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| Topic Subject: Season Two Discussion Thread |
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Posted 12-25-2003 11:30 AM by Stephan R
Hi, Again this is the same idea as the Season One Discussion Thread, but this one is for S2. Ok, I think that the 2nd half of S2 was too depressing for me. The breakups of so many couples... the death of Alex... Tess being the killer... Although I wish Tess was not the killer, it would be Kivar and Kivar made us think that Alex is dead but he isn't... Alex is in Antar being held hostage. Tess and Kyle would be a couple. My favourite episodes got to be, Viva Las Vegas, Meet the Dupes and the Skins episodes, Summer of '47, I liked CYN because it was so sad and everyone was so good in it. I liked some parts of Departure... wish that they would reveal Kivar being the killer instead of Tess. Post your thoughts! Stephan |
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Posted 12-25-2003 11:40 AM by ~ Timmy ~
I liked season 2. My fave episodes are EOTW, Viva las vegas, Heart of mine and Depatrure. I didn't like Tess and Sean, but hey. And Tess being the killer? I actully liked the story. I didn't see that one coming. It was quite a surprise. I'm sorry that Alex died but CYN was a good episode too. |
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Posted 12-25-2003 12:05 PM by Roswelldesertsky
Hey There!
[ 12-25-2003: Message edited Roswelldesertsky ] |
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Posted 12-25-2003 12:16 PM by Abducted Bookworm
I detested EOTW and much of the end of the season. There was no continuity, NOTHING made sense, and without Alex and A/I you can't have Roswell at all. I really hate how they suddenly made Tess, a character I'd been liking more and more, both evil and omnipotent. The first could have been handled... I'd prefer good but sometimes annoying Tess, but an evil Tess could have been made interesting. Omnipotent characters, good or evil, are never interesting and that's what they did by suddenly giving Tess those incredible abilities. That said, there was a lot I liked. Even at the end of the season there were some eps which were individually interesting. I don't like the idea of Max being a bad guy, but ITLITB was very well executed and acted. A perfectly done very bad idea. CYN the same only more so - perfectly done, but one of the worst ideas ever. Early in the season were some great eps. I love how they handled Nasedo, and while I regretted his death, it made sense. My favorite ep of Season 2 is "Meet the Dupes." Can't do without Lonnie! I enjoyed ARCC, but the absence of Alex was a severe blow, and again - made no sense. (Come to think of it, practically all of the things I disliked on Roswell were violations of the principle of continuity. The offscreen A/I breakup. Grant. The murder of Alex by the producers. Making Tess evil and nearly omnipotent. Making Max evil. Not bringing Alex back in "Decrapture." Not bringing Alex back in the opening of the alleged S3. The Interloper. Kyle's cruel remarks. Not bringing Alex back in "Interruptus." Maria dumping Michael in such a crude fashion. Max treating Cal so badly. Not bringing Alex back in "Crash." Focusing on Liz in dealing with Tess' return. Not bringing Alex back in "Graduation." All defied logic and continuity, along with good taste.) Anyway... I liked most of S2. I think my post dwelt more on the negatives than I intended, because of the links between the negatives of S2 and the alleged next season. But the dupes were great. The Skins were fun. "Heart of Mine" was a relatively happy series finale. (Happy for A/I and M/M, hope remaining for M/L and K/T.) And the Christmas ep was sadly lacking, but what it did have was fun, and the Christmas Nazi was beautiful and hilarious.
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Posted 12-25-2003 12:41 PM by Immortal CandyGirl
I liked season 2 but not the first episodes. The storyline about Tess being the one who killed Alex sucked and I would have really liked for Kivar to be the one behind it so Alex could have been brought back. CYN is one of my fave eps although Alex dies. Such a sad ep. My fave eps are HtOHL, VLV, HOM, CYN and Departure. I liked Sean although it took some time. Alex not being in so many eps in s2 really sucked. He is a great character and I would have liked to see more of him. |
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Posted 12-26-2003 03:47 AM by Roswelldesertsky
Alex not being in really a lot episodes was certain to be a big fault during season 2.I cannot find any reason why the writers shouldn't have liked him,maybe Colin Hanks did some other things except the show! I mean,Alex was killed because Colin Hanks wanted to act in "Orange County"... |
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Posted 12-26-2003 06:55 AM by rebelle
I did like season 2. It was concentrated on alien stuff so relationships between the characters were put aside. Yes, it was pretty depressive, all bonds breaking, and Tess with her evil plans! Didn't like the Dupree part..boring! I liked Sean. If Max could sleep with Tess (another reason to hate s2) then Liz should get someone too. I think it's nice how Sean helped Liz and told her how she was suffocating. It kinda opened her eyes. Despite all, season 2 had most of my favorite episodes: EOTW, ARCC, Heart of mine... I also liked Skin&Bones, Wipeout, VLV, and the last 5 episodes except Off the Menu (I mean WTF??). |
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Posted 12-26-2003 08:11 AM by fetch
I actually liked season 2. I think the plots were interesting. I also think, and people are going to hate me for this, that disliking a whole season/show because a certain couple broke up or a charactor isn't featured anymore is sort of silly. The show was never about that. What's even harder for me to understand is why people who hated both season 2 and 3- two thirds of the show- want to bring Roswell back for another season or a movie o.0 I think there mistake in season 2 (and onwards) was they took it too fast. It could have been two seasons, in my opinion. Developed the charactors and plotlines more. I mean, we found out Whitaker was a skin and she was killed in that same episode. They could have had her be a threat for longer. Same as Pierce and Nicholas. The Dupes disspeared, also. If they only wanted them in that plot, it would have been several episodes, so we could see more how they act and everything. And, and what's this about Tess having incredible abilities? Like what? We always knew she could windwarp (season 1). What else could she do? |
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Posted 12-26-2003 09:50 AM by Roswelldesertsky
fetch the producers took many things too fast on Roswell.It's sad because if they had not,the show would have been even better. But I liked it the way it was,either,and I'm very satisfied. |
Posted 12-26-2003 03:04 PM by Abducted Bookworm
quote: Simply not true! Other actors got to do both the show and movies, as Colin wanted to - especially reasonable since he wasn't getting much screentime. And he was told that if he didn't do the movie, he might not get any screentime anyway. It was Katims decision, not Colins - and that decision was enough to destroy the show. Having so little of Alex was also Katims' decision, and as you say it severely hurt the quality of Season 2. Tess could always Mindwarp - put illusions into people's head. Then she was given the ability to totally control someone's mind, at a distance, for an extended period of the time - something totally different, and absurdly powerful. She was also given the incredibly invasive ability to alter people's memories. Neither of these immensely powerful abilities were ever so much as hinted at before "Off the Menu." I do agree there was stuff a lot more time could have been spent on, like the dupes.
[ 12-26-2003: Message edited Abducted Bookworm ] |
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Posted 12-26-2003 03:48 PM by DreamingApplesaucer1947
yeh i thought they could of expanded a bit more with the dupes. i would of liked to of seen more with Zan, and max meeting zan but then i guess most of the storyline in Meet the dupes would of have to of been changed . i was watching the s2 xmas ep, roswell xmas carol, and i really missed Alex in it, he was no where to be seen and his name wasnt even mentioned. i just thought someone could of even said oh hes gone away or something, Tess could of had him off doing some crazy thing, or Kivar could of had him for the ammount of attention the rest of them paid his disapearence! i agree with what alot of people say about the last few eps of s2, did get a bit sad with all the breakups and Alex's death, and off the menu really wasnt great to be shoved in before departure but i liked s2, it had a bit of everything, sadness, happines, a bit of destiny,partying, heartbreaks and makeups... but il admit all the fighting between liz and Max did drive me a bit crazy but it all worked out well in the end.. im just wondering that now liz&max are together will future max's predictions come true??.....do du dooo.... tune in next week... if only!! |
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Posted 12-26-2003 03:52 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Well they still don't have Tess and now they don't have Alex, so yeah Future Max's predictions are certain to come true. Oh well... sad ending is a sad ending, why not include the end (or at least conquest) of the world? More dramatic that way! *sigh* ARCC had such potential... it could have been such a holiday classic! What was there was so good, it just needed Alex!
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Posted 12-26-2003 04:37 PM by Algieba
Hi, Abducted Bookworm. Haven't been on a thread with you in quite a while. I'm looking forward to the discussion. DreamingApplesaucer1947. You and AB have brought up a subject I love to speculate on. Just what happens in the future? Was the destruction of the Skins by Tess enough to stop whatever FutureMax warned about? Does changing the present and losing Alex (who was at Max and Liz's wedding in the first time line) make Earth's situation worse? What about Khivar? Does he give up trying to destroy the Royal Four or rather the Royal Three now that Tess is gone? What was the reason for Earth's enemies to try to take over anyway? Did they want our resources, our people? Or are they just like so many power hungry humans wanting to rule others because that is the nature of the universe? What a fantastic sequel it would make to have a war between humans and Antarians. Look at the success of LOTR, Star Trek and so many of the scifi and fantasy greats. A battle makes for an exciting story. Our Roswellians, all grown up and the only ones who are aware of the coming threat could play a pivotal part in saving Earth. [ 12-26-2003: Message edited Algieba ] |
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Posted 12-26-2003 05:06 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Hi Algieba, glad you're here. That idea of yours would make a very interesting movie, but having the complete cast as you suggest is a must. I'd love to see Jim and Amy's relationship progress. Also a return of the dupes, especially Lonnie! I would also like to see the whole telling of Isabel and Max's parents redone. That was a major theme in the first two seasons, and needs to be done - and done right.
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Posted 12-27-2003 04:02 AM by Roswelldesertsky
quote:
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Posted 12-27-2003 10:17 AM by fetch
quote: Ah, but her windwarp wasn't that strong- it faded over time. |
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Posted 12-27-2003 10:40 AM by PHMustang2000
I think season 2 is my favorite season. It had everything. Action,Scifi, Romance, Betrayal I think "The Departure" is my all time favorite episode of Roswell. I cried in that episode more than any other Roswell episode. When They were saying goodbye to everyone. I seriously thought they all were gonna leave. |
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Posted 12-27-2003 12:49 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Desertsky, I know that story has been put out there.
quote: She altered Kyle's memories extensively. She edited Alex's memories, as well as taking total control over his mind, at a distance, for months. ("Departure.") She altered Brody's own memories, not just blocking Larek's memories but also some of Brody's own. She also erased some of Amy's memories! (OTM) Tampering with Amy's mind also showed Max, Valenti, Michael, Isabel, Liz and Maria that Tess was evil - and implicated them all in the act, especially Max. Amy had never harmed them. She could have been reasoned with. But Tess invaded her mind, in a horribly invasive fashion, messing with her memories, causing long-lasting side-effects (nightmares, finger-tapping), and the rest of the group went along with her? That really, really bothered me. Also the way they showed "Off the Menu" out of chronological order, in order to create a false mystery. Liz was shown as being really perceptive in figuring out who the murderer is, but given what happened in OTM she was an idiot for taking so long! The rest of the gang had to be practically brain-dead not to see it. OTM was the first sign of Tess' suddenly expanded capabilities as well as her lack of morality - and both it made clear. Ahem... OTM really bothered me!
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Posted 12-27-2003 01:58 PM by Roswelldesertsky
quote:
I totally agree with your opinion about "Off The Menue".I even have to add that it was the worst episode of season 1&2. |
Posted 12-27-2003 08:53 PM by Abducted Bookworm
quote: Hmm... I was thinking EOTW, CYN (for its effects) or "Departure" (which could have been used to fix the season's worst flaws). But you may well be right. Interesting...
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Posted 12-28-2003 12:52 AM by shapeshifter
Just a driveby on the topic of Season 2 after skimming the above posts... If we look at the production of Roswell as a meta-phor for a teenage romantic relationship (between the creative powers and TPTB), then Season 2 is the phase in which the couple is regularly getting into a fight, breaking up, then kissing and making up. With all that stress to be commercially "good enough," the show was not free to grow and develop naturally. That's the down side. The up side is that I, like many fans, set aside an hour each week in which no distractions were allowed, nothing was between me and the tv (which was just a few feet away), and at the end of that hour, no matter how much I had feared that the show was becoming something ridiculous (thinking blue jellyfish), I still sat back and said, "Wow." |
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Posted 12-28-2003 10:17 AM by Abducted Bookworm
Interesting way of looking at it... yeah. Although if the jellyfish had been the worst thing to happen I'd have loved S2. A little sillyness without lasting effects can be tolerated.
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Posted 12-28-2003 10:26 AM by Algieba
Hi, shapeshifter. I went to your archives to see if their was something about the blue jellyfish aka Gandarium but I didn't see anything. There's so much there I might have missed it though. Steer me in the right direction please if so because I found the Gandarium very interesting. I thought they were a lot more plausible than the alien that popped out of people's chests in the Alien movies with Sigourney Weaver. Maybe someone with more knowledge about how much extra room there is in the human body can correct me here but I think a soft, fluid creature would be more believable than a crusty, hardbodied, sharptoothed, wormy one. The alien in "Aliens" had to fit inside a human body just like the queen of the Gandariums. It was big enough that it should have shown as a bulge in the human body it inhabited much like a baby in the womb of a human would. It couldn't flatten itself out like a cockroach so I don't see how it got as big as it did without showing. The Gandarium were able to change from a solid to liquid form and back again as we saw when it was being studied by Max under the microscope and he fell asleep. That explained to me how all those sharp, solid crystals popped up out of Grant's chest after he died. At first I thought there's no way all that could have been inside him with him still alive. But if they could change shape and merge with body fluids, maybe they could. The Gandarium queen was quite large but having the properties of a jellyfish meant she was soft, fluid, pliable, and had long dangly things that could slip into places around organs of the body. The point that was made about the Gandarium bridging the gap between human and alien DNA made sense to me. The human body rejects things foreign to it and attacks them as invaders. That's the point of all the research and new drugs for ways to make the body accept transplants. Like so much of our own science, unintended consequences and side effects can be deadlier than the ailment itself. The Gandarium left on their own ran amuck the same as any virus or bacteria might here on Earth. I don't have a lot of scientific or medical knowledge so anyone please feel free to blow a few holes in my theories. Perhaps this belongs on the RBI thread but since the Gandarium were brought up here I thought I'd address it here. I think Citrus posted a picture of a really amazing looking jellyfish or jellyfish type creature on a previous thread. It was actually quite beautiful. There are so many fascinating creatures in our world. The only one I won't take up for is the cockroach except to say they are the quintessential (I think that's a word) survivor. [ 12-28-2003: Message edited Algieba ] |
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Posted 12-28-2003 01:22 PM by Ladeia
I loved the scifi in Season 2 but hated what they did to the characters. I thought TEOTW was the stupidest plot device ever created. If you're going to come back in time to stop the end of the world give some information that's useful. When do they come, how do you kill them, what were they coming to EArth for, and any other useful information so they have a chance. Putting the end of the world on Liz's shoulders was just stupid. How do you expect a 17 year old to handle that pressure? As demonstrated by the show, Tess didn't stick around so why didn't they think of alternatives in case they weren't able to keep Tess in town? I thought the whole you have to make my younger self fall out of love with you was just too obviously a plot device to keep M/L apart. It's a case of if it's really that easy to make Max fall out of love with Liz and turn to Tess than they shouldn't have been together to begin with. Second, if the only thing that would keep Tess in Roswell was having Max, than what would have happened if Liz made Max fall out of love with her but he didn't turn to Tess but found someone else? They would have still been in the same boat. They really didn't think that plot out very well. The jelly queen thing was okay.. the Grant plotline with his relationship to Isabel was just stupid. The Hybrid Chronicles were okay but lasted way too long and they only covered Michael's genetic donor. What about Max, Isabel, and Tess? I like Summer of '47 and Surprise was okay but I thought Isabel was an idiot for listening to the bad guys. Who the heck believes the bad guys when they tell you something like that? I don't know about you but I would have questioned it. Skin and Bones was okay and I liked how they dealt with Nesado. I like VLV but I would have loved to see Max and Liz kiss or Liz tell Max about FMax. I really thought it was stupid of her not to tell the podsters about the end of the world. That is just too big of a deal to just keep it to herself. I hated that Alex died but if they had somehow made him come back like they did with Max in Season 3 I would have loved it and it could have really been a good plot device. I never really liked Tess unless she was with Kyle. She had great chemistry with Kyle and if they had made them a couple it could have really worked. She had so many cheesy lines. "You must have been a great husband." Oh puh-leaze... I shudder just thinking about some of the corny lines she spewed out and Max fell for it?!!? I didn't really mind that Tess was responsible for killing Alex but what I did find really disturbing is she was suddenly super powerful. She managed to make the high school, Alex's parents and friends all believe he was in Sweden. She managed to make Las Cruces University believe he was a student. She managed to control Alex for 2 months when she was still in Roswell for at least most of that time to decode the book and then make him believe that he was in Sweden and had a relationship with someone called Leanna. Yet it's never mentioned again how powerful she had to have been to do all that or what else she could have done while with them. Shutting up now.. Season 2 was the best in the scifi department but the worst in relationships and believable plot lines. |
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Posted 12-28-2003 01:41 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Ladeia, another great post. EOTW never made sense to me either. I kept wanting to know how he knew it was Tess he needed, how the heck he could know this was the only way... it didn't make sense. A wonderful Kyle/Tess relationship was developing until Liz dealt it a major setback. I could never ship M/L after EOTW. Liz just annoyed me too much by going along with FMax's stupid plan, when she's supposedly smart. Having Alex murdered could have worked, if they had had adhered to the tiniest smidgin of the continuity that demanded he be brought back. There was a lot of drama between CYN and OTM. (Although making Max evil was a questionable long run choice, however interesting in the short term.) I guess I agree... great SF and action, if only there'd been continuity. Continuity also demanded no Grant plot, which would have raised the quality of the whole season. The lack of A/I is what kept so many good S2 eps from being in the same category as S1 eps. If there had been no idiotic Grant plot, I think most of S2 would have ranked up there with S1 - and therefore with the very best of television.
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Posted 12-28-2003 05:46 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Another excellent post Ladeia!! |
Posted 12-28-2003 09:06 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Algieba, try entering the words
Then, click on one of the linked pages, and, after a page loads, click Edit/Find (or Ctrl + F) and search for either jellyfish or gandarium to see where on the page those words are included in the discussion. |
Posted 12-28-2003 10:22 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
quote: I suppose I'm a little late with this......and it is midnight right now.......but here goes. Shorter thing first. OTM was aired right before Departure, most likely because of the finger-tapping thing. Katims was probably worried that people would forget Amy had been mindwarped, if they aired OTM before HoM. This way, we saw Amy being mindwarped, and in the next episode saw her doing the mindwarp-tap (as I like to call it), which was after Liz had noticed Kyle tapping his fingers in the same way. Then she remembered Alex tapping his fingers on his guitar the day he died, and realized that Tess had mindwarped both Alex and Kyle. The important thing is, the mindwarp-tap was done by both Kyle and Amy in Departure itself. Alex doing it, left on its own, is nothing. Particularly since Amy was supposedly mindwarped before the prom, and Kyle had been mindwarped since the day Alex died, if they had shown them, especially Kyle, tapping their fingers BEFORE Departure, then the plotline would've had more credence. To me that shows they threw it together at the last minute. I think that if Roswell hadn't been picked up for a third season, Departure would have been quite different. Now for the bigger thing. You know I don't agree with your OTM theory, Brian, and it sucks on you that you left it for me to address in a public forum. OTM did NOT show the first sign of Tess's lack of morality, nor did it show her using the type of powers she was supposedly revealed to have in Departure. I do agree with you on one thing -- Amy, possibly, could have been reasoned with, yes. BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE TIME. Hanson and the other police had just finished getting the doors to open. Had Amy not been mindwarped, she would have confirmed Hanson's suspicion that Brody had been holding them hostage, and Brody would have been taken in for questioning. The UFO center might have been searched -- which would have meant that the disk that showed Max using his powers would have been found. Tess didn't want to have to mindwarp Amy. They tried having Maria appeal to her mother first, but that didn't work. Liz succeeded in bribing Sean to lie, so Sean didn't get mindwarped. Tess didn't mindwarp Brody. Max healed his brain. Because while he had access to Larek's memories he lost touch with some of his own, like his memories of Sydney, he didn't remember any of what happened while he had access to Larek's memories. I don't really understand that, but it's probably got stuff to do with the human brain things in that episode. Like I said up there, OTM did not show Tess to have anywhere near the kind of power she was revealed to supposedly have in Departure. In OTM she altered the immediate memories of one person; whereas in Departure she was revealed to have mindwarped Alex for MORE than two months before his death, mindwarped Kyle since the night Alex died, mindwarped the entire guidance office, and in the meantime also performing minor mindwarps, like mindwarping Agent Duff to believe she was really looking at Kyle's report card. I don't see how you can compare that to what she did to Amy, even if you don't agree with preserving the identities of the podsters.
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Posted 12-28-2003 10:32 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I think it was believable that Tess accomplished what she did with the powers the audience knew she had. For example, the audience knows that Tess can alter records, so that would account for how she could change school records, both at West Roswell and in Las Cruces. The audience also knows that Tess was in Las Cruces, when she worked with Isabel and Max, in order for Max to age Pierceís bones. Tess could have learned about the super computer then. Tess could also have mindwarped Alex to believe that he should stay to himself and not talk to others, so his mission would remain secret. As long as mindwarps werenít interrupted or contradicted, they could remain effective for long periods of time. For example, Max didnít know that Zan wasnít really dying, while he was on Earth. (Max might have suspected a mindwarp, but he couldnít know for certain.) Max didnít learn the truth about Zanís health on Earth, until about a year later. Agent Duff also never suspected that she hadnít really seen Kyleís grades on the blank sheet of paper. As long as things didnít contradict the mindwarp, the mindwarp remained in effect. Once Alex completed the translation, he would notify Tess in some manner. Again, that could be part of what Alex believed (through mindwarp) that Isabel wanted him to do. Tess then would suppress Alexís memory of doing the translation in Las Cruces, the same way she suppressed Amyís memory of what happened with Brody. Then Tess would mindwarp Alex into believing he really had gone to Sweden. [ 12-28-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 12-29-2003 07:02 AM by fetch
quote: I pretty much agree with you on everything... except in Depature we still don't discover Tess had any kind of "superpowers." We're never told that Tess windwarped him from Roswell. She didn't need to. As far as we know, she spent nights with him- he was seen once at night near the computors. The whole day, while Tess was in school, etc, Alex stayed inside his room, AFTER Tess had windwarped him to think he was in Sweden. Since there's nothing to condract it, there's no reason why he couldn't sit in his room and write Maria an email about what he "did that day" or something. |
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Posted 12-29-2003 12:14 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Blocking Amy's memories was completely unforeshadowed. It didn't display the full range of Tess' capabilities; but it did show she was vastly, vastly more powerful than ever before shown. It showed she was far more ruthless than ever before hinted at. (And it showed none of her friends acting with a moral compass either.) Assuming that Tess could impersonate Isabel so well Alex couldn't see through it is a big assumption. And convincing him never to contact Isabel, Liz, Maria, his parents... it doesn't remotely add up. You're both forgetting the whole 'Ray' thing. Amy would have trusted Jim if no one else, if he had said "I'll explain as soon as we're out of here." Messing with someone's mind is big. It's horribly invasive - far more aply described as mind rape than what Nicholas does (mere voyeurism by comparison). Yes, Tess was suddenly changed. But not in "Departure" - in the episode before. If OTM had been shown after HOM, when CYN was aired it would have been immediately obvious that Tess was the murderer. I tend to agree that may not even have been decided yet. But either it was very sloppy planning or it was a huge cheat to create a mystery for the fans that shouldn't have existed for any of the characters.
[ 12-29-2003: Message edited Abducted Bookworm ] |
Posted 12-29-2003 07:43 PM by Ladeia
quote: Yes, that could have been possible but we were never given any indication of that on the show. We were just given Tess mindwarped Alex into decoding the book and then believing he had been to Sweden. When Kyle remembered walking in on Alex's final moments with Tess, Alex never mentions that he translated the book willingly and then Tess did something to him after he translated it. We were made to believe that Tess used her powers to force him into translating the book and creating two months of memories. If they had found out that Alex had believed Isabel was trying to get him to translate the book or if he had just decided to do it on his own as a surprise and Tess found out about it after the fact then that would have been more believable and wouldn't have made Tess seem so powerful. |
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Posted 12-29-2003 08:05 PM by locutus of borg
I liked most of S2, but not as much as S1 and S3. I really liked them getting rid of "Tex" in the end of the season. I don't believe that EOTW was real. The "evil mindwarping whore from hell" mindwarped Liz in order to steal Max away from her! (LOL) I didn't care much for Grant, or that storyline. The worst though, in my opinion, were the dupes. Roswell could have gone ten seasons without introducing those creeps. ( I'll make an exception for Ava) we are the Borg [ 12-29-2003: Message edited locutus of borg ] |
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Posted 12-29-2003 08:47 PM by Citrus and Vine
fetch, locutus of borg, Ladeia, Abducted Bookworm, and everyone!
quote: That, of course, would be the problem to explain to the audience how everything happened, since none of the characters left alive ever found out either. Kyle sees Alex reciting part of the translation. Alex didnít explain what he was doing or how he got the information. I think Alex needed to be alert and in control of his brain, while using the super computer. Thatís why I doubt that Alex was mindwarped into thinking he was in Sweden, while he was actually doing the translation. I think Alex knew he was pretending to be in Sweden, while he did the translation. I think during the time he wasnít working on the super computer, he gathered information on Sweden. I think he familiarized himself with the information, rather than Tess implanting the information. Alex was happy and confident when he talked about his trip. I think your suggestion that Alex could have decided to do the translation on his own as a surprise, and Tess found out about it after the fact sounds good at first. Alex, however, didnít have the source material for the translation. Max had the book that Nasedo and Tess concocted to convince Max, Isabel, and Michael to pair up and produce children for Kivar. They didnít know the book was fake. (The book had some real alien symbols and it had the Antar V-shaped symbol.) The audience knows that the so-called ìDestiny Bookî wasnít the source for the translation, because the book had drawings and some symbols on a few pages. The translation, in contrast, had many pages of close type. Tess evidently had the source material for the translation, so Alex couldnít have decided on his own to do the translation as a surprise, unless he had access to the source material. Max had hidden the purported alien book Tess once had in the podchamber, so Alex couldnít have used that. Tess could have told Alex about the source material, and then he could have decided on his own to translate it as a surprise for Isabel. That idea would work, I think. Thank you for your ideas, Ladeia! |
Posted 12-29-2003 08:56 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote:I doubt that Amy would have gone on Jimís word, since she didnít accept what her own daughter told her. Jim couldnít have told Amy anything more than what Maria told her mother. None of the podsters or their friends wanted any more people to be exposed to alien problems. Even if Jim explained all about aliens, Amy would still believe that Brody was dangerous, because he had threatened her daughter. The reason why Amy talked aloud unknowingly at night even with the mindwarp suppression was that the event was so traumatic. Amy made it clear to everyone at the UFO center that she would not keep quiet. Tessí mindwarp kept Amy from telling others what really happened that night. ~~~~~~~~~~
quote:Maybe Tessí power to suppress Amyís memory was foreshadowed, by the knowledge that the aliens continued to develop new powers. For example, Max had never been able to use the green force shield, until he was startled by the welder. Tess had never added her power to Maxís power, until they had to hold off the Skins in Copper Summit. Tess had never killed people, until she killed many Skins in the high school by using her powers. Even without knowing that Tess could block memories, the audience knows that Tess could make people believe some untrue things. Suppressing Amyís memory wasnít much different from convincing the two agents that Pierce told them to go to Hondo. Both cases involve changing peopleís perception of events. Consider for a moment if someone gave a person who was very upset over a traumatic event a sedative to calm them. You would know that person had the power to stop someoneís behavior. Consider if a friend of yours died, and you suspected (or didnít suspect) foul play. If your friend died with no evidence of sedatives in his or her system, then you would have no reason to suspect that your friend was murdered by another who could administer sedatives. Likewise, there was no evidence for Max, Michael, Isabel, Liz, or Maria that Alex had ever been mindwarped. No medical evidence pointed in that direction. Most everyone, except Liz and Kyle, believed that Alexís death was natural. There was no medical evidence to contradict their belief. There was evidence from Alexís teachers and from the delivery guy and from the truck driver that Alex might have been suicidal. Even if Alex didnít cause his own death, car accidents happen when drivers are distracted. It was reasonable to believe that Alexís death was natural or possibly a suicide. Liz believed Alex was murdered. She had knowledge she didnít share with the others that might have convinced them that Alex could have been murdered. Liz didnít tell anyone else, not even Maria, that Alex had lived longer in the first timeline. (Possibly Liz felt too guilty about her own responsibility in contributing to Alexís death, since she had helped change the timeline. Maybe thatís why she didnít tell anyone else the truth.)
quote: I doubt that Tess impersonated Isabel. I think that she possibly mindwarped Alex into thinking Isabel asked him to do the alien translation secretly using the super computer at Las Cruces. I also like the suggestion that Alex did the translation as a surprise for Isabel. Alex would understand that he needed to pretend to others that he was in Sweden, so no one who might watch the podsters in Roswell would realize what he was doing. Thatís also why Alex assumed the identity of Ray in Las Cruces. A different identity would keep anyone at the computer center from connecting Alexís work to the podsters. While in Las Cruces, Alex would correspond with everyone, as though he were in Sweden. He would expect everyone else, including Isabel, to correspond with him in the same manner. Isabel, if she communicated with him by email, would believe Alex really was in Sweden and would write to Alex accordingly. Alex would correspond with Isabel and everyone else, including his parents, as though he was in Sweden, too, so that anyone reading their email would believe Alex was in Sweden. Alex wouldnít know that Isabel didnít know he was in Las Cruces. (That's if Tess mindwarped Alex into thinking that Isabel asked him to secretly do the translating. If Alex did it as a surprise for Isabel, then he would know that Isabel didn't know where he really was.) Alex would be maintaining the Sweden ruse, while he was in Las Cruces, and he would expect Isabel and all the others to maintain the idea that he was in Sweden, also. [ 12-29-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 12-29-2003 09:59 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Let's not forget Liz's help in changing the timeline in TEOTW, whether he disappeared or not. What could the others do if Liz told them about FMax or not? Were the others that smart to know that Tess was going to be the evil murderer that killed Alex? Was Max going to know that Tess was mindwarping Alex all that time? Max didn't even know when Tess was mindwarping him half the time? I would have loved to see the outcome if Liz would have told Max about FMax. Let's see how smart the others would have been if Liz had given them the information. Maybe Tess would have left town like she did anyway and Alex would have lived. |
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Posted 12-29-2003 10:57 PM by Mariarulesalways2
I have to say that one of the biggest problems that I 've always had with the whole scenario of Tess as the mastermind is that,while maybe Tess could've technically done everything she's supposed to have done,she went to an incredible amount of trouble and effort for something that Alex probably would have done gladly on his own ( I mean, why wouldn't he help Isabel and Co. out)? And what she's supposed to have done is so incredibly intricate and complicated for just one person who has to hide everything she does from everybody she knows and the people she lives with,fight enemies on a regular basis and go to school and keep up with her homework...Geez,maybe that's why she snapped Seriously, I've never bought it and hopefully, any new Roswell will clear Tess's name. As far as her actions in Off the Menu, I agree that while it might not have been the best course of a ction,they were under a lot of time pressure and needed a quick solution. It might be fun to see them deal with their guilt about that at some point. Finally,speaking of Tess's powers,whatever happened to the matter reconstruction abilities she had in "Tess,Lies and Videotape"? Then there's her briefly glimpsed pyrokinetic abilities...I guess you could make a case for the idea that,as a Queen,she would be extremely powerful... Best wishes, Scott |
Posted 12-30-2003 07:11 AM by fetch
quote: Er... what are you talking about? What makes you think the destiny book was made by Tess and Nacedo? We dod'nt know what the symbols means; they could be each a letter, a word, or even a sentance. That's why Tess and the others couldn't translate it themselves but needed complicated software for it. |
Posted 12-30-2003 09:00 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Maybe each symbol could be a letter, a word, or even a sentence. However, there are few symbols in the book, compared to the number of sentences in the stack of pages. Some of the symbols are used more than once, so the symbols seemed to be words or letters, rather than complete sentences. (Each sentence in the translation on the top page is different in content from the other sentences in the translation.) To me, the so-called Destiny Book has too few pages and too few different symbols to produce the volume of pages and different sentences contained in the translation. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2c05a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2c70a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2caaa87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/bc9a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/bcfa87e0.jpg IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/babyits/babyitsyou189.jpg The reason Alex had to use a super computer to do the translation was that Nasedo hadnít taught Tess how to read Antarian. The Antarians who sent the podsters intended for the guardians sent along on the trip to teach the podsters to read Anrtarian language. (Max and Isabelís Antarian mother wanted them to return to Antar to free them, after they killed the enemies on Earth. So the podsters would need to know how to read Antarian, so they could work effectively to free Antar, when they returned.) The book Tess had Max see her take from the library wall was small, with few pages. The book had pictures of the podsters. There was no reason for the people who sent the podsters to send pictures. The podsters could look at in a mirror to see what they looked like. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/acba87e0.jpg The so-called Destiny Book had pictures of the podsters to convince Max, Michael, and Isabel that Tess was one of them. It also had pregnancy pictures to convince Michael and Isabel, and Max to pair up and have children. The book had pictures of Max, Michael, and Isabel, when they were younger. Tess knew what Isabel and Max looked like as kids, because Mrs. Evans showed her pictures of them. The picture of Michael in the book had his current hair style. There would be no way for the people who sent the podsters to know what hair style Michael would wear. Michael looked like Grandpa Dupree. People in that time didnít wear their hair the way Michael had his hair styled. Kivar wanted children from Max and Isabel. He needed a lineal royal heir to legitimatize his rule on Antar. Kivar made a deal with Nasedo, so Nasedo would raise the podsters to produce royal heirs and return with their children to Antar. Nasedo didnít teach Tess, Max, Michael, or Isabel to read their own language, because he wanted to control them. He didnít want them to be able to go to Antar on their own, without fulfilling his deal with Kivar.
[ 12-30-2003: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 12-31-2003 07:06 AM by Roswelldesertsky
Citrus and Vine I agree with you about the Destiny Book,but if you're right, outher question will be created. One of them says,Nacedo cannot be sure if Max,Isabel and Michael are the real missing royal three,that's why he didn't come and tell them about their destiny straight away.But how could he not know?There are pictures of everyone in the destiny book.
[ 12-31-2003: Message edited Roswelldesertsky ] |
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Posted 12-31-2003 12:40 PM by Abducted Bookworm
I think these explanations are attempts to go back and make things fit later events. They're very good attempts at this, assuming the timeline works out (I'm assuming Citrus is right that Tess saw the videos with Mrs Evans before she and Kyle got the book). I just don't believe that the Tess betrayal plotline had been planned out this far in advance, when there were no real indications previous to OTM. I think you're giving the writers too much credit in how they implemented their stupidest decision ever.
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Posted 12-31-2003 03:17 PM by fetch
By the way- when did Tess mindwarp Max? o.0 I seem to have watched a different show.
quote: Well, we don't know what eich ymbol means, so we don't know if the book was too short or not. There are many words and even sentances that are repeated in the message- destiny, Granolith, etc. Plus, the printed version wasn't really long. I don't recall seeing how long it was, but it looked like two printed pages, maybe three or four. Not a lot. And the book was several pages, including the pictures. As for the pictures, well, apparently they knew what they'll do. For example, the destiny thing- Tess knew Michael and Isabel were having dreams about each other. They were probably programmed to. Oterwise, just chalk it up to the writers for not thinking that Michael could change his haircut |
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Posted 01-01-2004 03:35 AM by Citrus and Vine
fetch
quote: The translation was more than three or four pages. Here is a picture of the translation. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3559a87e0.jpg You can verify the number of pages in the translation by watching Baby Itís You or Who Died and Made You King. |
Posted 01-01-2004 03:46 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Actually, Tess mindwarped Michael and Isabel into thinking they simulataneously dreamed the exact same dream about each other. (In Destiny, Tess mindwarped the two agents simultaneously, so the audience knows that Tess can simultaneously mindwarp people.) Nasedo and Tess made up the so-called Destiny Book. Nasedo was responsible for the book idea that Max and Tess should produce a child, and Michael and Isabel should produce a child. Nasedo was carrying out his deal with Kivar, who needed a lineal royal heir to legitimatize his rule. Max and Isabelís Antarian mother said that she wanted to hold both her children, Max and Isabel, in her arms again. She said nothing about grandchildren. The podstersí intended mission was to defeat the enemies who had come to Earth, and then free Antar. Children would have been an encumbrance. Children would have distracted from the mission. Only Kivar wanted the podsters to produce children. Max and Isabelís mother said nothing about them getting pregnant or producing children. [ 01-01-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-01-2004 03:47 AM by sHobhnA GuerIn CRAZY CANDY
quote: i like what you said here, i absolutely agree. |
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Posted 01-01-2004 03:49 AM by Citrus and Vine
Thanks, sHobhnA GuerIn: CANDY COATED! |
Posted 01-01-2004 03:50 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Nasedo knew all about the Special Unit. Thatís how he found out about Max healing Liz and leaving a silver handprint in Roswell. (Valenti told the FBI about it, and Nasedo got the information from the FBI Special Unit.) To verify that Max really was who Nasedo thought he was, he sent a signal in Frazier Woods that was reported by people in the area. Nasedo also left an alien emblem burned into the ground. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/1bf2a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/1bf4a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/1bf6a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/1bf8a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/baba87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/1bfca87e0.jpg Max, Michael, and Isabel found the symbol in the woods and erased it. Nasedo then knew that he had found the missing podsters. Nasedo continued to watch them and take pictures of them. He had to figure out how he could control them, so he could carry out his deal with Kivar. Nasedo knew that Max could tell him what to do. (The shapeshifters Kal and Nasedo had to obey direct instructions from Max.) Nasedo knew that if he went directly to the podsters to tell them who he was, then they could start asking him questions. Nasedo wanted to control what the podsters knew, so he could trick them into doing what Kivar's deal required. If Nasedo could get the three podsters hunted by the law and the Special Unit, then he could keep them isolated from other humans. If he could make them think he rescued them, then they would believe what he told them to do. Nasedo wanted to get them to fear living on Earth, so they would want to go to Antar. Thatís why Nasedo killed Hank, rather than introduce himself to Michael and provide a home for Michael. Itís also why Nasedo got ìMaxî chased by the police and Special Unit, after he killed the agent and started a fire at the gas station, leaving silver handprints on both the agent and the gas pump. Nasedo could have freed Max from the White Room right away. He knew the place intimately. He knew the exact room Max was being held in. He knew how to get around the place. He knew how to get through the security door, without anyone elseís help. (Nasedo told Michael he would use the approaching agentís hand to get though the door. Nasedo could also shapeshift to look like any of the agents.) Nasedo didnít free Max right away while Max was alone in the white room overnight, because he knew that the Special Unit would study Max. Nasedo wanted Maxís experience with the Special Unit to be painful. Nasedo wanted Max to want to leave Earth. Nasedo didnít tell Tess what he was doing, because he didnít want Tess or any of the podsters to rescue Max. (Tess scolded Nasedo for not telling her where he was. He had never left her before, without telling her.) Michael, Isabel, and Tess showed up unexpectedly, so Nasedo had to pretend that he needed their help to rescue Max, but really, Nasedo could have gotten Max out on his own. Again, Nasedo and Tess made up the so-called Destiny Book. Nasedo was responsible for the book idea that Max and Tess should produce a child, and Michael and Isabel should produce a child. Nasedo was carrying out his deal with Kivar, who needed a lineal royal heir to legitimatize his rule. Max and Isabelís Antarian mother said that she wanted to hold both her children, Max and Isabel, in her arms again. She said nothing about grandchildren. The podstersí intended mission was to defeat the enemies who had come to Earth, and then free Antar. Children would have been an encumbrance. Children would have distracted from the mission. Only Kivar wanted the podsters to produce children. Max and Isabelís mother said nothing about them getting pregnant or producing children.
[ 01-01-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-01-2004 04:07 AM by sHobhnA GuerIn CRAZY CANDY
wow. great points made, Citrus. |
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Posted 01-01-2004 12:21 PM by Roswelldesertsky
Citrus and Vine I know that Nasedo did all those things in oder to check if Max,Isabel and Michael really belong to the royal family,but still: He didn't have to do all those things,because there was a picture of everyone in the destiny book. |
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Posted 01-01-2004 03:33 PM by Citrus and Vine
The so-called Destiny Book was a fake created by Tess and Nasedo. The book wasnít sent along with the podsters. Nasedo faked the book to convince Max and Tess to pair up and Michael and Isabel to pair up and have children for Kivar, who needed a lineal, royal heir to improve his status on Antar, which was war-torn by his rule. The Antarians who sent the podsters had no reason to send rough drawings of what they would look like as children or as they would look like as teens, when they actually looked at the book. The crash of the podsters spaceship was unexpected. Some of the crew died. The Antarians had expected that the guardians would teach the podsters. If the Antarians had included any drawings in material they sent along on the trip, then they likely would have included diagrams for operating the Granilith. That would be useful information for the podsters, if all their guardians died before they were born. Instead, there are only drawings of the podsters as children and as teens, and a drawing of Tess pregnant beside Max and a drawing of Isabel pregnant beside Michael. The podsters didnít know how to use the Granilith, because there were no drawings in the so-called Destiny Book on how to operate the Granilith. The whole idea of the book was to convince Max, Michael, and Isabel to have children for Kivar. Tess was willing to contribute drawings of the podsters as children, because she wanted them to accept her as one of them. Tess thought of them as her family. She wanted the group to go back to Antar, and reclaim Maxís throne. She became willing to carry out Nasedoís deal with Kivar, when she saw a flash of Maxís goodbye kiss to Liz, while Tess was pregnant with their child. Otherwise, Tess would have gone to Antar without Max, since he had already prepared the Granilith for take-off, and she loved him. (Tess asked Max if he was sure he wanted to go to Antar, just before they were leaving. When he kissed her, she felt so betrayed by his kiss to Liz and all the other ways he had betrayed her love for him that she wanted to hurt him as much as he had hurt her.) [ 01-01-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-01-2004 03:51 PM by Ladeia
quote:
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Posted 01-01-2004 04:58 PM by locutus of borg
quote: Uhh, I must respectfully disagree. Tess was the villian, not the victim, from her first appearance. Tess was all about lies, deceit, and mindwarping. Tess never had any love for Max, or anyone else. She only used others, including her fellow aliens, to get what she wanted. Max did not betray Tess in any way. Tess betrayed Max. And Michael. And Isabel. And Alex. And Kyle. And Jim. We are the Borg |
Posted 01-01-2004 06:35 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Max, Michael, and Isabel didnít question the great length of the translation versus the small number of pages and few symbols of the book Tess gave them, because they didnít have any reason to think that the translation was of that book. The three thought that an unknown alien had Alex do the translation from some unknown source. Max had the book Tess gave them hidden in the podchamber, where it remained undisturbed. Because there was such a discrepancy in the amount of material in the translation in comparison to the small amount of material in the so-call Destiny book, no one thought Tess had anything to do with the translation. They all thought some other alien was responsible for making Alex do the translation and then killing him.
At the cave, Liz excitedly said, ìMax stop! It was Tess. Tess killed Alex. She mindwarped Alex and sent him to Las Cruces to decode the book, but he broke out of the mindwarp and she killed him.î IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/3290a87e0.jpg
Tess gave the book to Michael, who gave it to Max. Max couldnít immediately show the book to Liz, because Nasedo kidnapped her that same day, as Max was returning to Roswell from talking to Tess about the book. After Max got away from the white room, he and Liz subsequently went to the cave, where Liz broke up with Max and stopped talking to him. So Liz may have only heard about the book from Maria, who dated Michael, or from Isabel, who had also seen the book. Since she never saw the number of pages in the so-called Destiny book or the few number of symbols it had, she had no reason to think that the translation didnít come from the book. [ 01-01-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-01-2004 09:43 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Tess mindwarped Max in the Crashdown CafÈ, as Max was kissing Liz. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/51ea87e0.jpg She mindwarped him in the school lab, as he walked over to her, to make him think that he kissed her on the lab table. She mindwarped him in the rain, to make him think they had kissed each other. (She mindwarped Liz, as well, to make her think she saw Max kiss Tess in the rain.) IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/557a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/3b8a87e0.jpg
She mindwarped him in an attempt to make him think that they made love together in the field where they talked about the book, the dreams, and Nesado. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/beca87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/beaa87e0.jpg When Tess mindwarped Isabel at the old military hospital to make Isabel think a man carried Tess away, Isabel then knew Tess was responsible for Maxís earlier thoughts about Tess. ISABEL: Oh my god, what just happened?
