1. FLASHES. We asked before in the first eppy of this season if Max knew that Liz received flashes when they kissed. Tonight--Max says "I felt that" -- does that mean that Max knows that Liz received those flashes? And assuming that Kyle was kidding about seeing Max naked--why didn't Kyle receive flashes when Max healed him?

2. ON LOTION AND DRY SKIN. You know, I' not sure whether that was meant to be humorous or to be taken seriously. If seriously, then I think we needed better special effects folks. I mean I do have dry sking and know what it looks like--and believe be Courtney doesn't look like she has it! It strains the imagination to think that the alien dilemma could be solve or at least put off, by using lotion. What is your option on this.

3. TIME TRAVEL. Okay--they handled the two Maxes in one location fairly well. It is a well established motif in time travel stories that one time point often cannot sustain the same person without difficulties.

What they have opened up is the notion of alternate realities and parallel Roswells. I don't think that Roswell is sophisticated (SF wise) enough to go there...but it might please some to know that in other writers' hands, we could have a variety of time streams in which any number of variant scenarios get played out between Liz/Max/Tess.

What did you think of the actual time travel apparatus? I think they left it purposefully vague. The Granolith we are told has power. Just why a powerful object would allow time travel, however, is not clear. From what we see in the future, time travel is not its original function--but it can be used for it. Did the granolith as time machine seem plausible to you?

BTW--didn't it seem like Terminator (minus the nakedness) when Future Max arrived in the present?

4. ON DESTINY AND THE FUTURE. In this eppy we learn the future is not etched in stone. It can be changed. As individuals we make our own destinies. Normally this would be a great thing. Can you tell I'm not shouting for joy?

5. THE SPECIAL GIFTED ALIEN UNIT. Our four podsters are essential to each other and formed a multi-gifted fighting unit. This is why they have different powers (or so we are told). And four is stronger than three--especially when that fourth is Tess.

Well we had relationships and SF in this one folks...what did you think of it?

LSS

P.S. Okay...this is OT on this thread but I am going to say it anyway, if watching Liz and Kyle in bed was hard for Future Max, that was nothing compared to how it made me feel when Present Max saw them. Damn...even my own life isn't as screwed up as these relationships are becoming.

One pick : Max from 2014 said that he couldn't tell Liz too much. In "Back to the Future" this was understandable, because many future events needed to happen, so they couldn't over-tamper and destroy things. Future Max was here to drastically change the future - after all the whole world was being detroyed. Why not tell Liz, "The Skins will ambush Michael on this date if he goes there. Skins will surprise-invade on this date. Here is the name of someone who will assassinate one of Max's generals. This is a list of people you can trust", etc. When the world is at stake, try more than one thing.

Loop holes : If Tess leaving Roswell (it seemed in the very near future) was the event that started the ball rolling towards disaster, then Tess staying even a short while longer could change the future. If she is present for even one little confrontation, it may swing things the right way.
1. Example: Tess is in Roswell just days later than she would have been otherwise. She helps when they fight off some Skins in a minor scurmish. She kills or gets one demoted that would have been responsible for winning a decisive battle, therefore changing the outcome of the future battle. Since future Max disappeared, his past had been changed enough, but goodness knows what it is or if it's any better.
2. What if Tess feels better from Max being nicer to her and accepting her as one of the podsters. Maybe she would stay even if there was no romantic spark, just friendship. She might even turn nice enough to give Max back to Liz voluntarily.
3. If Max is distrustful of Liz, angry at Kyle, suicidal(no way), or just in a different place at a different time because of this last hurtful experience, the future is already different.
4. Liz and Max can actually get back together sometime and have a different outcome than future Max did, but I think Liz will be very wary of doing this, for fear of undoing what she did.

Previous theories down the drain? The one about Tess being a false bride comes to mind. We know from the opener that this Max was not an SSer, Skin, etc. He was real, and he said that Tess was important as part of the podsters' unit - that she had been needed. He did not say she was a traitor. But what if he were lying about events? There was no discussion between Future Max and Future Liz about what exactly he had to try. What if he had make sure Tess was thrown a bone so she wouldn't turn against them and give info to the Skins? How could he expect Liz to push Max towards a traitor that might have deliberately had a direct hand in the distruction of earth? It would be much easier to withhold info that might make it even harder for her to do what she must do. Tess just leaving because she was hurt by Max's lack of attention, and the team never recovering, was pretty tame. Unfortunately, we will never know, because that timeline and its one visitor no longer exist.

The point is : Since the event(s) that caused the end of the world have been changed this far back, it is like a comet being deflected a billion miles away instead of a million miles away. The course is way off, and anything goes. M&M lovers have gone through their 48 hours and may also get a new course change, as well as Stargazers.

BTW - GO ALEX! What a great guy!

I have to admit, I was very nervous about this episode. After spending the summer reading and writing about the plot holes in Roswell, I was very SCARED about how the writers would handle this rather tricky and advanced plot; timetravel. I am rather pleased with the result.

Palomino: I agree. Go Alex!

My thoughts on The End of the Word:
Best episode I've seen this season

I admit. The spoilers were to attractive and as Reggie says, I came prepared for heartache. But aside from the Dreamer hurt, there were many things of a SciFi nature to be excited over.

Time Travel
I am glad to see that the traditional logic was applied. Namely, the recognition of paradox. The time traveler should never be able to encounter themselves while going back to the past or going forward to the future. By changing one event, you establish a million different directions left in limbo. The new timeline gradually falls over the old timeline, but that is no guarantee that the new timeline is any better than the old timeline. It's not either this will happen or that will happen. The series of events that Future Max had memories of all disappear and is replaced with what? Our decision making process is not rooted in logic. It's rooted in our interal passions, doing what makes sense at the time. If you change and manipulate the dymanics of one situation, you are playing around with the dymanics of all the other situations forward. Paradox is not a cool de ja vue. Paradox can be deadly in the science fiction world. Particularly for the time travel: (Oh Liz gets extra kudos for stating that time travel if an impossiblity.)

I am sure Future Max knows that there is great risk with going back and changing events. He is willing to sacrafice his life with Liz to do it. Present Liz goes along with the plan, under Future Max's urging. But she must sacrafice too. Whose sacrifice is greater? And why are all save the world plans filled with self denial and self sacrafice? I might ask you what extent of your life you are willing to sacrafice, and multiply that by 1,000,000 (as Isabel would say.)

Alien Powers
So, this episode had a lot of answers to my questions about alien powers. Here's what I noted:
The podster need not touch the object while changing its molecular structure. (The roses were so sweet.)
Each podster has different gifts and they are all balanced against one another so they can defeat the enemy. I wonder to what extent the podster's gifts differ. We know from the girls that dreamwalking is an Isabel thing and MindWarps is a Tess thing. However, what is Max's and Michael's thing? Max has somesort of forcefield ability that I have not seen out of the others, (but the season is young). Michael had the handblast thing, but isn't that what Isabel did to Congresswoman Whitaker? The good news is that Future Max seemed to imply that it wasn't so much that they were paired up to mate, but to balance each other's powers out. Does that then not detract from Destiny and the Saturn book? Yippee! Maybe Mommogram and the book were faked (or insert other detracter word here.).
This is sort of a jump into theory territory. But I thought Max and Liz got independant visions. "I felt that, I know you did too." If so, is there something about Liz that makes her special? Kyle did not get visions from Max when he healed her. I am so glad that the writers answered that question, it put a damper the utter sadness of the situation. I really think the difference is Max lets Liz connect with him, and he didn't let Kyle.

Granolith
Wow, how cool was that in the beginning! So the Granolith was not designed to be a time machine, but what was it design for? Whatever it is, it would for something that required a huge amout of power. I still think that it was designed for medical purposes. It can infuse alien essenses and human dna together. The location of the Granolith in the POD CHAMBER makes it key. It was near the pods. Perhaps providing the "programming" the podsters required, among other things. The way Future Max was molecularly absorbed into the Granolith, it sort of gave me the idea that it could be a giant blender of sorts. Question to think about, was it he Granolith that pulled Future Max into the conical shaped part, or did Future Max materialize into it by his will?

Romeo & Juliet
It's not very scifi, but I have to say that the writers are deliberately telling us that the Max & Liz story is not a tragedy waiting to happen! What a relief! And when future Max says, "We follow our own destinies." It cemented hope for the starcrossed lovers. What show this will be if Max and Liz can fall in love with each other all over again!

As to the lotion, I thought that was comical and meant to be so. The only troubling thing was that, with Liz working with Whittaker for so long, wouldn't see have noticed an abundance of moisturizers laying about the office? I mean the desert sun in brutal but enough is enough. A little consistency problem. I think the moisterizer definately helps the skins prolong their present appearance.

As to the time travel, I thought the writers were just vague/specific enough to make the concept believable. Hey, let's not given everything away at once. Explanations as to the power of the Granolith will be forcoming. Apparently, every alien species wants one, according to Whittaker. In away, the granolith is god-like. For the skins, it will ensure their survival. It can bend and/or alter time. It is certainly more than a power source. There is definately something mystical and all consuming about it.

I liked FM's comments on destiny. It can be made and reshape rather than a static concept. The fact that Max and Liz don't end up the way FM remembers doesn't mean that they won't end up together. The importance of Tess to the alien mythology was apparently ignored by the other 3 in a previous existence. Now, with Max more aware of Tess' pain, perhaps they can reach a deeper understanding which will bond the Royal 4. Hey, I don't think Max and Tess belong together. I view Max's last scene with Tess as Max growing and understanding Tess' pain when he rejected her. Again, a bond not a relationship. Perhaps, the reason why the EOTW was upon FM and FL was that Tess had left and only the Royal 4 can harness the awesome power of the Granolith. Enough from me, let's here what everyone else thinks. Peace! Elizabeth

This would explain what the granolith was doing in the Pod Chamber. I think the Pod Chamber is meant to be some sort of base of operations. I wonder if there are any other gadgets in there?

Someone is going to ask, "Why didn't Max use it to escape?" Where to? His original (Twilo) homeword is overrun and in enemy hands. His only hope is to go to the past, and change it.

Of course, until someone builds a time machine and uses it, we won't know if one can go back in time and change what will be the future. Still, EOTW does conform to the customary way that we think such things would work.

1. Flashes. I was under the impression that Liz did not get flashes from Max when he healed her. I thought she didn't get them till he reversed the connection when he came to see her the next night at the Crashdown.

2. Dry skin and it's cure. Maybe the cream simply helps ease the itching. I live above the Arctic Circle. It is, by definition, a desert and, believe me, I use a lot of skin cream to control the itching.

3. The granolith as time machine. I was ready to accept that since it was kept rather simple, or as you said "vague". I'm glad that it required some modification though since I wouldn't want to see it used regularly as such. Liz is the only one who actually knows this can happen.

4. Destiny, etched in sand? Like you I have much joy that this was mentioned, thus making it important. I liked what Max said and how he said it.

5. Four is stronger than three. I can see how this could be true, but it goes against my hope that Tess did not truly belong with the others. I am looking at this as a fighting unit though rather than a sexual partnership. Nothing says they have to mate in order to work together...I hope!

Non-Sci Fi comment:
This episode, although painful beyond the telling of it, was wonderful. I am always amazed at Liz's strength and courage to do what she thinks is the best for Max and the group. Watching Max, innocent to all that has happened, broke my heart. Jason and Shiri are simply magic when they are together on screen, and if Jason doesn't become the next Harrison Ford, then something is very wrong in the world.

FM is speaking from his own experiences I believe. That does not mean that FM knows all! Quite the contrary. Perhaps FM and FL believe that Tess is the key but indeed she just needs to stick around long enough for the gang to realize she is evil. Perhaps she needs to stick around enough to be given a chance for redemption and realization that she wants real love, not appointed, so called love! Just because FM thinks that Tess is the key does not mean that she is.

Also I agree that the future is now free and clear. It is all up for grabs. Anything can happen and I believe in Max and Liz! They will prevail. TPTB would not put this much effort, this much great, heart wrenching writing into a story if it wasen't the heart of it!

You know I'm passionate about this ep to see me posting on this thread. I usually just lurk!

More important side note: What was that thing Future Max used to activate the Granolith? How supermanish of him! Also, why wasn't Liz pulled into the Granolith thing too?

If the alien podster powers need balancing against each other to conqueer the EA, then that raises more speculation against Harding/Nasedo as a good or bad alien. Also, I said a long long time ago about Michael's inability to use powers was due to the fact of his lack of balance. (Who remembers that?)

I've been checking this thread when it's 6 pages long and I don't have time to read and absorb everything. (But I have posted here, long ago it seems now.) So this week I'll get in early.

As for #1, I think Max said he could feel or tell that Liz saw the visions also. They seemed to be joint or mutual this time. I'll have to rewatch to get the exact words Max said. But it kind of caught my attention because it finally clarifies who sees what.

It occurs to me that the visions last year are hard to attribute to one person or another sometimes. Unfortunately, as Palomino points out, there are clear cases when only one side sees visions.

For the healing, maybe Liz and Kyle were functioning at a low brain level (unconscious, or nearly so), and so couldn't receive visions. But SH also had one-sided visions, without explanation.

As for #2, the skin lotion is a bit hokey. But it may help extend the usability of the "skins" enough to be worthwhile. I didn't think it was a great plot device, but I doubt I'll lose sleep over it.

As for Liz making her own destiny, I agree with Palomino, that we can't tell when the key event(s) will have occured, and Tess can be dispensed with. Of course, if Tess is happy to stay even if Max is with Liz, that solves the problem. Future Max said they needed to work as a group, not that he has to marry Tess.

Tess was complaining about how everyone had treated her. Maybe she was griping about the smaller things and hiding the big problem. But she seemed sincere when she said she was tired of being hated and isolated. Which suggests that if she gets the feeling she's just being used, and still isn't really accepted, then the problem may recur anyway. This Future Max disappeared - will another one be calling later?

Finally, the granilith as some high tech alchemist's stone is too easy. I hope they don't turn it into some kind of magic dream machine that grants every wish. Unless they give us a very good explanation for it.

Why did Michael blow up his TV? Was he trying to injure Courtney as she left? Why didn't he use his powers to lock the apartment door, or throw the TV at her? Was there some other purpose to his actions?

Yes, I agree that there is more than 1 way that future Max could have altered the past -- by just being nicer to Tess in a friendly fashion, or by forewarning Michael and Isabel, (or even forewarning Tess directly). But it seems to me that he got the idea of targeting Liz directly from future Liz herself. Didn't it seem to you that future Liz was the one doing the convincing at the beginning?

OK, well, I'm tired, so I'm going to stop now.

I'm risking a double post here ... apologies in advance if that's what happens...

The 4 as essential subtext: we've seen it before. Wasn't that a big point of Surprise? When Isabel loved the wrong person, when she wasn't part of the four, they all died. The FOUR must stay together, even if they don't necessarily mate. There was a collective fit when Michael tried to leave Roswell too.

I think this was an important point--the balance they provide each other. We tend to concentrate on the first three because, frankly, we're programmed to. Now we've all ('all of America' as Maria so hysterically put it) been shaken in our assumptions there. We didn't want Tess and Max together, but have we really thought about what it might mean if they weren't? But Max and LIZ being together is NOT the problem--it's that the others never gave Tess a place at the table. That's (possibly) been changed now, so the future can proceed apace, with one important element included: her presence/gifts in the upcoming battles.

tanchel

Well, shucks, Qfanny. I should have seen the next episode by Sat. eve. If you're really that worried, let me know and I'll tell you if it's worth staying unspoiled for.
And BTW, did you find the spoilers for this episode accurate, or misleading?

Where's Iz?

why did FM say "i don't trust tess I trust you (Liz). I have faith in YOU." ?

I don’t think the power of the granolith will be defined. As JENLEV suggested on the Signs& Symbols thread, it may have many functions. I think that it’s existence and function will be treated similar to the machinery of the Krell (recall the movie, ‘Forbidden Planet’). The machinery was found and the builders had destroyed themselves so long prior that they exited only in myth. The machinery may ‘attune’ itself in some way with the will of the user(s). An organic learning process. Perhaps only those with a certain level of inherent mental power can tap into the force/will/power of the granolith. I belive we had a hint of that when Max moved close to the granolith at the beginning of Summer of 42. He had a definite reaction to it.

The granolith is there because it has ‘always’ been there. It may be a (time-space) nexus point. It probably exists in many quantum realities/ dimensions /parallel universes at once. That would, to me, be a scifi explanation of the granolith. I tend to side with LSS that the writers may not be able to handle the time travel element. By the time I get this up I’m sure someone else will have noted Stephen Hawking’s picture was on the board hanging between Future!Max and Liz in her room.

I loved this episode. RightCross!Alex. Yeah! I agree with those who found this to be the best ep of the season to date. I also agree with Palomino that this episode was, in so many, ways, like early first season Roswell with the humor in the midst of pathos. I was laughing so hard at some of the lines while at the same time tears were welling in my eyes. I loved it. It started good and, incredibly, just kept getting better and better. What a treat.

I have had this feeling that we have been travelling a different timeline (or dream? delusion?) since the end of Destiny, even if it is just the pumped-up Scifi!Roswell or these wonderful actors tinkering with their. I’ve had the incredulous feeling since we saw Piercedo testifying before the ‘House’ with that inflatable green alien doll on the podium. Something unreal and dreamlike going on. Speaking of new crop, anyone else starting to believe the plant references, motifs ?



Rosta~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~

why did FM say "i don't trust tess I trust you (Liz). I have faith in YOU." ?

Good Question--Maybe Future Max knew something that we have yet to find out? Of course, since everything is changed, what he knew about Tess might now be changed as well.

I think this was an important point--the balance they provide each other. We tend to concentrate on the first three because, frankly, we're programmed to. Now we've all ('all of America' as Maria so hysterically put it) been shaken in our assumptions there. We didn't want Tess and Max together, but have we really thought about what it might mean if they weren't? But Max and LIZ being together is NOT the problem--it's that the others never gave Tess a place at the table. That's (possibly) been changed now, so the future can proceed apace, with one important element included: her presence/gifts in the upcoming battles.

I agree. I've seen a lot of Dreamers crying and complaining about Tess in the park bench scene (don't get me wrong, I'm crying along with you guys, only not for that reason), but I saw that scene as closure. It was the point of The End of the World for Max and Tess to have this meeting.

We actually had character development in this episode!! A few key things happened as far as relationships go:

I think an understanding was reached between Tess and Liz. They aren't going to be best friends, but Tess saw how much Liz loves Max... Liz was willing to hand him over to the "bitch" she admitted to hating. At the same time, Liz saw Tess' confusion and frustration with the situation and actually heard firsthand that Tess might not want Max. So, Tess is accepted by Liz.

During the scene in the CW office, Max learned that Liz actually turned to Tess for help. In the park bench scene, he felt Tess' compassion. He does not want her to leave Roswell, but he doesn't want her as a mate either. I'm editing this to add some proof... the lyrics to I Shall Believe from this part: "Open the door... and show me your face tonight." I felt like things just slid into place here... Tess was accepted by Max.

Isabel and Michael will follow in Max's footsteps. Maria and Alex will follow Liz's. They are free to create their own destinies, and I believe it will turn out better than the first time around for Max and Liz, as soon as he finds out the truth. And I don't think he will be angry with Kyle or Liz when he finds out... at least I hope not.

MMI&T can move on as four now... I think we are supposed to accept her also. I have to admit that I felt for her at the end. It was heartbreaking, but this was all necessary. I can't really see them making Tess evil... it doesn't make sense. It would feel like EOTW was a total waste. Maybe her recollection of the pods hatching will be proven wrong or something... I don't know.

so, one thing i noticed about the end-

maybe it was because i was looking for it, but did anyone notice the absence of the V constellation?

i mean, it shows up from episode one in the PILOT and we see it whevener there are shots of the sky all throughout season one and during season two. so why is it gone now?

About the time travel aspect. Yeah, it's nice that they adhered to the conventions in SF about time travel, but it's also a convention that they use a little too much these days in SF TV or movies. Or is it just a cute device to justify breaking up Liz and Max? It seems like they threw it in out of the blue to resolve a plot dilemma and doesn't really fit with the rest of the episodes. Maybe, too, they just wanted to make the show more SF. Convenient they introduced the granolith just a few episodes earlier.

I realize there are two ways of looking at why something is used: from the inside or the outside. I'm addressing the external reasoning more than the internal logic.

Well, it's bedtime, I've got to go. Hope someone can convince me that I'm wrong.

