Fanforum - Science fiction of The Morning After. Roswell This thread is 2 pages long: 1 2 Science fiction of The Morning After. LisaBham Moderator  Registered: May 2000  Posts: 1647 Please post your comments on the science fiction in this episode. LSS Level 4   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 966 06-05-2000 07:29 PM Tonight's episode gives us a trip down memory lane--back to the second episode of the first season. Since (to the best of my knowledge) the "SF of [episode]" threads were non-existent at that time [I think the first one was the SF of SH thread] then let us go back and look at some of the SF in this episode. Since it is impossible to view The Morning After as if we did not know about the later 20 episodes, let's look at some elements that remain perplexing or interesting from our post-Destiny perspective... 1) THE 1959 CORPSE. While the Pilot episode introduced the photos of the 1959 corpse, it is this episode that marks Michael as the one consumed with the alien teens' origins. Of course Michael is less' concerned with the fact that the unknown alien is a killer than he is with the knowledge said alien can provide. Since the alien was here when the craft crashed, Michael assumes that: a) he knows where they come from, b) he knows who they are, c) he knows why they are here, and d) he know how they can get back. From our post-Destiny POV it is surprising how few of these questions have been answered! And whatever information we do have comes not from Nesedo but from the "momogram" in the last minutes of Destiny. Indeed, contrary to Michael's hopes in The Morning After, the alien (Nesedo) offers little concrete information about the teen's past. What little we get (outside the mother's message) comes from Nesedo's reported speech through Tess. Why doesn't Nesedo ultimately provide the information Michael hopes for in this episode? Is it simply that he doesn't want to? Or is it that he can't? Remember that Max later challenges him concerning the working of the orbs. Just how much DOES Nesedo know--and why doesn't reveal what he does? And why was Atherton killed? In The Morning After we once again see the autopsy photos of the unnamed corpse that Valenti originally shows Liz in the Pilot. Later episodes will give us a positive match between the picture of Atherton (on the cover of Aliens Amoung Us) and the corpse in the photos. And River Dog will tell us that Nesedo was Atherton's killer. But Pierce does not mention Atherton in the litany of the dead that he recites to Max in The White Room. And Nesedo never mentions his experiences on the reservation. And we still have no guess as to the importance of this first corpse--or the significance of Atherton for that matter--it is a curious dangling plot element that remains dangling still as we go into the show's second season. 2) ALIEN HUNTERS: Agents Topolsky and Stevens appear for the first time in this episode. By Destiny they are both alledgedly dead. Moreover Maria's warning in The Morning After--that there are "special branches of the government" that hunt aliens is a brillant foreshadowing of the next to last episode of the season -- The White Room. And Michael's words in The Morning After are chillingly premonitions of the season's finale: "We always have to be able to leave, pack a suitcase, go somewhere else. Maybe 10 years from now, maybe a week from now, maybe tomorrow. So my advice? Don't get in too deep, Maximillian. It only makes us weaker." Ironically, it is not only Max but Michael himself who "gets in too deep" by the last episode. 3) MICHAEL'S FLASHES/THE KEY. Do you think we've ever really had explained why Michael received the flashes from the key? Is it like what Max will later experience when he picks up the CD in Liz's room? But exactly how are we to understand what is happening in either case? Well, I have to admit--Roswell Revamped is a long way from the simple SF of the Morning After. Still there is something very sweet and nostalgic about this episode. Well folks--the SF of the Morning After...What do you think? LSS [Edited by LSS on 06-05-2000 at 07:40 PM] brianh Level 3   Registered: Jun 2000  Posts: 104 06-05-2000 08:36 PM Can always count on you for explanations LSS.Sweet and nostalgic - couldn't have said it better myself. max&liz4ever Level 3   Registered: May 2000  Posts: 110 06-05-2000 08:45 PM very nicely put!!! Silverbee Level 2   Registered: Apr 2000  Posts: 70 06-05-2000 09:30 PM It's not really about the SF, but did anyone notice how nice Micheal was to Liz when she showed up at his house? He was asking about if Hank had said anything and he seemed to care. The Micheal we know today (I would have thought) would be mean because he was ashamed. And how Max and Is had a different Dad. And I just have to say that I loved how Kyle reacted when he was spying on Max and Liz (when they were at Micheal's). I think that may be one of my all-time fav. moments. homezomy Level 3   Registered: Apr 2000  Posts: 351 06-05-2000 09:42 PM Just a point on the Atherton perspective ... perhaps the FBI agents knew about Atherton well he did write a book about Aliens so they might have been keeping an eye on him like they were keeping an eye on Hubble, and for some reason maybe it was the FBI who killed Atherton and Nasedo had tried to heal him but couldn't thus explaining the silver handprint on the corpse....just a thought... homezomy BehrAll Level 3   Registered: Apr 2000  Posts: 488 06-05-2000 10:05 PM Hi! Good questions, although I'm not sure there are any explanations, at this point. Still ... 1)The whole Atherton thing is still a mystery, just like Hubble's wife. But as for Nasedo's inability to instruct the podlings about much other than their own abilities, I think it was answered in the cave. He's not "the" or even "a" leader, and caring for them is a "job", not proof of personal investment. If you can believe him, he's basically a servant, capable, resourceful and (somewhat) competent, but out of the loop. About Pierce: if Atherton wasn't an important person by FBI Alien Hunter standards, then Pierce simply might not have been interested ... or maybe he didn't know. Like you see in X-Files, there's usually a guy in the shadows behind the person "in charge"; could there be one here, who wasn't neccesarily fully forthcoming with Pierce? 2) Just a thought about Agents' Topolsky and Pierce: When they were introduced, frankly, I figured they'd be ongoing adversaries of the podlings as the Sheriff became an ally. But they died so quickly, and I'm starting to wonder if they were really as much of a threat to the podlings' mission (except, of course, for their attempts on them individually). So the question becomes, I suppose, who the serious enemies are. And the way the show is going, I'm thinking that it won't be the humans, the way the podlings have assumed up until now, but other aliens. Was that the point of the final scene with the "beepers"? 