1) ON TIME MACHINES AND DISPOSABLE SPACESHIPS. Has anyone figured out exactly what the Granolith is? After tonight it seems that we are left with a multi-use object that can, with the correct key, be turned into a disposable space ship. (And one that changed shape from the promo to the finale--did you catch that?)

So let's see--WHY were the skins and the enclave at the NT meeting so intent on finding its location? Are we to believe that this is the only transportation left in this part of the galaxy and that everyone wants to go home? Or was everyone trying to prevent our podsters from going home? And if so, then why was K'var so intent on getting them home? I'm sorry folks, this just isn't making a lot of sense. Can you figure it out?

2) TESS THE MANIPULATING...(AHEM). Okay, I've never liked Tess--but that ending left much to be desired. You'd think I'd be a happy camper with her gone...but once again, it doesn't quite rind true to what we seen throughout her narrative appearance. Up until this time we have been told that she can mindwarp but that this power has its limitation (field of influence, time she can sustain the warp, etc.). Now we are being asked to believe that she can keep Alex in a state of almost continual mindwarp while he is in another distant place? This is the same Tess that scrunches up her face in agony to mindwarp someone right in front of her? Give me a break!

True it appeared that her influence (in erasing memories) was beginning to break down there at the end (hence the recovered memories of Kyle and Maria's mom).

And did you notice that there was no hint of Max being "under the influence"? Now, THAT is really disturbing!

3) FLASHES, FLASHES, EVERYWHERE! Tonight's eppy answered a long standing question of why Liz was able to receive flashes. Apparently it depends upon the openness of the kisser! NOW Maria receives flashes because Michael wills her to see him.

And Tess received flashes too...don't want to think too much about that...sigh.

4) SHE CAN'T BE THE KILLER...? In one fell swoop Leanna is exonerated of her supposed alien status. Okay--then what about that file that Alex left? Was that a red herring left by Tess? I'm sorry but that just doesn't seem plausible...it was too well hidden to look like a "plant" -- what do you think?

5) ALEX AND THE MESSAGE TO THE ROYAL FOUR. Remember that scene where Alex was delivering a message to the royal four? Why was he doing that? Who was manipulating him at that point? It doesn't make a lot of sense that it would be Tess does it?

6) NESEDO THE ARCH TRAITOR? According to Tess, Nesedo sold out the podsters ages ago. In exchange for Max's son (who would be recognized by the populace as the legitimate heir--for whom K'var could act as regent) Nesedo cut a deal with K'var. Supposedly, that is...but what would Nesedo get out of this deal? The salvation of Tess? Some reward yet unmentioned?

And was Tess thus playing along ALL of this time?

I don't know folks--the dreamer part of me wants to rejoice. But the logical, rational, SF lover cringes at the way they tied up this season. It was too cliche. Tess was the villian. Nesedo was a villian. It was almost unworthy of our writers.

Well, maybe I'm just too negative about the SF in this eppy...but to me it was shot full of holes. What did you think?

LSS

Tess and Nasedo had a deal with Kivar all along. Tess' purpose the entire time was to get herself pregnant with Max's kid then have the other three killed. Hmm. This was the plan 40 years ago. This has been the plan all along. Tess has always been evil.

Hmm.

What. The. HELL was Future Max ever talking about?

What was ever the point of EOTW? Future Max is a f*cking idiot? Is that what they're trying to tell us? Guess so.

Bullsh*t.

Please, someone... try explaining this sci-fi plot hole that only changes the meaning of the entire series past episode 5 of this season. I'll give you a cookie if you can.

As for Tess and the flashes...I am going out on a limb here...but perhaps Max WANTED her to see that subconciously? Making it clear that Liz STILL holds his heart?

The granolith was dumb. JK has flat out admitted that he had no idea what it was when he thought it up. Bad, bad planning.

Future Max: never knew that Tess was evil I guess. Makes sense. She left town because her ultimate plan with Nasedo couldn't work because Max and Liz married. FM assumed that they were defeated because of the absence of Tess. He was just WRONG. Maybe they were defeated because of the absence of Tess's baby? (Which makes me ill - apologies to those who do not concur, but there it is)

There was a spec circulating that LIZ'S baby would eventually be the savior. Makes for an interesting dynamic if there will be two heirs floating around out there someday.

This is ALL getting VERY Arthurian, which can't be all bad. Er - unless Max comes to the same end as Arthur did. Oh dangit!

just my two bits.

Hi LSS!

I'm glad to see that I wasn't the only one to think, "So, now the all-important granolith is a disposable spaceship?" Plus, it seems very inconsistent with the way the granolith worked in EOTW. In EOTW, Future Max is transported directly to Liz's balcony. He didn't land in a ship, he materialized ala The Terminator. Okay, trying to give the writers credit, lets see...

See if this theory is workable. The key is in how the granolith instruction crystal is programmed. Normally, the granolith only transports whatever is inside the blue cone of light, and can be used over and over. The power of the granolith transports a person or thing, but doesn't move itself. BUT, under special circumstances, the power of the granolith can be used to transport itself to another location, which is what we saw in this episode.

This would clear up a problem I've always had with the fact that the granolith miraculously survived the 1947 crash and didn't fall into the hands of the military. It could have been transported to the pod chamber location in the same way back in 1947, while the shapeshifters and royal eight traveled the "conventional" way, and crashed due to pilot error.

What do you think?

**edited because I really shouldn't be posting at 1:00 Pacific Time

What was ever the point of EOTW? Future Max is a f*cking idiot? Is that what they're trying to tell us? Guess so.

Bullsh*t.

Please, someone... try explaining this sci-fi plot hole that only changes the meaning of the entire series past episode 5 of this season. I'll give you a cookie if you can.

[/B]

My take on the whole future Max thing is that in the alternate time line Tess left before the pod squad had a chance to find out that her intentions were less than good. That's what needed to be brought to light. Pushing Max and Tess together, while it was painful and had some pretty messy results, it may have been a necessary evil. This way Max did find out what Tess was planing and what lengths she was willing to go to. We don’t know what happened with Tess in the other time line except that she left. My guess would be that she went straight to the enemy to fulfill her end of the deal as best she could and exact revenge on her ‘family’ who spited her. That means she could have given them information including the location of the Granolith, the podsters weaknesses, even the strengths in their individual powers. Anyway, what I’m getting at here is that, IMO, what needed to happen to protect that future from happening has already happened.

There is the ‘our powers work together’ thing, but there are many possible solutions to this. There’s Ava, the possibility that Kyle and Liz could develop powers like Tess’, or that that was also a limited time deal. What if the battle they needed her powers for has already taken place? Sometimes its one tiny mistake years ahead of time that ultimately brings down the war.

quote:Originally posted by LSS:
5) ALEX AND THE MESSAGE TO THE ROYAL FOUR. Remember that scene where Alex was delivering a message to the royal four? Why was he doing that? Who was manipulating him at that point? It doesn't make a lot of sense that it would be Tess does it?

My assumption on that was he was reciting one of the few things he had left in his head. He had spent so long studying it that it was imprinted on him brain, so to speak. I don’t think he was acting as a messenger.

Sweet Roswellian Dreams
Lizzybell
_____________________
Loner
I’m just happy to be nominated. -Kyle
Go read Secrets in the Past. Now!

FMax told Liz that the evil aliens invaded Earth and killed a bunch of people, blah blah, and they couldn't defeat them because they didn't have Tess. However, Tess wouldn't have fought for them anyway, because she was really on their side. And, they wouldn't be killing Max if they still needed him to get Tess pregnant.

All it proves is that EOTW didn't have to happen. When that episode was written, they had no damn clue what they were going to do the rest of the season. That's just awful television to break up a couple like that so deliberately and so cheaply. Whatever. Point proven, hopefully.

Anyway, I concur with people who are saying that EOTW happened because FMax didn't know that Tess wouldn't have been on his side anyway.

The Granolith -- Didn't FMax say they had modified it somehow, or were somehow using it differently from it's normal purpose in order to do time travel? So even though they don't show us *how* it must be modified, it's still possible to use it as either a disposable spaceship or time machine.

Max being mindwarped -- Ok, so his overbearing reactions were his own. But it's still possible that Tess was manufacturing the Antarian memories he had of her. Or some of them, at least. She was under pressure to produce a child, and in order to do that, she needed Max to sleep with her, and it wasn't going to happen until he thought he loved her. So she could have implanted just a few of those memories (first kiss, etc), and then let him react normally.

As for Alex -- I think he might have been reciting his translation, but he was still under mindwarp so that's why he acted so strangely.

What I'm wondering is why the Mindwarpees tapped their fingers. What does that signify in terms of their mental state?

And why did Kyle start to see Alex when he looked in the mirror?

More later

what was said about future max being unavailable for tess's plotting makes sense.

and despite the scifi inconsistancies part of what is so much fun about imagined technology is that there are unknown aspects to how it functions? and a truly alien technology might involve more then a few mysteries that the t.v. format doesn't allow time to peruse?

i've thought of the granolith as something of a 'swiss army knife' with multiple functions. perhaps it also represents the idea or tradition of power on the home world therefor obtaining it might legitimize an individual or group?

i think that tess was probably indocrinated by nasedo from the get go....perhaps she had some degree of ambivalence about the situation and the relationships but the brief time she had living with the podsters and humans couldn't really make a dent in nasedo's influence?

about her mindwarping skills: given how the story has played out i'd expect that she wouldn't be honest about the degree of skills or training she had by nasedo? tess's whole relationship with max was based on manipulation so it's almost a given that continued use of her 'powers' to enhance this will be an issue to contend with in season 3? and i wouldn't expect the character of max to be very comfortable with addressing this...

i wonder if k'var and the skins are another opposing faction, or an alliance of necessity rather then choice? and nasedo might have been philosophically inclined to allign with k'var?

some other thoughts about the departure......ultimately the core of the story seems to be that of the flawed/damaged heroes who struggle to come to terms with their situation, destiny (different from fate) and build a life of possibilities along the way. and it's also about forgiveness and redemption. although some are lost and some are beyond redemption there is still the potential for hope. there are numerious examples of this theme/archetype in the odyssey, hamlet, the wizard of earthsea, etc....

these are traumatized 'teenagers' who are in a situation that is so far beyond the norm that i would expect them to be confused, ambivalent, and even find themselves doing/saying things they end up regretting. the podsters have to struggle with two sets of lives regardless of how much they recall. the humans own lives 'before vs. after' their knowledge of the podsters replicates this experience of alienation.

i'm really looking forward to season 3. it will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

jenlev

LSS: With regard to the Granolith, I've read a dozen good stories that had mutable tools in them. Larry Niven, James White, David Brin have all written about the theme...though they never got into time machines and space ships with their flights of fancy. One thing though. Did F-Max and F-Liz KNOW how that thing worked? Did it work the same way when functioning as a time machine as it did functioning as a space ship? If it did...and they knew....then it makes their sacrifice all the more poignant. Because F-Liz remained in the chamber post-activation. Which means that she was most probably very very dead before F-Max departed for the past.

As for Nacedo, this requires some serious thought to string out the logic of it. Foir one thing, who killed him? And why? Was Tess lying? Was the deal hers entirely? Was Nacedo dealing only for himself and using Tess and the hoped for royal heir as a commodity?

From K'var's standpoint, he already has what he wants. Anything extra is appreciated, but not required. If Nacedo can deliver, fine. Throw him a bone by letting him live and put the kid on the throne as a puppet. But, in the best Byzantine tradition of not letting the left hand know what the right hand is doing, keep the skins working to hunt the lot of them down and kill them.

Another possibilty as that when things went to hell with the mission, Nacedo went rogue and was in hiding from the other "keeper" as well.