StarWatcher (1st post!)

i think that crystal thing that fm was holding was some sort of key to activate the granolith. what i'm wondering is that only the one that holds the key will be transported back into time? why wasn't the fl sucked in as well? could she have been sucked in by accident as well?

when future max disappears in the end, what happens to that crystal key? does fl have it, but w/ the future changed, who has the crystal to activate it?

fl and pl in the same stance. we see fl looking into the sky as fm vanishes. liz is alone and she is the same in the end. alone after fm disappears and sees the shooting star... quick make a wish

the comic relief was funny.

ok... that explains that liz was the only one to see the flashes. grantedt that it's an alien thing to see the flashes (like mike seeing maria as a kid w/ a dog) hm....could liz.....? or it could be that liz and max were sharing of themselves, thus and open mind to see into each other.

just rambling

You wrote about the flashes we saw occur between Max and Liz - was Max aware? if so is this some of the 'fruit' of the process of closeness or 'cementing' that future Max discussed?

Thus are Max and Liz 'connected' in such a way that this bond will bring them back together regardless of the current developments - and was future Max aware of this and thus able to follow through knowing all would work out in the end.
AND as siderA pointed out - Max stated he trusted Liz NOT Tess...

Liz and her flashes whats the significance of those bloodly flashes...????

THANK YOU Kate6058 : Your post was a comfort to me and I appreciate all you wrote as my thinking regarding the SF of Roswell is currently clouded with the emotional upheaval I know many are experiencing @ the moment.

What is that plothole?

First off, while this episode was far better than "Surprise" or any of the episodes this season IMO, like StarWatcher said, it feels like this episode is almost a tangent and doesn't really fit in with the rest of this season's main storyline (good alien vs. bad alien).

Okay, fine. I can accept that... And, I admit, it was a a nice break from the *stuff* they were feeding us since the premiere...

BUT...

The main problem I am having, story and logic wise, is that Liz now knows the future.

And even if you can alter the future and create your own destiny, this is still going to weigh heavily on her as she knows what COULD happen if things go slightly awry with the Pod Squad.

It's like when TPTB gave Angel back the day when he became mortal and only he knew the outcome and consequences of his and Buffy's romance. Remember that episode?

Okay. Why is this a problem or plothole for Roswell?

For the simple fact, that ,IMO, I don't think -- Key word -- That as LSS and others have stated, that Roswell is sophisticated enough to even attempt to delve into the pyschology of time travel and unfortunately, the way it is set up now, given EOTW, Liz's knowledge figures HEAVILY into the rest of the show's mythology and the direction the show will progress. It's almost as if they have given us another "Destiny". Destiny II, regardless of what Max said about creating your own.

Remember, even if things don't turn out like in FM timeline, Liz's knowledge of what COULD happen (and I'm repeating myslef for a reason to make a point) is just as crucial, if not moreso than knowing the immediate future, because she is now, in essence, a watch dog or guide for the rest of them and their behaviors.

And unfortunately, I don't think the show isn't going to "waste" time on developing this aspect of Liz's psyche -- At least, it looks like they are ignoriging it in next week's episode -- When again, EVERYTHING that is going to follow EOTW will, in one way or another, directly or indirectly, be effected by Liz's "privillaged" knowledge of a possible outcome.

However, on the other hand, maybe they are smart enough and are setting it up that Liz is actually the 5th one -- Along with Tess -- Who keeps the balance of the "fighting unit" (Can you say Semper Alien? ) BECAUSE of her knowledge of the future. Maybe it is SUPPOSED to happen this way. Maybe Mankind is supposed to fall for a reason we don't know yet.

But again, I just don't think they have the time or desire to even attempt this compliated a storyline right now.

Well, that's my take on it. I look forward to others input as well.

And Reggie: I have been a fan of Time Travel via x + 186,282 mps since my 8th grade blue ribbon science fair project (when you were in diapers?). But my intellect knows what my heart won't accept: E=Mc2 means I'd vaporize before a single wrinkle smoothed away.

Speaking of wrinkled skin: LSS, maybe we just aren't using enough moisturizer? But Arctic Lurker, I'm taking a Claritin tonight for sure after this ep. :picture itching emoticon here:

OKAY NOw, on with the REAL COMMENTS:

1)FM said Liz had to make Max fall out of love with Max so Tess wouldn't leave Roswell. BUT on Liz's first attempt she INTERRUPTS Kyle and Tess starting to bond which was keeping her from leaving Roswell. Sounds wrong to me...I mean wrong as in the writers want us to notice it's wrong.

Likewise the fortune teller...although I suppose we just watched the fortunes being changed.

And the Run Lola Run clue: This was the second or third version to get it right so they could live happily ever after and not die untimely deaths.

And the other 4 out there somewhere. My latest theory on that one: There's another Max for Tess out there. But then with Kyle, who needs another Max--the bods are **at least** the same anyway.

And, as Qfanny pointed out: the balance of the Four's powers was essential--not sexual pairing.

2)The granolith's powers mirrored the magic stone (what was it called?) in the Roswell High books. Melinda Metz, are you out there? As I was saying, don't your publishers know what a mint they could make if you put the 10 YA novels together into one GA (general audience) novel?

3)Re the Alex socking Michael scene: Everyone's yelling yay Alex. And that's all good and well. But I thought not only did Michael show his changed character (since Hal) by his reaction ("you know you just risked your life...you're a real friend"), but I thought Brendan did an excellent job of conveying it.

but it seemed that at the end, tess seemed understanding in max's pain. just as long as she doesn't resort to her old self and .... it's meant to be.

How about this.... (a prediction/speculation for the Dreamers)
Now that Tess will stay around, because she may no longer feel so hated and isolated, this will give the Kyle/Tess bond a chance to mature into something, which will then free up Max and Liz. It wasn't their relationship that was dangerous per se, it was that their relationship caused Tess to leave, which weakened the strenght of the podsters. I also noticed that Liz's visit interupted what might have been the beginning of something for Kyle and Tess (yeah, I know that it's a little too soon... but after all, they live in the same house ).
I think the lotion bit was for comic relief, and also to give Michael a pointed clue. BTW... in reading through the heartbroken Candy posts, they agree that the first kisses between Mi/C were truly investigative, but the one after Alex decked Michael (my esteem for Alex just rose about 1000% ) it almost seemed as if she put a whammy on him, much like Tess did to Max. Please tell me you saw the same thing! (and I've got to say, I'm glad Maria finally gave him what for, although I hated to see her cry )

ETAmerican: How much specifically does Liz know? She knows they all die. She knows that Tess has to stay. But still, her knowing a possible future throws a monkey wrench in the machine. I don't like time travel as a plot device.

New alien powers: as has been mentioned, changing the color of roses in mid-air, without touching them. The list of powers grows and grows--where it stops, nobody knows.

Multiple functions of the Granolith: time machine, genetic recombinator, and microwave? Sorry, but too many functions spoil the plot. Even though I haven't read it, would a reference to the "42" of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' apply to the Granolith. Anybody here read that book? Let me know.

I really don't like time travel. However, at least Liz mentioned that it's impossible. I wonder if the similarities to 'Back to the Future' (Future Max mentioning that the two Maxes can't meet or else bad things could happen) and 'T2' (Future Max's entrance, Future Max's 'we choose our destiny' speech, which someone here or in the General Discussion mentioned) were intentional or unintentional? I really don't like time travel plots.

How to recognize someone's a Skin: Someone on the General Discussion thread mentioned this--if Michael could reveal Courtney while making out, how is it that Nasedo couldn't recognize the Congresswoman while they were...uh...diddling? I suppose the answer might lie in the 'Nasedo is still alive' theory.

I've rambled long enough. Good night.

And the Run Lola Run clue: This was the second or third version to get it right so they could live happily ever after and not die untimely deaths.

And the other 4 out there somewhere. My latest theory on that one: There's another Max for Tess out there. But then with Kyle, who needs another Max--the bods are **at least** the same anyway.

And, as Qfanny pointed out: the balance of the Four's powers was essential--not sexual pairing.

2)The granolith's powers mirrored the magic stone (what was it called?) in the Roswell High books. Melinda Metz, are you out there? As I was saying, don't your publishers know what a mint they could make if you put the 10 YA novels together into one GA (general audience) novel?
[/B]

Ah...a poster seemingly after my own heart!

Hiya! You're refering to the Stones of Midnight.

I agree with you on all of your points, and especially appreciate the Run, Lola, Run reference. It makes absolute sense when you take the fortune teller's words into account. The future really DID end 48 hours later, as the future Max knew it.

The constant reminders of the current path being the WRONG one (think of Liz's multiple protestations that sexual intimacy at 17 and marriage at 19 is way too young, and not right for HER, at THIS TIME IN HER LIFE), leads us to believe that perhaps now things can work their way back on track. This is not guaranteed, but it is STILL POSSIBLE, and if the final words of FM are to be believed, that new future could be even better than the one he just came from - as far as he and Liz are concerned.

The idea that Kyle and Tess were inappropriately interupted from THEIR true path is also appealing. Again, I agree with you that it was pointedly brought to our attention by the writers (although that could be wishful thinking on my part too!).

And the person that originally stated that Tess was not necessarily ROMANTICALLY meant for Max - yeah, well said. I thought that was pretty obvious, and I'm not sure why there are those on other threads who are panicked over her touching Max - as she and Max began to bond, FM began to fade - it doesn't have to mean anything more than the fact that she won't be leaving the group soon enough to cause the future, as it happened, to actually occur (or occure again?).

Um, does any of that make sense?

More thoughts keeping me awake.

This could almost be a continuation of my post of a few weeks ago about Grail/quest cycles: the quests to come into the right relationship with evil (without and within), spiritual transformation, and compassion. Indeed, the intial one (?March) is still pertinenet.

For Liz and Max, indeed for all the couples, the true quest, the quest of the heart, requires coming into the right relationship with love and matters of the heart just as it is important to come into the right relationship with the evil of the world or the forces of the universe. The quest of the heart is the path to unselfish love.

Perhaps the tragic path of Future!Max’s timeline is that he pursued a selfish, immature love.

Future!Max tells us this. Present!Max demonstrates this by his behavior. We laughed at the serenade, but Mr Parker lets us know that this Max is not quite, but very near being, a stalker.

At the least, he is obsessed. He said “I can’t stop”. He is lost. Emotionally unbalanced for reasons we know and those not yet revealed to us. We don’t know how much, or how little, psychological help Max needed to cope. He is anchoring almost all his stability on Liz, and that spells doom.

He went to Liz’s room with a condom. He had a mission. Present!Liz revealed to us her position about sex. Future!Max told us “I did not take no for an answer”. That is a very powerful admission.

Very sobering. In this timeline (which may not be the timeline we left at the end of DESTINY), this Max has exhibited behaviors, and made comments, that have been disturbing.

I think Max and Liz will be together..but in they must be in the right relationship. The quest and the path to compassion, love and spiritual union do not guarantee that they will be together a lifetime. It only suggests that each will make the journey, and embrace their personal destiny.

Future!Max went on this journey alone. In the quest cycles, paths converge, diverge, and sometimes are repeatedly taken. This is integral to the journey.

What remains to be see in Roswell…the paths yet to be taken. The quantum ripples. The four, regardless of where Tess came from, where she will go, indeed whether or not any of them arrived by the same origins, four of them- at least -had a penultimate challenge. Liz may be the 5th element , perhaps with the four, perhaps in another penultimate union with the humans and/or ?aliens. The ULTIMATE quest comes after..THAT journey is the quest of the heart. The nature of the journeys and the challenges may change, just as the time and places (writing their destiny). But the existence of them must be met (destiny written).

Rosta. ~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~

I think that's also why the Kyle/Tess thing wouldn't have worked out if they continued in the old timeline. They were not looking for a meaningful relationship, just lust.

Now that both Kyle and Tess have gotten an inside glimpse at Liz and Max's deepest feelings and what they are willing to do for each other, they might be ready for something a bit more serious between them.

quote:Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
At the least, he is obsessed. He said “I can’t stop”. He is lost. Emotionally unbalanced for reasons we know and those not yet revealed to us. We don’t know how much, or how little, psychological help Max needed to cope. He is anchoring almost all his stability on Liz, and that spells doom.

I don't know how much this means, but the choice of music in a scene always jumps out at me... and although FM pointed out specifically that "I Shall Believe" was already their song, the editors picked it for a reason. From what you said about Max being lost, ROSta, I see the lines,
"It seems like every time I try to make it right it all comes down on me... Please say honestly you won't give up on me..."
as Max reaching out and as a sign that he needs support from the group now; he can't do all of this on his own anymore. Maybe when Future Max made his decision so quickly to be with Liz, he lost some of the trust of M&I also. I see that song as Max speaking... FM knows that PM and Liz will end up together, I think. I don't know what I'm trying to say... the music in scenes is there for the audience to hear for a reason, so we should take those lyrics for all they're worth.

Some of the last lyrics we hear, when Liz is spinning/dancing by herself... "I know it's true, no one heals me like you, and you hold the key... never again will I turn away from you..."

I get way too into the music

Great post. I love this. You clearly know the language of the quest.

quote:Originally posted by shrrshrr:

perhaps now things can work their way back on track. This is not guaranteed, but it is STILL POSSIBLE, and if the final words of FM are to be believed, that new future could be even better than the one he just came from - as far as he and Liz are concerned.

I think that is so important a statement. Nothing is guaranteed. But the new future could be better. I take that to heart.

quote:
The idea that Kyle and Tess were inappropriately interupted from THEIR true path is also appealing.

Yes! Yes! Very appealing, particularly with this framework. I did not think of that path. Great point! It would be very interesting to learn they had/have a path together and what 'ripples' they may send out.

What do you think about Kyle's immersion in Buddhism and Tess' presumed (at this time) associations with the religion. We have no knowledge of what that association is, but I I thought she might be wearing an "Om" ring, shown briefly in S&B. Of course there is the statue, whatever that means. I tend to think Tess is/was a pretty 'ancient' lonely soul whatever pod she came from, if at all.

While Kyle survived an extraordinary, and life changing, experience, it did not seem a particularly natural segue for him although, in fairness, our knowledge of 'the whole' that is Kyle is limited.

quote:
And the person that originally stated that Tess was not necessarily ROMANTICALLY meant for Max - yeah, well said. I thought that was pretty obvious, and I'm not sure why there are those on other threads who are panicked over her touching Max - as she and Max began to bond, FM began to fade - it doesn't have to mean anything more than the fact that she won't be leaving the group soon enough to cause the future, as it happened, to actually occur (or occure again?).

Totally agree with you here. I also could not understand the concern.
You make great sense to me. Thank you. I enjoyed this.

Rosta~~~~ ~~~~

quote:Originally posted by Island_Momma:
Right on Rostarfehrian
Now that both Kyle and Tess have gotten an inside glimpse at Liz and Max's deepest feelings and what they are willing to do for each other, they might be ready for something a bit more serious between them.

You make a very good point. Something to consider. Kyle and Tess may have, indeed, gained some important insights from Liz and Max, respectively.

I'm probably biased by my growing appreciation of NickW, I'm sure, but my feelings (postiive) for Kyle just keep growing and growing.

But, from the beginning, I have had empathy for Tess. My feeling was that she was going to become more 'human' almost as a mirror of Max becoming more 'alien' as they make their journey. And, indeed, as a result of this humanity, Tess is most prdicted to sacrifice her life for Max and the others.

My thoughts about the touch on the park bench. I think, in that moment, somthing unselfish occurred or transpired. I'm not sure how to express it at this time (it's reeeally late).

KATE6085: Good to see you again. Where have you been hanging! I am very much with you about the music. the music was exceptional and exceptionally edited here (did anyone find it strange they did not mention the music at the end?)

Yes, there have been huge shifts and steps taken. The characters are finding their own paths. some of them, for a time, will have to walk alone or with another. Alex also took a big step. I love that guy. And I also agree with SHAPESHIFTER about Michael.
)Re the Alex socking Michael scene:

quote:SHAPESHIFTER write: Everyone's yelling yay Alex. And that's all good and well. But I thought not only did Michael show his changed character (since Hal) by his reaction ("you know you just risked your life...you're a real friend"), but I thought Brendan did an excellent job of conveying it.

Michael has been making great strides. His character is evolving.

It is intersting. Max is stuck, regressing, lost. And nearly everyone else, EVEN in the throes of chaos, perceived betrayal and rejection, and upheaval and tears, are changing. Their paths are rocky and strange, but they changing. Max needs ALL of them now. He is not moving and even may be backtracking, trying to arrive 'back' to deadly Normal.

Perhaps he glimpsed his own desperation, loneliness, sorrow (she did lose Edsedo who died in his arms). Her touch..may have been, perhaps, a 'positive', very UNSELFISH mindwarp? I hope so.

Rosta (to sleepy )

Arctic Lurker: You wouldn't perchance be the poster of the same name from the Bronze, would you? If so, long time no see. I changed my name when I jumped over here...my old name was..hmmm. How are you at guessing games? Try "Heart of Darkeness". *g* If you are my old aquaintance, good to see you.

Time Travel: Central to tonight's episode, and still very much up in the air. I noticed that the assumption seems to be that time is linear. (At least for the show's canon.) Otherwise future Max wouldn't have disappeared. He would simply have returned to his doomed Earth to comfort Liz until the end. Because, if quantum mechanics is taken to it's extreme, at the moment of a critical event, *all* possible outcomes are chosen. Regardless of their probability. So Max's trip would have been pointless. He would have simply been creating yet another worldline in which his love with Liz fizzled.

But he did come back, and he did discorporate when Max decided to turn to Tess. Therefore there will be no alternate timelines in this show's canon...not unless the writers get desparate or sloppy.

Stephen Hawking said that time warps are fundamentally impossible. He has no scientific proof for it. Only empirical proof. No tourists from the future. = No time travel possible. That being said however, for the purposes of the show, Reggie is correct. If the Granolith is an FTL transporter, then it is also a defacto time machine. Space and time are simply different axes on the same Cartesian graph. Take the equations that allow the Granolith to function as a transporter, rotate them 90 degrees in the proper direction (backed by a lot of technology beyond our kin) and viola! You're somewhen else.

"Multiple functions of the Granolith: time machine, genetic recombinator, and microwave? Sorry, but too many functions spoil the plot. Even though I haven't read it, would a reference to the "42" of 'The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy' apply to the Granolith. Anybody here read that book? Let me know."

ROTFLMAO! Why do I have this sudden vision that Granoliths are incredibly common on the alien homeworld? Every family has one. They have infommercials peddling them. The alien vegematic. *eg*

I like time travel plots myself. You should try reading James Hogan's "Thrice Upon A Time". Everytime they used the stinking machine, the world reset and the whole plot started over again. Gave me a headache.

However I think this plot is safe. If time is linear, there are no continued stories.

I know I had other thoughts as I was reading people's posts, but now I can't remember them...

OK, I remember now:
Sidera pointed out that there was no V in the sky. I, too noticed this, although I wasn't sure if that was significant, or if it's just due to the changing seasons (the constellations do rotate around with time, you know...)

About Max having faith in Liz, not Tess... Maybe Tess is necessary in the future, but that doesn't mean he has faith in the Tess of the present. Also, in a way, it was FM's last gift of love to Liz, to place such a responsibility in her lap, explaining that he loved her so much, now and in the (original) future, that their love was too powerful. Does that make sense? He knows that he is robbing her (and himself) of a future love now, so in a way he was getting one last chance to love her by going back and talking to HER, not anyone else.

OK, now I'm babbling...

Any idea why the FL didn't go back in time to warn the present-day Max? That might have worked better, to appeal to Max directly. Or can only the aliens manage time travel?

great discussion folks! about the granolith...when i wrote a while back about the granolith as a human dna/alien essense blender *and* a travel machine i was thinking of all of the examples in mythology of items that aide the hero(s) on a quest. often the items have more then one purpose and definately have uses that go beyond the expected. it seems to be part of the themes of many stories that learning the objects capacities is part of the ongoing struggle for the characters (grails, swords, magic stones etc.).

i still think of the granolith as a type of swiss army knife, and that there are more then one granolith out there; and more then one way to use them. on the signs and symbols thread there has been discussion of the potential ways for the podsters to interact with the granolith...focusing also on the possibility that the metal book is in some way a key to that process?

anyway, i'm perfectly willing to consider that the granolith has many uses, and that depending on who's using it might itself grow and change.

regarding the relationships: i think that liz can keep what she knows to herself...(maybe she might tell maria?--- kidding). anyway, it's apparent that both max and liz need to grow as individuals before they can be together as a couple. another example of the traditional hero mythology.

rosta: very good point about the quality of max's despair and dependency on liz...a reflection again of the trauma of his season one experiences?

jenlev

ps. from the beginning of this episode i gather that future max and liz didn't exactly have a lot of time to plan max's jaunt into the past...it seemed that the world was falling apart around them when they arrived in the pod chamber.

