Happy Posting

With LSS out of town, I agreed to start the thread. Let's hope I can live up to your expectations, and possibly exceed them. Here are some topics I think may be of interest. I am taking a risk by posting this before I see the episode. At any rate, my feeling is that this episode will be huge for science, and I trust that we all will have things to say about it. Here's what I'm looking for when I watch tonight. Hopefully, I can get the ball rolling as well as LSS does each week.

The Duplicates
Who are the duplicates or perhaps even more importantly, what are the duplicates? Are they hybrids just like Max, Isabel, Michael and Tess or are they second generation clones with our podsters being the originals? If the duplicates truly are duplicates, then would this prove that personality is a function of nature? Is the Royal Four's too human status the result of nature or is it the result of nuture?

And on a rhetorical level, how does the presence of the Dupes challenge the podster's conception of self identity? Here you have someone whose soul and body has been duplicated, yet their personalities differ quite a bit.

Names and Places
Zan, Vilondra, Rath, and Ava were the names of the podster's original selves. How did the Dupes know this information and our podsters did not? And why would the Dupes be informed of the Council Meeting instead of the podster's themselves? Appartantly, information about home is on a need to know basis. Did the lack of information protect the podsters or will this undermind them in the end? Is this part of the genetic programming or is this the effects of nature v nurture?

There has long been speculation on why the Roswell vicinity was chosen for the pod chamber. The radiactivity from the nuclear tests done in the 50's may have hindered the devices used to search for the Royal Four. Why was New York City chosen for the adoptive home of the Duplicates?

The Red Star
O.K. Folks. I almost overlooked this one. Here we have a tie in to Season One. Remember the visions Liz got in Sexual Healing of the Whirlwind Galaxy and her seeing a red star? Mr. Seligman told Liz in SH that a red star wasn't bright enough to see. Therefore, how could Mr. Seligman came back today and know about a red star dying, and pinpoint its exact time of death? It takes years for the star's light to reach Earth. We wouldn't know that the source is burned out until the light stop being viewed. This doesn't seem very factual to me.

Blips
There were two blips that were monitored by Brody. One blip was in New York City. The other blip was in Roswell. How are these blips associated with the Red Star, if at all. If the NYC blip was to contact the Duplicates, then was the second Roswell blip to contact the podsters? Or someone near the podsters? Who would it be?

A Nagging Loose End
When I first heard the storyline for meet the Dupes, I was upset that the other podsters were in fact doubles for the Royal Four. I rather liked the idea that there were eight, not two sets of the four. But then I remembered Mommogram's message, having never understood it before:
quote:....your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials...

Perhaps its just me, but did Mommy explain to the podsters about the duplicates back on May 14th? And are the duplicates suppose to follow the same destiny mandate as the podsters? They are certainly giving it a go.

Let's hear it ladies and gents.

PS: The other SciFi threads can be found at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/SciFiThreads/

1. The NY podsters had a different "Four Squared" symbol tatooed on their arms. inside four pods of the symbol were dots, not commas like the NM podsters. I would take this to mean that the SSers differentiated between the two sets, and that although they looked identical, the SSers did not concider them identical - otherwise, the sets would have had identical symbols.
2. The NY podsters knew about the existance of the NM podsters, but nothing else about them Why would they have been told, but the NM podsters weren't told about the other set? Michael found out by shear chance from the retired officer. He didn't even know they were identical.
3. The NY podsters knew who they themselves were supposed to be (King, Volondra, etc). Who told them the things Lonnie said she had heard?
4. The NY podsters had a high school year book from W. Roswell H.S. Who gave it to them?
5. Although the morals of the two sacs were opposites, certain qualities remained the same.
a. Max/Zan - Cautious - no bold moves. Trust in, and control of those around him seems instinctual.
b. Michael/Rath - Impulsive - acts too quickly without thinking. "Bucks under saddle" - questions and rebels against authority of Max/Zan.
c. Tess/Ava - Loyal - in both pods seems the most willing to follow the leadership of Max/Zan. Also seems like the "odd man out" of both pod sets.
d. Isabel/Lonnie - Peacemaker between Max/Zan and Michael/Rath ('til Lonnie chose sides). Good insight into others.
6. "Lonnie" was short for Valondra(sp?). Had she only recently taken this name? Did she grow up with it? If so, who gave her this name? Were the others also named after their original selves? Was this done to set them up as decoys, or would the NMans have also had these names if they had not wondered away from the pod chamber? Are their names also shortened versions of their original names? (Hmmm... Zantac, Tarzan, Zanthophyll ...)

[b]Ruling families of the five planets
This now explains the five points of the V when the five healing stones were put in the cave drawings. The fact that the biological awakening of the podsters was timed to the alining of a V constellation means it is somehow symbolic in maybe even a religious manner for the Royal Four Was Max's planet and his rule symbolized by the center point with the others flanking him, like the leader of a flock of geese? Are there also five different species? SSers, Skins, short invisibles, and others? What catagory does the dead eyeball fall into? Are the podsters for sure of the SSer race? When Nasedo said that "The fate of an entire race ..."(depended on the Royal Four), what race was he talking about? One of the five alien races, or humans? What of the hand-held detectors that are five-sided? Is this also symbolic of the five planets? And why did Brody's devise attack Michael? Are the podsters from different races? Was Tess an arranged marriage with another ruling family? Could the 4+1 symbolism mean the other four planets and Max's?

Usually here on Earth, countries with monarchies that actually rule are not concidered to be free countries. Max "deciding the fate of entire armies by the flip of a coin" does not sound flattering - especially to Max who was raised in the United States. Absolute power corrupts absolutely? He may fight to regain his throne, only to set his people free - from himself. Or are the ruling families something much more? Are they a species all to themselves? Are they peaceful, keeping the planets' populations from warring? Are the ruling families spoiled, powerhungry, self-serving, and greedy? Or are they more like humble servants that devote their lives to seeing that their planets live in peace and prosperity for the greater good of all? Maybe they were even genetically engineered to be rulers by people that needed them to serve in a particular capasity.

This gets back to a question I asked last week : Were the podsters engineered with their original personalities, complimentary personalities, or random personalities?
a. Is Max cautious and careful because he was this way in a past life and this is a natural trait?Or ... Is this a trait the SSers programmed into him because he rushed to judgements in a past life and made mistakes?
b. Is Michael rebellious and impulsive because he was naturally this way before? Or ... Was Michael altered because in his past life he didn't question his king or argue to make him see reason?
c. Are their old personallities going to resurface with old memories? Will they have split personalities that need to be integrated, or will one personality overpower another? Maybe this is a way of balancing the personalities and they will blend.

Brody was showing Max the blips from supposed attemps at contact. One blip we saw is NY, and this was explained by the NY podsters talking about the invitation to the Summit. There was a second blip, which was carefully covered by Brody's arm so we couldn't see it, but it was west of Texas, actually much closer than NY. So why was he so excited about the NY blip instead of the one close to Roswell? Was Max also being sent an invitation, but not recieving it? Was it being intercepted?

Although we SUPPOSEDLY had a mass incineration of skins, I do not think they are gone, or that there are not other enemies besides them. What if they found out about the NY podsters and realized they were corrupt, amoral, and pretty much evil themselves? What if they wanted them, rather than the goodie-two shoes NM podsters to go to the Summit and do something for them? Maybe just discredit themselves and the SSers? If Lonnie and Rath are working for the enemy, Max and Tess could be walking into a multiple trap.

The bad guys keep asking for the granolith - not granolithS. That means there might be only one, and the NM Royal Four have it.

About the purpose of the GRANOLITH :
When Courtney's skin was dying, she said the granolith could save her.
A granolith is like a stepping stone.
What if the granolith is like a "Terra-forming" instrument? (I haven't read the boards since last Monday and even then it was very limited, so if I stole someone else's idea, sorry.) Anyhow, what if the granolith is like the machinery at the end of "Total Recall", which changes the atmosphere into a breathable one? The Skins die when exposed to our atmosphere. What if they want to change it (killing all terrestrial life), so they can live here? What if this is what the Royal Four were killed over? Max refused to let them use it? The SSers honored his wishes and sort of burried it with him for him to use in his next life like an Egyptian pharaoh? Is the granolith a stepping stone for a Skin invasion? Would the granolith have saved Courtney by giving her breathable air that her own body could use without needing her "skin"?

Two questions were cleared up after having dangled since "Skin and Bones" and "Ask Not": Max does still work at the UFO Museum, and he still is seeing a shrink. (And his dad is still alive!)

Too bad the shrink isn't an SSer he can talk to - Max seems headed for a breakdown. Lonnie was quickly able to figure out how to manipulate him. Lonnie and Rath both view him as a vulnurable "head case". Too bad his own friends and family can't see what the strangers can. Instead of recognizing Max's need for help, they get angry at him, making him feel that much more isolated, rejected, and paranoid. Lonnie and Rath knew what he was afraid of and what he needed to hear. It is very telling that Max is taking Tess with him to NY. She has been the only supportive and loyal podster of his own set lately. A far cry from where they were last spring.

The Shapeshifters[b]
1. Pierce said, "Four were captured. Two dead, two alive. One escaped". It still bugs me that Pierce didn't say, "There were four". It sounds like there were more than four, but some got away, so only four were captured. I also would not say four were "captured" if two of them were picked up off the ground. You don't capture the dead. Just poor sportsmanship. Anyhow, [b] there might have been more than two survivors.
2. We saw two SSers (or silver bioluminescent critters we are led to believe were SSers) in '47 that were running loose on the base days after the crash, and apparently got the sacks to safety before getting caught. Then they were both caught, and one eventually escaped (Nasedo). Nasedo got to the NM podchamber in time to scoop up Tess, but missed the other three. What of the other sack's pods? He obviously didn't raise them too, or even spend much time in NY, because he was constantly moving. Nasedo seems to have been strict with Tess and raised her decently. Surely he had nothing to do with the NYers. Who was there for the other sack's podsters? Did they wander out alone too and get put in foster homes? Are we to believe that Nasedo had charge of not four, but eight little kids and lost SEVEN of them?

These questions popped up :
1. Who raised the NY podsters?
2. Who told the NYers about :
a. the four square symbol (although their's is different).
b. the Volondra story. (I don't think SSers would have laid this on her.)
c. the existance of the other set of the Royal Four. (They knew of them, but not about them, as if they had only recently found out also.)
d. the Summit meeting.
3. Who gave the NYers the year book?
4. If there were only two orbs and one granolith, then are the NM podsters the ones intended to rule and the NYers are the back ups or defectives? BTW - it was obvious Lonnie was lying about the "defective set" being the NMans.

Liz having no flashes from Rath Liz has had flashes from Max (she was open to this) and Nasedo - who she thought was Max (so she was also open to it). She was not open to Rath, so she got no flashes. It would be interesting to see what she could get from someone other than Max if she was open and receptive to it.

Let's talk science. I have almost given up on the writers getting an education. This week they threw around some more technical space vocabulary. I'll bet they were proud of the "main sequence" referrence, but they didn't seem to understand what it meant.
They were right that red giants are post-main sequence, but ...
1. Post-main sequence means they are dying, NOT in their prime.
2. Red giants are not in their prime, they are dying.
3. Only red giants go supernova
I hope they don't make it too significant like a recent message, because a star going supernova within 100LY of us would put life on earth in danger. That means the star had to be well over 100 LY away, which means the light left the dying star over 100 years ago. If it was a signal from aliens, it was sent over 100 years ago. Maybe Max did it himself in his past life?

Ominous music playing while the NYers were driving to Roswell:
Rhinestone Cowboy - "...nice guys get washed away like the snow and the rain."

(....)
This gets back to a question I asked last week : Were the podsters engineered with their original personalities, complimentary personalities, or random personalities?
a. Is Max cautious and careful because he was this way in a past life and this is a natural trait?Or ... Is this a trait the SSers programmed into him because he rushed to judgements in a past life and made mistakes?
b. Is Michael rebellious and impulsive because he was naturally this way before? Or ... Was Michael altered because in his past life he didn't question his king or argue to make him see reason?
c. Are their old personallities going to resurface with old memories? Will they have split personalities that need to be integrated, or will one personality overpower another? Maybe this is a way of balancing the personalities and they will blend.
Palomino: I knew you would be watching for this! The situation that the podsters find themselves in seems like a controlled environment akin to that of a labortory. Here we have the real possibility of looking at how environment influences the personality. And based on your observations, they do infact, act the same. They look alike and think alike. Even Lonnie notices the similiarities on how Zan/Max thinks. I am glad to see the writers answered your question.