3) Do you think it's significant that both Michael's and Max' flashes occured in close proximity with people who, shall we say, aroused a certain emotional state? Max was in Liz' room for the first time, thinking rather heatedly about Kyle being there too, probably in a "boyfriend" capacity (as later episodes show, Max does feel jealousy as well as strong positive feelings for Liz), when he flashed off the CD. Maria was standing right in front of Michael, (almost?) touching him encouragingly, mere hours after several "moments" on the road together, during which Michael thawed towards her appreciably. Probably irrelevant, I guess, but after Liz had all those intimacy-related visions in SH ... it's worth asking if there's a connection, right? Oh, and sweet and nostalgic is fine, but I miss the humour most intensely. I mean, I realize that wisecracks might have been out of place in the last few episodes, but it would be nice to see them relax occasionally in the new season. RoswellFreakJess Level 1  Registered: May 2000  Posts: 11 06-05-2000 10:09 PM Yeah i agree Michael was very passive that day, the episode before he was very cold towards Liz, i felt that there wasn't a lot of SF in that episode, a good epi for SF would definately be Into The Woods :) [Edited by RoswellFreakJess on 06-05-2000 at 10:12 PM] LadyJ Level 3   Registered: May 2000  Posts: 118 06-05-2000 10:20 PM BehrAll and LSS, are you assuming that the aliens are willing the flashes without realizing it? That both Max and Michael were thinking about something so intensely that they were able to pick up "residual" energy? As long as we're on the subject, are there any rules about when Michael's powers work and don't work? I thought that his emotional state had something to do with it, but tonight in MA he was a little heavy handed with the window lock for no reason. Later in ItW he is able to heal River Dog's leg pretty easily, but in ID he can't cure his own black eye. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 309 06-05-2000 10:51 PM In the eraser-room scene, Liz wonders how she is going to "become whoever it is that I'm gonna become..." Doesn't this sound like an idea from Destiny? Earlier, she asks Max "...are you really 16 or are you like 52 in a 16-year-old's body?" This looks like foreshadowing the former-lives idea. Maybe also the idea that time might get quirky where aliens are concerned. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 309 06-05-2000 11:15 PM Michael's reference to Maximilian seems especially apt. The 19-century emperor by that name was of the nobility in his homeland, but met an ill fate when he tried to be emperor of Mexico, where you could say he was an alien: He was not accepted, but was soon captured and executed. So this fits with Michael's warning to Max to stay ready to leave and not to get in too deeply. But it also fits with the Destiny idea that former Max was a nobleman in his home country. How much freight one word can carry! BehrAll Level 3   Registered: Apr 2000  Posts: 488 06-05-2000 11:47 PM LadyJ: I just meant that maybe as a side-effect of heightened emotions, the aliens are more susceptible, or maybe what I mean is more receptive, to flashes (whether they're a result of psychic episodes prompted by physical contact with residual energies or not is debatable, but it certainly is a plausible explanation). Didn't Max say something about that himself, when he explained how he knew Kyle had been there? That's the comment that got me speculating when I saw Michael have the vision when Maria moved towards him and encouraged him to try again, but not before (except, of course, the initial vision -- which, come to think of it, he had during another situation fraught with tension. Hmmm.) [Edited by BehrAll on 06-05-2000 at 11:50 PM] Kate6058 Level 5   Registered: Jan 2000  Posts: 1187 06-05-2000 11:48 PM It feels strange to be posting here again after being away from the boards for almost two weeks! But thanks again for the sci-fi analysis, LSS. I don't have much to say except that, after rewatching this episode (one that I don't watch often), it's amazing to see that this entire season actually was planned out very carefully to include almost all the information that we found out in the last six episodes (Maria's use of the phrase "alien hunters" immediately comes to my mind). It's very clear that the information given in Destiny was thrown in at the last minute and drastically changed things from the way they were supposed to end (with a version of Four Square), but I think I have found one positive in Genie Francis' speech (I still insist on referring to their mother that way ) The most important plot change that resulted from the sudden onset of facts at the end of the season is that Tess has been pushed out of the picture (as a love interest for Max) almost definitely. If the season had ended as it did in Four Square, there would have been many seasons ahead for Max to wrestle with his feelings for her. Instead, he confronted them somewhere in between Four Square and Max To The Max (a time frame of about 20 minutes, maybe?) and decided that Liz was the one for him. Even hearing Genie Francis' words did not change his thinking. Something had to give in the scuffle between the WB and the Roswell writers, and I don't think at all that it was Max and Liz's relationship. It was the character of Tess and whatever kind of strength and control over Max she was supposed to possess. She's none of that now, and there is no way for her to regain those qualities or the audience's trust. And I'm very happy about that homezomy Level 3   Registered: Apr 2000  Posts: 351 06-06-2000 12:03 AM Ok I know this is a little off Topic but it's just somethign that been bothering me for some time now, so gusy get out your Pilot Tapes and and rewatch the cheek test scene, Did anyone notice in the Pilot Episode when Liz did the two cheek samples that she used two differant liquids in each test, on hers she used the light green solution bottle and on Max's test she used a dark green solution from a dark brown bottle??? why did she not use the same solution for both tests???? homezomy JanetMG Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 215 06-06-2000 03:40 AM I am pleasantly surprised to find a Sci Fi of thread this morning! I agree that Nacedo's relationship w/Atherton and role in his death are dangling plotlines. (Jumping ahead a couple of episodes, I'm also still curious about what the FBI found in Atherton's house and took from Max's room. Since Nacedo is in the FBI now, some info could plausibly come out but Nacedo might filter it.) Your point about Nacedo's role as an underling is interesting, BehrAll, but it seems to me that even a servant could have answered some of Michael's questions. At the very least, he could have answered where they were from. I agree with you about the flashes--Max said they got them sometimes when they were in heightened emotional states. In White Room, Nacedo said that emotions make them weak. However, emotions seem to trigger or intensify some or all of their powers--Michael's flash in MA coming in a tense situation (sheriff on the way), Max in Liz's room (seeing it for the first time, jealous of Kyle, & a little scared because the diary is missing), much of Sexual Healing, etc. Even in WR, Michael couldn't "focus" until fear of what Nacedo would do to the agent (& time pressure) kicked in. Nemo, you bring up some neat, interesting points. Unlike Kate, however, the cynic (and disappointed fan) in me doesn't see them as evidence that the "entire season actually was planned out very carefully." They simply had to address/acknowledge the apparent inconsistency between the timing of the crash & the age of the Podsters early on. The Liz line was part of a great scene exploring the positives and negatives of being behind a tree v. in the limelight, but I don't really believe it had any sci fi/Destiny meaning at the time (even though I'd like to believe that). Maximillian has