WHAT IF MICHAEL WAS
THE ACTUAL KING? #4
FROM UPN BOARD
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 159
(8/2/01 6:18:38 am)
What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Original Post:
Fehr is Fehr, Owl and myself have began speculating as to the possibilty of Michael actually being the king & not Max. I must honestly say that the mere thought of it just boggles my mind. With a little contemplation, if the characters were reversed, just think of how many questions could be answered.
Okay guys, we are on our fourth thread of this topic. We are about to discuss the episode INTO THE WOODS as soon as I buckle down and post on it. I will leave it up to Ferh is Ferh to provide us the link to the previous thread because quite honestly I have no clue how to do that.
So tonight it is my goal to post on INTO THE WOODS. Get your notes ready if you haven't already and be prepared for the debate to begin...right MSBaby?
Edited by: Camlaw at: 8/6/01 6:57:43 am
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 876
(8/2/01 8:56:57 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Here's the link to the #3 thread.
pub57.ezboard.com/fupn11frm3.showMessage?topicID=429.topic
To make it easier for others to read the other threads, here is the link to the #1 thread.
pub57.ezboard.com/fupn11frm3.showMessage?topicID=122.topic
And the #2 thread.
pub57.ezboard.com/fupn11frm3.showMessage?topicID=313.topic
Dive in!!!
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Edited by: Fehr is Fehr at: 8/2/01 9:04:37 am
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/2/01 11:46:42 am)
Present and Accounted For
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Oh, Camlaw, I didn't know you cared. I will be watching Into the Woods tonight. I will then post and wait with baited breath and a first aid kit for all of you Behrians to respond (smile). P.S. How do you put those smilies on?
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 881
(8/2/01 2:39:27 pm)
Re: Present and Accounted For
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msbaby are you going to read the other threads? If you are going to continue here, it would be appreciated if you would.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/2/01 5:36:32 pm)
F is F
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Yes Maam.... It is going to take a while. It's like never ending. I feel like Sheri Lewis and Lamb Chop. Oh, I meant to say waiting for all the Fehrians to respond.
1dj
Registered User
Posts: 8
(8/2/01 5:40:15 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Well I went and read both the other threads. I loved reading everything but I am sooooo confused now.
I must of flip-flopped back and fourth 20 times while I was reading. Boy am I dizzy.
I can't wait to see what you guys are going to bring up in Into The Woods.
DJ
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/2/01 5:43:31 pm)
I'll Be Reading Until the Next Millenium
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There are 101 replies on thread #3. Maybe I should just bow out gracefully. Reading that one thread alone will leave me "@#%$-eyed and crazy!"
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/2/01 5:44:46 pm)
P.S.
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I still think Max is THE king!!!!!!!!
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/2/01 5:46:51 pm)
Error
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I pushed the wrong buttons. The words in quotations should read "@#%$-eyed and crazy." Sorry.
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/2/01 5:50:14 pm)
What Is Going On?
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Why is the computer doing this???? I do not use swear words so what's up? Oh well. What did it think I wanted to say? Okay, let's see if it works when I rephrase it. It will leave me "cook-eyed and crazy."
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/2/01 5:53:13 pm)
Light Bulb Moment
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Now, I get it. If the computer thinks I am using offensive or verbally abusive language, it will bleep it out??? Okay. Well, rest assured, THAT I DON'T DO. Isn't technology a kick in the head. Tee-Hee. I think that's great. I told you I was computer-challenged.
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 160
(8/2/01 6:51:01 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Ferh is Ferh, you are so good to me! Thank you so much attaching the links to the previous 3 threads! You are so wonderful!
Jenniferh, where you at girlie? New thread means new king eye-candy pics. Don't let us down!
DJ1, glad you found the time to read the previous threads. I know things tend to get a little confusing at first, especially when you have believed for so long the implied message by the writers of who the king is. I must give credit where credit is due to Ferh is Ferh for opening my eyes. I see the light now! Most of the time I fumble through each episode searching for clues. But it is Ferh is Ferh that makes such a compelling argument.
MSBaby, I encourage you to read the entire previous threads as well. It is hard to make a convincing argument when you have not taken the time to do all the research. Try to keep an opened mind. You just never know what you may discover.
Ok. I am off to gather my notes and begin the posting of INTO THE WOODS. I have put it off for too long now. See ya' soon!
Edited by: Camlaw at: 8/2/01 8:43:03 pm
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 891
(8/2/01 8:57:51 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Bravo to dj1!!! Now that's a soldier! Thank you so much for taking the time to read them. It is crazy isn't it??? How you can change your mind so many times??? For me, though........there's no going back. You will find we do sometimes sway and talk about other things, but the primary focus is of course, the clues that Michael is the king. So where are you from and how old are you??? If you don't mind me asking. I am in Virginia and I'm 39. Cam is in Texas. Jen is in California. Rach is in Tennesee. I'll let them reveal their ages. Don't want to get in trouble. Well no more than usual, I mean.
Cammie! Of course I posted the links. I wuvs ya.
Pix! Pix! Pix! Pix!
Jen where are you? Should I worry? I don't like to worry. I've worried too much lately. Please post so I know you're alright.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 892
(8/2/01 9:16:26 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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To me, in my mind, the thing that stands out the most about Into the Woods.........is that Riverdog went to Michael to tell him of the sighting, not Max. Why???? Is it because of the Balance? Because Michael had visions, knew what the stones would do when inserted in the cave paintng, that it was a map? Does Riverdog recognize that these are a sign Michael is the one to go to? I mean, Riverdog did meet Max first. Why did he choose to go to Michael with this information and not Max?
Since it has been a while since I last watched it, I will be watching it again and will then post more on this.
Also I think I missed posting on the Balance, as well as 285 South, two really important eps, so if you can stand it, I'd like to add my two cents worth on those. Maybe Riverdog, too. Before we move much farther along. To me Blood Brothers, Heatwave and Toy House don't have as much, as far as definite clues, so I will not go over those. There are a few things, but I'll spare you guys that.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 893
(8/2/01 9:48:22 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Into the Woods eye candy!!!
He looks good propped up against the wall like that.
Run Michael, run!
Looking kinda serious here.
YUM YUM YUM..........oh my........I am getting all warm.
Amazing! He makes that funkalated sweater look great.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Arista Hanson
Registered User
Posts: 343
(8/2/01 9:56:36 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Yum...that's all I have to say.
~Arista~
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 161
(8/2/01 10:20:04 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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INTO THE WOODS...Not a whole lot of Micheal in this episode but the few scenes he has are quite interesting. On a side note, Maria was absolutely fabulous this episode. ANYWAY...
The premise of this story is that there is a sighting in Frazier Woods and the alien 3 are eager to explore the woods for clues. They find the perfect cover from this father/child weekend camping trip sponsored by the school.(Isabel goes into the eraser room)
ISABEL: Can't believe I'm in the eraser room with you two.
MAX: We need a safe place to talk. So I found out a lot about the sighting from Milton.
MICHAEL: Told you that place would get to you.
MAX: 5 people saw a big flash in Frazier Woods.
ISABEL: 5 basket cases.
MAX: Then why has Valenti already closed off a 4-square-mile area of the forest near the Indian reservation?
MICHAEL: You mean near the cave?
ISABEL: Max, you don't think this sighting...
MAX: It was no coincidence. We need to get there before Valenti does in case there's something to find.
ISABEL: Yeah, but we don't know how many guys he has patrolling. If anybody saw us, then it would just make him more curious.
MAX: What do you do in Frazier Woods?
ISABEL: You hike, you fish, you camp out.
MAX: I can't believe I'm actually gonna suggest this, but we could go on that camping trip this weekend.
MICHAEL: You're kidding me, right?
ISABEL: If anybody found us, we would just be kids missing from our school group.
MAX: There's only one problem. It's a...it's a fathers' weekend. Get to know your dad kind of thing.
MICHAEL: Guess that leaves me out, huh?
In the meantime, Liz's dad is pressuring her to attend the camping trip. She bribes Maria to some along with them. Alex decides to go as well once he discovers that Isabel is going to be there. So while most of the crew goes camping Michael is at home, spending some quality time with Hank.
(Hank and Michael are having another argument)
MICHAEL: There's no milk!
HANK: Use beer! I thought I told you to wash the dishes.
MICHAEL: Hey, I'm eating dinner.
HANK: Oh, that's what you call dinner?
MICHAEL: Yeah, like you care.
HANK: What did you say?
(Michael loudly knocks over some garbage)
CAMPER: Keep it down!
MICHAEL: Hey, you, shut up!
(River Dog appears from the darkness)
MICHAEL: Hey, wait! What are you doing here?
RIVER DOG: Did you see it?
MICHAEL: What are you talking about?
RIVER DOG: Did any of you see it?
MICHAEL: See what?
RIVER DOG: It was real.
MICHAEL: Would you quit talking in riddles? What was...the sighting. How do you know?
RIVER DOG: I've seen it before.
(Michael, Max, and Isabel are discussing what to do at the Crashdown)
MAX: So River Dog saw the light?
MICHAEL: The dog himself.
ISABEL: And he said it was real? You know what this could mean?
MAX: Our first real proof. Could even lead to actual contact.
MICHAEL: If we haven't had it already.
MAX: What do you mean?
MICHAEL: Why is River Dog following me? Why does he care?
ISABEL: Because he knew the fourth alien.
MICHAEL; Yeah, that's what he said.
MAX: And you don't believe him?
MICHAEL: How does he know so much? I mean, how did he know to heal me when I was sick? I mean, that's some memory from when he was a kid. And where did he get those stones from? Maybe River Dog's the guy we've been looking for all along.
MAX: The fourth alien?
MICHAEL: I think he's our father, Maxwell.
ISABEL: Michael, I don't think so.
MICHAEL: Why, because you and Max already have one?
ISABEL: No, that's not what I'm trying to say...
MICHAEL: River Dog knows more about us than Philip Evans ever will, no matter how many camping trips you guys take.
So Micheal & River Dog make a trek into the woods.
(River Dog and Michael are also searching through the woods)
RIVER DOG: Just over there.
(River Dog falls and grimaces in pain)
MICHAEL: Hey, are you all right?
RIVER DOG: Gimme your hand.
MICHAEL: Here.
RIVER DOG: Whoa!
MICHAEL: What, what, what, what, what?
RIVER DOG: I...I think I broke my ankle. It's...it's about a mile north of here. You keep going. Ah...
MICHAEL: Why don't you fix it?
RIVER DOG: What?
MICHAEL: Your ankle.
RIVER DOG: What are you talkin' about?
MICHAEL: Why don't you tell me the truth?
RIVER DOG: The truth about what?
MICHAEL: About who you are.
RIVER DOG: You think I'm Nasedo.
