1) THE IMPORTANCE OF HUMAN DNA (OR--WANT TO LIVE BEYOND 50?). Well--we've long questioned on this thread the importance of having bioengineered life forms for our podsters--tonight we found out. Human DNA is a prerequisite for alien life on earth--or at least for life after 50 without the granolith!!! Why? Is the answer to be found in alien biology? Earthly radiation? Any ideas?

2) THE GRANOLITH. What is it? In common English a granolith is a stepping stone--a pavement stone. But in the roawellian universe it appears to be a type of power source. Or at least that is what it looked like to me. What did you think it was?

And what about its location? Was it "hidden" behind the pods? Or did it have something to do with sustaining the pods?

3) WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BEAUTIFUL "VALANDRA"? Well--they really pulled one over on me with this one. Izzy is the one person I never thought was the traitor. Of course that was in the previous life. But it looks like we are laying the grounds for a second betrayal here--think back on all the times she's felt left out. Do you really think that history is going to repeat itself?

4) ROSWELL'S ALIEN POPULATION. I think we can count at least three "skins" in Roswell: a) Courtney we knew of (though she is really an odd one isn't she?); b)the congresswoman, and; c) Grant (remember that cut?).

Why was Nesedo/Harding the only one they were afraid of? I can see not killing either one of the female aliens (because they are not sure which one was their former ally), but why not kill Max or Michael?

BTW--it doesn't look like skins like Tabasco does it?

5) TWO ALIEN SPECIES IN ROSWELL. If we can believe the congresswoman...we now have TWO alien species confirmed in Roswell. Earlier theories of a civil war seem to be mistaken. Or at least I think we can assume that now--did you "hear" that the way I did?

Poor Izzy...Happy Birthday Baby...sniff!

Well folk--what did you think?

LSS

I did like the sci-fi aspect of the story though... I thought the way Isabel discovered her new power and enhanced the power she already had was done perfectly.

But that DNA bit of inf. was kind of weird... which means that Nasedo would have died soon anyway, cause he didn't have the human DNA in his body... huh?

and what about what Isabel saw when she touched Grant's blood... it wasn't clear to me... but does that mean that he's an alien too?

LSS: As always, thanks for starting the thread. Tons of things to talk about, although, I'm still laughing too hard over Alex's strip scene! I read in the spoilers that it was there, but boy, surprises never cease. Lot's of funny cute lines.

Valandra/Isabel: When Whitaker says, "History always repeats itself," how the heck would she know??? Valandra decided to join the opposite side for love, and the enemy won. This to me implies that even in their former lives, the issues of free will existed. If the Valandra story is true, then the Twilonese definately believe that free will is important, and that you can choice to overcome your past mistakes. Maybe that's another reason why humanity was choosen. (To bad that Whitaker didn't give us the name of the home planet. I guess planet Twilo will have to do for a while.)

Doesn't the Valandra story seem to be what is almost happening with Max?

There was tons of alien powers in this episode. I wish I could comment on all of them, but I noticed how remarkably similiar the skins powers were to the podster powers; making drinks out of thin air, super strength, telekensis, etc. I sort of understood the skins to be the same race as the podsters, only they were not recreated into humans. They have to take skins to survive Earth. Whitaker seems very jealous of this fact. When she was telling Isabel how she betrayed her family by loving her son, this naturally implied that her son was like Isabel... Of course, in the SCIFI world, that doesn't necessarly have to be true.

Whitaker seemed to be something of a political force on planet TWILO. When she said, "WE RULE-WE WON" it seemed like her own personal triumph! Remember how I thought the line she said to Pierce, "Politics is the reason why you slept with me in the first place." was very important and big foreshadowing. I think this adds weight to my idea.

What I did not buy was Whitaker being able to control a high voltage line like that. She tore it off its post and then used it as a weapon against Isabel and Tess. If that sucker was live, she would have been dead squirrel!!! It makes you wonder how much energy/power comes from the podsters. And according to Max, they are all getting strong. Do you suppose there is a limit to their abilities????

Well, the VCR got done marking the commercials and I am going to go watch the eppy again.

quote:LSS asked
2) THE GRANOLITH. What is it? In common English a granolith is a stepping stone--a pavement stone. But in the roawellian universe it appears to be a type of power source. Or at least that is what it looked like to me. What did you think it was?

And what about its location? Was it "hidden" behind the pods? Or did it have something to do with sustaining the pods?

I got the impression the granolith would give the Skins the DNA they needed to survive on Earth. I know this doesn't seem terribly scientific. But if true, could it also "change" regular humans into podsters? Advance their brain capacities so they can be highly evolved humans. I think you know where I am going with this.

I didn't get the impression that Skins don't like Tabasco -- I thought that Courtney was just remarking on it as unusual (which it is) and using it as a way to make the point "I know you're an alien..."

Did anyone else think that Courtney "did" something to the drinks? I was waiting for someone to be poisoned. The cake, too, once she was left alone to ice it.

The granolith. Why do the Skins want it so much? To sustain them? To give them ultimate power over the Universe? To get them back "home"? Did Nacedo know it was there, and if so, why didn't he tell the others? (Speaking of Nacedo -- since he was pure alien also, did he, too, have only an Earth-life of 50 years?)

I am hoping like heck that the stuff about Isabel betraying the others in her former life either isn't true or DOES NOT repeat itself. That would be awful.

OK, so I guess I didn't contribute much to this thread except more questions. But maybe it'll inspire other people...

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
Doesn't the Valandra story seem to be what is almost happening with Max? [/B]

Yes and No.

Yes: Alien attraction across species' lines

No: Overt betrayal in the midst of war
(Max--if you want to cast it in this way-- is faced with the possibility of covert betrayal IF he abandons his duties. I do not interpret it in this way, but I can see how others could.)

quote: There was tons of alien powers in this episode. I wish I could comment on all of them, but I noticed how remarkably similiar the skins powers were to the podster powers; making drinks out of thin air, super strength, telekensis, etc.

Yeah there were. And Izzy's action with the door was a bit unusual for her as well.

quote: Whitaker seemed to be something of a political force on planet TWILO. When she said, "WE RULE-WE WON" it seemed like her own personal triumph! .

Maybe. Or it can simply be the collective sense of the pronoun. Kind of hard to believe that leaders would be sent to a far away planet to hunt down fugitives though. Maybe she's military? But the really interesting question now is...who inherits those files? Also--having a skin in that position hints at quite a sophisticated level of infiltration. I wonder how many other skins hold public offices? Or do you think Roswell was just "lucky"?

quote:What I did not buy was Whitaker being able to control a high voltage line like that. She tore it off its post and then used it as a weapon against Isabel and Tess. If that sucker was live, she would have been dead squirrel!!! .

Okay science types...is QFanny correct? Would that insulation be sufficient to protect the holder? Is this bad Science (and thus bad SF)?

quote: And according to Max, they are all getting strong. Do you suppose there is a limit to their abilities????

Well we know that drugs can inhibit their powers (White Room) and we know that the size/number of the target can (Tess/skin and bones]. I wonder if distance can as well? Was Tess limited in her "reach" to Izzy because she was hurt? Or because she was far away? Or both?

Nice to hear from you QFanny!

LSS

Okay, I liked this ep, definitely full of "surprises".

It sounds to me like there were/are two alien races that were at war. If we are to believe Whitaker it appears that Valandra/Iz had betrayed her people to join with Whitaker and her race. I don't quite understand why Whitaker would have to "save" Iz from the other three by killing Nasedo. Save her from what? Is she trying to get Iz to repeat history - not allowing her to use free will as Qfanny states?

Then Whitaker states, "You had a great love and for him, for us, you betrayed your brother, your race. You sacrified him. You sacrificed everyone, even yourself." This leads me to believe that Val/Iz was in love with someone from this other race (not her betrothed, Michael). You know, it kind of has a Romeo & Juliet theme doesn't it? Maybe there was some kind of civil war going on b/t these two races and she crossed over to the other side. Whoa - so many questions!

Also, the power that Iz had when she vaporized Whitaker. I noticed that she was very timid, sacred even when she was running from Whitaker, but as soon as she heard and saw Max & Michael she gained some kind of strength, a boldness and just gave it to that Whitaker. Interesting...

The Granolith - it appeared to be hidden behind the pods and yes, it could possibly be a power source. Maybe it kept the podsters in their stasis while they developed.

I'm having to lean towards the idea that history will not repeat itself. I could be completly wrong, but just because their present selves are made up of previous alien essence all of their experiences, their enviroment, their human relationships is going to effect who they are today. It changes them. I don't think a person can be programmed to turn out a specific way. All of those things I mentioned shape and form a person, not just one thing (essence) but many things. Maybe this is why the 4 were sent to earth and cloned - for a different outcome.

One last thing, I do not think Grant is who he claims he is. I mean, how did he get Tess' phone number? Why was Tess out in the middle of nowhere to begin with? Was she lured their, by Grant? That cut on his neck could have been given to him by Tess in a struggle. Hmmm....

Okay, enough from me. Curious to see what the rest of ya'll think.

My first thought is some kind of portal.

Their spaceship crashed in 47 and yet Max and Isabel's "mother" said that they should come back. How? Build a space ship? Or go through a portal?

Of course the question is, if there is a portal then why use the space craft...it would be easy enough to say (since Ron Moore worked on DS9) that it's some sort of device that creates a worm hole of some sort. In order for a worm hole to work the two points in space would have to connect. So perhaps the aliens sent a device to earth that could connect. Sort of the Stargate idea.

This would explain the senator's desperation to find it if she had reached something close to her end on earth. Wouldn't her life be extended if she could return home?

What if without the Granolith, the aliens (good and bad) are stranded on earth?

Just wild speculation on my part.

There is so much to explore about this episode.

About the Granolith....
So the skins need the Granolith to go beyond 50? Then it must be an energy source or rejuvenator of some sort. It was fairly large, so could there be something inside? Strange that Granolith means "stepping stone", while DNA is often referred ro as a "ladder" for life--- two descriptions that suggest being led somewhere. Personally, I think the Granolith is meant to be an ominous object like the monolith in 2001.

Two alien species yes. But why do they both turn to dust when they die? Nasedo crumbled away, and Whitaker became ash. Coincidence? or are we looking at a connected species. Valandra fell in love with the enemy, so the two species must have co-existed at some point.

The betrayal....
So Isabel is the re-incarnation of a traitor(Valandra)? She apparently betrayed her brother for the one she loves----who was what? A skin? I thought Michael was her past love? But we all know that he is not the descendant of a Skin. So does this mean that Isabel's former self(Valandra) was "sleeping with the enemy" behind her lovers back?

So what are we to make of this? Was everybody back on the home world having affairs? Did past-life Max have someone else too? If so, that might explain why he doesn't really feel connected with his destined bride Tess.

Very confusing.

3) WHO'S AFRAID OF THE BIG BEAUTIFUL "VALANDRA"? Well--they really pulled one over on me with this one. Izzy is the one person I never thought was the traitor. Of course that was in the previous life. But it looks like we are laying the grounds for a second betrayal here--think back on all the times she's felt left out. Do you really think that history is going to repeat itself?

Isn't that one of the central themes of Roswell -- Destiny vs. Free Will. Because something was planned or existed in their previous life does that mean that is the only possible future?

**Minor Spoiler Alert**
*

*

*
I think this may explain the trip the humans will take to a fortune teller as well in a spoiler. If they have their fortunes fortold. . .is it foreshadowing? Misleading? Is that the way it HAS to be or the way it *COULD* be?

I don't think there will be a quick or easy answer for the question. It seems to be developing into one of the themes of the show.

quote:Originally posted by LSS:
Okay science types...is QFanny correct? Would that insulation be sufficient to protect the holder? Is this bad Science (and thus bad SF)?

Probably not sufficient, but you only get electrical sparks from a completed circuit. It seemed to me that the whole installation was "dead", electrically. Note the cobwebs in the control rooms.
CW could have ignited the end of the cable, and been using it as a torch. Copper does oxidise, and it's an exothermic reaction. She might have had to use alien "magic" to light it, and keep it lit, but there's chemical energy available there.

Loved the special effect: little bits of Skin floating around - grisly cool!

Oh, and we have a resoution about Michael and the alien "paperweight". If Michael was her beloved, then he's a Skin (unlike the rest of them), and the gadget reacts to Skin essences. Which suggests that the possessors of the paperweights are "good aliens", Twilonians fighting the Skins.

Wow!

Makes you wonder if there is anything left of the home planet.

And what happens if the podsters beat the Skins? If the homeworld is gone, are they supposed to take over Earth?

Don't get me wrong. I love Max, but he can be a bit of a tyrant sometimes. Both Max and Michael were treating Isabel as a "princess" and not as an equal. She really kicked a$$ in this ep. But I hope nothing happens to cause her supposed history of betraying her brother to happen again.

I wonder what all that granolith does and how long Isabel hides it.

I think there's some kind of other importance to Isabel. She has to occupy some other significance besides 'sister to the king.' Yes, going over to the dark side would be a huge betrayal of her family, but if that's all it was, why would the Skins be so determined to separate her now, if they still didn't need her for some reason? She possesses something extremely necessary--like maybe she's the only one who can work the granolith or something--otherwise, the Congresswomen wouldn't have looking for her *in particular*. Any of the Royal Four would do, if you were just looking for information.

Ugh, I'm not sure I'm making any sense here. Does anybody understand what I'm trying to say?

tanchel

Can somebody please tell me if Isabelle is actually this Valandra person. Whitaker didn't even know, she said it was 50/50. My reason's for asking are these.

1) When she pumped Liz on the last episode for information on her love life with Max, Liz told her that someone from his past came between them- romantically- her name being Tess. Well if Whitaker knows that Max is the leader (big if) than the reason she took Tess was she thought that she was Valandra. Is this because Valandra was involved with the King as his love interest
and not his sister.

2)Whitaker believes that Valandra knows where the granolith is and because of her past and will tell her. But none of them seamed to have remembered, not even Tess. So how could she have told Whitaker anyway?

3)We don't really know what Tess truly remembers about the past, the others don't seem to have recalled anything.

4)Whitaker says that Valandra betrayed her people, her brother and herself for this great love. But she doesn't specify who the "Brother" actually is. She doesn't say the king, she only says "brother". We all know that Max and Isabelle are sister and brother, but we have no idea about Tess's family or even really anything about Tess.

So my question is can someone clarify this for me. Please. Or am I just way out there. Thanks.

The Granolith: First of all isnt it in a pretty obvious place? When Whitaker first mentioned it to Iz I thought, here we go, it will take the rest of the freakin season to find out where this damn "granolith" is. But 5 minutes later Isabel "discovers" it in the pod chamber. Shouldnt the Skins have looked there first? Or do they know that little about the Pod Squad? It's surprising, they've been on earth for 50 years and know next to nothing about M/M/I/T. And why didnt Nasedo mention anything about this granolith? He had no idea of it's existence either?

I'm sorry but I just think that huge "thing" would have been hidden in a much less obvious place. That cave is ground central for the pod squad. I dont know, I just think it's just a little to convenient.

But ok, going with the flow. So now they know about the granolith and the Skins (or whenever Isabel decides to spill the beans). What happens now? What do they do with the granolith? Do they have to guard it to make sure no Skins discover it? And does it have any other kind of value to the pod squad other than keeping it away from their enemies?

And what is Courtney's deal? What exactly where her dealings with Whitaker(what were those pictures about?) And where does this leave her now that the Congress woman is dead? What is her motivation? I'm still confused. She is so close to the pod squad at this point it would be soooo easy to kill them. Is she looking for the granolith too? Is she coming up upon her 50th year?

And who the hell is Grant Sorenson? Is he really a Skin, or is that too obvious now and the writers will give us another "surprise again"?

Wow this episode was so full of information I still havent wrapped my brain around it. Have to go back and watch it again.

Yeah my second SF post

I immediately thought of those 'energy outlines' (for lack of a better term) that appeared to be stalking Michael and Max, near Pierce's grave and at school. If we assume the energy was being radiated by skins (or perhaps was a skin in its pure form), then they may be just big 'ole bundles of energy and instead of killing the CW, Isabel only fried her skin.

And does anyone else find it odd that Iz was able to kill the congresswoman when she was able to kill Nasedo and beat the crap out of Tess. I would have thought that Nasedo and Tess would have had far more knowledge and control of their powers than Iz has. Would that mean that the blood royals (Max and Iz - not Michael and Tess, they married in) have exceptional powers. But then again they were created with human DNA which would mean they are the same, so I go back to my original thought - if Nasedo couldn't kill her, and Tess couldn't even defend herself, then how did Iz kill her so easily?

Well, there you go!
Puncture Whitaker with something, and she goes BOOM !

Does anyone think Courtney will turn out to be a good guy, even though she's a Skin? They're talking too much in front of her; so they've got to kill her or make her an ally.

When Whitaker says the word "race" not species. There are those here on Earth still refer to blacks, asians, caucasians, Native Americans as different races. I think that is how Whitaker is using the word here.

