MAX AS HEALER. Up till this time Max has healed bruises and bullets. Michael has healed broken bones. But the healing of disease is something new. We had a discussion about this before when Max couldn't heal Claudia. But now we see he can heal cancer. ????? Does this mean that his healing powers are limited only to his personal stamina? And if he pushed beyond his own limits could he loose his powers completely?

MENTAL BALANCE. Interesting that Kyle talked about the relationship between mind and body. Last season we saw a physical situation (the lodge) cause an imbalance in Michael's system. Did it seem to you that in tonight's eppy we saw a mental situation (Max's trauma in watching the man die) cause a mental imbalance in Max? An imbalance that was corrected when he healed those kids? And what was that spectre that only Max could see? Was it simply something produced by his guilt? Was it simply a dramatic vehicle useful to our writers and nothing more? Or was it something more "super" natural? Did it seem to you that there was A LOT of healing going on in this eppy outside of the hospital? Hmmmm?

THE RECORDS. When were those records of the special unit destroyed? Are we to believe that now NOONE in the government knows of our favorite 3 (okay, okay, it's Christmas...our favorite 4...BTW it is OT but I really liked Tess in this eppy. And I've always thought she'd go great with Kyle).

THE ETHICS OF POWERS. The big question...it is not only IF one can do something...but if one should. Max is not God. Did you get the idea that the use of power--even for the "good"--is not without its own risks?

Okay folk--what did you think?

LSS

PS Happy Holidays!

I suppose we're to presume Liz is changed from Max healing her, right? Kyle is up in the air at the moment -- he could be changed, maybe not, who knows (although the drastic change in personality is quite odd; I'm almost inclined to believe he has changed, of course, that's just me).

If Max "changes" *all* those he heals... are those kids Max healed in the hospital going to "change" too?? If so, could this possibly coincide with Max's purpose on Earth? Yes or no, I'd love to read some thoughts on this.

Melodious

About the ethics of power: The Christ archetype was laid in rather thickly wasn't it? Max healing all those kids with the laying of hands and Maria's statement, this is the birthday of our Lord and Savior, Christmas,etc, it I felt like I was smothered under it.

quote:posted by LSS

The big question...it is not only IF one can do something...but if one should. Max is not God. Did you get the idea that the use of power--even for the "good"--is not without its own risks?

I admit I have a bias right now. Let's look back to what Max said in Missing. "I was saving a life." There will always be a risk with every decision you make, but having free will lets you overcome objections for the greater good. In this case, Max had to heal all those kids to restore his balance, and his powers.

The fact is, it's not that he saved lives that comes into question. Everyday people have been known to save lives. It's his method. So the question to me is not "should Max be saving lives". If you can help someone, you should. It all comes down to the consequences of the method he uses. And what are they that we know of...?

exhaustion....exposure...silverhand print....altering of the human condition.

Only the latter one really raises an ethical issue in my eyes. Hopefully, we will get a better understanding of it in future episodes.

2. The Ghost This seemed more of a figment of Max's imagination. Max was on a MEGA-guilt trip, with the ghost acting as Max would have expected (even talking about the "balance"), and giving Max no information that he did not already know. Even when Max entered Brody's home, lights were on, food was on the table, and Max could have guessed they had left for an emergency. The ghost did not tell him what hospital. Max probably called the Roswell hospital and found out she had been been transferred to Pheonix. He also could have found out the floor and room himself. When Max was healing the children, the ghost disappeared once Max really got into it - probably because when he became obsessed with healing, his mind dropped the periferal thoughts such as the ghost. Basically, the ghost did and said everything a guilt-ridden Max would have expected and wanted him to.

3. Tess Evidently, Nasedo did not bring Tess up in a Christmas-celebrating home. One got the idea that she was anxious to have a Christmas for once, and she seemed very disappointed in the Valenti version of the holiday, so took it upon herself to MAKE them celebrate. Actually it was rather sad in a funny way. I had been hoping that Nasedo had some version of the religious holiday. You would think he could have at least faked it.

4. Max's Powers Max has always been weakened after healing. Tonight we found he had a limit on how much healing he could do. Also, his expression while diagnosing Sydney showed surprise as if he wasn't sure he could do it, and as if the feel of her disease was odd. Interesting that it took him quite a while to regain his powers. Judging by his conversation with Michael the next evening, Max still did not feel 100% and had just begun to get his powers back. When he and Tess collapsed in "Harvest" while trying to keep the "force field/shield" in place, it did not take them so long to recover. Apparently healing is much more draining than some of their other powers. Could this be why Max is the master healer - because he is the most powerful? Michael did heal a broken bone (I would think this was easier), and Tess healed Max's abrasions, but Max is still the most adept at healing.
About Max not being able to heal GC: the doctors said she was dying, and her systems were shutting down, so Max could not have saved her because it would have involved too much, and some things - like brain damage - can't be reversed by Max.

5. Michael's attitude towards the "King" Courtney has opened the door to turning against Max on the grounds that he was not a good or effective leader. Michael has called Max "sensitive", and now Max has displayed obsessive kindness at the risk of his own life and of exposing them all. Is this the personality of King Zan or Max Evens? Although Michael wished he could have helped heal at the hospital, he must be wondering if Max is tough enough to be a leader. Will he be able to make sweeping decisions of life and death correctly without curling up in a ball afterwards? Michael must be having doubts. Will this help Michael to decide against following King Zan?

If Max "changes" *all* those he heals... are those kids Max healed in the hospital going to "change" too?? If so, could this possibly coincide with Max's purpose on Earth? Yes or no, I'd love to read some thoughts on this.

Melodious

Hi Melodious!

The Tess duplicate inferred that Liz was changed because Max brought her back from a near-death experience. Now--both Liz and Kyle were on the brink of death. The kids looked like they were in a terminal pediatric ward...but not exactily on the brink of death. Our writers could make a distinction on that ground.

Of course, the same cannot be made with Kyle. And yes--the timing his whole Buddhist stance seems very suspicious. Perhaps "change" looks different in different people?

Good points!

LSS

For government types who still remember the implication of silver handprints: Max may have done a good PR job, but he has also left a clue behind. If anyone investigates this nationally televised story, they will find that one of the children has a parent living in Roswell and claiming to have been abducted by aliens who cured his cancer - coincidence? Even if Nasedo destroyed all records of Max, did he also kill all the doctors and agents that knew about Max? If they look closly at Brody, they will see that he owns the UFO museum where Max Evans has worked for over a year. Some of the FBI agents must remembr being in there, or at least following Max there. If I were Max, I would be looking over my shoulder.

Since Sydney is cured, will she be spending more time with her daddy? Will she visit the museum or the Crash Down? Can she ID Max?

Playing God: I agree that there's a difference between the kids and GC in terms of what was wrong with them, but I think the greatest difference was in Max's attitude. In LN he was an outside factor. It wasn't his grandmother, and he had no sense of life debt. Also, he was only just beginning to use his powers with any regularity.

Now, however, we see him (all of them, actually) using their powers right and left, to open doors, slice turkey, etc. And Max's sense of obligation I think lead him to turn a blind eye to the "playing God" notion.

I found it interesting that Max admitted outright that he doesn't believe in God (I've seen threads that wondered about this in the past.) Maybe that's why he tries to do so much himself -- he doesn't believe there is any other force out there.

Handprints Piercedo may have destroyed the records, but surely there are still *people* out there who remember the records and know what silver handprints imply?

This may be OT, but did anyone else think that Mrs. Evans was incredibly dense for not pairing the miraculous healings with the pigeon from TH?

I don't think it would be a far stretch to believe we'll be seeing another (and / or many) Agent Stevens, Topolskys or Pierces again in Roswell.

quote:Even if Nasedo destroyed all records of Max, did he also kill all the doctors and agents that knew about Max?

Or even others like Whitaker possibly? People that were in the know from the agents themselves. Or people like Hubble or Larry & Jen who undoubtedly keep tabs on strange pheomenon like the above. Gov't agents aren't the only threat. VERY risky move Mr. Evans.

quote:If I were Max, I would be looking over my shoulder.

I *certainly* hope Max will have the backing of Mike, Isabel and Tess on this. He's going to need it! Although I doubt their problems and distrust amongst each other will just go poof and be bye bye over one heart-warming night. There's still tension brewing amongst all of them and if the Special Unit is reinstated, topping that off with Nikolas & the Skins (amongst other aliens) wanting the Granilith... Oh the drama

quote:Since Sydney is cured, will she be spending more time with her daddy? Will she visit the museum or the Crash Down? Can she ID Max?