And even if you can alter the future and create your own destiny, this is still going to weigh heavily on her as she knows what COULD happen if things go slightly awry with the Pod Squad.

It's like when TPTB gave Angel back the day when he became mortal and only he knew the outcome and consequences of his and Buffy's romance. Remember that episode?

Okay. Why is this a problem or plothole for Roswell?

For the simple fact, that ,IMO, I don't think -- Key word -- That as LSS and others have stated, that Roswell is sophisticated enough to even attempt to delve into the pyschology of time travel and unfortunately, the way it is set up now, given EOTW, Liz's knowledge figures HEAVILY into the rest of the show's mythology and the direction the show will progress. It's almost as if they have given us another "Destiny". Destiny II, regardless of what Max said about creating your own.

Remember, even if things don't turn out like in FM timeline, Liz's knowledge of what COULD happen (and I'm repeating myslef for a reason to make a point) is just as crucial, if not moreso than knowing the immediate future, because she is now, in essence, a watch dog or guide for the rest of them and their behaviors.

EVERYTHING that is going to follow EOTW will, in one way or another, directly or indirectly, be effected by Liz's "privillaged" knowledge of a possible outcome.

However, on the other hand, maybe they are smart enough and are setting it up that Liz is actually the 5th one -- Along with Tess -- Who keeps the balance of the "fighting unit" (Can you say Semper Alien? ) BECAUSE of her knowledge of the future. Maybe it is SUPPOSED to happen this way. Maybe Mankind is supposed to fall for a reason we don't know yet.

Hi ET, I've been thinking about your post on my commute. I agree with you that this doesn't have to be a plothole, but could become one. I would argue, however, that the Angel episode was not one. I think Buffy's lack of knowledge made her resuming her relationship with Riley more plausible and consistent. I think Angel's knowledge was handled consistently--it contributed to his stated (and actual) inability to move on to new relationships, to his reaction to the prophecy that he could become mortal at the end of the season, and may even contribute in future episodes to his ability to understand Darla's current mortal state.

Like Angel's knowledge, Liz's knowledge certainly should change the future, but in an episode that showed some internal consistency, it alone was apparently not enough to "dissolve" FM. Further, I'm not sure this knowledge of the future changes things any more than the revelations the Podsters have found out about their past, including the book and the HoloMom message (or on Buffy and Angel, knowledge of prophecies from time to time.)

Frankly, it's all up to the writers and producers whether Liz's knowledge becomes a plothole--will they ignore it in future eps or will it color Liz's actions. I confess that after season 1 I don't the same level of confidence in Katims that I have in Whedon, but hopefully the current Katims & crew will be up to the challenge, at least with respect to things like this that happen this season. (I do agree, however, with posters on previous sci fi threads this season that they need to start tying up some threads they've left hanging this season. I don't think anyone, however, could tie up all the threads dropped last season now and still tell an interesting story.)

The time paradox / Catch 22:

Ok, Future MAx comes back to change Past Max's life thus erasing his own time line. Now he's time line was erased thus in theory he never should be able to come back to past Max's life to change his.

At the end, future Max says that Lix and current Max can now build a new future. Lix knows what one would of been like if Tess leaves, she can now help guide the new future.

All I can say is "Beware of the creative Writers!"

Clint

Where's Iz?

Reggie: I should not be reading spoilers at all, but the ones I read for this show in particular were pretty accurate.

I like the comments Kzanti Killer made (among others) that the time in Roswell is linear. Now, I have a question for you? What would happen (if it could happen) that Max and Liz choice to do something that drives Tess away. Does FM then reappear?

Maybe when Liz was asking Kyle if he got visions from Max when he healed her, she just wanted to know whether he did or not. Perhaps it would have taken too much effort for Liz to explain what she really meant, and lumped the connection up into a single experience for Kyle. That way Kyle could answer her honestly and not pry into Liz's life.

The Granolith: A power source, that uses the earth's magnetic field. It is an idea currently being studied by scientists. Now if one could fly opposite of the earth's spin and gain time (this HAS been proven to be true to a small extent ie: gaining seconds and maybe minutes) Then the theory could be that a device that uses the earth's gravity and converts it to power, could potentially cause a rift in time or maybe just transport a person back. Okay, I am not good with scientific theories and such, but I have read about the theory of time travel and how it is tied into the earth's gravity/magnetic field. Intersting huh?

~Sheri :ufo;

You have here what is called a causal time loop. this is when someone or something goes back in time in order for everything in "future" to be correct.

if any of you have read hawking, you will know that he believed that there were parallel dimensions within time, called imaginary time. Each second that passes creates a new universe, because something is different.

So, what FM has done is go back in time and basically shift "real time" (as in the reality that we experience) towards another path. Thus he ceases to be real, when up until that point he was real b/c the "real time" hadn't shift yet.

does that make any sense?

A few thoughts and comments:

Arctic Lurker: Hi there....Loved your comment about needing chocolate. I ate 10 miniature Milky Way lites (as though that makes it ok) as soon as the ep was over. Also, I agree that Jason Behr has given us nothing but Oscar calibre performances since the Pilot, and if he isn't the next Harrison Ford or Tom Hanks, there is something very wrong with the entertainment industry.

Karst: Loved your question about FMax disappearing only to reappear later at a future date. Made me think of the SS ability to "be any man you'd like him to be" and that maybe Liz could just keep checking out the FMaxes and decide which one she would want to "keep", then ignore his requests to change that future, telling him, "No, you're a keeper. Go peddle your change the future somewhere else."

Which brings me to another humorous thought about last night's ep. Sorry, but after that heartwrenching, poignant storyline, I need to inject some levity or I will be ready for the White Room.

When FMax told Liz that if she doesn't help him change the future that they will make love the night of the concert, I thought, "Oh, great.....First we have Maria Interruptus and Orb Interruptus in SH, now we have FMax Interruptus himself in this ep. Will these two ever have sex? Sorry, it just entered my head of its own accord.

Now for some serious comments.....

The Fortune Teller -- Are we supposed to take what a fortune teller says as Gospel? I don't know about the rest of you, but I am very skeptical of those kinds of things. I hope the writers didn't mean for that to be pivotal to the plot. I'd like to think it was for fun, just to pique our interest for the upcoming hour. Did they mean this to be Sci-Fi????

I am still having difficulty accepting Tess as 4th podster -- doesn't mean I don't accept it, just that I don't like it. Her comment, "They wouldn't know about the pod chamber if it wasn't for me" did not ingratiate the girl to me. Wouldn't Nacedo himself eventually have shown it to them? Methinks she places just a little bit too much importance on herself. I know....I'm biased where she is concerned, but I hate when she grandstands.

The lotion in Courtney's apartment? It probably was shown to emphasize that yes, she is a Skin, but could also have a purpose to help her maintain the "skin".

And what kind of leader will Max be if he is overwrought with a broken heart? There have been many opinions that Liz at his side, helping him to maintain his balance, would be an asset in the fight against the EAs. What will happen now? Now that he has lost the love of his life, his choice Destiny? Will he become ineffectual and less committed to the cause? Will indifference set in? The ramifications of the piercing of his soul could be life altering for all of them. To lose one's soul is to lose one's purpose????

On the other hand.........
ROStaFEHRian: Good points about the directions that these relationships were headed and how the change for the future could get them all on the right track. As much as I'm dying inside to see all the couples have meaningful and YES, sex-filled relationships, I know that at this point in their lives, it might not only be harmful, but deadly. Now that Liz knows about Max' wanting sex (well, can't blame the guy really), and about their eloping at 19, she is prepared to make better and less emotional choices. I do believe that Max/Liz will be together ultimately, but I also agree that they might not be ready for such things as marriage, family, and all the other responsibilities that would come with that. Afterall, they have worlds to save!!! Gag!! I don't like that mandate, but don't think the writers are going to change it anytime soon, so let's be realistic about the best way to deal with it. And being a young 19 year old married couple will only complicate things. They need to work together for their future and the future of the worlds without further complications. Of course, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't be happy about an occasional SH ep without anyone's INTERRUPTUS.

Steff/RemyS

I think this is going to be resolved asap... you know how things are grouped into 3-episode arcs now... I'm thinking that in either Harvest or Wipeout, Max HAS to find out what Liz's real motivation was. Max took a huge step forward in his relations with Tess, but at the same time, he lost his soul, his motivation, his everything. He has to grow as a person separate from Liz now, but the wound she put in his heart when he saw her with Kyle is too big for him to move on from, I think. He can't be completely dependent on Liz, but he can't just move on like this...

I would go a step further and say that this was partly meant as a coded message for the hardcore fans of this board to cool their jets, stop complaining and let the writers and producers take us on the fast, elaborate ride they have been creating all season. There have been too many ironic asides in nearly every episode (mostly by Maria) that mimic threads on this board for them to have been accidental. And in my opinion what we were told last night was, 'We KNOW Max and Liz belong together, but PLEASE let us take our proper time in getting there!'

When Liz told the fortune teller that Max had a destiny that didn't involve her, the woman interrupted to say, 'He chooses love. He chooses YOU.' But he mustn't choose love OVER duty. They must be reconciled. Clearly Max loves Liz. But his love had been causing him to run away from certain realities. Not about 'mating' with Tess. But about accepting her for what she is -- an alien ally but also a potential foe (as is apparently his sister) -- and accepting what is happening and what his role in it must be. The fortune teller told Liz that Max was 'very powerful.' But Max has yet to accept this or the leadership responsibility that accompanies great gifts and powers. He will have to be a wise king for Tess as well as (more than?) for Liz.

Likewise, Liz, though she walked away, has clearly been melting under Max's romantic onslaught, and who can blame her? (Not I). But she too needs to know what is at stake because she will also be part of their future. She already knows too much not to be. But both Max and Liz were out of balance, and Max in particular needed to see how very much more complicated the future would be, and how much is to be expected of him.

And clearly a lot is expected of we fans. We must wait for Max and Liz to reunite (perhaps until May sweeps -- say it isn't so!) and we must accept (and this is the most bitter pill of all) that Tess isn't an imposter or a ringer but really IS meant to be one of the Four Square, poor acting and all. Unfortunately last night put us on report that love and emotion will never take a front seat in ROSWELL as it so often did last year. It will have to serve action and plot. We've been warned.

And can I say that with the idea that Isabel had been a traitor on Twilo and with Tess turning evil in the frightful future that was averted last night, we are perhaps dealing with a very warlike and volatile and suspicious bunch of aliens all around? Dare we suspect they are by nature more Klingon than Vulcan? Would our own podsters be horrified or disgusted by what they were before? I wonder . . .

And who knew that driving a girl out of town could lead to wearing head-to-toe leather in the desert? Has Ray Bradbury heard about this?

The idea that the Granilith (can we agree on a spelling for this word? Can someone check with the producers?) may have been here for millions of years (perhaps left by Max's people centuries before?) is an intriguing one. And clearly it is meant to be a portal of sorts. Can frequent time travel episodes be far behind? And what about trips to other cities, countries and planets? It sure beats plane travel.

Does anyone else find it strange that the simple absence of Tess allows evil aliens to take over the ENTIRE planet 14 years into the future? That implies that the 4 podsters take on the enemy single-handedly. That just doesn't seem likely - if the enemy has taken over the earth, there are probably LOTS of them. How will having 3 vs. 4 "good" aliens make that much difference? FM didn't seem to be implying that Tess was so powerful as to be a sort of alien do-it-all Wonderwoman. Rather, her powers are on the same level as theirs, just complementary.

So, what do you think? Think the 4 podsters could take on the entire gang of earth-controlling evil aliens and triumph?

First, thank you so much for the warm welcome! Second, I love your name - wonderfully clever.

I'm working on a response/answer to your post and the question you posed to me, but I won't be able to get to it until this evening. I just didn't want you to think that I was ignoring it, nor that I was flash-poster!

I think the whole Buddhism/Theory of Relativity 'thing' hangs together beautifully, and I will attempt to articulate my perception of the concepts tonight (consulting now with a post-doc physicist bud of mine).

'Til then...

TMToMHguy: 42 is one of my favourite answers!

originally posted by Kzinti_Killer:
quote:(Studying Arctic Lurker intensely)
Arctic Lurker: You wouldn't perchance be the poster of the same name from the Bronze, would you? If so, long time no see. I changed my name when I jumped over here...my old name was..hmmm. How are you at guessing games? Try "Heart of Darkeness". *g* If you are my old aquaintance, good to see you.

Yep! It's me...and I do remember you from the Bronze. I've been hanging my hat around here since last Nov. I'm still mainly a lurker as you cam see from my mere 300 posts in almost a full year. I rarely get to the Bronze these days although I still edit the Buffyatric Newsletter and I keep in touch with Buffy/Angel events that way. My head is still with Buffy, and Joss the genius, but my heart deserted to Roswell the moment I saw the pilot.

originally posted by ROStaFEHRian:
quote:Perhaps the tragic path of Future!Max’s timeline is that he pursued a selfish, immature love.

As much as it pains me to say...I'm with you on this thought. I love Max and Liz more than any couple I've ever seen (B/A included) and I want them together as desperately as does Max. However, I was troubled by his admission in "Ask Not" that he didn't care about his destiny or his planet, he just cared about Liz. That is a very romantic notion, and it sounded beautiful, but it was the wrong attitude with so much at stake. It's obviously this kind of thinking that got FM's world in such a state. I hope that a way will be found for them to be together and still let him fulfill his role as leader. Liz is obviously the person who has the strength and courage to help him. She also has several extremely important bits of knowledge. First that the pod squad, with their complementary powers, must work together as a unit. Second, that Max apparently does NOT trust Tess. Third, that the granolith can be modified for time travel, and fourth, she also has the name of Serina, someone who may become important and apparently trustworthy in their lives. (Now that last may be changed because of the new future, but at least if such a person comes along, she will be on the alert.)

originally posted by plumaria
quote:Any idea why the FL didn't go back in time to warn the present-day Max? That might have worked better, to appeal to Max directly. Or can only the aliens manage time travel?

That thought definately crossed my mind. Why not Liz to Max instead of Max to Liz? The only think I can think of is that Max is so besotted that he wouldn't take heed. He has already stated that he doesn't care about his destiny or his planet...and although I think he was waxing romantic when he said it, the fact is that FL may not have been able to make him see reason.

I also wondered why they did not go back in time together, each to speak to their present day love. It would also have had the benifit to them of being together at the end. Possible reasons could be that only one could fit in the granolith or perhaps it was necessary for Liz to stay behind and lead the ill fated resistance since Max would be gone and Iz and Michael are dead.

As always, wonderful posts everyone! I am particularly enjoying some of them (so much so that I am now cutting class to read/write this... sigh.. tuition bills down the drain..)

I have a couple of thoughts on Courtney...

So, Whitaker was near the end of her 50 (yeah right!!) year existence on this planet... wouldn't you think she would shed MORE as she aged and her skin became unable to hold up in the atmosphere? And if Nasedo was "diddling" her all summer at some point don't you think some skin would have fallen off? I could believe that it wouldn't have based on the idea of the leaving of skins as some sort of calling card, and the fact that we never saw Whitaker shed. But Courtney seems to have a real shedding problem. How is it that an old crumbling Whitaker never allowed Nasedo to see her skins, but Courtney's practically comes off in Michael's hands?

Interesting suggestion that Courtney is not exactly like Whitaker, she's more of a hybrid or something.

Another thought on Courtney. I pegged Whitaker as an evil alien from day one. But I have never ever gotten an evil vibe from Courtney. She has had plenty of times alone with Michael, she could have hurt him at any time. Yet, she continues to put herself in compromising situations with him, risking her own exposure. I think perhaps she was sent there to spy on them, or she had some knowledge of the aliens (via the signal?), but I believe she truly has feelings for Michael and is NOT trying to hurt him. This goes back even more to my initial belief that the skins are not necessarily bad... I am unsure of my feelings on the skins, but my gut is telling me that Courtney is an ok chick...

Plus, I like LOVE her....

--KATE

PS, anyone else immediately think that MICHAEL was Vilandra???

Gee, I RARELY post on FF let alone on this thread and hope I'm on the right one for this discussion. Two disclaimers: I've not had a chance to read all of the posts here so I may be repeating and I won't get to actually see the ep until Saturday--Bad, BAD city that I live in.

Having said that, there are 2 points I wanted to make about the FM/Tess/Liz thing...

1. I think it was Elliott that made the point that Max has been running away from his responsibilities because of his love for Liz. To me this issue and the accepting Tess issue (which I'll get to) are the 2 things that really needed to happen with Max.

First off, since the beginning of this season Max's montra seems to be "If only I can squash this problem, I can get my life back. Things can go back to normal. I am not a king. I am not a leader." That has been his central theme. Don't rock the boat. Do everything in your power to keep things as normal as possible. It's almost as if he's relating his love for Liz with the 'normalcy' of his life before Tess blew into town. By not completely accepting Tess, he is pushing away his responsibilities as an alien leader. He will need to accept many others like him/them if he is to be 'king'. If he can't accept Tess, a supposed podster like himself, how will he be able to accept others?

It's as if accepting Tess completely (i.e. including her in on the 'planning sessions' or the 'what do we do now' conversations) in Max's mind alters his 'normal'. It makes him more 'alien' in a way. I really think he's been trying to avoid that for so long.

Max HAS to accept that part of himself. As the hybrid he is, he cannot live without either side of himself...his alien or his human side. Liz helps him maintain his 'humanness', I believe. It is in that way that I think he will remain 'balanced' and will be a great leader. She's his heart and soul and inspiration. Both of which he'll need to rule/fight effectively. Tess provides his alien balance with her powers. In accepting Tess, in a way I feel he accepts himself. Not because of any great love or future possibility of mating, but simply the fact that he is who he is...an alien.

I probably didn't make that much sense on that part, but I really think it is important to the alien strength...not because of Tess...but because of Max. He wants so bad to just wrap himself up in Liz and their love--their humanness--and forget that he has this planet to save...but he can't do that. By accepting Tess I think he'll better be able to accept his alien role.

My other point...
2. Just because FM THINKS that accepting Tess in present day will save their planet doesn't mean he's right. OR that Tess is all of a sudden a goodie-goodie alien OR even Max's true bride. Think about it. From FM's POV, he and Liz made love--cementing their relationship--that probably gave him a little more confidence to tell Tess to take a leap off the next cliff, she splits from Roswell and 'turns evil'. Ok. So...that's FM's version. Because he doesn't know anything different.

So, we change the future. Tess doesn't leave and guess what? It's STILL very possible that she'll turn evil. Not necessarily because of something Max and/or Liz does, but because she is inherently evil. Sorry folks, but I honestly still don't trust her. There are still too many inconsistencies in her stories/actions.

I guess what I'm saying sci-fi wise is that just because FM and FL THINK Tess is the cause of their problems and that by changing their union so young, they can change Tess. That may not be so.

Anyway, sorry if it was too long or if I made no sense or put this in the wrong place!
Thanks for letting me ramble a bit!

BehrHugs,
Ashton

I'm an absolute Max and Liz supporter, a dreamer, if you will - and my feelings on the state of their relationship by the closing of EOTW have already been aptly expressed by many others on this thread. The writers and producers are determined to drag us over this torturous path as long as possible, in television tradition, as is only fitting. But I retain some faith, as Jason Katims is a dreamer himself.

The one serious failing with 'The End of the World' - it's never even remotely addressed why FM, or Liz, (or even FL if she had been the one to go) simply didn't go to Tess and relate their problem. No matter how much animosity and rejection Tess felt, if she understood the circumstances and what was potentially at stake, she would never leave the Alien Four. Despite her alienation from them, and despite whatever desperation she might have felt. Then Max and Liz would be free to pursue their relationship (as free as they were before the arrival of FM anyway) without endangering the future of Earth or weakening the power of the alien unit. This is a huge loose end, and it was a mistake of Roswell's producers to leave it unattended. Granted, I was too engaged with the emotional aspects of the show to pay it any attention initially, but it remains an issue they should have addressed in at least some small manner. Perhaps FM and FL felt that a clean break was necessary to ensure a different future....that even knowing the circumstances, Tess would be angered and hurt enough by the intensity of Max and Liz's relationship that she would attempt to leave anyway, but given the consequences I find that highly doubtful.

