bioengineer I'd be keeping as much of the original material as I could in a super cold freezer. They had whole adult bodies to harvest material from. There's more than enough material to make armies upon armies of the royal fours. Sorry about the rant. I just need to let it go, it's not that important to the story.

I've been uncomfortable with Max referring to his alien essence as alien DNA this season. I liked the vague essence idea a bit more, kinda like the alien essence was their soul.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny: The next glaring question is why allow the NY4 to be podded and taken to Earth? How about because if the NM4 failed, they could go to the NY4 and begin the cloning process all over again.

Everything points to the NY4 being expendable. They are the decoys, they just don't know it, but now everyone else does...
I doubt they'd clone the NY4. I'm pretty convinced they have errors in their copies of the essence.

This is probably all irrelevant anyway.

SF

Great Behr Pic....there Rosta. Nothing makes my day, like a great sighting!!!!

Still reading and trying to keep up with the discussion here. But, being a florist...we are now full throttle into the "silly season" and my time is consumed by consumers.

Happy December....not my favorite month...sheesh.

Star_Dust2

Great scene....and neat place to hide an identifying mark.

Star_Dust2

I have always thought that the swirl on the orb represents Max and liz - their "twin souls", the fact that they are Yin/Yang - will provide BALANCE, yada yada yada.
Max and Liz (in my opinion) are often shown framed together in a way that sugests the outline of the swirl.

Redhawk posted this image from an alternate ending to leaving normal - check out the way Max and Liz perfectly reflect the swirl at the end - down to the EXACT angle of Liz's elbow/arm and the bottom of the swirl. How COOL is this????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Here is what I found interesting on the diamond. When researching it - I found that it shares the symbolism of the CENTRE. If you imagine a diamond with lines connecting the four points - meeting together at the centre. It is the immutability and perfect symmetry that gives the diamond its stength.

When researching the symbolism of the CENTRE I found a few things that relate to Roswell.

First:
"The centre is the spot where opposing forces accumulate and co-exist, a place where energy is at its most concentrated. It is the BALANCE of opposing forces."

And now - from Central America - Inca/Aztec symbols/myth are very interesting because of the theoretical "alien" connection these cultures had.

"the centre is depicted surrounded by the four gods who correspond to the first four suns, painted in the four fundamental colors (red,black,white and blue) - and joined together by blood-red lines. in the centre is the figure of Quetzalcoatl, god of the rising SUN. Other illustrations depect a multi-colored Tree of Life in the centre."

This fits very well with the FIVE planets - four(the first four suns) on the periphery with MAX (god of the RISING sun) in the centre - perhaps explaining why the four rulers seem to defer ultimately to Max as the authority - not only of his planet - but their entire star system.

Now - on the symbolism of the Tree of Life:
The tree of Life as a symbol of the growth and increasing power of a monarch, can abruptly invert its polarity and become a Tree of death".

This reminded me of River Dog - where Liz takes the "yin/yang swirl" pendant to the Indian reservation and the peddler tells her it means "TREE of Knowlege" - and then RiverDog tells her it means "DEATH".
The Tree of Life that was Max's monarchy became a Tree of Death - but now it has been reborn......................

Dont know how coherent any of that was <sigh> just got back from a hectic road trip and I am feeling a bit foggy :-)
All quotes are from "The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols" by Jean Chevalier.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Thanks for that terrific post on the method of creating dupes. Rosta sorry if this goes off topic a bit. I have always found the speech of the mommogram to be more symbolic than literal, however, since Meet the Dupes, I am changing my mind. I feel the *need* to respond to SF though.

Regarding the creation of the dupilicates and podsters, I too am troubled over the words of "clone" and "duplicate". It really makes me feel as if the Twilonese have the mother of all Xerox machines. But I think if I put this in a different context, it would help. I am not sure if we agree or disagree. I just feel that making the dupes was a necessary step in the creation of the podsters. Let me explain.

I used to be in the television production feild. I know how to edit videotape (analog methods). The basic steps were to go and shoot the footage and then look for the stuff you wanted to use off of your master tape. This is the editing process. Sometimes I would key in letters or wording into the picture, edit in the sound and other effects. Regardless of what my final product was, I still had my original materials- raw footage. The original recording was always kept so that way I could re-edit my cut together if something happened to it. But I would not directly duplicate the raw footage. There is too much garbage on it. When I would get done editing, my master cut was then given to our traffic manager. They would then turn it over to the advertising insertion machine operator for the "final" bits of editing that would allow my cut to air on TV. This copy and only this copy can be inserted into the air time of the channel. So in essense (sorry, went for the pun) I think the podsters were recreated into human beings in much the same way.

1) duplicated (the dupes were made-- this would the the editing of the raw footage)
2) cloned (the podsters- this would be the version that can be aired onto the cable channel.)
3) recreated-hybridize (This would be the result of the actually insertion of the ad/PSA I made onto the channel. My raw footage had to become something else in order to by aired, like the podsters having to be hybridized to be recreated into human beings.)

So, what I am saying, is that the podsters had to have the dupes in order to exist. And the dupes should be kept around in case something happens to the podsters. It is a lot easier to resend my 'master cut' into the traffic manager, than it is for me to start again from scratch.

I also agree that this point will probably never be addressed. The dupes were not ever intended to be *legitimate* but they do have a very factual and real purpose, and I think that purpose is outside the decoy reasoning you give. Although, the decoy reason is sound.

Thanks so much for the editing information. I've just learned something new. Your scenario doesn't quite fit with human genetics (and I keep reminding myself that that doesn't mean it has any relevance to Roswell), but given the world the writers for the show live in, I think your explanation fits the show better. In your opinion, do people peripheral to the editing process have a working concept of the editing process? So would everyone involved; writers, actors, staging people, camera people, etc., have a fairly similar conotation to the words original or raw footage, master cut and final cut? If everyone in the TV or movie world is really comfortable and familiar with these concepts, I wonder if some "group think" made it into the script. The writers came up with the words, and everyone reading them felt they made sense, but they only make sense to people who have an editing perspective?

Qfanny said
So, what I am saying, is that the podsters had to have the dupes in order to exist. And the dupes should be kept around in case something happens to the podsters. It is a lot easier to resend my 'master cut' into the traffic manager, than it is for me to start again from scratch.

Given your way of thinking about it, and quite possibly the writers as well, I can see the importance of the dupes. Which really does reinforce your question from the previous page: Why send the dupes to earth if they're that important? Their odds of being damaged or lost have increased significantly.