Very good question Palomino although one is seemingly to assume Sydney's mom has permanent custody. Brody said she would only be there a few days (just for the Holidays if I remember correctly). She would probably be gone before she seems Max again (presumedly). Also Sydney didn't seem to wake and didn't see Max... but if you mean "recognize him" as in somehow "sense" his presence (almost seemingly like Liz can do now?) then I would find that MOST intriguing.

I also enjoyed your thoughts LSS, I'm almost more intrigued by the idea that Max DID change those kids. What a problem (or possibly blessing? More "helping hands" perse?) this would be for our fearless leader in the future.

Melodious

Isabelis more accepting, she wants to be on earth always and makes sure that she participates in Christmas things b/c of her being alien w/human DNA. Her need for everything to be normal is important to her. She did not even use ANY powers in this episode, she really meant to have a NORMAl christmas.

The Children-They will probably forget b/c they were up playing and not showing signs of knowing what happened. When a child doesn't feel well they are usually more obedient than a healthy child. They could have been on medication etc. As for the silver handprints if the government was on to Max it probably would not have been in the news perhaps?
_--I know this is long, but I have to get it out before I explode

The whole DG thing: I was thinking, they don't know all there powers yet, Nasedo pointed that out. If they can exist in mutiple time dimensions, maybe they can see in them too. Maybe that was the DG. But Palomino had some very good points here.

Playing God: Well, since I'm a buddhist, I don't believe in god, so I'm biased, but I think it is cool to help people as much as possible in any way you can. Plus, Max is part of everything, so why can't he be in the Plan or whatever? I mean, if there is a god, would he just be for humans?

Michael: I think that maybe Michael feels guilty about a lot of stuff, and maybe this was his way of channeling it too. I mean, Michael is still the only one to kill a human. They seem to be a little less severe about wasting aliens, though Isabel did freak about Whitaker.

Altering human condition: Well, if they are positive changes, why not? I mean Liz can kind of dream walk, that is good. Plus, seriously, if there are aliens out there (or here) if they could improve people's lives, that would be a great thing. Think Strangers by Dean Koontz here.

Okay, I rambled enough, I just think this is all really cool.

Now, about The Ghost or DG: Wowww...So Max is going to 'be there' for the DG's wife & kids...
I immediately thought that PZan must have had a connection with GC and promised he'd be there for her 'kids' which could include any future generations, i.e. Liz. I know this doesn't quite fit with Liz The Wise whom Max obviously needs, and it wrecks the serendipity of romance in the present, but I think the basic premise may be valid. Anyone care to tweak it & make it work?

And nevermind the silver handprints left behind (just tell anyone who asks that they're members of the Mark of the Behr cult ) : I can really see Max walking into the museum when Brody & daughter are there and Sydney (as in Austraila?) saying: "Daddy! That's the angel who healed me!"

Any changes aren't necessarily bad. Liz seems to have gained some kind of power through her change.

As far as whether they have been changed at all- Liz was healed, then spent a huge amount of time around Aliens, especially Max, who were often using their powers. I would guess that this constant exposure to Aliens and Alien powers developed whatever the healing catalyzed.

I would be very surprised not to see some government agency take notice of the news reports. Even if no one re-creates the Special Unit within the FBI, surely it has its military counterpart. What happened to Cavitt and Dodie from So47? I think we may find out.

Isabel didn't use her powers at all. I was so hoping she'd dreamwalk Alex. *sigh*

Hi plumeria!

I found it extremely interesting. In Leaving Normal Max protested to Liz that he was "not God." After the rerun of that eppy we had a discussion on this thread of the religious beliefs (or lack thereof) of our aliens. And--there have been several threads at one time or another that have dealt with "Religion and SF."

Now, as someone has noted, it is a given that with the season there would be some mention of the Christmas event. And using the term "miracle" in the eppy's title is also somewhat evocative (though certainly there is a secular dimension to the term as well).

But let's look at what this eppy gave us in terms of religion:

***initially both Max and Michael were adamant in their rejection of a god concept. This was both vocalized at some time in this eppy and also symbolized by their refusal to go to the midnight service. (NOTE: neither female alien even hesitated about attending the service.)

***Michael changed his mind about going after receiving what he humorously refered to as two answers to prayer. A bit gruff but what do you expect from Michael?

***Max goes to the service--but one gets the idea his presence is not an admission of belief but of following the man's suggestion that he be with those he loves. And Liz's question and Max's reply at the end are indeed interesting.

Max doesn't believe in God...but he believes in Liz. And that, I would guess, will be Max's road to salvation. The notion of God becoming flesh is what the Christmas story is all about. And Christians in the two thousand years since the original event have taken to heart that idea...of their own flesh representing God in the world. It was an extremely interesting ending. Not only for warming my dreamer heart, but for once again showing the importance of Liz in Max's life and the lives of all the aliens.

LSS

Hi AlexEvans!

Actually you are right in thinking that it is rather implausible that the palm print information is now completely destroyed. Even if the whole installation was blown to smitherines, one would expect that some information (or some person) existed somewhere outside of it. Of course, that is the value of being a writer--like deities, they can create or destroy with simply a word!

LSS

I actually was expecting a light to dawn in DE's eyes. Remember, not only did she have the tape of Max healing the pidgeon, she also had the conversation with Valenti (and the actual incident report) about the healing of Liz at the Crashdown and Max's part in this. Perhaps we will see something about DE putting 2 + 2 together in a future episode.

As for DG, I totally think that was his conscience. DG even said that he knew all of Max's thoughts. You know those expressions about little voices in your head and the angel/devil that sits on your shoulder? Well, for Max, it was the DG.

You know--you are right. But I was so thrilled to see the both parents alive and well that it was hard for me to get beyond that! Of course there is nothing to indicate that the parents are privy to the silver hand print theme. I don't think that Valenti shared that with Max's mom nor can we suppose that the pigeon flew off into the sunset with silver markings.

And remember--a parent that never checks on whether their offspring are indeed where they should be after 1:00a.m. can hardly be called "alert."

(I know, I know--parent bashing in this case is a rather cheap shot...but I really think that parents do play a larger part in their children's lives than what we are seeing in Roswell...at least loving parents do and that is what we are supposed to think of Max's parents.)

A parent who does know where her teens are,

LSS

Hi alderbaren!

You are right...timing was mentioned with GC. But in the conversation that followed that eppy, opinions varied as to 1) whether Max could heal disease, 2) whether Max even attempted to heal GC (some argued that Max's intervention was a success--that all he had tried to do was help Liz communicate with her Grandmother), and 3) what were the limits (if any) on Max's powers of healing.

This eppy told us that: 1) Max can heal disease, and that 2) he has no hesitation in intervening in the natural process of disease and death. This latter observation is extremely important. The history of medicine has a number of examples where--when confronted with a medical breakthrough--people hesitated on religious grounds. Sometimes this hesitation was based on the idea that medicine went against God's will for the person. After all, they thought, if God allowed the person to get sick--there must be a reason. Liz's words to Max were actually a very faint echo of this idea (when she told him that sometimes it would be better not to interfere).

How did Max know that it wasn't the children's "time"? To say that he did is to hint that in a perfect world every one should live to a ripe old age. But if that happened it would be a disaster in terms of population and resources wouldn't it?

LSS

Max doesn't believe in God...but he believes in Liz. And that, I would guess, will be Max's road to salvation. The notion of God becoming flesh is what the Christmas story is all about. And Christians in the two thousand years since the original event have taken to heart that idea...of their own flesh representing God in the world. It was an extremely interesting ending. Not only for warming my dreamer heart, but for once again showing the importance of Liz in Max's life and the lives of all the aliens.

LSS

[/B]

I'll come back with more detailed comments on healing powers and suchlike, but LSS, there's a line in Henry Miller's Tropic of Cancer (a good book for an agnostic), I paraphrase, but I'm not that far off:

"I don't believe in God. I don't believe in anything more important than myself, except for you."

Which is kind of the expanded version of what Max says to Liz. Recognizing Liz as a higher force in his life is bound to make him come to some spiritual realization.

(Mr. Juniper, who's a healer - meaning he heals people, not whatever that label means on this forum - is the biggest fan of the show's switch to a sci-fi angle. At the end of the episode, even Mr. Juniper said, "when are they going to get these two kids (M&L) back together!?!"