As for Tess' mindwarp power, she had limitations. But in every other story I've read involving such things you could surpass those limitations provided you were willing to take certain risks. Either to yourself or your subject. In this case she didn't give a damn and went at Alex's cerebrum with a meat ax. It got the job done, but from what I saw the damage caused was extensive.

Kate6058 Why was F-Max stupid? For not knowing about Tess? You heard him. When she couldn't get between F-Liz and F-Max, she left town. That matches the profile of the Tess I saw last night. I also believe that it's possible that, in that benighted future and unbeknowst to F-Max, she was helping the bad guys.

Hi Kath7!

Granted that...but once introduced he could have aimed for a bit more consistancy in its development.

BTW--liked your spin on the T/M "flash"--that he was intentionally willing her to see that. Sigh. It would be nice--of course the "intent" might have been subconcious too proving Max had some reservations about Tess.

quote:Future Max: never knew that Tess was evil I guess. Makes sense. She left town because her ultimate plan with Nasedo couldn't work because Max and Liz married. FM assumed that they were defeated because of the absence of Tess. He was just WRONG. Maybe they were defeated because of the absence of Tess's baby? (Which makes me ill - apologies to those who do not concur, but there it is)

Painting Tess in such villianous colors really bothers me. Keep in mind now that I am NOT a pro-Tess person at all (in fact, I staunchly protested her introduction to our plot on the spoiler board way back in the middle of Season One). Still--our writers have carefully nutured her characterization this season making her more human--and at times a possible love interest for Kyle (a lot of humourous moments there). Certainly Tess never looked as if she was "in control" or working out some great master plan of trickery (other than Destiny/Max...and even that was muted in Season 2). To do what she did in the finale would mean that she betrayed Max as well. She would have had to known that turning Max over to K'var spelled Max's ultimate destruction...why need the king when you have the heir?

And Nesedo--remember how he died in Max's arms? Remember what appeared to be his loyalty to the Royal Four? His pride in Max when Max took control.

The finale makes it appear that the whole reason for making the hybrids was to get an heir that K'var could mold to his own agenda...or at least that K'var knew and took advantage of the whole plan. Remember that the scheme is 40 years old according to Tess.

LSS

BT quote:Originally posted by Kzinti_Killer:
[b]LSS: With regard to the Granolith, I've read a dozen good stories that had mutable tools in them. Larry Niven, James White, David Brin have all written about the theme...though they never got into time machines and space ships with their flights of fancy. One thing though. Did F-Max and F-Liz KNOW how that thing worked? Did it work the same way when functioning as a time machine as it did functioning as a space ship? If it did...and they knew....then it makes their sacrifice all the more poignant. Because F-Liz remained in the chamber post-activation. Which means that she was most probably very very dead before F-Max departed for the past. [/B]

You are right--there is nothing inherently bothersome about multifunctional devices in themselves. But one got the impression that the mystery of its function was not intentional--that you found out about the time that the writers did!

And I did not like was the idea that it could only be used once.

Prior to this it had been used to transport Max through time (though it was made to do this--and not a part of its original function) and apparently this did not alter its intended use (travel through space). In the advanced society from which Max came--why construct such a flimsy craft?

Some interesting observations KK!

LSS

Okay folks, was I the only one who thought Max & gang had revived an enemy when they brought Nasedo back with the healing stones?

I will post more on time/space travel & the Granolith later, but I think the key is in FM saying they had modified it. Think stock cars.

And there was that interview where someone said they wanted Tess to go away and JK said, "Where would she go?"
So Ava's still on earth.

I think Leanna is not Leanna because she's Serena.

I'm not sure how I felt about the finale yet, but I have one question that maybe you guys can help me with.

Who are the evil aliens? Were the skins evil aliens? Because if they were then why did they kill Nasedo if he was in fact in league with the evil aliens?

Thanks,

Julie

quote:See if this theory is workable. The key is in how the granolith instruction crystal is programmed. Normally, the granolith only transports whatever is inside the blue cone of light, and can be used over and over. The power of the granolith transports a person or thing, but doesn't move itself. BUT, under special circumstances, the power of the granolith can be used to transport itself to another location, which is what we saw in this episode.

This would clear up a problem I've always had with the fact that the granolith miraculously survived the 1947 crash and didn't fall into the hands of the military. It could have been transported to the pod chamber location in the same way back in 1947, while the shapeshifters and royal eight traveled the "conventional" way, and crashed due to pilot error.

What do you think?

I think that you have done a great job of making what we saw plausible. Well done!

LSS

Once she went home she could tell Khivar that they had caught on to her plan and safe herself and the unborn while keeping Max alive as well??

Quick question. Some posters seem to be confused by WHAT Alex was reciting. It was the Mom-O-Gram, not some of the deciphered Destiny Book text? If Alex is reciting some of the Mom-O-Gram, remembering he wasn't in the chamber, then that makes me believe that the Mom-O-Gram was contrived. Once again, they've brought up more questions than answers!

quote:Originally posted by JAH:
Who are the evil aliens? Were the skins evil aliens? Because if they were then why did they kill Nasedo if he was in fact in league with the evil aliens?

Keeping in mind that "evil" is a relative term in this context...

***we know that the skins were both against our podsters and for our podsters. That is--they were against Max and a minority were pro-Michael. Since Max was depicted as a less than kind leader, I am hesitant in labeling them "evil." It is safe to say, however, that they were not "friends" of our podsters.

***K'var and company certainly are anti-podsters (with the exception, perhaps, of Izzy, K'var's alledged former love interest). But again--were they evil? Sometimes rebellions are well founded. I just have to know more abour King Max then I presently know to make that call.

***at least some (if not the majority) of the skins were working with/sympathetic to K'var (remember the Congresswoman's words to Izzy).

Perhaps instead of "evil" you should think of political factions divided along interest/racial/?????? lines.

As far as Nesedo is concerned, either:

***the skins and Nesedo represent two different factions (the "people" /skins; royal court/Nesedo), or

***Tess intentionally is lying about the plan/Nesedo, or

***Tess herself is under the influence of some outside party and thinks she is telling the truth.

Take your pick!

BTW--I keep waiting to hear from the pro-Max supporters. Surely there is an underground resistence movement out there somewhere (thinking Earth Final Conflict here!)

LSS

Once she went home she could tell Khivar that they had caught on to her plan and safe herself and the unborn while keeping Max alive as well??

Hi Maturefan!

Hmmmm--your theory has merit. Tess looked VERY conflicted in this eppy. The thing is, however, I am not sure whether the actress was supposed to be telegraphing annoyance or conflict. If the latter, then your theory gains strength.

LSS

i think that tess was probably indocrinated by nasedo from the get go....perhaps she had some degree of ambivalence about the situation and the relationships but the brief time she had living with the podsters and humans couldn't really make a dent in nasedo's influence?

about her mindwarping skills: given how the story has played out i'd expect that she wouldn't be honest about the degree of skills or training she had by nasedo? tess's whole relationship with max was based on manipulation so it's almost a given that continued use of her 'powers' to enhance this will be an issue to contend with in season 3? and i wouldn't expect the character of max to be very comfortable with addressing this...

jenlev

I haven't posted in quite some time but due to all the comments re: Departure I felt inclined to add my two cents.

jenlev you are quite correct in your assumptions re: the granolith. I cannot remember the episode but it was revealed that the granolith not only held tremendous power but it was also an important religious icon ( I think it was in Max in the City)

As far as Tess goes, I think it is obvious that having been raised by Nasedo she would also hold to his beliefs and convictions.

Her mindwarping powers...and here I do see a ray of hope for Max and Liz and the whole sex thing/baby thing. Knowing that you have been found out, exposed as a murderer, would you also expose the truth that there is no child when the existance of that child would save your life. Max could still be a victim of a mindwarp. Who knows exactly what Tess's plan is or was. It was Nasedo's agreement with Kivar but look who is delivering that bit of info....not the world's most reliable source. I think that what the viewers have been left with is a classic cliffhanger. This is quite normal in television. I for one plan on watching next season to see what developes next.

Ninka

Did anyone else see:
podchamber/circle/symbol/lights/transportation

and think....

Stargate?

LSS

I won`t go over the numerous plot holes your post does that.

The writers apparently didn`t know what to do or where to go with the royal storyline the katims "on the fly style" painted them in a corner so we get a jarring nonsensical finale so they can pull in essence a "bobby ewing" to erase the royal four premise.

I`m sorry I am grateful to jk BUT this on the fly style DOESN`T work with Sci-Fi there is just so much ?huh? bad sci-fi a show can take..consistency...consistency needed.

I guess this means M/Mi/I are now trapped on earth with the granolith gone not that any of them really wanted to go home anyway.

Guess how many eps it will be until we don`t hear about mom/pod people again or larreck shows up to tell max peace has been declared... music L/M staring contest music... max can stay his son is king....oops sorry for giving away the series finale.

UPN said it did want to attract young female viewers maybe part of the renewel was a return to the teen soap opera forget about the sci-fi season even if it was pretty bad sci-fi wise the fans will accept anything meeting.

Hold on to your hats Sci-Fi fans enjoy the crumbs the teen angst and teen romance is about to go into overdrive..ROSWELL CREEK anyone?

ps.Well atleast we can have fun laughing at the gaping sci-fi holes of season 3

I haven't read a post yet where anyone questions what actually happened to Alex. We know that Tess MWed him, gave him the DB and sent him away to Las Cruces for two months in order to decipher the book. Wouldn't Tess have to know Leanna to plant false memories of her within Alex? But months later Tess is pressuring Max to decode the DB but we know that Alex emailed the text to Leanna last year! WHAT did Tess accomplish???? There's no way she could have forseen that Liz/Maria/Michael would discover the deciphered text! What do you bet the writers have "tied up" Alex's death in their minds. Tess MWed him into decoding the book but then accidentally killed him. End of story! Please, please let season 3 deal with Leanna-Jennifer Coleman!

Raven

With regard to Tess's powers. I think that we should remember that all of the podster got stronger this season. Michael now has tremendous control that was nonexistant in season one. Max can do some neat tricks also that he wasn't able to do before. It makes sense to me that Tess would be getting stronger too. As for her hiding the strength of her powers, I don't think that should surprise anyone. We were lulled into a false sense of security right along with the podsters.

You said flimsy? Buy that you mean the "one shot" nature of it? I didn't have an issue with it.

Material Editted In: Think of it this way. It was a one shot deal...this time. For their use only. It was meant to be their ticket home, with no way back. It was programmed that way. Which says nothing about reprogramming once it gets to where ever it's going.

Presumably the thing was buried here in advance of "mom's" operation...or was a branch of the same op that worked, while the ship with the kids went down. What does it need to do? Provide power to the pod chamber, presumably screen it from detection by hostiles, and give the kids a lift home when they're ready. That's the basics. The fact that it could also work as a time machine suggests that there may be other functions. Speaking for myself, I'd view mom's expedition as analogous to the old wagon trip into the wilderness. If a homesteader didn't bring it, he didn't have it. In the mission planner's shoes I'd want the most I could get with the least fuss. Viola! The Granolith. The Swiss Army Knife of machines. Many functions in one...rather than one machine for each function.

Shapeshifter Hola! Did I miss something? Something hosed with your account?

Anyway, I was troubled by Nacedo from the start. His killing spree, for which I could see no discernable reason beyond simple sadism. His interfence at the wrong times...or lack thereof at the right times. I almost think that his screwing around with the Special Section was meant to kill Max in the hopes of making the others more malleable to his control. After all he could always drag Tess to New York and slip her into the sack with Zan.

Yep, I thought he was bad news the first time he opened his possibly conniving mouth.

