1) ALIEN SEX. Well--according to tonight's eppy, we can all wait with baited breath for that coming frame where we are treated to alien mating rituals. What makes alien sex so much better than the normal earthly variety? How DO aliens mate anyway? Only time will tell, but it is interesting fantasizing...opps...should we say "speculating" about it?

2) THE OLD ALTERED LIZ THEORY. In the first SF thread we speculated whether Liz was changed...and it looks like we were right. And that, folks, will explain why Liz gets flashes....at last! I wonder what else she can do? And just how much has she been changed? And if bringing her back is what changed her then what can Kyle expect?

3) NIFTY IDENTIFICATION SYSTEMS AND SEALS. Okay--the planetary system is the "v" and is also represented on a seal. All you astronomers out there...can you have a v shaped system? It doesn't sound very logical but maybe I'm too conventional in my thinking.

But the ID stenciled on Max's brain was interesting. Just think--embedded identification...but perhaps this is simply the royal identification and not the normal library variety?

4) ALIEN EMISSARIES. A little bit of Deep Space Nine showing through here (though in name only for Max is not the emissary in the Roswell version). Interesting, though, that the granolith is also of religious significance and not merely a transportation device. If you remember in DSN, the emissary was not only a star ship captian but also a religious figure. We know that Max used to be King--what we don't know is how kings function on Max's world. Does Max have a cultic function as well in his world's religious system?

5) POD CHAMBERS AND SEWERS. Couldn't help thinking Mutant Turtles here! Why sewers? Maybe they covered that in the last eppy, but I found it really odd. Of course it might make sense to go both urban and rural so that one had a diversity of locations for your pods. Why do you think they chose sewers as a place for the second four? And where is the second four's protector? No one ever answered Tess's questions did they?

6) ROYAL FOUR VS. ROYAL SEVEN. If we are thinking about going to the home planet now we must also consider the problem cloned leaders present. Of course, WE know that there is no comparison between the two groups...but what about Ava? Which would you choose to take back: Ava or Tess?

Well, things are moving along at a rapid SF pace in Roswell. What did you think of the SF in this eppy?

LSS

LIZ IS NOT AN ALIEN - SHE IS CHANGED!!! Now we will have to explore just what that means in the way of powers. Ooops, so is Kyle! Won't Daddy be proud?
Anyone notice how Ava reacted? Sad I thought, as if she knows something else too, or else she would have offered the information earlier. She held off telling until Isabel failed to reach Max, then she admitted it. Does she know that Max and Liz will belong together now? (Where does this leave Kyle?) Does she feel bad because she lost her Zan, Tess has staked her claim on the other one, and now Liz also may have a claim on him? This could make a girl sad. She just had an odd response. For some reason, changing Liz is a big deal and only Ava knows the significance of it, so far. It makes you wonder how she knew this too. Did her Zan save smeone's life too? Ava did say her Zan seemed to be waiting for someone else to walk into his life, and she didn't think he really loved her back, but Lonnie also said Max "had a stick up his butt just like Zan did after his b***ch left him". Both Zan clones were not drawn to their "brides" - why? Too bad NY Zan never got to react to meeting Liz Parker. It could have been very interesting.

History of Zan and his star system:
1. His father is dead(I wouldn't be surprised if K' var had secretly murdered him because he thought Zan would be easier to manipulate or fight), Zan was crowned King, he was an adult ("we practically grew up together"), and he had a wedding.
2. Apparently Max was trying to change things on his planet (government?) to make it better for his people. Larek said it was too much too soon, so this implies Max could have been a new ruler, and his ideas were innovative and revolutionary. This could create another problem that has not been mentioned yet, but that may pop up later. Namely, if people on the other planets saw Zan improving things for his people, they might expect the same from their own leaders, and that might be a bitter pill for those leaders to swallow. This may answer some of the previous questions I posed on Max's past personality traits. He was apparently a bold, innovative leader, that was fast-moving on his ideas - against advise. Is this why our Max is so cautious - his subconscious is afraid and withdrawn, fearing rejection from those around him that he loves? Our Max seems afraid of change, while Zan pushed it, trying to help his people.
3. After Zan was assassinated, Kathana attacked K' var (yet she was the first one to tell Max he had just made alot of enemies), K' var then attacked Sero, who attacked Hanar. Now we just have to find out why. Treaties, pre-emptive strikes out of fear? Strange or complicated politics to be attacked then turn around and attack someone else not yet involved in the war. Hanar was upset and was probably over-simplifying and ommitting information, so we really can't analyze yet the war going on.
4. The war between the planets of the home star system has been going on since Zan was overthrown, a little over 50 years ago. The "Skins" came here in 1950, chasing the Royal Four and the granolith. The husks they needed to survive in our atmosphere take 20 years to grow, and had to be genetically developed before that. The "Skins" could not have known about Max's reign, his revolutionary ideas, the assasination, desperate pod mission to Earth, etc, that far ahead of time. This means the "Skins" were probably using them already for travel to other worlds they were not equipped to visit normally(the other four, or Earth?). Can SSers survive on their world? Can the podsters? How and why are the Skins on Max's planet if they breathe a different atmosheric gas?
It makes sense that the five homeworlds are different because with: the distance from their star(s), the composition of the planets, and chemistry of the atmospheres, all five could not be identical or even close.
5. Larek (as Brody) also said that he and Zan [THAT'S RIGHT I USE CORRECT ENGLISH WHEN I CAN! IT IS NOT: " him and Zan" - sorry, pet peeve] had practically grown up together, and that their families were close. It sounds like interplanetary travel was common within the star system, so if there was a good deal of travel between the five worlds' leaders, then maybe the general populations also travelled(one good reason would be trade). Maybe there were multiple species living on each world, just as there are many races living in the U.S. This could explain why there are SSers and "Skins" on the same world. Perhaps they think of themselves as only races rather than species, because they live so closely together and are "one people", but SSers and Skins have to be different species. The SSers can breath our air without husks, but the Skins tissues react to it, and they die immediately, turning to dust. If they are that different chemically, and as the CW said, "we don't have the DNA", then they can't just be different races of the same species like humans are - unless...see below.

Thoughts on the species/races:
1. Harding said about the Royal Four, "Their survival is critical to the survival of an entire race". Harding did not say "our race" or "their own race". He did not say what race the Royal Four were, or what race needed saving.
2. The CW said to Isabel, "Your kind doesn't rule anymore".
3. The SSers have recently been called "protectors" of the Royal Four, and although it is natural to call them this since they brought the podsters here and protected them, it does raise some suspicions.
a. Are the SSers a race of Royal Guards?
b. Are the SSers the race the podsters are from?
c. Are the Royal Four from a race of rulers that are trying to keep peace on worlds that are not their native homes?(see also: granolith #6)
d. If Max and Isabel are from a race of rulers, then is Michael from the same race? Would Tess be from another ruling family, was it an arranged marriage, and if they were expected to produce offspring who could carry on the bloodline would they have to be the same species?(I don't mean by Earth biology,but in alien biology). Nicolas accused Tess of being genocidal, which means she was not a Skin.

What if an original species in the star system terra-formed other planets or moons in the system to be suitable for life, and some of the other worlds were not naturally inhabited? What if it was more practical for them to alter themselves instead of the planets? A species could have genetically engineered portions of their population to be able to live in different environments, and millenia after colonizing and developing the other worlds they still think of themselves as one people with more than one "race"? It may explain their lack of inhibitions at inter-diddling.
We could have a very confusing intermingling of races over five worlds, the only limitations being that the "Skins" can not survive on at least one of the worlds without husks, otherwise they would not have developed them and had them available to come to Earth.

The Granolith
According to the NY4, the granolith has religious meaning "like the Holy Grail", "they worship it". Was Max told this to make him think it was not a functional machine, but a relic that should be sent back, since it was useless anyway? Did they make it up or is this what they were told? Who told the NY4 this anyway - an SSer, or Nicolas? Were they told the truth?

1. The granolith was removed from the homeworld, but the other four planets did not know it until the summit.
2. Nicolas said vaguely that they (K' var's government) had known about it for some time.
3. The leaders of the other planets seemed shocked that it had been moved to Earth.
4. It was referred to as THEE granolith. There is only one.
5. It sounds like the granolith is not an object that is seen or used very often by many people. Is it a sacred instrument that is for Zan's use only? Do the Skins want it only to prevent Zan from using it?
6. You would think another could be made if it was just a matter of it being a machine they had constructed. What if someone else had created it (maybe a lost or far removed civilization), and the present civilization can not duplicate it? What if it does have religious significance? A divine gift?

The Royal V Seal:At least I was right about this part from last season. Max is the point of the V. On the cave drawing by Nasedo, the pod chamber's rock formation was the point of the V when the healing stones were placed in the wall. If Zan is just the leader of his planet, then why does his royal seal include all five planets? (And why would replacement of just Zan cause wars among all five planets?) Is he the leader of the leaders? Planets orbit their star(s) at different distances, and their revolutions will vary, constantly changing their positions and distances from each other. They would not stay in anything like a V formation, so it is more symbolic than actual arrangement. Why is Zan's planet the central one? Is it symbolic of Zan's planet being the planet of origin for all the races, or Zan's leadership of the other four rulers as well, like the leader in the V formation of a flock of geese? Is Zan point man?

The V as a constellation Obviously the star system they are from is extremely far away. We can not physically see planets outside our solar(star) system even with the most powerful of telescopes (although we have detected, not seen, some by other methods). It has been said several times that they are not even from our galaxy, so we can not possibly see their V. As stated above, the V is symbolic of their star system, and the V we have been seeing is also symbolic of their star system. The pods were set to hatch at a particular time, and the V seemed to show up simultainiously with the podsters' biological awakening, which has preceeded the increase in their powers. I would guess that the SSers timed the hatching to the alining of a V constellation, as seen from Earth, for religious, superstitious, or signaling reasons.

The NY4Did anybody else notice only three pods??? Three were close together; there was a space on the left, and the wall changed on the right - leaving no room for another pod. Were they too cheap to make the fourth pod, or was Ava brought in by a SSer, like Tess - complete with a fake memory of her? A blooper or a clue? (If Tic-tac is an indicator, it's a blooper.)

They said they had had an SSer protector, but didn't seem to want to talk about it. Did the NY podsters turn on him/her and eat them? Did they really have a SSing protector, or were they abandoned, and found by the Skins, who fed them information?

Harding thought the NM podsters were vulnerable and needed protected. He also said he had been looking for them for a long time. I don't think another SSer would have walked away from their duty of protecting the other Royal Four (or rejects). Was their SSer Harding, who discovered they were not worth the effort, so he left them? Not likely - he would be more likely to perform a very "late-term abortion" before seeking out the NM4 (because he liked things tidy). Also, Tess would have realized by now that Daddy had been spending alot of time in NYC, even if she had not met them or heard about them. Harding would not have tolerated children like this. He had raised Tess rather strictly it seems. Their SSer had to be a different one, or maybe they were stolen and hatched for the purpose of discrediting the others and their past selves. Was there dissention among the SSers like there was among the Skins (like Courtney)? Was it sabotage?

Tess was able to fight back against them when they tried to get the granolith info from her, but she doesn't know what she did to them. They probably ran off, because writers would want the option of bring them back. BTW: they should have tried to talk Ava into staying. the NM4 are much nicer and at least she would not have been alone. Besides, 5 are stronger than 4. Any edge could be helpful.

BrodyWith Brody's positive attitude towards aliens and Max's knowledge that the posessor of Brody was his lifelong friend in another life, can Max trust him? Could Brody be next on the list of the ever burgeoning I Know An Alien Club? (I would have liked a Milton-organized "Alien Support Society", with a secret handshake better.)

Interesting about the possesion of humans. If other leaders can posess people, then Zan could have done the same thing during his lifetime. Had Zan visited Earth in spirit or in body when he was alive? Is this the connection the aliens have to the Native Americans? Were Zan's ideas gotten from a "walk-about" of the U.S.A.? Is that why the SSers brought his clones to Earth and specifically the U.S.? Would Zan the Original chuckle about Zan the Clone going to Social Studies class and learning about Kennedy?

Scarey Part : if the aliens can posess people, they could send innocent humans(even familiar faces) after Max to kill him. Would Max kill an unwitting human being used by aliens to defend himself? Max said Brody's name out loud, so the aliens at the summit know that they know each other. Trace Brody, and you have found Max. He is not a sitting duck for just Nicolas anymore.

The parents Hey, they noticed! They thought he went camping??? With him being "tense", quiet, depressed, and seeing a therapist, didn't they think maybe he had wandered off to commit suicide like thousands of teens, or that he may have run away? Did they report him as missing to the sheriff? Was anyone LOOKING for him?

Over 18 ONLY
Alien sex - "Accept no imitations". Rath and Lonnie appeared to be speaking from experience - lots of it. No wonder aliens have such a sexual appetite, if it's so great compaired to human sex. (Max will still settle for Liz - I'm sure) I hope Tess and Max did not sit there and watch R/L. Although Max is still a virgin, he did participate in alien foreplay with Liz, by making her skin glow under his hand (SH). Should we call this "pre-coital glow"? Could Max do this to any human girl, or just ones that are "changed"? What changes will this make in Liz's future sex life? Can Max have great alien sex with a changed Liz?

WHERE IS TIC-TAC?
Sleeping with the red herrings.

Palomino

Great work Palomino! Nice summary of a lot of our SF elements!

LSS

For everyone of you that was happy about alter Liz coming about, remember, Qfanny sits at home in front of the computer sadden by this turn of events. Although, I have to admit, it wasn't as bad as I expected, but I thought they could have done it better. The good news is, Ron Moore has finally settle the vicious rumors that Liz is an alien or Liz is a half alien. I guess I'll focus on the good stuff, because there was lots of good stuff to talk about from Max in the City (or is it Journey to New York.)

1) Brody's is not an alien, but a temporary. What does that mean? Oh sure, there's the answer that he's just a puppet for Larek. (I didn't catch all the names, but I got his.) What is about Brody and the others that makes them suited to be "possessed" by an alien? How is this done? What sort of technology could do this?

2) Max made a good decision. It's about time. I believe Tess when she said that he was a good King. (Oh, that Royal Highness stuff just made me laugh. It's so funny thinking that Max, an 18? year old kid from NM could be soo important. But then again, it's Roswell isn't it?) What did you make of the Royal Seal being planted on his brain anyway?

3) Valandra-Lonnie: She says she remembers being Valandra. Does that mean Rath, Ava, and Zan remember their former lives too? And why were they dumped in the sewers anyway? If they were insurance like Lonnie said in Meet the Dupes, then why throw away the policy? This doesn't seem right. Also, I was left if the impression that they had no protector. Karola, are their any cut scenes I can read up on?

4) Tess fighting off Lonnie and Rath. Would have been nice to see this scene. And how did they run away from Max so fast?

5) Liz as (oh god, this is painful to type) altered human and having powers. What sort of powers did she have? Does she have Tess like abilities? What Isabel helped her do wasn't a dreamwalk, nor did it seem like a Tess mindwarp. (And why didn't Tess do that--or maybe she did?) Nope. I don't think so.

6) Ava. I am going to miss this podster. She should stay in Roswell. And I wanted to hear her explaination on how Liz has changed. And Kyle too. (I am well aware of most of the theories behind this. Question for Ron Moore-- Did you read the Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology Threads? Zero's introduction sums up what you did in tonights episode.)

7) Continuity Issues. A lot of them have been solved or at least addressed. I wish there was more exposistion between Is/Michael/Ava and Liz because they seem to jump to the conclusion that Lonnie and Rath impersonated them rather quickly.

8) The five ruling planets. Which one did Rath point to? And we still don't have a name. What gives??????????????????????????

9) Thank God Liz told Maria. If anyone would know when the time has come to tell Max about the whole TEOTW premise, she will. Her timing has always been amazing.

But back to what everyone is probably talking about, obsessing about, giggling in joy about. I hate FrankenLiz theories. Now it's parading around the Roswell Timeline as a truth. Well, ok. I am now on the bandwangon, never mind I was kicking and screaming. I will admit it solves a lot of the circumstancial clues to Liz. The fact Liz get's visions, glowing hickeys, and strange rashs. Yeah, I can see where a lot of you think this is cool. But I kindly remind you that the problems of the Max and Liz relationship still exist. The fact that she has "changed" doesn't mean she can be Tess, anymore than Tess can be Liz. Both characters are important, but for those of us hoping that the writers bring the two (M/L) back together, nothing has changed. If it had changed, then Liz would have given Max a different answer tonight when he left her window.

I had actually written an entirely different post on this subject over the past two weeks, but having reread it, there is just too much anger in it. But here's a cut from it...

I spent months and months defending Liz's imporatance to the aliens as a human. I was pig headed and stubborn about it. I knew that Liz was special beyond the terms classified as normal, but I trusted the writers to explain this importance without diving into this cop out. Liz has always been right about everything in the Roswell canon. Thererfore, if Liz didn't seem to think that visions made her special in anyway whatsoever, then to jump to the conclusion that she altered was not acceptable in my eyes. It was Max that was special, not Liz. Max was the important, complex one, not Liz. Liz described herself as the "simplest of small town girls with the simplest of lives." Isn't that the quality that Max is attracted to?

I just want to say, there was nothing wrong with Liz as a regular human in the first place. My new hope is that the writers refrain from giving Liz too many powers too fast.

Frankly, I miss the old Roswell, with the human Liz. I strongly identified with Liz and I wonder just who the hell I can identify with now. Luckily, Shiri is the actress, and if anyone can bring me to love this "enhanced" Liz, I am sure she can do it.

I think I'll be eating humble pie for the rest of my life.

*****In case you can't tell, I liked the episode********

Tess seemed strange after Max found her. Did anybody think it may not be her but... Vilandra? Isabel's dupe seemed to be a major B**ch, who would stop at nothing to get what she wants. She could have shapeshifted into Tess in order to get a hold of the Granolith. If that was the case, Tess is food for the fish in Hudson Bay right now and Ava may prove to be more important than we thought. And yes, they should have tried to talk her into staying!

Thoughts of K'var coming to Earth and taking over Liz's body came to mind! Great ending for Season II, don't you think? Max would not be able to harm him (her?) and I can envision a year of suffering for all of us Dreamers! he he he!

BTW, contrary to what non-New Yorkers may think, the sewers are populated by a lot of workers, who are constantly walking the subway rails, tunnels, etc. The podsters would have been discovered!

Max was a good leader! Yeah! And I think all that talk that THE Granolith is only a religious icon is only that - talk! It is important because of bigger and better things! The question is what? Transporter, terra-former, time-travel to be, power giver, power granter, .....

A sci-fi book published years ago, "The Moth in God's Eye", had the planet in question populated by the same species, different races, divided by "jobs": military, worker bees, scientists, reproducers (Lannie & Rath?), philosophers, leaders, and their shapes, behavior, etc., was ruled by their "resume"! That book came to mind when I read Palomino's post above!

Have to assimilate the episode a bit further now!

Theory
What if Tess was Micheals sister..people have thought of this I know, but hear me out..and she was used as a decoy in the cloning and was never his bride?
If the aliens can descend on a human and take over their bodies perhaps this is what King Zan did and fell inlove with a female human and married her? Therefore tearing loyalties and such, making a way for Kivar to defeat him?
If the other planets do not like Kivar wouldn't they have helped King Zan in the first place?
Tess being the sister of Rath and possible friend and confidant to Zan. Perhaps this was a way for his family to put who they thought should be at his side?
I know "Alien Brody" said he was at the wedding, but was it Tess/Ava and Max/Zan's wedding? The wedding could have been on earth in secret b/c "Alien Brody" did not mention this in front of the other aliens.
Far fetched? Maybe, but its worth a thought, Yes?

~I thought it was funny when Max put his fingers behing Liz's head to indicate that she maybe turning into an alien. Ava must have told them what may happen.

Thanks for the great job you did last week starting the SF thread! I still haven't seen "Dupes" yet...my 12 yr old forgot to tape it.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
For everyone of you that was happy about alter Liz coming about, remember, Qfanny sits at home in front of the computer sadden by this turn of events.

Look at it as a win-win situation. She is NOT an alien. She is simply "altered" -- of course we don't really understand the extent to which this will effect her (at least we don't understand if weu are not spoiled...ahem). There is NO WAY that I thought she was an alien from Max's planet--I've said that over and over again...so you and I were in the same camp...sort of!

What IS interesting is that Ava indicated that Zan and she never "connected" too well...THAT is extremely puzzling. There is no reason that what happened between Max and Liz should be duplicated with the NY4 unless there is a broader force (fate/destiny) at work here...and that QFanny takes us a couple of steps away from just being "altered". And like you, I'm not too comfortable with that--unless we revive the old soulmate theme that we've seemed to have lost in Season 2.

quote: about from Max in the City (or is it Journey to New York.)

Out of deference to Moonfire's General Discussion thread I used "Max in the City" in this thread's title...but you are right...the episode's title on the screen was Journey to New York.

LSS

LSS
When it came over the satellite, the title card said "Max in the City".

OK, noone seems to have caught it, so I'll ask:
THREE PODS !?!
There were four podsters in NY, but they had 3 pods on the wall. There was no space where Zan's pod might have been, so it's not as though they took it down. What happened?

Remember: Liz is not an
We told you so!

LSS and Palomino-- You posted some pretty interesting stuff on alien sex.

[i]orginally posted by LSS quote:
1) ALIEN SEX. Well--according to tonight's eppy, we can all wait with baited breath for that coming frame where we are treated to alien mating rituals. What makes alien sex so much better than the normal earthly variety? How DO aliens mate anyway? Only time will tell, but it is interesting fantasizing...opps...should we say "speculating" about it?
Loan me Max Evans and I'll let you know. Seriously folks, I think that alien sex has to be a lot like the regular sex. Mating is done the human way, as Tess told Max in Four Squares. I think there are a few fanfics out there that address this question better than I can.
[i]orginally posted by Palomino quote:
Alien sex - "Accept no imitations". Rath and Lonnie appeared to be speaking from experience - lots of it. No wonder aliens have such a sexual appetite, if it's so great compaired to human sex. (Max will still settle for Liz - I'm sure) I hope Tess and Max did not sit there and watch R/L. Although Max is still a virgin, he did participate in alien foreplay with Liz, by making her skin glow under his hand (SH). Should we call this "pre-coital glow"? Could Max do this to any human girl, or just ones that are "changed"? What changes will this make in Liz's future sex life? Can Max have great alien sex with a changed Liz?
I think you have something with the alien sex and foreplay we saw in SH. Glowing hickeys, rashes, visions could all be methods of "exciting" ones organs for reproduction. And if Liz is now changed, (still human but changed), then her physicals responses to Max's attention may be visual clues that Liz is ready for intimacy.

As far as finding out about this question, I implore the writers to get those kids out of high school first! One of the reasons why I like Roswell so much is that is not about the bump and grind storylines you find on the other WB shows. There is no such thing as casual sex! And I would hate to see Lonnie's and Rath's lack of morals filter out as something that is okay for teenagers. (BTW-Four Squares scared the hell out me when I first saw it.)

Also from Palomino's post
quote:
According to the NY4, the granolith has religious meaning "like the Holy Grail", "they worship it". Was Max told this to make him think it was not a functional machine, but a relic that should be sent back, since it was useless anyway? Did they make it up or is this what they were told? Who told the NY4 this anyway - an SSer, or Nicolas? Were they told the truth?

1. The granolith was removed from the homeworld, but the other four planets did not know it until the summit.
2. Nicolas said vaguely that they (K' var's government) had known about it for some time.
3. The leaders of the other planets seemed shocked that it had been moved to Earth.
4. It was referred to as THEE granolith. There is only one.
5. It sounds like the granolith is not an object that is seen or used very often by many people. Is it a sacred instrument that is for Zan's use only? Do the Skins want it only to prevent Zan from using it?
6. You would think another could be made if it was just a matter of it being a machine they had constructed. What if someone else had created it (maybe a lost or far removed civilization), and the present civilization can not duplicate it? What if it does have religious significance? A divine gift?

I thought they lied about the granolith's religious significance. If it is a religious symbol, it would be like Indiana Jones finding the Lost Ark wouldn't it?
1) The granolith was removed before the war broke out? The war has lasted 50 years. The chamber for the podsters and the granolith was set up in 1947. This would imply that the problems with the five planets existed before the war occurred. How did Max's people know to hide it before conflict broke out?
2-3) K'var's control over the planets seems to be based under the fact that the submitting parties believe he has the granolith. Akin to the burglar threatening with a gun to get what they want. The other parties were surprised that the granolith was on Earth, as you say in point 3.
4) I agree. There is only one granolith.
5) If Zan is the only person that can use it, why did CW pursue Isabel to reveal its where abouts. I think that the granolith can be used by all the podsters. Tess even thought it could hear them. Lonnie and Rath even knew about the granolith. The fact that the skins want it, desperately so, implies that the granolith is their ticket to safety. (Could mean it's a transporter.)
6) I don't think that the granolith is a religious gift anymore than the reminant from an even more advanced society. Wouldn't that be like prehistoric man finding an atom bomb? But, seeing as I am often wrong about Roswell, let's go with it. If it is a religious gift, then Max's reign most likely would be political and religious. Max being the custodian of the relic, could us this position to hurl himself as the leader, "Hand picked by God." An interesting idea, but even Max says "he's not god". And that suggests to me that whatever political situation Twilo has, there is a "seperation of church and state."

I'll check the three/four pods later.

I hope that this post is up to your incredable standards. I am so glad that I don't have you two as teachers LSS and Palomino.

Anyway, I found the most interesting detail in this episode to be Tess' weird behavior at the end...what did Lonnie and Rath do to her? Why didn't she do her Phoenix sage sreechy thing? Hmmmm...

I also loved Ava. I was hoping that Rath and Lonnie had killed Tess and we could start from scratch with the much more likeable Ava. I hope she comes back.

Loved it.

quote:Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
Just a couple of comments on the great posts above:
Tess seemed strange after Max found her. Did anybody think it may not be her but... Vilandra?

I agree with you, BLUECORNMOON. That was my first impression. As to what became of NM-Tess and NY-Rath, if this scenario is true, remains to be seen. They are both dead, or Lonnie is planning a double-cross and, temporarily, had Rath kidnap NM-Tess so she could implement her plan. It makes perfect sense that she would do whatever she has to do to get close to Max. The best way to accomplish this is to 'become' NM-Tess (maybe they are shapeshifters). Max began to feel trust Tess and affection (I loved his protectivness of her; I do think he is by nature cautious, but with enough time , he would reveal to NM-Tess what he might not reveal to the other podsters and, at this time, not Liz).