What was the crystal FM placed in the Granilith? I assumed the Granilith was a source of power itself, but apparently it needs an activator or catalyst of some kind.

Kzinti_Killer that was a great post on time travel. Yep, they went with linear time and I have to agree with LSS, I don't think they could cope with anything more complicated than that. I was struck by the fact that they didn't show future Max's memories changing as he changed his past. By the end of the ep. instead of saying that watching what happened was the most difficult thing that he'd seen, he should have remembered what Max felt when he stood on the balcony. Since you're dealing with linear time, PM and FM are the same person. He also shouldn't have understood Liz's request for a dance, because he should no longer remember the wedding which did not take place in his "new" past.

Sidera said
So, what FM has done is go back in time and basically shift "real time" (as in the reality that we experience) towards another path. Thus he ceases to be real, when up until that point he was real b/c the "real time" hadn't shift yet.

Sidera I like your explanation and it holds up nicely with multiple timelines. The path not followed ceases to exist in this reality, but potentially continues in other realities. But like Kzinti_Killer said the show implied that time was linear, uni-linear. So Max disappearing at the end doesn't actually fit in with a uni-linear time idea, although it works beautifully with a multi-linear time idea. FM should have changed to new future Max right in front of Liz's eyes, with new memories to boot. Way too "Matrixy" for Roswell. It would also negate his comments about destiny, because future Max's past is always set, even though PM still has to get there. I'm just not a big fan of linear time.

I tend to agree with starwatcher and ETAmerican, the whole time travel thing was a plot device to break up Max and Liz while we know that they're still in love with each other. But as Rosta, jenlev, Arctic Lurker and Elliot have all so eloquently put it, the ramifications that all of this will have on Roswell will probably be positive.

SF

To add to that response:

I assumed it was also because Liz is human - the Granolith probably only worked for the 'aliens.' So, as Max was the leader (and the others were dead), he was the one who travelled back in time.

In the scene between FutureMax and Liz right after PresentMax caught her trying to set him up with Tess...

FutureMax says "you're just making me love you more" and that the problem isn't just PresentMax, the problem is that Liz isn't "changing". Did he mean that Liz wasn't trying hard enough to push PresentMax away? If that is all he meant, what an odd way to say it? Do you think he meant something else (something more)? or am I just reading too much into this.

This puts us on report that Tess (though she may now be getting in touch with her human side) is essentially volatile and untrustworthy. And I would argue, not just because she was slighted by Max. We certainly know she has been manipulative and duplicitous in the past. This brings us to . . .

Ashton: I think you are right, and that Tess will still prove a liability to our gang in the long run. We can only hope she doesn't slip away from them to sell them out and lead some sort of rebellion. And the solution for that is simply TO KILL HER!!! Which I assume the writers will do at some point in the future when she has outlived her usefulness.

The Granolith : The Skins really wanted this bad, and in the future they obviously want to destroy Earth. I would rule out a common transporter, because why would they need it (they are already here) - especially if they are a common item. I think the Granolith is either a weapon or a defense shield of some type. Maybe without Tess or the right circumstances, the remaining podsters were not able to figure it out in time to use it, or the Granolith was cripled in some way, before it could be used properly. Maybe it was modified as a time travel machine, because it couldn't muster the power to do much else. We assume that Future Max knows everything - what if he knew less than what OUR future Max will? With Tess there for even a little longer, they might hit the right set of circumstances to use the Granolith to save the world.

The Granolith : The Skins really wanted this bad, and in the future they obviously want to destroy Earth. I would rule out a common transporter, because why would they need it (they are already here) - especially if they are a common item. I think the Granolith is either a weapon or a defense shield of some type. Maybe without Tess or the right circumstances, the remaining podsters were not able to figure it out in time to use it, or the Granolith was cripled in some way, before it could be used properly. Maybe it was modified as a time travel machine, because it couldn't muster the power to do much else. We assume that Future Max knows everything - what if he knew less than what OUR future Max will? With Tess there for even a little longer, they might hit the right set of circumstances to use the Granolith to save the world.

The Granolith : The Skins really wanted this bad, and in the future they obviously want to destroy Earth. I would rule out a common transporter, because why would they need it (they are already here) - especially if they are a common item. I think the Granolith is either a weapon or a defense shield of some type. Maybe without Tess or the right circumstances, the remaining podsters were not able to figure it out in time to use it, or the Granolith was cripled in some way, before it could be used properly. Maybe it was modified as a time travel machine, because it couldn't muster the power to do much else. We assume that Future Max knows everything - what if he knew less than what OUR future Max will? With Tess there for even a little longer, they might hit the right set of circumstances to use the Granolith to save the world.

The Granolith : The Skins really wanted this bad, and in the future they obviously want to destroy Earth. I would rule out a common transporter, because why would they need it (they are already here) - especially if they are a common item. I think the Granolith is either a weapon or a defense shield of some type. Maybe without Tess or the right circumstances, the remaining podsters were not able to figure it out in time to use it, or the Granolith was cripled in some way, before it could be used properly. Maybe it was modified as a time travel machine, because it couldn't muster the power to do much else. We assume that Future Max knows everything - what if he knew less than what OUR future Max will? With Tess there for even a little longer, they might hit the right set of circumstances to use the Granolith to save the world.

1. FLASHES. We asked before in the first eppy of this season if Max knew that Liz received flashes when they kissed. Tonight--Max says "I felt that" -- does that mean that Max knows that Liz received those flashes? And assuming that Kyle was kidding about seeing Max naked--why didn't Kyle receive flashes when Max healed him?

***Hi LSS -- After Max says, "I felt that" doesn't he say, "And I know you did too"? That would say that the intensity is so deep that he not only has the flashes, but can sense when Liz does also. As far as Kyle's not having flashes, it is either because there was never a reverse connection with him, or the theory of Liz' being more than human rings true.

BTW--didn't it seem like Terminator (minus the nakedness) when Future Max arrived in the present?

***I thought Terminator the instant Max appeared (the light, the sound effects, and the way in which he emerged into the scene all were reminiscent of that movie). I wish they had taken it a step further though, and duplicated the "nakedness" for Max. Not because it would have been necessary for authenticity....just the obsessed Behrian in me.

P.S. Okay...this is OT on this thread but I am going to say it anyway, if watching Liz and Kyle in bed was hard for Future Max, that was nothing compared to how it made me feel when Present Max saw them. Damn...even my own life isn't as screwed up as these relationships are becoming.

***I'm still torn about whose pain affected me the most -- Present Max or Future Max? Granted the look on PMax was devastating, but when FMax closed his eyes and lowered his head very slowly, my heart broke in two.

Steff/RemyS

The Granolith : The Skins really wanted this bad, and in the future they obviously want to destroy Earth. I would rule out a common transporter, because why would they need it (they are already here) - especially if they are a common item. I think the Granolith is either a weapon or a defense shield of some type. Maybe without Tess or the right circumstances, the remaining podsters were not able to figure it out in time to use it, or the Granolith was cripled in some way, before it could be used properly. Maybe it was modified as a time travel machine, because it couldn't muster the power to do much else. We assume that Future Max knows everything - what if he knew less than what OUR future Max will? With Tess there for even a little longer, they might hit the right set of circumstances to use the Granolith to save the world.

PRS

MEGA SORRIES.

Raiders of the lost Granolith
Maybe they should start filming infomercials for this amazing everything device. Sorry, but I just don't see how the granolith can enable time travel. And why not use it go back to 1947 to see what happened to the other 4 pods instead of using it to break up a relationship? As much as I like to ponder the effect of paradoxes on parallel timelines, this particular plot device does not suit the Roswell universe.

"Skin" Lotion
This was probably just a funny way for the writers to arouse Michael's suspicion. I'm surprised she wasn't using an Age-Defying Cream.*lol* It's too bad that we didn't see Whitaker or Courteney drinking water all the time because I suspect that their body is missing that component. We all know humans are mainly comprised up of water right? Maybe the "Skins" don't really have water in their physiology. This could be the reason why they turn to dust when they die, and why they require a moisturizer to hydrate their skin.

The Shape of Things to Come
In an episode of The Simpsons, Homer swatted a prehistoric fly, which resulted in a future of lizard people. Of course what happened in Roswell wasn't nearly as exaggerated but you get the gist of it. By changing one event Liz has altered the future. Does this guarantee a future of victory over the "Skins". Hardly. Heck it doesn't even guarantee what happens tomorrow. All this does is eliminate one dismal future from an infinite number of timelines. Will Liz's knowledge of the future affect the story? No, because she only knew about one outcome which doesn't even exist now.

The Fantastic Four?
So now it we are told that our pod squad is more powerful against the forces of evil when combining their powers. Are we getting into superhero territory here? I still believe the magic number isn't 4 but 5. Tess may complete the balance, but something is still missing...

The World According To Liz
I so admire the Liz character. She strikes me as being one of those people who goes through life wishing they could do something important, something meaningful. Well here it is. She single-handedly diverted a disastrous future by making the ultimate sacrifice. The sad part is nobody will ever know about it. I honestly don't think the writers will even make the effort to refer back to her time-travel paradox. If anything, they will just show the emotional strain this causes Liz. Think of it----the survival of a race rests on Max's shoulders, but the fate of the future rests on Liz. BTW, I am so glad Katims wrote this ep, because he has reasserted the importance of the flashes to the Liz character.

And since many of us see The Terminator similarities, here is a line from the movie that fits Roswell:
"The future is not set. There is no fate but what we make for ourselves."

Scooby

theoretically a device capable of producing massive amounts of energy could create a tear in space-time. the energy needed is called the Planck energy and is far beyond anything we will be able to produce within the next century. if this energy could be achieved though, it would create a tear in space-time and it should be possible to travel from one point in time to another instantly. or, from one point in space to another. this is basically the worm hole we all see in most sci-fi stuff. i believe the granolith was originally intended to travel to our aliens home planet.

someone mentioned that they thought the time travel was achieved by accellerating faster than the speed of light. I don't think relativistic effects work like that. If you travel the speed of light, time moves slower relative to the area around you that isn't traveling as fast. I don't think that time will travel so slow that it goes backwards. i don't know for sure though so if anyone here has a good knowledge of relativity feel free to prove me wrong.

i have a book that explains all this stuff better but i left it at school. if anyone wants a good explanation from a physicist i can get that book from school tomorrow. it explains this stuff a lot better.

PRS

I am posting to see if this helps my computer with the Roswell One board. I seem to be denied access to it through the normal channels.

As always, wonderful posts everyone! I am particularly enjoying some of them (so much so that I am now cutting class to read/write this... sigh.. tuition bills down the drain..)

I have a couple of thoughts on Courtney...

So, Whitaker was near the end of her 50 (yeah right!!) year existence on this planet... wouldn't you think she would shed MORE as she aged and her skin became unable to hold up in the atmosphere? And if Nasedo was "diddling" her all summer at some point don't you think some skin would have fallen off? I could believe that it wouldn't have based on the idea of the leaving of skins as some sort of calling card, and the fact that we never saw Whitaker shed. But Courtney seems to have a real shedding problem. How is it that an old crumbling Whitaker never allowed Nasedo to see her skins, but Courtney's practically comes off in Michael's hands?

Interesting suggestion that Courtney is not exactly like Whitaker, she's more of a hybrid or something.

Another thought on Courtney. I pegged Whitaker as an evil alien from day one. But I have never ever gotten an evil vibe from Courtney. She has had plenty of times alone with Michael, she could have hurt him at any time. Yet, she continues to put herself in compromising situations with him, risking her own exposure. I think perhaps she was sent there to spy on them, or she had some knowledge of the aliens (via the signal?), but I believe she truly has feelings for Michael and is NOT trying to hurt him. This goes back even more to my initial belief that the skins are not necessarily bad... I am unsure of my feelings on the skins, but my gut is telling me that Courtney is an ok chick...

Plus, I like LOVE her....

--KATE

PS, anyone else immediately think that MICHAEL was Vilandra???

Here is my theory concerning CWW, Courtney, and Michael...to begin...
*remember that Courtney told Michael that CWW had pics of her because she(Courtney) had had an affair with CWW's step-son.(Am I right about that?)

*also, Vilandra(assume Is really was Vilandra)betrayed her people for a "great love".

What if Michael was that "great love" and also the CWW's step-son. This betrayal was pivotal in causing the fall of Twilo. So, the parents, knowing this, cloned Max and Tess and Isabel and they also cloned Michael to be paired with Isabel, hoping that this would allow Is to be with her "great love" without betraying her people. Now they are all on the same side; given gifts that are only at peak performance when all four are together.(per:EOTW)

Of course, due to the circumstances of the crash, (i.e. separate lives for a few years and completely different home lives...NATURE vs. NUTURE), Is and Michael are no longer in love, as they were on Twilo. Leaving Is and Michael to pursue other love interests. (YAY! M&M)

Enter Courtney, who was in love with Michael on Twilo, but her feelings were not reciprocated. CWW wanted Is and Michael together on Twilo because the betrayal would mean victory for her side. On Twilo, Courtney tried to break up Michael and Is...thus why CWW is/was not too fond of her.

Which means that Courtney really isn't evil per se...she is just, as Maria put it, wanting in Michael's pants. But as a CG, that's all the reason I need to want her dead...Kill her now, Michael!!!!

Just one of my late night theories. Read it, ignore it, just don't laugh at it!!!!
:lookaround:

LMAO!!!! You and BehrFan beat BEHRian's unprecedented QUADRUPLE post!

No worries - FF has been acting odd most of the afternoon and evening.

The part that got me thinking was this:

Given the sci-fi conventions of time travel.. .
What if it was FM's actually going back in time that CAUSES the Skins to be able to take over the Earth... And we just didn't see that "crucial moment" that may have set in motion the future events that ultimately create FM's timeline?

I think Palamino (or someone) brought up the subject of Time Loops and this is where I am basing this assumption on.

FM's goes back to change the terrible future, but inadvertantly ends up causing it.

Hmm...

Kyle Tess

+

Michael Maria

Isabel Alex

Perhaps, for some reason, half of there essenses are stored in human bodies born to human parents. Perhaps to to confuse people trying to find them, perhaps to break up the couples. Maybe someone planted the aspects of one another that the other fell in love with into humans. Look at how they complement each other.

Max is smart and loving
yet lacks the ego to be king.

Kyle has plenty of ego to spare, calling himself "King of the Jungle gym" while Max was hiding behind the tree. He even meditates on his ego,,,, how cool is that.

Tess- Lacking in a sense of structure, and a sense of social mores.

Liz-Morality and structure in spades.

Michael-Lacking empathy with others and firm moral structure.

Alex- You guess.

Isabel-Lacking of enthusiasm, not treacherous like she is purported to be..

Maria-enthusiasm in spades, and,...while she isn't treacherous, I imagine her and Isabels essenses combined and a treacherous bitch emerges.

Tell me what you think.

SM

Are you suggesting that the only way for them to form a full fighting unit (or whatever) is to have two orgies, one of Max/Liz/Kyle/Tess and one of Michael/Maria/Alex/Isabel?? Or were you supporting slash pairings? Either way, cool idea! Lol.

--KATE

Seriously, they could just hold hands around in a circle.

SM

It's interesting that you suggest the things that the characters lack is found in their same sex counterpart. That signifies a couple of things to me...

Either, some sort of slashiness must ensue... Aka, Max needs Kyle to complete him... ::sigh::

Or, Tess and Max united is still not enough to form a strong unified front since they are lacking a number of key elements, thus it is necessary for them to also join with Liz and Kyle to form the fighting unit.. Orgy!

OR! Max can never be compatible with Tess because she is missing the key element that he needs from a mate, this key element being present in Liz, thus she is the only one suited for him (etc for all the other pairs...) I hate this one. It's so... CC!!

BTW, Sublime, I posted this at the UC thread too...

--KATE

Because Max doesn't (didn't?) trust ANYONE else. Michael is always getting slapped down by Max; he won't agree to what Isabel wants; in Destiny he said that Tess "is one of us", but we've seen the four of them doing nothing together. Max barely trusts himself! (And for good reason. Anyone recall him using superior judgement in a situation?)

I'm hoping that Max will realize now that he can trust Tess, and the others. This may be the thing that makes the current future better than the last one. {You know what I mean! }

thescoobygang: I saw that 'Homer swats a fly and changes the future' episode two nights ago. Very funny. Also, I liked your "T2" quote.

Good afternoon.

and:
I like time travel plots myself. You should try reading James Hogan's "Thrice Upon A Time". Everytime they used the stinking machine, the world reset and the whole plot started over again. Gave me a headache.

However I think this plot is safe. If time is linear, there are no continued stories.

Thanks for the mention. I had also posted a reference to Thrice Upon A Time, somewhere. In that book, three timelines are run: Boy gets girl, boy loses girl, and finally boy gets girl. With all the references to "Run, Lola, Run" it rang a bell!

Another interesting book is Dr. Robert Forward's "Indistinguishable from Magic" (paperback, Baen Books, 1995; ISBN 0-671-87686-4) (Shapeshifter: ) On page 242, he refers to exactly that point: that any FTL device is also a time machine. By the way, this is what we meant by good science fiction. We can apply real science (physics) to it, and get sensible answers.

Anyway, my take is that Liz knows what happened on the old timeline, but the new one is still in play and no one knows how it works out. Liz does know it's important to keep all four podsters together. We haven't seen her being told about The Other Four, so they're still an unknown quantity. (Well, ok, their quantity is four; but besides that... )

2nd, they stoped Tess from leaving, i feel that at the end where tess asks if she should leave, shes meaning in two sences, one should she leave Max alone now, and 2 should she leave roswell, Max ansewrs no, so she stays.

thats all for now

I don't think too much should be read into the fact that Future Max said it was Liz he trusted, not Tess. This is a positive about Liz, not a negative about Tess. After all, Liz was/is his WIFE, and he hardly got to know Tess before she supposedly left town. After twelve years of marriage, not to mention the time they had together before that, it is only natural that he would entrust the one closest to his heart with such an important task. Also, I have to believe that Future Max and Future Liz thoroughly discussed the best way to address the problem.

As sad and difficult as this episode was, I came away from it feeling quite hopeful for Max and Liz's future together. Liz succeeded in the general plan, but failed the specific task that Future Max put before her. Max did not fall out of love with Liz when he saw her with Kyle. Otherwise Future Max would have disappeared at that moment. Max's love for Liz is unconditional and no one will ever take that place in his heart, which is essentially the same same sentiment that Liz expressed to Future Max. Notice that Future Max winked out of existence when Tess put her hand on Max with what appeared to be genuine concern. At first he looked at her rather dully, not really seeing her in his grief. Then something changed in his eyes. There was a sense of recognition or realization. (Maybe I'm reading too much into facial expressions here.) I'm with those of you who think that it is his acceptance of her which is the key, not that the two of them be a couple. For the future to be changed, not only do Max and the others need to accept Tess, she needs to get beyond her own isolating attitudes. By showing genuine concern for him as a friend, without an ulterior motive (a point which I know could be argued, but bear with me) she takes a step towards allowing herself to be an equal member of the group--a true companion (and I mean that in a non-sexual way).

Which brings me to Tess herself. As Liz says, it is hard for her to admit that she needs help. But boy, does she ever! Just as Max has a hard time accepting his alien nature, Tess has a hard time accepting her human one. Her weakness is this attitude that her human body, that her human existence isn't really HER, that this life is temporary. She says as much to Max when he walks her home in Ask Not and again to Kyle in this episode. Her focus is too much on destiny, her former life and returning to that existence. Having been raised by Nasedo with certain expectations along those lines, it's not fair to expect her to be otherwise. But without accepting her human aspects as strengths and functioning as an integrated whole in the present, she can never really be trusted and accepted by the group. (To paraphrase Yoda--sorry!--all her life she has looked away...to the horizon, to the future. Never her mind on where she was, on what she was doing.) Max, as others have pointed out, is a little TOO caught up in his human desires. Again, a product of his environment. So yes, maybe the two are necessary together as friends, to balance one another out. His compassion blended with her sense of purpose would make for a formidable combination.

And where does this leave Liz? The bond between her and Max has been sorely tested, but I don't think it has been broken. I don't know if it CAN be broken. The connection between the two of them is very powerful and unique. He was drawn to her--a human and thus a potential enemy--long before he had any reason to think she might reciprocate his feelings. The initial healing was the catalyst for that which forever entwined their lives. So I really think that despite the lack of consumation, they are already a "bonded pair". I like the idea that they are still meant to be together, but perhaps just not at this time.

