1. WAR ON THE HOME PLANET. At last we have some information about that war mentioned back in DESTINY. It happened at the brink of a Golden Age. There were at least two races (species?) involved...Max's and the skins. It was a revolution with representatives of both races on each side. What caused the revolution and why in the world did both sides come to earth? Was Max so different then? And BTW--what did you think of Tess "helping" Max by combining their powers? I wonder how influential Tess was "back home"? I wonder if that influence had anything to do with the revolution?

2. MAX'S TROUBLED THRONE. What do we now know of King Maximillian? His sister betrayed him and now her lover (Kalvar)sits on Max's throne. Max's second in command remained loyal even though a whole faction of skins wanted to place him on the throne.

The question is--just how much will history repeat itself? Will Izzy betray Max? It hardly seems likely (in this life at least) does it? But will Michael remain loyal to Max? He did before--but truthfully he seems hard pressed at times in this life. And what was wrapped in that canvas? Could it be the husk of Courtney? His one connection to the pro-Michael faction of skins now on earth? And since we are talking about history repeating itself...do you think Max will still emerge as leader? Did Max really seem like he had "leader" qualities in this eppy? Who would you like to follow at this point--Max or Michael?

And BTW--did it seem to you that the leader of the Universal Friendship League had some special bone to pick with Tess? Look at the way he spoke to her...maybe it was my imagination--what do you think?

3. HUSKS. Interesting info about the "skins" in this eppy. They occupy husks which are simply a shell -- a lifeform technology that protects them from earth's atmosphere and is produced by genetic manipulation. They are good for only a limited span of years. But what is the relationship between those husks we saw and the figures in the glass cases purportedly growing for 20 yrs from "spores to maturity"? And what really happened when Courtney destroyed some of their life support systems? Why the gloom and doom? And why was Nicholas adamant that all was not lost?

4. 1950--ANOTHER GOOD(?)YEAR. You know, in real life, the period starting with 1947 and extending throughout the 1950s was a classic period for UFO sightings. This eppy tells us that the skins came to earth (or at least Courtney did) in 1950. One wonders how many more landings we'll learn of.

Well folks--as I said an interesting (if somewhat uneven) episode. What did you think?

LSS

LSS, as always, covered the major points very well.

I have a few questions...

1. When Courtney broke the glass pods, was she sacrificing her own longevity to save our beloved pod squad's race? Or was it just to save Michael, because she thinks Michael can serve as the mediator in their home planet and end the war? Because I thought she was "against" the Max and the rest.

2. To my knowledge, Congresswoman Whittaker's husk was not there. Isn't the point of the harvest so that the skins can go on living after the 50 years? Well then why was Congressman Whittaker so insistent on finding the granolith before her 50 years is up?

3. The skins seemed to have felt the effects of the broken glass pods. Why? Are they connected to them somehow? If there are currently wearing husks (albeit very old ones) and the glass pods are growing their new husks, then why should damage to their new husks affect them in any way?

I thought Courtney was the one who damaged the Harvest life support system. No?

I also assume that Michael carried Courtney's replacement out. My questions regarding this:
Why would "bad" Skins grow a replacement for a renegade Skin?
How will "old Courtney" be able to use the new Husk? Can she just transfer her spirit over to a new body?

I had originally assumed that the Harvest would consist of entirely new people, not just new shells for existing people, although in hindsight, I guess this makes sense. The SKins have already replaced their husks once, between home planet and Earth.

Why do some Skins look old and others young, if they maintain their appearance all their lives?

As for Michael being leader -- interesting that Courtney's group wants to commit mutiny and install the second-in-command on the throne. I think Max did a good job as leader in this ep == by far the best to date. And he and Michael actually cooperated. I don't think he's in love with being leader per se, but I don't think he has much faith in Michael's decision-making most of the time.

Do you believe Courtney's explanation that she's a good Skin?

I gotta go to bed. More tomorrow...

That was definately Courtney's husk in the canvas bag. Without it she will die soon as will the others that were there for the harvest. That's why they were all upset. Nicholas said it wasn't over because even though all of them were going to die, Kalvar is still in power and will still come after the pod squad.

As far as Max's leadership skills, give the guy a break! He found the love of his life in bed with someone else the night before. I would think that would take the wind out of him but hopefully not for long.

Also, I was waiting for Tess to do something to help Max. I thought it was interesting how she just stood there letting Max protect her. She certainly doesn't seem a very strong person, unlike Isabelle who rises to the challenges she faces.

Now my question is - we know the pod squad is essentially human so they can survive on earth but the skins need special bio suits to protect them from the environment which is fatal to them. Nasedo apparently did not need anything to protect him on earth, although he could shapeshift to hide his true body. We assume Nasedo is the same race as the original pod squad, so my question is - if Nasedo and the skins can live together on their home planet, why is the earth's atmosphere toxic only to the skins and not Nasedo? Is Nasedo actually a third race or also bio engineered?

I thought Courtney was the one who damaged the Harvest life support system. No?

I also assume that Michael carried Courtney's replacement out.

I agree with everything stated, and yes, Courtney did break the glass pods.

quote:Why do some Skins look old and others young, if they maintain their appearance all their lives?

I believe that they were created that way so they can seem like a community. It would be suspicious to have a community with members all the same age. But this still doesn't answer the question of how they got away with being people who never aged. Take Nicholas, for example. How many times could he have flunked to stay in high school for 50 years?

excellent question!!! Does anybody have any thoughts on this?

quote:Originally posted by Mimi:
Wow! 1. When Courtney broke the glass pods, was she sacrificing her own longevity to save our beloved pod squad's race? Or was it just to save Michael, because she thinks Michael can serve as the mediator in their home planet and end the war? Because I thought she was "against" the Max and the rest.

It sure does look like that doesn't it? Hmmm Izzy sacrificed herself for her lover in the previous life, and Courtney was willing to sacrifice her life for MikeyG in this life. BTW I'm with Maria--that closet looked like an erotomaniac's to me! If that was political concern, then our current election is tame indeed!

quote:2. To my knowledge, Congresswoman Whittaker's husk was not there. Isn't the point of the harvest so that the skins can go on living after the 50 years? Well then why was Congressman Whittaker so insistent on finding the granolith before her 50 years is up?

You know, it does seem like we've got two different approaches to husk renewal. Of course the difference simply might be that the granolith provides "instant" renewal as opposed to growing husks from spores over 20 year intervals!

quote:3. The skins seemed to have felt the effects of the broken glass pods. Why? Are they connected to them somehow? If there are currently wearing husks (albeit very old ones) and the glass pods are growing their new husks, then why should damage to their new husks affect them in any way?

I think we can assume that there is some type of connection--the nature of which is unknown to us at this time. This simply could mean that the chambers contained bodies that had "matured" and the process of psychic transfer had already begun. BTW--the title Harvest could be interpreted as an indication that the husks were "ripe" and ready to receive the essence/whatever of the alien core.

LSS

quote:Originally posted by Alienwatcher:
Now my question is - we know the pod squad is essentially human so they can survive on earth but the skins need special bio suits to protect them from the environment which is fatal to them. Nasedo apparently did not need anything to protect him on earth, although he could shapeshift to hide his true body. We assume Nasedo is the same race as the original pod squad, so my question is - if Nasedo and the skins can live together on their home planet, why is the earth's atmosphere toxic only to the skins and not Nasedo? Is Nasedo actually a third race or also bio engineered?

A couple of comments--we have yet to find out why Max's people chose a bioengineered life form for our podsters. True we know of the human source of their powers--but we've never been told that their forms were chosen for that reason. Nor have we be told that their forms were chosen for protection from earth's atmosphere.

As for Nesedo--We have no idea if earth's atmosphere effects his form (though we have seen a bit of that original form in the cave in Destiny--and it does not seem to be effected by earth's atmosphere). Of course there might be some element in our atmosphere but not in their home planet's that is a skin-specific problem and does not effect other races/species.

An interesting question might be--what do the skins look like without their husks?

LSS

1. And BTW--what did you think of Tess "helping" Max by combining their powers? I wonder how influential Tess was "back home"? I wonder if that influence had anything to do with the revolution? I think this was an example of what future Max was telling Liz they needed...Max and Tess can combine their powers for greater strength (gag).

2. MAX'S TROUBLED THRONE.
The question is--just how much will history repeat itself? Will Izzy betray Max? I guess we'll have to see haow she reacts to seeing Kivar again. And what was wrapped in that canvas? Could it be the husk of Courtney? Definitely Courtney's husk. do you think Max will still emerge as leader? Did Max really seem like he had "leader" qualities in this eppy? Who would you like to follow at this point--Max or Michael? Michael is still a loose cannon, never looking before he leaps. Max is cautious in the extreme, but is willing if not happy about taking on the leader roll. Michael always wants to act but needs Max to come up with a plan of action...he isn't a leader.

3. HUSKS. Interesting info about the "skins" in this eppy. They occupy husks which are simply a shell -- a lifeform technology that protects them from earth's atmosphere and is produced by genetic manipulation. They are good for only a limited span of years. But what is the relationship between those husks we saw and the figures in the glass cases purportedly growing for 20 yrs from "spores to maturity"? And what really happened when Michael destroyed some of their life support systems? Why the gloom and doom? And why was Nicholas adamant that all was not lost? I thought Courtney destroyed the life support systems?
Judging by the skins reaction, there must have been some psychic connection between the husks and the recipients..a sort of short circuit that temporarily disabled the skins.
I think what Nicholas was saying was, were going down, but we're going to take these guys with us...

LSS

Roxy

Hi ddawn347:

It actually depends on the nature of the connection between the walking skins and the cultivated husks they were to take over. It would be helpful to know how the transfer between the two was to take place. If the transfer is instantaneous then no, they would not have been destroyed if the transfer had yet to take place. If gradual, then it would explain why the husks' destruction only gave them a serious headache (there was only a partial connection to be severed by the husks' destruction).

What is clear now is that finding the granolith is really a top priority if those skins want to remain alive. If they can't find it soon their days on earth are numbered! (If we knew when in 1950 they arrived we could begin a countdown to their destruction--geesh--I'm vicious aren't I?)

Have any other SF questions?

LSS

I have a question: Is there any inherent conflict in the two versions of the Civil War we've been given so far? In one version, the Skins' version, Valandra caused the fall when she fell in love with Kalvar (I love these names). In the Courtney/Renegades' version, it was Michael's 'fault' because he wouldn't overthrown Max. I find it interesting that Courtney didn't mention the Valandra/Kalvar connection, and I can't decide if that's an important point or not. What do you guys think?

Tess was interestingly defiant wasn't she? T. Greer loathes her; I wonder why? Perhaps in these memories she's supposed to have lie some answers. She absolutely refused to leave Max's side and stood there snapping back at the Skins. She did look a bit lost for a second or two, before lending Max some energy, but if you'll think back, it was a nice example of how they might have worked together before.

Roxy

Hi Roxy7!

Actually the term they use in the series is "race." The CW tells Izzy that Izzy betrayed her "race." What the writers mean by this however is not clear. But it is implied that Nesedo and our podsters are one race while the skins constitute a different one.

But the idea that our podsters and Nesedo have been in close proximity to to granolith does give merit to your suggestion. Perhaps Nesedo would have had a difficult time if not for the granolith. And remember--our podsters were in close proximity to it for over 40 yrs.

Of course all of this speculation hinges on the nature of the granolith. If it is Roswell's version of Star Treks transporter, then perhaps the granolity is important because it can take folk to a place where they can receive some type of treatment--as opposed to receiving something simply by being in close proximity to it. Sigh...so many questions...only time will tell.

LSS

PS BTW I've just move from a crazed to an obsessed fan...Damn...I really didn't need stars to tell me that!

I believe that Nacedo had access to the granolith and that is why he is able to exist on the this planet without a problem. Remember when he came out of the wall? I always wondered where he came from and now I believe he was where the granolith was.

We got some of the same information from Courtney that we got from CW (that's a first). Husks have a life span of 50 years. But what Courtney didn't mention that CW so impressed upon Isabel was the importance of the Granilith. As far as we know the Skins have not yet discovered the locale of the Granilith yet they seemed to have figured out some way to continue their mission here on Earth- a Harvest, as indicated by Courtney. Is the Granilith necessary for the Harvest? Is the Harvest a method to sustain the husks without the Granilith? What was it that Courtney smashed that was so important to the Harvest? Did it remind anyone of a grouping of crystals similar to the crystal that FM inserted into the base of the Granilith in order to "power" it up?

Ok, first off. I am having trouble believing this Valandra thing...couldn't it all be some story concocted by the Skins?? Maybe to give Isabel some uneasiness??

I am also having a little trubble bying Courtney's story...I mean it makes a little sense, but it just seemed a little fishy.

When Nicholas said all is not lost, maybe he means the Granolith could be found. Then the Skins would be able to stay on earth. Another thing....could that body of Ms. Whitaker have been here "skin"....maybe they removed it from the tube. When Liz touched it, it broke, maybe cuz it wasn't FULLY grown?? The Skins reaction to the blow up, was probably just some reaciton to the fact that their "husk" was wrecked.

Well, I am a little tired. Bye

I have the world's slowest internet connection right now because it's snowing in NE! Good grief, just what I need, to drive 56 miles to work on wet streets under the influence of OTC antihistimines and antibotics.

Anyway, I wasn't really that impressed with the episode, in fact, it made me sad, but this does look like it's one from great talk. (I was sort of hoping M/L would get to some more even ground.)

1) War on Home Planet:

OK. We know really do know that the war was divided into factions. But it seemed to me that Courtney was talking to Michael about their race! As if there is one race on Twilo. (You'd think they would have given us a name in this episode too--- but geez, they've stolen all the good ones from the cheese factory, Volandra, Kilvar, what's next?) I do not have the feeling that there are two separate species on Twilo. But, that doesn't explain Nasedo, that seemed to adapt to Earth's atmosphere without the HUSK. So, was Nasedo part of the Twilonese, was he elsewhere, and why did Mommogram say, "I take this form." if the Twilonese are not shapeshifters. There seems to be a lot of circumstancial evidence to two different species on Twilo, but so far I've only heard the word race-- and race does not necessarily mean different species. Perhaps Nasedo was mercinaries from a different planet, hired to protect the ROYAL FOUR, but he sure didn't do a great job and what is the likelihood of two different SS races in the universe anyway?

2) Max's Troubled Throne:
It seems that they picked the lest likely people to clone for the rescue mission. Max was the passive king, Isabel betrayed her brother, Michael had his own secret following, and Tess. What's up with Tess? Boy, when she held that picture of Whitaker, remembering her abduction, and then she talked as if she admired Whitaker. I just wonder what's going one there. If anything. Tess seems to be the one to remember Twilo, but does she spill-- no. And I do think that the one guy had a bone to pick with her. Who knows why. --More on mommy later.

3) Husks: Well, this supports Atherton's report that the aliens could only survive a few years on Earth. Finally, a tie in to season one. I think that this HUSK scenerio was rather well done myself. It sure make a whole lot more sense than blending DNA with alien essenses. This leds me to point 4.

4) 1950: Courtney is pretty darn smug during this episode. But thank God she knew what to do to resuce everyone. If the skins came in 1950 then that means that Mommogram was made after that date. It also means that the orb burying did not occur with the podling delivery of 1947.

As far as history repeating itself, this may be true so far, just because it takes a damn amount of work and effort to change the future. It does not mean in cannot be done, but this sentiment is repeated too much to ignore and I wonder were they are going with it.

Scary.

quote:Originally posted by tanchel:
I have a question: Is there any inherent conflict in the two versions of the Civil War we've been given so far? In one version, the Skins' version, Valandra caused the fall when she fell in love with Kalvar (I love these names). In the Courtney/Renegades' version, it was Michael's 'fault' because he wouldn't overthrown Max. I find it interesting that Courtney didn't mention the Valandra/Kalvar connection, and I can't decide if that's an important point or not. What do you guys think?

I do think that the two are not mutually exclusive. That is, Courtney thinks Michael could have prevented made the throne's position stronger by usurping power from Max while in the end, Izzy's actions allowed her lover to ultimately gain the throne through her betrayal.

BTW--notice how Izzy is keeping this knowledge to herself? This does not bode well for our podsters.

LSS

I also found it interesting but haven't been able to dwell on it, the statement Courtney made to Michael and Maria on how they discovered Whitaker was a skin. Kind of implies that she didn't know that Whitaker was going after Isabel? Which would explain why she blames Michael's loyalty for the fall rather than Vilandra. Maybe not many knew of it.....

Roxy

PS Congrats on being obsessed! lol.

quote:2. To my knowledge, Congresswoman Whittaker's husk was not there. Isn't the point of the harvest so that the skins can go on living after the 50 years? Well then why was Congressman Whittaker so insistent on finding the granolith before her 50 years is up?

I think Whitaker's husk was there, the one we saw in the casket. When Whitaker did not answer that letter it must have tipped off the "Skins" that something happened to her so they devised that whole memorial scene to lead people to believe she had died in a car crash. And since she really did die and did not have an essence or whatever to transfer into her new husk then they used the husk for her funeral. Make sense?

Also, I agree that the graniloth has got to be some kind of power source used for regeneration. I think the Skins grew those husks as a "just in case" if for some reason they could not find the graniloth.