some interesting connotations, but what about Maxwell the other nickname used by Michael? [I'm not saying that Nemo's points aren't valid or "there"--they are. While its possible, I just doubt that the writers/producers knew they were there at the time. I'm not sure why I feel the opposite about Buffy--much of what strikes me as careful construction involves double (or triple) entendres. I guess it's because there are a few scenes or lines that have no other good explanation until later episodes.] Kate, I love your Tess pushed out of the picture theory--I hope you're right! Homezony, the solution thing bugged me too. WR made it worse by saying that only their blood was non-human. I didn't see blood on the pencil and always assumed she looked at cheek scrapings and/or saliva. Miss Roswell Level 3   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 265 06-06-2000 04:33 AM I caught Liz using 2 different colors when checking their saliva too. I don't know what was up with that. I hope you guys are right about that Tess the Mess thing. I loved MA's ep. Now, I remember why I fell in love with the show in the first place. LSS Level 4   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 966 06-06-2000 06:12 AM quote: Originally posted by BehrAll LadyJ: I just meant that maybe as a side-effect of heightened emotions, the aliens are more susceptible, or maybe what I mean is more receptive, to flashes (whether they're a result of psychic episodes prompted by physical contact with residual energies or not is debatable, but it certainly is a plausible explanation). Didn't Max say something about that himself, when he explained how he knew Kyle had been there? That's the comment that got me speculating when I saw Michael have the vision when Maria moved towards him and encouraged him to try again, but not before (except, of course, the initial vision -- which, come to think of it, he had during another situation fraught with tension. Hmmm.) [Edited by BehrAll on 06-05-2000 at 11:50 PM] BehrAll--the idea of residual energies is the best explanation that I think we have for these flashes. They are substantially differernt from those experienced during the later kissing scenes or the "implanted visions" that are Tess originated. As for Michael's irratic powers--Tess in Destiny will explain that Michael has to learn simply to focus the energy that he has at his disposal. What we are not told, of course, is why Michael has trouble doing this while Max and Izzy apparently do not. It is tempting to speculate on Michael's emotional status due to Hank's nuturing (or lack thereof)--but that has never really been clearly stated. Also it is very nice (especially for Candygirls) to think that Maria's proximity at Atherton's house gave Michael a "balance" he normally had difficulty attaining--and thus enabled him to focus his powers. If so--then it is one more reason to argue that humans are helpers not hinderers when it comes to our favorite alien teens!!! LSS Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 309 06-06-2000 07:51 AM JanetMG, did you get to see stuff I added recently to the previous SF thread (Destiny), or did it slide away too quickly? (I was very late getting there, and the discussion had moved on.) Here's the link: http://www.fanforum.com/forum/upload/showthread.php?threadid=23216&pagenumber=5 [ Edited by Nemo on 06-06-2000 at 08:30 AM] LSS Level 4   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 966 06-06-2000 08:44 AM quote: Originally posted by Nemo In the eraser-room scene, Liz wonders how she is going to "become whoever it is that I'm gonna become..." Doesn't this sound like an idea from Destiny? Earlier, she asks Max "...are you really 16 or are you like 52 in a 16-year-old's body?" This looks like foreshadowing the former-lives idea. Maybe also the idea that time might get quirky where aliens are concerned. Nemo--You are correct of course. The question I always wonder is if this is intentional or not. That is, is someone really going back and making these connections or are they made on a subconscious level and simply the marks of good story telling? For example--in my own writing (non-fiction) I make connections that I later look back and credit to a kind of "feel" for what "works". I wonder if storytellers of the fiction kind do the same thing. Regardless of whether it is intentional or not, however, these connections are threre (as you noted). And I am surprised to see how many there are--many of which can only be seen from a post-Destiny vantage point. LSS JanetMG Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 215 06-07-2000 03:57 AM Thanks for the link, Nemo--my old bookmarks aren't working on the new board. I had missed your posts on the Destiny thread (recent promotion + sailing weather = far less time on the board/online). You bring up a lot of interesting details on the Destiny thread. I guess I'm willing to believe that some of them were intentionally inserted, particularly the Max-as-leader symbols because I do think they planned ahead for him to be some of kind of leader. I still think, however, that more of it comes from sharp observation by you, GraceKel, Kate & others and that hindsight reveals interpretations or symbols that noone involved with the show intended to insert when it was filmed. [Actually, anyone out there know who does the background stuff? the set designers? the directors? This kind of thing (other than calling Max, Maximillan) isn't part of the shooting script, so I doubt its the writers.] If the Roswell folks were planning ahead, they were too subtle. LSS Level 4   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 966 06-07-2000 06:39 AM JanetMG and Nemo: You know, Tepp and I got into this once when we talked about Literary Criticism and diachronic/synchronic ways of reading texts. Synchronic approaches look at texts as worlds unto themselves regardless of authorial intention, whereas diachronic apporaches take into account the text's authors. The connections noted by Nemo, et. al. exist in the world of the text/screen regardless of whether or not they were intentionally placed there. In this sense they impact us the viewers--and it is an impact quite apart from anything that may have been intended. On the other hand, I have always been interested in looking at authorial intent--that is, what did they intend for us to see? It is really simply a matter of what level of the text you prefer--that of the story itself, or looking behind it. LSS JanetMG Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 215 06-07-2000 10:21 AM quote: Originally posted by LSS It is really simply a matter of what level of the text you prefer--that of the story itself, or looking behind it. LSS Hi LSS, I remember skimming that discussion, but can't remember where or when. I think it was during a time I had a hard time accessing the board. You & Tepp may have discussed this, so I apologize if my thoughts are duplicative (and even if they aren't duplicative, I'm pretty sure I'm making something explicit that already is obvious to you). I think authorial intent matters more when you're discussing an on-going story, rather than a "finished" story. For purposes of enjoying The Morning After as a stand alone episode, I agree that the producers' intent may only be relevant to those (like me) who prefer to look behind the story. Whether the production folks intentionally inserted the details Nemo & others have pointed out (or at least recognized