Thanks again for all the editing information. Lets hope we get some useful information on the subject this season.

SF

thanks,
justsmile

Hey justsmiles

It's a reference to an old Dick Van Dyke show, and I believe GraceKel was the first one to use it as a reference to the home planet. I don't know the details of the reference, but maybe someone else will add that information.

SF

Nothing new to add right now.

bump

Of The Dick Van Dyke Show's characters, Rob Petrie was the one who usually kept his head, while Sally, Buddy, Laura, and Mel were losing theirs all around him. That's a big part of the appeal of this utterly surreal episode, in which Rob seems to be losing not just his head but his imagination -- and both his thumbs. He stays up late one night watching a thriller about an alien from the planet Twilo who wants to take over the world. The extraterrestrial has eyes in the back of his head, eats walnuts, speaks with a British accent, and looks just like Danny Thomas -- in fact, the creature is played by Thomas himself, who, insiders know, co-owned the company that created The Dick Van Dyke Show. People who are exposed to Absorbitron, a chemical the alien possesses, lose their thumbs and their imaginations. When Rob wakes up the next morning, he finds the living-room carpet strewn with walnuts. In the kitchen, a smiling Laura (Mary Tyler Moore) opens an egg carton and offers him a walnut omelette for breakfast. At work, Buddy (Morey Amsterdam) is eating walnuts, not his usual pistachios, and there are walnuts in Rob's typewriter. Is Rob, pardon the expression, cracking up? He thinks so -- until he wakes up from his nutty nightmare. Seventeen-hundred walnuts were used in "It May Look Like a Walnut"; the ones that didn't open on cue were sent back, and that is what executive producer Sheldon Leonard wanted to do with the extravagant script when he first read it. But when Leonard saw how well the inventive walnut episode played in front of an audience, he gave it the thumbs-up.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Thanks-- insightful, might be a bit strong. I really thought there was nothing special in this opinion, but if everyone likes it, it makes me happy!

Love reading your posts too!

shapeshifter!

Thanks for the Twilo reference. You better keep that on hand for the future.

The GOLDEN AGE OF SATURN http://www.nd.edu/~llivings/ac/Roman/AraPacis.html

QUOTE from above: Augustus convinced his people that he was not like the former generals seeking political dominance through military might and public oppression. While the political state of Rome had manently changed, Augustus instigated a program of cultural revival to bring back the forlorn mos maiorum: the traditions, faiths, virtues, values, and morals of Rome’s ancestors. Through this program of cultural revival, Augustus reminded the people who they were and showed them who he was by leading Rome into the Pax Romana: a new reign of social stability, economic progress and reestablished order, law, and justice. Furthermore, the Roman people could rely and depend on him as their princeps: their political, military, moral, and spiritual leader. New and old religious festivals, political reforms, legal reforms, temple restoration, and a restoration in part of the former senatorial power of the Republic were just some of the effects of his program of cultural revival. The use of Golden Age imagery in Augustan propaganda draws a parallel between his Pax Romana and the Saturnian Golden Age, thereby making the statementthat Augustus has brought about a new age of idealistic peace and prosperity to endure for all time. Augustus hoped to bridge the distinctions between the ages of Saturn and Jupiter by incorporating both ideologies into his reign. In the reestablished order, laws, morals, and justice he respected the current Age of Jupiter; in the renewed peace, prosperity, abundance, and endurance he sought to emulate the utopian, mythic Age of Saturn. Augustus seemed to desire that the
Roman people metaphorically associate him with both Jupiter and Saturn. Augustus was Rome’s nurturing provider and her virtuous, lawful patron

A bit of trivia: the God Saturn = Kronos is associated with Time = Chronos; Saturnalia celebrated the God. The legendary Nicholas (who may or may not have been either real or a saint) may have originated as a Saturn figure/legendary descendant, hence 'St' Nick may also have been associated with 'father time'as well.

Rosta

Hope to be back over the weekend

Thanks, GraceKel and shapeshifter for the Twilo details. It's cool the way it's been picked up as the name of the homeworld.

Rosta, thanks for the link. Augustus sounds like an interesting character. I hope your life slows down soon.

Hey StarBox,

I loved your posts, they really got me thinking.

World Religions
I've been rewatching some of season 1, specifically with the some of the dragon theories in mind from the Liz Mythology thread. I have to say up front that everyone on that thread is so creative and prolific that I'm thoroughly convinced that there are no new ideas. So here I am rediscovering for myself ideas that have probably already had their fair share of board time. Maybe something will catch someone's eye.

Here's a screen cap of Max with serpent/dragon in the background from MitC.

One of the dragon theories is that they protect treasures, and since it's on Liz's window, she must be the treasure. My apologies for being unable to acknowledge the specific person who first came up with that idea. I was struck by Kyle referring to Liz's room as Mecca in BD. Mecca is the most holy city in the Muslim religion. Is this a foreshadowing of Liz's room being a holy place because it contains someone holy? That's the only reference I can think of to Islam.

The end of last season and quite a bit this season we've had all the references to Buddhism. I think they have all been exclusively related to Tess and Kyle.

Max's messianic storyline has been strong in both seasons. I was trying to think if we'd had much Christian symbology. In Crazy or TLV there were nuns and crosses, and then I rediscoverd a rosary (I think) in sexual healing. I'd actually like other people's opinions on this because it's not clear.

StarBox, you actually referenced this image in one of your earlier posts.
"Note the stylized sun mirror with a "V" clearly reflected in it."

Take a look at this on video. It's definitely a beaded necklace with a pendant at the bottom. The pendant could be a crucifix, and the beads are set up as a group of adjacent beads, a space, a bead, a space, and then a group of adjacent beads - just like a rosary. If it is a rosary, the twelve points of the star could have Christian importance, i.e., the twelve tribes of Israel, the twelve stations of the cross, etc.. The beaded necklace (I think it's the same one) is hanging over the mirror in the "v" shape in BD as well, but the pendant part is not visible.

The same beaded necklace as in BD was already there in the Balance.

Dragons/serpents

The serpent/dragon on Liz's window has been really obvious this season. I'm not sure when it showed up last season, but it was definitely there in BD. Max walks in front of the window towards Kyle shortly before the time of the above screencap. You can also clearly see it in ID

It seems to be more of a serpent dragon than a winged beast. I looked up dragons, and there are a whole lot of different kinds. The fact that it was red and serpent-like made me think that it was more like a chinese dragon. "In esoteric Chinese thought, there are dragons which are linked with colour-symbolism: the red dragon is the guardian of higher science…" (p.88, A dictionary of symbols, J.E. Cirlot). I thought that fit Liz pretty well.