Also, I also noticed how Iz kept her whole conversation with Whitaker to herself. This is not good. There are way to many secrets being kept and this could lead to what happened the first time around.

Great to hear from you! A couple of comments on your remarks:

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
We know really do know that the war was divided into factions. But it seemed to me that Courtney was talking to Michael about their race! As if there is one race on Twilo....I do not have the feeling that there are two separate species on Twilo.

Okay--I think that there have to be at least two races (if not species) because:

1) the CW noted that Izzy had betrayed Izzy's "race" and belonged with the CW's "race" now.

2) Nesedo is a ss--and we have no evidence that the skins are ss...therefore, it would seem that Nesedo and the skins are different. Moreover, this difference seems a bit much to simply ascribe to racial differences (though that might be how our writers will explain it). At the very least, however, we can agree that the skins and Nesedo are different. Now, the question is...is our podsters' "essence" and Nesedo the same? Nesedo might be, as you noted, a mercenary imported from off planet. If so, then you would at least have to explain the CW's comments to Izzy. Also I think youhave to explain Nesedo's comments to Max--that is when Nesedo lay dying in Max's arms, his reference to the skins made them sound as if they were the "other" and not like our podsters at all.

quote:2) It seems that they picked the lest likely people to clone for the rescue mission. Max was the passive king, Isabel betrayed her brother, Michael had his own secret following, and Tess.

But remember--they are the Royal Four. We don't really know the full significance of that yet...but if we are talking birth/caste here it would go a long way to explain the "why" of these four rather than others.

quote:What's up with Tess? Boy, when she held that picture of Whitaker, remembering her abduction, and then she talked as if she admired Whitaker. I just wonder what's going one there. If anything. Tess seems to be the one to remember Twilo, but does she spill-- no. And I do think that the one guy had a bone to pick with her. Who knows why.

I thing there is definitely a connection between the skins and Tess, but I do not think it is because Tess is a skin. I may be way off target here--we'll have to see as the storyline unfolds.

Concerning Tess and CW--it seemed to me that what she admired was the idea of roots...the daughter/mother connection. What WAS unsettling to me was Izzy saying that the CW was like a "mother."

quote:3) Husks: Well, this supports Atherton's report that the aliens could only survive a few years on Earth. Finally, a tie in to season one.

But weren't Atherton's comments based on the aliens' cranal capacity rather than their skin?

quote:4) 1950: Courtney is pretty darn smug during this episode. But thank God she knew what to do to resuce everyone. If the skins came in 1950 then that means that Mommogram was made after that date.

Or simply that Mom anticipated that the bad aliens would follow.

LSS

Marissa

Marissa

Good point. But didn't we see a lot of floating skin at the end of Harvest? If so then the implication is that the husks disintegrated. Hmm--BTW what did make of that read stuff you could see in the hole that Liz made? It did seem that what we saw was more than a plastic replica--it looked more like a dried out human body with the skin acquiring a brittle texture.

Your observation is an interesting one.

LSS

I've gotta edit this... I thought that Courtney's story was completely unbelievable for some reason. They just left it hanging there; Michael absorbed it and moved on too quickly, Courtney told too much at once. I understood everything she said as Maria did. Maybe this is the skins' way of trying to break apart the "Royal Four" (if they don't stop using that phrase... ugh, someone at the WB needs to die )

Also... did anyone notice the mannequin-like figure that was in the glass case in the barn? The camera panned over it when Isabel was following Nicholas through there. What was that?

Marissa

Yeah, I posted about this earlier. I'm glad someone else caught this!

Not only T. Grier, but also Whitaker. Whitaker kidnapped Tess and had no qualms throwing her about (but yet didn't kill her? Why?). In the words of QFanny, What is up with Tess?! Why do the Skins seem to be singling her out?

Apparently in this ep, the question was answered how Vanessa Whitaker became Congresswoman Vanessa Whitaker. "Widowed 6 months before her husband John Whitaker's election", she ran for office and won "the election by a higher margin then any other democrat in the past 15 years". She marries a candidate (or someone running for re-election) for New Mexico congress, John Whitaker, he dies (suddenly, ahem) before election. His wife takes his place on the ballot and wins, hence a Skin attains position of power. Now how did CW seemingly landslide this election? The news report said she was a "controversial" Congresswoman. Were her beliefs in "little green men" always so prevalent (even before the elections)? If so, how did she seemingly have such an enormous victory in the polls?? Are we seriously to believe New Mexicans would put some zealous UFO nut in office? Are there MANY Skins who are registered voters or does Whitaker have *high* friends in the right places (manipulating the vote)?

This probably gets into something beyond the "sci fi of Roswell", but I find it interesting that our Congresswoman was a democrat (har har, liberals indeed! They've got aliens in office!)... these Skins are apparently the 'revolutionaries' on planet Twilo. Are TPTB attempting to make a connection between democrats / revolutionaries... or were they just trying to be cute because it's an election year? The democrats are evil aliens I tell you!! Evil aliens!!!

I also found Walt Crawford's little comment drawled at Max rather interesting, "I guess you're the man in charge." ha ha ...?

Melodious

I definitely need to re-watch before disecting the "Science" Fiction. But my old Season 1 sci-fi-political theory seems to be coming to pass with a few adjustments. Specifically, I had suggested that a separate group made up of both factions wanted peace instead of victory by having the podsters mate with humans instead of aliens. I'm really not sure how this is panning out now, but it doesn't seem too far off.

Another reason I need to rewatch is to take notes on a few key phrases that seemed lifted from these threads. I love it! Just like when Melinda Metz inadvertantly used a line from the show in the later books, and just like when the writers used lines from the books after the first (the only "official" book used). Collaboration in spite of copyright! Yea team! Artists win! okay, shapeshifter calms down now. Ahem, yes, as we were saying: archetypes, nothing but archetypes.

I thought the relationship stuff was superb. Great dialog well-delivered. Like Tess asking Liz how Kyle was as a lover. And Maria yelling to be heard over Michael's "inflating ego."

But actually this was pretty creepy, Halloweeny sci fi, not really my style.

Second that "creepy vibe" sentiment!! I was getting a major "Village of the Damned" feel from all the Skins ... at first. Maybe that's partly because the kid playing Nikolas was the same that played Gage in Pet Semetary (the kid creeped me out then and he creeps me out now. Excellent choice for a Skin!)

For some reason (possibly my pov is biased because I always kind of liked Courtney and I really want to believe she's an ally), after Courtney's confession probably, I was watching all the Skins mope towards the destroyed place where their husks were stored... and I felt sorry for them. The Skins seem to be rather malevolent generally (so maybe I'm just a sadist), but after Courtney's actions in the ep and the fact that the Skins themselves don't seem to be all that useful on Earth... I almost get that "underdog" vibe from them? And I always have a tendency to cheer for the underdog... I don't know, am I alone here, sympathizing with the Skins?

Although, I suppose I'm also biased liking them because they were attacking Tess & Max, both characters have been annoying me recently. Call me shallow (I'm a diehard Dreamer, sue me), but Max's basic accusation at Liz leaking CW's death (because he's feeling all jilted) had me writhing. Granted, he has no clue about the FMax thing and 'Liz sleeping with Kyle' was all a setup (despite his seeming want to have faith in Liz ), but still... I wasn't all that sympathetic when the Skins were beating M/T down.

Melodious

I'm still a little confused about our aliens history, due to unanswered questions, so please bear with me if I've gotten what we do know so far incorrect.

Here are some of my thoughts:

A) different races & war on the home planet

It seems that everyone pretty much agrees that the "skins" are one race, and Nasedo/Podsters are another race with a few qualifications. For example (1) the skins were probably not called skins until they needed those skins to survive on earth, and (2) the royal four are alien/human hybrids.

I haven't been following this thread as much as I'd like to, but has there been and further discussion about the "natures" of Nasedo vs. the podsters? I remember discussions about Nasedo having non-human qualities like being able to kill without having remorse etc. and protecting the podsters more out of duty/function/job etc. than love or because he cared about them. And also how Max and the others differed from Nasedo was because they possessed human qualities and cared about life and people. (the White Room definitely dealt with this theme heavily, I'll have to watch it again.)

What this leads me to is wondering what the cause of the conflict was on their home planet? I'm wondering who the "good guys" are?---

Do the skins have human-like care? It would seem that they don't based on Nicolas's demeanor - he seems very Nasedo-like to me and not human. But then Courtney seems to be acting non-selfishly by doing what she did to save everyone. So I think the jury is still out on this one.

What were our Royal Four like before they were part human? Were they like Nasedo? I think we should assume so. ---

So what I'm trying to figure out is who's side I want to be on? The Skins or Max's race or Neither.

*I like how human nature is being thrown in the alien mix/conflict. I can't wait to see how this will affect the alien war!

B) I see a lot of themes at work here I'd like to bring up and I hope this doesn't go too far off science fiction.

a) Destiny - predestination vs. free will/choice
I don't think I need to comment on this.

b) Nature - alien vs. human
- or more specifically selfishness/self-preservation vs. altruism/self-sacrifice

- Max risked his existence by saving Liz's life, (and Kyle's too)
- Max & Liz sacrificing their love and their relationship to save lives
- Nasedo killed for self-preservation
- the skins, including CW, also seem focused on self-preservation

Courtney is still a wild card to me. Will she help Michael or her race? I thought perhaps the reason Nicholas said all was not lost is perhaps he noticed Courtney's new skin missing and is counting on her to pull through for them by finding the granilith or something. We'll see, I guess.

c) Time - history/future

There's a lot of touching on this theme going on. History repeating itelf (reffering to Izzy's betrayal) and changing history (the way Max & Liz did). If my memory serves me correctly the original quote isn't "History repeats itself" it's "Those who have no knowledge of their history are doomed to repeat it." If this is indeed the case I hope everyone holding back secrets shares what they know and soon!!!

Hmmm... now back to pondering and analyzing...

Side note (since it is not sci-fi): I LOVED Maria's line to Michael right after Courtney expalins her hero worship. Paraphrasing:
Maria: Michael, if you can hear me over the sound of your rapidly inflating ego...

Nothing says that it has to be Courtney's husk. Let's say that they didn't make one for Courtney, can she use any of them? She, her essence, could it be put into (or however they do it) any husk? That'd be a great disguise if she is a separate faction. But then again maybe that's the connection between the existing inhabited husks and the empty ones, maybe they have to be put into one that was grown for them and from them. Maybe that's why they all reacted when the husks were damaged. I dunno. Just speculating.

Regarding Courtney and her shrine to Michael. Perhaps she's motivated out of love/lust and politics. Perhaps she has dreams of being Queen!

I wasn't fond of Courtney until this last episode, she's turning out to be a very interesting character. A nice diversion while I wait for Liz to spill the beans about FMax.

I'd like to hear more of what everyone thinks about Tess. I can't quite figure her out.

That is a really good point Mimi. How do these people hide if they never age?

I also wondered why the skins let Max and crew hang out at the funeral for so long without attacking them? Didn't they know who they were? They knew they were not members of the UFL. Nicholas had suspicions about Isabel already. Didn't he pass them on? Why didn't he skins just kill the royals they seem to be after.

I specifically remember five light/signals going off. I thought at the end of season 1 that there were only five people who would chase the podsters. Now, what does the five stand for? Are there five communities of aliens?

Could Khivar be Grant? Or if is Khivar still on the throne, can he get a day pass to Earth? Does Khivar still want Vilandra? Did he use her?

Another thing, then I will stop rambling.. Courtney may have always been a loyal skin, until she met Micheal. She may of had been sent to destroy him, or recruit him, but then became smitten with him...it doesn't matter because...SPOILER ALERT!!

5

4

3

2

1

SPOILER: Courtney is dead in episode 7!!!

That was cheezy. How can they "grow" with clothing on? In all reality wouldn't they be nude??

Now, random thoughts--I also thought they used Whitaker's husk for the funeral. As for Courtney, she described herself as a renegade--CW may have had suspicions about her (hence the pictures), but if she hadn't clued in the remaining skins they might not have known and thus made her a husk as well. I don't think I saw a husk for Grant--did anyone?

I thought maybe Tess was using her memory retrieval techniques on the picture of CW when she was interrupted by Greer. If not, she was apparently conscious when CW talked to Isabel. Why wouldn't she have said something to Max re the Vilandra story?

Good point about the timing of HoloMom's message (post-1950). To my biased view, the timing seems to support the theory that it's fake. Mainly because I don't understand why the Skins are "stuck" if there is ongoing travel between here & Twilo. Further, if anyone can travel between the two, you'd think it would be the dominant race (with whom the Skins seem to be allied). Of course, we still don't know what the Granolith is, and it may have facilitated the transmission of HoloMom's message.

We've been thrown quite a lot of mythology this season so far, and maybe I'm the only one, but I'm kind of having trouble keeping track of it, especially because all the information is given in terms of "the Royal Four" and "your brother" and "your race" and so on and so on. After last night, I was suddenly extremely confused in trying to connect what CW said to what Nikolas said to what Courtney said. I went back and read some transcripts and even watched some episodes over, but I still feel like I'm not getting something.

So...can someone post a quick summary of what we know so far in terms of the podster's past lives and what they and the skins are doing on Earth? I know this is kind of big request, and this might not even be the right thread to be asking, but I didn't know where else to put this.

Thanks a bunch.

--wrain

After last night, I was suddenly extremely confused in trying to connect what CW said to what Nikolas said to what Courtney said.

No kidding, wrain. I'm confused, too. We learn from CW in Surprise that Isabel betrays her Max for Khavar? Right? CW seems to be in favor of that because of her comment about history repeating itself. Courtney then tells Michael & Maria that she is part of a renegade faction that believes Michael should be the leader. So am I right in thinking that Courtney's renegade faction does not include CW? Especially because of her comment that there are "no Michael worshippers in Copper Summit". So why is there a husk for Courtney? Are there at least three groups backing three potential leaders on Twilo (Max, Khavar, Michael)?

Last comment-We don't know that it was Courtney's husk that Michael took but I'm almost positive that one of the first husks that was panned as Isabel passed was Courtney.

You know--I totally agree. I kept detecting a distinct "horror" like feeling concerning the whole Copper Summit segment. And children of the damned, the corn, etc. kept running through my mind (along with body snatchers minus the pods)! Of course the supernatural element that distinguishes horror from SF was missing, but the atmosphere was surely the same! Nice catch!

LSS

This episode REALLY makes me want to know more about the 2 factions involved...what is the difference in the two races?
IS the lack of more of the pod squad's people being here, due to them not being able to survive except as hybreds, like the 'gang'.
HOW come the 'skins' have developed a way to survive here (husks) and the other faction has not?
They must be simular or how could Isabell and the 'other leader' have been lovers?
ANYway, I'm really really interested in knowing more about their orginal forms!

I also noticed the thing with the news people...all of a sudden we have this little 'war' for powers going on, and the place is crawling with news crews? I thought that very odd!
I thought that edged towards a blooper of sorts! :-)

I like the new angle with Micheal a lot...because when you get down to reality, he and Liz have always seemed to have the most gumption for finding out answers and showing 'grit'. Max has always been far too careful. It takes both qualities though to make a good leader. Maybe they need to work more as a team, combineing their qualities better!

I think the funniest thing was the growing chambers for the husks and how they were all fully dressed, I suppose censues would have frawned on them being naked, but growing husks in clothing seemed funny to me!

And if this battle or revolution is so important, would that one little town in Arizona be the only place with 'skins' or a harvest?
When the beacan went off in Destiny, it showed it being recieved all over the place...know what I'm saying?

Many questions...
but in general, I think it was a good episode, and brought up some new interesting story lines.
I think Isabell needs to come clean about her knowing her past!

A couple very interesting points. I didn't see a husk for Grant either. Clearly Isabel didn't. But if Tess teaches her memory retrieval techniques, she might go through her memory for who she saw in the depths of that cave (so she'd recognize a Skin if she saw one). One possible way to identify Grant as a Skin. Assuming he is one. I didn't see a husk for Brody either, but there could be one in there.

I'm hoping Tess talks to Isabel, not Max. Max doesn't need to know- he is having a lot of trouble with his own emotional upset, he could neither deal with the effect on himself or help Isabel right now. But if Tess remembers anything useful she could be a big help to Isabel.

Bumping

in regards to my previous post (p2):
I was thinking more about Tess and how she's reacting to the whole thing with Max & Liz. She's pretty non-emotional, I mean she's reacting more Nasedo-like that the way we would expect a human teenager to respond, especially in the scene with her and Liz in the back of the jeep talking about Liz & Kyle together. I mean Tess knows that Liz seemingly ripped Max's heart out and stepped on it, yet she shows no negative feelings toward Liz for hurting him. I hope I'm articulating what I mean? Does anyone see what I'm getting at?

I wonder how Tess being more like her own race vs. human is going to affect the royal four this time around. Anyone have any thoughts on this?

One more thing-how come the skins seem to recognize the podsters in this episode but Whitaker ddin't know which female was Vilandra? She took a guess. Anyone have any answers? Things that make ya go hm.....
::

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:

3) Husks: Well, this supports Atherton's report that the aliens could only survive a few years on Earth. Finally, a tie in to season one.