their potential after the fact), however, is very important when using those details to speculate about Season 2 or to try to delineate (or rationalize) the rather vague sci fi pronouncements we got at the end of this season. bluecornmoon Level 1  Registered: May 2000  Posts: 36 06-07-2000 06:51 PM Regarding Atherton, please watch carefully 285 South next Monday, 6/12! When the kids enter the geodesic dome, the camara pans around the room and it starts with the skylight! It bears the same Chrysler logo that we see at the end of Destiny in the hands of the bad aliens. This answers a couple of questions: 1. Nasedo killed him because he was a threat to the squad or himself; and 2. Never underestimate the writers. They have been giving us clues from the beginning. Within 2 minutes of the Pilot starting, you hear Beavis and Buthead (sp?) saying "We have to get rid of her!", continuing with the almost subliminal messages and signs all around (read the thread on things we have been missing), even Grandma Claudia's pendant bearing the orbs' logo (I still think she is the clue to Liz' specialness! and the clues are in the Lost Treasures book!). I wish the last eps wouldn't have been so hurried but they all follow the pattern: The answers will be provided! I have the greatest trust on Jason Katims and the intelligence of his writers! shapeshifter Level 3   Registered: May 2000  Posts: 156 06-07-2000 10:28 PM quote: Originally posted by LSS Synchronic approaches look at texts as worlds unto themselves regardless of authorial intention, whereas diachronic apporaches take into account the text's authors. and: quote: Originally posted by JanetMG ...Whether the production folks intentionally inserted the details Nemo & others have pointed out (or at least recognized their potential after the fact), however, is very important when using those details to speculate about Season 2 or to try to delineate (or rationalize) the rather vague sci fi pronouncements we got at the end of this season. Two things come to mind here: 1)It seems that the "synchronic approach" is inherent to discussion of science fiction which is, by definition, an alternate reality. 2)The writers are going to have to build off of the past elements, even if just to explain them away, and ultimately the preponderance of evidence of a certain "truth" (such as the importance of Liz) is going to be an awful lot of trouble to remove. JanetMG Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 215 06-08-2000 03:20 AM bluecornmoon, Are you serious about Grandma Claudia having a pendant with the symbol from the orb? Do you have any idea where a screencap of it is or what scene in LN it appears? For some unknown reason, that would help me a lot by restoring some level of faith in the writers/producers. LSS Level 4   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 966 06-08-2000 06:17 AM bluecornmoon: Are you sure you are not related to Nemo? You two would have a blast talking "Roswell" background details. I will have to go back and look at those scenes to which you referred. Like JanetMG, I am curious about what you said concerning the orb symbol. One of the dangling plot elements that we have from season one is Grandma Claudia's identification as an archaeologist. There was absolutely no reason to tell us that or to have us see her work with indigenous peoples. I know several fanfic writers picked up on this and ran with it. If she does indeed have a pendant with that orb sign then perhaps these writers are on to something. BTW--JanetMG--I agree with you on the issue of the importance of authorial intent. Whereas Tepp is more into synchronic analysis -- I am into diachronic. For example I think that it is extremely important that Mary Shelley had a miscarriage and had nightmares about bringing her baby back to life BEFORE she wrote Frankenstein. I really like to explore the relationship between the final product and the author's reasons for writing it. So--if those items are there it is important to me because--like you--I want to ferret out where they are taking the show. LSS GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 603 06-08-2000 10:27 AM Bluecornmoon excellent post! I too have caught many of these things after I finally took my eyes off Max and Liz long enough to pay attention to smaller but SIGNIFICANT details---I missed the skylight in the dome so I will have to go back and check it out. I do agree that they have been giving suttle clues all along but we get lost in the romance sometimes(well I know I do). I do have a question about GC necklace? Am I mistaken or did Mr Hubble also have the same symbol on this neck thing he was wearing in UFO CONVENTION center? I could be wrong but it looked like the same symbol! Secondly I rewatched Leaving Normal again and noticed all that ortho noticing Liz's specialness, and Grandma making sure that Liz was hooking up with her soulmate that she would only know if it were complicated. And I noticed when GC took a turn for the worse in INTENSIVE CARE and Liz and parents come running-you have to slomo of course but there is this guy who looks very SUSPICIOUS walking away from INTENSIVE CARE and looking deliberately at LIZ'S father. I wonder if he had something to do with GRANDMA taking a turn for the worse? I definitely heard they had the whole story mapped out for the season so I believe they were giving clues all along. Or maybe it is just the Liz in me "YOU'VE GOTTA HAVE A PLAN!" This thread is supposed to be about MORNING AFTER and the only big lines I got out of it was when Liz said "HOW CAN I BECOME WHATEVER IT IS I AM SUPPOSE TO BECOME WHEN EVERYONE IS LOOKING" and I think many are looking people we haven't always noticed. t LSS Level 4   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 966 06-08-2000 02:36 PM Nemo--GraceKel--and now Bluecornmoon: You folk are amazing!!! I am making a list of your observations and am going to try to check them outthis week-end (I know I owe you a couple GraceKel and MEP -- I have not forgotten--just haven't had the chance to go back). What faithful/devoted Roswellians you all are! LSS Elliott Level 4   Registered: Jan 2000  Posts: 899 06-08-2000 03:10 PM Bluecornmoon: Can you expand on your observations in a little more detail? You were offhand about them and they really deserve more discussion. I'm intrigued by this, and like other posters here yesterday and today, this makes me feel that we really were in the secure hands of excellent storytellers, and that's why we all fell so hard for ROSWELL. Of course these shows were early in the season. Are all old bets now off because of the new edict about sci-fi 'Destiny'? GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 603 06-08-2000 07:50 PM Bluecornmoon we are waiting for you to return please reply. bumping this. LSS Level 4   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 966 06-08-2000 09:52 PM Okay folk--I need a bit of help here. I had 15 minutes to spare so I slapped in my "Leaving Normal" tape to catch a glimpse of Grandma Claudia's necklace. Now I do not have a magnifying glass, but that did not look to me like the whirlwind symbol we see later on the pendant and the orbs. Can I get a second opinion for someone else here? I mean--I would really like it to be the symbol becuase as Elliot said, that would indicate an intentionality that in itself would be impressive. But I don't see it--at least in Grandma's necklace. Second opinion out there--please? LSS Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 309 06-08-2000 10:08 PM JanetMG, you asked what Maxwell might refer to. Well, here are some possibilities. 