I totally agree. It's completely possible for Max to be manipulated without being mindwarped. If he had false memories from the "retrieval" sessions, plus Tess lying to him, I could see his reactions as plausible. Not nice, not the way we wish he would react, but plausible. Season 2 Max is a hurting, damaged person. Remember what he said to Brody in OTM?Brody asks "What are we doing here?" Max answers, "Surviving."

do you know whats sad, i was still hoping that Alex was alive maybe he is, and tess handed over his body to Nicholas and planted a fake, But now I'm not so sure Alex is really gone and all because of and her misson

justsmile

Is it possible that "Future Max" was all a mindwarp job that Tess did on Liz? That would be an ideal way for Tess to get Liz out of the way. We know that she can do long-distance mindwarping (from outside the carbon dating machine at the beginning of this season). Otherwise, Tess is now gone...their planet and ours would now be doomed of Future Max's predictions came true.

Why would Tess have to mindwarp Alex in the first place. Haven't all the humans shown a willingness to help them find out whatever they need?

If Tess did all this stuff as a setup, why did she set that bomb to go off when they found the info in the dorm room. If the idea was for them to find it, why risk killing them?

Was all of Max's useless behavior this season due to Tess' mindwarping?

Is this OUR Tess or the dupe?

Knowing that they would be returning to a planet at war, why are they willing to rush back to the home planet without any kind of a game plan? Keeping religious attitudes out of it, if it was so easy for Tess to get pregnant, would it have been better to take a risk with this baby rather than risk all of their lives (baby included)now? We don't know the genetic pattern of this human-alien hybrid. Do aliens have the same number and matchup of chromosomes as humans that they can pair up? The developers of the pods obviously had enough knowledge to develop our aliens with the key matchups...if a baby hybrid has gene matchups (homozygous or heterozygous inheritance of alien traits)that make life on Earth impossible for it, how do we know that there wouldn't be similar inheritance patterns of some human genes that would make life impossible on THEIR planet?

If Nasedo had a deal with the skins, that could explain how he could have sex with Whittaker and not say anything about it. But, why was he killed? Did he reneg on a deal? Why would he warn them of the skins if he was on the skins' side? Was the "mom-o-gram" that they saw at the end of season one a setup by Nasedo? Do we REALLY know what is going on on the home planet?

Is the Granolith a multi-use machine? How was the entire group of skins planning on going back in that small machine if it could only be used once?

Any ideas?

Hi kpm!

In theory you are right. But let's look at the dramatic visual presentation of mindwarping over the past two seasons...

The invasive use of alien powers (i.e. healing, mindwarping) is depicted as causing strain/pain to the alien involved (think of the facial expression of Max when healing and Tess when mindwarping and erasing memories. (The only exception to this is Izzy's dreamwalking.)

Max and Tess' expressions relax only when they are "finished." How could Tess maintain a mindwarp and go about her regular activities? Yes--I know that their powers have increased...but her facial reactions HAVE NOT CHANGED...thus the audience is lead to believe that this power remains as draining as it has always been.

Mindwarping is different from memory erasure/placement. The latter has longer lasting effects than the former...and apparently tends to break down after a certain period. Mindwarping (at least as it has been presented thus far) has terminus points that are very limited. To throw a mind-warping Tess at the audience who is able to sustain this influence over long periods of time and distance and not "show" it stretches the imagination a bit too thin for me.

LSS

What if Nasedo's intentions were originally good--i.e., he was originally going to fulfill his job of protecting Max, Isabel, and Michael (and Tess?)--but then he became the alien who was captured and tortured by the FBI special unit? Maybe this made him so desperate that he cut a deal with K'var to get back home? Maybe Congresswoman Whittaker didn't realize that he had switched to her side when she killed him? I don't know... that theory leaves holes too.

I also can't shake the feeling that Tess was admiring CW's picture during "The Harvest." At that point, I thought that maybe Nasedo had produced the baby with CW (from one of the scratched out parts of her diary, it sounds as though she had a love affair not long after her arrival on earth). Maybe Tess *was* their baby & CW disagreed with the deal that Nasedo had set up for her? I'm so confused!!

However, I will say that I loved "The Departure." Also, I can see why the baby would be real. Otherwise, plot-wise, why would the Pod Squad have any desire to keep up connections with their other home planet? I think that Tess really wanted Max to love her & that she might have found a way to save him back on Antar if he had shown any real interest in her. Okay, sorry for the ramble.

As for the Granolith....I say good riddance. What a terrible plot device. I think JK knew it too, so he had to write it in as a "one-use" device just so he wouldn't have to use it again. IMO timemachines, spacecraft and alien gizmos that block powers and merge timezones are just too gimmicky for the Roswell universe. Let's get back to the good old days of Native American folklore.

Tess and Nasedo: I honestly don't know how the deal works into the timeline. If the deal was made 40 yrs ago, then it was made while on earth---before the podsters even hatched. Did Nasedo change his mind about being their protector? Was he the real protector? And as much as I dislike Tess, I don't think she was putting on a charade all this time. I think it is more likely that someone approached her along the way of the series and informed her of Nasedo's promise.

Oh well, it's over for now. At least JK has a clean slate to work with for next season. According to an article I read, he is not very fond of season long story arcs, so expect to see more self-contained episodes that will endure less scrutiny. If he wants to bring Tess(or Ava) back, he can do it with a brand new take on her character. The group is smaller now, so maybe he could find a new angle on that too.

cya

Scooby

See if this theory is workable. The key is in how the granolith instruction crystal is programmed. Normally, the granolith only transports whatever is inside the blue cone of light, and can be used over and over. The power of the granolith transports a person or thing, but doesn't move itself. BUT, under special circumstances, the power of the granolith can be used to transport itself to another location, which is what we saw in this episode.

This would clear up a problem I've always had with the fact that the granolith miraculously survived the 1947 crash and didn't fall into the hands of the military. It could have been transported to the pod chamber location in the same way back in 1947, while the shapeshifters and royal eight traveled the "conventional" way, and crashed due to pilot error.

What do you think?

Here's a thought on the Granolith thing...
now they use it to transport back to the homeworld...but obviously they don't want to leave it behind, lest it fall into human hands or even the hands of the Skins still roaming Earth. So it makes sense for the Granolith to be programmed to turn into a ship and depart back for the home planet.

But of course like someone else posted JK lost sight of WHAT the granolith was and the writers have yet to extricate themselves from the enormous plot holes that strew the Roswell landscape.

I think FM was real, not a mindwarp. I just think in his timeline Tess left because she realized she couldn't complete her part of the deal. Maybe the aliens came down then to kill the Royals since they weren't going to be delivered.

Is it possible that Tess and Ava were switched around after leaving the pods by Nacedo? Tess seems ruthless- she'll doing anything to get home- like Lonnie and Rath. Ava seems more like the NM pod squad.

I don't think Tess wanted to kill Alex, she just needed him in this mindwarped stage to translate the book and his mind couldn't take anymore. I don't know why he needed to be in a mind warp to do it.

The whole Leanna is not Leanna thing I think was really planted by Alex, not some kind of red flag by Tess, to say that he never went Sweden. Maybe Alex left the notebook in there, thinking he'd return, and Tess left it there too so 'Michael' would find it and they'd go home.

Just throwing out some more ideas...

-Shannon

1) ON TIME MACHINES AND DISPOSABLE SPACESHIPS -I always thought that the granolith was a mode of transportation and/or an extreme source of power, hence so many factions fighting for it. However, as the bic of interplanetary travel, I think that JK and Co are just admitting that they hadn’t a clue and just wanted to get it out of the way for next season. To bad the discovery of its powers and the future use of it opened so many possibilities.

2) TESS THE MANIPULATING %@^$%- If Tess had a hidden agenda, she wouldn’t let anyone know the full strength of her powers. But I can’t figure out why she didn’t start mindwarping other members of the scooby-gang (not just Alex) first for help and then to deter the investigation. She just played the dying baby card while L/M/K got closer and closer to the truth. Maybe, she was so busy warping Max that it ultimately sapped her strength and either the jeep scene or the realization that the aliens might have indirectly been responsible for Alex’s death was the wakeup for the boy-king but then, maybe not.

While I never took to Tess, having her become such a villain so fast and so late in the plot makes me think “plot scapegoat”

3) FLASHES, FLASHES, EVERYWHERE- I posted on another board about this. I’m happy for M/M. However, the one thing that really annoyed me the most last night was the flashes. The flashes always, to me, were a sign of how deep a relationship Max and Liz had - that they were soulmates. Now, the flashes just seem like a alien party trick. Hell, if you go by the flashes, I guess that Nicholas is Max’s soulmate because he got flashes from Max in Wipeout. And did anyone else notice that during Max/Liz’s Jeep kiss, THEIR LAST ON EARTH, there were NO FLASHES?

A big yeah for the Freudian flash between Max and Tess!

4) SHE CAN'T BE THE KILLER - Jury still out on that one - she has to be someone (Serena?). And what ever happened to her half of the alien translation? Oh, my bad, I forgot about the BSB in Destiny....

6) NESEDO THE ARCH TRAITOR- If the plan was 40 years old, what the h#ll happened in 1964 to make Nasedo give up his protector status? And this was even before the pods hatched! How did he know that he didn’t have the leaky/damaged pod from SO47? And then, why in Season One, did Nasedo try so hard to protect them (even warning them of danger on his death bed) - only to keep them alive to get them home for them to be killed? Was his dedication to Tess so much stronger than his loyalties to the Royal Four? Also, in a coup, at least using the Caesars as an example, don’t you take out the family of the rulers? Wouldn’t that also make Tess expendable once she delivered the baby, if in fact, K’hvar wanted to be the heir’s regent?

EOTW BIG NAG - Future Max said the future was changed; obviously he didn’t know that his “precise”, “surgical” changes could wreck such havoc. After everything in EOTW, they still do not have T*** on their side when the final conflict comes.

Someone mentioned this, I’m sorry I missed you name but as to whether FM was a mindwarp, I don’t think so because he was physically dancing with Liz while Tess was with Max in the park. She didn’t seem to be able to control two people at once as is evidenced by Kyle and Alex in the bedroom and I don’t believe that she ever created an entity with her talent just controlled a situation.

Kzinti_Killer! As to if F-max and F-Liz knew how the granolith thing worked, didn’t a puzzled FM say that they needed Serena to alter the Granolith? So they probably didn’t know much about the device. FM wasn’t even sure that he was going to appear where he needed to be.

Finally... I’m still holding out for a mindwarped ( my poor dreamer heart!) but the lack of digit drumming is really disturbing (although it did take awhile for the symptom to manifest itself). Also, if an extensive period of mindwarping made Alex’s mind oatmeal, what could it have done to a hybrid’s?

Any help would be appreciated...Later

quote:Originally posted by LSS:
I have to say that I am greatly disturbed by the way they "tied up" some of the SF ends tonight.
I don't know folks--the dreamer part of me wants to rejoice.

I admire your unwavering faith, mine-once the kind that could have had me commited-is suffering from a severe mind-warp that I'd like to call season2.
The sex between Max&Tess appears real after all and HE now has a son on another planet - and we thought Max and Liz had obstacles before I wish I could have been so quick to rejoice - my dreamer heart went into cardiac arrest.

quote:[/B]
But the logical, rational, SF lover cringes at the way they tied up this season. It was too cliche.
[/B]

SF on Roswell seems to have become an umbrella for the absolute ridiculous! If the creative team behind the SF have been consistent about one thing this season it would have to be their blatant inconsistancy.

I loved Jason Katim's and what he gave us ie. Max&Liz - unfortuneately for us with SF being the main course this year we learned it is not his forte - recall skin&bones really now.....

quote:
Tess was the villian. Nesedo was a villian. It was almost unworthy of our writers.