LIZ: Can you just do that with everyone? Make them see things that aren't even there? Tess mindwarped Max in Season Two also, as is revealed in Season Three. |
Posted 01-01-2004 09:48 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Tess loved Kyle, like a brother. Thatís why she didnít kill him, even though she knew her mindwarps were coming undone. Tess loved Jim like a father. She didnít want him to be alone without Kyle, so again, she didnít kill Kyle, even though she knew it meant that Kyle might tell someone that her repeated mindwarps of Alex resulted in Alexís death. Tess didnít mean for Alex to die, but she didnít want him to tell anyone that he had done the translation in Las Cruces. Tess knew her mindwarps of Alex were coming undone, yet she took no action to kill him to prevent him talking. Rather Tess kept on mindwarping Alex. She mindwarped him multiple times, and unknown to her until too late, his mind weakened from the mindwarps and he died. Max and Tess had been married to each other in their previous lives. They had been in love with each other, before Kivar killed them. Tess loved Max before she ever met him. She wanted him to love her, as she loved him. She was very hurt that he didnít return the love she had for him, when they first met. Tess used mindwarps, when Isabel told Tess at the school lockers that Max said Liz was his soulmate. Tess wanted Max to love her instead of Liz, so she mindwarped Max in an attempt to get him to love her. She also mindwarped Michael and Isabel, because she thought they should be a couple also. Tess didnít murder Liz to get her out of the way, because she really wanted Max to love her. Tess had defied Nasedo, in order to show Max, Michael, and Isabel the place where they had all been born. She thought of them as her family. (Nasedo didnít want the three podsters to know anything about themselves, because he wanted to control them, in order to fulfill his deal with Kivar.) Max disregarded Tess' feelings at the cave, when he pushed her aside to tell Liz that he wanted to be with her, not Tess. He continued to unintentionally hurt Tess, as he stayed away from her over the summer while Liz was in Florida. Max avoided Tess for the most part, until the night Nasedo died. Nasedo had been the only person who cared for Tess during her entire life. Nasedo had only raised her to betray her fellow podmates, but at least he cared about her well-being. Tess wanted to teach Max about their planet, but Max refused, because he hoped to get back together with Liz. When Liz told Max she only wanted to be with normal boys and then proved it by pretending to sleep with Kyle, Max stopped being in love with Liz. Tess thought she had a chance to be with Max. She helped him in every way that she could, because she loved him. She joined her powers with Maxís to hold off the Skins in Copper Summit, while Courtney destroyed the husks. She killed a Skin in the UFO Center, who was about to kill Maria. She killed the many Skins in the high school. She saved the podstersí lives, when Nicholas tried to get the location of the Granilith from Max. Tess helped the others save Earth from the enemy (the Skins) who had overrun Earth and killed everyone in the first timeline. Tess attended the Antarian Planetary System Summit in New York with Max. She supported Max and encouraged him. She held out against Lonnie and Rathís attempts to get the location of the Granilith from her. As Maxís love and respect for Tess were increasing over the months, Tess was increasingly hurt by the fact that Max continued to do things with Liz, even though Tess and Max had been married to each other in their previous lives, and even though Liz had abandoned Max at the cave and had pretended to sleep with Kyle right in front of Maxís eyes. Tess was hurt that Max sat with Liz at the outdoor Christmas Eve Service. Tess was hurt, when Max returned from the airport in Las Vegas to dance with Liz. She was hurt, when Max questioned why she gave him her gift of a sweater at the UFO Center. She was hurt when she saw Max try to help Liz, when Brody/Larek threatened Liz. She was hurt when Max told Brody/Larek that he and Tess werenít in love and that they never had been in love. Tess was also hurt that Max told her he was going to the prom with Liz. He told her as they had been working retrieving memories of their planet in Maxís candlelit bedroom at night. Tess didnít know that Max hadnít initiated the prom date with Liz. She didnít know that they were only going as friends. She didnít know that Max had not told Liz at the prom that he had no feelings for Tess, as he had once told Liz outside Whitakerís office. Liz had been hoping to rekindle things with Max, but Max was unwilling to give up working with Tess, as Liz wanted him to do. Tess was hurt, when Max wanted to talk to Liz, after he failed to heal Alex. Max didnít go to Tess then, even though he had gone to Tess in the night to her bedroom to tell her that he remembered her. Tess was hurt, when she saw that Max had information about Alex that he wanted to give Liz at the gathering in the Whitmanís home, following Alexís funeral. For Tess, Max was always thinking about Liz. She didnít know that Max had agreed with Liz not to let anyone think that Alex had committed suicide, and that he only wanted to show Liz the confidential police file, so she would understand why some people thought Alex was suicidal. Tess loved Max and hoped that he would one day want to go the Antar with her and regain his throne. For Tess, Antar was home, just like for Liz, Earth was home. Tess wanted to return home to Antar, where she would be safe, instead hunted as an alien all her life. Tess loved walking close to Max when they were with Michael and Isabel. She loved studying with him. She loved that he rubbed her foot, sitting very close to her, as they sat together on the floor. She loved showing Max the deserted observatory and talking with him about their planet. Tess loved making love with Max. She was very happy. She loved that Max took her hand in his, as they walked together in the school hallway. Tess was concerned that Max didnít seem to be as happy as she was that she was pregnant. Tess was concerned that Max said he wanted to go to Antar someday, as opposed to saying he wanted to go to Antar as soon as possible. If Max had been super anxious to go to Antar, then it might not have mattered that Tess got Alex to do the translation, and that he had died unexpectedly from her mindwarps. If Max had talked about wanting to regain his throne, then Tess might have been reassured about Maxís goals in life. As it was, Tess knew she had to leave Earth as soon as possible, so her continuing mindwarps wouldnít kill Kyle, as they had Alex. She wanted to go to Antar, every bit as much as Liz later wanted to go away to Northwestern, with or without Max. Tess, like Liz, had been willing to leave Max to do what was most important to her in life. [ 01-01-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-02-2004 01:14 AM by shapeshifter
quote:In season one, Tess was genuinely surprised to learn that Nasedo had killed, and, like the rest of the podsters, seemed to abhor killing. But at the end of the series, in the Crash and 4AAAB episodes, we learn that Tess kills over a dozen people to protect baby Zan. This is a tragic character development. I have long thought that perhaps the writers always intended Tess to follow a path which would parallel Hardy's Tess of the d'Urbervilles. Here is a summary of that classic work from quote: |
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Posted 01-02-2004 07:28 AM by firecracker_izzy
I think that S2 was my fave season- but I've only seen like 3 epps of S3 so I don't really have much 2 go on. My fave epps have 2 be: Viva Las Vegas: I just really luv this ep. Don't have a reason really... they were just all so happy 2gether. The Departure: It tied all the loose ends togther of the season, I feel and Tess left. Summer of '47: The flashbacks- wot can I say I luv em! A Roswell Christmas Carol: I dont have a clue y I luv this episode i just do! LOL Heart Of Mine: I luv the way they were all 2gether as a group and as couples too. Especially the CD scene b4 prom. Cry Your Name: V. sad ep- but I luv it coz u get 2 see how they all deal with Alex's death. My fave couple is Michael/Maria: They are so cute 2gether and I luv their luv/h8 relationship! My least fave couple has 2 b Alex/Isabel, closely followed by Max/Liz. Alex + Izzy were gd as really gr8 friends- but i don't think their was enuf chemistry btween them. As for Max + Liz- I'm probably the most h8d person now on the msg board- but hey I'm just bein honest! boring angst is wot it is 4 me. but i was happy how things turned out at end of S3. Was ne1 else confuddled in VLV- Tess 'n' Liz were friends then weren't they but they were both bein horrible 2 each otha. [ 01-02-2004: Message edited firecracker_izzy ] |
Posted 01-02-2004 07:52 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: borg- I always thought that Tess's brain was a few cards short from a full deck. If a goodbye kiss from Max to Liz, could make Tess snap in an instant and lead Max to his death on Antar, she was more unstable than I thought. Tess had her "King" exactly where she wanted him by using the oldest human trick in the book. What supposedly noble and honorable guy like Max wouldn't stick by a girl who trapped him with a pregnancy? As soon as Tess felt Max pulling away from her or not acting like she wanted, she used "the baby is dying from the atmosphere" card to keep Max in line. Yes, Max and Tess loved each other in TWO lifetimes and not even death could keep them apart. |
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Posted 01-02-2004 07:53 AM by Abducted Bookworm
The Destiny Book was, I think, real. Then they made Tess and Nasedo evil later. Perhaps they decided then "oh no the book was fake" but I doubt they ever thought about it. I think I read Emilie De Ravin did not know her character was going to become evil at the time CYN was filmed. I hate CYN because I hate angst - which is why I hate S2 M/L, despite liking S1 M/L. I loved the Skin episodes. I liked the dupes even more - "Meet the Dupes" was my favorite S2 episode, although "Max in the City" had too many problems for me to like it as much as the other one. (Especially the Larek issue - I believe his advice to Max, to surrender, was an attempt to deceive and use Max. This indicates to me that Isabel and Michael were correct in feeling "the evil within" earlier in the season, although Max was also correct in that Brody is a good person.) I love the relationship that developed between Kyle and Tess. Michael and Maria were great pretty much throughout the season. My biggest disappointment is the stupid offscreen breakup of A/I and the introduction of Grant, in the first of the boring (and worse) older guy/teen relationships on Roswell, along with the reduced role for Alex in the plot arcs. S1 set the stage perfectly for continued A/I romance, as the other two couples and perhaps K/T got together as well. It set the stage perfectly for Alex's role continuing to grow - and his knowledge of politics would have been perfect for him playing a role in the Skin plotline. I think Alex should have been the one to intern for Whitaker. Liz, while smart, seemed specialized in the physical sciences. Alex, despite his computer lore, showed in S&K an interest in and knowledge of politics, and his computer knowledge was never stressed to the degree that Liz's biology and chemistry knowledge was. This would have been especially interesting given Whitaker's search for Vilandra.
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Posted 01-02-2004 07:58 AM by firecracker_izzy
quote: I knew about the mindwarp thing on Max at the end of S2. Just watchin Cry Your Name- Liz is so harsh to Izzy and Max in Alex's bedroom! |
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Posted 01-02-2004 08:49 AM by Ladeia
Whether she was evil at the beginning is still up for debate but Tess wanted the podsters to pair up like she had been told. If Michael and Isabel paired up then they would also pressure Max to be with her. If I remember correctly Tess was also anti-human. She didn't want any of them to be involved with humans. She considered humans beneath her. We can pretty much debate all day if Tess was planning on betraying them from the beginning or if she changed her mind at some point in time but the fact remains Tess used lies and her mind abilities to make the others see things and misguide them from the beginning. Just what she did to Max's head alone is enough to distrust her. Tess was probably smart enough to know that if she killed Liz, nothing would stop Max from finding out how she died. I don't believe Tess ever really loved Max. Maybe she was fixated on what she had been taught but you can't really love someone you've never met and don't know anything about them but a past life incarnate. If she wasn't evil from the beginning then she was definitely misguided. If she wasn't evil than she didn't try to see from their point of view. |
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Posted 01-02-2004 09:36 AM by Citrus and Vine
firecracker_izzy! quote: In Destiny, Max and Isabelís mom explained that the podsters were mixed with human genetic materials so that they could be recreated into human beings. Grandpa Dupree had experiences with aliens, so that could be how his genetic material might have been obtained to produce Michael, who looked just like Grandpa Dupree. I think Tess wanted Michael and Isabel to pair up, because she thought they had been a couple in their past lives. (I agree with Ladeia about Tessí reason for wanting them to pair up.) Tess wanted Max to love her, and if Isabel and Michael paired up, they would be setting an example for what she hoped Max would do with her. Max and she had loved each other in their past lives on Antar, and they had been married to each other at the time of their deaths. Tess hoped they could be together again in this life. I think Tess really was in love with Max, even before they met. I think Max with in love with Liz, even though they werenít friends, before he healed her. Liz hadnít even noticed Maxís interest in her. I agree that you cannot really be in love with someone you donít know. Still, I think Maxís feelings of love for Liz were genuine, even before they starting doing things together. I also think Tess feelings of love for Max were genuine, even before Max and Tess started doing things together. firecracker_izzy, I love Season Two, too! (I love all of the seasons!) I agree with you about Michael and Maria being a great couple! I also agree with you that Alex and Isabel were great friends and that they didnít have much chemistry between them. I donít hate you for thinking Liz and Maxís relationship boring and full of angst. I liked their relationship, but I didnít like that Liz blamed Max for her own feelings and blamed him for getting involved with Tess. I love the episodes that are your favorites, too! They are excellent! shapeshifter! Thanks for the summary on Tess in Hardy's Tess of the d'Urbervilles. Cool! It does sound like she had an extraordinarily bleak life! I always thought that Tess in Roswell caught a lot of bad breaks, too. How different her life might have been, if she had left the podchamber with her podmates. How different her life might have been, if Kal had stayed around to keep Nasedo company, so he wouldnít have made a deal with Kivar, and Tess wouldnít have been separated from Max, Michael, and Isabel. How different Tessí life might have been, if Max had never fallen in love with Liz. How different her life might have been, if all of the podsters had been raised to maximize their knowledge of Antar. Then maybe they would have returned together to free Antar from Kivarís ruthless rule. I agree that Tess was truly horrified to learn that Nasedo had murdered humans, even though Tess didnít consider herself to be human. Nasedo taught her that her human form didnít matter. But somewhere along the way, Tess was able to care about humans, including Kyle and his dad. They cared about Tess without wanting something in return. I think it must have been terrible for Tess to believe that she was hunted all her life by the Special Unit. Nasedo moved her constantly, so she wouldnít form bonds with humans. He needed for her to want to go to Antar, so he could carry out his deal with Kivar. Nasedo didnít have to move Tess at all, if he had wanted Tess to be happy. The Special Unit didnít know anything about Nasedoís whereabouts or anything about Tess. I think if Tess hadnít moved so much, she would likely have fallen in love with a human, just as her podmates fell in love with humans. I think the only reason she didnít was because Nasedo uprooted her so often. [ 01-02-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-02-2004 09:50 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I think guidance is essential to grow to make healthy decisions. Tess was guided all her life by someone who only kept her around to fulfill his deal with Kivar. She knew his behavior towards her was conditional. People need to be raised with unconditional love. They need to know that if they make a mistake, they can recover from it. Tess didn't know that she could have been honest with her fellow podsters from the beginning. She thought she had to maintain Nasedo's help, in order to survive. Lack of a good upbringing produced the unscrupulous Rath and Lonnie, who was told that she had betrayed everyone in her previous life. Michael, too, suffered insecurities from lack of a good upbringing. Like Tess, it took Michael a long time to trust humans. He was upset when he killed Pierce. So again, I really think that Tess had an internal sense of morality that caused her to be upset to learn that Nasedo killed people. |
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Posted 01-02-2004 09:55 AM by Citrus and Vine
Abducted Bookworm! quote: I think the outcome in Season Two was planned before Emilie de Ravin was hired to play Tess. I think Alex's death and Tessí involvement in it were planned from the beginning. In Sexual Healing, the episode before Tess arrived in Roswell, the audience sees an alien holding a baby in the Crashdown CafÈ. Tess first arrived in Roswell in Crazy. In the episode, Alexís death is foreshadowed. The audience sees Alex standing beside the alien holding the baby, as he leaves the cafÈ after he had spoken with Tess. Thunder sounds and lightning flashes through the windows behind him. Outside, Alex is tragically lighted and a cross is framed next to him in the background. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/951a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/955a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/evildead/358/959a87e0.jpg After Alex died, Liz sobs as she looks at photos of Alex. Behind Liz is the alien holding a baby. I thought it was suspicious from the beginning that the book would be in the library wall. I thought if the book were real instead of fake, then Tess would have gone to the podsters directly and shown the book to them. Instead, Tess set things up so Max would watch her at the library. She wanted Max to go to her to ask her about the book. To me, it was an obvious set up. I would think that an honest person would deal honestly and directly with people. It remained to be seen what would unfold in Season Two to explain what motivated Tess to be so circumspect about introducing herself to her podmates. [ 01-02-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-02-2004 10:19 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: ITA!! I also didn't like Max blaming Liz and treating her like crap after she supposedly slept with Kyle. Whether Max knew or not that his Future self was involved, he had no reason to be angry. Also in TEOTW, I didn't like how Maria blamed Michael for being involved with Courtney at her apartment when they hadn't been a couple since Destiny. Maria even cried on Alex's shoulder and Alex being the true friend that he was punched Michael for Maria. So, it seems all the couples that were not together at the time had a problem blaming each other!! |
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Posted 01-02-2004 01:06 PM by Abducted Bookworm
I disagree that Roswell was a sad, angsty and crappy show that early. The enormous continuity gaps surrounding Tess - powers and motivations - and Alex argue against it. The whole development of the first season, the basic premise through to the very end, argue against it. So do behind the scenes revelations - such as that Katims was willing to keep Alex, so long as Colin didn't do any movies and was fine with maybe not being in any episodes after all, even after he turned down all movie offers.
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Posted 01-02-2004 01:25 PM by jjac
First of all, I need to say that I really did not like season 2. I was excited at first thinking that more of the alien past of the podsters was going to be shown, but I was disappointed with what was given. Some intresting points are being made to exlpain away the chads, but I think the chads were what they were - chads! There was never any evidence that there were two destiny books as there never was any evidence that Tess was mindwarping Kyle when she pulled the book from the library wall. They took great pains to show when Tess was mindwarping people and they never showed this as a mindwarp. Tbere is always the old adage - if it wasn't shown it didn't happen! As for Tess not meaning to kill Alex, if you give a person poison to get information out of them knowing all the while that too much poison will kill them and yet you still give them poison, you are knowingly committing a murder. She knew the damage that she was doing and out of desperation continued to do it. She is guilty period. As for Tess deciding to turn Max in only after she saw that Max had kissed Liz, she did not mention this in the pod chamber. She only mentioned that Max's enemies were not hers and the Nacedo had planned their betrayal from the beginning. Tess was a big girl and she knew that Max loved Liz, he told her over and over and over again and she witnessed this herself. Heck, she said so in the pod chamber "Why couldn't you love me like that"? (I am paraphrasing here, go give me a little leeway). Any hurt that she felt was due to her misguided feelings and her own self-delusion. That is not Max's fault. If she had to get pregnant to get her man, she had to face the consequences that he was with her only for the baby's sake. She used this over and over again to gain the advantage over him. Also, the fact that they were the products of a combination of alien and human genetic material suggests that they cannot be expected to be the same people they were in previous lives. The human genetic material has to also play a role in who they developed into. To expect them to behave in the same manner on Earth as they did on Antar was ludicrous. It has already been said that nuture has something to do with the way a being develops. Maybe the plan was for their protectors to raise them, but we all saw how that turned out, one swiftly abandoned his charges while the other plotted for their destruction. Season 2 was filled with so many chads and discrepancies I find it painful to even rewatch. |
Posted 01-02-2004 01:37 PM by Abducted Bookworm
quote: Some excellent points! I particularly like the analogy you make. Although I think there's an extra horror to the very idea of someone else taking over your mind, you are quite right that whether Tess intended Alex's death or not is entirely irrelevant to the morality of her actions. I still find Tess' actions and abilities unforeshadowed up to "Off the Menu" which may be some of the CHADs you mention. There are parts of S2 I can rewatch and enjoy. But unfortunately you are correct that it is plagued throughout, even the best parts, with continuity errors.
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Posted 01-02-2004 01:48 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
jjac- WID and very well said!! |
Posted 01-02-2004 02:31 PM by fetch
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Posted 01-02-2004 02:53 PM by jjac
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Posted 01-02-2004 03:11 PM by Dobson
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Posted 01-02-2004 07:00 PM by locutus of borg
C&V, I understand your impression of Tess. I guess that We'll just have to agree to disagree about her and her motivtions. To me, Tess was ultimate evil incarnate. Lies, deceit and mindwwarping from day one. I believe that she killed Alex because he was a liability to her, and no longer useful. She would have killed Kyle, Jim, Isabel, even Max if it suited her purposes. She was going to turn Max over to Kivar for public execution! She couldn't possibly have been "hurt" or "felt betrayed" by Max, because she had no human feelings or emotions. She couldn't possibly have loved Max because she didn't have the capacity to understand or feel love, or loyalty or friendship. Tess and Max did not make love! "Tex" seduced Max in order to conceive spoT. Once spoT was conceived, she no longer had any use for Max. She didn't kill him, because Kivar wanted the pleasure of doing it himself. I hated Tess from the first episode she appeared in. Too bad Liz didn't kill her. That would have made my day! We are the Borg |
Posted 01-02-2004 07:05 PM by shapeshifter
quote: I'm not sure she knew that it would kill him. Most of Roswell was a metaphor, and I think perhaps that the mindwarp was in part a metaphor for drugs and peer pressure. Typically, small time, youthful drug dealers don't realize that they are ruining lives. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote:Citrus & Vine, I think you and jjac and I are the only fans who believe that the kiss in the rain was a mindwarp. And that's 2 more than the last time I checked. I back up my belief in it being a mindwarp by this line from Destiny: quote:I don't thing Tess used the feminine "her eyes" just to be politically correct, but rather to imply that she had done the same double mindwarp with Max and Liz in the rain. [ 01-03-2004: Message edited shapeshifter ] |
Posted 01-02-2004 07:11 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote:Tess didn't have to see Liz to mindwarp her. Tess was able to mindwarp at a distance without seeing the person she was mindwarping. Tess couldn't see Pierce, when she mindwarped him in the white room. quote: jjac responded to this and I agree with his/her comments. I would like to comment further. Mindwarps only worked if nothing disturbed or contradicted them. When Tess mindwarped the two agents simultaneously to go to Hondo, Max watched one agent, while Tess watched the other agent to make certain that the mindwarps worked. The agent who was inside Kyleís house came out of the mindwarp, when Kyle disrupted the mindwarp. The agent realized that Pierce wasnít in the room. He started to call to check things out with Pierce. Tess stopped the mindwarps in the cafÈ and in the lab. The way she ended the mindwarps led Max to know that what he thought he was doing wasnít real. When Tess stopped the mindwarp at the cafÈ counter, she was asking him if something was caught in her teeth. In the kitchen, Liz disrupted the mindwarp, by asking if Max was ok. Max realized he wasnít really kissing Tess. At school, Max thought he threw Tess on the table and kissed her, but he didnít. Again, Tess broke the mindwarp herself, because she wanted Max to think he was fantasizing about her. Max knew he was in trouble. He couldnít stop the visions. Tessí mindwarps were so real that he believed them, until Tess stopped them or Liz disrupted them. Then he realized that what he thought had been happening wasnít really happening. In the rain, nothing disrupted Tessí mindwarp of Max. Before the mindwarp Max was standing in the rain with Tess. After the mindwarp ended, Max was still standing in the rain with Tess. Max couldnít tell that he hadnít really kissed Tess, because he was standing where he expected to be. Max had just kissed Liz and told her how much he loved her. Tess could see them kissing, as they stood in front of the cafÈ door windows. She didnít want Max to be with Liz. She wanted Max to be with her, so she mindwarped both Max and Liz into thinking she and Max had kissed each other in the rain. Max wasnít in love with Tess. He had no memories of her from their former lives together. Max didnít even notice Tess, when he left the cafÈ. Tess pretended to have car trouble, but she set things up wrong. Steam was pouring from her engine, as though it had overheated. When cars overheat, people open the hood up all the way, so the engine will cool as fast as possible. Tess put down the hood of the car part way, so the hood wouldnít block her view of Max and the cafÈ. She kept the wipers running, again so she could watch Max. Max knew Tess wasnít really having car problems. TESS: Max! My car broke down. Can you believe it? Max knew Tess planned to be there. He knew he didnít want to kiss Tess. He went to Michael. MICHAEL: What are you doing here? Max knew he wasnít responsible for kissing Tess. He knew something was controlling him. It was Tessí mindwarp that controlled Max. He thought he had kissed Tess, but he hadnít. People who are in love donít go around kissing people they donít want to kiss. Max was in love with Liz. Max didnít kiss Tess. He had no feelings for her. He didnít know her. He didnít trust her, when he first met her at his home. The rain kiss was a mindwarp. The visions in the cafÈ and the lab were mindwarps as well.
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Posted 01-02-2004 07:40 PM by Dobson
LOL the steam was probably because they were using heated water in the scene, and that kiss in the rain was something stirring in max, his alieness, not a mindwarp...not everything was a mindwarp.. |
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Posted 01-03-2004 06:39 AM by Roswelldesertsky
I totally agree with Citrus And Vine's last post. Dobson Max' and Tess' kiss in the rain are certain to be mindwarps.The alienness causes only dreams but no actions in reality. |
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Posted 01-03-2004 07:46 AM by Dobson
prove it..I want to see the script where it says tess mindwarps Max and liz into thinking he kissed her.... [ 01-03-2004: Message edited Dobson ] |
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Posted 01-03-2004 08:40 AM by Algieba
Ah, Dobson. "....prove it...." That says it all doesn't it. We all have our theories but before I'll believe something one hundred per cent, I'd like to see it in writing from the script. I might could have accepted the mindwarp theory in the kissing in the rain scene but not when it involved Liz too. She was not even looking out the door when Max and Tess started talking so how did Tess know she would see them? After they begin to kiss and Tess is somewhat occupied, Liz walks to the door and sees them. If they had shown Tess skulking around outside watching Max and Liz through the glass door or ducking down inside the car while she waited, or something, anything that indicated she was scheming I might could have accepted it. We are left to draw our own conclusions and I think it's perfectly natural for viewers to disagree. I like it that Roswell is open to different interpretations. It's a lot more interesting that way. I don't care anymore if someone sees it another way. Science fiction stories often have many confusing facets. It's up to the viewer or reader to figure things out. Citrus. Thanks for those screencaps. I have mentioned the graveyard one as one of my favorite. The scene was very well done. Most graveyard scenes are deliberately spooky and creepy. The candle, the music, the flower, the normal talking without any surprise or shock, the bittersweet dance, all made it seem perfectly natural to be sitting in a cemetary in the middle of the night talking to someone who has passed on. I do not agree that Alex has to be dead. Any psychologist could explain away Alex's appearances to Isabel as her own subconcious need to keep him around. She had no one she felt as comfortable talking with. She couldn't let go of him because she had unresolved issues with him. Alex could still be alive. One way would be similar to what was done on another scifi show. In an episode of Enterprise, one of the crew members is apparently killed. In actuality, a clone had been left in his place and he had been kidnapped and taken aboard a space station that wanted to use his brain for energy. Dr. Flox did some testing on the supposed crewman's body and discovered that although it was a perfect copy of the body, it had one discrepency that proved it was not the real person. The crewman was rescued and brought back, just in the nick of time of course. Scifi allows for many ways out of a normally unsolvable predicament. For example, time travel allows you to undo everything. There are many ways Alex could still be alive, principally the one they used in the Metz book. He was kidnapped and taken to Antar and rescued later in the story. I hope both Alex and Tess are brought back in any continuation of Roswell. I think it is more likely Alex will be returned than Tess because so many fans love Alex. Tess is still my favorite but I'm in the minority. I think your explanations, Citrus, of Tess's actions and feelings are very astute according to the way the story ends up. However, I still love the story of the alien king and queen who lose their lives only to find each other again and have another chance at happiness. I also love the story of the alien boy and human girl who fall in love against all odds. There's so much about Roswell that I love that I can put up with the chads and unresolved plot lines. If Roswell had gone on for many seasons like X-Files, there would have been time to deal with all our questions. |
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Posted 01-03-2004 10:59 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
I like to see a script that says that the aliens were supposed to be the same exact beings that they were on Antar. If that's the case no wonder they were killed on Antar with all the lying, mean-spirited, psychotic, and selfish personalities that were shown to me. Could someone find that script? |
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Posted 01-03-2004 11:16 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Algieba and everyone! quote: Mindwarps donít have to have a person doing anything in particular to be convincing. For example, the agent in Kyleís house wasnít doing anything in particular, when Tess mindwarped him into believing Pierce instructed him to go to Hondo. Tess couldnít even see the agent in Kyleís house, just as she couldnít see Pierce when she mindwarped him. Max watched one agent, while Tess watched the other to ascertain whether or not the mindwarps worked. Tess didnít have to mindwarp Liz at the same time she mindwarped Max. She could have mindwarped Liz at a later time into thinking that she returned to the doors, looked out, and saw Tess and Max kissing. As long as nothing contradicted the mindwarp, Liz would believe Max and Tess really kissed in the rain. On the other hand, Tess could have seen Liz return to the doors and look out, since Tess wasn't really kissing Max, while they talked together. Tess could simultaneously mindwarp two people. Tess couldnít know whether or not her mindwarps worked on Max and Liz, until Liz went to Tessí house to talk to her. Then Tess knew from what Liz said that Liz believed the mindwarp. [ 01-03-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-03-2004 11:24 AM by Citrus and Vine
Dobson, I agree, not everything that happened in Roswell was a mindwarp. You asked to see where in the script it says Tess mindwarps Max and Liz into thinking Max and Tess kiss in the rain. The scripts of each show build on information from previous scripts and lay the foundations for future scripts. Some viewers want each idea spelled out immediately. Otherwise, they are willing to reject ideas that they find incompatible with their wishes for how their favorite character(s) would act or react. I think it unlikely that some people who love Tess or love Liz as one of their favorite characters will be willing to connect information from past scripts and in future scripts to accept that the rain kiss was a mindwarp. (I think those who want Max and Tess to be together believe Tess wouldnít mindwarp him into thinking he kissed her. I think those who think Liz is basically always right believe that Liz would not reject Max, unless he really had kissed Tess in the rain.) That said, I would like to explain why I think the writers intended for the viewers to realize in The White Room, Destiny, and the episodes beyond that the rain kiss was a mindwarp. In the episode Tess, Lies, and Videotape, Max is shown to have uncontrollable romantic thoughts about Tess. The thoughts are more real and intense that what a fantasy would be. The visions Max has in the cafÈ at the counter and in the kitchen and in the school lab are disrupted by conversations. As intense as the visions are, Max knows they are not real, because he is not doing what he thought he was doing in the vision. A disconnection occurs between the real-as-life thoughts he has and what is ongoing when the visions are disrupted. In the rain kiss, the writers show the audience that Max and Tess kiss in the rain as Liz watches. The audience is surprised by this turn of events. Max had just told Liz that he wanted her to know that he has no feelings for Tess. He tells her, ìI look at you, and I know you're the person I'm supposed to be with. I've always known it. What happened here that day, when you got shot, and how that brought us together...it's fate. Look at me. You're the one, Liz...the only one. I could never be with anyone else.î Max walks across the street with the rain pouring down. He is engrossed in his own thoughts. He notices nothing, until Tess calls out to him behind him. Tess tells him that her car broke down. Max doesnít believe her. Max, who is usually helpful and caring towards people, doesnít believe this person he barely knows. He thinks she is lying. Most people would be willing to stop to talk, even if just briefly, to a person stranded in the rain with car problems. Max is tall and strong. Tess is shorter, attractive, and doesnít appear to be a danger to him. Yet he doesnít believe what she says to him. He distrusts her. Max has been a trustworthy person up until this point. The audience believes what he says, based on his behavior in this episode and in past episodes. Max is a stand-up guy, in love with Liz. He wants Liz to be confident in his love for her. Max says that Tess planned to be there and that she was doing something to him. He states firmly, ìI'm with Liz. We belong together. I don't want anyone but her.î They apparently kiss. Max sees himself holding hands with Tess in the desert. The kiss ends. Max asks, ìWho are you?î At this point, the audience could easily believe that Max just had another visionóthis time, a vision within a vision. However, the audience has also seen Liz standing by the door window watching Max and Tess kiss, her face very unhappy. For the audience, there now is no explanation as to how Liz could see the rain kiss and the kiss be Maxís vision. Although Liz has seen things deep inside Max when they kissed in the past, she and Max are not kissing now. In the past Max has gotten flashes from Liz, but he isnít near Liz now. The only thing the audience can think is that Max has inexplicably kissed someone he barely knows in the rain, immediately after telling Tess that he is with Liz, that he and Liz belong together, and that he doesnít want anyone but Liz. Max is greatly upset to think he kissed Tess. It wasnít something he wanted to do. He is unwilling to think that he would do it. It is out of character for him to do such a thing. He goes to Michael for help, even though Michael wasnít helpful at all to him when he was having visions of Tess earlier. Max is desperate to figure out what is going on. To me, the writers want the audience to know that something strange is happening to Max, something not in Maxís control, something that Tess has caused to happen. He tells Michael: MAX: I'm in trouble, Michael. I don't know what's happening to me. At this point, I think some people in the audience believe that Tess compelled Max to unwillingly kiss her in the rain. The flash of them holding hands amid alien symbols in the desert seems to speak of an alien connection between Max and Tess. (Some Tess and Liz fans, however, hold that Max wanted to kiss Tess in the rain, even though he had just kissed Liz and even though he had just told Tess that he and Liz were meant to be and that he didnít want anyone but Liz.) How then to explain how Max and Tess could kiss in the rain while Liz watched, unless Max, willingly or against his will, really kissed Tess in the rain? For many in the audience, there was no other explanation that could account for things at the end of the episode Tess, Lies, and Videotape. For some, the title of the episode is a clue that Tess was responsible for the illusion that she and Max kissed in the rain. For others, including me, there was no evidence until The White Room that the rain kiss, whether compelled by Tess or not, wasnít real. When Michael, Tess, and Isabel go to rescue Max, Tess demonstrates for Isabel what part she will play in the rescue. Tess makes Isabel think that a man carries Tess away, as she screams trying to escape him. When Tess explains what she did, Isabel realizes that Tess was responsible for Max having all those thoughts about Tess. The audience has just learned for the first time that Tess can mindwarp people. When Tess and Liz sit next to each other in the jeep, and Tess mindwarps the two agents simultaneously to think Pierce told them to go to Hondo, then Liz and the audience learn for the first time that Tess has the power to simultaneously make two people think something untrue is true. Liz then knows it is possible that Tess contrived the rain kiss. At this point in time, I think the burden of proof for convincing anyone that the rain kiss was real shifts to the people who still hold that the rain kiss was real. To me, the audience and Liz now know that Tess can mindwarp two people simultaneously. To me, they can remember that Max was in love with Liz, and that Max was very unhappy thinking he had thoughts about Tess and thinking he and Tess kissed in the rain. To me, the rain kiss was a mindwarp and, to me, the writers intended that Liz and the audience know that Max didnít kiss Tess in the rain. I also think that subsequent episodes bear out the writersí intent that the rain kiss was a mindwarp. The audience learns that Max has stayed away Tess as much as possible while Liz was in Florida. Max tells Liz outside Whitakerís office that he has no feelings for Tess and that he has told Tess that. Max tells Maria that he and Tess arenít together, and he asks Maria for advice. Max tells Liz that he coming for her. Max does everything he can think of to win Liz back. To me, Max has consistently chosen to be with Liz exclusively. To me, it would be inconsistent with Maxís behavior for Max to have kissed Tess in the rain. To me, knowing that Tess can mindwarp people offers a more reasonable explanation for why Max and Liz once thought that Tess and Max kissed in the rain. For me, knowing that Tess wanted Max to love her instead of Liz accounts for what motivated Tess to mindwarp Liz and Max into thinking Max and Tess kissed in the rain. At the prom, Max and Tess kiss each other lovingly and lingeringly. It is their first kiss together. Later in time, following Alexís funeral, Tess talks to Max, as he sits very close to her on the floor of her bedroom, messaging her foot. She wonders where they are in their relationship. She mentions the kiss at the prom. She refers to it as ìthe infamous kissî. To me, that is further evidence that the writers intended for the audience to know that the first time Max and Tess ever kissed each other was at the prom. So to me, again, the rain kiss was a mindwarp. I love all the characters of Roswell. I love Maxís relationship with Tess as much as I love Maxís relationship with Liz. I am happy, when two people can find happiness together. To me, Max loved Liz first. When he fell out of love with Liz, he gradually began falling in love with Tess. He admired Tess and respected her. Their love didnít last, because Tess was unwilling to stay on Earth with Max, and because Tess wanted to be a royal on Antar, and because Tess wanted to hurt Max as much as he had unintentionally hurt her. I love that Liz and Max were able to find their way back to each other. Again, I think the rain kiss was mindwarped. I think the writers intended for the audience to know that it was a mindwarp. [ 01-03-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-03-2004 11:52 AM by shapeshifter
quote:Hi Algieba ITA that Alex could be brought back for the reasons you mentioned above. But I also respectfully disagree that fans who love Tess are a minority. Even I, who see my former teenage self in Liz, and believe the kiss in the rain was quite possibly a mindwarp, still think Tess is one of the most fascinating fictional characters to have graced popular culture in our time. |
Posted 01-03-2004 12:15 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Liz doesn't always have to be right in my book and she was never perfect. I love that Liz can stand-up and fight for what she believes in right or wrong. I love the character of Liz, her imperfections, flaws and all. I guess the same thing could be said for those who think Max is basically always right!!
quote: So, are you saying that it's great that KING Max could have "his cake and eat it too?" Max loved Tess because she was there and loyal to him. But, when Tess left him on Earth it was alright for him to run back to Liz with a bogus declaration of love? Max was stuck on Earth and since Liz, his human girl was still available, it was great that he found love again. Please, Liz should have stayed away from Max and moved on with her life. Liz deserved so much more than a tainted and confused little boy(Tess's words not mine). Don't you think if Max truly loved Tess he would have grieved for her or a least shed a tear after her Departure? If Max truly loved Tess, he would have kept her on Earth period. Oh, I forgot the baby was dying from the atmosphere and Max didn't know yet that Tess was lying. The first thing that Max did when Tess blasted off in the Granilith was run back to Liz with lies. Maybe it's just me, but something is definitely wrong with that picture. To me, nothing was ever resolved between Max and Liz, so with Liz marrying Max in the end was a big disappointment to me. But, hey such as life!! [ 01-03-2004: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
Posted 01-03-2004 12:37 PM by Roswelldesertsky
quote: Max never fell out of love with Liz,there's no sign for this statement.He never says anything that could you make think he doesn't love Liz anymore. If you mean any other episode,I'm sorry, but I really don't think that he ever fell out of love with Liz...and I do not think so because Tess says it in "Four Aliens And A Baby".
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Posted 01-03-2004 01:08 PM by Dobson
I don't have the script but here is the mom-o-gram from the transcripts from the Crash down "WOMAN: If you are seeing me now, it means that you are alive and well. I take this form because it will be familiar to you, and it will help you to understand what I am about to say. You have lived before. You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet but your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings. My son, you were the beloved leader of our people. I have sent with you your young bride. My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command. ISABEL: Oh my god, Max. Our mother. WOMAN: Our enemies have come to the Earth. You will know them only by the evil within. Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my arms. I live for that moment. Help us. I love you." Now seems pretty clear to me the intent was that they were the same people, or was this a mindwarp too? |
Posted 01-03-2004 01:24 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
quote: Don't you know, Dobson? Everything concerning Tess at all was a mindwarp. My theory for "why they were expected to be with the same people as before" -- and I'm paraphrasing here -- perhaps the people who created them had foresight! *gasp* Maybe they knew that if the pod squad fell in love with humans, they wouldn't WANT to come back! And hey -- isn't that what happened? |
Posted 01-03-2004 01:35 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: I don't know if the mom-o-gram was a mindwarp Dobson. But, the problem I have is the "mixing with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings." The message doesn't say anything about being recreated into alien/human beings, just human beings. So that really doesn't tell me if the Pod Squad were supposed to be the same exact people that they were on Antar. Especially after being mixed with human genetic materials and being recreated into human beings and not alien beings like they were on Antar. But, maybe I'm just a confused mere human. [ 01-03-2004: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
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Posted 01-03-2004 01:52 PM by Dobson
The bodies were shells to contain the essences....it's not that hard a concept we have religions in the real world that believe souls can be reborn in a new body, and that when the body dies the soul lives on somewhere else..... |
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Posted 01-03-2004 03:04 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Well, if the Pod Squad were supposed to be the same people with the same souls and essences, they sure didn't turn out that way. I feel sorry for the people of Antar to have recreated their saviours with a second chance at life, and they still didn't get it right. Now, the King, the Princess, and the Second-in-Command are riding around in a van and haven't thought twice about their Destiny. Unless "doing good deeds and evading the law" is now considered their Destiny. |
Posted 01-03-2004 03:09 PM by Roswelldesertsky
quote: Why did you ask if this was a mindwarp or not?Which former post do you refer your post to? |
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Posted 01-03-2004 03:24 PM by ukspacegirl
Hi! About the Rain Kiss discussion? I have the script!!! (I bought it on ebay a while ago..)
Max emerges from the cafe into the pouring rain. He stops, shocked, seeing Tess across the street, standing under an awning. Her car is at the curb, hood up, hazards flashing. TESS Max hesitates, then walks over to her. TESS (conít) MAX TESS MAX TESS MAX TESS MAX TESS MAX TESS
MAX TESS MAX TESS MAX TESS
She kisses him back. As they kiss, we see a WHITE FLASH, then another WHITE FLASH. And we see an image; Vasquez rocks (the rock formation fromMichaelís hallucination), then the symbol from the cave painting that is closest to Vasquez Rocks. Then more WHITE FLASHES. Max and Tess look at each other. They are both in shock. Both surprised. TESS(conít) MAX They stand there looking at each other and we REVERSE ON: LIZ Who stands behind the door of the Crashdown, watching. Shocked, crushed. As tears begin to well up, she turns away , and we FADE OUT END OF ACT TWO.