Did you get the feeling that Tess and Ava might be switched? Neither seems to fit in with their assigned group. (Sorry, sorry, no switched Tess theories-- just a question.)
quote:Originally posted by Palomino:
Ruling families of the five planets
This now explains the five points of the V when the five healing stones were put in the cave drawings. The fact that the biological awakening of the podsters was timed to the alining of a V constellation means it is somehow symbolic in maybe even a religious manner for the Royal Four Was Max's planet and his rule symbolized by the center point with the others flanking him, like the leader of a flock of geese? Are there also five different species? SSers, Skins, short invisibles, and others? What catagory does the dead eyeball fall into? Are the podsters for sure of the SSer race? When Nasedo said that "The fate of an entire race ..."(depended on the Royal Four), what race was he talking about? One of the five alien races, or humans? What of the hand-held detectors that are five-sided? Is this also symbolic of the five planets? And why did Brody's devise attack Michael? Are the podsters from different races? Was Tess an arranged marriage with another ruling family? Could the 4+1 symbolism mean the other four planets and Max's?
As soon as Rath said the five ruling planets I immediately thought of the five stars in the "V" constellation. I'm glad you posted your thoughts before I did, because these questions and statements are excellent.
quote:Originally posted by Palomino:
The Shapeshifters
1. There might have been more than two survivors.
2. Nasedo got to the NM podchamber in time to scoop up Tess, but missed the other three. What of the other sack's pods? (...)Surely he (Nasedo) had nothing to do with the NYers. Who was there for the other sack's podsters? Did they wander out alone too and get put in foster homes? Are we to believe that Nasedo had charge of not four, but eight little kids and lost SEVEN of them?
What did you think of the duplicates ability to shapeshift? Tess made a big deal about her not being able to do it in Max to the Max. Can the Dupes do it because they are --more alien? Or is this something that the podsters haven't picked up yet? What was meant by defective? How can you be too human in a scientific term? I agree. I think someone had to raise the duplicates. I doubt that 6 year olds could find there way to NY on there own.
quote:Originally posted by Palomino:
If it was a signal from aliens, it was sent over 100 years ago. Maybe Max did it himself in his past life?
Okay, this seemed strange to me too. In fact, the whole red star dying and the issue of timing seemed a little too convinent. But there is a question of time in the Roswell storyline. FM traveled to the past. The Skins were able to manipulate the time dimension in WipeOut. When Brody said that he was losing track of time, and the fact the gang did lose track of time, it seems to me that there is something more going on here than what is being told.

Palomino: Thanks for the great post! It was truly a delight to read!

I liked Brody's comment about "What do you think of our new president." I am sure it wasn't suppose to be funny, but it was.... If only science could explain our election process.

At first I believe Lonnie that the NM podsters were the dups because they were to human. Made sense, but after thinking about it I realized that since the NM podsters had the granolith, I believe they are the true orginals. Maybe that's what they were trying for, more humanity in the clones and didn't get enough in the NY podsters or maybe the second generation clones were not as good as the first.

Just as the NM podsters had Nasedo, I'm sure that the NY podsters had a protector, but unlike the NM four the NY four were raised by their protector just as Tess was raised by Nasedo and therefore have more information on themselves. In Summer of '47, Hank saw two aliens come when he was with the two sacks of four. They were Nasedo and ??? (the NY four's protector)

I also caught the part about five ruling families and believe yes there will be five different types of aliens. I sure there must of been some cross over between the planets with different races live on and marrying each other. I don't think we will be able to assume all the other aliens are "evil" just as Courtney was on the pod squads side.

Max was referred to as the beloved leader many times by the mom-o-gram and the skins so I can't believe that he would have been so cavalier as to flip a coin to decide fates. I think he must have been much like he is now in his previous life. Just as I don't believe Isabelle/Volandra truly betrayed her brother. I think when the truth comes out she'll have been in love with Kivar but tricked by him into betrayal.
And yes, I agree that Max and Tess were an arranged marriage between planets for the sake of peace. If there are five different planets and ruling families, some must be allies.

On the nature v. nurture front, I wonder if we'll find out more about the NY crew's background. Or how much/little of the differences between the sets could have been caused by the leaking pod.

I wouldn't give up on "Twilo" yet. We still haven't heard of "Antar", this Council, or any such. Actually, it sounded more like a Mob summit, at which they'll make King Zan an offer he can't refuse. Perhaps this is just the way the Dupes phrased it?

Also, I'm thinking that the Dupes are decoys; lesser copies to be sacrificed if need be to save the Real Royal Four. They have the alien info that would be expected of the R4, and possibly even the original personalities. "These kids from New Mexico- who are they? Nobody of interest." But why don't they have a nanny to keep an eye on them? (Tic-tac?)
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There has long been speculation on why the Roswell vicinity was chosen for the pod chamber. The radiactivity from the nuclear tests done in the 50's may have hindered the devices used to search for the Royal Four. Why was New York City chosen for the adoptive home of the Duplicates?

Maybe the stench would keep the EA away?
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The Red Star
O.K. Folks. I almost overlooked this one. This doesn't seem very factual to me.

No, it isn't. <sigh> They need a science consultant, badly. Maybe next year. (Where do I send my resume?)
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Blips
As I posted elsewhere, if they have call waiting, I bet their orbs are flashing.

A Nagging Loose End
When I first heard the storyline for meet the Dupes, I was upset that the other podsters were in fact doubles for the Royal Four. And are the duplicates suppose to follow the same destiny mandate as the podsters? They are certainly giving it a go.

I think that their personallities are complementary to our podsters in some ways. Good vs. evil, that sort of thing. Interestingly, Ava seems to have a conscience, and to be Good. All those Tess-haters must be rejoicing!

Hi Kristine888

Welcome to the SciFi threads. When you say the Duplicates are the opposites of the Podsters, what do you mean exactly? Do you mean their morals? The fact that they caused the fruit stand to tip, Lonnie robs the till, and Rath and Lonnie killing Zan certainly makes these guys untrustworthy and unlikable. But I bet there's a story behind it. There has to be a reason for their behavior, and I doubt that it's tied into their genetic makeup: They are suppose to be the same as the podsters. How do you explain it?

[b]The Duplicates
Who are the duplicates or perhaps even more importantly, what are the duplicates? Are they hybrids just like Max, Isabel, Michael and Tess or are they second generation clones with our podsters being the originals? If the duplicates truly are duplicates, then would this prove that personality is a function of nature? Is the Royal Four's too human status the result of nature or is it the result of nuture?
- I think the more human the podsters the less likely they are to make the same mistakes. Take Lonnie for example, she ended up betraying her brother anyway. Although Rath talks smack, Lonnie seems the one to run the show. Did anyone get the feeling that she was yelling at Zan in the Max/Isabel confrontation? She mentioned that she had to "prove" that she was to be trusted which was a lie.

Welcome to the SciFi threads. When you say the Duplicates are the opposites of the Podsters, what do you mean exactly? Do you mean their morals? The fact that they caused the fruit stand to tip, Lonnie robs the till, and Rath and Lonnie killing Zan certainly makes these guys untrustworthy and unlikable. But I bet there's a story behind it. There has to be a reason for their behavior, and I doubt that it's tied into their genetic makeup: They are suppose to be the same as the podsters. How do you explain it?

Hey QFanny! I thought I would check out this board and I was happy to see you here!

Here's my theory on why the dupes are the way they are. Remember in So47 with the leaking pods? My guess is that the dupes were the leaking pods...and what leaked out of the pods you ask? Perhaps some of their human genetic material?

Proof of this: Nasedo, who is not a hybrid, has no qualms about killing & deceiving. He has basically no humanity. The dupes remind me of that. They lack humanity. IMHO they certainly don't have the same genetic make-up as our podsters -- they are seriously lacking on the human side.

Yup, I'm convinced. They were the leaky pods and what leaked out was some of the human genetic material. I had originally thought it was the alien "essence", but now I'm convinced.

I'm sure I'll be proven wrong, but sometimes it feels good to be sure about a theory - even if it's only for a moment.

Big smiles all around....

{~}:}

Something else that we should consider are the seeming similarities between the Roswell podsters and "the dupes".

~Obviously there's physical similarities (hair/wardrobe aside)... they're identical... but duplicates/clones as opposed to human identical twins; an embryo split in half at a very early stage of development. Same human dna used, but possibly different (or corrupted/defective) programming?

~Max/Isabel and Zan/Lonnie consider themselves siblings.

~Coinciding w/ the Momogram seemingly... Lonnie (King's sister) and Rath (the 2nd) were paired off, lovers. Were Zan & Ava *together*?

~Also coinciding with Momogram and the Ros podsters, the role dispersal. Zan was the leader, Rath the 2nd, Lonnie the King's sister... and then there's Ava. I'm not sure what role she was playing, but I presume she at least *knew* she was Zan's "young bride"... since everyone else seemingly knew their place? She seemed upset he was killed... but upset like a "young bride" whose just witnessed her (beloved?) husband/groom murdered? Didn't seem like it to me.

~It seems both sets of podsters consider Tess/Ava "a fifth wheel" to a certain degree (as someone has mentioned above, can't remember who, so sorry!)

Did "the dupes" also see the Momogram message? I presume they didn't... considering the signal was only read coming out of Roswell? Yet, if they didn't see it, they seemingly followed it's story more closely (or followed it's *orders* more closely?) then that of the podsters that actually SAW the message?

Max/Michael/Isabel are all still reluctant to *follow destiny*... Tess is still the only one really that wants to follow it *to the letter* ... which would seemingly liken her more to "the dupes" then the Roswell podsters. Could Tess/Ava have been switched at some time?

Melodious

Commenting as I read all the thoughts on this episode.

quote:Originally posted by Palomino:
4. The NY podsters had a high school year book from W. Roswell H.S. Who gave it to them?

My immediate response to this is Nasedo, he always was away for a time (ok at the end, but still) After the podsters set off the communicators and saw the mom-o-gram, he could have found the dupes and informed them off all the goings on up to that point and later as he was in DC doing the same thing.

Comment on the 5 planet/alien thing: If you visit the General discussion this is my qoute verbatem

quote:Originally posted by ms_gwyn from General Discussion of Meet the Dupes Thread: It could be that they are the same genitic family just different species...Let me restate that so it can be clearer... Like Homo Sapiens (humans) but different races, like Asians, Caucasians, Africans, etc

I also agree about which set it defective. Obviously "our" four the "real" ones, why else would the granolith be placed in their care and not the others. Why were our four place in NM -- site of the crash and not the others? In order to survive and acumulate to their environment, don't the podsters have to be "too" human?

The red giant information: In some ways the teacher was correct with all the tecnology they have (I understand about Light years), it would be the first time in Human history they would experience a Red Giant going supernova. But my question is Does it have ANYTHING to do with the "Home" planet and the one of the causes for the war?.

To me it looked identical to the star system that Liz saw in SH.

Since I didn't read the Sci-Fi post of Wipe-out I have a question (forgive me if this has already been discussed, which I'm sure it has: Does anyone think that Nicholas is Kavar? He seems so important to the whole mystery to me. If not, is Kavar on Earth and if so, why is he hiding? I got the feeling in Harvest that Nicholas is sort of a second in command to Kavar, but in Wipe Out, I got the impression of my first statment. Which is it?

With all my above theories, one thing doesn't match and I like the idea that others have presented: Ava/Tess switch -- ok it may fit somewhere in my theory: What if Nasadeo did watch over both sets, but saw that the real royals were a little lost and need guidance with their powers and switch them and somehow changed their (Ava/Tess) memories? I'm sure both are at the same level of developed powers, but Tess seems so much more confident and Ava and all the close shots of Ava are way to foreshadowing for this idea NOT to be presented or maybe Tess performed a switch with Ava herself?

My mind is reeling and I'm not making anymore sense, as if I have.

Ciao
Ms. Gwyn

So thanks everyone for your wonderful insights and theories.

The need for timing -- it's the only thing I can think of that explains the very poor science ... (and hence, science fiction).

It's not really Sci-Fi, but does anyone else wonder HOW the Dupes got to NYC in the first place? Who transported them there? And why?

I agree with those who think Tess/Ava were switched somehow.

Duh -- I don't know why I didn't make the connection before about 5 planets/the V constellation. Also the red giant and Liz's SH vision... Great observations!

The need for timing -- it's the only thing I can think of that explains the very poor science ... (and hence, science fiction).

Hi BehrAll

What you say is possible. This will be short..having computer problems. Perhaps inthis ep the supernova may be the symbolic equivalent to star (??supernova) of Bethlehem. The 3 Dupes travel west to find new leader. Can't finish..

I actually thought that last night was a weak episode until I was recruiting someone this morning and all kinds of questions came to mind (quess it was better than I thought -help:

Zan- If he is so powerful according to Rath why did such a simple accident kill him?
Couldn’t he have used some power as self defense?

Ava stayed and Tess went. Is Ava going to be substituted for Tess should something happen to her in NY? This is a really good idea as: The destiny paring will not be valid anymore and The future would have been changed (Future Max's concerns). The downside of this is that if Tess proved to be such a important member of the pod squad, will Tess be able to complete them in the same way?

Two group of podsters - the defectives were too human. Was this just a subjective view? If the differences were actual then I would have to think that it was a result of nature because Lonnie knew that groups were different before they really got the full exposure to the Evans homelife.
If it wasn’t, what does it say about the type of civilation and its people who created them. Which group mirrors the people of Twilo. I couldn’t tell but do similar sets of clones have similar powers? They obviously have similar social structures. And a big why didn’t the monogram tell each group about the other. How did NY know about NM but not visa versa?

Also, if two sets of pods were sent, the “heir and the spare” so to speak, won’t that ultimately set up a power struggle in the future - had to be classic bad planning

Palomino- I’m a big support of Liz’s flashes as being a view into the soul. I agree, why didn’t she get some kind of reaction to Rath’s kiss.

Watching for Brody - think that there is another abduction in his future. Maybe it will have something to do with the summit?

Just love this thread...