I went back and checked transcripts, and now I'm pretty convinced that in "Among Us" Atherton was talking about skins before they had skins.

quote:From Missing's transcipt

MAX: Yeah yeah. No, it's just Atherton. Listen to this. He says...this guy is nuts...that aliens wouldn't possess the lung capacity or brain capacity for more than short-term survival on Earth. Brain capacity???

I know that's not conclusive, but Hardings words in skin and bones could be taking as another hint.

quote:From Skin and Bones' transcipt, emphasis added

NASEDO: They're among you now.

MAX: Who is? Who's among us?

NASEDO: The skins.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
If the skins came in 1950 then that means that Mommogram was made after that date.

But Pierce (TWR) said that they found the one orb in the crash, so 1947. As LSS said, Mommy Dearest must have anticipated that they'ed come.

SF

the skins were able to sense the podsters, but why wasn't cw more receptive? unless she alerted the population, but when she would have had the time? she was blown to smithereens after finding out who vilandra was. unless they realize that whoever comes into the population would be alien, since it was miles from the major highway.

what is it with the reference that max was a bad leader? it seems that it's coming from the skins' point of view that max was a terrible leader. also that isabel betrayed max and mike was conflicted b/w his loyalty to max and probably to the skins? and yet, in the momogram from destiny, he was their beloved leader. such conflicting views on his leadership.

LSS said
--BTW what did you make of that red stuff you could see in the hole that Liz made?

I interpreted it to be a structural substrate that allowed the otherwise empty husk to be able to maintain a 3 dimensional shape. I can't decide if at Harvest time the substrate disintegrates leaving a space for the parasitic alien, or if the alien just oozes around it. If we're lucky we'll get to see Courtney change bodies.

SF

One more thing-how come the skins seem to recognize the podsters in this episode but Whitaker ddin't know which female was Vilandra? She took a guess. Anyone have any answers? Things that make ya go hm.....
::

Hi TVPooh!

Welcome to the SF threads as a poster!

In terms of Tess/CW...I would love to have Tess as a skin--but I really don't think she is for a number of reasons: 1) hard to imagine that Nesedo wouldn't have seen some flakes over the years, 2) the skin leader in Copper Summit really did NOT like Tess. I'm guessing that the history between the skins and Tess is far from cordial.

BTW--the fact that Courtney's husk was present in Copper Summit tells me that either Courtney "turned" after she arrived on earth, or that the faction she represents is an underground one.

As for why the podsters are now "known"...either this is a writer's snaffu or else we have to posit some information being leaked to the League. It is interesting that the first person they met simply informed the other that "non-members" were on their way. Later, however, we hear of the "Royal Four". What I still can't figure out, however, is where are Max's people? Unless these are Max's peopl like some would suggest...but I still don't completely buy that theory.

LSS

SF

Hi SF!

You know, Nesedo mentioned in the first wppy of this season about not waiting till the skins came to roswell and "had them for lunch" -- I've often wondered about that statement and the idea of humans being consumed from within. It may be nothing...we'll just have to see...but it could be significant.

LSS

But such conflict is not unusual. Historical evaluations tend to be the construct of "winners" (history books) or at the very least vested interest groups. It is not unusual to find that there are conflicting ideas of what constitutes a "good" leader. Take Hitler for example (and NO I am not likening Max to Hitler--it is just that I think that a lot of people would have no trouble agreeing that Hitler was evil). While there are those who have no trouble damning Hitler because of his genocidal policies, others (like Richard Butler of the Aryan Nations) actally admire Hitler and have a bust of him in their worship center.

That there seems to be two different factions (one supporting one critical of Max) is actually very normal. The truly scary item to think about is...when we finally become privy to King Max's former policies...which faction will claim OUR sympathy?

LSS

Again, fabulous posts from everyone (I use you guys to defend my obsession with Roswell, when people make fun of me I bring up the intelligence on this thread!) You guys kick.

This is something I didn't see mentioned (I think).

At first I really thought they were going with Nicholas being Isabel's "great love". From the moment she saw him, she took note... but no one else did...at all. And she seemed genuinely pissed at Tess for interupting her talk with him (not good for my mindwarper heart ). I sort of got the feeling that she was pumping him for info about Vilandra and whatnot because SHE felt that he might be the one... she had that look in her eyes (of course, it was the same look she gave Tess upon Tess' arrival, so...). Also, why would she follow him and BLATANTLY IGNORE Max's order not to go. It was almost like she didn't HEAR him, like she was in a trance.

Also the mere fact that Nicholas could recognize her as Vilandra from first sight made me think he was the great love.

From the way they acted, it seemed to me that project Vilandra is to separate Isabel from the rest of the pod squad, make her sympathetic to them, get her to join their ranks, and then destroy the other of the four. Courtney says there are no Michael lovers there, which there obviously were not, but they did seem to like Isabel. All this leads me to believe that the story of Vilandra is not falsified just to make Isabel unsure of herself.

--KATE

Thanks a bunch.

--wrain

I'm kind of afraid that the writers are kind of digging themselves into the mythology a little too much, and there'll end up being loose ends, though...

--wrain

Your talk of boxed lunches makes me wonder where the skins got the original templates for their husks.

SF

Anyway, lots of great points have been brought up, but one question is still nagging at me. The hand-held items that all began beeping all over the world - the same one that knocked Michael down when Brody was holding it - aren't we led to believe that those items are for people who are against the pod squad?

If so, couldn't that mean that there are thousands of skins far, far away from copper ridge, with many other husk-developing facilities?

Just wondering...

We have never learned the identity of the Being(s) who look at the world with infrared/heat-sensing vision (remember S&B and Ask Not?). Are those good Skins? Bad Skins? Someone else? Now that we know a bit more about the other alien races out there, what do you think?

Is the entire town of Copper Summit entirely populated by Skins? Is this their home base? It's implied at the end of Destiny that they are spread around the world -- why are so many of them clustered in Copper S? Or did they all come into town for the Harvest?

What did that letter for CW mean - that she would be terminated from the UFL membership since they hadn't heard from her lately? If a Skin doesn't check in periodically, do they hunt the Skin down and kill them? Abandon them?

I am finding it increasingly difficult to believe that such a large group of clearly powerful people has been unable to find the Royal Four before now.

I also noticed that when the podsquad and friends theorize that someone from within their group must have leaked CW's death, the camera (and Max's eyes) pans over to Tess. Pair that with her interest in CW's past, and it makes me wonder if Tess is Valandra after all.

Wow -- this ended up being a lot longer than I intended. Sorry about that -- I hope you can find something in there worth discussing!

Your talk of boxed lunches makes me wonder where the skins got the original templates for their husks.

SF

SF: Precisely! LSS

Where'd the body bag come from?[/B]

A: The "truth" commercials.

So is "Once and Future King" a pun on FM while also borrowing from our Representations and Interpretations of Season 1?

So Courtney probably hoped to get rid of Isabel (Michael's alleged betrothed) by sending her flashes of Tess.

BTW--"Bride" (as in Tess) implies just married at most--not necessarily a "cemented" relationship.

And what if the leaking pod stuff was from one whole set of 4 podsters who lost their memories with the leaking stuff?

Tess would be from the other pod.

And what if one Pod set was one faction's best, and the other Pod set was the other faction's best. That would be why Tess and Max were supposed to intermarry--to end the feud.

It was the classic James Bond missed opportunity. As Max and the others start to leave, the leader telekinetically slams the door, drags Max back to the front, and then stops everything, making a big show of recognizing Max and going into this big speech about how the skins will now triumph. Of course, this gives Max time to collect his wits and prepare for the assault that finally comes after the cliched villain-speech. Even though the skin man boasts that Max will not be able to hold out against the combined force of the skin "congregation," the other skins do not immediately join him in the attack, instead waiting inexplicably for some time to add their powers to the head skin's. Of course, this gives Courtney enough time to make her sacrificial gesture of breaking whatever thingamajig she smashes that gives all the skins a big headache.

So why does it give them a headache? -- to give all our heroes time to get away of course. Courtney tells us that the husks are organic shells the skins use to protect them from the earth's atmosphere. Her description offers nothing to suggest that the replacement husks being grown in the cellar would be connected in any way to their future inhabitants any more than I am presently connected to the pants I'm going to wear tomorrow. Perhaps the "essence" of the skins was being slowly transferred into these new husks, but nothing that was said about them made it sound that way.

Anyway, contrast the attack on Max with Nicholas' assault on Isabel. Nicholas snuck up behind her and bashed her on the head when she wasn't looking. Had the skin leader blasted Max as Max was walking out, the result would likely have been the same for Max. But of course, no one ever just walks up behind James Bond and caps him. They must capture him, gloat for several minutes and, in the process, reveal their entire plan to him. Then instead of just shooting him, they suspend him 20 feet over a vat of boiling oatmeal by a rope that's being lowered about one foot a minute. Of course the busy meglomaniacal leader has to leave before Bond hits the soup, and in his absence Bond has the opportunity to persuade one of the egomaniac's beautiful henchwomen to release him -- much the role that Courtney played (even if it was Michael she did it for).

So the whole thing is about timing not believability. Obviously, any story has to rely to some extent on such devices, but ever since Roswell transformed into this "improved" SciFi format, I find the mechanics of the storytelling to be more and more visible and the story itself to be less and less compelling. The beauty of the early shows was that what we didn't know couldn't hurt us. Now the SciFi threads are full of very intelligent people trying to invent plausible or at least coherent explanations for story elements that contain neither plausibility or coherence.

Having said that, I found at least some of the answers to questions raised here to be fairly evident in the episode. For instance, I don't think there was any question that what Michael had wrapped in the blanket was Courtney's husk. The chambers are blowing up, everyone is running for safety. Michael looks at Courtney, starts to run himself and then stops and stares at her husk, which is still undamaged. When next we see him, he is emerging into daylight with his body-sized bundle. He and Courtney exchange knowing glances, and Maria asks, "is that what I think it is?"

As for Nicholas' portentous remark at the end, I didn't see any mystery about that either. On the way to Arizona, Courtney had said something like the husks lasted for about 50 years and after that it was anybody's guess. She was describing something like a "mean time before failure" statistic, not a date and time of self destruction. The skins still have an indefinite amount of time left in the husks they have now, and Nicholas meant that even though they were "as good as dead" without the new husks they weren't dead yet.

As for the skins' desperate desire for the granolith, I doubt it's a method of rejuvenating them. More likely, the granolith can be used, as someone suggested, as a transporter. It could probably send them back to Twilo. I don't like indulging in this kind of speculation, but it seems apparent that there is a way to travel between the two worlds very quickly. Nicholas' offer of a reunion between Isabel and Kevar would be contingent on Isabel providing the granolith. Perhaps the offer itself was just an attempt to get Iz to reveal the location of the device. One might ask, if the granolith can convey people to and from Twilo, why the aliens apparently used a ship to come here. Among the many possible answers would be that something had to get the granolith here too.

The suggestion that Tess is originally a skin is very interesting. There's no reason to think she couldn't be. Just because the skins we've met are using the husk method doesn't mean that a skin couldn't be "reincarnated" as a human too. Tess and Max as the union of two warring factions (in the PAST, in the PAST) would be an logical arrangement given what we know of Max's home world (it would also explain how someone like Max would ever come to marry someone like Tess in the first place -- and God knows that needs explaining).

And what of this homeworld and its political and social structure? LSS warns that we could find that Max's character and his role in the events that have brought his world to rebellion may be unpleasant. I've been curious all along about how we should be expected to feel about a planet that is clearly structured as a monarchy. The more we learn about it -- with its assasinations, coups, and intrigues -- the less appealing and more "alien" it seems to my egalitarian sensibility. Max and Liz's fairy tale romance works very well when they are the prince and princess of a mythical and symbolic environment. I'm not sure the real Twilo is going to come off so well. How sympathetic are we going to be towards a society structured on a system that has been all but abandoned on earth as corrupt and unfair?

It takes 20 years to grow a husk. The skins had them in 1950. Before growing the original husks, the skins had to determine what planet they were for, study the planet for the details and parameters of their husks, and plan the whole "go to earth" operation.

This means that the revolution on Twilo must have happened at least 70 to 100 years ago. The skins were chasing the pod people, so the podsters escape chamber, granolith and all, must have been in place quite some time before the crash. Otherwise, why plan and grow the husks? I'm not even getting into the ammount of time it took to move everything to earth by spaceship.

The revolution, and the distinct possibility of losing it, must have taken place over a fairly long period of time. Having seen what has happened with the action (as opposed to relationship) sequences, I wonder if the revolution has really been thought out.

I'm afraid I've become one of those who liked the show much better as a teen alienation allegory than as a sci-fi adventure.

Right now I could use some aspirin and chocolate.

Qfanny, Tepp doesn't need to reiterate his ROSWELL fan credentials. They are in excellent order. If you read his early posts about the deep meaning of the Max and Liz romance you would know that.

But Tepp isn't the only fan that is worried about the direction ROSWELL has taken this season. You see the doubts, disagreements and conflict all over the board (reflecting a divided nation's vote for president maybe?)

What if the producers DO see his post? This is a fan site after all, and why shouldn't they see a full range of opinions about ROSWELL? Why shouldn't they know that some (perhaps many) fans think that the increase in sci-fi action and excitement has also resulted in a decrease in credibility and emotional involvement? ROSWELL has never been as successful as it is right now. It has officially been renewed for a full 22 episodes this season, and I think season #3 is probably a safe bet as well. Clearly the WB is finally getting behind this show. So criticism of the show won't harm it at this point.

What better time to suggest that lots of us have a problem with some of the more outlandish plot twists that have been introduced? Not so much that they exist at all, but that they are introduced so hastily and with such a lack of consistency and detail?

Tepp loves ROSWELL as do I. As do you, Qfanny. That's why we bother to come here and post about it. But there are many different views about what has been going on for the last six episodes, and these opinions deserve to be aired. And deserve to be read by the producers and anyone else who cares enough to open this thread and read through it. Just because ROSWELL remains one of the better shows on TV doesn't mean it can't be better. And the point is, some people think it has actually become worse, even as it has become more popular. Tepp has a right to say that and every ROSWELL fan has a right to read that opinion, even if they don't agree.

Let me try to intervene here. Qfanny, tepp is critic in the best sense of the word. He loves Roswell enough to care about what he sees as some problematic issues in its production. And I must say that while he and I disagree at times, I do agree with much of what he said in that post. (And you know that I love Roswell.)

Producers, etc. need to get sound feedback on their productions. It is a valuable tool in the continuing need to perfect their production. I would hope that they would read tepp, hit their foreheads, and say DAMN, he's right, we have to do better next time.

Qfanny, I have to go to work now, but when I get into the office I'll e-mail you privately. I know tepp. He is a great guy and fan.

I typed a response to tepp before I read Qfanny's and Elliot's posts. I'm going to post it anyway...Here it is:

Hi Tepp!

YOUR'RE BACK!!!! See my comments below:

quote:Originally posted by tepp:
First, I'd have to agree with Lameduck that overall this episode sacrificed plausibility and coherence for dramatic timing. In other words, I thought it was extremely weak. For example, in addition to the many problems others have mentioned -- the unprotected husk chamber, the news crews, the failure of the skins to find MMIT before now or recognize them when they arrived -- consider the confrontation between Max and the skin leader.

I thought it was very uneven and did not really "flow" but I did like many of the SF elements. Perhaps what I like most of all was begin given some concrete information (sorely missing up to now) about Rosell's SF background. In this wppy we learned more about: 1) the war on the home planet; 2) the nature of the skins, and 3) Michael's death. I hate to say it, but that kind of information is hard to come by from our writers.

quote:It was the classic James Bond missed opportunity. As Max and the others start to leave, the leader telekinetically slams the door, drags Max back to the front, and then stops everything, making a big show of recognizing Max and going into this big speech about how the skins will now triumph. Of course, this gives Max time to collect his wits and prepare for the assault that finally comes after the cliched villain-speech. Even though the skin man boasts that Max will not be able to hold out against the combined force of the skin "congregation," the other skins do not immediately join him in the attack, instead waiting inexplicably for some time to add their powers to the head skin's. Of course, this gives Courtney enough time to make her sacrificial gesture of breaking whatever thingamajig she smashes that gives all the skins a big headache.

Okay-okay...you are right. They don't do action/drama well at times do they?

quote:So why does it give them a headache? -- to give all our heroes time to get away of course.

True--but honestly--we often do not get explanations for why things happen in this show (remember Liz's flashes?).

quote:Courtney tells us that the husks are organic shells the skins use to protect them from the earth's atmosphere. Her description offers nothing to suggest that the replacement husks being grown in the cellar would be connected in any way to their future inhabitants any more than I am presently connected to the pants I'm going to wear tomorrow. Perhaps the "essence" of the skins was being slowly transferred into these new husks, but nothing that was said about them made it sound that way.