MICHAEL: You knew everything about us. You knew what was wrong with me when I was sick, and you knew exactly how to fix it. How did you know all those things? And why would you wanna help us if you weren't...
RIVER DOG: I'm sorry, Michael...but I'm not your father.
MICHAEL: Just had to make sure.
(Michael heals River Dog's ankle)
MICHAEL: You can walk now.
RIVER DOG: Thank you. Now we're even.
MICHAEL: I don't think we'll ever be even.
MICHAEL: Better go. Let's go.
Meanwhile Max, Isabel, Liz & Maria sneak away from camp & begin their search as well. They are followed by Kyle and the Sheriff. Eventually Liz & Maria break away from Max & Isabel to divert the police search party and to help the pod squad continue thier search in the woods.
(River Dog and Michael enter a small clearing and find Max and Isabel there as well)
RIVER DOG: Wait, what are they doing here?
MICHAEL: They came on their own.
RIVER DOG: All right. This is where it'll be.
MAX: What are we looking for?
ISABEL: Oh, my God. It's the symbol from the cave.
MICHAEL: The white light, or whatever the hell that was, caused this?
RIVER DOG: Yes. It's a sign.
(Max, Isabel, Michael, and River Dog find an alien symbol burned onto the ground. They move toward it, turn off their flashlights, and hold out their palms to the symbol, causing it to light up with a light blue glow)
RIVER DOG: It was meant for you.
MAX: What does this mean?
MICHAEL: That he's back. Nasedo's here.
MAX: Someone's here.
(The Sheriff enters the clearing)
MICHAEL: What do you want?
SHERIFF: Step outta my way.
RIVER DOG: Do as he asks.
(Max uses his power to make the alien symbol disappear while Michael is blocking the Sheriff)
SHERIFF: Something was here. What were you looking at?
MAX: We've been lost for hours here. Thank you for finding us.
(Max, Michael, and Isabel walk off)
What intrigued me the most about this episode, besides Maria, is the way River Dog approaches Michael. It makes me wonder if River Dog knew Michael was the true leader and the one the message was meant for. Plus the reaction River Dog had to Max & Isabel's presence. It was like River Dog felt that they did not belong there. I wish the writers had concentrated more on the importance of River Dog, but just like every other plot hole, I am afraid it will never be filled.
Now as for Michael. His reluctance to believe the sighting until approached by Riverdog, shows me he is maturing. Normally the mere idea of alien activity has him all in a bunch and raring to go investigate. And even after he is approached by River Dog, he does not try to tag along with Max & Isabel, nor does he try to investigate it on his own. He goes with River Dog. Then he confronts River Dog's knowledge of the group. He searches for answers to clarify his existance. He understands the message left by Nasedo while Max sits back confused. He stands in front of the Sheriff, showing no fear, and instinctually expressing his lack of intimidation, while Max hides behind him and discards the message.
Michael is king because he has a fearless leadership quality. He possesses the instinct and knowledge that the other 2 do not. He thinks beyond the obvious and usually tends to be on the money when it comes to objects meaning more than they appear.
Tell me your thoughts...
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 566
(8/3/01 12:49:08 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Cam and Fehr It's nice to be thought of... I am fine! Just been very busy!! Got a new 2nd job... been shopping for my trip.... and engaging in general mayhem!!
I have watched "Into The Woods" but tonite my brains are over worked and I want to wait until tomorrow to make my post!! But I had to put up some "eye candy"... And thanks Fehr for yours!! I know I can always count on you for nice things to look at!!! And CamI love to read your posts on Michael cuz they are so on the mark!! I get goosebumps!
Anyway it's late.... and I am sleepy so here's a few for the road!!
Come to my window Space boy!!
That's the way uh huh, uh huh I like it!!
PYT...pretty young thing!!
Okay so it's lame but the pics are perfect!!!
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/3/01 2:38:17 am)
Psych 101
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Alright. I am going to try and read through all these threads. It may take a while. F is F, yoiuy did raise good points about Riverdog going to Michael and having a certain closeness to him. I asked the same question on the Wb board. It was the concensus of the group tat it was " a general bonding with alien thing." I will however look at ALL the info on the other threads. P.S. using that phychology stuff was cute especially referring to someone else as a real soldier...it sorta-kinda whipped me into action. Am I the only one who refutes the views of this thread or do I have some allies out there? I feel like an episode of Survivor...secret alliances and all...smile. Was there a thread saying Max was king earlier? I only found this site about a month ago. Okay...okay I will stick to the topic. I'm outta here until later.
Arista Hanson
Registered User
Posts: 344
(8/3/01 2:55:26 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Msbaby there is a thread 50 reasons why Max is the king, I didn't read all of it...in fact I stoped at number one which was 'He is cute.'
~Arista~
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/3/01 3:51:49 am)
I Look And Feel Like A Drunk
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I ahve just finished reading the first thread on this topic...ALL FIVE, LONG PAGES. I will continue tomorrow as it is 4:46 a.m. I will say this: I absolutely adore Roswell and now that I am reading these hidden agendas, I love it even more. I am glad we can agree to disagree as I have not changed my mind about Max as the true king. It is just fascinating how different people, from different walks of life can come together and add so much to the "kitty" of Roswell. It is definitely making the summer interesting although I would prefer the reruns to anything. I went to that link on the Mythology of Liz...how interesting. Roswellians are even looking at wall paper and stuff for clues. I am wondering if this show could be used in my English class at school. Well, I am about to keel over so I will talk to ya later. Thanks Arista for the link.
Page 2
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/3/01 3:59:40 am)
For Arista
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Are you trying to kill me? I went to that link. I don't mean to be condescending but......what was that????
1dj
Registered User
Posts: 9
(8/3/01 11:42:16 am)
Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Sir, DJ reporting for duty, sir. Is that how it's done?
OK, now remember I'm new at this and I want to try to explain where my confusion comes in.....that way you guys can set me straight.
The whole Riverdog going to Michael instead of Max, very good point. The bond (don't know if that is the right word) that Michael and Riverdog seem to have, makes you wonder. Ok, so this is where I will start saying maybe he is the actual king. But then like Camlaw says
Quote:
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He stands in front of the Sheriff, showing no fear, and instinctually expressing his lack of intimidation, while Max hides behind him and discards the message.
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this makes me think of a "protector" to the king.
This is the problem I'm having. I take one step forward and then one step back. Geez, I'm getting nowhere. Of course, I guess I have taken more steps forward because I really do love thinking of this possibility. You guys really do know how to make people look at things differently.
msbaby as you can see, I keep going back and fourth. I am still at the point that I don't know WHAT I think anymore. I'm just glad I found this thread and it really does make you think. Don't you think that they make some very, very good points?
Fehr is Fehr, hey I'm 39 too and I don't live that far from you. I live in Pennsylvania.
DJ
Arista Hanson
Registered User
Posts: 345
(8/3/01 12:45:48 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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This episode also shows that where both Michael and Max want answers only Michael can understand them and except them. Notice not only did Michael know that the symbol meant Nasedo was here, but where as Max quickly forgot about it, Michael sent one back to Nasedo, knowing exactly how to do it. The same thing with the Map, Michael is the one who understands it, but Max is the one who is unable to except that it is real, tries to pass it off a hallucination.
~Arista~
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/3/01 12:55:24 pm)
DJ
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Glad to have you aboard! I will comment on IUnto The Woods later on tonight. I just came back from the eye doctor and I have those dilated drops in my eyes. I need to read threads 2 and 3 before tonight. Yes, Dj and Arista some good points were made . I'll talk to you later....P.S. Isn't this fun? I feel like I am in a smoke-filled coffe house and we are discussing poetry or better yet, I feel like I'm part of Oprah's book club. I usually visit in the middle of the night, but I am just too excited, si I will post around eveningish. Bye friends.
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/3/01 1:00:50 pm)
Typos
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Sorry, for the typos. I can barely see the board and typing was not one of my electives. But then again, when I can see well, I still make mistakes. Although someone made me chuckle by asking me if I knew about "spell check." I am an excellent speller. I just have two handicaps right now...these drops and the fact that I pluck everyhting out with two fingers.
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/3/01 5:59:27 pm)
Camlaw...Ready or Not .......Here I Come
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I don't know, but in you I see friendly fire. Here is my take on Into The Woods and the thought that Michael is King. I will be going according to scenes. It's easier for me. I hope it won't be too confusing. I still stand by my original comment Max is the TRUE king. In the words of Alex, "Yeah, Baby!"
1. The first time we meet Max and Michael is in the eraser room. Isabel is the last to enter. As you enter the room, Max is on the "right" side of the entry way. We all know that the "right or the right side" of anything
denotes power; authority. We use our right hand to shake in greeting someone or "sealing" a deal. Michael stood on the left side of the door. His stance while at the door was one likened to that of a security/body guard protecting the king and making sure if anyone entered the King would be protected. Upon Isabel's entrance, he immediately locked the door. It seemed as if it were second nature. He did not have to be told. He just did it. Again assuming the role of second command. As if in sync, upon Michael's securing the perimeter, Max begins to speak. Max is given full audience as anyone would in the presence of a leader. Max allowed for input but both Michael and Isabel allowed the final word to go to the King.
2, We next see Michael in the presence of Riverdog at the Trailer Park. He then converses with Michael, questioning him as to whether he saw the flash or not. Riverdog is Native American. It is part of their culture to respect nature, the spirits and above all, authority. Riverdog went to Michael because it is inappropriate and in very bad taste/decorum to have audience with a King without permission of the King and/or his advisors. He went to Michael to discuss what had transpired and his views on it. He knew he not dare go directly to Max. Riverdog was to Nasedo, what Micheal is to Max...a consultant, advisor, someone with the role of showing their "charges, if you will" a more perfect way. This is the "bond" that they share and the answer to the question most of us Roswellians have about their relationship. I have not seen all the episodes. As I said before, I was in the Hospital, but, I do not remember a time when Riverdog ever went to Max directly. I can be wrong. Even when Riverdog tested Max, he kept his distance. Even after Michael was healed, Riverdog kept his distance from Max. This type of familiararity is just not done in the presence of royalty. Please note that Riverdog never has any problem confronting Michael as we will see when we discuss his later return to the trailer park.
3. The next scenewhere we see the three together is at The Crashdown Cafe. Notice while seated in the booth, Michael is seated across the Isabel and Max as if he has been given permission by the King or has been given audience to report his findings of his investigation and verbalize his views. He is attentive to both Max and Isavbel. There is no joking or jesting but serious conversation which should be the tone of one second in command. In the words of Officer Friday in Dragnet...just report the facts and that is what he did. The entire tone of the "meeting is that of counselor or trusted advisor and friend. One who obviously has found favor with the king. We now are at the cash register. Max, Michael, Liz and Maria are present. Notice again, the tone. Max is speaking. Michael is silent, as he should be...the King is speaking. At the end of the conversation Max leaves...giving no second thought, Michael retrieves the change from maria. As he should. A king should not have to be bothered with things like that. It is one of the many responsibilities of the second in command.