1. Nothing; Michael is just being playful. 2. It's hard not to be reminded of Secret Agent Maxwell Smart. (Especially with Ms. Topolsky's call to HQ being answered "CONTROL.") But would that help the story? 3. The physicist James Clerk Maxwell. The two topics that bear his name most strongly are heat and electromagnetic radiation. Maybe it refers to that radiant-heating power the aliens have, which Nasedo has used to kill? This name first occurs in Monsters, just after a mention of the 1959 corpse. Soon after that is the suspicious business in the hospital, where the camera's focusing on the sign RADIOLOGY vs. NEUROLOGY suggests to me that such a radiant-energy attack was made against Grandma Claudia. I revised my remarks on the other thread (see the link above) to try to be clearer about this. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 309 06-08-2000 10:18 PM LSS: I don't see or claim to see the whirlwind symbol, only the distinctive shape of the orb. The central item on the necklace has that same "long football" shape (oriented vertically). I don't say this is definitive. But it sets one thinking: could GC have had something to do with the aliens? Why else would Nasedo or some other alien be hunting her? As I think is suggested by those background comments about hunters, serial killer homing in on a retirement community "so it's got something for Grandma" etc. LSS Level 4   Registered: Feb 2000  Posts: 966 06-09-2000 07:04 AM Nemo: Sorry I must have misunderstood you--the whirlwind symbol would have been fantastic though!!! I'm not sure I think simply the oval shape is by itself significant--but the other elements you mention are intriguing. And it is simply too much of a coincidence that we have Claudia as an archaeologist. Twice later we see this same theme with Dogboy Doug and with the artifacts that Harding amasses in his house. But I simply don't know where they are going with it (Hey--they might not even know!!) Now I will look for that elusive Chrysler symbol people mentioned... BTW Nemo--you need to check out bluecornmoon--you both share a love of detail! LSS GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 603 06-09-2000 06:55 PM Bluecornmoon is right there is that same symbol on the top of the geo-dome in 285S. What it actually means I don't know. LSS, no I did not see whirlwind galaxy symbol on GC necklace either but Nemo, it does look very much the shape of the orb-and it does look very old and.....now I gotta go back and look at UFO CONVENTION ep again for Hubbles neck thing---I thought it might have been similar to grandma's but might be wrong. Another thing I did notice in UFO CONV ep is right b4 JON FRAKES comes over to Max he is adjusting a clock and right above or below it says VENUS-------hmmmmm --now what does this mean---the time is not right for VENUS or it is just about time for VENUS or.....I don't know....maybe someone with a greater mind then mine can come up with it. If it means anything. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 309 06-09-2000 07:26 PM GraceKel, there have been slowly growing references linking Venus, the V star formation, and clocks or the idea of something (or someone) whose time has come. I just noticed that in Leaving Normal already there was a wall clock in the cafe with a border of lights around it resembling a star formation, with a V at the bottom. As soon as I saw it, Liz set down some dinners and the name of the first one began with Venus. So your find (which I hadn't noticed) fits neatly into this series. Thank you. I seem to remember that in later episodes the cafe wall clock with the lights gets more prominent somehow, and the camera more often crops it to show only the bottom V part. GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 603 06-10-2000 12:16 PM Nemo thanks for the clue on the clock in the cafe,I will go back and check that out-I had not noticed the clock in the Crashdown but I have noticed several references to time and Venus. GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 603 06-11-2000 03:38 PM Nemo I must be stupid but I cannot find the clock!ha! Where in the cafe is it? Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 309 06-11-2000 05:59 PM GraceKel, at the beginning, when Maria explains to Liz why the cafe is so busy -- it's the orthodontists' convention -- they are walking fast, the camera follows them, and on the wall behind them is the clock with the lights around it. That time you see it squarely. (Soon, as Liz talks to Max, you see it again, more from the side, and the pattern of lights looks very different because they are not flat on the wall, they are on stalks or something.) Don't look for just a single V, there's a whole ring of lights. Parts of it are V-shaped. (The clock in the center is very small.) At first you might not connect it with the V we see in later episodes. (Although it does plant the suggestion about time being written in the stars.) Somewhere in the last six episodes it looks more convincing. But once you watch for it you can see it already this early. [Edited by Nemo on 06-11-2000 at 06:06 PM] Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 309 06-11-2000 11:16 PM Here are a few more details in early episodes that finally registered with me. Apparent references to heat/fire/radiation, possible hints that Grandma Claudia's relapse may not have been the unaided work of time, and military imagery around Michael, etc. Note: We have puzzled over Shiela Hubble as a handprint victim that didn't fit the pattern. But if we count GC among the victims and Liz as a likely intended victim, then there's an additional pattern: Liz, her grandmother, and someone who resembled her. 101 Morning After At Ms. Topolsky's first appearance, some kid remarks "she's on fire." (posted by I Love Roswell, on another thread.) She gets the wrong number for the sum of angles of a triangle: 360 degrees. Liz corrects her: 180 degrees. [Compare: in the White Room, Pierce says one handprint victim's burn reached 180 degrees.] Michael's last line in the prior scene is "My dad's cooking." One of Maria's lines to Liz calls her Madonna in jest, but the next few words mention God, masses, and serving. 103 Leaving Normal Max at the hospital (first time): Right next to his head (which is injured but healing, like Grandma's) is an out-of-focus ceiling sign glowing orange. Soon after, Nancy Parker, telling a story, makes an upraised-hand gesture. About this time trouble strikes GC, and as everyone rushes to her room, someone is leaving. 