As for the "dead squirrel" comment I made. If the wire is live, it needs a ground. Now, I have probably more training in the electrical field than most of you. But I am not an expert. My training was as a CSA for a power company, and I can assure you, NEVER TOUCH A BROKEN WIRE!!!! I don't know if I have the scientific background to explain it. If any lineman wants to help me out, great! But electricity needs a ground. The "dead squirrel" question is two fold. First, is the wire live? Second, is it grounded. The reason why critters get fried on high wires is usually because they somehow manange to become a ground for an electrical current. Now given the size and that wire, it probably carries thousands volts of current. If the wire breaks, I'm hoping that a oil transformer will trip and close the curcuit down. But if not, then you have a live wire that needs a ground to close a curcuit. I strongly doubt that the insulated casing on the wire would be enough protect the Congresswoman from the voltage! I once had someone on the phone that was stuck in a car with a live wire on them and I told them to not leave their car. The tires on the car were provided in the ground. The lineman was about to deactivate the service for this person. If this person had to get out of the car, then the only way to escape electroncution to jump free from the car. The person would not be able to touch the car or the ground at the same time or -- more dead squirrel.

I know that I probably got the "science" part of this explanation wrong, but believe, the stories I've heard about real people getting hurt and dying is enough to make me roll my eyes a bit at CW!

Hey, I've noticed that Maria and I think it was Courtney are caring around a big ol' bottle of blue liquid. You see it with Maria in Ask Not when she leaves Max after lunch. Tonight I saw it again, with a different character, I'm pretty sure it was Courtney. That's been bothering me because it does not look like a beverage of sorts.

sorry for the ramblings. AMX or Palomino, can you also add your scientific insight to the electric curcuit discussion!

It's good to be back. I was in Joplin and had no WB network last Monday. Needless to say, I was very happy I know how to program my VCR!!!!!!

Hi wherly!

Welcome to the SF threads as a poster!

I think you have raised an excellent point. We know that the congresswoman changed her mind and now thinks that Izzy is the traitor from her former life. But we are never told what happened to evoke this change of heart.

What we do know is that Tess had been missing for several hours and that during that time she was roughed up a bit. We are led to believe that, during that time, something happened to change the congresswoman's mind. If Tess was made to tell her version of destiny (aka Tess as Max's wife) perhaps that would be sufficient?

BTW--we are discussing how to tell one podster from another. It occured to me that the momogram said that you would know the enemy by the evil within. Don't you find it odd she never mentioned empty skins? Even if the enemy did not shed their skins on the home planet, surely the good alien's spy network would have alerted them to this Earth specific "clue". Nesedo/Harding recognized that skin right away!

Good to see you posting, wherly!

:SS

You may be right. It depends on how sophisticated our writers are here. If we are talking different life forms, then we are technically into "species" not merely "races". But as you imply, even our common understandings of the term "race" are under sociological fire now days!

Our writers have not terribly impressed me on their semantic expertise, but you are right it is open to debate.

BTW--Nesedo/Harding did not have human DNA but didn't seem to have that 50 yr limitation (or never mentioned it if he did). But he did have the granolith.

Whoever mentioned the idea of the granolith/portal idea (sorry I just can't remember who brought it up without looking back) brought up an interesting idea. It would be classic SF and an interesting plot element. BUT if the skins got there without it to begin with, why would they need it to get off planet? I'd like to "go with" the portal/granolith idea but I need more convincing. The way it was pulsating simply remined me of a power source.

LSS

Karyn~

Hi Reggie!

I wonder if you might be on to something. Let me simply say that I think she is acting strangely--far too intimately with our podsters without any overt clues to her "evilness."

You know I had the strangest feeling when I listened to her story about the cw's "son".
Either it was just a cover story, or it may have been the truth--that i, Courtney may represent a teenage skin who is rebelling against her own culture. I don't know. I didn't bring it up because it is kind of "out there" (for me that is--I tend to be more conservative in my speculation). But I did think about it and questioned where we are going with this character. Of course, we can't be going too far. Doesn't she have a 6 eppy contract?

LSS

And wouldn't you think his first order of business with Max would be to tell him everything he knows, not only for the pod squads safety but to help them save their planet. That's why they are here isn't it? Drag things out to keep us tuning in, fine, but please don't leave these glaring holes that make me go huh?

And I'm not that hard to please, congresswoman grabing electric line and not getting fried- fine. But the holes especially with Nasedo's character, just make me think Aliens have absolutely no common sense at all.

Karyn~

As I understand it:

Isabel = earth name for bioengineered entity

Valandra = name for alien entity on home planet
**************************

Valandra and a skin = couple on home planet

Isabel and ?????? = couple on earth

I think we are being led to believe that:

Grant = alien skin lover from home planet

Why?

--everyone is against the Grant/Izzy match
--Isabel likes Grant and is sexually assertive in a way that she never was with poor Alex

You know...if you took out the element of betrayal, having Izzy love a skin is truly a Romeo/Juliet match!

LSS

I will never understand why they constructed Nesedo/Harding's character in the above way. You are right--his reluctence to share info with the podsters is a baffling plot hole.

LSS

I am enthralled with the new possibilities and mysteries and suspense...GO Roswell!! :-)

wherly, I'm confused about the sis/bro thing too. But I think we're supposed to be confused. Fans who think they've got it figured out are probably going to be wrong.
quote:Originally posted by katie-scarlett:
Valandra (I'm sorry but that name is just so cheesy I get giggly just thinking about it Glad I wasn't the only one!

Okay, I'll shut up now. Sorry to be such a thread hog. I just ***REALLY*** appreciated the ep.

Just one more (please?):I bet Liz & Tess get to be friends somehow through this.

1. How did Nasedo NOT know that Whitaker was a "skin" when he was "diddling" her all summer? Wouldn't he have sensed something? or at least notice a few sheddings?

2. How did Tess get into so much trouble? Was it just Whitaker that overtook her? or were there others involved? Also, it seemed that Whitaker and Courtney were in town so who would that leave? Grant?

3. Just how much do the "skins" know about the Podsters? Wouldn't they share info. immediately with each other and thus know the identity of the Podsters? If so, why play with them for so long and not attack? Especially when they are alone 1on1 with them i.e. Grant and Isabelle in the desert and Courtney and Michael in the Crashdown.

4. Why are there pictures of Courtney in Whitaker's office? Could there be insubordination between the "skins" ranks? Or is Courtney just flirting with Michael to get his guard down? If not, why aren't she and Whitaker working together?

5. Why does Whitaker blab about important details such as the "skins" 50 year weakness to Isabelle? And what's the importance of the Granolythe? How do they know of its existence? Are the "skins" incapable of using human DNA to extend their longevity on Earth?

Many questions...hopefully answers will be forthcoming...

HeaT

Maybe Whitaker changed her mind and decided she was after Isabel, because Tess (after being beaten and tortured) betrayed Isable once again to save herself.

This is why Michael was willing to leave Tess behind in (was it Four Square?). The three of them emerged from the pods and Max wanted to wait for Tess, but Michael insisted on leaving. On some level he still remembered her betrayal.

Maybe Tess and Michael were royals from their race (the skins), and Max and Isabel were royals from another?

Oh the possibilities in the world of Sci-Fi!

I believe that Whitaker lied to Isabel to undermind the pod squad from the inside.

Someone(Tess)betrayed them and Whitaker couldn't get the info she wanted because Tess might feel guilty. I mean that excuse of going to Jensens to buy a present was lame along with Grant's story.

Hmmmm... I have to watch the ep again.

Breathless- your theory would fit very well because of their mutual animosity towards Tess. Even Isabel said "we still can't trust them" them meaning Nasedo and Tess in WR.

First off, I wouldn't worry too much about the details in earth science, like carbon dating and high voltage. They can fudge a bit there (everyone else does). It's the science/backstory of their own making that is of primary concern.

HeaT When Pierce/Nasedo is diddling CW all summer, that doesn't mean they were doing it continuously. Gotta stop once in a while, get a sandwich, vote on legislation, etc. Especially since it was supposed to be on the QT, it's believable that they got together in secret every once in a while, and managed to fool each other without knowing it.

I read the situation like this: there are at least two groups. The precise "race" distinction is not clear (just as the word's common usage), but only the royal four got the full reincarnate-as-human treatment.

The Skins probably don't have to grow skins on their home planet, but have the ability to do so to protect themselves when they visit places where the environment is not compatible. This is probably a handy ability for a space-faring race; TV-wise it has the bonus of being somewhat creepy. A 50-year limit is more than enough for a visit or even long-term study, but time is running out.

So Skins have been coming to earth in waves since the '47 crash, perhaps in an effort to track/hunt down the royal four.

The royal four were the young royalty of the competing race. None of them are Skins -- why reincarnate them? The Skins know who they were, but don't know for sure who got reincarnated into whom.

Although Max and Isabel were raised as siblings, that doesn't prove to a Skin coming into the situation that Max was the leader and (more to the point) that Isabel is really the leader's sister, Valandra.

What seems pretty clear in hindsight from Ask Not is that Liz pointed CW in Tess's direction. When it turned out she wasn't Valandra -- and I'm not clear how CW knew that for sure, maybe just good old-fashioned torture? -- she waited for another female with alien powers to show up, which by elmination must be her.

I believe that Valandra could have betrayed her people for the love of a Skin; that is, that CW did not lie. It makes for a more interesting story and character. As for history having to repeat itself, we all know that's baloney.

Oh, and how did CW kill Nasedo when she was easily dispatched by Isabel? Well, no one said CW killed Nasedo by herself. They may have ganged up on him.

//Ken

Okay - one observation: if you watch the party scene carefully, the clear implication of the camera-shot-choices is that Courtney Skin is somehow responsible for, or at least aware of, Izzy's 'Tess' flashes. If you accept that, then the notion that she might be really on the podsters side, while not entirely blown out of the water, certainly is going to need a lot more evidence than we've seen so far.

Second observation: Note the comment by CW Skin that the film 'Run Lola Run' tells the story of her life. In the movie a smart young women with an incrediably boneheaded boyfriend, who she loves to distraction just the same, is put in the position of having to pull off a small miracle (actually come up with a large amount of money - but I don't think thats the point) in order to save his skin. She actually fails and ends up dying - twice in the movie - before she gets it right on the third try. Might say something about the history of CW on the home planet?

Third observation: so far this season we've been presented with four possible skins - CW, Courtney, Grant & Dep. Hanson. If Grant is a skin, it is a good bet that he at least collaborated in the abduction of Tess; he had no alibi and he already admitted to the Sheriff & Max that he spoke to her and knew where she was planning on going. There is also the matter of the cut & flash that Iz got from it. If I had to guess at this point, I'd agree with those who say that Grant is a skin, and he is infact Iz's "great love." At any rate she does seem irrationally drawn towards him. (Like Max was drawn to Liz?)

So, lets stop counting observations, okay?

About the difference between podsters and skins and good aliens and bad aliens and nesedo's.
Yikes! its getting so that you need a score card just to keep the players straight. At the time of Max's first death, it appears that on the home planet there were at least two intelligent species, which I am referring to as good aliens and bad aliens. What we learned with 'surprise' is that the bad aliens cannot live on earth without artificial support, which comes in the form of 'skins.' (It seemed to me that CW refered to the skin she wore almost as if one might refer to a high pressure diving suit - with some distain, a necessary hindrance.) We also know now that the skins wear out - or do they die? - after about 50 years, and when the skin dies the alien it hosts can no longer survive. As to the good Aliens, well we know that one way they can survive, indeed thrive, on earth is via the bioengineered podster approach we see in Max etal. Another way they may be able to come is through the nesedo life(?) form. We actually know very little about nesedo as a life form - is he an example of the good alien, or is he another bioengineered specimen, perhaps a failed prototype? Yet to be seen. Irregardless - none of this tells us anything about how the good aliens and bad aliens are related, or not - or what the society they lived in was like - ie what the social roles of the good and bad aliens were pre-war. (As someone pointed out - the story of the Valandra, if true, clearly implies some social interaction between the groups.)

quote:Originally posted by HeaT:
A few things...

1. How did Nasedo NOT know that Whitaker was a "skin" when he was "diddling" her all summer? Wouldn't he have sensed something? or at least notice a few sheddings?

Okay, the question of shapeshifting among skins has been left unaddressed - but a couple of clues that it is a possibility come to mind. First, the remarkable tranformation of the Hanson character over the summer seems to suggest at least that he might have been replaced. Second, Michael apparently stared right at a skin in 'flesh and bones,' but never saw it. Neither is conclusive, but along with your question, it does bring the issue to fore. If the skins are moldable to mimic others, its possible that CW Skin was never created until after Nesedo was done away with.
quote:Originally posted by HeaT:

3. Just how much do the "skins" know about the Podsters? Wouldn't they share info. immediately with each other and thus know the identity of the Podsters? If so, why play with them for so long and not attack? Especially when they are alone 1on1 with them i.e. Grant and Isabelle in the desert and Courtney and Michael in the Crashdown.

The Podsters don't seem to be subject to the same kind of attacks that did in Nesedo, else why would CW Skin have had to resort to the makeshift weapon. Further, the Podsters seem to be pretty darn formidable in one-on-one combat - once Iz decided to fight, it was all over for CW very quickly. What do they know? Well, they seem to have mis-identified Max as the heir to Michael-Alien, probably because saving Liz seemed like a spontaneous, rash thing to do, in other words more Michael-like. Another thing - they seem more concerned with getting control of the "granolith" than anything else - till they find it, they can't afford to kill anyone. What is a granolith - so far I've heard portal and power source mentioned, also maybe something to do with translating between species - ala podsters. Another possibility is weapon - but I don't feel like we've got enough clues to even guess at this point.

Tim

Oooh, this had not occurred to me. But it makes sense. After all, "Pierce" wasn't really Pierce, but Nacedo, who took over his form after Pierce's death. So the same could easily have been done with CW... The question is -- when? It was bugging me last night that CW should have been able to find (and learn about) the podsquad long ago if she's been their congresswoman and thus lived right in the area! I mean, didn't the hubbub over Liz's healing, and the UFO sighting in ITTW tip her off?

I still want to know -- how did the Skins get to EArth, and why did they come? Are those other beings we saw with the signalling devices at the end of Destiny Skins? Or yet another race?

Why did it take so long for the Skins to find the podsquad? It's been 10 years, for Pete's sake!

Good to "hear" from you again!

quote:Originally posted by Rattlebox:
Oh the marvels of insomnia!

Okay - one observation: if you watch the party scene carefully, the clear implication of the camera-shot-choices is that Courtney Skin is somehow responsible for, or at least aware of, Izzy's 'Tess' flashes. If you accept that, then the notion that she might be really on the podsters side, while not entirely blown out of the water, certainly is going to need a lot more evidence than we've seen so far.

You are right. If Tess is NOT responsible for the flashes/images then the next likely candidate in my mind would be Courtney. It seemed to me that she was aware of what was happening with those flases/images. And it also seemed that she was practically making fun of them when they had that conference in the back room. She is a tough one to figure out.

quote:Second observation: Note the comment by CW Skin that the film 'Run Lola Run' tells the story of her life. In the movie a smart young women with an incrediably boneheaded boyfriend, who she loves to distraction just the same, is put in the position of having to pull off a small miracle (actually come up with a large amount of money - but I don't think thats the point) in order to save his skin. She actually fails and ends up dying - twice in the movie - before she gets it right on the third try. Might say something about the history of CW on the home planet?

Good catch! There did seemed to be an intentional play on that CD. I haven't seen the movie but will now look it up.

quote:Third observation: so far this season we've been presented with four possible skins - CW, Courtney, Grant & Dep. Hanson. If Grant is a skin, it is a good bet that he at least collaborated in the abduction of Tess; he had no alibi and he already admitted to the Sheriff & Max that he spoke to her and knew where she was planning on going. There is also the matter of the cut & flash that Iz got from it. If I had to guess at this point, I'd agree with those who say that Grant is a skin, and he is infact Iz's "great love." At any rate she does seem irrationally drawn towards him. (Like Max was drawn to Liz?)

I think you are correct about Grant. As for M/L--if there is a parallel then the Liz/mythology folk are correct in many of their theories for it would imply that Liz is also a double for someone from their former lives. BTW--this may be a reason to explain the M/L connection OTHER THAN the concept of "soulmate" unless you want to argue that Grant/Izzy are soulmates.

quote:About the difference between podsters and skins and good aliens and bad aliens and nesedo's.
Yikes! its getting so that you need a score card just to keep the players straight. At the time of Max's first death, it appears that on the home planet there were at least two intelligent species, which I am referring to as good aliens and bad aliens. What we learned with 'surprise' is that the bad aliens cannot live on earth without artificial support, which comes in the form of 'skins.' (It seemed to me that CW refered to the skin she wore almost as if one might refer to a high pressure diving suit - with some distain, a necessary hindrance.) We also know now that the skins wear out - or do they die? - after about 50 years, and when the skin dies the alien it hosts can no longer survive. As to the good Aliens, well we know that one way they can survive, indeed thrive, on earth is via the bioengineered podster approach we see in Max etal. Another way they may be able to come is through the nesedo life(?) form. We actually know very little about nesedo as a life form - is he an example of the good alien, or is he another bioengineered specimen, perhaps a failed prototype? Yet to be seen. Irregardless - none of this tells us anything about how the good aliens and bad aliens are related, or not - or what the society they lived in was like - ie what the social roles of the good and bad aliens were pre-war. (As someone pointed out - the story of the Valandra, if true, clearly implies some social interaction between the groups.)