The original script has both Max and Tess taken by surprise. Itís definitely the mysterious alien mojo kicking in. The whole tone of this episode is to introduce Tess as a mysterious new stranger who, just by her proximity, is waking alien things up deep inside the podsters. Max isnít the only one affected, of course. Also we see that Nasedo already has his own plans that he doesnít necessarily keep Tess informed of.. somebodyís been watching Michael, for reasons we donít know, Nasedo has a box of surveillance photos of Max. Tess is sexy and mysterious, and dangerous for that reason. Personally I donít believe this scene was intended to be a mindwarp. It was Maxís alien mojo waking up!! He couldnít help himself! His head was telling him one thing (Liz) and his alien instincts were drawing him to another..Tess. IMHOÖ |
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Posted 01-03-2004 03:29 PM by fetch
Yeah, Algieba, agree.
quote: Max says this to convince himself as much as to convince Liz. He loves Liz and is afraid of his own feelings; he is frightened that a girl he has just met evokes such strong feelings in him. He wants to be with Liz, yet whenever he's around Tess, he feels something for her. He doesn't want to help her because he convinces himself she's danerous. He has no idea she's an alien or his destiny; in his eyes, there's no reason for him to feel such a connection to her, and it scares him. He is certain she must be an enemy or something of the like.
quote: Yeah, again, he's basiclly saying this to himself. Reminding himself that he loves Liz, so he really shouldn't be doing what he's about to do... he's upset that he kissed Tess because he's dissapointed in himself.
quote: I must be blind, then, or one of the people who needs things spelled out for them, because I had no such realaztion, nor did I witness Liz have one.
edited: heh, I wrote blond instead of blind. Such an idiot. [ 01-03-2004: Message edited fetch ] |
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Posted 01-03-2004 03:41 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Thanks ukspacegirl for the script!! Max was drawn to Tess because of his alien Destiny, but I want to know why was Max drawn to Liz? It still was never explained to me why Max recognized Liz at such a young age. Liz was 100% human and had no Destiny with Max and yet he still recognized her and loved her from afar. Does anyone have the actual script from The Pilot? Does it tell you the connection between Max and Liz before he healed her? Unless I was supposed to sweep that scene under the rug like the writers did!! |
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Posted 01-03-2004 03:43 PM by ukspacegirl
[Quote Fetch] I'm glad I'm not the only one who was bummed out that Max and Liz got married at the end. Ch-ch-changes was for me a picture of a dysfunctional couple. What happened to relationships being based on honestly, understanding, etc? Never midn the fact that SHE was the one who kept pushing him away so he could be with Tess... even after she saw them kissing. Jeez, woman. Fetch, I agree with you agreeing with Algeiba. I was also bummed that M/L got married. For many reasons. [ 01-03-2004: Message edited ukspacegirl ] |
Posted 01-03-2004 03:59 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Hi fetch- ITA!! But lets's not forget Future Ass, er, Max that helped Liz in her plan to push Max and Tess together. Liz might have helped change the timeline, but it was PMax's choice and he chose Tess over Liz. So what ever happened after that choice, King Max can also blame himself for the lies and betrayals that were committed. But, I definitely agree with you that Liz should have never married Max because in my opinion, nothing was ever resolved between them. Max and Liz were always honest and trusting with each other and never kept secrets. Liz walked away from Max and left him to his Destiny because she felt it was the right thing to do. Just when she was starting to crack and get back with Max, TEOTW happened and that was the end of Roswell as I knew it!! |
Posted 01-03-2004 04:04 PM by Dobson
quote: LOL agreeing big time with you on this one Sonia |
Posted 01-03-2004 04:21 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Hi Dobson- Yes, we can agree that they pretty much screwed up all the plots that they attempted!! |
Posted 01-03-2004 04:26 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
quote: I agree too....... But nobody cares, I know no one takes me seriously because of my usernames. That's why nobody ever comments on anything I've posted. If the writers had just stuck with one plotline until it was finished, the show would still be on and they could have squeezed at least 5 seasons out of it, IMO. |
Posted 01-03-2004 04:43 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Hi Tess Shipper Whore- I'm sorry you feel that nobody takes you seriously because of your usernames, but I do. Your opinions count just like everyone else's. ITA with you!! If the writers would have just stuck with one plotline until it was finished, Roswell would be still on the air with more seasons too!! |
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Posted 01-03-2004 05:37 PM by Algieba
Hi, fetch. I like what you said about Max trying to convince himself he's really in love with Liz so he talks outloud in the kissing in the rain scene. That's like whistling in the dark. You're so scared you try to put up a brave front to convince yourself of the opposite. That was my thought exactly. Methinks he dost protest too much. Tess Shipper Whore. I know I've responded to your posts before but sometimes I completely agree with someone but don't take the time to say so. You just brought up a point that goes to the heart of the Tess mindwarping theories. If Tess is so powerful that she can mindwarp many people at one time, make the mindwarp strong enough to hold for months at a time, sometimes screw her eyes shut in concentration, other times be wide eyed and doing other tasks, and mindwarp over long distances and through solid walls, why go to so much trouble and spend months maneuvering the royals into voluntarily returning to Antar? It would be easy to trick them into a lot of things with that mindwarp. I just saw Return of the King. It was truly awesome. I would dearly love to see a scene of Max and Liz sitting in a movie theatre watching it and see the look on their faces when the king does what Max didn't do, accepts his destiny and tries to save his people. Would Max flinch? Would he feel any regret for his mother and the others who are awaiting his return? Would he get a picture in his mind of the "....blood in the streets...." that Rath described? |
Posted 01-03-2004 10:06 PM by locutus of borg
quote: Algiebra, ITA! Roswell was wonderful! We are the Borg |
Posted 01-04-2004 12:06 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Most powers have limits. Tess' power to mindwarp had limitations, too. Tess learned from mindwarping that she couldnít mindwarp emotions. She couldnít change how people felt about other people. Otherwise, she and Max would have been a couple, and Tess wouldnít have left Roswell in the first time line. Tess could make people believe some untrue things were true, but she couldnít change peopleís emotions. Mindwarps only remained in effect if nothing contradicted the mindwarp. Liz was able to help Kyle break through his mindwarp, because she realized that Tess had mindwarped Alex and Kyle. With Lizís help, Kyle was able to bring to the surface his memories of how Alex died. Tess couldn't mindwarp people into doing things. She could only mindwarp people into thinking some untrue things were true. After that, the person had free choice about what he or she would do with the information. That's why Tess wasn't able to maneuver the royals into voluntarily returning to Antar. The three had ties to Earth. It took time for Tess to get the translation done, so she could decide how she wanted to handle things. Alex unexpectedly died. Tess got pregnant. She had no other way to be certain she could get to Antar, unless she pretended the baby was dying. Tess needed to have a child by Max, in order to be a Royal on Antar again. She didn't really need to have Max, Michael, or Isabel accompany her, even though that was what Kivar wanted. Just before she was to leave, she saw a flash of Max's goodbye kiss to Liz. She then decided not to tell the others to stay.
quote: Max fell out of love with Liz. Thatís why Future Max disappeared. Words are one way of knowing things about characters, and they are only one way. People generally rely on more than just words to form opinions about the way people really feel. People generally include past information about a person, current facial expressions, body language, and actions to figure out what people really mean by what they say or donít say. At the prom, when Liz hoped to rekindle things, Max didnít say the things that he knew Liz wanted to hear. He didnít tell Liz that he didnít love Tess. He didnít tell Liz that he didnít remember Tess. He didnít act the way she hoped he would act. At the prom, Max knew things were really over between them. Things between them had ended when Liz abandoned Max at the cave. It took Max time to heal from her rejection of him. He had tried for a while to win her back, and he had failed. He had lingering thoughts of Liz, just as anyone has, after a relationship breaks up. People begin to heal, when someone they love leaves them. They begin to heal despite themselves. Max wasnít in love with Liz when he kissed Tess at the prom. People know that when you are in love with someone, you donít kiss another romantically. Otherwise, you are not really in love with the person you thought you were in love with. Liz had rejected Max, after she saw the rain kiss. She didnít believe Max that it could be Tess who was responsible for what happened. Liz knew that people who are truly in love with someone donít go around romantically kissing another. She thought the rain kiss meant that Max didn't really love her. Max only loved Liz and only wanted to be with her. He asked her to have faith in their relationship. Liz was heartbroken over the kiss, but her heart told her that Max wasn't cheating on her. Liz continued her relationship with Max, because he had let her know that he wanted to be with her and not Tess. Liz believed what her heart told her over what she thought she saw with her eyes. When Liz saw Max and Tess kissing each other at the prom, she knew she could not rekindle anything between Max and her. There no longer was anything left to rekindle. She was first angry and later relieved. She left the prom and had fun with Sean lane dancing. She began writing in her diary again, after an absence of almost a year. She wrote, ìBut at least my heart is open. And I'm writing again. I'm feeling. I'm breathing.î Liz and Max moved on with their lives separately, after Liz left Max at the cave. Max fell out of love with Liz, after he saw Liz in bed with Kyle. Max wasnít in love with Liz, when Max and Tess made love together. Liz and Max werenít a couple at all. Max hadnít been romantically involved with Liz for almost a year, before he and Tess made love together. People cannot make love to others when they are truly in love with someone. If they do make love with someone else, then it is a sign that they arenít in love with the person they thought they were in love with. Max had fallen out of love with Liz a long time before he made love to Tess at the observatory. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Youíre welcome for the screencaps, Algieba! Iím grateful to Momo at Momoís Roswell and the people at Roswell Screen Grab Galleries for making them and hosting them. I enjoy seeing them too! I think part of Roswell deals with the idea that peopleís spirits continue beyond death. For example, Rath, Vilandra, Ava, and Zan of Antarís spirits were reborn on Earth in the forms of Michael, Isabel, Tess, and Vilandra. Grandma Glaudiaís spirit stands apart from her body to talk to Liz and comfort her, as Claudia is dying. The father, who died saving his daughter from the out-of-control car, joins his family on Christmas Eve to be with them. Alex talks to Isabel to comfort her after he has died. Although it would be psychologically valid for each of these three human appearances (Claudia, the father, and Alex) to be explained as peopleís desires to talk with the dead, I think in Roswell the intention is that the spirit (ghost or essence) really sees people, listens to them, and speaks to them. In Grandma Claudiaís case, both Max and Liz see Claudia standing outside her body. In the ghost fatherís case, the audience sees the dad smile greatly, as Max works to heal the children. Max isnít looking at the father as he smiles. The audience is shown that the ghost really exists outside of Maxís perception. In Alexís case, Tess acknowledged that her mindwarps had resulted in Alexís death. Kyle remembered that he had carried Alexís dead body to the car. Because I think that Alex was actually with Isabel in spirit, and because Tess acknowledged her part in Alexís death, and because Kyle also saw Alex die, I conclude that Alex Whitman really, physically died. Thus, I donít think that the dead body Max attempted to revive was a substituted clone of Alex. Iím aware that there are cultures that believe in reincarnation. I think it would be possible for Alex to be reincarnated as another person, if future episodes or a movie were made. I think Alex might even have memories of his past life. I think it would be possible for Alexís spirit to take over the body of a person in the process of dying, whose soul is moving on. What I have a difficult time imagining is that Alex could return as Alex Whitman in Alex Whitmanís body again, after he died. I think if Alex came back, he would be reborn as a child or occupy someone elseís body. I am unaware of any way that Alexís dead body, which Alex left for months after his death could be revived. The idea of Alex breaking out of his grave is creepy to me. Perhaps there could be some tissue sample of Alex somewhere that Liz could clone into a new body for Alex to occupy. With the anti-human cloning sentiments currently existing, however, I think it unlikely that such a thing could be done in the U.S. I also think that Tess really died. I think Tess spoke to Liz before she entered the base, to be assured that Liz could stop hating her. I think the reason Tess told Liz that every time she and Max were together, every time they kissed, Max was thinking about Liz, was because she knew Liz hated her and wished her dead. (Liz told Tess twice she would kill her.) I doubt that every moment Max and Tess were together that Max was thinking of Liz. When Max and Tess made love together in the observatory, Tess was radiantly happy. I doubt she would have smiled, if she had seen a flash of Max thinking of Liz then. Tess was truly upset to see a flash of Maxís goodbye kiss to Liz. So I donít think Max was thinking of Liz, when Tess and Max made love, when Max intertwined his fingers in hers walking together in school, when Max looked for apartments for them, or when Max soothed her and cared for her while she was ill during her pregnancy. Otherwise, I donít think Tess would have cared whether or not Max was sure he wanted to go to Antar. I think Tess knew she was going to die, and thatís why she asked Liz, instead of Isabel, to drop her off. Tess didnít want to go to her death, until she did all she could to give Zan the best possible chance for his life. Tess knew Liz and Max were a couple. She believed that Liz would be part of Zanís life. She didnít want Liz to hate Zan, the way Liz hated Tess. When the explosion occurs on the base, after Tess walked away from Liz, I think Tess truly died. I think Tess sacrificed her life to give Zan a better chance in life. I think the fact that Zan awoke and cried aloud signaled that baby Zan was aware of his motherís death. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3e14a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3e16a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3e18a87e0.jpg ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I recently listened to parents speaking to their children about people really being dead when they die. The parents were talking to their children about the need to avoid doing things that could harm themselves or others. Many children have difficulty realizing that the consequences of their actions in many cases may not be reversible. We live in a video age in which characters die numerous times within video games, and then the game is reset to begin again with more available lives for the characters. On television and in movies, actors who die in a show or movie are alive again in a different role. I know that Roswell is entertainment, and that we may wish to avoid the deaths of our beloved characters. Still, I think death is a part of life and a worthwhile theme in Roswell. I doubt that we would really care much if a lesser known character died on Roswell. I think, emotionally speaking, the death of a character we care about is more like what we feel in our lives, when a loved one dies. I think for us to understand the charactersí motives, feelings, and actions, we must be able to relate to things the same way the characters relate. ~~~~~End of Soapbox~~~~~
quote: I agree!!!!!!!
quote: Fiction writers and science fiction writers frequently come up with novel and inventive ideas! ((((((Citrus quickly ducks down to hide, before Abducted can read that Algieba mentioned time travel.)
quote: Me too, and with more favorite characters and stories! [ 01-04-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-04-2004 10:34 AM by Ladeia
quote:
I believe the kiss in the rain was either a mindwarp or she did something to get him to kiss him. If it was something to do with his alien side waking up why didn't it continue into Season 2. Why didn't he continue to have fantasies of Tess? Why didn't he continue to feel the uncontrollable urge to kiss Tess? And how about Michael and Isabel.. they just had a couple of dreams that made Isabel think she was pregnant and suddenly they stopped and never happened again. I just have a hard time believing that Max who was seriously in love with Liz would just kiss Tess right after kissing Liz and then it not happen again until a year later. If it was something in their alien sides then it would have continued to awaken or try to push the couples together and that didn't happen which leads me to believe there was something else as the cause... namely Tess mindwarping. If Nesado hadn't taken Tess and corrupted her, it is quite possible that things would have turned out quite different. I still doubt that Tess and Max would have been a couple, not unless Nesado raised them and forced pairing up down their throats but let's say Tess had also been on that road with the others, she probably would have been raised either by the Evans or adopted by someone else. In that event, more than likely she would have felt the same towards Max that Isabel felt towards Michael. There wouldn't have been any romantic feelings and if they had learned about their supposed destiny they would have already been to the point where they wouldn't be able to see themselves as couples. Maybe that's another reason why Nesado kept Tess separate. If she had been raised with them, she might have only had sibling feelings towards Max and Nesado needed her to seduce him. End long ramble.. |
Posted 01-04-2004 11:01 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I agree, Ladeia!!! I think kids raised together frequently develop sibling feelings for one another, instead of romantic feelings. I think the Antarians who sent the podsters only meant for them to work together to conquer the enemies who had come to Earth, and then return to Antar to free it. The so-called Destiny book was a concoction by Nasedo and Tess. Nasedo wanted the podsters to pair up, because he had a deal with Kivar. Tess wanted the podsters to pair up, because she loved Max and wanted him to be with her, instead of with Liz. ~~~~~~~~~ Few people who meet each other in grade school ever go on to marry each other. Liz and Max didn't actually know each other in grade school, so I think they were able to fall in love with other in high school. I would defend those who point out that Max didn't know Liz very much, when he first noticed her and fell in love with her as a child. I think such love, while intense and meaningful, is still based on idealized thoughts of romance, similar to what Tess felt for Max before she even met him. I think people can be drawn to one another, without knowing each other, but I think such love remains as an idealization of the person, until each of them can get to know each other by spending time together. Liz and Max didn't spend time together as children, so I don't think Max's love for Liz before he healed her was any greater or less than Tess' love for Max before she met him. Both loves were based on what each wished to be true. Only getting together with the objects of their affection could tell them if what they hoped could be true really was true. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I agree with you that Max continued to love Liz, even after she pretended to sleep with Kyle. However, I would draw the distinction between loving someone and being in love with someone. Max loved Liz as a friend and as a very special person he had once been in love with. Max was not in love with Liz when he kissed Tess at the prom. People who are truly in love cannot kiss another person romantically. Otherwise, they are not really in love with the person they thought they were in love with. Future Max disappeared because Max fell out of love with Liz, after he saw Kyle in bed with Liz. FUTURE MAX: It's you I trust. It's you I have faith in, and because it's not just about getting me close to Tess. I need you to help me fall out of love with you. I think most of us here would also fall out of love, if we saw our beloved in bed with another. In addition, Liz had stopped being with Max, when she abandoned him at the cave. Moreover, she told Max she only wanted to be with normal boys. Max wasn't normal. He could never be normal. He was a person of extraterrestrial origins who was different from other humans. Liz proved that she meant what she said, by pretending to have been intimate with Kyle.
IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1207a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1209a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/120ba87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1215a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1217a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1219a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1221a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1223a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1225a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1227a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1229a87e0.jpg
[ 01-04-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-04-2004 12:11 PM by Algieba
Hi, Ladeia and Citrus. Very interesting points you are both making here. As usual, I agree and disagree. I think too, that young people need to know that dead is dead. They see so much fantasy and become very desensitized to death. "Okay, new season, when does my favorite character rise from the dead?" I can remember laughing at horror stories when I was a kid. I rarely laugh now because, as an adult, I can see that life can hold so many real horrors. War is no longer about excitment or thrilling moments. It's about blood and pain and sorrow and so many cruel things that humans do to each other. I was aware of my feelings when I was watching Return of the King in the theatre Saturday. The battle scenes were amazing but I could almost feel the pain of the sword ripping through flesh, the blood spurting out of the dying, the screams of terror. If I was thirteen or fourteen I would not have the experience to relate to what was really going on. I guess that's why the brunt of any war is fought by the young. I still would like to see an invasion of Earth by Antar, but it would be through different eyes than I would have watched it as a young person. Ladeia. I do not believe that Max ever stopped loving Liz but it was the Liz who wouldn't betray him that he loved. I do think he could not get past what he thought Liz had done to him. I think his feelings changed when he thought Liz had betrayed him. She became someone different. She made him think that what he had been feeling about her was a lie. Part of his love for Liz was in what he saw in her as a person. When that changed, his feelings changed. When Max answered Liz's question about if he loved Tess, he spoke truthfully, "Not like I love you" means he loved Tess in some way just not the way he loved Liz. When Max found out that Liz had not slept with Kyle, he realized the Liz he thought he knew and loved was there all along. She never changed. His perception of her changed. I think the Liz that Max loved never left his heart. He longed for her, thought of her, even while he was falling in love with Tess. The same thing happened with Tess. He loved her but the perception of her was also false. When he saw her true self, (according to Departure which I still don't accept) he realized his perception of her was wrong. She wasn't the woman he thought she was. I have known people who have continued to love those who have disappointed them by appearing to be something they were not. I find that, although I can care about someone for what they are, if what I have perceived them to be is so different from what they really are, my feelings change. I feel about them what I would have felt if I had known the real person from the beginning. If Max had known from the beginning that Liz would have done what she did with Kyle, I believe he would not have loved her. For some people sexual fidelity is absolutely necessary. I think Max is one of those people. He repeatedly questioned Liz about it because it was so important to him. Liz in bed with Kyle ruined his feelings for her. When he found out it was untrue, his former feelings surfaced immediately. [ 01-04-2004: Message edited Algieba ] |
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Posted 01-04-2004 01:17 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Ladeia- Great post!!
quote: YOU and some others say that Max and Tess made love at the observatory, if that's what YOU think they did. That's just another scene among others better left to the observation and interpretation of each and every viewer. It still looks bad on Max's character to run back to Liz so fast after sharing such a deep and abiding love with Tess. It also looks doubly bad on Liz that she took Max back after that bogus statement in Busted about "being attracted to someone like him, and now he's over it." I could not believe my ears after Max said that to Liz. I kept praying that Liz would show some dignity and finally kick Max in the balls and forget him. Of course my prayers went unanswered and not only did Liz continue to believe Max's lies, she also helped him with the search to find his son. Such dedication to a guy that never loved and trusted her in the first place. I will never forget River Dog's saying "make sure he deserves your trust" to Liz. I wonder if Liz ever thought about what River Dog said to her because it surely came back to bite her in the ass big time!! So, Max slept with Tess and as soon as she betrayed him, his love for her died in that instant? Please spare me!! Max should have gotten into the Granilith with Tess and his family and left the Earth never to return again. Believe me Liz and Earth would have been so much better off!! Max never loved Liz if he could so easily sleep with Tess, whether he and Liz were together or not. Liz pretended to sleep with Kyle, Liz dated and kissed Sean, and Liz lied to and betrayed Max. But, Liz never slept with anyone else, even Sean in Departure, because Max had broken her heart. Liz didn't go against what she believed in to make herself happy or feel good. So, are you saying that it was alright for Max to sleep with Tess because Liz did it first? I really didn't care that Max slept with Tess, what I did care about was Liz getting back together with Max period after the way he treated her?
quote: I'm sorry, but do you actually believe this statement? In today's world people have sex all the time with other people and most of the times it has nothing to do with being in love, or making love. Take Maria and Michael for instance, Maria used Michael for celebratory sex in Ch-Ch-Changes and it had nothing to do with being in love or making love. If it had been about love, then Maria wouldn't have dumped Michael liked used garbage after it happened.
quote: I never believed for one second Tess's statement to Liz in 4AAAB about "Max was thinking about Liz when they were together." Why would Max need to think about Liz when he had Tess taking care of all his needs? Tess hated Liz just as much as Liz hated Tess, so why would Tess need to cleanse her soul to Liz? Do you really think Tess wanted Liz to care about her son? I definitely don't. Liz and Tess were never friends, so Tess would have been better off with Aunt Isabel driving her to the military base. That's another unbelievable thing that I couldn't accept with Liz driving Tess to the military base in the first place. Liz and Max were both better off without each other in the end. Max was always "the love of Liz's life", but Liz was never "the love of Max's life." Max's love for Liz was a facade, a fixation, that never came to pass. So, it still boggles my mind why Max wanted to marry Liz and why Liz said "yes?" Now, they're both stuck in a loveless marriage with no honesty or trust. I hope a Roswell movie will be made and I see Liz "wake up" from her fog, divorce Max and live her dreams to the fullest. Liz could then go to college and become a Molecular Biologist like she wanted to. Later after pursuing her dreams she can meet her real "dream guy", who will love, trust, and cherish her forever. Then, I could believe Liz's statement "I'm Liz Parker and I'm Happy" in Graduation. I always thought that Max was a noble and honorable guy and I will never forget Liz's words to FMax about "everyone else being second best to him." Liz settled for Max and he turned out to be second best after all. Now, with some having the "as long as Max is happy everything is right in the world" syndrome, he is never held accountable for his actions. Not in my book, Max was a real ass after he and Tess started a relationship and it showed by his actions and decisions. He treated Liz and even Isabel like crap, so count me out on the Max is "King" worshipping. To some Max could have chosen Liz or Tess, and it didn't matter as long as Max was happy right? When I start to see some hold Max accountable for his own actions and decisions, like they constantly do Liz, then maybe I would change my opinion on King Max!! Until then, Max acted like an ass and if it was "Zan" reappearing, I feel sorry for the people of Antar and Earth!! |
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Posted 01-04-2004 07:45 PM by Algieba
Citrus, I want to go back to something you said previously on this thread. I can't keep up with all these new ideas people are coming up with. You said you thought Tess mindwarped Michael and Isabel to have the dreams about being together. When Max asked Tess about it, she seemed surprised to me and wanted to know about the dreams. I know that could have been an act according to many but I thought the explanation that the dreams were meant to awaken their alien side was plausible. It happened at the time when young people would be thinking about choosing a mate. There had to be some point at which their alien nature would make it's appearance whether it was welcomed or not just like puberty. Up until Max, Michael and Isabel met Tess they had been suppressing their powers, not using them enough to make them grow. That's why Tess was so far ahead of them in the strength of their powers. If the dreams were meant to awaken their alien nature and powers, they wouldn't logically continue once their powers were "awakened". Once you get the message from a dream, you stop having that dream or at least that's been my experience. I think Max, Michael and Isabel were more open to using their powers in S2 primarily because they were now ready, prepared. Their alien side had forced it's way out. Also they saw how dangerous it could be for them withouth those powers. They started using their powers more as season 2 unfolded. Max discovered his green protective shield. Isabel was able to best Whitaker. Michael's destructive force became more focused. Their alien side was growing and it's a good thing it did because their enemies were multiplying and closing in. I really do think the dreams awakened something in the hybrids that needed to be awakened if they were going to survive. |
Posted 01-05-2004 01:45 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Yes, ~*Sonia E.*~, I really believe this statement. I really believe that when you are truly in love with someone, you will find that you cannot make love to another person. You will find, I think, that you are utterly repulsed to even consider being with another person. You might fantasize about others, but even if the opportunity arises to have sex with another person, you will find yourself disgusted by the idea. You will refuse to be sexually intimate with another person, because you love the person you are truly in love with so much that you cannot physically be with another person. The entire notion will sicken you. If I understand you correctly, and probably I donít, you say that Liz should never have gotten back with Max, because he went on to be with Tess, after Liz broke up with him for almost a year.
Are the reasons you donít want Liz to be with Max because Max was intimate with someone before he was intimate with Liz, and you think Liz shouldnít marry until after she has already established a highly successful career? Do you think only virgins should marry? Or are you upset because Max knew Liz, before he met Tess, and therefore should have had a lifelong commitment to Liz, even before they graduated from high school, and even though Liz slept with Kyle and dated Sean? When you fall in love with someone, are you going to wait for him forever, if he breaks up with you and sleeps with someone else and dates someone else? Liz broke up with Max. She slept with Kyle (so far as Max knew). She dated Sean. Is what happened to Max what you are willing to have happen to you and still wait for the person who did that to you? Or do you think you (like Max) might be able to find love elsewhere? Again, when you, ~*Sonia E.*~, fall in love with someone, are you going to wait for him forever, if he breaks up with you and sleeps with someone else and dates someone else? |
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Posted 01-05-2004 02:01 AM by ukspacegirl
These are such interesting theories. Being interested in Roswell has led to discussions on - the nature of love, friendship, fidelity, sex before marriage. These are huge issues.. I love reading all the different, tho well-thought-out, points of view here. I think Roswell's characters were very deep, to provoke such debate; also the issues are fairly universal, so people can empathise with the characters. I like that so many people consider the storylines in terms of what they feel the characters would or would not do. I think that's the heart of Roswell..
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Posted 01-05-2004 06:28 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Well, Citrus and Vine let's just agree to disagree. Maybe YOU thought that Max looked happy go lucky before and after he slept with Tess. But, maybe YOU among others are in the minority!! I saw how Max felt before and after sleeping with Tess, again let's just leave it to the interpretation of each and every viewer. If YOU thought that Max was radiantly happy, again good for YOU. I wish everyone in the world had your opinions and views of sleeping with someone because they were only in love with them, or making love. The world would be a much safer and happier place with less unwanted pregnancies, sexually transmitted diseases, and life threatening viruses.
quote: If I understand you correctly, you are saying that Liz should go against everything she believed in whether right or wrong to be with Max? Sorry, Citrus and Vine but if Liz felt Max's actions were questionable about sleeping with Tess, be it 20 years down the line, and didn't trust him after, I say good for her!! Frankly, I didn't care that Max slept with Tess or not, that's his personal problem(like Liz said). What I did care about was how Max treated Liz during and after his relationship with Tess. So, NO Liz should not have gotten back together with Max and moved on with her life away from Max. Again, why should Max always be happy and get everything that he wants? Maybe in your opinion he does, but I have to disagree!!
quote: That's a lot of supposing seeing that it didn't happen like that. But, yes Citrus and Vine it will be perfectly ok for Liz to marry Max, if that's what Liz wanted to do. See there would be no lies and betrayals between Max and Liz. So, I really don't see them having problems with love, trust, and honesty!! Hey, but one never knows because all relationships are different.
quote: Again, Citrus and Vine I don't care about Max sleeping with Tess, that's his personal problem and not mine. If Max doesn't care about losing his virginity before marriage, who am I to judge him? The reasons I don't want Liz to be with Max is because he acted like an ass to her during and after his relationship with Tess. Then he runs back to Liz faster than the blink of an eye with a bogus declaration of love after Tess betrays him. I'm glad that Liz had a higher opinion of losing her virginity to someone she truly loves and not because she's feeling depressed or lost. Yes, Liz should have went to college and established her career. No, Liz should not have married Max period, but I'm sure Max reaped the benefits of Liz "saving herself for him." Liz could have been the last virgin in America, if that's what she wanted to be. If Liz wanted to wait for marriage before losing her virginity, I say good for her!! Now to repeat the question: Do you think only virgins should marry? Or it doesn't matter to you one-way or the other?
quote: Why should I be upset because Max wasn't intelligent enough to know he was being betrayed when he slept with Tess? Max didn't know what a lifelong commitment was in the first place, so I'm sure Liz was better off finding that out the hard way!! Max was with Liz and she betrayed him and he left her, Max was with Tess and she betrayed him and he ran back to Liz. So, really how long does Max's so-called lifelong commitments supposed to last before he finds another girl? The key word here is high school, Max and Liz were teenagers and both allowed to date and see other people since they were not in a relationship together. Now, how far each of them go in that other relationship is up to them? But, whatever decisions and actions that they both made in that other relationship, each should be held accountable for their own choices. Therefore, the popular belief that Liz pushed Max into Tess's arms never washed with me, and never will!! Liz did not sleep with Kyle, but if it makes you feel better and bring her down to Max's level, so be it!! Yes, Liz dated and kissed Sean and I'm happy that she did. Sean made her laugh and smile and feel at ease with herself. I liked Sean and even though he was a juvie, he was a very noble and honorable guy for Liz. Yes, Liz used Sean to break into the school for information on Alex and I didn't like it. I wished Sean would have returned for S3 and been there for Liz when she needed someone, but Kyle was great also!!
quote: Since we are not talking about MY RELATIONSHIP, and Liz and Max's FICTIONAL RELATIONSHIP Citrus and Vine, I don't recall Liz saying that she would wait for Max forever. Liz dated and kissed Sean, so I don't see that as waiting for Max forever. Now, what I do recall is Liz telling Max "that she saved herself for him." Which I took to mean that even though they were seeing other people, she just wasn't going to lose her virginity with the first person that wasn't Max. To me, it means that Liz never gave up hope and thought eventually she and Max would find each other again. Unfortunately, Liz took Max back but it's such a shame that he didn't have the same opinion on losing his virginity with the first person that wasn't Liz!! Yes, according to you Citrus and Vine Max had every reason to sleep with Tess because he loved her and Liz did it first. Again, I'm glad that Liz had a higher opinion of her virtues, and didn't end up sleeping with Sean in Departure. Still, Liz deserved to be happy and after everything that she went through with Max, I just can't see it happening with him. Especially since I wasn't shown anything being resolved between them. So what Max found out that Liz didn't sleep with Kyle in Departure, he was still leaving the Earth with Tess. The only reason Max was stuck on Earth was because Tess betrayed him and the first thing he did was run back to Liz. I really wished Liz would have stood up for herself and told Max to take a hike, but no, Liz with her forgiving heart took Max the ass back!! Do you want to know what Max should have been forgiven for? Max should have asked to be forgiven for treating Liz like crap and never listening to her instincts. Max was not stupid or maybe he was, he always knew that everything was not always as it seemed to appear in Roswell. Hell, he lived most of his life growing up that way!! Yes, Liz was wrong to yell and blame Max for being responsible for Alex's death, but in the end it was his OWN kind responsible for Alex's death anyway. I would still love to know what was FMax's logic for coming back to Earth to change the timeline, when Max still married Liz anyway?
quote: Yes, Citrus and Vine I know all of Liz's faults, decisions, and actions. Thank you for repeatedly bringing them up in each and every one of your posts!! I love the character of Liz, her imperfections, flaws and all, so my opinion of her won't change, not that you're trying too. Now, once you list all of Max's faults, decisions, and actions that came out of his own mouth, then maybe we'll have something to agree on!! Again, I'm not talking about MY RELATIONSHIP Citrus and Vine, I'm talking about Liz and Max's FICTIONAL RELATIONSHIP as shown to me on my TV screen. Max was a big boy and he made his own choice in choosing Tess over Liz. If Max thought that he found love again with Tess then good for him. Just because he put his trust and faith in the wrong people(Nicholas's words not mine), and it came back to bite him in the ass, then he should have learned to deal with his choice alone. Max did not need to run back to Liz with a bogus declaration of love. Max made his bed and he deserved to lie in it. Yes, Liz chose to help Max find his son but she didn't have to live with Max's mistakes. Nobody but Max should have to live with the choices and decisions that HE made. After Max solved his own problems, then if he wanted to start again with Liz after everything was resolved between them, then fine. From what I was shown on my TV screen Liz deserved someone much better than Max and to learn to love again, just like Max did. But, I really hope Liz would think with a clear head and heart before jumping into a sexual relationship on a rebound, just like she did with Sean in Departure.
quote: Again, Citrus and Vine, I'm not talking about MY RELATIONSHIP, I'm talking about Liz and Max's FICTIONAL RELATIONSHIP. But, to answer your question NO I would have moved on with my life like I wanted Liz to do away from Max. I wanted Liz to realize that Max was not worth her heart, trust, and love, if he could give up on them so easily. Almost a year is not a long time for Max to be so easily in love with Tess and sleep with her, no matter what some say. The Max presented to me in S1, was not the same Max that was presented to me in S2 and S3. I'm all for the characters changing, but being completely lobotomized is ridiculous. But, if the Max presented to me in the later seasons was the real Max, then Liz should have run further than Vermont and never looked back. Still, Liz and Max were better off without each other in the end. Maybe my opinion would have changed if I were given answers to questions, and explanations as to why Liz and Max said and did some of the things that were shown to me? But, I wasn't especially with Max and I would have hoped to be given an explanation as to why Max turned into a complete ass and I never was!! I don't think Liz continually lying and betraying Max would cause him to act that out-of-character, but maybe I'm wrong. [ 01-05-2004: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
Posted 01-05-2004 01:21 PM by jjac
quote:
It seems that the writers were specific enough with what they said. They made a point of the fact that the shapeshifters were 100% alien, but were able to shift into human form. The skins were also different. I don't know why they chose to mix the alien DNA with human DNA, but it would seem to me that the podseters were neither 100% alien nor 100% human, but a competely different entity unto themselves. This would also kind of rule out them expected to be 100% of what they were on Antar. Factor in the nuturing and you come up with completely different individuals than those who were Antarian 50 years ago. So, Destiny in and of itself would seem to be a pretty far-fetched notion to individuals who were different and raised differently than they were in another life on another planet. |
Posted 01-05-2004 01:41 PM by jjac
quote:
If they could have planned who they would fall in love with then there never would have been any question about Destiny nor, gasp, an individual's right to fall in love with whomever they want? Or, maybe these were human traits and making them part human brought out these traits? Oh well, who knows what lurks/ed in the minds of the writers of this show! |
Posted 01-05-2004 03:23 PM by Dobson
quote: I never said they executed the plot well, just that in the minds of the person's controlling the plot the hybrids were to be the 4 reborn. You keep focusing on the bodies, and not the use of the term "essence" by the momo-o-gram. Hence why the writers wrote the scene of Max being tested to see if he had the Royal seal. In their minds the Max character was to be considered the King of Antar by his people. Good or bad use of science, philosophy, reliqious beliefs, or whatever, that was their intent. I get you don't like and probably hate the whole Destiny concept, fact remains that is the way the story was told. Same for us Tess lovers, no matter how you look at or reasons you come up with, the fact remains Tess killed Alex, cause that is the way the story was told. It all comes back to that they managed to screw up every plotline they attempted in some way. ETA: If the plan was carried out properly, chances are they would have all been raised the way Tess was raised, and in that scenerio the likelihood of them rejecting who they are would not be that great. This gets back into "What if's?" though.. [ 01-05-2004: Message edited Dobson ] |
Posted 01-05-2004 03:39 PM by jjac
quote: See, I have a problem with, "in the minds of the persons controlling the plot", which is basically your interpretation of what was presented. I do agree with the fact that they screwed it up royally, (no pun intended), to the point where interpretations go from one spectrum to the other depending on what scenario you support. I also get that you support Tess and Max, which is your right and so your interpretations would tend to support their being together. The testing of Max for the royal seal goes by the wayside when you consider that if anything happened to Max, Michael would inherit the seal, which kind of blew the need for the dupes to come and get Max in the first place. All they would have had to do was kill him and then Michael/Rath would have controlled the show. The whole concept of the granolith was moot anyway when they revealed it as a one-time use spaceship, which was of no consequence anyway because Kivar showed a propensity to use wormholes! So, it looks like we agree on at least on one thing - they managed to screw up most plot lines that they presented.
[ 01-05-2004: Message edited jjac ] [ 01-05-2004: Message edited jjac ] |
Posted 01-05-2004 03:43 PM by Abducted Bookworm
quote: I think this is at the root of our disagreements, Algieba. I watch Roswell to be entertained. It isn't entertaining when my second favorite character is written out, killed off, and my favorite character is married to someone I despise. I don't watch television to be taught lessons. I go to school. I read very extensively. But sometimes I really want a break from that - and from reality! I don't believe people are desensitized to death by, say, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I think that Joss Whedon's point of view - that he gives fans what they need - is insufferably arrogant. Unfortunately, I think Jason Katims operated along similar lines. (The difference being that Joss Whedon managed 6 out of 7 great seasons, not 1.5/3, and even Joss Whedon's worst season had a couple truly great episodes.)
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Posted 01-05-2004 03:50 PM by Dobson
Yup, and that is sad that is what this show did to it's viewers, to basicly only be able to agree on that statement. ETA: have you ever seen the movie Altered States? it handles the past life thing in a way that does not insults one's intelligence.. [ 01-05-2004: Message edited Dobson ] |
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Posted 01-05-2004 09:41 PM by Algieba
Hi, Abducted Bookworm. Did you just admit that Tess is your second favorite character? That is so sweet. Since she's my favorite character, it always warms my heart to hear something nice about her. I agree with your reasons for watching shows. I refuse to watch lots of things when I know ahead of time they're going to be sad. However, this was a show for teenagers, which, if you're in college, should be about over for you. My students don't think too deeply, don't read much at all and have issues, lots of issues. They do need to see some real life brought into their TV shows sometimes. Believe me, I understand how you feel about the death of Alex. I get very attached to fictional characters. I still cannot watch 4AAAB all the way through, especially the scene with baby Zan crying out when his mother is killed. I think where we are different though is that I don't get angry much anymore what other people think or say about her. They have different life experiences that allow them to hate somebody, want to see them hurt and suffer. I am a hopeless crusader for the lost and warped among us because I know and see so much about how they came to be what they are. When you have to deal with a mean, hostile teenager but you know that when he was taken as a young child from his abusive mother, he had to be soaked in warm water for a while so his clothes could be peeled off of him without ripping away his blood encrusted skin, you have a different outlook on so called "evil" people. I see Tess as being raised by "a warped and twisted man" just as she said to Kyle. When she started seeing what a loving family was like, she started becoming warm and loving also. I resent it that the show didn't give her the chance to build on that and have a chance at a happy life. I understand your resentment about Alex, an outstanding young man who died when he was only 17 years old, his whole future ripped away before he even had a chance to explore it. What is worse is that it happens all the time in real life. I had a good friend I'd known since the third grade. I walked with him at my high school graduation. He became an emergency technician, trying to save lives. He died trying to break up a fight between one of his friends and some knife wielding drunk. So yes, I agree that seeing it in a make believe story isn't what I'm looking for in entertainment. If someone had told me the plot ahead of time I would have crossed Roswell off my list for television viewing. And that would have been a big loss for me because there is so much good and fun about Roswell. That's what I dwell on now. I still get into an occasional rant about Tess but more often I'm just enjoying what I thought was so great about the show. |
Posted 01-05-2004 09:47 PM by locutus of borg
quote: Not at all! Your opinions matter just as much as anyone else's opinions. After all, that's what this forum is about, opinions! I don't agree with most of your opinions, or tastes,) but I'm glad you're here, and I enjoy reading your posts, whether I agree with them ot not. I hope that you will continue to share your opinions with the rest of us. We are the Borg |
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Posted 01-06-2004 12:08 AM by Citrus and Vine
Sonia, I am not bashing Liz. I understand now that you despise Max for sleeping with Tess. I still do not understand why you think Max should have waited a year or more for Liz to change her mind about him. You say, quote: Max didnít give up on them so easily. Liz gave up on them. Max tried to win her back. Liz didnít try to win Max back. It was up to Liz to not give up on Max. Max did everything he could think of to get back together with Liz. Liz did nothing to get back with Max. |
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Posted 01-06-2004 01:48 AM by Mariarulesalways2
Thought people might be interested in this as it ties into the whole who Tess is named after thing from a couple of pages back. Tess appears to be named after a character named Tess Harding in a famous old movie ( and later Broadway show) called Woman of the Year. The movie starred Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn as Tess and it's pretty sexist. Basically,it's about this incredibly successful and high-achieving woman-Tess- and how all her career success is threatening her marriage to Spencer Tracy, basically because he can't deal with how successful she is and how she doesn't always have time to stroke his ego. The relationship is saved when she makes a mess out of making breakfast. He now feels superior to her and the marriage is saved ( To be fair,I've heard that the Broadway show did ditch the sexism). I'm not exactly sure why Tess was named after her but,given the fame of the old movie and the Broadway show, I'd think the odds are pretty good that she was.
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Posted 01-06-2004 02:01 AM by Mariarulesalways2
quote: Got to agree with you there. I don't really think a fictional TV show like Roswell or Buffy desenitizes people to death either and I really don't think that if a fictional character comes back from the dead, that it somehow means people will take death less seriously in the real world ( Heck, as far as Buffy goes, if you want to get technical about it,what are vampires other than people who've come back from the dead ?). Besides,if I can believe in a bunch of alien/human hybrids in the first place, I don't think that Alex and Tess coming back from apparent deaths is too much to swallow... Best wishes, Scott |
Posted 01-06-2004 08:52 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Citrus and Vine- I didn't say that you were bashing Liz. I said that I've read your posts listing all the things that Liz had done to Max. I also stated that I knew all of Liz's faults already, and that you never list Max's faults. Unless of course, you feel that Max was a SAINT and never did anything wrong. But, I recall some things that came out of Max's own mouth that he knew were mistakes and were wrong. Again, I didn't despise Max for sleeping with Tess. I didn't care that Max slept with Tess, that was his own personal CHOICE. What I didn't like was that Max acted like an ass and treated Liz like crap during and after his relationship with Tess. I never expected Max to wait for Liz period. I expected Max to have the so-called "faith and trust" that FMax supposedly had in Liz. If Max could have a flash of he and Liz's wedding in VLV, then I thought that he was leading up to FMax in the making. But, Max proved me wrong with his choices, actions, and decisions in the end. Liz never gave up on Max period. If Liz had given up on Max, then she wouldn't have wanted to still be his friend and continued to help him with his alien problems. I didn't like Max constantly running after Liz like a lost puppy, but I didn't like Max acting like an ass either. Liz walked away from Max in Destiny. I didn't agree with her choice, but she felt it was the right thing to do. Therefore, Liz broke up with Max and left him alone. Liz also pretended to sleep with Kyle and broke Max's heart and I didn't agree with that either. I won't even go into FMax's part in causing some of Liz's actions and decisions. Even though I didn't agree and like the things that Liz did to Max, she didn't do them to intentionally hurt Max. Liz made her choices, actions, and decisions to help Max, but all it ever caused her and Max was heartache and pain. Both Max and Liz made choices, actions, and decisions that caused each other heartache and pain whether they were a couple or not. So, I still think Liz and Max were both better off without each other in the end. How great is a relationship, especially a marriage, without honesty, trust, and love? I, for one, hate triangles, so I thought that Max being with Liz and Tess was ridiculous. Max made his choice when he chose Tess over Liz so he should have stuck with his choice period. If Max shared a deep and meaningful love with Tess, then why run back to Liz after? I don't care how much some say that people can be in love with more than one person at the same time. If you were deeply in love with the person that you chose to be with, you wouldn't need to run back to the person that constantly lied to and betrayed you period. |
Posted 01-06-2004 11:06 AM by Roswelldesertsky
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Posted 01-06-2004 11:41 AM by Roswelldesertsky
Sonia I have to agree with some of your points.
The situation got even worse...Max didn't know what to do anymore...he was lost.
There was no moment on the show when Max seemed to love Tess with his entire heart,it's possible that his feelings for Liz didn't die, they were just "covered". Sometimes people need some time to find out what they're really feeling... |
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Posted 01-06-2004 11:50 AM by True Daisy lover4ever
Hey guys, I just wanted to join in the discussion about the whole max/liz/tess discussion. I believe that both max and liz made mistakes they both wished that they both can take back. But unfortuantely that they cant.