I disagree, with the exception of Mr. Moore and some good non SF stuff provided by JK Departure seems to have lived up to the pattern we've been very cordially putting up with all year....definitely worthy of the writing I've been exposed to...?!

quote:
Well, maybe I'm just too negative about the SF in this eppy...but to me it was shot full of holes. What did you think?

Your not being negative - you're just being HONEST - no one should be condemned for telling the truth.
OH how right you are about the SF - I've given up trying @ this point - if the writing staff are so quick and ready to make changes/revelations without considering how things 'fit' than I'm not going to lose hair over it....

SO lastly a Ques: SF'er's - Max has to save his son?!! (good grief) as we are told 2 hybrids capable of living on earth are UNABLE to produce a child that can??? I am sure theories abound on this BUT are we expected to believe that Max can raise him on earth? via ziploc bag maybe?

We lost some of the posts during the down time yesterday--when I get into the office I'll try to go back and reconstruct some of my posts (that dialogued with your posts).

BTW--did any of you catch the fact that now we have the possibility of a human/hybrid baby (assuming that Michael did not practic "safe" sex? Or that even if he did, normal methods of birth control may not "control" alien sperm!)?

LSS

You are right in noting that the two themes (sought after item / one use ship) seem to be at odds with each other--especially since it was not made clear to the audience how the two were connected (i.e. prevention of the aliens' return; use of the vehicle for the seekers' return, etc.).

quote:While I never took to Tess, having her become such a villain so fast and so late in the plot makes me think “plot scapegoat” [/B

Yeah--and such a predictable one too!

quote: [b]3) FLASHES, FLASHES, EVERYWHERE- I posted on another board about this. I’m happy for M/M. However, the one thing that really annoyed me the most last night was the flashes. The flashes always, to me, were a sign of how deep a relationship Max and Liz had - that they were soulmates. Now, the flashes just seem like a alien party trick. Hell, if you go by the flashes, I guess that Nicholas is Max’s soulmate because he got flashes from Max in Wipeout. And did anyone else notice that during Max/Liz’s Jeep kiss, THEIR LAST ON EARTH, there were NO FLASHES?

True. Sigh--in this the spoilers were wrong weren't they? And it bothers me that we have lost the "soulmate" motif in Season 2 as well.

quote:6) NESEDO THE ARCH TRAITOR- If the plan was 40 years old, what the h#ll happened in 1964 to make Nasedo give up his protector status? And this was even before the pods hatched! How did he know that he didn’t have the leaky/damaged pod from SO47? And then, why in Season One, did Nasedo try so hard to protect them (even warning them of danger on his death bed) - only to keep them alive to get them home for them to be killed? Was his dedication to Tess so much stronger than his loyalties to the Royal Four? Also, in a coup, at least using the Caesars as an example, don’t you take out the family of the rulers? Wouldn’t that also make Tess expendable once she delivered the baby, if in fact, K’hvar wanted to be the heir’s regent?

Nice catch about the time period.

Look...either Tess is correct about Nesedo, or she is lying, or she is herself being manipulated.

You know...I hope it is the last of the above options. That at least would give us some dramatic texture here and remove this whole eppy from the realm of tired cliche.

LSS

Maybe this is just wishful thinking on my part, but... I also agree with some people who believe that Liz is the true Queen, or should be and that Michael's foremost job as second in command, would be to protect the Queen, at all costs. This would explain his need to help Maria and Liz in their search for Alex's killer, and it would also explain why he suddenly seemed to realize that he couldn't leave earth. And/or, what made him suddenly decide that, just when Maria and Liz are yelling outside. Which one of them did he get a subliminal message from that told him he had to leave at that moment. Just seemed too coincidental to me. Then again, maybe he just realized that he had to make up his mind before it was too late.

Guess this is what we wanted Season 3 for...

So let's see--WHY were the skins and the enclave at the NT meeting so intent on finding its location? Are we to believe that this is the only transportation left in this part of the galaxy and that everyone wants to go home? Or was everyone trying to prevent our podsters from going home? And if so, then why was K'var so intent on getting them home? I'm sorry folks, this just isn't making a lot of sense. Can you figure it out?

I'm thinking of taking a ff break, so I can enjoy my Max-and-Liz-reunion buzz for a while.

But, before I go, I thought I'd try tackling this one.

My theory has long been that the PSAWNians have inherited someone else's technology. It would explain a lot of things, like how they couldn't land their spaceship successfully on a planet with not all that much gravity, as gravitational pulls go, for example.

At the very least, that could be true of *the* Granolith. Everyone keeps using the definite article when referring to it, which indicates that there's only one. Perhaps the Mom-o-Gram's people stole it to take to Earth not only to provide transportation home for the Royal 4, but also to keep it from K'Var's people, to prevent them analyzing it and making more.

And K'Var sent the Skins after it because at that point, all they could do was deploy it for a return journey, but at the very least, they could keep the Royal 4 stranded on Earth and unable to return to PSAWN.

That would also explain why Tess didn't just turn it over to Nicholas. They both wanted to use it to return home, but since she hadn't successfully seduced Max yet, she couldn't leave yet, but the Skins couldn't wait that long?

I also have a theory about the mirror. Perhaps when Tess made Kyle forget about Alex, she made him forget seeing Alex, but failed to take that big mirror into account. The mirror was pretty big, so perhaps from wherever Kyle was in the room, he could see Alex's reflection in that mirror. So the memory of Alex's reflection stayed in Kyle's subconscious, and eventually worked its way back to the surface.

What can I say? I've been a DS fan since 1996, so I have five years' experience in patching up plot holes.

I had the same thought, but partly because I was looking for some rational explanation to why the Vilandra arc was introduced and not just to give KH some rockin' scenes to work with.

I was not nearly as critical of this ep as some of you -- in fact I thought it was one of the best of the season. It did tie up a few loose ends neatly, such as why Maria never got flashes and the truth about Liz and Kyle's non-nookie. Yes, the issue of the kissing flashes may be disappointing to some viewers because it seems to lessen the Max & Liz bond, but frankly, if your soulmate status is evidenced by lipsmacking, what kind of bond is that?

LSS, you naughty thing. Recall when Max first told Michael about him and Tess having hot alien sex (heh), Michael commented that Max wouldn't be so stupid as to not concern himself with preventing pregnancy. I feel fairly certain that, based on that conversation, Mikey G is not going to be dispatching his soldiers into battle unprotected.

Another nagging question I felt was answered is that Tess in fact did wipe Sean's memory of being held hostage. I thought the finger tapping proved that, reassuring me that Sean is not in fact in the know at this point.

Another board brought up the fact that being pregnant does sap the resources and energies of the mother. Perhaps Tess' ability to keep Sean, Amy, Kyle, and god knows who else in a state of warp was being weakened because of the bun in the oven.

On to Max. I didn't necessarily feel that Max was being warped. Why should she have to do that, when she could accomplish her goals with garden-variety manipulation and eyelash batting? "You love me, really, you do. See that wobbling star?" Puh. I could see through her like used Neutrogena. Clearly Max was not mindwarped when he got the vision of himself and Liz in Las Vegas. The FutureMax explanation put forth by Kath7 and others seems plausible; that they knew there would be chaos if Tess were to be out of the picture, but the truth of the situation was not apparent. And now that Tess is in fact gone for the moment, we may still see some of what FM mentioned come to pass. But aside from Tess planting a few visions to suit her ends, it sure didn't seem necessary for her to pull off an exhausting mindwarp. Listen, he's Max. he wants to believe there's a plan. (You've got to have a plan...just not the Destiny plan.) He wants to believe he's got a higher purpose, that his stewardship of his podmates extends to some greater world. I feel him; I do.

The Granolith, the stepping stone...its significance is definitively its mystery. To the skins it was a way to save their, well, skins. To the summit attendees it was proof of the New Mexico squad's birthright. To FL and FM, it was tweakable for use as a time machine. In the present world, it's a means to get home. It stands to reason that a great symbolic importance (deserved or mythologized) would be laid on such a versatile bit of technology. As for it's one-time use, LSS, don't forget that it's still a time travelling device when used with the right software. PepperjackCandy, you reminded me that until the NY summit, no one was certain about the location of the Granolith. I seem to recall that K'var had been convincing his subjects that it was within his control (or maybe I'm confusing events in the show with speculation on the boards).

Those skins. There's no way of knowing whether Nacedo and the skins were even close to being on the same side of things (despite a primary rule in politics, the enemy of thine enemy is thy friend). If the skins were trying to kill the royal four, Nacedo had to fight them or else his plan was sure to fail -- no teens, no royal heir, no ticket home to the hands of K'var. Nacedo was always a riddle wrapped in a conundrum, so much so that others hypothesized there were two of him. Not saying there aren't, because there are certainly enough idiosyncrasies in that character to warrant a more satisfying explanation (but isn't that the way with everything). Why would he juice a deal in 1961 or thereabouts before the hatchlings were even born? Did he just make off with the Tess pod to keep her separated before the hatching, thereby making Max's memory of her still cooking in the pod chamber when the others were born false? This so-called deal is still a hole I'd like to have plugged. Dunraven, I'm sorry, but how did you get 1964?

Ravenna brought up the continuing Alex mystery. Leanna is not Leanna because she's Jennifer Coleman. Here's my take (because you all care, I know): Alex/Ray wasn't all work and no play in Las Cruces. Somehow he met Jennifer, possibly hanging around the old Supercomputer lab, only Tess had to quickly warp him into submission by making Jennifer "Leanna, the hot Sweedish Honey." They teamed up on the translating, hence her renting of the shack in the desert. But bits and pieces keep coming back to Alex, and since his head offended him, he cut it off (of the photo). However, how did Tess expect to get the translation? Did Michael/Maria/Liz just work too fast, before Tess really was ready to complete her task? That would explain the flying pyramid bomb. (And just because EdR so convincingly scrunches up her face doesn't mean that's not smoke and mirrors. In chem lab last year she was working Max without any evidence of strain.)

I for one am all for next year being filled with evil puppetmaster Tess causing pain and torture to the royal remainders. Or for Ava coming back to join the side of sweetness and light. I'm sure Valenti will make up the couch for her.

OT, I also couldn't get on the boards yesterday, I assume because of mega traffic (bless their little dreamer hearts).

1) ON TIME MACHINES AND DISPOSABLE SPACESHIPS. Has anyone figured out exactly what the Granolith is? After tonight it seems that we are left with a multi-use object that can, with the correct key, be turned into a disposable space ship. (And one that changed shape from the promo to the finale--did you catch that?)

I won't even touch that one I thouht the whole scene with the Granilith was bad special effects it was so cheesy.

So let's see--WHY were the skins and the enclave at the NT meeting so intent on finding its location? Are we to believe that this is the only transportation left in this part of the galaxy and that everyone wants to go home? Or was everyone trying to prevent our podsters from going home? And if so, then why was K'var so intent on getting them home? I'm sorry folks, this just isn't making a lot of sense. Can you figure it out?

He just want to get rid of the Pod Squad once and for all.

2) TESS THE MANIPULATING...(AHEM). Okay, I've never liked Tess--but that ending left much to be desired. You'd think I'd be a happy camper with her gone...but once again, it doesn't quite rind true to what we seen throughout her narrative appearance. Up until this time we have been told that she can mindwarp but that this power has its limitation (field of influence, time she can sustain the warp, etc.). Now we are being asked to believe that she can keep Alex in a state of almost continual mindwarp while he is in another distant place? This is the same Tess that scrunches up her face in agony to mindwarp someone right in front of her? Give me a break!

That's what I thought, if she was mind-warping Alex for that whole time she would be exhausted. I don't believe she mind-warped Max she just caught him in a weak moment. I refused to blame Tess because Max slept with her, it takes two. And if she did mind-warp them then they better watch out becuase she is stronger than the three of them put together.