9:00 ( WB ) " Roswell ." This show has borrowed from previous sci-fi classic shows so often, by adapting memorable basic premises for its own devices, that it's no longer sensible to think of it as mere coincidence. This well-written, well-acted show already has borrowed interrogation sequences from "The Prisoner" and, only last week, the empty-town idea from "The Twilight Zone." Now, in tonight's show, three of the cast members get to do double duty, portraying somewhat darker Doppelgangers in a double-trouble plot that has been used to memorable effect by "Star Trek," "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" and "Buffy the Vampire Slayer."

What do you think folks? Is the sci fi getting too derivative? Is it at least an interesting revisit to familar plotlines?

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go big or go home

Judging by the length (shortness) of this thread, it looks like I'm not the only one being hogtied by EAs from getting to the board.

A couple of items before I leave for enemy territory (work):
The ending of the scene with Isabel yelling at Max was rather ambiguous; was that intended, or did they get their visual effects out of sync with the words: "Let's get out of these clothes."

I thought the Star Imploding was co-ordinated with Tess's fire bomb. Maybe Maria's Zapping the alien d*** wasn't the only thing that gave Tess a surge; maybe Zan's power transferred to fight the enemies at that moment as well. But Liz certainly sensed it was a sad event (as was the analogy to the brightness of M&L's relationship burning out that Max implied--note: the relationship, *NOT* his feelings). And Ava seemed like she didn't want it (the murder of Zan) to happen, but knew it would. Now it seems like this is what is planned for Max as well. A ransom for a ticket "home," perhaps? Thanks Palomino for the Rhinestone Cowboy significance. It fits here. I was wondering as soon as I heard the tune but couldn't recall words.

I am inclined to think the leaking pods were the NYers--that what leaked out was royal alien aura and ethics. So now both sets are "defective" in different ways.

Okay, more later when I escape.

LOL! I'm one of those English majors. Gotta use that degree for something right?

I think the NY Podsters were sent to NM by the Skins (or some enemy?) to help capture Max and the Royal 4. I think those of you who suggested the enemy are trying to "divide and conquer" were right on the nose. Lonnie shape-shifted into isabelle to stage a fight with Max on purpose to get him to come to NY. However I believe Lonnie was really expressing some true feelings that Isabelle might be hiding. Anyhow the enemies seem to be playing to the podsters weaknesses.
I wonder why Max didn't ASK the NYpodsters about anything like... the name of the planet or what's the granolith for? or how do you know about us? Why was he so willing to trust them?Did Micheal tell Max that they were the supossed backup podsters? (which has to be a lie). And it seems that none of them are who they were in their past lives-they are just shadows of their former selves. Isabelle is no more Vilandra than Max is the leader. I think they need to take that into consideration. Sometimes Max gets way too intense.

Pooh

I thought they were making a statement about their type of shapeshifting. 100% shapeshifters shapeshift clothes and all. The NY dupes could just shapeshift tattoos, jewelry and hair. Since they had to redo their makeup for the last shot, they could easily have had them change their clothes. I thought it was interesting that Vollondra looked genuinely upset that Max was mad at her. It could just have been to keep the audience guessing for a few more seconds, but maybe there's more to it...

My feeling about Lani and Rath was that they were/are basically trying to recreate what happened on the home planet -- that is, they have sold out Xan to throw in their lot with the enemy. Everything points to this: their coldness, their lack of feeling and their unscrupulousness in manipulating those they feel are weak or inferior. And like certain insects or animals they will even turn on their own with an evident lack of guilt or remorse.

I think that just like his original on Antar, Xan was not willing to cede anything to the enemy, so he had to be removed -- assassinated by his sister and second-in-command, both of whom must be in cahoots with others. I think they realize that Max alone stands between them and the success of the evil forces that have gotten a toehold here on earth. They know he is very strong and completely upright -- evidently in a way that Xan wasn't. In this respect I think the N.Y. meeting is an ambush and that they hope to remove their last serious impediment to their ambitions.

For that reason I think the Dupes were the inferior podsters, though it is possible that their progenitors didn't see it that way. Clearly our own more human podsters are the key to foiling evil here on Earth as well as on Antar. It is interesting that the N.Y. podsters evidently paired off as they were intended to. Perhaps the lack of sentiment makes one mate as viable as another? And Rath and Lani seem bonded more by ambition and a shared enjoyment of mayhem rather than any feeling for each other.

Folks here are right in thinking that something doesn't jibe re Tess/Ava. Tess's initial personality was very much like that of the N.Y. podsters and like Nasedo -- calculating and lacking in warmth and feeling. Whereas Ava has seemed shell-shocked, wounded, vulnerable and passive (or was that just deficient acting?) It's understandable that some here would try to explain that by wondering if Tess and Ava got switched, but I think that this arose out of several practical (and more mundane) concerns: In an episode already full of plot and incident and with too many characters to juggle, giving Ava more dialogue and a more forceful personality would have been too much. Plus EdR may not have been up to the task as Heigl, Fehr and Behr certainly were. As far as Tess, she does seem to have softened somewhat this season, but she is mostly a cipher. This character seems more than ever a plot device rather than a real person, and I get the feeling that the writers really don't know what to do with her from episode to episode.

I don't think Ava and Tess were switched. True Ava seems a little meeker, but I suspect that has to due with her nurture, not nature.

Nadsedo as the Dupes protector? True it's possible, but I don't know. For the most part, he travelled with Tess from the point he found her. He didn't leave her alone and unprotected for long periods of time. When would he have time to 'raise' the dupes?

Though I'm not a subscriber to the TicTac theory, that would account for a protector other than Nasedo to raise the Dupes and would account for the Dupes having a W. Ros. high Yearbook. TicTac (according to the theory) was present in Roswell and identified Max. Even so, I think another party is the yearbook culprit. We seem to have plenty of party's planetside for the summit. Exactly when did they arrive and where did they park the spaceship? Is Earth's atmosphere corrosive to them also? 5 planets, similar atmospheres? Multiple time subsets?

Next, Lonnie said something and right now I can't remember to whom, but it was probably Max or Isabel - went something like '...that's when the war was still on...', WAS
being the key word. Is there a ceasefire due to the peace summit, or is the war over? Who won? K'var?

And lastly, Lonnie and Rath Shapeshifting? They changed their hair, their makeup, maybe even the tatoos, but not their clothes. Why not? Nasedo did all over the place. I think what Lonnie and Rath did was akin to Michael changing his fingerprint in WR, and Isabel changing lipstick and nail polish. You'd think that they'd also have the ability to reconfigure the molecular structure of their attire in the same fashion, like Nasedo did to Michael in WR with the wave of his hand. In theory they should be able to do it. And so it begs the question, should they also be able to reconfigure their physical mass, change the size and shape of their features, etc...or is their physical mass an exception in this not-so-"hard"-science scfi series?

I mean, their behaviour was pretty ... amorous, and they were celebrating (sort of).

Okay, back to the sci-fi ...

I am a little concerned about the sci-fi this year. i am glad that it's there, but it is so disconnected. What happened to Grant, Nicholas (or was that the kid in the end of Wipeout)and now this whole summit thing? I just hope that they are going to tie all these things together at the end of the season.

As for the defective pods: i think the defect was Vilandra. Isabel would never betray Max. It has already been proven that Lonni did. Therefore, the Dupe pod is the defective one.

Well, I had to rewatch the episode, because I missed most of it the first time through since I was groaning at their AWFUL AWFUL accents... sigh...

Re: Lanie/Vilandra/Isabel

Interesting when Lanie is talking to Max confessing about Vilandra, she says she's sure Isabel wouldn't betray Max, just as she would never betray Xan. But the fact remains that she did indeed betray Xan. So, history has already repeated itself once. Was this foreshadowing? Will Isabel indeed betray Max? Or is this another Run Lola Run reference... third time's a charm? Will Isabel be the "correct" life and not betray Max?

Re: Tess/Eva

Oh I had a feeling that everyone would think they'd been switched. I don't buy that. But, I don't know if I think that Xan and Eva were romantically involved necessarily. We know she was dedicated to him (she was visably upset by his death and what the other dupes were doing, I think she was just scared and bullied so she went along with them, knowing that ultimately she might be expendable as well). We also see Tess' dedication to Max, she has continually been there for him this season, from Skin and Bones when she told him "I won't let you down" to being there for him in EOTW to now. We know she cares for him. And we are also led to believe that Original Eva loved him as well (via Tess' memories that she stated in Ask Not, which I am inclined to believe, especially in light of Eva's behavior).

It is interesting that Tess, the one character that the mass viewing population doesn't trust is the only one to have been loyal to ALL the podsters. In S&B SHE was the one helping Michael, while Max and he were at each other's throats. In Harvest, SHE was worried about Isabel when she couldn't find her. In WO, SHE was the one to protect all the podsters in the end. She has done nothing but show her loyalty yet everyone STILL questions her...

Re: Max's reaction to Isabel

That was scary. He didn't even give her a chance before he screamed in her face Shut Up. I think Lanie was genuinely taken aback by his reaction. I also think that what Lanie said to Max was VERY valid, she did voice Isabel's concerns and possibly the concerns that she had and never voiced to Xan. I realize that towards the end she WAS trying to make Max mad, but I still can't believe he grabbed for her! Max is getting dangerously close to the breaking point. I thought it was interesting how fast he changed on Isabel, yelling that she had betrayed HIM, when in fact her past life version had betrayed his past life version. Maybe Isabel WAS right to keep it from him. Max seems to be about one episode away from a nervous breakdown...

--KATE

It would have taken a long time to scout earth, develop hybrids to live there, and devise the plan to send them. This would have been done before the skins found out about it and developed their "skin" encounter suits for the earth environment in order to chase down the hybrids. Indeed, the revolution would have been on for a good long time before the Royals became desperate and the two sides even decided on such drastic measures. Add the time it took to scout and select earth and you have even more time passing. The first set of skins probably took 20 years to grow, so the revolution and all its machinations took place a long time ago.

Why did the pods hatch in 1982 instead of another year? Why was the alignment of stars as shown in Sexual Healing chosen as the sign for awakening? I think that it has to do with the exploding Red Giant. The star's explosion was likely a key event in the revolution, and the Royals knew that the light from the explosion would be seen on earth in November 2000. The podsters were hatched in time to be mature and ready to play their part at that time.

Astronomy is science, and a long time science fiction writer like Ronald Moore isn't going to make such a glaring boo-boo as to forget about the time it takes light to travel across space. The communication devises, on the other hand, are science fiction. They can be instantaneous, or at least faster than light. Sighting of the exploding Red Giant was supposed to raise the suspicions of Max and the pod squad that it was connected to them. It worked, as the meeting in the Alien Center showed. Communication with the Royal 4 would be timed to coincide, and would set off the next phase of the incredibly long-termed and complicated plan that has been in motion for well over 100 years, since the time of the explosion or perhaps before.

Or else we just hatched another batch of loose ends.

Any thoughts?

I was wondering, when were we told the name of the planet? Was it during the meeting between Rath and Max? Does anyone have the exact quote?

Also, I've been wondering about Liz's future friend Selena that FM mentioned in EOTW. Perhaps she was one of the SSs who escaped? Or maybe she's a member of one of the other races? Perhaps she imparted some knowledge to the NY pod squad? After all, she figured out how to change the Granolith into a time travel machine... Maybe we'll meet her soon? Just a random thought.

I have always wanted to see Liz and Tess become friends. How about if real Tess switched places with real Ava ostensibly to save the World just as Liz went to bed with Kyle for the same purpose. Now both are about to see the whole thing go down the tubes.

I think this is what I was trying to get at. I guess I didn't word it too well when I had the thought, but it makes sense the way you wrote it. Thanks for the help.

1. Whitaker said that history always repeats itself, and Isabel was afraid that she was destined to betray everyone again. What if the dupes are the one's living out history? Michael was supposed to rise up against Max and Isabel was to betray him (like when they killed Zan) Just a thought

2. I think that Ava and Tess were switched because Ava was almost more softspoken than Tess. Also, Tess has way more advanced powers than the others (at least she did at first which they explained w/ her being raised by nasedo, but the whole apocalyptic inferno in wipeout makes me think she's capable of mega-evil). Maybe Tess and Ava were switched and Ava is the "more human" one. I never did like Tess.

3. Which ones are the defectives, and how do they know for sure?

4. Why did the dupes no so much more about their past?

I'm awash in a sea of confusion! But I still think roswell is epic! ( I was so excited that they said that, because I actually say that alot!)

The Dupes knew of the pod squad, but not vice versa. When semi questioned about this by Michael, Lonnie tells him that they made two sets. That one set was a “reject” version… too human. Michael assumes that it’s the Dupes and Lonnie corrects him (Careful, I’m about to go on a tangent here).

Which leads me to a whole slew of questions. Judging by what we saw… the Dupes didn’t have a “Nasedo”. I have to doubt that Nasedo himself would have contacted them without Tess knowing. She seemed as unaware of these others as the rest of them. So, how did they know all they knew? Did they have a Mom-O-Gram as well?

Now, I can see both sides of the “You’re the rejects” argument. My thought is this however: Nasedo told the Pod Squad that he was supposed to protect the Royal Four. Did the Dupes not need protecting? If not, then why? Are they not important enough to be protected and I fact the rejects themselves?

Now, along that same line… were THEY the ones contacted because they were expendable? It seems very likely that this summit is a trap of some kind, or perhaps a ruse at best. If this is the case, then the Dupes can be killed, maybe leading the other planets into a false security that the Royal Four are dead. Then would the time be right for Max to take his place as King?