Now as for max sleeping with tess. Now i am not saying that i condone what he has done, but i believe that when you are in love with someone so closely like that and ur relationship has been through the towel so many times. and you want to try to make it work, but circumstances keeps you from doing that. then the best thing is for you to do, is walk away. i mean at the time that max slept with tess. Him and liz werent even together, i mean granted i wish he kept his viriginty to her, but at the time his feelings for her were unresolved and he was thinking that there was no turning back for him and her and so of course he turns to tess. i wish there was some sort of period with that break instead of having just go to tess like that. but shrugs oh well. |
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Posted 01-06-2004 03:23 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Hmm... where to begin. Algieba, with your last post I understand a lot better where you're coming from. Since you like hearing good things about Tess - I do like her. I found her extremely interesting, and I loved her relationship with Kyle. Aleah is of course correct about my favorite and second favorite character. Scott, we're pretty much in agreement on Buffy as well. Those events really bothered me. He showed with Oz he knew how to write out a character while inflicting a minimum of pain on the audience, while with Tara the opposite seemed to be the point. Plus he gave Joyce's mysterious boyfriend my name he and Katims really are out to get me! That's only paranoia if it isn't true.
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Posted 01-06-2004 04:41 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
quote: Aleah said nothing. That was Roswelldesertsky. I always sort of thought it might have been better if Liz's theories about Alex's death had been wrong altogether.......but with the whole Future Max-timeline thing I guess that wasn't possible.......Blaming Tess was wrong, though! [ 01-06-2004: Message edited Tess Shipper Whore ] |
Posted 01-06-2004 09:20 PM by Abducted Bookworm
quote: But... both your screen names have letters...
And you would have said it! I thought Liz's arguments (even without the FM thing) were extremely convincing. But you're right, it shouldn't have been Tess. And it shouldn't have taken, any more than Max's death did.
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Posted 01-07-2004 06:31 AM by jjac
quote: I was trying to quote your whole post because I wanted to respond to the part about Max trying to convince himself that he loved Liz. I see it a different way. Max knows he loves Liz. He has secretly loved her for a long time and realizes that she also has feelings for him. All of a sudden, he is getting visions about someone he doesn't even know and thoughts about this person that he doesn't really care about. He is wondering what in the hell is going on and in his conversation with Michael says as much. He says that he feels that he is being controlled and thoughts that are not his are being forced on him. This is the basis for Liz going over to the Hardings because she also knows that Max is in love with her and she knows this in her heart. This was also verified in the scene with Isabel and Tess, the fact that Tess was sending images to her brother and making him see and feel things that weren't his own thoughts and feelings. Max did not need to convince himself that he was in love with Liz. Tess was the one that tried to convince Max that he had feelings for her. As for relationships being based on honesty and true feelings, where does this put his relationship with Tess? If ever there were a relationship built on lies and manipulations that was one! [ 01-07-2004: Message edited jjac ] [ 01-07-2004: Message edited jjac ] |
Posted 01-08-2004 07:08 AM by fetch
quote: I'm not saying Max didn't love Liz. But he was telling himself that to convince himself he didnt want to kiss Tess/ He couldn't understand why he felt such a sudden attraction to her when he's in love with Liz. Tess and Max's relationship wasn 't great, either. I agree. Max never really gave her a chance. And Tess knew she'd have him killed by Kivar one day. But when She was actually spending time with Max, she started to change her mind. When Kyle and Jim took her in, she started becoming a good person. In the Departure cut scenes, she tries to tell Max not to go to Antar, and she expresses regret and guilt about killing Alex before anyone even knows. This is only after a few episodes that everyone gave her a chance. They all left her out of everything before that. Plus, we've never TOLD that the Max/Tess relationship is a good one, unlike Max/Liz, which we're constantly being told to love. They get married at the end That's a bit unhealthy. What, because he loves her and says sweet things, that makes everything okay? What kind of message does that send out? There are many teenagers out there in some sort of abusive relationships, and they stay because they're convinced the othr person loves them. And they do. But does that exucse the fact that they kit/put the other down/make them feel bad about themselves? |
Posted 01-08-2004 07:57 AM by jjac
quote: Tess's powers were always stronger than Max, Michael and Isabels' because she was trained and raised by Harding and they had to basically learn on their own. As for cut scenes, if they don't show them in the show, they never happened. Tess's mental status and changes of mind depend on whether you support her or not. Many Tess supporters never saw her as inherently evil in season 1 while her detractors saw the signs. To say she was changing her mind is a matter of interpretation. We never could really know what the characters thought unless they expressed those feelings in words. As for her changing with the Valenti men, that still did not stop her from mindwarping Kyle when she needed to cover her tracks in the murder of Alex. The whole start of the series was when Max saved Liz and the slow blossoming of their relationship. Tess was introduced as an interloper with a tenous previous claim on Max's affection that was never truly verified. As for Max giving her a chance, I don't know if love can be defined in that way. It is a very personal choice and can only be made by the people involved. Either Max felt that way or not. There was no chance involved. Max's and Liz's relationship was complicated at best. They had many problems from the get go and many issues to work out, but what was emphasized was that their feelings about each other were genuine. No tricks or mind-control was involved or necessary for them to care for each other. Would I have ended the series with their marriage? I don't think so, they still had a lot of growing to do, but given the circumstances I think that they would have eventually ended up together. |
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Posted 01-08-2004 08:33 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
jjac- Excellent post!!
quote: fetch- I have to disagree with most of your post. Even though I thought Liz deserved someone better than Max and never should have married him at the end, I never thought Max and Liz had an abusive relationship. Noone told Liz and Max that they had to love each other, Max and Liz fell in love with each other!! Now, if there was ever an abusive, dysfuctional relationship that title goes to Michael and Maria's, no matter how REAL some say their relationship was. Secondly, Max and Tess's relationship was based on a book because they were recreated into human beings after being killed on Antar. Why should Max love Tess and be with her because a book tells him too? Tess might have been Max's Destiny, but he should have had the choice to decide if he wanted to live with that Destiny or not. Again, it all depends on everyone's own perception and which couple that they support to base their own opinion. If it wasn't shown on the screen, then it didn't happen on the show. So, that means I can only go by what I was shown in Departure and the episodes shown prior to that to base my decison on Tess's actions. As it stands Tess was presented to me as "evil" by her actions and the choices made by her regarding Alex, Kyle, Max, and the Pod Squad. If you think that Max and Liz's relationship sent out a bad message to teenagers, then what kind of message did you think that Max and Tess's relationship sent out to teenagers? I didn't think a teenage girl having sex with a guy to intentionally get pregnant and send him to his death was a romantic message at all. All it showed me was that "love" had nothing to do with teenagers having sex and when you don't use protection, it can lead to an unwanted pregnancy. Even though Roswell was a fictional TV series, I didn't like the issues of teenagers having "sex" or "unprotected sex" which can lead to pregnancy, whether the alien abyss was involved or not!! |
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Posted 01-08-2004 10:13 AM by locutus of borg
Sonia, Excellent post! ITA! Max and "Tex" had sex, they never had a relationship. Tess's sole motivation was to conceive spoT. And they sure as hell didn't ever have anything even remotely resembling love. We are the Borg |
Posted 01-08-2004 11:49 AM by shapeshifter
quote:Interesting topic for discussion and sure to generate controversy. Actually, considering that Tess wound up feeling unloved in 4AAB, I guess a very strong message was given against getting your boyfriend to get you pregnant to marry you. Perhaps the 'sending him to his death' part was symbolic for saddling a young man with the responsibilities of fatherhood. However, given that there are a lot of Tess fans, it would seem that the message (if it was intentional) was not entirely received. Perhaps this is because frequently when a girl gets pregnant, it is her life that is effectively cut off, and she is the victim while the father goes off footloose and fancy free. Hence Tess's situation would tend to generate sympathy among fans who have seen such circumstances. |
Posted 01-08-2004 12:15 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Sorry, shapeshifter but I never saw Tess as the victim in a situation that she created by herself(well Max participated also). I surely didn't see Max go off being footloose and fancy free. Max stuck by Tess because she was pregnant and he was leaving the Earth with her. I have seen a lot of circumstances that generate my sympathy regarding teenage pregnancy. But, my opinion in Tess's situation can only be made from what I was shown and heard on my TV screen. So, if Tess intentionally wanted to get pregnant by Max and send him to his death, that garners no sympathy from me. [ 01-08-2004: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
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Posted 01-08-2004 02:04 PM by Lizzy-ann
Hi Look I have been reading this wonderful thread for a couple of days now. Just wanted to state someone on an earlier page.. I can't stand it anymore.. can I just ask all of you out there Why couldn't Tess just ask Alex to help her out with the translation or even ask all of the them including Liz etc to help her. I just don't understand Well I look forward to your thoughts on this. |
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Posted 01-08-2004 08:37 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Lizzy, that's a good question. No answer to it has ever come close to satisfying me. I think the simple answer is - no good reason, except an absurd plot required it. Neither the murder of Alex nor Tess becoming evil made sense. I agree with Sonia that Tess, having deliberately gotten pregnant, was not the victim. She was doing something very wrong there. Max had not, as far as we were ever shown, agreed to a long term relationship. She was trying to force him into one.
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Posted 01-08-2004 09:58 PM by shapeshifter
For the record, I never saw Tess as a victim either--unless, perhaps, a victim of poor parenting. |
Posted 01-08-2004 11:19 PM by Mariarulesalways2
quote: I've been wondering that for a long time, too. No matter what your views on Tess's character, whether she
Scott |
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Posted 01-08-2004 11:28 PM by Mariarulesalways2
Scott, we're pretty much in agreement on Buffy as well. Those events really bothered me. He showed with Oz he knew how to write out a character while inflicting a minimum of pain on the audience, while with Tara the opposite seemed to be the point. Plus he gave Joyce's mysterious boyfriend my name he and Katims really are out to get me! That's only paranoia if it isn't true. [/QB][/QUOTE] Excellent point about Oz! Oz was left in good condition and Oz fans could at least imagine his further adventures. I really wish he'd done that with Tara and Joyce ( okay, I wish they hadn't left at all but if they had to leave...). Best wishes, Scott |
Posted 01-09-2004 06:41 AM by jjac
quote:
Yes parenting does play a role in who we become. But at some point we have to make our own choices and take responsibilty for our own actions. [ 01-09-2004: Message edited jjac ] |
Posted 01-09-2004 01:29 PM by locutus of borg
quote: That, my friend, is wisdom! We are the Borg [ 01-09-2004: Message edited locutus of borg ] |
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Posted 01-09-2004 02:41 PM by teetee419
hi everyone. Enjoying the discussion very much. So much controversy about Max, Liz and Tess. Sonia I think I know what you're saying, Max should be accountable and responsible for his actions, right? He shouldn't expect Liz to bend over backwards and fall at his feet to make him happy after he betrayed her in the worst way possible. I thought that myself, he needed to grovel a little, no I felt a lot more than he did to make amends to Liz. No matter what the reason he slept with Tess, mind warp or no, he should have apologized profusely to Liz and had to prove himself worthy to have her back again. That and I often thought his character as far as the king scenario is concerned was somewhat spinless and wussy. You can't be the leader of everyone and fall back on immature-behavior when it suits you. Of course the fact that he was a 17 year old is a major reason I suppose for that one. I think Max did love Liz, made a mistake but didn't make near the amends in the relationship with Liz. I often felt sorry for Tess for being such an odd person out and realizing that she had nasedo filling her head with stuff for years. She fought, and fought underhanded and dirty (mind warps etc) but I think because she was programmed to believe this is what she had to do. I loved her relationship with Kyle and wanted the writers to develop that more. Keep up the great discussion. I won't be able to stop back until after the weekend because my computer at home doesn't allow me into fan forum, it freezes all the time. But I'll stop back on Monday. Have a great weekend all. Teetee |
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Posted 01-09-2004 02:44 PM by teetee419
Sorry one last thing. jjac you made a very good point and I agree it is wisdom. There is a point that we are responsible for our actions, do you think Tess tried to make amends when she sacraficed herself at the end? Teetee |
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Posted 01-09-2004 03:58 PM by jjac
teetee, The problem that I have with her sacrificing herself at the end is that she took a lot of innocent lives with her. |
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Posted 01-09-2004 04:09 PM by Dobson
Liz drove her there....... |
Posted 01-09-2004 05:06 PM by jjac
quote: ...but had no idea what she planned to do. |
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Posted 01-09-2004 05:17 PM by Dobson
from graduation: [The story opens at the Crashdown. Liz is working an evening shift. Max is at the counter, lingering over a basket of fries and a coffee cup. There is only one other customer - a woman sitting at one of the tables. Liz is looking around the Crashdown. She sees a used newspaper with a headline about the explosion at Rogers Air Force Base.] Liz Voice Over: I'm not religious, but I've been to church. ...I know right from wrong. And I know it's wrong to benefit in any way from someone else's passing. But I won't deny that Tess' death has freed me. Like a dark shadow passed over the sun before the light came flooding back. It's a brand new day, full of possibilities and hope. I haven't felt like that in a long... long time. yeah she seems real sad about all those people..She's only concerned with her own self |
Posted 01-09-2004 05:35 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: I tell ya it was all an "accident" done by the writers. Like Tess killing Alex was an "accident", and Max sleeping with Tess was an "accident", and Michael staying on Earth for Maria was an "accident", and Liz driving Tess to the military base was an "accident", and Isabel marrying Jesse was "accident." See all these "accidents" were done by the "evil" writers of Roswell!! |
Posted 01-09-2004 06:01 PM by jjac
quote: It doesn't sound to me as if she is referring to the people at the air force base, but only about Tess. She is glad that Tess is gone and I don't blame her. So, would it have made you feel better if she was seen grieving for all of the people that Tess killed? Oh, that's right, Tess was not at fault. Everything bad that she did and all of the unhappiness that she gave others was always because she was raised wrong, or they never gave her a chance or Kivar made her do it or Nacedo influenced her. Wait, I know! It was all Liz's fault because she drove her to the air force base! Liz knew what she was going to do and just let it happen, and had the NERVE to be glad that Tess was finally gone out of their lives. What cruelty, what heartlessness, what a load of crock! |
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Posted 01-09-2004 06:22 PM by Dobson
I have no desire to start fighting over a a bunch of characters of which all were written badly...you have your likes and dislikes of the show as I have mine..we can go back and forth but nothing is gonna change our postitions. I'm sorry they ruined the show for so many of us. I'v enjoyed our back and forth's jjac, but we are too polerized in our views of the show to do anything but argue with each other. |
Posted 01-09-2004 07:01 PM by jjac
quote: Dobson, You have been around for a long time as have I. We have seen the show go from bad to worse and at least can agree that the sci fi was very badly handled as were the characters. A lot of times I waver when I read the threads as to wheter or not I should voice my opinion. I am under no illusion that I can change anyone's opinion. I do feel, however that sometimes reading and debating can lead one to look at something in a different way. I don't think that my opinion of the character of Tess will change as I am sure yours of Max and Liz will not change. It is good, however to at least put the different views out there as they can make for some interesting discussions that go beyond a silly television show. Maybe we should just leave it at that. |
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Posted 01-09-2004 07:48 PM by mesmerized
Bad parenting the result of Tess being a screwed up mindwarping murdering tramp. I don't think so. Michael has more ligitimate claim in that area. He has the scar to proved it too. But he never ended up being a criminal. Maybe if Tess was not so attached to her alien high and mighty attitude she could have assimilated herself in the human side of her world. She was so adamant to go back to Antar with Max child and the rest of the crew. Why did she come back. Is'nt she the queen and one more question. Why is her child all too human. And not an ounce of alien thing in him. Another fine and mighty chad that the crappy writer laid for us. |
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Posted 01-09-2004 08:07 PM by shapeshifter
I recently got dragged off by my family to see a Julia Roberts movie, Mona Lisa Smile, which had a character who reminded me of Tess as I had wanted her to turn out. For those of you who have seen the flick, the character is Betty, played by Kirsten Dunst. Throughout most of the movie she is a very disagreeable girl whose mother is manipulative and coniving, and Betty takes out her frustration on any unsuspecting target. In the end she rejects her mother's ways and makes friends with all the female characters she had alienated. As a parent myself, it's interesting to see the different results of different types of 'bad parents' as portrayed in Roswell. It's also interesting to compare and contrast Nasedo with Hank.
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Posted 01-09-2004 08:31 PM by Algieba
It always bothered me when one of the group made a decision to keep something from the others that affected everyone. Liz got it started when she went to Michael to warn him that Topolsky was asking questions about him. She just assumed she knew better what to do for Michael than Max and Isabel who had known him years longer than her. Michael went to meet Topolsky without telling the others after they had agreed not to trust her. Max kept the drawings on the cave and many other things to himself. Isabel kept her knowledge of Vilandra a secret. She concealed Khivar's presence on Earth so she could enjoy her honeymoon. Tess could have asked Alex to help her decode the book. It might have taken longer and been inconvenient but that super computer that Alex used wasn't the only option. Liz agreed to drive Tess to the base after the group had agreed to protect Tess. I agree Liz didn't know exactly what Tess was going to do but would the others have thought it wise to turn Tess loose on military base? What if she had been captured instead of being conveniently killed? Why did they bother to discuss anything and then go do what they decided on their own to do anyway? Seems like disaster always followed these acts of hubris. |
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Posted 01-10-2004 12:23 PM by Citrus and Vine
Everyone! quote: Liz didnít grovel or make amends for abandoning Max at the cave and going to bed with Kyle. She abandoned Max at the cave and went to bed with Kyle, long before Max and Tess became intimate. Liz never apologized to Max profusely for what she did. She never proved herself worthy to have Max back again. By her words and actions, Liz showed Max that the appropriate response after going to bed with another, after breaking up, was to say very little about the matter. Maxís response mirrored Lizís response, after she had gone to bed with Kyle. Liz never groveled, made amends, or proved herself worthy to be with Max again. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
quote: Tess came back because she loved her child more than staying on Antar. Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan. So Tess fled to Earth with Zan to save his life. The alien hybrids (Isabel, Tess, Michael, and Max) were a combination of human and alien factors. Human cells and alien cells didnít normally mix very well. Gandarium was used to help bridge the differences. Because Gandarium was usually needed, itís possible that only human factors would line up with human factors and alien factors would line up with alien factors, when the aliens reproduced. Thus, itís possible that fully human or fully Antarian offspring would be most likely produced from alien-human hybrid matings. It might be an exception for an alien-human offspring to be produced. Kivar didnít keep Tess on Antar to produce a child with him or some other Antarian. Although Tess was royal, she was not a lineal Royal. Only Max and Isabel were lineal royals. Kivar needed a lineal royal heir from Max or Isabel to legitimatize his rule on Antar. Thatís why the drawings in the so-called ìDestiny Bookî had pregnancy drawings of the podsters. Kivar needed a child from Max or Isabel to improve his status. A child who was fully human, though, was unacceptable to the Antarians. Kivar wanted a lineal royal heir who had some Antarian blood. Zan was completely human. __________________________ IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3cb9a87e0.jpg [ 01-10-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-10-2004 03:38 PM by Algieba
I'm aware that some posters think other posters views are a "load of crock" but I like to hear what others think whether I agree with them or not. Some people won't post on certain threads because their ideas are trashed as worthless so I hope this thread doesn't become like that. Hi, mesmerized. You brought up a point that I've always wondered about. I've never understood why Michael got away with some of the things he did without fans getting up in arms the way they did over Tess. Michael was all set to kill the man Khivar had possessed in Interruptus. He wasn't concerned with the human who had gotten caught up in the alien chaos through no fault of his own. Max had to be the one to insist that Khivar be gotten out of Denny somehow before they acted against Khivar but Michael showed no such restraint. Denny was an innocent bystander. I'm sure his death at Michael's hands would have led his wife to think of Michael in the same way as so many think of Tess for causing Alex's death. Yet there was no outcry. Why the double standard? Michael was also going to kill Jesse in WDAMYK. He was prevented from doing so only in the nick of time by Max throwing him against a wall. Isabel pleaded with Michael not to kill Jesse but that wasn't going to stop him. I don't understand why no one called Michael a killer. Because that's what he was. He tried to kill people but was stopped by his friends. If those friends had not been there the way they were not there for Tess, we would have a show where Michael had killed a totally innocent human being who had done nothing wrong to anyone and another totally innocent human being who was the much loved husband of Isabel. The only difference I can see is that Michael was loved and helped by his friends. Tess was not. I don't think that makes him any less a killer than Tess. He was just fortunate that he had people around him who cared enough about him to stop him from what he would later regret and also who forgave him for his "crimes". Citrus. I never thought about the lack of Gandarium when the hybrids tried to reproduce. It is interesting that without the "bridge", they might, as you said, have only been able to produce an all alien or all human offspring. I still think Kal reacting to Max telling him that he had a son by saying "You mated with another alien hybrid" indicates that possibly hybrids needed to mate with a hybrid to produce offspring. Otherwise, how would Kal know he mated with a hybrid and not a human. Thanks for one of my favorite pictures of Max, Tess and Zan. |
Posted 01-10-2004 03:49 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Liz never had to apologize or grovel to Max after pretending to sleep with Kyle. Liz broke up with Max at the cave, so it was none of Max's business what Liz and Kyle did. Just like it was none of Liz's business that Max slept with Tess. But, I didn't see either Max or Liz feel that way since they BOTH were questioning each other about said events. Since it was Max that was repeatedly trying to get back with Liz after she left him at the cave to follow his Destiny. Then Max ran back to Liz as soon as Tess blasted off in the Granilith in Departure, evidently he wanted to explain his feelings and actions to Liz. Liz didn't need to prove herself to be worthy with Max again because Liz never acted like an ass and treated Max like crap. Max's response did not mirror Liz's about his reason for sleeping with Tess, I certainly didn't hear Liz saying Max "meeting someone, someone like me, it attracted me. I admit that. It was something I had to find out about, and now I'm over it" about Kyle or Sean. To me, that line alone made Max look weak and showed exactly what he thought and felt about Tess. Max was much better off not saying anything and keeping his mouth shut if that's all he could come up with. Still, after everything that was shown to me regarding Max and Liz's relationship, nothing was ever resolved between them. Therefore, they both should have went their separate ways and never should have gotten married in the end. |
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Posted 01-10-2004 04:14 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hey Algieba, ~*Sonia E.*~, and Lizzy-ann!
quote: I agree. Having good support can make a world of difference to people!
quote: That's one way to explain Kal's reaction. However, Kal knew Liz and Max were together, and Liz didn't have a baby or go to Antar. So he surmised that Liz wasn't an alien hybrid. (Only an alien-hybrid mother would have a reason to go to Antar.) There were four known alien-hybrid females on Earth. Isabel, Tess, Lonnie, and Ava. So there were four possible candidates for being the baby's mother. Kal didn't know who the mother was, so he merely stated, "You mated with an alien-hybrid." Kal realized that only if the mother were an alien hybrid would Max need a spaceship. Humans mothers would be unlikely to take off for Antar.
quote: In Roswell, some of the characters are self-protective and do not tell others things that they should be told. Tess didnít tell the podsters that she had been raised all her life to betray them. She didnít tell them about getting the translation done. Both are things that Tess should have told her podmates. Isabel had a secret she didnít tell her podmates, either. She didnít tell them that Whitaker told her that she (as Vilandra) had betrayed everyone in her former life. That was something Isabel should have told her podmates. If she had, they might have been able to convince her that something was wrong with that idea. Max knew something was bothering Isabel and asked her about it. Isabel refused to talk to Max about it. (She was willing to discuss it with Lonnie, though.) Because Isabel talked to the wrong person, Lonnie was able to exploit the secret to get Max to go to New York. Max was almost killed by Lonnie. So, Isabelís self-protectiveness in keeping important things secret almost cost Max his life. Liz had a secret she didnít tell people who needed to know. Liz didnít tell the aliens about the visit from Future Max, which convinced her to make Max fall out of love with her. After Alex died, Liz told no one she helped change the timeline, which resulted in Alexís death. Liz was self-protective and didnít want anyone else to know what she had done. If Liz had told the others that Alex had lived longer in the first timeline, then itís possible that everyone would have worked with Liz sooner to figure out how Alex died. As it was, Liz headed to Sweden alone, without telling her parents, because she didnít want them to know what she was doing. Leanna was almost killed by Max. Isabel and Max almost left Earth forever, to be handed over to Kivar, who had killed them in their previous lives. Sometimes, people arenít open with others, because they donít want other people to know things about themselves. Tess, Isabel, and Liz all kept secret things they should have told others. Tess convinced Alex to do the translation in secret, so she could find out what was in the translation first, before telling anyone else. (I think itís likely that Alex did the translation as a surprise for Isabel.) Tess didnít know what would be in the translation. Perhaps, Nasedo had told Tess something bad about herself in her previous life, which she thought might be revealed in the translation, something that might make her podmates reject her. Nasedo must have told Tess something that he could use to convince her that she should betray her podmates. Otherwise, he wouldnít ever be able to convince her to betray the others to Kivar. Something that Nasedo told Tess must have caused Tess to have doubts about herself and be self-protective. Otherwise, Tess would just grow up wanting to be Queen with Max again. So Nasedo must have figured a way of keeping Tess from wanting to talk to Max, Michael, and Isabel about Nasedoís deal with Kivar. Sometimes, itís easy to manipulate people, if they donít know the real truth. Nasedo raised Tess from birth to betray Max, Michael, and Isabel. He must have said something to her, so that (Nasedo hoped) she wouldnít fall in love with Max. He must have figured a way he thought would convince Tess to betray Max, as well as Michael and Isabel. Letís suppose that Nasedo taught Tess that she was the one who betrayed everyone to Kivar. Suppose he told Tess that she had been in love with Kivar in her previous life, and that Tess was accidentally killed with the others. Tess was the one podster Nasedo had control over. He could tell her anything, and she had no way to verify what he told her. If Nasedo taught Tess that it was she (instead of Isabel) who betrayed everyone to Kivar, then Tess might have become as self-protective as Isabel had been. She might have wanted to read what was in the translation first, to discover what it said. The book Tess had given her fellow podsters was not the source for the translation Alex did. (That book was small, with large characters, and few pages. The translation was a stack of pages on paper with many small lines, very close together.) Nasedo never taught Tess how to read Antarian, so Tess had Alex translate the material she had. She wanted to read what was in the translation, before telling the others anything about it. [ 01-10-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-10-2004 04:18 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Algieba, good points about secrets. I disgree on specifics - Isabel had good reason not to tell King Max about Vilandra, especially as she had no actual knowledge (everything she was told was psychological warfare against her and the others). But in general, and especially regarding what Liz did in going off alone with Tess, I agree. However, I disgree - very strongly - with your comparison of Michael and Tess. Michael wanted to stop Kivar, who was possessing an innocent human. I'd rather be dead than have someone controlling my mind and body. In any case, sometimes innocent people die in war. If there had been no other way to stop Kivar, they'd have had to do that - but Michael was open to other options. According to OTM and "Departure," Tess tortured Alex to death, with no justification. As for Jesse... Michael should have killed the bastard! Ahem. Well, I guess not, but it sure would have been fun to see! The rest of the season would have become a lot more bearable.
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Posted 01-10-2004 08:45 PM by shapeshifter
quote:This is a very interesting example of some of the scifi that got glossed over because Season 3 was never rerun until the SciFi channel did it, and then only once during the day. We never really had a chance to discuss it. Good points Citrus & Algieba. If both are true (and it seems they would be), then to have offspring, a hybrid needs to mate with another hybrid and/or have Gandarium. Another scifi point to consider is Michael's comment to Max in Max to the Max:
Okay. Imagination now running wild. We learn that Zan is really Tess's baby with Kyle, and Max & Liz have a little girl who grows up and falls in love with Zan. |
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Posted 01-11-2004 12:47 AM by mesmerized
In defense of Michael. He never kill to hide his wrong doing like Tess does. He was a great soldier and he still had the DNA to prove that. He's main purpose is to protect everyone in the group. That's why his motto is like shoot first ask questions later. And Algieba. as for Liz's going to warn Michael about Topolsky without Isabel and Max's aproval. I don't think she knows Michael will react immedietely. She does'nt know him. I can't blame her if she does. After Max saved her she carries this burden of trying to keep them safe. because she knows that when Max saved her he risk not ony his life but that of Michael and Isabels. She's part of the this group now wether she or anyone likes it or not she has a risponsibility to them. |
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Posted 01-11-2004 05:15 AM by Citrus and Vine
hey, mesmerized!
quote: We have no way of knowing how the genetics of reproduction worked in the alien-human hybrids. Alien genetics and alien-human hybrid genetics might work on a different model from human genetics. Again, it may possible that the human qualities in the hybrids would only line up with other human qualities, and the alien qualities in hybrids would only line up with alien qualities. We donít know how reproductive cells are produced in hybrids. We only know that hybrids are different from humans, and that hybrids have special powers. So in that regard, anything might be possible. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I think understanding how the seal worked might answer some of your questions, mesmerized. When Max died healing Clayton, his essence moved into Claytonís body. Max was still Max and he was still royal, but the seal did not transfer over to Claytonís body. The seal could move from one body to another, as shown when the seal appeared on Michael. But the seal didnít enter Claytonís body along with Max. Thatís because Clayton was completely human. For someone to carry the seal, the person had to have some Antarian blood in him/her. (Later, Max's Clayton-based body grew Antarian characteristics, like Max's original body had, so Max was able to take back the seal.) Baby Zan, like Clayton, also had no Antarian blood. So the seal wouldnít pass on to Zan, after Maxís death. Zan would never be an Antarian king, because he was human and couldnít carry the seal, which identified the king. Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan, because Zan was Maxís child. Kivar didnít want anyone to follow Zan, even if Zan had no Antarian blood and couldnít be king of Antar. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ shapeshifter, I think alien-human hybrids could have their own biological children with humans, even without the use of Gandarium. Baby Zan is completely human, so if Maxís sperm that carried only human qualities united with a human egg, a viable offspring would be produced. The child would be human. Liz and Max could have a human child. Larek said that ìusuallyî human cells and alien cells didnít mix very well, which leaves open the possibility that on rare occasions, such a thing might be possible, even without the use of Gandarium. So it might be possible that, as rare as it would be, Max and Liz and/or Isabel and Jesse might produce a child that is an alien-human hybrid. In terms of Liz and Max having children or Isabel and Jesse having children, I think either or both are possible. The children might be their own genetic children, or perhaps the couples might adopt. I, of course, would like for Max and baby Zan to meet again. I love their relationship. Some adopted children want to find their biological parents. I think Max would be a good parent to Zan, if circumstances brought them together again. Even if Zan remained with his adoptive parents, I think it would be cool for Zan and Max to know each other, and, perhaps, be a part of one anotherís lives. Max wondered about his parents ìout thereî, so I think he would also understand that Zan might want to know him. Like some fans, I was sad to see Zan and Max separate. I also think that Zan would want to know about his mother, and I think that Max would be a good person to tell him about her. I always hoped that part of the memory Max gave Zan included some memory of Zanís mother Tess and how much she loved him. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Algieba, I struggle to try to say why I also wish the others had been there for Tess, the way they were for Michael. I'm always fearful that anything I say will bring on more attacks against Tess. Arggg! Every time I try to explain what I think on the matter, it just won't come out! [ 01-11-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-11-2004 05:31 AM by sHobhnA GuerIn CRAZY CANDY
Citrus. I have my issues with Tess too, but lately I've begun to understand her better. I think it's because I read all the posts you write about her. |
Posted 01-11-2004 08:06 AM by fetch
quote: I think it's really too bad they decided to cut the Departure thing. The way it was shown was trying to force everyone into thinking Tess was evil, instead of showing us that someone could do bad things but still not be evil (which, OT, is what I love about Harry Potter- that it shows that not everyone on the "good" side is a good person and vice versa. See snape, Umbridge, etc. And how Tom Riddle was a great kid who turned out, well, Voldemort). I know Tess started out being stronger. But after she joined them, and the destiny stuff kicked in, they became stronger. Which is why Future Max came to Liz: they weren't as strong when Tess left, so Max had to make sure Tess would stay. Since the four did work better together, this means Tess is the fourth alien, not Ava, nor Liz (I've heard both theories). As for mindwarping Kyle, what was she supposed to do? He obviosuly would have told everyone.
quote: Again I never said Max and Tess had a good relationship. BUT, their relationship is never protrayed as a good one, while the M/L relationship is. It's the "good" relationship while M/T is th "Bad". And I just feel that the "good" option isn't good, either. I don't agree with trying to trap a man by getting pregnant. In fact, I hate when women do that. But. Tess never forced Max to have sex, no? We never see him protest, say no, etc. Nor does he say "I don't have protection", "we can't", "later" or anything of the sort. So it's both their fault. It takes two to tango (and produce a baby), after all.
quote: While in the car, Liz figured it out. Tess said she never did anything wrong, and Liz said something like "you are now". She knew Tess was going to kill herself, blow the place up. Yet she didn't do anything to stop her.
quote:
quote: Well said Citrus and Vine... about everyone not telling everyone. Er...yeah. That's pretty much all I can say I like your thoery about Nacedo telling Tess she betrayed everyone.
quote: But sincei t's a very little "maybe" hopefully thery wouldn't try. It would be pretty selfish, no, to have a baby just because you want to, even though you don't know if the baby would even live, turn out right? Adoption is a good option. |
Posted 01-11-2004 10:04 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: The element of the unknown is true for regular humans, as well. Each new pregnancy carries its own risk of failure. Parents hope that their child will live and ìturn out rightî. Adoption is a good option for those who want to adopt. In Liz and Maxís case, the fact that Max has fathered one healthy human child might make them optimistic about a healthy outcome for a genetic child of their own. Since alien cells and human cells donít generally mix well without Gandarium to bridge the gap, they might think that alien-human hybrid offspring would be very unlikely. Even if they consciously decided not to have children of their own, the possibility having their own genetic child would remain. Even with protection and even occasionally with sterilization, pregnancies have a way of popping up! ********************** sHobhnA, you really know how to make people feel great!!! ********************** quote: Some fans dislike Tess, but like Ava and Liz. Even if the fourth was Ava, I think that would still be problematical for Liz to handle. She feared that Max would remember his young bride and love her. Even if Tess wasn't the fourth podster, Max still once loved Tess. Tess helped to save Earth, so regardless of her relationship with Max and the others, she made the world safer from aliens. Of course, I have no way of knowing how the storyline might have progressed, if there were more episodes. I think someday all three living podsters would remember their pasts. Their memories seemed to emerge when something other people said triggered their memories. Tess said that Nasedo taught her memory retrieval techniques, but the strategy seemed to yield very little useful information. Knowing that Nasedo raised Tess to betray her podmates, I think Nasedo told Tess the opposite of what would work to retrieve memories. I think perhaps they should all work together with active minds, rather than passive, restful minds, to retrieve memories. Sometimes, the more actively people work at things, the more they learn. [ 01-11-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-11-2004 01:39 PM by mesmerized
Fetch as for Tess issue as being bad and not bad. That's a load of crap. Alex went to her when her mindwarp of him was killing him.. If she knows that Alex needs despirate help. And she has full knowledge that Max is the healer. A good person or hybrid would call somebody for help. And Alex was freaking out she should have called Max to heal Alex. But what did she say to Max when he interrogate her in the pod chamber lets's see the real Tess; [b][i]Max: You killed Alex? She had lived with the Valenti and was expose to the wonders of humanity. But she was still focus on her alieness. As for her being the 4 square. I have to despute that. |
Posted 01-11-2004 02:12 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Now, we can agree on something!! Yes, it does take two to tango and Max CHOSE to sleep with Tess. Therefore, Max should not have run back to Liz after Tess betrayed him with a bogus declaration of love. Max CHOSE Tess over Liz and he should have stuck by his CHOICE. Just because Max had irresponsible "sex" with Tess and made her pregnant, that was his CHOICE not Liz's. Max should have moved on with his life and left Liz alone period. I also blame Liz for taking Max's sorry ass back in the first place, especially after he treated her like crap!!
quote: Why should Liz have stopped Tess from killing herself? It was Tess's CHOICE to ask Liz to drive her to the military base. Tess could have asked Max, Kyle, or Valenti to drive her to the military base because they ALL also voted "no" to kill her. I never understood why Tess asked Liz in the first place because they were never friends. Again, it was Tess's CHOICE, but if I were Liz I would have said "no" in the first place!!
quote: The same thing could be said about Max and Tess having a baby. Didn't Tess say "the baby was dying from the atmosphere", even though it was one of her mindwarps. Since Liz married Max(I still don't know why?) and they BOTH wanted to have a baby, I don't see that as being selfish. Max and Tess were not married and had a baby out of wedlock. Even though Tess wanted a baby for her own selfish reasons.
quote: I don't see Liz having a problem with Ava being the fourth alien. Liz and Ava hit if off at first sight because Ava didn't have the same disregard of humans as Tess did. Just to think that Ava was raised in the sewers of NYC and still got along better with humans than Tess. I love that Liz was 100% human, until Max changed her that is. But, I'm glad that she wasn't made or recreated for Max and was told that she was Max's Destiny. Max and Liz CHOSE each other and fell in love. Even though Liz could have done much better than Max at the end!! |
Posted 01-11-2004 04:20 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I think Liz would have the same problem with Ava being the fourth alien that she had with Tess, since Tess/Ava had been Maxís young bride in their previous lives. Tess got along well with Kyle and Valenti, and both of them voted not to turn Tess over to the Air Force. Ava, on the other hand, is shown to have gotten along with only one human (Liz) briefly, because Liz was kind to her. Ava didn't get along particularly well with Isabel or Michael. So personality-wise, I doubt that New York Ava would be a better choice for being the original Ava on Antar. Although some fans think of Max and Tess as being unmarried, they were married to each other in their previous lives. Granted, they didnít have a U.S. marriage license, but they had been married on Antar. True, they didnít remember much of the previous lives. Letís suppose that a married couple is injured in a car accident, and both of them lose their memories of being married to each other. They would still be legally married. If the couple chose to stay in the marriage, even though they didnít remember each other, they would still be married. Max and Tess considered themselves married to each other. So they didnít have ìsex out of wedlockî, because they both accepted that they were still married to each other from their previous lives. Liz and Max, in contrast, ìcementedî their love in the first timeline without benefit of matrimony. They were free spirits. [ 01-11-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-11-2004 04:35 PM by Citrus and Vine
IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/4square/tn_4square084_jpg.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/4square/tn_4square085_jpg.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/4square/tn_4square093_jpg.jpg I think Tess was one of the original Royals from Antar. I canít think of any way that it could be otherwise. How could Liz be from Antar? Sheís human and didnít even believe in aliens. In contrast, Max, Michael, and Isabel knew they were alien. How could Ava get transferred from one pod set to the other? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Tess could heal Maxís face. So perhaps she did attempt to heal Alex herself. If Tess had tried to heal Alex herself, then passage of time would have increased the likelihood that Alex could not be brought back to life. The longer a person isnít healed, the more likely it is that the person cannot be brought back. Max had healed Liz, immediately following the gunshot. Kyle was healed right after he was shot. Max wasnít at the Valenti home when Alex died. Itís doubtful that by the time he might have arrived that anything could be done to bring Alex back to life. Tess was wrong to mindwarp Alex, but she had no way of knowing that Alex could die from her mindwarps. When Tess mindwarped the agent in Kyleís house to go to Hondo, Kyle interrupted the mindwarp. Max knocked out the agent and locked him in the closet. Later, Max told Nasedo the two agents were in Hondo. So the audience knew from the end of Season One that Tess could suppress memories without any ill consequence to the person whose memories were suppressed. (Tess evidently suppressed the agentís memory of being knocked out and locked in a closet, because he didnít tell anyone about it later. ) IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/destiny/tn_desty140_jpg.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/destiny/tn_desty141_jpg.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/1/destiny/tn_desty145_jpg.jpg
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ìThe wonders of humanityî that Tess was exposed to during her life are part of the reason why Tess wanted so much to go to Antar. Earth has many cruel humans. Tess believed Nasedo when he told her that the Special Unit hunted her and him all her life. We know that two aliens from the 1947 crash were held captive and experimented on for years. Pierce was another example of an inhuman human. So I think it was reasonable for Tess to want to go to Antar, rather than be captured and experimented on by humans on Earth. In season three, the audience learns that there are additional threats from humans for the aliens.
[ 01-11-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-11-2004 05:27 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: YOU among others believe in past lives and Destiny, but I do not. So, therefore in my book Max and Tess were not married on Earth and did have "sex out of wedlock." Max and Tess died on Antar and were reborn on Earth as different people. I never saw Max take Tess to the Justice of the Peace and exchange marriage vows, so they were not husband and wife. If a married couple were married on Earth and were injured in a car accident and lost their memories, they are still husband and wife. Unless one person in that couple decides to divorce the other. I never heard Max one time refer to or accept Tess as his "wife", if you have episodes where Max did and not cut scenes, then please refer. If you also know the episode where Max and Tess exchanged marriage vows on Earth, please refer. Since FMax helped Liz in changing the first timeline, she and Max did not "cement" their relationship. So, therefore Liz and Max did not have "sex out of wedlock", even though they were free spirits. [ 01-11-2004: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
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Posted 01-11-2004 07:06 PM by mesmerized
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Citrus and Vine: I think Tess was one of the original Royals from Antar. I canít think of any way that it could be otherwise. How could Liz be from Antar? Sheís human and didnít even believe in aliens. In contrast, Max, Michael, and Isabel knew they alien. If she was. why is it that she is in cahoot with the enemy. their enemies was not hers. Why does Max felt not so connected with her. Michael and Isabel is the same thing. They never trusted her from the start. It's not like how Isabel felt for Michael the time they reunited after 3 years. And here's the other thing. Isabel and Max always feel for Michael even when they did not see him. when they separated. Isabel missed him so much that she cried in the sleep for her. Why did they not feel anything for Tess even from the very start. And why is it that Max felt so much for Liz even at a very young age. He never felt this way with Tess even when he first saw her in his house. How could Ava get transferred from one pod set to the other? [b] And speaking of Ava why is it that Loonie says what is she doing with them. It comes to question what is Ava's purpose. And if Tess is part of the Royal 4 why does Rath treat her with so dsrespect it's so different from how he and Loonie interact with both Michael, Isabel and Max. They never recognized Tess as part of the royal four. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yeah we know that already. But Alex is still dead anyway is he and it's still is a crime. And instead of admitting it. She cover up her deed. As for Kyle why would she kill Kyle when she can mindwarp him in believing what she want for him to see and believe. But it does not excuse her from making him carry his body and making him accesory to her crime. Tess could heal Maxís face. So perhaps she did attempt to heal Alex herself. If Tess had tried to heal Alex herself, then passing of time would have increased the likelihood that Alex could not be brought back to life. The longer a person isnít healed, the more likely it is that the person cannot be brought back.Max had healed Liz, immediately following the gunshot. Kyle was healed right after he was shot. Max wasnít at the Valenti home when Alex died. Itís doubtful that by the time he might have arrived that anything could be done to bring Alex back to life. [b]What are you talking about he was already dead and there's no more chance to revive him. I'm talking about the time when Alex was saying that he should not mindwarp him.After He told her she destroyed his mind after he decoded her stupid book for her Maybe she should not have mindwarp again in the first place. She should have not touch him again causing fatal damage when he yelled Don't mindwarp me. You can't mindwarp me. You are so eloquent in your defense of Tess. I guess seeing Alex when he was yelling for her not to mindwarp him because he's already in too much pain is not enough for you. Maybe if she's a real angel like what you try to portray her. She should have not done anything and called Max for help instead of frying his brain with another mindwarp. There's no excuse here Tess used Alex and has discarded him like a piece of trash when she's finished with him and make Kyle carry his body. Tess was wrong to mindwarp Alex, but she had no way of knowing that Alex could die from her mindwarps. Maybe she should have listen to him when he was begging her not to do it again to him . You see a person or a half person with concience will ask help in that situation . She knows that Alex has gone through enough with her alien voodoo she should have listen to him in the first place , so Tess had no reason to suspect that Alex would die, either. really then what is she thinking when Alex came to him very distraught and in so much pain he just acting ìThe wonders of humanityî that Tess was exposed to during her life are part of the reason why Tess wanted so much to go to Antar. Earth has many cruel humans. Going back to Antar was already ingrain in her by Nacedo from a young age. Because of the deal. Remember the deal Nacedo made to Kivar. And Tess almost fullfill the deal Tess believed Nasedo when he told her that the Special Unit hunted her and him all her life. We know that two aliens from the 1947 crash were held captive and experimented on for years. Pierce was another example of an inhuman human. So I think it was reasonable for Tess to want to go to Antar, rather than be captured and experimented on by humans on Earth. [b]Nacedo has been the one to start this reason why the special unit was after them. He was always tempting and teasing and playing this catch me if you can game with the special unit. And he lead them to Roswell and Max. If Nacedo did not shapeshift into Max and kidnap Liz. they would have bought time inalluding the FBI And if Tess did'nt came back with |
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Posted 01-11-2004 07:29 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Tess took over Alex's mind. She altered memories, and controlled him completely for prolonged periods of time. That is different from what she did before, except to Amy. It is as evil as murder; and Tess should have reasonably supposed that her actions could kill Alex. She tortured him to death. There are no mitigating circumstances. I don't buy Max and Tess as being married, either. Even if you accept that they're the same people as before - I don't - they were separated for a very long time. I don't think it's too wrong for Max to have done what he did - a foolish mistake, that's all, but neither he nor Tess was involved with anyone else. However, they'd only just gotten involved with each other, and were fairly young.