As for the end of the episode. This was a grail moment. Wrong question, MAx. No healing. That is not the question to ask. Lack of trust. Fasten your seatbelts. It is going to (continue to) be a bumpy ride.

Great posts all.

Rosta

I believe Liz is human, but more human than human. I think she has human DNA. Just that more of her DNA is being expressed. Perhpas that 'alien' part that may be in all human DNA. For me, it depends on how one defines what is human v. alien ( I put up a link on panspermia - a convenient link, but not the best one I have- on the SIGNS&SYMBOLS thread over Thanksgiving).

I believe the powers are in the frontal (R>L) frontal and temporal lobes/limbic system. In support of what BLUECORNMOON posted above, it appears that perhaps more of the brain is 'activated' as a result of the release of some 'new' neurotrasnmitters (or just more in quantity of what we already have??) released by the transsciption of previously unexposed portions of the DNA, often termed 'junk DNA' but that is not a good term. The secret, the key, is in Liz (ie, her DNA)?

I am not convinced Rath and Lonnie came from pods. Tess/Ava are probably something else entirely. It seems that Rath and Lonnie have been 'scripted'. They have been fed a lot of information and it just sounds as if they are parroting information (false memories engramed or fed to them may also be a possibility). I don't think they are what they seem. It is too convenient. Too pat. It is certainly easy to convince the NM groups that there is another set of pods.

I still think there is a hidden power/agency (and possibly of an earthly origin??) at work seeking the power of the Granilith. Lonnie has her own agenda, but, ultimately, she seems destined to be trumped. If Lonnie is pretending to be NM-Tess now, then perhaps it is Liz who possesses the power to 'see' her for what she is.

I, too, wonder where Dupe-Tess was off to?

I think the Granilith-builders are long turned to dust. It's existence probably existed in the collective unconscious or consciousness.

Whoever masters the power of the granilith has the power that has existed since 'the beginning' might be the drive. The power to rule, ie, Max's family, may have existed in the mastery of the G-lith, even if the HOW of if is not understood. It appears to be a genetic/'divine' capacity.

Others, throughout time, have sought this power. I believe a great game, chess-like- is being played to recover the granilith and the dupes are being duped (easy with their selfishness and greed) but the podsters, as a result of their life experiences, are more resisstant. And I'm not really convinced the NM podsters came from pods, either.

Rosta

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
This was a grail moment.

Should have known you'd pick that up! But you know, it is an interesting ironic reversal of the myth. Instead of questing for the grail...Max now HAS it and has to keep it from other more nefarious questors...what do you make this turn of the mythic elements? Or is the granolith a fake grail and not the one of Max's true quest?

Just questioning the questly referents here!

LSS

Initial thoughts as I watch the episode

1. What was that paper Max signed, will it become important?
2. Nicholas confirms that the NY4 are the lesser beings.
3. Alien possession, so these Aliens on the home planet are able to journey thousands of LY to possess a human body (gee they have A LOT of power, does the royal four have this power also?
4. Brody is one of the humans being possess by the Aliens.
5. I no longer hold to the Ava/Tess switching, I now believe the reason that Tess is outwardly different from Ava is because of Nasadeo, he raised her and gave her the confidence, Ava has stated that she loved Zan, but Zan has always looked for something else. So the Max/Liz/Tess triangle (I have to believe) will be resolved by Max and Liz being together (I'm a closet dreamer) with Max and Tess being good friends and Tess being Max's main council.
6. Did Tess do the same thing to Lonny and Rath, that she did to the skins? Did they change Tess in some way?
7. Did you guys have a tiny bit of doubt that, that was actaully Lonny and not Isabel?
8. Do Liz's silence a continued lie of sleeping thing or admission that it was false?
9. What is exactly Liz's power, to connect with Max, if so...does this mean that Kyle has the same power?

These are all the questions that I have and mostly likely will not read nor respond to other post until tomorrow at work.

Until then...

Ciao
Ms. Gwyn

LSS
When it came over the satellite, the title card said "Max in the City".
[/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm...the title on the screen said the other. What is going on??? Maybe it was a subtitle? Truthfully, I've never even noticed the on screen titles before.

LSS

It has to be Granilith + somethings else + Max and/or Liz and/or a group of 5 (or 7,8, 12..??) with the beepers and/or stones. I have a feeling the stones have gone the way of the Native Americans in Roswell, and have been usurped by the beepers.

I believe that there is a musical and mathematics solution, at least in part (octave law?, Pythagorean golden mean?, Fibronacci numbers?, etc)

Perhaps 'the 5' beepers
were scattered. Why keep all the elements/pieces in one place for the unscrupulous to find?

Great book folks: 'The 8', Katherine Neville.

Now, Sci fi: Hmmmm....the "possession" thing too seems scarcely Sci fi, rather cashing in on the Rosemary's Baby cult reawakening. I hope we don't go the horror route, one "Harvest" per season is more than enough for me.

So Tess poofed Lonnie and Rath into oblivion...at least that's my take.

Am I the only one who thinks it strange that Ava is sent off without concern? I mean, alien powers would have come in handy when I was a young woman alone with a backpack on the road, but still, what kind of life will she have all alone after living with the others for so long?

Sorry, I'm neglecting the Scifi again. The main concepts were the planets and the distance and the difficulty in travel. It seems the only chance of peace would be if Alex could be the Henry Ford of Granoliths.

The etched planet map on Max's brain seemed a little Mark-of-the-Beastish, but it really refers back to the cave painting and the symbols that Michael, Isabel, and Max all "recognize." Nothing quite like having an archetype etched into your brain, I guess.

LSS, if your 12-year-old harbors any of the jealousy of my almost-12-year-old with my fascination with Roswell...well, let's just say that's not your best candidate for taping. I can send you a very mediocre copy if you can't locate a better one.

I have a question. What happened to Zan's body? Did he turn to dust or is his body in a morgue somewhere in NY?

I haven't seen the episodes and i haven't read anyone mentioning what actually happened to him. I'm just curious.

LSS

I don't think there usually are on screen titles. The WB's website also listed the title as Max in the City.

BCM, I love the idea that Vilandra may be impersonating Tess. I must say that the Max/Tess you're-always-supporting-me-scene struck me as very true on one level (as far as season 2 is concerned), but also as a very big red flag. Combined with previous statements like "I don't trust Tess" and the (nearly) forgotten portrayal of Tess as less than trustworthy first season I think that something is up.

As for the demonstration of Max's judgment, did anyone else think that he made right decision at the summit for the wrong reasons? I'm hoping there was more to his decision than what he told Isabel at the end.

The royal seal Did Zan have it too?

The pods being dumped in the sewer I think Nickolas summed it up pretty well -- I think this means that the Dupes are the "rejects". Our podsters were carefully hidden away with the Granolith, and kept safe. The others were discarded in the jumble of the NY sewer system.

The V What bothers me more is not so much that a V-shaped planetary system seems unlikely (whatever happened to round orbits?) as the fact that it is extremely unlikely that we could see a planetary constellation from Earth. We have trouble enough seeing our own planets in the sky. To be able to see a clear pattern of planets from another solar system/galaxy ... well, it just ain't gonna happen.

The Granolith - I think Lonnie referred to it so casually as "the holy grail" not because it had religious significance, but because a) maybe she doesn't know entirely what it does either and she was trying to fish information out of Max and b) the reference points to the Granolith's elusiveness. It's hard to find, it has special powers, etc.

The 50-year war. This would mean that the original royal four died early on in the fighting and their remains were cloned and transported (possibly light years away) to Earth in an instant. Does that seem likely to you? If the distance between "home" and Earth is so far that the emissaries can't travel it easily, then I'd think it would have taken quite a while for the podsters to be transported as well.

Did anyone else notice that Max's powers extend to give him astonishing reflexes? (when he caught the ball that Rath was slapping around). He should be on a sports team with Kyle! (Hmm. Panty Brigade thoughts are popping up ... but that's for another thread...)

OK, back to work. Hopefully someone will find something interesting in my musings.

Part of the problem for me is that the personality of Tess is undergoing a rather drastic turnabout from manipulative vamp to earth mother, and I'm not finding the switch very convincing. Assuming that Ava/Tess's strong suit was loyalty, might the original Ava's influence have been responsible for some of the 'wrong' decisions that King Zan made? Might her motivation have been jealousy or might she not have had her own agenda, despite her evident affection and respect for Zan's formidable powers?

And finally, might Tess (though an alien hybrid) actually be a puppet of sorts? Perhaps manipulated by who-knows-who back on the home planet?

Re the whole Max/Liz thing (Dreamer here), I still think ROSWELL must properly resolve the Max/Liz/Tess triangle, because as things stand now, Max has a little de facto harem going. Tess's wistful comment that Zan must have been a hell of a husband suggests she is really falling for Max. But we know Max will and can never love her the way he loves Liz. Isn't this just Archie/Betty/Veronica all over again (with hair colors switched)? Haven't we evolved beyond this? No doubt Max will eventually learn the truth about Liz one way or another (he already knows it emotionally), but why not sooner rather than later?

I have to now digress and report that some N.Y. fans of ROSWELL got to meet producer Kevin Brown last May after 'Destiny' aired. Since LSS's 'Science Fiction of' thread had been full of Liz-Is-Changed speculation for many weeks by that time, I distinctly remember bringing this up to Kelly in front of the group. As I recall he looked as though the idea never occurred to him and then pooh-poohed it because that would then mean that Kyle had changed too. What a difference five months makes! I suspect the ROSWELL writers get half their ideas from LSS's threads. You should have copyrighted them, LSS!

I rather like the idea that Liz has changed. I suspect her powers (and Kyle's) are much less strong or extensive than the podsters, but may strengthen if worked on. Makes me wonder if Kyle's drift toward Buddhism might have had to do with 'changes' he felt in himself but couldn't explain?

I haven't been here in a while but I just had to take the time to read through others' thoughts on the new developments. Unfortunately I am trying to do this at work and that isn't too easy.

I would like to suggest a couple of things and ask a question or two if I may,

One, I really like the idea of Liz being changed. It really helps to explain the flashes. But I am a little nervous with the idea that whenever Max heals someone he changes them. What I would like to purpose is that Liz was really altered in the pilot not when she was healed but when Max made the connection with her to show her that "I am still just me." He said at the time that he had never tried that, to make the connection go backward. He was trying to show Liz what he was like on the inside, his emotions and perceptions. Perhaps in this process he truly gave a piece of himselve to her.

Because if it was the actually process of healing her that changed her than of course Kyle is changed too. But so would Riverdog be changed, remember when Michael healed his ankle in Into the Woods? And what about Max healing Michael (Independence Day) and Tess healing Max (Ask Not), I realize that is a bit of a strech, alien to alien healing, but it just seems to me that would open a major pandora's box. Ava knew that Max healed Liz, but she may have assumed that was when he reversed the direction of the connection when really it happened later.

I just have to throw this out to see if anyone else noticed this......I am a huge Quatum Leap fan. Loved it, nothing like my Roswell obsession, that was normal compared to this, but still I loved it. Now, when Liz took Is's hand and went in her mind to Max in New York I was immediately reminded of how on a few occassions Sam was able to see someone from his time other than Al, when Al would hold that other person's hand. Sam could see then see the person but could not hear them. It seemed to me that was exactly what was happening. Liz was using her own power to connect with Max on a subconcious level but she needed Is to help her mind travel to New York through Is if you will, but she was the one connecting to Max. Probably crazy, but that is what it reminded me of.

Well, I know that when I started this post I had a couple of questions, but I am drawing a blank at the moment so I will stop for now and see what others think.

Wisty

And then when he "reversed" their connection, it sort of cemented their bond (heh heh, just love working a cement pun into the conversation whenever possible. *ahem*)

Logically, then, the smaller healings wouldn't be as extreme, or as binding. And maybe Kyle wasn't actually dying ... someone correct me if I'm wrong, but stomach wounds aren't always fatal, right? Although I guess we'll never know unless Max tries to "reverse-connect" with him too.

Btw, Wisters, I saw the Quantum Leap echo too. Good catch, eh?

JTB

What if Ava was the leaky pod and thats why there are only four. One was already broken so couldnt be born. We know it could not be Lonnie and Rath because of what Lonnie said,"We broke through the membrane to the sweet life of the sewers," So it could eiether be Ava or Zan who was born early.For some reason I am betting Ava she seems to know more than than the others. She also proably was the one with the protector and that could be reason why the others dont know who there protector was. Ava was born early the protector was then caught by the FBI as we know they did catch one and Ava could have brough the others to New York. I know its a strecth but its a thought

I agree that healing someone close to death and healing a simpler injury is not the same, but I still think that the reverse connection is much more significant in that Max was opening himself up to Liz, giving of himself if you will, hereas the process of healing meant that he saw flashes from her and had to physically repair damages to issues/organs.

One more thing, I really liked the explaination of how they were able to hold the summit. Leaders of the other planets using humans as vessels was more interesting than looking as some intergalatic holographic communication. We already know that telepathic/mind control powers are possible, isn't this just more of the same admittedly to a much higher degree?

Wisty

Destiny

Destiny

Oh well, to the Sci-Fi aspects:

Granolith - I don't believe that it has any religious significance. Khivar seems to be a pretty ruthless character to be interested in the return of a religious icon; a return to a people who do not even know that it is missing. I think that Khavar was banking on Max's bad decision history or stupid NM Teen present to get it back. Max would be prone to return a benevolent symbol but would bulk at returning a power source. Then Khivar would kill Max and have the granolith - he gave up nothing. He still sits on the throne. As to the granolith itself, we know that it can generate husks or adapts to survival in different environments and can be altered to permit time travel but we still have no idea of its true purpose.

Offer to Go Home - Not happy with that thought. However, the monogram said that she was taking on a recognizable form(Destiny) and Nasedo, when he was being healed (Destiny) had flashed of a non-human form, so, would the home planet support a human manipulated life form? Would the Granolith be needed to alter the environment (Harvest) and also, what with the red giant exploding, does their planet still exist?

Religious Max - As to the question of religious rulers, many cultures have their healers/shamans as leaders. I think that Max fits better into this type of society. Also, he has said that he isn't God (Leaving Normal) although now that I think about it, Ancient Rome made their deceased rulers gods. Have to think about this a little more...

Allie Brody - Like the idea that Max may have an allie in Brody/Larek. When Larek was speaking of his past life with Zan, he sounded positively nostalgic. Perhaps, Zan was not such a terrible leader as we are lead to believe by Khavar and mignons. I wouldn't be surprised if Khavar didn't assassinate Zan's father and set up Volandra as a traitor/dupe( no pun intended). Sounds so Claudius the Emperor to me with all the murderous intrigues of Imperial Rome.

Shapeshifter and Protectors - I view the SS as drones who take orders (Skin & Bones) and have limited abilities and also limited knowledge of the Podsters' purpose so Palominos's thought that Shapeshifers/Royal Guards are a different race would work. After all, the Vatican Guard are actually Swiss. As to the second protector, could the NY4 protector be TicTac. Once he realized that the Royal 4 survived, could it be his responsibility now to protect them and forfeit the dupes to fate?

Alien Sex - I think that this was just a case of Rath "whipping it out ...to measure." Max could make any species glow (sorry, purely visceral response). Qfanny - never fear. I think that sex will be a definite no-no until graduation. Why else the "I'm a virgin, you're a virgin" fountain scene?

Altered Liz - Yeah, at least not half- alien. Qfanny - do what I do. I believe that Liz is a conductor/mirror. She can reflect/intensify already existing powers but is not a source. It helps. Was this change brought about by the reverse connection in the CD, not the healing OR as RiverDog (RiverDog) said "the balance ...can change both your body...unless you navigate it properly." Perhaps Max lost that balance when he saved Liz but was controlled when he saved Kyle. Either way, I'm hoping that Liz is the only one altered and even then in a minor way or we will be having mutants cropping up all over Roswell.. Questin -why didn't FM warn Liz about the change or did he "you are not letting yourself change & you've got to do something about that"(End of the World)?.

One last - I don't trust T***. Never did and never will. She doesn't remember what she does or how she does it. and it totally out of control with her powers. Now with the theory that T*** could possibly be Lonnie in disguise (great idea!) I am so paranoid about her. We shall see. Am really sorry that Ava left. She seemed to be a good source of information and wasn't annoying.

Sorry for the long post - I can only do this when I *cough * call in sick *cough*.

Palomino's excellent post raised some questions in my mind. I just want to address a few of them.

On survival...could Nacedo's ability to survive on Earth be realated to his access to the granolith? Did he go to it on a regular basis to get some type of energy pickmeup? Why didn't the Skins use the human DNA technology that Max's people used.

Does the granolith have the ability to revert the pod squad back to their original form that is probably necessary for survival on their home planet.

Alien sex? Do Rath and Lonni really have anything to compare it with. Maybe it's pretty much like good human sex...which a lot of people seem to enjoy.

If Zan had done a "walk about" on Earth could this be where he made an original connection with one of Liz's ancestors? The enhanced human componant can explain the things that have happened to her since Max brought her back, but it still does NOT explain his seemingly instinctive fixation on her from the moment he first saw her.

If space travel is such a big deal, I wonder how long in Earth years it took the podsters and the skins to travel from their home planet.

Interesting that last year, (in May I think) Kevin Kelly Brown said that they had not considered the changed Liz senario. Was he speaking an untruth or did he just not know what Jason Katims was up to. Or do I simply not remember this statement clearly?

Why do we only see the aftermath of Tess's traumatic experiences, and not those experiences actually happening to her?

I'll be disappointed if Kyle is also changed. Ava made it sound like the healing was all it took for change. I hope it takes more than that.

Rofl Well it sure did make Tess and Max look uncomfortable...

SF

Just popping in with a few thoughts after seeing MITC and reading
some posts:

(1) Liz's powers- It seems to me that Liz's power comes from or
basically is the connection she shares with Max. We knew there
was an unusual bond between these two ever since the pilot. Now
we are getting a chance to see how unusual it is. It would seem
this is limited to Liz. In EOTW, Liz asked Kyle if he saw things
when Max healed him. He didn't. Apparently, Liz did.
Intrestingly, in the pilot, Liz asked Kyle if he felt things when
he looked at her. This seemed to be more than a "how do you feel
about me" question. In any case, we now wonder, what is the
extent of Liz's power? Was her appearance before Max related to
Izzy's dreamwalking ability or can she "appear" before Max on her
own? BTW- did any of you think Liz's materializing before Max and
warning him was reminiscent of a guardian angel?

Here's another thought to ponder: In MITC, Liz could appear
before Max but he couldn't hear her. This could be because of the
distance involved. A more likely explanation is that Liz's powers
aren't fully developed yet. In EOTW, Future Max said once these
two had sex, they became inseparable. Why? It could be (A)a
normal closeness that should come with intimacy or (B)the unusual
connection they share is cemented when they make love. This would
seem to increase Liz's powers. Of course, like someone else
mentioned, I can wait to find out which one is true but it is
interesting to think about.

(2) Ava/Tess- It's interesting that Ava and Tess seemed so
dissimilar. And especially that Ava seemed more in touch with her
humanity. It's true that Tess spent most of her life with Nacedo
but Rath, Lonnie and even Zan (he stole without blinking and
seemed aggressive in a way different than Max) seemed to be
degenerates and they didn't seem to fully accept Ava. It would
seem in such an environment Ava would have reason to be like Tess
or even worse. That aside, I agree they should have tried to get
Ava to stay or at least explain some things to them. (eg. How
exactly was Liz changed?) Also, did it seem funny to you that
Tess said she and Nacedo were close? Last season she bemoaned
that he was not human in the least (not the nurturing type) and
this season she said again he was no "Ward Cleaver".

(3) Lonnie- I don't think Lonnie can shapeshift or that she
changed into Tess. In MTD, Rath and Lonnie impersonated Mike and
Isabel, people they already looked like. The only changes they
needed to make were minor ones: clothing, hair, grooming, makeup.
Since it has been established that they can manipulate molecular
structures, this would not be difficult or mean they had to
shapeshift. If this is true, Tess' statement in Max to the Max is
still true, the pod squad cannot shapeshift since they have human
bodies. As to what happened to Rath and Lonnie at the end, I
think they got away and will resurface later on. After all, we
still have that Vilandra sub-plot going on and Lonnie is
obviously closer to being the Vilandra traitor than Izzy.

(4) Kivar- So Kivar is still on the homeworld. That would seem to
preclude his being reborn on earth as Grant Sorenson. However,
Grant has been missing lately hasn't he?

And we have to also wonder what happens now. We know Max is
warming to Tess and they keep throwing that "mating" idea at him.
We also know Nicholas, Lonnie and Rath know where the NM4 are and
how Max feels about Liz. And now Max has made enemies of former
comrades, it seems. Life is just getting more and more
complicated for these guys, isn't it?
-JC

Did anyone else notice that Max's powers extend to give him astonishing reflexes? (when he caught the ball that Rath was slapping around).

I'm glad that someone else noticed Max's extraordinary physical speed. We've been getting little hints of more-than-human strength and speed throughout the series. I've mentioned it before, but here it is again:

In Leaving Normal, Max is able to knock over a bathroom stall wall with a single punch of frustration.

In 285S Michael gives Kyle a shove which sends him flying across the room. Granted, there's quite a difference in mass between the two, but Kyle is astonished and I think a little frightened by Michael's strength. Remember, this is Mr. Athelete of the Month, who is used to getting shoved around.

In White Room, Max rises from his chair and grabs Pierce with extraordinary speed, despite his drugged and weakend state. (Come to think of it, I believe that Nasedo, as the FBI agent, gets to Pierce's side with great spead during Max's escape.)

And now Max catches this ball with ease. What makes this event different from the others is that those were all spontaneous, emotionally driven situations. This time it seemed to be a more deliberate action, as a way of Max asserting himself.

I like the way that these little hints of physical enhancement are inserted into the story without a big issue being made of them. I hope they continue to give us these little reminders that there are more to their powers than the obvious.

The V formation of planets really confused me. ("Nothing like having an archetype etched into your brain"...Shapeshifter, too funny!) Did they really mean planets and not solar systems? I think it was Palomino who brought up the idea that the constellation as viewed from Earth was not meant to literally be the planets, but rather symbolic of "home". I suppose that's the only plausable explanation, but I suspect that it really was a goof on the writers' part. Wasn't the upper right hand "star" really Venus? I'm still a little confused. Can someone explain it?

Max is becoming more protective towards and understanding of Tess, which is fine by me (as long as it remains platonic!). It's sort of along the lines of what Future Max wanted. I think he is simply being true to his nature, now that they've faced so much adversity together and he feels he can trust her. But what I find most interesting is Tess' protectiveness towards Max. I think this is something beyond her desire to be with him. The fireball that she released in Wipeout (without really understanding what she was doing) was possible because Max was being directly threatened.

Oops, I just realized that's not entirely accurate! It was the GRANOLITH that was being threatened. Perhaps Tess' primary role, beyond that of Bride and one of the Royal Four is as protector/guardian of the Granolith. It was when Max was in danger of revealing the location of the Granolith that she was able to release the fireball. It was when Rath and Lonni were trying to force the location from her mind that she somehow was able to fight them off. She repelled them in a way that left her exhausted and which she doesn't fully understand or remember. Hmm.

Now for the "changed" Liz...
I'm glad she is really just human. I *think* (being unspoiled in this regard) that her so-called powers will extend only to the connection she has with Max. I like to think of the change as being more spiritual, having to do with a bonding between the two of them, though clearly there has to be some physical mechanism at work. I maintain that the change occured because of the tremendous emotional investment on Max's part during that initial moment of healing. His action was spontaneous and from the heart with little thought for his own safety. He poured himself into that healing because of his strong feelings for her. He gave a gift of himself in that action, and further cemented it with the deliberate sharing of himself in the later connection.

Has Kyle been changed too? I think changed only in the way that anyone having a near-death experience might be affected. What Kyle feels may be very profound, but probably does not signify any changes akin to Liz's. (By the way, to whomever wondered about the lethal nature of his wound, I think he was shot in the chest and not the gut.) Max's healing of Kyle was more of a physical act, without the emotional investment that he demonstrated with Liz. Remember, at this time Kyle was still an adversary and Max was clearly hesitant to heal him.

(Side note with regards to healing, laying on of hands and giving of one self...as a massage therapist, I can tell you that INTENT makes all the difference in the quality of the massage. For the therapist, it is the difference between feeling simply wrung out after giving a massage and feeling enormously satisfied and also somehow both energized and drained. If it's done properly, it really does feel like a deeply personal gift that you've given your client rather than just having gone through the mtions. I can't help but make the comparison in my mind between the healings done on Liz and Kyle.)

Yeah, and I don't think there's a "changed" pidgeon flying around either.

Did the certification of Max's authenticity look painful to anyone else? Max's expression seemed to be a combination of wonder and distress. How did that scene strike everyone else?

Rachelle
P.S. Hi Wisters!

Hi Elliot!

Let's hear it for the altered Liz theory! And yes--I wondered that about Kyle/Buddhism too. I mean...talk about really odd character development. I wasn't sure if we were looking at a LA religious fad or something worthy of comment in our plot!

BTW...I think that Liz is going to be more than simply altered IF the writers carry through an interesting idea they introduced last night. If Ava did not "connect" with Zan because he was waiting for someone else (and we all see this as analogous in some ways to the M/T/L relationship), then our writers are going to have to explain this somehow. There is no reason for there to be unrest between Ava/Zan. We susect that Max met Liz and had a relationship with her first because (?) Tess was not around. In other words, it was "accidental" in some ways (unless one resorts to the idea of predestined "soulmates" that cross species boundaries...an idea that we have not picked up in Season 2).

So--if we are looking at a M/L/T amd A/Z pattern it has to come from SOMEWHERE...fate, destiny, the home planet...take your pick.

LSS

JTB

JTB

What is the source of that document? It has been reproduced but it is not clear if it is an enlargment from an eppy or what. If it is from an eppy then the only problem that we might run into is that FF does not like us to post links to other sites. I wonder if the owner of that site would allow you to reprint it on this one (but only if it is "real" -- aka from an eppy.

LSS

quote:Originally posted by The Kender:

I have a question. What happened to Zan's body? Did he turn to dust or is his body in a morgue somewhere in NY?