True--but again, I hate to say this, but it is business as usual for this show.

quote:Anyway, contrast the attack on Max with Nicholas' assault on Isabel. Nicholas snuck up behind her and bashed her on the head when she wasn't looking. Had the skin leader blasted Max as Max was walking out, the result would likely have been the same for Max. But of course, no one ever just walks up behind James Bond and caps him. They must capture him, gloat for several minutes and, in the process, reveal their entire plan to him. Then instead of just shooting him, they suspend him 20 feet over a vat of boiling oatmeal by a rope that's being lowered about one foot a minute. Of course the busy meglomaniacal leader has to leave before Bond hits the soup, and in his absence Bond has the opportunity to persuade one of the egomaniac's beautiful henchwomen to release him -- much the role that Courtney played (even if it was Michael she did it for).

Tsk, Tsk...this one really upset you didn't it? You do angry so well too. We've missed you!

quote:So the whole thing is about timing not believability. Obviously, any story has to rely to some extent on such devices, but ever since Roswell transformed into this "improved" SciFi format, I find the mechanics of the storytelling to be more and more visible and the story itself to be less and less compelling. The beauty of the early shows was that what we didn't know couldn't hurt us. Now the SciFi threads are full of very intelligent people trying to invent plausible or at least coherent explanations for story elements that contain neither plausibility or coherence.

You are right, of course. We shouldn't have to work quite so hard to hold on to this story. A little is fun. A lot is distracting.

quote:The suggestion that Tess is originally a skin is very interesting. There's no reason to think she couldn't be. Just because the skins we've met are using the husk method doesn't mean that a skin couldn't be "reincarnated" as a human too. Tess and Max as the union of two warring factions (in the PAST, in the PAST) would be an logical arrangement given what we know of Max's home world (it would also explain how someone like Max would ever come to marry someone like Tess in the first place -- and God knows that needs explaining).

If Tess is a bio-engineered skin then many of my former reservations wouldn't be valid. Good point tepp!

quote:And what of this homeworld and its political and social structure? LSS warns that we could find that Max's character and his role in the events that have brought his world to rebellion may be unpleasant. I've been curious all along about how we should be expected to feel about a planet that is clearly structured as a monarchy. The more we learn about it -- with its assasinations, coups, and intrigues -- the less appealing and more "alien" it seems to my egalitarian sensibility. Max and Liz's fairy tale romance works very well when they are the prince and princess of a mythical and symbolic environment. I'm not sure the real Twilo is going to come off so well. How sympathetic are we going to be towards a society structured on a system that has been all but abandoned on earth as corrupt and unfair?

You know, we Americans like being royalists when it bomes to the media...we don't like it when it comes to governance.

It is great to "hear" from you again tepp. Keep in touch.

LSS

Other than that, just a couple of comments:
-I guess it's official - if Gore looses, it's because of Vanessa! he he he
-Were both Elvis references a hint that Max is surrounding himself by the wrong people, his ego is overinflated, hiding from life, eating too many fried banana sandwiches? What?
-I don't have much respect for Max's race or world - not only do they seem to have even more petty squabbles than we do, they are stupid..... if the well being of the whole town, heck... of all the Skins on Earth, depends on a couple of blue light tubes in the basement of a cheesy museum, I DO NOT PUT THOSE TUBES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STAIRS, where anybody can come and break them! I would build a stainless-steel wall around them, with 10 alarms protecting it! .... Also, if the growing husks need moisture and air to grow, much as "trees", why stiffle them with clothing?.. unless the Harvest was eminent, in which case, there is hope for survival, right? If the fruit is ready to be taken from the vine, to dislodge it a day or two before does not kill it! (Sorry, I felt bad for them as they were doing their private version of the walk in "The Night of the Living Dead", at the end. They looked like lost children to me. Somehow, I don't think they are the "evil" aliens Mom refer to in Destiny!
-And continuing with that thought: Antar IS stupid: Courtney admired Michael's intelligence because he figured out where the pictures were taken from? gheez! Any poster here would be the new Einstein there?
-I can see the writing on the wall - one or many of Roswell's future episodes will be Max against Michael or Max against Isabel or, of course, (soon, dear God, soon!): Max against Tess? Those are not very loyal beings, are they? Thank God for his Liz!!! (BTW, at least they (M/L) were touching shoulders - how sad that I'm happy because they were touching shoulders at one point!!!).
-I think the Podsters and the Skins are the same race. The only difference is that the royal faction developed technology to assimilate their DNA to human DNA, thus allowing the Royal 4 (and, hopefully, others who are here to help them), to live here indefinitely and without harm.
-I didn't see any improvement in Max's shield after Tess "helped" him. Last season, it seemed that hers were the most developed powers - why are Max's, Michael's and Isabel's improving by leaps and bounds and not hers? Lack of balance, or.. something else?
However, although she did look as she was worshipping Vanessa's picture, I did not see Grier's reaction to Tess to be more hostile than what would be expected towards an enemy or his bride!.
-The Universal Friendship League's building said Robertson - could that be a reference to Alien abductee Elizabeth Robertson, who was given healing hands in exchange for her DNA contribution to the "Graylins", and wrote that their message to us was "We are here to help us awaken".
-Finally, if Sexual Healing was on February 21st. and Venus takes 245 days to circle around the Sun, SH's anniversary would have been the day of Gomez' concert: October 25th! By those calculations, next time Venus is in the correct position, again, would be June 26th, 2001. This may finally be the straw that makes all fans turn their collective backs from Katims, et.al. LOL!

"You lived another life Max; a life completely different from this one; a life when you loved me."

That doesn't sound like an arranged marriage. Or maybe she was just lying to get him one her side.

quote:Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
Hi QFanny: Thank you for expressing my thoughts and beliefs exactly as I would have wished to say them! No matter how cheesy or silly Roswell may look sometimes, it is, by far, the best show on TV, ever!

Well, I can't make that kind of generalization about all of TV land...but I can say that I have NEVER been involved in a fan group in my entire life--let alone devote the 10-25 hrs a week to one that I do for Roswell at times. Given this reality it is easy to see why we are so filled with passion in our discussions!

quote:Having said that, I also find that Tepp's comments, together with 5 or 6 other posters, have been, from the very beginning of Roswell, the ones that I keep in my to-keep-forever files, to be read over and over (an honor according to me - LOL!).

To quote a Michaelism...ditto.

quote:I don't have much respect for Max's race or world - not only do they seem to have even more petty squabbles than we do,

ahem...we really don't know the cause of the revolution yet...but even so, earth's history has some real doozies when it comes to squabbling

quote:they are stupid..... if the well being of the whole town, heck... of all the Skins on Earth, depends on a couple of blue light tubes in the basement of a cheesy museum, I DO NOT PUT THOSE TUBES AT THE BOTTOM OF THE STAIRS, where anybody can come and break them!

<snicker> agreed.

quote:Thank God for his Liz!!!

You know--the character I have been most impressed with this season is Liz.

quote:I think the Podsters and the Skins are the same race. The only difference is that the royal faction developed technology to assimilate their DNA to human DNA, thus allowing the Royal 4 (and, hopefully, others who are here to help them), to live here indefinitely and without harm.

I am really interesting in getting this resolved. I really want to find out more about the ole' home planet in order to understand present-day alien dynamics on earth. But since this is the thrust of Season 2 (alien mythology) I suspect we will get such information in bits and pieces throughout the season.

quote:I didn't see any improvement in Max's shield after Tess "helped" him. Last season, it seemed that hers were the most developed powers - why are Max's, Michael's and Isabel's improving by leaps and bounds and not hers? Lack of balance, or.. something else?

Of course if we are just talking logic, Tess' contribution could have been simply to increase Max's stamina (aka he would not have been able to hold out as long as he did otherwise). As for why some are improving...we know why Michael's are (practice) and we can guess that the rest are now being called to use their powers more frequently and in life/death situations. But really...other than Michael...we've not been given an answer.

LSS

quote:Originally posted by Hooked:
Reading the posts I had another thought about Isabel. Why did she die on Twilo? If she helped the skins obtain power and her lover is now on the throne, why would the skins kill her? If the skins didn't kill Isabel was it Max's side that killed her for betraying them? If so, why did they clone her and bring her to Earth?

Good questions all! You got a sense that there was an element of self-sacrifice when the CW was talking to her--but it has not been made clear at all. Either:

1) the skins are telling the truth (and this is a kind of ironic plot twist for all those viewers who secretly thought Tess was a traitor), or

2) the skins are lying and trying to undermine Izzy's confidence. But this would be dangerous given the possibility of memory retrieval mentioned before by Tess (assuming Tess was telling the truth.

Sigh--it all comes down to truth...an elusive commodity at best!

LSS

Other thoughts: We know the Skins last 50 years and are at the end of that lifecycle. Does that mean they've been on Earth since 1950? Why the 3-year gap? Or, were they part of the original 1947 crash, in which case the Skins have technically passed the 50-year limit.

Are the "harvest" chambers related to the pods our podsquad emerged from? We know it takes 20 years to "grow" a Skin. Did it take 20 years for M/Mi/T/I to emerge? (Because it's implied in Sum. of 47 that it took them approx. 35 years, rather than 20)

So why does it give them a headache? -- to give all our heroes time to get away of course....

Sorry Qfanny, even though I do agree in principal with you: "something more than sex, violence, and the occult," this one was a little cultish, and TEPP sure has a way with words.

Gotta go

To tell you the truth - I don't believe ANYTHING the skins are saying. I think they are hatching plot inside of plot. They want to unnerve Isabel and put ideas into Michael's head. "Your enemies are known by the evil within." (the momogram) The skins are EVIL and LIARS. Nobody should trust them - certainly not the pod squad.

If it is revealed that Tess's original name was Bree, I'm gonna spew.

question number one: EOTW. Future Max comes and tells Liz that the skins are taking over that Isabel and Michael are dead and pretty soon everyone else will be.
Harvest: the atmosphere of this world is corrosive to our lifeform so we have to have husk to survive.

Are they implying that the skins are comming to destroy earth? I took it at first as a sign that they were going to conquer us but if our atmosphere is poison I hardly thing that would be likely.

Second Question:
Courtney seems to be a lively kind of girl. WC seem to be very passionate and lively too so why are all the inhabitants of this little village walking around like someone slip them a few too many drams of prozac?
I keep expecting to hear the theme song to Deliverance any minute during that funeral.. what happen to blending in? and no one noticed when she was running for congress that she came from the town of the living dead?

Third question:: If they are all from the same planet and they are in the middle of a civil war then why are the Podster earth friendly while the skins have to have husk to survive? I would think were dealing with different worlds here not just one planet?

Oh well overall I am happy with the show ! it has improved so much from just locker hanging and slug mating.

That was an antique hearse. The mannequin you saw was demonstrating its use. Evidently, that barn was used to display antique vehicles- note the end scene looking over the wheel of one of them.

Why did Isabel die? My guess is that Kavar killed her after she helped him. Not a lot of information to go on, but this seems right to me.

So we know:

==
Max- was indecisive back then. (I've been trying to decide whether he's Hamlet or Romeo. Both of them died in the end, so we know that things aren't going to be easy.)

Isabel betrayed her brpther in a way that would help Kavar and the Skins.

Michael stayed loyal to Max.

Tess- ?
==

So we know there was a problem. Max failed to act. Isabel disobeyed her brother and king. Her actions evidently didn't bring their desired result, probably because she was counting on Michael helping her and he refused. So as a result of all of the Podsters doing something wrong, they lost the war and were killed. Now the Skins are focusing all the blame on poor Isabel. :mad

Side note (since it is not sci-fi): I LOVED Maria's line to Michael right after Courtney expalins her hero worship. Paraphrasing:
Maria: Michael, if you can hear me over the sound of your rapidly inflating ego...

What better bribe, to get her to go over to the Copper Springs Skins' side?

I think Tess was trying to get a "flash" from it, and to remember what went on during her rescue. (Remember Michael getting a "flash" from Atherton's key- in Morning After?)

As for the look on Tess's face when she was introduced to the Whittakers: given their rustic accent, etc., I think perhaps she was trying not to laugh. (For that matter, Emilie is Austrailian; perhaps she was trying not to laugh.)

The seeming admiration by Tess was both an effective cover for looking at the picture (couldn't tell her the truth!), and a convenient opening for finding out more about the Congresswoman. Which she reported to Isabel a scene or two later, you'll recall.

Riiight. We have all these naked people standing around, but it's OK.
It's "integral to the plot".

As for the look on Tess's face when she was introduced to the Whittakers: given their rustic accent, etc., I think perhaps she was trying not to laugh. (For that matter, Emilie is Austrailian; perhaps she was trying not to laugh.)

The seeming admiration by Tess was both an effective cover for looking at the picture (couldn't tell her the truth!), and a convenient opening for finding out more about the Congresswoman. Which she reported to Isabel a scene or two later, you'll recall.

I could understand how this might explain that odd scene but the clincher for me was the music played during Tess's flashback to Surprise. The flashback music seemed almost reminiscent, as though they were fond memories of the Congresswoman and that whole incident. Now I don't know about the rest of you but I wouldn't remember being kidnapped and tourtured as something I'd fondly reminisce over. That's where I can't believe that she was only trying to pump CW's mother for information. There was something significantly off with that scene.

So is "Once and Future King" a pun on FM while also borrowing from our Representations and Interpretations of Season 1?

No, it's a reference to Max who was King on Twilo, and was (if victorious) going to be again. Think King Arthur.

"Like" Isabel ?!?
If she were the beloved of K' var, then surely they wouldn't have been roughing her up like that before taking her back to be his "bride". Unsafe!
My take is that K' var romanced Valandra into betraying her side; then when that was done, he betrayed her, and killed her. The point of taking Isabel (not the others) back to K' var is for him to have her as a trophy of the previous dynasty, and his victory. As a prisoner to abuse for his pleasure, humiliate as a show of power, etc. If she doesn't remember any of this, how delicious to torture an innocent! Think Imperial Rome.

These are evil aliens. Certainly evil, certainly alien; but the evil is all too familiar...

(I put up a thread on The Politics Of..., where I said something to this effect.)

It seemed like she did sincerely want to know, that there was feeling behind the question, and not just a trick to gather info. You want to know about someone you admire. Did Tess admire CW's politics on the homeworld, her strength in her beliefs, or was it more personal. It struck me as personal. Like she already knew a liitle bit about CW, perhaps from the past life, but wanted to know more. I don't know, it was weird, like the 'Mother' comment from Iz. Like where did that come from - guilt over frying her? Was CW Kvar's Mother in the past life? The relationship possiblilities - ... I'm so excited I can't wait to learn more!!

LSS: You raised a question on page 1, and again later I believe, about why the podsters were given the form they were given (DNA hybrids) rather than another form, like the husks. Ah, I found it, here's your quote:

A couple of comments--we have yet to find out why Max's people chose a bioengineered life form for our podsters. True we know of the human source of their powers--but we've never been told that their forms were chosen for that reason. Nor have we be told that their forms were chosen for protection from earth's atmosphere.

I figured that Max's people chose a bioengineered life form for the podsters, or were forced to find a different way to give them a disguise to fit in on earth, because they had been killed on the home planet. Dead, they couldn't just be transported to earth and deposited into a skin/husk (or exist as shapeshifters, if they are Nasedos). They had to be reborn, literally, into another life, in order to exist. Maybe the choice to bioengineer them was strategic, maybe it was necessity.

If all the Skins, or Nasedos, or whatever race Max is part of could all just be reincarnated every time they bit the dust, wouldn't all of them take advantage of that technology? I bet they can't. So maybe mixing the species was the only way to give the podsters a new "life", based on human biology.

But we don't know enough yet to determine if that's the case. However, even if straightforward reincarnation were possible, and they could have just reconstituted the royal four from their respective "essences" in original alien form, they still needed to have some way to appear normal here on this planet, since they apparently needed to be sent here to be safe, rather than being raised in secret on the home planet.

SO. Either the podsters are a genetic mixture of Nasedo alien and human, or Skin alien and human, or some other alien race and human. Maybe as young Nasedos they wouldn't have been able to survive here for whatever reason; they couldn't shapeshift until puberty, or they would be too helpless and vulnerable and obvious as glowing three foot tall nasty tempered little buggers, so there needed to be a plausible disguise. That disguise being adorable, naked, vulnerable six year olds, cute, homeless and ready to be adopted by humans.

I know this thought isn't complete but I feel I've written too much already.

-WhirlingGirl

First and for most, I think it's great that so many people would speak up for their fellow fan. No really, I mean it, I've been put into my place more times than naught. But I am deeply sadden that I left the impression I was coming across with some sort of personal vendetta against another. I now realise that I made a mistake to post my thoughts without reading the entire thread first. I bet you were all wondering what's up Qfanny's butt today, hm?

Clearly, my mind is on other things right now. Things I rather not discuss.

I am sorry. I am sorry. I am sorry.

SF

No, there something about all this that just doesn't make sense. There is something about the timeline that is not following right.

I'll have to check, and PLEASE correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't the Gomez concert on a Friday night? I thought Max said that in TEOTW when first asking Liz to it. I went to the transcripts.

LIZ: Max, we have to stop this. We have to. I am telling you that we have to.

MAX: Go out with me on Friday. There's a Gomez concert in Santa Fe. I have tickets.

LIZ: No. No, Max. I can't go out with you ever again. Please stop doing this.

I thought they made it clear that Harvest occured immediately after TEOTW.