4. Briefly, let's return with Riverdog to the Trailer Park. One thing to note. Riverdog did not knock or whistle as before. He barged in and awakened Michael. Try doing that at the White House in at Buckingham Palace. It simply is not done with royalty or peole in leadership.
5. Finally, we are in the woods at the place of the sighting. Riverdog questioned Max and Isabel's presence there. His thought, "we did not thoroughly investigate." You never present royalty or leaders with an idea which is just that...an idea. Michael and Riverdog were still in the investigation phase. What if what they suspected did not "pan" out and you brought your idle speculation before the king???Riverdog looked at Isabel and I blieve for a "fleeting" moment at Max and said, "it was meant for you." Notice, he did not look at Michael because it was information for the King and Princess. Max asked what it meant, looking at Michael. Maybe Max knew but wanted a second opinion. He was looking toward his trusted advisor and second in command. Michael said, "someone's here>" His ears, eyes, senses are always fine tuned and ready to react to protect the king. This is evident because immediately upon making that statement, he jumped to his feet and stood in fornt of Max and Isabel as any good body guard would do until he could adequately assess the situation. He then stood before Sheriff V., looked him straight in his eyes and maintained his stance of protection. He would not let Sheriff V. proceed until he assessed that it was safe to do so. He had the safety and welfare of Max and Isabel in mind. This is apparent upon their leaving with Vlenti. Michael lead the recessional away from the sight. He maintaining a protective shield between Valenti and the King. He did not say godd-bye to Riverdog, he didn't even acknowledge him because his interaction with Riverdog was over. He had a job to do and it was to see that Max and Isabel exited the woods safe and unharmed.
Finally, I will saythis...it is not MIchael's nature, one who has taken credit for Discovering Topolsky was not who she appeared to be, Sister Dupree was sole heir to a fortune and the granolith ignition key, to allow anyone to steal his thunder.
Thank you for your patience. I will await your rebuttals.
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/3/01 6:31:18 pm)
Correction
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It was Max who, while in Bradford Woods said,"someone's here."" The fact still remains that Michael took over in the role of protector.
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 579
(8/3/01 6:54:07 pm)
Re: Correction
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Um msbaby In reference to your second point (I think it was the second) about Michael staying to get the change from Maria because a King wouldn't bother with such things.. I think Michael stayed to get the change cause he wanted one more look at that aqua bra Maria was sporting!!
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 162
(8/3/01 7:13:19 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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1dj...I saw Michael's stance with the Sheriff as a stand off of power. Michael does not see the Sheriff as more powerful than he. I see his approach as a challenge of authority, not a protector of Max.
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 895
(8/3/01 10:15:25 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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msbaby I do not want to give you the wrong impression, but I don't think you really get the gist of this. I am not through with your post, but I can see that you are making alot of assumptions and drawing opinions about things that have no basis in fact or what is happening in the ep. First off at this stage in the game, they and no one else, such as Maria or any of the other humans, know they are royalty. No one else is going to be treating them this or that way because of it, because they don't know it. We don't know for sure why Riverdog treated them in certain ways. I see Riverdog being stand offish to Max more like, "I told you what I had to, I have nothing else to say and no reason to be around you", not that he kept a distance out of respect. That Riverdog went to Michael is important, because in Indian culture those who have the ability to have visions are the most revered. So thinking Riverdog didn't go to Max out of some respect thing doesn't get it, clearly he respects Michael. Michael has "gone someplace else and came back" with knowledge they needed.
I guess what I'm trying to say is this isn't about pulling each seperate scene apart and analizing body langauge and things to that extreme in nature. It's about the blatant things, the questionable things. You are throwing around things about everyone knowing the right side signifies authority or something, when in alot of countries that isn't the case. In Europe they drive on the left side. And on that note, if facing the doorway from the inside, Michael was on the right!!! And actually, he seemed kinda laid back.
Anyway................
I need to finish reading your post.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Edited by: Fehr is Fehr at: 8/3/01 11:55:53 pm
Fehr is Fehr
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(8/3/01 10:43:53 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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2, We next see Michael in the presence of Riverdog at the Trailer Park. He then converses with Michael, questioning him as to whether he saw the flash or not. Riverdog is Native American. It is part of their culture to respect nature, the spirits and above all, authority. Riverdog went to Michael because it is inappropriate and in very bad taste/decorum to have audience with a King without permission of the King and/or his advisors. He went to Michael to discuss what had transpired and his views on it. He knew he not dare go directly to Max. Riverdog was to Nasedo, what Micheal is to Max...a consultant, advisor, someone with the role of showing their "charges, if you will" a more perfect way. This is the "bond" that they share and the answer to the question most of us Roswellians have about their relationship. I have not seen all the episodes. As I said before, I was in the Hospital, but, I do not remember a time when Riverdog ever went to Max directly. I can be wrong. Even when Riverdog tested Max, he kept his distance. Even after Michael was healed, Riverdog kept his distance from Max. This type of familiararity is just not done in the presence of royalty. Please note that Riverdog never has any problem confronting Michael as we will see when we discuss his later return to the trailer park.
I have a real problem with this one.
You can't say that Riverdog didn't go to Max because he knew he shouldn't assume he can have conversations with a king without his or his advisors permission..........Riverdog didn't know anybody was a king. He did know that Michael was the one with the most knowledge and the one who has visions.
I would like to point out that, yes, in Native culture there is alot of emphasis on respect, but it is usually within the group and not extended to outsiders. When it is, it is usually for a particular and or specific reason, as in this case, becasue Michael is a seer. A shaman or seer is more revered than any other members of a tribe.
I in no way see how you draw that Riverdog was a consultant to Nesado, or that Michael is that to Max. You are telling me you see Michael as one who gives sound advice to Max????? Showing him a more perfect way???? I want to know what that is based on? How you came to that.........
You are right, even after healing Michael, Riverdog kept a distance, but it wasn't only from Max. It was the whole group When he did seek someone out, it was Michael. He holds Michael in a higher regard becasue of his status as a person of vision. He sought Michael out, because in the group, Michael is the most open, the one who can reveal things through deeply hidden but emerging knowledge. Michael was the one Riverdog choose. It had nothing to do with Riverdog respecting Max as a king, because he didn't know that. He based his decision on what he did know, and that was Michael would probably receive some more information if someone was trying to contact them, or had left them a sign. Which, I might add, did turn out exactly that way.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Edited by: Fehr is Fehr at: 8/3/01 10:50:05 pm
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 163
(8/3/01 10:54:16 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Ferh is Ferh...I knew you would make a much more convincing argument than I would. So far everything you have said in rebuttle to MSBaby I agree with 100%. Keep it up! I am cheering for you in my little corner over here.
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 897
(8/3/01 11:02:14 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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From #3
Michael is seated across the Isabel and Max as if he has been given permission by the King or has been given audience to report his findings of his investigation and verbalize his views. He is attentive to both Max and Isavbel. There is no joking or jesting but serious conversation which should be the tone of one second in command.
I think you meant across from, anyway..........Michael if anything was the one reporting what information he had been told, to his second, as if seeking counsel or advice.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
More #3
Max, Michael, Liz and Maria are present. Notice again, the tone. Max is speaking. Michael is silent, as he should be...the King is speaking. At the end of the conversation Max leaves...giving no second thought, Michael retrieves the change from maria. As he should. A king should not have to be bothered with things like that. It is one of the many responsibilities of the second in command.
Sorry, but this is just you translating this your way. This is what I mean about picking apart scenes. This has absolutely nothing to do with anything. It is conjecture.
Michael is silent as he should be....What is that??? They are just paying a check at a cafe, for crying out loud. Some things are just what they are, nothing else. And anyway, if you want to play it this way..........kings are well known to have mouth pieces and have others do the talking for them. And I think Max left in a hurry because of Liz. Michael lingered becasue of Maria. They are teenagers with mixed up emotions. I don't think there was any hidden meaning in this scene.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Edited by: Fehr is Fehr at: 8/4/01 12:00:50 am
Fehr is Fehr
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Posts: 898
(8/3/01 11:12:52 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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#4
4. Briefly, let's return with Riverdog to the Trailer Park. One thing to note. Riverdog did not knock or whistle as before. He barged in and awakened Michael. Try doing that at the White House in at Buckingham Palace. It simply is not done with royalty or peole in leadership.
Again, Riverdog had no knowledge of them being royalty. All he knew was he had to get Michael!
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 899
(8/3/01 11:29:12 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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5. Finally, we are in the woods at the place of the sighting. Riverdog questioned Max and Isabel's presence there. His thought, "we did not thoroughly investigate." You never present royalty or leaders with an idea which is just that...an idea. Michael and Riverdog were still in the investigation phase. What if what they suspected did not "pan" out and you brought your idle speculation before the king???Riverdog looked at Isabel and I blieve for a "fleeting" moment at Max and said, "it was meant for you." Notice, he did not look at Michael because it was information for the King and Princess. Max asked what it meant, looking at Michael. Maybe Max knew but wanted a second opinion. He was looking toward his trusted advisor and second in command. Michael said, "someone's here>" His ears, eyes, senses are always fine tuned and ready to react to protect the king. This is evident because immediately upon making that statement, he jumped to his feet and stood in fornt of Max and Isabel as any good body guard would do until he could adequately assess the situation. He then stood before Sheriff V., looked him straight in his eyes and maintained his stance of protection. He would not let Sheriff V. proceed until he assessed that it was safe to do so. He had the safety and welfare of Max and Isabel in mind. This is apparent upon their leaving with Vlenti. Michael lead the recessional away from the sight. He maintaining a protective shield between Valenti and the King. He did not say godd-bye to Riverdog, he didn't even acknowledge him because his interaction with Riverdog was over. He had a job to do and it was to see that Max and Isabel exited the woods safe and unharmed.
I think Riverdog questioned Max and Isabel's presence there becasue he knew if there were a message, it wouldn't be one of them to understand it. It would be Michael. Please quit with the references to others treating them this or that way because they are royalty. No one knows that. Riverdog's actions and demeanor were based on what he did know. And again, that was that Michael was the most insightful of the group and most likely to understand any clues, information or signs that might be left or communicated. Or that he may receive another vision. When Riverdog said, "it was meant for you", he meant the group, obviously. I mean why would he be taking Michael out there if it wasn't meant for him??? It wasn't because Riverdog thought it was for a king and princess, I wish you'd get off that, it doesn't have merit. As for him stepping up to face off Valenti.......power struggle, through and through. Michael was clearly the one in authority in this part of the scene. He wasn't going to back down, and I saw it more as , "you have no say over me", than I did as one of protection. Funny that you see him leading them out of the woods as anything other than what it was. Him leading them. Again, assuming the role of leader and authority. It wasn't his mission, it was just him showing that they were leaving, and NOW!