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Posted 01-11-2004 09:21 PM by Algieba
mesmerized I wasn't criticizing Liz's desire to help Michael when she told him about Topolsky, just her lack of consulting others who knew Michael before telling him something as serious as having somone possibly suspecting him. My point is that often the characters in this story go off on their own to do something that did or could have ended up badly. Consulting with others often prevents mistakes. I didn't think I'd get much response to my question about Michael's homicidal tendencies and I was right. Again, many fans defend Michael or don't even notice the things he did but condemn Tess for the same actions. Denny was a noncombatant and should have been treated as such by Michael. Michael did not even try to come up with a way to get Khivar without hurting Denny. He called Denny an idiot. Max had to step in and protect the civilian from soldier Michael. If Michael were to reveal his true nature to others besides those who loved him, he would get a more realistic reaction. He tried to kill Isabel's husband. You can joke about it AB but the fact is, in real life, that's called murder. Jesse wasn't even guilty. Michael argued with Maria after the attempt to kill Jesse because she tried to make it like that wasn't really him. He told her that it was him, that that was the way he was and he wasn't going to apologize for being himself. What would be the fan's reaction if Michael had succeeded in killing Jesse? Something tells me he would have gotten away with it. Tess, on the other hand, concealed what she had done to Alex because she knew she would be condemned and hated. Unlike Michael, she wanted to be accepted and thought she had to hide her mistake. I think sometimes because I have sympathy for Tess, others think I don't care what happened to Alex. That's just not so. I find it difficult to get angry with Tess because I find the way she was villanized was just so weak a story plot that I don't believe it. But for the sake of arguing the rightness or wrongness of what she did I will suspend my disbelief long enough to address what she did. There is no way the death of Alex can be justified. Tess had no right to use such a lengthy and invasive mindwarp on him. When he came to her in Kyle's room and told her about the damage that had been done to his mind, she should have put her own wants aside and made helping Alex her first priority. Up until then, her guilt was lessened by not knowing how much harm she could cause to a humans's brain. Once she knew the severity though, there is no excuse for risking further damage by mindwarping him again. She should have gotten Max to try to heal Alex even if it meant blowing her whole plan. This was Tess's deciding moment but she was weak and panicked. In trying to silence him, she killed him. She knew she had crossed an irreversible line and there was no hope for her ever to be accepted by Max, Isabel or Michael. I wonder though, if Michael had actually succeeded in killing Jesse, would there be any forgiveness in Isabel's heart for him? Why does he get off because he failed? Does that make him a better man because he failed? I don't think so. He was still a murderer in his heart. A few more seconds and he would have been a murderer in fact and someone else Isabel loved would have been dead. I still think Kal's statement to Max about mating with another hybrid indicated he knew something more. I agree Kal knew Max and Liz were together. It wouldn't make sense for a human to take their child and go to Antar. But there are other possibilities. Kal also knew Max had enemies on Antar, enemies that might kidnap his son. Khivar, the Skins, other aliens from their star system. It didn't have to be the child's mother who took him to Antar. I also just thought of another possibility, shapeshifter, on the Gandarium. Once assimilated into the hybrid's genetic makeup, could their function also be passed on genetically? There's nothing that says you have to have fresh Gandarium every time you want offspring. |
Posted 01-11-2004 09:42 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Alex: You did this to me, you sent me to Las Cruces. I donít think Alexís death is justified either. However, Tess wasnít attempting to kill Alex. The evening before Alexís death, he had outwardly been abundantly happy and healthy. Even hours before his death, he was happily and healthily talking with Liz and Maria in his room as he also talked to Isabel on the phone. Alex was the picture of health and happiness. His mind was intact. IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/cryname/tn_cryname005_jpg.jpg IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/cryname/tn_cryname008_jpg.jpg IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/cryname/tn_cryname009_jpg.jpg Tess didnít know that her mindwarps had harmed him, until the moment Alex told her that she had destroyed his mind. Alexís mind hadnít been destroyed on prom night less than 24 hours earlier or in the hours afterward, when Liz and Maria talked and joked with him, and Alex spoke with Isabel by phone. Tess was in the process of mindwarping Alex again, as she had in the past with no problem, when Alex protested. Adding to the pressure of the situation was the fact that Kyle was also there. Tess didnít want to jeopardize her relationship with Max, by letting Alex tell anyone what she had done. Tess had been able to mindwarp Alex before, with no ill effects, so she thought she could do so again. Everything happened very quickly, and then it was too late for Tess to change her last mindwarp of Alex. Alex died. Tess was responsible for causing Alexís death. However, she didnít want him to die, and she didnít know that he could die. She thought she could make things ok by mindwarping Alex again, but he died.
[ 01-12-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-12-2004 07:42 AM by fetch
quote: But usually there is more chance the children would come out okay then vice versa. In season 1, Max and Liz thought Liz could die if they had sex. As they knew more that fear disappeared, but Max believed Zan could die while tess was pregnant. Their knowledge of how alien pregnances, etc, work, is too little to actually have a baby, IMO. Sonia: I agree with you about MAx running aback to Liz. I don't think she should have forgiven him so easily. BUT- it is her choice, isn't it? About Liz driving Tess- we were talking abot how Liz never tried to stop Tess from killing hte other people involved. About Tess and Max having sex and getting pregnant- that happened by accident. I was talking about Max and Liz planning a baby. Which doesn't really matter cause we never get to see anything about that on the show. But anyway, consider t hat Tess knows more about the aliens than Max and Liz. As for Ava not having the same disregard of humans- how do you know? We only saw her for two episodes. She never showed oppositions to stealing from humans. She was against killing Zan, but he was her lover and the leader, not to mention an alein. As far as we know, Ava (and the other dupes) could have killed humans.
quote: In season 1 we see Max having memories of Tess in her pod chamber and not wanting to leave her, but je ends up joining Isabel. Isabel felt connected to Tess from the first time she saw her. She was sitting there, talking to Alex, and out of the blue decided to ask Tess to join her. Isabel never does things like that as far as we can see. She's not exactly friendly to people she doesn't know.
quote: I agree muchly. |
Posted 01-12-2004 07:52 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Beautifully explained and described, fetch!! Thank you!!! [ 01-12-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-12-2004 07:58 AM by jjac
quote: Excuse me, but I exaggerated a situation and then called that exaggerattion a "load of crock". Dobson and I were having a discussion that was quickly turning into a tit-for-tat argument and he decided to take a step back as did I. At no point was someone's ideas deemed worthless or any personal attack generated. Differences of opinion are common on a thread like this as is allowed. It would be a shame if one's opinion or the way that it was expressed would cause somone to stop posting. Then again, that would be that pesrson's choice if they did decide to stop posting. [ 01-12-2004: Message edited jjac ] |
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Posted 01-12-2004 08:38 AM by mesmerized
Algieba off course Tess is going to be condemn and hated. She killed somebody. What she did is still a crime. If we excuse what she did to Alex then we should excuse the doctors who had accidentally killed their patient because they're to incompetent.Or set charles Manson free. She killed Alex and covered it up. And Citrus of Vine thank you for posting the whole dialogue. Yeah it's still noble that Tess wanted to fix Alex. But it proves that she can't do it did she. Why did she not ask Kyle to stay . He already has proven to help her when he suggest that Alex should calm down. And why does she wants Kyle to be out while Alex is freaking out. Does'nt she knows that she needs help in calming Alex down. But instead she still does her alien thing that makes Alex suffer to silence him for good. A parent lose their Son because Tess is just a victim of of bad upbringing, two best friend loses their friend whose like a brother to them Because Tess is feeling unacceptable. A blossoming Romance for Isabel has been cut short cause Tess is feeling left out. So basically your opinion is that who cares about what other has lost as long as Tess can get away with murder. Hallelujah let's get those insane criminals serial killers out of prison who has cause they just suffer some bad childhood trauma. Like Lee Malvo. . She kills innocent people to get what she wants and to execute her devious plan. And it's just low that you should attack Liz because she drives Tess to the base. Because vrginia. Tess ask Liz to drive her there. What would Liz do? refuse her. No matter what Tess is planning or not planning to do in the base. Liz has no choice but to drive her there. Tess is capable of anything including murdering her if she will not comply to Tess's wishes. That's what she did to Alex.
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Posted 01-12-2004 10:27 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: ITA!! Just like it was Max's CHOICE to sleep with Tess and Max's CHOICE to run back to Liz after Tess betrayed him. It was also Max's CHOICE to treat Liz like crap during and after his relationship with Tess. Should Liz have gotten back with Max and then married him? HELL NO!! But, it all comes down to the CHOICES that each person makes.
quote: How was Liz supposed to stop Tess from killing the other people involved? Again, it all comes down to the CHOICES that each person makes.
quote: Again, it was Max's CHOICE to sleep with Tess. So, what ever the consequences that happened after Max's CHOICE it was his problem. As far as Max and Liz having a baby, if it didn't matter we wouldn't be here talking and speculating about it!!
quote: I don't know and neither do you. I can only go by how Ava interacted with Liz from their first meeting. Ava and Liz hit it off and got along, whether Liz was kind to her or not. On the contrary, Tess thought that she was superior and better than humans. She treated Alex like he was nothing important in Crazy, and also pushed Liz out of the way when she came into the Crashdown to mindwarp Max!! If Tess wanted to be accepted into the group when she first came to Roswell, then she should have learned to accept that the humans were friends with the aliens.
quote: Again, that goes to how each and every viewer interprets an episode. I don't recall Max ever telling Liz about remembering Tess, even though she was his Destiny. Max only ever told Liz about him, Isabel, and Michael's memories of coming out of the pod chamber. I didn't see Max having any memories of Tess until she came to town and started messing with his head. Yes, Tess was one of the Royal Four but she was also a lying manipulator. She played games with Max, Michael, and Isabel's head instead of just coming right out in the open and telling them who she was. |
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Posted 01-12-2004 11:02 AM by Abducted Bookworm
Tess' intentions don't matter. The outcome was something she could have reasonably been expected to foresee, and it happened in the course of committing an equally severe crime. Algieba said she has trouble getting outraged, because it doesn't make sense. I completely agree with this argument! Equally, I completely reject the argument that Tess didn't mean to kill Alex. Although it leads towards the same conclusion, the argument is irrelevant. Michael would have killed Denny in the course of killing Kivar, an enemy. Sometimes terrorists use human shields. Sometimes there is no way to stop them without harming the human shields as well. That's what Michael proposed to do. The fact that we'd have loved it if Michael killed Jesse on the show (although not if something like that happened in real life) definitely says something about what the show became. I don't feel that way about any other "main character." Much as I came to hate Max, for example, I was shocked by what happened to him in S3, and I wanted him to come back (although not without waiting his turn). This was partly because I know Roswell fans who have been oops bus I'll finish later!
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Posted 01-12-2004 12:43 PM by mesmerized
Michael is going to kill Denny not knowing that Kivar was possesing the body. And about Jesse. He tried to kill him cause he think Jesse betrayed them to the FBI. Michael was not protecting his own interest alone. He was protecting Max and Isabel. Because he was program to do that. As for Max and Liz wanting to have a child tht's new |
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Posted 01-12-2004 06:55 PM by Ladeia
Wow lots of comments... Hmm on Michael even though he was wrong to try to kill Jesse he did at the time have a good reason and his actions were being influenced by the seal. It doesn't make it right but he did have an outside influence and a good reason. Denny was being controlled by Kivar an enemy. Yes, Denny was innocent but the person in control of him was not. Michael has never been big on strategy or patience. They were in a situation where they didn't have time to come up with plan B. Killing Denny wouldn't have been right but innocent lives are lost in war and they are more understandable. Tess may not have meant to kill Alex but that is what her actions caused. You still hold someone accountable if they hit someone by "accident". Just because they didn't see them doesn't let them off the hook for killing that person. Just because Tess didn't know her mindwarps would kill doesn't make her actions any less heinous. She still took away Alex's free will and controlled his actions for two months and the sad part is that Tess could have brought the idea up to the group about translating the book and they could have come up with a plan where the book could be translated. If she was really trying to hide something in that book she could have been involved and kept an eye out for it and taken action at that time without doing unneccesary harm. Both Max and Liz both made mistakes in their relationship. Liz should have said something a lot sooner about FMax. I don't believe that she should have ever kept that a secret to begin with especially after Alex died. If she didn't feel like she could tell Max, she should have told Michael or Isabel. And she should have told them that Tess was necessary so they could try to make her more apart of the group. Max is responsible for his actions with Tess and his actions towards Liz and should have been held accountable for his actions towards Liz. He did treat her like crap. Although I believe Max and Liz would have eventually gotten married but they should have had them work through their issues and honestly work together to repair the problems they had. Yes, the way you are raised affects you to some extent but at some point you have to take responsibility for your actions. Tess had months without Nesado's influence in her life. Even if she had bad experiences of humans in the past, she now had several humans around her that were decent people. And quite honestly, it seemed that most of their problems were when Tess and Nesado were in their lives. The FBI had all but disappeared from their lives when Nesado started showing up sending signals and then killing people. The events that led to them being on the run can directly be traced back to Tess coming back into their lives. Personally, I have to wonder why they didn't have any more skirmishes with the skins after Tess disappeared. The smurf was still alive the last time we saw him and if he was still out there why not more but yet we never saw him again. Everyone has a different opinion but personally I believe that memory of Tess floating in goo was a mindwarp. Whether the writers were planning on having Tess making an appearance later on in the season or not at the time of Balance is irrelevant. They did NOT mention another pod or remembering there was more of them out there. They didn't even think there were other aliens on the planet with them until Liz told them about the photo with the silver handprint. So in my opinion that memory is false. Isabel was the only one who outright trusted Tess. Everyone else had reservations about her. Why was Isabel the only one to find her trustworthy? From Crazy to Destiny, I don't remember anytime that Max or Michael felt a connection to Tess when in my opinion it wasn't influenced by Tess and yes I know not everyone believes she influenced that. Everyone has a different opinion so I know lots of people don't believe that Tess mindwarped Max into having fantasies of her or kissing her but personally I think they were mindwarps or at least influenced by Tess and just because Tess looked surprised by M/I dreaming of each other or the kiss doesn't mean anything in my book. She proved by the end of S2 that she was great at playing the good guy when she was working against the podsters. In regards to their powers becoming stronger that could be just a side affect of them having to use them more. We know Michael practiced his powers over the summer and I'm sure Max and Isabel did some as well plus they started having skirmishes with the skins. Just because their powers became stronger after Tess showed up doesn't mean that it is a direct result of her being there unless you blame her presense on their enemies being around. *evil grin* According to Ava, Zan was always looking for someone else. Rath and Lonnie never treated her as one of them or her queen. It makes you wonder why. Tess never truly fit into the group even when towards the end before they found out she was the enemy. They also never fully explained why Max had this connection to Liz from the beginning. It just seems old that Max would have this instant connection to Liz but he doesn't to Tess except for some "visions" that are suspect. Not that I'm saying Liz is an alien but that they are just more CHADs to add to the list. I don't believe that Max and Tess were married. Max and Tess are not the same people they were. They were clones of the original and not even complete clones. I don't believe they were the same people who made those vows to each other in the past life. Those people died, Max and Tess are not them. And in three seasons the only proof we have of Max and Tess having to be together comes from suspicious sources (ie: the book which didn't make an appearance until Tess showed up, Tess and Nesado).
Okay I think I've rambled for way longer than I intended and don't think I even said what I had originally planned on saying. |
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Posted 01-12-2004 08:00 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Ladeia- Thank you and beautifully said!! |
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Posted 01-12-2004 09:31 PM by Algieba
Ladeia. Please keep on with your "rambling". Your posts are so interesting. We see some things differently but that's fine with me too. I do think that intent has a lot to do with the degree of culpability. The victim suffers the same whether they're hit by a car by accident or by a deliberate act. However, the punishment given by a court of law is less because it is considered more serious to deliberately set out to hurt someone than it is to hurt them unintentionally. Again, it makes no difference to the victim at that point so I'm not trying to excuse anyone. I had a friend die in high school because he was in a car accident while riding in a car with some other friends. The driver was drinking. The boy who was driving never really got over what he had done because he knew that it was his fault. He didn't go to jail because of his age but I know he would have preferred jail to the mental torment he went through. The parents of the dead boy completely forgave him. He went over to their house thinking they would hate him forever but they hugged him and cried with him, both for the loss of their son and for the deep suffering they knew would follow such a tragic act. They knew he would be punished by his own feelings of guilt for the rest of his life much worse than any court could punish him. I bring this up because I think there are times in life where people, especially kids, do terrible things to others without meaning to or planning to. It is very different from sitting down and planning out a crime. I wish the show had dealt more with how Tess felt about Alex's death. She stated in Departure and 4AAAB that she had not intended to kill Alex. I think she deeply regreted it and that was part of the reason she sacrificed her own life. When Kyle wouldn't forgive her, she had no one left who cared about her and she truly did feel worthless. When Liz wouldn't do to Tess what Tess had done to Alex, that one act of mercy broke that cold wall Tess had built around herself. Part of Tess's motive for going to the base was to try to divert attention from her baby but in addition she told Liz this last act of her life was to do "one good thing" with her life. What a sad way to die, thinking your whole life has been for nothing. It reminds me of the words in a famous novel of another person who felt he'd lived a worthless life but had a chance to help someone by sacrificing his own life. I quote but may not have it exact, "It is a far, far better thing that I do than I have ever done before. It is a far, far better place that I am going to than I have ever been before." I think the creators of the show were trying to give Tess some dignity in the end and I think they did a superb job of it. Just the same, I'd rather Tess was still alive. |
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Posted 01-12-2004 09:41 PM by shapeshifter
Algieba, great post. At last someone has put into words what I have been thinking but didn't know how to say. Roswell began with the metaphor of aliens for teen alienation, and I think consistently continued to create other metaphors out of scifi events. I definitely see all the "bad" choices made by the young people in Roswell as metaphors for real-life bad choices that real teens do make. I guess it's easier for me to see that since I made a lot of bad choices when I was young. I wish someone could have stopped me, but they didn't. That's how I see Tess. I never questioned that Max & Liz were intended to be together in the end of the story, but I also saw Tess as a tragic figure, similar to the Nikolas in the Roswell High novels, who came between Isabel and Alex and then was murdered by Valenti (who was the equivalent of the Special Unit in the tv show). Ack. Sorry to ramble. I have just clearly demonstrated how poor I am at expressing things. Thanks again, Algieba, for saying it. |
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Posted 01-12-2004 11:37 PM by Citrus and Vine
So many interesting posts and ideas! Thanks, everyone! Iím just going to jump in with some comments on something Algieba addressed to shapeshifter. quote: I think the Gandarium was used as a catalyst in the process. As such, the Gandarium wouldnít be assimilated into the hybridís genetic makeup. Rather, the Gandarium would generate the process (ìbridge the gapî) without being changed itself or incorporated into the hybrids. Itís particularly important that the Gandarium not be assimilated into the genetic makeup, because of the potential danger to humans. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1284a87e0.jpg
[ 01-12-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-13-2004 04:37 AM by fetch
quote: Ah, but that's where Liz's selfishness comes in. She hated Tess from the start. She never wanted Tess to be accepted. She still got mad/hurt when she saw Max and Tess walking together (Skin and Bones, was it?), then hugging, then kissing, then when she heard they had sex. But she never tried to stop any of it. She just expected Max to keep chasing her. so blah on that As for the destiny book not showing up until Tess- it was found by her in the library, which Michael was lead to in season 1 during that whole complex thing, drawings on the cave, keys, etc. Unless you're thinking Nacedo and Tess made all that up, but why go to all that work when they could have just shown up with the book? The podsters knew there was another alien, only they thought it was Nacedo, not Tess. They looked for him. Michael at least would have believed them. |
Posted 01-13-2004 06:21 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: I don't see Liz any more selfish than Tess, Maria, and Isabel. Wasn't it Maria who yelled to Liz that Max was walking with Tess in Ask Not? It was Maria blowing it all out of proportion, so she could take some of that blame also. As for Liz hating Tess, again Tess hated Liz just as much and was jealous that Max loved Liz and wouldn't give her the time of day. Max never would have accepted Tess if Liz hadn't broken up with him and pushed him away. Not even Tess's mindwarps could make Max love her!! Tess could have shouted from the rooftops all she wanted that human emotions meant nothing to her. If Tess only considered herself alien, why did she get so upset and angry at a goodbye kiss that Max gave Liz in Departure? Remember, Tess didn't care about her human appearance or emotions, only her alienness was important to her. That was Tess's comment to Max in Ask Not. Since Liz is human, she had every right to be angry that Max slept with Tess, even if they were not together. Just like Maria got mad with Michael when he was at Courtney's apartment, when they weren't even together. I also recall Max getting angry and upset when Liz supposedly slept with Kyle and they weren't together. So, I guess Max is only human after all if he could get upset that his ex-girlfriend was intimate with her ex-boyfriend!! Liz never expected Max to keep chasing her. Liz expected Max to give her an answer, make a CHOICE, and stick with it. Max made his CHOICE when he chose Tess over Liz, so Max should have stuck with his CHOICE and damn the consequences. Max should not have run back to Liz after Tess betrayed him with a bogus declaration of love. Max should have gotten his life together and moved on with it away from Liz. Why run back to Liz when he made his CHOICE and things didn't turn out right because of his decision? I never believed for one second that Max and Liz's love would cause TEOTW. If Tess was so important to Earth's survival, FMax should have went to Tess in the first place. If he couldn't go to Tess, then he should have went to Isabel and Michael. I never bought the Max "had to fall out of love with Liz" plan, so that Tess could be accepted and stay in Roswell. Max and Liz were stronger together than apart and Tess ended up betraying her "King" in the end anyway. |
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Posted 01-13-2004 11:01 AM by mesmerized
[QUOTE]Originally posted by fetch: [QB] Ah, but that's where Liz's selfishness comes in. She hated Tess from the start. She never wanted Tess to be accepted. She still got mad/hurt when she saw Max and Tess walking together (Skin and Bones, was it?), then hugging, then kissing, then when she heard they had sex. But she never tried to stop any of it. She just expected Max to keep chasing her. so blah on that [/QOUTE] Maybe if you were in Liz place you will feel I know you don't like Liz character but try to be fair in your perspective. Will you Because your selfish theory about Liz was unfounded and irrelevant. |
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Posted 01-13-2004 03:31 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Fetch, I agree with you. Liz had to be the martyr. She had to be the one to make the huge sacrifice to save everyone. As a result, she let the Earth become doomed to alien conquest, and refused to admit her mistake - ever. As Sonia pointed out, the whole plot of EOTW made no sense. There were other ways to keep Tess around - she was beginning something with Kyle right when Liz came and wrecked that. And FM had no rationale for his conclusion that it was Tess that they needed in the first place. Algieba, what Tess did in OTM/Departure was not comparable to what you propose. She took Alex's mind over! It isn't comparable to drunk driving (which is terrible, yes). It's comparable to kidnapping someone, torturing or raping them, and then being upset when they die although you didn't mean for that to happen. In fact, she did kidnap Alex. No, that makes no sense given what we knew of Tess before that. It's a huge continuity flaw. But the actions can't be dismissed as a juvenile prank gone horribly wrong. It is vastly, vastly different from that.
[ 01-13-2004: Message edited Abducted Bookworm ] |
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Posted 01-13-2004 05:09 PM by Ladeia
Okay just a disclaimer.. Liz IS my favorite character. I'm not bashing her but I do think she had her flaws. The first time around watching the show, Tess was only likable when she interacted with Kyle. (I haven't seen any of Season 2 or the last five eppys of season 1 since the show was on TV so maybe now that I have a different perspective I'll see her differently if I get the chance to rewatch the series.) Liz was selfish in the regards that she didn't try to make an effort to get Tess more into the group. She was selfish in that she expected Max to just wait for her and not eventually move on but both reactions are normal human reactions. If she was perfect than she would have handled it completely different. As I've probably said TEOTW being caused by Max and Liz being together I believe is just bogus. Just a writers idea to add some extra unneccesary angst to a relationship that already had enough problems to overcome. If the only thing that would keep Tess in Roswell was to have Max love her than the world was doomed in my opinion. Liz should have realized that her actions caused the group to splinter and then worked towards fixing it. She should have done something after Alex died when she knew that he wasn't supposed to die the first time around. Liz is my favorite character but I think she did handle some things badly. After reading various posts and even some fanfic, Tess isn't a character that I hate as much as I used to. I can empathize with her to a certain extent and can even think what her life could have been like if the writers didn't totally screw her up. If they hadn't cut short the season I would have liked to see what they could have done with her instead of having her blow herself up. I don't think they were necessarily comparing what Tess did to a drunk driver. I used the example of even if Tess had "accidently" killed Alex and she really didn't have any idea that what she was doing was going to kill him even in a court situation she would have still had to have done some kind of penance (if you compare him "accidently" dying to say someone accidently hitting someone while driving but that's not to say that I consider what Tess did anywhere near a simple car accident. I just used it as an example. I was actually trying to think of a court case that was recently publicized here but can't remember the exact circumstances. A lady ended up killing her child but she claimed it was an accident and she didn't know that it would cause the kids death. Again I don't remember the exact circumstances but that was really what I was trying to compare it too). Even if she hadn't known that it would kill him her actions were a major act of violence against Alex and she should still be held accountable but since his death was the result, the rest of the group focused more on that part than how he got to that point. Okay now that I've completely confused myself I'm going to go. Thanks for the kind words. I love reading other's opinions even if I'm sitting here thinking they are crazy for believing that way it still makes me think about why I believe it a different way. |
Posted 01-13-2004 07:29 PM by mesmerized
quote: Now that's confusing you mean to say that you want the group to focus on how Alex got killed "accidentally" by Tess. So you don't want them to be spared the gruesome detail about Tess total mind control of Alex. You want them to know how she fried his brain to get what she wants? Yeah your right your confusing. And your supposed to have the most eloquent post in this page. |
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Posted 01-13-2004 08:25 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
I agree with you Ladeia in regards to Liz. Liz was my favorite character and she always will be. I've never put her on a pedestal and I will admit when she's wrong. I love the character of Liz, her imperfections, her flaws and all. I never saw Liz as getting any rewards for being a martyr in my book. What benefits did she reap? Certainly, not marrying Max in the end was her just rewards!! Like I stated previously, I don't see Liz any more selfish than Tess, Maria, and Isabel. I definitely saw each one of the females in Roswell with traits of selfishness, even if they didn't have the fate of the world hanging on their shoulders. Even though I didn't agree with TEOTW, Liz should have told Max about FMax and then stayed away from him. Why should Liz be the one to make Tess more accepted in the group? Let Max handle his responsibilities and make Tess feel more welcomed. Liz already had to give up "the love of her life", I didn't think that she had to sit by and watch Tess hanging all over Max also. Max and Liz both moved on with their lives separately. Max CHOSE Tess and Liz CHOSE Sean. Again, what ever decisions and actions that they both CHOSE to make in each relationship, they should BOTH be held accountable for their OWN actions. Therefore, Max should not have run back to Liz after his relationship soured with Tess. Liz should not have gotten back with Max period and stayed the strong independent young girl that I loved. Everything should have come out in the open and after the gang was informed about TEOTW, Max and Liz should have went their separate ways. Max had a son to find and Liz did not need to help him with that cause. Liz should have gotten her grades back up and went to Northwestern and continued her studies. Just because Liz started exhibiting powers, did not mean that she had to be stuck with Max for life!! Liz walked away from Max and left him to follow his Destiny. Liz broke Max's heart by pretending to sleep with Kyle in TEOTW. Liz used, dated, and kissed Sean and moved on with her life. Max followed his Destiny which led him to sleep with Tess and make her pregnant. Max acted like an ass and treated Liz like crap. Max was leaving the Earth with Tess and his family in Departure. BOTH Max and Liz made CHOICES in their lives that they both had to live with. So, in the end if Max and Liz never came to an understanding and honestly resolved their differences, they should have never gotten married. I must be in the minority because after everything that was shown to me Liz and Max were both better off in the end without each other. I didn't believe in TEOTW, but if it was true Earth is surely doomed now because Max still married Liz anyway. I'm all for forgiving, but it's the forgetting part that doesn't come easy with me. Why would anyone still want Max and Liz together, especially married in the end? Love is not always easy and it can cause happiness, heartache, and pain. It's also how two people treat each other when they are in "love", and I didn't see Max and Liz being happy in that department anymore. |
Posted 01-13-2004 09:29 PM by mesmerized
quote: Yeah. In fact it's an insult.
quote: But if she did do you think Max will stay away from her. I think not. he was so obssessed with her to the point of stalking her. And do you think Liz will be strong to fight her feelings for Max. In the last timeline she give in to cementing and all hell broke lose.
quote: Liz did'nt choose Sean Liz Sean was the one who pursue Liz
quote: DITTO.
quote: I would have to agree with the last statement. But Liz did'nt made her choice. Cause she does'nt have any choice . But I have to disagree that she used Sean. Liz might have ask Sean's help in finding Alex killer. Anyone viewed this as a selfish act in the surface but if you look closely This is an example where sometimes doing the right thing requires you to do some radical steps that will help you get in the bigger picture of things. That's why the US has the CIA. But Liz never fully used Sean to have pity sex like Max. Like anyone of us who has someone broken our hearts irrevocably we need to have someone help us feel that we are still capable of being loved in return. |
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Posted 01-14-2004 06:39 PM by Algieba
shapeshifter I understand how you feel about not having anyone to direct you away from those gaping traps in life called choices. Young people are sooooooooooooooo intolerant of mistakes made by others. My feet are made of clay also and I have no trouble identifying with Tess. Citrus I love your word, "muchly". I'll have to borrow it sometimes. Also, I think you're right about the Gandarium not being able to be assimilated into the genetic makeup of the hybrids. My scientific and medical knowledge is somewhat sketchy. I say that so I can make another scientific obsevation which will probably have the more learned among us reaching for the hook to jerk me offstage but here goes. I was thinking of the hybrids mating with humans sort of like horses mating with donkeys. They produce a mule but the mule cannot then mate with another mule to produce a baby mule. Something about species not mixing. Horses and donkeys seem to me more closely related than aliens and humans. So, if horses and donkeys from the same planet and biological family (I think) can't get it right, how are beings from a different planet going to safely and successfully reproduce. What was it Liz said, "So, are our children going to be green and three feet tall?" Okay, I see the hook coming so I'm going to jump to another subject (albeit an equally dangerous one). jjac I reread your post to Dobson and I can see where you intended it to be a comment about your own exaggerated remark so I apologize for criticizing you when I didn't understand what you meant. However....the reason I didn't see it as an exaggeration is because although I don't think everything was Liz's fault, I do think she was very wrong to drive Tess to the base. I think Tess did not need to go to the base to turn herself in. She could have gone to a pay phone and identified herself and asked to send someone to accept her surrender. If she didn't want to be taken alive she could still have accomplished that without wiping out many of the humans who died on the base. The reason I don't think Liz should have done what she did is the same reason I have criticized Liz in the past. She often decides to do something by herself instead of consulting others who may be affected by the decision she makes. I like the character of Liz very much but I think they made her too quick to discount the intelligence of others. It's wrong to think that you don't need to consult others when your decisions may jeopardize their safety. Alex might have been saved if the Granilith stayed on Earth. Once Max and Tess were together and she'd accomplished what FMax wanted, why didn't Liz tell everyone how important it was to keep the Granilith around? Especially after Alex died and she knew that someone named Serena was going to help with understanding time travel. I'm not going to bring up other instances because this post will go on too long but driving Tess to the base was a decision that belonged to the whole group. The whole group decided to vote on what to do with Tess. Neither Tess nor Liz had the right to endanger everyone by changing the decision. I agree with Citrus that Tess had a right to decide what to do with her own life but not if that decision might result in the deaths of other human beings and bring down a massive manhunt on her so called accomplices. I'll never understand why Liz trusted Tess enough to get in a car with her without the protection of the others. Supposedly, Tess was a murderer, a liar, a torturer. Did it not occur to Liz that Tess might be deceiving her? That she wanted to get her away from the others for some other reason? What if Tess had wanted revenge on Max enough to hurt Liz and sneak away to save herself? I don't think she would do anything like that but if everyone believed she was evil enough to do all the things she supposedly did, it was dangerous for Liz to be alone with her. As it turned out, Liz realized too late that Tess wasn't going to be taken alive. It must have occured to Liz at that point that Tess had already killed 16 scientists and soldiers to get her son away safely so what would stop her from destroying any others she saw as a threat to her son? I don't think Liz was powerful enough to stop Tess but it never would have reached that point if Liz had woken the others to tell them what Tess had decided to do. I think if everyone had then decided to let Tess go and do whatever she wanted, I would feel less critical of Liz but I can't imagine Michael being trusting enough of Tess to let her "turn herself in". Michael, Isabel, and Maria thought Tess was evil enough that she should be turned over to the Special Unit to be tortured and studied like a lab rat. Why would they let her just walk onto that base again where she had just killed 16 people? Again, I don't think Liz had the right to make a decision by herself about someone who had "supposedly" mindwarped and killed one of her best friends and lied and schemed to lure Max, Michael and Isabel back to a planet where they could be killed. |
Posted 01-14-2004 07:56 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Someone other than me posted "muchly", Algieba. [ 01-14-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-14-2004 08:08 PM by Ladeia
quote: I'm talking about starting after TEOTW up to Departure. The group started splintering apart shortly after Liz pretended to sleep with Kyle. Then after Alex died she should have told someone since she knew Alex should have been alive in the original timeline. If she had told someone, then they may have been able to figure out what happened to Alex sooner. I am not saying she should have gone to Max but what about Michael? The end of the world is a major deal. She should have never kept that to herself even if she felt she couldn't tell Max she should have let one of the other aliens know so they could work towards making sure it didn't happen.
quote: When I said that to a certain extent I can empathize with Tess, I did not mean her actions towards the end. I meant that I could see how she was an outsider. I could see how the fantasies she had growing up about meeting her "family" did not come close to being the harsh reality she got. I don't believe she was really ever accepted by the group. She was the "other" woman in Max's life. She was the interloper. When I said I could empathize with Tess, I did not mean her actions towards Alex or even the military but her feelings of isolation and loneliness. When Roswell was on the air, I never thought of what Tess was going through. I hated her from the start. She was the cause of my favorite couple being torn apart and I couldn't stand her. I can only remember one or two scenes and they were with Kyle that I liked her in. Every other scene she was in I cringed and yelled at the screen for her to disappear. I could never stand her when Roswell was on. I hated her even more when it was discovered she had killed Alex and seduced Max and was pregnant with his child. I still don't believe she did proper penance for her actions but now that the show is no longer on and I have read various posts and read various fanfics, I can see how if she was given a chance she could have been a great character. The fans were sold short on her character. No I don't like Tess. I don't think I ever will but I don't hate her as much as I did when the show was on but again I haven't rewatched Season 2 since it first aired so maybe if I was to see it again I would hate her just as much as I used to. No I don't think she could use the excuse of how Nesado raised her for everything she did wrong. He may have acted like he treated her like a child but Nesado was a cold blooded killer and his coldness showed through. He was creepy. If Tess had been raised by the Evans I doubt she would have turned out the same so yes I think some of her actions were caused by her upbringing but as I mentioned before there comes a point wwhne someone has to be responsible for their actions and they can't use their upbringing as an excuse. Tess made the choice to betray her fellow podsters when she could very well have decided that she wasn't going to go through with Nesado's deal. She had months without Nesado's influence in her life to change. She didn't.
quote: I didn't say I wanted everyone to focus on how she "accidently" killed Alex. I said that the gang meaning Liz, Maria, Isabel etc focused on Alex's death. They never really talked about what led up to his death. Yes, Liz mentioned it in departure and I think it might have been mentioned in passing in 4AAAB but they concentrated more on his death than they did on what led up to it. I'm not excusing Tess' actions. They were horrible, violent and she should have been made accountable for them. Not everyone agrees on how Alex ended up decoding the book but for myself I believe that Tess forced him to decode the book. She kidnapped him, took away his free will and slowly destroyed his mind. There is no excuse for that. It was a horrible crime against Alex as a person and a friend of the aliens. The comparision that was mentioned early was in regards to someone that felt that Tess wasn't responsible for killing Alex because she didn't know her mindwarps could kill and shouldn't be held accountable when she claimed it was an accident. I brought up a real life situation because I was trying to say that even in real life if someone accidently kills someone they are still held accountable even if they weren't aware their actions would kill.
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Posted 01-14-2004 09:24 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I thought so too, Ladeia. Thatís why I thought it would have been good, if Liz had been able to put aside her grief and anger to examine the information Valenti gave Max. Then everyone might begin talking things out, rather than pulling away from each other. Liz later broke into the school for more information. She might have found similar information already gathered from the police investigation. But weíre all human and we all make mistakes. Grief can distort the way we look at life and how we handle things. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````` [ 01-14-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-14-2004 10:03 PM by mesmerized
So what your saying Citrus of Vine that we have to play the waiting game. with Alex death. I don't know but maybe if she did play the waiting game the damage that she did could have been more worst. She never know that the Damn Granolith was also a space ship that can also be adjusted as a time machine. She does'nt know that the granolith was a spaceship too. But she stumble on that info accidentally while she was searching for happen to Alex. She was focus on finding his killer and not about what function the granolith could do. Everyone kept blaming her about why she did not tell Max about future Max's existence. What do you think will happen. Max will be more obssessed with her and he will never care about his obligation and duties and Tess will use this for her own advantage. |
Posted 01-14-2004 10:48 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: The Mule is a cross between a donkey stallion (called a jack) and a horse mare. Both male and female mules have all the correct "parts" but they are sterile and cannot breed. A VERY few (about 1 in 1 million) mare mules have had foals, but these are VERY, very rare. No male mule has ever sired a foal. SO if you cross a mule to a mule - you get nothing! The alien hybrids were a combination derived from humans and aliens. If we wanted to carry the donkey-horse (i.e., human-alien) analogy to the hybrid aliens, then Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess would be the generation that were the mules. If we used this model, then it would be impossible for Max (the male mule equivalent) to ever father a child. (ìNo male mule has ever sired a foal.î) Of course, this analogy breaks down, because the alien-humans weren't mules, and because Max fathered a child. It also breaks down, because Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess werenít conventional Earth hybrids. Their makeup was from beings from two separate planets. They were engineered with the use of Gandarium, so they were created differently from the way mules are created. Max and Tess were able to have a child together. Other things in Roswell are also different from what happens in normal human genetics. Humans don't have the power to create force fields, using only their hands, to repel bullets. Humans can't change the molecular structure of things, with a sweep of the hand. Roswell is about imagination and what would happen if there were beings sent from another planet to Earth, beings who were derived from the beings of two different planets. [ 01-15-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-18-2004 12:12 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: I donít think that it has been verified anywhere that Tess killed additional humans on the base, when she returned. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/3ea9a87e0.jpg I'm unable to read the content of the news article about the event. (Perhaps someone else has more information on what is printed.) The General spoke of losing a lot of good people that day. ìThat dayî was within the same 24-hour period, when Tess killed the people breaking into her spaceship. Tess was protecting her life and the life of her child. I think people have a right to save their own lives and the lives of their children, when their lives are directly threatened. If Tess could have mindwarped those 15 or so people into forgetting her and Zan, then I think she would have done that. Mindwarping required concentration. We saw that Tess was wounded, and we also know that mindwarp suppressions can come undone. Tess didn't think she could get away by using her mindwarps. She acted spontaneously to keep herself from being killed and to keep herself and Zan from being imprisoned and studied for the remainder of their lives. When Tess returned to the base, she would have needed to make certain that at least some people lived to tell about her return to the base. Otherwise, her sacrifice was pointless. Nobody hunts for Tess, beyond the time she returns to the base, so evidently, Tess didnít kill everyone on the base. Without evidence to the contrary, I donít think we can say that Tess killed additional people on her return. Perhaps the news article accounted for the loss of those killed on the base when Tess protected herself as she left the ship, by ascribing their deaths to the explosion. The military would have needed a cover story for how those people had been killed. They didn't release a story about a human-like extraterrestrial killing the people. quote: I think herein lies the tale. Jason Katims has spoken about Romeo and Juliet. Liz refers to Shakespeareís timeless play, as well. When we fail to consult with the people who will be affected by our decisions, the consequences may become adverse. Juliet failed to talk to Romeo, before taking the poison. He didnít know of her plan. He reacted to her apparent death, by killing himself. If they had talked together, and reached an agreement, things might have ended better for them. As Algieba points out, the group had already reached agreement, regarding how Tess should be treated. They voted not to turn Tess in. Liz was the deciding vote, which produced that agreement. Tess decided to turn herself in. She had the right to decide what she wanted to do for herself. She could have gone to the base, alone, by herself. No one was awake to stop her. If Liz had awakened the others, when Tess wanted Liz to drive her, the others might have talked Tess into staying (at least for the moment). As it was, no one ever showed Tess that they wanted her to be a part of their lives. At some point in the future, Max may wonder why Liz was willing a number of times to do things without talking things out first. He may find it particularly troubling one day, if he ever fully recovered memories of Tess from their lives on Antar. He might be more sympathetic towards the reasons why Tess acted and felt the way she did. In any case, even if Max never gained sympathy for Tess, he or Zan might one day wonder why Liz didnít stop Tess from returning to the base to die. Tess did a lot of good things for her podmates and for Earth. She was much maligned for her part in Alexís death. Little is said about Future Liz, Future Max, and Lizís part in Alex and Tessí deaths. No one consulted Tess to see if she was willing to sacrifice her time and effort to change the timeline to human advantage. As humans, we the audience are only too happy for Tess to have contributed her energies to saving many humans in the future. We avoid looking at the ways Tessí life was manipulated, without her knowledge or consent. [ 01-18-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-18-2004 01:08 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Max wouldn't have ever had to wonder why Liz didn't talk things out with him, if he would have just gotten into the Granilith with Tess and his family in Departure. Tess did tell Max that he wouldn't remember Liz where they were going. Max made his CHOICE when he CHOSE Tess over Liz, so Max should have stuck by his CHOICE. No one begged Max to run back to Liz after Tess betrayed him. Again, that was Max's CHOICE to pursue Liz and then to marry her. But, maybe both Max and Liz woke up and divorced each other. Then Max could find his son and tell him all about his mother Tess. Since I didn't see Future Ass, err, Max ever tell Liz about Future Liz and the plan, I don't blame FLiz one bit. It was FMax that came back to Liz to make her change the timeline, so he gets all the blame from me. Like I stated previously, if Tess was so important to Earth's survival then FMax should have went to Tess. If he couldn't go to Tess, then he should have went to Isabel and Michael. If Max ever does recover his memories of Tess on Antar one day, and since I don't believe Tess died in 4AAAB, maybe Max and Tess could reunite with their son. That's of course after Liz "wakes up" from her fog and divorces Max and then pursues her dreams. But, if Max one day decides to blame Liz for Alex and Tess's deaths, then he better take a good look in the mirror and take some of that blame also!! [ 01-18-2004: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
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Posted 01-18-2004 04:18 PM by Algieba
Citrus That was such a well written post. You make very convincing points. I had never considered that the day was a 24 hour period in which the scientists and soldiers died as Tess left the base. I do think that though there is no proof of more deaths, the audience is led to believe that there are. Like so many things about Roswell, we can't say for certain that no one else died but neither can we say for certain that no one else didn't. The explosion is huge. There are people near Tess because we hear them shouting at her to surrender. If Tess was killed (I, like Sonia E, think she was not), then it is reasonable to assume that others would have been caught up in the explosion. As you point out though, we have no definite proof, so I can't say you're wrong. I thought the story line made it clear that Tess had just gained consciousness when she saw the scientist reaching for Zan. She had to have had some kind of head injury to be unconscious that long. Perhaps a mindwarp was beyond her capabilities at that moment because she needed her mind in clear condition to accomplish it. Deciding the best course of action for someone in a life threatening situation is never easy. So many people never have to face a situation where their lives or their loved ones lives are in danger. I don't think it is easy to make a life and death decision in the space of a few seconds. Tess showed she wasn't up to her normal mindwarping capabilities. She passed out when she showed up at the Evans' home and handed Zan over to Max. She lost concentration in the car at the roadblock. A few people shouldn't have been much of a challenge for someone who could usually mindwarp many people at once and make it strong enough to keep them that way for months at a time. I think her injuries weakened her to the point that a mindwarp just wasn't going to work. The beings in '47 who killed the people in the room with the pods also felt it was acceptable to kill humans who were endangering the lives of their young. Tess was acting the way her species normally acted. Although I wonder how many human mothers would actually sit calmly by and let some government scientists haul off one of their children to experiment on. Romeo and Juliet is a good analogy. All that tragedy and heartbreak that never had to be. I don't agree that Tess had a right to decide what she wanted to for herself. She wasn't the only one who would be affected. Others might have to face the consequences of her actions. Would the others have felt secure knowing that Tess was in the hands of the government? I don't even know why they came up with the idea to turn her over. What if Tess was really the evil schemer the story made her out to be? Cutting a deal with the Special Unit to deliver some of the other aliens into their hands wouldn't have been beyond her. Or just not being able to withstand torture and drug induced confession was enough of a possibility to make that idea unworkable. In my opinion, and it is only that, an opinion, I think Jim Valenti would have given Tess another chance if they had been able to shake the Special Unit's knowledge of their existence. Why I say that would take too long to go into now, except to say that I think he loved her as a father and would have treated her differently. Sonia E I agree that Tess is alive. When they don't show a body that leaves it open to bring her back if they thought that would be good for the show. When baby Zan cried out as Tess supposedly died, I felt he knew she had either just been killed or terribly hurt because he did have a link with her. I also agree that Max should have stayed with his family in Departure but I don't think he should have gone to Antar. Once Tess admitted that Kivar was waiting for them, I think Max felt his life would be in danger if he got into the Granilith. But why did he let Tess take his son to Antar once she told him that Kivar was not her enemy. If Kivar betrayed Vilandra, why would he not also betray Tess? It would have made more sense to me to prevent Tess from leaving and hope for the best for the baby. They could do as Jim suggested and try to get help, find a way. If Tess supposedly lied so much, Max should have questioned whether the baby would be better off on Earth where there was a possibility of finding help for him or on Antar where he would be delivered into the hands of the man who had killed his relatives in another lifetime. I thought Max was crazy to let the baby go. Better a risk to Zan's health here on Earth than allowing him to fall into the hands of the enemy on Antar. But then again, he only had three minutes to figure all this out so who am I to judge him? [ 01-18-2004: Message edited Algieba ] |
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Posted 01-18-2004 04:43 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Algieba, you raise some good points about the drawbacks (alternatively, lunacy) of giving up a live Tess to the SU. It never made any sense, although by that point I didn't expect any. But the realistic options were either to kill Tess and leave her body to be found, or to help her escape. As for the justice of Tess' actions "defending her son" - how did she get into that situation? Was she attacked by the SU before landing? Or did she violate US airspace, ignore air traffic control? What were her other options for getting to Earth? Those have to be taken into account, and most of these questions are probably unanswerable. Given the differences in Tess' character before and after OTM/Departure, I haven't a clue what we're supposed to assume.