The fact that our Pod Squad has the Granolith kinda supports this a bit.

Crap, there was another point I wanted to make and I can’t remember it. Dang it.

Anyway…

Did anyone else notice that Ava seemed very unsure of herself. Unlike Tess. Max and Michael seemed to share the same traits as their Dupes, but Tess and Isabel didn’t. Why is that? Is it because Vilandra and Max’s “Young Bride” had something “wrong” with them? We know Vilandra was a traitor. But we don’t’ know anything about who Tess was previously… other than the King’s Bride.

The more I hear… the more I have to think that Max wasn’t such a great leader after all. I guess Moms are a tad biased.

People speculating on the number of different aliens. 5 because of the 5 ruling planets.. but if that’s the case then we have at least 6… Courtney led me to believe that the two races lived on the same planet.

I see others noticed that Lonnie DID betray her brother. Who’s next, Rath?

Qfanny… I like the idea that the more human-ness gives the podsters more free will. Free will to change the past perhaps.

OH! I remember! Uh, where were the Dupes in the future? Future Max made no mention of them at all… In that future did they never meet for some reason? Seems to me someone didn’t plan their story arc all that well…

Dunraven… you make several good points. Have to agree that Zan could have at least tried to protect himself… then again I think they seriously took him by surprise… Also have to agree on the “classic bad planning”. These aliens don’t seem to be all that bright lately do they?

It just dawned on me that the Dupes did shape shift (I’m slow.. I know I know… ). Hence I guess that means they are the less human. Oh shut up! I can’t catch everything:P

Clarientkate… very good points about Tess. Sadly, I doubt most of the Tess haters out there care about good points.

I was wondering the same thing. Maybe Future Max just didn't want to give Liz too much information?

The Red Star going supernova 1st the science teacher stated that it was not observed until it exploded and he goes on to say how seeing this is sooooooo rare because it takes soooooooo long for the star to supernova-so basically he was saying this happening was a real surprise-to me it screamed outside forces and a plot taken from STAR TREK-anyone know how/why the Klingons joined the Federation?? Because there Moon exploded-planet moved out of its orbit and rotation, the radiation, shock waves alone caused major damaged-and if they had not joined they would not have been able to survive-sooo what if the fighting caused the RED STAR(which correct me if i'm wrong is a sun or planet) to go supernova was do to the fighting???? or them, the other aliens, failing to stop the supernova due to all the fighting???

which brings up an issue of the passing of time the way everyone is talking the home planet(s) are just waiting for the podsters to return like they just left yesterday soooooo does that mean that time and/or aging differ from what it is on earth????

the podsters in Roswell may not have been the 1st set of the royal 4 made BUT their mixture was the blend "they" were looking for thus they got the granolith-just think about it

POSTED BY DUNRAVEN:
Watching for Brody - think that there is another abduction in his future. Maybe it will have something to do with the summit?

can i just say i soooooo agree on you with this-something i picked up from the show and X-files-when people tell stories of their being "abducted" a common thing among all "victims" are the blackouts for a period of time and then waking up in places other then where they were the last time they remember-even in different towns, cities and states

quote:Originally posted by Alienwatcher:
At first I believe Lonnie that the NM podsters were the dups because they were too human. Made sense, but after thinking about it I realized that since the NM podsters had the granolith, I believe they are the true orginals.

(...)

Just as the NM podsters had Nasedo, I'm sure that the NY podsters had a protector, but unlike the NM four the NY four were raised by their protector just as Tess was raised by Nasedo and therefore have more information on themselves.

In regards to the "too human" statement, I believe Lonnie's statement to a degree. The podster are probably more wrapped up in the everyday lives of humans more than the engineers probably wanted. But I also think that our Podsters: M/Mi/I/T are the legitimate ones because they have the granolith.

I agree with Elliott's statement that the NYC podsters are the inferior ones for the reasons cited by Elliott.

Metaphysicalgrl and JanetMG
Both of you made comments on the leaking pod shown in Sof47. As far as I recall, there was only one pod leaking, but let's say for argument's sake that it effected the entire sac of four. If the leaking goo was somesort of necessary biochemical liquid for personality growth, then that returns the question back to nature. One's character is linked to scientific elements. It's possible, but I feel that we really won't know until next week. This makes me wonder what was the stuff anyway... Melidious1 perhaps it was their genetic programming. That could explain a lot.

But going back to Alienwatcher's post, I see a general agreement that the NYC four were raised by someone, perhaps a SS like our elusive TicTac. (BTW Rebecca I can't believe I found a poster that doesn't strongly lean to the TicTac theory.) But not necessarly so... Palomino asked how they got their yearbook and ms_gwyn pegged Nasedo.

Seems to me that this protector/teacher would have to know about both sets, and know the NM podster very well. Particularly since for most of the podster's lives, they have been hiding in plain site. As dunraven said Lonnie knew too much about Max (et al) before showing they showed up in Roswell. Whoever this unknown protector is, they would have to be close enough to Max to be able to tell Lonnie the information she knew about him.

(Perhaps Lonnie is also a dreamwalker, and got this information from Max's and other's subconsciences. This would answer a lot of Palomino's questions, except how she got the yearbook, but I really don't think so. )

quote:Originally posted by TVPooh:
....Lonnie shape-shifted into isabelle to stage a fight with Max on purpose to get him to come to NY...

also, Rebecca posted
quote:Originally posted by Rebecca. In theory they should be able to do it. And so it begs the question, should they also be able to reconfigure their physical mass, change the size and shape of their features, etc...or is their physical mass an exception in this not-so-"hard"-science scfi series?

I've been thinking about this, and at first, I thought it was honest shapeshifting. I have since changed my mind. Lonnie and Rath did not actually take a different form, but altered their apparance. This is something we have seen already from Isabel in Season One, changing her lipstick color and making the perfect nailpolish. Michael even did this in Destiny with the fingerprint. So, they can alter their own bodies all they want, but they cannot take someone else's form.

sdseddie
Hi. Welcome to the SciFi threads!

You asked about whether Max could get confused between Ava and Tess. Based on Lonnie's and Rath's deception, I think he could. And Max does not know Tess nearly as well as he knows Isabel.

I feel very unqualified to comment on the red star and timing correlation. I know my weaknesses. But if Liz and Max feels it's important, it probably is.

shapeshifter--Interesting idea about Tess. The points clarinetkate made about Tess being loyal have not escaped me either. I can't make up my mind about her, good or bad, switched or not, she does add an interesting element to the Roswell timeline.

Welcome to the SciFi thread and thanks for posting. Many of us her cringe at some of the science elements in Roswell. So you are not alone.

I also want to say howdy and welcome to CedarCirle, Lameduck, estherterrestrial, kwadyhed and The Kender. Post away folks. I'm reading it all, even if I can't comment on all of it at once.

In the end of the episode when "Ava" says she's not going, could that have been the NM Tess??? Ya never know if she told Max r Tess the truth and was actually on Maxs' side??

Just a thought

~Nena~

I didn't think this episode, regarding the Dupes was very sci-fi. The only new "science fiction" that we learned about was that the NYpodsters can "semi-shapeshift."

But on the "psychology of" front this was a loaded episode for the podsters. I'm beginning to think that all the "Elvis" references (even Brody said something!) are about Zan or "impersonators." Elvis impersonators...Royal Four impersonators, the King is dead...long live the King!

I was also taken with the thought of "Dupes." Well, Max, Isobel, Michael and Tess have just been "duped" into letting Max run away to New York. Duplicates also imply a copy which is different from a "hybrid clone." What if the NYPodsters have the original alien "essence" but the NMpodsters have the "duplicate" essence, softer around the edges, blurred, "more human."

I, too, think Ava is the original New Mexico hybrid somehow switched with Tess. It still doesn't negate that Nasedo raised Tess and Tic-Tac was the NYpodsters protector. As somebody pointed out, Dr. Margolin was in Roswell for "Crazy" and could have brought the Yearbook back with him.

I think somewhere in the Lonnie mess is some element of good, otherwise she couldn't have played Isobel with such pain. "Lonnie" does feel some guilt from killing Zan, that's why she was trying to justify herself to Max. Isobel has already, in a sense, betrayed Max. She betrayed him by not telling him the truth, by trying to handle Nicholas on her own, by not trusting that Max would love her as she is today.

Now what really gets me is why Max can't wake up and smell the roses about all the people that surround him. Trust, not control is the ticket!

Finally, I have a friend who works in the television industry as a costumer (mostly soap operas). She makes fun of writers always having lovers "give a necklace" "take back a necklace" to signify a breakup. I was hooting about the Liz + Max 4-ever knife return. Liz would definately know that giving a knife symbolizes that you want to cut the relationship not make it last forever!

Enough ranting.

"I shall believe."

On Brody "losing time," maybe the pentagonal beeper has time warp power. If Liz finds out (via Maria), I bet she tries to undo something.

Re: History Repeating Itself

Earlier on this thread I posted that history had repeated itself with Lanie betraying Xan, and questioned whether than was meant to foreshadow the fact that Isabel will indeed betray Max, or will it go Run Lola Run on us, where Isabel finally gets it right.

Since posting that I've been thinking about history repeating itself as it relates to Michael and Rath... Courtney stated that she was from a faction of skins who wanted Michael to rule, but he WOULDN'T BETRAY Max. At the time, I questioned this only minimally (we know Vilandra betrayed the family, but perhaps Michael's inactivity did indeed further the conflict...). Now though I am seriously wondering about it. We see that in this life in the Dupes, Rath did betray Xan. Was this a departure from the past life? And what does this mean for our Michael? Will he defer to Max as he did in the past life, or actively seek to dethrone him as he did in the dupe life?

--KATE

Exactly... and he spells it out doesn't he... Me, Michael, Isabel and Tess. He doesn't say anythign about 8 of them.

I don't know why most everybody is assuming our podsters are the defective ones. God protect us if the NY podsters are more like the Twilonians rulers - can you imagine planet leaders without regard for life? If that's the case, Max is better off having plastic surgery to take the alien essence away and plan to stay in NM! I just thought Lannie was showing her insecurities when she told Michael that they (ours) were the defective ones. I thought any of the sets will do - that's why they sent two: the heir and the spare! Although the Granolith confirms ours are the true Royal Four (5?)!

Agree with BehrAll - Rath and Lannie had just gotten away with manipulating Max into going to NY - they kissed, they wanted to continue to other things, the next logical step was to "take their clothes off".

ClarinetKate: I know you like Tess. I know they have tried to make her more sympathetic this season, but... can we talk?

Somebody much wiser than me said "He who forgets the past is bound to repeat it". She lied to everybody, she mind-raped Max (no, it wasn't mind-warp. Anybody who makes another person believe they are acting in a way contrary to their most basic instincts is a rapist), she lied, the stories she came up with have not been given a resolution yet (how they came out of the pods, the book, those weird looks with Nacero, everything about her). Now, this season, although the writers have tried to make her look more sympathetic, they have managed, at the same time, to throw a wrench or two that brings me back to thinking she is evil and has ulterior motives and we'll soon find out she is not who she says she is!). i.e.: the worshipping way she looked and asked about Vanessa, her amoral views towards sex (trimming of the lamp - "you only went to bed with him", etc.), her interesting "phone conversation with Grant", etc. And let's not forget Liz's "I just don't trust her!". I don't either and I'll be glad if something happens next week to exchange her for Ava. At least she picked up a fruit at the Korean stand and put it back on the shelfs! That says it all!

"...nice guys get washed away like the snow and the rain"

Where is Tic-tac?

I think you're onto something here. And if the granolith is the most powerful alien device we have heard of, I wonder if that, in the wrong hands, can destroy stars and their worlds? I suspect there's a reason the writers have Liz urgently warn Max about the power of the granolith in the same hour as we hear about the exploded star.

quote: (continued)
...which brings up an issue of the passing of time the way everyone is talking the home planet(s) are just waiting for the podsters to return like they just left yesterday soooooo does that mean that time and/or aging differ from what it is on earth????
[/B]

Maybe. (Or, we now know time travel is a possibility in this story.) Do you think those road signs in Max's room are hints of this? The STOP sign, and the one saying Tow Zone / No Parking -- notice the two-way arrow under the last line:

Any Time
<=====>

(That sign has been there a long time, but this time we got a better look at it. Earlier, it was usually cropped to just the last line.)

[b]Metaphysicalgrl and JanetMG
Both of you made comments on the leaking pod shown in Sof47. As far as I recall, there was only one pod leaking, but let's say for argument's sake that it effected the entire sac of four. If the leaking goo was somesort of necessary biochemical liquid for personality growth, then that returns the question back to nature. One's character is linked to scientific elements. It's possible, but I feel that we really won't know until next week. This makes me wonder what was the stuff anyway... Melidious1 perhaps it was their genetic programming. That could explain a lot.

[/B]

Hey Qfanny...actually, what I think was leaking out of the pods was the human genetic material. The part of their cocktail that would have made them more human. They lost some of that...there's still some in there, just not as much as the Roswell crew.

Here's why I think that...

1) If they sent down two sets of pods you would think that they would be identical.
2) We know something was leaking out of one of the pods...maybe it only effected one of the pods, but for the sake of this argument I am going to say it effected the whole group.
3) The two different groups are vastly different. One group is more alien than human. The other is more human than alien.
4) I surmise then that the missing ingredient - what had to have leaked out of the pod was the human genetic material.
(did I mention that I was never very good at mathematical equations? Because once I re-read that I realized that the same reasoning could say that it was the alien essence leaking out of the podsters pod!)