104 Missing (next after Grandma Claudia's death) As Liz walks home through the darkened streets feeling watched (hunted?), the many pedestrian "don't walk" signs look like upraised hands glowing fiery orange. While Liz talks to Max at the museum, he puts away a grotesquely large hand. Later, Max shakes loose the contents of a vending machine, using a raised hand but without visible force. Now we have seen all three aliens heating things or transferring energy to the inside of something closed. "Inspector Maria," on the case of the missing journal, speaks of reconstructing a crime. Michael, at the end, suggests window locks "for when your criminals happen to be human." A sign on Michael's wall in the beginning shows something like a lightning bolt zapping from one person to another. In Kyle's house is a banner for "Power Sports Network." In Liz's house is a picture with wavy lines suggestive of a radiation pattern. At the cafe, Max quotes (from Atherton's book) something about the brain. In the art classroom: A small soldier-like figure on the windowshade string, looking like an assault trooper. The broken-limbed human model, looking like a battle victim. A line in the music says "X-ray, search and destroy." (Radiation, again!) quote: Inspector Maria (in Missing): I mean, this is Roswell. You can't just ignore things like this. [Edited by Nemo on 06-12-2000 at 07:15 AM] GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-12-2000 08:15 PM Nemo thanks for the heads up on the clock thing again I will have to go back and look for it again. You came up with some great new clues and I must say the one about Michael saying "My dad's cooking----fits in with my theory about Michael being related to Mr Harding and Tess. In Leaving NOrmal I saw the guy leaving looking at Liz's father rather suspiciously as they came running to intensive care unit. Another thing I picked up on was when Nancy says "thankyou so glad you could come" like he was an outsider Dr to the hospital not someone on staff there! Dr Sanchez was his name----hmmmmm! Why did they bring in an outside doctor? At least that is what I thought they were trying to say unless someone has a better explanation. Also in 285S I noticed the signs in Kyles room again---camera pans to WARNING then a second later to sign that says DON'T MISS THIS---a second or two later sign says "IN YOUR FACE" then back to "DON'T MISS THIS" again---but I could not figure out what we were suppose to notice----anyone else? NEMO? Question-in 285S when they go into the DOME and camera pans up and we see that symbol-Max looks back at Liz and Isabel--Liz seems hesitant to come in---Isabel then looks over at Michael and he sort of laughs---why? I did not get that----anybody else get it? Nemo-You also think there is some significance to Mrs Hubble looking very much like Liz----could Mrs Hubble have been killed but SOMEONE managed to save the baby girl (LIZ) somehow? I don't know. GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-13-2000 12:16 PM Just bumping to first page again-this thread has so many interesting things on it. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 330 06-14-2000 06:53 AM GraceKel, about the signs in Kyle's room, I imagine they connect with what Kyle is thinking at that moment: Liz has gone off with Max; that bugs Kyle (it's "in his face"), Dad warns him to have nothing to do with Max, but Kyle wants to know what's going on, it looks like something important is happening and Kyle doesn't want to miss it. That's my guess. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 330 06-14-2000 07:01 AM The scene with Dr. Sanchez makes clear that he was already known and trusted by the Parker family. It makes him a less likely suspect. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 330 06-14-2000 07:23 AM About Shiela Hubble: This is just a guess, but it could account for some things. I think Tepp and the others are right that Tess is not the original fourth podster AlienMom was talking about; Tess is a later substitute engineered by Nasedo or someone like him. (I suspect she doesn't know that yet, just as she seemed not to know that N. was killing people until Max told her.) I think that original fourth one, now lost, was supposed to be much like Liz, and that's why Max seems to recognize her on first sight. I suspect N. killed Shiela Hubble in order to steal genetic material, and he selected her because of the resemblance to Liz, the result he's trying to imitate. I imagine it is to his surprise that Tess's appearance turns out so opposite to Liz. It looks like much of what N. does (like his botched plan to bait Pierce) turns out contrary to his intent. [He meddles with things that are more complicated than his understanding?] Maybe it is fitting that Nature does not cooperate with his plans: the trickster gets tricked. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 330 06-14-2000 07:38 AM If N. got human genetic material by killing and stealing, how did AlienMom's people get theirs? Some less murderous method, I presume. Maybe they asked someone. Maybe Grandma Claudia? Liz kept emphasizing "She was so full of life." Hmmm. If so, I am guessing that meeting with Claudia took place on some previous alien visit to Earth. So it might be no accident that Claudia saw the crash; she might have been watching for the ship's arrival. I imagine the crash altered everyone's plans. Claudia now pursues a profession that lets her search the Southwest. Hmmm. [Edited by Nemo on 06-14-2000 at 07:46 AM] dairyland Level 1  Registered: Mar 2000  Posts: 3 06-14-2000 08:40 AM Hey everyone, I've only recently discovered the sci-fi threads and so I hope that I'm not bringing up a topic that has been thoroughly discussed before. Also, this is more "Destiny" related, but since the discussion here has been about Liz and her potential "otherness", I thought I would bring it up. First of all, a question: how do holograms work? Was mom able to see the kids when she spoke to them or is it simply a recording and she was guessing that all four of them were standing in front of her? If she could somehow see them (or, really, it would still work even if she couldn't see them) she would have seen Max, Isabel, Michael, Tess... and Liz. She doesn't specifically state names or point them out as she refers to them (I don't think. Need to go back and watch again). This leaves open the possibility that she was referring to Liz when she mentioned Max's "young bride" (that statement still makes me gag). I am a firm believer that there is more to Liz than meets the eye. I find the sudden changes in her body (i.e. the fever she developed in SH) and the flashes she received while kissing Max as proof of this. What if the flashes of the crash were not something she pulled from Max's subconscious or from Nasedo's or anyone else's? What if they were from her own? Perhaps she and Max just needed to finally give in to their feelings for one another without any fear or reserve before this phenomenon could kick in. I know, I know. Where does Tess fit into the equation then? I'm still working on that. Miranda GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-14-2000 02:20 PM Hi Nemo--my point about Dr Sanchez was not to enlist him as SUSPECT---I just thought it odd that they brought in an outside doctor---could there be something special about GRANDMA CLAUDIA that they don't want regular hosp staff to see? I know it is just a theory-just throwing it out there. I did not mean Dr Sanchez killed Grandma---I think the guy who took a long stare at Liz's father did. You can see him leaving INTENSIVE CARE as they are running toward it. I know what you are saying about GRANDMA being SO FULL OF LIFE--mentioned quite a bit and she says to Liz at the end "you remind me of myself so EXCITED ABOUT LIFE!" Almost saying FULL OF LIFE! I think there is definitely a connection---ha! And if there isn't well there should be! Nemo I put this on another thread 285S about what you said about "my dad's cooking" and it made me think of the fact that in ID at the end Michael says to Isabel, "there's a lot you don't know about me, I can cook!" And he is now cooking at the CRASHDOWN. Could this mean that he could have this ability to COOK(180 degrees COOKING