All very good points. BTW--instead of being a support system, the "skin" of the skins could be evidence of a biological reaction to something in/on Earth that in the long run proves fatal to the species.

quote:Okay, the question of shapeshifting among skins has been left unaddressed - but a couple of clues that it is a possibility come to mind. First, the remarkable tranformation of the Hanson character over the summer seems to suggest at least that he might have been replaced. Second, Michael apparently stared right at a skin in 'flesh and bones,' but never saw it. Neither is conclusive, but along with your question, it does bring the issue to fore. If the skins are moldable to mimic others, its possible that CW Skin was never created until after Nesedo was done away with.

quote:The Podsters don't seem to be subject to the same kind of attacks that did in Nesedo, else why would CW Skin have had to resort to the makeshift weapon. Further, the Podsters seem to be pretty darn formidable in one-on-one combat - once Iz decided to fight, it was all over for CW very quickly. What do they know? Well, they seem to have mis-identified Max as the heir to Michael-Alien, probably because saving Liz seemed like a spontaneous, rash thing to do, in other words more Michael-like. Another thing - they seem more concerned with getting control of the "granolith" than anything else - till they find it, they can't afford to kill anyone. What is a granolith - so far I've heard portal and power source mentioned, also maybe something to do with translating between species - ala podsters. Another possibility is weapon - but I don't feel like we've got enough clues to even guess at this point.

You know, the only value to keeping our podsters alive at this point is: 1) access to the granolith (they are assuming that our guys know where the thing is BTW), or perhaps 2) for humiliation purposes--war trophies (aka returning the "royal four" home as captives to be displayed).

So you think Courtney's interest in Michael (while she ignores Max) is due to a misidentificaton instead of Michael's animal magnetism?

Great points (however you count them)!!! I really enjoy your observations and sharp mind!!!

LSS

originally posted by Qfanny:
When she was telling Isabel how she betrayed her family by loving her son, this naturally implied that her son was like Isabel...

Whoa! Did I miss something? The only person who I heard mention CW (step) son was Courney to Michael.

My thoughts:
Isabel (Valandra) was betrothed to Michael on Twilo but fell in love with a member from another race (maybe Grant?) that was attempting some sort of coup. This betrayal was key in the Podsters race losing their control on Twilo maybe due to Valandra confessing secrets or contributing to the sense of a shift in the balance of power. Sometimes this is all it takes for a successful coup. The Momogram said that the Podsters were killed and their essence combined…human DNA so maybe Valandra not only betrayed her family but also suffered the ultimate consequence and was killed after she outlived her usefulness. Nasedo and the book were sent as a protector and guide, repectively (neither accomplishing much). Maybe this is the Podsters second chance to set things right. Isabel, it seems, is on the right track having eliminated CW. Max, however, seems to be following in Valandra's footsteps by forsaking his planet and responsibility and pursing Liz (see his speech at the end of Ask Not). However, I subscribe to the RBI theory of 4+1 and Liz's importance to the mythology so I think we'll see that Max has a sense of what his purpose is and Liz somehow will fit into all this.

I just don't think that Michael is a skin just because the device "attacked" him. I believe that each device is attuned to one of the Podsters. I get good vibes from Courtney for some reason. The way she said "It's your night" to Isabel just seemed benevolent. The same with how she said "I like that" about the Tabasco to Michael. I think Courtney is rebelling against her own (Skins) maybe for her love of Michael. Michael could be her enemy counterpart and she gave up or lost her device that was attuned to him. I think her cover story about an affair with CW son will blow up in her face now that Isabel knows CW was a skin. The pics Michael found could be explained by CW keeping tabs on a comrade that she feels is a weak link. I sure hope the podsters share all this information ASAP.

I still can't figure out where Nasedo and his shapeshifting fits in. He throws a wrench into every theory I have! Hopefully the writers will wrap up his role since his character has been dead for two eps now.

HLA

Lisa

I agree with those who think Courtney may have been 'providing' those head-splitting visions to Isabel all day (and on her birthday too!) But why assume this means that Courtney is a good Skin, and that she was doing to this help Tess? Tess was already captured, which was easy because she is so maligned and neglected by Max, Isabel and Michael (as well as by so many ROSWELL fans). But Isabel had to be wrenched from the bosom of her loving and controlling family, which clearly required more effort, especially once it was realized that Tess wasn't the one they were looking for.

Or was she? Frankly, one comment from Liz settled things for me on the Tess question. When Liz said to Is, 'I'm sorry Isabel, I just don't trust her,' I think we were all put on report that Tess is a bad guy. The fact that the podsters idiotically seem to be softening toward her suggests this too. Clearly Liz (and likely Maria) will be the clear-eyed truth-tellers here, but they will seem suspect because Liz's distrust of Tess can be dismissed as simple jealousy and bitchery.

Was Tess really kidnaped, or was it a ruse to flush Isabel out and inspire sympathy for Tess? Why don't we know how she was abducted and what her interrogation was like? If she was in cahoots with the evil Skins, that would reinforce the idea that Nasedo/Harding was a bad guy too, evidently not a skin himself but someone who had some kind of ax to grind as far as undermining the podsters.

And a word about Tess's powers: Up to now, she has if anything seemed more powerful than Max, Isabel and Michael, if only because she has been raised with an awareness of her powers and has much more experience using them. However in 'Surprise!' she seemed powerless against Whitaker, though Isabel (who is much less experienced in the use of her powers than Tess) was able to dispatch the wicked Congressperson, perhaps with the help of her emotion and indignation?
Is this the secret of the growing powers Max and Isabel talked about (in the only dialogue exchange I really liked in last night's episode)? Does an emotional life and ready access to 'feelings' actually strengthen and amplify the alien powers the podsters have? Does loving and being loved make the aliens stronger? If so, maybe this is why Tess is actually less powerful than they?

The question remains of whether Nasedo/Harding (and therefore Tess) knew/know of the existence and location of the granulator. I'm guessing that if Tess is meant to be a villain, she doesn't know. Yet. How and when will Isabel tell Max and Michael about it, and when will she reveal the terrible secrets of her passionate and treacherous past? Tune in next week to 'As the Alien Planet Turns' . . .

It would seem that Nesado and the Pod Squad do not 'sense' the Skins.

Breathless, I had the same thoughts regarding the CW mistaking Isabel for Tess. When she (foolishly) revealed the details of the betrayal, I thought, "AHA! She really means TESS!" Still, for all the trouble she's caused, I don't think that Tess is evil. However, if it turns out that Isabel truly is the betrayer, I tend to agree with the theory that she did it without understanding the full implications of her actions. If nothing else, she has demonstrated time and again how important her family is to her. The basic events that the CW was describing might be accurate, but naturally she would twist the meaning to be as damaging as possible to Isabel. What better way to control a potential threat than to make her feel worthless and isolated from the others?

Grant as alien/former lover makes complete sense to me. He is more that what he seems. Also, Isabel's initial reaction to him brought to mind her first meeting with Tess. There seemed to be an unconscious recognition between the two of them.

As for why the skins have yet to attack the royal four, especially when they've been in one-on-one situations with them:
1)yes, they need them to get the granolith, and
2)the podsters are probably way more powerful than they know. Remember in Destiny Max says something to the effect that, "maybe we're even more powerful than we think". Perhaps it would take many of the skins to truly defeat a fully power-mature podster. The skins don't know the extent of the podsters' current capabilities and don't want to take any unnecessary risks. This would also explain why so few of the "good" aliens were sent. Whatever the task before them is, it only requires a small number of (probably very powerful) key individuals. Judging by the number of activated pentagonal paperweights at the end of Destiny, there seems to be a virtual army of Skins spread throughout Earth.

Forgive me if someone already though of this in the sf thread for Skin and Bones (I never got to read it), but I wonder if Michael's vulnerability to the alien paperweight had to do with his healing stones experience. Is that what made Nasedo vulnerable as well? After all, if he was there as a protector, he seemed ill-equipped to fight with the Skins one-on-one. Perhaps the healing stones have restorative properties at a cost. Otherwise, why not keep them with you at all times?

I don't feel I can really speculate too effectively on the purpose of the granolith, but I was struck once again how much the pod chamber resembles a holy place, like a mini-cathedral with its arches and celestial-blue tones. The granolith seems to be located in the sanctum sanctorium, if you will. I think the pod chamber is meant to be a safe haven, untouchable by the skins. Honestly, I don't think they know it's location to begin with. And perhaps the granolith provides some sort of protection over the place by making it undetectable to the Skins. On the other hand, I can't help but wonder if the granolith played a part in the activated orbs' beacon to the Skins. Remember how that pulse seemed to come from the tip of the rock? Did the granolith channel and broadcast the signal from the orbs?

I think we're looking at three different alien "races" here. The Skins, the original royal four and Nasedo. It seems clear that the original royal four were capable of love. In fact Momogram expresses her love to them. I think that Nasedo was different biologically from both the original four and the Skins. However, I suspect that the Skins and the podsters' race are not too different from one another. It sure seems that they are both capable of great passion.

Pure speculation, but maybe the skins' function (I mean the actual skin that the aliens use) is meant to be a sort of filter. To filter what, I don't know. LSS, I also like your wet suit analogy.

There, I think I'm done rambling.
Rachelle

One last thing, I'm still stuck on the images that Liz got from Max in Sexual Healing. When the orb gets buried, we see the burial happening from the orb's point of view. Now maybe that was just creative camera work and I'm reading way too much into it. But I can't shake the lingering feeling that those orbs were meant as more than just message boxes from Momogram. The seed shape brings to mind the idea of fertility, and perhaps that was fulfilled by the events in Sexual Healing. But I wonder if the alien essences were actually transported in those orbs, before the "good" aliens had a chance to combine them with the human DNA. Have we seen the last of the orbs?

Whew! OK, I'm pretty sure that's it for now.

Or what if it was the "dirt devil" guy?
(What's his name?) or perhaps it was Tess herself?

quote:
Or was she? Frankly, one comment from Liz settled things for me on the Tess question. When Liz said to Is, 'I'm sorry Isabel, I just don't trust her,' I think we were all put on report that Tess is a bad guy. The fact that the podsters idiotically seem to be softening toward her suggests this too. Clearly Liz (and likely Maria) will be the clear-eyed truth-tellers here, but they will seem suspect because Liz's distrust of Tess can be dismissed as simple jealousy and bitchery.

You know I can't put my finger on it, but something about Liz's statement unnerved me.
I realize Liz doesn't like Tess and in true human nature she shouldn't like Tess. Only, isn't this rather odd and well part of your average plotline to have Liz pull off the "bitchery" role? (love that word)

quote:
Was Tess really kidnaped, or was it a ruse to flush Isabel out and inspire sympathy for Tess? Why don't we know how she was abducted and what her interrogation was like?

I go the impression she was taken from her car, then repeatedly thrown up against a wall. . .

quote:
If she was in cahoots with the evil Skins, that would reinforce the idea that Nasedo/Harding was a bad guy too, evidently not a skin himself but someone who had some kind of ax to grind as far as undermining the podsters.

When you put it like that, that actually sounds . . . great.

Secondly, I did not get the impression that the skins could shapeshift. Otherwise, why would they need skins in the first place. Maybe Nasedo's power to shapeshift comes from the Granolith. Remember how Tess found him in the pod chamber coming out of the wall in Max to the Max. If the skins get the granolith maybe they will be able to exist on Earth in their natural form like Nasedo and use the shapeshifing power to stay hidden.

Finally, I don't think the 1947 crash was the only time either group of aliens has visited Earth. It's just the only one we know about. This has probably been discussed before and maybe will be addressed in the next episode, but how could the good aliens have set up that whole pod chamber & granolith thing in the stress of the crash and being captured.

Well, I hope this makes sense. I really enjoyed reading everyone else's thoughts!

Here are two more to add to the mix:

Does anyone wonder why Isabel got a flash when her mother handed her the present from her father?

Does anyone think there is more to the Courtney/Michael relationship then meets the eye? Courtney said CW had pictures of her b/c she was involved with CW's stepson. Could this involvement have been on their home planet and could the stepson have been Michael in his former life? Courtney constantly seems to be dropping Michael hints, like she remembers their past. When she slapped him, I just sensed their was something more behind it. Also, perhaps CW was watching Courtney as she watched Courtney in the past so Courtney would not distract Michael from his union with Isabel.

I'm not 100% sure I believe this. While it would add credence to why the device reacted to Michael and not Max, it also raises the question as to why they would have been recreated if it was their betrayl that led to the situation on their home planet.

Anyway, just a thought, so many questions, so little time .....

First of all, I enjoyed The Surprise more than I had anticipated. I knew there would be no M/L moments, so this dreamer was prepared. I thought Katie was outstanding with her performance, and I found Alex to be delightful. Ok, enough of the touchy-feely mentions. Now to get to some meatier comments and questions.

I agree with everyone (Hi Elliott) that we are getting more questions than answers. We still have all those unanswered clues from the first season, and it appears that, besides NOT resolving any of those clues, the writers just keep throwing out additional ones this season. We will need more than a scorecard before long. We will need Roswell software, specifically designed by the writers, to help us keep track of all that they keep introducing.

Also, I still have a problem with Nacedo's death??? Is he dead? There have been too many mentions of "He can't die" for me to believe that he is dead. Tess said in Season 1 that Nacedo himself told her that he can't die. Well, considering the fact that he knew about the skins, why would he make a statement like that to her if indeed he knew that they could kill him? Did he fear their presence (at the car, his uttering of "Oh No" when he spotted the skin shed)? That is contradictory to "I can't die." Why make that kind of statement if the skins could kill him? Don't you think he would have said, "I can't die, unless of course, there is a "Skin" nearby?" And why was Jim Ortleib at the Key Club Crashdown party? Episode 2 would have been in the can or nearly in the can on that date? If that was the end of his part, why would he be interested in a fan party for Roswell? I just keep thinking that it was not really Nacedo who died. Now what all this means exactly, I do not know. I just have a sneaking suspicion that we are only being led to believe that Nacedo is dead. I have always felt as though it was out of character for Max to panic and leave Nacedo in his room to run shirtless through the town of Roswell looking for help. What happened to all those cell phones from Season 1? Wouldn't it have made more sense for him to call someone? Is it possible that this was written like this to allow Nacedo to somehow substitute a lookalike so that the podsters would think he was dead? Of course, keep in mind, that I have always felt as though the Ed Harding/Nacedo was not the good guy he wanted M/M/I to believe. Could he have killed the Skin who was after him, placed the body of the Skin in Max' room after he left, then somehow (and this is where it gets questionable as I don't know all his powers, but then who does) did a shapeshift number on the Skin? In the pod chamber, after the four of them unsuccessfully tried to revive him with the stones, he turned to dust, just like CW did when Isabel killed her. Does that mean Nacedo is a Skin or does that mean that it was not Nacedo in the pod chamber?

Which brings me to Tess. I don't know if I am not being objective enough with her, but I still think she is evil. (Maybe I just keep wishing it.) And I don't think we were given any proof that Tess was NOT the traitor and Isabel WAS in their previous lives. I agree with Breathless and others that CW was still guessing when she confronted Isabel. It was as though, OK, I still can't find what I'm looking for (the granolith), so I'll try another tactic. AND, did anyone else think that the whole storyline there went to hell in a handbasket rather quickly? First CW tells Isabel that she must learn the location of the granolith; then when Isabel says she doesn't know, and CW acts as though she doesn't believe her, CW starts to use physical means to break Izzy down. Ok, at what point did CW decide that maybe Izzy doesn't know and that she will then kill her. It seems as though we went from, "TELL ME, I MUST KNOW" to "OK, I MUST DESTROY YOU ALL" very fast and with no rhyme or reason. A dead Izzy and Tess will certainly not be able to give CW the information she so desparately insists she must have. Did any of this make any sense to any of you? You don't kill off your possible information source.

And the Skins? I don't know what was discussed previously, but they appear to become invisible at times. Do they shed their skin to become invisible? Or do they become invisible as they shed their skin? Is it voluntary or not? It seemed that if they were visible, wouldn't Michael, Nacedo, or Max have seen them when they looked in their general direction? Michael actually looked around at the moment he sensed he was being watched and saw nothing. As Bluecornmoon and I discussed earlier, reminders of "Predator" here. What is the true purpose of the shedding? Is it for survival or for strategic maneuvers or both? And the 50 year life expectancy for the Skins? Yikes!!!! As an over 50 fan, I was a bit sympathetic to poor CW, almost wanting her to find what she was looking for so that she could extend her life beyond the 50 years. But only a bit sympathetic. I still find it hard to believe that Nacedo did not detect that she was a Skin. Her statement to him about sleeping with her for political reasons could have been about their alien sides vs. the Congress of earth. And they could have known exactly that each other were alien, and been working together. Would reinforce my theory that Nacedo is/was NOT good, but is/was working with the Skins. And that he is still around. Has he shapeshifted into Grant? Is Tess part of the plot to lure Isabel to some spot of isolation? Did Nacedo as Grant help Tess with the blood makeup or whatever, getting blood on himself in the process? Why are Tess and Grant speaking? C'mon, Grant knows Tess and Isabel are friends and he called her about a birthday present? I doubt that, considering how Isabel and Tess have not been much in the way of friends in Season 2. And why did Isabel get a flash when touching the blood from Grant's neck? Was it the same as the blood on Tess? Blood that was setup to lure Isabel to that remote area?

Sorry for all this. I seem to have far more questions than theories. And for me, the jury is still out on Courtney. Still haven't decided how I feel about her role in all of this. Hopefully, some of you can help me out with my questions.