As far as the flashes and Kyle's lack of them, that's easy to explain. The connection Max made with Liz was emotionally charged with years of longing for her. Something happened between them which perhaps he didn't intend, but nevertheless, it happened. For good or bad, I think he poured all of himself into the healing. When Max healed Kyle, there was still some animosity between them. It was another selfless act, but in a different way. Selfless because he was giving this gift to someone who was still a potential threat. But the healing didn't have the same emotional investment that it did with Liz. Kyle feels "different" since the healing, but I think that's more of an internal process for him, rather than similar to the connection between Max and Liz.

Rachelle

Clarinetkate, I too had a momentary flash of Michael=Valandra! LOL

I'm not sure what to make of Courtney at this time. Is she really good? Hard to believe. Evil? Maybe. She's a little too agressive for my tastes. But whatever her motivations, I think that it will turn out that she is at cross-purposes with the main Skins leadership. Why else would the CW have a file with pictures of her without her knowledge? And in the preview for the next episode, it sure looks like she's destroying something of the Skins'. I'm completely unspoiled in this regard, so this is just a guess. Maybe she represents a faction of resistance against the current Skins leadership, which might not make her exactly a friend to the podsters, but may connect them with a similar purpose.

Rachelle

But I'm still not sure if everything was as it seems.

OH! I almost forgot why I was posting:
Over on the 'Max was singing' thread, moongazer graciously posted the words to the song: quote:tres dias(3 days)---
3 days without seeing you, woman, 3 days crying for your love, 3 days..I see the dawn(meaning he's had no sleep).
3 days I loved you and I was lost in your love...it's been 3 days, and I haven't heard from you..
Where, where are you, with whom do you betray me?
Where, where are you, what are you doing?
3 days, and I don't know what it is to eat....only by drinking can I console myself.
Aiii, aii...Your love will kill me
Aii, aii, aii,aii..I don't know what to do, if you deny me, my dearest, your love.And, OT, on the same thread, Lisa Bahm said it really was JB's voice.
So, does this mean we get to see Kyle and Max get drunk again? And will Max OD?

If they do drink again, I hope Kyle's dad catches them - it could be played for laughs if the sheriff catches his under-aged son getting an (under-aged?)alien king drunk. Oooo, yuk - ugly flash - with Liz unavailable, what if the only way of sobering him up was to have Kyle kiss him?

Britney

This is commentary regarding LSS's original issues:

FLASHES: I don't think Max usually feels what Liz feels when she has a flash. I think it is a "recent" development of Max's powers or a deepening of his bond with Liz. Perhaps because he isn't getting to spend as much time with her. As to Kyle not getting flashes....nobody thinks Max is "pair bonded" with Kyle. I think the flashes are part of the alien bonding process which would explain why Michael/Maria started to get flashes but because of Michael's inability to committ...didn't continue.

GRANILITH: Did anybody else have the thought that Future Max (once he was in the device) looked suspiciously like the form of the shapeshifters we saw in Summer of '47? I'm voting with the viewpoint of whomever called the Granilith the "Swiss Army Knife" for heroes! I don't think Future Liz could go where Future Max went...it just would have been redundant.

TIME TRAVEL: Hey, I don't have a problem with it. I agree this wasn't a very sophisticated use of the sci-fi conventions but on another level...it was pretty darn sophisticated about how important human relationships are to future events. I also thought the meteor passing in the starry sky (Liz looks up as Future Max disappears) was supposed to represent the death of Future Max, the death of a certain possibility. Some say that meteors or falling stars are the deaths of angels....Anyway, I think that is why we didn't see the Venus constellation.

I do think that Max has been in denial and using his love of Liz as an escape from his responsibilities. Part of being a good leader is too look out for the welfare of all your people. Hopefully, this awareness of hurt, betrayal, and feelings of loss will give Max more compassion for Tess. I do think she will turn out to be important...especially since I like to root for underdogs. I just hope Tess finds true love that doesn't involve Max!

I can't get that song out of my head..."I will believe."

Liz succeeded in the general plan, but failed the specific task that Future Max put before her. Max did not fall out of love with Liz when he saw her with Kyle. Otherwise Future Max would have disappeared at that moment.

Which brings me to Tess herself. As Liz says, it is hard for her to admit that she needs help. But boy, does she ever! Just as Max has a hard time accepting his alien nature, Tess has a hard time accepting her human one. Her weakness is this attitude that her human body, that her human existence isn't really HER, that this life is temporary. Max, as others have pointed out, is a little TOO caught up in his human desires. Again, a product of his environment. So yes, maybe the two are necessary together as friends, to balance one another out. His compassion blended with her sense of purpose would make for a formidable combination.

As far as the flashes and Kyle's lack of them, that's easy to explain. The connection Max made with Liz was emotionally charged with years of longing for her. Something happened between them which perhaps he didn't intend, but nevertheless, it happened. For good or bad, I think he poured all of himself into the healing. When Max healed Kyle, there was still some animosity between them. It was another selfless act, but in a different way. Selfless because he was giving this gift to someone who was still a potential threat. But the healing didn't have the same emotional investment that it did with Liz. Kyle feels "different" since the healing, but I think that's more of an internal process for him, rather than similar to the connection between Max and Liz.

Rachelle

Rachelle, what a great post. I really enjoyed reading it. I really have nothing to add, but everything you said makes sense to me.

Posters: I was driving to work today and it occurred to me that the fact FM knew what "when" he was quite accurately. Usually in most time travel stories the traveler spends a few moments trying to figure out when he was. But FM knew they day, time, year and minute without question.

Which led me to ask, how did FM know when he is? FM and FL didn't seem to program the Grenelyth before activiting it. This led me to think that they, FM, FMi, FI, FL, and Serena developed the plan a long time ago and the grenelyth was already programmed to go. Okay, maybe this is not a huge revelation, but it gives you an idea just how BAD FUTURE EARTH was.

When Max healed Liz, HE saw the flashes - not HER. Later, when he wanted her to understand "I'm still me", he came to the Crash Down and asked permission to reverse the connection by touching her, and he let her see into him.

Unless Max had deliberately 2-wayed the flashes during Kyle's healing (which was discussed over summer), Kyle should not have gotten any flashes - just like Liz had not gotten any flashes during HER healing by Max. Liz is special in that HE DELIBERATELY SHARED HIMSELF WITH HER, at least a day after he had healed her.

Yeah... That's it exactly it

I too was thinking that something, even if very minor, was "off" during this episode and that was it.

Because like you said, Max knew the very moment when helanded, or how else would he know that his past self was going to come and seranade Liz? Excellent observation.

And this does open a world of possiblities in that if you KNOW when you're going to arrive to the exact second... That implies PLANNING and and preparation. Of course, when Future Maxnolia (Cany anyone say Tom Cruise from Magnolia and that wig had a few too similiaries was in was in the Granolith, maybe he was able to "operate" it from there by cerebal waves or something (I'm reaching here).

Honestly, I think the reason they didn't explain why Maxnolia knew exactly where he was was for the sake of pacing and nothing more.

But still, good eye

There's a religious connotation (well, several, but one in particular) I keep thinking of from EOTW.

Attempting to rememeber my Christian Parochial school upbringing here...the Bible says Jesus Christ learned of His very important destiny at age 12, but the Bible jumps from almost this exact point until we see Christ again, a man in His early 30s who has apparently already accepted and basically made peace with His "destiny". We don't read about the (more than likely) very human aspect of coming to terms with this "destiny".... the struggle between 12 and 30.

Max learns about his "destiny" at 16/17 (?), a destiny, which for the entirety of Season 2 he's basically refused to accept (fully anyway). EOTW we see Max (presumedly in his early 30s) who has come to Liz to beg her to help him push Max2k to Tess (a man encouraging "destiny").

So between 16-yr-old (future) Max learning about his "destiny", Ros shows us EOTW, Max's breaking point (at 30?) of being forced to go back and change the past to save the future (more than likely, a decision which took MUCH struggling to come by - with Max himself as well as the incidents surrounding his *defining* decision)... Max (more or less) has accepted his "destiny" (at least most of it - if that means Max2k being with Tess, so be it).

Granted, there are factors differentiating JC from FMax. JC was sacrificed for the sins of the world. FM sacrificed himself and his world to "alter" the timeline and save it (FM's world apparently should have never been). Max's foolhardiness in choosing Liz over everything else important -initially ignoring half of himself / not dealing with it- is the "sin" (gluttony?) which led to the destruction of the world? Liz herself is, of course, an extra factor in determining Max's "destiny" (regardless of what momogram did/didn't say), also differing Max from JC. Although both with the intent on saving humanity/Earth. Now I suppose, since we're dealing with a new timeline, anything is possible (Max eventually / inevitably choosing Liz won't be a "sin" this time?).

I'm not really sure where I'm going with this speculating, but it's just something I've been thinking about non-stop since watching EOTW (as well as Liz as the Virgin Mary theories, but that's for another thread I think ).

Melodious

Have you the chapter and verse for this?

Actually, there are a lot of Christology symbolism out there. Nemo, do you want to delurk for us. (PSST! If you have any updates, now will be a good time to let maxcedo know!)

Reggie: Sorry, 500 posts. I'm orbed now. Say goodbye to the little green dude.

Palomino: I agree that Kyle did not get flashes, MAX did. I agree that Max got flashes when healing Liz, but why does Liz say she got flashes when he heeled her then. The audience did not see any flashes, but Liz says she did. This leds me to believe, either

a) Liz was lying
or
b) Liz really did get flashes and we were not privy to them
or
c) Liz considers the reverse connection part of her healing, this was the day after her shooting.

I'm confused....

My orginal theory was Nasedo was a mercenary hired to protect the pod squad for a price and that he is not the same race (or species) as the pod squad. Maybe CW offered him more for his cooperation but then when she had all she needed, killed him. Then he went to Max as final payback to CW. I mean HOW COULD HE NOT HAVE KNOWN ABOUT CW???

Yeah... That's it exactly it

I too was thinking that something, even if very minor, was "off" during this episode and that was it.

Because like you said, Max knew the very moment when helanded, or how else would he know that his past self was going to come and seranade Liz? Excellent observation.

And this does open a world of possiblities in that if you KNOW when you're going to arrive to the exact second... That implies PLANNING and and preparation. Of course, when Future Maxnolia (Cany anyone say Tom Cruise from Magnolia and that wig had a few too similiaries was in was in the Granolith, maybe he was able to "operate" it from there by cerebal waves or something (I'm reaching here).

Honestly, I think the reason they didn't explain why Maxnolia knew exactly where he was was for the sake of pacing and nothing more.

But still, good eye
Thank you ETAmerica!

I thought I really had something important, but after I typed it all out it just seemed like a big "DUH" to me. Your post made me feel better about this observation.

Define "moment"... time travel ties normal language's time references in knots. But, yes, you may be right: that entire future, Liz, leather pants, and all, might have disappeared the moment Max left. Or, it might have taken some "time" for the change to work its way out to her, 14 years in the future. If it took a day for the change to ripple out and catch up with her in "future 1", then she and that future would continue to exist until then. After that, "future 1" would never have existed; and it never got any further than that moment.

Also, when the fortune teller predicted the future, was she predicting a future that included Future Max returning to the past? (just wondering if supernatural powers of clarivoyance must adhere to the rules of science fiction) Or were her predictions wiped out by his presence?

Well...
I don't put much stock in fortunetelling, but for the sake of argument let's suppose. As Liz's future was shaping up at that moment, she would have been with Max, married him, etc. It was only the intrusion of FutureMax which seemingly changed this. If she only could read the present, and then extrapolate the future, then she might not have been able to perceive Max's return; and her reading is now void. If she really could read the future, then Max will (eventually) choose Liz. Perhaps after the war is over, he'll abdicate and return home to her.

I don't think too much should be read into the fact that Future Max said it was Liz he trusted, not Tess. This is a positive about Liz, not a negative about Tess. After all, Liz was/is his WIFE, and he hardly got to know Tess before she supposedly left town. After twelve years of marriage, not to mention the time they had together before that, it is only natural that he would entrust the one closest to his heart with such an important task. Also, I have to believe that Future Max and Future Liz thoroughly discussed the best way to address the problem.

Discussed? In both the glimpse we saw of FutureLiz and FutureMax, and the relationship between Liz and FutureMax, the Maxes we saw were helpless! Both required a Liz to do the thinking for them. I suspect that the whole "Back to the Past" plan was Liz's: only she has the brains to work out how it must be done. And Max can't trust anyone else to to the job, because he only trusts Liz. He's never trusted Michael or Isabel's judgement, has he? I agree with you; he didn't say anything about Tess. He may not have seen her for years, and hardly know how to approach her. Frankly, I think Tess was killed first. Being alone, she would have been easy pickings.

Oh, and the whole Tess & Kyle & lamp trimming thing. That wasn't about Kyle; that was about Tess rejecting her role in Destiny in the most emphatic way that presented itself, at the height of her fury with the situation.

Which led me to ask, how did FM know when he is? FM and FL didn't seem to program the Grenelyth before activiting it. This led me to think that they, FM, FMi, FI, FL, and Serena developed the plan a long time ago and the grenelyth was already programmed to go. Okay, maybe this is not a huge revelation, but it gives you an idea just how BAD FUTURE EARTH was.
Well, as I recall the dialog between FMax and FLiz, they both knew what was going to happen. I took it that they had already thought it through, as there was no ad-hoc planning done. Plus Serina had to make the necessary modification(s) to the equipment. Remember, FMax insisted that "this" next 48 hours was crucial. He had to be aiming for that moment, or why go?

BTW: an A+ to the writers, for Liz's objections to time travel. The way she talked, she could have been posting on this thread.

Remember, Qfanny is an

As posted on the spoiler board for EOTW, this was supposed to have been the closing scene.

Liz goes back to the fortuneteller Madam Vivian.
Madam Vivian-"The last time you were here, you're future was so clear...now I don't get any reading at all."
Madam Viv also goes on to tell LIZ that WE CREATE OUR OWN DESTINIES. LIZ emerges and stands outside. She is bathed in red neon lights of the word "Future" blinking in the background.
Music swells.

I agree with your insights here. I am very happy that you posted this.

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
There's a religious connotation (well, several, but one in particular) I keep thinking of from EOTW.

Jesus Christ learned of His very important destiny at age 12, but the Bible jumps from almost this exact point until we see Christ again, a man in His early 30s who has apparently already accepted and basically made peace with His "destiny". We don't read about the (more than likely) very human aspect of coming to terms with this "destiny".... the struggle between 12 and 30.

Max learns about his "destiny" at 16/17 (?), a destiny, which for the entirety of Season 2 he's basically refused to accept (fully anyway). EOTW we see Max (presumedly in his early 30s) who has come to Liz to beg her to help him push Max2k to Tess (a man encouraging "destiny").

Ros shows us EOTW, Max's breaking point (at 30?) of being forced to go back and change the past to save the future (more than likely, a decision which took MUCH struggling to come by -

Sacrificing his life for a better world, too.

quote:
Granted, there are factors differentiating JC from FMax.

There will be many differences. For the purposes of storytelling, the mythology or history really only need serve as a template. There need not be an exact retelling. This is one of the most used 'templates' which include the Grail/Holy Grail (or quest cycles) and the messianic heir, legacy/lineage ('the vine'). Think of most recent movies like THE MATRIX (Neo= The One and his 'chosen'-can't recall her name).

The Roswell story most reminds me of the Holy Blood/Holy Grail cycles and the book/movie THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST. I'll try to find a link so those who have not seen the movie or read the book can have a synopsis.

The apochryphal BOOK of PHILIP tells that Christ was indeed married and had children. And the "Lost Bride" was Mary Magdalen. While I have read with interest theories by some (EVID mainly) about the Virgin Mary analogy, my opinion is that the TEMPLATE story is Jesus and MARY MAGDALEN.

The morning and evening star (Venus) is the symbol of Jesus and MM. The lineage (bloodlines) are Davidic (Christ) and Benjamite (?via Arcadia) for MM.

Indeed, it was this very mythology that prompted the post (and drew me into Roswell)
and the theory that Liz was of a special and ancient earthly lineage. Hence, perhaps all the so-called aliens were actually of ancient lineages (vines).

In the South of France, there began (and remains) the cult of MM. The legend is that a pregnant MM, after the crucifixion, sailed to the South of France with the sangraal = royal blood. MM settled in the Languedoc. Her 'guardian' angel (against the Romans) was Michael. The heresy that followed (look up the Albegensian crusade or Cathars on your websearch)which led to appalling bloodshed in the Laguedoc is believed to be the heresy of the Holy Grail, a veil for the cycles (which evolved from many influences, ie Indian, Eastern, Persian, Arabic, etc)about the search for the lost bride, the restitution of the feminine principle.

I make no religious judgements. Again, this is about story telling and particular story templates. I have posted this story in more detail long ago, twice previously, and included a lot of the symbolism seen in Roswell to support the analogy including the Venus symbolism, Liz's 'garden', the symbolic numbers, ie the 8 and 12 numbers, the pentacle, the strawberries, the symbolic crucifixion (WR), and so on.

You have expressed an important part of the story so wonderfully and I am very pleased. And don't forget TOY HOUSE and the 6 year Christ analogy.

quote:
JC was sacrificed for the sins of the world. FM sacrificed himself and his world to "alter" the timeline and save it (FM's world apparently should have never been). Max's foolhardiness in choosing Liz over everything else important -initially ignoring half of himself / not dealing with it- is the "sin" (gluttony?) which led to the destruction of the world? Liz herself is, of course, an extra factor in determining Max's "destiny" (regardless of what momogram did/didn't say), also differing Max from JC. Although both with the intent on saving humanity/Earth. Now I suppose, since we're dealing with a new timeline, anything is possible (Max eventually / inevitably choosing Liz won't be a "sin" this time?).

Nicely stated. Again, THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST is quite similar.

quote:
I'm not really sure where I'm going with this speculating, but it's just something I've been thinking about non-stop since watching EOTW (as well as Liz as the Virgin Mary theories, but that's for another thread I think ).

There is a wealth of source material for speculation here and you started wonderfully. It is not easy. This is a great topic.

Rosta~~~~~~~ ~~~~~

I am sorry I shapeshifted in to the orb, but I deserve an orb now don't I? I really worked that theory over the summer, so cut me some slack, please!

Also, to your sibling, I rewatched the episode yet again, and this time I did not pick up that Liz specifically said she got vision when Max healed her. I don't know. I think it could go either way, but maybe it's time to go look at the transcripts.

SF, good to see you here more often. It was you and LSS and GraceKel who first prompted me to study the details of the story. And StarWatcher, thanks for honoring us with your first post. (end of p.1) I'm still thinking over some of your points.

About time travel -- I don't think this was contrived just recently, merely to break up Max and Liz. I still suspect we will eventually learn that time travel has played a larger role in the background story. Hints of time travel seem discernible back to the earliest episodes (I posted a list of them during season 1). An old one I would add to the list is a sign in Max's room:

ANY TIME
<======>

(apparently just the bottom of an ordinary No Parking sign, but when the sign is cropped as shown, the two-way arrow seems to take on take on new meaning)

A recent one is Tess tweaking Kyle's "Calvin Klein" briefs, reminding us of Back To The Future.

I suppose the Podsters might have been sent to stop the Skins. Or maybe they were sent and the Skins later tried to take over Earth to find them. With time travel both might be true. I hate time travel.

And Remember: Qfanny caught the

There's been quite a bit of discussion of the Quest on this thread, which emboldened me to add a thought. Ever since "Destiny" I've been watching in dismay as Max in post-traumatic denial tries to blow it all off, when in truth he has been called to be the savior of his people. EOTW sent me scrabbling for some notes I'd made from Campbell's book years ago because one of the points kept coming to mind: the Refusal of the Quest. In the master's own words, here's what happens when "...the subject loses the power of significant action and becomes a victim to be saved. His flowering world becomes a wasteland of dry stones and his life feels meaningless...whatever house he builds, it will be a house of death: a labyrinth...all he can do is create new problems for himself and await the gradual approach of his disintegration." I would add, the world he is charged with preserving is destroyed, and more besides.

In psychological terms, Campbell says this "...represents an impotence to put off the infantile ego, with its sphere of emotional relationships and ideals. One is bound in by the walls of childhood..."