So, does Roswell have school on Saturday? I know that at my high school we had sports and clubs doing stuff on Saturday, but these kids are too busy with jobs and fighting evil aliens to be in extracircular activities.

SF

Going back to orbs. Pierce may have said that they found the orb in 1947, but they only found the one orb. I cannot figure out why, but I am convinced that Mommo-gram was made, and one of the orbs arrived after 1947.

If there are two species or two races of the same species, then would it make since for each species to have one orb? What if the orbs arrived seperately. Then what were those visions Liz saw then in SH off? They could not have been from the 1947 crash. Because the orb she witnessed buried could not have been the same orb that the government found in 1947. Did Liz find the skins orb?

Now, regarding the two races or two species ideas. Yes, there are two races on Twilo, but are there two species? I am slowing leaning over that way.

I wondered what it means to wear a husk. I have a hard time relating to Courtney's example, e.g. the trees. Can you change in and out of them like clothes? Did Nasedo have a special husk that allowed him to change or age the molecular structure?

Going back to powers, why did Nasedo say the podster's powers were human ones. The SSers, Podlings and Skins have almost identical powers, and they are 100% non-human. If these qualities are natural abilities on Twilo, (changing molecular structure, hand guns, telekentics) then would they even be considered by Nasedo as "powers" or "gifts". They would just be normal abilities, right. It's from our perspective that they are unusual.

So the only thing that the Royal Four can do that we have not seen from the other aliens is "connect" with humans. Is this their human power?

But the dates really bother me in this episode. I would appreciate anyone's help in figuring this out.

First, I don't think Max was a bad leader in his former life. Keep in mind that he was being undermined by Vilandra which means she was privy to alot of confidential things that could have used against him, thereby putting him a bad light with the rest of the populace. This does not mean that Max did something horrible or that his skills as a leader were lacking. If you remember, Nicholas mentions to Isabel that they were all "legends" in their world. Remember when he said that now that they were trapped in teenage bodies, the "legendary aura" has lost its edge (something like that). This brings me to my second point:

All of the Skins have retained their past memories. Why have the podsters completely lost theirs? Is it because they are hybrids? Nicholas remembers Michael and Isabel's "other selves" quite clearly. Also, I read in previous posts that Greer loathed Tess. Greer was not talking to Tess when he made the statement "You don't remember me, but I remember you. I've been waiting for this for a long time." He was talking to MAX! In fact, Greer's whole conversation in the funeral home was directed at Max. Note also that Max was the only one of the three that he pulled towards the gasket (he didn't touch Tess or Liz). There is a definite history between Greer and King Max (would love to know what Max did to him).

I don't know what to make of Courtney yet, but I believe she may be part of the plan to separate the podsters.

Another question: If the Skins are 100% alien, are their powers stronger than the hybrids who are 50% human and 50% alien? Also, what makes the royal four so legendary and special? Why did their race decide to clone only the four of them? This may answer the question as to why Max is a King, Michael his second, ect. It sounds like something about them, specifically, elevated them to that status. Of course, it could simply be a sovereign nation with lineage passed to the next generation. But then why is it so essential that the four of them remain together as a unit? There must be something about them that makes the Skins fear them and their own race look to them as their last hope.

Just my thoughts.

just a few quick questions...

When Is and Max approach the Friendhsip league, why did they pan up to show the top of the building? They show the triangular top with three windows and the word Robertson. Why pan up and show this?? The significance?? Someone mentioned an abductee named Robertson? Can anyone expound on this a bit? Also, is there any significance to the pointed arch top encasing three rounded windows? Anyone specialize in renassaince architectural designs?

when Isabel follows Nicholas, why do they show a pilgrim type woman in the cart? They focus, pan up on her, she is a dummy of some sorts, in a pilgrimish dress, why why why, what does it mean? Someone mentioned that it is a dummy to show the functioning of the relic hearse... I think it must have significance beyond that. maybe it's as simple as further pointing out that this isn't a legit funeral, just a representation... any thoughts?

Lastly, a thought about what Courtney said about the environment being corrosive to them.. that combined with remembering Grant's geological survey in the middle of nowhere for radiation for a big chemical plant that would futher destroy the environment (I always felt that if Grant isn't a skin, then he has unknowingly been hired by a skin organization)... for some reason this immediately triggers the thought of terraforming... perhaps the skins are attempting to make the planet livable for themselves? Although Nicholas' vow to bring Viladra/Is back to Kivar suggests the possiility of travel between the two worlds, clearly the skins do not have access to such technology else they would get out of here since their time is now effectively up. Which of course further leads me to believe that the Granolith is a travelling vessel type thing of some sort.. what do you think?

--KATE

PS, Tepp, I really really enjoyed your post. Well thought out criticisms that were very valid and really made sense. I don't want to see this deteriorate into shootout at the OK Corrall just replacing who can draw guns faster with who can get their hand up faster I'm keeping the faith though

quote:Originally posted by Sioux:
First, I don't think Max was a bad leader in his former life. Keep in mind that he was being undermined by Vilandra which means she was privy to alot of confidential things that could have used against him, thereby putting him a bad light with the rest of the populace. This does not mean that Max did something horrible or that his skills as a leader were lacking.

But we have been told that there was a revolution on the home planet. And we do know that Max was on the throne. Therefore it does stand to reason that someone was not happy with the status quo--that someone was not happy with Max and his policies. Only time will tell whether their attitude was warranted.

quote: All of the Skins have retained their past memories. Why have the podsters completely lost theirs? Is it because they are hybrids?

I think you may be right in a sense. One gets the sense that the four were "reborn" --even if they are "6" when we first see them. And they grow and age as earth-normals. But the skins do not. It is almost like the husks enable them to switch shells, but such an action does not entail "starting over." Remember Courtney saying that their shells don't "age"? Apparently as they switch shells their memories remain intact. They can tell us a lot about our podsters.

The question is.............can we believe them?

LSS

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
Going back to orbs. Pierce may have said that they found the orb in 1947, but they only found the one orb. I cannot figure out why, but I am convinced that Mommo-gram was made, and one of the orbs arrived after 1947.

Okay--we are told that the FBI special unit recovered one from the '47 crash. And we know that Max recovered one in SH. Of course we don't know WHEN the orb in SH was buried, but that flight scene could lend itself to a chase prior to the capture of the alien carrying it. I don't know, Qfanny....why do you think it arrived later?

quote:If there are two species or two races of the same species, then would it make since for each species to have one orb?

Again, we return to the original function of the orb. If it is just a recording/communication device it doesn't make sense that there would only be two...unless they came with the royal four designed to be used with two of the royals each. In fact, as a story element that might explain the instructions that have to be used in pairs.

Qfanny...I can't believe we're talking orbs again!

quote: What if the orbs arrived seperately. Then what were those visions Liz saw then in SH off? They could not have been from the 1947 crash. Because the orb she witnessed buried could not have been the same orb that the government found in 1947.

But one of the aliens could have had it and buried it before they were captured in '47.

quote:Now, regarding the two races or two species ideas. Yes, there are two races on Twilo, but are there two species? I am slowing leaning over that way.

I wondered what it means to wear a husk. I have a hard time relating to Courtney's example, e.g. the trees. Can you change in and out of them like clothes? Did Nasedo have a special husk that allowed him to change or age the molecular structure?

You know, they mentioned that they existed like a parasite. Two SF shows (DS9 and Stargate) have characters who exist in a symbiotic union with another entity inside of them. The difference between these characters and the skins, however, is that the symbiots share a body with the body's original owner. One doesn't get the idea that the skins "share" anything with the templates of their husks other that the basic human form.

quote:Going back to powers, why did Nasedo say the podster's powers were human ones. The SSers, Podlings and Skins have almost identical powers, and they are 100% non-human. If these qualities are natural abilities on Twilo, (changing molecular structure, hand guns, telekentics) then would they even be considered by Nasedo as "powers" or "gifts". They would just be normal abilities, right. It's from our perspective that they are unusual.

Good going, Qfanny. This is a very important observation. If these powers are part of everyday alien (aka skin) existence...then it is hard to see why our writers went out of their way to tell us that our podsters' powers were part of their human legacy. It would have been better to make them part of their alien heritage and keep them consistant with the skins' characterization.

You know, sometimes I find trying to understand the WHY of our writers' actions an almost alien endeavor in itself!

LSS

Qfanney
I know how much you love your orb theories. I have to say I'm sceptical, but here's another option. There are definite time gaps in the flashes from SH. So potentially the crash flash was from 1947. The one alien that escaped took the SH orb. The skins arrive in 1950 and steal the orb from the escaped alien, or he's part of their faction and turns it over to them. The flash of the orb being buried actually happens in 1950 or later after the skin tampering has occured. Do the army uniforms in SH and Summer of 47 look the same? Would they have changed appreciably in three years? I don't know, but that could be another option.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
I wondered what it means to wear a husk. I have a hard time relating to Courtney's example, e.g. the trees. Can you change in and out of them like clothes?

Well, a tree's bark protects it against it's environment. The outer layers of a tree trunk are woody and dead, providing the support structure that allows trees to get so big. It's only the central pulp that's actually alive, carrying nutrients up and down from the leaves to the roots. I found it interesting that the husks had 3-d form. If they were truly something you just pulled on over your own morphology, I'd expect them to be flat (2-d) like clothes. Courtney also talked about parasitizing the husks. All parasites eventually kill their hosts, so it's no wonder the husks don't last forever. They're slowly being broken down by the alien parasites inside of them. Makes you wonder what the alien parasites look like.

SF

It seems to me that, based on the color of the uniforms, the atmosphere, the tension, etc., which we witnessed in "Summer of '47", the time frame did not correspond to Liz's visions in "SH". Those guys had green outfits, more atuned to post-WWII! So, the alien running and hiding from that army may have been carrying the "Others" orb (somehow I think there is yet another race/species out there - the ones you can see only by the evil within. The Skins are not intrinsically evil, at least I don't think so... of course, I may change my mind next Monday!).

The Royal Four, picked to come to Earth because of their Specialness, whatever it was/is.... could they have been sent to Earth to fight the ultimate battle because it's here that they would find the Fifth Element: Perfect Love, the one thing they needed to vanquish evil in its purest incarnation and without which they can never succeed? Could Mom have picked Earth because here they would find... Liz!!! (Gheez, sorry, I just gave myself chills and I don't do that nearly enough! LOL!).

BTW, somebody asked - an Australian woman, Elizabeth Robertson, claimed to have been abducted and have lived among Graylings for some time. The surprising thing in this tale is that she started curing people by the laying of hands and knowing scientific facts about a miriad of things that she could not have known before her "abduction". She claimed they asked her for a contribution of her DNA and she gladly gave it. She also brought a message: "They've come to help us awaken".

I posted this question on the first SF thread. I'm still waiting for the answer, but the symbolism of that journey vision sequence in SH suggested the idea. I discounted it then, because it seemed ruled out unless the story involved time travel, which I wasn't expecting back then. But I started keeping an eye out for time-travel hints, and concluded last summer that time travel probably was in the story, because of the abundance of pointers in that direction. So now I think more of the idea. And by shapeshifter's axiom, it is more likely to be true now that more of us have reached the same conjecture.

I don't know about the other factors, but for me the color of the uniforms does not seem to point to a time difference. When I was in the US Army in the early 70's, we had uniforms of both colors -- green "fatigues" for heavy work or field operations, khakis for more formal situations.

But there might still be a time difference, whether or not the uniforms are a clue.

LSS: Orbs came up because I was playing with the timeline in my head, and SF said something that got me going on it again. Now you have another question. Truly, I am starting to be convinced that timetravel is difficult, and I have been thinking a lot about Nemo's posts on the possibilities of time travel in Roswell. In this thinking, somehow I got it back to the orbs. The fact the beeper makes the exact same sound as them... Well. It was an excuse to dive back into them.

But I am way more interested in the timeline at this moment. I think we may have some bubbling going on between the old and new one. Just look at the confusion with the dates of Iz's birthday and CW death. And why was there no postmark date on the postmark? That would have been helpful.

I just want to clarify my post on alien powers before someone calls me on it. When I said 100% non-human, I was refering to the powers themselves, not the SSers, Skins, and Podlings. The podlings afterall, are a mix.

And I'm wondering where the Beeper Boys all are. Except for Courtney's Back Street Boys CD, they haven't entered the scene since Brody.

Also: are very many of us assuming that Kavar is Grant?

And TEPP, I also loved your critique line: "Then instead of just shooting him, they suspend him 20 feet over a vat of boiling oatmeal by a rope that's being lowered about one foot a minute." But maybe if he was suspended by an alien-strength spaghetti noodle the General Audience of the thread would appreciate it more?
Okay, nobody ever gets my jokes. Goodnight all.

Qfanny -- whatever you said was gone by the time I got here, but say whatever you want. I promise I can take it. Nevertheless, I thank my pals LSS and Elliott for vouching for me. The second half of last season, I often spent several hours a night working these boards, but I just can't do that anymore (I should be in bed now), but let me offer one anecdote.

I friend of mine called me in desperation immediately after Harvest. He'd forgotten to set his VCR and had totally missed the first half of the episode. He wanted to know if I had taped it and if he could borrow the tape so he could dub his own copy. I told him to come on over and pick up the tape. I didn't care that I would be without it for a couple of days because I have two VCRs and tape TWO COPIES of every episode. You never know what could go wrong!? (I also have another backup plan because I know my mother's taping them too).

If I may, let me take a stab at your orb question. I have always assumed that both orbs arrived with the ship that crashed in 47, the one with the pods. Both orbs were found in the immediate vicinity of the crash. Since we know the ship crashed, I think it's safe to assume that the crash site was not the intended landing zone, but even if it were why would a later party hide the orb at that site? Liz's vision shows it being hastily buried in an area where troops were searching -- presumably to hide it from the troops. If they aren't investigating the 47 crash, what are they doing? There has never been any suggestion of a second Roswell crash. Finally, Pierce says that the orbs only work in pairs, and that's how MMIT use them.

It seems logical that the two orbs were sent along with the pods so that our gang could later use them. SF's theory is interesting, but I'd have to say that it is substituting a difficult and unsupported theory in place of the obvious and simple one. Though there are "time gaps" in Liz's vision, they seem to depict the journey to earth, the crash, and its immediate aftermath. The visions end with the burial of the orb, and revealing the location of the orb seemed to be the whole point of the visions. It's just too bad that that final piece of information hadn't taken about 5 more minutes to crystallize.

By the way, Shapeshifter, I can't take credit for the oatmeal. That scenario comes from a very old parody of The Man From U.N.C.L.E. in Mad Magazine.

Now, if I hadn't been so preoccupied with spitting venom last night, I might have asked the question I wanted Maria to ask Courtney: why are all these aliens on Earth anyway? It appears that the skins main goal has been to find MMIT and not to undertake some other plot with Earth itself as the object. If the displaced ruling family sent the dead Royals here to hide them, that plan seems somewhat ill-conceived since there's about 100 evil aliens for each one of them -- that we know of so far. Let's hope Bluecornmoon's theory is the right one.

Finally, I have also been wondering lately about the powers issue, about why all the different races and forms of aliens seem to be comparably equipped. When future Max and Liz were in the granolith chamber, it sounded like explosions were going off outside. But so far, none of the aliens we've seen have used any mechanical or technological weapons, only their own powers.

Or some type of power core??

About Courtney's husk, since it takes 20 years to grow a husk from spore to final product, when Courtney defected from the main Skin group(speculation), they probaly didn't want to waste it. Someone else may be able to use it, if there is so problem with their intended original husk.
What I am curious about is how do they transfer from one husk to another,a spirit like gas or a sloth/slug???

If they do have contact, wouldn't they have the numbers, plus weaponry, to overwhelm the Podsters? (Maybe this means that the Skins don't have contact, for whatever reason, so that the plot will work.)

I want to add something to the whole Nicholas telling Iz that he was going to take her to K'Var. I went back to watch this scene and here is what's said:

Nicholas: Your destiny is with us. With K'Var. He's waiting to hear that we've found you....I'm here to take you back to him. The leader of the rebellion. The man who currently sits on your brother's tarnished throne. The man for whom you sacrificed a kingdom. Your lover, K'Var.

I'm not so sure he is on the home planet. Who's to say that he isn't on Earth? At the end of Destiny we saw several of the signals go off and I have to assume that their are aliens all over the world. Nicholas does say that he (K'Var) is the leader of the rebellion. Part of the rebellion has moved to Earth, to find and destroy the Royal Four. It is very likely that "the leader of the rebellion" is here to oversee his troops if you will. Any thoughts?

I wondered what it means to wear a husk. I have a hard time relating to Courtney's example, e.g. the trees. Can you change in and out of them like clothes? Did Nasedo have a special husk that allowed him to change or age the molecular structure?
[/B]

--For some reason (purely my speculation) I get the feeling that it's energetically expensive either to a) grow the husks or b) change from one husk to another. Why else would the Skins only do it at the last minute when their current husks are about to fail? I don't get the sense that the husks are 'disposable' in any way - it seems to take a lot of time and resources to grow them from "spores to maturity". Otherwise, there'd be no need for this elaborate "Harvest" other than, of course, the needs of the writers to get everyone in one place.