Incidently, Hi LSS. Looking forward to a great Season 2. I just hope the writers are as concerned about it as all of us are.

Steff/RemyS

Random Thoughts: (1)Why would they send Nacedo as the PROTECTOR of the Pod squad if he's less powerful than they are? If that was the case, maybe he should have just come as their teacher. (2) I know Tess was licking her wounds at the time, but didn't she hear what CW said to Isabel? You mean she isn't going to tell? (3) I know Liz has these hateful feelings toward Tess right now that some may think makes her biased, but in the first season, Liz's intuition was usually dead on--even if she didn't know the details. So perhaps Tess is untrustworthy. (4) Does anyone think there are more of the podster's race out there somewhere? There were hundreds of blinking lights going off all over the world at the end of destiny. Who knows how many different races are on earth. Did it make sense to send the Royal Four to earth with just Nacedo as their protection?

Just my thoughts- Jeff

In WR Nesedo/Harding suggested that he was more equiped to face the enemy than they were. But I got the sense that this meant that they weren't ready (remember Michael complaining that he didn't have a how to "manual" for his powers. But then--your point is taken...why didn't he "teach" them? Of course it could be argued that he didn't have the time. things were pretty hectic in those last eppys...and then after that he was subbing for Pierce.

quote: (2) I know Tess was licking her wounds at the time, but didn't she hear what CW said to Isabel? You mean she isn't going to tell?

Yeah--you are right. And I am not sure what her injuries entailed. Had she just been thrown around like we saw the CW do to her? We saw no tell tale marks on her chest (now THERE'S a missed chance at "Racy" Roswell).

quote: (3) I know Liz has these hateful feelings toward Tess right now that some may think makes her biased, but in the first season, Liz's intuition was usually dead on--even if she didn't know the details. So perhaps Tess is untrustworthy.

Of course the question is...IS Tess the enemy? Or will she become one since no one likes her? That address book was pretty damning don't you think? Even I'm starting to feel sorry for her.

quote:(4) Does anyone think there are more of the podster's race out there somewhere? There were hundreds of blinking lights going off all over the world at the end of destiny. Who knows how many different races are on earth. Did it make sense to send the Royal Four to earth with just Nacedo as their protection?

Yes I think there are more of Max's people out "there." But you are right...why just ONE protector? Perhaps there were FOUR to start with (1 per royal) like bodyguards? After all, we did have FOUR aliens on board to begin with.

Good talking with you JC! Good questions!

LSS

I vote for number three and the idea that "nurture" over past live's memories is of importance. Of course, number three also leaves room for Liz. Max is no longer socialized to think of Isobel as the love of his live...eros has turned into agape. I think number three also fits with what Max says to Isobel at the end of the episode.

First of all, i do not believe that Witteker had a stepson. I think Cortney just said that she was sleeping with the stepson, because what was her alternative. "oh she's following me because i am a skin :wink:"

Secondly, i belive that it is only the skins with the 50 year deadline, not the royal four. From everything i gather the royal four may be gentically engerniered,but the bottom line is they are still human, therefore they have a normal life span.

I also belive that the reason so many people feel that Tess is the traitor and not Iz is because they do not like Tess. Just because she thinks Max is her man does not make her a traitor. i am dreamgirl, but i happen to feel Tess gets a raw deal.

I look at the pod squad like they are clones of past people. Perhapes thier home planet did not plan it that way, but that is what happen. They are different people then who they were on the past planet. Or at least that was i belive.

sorry it is so long.

quote:Originally posted by RemyS:
Also, I still have a problem with Nacedo's death??? Is he dead? There have been too many mentions of "He can't die" for me to believe that he is dead. Tess said in Season 1 that Nacedo himself told her that he can't die.

I think that the fact that NO ONE seriously raised the issue of why he was dead in the storyline is a GLARING omission. Now the question is...is is a significant omission or just another example of a plot hole (remember that no one really questioned Harding about his kidnapping of Liz either)?
quote:And why was Jim Ortleib at the Key Club Crashdown party? Episode 2 would have been in the can or nearly in the can on that date? If that was the end of his part, why would he be interested in a fan party for Roswell?[QUOTE]

Uh--that is where I heard that Harding was going to die this season and Ortleib remarked (not to me, this is second hand gossip..let's be clear of this) that he wished he would be around for this season...so it sounded like his character was going to be pretty dead to me. Still...as we all know...even dead characters can be raised with a little help from the writers!

[QUOTE] I have always felt as though it was out of character for Max to panic and leave Nacedo in his room to run shirtless through the town of Roswell looking for help. guy he wanted M/M/I to believe.

I agree with you about the characterization but disagree on the motive. In many ways "Roswell Revamped" has turn a bit to "Racy Roswell" whether we are talking about Kyle's Calvin Klein boxers to the super sophisticated looks our females have adopted. Seeing a half bare Behr might be ascribed to simply that. BTW--LA goers...wasn't it great to see him do that in the flesh--even if we had wait till 1:15a.m. to do it?

quote:Which brings me to Tess. I don't know if I am not being objective enough with her, but I still think she is evil. (Maybe I just keep wishing it.)

It has been months since I've been objective about Tess even though I have tried so VERY hard to be. At first I thought they'd redeem her character...then I read the recent spoilers and now I don't know what to think...enough said.

quote:And the Skins?....What is the true purpose of the shedding? Is it for survival or for strategic maneuvers or both?

I tend to think survival here...CW didn't seem to like it one bit. Kind of like a bad case of hives---itchy.

quote: And the 50 year life expectancy for the Skins? Yikes!!!!

Yeah--that really hurt didn't it?

Nice talking to you again!

LSS

So, Valandra/Isabel was betrothed to Michael and in love with a skin. I wonder if she was young and niave. I mean royalty sometimes marries VERY young. So it could be that she did not understand that she was giving away secrets and betraying her people. OR she was a lying, coniving, two-timing vixen who knew exactly what she was doing. I tend to lean towards the first idea. And I am not saying all young people are niave.

Okay, so some of us ramble.

1) How did Whitaker get to Tess so fast? I mean, she was at the party, and didn't leave 'till after Isabel did. And wasn't she in her office when it was being broken into? The place Tess was being kept at couldn't have been very far away, since Maria drove out there and back by time Isabel got Tess, which only took a couple of minutes. Confusing.

2) And now for actual sci-fi stuff; why the heck didn't Max heal Isabel and Tess? I mean, it's not lke they can go to the hospital. Really.

We really don't know what the relationships were like between these three in the past, do we? There might have been a lot of jealousy and hostility there right along. Add Tess and things are even more uncertain.

What if certain negative traits we have seen hints of in our beloved podsters were actually much more pronounced in their predecessors? Maybe Max really was a tyrant -- a good man who was nevertheless a cold, punitive martinet. What if Michael was even more impetuous than he is now, and prone to violence or even sadism? And what if the glacial, condescending manner that Isabel affected at the beginning of ROSWELL's first season was much closer to Velandra's personality on Planet Twilo? In this respect they may have been not-nice people who were fighting for a just cause.

I know, I know, this is too sophisticated a point of view for TV. But let me go a step further. Can we really be sure that the podsters predecessors were on the proper side of the angels? What if they weren't? In this respect the human podsters we love so much (excluding Tess of course) may be living examples of Rousseauesque perfection. Maybe human beings aren't as perfectable as liberal humanists were apt to think late in the 20th Century, but what if our alien pals are? They may be far better people now than they used to be . . . And maybe turning their collective back on their alien destiny will involve even more than we realize now.

(LSS waves and jumps for joy at reading Ellio's great posts!!! Feels like old times again!!!)

quote:Originally posted by Elliott:
We really don't know what the relationships were like between these three in the past, do we? There might have been a lot of jealousy and hostility there right along. Add Tess and things are even more uncertain.

What if certain negative traits we have seen hints of in our beloved podsters were actually much more pronounced in their predecessors? Maybe Max really was a tyrant -- a good man who was nevertheless a cold, punitive martinet. What if Michael was even more impetuous than he is now, and prone to violence or even sadism?

You are absolutely right. I've often wondered about our use of good/bad labels when it comes to our aliens. Remember last season (was it you?) when we talked about Michael being tempted by the "dark side"? Maybe that was simply a return to his previous personality?

quote:And what if the glacial, condescending manner that Isabel affected at the beginning of ROSWELL's first season was much closer to Velandra's personality on Planet Twilo?

You know given that image coupled with her possessiveness of her brother (remember her jealousy of Liz?) ...it is a possibility.

quote:I know, I know, this is too sophisticated a point of view for TV. But let me go a step further. Can we really be sure that the podsters predecessors were on the proper side of the angels? What if they weren't? In this respect the human podsters we love so much (excluding Tess of course) may be living examples of Rousseauesque perfection. Maybe human beings aren't as perfectable as liberal humanists were apt to think late in the 20th Century, but what if our alien pals are? They may be far better people now than they used to be . . . And maybe turning their collective back on their alien destiny will involve even more than we realize now.

I agree. But since 19th c. theological liberalism crashed when confronted by WWI, it may be also possible for our podsters to become confused ethically when confronted with the realities of War. We've already seen this with every one and most recently with poor Izzy). Only Tess seems to take war for granted and operates out of a different ethical ethos.

LSS

This is something I've suspected since Momogram in Destiny. I've never liked the idea of this rigid, medieval-sounding monarchy she describes. It could just be that the writers picked a well-worn sci fi cliche (In August, I went to a workshop for writers at a sci fi con. One of the pro writers on the panel listed, among the common lapses of sci fi writing logic that most annoyed him, creating high-tech futuristic worlds with governments and social structures out of Dungeons and Dragons). But what if the podsters ancestors were the bad guys, and their enemies were the freedom fighters? For all we know, the podsters have been programmed and sent to Earth to kill the fugitives who escaped during a slave rebellion (eg, Brother From Another Planet). Have we yet seen a Skin attack a human? Perhaps they're here to protect the humans from the podsters, even if it's just to prevent the podsters race from gaining a beach head on Earth.

Both Tess and Nacedo, who are portrayed as morally questionable characters, are in favor of the podsters living out their old roles. The podsters' impulses to rebel against these roles are portrayed positively, though they may not seem as laudable to audiences in more tradition-oriented societies. I would not be a all surprised if it turns out that the podster's ancestors are among the bad guys, and the podsters end up rejecting their "Destiny" altogether.

Okay--here is a nightmare (esp. for you Elliot!) What if Tess' ethics ARE reflective of our podsters' ethics in their previous lives? Brrrr!

LSS

Well, everyone's been wondering about CW Whitaker and her plans for the podsters, her race, whatever, but I have to question her history here on earth. Are the skins able to either: 1)time-travel or 2) see into the future? Because:

She's a congresswoman, everyone. The skins didn't just drop her off on May 14th when the signal went off and she suddenly became one. She had to be educated as a human in (likely) New Mexico, go through local politics, perhaps assist other senators in national politics, and work very hard to become a Congresswoman right at the time the podsters were reaching maturity and learning of their own powers. I don't think it was just a coincidence Pierce happened to be getting seriously involved in hunting the podsters at the same time.

So how did the Skins know exactly when to send her and that this is the course she'd be taking in her short life on earth? How did they know the people of New Mexico would vote for her at the right time and subsequently allow her to meet Pierce and gain valuable information? I mean, I can see sending someone like Courtney...she's low profile, no history, no national significance, but the CW?

So that's why I'm wondering if the Skins are either time travelers or have clairvoyant members in their species.

I hope that made sense.

SisofNight

Hey, I've noticed that Maria and I think it was Courtney are caring around a big ol' bottle of blue liquid. You see it with Maria in Ask Not when she leaves Max after lunch. Tonight I saw it again, with a different character, I'm pretty sure it was Courtney. That's been bothering me because it does not look like a beverage of sorts.

sorry for the ramblings. AMX or Palomino, can you also add your scientific insight to the electric curcuit discussion!

I enjoy your technical insights!
My 2 cents isn't really a sci-fi issue (well, maybe a little).
In ref to Maria/Courtney, they both seem to be reacting to Mr. Guerin in the same manner--animosity and sexually-charged banter. Of course we have time to find out where this Issue Called Courtney leads, but my husband who is only a casual watcher of the show (and tv in general) questioned whether Maria and Courtney could be related. I suppose he's sighting the (slight) physical resemblance, but it's an interesting thought with interesting possibilities. Maria as half-alien! Whew!!

Isabel is strong. She killed Whitaker, redirecting that current with a variant on Max's forcefield I think. Whitaker, to avoid being fried with that thing, must have been controlling it somehow, so Isabel must be stronger. Tess lost to Whitaker (and Grant?), was badly injured. Nacedo was killed by Whitaker.

An important note on strength- Isabel never seemed to create a whole lot of light the many times she used her power, compared to Nacedo or Michael, or even Max. Perhaps she isn't stronger, but she is just as strong and instead of releasing energy as waste (the light, possibly waste heat as well) she is able to focus it all into what she is doing? That not only makes her effectively stronger but also less visible, which might come in very handy sometime.

Neither Isabel nor Max, both of whom we have seen heal in other eps, was seen to heal Tess. Maybe the Skins have ways of inflicting damage that the Podsters can't heal using their abilities?

Can the Skins shapeshift? They seem too conveniently located. I think that they murdered and replaced Representative Whitaker.

I suspect Tess broadcast the visions, it seems like something her Mindwarp power could do. Isabel might be the most receptive/perceptive of the Podsters (and so the only one Tess could reach) or maybe Tess just feels closest to Isabel.

Whoa! Did I miss something? The only person who I heard mention CW (step) son was Courney to Michael.

[/B]

No- you didn't miss anything. This was not actually said. It was one of my delusions. I think I mixed Courtney's story with Valandras and Whitakers. Interesting outcome though.

If so, then what was Mommy refering to then by the "evil within"?

1. We don't know what Whitaker meant by "great love." It could have been the Romeo & Juliet thing...or it could have been love for a leader, a country, a race, a species, a child.

2. Michael set off the pentagram devices and Max didn't. I tilt towards the theory that there are two alien species represented by the podsters mixed with human DNA to protect them (let them live longer than 50 years), and reproduce with each other. Why else a "breeding program.?" I think Qfanny is the one that has discussed this issue and pointed out the orange/blue symbolism prevalent in the show.

3. Whitaker (I think she was recently replaced by a Skin), presumed the podsters would remember their past lives. Whitaker was appealing to one of her own race, to "erase the betrayal, and reveal the Greenolith." Why would she do this to one who was a different species?

4. Isobel's hand power was different from Nasedo's or Michael's. She didn't use a blue light, a simple hand gesture was enough. Notice that Congressman Whitaker didn't flash with blue lights either.

5. Max used "blue light" to protect Liz from Riverdog in the cave.

6. Whitaker was pointed in Tess's direction because Liz said she had a "past history" with Max.

I think that explains my reasoning that Congresswoman's entire little scenario including Isobel's betrayal just can't be totally believed. There is some assumption that the podsters are missing because they don't remember their past lives but the aliens chasing them, do.

Did anyone notice the wooden fish and metal tree with fishing lures in Grant Sorenson's hotel room? Those are very strange things to have as "decor" in a transitory hotel room. And the room was decorated in orange and blue. What is this geologist doing with Isobel? Did Grant's blood trigger Isobel's vision (which leads to the dark thought that he was involved in Tess's disappearance) or was it just the color red? This would be an associational linkage rather than direct.

By the way, just because we didn't see Max heal Tess, doesn't mean he didn't. Isobel might be able to handle cuts and bruises but not internal injuries. Otherwise, why didn't she and Michael attempt to heal Max in the hospital in Blood Brothers? I can't believe our writers would forget such a key issue.

I didn't hear Whittaker tell Isabel she killed Nasedo to protect her from the 'other three.' I'll have to listen closely during that part on my second viewing. But since many people have referred to it, she must have said it. Too much backstory being revealed at one time.

Regarding "the evil within" mentioned by the Mommogram. When the Skins made their first appearance, I thought that when they were about to kill one of the podsters, they would have to shed their skin and reveal their true form (i.e. the evil within). Mommogram's message could still mean that, although it doesn't look like the Skins have another form underneath the human one. So, perhaps Mommogram was referring to the process of shedding skin as revealing the evil within.

Glad other people are confused about Nasedo's behavior.

A couple people mentioned that the granolith (spelling?) reminded them of the monolith from 2001: A Space Odyssey. Reminded me of that, too. It also reminded me of the 'MCP' from "Tron." Besides allowing the Skins to live longer, I really don't know what the granolith does.

Good night.

Elliott: your post read my mind - is Liz providing us with some of the foreshadowing that has been identified once already by Qfanny....don't trust TESS??

TESS - if she was sending Iz the visions - why choose her...why not Max (whom she refers to as leader/in charge) or Michael...it seems too convenient that CW wanted "Valandra" and Tess delivers by calling on Iz for help - Thus I agree with your ideas Elliott...the 'rescue me' scenario seems a hoax?

as someone else eluded - Tess was in better shape than Iz and more aware of her abilities (thanks to Nasedo) thus she should have been able to fend off the CW - supporting the hoax theory OR the other which states she is weaker due to her lack of human contact/love??? I'm perplexed with this one...