I know it's a weak argument but I have been thinking this theory in one form or another since I saw S047.

I am a strong advocate of nature vs. nurture, but until we have any clue as to what the dupes "nurture" really was like, I'm not going to factor it into my thinking.
As a born and bred New Yorker, I can't believe that just being from New York has turned them into what they've become. (and I know you can't see me but that was said with a laugh and a huge smile!) I also don't agree that ones character is linked solely to scientific elements...

OK, the truth is I am beyond confused and all of my theories are starting to get mixed up in my own head!!

Sigh...

Oh yeah, one more thing - I did have a theory about how the dupes got the Yearbook. What if they were working w/Nicholas and the skins or at least in contact with them. Who contacted them for the summit? Anyway, remember Vanessa Whitaker? She had access to those intimate details of the podsters life...Liz even confided to her about breaking up with Max. She was at Isabelle's surprise party and even spoke to her mother. She could have easily gotten the yearbook and given it to Nicholas who could have given it to the podsters. She was the congresswoman for Roswell...I'm sure this would have been easy for her. Anyway, it's just a thought. Maybe it is in Nicholas's benefit for Max or Zan to be at that summit and he was working with the others to get that to happen. Maybe they all had a common goal or something.

Anyway, that's my story and I'm sticking to it...(until I have a new thought in five minutes and change my mind again!)

There has long been speculation on why the Roswell vicinity was chosen for the pod chamber. The radiactivity from the nuclear tests done in the 50's may have hindered the devices used to search for the Royal Four. Why was New York City chosen for the adoptive home of the Duplicates?

Maybe the stench would keep the EA away?

Now Reggie, that wasn't very nice.

It's obvious why the dupes came to NY. As Rath said, it's the center of the Universe. I'm sure the word has spread as far as the 5 planets in their galaxy! If you're gonna be on Earth, you might as well be in Manhattan.

Did I mention, Yeah Yankees!!!!!!!!!

On the leaky pods, I think it's more logical that something that could leak out would be alien, since human DNA is within the individual cells. This would jive with what Lonnie said about who was defective. But maybe the defects will turn out to have what it takes to bring peace.

Also, if Tess & Ava were switched, Tess now sees what she could have become, while Ava yearns for the quietness (?) of Roswell.

Metaphysicalgirl and Reggie: you 2 are almost as bad as Max & Is!
I think we learned in last week's ep that Roswell's climate was a form of Skin-repellent (pun really not intended). New York, OTOH, would provide a kind of anonymity within the masses.

One last question: Do we have to wait til next week to even begin to speculate how the Dupes knew there were 8 pods? And were the poor little dupes hatched in the subways?

I don't find it hard to believe. I've *been* in a situation where I was eviscerated in that exact way, except for the selfless motives behind it; that level of pain is indescribable, and I did many things I wouldn't have in saner times. Pain and common sense don't make a good team, and right now, everywhere Max looks is just more pain. The Liz betrayal was immeasurable, and then to find out, under terrible circumstances, that both Iz and Michael have been lying to him, too... I don't expect his usual superior sense. And he wasn't manipulated by obvious dupes: they looked like Iz and Michael.

The one thing that emotionally tracks for me this season is Max's emotions about the betrayal. Max is in so much pain, and has had no time to grieve; he would have to be afraid that if he lets the cork off of that mountain of pain, he won't survive. So there's a very common human solution - - displacement onto some other, lesser object. When we have a huge emotion to vent, we look for someone less frightening to dump it on, a scenario that is less life-threatening than the real one. That way you get to vent *some* of the toxic emotion, but you can always keep yourself back from the brink by saying, "It's only about Isabel."

Max is dealing with rage and grief about betrayal, so he's chosen the lesser betrayals, Michael's and Isabel's, to explode over.

Everything's been pointed at their weaknesses: the mommygram vision in the cave, the tales CW and Nicholas told, the ones Courteny told, the stories the NYC 3 told - - everyone speaking has an agenda, a hidden motive. They want to make the podsters doubt themselves and especially each other, is the only common track I see throughout.

I've kind of given up on thinking that the show's planning or writing are subtle enough for this to be true, and coming around to the idea that we're just supposed to swallow all this tamely and accept it as exposition; but I wish it were true, that we could actually pick up signs and clues and track the real plotline.

Somebody much wiser than me said "He who forgets the past is bound to repeat it". She lied to everybody, she mind-raped Max (no, it wasn't mind-warp. Anybody who makes another person believe they are acting in a way contrary to their most basic instincts is a rapist), she lied, the stories she came up with have not been given a resolution yet (how they came out of the pods, the book, those weird looks with Nacero, everything about her). Now, this season, although the writers have tried to make her look more sympathetic, they have managed, at the same time, to throw a wrench or two that brings me back to thinking she is evil and has ulterior motives and we'll soon find out she is not who she says she is!). i.e.: the worshipping way she looked and asked about Vanessa, her amoral views towards sex (trimming of the lamp - "you only went to bed with him", etc.), her interesting "phone conversation with Grant", etc. And let's not forget Liz's "I just don't trust her!". I don't either and I'll be glad if something happens next week to exchange her for Ava. At least she picked up a fruit at the Korean stand and put it back on the shelfs! That says it all!

Bluecornmoon,

I could write a book on why I like Tess and why I don't believe she is evil. There may be slight inconsistancies in her character from last season, most of which I can explain away (no, I don't think she's a mindrapist at all, nor do I think she was shady or a liar, I think she was manipulated by Nasedo to some degree, I think she has led a very different life than our three, I think she initially saw the humans as somewhat expendable, but none of that equals evil in my mind...at all).

You say that they have developed the character but have thrown monkey wrenches in to make you still not trust her. I don't believe she was looking at Vanessa's picture in an admiring way, this was someone she was abused by... when they showed us flashes, they didn't show us flashes of Tess and Vanessa plotting against the podsters, they showed Tess being saved by Isabel.

I also don't think Tess has an "amoral" view of sex. Remember this is Tess we are talking about, she doesn't like to show her hurt or emotions. I think she was casually brushing it off to make it appear like she didn't care, but inside she had to be pretty NOT happy (that's TWO men now that Liz has beaten her to). And thank you Tess for calling a duck a duck. All Liz DID do was sleep with him. She didn't "make love" with Kyle. I was soo cringing when Liz said that... Max should have known right there that it was a LIE. You don't "make love" with some you don't love, you have sex, actually, I'd call it something else, but that might be considered amoral

I'll have to re-rewatch, but I thought Eva took the fruit? I can not believe that Eva is the real podster. It doesn't make any sense that the writers would take all this time developing Tess to just say, HA, all along she was the WRONG ONE. But, perhaps I also have a hard time believing this because I've NEVER thought Tess was evil.

--KATE

Here's why I think that...

1) If they sent down two sets of pods you would think that they would be identical.
2) We know something was leaking out of one of the pods...maybe it only effected one of the pods, but for the sake of this argument I am going to say it effected the whole group.
3) The two different groups are vastly different. One group is more alien than human. The other is more human than alien.
4) I surmise then that the missing ingredient - what had to have leaked out of the pod was the human genetic material.

Qfanny, I thought in Sof47 that there were 4 embryos in each sac. At that time, I don't think they were in 4 pods separated by membranes (or whatever it is). So if the leak should affect or potentially affect all four (if it has any effect at all).

Unlike Metaphysicalgrl, I don't really see one set as more human or less alien than the other. (I also saw the NY'ers "too human" comment as defensive rather than fact.)It just seemed to me that NY crew displayed more unpleasant human traits than the NM crew.

I guess I'd speculate that what leaked isn't alien essence or human genetic material, but something akin to hormones or other chemicals. I think studies have shown that differing hormone levels during pregnancy can affect the personality of the child. (Is there a doctor in the house who can confirm or deny?) It seems less likely to me, but it may even have been some kind of nutritional substance (like a yolk). Does anyone know the extent to which nutritional intake during pregnancy can affect a child?

BTW, I agree with why "they" picked NM and NY -- one has an advantageous climate and a lot of open, undeveloped land (to hide the granilith), and the other provides a great deal of cover (in plain sight, as it were).

Anyway -- just a random thought: doesn't it strike anyone as strange that the Dupes are the same age as the Roswell Podsters? I mean, has there been any indication that they were supposed to be "born" at a specific time? (I guess I always figured that M/Mi/I emerged unexpectedly early, which would explain why Nasedo wasn't there for them. And I could buy one coincidence -- ie, Tess being about the same age -- because maybe when one pod opens it triggers the others, or something, but isn't it a bit much to expect that all 8 opened around the same time?

Although, after rereading what I just wrote, maybe one set of pods opening triggered the other set to open too. Hmmm.

Oh, I don't know.

Anyway -- just a random thought: doesn't it strike anyone as strange that the Dupes are the same age as the Roswell Podsters? I mean, has there been any indication that they were supposed to be "born" at a specific time? (I guess I always figured that M/Mi/I emerged unexpectedly early, which would explain why Nasedo wasn't there for them. And I could buy one coincidence -- ie, Tess being about the same age -- because maybe when one pod opens it triggers the others, or something, but isn't it a bit much to expect that all 8 opened around the same time?

That's something I've been meaning to ask. Did everyone think the NY podsters were the same age as the NM ones? I couldn't decide. In their NY gear, the actors looked more like their real ages (early to mid twenties), of course, I don't think their NM versions look their supposed teen ages. So I can't decide if their looking older was intentional or just the change in costumes.

SF

Yes, that's the kind of thing I was thinking about. Thanks for the info! Unfortunately, my memory/knowledge on this point is so vague, I have no idea where I read about the possiblity that hormone levels during pregnancy can have an effect or what kinds of personality traits, etc. were involved.

I'm pulling a few things from memory, so the details might not be 100% accurate. There were some really detailed studies done on rats/mice re hormone cascades and brain sex. There are critically timed phases where the mother's endocrine system (hormones/chemicals) bathes the embryo/foetus in certain hormones. If this doesn't occur at the right time or in the right sequence, brain sex and genetic sex don't match, i.e. if a male foetus's amnoetic fluid doesn't show an increase in testosterone from the mother at about the end of the first trimester (humans), then his brain remains feminized even though he is genetically male. Stress in pregnant mothers has also been correlated with changes in the brain. As to nutrition and development, I know that if the baby is not getting enough nutrition (Mom's starving), not all organs are created equal. If memory serves again, the brain and nervous system take precedence, so mom's nutrition during gestation actually has long term health affects.

I got the impression that each pod was encapsulated and just connected to the other 3 pods by a stalk. The whole setup looking very similar to the 4 square symbol. I still don't think that the pod was damaged, it was just the encompassing membrane that was damaged and leaking. So IMHO, no genetic material or alien essence could have leaked out. JanetMG, I just reread your post, and I'm in agreement. In an earth biology sense, it's just not possible, but in Roswell science fiction...I'd like to think it's a stretch even for that. The chemical cue/nutrition theory might hold water, but differences between the podsters and the NY dupes can be just as easily explained by Lonies comment. They're not clones/identical, there are differences, one group has errors. I'm starting to think that the NY group are decoys, and I know that's not a new idea. Sorry I can't give credit to the originator. If what Lonie says is really true, and one pod set is defective, what reason besides a red herring would their people have had for knowingly sending both sets. Unless even a defective Royal Four can bring peace. Maybe it takes the presence of all four of them to fully power the granolith?

SF

Speaking of FETUSES:

Palomino:
When I saw the TATTOOS I noticed that the 4S symbols were modified. I guess this could mean as you suggest that they (SSers) had a different method of distinguishing them from the Royal Four.

I thought that the TATTOOS looked pretty lame considering what is possible with the needle today. I thought that they drew them on themselves and didn't want to take the time to be artistic about it.

As far as Max's trip to NYC, first Liz, of course he's coming back. The show is called Roswell! Second, I slow-mo the promo and you can clearly see pod like things of yellow, so maybe we will get the background on that. Hopefully, the NY2 and NM2 will get some of the background stuff cleaned up for us as well. Wouldn't that be nice.

Just a thought

~Nena~

Hi Nena!

Welcome to the SciFi threads! You bet it's possible. The writers have tried to pass of even more unbelievable stuff, like Candium X, the cyclotron, the Whirlwind galaxy and my favorite, Mommogram.

Anything is possible for the Hollywood writer.

Hi Roswell rulz

Welcome to the SciFi threads!

I am glad you said this. I do not think that Zan's death and the red star have any direct influence on one another, symbolic perhaps. When you say Zan do you mean Dupe Max? Or do you mean Zan, King of Twilo?

If you meant Zan, King of Twilo, I still do not believe that the death of the star has anything to do with the war, Vilondra's betrayal or the podster's current plight. What we have here are speculations...

The death of the Red Star was unnatural, or at least that is what it seemed to me....

Here's what we know, assuming everyone tells the truth.

1) The war is over. -Lonnie refered to the war in the past tense.
2) The star died last week. -Still hard for me to except that Mr. Seligman could pinpoint the exactness.
3) The podsters first died and then were recreated into these hybrids, assuming under Mommy's eye. Thus, Mommy therefore most likely knew about Vilondra's betrayal.

Still, I suspect that next week, we will have a better answer for the RED STAR connection. If Max and Liz thought it was important, it probably was.