I may be alone, but I thought I picked up a wishful thinking glance from Ava when Liz revealed how Max saved her life. I was positive that Ava would ask if Max could bring Zan back from the great alien beyond. Which led me to also wonder what became of the body. And it was mentioned last week, but I'll repeat: isn't it awfully alarming that Zan, leader of an entire interplanetary civilization, could be killed just by being hit by a truck on a NYC street? I'm shocked. Talk about a human side!

Ava explaining her relationship to Zan was another great compromize for the Tess/Liz struggle. She believed Zan was just killing time with her until something better came along. This parallels Max/Liz/Tess drama nicely. Yes, he’s supposed to be with Tess, blah blah blah, but true love conquers all, yadda yadda yadda. On to more interesting topics:

I also thought the use of the emissaries, and their human 'hosts' was a great explanation of abduction. We've already established that the human DNA used to create the podsters came from abductees. So this makes two, count 'em, two good reasons for aliens to abduct humans. And it explains Brody’s predisposition to ‘lose time,’ meaning, unlike we speculated before, that he was not reacting to the time warp in Wipe Out. My question is, why him? Does he keep getting abducted because he has the communicator? Or because he’s receptive ("a believer")? I thought he started collecting alien paraphernalia AFTER his first abduction, meaning he didn’t originally have the communicator when he was first kidnapped? And was he an emissary in the past? Was there a summit in the past? Or was his first abduction totally unrelated? (Side note, wouldn’t it have been far easier to use bodies of New Yorkers for the summit, not people obviously from a wide range of geographic locations and then have them zapped to NY?)

Like Plumeria I also tended to agree with the interpretation of Nicholas, the ultimate spinmeister, of the royal rejects being "flushed down the sewer." He has quite a way of turning a phrase, and as a PR person I respect his skills at uniquely and memorably explaining himself. Sorry I didn’t notice the 3-pod thing, but yeah, my guess is cost-cutting on special effects. (Which is also my theory for why we don’t see Tess being tortured. Those fight scenes have to run up some numbers.) Not the most efficient way of disposing of leftover pods, but what the heck. I thought I remembered in Dupes Lonnie mentioning that they left NM to go to NY, the capital of the hemisphere. I guess I was mistaken (again).

But color me unsatisfied with the dismissal of the dupes ‘protector.’ If these pretenders are an experiment gone wrong, and they were supposed to be destroyed upon arrival, they would not have warranted their own protector. They were abandoned in the sewer and left for dead. Instead of a nurturing embryonic cave wall in the sunny desert in which to grow, they were taken to the mecca of filth and depravity and cast out. (Apologies to New Yorkers. I’m just making a point here.) Chances are the mix of human to alien elements was off, they never got their protector, and they were forced to fend for themselves. No mommygram to cling to, just garbled memories of the home planet. The missing information they made up, embellished, and/or learned from the Skins they encountered somehow. If Nicholas hates NY so much, how did these guys hook up on Earth in the first place? And if the desert climate didn’t suit him, wouldn’t NY be more to his liking anyway? At least it’s humid!

The dupes and their powers. Add heightened sexual response to the list of ways their powers exceed our four. But Tess is turning out to be quite powerful in resisting Rath and Lonnie’s attempt to ‘get’ the Granolith location. The Granolith is proof that our four are the real McCoys, not just the mark of the beast that Max has emblazoned in his head (because if you recall, Zan was going to attend the summit but would not vote the way Rath and Lonnie wanted, so I assume Zan would have passed the test also).

JanetM3 said Max made the right decision for the wrong reasons. I assume this means he didn’t want to go ‘home’ and so rejected the deal. However, now the wars continue, but his life is (unwittingly) spared. Slightly off-topic, but I’m more inclined to think he made the wrong choice for the right reasons. Call me a populist, I buy Lonnie’s constant twanging that "lives hang in the balance." He didn’t know he’d be a dead dauphin as soon as he sets foot on the home planet, but he chose to continue the war, and keep the G'lith for themseves, even though he's not entirely sure what it's for. Didn’t seem like the selfless choice to me.

What do we make of the "changes" Brody-ssary mentions? How does this jibe with the ‘golden age" Courtney said we were on the verge of? Anyone?

OK, I’m done. Thanks for playing.

If Mommy was right and the enemy is evil within, then maybe a golden age to them would be the slavery, destruction, or plunder of another people. We don't know what revolutionary and innovative ideas Max had, but what if they included something that would have kept the Skins from over-running another race or planet? I think Michael will be surprized when he finds out it wasn't so golden after all, and he will not go for it in this lifetime either. They may tease us with Michael turning against Max for a while, but I think he will return to Max's side when he realizes Max was right all along.

I am surprised that Michael was still so angry with Max after the killing-Brody episode. Max kept them from murdering an innocent person. After Michael's feeling about killing Pierce, you would think he would be frightened of what he almost had done, and would be grateful to Max for preventing it.

WHERE IS TIC-TAC?
Sleeping with the red herrings.

Dreamdancer, I think you're right on about Ava's being the missing (damaged, leaking) pod. I'd like to add on to your theory with one of my own: the leaky stuff was alien essence soup; hence she's more "human." I mean "human" in the Roswellian concept of good, kind, loving humans--not genocidal, greedy, selfish humans.

Good point, Destiny22: What empiracle evidence did Ava have to know that Liz would be changed?

BehrAll, I agree totally that either Kyle is changed (as his Dad talked about in the truck in Wipe Out) or he wasn't really "brought back," just healed.

Leneba: "Yeah, and I don't think there's a "changed" pidgeon flying around either."

Buddhist connections: Tess was sitting in a lotus position. Nasedo had that Buddha. Reincarnation: we've already noticed the similarity to our Run Lola Run scenario.

When Max found Tess all of Lonnie & Rath's stuff had disappeared with them. I think she put them in a time wrinkle.

Tess seemed strange after Max found her. Did anybody think it may not be her but... Vilandra? Isabel's dupe seemed to be a major B**ch, who would stop at nothing to get what she wants. She could have shapeshifted into Tess in order to get a hold of the Granolith.

GREAT idea. Remember what Tess said to Max in the end, something like this."I just want to go home, home to Roswell. Going home was Lonnie's main objective from the begining.

Cool!!!!!!!!!

"After Zan was assassinated, Kathana attacked K'var, K'var then attacked Sero, who attacked Hanar. Now we just have to find out why. Treaties, pre-emptive strikes out of fear? Strange or complicated politics to attack and then turn around and attack someone else not yet involved in the war. Hanar was upset and probably over-simplifying or omitting information, so we really can't analyze yet the war going on."

You know, I got a different impression from what Hanar was saying (weren't those abductees *perfect* ? LOL--I shouldn't laugh, though, I could be next!). I immediately thought of "Piece of the Action" on Trek TOS, and ol' Bela Oxmyx explaining to Kirk why he's willing to cut in the Federation:

"I get tired of all these hits. I hit Krako--Krako hits Teppo--Teppo hits me. There's too many bosses."

In other words, I took it to mean virtual anarchy, like gang warfare. Blood in the streets, as Rath put it. They need a strong leader. They need Zan Redux.

The emissary was deeply cool. I even wondered if they'd get Avery Brooks for the part. They did get a splendidly smooth-domed gentleman for it, though. Did you catch the words to that odd little tune that was playing during that scene? "That there--that's not me--I'm not here--This isn't happening--I'm not here--I'm not here--"

Also, they were playing wood-flute music when Ava told Liz that she had been changed, and again when Liz contacted Max. Our beloved Indians may yet have a part to play. I've been thinking Liz has some of that blood in her.

Shapeshifter, I too noticed that Tess was in the lotus position (or at least a reasonable facsimile thereof!) I wonder if she pulled herself together after fighting off Lonnie and Rath as well as she pulled that Buddha statue together in Harding's house. I think maybe the Buddhist branch of the royal family is forming here--Kyle's the man for Tess. Does having been healed by an alien make you somehow eligible for mating with one? I do think, though, that while Kyle was "changed" by the experience, he may not have been ***changed***--he wasn't dead yet when Max healed him. Anyway, if you've got this alien you like but don't see how it could possibly work out, catch a stray bullet and see what happens next--?

Thanks for all the great reading.

Liz

Let's hear it for the altered Liz theory! And yes--I wondered that about Kyle/Buddhism too. I mean...talk about really odd character development. I wasn't sure if we were looking at a LA religious fad or something worthy of comment in our plot!

Welcome back LSS!

Very quickly I just wanted to point out that Ron Moore wrote both the episode which introduced us to Kyle's newfound love of Buddhism, and the episode where we learned that Max's healing of Liz has "changed" her. I think he must have some sort of plan to deal with this.

--KATE

Going along with this thinking, others have suggested that an earlier visit by Zan could have been the opportunity for him to have come into contact with Liz's family (ahem, Grandma Claudia, in particular)? I think this weekend I'll go back through the Sci-Fi threads to see what you all have said about the possibility of transferring memories, responsibilities, soul mate connections, whatever, from one generation to the next.

I've got to say that I truly admire the intelligence of this thread and look forward to reading all of your posts!

Signing off, (yawn)

Ree99

Will no one stop for a minute, and realize that the only one really criticizing Max's leadership IS MICHAEL? (Assisted ably by Lonnie, disguised as Iz?) Oh, and Nicholas.

Great group of critics. Let's take a look at the decisions he's made.
1) He faced down Pierce, didn't crack; he had the idea to replace Pierce w. Nasedo, which ultimately resulted in the end of their nemesis, the Special Unit.
2) He handled the Bones Problem ingeniously, spur of the moment, since Nasedo had been going to handle it, but didn't show: not only removing the Cadmium-X, but he had the brilliance to age the bones, so Whittaker looked like a fool! Again.
3) He faced his own "siblings" and made them STOP before they killed an innocent man on the grounds of general paranoia and suspicion - - Brody, who's turning out to be alien-friendly, and a possible new ally.
4) Despite his searing trauma from the night before, he knew that the only course of action in Harvest was to face Liz and seek her help - - and he did so despite the personal pain. Moreover, there was no way to get answers in that ep without walking into hell and out the other side, which he did without hesitation.
5) He carried himself well in the Summit even though he had absolutely nothing to go on ...

I'd say, for a 17 year old kid, his track record's pretty good. (Hey, maybe we should vote for HIM for president!)

So despite the rather mindless scripts of this season, let *us* not lose the ability to think, and simply accept things at face value without considering the source. It is a flaw of this season, I think, that they set up a phony conflict between Max and Michael, but then give only Michael lines, and leave their main man speechless - - people end up believing Michael, which is never a wise choice.

Did anyone find the "offer" Nicholas made even vaguely appealing? What on earth about it was supposed to entice "The Royal Four" into wanting to walk into his trap? Did that *NOT* have trap written all over it?

1) You return to the planet (read: surrender yourself to the person who wants you dead and is threatened by your very existence)
2) You return the granilith (read: surrender the artifact which gives you your only bargaining power, and the loss of which is the only way you can menace your foe)
3) You urge your supporters to surrender themselves to your enemy (read: well, just read)

What was supposed to be appealing? Who on any planet would not have known that was a sucker deal?

And if Brody's alter-ego was supposed to be such a friend, why would he want his dear friend to come back and put his head in a noose?

So many thoughts... so foggy a brain...

About Zan/Max and the Liz connection... It occurred to me that perhaps, because both Zan and Max come from the same basic genetic soup, that if Liz is truly a soulmate (as in the missing half of Zan/Max's soul), that both would be missing that half. Did that make sense? Let me try again...
If the connection between them was made at some other time (Zan the King strolling around earth via possession of a human body meets Liz in another incarnation - ah ha! the Buddah connection - ) then he searches for her in this incarnation. He (as Max) sees her as a child and "recognizes" her. Zan, because he's in NY, not NM, does not, and so is always searching, waiting for someone else.

On to something more coherent (hopefully)... I think Max made the right choice in not making the deal because, first of all, what true leader in their right mind is going to agree to be a figure head, and allow their usurper to retain the power. The whole thing STUNK of betrayal in some form or another. We already know that Kivar is treacherous, why let him keep the power??? NO, NO, NO!!! If their is blood on the streets of the home planet, then Kivar is a terrible ruler, and he should be brought down.

I think that what may have been happening on Twilo, is that Zan/Max, the new King, was trying to introduce perhaps a more democratic way of life to his world, which perhaps had been totally autocratic or perhaps monarchial... very undemocratic... hence, the "verge of a golden age". Maybe his previous visits to Earth taught him the value of democracy and the free enterprise system. (yikes... I guess I should take this to the Politics thread )

God/Kings... lot of examples in our history (think Egypt, for one)... or maybe merely a Theocracy.

I kind of am subscribing to the Tess/Ava switched before hatching theory. They do seem to have personalities which fit the opposite tripods, don't they?

One more thing (for now)... I think there is confusion about the V shaped star-system... and it may be mine ... The V shape is made of stars. I think I've seen some people confusing it with a V shape of planets. If the star system is V-shaped, then each could contain more than one inhabited planet (well, theoretically)... and each of the represenatives actually could represent more than one inhabited planet. Perhaps Zan/Max's home planet is the center of a sort of Federation of Planets (tee hee... ST)... and it could be even that the Crest is merely representative of that idea, and it not an actual V shape. (did they say it was? I don't remember)...

Enough rambling for now. I liked this eppy. But then, I love political intrigue!

So many thoughts... so foggy a brain...

...If the connection between [Liz and Max] was made at some other time (Zan the King strolling around earth via possession of a human body meets Liz in another incarnation - ah ha! the Buddah connection - ) then he searches for her in this incarnation. He (as Max) sees her as a child and "recognizes" her. Zan, because he's in NY, not NM, does not, and so is always searching, waiting for someone else

... I think there is confusion about the V shaped star-system... and it may be mine ... The V shape is made of stars. I think I've seen some people confusing it with a V shape of planets...Lorrilei1960, If I give you more Nyquil will you be able to tell me why Zan's abductee selected Liz?

And thanks for posting about the 5 stars being the suns of the solar systems that contain each of the five planets. Oh, and I just realized: whenever Liz kissed Max and saw the 5 stars, she was seeing his imprint. Hmmm...somehow this loses its charm--rather like seeing dust floating by when you look at the sun with your eyes closed. Oh well, it's Max, the Sun King.

when ava learned that liz was brought back by max, almost like an awe and dread was flashing across ava's face. plus the statement that zan was trying to be perfect, etc. and waiting for someone... could be waiting for liz? that liz has a connection somehow to the king. there's something that ava knows that she isn't letting up. it just seems that the dupes definitely know a lot more than the royal four. could it be that they had a protector but was killed off by one of them? it doesn't seem like it would be a stretch for lonnie or rath to kill anyone, esp. their own. they both have a ruthless nature without any regard to humanity as nacedo had displayed when we first learn about him.

how did the dupes actually learn about the podsters, anyhow? how did they know that they were in roswell. as niko had mentioned that the podsters were kept in roswell as the granolith while the dupes were dumped on the east coast. definitely would seem that the dupes were a decoy. it could explain why they know so much about what happened on their home planet and our podsters don't. if they were to serve as a decoy, the possible only way to protect themselves is to have the knowledge of what had happened.

the seal engraved into max's brain.. wow. definitely would explain about the V constellation that we constantly see. and the last star to glow was at the point of the V... same shape as the granolith. and, assuming that the point of the v is max's planet, could it be that the granolith was on his planet and therefore held the most power? it was entrusted to the podsters. all this mumbo jumbo about kivar wanting peace. allowing the royal four to return and max is king in name only but kivar will still rule? ok... what is he smoking? who would go for that deal anyhow? it's just too birdbrain. what planet does kivar rule on anyway? there's 5 stars and there were representative for the four planet and max makes five. so where does kivar fit in? the only reasoning that i can come up with is that kivar is an illegitiamte child that max's father may have sired outside of his marriage. kivar could have been born before zan and vilandra. upon the death of zan's dad, the eldest son was to rule and kivar not being legitimate, it was passed onto zan. it's the only thing i could think of that would be the driving force behind kivar intending to keep ruling the planet. or it could be just the skins wanting a new race to rule the planet and cause a rebellion, killing the royal four. .... i mean, why else would someone want the throne unless they were spurned and felt that they deserve the throne.

with the granolith and liz's reference that it's a source of powerful energy, we saw that it was not meant for time travel but was capable of it... kivar would want the granolith in that it could be used as an extreme power source that would ensure his reign as ruler. or he could possibly use the granolith as a time travel machine to go back into time and erase the royal four from existence.

oh... i really like ava. she shows more humanistic feelings than tess. just seems like ava was a podster and tess a dupe. i don't know. maybe ava was the leaking sac and the evilness was leakin out of the sac. almost like a defective dupe? defective in the sense that the manipulation and nastiness isn't in her. (perhaps?) i'm still a little suspicious about max finding tess. all in that lotus position... almost meditating. if lonnie and rath were attempting to get into her head, i don't think that she would be discovered in that position. maybe lying weak on the floor or something, just not like that. something is up. it seems convienient that she doesn't know how she fended them off. maybe i'm being too cynical and tess is learning to tap into her powers or what not, but it's just doesn't fit.

just my rambling 2 cents

This is too much for my puny mind.

1) Even though I do not like the "Liz" has changed storyline, even I can see that if Liz has changed, then Kyle as changed too. Here is my short list of reasons why.
Ava thought the Liz "coming back" was extremely important, and she looked almost terrified for Liz as Liz told her what happened on Sept 17th, 1999. Changed could mean something different than just the development of powers. Powers could be the plus side, but I bet there will be a bad side too. In order to become changed like Liz, you must be at deaths door. So there is no super pigeon flying around Roswell either.
Liz did not see flashes during the healing. The dialog does suggest that this is what Liz means, but it is not said.
quote:
LIZ: Yeah. Kyle...when he healed you, um...did...did you see things?

KYLE: See things?

LIZ: Flashes. Images.

KYLE: No. But since he healed me, I keep getting these flashes of Max Evans naked.

(Liz laughs)


Kyle did not ask Liz if she saw "things". Liz knows and so do we that she has had visions from Max, but not during her healing. --This took me forever to understand because I was reading way too much into it.

The writers are treating Kyle and Liz the same. So if Liz is changed, then Kyle is changed.

2) The Emissary and the Temps:
How did the Emissary trigger the Royal Seal on Max's brain? The Em is a Temp, a puppet, a vessel. The "real" emissary is a back on home. My opinion has been is that Harding was wrong about powers being human. Well, the Em is making me rethink this. Does possession somehow allow the "alien" to use powers which are dormant otherwise in the human. If yes, this fits nicely with altered Liz. But it leaves unanswered why the Podsters, Skins, and Shapeshifters all have similiar powers when only one of them has a human body.

Brody made all his money in computers/internet companies. He's the classic egghead millionaire. Assuming he has a superior intelligence, perhaps his mind is more developed which makes him a target for possession. (Note that it would make Liz a target to--BCM) There has to be more of an issue here than just a vessel. Kyle said he was merely one too.

3) The Summit:
The object for the summit, led by K'var was not to end the war. It was to reaffirm K'var's stronghold over Max's former throne. No matter if Max stayed, or left, Max losses in the eyes of his contempories. By saying NO, Max creates enemies for himself, (and since most of the skins are dead, the Roswell plot is secure.) More importantly, K'var's offer, as underhanded as it is, makes K'var look good no matter what happens. This summit was nothing more than a political brainwash session.

Mindless ramblings

Still thinking about the NY protector. A lot of unknowns, but I believe that they (SSers) were working together. And the yearbook Lonnie had is recent, so if the SSer is either hiding (TicTac's evil twin) or the NY SSer is recently deceased. The yearbook and the fact that the Dupes have it implys so much.

Regarding Tess, I'd figured her "dupe's" disaffection was a way to open the door to ditching Tess and replacing her with a dupe that would be amenable to a Max and Liz romance rekindled. It still might be, or it might just be my wishful thinking.

Qfanny: I sympathize with your disappointment over Liz being changed. All I can offer is this. It didn't say *in what manner* she was changed. If I recall right Nacedo said that the podsters abilities were simply latent human traits applified and advanced. Perhaps all that Max's intervention has done is stir those latent abilities to life in Liz to some degree. No green corpuscles required.

Now to my real bugaboo. The summit disturbed me. As I remarked in the general discussion thread, it reminded me more of a board meeting of Murder Incorporated than a diplomatic summit. And why hold it on Earth? Neutral ground? The whole thing was disturbing on several levels.

1) Max's alien counterpart was killed for pushing reforms too far too fast. Or that is what is implied. It reminds me of Europe in the Middle Ages. A ruler had to be careful. Any such reforms were sure to tick off the lesser nobility and landed gentry by undercutting their personal power and wealth. No wonder he was vulnerable to ouster.

2) It has been implied that Max "decided the fate of whole armies with the flip of a coin". This doesn't sound like a reform minded ruler at all. More like Alexander of Macedon on Crank. How much truth is there to that statement?

3) The fact that the war is still stumbling along after 50 years suggests parity between the rulers of the 5 planets. Technology, resources, manpower, arms...the works. Otherwise they would have fought it out long ago.

4) The fact that the granolith is so valuable and unique tells me that they can't make another. For what ever reason, one is all there is. I look forward to seeing the apparent anamoly explained.

5) That crew of negotiators reminded me of a pack of hyenas bickering over a carcass. The carcass of Max's kingdom. I would be willing to bet that all 5 worlds were originally his domain. After the revolution the rebels fell out over the spoils. Or perhaps the rebels bit off more than they could chew, and the nobles local to each world saw a chance to set up their own petty fiefdoms. Whatever the reason, my estimation of the morals of Max's race have bottomed out.

5) If Earth is neutral territory (Useful for summits.) then what prompted the aliens to invade in the future. They'd either have to act in concert, or K'var had eliminated his rivals.

That's all I have time for now....

Also, remember how he left Kyle in the dust as they raced in Blind Date!!

HLA

I believe Lonnie and Rath took Tess to Nicholas who in turned stole the memory of where the Granolith is hidden.

Once they were done he put a false memory of her fighting them off and told her to sit quietly and wait for Max. They left long before Max got there and they are probably driving to Roswell to steal the granilith or going to copper town to gather his forces.

I think Ava left Roswell because she knew that Lonnie would not give up so easily and she did not want to stick around for what is to come.

This could explain why she always looks so darn nervous every time someone even mentions the granolith!

I only saw 3 pods too and wondered where the 4th was. Could it have something to do with the fact that the NM podsters emerged 3 together and then Tess? What if Tess and Eva came from somewhere else?

is NOT an :: well now what?! Wish Eva had explained a little bit more before she took off!

Keep those ideas coming all! i enjoy reading them!

Bye!::

1. THE ROYAL V SEAL - Maybe the five points on the V do not represent the five planets but the the Royal four plus one - Liz. Ava felt that Zan didn't love her because he seemed to be waiting for someone else to enter his life. That seems to coincidental. Max the orginal was placed in Roswell because those who placed them knew about Liz? Last year it was speculated that Liz was shot on purpose. Maybe that was correct and all this was planned. For those two to connect.

3. How was Tess able to fight off Lonnie and Rath and I suspect Nicholas? I don't think Lonnie or Rath can shapeshift. They didn't change their bodies just their clothes when they impersonated Is and Michael, I think it's still the real Tess. So was Tess and Ava switched? Tess seems more like Lonnie and Rath and Ava more like our pod squad in terms of being more human (ie caring) Ava, being the real royal, in her heart knew about Liz (see theory I posted earlier about V seal) while Tess believes Max will return her feelings. Tess is gaining Max's trust only to betray him.

Some questions and observations about the summit

We know from Hanar that the war's been going on for 50 years, and from what Larek and Nicholas have said, they (and Kavar) were around when the original Zan was king. So, Larek, Nicholas and Kavar must at least be in their seventies, assuming they were in their twenties when Zan came into power. That's probably irrelevant, but who knows down the line. Since the five planets time and earth time appear to be synchronous (unless they lied to Max), then we have our first evidence that in the Roswell Canon there is some mechanism for virtually instantaneous space travel. We already know there's one for time-travel.

Nicholas referred to Tess as Max's "genocidal girlfriend." Was this just in reference to her wiping out the skins on earth or does it have historical overtones. Did original Ava had genocidal tendencies towards the skins?

It was a good thing Nicholas showed up, no one else seemed to bring anything to the table. Larek says they're meeting in a 'spirit of reconciliation,' Hanar whines about the '50 years of misery and suffering' among their worlds and catalogues the round robin attacks, and Sero just chimes in that they have to find a solution.

Then Nicholas offers the only solution. That seems a bit convenient doesn't it? Could the whole summit just be an elaborate scam on Nicholas/Kavar's part to get the granolith?

What does Kavar's offer tell us about Max and his position back home?
1. Max becomes king in name only.
2. Max tells his followers to support the current government.
3. Max returns the granolith.

Assuming that the minds of the leaders of the different worlds are actually present, and they're not Kavar's co-conpsirators, then they all apparently agree that their interplanetary wars will end with the return of Max and the granolith. We know that Kavar is convinced that if he has the granolith he can continue his rule unimpeded. So the four other leaders must want Max himself back. Even a politically powerless Max. Why? Do Max and the granolith represent some unifying symbol that transcends fifty years of war? Do they all need Max back to get his people to support the current power structures (his supporters are present on all five planets), or does that only apply to Kavar? Can only Max use the granolith, and Kavar doesn't know it? Is the granolith equally important to all five worlds (that seemed to be indicated) or is it more important on Max/Kavar's planet. Is it important that the royal four were never mentioned at the summit? Larek says very little during the summit, then tells Max he was a good friend of original Zan. Another manipulation, or the truth? Why does Larek see the events of the summit as history repeating itself? Did original Zan also want to keep sole control of the granolith, not sharing its power with the other worlds? Katana also says very little at the summit. Can we infer from her line "You made a lot of enemies here today" that she and her world had previously been Zan's supporters?

So many questions, but at least we are starting to get some answers. I've really enjoyed reading everyones posts.

SF

Well, it is interesting to see Nicholas kinda confirming what we’ve been discussing here. He apparently believes the NY podsters to be the rejects as well. And he made some of the points made here. I can see it. Lonnie’s comments about being the originals makes me feel that they are indeed the rejects. Why would you do something twice if you got it right the first time? Which brings me to…

This leads me to wonder if my thoughts on the NY4 being decoys of sorts. What if someone realized they were sending a “new leader” to Earth? Wouldn’t it be best to send a decoy… one that was expendable even. If the NY4 had gotten killed, then their enemies would simply think them dead. No other threat. Could this have possibly been the original idea?