True it appeared that her influence (in erasing memories) was beginning to break down there at the end (hence the recovered memories of Kyle and Maria's mom).

It was too convenient that the mind-warp began to fail at the same time.

And did you notice that there was no hint of Max being "under the influence"? Now, THAT is really disturbing!

Like I said earlier he slept with Tess because he wanted too at that point in time.

3) FLASHES, FLASHES, EVERYWHERE! Tonight's eppy answered a long standing question of why Liz was able to receive flashes. Apparently it depends upon the openness of the kisser! NOW Maria receives flashes because Michael wills her to see him.

I was disappointed because even though I am not a dreamer I thought the flashes meant they were connected and that they were "meant to be" but if apparently the aliens decided who gets the flashes and who doesn't then the flashes don't mean a thing. I thought it was lame that all of a sudden Michael wanted Maria to get the flashes.

And Tess received flashes too...don't want to think too much about that...sigh.

I think it was the fact that two aliens mated.

4) SHE CAN'T BE THE KILLER...? In one fell swoop Leanna is exonerated of her supposed alien status. Okay--then what about that file that Alex left? Was that a red herring left by Tess? I'm sorry but that just doesn't seem plausible...it was too well hidden to look like a "plant" -- what do you think?

Maybe Leanna was taken over by one of Khivar's allies and she has no idea what she was doing(She's a female Brody).

5) ALEX AND THE MESSAGE TO THE ROYAL FOUR. Remember that scene where Alex was delivering a message to the royal four? Why was he doing that? Who was manipulating him at that point? It doesn't make a lot of sense that it would be Tess does it?

I don't what was going on with that. You're right it makes no sense.

6) NESEDO THE ARCH TRAITOR? According to Tess, Nesedo sold out the podsters ages ago. In exchange for Max's son (who would be recognized by the populace as the legitimate heir--for whom K'var could act as regent) Nesedo cut a deal with K'var. Supposedly, that is...but what would Nesedo get out of this deal? The salvation of Tess? Some reward yet unmentioned?

Maybe Nascedo would get to go home and Tess would get to keep her life and be regent for the baby.

And was Tess thus playing along ALL of this time?

That makes no sense when exactly did she find out about this deal and why continue when Nascedo died.

I don't know folks--the dreamer part of me wants to rejoice. But the logical, rational, SF lover cringes at the way they tied up this season. It was too cliche. Tess was the villian. Nesedo was a villian. It was almost unworthy of our writers.

I was disappointed that Tess was made to be the bad guy. I was hoping for something a little more intricate.

Well, maybe I'm just too negative about the SF in this eppy...but to me it was shot full of holes. What did you think?

I had to suspend some belief in order to enjoy the show. But I can't wait to see next season, so I guess the writers did their job in making people want to see what will happen next season.

LSS

A few fine points we might have missed: quote:Originally posted by PepperjackCandy:
...I also have a theory about the mirror. Perhaps when Tess made Kyle forget about Alex, she made him forget seeing Alex, but failed to take that big mirror into account. The mirror was pretty big, so perhaps from wherever Kyle was in the room, he could see Alex's reflection in that mirror. So the memory of Alex's reflection stayed in Kyle's subconscious, and eventually worked its way back to the surface...PepperjackCandy, that is surely what was intended!
and:
quote:Originally posted by Juniper:
...And just because EdR so convincingly scrunches up her face doesn't mean that's not smoke and mirrors. In chem lab last year she was working Max without any evidence of strain...Oh yea!

If JK intends to fill in plotholes (like the red triangle device's origin, Leanna's relationship to Alex, etc.), I think Tess would have to not been working alone. Recall the Skins had at least 2 factions on earth. A plausible explanation would be that Tess did in fact conspire with the faction that led to TEOTW in both versions of the "future," but this time she did have some feelings for Max and Valenti and everyone, thus TEOTW did not happen entirely. Recall Tess asking Max if he was sure he wanted to go to Antar--definitely some regret expressed. If Tess was a scapegoat, it was for the EAs, not JK, IMNSHO.

P.S. The Physics Teacher where I work is an old Trekkie, and she says that the first 2 years of the original Star Trek had terrible Sci Fi, and the fans squawked as much as we do. So by season 3 they hired some Reggies.

I'm not sure how jcoleman/Leanna fits in her, but I think she was pawn in the whole mess.

I also think there is a lot of confusion on why K'var would want the baby too. Obviously, K'var lacks something the Max and Isabel have... royal blood. Remember, the Skins were trying to deliver Vilondra as well. Maybe K'var needs to have an heir to maintain a claim. (I am working under an assumption that K'var and Tess are father and daughter, thus explaining the Nasedo deal.)

As far as flashes - aliens get flashes when emotions are heightened.... for pete's sake, Michael got a flash from a key. Max from a CD. Why can't Tess get a flash from a kiss?

As far as mind erasuer - I can see that being harder than mindwarping to maintain. Holes in one's memory beg to be filled. I get bothered when I don't remember a dream entirely. I think the subject would fit erasuer harder than mindwarping. Mindwarping is hiding the present here and now. Eraser is hiding the past. It's hard. And if you did it right the first time, it should be completely unnecessary.

As far as finger tapping to break free, there most be something about the sound and motion that helps locate the memories.

I also want to point out that Max seemed to resist Tess's tricks once he figured out something was wrong. I bet it's possible for humans to resist too to some degree.

CW got killed because Nasedo wouldn't tell her where the granolith was. That's it.

Am I sorry to see the writers resort to sex to tell a story. The M/M bed scene in ID showed intimacy in a much more creative way. I think that there is way too much sex on TV and it's done in a trite fashion most of the time. I'm not sure M/M needed to do it to have a touching moment at all.

The Tess/Max thing from Baby it's Poop still makes me vomit.

About the flashes of seeing each other: So, it's physical contact, not just kissing.

Wasn't Atherton murdered in 1959(?) and with early space programs and a presidential assassination all happening around the same time, I just have a nagging feeling that this time period might be important.

(Wipes brow) Good, because I was going off on a mega-tangent trying to figure that out.

Off-topic, I completely respect your view, QF, but I didn't find the M/M nookie to be gratuitous, and one very reason was that he didn't tell her he'd be leaving until after -- so it wasn't a "sailor's last day ashore" courtesy boink. It seemed genuinely heartfelt, and sex in a healthy relationship on the WB would be a refreshing change rom the norm.

Hi Qfanny!

Hmmm--of course, inanimate objects (like the CD and the key) have no volition (i.e., will). So picking up residual images from them says nothing about the object per se. Michael's words to Maria indicated that receiving flashes from him WAS an act of volition. So receiving flashes implies an act of volition on the part of the flash's point of origin. Succintly put--Michael had a choice where the CD or key did not.

As some posters have indicated, prior to this eppy, the ability of Liz to receive flashes from Max was a key item of SF debate. They actually tied up this loose end in the finale.

The BAD news about Tess receiving that flash from Max is that it indicates Max's being "open" to Tess.

The GOOD news about Tess receiving that flash (at least for this old Dreamer's heart) is that the flash's content is such that it implicitly emphasizes Max's tie with Liz rather than Tess.

As usual--great comments and ideas Qfanny--you really get us thinking!

LSS

In short...I would suggest that the love scene in Season 2's finale is a parallel to Max telling Liz "I love you" in the finale of Season 1. There are other telling parallels as well: 1) the "destiny" of season 1 (as an implied future action) is replaced with the hunt for Max's alledged child, 2) visually we have the group together and Max looking outward in both finales, 3) in both Season 1 & 2 a main character departs from the group (Season 1/Liz) season 2/Tess), 4) spatially, both finales conclude at the pod chamber, etc.

Thus, I guess I see that M/M as a variant of the M/L confession of love in the first season's finale rather than an attempt to deal with hot steamy alien sex to excite the audience. In fact--both sex scenes (M/T and M/M) I thought were downplayed. I thought the scene from season 1 where M has L in Mi's apt was by far the most erotic scene in the two seasons (we even get some hip action before the flash cuts in...and God knows, female viewers [and some male ones as well] probably have replayed that scene until the tape is danger of breaking!).

LSS

As for allowing Tess to see he had kissed Liz could have been his way of saying "you got me, but you'll never really have me" or it might be that his feelings for Liz are so strong, in the emotional state of having to leave her, he couldn't stop Tess from seeing it. Personally, I like the first idea.

I have never really believed that the flashes indicated anything special about their relationship (as in her being part alien). It is an alien thing, but it only takes one alien to make it happen. Michael never let Maria have them, but he obviously did from her because he described the red tennis shoe and the dog. If it took two aliens then Maria and Liz would have to be part alien. Not a scenario I want.

The finale was great IMO because it answered some questions, but left enough holes to make me want to come back and get the answers. I don't ever want them to answer everything... that would mean the series is over for good.

Hi kla!

So do I!

LSS

Hmmm--of course, inanimate objects (like the CD and the key) have no volition (i.e., will). So picking up residual images from them says nothing about the object per se. Michael's words to Maria indicated that receiving flashes from him WAS an act of volition. So receiving flashes implies an act of volition on the part of the flash's point of origin. Succintly put--Michael had a choice where the CD or key did not.

Different kinds of flashes -- emotional versus physical. "The key opens a door in this building" versus "you are the sun, moon, and stars to me." I don't see that there has to be a correlation between the two types of flashes except that both are the result of heightened extrasensory perception/communication. Just like unlocking doors and turning ketchup to mustard are two different powers.

For what it's worth.

My tweak on the flash of Liz that Tess saw was either:
1) Responsible Max was being open to her as the girl he got pregnant, but all she could see were his true feelings
or:
2) She was doing a variation on the mindwarp similar to Isabel's dream walking to see what he was thinking.

Either way, he was ***Cherishing*** the Liz kiss.

The Granolith, the stepping stone...its significance is definitively its mystery. To the skins it was a way to save their, well, skins. To the summit attendees it was proof of the New Mexico squad's birthright. To FL and FM, it was tweakable for use as a time machine. In the present world, it's a means to get home. It stands to reason that a great symbolic importance (deserved or mythologized) would be laid on such a versatile bit of technology. As for it's one-time use, LSS, don't forget that it's still a time travelling device when used with the right software. PepperjackCandy, you reminded me that until the NY summit, no one was certain about the location of the Granolith. I seem to recall that K'var had been convincing his subjects that it was within his control (or maybe I'm confusing events in the show with speculation on the boards).

First, let me say that despite some silly plot holes, I greatly enjoyed The Departure.

Juniper, you've brought up something that's been bothering me. Rather than being plagued by inconsistancies between EOTW and Departure, it's the events in Max In The City and how they relate to the season finale which confuse me.

It seems that Tess and the Dupes actually had the same goals. So why didn't she help them in convincing Max to turn over the Granilith and return "home"? She had to get pregnant first? (Maybe hybrids can only get pregnant on Earth? I don't know. It makes about as much sense as that embryo being poisoned by Earth's atmosphere!)

The point was made that the location of the Granilith should be protected at all costs. Liz went out of her way to warn Max about it. The reaction that the summit attendees had when they learned that K'var no longer had the Granilith--indeed, that it was now on Earth and that Max knew where it was--indicated that the Granilith has a tremendous interplanetary significance.

So, given the fact that Max was unwilling to accept K'var's terms, even if it meant further suffering for those "back home", why did he do such a tremendous reversal in The Departure? Not only is he willing to go back home prematurely, putting himself and his family at risk and jeopardising the whole mission as outlined by Mom-o-gram (are he and the others really equipped to help their people at this point in time?) but then upon learning the truth of Tess' deception, he still delivers both the Granilith and his heir to K'var! Why, why, why? Certainly not the actions of a king.

