1. ALIENS, PODS, AND GESTATION PERIODS. Maria's monologue gave us a tidbit of information concerning the pods. Previous to this we have speculated as to when those pods were originally set up and exactly how long our aliens were gestating in them. Tonight, we finally find out--our aliens were in the pods the entire time...or at least I think that's the implication we were given. Did you hear it that way?

2. RESIDUAL MEMORIES FROM OTHER LIFETIMES. We are treated to a sweet dreamer moment when Max "remembers" or has a memory flash of a previous timeline--a timeline inhabitied by the Future Max who is no more.

SF has frequently played with the notion of timelines and parallel time streams. But we were lead to believe that by altering Tess' attitude, the future of this timeline was actually changed (Future Max"disappeared"). Does it seem credible to you that this would leave "residual" memories in Max? Or do we have something like overlapping time streams here? [NOTE: this is probably far beyond our writers' SF sophistication...but is an interesting idea to play with anyway.]

3. THE ETHICS OF ALIEN POWERS. Did it disturb anyone else that Michael was very conscious of the "taintedness" of the money in Roswell, but as soon as he got to Vegas his moral boundaries seem to vanish? Was Michael using his powers to win? And was it simply "for fun?" Or am I being too much of a spoil sport?

4. THE ALIENS THAT GAMBLE TOGETHER, STICK TOGETHER. It was a nice Hallmark moment at the end between Max and Michael...but I miss the human friends being included. I wonder if we will see more of the complimentary dimension of our foursome. Do you think we are being prepared for this?

Not a whole lot of SF tonight, but then--it was kind of nice to see our aliens acting like youth instead of superheros.

What did you think folks?

LSS

I heard it the same way.. they were in the pods since 1947.. that made me go hmmmmm...

Now explain this one to me.. did Max say that when he saw that flash it was like it was something that was supposed to happen?? I havent rewatched the epi yet... is this just another hidden power of his?? Premonition?? what do you think??

Ps... Micheal seemed to be back to his angry self... acting out... he has not been like this since last season..

and what about Liz almost telling Max the truth...

OMG... yes... but I also think that all of the second season has been dominated by MM.. except for EOTW.. and thats ok... but being a dreamer, I'm hoping that the tail end of this Roswell season brings them together...

Max's vision - I think he told Liz it was like a memory or something. That would imply to me that maybe a bit of FMax still lives in him. And that vision had to be the most beautiful and heartbreaking thing I've seen in ... ages.

Anyone else notice how Max and Michael were YELLING about the use of powers and healing in the jail cell?

This is for anyone who is not able to see the epi tonight.... This is Maria singing at the lounge in the end...heehee

Max says "It was like a memory flash of something that really happened."

Let the interpretations begin...

Anyone else notice how Max and Michael were YELLING about the use of powers and healing in the jail cell?

Yessssss! omb what was that about? they were yelling about powers and their vegas plans everywhere. Maria overhearing Tess and Kyle in the hallway! everyone could hear.
& Michael using his powers in public (melting the locker and the craps table.)
that annoys me when they do that. i'm always like shhhhh!

Sorry, when I came back I had 415 emails... Still behind..

Anway, regarding ethics, I thought it ironic that Michael refered to the money haunting him. This is what Max said about the ghost in ARCC. And Michael's need to do something matched Max's need to do something to restore the balance.

Perhaps these hauntings are the physical manifestations of alien guilt... I don't believe that ethics really play a part in the alien's decision making process. It seems that at these times their needs to act or do something instinctively overwhelm them.

I was however bothered by Michael's sudden ability to control his powers. How'd he do that anyway. And let's not overlook the psuedonym's either - Rob Roy, Marguarita Salt, Shirley Temple??? Is Michael taking a bartending class to improve his culinary talents?

This could be why the episode reminds me of blind date... The mixed drink reference reminds me of how Max and Kyle drank hard liquor together.

just another example of the sloppy writing this season. they were so paranoid about saying anything in public last season, and now they're just telling the whole world!

*sigh*

-sarah

~Joje *)

I, too, thought it was very similar to 'Blind Date' in its tone and lack of responsibility. But to me, it was one of the better episodes in blending the podsters use of powers with everyday life. Michael must be growing up, he actually admitted to being "haunted." Though, running away to Las Vegasland, seems a bit like searching for Nasedo and not quite finding what you expected.

I was intrigued that Michael has such fine and delicate control of his powers that he can "alter" the dice to fall on the numbers that he wants them to do. I didn't think he was one for subtlety...more the heavy lifting type. I think Michael wanted to get caught, that's what the dream foreshadowed..."no more hiding."

I thought Max's "memory flash" was very telling. We've speculated that the podsters on their homeworld have the ability to "alter" time, to go back and forth. The other possibility is that Max had a "mini-flash" from Liz about their future together. He read Liz's mind but didn't process the image until he saw the couple echoing what Liz knew was one of their possible futures.

By the way, I had read that the WB was going to play around with the introduction to Roswell for "newbies." I thought Majandra/Maria did an incredibly awesome job on the "tour" of Roswell's teens.

Time for bed...I'm going to dream about that "flash" of Liz and Max...for the next month.

Jamethiel
"I shall believe."

I may post more later but here's what I can see right now....

Max and Michael were yelling? Well what about Liz and Maria calmly discussing F-Max and the wedding that never was...in normal voices...in class? Or for that matter a Vegas trip? In your average highschool, the walls have freakin' ears.

I found Max's "memory flash" consistent with quite a few SF stories over the years. A part of the genre seems to beleive that, in a case of multiple world lines, strange things that happen...like deja vu, voices from nowhere, items found other than where you put them...all result from crossing lines. Deja vu is a flicker of memory from another "you" elsewhere. Ditto the "voices". Lost items are a more macroscopic manifestation. Say LSS prime (this universe) drops the car keys on the bedroom dresser, and LSS alpha (next universe) drops them on the dining room table. A weakness in spacetime occurs and *pop*! LSS prime is hunting for the keys, and finds them on the dining room table...where LSS knows they shouldn't be. Ditto for LSS alpha and the dresser. Etc, etc.