I also have to wonder… if Liz has been changed, what about Kyle? Does this mean that if Kyle and Max make out that Lyle’s gonna be all shiny with hickeys too? (That was for the panty brigade..) Is this change what really made Kyle turn to Buddha? I mean sure, the whole “Amiens do exist” thing had to throw him, but this need to find answers etc, is that actually based on the fact that Kyle is now “changed”?

And speaking of this change… I’m gonna have to go with bluecornmoon here. I really like the “synapse” explaination.

Alien Sex. Uh, if they haven’t had sex with humans, then how do they know it’s any better? Sorry, that just made me wonder. I mean sure, you’ve got glowing hickeys and the like, but really… other than that… is it honestly any better?

3 pods. Interesting.

Anyone else get the feeling that they never had a protector? Tess is asking questions and they are blowing her off, or trying. Dunno… it was nothing that was said directly perhaps, just a feeling. I don’t think they had someone like that.

Which of course makes me wonder how they got all their information. Why do they know so much about who they are and where they come from if they are just decoys? If they are the originals, which still means to me that they are the rejects, why do they have all the information?

If they really planned to have Max be at this summit as their King, then wouldn’t an informed king be your best option?

Anyone else think (And this isn’t exactly sci fi I guess…) that Kavar’s compromise wasn’t much of one? I mean if Rath was right and everyone hates him, then it seems to me that the people wouldn’t be very happy if Max was just a figurehead and Kavar had the real power still. I mean even if they hadn’t planned on killing him, that doesn’t seem like a very good idea still. Or is it just me?

I can’t say I think the granolith is just a religious object. I think Lonnie was trying to Dupe (*snerk*) Max into believing it was nothing important. Perhaps she believed that she could trick him into handing it over without a second thought. Have to agree with those who think it is much bigger. We know it can be used for time travel, tho we still dont’ know the original function of it. Seems to me it’s a little too powerful to be just some religious icon.

Ok, this isn’t sci fi related, but was anyone else really happy to see actual friendship happening between Max & Tess? I actually felt, for once, that he was concerned about TESS as TESS. Not Tess as one of the four, or Tess as an alien, but Tess as Tess. As a person.

Still wanting to know what Tess did. How did she keep Rath and Lonnie out? And was it Lonnie and Rath that did the mind rape, or did Nicholas help? Was that ever cleared for sure?

Ok, everyone keeps referring to the line about “his B*tch left him.” I’ll have to rewatch this scene again cause I was under the impression they were talking about Max… *shrug*

Ava… I really wanted her to stick around. I think she had information they could have used and I think that poor Ava needs someone. Her reaction to Liz at the end made me feel that she’s never really had any affection, probably not even from Zan if he never really loved her…

Kender… this is actually a good question. Cause if his body is sitting in a morgue somewhere, then someone is gonna wonder why is blood looks like plant cells.

Plumeria… I wondered if Zan had it as well.

The V system… ok, discussing this with a coworker who is a star buff. He says no. Because there is little variation on the planet-star set up that would allow for this. The planets have to orbit something. Gravity is all around. We have no indication of even a SUN for them. So even if we are to assume that they have a sun in the center of the V pattern, it would then require that all planets rotate *exactly* the same in order to retain the V shape. Which doesn’t happen. The only other planet-star variation that happens (apparently this is a very predicatble, stable thing) is when you have a dual star/dual sun systems. Which we don’t appear to have here. I’m gonna have to say this is pretty interesting BS.

Wisters… oooohhhh… good point about River Dog!

BehrAll… uh, I got the distinct feeling that Kyle was going downhill MUCH faster than Liz actually. I believe it was a chest wound, not a stomach wound… someone else want to comment (Or possibly has since I haven’t read everything..)

Oh for the love of Vhaerun, her name is TESS not T***. Cripes that drives me nuts.

Michelle… LOL on not listening to Michael. Still think he needs a good swift kick in the *ss.

Qfanny.. THANK YOU! LOL I tried to make that point last week but no one seems to listen to me. Liz only saw flashes (judging by what was said in previous eps) only when Max made the effort to reverse the connection.

Very interesting theory on Brody BTW. I could see it.

HOW did Nicholas reappear in his same body, especially given that he said Tess had performed genocide? I thought that the Skins could not survive the Earth's atmosphere? And didn't we see his replacement skin destroyed in The Harvest?

Other comments:

Like bluecornmoon and ROStaFEHRian, I also wondered if Tess was really Lonnie at the end.

I was glad that Larek told us that Max was a moral leader on his home planet.

Seeing the seal seemed to give Max new confidence.

HOW did Nicholas reappear in his same body, especially given that he said Tess had performed genocide? I thought that the Skins could not survive the Earth's atmosphere? And didn't we see his replacement skin destroyed in The Harvest?

Other comments:

Like bluecornmoon and ROStaFEHRian, I also wondered if Tess was really Lonnie at the end.

I was glad that Larek told us that Max was a moral leader on his home planet.

Seeing the seal seemed to give Max new confidence.

I've posted this theory elsewhere without a response...Could the Nicholas body we saw this past Monday be a human one controlled by the real alien being just as the others were controlled humans? At the end of Harvest, when Max and Tess (?) were walking down the street, we see the back of a boy passing them on a skateboard or scooter and the two of them seem to do a "double-take". Could that have been a human that the Nicholas husk was patterned after? The length of time it supposedly takes to incubate a husk would seem to go against this...but why haven't the writers presented us with a reasonable excuse for Nicholas showing up again??

This seems to be too great a hole in the storyline for it to have occured without an explanation (even from them ). Did anyone else notice that scene at the end of Harvest? Perhaps they'll reveal the answer to us in the next episode...but still kind of odd. Usually when a sci-fi show shows something that escapes logic they either give the explanation up front or have the characters express the question for us (meaning that we will find out in a future ep). Isn't it strange that Max didn't express any surprise to see Nicholas again?

quote:
Ava thought the Liz "coming back" was extremely important, and she looked almost terrified for Liz as Liz told her what happened on Sept 17th, 1999. Changed could mean something different than just the development of powers. Powers could be the plus side, but I bet there will be a bad side too. In order to become changed like Liz, you must be at deaths door. So there is no super pigeon flying around Roswell either.

I agree. There probably is a down side to this. I also believe that Liz'x "change" didn't make her more alien; it just brought out the human powers that are developed in others.

Here's my take on what happened to Tess
Tess keeps saying "I don't know" I think she wiped out her memory to keep Lonnie and Rath from finding out where the granolith is. She was sitting in a Lotus position (any connection to a fetal position?) like she was completely blank. She wasn't thinking anything. She could barely remember what had happened. That's why she is so spacey. I think Tess no longer remembers their alien past or the things she learned from Nasedo, and therefore will not be much help in the future. This also helps out the writers so that the podsters can't get more information from Tess or learn about memory retrieval.

I heard something in the promos for this whole trip to NY. They said that the aliens journey to NY but only one alien returns. Was that a clue that Tess isn't "Tess" anymore? If not, what were they talking about? Just a blooper?

Yes, Mikey, I thought that that was odd too. But maybe he was just trying to keep a poker face at the summit?

I like your idea that the Nicholas skin was modeled after a real human (the boy on the skateboard in Roswell)--except it still doesn't explain how the alien core of Nicholas survived the atmosphere after Tess incinerated his skin. If he managed to survive, couldn't some of the other Skins have survived as well? Or did Khivar somehow use some of the "limited resources" to keep Nicholas alive remotely?

Then again, why would Nicholas have chosen the body of someone in Roswell when it seemed like he had never been to Roswell before? And, as someone mentioned before, with "limited resources," why bring folks to New York for the summit from such far away places?

Maybe I'm just thinking about this too much ...

A couple of posts mentioned that the NY4 didn't have a protector. Didn't Lonnie specifically say that 'their protector' told them that the Granolith was some sort of religious object? I remember I got really excited about that comment because we might finally be able to say for sure that Tic Tac and Nasedo are two different shapeshifters. That would also explain how the NY4 got the yearbook since Tic Tac would be very familiar with the NM4.

And don't these guys name anything? What are the protectors' names? What are the names of the five ruling planets?

I just read from Whitaker's journal (which was written by the Roswell writing team) that there were Protectors (plural).
"there is no mention of a craft landing. We thought that their arrival on this planet would attract more attention than it has, but their protectors must have done a good job of hiding them." Vanessa Crawford July 4 1950.

I like your idea that the Nicholas skin was modeled after a real human (the boy on the skateboard in Roswell)--except it still doesn't explain how the alien core of Nicholas survived the atmosphere after Tess incinerated his skin. If he managed to survive, couldn't some of the other Skins have survived as well? Or did Khivar somehow use some of the "limited resources" to keep Nicholas alive remotely?

Then again, why would Nicholas have chosen the body of someone in Roswell when it seemed like he had never been to Roswell before? And, as someone mentioned before, with "limited resources," why bring folks to New York for the summit from such far away places?

Maybe I'm just thinking about this too much ...[/B]

Perhaps the "souls" of the husks were really projections from the home planet. Perhaps it takes up less energy to project into a husk rather than control a real human body. With a husk, they don't have to worry about people looking for the originals who would be missing for long periods of time. Still hard to write off the fact that we all saw those husk-bodies disintegrate.

Still thinking about the NY protector. A lot of unknowns, but I believe that they (SSers) were working together. And the yearbook Lonnie had is recent, so if the SSer is either hiding (TicTac's evil twin) or the NY SSer is recently deceased. The yearbook and the fact that the Dupes have it implys so much.

[/B]

You have no idea how much I HATE to disagree with you, Qfanny, but it's fairly easy to buy a yearbook in the mail. Even a human can do it. All one has to do is call the school.

I still say the NY 4 had no protector and this is why Lonnie blew off the question. They most likely learned what they know from their muddled memories of home (remember, they are "more alien") and based on what Nicholas fed them.

Still a lot of people wondering about Liz's "powers," which, I have to say, didn't seem any more exotic than an ordinary psychic connection to Max and vice versa. But I'm sure I'll turn out to be wrong as usual.

Cheers,
Juniper

We were told (I think by Nicholas) that the Roswell Four (well, Three) were reared in relative isolation and normality in Roswell precisely BECAUSE they were the real thing. The Granolith was with them and other aliens on earth knew little or nothing about their whereabouts (evidently). I think we have to assume that their mother considered them superior because they WERE more human compared to the other four (if in fact that is true) and wanted them to be reared as 'normal' humans for reasons of her own. Perhaps despite her love for her children, she was very well aware of their mistakes and limitations, and hoped these could be avoided this time around.

I think Tess just went catatonic, in effect playing turtle, until Lonnie & Rath went away. I doubt that little rat Nikolas was there, or he'd have opened Tess up like a can of Spam. Does anyone else think she's going to get a case of Cartwright's Disease?

Re Tess: If we are meant to take what she said at face value, then that scene was incredibly lazy and sloppy as exposition. I think she is lying and struck some kind of deal, whether she intends to live up to it or not. Certainly Ava knows more than she told about the connection between Max and Liz and its consequences. Tess may really be developing a crush on Max and may accept him as her king, but it doesn't mean she won't try to strike some kind of deal of her own with Rath and Lonnie.

But it's also a fact that the writers have been leaving a string of red herrings about Tess in episodes since 'Surprise!,' where we learn she unaccountably had a phone call with Grant. And we have no idea what passed between her and the Congresswoman any more than we do about her encounter with the Dupes (maybe we'll see flashbacks one day?) And as was widely noted after 'Harvest,' she had that odd scene with the Congresswoman's 'Mother' while staring at her photo. Of course like any red herring, it may be that none of this means anything at all, but is simply a try at making a dull character more interesting and mysterious.

God/Kings... lot of examples in our history (think Egypt, for one)... or maybe merely a Theocracy.

I kind of am subscribing to the Tess/Ava switched before hatching theory. They do seem to have personalities which fit the opposite tripods, don't they?

Have you been over lately? I had pretty much the same reaction. Were these real ambassadors, or just five impostors supplied by K' var to try to get Max to surrender? Real ambassadors would have sense enough to recognise a TRAP when they saw it... unless they wanted Max dead... hmmm.

But I've got to make a few comments on the latest Sci-fi for MitC...

First a post on Liz having developed human abilites

Liz definately isn't any part "alien" and as a matter of fact the Royal Fours' powers aren't "alien" powers, but well developed "human" abilities. I'm not sure if this just applies to the powers of the Royal Four, or their original race (which is obviously different since they now have human DNA), or with any of the other races. When Nasedo was talking to Michael in The White Room episode, he stated:

NASEDO: Humans are weak – which doesn’t bother me – and wasteful. Their brains are incredible machines they haven’t even begun to use. When you were engineered, you were given the capacity to do everything the human brain is capable of.

MICHAEL: You mean beside our powers?

NASEDO: Those are your powers, Michael. Everything you can do is human. You were just programmed to be several thousand years ahead of mankind, that’s all. But from what I saw earlier, you’ve barely tapped into what you’re capable of. You can do it, Michael. The only thing stopping you is yourself. (Michael tries to transfer the dead body’s fingerprint onto his own finger.) Try again.

This tells me that none of their powers are alien, but well developed abilities that humans have. I think when Max healed Liz it possibly remapped some of the neurons in the cerebral cortex so that she has the ability to tap into those abilities now (when it would have taken thousands of years for humans to develop them). So Max basically just "progressed" her natural development along (which would account for a "change" in her). Pierce also states in the White Room more info about the powers:

PIERCE: Don’t even try. Don’t even try to use your abilities, Max. The serum we injected you with – very effective in suppressing the neurotransmitters in your cerebral cortex. Experiments on the alien in the forties taught us that that’s where most of your powers come from.

So, Liz's brain was remapped. Depending on how much needed to be remapped will determine the extent of her abilites. Whether or not Kyle has the abilities is up to the writers. Technically it's possible, and they can reasonably determine that they each receive differing amounts of abilities depending on how much remapping had to occur during the healing (not necessarily how close to death they were). Another stream of thought though is according to the quote, "most" of the abilities came from the cerebral cortex, we don't know where the other abilities came from. Maybe the "other" area is what was progressed or remapped and so the abilities will be very limited since it didn't include remapping the cerebral cortex. Now the question is why would he have to remap the cerebral cortex for healing shootings in the chests (Liz and Kyle)? Maybe he didn't, so that would lean toward the second thought that the "other" minimal ability area was progressed. But maybe the blood flow to the cerebral cortex was minimal due to the loss of blood from the wounds and he had to remap it so that it would be able to reheal and receive blood as needed to "bring them back". That would support the first thought that they could have as many powers as the writing team deems necessary and appropriate.

I believe that their abilties will come more from emotional upheavals where "it's needed" then from developing them on their own. (Kinda like the only way Michael had them in the beginning). Unless the show lasts for like 10 years, then maybe the writers will add more abilities to add a change to the show.

BUT then again, maybe Max remapped Liz's brain on purpose so that she would be more like him, so they could be together. Maybe he could only do that while healing her? And maybe he didn't do that to Kyle. I seriously don't think that is correct, because then how would Eva know that Liz had "changed" just because she was healed. Eva would have needed more info to know that Liz had changed.

Those are my thoughts on the additional abilities. Any thoughts from others on this?

Lark

I think that they have shown in the sci-fi of the show that it might be possible....

Once again in the White Room:

NASEDO: I can shape-shift into any of these agents: take their form, even their fingerprints. That’s why they added the X-ray scanner. My bone structure is far from human. I can change my appearance, but not what’s on the inside. Your bone structure, on the other hand, is one hundred percent human.

MICHAEL: So you’re different from me?

NASEDO: Biology lessons later. Come on. If I’m going to get through that door, I’m going to need one of you with me, and since the only female agent at the Special Unit is now dead, it’s you and me, Michael.

MICHAEL: I can’t get through the scanner, either. I can’t change my fingerprints.

NASEDO: Yes you can, you just don’t know you can. I’ll teach you. I just hope for Max’s sake that you’re a quick study. I’m going to need both of you, too.

Nasedo says that the female is dead, so Michael has to do it. This can mean a few things...
1. that Michael can only change his fingerprint (move the lines around that already exist on his finger...such as changing hair, etc) and not his whole body, and Nasedo is hoping that the agents think that Michael is the new guy while not knowing what he should really look like (so he passes as the new guy).
2. that the royal four can shapeshift, but only into someone of the same sex (since they have 100% human bone structure - male and female bone structure is alittle different, but I don't know if it's enough to not allow them to shapeshift into someone of another sex). At first maybe Nasedo is hoping that Michael will be able to pick it up quick and shapeshift into the whole guy, but then realizes he can't and just settles on the finger.
3. that the royal four can shapeshift completely, but since he knows that none of them have developed the ability fully that none will be able to pull it off that quick, so he figured to take Michael since he is a guy and could pass if needed as a new agent.

I don't think that they have ever stated that the Royal Four can't shapeshift, but let me know if I'm wrong.

Let me know what you guys think on this? Correct me with other quotes, if other shows show something different.

Lark

1) In the Pilot, Max said he had seen images in Liz's mind (the cupcake dress, etc.); but we don't know for sure that she didn't share these images with him at the time. Her question to Kyle in bed (When he healed you, did you see things?) would seem to indicate that she *did* see the images with him. Kyle saw no images, as he said.

2) Max had loved her since his first day at school in third grade. He said in one ep, "When things get ... heightened, sometimes we see things, feel things." A first day at school is very heightened; he was scared and lonely, he saw her and was drawn to her, loved her every since. Formed an emotional bond, albeit from his side only, but by the time of the actual healing, there was a lot of energy bridging from him to her. With Kyle, there was only fairly recent antipathy.

3) Liz already liked Max, was drawn to him, maybe already feeling the pull of his emotion toward her; she revealed to Maria in the pilot that she found him attractive, mysterious, exciting, or desirable, and thought that he would never want someone like her. ("Max? Max Evans? No way. He would want THIS?" indicating her face.) You may think this a leap of faith, but how much did it take to win her confidence? In the reverse connection, she sees how he sees her, and bingo! All it took was a bit of reassurance.

4) Furthermore, Max risked a lot when he healed Liz - it was very public, he was risking all 3 lives by risking exposure, bec. Liz was very important to him. With Kyle, they were in private, with only friends nearby; Max had no emotional involvement, had no strong fear, etc. to "heighten" the moment. He was also weakened by the WR.

5) Max told Liz, "Look at me. You have to look at me." Suggesting many things, but possibly that he wanted her spirit to focus on him to anchor it here; it suggests more of a spiritual and/ or emotional aspect than with K's healing.

6) Liz was the first time he had healed a human, we must guess. Maybe he even bonded too much with her (esp. bec. of the emotional bond already), and later learned to control it more, so that he can just heal the body and leave the rest of the person alone. This has been the way with all of their other powers - the podsters start out overdoing it, and later learn to focus and control.

A major thrust of the first season, which I hope does not get thrown out with the bathwater, is that one must trust one's instinct, listen to inner knowing - "I don't know how I knew, I just knew." Or as G'ma Claudia would say, "Follow your heart." Max's connection to Liz has been fundamentally different from the start, has continued to be different all along. "Liz is different," Max tells Michael in the pilot. I think he's right.

The Royal seal
Well I guess that it was totally cool when Max passed the test by having the royal sealburned in his head. That is the proof that those defects don't have anything to do with the real royal four.

Max and liz
OK! I was like screaming at my T.V when Max asked her that question again. I was like, "JUST FRICKIN' TELL HIM!!" If I were her, I would have just shaked my head no and left so he wouldn't have a chance to say anything. I still think that he loves her, but he's just hurt totally by what 'didn't' happen.
The Emasarries: Poor Brody!
The poor guy!! I like him so much! Why do they have to use him as the puppet! I feel so bad for him you know! He's just this human that doesn't know what's going on, and so he thinks he's getting abducted!! I don't know, I just think it's wrong to do that to someone. It's screws them up mentally.

Royal four vs. the defects
I believe that the NY4 are the defects. I mean, I like Ava for telling what happened to Zan. I knew she would. And I wish that she would've stayed in Roswell long enough to tell Liz how she was changed you know? But the NY4 think that Max, Isabel, Michael, and Tess are the defects, but who was protected? Who got the PROTECTOR? And who got the orbs with the message from home? It certainly wasn't Rath, Lonnie, Zan, and Ava!

the changing of Liz
This is a VERY important subject!! I mean the point that she could transport herself to New York to save Max is totally cool. But what gets me is that Ava didn't tell the whole thing to Liz. I mean, she could have told her more on how she was changed.
The Summit
You know, I totally support Max's decision. Though the others are right that there are millions of people's lives are at stake, I still would have turned it down the way he did. I think that if a "master-mind" at conquery like Khivar is, he would have trapped Max...like he tryed to do. I still don't beleive that crock of **** that Lonnie was telling Max, when she in on all of Khivar's plans. I really don't like her. She's rotten to the New York core if you ask me.
Maria and Brody
Na Na Na Na Na Na....Michael's jealous! I KNOW he still loves her! I always knew it. I think that Maria and Brody make an awesome couple...(Ducks and Covers) Sorry candies. But even though I am a tid bit of a candy girl, I still love those two together. From the Galexy sub hold the mayo, extra pepperjack, to the way he primps himself before she comes to deliver it to him... That is so cute!
Liz telling Maria
Gosh!! I think that this was my favorite part!!
I'm so gald that Liz told her! She probably wanted to tell someone,(especially Max) what really happened!

Well, g2g!!
~Peace, love and the podsquad forever~

But if powers are human, how do you explain why the shapeshifters (that is not a mammal) and the skins have power, (there skins are paracedic- like trees). There is NO HUMAN DNA in them, yet their powers are remarkiable similiar.

Great to see you again.

I am feeling a little bit sarcastic this tonight/afternoon. But EL, do you really think that the writers have taken any time at all to explain anything ever!!!! I am still wanting to know what that third power is from pilot. Liz interrupted him before he was done speaking.

quote:
Liz: What powers do you have?
Max: We can connect with people, as you know. We can manipulate molecular structures, and we....
Liz: Wait, what does that mean.

Max never got to finish his statement!!! But this is such a small point. I wish someone would answer that tictac issue. It's been almost a year now to learn that Liz is NOT an alien, instead she's FrankenLiz. What about TicTac? A lot of people would like to know once and for all about him.

I've noticed that Max seems to be more of a "spiritual" king or leader similar to the Dalai Lama than our conventional thoughts on Kings and Kingdoms. Three times recently there have been symbols or words suggesting Max's spiritual power. 1) Liz refers to "Max the Saint" in the End of the World. 2) In Meet the Dupes, Max says goodbye to Liz in front of a round light that makes him look like he's got a "halo." 3) In Max in the City, during his conversation with Tess about trust & "being a good husband" he stands in front of a blue neon light that is circular. Halo number two! Makes sense to me that Max + three should have a magical mystical granolyth to give them spiritual, moral, and superpower legitimacy as rulers.

I'm unspoiled so I don't know where the writers are going with the Liz is changed storyline...but I'm willing to bet that a race/species that can timeshift & possess bodies over hundreds of lightyears has a few pretty good prophecies to go along with the green up-side down pyramids. I'm willing to bet that the woman that the King both heals and marries is the culmination of a long line of prophecies regarding both saving and ending the world. I think that is why Ava looked so scared. The Royal Four as spiritual leaders may travel as a "pack" to keep the "fated thing" from happening.

Also, it doesn't bother me in the least that Nicholas showed up...I never thought he was killed in the first place. I think Tess just pushed the skins into another time dimension. Nicholas...with his powers was able to escape, who knows about the others...but I never thought there was enough "floating skin" left behind to mean that more than one or two actually got incinerated.

As to Tess being switched with Lonnie...I just don't think so. I think Tess has the ability to shift time and that's how she escaped. I'm beginning to like the Tess character and would be sorry to see her replaced by Ava. Ava is kind of a wimp, though a forthcoming wimp. If I'd been treated as Ava was evidently treated by Lonnie and Rath I'd have split town...Zan or no Zan.

Anyway, I'd say we've got a really interesting episode to chew over for the next two weeks while we wait for a new installment.

"I shall believe."

I've noticed that Max seems to be more of a "spiritual" king or leader similar to the Dalai Lama than our conventional thoughts on Kings and Kingdoms. Three times recently there have been symbols or words suggesting Max's spiritual power. 1) Liz refers to "Max the Saint" in the End of the World. 2) In Meet the Dupes, Max says goodbye to Liz in front of a round light that makes him look like he's got a "halo." 3) In Max in the City, during his conversation with Tess about trust & "being a good husband" he stands in front of a blue neon light that is circular. Halo number two! Makes sense to me that Max + three should have a magical mystical granolyth to give them spiritual, moral, and superpower legitimacy as rulers.

I'm unspoiled so I don't know where the writers are going with the Liz is changed storyline...but I'm willing to bet that a race/species that can timeshift & possess bodies over hundreds of lightyears has a few pretty good prophecies to go along with the green up-side down pyramids. I'm willing to bet that the woman that the King both heals and marries is the culmination of a long line of prophecies regarding both saving and ending the world. I think that is why Ava looked so scared. The Royal Four as spiritual leaders may travel as a "pack" to keep the "fated thing" from happening.

Also, it doesn't bother me in the least that Nicholas showed up...I never thought he was killed in the first place. I think Tess just pushed the skins into another time dimension. Nicholas...with his powers was able to escape, who knows about the others...but I never thought there was enough "floating skin" left behind to mean that more than one or two actually got incinerated.

As to Tess being switched with Lonnie...I just don't think so. I think Tess has the ability to shift time and that's how she escaped. I'm beginning to like the Tess character and would be sorry to see her replaced by Ava. Ava is kind of a wimp, though a forthcoming wimp. If I'd been treated as Ava was evidently treated by Lonnie and Rath I'd have split town...Zan or no Zan.

Anyway, I'd say we've got a really interesting episode to chew over for the next two weeks while we wait for a new installment.

"I shall believe."

As the protector of the granolith, she would likely have a deep connection to the religious leaders of their planet, perhaps be a significant member of the religious structure. And if Zan were the King, perhaps he was seen as a deity (sp) as many kings are. Thus Tess may have been more in love with the idea of being in love with the royal deity. It might explain her fierce unwaverying devotion to Max and her unquestioning belief in his goodness.

The more I think about it, the more I think that it would explain many of the motivating behaviors of both Max and Tess.

Hi Rachelle
Wisty

I still say the NY 4 had no protector and this is why Lonnie blew off the question. They most likely learned what they know from their muddled memories of home (remember, they are "more alien") and based on what Nicholas fed them.