Melodious1 - I so had the same question that you did as to the “healing”. I believe that the children were on deaths door because they were undergoing experimental treatments. From personal experience, this is usually only tried as a last ditch effort. So, now we will have Liz, Kyle and a pigeon and the whole of the Phoenix Pediatric - Oncological Ward running around as mutants. The writers had better make a distinction soon or perhaps the pod squad should just take out a billboard.

Still out on the dead guy. Originally and still believe that he was just a manifestion of Max’s major guilt trip. On the other hand, some believe that spirits remain if there are unresolved issues but can’t see this as the reason because dead guy wasn’t really worried about his family (he spoke admirably about his wife and her abilities to deal). Also, why would a spirit remain to save a being whom he didn’t know even though they lived on the same block?

As to the possibility of future identification by the children I don’t really see it as a threat. Little one are so accepting and then there is that whole angel imagery.

As for the healing itself, I agree with Aldebaran. With GC is was the winding down of the body - it was her “time”. Wouldn’t a physical disease also qualify as the children’s “time”. There was no violent occurrence? I’m sorry to say this but given the motivation and the disregard for the greater scheme of things (Liz’s end window discussion), I view Max’s selfless act as completely selfish.

Actually, if you look at it from the perspective of "his powers have developed," it's easy to see why he couldn't heal GC in season one, but is now capable of so much more. Recall that he could age the bones in S&B but couldn't do anything about his own blood chemistry in BB after the accident.

This was a spectacular episode for Mr. Juniper and I, because as I mentioned he's a healer too. And on a particularly long day after lots of "healings," Mr. Juniper is wiped out too!

I was a little confused about the "are your powers returning?" scene with Michael. Have we ever seen this before? Has this been implied before, that overuse leads to inability to perform? Tess was also pretty wigged at the end of MitC. Was this the same net effect? I don't remember the end of Harvest too well. She "rebounded" well after annhilating the skins?

MENTAL BALANCE:

The use of the dead father, to me, was more of a seasonal vehicle a la the Ghost of Christmas Past, Present, Future, etc., in Dickens. (Wasn't this episode called 'A Roswell Christmas Carol?') I saw less psychological projection and more plot device. The ghost didn't go away when Max's trauma was over. He had a closing scene where the ghost returns home. If it was an image born of Max's mental anguish, wouldn't he have vanished after the healings?

The notion of Balance, or restoring the Balance, was about give and take. A life is taken; a life is restored. Except that Max couldn't stop himself from healing the rest of the ward. Out of balance again. Yes, there was more than just physical healings going on. Tess healed a part of herself that still feels like a neglected little girl. Amy and Jim healed a relationship that was rocky before it even began. Isabel healed a desire to appear rather than a need to be.

THE RECORDS:

Yeah, this was handled lamely. If they think there aren't more Hubbles, Athertons, and other freaks out there who know about the handprints, plus FBI underlings, boy are they dumb. But - it's Christmas. Let it go. Actally, this silver handprint situation didn't match the MO of the previous (when it was on a dead body), so maybe it's not so far-fetched. After all, the only other handprint was on Liz, and only Kyle and Jim knew about that. The world at-large, nor the FBI, was not aware of Liz's mark. If anything, to the outside world, what we've got is a 'copycat' handprint or a bizzarre calling card of an anonymous charity healer.

THE ETHICS OF POWERS:

Called to heal...but just becouse you're given powers, should you be forced to use them if your own safety, and the safety of others, is an issue? Didn't Jesus have reservations about performing miracles and parlor tricks just to prove he was who he said he was?

More suitable for the politics thread, but Max-as-Messiah was done to a T here. If you think back, cool as he was, Jesus didn't fare too well in the end. Does Max reject god, or does he think that god has rejected him? (Why hast thou forsaken me?) It's easy for me to see why Max is an atheist. If there's a god, why did he take a gentle soul, put it in the body of a half-breed alien former king, and make him run for his very life? I'd have a problem believing in god's benevolence also.

But I don't think it's over the top. Like I said, it was a Christmas episode. They have the right to play up the "Our Lord and Saviour" angle. (Does that make Kyle Lazarus?)

exhaustion....exposure...silverhand print....altering of the human condition.

Only the later one really raises an ethical issue in my eyes. Hopefully, we will get a better understanding of it in future episodes.

[/B]

Qfanny, I think Liz alluded to exactly this in her monologue near the end...we all have a purpose, and it is some people's purpose to be ill. People's diseases can be purposeful. Many people with cancer or AIDS say it was the best thing that could have happened to them. It helped them become close to their families, it helped them allow a higher power into their life, it showed them how to let others care for them, etc. Of course, when it's children, it's hard to see what possible purpose their being sick and dying can serve. But maybe the purpose is not always for us to know.

Max screwing with people's purposes in life - does that affect the Balance?

Guess this is OT. Sorry. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Sci-Fi discussion.

Max screwing with people's purposes in life - does that affect the Balance?

Guess this is OT. Sorry. We now return you to your regularly scheduled Sci-Fi discussion.

Hi Juniper!

No--rest assured it is not OT. Do you know that whole university Religion and Philosophy courses are structured around SF materials? Part of the beauty of SF as a thought experiment is that it allows us to think of ethical and moral issues. Tonight's eppy had more "soft" than "hard" SF in it and that is okay by me!

LSS

The ghost
Palomino, I liked your take on the ghost as a manifestation of Max's guilty conscience,but I was thinking about another dimension solution like Pandora_is_a_Behrian. To the audience both GC and DG are identical. They both look like ghosts, or manifestations of the dead or dieing person's spirit. Maybe one of Max's powers is to "channel" spirits. In GC's case, he allowed Liz to see her spirit as well, while in DG's case only Max saw him. Since the manifestation is somehow enabled by him, the manifestation gets to "know" Max the longer Max is enabling the manifestation. Creepy..., but it explains both sides.

I found Liz's monologue very deterministic. There's some master plan that Max is supposed to respect, however, it's Liz herself who suggests he heal Sydney. And it is Liz who's the shows big free will propnent. Although, maybe this season, that role has fallen more to Max.

Juniper Does that make Kyle Lazarus?

Happy Holidays

SF

I've been thinking about this since I've seen "Max in the City". We know from that episode that when Max healed Liz he changed her. We can also suspect that he more than likley changed Kyle. The speculation is that it was because of their near death experiences that caused them to be changed.

What if it's not that? What if it's something completley different?

We know that Max and gang are genetically engineered humans, infused with the escence of the royal caste on their home planet. We also know that their bodies were created as if they had undergone millenia of evolution. Their powers are merely what humanity will achieve in a few thousand years.

Now let's suppose that the energy field generated by Max's healing people causes a cellular mutation on the DNA level, making them evolve at a faster rate than most humans. Continued exposure to the field increases the speed of the mutations. Furthermore, let's suppose that these increased exposures link the people together in some way. This could explain why Liz was able to manifest her abilities with Isabel's help in "Max in the City". She was sufficiently evolved to use them, but not quite evolved to use them without help. Also Isabel and Max are very close because of their familial relationship.

Liz and Max are close because of the healing and subsequent romantic entaglements. They also share flashes with each other. A sure sign of small levels of power transferage. Some people would point out that Kyle never saw flashes with Max. That's true, neither did Liz at first. In the Pilot it wasn't until Max tried to make the connection go the other way that allowed Liz to see inside of Max. He never did that with Kyle.

I almost shudder to think what would have happened had Tess and Kyle been successful at trimming each other's lamps. Surley sexual contact would increase the level of energy transferrance. Is there a limit the human body can sustain? Also, it's been suggested that sexual contact makes the bonds permanent. In "End of the World" Future Max stated that once they'd had sex, they became inseprable.

Would the children be affected? More than likley yes. Anyone who was healed by Max would be. They were infused with Max's energy, causing their cells to mutate and evolve at a faster rate. What would be the reason for this though? They're fighting a war. War needs soldiers. Sure, they're children now, they looked about 6 - 8 years old. But in 10 years they will be mature enough to handle fighting. We know that the Skins will invade in 2014. The children will be sufficiently old enough by that time to handle the defense of the world.

There was also a lot of talk about restoring the balance in this episode. Could the balance be about something other than what we're led to believe? We know that the Dupes are bad. Well except for Ava. With Zan dead, Lonnie and Rath obviously not good, perhaps subconsciously Max felt it important to create replacements for them, therby putting the balance back into his favour? Perhaps the Ghost was just his subconscious mind attemting to get him to create new replacements?

Or perhaps I'm just way off base...

Petey Pete...

I had another thought about Max's healing...