Star Trek used the "deja vu from alternate time lines" theme a few times. So did Babylon 5.

The question is now...will Max's interest be sufficiently piqued to explore the issue? And what is the probable fallout?

I'm still bugged by the fact that Liz is holding out from the Podsters the fact that the Granolith can be used for time travel.

But she doesn't know HOW it's used for time travel, so how useful would the information really be?

Michael's Powers - I think he's been pretty consistent at using his powers this season -- witness his bashing in the mental hospital window, locking the children's hospital door in ARCC, sucking the air out of the bomb shelter, etc. I think now that he's away from Hank, and once Tess started to give him "lessons", he's started to gain some confidence and that's all he really needed to be able to do things consistently.

Hauntings -- good point, Qfanny about the similarities between ARCC and VLV.

i knew that it reminded me of another eppie. i just couldnt figure out which one. thanks for reminding me.

ashley

Hi Jamethiel!

Interesting comment. So as far as SF"explanations" for that "vision" we might entertain the following options:

1) RESIDUAL ECHOES: Somehow what WOULD have happened is bleeding into what is NOW happening since the timeline was changed, OR

2) TIMELINE CROSSOVER: Changing the future caused another timeline to exist parallel to the original one (now we have two--one in which Max marries Liz at the Elvis chapel and later the world is in danger and one in which that danger is avoided by Max not marrying Liz at the Chapel). For some reason these two timelines have "crossed" and that explains Maz's vision.

3) LIZ'S MEMORIES: The vision originates with Liz who telepathically sends it to Max unintentionally. Since she was alread thinking of it before, then the "connection" she still shares with Max kicks in...although I can't remember her doing this before can you? Would it be the equivalent to Izzy and Tess' mind warping?

4. PRECOGNITION: Someone suggested that what Max saw was the future in THIS timeline. That is, even though this timeline has been altered, the marriage (at the Elvis chapel) will STILL occur. This would correlate with SF time stories that insist that time is not that easy to alter. Once seemingly "altered" it struggles to return to its previous direction.

Interesting speculation all! Wherever we go with this it was sure nice to see M/L together again. I hope we get a nice eppy soon with them, my BD and SH tapes are definitly showing signs of wear!

LSS

Qfanny—Michael can control his powers because he has been practicing consistently over the summer and this season. Because he has to be this soldier he has been consciously developing his powers.

I agree that the WB did a great job with Maria’s introduction! I thought is was a nice way of changing “Previously on Roswell.”

3) LIZ'S MEMORIES: The vision originates with Liz who telepathically sends it to Max unintentionally. Since she was alread thinking of it before, then the "connection" she still shares with Max kicks in...although I can't remember her doing this before can you? Would it be the equivalent to Izzy and Tess' mind warping?[/B]

Well, Liz did not "see" anything during her visit from Future Max. Somehow Max has come upon this knowledge on his own. Whether a form of deja vu or just fantasy/wish fulfillment (deja wish), he received a clear vision of the two of them, complete with opera length gloves.

Perhaps on a cellular level he has knowledge of all the experiences his soul/mind/body has, in any timeline or planet. Tess implied she had memories of a time when he loved her -- the same thing. Max had a memory of something that hasn't happened yet to present Max. He knows that this is an experience his "essence" will have or has had. Who knows how advanced the aliens' command of time is. We've often asked, why did it take x years for the RF to emerge as six-year-olds? Possibly for the same reason; because the timing has been planned to the letter, and the Twilonians knew what the conditions on Earth would be like when they emerged. Perhaps it's all been scheduled far in advance. Future Max came as a messenger from another time, because they knew already what the future would bring. It's good evidence that it's all been routed according to plan, only Max falling in love with Liz was not part of the original plan. Or was it, and it just didn't turn out the way it was supposed to? (Not expressing myself particularly clearly this morning, sorry.)

Yes, I was bothered by why the DuPree money would feel so "tainted" to Michael (and then he tries to rack up even more winnings). He certainly has a gift for self-sabotage, doesn't he? However, having no impulse control is part of his charm (okay, most of it). Though his physical powers have advanced to the point he can tinker with IDs, he still lacks the emotional powers to use the physical powers wisely. Not to mention the emotional control required to resist decking a hotel security guard. In many ways, he is better at mastering his human emotions, by organizing Maria's lounge debut to show her he cares, than he is at mastering his alien emotions. And maybe that was the true source of the guilt -- that by virtue of being an alien, he was given an unwanted gift. On the human side, he seems to have come to grips with why a girl like Maria would love him, and is able to reciprocate. Last year that was the key; him developing the human side. Now it's the alien side that's coming to the forefront.

I have more ramdom thoughts but I must get back to billable hours. Cheers!

1. I thought that Michael's cheating at the craps table wasn't really out of character. I think that the Dupree money was really haunting him, mostly because of his first time familial feelings for Laurie. It probably seemed like a wrong against her (since in reality it was her money left to her by grandpa). I think that he probably was just acting out because his get away wasn't really what he expected. He didn't want anyone along except for him and Max. He probably wanted to get back to the way things were when they were kids, before Liz was shot. When neither he nor Max questioned their relationship. Before all the tension. And when that didn't happen he acted out by cheating because he knew that Max would not approve. I think he did it on purpose to force Max to quit acting like a 'robot' (I think that's what he said).