The delightful irony is that Liz, the reason for his refusal, becomes the reason for his ultimate acceptance. I'm glad there's a better future in store for these two gifted kids than a cheesy elopement to Vegas. You note that there's no question in my mind, the (newly restored) future will be better. I'm not merely a shipper, I'm apocalyptic in my shippiness: I see M & L triumphantly ensconced in the end as the blissful, radiant rulers of the other world and maybe ours too. And Tess gets Kyle, and Michael and Isabel get whomever makes them the happiest, and my God I love these characters...

I've got to say that this ep hit me more on the Myth wavelength than on the SciFi. I enjoy a good time paradox as much as the next guy, and I'm on the lookout daily for those tourists from the future. But for me, this time around the science was all in the service of the drama. Max got the call from Mom, but she may not have seemed quite real, and anyway she's the past in a world that for all we know no longer exists. More drastic measures--intervention from both the present and the future--were in order. And nothing could be realer to Max than the present Liz. The unfolding was painful to watch (and then some--thinking about the damn thing kept me up all night), but absolutely necessary. As another poster pointed out, all the other characters are growing by leaps and bounds. It was time Max got a royal kick in the butt.

Thank you for this forum. So many excellent insights I can't begin to name them all. I do totally agree with Leneba, especially regarding Tess. There was shyness, uncertainty, and concern but not a hint of exultation in her face when Max finally accepted her friendly gesture. Also with Jamethiel and all who see spiritual content here. It is common to all great stories, I believe.

Got to go to bed now. Thanks to all.

(another) Liz in Northern California

The Roswell story most reminds me of the Holy Blood/Holy Grail cycles and the book/movie THE LAST TEMPTATION OF CHRIST. I'll try to find a link so those who have not seen the movie or read the book can have a synopsis.

Rosta, first of all, thank you for that stellar reply to my post. Although I had to reread your reply a couple of times to understand it I think I got the gist.

I have seen The Last Temptation of Christ, which makes me think of another comparison. In the movie, Christ, a carpenter, built crosses others were crucified on. Although I'd like to think these particular comparisons of Christ/Mary Magdalene are limited to "Future" Max/Liz. Particularly now that we're dealing with an all new timeline. Future Max is the one that said to h*ll with "destiny", basically putting forth the stepping stones which screw everyone over. Liz, blinded by her love for him, went along with it, not realizing the true ramifications of what a decision like that would do to both their lives (and ultimately, to the entire world).

quote:Indeed, it was this very mythology that prompted the post (and drew me into Roswell) and the theory that Liz was of a special and ancient earthly lineage. Hence, perhaps all the so-called aliens were actually of ancient lineages (vines).

You make me feel like a simpleton. I must be honest, my first initial speculating started because I wanted to see a serious sci fi way of explaining the M/L relationship / connection. Now that I've watched Ros for awhile (and have heavily lurked/posted on the various sci fi threads), I've delved into several other theories in the alien mythos (besides Liz and her relationship with Max, although those are still two of my fave areas of speculating... I'm a Dreamer, what can I say? ).

quote:You have expressed an important part of the story so wonderfully and I am very pleased....

Rosta

That's truly a complement coming from a person as obviously intelligent and eloquent as yourself ::blushes::

I just don't know what else to say, your insights are amazing Rosta, as always.

Melodious

But alas and alack (sp?), not only is the new-posters-look-here-thread missing, but now that we no longer need to ask 'where's Liz?' the Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology Thread has been abducted by Skins!

First; as to Kyle not getting flashes... I think that the first healing (Liz's) was patterned after the books, where they HAD to make a connection with the healee... the healer became one with the healee, a part of them, in order to do the healing. Since Kyle's healing came at the end of the season, they sort of dropped that aspect. Some have attributed it Max's increasing abilities to control his powers... I think TPTB just dropped that aspect because having Kyle look into Max's eyes, etc. was a little too "slashy". (also, guys, Kyle's remark about having visions of Max Evans naked was totally tongue in cheek... just Kyle's brand of humor... some people have taken this a bit too literally).

Second thought... Max knew when to pop into the past because he knew when Liz and he "cemented" their relationship nudge nudge...wink wink . He had to stop the ... um ... er ... "cementing" from taking place. That was the obvious turning point in their relationship.

I often find it difficult to keep myself from accepting some elements of this story on their own merits while somewhat dismissing others as storytelling devices. For example, I don't think an exhaustive examination of the possibilities and ramifications of time-travel will be very fruitful. As science, it's impossible to resolve because every apparent resolution begets another paradox. And let's face it -- Ron Brown notwithstanding -- Roswell is not and never will be Star Trek (not that ST can escape this problem any easier even if it's more earnest in attempting to.

However, time travel provides a very powerful storytelling device. So do fortune tellers. It's interesting that this episode provides ue with two versions of the future. Future Max's version has both the authority of empirical knowledge (FM has lived the events he describes) as well as the scientific "ring of truth." We don't need to fully understand the mechanism, we can simply accept FM's explanation that it has "something to do with quantum mechanics" as sufficient grounds to accept the whole story as being rational. On the other hand, the much older device of the fortune teller is presented in a much more tenuous way. Most of us are automatically skeptical of such irrational approaches to knowledge, and our skepticism is encouraged here by the very guide -- Maria -- who led us to the oracle. Her derisive comment about her mother's reliance on the seer leads us into the tent with our guard up -- or does it?

Interestingly, we soon discover that the FM's seemingly rational version of the future -- that Max and Liz will soon "cement" their relationship, become "inseparable," and live very happily together matches the fortune teller's prediction -- to a point. Of course, Max is only there to give his version because that happiness is eventually threatened (along with the fate of the earth and everyone on it). Now it seems that Future Max must dissolve the Tarot's version of the future in order to preserve the future itself. At least, that's what he and Future Liz appear to believe.

Let's assume for the moment that we can give these two versions of the future equal weight, that as storytelling devices one is as meaningful as the other. Most of the posts I've read that address the the Tarot's version of the future assume that Future Max is indeed destroying it. However, as any fan of Superman or Buffy knows, the paranormal is (and by definition)unrestricted by the laws of nature and reason. In other words, assuming the fortune teller's prediction is true, there is no reason to believe that it does not account for and include Future Max's return to the past. In other words, the "new" future that FM and present Liz create is the same future predicted by Madame Vivian. And why wouldn't it be? Why would the paranormal mechanism of the Tarot be affected by a scientific attempt to interrupt a linear timeline? Quite simply, it wouldn't. If the Tarot can predict anything, it can predict this as well.

Forgive me for the following emphatic statement (it serves my argument). A debate about time travel itself could be quite interestng and entertaining, but ultimately it leads us nowhere in terms of the story, which is a human construct. Only one theory of time travel is applicable -- the aforementioned "causal loop." The reason for this is that IN THE STORY Max always comes back and always does the same things that have the same consequences. If you watch the tape again tonight, tomorrow, or next year, the events will be exactly the same. It doesn't matter how we or the story itself seeks to explain the phenomenon; that is what happens. It doesn't matter whether it's "The Time Machine," "Connecticut Yankee," or "Terminator II," the timeline is the narrative itself.

Some, notably ROSTa and Elliott have pointed out that this part of the narrative highlights the fact that up until now, Max has refused to accept the responibilities of his destiny, that his focus on Liz is a weakness that could eventually mean doom for all the principals (and both their planets). I agree. However, I think there is equal evidence to suggest that Max will not be able to fulfill his role WITHOUT Liz.

Above is some provocative discussion of various myths, legends, and traditional storylines which can be seen as "templates" for the arc of Roswell, most notably the grail and similar quest myths and Christian lore. My view would echo ValentiFan's use of Joseph Campbell (and by proxy Jung) in arguing that Max must recover Liz before he can be whole. Some of you will remember my description of the somewhat frivolous "soul mates" tradition in Western art and thought that emerges out of the Renaissance. In Jungian terms, Liz is the "anima" that complements Max's "animus."

ROSTa and Elliott are correct in portraying Max's repeatedly expressed desire that things were again "normal" as immature and irresponsible. At the same time, I think it's equally apparent that Max's losing Liz for good is not the answer. Future Max tells Liz that if they are successful, the future he comes from will cease to exist. His disappearance signals that this has come to pass. He also tells her that they make their own destinies. So present Max and Liz are again free to be together. And that's what is going to happen.

I've got to go, so let me wrap this up in different terms. If it did nothing else, EotW borught back into focus just how central Max and Liz's relationship is to "Roswell." It left no doubt that they are the nexus of the story. In effect, they control the future. It also highlighted once again, the core fact that they are meant to be together. Finally, as a simple storytelling device, the episode -- like Blind Date and Balance -- could be seen as having been constructed primarily to separate them -- temporarily -- to raise the tension surrounding their efforts to be together. If you think about it, how does EotW move the overall storyline forward? It emphasizes the gravity of the alien conflicts, but it does not develop those conflicts. It offers a vision of the future, but then destroys it. It informs us of an ancilliary use the granolith, but it fails to tell us what the granolith is meant to be used for or why the evil aliens want it. It tantalizes dreamers with all their fantasies, but it then dashes them and brings them low, low, low.

Dreamers, this is a good thing. Since I'm out of time and anyone left is doubtless out of patience, I'll simply say that Madame Vivian is still right. Future Max's voyage has removed the specific threat he came to thwart, but it has not destroyed Max and Liz's future. As ValentiFan suggests, it has improved it.

I downloaded your post, and some others, (including VALENTI FAN -welcome! and wonderful post )to read on the train adn at work.

ELLIOT, thank you for your comments and response. Also thank you MELODIUS1. I'll get back to both of you later.

It's after 4a so just briefly (hoping I'm making sense) until I can read in more detail.

TEPP, I agree with everything including your statements about the time travel debates.

quote:Originally posted by tepp:

Forgive me for the following emphatic statement (it serves my argument). A debate about time travel itself could be quite interestng and entertaining, but ultimately it leads us nowhere in terms of the story, which is a human construct. Only one theory of time travel is applicable -- the aforementioned "causal loop."
The reason for this is that IN THE STORY Max always comes back and always does the same things that have the same consequences.
I agree. However, I think there is equal evidence to suggest that Max will not be able to fulfill his role WITHOUT Liz.

My view would echo ValentiFan's use of Joseph Campbell (and by proxy Jung) in arguing that Max must recover Liz before he can be whole. Some of you will remember my description of the somewhat frivolous "soul mates" tradition in Western art and thought that emerges out of the Renaissance. In Jungian terms, Liz is the "anima" that complements Max's "animus."

I would certainly love to see your description again. I have it on my hard-drive but it would take a while to locate or retrieve. I also see the larger mythology in Jungian (CG and Emma) terms. My grail analysis is based largely on EMMA JUNG's "The Grail Legend" as well as other sources. A fantastic and very readable book.
Just briefly because I can barely keep the eyes open: I expressed the principle of 'completion' in the language of my interpretation of the esoteric grail story: the restoration of the feminine principle, symbolized by(the search for) the 'Lost Bride' of Christ.

I agree that Max's losing Liz for good is not the answer and that they make their own destinies, therefore Max and Liz are again free to be together. As a 'mythical shipper' I'm am more cautious in the belief that the destiny they create necessarily guarantees physical togetherness. Max and Liz are a nexus point, as you say, and are critical to the future. They will come together regardless the waves or ripples in the quantum ocean of time. But we don't know for how long or, yet, for what purpose, they are meant to be together.

quote:
Dreamers, this is a good thing. Since I'm out of time and anyone left is doubtless out of patience, I'll simply say that Madame Vivian is still right. Future Max's voyage has removed the specific threat he came to thwart, but it has not destroyed Max and Liz's future. As ValentiFan suggests, it has improved it.

I agree. It is a good thing.

I'll leave now (and TEPP please don't stay away so long again)because I'm struggling for words at this hour.

Rosta

Oh, and let me add these links and quotes for those who are interested in TLTTOC:
http://www.suntimes.com/ebert/ebert_reviews/1998/01/010706.html

QUOTE from this review: Scorsese and Schrader have not made a film that panders to the audience--as almost all Hollywood religious epics traditionally have. They have paid Christ the compliment of taking him and his message seriously, and they have made a film that does not turn him into a garish, emasculated image from a religious postcard. Here he is flesh and blood, struggling,
questioning, asking himself and his father which is the right way, and finally, after great suffering, earning the right to say, on the cross, "It is accomplished."

The critics of this film, many of whom have not seen it, have raised a sensational hue and cry about the final passages, in which Christ on the cross, in great pain, begins to hallucinate and imagines what his life would have been like if he had been free to live as an ordinary man. In his reverie, he marries Mary Magdelene, has children, grows old. But it is clear in the film that this hallucination is sent to him by Satan, at the time of his greatest weakness, to tempt him. And in the hallucination itself, in the film's most absorbing scene, an elderly Jesus is reproached by his aging Apostles for having abandoned his mission. Through this imaginary conversation, Jesus finds the strength to shake off his temptation and
return to consciousness to accept his suffering, death and resurrection.
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Academy/5218/thelasttemptationofchrist.html

Also see: Http://washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/longterm/movies/videos/thelasttemptationofchristrhinson_a0a8d1.htm

If you have time, another review and director, cast reflections: http://www.thebigpicturedvd.com/cgi-bin/master/viewer.cgi/The_Last_Temptation_Of_Christ

Holy Blood/Holy Grail:
Interesting reading although pseudo scholarly
HOLY BLOOD/HOLY GRAIL: Bloodline of the Holy Grail http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Congress/2301/gardnera.html

wow! great stuff folks! wonderful to hear about the hero with a thousand faces. you guys have really done your research and are eloquent in your posting! (valentifan, rostafehrian, melodious1, tepp, nemo, qfanny, shapeshifter, palomino, ...yikes there's so much great stuff on this thread it's hard to keep track!)

i agree that eventually max and liz being together will be what allows him to take responsibility and act effectively.

however as several people already written about, max's use of his feelings for liz as a way to avoid his own awareness of destiny and his traumatic experiences had produced an unhealthy, non-generative aspect to the relationship.

now the storyline has developed in a way where that can be examined and utilized as a point of maturation for the charactors.

in thinking about the concept of time travel it strikes me as a magical talisman for the modern world. instead of magic boots, wands, rings we have this concept as a way to have wishes granted. so time travel becomes a way for people to 'wish' things to be right (again). and despite the scientific loopholes, the energy behind the idea seems firmly rooted in myth, magic, and hope.

anyway,thanks again for all these wonderful posts. for those of you who love the campbell as i do, let me recommend erich neumann's "the origins and history of consciousness". it traces beautifully the development of mythologies and archetypes.

is it next monday yet?

jenlev

The way I see it the show's canon has established that time is linear. No alternate worlds, quantum realities, or branching timelines. Had this not been a simple linear jump, Max would not have disappeared. He would have changed the destiny of the current Roswell, but his own doomed timeline would have gone on intact. It was necessary that he disappear (can't have two Maxes running around) so he did. Ergo the timeline is linear. No loops required. No endless repititions possible. It was a one shot, all or nothing, deal. In fact, I'd bet that time travel via Granolith is a one way proposition. Back...but not forward. He had no return ticket.

Which led me to ask, how did FM know when he is? FM and FL didn't seem to program the Grenelyth before activiting it. This led me to think that they, FM, FMi, FI, FL, and Serena developed the plan a long time ago and the grenelyth was already programmed to go.

I just assumed that the crystal Max inserted into the Granolith had all the necessary time co-ordinates. But how long did it take them to encode the crystal? FM convinces PL to keep trying to make PM fall out of love with her by telling her that Michael died in his arms 25 minutes before he came back to the present, and Isabel died two weeks before that. I don't see them being able to encode the crystal in 25 minutes, so Isabel's death must have been the impetus for this course of action. So they had two weeks to decide when to go back to, or as Reggie pointed out for FL to come up with the plan. The when they chose had more to do with their relationship, i.e., preventing the "cementing," than getting PM together with Tess. L & M getting together is what started them on the path to their bad future, Tess leaving was just one of the corollaries to that event.

Qfanny, I think it was you who made the superman comment about FMax with the crystal. I was thinking "The Dark Crystal" when I saw that scene.

Nemo said
About time travel -- I don't think this was contrived just recently, merely to break up Max and Liz. I still suspect we will eventually learn that time travel has played a larger role in the background story. Hints of time travel seem discernible back to the earliest episodes (I posted a list of them during season 1).

Nemo, always good to see you too. I do agree with you that time travel seems intrinsic to the Roswell storyline, and the hints are definitely there, but in the context of this single episode, it did seem like a plot device. As tepp so eloquently said, "If it did nothing else, EotW borught back into focus just how central Max and Liz's relationship is to "Roswell." It left no doubt that they are the nexus of the story. In effect, they control the future. It also highlighted once again, the core fact that they are meant to be together. Finally, as a simple storytelling device, the episode - like Blind Date and Balance -- could be seen as having been constructed primarily to separate them -- temporarily -- to raise the tension surrounding their efforts to be together. If you think about it how does EotW move the overall storyline forward? It emphasizes the gravity of the alien conflicts, but it does not develop those conflicts. It offers a vision of the future, but then destroys it. It informs us of an ancilliary use the granolith, but it fails to tell us what the granolith is meant to be used for or why the evil aliens want it. It tantalizes dreamers with all their fantasies, but it then dashes them and brings them low, low, low."

To take a slightly different spin on tepp's comment, I was initially really annoyed at the episode's stereotypical romance story plot-line. To me the whole focus of the episode was to get us to the point where we understood why and sympathized with Liz while she intentionally hurt and deceived PM. For anyone who has never read a romance, they all follow essentially the same story: (a.) trials and tribulations, (b.) in love together, (c.) the big misunderstanding or deception (generally on the part of the woman and for a good reason) that breaks them up, (d.) reconciliation, (e.) happily ever after. We were stuck in a and b for most of the first season, and they've been building c from destiny until this episode. Dreamers don't need to worry, we will be getting a reconciliation (d), but I think Elliot is right on the money, it's probably not going to happen until May sweeps (maybe February sweeps if the ratings are low). I make myself feel cynical just reading that. Sorry to bring you all down. This episode really bummed me out, and I felt very manipulated by it. Yeah, I know I was supposed to, so I appreciate that it was a good episode. Now that I've read all these wonderful insightful and positive posts, I'm feeling less hostile towards it.

Lenaba, I'm always a big fan of your posts, this one was great. Melodious1, Rosta, Valentifan and Tepp, what can I say. You guys blow me away. I really need to get going and read the people you qoute.

SF

First of all, fantastic post ValentiFan and I'm glad I'm not alone in what you describe as "apocalyptic in the shippiness"... I too have pondered for more time than I'd care to admit *grandious* scenarios for M/L's triumph over all obstacles. A blissfully happy and utterly invincible pairing. I could go on forever!! The poor Liz Mythologists have received the brunt of my overactive imagination. Dreaminess combined with my love for this thread and the Liz Myth/RBI thread isn't necessarily a good combination.

Melodious

Reggie: I'm glad you addressed some of my thoughts and questions, especially with regards to the "moment" future Liz ceases to exist. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thanks.

ROSta: Was it you asking about (The Matrix) Nemo's intended? Her name was Trinity. Talk about a name laden with symbolism! As usual, you've given me a lot to think about.

quote:Originally posted by tepp:
time travel provides a very powerful storytelling device. So do fortune tellers. It's interesting that this episode provides ue with two versions of the future. Future Max's version has both the authority of empirical knowledge (FM has lived the events he describes) as well as the scientific "ring of truth." We don't need to fully understand the mechanism, we can simply accept FM's explanation that it has "something to do with quantum mechanics" as sufficient grounds to accept the whole story as being rational. On the other hand, the much older device of the fortune teller is presented in a much more tenuous way

Interestingly, we soon discover that the FM's seemingly rational version of the future -- that Max and Liz will soon "cement" their relationship, become "inseparable," and live very happily together matches the fortune teller's prediction -- to a point. Of course, Max is only there to give his version because that happiness is eventually threatened (along with the fate of the earth and everyone on it). Now it seems that Future Max must dissolve the Tarot's version of the future in order to preserve the future itself. At least, that's what he and Future Liz appear to believe.

Let's assume for the moment that we can give these two versions of the future equal weight, that as storytelling devices one is as meaningful as the other. Most of the posts I've read that address the the Tarot's version of the future assume that Future Max is indeed destroying it. However, as any fan of Superman or Buffy knows, the paranormal is (and by definition)unrestricted by the laws of nature and reason. In other words, assuming the fortune teller's prediction is true, there is no reason to believe that it does not account for and include Future Max's return to the past. In other words, the "new" future that FM and present Liz create is the same future predicted by Madame Vivian. And why wouldn't it be? Why would the paranormal mechanism of the Tarot be affected by a scientific attempt to interrupt a linear timeline? Quite simply, it wouldn't. If the Tarot can predict anything, it can predict this as well.