Perhaps once the husks are on, they're somehow fused or joined with the aliens in a way that would be extremely painful or difficult to separate until the proper moment - which would also explain why they wait until the end of the lifespan of the husk, to allow it to start to break down and release them.

I *also* found it really interesting they refer to the husk as having a *lifespan* at all. A husk seems to be a biological organism as much as anything else - otherwise their relationship with the Skins couldn't precisely be termed 'parasitic', and they're described by Nicholas as being 'nourished' rather than 'constructed' or 'assembled'. This implies that the husks could survive without the alien presence inside. I reallyreallyreally hope we get to see Courtney change husks so I can make some sense of this.

If the Podsters' side had the ability to construct a human/alien hybrid (don't even get me started on the science involved in this one), is it plausible that the Skin's side had the technology to construct a fully 'human' skin - but keep the consciousness of the alien separate from the body in some way such that their 'essence' or 'soul' could be transferred from one host to another. Shades of Jax from ST:DS9, but still. It helps to explain my *big* problem with this episode, which Qfanny touched on:

quote:
Going back to powers, why did Nasedo say the podster's powers were human ones. The SSers, Podlings and Skins have almost identical powers, and they are 100% non-human. If these qualities are natural abilities on Twilo, (changing molecular structure, hand guns, telekentics) then would they even be considered by Nasedo as "powers" or "gifts". They would just be normal abilities, right. It's from our perspective that they are unusual.

[/B]

This is something that bothered me ever since "Surprise". Nasedo *did* say that their powers were purely a result of their ability to use the latent abilities present in their human form. The possibility exists that he was lying, but if he was telling the truth then WHY are the Skins able to do everything that the Podsters are? If the skins are fully alien merely wrapped up in a crunchy human-looking shell, then how are they able to manipulate matter in the same way, unless the husks themselves are completely human, and there's something about the alien mind that allows it to unlock the latent abilities of the human brain.

Otherwise, it seems that the Skins are able to exercise these powers merely by being aliens, which would suggest that everyone back on Twilo has these abilities, which would also support the idea that the Roswell aliens (skins, SS, or podsters) and full, unhybridized humans may be related in some way.

Sorry for the spam, science just gets me buzzing. Oh, and I suppose this is my official delurk. Y'all are really thought-provoking, and I'll try not to embarrass myself.

Jenna

Since creepy guy asked them if they were there for the Harvest, I'm assuming that means that the body switch was to occur that day or that week. Perhaps the bodies had only recently become clothed to facilitate the switch, so they wouldn't all wake up naked or something? That might explain the lack of nudity.

Also, I find it just strange that the skins came in approximately 1950, and the husks last 50 years and it takes 20 to incubate a new one... what were they DOING for the first 30 years they were here?? Why wait till the last second to do this? That defies logical reasoning... just because you can use something for 50 years doesn't mean you shouldn't upgrade whenever possible. They should be on their second or third husks at this point! Doesn't make sense (well, except for from a story telling, skin flying POV)...

--KATE

The Destiny Editor did us all a disservice, because one of the cut scenes in that ep is a part of Mom's speech, which said: "You have to fight the evil ones who want to take over Earth and with that knowledge help to free us... we wait for you,....!". I think we'll soon have corroboration on this!

As for the orbs, Tepp is right, yet again, the orbs work in twos. The thing that puzzled me between "Summer of 47" and "SH" was the calm of the first and the hassle of the latter. Uniform color was not that important (and yes, I'm aware that we are talking about two different days, but still...).

If anybody is interested, the day of the actual crash, there was an unusual weather phenomenon that happened outside Roswell, N.M. Two fronts came together violently over that town, and caused an electrical storm, the likes of which they had never seen in that area before. Almost like a tornado, very high winds. The theories are that the two ships got caught in the vortex and lightening and one of the ships crashed against the side of a mountain and the other exploded in mid-air, probably because it was recipient of a particularly strong electric current (lightening). The 4 aliens that survived where in the first ship!

Did anybody notice in the promos for "Wipe-Out", that Liz steps over the green blow-up alien doll? hmmm......

quote:Originally posted by Lameduck:
While rewatching Harvest last night (I still don't think much of it but even so, it's still Roswell) Courtney tells Maria "I came in 1950, do the math". I always assumed the crash in 1947 occurred because the skins shot the ship down, but if the skins came in 1950, what caused the original crash?

Only our writers know for sure. They could argue that: 1) a fight broke out on board and the navigator was preoccupied/killed, 2) an illness was raging through the crew and the control room was understaffed, 3) there was a traitor on board on a suicide mission who screwed up the equipment....the possibilities are endless.

quote:[B} Or are skin arrivals staggered. If so that implies the skins still have contact with their home which is supported by Nicholas telling Iz he'd take her to K'var. If there's still contact, why can't the skins that have been here for 50 years go home when their time is up.[/B]

Good question!

quote:Second thing, CW told Iz "you betrayed your brother", not "you betrayed your brother the king". CW also also wasn't sure who Vilandra was. Does anyone remember reading spoilers last year that Michael was Tess's brother?

Actully I don't think the omission of "the King" is necessarily significant...but being unsure of who Izzy was is!

Speaking of recognition...it just occured to me that the momogram said that the only way to recognize the enemy was the "evil within"....did she miss that trail of dead skin we've seen this season?

Good questions Lameduck!

LSS

Nicholas: Your destiny is with us. With K'Var. He's waiting to hear that we've found you....I'm here to take you back to him. The leader of the rebellion. The man who currently sits on your brother's tarnished throne. The man for whom you sacrificed a kingdom. Your lover, K'Var.
To me this sounds like K'Var is on Planet Twilo--unless maybe the hovercraft theory?

Either way, we haven't seen Grant since Surprise when he had that fresh cut on his neck that looked like the same wire fence that tore Is's gown got him.

Re the "human powers," recall that they are "evolved" some thousands of years.

And Courtney said the husks were like trees that they lived off of parasitically.

Guess they're not energy beings. What in our atmosphere would be corrosive to energy. Perhaps they are more fluid based. Oh what am I saying.

I'm not entirely convinced Grant is a Skin, though the timing of his arrival is highly coincidental. And I do not think he is K'var, unless K'var is traveling between worlds. Nope, I think Kvar is on Antar, 'currently sits on your brother's tarnished throne.' I took this literally.

The human powers thing bugs me. What could the common link be that enables all these somewhat diffent races to have powers in common? Is it something specific to human DNA? Do the spores contain human DNA mixed with something else? Are these 'space suits' the Skins wear another form of hybridyzation?
Do these alien races even have 'powers' on their world? Or is the whole powers thing intrinsically human? I mean in reality is telekenesis a documented fact, does it really exist? Do any of you know?

Quittin time. I'm running away from my job now. Bye.

Well, perhaps they only shed when the husk begins to wear out & break down. I think I got this from Courtney in Harvest (?).

Otherwise, isn't evil Nicolas "within" his human-seeming husk?

Also, where are the rest of Max's people? Surely they (M/Mi/I/T) are not expected to defeat the entire fraction of Skins by themselves! A lot of speculation on more pods exisiting is being made. Are they good podlings or evil podlings? How much of an influence are the humans going to have on the "war". Wow, so many questions, so little answers!

Am I the only one who has a problem with the mommogram's rather trite "evil within" comment in light of the subsequent evidence? I think there is alot so far to show that it is far from clear that the skins are actually evil, despite Harvest portraying them mostly as sinister redneck caricatures. But Courtney doesn't seem to be evil, and she's a skin; if they are all evil "within," that sounds pretty irreversible, so how do you explain her? Politically misguided she might be, to put her faith in a short order cook with poor hygiene and bad hair, but so far, evil she isn't.

And it doesn't seem to be a matter of methods vs. intent, either. Nasedo became a very sympathetic character right before he died (and had a remarkably acute sense of humor for a life form that supposedly lacks emotions). We forgave him his frequent homicidal tendencies, and even for molesting Liz, because his intentions were to protect the podsters. Well, Pierce's intentions were to protect the Earth, and though I personally couldn't get enough of the man onscreen, he would clearly qualify as "evil" in the Roswell universe. So what's the distinction, really?

Though I vaguely fear the possibility of Roswell devolving into a star trek-like mishmash of superficial political intrigue masquerading as deep social commentary (for all you trekkies, don't kill me for saying that), so far I am actually enjoying the increasing moral complexity of the podsters' world. I think it's a good metaphor for the process of growing up; most issues are not easily, neatly labelled and dismissed. Though in my opinion, there are usually simple answers to most problems, it takes a lot of hard work and truth-seeking to find said answers.

Anyway, just wondering. Any thoughts?

-WhirlingGirl

******ORB WARNING*******

I wasn't planning on coming in here to discuss more about orbs. But I saw a few posts saying the orbs only work in pairs. I totally disagree with this! When Max and Liz found the orb, it was working. It made noise. It produced light. Topolsky was the person that said they only worked in pairs. Topolsky was crazy in this episode. She also asked to be abducted too. Even if she believe in what she said, the likelihood that her facts were straight is slim. How would the government know this at all? (I'll stop there, it may be better to PM if you want to discuss further.)

******NEW TOPIC*****

Okay, I'm starting to feel better about the HUSKS. I was thinking that the Skins could change from husk to husk like changing clothes. Would doing so be shapeshifting as we know it? But there are big problems with this idea. Mainly, it takes 20 years to grow them, and I doubt TicTac knew what Dr. M or Hank would look like that far in advance. Unless he used the granolith. Second, what about the wall. That was not a husk was it?

Oh, I get it. It finally clicked. The husk Michael was carrying was Courtney's new shell.

Evil within:
I don't know what the heck mommy was refering too anymore than I did in May. I was beginning to wonder if this is some sort of pyschological evil. But Max and Michael did sense something. What was it? Was it a skin? Why couldn't they see it? If it was a skin, why didn't Michael see evil from Courtney. Is evil an attitude that they can pick up? (Like the eerie feeling from the ppl in AZ) Or is evil refering to a physical trait? All along I was thinking it was a physical trait, but maybe it's all a mental game instead.

I'm thinking of double agents--both Skins and Shapeshifters, as well as humans--that the only way to tell who's naughty and who's nice is the 'evil within' because not all of any one kind are evil. Hmmm...so if Kyle kisses Tess, what will he see within her? And was Nasedo evil? And did Michael have time to see anything evil or not evil within Courtney?

Tune in next week...

Evil within:
I don't know what the heck mommy was refering too anymore than I did in May. I was beginning to wonder if this is some sort of pyschological evil. But Max and Michael did sense something. What was it? Was it a skin? Why couldn't they see it? If it was a skin, why didn't Michael see evil from Courtney. Is evil an attitude that they can pick up? (Like the eerie feeling from the ppl in AZ) Or is evil refering to a physical trait? All along I was thinking it was a physical trait, but maybe it's all a mental game instead.[/B]

I always considered the 'evil within' as just that, a character trait of evil, corruption, wickedness or whatever you call it. I've always considered Pierce evil. He may have convinced himself that he was just trying to protect Earth, but it was evident by his actions that his nature was corrupt. He didn't care who he hurt as long as he accomplished his task (i.e. the means justify the end).

CW certainly appeared to have the 'evil within' as she brutalizes Tess in order to gain the information she seeks.

Max certainly 'felt/perceived' something in AN. What it was or how he knew about it was never clearly presented. Perhaps it was an 'evil' perception.

Watching the writers play this out will prove interesting. What is their definition of 'evil'?

Am I the only one who has a problem with the mommogram's rather trite "evil within" comment in light of the subsequent evidence? (...)
Anyway, just wondering. Any thoughts?

-WhirlingGirl

Stop the Presses !
Alert Maxcedo! Reggie's about to change his mind! Or at least revise his thinking.

Pierce and Liz are definitely human, but only one had evil within. Courtney and Nicolas are both Skins, but only one seems to have evil within. "Harding" and Sheriff Valenti did not seem to be Good Guys at first, but they did not prove to have evil within.

Perhaps the point of the Mom-o-gram was that the podsters (and the rest of us?) should judge each being on its own merits? That we should not generalize that one species, race, or kind is Evil, or Good. One can only distinguish Good Guys from Bad Guys...
by the evil within.

"Though I vaguely fear the possibility of Roswell devolving into a star trek-like mishmash of superficial political intrigue masquerading as deep social commentary (for all you trekkies, don't kill me for saying that), so far I am actually enjoying the increasing moral complexity of the podsters' world. I think it's a good metaphor for the process of growing up..."

I'm a trekkie, but I agree with you. I'm enjoying the unfolding picture of the homeworld we're getting precisely because it IS so petty and sad. Of all the things we've ascribed to little big-eyed aliens over the years, who would have thought the reality would be so pitiable? ("The reality" --! Have I bought into this story, or what?? )

I remain firmly in the mythic camp, and I remain firmly of the belief that the show is being true to its coming-of-age origins. As a former teenager myself, I find it a harrowing depiction of the inexplicable agony of being too young cast into the world. Like the four hobbits early on in "Lord of the Rings," the Royal Four are "Alone, without guidance, bearing a great burden." As the mother of a teenager now, my heart aches for these kids. It's distressing (and highly entertaining) to watch the manipulation and mind-raping that's going on--You betrayed them! You sold out! You destroyed our world! I killed you-want me to do it again? etc. etc.--that's being inflicted upon these "clueless teenagers," who don't remember any of it! Say what you will about the *Science* aspect of the show, for my money the *Fiction* aspect is working great.

I watched "Harvest" four times. I liked it better with each viewing. Of course I capisce'd the goth/horror look and feel of the show right off, but not being drawn to that genre I guess I wasn't jaded to see it used in Roswell. Anyway, I think it was chosen for a purpose. Bear with me, because I'm still fried from waiting up Tuesday night to see who won--

It's easy to forget that television is just glorified theatre. Things seem more "realistic" on tv or film because of tech effects that were unthinkable to Shakespeare or the Greeks, but it's stylized, symbolic storytelling all the same. It's clear from the "Signs & Symbols & Behr, Oh My!" thread just how carefully the sets are dressed and the shots framed on Roswell. (Was this the backlot at Warner Brothers or Fox, by the way? Does anyone know?)

This is a story about hollow, heartless people, in a village that's all mannequins, false fronts, and illusion. The Skins regard the royals with contempt and hatred, but with contempt most of all: for Max's compassion, Michael's loyalty, Isabel's passionate, reckless love (whether or not Khivar was simply using Vilandra so that he could take power and then kill her). These are qualities that humans hold dear; the Skins disdain them and maybe all feelings and emotions as evidence of weakness. Maybe Nasedo was one of them after all. They don't just regard deep feelings as something dangerous to be controlled, like the Vulcans--they despise them. They loathe them. And it sounds like Max's people were a pretty passionate bunch. Mom's final words were "I love you." Whitaker and Nicholas are about as hateful as it gets. "That gleam of dull stupidity in the eyes--" Brrr.

I've been pondering the meaning of Courtney's Michael shrine, if all she is is a political follower--maybe it represents the nascent if alien and bizarre beginnings of feeling in one of her kind. If Courtney is allowed to live in the upcoming eps (I'm unspoiled) we might see this unfolding. We've already seen her redemption, and that had me cheering. For her and Michael both. Characters you can root for. That's what drama is all about, folks. I'm soooo there.

So here's a ghost town that was once a tourist trap filled with fake lifeless old west dioramas, inhabited by husks of people who move like the living dead because in a sense they are the living dead--they have no souls and certainly no hearts. The clothes on the incubating husks? It seemed theatrical to the max to me. The village postman, the small town couple, the geeky teenager--all roles, costumes put on for the sake of the tourists, i.e. us. Maybe when no one is there to observe Copper Summit it doesn't even exist.

In the traditional horror genre there is an element of the chaos of nature and ultimate decay, as represented by children of the corn, animated corpses, sticky swampy out of control plant growth, and so forth. It's the dark world of dissolution at constant war with the brief flickering light of consciousness, which is why it frightens. With all the plant references coming out, I think the Skins' Stephen King village has a bit of this too.

So I found the episode well-conceived in this sense. A bit different for Roswell, and too derivative for a lot of people, maybe. But I believe that subliminally we learned a lot more about these people and their world, and what the kids are up against.

After "'47" I wondered why our planet had been chosen to house the hybrids. I'm falling asleep with my face in my plate here so I'll stop writing, but I'll try to sum up. In "Premiere" we saw the alien children thrown into danger by a rash, loving, compassionate act. In "Harvest" we see what Max's people were up against--hateful, soulless, with total contempt for love, loyalty, and compassion.

Liz in California
"I don't care who you are or what you are, I'll be here for you."

(BIG HUGS) to SciFi, myth, Signs & Symbols people, Roswellians in general!

Liz

ValentiFan's post was very interesting regarding the Skins' feelings or lack thereof. However, I took the "Village of the Damned" a bit differently than she did. Imagine, if you will, a world destroyed, nowhere to escape. Only possibility for survival? An Earth with atmosphere so corrosive to your form, that it will damage and kill your body. So, if you are to live there, you must live surrounded by a spacesuit, a living thing (10 in the yuck factor) that you cannot take off, ever. The inhabitants of this planet will kill you if they know of your existence.