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 900
(8/3/01 11:48:40 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Hey Cam. How are your eyes and brain tonight? You gave them a workout last night!
Jen! So glad all is cool. Maybe we should find ourselves some aqua bras. Especially if they attract spaceboys.
1dj what will it take to convince you??? So we are the same age. I have really enjoyed my thirties! ALot more than my twenties. Did you go to the Philly Roswell party inMarch? I was ther and had a blast!!!
msbaby I am an Aries. Can you tell?
You said it yourself, "just the facts". References to Riverdog or anyone else treating them a certain way because they are royalty doesn't hold water. Try to base your thoughts on what is actually happening, not on what you think is happening. Like when you said Riverdog didn't go to Max because he's a king. There is NO basis for that statement. You haven't anything to back that statement up. I hope you understand what I am trying to say.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Arista Hanson
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Posts: 346
(8/3/01 11:52:01 pm)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Ok, so Ferh can ask you a question. Ok, you think that Michael is king, but do actually want him to be king? I mean do think it would be for the show interest wise?
~Arista~
Fehr is Fehr
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Posts: 901
(8/4/01 12:18:16 am)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Oh, I don't know Arista. Personally.......I think it would be a kick ass storyline and a whopper of a jolt to alot of veiwers! I mean, I'm sure there are peeps who would be mad if Max wasn't really the king.
I honestly think if or when it is all in the open, Michael would opt for a more diplomatic or democratic form of leadership. He isn't really playing into that whole Destiny thing, ya know? He wouldn't be comfortable with everything depending on him. He would want what was best, I think. I believe he would use his influence to straighten things out and that would mean decision mades by the group, or if Antar is involved........what the majority wants. Michael has a deep capacity for loyalty, as evident in his relationships with Maria, Max, Isabel, Laurie Dupree. He also knows all too well what it feels like to be oppressed, mistreated, and bossed around, which is why I think he would not try to rule as king, but would opt to let the people on Antar decide how they should be governed, as well as the group deciding on things together here.
I think it would be a very interesting turn of events for the show. It would definitely stir up some heated talks on alot of boards!
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 580
(8/4/01 12:40:32 am)
Re: Re:What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Thank you Fehr for those enlightening posts!! Cam and I knew you could clear things up for us!!
I think it's the things that you don't initially see that are the ones that hold the answers.... you can always look closer at any situation and find hidden meanings... they may be of your own interpretation or they may be a hard fact... coming on this board gives us a chance to share what we think we may have seen and read what others have found... and hash it all out. I think it's great. I love to read the posts here. It makes me think and gives me goosebumps!!
Let's go shopping for those aqua bras Fehr!!!!
Feel better Cam?? Your decision to start this board was an excellent one!!
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
Arista Hanson
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Posts: 348
(8/4/01 12:41:11 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Yeah, I agree...plus it would have tons of character development.
~Arista~
Page 3
msbaby
Unregistered User
(8/4/01 12:52:09 am)
F is F
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Okay, I am exiting this thread. Not in defeat or anger but because I am totally confused. I thought my prupose was to bring in my viewpoint. I sincerely feel that if my comments do not align with the posters here is is dismissed as not getting gost or the flavor of this topic. I did analyze each scene becasue I felt that was what I was to do and bring fresh views to the page. A lot of you "feel" Michael is the King. Tou look at each episode and "interpret" accordingly. I merely gave you my interpretation. I am definitely exiting, never to return to this thread, not because I am upset but because I do not agree with the original premise. You guys keep discussing the topic because it is fun to do so. Hopefully, I will "engage in general bonding" on another topic (smile...I wish I knew how to use those smilies).
Camlaw
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Posts: 164
(8/4/01 11:04:23 am)
What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Arista Hanson...You asked Ferh is Ferh the question, but I thought I would respond as well. In answer to your question of wanting Michael to really be the king, I have always felt that the previous king never really did a bad job. He just was overthrown and defeated by a more powerful opponent. If history has taught us anything, it is that every dynasty must fall. Plus from what little we have learned from the previous reign, there were many mitigating circumstances that lead to their demise. Betrayal being one of them. Then there is the definition of Kivar being extremely ruthless, which the Antar king has been defined as not. As I have said before, I feel it was the Antar king's collective counsel as well as the king himself that made the mistakes. I think they probably under estimated Kivar. So to me whoever the true king turns out to be, I do no think he is labeled as being a bad one. I believe Michael was that king because he possesses the knowledge and instinctual leadership qualities that Max does not. Max is very protective. He advises Michael and Isabel what to do, but they only consider his advice and often decide how to proceed on their own. I agree with Ferh is Ferh in that I think it would shake up the show, not to mention the boards. I enjoy searching outside the scope of the implied storyline and this king theory has revealed some very interesting contradictory evidence.
MSBaby...I warned you that you would receive very passionate responses regarding this topic. And it is not a question of whether or not you agree with us, but whether your stance is back up by sufficient evidence. And if you had completely read the first 3 threads you would see that the evidence presented to prove Michael as king has nothing to do with positions of where he physically stands or when he speaks or does not speak. The evidence that we present is of his personality, the knowledge he alone seems to possess, his actions regarding certain incidents, the blatant power struggle between him and others, etc. I applaud your attempt to support your belief of Max as king. And as you can see we read it thoroughly. I understand your decision to leave this thread. But to help lessen your confusion, no matter what thread you are on I encourage you to read it completely before you post.
Ferh is Ferh...you are an Aries too huh? Welcome to the club. Yes, I feel much better today. Not concetrating as hard. Something you said made me re-read my post and question what I had posted regarding INTO THE WOODS. Maybe I can catch you later online so that we may discuss it.
Jenniferh...you and them space boys. My little hoochie mama is always on the prowl. Some days I am thrilled to have started this thread and other times I am so self conscious about it. It is scary at times to open yourself up to the criticism.
dj1...I understand your apprehension to decide one way or the other who the king is. All I can say is keep reading, keep contemplating and above all keep an opened mind. We are only about half way through the first season. We still have a ways to go and much more evidence to present.
To everyone else....Hello! I enjoy all your questions and insights. You guys are what make this thread so interesting and captivating for me. Keep those posts coming.
Shilohaura
Registered User
Posts: 163
(8/4/01 12:43:33 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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I am one of those who loves to speculate on possibilities of Michael as King - in fact, I was thinking about it myself long before I found this board or thread!
I do, however, also speculate the other way also. In msbaby's defense (if you want to call it that) I think she was referring to what she perceived as the natures of these characters as they came forth even prior to viewing the "video mail" from Mom. The Riverdog issues aside (I'll get to them in a minute) I think we could say we've seen Max take a "leadership" role & Michael a "protector" role from the Pilot on, if you're looking for clues in that direction. You can also find clues for Michael in the "leadership" role and Max as the "protector" from day one! That's what makes this debate so interesting! I think what msbaby was looking at were qualities that she saw coming through before the royalty thing was ever presented that seemed to be natural for the characters, possibly an unconcious result of the "alien essence" that was implanted in them at the time they were "engineered". From this viewpoint, the message from Mom would simply have explained why they had always related to one another in the pecking order they had naturally established. Whether Mom was talking to Max or Michael is the question in mind! I think if this thread were renamed "Who is the real King?", msbaby's observations would be very appropriate. Maybe a thread to that effect should be started so that those of us that swing both ways could post all of our observations - just an idea - don't want to start a thread that would be considered redundant (don't ya love that word!
As for Riverdog - I lived in the Navajo/Pueblo culture for almost 6 years, so I understand their life philosophy, which is pretty interesting. In a way, you're right - Riverdog relates better to Michael because he's a see-er. Also, Michael joined him in a very serious ceremony which lead to visions & knowlege. Max waited outside in the jeep - being told he couldn't bother RD at that time. Max has always been more attached to Earth, probably because he has a life here - or at least he did until the last part of S2! He stated that all he ever wanted was to be normal and that he'd been running from the alien side thinking it was a bad thing. He gave surface curiosity to finding information about his alien side, but was more concerned about keeping it hidden in order to live quietly.
Michael, on the other hand, has had no real connections to anybody on Earth (until Maria). Life's been one bummer after another. In VLV, he even expressed that Max, his closest bud, didn't know how to really heal him. He was bonded to Max & Iz because they were the only ones like him - they accepted him for what he was - even his impulsive & often angry behavior - because they truly shared his secrets. But I often got the feeling early on that he would have left them behind if the ship came & they didn't want to go - even without knowing if it would truly be better elsewhere. (Of course, Maria eventually took care of "healing" him rather nicely! ) Riverdog knew that Michael was more open to the things Nasado taught him - open to discovery & finding out. Max was open, but more to gain info needed to better "cover up" their secret. It was natural for RD to seek out the most open one - no matter what the reason for his openess. Had Max joined him in the sweat lodge, had the visions & expressed the interest in "knowing" as Michael did, RD would have been more open to him. RD's warning to Liz to make sure her trust in Max was warranted came from his experience with Nasado eventually killing, or destroying, that one other person he had previously treated as a friend - Nasado, too, was into secrecy & covering up, which could be dangerous. Desperate people do desperate things, which, of course, eventually happened.
Sorry for this long tirade, but my experiences in Navajo living and ceremonies make me dispute RD coming to Michael as a sign he might be King. (Michael also lived in a more outskirt part of town - which would make coming to him more
un-noticed). And if the argument that no one new of the royalty thing yet makes msbaby's comments off track, the same could be said for any of the signs that occurred prior to the Mommygram that Michael could be King.
As I said, I've seen many hints that Michael could be the King & am very open to them (Although I think Michael would be overwhelmed by that thought - He seemed a little taken back when Max told him "then YOU can be Fearless Leader" when they were worried Brody might kill Max ). And I think hints before the Mommygram can be considered because their essences would have effected their behaviors even before they knew the reasons for it. So, I'm not trying to convince anyone here that Max is King instead of Michael. (As was previously stated - RD didn't know about the royalty thing at that time - wait, unless Nasado told him, hum....... ). Only saying I can't buy RD's coming to Michael instead of Max as a clue (unless you want to consider that last minute thought I just had about Nasado telling RD! Hey, maybe that's why Nasado killed that other guy who knew about him - maybe he was going to spill
all!)
Sorry for the probably off topic tirade! I'll back out before I get booted!
1dj
Registered User
Posts: 11
(8/4/01 2:01:46 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Camlaw and Fehr is Fehr, see that is why I am enjoying reading this thread sooo much. Because while I saw Michael as the protector there, you guys saw Michael's stance with the Sheriff as a stand off of power. I never would of thought of that. I like that.