I was still struck by the serpent-like shape of the dragon, so I looked up serpents. They can be symbolic of energy itself, they are guardians of immortality (springs of life -grail?) and hidden treasure. Lilith is sometimes personified as a snake or identified with a snake. "Because it sheds it's skin, it symbolizes resurrection." (Cirlot) Rosta has already done an excellent job of explaining the snake coiled at the base of the spine (Tantric) that uncoils through the chakras to the third eye of Shiva.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian
And the Merovingian dynasty(founded by Merovee), who claimed themselves priest-king
descendants of the messianic bloodline, claimed descent, via Arcadia, from people 'beyond the sea'
Sea People

"…the legendary birth of Merovee - child of two fathers, one of them a symbolic marine creature from beyond the sea…" would it be stretching things too far to assume some kind of sea serpent? Lets also not forget Le Serpent Rouge (from HB/HG), which makes "mention of a red snake uncoiling across the centuries - an explicit allusion, it would seem, to a bloodline or lineage." Is it yet getting too coincidental?

quote: Originally quoted by StarBox
Now - on the symbolism of the Tree of Life: The tree of Life as a symbol of the growth and increasing power of a monarch, can abruptly invert its polarity and become a Tree of death".

The serpent is often found encircled around a tree or a staff. A snake around the tree of life is symbolic of evil (Cirlot).

quote: Originally quoted by StarBox
This reminded me of River Dog - where Liz takes the "yin/yang swirl" pendant to the Indian reservation and the peddler tells her it means "TREE of Knowlege" - and then RiverDog tells her it means "DEATH".
The Tree of Life that was Max's monarchy became a Tree of Death- but now it has been reborn...................... ]

AND

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
I have always thought that the swirl on the orb represents Max and liz - their "twin souls", the fact that they are Yin/Yang - will provide BALANCE, yada yada yada.

The Ouroboros (serpent biting its own tail) has similar symbolic meaning to yin-yang.

It was at about this point that I dived off the deep end. It's probably all spurious, but it's been a fun exercise. Thinking about staffs/trees and snakes, I was led to the caduceus. From http://www.occultopedia.com/c/caduceus.htm "the name given to a number of different symbolic wands, first appearing in ancient Mesopotamian cultures around 2600 Be, consisting of two serpents or basilisks twisted around a rod. … the symbol has been widely adopted as a symbol of the medical profession… In Hindu and Buddhist esoteric teachings the caduceus represents the two spiritual energies or healing forces which run up and down the human spine." Or from Cirlot's dictionary (emphasis mine)…"the same idea of active equilibrium, of opposing forces balancing one another in such a way as to create a higher, static form."

From the same URL, here's an image of a pretty standard caduceus. There are often wings at the top of the staff.

Here's an image with the snakes wrapped around a leafed branch. Notice the more sin-wave wrapping.

The looser wrapping of the snakes reminded me of the screencap Rosta always references of "Mrs Evans, the arc of light, and the helix" from Sexual Healing.
When I rewatched SH, I saw that the cone of light was intentional. The lighted cone/triangle doesn't appear until Max and Liz close the door to the crashdown. The whole sequence does draw attention to the intersecting sin-waves and the cone.

I've been involved in a lot of 3 dimensional reconstructions from serial sections, so that's where the next leap comes from.

The images should illustrate (well hopefully, it might not make any sense to anyone else) what I'm trying to say.

Aethetically and perhaps symbolically, is in balance. looks unbalanced, but structurally stronger. The above was more just a visual exercise for me, but the symbols do tie in to an idea I've had about the cave map.

is the highest point, and if you read the map the way I've set it up, it's both the beginning and the end point (Alpha and Omega). Max's race started out in peace/balance (with Zan the dad maybe), and now the Quest has been set in motion for Max to return the kingdom to peace/balance.
IMHO, the "past" timeline seems to hang together. You have the starting point, the crash, and then the podcave. The pod-symbol is spatially near the pod-cave, and the orb was found near it as well.

The "present" timeline (in a loose sense,maybe I should rename it "earth" timeline), could potentially hold together. From the pod cave, you have emergence (we have 2 versions of that story and 3 images), and then the yin-yang symbol. StarBox, I think your interpretation is great, Liz is definitely part of this picture. The yin-yang symbol is equivalent to "the right here and right now present" (i.e., Roswell as we see it) in the timeline. The development of Max (and the royal four?) into someone who can restore the balance. In messianic terms, preparing both Max and the homeworlds for his "second coming," i.e., the return home and the "future" timeline.

Here are the three versions of emergence, all from the Balance.
From the cave:

From Max's drawing:

From Michael's hallucination:

Thanks for getting through all that.

SF

quote:Originally posted by SF:
...The images should illustrate (well hopefully, it might not make any sense to anyone else) what I'm trying to say.

And there's some Max-as-type-of-Christ stuff on the Season 1 Archive site at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/archetypes.htm

Thanks for letting me know that you got my drawings. They make sense to me of course, but it's always great to have that confirmed by an external source. I checked out your and Qfanny's website. It's been a while since the last time I was there. You guys have been working really hard. It's looking good. The Rocky Raccoon analysis is hilarious

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
Even if the writers didn't intend it, it could be an archetypal image from their essences! Seriously! (shapeshifter to self: Stop laughing!)

No not seriously! No alien archtypes, no intention by the writers, just the mad meanderings of a chronic lateral thinker...

SF

About World Religions, I have one addition for you to add. In TMA, Liz enters the Crashdown and there are a bunch of nuns eating. It always bothered me that there would be so many nuns in the small town of Roswell. What were they doing there, visiting the UFO center?

In regards to Lilith and the double helix - dragons, great insights. I will forever be trying to absorb how you figured all this out.

I love the cross-cuts to the symbols too! Absolutely terrific. I bet you are in Mensa!

On the triangle, I like how the triangle seems to be equalaterial. That in turn meaning, that the Past, Present and Future all are equally important.

Ok, I'm off to read it again!

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:

Also: After Liz tells Alex about the alien thing and they get out of jail, she tells Alex: "I will never, ever lie to you again. I promise." Now, post-FM, Liz has a secret again. She tells Maria. Alex is coming back (after Colin finishes his Swedish gig). Will Roswellian history repeat itself?