On the other hand, Max has demonstrated repeatedly that while he's willing to sacrifice himself to save those he loves, he is unwilling to sacrifice them for the greater good. The same must hold true for his unborn son. Would we expect anything different from him?

(Frankly, I wish he'd taken his chances with trying to find a solution to the atmosphere-poisoning rather than shipping Tess and baby off...though we'd still have Tess here. And as someone mentioned earlier, how is Max possibly going to be able to help his son? Perhaps he hopes that Larek can come to his aid...I don't know.)

So my lingering question is, what REALLY happened between Tess and the Dupes when they supposedly tried to force the location of the Granilith from her?

I don't think we will ever see Max strumming his fingers. Max has been mindwarped before by Tess & Nicholas & has never shown signs of that side effect. My theory is that it's either a human thing or a side effect of having memory taken from you, not just implants or mindraping.

I think that during Journey to NY when Tess was taken & couldn't remember what happened is when she turned evil(not that I like her before). What if Nicholas was with Lonnie & Rath both knowing how she felt about Nacedo, mindwarped her into believing that Nacedo formed a plan with Kivar to get Tess pregnant with Max's child & return with baby & the rest of the podsters to the home planet. Lonnie & Rath knew that she wanted to go home plus from knowing Ava, knew that she wanted Zan to love her. This way Kivar would get what he wanted Max & Co dead plus a bonus the Granolith.

So, given the fact that Max was unwilling to accept K'var's terms, even if it meant further suffering for those "back home", why did he do such a tremendous reversal in The Departure? [/B]

I'm no Max apologist, but his intention to get them all home was spurred by the alien baby and its survival. I guess that was worth more to him than the earlier "deal" offered by K'var. Except if K'var and Nasedo/Tess were in cahoots all along, why the summit in the first place? Why wouldn't K'var just be waiting patiently for Tess to get knocked up?

quote:Originally posted by Lionspaw:
Upon learning the truth of Tess' deception, he still delivers both the Granilith and his heir to K'var! Why, why, why? Certainly not the actions of a king.[/B]

Well, I don't necessarily think that the G-lith was "delivered" to K'var...it's probably still right where it's been all along, minus a disposable space capsule that contains Tess and the so-called baby.

quote:Originally posted by Lionspaw:
On the other hand, Max has demonstrated repeatedly that while he's willing to sacrifice himself to save those he loves, he is unwilling to sacrifice them for the greater good. The same must hold true for his unborn son. Would we expect anything different from him? [/B]

'Cause, dude, you know, it's like, his son. And he's sending him home 'cause, like, the kid can't breathe.

quote:Originally posted by Lionspaw:
So my lingering question is, what REALLY happened between Tess and the Dupes when they supposedly tried to force the location of the Granilith from her?
[/B]

A very good question indeed.

LSS: In keeping with your parallels between Destiny and Departure, I noticed a similarity in these comments Max made to Liz. In Destiny, "I wish I could go back Liz, back to when things were normal." and in Departure, "I wish, I wish this all could have been different." I hope Max will not have any regrets at the end of Season 3.

On the flashes...I think that the flashes that Liz saw of Max as a child were definately given freely to her. The ones that still have me stymied though are the space travel flashes, and those that led to the finding of the orb. These seemed to be from a whole different place, for a whole different reason, and I have never seen it adequately explained.

On the M/L scene in Michael's appartment...I'm with you. That has to be one of the most erotic and sensual scenes I've ever watched, and it didn't really show much that was overtly sexual. Many Ros-partners gained repeatedly from that scene! lol I remember asking Provence to add "Sexual Healing afterglow" to the DDD.

On the M/M love scene. I was much more moved by their previous scene where he wanted her to "see him". I do wish he had told her he was leaving before they hit the sheets though and I wonder if he had a condom with him...just in case. lol I was impressed with the way Maria took the information that he was leaving. It was classy, no hysterics...just a sweet moment.

There are so many interesting places to go after that finalé, so many possibilities for next season. I only hope that JK is up to the task. I really need someone to make sense of all the quirks and questions regarding alien pregnancy. It just seems way too contrived as it stands. If I had more confidence in Mr. Katims, I'd be a happier camper. I have a lot of hope riding on that final shot of the six of them at the rocks.

But CosmicC, remember in TEOTW when Tess told Max that Nasedo had told her not to get attached to her body, that it wasn't who she really was? Assuming she was telling the truth, and assuming Nasedo was telling the truth (two ***very*** big assumptions , then we could also assume that on Antar she would shed her human body somehow.

Arctic Lurker, it would be really cool if next season Liz or Michael go poking around up there and find its grown back like the Gandarium Crystals (but puh-lease! No more Jelly fish!).

And if the base of the Granolith regrows itself, will Liz want to risk going back in time to save Alex?

I actually believe Tess because all she and Nasedo wanted was to return home. They had no idea what to expect when they found Izzy, Michael,and Max. So they manipulated the three just to suit their needs.

CosmicCandy: I don't know if Tess is Vilandra but I am thinking that she may well have been the traitor back home on Antar. I'm somewhat dubious that the enire setup was Nacedo's doing. I have never felt that anything said by Tess, Congresswoman Whitaker, the Dupes or particularly Nicholas was worth believing.

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:

But CosmicC, remember in TEOTW when Tess told Max that Nasedo had told her not to get attached to her body, that it wasn't who she really was? Assuming she was telling the truth, and assuming Nasedo was telling the truth (two ***very*** big assumptions , then we could also assume that on Antar she would shed her human body somehow.

shapeshifter: I've always wondered about this alien body thing. Will the pod squad have to go through a period of stasis growth like they did to become human or will they suddenly shed their human bodies (to use your word) as soon as they hit the Antarian homeworld? I also simply can't believe that the product of two hybrids can't survive on Earth...although there's a LOT about that pregnancy that I can't believe.

quote:originally posted by shapeshifter:
Arctic Lurker, it would be really cool if next season Liz or Michael go poking around up there and find its grown back like the Gandarium Crystals (but puh-lease! No more Jelly fish!).

I wasn't thinking so much of things growing back, as things being left behind, unharmed by the blast. Now that you mention it though, the idea of re-growth is trés interesting, expecially in light of what we saw with the Gandarium. Agreed...the jelly fish was definately worthy of disdain and ridicule. I also would like to see Liz and Michael work together...only next time they find something I hope he won't take all the credit for it like he did in the intro to Departure. lol

Earlier in the thread I pointed out that, in using the Granolith as a time machine, given what we saw it do on Monday, and given that Liz was still it the chamber after Max was inside it, she was most likely dead before departure.

But Chris brought something else up. Granted that Max just sort of appeared "poof-style"...but did the Granolith from his time line come along? Is it parked out there in the hills? Improbable, but no more improbable than anything else.

I agree with you that Tess is probably a liar. Point of fact I'm beginning to wonder if she and Ava were switched. The thing that's baking my noodle is, was "the baby is dying" a con? A mindwarp job to get Max and the rest back within K'var's reach? I have no doubt that she was pregnant, but how could our atmosphere be killing a kid that was enclosed by her womb?

Dunraven I guess I see it as a difference between knowing how a computer works....and being able to use it. I have no doubt they understood the G'lith, but what I want to know is...did they know about the physical effects?

Hey Kzinti_Killer: I've been spending so much time reading threads that I haven't had much time to post. lol Nice to have a spouse who watches the same fine shows. I have similar discussions with Mr Lurker. He made one interesting observation the other night. After Max tells Liz he's going home, and she points upward with her index finger, Mr L remarked, "Isn't she using the wrong finger?!" An astute observaton I thought.

quote:Earlier in the thread I pointed out that, in using the Granolith as a time machine, given what we saw it do on Monday, and given that Liz was still it the chamber after Max was inside it, she was most likely dead before departure.

But Chris brought something else up. Granted that Max just sort of appeared "poof-style"...but did the Granolith from his time line come along? Is it parked out there in the hills? Improbable, but no more improbable than anything else..

I read your earier post but I assumed that if it was used to transport someone through time, it would not do the blasting off thing that it did in Departure when, it morphed into a space ship. Therefor no death to Liz at that moment. What I did get in EOTW though is that the enemies were literally at the door (much noise outside) and they would have stormed in and killed her post haste.

I thought that the granilith would transport you in a "beaming" sort of way and still be there for your return...if you were going to return.

The idea of it travelling with you to the new time era never occured to me but it is an interesting thought. The thing I'm wondering is, why did FMax suddenly whoosh onto Liz's balcony. Did he land, as you posit, in the hills, and then beam to the balcony? I really like the idea of another granolith waiting to be found. Problem though...they always refer to it as THE granolith, as in only one such machine.

quote:
I agree with you that Tess is probably a liar. Point of fact I'm beginning to wonder if she and Ava were switched. The thing that's baking my noodle is, was "the baby is dying" a con? A mindwarp job to get Max and the rest back within K'var's reach? I have no doubt that she was pregnant, but how could our atmosphere be killing a kid that was enclosed by her womb?

I'm pretty much convinced that, if the baby is real, the dying part was a con. It makes no sense at all and I think there is a lotmore to that situation than meets the eye. I hope we hear about it early next season.

What I still don't understand (one of the many, many things) is why Tess didn't just ask Alex to decode the book, if she felt he had the ability. I also want to know who else was in this with her. I don't think she could have set up the whole sending a mindwarpped Alex off to a university. She would have had to forge records, arrange for payment, get access to this spiffy new super computer that is probably pretty off limits to most students, and get the whole student exchange in Sweeden scam, set up. On top of that she had to maintain Alex's mind warp over a long distance for a two months. And what about that bomb? There is definately a large chunk of this puzzle missing. Can't wait till next year! Hope Mr Katims has answers for all our questions when he comes back from his vacation.

Wicked good finalés for Buffy and Angel, although I was getting a little tired of the Buffy angst this year...and beginning to feel a trifle manipulated. Joss doesn't usually make me feel that way. Now, how the heck is Joss gonna go about bringing her back?

**edited because I really shouldn't try to type when I'm half asleep.

ITA If you notice, whenever Max expresses any doubt about the baby, his relationship with Tess, or not going home in the near future the baby/Tess have another ‘episode’. And a little nit picky detail that bugs me from the big one where she dropped the sodas in the kitchen, she asked Max if he wanted a diet or a regular soda. I was always under the impression the aliens only drank regular soda for the sweetness factor. Plus she should know that cherry coke is Max’s favorite, but that’s neither here nor there

Sweet Roswellian Dreams
Lizzybell
_____________________
Loner
I’m just happy to be nominated. -Kyle
Go read Secrets in the Past. Now!

Maybe Alex somehow wouldn't be able to carry off the whole "Ray" persona successfully, so she mindwarped him into thinking he really was Ray?

I've figured, btw, that Tess didn't have a continuing control thing going of Alex, she simply made him forget being Alex during the daytime and remember a life as "Ray." Sort of like how she took away Amy's memory of Brody flipping out and replaced it with memories of just being stuck in the UFO Center during the blackout.

quote:Wicked good finalés for Buffy and Angel, although I was getting a little tired of the Buffy angst this year...and beginning to feel a trifle manipulated. Joss doesn't usually make me feel that way. Now, how the heck is Joss gonna go about bringing her back?

I've got to admit that the ending didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Was it that moment of blood-to-blood contact between Buffy and Dawn in Blood Ties that did it?

If so, then being the Key must be more transmissible than HIV.

WARNING! OT SNARKINESS FOLLOWS!

Can you just imagine the last scene in that case?

BUFFY: Now, I must leap into the vortex and save humanity!

BUFFY prepares to hurl herself into the vortex.

XANDER: Wait! Dawn kissed me on the lips once! I'm the Key!