For Liz and Kyle, he was healing something very specific and localized -- a bullet wound. He put his hand over that specific site and Healed it. But for the sick children, it is much more likely that their cancers were pervasive, spread throughout their bodies. So how is it that Max was able to again just put his hand at a single spot and heal a body-wide disease?

And we have the inconsistency again that Liz *had* to look at Max, but Kyle and the children did not. Yet Max still got flashes of the children -- so I'm going to assume that he got flashes of Kyle too, although we were not privy to that.

Hmmm, I didn't even think of that. Didn't they also mention that Cadmium X was radioactive? That would suggest that the relative radoactivity would determine the speed with which the mutations occur.

In Liz and Kyle it would be slow because of the relativiley small areas that were healed. It's only with Max's continued presence in Liz's life that led to her receiving more energy.

quote:I had another thought about Max's healing...

For Liz and Kyle, he was healing something very specific and localized -- a bullet wound. He put his hand over that specific site and Healed it. But for the sick children, it is much more likely that their cancers were pervasive, spread throughout their bodies. So how is it that Max was able to again just put his hand at a single spot and heal a body-wide disease?

I would think it's all about energy fields. The field envolopes the damaged areas and repairs them. The more damage the person has, the stronger the field needs to be. This could explain why Max looked like he was in physical pain after each healing.

It probably took a lot of power to generate a field strong enough and large enough to envolp an entire body and remove the disease from it. Perhaps the level of Cadmium X in the person would be higher in this case, speeding the evolution even more?

quote:And we have the inconsistency again that Liz *had* to look at Max, but Kyle and the children did not. Yet Max still got flashes of the children -- so I'm going to assume that he got flashes of Kyle too, although we were not privy to that.

Max in the Pilot had stated that he'd never done anything like that before. So he wasn't sure how to go about doing it? Perhaps as his powers grew, he realized that it's all about generating the proper type of field around the person to heal them. To do that, you wouldn't need to see into their eyes for it.

Or it could be something simpler. Perhaps he was afraid that if he looked into the kids eyes, they might see flashes from him. It would be horrible if a child saw the kinds of things he had to endure in the White Room.

Petey Pete...

quote:I was a little confused about the "are your powers returning?" scene with Michael. Have we ever seen this before? Has this been implied before, that overuse leads to inability to perform?

This scene fits in very well with the Roswell High books. In those, when need for extreme powers is called upon, it takes a while for the 'power wielder' to recover, i.e. 'recharge his/her batteries'. That is the first thing I thought of when Michael says that to Max. Nice take off on the books. Yes, I know that our Roswell series has departed drastically from the books, but from time to time, one does see a tie-in. And really, it makes sense, both emotionally and physically.

the pigeon with a broken wing
Liz's gunshot wound
Kyle's gunshot wound

all of those COULD quailify as subcategories of changing molecular structure (at least they are in the books-squeezing molecules together)

Max could NOT heal Grandma Claudia in Leaving Normal so i naturally assumed he didn't have the power to heal-just change molecular structure. Apparently I was wrong. This brings up a LOT of issues which have been discussed about playing God, is there a God and when it's "time" to depart this earth. I think the issues are too big to deal with in a one-hour TV show.

About the children... we probably won't see them again. I have a feeling the writers will conveniently skip the changing part of the healing of the children.

The flashes... did Max get flashes when healing Kyle? I don't think he did. Why did he get flashes now of the children? What causes the flashes? when does he get them?

The handprint... I think that was a VERY dangerous move for Max to heal all those kids. There has to be SOMEONE who knows that silver handprint=alien. Even if it is their alien enemies. However I doubt this will be addressed in future episodes. (ahh the wonders of TV!)

The parents... wow look they're alive and dad is played by the same actor he was in MTD. There's something consistent. But really... Max takes off to Pheonix in the middle of the night and his parents don't NOTICE? My parents would know if I or my siblings snuck out. Believe me because my siblings have thought about trying it! I really hoped Mrs. Evans would say "and that handprint... (blah blah) makes you believe in SOMEONE or SOMETHING higher power blah blah" because that might be kind of a code for recognizing what Max did. But no... she's still in the fog.

I think that's all I want to say for now. happy holdidays!!

Pooh

A flat blanket statement that no one can budge me from: Each person that Max has healed, has been changed in some way
because on the celluar level things must be changed in order to be healed...now here comes my wrench...

...Everyone (and I agree) that Liz was changed no question, also because she was open enough to Max that she was allowed to see what he saw, when he healed her (after the fact)-- this I believe what has lead Liz to see visions in Max's head and things that concern Max...she allowed herself to be open to it. We've also seen this with M&M, Maria was open enough to show Michael her red sneakers, but Michael (at that point) was not opening enough to show Maria anything. This also leads to the Nasedo/Max, when Liz kissed him, she saw things, but not the right things, so she knew he was not Max. That was the end of it until Ava stated that Liz was changed (how we still don't know)...but Max and Liz are connected because they are so open with each and with the of Isabel dreamwalking ability Liz saved Max's life.

...Kyle...I think perhaps Max did see flashes of Kyle (we were just not allowed to see them) and we have an inconsistency on the writer's part with the conversation bwtn Kyle and Liz, Max showed Liz things and she was open to them, but she did not see anything during the actual process. With Kyle, he nearly died so he now is searching for something out there.

...the children...Again Max has flashes of them. Its my belief that children are always open until the world in general disappoints them.

Bear with me I'm getting to my point....

If these changes that Max has done to all these people are not nutured in some way and is not helped by another alien, they (the changes, i.e. powers?) will not manifest and grow.

As for GC...maybe it has something to do with their age, b/c lets face it from the time of birth to approximately 22 humans are still growing. From Age 22 down we stop growing and start to degenerate (morbid yes, but true in some fashion). GC was at the end of her life cycle and no longer growing so perhaps this is why Max could not hear her?

I look forward to everyone's thought on my comments....if they make sense.

Ciao
Ms. Gwyn
Vote for a Harry Potter Board

I really hoped Mrs. Evans would say "and that handprint... (blah blah) makes you believe in SOMEONE or SOMETHING higher power blah blah" because that might be kind of a code for recognizing what Max did. But no... she's still in the fog.
[/B]

Hi Pooh and others:

Come on...you think it should be easy for Mrs. Evans to see or figure out that her son is an ALIEN? I'm 29 years old and my mother has trouble believing I can tie my own shoes. She thought I was a virgin until I was 20. You think Diane could take a long, critical look at her son -- and a few measly weird/paranormal clues -- and conclude that he's alien? Parents are the last to know, and not just on TV. I completely buy that she's in a fog.

Now, that "Romeo and Juliet" crapola from Lonnie...

..............................................................................................................
Does Max reject god, or does he think that god has rejected him? (Why hast thou forsaken me?) It's easy for me to see why Max is an atheist. If there's a god, why did he take a gentle soul, put it in the body of a half-breed alien former king, and make him run for his very life? I'd have a problem believing in god's benevolence also.
............................................................................................................

I tried to explain this to my family, but you worded it so much better! I'll have hogtie them and make them read your post.

I read a quote recently to the effect that a problem with God is often a manifestation of a problem with the father--one's own and the universal archetypal father. If that need hasn't been met--has been absent, or worse, abusive--a young person's response can be a lack of belief in anything transcendant.

Fatherhood was a prominent theme in this ep. Brody, the dead dad-- Max is a fatherless child. I can't think of anyone who has suffered a worse abandonment. In addition to the normal teenage stuff yada yada yada he has this bizarre high calling, royal status, powers he can't fathom, the "lives of millions hanging in the balance" that he's responsible for. He's lived in trauma and terror, all because of something he can't remember. He has an earthly dad who tries, but Roswell is about kids who have passed beyond adult help. He has a real father who is dead. Believe in God? I don't think so.

Once he's learned to trust and believe in himself that may change, once he's begun to fulfill his destiny.

The episode was interesting in that there were all sorts of levels of spirituality depicted. Much more than could be touched on in an hour. I tend to prefer religious references to be veiled in symbolic content, but I suppose that's not always possible in a story set not in Middle-earth but the here and now. And I'm glad that Maria stated her own views so openly!

People talk about what a blow it would be to religion if aliens really did contact us. But religions are local, ethnic roads to universal spiritual realms, and aliens would have religions too. I do think that God is God everywhere and for everybody.

I'll have to watch the episode again (I usually watch them four or five times anyway ) to have anything further to say that's halfway coherent. It's interesting at Christmas time to contemplate a show that's all about incarnation and reincarnation.