Science folks, do you think that it is meant for us to think that the star did die a week ago, or was it a week ago that the astronimers noticed that the star "burned" out. That the star's death actually happened LY ago. I am struggling to understand what the writers want us to think.

--------

"I'm just happy to be nominated"
Lizzybell

------

"I'm just happy to be nominated"
Lizzybell

About the collapsed star: I admit that I am obsessed with the idea that it died because Zan died. But here's another idea: the star died when the Skins got torched because that was their star and Nickolas needed all of its energy to regenerate himself (into the kid on the skooter). By the way, can anyone tell if the kid on the bicycle in Skin & Bones (passes Liz when Max first sees her) is Nickolas?

Grant you, I understand that the coincidence somehow made a connection in Max's brain and that's why it "haunted" him, but you could also attribute it to some sort of telephatic dupe-connection?.. similar to that shared by twins, who know what's happening to the other, even when far away?

Shapeshifter (I have to stop following you from thread to thread :grin As for Max's visions, my daughter and I were discussing the fact that he sees Is at the pod chamber, when she is alone in Surprise. Maybe we can attribute that, and the others, to a podster connection. I thought the road less traveled, was Liz's and I was glorying in their incredible oneness. I like this version a lot!

What was wrong about what the "science teacher" said:
1. He talked as if it was unusual for a red giant to implode. All red giants are going to implode, because they are dying, and that is how they die.
2. He admitted the star was post-main sequence, but then he said the star was in the prime of its life. Main sequence is when the star is still burning Hydrogen into Helium. Red giants are past this, and are beginning to die, so red stars are not in the prime of their life.

If the point the writers were making was that this was an artificially caused implosion into a black hole, they could have found a better way of saying it. Ugh!!! WRITERS: E-MAIL ME WITH SCIENCE IDEAS AND I WILL FIX ANYTHING FREE OF CHARGE! WHEN YOU UNKNOWINGLY HUMILIATE YOURSELVES, IT EMBARASSES ME!

In my posts of Monday and Tuesday, I mentioned that Max said it was haunting him. He feels bad or guilty about it although he doesn't know the cause. What if he or the ensuing war was the cause, and he subconsciously remembers or knows this?

First, we do not know where this new black hole is. We weren't even told if it was in our galaxy or (cringe)The "Whirlwind" galaxy(gag). Since we are alive, and Earth is not damaged, the supernova took place well over 100 LY away, so it took place over 100 years ago. If it was in our Magellanic clouds (close companion galaxies of the Milky Way), it would be 170,000 old. The next galaxy is 2 million LY away. If the red giant supernovaed into a black hole as part of the show's plot, it has to be in our galaxy, and it had to happen over 100 years ago. (but of course writers are going to mess this up big time! I don't know why I even take the time to find ways of explaining away their mistakes. SIGH)

THEORIES:
1. When we saw the flashes in SH, we saw the POV of something that heading towards and probably using a black hole as a method of space travel, because the next shot was the POV of something wizzing very quickly into our(?) galaxy, and heading for our star system. Obviously, the aliens can travel faster than the speed of light, so if they are using black holes, they may have made one as sort of a transporter in a stategic place. It wouldn't have to be close to Earth if the aliens are traveling faster than light. What if bad aliens are going to use it for a fullscale invasion of Earth? Aliens might not need it to get here, but to get back or send plunder/slaves back to the homeworld. Is Max's subconscious aware of what it can be used for? His "haunting" could be dread.

2. What if the SSers created it as a method of getting surviving podsters back to their homeworld when they were "ready"?

3. What if the star was destroyed as a method of killing yet another species, that was living near by it? Max has been dead for a minimum of 54 years. You don't know at what point he was alive and ruling before this, or how long alien lifespans are. Did Max give the order? Did bad aliens do it and Max couldn't or didn't stop them?

Max seemed sad that the star had gone nova "prematurely", and said later that it haunted him. Since this would actually have had to happen a long time ago and Max doesn't know why it haunts him, I think we should look to Max's past life for a link, not to recent events.

3. ...Since this would actually have had to happen a long time ago and Max doesn't know why it haunts him, I think we should look to Max's past life for a link, not to recent events.
Happy Thanksgiving, Palomino!
Okay, I'm going to tweak your ideas a little (just let me know if it starts to hurt ).
I love the idea of the black hole of the imploded star being a means of transport. BTW, it fits with Melinda Metz's books. But after watching the ep 3 times, I am convinced that the writers want us to link Zan's death to the star's implosion. If it were up to me, it would be linked to the frying of the Skins last week, but I **really** get that other message from MTD. So, taking your #2 ("a method of getting surviving podsters back to their homeworld when they were 'ready'"), I am suggesting that when Zan was killed his essence was transported back to somewhere (?), and that Max, being kind of like a twin (their sacs were together until they were "fetuses" as opposed to just "embryos"), senses the loss of his identical twin.

If this is true, then Zan's essence is still viable for re-cloning (to be adopted by Max & Liz at some later date?).

And Palomino, remember the "stable" of Max's? Well, we did get 2! "I'm the man!" If you have any time over vacation and can still recall the multiple podster theory of Season 1, I would love to take you up on your earlier offer and post it on the Season 1 Theories site.

A possibly unrelated observation: In the transcript of WO, there is this use of "implode:"
quote:LIZ: Would you step on it, please? My dad is gonna implode if we don't get this thing back by the lunch rush.

Correct. Because we found out about the nova from earthlings rather than from alien sources, we are supposed to understand that the event happened long ago and that light from it only recently reached earth.

(It's not so much that I think the death of the star was caused by Zan's death or Tess's sudden explosion of power, but I maintain that in the strange, illogical world that is Roswell sci-fi, the timing is significant.)

Anyways ...

Hello All. Just a thought here...I re-watched Harvest last night and I noticed that at the end of the eppy, after all the husks had been destroyed, there was a shot of Nicholas' husk -- seemingly undestroyed.
I'm not positive about this, but I could've sworn I saw that. Anyone else notice this?

This should be on Rosta's thread, or better yet on your old thread, BehrAll, but I think it fits with the shooters discussion:
My daughter was telling me the whole Helen of Troy scenerio including Perecles (is that the right dude?) as a type of Snow White (the Woodsman didn't really kill her), and I'm thinking that this is what happened with Liz. Think Tess as the evil beautiful Queen (sorry, Emilie), and Liz as Snow White.

Maybe I have watched the X-files a little too much, but my first thought when I heard that there were dead aliens was, "what did our government do with them?"
I would think our government would want to find out as much as they could about the aliens, and after they finished disecting it, I think they would want to see if they could create a human-alien hybrid. I think they would want to see if they could give these alien abilities to a human.
(Possibly Sharon Hubble was carrying one)
Anyway, I really doubt that the dupes are related to this theory in any way, and I guess I shouldn't have posted it on this thread. Sorry about that.

Very funny, shapeshifter . BTW, if you ever develop that intriguing little theory/analogy some more, I'd love to hear about it. Let me know if you do, okay? And hey, say the word and I'd be happy to give you an R&I forum to share it in (er, if the Mods allow that sort of thing anymore. Then again, it's not a shipper thread, so ...).

Another random thought ... the Roswell Podsters didn't show the Dupes Brody's little alien gadget even though they spent all night in the Museum, right? And they didn't mention anything about the Granolith (sp?). And yet, when the Dupes talked about being contacted, my first thought was to wonder how they communicated -- i.e., with those little cosmic footballs, or maybe a little handheld device of their own, or what?

Also, someone somewhere -- sorry someone, I don't remember who you are -- speculated that the Granolith was the power source keeping the pods going while the podsters were developing. So doesn't it stand to reason that the Dupes should have a Granolith of their own? I wonder how that would work ...

Until we find out exactly if the Granolith is a transporter, we don't know how long it took Nacero to bring the podsters to Earth (crash?).

Shapeshifter: I have found that Hawaiian time, as you know it, exists in the same wavelength in most of the rest of the world too!!

Kristine888: I think QFanny said the Granolith gave the podsters the energy to grow. It may be but I don't think that was its main reason to exist, and I don't think the New Yorkers have another one (since they are so interested in going back to Twilo, Rath would have given it to them already). Besides, where would they put it?

Okay, I don't dare post this on the Liz Mythology Thread, and I still think Liz is Max's Venus, but in 4Square: quote:LIZ: Oh, wow, it’s Venus. When it’s in the right place in the sky, it completes the V shape. It started moving into this formation after the last full moon.

MAX: About the time that Tess showed up.brrrr

BehrAll, if you have time to do a new Interpretations thread I think it'd be great. There's Rosta's symbols thread, and the Joseph Campbell thread, but no real place for Liz as Snow White.

Oh, come on. These two have a "thing" going, and they just about say "let's go get naked". Can no one else figure this out?

As for the shapeshifting business: remember that Harding said even he couldn't change what's on the "inside". In Michael's case (WR), he could shapeshift (the outside of) his fingertip. We've also seen Isabel changing her fingernail polish. Since Lonnie and Rath are already the same as Isabel and Michael, on the inside, adjusting the outside should be well within their abilities. For all 8 of them, as a matter of fact: M&I should be able to masquerade as R&L.

In the end of the episode when "Ava" says she's not going, could that have been the NM Tess??? Ya never know if she told Max r Tess the truth and was actually on Maxs' side??

Don't worry - we've all had stupid thoughts. That's half the fun of this discussion!

No, that really was Ava who wasn't going. Tess was also present in the scene, and was going with Max. She also saw the whole Rath/Ava confrontaion, and (I believe) understood it for what it was. Watch Tess's face - she's standing beside Max. Emilie does some great acting just with her face; it's worth watching just her reactions.
I'm expecting Tess to save Max at least once next week, and/or call the others in to rescue them.

Oh, bcm, don't cry. I was just exaggerating. I've been to, and through, NYC. A few months ago, I made a wrong turn on I95 N, got on the upper level of some bridge (GW?), and wound up driving on the surface streets through Queens. Driving a tractor-trailer! And it ain't no sportscar, lemme tell ya... it takes 4 lanes to turn a t-t: you start in the second lane from the curb, and wind up in the second lane from the curb, but your trailer wheels come close to the corner! Fortunately it was 3 AM, and traffic was light. Have you been to New Jersey? It's worse.

(...) her amoral views towards sex (trimming of the lamp - "you only went to bed with him", etc.), (...)
Yes, but what do you really think of Tess?
Look, as philosophical as we get here sometimes, I think we can understand this. In Christianity, and other religions (Buddhism?) there is the clear understanding that things of this world, things "of the flesh", are much less important than things of the mind/spirit/soul. In that context, Tess's (and Courtney's) lack of regard for their physical beings is, well..., respectable. Let's notice that Courtney, for all her flirting, gave her life for Michael & Co. Tess, for all her flirting with Kyle, has really stood beside one guy only: Max. (The lamp-trimming episode was exasperation with, and rebellion against, the Destiny plan more than anything else, IMHO. Note the monolog before Kyle's coment.) I think they are drawing a line between amusements of the moment, and matters which are more serious. Are they showing us an alien morality? Perhaps.

CedarCircle, this is where I get lost. What Palomino said about Max being haunted by the red star's death would seem to me to connect Max's and Zan's former life as king would then make sense.

However, he does call the meeting based upon the star news. And this ep is after they find out about time shifts. So, in Roswellian Time as interpreted by Max, I think we have to accept instantaneous news from outer galaxies.

Human astronomers here on Earth observed the supernova normally by light from the star, which travels at 186,000 miles per second. This means there was no alien singing telegram to tell them of the news earlier than the light reaching us-
In Loving Memory of Zan
"A puffed up red giant is dead.
It suffered from a swollen head.
Like our egotistical Zan,
Who was imploded by a van.
So a star to honor him with,
We zapped it with a granolith.
How fitting to implode a star,
To show how sorry we all are."

OK, let's say aliens blew up a star because Zan died. If they blew up the sun, we would know it in 8 1/2 minutes - and we would all be dead. If the sun's closest neighboring star was blown up, we would know about it in 4.2 years - and again, we would all be dead. Any star going supernova within 100 LY of us, would kill or severely endanger life on Earth. If a star blew up because of Zan's death, we won't know about it for a very long time. If astronomers observed a supernova, and survived, the event took place over a century ago.

I still think the supernova of the red giant, if it was unusual or unnatural, is tied to Max's previous life, and all jokes aside, what if this is an example of what can be done with the granolith? I sort of think he was responcible for this destruction in his previous life.

Max said at the UFO Center during the meeting that it had been haunting him. If Max was tied to his duplicate, don't you think he would have felt the death of Zan, rather than felt haunted by the death of a star that represented Zan? He didn't seem too upset by the passing of his duplicate, but instead wanted to know if he and Rath had been close. (He feels more the loss of his friendship with Michael.) None of them seemed tied to or even aware of their duplicates until now.

Thanks for the clarifications--

Max=Max
NYDupe=Zan
Proto-Max/Zan=King Zan

1) Could the death of the red star by the result of actions of King Zan? (I would rather think not, and we are being spoonfed this Valandra story as world wrecker.)

2) If Max was haunted by Zan (NYDupe) death, not the red giant; then why didn't Ava or Tess react as well? In TWR Tess said she would *know* if anything happened to Max.

3) I agree that it would be impossible for the star to die and we know about it exactly 1 week later. I think it's possible for Max was haunted by the red star's death (which may or maynot have been caused by actions of King Zan) because Isabel/Lonnie have been haunted by Valandra's actions.