Camlaw, believe me I'm keeping an open mind because this theory fascinates me. I'm just so impressed how many clues you guys have picked up on.
Fehr is Fehr no I haven't been to any Roswell parties. The thirties have been fine but I think I'll stop here and not enter into the forties. I'm a Pisces.
Can't wait to read more.
Fehr is Fehr
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Posts: 913
(8/4/01 10:26:17 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Shilo I wasn't saying Riverdog went to Michael because he was the king. I was refuting what msbaby said was the reason Riverdog didn't go to Max. She said he didn't go to Max because of respect, ect. I was just trying to offer the most plausible reason he went to Michael, not that he did it because Michael is the king.
Did what I just said make any sense to anyone???
Still reading...........
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 594
(8/4/01 10:44:05 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Makes sense to me!!
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 914
(8/4/01 10:53:49 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Posted by Shilo:
And if the argument that no one new of the royalty thing yet makes msbaby's comments off track, the same could be said for any of the signs that occurred prior to the Mommygram that Michael could be King.
Shilo what was meant by that is, that the way others see and treat them are not indicators of anything, as far as who is king. Most of what this theory is based on has nothing whatsoever to do with how others preceive them, or treat them. It is about the little odd things that could be indicators of who the true king is. Such as Michael being the one who has visions which yeild clues. That Michael's pic is the first in the Destiny book. Lots of weird things. Maria refering to him as Elvis, who we all know was the king. Isabel refering to Michael as a prince in VLV. Michael even exclaiming, "the king ladies and gentlemen", in VLV. The device Brody had knocking him down and injuring him. It's about how Max and Micahel act in different situations.
You know, actually the clues before the momogram are the most important. After the momogram they started to try to act like they were supposed to.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Shilohaura
Registered User
Posts: 169
(8/5/01 1:10:52 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Gotcha!
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 915
(8/5/01 9:45:24 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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I was thinking on this last night, and then again this morning..........which I wouldn't be up at this hour on a Sunday, if my downstairs neighbor hadn't decided that I could benefit from her watching the gospel hour at the highest volume possible ........but I digress........
Anyhoo..........What bothered me the most about the way msbaby responded was that she came across as if the things she pointed out were facts. Her repeated references to Max the king, ect. The one about what went down when they were paying their check at the Crashdown comes to mind. Saying Micahal was silent as he should be.....And the thing about why Riverdog didn't go to Max........what was there to back up that opinion? What happened in the ep to make her draw that conclusion?
I try to present my argument in a way that says, Michael may be the king because of x, y or z. Or that I think he is the king because of this, that or the other thing. Not that he IS and that's why, ect. Not that he IS the king and that's why he acts this way or that. That he acts this way or that may indicate he is the king....
Again, don't think I'm being as articulate as I'd like to be.
Shilo in the Balance Max wasn't in the Jeep waiting when Michael went into the sweat with Riverdog. Max was on a date with Liz at Senor Chow's. Michael went there without Max knowing, remember? "I promised I'd be a trust worthy as Max", were the words he said to Isabel..........
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 178
(8/5/01 10:15:50 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Ferh is Ferh...I have pondered this topic endlessly also and I agree with most of your comments. But I may have added to the confusion of MSBaby because I have said before, "Michael is the king just because." I try to bring forth proof of my belief, but I must plead guilty to also taking a few of the avenues that MSBaby has. Although I do think she went to the extreme with the master/servant bit.
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 599
(8/5/01 4:33:54 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Fehr I have always felt that you made yourself perfectly clear in that you were simply giving examples of what you felt may prove that Michael may be King. Sometimes all it takes is looking at things differently to see what's really there... or catch something you missed before.
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 179
(8/5/01 11:24:30 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Well guys, it is about that time to post on the next episode, THE CONVENTION. The only word that comes to mind right now is MUD. So get your notes ready and be prepared.
Shilohaura
Registered User
Posts: 170
(8/6/01 2:05:57 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Fehr - Just wanted to clear up my statement about Max waiting in the jeep & Michael going into the sweat lodge. Sorry if it sounded like I thought they were in the same scene! I meant - WHEN Max went to find Riverdog & they said he couldn't be bothered or whatever, Max waited for him in the jeep - but didn't leave without seeing him. Kind of a passive/agressive approach. Michael, on the other hand, WHEN he went to see him, wouldn't take "no" for an answer & just barged in & joined the ceremony. I knew they weren't there at the same time. Sorry for the confusion.
Bring on The Convention! I love that episode!
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 921
(8/6/01 6:12:04 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh................Gotcha ya.
Also in that scene from the Balance, since we're talking about it...........it seemed to me that Max was really displaying traits of a protector. He needed to know what to do to help Michael, and he wasn't gonna leave until he found out what he needed to know. To the point of fighting with Eddie and making a stance that he wasn't budging until he saw Riverdog. Thank goodness Liz was more diplomatic.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 180
(8/6/01 7:16:58 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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THE CONVENTION is a really fun little episode. The obnoxious celebrity guest, the crazed convention goers, the evil alien hunter. But amongst the serious chaos there are some really wonderful humorous moments. It was nice to see the struggle the guys were having trying to get over the girls. Never thought a little word like "MUD" could make me smile. Poor Alex should haved seeked counsel with Michael instead of Liz & Maria for his Isabel woes. And I wonder if Jen & Larry really did settle down in Roswell, how come we never see them again? Michael in a wrestling costume. (Settle down Jenniferh ) I know this post has nothing to do with the king, but I thought I would post alittle on the entire episode before tackling the subject at hand.
Edited by: Camlaw at: 8/7/01 6:53:34 pm
aliencrazed
Registered User
Posts: 9
(8/7/01 8:27:58 pm)
If Michael were King
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Don't you think it is rather peculiar that in the
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 617
(8/7/01 10:17:15 pm)
Re: If Michael were King
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Oh Cam you really know how to get me going! Don't you!! Between watching the promo and thinking of mud..... I am just a mess!!!!
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
aliencrazed
Registered User
Posts: 10
(8/8/01 4:53:26 pm)
Re: If Michael were King
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I don't know why the e-mail cut me off but I was trying to say wasn't it peculiar in the "Summer of 47" how Michael was the character of Hank who tried to help the aliens escape while Max played the person who sided in with the military cover up.
I think Michael and Max just show different leadership styles. Max is more of a thinker, planner, more passive while Michael's leadership style is "Just Do It"
Men are from earth. Women are from earth. Deal with it! I am a nobody, nobody is perfect, therefore I am perfect.
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 933
(8/8/01 7:24:43 pm)
Re: If Michael were King
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alieancrazed please read through the thread to know what it is about. I don't think who they portrayed in SO'47 has any bearing on this topic, although I loved that ep and Brendan and Jason looked awfully good in uniform.
Hey guys, sorry I haven't been around. Migraine. Need I say more???
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Edited by: Fehr is Fehr at: 8/8/01 7:27:07 pm
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 623
(8/8/01 8:20:38 pm)
Re: If Michael were King
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Fehr Glad to have you back!! Sorry about the headache!!
I agree that "Summer of '47" really has nothing to do with Max and Michael's characters. Because it isn't them! But boy did Brendan look good in that uniform!!! !
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
Brandy
Unregistered User
(8/8/01 8:25:15 pm)
what if Micheal was the actual king?
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I say don't underestimate Max.
I think we'll all be suprized!
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 948
(8/13/01 11:59:12 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Where the heck is everybody???
Cam?
Rach?
Jen?
1dj
Anybody???
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Shilohaura
Registered User
Posts: 201
(8/14/01 12:03:43 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Me thinks they're all taking cold showers!
1dj
Registered User
Posts: 24
(8/14/01 12:17:56 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Ahhhhh that cold shower should last me till I start reading again.
Hey I was going to post about when Max asked Michael how not to think about Liz.....I was going to say that Michael (king ) would of had to learn how to keep his emotions (for women) in check, but I talked myself right out of that one.
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 951
(8/14/01 6:59:01 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Mud!
I just love how creative Michael is. I mean..........MUD!
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Rachishere
Registered User
Posts: 102
(8/14/01 7:18:38 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Hey Fehr,
Sorry I haven't been around lately. I was out of town. How's the new grandbaby?
I have to go back and read what I have missed. See ya later.
Rachishere
Registered User
Posts: 103
(8/14/01 7:54:08 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Wow, I missed alot while I was gone.
This is way OT, but I loved the characters of Jen and Larry. They should bring them back for another episode.
Arista Hanson
Registered User
Posts: 379
(8/15/01 12:02:08 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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You know there's the great fic, that made Maria's middle name be Ursalla, so that really when ever Michael was thinking about MUD he was really thinking about M.U.D.
~Arista~
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 956
(8/15/01 8:11:34 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Hi Rach! I would love to see Jen and Larry again.
Arista that is a cool bit of info on the M.U.D. thing.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Iddy
Registered User
Posts: 24
(8/27/01 5:16:46 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Hey guys!!! I am back.
Actually I never really left, I just having been posting. I've been kind of depressed I miss Rosswell and I don't have any tapes to see re-runs, but well back to the topic at hand. "THE UFO Convention".
Well in my opinion this is an intriguing and confusing episode, at least on my way of thinking. Let me start by stating that I am one of those people that believe that Michael is the king.
In this episode I see Michael as taking charge and protecting their interest and their secret. First time I see that is when he realizes that Larry is going to talk about the shooting at the Crashdown, and that by doing so he will discover them if he by any chance is believed. So therefore he gave him an itch or something to make him look like a lunatic "not a very reliable person" and he acomplished that and the pannel disregards his opinions .
2nd time we see Michael protecting their secret is when he is the one that actually sees Hubbles as a threat, and when he sees Max drive off with Hubbles he follows and saves the day.
Well I'll hope to post soon.
See you,
Iddy
alienmom
Registered User
Posts: 8
(8/27/01 6:20:12 pm)
Re: please continue.....
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i have finally caught up on all the king michael posts (bad computer!! )
i find it exciting! it gives me goosebumps everytime something new is revealed! i'm hooked, i need more, more, more!!
in skin & bones, max even stated, "i am not a king." gets me thinking! can you smell the smoke??
if you can't say something nice, come sit by us!
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 189
(8/27/01 7:56:44 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Iddy you make me so proud. I thought this thread had died. I am so happy to have this thread brought back to the forefront with posts on THE CONVENTION. I have been absent lately as well. I too am going through severe Roswell withdrawls. I have been spending my online time reading fanfic thanks to Jenniferh's coaxing. It is helping my blues some.