Hope the holidays are happy for all of you.

Version 2: The 'aliens' are all time travelers trying to beat each other at a 4-dimensional chess game.

--not sure where to post it, so I'm posting it on this thread & the Liz thread--the mods can shoot me so long as Max is ready to come forward and do the laying on of hand routine

Hi, ValentiFan! Interesting you mention this. During last night's episode, I thought about a conversation I had years ago with a priest who posed a question about how the Catholic Church would go about proclaiming its message to inhabitants of another planet--if we ever encountered them. Specifically, how to translate a "human's" message to non-humans.

On another topic, about Max's healing of the children: wasn't it mentioned in one of the earlier episodes this season that the podsters' powers were getting stronger? I think we've seen this to some degree and, additionally, we've seen Max develop a new power. Maybe the PodSquad's powers are continuing to evolve with each new challenge they face; adapting, changing, becoming more defined as they problem-solve their way through the situations they face. Sharpening their knives against the stones, so to speak.

For instance, in tonight's episode it looked like when Max first approached Sydney, he struggled momentarily to figure out (or feel with his powers) what the problem was and then determined how to fix it. I don't think he's done that with any other healings. So, I'm wondering if we will continue to see the PodSquad broaden their powers--while continuing to refine them--throughout the rest of the season. (Although, maybe that depends on the show's special effects budget!)

The two things that made Liz's healing uniquie were 1) the fact that she was so close to death/had actually crossed over into death at one point (yes, I know that there is some debate about this) and 2) the flashes. Kyle was pretty close to death, but no flashes. The kids got flashes, but death wasn't as eminent as it was with Liz and Kyle, who were "brought back from the dead." Technically, the kids were just dying, not dead.

As for Max being able to cure cancer...I'm definitely going to need some clarity on that from the writers, since it pretty much flies in the face of his own description of his powers. Maybe the fact that all the aliens are getting stronger, as was noted in "Surprise," means that their are fewer limitations on his powers.

...I read a quote recently to the effect that a problem with God is often a manifestation of a problem with the father--one's own and the universal archetypal father...I've heard a lot of sermons on this theme as well. But Max has had the benefit of father Evans, so his lack of belief would likely have a different root--perhaps the geocentric interpretations of scripture told in Sunday school. But it's still possible he is angry at his 'alien' father for abandoning him.

Vf, to quote from another's post:
next to the date of the post are several little icons. If you point at the one furthest to the right (looks like a cartoon speech balloon), it will tell you this is the "reply w/quote" icon. Click on it. It's like the "reply" in an email, you can edit it before you send it (shorten it and add your comments after the [/quote] tag).

1)Some of the podsters sweat when using their powers: Max in Christmas Carol, Isobel in Surprise. Michael lost his balance in a "sweathouse." Is there a connection. I don't recall Tess sweating even when fighting Nicholas...she just complained of a headache. Is this a clue?

2)Max sees "ghosts" round three. Three you say? Grandma Claudia, Liz in NYC, and the Dead Guy. My three cents is that he's channeling them. I think Max has an "altered" sense of time that he can tap into...Courtney did say that the aliens could "access time" on their home planet.

3)Loved the episode and its religious themes (belief, unbelief and "hedging our bets") Sounds like atheism, organized religion & agnosticism to me...kind of nice for a Christmas episode, isn't it?

4)The silver handprinted kids are going to haunt Max in more ways than one, I wager. I think people will put two and two together. I do think Mrs. Evans figured it out...she's just biding her time until Max can tell her. I think that is why she made a point of inviting him to the Christmas service.

5)My take, which I haven't seen anyone address is that Max was unconsciously "giving back" those lives taken by Nasedo...how many deaths did Pierce ask Max about? It would make sense to me if it was at least four.

Hope this manages to post!

I shall believe1
Jamethiel

1)Some of the podsters sweat when using their powers: Max in Christmas Carol, Isobel in Surprise. Michael lost his balance in a "sweathouse." Is there a connection? I don't recall Tess sweating even when fighting Nicholas...she just complained of a headache. Is this a clue?

2)Max sees "ghosts" round three. Three you say? Grandma Claudia, Liz in NYC, and the Dead Guy. My three cents is that he's channeling them. I think Max has an "altered" sense of time that he can tap into...Courtney did say that the aliens could "access time" on their home planet.

3)Loved the episode and its religious themes (belief, unbelief and "hedging our bets") Sounds like atheism, organized religion & agnosticism to me...kind of nice for a Christmas episode, isn't it?

4)The silver handprinted kids are going to haunt Max in more ways than one, I wager. I think people will put two and two together. I do think Mrs. Evans figured it out...she's just biding her time until Max can tell her. I think that is why she made a point of inviting him to the Christmas service.

5)My take, which I haven't seen anyone address is that Max was unconsciously "giving back" those lives taken by Nasedo...how many deaths did Pierce ask Max about? It would make sense to me if it was at least four.

Hope this manages to post!

I shall believe
Jamethiel

Regarding the kids and if they were changed... I see Palomino's take on it very clearly. Liz was changed because she was brought back. But I also think that some of those kids were changed. I thought the kids looked too healthy myself. Chemotherapy and radiation treatments does bring you to the brink of death. Particularly with Sidney, who could only be saved with a bone marrow transfusion otherwise. If the kids really looked as sick as they were scripted, then I don't think we'd be debating this issue at all.

Just my two cents.

Palomino, continuing with our theory/plot: In the future the people of Earth were (behr with me on the verb tenses) able to colonize other planets. The "aliens" are those people, returning to "take over" the Earth because it's much more hospitable to humans (even more evolved humans), and the only reason they/we ever left was because we polluted it so badly. In fact, that is why the Skins can't handle it here without husks. (Shapeshifters, OTOH, developed other coping mechanisms of adaptation.)
So, then, the Mommogram is from the original trip the Podsters took, but in that version, Max didn't marry Liz and they all perished (again). The next version is when Tess left. So, we are now in the 3rd or 4th version, depending upon if you count not sending any podsters as the 1st of 4. How many versions did Lola have?

G'nite.

Now, about this Ep...and a few things I caught while scrolling.

The Records: Perhaps the Special Unit's records *are* destroyed. But I'd be willing to bet that there are dead storage copies somewhere. Something like this operation would have redundant archives. Trusting that Nacedo got them all is a big leap. One which I'm not prepared to take. So I have to agree with Palomino on this one. Max and the Podsters had better be at Defcon 1 from now on. Though this may give the Feds pause, since all their records indicate that the handprint is supposed to be lethal. What happens to those children may indicate whether or not a Federal body, capable of taking action, has those records. I'll sure enough be listening for any hint that Brody's daughter has been kidnapped.

Regarding Healing: Max again dragged out that Tolkien parallel. "The hands of the King are the hands of a Healer." (Or words to that effect. Now points that stick with me....

1) I never thought that Liz looking at Max was required for healing. His demand that she look at him was no different from what I've heard of other medical professionals and paramedics doing. You give the victim something to focus on. Keep them in the fight to live while you take remedial action to keep them that way. That's all he was doing. Making her stay in this world long enough for him to anchor her here.

2) I'd say Max's inability to do anything for Claudia makes sense from one major standpoint. Claudia suffered from one thing that Liz, Kyle, and all other "healed" people didn't have to contend with. Old age. What was happening to her wasn't an aberration. It was a natural consequence of being old. Then there's the brain damage. If he had healed her, would there ever have been anyone at home again?

3) Playing God. Hmmmm, this is a toughie. From an outside viewpoint I'd say no. What Max was doing was no different from what the medical professionals would have done. They simply weren't as effective as he could be. From inside, looking out through Max's eyes, I sense his concern. "Power tends to corrupt. And absolute power corrupts absolutely." He'll have to be on guard against that. Against "infallibility syndrome". In my opinion that's what he needs Liz for. To keep his ego under control.

The Ghost: I took him for an actual spirit. For one major reason. When Max broke into Brody's house to heal his daughter, she was gone. Max couldn't have known what had happened or where she was. But the ghost did. To me he reads as an independent entity, not as a manifestation of Max's guilt. Though he seemed just a touch sadistic about goading Max into action. Still being dead might tend to tick one off.

I agree with LSS, this is an aww shucks sort of episode. But it did give us some vital material. It developed some character background that we needed. My days of Tess hating are over. *g* I'll never in a zillion years accept her with Max. But, on the whole, she's growing on me. And I'd say the chances that she's a shapeshifted dupe are about zero now. She can cook like a house afire. Where would the dupes attain *that* skill while living in the sewer? They're more the "rip off a fastfood joint" or "heat a can of beans over sterno" kind of people.