Let's hope not.

SF

Are you sure you're not thinking of Crazy? Nemo's post on your archtypes page (Maxedo's site) reminded me of the nuns.

I bet you are in Mensa![/QUOTE] I'm not Mensa material, but thank you for your kind words.

SF

I remember thinking the Nuns were really Fibbies in disguise.

that is to funny

GREAT IDEAS BY THE WAY!!

Also, did you guys notice in Summ '47 that behind Hal there was this green thing (trash can) with a yellow Triangle (when he is at is desk on the military base, I noticed it before he confronted dody in the office).

justsmile

...

that picture is absolutely more then wonderful! thank you SF! and shapeshifter as you mentioned on the previouse page , did the writer's and the producers do this consciously? or was it and expression of an archetypal mandate?

and thank you shapeshifter for the galaxy photo. i love the pattern repetition displayed in these posts. the internal microcosm of a spiral helix repeated in the macrocosm of the universe's structure.

it's interesting that there are all these ancient spiral images and when the dna helix, and the shape of the galaxies are able to be viewed they reflect the same pattern?!

it seems that the podsters roles reflect this internal/external repetition: their relationships within themselves echoed in their relationships with others? and their relationship with their human and alien heritages twined about each other like the helix and other spiral images shown in the preceeding posts.

jenlev

That's a really good idea shapeshifter. In terms of the way "home", maybe is how "the milky way" is seen from their home planet, and is how their galaxy is viewed from earth, or vice versa, or, as you suggested, one galaxy, different viewpoints (where's the viewpoint from though? -- It has to be outside both galaxies.).

Here's the whirlpool galaxy M51, a spiral seen in one orientation
Here's another spiral M83, the southern pinwheel it matches the orientation of very nicely.

Would the Sombrero galaxy, M104(another spiral)
and the Spindle galaxy (NGC 5866)
look like if viewed from a different point in space? This spiral galaxy M81 Bode's galaxy has definite "lilith" look

All galaxy images are from The Messier Catalog. Both Nemo and Rosta posted fairly extensively on M51 after the first airing of Sexual Healing. Maybe they'll have something to add to this discussion.

SF

Shapeshifter, your daughter's comment about "2 double helixes wrapped around a pencil" sounds like she could be talking about a chromosome pair, but I could just have misunderstood what you wrote. If I find out something defintive, I'll post it.

Absolutely BRILLIANT post. I love the way that you tied together the past/present/future - extremely cool! Fits so well with the Run Lola Run theories as well.

For your "emergence" stuff (which I think is RIGHT on) - check this out. Watch the "EMERGENCY" sign - when Liz and Max come together it reads "EMERGE" and when they form the yin-yang it says "MERGE".
"EMERGE and "MERGE" - sounds like a new theory to me. :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Both screencaps are from MITC.
they both fit with the theory of Liz as one of the "two of diamonds". Also - the "emerge" and "merge" theory - that is that Liz must "emerge" into her powers before she can "merge" with Max and complete the balance.
The first image is of Liz's PJs when she comforts Ava. They are covered in a symbol that looks like a DIAMOND with a dot in its center and four "rods" extending from its points. On either side of the diamond are half ovals that almost touch to complete a circle. This could be the "FIFTH ELEMENT" symbol. The diamond connects the four points together - with a "fifth element" in the middle.

Now - here is a symbol that you see IMMEDIATELY after Liz dematerializes in NYC.
Max looks across the street and you see a wall with a oval/circle with a diamond in the middle. In this screencap - it looks more like a triangle but if you look for it on the tape it is clearly a diamond.
I don't think it is a coincidence that they showed two diamond-in-an-oval symbols with Liz. What intrigues me is that after she uses her powers - the oval around the diamond is complete.

A huge thanks to The DDD www.theDDD.com who were kind enough to make these custom screencaps for me :-)

If they dont show up - here is the link to each one: http://members.aol.com/lizmythologist/lizpj.jpg http://members.aol.com/lizmythologist/street.jpg

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

justsmile

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

remember in The end of the world, future Max uses a Crystal to activate the Granilith. Well I was thinking since we don't know what kind of crystal it is reasonable to prosume that it maybe a very large Diamond? and maybe liz has to be near it to work, she was with f.max after all when it worked and she probably took the diamond back with her after he left.

okay just a theory, could explain the diamond thing!!!

by the way great job everyone!! this is my favorite theory board!

justsmile

More generally, I looked up diamond in the sense of a gem, not the rhomboid shape, in Cirlot's Dictionary of Symbols. Diamonds or gems signify treasure, which again brings us back to the dragon that guards the treasure. "Treasures gaurded by dragons allude to the difficulties of the struggle for knowledge ... the sum of experiences,...inextricably bound up with living and evolution." I'm beginning to wonder if the diamond signifies Liz's hero's quest. The gem, symbolic of knowledge, is frequently associated with the snake, representing energy. Maybe the closed circle around the diamond could be taken as an Ouroboros (snake biting it's tail), symbolically equivalent to the dichotomy of the Yang-Yin symbol. Perhaps the new symbol indicates the next step in Liz's quest for knowlege as her changed self balances with her human self.

SF

********************************************

Hey SF -
I am sure you know there is alot of speculation that Tess was not "Tess" when Max found her conveniently deposited to take "home to Roswell".
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Great info on the diamond :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

give me your opinion before I confess myself even more

give me your opinion before I confess myself even more

Hey justsmiles,

Are you thinking a doppelganger idea where everone has an exact duplicate, or of an alterego idea, where the people look the same, but are opposites. The dupes seemed a bit of a hybrid of the two ideas (pun unintended). When you said "maybe they're complete with the other half", do you envisage a physical coming together of the two halves or are you thinking something more metaphysical. My favorite coming together of two opposites are the mystics and the skecksies (sp?) in the Dark Crystal. Your earlier post on the crystal and the granolith is another scene that always reminds me of the Dark Crystal.

SF

First of all - one thing that has been nagging at the back of my mind is the conspicuous absence of the FATHER. The father is a pretty strong archetype - and yet Max seems to have no desire/longing to find out anything about his father - nor does he feel a connection to him. Since his father would have been the KING - doesnt this seem odd?
Isabel seems to have a longing for the MOTHER. And - if we read Liz as a "virgin mary" figure (more on that in a second) - then Max to could be on a "mother quest" of sorts - or at least seeking a connection the feminine. But why? Why not the father?????