I MEAN)? You could be right about Kyle and Sheriff's conversation and the meaning of the signs--I could not find anything significant either so you are probably right. Dairyland welcome to a SCIFI thread, yes we all think that Liz has some special importance in the ALIEN MYTHOLOGY---I myself tend to believe that Max and Isabel were meant to hook up with humans-----and that Mr Harding brought Michael and Tess to stop this from happening----somehow I think Michael got lost and (lucky for him) if you notice Michael always says "MY VISIONQUEST" or "NO YOU're NOT LEAVING ME AGAIN", "I AM CONNECTED TO THIS THING AND ITS NOT LETTING ME WAIT" He always says I not WE why? He has said time and again "Nasedo is my family and I am going to find him"---maybe truer words were never spoken----it is just a theory but its as good as any others I have seen so right now I am sticking with it til we find out something different. I think it would be wonderful for Michael to have been born of the dark side but is changed by his connection to Max, Isabel, and the humans(especially Maria). GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-15-2000 10:13 AM Bumping for a reply to keep on first page. dairyland Level 1  Registered: Mar 2000  Posts: 3 06-15-2000 10:57 AM gracekel: I also think Nasedo and Tess are of the "evil" nature. The fact that the version of them breaking out of the pods differs so drastically from the earlier episodes to those when Tess is on the scene leads me to believe that they are more implanted images. Tess and Nasedo are there simply to make sure that the "real" destiny is not fulfilled. I am intrigued with your theories about Michael (i.e. that he is also of the evil race). What you have said certainly makes sense. My only question then is what happened to Isabel's true fiance and Max's second-in-command? Any thoughts? Miranda GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-15-2000 02:17 PM Dairyland I am not settled on that part of the theory yet but I will throw out a couple of ideas I have been floating around in my head. First in the WR episode Isabel tells Tess that Max has told her Pierce wants to know how the orbs work and she says she doesn't know how they work but she produces some voodoo anyway. But you must admit that she now knows that the podsters don't know how they work either---which leaves the door open for her to make them work in a way that she wants to-----and makes up that destiny bologna on her own which fits with the whole reason she needed pics of them as kids for the faked visions and even her fake book. This could mean they are meant to hook up with humans. The other theory is maybe that whole orb thing with the mother is true but Max's bride and his second in command were tampered with and killed or maybe alien friendly thought they were endangered so they were moved--or maybe they did not come the pod root they came down through generations because they knew someone might try to mess with them if they came together in a neat little package that way. And this could link up SH or Grandma Claudia and then to Liz and as for Isabel's well I don't really know but wouldn't it be a complete tragedy if it were suppose to be PIERCE who is completely human like Liz(did you see the strange look he gave Isabel when they were stopped for speeding) but because of the evil alien messing and playing around with this destiny they managed to destroy Isabel's betrothed. I know it is probably getting too far out there--my mind just rambles on.....it is just a theory--need to know more b4 we can really find out. dairyland Level 1  Registered: Mar 2000  Posts: 3 06-15-2000 02:51 PM GraceKel: Ooohhhh... I forgot about the pictures. She would need photos of them for the book and to plant visions in their minds. Okay, as for the Isabel's fiance part, let me see if I understood what you were saying (and please let me know if I've screwed this up). You propose that Pierce may have been Max's friend and Isabel's destiny? But due to circumstances we are not aware of, things got off course and he ended up being their enemy instead? He is certainly obsessed enough with them and there is a fine line between love and hate. He's perhaps a little old, but it is an interesting theory. As far as throwing out ideas that are too wild - nah. I love to play devil's advocate and toss out crazy theories; and with sci-fi, it takes a lot for it to be too crazy. Brainstorming is the best way to find the right path, even though our ideas don't count for much. We're probably all way off base from what the writer's are planning. Either that or they are monitoring the boards hoping to pick up on some good plot ideas from us. Wouldn't that be a hoot? Miranda GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-15-2000 07:55 PM Well Dairyland maybe I was so used to seeing Pierce play a good guy in RELATIVITY and I thought he kind of matched up well with ISABEL that my mind starting wandering but I DID THINK THAT HE GAVE ISABEL A VERY STRANGE LOOK IN THE JEEP. Okay now go with me on this, now right now they have shown Pierce to be pretty darn evil to our podsters but what if it is a matter of perspective---maybe the only aliens he was used to dealing with in the past is the NASEDO(MR FRY MAN)who kill humans like it was nothing. As a human you would come to believe that these aliens are a real threat to the earth---now comes along our innocent podsters-half human but all he can imagine is the same type of alien he has been dealing with in the past. Do you see what I am getting at? It would be a matter of perspective. Well I guess he is dead now so its too late but it would be a tragedy if he was originally planned to hook up with Isabel---Is he that much older? I hadn't really noticed ha! But you could be right! Here is another thought--suppose Nasedo shapeshifted into Max and kidnapped Liz and lead Max into the FBI trap on purpose just so he could gain their trust by rescuing him. Because quite frankly it was a pretty dumb plan to set a trap for Pierce--and our pod squad has had nothing but trouble since Tess and Mr Harding/Nasedo have been around (NOT EXACTLY WHAT I WOULD CALL A SAFETY NET). My one last thought that has bothered me and I hope they address it right away---I hope Max didn't buy this hook line and sinker cuz I don't see why he is trusting someone that kidnapped Liz----this doesn't make sense to me at all---so my brain is telling me that Max is not duped and that he will question everything right away when we return next season. That is not just my hope because I love Liz and Max together but it is the only thing that would make sense to me---would you suddenly trust someone who kidnapped the person you were in love with? Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 330 06-15-2000 09:21 PM GraceKel, you asked whether Michael has the power to radiate bursts of heat with his hands. Well, he melted shut the latch on Kyle's locker, remember? And recently Max did something similar to Kyle's closet door. And long ago we saw Isabel reheating coffee and tacos. So apparently all three of them can do that. GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-15-2000 09:36 PM Well Nemo you were the one who brought up the dialogue from the Morning After about "my dad's cooking" weren't you---so I guess I just ran with it cuz of my theory about Michael/Tess/Nasedo connection. But you are right they do all seem to have those heating up powers, very good point! rosfan Level 3   Registered: Jan 2000  Posts: 110 06-16-2000 12:51 AM I wrote this for the thread about Liz's importance to the alien mythology but thought I would copy and post it here in case anyone wants to comment on it. Here is part of what I wrote: Over the last few days, I have re-watched a few of the episodes and I found some things I think might be important. I will readily admit that I was looking for clues so I might be stretching things a little (seeing meaning in things that don't have a "mythology" meaning). I will also admit that I am already of the opinion that Liz is important to the mythology. I believe that IF alien mom's message was true (not tampered with by Tess) then perhaps in their previous alien life, Max was the leader of his race of aliens and maybe Liz was a member of the "evil"/opposing alien group. In this other life, Michael (as the no.2 guy behind Max) could have found out about their forbidden love affair and tried to get rid of Liz only to realize later that Liz was a good "person". Tess, as Max's intended could also have decided to get rid of the competition. I believe GraceKel (found out later it wasn't GraceKel's idea but I don't know whose it was) first mentioned this idea and how wonderfully it would play into the whole Romeo and Juliet thing that this show portrays. I am not saying that Liz Parker is an alien, maybe just that in another lifetime her soul was in an alien's body. If someone can better explain this theory then go for it! Anyway, I will list what I noticed actually occurred and then put my interpretation of it in (). The Morning After -When discussing Topolsky's arrival with Liz, Maria says "No one is who they say they are". (Hmmm, does this mean that Nasedo and Tess might not be who they say they are?) -Topolsky (FBI) has Michael's records but not Max's or Isabel's, at least according to what they show us on camera. (Why does the FBI suspect Michael but not Isabel or Max? Michael has not done anything to tip the FBI off that he might be an alien. Could someone, Nasedo, be working with the government and have tipped them off that Michael is an alien too?) -When Max is talking with Michael outside the Crashdown and Liz is inside trying to convince Maria to cover for her, Liz comes out and we see her in the background. Both Max and Michael then turn to look at her and we see Liz's image in between Max and Michael's image. (Showing that Liz is coming between Max and Michael. See my comments below for a visually similar scene in the Balance.) -Max says to Michael "Don't do anything stupid". (Again, Max does not trust Michael to make smart/good decisions. Could this distrust have to do with something Michael did to Liz in their previous lives?) -When Max asks Liz to lunch while he walks her back to the Crashdown, there is a song by the Cardigans playing in the background. The lyrics are (I think): "this feeling inside me is growing and I KNEW someday that YOU WOULD COME". (Implying that maybe Liz knew even before she met Max that he would be coming for her?) -Michael is the only one to get visions from the key. (Why? Maybe because like GraceKel thinks, Michael is somehow different than Isabel and Max.) -Michael says to Max: "Don't get in too deep Maximillian. It only makes us weaker". (Michael sees Max's relationship with Liz as making Max weaker. Another instance where we see Michael pitting himself against Liz.) Any thoughts? GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-17-2000 08:10 PM Rosfan I was having trouble following your theory--are you saying that Liz was of the opposing side on another planet--the side that Michael is on? I was having trouble following it? Nemo--I am responding to something you put on another thread maybe Mythology Thread about Grandma Claudia witnessing the crash because she might have been waiting for the ship---prearranged agreement from a past encounter of human genetic material is that right? It sounds pretty good to me! Dairyland-getting back to that way out there theory about AGENT PIERCE--one more thing that does fit with this theory. Liz found one orb and PIERCE had the other. Coincidence? hmmmm? Okay I found something in the Toyhouse episode and I would like others to have a look at it cuz I know it could be wrong but looking for another set of eyes to look at this. In the TOYHOUSE ep when Human MOM comes into Isabel's bedroom to talk to her asking her what she remembers from the past b4 Daddy and I came for you (beside the mother is a poster with a pic of a guy---who I think looks very much like PIERCE!) Am I crazy, has my brain been fried or what ha! The camera focuses on this shot for quite awhile but of course slo-mo helps quite a bit if you have it. Will someone have a look and see what they think? Thanks! GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-18-2000 10:23 AM Bumping to first page so it doesn't get lost. Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 330 06-18-2000 12:12 PM GraceKel, I will watch for that picture next time I see Toy House. There's another one that puzzles me: in Leaving Normal, between Liz and Grandma talking about soulmates, there is a picture that seems to resemble some of the images we have seen in flashes between Max and Liz. Is there some significance to that? It seems to come into view too often to have no purpose. GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-18-2000 02:26 PM Nemo are you talking about the pic that if you were entering Liz's bedroom it would be to your right on the wall---the one with the LONG DARK HAIRED WOMAN and....if so I have also commented on this pic being prominent when Mom was having the sex talk with Liz in SH. Or is it another---there is another pic in her room with a WINDMILL in it and I noticed that in TOYHOUSE Max has the same WINDMILL type structure behind his head when talking to Isabel about putting the brakes on the Liz thing---is this significant-not sure maybe or maybe not! Also in the Claudia's hospital room there is a pic of what appears to be a long dark haired Indian woman-significance if any-not sure! Are any of these the ones you were talking about? Or is it another? Nemo Level 3   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 330 06-18-2000 04:26 PM I think it's none of those; it's the one you see between Liz and Grandma just when they are having their "soulmate" discussion. And you can see it a little earlier, when they walk into the room. That's Liz's room, right? It's just before Maria joins them. The picture seems like a boy with dark hair similar to to the images of Max when he first encountered Liz at school. But why would Liz have a picture of that in her room at that time? So maybe it's someone else? GraceKel Level 4   Registered: Dec 1999  Posts: 638 06-18-2000 07:31 PM Yes Nemo I noticed that pic too and it does look like a young boy and I thought now why would that be in her room and then I thought well maybe it is a pic of her with short hair but she never did have short hair did she even when she was young but they have never shown the pic close up so....I guess we will have to wait and see. Interesting though! What about the other pics any thoughts on those? Well I know that the pic in the hosp room seems to reinforce the INDIAN connection somehow but.... I think I am going to lose my mind if I do not figure things out b4 next season...ha! All times are PT(US) Copyright (c) Fan Forum 2000. All rights reserved. Copyright (c) Jelsoft Enterprises Limited 2000.