2. The wedding flash. I think that both theories are very interesting. At first I thought that Liz had somehow sent him the image, since I'm sure it was all she could think about since the trip began. But it didn't have the same look and feel as any of the other flashes that either of them ahve gotten. But I like LSS theory that it may be something like Tess' mind warping, since I think as they all mature they will probably gain each other's powers. So now we just have to wait for Tess to start dreamwaking and Isabel to start astral projecting!

But the parallel timeline theory is also a good one. I think that the residual memory would be strongest in the physical space that it occurred in the other timeline. The only problem I have with this theory is that I thought they were 19 when they eloped (according to FM). And I would believe the residual memory more if it had occurred during the same time period in this timeline. Did that make sense? Which makes me go for the Liz mind warp as a more plausible theory.

3. I also noticed all the yelling, screaming and gossiping about their Alien status and their Vegas trip. I thought it was a bit much, but I let myself suspend my disbelief on that one for awhile.

4. This has nothing to do with Sci Fi, but the question has been asked many times about where all the parents are, that I wanted to ask where all the friends are? I know that none of them were too popular except for Kyle and Isabel. But what about their friends? Valenti mentioned talking the Kyle's friends when they all wound up missing, but does he even hang out with anyone not part of the Alien Club anymore? I haven't seen him, not even walking with someone else during school. And what about Isabel? Wasn't she miss popular? Don't their friends wonder about them? Especially if Kyle is not even playing football anymore, which they haven't mentioned one way or the other on the show. Anyway, just thought I would see if anyone else noticed that.

4. (This is again off the SF track but...)And finally, I just wanted to say that I LOVED the way that Valenti yelled out "TESS!!, DON'T MAKE ME COME BACK IN THERE!!!" I thought it was extremely cute and another great way to make Tess feel like family (right after she said she was glad to be an orphan!). I also loved the last scene where Max and Michael are walking away with their coffee and they both turn in unison to stare at the pretty girls walking by. Just soooo teenage (or really any age) human boyish!

The actions in Michaels dream matched how FMax said that the Podsters had died. I think they (TPTB) were trying to say that he had the dream because of the tainted money. But, I think that the dream was more of a vision brought on by Michael being shot in HTOHL.

When Max had the vision of the wedding, they both just seemed to fit into some kind of time loop or something, IMHO.

Wouldn't it have made more sense if Michael felt he was being haunted by the money, to have given it to charity rather than using it for personal gain. Like many of you, I thought it was rather disgusting that he cheated at the tables. Of course I'm one of those "boring" Liz like people who can't actually lie or cheat.

I must have missed something, but I always assumed that the podsquad had been in the pods the entire time, so last night's info didn't surprise me.

As to the wedding visions (which I loved so much)... In Wipeout, Courtney said, "Time exists in multiple subset dimensions on our planet. Nicholas must have a technology to impose one or more of these here." I'm thinking that the timeline from EOTW still exists in one of these multiple subset dimenstions and that is where Max's memory came from." Perhaps there is some hold over from when Nicholas messed with time before or perhaps he is playing around with it now. On a side note, I loved that Max looked so happy when he was telling Liz about the vision.

I thought that Max also seemed to pause and ponder at the arcade, when Liz first asked the question about who would want to get married at an Elvis chapel.

One of the Sci Fi powers that I didn't see mentioned yet is Michael's ability to change all of the ID's so easliy without even looking at them. Oddly enough I found that harder to swallow than loading the dice. lol And was that picture in Max's wallet of he and Liz?

On the volume of the alien conversations, I felt that they wouldn't even be noticed in a place like Vegas. Folks would have thought they were just more strange cases.

This is OT but what was the reason for that nasty comment made about Canadians? We're such sweeties. Grrr argh!

Also OT, I loved hearing Valenti yell, "Tess! Dont' make me come back in there for you." (or words to that effect) at the end. If she ever worried about being part of the family, she should know better now. That was priceless.

And Qfanny, we RBIers'll have to disect those alias names over on the Liz Mythology or Signs & Symbols threads (unless someone wants to do it here).

One of the Sci Fi powers that I didn't see mentioned yet is Michael's ability to change all of the ID's so easliy without even looking at them. Oddly enough I found that harder to swallow than loading the dice. lol

This is OT but what was the reason for that nasty comment made about Canadians? We're such sweeties. Grrr argh!

Also OT, I loved hearing Valenti yell, "Tess! Dont' make me come back in there for you." (or words to that effect) at the end. If she ever worried about being part of the family, she should know better now. That was priceless.
[/B]

Hi Arctic Lurker!

A few comments on the above:

Gestation/pods: some folk argued for either: 1) a colony of long standing, or 2) Nasedo/scientist who, after crashing, had to set up the cave and get the DNA--and took his time to do this. Both of these explanations often argued that the gestation rate of the pods was shorter than 40+ yrs.

Michael's powers: Yeah--these are almost bordering on magic now. I ought to hire Tess to do my own teaching--apparently she's a whiz!

Canadian comment: What do you want to bet that that was an insider joke? Brendon is not shy about his pride in being a Canadian.

Valenti yelling at Tess: I agree--it was a touching moment that he felt comfortable enough to do it and that she, in turn, didn't even think about resisting. I'm getting to like Tess--sigh, they just have to keep her away from Max (and I can't say anymore about that right now...too spoiled.

LSS

Hi Arctic Lurker!

A few comments on the above:

Gestation/pods: some folk argued for either: 1) a colony of long standing, or 2) Nasedo/scientist who, after crashing, had to set up the cave and get the DNA--and took his time to do this. Both of these explanations often argued that the gestation rate of the pods was shorter than 40+ yrs.

Hi rightbackatcha!