THE CONVENTION...I agree totally with your findings, Iddy. There is not much to focus on in this episode, but you have managed to be right on target. Some would argue though that Micheal was acting as a "protector" or second in command. I personally feel he was acting out of leadership instinct. He continued to follow on their quest for the truth while Max what somewhat disoriented by Liz. He did not let his guard down (as a king never should)when it came to Larry or Hubble. Michael is a leader. A little hot headed and impulsive, but he possesses the characteristics of a born leader.
By the way, WELCOME ALIENMOM!!!!!
Ok Gang! It is time we get back on track with our king posts. BLIND DATE is the next episode. I do not remember any key clues in this episode regarding the king, but I am going to review it again and get back to you guys. So until then...tell me your thoughts...
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 706
(8/27/01 8:06:07 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Cam I knew it would come back!!!
Iddy So glad you are back!! We have missed you!
I watched "The Convention" just the other night cause I love the way Michael helps Maria and Amy... and I love it when he says mud!! I too felt that he took charge and did a mighty fine job!!
So "Blind Date"... well he definitely knew his stuff regarding the maps and figuring it all out.. I will watch again and pay close attention to any kingly details!!
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1012
(8/27/01 10:08:16 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Happy happy happy! So good to see this back on the first page.
Hi Iddy. Welcome Alienmom. Hi Cam. Hi Jen. Now......where is Rach??? Come out come out! We miss you!
Well guys I have only seen the Convention once. It's the only one I don't have on tape. Blew a tire that night! A friend did bring over a copy that she got a few months ago, but it isn't a very good copy so I couldn't make a copy for myself. But Blind Date is a huge king ep!!!!!!! I have that one, hell I have all of them, except the Convention........ Gotta do something about that! Gonna track down someone and get me a copy PDQ!
I will watch Blind Date tomorrow and post on it. I love that ep.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Edited by: Fehr is Fehr at: 8/27/01 10:10:48 pm
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 716
(8/28/01 7:51:11 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Ask and ye shall recieve!! consider it done Fehr.. you should have told me before.. I am just a tape making junky babe!!
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
Shilohaura
Registered User
Posts: 251
(8/28/01 8:01:55 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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OT - Max & Kyle were Sooooo Cuuuuute in Blind Date! I could watch that over & over & over....! Carry on, now, with your Kingly discussions. I await your next clues.
Iddy
Registered User
Posts: 25
(8/28/01 1:26:44 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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"Blind Date"
In blind date we see a self center "cute" Max, that all he thinks about is his relationship with Liz.
At the beginning of the episode their is a scene at the Crashdown cafe with Michael, Max and Isabel.
MICHAEL: All right, look. We know the cave painting is a map.
MAX: Michael, we don't know anything.
MICHAEL: I feel it, ok? I mean, it was clear in my hallucination.
Here we see again how they show us that Michael its having more memories or dream like images of his planet and what they are all about. It is important for him to find out all he can about their previous life. He feels incomplete and needs to know. While Max all he cares and think about are his problems with Liz.
Also I feel like in this episode we see hints of the relationship that maybe existed between Isabel and Michael. She shows a lot of respect and concern for his needs to find out this 4th allien and what it means to them.
I love the part where Isabel decides no to go to the concert to acompany Michael when he says he think he figured out the map.
In the scene when Isabel and Michael first got to the library and he explains his theory of the map to her. We again see Michael as in the leadership role. He feels they need this 4th allien to find out the whole thruth about them selves. He can't count on Max, 'cause all he thinks about is Liz and his problems with her. So he tries to figure everything out by himself.
MICHAEL: That means something, isabel. It's right here on the map. Look, this is the constellation I saw in my dream. It's Aries, the ram.
(Isabel gives Michael a questioning look)
MICHAEL: I looked it up. And this is the symbol Nasedo left us at the cave. If you take a map of Roswell and you position it properly when Aries is directly overhead, which is in April by the way, all the rest of these symbols take on locations. And this one's right here at the library.
ISABEL: How'd you know how to do all that , Michael?
MICHAEL: I just Knew.
Here again we see Michael as the one with the more information, the onlyone with the knowledge and the inside in how to figure out the signs that gives them clues about their past, and what they were. (I repeated my self a little here, but I felt it necessary in order for you guys to cath my point)
It is my opinion that Michael shows leadership, responsibility, and knowledge all thruout this episode. I also think this episode gave us an inside of the kind of relationship that existed between Isabel and Michael. ( I will Like to think that Michael was the king and Isabel his queen...... who knows )
Well those are my thoughts for now. Let me know what you guys think and what other conclusions you came up with that proves our theory.
Thanks for putting up with this long post. I look foward to reading on.
Bye for now,
Iddy
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 724
(8/28/01 9:37:17 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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This epy was an perfect example of Michael's Kingly abilities. I think Iddy said it all... except no no on the Iz thing!! I love Iz and I could see it... if Maria wasn't so right for him!! She has been his salvation...
"I wish more things had made her cry. And I wish I could have swum just once in the sea of her mermaid tears, where all the rockstars should've drowned." "RAVE" Francesca Lia Block
Iddy
Registered User
Posts: 26
(8/29/01 10:18:38 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Jenn.
I agree with you on the Michael and Maria Thing. I want them to be together. They make a beutiful couple.
What I meant About Iz and Michael is that on blind date we could see that they had a very close relationship in their other life, either as brother or sister or husband and wife. But that doesnot mean that I would like for him and Iz to be a couple.
Maria is Michael's salvation, she is the reason why he has grown so much and learn a lot. I think that Maria is what Michael was always looking for, someone to be there for him unconditionally, but at the same time challenges him and help him be better. I don't know if I get my point across is hard to translate in my mind to english.
Camm, Fehr where are you!!!!!!!!!
Bye for now,
Iddy
PS. I need somebody to email me and tell me how to post pictures and bold the hand writing Please.!!!!
Arista Hanson
Registered User
Posts: 467
(8/29/01 12:03:14 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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I totally agree Iddy!
And thank you for bring up the thread again, I was glad someone did it, I was thinking of doing the episode reactions, but I didn't think i could do it all that good. You do them very good, thank you.
~Arista~
Where is this place and why I'm I in a handbasket?
Page 5
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1020
(8/31/01 11:13:49 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Iddy! I am here!
Just been a busy crazy week. My boss's dad had a heart attack and I've pretty much had to do everything at the studio all week. In no way is that a complaint. I am more than happy to do whatever I can to help her during this terrible and trying time.
I did watch Blind Date, again........ But it is late and I am so tired. I'm gonna be online a little more this weekend, hopefully and will get my post about it done and up here.
I will say Iddy did a great job with her post. Right on the money.
Where is Cam???
Has Rach left us?
Hi Jenn. I miss talking to you.
Hey Arista.
***Quite an experience to live in fear. That's what it is to be a slave.....***
brew22
Registered User
Posts: 184
(9/1/01 3:06:10 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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i haven't read this entire thread, but i believe michael is the king! i just watched balance and thought it was funny when maria called max "Prince Charming" another arrow poiting to the answer.
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.
Edited by: brew22 at: 9/1/01 5:42:35 pm
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 192
(9/2/01 9:31:37 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Air Date Episode Pictorial Screencaps Transcripts Quotes
10/09/01 (#301) Busted!
10/16/01 (#302) Michael, the Guys, and the Great
Snapple Caper
10/23/01 (#303) Significant Others
10/30/01 (#304) Secrets & Lies
OK. So I am cruising the Crashdown board re-reading the transcripts so that I may post on this thread and I stumble across this. WOW! They already have the first four episodes named! I am so excited! October 9th is taking entirely too long to get here. ANYWAY...back to the topic at hand.
BLIND DATE...Several incidents happen in this episode that imply Micheal as the king. The scene with him, Isabel & Max in the Crashdown is just the beginning of many...
(Michael is discussing Nasedo with Max and Isabel at the Crashdown)
MICHAEL: All right, look. We know the cave painting is a map.
MAX: Michael, we don't know anything.
MICHAEL: I feel it, ok? I mean, it was clear in my hallucination.
MAX: Hallucination would be the key word there.
ISABEL: Let him talk, Max. What's wrong with you today?
MAX: Why would you invest yourself in something that you know isn't going to work out?
MICHAEL: Don't bring your personal problems into this, Maxwell. It's too important.
MAX: I'm talking about the search you're on. Trying to find someone who could possibly hurt us if we ever find them.
MICHAEL: The 4th alien is not a killer. He's one of us.
MAX: You heard Hubble tell us about the other victims. About the handprints...
MICHAEL: No, I heard a crazy man. Tell him. Tell him we gotta find this guy.
(Michael looks at Isabel hoping to get some support from her, but she doesn't say anything)
MICHAEL: Fine. Both of you sit here with your cherry colas and your high school fantasies. I'm going to find him.
Micheal does not want to give up on his quest. He has an internal pull that forces him to investigate the cave drawings, the possibility of another alien and a route home.
(Michael knocks on Isabel's window)
ISABEL: Come in.
MICHAEL: Hey.
ISABEL: What're you doing?
MICHAEL: I think I've figured it out. I think I can read the map. Come on, I'll show you.
ISABEL: But what about the concert? Alex got us tickets.
MICHAEL: Well, it's either the concert or discovering where we come from.
ISABEL: Well, what about Max? Shouldn't we at least...
MICHAEL: What about Max? Last I heard, he didn't seem too interested, remember?
ISABEL: He's just worried, Michael. He's worried about you.
MICHAEL: Yeah, look, the only father I need is the one out there waiting for us to find him. Let's go.
Although Isabel is torn between Max & Michael, she follows Michael. Where Max is cautious, Michael is determined. He is not afraid of the unknown. He faces it head on, showing a fierce leadership quality.
(Isabel and Michael take Max's jeep and drive to the library)
ISABEL: I think this is as close as you've ever come to the library, Michael.
MICHAEL: That means something, Isabel. It's right here on the map. Look. This is the constellation I saw in my dream. It's Aries, the ram.
(Isabel gives Michael a questioning look)
MICHAEL: I looked it up. And this is the symbol Nasedo left us at the cave. If you take a map of Roswell and you position it properly when Aries is directly overhead, which is in April by the way, all the rest of these symbols take on locations. And this one's right here at the library.
ISABEL: How'd you know how to do all that, Michael?
MICHAEL: I just knew.
ISABEL: I don't think we should be doing this.
MICHAEL: Isabel, he sent us a signal. We gotta send him one back. This is how we're gonna find him.
ISABEL: Yeah, but what if he's...
MICHAEL: What if he's the killer? There's only one way to find out.
Again with the insight. Michael possesses knowledge that the others do not. He figures out that a signal is needed to contact Nasedo. And even though they may encounter a killer, he is not discouraged. They need to know the truth, no matter how ugly or unpleasant it may be.
(Michael is pouring gasoline on some ropes that are lying on the grass outside the library)
ISABEL: This is vandalism.
MICHAEL: It's not like we can't clean it up.
ISABEL: Are you sure about this?