Okay - now for the virgin mary.
Here is a screencap of Lis-as-Mary.

I have a little trouble with Liz LITERALLY as the virgin mary (I dont want her to have to stay a virgin and I dont want her having an immaculate conception) - BUT if you look at the Mary story in terms of Eve (and Lilith) one interpretation is basically this:
Mankind fell because of a woman's (EVE) temptation of man. HOWEVER - mankind was then REDEEMED through a woman "MARY".

Suposse Tess is Lilth (this fits with QFanny's "dupe" method post) but was somehow "defective" (Like Lilth). Ava (which is an alternate spelling of EVE) is Eve. Not a "defective" mate - but one whoose presence caused (directly or indirectly) the FALL.
Liz is then Mary - the redeemer.

Jung actually said that the soul"anima" had four "stages" - the first is symbolized by Eve, the third by Mary. I just have not been able to piece it all together ina way that satisfies me yet. I am hoping you all can help :-)

Screencap courtesy of www.theddd.com (a great source of caps!)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Excellent catch. Last season, I was struck by Max's paternalistic role in the trio. Maybe he views it as a weakness to look for a parent figure when in some ways he views himself as a parent figure or in a position of leadership. Also, if you look at the trio as a unit, then Isabel represented the search for a mother figure, and the intense mother-daughter relationship, and Michael, the search for the father figure. For max to be searching for a mother or father would have taken away from the other two characters roles, but I agree that it does seem to be a big oversight.

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
Okay - now for the virgin mary.
Here is a screencap of Lis-as-Mary.

I have a little trouble with Liz LITERALLY as the virgin mary (I dont want her to have to stay a virgin and I dont want her having an immaculate conception) - BUT if you look at the Mary story in terms of Eve (and Lilith) one interpretation is basically this:
Mankind fell because of a woman's (EVE) temptation of man. HOWEVER - mankind was then REDEEMED through a woman "MARY".

Suposse Tess is Lilth (this fits with QFanny's "dupe" method post) but was somehow "defective" (Like Lilth). Ava (which is an alternate spelling of EVE) is Eve. Not a "defective" mate - but one whoose presence caused (directly or indirectly) the FALL.
Liz is then Mary - the redeemer.

Jung actually said that the soul"anima" had four "stages" - the first is symbolized by Eve, the third by Mary. I just have not been able to piece it all together ina way that satisfies me yet. I am hoping you all can help :-)

I think it sounds great. Since Ava and Tess are duplicates of each other maybe symbolically they are both Eve and Lilith, and you could almost use them interchangeably in your theory. If you're right, we can expect a crisis caused by Ava or Tess, but prevented by Liz. MitC almost parallels your theory.

SF

Mogley

Hello I have a LOT of catching up to do as this thread -sadly, but magnificently - approaches the magic 250. As I get my thoughts organized to respond to the fantastic posts, ideas, pictures/screencaps - and posters! - on this thread. Welcome to all new readers, posters and lurkers..and thanks to the bumpers . I thought I might share this amazing link with you which I found today. PBS had a program on the life of Nickola Tesla recently which, unfortunatley, I missed it, I was reading ‘The Magic Circle' and, researching references to Tesla and also to the ‘dragon lines' or ‘dragon forces' in the earth mentioned in the book, I stumbled on this link first and noted that the program had aired Dec 12.

Realizing that ROSWELL writers borrow from numerous sources, sometimes just for inside jokes rather than for informing the storyline, I have wondered if Tess, and later Nicholas, were names chosen to pay homage to this fascinating scientist and inventor, just as perhaps the name Maxwell pays some homage to James Clerk Maxwell. Electromagnetism occupies a large role in the scifi of Roswell. Related, unrelated, coincidence- form your own opinions. It's all in fun here at Signs&Symbols. Submitted for your reading pleasure! Oh, and note the sponser for the PBS program. Lightening bolts, towers, death rays...oh, my!

You gotta love this front page!
TESLA: MASTER of LIGHTENING http://www.pbs.org/tesla/

Click on Life and Times on the front page.

If your on-line time is very limited like mine, especially with the holidays looming, let me direct you to two of the subheadings on the second page.

A Weapon to End War http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_wendwar.html
Think of Tunguska, which some claim was an unintended result a test of his machine which he intended to aim at the arctic.

Colorado Springs http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_colspr.html
QUOTE Another approach pursued by Tesla was to transmit extra-low-frequency signals through the space between the surface of the earth and the ionosphere. Tesla calculated that the resonant frequency of this area was approximately 8-hertz. It was not until the 1950s that this idea was taken seriously and researchers were surprised to discover that the resonant frequency of this space was indeed in the range of 8-hertz.

Bookmark the site and come back and read moresuch as The Missing Papers: http://www.pbs.org/tesla/ll/ll_mispapers.html
QUOTE Just after World War II, there was a renewed interest in beam weapons. Copies of Tesla's papers on particle beam weaponry were sent to Patterson Air Force Base in Dayton, Ohio. An operation code-named "Project Nick" was heavily funded and placed under the command of Brigadier General L. C. Craigie to test the feasibility of Tesla's concept. Details of the experiments were never published, and the project was apparently discontinued. But something peculiar happened. The copies of Tesla's papers disappeared and nobody knows what happened to them.

Work on beam weapons also continued in the United States. In 1958 the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) initiated a top-secret project code-named "Seesaw" at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory to develop a charged-particle beam weapon. More than ten years and twenty-seven million dollars later, the project was abandoned "because of the projected high costs associated with implementation as well as the formidable technical problems associated with propagating a beam through very long ranges in the atmosphere." Scientists associated with the project had no knowledge of Tesla's papers.

I've referred to DARPA before in the the context of hybridization experiments, nanotechnolgy and human-biomechanical interfacing. I thought perhaps this research arm of the Dept of Defense might be the power, one of very human agents and agencies, that has been ‘hidden' in the mytharc to date. This woud be the agency to utilize alien materials, genetic or otherwise, to achieve one of it's stated goals: to create the perfect soldier.