One thing though. You've got a dropdead gorgeous girl staying at your house, and she cooks you your absolutely fave casserole for a special occasion. Am I reading more into this than I should?

On that note I'll step out for a bit. Laters folks.

quote:Originally posted by Kzinti_Killer:
The Records: Perhaps the Special Unit's records *are* destroyed. But I'd be willing to bet that there are dead storage copies somewhere.

Also, (this may have been mentioned before) although it might have been discouraged, I wonder if individual members of the special unit kept private records? Surely the at least some of the agents involved would make a connection to the children's handprints (if they are paying attention to the news at all). Definitely Defcon 1 for the PodSquad.

quote:Originally posted by Kzinti_Killer:
I'd say Max's inability to do anything for Claudia makes sense from one major standpoint. Claudia suffered from one thing that Liz, Kyle, and all other "healed" people didn't have to contend with. Old age. What was happening to her wasn't an aberration. It was a natural consequence of being old. Then there's the brain damage. If he had healed her, would there ever have been anyone at home again?

Could it also be that Max is now more skilled at healing than he was then? Even stronger, perhaps?

Always enjoy your posts,

Ree99

Would the FBI, or (Cavitt's) military anti-ET unit, think "hey these are good Aliens because they are healing human kids?" I somehow doubt it. But they would be made very aware of this ability. What if someone high up is losing someone he loves? Wouldn't there be a huge incentive to force Max to cooperate, perhaps through grabbing hostages? (Possibly Liz and the other humans.)

Would the FBI, or (Cavitt's) military anti-ET unit, think "hey these are good Aliens because they are healing human kids?" I somehow doubt it. But they would be made very aware of this ability. What if someone high up is losing someone he loves? Wouldn't there be a huge incentive to force Max to cooperate, perhaps through grabbing hostages? (Possibly Liz and the other humans.)

That definitely would be an interesting angle to the story, AlexEvans! I wonder if Max could "heal" a skin's dying husk. Can you imagine Nikolas holding hostages until Max heals him? Naw, he'd just go after the granolith and get back to Twilo and K'var... BUT another skin might try it!

One, the image of Max in that position, with the right hand just hovering over the solar plexus seemed awfully familiar. It took me a while to figure out where I'd seen it before. More on that later.

The second thought was that it seemed as if Max were experiencing pain corresponding to where he'd put his healing hand on the child, as if he'd taken a blow to the stomach. Do you suppose he'd somehow "transferred" the cancer to himself? That he was relying on his own amazing physical resiliance to illness and disease to get rid of the cancer? This would explain the different mechanisms at work between healing a gunshot wound and healing a disease. With the gunshot wound, it would simply be a matter of repairing the damage, much like a surgeon. To put it in terms as explained in the books, a "squeezing" of molecules together. Yes, it takes a physical toll, but does not entirely drain Max of his powers. Obviously, taking the cancer into himself would be much more devastating and require greater physical resources, particularly having done it again and again. This might also explain his inablility to help GC. Perhaps if he'd been present when she'd had the stroke, he would have been able to heal the ruptured blood vessel before the brain damage occured.

The third thought was that I wondered why he didn't run his hands over their entire bodies as he'd done with the bones. He put his hand directly on the area of trauma for both Liz and Kyle. For kids with bone cancer or leukemia, wouldn't it make sense for him to do the same number he'd done on the skeleton to rid it of the Cadmium X? Then I got to thinking about the placement of his right hand over the solar plexus. I'm no expert on Eastern philosophy/medicine (Pandora, care to help out?) but as I recall, the solar plexus is supposed to be the seat of our energy, our "selves". Significant? Very possibly.

Which brings me back to the image of Max positioned to the child's right, with his left hand on the child's head and his right hovering over the abdomen just below the sternum. I realized that that's one of the positions in polarity therapy (one of the modalities that I was exposed to in massage school...I always considered it very woo-woo, but I must confess, I've tried it a few times with good results for relaxation). I had to dig through my old massage notes to find the diagram. Sure enough, on a paper titled "Polarity Balance" (achieving a "sense of balance" is the whole point to this therapy), position number 5 has the left hand at the top of the client's head and the right hand over the upper abdomen, just below the sternum. The way I was taught, you are supposed to hold each position until you "feel" a sense of balance between your two hands. Then you move on to the next position. This can be done by either touching the client or letting your hands hover just above the client in the appropriate postitions. Hmmm. Balance. Coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.

Plumeria, I associated the Cadmium X with powers of distruction. I just assumed that that's the only time Cadmium X would be deposited. But you bring up a very interesting point. So does that mean that if Liz were to go through a metal detector, she'd set the thing off? LOL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Palomino:
1. [b]Just when you thought Roswell couldn't make any more science errors ... Everybody knows it is a scientific fact that children do not close their eyes and fall asleep when they are told - unless Max has extraordinary powers of suggestion. Hmmmm....

Hahaha. Ordinarily, I'd agree with you, Palomino, but often when my son wakes up in the middle of the night, coherent enough to talk and respond, he's amazingly willing and able to cooperate with the suggestion to "close your eyes and go back to sleep".

Rachelle

Anyway, you are quite correct in your supposition that Pierce's subordinates could have kept private records. The bureaucrat that can resist keeping tabs on the boss hasn't been appointed yet. Plus, considering their MO, *I* would have kept records to cover my butt in the event that what we had done became public knowledge. Don't forget, these little darlings were running a regular "Murder Incorporated".

AlexEvans idea has appeal. I reminds me of a shortlived series with Christopher George called "The Immortal". Kind of a "Fugitive" clone. The guy is immortal. Unkillable under most circumstances. He comes by it naturally. Transfusions of his blood can transfer the effect to others. Problem is, the effect is temporary. So some old millionaire had an outfit like Pierce's hounding the guy all over the place. Their goal, catch the guy so the boss can keep him in a cage and milk him now and again for immortality.

ValentiFan and Ree99: Regarding the impact of first contact on religion, the was a think tank under government contract in the 80's (I think it was) called CISG. Contact Impact Study Group. They were of the nearly unanimous opinion that, at the present state of our development, first contact would have a profoundly negative effect on the human race. We'd come apart as a culture the way the Amerinds did. In short, the blow to our pride would be devastating. Therefore, knowledge of first contact would need to be suppressed until the race as a whole could be prepared for it. It sounds Orwellian, or like every UFO conspiracy buff's breakfast conversation. But it's true.

Qfanny: Regarding changed children. *g* I think that the change is a by-product of the healing process. How much you are changed at that moment may depend on how much energy Max has to use to drag you out of the grave. *But*, I'll bet it has a cascade effect. Think of it as being given some money and then have it doubling every day until you reach a certain point. Liz gets a nickel. Kyle gets three pennies. And the kids get a penny apiece. Sooner or later they get to where ever Liz is heading now. It just takes them longer because their starting further back. In fact, if it's incremental, how much they're changed may depend on the nature and location of their cancer. It's terminal sure. But where was it?

In a way, this reminds me of Koontz's "Strangers". The aliens pass on longevity, telekinesis, and the power to heal to humans. Everytime one of those humans uses the power to heal someone, that person is "infected" with the ability too. It simply takes time to develop. Funny that CISG and "Strangers" should come to mind. "Strangers" is the only SF story that I can recall that used CISG as a prop.

I really liked your cascading effect theory. I’m curious how we might arrive at the original coinage (nickel, three cents, one cent). Are you thinking age? Max’s emotional state? Nature of illness/injury?

Argh... I’ve just had this intense mental image of a huge chart with overlaying line graphs reflecting all the different statistics on the effects of healing: factors at the time of healing, condition of the person healed, age of person healed, factors influencing the maturation of person’s ability, Max’s emotional state and level of duress, yada, yada, yada... I had drafted a very lengthy post about all these factors and just decided, naw... I'm getting a brain ache!

All I can say is this, Ava didn't have a feel for the situation between Max and Liz. Not in a big way. If she could grasp it at all. I get the distinct feeling that she was emotionally stunted. In any event, based on learning the simple fact that Max had healed Liz, she said that Liz had been "changed". So I'm guessing that you change no matter how you're healed. Ava and the dupes must have known of such cases. A pity the Liz didn't squeeze her for information.