Everyone looks at him.

XANDER: What? I didn't kiss her back or anything!

XANDER prepares to hurl himself into the vortex.

GILES: Wait! I just killed a man in cold blood, and I must atone for it. I drank out of Dawn's glass accidentally once, so I'm the Key!

GILES prepares to hurl himself into the vortex.

FAITH: Hey! Wait! I went evil for most of Season 3, so I don't deserve to live. And since a mosquito bit me once right after it bit Dawn, I'm the Key!

FAITH waits a moment for someone to stop her from hurling herself into the vortex.

BUFFY: Makes sense to me.

XANDER: I think we have a winner!

GILES: Good luck!

SPIKE: Knock yourself out.

DAWN: Thanks!

Okay, back to Sci Fi of Departure: Have we discussed Mr. Evan's penchant for hot mustard sauce? Isn't that stuff sweet too? And didn't he eat some other sweet/spicy stuff in another ep? Do y'all suppose in time that Liz might like it sweet & spicy? Maybe Mr. E had contact? Or he's been emmissaried?

quote:Originally posted by PepperjackCandy:
I've got to admit that the ending didn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Was it that moment of blood-to-blood contact between Buffy and Dawn in Blood Ties that did it?

Not even that. Well, I mean, that may have had something to do with it, but listen to what Buffy said "the monks made her out of me" that what the buffster told Giles and everyone. Dawn, well, her human form, came from Buffy. Like she was Buffy's real sister. So...somehow, I don't really know, this was on the Buffy board, that makes her blood stop the portal too. Cause Dawn's blood is her blood...or something like that. Sorry, that probably wasn't very helpful...

I don't think she could have set up the whole sending a mindwarped Alex off to a university. She would have had to forge records, arrange for payment, get access to this spiffy new super computer that is probably pretty off limits to most students, and get the whole student exchange in Sweeden scam, set up. On top of that she had to maintain Alex's mind warp over a long distance for a two months.

Don't forget faking the photos and sending flowers from the Olsens to Alex's funeral, a piece of the continuing saga that always makes me sort of shake my head and grimace.

originally posted by PepperjackCandy: quote:Maybe Alex somehow wouldn't be able to carry off the whole "Ray" persona successfully, so she mindwarped him into thinking he really was Ray?

I've figured, btw, that Tess didn't have a continuing control thing going of Alex, she simply made him forget being Alex during the daytime and remember a life as "Ray." Sort of like how she took away Amy's memory of Brody flipping out and replaced it with memories of just being stuck in the UFO Center during the blackout.

PepperJack: Do you mean that you think that initially Alex agreed to be Ray, and that he was Alex at night and was mindwarped to be Ray during the day? I may be misunderstanding you here. Sometimes my elderly brain has senior moments. The thing is that both Amy and Kyle had already begun to recall what had actually happened, so within a few days the implanted memory was breaking down. It would seem that she has to have some frequent contact to keep it going...as she did to Kyle in her bedroom. Therefor I doubt that Tess could mindwarp Alex from such a distance, for such a long time. I don't think she could have gone to Las Cruces regularly because her absences would have been noticed at the Valentis. I'm certain that she had help from someone else...especially vis a vis the bomb. I simply don't think she could engineer, or carry out, this whole thing by herself.

BTW, loved your Buffy senario. *snerk* I think the almighty Joss was reaching a bit on that one. Must have been that fluid exchange because I can't remember any time when it was stated by the monks that Dawn "came from" Buffy. Don't know where Buffy got that idea at all. Not like Joss to be loose endish. Gotta ask the man about that one next time he's at the Bronze. Maybe I'll rewatch the eps first though in case I'm wrong.

shapeshifter: I've had to do a bit of teenage girl comforting this week too...for both Roswell and Buffy. Quite a few of my students are fans.

I like your Mr Evans senario. And all along so many people thought it was Mr Parker who had alien tendencies. *snerk*

Hmmm, I can see that as a posibility. Still Tess and Company would have to have had prior knowledge of the trip to set this up and would have to had made some excuses to the Sweedish hosts. Now, [b]I would have called my son if he had been on a two month exchange to Sweeden. Wonder if Alex's parents tried to. I can see how if, Alex initiated the calls, it could have been covered. Way back when my kids did high school trips overseas, they did the calling, but that was because they were travelling and they were only gone for two weeks. Of course with the way the Rosparents go through life blissfully unaware of their children, I suppose Mr. and Mrs. Whitman didn't even give it a thought.
quote:
And I'm guessing Tess sort of knocked him out during the day and then warped him into action at night. But it seems like that would still be beyond her abilities. My money's on Nicholas having leant some assistance. He would look like a student.
And remember in Harvest when Tess interrupted Isabel while she was getting to know him? And if Nasedo did a deal with Kvar, and Nicholas 'speaks for Kvar,' well, I think if they'd had a bigger budget we'd have seen Miko one more time this season.
If he was out of comission (literally) during the day, that would explain his never being seen. On the other hand, it seems to me that any student who would have access to "this incredibel super computer", a "quantam computer that could break just about any code", a computer that was still just a "mulit-million dollar toy", must have been important enough to have some sort of high profile and thus be noticed. Generally speaking only a very serions Ph.D. student, or a prof deep into research would have access to such big guns. Of course I may be applying irrational logic here. How's that for an oxymoron? I've always been an odd person in that I can accept just about anything in the realm of Science Fiction, but the writers better get the normal stuff right. :LOL

I also think that Nicholas is deeply involved. The problem with him is a fairly pragmatic one, I think. The actor is 14 years old I believe. Now, my experience with 14 year old males (and it's very extensive) is that they physically grow a LOT over the course of a season. Since the character of Nicholas is supposed to have been around for 50 or so odd years and is apparently not supposed to have changed physically, the actor himself presents a problem. I want to see Nicholas back but I wonder how they will address the changes in his appearance. Maybe it'll be because his husk was in a secret protected place and thus did not perish with the others. Or maybe they'll think we're too stupid to notice which is more likely to be the route they take. lol

Oh and I found that whole meeting in Copper Summit odd. Tess' reaction to the Congress woman's photo was totally off...a sort of wistful longing or admiration. I remember a lot of us wondering if it was supposed to be indicative of something important...or if the actress was just having trouble expressing herself.

quote:Over on the Liz/Myth thread they're talking about the possiblility that the baby is someone else's. I don't think so because of Max's last line, and because Tess is supposed to be a teenager, not a Mata Hari. But it could be Nicholas' in Another World plot (all puns intended).

i wonder about that. It seems that, if she is truly with child, it must be Max's and yet, it seems odd that she would know that same night as she looked in the mirror. Of course who knows anything about these alien pregnancies. As you say, I dont' see Tess as a Mata Hari or an "easy" woman. I think she was pretty much Maxcentric. I'm having a very hard time accepting the fact that she really "is" pregnant, given the circumstances. However, I can definately see this as being the way the story is headed. I do think it is a very contrived part of the plot because of the haste with which it happened...unless Max was indeed under some kind of mind warping. Oh crap, there I go again letting my Dreamer tendencies take over. Sorry!

...Oh crap, there I go again letting my Dreamer tendencies take over.
That's how a lot of people interpreted EdR's emoting, but I always thought she was trying to 'remember' what CW had said to Isabel while she (Tess) was knocked out. You know, the whole Vilondra thing. And I always wondered if it was 'dreamer' thinking that Tess was admiring CW's pic. I never read the Hussy's take on it. I'll have to check in with the CHADs & see what they say.

The Granolyth: Okay, it whirls around and takes off? Melts the iceberg buried below before it takes off? Beam me up Scotty! From the dialogue it was implied that the whole Granolyth was going to take off and take the podsters back home. Nice, neat package all wrapped up and delivered to K'var. But the visuals implied something else, as though the Granolyth transformed itself into something "other." Am I wishful thinking that the Granolyth has a mind of its own? Possibly, the whole of it won't go without its guardian? Is Max the guardian? "Max in the City" implied as much.

2)Alien babies and mindwarping versus "mindwiping." "Off the Menu" was clear in delineating that Tess had a "new" ability to "mindwipe" people's memories, not just implant memories that weren't really happening. If Tess was alone in "mindwiping" Alex, she was really damn powerful. Which is pretty confusing, because Courtney or whatever the Blonde's name was that had the hots for Michael said way back in "Surprise" that no one wanted Tess.

I think Katims is following a Shakespeare/Arthurian storyline. Mixed identities abound, people are not who they profess to be or think that they are, and the once and future king will return when he grows into his abilities.

I think Tess was Zan's sister Vilandra in a past life, she thinks she's Tess/Ava because Nasedo (or someother recent mindraping alien...Nicholas anyone?) makes her think she is Tess/Ava. I think like the Arthurian legend, Max has been tricked into sleeping with the soul of his sister (there really isn't any incest since they are biologically different but we are talking mytharc here).

I think K'var is going to be very, very upset when he realizes he doesn't have the child he bargained for, and Max will still have to save his child...and it still may cause his kingdom (on earth? on Antar?) to fall....

I think Max chose Liz to be his life partner at a young age because he "knew" that his former lifepartner (Isabel/Ava) would be an unacceptable lifepartner in this world, this time. Something about Liz triggered that childhood recognition, I think that part of the mytharc has yet to be revealed. So I think there is still more to the "flashes" to be discovered, that yet another enemy alien lurks.

The fly in the ointment to presuming that Rath, Lonnie, and Nicholas are responsible for the decoding of the podster's book is that they weren't around to step on board the granolyth and get a ride home. On the other hand, if Tess did have a deal with K'var, why didn't she just step and tell Nicholas about it and get some help?

Of course, this presumes that the crystal was properly coded to do the same thing the Destiny book says it was programmed to do. Both suspicious in light of Tess's double dealing...or belief that she was double dealing.

Jamethiel
"I do believe we haven't seen the last of Tess!"

]

First, let me make it totally clear that I don't buy the idea of the baby being poisoned by our atmosphere. I would not be at all surprised to learn that Tess was manipulating the situation, big time. However, in a normal human pregnancy, there are plenty of things in the environment that have little or no effect on the mother yet are potentially toxic to or may have a teratogenic effect on the embryo/fetus, particularly in the first trimester of pregnancy. I avoided tuna like the plague because of possible mercury content. X-rays, alcohol and certain medications are also things that developing babies shouldn't be exposed to. So who knows. It doesn't make sense that a product of two individuals who have no problem surviving on our planet wouldn't be able to as well, particularly since reproduction seems to have been part of the plan all along. I think, as someone mentioned earlier, that perhaps it was some polutant in the air that was causing harm, if we are to believe Tess--not the "atmosphere" itself.

That was, at least in part, my theory. Based on the number of studies that have shown growth retardation in the fetuses of rats exposed to carbon monoxide, I figured that carbon monoxide does cross the placenta, so since CO is a major pollutant, something like that could possibly be the cause of the baby's difficulties.

One thing to consider, though, is that if the atmosphere *did* cause problems for the baby, it would probably indicate that at least one of the parents' alien genetic material was from the Skins, since our atmosphere is the reason the Skins needed the husks.

Good point PepperjackCandy! I would not be at all surprised to find out that Tess is really a Skin.

If the two human hybrids did manage to have a baby, it could be adversely effected by the atmosphere if it inherited a recessive alien gene from each--in fact, it would be highly probable. I got the impression that the only difference between the Skins and the Podsters was the human DNA, but that back on Antar they were the same.

And Nemo, I thought Alex was being a kind of human DiscMan for the Book. The book wouldn't have to have been word for word the same as the momogram, because the momogram was supposed to be Mom's words--kind of like a paraphrase of the book.