Still a lot of people wondering about Liz's "powers," which, I have to say, didn't seem any more exotic than an ordinary psychic connection to Max and vice versa. But I'm sure I'll turn out to be wrong as usual.

Cheers,
Juniper

Hey, thanks for the compliment, I guess. I never considered that about calling the school. The simplest solution is probably the right one. But, would the protector or the NY4 know what school they attended unless there was inside information?

I thought that the NY3 blew off the protector question too until I watched it the second time. Lonnie seemed to admit they had someone watching them. I don't remember the exact wording. Also, who did Lonnie know the protector was a shapeshifter. I'll watch again to be sure.

I have to say though Juniper, I enjoy reading your posts, I don't quote you nearly enough.

I totally agree that there were several things in this episode which should have had MUCH more time given; maybe this ep should have been more like 3 episodes, a 4-part arc instead of 2?

If they're going to spend season 2, as writers, producers, and cast said in interviews over the summer, "exploring the alien mythology" - - CAN WE GET ON WITH IT THEN? Where is it? We just get hints and plotholes. Scifi means you learn things, you explore ideas; we won't be too, TOO picky, if at least you make them track, and make the characters reliable and moving - - which they used to be. (Ex: In Blood Bro., we believed that two Roswell teens could stake out and spy on an FBI agent, bec. the M&M interactions were so adorable - - AND SO BELIEVABLE!)

I'll try to stick to scifi, but stop me before I kill again:

1) Max camping over Thanksgiving. Yeah. They won't just send him to therapy, they'll have him committed. OK, OK, scifi...

2) I lied. The "Even Max Evans can find his way from the E. State Bldg. It's only 3 blocks." The sign said 51st street, and so did the subway. Come on, people. "It's only 2 stops" on the subway would take care of it. (ESB is on 34th street. You do the math. But I toured the permanent NYC set at Paramount this summer, and that's the only subway sign they had, I guess. So is weird math scifi, you ask?)

OK, I'll be good.
3) How did no one at the table (even his former "old friend") see that the "offer" was a sucker deal? The fact that no one seemed to realize this, including MAX, *could* indicate that the game is afoot, but that would be in the *other* Roswell, the one which used to track. If all are not who they appear to be, it might help, but again, that's way too subtle for this season's crew.

4) HOW DID THEY SPIRIT TESS OFF THROUGH THE SUBWAY SYSTEM?
(it's not the sewers, mes enfants - - that was just Ol' Nick being sarcastic.) ( And, BTW, I thoroughly agree with him about NYC, after living here so long. As Courtney said, "Way to go, Nicholas.") Max stood transfixed looking at the Liz apparition for just a few seconds, less than a minute? How could Rath lift Tess up, sprint through underground passages full of debris and jump over beams, get her far away, and interrogate her - - before Max could even get there? We've seen Max run, and people have commented on his special speed and strength, and he wasn't carrying any passengers. . .

5) HOW DID MAX FIND THEM?
It didn't look like Rath and Lonnie's penthouse suite; to a non- NYC, non- subterranean- dweller, underground tunnels might be confusing (unless podsters have navigational powers). So how DID Max find Tess so quickly?

6) HOW DO WE GET AN ENTIRE EPISODE dedicated to revealing "the scifi" of the show (I maintain it has been scifi all along), and learn NOTHING about "the scifi" of the show? We still know nothing about what's going on back in the " 'hood". We have to rely on Nicholas, Courtney, and CW's info (their "411"), which is not a good idea.

7) HOW CAN THEY DROP A BOMBSHELL LIKE "LIZ CAN DO IT" and do *nothing* to develop this? We see Liz and Ava hugging goodbye, see her laughing as Max makes little antennae behind her head, but no one ASKS any questions about this? So we can wrap things up neatly and have a cute little "Christmas Miracle" epsode?

8) WHERE ARE THEIR POWERS WHEN THEY NEED THEM? Why is it they never seem to use their powers when they need them most? Tess letting herself get carried off like that; Tess not mind-warping Rath or Lonnie to confuse them and buy her some time? Zan lying there giving Rath the evil eye, and not using his shield to fend off that truck?

I said to stop me before I kill again. . .

One more question/thought: Did Brody hop a flight to New York City or was he magically transported? The episode showed him getting out of a cab and walking the streets looking for an address. This implies that the aliens are relatively sophisticated about who they take over, how much knowledge they can access that their host already knows and if the emissary can do the blue light trick...doesn't that mean Brody has alien powers when possessed? So maybe we have the answer for why the alien beeper went off when Michael was nearby but not when Max was there. Brody was possessed by Larek for a bit when Michael broke in...but it was all Brody when Max was there. What do you think?

"I shall believe"
"The day isn't over."

What about Maria's comment in Harvest about Courtney being a Michael worshiper? And the fact she had what appeared to be an alter of Michael in her room.

I know I posted on page one that I didn't think that the Granolith was a religious symbol. This is one area of the show where I have yet to resolve in my mind. I would prefer that the canon stays away from religious themes. (Look at what they've done with science themes--- yikes!)

I have wondered if the Royal Four are considered deities by the Twilonese. I hope that they do have seperation of church and state, but often these lines are blurred because both try to address social situations and have a legal systems. Like I said, I am flippant over this question, and I would like to see more information before I make up my mind. If they are considered deities, Mommograms words make so much more sense.

From M2TMax:
Max: Why can [Nasedo] shapeshift, and we can't?
Tess: Because he doesn't have a human body like us Max; he needs to hide who he really is.

And Nasedo made that comment about the "female agent" of the FBI referring to Topolsky. Since she had been the only female agent, he doesn't want to use one of the female non-shapeshifters as his partner, because she'll stand out, not because her finger won't pass the scanner. (Remember Michael shook hands w. an agent by the water fountain, and this one believed Michael to be "the new agent"? He would have been suspicious if the "agent" had been a female.)

Remember when Tess asked if it could hear them? Maybe there is a consciousness/power within it or that speaks through it that is the basis of the aliens' religion.

Maybe it was the granolith that directed the Royal Four be sent to Earth and to Roswell. For what purpose remains to be seen.

And obviously a ruler who could control or use the granolith/grail would be a holy king indeed.

Obviously the Granolith is of great importance, so why the heck don't the podsters ask what it DOES! I would be dying of curiousity of I was one of them!

I have decided that those highly evolved emissaries are absolute morons if they couldn't smell a trap in K'var's offer. That led me to wondering if they actually care about the Royal Four or would be willing to sacrifice them for peace.

I have already said this somewhere else, but when FMax was talking about who destroyed the world in EOTW, he said "our enemies" Aside from being vague, it is also plural. Not just the skins. Do you think that the other planets will turn against the podsters? Seems highly plausible to me.

Love this thread, you all make me think!

Destiny

I think she did; the very fact that she asked Kyle "When he healed you, did you see things?", and the conspiratorial way she said it, would indicate that she did.

Max's emotional connection to her could have taken both of their minds back to the beginning, when they first met; see my post above.

Alien Sex: that whole interchange and interlude raises some interesting questions!

What were Zan and Ava doing while Rath and Lonnie were "making the beast with two backs"? Ava said he was aloof, that she loved Zan but that could never tell if he cared about her; that he seemed to be looking/ waiting for someone he hadn't met.

She also said that "Zan always wanted to do everything right" - not the type to just use her for sex? So it must have been fairly uncomfortable for Zan and Ava, just as it was for Max and Tess?
(Or at least for Max)

I'll take a stab at it and say I LOVE this idea that the beeper went off because of Brody and not because of Michael, because this forum has bandied about that topic for some time (why did Michael activate the beeper but not the others?). however, once again, i think we're thinking more deeply than the creators.

I also wondered why choose humans to use as emissaries that came from pretty far-flung places (was that woman wearing overalls, for chrissakes? that was so not NY), unless there was something in particular about those humans that the aliens needed. Brody 'losing time,' eg.

The temp that did the blue light trick, well, that does allow for the fact that the humans could have extraterrestrial powers when inhabited, doesn't it?

Maybe the extraterrestrial guy uses the human's latent abilities, but we don't know that for sure. A lot of evolution is supposed to have to take place first.

They seem to indicate that the far-away possessor focuses a lot of energy or mind power on that "host" - so it could just be his energy we're seeing.

Maybe the "abductions" are to prepare the host in some way, make subtle alterations in them to make them better conduits or make them easier to access and control?

Hopefully, if they *did* make alterations, they are imperceptible to human diagnostics - bec. Brody indicated to Max that he had been "cured" of terminal illness, and so he's been examined by doctors *post*-abduction. If any changes *were* detected, then his release might mean that he's being watched by - hey! - a Special Unit, to see who and what he contacts? (I'm smacking myself in the face, splashing cold water on self, etc. I'm better now...)

Destiny

I think that's perhaps just a stylized way of representing some planetary alliance, not necessarily an actual constellation.

Or, another interesting idea: in our own solar system, there are times when, from certain vantage point, planets appear to "align", though these times are often at intervals of hundreds of years: perhaps the symbol looks forward to a day when there will be some planetary alignment in the " 'hood", a stellar event believed to be of religious significance, for instance? That whoever occupies the throne at that time will be a divine ruler?

Or, it could be that our system shares some sort of vantage point (angle) with theirs, and the V-shape the podsters saw last April (Michael tells that to Iz on the Library lawn in BD - April) - which seemed to have such a great effect on them (awakening) - indicated the time when the long-lost Once and Future King would be matured and ready for action? Awakened and called to come home and save his world?

Nah, that's just them backlighting poor Jason's ears again. Something that they should probably STOP doign as the bf pointed out the other day while pretending not to watch...

Rath seemed a lot like Michael, just more criminal: when Brody was angry at their being there in the am, Rath came striding out for a confrontation, even though Max had asked them to stay hidden.

Zan was moral and wanted "to do everything right"; the amoral Rath and Lonnie perceived this as having "a stick up his ass." He also seems to have been none too willing to accept other people's demands, lies, manipulations, just as Max has maintained a healthy skepticism about the stories he's been hearing from all sides. (This unwillingness to fall in with other people's categories, BTW, is categorized by Abraham Maslow as one of the prime traits of a genius.)

Isabel seems to be loyal primarily to herself, regardless of other people's needs, like Lonnie. Learning to care about something greater is an interesting development for her, indicating she can triumph over the Volandra thing, if there's any truth to it to begin with.

Tess seems to be stuck on Max as Ava was on Zan, for not much apparent reason except a memory of the past. She also doesn't seem to have either a lot of backbone, or a strong sense of herself.

I thought on the FanForum we don't make wisecracks about actors personal traits, such as anatomical features, but stick to topics like sci-fi, plotlines, acting, etc.?

If we get into a discussion of acting, I'll definitely see a halo around "poor Jason", as his is by far the best acting on the show - as seen in his tour-de-force of roles since the end of last season: NasedoMax, Doty, FutureMax, ZanMax, and Max Evans For All Seasons. Along with millions of others, I'm in awe of his talent and integrity - and can't wait to see what he'll do next.

What about Maria's comment in Harvest about Courtney being a Michael worshiper? And the fact she had what appeared to be an alter of Michael in her room.[Quote]

Exactly! I'm not saying the podsters are actually saints...but perhaps they are treated as such by their people/believers. I think all the Elvis references are pointing this direction as well. There is almost a religious feel to how strongly some people feel about Elvis...and I think the writers are playing with this concept. I would certainly understand better an alien race that saved the podsters for religious and moral reasons rather than the usual "power-grabbing and conquest" scenarios.

Did I do this right? First time for paste and quoting...all errors are mine.

Jamethiel

"I shall believe."
"The day isn't over."

Supposedly, one of the producers said, after reading our speculations on FF over the summer, that we fans "read way too much into the episodes", and that our "clues" were "unintentional" on the part of the creators of the show.

In which case, I think they should listen up, don't you?

I've read all of the pages and I've come up with a theory on why Nicholas survived Tess' fire storm. Did anyone else notice that Nicholas was the only 'child' of the Skins? This seemed peculiar to me in Harvest. He kept making it a point that he hated being in a 14 year old body and everyone else was clearly in adult bodies. Plus, in Wipeout he never scratched himself and he didn't look like he was pealing like the others. This gave me the thought that Nicholas was in that body for a purpose. If he is Kivar's spokesman, it would make sense that his husk would be a little more resilient than the average Skin since he is more important. Now, considering that a child body is in continuous flux, regenerating itself so to speak, then being in that body could protect him.

So, my guess is the other husks were destroyed by Tess' fire storm because they were weak but Nicholas survived it because his was stronger. He probably used the fire as a distraction to escape. Now, I didn't get to see Harvest (my WB had static although I could hear the dialog), so I may be wrong about Nicholas being the only child. But I'm pretty sure he was in Wipeout.

Another thing I noticed: EVERY time his "mother" Ida referred to him, she called him "Sir." At first I thought this was just a joking way they had between them, but it was consistent throughout, and when Niko wanted to play with Iz/Volandra on the bus, he ordered Mom out and she *went*. And called him "Sir."

So he's a bigwig, tight with K'var from the 'hood, stuck in a child's body - - but CW said the skins "didn't have the DNA" to stick it out for more than 50 years.

And at the end of Harvest, Niko said, "We may be as good as dead, but it's NOT over."

WE. Which may mean his days are numbered - we can only hope.

Actually, it's a wisecrack about the seemingly incessant need to back light Jason's ears for soem reason. I'm not commenting on his ears good or bad, just the fact we haven't hadan ep yet where they didn't back light them.

Wow, now I'm not allowed to wisecrack. I'm in trouble.

You're absolutely right: I think whoever is doing lighting this year ought to be flogged. Not only do they insist on backlighting his ears, but the directors seem overly smitten with various female stars. For instance, in EOTW, there were constant full-facial shots of Shiri in soft light, while JB was almost constantly shot in profile (full or partial), lit from behind, or in *full* silhouette.

So we agree, girlfriend. Didn't recognize a fellow Defender of the True Faith. ;-)

Wow, now I'm not allowed to wisecrack. I'm in trouble.

Labryinth, I don't have a problem with the wisecracks. I do think they overdid the backlighting the ears bit in the first season. But, if you really watch the second season, they haven't been backlighting the ears. Also the camera angles are from the side, not directly in front of Max...so I don't think backlighting was the intention in regards to the "halo effect" Yes, I think as fans we can get overly obsessive about details...but on the other hand, would you deny how closely the song selection and lyrics highlight (pun intended) the intent of a story or scene? Not everything can be an accident, especially (as with the Elvis references) they are repeated more than three times!

Jamethiel...all errors in paste & quoting are mine.

"I shall believe"
"The day isn't over."

MissLParker
"the place next to the
thing that we went with
what's her name"

Okay, retrying this post. Something happened on the last one. Probably related to my still being in Crashdown huggies!

MiY: I'm glad you mentioned the CW's comment. I hadn't caught that. This helps me with something I've been thinking about: that the powers exhibited by the aliens we've met before (skins, shapeshifters, the emissary/summit attendees, and our podsters) all relate to a human element in their earthy form? We know the podsters were created with human DNA,the emissary could have tapped into the latent talents of his human to test Max, the Skins’ husks were created possibly using some form of human DNA, and the SSs might possibly achieve their powers through some human connection. (Although the SSs seem unlikely if the glowing aliens featured in S47 were actually SSs and Tess did tells Max at one point that Nacedo is “not human LIKE US.”)

I'm sorry if you all have hashed through this already. Up until a month ago - when I bought my first home computer - I had to cop a look at the boards when I was at work. It was even more difficult then to keep up with all the discussion threads.

Destiny22:
I think I am the only one here that truly thinks that "altered" Liz is a bad omen! I know that she is not really an alien. She still has the human DNA. But Liz will now feel alien to me, as if she's a different person, until I can get my paradigm adjusted properly. Really, is anyone still thinking that she is an alien?

Tess/Ava and Lonnie as Tess/Ava switcheroo.
I thought switched orbs last summer was a hard sell, but I agree that this would be way too complicated for Roswell to pull off. (I actually thought altered Liz would be too hard too. ) So now the theory is that the NM shapeshifter (Harding-Nasedo or possibly Tictac) switched the bride pods from NM to NY. Thereby negotiating the authenticy of the Royal Four. Some wonder if Tess/Ava swapped places before they left for NYC. But after the summit, Lonnie shapeshifts into Tess, (or is it Ava as Tess) so Lonnie thinks she's playing Tess, but doesn't realize that she's playing Ava really playing Ava. Is that right?

Hi sunnibehr-- too many great posts to digest. As much as I would like to jump in on Nikolas as protector of NY4, this doesn't sound right to me at all. I think that their protector was a SSer, and that their SSer had a contact with the NM3(4).

Nikolas has been to NY before-- and most already knew who Lonnie/Rath was. And that would possibly mean that Nikolas knew their protector. It was from Nikolas that we found out more background about the Dupes than the Dupes ever gave themselves.

An off the wall question, but why did Nikolas call Tess Max's girlfriend. When he mindraped Max, he saw Liz, not Tess. Does Nikolas know about Mommy's mandate then? He knows an awful lot about Destiny! Was the Skins technology able to view and monitor whatever frequency the orbs communicated on? How would he know so much about the 4?

And maybe, when Max 'brings someone back,' that someone gets powers that are now also necessary for the King's protection (sure looks that way to me). So Kyle might be crucial too. Better hitch Tess & him up pronto before he splits the scene for a comedy show (Palomino: note correct usage of "him" ).

And, how about if it's the females that get the flashes. So if Tess & Kyle ever trim wicks, she will get flashes.

SunnyBehr, thanks for reminding us about Brody being healed of cancer. So he was 'brought back.' Yikes! Maybe being 'brought back' makes one a candidate for 'possession.' Ewwww, please, not Liz.

Anyway, it would be really interesting for them (uh, Maria?) to have to tell Brody about what's up so he can play peacemaker through Lurk or whatever his name is.

I'm not building any Maria theories at present, but if someone else wants materials for one, here are some small things. (although there's nothing to do with skins, specifically)

1. We don't know much about her dad, so that's open.

2. In ID (last year), Maria's house had some suggestive background items: a wall sign said "I'm a princess -- I don't do dishes." Window decorations included something like a king's crown with three points.

3. GraceKel pointed out (in SH, I think -- Michael and Maria near the school athletic field?) a sign on a fence behind Maria said "Get Real," but much of the time we see only the "Real." Isn't that the Spanish word for Royal?

He knows more than anyone we've seen so far: the political situation at home, not that I think he's being truthful; the reason the 8 are here; the fact that 8 exist and their whereabouts (although he seems to have found out about the Roswell 4 only recently).

So he'd certainly be aware of how the NYC4 paired up (according to the roles back home). Also, the NYC contingent are not very subtle, so it wouldn't be hard to tell, though Zan seems to have paralleled Max's reluctance to be told where to mate.

With regard to the Emmisary, let's look at Brody for a second. Was he simply chosen at random? No, I don't think so. If that were the case, why go to the trouble of curing his terminal cancer? Just throw him back and get another. No, humans who can play host to (for want of a better word) an alien tele-presence must be rare. Rare enough that, when you find one, you fix him if he's broken. (Total Digression Alert:::How did they do that? Max and Liz style? If so, is he changed too?::

Let's look at it from an alien perspective. What qualifies a human to be a host?

1) Perhaps the hosts are sufficiently advanced that the "latent powers" are there and waiting to be awakened? If so, you use a little alien tech to set it up so that the powers don't emerge unless the alien is in residence? Further, you might "trick them out" a bit. Implants and such. If your work makes them healthy beyond imagination, then they'd seldom need a doctor. Less chance that any implants would be detected. For all we know Brody, the Temp, and the rest of the hosts may be carrying more hardware than Locutus of Borg.....it just doesn't show. Weapons, defenses, communications...you name it.

2) What makes you a candidate to join the alien "rent-a-bod" pool? Certainly not health. They fixed Brody like it was nothing special. Again, some internal quality. After co-opting them the aliens might set them up in occupations that grant them freedom of movement. That makes Brody's miraculous rise to wealth slightly suspicious.

Now about that last question of yours....

Qfanny wrote:

"But if powers are human, how do you explain why the shapeshifters (that is not a mammal) and the skins have power, (there skins are paracedic- like trees). There is NO HUMAN DNA in them, yet their powers are remarkiable similiar."

Geee....you've handed my imagination a buffet.

1) When mom put the hybrid plan in motion, it couldn't have been an off the cuff thing. It took time, resources, and personell to execute. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that it was a failsafe deal that they'd had in the hopper for a long time. "Plan WXFR1138: If the king buys the farm in a coup detat, a hybrid will be planted on Earth. Execute automatically in the event of assasination."

2) Why Earth? Presumably there are other life bearing worlds. Other species to mingle their DNA with. Why us? Given our hostile atmosphere, the execution of such a plan would be a pain. What if the species you choose has latent abilities similar to your own? Very similar? Almost identical?

3) The royal four had lost their war. They needed to win their world back. And presumably they will be at a disadvantage in doing so. Perhaps human and alien "powers" are different enough that, when fully matured and on the warpath, the hybrids would be harder to counter or kill than their predecessors were?

3) I submit that the shapeshifters are something different. Nacedo always felt...machine-like. Like his statement that he had to kill all humans who had knowledge of Pierce's corpse. That's a lot of humans. And he said it in front of human allies. Who, presumably, would take exception to a wholesale slaughter. To him it didn't matter a lick. If anything he reminded my of a Terminator. A superb soldier, guardian, and topflight killer...but absolutely zero imagination. He may not have been a machine, but a technology that can create the hybrids could create another sort of hybrid. Less human, more alien. Engineered to tolerate our atmosphere. But still orginating from Max's race.

3) The "skins" are simply aliens in an organic space suit. It isn't the husk that has the powers. It's the alien parasite within.

One last comment...

Regarding Nicholas as the guardian of the NY 4. It doesn't fly. It just doesn't "feel" right. However he did it, he found them. The yearbook, the info on the New Mex. 4...all of that he could have supplied to the dupes. Corrupt as they were, they'd have done anything to get what they wanted. In a twisted way, mom's use of them as decoys forged them into an ideal weapon for the skins.

We've noticed differences in Ava, Lonnie's ambiguous references to a protector, and 3 pods. We've also noticed that the NY4 seem to have more information.

What if the leaking sac damaged one of the embryos too badly or killed it. The protector could have hatched the other three. Since the NY set was defective, they became decoys rather than potential substitutes/part of a redundancy plan. To be effective decoys, there needed to be 4 Podsters. So, the protector shapeshifted to take the place of the missing Podster. Not telling the other 3 would make for a more effective decoy, especially given Nicholas' mind-rape powers.

My guess would be Ava, which could help explain (or provide an alternate explanation for) her knowledge re Liz, differences from Tess, why Zan was looking past Ava, Ava's guilt over failing to protect Zan, Ava's staying in Roswell initially (found out their protector was dead), and perhaps even why she "left" Roswell (might be better able to protect if she does not remain in the form of a Podster now that the enemies know what they all look like).

Again, I'm not sold on this--it doesn't "feel" right to me for some unknown reason (may just want Zan to have looked past Ava for other reasons). But I thought I'd toss it out.

The emissaries were humans "possessed" by aliens, right? Is there any chance that this is related to how T(alien)PTB got the alien essence into our podsters, ie., they took some human DNA, cloned it for the dupe effect, then infused it with consciousness ... but then maybe something happened (ie, like them dying) and the consciousness(es?) were infused permanently?

And given their powers, "mind over matter" isn't such a far-fetched possibility, so maybe it was the mental power that gave them power over their own molecular structure (wouldn't it be a kicker if the podsters inadvertantly changed their own (originally human) blood because subconsciously, each "believed" that there must be some evidence of being different?).

I am about to do something that I hate doing, I am going to post a theory that I developed last night that is based on a previous post by Leneba, but I will admit right now that I have not read threw this thread, so if I seem to repeating anyone else's ideas, please forgive me, that is clearly not my intention......

Does anyone else have the proble that there aren't enough hours in the day?????

One more thing.....I am going to cut and past this theory from an email that I wrote to Leneba so if it seems written to one person that should explain it.......

First I read your ideas about Tess being the protector and I got to thinking about that and even responded briefly on the sci-fi thread regarding your idea. I got to thinking that as the protector of the granolith, Tess was likely to have some significant role in the religious structure(s) of their planet. This led me to think that perhaps Zan as King was also considered a deity on his planet as many kings are (thinking Pharaoh (sp) specifically here, but that certainly isn't the only one).

Then I thought that if Tess was deeply involved in the religious structure she might be more in love with the idea of being in love with a deity than she was actually in love with Zan/Max as a person. That might explain her unwavering devotion to Max and her unquestioning loyalty to him as well. Blind faith. It also be used to explain some of Max's reactions to Tess.

That is pretty much what I posted on the sci fi thread.

Then I read a post and it suggested that it appeared that Ava's reaction to the revelation that Max brought Liz back was more than she let on. It seemed like the very fact that Max brought her back was more significant than the fact that Liz would be changed. They said that it was almost as if Ava knew of a story on her home planet that predicted Zan/Max saving a human girl..... yadda yadda yadda.

Well, that plus your idea really got me to thinking........so here is my further take on the possibilities................
OK, Zan was a King-deity. There was major discord on their planet with Kavar and the other warring worlds. There was a prophecy made that Zan would save the life of a girl from another world and she would rule with Zan bringing balance and harmony to their world. One interesting thing about prophecies is that they are not always accepted by all members of the religion. This prophecy intensified the discord and factions were formed or further divided. Zan wanting to bring peace to his planet fast decides to marry Tess (person with religious significance) in an attempt to stabilize the situation. He plans to be a loyal and loving husband even though he feels like something is missing for himself personally. Now something happens on the wedding day and Kivar (or is it Kavar?) attacks and everything comes crumbling down around them. Thus their plight on earth begins.......

Now perhaps Ava knows of this prophecy and she sees Liz as the girl spoken of in the prophecy. Now, how would Ava know of the prophecy? I have a theory on this too......

OK, so each set of podsters had a guardian. There seems to a little confusion on this issue. Some talk that Lonnie dismissed Tess's questions because they never had a guardian. But, and I can't reference it here specifically, but I am certain, that there is a statement made by either Lonnie or Rath that refers to their guardian in MITC. Plus Lonnie knew that the guardian was a "shapeshifter" during the conversation with Tess. OK, so given that each set of podsters had a guardian, I have been troubled by "why two sets?" question. The idea of a backup always seemed like a stretch to me so I am going to purpose another idea all together............