Now that your mention it, I do recall the varying interps. I haven't been spending enough time on the Sci Fi thread since we learned of the intro of the gandarium, and so don't know what's been discussed about how that relates to past theories. I have had to revise my own thoughts a bit since then. One thing remains the same though...I felt developing those enhanced future human powers, is probably what required the long gestation. Now I guess I'll have to assume that the mixing of the two types of DNA under the auspices of the gandarium, also had a lot to do with that ultra long period required for development. I assumed that Maria's use of the 40 years was simply rounding the number to make it more poetic.

quote:Michael's powers: Yeah--these are almost bordering on magic now. I ought to hire Tess to do my own teaching--apparently she's a whiz!

I too could use Tess to preform some miracles in the classroom. I don't seem to be getting very far imparting my Math wisdom on my students. lol I hope we don't see too much more magic. I think if you're going to alter molecular structure you should be concentrating on one thing at a time.[/b][/quote]

quote:Canadian comment: What do you want to bet that that was an insider joke? Brendon is not shy about his pride in being a Canadian.

I love inside jokes. Joss Whedon used to do "shoutouts" to the regulars at the Bronze Posting Board now and then.

quote:Valenti yelling at Tess: I agree--it was a touching moment that he felt comfortable enough to do it and that she, in turn, didn't even think about resisting. I'm getting to like Tess--sigh, they just have to keep her away from Max (and I can't say anymore about that right now...too spoiled.

Also among the spoiled. Nuff said. *le sigh* I agree that Tess has become quite endearing, particuarly as a member of the Valenti family unit. It has changed her completely, and also has enhanced the personalities of Kyle and Jim. I'm glad though that there is still tension between she and Liz.

quote:origianlly posted by shapeshifter:
ArcticLurker, in the Michael World, giving to charity is not the way to go--I think he is still of the mind set that he had it rough so why should some other orphans have it easy.

You are so very right. He can be so sweet and thoughtful, yet sometimes he's such a pain that he makes me crazy. He is still deeply into self-pity. I know that Liz gets accused of being whiny and yet I find Michael and Iz to be the most self indulgent whiners of all. lol On the other hand I would not want to see him change, just as I would not have the "boring" Max and Liz change. Their differences compliment each other and make for a most interesting dynamic. I think that is the most important thing they learned on their road trip.

quote:I was thrilled with this part... for a number of reasons not the least of which was that it meant my favorite theory was a dream come true, namely that Young Max recognized Young Liz because he "remembered" her.

Would you mind refreshing my memory on your favorite theory? It sounds really interesting.

I think that Liz's "powers" might be the ability to receive and send thoughts telepathically (as seen in MitC). But since this power is new to her she might receive the thoughts and images subliminally. This would explain her flashes in SH.
If this is the case than it is possible that she received thoughts from FMax while they were dancing (he must have been thinking about their wedding at this time) and when Liz and Max talked about people getting married at the Elvis chapel she could have sent these subliminal images to Max, who then accessed them from his subconscious when he saw the couple who got out of the taxi.
Are these thoughts crazy? Yes, most likely, but now that I have shared them with others maybe I can get some sleep. Thanks for letting me share.

Would you mind refreshing my memory on your favorite theory? It sounds really interesting. Just that the reason little Max recognized little Liz was because it was going to happen and, being of Alien Essence, he was able to "remember" the future. I also thought that maybe this was due to Future Max having seen the future.

I vote for #4!!

Hi SaveFerrisBueller!

Welcome to the SF of [episode] threads! No your thoughts are not crazy! The question might be raised, however, as to whether Max is actually "remembering" or simply receiving an image that Liz is thinking about. Liz knows she and FM got married. Whether or not she actually "saw" the event may not make any difference. If she was thinking about it then she could have "mind warped" unintentionally. Or--as you are suggesting, perhaps she did "see" the event and is remembering it.

Isn't speculation fun? Wouldn't I like just one hour with the writers to clear up all the loose ends? You betcha!

LSSt

You and me both! Wouldn't my dreamer heart be finally at peace!!!

LSS

LSS

How about this? Time does struggle to get back on course. Liz spends hours playing pinball in front of the Elvis chapel, which she never would have done if Future Max hadn't told her about it. She and Max have a "moment" talking about marriage in the Elvis chapel, so WHEN (a dreamer to the core) they do decide to get married, they will have a nostalgic desire to return there. And dance all night to "I Shall Believe"

This exactly illustrates why time travelers are not supposed to tell anyone ANYTHING about the future timeline, because there are unintended side effects from even the most innocent bits of information.

LSS

Has anyone ever seen 12 Monkeys? Bruce Willis kept going back in time trying to stop the initial spread of a massive epidemic, but in the end you realize that Future Bruce was part of the cause of the spread in the first place! Just like Future Max may have been the cause of Present Max and Liz's future wedding. Did that make any sense?

This brings up another possiblity. If the inhabitants of Max's home planet could have been aware on some level of the need to create the Hybrid royal four. To them the Destiny book may have seemed to have more meaning than we give it credit for.

Does that make any sense?

This brings up another possiblity. If the inhabitants of Max's home planet could have been aware on some level of the need to create the Hybrid royal four. To them the Destiny book may have seemed to have more meaning than we give it credit for.

Does that make any sense?"

To elaborate just a bit more on my earlier post, I'm theorizing that certain events are anchor points or pivotal points in time, such as Max and Liz marrying, around which other events are more fluid such as Future Max's apocalypse.

It may be that all inhabitants of the home world see time differently, but perhaps not as well or clearly. Perhaps proto-Max was the most powerful as Nicholas had implied. It could be a useful ability to have in a ruler and could justify the effort put in restoring Max/Zan as sort of a King/Seer. This is not unlike the idea of a Ruler/Religious Leader theory put forth elsewhere on the Forums. Or maybe he forsaw his own death or some need to become part human and wed Liz for some future benefit to his people? Begins to sound a little bit like we're moving into DUNE territory.

Zanbehr, are you suggesting that King Zan could have been the one to come up with the destiny plan in advance of his death? If so, I wonder if he fully explained the reason for the plan to those he left to carry it out. An interesting theory.