In order to survive this hostile world, they must separate from and learn to despise feelings because they are a burden in the quest for survival. That's all. They are alienated, alone , even to communicate, they must do it through methods completely alien to them: language, limbs, etc. Their souls, (and yes, they have to have souls), may prove that there could be redemption. What better or more fitting win for Max than showing compassion and joining all factions?

However, we don't know what or how they feel. When any of them speak about the Podsters' race and theirs, it seems to be the same, (only difference is the method, or technology available to them, when they came to Earth), so… although we could argue that Max et.al. have feelings because of their human side, the fact that Mom said I love you, that Isabel betrayed her family for love (whether she did or not is not the issue - there are strong feelings there), Vanessa's passion when questioning Isabel, Mrs. Crawford drawing comfort from holding hands with Mr. Crawford, Grier's anger, Courtney's humor and love towards Michael, Nikolas trying to dissuade Isabel, etc., they all make me think that they most definitely have feelings. And we are going to need them because they'll need somebody's compassion at one point or another!

Evil is everywhere, in humans, SS, podsters' race, skins and if you believe that evil is an alien right, you do not read the papers here on Earth! So… in spite of the fact that I think there is another race/species in Twilo, which is the truly evil one, if there isn't, then it's not the Skins either because they are not one-dimensional, even if they become crazy killers at some point, because that's what we Earthlings would also do if we were in their shoes!

I made fun of them by comparing them to the "Night of the Living Dead" when they left the U.F.L.'s headquarters. It was not funny - that explosion was their dead sentence! What would you have done in their place? Probably plan your revenge too! And, if you are a superior species (because of powers, technology, etc.), maybe you would also think that you have more rights to this place than the morons already inhabiting it! I think Mom's message, if not changed by Tess' exquisite powers (please note sarcasm here), showed naivete when saying "you'll know them by the evil within". If all of us have the potential for good or evil inside, how do we know what's in their heart?

It's depressing to think that such highly evolved creatures, who have achieved technology that allows for time travel, cloning and God knows what else, may be so primitive when it comes to feelings, power struggles, etc. I would have thought that evolution in one area would come hand in hand with spiritual, emotional development. If that was the case, but I doubt it, Max's job is even bigger than I expected. He'll have to teach them maturity, soul searching, empathy and compassion. No easy tasks. Of course, if anybody can, he will!

D'ya really think the home planet is destroyed? I think we've gotten conflicting clues on this point. If that's the case, then a) Khivar could very well be Grant Sorensen and b) they must REALLY hate and envy the podsters for being provided with new Earth-safe bodies when they've got to live as parasites.

I'm hoping the home planet is still there because I'd like to see them show it, but it's quite possible it's gone. If it's gone, the Skins' dilemma becomes much more serious.

And anyway, in terms of relativity theory, there can be no simultaneous "now" between here and any such distant place, especially if it's in another galaxy, as Nicholas implied. But it would be true even in our own galaxy.

Editorial insertion: Unless that's what the granilith does--warp spacetime and steam vegetables.

I do hope we get to see Max heal these enemies, teach them soul-searching and compassion. As you say, if anybody can do it, he's the one. I love that kid. But wow, are there some rough times ahead for him.

Thanks for replying to my post. You're not an evil alien!

Liz

bluecornmoon, While I can't sympathize with the Skins to the same degree that you do, I can empathize a little; I'm thinking they are a little cranky and irritable like I am when I get hives.
Like Valenti fan also wrote: quote:...they must REALLY hate and envy the podsters for being provided with new Earth-safe bodies when they've got to live as parasites.Or like my mom would always tell me about the bullies: "They're just jealous."

By the same token, the skins who have played an important role -- Nicholas, Courtney, CW, and what's-his-name the FL leader -- have all displayed strong emotion. Someone without emotion would not experience anything we call "feeling." They would have no use for the revenge obviously sought by Nicholas and FL man against Max and Michael. They would not express the pain CW felt at Pierce's abandoning her nor the glee she displayed while taunting Isabel. Indeed, they would not taunt at all. They would not boast of their prowess or proclaim how much they were going to enjoy destroying their enemies as Nicholas does with Michael and Mr. FL does with Max.

I think many people are confusing disdain (an emotion) towards humans with a lack of emotion. The two things are not the same. If anything, the "evil" aliens (those opposed to MMI) are overly emotional. They so consistently and overtly display negative emotions (disdain, arrogance, pride, desire for vengeance, hatred, rage, etc.) that they become almost "Snidely Whiplash" caricatures of villains (or fairy tale villains). All their passions are directed towards self-aggrandizement and their actions towards willful destruction. In this way, they are sharply contrasted with the compassion, personal loyalty, altruism, and love displayed by the "good" aliens (including Courtney and Mommie). But just because the bad aliens seem to hate goodness itself, they are still expressing the emotion of hatred all the same.

I agree that the mass of skins in Arizona, including the CW's "parents," acted like zombies, but the principal characters -- Nicholas, CW, FL leader (and Nasedo as well) -- are not distinguished from their humanized counterparts by a lack of emotion. On the contrary, they are distinguished by an overwhelming abundance of negative emotion. It's almost if in seeking to entice Isabel to return to K'var and the rebels, CW and Nicholas are offering her D'Arth Vader's (or Satan's) power of the "dark side."

This is one of the main reasons I suspect that Max was indeed a good king, but like all truly good rulers his weakness was that he had no way to counter the dark bargain. He would have asked his subjects to be like him, willing to sacrifice some of their own interests for the good of all. Conversely, the dark prince promises each one what he desires most, regardless of the consequences to anyone else. Of course, the dark one is really only interested in serving himself, but by the time his followers find that out it's too late for them.

I'm curious as to why so many here have voiced the opinion that Max was probably a bad or weak ruler. I don't think Max's fascination with JFK was an accident. Max's rule would almost certainly resemble the real "Camelot," where all worked together for the common good. Certainly, Max is like the boy who accidentally pulls the sword from the stone and discovers much to his surprise that he is heir to the kingdom. Like the fabled Arthur, Max is more a healer and unifier than a warrior -- a distinction Michael understands all too well. For Max, power is not something to be coveted or sought; it is a responsibility to be shouldered. Isn't that what we're supposed to want?

Now, what you said above: you are right but...

Once I read that everything in Nature always repeats itself. i.e.: the same shapes, the same consequences, etc. For instance: a bite by the Brown Domestic Violin Spider, which will kill you in one year, will look exactly like an erupting mini-volcano on your skin. There are billion references of all patters repeating in Nature. So...If we have the potential for evil thoughts and actions, but also for their counterparts, then the Skins do too! By the same token, if the Skins have the potential for evil thoughts and bad feelings, then there's the potential for the other side of the coin: For kindness and self-sacrifice and empathy! You can't have darkness if there's no light. You wouldn't know what Goodness is unless you had Evil to compare it against! Nothing is black or white... there are a thousand shades of gray! They are from the same planet, the same species as Max. Nazis were people too. Only misguided by the charisma of their crazy leader but... if you spoke with each one of them individually, I'm sure you would have found them to be people with the same wants and fears as you, only lacking in the correct information. So... inasmuch as all we have seen of the Skins is bad, I believe we'll find good there too, and, knowing Roswell and Max as I know Roswell and Max, I think we shouldn't be so prompt to throw them out the window. There may be redemption for them after all (because and/or in spite of what we see them doing in the near/far future!). That's all.

Forgive me for only partially quoting your post, but in the interest of brevity...(that was irony).

I don't have any conclusions or theories here. But this is a fascinating subject because when I've tried to figure out how to characterize the Skins in the context of the mommogram, and after watching Harvest, I've had great difficulty. Sure, they are clearly the "bad guys", at least most of them, and at least for now. But, in imagining parallels to human history, I too thought of the Nazis.

I've considered the theory you raise, that the Nazi's were just misguided by the charisma of their crazy leader, but that just doesn't sit well with me. However, I agree that they were people, human beings, and I don't think they can be distinguished from other human beings in any internal or fundamental or unchangeable way; that leads into very dangerous territory. But for the Skins, that seems to be what the mommogram wants us to do; assume that the other aliens are "evil within" (all of them, at least that was my take on her message. the Skins are the "other")

But, perhaps there is something that you can call "evil" that is a force, an energy, that can collect or magnify in one place, and direct the actions of people. I know, I know, it sounds like I am absolving people of responsibility for their actions, but really I'm trying not to. I am just struggling with a mystery, or at least, it's a mystery to me; why, individually and collectively, people will hold beliefs and commit acts that are unbelievably cruel, brutal, and, well, just plain wrong, and be able to justify it in their minds.

individually, it can be explained by psychosis, mental illness, whatever (e.g. J. Dahmer.) It's the collective aspect of it is most troubling to me. how is it that a large number of human beings, all with independent identities and minds, can collectively decide to commit atrocities?

So, back to the Skins. If they can't go back, and the destruction of their husks is the destruction of them as a people on this planet, then Courtney just committed genocide. Against her own people. Wow. Dang.

That wasn't necessarily where I was going, but it's where i ended up.

-WhirlingGirl

I really enjoyed your posts. I just wanted to let y'all know that I quoted from them on Rosta's Signs & Symbols thread. http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/000381-4.html#93 We've been having a discussion on time-travel and the heroic myth among other topics. Everyone's welcome.

SF

So far the variable evil factor in Roswell points to the "evil within" being a personal allegiance at a particular instant, but perhaps we haven't yet met the Essence of Evil--who or whatever it may prove to be.

I'm not siding with "Evil" here, God forbid. All I'm saying is that mass "corruption" is possible, even if each individual part has more good than bad in them. Because they have to go with the flow. It is not necessary for evil to be concentrated in one place. All you need is the head, the power holder to be and that will make the entire body behave like so. The strongest feelings in a human being (and, I suspect, in a Twilonese) are greed and fear. And yes, we all have a choice but that choice is not so clearcut when our well being or that of those we love is at stake?

Courtney committed Genocide. Sad and scary. And now, he who has the least to loose is the most dangerous. It's Nikolas' turn now...

Shapeshifter: Exactly! It seems to me that, according to Mom, Evil are only those who disagree with her. Or... what I said before: the Skins are not the Evil ones. That danger is still lurking out there, hiding in the darkness, waiting to zap the podsters one of these days. As a Dreamer, I was disappointed that Liz didn't recognize Vanessa for what she was... well, I think the moment we meet one is when she'll show her powers... but this is the wrong thread for that, isn't it?

I have been wondering if there is a development of alien telepathy for our podsters. Is it merely the writers, or do the following plot points "point" to the development of telepathy.

1)Max says to Liz in Copper Summit, "You are lying, you aren't afraid of me, and you are hiding something."...or words to that effect. We know he is right...but how does he know? We aren't shown any flashes...But most people can't tell when someone is lying to them...very few people have that skill according to scientific tests. I don't think Max is doing wishful thinking, I think he knows or feels Liz's emotions.

2) Michael races right to Isobel. We aren't shown any flashes...but Michael had the dreams with Isobel so we know there is a connection between them. Did he sense that she was in danger or was that just poor writing? I mean...if they were just strolling into town, wouldn't they want to talk to Max & company before destroying things?

3) The skins reacted to the destruction of their husks. Telepathy? Did Nicholas "shout" and cause that pain or was it the reaction of a "connected" skin/husk people?

What do you think? Perhaps Tess would have known in the White Room that Max was dead or alive...I'd always thought it was wishful thinking on her part, but maybe it wasn't.

2) Michael races right to Isabel. We aren't shown any flashes...but Michael had the dreams with Isobel so we know there is a connection between them. Did he sense that she was in danger or was that just poor writing? I mean...if they were just strolling into town, wouldn't they want to talk to Max & company before destroying things?
No, he doesn't. Courtney pops out of the car first, and heads for the husk farm. Michael and Maria follow. I think, judging from their earlier conversation, that Michael wants to see, and perhaps sabotage, the husks. Finding Isabel and Nikolas was just luck.

3) The skins reacted to the destruction of their husks. Telepathy? Did Nicholas "shout" and cause that pain or was it the reaction of a "connected" skin/husk people?
No, because I noticed that the Skins didn't all react at once. I think that each new husk was cloned from its intended owner's old husk. The new husk may have some connection with the old one. In that case, as the new one was damaged or destroyed, the old one would feel pain, and transmit that to the alien wearing it.

What do you think? Perhaps Tess would have known in the White Room that Max was dead or alive...I'd always thought it was wishful thinking on her part, but maybe it wasn't.
Maybe. In the first season, we learned that Max and Isabel could "feel" Michael, somehow. As you said, there is a special bond between Michael and Isabel. (4SQ, etc) If Tess has a parallel "special bond" with Max, then perhaps she could know.

3) The skins reacted to the destruction of their husks. Telepathy? Did Nicholas "shout" and cause that pain or was it the reaction of a "connected" skin/husk people?
No, because I noticed that the Skins didn't all react at once. I think that each new husk was cloned from its intended owner's old husk. The new husk may have some connection with the old one. In that case, as the new one was damaged or destroyed, the old one would feel pain, and transmit that to the alien wearing it.
On #1: I think Max might know because of the connections and reverse connections he and Liz have already shared. And, for the record, Mothers always know when they're being lied to; we just sometimes choose to act as if we don't know.

On #2: I think I understand that now, thanks to you guys. I'm remembering Courtney saying it was kind of like a tree. And Nick said they were grown from spores. It reminds me of that giant fungus in X-files, except it's made of human flesh and so has nerve endings. So it would be a little like suffering amputation. But then how does Courtney's husk fit in?

Another topic: I'm still puzzling on "Copper Summit" and "Robertson's." Maybe "Summit" is a clue. Copper is an excellent conductor of electricity. Anyone else?

I don't know what to make of these yet. (Didn't someone mention Robertson as a person supposedly abducted by aliens?) I'm a little behind, but two brain cells just made a connection about Surprise. Diane Evans tells Isabel why Dad isn't there for her party -- he's stuck in Minneapolis (one of the Twin Cities), and he's "beside himself." In retrospect, this looks like foreshadowing (a) the second set of pods, or (b) FutureMax / PresentMax. Or are there further possibilities?

I was rewatching Harvest a couple of days ago and noticed something:

You remember when Tess interrupts Isabel and Nicholas' discussion (purposefully, I think) while Isabel is seated at the dresser in CW's room... Nicholas leaves and Tess and Isabel continue talking about CW and how the UFL is taking care of all the funeral arangements, and that CW's parents haven't even seen the body (at this point the pod squad thinks there is no body, of course).

"What about the kid?" Tess says.

"I don't know - you came crashing in before I could start a real conversation" says Isabel.
Tess shudders like there's a chill hitting her back - Isabel pulls a scarf up over her shoulders at the same time and looks over her left shoulder.

My question: Is there something in the room we can't see? Does anyone have any thoughts about what's going on there?

Please forgive if you've already discussed this...

Zara

Hey, something just occurred to me: Maybe what Tess was trying to remember when she was flashing on the Congresswoman's picture was the Vilandra story CW told Isabel while Tess was unconscious.

I thought this episode was pretty good! The actor who played Nikolas (Miko something from Full House!!) was REALLY talented! he was good! "OK, Now i'm pissed off" I liked it... the end was very interesting...was that a leg on the wheel of the wagon at the end?? and why did they end on that...hmmm must be symbolism that i don't understand yet...
Ranelle
~~~~~~~~
"I love her. What can i say?"
"...You're hopeless"

Zara: I don't think there was anything in the room at all. Rememer in EOW when Max said that Tess left because of the way he and everyone else treated her, i think this was an example of Is brushing her off. Tess shook her head because she didn't like how Isabel treated her. It is this kind of stuff that will drive her away...if we have any hope for Max and Liz(and i do!), this can't happen!!!!!!

~~~~~~
"I love her. What can I say?"
"...You're hopeless."

About Max and leadership:
This topic is a sore one with me, in that I think it's one of the more phony and contrived things they've done to the show this season. About the only thing which has been consistent is the writers' willingness to yank the characters around in artificial ways to come up with plot angles and cover "plotholes." And the Max/ Michael thing is the worst example.

Michael always says things with great conviction, and so people usually forgot to tally his score: he's usually wrong. There's almost nothing he "achieves" by his rash actions which couldn't have been achieved in a less drastic and way with less danger of exposure; but that's what makes for colorful plotpoints. And in a lucid moment (rare), Michael admitted to Valenti that he's wrong to rail at Max, it's just because he's afraid and "in the dark." Yet he goes right back to it in the next episode.

Max has acted with good judgment, and has had a pretty good score so far this season: he prevented Nasedo from mass executions which would have been immoral and hard to explain; removed Cadmium X from Pierce's remains and carbon-aged them at the same time, thus exonerating Michael and totally humiliating Whitaker; prevented the murder of an apparently innocent Brody while finding out everything Brody knew; discovered new powers; he's been taking pains to include Tess in the foursome, and cementing relations with Valenti, a valuable ally.

Max's pattern is to stay calm within the eye of the storm ("to keep his head when all about him are losing theirs"), and to find the one, perfect, act of courage and simplicity that is the only effective choice - - usually putting himself, and only himself, at risk. (Even FutureMax found a plan that will effect the necessary change at the cost of himself and his love.)