In order to get the podsters to earth it took the combined resources of two differing religious factions that had in common their desire for Zan to be King (I am not mentioning the royal four, because this would not be unified between the two factions). So each faction compromised and the royal four were selected, but two copies were sent and placed under the guardianship of a member from each faction (one faction wanting the prophecy fulfilled and the one wanting the union between Zan and Ava to proceed). Nesado would have been the guardian from the Union faction and the other guardian would have been from the prophecy faction. Thus explaining why Tess having have been raised by Nesado would believe and pursue her Destiny with Max and why Nesado was so antagonist toward Liz. It would also explain why Ava seemed so spooked by Liz's revelation that Max brought her back and maybe why Ava felt like Zan was always waiting for someone to come into his life.

There is only one major gap in my theory that I can see.....What happened to the other guardian??????? Is he Tic Tac (that still cracks me up)?. One other thing, where would Vilandra fit in all of this. Would she be a member of either faction? I think not. I think she would have been involved in the plot that led to Kivar's coup. Finally what about Rath/Michael, what would his role have been, do have yet another faction??????

OK, like I said, I went a little crazy here........really let my mind run wild with this one I think. After rereading this I almost feel like this is the beginning of a seriously sci-fi edged fanfic..........but I don't have time for that right now.

Well, let me know what you think. I really took your idea to the extreme huh?

If anyone else has any thoughts my my crazy ideas, please let me know thanks

Wisty

We've noticed differences in Ava, Lonnie's ambiguous references to a protector, and 3 pods. We've also noticed that the NY4 seem to have more information.

What if the leaking sac damaged one of the embryos too badly or killed it. The protector could have hatched the other three. Since the NY set was defective, they became decoys rather than potential substitutes/part of a redundancy plan. To be effective decoys, there needed to be 4 Podsters. So, the protector shapeshifted to take the place of the missing Podster. Not telling the other 3 would make for a more effective decoy, especially given Nicholas' mind-rape powers.

My guess would be Ava, which could help explain (or provide an alternate explanation for) her knowledge re Liz, differences from Tess, why Zan was looking past Ava, Ava's guilt over failing to protect Zan, Ava's staying in Roswell initially (found out their protector was dead), and perhaps even why she "left" Roswell (might be better able to protect if she does not remain in the form of a Podster now that the enemies know what they all look like).

Again, I'm not sold on this--it doesn't "feel" right to me for some unknown reason (may just want Zan to have looked past Ava for other reasons). But I thought I'd toss it out.

I actually really like this idea. It would explain why Lonnie kinda seemed to blow off Tess' questions. Do the NY4 actually feel that they got deerted? Espeically after seeing how the NM4 lived?

...Then I read a post and it suggested that it appeared that Ava's reaction to the revelation that Max brought Liz back was more than she let on. It seemed like the very fact that Max brought her back was more significant than the fact that Liz would be changed. They said that it was almost as if Ava knew of a story on her home planet that predicted Zan/Max saving a human girl..... yadda yadda yadda.

Well, that plus your idea really got me to thinking........so here is my further take on the possibilities................
OK, Zan was a King-deity. There was major discord on their planet with Kavar and the other warring worlds. There was a prophecy made that Zan would save the life of a girl from another world and she would rule with Zan bringing balance and harmony to their world. One interesting thing about prophecies is that they are not always accepted by all members of the religion. This prophecy intensified the discord and factions were formed or further divided. Zan wanting to bring peace to his planet fast decides to marry Tess (person with religious significance) in an attempt to stabilize the situation. He plans to be a loyal and loving husband even though he feels like something is missing for himself personally. Now something happens on the wedding day and Kivar (or is it Kavar?) attacks and everything comes crumbling down around them. Thus their plight on earth begins.......

Now perhaps Ava knows of this prophecy and she sees Liz as the girl spoken of in the prophecy. Now, how would Ava know of the prophecy? I have a theory on this too......

OK, so each set of podsters had a guardian. There seems to a little confusion on this issue. Some talk that Lonnie dismissed Tess's questions because they never had a guardian. But, and I can't reference it here specifically, but I am certain, that there is a statement made by either Lonnie or Rath that refers to their guardian in MITC. Plus Lonnie knew that the guardian was a "shapeshifter" during the conversation with Tess. OK, so given that each set of podsters had a guardian, I have been troubled by "why two sets?" question. The idea of a backup always seemed like a stretch to me so I am going to purpose another idea all together............

In order to get the podsters to earth it took the combined resources of two differing religious factions that had in common their desire for Zan to be King (I am not mentioning the royal four, because this would not be unified between the two factions). So each faction compromised and the royal four were selected, but two copies were sent and placed under the guardianship of a member from each faction (one faction wanting the prophecy fulfilled and the one wanting the union between Zan and Ava to proceed). Nesado would have been the guardian from the Union faction and the other guardian would have been from the prophecy faction. Thus explaining why Tess having have been raised by Nesado would believe and pursue her Destiny with Max and why Nesado was so antagonist toward Liz. It would also explain why Ava seemed so spooked by Liz's revelation that Max brought her back and maybe why Ava felt like Zan was always waiting for someone to come into his life.

There is only one major gap in my theory that I can see.....What happened to the other guardian??????? Is he Tic Tac (that still cracks me up)?. One other thing, where would Vilandra fit in all of this. Would she be a member of either faction? I think not. I think she would have been involved in the plot that led to Kivar's coup. Finally what about Rath/Michael, what would his role have been, do have yet another faction??????

OK, like I said, I went a little crazy here........really let my mind run wild with this one I think. After rereading this I almost feel like this is the beginning of a seriously sci-fi edged fanfic..........but I don't have time for that right now.

Well, let me know what you think. I really took your idea to the extreme huh?

If anyone else has any thoughts my my crazy ideas, please let me know thanks

Wisty

I understand where you are coming from, but would the theory also include the other humans i.e Maria, Alex, Kyle and Sheriff Valenti? I had posted a theory about King Zan wanting to advance the human race, but the other aliens wanted to continue to use humans as gineau(sp?)pigs and keep their superiority.
On another note QFanny - you are right about Nikolas not being the protector. Although, I really can't trust everything that Nikolas has said b/c he seems to be the big talker of the skins and he knows that all seven podsters don't know everything and he can twist things to make it seem true.

He knows more than anyone we've seen so far: the political situation at home, not that I think he's being truthful; the reason the 8 are here; the fact that 8 exist and their whereabouts (although he seems to have found out about the Roswell 4 only recently).

So he'd certainly be aware of how the NYC4 paired up (according to the roles back home). Also, the NYC contingent are not very subtle, so it wouldn't be hard to tell, though Zan seems to have paralleled Max's reluctance to be told where to mate.

All hail Michelle, Queen of Yonkers, High Priestess of the Sci-Fi Board!

Courtney made it patently clear that Nicholas had very different, even advanced powers compared to the rest of the skins. The other skins' powers seemed more like parlor tricks, like the season one powers the podsters displayed (though I can't think of a single example right now, shoot me).

Michelle is right, thus far he's the most well-informed character since Edsedo, who was less forthcoming, but certainly didn't infuse his information with the same propaganda as Nicholas does. He's been in cahoots with the NY 4, using them to secure the throne permanently for K'var (it's a transliteration so pardon the spelling), but the discovery of the NM 4, the "real royals," will thwart his plans, unless he can eliminate them and get the Granolith for his race.

Just trying to tidy up.

I do think your conception of why there were two sets of pods is more complicated than necessary, though. I just think it was kind of the theory of 'The heir and the spare.' Landing the pods successfully and having them raised on Earth was a highly risky enterprise. It makes sense that there was some hedging of bets by having a backup set and therefore increasing the odds of some success. And I think as much was stated in either 'Meet the Dupes' or 'Max in the City' or both.

1. We don't know much about her dad, so that's open.

2. In ID (last year), Maria's house had some suggestive background items: a wall sign said "I'm a princess -- I don't do dishes." Window decorations included something like a king's crown with three points.

3. GraceKel pointed out (in SH, I think -- Michael and Maria near the school athletic field?) a sign on a fence behind Maria said "Get Real," but much of the time we see only the "Real." Isn't that the Spanish word for Royal?

Hi Nemo!

In addition to the above there was a scene in Season 1 where Michael was able to find the hidden room ONLY after Maria walked over, stood by him, and told him to try again. One could either interpret that scene as: 1) her presence "calmed" him enough so that he could focus his powers, or 2) she "helped" him unknowingly with her own "alien" powers.

But really--the biggest argument for the possibility of her being something other than normal is that missing father. The writers can do anything they please with that--it is a juicy narrative gap to explore (if they want to) in the coming eppys.

LSS

Destiny

In which case, I think they should listen up, don't you?

Agree with you.

I think many fans in this forum are reading too much into the show.
Like recently, many people were asking why there were only 3 pods shown in NY instead of 4?

I think that is only a camera thing,
say if there is royal 10 instead of royal 4, would they show 10 pods one by one on the show? (considering each episode is only about 42-43 min)

Besides, if there were only 3 pods, wouldn't Max and Tess have noticed that and questioned that?

The fans are definitely thinking much more than the writer have thought.

But this SF thread is great, many fans are so intelligent and give so many brilliant clues.
I love this thread!

The write should definitely stop by this thread to fulfill their writing.

Destiny

Hi Destiny!

Truthfully? Since the writers' paychecks and livlihood depends upon this show, I think it is safe to say they have GREAT interest in it.

THEY want to tell a good story--a story that will bring in the required ratings and sustain their jobs (and be interesting to work on as well). And they have a limited time to achieve this in.

WE get to go over the result with a fine tooth comb. And "we" outnumber that handful of writers by quite a bit (the understatement of the year). Moreover, "we" come from all sorts of backgrounds with a variety of expertise-- from 13 yr olds to Ph.D's in Physics (Nemo) and the Humanities (me).

Ever write a paper and check it for errors and then hand it in only to find that your teacher/prof found some that you should have seen? That's the plight of our writers. And yes--they've made some mistakes that surprise me, but then the schedule they worked with is nothing if not filled with pressure.

Our writers are neither dumb nor disinterested. They work hard to conceive and produce this show.

Many of us view Roswell as a hobby. Others as entertainment. Some have found its story touching. Others have actually learned to have faith in soulmates and love from the M/L relationship. All of this is the mark of good writing and a good story.

As fans, Destiny, we can keep them on their toes. But in the end, we do owe them a debt of gratitude for their creativity.

LSS

It's why people like to talk about archetypes, the Holy Grail, the Archangel Michael, the Once and Future King, etc. Whether you "intended" them to be in your story or not, they're there. The hero has a thousand faces. Not many of them are as cute as Max Evans, admittedly.

And as LSS said, it's fun.

Bluecornmoon, I think that's why they picked the subway. We all "know" they couldn't really live there; that's a legend, archetype, whatever. Actually the subway represents the belly of the whale--a phase in the hero's journey--in a way a loft couldn't quite duplicate, although I do like the idea of living in a loft myself.

What a great ep that was.

--Liz

Someone asked if we have been given any clues about Maria having otherworldly ties and Nemo pointed out the PRINCESS remark Michael made in 285S. But I also noticed that Maria has this SHARK symbol on her locker at the CRASHDOWN, I have also seen this directly behind Tess in TLV and on Isabel's locker in the ASK NOT episode, although it was still Maria's locker they showed MAX standing in front of this SHARK symbol for quite a long pause in S and B eppy when he said "I KNOW WHAT TO DO" about the bones! We also had them playing MACK THE KNIFE--oh the shark has big teeth in SUMMER of 47. Also in Blood Bros Maria says something about smelling TOPOLSKY from a mile away(not exactly I forget how it actually went) also in SURPRISE eppy some nose comments passed between Maria and Liz, what does this mean well I am not sure but if Vanessa Whitaker in her journals(if these actually have any validity-not sure) said something about being able to SMELL Max Evans on LIZ PARKER--well we can only guess the significance.

Also if you place any significance on the fact that both BETTY O and Yvonne White both disappeared in SUMMER of 47. In the WIPEOUT eppy when Liz and Maria seem to be followed by some invisible thing watching them when they turn around beside the two of them it says on a sign "TODAYS's SPECIALS" and that Jeff Parker conveniently sent these two 30 miles out of town. The fact that Maria's father has not shown up does not really sway me one way or the other because Nancy or Jeff Parker seem capable to me of being just as alien as our podsters so but that is about all I have----oh one more thing in Summer of 47 Maria mentions always regretting not saying goodbye to BREEPA DELUCA yes that is correct I muted it--made me think of Brody Davis???

Also did anyone else think there was significance to Michael saying to Isabel about Max, "so they think he is a TREE HUGGER?" Well I thought the only one Max was hugging most of MITC eppy was Tess----and I thought where had I heard the word tree before when Courtney was talking about it in relation to HUSKS in the Harvest eppy
so what do you think?

Okay, just watched MiTC again and I think it's nothing more interesting than water dripping--sigh.

That might also explain why they brought Brody all the way from Roswell to attend the summit in NY rather than just get a new change of clothes - er, excuse me - new human in NY.

Isn't Brody from New England orginally? I think that originally the temps were picked out based on location and possibly physical qualities, enhanced mental capacities, that sort of thing... I just want to figure out why Brody was selected as a temp for possession.

What about gender on that question too? There was a pretty even mix of female/males at the table. Are the other leaders females, or did the *aliens* just not care? What does this imply, that the sexes are equal in the Twilo star system?

Hi Qfanny!

You know, I keep thinking that someday I'm going to do a feminist analysis of this show. But I never really get to the point where I'm comfortable with the prospect (too much deconstruction on something that is too much fun...I'm afraid if I take it apart it won't "work" like it did before).

But I will say that gender balance is more than simply counting the female bodies around the summit table. Although several female figures dot Roswell's landscape, few appear to maintain egalitarian relationships based on a consensus model of decision making. I think Izzy tries at times (but both Michael and Max are a far cry from being sensitized males--remember Max in Toy House? And who can forget, "I've got to be a wall" Michael?)

Aside from the momogram...we've seen no hint of any gender balace on Max's home planet. In fact, Valondra (sp) seems to have acted in a stereotypical "female as betrayer" mode.

And when Tess and Max looked out over NY, Tess encouraged Max in a supportive voice that sounded much like that of an adoring/or perhaps scheming (depending on your "read" of Tess) subordinate wife, not a royal Queen/equal.

As for the possession/gender issue. There are a number of SF stories that use the idea of a male entity in a female body (or female in a male body) as a vehicle to explore cultural definitions of gender. There was even a "Charmed" episode that had the olderst witch being transformed into a male. But I've got to say that I did not see any hint that we were going to explore these issues in that summit table scene. I think that the gender mix there was more visually driven than plot driven. Too bad. It would be an interesting line to follow.

LSS

Beyond that I don't have enough data to judge the state of females among the aliens. Were the skins following their gender in designing their husks? I saw no proof of it. So we have no proof of female soldiers as such. Max was king. Is a female acceptable as an absolute ruler? Again, insufficient data.

As it stands now, what hints we have say the females are not exactly 100% equal. But, as Orwell said, "Some are more equal than others."

quote:Originally posted by Jamethiel:
I've noticed that Max seems to be more of a "spiritual" king or leader similar to the Dalai Lama than our conventional thoughts on Kings and Kingdoms. Three times recently there have been symbols or words suggesting Max's spiritual power. 1) Liz refers to "Max the Saint" in the End of the World. 2) In Meet the Dupes, Max says goodbye to Liz in front of a round light that makes him look like he's got a "halo." 3) In Max in the City, during his conversation with Tess about trust & "being a good husband" he stands in front of a blue neon light that is circular. Halo number two! Makes sense to me that Max + three should have a magical mystical granolyth to give them spiritual, moral, and superpower legitimacy as rulers.

This really go along quite nicely with Palaminos post on the SF of End of the World. When it was mentioned that Max is pure of heart. Also the reference of Max & the Dalai Lama, didn't the Dalai Lama get the same offer of just being a figure head leader that Kivar offered to Max?

Kyle - His picking of Buddhism a considence. Maybe after being healed by Max he did feel Max's Pureness of Heart & went looking for that religion that was closest to Max's.

Tess - As Leneba stated maybe Tess is the protector of the Granolith. Could it be that this position of protector of the Granolith is passed down. That this protector when born naturally become bethrothed to the King of the Granolith?

Liz - I like Qfanny have a real problem with Liz's powers, so won't go there. But hope that she won't be healing anyone in the near future.

So, my guess is the other husks were destroyed by Tess' fire storm because they were weak but Nicholas survived it because his was stronger. He probably used the fire as a distraction to escape.

Welcome, k2d!

Your observation that Nicholas was the only child amongst the Skins is an interesting one, and I like your explanation for Nicholas' body reappearing.

On another thread, someone suggested that the fireball was simply a Tess mindwarp? But I don't subscribe to that theory. I prefer these new theories about Tess being the keeper of the Granolith, and if that's true, it wouldn't make sense for her to stage an escape by the Skins.

There are a lot of ways they could have portrayed the Dupes to distinguish them from the Podsters. They could have been private school educated, upper class types (a la 'Cruel Intentions') or the artsy offspring of Greenwich Village bohemians, but they chose to make them amoral, conniving street kids, who seem to have grown up without adult supervision. The idea of living in an abandoned subway station or tunnel track might in fact be ludicrous, but I'm sure it made a kind of sense to most who saw the show. Realistic detail is not what ROSWELL is about this year. Rather they are going for action, vividness and entertainment value. The Dupes provided that, whatever else they lacked for some of us.

Or why Michael or Ava didn't try to "boost" Isabel's energy the way Tess did Max in Harvest?

Could Isabel have seen what was going on with Liz when they worked together to project her? (I.e., the whole EotW thing?)

Also ... why would Liz appear at a distance from Max? Maybe I need to go watch it again (which is more than likely the case, I admit -- and will happily comply as soon as possible), but it looked to me as though Liz went OOB, appeared in NY ... and then had to wait for Max to approach her, rather than approach him

(I mean, wouldn't it make more sense to use him as a fixed reference point, so as he moved towards her, her image would have moved away from him?)

Oh, whatever.

...

Also ... why would Liz appear at a distance from Max? BehrAll, it reminded me of her fear with the healing stones. She says she doesn't know why she's afraid in a way that makes us think she's sincere, but could she be hiding the Future Max thing and fear that she might undo her successful change of the future?

I've read all of the pages and I've come up with a theory on why Nicholas survived Tess' fire storm. Did anyone else notice that Nicholas was the only 'child' of the Skins? This seemed peculiar to me in Harvest. He kept making it a point that he hated being in a 14 year old body and everyone else was clearly in adult bodies. Plus, in Wipeout he never scratched himself and he didn't look like he was pealing like the others. This gave me the thought that Nicholas was in that body for a purpose. If he is Kivar's spokesman, it would make sense that his husk would be a little more resilient than the average Skin since he is more important. Now, considering that a child body is in continuous flux, regenerating itself so to speak, then being in that body could protect him.

So, my guess is the other husks were destroyed by Tess' fire storm because they were weak but Nicholas survived it because his was stronger. He probably used the fire as a distraction to escape. Now, I didn't get to see Harvest (my WB had static although I could hear the dialog), so I may be wrong about Nicholas being the only child. But I'm pretty sure he was in Wipeout.

Don't worry about not keeping up. The rest of us have that problem, too!
As for That Little Rat Nikolas: my sibling Palomino and I have been mulling that one over. He's clearly the Boss Skin, but he has a body that's undesirable? You'd think he'd choose a better one. We're thinking he isn't really a Skin, as such. No peeling, as you mentioned, and he seems fire resistant. He did look horified at the wall of fire bearing down on all the Skins at the end of Wipeout. Perhaps he is a shapeshifter or something?
Anyway, he's not a normal alien, of any sort we've seen so far.

Isn't Brody from New England orginally? I think that originally the temps were picked out based on location and possibly physical qualities, enhanced mental capacities, that sort of thing... I just want to figure out why Brody was selected as a temp for possession.

What about gender on that question too? There was a pretty even mix of female/males at the table. Are the other leaders females, or did the *aliens* just not care? What does this imply, that the sexes are equal in the Twilo star system?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Hi, Qfanny. Always enjoy your posts! My reply was actually addressing two different, but similar, discussions. (I sometimes get confused with all the different ideas surfacing on the boards.)

First discussion: I was agreeing with Kzinti_Killer’s thought that the humans used for Temps (is there a better word out there for these characters?) must have certain abilities, talents, whatever that make them suitable for use as alien hosts. I liked his thinking that maybe their “latent powers” (a/k/a advanced human capabilities) might have to be at a higher state so that aliens can use them. These special humans may be a rarity and therefore any tinkering the aliens have to do to keep them serviceable—such as curing cancer—would justify their any resources they expended on them.

Second discussion: Several posters had questioned why Brody had to travel all the way from Roswell to NY for a summit when the aliens might just choose a new human Temp in or near NY. It may be that if these adaptable humans are a little hard to come by, the aliens did not have time to find and prepare another one before the summit. Or, could it be that a Temp is molded specifically for one alien presence, such as Brody for Larek?

Your idea about the Temps being chosen based on location is an excellent point that might be an indication of the strategic movements of the rules of the five homeworlds. For instance: if the Temps selected for high-ranking summit aliens were all chosen from the NY area, could it indicate that TPTB on the five homeworlds believed that this would be the region from which the Royal Four would reappear? If that’s the case, were the four dupes actually decoys to help draw the fractious factions of the homeworlds far away from the Roswell podsters?

Ree99

p.s. Qfanny, although I’m not really bothered with the idea of Liz being a changed human through her interaction with Max (I always kind of assumed she would be because of the flashes, etc.) and even though there appears to be some type of “special” connection Max and Liz have for each other, I truly hope the writers let the story evolve to show that their love for each other is not the result of some type of alien influence. Or, if the plot develops to indicate that their relationship was “meant from the beginning” (due to genetic coding, extraterrestrial reincarnation, whatever) that Max and Liz have chosen to love each other not because of it, but in spite of it. Free will versus destiny, that kind of thing. I know this may not quite make me a member of your “Liz is not an Alien” team, but maybe it could make me a waterboy?

snip, snip:
quote:
, I truly hope the writers let the story evolve to show that their love for each other is not the result of some type of alien influence. Or, if the plot develops to indicate that their relationship was “meant from the beginning” (due to genetic coding, extraterrestrial reincarnation, whatever) that Max and Liz have chosen to love each other not because of it, but in spite of it. Free will versus destiny, that kind of thing. I know this may not quite make me a member of your “Liz is not an Alien” team, but maybe it could make me a waterboy?
I fully intend to go rewatch Ask Not soon. We just don't know a lot about Brody, do we.
quote:....It happened to me 7 years ago. I was driving my car down the Massachusetts Turnpike, and before you know it, I'm in the room and they're doing...something to me, and then I'm back in my car and 2 days have gone by, and I'm in West Virginia. I would have written the entire thing off as an acid flashback. Then my doctor told me the cancer was gone. It was bone marrow. Terminal. A year to live and poof...it's gone.
I wonder if there is something about bone marrow cancer that makes Brody a more likely target for being a temporary? Although, it sounds like the reason why Brody was treated with alien medicine was to save his body for Larek. So that would suggest that Brody was chosen as a temp long before he had was diagnoised with bone marrow cancer: (Pity they didn't chose brain cancer-- would seem to make a lot more sense.) I wonder if Brody's red blood cells are the same as they were before he developed this cancer. Of course, they cannot possible look alien. My father died from luekemia and he was always in and out of the hospital getting his red blood cells checked. The lab techs would have known immediately if there was something unnormal about this.... Leaves me wondering yet. Bone marrow makes red blood cells, (if I remember things right, if not, I'll sure someone will correct me.). Perhaps the cancer was creating a natural, yet mutated version of the blood cells that Pierce showed Max from his body. Pierce said, "completely non-human." That could be why Brody was chosen as a temp. They picked him up 7 years ago, (1993), fixed him so that the cancer would not kill him, but left whatever genetic/environment mutation that cause the cancer dormant in Brody's system.

In composing this theory, it would be helpful to know more about the other temps, but like all theories, you work off of what factual information is presented, to create a logic.

Regarding alienesce Liz: Sure you can be waterboy if you want. I am slowly getting used to the idea that Liz can astro-project, and apparantly, it's something everyday people can claim to do. That Liz can seperate her soul from her body. And that ties very nicely into the soul mates theme of last season. (In reality, this is hard for me to believe people can do.)

I am a huge fan of free will and self fulling prophecy. I think that the reason why Liz is afraid to mindmeld with Iz is because she doesn't want to let go of her plans for herself. She wants to think that she can control every aspect of her life, "You've got to have a plan."

I still think that the Liz/Max storyline was fine the way it was. The idea that Liz would be torn between her heart and her mind over whether to be with Max or not. Making her alienesce permanently removes Liz from making a free will decision. They are linked together-- pyschologically now. And perhaps what the writers are really trying to explore is whether Max and Liz can exist without each other. Max is having the harder struggle, but is adjusting. In the end, they will discover that they can be apart, and that will allow them to reach interdependence and synergy if they decide to get back together. The way it was after Destiny, the strong feelings invoked by Liz walking away from Max, hindsight shows that they were co-dependant upon one another. I am encouraged with the promise of a stronger relationship for them, but making Liz alienesce was just wrong. Liz will have to deal with this fact and it could cause her to change some of her core behaviors, particularly if she starts developing new powers. Look how Kyle's personality changed!!!!

Sorry to rant, sometimes I know not what I say. (Which I always find surprising when people comment that they like what I say. Thanks for the compliment!)

Truthfully? Since the writers' paychecks and livlihood depends upon this show, I think it is safe to say they have GREAT interest in it.

THEY want to tell a good story--a story that will bring in the required ratings and sustain their jobs (and be interesting to work on as well). And they have a limited time to achieve this in.

WE get to go over the result with a fine tooth comb. And "we" outnumber that handful of writers by quite a bit (the understatement of the year). Moreover, "we" come from all sorts of backgrounds with a variety of expertise-- from 13 yr olds to Ph.D's in Physics (Nemo) and the Humanities (me).

Ever write a paper and check it for errors and then hand it in only to find that your teacher/prof found some that you should have seen? That's the plight of our writers. And yes--they've made some mistakes that surprise me, but then the schedule they worked with is nothing if not filled with pressure.

Our writers are neither dumb nor disinterested. They work hard to conceive and produce this show.