Yes, I guess that is what I'm suggesting. And depending on what he hoped to accomplish he may or may not have told anyone else the full reasons if he was even sure himself. His precognition of the need to act may not be something he fully understood. Seeing the "future" is such a tricky thing.

Still it's just a theory unless the writers do something with it on screen.

It especially troubles me because the Hybrid Chronicles aired during the sweeps, and I would think interchanging fantasy with science fiction would cause more confusion than it would broaden the audience.

Reggie or some other scientist to the rescue with an explanation?

Scientific Rationalization squad to the rescue!
Someone check the episode; I don't have the tape handy. Did he say air, or oxygen? If Michael only sucked the oxygen out of the room, that would have left the other 79% of the air (which is nitrogen, etc.). Plenty to float a balloon-creature, etc.

I'm thrilled by some of the ideas above - - particularly the one about King Zan having arranged all this with pre-cog of his own doom!

And I'm buying into the wonderful LSS idea of pre-cog for the wedding vision.

It really troubled me, especially because in the story told by FM, their wedding in the Chapel was an elopement - - i.e., no tux, no big white satin production number gown. As Liz said, "Oh, so we didn't have a real wedding. . ." And what Max saw would be a teenager girl's fantasy of a "real wedding".

So if Max were seeing a shadow of another timeline, how would he see this? It never happened that way . . . yet!

That explains it nicely.

Some things that troubled me:
1) Maria's intro to newbies. Coming right at the beginning of a 6-8 week hiatus? We're getting *NO* more Roswell until the new eps air in April. And this episode *wasn't even advertized.*

2) Tainted Money. A great plot cliche, it nevertheless should be applied according to package directions: the money must actually be tainted. Since Michael didn't betray Laurie, but rather stayed loyal, it wasn't tainted. And how could giving the money straight to the mafia make Michael feel "cleansed"?

3) If they went to LV to get *rid* of the money, why cheat in a casino in an attempt to win more? How does that help? Why not have an orgy in the room like any *normal* high school kids?

4) Michael needed a break? From what, sitting poolside, stuffing himself, harassing the staff, and lounging in a monogrammed bathrobe?

5) Why did Maria pester Liz to come along and be her gal pal - - and then dump her?

6) Why would Tess hang with Liz - - uninvited - - when she could be hanging all over one or more of the guys, at the tables, playing Lady Luck?

7) Why would Michael name *himself* Dr. Love, when Love seems to be the last thing on his mind?

In defense of Liz, regarding not telling the podsters about the Granilith and time travel: She would run into the same difficulty as when she tried to warn Max before he left for NYC. If she tells them about time travel, then she's got to tell them h o w she knows. And with no possibility of explaining how it's done, what good can it do? She hasn't even met Serena yet, and Serena's the one who figured out how to do it.

Max:
"Gee, I'm sorry Michael, that I tried to prevent you from sinking us with TPTB with another Stupid Road Trip (didn't Michael just *get back* from a road trip?); from cheating the Mafia and attracting exactly the kind of attention we can least afford - - thereby endangering us all. What a Killjoy I am! You're right to hate me unreasonably and treat me unfairly at every turn - - because of the pain of your childhood, which was somehow my fault, too."

This season, Michael is always right, according to the writers, and Max is always wrong. I suspect it has far more to do with the "cherry colas and high school fantasies" of the writers than with anything implicit in the character dynamics.

Michael needed a break? From his previous stay at Club Dupree? If we think *Valenti* was furious, I wouldn't want to hear Amy when she finds out about this new excursion!

If anyone deserves an escapade, a "road trip", it's Max! After everything he's been through - - with flying colors, and no credit from anyone - - his big breakout "fling" was to go to a terminally ill children's ward and nearly kill himself by healing so many desperate children.

Yup, Max has just *so* much to atone for!

The only question for which I can offer an answer is this one:

quote:5) Why would Tess hang with Liz - - uninvited - - when she could be hanging all over one or more of the guys, at the tables, playing Lady Luck?

My answer would be that she had been kicked out. But wait...she could have gone back and done her mind warp thing on the guard. Hmmmm, guess I can't answer that one either.

Like you, I also wondered about the wedding dress. I got the distince impression in EOTW that it was a simple elopement, done without benefit of wedding finery. That made me think that this was not the wedding from Future Max's time line. Aside from Max's vision by the cab, I thought he also looked a trifle perplexed just after the "Not in this lifetime", comment to Liz. I think he recognized something at that moment as well.

**I think he did it on purpose to get Max mad. They have had so much tension since Destiny, that I think Michael is sick of Max always acting like the adult and chastising everyone. Maybe he wanted to make Max so angry that he would stop acting like an adult and do something teenager-like like having a fist fight or something?

4) Michael needed a break? From what, sitting poolside, stuffing himself, harassing the staff, and lounging in a monogrammed bathrobe?

**Yes I agree that he and Maria went a little overboard during HTOHL, but he also walked in on a dead body and was shot in the shoulder. This after having found out that he is an exact clone and has a semi-relative. Maybe he feels guilty about Laurie being 'crazy'. After all it was for Michael's benefit that the "Aliens were after" Grampa Dupree. Maybe this is also why he feels the money is tainted.

6) Why would Tess hang with Liz - - uninvited - - when she could be hanging all over one or more of the guys, at the tables, playing Lady Luck?

**Maybe Tess realizes that she will never be fully integrated into the group unless she finds a way to get along with Liz. I mean while I was watching that scene, she kind insulted Liz but then tried to play it off like she didn't really mean it. And it seemed more of an oops I shouldn't have said that kind of thing. So maybe she is just trying to become friends, especially now that she and Kyle are getting closer. More of her human side is showing, and I'm sure she has the same teenage girl feelings about wanting to be popular and excepted that anybody else does.