Thanks for helping me out.

On the imploding star: If someone with the right powers wanted Max to see it, they could do a temporary time shift on space outside our atmosphere.

OT: our automatic banner opener is no longer opening banners, so Click, Click, Click those obnoxious-but-necessary ads!

QFanny: Let's assume Tess/Ava were switched at birth. Could the little demonstration of Tess' powers, when she "destroyed" the Skins at the end of Wipe-Out, be because she "felt" Zan's death? Remember how she said in Destiny that she would feel it if the body going to the Morgue was Max? Well, her Max is Zan. Did she feel his death and expressed her bereavement that way? hmmm....

BTW Reggie, I will not like Tess, I will not like Tess... (I have to go throw a tantrum here!). You may be right but I think the jury is still out on her... we shall see....

And I think we need to consider FM's words about the granolith and its use for time travel: "It wasn't intended to be, but it does have an enormous amount of power, and we were able to modify it to artificially create a tear in time space." Although Nicholas managed to put humans into another time zone, Courtney compared it to the time zones that we know of that are only one hour apart. So there may be serious limits to time travel.

So then, are we just to assume that on Roswell light travels at instantaneous speeds instead of 186,282 mps, and that's what Mr. Seligman was thinking when he spoke of the implosion, and that's also what Max was thinking when he called the meeting based on the star's implosion?

Another Topic: I am wondering if Courtney's reference to piercings meant that she thought Michael should have looked more like Rath.

Yes! and what about Nikolas saying "love the hair - hope you win."

Welcome to the SciFi threads! The plot device of the "evil twin" has been a part of the scifi genre for a while. On pages earlier I believe that we were comparing this episode to an episode of ST.

The fact that the Dupes were not aware of the red giant's death may be important. Max thinks it's important. Liz thinks it's important. Why doesn't Lonnie/Rath/Ava think it's important? There is evidence that the red star is only a plot device to bring the dupes together... But then I have these questions?

1) Why does Max need an excuse to call a meeting, he's king right?
2) Where are the Valenti's?
3) Why take the time to try to explain something like a dying star (esp when facts are fudged).
4) The dupes were already on their way when Mr. Seligman (sp) gave the red giant lecture. A meeting was going to take place anyway.

Yes! and what about Nikolas saying "love the hair - hope you win."
No, I think Courtney was just using a lewd metaphor for sex. "It only hurts at first; after that, it's all about stimulation." Being a guy, of course I can't speak from personal experience; but it sounded like she was talking about the de-flowering of a a virgin. (I hope there's no kids reading this... ) Which, BTW, may be why Tess was impressed with Liz's description of Kyle. If he was that good at first, it really is noteworthy.

As for the hair, Michael's hair is a fright. Since I think WO was supposed to be a Halloween episode, I think it was a snide remark implying he's going to a costume party/contest. The implication is that Michael must have done something on purpose to make his hair look that bad. A gratuitous insult.

I wonder if Brody unknowingly has some alien device in the UFO center that might cause this.

Somehow I do not subscribe to it. Geez, amazing the person that thinks the rancher/SSer took swapped the SH orb for a dud wouldn't jump on this bandwagon.

I guess I am waiting to see what happens from the Ava character. She hardly says anything. We know nothing about her. All we know about the NYdupes is that they knew about the other four. If Tess was switched with Ava, then she would have known about the existance of 8. And Ava would not have known about the existance of 8. This is assuming that the NY4 had no protector, just like the NM4 (or a protector that was in the distance). I bet that the information they have came from "awakening" dreams of sorts. Ten dollars says that Lonnie and Rath got those same dreams as Isabel and Michael. BTW-- I think it is significant that they the NY4 took their original names (I guess Lonnie definately did.) Chances are they remember their past lives with more clarity than our NM4.

I wonder if Brody unknowingly has some alien device in the UFO center that might cause this.
Yes, it does seem strange to me too. Remember all those comments from Harding in S1? "Timing is everything." "Not as long as I've been looking for you." etc... Now we have an ad hoc time machine aka granolith. The Skins have a technology that manipulates time. We have a pretty messed up timeline regarding May 14th, Oct 25th, and Harvest. I am surprised that FM would know exactly when he was during EOTW and the people resident in the current timeframe keep losing it.

Also, the words FM says to Liz, artificially create a tear in timespace would suggest that tears in time may be natural occurances. If TPTB want us to think that timelines are linear and can fall naturally over existing timelines, they are not doing a very good job. If anything, the references to "losing time" and "history repeating itself" implies circular timelines.

I wish this could be straighten out. Anyone want to try?

The way Emilie is playing it, though, it's hard to tell what she might be thinking.

Nasedo and the NY4 The NY4 seem to have taken their previous-life names, and perhaps shortened them into nicknames. The problem is, Tess is the only podster Nasedo picked up, or she would know about the others. (That means Nasedo only picked up 1 out of 8 podsters. Let me guess - he was also flying the ship when it crashed.) Would Nasedo have given the girl her correct name? If he gave her another name to help hide her, then why were the NY4 given their real names (decoys?), and who told them their real names? If Nasedo was working alone, then he could not have told the NY4 about themselves or the NM4. (Although he may have found them and peaked in on them like the NM4 - sending him off to protect the ones he liked best.) I suspect the NY4 are working for the skins, who might have given them the year book, and knowledge of the NM4. The NY4 seem greedy, evil, and backstabbing enough to get along well with the skins and other evil aliens. When one of them talked about getting off this miserable planet, it made we wonder if they had been promised something better by the evil aliens, and if this is how Valondra originally betrayed Pre-Max - by being promised something better, but being double-crossed by them in the end. As CW Whittaker said, history will repeat itself, but with Lonnie as the backstabber, not Isabel. Just an idea.

Qfanny: OK, I can redo the multiple Maxes theory, but probably not with the humor or volume of the original. If you still want it, where do I send it?

I did however love the poem! You are very talented P!

Well, if Zan would have been alive, he may have thought it important! Just like Max, he may have have extra qualities, simply because he was the King and as such he had the responsibility and privileges (extra powers) that came with it. Whether they think they can survive or not without him, Rath and Lannie are simply not the King and therefore, not up to the task. They are too much into themselves and overly confident. In the end, that's what may prove their undoing.

Other than that, it seems to me that the Dupes were not/are not "aware". We know they had a protector because their embryos were brought to New York (sacs in the promo), and they were grew up together! (If separated, they would have never found each other. We have five boroughs, you know!). A Nacero-like protector raised them because of their behavior and lack of regard for human life. It could be that all their efforts had to go to surviving in the urban jungle. It could be that they thought the information they had was enough, or the rest will come to them, slowly by surely! By not wanting to attend the summit, Zan showed a certain depth of perception I wouldn't have attributed to him had I just judged by the way he looked! Could it be that, although identical twins in appearance, they were given distinctive personalities/powers/gifts? Zan seemed very sure of himself. Max is not. Zan was outgoing. Max is not. Zan seemed more impulsive than our Max (although, who isn't?). Max seems to have a greated need for control of his environment than Zan. Regardless of whether they have more alienness or humanity in themselves, or whether they are defective or not, either one would have been the King. Maybe this summit is the test in itself. Which one will attend (messages to both) and what will be their behavior will be the answer to those looking for their King.

"1) Why does Max need an excuse to call a meeting, he's king right?"
Not to his closest people, he is not. Besides, he needs an excuse to see Liz!

"2) Where are the Valenti's?"
Not Kyle. The Sheriff...maybe working?

"3) Why take the time to try to explain something like a dying star (esp when facts are fudged)." Because it is important to tell the audience of his connection with Zan's death and/or the death of "his" star?

"The dupes were already on their way when Mr. Seligman (sp) gave the red giant lecture. A meeting was going to take place anyway."
You and I know that. Now, let's let the writers in on the secret. Please write to them c/o Clueless Street, Ignorance Town, Let's-Try-To-Put-Another-One-On-Them State, Paramount Studios, Calif. 90285!

"I guess I am waiting to see what happens from the Ava character. She hardly says anything. We know nothing about her. All we know about the NYdupes is that they knew about the other four. If Tess was switched with Ava, then she would have known about the existance of 8. And Ava would not have known about the existance of 8. This is assuming that the NY4 had no protector, just like the NM4 (or a protector that was in the distance). I bet that the information they have came from "awakening" dreams of sorts. Ten dollars says that Lonnie and Rath got those same dreams as Isabel and Michael. BTW-- I think it is significant that they the NY4 took their original names (I guess Lonnie definately did.) Chances are they remember their past lives with more clarity than our NM4."

I was hoping Tess will die in NY and Ava, her gentler version who is NOT after Max, would take her place! But that would mean the writers are thinking and that would make me happy. That, as we know, .. will never happen! So... Tess will come back and Ava will go home. If Tess was switched with Ava, she would have been switched at birth so... how would she know?

As for Rath and Lannie getting together. I guess this surprised me because, as children in Israeli Kibbutz's can testify, children who grow up together very rarely develop sexual feelings for one another. But then, maybe their ambition is what keeps them together more than any passion or love!

BCM: LOL at your post! Anyway, regarding the podsters growing up together. I think that for Lonnie and Rath to be lovers, that they did have to have those freaky dreams. That is why they became lovers. Also, we don't know that they didn't grow up together. But it's a fair assumption.

I don't think Ava has any powers btw. We haven't seen any yet from her. Could it be because she was the leaking pod?

FM told Liz that "he, Michael, Isabel and TESS" made a complete set. Without Tess, they weren't as strong. He said *nothing* about Ava or the other podsters.

I think there is definately more to it. In fact, I think Lonnie actually cares for Max or something...I'm not sure but In the promo for Max in the City i noticed that him and Lonnie hugged and she was warning him about something while Rath seemed to be doing bad things...hmmm..my first thought was that he was acting really bad in the promo. Michael betrayed Max too, didn't he? It wasn't only Villandra...
By the way, I just realized that Courtney wasn't even mention! I think Michael should have mentioned her at least once!! or maybe not... Go M&M!!!anyway....
I really liked the episode. It wasn't the best i've ever seen but there wasn't anything wrong with it!
Ranelle
~~~~~~~~
"I love her. What can I say?"
"...You're hopeless."

I forgot about that, shapeshifter!!! I wonder if Courtney knew Michael and he was more like Rath in the past life because Michael, Max, Is, and Tess ARE in fact the defected ones!!! hmmm...possible
About the Ava/Tess switch at birth....i do agree that Tess is definately more evil, make that VERY evil but it would be really complicated.... One thing i noticed was that Rath and Lonnie were lovers right...they even kissed once, yet Tess seemed fine after Zan's death, only guilt-ridden. Yeah, she screamed when they pushed him onto the road but if they were meant to be together, wouldn't she be absolutely devistated?? I still maintain that there is more to this including Liz.
I wonder if the Granolyth will be involved in Max in the City at all because Liz did mention its power for no real apparent reason other than the reference back to EOW and Max and Her's situation. I dunno...Did anyone else see that flicker of realization in Max's eyes when Liz knew all about the Granalyth but said she couldn't tell him?? I hope he still thinks shes lying...I CAN NOT wait for Max In The City!! It looks really good! Did they actually film it in New York?? Oh, and does anyone else see the uncanny resemblence of the title to that of the tv show SEX in the City??? It BETTER be a coincidence!!! (Max and Tess going together and all!!)
later, Ranelle
~~~~~~~
"I love her. What can I say?"
"...You're hopeless."

[b]Yes! and what about Nikolas saying "love the hair - hope you win."
No, I think Courtney was just using a lewd metaphor for sex. ...

As for the hair, Michael's hair is a fright. Since I think WO was supposed to be a Halloween episode, I think it was a snide remark implying he's going to a costume party/contest. The implication is that Michael must have done something on purpose to make his hair look that bad. A gratuitous insult.[/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, I agree that Courntey was partly a lewd metaphor, but I think both these quotes (the Courtney and the Nicholas quote) were foreshadowing of the story line. I believe Courtney and Nicholas both knew that the dupes existed and were forthcoming adversaries for the Roswell podsters. I think the two sets of podsters were designed/created to be opponents in a game where only one set is supposed to survive - and THAT's what Nicholas was talking about, in his joking way - the battle ahead.

You know, the gods on Mt. Olympus (Twilo), and the pawns (podsters, skins, ss, etc.) down below...

Hi Zara

I very much agree with you and how you have stated this.

Chess.

Another thought. Neither 'side' is supposed to win. They were created to play a deadly game that find (or puts together) the source of power that someone else/some other agency wants. A game that has been played through the ages (ie, past lives).

Rosta

FM told Liz that "he, Michael, Isabel and TESS" made a complete set. Without Tess, they weren't as strong. He said *nothing* about Ava or the other podsters.

Which was kinda my point earlier about FM not mentioning the others.

So where are the NY4? What happened to them? Why didn't Max and the other know saobut them? Did Liz's lie do soemthing that changed THAT part of the future as well?

Inasmuch as I loved Future Max and wish I could take him home and keep him there, he didn't seem to be very knowledgeable. He was at fault, and missed, a couple of things we know for a fact are undeniable truths. As he told Liz, the fact that they cemented that early seems to have stopped their growth and quest for knowledge entirely! And this is good because it will be an undeniable argument for Liz to change her mind and go back to him (shortly, please, shortly!).