Dreamers, this is a good thing. Since I'm out of time and anyone left is doubtless out of patience, I'll simply say that Madame Vivian is still right. Future Max's voyage has removed the specific threat he came to thwart, but it has not destroyed Max and Liz's future. As ValentiFan suggests, it has improved it.

[/B]

Tepp: YES, YES, YES!!! I had pretty much come to the same conclusion with regards to the validity of Madame Vivian's predictions, but you fleshed it out in a much more eloquent way. Having given it some additional thought, and putting some of the specifics of the readings aside, I think that the essence of each reading will remain true, regardless of time-travel manipulations.

Rachelle

I am sorry I shapeshifted in to the orb, but I deserve an orb now don't I? I really worked that theory over the summer, so cut me some slack, please!
[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh, sure. Take two, they're small!

So tell us, how accurate and/or misleading were the spoilers for TEOTW?

Remember:
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any Questions?

I am sorry I shapeshifted in to the orb, but I deserve an orb now don't I? I really worked that theory over the summer, so cut me some slack, please!
[/B][/QUOTE]
Oh, sure. Take two, they're small!

So tell us, how accurate and/or misleading were the spoilers for TEOTW?

Remember:
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any Questions?

What i believe as far as time travel goes is that God knows everything that is going to happen in this world from now till the end of time. If time travel were possible God would know what was going to get changed.

I also felt from this eppy that Liz is a better leader than Max. How so? Liz was willing to sacrifice her happiness for the good of humanity. Max really did not care about being leader. He only knew he loved Liz.

FM was very vague about the future. What destroys the world. Skins, evil blonds...
I think it would have been helpful to tell Liz, so she would know what to look for.

I agree with others. This did seem like a romance plot device, but i love time travel. It is one of my favorite elements of sci fi.

Bye for now.

Liz did seem to have alot of influence over Max and always has. I think that FMax was rather unhealthy mentally and still dependent on her. Up till now, Max has been denying who and what he is, and has totally immersed himself in the Liz relationship, trying to lose himself and his reality. FMax told Liz that her Kyle-in-bed plan would not work, but clearly from the rest of the conversation, FMax was very jealous as if he subconsciously did not want it to work when it really got down to it. Even then, he selfishly wanted those 12 years with Liz. At the end, he was more at peace with the situation as if he too had grown from the experience.

PMax that was going to become FMax, was in an unhealthy relationship, and FMax was born of that. We saw what our Max would have become if he had forced himself on Liz ("I didn't take 'no' for an answer"). This Max was also dependent on Liz and lost in the relationship, probably not becoming the leader he needed to be. Now that Liz has sent him away, he can no longer lean on her and has to stand up by himself. With no relationship to hide in, he must face what he is and confront his problems rather than hide from them as before. With a leaner, meaner Max, there may be a greater hope for the future, and if the L/M relationship resumes, it will be a more balanced and healthy relationship. I used the word "balanced" for a reason. Balance does seem to be important to the aliens in their ability to function. If she pushed Max off her, into a standing position, Liz may have given Max his balance back, and saved our world.

The more Max embraces his role as a leader and becomes his own person the better chance he has at suceeding in defeating his enemies. And I bet his relationship with Liz will be stronger for it in the end.

It's just hard to watch all the pain Max and Liz have to go through for this growth to take place.

One small digression. I noted that there were two "stars" on the shelf above Liz in her bedroom...there used to be only one. And at the end of the episode, when Future Max comes out of the bathroom he is framed on either side by two "lamps." Seems meaningfull in light of their "two paths," "two wisdoms" "two futures." Also, there was a discussion, a long time ago about the theme of windmills. One wall of Liz's room has a painting of a windmill, perhaps a symbol of Don Quixote's quest?

"I shall believe!"

SF

Hi SF! Nice to see you around! Anyway, let's play this up a bit okay! I think this will be my only post for today, as I know I have a cold sneaking up behind me right now. Time for the OJ, a box of kleenex, and a remote control.

I cannot see how you could encode a crystal. Don't crystals take years to grow? And what properties do crystal's have that could hold digital or analog encryption? The shape and cyclindar style of the crystal makes me think it's a key of sorts. A crystal can naturally occur and be used as a prism. A prism can manipulate light. If the grenelythe has enormus power, then the crystal might be key in concentrating and directing it's energy.

I'm not saying that the crystal can't hold encryption, I just cannot right now see how it's done.

I cannot see how you could encode a crystal. Don't crystals take years to grow? And what properties do crystal's have that could hold digital or analog encryption? The shape and cyclindar style of the crystal makes me think it's a key of sorts. A crystal can naturally occur and be used as a prism. A prism can manipulate light. If the grenelythe has enormus power, then the crystal might be key in concentrating and directing it's energy.

I'm not saying that the crystal can't hold encryption, I just cannot right now see how it's done.

I didn't see a "crystal"; it looked more like a plastic rod with bits inside. Actually, I thought of the final scenes of Escape from the Planet of the Apes, where they blow up the world.

A cold? Chicken soup, with garlic. Garlic is a wonderful decongestant.

Well, of course. He would also know what happened on the timeline that ceased to exist; in fact, He'd be the only one. People who were born, lived, and/or died on that timeline also need to be accounted for; and that's up to Him.

Omnescence is a very broad thing!

Omnescence is a very broad thing!

Not to get too philosophical (it's been a very loooooong day)... as creatures with finite minds, it is impossible for us to imagine the infinite

Ditto on the "Is it Monday Yet??"

Star_Dust2/Nanette

Definitely, Lorrilei, but God would see it with a 4 dimensional perspective (or maybe 5?) which we can only imagine.

But Reggie, I think you need to GraceKel your VCR a little: it sure looks like a crystal to me--like one of the spikes from those perfectly halved quartz crystals they sell in Health food stores...or even the not-so-perfectly halved rocks I remember from Connecticuit when I was just a wee little shapeshifter.

But to whomever (Qfanny?) said they take too many years to grow: I'm thinking of those little crystal garden growing kits my kids had.

Whether or not the programming was in the object that looked very much like a crystal (as well as a futuristic dildo), Future Max clearly arrived when he intended to. In fact, Tess seemed in the process of deciding to leave Roswell that same night. Had he and Liz not changed the timeline, Tess might have been gone within days (more than likely right after the Gomez concert that ML didn't attend).

Earlier on this thread there was a lot of speculation about the scene in which Max kissed Liz after her realized Liz was trying to push him and Tess together. As I remember, almost everyone assumed that when Max says "I felt that and I know you did to" (or whatever), he was indicating that he was aware Liz had experienced flashes during the kiss. I don't think this was necessarily the case at all. Max said what any normal boy kissing any normal girl might have said in similar circumstances. What he "felt" was the connection between him and Liz. In the opening episode of this season, Liz experiences flashes when Max grabs her arm. He asks her if anything's wrong, and she says no. He clearly doesn't know what has happened. The point is that we do. The flashes are for our benefit. I see no reason why the scene in EotW is any different. If he wanted to use the flashes as evidence that she still loved him, he probably would have referred to them more explicitly. Instead, he merely says he felt "that" -- the kiss itself.

As for Liz asking Kyle if he "saw things" when Max healed him, most seem concerned with continuity. Since we didn't see Liz experience any flashes when Max healed her, we assume that she didn't. Maybe she did though. In the end, it doesn't matter. The scene with Kyle in EotW was designed to answer the question we asked so many times last year -- is Liz unique or are her visions a standard byproduct of the healing process. If Kyle had been "changed" in some significant way too, we'd have evidence that Liz was not "special." However, this scene further reinforces the pattern that so many of us noted over the course of last season. It is but one more indication (if not verification) that Liz is something more than normal.

Ironically, it is also yet another example of the conflict between Liz and Tess. Tess has always viewed herself as being disposessed of what is rightfully hers, and the alien mother's message (along with Nasedo and the alien book) would seem to support her claim. However, events repeatedly suggest that it's the other way around, that Liz is the rightful claimant to Tess's role. The most important example occurs in Sexual Healing, in which Liz plays the pivotal role in locating the communicator -- something the aliens could not have accomplished without her.

The scenes between Kyle and Tess and Kyle and Liz in EotW offer a reminder that Liz is superior to Tess. Just as Tess agrees to "trim wicks" with Kyle, Liz shows up and separates them. In the final scene, it is Liz who ends up in bed with Kyle. During that scene, the discussion of visions reinforces Liz's unique abilities (powers?). Of course, the scene opens the way for Tess to approach Max but only because Liz wanted it that way. Again, Liz proves willing to sacrifice what she wants for Max's benefit and the greater good. Again, Tess seems only concerned with claiming what she believes is hers by right. Nevertheless, we see that Liz is again actually triumphant.

Similarly, Future Max explains that he came to Liz and not Tess because he trusts Liz. The implication is that he does not trust Tess. In fourteen years of strife and war, Liz has proven herself worthy. It is Tess who has failed the cause. The plan to redeem Tess cannot rely on her. It can only rely on Liz. Once again, Liz plays the pivotal role. She is the key to success. She is Max's partner in love and battle. She is the rightful queen.

At this moment Tess is more of a "teenager" than Liz ever was in her life. 5 gets you 10 that even with the clear unobstructed shot at Max, that Liz has set up for her, Tess' fundamental immaturity will cause her to muff it.

One thing though....when this gets around (Max "catching" Liz with Kyle) Iz and Michael aren't going to be real happy with her in a "you could have found a better way" sort of way. Nor with Kyle. I don't know how long they'll drag out this arc, but I suspect a "comedy of errors" before they resolve it.

Regarding that crystal that activated the Granolith, I have several questions. Where did they get it? Was it a "floppy disk", or just the "ignition key"? If it contained a pre-program, where was it set up? If it was done in the Granolith chamber, then there was a need for it. Why not use it then and there? If it was set up elsewhere, that argues another alien-tech installation outside the chamber. Where? I look forward to seeing how all this gets answered.

A simple explanation would be that they were fighting "conventionally" against the skins. But at some point they saw the handwriting on the wall, and set up a contingency procedure. A last ditch. Therefore they created the program at the Granolith and carried it with them until it became clear that their backs were against the wall. Man oh man, I would *not* have wanted to be in Max and Liz's shoes when they concieved *that* plan. *sigh* I bet Liz thought of it first.

At this moment Tess is more of a "teenager" than Liz ever was in her life. 5 gets you 10 that even with the clear unobstructed shot at Max, that Liz has set up for her, Tess' fundamental immaturity will cause her to muff it.

...Regarding that crystal that activated the Granolith, I have several questions. Where did they get it? Was it a "floppy disk", or just the "ignition key"? ....
TEPP, ditto for me on the eloquence.
And Kzinti_Killer, you wax pretty poetic yourself!

But I'm not sure about Tess's immaturity being the main divider. I am thinking about how Max already knows Liz was trying to set Tess up with him out of a sense of doing the right thing. When it becomes obvious that Kyle & Liz are not a thing, Max will figure it out. Maybe he will figure it out because Kyle will pursue Tess and she will like being pursued?

I agree on the "you're not changing" remark having deeper meanings, that is, referring to Liz reverting back to her unchanged self.

On the crystal: I'm thinking of it as a conductor of mass to energy to mass. Don't ask me to explain, it's just an abstract idea. I'm also seeing the crystal as possibly related to the beepers with regards to geometric shape and therefore method of conducting energy. Did anyone notice how many sides the crystal had? The base of the Granolith has 12.

I'm not saying that the crystal can't hold encryption, I just cannot right now see how it's done.

quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
I didn't see a "crystal"; it looked more like a plastic rod with bits inside.

I think Reggie is onto something with the flaws inside the "crystal." If light were projected through the crystal it would be refracted by the flaws in a predictable pattern. The time co-ordinates could be encoded by intentional flaws in the crystal. It then becomes a key as you suggest focusing the granolith on a point in time. FM could have created the crystal instantaneoulsy by manipulating the molecular structures of some object that was lying around.

SF

P.S. I hope your cold is short lived.

I had one geek tell me that they're working on a solid state storage medium that resembles nothing so much as a small chunk of clear plexiglass. The data is encoded holographically and stored redundantly in the medium. He claimed (note the use of the word "claimed") that you could store the Encyclopedia Britannica on the thing, saw it in half, and still have a complete set of data in both of the halves. Like a freaking ameoba dividing. Real blue sky stuff. I'll beleive it when I see it...but then 20 years ago I said the same thing about CD's. And I hadn't an inkling about Laser Disks or DVDs. *g*

Actually, that's a normal property of a hologram: that the information (image) is recorded all over the thing, not one byte here, another byte there. It's a parlor trick to get a holograph, cut it in half, and have the same image on both. Note that the division of the image reduces the resolution of the recovered image, not the area shown.

I like your explanation, but in the Roswell canon, all the alien technology that we've seen has had no parallels to human technology. If anything, it's appeared to be low tech, or organic, or form hasn't followed function. The most traditional SF "techno-structure" we've seen to date has been the granolith, and that's after Ron Moore joined the writers.

Sf

Anyway, SF, KK and Reggie: This is a pretty interesting discussion because we are speculating on the mechanics of the granolith on a sort of nuts and bolts level. The plastic stick/crystal key may infact hold the encryption to time travel, but other questions still bug me. Why was only Max pulled into it. Does the Granolith know it's owner or look for a certain molecular pattern? Liz not being alien, she was not recognized? Also, since we know preplanning was involved, how did the Granolith know to drop FM right in front of PL's window. Not only is it a time machine, but a tranporter.

I like the poster that said the time canon of Roswell seemed to be linear. And that the new timeline will replace the old timeline seamlessly. I agree to some degree. Nemo and others have stated for a while that Pilot shows a lot of evidence to time travel. The dates in Liz's journal and the hand print are different at times. What if this suggests that timelines do not just fall seamlessly over the old timeline. I really don't believe that this is a situation of paradox, but hey, it's all speculation anyway, isn't it?

It looked like right before Max got "sucked" in that he was concentrating and that perhaps his mental energy was the thing that actually activated it.

We've seen in the past that the podsters sheer mental energy activates many of their devices. I'd tend to beleive that the crystal was the encryption code, but that Max actually activated it himself, which is why Liz wasn't sucked in.

--KATE

Also, from the Loose Ends, Nagging Questions, and Continuity Issues thread: quote:By Nemo 11-02-2000, 07:35 PM
quote:Originally posted by The Roswellian:
...why couldn't Nacedo find Max, Michael and Isabel until Michael summoned him in Blind Date? As I understand it, Nacedo hid the pods in the chamber sometime in 1947 or thereabouts, and then returned when the pods were due to hatch. But only Tess was still there, because the others hatched early and went wandering out. So he took Tess and they wandered around the world. But he had to know that Max, Michael and Isabel were nearby. After all, how far could they go? And once you get into town, how hard could it have been to find out if some kids had been found by the side of the road in the desert? Since Nacedo had to know they were in Roswell, why did he wait so long to come for them?....
(emphasis added ~N.)
Your questions all look very logical. The situation sketched above looks hard to explain. The difficulties you point out seem to stem from the part of the story marked in bold above. So, who told us that part, and how much reason do we have to trust it?

Doesn't it come only from Tess and Ed Harding? Which really boils down to just Ed Harding, because Tess (if she really is the age she appears to be) would only know what Harding told her about her origins. And apparently he wasn't completely forthright with her about other things -- she seemed not to know he had been killing people until Max told her.

The story of Tess being alongside the others in the pods, and being left behind, comes only from one vision seen by Max. This vision appeared to be projected by Tess. It came after at least one other Tessovision that was plainly untrue. Even if Tess believed the story she was conveying there, should we, considering the obvious difficulties it creates? (Isabel distrusted the story instinctively. Also, the school record shows Tess's birthday as a little earlier, not later, than Max's. Not definite, I know, but maybe another hint.)Although all the podster birthdays could have been chosen by humans who had no clue when they were "born," the discrepancy in the dates could point to another tear in time.

Slightly OT: the choice of birthdays to make up for unknown birthdays would be evidence of Max (and others) being a type of Christ in the modern sense.

But, all that aside, the break of this temporary pairing can't come from Max. No matter what conclusions he reaches. Because that would negate the reason for the exercise. Tess would get disgruntled and blow town in a huff. And the Ragnarok would arrive more or less on schedule. Then what? Another time jump? No, the breakup has to occur from Tess' direction. She has to outgrow this "it is written" nonsense. Either through chasing Kyle. Or simply by being unable to connect with Max the way Liz did...and knowing that the failing is hers. Not Max's.

SF: I think it was Arthur C. Clarke that said, "An alien technology sufficiently advanced would simply appear to be magic." Or words to that effect. I think that, as far as it goes, the alien-tech has earth analogs. In electronics there are contraints imposed by mathematics and physics, on both form and function. But not on size and composition. I'd say they're doing they same things that we do, just differently. Examined with the naked eye, there appears to be little in common between a bank of vacumn tubes and a micro chip. But they both do the same job. For all we know that "crystal" may have had the equivalent of a Cray Super computer packed into it. The tech may *look* different. And allowing for new principles and alien powers, much of it may *be* different. But pushing electrons is pushing electrons. No matter how you do it. A circuit is a circuit, no matter how tiny.

Qfanny: I think that was me on the linear time issue. At least I know I see it that way. But I agree that it may not be totally seamless. It depends on how the rules are applied (or whether the writers stayed up let drinking the night before *eg*). There's an author named James P. Hogan that writes very good time travel stories. In "Thrice Upon A Time" they invented a gizmo that would hook up to a small computer. Like a PC. It could send *data* back to an earlier version of itself (note: it obviously could not go back farther than the day all the hardware was put together and was up and running). Whenever it was used the timeline would reset. Instantly reconfigure itself to reflect the effect of the data, that the earlier machine had recieved, on the actions of the people in that time. That book gave me an a-one headache. *g* Trying to keep track of who was who, and what was happening to them would drive you nuts. Two of the key players were the "Max and Liz" of the story. In the first run through they met and fell in love. In the second they didn't meet. In the third they almost met. In the fourth...you get the picture. The story ended at the precise moment of their meeting. You never did discover what happened to them.

I have this whacko vision that all this could come to naught. Tess will leave, the end of the world will come. And Max will do another jump to try and fix it. If he jumps back further, then what? He will undo what the first jump accomplished. Requiring a third jump. *Unless* Liz tells him what happened and why. And he takes steps to forestall damaging the work his earlier self accomplished. LoL See how twisted it could get?

Hey Kzinti_Killer

I agree with the point you're making, it's just that in the first season, Roswell's alien technology seemed much more aligned with the metaphysical than with the physical. This season the granolith appears to be more aligned with the physical, and the beepers seem to be bit of a hybrid. I'd be interested in hearing your take on the crystals that restored Michael's balance, and revived Ed Harding, as well as the orbs. If you go to Qfanny and shapeshifters site, they have all the different speculations on the orbs (Qfanny is really interested in them).

SF

PS I keep forgetting to ask. Are you a Niven fan, or am I misinterpreting your board name?

Let me think of the crystals a bit. I lean toward artificial amplifiers, but I'll chew it over and get back to you.

It looked like right before Max got "sucked" in that he was concentrating and that perhaps his mental energy was the thing that actually activated it.

We've seen in the past that the podsters sheer mental energy activates many of their devices. I'd tend to beleive that the crystal was the encryption code, but that Max actually activated it himself, which is why Liz wasn't sucked in.

--KATE

You know, I think you're right here. But why did it not pull Liz in. If the healing stones are an example of Twilo toys, they can be used successfully by regular ol' humans. Is just the concentration enough, or did Max manipulate his entire body and put it inside the granolith?

Bumping from page 3!

I'm not sure if you're talking to me, but if you are, I am not suggesting that the granolith = healing stones. I am trying to figure out why Liz wasn't sucked into the granolith with Max.

Here are my possible answers:
1) The granolith recognizes its hybrid owners, (which doesn't seem possible since the skins think they could use the granolith.)
2) Max used his powers to go into the granolith, the granolith had nothing to do with it.
3) Granolith got lucky.
4) Perhaps key told granolith only Max.

I am so confused.

1. They can't use it themselves, but realize it is a weapon the SSers could use against them. Maybe in that timebranch, the podsters never knew all its capabilities, or were lacking another crystal that could have properly utilized it.
2. It is a transporter that can bring more weapons and armies here to take over the Earth.