7) Why would Michael name *himself* Dr. Love, when Love seems to be the last thing on his mind?

**I don't know why he chose his name to be Dr. Love. Unless it is a drink I have never heard of. But I don't think that Love is the furthes thing from his mind as he did have that really sweet scene with Maria and letting her sing on stage. And for Michael to admit in public that he loves listening to her sing is pretty much a declaration of his love for her! He would never have come close to saying anything like that last season!

Michelle, great questions just wanted to add some of my comments. I agree that the writers were pretty crazy to put that newbie intro onto the last epi before such a long hiatus. It would have been more fitting to be before the hybrid chronicles. Especially since it seemed like they were hyping the chronicles so much.

Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers:
Some things that troubled me:

3) If they went to LV to get *rid* of the money, why cheat in a casino in an attempt to win more?

**I think he did it on purpose to get Max mad. They have had so much tension since Destiny, that I think Michael is sick of Max always acting like the adult and chastising everyone. Maybe he wanted to make Max so angry that he would stop acting like an adult and do something teenager-like like having a fist fight or something?

4) Michael needed a break? From what, sitting poolside, stuffing himself, harassing the staff, and lounging in a monogrammed bathrobe?

**Yes I agree that he and Maria went a little overboard during HTOHL, but he also walked in on a dead body and was shot in the shoulder. This after having found out that he is an exact clone and has a semi-relative. Maybe he feels guilty about Laurie being 'crazy'. After all it was for Michael's benefit that the "Aliens were after" Grampa Dupree. Maybe this is also why he feels the money is tainted. ...Good points, stargaze. Also, a big thing to consider is that Michael had a dysfunctional childhood that would tend to leave him self-centered since he had to think of his own needs or else nobody else would. Max, OTH, had the example of putting another's needs ahead of one's own.

And on the newbie intro, I think it's a good idea but that should have been started earlier. I got my mom to watch ARCC over Christmas vacation and she was rather lost, asking "is that one an alien?" and missing important dialog in the process.

plumeria- You are so right. I noticed that too. The entire group was yelling about their plans and their powers.

That was interesting that Michael named HIMSELF Dr. Love.

Em

Your wish is my command. The geranium bacteria are the water-bourn form. They "hive up" into a pseudo-crystal, as I explained elsewhere, and can live outside water in this solid form.

When they produce a "fruiting body", as the slime moulds do, that's a different organization of the cells. (It can be anything its genes call for.) In this case, the cells are organized into a bubble or balloon, filled with a buoyant gas. (Hydrogen would do nicely; and methane is common enough as swamp gas, though less buoyant.) The organism itself is the dingus at the bottom of the balloon, where the tenticles are. (Those tenticles may also be hollow structures, partially inflated and buoyant, so as to be strong and weigh less.)

I mentioned this over on CHADs: I'm sufficiently peeved at the non-science, that I'm considering writing a re-treatment of "Skin & Bones": "Skins & Bone". Same plot development, but the science would be thoroughly laundered!

Would anyone like to see such a thing, and where would I post it so they could?

Michelle in Yonkers Haven't seen you posting in quite a while. I've missed your insights. Wonderful comments on VLV, all of which I had considered. You should head over to the CHAD's thread and repost there. As to the Maria opening (which I really did not like), this hiatus thing for the next 6 weeks was pretty sudden (CD was posting a Harvest rerun on 3/5) so I am sure that when VLV was filmed and edited this was not foreseen.

Max:
"Gee, I'm sorry Michael, that I tried to prevent you from sinking us with TPTB with another Stupid Road Trip (didn't Michael just *get back* from a road trip?); from cheating the Mafia and attracting exactly the kind of attention we can least afford - - thereby endangering us all. What a Killjoy I am! You're right to hate me unreasonably and treat me unfairly at every turn - - because of the pain of your childhood, which was somehow my fault, too."

This season, Michael is always right, according to the writers, and Max is always wrong. I suspect it has far more to do with the "cherry colas and high school fantasies" of the writers than with anything implicit in the character dynamics.

Michael needed a break? From his previous stay at Club Dupree? If we think *Valenti* was furious, I wouldn't want to hear Amy when she finds out about this new excursion!

If anyone deserves an escapade, a "road trip", it's Max! After everything he's been through - - with flying colors, and no credit from anyone - - his big breakout "fling" was to go to a terminally ill children's ward and nearly kill himself by healing so many desperate children.

Yup, Max has just *so* much to atone for!

Merlin7 high five's Michelle. YES YES YES! Thank you so much for putting my thoughts into words. This is exactly what I have been thinking and saying since season 2 began.

If real destiny not fullfilled alien civilisation not existed bc humans not leave earth (TEotW not happening).
And if aliens not existed then Max 100% human bc there are not aliens in this time version.
sry.
This is only little moment of insanity.

quote:Originally posted by Hoku:

I agree with everyone on this thread. I love all possibilities. I'm leaning towards the idea of multi-time lines existing at the same time. Whether the lines are crossing because of what happen in "wipe out" or the lines are crossing because the original timeline is trying to correct itself there seems to be multi-time lines existing here. As mentioned earlier "deja vu" falls into the multi-timeline theory, haven't you ever smelled, heard, touched or saw something for the first time and felt a strong connection if not visually, mentally (yes! yes! ! :lol. I think that's what happend with Max, when he went to the cab he touched the door and had the flash. Maybe in the original future this was the cab that Max and Liz used to go to the Elvis Chapel or come to the Hotel after the wedding. Just speculating here.