Okay, one more thing:
I just got a kind of creepy, X-filian idea: When Tess talks about "what she did to Alex," what if she put his book-talking essence into an orb? What if that's what was done to Mom?

Well, at the beginning of the season, Tess was helping Michael learn how to use his powers, and we saw him capable of accelerating the jeep into the pit in "The Departure." Also, we saw one of the dupes (Lonnie?) accelerate the truck that killed Zan in "Meet the Dupes." Thus, I think that Tess was fully capable of making Alex's car swerve in front of the truck.

Really? I always had the impression that the Skins were a race opposed to the podsters' race. So are you thinking that it's just a matter of two different factions of Skins--the ones who support Zan & the ones who support Rath? And would the Shapeshifters be a subordinate race?

Race vs. Species. It's entirely probable that the skins are a different race, but the same species, in a place where racial identity means far more than it may here; think castes, for example. Vilandra and K'var supposedly were star-crossed lovers, which seems (more) dubious if you're talking about two different species.

The shapeshifters, on the other hand -- I agree, these beings seem to be of a different, possibly biologically advanced, species.

Okay, that makes sense. Perhaps different races of Skins developed as they colonized the five different planets?

The shapeshifters, on the other hand -- I agree, these beings seem to be of a different, possibly biologically advanced, species.

So you're thinking that there's two castes, the Skins and the Royals, and two species, the Skin/Royals and the Shapeshifters on PSAWN?

That would be an interesting theory, and would certainly explain why Courtney and Nicholas had such similar powers to the Podsters.

Precisely. The skins are one race; the royals and others like them are the dominant race. Perhaps Larek is a third race, or even the same race as the royals (since he seems so chummy with the family, heh). The other triangulated planets may represent other races too. But I think it's most sensible to assume these beings (skins/royals/Larek's people et al) are all the same species. So hey, they can, you know, mate.

I wish I could find the old link, but if anyone's inclined we've had some lively threads in the past on the politics of the home planet.

Yes, I'd love to read those threads. The link to "politics" on QFanny's archives webpage wasn't working when I tried it last. Is there another place to look?

I think it was Rath that accelerated the truck, and later tried to drop the window-washer's rig on Max. Long ago we saw Max push Hubble's pistol out of reach. But we were told by one of the producers (JK?) that Max cannot dreamwalk. The pattern seemed to be that the girls have powers mostly over minds and the guys over matter. (Though I don't remember how consistent that has been -- maybe there have been exceptions. Well, apparently they can all "manipulate molecular structures" of small things close at hand, such as Isabel reheating coffee or changing colors of makeup.) That's why I questioned whether Tess could stage Alex's car accident by herself, or whether it is being hinted that she had help from someone with stronger telekinetic powers like Rath. (If so, apparently he wasn't far from Roswell, because Alex's death was unforeseen, yet the cover-up "accident" was completed within hours. But maybe this is over-interpreting....)

Call me lazy for taking the writer's way out, because we know that sometimes these storylines are pulled out of thin air, but I've seen more than enough evidence to support the fact that Tess' powers and capabilities go far beyond anything we've been led to believe. Given the state Alex was in when he appeared at the Valenti's, it's still a possibility that he "came to" at some point when he was in the car and decided to end it all rather than be used as her puppet. Remember he had very little mind left at that point, and I for one wasn't sure if he died at the Valenti's or just collapsed. What seems clear is that his brain went out like a light.

However, here's the thing that I can't explain. If Tess can mindwarp all of this stuff that has happened, and we know for sure that a big part of it is true and she CAN do it. Don't you think she would have made Max seem way more interested in her and the baby idea? He constantly seems torn between the destiny idea and this huge mistake he seems to think he's made. Now, if I could make a guy believe we had sex and that I was pregnant (in his own head), I sure as heck would also make him think he's in love with me and nothing else matters. After all Kyle seemed somewhat pleased after Tess erased the memory of Alex being in her room when it suddenly came back to him. Kyle almost seemed to be in LaLa Land when she was done. Max never seemed to be like that. He always seemed to be like a guy that made a big mistake and is terrified about how to handle it. Really human sort of reaction. Not like someone being made to believe he's in love.

Unless Tess doesn't really want to be loved by Max for real. She just wants the title or, more likely, just wants to get back to Kivar by whatever means it takes.

Just wandered if anyone else had questioned any of this.

Here some of my reasons for thinking this:

1)During the hybrid chronicles, Alex was back in Roswell, Tess knew the danger everyone was in (including herself) yet she didn't try to direct anyone into finding the translation of the Destiny Book. Which according to Liz was transferred to Leanna months ago...like back when Alex returned from Sweden perhaps? Wouldn't you think if Tess is an evil person she'd want to get off planet with the Granolyth and save her skin? But she didn't even suggest that the Granolyth was the "get off planet now" reference by Larek/Brody.

2)Tess's defense of the podsters in "Wipe Out" seemed to suggest that her powers weren't under her direct control, they could only be tapped in time of extreme danger, and she was unaware of how she had managed the fireball. This is completely opposite to the planning and control necessary to make Alex's death look like an "accident."

3)I'm with whoever posted above which seemed to make the delineation by gender of the podsters powers. Tess's expertise appeared to mindbending not power pushing (like Michael)...she could show him the direction to go as she did in "Skin & Bones" but she wasn't blasting those rocks..Michael was.

Of course, I still have my parking lot theory that Tess is actually Vilandra and Isobel is actually Ava.

I'm going to add to that theory by pointing out that we don't know exactly what the Dupes "strength" powers are. Rath appeared to use the accelerator against Zan, Lonnie appeared to drop the window cleaner on Max. But neither Lonnie nor Ava dreamwalked or mindwarped in our presence....unless we look at that duplicitous scene played out against Max. Was Lonnie mindwarping Max to think she was Isobel? If so, then Tess and Lonnie are the soul twins, not Lonnie and Isobel.

Finally, and this is the most "sci-fi" reference I can think of...red, the color red in the fifties used to be identified with conspiracy and communists. For the last several episodes "red" (which reminds us of the sign in Surprise pointing the way to Tess) has been the dominant color. Was this a warning of conspiracy? That Tess was joined by others in her betrayal of Max and the podsters?

Jamethiel
I'm looking forward to season three!

Thanks shapeshifter! I'll check it out shortly.

Yes, but at that time she was not "with child," so her mission was not fulfilled -- possibly putting her in even more danger if she returned to the home planet without the papoose prince.

quote:Originally posted by Jamethiel:

Of course, I still have my parking lot theory that Tess is actually Vilandra and Isobel is actually Ava.

I agree that this makes logical sense, but for a few problematic issues: one, that would imply Iz is Max's bride, and I don't think this show wants to leave viewers with any incestuous implications, no matter how far-fetched. Two, Iz's character development based on finding out she was once a traitor becomes a big fat red herring, leaving her with even less of a role in the royal scheme.

Clearly Dupe Lonnie is the incarnation of Vilandra -- we saw her betray her brother and we saw her prepared to turn her back on Rath in her dealings with Nicholas. To have a case of "alien essence laboratory mix-up" so that Dupe Ava is twinned to Isabel and Dupe Lonnie is twinned to Tess is one big ball of confusion, don't you think?

Edited because my "spelling essence" seems to have been mixed up.

Clearly Dupe Lonnie is the incarnation of Vilandra -- we saw her betray her brother and we saw her prepared to turn her back on Rath in her dealings with Nicholas. To have a case of "alien essence laboratory mix-up" so that Dupe Ava is twinned to Isabel and Dupe Lonnie is twinned to Tess is one big ball of confusion, don't you think?

Are you implying this show isn't one confusing ball of wax as it is?

Juniper, I agree the writers may never go to the decision to reveal that Isabel and Ava were the real "soul clones" but I think it is the only logical conclusion from the way the two roles' characters have been portrayed. Tess/Lonnie = capable of murder and betrayal or their own flesh and blood who have treated them well. Isabel/Ava = loyal, compassionate, caring and willing to risk everything for the people and principles they believe in. (Some might quibble that Ava betrayed Lonnie & Rath to Liz by revealing their murderous plans, but I believe that Ava responded to Liz's heartfelt plea, as evidence of her compassionate heart.)

I tried to reply to your quote about Tess leaving without a "prince" in the oven, but somehow it wouldn't clip. Anyway, I still think that any alien and/or human faced with the option of danger and the ability to flee to possible safety, would flee. Afterall, if Tess convinced the podsters to use the granolyth as a spaceship, she would be bringing back Max, which K'var could certainly capitalize upon.

I still think that Tess's story has not been fully told, and that she is as much a pawn of other people's power plays as the other podsters.

It is puzzling to me that a show that seems to elevate human courage and spirit in the face of adversity, and the ability to change would also give us a storyline about the podsters "genes" making them evil or good. Did Tess ever have a chance to truly bond with her human family? or did she choose a lesser evil? Why did Tess allow Max, Isabel, and Michael, to leave without a fight? If her powers were strong enough to engineer Alex's death alone, why didn't she make some attempt (or any attempt at all?) to force some of the other podsters to join her in the granolyth?

Anyway, season three will certainly be interesting!
Jamethiel

I've speculated that Max and Isabel were switched - that Max is the betrayer (look at ITLITB) and Isabel should be the leader.

Also, is Lonnie a traitor? We know she killed Zan, but we know nothing about Zan. What he did to her or to Rath. I don't believe it was simply about the conference - if it had been they'd have simply gone to Roswell, gotten Max and Tess, and ignored Zan. That they killed him indicates they were afraid of him.

Sorry, don't mean to confuse things further, but I think there are a LOT of unanswered questions and almost as many unasked ones. Which is what makes speculation so fun.

I completely agree that there is much more than meets the eye to Tess' Departure, and presumably the writers have all summer to hammer those details out. And returning to Twilo pregnant -- but not with the other three royals in tow -- still means she didn't fulfill her stated mission. So I'm as stumped as I was before.

Yes, she had the complete translation possibly months ago, and I assumed she waited to reveal this factoid until she had successfully conceived. But perhaps she was waiting until the sense of immediacy was heightened, and discovering that their freak of nature baby can't survive on earth was reason enough. Or she waited until she was really threatened, like she was when the truth was revealed about Alex.

If you all haven't already, I do think the Sci Fi thread posted above makes good summer reading. There's much rehashing of a popular speculation that Tess could be the daughter of K'var, which makes some questionable things seem plausible.

Disclaimer -- I consider Max to be Zan's son, rather than his reincarnation, due to the revelation that the "essence" was genetic material.

I think that JK's message is that the DNA they inherited from their PSAWNian half doesn't necessarily determine their fate. Genetics =/= destiny (does anyone know if there's an ASCII code for the equals sign with a slash through it?)

Lonnie et al. became, not what they were destined to become, but what they *expected* to become.

However, we did see glimmers of their PSAWNian parents' halves in the last part of the season -- Max began to become the tyrant that Zan was, Isabel started to turn on him, Tess became meek and unquestioning, and Michael . . . well, maybe that's why Michael's suddenly become such a great boyfriend -- to make up for Max's erraticism.

My mind is now officially boggled. Lonnie (and Rath) killed Zan because Zan was an awful person and he deserved it, for the good of interplanetary peace?

AlexEvans, you astound me.

BTW, I do think Tess fed Max a lot of images, starting with Season 1 in the Crashdown.

And about Dupe Zan--we never saw a body. Could his essence have entered Sean? Is that why he got his ear pierced? Does this sound silly? Because I really think it could be "true."

Editing this post because I forgot to pose my original question once I got here.

Wouldn't you think that the podsters would all have been deathly terrified of taking off in a contraption like the Granolith? I mean, wouldn't you have had to have been a teensy bit suicidal (or, like in TEOTW, facing certain death) to get in there and blast off?