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Posted 01-18-2004 07:32 PM by Algieba
Abducted Bookworm Who said anything about justice? Killing 16 people so your son can live and be free may or may not be a just act depending on the circumstances but I haven't thought as deeply about that because I know exactly what I would do if someone was trying to take my child and I assure you I would not be wasting any time trying to figure out what the just thing to do would be. My point has always been about what a mother will do when her child's life is in danger. It has nothing to do with justice. Ask any police officer the question, who are some of the most treacherous people to try to apprehend. If they are at all experienced they'll include a mother who is either protecting her child or a mother who is trying to keep you from taking her child away from her. I know a lot of posters talk about what is just and fair and self defense, and maybe there is a case to be made for defending yourself or your child. All of those points make sense but when you are talking about the maternal instinct it doesn't matter. Right, wrong, don't figure into it. It's an animal instinct that is particularly strong when the child is a baby because that is when it is most helpless. Did you see the look of contempt Tess gave Max when he asked what she did? "I protected my son." No apologies, no explanation, no plea for understanding. Why bother! He wouldn't understand. I remember hearing a show on radio where the woman was trying to explain this instinct to those who doubted it is as strong as it is. She said she and her husband had a discussion when they discovered she was pregnant about how it would change their life. He asked her who would be more important to her, her husband or her baby. He gave her the scenario of being adrift on the sea in a lifeboat that could only hold two passengers. He wanted to know if she would choose him over the baby. She naively said, "Why, I'd choose you of course. We have the primary relationship." It happens that fast. For those of you who have no experience in this area and doubt my assertions, I can only say, just you wait until it's you. I won't even argue the point with you. Just be sure you don't get between an animal and it's young or a human female and her child. Both are deadly. As for Tess violating US airspace, I don't know any way she could have landed without doing so. My thinking is that she isn't a trained pilot and the ship probably had some way to be programmed to go from Antar to Earth and land itself much like our present day planes do for destinations on Earth. Since she was running away from Kivar who wanted to kill Zan and she was landing on Earth where there were quite a few people who would like to kill her, I don't see that she had a choice. The pilot who tried to shoot her down had no choice either. Both were doing what they had to do. |
Posted 01-18-2004 08:21 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote:You are correct in one way. If Max were dead, he wouldnít be left to wonder about anything. I think Max was wise to stay behind. Tess had admitted her intention to hand Max over to Kivar. Max could have killed Tess to prevent that, but short of killing Tess, there was nothing further Max could do for his child. Once Tess was on Antar with the baby, Max would likely be forced to become an unwilling pawn, just to save his childís life. If Max cared nothing about the baby, then he could have gone with Tess or killed Tess or kept Tess from leaving. It was Maxís love for the baby that kept him from going to Antar with Tess and their unborn child. Alive on Earth, Max had a chance of seeing his son again. Dead or indentured to Kivar to prevent harm to his child, Max would be incapable of helping Zan. Max chose the right course. He had the greatest chance of helping Zan at some future date, if he remained behind. Max believed Zan would die, if Tess didnít go to Antar. He was unwilling to gamble away his childís life, by keeping Tess behind, because it might have been true that Zan really was dying in Earthís atmosphere. Max already knew from Courtney that Earthís atmosphere was deadly to some aliens.
quote: The good thing about making choices is that we can learn from our choices and make new choices accordingly.
quote: Future Liz, Future Max, and Liz each made their choices. While all of them influenced the others (knowingly or unknowingly), each of them retained responsibility for the choices they each made. They were all equally responsible for the choices they made. Going to Tess wouldnít have worked, because Tess already thought Max and she should work together. Max refused to work with Tess. (Tess had suggested that she help Max with memory retrieval techniques to remember their planet, and Max wouldn't work with Tess then.) Max wanted to win Liz back. Sending Future Max back to talk to Tess was useless. It was present day Maxís mind that needed changing. As long as Max was primarily interested and concerned about Liz, he would not be doing what needed to be done to keep the Skins from overrunning Earth. Future Liz and Future Max chose the specific date and time, because they believed that Future Max would be able to convince Liz that what he would say to her would be true. Future Max knew Liz. He knew what had happened in the past between them. Future Max didnít know Tess, because she had left town. Again, it was useless for Future Max to go to Tess, because she already wanted to work with Max. It was Max, who wouldnít work with Tess, because he cared about Liz. Future Max couldnít go to current day Max, because they would both die, if they encountered each other. Perhaps Future Liz could have gone back in time to convince Max to work with Tess. However, I doubt that would have worked. Max loved Liz. I think Future Max and Future Liz believed that Max would not willingly turn to Tess, unless Max fell out of love with Liz. It would have been useless for either Future Liz or Future Max to go back in time to talk to Michael or Isabel. Both Michael and Isabel already had good relationships with Tess. Tess worked with Michael to hone his powers cracking rocks, and Isabel had saved Tessí life, when Whitaker tortured her. Nevertheless, Tess left Roswell in the first timeline. Future Max went back in time to talk to Liz, because both Future Liz and Future Max thought the best chance of saving Earth from the enemies (the Skins) was to get Max to work with Tess, so the enemies could be destroyed before they overtook Earth. ````````````````````````````````````````````````````` quote:I think so, too, Algieba. One of the things I enjoyed about Roswell was seeing that people could change with time. Sheriff Valenti started off being an overt threat to the aliens. Kyle wanted to make Max pay for becoming involved with Liz. Topolsky worked to obtain information on the aliens for the FBI Special Unit. With time, they all changed in ways that were admirable. Algieba, Iím very fond of reading what you write, and especially what you write in defense of parents protecting their children. [ 01-18-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-18-2004 09:42 PM by shapeshifter
quote:Citrus & Vine, reading this post I now see the whole EOTW episode as an act of Romeo and Juliet--with Future Max not telling Liz the whole plan, and then Liz not telling Max the plan. I'm no Shakespeare scholar, but doesn't another young man die as well? Perhaps Alex is the unfortuate representative of this role? |
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Posted 01-18-2004 10:43 PM by Algieba
I didn't mean to leave out the guys when I was talking about children so let me remedy that and say a few things in defense of Max. I usually see a big change come over a man when he becomes a father. I can't explain it very well but I've seen it over and over again with the most jaded of men. The male instinct is to protect his mate and offspring. If it wasn't there, women and children wouldn't have survived very long against the harsh conditions of primitive Earth. I think Max went through this change even before his son was born. When he and Tess were talking in the pod chamber, he sounded like he was sort of hoping she would want to terminate the pregnancy. After he saw the tiny hand of his son glowing in Tess's womb and he reached out and touched his hand to his son's hand, he got that look that so many new fathers have. Kind of an amazement and awe. I suppose some will say that was a mindwarp too but it was such a touching moment I hope no one tries to ruin it with that interpretation. When he was talking to Isabel and she asked if it was a girl or a boy, Max and Isabel both were overwhelmed with the idea of Max becoming a father. It was a special moment for them both. I have noticed some posters really resent Max's seeming obsession with finding his son. I don't see how he could have done anything but what he did. Max loved his son even before he was born. He was a good father. He tried to do what was best for Zan even though it hurt him to give him up. Max was every bit as good a father to his son as Tess was a good mother. I think something very good came out of the tragedy of Max and Tess. A new life. Someone who was greatly loved by both his parents. And both his parents sacrificed their own happiness to see that their child would have a chance to live a normal, happy life. [ 01-18-2004: Message edited Algieba ] |
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Posted 01-18-2004 11:16 PM by Citrus and Vine
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Thank you, Algieba! Hi shapeshifter! IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2c11a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2c13a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2c16a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2c18a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2c1aa87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2c1ca87e0.jpg I also especially loved that glowing look of love for their child that Max expressed when he looked up at Tess to share the moment with her! (Alas, no screencap of that moment.)
[ 01-19-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-19-2004 03:02 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: That's precisely my point!! Just because Max put his "faith and trust" in the wrong person that was his problem. What's so bad about death, lies, and betrayal between two people truly in love? I'm sure Liz would have grieved for "the love of her life", but she would have eventually moved on and found happiness elsewhere.
quote: Yes, since Tess betrayed Max after he CHOSE her, I guess he couldn't afford to die. So, his human girl was still available on Earth and he CHOSE her again. If only Liz would have realized that Max wasn't worth her time and troubles.
quote: Let's just agree to disagree. I was shown FLiz in the Granilith with FMax telling him "that he had to do this". That does not tell me that FLiz made up the plan, the plan could have all been FMax's from the get go. Just like you say FLiz, FMax, and Liz were responsible for their own choices, so was Max. I was told that Tess was needed for the Four-Square to save Earth. I didn't hear that Max had to sleep with Tess to save Earth. Max CHOSE to sleep with Tess and what ever consequences that came from it, that was his OWN CHOICE!! Unless, on Antar the aliens having "sex" and making babies is a form of warfare. Frankly, I didn't see how Max and Tess having "sex" was honing their powers to save Earth. Tess still betrayed her "King" and Max still married Liz anyway. I guess Earth is surely doomed now!! Again, FMax should have went to Tess and told her the truth, not that it would have made any difference. If he couldn't go to Tess, then he should have went to his sister or his second-in-command. After all they were his family and his OWN KIND and they could have told Max about Earth's survival. Then, since Liz had already broken up with Max in Destiny, he could have left Liz alone and saved Earth, his planet, and his people. After, if Max was still alive and was in love with Liz, then I could see them working together to build their future. |
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Posted 01-19-2004 06:13 AM by Abducted Bookworm
I would strongly disagree that Sheriff Valenti changed. He investigated aliens, a potential threat - he knew that aliens had been committing murders. He found out that the aliens living in Roswell were good people, and therefore protected instead of arrested them. The aliens found out they could trust Valenti. I don't think he was ever portrayed as a bad guy. He made incorrect judgements that were reasonable based on the information he had at the beginning of S1, but as he learned more his judgements changed. Not his character.
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Posted 01-19-2004 09:24 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hi Abducted! This is what I actually said. quote: Valenti's character was lacking, when he falsely arrested Liz and Alex. He wanted to coerce them into talking to him. That was wrong. Healing Liz was helpful. It saved Liz's life. Arresting Liz and Alex falsely was wrong. It showed poor judgment on Valenti's part. Valenti made up for his earlier poor judgment by shooting Hubble, when Hubble tried to kill Max, even though Valenti thought, like Hubble, that Max was an alien. Valenti got his priorities straight, after first behaving badly towards Liz and Alex. [ 01-19-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
Posted 01-19-2004 09:25 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Max already chose Liz over Tess, when he pushed Tess aside at the cave to go to Liz. He chose Liz from the beginning. He chose Liz, when he had visions of Tess. He chose Liz, when he learned what his mission on Earth and on Antar were. He chose Liz when he learned from his mother that he had been married to Tess at the time of his death in his previous lifetime. Max chose Liz. Liz rejected Max. Max won Liz back, in the first timeline. In the second timeline, Liz rejected Max again. In addition, Liz removed herself from being a choice that Max could make now or in the future. Liz told Max she wanted to be with normal boys. She proved it, by going to bed with Kyle. The ball was in Lizís court. She alone could tell Max that she wanted to be with Max. It was Lizís choice. The choice had ceased being Maxís choice. Until Liz indicated to Max that she would accept him as more than a friend, Liz could not be a choice for Max. To act otherwise would be stalking Liz. Max would be going against her will and her stated wishes (to be with normal boys), if he were to pursue Liz further. Max joined Liz at the outdoor Christmas Eve celebration, at Lizís request. Max returned from the airport in Las Vegas to dance with her and tell her of his vision of them married to each other. Liz was the person with the choice. She chose not to tell Max she wanted him back. Liz chose to go out with Sean. When Liz discovered that she wasnít really interested in Sean much, she wanted to rekindle things with Max, by getting him to go to the prom with her. However, Liz didnít tell Max that was what she wanted. Maria knew that was what Liz wanted, but Max didnít. Liz failed to tell Max that she was interested in being with him again, as more than a friend. For a while, Max had a choice about being with Liz. After Liz left him at the cave, though, Maxís choice to be with Liz devolved to Lizís choice alone. The longer Liz waited to try to get back with Max, the more interested in Tess Max became. Liz lost her chance to be Maxís only love in this lifetime, because she rejected Max and didnít try to get back together with Max. |
Posted 01-19-2004 10:55 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: Liz never lost her chance to be Max's only love in this lifetime. Just because you think Max and Tess having "sex" on an observatory floor is LOVE, then that's your own opinion. I happen to think LOVE is more than just "sex", foot massages, and kissing!! To me, when you're truly in love with someone you make sacrifices for each other. You put your OWN wants and needs aside for the greater good. You don't use people or cover up your lies for your OWN selfish needs. Some can say that Liz was selfish all they want and made her own decisions. I would have loved to have seen Tess, Maria, and Isabel step up to the plate and make a decision with the fate of the world hanging on their shoulders. Let's see how unselfish each one of these girls would have been given the decision to save lives!! I never got the impression that Tess was ever "the love of Max's life" in this lifetime just by Max's statements in ITLAITB and Busted.
quote: If Tess was so important to Max, why wasn't she included in the everyone? Maybe it's just me, but Max never lost everyone if Tess was there everytime he turned around. Tess wouldn't have had to tell Max that "she'll be here for eternity", Max should have known that since he loved Tess.
quote: Even though Liz should have slapped Max off of that dock and left him period. I didn't hear Max profess his "great love" for Tess by that sorry statement at all. Max wanted to have "sex with someone like him and now he's over it". But, he got caught up in a web of deceit and lies and was stuck with the after effects. I don't know who was worse, Max for making that statement or Liz for taking him back. But, all I can say is if Tess was the "great love" of Max's life in this lifetime and his past lifetime, then Max should have stuck by her through thick and thin!! Especially, since Max shared his first sexual experience with Tess and she was the mother of his first child. I've heard all about being in "love" with more than one person at the same time. But, there is also a difference between "loving" someone and being "in love" with someone. Maybe Max was just confused between the two and couldn't make up his mind between Liz and Tess!! [ 01-19-2004: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
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Posted 01-19-2004 11:56 AM by Citrus and Vine
Sonia E.
quote: IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/10aba87e0.jpg Future-Liz told Future-Max he had to go back in time to get Max to fall out of love with Liz, so Max would work with Tess to save Earth. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1211a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/120ba87e0.jpg Future Liz and Future Max wanted Earth to be saved. They wanted Max to want to work with Tess. The only way they could figure out to do that was to get Max to fall out of love with Liz. Otherwise, Max would refuse to work with Tess as he had in the past. They both knew that Max wanted to be with Liz, and that as long as that was a possibility, Max wouldnít work with Tess. Earth and everyone else would be lost. The timing was critical. They couldnít wait for Isabel or Michael or Tess to try to persuade Max to stop focusing his energies on Liz and start working with Tess. Time was of the essence. We know that the husks for the Skins were becoming ready. Destroying the husks was key to destroying the Skins. Future Liz and Future Max lacked the ability to get Max to work with Tess any other way, than by going back and convincing Liz that Max had to fall out of love with her, or he wouldnít work with Tess to save Earth. Future Liz couldnít have gone back in time to convince her younger self, because, if she did, both she and present day Liz would be destroyed. Only Future Max could go back in time to convince Liz to help Max fall out of love with her. Again, Future Liz, Future Max, and current day Liz all wanted Earth to be saved. The benefit was to Liz personally, as well as to Earth and the aliens. Future Liz and Future Max didnít want Liz to have to face unending battles with aliens for the remainder of her life. (Future Max said, ìIíve fought a thousand battlesÖî) ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
quote: There is a difference. Max had once been in love with Liz. Max probably would have waited for Liz, if she had asked him to wait for her, but she didnít. She told Max she only wanted to be friends with him. She treated him as though she only wanted to be friends with him. Liz didnít stay in love with Max. Max didnít stay in love with Liz. Liz went her separate way in terms of love, and so did Max. Max loved Tess. She wasnít Max's first love in his life on Earth, the way Liz once had been. With time, had Tess wanted to stay with Max, Max might have discovered that Tess was the love of his life. Their love was doomed however, because Tess was jealous of the feelings Max had once had for Liz, and because Tess wanted to be a royal on Antar, more than she wanted to stay on Earth with Max. Max loved Tess. He wasnít in love with Liz, when he was with Tess. Max knew he loved Tess and wanted to be with her. (At the prom, when Liz wanted Max to tell her that he didn't love Tess, he didn't tell Liz that, even though it was what she wanted to hear. Max loved Tess.) When Max told Tess that he felt like he had lost everyone, he didnít mention Tessí name, because Tess was there with him. Tess supported Max. She cared about him. She was willing to spend personal time with him. (Liz wasnít willing to do so. Liz only treated Max as a friend, who could never be anything more than just a friend to her.) Max went to the observatory, knowing that Tess spent time there. He had been happy with Tess there. Max went there that evening, because he was sad. Max had lost Isabelís approval before, when he went to New York without telling her. (He thought she knew, because Lonnie was impersonating her.) Max and Isabel worked things out between them. Max had lost Lizís friendship before. Liz abandoned Max at the cave and refused to talk to Max for the entire summer into the beginning of the fall school year. Max and Liz worked things out between them and became friends again. MAX: My whole life I've wanted to be this person, this normal person. Human. My whole life I've been thinking that this alien side of me was this bad thing. This thing that made me a freak. This monster. I realize that I haven't just been hiding from the government and the law all this time. I've been hiding from myself. I don't know what's going on anymore. I thought I knew but I don't. I've lost everyone. When Max went to the observatory and told Tess that he felt that he had lost everyone, he meant that he felt he had lost his ability to protect them anymore. Things had changed. Alex had died. Isabel wanted to leave to be on her own. Liz wanted to be on her own. No one wanted the only thing Max had in life to offer anyoneóhis protection. Protecting others was Maxís greatest goal in life. Tess was willing to stand with Max on that for the moment. She said she would be with Max for eternity. (Liz also made a similar statement to Max, which Liz, like Tess, broke in the future. Liz told Max that she would always be there for him. However, she decided to go away to college, with or without him. Like Tessí love, Lizís love for Max wasnít her primary concern in life, either.) Max stayed with Tess at the observatory, because he was ready to embrace love with Tess. He wanted Tess to know that he loved her.
IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2cb0a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2cb4a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2cbaa87e0.jpg [ 01-19-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-20-2004 12:13 AM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Citrus and Vine- Let's just agree to disagree!! You see Max and Tess's relationship as being "in love" and having something beautiful. But, I do not. You say that Max loved Tess because he had "sex" with her on an observatory floor. You say that Max loved Tess because he held hands with her and touched her. You say that Max loved Tess because he rubbed her feet. You say that Max loved Tess because he was finding an apartment. You say that Max loved Tess because he trusted, and was open and honest with her. You say that Max loved Tess because she got pregnant with his child. I say that if Max was "in love" with Tess he would have told her "I Love You" period. I never heard Max ever tell Tess that he loved her. Max never had a problem trusting, and being open and honest with Liz either. Max told Liz more than once "I Love You". Max held hands with Liz. Max kissed Liz's forehead and comforted her. Max kissed, hugged, and embraced Liz repeatedly. Max treated Liz tenderly and lovingly. Max was "in love" with Liz and never stopped loving her. Max and Liz's words in Destiny says it all:
quote: Just because Max and Liz were separated, it did not mean that they stopped being "in love" with each other. Just because Max had "sex" with someone other than Liz, it did not mean that he was not "in love" with Liz. Having "sex" with someone does not always mean that you're "in love" with that person or that you're making love to that person. I also don't recall Tess having a problem with Kyle "trimming her lamp" in TEOTW. That was until Liz interrupted them and let Tess know that Max was available. I really wonder how "great" Tess's love for Max was if she had been willing to have "sex" with Kyle? Just because Liz dated and kissed Sean, it did not mean that she was not "in love" with Max. Max and Liz both dated other people, even though Max went further in his relationship than Liz. In the end, they both were only still "in love" with each other and their hearts found each other again. I don't see Max and Liz becoming husband and wife, if they ever doubted their "love" for each other!! If Max had "fell out of love" with Liz, then Max would not have pursued her as soon as Tess blasted off in the Granilith. Max would not have given Liz a second thought if he was grieving for his "great love" Tess. Max would not have told Liz that "he was attracted to someone like him and now he's over it". You may see that as Max being "in love" with Tess, but I don't. Max might have cared for Tess, but I never saw Max being "in love" with Tess as a man loves a woman. If Max had been "in love" with Tess, he would not have kissed Liz goodbye in Departure. Max would have helped Liz with finding out about Alex's killer, then he would have left the planet with Tess. Max not only kissed Liz goodbye, he gave her his pendant to remember him. Why would Max care if Liz remembered him or not, if he wasn't "in love" with her? Max also cried for what he wouldn't have with Liz anymore!! Max was not stupid he knew that he was "in love" with Liz. Even though Liz broke up with Max in Destiny, and pretended to sleep with Kyle in TEOTW. Max had no choice but to take care of Tess while she was pregnant with his child. Max was supposed to be this noble and honorable guy, he didn't need to look like more of an ass after having "sex" with a girl in a one-night stand because he was feeling sorry for himself. Believe me if Max was "happy" after sleeping with Tess, he would have definitely wanted to sleep with her again. I don't recall Max and Tess having "sex" more than one time. If Tess knew Max was "in love" with her, Tess wouldn't have gotten upset and angry with Max in Departure because he kissed Liz goodbye. Tess knew that Max could never be "in love" with her like he was "in love" with Liz, being pregnant with his son or not. Tess's words to Max in Departure says it all:
quote:
quote: Liz was not made or recreated for Max or his Destiny. Max and Liz "fell in love" with each other because their hearts lead them to choose each other. No one told or made Max and Liz "fall in love" with each other. You can't tell your heart who to love, or make your heart stop loving someone even when it's in pain. So, Max and Liz never "fell out of love" with each other. Max and Liz both went through trials and tribulations and in the end their "love" was stronger because their hearts still only "loved" each other. I never saw Max as being a robot, even though he acted like one when he was with Tess. Max could not just push a button to turn on and off his feelings. Either Max was "in love" with Tess or he was not. Or either Max was "in love" with Liz or he was not. Love and life doesn't work like that, no matter how much you try to make someone "love" you. Max proved to me who he was "in love" with and that was Liz!! Max might have lost his "virginity" to Tess and gave her his first child, but Liz is the one who held Max's heart and that never changed. Even when Tess came back in 4AAAB, if Max had been "in love" with her, he wouldn't have tried to kill her. I don't care that Max was mad with Tess because she betrayed him. If Max had been "in love" with Tess, he would have felt some kind of sympathy towards her. Instead Max tried to kill her and wouldn't even heal her leg. You're right, Max only cared about his son, and that meant that the only affections that he ever showed Tess was because she got pregnant from their one-night stand. Max was stuck with Tess until her true colors were revealed!! Max's words to Tess in 4AAAB says it all:
quote: I didn't hear Max say anything about being "in love" with Tess, only caring about her. I know Max cared about Tess because she was the only one that stuck by him and she was pregnant with his son. I don't see where being "in love" comes into play. I don't see Max being "in love" with Tess like a man loves a woman. I really can't believe I am defending Max this time. But, O WELL!! I also agree that Roswell is left open to many interpretations, you have yours and I have mine!! So, let's just agree to disagree. |
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Posted 01-20-2004 12:45 AM by mesmerized
Citrus of Vine I could understand how you can never understood about the intensity of the love Max and Liz has for each other. Max never fall out of love with Liz ever.. He might have experienced the mindblowing sex with Tess but his morning after did'nt ever reflect the love that you said he has for Tess. He only start to care for Tess because of his child. He admit that he was stupid and irisponsible. I don't know why I still care about defending the so called Love Max has for Liz. But I think it's still there. Even Tess acknowledged it whole heartedly. She even told him Why can't he feel the same way about her.Max has the natural response of protecting Liz than with Tess.Even in the end he gave up the quest to find his son for Liz. Until his Son and Tess drop over for an overnight visit. When you love somebody that intense that you risk everything to save her life you can never ever fall out of love easily not even for a million years long. |
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Posted 01-20-2004 01:00 AM by pixiedude
One of the interesting characters who entered the cast in S2 who mysteriously disappeared without a trace by S3 was Sean. I always wished they'd said what happened to him by the end. I thought of him because I rented a movie this evening called The Anarchist's Cookbook, which stars Devon Gummersall, who played Sean. It's about a college-aged guy's adventures living in what used to be called a hippie crash pad in Dallas. Gummersall's character, Puck, doesn't have Sean's charismatic self-confidence, and I couldn't imagine him falling for the silly rhetoric, but for a little while in the beginning, I could imagine that this was the continuation of Sean's story, assuming he'd left Roswell as soon as his probation was up. |
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Posted 01-20-2004 06:17 AM by jjac
Sonia E, WID . You summed it up perfectly! |
Posted 01-20-2004 10:16 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote:pixiedude and Everyone! IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/24fea87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/244ca87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2454a87e0.jpg
quote: People say ìI love youî in more than words. Liz once loved Max, but she stopped being in love with Max. She stopped saying ìI love youî, because she stopped loving Max. Max stayed open and honest with Liz. He also stayed open and honest with Tess. Max stopped saying ìI love youî to Liz, after she left him at the cave. He tried unsuccessfully to win her back in the second timeline. Max fell out of love with Liz, when he saw her in bed with Kyle. Max stopped being in love with Liz. He stopped kissing Liz. He stopped hugging her. He no longer embraced her. He wasnít in love with Liz. ````````````````````````````````
quote:Max didnít protect Liz over Tess. Max defended and protected Tess, when Liz began asking Tess questions. Max protected Tess over Liz. Max didnít stay on Earth to protect Liz, even though she wanted him to stay and even though they hadn't found Alex's killer. Max chose to go with Tess. ``````````````````````````````` quote: Liz and Max once shared an intense love for each other. They fell out of love with each other for a while. Later, they were able to find their way back to each other. Liz fell out of love with Max. Max fell out of love with Liz. Neither of them was in love with the other, when Max became intimate with Tess. ```````````````````````````````````````
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Max got over being in love with her. Max didnít want Tess to be turned over to the government, not even to make things safer for his child. He voted not to turn Tess in. Max promised Liz he would make Tess pay for what she had done. Max wasnít in love with Tess anymore, but once, he had been in love with Tess. Some people have said that Max had a one-night stand with Tess. That is incorrect. Max knew Tess and loved Tess, before they were intimate together at the observatory. He trusted Tess and confided his innermost thoughts to Tess. He continued his relationship with Tess, beyond their evening of making love together. He formed a committed relationship with Tess. He planned to spend his future with her. Although some people have said making love alone together at night in an empty observatory isnít romantic to them, for Tess and Max it was especially romantic. They had come to Earth from beyond the visible stars. Making love in the observatory with the stars above them was the perfect place for them. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/29d6a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2ab8a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2ac0a87e0.jpg [ 01-20-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-20-2004 02:33 PM by mesmerized
Okay once again. Remember when Tess was calling Liz the B word. Max pounced on Tess quickly than before. And when they were out of the cave running for their life because the Granilith was going to blow up he instinctively held Liz's hands and hugs her when the granith explodes. He never did that to Tess. Max was protective of Tess the same way he was protective of Michael or Isabel but not the same degree that he is with Liz. If your saying about his confrontation with Liz about her trying to question Tess regarding her power. I think Max was in turmoil over the result of his unprotected sex with Tess and Liz's unyielding quest to find the truth behind Alex death. But if you did not notice Max was pretty shaken up to after Liz left. If your holding up about the so called romantic rendevous of Max an Tess. Why does Max has this Oh my God what have I done look on his face. If he falled out of love with Liz as you tre to explain. He should have that bliss and contentment in hisface in his morning after consider the fact that it was a mind boggling sex that last for an hour. And one thing more if your going to defend that Max fell in love with Tess because of the sex. that was not enough to fall in love with. if your basing the love because of the Sex. Everyone can have mindblowing sex anytime anywhere it can be romantic or it can be crass and hurried. But I don't call sex in a public area on a cold floor romantic. Romance should have candles and the atmosphere was right and both are feeling happy and giddy and content. not sad or defeated like Max is feeling that moment. If he really falls out of love with Liz this hot electric thing that was coursing through his body. could have burn every feelings he has for Liz and should have given him a more relax happy appearance. Not the uncomfortable feelings that was so visible in his demeanor afterwards. And for once He told Liz before and after Tess blown up Liz: do you love her. Max:not like I love you. Then when Tess was on her way to Antar he said to her again Max:I've been wrong about a lot. But I'm right about one thing. To get you into my life, to be around you. TO LOVE YOU. |
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Posted 01-20-2004 08:01 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hey, mesmerized!
quote: Thatís right. It does take time to fall back in love again. Max fell out of love with Liz, when he saw Liz in bed with Kyle. ______ IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/11f6a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1225a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1227a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1229a87e0.jpg Sean talked to Liz about her relationship with Max, the evening Alex showed slides of Sweden. Liz and Max werenít in love with each other then. Liz called themselves ìfriends plusî. When Tess and Max were held hostage by Brody/Larek, Tess thought Max was in love with Liz. However, Max didnít say he was in love with Liz, because he wasnít. He told Tess that it was difficult to describe what his feelings for Liz were. That evening, Max came to Tess in the night to her bedroom, to tell Tess that he remembered her. IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/offmenu/tn_offmenu178_jpg.jpg IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/offmenu/tn_offmenu298_jpg.jpg Max wasnít back in love with Liz, when he went with her to the prom. Liz wasnít in love with Max, either, especially not when he kissed Tess. It took time for Max to fall in love with Tess. He didnít kiss Tess, until he was completely certain that things between him and Liz were completely over. He wasnít in love with Liz, when he kissed Tess. Max wasnít in love with Liz when he and Tess made love.
MAX (to Liz): I've been really wrong about a lot. But I was right about one thing: To get you into my life, to be around you, to love you. Max wasnít in love with Liz, when he made that statement. He said that he had been right to get Liz into his life, to be around her, to love her. Max had risked everything to save Lizís life. He risked his safety and the safety of Michael and Isabel. Liz returned the favor by saving Maxís and Isabelís lives. (Michaelís love for Maria saved him! Michael was in love with Maria, and he stayed on Earth to be with her. ) Max didnít say he was in love with Liz. He wasnít in love with Liz, then. After he told Liz that he was right to love her, he stepped away from her. They werenít arm and arm in love, planning a future together. Max wasnít in love with Liz. Some time, possibly weeks or months, after Tessí departure, Max asked Liz out on a date. (Liz and Max broke into the convenience store basement after school had begun again. They had begun dating sometime before that. Tess had left near the end of the previous school year.) Some people have said that people who are in love cannot fall out of love quickly. I think if you talk to people whose relationships have failed, some will tell you that it can happen in an instant. Infidelity or betrayal and/or the realization that the person one thought they loved isnít who they thought they were can turn love to hate or disdain in an instant. People can fall out of love in a moment. Tess wasnít who Max thought she was. He thought she loved him. He trusted her. He planned to spend his life with her. Tess betrayed his love and trust for her. He fell out of love with Tess. People who are betrayed in love sometimes find it healthy to begin dating again. Sometimes, they realize that the fault of the betrayal was not in themselves, but rather with the person who betrayed them. Max and Tess had been a couple for a brief period of time, before Max learned of Tessí betrayal. Max saw Tess as just using him. People can rapidly fall out of love with someone they think just used them and who they think never loved them. Some time after Tess left, Max was ready to test the dating waters with Liz. Max and Liz werenít in love with each other, when they began dating after Tess left. Max was ready to start dating Liz and ìmaking all her dreams come trueî, a not unusual phrase for a guy who starts dating someone he wants to impress. As you say mesmerized, it takes time to fall in love again. On their date, Max received the distress message from Zan. He began looking for ways to help his son. Max dated Liz, but he didnít begin kissing her, until she sat on his lap and began kissing him. Even then, he was taken aback. He asked, ìWho are you?î It was an unexpected change in their relationship. Max wasnít in love with Liz, when Tess left. Liz didnít fall in love with Max, upon Tessí departure, and Max didnít fall in love with Liz then either. They spent some time apart. Max asked Liz out. She agreed. They began dating. [i]screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momoís Roswell |
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Posted 01-20-2004 11:12 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Citrus and Vine- As I stated previously let's just agree to disagree with your turning Max and Tess's relationship into something beautiful and wonderful!! But, whatever floats your boat on what you feel is acceptable as "love". If you feel that Max "loved" Tess because he had "sex" on an observatory floor under the stars with her, then that's great for you. If you also feel that Max "loved" Tess until she betrayed him, again that's your own opinion on "love". I guess Max's own opinion on how he viewed his relationship with Tess didn't matter to you. If you feel that Max and Liz were robots and could "fall in and out of love" with each other at the drop of a dime, then again that's also your own opinion on "love". Like you stated previously, people can say "I love you" in more than words. So, just because Max and Liz didn't say the words didn't mean that they were not "in love" with each other. I'm also quite sure that when Max and Liz "consummated" their marriage by "making love" as husband and wife, it was beautiful and romantic. I'm sure that Max made Liz's wedding night "special" with lighted candles while they "made love" as husband and wife. I didn't need to see Max and Liz "make love" in a public place because that was a "private affair" between two people who were only ever "in love" with each other. Like Liz stated in Heat Wave "let's hope nothing exploded", when Max and Liz "made love" to each other on their wedding night as husband and wife. I'm also curious as to why didn't Max and Tess become "inseparable" after having "sex"? In TEOTW FMax told Liz that after they "cemented" their relationship they became "inseparable" and nothing came between them again until TEOTW. Why didn't Max and Tess have the same reaction after having "sex"? I certainly didn't see Max being "happy and contented" after sleeping with Tess. Max didn't even want to talk to Tess, let alone hold her hand the next day in school. What made Max and Liz's special night of "making love" in the first timeline different from Max and Tess's having "sex" in the second timeline? Why didn't Max and Tess become "inseparable for life" after having "sex" in the second timeline? Hmmmm.... Also, if you feel that Michael and Maria "loved" each other because he stayed on Earth for her, that's also your own opinion on "love". I don't call Michael having "sex" with Maria first and then telling her he was leaving the Earth as a sign of "love" at all. If Michael "loved" Maria he would have told her first after letting her "see him" that he was leaving the Earth. Maria should have been given the "choice" to lose her "virginity" to Michael. Again, it's all according to how you view relationships and "love". If you believe because people have "sex" with each other that it's always a sign of "love", then again that's your own opinion on what's important to you in a relationship. But, I have to disagree!! Michael might have stayed on Earth for Maria, but Maria dumped Michael like yesterday's garbage when her so-called music career came into play after Billy came to town in BTM. At the end of Graduation, I never did see a resolution to Michael and Maria's loving relationship. But, Maria did leave Roswell with Michael and the gang in a van. But, Citrus and Vine you just keep right on praising Max and Tess's loving, open, and honest relationship, if that's what you like and it makes you feel good. I don't have to praise Max and Liz to make them look good. Max and Liz look good all on their own even without being together to me. I will continue to talk about Max and Liz being only ever "in love" with each other, and how they never "fell out of love" with each other. No matter what obstacles and road blocks that were presented to Max and Liz, "true love conquered all" in the end. That's all that mattered, and the end justified the means to me. Max and Liz had a beautiful love story between an "alien boy and a human girl", who only ever "loved" each other. Max and Liz didn't need to live in the past, they "lived" and "loved" each other in the present and beyond. Max and Liz left Roswell together, married each other, and sailed into their "future" as man and wife. My only regret to Max and Liz's story is that Alex had to lose his life in the process and that will never be acceptable to me!! Again, I can't believe I'm here writing something positive about Max and Liz!! |
Posted 01-21-2004 12:20 PM by Citrus and Vine
quote: Tess wasnít Liz!! In the second timeline, however, Liz wasnít that attached to Max, either, when they became a couple again. Max stayed uninvolved with Tess, after Tess left. Liz never had to deal with Max kissing Tess goodbye, while she and Max were a couple, as Tess did. Liz broke off with Max anyway and left Roswell. When she returned, she was willing to go off to college on her own, without Max. Being with Max wasnít that important to her. (She later accepted Maxís proposal, left Roswell with him, and in time married him.) My guess would be that ìonce burned, twice shyî, as the saying goes. Tess and Liz felt burned by the otherís involvement with Max. Max felt burned seeing Liz in bed with Kyle and burned by Tessí betrayal. In the first timeline, Liz accepted Max after he serenaded her and did all he could to win her back. When that failed in the second timeline, Max probably kept part of his heart protected from further hurt. In any case, love wasnít so important to Liz after Max and Tess were intimate, and it wasnít so important to Tess, after Max and Liz had been so close, and Max had rejected her. All three people probably felt burned by love. In any case, having sex, making love, being intimate with someone is often insufficient for people to stay together. There usually has to be more in a relationship than love and/or sexual intimacy, no matter how good they are. Maria loved Michael, and he loved her. But Maria felt stifled in her relationship with Michael, even though she loved him ìmore than he could knowî. She broke up with Michael, even though she loved him and their love life was good. Although Future Max told Liz that in the first timeline, they had become inseparable, it might not have meant that Liz left home to be with Max. They might have been inseparable in the sense that they became exclusive with each other. So, over time, Liz and Max would have had time to get to know each other more, without the pressures of supporting themselves or leaving their parents. (Or maybe they did leave their homes to be with each other. ) To me itís pointless to ask who loved who more. However, the debate will probably continue. Iím a bit surprised, though, Sonia E., that you care whether or not Max or Tess cared for each other at all, since you have held that Liz should never have gotten back with Max, much less married him, because he failed to grovel to her about Tess, and because Max proved himself, in your eyes, unworthy of Lizís love. As I recall, you are hoping that Liz divorces Max. I guess that means there is a lot left for me to learn about what people think! |
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Posted 01-21-2004 03:16 PM by True Daisy lover4ever
Max never loved tess period. Thats all i have to say, he might of cared about her, but love and caring are two different things. Max loved liz, he had loved her since the third girl. You cant just turn those feelings off like that. His feelings for liz ran deep, the only time it was doubted it was when max saw liz in bed with kyle. Now, i could of tolerated tess if they didnt make her into such a dependent on max. and quoting all this, destiny crap, and having her betray the group, i mean why couldnt they have her be good, move on max and go to someone like kyle. I wish that none of that betrayal never happend on roswell, than it could of been more satisying than the stuff we were actually suppose to believe on tv. |
Posted 01-21-2004 06:28 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
quote: That's precisely my point, and for once I couldn't agree with you more!! Max felt the same way in TEOTW when he told Liz "but she can't be you. Tess can never be you." That statement that Max made to Liz rang true even after Max slept with Tess. quote: I loved that Liz could be the strong independent young woman that I loved when it came to Max. I loved that Liz could make decisions for herself and stick to them. I loved that Liz could tell Max exactly how she felt and called him on his mistakes. Max needed a strong independent woman who gave it to him straight with no holds barred. Max didn't need a lap dog like Tess, who was a "yes" man to everything Max said and did. Max needed a woman who could challenge him and let him know when he was being "controlling" and "arrogant." Did that mean that Max wasn't important to Liz? No, Liz loved Max with all her "heart and soul". Liz could let Max go and put herself first when she needed to. After all, Liz put Max and the entire planet before herself in TEOTW. I say that it was about damn time that Liz put herself first, because she so deserved it!!
quote: Again, ITA seeing that Maria used Michael for "celebratory sex" in Ch-Ch-Changes and dumped him like yesterday's trash. Maria used Michael for "sex" and that had nothing to do with "love." But, after Maria's non-existent music career flopped she ran back to Michael without a care in the world. I'm glad that Michael didn't take Maria back right away and had some pride, even though as you say "their love life was good." Did Maria also tell Michael that she loved him "more than he could know"? I know in Ch-Ch-Changes in Liz's letter to Max she told him "I love you more than you could ever know."
quote: I don't recall me asking who loved who more, and I didn't realize that this was a debate. I was responding to posts read on this thread about how "great" Max and Tess's and Michael and Maria's loving relationships were. If this was pointless, I doubt that you would be here giving your opinions and responding to posts!!