Let me know what you think. Back later.

~~~Rosta~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~

P.S Speaking of diamonds in circles discussed in posts above, I have always found this emblem on Alex's shirt curious. More star shaped than diamond, perhaps this emblem has some other meaning, ie, product logo or a graphic on a rock group CD cover??

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

SF

Your post must be part of the kick-off for S&S 3 (which hopefully I can do during the holiday since I won't have time before). You hit every point I believe significant for the rest of the season. We have been given so many unifying clues and mysteries. The lattices and fences are major ones.

I had forgotten to append to my post/screencaps about the diamonds and lattices that the most important element in these pictures were the podsters. The VINES. The bloodlines. Max is standing in front of the trellis seen outside the kitchen window (MITC). A 'off-shoot' from the VINE. Whether from another time and place, other parts of this world (ie, ancient lineages) or from the hybridization labs: the vines- and the 'fruit' - have emerged. What was driven underground has emerged.

Can't wait for the screecaps for last nights ep. For the second time we have vine/trellis imagery uniting Maax and his Mom (Note the scene just before Max sees the ghost-his conscience?- in the laundry room. This time, there were roses. Very significant. Note the scene wheret there is one lit bulb next to her near the end. In MITC in particular, Max is usually shown with a single small light next to him (in addition to the larger 'halo' images). I was struck by the subtext and imagery in the ep. I got a real chill from the scene with Michael hammering the bumper. Five (five wounds)distinct sounds like the driving of spikes, almost as if a fore-shadowing that Max will have to die. At the end of the scene, one resonating final hard blow of the mallet. Like a punctuation. A prophesy.

STARBOX, hi!. You know, I have always wanted to read Caleb Carr and just have not had the chance. The Tesla references in 'Killing Time' sound so fascinating I'll try to read it in the bookstore when I go home over the holiday. Thanks for the mention.

Welcome GRANILITH and MOGLEY, UPNORTH and others. UPNORTH, The screen-caps you refer to come from MAX TO THE MAX. See the Images section of Crashdown and click on the MTTM thumbnail. They should be on the first page. You can also see some of the screencaps on page one of this thread and I hope you have a chance to read more and post here or elsewhere.

Thanks for the bumps and everything JUSTSMILE. And thanks to ALL friends and posters: SHAPESHIFTER, QFANNY, JENLEV, STAR-DUST2, and all of you.

Have to run to work.

Rosta

Hey UpNorth,
I PMed you with the Max to the Max info, and I saw that Rosta also responded in the thread, but I think this is the actual picture you're referring to:

This is from Redhawk's website, and s/he changed the drawing, putting Liz in the place of Tess. It's very well done, but it's not what's actually in the book.

SF

This is from Redhawk's website, and s/he changed the drawing, putting Liz in the place of Tess. It's very well done, but it's not what's actually in the book.

SF

wow, that is realli good!
lates...

okay I was remembering that a pearl must come out of a shell before it is seen, and then it's a precious beauty, maybe the pearls itself represents Maria? or Michael? just ideas

justsmile

i found thess reference to the symbolism of pearls in the cirlot dictionary of symbols:

"shell [is] one of the eight emblems of good luck in chinese buddhism, found in allegories about royalty, and also a sign for a prosperous journey. this favourable implication is the result of the shell's association with water, the source of fertility. according to eliade, shells are also related to the moon and to woman. pearl-symbolism also is very closely linked with the shell."

he also states that: "other kinds of halos are sperical in form: the moslems, for example, often made use of the pearl to represent paradise and their belief was that the blessed, each one united with his houri, live in pearls."

it's striking that the pearl is developed by the irritation of the oyster by a grain of sand and subsequent secretion of the substance to cushion the oyster from that irritation.

jenlev

Let me take this opportunity to wish everyone a safe and fun winter holiday and peace for the new year.

Signs and Symbols is almost at the magic 250.
I will put up a new thread later next week. Stay tuned. The computer gets packed on Saturday, and since I'm disconnecting from my cable, I'll have to see about internet access at mom's house. Luckily I have Juno installed already.

This is a wonderful, fun, and visually beautiful thread and I'm looking forward to continuing.

See you soon.

~~Rosta~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

I hope y'all have a wonderful holiday. This is my first white Christmas ever, so I'm pretty excited.

Shapeshifter, thanks for archiving the thread. I've been pulling some stuff for myself, but I was getting the sinking feeling that the thread would be gone before I had the chance to finish.

I love all the pearl symbolism. Maybe the irritant Maria is turning Michael into a pearl. I've always thought he was a rough diamond myself.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
If you can find/add an '8' cadeuceus i would be grateful because i would like you to repost when S&S 3 goes up.

Cool. I'd love to repost it. I haven't yet had the chance to look for an '8' caduceus, but I will after the holidays.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:

... The VINES. The bloodlines. ... A 'off-shoot' from the VINE. Whether from another time and place, other parts of this world (ie, ancient lineages) or from the hybridization labs: the vines- and the 'fruit' - have emerged. What was driven underground has emerged.

Oh yes. I just love all these allusions.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:

... I was struck by the subtext and imagery in the ep. I got a real chill from the scene with Michael hammering the bumper. Five (five wounds)distinct sounds like the driving of spikes, almost as if a fore-shadowing that Max will have to die. At the end of the scene, one resonating final hard blow of the mallet. Like a punctuation. A prophesy.

That is chilling, but it could be the foreshadowing of a buried memory... Max has already died.

On to happier thoughts...

Happy Holidays
SF

I've basically skimmed what everyone has been writing and let me just say "Whoa!!! You guys are so cool, I'm most definitely coming back here!!"

happy winter solstice everyone. may your travels be safe and full of fun.

jenlev

Just wishing everyone a happy holiday this weekend! weather(sp?) it be christsmas, hanukkah, or kwenzia!!! Happy holidays

justsmile

Numbers have had their own symbolic meaning for a long time... I am just wondering if we are too fast to assume that the symbols are not mathematical in nature as oppose to alphabetical.

justsmile

As the thread is suppose to be a discussions about symbols, the symbol on Alex's shirt reminds me a star being stretch out.

As far as stars go, (my keyvoard is acting weird so I am using the "v" for a letter it won't type), could there ve any correlation with the RED STAR that died for MTD and the Christmas star? It would fit in nicely with the Christology theories, as the appearance of the star foretold the virth of the Savior. It also prompted the arrival of the three wise men. (Later the three remain dupes arrived in Roswell.)

I really didn't come in here tonight with any great new ideas, vut I am trying to add to the discussion and not merely vump the thread up. No idea what page this was one vecause I had it vookmark.

jenlev

Nothing much to add, but I wanted to give this thread a bump and approach the magic number 250 ever nearer.

Art has been compared to a pearl that forms inside a soul that has been "irritated" by pain or abuse. I think the same could be said for Max's healing ability, or any similar gift.

Has the "vine" theme been discussed in relation to a possible Jewish ancestry for Liz? I know that Shiri placed a mogen David symbol on the set of Liz's room because she (Shiri) is Jewish, but can it indicate that the character may have this background too? On the Jewish Roswell Lovers thread they certainly believe so. As this is a subject that is very interesting to me, I'd like to read more.