In Harvest, there was no way to find out anything without going in, even though it felt dangerous; so he chose that course, and they all worked as a team. Result: They've had their first Skin Skirmish, and they now know much more than before.

However, I'm still not sure how much is to be believed: remember that so far, the only thing we do know (from FM in EOTW) is that the podsters need to work as a team of 4, and that the stories told by the skins have the effect of dividing them - - as if they know how important it is that the podsters not work together.

I didn't like this ep much; I didn't even like it as sci-fi. I thought it was a Buffy episode written by Steven King, and should have been called "Children of the Corn," or of "the Husks." It just seemed to open up more opportunities for loose, unexplained ends, while EOTW seemed to shut a lot of doors in hopeful directions, so I'm feeling less and less optimistic with each episode.

A couple of things I can explain, though: I don't think Howie is Kavar, because CornChild said Kavar is back on the homeworld, sitting on the "tarnished" throne of FormerMax, or PastMax.

Also, about the "woman" in the wagon in the stable is a dummy in a display: the town pretends to be a tourist attraction, a period reenactment village, but all of the attractions, as Max pointed out, are closed. The little displays are just to fool people who might drive through, and to disappoint them enough to "try Tombstone"; skins don't really want to be wasting their time trying to "run" bogus businesses.

Isabel may try to hide what the skins have told her (truth or lie, we can't say yet for sure), but Tess was there and heard it too. She was in bad shape, but she was conscious, and the aliens are going to be exploring, I'm sure, the "sense memory recall techniques" that Tess spoke of when Max walked her home.

Remember, when Tess stood holding Whitaker's picture, she got lost in a reverie - - remembering the last time she saw CW, in the basement at the power plant. Tess was interrupted by Whitaker's mother, so she didn't recall all of CW's words, but when she does, she'll have the story CW told Iz.

Also, if there was a purpose to CW's mum interrupting at that point, which there probably wasn't, it would mean that the skins were trying to prevent that recall.

But Tess has also told Max that she can remember some things about the home world and that she'll teach him these techniques. This might enable her to recall what actually happened in the former life, and possibly contradict what the skins are telling Iz.

(Another interesting possibility is that Max will use these techniques, and recall things that might break the impasse with Liz: that there were two people spying with binoculars, for instance, so who was the man in there with Liz? The man too tall to be Kyle?

These "gifts" are human gifts indeed.

Max did kiss Liz in CW's office, when he caught her spying; he/ they got flashes, and he said, "I felt that! I know you did too!" (So did we all, honey!)

Later that night she came and gave him the "I don't want to die for you," speech - - but she had to refuse to let him touch her, to make him cover his body with a shirt, and even to stop him from speaking or "she wouldn't be able to say what she'd come to say." And the look on her face as he walked over to open the window would not have been lost on him.

So then the next night he finds her in bed with someone else? As he said in the car, "It doesn't make sense." How can she still connect and get flashes, tremble at the sight, sound, and touch of him, - - and have sex with someone else?

"I know you," he says - - the weakest point in this plot to betray him and turn him to Tess, is that this is Max: any other guy would have been furious and abusive or hurt, but it would have been over. One strike, one terrible blow, and then it's done.

But not with Max, and the special connection they have. So Liz will have to lie and lie again, and she's not good at it; and no one's going to believe it, especially not Max and Maria. (And Kyle, the perennial loose cannon, is out in the cold with an untrimmed lamp, and somehow I can't imagine him not complaining.)

I may be wrong, but do we necessarily accept the account the skins are giving of life back "home"? Why?

Whitaker was "diddling" Pierce, before he was Nasedo-Pierce. She probably found out tons of info, most notably the ones under suspicion in Roswell. Topolsky, who was in the same Unit, knew to go to Michael, for instance, not just Max. And knowing Pierce, he would have checked into their backgrounds, and found weaknesses, etc.

When CW was introduced to the podsters on separate occasions, her eyes really bugged out as if she knew who they were. And she knew there was supposed to be a fourth, the only one Pierce hadn't been aware of: Tess. So she pried it out of Liz (easy).

The skins know the podsters are in ignorance of what's going on. And CW and little CornChild boy each tell a podster a story that cuts him/her out from the herd, isolates him/her - - and weakens the team.

Maria even said it to Michael: "Hello! If you can hear me over the sound of your rapidly-inflating ego, tell me you don't believe this lie..."

If Courts only "follows" MikeyG politically, her hand seems to follow his butt for totally different reasons. There's no need to keep making trouble with Maria (unless to isolate him even more), no need to keep practically ravishing him, no need for a T-shirt and boots in her shrine, no need for a shrine!

And she seems to have a suspicious effect on Michael - - rather like the way it looked when Tess used to manipulate Max and Isabel: and it might be connected with touch, since Courtney keeps touching Michael so persistently.

Wasn't CW's husk what was lying in the coffin? When Liz poked the hole in it, it seemed to have "stuff" inside (euwwww!), indicating some kind of life-form, not just a mannequin.

CW was had been due to "report" on the 25th, the letter said; but she didn't so the others reported her dead.

We know CW died violently, from the electricity; so when that happened, her husk back at the Husk Farm may have suffered or died (just as the husk-wearers seem to suffer when the husks are harmed). That may have been what first tipped off the Waltons from Hell.

No question that the connection between M/L is the reason for Max's refusal to take the whole Kyle thing at face value. Yes, Liz will have to continue to lie, lie, lie. But just wait until something happens that he is able to 'connect' with Liz again. That is how the deception coming out in the open. We shall see....

Remember that the searing pain of what he saw was just the night before, and he hasn't had any sleep.

Remember that he's an honorable guy who's forced to live a double life all the time, to bear the strain of never letting down his guard; he finds one person, a kindred spirit, with whom he can share himself fully, relax, and bare his soul; they connect on the deepest levels of heart and mind.

She's the only person he can really be totally free with, open with - - the only one he can wholly trust. He's let down his guard, shared his soul and all his dangerous secrets, and WHAM! he runs up against seemingly undeniable proof that she's not to be trusted!

It's not just about sex, although that would *be* enough - - it's about their lives being at stake; the podsters have put their lives in the hands of Liz and her friends, and they need to know if they're to be trusted. Can humans and aliens trust each other, work together?

It's a little more important than his feelings; he put his feelings aside with great effort, since it must be agonizing to have to be so close to her so soon - - but she's the only one with a connection to CW.

In fact, Liz's whole plan was predicated on just that - - that no one would be able ever to forgive something like that, it would just be over from that moment.

But she didn't count on the depth of his love and knowledge of her - - and what she did, no matter how painful, isn't working. Maria said it would all be over, that nothing could excuse infidelity, so Liz thought that this plan would sever them in one clean stroke.

But it didn't end his love for her, and so she's going to have to lie, and lie, and lie again - - to everyone. Maria, Kyle, podsters, Max, possibly parents ... And I don't think she can do it.

Did anyone tell Maria (or Isabel) about Alex slugging Michael? The poor guy seems stuck, on the outside of the action.

I may be wrong, but do we necessarily accept the account the skins are giving of life back "home"? Why?

I have asked the question about why clone these four here and other threads. There are certainly reasons under a political context to question the motivation for the cloning. Regardless of whether the skins are truthful or not, if the leadership of our proto-podsters caused warring factions, then one wonders why the Twilonese would go to any great extent to recreate them. Nations rise and fall on Twilo just as they do on Earth. New leaders replace the old. So when cloning these four, I believe that the reasons go much further than politics.

What we do know from Nikolaus is that the podsters have a "legendary aura" on Twilo. I think that this line could imply that the Twilonese have a Christ-like view of the podsters. That they are saviors of their world. If we compare that scenerio to our own religions, you can find many examples of the central deity being recreated, reborn, or refashion to save the world.

This returns me back to the question why these four? And why must they work together? Is there some sort of metaphysical connection between them? The fact that they are Royal seems important, but I do not think it carries them up to the status of "Legendary". I think the decision to clone them was based Twilo's mythology that have undertones of religious significance than political ones. My assumption here is also supported in Mommogram's message, "Our enemies have come to the Earth. You will know them only by the evil within. Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my arms. I live for that moment. Help us. I love you."

As discussed on pages prior, the evil within implies evil intent rather than by physical traits. Combat could be refering to killing evil, like St. George killed the dragon, the serpant-symbol for Satan. Only after all the evil is extinguished, can the podster truly free the home world.

Thoughts?

But Nicholas says that the "legendary aura" has "sprung up over the years", indicating that it's developed since the death of the proto-podsters (love that term ).

Using the assumption that all the skins are telling the truth (albeit from their own POV) about the situation on Twilo, this is what I came up with:

1. Twilo was about to enter a golden age when proto-Max somehow screwed up (courtney tells us this).

2. A group of nobles or high-ranking officials (recall Nicholas saying that Is "gave him the eye from time to time" - this implies that he was moving in rather high circles) staged a coup d'etat, calling it a "people's revolution".

3. The new government has turned out to be much worse tha proto-Max's had been, hence the peoples' hope for the podsters' return, but Khivar is still spinning propaganda like crazy ( e.g. max's "tarnished" throne).

So, Qfanny, I think it's all political; anyone care to disagree?

Also, I have long expected us to discover that neither Is nor Michael actually killed...that the real Congresswoman and the real Pierce were long since box lunched by the Skins who impersonated them.

On the line about "we're as good as dead," doesn't this imply that they are not dead, just huskless? We might be in for some more wavy video effects.

On Isabel's snapping at Tess when the hussy interrupts Iz's initial conversation with Nicholas. I think this is one of the stranger moments I've seen on Roswell. On the one hand, it did seem to refer us back to Tess's earlier comments about the way "everybody" dislikes her. On the other hand, it seems more likely that we were meant to take Isabel's repsonse as uncharacteristic (she's always been the most sympathetic towards Tess), and instead that it was a signal of some turmoil and anxiety Nicholas' presence and their conversation about Volandra had stirred in Iz. If that's the case, I don't think it worked very well. It just seemed to come out of nowhere.

As for what I said about the skins being evil -- well that's not what I said. I said the aliens opposed to the R4 had been portrayed as evil, so much so that they seem almost cartoonish. This trait extends to Pierce and perhaps even Nasedo as well. It is certainly true that any or all of these characters can be redeemed at any moment as Valenti was. but for now, they've been drawn with a very sharp pen, and to see anything sympathetic about them you've got to put it there yourself.

I agree totally with Michelle in Yonkers' remarks about Max's leadership qualities and with her comparison of Max and Michael's actions. I actually deleted a paragraph from my last post in which I described Michael as a "reckless fool." I got rid of it because I was afraid people would misinterpret it to mean I didn't like Michael and that I overlooked his good qualities. I don't, but he has repeatedly proven himself to be reckless and foolish, and more often than not his actions have done more to endanger everyone than help them.

Of course, Max is not without a few kinks in his armor -- the main one is and has always been Liz. He proved in the pilot episode that he would get himself and his fellow aliens killed before he would let her die. Up until now, his devotion has remained consistent. At the same time, this is not necessarily a weakness, nor is it an indication that he wouldn't do the same thing for other people he loves. In the Crashdown that fateful day, Liz is the only one whose life depends on instant action. If Max does nothing, she dies. He cannot know or even worry about the consequences of saving her. Her problem is acute, and the ramifications for everyone else are unknown. Remember too that bringing her into the mix brought at least as much good as bad. She was the catalyst that allowed the aliens to begin discovering who they were and why they were here. She was also the motivating force that brought Max out from "behind the tree" to discover the depth of his strength and character.

In the White Room, we again see Max demonstrate that his concern for Liz is greater than his regard for his own life (it's also interesting that in the church, Max doesn't say "let them [Liz and tess] go; I'm the one you want"; he says "let HER go; she's not part of this" -- or something similar). But if Max had to expose himself or risk his life to save Michael, Isabel, or even his mother (as in Toy House), I think he would do so just as quickly. The traits that Michelle in Yonkers outlined are those that we typically profess to want in our leaders. Perhaps more importantly, they are the traits we tend to invest in our heroes.

If any serious criticism can be leveled at Max, it would be over his Summer of denial after Destiny. At the beginning of this season, we frequently hear him express the hope that maybe no one is really out there and the wish that things will go back to the way they were before. I guess it is from this that people keep describing his "weak" leadership. But what was he supposed to be doing? Even Michael, who repeatedly criticizes Max's inaction, admits to Valenti that he hasn't got a clue how to proceed. Once the threats do materialize, Max becomes more proactive, devising and carrying out plans that successfully their enemies. Remember that he also stops Michael and Isabel's rash plans to kill what's his name in the UFO museum.

Last season, Destiny seemed to introduce a new Max, a boy who'd been changed to a man and leader by his experience in the White Room. But losing Liz took the wind out of his sails. It didn't stop him from doing what was necessary, but it robbed him of his certainty and confidence, and it diverted his focus and purpose. Like it or not, Liz herself is not a weakness for Max, she is a major source of his strength. Losing her is like Sampson losing his hair. Once I made that familiar remark to a friend, "I wish I could be 16 again and know what I know now." He replied, "no you don't." I asked "why not?" And he said, "at least you know you got THIS far; if you did it again you might get hit by a bus the first day." This is what Future Max and Future Liz forget to take into account. They believe that Tess's absence causes them to fail after fourteen years. The fact is that Liz's absence could cause Max to fail before he ever gets started. But we know that won't happen, because Max will regain the other half of his soul -- Liz -- and united they will be strong enough to prevail.

rannylvsros, I thought the "it has begun" was probably thought/spoken by all holders of the beepers (except maybe Brody if he really is clueless). I'm still wondering if the beeper holders are all shapeshifters, and where are they now. I mean, we haven't seen any Skins with beepers.

I'm also wondering how Nasedo never managed to notice that CW was shedding. She must have use a lot of Corn Huskers Lotion!

Oh, and rannylvsros, think for a moment about the choice of the end of the world versus no 14 years with Max--in a way ( ) that WOULD be the end of the world. I think the title of the ep was meant to imply that.

Well, I've been trying to nurture a "Politics of Roswell" thread for a while; you're all welcome to visit.

Why these kids? My thought, such as it is, picks up on the referrences to Buddha/ism and reincarnation. I think that this isn't the second go-around for these people; I suspect that, like the Dali Lhama, they're believed to have been leaders for a looong time. If a Max has been Priest/King for millenia, he might be more valuable than one King in an expected succession of many.

I just thought Reggie's post needed a bump. It goes along with the 300-year-old Buddha Nasedo/Harding had (hmmm...who has it now? Anybody ever read their kid A Kiss For Little Bear?) And like someone else said, it would explain the royal four "aura" or whatever that Nikolas was sniping about.

Why these kids? My thought, such as it is, picks up on the referrences to Buddha/ism and reincarnation. I think that this isn't the second go-around for these people; I suspect that, like the Dali Lhama, they're believed to have been leaders for a looong time. If a Max has been Priest/King for millenia, he might be more valuable than one King in an expected succession of many.

Reggie-- I will visit the thread as soon as I can get to it. Do you have the url?

Anyway, the problem I have with the reincarnation (aka the Dala Lama) is that everytime this religious leader dies, reincarnation is expected. The priests look for the new priest, or the Dala Lama in a new life. All this occurs naturally.

What happened to Max/Isabel/Michael/Tess definately seems unnatural. There was forced cloning and hybridazation done.

OTOH the link we have to Kyle as Buddha-boy may be the big clue as to the writer's intention for Max et al in the future.

About why did they send THESE FOUR kids... Courtney says the society was on the brink of a Golden Age and that all ended when the revolution/assassination occured... perhaps Max's people believe that the golden age that was about to occur was due to Max and co's leading (kind of the arguement do we have bill clinton to thank for the economy or not...). Perhaps they feel the only way to have the society go back to its peak, its height is to bring back the glorious leaders and restore the balance that previously existed before the skins ruined it all and took over... just a thought...

--KATE

LSS, you may want to step in here with your creditials to help me understand...

1) The Old Testament and Homerabi (sp) Code are a basic foundation of our legal system. It sets a history of what is considered moral and what isn't. The Book of Exodus is about Moses fleaing Egpyt and the Pharoh's rule. Moses was a religious and a political leader of the Jewish people.

2) The Greeks and Hellenstic societies mandated that the political leaders were considered Gods or deities. In fact, in its only in our more modern history, that the "seperation of Church and state" was established as a theme for governments.

3) The Natural Order: (I don't think that's the real name)
The feudal system had a class ranking, were the belief was the serf was subject to the lord, the lord was subject to the prince, the prince subject to the king, but the king was subject to God alone. Also, the King was also believed to be hand-picked by God.

zeddy or anyone else, do you think that it's possible for the Twilonese to develop there own political structures without religious undercurrents? Both politic leaders and religious leaders address many of the same concerns, ranging from power, land ownership, social welfare, and economies.

I think that it may be possible that an alien society could have kept religion and politics seperate; however, I do not think that the Twilonese did.

"There are no Michael worshipers in Copper Summit." And Courtney's shrine looks a lot like an alter to me too.

Qfanny, I am archiving this thread as it is now. So unless someone has a *flash* to add...?

BTW, to all SciFi Threads Poster Regulars: Later this week I will post a link to the archives of these threads for this Season and a few from last.