Many of us view Roswell as a hobby. Others as entertainment. Some have found its story touching. Others have actually learned to have faith in soulmates and love from the M/L relationship. All of this is the mark of good writing and a good story.

As fans, Destiny, we can keep them on their toes. But in the end, we do owe them a debt of gratitude for their creativity.

LSS

Ouch, I felt that slap on the hand

I have no doubt that the writers are incredibly invested in Roswell, especially Mr. Katims, and I appreciate them and owe them more than I can give for giving me a reason to survive Mondays I never ever would suggest that the writers of Roswell are anywere close to dumb. They are intelligent creative individuals. My comment was said in jest, which I hope everyone knows, because I do think that some times fans get a little more...carried away with the show than the writers do. Clearly Roswell would be more important to our inspired writers because it is their career and they are remarkable for having hooked the number of viewers that they have. I do get agitated with them from time to time, but no major complaints here. Thank you LSS for your comment, because even if it was somewhat humbling I do think that we need to stop and thank the writers from time to time for giving us a show that we all so clearly love.

Destiny

If 'back-from-the-dead' and high intelligence were prerequisites to getting 'hired' at the 'temp agency,' then Brody's noteriety and hospitalizations would have advertised his skill set for the position.

Rant away, Qfanny. Don't mind it all - it actually makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only one getting worked up over a television show!

You have really interesting thoughts about a possible link between Brody's cancer and his selection as a temp. (I'm very sorry to hear about your father. It's sad to be able to speak from experience about these types of things.) It seems that I'm firming up some ideas about the whole alien "Linda Blair" thing, and this possible link is another tidbit I'll put away in my Temp Theories file! Can you tell I'm very interested in these characters? It will be fun watching for clues as the second part of the season begins.

Good to hear from you...

Ree99

And, shapeshifter, what about location. In the year 1993, I think it is safe to assume that Brody lived/worked around the Mass. turnkpike. The location of the 2000 summit was in NY. I think everyone that was employeed as a temp must have lived in the area in the year 1993.

Is there anything that we know that happened for sure in the year 1993. Isn't that the year Max/Iz found Michael again and started 3rd grade?

First about answering some stuff above, some ideas:

EVERYBODY supposedly, who's had a near-death experience, reports transformational changes in perspective. Thus, Kyle's personality may not have changed, as much as his perspective - - to have been healed from the brink of death and to discover that his grandfather was right about ETs, would have to be life-changing. (This is part of what makes Kyle so satisfying right now: at least with his plotline, the emotional stuff is logical, is tracking; unlike other characters, who have traumas one day and get real perky a few days later.

For Qfanny - - hope for Liz and Freewill:
The "Temps" were prob. all "abductees" like Brody. It is possible to assume that when the aliens found likely subjects (possessing qualities favorable to accelerating their evolution, perhaps?), they worked on them and developed these subjects over a few years to make them better and better "conduits" for this "possession".

It was very interesting to me how Max viewed this process; in fact, it was he who labeled it "possession." He seemed be extremely concerned with the ethical implications of this, with the effect on these people's lives of being used in this way, demonstrating a repugnance to the idea that they were taken, altered, and seized repeatedly in order to be used for an agenda completely "alien" to them.

Even in S1Sexual Healing, he argued with Michael over pursuing their desperately-needed information through amorous activity with Liz (even though she was not only willing, but eager!). He objected to "treating someone I love as a thing, to be USED."

Perhaps the changes, even acceleration, that happened to Liz in the healing process were a more benevolent aspect of the "temp" phenomenon. Instead of seizing, possessing, or using a Liz, Max connected with her, only out of love, and only with her permission (the reverse connection). Perhaps this left a cord connecting them, a lifeline - - making possible communication, not abduction or abdication: voluntary, loving, two-way communication, with both parties consenting and aware of the process.

Or maybe the healing just opened up circuits already present, waiting either for evolution or just plain training and cultivation. This is a staple of sci-fi and fantasy stuff - - also, that extreme or heightened experiences can cause you to reach out with fledgling, hitherto unknown powers, and thus awaken them.

About trying to disprove FutureMax (and Liz), even as shapeshifting dupes: No good. Can't be done. We've tried everything, every way to make that episode go away.

FM was very careful, knowing as he did that Liz had been abducted by a shapeshifter before. He knew that the only way to prove to her who he really was, was to tell her things that only Max could know. (He couldn't risk kissing her and giving "flashes": he had to tell her only what was absolutely necessary, and the flashes might have given her images and information he knew Max & Liz had not had before.)

That's why he chose to come back on the night of the mariachi serenade: he needed a concrete event which he could predict, one that would not be "predictable." That Max would stop by her roof would be an easy shot; but WHO would ever have suspected that Max would do something as recklessly romantic as to stand beneath her balcony and serenade her from the alley? Accompanied by several attention-getting witnesses?

Didn't you almost perish the first time you watched that segment? Gasp, blush, look away? It was such a big leap for Max, that no one could have predicted it except the one who had already done it. He also knew the lyrics, knew about the roses, and knew exactly when her father would appear and break things up.

He chose that event as a definitive marker to shoot for, very close to the precise event he came to prevent: the Night of Gomez.

The change had to be "precise, surgical." And who but Max would have known about the Night of Gomez?

And the dupes are like the podsters - - they can't shapeshift. Max asked Tess (in M2TM) why Nacedo could shapeshift and they [podsters] can't, and Tess replied, "Because he doesn't have a human body like we do; he has to hide who he really is."

Over the last few years, I've been reading some stuff about anthropology, history, human evolution, etc. An interesting pattern emerged, which started to take shape and be reinforced from a number of sources.

Through many times and places in human history, a similar pattern could be seen as the status quo: a Warrior King, and a privileged class known as a Priestly Elite. The Priestly Elite claimed to have the only inside track to whatever deity was being worshipped; they would wield worldy power often rivalling that of the king: in many cases, actually exceeding that of the king, who was a mere puppet. And, puppet or not, it was very dangerous to offend this privileged class, and no king or leader thrived who did not support its continued dominance, prominence, and profit.

A couple of examples: King Tut's father started to promote a view that the god supported by this elite (Ah-ten or Ah-mun, I can't remember which) was harsh and merciless, and that there was only One God, (Ah-ten or Ah-mun, the one left over), merciful and loving - - and that no one needed highly paid parasites to get to him. The father was a "god-king", believed to be the real son of a deity, and he actually changed his name from Ahken-amun to Ahken-atun (whichever, meaning son of whichever deity). He died mysteriously soon after; and his son, Tut the boy king, had his name changed back by the priests from Tutank-atun to Tutank-amun (or whichever). As the boy grew to manhood, he changed his name back again to reflect his father's beliefs, and LO! Tut died mysteriously at a very young age.

This pattern is seen in the life of Jesus of Nazareth, who was allowed to wander about and teach his ideas, until he annoyed and threatened the priestly elite. (And no, this isn't my religion, and I'm not proselytizing.)

This pattern offers some interesting possibilities for future plot development, esp. in the light of 1) what Laryk told Max (his former self had been idealistic and redemptive) and 2) the messianic imagery which the show has already used several times. (Max's first choice in any situation is to offer himself as the sacrifice, or as the champion in single combat; he was chained to the wall in a crucifixion-like stance when he hallucinated in WR; and he was referred to as "the Once and Future King", a reference to Arthur, also a messiah figure who will return when his people need him most).

Anyway, former Max could have been a king threatening a priestly elite, like Ahken-amun. It could partially explain why the home team were so desperate to recreate their original leaders, instead of trying to let other leaders step up to the plate (and why Max still has followers after half a century) - the original king was the head of a movement, religious or philosophical as well as temporal in its power.

This elite are now embarrassed by the absence of the granolith (if it is indeed a religious artifact, as it seems), and are desperate to get it back. It's needed by K'var, not just by the skins who need a facelift. At least that's one significant development of the "summit" - - the five worlds will now know that K'var has lost control of the big G.

It's late, I'm z-z-z-ing out, and this prob. isn't making sense to anyone (even me) by now - - but I think there are more possibilities here I'm too tired to see at the moment.

The most notable from MitC: What exactly was Max supposed to find inviting about the "deal"?

Usually at a "summit", leaders meet to make mutual compromises, and Laryk says something at the beginning of the meeting about it being about healing and reconciliation, not about squabbling and assigning blame. This would imply that both sides (I'm assuming there are only two?) give up a little and receive a little. Even in a mythic "devil's bargain" situation, the deal is supposed to appear very tempting - - and only later show up to be a hoax, a trap.

There was nothing even remotely appealing about this deal; all Max & Co. were offered was a chance to go "back" - - and anyone could tell it was a one-way ticket.

Nicholas told Lonnie that it was all a trick, that the only thing Max would be getting was a nifty public execution extravaganza; Lonnie replied (something like), "Yo! Even I could see that!"

Yo! So could we all. So a big dramatic turning point was flattened out, in that the offer wasn't even tempting. And we all know Max, and know that he and Isabel have never been particularly interested in giving up life in Roswell, NM.

It was also strangely inconsistent that Max refuses the offer because his heart (and Liz, the castellan of his heart) tells him that the granolith was entrusted to him for a reason, and that he shouldn't just give it away. Yet when he gets home, he tells Iz that he "was going to accept Nicolas's offer," but he realized that any plan which didn't include Iz and Michael was something he couldn't do - - making it sound like he's basing decisions (in which millions of lives hang in the balance) on his personal needs.

These things undermine not only the dramatic impact of the show, but also undermine the credibility and respect for its key character.

With regard to Max the God King, I don't see it. Actually he reminds me more of Aragorn from the Lord of the Rings. Aragorn was descended from a hybrid line. A line of deposed kings seeking the return of the Crown. And I remember clearly a line from The Return of the King..."The hands of the King are the hands of a Healer". Or words to that effect.

Of course that would make K'var Sauron. *g* And the skins would be orcs......

I had a thought- when Liz was holding onto Isabel, she could "dreamwalk"- sort of- Max. Does that mean that if she is holding Max's hand that she can heal people? Or if she's holding michaels hand that she can kill people or blow up rocks and what not? Or maybe if she holds Tess's hand she can go genocidal- who knows I was just thinking about this; sorry if it has already been dissected by you guys!

Destiny

Hi, estherterrestrial. When Rath explains to Max about the how the delegates come to earth, he makes a reference to their possession of a human body as a "Linda Blair" thing. (Can't remember the exact dialogue!)

LAR, I'm missing a reference here (will go back and check out the AN eppy). Your question about the first time Larek "beamed in" to Brody, can you explain a little more? Thanks!

Ree99

Destiny

Destiny, I have spent too much time thinking about the powers of Liz, but what she did was astro-project, IMHO. A dreamwalk let's you inside the mind of the subject. A mindwarp brings the subjest into your mind. Liz had no voice, so her body and soul were seperated, Liz seemed to be view by Max's outwardly eye, and cars seem to serve to avoid her.

It may be too early to tell, but I think Liz's power is to seperate her body from her soul. BTW-- this is something everyday people claim that they can do... So I don't know what Ava was refering to when she told Liz, Iz, and Michael that she's different now.

I also want to point out, that it does not fit the "altered" Liz premise to have Liz hold someone's hand all the time to use her power. Aside from being a *major* obstacle to stop storyline's action in order to hold hands all the time, if the writers decided to give Liz a power, they are not going to do it half ass. (Sorry for the slang).

Again, I need to clarify that I still have great reservations about altered Liz. We still don't know what this means and hopefully, it will not be bad.

Ditto, from my corner of the room Michelle in Yonkers. People on both sides of the show have an investment in it, and I think it's normal for fans to get emotional over the show--especially when a particular aspect of the story touches a fan deeply, whether it's the Liz/Max story, Michael/Maria story, etc. I've posted before when I was emotional about something and then regretted it the moment I hit the submit button. Saying my thanks right now, Michelle, for this television show we all enjoy.

quote:Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers:
The most notable from MitC: What exactly was Max supposed to find inviting about the "deal"? There was nothing even remotely appealing about this deal; all Max & Co. were offered was a chance to go "back" - - and anyone could tell it was a one-way ticket.

My feelings exactly! I've been posting that I don't trust Larek at all - I think he and the red-headed business woman alien (GOT to find out her name) are both working with Nicholas.

The timing of the summit, leads me to think that maybe the following occurred:

Harvest: Nicholas gets confirmation that the Royal Four are comprised of Max, Isabel, and Tess (he obviously finds out about Michael either in this eppy or the next). It may be that CW had shared her suspicions with the other Skins, but the confirmation comes from their contact in this episode.

Wipe Out: Nicholas and company go to Roswell to find the podsters. It is here that he finds out Max is in possession of the granolith.

Meet the Dupes: Now we have the second set of podsters making an appearance. I haven’t posted this before, but I really don’t think the NY4 had much more knowledge about themselves than our Roswell folks. I believe they probably entered the world on their own, with no protector in sight, and made it the best way they could. The NY4 constantly avoided answering questions about their guardian and they struck me as teens who have had very little to absolutely no guidance, good or bad, in their lives at all.

To me it seemed that everything the NY4 professed to know about their previous lives, their home world, was said by rote. I could not help thinking that Nicholas found them (either before/after Harvest/WO), gave them specific information – maybe true, maybe not so true – about their former lives, fed their egos with all kinds of glory, and gave them hope for a return to a world where they would indeed be kings.

I think he used the personalities of the NY4 to encourage dissent and probably encouraged Lonnie/Rath to kill Zan. Then Nicholas sent them after Max by providing them names, places, etc.

MitC: Nicholas presents Max to the ambassadors from the four other home worlds. His strategy has paid off, he has Max where he wants him, and no matter which way the summit goes, Nicholas (and K’var) wins. If Max accepts the idiotic deal, then they get the R4 and the granolith in their possession. If Max doesn’t accept the deal, he has basically undermined Max with the other four ambassadors (if they weren’t enemies already) by making him appear selfish, weak, uncaring, etc.

quote:Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers:
It was also strangely inconsistent that Max refuses the offer because his heart (and Liz, the castellan of his heart) tells him that the granolith was entrusted to him for a reason, and that he shouldn't just give it away. Yet when he gets home, he tells Iz that he "was going to accept Nicolas's offer," but he realized that any plan which didn't include Iz and Michael was something he couldn't do - - making it sound like he's basing decisions (in which millions of lives hang in the balance) on his personal needs.

I know what you’re saying here. But, I think Max probably made his decision based on more than just one thing. While he was talking to Tess during the summit break, he is obviously very concerned about Liz’s comments on the granolith – he said he just couldn’t get it off his mind. So, I’m choosing to think that, as our cautious Max, he actually based it on more some pretty good reasons, foremost his concern about the granolith falling into the wrong hands and creating an even worse situation for “millions of people” on his home world. Additionally, he had very limited knowledge about his prior life and home world and knew nothing of the ambassadors; vital components needed for such a monumental decision.

Other, more emotional, things probably played into it, of course. There has been the recurring theme of “following your heart” throughout the story. Max distrusted the dupes and Nicholas, was shocked/upset when faced with the prospect of suddenly leaving his earthly life (which is very precious to him) relatively at a moment’s notice, and was still reeling from his interactions with Liz, Iz, and Michael. So, maybe it was the best kind of decision that can be made—one based on fact and logic, supported by “gut instinct” (or, more poetically, "your heart").

Ree99

p.w. Love Liz as the "castellan of his heart!"

Qfanny's reply
This is exactly what I've been saying! The summit was a hoax, a political brainwash.

Unfortantely for Max, he has not realized just how manipulative the Summit meeting was; perhaps Liz will be able to shed light on it. Also, K'var only wins because Max has no apparant way to communicate what happened to his followers. K'var may not be aware that there is a communication break between the Royal Four and the homeworld. But it's likely that he does know this. This is where the communicators could be used, to help Max out... Come on guys, you got the orbs still, figure it out!!!

I have to say that I was shocked and offended by the whole "alien sex" thing. NOBODY does it better than we humans can, NOBODY! It can’t be that good if Lonnie was willing to leave it—and Rath—behind at the drop of a hat.

It’s surprising how people seemed more upset that other lifeforms do it better than us than the fact that in fourteen years or so they’re going to come and kill us all! I think the writers are trying to engage us by touching on our racial pride.

Lonnie and Rath started going at it when Max started asking too many questions, so they might have been trying to distract him. What better way to get a teenager’s mind off something than to . . .

quote:Too bad NY Zan never got to react to meeting Liz Parker. It could have been very interesting.
palomino

That was the moment what I was waiting for from the first moment that I heard about the duplicates: how will Liz react when she meets Dupe Max? The writers really cheated us on this one.

quote:2. Apparently Max was trying to change things on his planet (government?) to make it better for his people. Larek said it was too much too soon, so this implies Max could have been a new ruler, and his ideas were innovative and revolutionary.
palomino

Maybe Max was trying to establish a democratic monarchy He probably saw how great it works in the U.S. and tried to establish it on the home planet.

quote:Scarey Part : if the aliens can posess people, they could send innocent humans(even familiar faces) after Max to kill him. Would Max kill an unwitting human being used by aliens to defend himself? Max said Brody's name out loud, so the aliens at the summit know that they know each other. Trace Brody, and you have found Max. He is not a sitting duck for just Nicolas anymore.
palomino

That is a chilling thought. But Brody said it takes an enormous amount of power to control a human, especially from God knows how many light years away. A possesed human would probably be no match for any of the podsters—unless they ambushed them while they were sleeping.

quote:I spent months and months defending Liz's imporatance to the aliens as a human. I was pig headed and stubborn about it. I knew that Liz was special beyond the terms classified as normal, but I trusted the writers to explain this importance without diving into this cop out
. . .
I just want to say, there was nothing wrong with Liz as a regular human in the first place. My new hope is that the writers refrain from giving Liz too many powers too fast.
Frankly, I miss the old Roswell, with the human Liz. I strongly identified with Liz and I wonder just who the hell I can identify with now.
Qfanny

I agree. Definitely. I thought that Liz was special because of who she is, not what she is. Ah well, it’s done now. I just hope that the change is a subtle one, hopefully they’ll put off having Liz crack rocks until the third season.

When I saw that scene where Ava tells Liz that she’s been "changed" I just knew Rosfans everywhere were saying "I knew it! I knew it!" LOL! I swear, half the fun of watching these episodes is getting to discuss it with all of you.

quote: Thoughts of K'var coming to Earth and taking over Liz's body came to mind! Great ending for Season II, don't you think? Max would not be able to harm him (her?) and I can envision a year of suffering for all of us Dreamers! he he he!
bluecornmoon

Oh God, no! I can sum up how I feel about Max and Liz’s current relationship in three words: "killing me softly." I don’t know if I can take any more.

quote: Also, did it seem funny to you that Tess said she and Nacedo were close? Last season she bemoaned that he was not human in the least (not the nurturing type) and this season she said again he was no "Ward Cleaver".
JC

Alien or not, Tess is still a teenager. Around that time people start pulling away from their "protectors" and seeking out people their own age.

Even though Nacedo might have been distant, he was a better guardian than whoever was in charge of the New Your Four; did you see the look on Tess’ face when she walked into Rath and Lonnie’s "crib?" complete shock. Nacedo would have never have let Tess sink so low.

All her life Tess had someone that she knew would die to protect her. It must be hard to lose that, and now that he’s gone she probably realizes how much he meant to her.

quote:Yeah, and I don't think there's a "changed" pidgeon flying around either.
Leneba

LOL!

quote:Hate to disagree, but I live in NYC and inspite of some geographical inconsistencies about the city there are homeless people who have built shelters in subway and train tunnels. It is not such a stretch for the Dupes to live there.
zanbehr

What about Ava? We don’t know for sure what her powers are and if they’re different in any way from Tess’, but she could mindwarp anyone who stumbled across the NY4’s place into believing there is nothing there.

quote:Maybe I missed it -- but has there been any speculation about why Liz was so afraid to mind-link with Isabel? (They did make a noticable fuss about it, considering the other, more immediately threatening things she's thrown herself into before.)
BehrAll

Like Kazanti_Killer said, she is probably afraid of losing who she is. Risking your life is one thing, risking who you are is another.

quote:Unfortantely for Max, he has not realized just how manipulative the Summit meeting was; perhaps Liz will be able to shed light on it.
Qfanny

Do you mean that once he talks to Liz that she could give him some new insight into what happened, or that Liz has some knowledge from future Max that could be useful to present-day Max?

Nike

Great post, sums up all the important questions/events that occured in MitC.

I guess what I mean is, Liz is and has been the *brains* of the pod squad team. I guess I don't know that Liz would have any additional information than Max, but she has typically always been able to figure things out before anyone else.

I suspect that once Liz hears the events of the summit, how
1) Max refused K'var's option of returning home if he returns the granolith, and
2) Nikolaus's statement to the other ambassador's about how they were all witnesses to K'var's generosity, and given her knowledge that
3) the granolith is extraordinarly powerful it won't take much for Liz to figure out that Max did not have anything to gain from the summit.

quote:
Lonnie: I would have to be a special kind of stupid not to figure that (K'var's intent to excute Max) out.

Liz is anything but stupid! She sees things for what they are. It is her strength and her weakness.

Nike: Have to say it's good to hear from a another fan that "altered" Liz is not what it's cracked up to be. Disappointing, isn't it. Oh well. Still could be good in the end. I am more hopeful than I was Monday night. But the writers will have to trend these waters carefully.

Cartwright's Disease - a Principle Character falls madly in love with a Guest Star. They marry, and are going to live happily ever after. Key scene: she tells him she'll love him forever. Last scene of episode: PC is placing flowers on grave of GS. GS has died of a tragic accident, a tragic illness, tragicly complicated childbirth, etc. Tasteful yet modest funeral optional.

This happened several times, to all the Cartwright clan, and so it became as familiar as the Villan's Exposition, in which Dr. Fiendish tells Our Hero his entire diabolical plan, including notes on how to thwart it if he escapes Dr. F's clutches. This is a stock item in James Bond movies, for example.

The Linda Blair thing is a reference to "The Exorcist", in which the character played by Linda Blair is possessed, in this case by the devil. Not to be confused by humans possessed by aliens...

What, am I the only one around here that watches TV much?

What, am I the only one around here that watches TV much?

Thank you for the info, Reggie & ree99! I guess I've always made a point of avoiding horror movies. I'm probably the only person in the world (or the US anyway) who hasn't watched "The Excorcist" or "Psycho."

I absolutely agree. It seemed strange that:

1. Since it was so important to kill Max, Lonnie and Rath didn't make sure he was dead.

2. Lonnie and Rath left Tess alone (for Max to find?)

I surmise that Lonnie killed Rath and took over Tess' body. I can't believe that she would give up so easily. Lonnie is a very determined character with a strong will and she will do ANYTHING to get what she wants!

First I don't have a serious problem that she may be changed if it is handled subtlely. The whole thrust of the first season's Liz diaries was how her life was never going to be the same after Max healed her. This just takes it to the next evolutionary step. Besides it makes her more of an equal to Max and a more likely royal mate IMHO.

As for what the extent of her ability is or if it is linked directly or solely to Max remains to be seen. Someone wondered why when she astral projected to the NY street she was so far from Max. And in fact appeared in the area before Max and the Dupes got there. Perhaps a bit of "precognition"? In either case I think it may have been a deliberate device by the writers to indicate her ability was independent of whatever connection she has to Max. She saw the real environment and events from her own perspective, not Max's. She appeared in a form visible to Max (it almost looked as if Tess might have seen her as well), but outside of his mind, in a way totally unlike Isabel's dreamwalking which Izzy could only do when Max was unconcious or heavily drugged.

Hello and good point, GraceKel. This is not the first time. In her episodes in season one there have been many instances where one moment she is a little-girl and the next she is super-vamp. Girl-Woman.

I have wondered about this often. And still her response in MITC caught me off balance and had me thinking again about first season and analyzing again how EdR was interpreting her character. And many have believed there was a reason for her 'child-like' appearance.

I never bought that Tess was part of the podsters, nor a podster at all. I believe she is different. Now with the information since WO, MTD and MITC, some others have suggested that perhaps Tess' power is linked to and/or directly related to the Granolith. Others have astutely noted that, of late, she has an immediate and elemental reaction to mentions of the Granilith. I'm forgetting the context, but did she not take credit for leading them to the Granolith?

Perhaps GrannyLilith is dominant in her brain intermittently...see, hears, feels through Tess. Experiences sexuality as Edsedo does. Perhaps 'She' projects Tess (the window scene with Michael and appearing to Max in his bed in ?4Square). She knows nothing and then she 'knows' and understands everthing. Her memory )even those she tries to recover) are of a different quality than the podsters.

But this begs the question. Is Tess ancient, rendered immortal by the power of the Granilith (assuming this scenario, of course) or is she only one of a long line of young women?

Anyway, I believe Tess is almost older than dirt, a goddess and many goddesses throughout her travels on this planet. Maybe we can take this a step further. Perhaps she is Granolith INCARNATE? A mix of sci-fi and of myth. In other words, Granilith in 'human' form, the female element. Fertility, creation, rebirth. Ancient cultures were goddess worshippers. Treatment/portrayal of women aside (and I have not been happy with some instances of this in Roswell) there is a subtext of the Goddess in Roswell in all the women, including Mrs. Evans.

Granilitha is in love with Max. But power (like the 'gods') has 2 sides or faces, so would manifest in Tess AND Eva.

Not a theory, except perhaps the 'walk-in' into Tess part, just a thought exercise. What do you think? If this has been discussed before I would like to hear the thoughts. My computer has been broken most of this week and I am a bit behind.

Rosta~~~~~~ ~~~~~~

...As for what the extent of her ability is or if it is linked directly or solely to Max remains to be seen. Someone wondered why when she astral projected to the NY street she was so far from Max. And in fact appeared in the area before Max and the Dupes got there. Perhaps a bit of "precognition"? In either case I think it may have been a deliberate device by the writers to indicate her ability was independent of whatever connection she has to Max. She saw the real environment and events from her own perspective, not Max's. She appeared in a form visible to Max (it almost looked as if Tess might have seen her as well), but outside of his mind, in a way totally unlike Isabel's dreamwalking which Izzy could only do when Max was unconcious or heavily drugged. The above post reminds me of the Mommogram appearance. Perhaps Mommo was a real human, saved & changed (and maybe loved?) by Nasedo or someone else, and Max & Is lived in her uterus before being put in the pods? Hal said the pods held "fetuses" not "embryos." Perhaps the pods were similar to Moses' basket.