So you're left with what I'd say are the following variables. Severity of injury/illness. How close you are to death. And how hard Max has to work to get the job done. Age may get a peek in there, though I can't formulate a serious reason in favor of it.

Anyone else?

So you're left with what I'd say are the following variables. Severity of injury/illness. How close you are to death. And how hard Max has to work to get the job done. Age may get a peek in there, though I can't formulate a serious reason in favor of it.

Anyone else?

I lean more to 'how deeply invested the healer is in the healing.'

Hi Leneba - thank you for the research into the healing position. I thought you were referring to the chakra system, where the crown chakra (head) is the seat of the soul, as it were. I know the throat chakra controls expression, the heart chakra love, and the rest I forget. But your report is far more applicable.

There are so many healing-related theories about what the healer may or may not 'take on' as a result of healing someone else. Some healers think they always 'catch' a little of what the patient has after a healing. Some are downright paranoid. One healer even told Mr. Juniper that he should take a shower after every healing to 'cleanse' bad stuff. Every healer seems to have a slightly different take on the subject.

Qfanny, I wanted to comment on the children being changed. If these kids all grow up and become Buddhists, who's going to be able to point to a miracle healing as a child and say 'that's why.' They're kids. Of course they're changing. Kids change. If they develop parapsychological abilities (and kids are more likely to display psychic skills anyway), who's to say they came from being healed or not? My theory is the kids are all right, as the song goes. And it's a plot point that won't be revisited.

Why hasn't Liz, ever the science girl, gone into the lab and started doing tissue studies on herself? Looking for anomalies. The Liz Parker that caught Max by scraping some cells off of his pencil would be nailed to a microscope right about now. What's the up? Are we to assume that she hasn't looked? Or has looked and found zip?

Juniper: So the panic attack applies. Because (and I don't think I made the point clear) I don't think that Ava was at all clear on how much of an emotional investment Max had in Liz. Vice versa yes. Liz made that clear. But, lacking that knowledge, she made the flat unequivocal statement that Liz had been changed. Changed enough to amplify Isabelle's signal and tune it to Max. I'd say emotional investment could affect the depth of the initial change, but not the fact of the change itself. For all I know it could depend on the emotional depth of the healer. In Max's shoes those kids would have moved me to tears. Just the sight of them. So it depends on how deep we think Max's emotions are for the pain of others. (Leading statement if there ever was one.) *g*

(snip)I don't think that Ava was at all clear on how much of an emotional investment Max had in Liz. Vice versa yes. Liz made that clear. [/B]

Yes, BUT, what you wrote reminded me that Ava mentioned she always had the feeling that 'her' Zan was looking for someone else, someone better, that he was just marking time with her. She may have seen in Liz what Zan had been seeking. Or she may have been able to relate Max to Zan and do the math. Ava probably did not tell all she knows.

Deeper and deeper into things the writers will never address...sigh.

Anyway, I'm out of town until sometime next week. Have a Merry Christmas everyone! (Or whatever holiday may apply!)

BTW, I too am leaving town Tomorrow until Jan. 5. Will check in occasionally.

Anyway, the point I was trying to convey about the children was that if the children Max healed were suffering from cancer. (It's hard to tell that they were suffering at all. There was no IV drips or anything.) Then I do think that some of those kids were brought back just as Liz was- and changed. All of the kids were healed. I guess I subscribe to the theory that nature of severity of the cancer dicitates whether or not the kids were changed.

I think that the producers made the peditric ward look really nice for us all, but it was not realistic! If Sydney's doctors bothered to move her from Roswell to Phoenix, it was because Sydney's case was very serious-- close to death. In fact, I'm very, very surprised that Sydney did not have her own room, but maybe they were just starting with another round of chemo or radiation.

BTW-- This last week I had the pleasure of boarding my 14 year old cousin who survived childhood cancer. It's nice to know that cancer does not equal death.

QFanny I am very sorry to hear about your grandfather but I'm glad your cousin is fine!
As for the children in ARCC or Miracle or whatever... they were undergoing experimental treatment, though I agree they didn't look too sick to me.

Happy holidays everyone I'm busy getting my family hooked on Roswell LOL!

Anyone else?

Age may be a part, but I agree many variables are present. Working in surgery, let me tell you the human body can tolerate MUCH abuse and return to normal or adapt so it can function. The human body is a magnificent machine, perhaps that's why Alien mom chose humans to reincarnate her children. Max may have just given the children's bodies a boost to their healing abitlity. With Liz and Kyle, I feel Max had a more direct affect on the injury incured.
Lynn

Sorry Lynn

This kind of goes off what Nasedo (I think it was Nasedo...) said about all their powers being human just far more evolved.
Pandora_is_a_Behrian; you should understand this since you're a Buddhist. I've only dabbled in Buddhism but as far as I understand it, they believe that the mind has the capability to be very powerful. However, we have all these hangups (material possessions, self-consciousness, doubt) that keep us from fully developing our mind. The really advanced Buddhist teachers can do a lot of, what we would call, supernatural things, like walking through walls, seeing the future, seeing past and future lives, dream walking, etc. (Sorry to ramble on but I do have a point that's relevant to the topic! )
Anyway, my point would be that when Max healed Liz he changed her in that he made her believe that supernatural things like that are possible. Plus, their love for each other made her believe in her own capabilities more--especially when she "dream walked" Max in MITC. That's what Ava could have meant when she said that Liz was changed. And that would also explain why Kyle and the children from ARCC (especially since they don't know they were healed by an alien) can't develop those same powers because they don't have a strong connection to one of the aliens.

I hope that wasn't too confusing.

Happy Holidays everyone!

I agree. When Liz saved Max by reaching him in Max in the City, it was part her power, part Isabel and Part that max would hear her voice if anyones. The emotional investment is important.
I am wondering if Max can only be his strongest WITH Liz there. With her power AND love for him...it would create an unbeatable power...or so I think
Ranelle

Vefore I respond, I am not speaking jive, my keyvoard needs to ve replaced so I am using a "V" for a another character it will not type. (Sorry if it makes things too confusing, or if I come across with a thick German accent.)

I think you are right avout this when dealing with normal, healthy children. Vut, these kids were suppose to ve very sick, possivly going through radiation or chemo treatments. (I know, I know, there was no IV drips to indicate this.) Even so, 11 years ago I would go visit my father at ICU when he was undergoing his chemo, and I could have told him, "Go vack to sleep Dad," or "You're dreaming, go vack to sleep." And he would have, no questions asked. He would forget I was there and wake up and ask me how long I'd veen there, etc.

Granted, mayve it's not a great comparison vecause my dad was not a child, vut when you have all sort of drugs in your system, I think it would have veen easier for Max to suggest to the kid that they were only imagining him.

Sorry avout the "V" thing.

And even if He is just for humans, I doubt He'd descriminate against half-human/half-alien hybrids.

I suspect if Max was confronted with a Grandma Claudia situation, today, he could heal her.

Which leads me back to a discussion we had at the end of Destiny. When Max healed Kyle there wasn't any silverhandprint...and we all thought it was a "blooper." Well, maybe not everybody...but there was a lot of talk. I've just rewatched "Pilot" and there wasn't a silverhandprint on Liz, either just after the healing. The silverhandprint showed up later. Now the interesting thing, in ARCC, is that they don't show Max giving any of the children silver handprints...but they talk about the fact that it does show up. It sounds to me like it is a "radiation burn." You know how when you burn your finger just a bit...the red welt doesn't show up for awhile. I think that is what is happening with Max's hand "whammies." The point of contact has so much power that it accidently "burns" human skin. When Nasedo does it, though...it burns to well and kills the victim. Sorry about the rambling...it has been a long day of holiday driving.

Jamethiel

"I shall believe."

I'm new to this thread, and I don't know if anyone else has brought this up, but I interpreted Max's statement that he couldn't heal Claudia to mean not that he *couldn't* heal her, but that there would be no point to healing just the damage from the stroke, because in Claudia's case, there probably was years of prior damage to her circulatory system that would also have to be healed, and that he probably couldn't do that extensive amount of repair on her with the time she had left.

It might be interesting to see what Max could do with someone whose stroke was a result of something like a side effect from a medication.

Qfanny: I'm so sorry to hear about your Grandfather. It's never easy to deal with the death of a loved one. At this time of year it's beyond hard.

PepperjackCandy: Hola! Welcome to the thread where the SF freaks hang out! I believe I mentioned something about this before. The one thing that Claudia was suffering from that neither Liz, Kyle, or the kids had to deal with was, old age. She was at the end of her natural span. And not facing the premature end of a short life.