Happy New Year to all!

Fan

I hope you are surviving the snow and ice if your area is affected by the various storm fronts. Be safe out there. Hopefully I will be returning east AFTER that nor’easter passes through this weekend.

I hope you all enjoyed the holidays. As the new year approaches, let me wish everyone a safe, healthy and prosperous 2001. (Yikes! Oh, my!.. 2001 sure seemed so far away..so…well…in the future!.. back when that movie came out).

I can’t wait for the new Roswell episodes to commence. Let’s hope the unfolding storyarc will be Behr-y, Behr-y good..to all of us. I believe one major theme of this season, particularly as the series approaches May sweeps, will be the genetic mysteries. Dragon, cadeuceus, ouroburos. Also the vine, the egg. I think we will have some revelations, or learn more of origins, lineages, and bloodlines (both real and symbolic), and the implications for our podsters and their families. I believe Mrs. Evans may be central to the heart of the mytharc. Grandma Claudia too (I hope they haven’t forgotten her). I also think we may get a little closer to the source of their powers (neurological, ie limbic/temporal & right frontal lobes; spiritual, ie chakras).
watching my TOYHOUSE tape and noticed that Mrs. Evans, while watching the tape on her TV, has a pillow behind her that reflects the lattice or chain-link fence motif I catalogued earlier on this thread(ie, the same as the pattern that appears in the cone of light above Diane -Diana?- Evans in SH). After Max sits beside her on the sofa, in the background between them is a rather large plant; it appears as if they are connected, ie, fruit of the same tree or root or vine.Also in ARCC, the rose vine

Later in TH, the park scene with mom and Max, there is a helical pattern in the background that appears to link them together.

Taken together with other scenes and images, I think this is significant. And what about Puck..uh..Mr Evans? Away from home a lot. Is he also an abductee? Were mom and dad both abductees together once? Long enough to have genetic material taken? And long enough to be placed in a position to ‘find’ 2 special children wandering in the desert? (if that scenario/memory is true).

Is someone significant to the Max and Iz(or their essences) inhabiting their parents’ brain. Of course, i'm not really convinced Max and Iz are related.

Diane has a thing for photos, and evidence of memory suppression; and apparently there are fertility issues unknown to us that involves either/both parent.

Anyway, I hope we will see more of the parents in 2001. The Parkers were sorely missed in ARCC. Mr. Evans is significant, altho perhaps in a different way MrsE (it feels as if there may have been some tinkering with his character this season).
(Probably coincidence, but Hiker!Tictac's backpack in CRAZY looks similar to Camper!Philip's in ITTW, and he is similarly garbed as Voyeur!Tictac at the end of SH).

Both Parkers are significant, each in a different way- MrP as GC’s son . Curious observation. I wonder if there is a reason MrsP has red hair? It is odd that of the abductees in MiTC, Brodie and the two females had bright red hair. Three red-heads in one episode? Hmmmm.

I like all the ideas of the pearl symbolism. I like what you said, SF, about Michael being like a diamond in the rough. I also love all the pearl symbolism. Perhaps Maria is a ‘pearl of great price’, just as surely as Liz is to Max.

Someone commented on the absence of the father(s). The absent father is central to grail and most quest myths.

QFANNY, I agree with your point about the universality of math. I also agree, and believe, it is important not to get focused on one type of interpretation. I think we, on S&S1 and 2, have assumed that the representations may be a combination of graphics (ie, place, illustration, direction), symbols/codes, commands, identifications (ie, genetic strain??) and possibly even music symbols.

AMX, who has been absent too long here, posted about entroptics on the first Signs&Symbols thread. It was JENLEV, I believe, and perhaps others, who also suggested mathematics. SF has wonderful posts about the symbols with beautiful screencaps on this thread. I have some music links for music symbols. There is also a link, early in this thread, for the movie CONTACT with some interesting symbols. I also agree that there may be some 3-dimensionality to the renderings we have yet to see, but some we may have seen already: refer to SF’s superb post on page 8 which will be re-posted later
in January.

Each ‘phrase’ may have specific implications for a specific podster ( in a specific place?). I tend to think that there is a combination of math/music (refer to the Pythagoreans, Fibronacci numbers, etc).

Interestingly, from ‘The Silver Handprint’, in early pages of Whittaker’s diary, there are some practice writings in the margins that appear curiously similar to some of the symbols. Almost as if the message is that the symbols may be attempts at ‘human’ writing by ??Skins. Note that on one page, with the practice writing of her first name, the V of ‘Vanessa’ , in one instance, appears to be the curved horns of Aries. Whatever.

VALENTIFAN, good to ‘see’ you again. At least to my thinking, and I’ve discussed it before, is that one possible interpretation of the Roswell mytharc, and the Max/Liz relationship, can be synthesized from the pagan, mystical and christianized Grail, the HolyBlood/HolyGrail theories, and also the Apochrypha. My belief is that Liz is more analogous to Mary Magdalene (of the Benjamite ‘vine’), and Max of the Davidic/ messianic vine (‘messianic dragon’ symbolism). The references don’t have to be direct. I think these, and other sources, in borrowed parts, only serve as 'templates' (ie, see THE MATRIX).

I have read that Shiri chose the Davidic star for personal reasons/meaning. It is indeed possible that there may be some ‘character’ significance as well. I would love to read Shiri’s thoughts about this. The 6-pointed star, which appears in many cultures and has other meanings, hangs over the pagent and services scenes in ARCC. Perhaps the posters on the Jewish Roswell Lovers may have some thoughts on this website I found some time ago. It also may have some indirect significance to the Roswell mytharc. I’ve hesitated posting this, feeling unable to evaluate the subject or the agenda, scholarship, and ethics (if any) of the individual who put up the site . Check it out for yourself. http://www.nanrubin.com/index.htm

Some Roswell wishes for 2001: I fervently hope the storyarc achieves higher standards of storytelling and entertainment and that the characters, even as they evolve, maintain their integrity. I really look forward to the day - this year would be nice - that there will be a beautifully designed and well researched ‘guide’ to each season of Roswell, just as there are guides for Buffy and Xfiles.

Wouldn’t these be great gifts in 2001 (and, of course, DVDs). In these volumes, the writers, directors, artistic directors, and even the actors, provide the detailed story and/or scripts, production details, as well as reveal some history, background, and sources of inspiration/interpretation for the story and mytharc. Additionally, there are associated books on the art, scifi, mythology (ie, of Xfiles).

I think the Roswell actors are so smart and talented and, IMHO, should have this forum for the fans (the on-line primer is not a substitute).

I hope, in 2001, that we will see Roswell get the advertising it deserves. That these wonderful, positive, hard-working actors deserve. The minimal amount of advertising is shameful, just as it is shameful that Buffy/Angel may get three trailers during Roswell, while Roswell gets none during those programs (and I love BtVS).

But to end positively, lets hope some of the questions/mysteries are answered. If the artistic team has story plan, there should be more ‘layers’, mysteries, and surprises to challenge us and provide us with much to discuss and ponder. I tend toward believing the ‘story-within-a story-within-a-story’ scenario.

A special thanks to the Administrators and Moderators and those who create the screencaps for our use.

See you in 2001 (probably closer to the premier of the next new episode)
with the new Signs&Symbols 3…and Behr…Oh, My!