If they go back to the pod chamber with the orbs again, will Mommo pop up with a post-FM-visit marriage arrangement suggestion? Of course this would probably also give ol' Nick another signal from the granolith site.

Rosta, Tess's protectiveness of the granolith gives support to your ideas, but I think the inconsistencies in Tess's personality are owing to different writers.

estherterrestrial, I too don't do horror and haven't seen those 2 flicks. In fact, I've never seen Disney's The Shaggy Dog because when it came out, the previews of a person changing into a dog were terrifying to me. Fortunately Maxcedo and Piercedo are more attractive.

1) Now, wouldn't it make sense that Liz is changed and Kyle not? Kyle did say in EOTW that he saw no flashes while Liz did. So maybe Liz was changed because of Max's love for her.

2) Are Lonnie and Rath like our NM4? Remember in MTD, they SSed to look like our 4 podsters, so maybe they are not like ours.

3) What did Tess do to them at the end?(personally, I hope she killed them. I thought worse of Lonnie than Rath. Rath just wanted to go back and tried it the hard, quick way. Lonnie was a manipulative b*tch, in my opinion.)

Peaceout

Jen

I kind of thought the line was vulgar, but it showed how different the NY4 were to the NM4. Now how would Rath know what was better, him being alien and all!

We are assuming that Liz gets visions because she was changed when Max brought her back. And IMHO, the assumption is a fair one to make. But, we have absolutely no proof this is why she gets visions. And that being so, this again makes me wonder why? do this (employee the altered Liz theory). If the reason for having her change is to explain continuity issues, then where is the exposition to prove it??? Why do something half way? Is it suppose to be more fun?

Perhaps JK believes it's more fun to give out the hoped-for exposition very gradually. Early in the first season, he made some comment about how it's interesting that the aliens in the story don't know their own history, and we get to find out along with them.

1)Liz: It would make more sense to think that she is an "advanced" human rather than a partial alien. Nasedo said that all the alien's powers were within the realm of human possibility. They were created to do everything the human mind was capable of doing. Max having brought back Liz has just opened her up to using these "powers" that we all apparently possess. It isn't too far-fetched to think we are capable of doing more than what we currently think. The human mind is so complex, and we know so little about it that it is inherently possible that we can do more.

2) L/M/T triangle: It is possible that in creating Max and Zan that their was one flaw they couldn't fix: that Max/Zan wouldn't love Tess/Ava the way they do one the planet. They would always be searching for someone else, someone they could explore and be different with. For Max it's Liz. He can discover the human side with her. With Zan, we're getting conflicting messages. Ava doesn't mention him having a significant other, while Lonnie pays reference to "his b**ch". Are the writers not paying any attention, or is one of Lonnie or Ava not telling the full truth? I do like the theory of Zan having come to earth, taking over a humans body, and falling in love with someone else. That would be such an interesting plot development!

And did I mention? I am loving Maria and Brody. While I am a Candygirl, I have to admit, Brody is making Maria much happier than Michael has been of late. Can we say "love triangle number two"?

Anne

Later, as Max meets the emissary (in a building that lacks internal walls), the camera moves past a foreground object -- a T-shaped bit of plumbing, pointed on one end and blunt on the other, with a valved-off port. The effect is a little like a rocket ship passing by. Maybe it also symbolizes the role of the emissary as a delivery channel.

I can't tell you how much I appreciate your post on Brody and the galaxy sub. I've thought about it on and off for a while, and it's just too good to be true. I have you and GraceKel to thank for all those signs.

Anyway, regarding the antennae and alien transmissions, I found it interesting that Max gave Liz those "antennaes" at the end of the episode. I know it was meant to be cute, but perhaps that is what Liz actually has-- an antennae that can transmit to Max.

More seriously though, probably the reason why the summit was in NYC is because, and I'm guessing, most of the world's satellitees are probably directed at New York city than any other city. I am thinking of Independence Day (the movie) where we are shown how the "aleins" used our own satellites to conduct their assault against us.

I asked about what sort of technology would be required to possess a temp from such a distance. Based on the fact Isabel cannot reach Max from a more local 1500 miles, I wonder how the aliens can do this from LYs away. It would be interesting to see the radioscope reports to see if there was any glitches with airwave frequencies.

Perhaps there is an advantage to NY city, but the advantage I would think would be based in a technical area as opposed to a economic/geographical reason. In some ways, the skyscrappers would interfer with the transmissions.

sorry, I'm rambling

I'm glad we have this place where we can pool our discoveries.

Regarding the little antenna that Max does behind Liz' head, I believe that was a reference to the old TV show "My Favorite Martian". Whenever the alien "uncle Martin" used his Martian powers two little "TV-rabbit ear-like" antennas would slide up from behind his head. It was a cheesy special effect, but appropriate for the charming comedy. Either Max, Jason or the writers are making a subtle reference to that.

When I first heard about the possession, that is, when Brody/Larek said that possessing their bodies was "eating up their resources" it reminded me of something but I couldn’t remember what.

Then it hit me.

Are there any Anne McCaffrey fans out there? Remember the Talent Series? To Ride Pegasus, Pegasus in Flight, The Rowan, Damia, Damia's Children, and Lyon's Pride. It has been years since I read these books so my memory of the details is a little fuzzy, but, in those books the telepaths were able to boost their powers by tapping into energy generators. How that was supposed to work exactly, I don’t know. I’m guessing that these generators work like our nuclear plants do, except instead of using the energy for toasting bread or watching the WB, they were at the disposal of the people with special abilities.

Perhaps the reason why the granolith is so important isn’t that it’s one-of-a-kind, but that it is the most powerful or efficient energy source known to the Five Planet Federation.

If I recall the McCaffery stories correctly, the Powers were constrained by the laws of physics. To allow possession Roswell style to work, a viable method of FTL communications would be necessary. Presumably the ET's would find "possession" a cheaper way (energy wise) to get things done than actual travel. If using an avatar was so horribly expensive in resources, imagine what actual travel must be like. In both time and money.

A few things to consider...

They were interacting in *real time*. That means *no* lag time at all. Instantaneous communication. So I imagine it works like this. A cerebral interface that feeds into an FTL com system. At the Earth end, a receiver/signal booster that feeds into what ever gizmo it is that couples to the avatars.

Other reasons constrainng a hands on visit for a summit. Travel time or cowardice.

1) They may have FTL com, but I sort of think that their method of physical travel is slower. They may have needed a solution quickly. Too quickly to allow for travel.

2) They may be afraid to spend that time away. Perhaps they have underlings waiting for a chance to take over in the master's absence. Or they may fear that one of their number will lie and stay home to launch an all out assault on the other four worlds. Or perhaps they're just plain phobic about coming here.

3) Perhaps that's why they want the Granolith. If it can move things through time, then it can move them through space. It may be a way around time consuming travel.

It just occured to me that the energy usage cuts both ways. If sending the signal gulps down huge amounts of energy, then the return signal must also. If the reciever/transmitter on this end is entirely parasitic, then they have the means of transferring gigawatts worth of energy instantaneously across space. If it isn't parasitic on the homeworld end, then somewhere on Earth, or in near Earth space, there's one hell of a generator setup. Where is it? And why haven't the locals noticed? Presumably either way would kick up a fuss in the local electromagnetics. For me, my vote goes to the Bermuda Triangle. The home of alien Con. Ed. *g*

OT: "maxcedo" has started a Scific of the rerun of S&B. I'm going to sleep now, but it would be nice if someone wanted to keep it going.

I'll stick with this thread. There's still a lot of "meat" on it without going over old territory.

GRACEKEL, I do believe there is a Native American language (which one eludes me at the moment) that has that type of clicking sound. I'll try to find out which one. There is also an African language with the same sound. In animal kingdom, dolphins have this sound. I thought of Native American language when I heard it.

Considering a posibility of Tess being Granilith projection, Granilith 'walk-in' temp, or 'made-flesh' embodiment(and assuming there may have beeen another energy spectacle if, indeed, she dispatched Rath and Lonnie) then mabye this is Granilith 'noise'. You may certainly be correct about the possibility of android or biomechanical being of some kind.

Rosta

I get the distinct feeling that K'var and the skins aren't so much eager to have it themselves (though again, it would be useful) as they are to deny it to Max and his supporters on the home world.

Also in the LN ep, re the Run-Lola-Run concept: Liz says once you leave normal, you can never return. Did FL remember this?

One more: when Kyles thugs say about Max: "he's the one" it sounds a lot like Rath saying "you're the man" and there's the further parallel of the thugs beating Max up and Rath killing Zan and trying to kill Max.

I don't think that means that her gift was unconnected to Max. Liz shows up at the place where he's about to die if she doesn't warn him, the place of danger and death to Max - - his need drew her to that place. It reinforces that some sort of bonding took place, that they really are inseparably connected in a unique way.

We had hints of that throughout season one: the whole orbs and V-formation in the sky sequence of events could have been stuff that constituted alien mating/ bonding, perhaps for life, and perhaps it was supposed to happen with Tess - - but she wasn't there. Liz was, and that may have changed her further, as much as the healing did.

Perhaps that even gives a reason for the home team to have sent mated pairs to earth: not that they're supposed to reproduce right away (which would seem a bit inconvenient for guerrilla fighters), but that if the time came for their mating/ bonding needs to flower (a la Mr. Spock in Star Trek), there would be someone there with whom they could complete the connection. A reach, I know, but we're going to have to get good at that, don't you think?

ALIEN SEX: It's a staple of SciFi & fantasy written by women that there's more to sex than gadgets and gonads - - Psychic Sex, the ultimate - - when you can link or connect on many levels of being at the same time. It could range anywhere from just sensing how your actions actually feel to the partner, to really experiencing each other all the way up to spiritual levels simultaneously.

It's not far-fetched; it's been the deepest dream of human kind on all the continents in all the ages of man: Tantric sex, Taoist sex, the Platonian ideal of finding your literal other half and experiencing completion, etc. On Roswell, it is expressed in the metaphor of having a "connection" with each other, and I sure DO hope we get to explore that part of "the alien mythology"! Because if it's anywhere near as connected as FutureMax seemed to think it was, "I gots to know!"

Remember he said that after the "Night of Gomez" he and Liz were "cemented" and that they were "inseparable"? So apparently the dreams of the two worlds are not so different after all. It would be nice to see Roswell come back to that theme - - of loving at first despite differences, and then even more because of them, bridging the chasms and connecting on a cosmic level.

I'll go quietly . . .

I get the distinct feeling that K'var and the skins aren't so much eager to have it themselves (though again, it would be useful) as they are to deny it to Max and his supporters on the home world.

I see what you mean... but I was kind of relating it to the "sword in the stone" version of the Arthurian tales. Arthur proved that he was the rightful heir by taking possession of Excalibur... That it was supposed to be a "magical" sword is the stuff of legends, and that's the point I'm trying, (in my own simple-minded way) to make. I do think the granalith does have some sort of actual power, but the way Nicholas referred to the "Royal Four" (he said something about their legendary status) made me think that the granalith had also gained that sort of legendary status among the people. I don't think Khivar wants it for that reason... I think he wants it because he DOES understand that it has some kind of actual awesome power.

I think the five points on the V represent the 4 podsters plus one - Liz. Not the five planets. Each of the planets have their own rulers so why would that be the symbol of Max's planet? Does each planet's ruler have the same symbol etched on their brains?

About the Granilith/ Excalibur thing: others could rule without it, but they would not have a unified, cooperative kingdom without the confidence of the subjects that they had the True King. NOT a god/ king, necessarily (that's not what I was implying above), but a ruler believed to have both spiritual and temporal power.

K'var is very eager to get his hands on it - - I think it has both symbolic (iconic) and actual signficance. (Both spiritual and temporal power.) It's not just for decoration, and we know thanks to FutureMax that it has tremendous power.

The Arc of the Covenant (think Bible, think Indiana Jones) had tremendous religious significance, but when it was scaled and recreated, it was found to be - - a power source. Turns out when you take two boxes, one slightly smaller and set inside the other, both lined with metal, you get - - a battery. A very powerful battery. The university which had recreated it had to dismantle it because of the charge that kept growing, which would zap anyone who got near it, just as the legends told.

Thank you for the post on the technology of possession. Your point about the lack of a "time difference" between parties does suggest that there is something nearby that aids in the possession.

I am actually still trying to absorb everything you pointed out.

This goes back to Meet the Dupes: but the two episodes (MTD and MitC) are so closely related. Would the death of the red star, which seems to be unnatural, provide a power source for the "energy transfer" needed for alien possession? I hope that this idea is not too strange-- I also think you may have something with the bermuda triangle reference.

I'm off to post something on the rerun of SAB thread, if I can find it.

No you're not! thanks for asking because that confused me too!!

And it bothers me too that Tess calls the shapeshifter Nasedo: She pretty much adopted calling Nasedo as soon as she heard the name. If she's lived with him for 10 years, surely she called him something else. She called him daddy at one point, but that was probably a cover.

1) Tess has known him by a lot of bogus names and phony identities; she says she's moved around a lot, and so she's had to get used to dropping one identity and assuming a new one. Maybe she finds it a relief to have a sort of core name. Nacedo does mean "visitor", which is kind of generic, fitting for someone who shifts constantly.
2) She uses Nacedo because it's a name that the other podsters understand (not to mention us in the audience). Tess really wants to fit in and belong.
3) Maybe the mentality for season 2 is that we in the audience have a short attention span, and that this way we'll be able to follow what's going on. They're supposedly pitching to teens, but I think they have a way-too-low idea of what teens think about.

I prefer to think it's one of the first two.

I don't know if I have an answer-- the dissatisfaction you feel probably steams from the fact the we know so little about the background of Nasedo/Tess. We have a lot of speculations.

I would guess that situation 1) is the correct answer. It seems to me that if Tess had a "solid" different name for Harding, she would have taught it to the podsters. Afterall, she knows Harding the best.

Tess does say that she and Harding were always moving around, hiding themselves. She could just be in the habit with each move, new name.

I feel like I contradicted myself with the prior post, but I see what you're saying.

Tess also has a desire to fit in and be accepted. (In M2TM she tells Nacedo: You're NOT my family! Max, Michael, and Isabel ARE!)

And with all that moving around and learning new identities, she's learned to pick up the local lingo, I'm sure, and lots of other "ingratiate yourself with the locals" techniques.

(Like the particularly grating habit she has of eavesdropping and jumping with both feet into the middle of other people's conversations!)

One of the sources of bitterness about this season, for me, is the way they've just dropped all that lovely stuff from the Final 6 eps of Season One - - all those great clues that all was not well with the Hardings, that they weren't the Cleavers!

But as for her adopting the name Nacedo, as BadMax said in M2TM: That's the least of our worries! Or as Michael said (quiz: which ep?): I'm trying to figure out which problem to panic over!

(Ans. I think: TLV, boys room at school. Aw, heck, now I gotta go check ...)

Okay, I'll admit it. I'm not so quick on the uptake and I should have studied harder in science. Kzinti_Killer, what's FTL stand for?

Max seems very concerned with people being used against their will or without their permission. When Rath described to him the "temp" phenomenon, he asked several questions and described it as "possession." Last season in Sexual Healing, when Michael urged him to "pursue avenues" with Liz and said, "I don't see the problem," Max angrily replied, "The problem is treating someone I care about like a thing, to be used."

I wonder if this is a hint of what went on back in the past on the homeworld - - certainly seems indicative of the idealistic, "humanistic" attitude that had Brody/ Laryk shaking his head. Or an indication of things yet to come?

Could be an interesting issue, more genuine than the constant, artificial Michael- at- Max's- throat thing they keep trying to whip some life into. Stimulating to mind and imagination.

Anyway, I posted this on the Liz thread, but it should probably go here: Now that we know bringing someone back gives them powers, we have a new possible motive for the shooters in the Pilot.

Also, there's lots of debate about whether it's "bringing somebody back" that actually changes them - - I'm still a believer that Liz was a special case because of the link, and the love, between her and the healer.

But it sure makes Ava's statement puzzling, then... all the more reason for gnashing our teeth that the episode was ended so tidily - and abruptly - in time for our Christmas miracle episode.

It's seen more often in science-fiction discussions than in science classes: FTL = faster than light.

Surely there are other town names they could have picked or made up, which do not include the word "summit"?

And when people are "gathered" in a sense, from other galaxies, the word summit is - - too small? It could be called something like a "planetary convergence?

So are we to infer a "clue" here, or are we "reading into" things again, as the producers tell us?

(The podsters were very casual about this, even though it's not a term or usage one really hears every day, or uses conversationally.)

But if anything they do this season is leading to anything else, it would have to mean it was a clue that Nicholas & Co. (the skins from C. Summit) were rigging things at the meeting of the Big Five.

Hey, bet they didn't know how close they'd come to being prophetic! Should have had their "summit" in Florida, would have fit right in!

Hottest guy:

Cutest girl
always and 4eva

I haven't seen season 1, but base on season 2 I thought those peep. are cutest and hottest. Couldn't really decide whose cuter Maria or Liz, but Maria is higher than Liz about 10%.

Again, with the Granolith: as a matter of fact, I don't think Twilonians know all that it can do. It may work at random, or not at all. They don't have the knowledge to work it, only that it is and that it does, at its convenience! Hence the awe! And this is where Liz comes in! Since the orb called her, has her signature if you will, and is acting as a remote control for the Granolith(it was buried less than one mile away from it!), then, I expect the big G will recognize her when she is in proximity. I hope it starts buzzing or vibrating when she visits it the first time! Max is the owner or Guardian, Tess may be a projection that protects it, but Liz is the key to open it and operate it.

BTW, K-K, could Twilonians be tapping into a Earth generator already in place, built by Earthlings? I have always suspected the steam coming out of the manholes all around NYC streets... and, GraceKel: all telescopes on the 86th floor Observatory at the Empire State Bldg., look that way! Those little aliens have been looking around for a long time!

The story of Oedipus:
When Oedipus wa sborn an oracle told his mother that he would kill his father and marry his mother so she sent him away to be disposed of. He was not killed but raised by a different family and did not know h

It just occured to me that the energy usage cuts both ways. If sending the signal gulps down huge amounts of energy, then the return signal must also. If the reciever/transmitter on this end is entirely parasitic, then they have the means of transferring gigawatts worth of energy instantaneously across space. If it isn't parasitic on the homeworld end, then somewhere on Earth, or in near Earth space, there's one hell of a generator setup. Where is it? And why haven't the locals noticed? Presumably either way would kick up a fuss in the local electromagnetics. For me, my vote goes to the Bermuda Triangle. The home of alien Con. Ed. *g*

Do it the easy way: write it in Notepad, or your favorite text editor. Then, copy it to the "clipboard", and Paste it into the reply window. Works like a charm! I've got a mega-reply going at the moment, that I may not post until tomorrow. "Claims..."

About energy: A space probe does not have a lot of energy available to its radio. We beam a powerful signal to it, and use a power-hungry radio telescope to recieve, collect, and amplify the return signal. Perhaps the "resources" that they are "chewing through" are radio telescope minutes as much as kilowatt-hours?

OTOH, if you want to hide equipment that is power-hungry, where better than NYC? There is a big power grid to tap into, plenty of room to hide it, and water to carry away the waste heat from its operation. I conjecture that the alien "temp agency" has an installation in NYC, in FTL contact with Twilo; and local connections (which require less energy) to a roster of possessable humans. This would explain "why NYC" instead of Roswell, or New Delhi. The local connections may work better at close range, so the hosts are summoned as if by post-hypnotic suggestion, and once close to the "temp agency" office can be possessed.

Good question; illuminating answers to other questions.

As for copper, there was an important, top secret government Project that had two different kinds of "copper". "Honest to G. copper" was real copper. "Copper" was code for uranium, as in atomic bombs. That Project also had a NYC connection, if I recall corectly. Hmmm.

Didn't Einstein prove that FTL travel was impossible? (Got to use that acronym now that I know what it means!) It seems I remember reading that somewhere, maybe in a Stephen Hawkins' book? There was an example like: if you are on a train going at the speed of light and you take a step forward while in that train, are you going faster than the speed of light? I think the answer was that you couldn't. Again, the bigger pictures in science confuse me - fascinate me - but confuse me, nonetheless.

Also, are there really new theories in quantum mechanics that may make time travel seem like a distant possibility?

Sorry to sound so much like a dufus here. Really, I'm pretty good in English... 8)

Ree99

re why Tess calls her protector Nasedo.
The "visitor" picked up that name from the Mesaliko and his time on the reservation. Perhaps he, himself, started calling himself found it easier to stick to one name in the midst of all of the identity changing. Or maybe his real name is one of those unpronounceable in our language things.

Lorrilei1960: You could be correct. But I tend to think in terms of technology rather than the mystical. I'm not saying that this doesn't apply though. As you pointed out, the alien delegates were quite flummoxed by the fact that K'var didn't have the Granolith. Which tells us that there is considerable prestige to having it, and that K'var had let them believe that he had it all this time. Thus adding legitimacy to his position.

One thing puzzles me though. And it probably puzzled them too. Presumably the thing has some uses. Awesome ones. Which would have predictable and very visible effects. Like if it's a transporter of some sort, you could drop assasins into your rival's bedroom. Or some such. Assume they believed that K'var has had it all this time. The threat must have been driving them nuts. As in "He can destroy us all anytime he wants. Why doesn't he? What's his game?" I wonder if it ever occurred to them that the thug simply didn't have it? Or, having it, couldn't use it? Is being a royal a prerequisite for using it? The Skins didn't seem to think so. If K'var's rivals ever suspected that he was sans Granolith, they obviously were to chicken to take the only sure route to finding out. All out war.

Qfanny: Good God! I never considered that! Destroying a star to power their communications? This requires thought. Curiously I've seen that idea in a lot of SF. It seems excessive, but without a few more hints and snippets about alien tech to go on, I can't guess. If they require that kind of power, what's their annual energy budget like? All I have to go on is Max's intuition that the nova was significant. The question is, was he sensing something real? Remembering something from his previous incarnation? Or was he responding to the dumptruck load of inner turmoil he was carrying.

Liz may have accomplished FM's wishes, but doing so threw Max for a loop. Screwed up his head big time. The key question is, how much were his intuitions worth at that moment.

Regarding the red star. It depends of the size of the star. A decade ago there was a supernova that drove the astronomers nuts because it was a blue giant that popped. Supposedly a star in it's infancy. Supernova 1987a I believe it was....

Bluecornmoon: Hmmm, check out my post to L1960 first. Watching Dune brings something to mind. The wrangling that brought Max down could be akin to what brought down Leto Atriedes. In other words, friendship not withstanding, in politics you have no "friends". Only associates and allies, who will cut your throat in a New York second if it's to their advantage. Even if they *do* like you. Come to think of it, Michael's refusal to betray Max seemed to be mind boggling to the Skins. Which suggests that it is outside the norm of their experience. So much for the morals of an older species.

As for tapping an Earthside human power grid, the impression I got was that the drain would be considerable. And therefore noticable. The main thrust of the alien presence on Earth is secrecy. Causing brownouts every time you phone home would seem to be counterproductive. So unless the writers throw in something about a brownout somewhere in New York, I'd have to say no.

Reggie: Good point on hiding their equipment in New York. The city must generate one hell of a lot of electromagnetic background noise. Hiding in plain sight so to speak.

Again, without more hints about alien tech, I'm limited to wild ass guesses based half on existing science, and half on what other SF writers have done. That being the case, my guess is that the average space probe's power usage compares with an FTL com system's power usage about the way a 9 volt battery would compare with the power output of Hoover dam. You're right about the time vs kilowatt hours thing though. Again, my WAG favors power over time.

Ree99 & Shapeshifter: You have to understand something. I'm more of an afficianado of science than anything else. Caring for a mentally ill family member for decades has left me unable to pursue formal education much beyond highschool. *sigh* Sad. Especially since I'm employed by a University in their IT department. *g* What science I have is what I've soaked up by osmosis in the course of a long and evil life. That being said....

Einstein's work indicates that, as a hypothetical space vehicle approaches lightspeed, it's mass will increase. Requiring more fuel to accelerate it, thus increasing it's mass still further, requiring still more fuel, and so on...ad nauseum. The result being that light speed is theoretically unreachable.

Now, there's an astronomy grad student I once met that claimed that the lightspeed barrier is broken in the vicinity of the singularity in a blackhole. Since the gravity there is so overwhelming that not even light can escape, gravitational acceleration is demonstrated to exceed lightspeed. He claimed to have a mathematical proof, but I don't have enough high math to judge.

All this is irrelevant really. As SF writers have been ignoring, sidestepping, and hoodwinking Einstein's traffic cops for a long time. Roswell is no different. Warp drive, sub-space, hyper-drive, call it what you will, the aliens have a way around the lightspeed barrier. If they didn't, the whole storyline would collapse. It follows that if they have FTL transport, they have FTL communications. How is a matter of conjecture. But have it they do.

With regard to time travel, Hawking's work in quantum mechanics seems to suggest that it's possible. But Hawking thinks that there's a sound reason why it isn't. That being, no time traveling tourists. We should have some sort of evidence of such by now. No time travelers mean no time travel. Q.E.D.

LoL Funny, as an SF freak, time travel and alternate timelines fascinate the hell out of me. So let's bat a few things around.

Time was always assumed to be linear. That being the case, the grandfather paradox proves that time travel doesn't work. This being that if you travel back and scragg your grandfather before he sires your father, you won't be born to travel back and scragg your grandfather. But if he lives, you will be born, and travel back to scragg him...etc.

To allow time travel, time cannot be linear. Multiple lines have to exist. Which leads to two possiblities.

a) You travel back and kill your grandfather. Then return home to find that nothing has changed. Because all you've done is create a timeline in which some maniac killed grandpa. But since it isn't *your* line, the net effect is zero.

or

b) You kill grandpa, go home, and find a world in which you exist without antecedents, while the original timeline in which the old gent lived goes on...without you in it.

You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Well, I hope that I haven't missed anything. If I have, feel free to beat me about the head with a crowbar. I'll behave. *g* Night everyone.

BTW, I found that scene that was bothering me...it wan't from Harvest, but at the end of Wipe Out. I'm hoping that the picture from the screen caps or at least the link will appear below. Any ideas why Max seems so preoccupied with the kid on the skateboard (or scooter)?

[img]http://www.crashdown.com/screencaps/207/207-243_thumb.jpg[img]

I think the general assumption was that the kid on the scooter was Nicholas (same clothes). Our "heads-up" that we'd be seeing him again.

Kzinti-Killer, I've really been enjoying your posts. Keep up the good work.

SF

Thanks

Moon