I think you are totally correct Hoku ! I think parallel universes is like seeing a hologram, it depends form what viewpoint you are looking at it, and they are in fact spherical and I believe connected to everyone else's "lines". Thats why it would in fact be so difficult to change something "in the past" because every action that led to it has a chain reaction. I think that "chain reaction" is "deja vu". Something as simple as that taxi driver's destiny "line" meeting Max's may have re-triggered back that "deja vu" so everything is back on course to how it was supposed to be .

quote:Originally posted by kpm:

Hi Shapeshifter:
Would you mind refreshing my memory on your favorite theory? It sounds really interesting.

Just that the reason little Max recognized little Liz was because it was going to happen and, being of Alien Essence, he was able to "remember" the future. I also thought that maybe this was due to Future Max having seen the future.

Ohh wow! I love your theory Shapeshifter. I think that the soul is the organ that best recognizes the past and the future and that its the only thing that can jump back and forth from realms . Perhaps the ability we have to make sense of the present depends not only on what we have accomplished in the past but what we have committed to accomplish in the future. I don't think Liz sent Max that "vision". I think that "vision" was the parallel life that would have taken place which changed when Liz helped make Max not marry her in Vegas and changed again with their "charriot" (the symbolism obvious in the necklace she was wearing) which was the taxi cab. I also think King Zan helped plan his own earthly past and futures counting on Liz to do her part to help fix what they needed, but its probably a bit harder to change destiny than just telling a boy not to marry a girl Destiny isn't that fickle

Anyway, having rewatched VLV, I think I agree with the precognitive theory. That Max was seeing the future and not the past. First, the wedding clip we saw of Max and Liz did not seem like a shootgun wedding. It looked like there was planning involved, which suggest parental support. Second, Future Max came back to change the future. There is no reason for Present Max to suspect that the timeline was altered by him.

I don't necessarly believe that Liz sent Max the information telepathically. I don't think Liz's powers are so advanced that they would engage without her knowledge, or another podster's help. Max had the vision a good distance away from Liz and his vision was more like a Tessavision than anything else. However, Max interpreted it as being real and factual. The vision therefore probably came from within himself. And I think that is entirely possible. He was upset at the time and had heightened emotion. They are all growing stronger and perhaps visions from the future is what Max will develop... That would be very helpful for a leader, now wouldn't it?

If real destiny not fullfilled alien civilisation not existed bc humans not leave earth (TEotW not happening).
And if aliens not existed then Max 100% human bc there are not aliens in this time version.
sry.
This is only little moment of insanity.

edited 05.03.2001. 21:56

Maybe human physiology can handle a broader range of atmospheres than the other aliens. Whitaker said about the skins, "we don't have the DNA." Maybe there are things about the human body which are more adaptable. All conjecture, of course, since we don't know anything much in spite of the supposed sci-fi slant of this season.

No,no!I think they never been meant go back.
Destiny IS - they mast become humans, they are at home now!REAL Destiny is - break time circle forever...
Ok, Im totally crazy...maybe..

No again, bc if Max became human he can't heal Liz and she gonna die...if there is not something more in the water..
(This is one time version for Roswell in my crazy head.Now Im done with this - I hope forever.)
06.03.2001. 09:06

"Something in the water?"
But remember, Nasedo said (in the White Room episode) that all their powers were "human."

[/B]
But if they break timecirckle no aliens in this timeversion and bc this no hybrids too.
Analogues to them are just peoples whith out futurehumans powers.
But if we belive in miracles of love everything must be happening.(end for dreamers)
sry.gram. Im belive shapeshifter has powers read and understand

4. PRECOGNITION: Someone suggested that what Max saw was the future in THIS timeline. That is, even though this timeline has been altered, the marriage (at the Elvis chapel) will STILL occur. This would correlate with SF time stories that insist that time is not that easy to alter. Once seemingly "altered" it struggles to return to its previous direction.

LSS

I too had a problem with this Memory Flash, but I like your explaination above. I had thought that if M/L eloped off to Vegas, would they have gone to the effort of tracking down a Tux and Gown, and flowers? That seemed, I don't know, a bit inprobable. Not impossible, but it seemed too much of a premeditated effort than a spontaneous pursuit. So along these lines, the M/L in the wedding clothes seemed, to me, to lend itself to the idea of a future event. And remember, FM and FL eloped when thet were 19. In VLV they arn't yet 18. Maybe Max IS seeing his future that is to come. Why it feels like a Memory - I don't know, except that on Antar, time exists in different subset dimensions, as Courtney said, like being in Eastern, Central and Mountain times all at once - that could explain some overlapping memories, the feeling that something had happenned in Eastern, but not yet in Mountain.

But if they break timecirckle no aliens in this timeversion and bc this no hybrids too.
Analogues to them are just peoples whith out futurehumans powers.

Hybrids and alien to my understanding are just more advanced/evolved humans form another planet versus another country, sort to speak. So their original DNA had to be sorted with human DNA so they could survive better on earth, sort of call it a "special coat" that you and I would need to live in a place like Antarctica . You would still be Vihmakass in Antartica, a very very cold one but you'd probably still be able to perform everything you could do anywhere else, think the same, etc.

quote:

But if we belive in miracles of love everything must be happening.(end for dreamers)
sry.gram. Im belive shapeshifter has powers read and understand

LMAO...I agree that Shapeshifter has powers to read and understand too . BUt then if everything is happening then it could also mean good news for dreamers too :confussed:. Parallel universe simply means like the quantum theory where a card standing up right will either fall to the left or to the right. You will only 'see' ONE of these 'worlds', the card either falling left, or falling right but its supposed to be collapsing in both sides. Something in the viewpoint of your reality and the present state of the quantum in the air will make you see the side. We're just trying to pull so the side we see is always the better one.