quote: Don't be surprised Citrus and Vine, I loved Max and Liz's relationship especially in S1. I never cared about Tess period, and Max just lost whatever brain cells he had when he was with Tess. Max was a "lost soul" during and after his relationship with Tess. Only after Max died in Panacea and Liz brought him back to life in Chant Down Babylon, did Max "wake up" and smell the roses. Max and Liz will always be my favorite couple, even though their relationship was lacking in S2 and S3. Max and Liz along with Alex and Kyle were the only reasons why I continued to watch Roswell. I never expected Max to grovel to Liz about Tess. I expected Max to own up to his own mistakes and "learn" and "grow" from them. Since I didn't see much resolution in Max and Liz's relationship, yes I thought Liz deserved someone much better than Max. But, I can be just as positive as well as negative about Max and Liz's relationship. As I've stated in my previous posts, I have been quite positive lately!! But, I'm also a bit surprised Citrus and Vine because it must have been quite upsetting for you to watch Roswell without Max and Tess and Michael and Maria being together. It must have been doubly upsetting for you that Max and Liz were "in love" with each other and were reunited again. I mean, in every one of your posts that I read you continually state all the things that Liz did to Max, and how Liz was cruel and unfair to Max. So, it must have been quite painful for you to watch especially when the episodes involved Max and Liz's relationship. Since Max married Liz in Graduation and Michael and Maria's relationship was unresolved, I gather that episode was real low on your list of favorites.
quote: DITTO!! |
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Posted 01-21-2004 10:45 PM by mesmerized
In the first timeline Liz is the one who proposed to Max. Reasoning that Romeo and Juliet married young. In this timeline it was Max who proposed to liz. Because he finally realized that without her he can't be the hero the great man he was supposed to be. As for Max feelings towards Tess he admitted that meeting someone like him it attracted him. But it was a fleeting feeling because he was over it. I think every guy feels the same way when they meet someone that looks like Tess even married guy does too. It's a good as it is at the moment but not a keeper. Not someone you could spend your whole life with. As for living for Antar. Tess was not the main reason that Max is willing to live earth for. This was supposedly their destiny to go home. They were bound to go home eventually with or without his child. they knew this the moment they heard their mother's message in the cave. This is the only way they could go home. And they have to do it. And yes Max is willing to live Liz because he has a child now and that is normal that every parents has to do. He's not living this planet cause he choosed Tess over Liz but he has risponsibility as a parent to protect his child at all cause. I don't hate him for it. and certainly Liz does'nt hate him for doing that too. |
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Posted 01-22-2004 05:55 PM by Algieba
I have some questions about Michael's treatment of Maria in Departure. I ask these questions based on certain assumptions that I think everyone will agree on. Michael and Maria made love, then Michael told her he was leaving. Maria did not go to Michael's home with the expectation that she and Michael would end up making love. Nowhere do I remember Maria preparing herself for a sexual union with Michael by making sure she was protected against pregnancy. She may have but it was not mentioned nor did she and Michael discuss such preparations. Michael criticized Max for not being careful enough to see that Tess did not become pregnant, so we have to assume that Michael had some plans in mind for himself, however, as far as I know, all forms of birth control except abstinence have a percentage of failures. If anyone disagrees with these assumptions, my questions might not make sense. I read that some cut dialogue from the love making scene of Michael and Maria included Maria asking Michael why he had not told her he was leaving before they made love and she gave up her virginity to him. I can understand why they cut it. What answer could Michael have given that wouldn't have sounded every bit as jerky as Max's, "I was attracted to someone like that but now I'm over it." My questions. Where are the questions about Michael's behavior? Have they been there and I just missed them? Why was it okay for Michael to make love to Maria without informing her that he was leaving Earth and she might never see him again? Didn't she have a basic right to be informed of this so she could make a choice about her actions or did Michael just assume because he had warned her he could only promise her today that he didn't have to warn her about tomorrow? Why was Michael not concerned that their love making might result in another alien/human baby? There was no mention anywhere of some special alien power to prevent pregnancy and there aren't any human ones that are one hundred per cent infallible. Why was Michael not concerned that Maria might be completely alone on Earth going through a painful pregnancy, unable to rely on human doctors, and possibly have a stillborn birth? The much maligned Max is giving up everything to take care of Tess and his soon to be born son so Michael had an example of what could happen to Maria if he left her. He did not know at that point that the assertion by Tess that the baby could not survive Earth's atmosphere was not true. Michael's reason for not leaving was because he realized he loved Maria? If he had decided that although he liked her very much, he really wasn't in true, true love with her, would that have made it okay to leave her? Perhaps some will say all these reasons figured into why Michael decided not to leave but that doesn't change the fact that he did make love to her without telling her this was not only the first but also probably the last time. He did then leave her and she believed him to the extent that she was crying at her house with Liz. He did walk away from her and intend to leave with Max, Isabel and Tess. I give him credit for coming around in the end. It proves he is a decent person with a conscience but that doesn't make it "right" for him to have put Maria in that kind of danger and risk to her health without deciding beforehand that he would be there for her. She would have been totally alone trying to cope with how to get medical help without alerting the alien hunters that a little alien was about to be born. Even if she didn't become pregnant, I have a big problem with Michael keeping his imminent departure a secret and not letting Maria decide if she still wanted the sexual relationship with him under those conditions. The writers have her hardly blinking an eye when she found out the truth. "How long do we have?" Do any such females like that really exist in the real world? Talk about doormats! I have criticized Max for some of his actions but I still like him and think he is a strong, decent character. I'm curious why others who are super critical of Max have not spoken up in criticism of Michael. Again we have a double standard. [ 01-22-2004: Message edited Algieba ] |
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Posted 01-22-2004 09:08 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hey Algieba and everyone! At the time the episode aired, there was some strong criticism from some fans over the very points you mentioned. Those fans don't seem to be posting on this thread. There is an Anti-Max-and-Tess thread and a Dreamers thread. Both groups of fans blame Max for their dismay over things Max did or didn't do. That's why the character Max continues to be criticized. Also, some Stargazer fans blame Max for returning to life, while Alex did not, in the episodes. Stargazer fans also blame Max for not supporting Isabel's desire to go to college in California or her desire to tell their parents they were aliens. There again, even though Michael opposed Isabel's leaving and opposed Isabel telling her mother she was an alien, Michael is never (to the best of my knowledge) criticized for opposing Isabel's plan to go far away to college or for opposing Isabel telling her parents she was an alien. Michael perhaps gets less criticism for doing some of the same things Max did, because he's Michael. It's as Max said to Michael in Independence Day. MAX: You keep telling me how lucky I am...to have a great home, great parents. But in one way, it's harder for me, because when I screw up, I have no excuses. But you, you can do and say anything you want because you have Hank, and you can blame it on that. Perhaps people are more willing to forgive Michael, because he grew up in an awful home situation. Perhaps they don't expect as much from Michael. In the The Departure, Michael prepares to tell Maria that he is leaving Earth. He makes a special dinner for her, incorporating meaningful items. Maria embraces Michael. He protests that he needs to tell her something first, but Maria stops him from talking further. The issues you have raised, Algieba, about possible pregnancy, and Michael planning to leave Earth are valid concerns. Michael gets off from a lot of criticism, because within hours of leaving Maria, he decides not to leave Earth. Michael did the right thing (in terms of caring about Maria) within a short period of time, so he is generally considered to be an ok guy for how he handled matters. Tess fans hate that Max didnít go with Tess to Antar (and/or they hate the writers for Tess being responsible for Alexís death and for intending to hand over Max, Michael and Isabel over to Kivar). Liz fans hate that Max didnít read Lizís mind and figure out that she hadnít really slept with Kyle (and/or they hate the writers for Max sleeping with Tess, having a child with her, and planning to leave Earth with her; some Dreamers also hate that Max didnít grovel to Liz for being with Tess, after Liz broke up with Max.) Michael didnít leave Maria in The Departure. He wasnít intimate with anyone except Maria, and Michael had no children. So again, Michael is generally less criticized than Maxóat least on this thread. (I think there used to be an Anti-Michael-and-Maria thread at one time. Maybe it's still around. If so, you might find lots of criticism of Michael there.)
quote: Iím probably even less critical of Max than you are. I think Max acted responsibly, after he made mistakes. I admire Max and the other characters who helped and protected those they loved. For me, the double standard isnít between Max and Michael, because Michael is so little discussed on the general discussion threads. For me, there is a double standard for Liz or Alex or Isabel, compared to Max. Some fans who roundly criticize Max overlook the same actions in Liz or Alex or Isabel. Some fans are willing to defend Lizís and Alexís and Isabel's actions, but not Maxís actions. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````````````
quote: Sometimes, what people dislike in themselves, they criticize in others. Liz called Max controlling, but it was Liz who had control issues. Liz liked to be in control. Topolsky noted it, too. Liz wanted to be the one in control. LIZ: Okay, the world is this incredibly mysterious place, and science is just this way of figuring it out. With science, there are answers to everything. Facts. When you're conducting an experiment, you're in control of everything. Liz liked to be in control. When Max wanted to take a step back from their relationship for a while, Liz lost control of their relationship. When Max came in to talk to Liz about seeing her with Kyle, Liz took umbrage. Instead of recognizing that Max had feelings for her, she lit into him with a lecture about her right to see whoever she wanted. Max wasnít trying to control Liz. On the contrary, Max said it was ok with him, that she saw Kyle. Max understood when he came in that Liz was free to be with whomever she chose. Liz turned the discussion into a control issue, which it hadnít been. Max had come in to talk to Liz, because he had feelings for her, and he wanted to be with her. He helped her work, as they talked. Max wasnít being controlling in the situation. Liz was being controlling. There were other times as well that Liz wanted to be in control. Liz went off on her own to talk to Michael about Topolsky having Michaelís records. She went off on her own to talk to River Dog, even though Max didnít want her to. She broke into school, when she could have gotten the same or similar information from Max that had been given to him by Valenti, by way of Hanson. She went off to Sweden, telling no one. Liz liked to be in control. Liz was arrogant to a degree in not telling Max about Future Max and time travel. She was arrogant to a degree by not telling Max and the others that in the first timeline Tess left town, and Alex remained alive. That alone might have led everyone to consider that Tess might be involved in Alexís death. Max and Tess might never have gotten together, if Liz hadnít been what some might call arrogant, and what others might call self-protective. Liz told Maria about Future Max. She had opportunities to tell Max also. If she had told Max or Max and Tess and Michael, and Isabel, Alex might never have died. Liz and Max might have gotten together, and Tess might have left town, as she did in the first timeline. Or Tess might have continued to stay, even if Liz and Max got back together, since Tess had grown closer to her podmates, including Max now. Tess had found a home with the Valentis. Tess might especially want to stay with everyone, after discovering how important it really was for everyone to work together to survive. Lizís ìstrong independenceî led in part to Alexís death. Her ìstrong independenceî caused a rift in the cooperative efforts the aliens and humans had shared. Her ìstrong independenceî nearly cost Leanna/ Jennifer Coleman her life, because Liz blamed Jennifer for Alexís death. Lizís ìstrong independenceî nearly cost Max and Isabel their lives as well. Being a strong independent person is good if your actions affect no one else. However, all lives touch other lives. Liz failed to share vital information that could have prevented Alexís death or could have led to discovering how Alex died, much sooner. Being a strong independent person is particularly a disadvantage in romance, in being part of a couple, and in being married. Working with someone requires mutual love, respect, and consultation. For Liz to have a good marriage with anyone in the future, she would have needed to put aside some of her ìstrong independence.î A ìno holds barredî approach can be very alienating to people. If you love someone, speaking to them respectfully, in a non-blaming, cooperative, and open manner is likely to achieve the best outcome for all. Tess may be criticized for being supportive of Max, but good relationships require mutual support. They also require honesty. Tess wasnít honest with Max and the others about getting the translation done. She wasnít honest with them about causing Alexís death. Liz wasnít honest with Max and the other aliens about the first timeline and about time travel. She withheld vital information. Both Tess and Liz werenít honest at important times. Neither of them told it like it was, until it no longer mattered.
Liz demanded that Max heal Sean, even though she could see that Maxís hands were bound behind him, and that he was helpless to do anything. She knew that Max helped others, but she cared more about Sean, than she did about Max. Liz blamed aliens for Alexís death, but she had a part in Alexís death, too, since she helped to change the timeline. Liz blamed Max for having been intimate with Tess and for talking about their child. Liz didnít take responsibility for the fact that she broke up with Max, went to bed with Kyle, and played around with Sean. Liz blamed Max for her hurting her. But Max hadnít done what he did to hurt Liz. They werenít a couple. They hadnít been a couple for a year. Max got together with Tess, because he loved Tess. Liz blamed Tess for her own feelings of pain. Once Tess was dead, Liz felt happy. Taking responsibility for oneís own actions and feelings is important. Some people are able to take responsibility for their own actions and feelings. Sometimes Liz blamed other people for her feelings. [ 01-22-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-23-2004 06:27 AM by Abducted Bookworm
Fundamentally, the actions of other characters don't rise to the level of what Max did, with the exception of Liz and Maria's secret keeping (assuming they weren't mindwarped). Max's actions in ITLITB are unlike anything other characters did. Max did get Sean hurt, when Sean was willing to take the risk of tackling Brody. Max did not have the right to make that decision for Sean, let alone for everyone else in the situation with him. Max would have been right, perhaps, to risk his own life out of sympathy for Brody, despite his actions, but he had absolutely no right to do what he did. Liz's outrage was justifiable; unfortunately she would also hurt Sean. (Her decision to let him take the fall for breaking into the high school remains incomprehensible to me. He went to jail, whereas Liz would probably have gotten a stern talking to.) Yes, Michael was wrong not to insist on telling Maria, although Maria's refusal to let him speak implies that perhaps she knew. It just doesn't rise to the same level.
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Posted 01-23-2004 09:35 AM by mesmerized
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Citrus and Vine: [QB]Hey Algieba and everyone!
Liz liked to be in control. Topolsky noted it, too. Liz wanted to be the one in control. LIZ: Okay, the world is this incredibly mysterious place, and science is just this way of figuring it out. With science, there are answers to everything. Facts. When you're conducting an experiment, you're in control of everything. See your not even finished here. She never answer Topolsky about being controlling. What she meant is about why she like Science. That's why she makes plan What's next that Topolsky ask is; You like to make plans And she said you got to have a plan. Liz takes her life seriously. She knows that she has to be prepared for everything that's going to happen to her This is a good quality in a person. A person who likes to take charge of their life instead of being a drifter. And not knowing what she's going to do the next day. This is what I like about her. She's not fickle or lazy. And I think this is the quality that makes her a good match for Max as a Queen Liz liked to be in control. When Max wanted to take a step back from their relationship for a while, Liz lost control of their relationship. When Max came in to talk to Liz about seeing her with Kyle, Liz took umbrage. Instead of recognizing that Max had feelings for her, she lit into him with a lecture about her right to see whoever she wanted. Max wasnít trying to control Liz. On the contrary, Max said it was ok with him, that she saw Kyle. Max understood when he came in that Liz was free to be with whomever she chose. Liz turned the discussion into a control issue, which it hadnít been. Max had come in to talk to Liz, because he had feelings for her, and he wanted to be with her. He helped her work, as they talked. Max wasnít being controlling in the situation. Liz was being controlling. Are you refering this scene in Toyhouse. Max took a stepback because he was scared. Max went to Liz not only because of Kyle. But because he's bothered about Isabel telling their parents aboiut their secret. During that time he does'nt want to be with Liz. He's taking a step back because he wants to find his so called balance. And he ask Liz for advice. And yes Max is controling the way he ordered Isabel about not telling their parents sound so much like an order. Max even order Isabel not to go to college and Liz to stop her quest for Alex killer. There were other times as well that Liz wanted to be in control. Liz went off on her own to talk to Michael about Topolsky having Michaelís records. That alone might have led everyone to consider that Tess might be involved in Alexís death. Max and Tess might never have gotten together, if Liz hadnít been what some might call arrogant, and what others might call self-protective. Liz told Maria about Future Max. She had opportunities to tell Max also. If she had told Max or Max and Tess and Michael, and Isabel, Alex might never have died. Liz and Max might have gotten together, and Tess might have left town, as she did in the first timeline. Or Tess might have continued to stay, even if Liz and Max got back together, since Tess had grown closer to her podmates, including Max now. Tess had found a home with the Valentis. Tess might especially want to stay with everyone, after discovering how important it really was for everyone to work together to survive. How do you know about that. Tess already has her agenda of having Max child and giving them to Kivar. during this time Alex was known to be in sweden when Liz told Maria. If she told Max then nothing will change Max will pursue her and not give his destiny a try. Tess will not change her mind about it she's going to be more insistent on being with Max. She was not budjing about her destiny. As for Kyle she aready manipulated Kyles feelings for her.So he also will not get in the way of her destiny Lizís ìstrong independenceî led in part to Alexís death. Her ìstrong independenceî caused a rift in the cooperative efforts the aliens and humans had shared. Her ìstrong independenceî nearly cost Leanna/ Jennifer Coleman her life, because Liz blamed Jennifer for Alexís death. Lizís ìstrong independenceî nearly cost Max and Isabel their lives as well. Bull****. LIZ STRONG INDEPENDENCE LIVING? Did she kill Alex. Did Liz mindwarp Alex to death after she translated the the damn alien book. IS THIS HOW YOU INTERPRET THE SHOW? Did'nt she stop Max from killing Liz who told Max in the first place about Leanna being involved in Alex case. As for Liz costing Max and Isabel's life that total bul****. SHE SAVE THEM . SHE ****INGLY SAVE THEM FROM GOING TO ANTAR IF YOU HAVE NOT BEEN WATCHING SHE RAN IN THE CAVE AND YELLED AT THEM TO OPEN IT. Being a strong independent person is good if your actions affect no one else. However, all lives touch other lives. Liz failed to share vital information that could have prevented Alexís death or could have led to discovering how Alex died, much sooner. Being a strong independent person is particularly a disadvantage in romance, in being part of a couple, and in being married. Working with someone requires mutual love, respect, and consultation. For Liz to have a good marriage with anyone in the future, she would have needed to put aside some of her ìstrong independence.î A ìno holds barredî approach can be very alienating to people. If you love someone, speaking to them respectfully, in a non-blaming, cooperative, and open manner is likely to achieve the best outcome for all. I know you don't like Liz and you don't appreciate her intelligent and independent but your reasoning for blaming her for everything that happen to the group and especially to Alex is preposterous. To bad I'm bigining to respect your reasoning but this you failed badly. Tess may be criticized for being supportive of Max, but good relationships require mutual support. They also require honesty. Tess wasnít honest with Max and the others about getting the translation done. She wasnít honest with them about causing Alexís death. Liz wasnít honest with Max and the other aliens about the first timeline and about time travel. She withheld vital information. Both Tess and Liz werenít honest at important times. Neither of them told it like it was, until it no longer mattered.
Liz demanded that Max heal Sean, even though she could see that Maxís hands were bound behind him, and that he was helpless to do anything. She knew that Max helped others, but she cared more about Sean, than she did about Max. Liz blamed aliens for Alexís death, but she had a part in Alexís death, too, since she helped to change the timeline. Again are you paying attention to the show show you watched just asking. Why do you think Liz has to take drastic action of having Max seeing her set up with Kyle.As fo Sean she never force herself on Sean Sean was there who entertains her and distract her from her dilema with Max. What would you have her do. Go to a convent?
Taking responsibility for oneís own actions and feelings is important. Some people are able to take responsibility for their own actions and feelings. Sometimes Liz blamed other people for her feelings. What does Liz has to take risponsibility of for loving Max unconditionally and giving up her freedom for him. For Helping the podsquad in their quest for their identity. while at the same time helping them allude the 01-22-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine |
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Posted 01-23-2004 01:59 PM by Citrus and Vine
Hey mesmerized!
quote: Liz didnít love Max unconditionally. In the first timeline, Max had to stay away from Tess, in order for Liz to agree to get back together with Max. In the second timeline, Tess had to leave Earth, before Liz agreed to get back together with Max. In both timelines, Lizís love for Max was conditional. Liz was jailed by Valenti, because Max healed her. If Max hadnít, she would have been dead. It wasnít Maxís or Michaelís or Isabelís fault that Valenti jailed Liz to get some answers. Liz kept their secret from Valenti, because Max had saved her life. Liz was jailed in Utah, because she committed a crime she was willing to commit to help Max find his child. She wanted to do it. Max asked her if she was sure she wanted to do it, just before they entered the store. Liz did what she wanted to do. She wasnít only helping Max. She was doing things she liked to do. She liked switching the diamond. Liz liked taking risks. Liz helped the podsquad in the beginning because Max saved her life, and thatís what she wanted to do. After Liz broke up with Max at the cave, she continued to help them, because helping them benefited Liz and her friends. Trying to find Alexís killer was a worthwhile goal. Everyone would have understood why Liz thought Alex was murdered, if she had told people the truth. But Liz lied by omission by not telling anyone that she was in part responsible for Alexís death. Liz told no oneónot even Mariaóthat Alex had been alive in the first timeline, which she (Liz) helped to change. If Liz had been willing to put aside her self-protectiveness, people could have figured out sooner what happened to Alex. They would have realized that Tess left Roswell in the first timeline, and in the second timeline, she didnít. People would have been more attentive to Tess. As it was, Leanna/Jennifer Coleman was almost killed and Max and Isabel were almost handed over to Kivar. If Michael hadnít left the cave, Max and Isabel would have been handed over to Kivar. You are right, mesmerized, Max told Michael that Liz never screwed up. But we, the audience, know that Liz did mess up. (She also did some things right.) Liz went to Sweden without telling her parents or anyone else. Max knew that was wrong, and he tried to stop her. There werenít any clues in Sweden, so, again, Liz was wrong to want to go to Sweden, especially without telling anyone. Max was in love with Liz, when she lost control of her powers. He desperately wanted to help Liz. Thatís why Max said to Michael that Liz never screwed up. Liz also messed up the times she told Max that he hurt her. Max didnít become intimate with Tess to hurt Liz. He became intimate with Tess, because he loved Tess. Again, Liz and Max hadnít been a couple for a year, when Max and Tess became intimate. Liz felt hurt that Max didnít wait for her to get around to telling him that she wanted to be with him. Liz went to bed with Kyle and played around with Sean. She endangered the podsters lives with her reckless behavior, like breaking into the school, when she could have gotten the same or similar information from Max, who had been given the information from Valenti, by way of Hanson. Valenti knew that Liz was acting dangerously. Thatís why he talked to Max about it. Liz wasnít willing to listen to Valenti, so Valenti thought Max could talk to Liz. But Liz refused to listen to Max either. Liz screwed up by breaking into the school with Sean. Sean lost his freedom. In addition, Sean had to do many hours of Community Service for his part in the break in. Liz got off free. Liz found no useful information from the break-in. She had to turn to Maria for help. Maria was very helpful. She figured out where Alex had actually been, instead of in Sweden. If Liz had been honest from the beginning, she wouldnít have alienated the aliens and the humans. She wouldnít have endangered Jennifer Colemanís life. She wouldnít have jeopardized Max and Isabelís lives. Liz helped the podsters. So did Alex and Maria. All of them benefited from helping the podsters, because with their help and the podsters help and with Courtneyís help, the Skins didnít take over Earth. Courtney died to help Michael. Liz lost some romance time with Max to help save herself and others from the Skins. Liz directly benefited from giving up some romance time with Max. But Liz could have had more time in romance with Max, if she hadnít left Max at the cave, and if she had told Max she would like to get back together with him, after the Skins were killed, or after the Summit, or at the Christmas Eve service, or in Las Vegas, or before the prom, or at the prom, or after the prom, or after Alex was killed. Liz wasnít honest with Max, until it no longer mattered. Max had formed a committed relationship with Tess. Max didnít choose to stay on Earth to protect Liz, even though he could have sent Tess to Antar without him. Ultimately, he did just that, but it was to keep himself alive to help Zan one day that he stayed on Earth. He didnít stay on Earth to be with Liz. Liz didnít love Max enough to be honest with him. She didnít follow her own advice. Here are some things that Liz said. LIZ (to Max): You are who you choose to be. Just like...just like youíre with who you choose to be with. IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/offmenu/tn_offmenu266_jpg.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2395a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2448a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/244ea87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2450a87e0.jpg IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/heart/heart266.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/2a20a87e0.jpg `````` LIZ: Max, you're not making me do anything. We choose our own destinies, remember? Liz chose to believe that Tess was Maxís destiny, even though Max told Liz she was his destiny. Liz abandoned Max at the cave, even though he loved her and wanted to be with her, not Tess. Liz chose a destiny that included Tess in Maxís life. She chose to get Max to fall out of love with her for a while, so her own life could be extended and the lives of others on Earth could be extended as well. Liz benefited directly herself from the choices she made. She did what she wanted to do. Liz did what she wanted to do for the benefit of herself and her friends. In some ways, mesmerized, it sounds like you are saying that Max owed it to Liz not to become involved with anyone else romantically, because Liz helped Max and the other podsters. But Max helped Liz and the other humans. He saved Lizís life. He helped keep the Skins from killing everyone. Yet Liz didnít seem to owe it to Max not to become involved with anyone else romantically. Liz became involved with Sean. Her relationship with Sean didnít go as far as Maxís relationship with Tess did. Still, Liz didnít wait for Max. And she wouldnít let Max into her life romantically, until after Tess left Earth. screencaps by Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momo's Roswell [ 01-23-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-23-2004 02:41 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Citrus, good points. Liz needed to be honest. I disagree with you on some of the details - I think the other characters were quite unreasonable in refusing to contemplate the possibility of murder, even without the additional knowledge Liz was withholding. I thought Liz was right to break into the school (but very, very, very wrong to let Sean take the fall). But on the major thrust of your post I find your argument convincing. Liz should have been honest. She owed that to Alex, to Max, and to herself. The consequences of her deception were disastrous, in my opinion certainly dooming the Earth to alien conquest as well as resulting the death of one of her best friends. As you point out, a number of other extremely negative consequences came very close to happening.
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Posted 01-23-2004 06:20 PM by mesmerized
quote: You can refer my answer to this statement above. I hate to be a broken record. I believe that the skins was not after anyone except the four of them. As for her relationship with Max she never accept Max immedietely. like always he was persistent as for her relationship with Sean. I believed in someways she develop a deep affection for Sean. She never dated him on the rebound on purposed . She was forced to make him fall out of love with her because she was asked by his future self. Liz did'nt obliged Max to stay faithfull to her after her future Max fiasco. But she was shocked of the fast progress of his affair with Tess. off course anyone in her position will. But she resigned to the fact that Max might never be hers ever again. Just look how sad she nods at Max when he told Her . He wish this could be different . She never tried to stop him from living until the moment she pieces out Tes's deception together. And last but not least I never said that Liz should obliged Max not to be with anyone because she help him and the podster. Her relationship with Max is separated from the podster. My question is will you allow the love of your life to be with somebody else?[/b] |
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Posted 01-23-2004 09:18 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
Citrus and Vine- I like how you cared and admired the character of Liz Parker. I like how you continually list all her strengths and weaknesses in each and every one of your posts. I'm glad that Liz was so important to you and one of your favorite characters while watching Roswell. Keep up the great work!! But, I thought your favorite females on Roswell were Tess and Maria. I mean, you constantly praise Tess and Maria and their "loving and honest" relationships with Max and Michael. I didn't think you cared about Liz at all. Go figure!! *shrug* I noticed you mentioned Anti-threads in one of your posts. There also used to be an Anti Max/Liz thread where the Rebels, Candies, and Stargazers blamed Liz because Max/Tess, Michael/Maria, and Alex/Isabel were not the main couples. Liz was blamed for interfering with Destiny because even after Max "woke up" and "slept" with Tess, he still didn't want her. Max was "in love" with Liz and was stuck with Tess because she was pregnant. Liz was blamed for searching for Alex's killer while Maria whined and grieved while she finally had Michael's "loving" attention. Liz was blamed for causing Alex's death because she changed the timeline. Therefore, Maria lost her best friend and Isabel lost her "love." Liz was blamed for everything that happened in Roswell. Boy, I guess the "universe" really did revolve around Liz!! You Go Girl!! I, myself, love the character of Liz Parker. I loved her strengths, weaknesses, imperfections, and flaws. Liz was never perfect in my book and she never had to be. Liz was a caring and sweet person, and that's why Max Evans fell "in love" with her and never stopped "loving" her. Liz was no more "controlling and arrogant" than Max, Tess, Michael, Maria, and Isabel. Liz was a "strong independent" young woman who made her own decisions and choices. Liz could tell Max what she felt with a "no holds barred" attitude and call him on his "mistakes." Liz didn't need to stroke Max's ego and tell him things that he wanted to hear like Tess did. Love is not conditional so Liz never had to cater to Max. Liz was her own person and made her own choices and decisions. Liz did not need Max's approval or consent. Max might have saved Liz's life, but Max did not own Liz's life. No one owned Liz's life but Liz. Liz, Max, Tess, Michael, Maria, and Isabel all made choices that they had to live with. Just because FMax came back to Liz to change the timeline and she did, I don't blame her one bit. Again, FMax gets all the blame from me. If he wanted the aliens to know, then he should have went to them. After all Tess, Isabel, and Michael were his own kind. Does that make Liz any worse than the others? Not in my book. I loved that Liz was a "strong and independent" young woman. I loved that Liz could make decisions and stick to them. I loved that Liz could tell Max how she feels and call him on his "mistakes." Liz should have told Max about FMax but she chose not too. I still would have loved to see what Max and the others would have done with that vital information. Was Max going to know that Tess was a lying manipulator? Was Max going to know that Tess was mindwarping Alex? Was Max going to know that Tess was the enemy? I don't recall FMax knowing that vital information either. I recall when Liz told Maria about FMax at the fountain in MITC, Maria was so non-chalant about it. The only important information that Maria seemed to get out of Liz's conversation was that Liz was still a "virgin." WTF? The fate of the entire planet is hanging in the balance and Maria is worried about Liz's "virginity." Maria should have worried about her own "virginity", since she gave it up to Michael so easily. Michael made Maria dinner on Scooby Doo plates and let her "see him" and she gives up her "virginity" without blinking an eye. How could Maria tell the gang anything about FMax when she was as "shallow" as a door knob? I'm glad FMax didn't go to Maria with saving the planet, because Earth would have been doomed in less than 14 years. At least Earth still has a few more years because of Liz's decision!! In your own version of "love", Max got together with Tess because he "loved" her. You say Tess was honest and supportive of Max. Does that mean when Max and Tess were "screwing under the stars" on a observatory floor, that Tess was whispering "sweet nothings" in Max's ear about her slowly killing and torturing Alex? Is that what you mean about Tess being "honest" and "supportive" of Max? You can list all the things that Liz did to Max and the others all you want. But, the fact still remains the same that Tess was a lying manipulator who used Alex to decode a book for her own "selfish" reasons. It was Tess's fault period for killing Alex, purposely getting pregnant by Max, and then leading Max and family to their deaths on Antar. So, when Tess killed herself, was Liz supposed to feel sad? I definitely didn't see Max, the one you said supposedly "loved" Tess shed one tear? Again, in your own version of "love", Max was going to Antar with Tess because he "loved" her, and was leaving Liz on Earth because he didn't. I would think that if Max "loved" Tess, he would have not given Liz the time of day period after Tess left. Max would have thanked Liz for saving their lives again and moved on with his life. Max would have grieved for Tess and his son. Instead Max ran back to Liz, whom you say he didn't stay on Earth for and wanted to be with her. I don't care how many days, weeks, or months that happened in between, Max wanted Liz because he was "in love" with her and she was "in love" with him period. Again, your turning Max and Liz into robots with on and off switches to adjust their feelings is just hilarious. Liz could have slept with Kyle, kissed and dated Sean all she wanted too. That never changed the fact that she was "in love" with Max. Max had "loveless sex" on a observatory floor with Tess and even after he "woke up", he still didn't want her. Max was stuck with Tess because she trapped him with a pregnancy. But, I guess that's what your own version of "love" entails. Couples have disagreements and arguments all the time. Couples break up all the time. Max and Liz were not a couple for a while, but that didn't stop them from wanting to be in each other's lives. Max and Liz were "in love" with each other and never stopped being "in love" with each other. On the other hand, I never saw Michael and Maria's relationship lasting at all. Michael and Maria had an abusive, dysfunctional, juvenile relationship. Maria was even physically violent with Michael in TEOTW. Michael was at Courtney's apartment kissing her while looking at her certain body parts, even with the extenuating circumstances. Maria shows up like it's her business that Michael was with Courtney. Michael broke up with Maria since Destiny, so Michael was free to see whomever he wanted. Maria not only whines and bitches, she then smacks Michael upside the head. Then she cries to Alex, like it's Michael's fault that he was "cheating on her." Alex then goes to Michael's apartment and punches Michael in the face. Michael and Maria were not a couple when Michael was with Courtney, so Maria had no right to be angry and upset. Maria had no right blaming Courtney either because she was interested in Michael. No one told Maria to drag Liz and Alex to a psychic in TEOTW and brag about her "having Michael Guerin. He's hers." Evidently, Michael didn't feel the same way whether he was using Courtney for information or not. That was just another example where Maria was showing her "annoying" and "controlling" self. Like Courtney told Maria in Surprise, "you sew your name into the back of his jeans?" referring to Michael. Boy, I liked Courtney and I was sorry she died!! That's why after everything that Max and Liz went through, their love was "stronger" than ever before. Max's words to Liz in Graduation tells me all I need to know about Liz Parker and it was always the truth. Max's "you're pure, you're true, and you're real" describes his "true love" Liz perfectly!! [ 01-23-2004: Message edited ~*Sonia E.*~ ] |
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Posted 01-23-2004 11:17 PM by mesmerized
Sonia as usual you have the better post between us. I guess my english vocabulary is limited to my temper. Just look how my risponse interject with Citrus's message. Yeah I know that being Liz Parker was not an easy job. But hey decisions might not be perfect. How could it be. In her position. There's no easy way to do what she has to do. But in order for her to make things happen she has got to do the make a choice that everyone may not approved. Somebody has got to be the mature one between him and Max IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/2/departure/depart225.jpg [B]TELL ME SOMETHING. iS THAT lIZ HURTING ALEX? IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/2/departure/depart229.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.co.uk/roswell/philosophy/63/2/departure/depart230.jpg IS THAT LIZ YOU SEE IN THE PICTURE KILLING ALEX. WHY DOES EVERYONE BLAME LIZ FOR TESS'S CRIME. What is a logical explanation they can really attached Liz's not telling Max about future Max. to Tess killing Alex. For all we know Tess might have betrayed them to Kivar on the last timeline too. Because of what Tess said to Max in the pod chamber. THEY ARE NOT MY ENEMIES MAX. And they never where whatever timeline they belong. a traitor will always be a traitor. If they want anyone to blame Tess's connection to the group why don't they blame Isabel |
Posted 01-24-2004 12:37 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: We know that Tess knew the location of the Granlith, but she did not betray the Granilith's location, in either timeline. We know that Future Liz and Future Max both believed that Tess was vital to Earth's survival. And they were right about that. Tess joined her power to Max's power to hold off the Skins. Courtney destroyed the husks. Tess helped to save Liz's life, as well as Max's and her own life in Copper Summit. Without Tess' help, Earth would have been overrun by the Skins. Without Tess' fireball, Nicholas would have gotten the location of the Granilith from Max. The Skins would have killed the podsters, if not for Tess.
quote: Of course, we are all free to think what we like. FUTURE LIZ: Max, if you don't do this, we're gonna die. Everyone will. Max, you have to do this. You have to try it.
IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/10e9a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/10eba87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/10eda87e0.jpg IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/endwld/endwrld055.jpg Thatís the reason why Future Liz insisted that Future Max go back in time. Future Liz wanted all humans, including herself, as well as the podsters to live longer than 14 years in a war-torn world.
quote: I said that both Tess and Liz werenít honest. That created problems for both of them. I love all of the characters. Like you, I love Courtney, too. She destroyed the husks, killed herself rather than let Nicholas get the location of the Granilith, and she loved Michael! IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1f08a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1fd0a87e0.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/1fd2a87e0.jpg I love the scene in which Maria dumps vitamins into the tub to nourish Courtneyís husk! Some characters I love to hate, like Clayton, who killed his wife and tried to kill Liz. Some characters I love because the characters have such depth, warmth, and complexity. Like you, I disapprove of Maria hitting Michael and Alex punching Michael. I also disapprove of Liz using her powers to throw Tess across the room twice, and telling Tess twice that she would kill her. Liz had a part in Alexís death, too. Liz helped to change the timeline. Tess didnít want Alex to die. She didnít know that it could happen. Everything happened very quickly. Alex died unexpectedly, as Tess attempted to mindwarp him again, as she had before. Liz, on the other hand, wanted to kill Tess. If Tess had died when Liz used her powers against Tess, then Liz would have intentionally killed Tess. Liz didnít kill Tess herself, but she also didnít prevent Tessí death. And Liz was happy that Tess died. Michael and Isabel, in contrast, were upset over Pierce's death and Whitaker's death, even though Pierce and Whitaker were people who wanted to kill them.
I donít know if Michael and Maria would marry in the future. Michael returned to Roswell, because of love. He helped to save everyone. Maria left Roswell with Michael and their friends. Maria was abandoned by her father, when she was young. Girls who are abandoned by their fathers frequently become sexually active at a young age. Maria became intimate with Michael at about the same age that Liz became intimate with Max in the first timeline. Neither of them had benefit of marriage. So, I think if we are to chastise Maria for having sex with Michael, then, in fairness, we should also chastise Liz for becoming intimate with Max in the first timeline. screencaps from Momo's Roswell and Roswell Screen Grab Galleries [ 01-24-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-24-2004 06:38 PM by mesmerized
Citrus of Vine said We know that Tess knew the location of the Granlith, but she did not betray the Granilith's location, in either timeline. We know that Future Liz and Future Max both believed that Tess was vital to Earth's survival. And they were right about that. Yeah she knows the location. But she has Alex translated the book cause she does'nt know how it works. She does'nt know the purpose of the granilith is .How can she give it to Kivar or the skin when she don't know the purpose until Alex translated the book.that also has the instruction on the granilth. Citrus of Vine said That's a laugh cause I don't think Tess lend more of her power to Max because Max is still struggling to hold his power against the skin.As for the powerball did she get rid of the skin for good I guess not Nicolas is still alive and they are in the summit. The skins are also part of the baggage that Tess drag with her when she get to the podsquad. And besides doy you remember what she said; from mesmerized: I believe that the skins was not after anyone except the four of them. Citrus of Vine said It's not a matter of opinion or what you choose to believe or not . The skin has been cohabitating with the human for a long time now. And as far as the story goes. They have'nt harm the human because there's no news of serial murder or mass murder of humans near Cooper Smith or around that area considering the fact that that's a skin strong hold. And beside the atmospere of earth for them is like being in the moon for us human. They can't survived with their skin for a long time they have to harvest new skin that's like a moon suit for us human when we go to the moon. That's why Nicholas loonie Rath and the rest of the skin is after the granilth they want to get off this planet badly. As for the cause of the End of the world. Kivar was after the granilth and the podster badly. that they have to kill and destroy anyone who get's in the way. Max, Michael and Isabel has no way how to defend Sonia E., here is what I said: quote:Tess wasnít honest with Max and the others about getting the translation done. She wasnít honest with them about causing Alexís death. Liz wasnít honest with Max and the other aliens about the first timeline and about time travel. She withheld vital information. Both Tess and Liz werenít honest at important times. Neither of them told it like it was, until it no longer mattered. Citrus of Vine said Don't compare Liz's misleading statement to Tess's As for Tess she lied to save herself. She even use her own child to save her hide from Max. Telling Max that the baby can't survived earth atmosphere. And lied again that killing her would also kill the child. She used Alex and her own child to go home to Antar and give . They could have survived that timeline if it was Courtney not Tess who stayed behind she is loyal to Michael and she provided a more legible information |
Posted 01-25-2004 12:46 AM by Citrus and Vine
quote: The Skins were Tessí enemies. Whitaker tortured and would have killed Tess to get the location of the Ganilith. The Skins tried to kill Max and Tess in Copper Summit. They also planned to kill Liz. Tess used her powers to help Max hold off the Skins, until Courtney was able to destroy the husks. Tess kept Nicholas from getting the location from Max. Tess saved the podstersí lives from the Skins. Itís true that Nicholas survived Tessí fireball. However, he wasnít strong enough to go up against Tess again to get the location of the Granilth, which he desperately needed, since his husk had been destroyed. Nicholas never approached any of the podsters, after the Summit, even though he still needed the Granilith. Tess didnít tell Nicholas or Lonnie and Rath or anyone else where the Granilith was. Tess didnít betray the location of the Granilith in either timeline, even though she knew where it was. Tess believed that Kivar wasnít her enemy, but the Skins, who supposedly worked for Kivar, were Tessí (and the other podsters') enemies. Kivar betrayed Tess, when she returned to Antar. He wanted to kill Zan. Itís likely that Nasedo raised Tess to believe that she had been in love with Kivar, in her previous life, and that she (not Vilandra) betrayed everyone. Thatís why Tess believed that Kivar and those currently in power on Antar werenít her enemies. Nasedo was working for Kivar, and he led Tess to believe that Kivar and those with him on Antar werenít her enemies. ``````````````````````````````````````````````````
quote: Antarians were on Earth, before the podsters were sent to Earth. The podsters were sent to Earth, because enemies of the Royal Antarians and their followers had gone to Earth. The podsters were sent to take care of the enemies there, and then return to Antar to free Antar. The Skins were enemies of the Royal Antarians. They were on Earth, before Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess arrived. Nicholas, who also became a Skin, arrived on Earth after the podsters. The Skins, like Whitaker, who was a Congresswoman, evidently infiltrated positions of importance on Earth. Thatís how the Skins were able to overrun Earth in the first timeline. The Skins were on Earth to take over Earth, before the podsters were sent to Earth. In the first timeline, the Skins succeeded in taking over Earth. They did it, because they wanted Earth, not because they wanted the Granilith or the podsters. They would have been happy to get the podsters. However, they were on Earth, before the pods were sent to Earth. Their mission was to take over Earth. Kivar wanted the podsters to have children, so he could control the podsters and get Royal heirs from them. Kivar needed to improve his status on Antar. After the Skins died and Zan turned out to be human, Kivar had to come to Earth himself to get Isabel. Kivar had the Granilith then, because Tess had gone back to Antar in it. However, having the Granilith didn't improve things for Kivar. He needed Isabel. Kivar didnít try to capture Max, because he knew that Max wouldnít have more children with Tess. Kivar had to go to Earth himself, so he could get Isabel back to produce a Royal heir. Kivar needed a Royal heir to validate his rule on Antar.
mesmerized, I havenít called Liz selfish. I have called Liz self-protective at times. I think Liz at some points would have been willing to die for Max. At other points in the second timeline, though, Liz would not have been willing to die for Max. Liz lied by omission about important matters. She knew why she believed Alex had been killed by aliens, but she told no one that she knew Alex had been alive longer in the first timeline. If Liz had worked with others from the beginning, the truth could have been learned sooner. Max and Tess might not have become intimate. Instead, Liz refused to share what she knew, and she also refused to look at the information others had gathered. Liz was confrontational and blaming in her attitude towards Max. Liz turned her back on Max, when he tried to work with her. She insisted that Max accept her theory of Alexís death, without telling Max or anyone the logic behind her reasoning. Even if Liz hadnít wanted to tell Max about Future Max and changing the timeline, she could have been open to listening to other points of view. Working together cooperatively can produce better results faster. People dealing with stress and anger sometimes handle things badly. Liz handled Alexís death badly. She turned on her friends. She was angry and antagonistic. Tess handled the revelation that Max kissed Liz badly. She turned on Max. She was angry and antagonistic. She was pregnant, which further exacerbated things. (Hormones during pregnancy frequently cause women to behave in ways they would not otherwise behave.) Tess decided to hand Max over to Kivar, because she saw a flash of Max kissing Liz. Tess acted out of anger, as did Liz. Liz was willing to give up her friendship with Max, because she was so angry with him. Tess was willing to betray Max to Kivar, because she was so angry with Max. Liz had other problems with anger, as well. She continued to blame Max and Tess for being intimate together and having a child. Liz wasnít able to get over it, for almost a year. People who are resilient are able to let go of things they cannot control and move on. Eventually, Liz was finally able to move past her anger over the fact that Max and Tess had been intimate and had a child together. Liz was happy to accept Maxís marriage proposal, and later they married. IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/millennium/smiles/224/42a5a87e0.jpg screencaps from Momoís Roswell and Roswell Screen Grab Galleries [ 01-25-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-25-2004 03:54 AM by mesmerized
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Citrus and Vine: [QB] Antarians were on Earth, before the podsters were sent to Earth. The podsters were sent to Earth, because enemies of the Royal Antarians and their followers had gone to Earth. The podsters were sent to take care of the enemies there, and then return to Antar to free Antar. The Skins were enemies of the Royal Antarians. They were on Earth, before Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess arrived. Nicholas, who also became a Skin, arrived on Earth after the podsters. The Skins, like Whitaker, who was a Congresswoman, evidently infiltrated positions of importance on Earth. Thatís how the Skins were able to overrun Earth in the first timeline. The Skins were on Earth to take over Earth, before the podsters were sent to Earth. In the first timeline, the Skins succeeded in taking over Earth. They did it, because they wanted Earth, not because they wanted the Granilith or the podsters. They would have been happy to get the podsters. However, they were on Earth, before the pods were sent to Earth. Their mission was to take over Earth. They want earth. Why do you say that. The earth is not a good environment for their real physical self. I mean do the math. Why will you conquer a place that's not compatible with their true self that's why they always need to harvest new skin all the time. Even Nicholas hate this planet. I don't know why they are in this planet but if what you say is true. They would have attack and tried to take over before the podster hatched from their pods. Why will they waste their time from waiting all this years to attack earth. If that's the case then.