In their former timeline, they didn't go to Copper Summit, didn't destroy the husks, didn't travel to NY, didn't meet the Dupes and didn't find out the valuable information I hope Max learns next Monday.

Inasmuch as I loved Future Max and wish I could take him home and keep him there, he didn't seem to be very knowledgeable. He was at fault, and missed, a couple of things we know for a fact are undeniable truths. As he told Liz, the fact that they cemented that early seems to have stopped their growth and quest for knowledge entirely! And this is good because it will be an undeniable argument for Liz to change her mind and go back to him (shortly, please, shortly!).

In their former timeline, they didn't go to Copper Summit, didn't destroy the husks, didn't travel to NY, didn't meet the Dupes and didn't find out the valuable information I hope Max learns next Monday.
I still think that the events of Harvest would have happened if Max/Liz did cement their love. Think about it... Tess would have been a pretty upfront witness to their closeness. And Isabel had her own problems to worry about, and probably wouldn't have cared to much about Tess's isolation. I bet Harvest still would have happened. The Skins would have had the fake funeral, Mi/M would have still found out more from Courtney. It was Courtney that destroyed the new husks. My guess is Harvest would have happened pretty much like it did, but upon returning to Roswell, Tess would have packed her things and left. Which would have meant the *fireblast* would not have happened, which released the podsters from the Skins grip.

When future Max said they made a complete set, each balanced the other, I am sure he was speaking in the terms of "gifts" they all had. Sure, Tess's fireblast seemed to be a bit much, but Max's healings of Liz and Kyle are equally incrediable. We've just are more accustomed to the fact that he can do this. We still don't know much about the other's abilities.

The fact that the Dupes were not aware of the red giant's death may be important. Max thinks it's important. Liz thinks it's important. Why doesn't Lonnie/Rath/Ava think it's important? There is evidence that the red star is only a plot device to bring the dupes together... But then I have these questions?

1) Why does Max need an excuse to call a meeting, he's king right?
2) Where are the Valenti's?
3) Why take the time to try to explain something like a dying star (esp when facts are fudged).
4) The dupes were already on their way when Mr. Seligman (sp) gave the red giant lecture. A meeting was going to take place anyway.

Hi Qfanny. Thanks for the welcome! I'm just trying to get how the forum works so please excuse any goofs on my part. I remember that epi of original Trek and read some of that thread you mentioned.
1. good point. well maybe everyone was to busy to hang out. Maria was gonna sing and Michael had a dirtbike race for two things.
2. the sheriff was on a date with Maria's mom and kyle was meditating.
3. good point.
4. on my second watching I noticed it read "one week later" at the start of the classroom scene. when did the dupes start their trip to NM? was it just after killing Zan?

On the darker side of Roswell quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
...Neither 'side' [NY or NM podsters] is supposed to win. They were created to play a deadly game that find (or puts together) the source of power that someone else/some other agency wants. A game that has been played through the ages (ie, past lives)....brrr...
I'm afraid you're right, Rosta.

Interesting that we have New Mexico and New York. A coincidence, probably, but still fun with which to theorize and from which to draw analogies. For instance, New York was claimed/named for the Duke of York making conquests in a 'New' land. New Mexico was similarly a place of conquest by the Spanish of Mexico. Perhaps an analogy could be drawn between our podsters who have genetic material from Earth and the Spanish conquerors of New Mexico who had a lot of genetic material from the natives of Mexico. The NY Dupes OTOH claim to be more alien (like the conquerors of NY would have been).

Jamethiel "I shall believe."

You know, the gods on Mt. Olympus (Twilo), and the pawns (podsters, skins, ss, etc.) down below...

Ooooo. I hadn't thought of that. I still kinda think that the NY set are decoys, but that's an interesting wrinkle...
Hmmm.

Did anyone else think it might be significant that the NY bunch are emerging from the subway when we first see them? A portal marked Canal Street, if I remember right? And those EXIT ONLY and ONE WAY signs....

It reminds me that when we first saw Tess in the Evans house, she moved past a picture that looked like a tunnel. (A forest scene, actually, but the foliage gave the appearance of a tunnel.) Then there is the vision Liz picked up from Harding, of something like a tunnel....

Earlier, someone pointed out a poster in Max's room that showed a spark or lightning bolt. (The same poster was in Michael's room at the beginning of Missing.) It shows part of the Earth with a bit of the "Old World" on one side of the Atlantic Ocean and the "New World" on the other; on each side is a person with some kind of apparatus, and the "spark" jumping between, as if symbolizing something being transmitted and received.

-Was the red giant destroyed, or did it die naturally? Could it have been destroyed ahead of time as some sort of warning?
-The V constellation seems like an illusion to me. At first we were told that one of the "stars" was a planet, Venus. Now speculation leads to all 5 of the stars being seperate planets. Where does this put Venus? Along those lines, how far apart are these 5 planets? How fast do they travel through space, etc.? This is important, because it determines how often the actual V constellation forms and how long it stays. I would think that this supposedly important contellation is not even in the sky most of the year.
-I don't quite see where this Ava/Tess "switched" theory came from, but it doesn't make much sense to me. Ava's character hasn't been very well explored. It's easy to make a generalization, but that generalization is probably not going to be true.
-Somehow I don't think nearly all of the questions about the Dupes are going to be answered. Exactly why that is leaves room for speculation.

Shannon1979,
I like your explanation for why the NYers know so much more: because they are more alien and have more memory. This would support the Tess/Ava switch theory since Tess has memories that Max does not.

Ultima, be prepared to meet many speculations on these threads that have more basis in our imaginations than anywhere else.
On the constellation though, I've been puzzling that one for some time. Last season Michael talked about it being a map, while Max pointed out that things happened when Venus lined up with Aries to complete the "V." A constellation can be both stars and planets since they are described as seen from Earth. But if the 5 points of the V constellation are supposed to refer to the 5 planets, then either there is a space ship hovering a mile above the surface of Venus (where heat is tollerable) encased in a greenhouse of plants to make oxygen, and/or perhaps when viewed from Venus the constellation of Aries forms a V with Earth at the point. Any astronomers know the answer to this?

If there's one thing I've learned about Roswellian astronomy, it's that anything can happen.

Now, I don't know if this is the place to put this, but what the heck.

Anyone else notice that the soda machine in the UFO center is of the "Royal Crown" variety??

Other poster things.. when the dupes are talking about how to get Max to NY, there is a poster that says "Who are they?". But, the one that really struck me, was a shot of Tess leaning against a poster that said (I think) "Rods". What that could mean is beyond me, but the very existance of this poster in the UFO center is strange. This coupled with the rather unnecesary closeup of Tess lounging against a wall, made me think it might possibly have significance... any thoughts?

--KATE

And has does anyone know what the poster on the back of Max's bedroom door is? It's a man's face with a runner superimposed. If I didn't have such poor reception, I could read it when it's paused. GraceKel, are you and your new VCR back from Turkey?

Hi dragonlady!

Welcome to the SciFi Threads! You have found a wonderful place to express your opinions on the scifi element.

quote:Originally posted by dragonlady:
The writers are trying to get the sf addict to watch Roswell this season w/ a little more scifi in the mix...BUT if they dont correct the mind numbing loose ends that this years shows have made, they will be loosing the scifi-ers after a few epis
With the sofisticated sci-fi shows on TV now, die-hard sf-ers will turn away in distain if the obvious lack of continuity is not repaired.

I think each of us can offer examples of "mind numbling loose ends" but Ron Moore did say in his interview that Roswell had a tighter continuity than Star Trek. And Roswell has an additional problem that the storyline is suppose to be set in the present day. That would me no futuristic devices to explain away logical holes, (just alien devices we see once and a while without any explanations).

dragonlady (and anyone else that wants to answer) what do you think Ron Moore meant in his statement? It seems to me none of the season one loose ends have been tidied up and now we have more questions. I am famaliar with all the season one theories (on maxcedo's behalf) and there's not one that seems answered.

Welcome to the SciFi threads!

I think you have an interesting point that hasn't been answered. In fact, I'm not sure if the questions has been asked before (recently). But my perspective is that the 5 ruling planets and the V constellation are symbolic to one another. I think it would be a faulty assumption to really think Venus is one of these planets. Also, regarding the movement of the planets, (Starbox, are you lurking? Might need help) the V constellation first appeared in Blind Date. Before it that we knew the "V" from the cave wall after Michael light it up like a Christmas tree. Blind Date gives us a time stamp and Four Squares was suppose to be late May originally. (The timeline is really messed up.) I don't think that the "V" constellation can be viewed from Feb to May. So the fact that we are given it's existance in Feb may suggest that there is another, constellation in existance. And that could be the 5 planets of Twilo. Just a thought.

In our skies, Aries could not play a role in the V in April-May, that's when the sun is in Aries, i.e. in that season Aries is up at noon, not at night. Venus does move into each constellation of the Zodiac (including Aries) about once a year, but she cannot linger for weeks in the same place, nor leave and return in half a year.

Well, science is empirical, and empirically it seems clear by now that Roswellian astronomy is thoroughly fictional. The conjectures I made long ago based partly on the story and partly on textbook science have all failed. This is mythology--the laws of gravitation and mechanics aside, the planets and stars are there to help deliver the story. So now I look for connections between the story and itself, or other stories.

I have now seen Balance and you are right. Liz does see the "V" constellation. I am glad you were able to clear this up. And I like how you apply the rather strained facts of science to the fiction of Roswell. Your example should be followed by all.

Max and Liz saw the three stars of Aries on the computer star map. (Our Aries likewise is conventionally rendered as a triangle of three stars. A smallish triangle, about the size of Britain on the world map, not that huge-looking thing on the computer -- that's dramatic license.) To these three stars we add Venus and get five? A fourth star had to come from somewhere. Maybe Tess is the fourth star, Liz is Venus, and all of them are needed.

Is it Monday Night yet?

Whose to say Ava is necessarily good. Maybe she didn't want to go to the Convention because of Zan OR maybe she was "elected" to stay behing and keep an eye on the others. To keep them in the dark about what's really go on.

Either way I think she might help lead the others to Lonny, Rath, Max, and Tess.

Bandbabe

Bandbabe

quote: Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian
Another thought. Neither 'side' is supposed to win. They were created to play a deadly game that find (or puts together) the source of power that someone else/some other agency wants. A game that has been played through the ages (ie, past lives).

quote: Originally posted by Shapeshifter
So, if the elements (podsters) of either set are interchangable, then right now there is a complete set in NY and an incomplete set in NM. If this were a Chess game, and I was the enemy, I would go for the one and only King if it was possible, since that's the goal. But if that wasn't possible, I might try to knock off a knight or similarly ranked piece that was not well defended. But in NM, there are all the human allies.

Zara, Rosta and Shapeshifter, I think you’re right. I like the whole chess game idea. Two sets of royalty designed to compete or destroy each other for the “prize” by some omnipotent third party. On a much more trivial level, I see the dupe story line being literally killed off in the next few eps. In MTD we were instantly down to just one Max. I wont be in the least surprised if Lonnie or Rath or both of them don’t make it all the way through MitC. Which leaves us with just Ava and Tess… As was mentioned at the start of this thread, one thing to do with a dupe is to play a dichotomy game. The good version vs. the bad version., weak vs. strong etc.. A common resolution is to bring the two personas back together in one body. I wonder if we will see something like that with Ava and Tess. The one thing we can be sure of is that Ava will survive MitC. Can't wait for tonight.

SF

ROTFLMAO !!!
Hey, if they have a Halloween ep., and (supposedly) a Christmas ep., maybe an April Fools' Day episode?

Any plot suggestions?

In general though, there are going to be fans who like the 'bad' guys, and that's okay. For instance, there's been a lot of discussion about whether Michael is a good or bad boyfriend for Maria. All can express themselves as long as it's not bashing (which the mods do not allow).
Hope that gives you a little peek into a window with a different view.

P.S. Whoops! I didn't answer your question about the "Switched" theory. We love to dream up theories. Season 1 we had a Switched Orb Theory going (read about it at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell ). The main reason I see for supporting the switched Tess/Ava theory is that Tess knows a lot more about what's going on, as do the NYers. But then supposedly that's because Nasedo told her stuff.

I had a thought on the humanity of the two sets of aliens. We know one set is more human (NM) than the others (NY). We're led to believe at least one set is defective.

But what if niether set is _technically_ defective?

Think of it like this: The people on the home planet did not know exactly what conditions their beloved four would face. Therefore, they engineered two sets of pods, containing different amounts of humanity. They could not know the benefits/disadvantages of human DNA, so they made two versions, figuring that one set would have a better chance than the other.

The human DNA, though, blocked the ability of past memories to come out (any ideas why?) so as a safeguard, they left a book and a message to guide them.

The Granolith was then placed in the rural area where it would be able to stay hidden. Thus in this theory, neither set is defective and the Granolith has nothing to do with who was the "real" 4.

Let me know what you think!

Interesting point, a good one I think...

about the book... if we assume it is valid and not a fabrication of Nasedo, then it does seem to point to our podsters being the "correct" ones, since the book certainly not depict piercings and mohawks...Unless the dupes have a similar book that shows that they have fulfilled their appearance destiny, that indicates to me that something has gone awry there. This is of course, all assuming the book is valid... which it might not be... who knows. I'd LOVE for them to go back and try and decipher that book a bit.. we can't be the only one's who remember it and try to figure out its symbols!!

--KATE