COURTNEY - A few theories: she did seem aware of Iz's visions (as Rattlebox stated) and made reference to Tess - I believe as - "why would anybody want her" ie. we've roughed her up and discovered she is not Valandra...(the 'we' of course is if the skins are working together?)..
However,
I tend to agree more with shellybelly re: Court - in that she may have been with Michael in the 'previous-life' which is why she may be @ odds with the mission the CW had.

Grant - I agree he could be Iz's long lost (those visions began when she touched him) and though she was betrothed to Mike this does not mean they were in love - as I said earlier MAYBE Mike was with Courtney???

Sister_of_Night:

you asked of the CW and the life she'd had to lead just to find the 4 and the granolith - we still are unaware of the full extent of 'skin' power and as many have eluded 'she' may have been occupying this body for only a short time - ie. maybe she can shape-shift??

LSS and RATTLEBOX:

you made a very interesting observation of the MAx and Liz connection - bare with me a as I run out on a limb - you both eluded to the possibility that LIz could also be leading a double life?? what if!! In Destiny Max was told Tess was his YOUNG bride - suggesting he was older than she - thus did he lose his first wife/soulmate who is now our beloved Liz Parker - unknowingly leading a double life on earth??? thanks for humouring me...

LSS my dear! you always get me thinking...

Is Tess a reflection of her home planet's ethics?? Bringing out the nature vs nuture argument - what if Max and Iz had been brought up as intended - would they be the characters we admire now OR would they be a reflection of TESS's upbringing?? I am thinking they'd defintely be different but their true characters would emerge somehow???

The Skins: are they working together OR is it every skin for him/her self?? ie. is the granolith the 'holy grail' that will bring power and glory to the lucky skin who brings it home and wipes out the 'Royal' 4 in the process....forgive me...just watched Indianna Jone this week-end...

I truly enjoy reading this thread.

great posts by all!

quote:Originally posted by shortstuff:
...i belive that it is only the skins with the 50 year deadline, not the royal four. From everything i gather the royal four may be gentically engerniered,but the bottom line is they are still human, therefore they have a normal life span.

I think you are right. You know, in that interior flashback in the therapist's office Max said something to the effect that so far they had aged about the same as humans. I thought that was an interesting remark to make (of course they could simply be picking up on that eraser room conversation from the first season). If anything I would expect our podsters to have an expanded life span not a shortened one. Look at the progress we (humankind) has made in terms of life spans over the last 400 years. Our podsters are supposed to be advanced humans (albeit engineered ones).

quote: I also belive that the reason so many people feel that Tess is the traitor and not Iz is because they do not like Tess. Just because she thinks Max is her man does not make her a traitor. i am dreamgirl, but i happen to feel Tess gets a raw deal.

I actually agree with you though to be honest that "raw deal" has been carefully constructed and nurtured by our writers.

Good points!

LSS

1. Did Nasedo fake his own death? If so, did he do it to make the "skins" believe something false and thus let their defense down? Or, was it done for his own selfish reasons?

2. People are posting that the "skins" or at least CW did not attack the Podsters because they needed to get information about the Granolith from them. But, CW in her frenzy against Tess/Is says that if Is doesn't tell her what she wants, she'll kill em! What gives? One second she needs this vital info. to keep her going past 50 years, but on the other she is ready to kill them if they don't blab. Hmmmmm...

Qfanny - great point as well!

- "Mom" told the Podsters they would be able to "sense" the "skins" from "the evil within" yet the "skins" are walking around them all the time!! What gives?? Maybe I can understand why Nasedo couldn't sense CW (albeit a stretch) because "Mom" was talking about him, but rather the Podsters. But she said that for a reason. What gives??

Good posts by everyone! This is good stuff!

I just thought of one other thing. Maybe CW and the "skins" underestimate the Podsters because they never had these powers back on their home planet. These are human powers (that develop over thousands of years).

HeaT

Okay--here is a nightmare (esp. for you Elliot!) What if Tess' ethics ARE reflective of our podster's ethics in their previous lives? Brrrr!

LSS

I wouldn't be surprised at all if their next mission after defeating the Skins is to take over Earth.

It'll also be interesting to see what happens if Max starts remembering his former life. Then who will he be?

The talk about their powers growing is a bit chilling.

It'll also be interesting to see what happens if Max starts remembering his former life. Then who will he be?

The talk about their powers growing is a bit chilling.

Nermal...I agree. Remember Max's off the cuff remark in SH that his people sent him to take over the Earth?

And I have long speculated (and worried) about those elusive lost memories. IF Max can retrieve those memories, then he really will need a therapist!!! Talk about split personalities!!!

And with Michael's current state of paranoia and general meanness...I certainly am not calmed to know that he is getting more powerful by the day. And Max should be worried as well!

LSS

And does anyone else find it odd that Iz was able to kill the congresswoman when she was able to kill Nasedo and beat the crap out of Tess. I would have thought that Nasedo and Tess would have had far more knowledge and control of their powers than Iz has. Would that mean that the blood royals (Max and Iz - not Michael and Tess, they married in) have exceptional powers. But then again they were created with human DNA which would mean they are the same, so I go back to my original thought - if Nasedo couldn't kill her, and Tess couldn't even defend herself, then how did Iz kill her so easily?

Isabel could have betrayed them but have been unaware of the consequences (namely the "death" of her brother and pod mates.) Perhaps guilt drove her to try to right things.

Also, there was nothing that said that the congressman really did kill Nasedo. Isabel accused her of it, but she never answered that she actually had.

I think that the Skins were working together to lure Isabel out there to get the info needed. Maybe one working alone couldn't overcome Tess, but two or three working together could. Tess was run off of the road by someone (and what she was doing way out there is a mystery) and injured in the accident. They took her from the accident (maybe she put up a struggle... see Grant't neck wound) and subdued her. After finding out that she wasn't the one they were looking for, they started planting the visions in Iz's head to lure her to Tess, and get her alone to be confronted by CW. It is possible that CW did not know how strong Isabel has become and thought she was an easy mark.
Tess has more memories than the other podsters, so it is possible that she really is NOT this Valendra person that CW referred to... Perhaps CW mind-melded her (or whatever) and found the partial memories which convinced her that Isabel must be the one she is looking for.

I also think there might be credence to CW's story. It does shed light on the Michael/Isabel connection and why they seem to be fond of each other, but don't really have a "love" connection. It could have been that they were betrothed for political reasons, or even thought they were in love, but Valendra fell for someone else and betrayed her betrothed (tee hee) and created a breach between them.

It makes me wonder if the memory loss may have been intentional on the part of the planners. If they couldn't remember past betrayals and hurts, they could forge new and stronger relationships.

Even though I remain one of the unspoiled, the temptation is growing stronger to skip on over to the spoilers... no... must... stay...strong....

You know--the implications of what you said are important. Either what you say is true or else Izzy's betrayal was not well known. After all--if you are in the business of bioengineering--would you use the essence of a traitor? Would you chance that history might repeat itself? Either those memories were blocked (as you said), or they didn't know of her betrayal, or the CW is not telling the truth.

And BTW--IF Grant is Izzy's old beloved--then let's talk age here. Perhaps Diana Evans was more on target than she realized when she asked his birth date. Think about it--I wonder how old he really is?

LSS

First of all am I the only one who thought that Tess was all banged up from the car accident? From what the windshield looked like, someone smashed into it pretty hard. It was all cracked and broken.

I also think that Courtney had something to do with Isabel's flashes about Tess. That look on her face when Isabel had a flash when she was opening up her father's BD present was far from innocent!!

Also, if the Granolith was such an important tool to the skins then why didn't the Momogram say anything about it?? Don't you think that if that was truly their mother (and not Tess's mind warp) in the momogram she would have told them about it. I don't understand how Nasedo couldn't have known about the Granolith if it was in the pod chamber this whole time. Was Nasedo really their protector??

Also, did anyone else notice that when the steel door was opening and the CW appeared it was all lit up, like when Nasedo shape shifted?? Was that really the CW?? When she used her powers later on directed at Isabel and Tess nothing was glowing. That makes me wonder!!

I really truly believe that Tess isn't who she appears to be. I'm not sure if she's gonna end up being evil, but I think Liz is right not to trust her. I think she's gonna end up being much more involved in the bad things that have happened than we realize!!

Angela

i've been lurking around and after reading the comment about the podsters maybe not being good in their previous lives and the SH one about them coming to take over the world etc.
It got me thinking about what the granolith is. (please note that i have not seen this episode, i'm from australia, this is just wild speculation) Anyway, what if it is some kind of terra forming device. If the skins can only stay on earth for 50 years, making earth like their planet would solve part of their problem.
So it could be in the pod chamber to either keep it away from the skins or for the podster to use themselves.

the kender

Welcome to the SF threads as a poster!

quote:Originally posted by mrsbehr69:
First of all am I the only one who thought that Tess was all banged up from the car accident? From what the windshield looked like, someone smashed into it pretty hard. It was all cracked and broken.

Good point. She may have been. The question would be...what made her crash and how did she get to the power station. You know, your've raised a really interesting point. I've simply assumed that she was "roughed" up by the "bad" aliens. But as you point out--maybe not. Still, one has to account for the CW's presence. Was she there all the time? Or did she just arrive?

quote:Also, if the Granolith was such an important tool to the skins then why didn't the Momogram say anything about it?? Don't you think that if that was truly their mother (and not Tess's mind warp) in the momogram she would have told them about it. I don't understand how Nasedo couldn't have known about the Granolith if it was in the pod chamber this whole time. Was Nasedo really their protector??

Of course, why Nesedo hasn't instructed them much at all is a major issue. But you are right--if it is that important, it is hard to guess why the book (remember that book that has seemingly dropped out of our plot line?]or Nesedo or the momogram hasn't mentioned it. Of course there may be a simple answer--our writers only recently "thought" it into existence!!!

quote:Also, did anyone else notice that when the steel door was opening and the CW appeared it was all lit up, like when Nasedo shape shifted?? Was that really the CW?? When she used her powers later on directed at Isabel and Tess nothing was glowing.

Yeah, I noticed...consistency, consistency...wherefore art thou?

The only glowing powers we've seen are shapeshifting (with and without tic tacs), Michael's "killing" force...and the opening of that door in Surprise. Of course hands "glow" at times (healing and opening the cave...can't remember if Nesedo/Max's hand glowed when he killed that agent) and we had that glowing "scan" of Liz's arm by Max.

Very nice observations---hope to "hear" from you more often!

LSS

So Isabel is the re-incarnation of a traitor(Valandra)? She apparently betrayed her brother for the one she loves----who was what? A skin? I thought Michael was her past love? But we all know that he is not the descendant of a Skin. So does this mean that Isabel's former self(Valandra) was "sleeping with the enemy" behind her lovers back?
[/B]

I have to admit, this very issue was a stretch for me as well. I think we were led to believe -- through Isabel's "flashbacks" (or "flash-forwards") of herself and Michael as a happy, passionate couple, and the two of them with a bouncing baby humanoid -- that Michael and Isabel were indeed a happy couple once upon a time, and would be again in the future. Remember the whole pregnancy scare?

With this new information, it seems the direction will be that her and Michael's relationship was built around politics or military strength -- for the good of the nation, as it were. This might be a smart move (if fans can forget the flashbacks and drama) since the whole concept of an Isabel/Michael romance seemed pretty odd, if not somewhat icky and incestuous, to the viewers.

This is all assuming, of course, that the Congresswoman wasn't giving her a load of hooey to gain Isabel's sympathy. Is's freakout scene in the pod chamber was far too intense to suggest that Whitaker was lying to her, although I liked what someone said about Tess being the traitor, not Isabel.

One minor character inconsistency I noted -- tell me if I'm crazy: I found it odd that Tess would "call to" Isabel when she was in trouble and project herself into Isabel's thoughts instead of Max's. The whole time Tess has been on the scene, she's been trying to establish a bond with Max. Why wouldn't she use Max as the receiver of her trauma so he could be her hero? Unless she intentionally wanted to put Isabel in the path of the Congresswoman, or intentionally wanted to cause her harm. Which seems unlikely too. Never mind.

1. This has already been asked by JC but I also wonder - 'Wouldn't Tess have overheard the conversation between Is and the CW? And if she did - I wonder whom she will tell? Maybe Max and wouldn't that be interesting.

2. Is says in her soliloquy at the end that it is her 18th birthday. Max turned 17 last season and only the summer has passed - so Isabel is older than Max? I know that the writers had to make her 18 for plot purposes - I mean a 17-year-old dating Grant wouldn't fly. And couldn't they have picked a better looking actor or at least someone with some chemistry with Katie? I mean if this character is supposed to be the love of her previous life? I am also of the belief that if Is did, as the CW indicates, 'betray' her brother that it was either unknowingly or with the belief in a different outcome. But I kind of like the theory that Tess is involved in the betrayal somehow.

3. As to their previous lives - the overall theme of Roswell could be one of redemption and how the combination of human DNA and human nurturing affect them and their decisions regarding Destiny.

4. I also agree with Elliott regarding Liz's statement 'I just don't trust her'. I think if the writers do hold to the mommygram statement "you will know them by the evil within' - Liz may be the one who can sense the evil within - as she did with Nasedo in Max to the Max - however this begs the question - 'Was Nasedo evil?' Apparently not given his accepted role as 'protector'. (It's this sort of inconsistency that makes it difficult to surmise anything!)

5. Maybe Tess didn't defend herself because she didn't want to? Grant's cut must be significant - since it was noticed by so many other characters - how did he get it? He's involved with Tess somehow. If he barely knows the girl why would he have her cell phone number?

6. Courtney makes the comment something like 'Tess hasn't been kidnapped.' Seems odd she would say something like that. I think she's a good guy.

Juniper Very good question your last one. If it wasn't merely a plot device to get Is involved, this is a very good point!

6. Courtney makes the comment something like 'Tess hasn't been kidnapped.' Seems odd she would say something like that. I think she's a good guy.

Juniper Very good question your last one. If it wasn't merely a plot device to get Is involved, this is a very good point!
[/B]

Provence, I don't remember the Courtney quote, but (if I may pose a fantasy theory) it seems the podster royals/skins war was a class war akin to the French Revolution. Courtney as a member of the servant class may have had a crush on Michael on the home planet, and therefore may be inclined to help the royals. This would explain the Congresswoman's photo file on Courtney. If she was close to the royal family back home she would be valuable to the skins, but she still poses a security threat and needs to be watched.

I'm more inclined to think the stepson story was a cover, but if we all seem to agree that the skin essence inhabits a preexisting human body, then Courtney's skin essence may have taken over the body of the stepson's girlfriend. In other words, we're leaning toward believing the congresswoman wasn't always a skin. She was raised and educated and won an election, then was taken over by a skin. If that's the case, Courtney's alien essence may have taken over the body of the human that was once the congresswoman's stepson's girlfriend.

This to me seems like Vonnegut's concept of a "karass" -- a small group of people destined to travel a life path that is in some way connected, in order to care for each other. (I remember this also came up in 'My So-Called Life.') Courney and Whitaker's lives were entwined when they were human, so the two skins took on their bodies to continue to work together.

Don't shoot me. It's just a theory.

I suspect Tess broadcast the visions, it seems like something her Mindwarp power could do. Isabel might be the most receptive/perceptive of the Podsters (and so the only one Tess could reach) or maybe Tess just feels closest to Isabel.

I was wodering why Isabel didn't heal Tess right away, but I think she probably either sensed CW's presence, heard CW at some point, or was just afraid that whoever it was would arrive soon. I think there's a possibility that it isn't that Isabel&Max can't heal Tess but that there wasn't enough time and things were hectic at the end. I think someone will have to heal her, because I know that if someone were to go around looking like Tess did , even cleaned up some, that it would raise alot of questions.
I also thought after reading some posts that Tess was sending the visions. Since she was hurt, maybe that was why she couldn't send better directions (although it seemed Isabel&Maria found the place fast). Just my thoughts. Sorry if someone has already said this, I'm not all the way caught up yet.

MUCH LUV...OTR31
"Grey ceiling on the earth..."

LSS

LSS, do you really think that MrsE actually had a precognitive thought here??? As sweet as she is, she'll believe anything you tell her. "You mean Max and Liz were cleaning erasers when this happened."

Sorry MrsE, but you either KNOW and play dumb or you are dumb.

Sorry MrsE, but you either KNOW and play dumb or you are dumb.

Mrs. Evans was being a concerned parent. She doesn't want her teenaged daughter going out with a "twentysomething" whether she knows he is much, much older or not. I don't think Mrs. Evans is dumb, just wilfully blind so she can pretend to have a perfect family. We all know Moms like her. And the older man/young female teenager is usually a recipe for disaster whether the person is an evil alien or not.

Regarding the Granolith, I did not care so much about what it did, but why it was there behind the pods. First, it's in an obvious spot. Second, the pod chamber is so dirty and dusty (cleaner than my house right now) I was amazed to see how clean that inner chamber was. It was anticeptic and in pristine shape!! The Granolith itself reminds me of dental equipment! But why would the podster have something like this (that the Skins want) if they did not need it. I think the Granolith makes-alters-combines-mixes DNA/Essenses. This makes a lot of sense, because it was behind the pod chamber. Let's assume that the podsters were made, but had to be monitored for a while. It would be stupid to just get rid of the equipment that made this fact possible. So, they kept it around, just in case. Once the podsters reached a maturity, the medical ones left. Also, when CW says she needs the Granolith, she refered to her lack of DNA. So I really do think that the granolith is medical equipment.
quote:
Also, did anyone else notice that when the steel door was opening and the CW appeared it was all lit up, like when Nasedo shape shifted?? Was that really the CW?? When she used her powers later on directed at Isabel and Tess nothing was glowing. That makes me wonder!!