I have been thinking about Zan and Ava, and how he was waiting for someone. A while back, I posted a comment on a missing symbol, and how it might have been a warning to the other wather. Suppose this was so, that the protecter to the Royal 4 spotted that there was a problem with the Royal Tess, that she was not the real bride, but an imposter. Protector No 2 sees the message, misinterprets it. He switches the Royal Tess with the Dupe Ava.

For some reason, Max, Michael and Isabel hatch before Ava, so when Nacedo arrives, he calls Ava 'Tess', unaware of the switch. Max sees Liz, and for whatever reason ( Granolith, Key, 5th Element, Vessel for the Leaked Essence ) recognises, and falls in love with her.

Meanwhile, Royal Tess hatches as Ava, and because she is not the same as the others, is not recognised as Ava by Zan; he is waiting for the real Dupe Ava, the one we know as Tess.

WR

Was anyone bothered by the way Tess carved the turkey? The fact that she could slice and dice with the wave of her hand gave me the idea that all the podsters would make excellent butchers or serial killers. I don't know, I just really bothers me that cutting flesh would be so easy for Tess.

I've forgotten where I was on this thread so I'm starting from the beginning again.

I reread this comment and it got me thinking -- what if the ultimate conflict will be between Mom's plan and the plan of a Supreme Being of some sort (God? Jason Katims? ).

I know, that's probably more fantasy than SF, probably, but the idea just seemed to somehow "click" in my mind.

Liz and possibly Kyle were literally seconds from death. The writers could draw a distinction on that basis -- within a week of death, no change; seconds from death, change.

I've always figured that Max's insisting that she look at him was more of a distraction than anything else. Like he didn't know if he could heal her while she was unconscious, or he wanted to distract her from the pain of the bullet wound (my mom says at the place she used to get her mammograms, they had a button on the wall with a sign above it that said "Do Not Look At This Button," which virtually ensured that the mammogram-ee would be looking at the button rather than stressing over the exam), or possibly he was even afraid that she'd slip away while he was healing her, and having her look at him was a way to keep her alive that many seconds longer.

That's something that I've been wondering, too. I went to a Christian high school.

I can't remember the exact argument, but it was something about how if Jesus had been incarnated on another planet as well, it'd be in the Bible, so there must not be life on other planets.

Of course, they weren't receptive to questions about whether the "sheep not of this fold" (John 10:16) that Jesus spoke about might have been on other planets . . .

In C.S. Lewis's Perelandra trilogy the fact that God intervened on this planet was due to our being in the hands of one of the bad angels, i.e. Lucifer, though he had another name that I can't remember. So when we wonder if alien worlds would know "Jesus" we assume that they would NEED to know Jesus, which ain't necessarily so. They might have more to offer us than just technology, in other words.

Just my opinion here, but really, I wish they hadn't raised the religion issue quite so overtly in ARCC. I haven't found the resulting discussions nearly as fruitful or interesting as the more general ones about myth and archetype. And this is not because I'm not religious, because I am. Things just resonate more deeply for me and probably for other people too when they are more generalized. Tolkien wrote from a profoundly Roman Catholic viewpoint but deliberately removed all references to religion in "this world" from his stories, particularly the Silmarillion, which begins with an alternate Creation story. The symbolism and resonance remain, but become deeper and more universal. IMHO

All the best in 2001--wondering if the monolith will appear--anyone remember the MAD magazine satire 201: Minutes of Space Idiocy? The apes have the following conversation:

Ape #1: What's THAT?!?
Ape #2: It looks like the box the United Nations building came in!
Ape #3: Or a Dawn of Man Tape Deck!
Ape #4: It's that mysterious big black object that's supposed to excite us and make us do intelligent things!
Ape #1: Well, I feel like doing an intelligent thing right now! I feel like quitting this stupid movie!

Actually, a wonderful movie. Hoping they're going to bring it back this year.

I can't paraphrase it well enough but it's interesting and the interview is a MUST read/hear!

I can't remember the exact argument, but it was something about how if Jesus had been incarnated on another planet as well, it'd be in the Bible, so there must not be life on other planets.

Of course, they weren't receptive to questions about whether the "sheep not of this fold" (John 10:16) that Jesus spoke about might have been on other planets...
Well, that makes no sense. If Jesus (, any of the prophets, etc.) had appeared on Twilo, how would we know ? Unless someone came here from there, and told us, we wouldn't know. (Hello, Tic-tac!!!) So not knowing the situation on other planets is no indication of what what happened there. And yes, John 10:16 counts as Someone telling us.

As for the question of "Original Sin" there, my understanding is that it is a necessary consequence of free will. If the Twilonians have free will, which I gather they do, then they would also have an Original Sin of some sort. Which means that they would need Saved, and a Savior...

I don't like the way this thought is going. Max as a secular VIP, sure. A member of an alien priesthood, OK. IXTHOS, nonono.

Reggie, I think original sin consists not in having free will in the first place but in using the free will to choose to go on and eat the apple. Adam and Eve might have chosen to act other than they did, which is the point of Lewis's second Perelandra book, called, appropriately enough, "Perelandra." That planet's "Eve" chose differently, and hence no original sin and therefore no incarnation of God for the sins of that world. This is of course Lewis's reading of the theology, but I think it holds true for Christian theology generally.

Max is certainly a type of Christ, but I'm not certain we're to regard him as Twilo's Christ. It sounds like he was more part of the original problem than part of the solution. He may end up its redeemer after all. Of course, choice, free will, and destiny are themes of the show, so we'll see what will happen.

Very confusing. **sigh** This is why I wish they had left this a pleasant metaphor for the Fisher-king, the Messiah, the Hero, and all the other good stuff, and not intruded real-world religion into the subtext. What was an examination of the incarnation of the divine in a human teenager gets a little frelled when said teenager says he doesn't believe in the divine. It makes sense realistically as far as the characterization goes; but it also diminishes the symbolic resonance of the story. Maybe all this will pass after the holiday hoopla is over and things get back to a more sci-fi edge.

On the other hand, the creators are not responsible for my expectations, needs, or beliefs!

Kyle is also changed because Max healed him.
Hmm...

Max is certainly a type of Christ, but I'm not certain we're to regard him as Twilo's Christ. (...)

On the other hand, the creators are not responsible for my expectations, needs, or beliefs!

Mmmhmm. Yes, to follow God's will is one choice. But if you always follow God's will, is it free will? And if you don't always follow God's will, that's sin. It seems that free will, and sin, are inextricably linked. Yet God gives us free will, and doesn't want us to sin. I'm missing something; I don't understand.

I very much dislike the idea of Max being a theological personage. A secular VIP, sure. Think King Arthur. Shucks, think MacArthur! But a demi-god, or more? no.

And TPTB are not responsable for our general expectations, but... they are responsable for the expectations that they have raised. We believe that they have a good plotline going, but it's up to them to make it so. Or loose audience members... but they know that.

Max is certainly a type of Christ, but I'm not certain we're to regard him as Twilo's Christ. (...)

On the other hand, the creators are not responsible for my expectations, needs, or beliefs!

Mmmhmm. Yes, to follow God's will is one choice. But if you always follow God's will, is it free will? And if you don't always follow God's will, that's sin. It seems that free will, and sin, are inextricably linked. Yet God gives us free will, and doesn't want us to sin. I'm missing something; I don't understand.

I very much dislike the idea of Max being a theological personage. A secular VIP, sure. Think King Arthur. Shucks, think MacArthur! But a demi-god, or more? no.

And TPTB are not responsable for our general expectations, but... they are responsable for the expectations that they have raised. We believe that they have a good plotline going, but it's up to them to make it so. Or loose audience members... but they know that.

Max is certainly a type of Christ, but I'm not certain we're to regard him as Twilo's Christ. (...)

On the other hand, the creators are not responsible for my expectations, needs, or beliefs!

Mmmhmm. Yes, to follow God's will is one choice. But if you always follow God's will, is it free will? And if you don't always follow God's will, that's sin. It seems that free will, and sin, are inextricably linked. Yet God gives us free will, and doesn't want us to sin. I'm missing something; I don't understand.

I very much dislike the idea of Max being a theological personage. A secular VIP, sure. Think King Arthur. Shucks, think MacArthur! But a demi-god, or more? no.

And TPTB are not responsable for our general expectations, but... they are responsable for the expectations that they have raised. We believe that they have a good plotline going, but it's up to them to make it so. Or loose audience members... but they know that.