MICHAEL: More sure than I've ever been about anything in my life.
ISABEL: I just don't want you to get hurt, Michael.
MICHAEL: Isabel, I told you Max is wrong. Nasedo's the only one we have.
ISABEL: We still have each other, isn't that enough? I'm just...I'm just afraid that you won't find what you're looking for. Or that maybe you will and you won't need Max or me anymore.
MICHAEL: That's not possible, ok?
(Michael lights the ropes that have been soaked with gasoline and they burn in the shape of one of the symbols from the cave)
I enjoy the practicality of Michael. While Isabel worries about the law, Michael explains his lack of concern. He has a higher purpose, who cares about the law? Besides they can clean it up themselves. Geez! No harm, no foul.
Isabel is worried that Michael will not need her or Max anymore once he discovers what he is looking for. Kind of like a king not needing his counsel. I find this issue interesting. Isabel is more frightened of not being the important, needed figure in Michael's life more that she is in them encountering a killer. Why is that? Could it be that her & Max's influence on Michael gives them a sense of purpose and if that is stripped away then they are nothing? Michael is the loner, he is the risk taker and he is the driving force for answers. And all Isabel & Max seem to preach is caution, smothering Michael's abilities. Most of the time I find them killing his dreams, not supporting them. And I think this particular incident tells me why. Fear.
(At the library, Michael and Isabel aren't successful in getting Nasedo to appear)
ISABEL: We can't just leave this here.
MICHAEL: I know. Can you...
(Isabel uses her power to get rid of the symbol burned on the grass)
MICHAEL: You think I'm stupid, don't you?
ISABEL: No. Not stupid.
MICHAEL: Just forget it. He's not gonna come.
ISABEL: Maybe not tonight.
MICHAEL: No, not ever. No one ever comes for me.
ISABEL: I will. Whenever you need me.
This shows Michael's vulnerability. He wants to belong so badly. He feels foolish that his plan did not work and expresses his need of someone. He is determined, but insecure. And I think he lacks the support and true understanding of his friends. They seem to mostly dismiss his ideals and instincts.
(Nasedo leaves another "sign" for Max, Michael, and Isabel - he starts a fire shaped in one of the alien symbols and drops a picture of the three of them into it. Scene fades out as he walks away)
But it turns out Michael was right.
OK. To sum this up, Micheal interprets the map from the cave, he follows his instincts and communicates with Nasedo successfully (although unknowingly). He is driven by an internal force to seek out the truth. He shows his leadership skills and vulnerability. He is a king, with all the power and insight and insecurity that it entails.
So the next episode is INDEPENDENCE DAY, one of my favs. Love the M/M scene. It is a candy clanner's dream. So until then, tell me some more of your thoughts.
Edited by: Camlaw at: 9/3/01 12:07:14 pm
brew22
Registered User
Posts: 194
(9/3/01 7:19:39 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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CAMLAW i just watched that eppy, too. I agree with many things you said. i have this feeling, and i don't know if this has been expressed before anywhere, that on antar, max ursurped the throne from michael. yes i believe that they are opposing forces and may be why courtney was trying to get involved with michael. i think i remember reading some time ago about others questioning a skins alliance with a specific faction of antarians. well, i don't know just some of my goofy thoughts.
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1040
(9/3/01 10:57:07 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Way late and I and I am way tired, but I wanted to pop in and say...........
This ep is the one that makes me question wether Isabel is Max or Michael's sister? She came across as very sisterly to me. I had noticed before that she treats Michael more like a brother than she does Max, but it was this ep that made it seems more so. Also the line from Michael to her that the only father I need is the one out there waiting for us to find him.
I think that perhaps Iz/Vilandra didn't betray them back home. That it was Tess/Ava...........
Going to bed now.............
***Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1041
(9/3/01 11:00:13 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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and I and I am........
I am I am.............
Yup!
I'm tired alright!
***Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Edited by: Fehr is Fehr at: 9/3/01 11:02:42 pm
brew22
Registered User
Posts: 196
(9/4/01 3:00:04 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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yeah, and when the mommygram comes, she doesn't say "You MAx are the king. You Isabel are married to Michael." She's very vague which is a great device for causing confusion.
I used to be indecisive, but now I'm not so sure.
alienmom
Registered User
Posts: 22
(9/5/01 9:53:31 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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just a couple of things;
cam, we assume it was nasedo dropping the picture, but we don't actually see the person. could be someone else, who, i have no clue.
i have also thought iz was very protective of michael in a big-sissy sorta way. she feels the need to look after him maybe because when they were seperated, and she got the all american family and he got .... hank. i never saw the spark, the passion, the lust, between them even when they were having the baby dreams. but the closeness, caring and love is there in a family way.
my daughter & i have been mulling this over. when fehr relayed the discussion of the king theroy with JK and described the look on his face, was it suprise and shock that it was figured out (she sited many obvious clues)? or was it a look of inspiration? with fehr planting the king seed (siting many obvious clues). can we say, new story line?! hum...makes you wonder.
is it october yet??!!
if you can't say something nice, come sit by us!
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1050
(9/8/01 9:55:14 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Sorry I've been MIA for a couple of days..........my boss's father passed away. The studio has been busy and it's all on me, so.................But it'as the weekend and hopefully I can get caught up on the happenings on the board.
Alienmom the thing with KKB.........I didn't even broach the theory with him. I sighted no details or evidence. We were having a conversation about a few different things. My tattoo, the actions of some of the more unstable fans, ect.........As we were about to go back in to the main room of the party I just decided to shoot straight from the hip, cuz....well........that's the kinda girl I am........and I just said it as a statement. "I know I am one in a million, but..........I think Michael is the king." He absolutely stiffened up, froze, looked like a deer in headlights. He was thinking, you could see he was pondering what to say. Then he said, kinda slowly, "Well.....it will be interesting when we get there." That was it. Nothing more was said, by me or him and we went back into the party. Now the thing about this that is intriguing is that all weekend everyone was bombarding him with questions about the couples, or theories about what was going to happen........What will happen with Max and Liz? Will Michael and Maria stay together? Are ALex and Isabel going to get back together? Tess and Kyle make a good couple, they should be together. Amy and Jim are going to get married. Ect, ect, ect. He had very well rehearsed, pat answers to all those types of questions and theories. The thing that stands out in my mind was just how taken aback he was at my statement. I don't know if it was becasue it's the truth, or if I had just given him an excellent idea........but either way, he was surprised and didn't have a rehearsed pat answer.
***Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.....***
jennifehr
Registered User
Posts: 804
(9/8/01 3:54:38 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Kind of makes you wonder huh!!!
Maybe something is up Mel..... or like it was said before... you may have planted the seed!!! So are you gonna get some kind kick back... and will you share him with me!!!
"Remember what happened to the man who suddenly got everything he ever wanted.... he lived happily ever after."
alienmom
Registered User
Posts: 39
(9/9/01 12:16:51 am)
Re: an apology for fehr
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i am so sorry, fehr for screwing up the information. i should have reread that post and quoted it verbatim. no excuse for my laziness. thank you for setting the record straight. please accecpt my sincere apology. it won't happen again.
michelle
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1053
(9/9/01 12:36:19 am)
Re: an apology for fehr
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Alienmom what are you apologizing for????? I hope I didn't do something to upset you? Are you upset? I'm not upset. It's all good.
***Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.....***
alienmom
Registered User
Posts: 41
(9/9/01 12:50:16 am)
Re: an apology for fehr
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you, upset me, are you kidding?? my skin is too thick for that. fehr, i'm not upset and i don't feel you were upset at me. i felt the need to accecpt the responibility of my mistake and clear it up.
if you can't say something nice, come sit by us!
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1057
(9/9/01 1:51:19 am)
Re: an apology for fehr
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I'm glad we're not upset.
And I'm sorry to keep beating a dead horse, but.............
"It's Graceland and you're Elvis!"
What the hell else could that possibly mean???????
***Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 196
(9/9/01 2:00:19 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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INDEPENDENCE DAY...Part 1...This is my favorite episode. I love the tenderness between Michael & Maria. And I may just end up concentrating a little bit more on that scene just because I love it so much. But here goes my observations...
We begin with Liz & Maria talking in the hallway at school. Max comes up to Liz to talk, but it interrupted by Isabel.
ISABEL: Hey. Something's up with Michael. He's acting weird.
MAX: Weirder than usual?
ISABEL: Yeah, no, I just saw him at the other end of the hall, and he just went the other way.
MAX: Well, maybe he didn't see you.
ISABEL: No, he was ignoring me. He practically ran into the bathroom. Will you just go in there and see what's going on?
MAX: Right.
ISABEL: Thank you.
Someone had mentioned Isabel acting as a sister to Michael and I had not really noticed it until this episode. Maybe because I was so blinded by the possibility of her being his wife in a former life that I never thought of them as being like siblings. Anyway, Max goes in search of answers for Isabel.
(Max goes into the boys bathroom, where Michael is trying to avoid face contact with Max)
MAX: Hey, Michael. You all right?
MICHAEL: Yeah, I'm fine.
MAX: 'Cause, uh, Isabel thought...
MICHAEL: Can't a guy get some privacy?
(The class bell rings)
MAX: I'll wait.
MICHAEL: Max, just get outta here.
MAX: You can't stay in there all day.
MICHAEL: Max, I'm serious. Just leave me alone. I'll be out in a second.
MAX: Fine.
(Max walks over to the door, pushes it open, and lets it close by itself. He then waits for Michael to come out of the stall and is immediately concerned when he sees Michael's black eye)
This is the first physical evidence of Michael's miserable home life. Everyone knows his life is not the ideal, but I think this is the first time they had proof of how crummy it really is.
(Max and Michael are discussing Michael's black eye by some train tracks)
MAX: How did it happen?
MICHAEL: He was drunk.
MAX: Hank? Has it happened before?
MICHAEL: Couple times. This was the worst, though. Never left a mark.
MAX: Michael...
MICHAEL: Don't. I don't want you feeling sorry for me. I don't want anyone feeling sorry for me.
MAX: Everyone's gonna ask.
MICHAEL: Not if it's gone. Fix it. Please. I tried, but I...
MAX: And what about the next one?
MICHAEL: There won't be a next one.
MAX: Michael, you don't have to protect him. He's not even your real father.
MICHAEL: No kidding.
(Max restores Michael's skin, taking away the black eye)
MICHAEL: I don't want anyone else to know about this.
MAX: Michael, you can't just...
MICHAEL: Maxwell, it's between you and me.
So of course, what does Max do?
(Max and Isabel sit at a table and discuss Michael)
ISABEL: Are you saying what I think you're saying?
MAX: Calm down, Isabel. I promised him I wouldn't tell anyone.
ISABEL: Then why did you tell me?