OMG Vilmakass in NO WAY did I mean because of your grammar . I hope you didn't think I was making fun of you. I thought you meant Shapeshifter had special smart skills because she understands the stuff we post and comes back with such insights to everything . I sometimes post incoherant stuff as do others and she completely understand every idea we throw out. Please forgive me if you thought I meant because of you . I do for most part fully understand what you are trying to say . English isn't my first language either, I made loads and loads of grammar AND spelling mistakes myself so I sympathize and admire you . I just don't have much to add to your ideas sometimes because I just sit and think about it or I just don't have a clue as to the answer to questions about specific episodes. Please forgive me if I made it seem like I meant you , you don't really knwo me and it wouldn't even grace my mind to make fun of anyone.

quote:Here we have "Womans Day",I don't know is this day international or not- anyway :
Happy Womans Day for all womans!

Happy Women's day .
Not much to add today either I just wanted to make sure you knew I meant anything towards you .

So then, if the break in the time circle means there are no "highly evolved" human powers of the "cerebral cortex," would there not be anyone named Max to even try to save Liz?

But we don't definitely know what the 'first' version of time was like in Roswell. And the writers could make as many versions of time as they choose. I think the 'wedding vision' suggests that LSS is right about the 'new' time version trying to go back to the old one. Also, Future Max told Liz that he couldn't tell her too much about the future; I think he did tell her too much (that they got married) and this causes the 'new' version to go back to the 'old' version.

The Granolith had to be here before the crash, wouldn't you think, or it might have been damaged? Or maybe it came in a second shipment, or an earlier one. But perhaps it was used to take the pods far enough into the future to ensure the Skins were not at the top of their game physically. Whoever brought the podsters to earth would probably have known how to use the time travel element of the Granolith.

Or maybe if this multiple time thing is so normal back on the home planet, maybe the ship that brought the podsters had time travel ability also.

Maybe it came backward in time to land on earth, leading the Skins pursuing backward in time also. But once here, the Granolith and Pods were hopped forward in time so that the Skins were unable to find any sign of them for some time (per Whitaker's Diary). And to get away from the FBI too.

You guys are the SF experts, tell me-- is this plausible? Anyone else thought of this already? If it's been discussed to death, sorry!

This might help explain how come if space travel takes so long and if the podsters gestated for so long, the conflict on the home planet seems to still be current. Otherwise Kivar, Larek etc. have to be really really old!

JLinderhof

Unfortunately, with the posting of the wonderful new wealth of http://silverhandprint.com/media material (none of which seems to address time travel), I think our time travel discussions are going to go dormant for a while.

Unfortunately, with the posting of the wonderful new wealth of http://silverhandprint.com/media material (none of which seems to address time travel), I think our time travel discussions are going to go dormant for a while.

We did touch on The Granolyth's time travel abilities when it was proposed that it was a FTL matter transmitter/receiver. (Such a device would have to be active in time, as well as space, due to its FTL nature.) FMax said that its use as a time machine was due to a modification by "Sabrina". Using it as a time machine was described as an afterthought.

On the other hand, your suggestion to use it primarily as a time machine makes good sense. It answers the 50 year time lapse problem, as well as the difficulties with the war being current. Going back 53 years with the space ship (also possible as a side effect of FTL travel), then doubling back toward the future to settle the podsters, is a clever idea.

We still need to address the problem of The Granolyth being unique. Why is there only one? Why didn't Mom (or Kivar) just build another?

I should just rest on my laurels, but first I wanted to bring out a little more the idea that they may have used alien technology other than the Granolith to hop through time.

If the Skins have that nifty gadget to do a Wipeout it seems like their ships may have been able to navigate through time in some way also. And the original Guardians/glowies would have known how to use this technology to get the pods to safety, but the R4 and human friends don't know how to do this yet.

Maybe Serena will be the Human To Figure It Out for her friends.

JLinderhof

With Kivar going to all this trouble and expense to obtain the granolith, I think it is most likely that there is only one because they don't have the capability to make another. My theory is that the granolith is a leftover piece of technology from a prior galactic culture. The people on the podsters' home world found it, and used it, but don't really understand it.

Hence the fact that it is regarded as a "religious" device, like the holy grail of the podsters homeworld, and Max, the "once and future king". If the granolith was found by the aliens in ages past, possibly while they were still a primitive culture, it would hold mystical connections for them.

Ownership of the granolith would convey great power in this framework, perhaps the reason that their government is still in the form of a monarchy.

Hence the fact that it is regarded as a "religious" device, like the holy grail of the podsters homeworld, and Max, the "once and future king". If the granolith was found by the aliens in ages past, possibly while they were still a primitive culture, it would hold mystical connections for them.

Ownership of the granolith would convey great power in this framework, perhaps the reason that their government is still in the form of a monarchy.

This explanation explains why the thing would be considered a religious object more than any other theory out there.

I haven't read the whole thread. How'd you get to this topic from VLV?

I've just been lurking lately, but I believed they started out talking about Max's vision/premonition/memory of the wedding scene. That went onto a discussion of time loops and the different time frames? that were talked about in Wipe Out. Which then led to the Granolith being used as a time travel device, etc.

BTW, I think that JLinderhof theory about the arrival of the podsters is great! very plausible and fits in nicely.

In keeping with the transcendent memory angle, perhaps that spot in Las Vegas is a "thin place." Some people hold that there are physical places of historical/spiritual significance where one is more receptive to the transcendent. Examples might be Iona, Stonehenge, Fatima, Tibet...

Okay, it's rediculous to even think of Las Vegas as a thin place, but hey, you can't PICK where the thin place is going to be, it just reveals itself as a kind of opening or portal to another place of connection.

So (and I am getting to the point, here) if Las Vegas is a "thin place" for Max's history, I wonder if it might be one of the points on the cave map. We still don't know what all the points represent, but we do know the Library was one of the places, and Tess was able to grab the book out of the wall there. Good or ill, perhaps the library is a kind of thin place as well... Arizona also seems to be a place of significance...

Have we correlated all the points on the cave map to physical locations?

Hey she might be on to something .