Angela

Yes, I noticed that myself. I am surprised on how similiar Skins are to Podsters regarding powers. That is why I think the were formerly the same race: The Podster v Skins are a result of two different technologies to reformate their civilization into Earth capable. The Podster technology was a the better of the two. (I bet this make no sense.)

Jamethiel, what you stated is true. I couldn't agree more. This is the reason why Toyhouse irrates me to death. I want MrsE to know the truth. I think she deserves it! I don't think she's as dumb as she pretends to be. I don't think anyone can be that deluded from what's right in front of them.

Hi QFanny!

Truthfully? No. What I do think is that that remark operates on two levels: 1) the obvious one...that of a concerned parent (though it is a bit amusing that such a mudane thing would alert her when her son has been tortured, witnessed a murder, etc.),
and 2) the not so obvious one--IF (and we really have not had this confirmed) Grant is Izzy's formet love and IF the podsters' essences were part of that '47 crash THEN we have 53 earth years + his former age to account for. Thus--when viewed in this light, that statement could be a bit of delicious irony on the part of our writers.

I did not mean to imply any pre-cog...as you know--the poor woman gives new meaning to the need for the question: It is XXXX o'clock...do YOU know where your kids are?

LSS

And I have long speculated (and worried) about those elusive lost memories. IF Max can retrieve those memories, then he really will need a therapist!!! Talk about split personalities!!!

And with Michael's current state of paranoia and general meanness...I certainly am not calmed to know that he is getting more powerful by the day. And Max should be worried as well!

LSS

I've thought to great extent about what Max & crew might have been like on the home planet. As the podsters learn/accept more of their alien selves, they're seemingly losing their compassion, their humanity (Ask Not - Isabel: "We have to kill him Max"). They all seem colder, reluctant to accept "destiny" but seemingly helpless to stop it? Max particularly the most reluctant, but despite this, he seems to be bossing everyone around; but a more antagonizing / condescending leader. Of course, this is just my opinion.

In the "Ask Not" thread it was speculated that Max's "denying of duty for Liz" was rather a negative thing, but perhaps it is exactly what needs to be done if the podsters are to survive? To eventually live on Earth peacefully? Denying this planet / duty (because it will ultimately be the right choice for the survival of Earth?). Max's words were directed at Liz, but could Liz be a metaphor for all of humanity (I deny my former planet for my new one?)?

Could the Podians have made the podsters the way they are and sent them to Earth in an attempt to alter "fate"? Try to add a significantly different factor(s) [environment / physiology], but not realizing exactly what the outcome might be (just as long as the end is different from last time)? Which seems to be an incredible gamble. Or did the Podians realize that -after extensively studying humanity/Earth-with a "human" upbringing (as well as physiology) the "Royal Four" would be better leaders / warriors then they ever were on Twilo? To what end? To rule Earth, live equally alongside the pre-existing inhabitants or abandon it completely? Although, if they were to abandon it, why is this seemingly important Granolith (podstermatic?) here? Is it *safer* here? Is there more than one? Or is it here because Twilo was/is dying (red giant mention in SH), the Podians are preparing for the end of their planet? They recreate themselves (via Granolith?) into human hybrids (more human than human - homosuperior - hence Earth will have a new dominant species?).

I wonder if a peaceful end can come between the podsters and Skins on Earth? The Skins apparently need this Granolith... Why? To be stronger than the Podians to destroy them and/or merely to survive? If they only want to survive (not rule) then could a compromise of some kind eventually be made? But do the Podians want a peaceful end? Do they want peace in between Podsters/Skins or do they just want the Podsters to squash all Skins, no questions asked (so Podians can have full reign on Earth)?

Melodious

I too had originally wondered why Tess didn't call on Max for help. But then I think Lorrilie is right. Remember in FourSquare, Tess told Isabel in the Evan's kitchen that she felt the closest to Isabel?

AND ON A DIFFERENT NOTE:
Ever since we found out the Whittaker was an EA, I've been tracing back to Skin&Bones and Ask Not in my head, and especially the Whittaker/Pierce relationship. I don't think Whittaker was "faking" it when she asked Liz if Mr. Pierce called. She seemed genuinely hurt when Liz told her that Mr. Pierce left her a nasty voice message.

Which leads me to think... maybe she didn't know that Pierce was one of the podster's species. She killed Nasedo (if she did, that is) when Nasedo was Ed Harding. Maybe she didn't know that Mr. Pierce was also Nasedo. How do we know the EA know that Nasedo could shapeshift?

Lorrilei, good thoughts on Valandra. I agree, it is probably Isabel not Tess, for the reasons you give. I don't think she did it maliciously, and now she is on her guard. I just wish she'd dump Grant (preferably down a deep hole) who is probably the one who she betrayed her brother for last time. Excuse me, my Stargazer tendencies are showing again. I also agree with your views on why Tess would want to call Isabel, but I still think that the nature of Is' abilities may have made her the one easiest to call to as well. Dreamwalking is another form of long distance communication, after all.

What else... so much to say about this episode. I love reading all your thoughts, I'll come back to this thread later (tomorrow?) and see if you've left anything for me to say.

My half cent's worth:
I think Mrs. Evans knows A LOT but finds it more comfortable and workable to live with at least an appearance of denial. For instance, she probably senses something more wrong with Grant than just his age, but will come to terms with it with Isabel by only discussing the disparity of ages.

BTW, how old is the actor?

If Isabel/Valandra really did betray Max in her former life in a revolution, who's to say she didn't have reasons. We don't know what kind of ruler Max was.

Mama Evans comment to Isabel, "Blame your brother it was all his idea," made me think that Max as ruler planned the whole human hybrid thing before he died. What kind of ruler is so reluctant to lose power that he resorts to such a plan? It's a little creepy.

"Look for the evil within." Sometimes the evil is within us and not from an outside source.

And the whole "history always repeats itself," maybe this time it Max's turn to betray his people for love.

Other thoughts, did you guys slo-mo Isabel's flash after she wiped the blood off Grant's neck? She saw the future of her and Maria in front of that Red's sign. Is that freaky or what?

And how did they ever get that Granolith in that cave after the '47 crash?

Later,
nermal

My sentiments exactly nermal... Yes "Mom" said the podsters would only decipher their enemies by the "evil within".... but of course, "Mom" could be ridiculously biased. Unless Mom was being poetic, "You must defeat the evil within yourselves before you can succeed"... sounds very Kung-Fu.

quote:And the whole "history always repeats itself," maybe this time it Max's turn to betray his people for love.

And I'm betting it's probably the right decision this time... although now I'm being ridiculously biased (Dreamer to the core)

quote:And how did they ever get that Granolith in that cave after the '47 crash?

"After the '47 crash" nermal? I say it was there before the '47 crash. Mel wonders if the Incas had a Granolith? "Lost Civilizations" / Ancient Languages & Cultures revisited anyone?

Melodious

I am very curious what Mr Evans' gift to Isabel was. Drat. Interrupted before she opened it. Inquiring minids want to know. Did we really need to know that he was beside himself in Minneapolis? Perhaps the thought of a choice between green bean cake or tabasco cake sent him packing. Has Mrs. Evans been hitting the red meat and garlic lately? Is she a woman who runs with coyotes?

Seriously, is there something in Minneapolis that we should know about? Any ideas from any residents of the region/city?

Perhpas he has associates at the Bakken Museum, which is devoted to the study of electricity and magnetism, with the applications of E-M to science and medicine, as well as having an extensive collection of early e-m devices.

Or perhaps he had business at the U of Minnesota in Minneapolis with its major colleges of Agriculture, Food and Environmental Sciences and institutes which include: the Minnesota Agricultural Experimental Station, Biological Processes Technical Institute, Biomedical Engineering Center, Hormel Institute, Food and Animal Biotech Center (.."enhance health, disease resistance, modulate growth and development, develop genetic maps and markers for biological performance, yadayada...).

Other thoughts about related science, biotechnology, archaeology, the paranormal, etc in or near Minneapolis?? Anything related to Florida (Florida's Naturals).

Without the 'unlocking'of the contents of memory, perhaps the podsters will be compelled to repeat actions that led to their, and others', demise? Are their multiple timelines involved here? Are we actually in the same timeline as we were when we left Destiny?

I'm sensing a bizarre quality to a lot of actions, behaviors and characters. Dream and or nightmare quality to a lot of events. CW was a bit over the top.

When Max said "I'm coming for you, Liz.." was this an allusion to an act of commission or ommission in another time and/or place? Is this the PIVOTAL act?

But if her (CW) story is for real, does it necessarily have to apply to Isabel just as perhaps holo-mom's message was not meant for them specifically? My sense is that the podsters are not the one's all the others (be they various human or alien types, or hybrids or 'ready-mades') think they are.

It is possible the podsters were created by some process that has less to do with the alien (except for alien genetics) and more to do with experiments of this earth. But part of their genetic makeup is alien. Do their memory fragments belong to 'the others' who are truly hidden or died ages ago? Iz doesn't know granolith from granola.

I think alien central has a lot of crossed wires, timelines and missed appointments. I don't think it is as simple a dichotomy as skins v. pods. Pieces appear to be missing from this puzzle.

I don't think any of the -sedos we know of had anything to do with Max and Iz being with the Evans or Michael being with Hank. EdHarding did not recognize them during TLV (ie, when they came to 'rescue' Liz). Tess is of somethings else. I think she has been around a long time, just as Harding. They were lonely. They hooked up. (BTW- REDHAWK, I think her ring is an 'Om' symbol).

Some other plan had to have been afoot in Roswell. Someone wondered about the granolith placement relative to the crash. Perhaps the crash was staged to cover something else going on in Roswell?

Comments: Isabel did not really answer why she was in that dress. If she was indeed surprised by the party, where was she going? Grant certainly was not in a tuxedo and gave no indication of plans for anything fancy. Is there someone else?

Did anyone else take a good look at the party guests that are other than the one's we know, and wonder who those people were? Who invited these people? Very few of them appear to be of the same age or school attendance of our podsters. I'm sure someone asked already, but where are the Parkers?

Rosta

I do too Mel. I had something up about the Incas on the late SIGNS&SYMBOLS thread. Just a mention on the new S&S thread, but a lot on ancient languages, lost civilizations. I have not had much time to read beyond what I posted there. Check it out, and if you, or anyone else, come across anything interesting, post it there, if you can (with links if relevant).
Rosta

When Whitaker said she killed Nacedo "to save you from the other three" she had just been taklking about the hybrids. So she means Max, Michael and Tess, not the other Skins. We still don't know how many there are. (Whitaker, revealed and dead. Courtney, revealed. Brody, probably, Grant, probably. If the Skins are shapeshifters, they could be anyone at all.)

Whitaker also said "my time" is ending- forget the exact words, but it was my not our. That explains why she is so active in kidnapping Tess and facing down Isabel. Courtney probably has a lot more time, allowing her to wait and watch, hoping to learn more. I wonder if perhaps she is as young as she appears? Her trick with the drinks seemed rather reckless and unnecessary, probably not something someone who had been hiding their abilities for long would do.

I wonder if Tic Tac is a Skin? Maybe his time, and his skin, is running out, and he is staying alive using those pills. Just a thought.

When we first saw the visions of it, I thought it must be a neon sign along a road, perhaps a truck stop, somewhere where enough people would be in the vicinity that it would make sense to spend the money on a neon sign.
But when we actually see it, it's not connected to any kind of a business. There are no buildings nearby, not even abandoned ones. There's no evidence of how the electricity is getting to it. It irritates me, because it's the kind of striking visual that the X-Files will use ONLY because it's a striking visual, with no meaning at all, and yet it's not something that would exist in the real world. It's part of an unreal world created solely to set up good camera shots, rather than because it has anything to do with the plot.

In the show, we know that Philip Evans is a lawyer. Have they ever said what kind? In the books, he's an environmental lawyer. I've wondered how much work an environmental lawyer would be able to drum up in Roswell. But anyway, Grant initially told Isabel that he was surveying the land for a chemical company that wanted to build there. Being an X-Files fan, I thought of the nefarious Roush company. But what if Philip Evans is in Minneapolis because of something related to this chemical company? It seems reasonable that after all these years of alien and government intrigue, plain old human capitalists would have gotten a whiff of something they could make money off of.

Grant is *skanky.* If they actually do pair him with Isabel, it will bolster my suspicion that Yes! the writers are Tess/Isabel shippers! And they keep pairing Is with wholly inappropriate men so that it will seem so reasonable when they reveal what they keep hinting at, that Tess and Isabel are the great eternal soulmates here.

A question: How did the skins find the podsters. Did Whittaker have everybody in Roswell bugged. 3 months and they found them out. On the other hand, only Michael (at Pierce's gravesite) and Max (at school) have only felt their presence.
If Tess was evil (as to let the skins know where they were), they would of felt the evil within her. Even if the mamagram was false, they did feel the presence of some the skins.

Could Grant have been the alien love that Isabel betrayed her family for. Why does she have such an attraction to him? (wearing that dress for just going out - must have some very fancy places in Roswell). I just don't understand how she can tell Alex she can't get involved, not actually telling him that she's breaking up with him, as to leave him waiting for her till she is ready(leaving him hope that they will be once again together), then in front of him go out with another guy!!!!!!What's with that. After that wonderful show he performed, I feel even worse for him.

Evans

I'm enjoying all the interesting speculation that has been going on.

LSS- I've enjoyed your posts. Are you a writer for the show? Your posts are always intelligent and balanced.

Now here are some responses/observations:

LSS you said:
In WR Nesedo/Harding suggested that he was more equiped to face the enemy than they were. But I got the sense that this meant that they weren't ready (remember Michael complaining that he didn't have a how to "manual" for his powers. But then--your point is taken...why didn't he "teach" them? Of course it could be argued that he didn't have the time. things were pretty hectic in those last eppys...and then after that he was subbing for Pierce.

JC response:

That's true. But in Destiny, Nacedo said he wasn't there to show them how the orbs work. His only "job" was to "protect them/keep them alive". (One of the two.) Still, like you said he didn't have much time and he did attempt to teach Tess and Michael and even offered "biology lessons later" in the WR. I just think he needed to consider career changes.

LSS quote:
Of course the question is...IS Tess the enemy? Or will she become one since no one likes her? That address book was pretty damning don't you think? Even I'm starting to feel sorry for her.

JC response:
Yeah, the writers are doing everything they can to make us sympathize with this girl, aren't they? But here's a thought: What would Michael's address book look like? He doesn't seem the type to make a lot of casual acquaintances and I doubt he's kept a the numbers to Hank's family in his book. So it would seem his book would mirror hers with the exception of the addresses of Liz, Maria, Alex and Valenti. Of all the podsters, only Max and Isabel should have a complete looking address book because of extended adoptive family. I think more than the number of addresses she has or lacks, the question is the quality of the relationships she does have.

(1) Why is it that Tess can remeber Max's love for her on their home planet but can't remember Isabel's treason? (2)Could it be that the images Isabel received in Surprise were a new power she's developing? A variation on her dreamwalking, perhaps, like a 6th sense when one of the podsters are in danger? She did get those flashes even when Courtney wasn't in direct view (the kitchen scene). (3) I wonder if the pod chamber is actually a part of the ship that crashed which is now camoflaged.(4)Someone mentioned that CW may have grabbed the wire to attack Izzy since the skin's powers may be ineffectual against the podsters. But do you recall that CW threw Tess around with just a wave of her hand in front of Isabel? Seems pretty effectual to me. (5)Is did a little turn around between Ask Not and Surprise didn't she? In Ask Not, she had no problem with killing Brody. Only Max felt they needed to gather more info before engaging in thoughtless violence. But in Surprise she knew CW was a Skin, had attacked Tess and was poised to kill her. After defending herself, she was distraught. Also, she seemed a little quick to accept CW's story, didn't she?

(6) Someone gave the thought that if Tess were an evil alien (not necessarily a skin since we haven't seen her shedding yet) that the rest of the podsters would have sensed it. Interestingly, none of the podsters sensed anything while being around courtney or whittaker. There are only 3 times they sensed any danger:

(A) Nacedo when he was about to be killed. (B) Michael when he was observing the excavation of the bones.
(C) Max while being stalked in the school hallway.

On each of these occasions, we saw through the eyes of the "skin" in a hazy glow. The glow could indicate the skins have to alter form to kill. (after all we see no glow when we see through the eyes of the podsters). So, could it be that the skins have to alter form in order to kill and that is the tip off for the podsters OR is the intent to kill on the part of the skins in and of itself what the podsters sense? If the first thought is true, it brings up the question why did CW not transform when preparing to kill Izzy? If the later is true, it may explain what was meant by "the evil within". The podsters would sense the skins only when they were about to kill.

It seemed obvious to me. I assumed it was another in-joke since Jason Behr is known to be from there . . .

I don't know why Tess or Isabel would have been in league with their enemies the Skins either in this life or the last. But Tess's contempt for humanity would seem to put her ideologically closer to the Skins than to our podsters anyway.

Tess's personality would suggest a traitor in this or any other life, whereas Isabel's doesn't. And could it be that this was the script writers' original plan? Perhaps revamped because a larger part for Katie Heigl was mandated for this season?