This brings up another thing that has been on my mind. The Skins don't seem to satisfied by tracing down the king and killing him. They actually want to take over the Earth. The CW said that Valondra had betrayed her brother and her race for her great love, gotten them all killed, and that her kind no longer rules. It sounds like lust, greed, and ambition have been important in the fall of their planet. If you look at the podsters, Michael seems to be ambitious(he isn't satisfied with Max as leader, he took control when Nasedo died), and he seems to have lust for both Maria and Courtney. Isabel has lust for Grant and was trying to date him behind Alex's back. I don't know if anybody has brought up the fact that she was trying to two-time him. Rather immoral. Tess has had lust for Kyle(did Nasedo raise her to be faithful to Max physically?), has ambition for being queen, and has rather nastily tried to make Max feel lust for her. Of the podsters, only Max does not exibit lust, greed, or ambition. His "lust" for Liz is only an expression of his love. If he had lust, he would take advantage of the Tess situation.

There must be something different about Max. Something incorruptable and "pure". I think if Liz had to briefly describe Max(since she is the only one he has apparently connected with), she would say he was "Pure of Heart". This makes you wonder what kind of leader he was - probably kind, fair, and and not abusive of power, but it may also have made him blind to the impure around him. He seemed in shock after catching Liz with Kyle, as if he could not understand it. Perhaps, in his previous life, Max never saw the betrayal coming. Maybe since Liz has betrayed him now, his eyes will be more open to the reality of human and alien nature.

It also makes me wonder what the issue was in the aliens' war. Was it just that another race invaded them? Was it a civil war? A little unlikely, because there seems to be two races involved, and that would mean that two two sentient species developed on the same planet, or maybe one race allowed another to move in with them? Was it that another leader used Volandra to stage a coup against her brother? What if there was another issue? What if Max-Pure-of-Heart refused to take over lesser civilizations like Earth? What if he was too kind and moral to subjegate other species like us, but someone else was not above conquering technologically underdeveloped people? What if that debate brought on the war? If it was just a matter of a coup to control that planet, why take over the Earth as Future Max said they did?

I think RD and Indian mythology/prophesies may shed some light on Max and even Liz. Where is RD, and WHERE IS TIC-TAC who could really shed some light? (pun intended)

The comment you made about the skins wanting to dominate over the Earth brings me back to two season one scenes. The first is a cut line from Mommogram, where mommogram first tells the podsters to protect Earth, and then rescue their kind. The second line it reminds me of comes from Pierce. This is when he says, "I'm protecting my planet from colonization." Even under the Pierce as EA premise, this line seems to fit Earth still. As if Pierce had more infromation than what the podsters knew about. (I still think the guy was an evil alien. In fact, I'm surprised that TPTB haven't address this question yet and given us a straight forward answer.)

But we do not know for a fact that it is the skins that take over the Earth in 2014. I did not hear FM say it was the skins. We could be talking about another faction to the intergalatic alien war. However, assuming it is the skins is an ok assumption.

(The skins seem a little silly for a nemesis anyway, give me something really evil please, like the Darleks!)

Regarding civil war on planet Twilo: I know I will not be able to change your view, but I still think that the skins-podsters are genetically the same race! Both have been modified from their original SSer form. Skins take on skins to exist on off world planets. A technology that modifies quickly, but lasts only about 50 years. The podsters have to be raised like humans, because the DNA that they undertook has to develop normal. But the end result is they don't have to worrying about dying at the end of 50 years.

Your theory is sound too, but until I hear one of the podsters say, "species" instead of "race" is am thinking that everyone, SSers, podsters and skins are genetically the same species. Race is a term some people still use today to describe NA, Jews, blacks, etc.

Where is TicTac! I have no idea. I really wish he'd show up with RiverDog.

I have this whacko vision that all this could come to naught. Tess will leave, the end of the world will come. And Max will do another jump to try and fix it. If he jumps back further, then what? He will undo what the first jump accomplished. Requiring a third jump. *Unless* Liz tells him what happened and why. And he takes steps to forestall damaging the work his earlier self accomplished. LoL See how twisted it could get?

Along that line of thinking, Max will have to go back to the shooting and stop himself from saving Liz, what started this whole mess in the first place.

The worst thing is that I could see Liz convincing Max he needed to do this to save the world. Remember Liz's speech in Destiny, "I wish I could go back and stop you from saving me that day in the Crashdown." And now it's possible.

I really hate myself for posting that.

Palomino, ditto on what Qfanny said about how great it is that you don't get lost in speculation like some of us (shapeshifter = ). But Palomino, ol' Pal, Max not having lust? Um, think (just for a moment only) of SH when he said something like, "I just can't not touch you now." And what about his being "drawn" to Tess? I agree he is Captain PureHeart, but he does have his human body. Okay, I'm getting off on a tangent here. In the books there was the insidious "evil" of the Collective Consciousness; maybe there is something similar brewing in our TV plot. I understand that you don't have an interest in reading all Ten of the books (I personally never got past the Hobbit either), but you might want to skim book 10.

Qfanny, I'm also wondering why Liz didn't get sucked in, but have no answers...unless maybe the crystal he put in was his personal crystal, and not coded for anyone else.

The worst thing is that I could see Liz convincing Max he needed to do this to save the world. Remember Liz's speech in Destiny, "I wish I could go back and stop you from saving me that day in the Crashdown." And now it's possible.

Future Max said that the time change needed "surgical precision". That leads me to think that the time he came back was carefully chosen, not just as the time to prevent Max & Liz from "cementing" their relationship and driving Tess off, but as the best time to begin the time change.

ok. ok. I admit I'm a Dreamgirl , but I think that Liz must be as important to the timeline as Tess is (in different ways, perhaps), or Future Max would have showed up earlier. He could have somehow prevented Present (Past?) Max from being at the Crashdown the day Liz got shot or, even better if you don't need Liz, FMax could have made sure that sure that Tess didn't get left behind by M,M&I when they all hatched.

If M,M&I had stuck around long enough for Nasedo to show up, they all would have been raised together and Max would be bonded to Tess from the beginning. All the problems of inconvenient human relationships, lack of knowledge about their destinies, lack of knowledge about their powers, etc. would have been avoided.

So, either the writers just didn't want to destroy the entire premise of the series , or there is a reason that FMax won't prevent PMax from saving/knowing Liz.

True that the podsters can survive here by being hybrids, but T-t and Nasedo seemed to be pure aliens and survived quiet well, even diddling the natives. (Boy, I hope he didn't diddle Liz's mother. I do like the idea of Liz being an alien, part alien, lost podster, bride's essence, etc. Kind of ruins the love story.)

If the skins can't live here without their "skins", why do they want Earth? Are they going to change our environment to make it suitable (granolith purpose)? Do the SSers need Earth in its present condition as a haven for exiles or even their whole population? Soooo many possibilities.

If the skins can't live here without their "skins", why do they want Earth? Are they going to change our environment to make it suitable (granolith purpose)? Do the SSers need Earth in its present condition as a haven for exiles or even their whole population? Soooo many possibilities.

I think you mean you don't like the idea of Liz being an alien, etc.?

Good question, about why the Skins want Earth. Or do they? If they had invaded decades ago, they could have conquered Earth. There would be no opportunity for Max (etc.) to grow up and challange them. Maybe they don't want Earth, but just want the Royal Four. Earth is just an inconvenient chessboard. The attack in the background of the future might have been an assault in force (from offworld, so it's truely an invasion) on the Granolith Chamber and its royal occupant, rather than a worldwide assault.

There's so little we know !

1. re Max as Pure Heart.... It is unfortunate that Max is, perhaps, too good of a guy. Leaders, whether they be kings or generals, almost have to have a certain ruthless edge in order to be effective leaders. They have to be able to choose who will live or die, for the good of the whole. (If you saw the movie U571, this was made clear... the main protagonist was not given command of his own ship because he was too nice and lacked that ruthless quality) . This is true especially in time of stress (war, etc. ) . Yes, we do want our leaders to be honest, fair, trustworthy and honorable, but we also want them to be commanding, decisive, and hard when the situation warrants it. So far Max has only demonstrated these latter qualities when they decided to "take their lives back". He usually is, yes, a great guy, but almost indecisive and tenative...qualities that do NOT inspire masses to follow you to their deaths (ok... that was a bit over the top... I admit it )

2. re: Max's loyal troops ... We know, from what FM said, that at least Michael was at his side at the end. His comment about Isabel's death leads us to assume that she was also with him (although, he merely stated that she had died two weeks before). I got the impression that the podsters did stay together, in spite of the message from CW that Valendra/Isabel had betrayed her brother in their former lives. That, at least, is a cheery thought.

Qfanny... actually I was addressing it to the crowd, because it seemed as though there were some thoughts which circled this purely speculative idea.

This was really odd, because I was replying to Qfanny's question, but only my quote came up. I am NOT talking to myself....

Max has had sexual drive, which had something to do with the constellations alining and awakening their biological drives - or so we are told. He said he was drawn to Tess, but did not say if it was sexual. Was it as a mate, a fellow podster, or just because she was putting erotic visions in his head? His sexual drive seems a straight and narrow road to Liz and does not wander. His choice of her as a mate when still a small boy would explain his desire for her now. How many 17 year old boys could resist the temptation of a Tess offering herself so wantonly(sp)? His resistance to temptation speaks volumes about his lack of lust. He is dedicated to his mate, and his sexual desires are for her alone, so far.

If there is something different about Max, and he is "Max-the-Pure", has Liz already changed the future by changing him? If he was once a trusting individual that was betrayed by those closest to him because he couldn't see it coming, then was Liz with Kyle his wake-up call? Was the supposed trist with Liz and Kyle actually Max's loss of innocence? Can he maybe see it coming next time? He wouldn't be any less less pure-of-heart himself, but he might be able to recognize that others don't think like him, and can not always be trusted, just because he loves them.

True that the podsters can survive here by being hybrids, but T-t and Nasedo seemed to be pure aliens and survived quiet well, even diddling the natives.

If the skins can't live here without their "skins", why do they want Earth?

What about the theory that the SSers (TicTac and Harding) were mercineries from another planet. If they have the ability to adapt to an Earth environment and whose loyality is won by $$$, then the SSer may be 3rd parties in the conflict just to make a buck or two.

As far as Atherton's book. I thought the "Among Us" book was lies. He cooked up lies to through off a false trail. Isn't that what Hal Carver eluded too also?

It is possible that the Skins want Earth for reasons other than colonization. It could be a handy location for storage. (Wasn't Harding in the storage business anyway?). Perhaps Earth, although seemly in the middle of nowhere for location, does have something that benefits strategic operations. Perhaps it is near a "weak spot" in the time dimension. (I really rather hope not, I don't want anymore time travel stories that would and or create a paradox.)

Even if these questions get answered, I am sure I will find new Q's to spin off.

And Palomino, re the wake up call for Max on trust: I am expecting for Max to notice that Liz is not happy and not into being with Kyle around the same time he realizes Tess does not love him. This will lead to his figuring out what a GREAT sacrifice Liz made and that she really can be trusted.

The way she juxtaposed the statements made me think the granilith would give them the power to last longer. Maybe they could shapeshift with it. It's possible the shapeshifter(s) we have seen was/were drawing on it's power.

If Vilandra feel in love with the skins' leader, that suggests to me they are members of the same species, though maybe separate subspecies/races. Conceivably the ability to shapeshift is one distinguishing characteristic. (Which would be a different way to account for why the skins don't shapeshift.) Unlike physical appearance is with us.

Flashes:
Um...I thought that Liz didn't receive any flashes, only Max did, though I could be wrong. But even though he was joking, it would be REALLY bad if Kyle did see flashes of Max Evans naked..

Destiny and the future:
Well, let's all just hope, for Max and Liz's sake,that the future isn't etched in stone. Though, what if Max (I really hope this happens!)falls in love with Liz again? Would the future be changed back to what it was, and will the Earth be destroyed?

Perspective:
I just think that if Liz would have told Max what was going on in the first place, none of this would be happening right now. But it's not too late. Liz could still explain to Max why she resorted to getting "in bed" with Kyle, And then everything would be all right. This is how I see it...There could be the original CC's,(Conventional Couples;M&L, M&M, A&I, K&T)and Max, Isabel, Tess, and Michael can deal with the enemy alien problems, and still have a stable relationship with the people they love.

Conclusion:
Well, how'd I do for my first time?!

Celestial Love

This sounds like different species if their DNA's are different. (OK, I'll quit ranting on this topic)
BTW, I am giving up on Pierce being an evil alien (Skin).

One thing I'm REALLY ticked about is that they killed off Nasedo so early! Even if the writers come to realize that they created another SSer last year, and bring him back, they have destroyed a really cool and helpful character. There are so many loose ends that are not tied up because he is dead, and others that may have also known are dead.
a. Was he the tortured or captured SSer in 1947?
b. Why did he kill Sheila?
c. Why did he put "Sheila" as Tess's mother on her school records?
d. Why didn't he ever look up RD again, especially when he returned to Roswell and had the opportunity? Kind of rude, especially when he had helped the podsters before and could be helpful again.
e. What did the cave drawings mean? Who were they meant for?
f. Did he know he was diddling a skin? and why was he sleeping with her? Did she know she was killing "Pierce" as well as Harding/protector? Who was using who?
g. What brought him back to Roswell last season, was it Michael's signal or was that someone else we saw? Was it him that left the symbol in "Into the Woods" ?
h. What caused the crash? Pilot error? storm? damaged craft from an encounter with a Skin ship or just trying to escape Twilo?
i. What would he think if he knew Liz had gotten a flash from him? Why did the flash include Sheila - guilt, hate, love?
j. Why had he missed the hatching, and if he was supposed to leave for them for humans to raise, then why did he take Tess?
k. Why didn't he tell the podsters more?
l. Why didn't he try to train Max in powers or leadership? If it wasn't his job, then whose? Why?
m. Why did he kill Atherton, and what was their relationship? Was the book a fake, about the SSers, or the Skins?
n. How did he and T-t(?) get the pods to the chamber from the base?
o. How did he know Tess was taking Max to the podchamber that night? He seemed to be part of the wall, but did not "shift" when he appeared. Did he teleport in? Wouldn't it be handy to share this secret with the podsters?
p. How much did he know about their past lives and if so, why didn't he share this info to help Max if he was so protective of him? His only job was to keep them alive(so they could grow up as intended?), but vital info was kept from them(Max especially) that could help them keep themselves alive.
q. Did he collect all those antiques, or did they belong to a real Ed Harding that he killed and replaced?
r. If he kept moving around with Tess in tow, did he have to change her name each time? or is this what he always called her? How did he come up with a name?
s. Was his mate on the ship? Was he supposed to raise two or four(now that we know there were four more podsters) of the children with a female that was killed?
t. Did he know about the book in the library? Did he tell Tess where it was?
u. Did he approve of Tess using her powers to freak out Max in those sexual fantasies?
v. Did he raise her to think sex was no big deal, or did he raise her to be faithful to her future husband/king? She is flirting with Kyle!
w. What exactly was his job with the army and why were those military men at his house?
x. Was he really wearing no clothes the whole time? If so, how did he disrobe for the CW?
y. If he didn't want the podsters to know certain things, why couldn't he have at least told the sheriff a few things he might need to know to protect the podsters while Harding was away? And if there is another protector, why not tell them about it incase something happened to him?
z. What were the artifacts? Orbs, necklace, granolith, etc.

I will be EXTREMELY TICKED if Tic-tac does not reappear and answer all the questions. It will look like the writers didn't know what they were doing, and killed off a character just because they didn't know how to answer the questions. How convenient.

What a great list though! I sure appreciate you sharing it!

Mommy was wrong. "You will know them only by the evil within." Golly, they are all flakes!

BTW My opinion change on the EA statis of Pierce: If Pierce was a Skin, I think M/Mi/JV would have noticed when they got rid of the body, and I don't think now that Pierce would have had a skeleton w/skull, if he was an alien Skin. Another biggy is that Pierce did not ask about the granolith - although this might be explained away by his desire to get the other orb(they might tell him), and the fact he might have had too many human agents around him and could not tip his hand. Anyhow, he has been dead too long for writers to worry about him now.

So the Granolith is Max's Excalibur to our Once and Future king?

And he won't be king until he learns how to use it's power, pulling the sword out of the stone. Liz knows more about it than Max, but Future Max did mention Serena.

Gee, Max, what a big Granolith you have!

Kzinti_Killer, I envy your library, but I don't envy the amount of space it must take up. I really like the idea of the healing crystals as "artificial amplifiers." Are you thinking that they amplify brain waves? If so, I think we could be on the road to a unified theory on the operation of the alien artifacts.

Palomino, great list of questions. I just wanted to offer another spin on the relationship between ss, skin and podster. The whole social insect analogy has been thrown around before, but I think it bears some re-examination.

I find it interesting that Nacedo was male in his human forms and that the skins up to this point have been female. This statement becomes useless after tomorrow's episode, but hang in there. What if the shapeshifters were a male warrior caste, and the skins were the worker caste (all female in ants and bees, but both sexes in termites, and all are sterile). What if part, or all, of the working caste (skins) of their world united because they had nothing to lose but their chains (to paraphrase ) Everyone, think ANTZ. In the uprising, the working cast (skins) killed the next generation of royalty, but the "queen" survived. [In social insects, the queen, as parent of all sterile castes would have the genes of all the castes - so it's not such a stretch to speculate that she could display the traits of the warrior cast.] Mommy dearest (the queen) can shapeshift, but the skins can't. Anyway, Mommy dearest wants to insure the royal lineage, so she duplicates the essences, creates hybrids, yada yada yada, all with the aid of her loyal subjects, the warrior caste (ssers), who did not participate in the worker uprising. I don't want to carry the insect analogy too far, but I still like the civil war idea.

quote:Originally posted by Palomino:

6. The CW (and Skin) said Valondra was a different race, her kind didn't rule anymore, she betrayed her race, etc.

In a social insect context, maybe race and caste are synonymous.

SF

FMax time travelling back to the night that M/L would have made love is to prevent the "young love" path of life. If we look at life as having many paths and each decision illiminating certain paths then FMax could have just changed the "Romeo and Juliet" scenario. Liz was taken aback when FMax revealed that they were married at 19. Yes, she still loves Max but with so many complications to the alien part of the story she, like the rational person she is, she would distance herself so that whole other race of beings aren't wiped out.

We have to believe that the writers will still keep the Max and Liz together. So, they now have to work towards each other yet again, hopefully, on a different level.

Palomino, great set of questions / issues! I get the feeling that Nasedo didn't know a whole lot or wasn't told. Maybe he was a foot solider or body guard. Remember, he couldn't make the two communicators work in "Destiny".

SF: You should try dusting them all. And that isn't the half of it. There are several hundred history volumes, emphasis on the military. Books on every -ology and -ism you can imagine. I'm a science freak, and a space flight enthusiast. I collect old almanacs, and there is the collecting of national Geographics. My paternal Grandfather started it....in 1903. *g*

Anyway, this thread is about to go belly up in favor of the Harvest, so I'll be brief. I'm more than half an engineer (partial degree that I never got to finish), so I tend to think like one. I try to put myself in the shoes of the aliens who sent the expidition. I have no idea of what their constraints and time and materiel were, but given the Granolith I'd say they had a lot of leeway.

If I were sending off such an expidition I'd want several things from the tools/equipment that I sent. 1)Redundancy, 2)Versatility, and 3)Security.

For 1&2 I want the "Swiss Army Knife" effect. I have to cover my bets against various failure modes. So I want equipment that is easy to use, performs multiple functions, and can be used with a minimum of coaching. As for 3, I want equipment that nosy locals might see or get their hands on, to be unusable by them. And I want it to look totally (or nearly so) innocuous. Like a rock, or a lump of common rock crystal.

I know that most posters believe there are some meta-physics involved here, but to me meta-physics are simply phenomena that science hasn't quantified yet. I look forward to talking over tonight's ep when that thread starts. There's some real meat in this one. And some real interesting surmises to be drawn.

I know that most posters believe there are some meta-physics involved here, but to me meta-physics are simply phenomena that science hasn't quantified yet.
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Hi Kzinti_Killer, I liked all your comments. The one I qouted reminds me of Le Guin's The Dispossessed, where an alien physicist comes up with a unified temporal theory using a physics that includes metaphysics, philosophy and ethics.

Time to put this thread to rest.

SF