Though Interuptus was not my favorite episode. I know the reason why Kivar went to take Isabel. He was jealous of her human fiance. I don't know what the purpose of that damn Granilth is for Kivar. But I think that besides being a space ship the Granilith can be moderate to be like a time machine. And someone knowing how to control a time machine can control his/ or her destiny human or alien alike. Kivar did'nt need the granilith to be a transportation he has other source namely the WORMHOLE. And another thing Kivar went to Isabel using a human body. Now my question again is. How could this alien enemies ever want to invade earth since this planet is hostile to their real body. that they have to possess a human body in order for them to survive this planet. And I know that they can't do that for long just look at Larek possesing Brody's body Kivar didnít try to capture Max, because he knew that Max wouldnít have more children with Tess. Kivar had to go to Earth himself, so he could get Isabel back to produce a Royal heir. Kivar needed a royal heir to validate his rule on Antar. Where in the episode did Kivar ever want Isabel because he wants to sire a ligetimate Royal heir. mesmerized, I havenít called Liz selfish. I have called Liz self-protective at times. I think Liz at some points would have been willing to die for Max. At other points in the second timeline, though, Liz would not have been willing to die for Max. Liz is still willing to die for him other wise why do you think she agrees with the heist in Utah. Anything can go wrong at that moment. Liz's life was in greater danger especially while Max is down that store's basement looking at the space ship . The store keeper has a gun to. and the guy that Cal Langley hired could have entered the store and Shoot Liz. or the cops could have shoot Liz since he and Max are like doing some Bonnie and Clyde stunt. And if Liz is not willing to die for Max in this timeline why will she jump with him from the school window in Vermont. during their Max/ Clayton encounter. AT THAT MOMENT IT CLEARLY SHOWS THAT LIZ IS WILLING TO DIE FOR HIM OR DIE WITH HIM.. Liz never stop loving Max after everything he did to her. Liz lied by omission about important matters. She knew why she believed Alex had been killed by aliens, but she told no one that she knew Alex had been alive longer in the first timeline. She did'nt know that Alex was killed by an alien.
I never recall any instant that Liz has refuse to work with anyone to find the real cause of Alex death. I believe she went to Valenti and show him what she found in the car wreckage. Did Valenti tries to hear what she founds. I think not. instead he opted to tell her that Alex death is looking more and more like a suicide. He started to be convince about the change Alex attitude as a sign of depression. But we all know that was the after effect of Tess's mindwarp. Then she went to Max Max at first is trying to apease her. And she also went to Maria but Maria was burdened with her grief that she refused to listened to what Liz is showing her. Liz has nothing to turn too. She tries to share what she found but instead she was meet with the hostility on them. What do you think she has to do if you are in her situation. SHE TRIES TO SHARE SHARE THEM WHAT SHE FOUND BUT THEY DID NOT LISTEN TO THEM. And about Max he never believe her that's why he tries to stop her from investigating it he even grab her roghly in the hallway. what did he say.
Yes Liz was stressed out on two thing dealing with Alex death and having the risponsibility to find Alex killer ALONE. BECAUSE THE FACT IS NOBODY BELIEVES HER THAT ALEX DEATH WAS NOT AN ACCIDENT.Except for Isabel whose willing to give her the benifit of her doubt. But she was thwarted by Max too. Cause Max is sure that Liz was wrong. Even Michael is starting to come around too. What did he told Max: I just think that our leader should not choose to believed what he wants to believed instead of what really is the fact that happens. Yes If I where Liz I will without a doubt do what she did too. Tess handled the revelation that Max kissed Liz badly. She turned on Max. She was angry and antagonistic. She was pregnant, which further exacerbated things. (Hormones during pregnancy frequently cause women to behave in ways they would not otherwise behave.) Tess decided to hand Max over to Kivar, because she saw a flash of Max kissing Liz. Tess acted out of anger, as did Liz. Liz was willing to give up her friendship with Max, because she was so angry with him. Tess was willing to betray Max to Kivar, because she was so angry with Max. I beg to differ again because it was Max who threatened Liz with the friendship . She was not willing to give it up. She has no choice Max is hindering her mission to find out about Alex death because she's scared that someone's going to die again. Liz had other problems with anger, as well. She continued to blame Max and Tess for being intimate together and having a child. Liz wasnít able to get over it, for almost a year. People who are resilient are able to let go of things they cannot control and move on. Eventually, Liz was finally able to move past her anger over the fact that Max and Tess had been intimate and had a child together. Liz was happy to accept Maxís marriage proposal, and later they married. [b] Sorry but it was not easy for her to accept What happen to Max and Tess. She kept it inside flaming up her latent alien power that Max essence left her body due to him healing her. |
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Posted 01-25-2004 08:01 AM by Abducted Bookworm
I think we have to re-evaluate certain things in the context of "Departure." How many Skins can we really assume Tess killed? Was she really their enemy? Was she really kidnapped by Whitaker, or was that the start of the psychological warfare directed against Isabel? I don't think that we can simply assume that Tess hung around for a while, saved the world, then became evil. Either she was working with Kivar, or she wasn't. In the context of a discussion of "Departure" we have to look at the possibility that most of what we thought about the rest of the season was false, particularly given Tess' unique abilities. In a discussion of "Wipe Out" on its own we could choose to ignore "Departure." As for the Granolith... either it is how Kivar became able to create worm holes, or he's using it for something else. The idea that Tess hung around for a couple months, while continuing with plans of betrayal, and saved the planet in that time... it just seems fundamentally implausible. If the Skins are that easy to kill, somebody else could have done it. If there are so few of them, they probably didn't matter. Tess didn't destroy the husks. In the other timeline, the Skins still didn't capture the Granolith. So the evidence for the short-term destruction of the Skins in the new timeline is scant. In the long term, their chances for survival are better! Kivar may be able to keep them alive from a distance with the Granolith. If not, nothing has changed - they will all die before an invasion can take place. The world wasn't saved by what Liz, or Tess, or anyone did. EOTW did not change anything, except to bring about Alex's early death, and drive a wedge between Max and Liz. The smart Liz of Season 1 would have figured this out. While even that Liz had problems with honesty, I think she would have ultimately made the right decision. One of my greatest regrets regarding Season 2 is that I could no longer admire Liz.
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Posted 01-25-2004 11:18 AM by jjac
You know, I have been following the posts back and forth on this thread and really find some of the arguments interesting. It is evident that some support one character and others support another. It is also evident that it is very easy to pull out lines and pictures to support one's point of view. However, in order to really judge a situation you have to look at it in it's entirety and then support your agruments. Take EOTW. You cousld argyue that Liz was one of the most selfish, hurtful characters on earth for what she did to Max. But, when you look at the entire situation, another picture comes into view. In all of the arguments you have to ask yourself just why did Liz lie and hurt Max the way that she did. Did she do it just to make herself feel better, for selfish reasons? Future Max and Future Liz TOGETHER made the decision that Max had to go back in the past and stop the two of them from cementing their relationship in order to save the world from ending in 14 years. Liz wanted no part of it. She watnted Max to go back to his younger self or to the others for help, but he insisted that it had to be her because she was the only one that he trusted. We are talking about a Max that has lived fourteen years past what the current group has endured and he knows that the only one that can be trusted to act is Liz, not Tess who was instrumental to the future (they thought), but Liz. Still, she hesitates. What was the one thing that gave her the resolve to go along with the plan? It was the fact that Future Max told her that Isabel had died two weeks earlier and that Michael had just died in his arms! Liz then went down to the Crashdown and saw Michael and Isabel interacting. That was the thing that pushed her to do what she did not want to do. I really fail to see the "selfishness" in her actions. Usually when I think of someone being selfish I think of someone acting in their own regard for their own personal reasons with no regard to how their behavior would affect everyone else. I would not qualify her actions as selfish in any form of the word. On the contrary, she hurt [B}herself[/B] immeasurably by her actions. One of the hardest things I had to endure during season 2 was seeing the pain Liz was in episode after episode while waiting for the writers to decide that NOW was the time that she would reveal TEOTW to the others. Sadly the "revelation" was never to be shown. This, in my estimations was one of the greatest erros by the writers and producers of this show. You cannot base an entire season on a premise and show no resolution to that premise without destroying part of the foundation of the show. In Liz's quest for Ales's killer, at that point noone would even entertain the idea that Alex did not kill himself except Liz. She knew that her best friend would never take his own life and was appaled at the ease with which everyone was willing to accept that idea. Both Maria and Liz were greiving, but in different ways. Maria chose to work on something that would honor Alex, but Liz was shown greiving alone in the Crashdown at the end of the episode. Her pain was clearly visible but she chose to direct it in her search for his killer. She was focused on that one task and the only people that were supporting her were Kyle and Sean. Yes, she used Sean in the break in at the school, but both of them were aware of the consequences. He could have refused to help her, but he decided to go along with her fully aware of the consequences if he got caught. She did not use subterfuge to get him to do what she wanted. Granted it was not the smartest decision on her part, but her focus was solely on finding Alex's killer and nothing else. I guess that one can pull quotes galore to support one's view about what one "thinks" was the reasoning behind certain characters' behavior, but what we come down to is the way that the show progressed and what was given to us in the end. Max and Liz's love, through all of the trials and tribualtions came through in the end. All of the hurts and deceptions in ALL of the seasons was not enough to keep them apart period. |
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Posted 01-25-2004 11:34 AM by Citrus and Vine
Hey mesmerized and jjac and Abducted Bookworm and everyone!
quote: Antarians came to Earth, before the pods were sent to Earth. Max and Isabelís mother said in the pre-recorded message, ìOur enemies have come to Earth.î The Royal Four were sent to Earth on a mission to eliminate the enemies who had come to Earth. The shapeshifters didnít need husks to survive on Earth. Perhaps they were the people who grew the husks that made it possible for some extraterrestrials to live on Earth. Max and Isabelís mom considered Earthlings to be Antarian subjects. The Skins wanted to take over Earth. Thatís why they overran Earth and killed humans. They didnít take over Earth before Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were born, because they werenít yet in a position to do so. They needed to be in positions of power, before they made their move. Whitaker, for example, was a Congresswoman. As such, she had power. (Whitaker wanted to keep the Special Unit going, because she was tried of living on Earth in a husk. She needed the Granilith, so she could go back to Antar. She stopped working with the other Skins to take over Earth. She wanted to go back to Antar.) Nicholas and the other Skins tried to kill Max and Tess, when they found out who they were. They didnít care about keeping Max or Tess alive or handing them over to Kivar. After the husks were destroyed, then the Skins went to Roswell to find the podsters. The Skins needed the Granilith, so they could go back to Antar, where the atmosphere would allow them to live. After Tess destroyed the Skins at the high school, Nicholas went to the dupes in New York to get their help. Nicholas didnít go up against Tess or any of the other podsters himself again, because Tess was too powerful. Nicholas still needed the Granilith, so he tried another approach. Nicholas learned about the Summit from Lonnie and Rath (and maybe Ava). He showed up at the Summit, pretending to represent Kivar. Nicholas only wanted the Granilith. When he didnít get it at the Summit, he had Lonnie try to kill Max. IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/maxcity/tn_maxcty255_jpg.jpg IMAGE: members.fortunecity.co.uk/orion27/2/maxcity/tn_maxcty259_jpg.jpg IMAGE: www.fortunecity.com/lavendar/scarface/458/173fa87e0.jpg Nicholas didnít care about sending the Royal Four to Kivar. He didnít make sending Isabel to Antar part of the deal at the Summit. (We know that Kivar wanted Isabel and not Lonnie, because Kivar came to Earth personally to get Isabel. He needed Isabel to produce a Royal heir, so he could legitimatize his rule on Antar.) The Skins lived on Earth, before the pods were sent to Earth. The pods were sent to Earth on a mission to conquer the enemies who had come to Earth. In the first timeline, the Skins overran Earth, because Tess wasnít around to use her powers with Max, Michael, and Isabel. In the second timeline, Tess, along with the others, helped to save Earth. ````````````````````````````````
quote: Kivar wasnít jealous of Jesse. If Kivar had been jealous of Jesse, he would have killed Jesse to get rid of him. Kivar needed Isabel. Kivar didnít need the Granilith. The Granilith was meaningful to the other members of the Summit, but the Granilith didnít help Kivar. He had to go to Earth himself, when Tess and Maxís baby turned out to be human. Kivar couldnít use a human baby. Humans couldnít carry the Seal of Antar. Max lost the Seal, when he transferred into Claytonís body. The Seal could not go to humans. It could only go to someone with some Antarian blood. After Claytonís body grew Antarian characteristics, Max was able to take back the Seal from Michael. mesmerized, you wonder why anyone who couldnít live on Earth without a husk or occupying someone elseís body would want Earth. The answer is that Earth has resources, which extraterrestrials could use to their benefit. It was worth it to the Skins to take over Earth, because there were things on Earth the Skins wanted. Possibly once they controlled Earth, they could change the atmosphere, so it would no longer harm them, or they could build domed environments, where they could live without husks. ```````````````````````````````
quote: Tess landed on Earth after Kivar arrived on Earth, because her spaceship traveled more slowly than Kivarís new mode of transit. Kivar sent Isabel romantic dreams, because he knew from Tess that Isabel didnít know what really happened on Antar. He wanted to trick Isabel into going with him to Antar. Isabel (as Vilandra) had once loved Kivar. Kivar didnít love Isabel (or Vilandra). Kivar killed Vilandra. After Vilandra died, Kivar spread the lie that Vilandra had betrayed everyone. Thatís why Whitaker and Nicholas believed that Isabel/Vilandra had betrayed everyone, even though she hadnít. Vilandra thought that Kivar was coming in peace. Kivar betrayed Vilandraís love for him. He didnít love or even lust after Vilandra. Kivar killed Vilandra. Itís true that no one says in the episode Interruptus that Kivar wants Isabel to produce a Royal heir. However, the audience learns that Kivar doesnít love Isabel. He lies about Isabel, saying that she betrayed everyone. So that leaves the audience to figure out why Kivar wanted Isabel. We know that Kivar wanted the Royal Four to produce children. Thatís why there were rough drawings of Isabel and Tess pregnant in the so-called Destiny Book that Tess handed Michael. Kivar wanted Royal heirs. Tess was a royal, but she wasnít a lineal Royal. She had to produce a child (with Antarian blood) with Max to be of any use to Kivar. Kivar didnít mate with Tess or have some other Antarian mate with Tess, because children from Tess (without Max) wouldnít be lineal Royal heirs. When Tessí child failed to be of use to Kivar, he went to Earth to get Isabel. He sent her dreams, because Isabel/Vilandra had once loved Kivar. Isabel didnít love Kivar, despite the dreams. She didnít want to go with Kivar. She felt that Kivar was doing something to her. Jesse saved Isabel from Kivar. ``````````````````````````` mesmerized, you made the point that Liz was willing to die for Max. I said that in the second timeline, there were times when Lizís wouldnít have died for Max. I doubt that Liz would have died for Max, after she saw Max kiss Tess tenderly and lingeringly. I doubt that Liz would have died for Max when Max told Liz Tess was pregnant and he was leaving Earth. Liz left Max and Roswell, after she and Max had gotten back together. Liz also planned to leave Roswell with or without Max to go to college. So Liz didnít always want to be with Max or die for him. Liz didnít jump with Clayton/Max from the dorm window. Clayton grabbed Liz, and Max was powerless to stop Clayton. Clayton forced Liz out of the window with him to kill her. Liz wasnít trying to die with Max. She was trying to live. She loved Max, and didnít want to kill Clayton, because then Max would be killed, too. She tried to kill Clayton/Max, because thatís what Max wanted her to do. Max wanted Liz to live. Liz wanted Max to live. Again, Liz wasnít trying to die for Max, when Clayton tried to kill her and forced her out of the window with him.
quote: Thatís true. Nasedo raised Tess to betray Max, Michael, and Isabel. He didnít want Tess to fall in love with humans, so he told her that her human side didnít matter. (Max, Michael, and Isabel, in contrast, all fell in love with humans.) Nasedo kept Tess moving from place to place, so she wouldnít form bonds with humans. Nasedo was a shapeshifter. No one knew about Ed Harding or Tess. Nasedo lied to Tess about the Special Unit being after her all those years. Nasedo wanted Tess to want to return to Antar, where she could be safe. After Nasedo was killed, Tess moved in with the Valentis. She grew to love them. She was very sad to leave Jim Valenti. (The audience sees Tessí face when she hugs Valenti for the last time. Her face is emotionally sad. No one else sees her face. She isnít playacting. Her emotions are real.) Tess had real love and affection for both Jim Valenti and Kyle. Tess didnít kill Kyle, even though her mindwarps of him kept failing. She didnít want Kyle to die, and she didnít want Jim to be without his son. Tess had human emotions. She loved Max. She wanted him to love her the way she loved him. She didnít show that she was upset that Max sat with Liz at the outdoor Christmas Eve celebration. She didnít show that she was upset that Max danced with Liz in Las Vegas. She didnít show that she was upset that Max was going to the prom with Liz. Tess did show that she was upset that Max cared about Liz, when Brody/Larek held them in the UFO Center. She showed that she was very upset that Max didnít remember her, and that Max told Brody that he wasnít in love with Tess and never had been in love with Tess. Later, though, Max remembered Tess and went to her late at night to her room to tell her that he remembered her. He tenderly brushed aside her tears. ````````````````````````` quote: In Alexís bedroom, Max tried to show Liz the information that the police had gathered on Alexís death. The police had reports of Alexís behavior in school and in front of the Thai food delivery guy and information from the truck driver involved in the accident. All that information, which Liz refused to look at, was worth investigating. Those reports could pinpoint exactly when Alexís behavior began changing. The information could have led to finding out how Alex died, sooner than the way Liz found out. In school, Max tried to talk to Liz. He told her he was willing to consider that Alex had been killed by an alien, if Liz was willing to consider that Alex committed suicide. Max wanted to work things out with Liz. He was willing to keep an open mind about Alexís death, but Liz wasnít. Liz didnít want to work with Max or anyone else, unless they did things exactly her way. Liz wanted to be in control, because she had lost control of things, when Alex died. Liz was angry with Max and didnít want to work with him, because she had seen Max kissing Tess at the prom. Any time people want to find out the truth about things, they need to keep an open mind. They must consider all the possibilities. Max was willing to consider that Alex was killed by an alien. He was also willing to consider that Alex had committed suicide. Liz wasnít willing to look at all the facts. She only wanted everyone to do things her way. She was unwilling to recognize that Maria and the others needed time to grieve for Alex. Liz didnít grieve with the others. She kept her grief to herself. To the others, Liz was behaving irrationally. Liz jeopardized the podsters' safety in her quest of Alexís killer. It would have done the podsters no good to know that Alex was killed by an alien, if the podsters were imprisoned for being aliens themselves. Liz didnít care about Maxís safety. She didnít care about Michael or Isabelís safety. She only wanted to find a killer, so she could pin Alexís death on someone other than herself. If Alexís death had been an accident or a suicide, then Liz would have felt even more responsible for Alexís death, since she helped to change the timeline. If Alex were killed by an alien, though, then Liz would feel less at fault for Alexís death. Thatís why it was so important to Liz to blame an alien for Alexís death, rather than let herself evaluate the information that pointed to Alexís death being a possible suicide. Liz wanted someone to blame for Alexís death. She didnít want to take responsibility for her part in Alexís death, when she helped to change the timeline. ````````````````````````````` Tess asked Max if he was sure he wanted to go to Antar, because she loved him. She didnít need Max to go with her. She was pregnant with Maxís child. She could go to Antar herself. Tess wanted to go to Antar and be a royal, more than she wanted to stay on Earth with Max. (Similarly, Liz was more interested in going away to college than she was in staying with Max or having Max come with her to college.) Tess changed her mind at the last minute about telling Max to stay behind on Earth, because Tess saw a flash of Max and Liz kissing. That was too much for Tess to bear. She fell out of love with Max instantly. She decided she would hand Max over to Kivar. She wanted to hurt Max as much as he had (unintentionally) hurt her. If Tess had only planned all along to hand Max over to Kivar, she wouldnít have cared whether or not Max wanted to go. She wouldnít have asked Max the question. Things were ready for them to leave, and Max was leaving with her. Tess asked Max the question, because she loved him and she was willing for him to stay behind. ``````````````````````` I think mesmerized that you and Sonia E. are right in thinking that Liz didnít love Max unconditionally, after Max and Tess were intimate and had a child together. Liz seemed to be less in love with Max than he was with her. Some people donít want to be with people who have priorities in their lives that might interfere with their love lives. Max had responsibilities that didnít involve Liz, unless she wanted them to. Max had a child. Before that, Max had been married to Tess. He had been sent to Earth on a mission. He had responsibilities to himself, as former King of Antar. Max had responsibilities to his mother and those who sent him. Max had the responsibility to see that Tess, Michael, and Isabel survived on Earth. Itís was what Max needed to do and what he wanted to do. Max had the responsibility to conquer the enemies who had come to Earth. Itís what his mother and those who sent Max wanted him to do. Itís probably what Zan would have wanted to do. Max neglected that responsibility when he chose to be with Liz and keep Tess out of his life, so Liz would accept him. Max didnít include Tess in his life, because he knew how upset Liz was whenever Tess was around.
Max gave up his primary responsibility to be with Liz. As a result, Earth was overrun by the Skins. Many battles were fought. Everyone was going to die, in fourteen years time. Liz helped to change things, but she still didnít want Tess to be in Maxís life, not even in a working capacity. Liz didnít get back with Max, until after Tess left Earth. Some people are not well suited to dealing with their boyfriendís/girlfriendís or husbandís/ wifeís former spouse and children. Liz may have been such a person. Liz may have been a person who only wanted to be involved with someone who never needed to communicate with his former spouse about their child. Even after Tess was killed and Zan was adopted, Liz still wasnít committed to Max, until after he proposed to her and she accepted. Liz might have difficulty in the future, if Max one day went to Antar to free the people there. She might not be willing to go with Max or let him go there on his own. Lizís future, like other peopleís futures, held the unknown. With her new powers of precognition, perhaps Liz felt more confident about the future. She was definitely happy on her wedding day. From the journal she sent her father, Liz seemed content and happy with the life she now lived with her husband and friends. screencaps from Roswell Screen Grab Galleries and Momo's Roswell [ 01-25-2004: Message edited Citrus and Vine ] |
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Posted 01-25-2004 03:13 PM by Abducted Bookworm
Citrus, good ideas about Liz's motivations. You're probably right. I don't blame Liz for refusing to consider the possibility of suicide. It was always patently absurd. By everything they knew, it was the happiest time in the life of a mentally balanced individual. Max, Valenti, et al were absolute idiots for contemplating the possibility. (Hanson has excuse; he knew neither Alex nor the situation.) To learn something, you don't consider all possibilities. Think about multiple choice tests. Usually there's at least one obviously wrong answer, sometimes something funny. You reject that immediately. There's often another answer that's outside the reasonable range of possibilities. Seldom are there more than 2-3 choices that are serious possibilities, unless you have a mean teacher. To learn the truth about something, you eliminate the absurdities and focus on the real possibilities. You're quite right that Kivar wasn't jealous of Jesse. He played golf with him; he liked him. That's how we know Kivar is evil! I thought it was Michael who saved Isabel. That makes a lot more sense. Although I'm not a Cliffie, Isabel and Michael had a real (sibling) relationship.
[ 01-25-2004: Message edited Abducted Bookworm ] |
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Posted 01-25-2004 04:50 PM by mesmerized
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Citrus and Vine: [QB]Hey mesmerized and jjac and Abducted Bookworm and everyone!
In Alexís bedroom, Max tried to show Liz the information that the police had gathered on Alexís death. The police had reports of Alexís behavior in school and in front of the Thai delivery guy and information from the truck driver involved in the accident. All that information, which Liz refused to look at, was worth investigating. Those reports could pinpoint exactly when Alexís behavior began changing. The information could have led to finding out how Alex died, sooner than the way Liz found out. I know that it was not I was Valenti who want to share what the police gathered about Alex death to Liz. Then Valenti show it to Max after Max confronted Valenti after they buried Alex in the cemetary. He have Max read the report. Which we all know that it's against the rule to share poilce report unless you are a lawyer doing the case in which case both Max or liz are not. Excuse me but. But it was Max and Valenti who In school, Max tried to talk to Liz. He told her he was willing to consider that Alex had been killed by an alien, if Liz was willing to consider that Alex committed suicide. Max wanted to work things out with Liz. He was willing to keep an open mind about Alexís death, but Liz wasnít. Liz didnít want to work with Max or anyone else, unless they did things exactly her way. Liz wanted to be in control, because she had lost control of things, when Alex died. Liz was angry with Max and didnít want to work with him, because she had seen Max kissing Tess at the prom. She was angry with Valenti for easily dismissing Alex death as a suicide. She went to Max after Valenti. Cause one she was grieving and wants somebody to share her disgust on what Valenti presumption and she wants an allay. She never EVER went there to say she did'nt want Max to help her cause she saw him smootching Tess on the prom. WHILE SHE'S STILL HIS OFFICIAL DATE ON THE PROM. And even if she's angry would you blame her. how would you like your prom date make up with your rival on your date night living you all by yourself in the table? She never went to Max to repprouched her about his liplocking with Tess it was brought up while they were reminescing about Alex and the prom Any time people want to find out the truth about things, they need to keep an open mind. They must consider all the possibilities. Max was willing to consider that Alex was killed by an alien. He was also willing to consider that Alex had committed suicide. Liz wasnít willing to look at all the facts. She only wanted everyone to do things her way. She was unwilling to recognize that Maria and the others needed time to grieve for Alex. Liz didnít grieve with the others. She kept her grief to herself. To the others, Liz was behaving irrationally. Would you blame her. Everyone was greiving differently about Alex death. Maria has Michael, Kyle and his dad has each other Isabel has Max and her mother and Max has Tess. Plus the fact that her theory might be correct and she does'nt feel safe for all of them. Somebody in their group has do to something. Somebody has to have a different opinion on the matter and not accept what was presented to them. She act on her intuition which in the end proves to be right. CAN YOU STILL BLAME HER FOR BEING RIGHT AND SAVING THE PODSTER'S LIFE BECAUSE SHE FOUGHT FOR HER BELIEF Liz jeopardized the podsters' safety in her quest of Alexís killer. It would have done the podsters no good to know that Alex was killed by an alien, if the podsters were imprisoned for being aliens themselves. Liz didnít care about Maxís safety. She didnít care about Michael or Isabelís safety. She only wanted to find a killer, so she could pin Alexís death on someone other than herself. Excuse me ARE YOU BLAMING HER FOR ALEX BEING KILLED If Alexís death had been an accident or a suicide, then Liz would have felt even more responsible for Alexís death, since she helped to change the timeline. If Alex were killed by an alien, though, then Liz would feel less at fault for Alexís death. Thatís why it was so important to Liz to blame an alien for Alexís death, rather than let herself evaluate the information that pointed to Alexís death being a possible suicide. What is really your direct evidence that Liz was risponsible for Alex death when she reluctantly help future Max change the timeline. Why did she have the foresight that Tess was really the enemy within them. And she's right too that when they got involve in the aliens life . That when it comes to them nothing is what it might seems to be. ````````````````````````````` Tess asked Max if he was sure he wanted to go to Antar, because she loved him. She didnít need Max to go with her. She was pregnant with Maxís child. She could go to Antar herself. Tess wanted to go to Antar and be a royal, more than she wanted to stay on Earth with Max. (Similarly, Liz was more interested in going away to college than she was in staying with Max or having Max come with her to college.) Tess purposed was to get pregnant and hand her child with Max to Kivar and at the same time turn Isabel and Michael and him to Kivar's vengeance. And how will she go back to Antar without knowing how to run the Granilith. If she really wants to go on her own accord why kill Alex to translate her book. SHE LOVE MAX? that's a laugh. If she loves's Max she will relent to her destiny and Just live Max and Liz alone. IF WHAT YOU SAY THAT TESS FEELINGS FOR MAX IS LOVE. SHE SHOULD HAVE GAVE UP ON HER HOLD ON HIM AND LET HIM BE HAPPY. WITH THE ONE HE TRULY LOVES INSTEAD OF SEDUCING HIM. SHE KNOWS MAX LOVE LIZ AND WAS VERY HAPPY WITH LIZ. Oh for God sake. She did'nt change her mind at the last minute.Why will she gave it up this was her dream come true this was his supposed destiny This is what she work hard for.
I think mesmerized that you and Sonia E. are right in thinking that Liz didnít love Max unconditionally, after Max and Tess were intimate and had a child together. Liz seemed to be less in love with Max than he was with her. I did'nt say. Liz Love Max conditionally. otherwise why will she still stay with him after all the crap he laid at her door. Since Max had save Liz. It was Liz who had shown more love and support to him. the kind of support and love and loyalty that he needs. Not the fluffy deceptive thing that Tess offers. She never stop loving him.She accepted his child cause she knows that she has a part on his existense and unlike what you all want to believed that she does'nt want to handle her risponsibility on some mistake She did accept the risponsibility that her child with Max (if that's possible) is not his first born. That She's not his first time. And she could be the surrogate mother for the child of someone who killed Alex and stole his boyfriends virginity. Some people donít want to be with people who have priorities in their lives that might interfere with their love lives. Max had responsibilities that didnít involve Liz, unless she wanted them to. Max had a child. Before that, Max had been married to Tess. He had been sent to Earth on a mission. He had responsibilities to himself, as former King of Antar. Max had responsibilities to his mother and those who sent him. Max had the responsibility to see that Tess, Michael, and Isabel survived on Earth. Itís was what Max needed to do and what he wanted to do. Excuse me again did She just married the king. Did she not try to help him. Did she not do her part to try making sure their safe. since the start. from Valenti to topolsky to the FBI from the skin to Kivar. As for Tess if she's not really concerned about all of them she could have stop herself from stopping Maria showing the military where Tess is. Despite the fact that Tess killed Alex she never have the heart to turn her in. And what about her infamous deciding factor Vote. Max had the responsibility to conquer the enemies who had come to Earth. Itís what his mother and those who sent Max wanted him to do. Itís probably what Zan would have wanted to do. Where in the show that that was written. Their enemies was on earth not because they want to attack earth. What I understand is that they're essence as clone and was hidden on earth cause Kivar was reigning on Antar. His mother save them so they can all come back to save them from the enemy. The enemy was on earth because Kivar has a wiff of where they are cause he planted a traitor to be with them A traitor who made a deal with them in guise of a protector ( yeah protector my ass) Max gave up his primary responsibility to be with Liz. As a result, Earth was overrun by the Skins. Many battles were fought. Everyone was going to die, in fourteen years time. Yeah this is the only thing that I can't argue about in the mistake he made in his timeline. Because Tess was not there. Liz helped to change things, but she still didnít want Tess to be in Maxís life, not even in a working capacity. Liz didnít get back with Max, until after Tess left Earth. Oh that is not true. What about when she was helping them about the Gandarium and pierce and being in Arizona risking her life there even though she tries to detached herself from them. that was not her battle. Some people are not well suited to dealing with their boyfriendís/girlfriendís or husbandís/ wifeís former spouse and children. Liz may have been such a person. Liz may have been a person who only wanted to be involved with someone who never needed to communicate with his former spouse about their child. Even after Tess was killed and Zan was adopted, Liz still wasnít committed to Max, until after he proposed to her and she accepted. Well she shows some decency here. Why would she jump his bones imedietely after Max ordeal with Tess and giving up his Son. I guess she just show that she has respect for herself. Maybe if Tess would have shown the same thing Max would have at least tolerated her in some ways Liz might have difficulty in the future, if Max one day went to Antar to free the people there. She might not be willing to go with Max or let him go there on his own. I did'nt see any problems with her when he was saying good bye to her when he was getting ready to live with Tess . She might have been hurt . But she did'nt stop him from going. LIZ HAS NO PROBLEM WITH MAX 'S RISPONSIBILITY . I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT SHE'S WILLING TO GIVE HER PART IN HIS REIGN. AFTER ALL SHE IS HIS SEMI HILARY CLINTON . MAX NEEDS A STRONG INDEPENDENT MINDED WOMAN WITH A PURE HEART. TO BE BY HIS SIDE. NOT A FLUFFY CREAMY ONE WHO HAS HER OWN AGENDA. Maybe this is the reason why Antar failed when he was the king. BECAUSE BEHIND A GREAT MAN IS A GREAT WOMAN . Lizís future, like other peopleís futures, held the unknown. With her new powers of precognition, perhaps Liz felt more confident about the future. She was definitely happy on her wedding day. From the journal she sent her father, Liz seemed content and happy with the life she now lived with her husband and friends. but see the problem is she did'nt address herself as Liz Evans or Liz Parker Evans. She just say Liz Parker. Meanng with or without power She's confident of who she is. that even though she's married to the nan she love she is still her own person. And that she will hold back what she is if necessary because she does'nt want to loose herself or her own identity anymore. Maybe will se this if we are granted a Sason 4 or Katim will learn how to do a good TV show for once. |
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Posted 01-25-2004 05:25 PM by ~*Sonia E.*~
mesmerized- I loved reading your posts and I understand what you're saying just fine. jjac- WID to your post!! I love to read this thread and to see how the same people twist and turn things to support their favorite characters. I would have thought that these same people would be constantly praising their favorites instead of saying the same thing over and over again!! It just goes to show you how important Max and Liz's relationship was to Roswell, even when they weren't even together in S2. Liz Parker will always be the most talked about character because she was a "strong and indepedent" young woman. Max Evans "fell in love" with Liz Parker and continued to love her throughout all 3 seasons. I had written a long post but I lost it. So, I guess that meant I said enough already and it's not worth it anymore. Liz walked away from Max and left him to follow his Destiny. Liz pretended to sleep with Kyle and broke Max's heart in TEOTW. Liz used, dated, and kissed Sean. Max followed his Destiny which led him to have "loveless sex" on an observatory floor with Tess and make her pregnant. Max turned into an ass during and after his relationship with Tess. Max had to actually die and Liz bring him back to life for him to be human again. Max and Liz both went through trials and tribulations but their "love" endured because it never left their "hearts." Some people can continually blame and constantly list what they think are Liz's strengths and weaknesses, but it will never change my opinion of her. I loved the character of Liz Parker, but I could never say the same thing about Tess, Maria, and Isabel because they all "annoyed" me and did nothing to make me like them!! |
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Posted 01-25-2004 05:55 PM by mesmerized
Citrus of Vine said Liz didnít jump with Clayton/Max from the dorm window. Clayton grabbed Liz, and Max was powerless to stop Clayton. Clayton forced Liz out of the window with him to kill her. Liz wasnít trying to die with Max. She was trying to live. She loved Max, and didnít want to kill Clayton, because then Max would be killed, too. She tried to kill Clayton/Max, because thatís what Max wanted her to do. Max wanted Liz to live. Liz wanted Max to live. I guess your seeing a different thing from mine. But I swear that while they are squaring it off Liz left hand hooks on Max/ Clayton's neck and drah him in the window. The only thing that I see Clayton was doing was strangling Liz Citrus of Vine said Kivar wasnít jealous of Jesse. If Kivar had been jealous of Jesse, he would have killed Jesse to get rid of him. Kivar needed Isabel. Kivar didnít need the Granilith. The Granilith was meaningful to the other members of the Summit, but the Granilith didnít help Kivar. He had to go to Earth himself, when Tess and Maxís baby turned out to be human. Then why did she choose to come to earth during Isabels bethrothal wedding and honey moon period. I never saw him making any refference of the granilith. He was goading Isabel about her feelings for Jesse and for him I remember cearly his word to Isabel, Citrus of Vine said Humans couldnít carry the Seal of Antar. Max lost the Seal, when he transferred into Claytonís body. The Seal could not go to humans. It could only go to someone with some Antarian blood. After Claytonís body grew Antarian characteristics, Max was able to take back the Seal from Michael. This is confusing because I know that the baby was born before he died. Kivar could have return to earth earlier before Jesse proposed to Isabel . Because that was he time that Max recieved a vision of his Son being born. not on the time he and Valenti was held in the Meta chem lab. So it's possible that if the child was of royal decent The seal is with him . Because Max was alive complete with his seal and everything when he was born on Antar.
Sorry but this is not address on the show. This is mere speculation. They can't find a way to duplicate their alien technology on earth. except get the same technology from their planet the skins who are here are trapped with no way of going home except the granilith. Citrus of Vine said Antarians came to Earth, before the pods were sent to Earth. Max and Isabelís mother said in the pre-recorded message, ìOur enemies have come to Earth.î Yes off course how will she get the human DNA to clobne her childen . She also knows about the enemies being here. cause Kivar has a spies on their mothers camp and they same with their mother she also has a spy on his camp. So she knows the ongoings on Anar and earth The Royal Four were sent to Earth on a mission to eliminate the enemies who had come to Earth. The reason why they're here cause their mother want to save children from Kivar who already killed them so they can come back and to defeat Kivar. Why would his mother care for earth. And besides even Max addressed that he is to save his race his planet the earth. The shapeshifters didnít need husks to survive on speculations again. The shapeshifters real body was likethe aliens that died on the crashed and autopsied on.They are different from the skin. The skin are the enemies the shape shifters are not. Their mother even shapeshift herself into a human while transmitting her message on the orb. Nacedo was a shapeshifter who made a deal with Kivar and a traitor. Just look at Cal Lsangley. Max and Isabelís mom considered Earthlings to be Antarian subjects. The Skins wanted to take over Earth. Thatís why they overran Earth and killed humans. They didnít take over Earth before Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were born, because they werenít yet in a position to do so. They needed to be in positions of power, before they made their move. Whitaker, for example, was a Congresswoman. As such, she had power. I never get any clue in the mothers message that earth was her planets's subject. What I've heard is that Max and Michael Isabel and tess had lived before (Whitaker wanted to keep the Special Unit going, because she was tried of living on Earth in a husk. She needed the Granilith, so she could go back to Antar. She stopped working with the other Skins to take over Earth. She wanted to go back to Antar.) Witaker wanted the special unit going cause she knows the purpose of it. To interrogate, terminate and discard those who are suspected of not being of this earth.She knows about peirce's capture of Max. She knows who Max, Michael , Isabel andtess is. The skins only purpose in being here is to find and capture and eliminate the Royal four after they have the granilith with them. Because the granilith is a machine that controls time and space. And the man who has the power of controlling Time and Space. controlls his destiny. Nicholas and the other Skins tried to kill Max and Tess, when they found out who they were. They didnít care about keeping Max or Tess alive or handing them over to Kivar. After the husks were destroyed, then the Skins went to Roswell to find the podsters. The Skins needed the Granilith, so they could go back to Antar, where the atmosphere would allow them to live. The skin goes to Roswell after the granilith cause they want that to transport their technology to manufacture husk that will make them survived earth. After Tess destroyed the Skins at the high school, Nicholas went to the dupes in New York to get their help. Nicholas didnít go up against Tess or any of the other podsters himself again, because Tess was too powerful. Nicholas still needed the Granilith, so he tried another approach. Nicholas learned about the Summit from Lonnie and Rath (and maybe Ava). He showed up at the Summit, pretending to represent Kivar. Everyone that held an important position on other planet that has a connection to Antar was there from Kathana to Larek to the rest that I don't know about. And they are all one one thing and onething alone. Nicholas only wanted the Granilith. When he didnít get it at the Summit, he had Lonnie try to kill Max. I never saw him telling Loonie to kill Max. Max and Rath was pissed of with Max cause he failed to give them the granilith. That's why they try to kill him the way they did to Zan when he refuse to go to the summit |
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Posted 01-25-2004 08:42 PM by Abducted Bookworm
I believe that the "evil within" line had nothing to do with the Skins, or even shapeshifters. It refers, rather, to those who possess human beings - who operate from within, and isn't possession evil? Isabel demonstrated this ability in early S2, and Michael in S3 IIRC. Nicholas did ask Lonnie to kill Max, in exchange offering her (but not Rath) transportation home. I don't think Lonnie's attempt was the best she was capable of; she may have been playing Nicholas, rather than seriously attempting to kill Max. Or she may have been trying to kill Max.
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Posted 01-25-2004 09:05 PM by Tess Shipper Whore
quote: Okay, that isn't true. The summit was held to try to stop the fighting between Antar and the other four worlds. Nikolas came to the summit because Khivar, the 'leader' of Antar thought he should have a place there. Nikolas said that Khivar would end the fighting if he got the granolith back. Khivar hadn't told Larek, etc. that he didn't have the granolith. He only revealed it to them at the summit, because he wanted them to resent Max if he didn't take the deal.
quote: Nikolas told Lonnie that Khivar wanted Max dead before Max made his final decision at the summit. He said that he wanted Max dead whether or not he took the deal, and if Lonnie killed Max she would be able to go home. It was a bribe. She tried to kill him, but Liz saved him with the help of Isabel and Ava. If Max was dead, the supporters of Zan on Antar would be weakened with despair that the leader they needed was never coming back. Also, I think Rath and Lonnie didn't really know about the royal seal. Because when Rath and Max met with the emissary Rath said, "So you, you really are the king." It must have taken a lot of arrogance to continue believing the Roswell set were the rejects, after that. I think that Zan didn't have the seal. I also think that Rath and Lonnie were lucky that it was Max who had the seal and not Zan, because otherwise they'd have been screwed. |
Posted 01-25-2004 09:26 PM by Abducted Bookworm
quote: You're definitely right about the summit. Good point about the effect on Zan's supporters if they learned their reincarnated leader was dead! I think the most important point you raise is how Max was resented for not surrendering. Nicholas played that masterfully. At the time I thought it was terribly unrealistic, but now I think that MITC showed a keen perception of human (sentient being?) nature. It is those who refuse to surrender, who decide to fight back, who are resented. Tyrants like Kivar don't seem to be.
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Posted 01-25-2004 10:44 PM by mesmerized
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Abducted Bookworm: [QB]I believe that the "evil within" line had nothing to do with the Skins, or even shapeshifters. It refers, rather, to those who possess human beings - who operate from within, and isn't possession evil? What that line was saying was that the podster can identify their enemy by the evil within. The skins are their enemies they are well concealed by the human kinda skin they wear. And yes Liz also identify that in Tess when she finally figure out whose harming Alex.She finally figure it out and identify that Tess was the one who murdered Alex after hearing Marias mom babble and fingertapping. |