I think that Whittaker may have been confused as to who was "valandra" because she may have felt that Michael was acting more like the leader and Tess was spending time with him. Or maybe she knows Max is the leader but since Max and Is spend so much time together and Tess/Michael had been, she was confused on this point. Plus, with an obvious triangle going with Tess/Max/Liz, maybe Whittaker thought that mirrored events from the past somehow.

Now here is an interesting thought. What if whitaker isn't dead... Maybe, just maybe, Isabel only eliminated the "skin", thus the floating skin. Maybe that left our evil alien in the "invisible" mode. Afterall, we do know that they can be invisible or chameleon-like. So, I think it is possible that Whittaker is still around.

I didn't tape this episode, grrr, and I have been wondering about Whitaker's speech to Isabel...I am fuzzy on some aspects, everyone seems to have taken what she said differently . Could someone put up exactly what was said?? I would be in your debt...

~Sheri

What if Whitaker was right in the first place?? what if Tess is "Valandra"? I know CW said she betrayed her brother, but she didn't say who that brother was.... I mean what if in their past lives Max and Tess had true loves but for the sake of the planet (an attempt at peace) an arranged marriage was made, but this failed by the betrayal of Tess. Maybe Tess was sent to earth with the others in hopes of creating that peace through Tess and Max now. If they grew up together knowing they were meant to be together then the union would be strong uniting their people. But this didn't happen. So, now history is trying to replay itself. The difference being that Tess has no "true love" in this life (yet anyways) because Nacedo was able to condition her. However, history could still play out in this life for them, thru Tess, her betrayal could be in the form of jealousy.

I do not fell that Michael and Isabel are in this for two reasons. First, they both said they were so happy in their dreams of each other. Those were to awaken them to what could be... and it was nice. Tess and Max on the other hand did not express any such feelings. Instead their dreams even seemed uncomfortable. Nacedo may wish them to "mate" before they have a chance to allow history and true feelings to interfere.

Now, the idea that the war was a civil war between two "races" of the same people, makes more sense. Maybe the marriage of Max and Tess was between these races. Many of you have expressed these thoughts concerning Tess before and I think monday's show helps that theory along. This all makes sense to me, but if Isabel really is "Valandra" then I would have to agree that Grant just might be that true love....

Well, there you have it!
~Sheri

I tend to agree with you. I still say when Liz's intuition goes off, she usually tends to be right. (Her initial feelings about Topolsky in Morning After and then again in Crazy are examples.) She didn't tell Is that she didn't "like" tess. She said she didn't "trust" her. Foreshadowing maybe?

In any case, if Tess has been trained by Nacedo for 16 years and can remember so much about "home" (look at Four Square, Max to the Max and Ask Not) it seems she would have remembered an important detail like who betrayed them. Even if she only got "impresions and feelings". The question is:Why would she not disclose this info. if she has it? And if she is involved in some underhanded plot with the skins, why and what is it?

Space Mom- I enjoyed your posts too. I do think its a little soon to say we know for sure the skins can turn invisible or camaflouge themselves. The only evidence we have of that is Michael at the excavation and Max in the school. In Michael's case, there was a lot of shrubbery around. He sensed something and went after it but the skin could have been hidden by the bushes. In Max's case, he hid behind some lockers for a few seconds before he doubled back to catch the stalker. It may have been enough time for the skin to break off its attack and head down another way. (I know, how convenient. But just trying to get into the writer's heads.)

JC

quote:Originally posted by JC:
LSS- I've enjoyed your posts. Are you a writer for the show?

I am a writer but not for the show (I write non-fiction books). Aside from writing I am a professor who teaches SF (among other things) to University Seniors.

quote:...in Destiny, Nacedo said he wasn't there to show them how the orbs work. His only "job" was to "protect them/keep them alive". (One of the two.)

True--but since the lack of information (esp. in this case) could be lethal, it really presents a logic/plausibility problem for him to refuse because its simply not "his" job (not to mention the fact that the "request" came from his King).

quote:Yeah, the writers are doing everything they can to make us sympathize with this girl, aren't they? But here's a thought: What would Michael's address book look like? He doesn't seem the type to make a lot of casual acquaintances and I doubt he's kept a the numbers to Hank's family in his book. So it would seem his book would mirror hers with the exception of the addresses of Liz, Maria, Alex and Valenti. Of all the podsters, only Max and Isabel should have a complete looking address book because of extended adoptive family. I think more than the number of addresses she has or lacks, the question is the quality of the relationships she does have.

You know--that is a good point about the address book. How many friends outside of our select group does Max have? Isabel used to have some--but they seemed only superficial and, in fact, were dropped after Toy House.

Nice talking to you! Good observations!

LSS

As to my earlier thought about Nacedo not teaching the kids, my point wasn't that he would refuse to do so but rather that he claimed that was not what he was "sent" for. He claimed he was "sent" to be their protector. This was in connection with the previous speculation that he was weaker than the pod squad and so was killed more easily. It doesn't seem like a well-laid plan to send Nacedo as the sole protector of the pod squad if he was in fact weaker than they are.

-JC

The lack of information, even considering Nacedo's haste to take over the Special Unit before it could strike again, doesn't make a lot of sense for a completely benevolent guardian. I think that Nacedo was going to use the information, doled out gradually, to keep the Podsters following their pre-planned destiny. Given complete information as to what those plans are, the Podsters could make a free choice about whether to accept their destiny- not something that those who sent them to Earth wanted.

I don't think there is a contradiction between Ask Not and Surprise. Isabel thought it was necessary to kill Brody (she probably was, and is, right). She would probably have been just as distraught afterwards though. Accepting something as being necessary, like killing Whitaker clearly was, doesn't mean you like doing it.

First, when Iz and Maria were at the scene where Tess wrecked, they said there were two sets of tire tracks. Who else was with the CW? Grant? Courtney might have been working, but we don't know. There may be lots of skins who have recently transferred to Roswell.

Second, Nasedo sleeping with the congresswoman is a bit kinky. He was an SSer pretending to Pierce, who may have been a skin, but was pretending to be a human. She was a Skin pretending to be a human. How confusing were the sexual behaviors in that bed? It's almost funny to imagine two aliens of different species secretly trying to carry on an affair as humans without each other knowing.
Was Nasedo trying to get info from her, or was she trying to get info from him? Nasedo was killed as Ed Harding not Pierce, presumably by her. Did she kill her lover without knowing? She seemed to actually be upset that he did not return (but played drunk to get the info from Liz).

Third, the CW said they only have 50 years as a Skin and her time was nearly up. It seems she came after the crash then, and others came aftr her. If the skins have been sending agents for the past 53 years, then how many are there? Have the SSers also been sending them. (Where is Tic-tac?) Also about the Skins, CW said they don't have the DNA to live here in their natural form - was it the Skins Atherton had been writing about(lung capacity, brain capacity)? If the SSers are able to live here long-term, like Nasedo, then maybe Earth was picked long ago as a safe planet for the podsters, but the Skins figured out a way to survive by giving up their natural form.

BTW : I loved the fact that Isabel "got the congresswoman's dander up" at the end.

I wonder how often Valenti pinches himself these days?

Poor Max. If he gets more of his memory back than just the BEM, he may remember Isabel's betrayal in the previous life. He is already afraid of his adoptive parents rejecting him. How traumatic for him when his true love(Liz) and brother(Michael) both reject him in this life. If the people closest to him are not loyal in this life or the other, will he think he is not worthy of loyalty? I hope he kept the number of that shrink. Sad to think Tess may be the only one he can trust.

I don't think there is a contradiction between Ask Not and Surprise. Isabel thought it was necessary to kill Brody (she probably was, and is, right). She would probably have been just as distraught afterwards though. Accepting something as being necessary, like killing Whitaker clearly was, doesn't mean you like doing it.

[/B]

***bkwrm79-Stargazer,

I still have a problem with the fact that in Ask Not, both Isabel and Michael were both ready to kill Brody on suspicions only. It was totally out of character for both of them. Michael (who in WR confronted Nacedo/Ed about his callous attitude toward killing and who has shown nothing but regrets and remorse since killing Pierce) and Isabel (who has NEVER before shown a killer attitude) exhibited rather cold and calculating reasonings for wanting to kill Brody. Michael killed Pierce in self-defense, to protect Valenti and the rest of them, and still he felt terrible. And now, even with no proof whatsoever, they were gung-ho to commit murder based on fears and suspicions concerning Brody. I didn't buy Isabel's reasons to Max and was appalled at the writers' lack of character loyalty on the part of Isabel and Michael in this episode. Michael, in Skin and Bones, was lamenting to Valenti how badly he felt, and in Ask Not, he's stating to Max even after Max says *This isn't us*, "It's a done deal. Brody's a dead man." Whoa!!! Where did all this hostility come from? Usually Michael reserves his hostilities for Max. Whether or not Brody is good or evil, I don't like the fact that the writers would make killing him such a callous act. I reiterate, these are NOT our beloved podsters. Too much jumping back and forth between hating to kill even though necessary and hating to kill even if NOT necessary. In Surprise, Isabel had no choice when she killed Whitaker, and I can accept that. And it was fitting that she was devasted by her actions, and that Michael was sympathetic to her plight. But, what would the ramifications have been in Ask Not if they had killed out of fear and suspicions? If they get this remorseful when they had no choice, such as in self-defense, could they have ever recovered from killing Brody for lesser reasons? Granted, Brody may be evil, but they didn't and still don't know that for sure. Randomly killing those they suspect as evil will put the podsters on a level that I'm sure none of us would like to see. Besides, except in self-defense, why is killing the "evil" ones the only answer? Whatever happened to other solutions? Please writers, let's not just make this World War III without at least trying some other methods or solutions. I can read the newspaper or watch the news on tv if I want to see senseless violence. Don't truly great leaders abhor killing? Shouldn't we? And most importantly here in Roswell, shouldn't our podsters?

Steff/RemyS

P.S. Off the subject, I found it interesting that Tess was not included in the plans when the three podsters went to the UFO center to eliminate Brody. Why was that? They still didn't trust her? They were in too big a hurry to do the dirty deed? She had other plans? Don't care, just was happy to see them portrayed as the original three, even though their destination and motives left a lot to be desired.

You made some good points. Nacedo would have been able to protect the podsters as children. Of course, he messed that up by letting 3 get out before he woke up, didn't he? But you're right, he may not have been sent to protect them from the skins. After all, when he talked about protecting them in WR it was in connection with humans. And in Destiny, he warned against using the orbs which would alert the skins to their location.

Of course, thinking about it, when the crash occured, there were other aliens on the ship. Perhaps Nacedo's "job" had to be altered due to circumstances. The aliens who were captured may have had the job of raising and teaching the kids. Who knows what nacedo's orignial assignment was. When the other aliens were captured and nacedo escaped from the special unit, he may have taken it upon himself to protect the podsters from the humans after them to give them time to learn their powers and be able to defend themselves against the skins.

[/B]

If someone else said this in future posts I am sooo sorry. As you can see I am not all the way caught up. I thought that at the time Max and Valenti find the phone and dial it or whatever, that they are searching Tess's things. I know you can turn on a cell phone and get the previous number you dialed, but does it give you the number of the last person that called you if that was the last time you used the phone? What I'm getting at is, is it possible that Tess called Grant? Or is Grants story about asking Tess about a present plausible? And also, how would he have known that Tess is particularily close to Is, I'm not sure Isabel would have told him that she's especially close to Tess. Sorry for the rambling, it has been a long day.

MUCH LUV...OTR31

Glad to see you back. I hope the paper was a success for you!

quote:
First, when Iz and Maria were at the scene where Tess wrecked, they said there were two sets of tire tracks. Who else was with the CW? Grant? Courtney might have been working, but we don't know. There may be lots of skins who have recently transferred to Roswell.
What was Brody Davis up to during this episode? Could or would he have helped out?
quote:
It's almost funny to imagine two aliens of different species secretly trying to carry on an affair as humans without each other knowing.

Was Nasedo trying to get info from her, or was she trying to get info from him? Nasedo was killed as Ed Harding not Pierce, presumably by her. Did she kill her lover without knowing? She seemed to actually be upset that he did not return (but played drunk to get the info from Liz).
Yeah, I'm confused too. When did the diddling start? If Pierce was a Skin, is this something Nasedo has to know in order to take his appearance? It's quite possible Naseda as a shapeshifter, transformed into a Skin pretending to be a human. It seems she has more power than Pierce, "Politics is the reason why you sleep with me in the first place." It would be helpful if we knew more about their relationship. Maybe we can get Liz to help out.

I found out that the real congressman for New Mexico District 2 has an office in Roswell, and has a seat a subcommittee for the Department of Defense. Perhaps the Pierce/Whitaker connection did start as a Washington style relationship. (Assuming Whitaker would hold all the same assignments as Rep. Joe Skeen.)

I also think that Courtney had something to do with Isabel's flashes about Tess. That look on her face when Isabel had a flash when she was opening up her father's BD present was far from innocent!!

Also, if the Granolith was such an important tool to the skins then why didn't the Momogram say anything about it?? Don't you think that if that was truly their mother (and not Tess's mind warp) in the momogram she would have told them about it. I don't understand how Nasedo couldn't have known about the Granolith if it was in the pod chamber this whole time. Was Nasedo really their protector??

Angela

I had never reallly thought about it, but that makes a lot of sense. There's a lot of if's, but if Tess is a skin and mind-warped the whole momo-gram thing, then she wouldn't have known where it is.
ALso, What does this Granolith do for the pod squad. Because it doesn't seem very smart for them to bring a device with them that would help their enemies.

I guess if the granolith can be used by either side, it would explain why the podsters haven't just been eliminated. I suppose Nasedo was tortured to find the granolith, and that explains why he was missing for 24 hours. The question is, did he get away to warn Max, or did they let him go so he could tell Max where it was?

Qfanny : It's too bad that both characters (Nasedo, Whitiker) were killed off before they could reveal more infomation to the podsters or us. All we know is diddly.

JC, I loved your first five poi

Congrats on your paper. Isn't it great when its all done? Hope you do something nice for yourself!

And Artic Lurker...good to see you again.

BTW--I predict that--if the spoilers are accurate--we are going to have ALOT of things to discuss over the next six eppys on this thread. So-o-o-o-o hold on to your hats cause we are in for the ride of our lives!

LSS

Keep up the good work!!

quote:Originally posted by RemyS:
Off the subject, I found it interesting that Tess was not included in the plans when the three podsters went to the UFO center to eliminate Brody. Why was that? They still didn't trust her? They were in too big a hurry to do the dirty deed? She had other plans? Don't care, just was happy to see them portrayed as the original three, even though their destination and motives left a lot to be desired.

You know, we are supposed to have 4 podsters now but our writers and the PR folk responsible for promos, posters, etc. have not really incorporated Tess into the show at the same level as the other three. This visual fact, coupled with the animosity that has been carefully nutured against Tess in the storyline, is really interesting. Either we are headed for an ironic reversal in Tess' true character where we find out we were really off base in our attitudes, or we will discover that she is really evil (and we were right all along. I'm not sure which way our writers are going with Tess--but I am sure that this suspence is intentional!

LSS

Hmmmm, my last post was quite lengthy but most of it has disappeared. It's the stuff of Science Fiction...The Incredible Shrinking Post. I blame Tess.

Just enjoying this thread so much.

Hey artic lurker- I read your post last night and responded but my post mysteriously disappeared too.

I do remember you posting that you do not believe any of the podsters have "sensed" the skins at all. When I think about it, you're right. Nacedo was tipped off by the skin laying on the ground and then looked around for his attacker. I assumed he sensed something but maybe not. Also, Max may have felt he was being followed in the same way any of us would. Michael turned in the directon of the skin and chased it but it may have been that he heard something in the bushes. It doesn't necessarily have to indicate that he sensed it. Since none of the podsters mentioned any special feelings they got when these events happened, perhaps they haven't sensed anything.

Oh, and you said Liz may be the one who can sense the "evil within" when we look at her instincts and her sensing Nacedo's true nature. That would be interesting, huh? We haven't gotten a full explanation of why Liz could see Nacedo's soul or lack of one. (Of course if this is some special ability on Liz's part I hope she doesn't have to kiss all these skins before figuring out their nature). So, you think Liz will be a bloodhound to search out evil aliens? It would make her very valuable to the podsters, wouldn't it?

It seems that I am the only one that thinks that Granolith thing is medical equipment. I guess I can live with that.

I am going back to something I thought I said on S&B about the Skins as phase shifters. This would explain the SKINS blurred vision (if they were shifting phases) and sort of explain the "shells" they need to exist on Earth. The skins they undertake would "hold" everything together. If this were true, can we assume the Whitaker is really dead? Is it possible that went into a different phase, a phase that protected her from Isabel? Also, if Whitaker is a phase shifter (and needs a skin to stop phase shifting) I think her ability to shift would be controlled by electric impulses. Perhaps that is why she was not "dead squirrel" when she used the high voltage electric service line against Isabel. And it could also explain how her "powers" activated all those electrical sparks.

Whitaker's exploding into dust seemed pretty dramatic and sorry, dry. If it was really a flesh and blood body, where was all the splatter?

This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

Hey ! That's MY prediction!

I just re-watched Ask Not and Surprise and I'm back with a few more observations. (Sorry, no theories. Just more questions.)