~~~~~Rosta ~~~~~ ~~~~~

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Thank you SHAPESHIFTER for archiving S&S2. That was very generous of you to do that. Should I ever get a website off the ground, I will put up S&S 1 (text only, I'm afraid)and S&S 2 and later 3 with the screencaps.

And now we approach that 250-iceburg, and soon S&S2 will sink fast and disappear from the Crashdown registry.

Oiceburg!!.....dead ahead!

~~~~~~~~Rosta ~~~~~~~ ~~~~~250~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~250250~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~250250250~~~~
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Oh, my!

Thanks,
Angel Parker

looking at the alien writing a few of teh symbols were remeniscient of ancient hebrew.
looking in one of my books lots of the ancient hebrew plaques,talismans,and symbols have that four connected symbol. u know the one with 4 circles connected with an x.

Micheal giving pearls to maria could have a bad or good meaning :
" Because a pearl is formed through an organic defect of the mollusk, the pearl is considered a symbol of tears and sorrow. Brides are warned against wearing pearls on their wedding day. Adherents claim that it is a symbol of purity (maybe micheal`s love for maria is pure?) and is a symbol of jesus and salvation as mary`s is mother of pearl. gabriel is said to protect all who wear a pearl. The pearl is said to have great healing abilities, protects from evil, and a strong love charm."

um this may sound wierd but as soon as i saw that wierd hexagonal beeper thing i instantly recognised one of the symbols. The swirl is supposed to have come from ancient Greece maybe teh etruscans who knows. It`s supposed to represent silver and an astrological sign i think it`s the moon or a star or something like that. funny thing is that symbol has been on my pencil case (we get bored so i had symbols put all over mine) even before roswell began

I was rewatching Max to the Max this morning and when Isabel was paging through the 'Destiny' book I noticed that on Max's forehead were several symbols. One, in the center, was the V shape, which we now know is the royal seal (from MITC), to the right of the V is what appears to be the number 4. To the left is another symbol that I didn't recognize. Now I wasn't on the Crashdown site back last spring and don't know if you discussed this or not after the episode. If so, what did everyone think?

I cannot tell you how many times I have watched this episode and NEVER noticed these before. Thanks.

melodious 1`s stuff on the swastika was interesting but this also lead onto another train of thought if u r interested in ancient races u should check out the aryans. they obviously set themselves in europe and asia minor and somehow went all the way to india defeated the natives and put themselves up as a new master race. the swastika name is from sanskrit which is also an ancient form of writing which has one of the oldest books ever known of. this race also had a fixation on bloodlines and preserving the blood. a wierd conicidence on talking to my family just then was that the v is a special mark it seems ( i have a "v" birthmark on my chest, i can prove it to anyone who disbelieves that!). i don`t know how but i feel this sounds very similar especially with some of the symbolism.

i was looking at that picture of an overhead shot of micheal surrounded by the alien writing on the ground and i recognised 2 more of the symbols. in the line on top of the of the picture in the middle is teh spiral i was talknig about earlier that was on the on the alien beeper, the fourth from the left looks like a crescent moon which is a classical symbol of the moon. and on the left hand side there is a circle with a dot in the middle which is teh symbol for teh sun or gold from alchemy. this is obviously some type or instruction maual/starchart of either where home is or something. (i don`t know maybe the pictures upside down! lol)

when i saw the x with 4 circles i started thinking about elements. i think tess or micheal is fire because micheal is passionate (read:angry) but tess had that fire stuff she did in wipeout. i bet micheal is an earth. max would b a water because it`s the element of healing and emotions especially sadness. isabel would definitely b an air as she has a psychic type of power mainly with her dreams. the lines connecting them i thought would b the fifth element which some was mentioning earlier, quintessence/love/humanity/life. this is obviously the humans to me as the x is 4 lines that r connected. maybe this infers they all fall for humans and these humans keep them in balance or connect them to life?

Welcome MAX_EVANS Please feel free to just jump in. Your knowledge of Hebrew or the alphabet would be a welcome contribution (altho your contributions are just as welcome without it). The symbols are puzzling. Some are ubiquitous (ie, the spiral you refer to), some are similar or identical to ancient alphabets. Some of the more recent symbols appear to be modifications of very familiar logos or controls on electronic equipment.Another point of view might help with the mystery. We learn something regardless.

Hi Reguru I noted the symbols on 'Max'' forehead, but I can't resolve them well enough. There was discussion, but I don't recall the content. It can certainly be revisited.

Interesting additional information you provided on the pearl Max_Evans. i noted that Mrs. Evans was wearing pearl earrings in TOYHOUSE ...she and few million others
Check out the first 3-4 pages particularly (it's an ongoing discussion)of this thread when you have time. A lot on Etruscans on page 1 and on the beeper symbols pages 1-4 with brilliant screencaps by Redhawk and SF.

I think that there has been intent to refer to the elementals + spirit (see the pentacle) and the correlations with the elements (ie, Venus = copper). The circle with a dot inside is almost ubiquitous as a sun sign.

You may be correct about the X. I'm thinking the X with the 'caps' on the ends may refer to chromasomes (??and telomeres). Could have any number of meanings!

Let me wish you all a safe and Happy New Year! See you back here soon!

~~~~~~~Rosta~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~250~~
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screencaps courtesy of crashdown.com