(1)Someone posted that perhaps the reason the pentagon went off injuring Michael but did nothing to Max was that Brody was holding it when Michael entered. But when Brody catches Max in his office snooping around, Brody doespick up the pentagon and nothing happens.

(2)Did anyone else wonder why the CW suspected Liz? It was after Liz told her Pierce left a VM telling her their relationship was over. It seemed to me her suspicions could have been raised because:

(A)She knew something about Pierce that Liz didn't. (Eg. Perhaps Pierce didn't like to leave recorded messages). This would have been perfectly normal, especially if the CW was human. OR...

(B)She knew Pierce was dead. But this supposition would seem to indicate that she knew Nacedo was posing as Pierce, which raises the question again why did Nacedo not know that she was a skin? (Of course, we might suppose that she tortured Nacedo and found out that way.) Of the two, this seems more likely since she has now been revealed as a skin and Nacedo's murderer.

Let's suppose that we accept one of these theories, say theory B. Now we may be able to see why the CW suspected Liz not only knew more than she was telling but perhaps was involved with the pod squad. But the question remains, why would she automatically assume that Liz's boyfriend was an alien or the girl who "stole him" from her was an alien, more or less Valandra? Couldn't the pod squad have friends who were not romantically involved with one of them? What would have happened if Maria were the one working at the CW's office?

(3)And this one was somewhat touched on already but in Surprise Is gets her inital flash when she sees Grant's blood. Just a point I'm not sure was mentioned, the flash (which was pretty quick) was not of their homeworld but of the REDS neon sign where they found Tess' car. So, perhaps Grant was involved in Tess' kidnapping, unless we suppose the flashes and the contact w/Grant were unrelated. She had them after he left so that could be a point.

Anyway just some thoughts. Talk to ya!-JC

She's a congresswoman, everyone. The skins didn't just drop her off on May 14th when the signal went off and she suddenly became one. She had to be educated as a human in (likely) New Mexico, go through local politics, perhaps assist other senators in national politics, and work very hard to become a Congresswoman right at the time the podsters were reaching maturity and learning of their own powers. I don't think it was just a coincidence Pierce happened to be getting seriously involved in hunting the podsters at the same time. (...)

SisofNight

Whoa! GOOD question. The Skins may have been around all along, encouraging an FBI task force. CW may have been intended as a nobody, but seized an oppertunity to get some power. Perhaps her (human) husband was a Congressman, died, and she was appointed to fill his post? She could then run on her own, and stay in Congress. (It happens often enough with humans.)
And, if she was in Congress, she would not have been in Roswell. She probably represents an area including several cities. She might have her principal office elsewhere. Some fuss, over a kid that turned out not to have been shot? Not worth noticing.
It's definitely something that needs explained. And, how do they explain her disappearence? Do they have Tess mindwarp someone from the Washington office, to the effect that they saw CW come back to town, and have her seem to disappear there? Maybe Tic-tac will turn up, and can mimic her...

quote:I also think that Courtney had something to do with Isabel's flashes about Tess. That look on her face when Isabel had a flash when she was opening up her father's BD present was far from innocent!!
I think Courtney may have noticed Isabel getting something, but I don't think she was sending the flashes. Remember, only Tess and Isabel seem to have mental abilities. It's reasonable to suppose that Tess could only contact Isabel. As for the gift, I thought that was anonymous; and was really from Courtney, to tease Isabel.

quote:Also, did anyone else notice that when the steel door was opening and the CW appeared it was all lit up, like when Nasedo shape shifted?? Was that really the CW?? When she used her powers later on directed at Isabel and Tess nothing was glowing. That makes me wonder!!
True. I thought that the person on the other side of the door would be a shapeshifter. (Tic-tac, where are you?) And CW didn't glow when she should have, using her powers. Inconsistant?

quote:I really truly believe that Tess isn't who she appears to be. I'm not sure if she's gonna end up being evil, but I think Liz is right not to trust her. I think she's gonna end up being much more involved in the bad things that have happened than we realize!!
Angela
Well, somethings fishy are going on with Courtney, and Isabel, and Liz, and Tess. Let's hope that there's a logical explanation for all of this.

Is anyone else concerned that the Skins seem to have podster-like abilities? :goof:

Someone questioned whether or not CW was really dead. There was all that dead skin (pun intended ) floating around, and there was a crispy-critter lying on the ground... sort of a BEM looking thing, but it was smoking... not tobacco... really smoking. Yes, CW is dead.

About whether or not Courtney was sending Isabel the images. I've got to say that I think she was. The look on her face was very sly and knowing. I also think her comment to Isabel "This is your night" was far from innocent. It sure was Isabel's night... but in an entirely un-fun way.

About the attitudes of Michael and Isabel adn killing Brody. Perhaps their "just kill him" attitude was a little strong... but remember, Nasedo had just been killed and they were a bit freaked about it, and the knowledge that the enemy was indeed in Roswell. Whether or not they would have gone through with it is sheer speculation. If Max had not stopped them, they might have stopped themselves when it really came down to it. So far our Podsters have only killed in self-defense... hopefully this will not change.

Hopefully I'll wake up soon and will be able to converse in a civilized manner

Hey ! That's MY prediction!

Oh, I'm not sure I want it anyway. I've been reading too many references to Liz's line about not trusting Tess.

And, hey y'all, I just posted some more symbol stuff on the Season 1 archive site; the new stuff starts at this page: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/color.htm
It's mildly relevent to this discussion because of the speculations on who's evil and who's good.

Consider youreslves BUMPED!!

bump
bump
bump

we don't belong on the second page

Is anyone else concerned that the Skins seem to have podster-like abilities? :goof:

Reggie: You are so right about the arcing. I would have to agree with you that the service was dead then.

I thought I mentioned a few times that the Skins and Podsters have similiar abilities! I don't know if I express my observations with concern, but it suggests that either skins are advanced humans (like the pods) or that whole, "your powers are human" explanation from Nasedo in WR would be a blantant lie! If the latter, which is more likely, this would tear up a lot of Liz theories that she is a more advanced human than the others.

So I'm just going to throw in a couple of things and hope it's not desperately redundant.

In terms of the first season, when we felt sure it was a meaningful galaxy, a recurring theme was the idea of inner knowing, "following your heart" (which has already been refreshed in Episode2:2), of people discovering knowledge within themselves. "How did you know to do that?" "I don't know - - I just knew."

We've seen it in this season as the PodSquad discover their powers; and Episode2:3 ended with Max refreshing it yet again (to Iz): "From now on I guess we'll trust your instincts."

So with the importance of that concept as a framework, I remember that it was not only Liz who has never trusted Tess: most significantly, it was Max whose hackles raised in a way that was "primal," "instinctive," from the very first moment he met her, in the Evans' kitchen. Look at the look on his face in that moment, and you see a look you've never even imagined on his face before; it is closed, guarded - - she is anathema. He could hardly control it in her first episodes, except when *she* was controlling it, by forcing images into his mind.

Max is kind, compassionate, courteous - - it's not like him to react that way; and yet even into Ep2:2, when he sees her on the park bench, he still has to force himself to be with her - - you can see him deliberately quelling distaste in an attempt to live up to his own nature and take compassion on her.

On the porch, when she touches his face, there's a long pause, while he controls himself and represses the urge to push the hand away; and it's a tribute to his nature that his courtesy and compassion run so deep (it's one of the most beautiful moments in the season so far! What a *lot* a real actor can do with a single line!).

So if Max was programmed to recognize the galaxy symbol without being taught; to feel familiarity for the symbols in the cave; to "just know" how to do so many things; why does he need Maalox every time he runs into Tess? Maybe he "just knows."

(And why did the writing in "The Book" seem so unfamiliar to the podsters, so that even now they know nothing more about the book than 4 months ago?)

I like the idea someone else proposed above - - what if Tess *is* the original betrayer, is working with the skins even now to lure Iz out there and confuse and trick her into helping the skins?

CW has been in cahoots with the real Pierce; and I got the distinct feeling as she was introduced to Max, and later as she watched Michael being arrested, that her bug-eyed stare was indicative that she knew bloody well what they looked like and who they were - - she had been briefed either by a "Book" like the podsters have, or just by Pierce. (She seems to have a copy of P's files.)

If she was recording Liz on her phone, they were probably dense enough to discuss searching her office later on about the Cadmium Bones; and she would definitely have *no* record of a call from Pierce. (And who more likely to have a setup like that on their phone than a politician?)

1)About CW having to have grown up with humans learning about human politics well she is obviously not fifty years old so she must have had more than one body. Does this mean she switches bodys all the time? Could have the first CW we meet have been the real one. After all she was very intrested in exposing alien life on earth. If she was a skin would she want to expose that? Then when was she taken over by a skin? And who was the skin before she was CW? And she seemed concerned about finding the granolith because she was about to turn fifty, to me this implies that this would be her way back to her home planet where she could continue to live.

2)I can not figure out just who Valandra is Tess or Iz? The story CW told seemed to point to Tess's character. And keeping in charater she would have given up Iz as the taitor to prtect herself and it explains why Tess never said anything before about Iz being a traitor if she remembers the past.

3) All in all the realtionships between the destined couples aren't going so good, so where they all that peachy back onthe home planet? Tess was obviously in love with Max but was he in love with someone else and therefore betray them for revenge of a lover scorned? And Michael and Iz don't seem to get along in that way. It seems that michael had someone else. Courtney? Or how about the thought of Courtney and Maria being sisters. So was michael in love with a maria like character and courntey being the little sister have a little jelous rilvelry?

3)the story courtney told seemed to be one that actually happened. So did it happen on earth or was it a memmory of times before on their home planet? If you follow my first theory then courtney could have been involved with CW stepson but then the skin took over and decided to get rid of her and replaced her with another skin? Or was it a story about Michael and her on their home planet or michael and someone else or two other people completely.

Anyways just love to read this thread but don't get to watch the show till later cause I live in Canada so I always have to read it so much later on.
Jenny

As for Tess' injury in wreck, it too could be faked. Tess would have ability to heal minor health problems on her self. Why not be able to change the molecular structure on her face and create minor surface injuries? Images Is saw could still be projections of Tessovision. The physical evidence, two sets of tire tracks could be done by CW and Grant.

Can anyone tell me the purpose of the character of Brody? He just takes up valuble air time.

I think you've got it backwards. Liz got this "unbelievable" ( ! ) opportunity to work for her. Real Pierce told CW something to the effect that his prime suspect had a girlfriend, and she had human blood. (Remember, he had the dress tested!) CW didn't want to approach the suspected podsters directly, so she nibbles around the edges by employing Max's girlfriend. She didn't need to "have her suspicions aroused" - she already suspected! She was taping Liz's phone conversations right along, remember. I think the interrogation about Max would have happened by and by anyway; the Pierce-gone thing was just a convenient opening for her.

Remys, I see your point about ahborring killing. I still think that in this situation, self-defense requires it. Great leaders hate unnecessary killing, but most of the greatest leaders have shown their greatness in time of war. (Lincoln and FDR, for example.) Brody appeared to be- and may still be- a Skin. One of those who killed Nacedo, the protector of the Podsters. I don't think any other solutions offer themselves. Negotiate? With whom? The Skins are concealing themselves. The Podsters are staying low. If the Skins want a peaceful solution all they have to do is leave them alone and the fighting will end.
We agree on Isabel killing Whitaker. Pure self-defence. I'm not surprised she worries about it afterwards- I would be upset if I ever had to kill someone, regardless of the circumnstances.

Despite disagreeing with Remys, he does make a strong point. How the Podsters resolve this dilemma- how far can they go to survive without becoming as bad as their enemies- is an essential element of this season. It is a test I suspect they may have failed in their previous lives, but I'm not sure in what way. Perhaps Max was too ruthless, Isabel not enough so (that could explain the betrayal), which would explain their desires to act differently in this life.

JC, thanks for your agreement on Nacedo's role. I agree with your speculation about the other Aliens, the ones who didn't survive. It seems like the crash may have messed up whatever plans were made pretty badly.

I think Isabel was too quick to accept CW's story. I wonder if CW was able to do something like a weaker version of Tess' mindwarp? That would also explain the Sheriff tolerating her interference with his investigation, her ability to exercise some control over the Special Unit, and something else which just fled my mind.

Brody is important for the reaction of the Podsters. How ruthless do they have to be to defend themselves? That is very important. This time they trusted Max's instincts and didn't kill a possibly innocent man. They may learn that Isabel was right, and they have allowed a great threat to remain. If he is a Skin (and Milton's sudden disappearance has never been explained), then he may play an important role later. If not, I don't think his prescence was a waste. The discussion's we have had relating to him are proof enough of that.

Despite disagreeing with Remys, he does make a strong point.

***Hehehehehe This HE is a SHE..........Oh, yeh, Bumpity, Bump, Bump while I'm here...

Steff/RemyS

"If Brody is who he claims to be, and not a Skin (or other evil alien type) he could become a great ally... he already is greatful to the aliens for curing his cancer, so he would probably want to help them in return if it was the Podster's people who did help him."

If it was the podsters' people who helped him, why weren't they trying to find and help the podsters too. it seems they could have used their time and efforts more productively (no offence intended to Brody). One possible reason for Brody being healed is to use him to find the the podsters. Perhaps he is like a sleeper agent that is activated when needed. Maybe he will be gently reminded that he owes them and will be pressed into service. There may be whole armies of humans "recruited" in the same manner, but there is one problem. Which side healed him, and what will they tell him to do?

Despite disagreeing with Remys, he does make a strong point.

***Hehehehehe This HE is a SHE..........Oh, yeh, Bumpity, Bump, Bump while I'm here...

Steff/RemyS[/B]

Oops. Sorry about that. Also, I'm not even sure now what I meant by that. I think I meant Remys was disagreeing with me or something like that. (Note to self: If you are rushing to get to work, don't post!) I think the rest of my post makes some sense.

I think that while the Podsters probably have stronger potential abilities than most of the Skins (what better way to become royalty?) they are untrained. Unlike the Skins, they haven't been taught how to find other Aliens. I find it strange that wasn't one of the first things Nacedo would have taught Tess, though.

I like the various theories regarding Brody. While I lean towards him being a Skin, there's been no conclusive proof and the idea that he is an abductee who will play a major role sometime in the future makes sense too.

PRS

Good point! Mother Thread Posters to Spaceship LSS: Come in for comment, please!

DawnTreasure, I agree that Brody "picking up" the alien paperweight is either a cosmic occurrance or plotted event. Since I don't think the writers have anything too spiritual planned in the way of OVERT references to the power of Good over Evil (inspite of what I just quoted above), I think it more likely that Brody was 'selected' like Palomino suggests (see quote below). And Lorrillei, even though Brody may have just been a necessary casting switch like you explained, I still think they will use this change to feed the story line (unlike the days of Bonanza and Bewitched when a new actor would just continue an established role).
By Palomino:..."Perhaps he is like a sleeper agent that is activated when needed. Maybe he will be gently reminded that he owes them and will be pressed into service. There may be whole armies of humans "recruited" in the same manner, but there is one problem. Which side healed him, and what will they tell him to do?..."

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The Skins had an advantage, Pierce. Whether or not he was a skin himself, he was sleeping with a Skin and could have pillow-talked a great deal of info to a congresswoman who seemed as eager to hunt aliens as he was. The congresswoman was shredding documents of Pierce's. How many pre-Nasedo documents did she have, and how much further have they gone? As for hiring Liz, it was not so much to find out who the podsters were, but to keep tabs on the whole alien/human gang. Obviously they would know by now that Liz was the one who was healed, and that Max loves her (Pierce knew in WR). Even if they broke up, a good way to have info on the "Alien Club" is to listen in one of them, and keep tabs on her. If she is working all the time, they have to call her.

The podsters have twice detected something near by (Michael at the grave digging, and Max in the hallway) that made them uneasy (unnerved Max). This would indicate they can sense the enemy, but both of them have been seeing Courtney almost daily, Max met CW on the street, Cw was at Isabel's party with all but Tess there. Is there a different kind, phase, mode, or sex of Skin they can detect, or is it the Skins deliberately letting them feel their presence?

The Skins had an advantage, Pierce. Whether or not he was a skin himself, he was sleeping with a Skin and could have pillow-talked a great deal of info to a congresswoman who seemed as eager to hunt aliens as he was. The congresswoman was shredding documents of Pierce's. How many pre-Nasedo documents did she have, and how much further have they gone? As for hiring Liz, it was not so much to find out who the podsters were, but to keep tabs on the whole alien/human gang. Obviously they would know by now that Liz was the one who was healed, and that Max loves her (Pierce knew in WR). Even if they broke up, a good way to have info on the "Alien Club" is to listen in one of them, and keep tabs on her. If she is working all the time, they have to call her.

The podsters have twice detected something near by (Michael at the grave digging, and Max in the hallway) that made them uneasy (unnerved Max). This would indicate they can sense the enemy, but both of them have been seeing Courtney almost daily, Max met CW on the street, Cw was at Isabel's party with all but Tess there. Is there a different kind, phase, mode, or sex of Skin they can detect, or is it the Skins deliberately letting them feel their presence? [/B]

Palomino Thanks for pointing out the obvious. It was completely missed my me. As far as deteching the enemy alien, what if it is a different species involved instead of the skins??? Not noticing Courtney or CW is a big clue to this.