MAX: Cuz I'm worried about him. I don't...I don't know what to do.
ISABEL: Ok, Max, you can't just tell me something like that and expect me to do nothing.
(Michael comes in and overhears the last part of what Isabel says to Max)
MICHAEL: Hey.
MAX: Hey.
ISABEL: Hey.
(Michael looks at Max and Isabel for awhile, his eyes probing the looks on their faces)
MICHAEL: You told her.
(Michael gets up and starts to leave)
ISABEL: Michael!
ISABEL: What are you gonna do? Pretend it didn't happen? You have to do something.
MICHAEL: Like what?
ISABEL: Tell someone. Report him.
MICHAEL: Yeah, who? Valenti? Yeah, that'd be a smart idea, wouldn't it?
ISABEL: Max told me this has happened before.
MAX: Look, I'm sorry, but I had to tell her.
MICHAEL: Look, everybody's got problems. If it wasn't this, it'd be another thing. I'm a big boy. I can handle it.
ISABEL: Maybe you could talk to my dad. He's a lawyer. He could help. He once told me about this...this case he had where he helped a minor get permission to live on his own.
MICHAEL: Forget it, Iz. The last thing we need is for me to go to the courts and bring all this attention to us.
ISABEL: Well, if he hurts you again, Michael...
MICHAEL: He won't.
ISABEL: You could use your powers.
MICHAEL: I had to stop myself last night. I can't control my powers like you and Max. You guys know that. Especially in the state of mind I'm in. If I did anything, I'd probably kill him.
ISABEL: Well, all I know is you can't go back there. So stay with us. At least until Hank calms down.
MICHAEL: Fine, if it's gonna shut you up.
(Michael leaves)
So Michael proceeds to stay the night with the Evans' clan. What happens? Well, he goes through a brief interrogation by Isabel's father. His dinner manners are corrected and his game playing skills are challenged. He feels completely out of place and awkward. He eventually leaves and heads back home to Hank. He gets into an arguement with Hank in front of Max & Isabel. Hank pulls a gun. Michael uses his powers.
(Max, Isabel, and Michael run off, leaving Hank dazed)
MICHAEL: Congratulations, you made it worse. Now he knows.
ISABEL: Michael, Hank was so drunk, he's not gonna know what he saw and he sure as hell isn't gonna remember it in the morning.
MICHAEL: Isabel, I can't go back there.
ISABEL: Good.
MICHAEL: You just don't get it, do you? I know Hank's a jerk, but that's the only thing I had, and now you guys screwed that up for good.
MAX: Look, just come back with us for now.
MICHAEL: Max, for how long? I mean, 2 days, 3 days...what's that gonna do? I...
MAX: We'll figure something out.
MICHAEL: Max, I don't belong there. I don't belong there, I don't belong here, I don't belong anywhere.
ISABEL: Michael, we understand why...
MICHAEL: No, you don't. Isabel, you don't understand.
ISABEL: So you got a raw deal, no one's saying that you didn't. But, God, Michael, you finally have a chance to change it. Would it kill you to ask for help, just once in your life?
MICHAEL: Yeah, you know what? It would.
MAX: Where are you going?
MICHAEL: Doesn't matter.
ISABEL: Michael, wait.
So where does our king turn for comfort?
(Maria is combing her hair. She goes to the window and looks outside and sees Michael standing in the rain. She thinks she's probably hallucinating so she takes some "grief relief", looks up, and sees Michael still standing there. Michael walks over to her window)
MARIA: What are you doing out there? No, you can't come in. No. I know why you're here. All right, I know what your plan is, I know what you want, but it's not gonna work this time, mister, ok, no matter what you say. My answer is no. No, no, no, no, no.
(Maria has let Michael come in and he is dripping wet and shivering)
MARIA: God, you could get pneumonia. Here, take your shirt off. Hold on. You're shivering.
(Maria wipes away a tear from Michael's cheeks)
MARIA: Come here. Shh, it's ok. You don't have to tell me, it's ok.
(Michael starts to cry as Maria hugs him closely)
That's right. He turns to Maria. She provides him with the unconditional love and comfort he is unable to get from Max & Isabel. She does not demand answers or expect him to act a certain way. She just holds him, loves him and lets him feel how is feeling without any criticism or lecture. This scene is so brief but yet so unbelievably touching. It shows the bond Michael & Maria share that is just as deep and soulful as Liz & Max's. I think it was this scene here that made me a candy clanner. ANYWAY, the morning comes and Amy freaks out to see her little girl in bed with our king. After a brief lecture and a reassurance that only sleep occured, Amy lets the situation drop for now.
Stay tuned for part 2 on this post...
Arista Hanson
Registered User
Posts: 554
(9/9/01 2:02:16 am)
Re: an apology for fehr
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Ok, this is what my sister asked me, in EOTW Madame Vivian said that Max is very important, if Michael was king wouldn't she say that about him? Well no. It comes down to this quote, "All that we are is a result of we have thought." (or something like that I don't remember) If Max thinks he is king and everyone in Roswell land thinks he's the king, then he is going to be king and his importance will be that of a king. Does that make sense?
~Arista~
Where is this place and why I'm I in a handbasket?
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1059
(9/9/01 2:22:23 am)
Re: an apology for fehr
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Well Arista all I can say to that is.................
Madame Vivian was a crock! She said Max would choose love. She said Maria only had 48 hours with Michael. She said Alex would never have Isabel. To tell the truth, I think Vivian had it all ass backwards. Liz had only 48 hours with Max after they saw her. Eventually Max settled for Tess, not love. Isabel fell in love with Alex. Michael choose love over going home..........
Think about it.
And no matter what anyone thinks, royal blood is royal blood. If Michael is the true king(and I believe he is) he is so by birth. Max is part of the royal four through marraige. Just because they think Max is the king, doesn't make him the king.
***Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.....***
Edited by: Fehr is Fehr at: 9/9/01 2:26:25 am
Camlaw
Registered User
Posts: 197
(9/9/01 10:49:14 am)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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INDEPENDENCE DAY...Part 2...We left off with Michael going to Maria for comfort and Amy discovering him there the next morning. Michael flees. At school that morning he is pulled from class & brought down to the Sheriff for questioning.
(Michael is sitting in Sheriff Valenti's office)
SHERIFF: Neighbors heard gunshots.
MICHAEL: I don't know anything about that.
SHERIFF: But you were there last night?
MICHAEL: Went home to get some stuff.
SHERIFF: What time was that?
MICHAEL: Um...does it matter?
SHERIFF: You were the last person to see him.
MICHAEL: What do you mean, I was "the last person to see him"?
SHERIFF: I called the plant. He never showed up for work.
MICHAEL: Maybe he's passed out somewhere. I don't keep track of him.
SHERIFF: Neighbors also said they heard an argument. And then, later, more sounds. Screaming. Crying. Tortured sounds, like an animal. Almost inhuman, they said.
MICHAEL: What are you talking about?
SHERIFF: Where were you, son?
MICHAEL: Out.
You have got to admit the courage Michael has here. He is not frightened nor intimidated by the situation. And honestly he has no reason to be. The Sheriff never really has scared Michael. Max may cringe at the sight of the Sheriff, but Michael challenges him. I see that as a trait of his kingly personality. The "you have no authority over me" trait. Which I find he tends to use on everyone, but without much success when it comes to Maria. Cause in a way, she has the same trait. And it is shown here with this little scene.
(Isabel walks into the Crashdown)
ISABEL: Have you guys seen Michael?
MARIA: Maybe.
ISABEL: Come on, Maria, you have to tell me. It's really important.
MARIA: Well, if it's that important, then you tell me. I'm worried about him, too.
ISABEL: I can't.
MARIA: Ditto.
ISABEL: All right. Michael's in trouble.
LIZ: What...what kind of trouble?
ISABEL: It's Hank. He's, um...he's been hurting him, and Max and I are trying to help.
MARIA: Oh, my God, Isabel.
ISABEL: Michael made us promise not to say anything.
MARIA: He was with me last night. All night.
LIZ: What? He spent the night, Maria? What happened to "no"?
MARIA: He never told me what was wrong. We just slept. And then...in the morning, my mom came in, and he took off, and I haven't seen him since.
I love how Maria challenges Isabel here. I do not care who you are, I am not saying anything until you divulge your information first." Maria is perfect for Michael. She is just as bold and just as stubborn as he is. She is his equal and even surpasses his authority on some levels which to me proves that she is the true soulmate of Michael. ANYWAY, back to the topic at hand.
So Max comes in and informs everyone that Michael is with Valenti. Maria goes home and asks her mother for help. I want to point out here how much faith Amy has in Maria. Not many mothers I know would go and bail their child's boyfriend/girlfriend out of jail. She really does trust Maria, and maybe it is because of her hippie beliefs, but I think she really gives Maria the room to grow. There is another scene in season two where Amy shows her concern, but accepts her daughter's impromptu road trip. If any one of the parents needs to discover the truth about the pod squad this season it should be Amy.
Oops! I went off topic again. I am sorry...So Amy goes to the Sheriff and explains where Michael was last night. The Sheriff releases Michael and he meets back up with Isabel &
Max.
MAX: So, everything's ok?
MICHAEL: Oh, yeah, great.
ISABEL: Michael, about Hank being missing, you didn't...you didn't do anything to him, did you?
MICHAEL: No. What...you thought...
ISABEL: No no.
MAX: So, what did Valenti say?
MICHAEL: Well, he said he was gonna find me a new foster situation. Not a home. Situation.
MAX: I'm sure he meant...
MICHAEL: No matter what home I get, it's a substitute for the real one.
MAX: Michael, you can't just run away.
MICHAEL: Watch me.
ISABEL: Where are you supposed to go?
MICHAEL: Anywhere but here. You two can stay in your nice little world with your pot roast and your monopoly games, cuz it's pretty clear to me you're not interested in finding our real home. But I'm going to. I'm gonna find Nasedo. He's my family.
ISABEL: And what are we? You want to know what I think, Michael? I think it's time you either put up or shut up.
MICHAEL: Very poetic, Isabel.
ISABEL: You act like a 5-year-old. When are you going to grow up and stop blaming everybody else?
MICHAEL: Is that what you think, Max?
MAX: I think it's not safe out there. I think Nasedo is dangerous, Michael.
MICHAEL: You don't know that.
MAX: You heard what Hubble said. He's a killer, a shape-shifter, and he's out there. He could be anyone. Now, we need to stick together now more than ever.
MICHAEL: You're wrong, Max.
ISABEL: Go on and run, Michael, it's what you do best.
I find Isabel being unreasonable here. I know she is just reacting to Michael's descison to leave, but she aprroaches him all wrong. Instead of being understanding of his situation, she pushes him to fix it. She has never been abused so she cannot understand the emotional gray areas. She sees things as black & white. She does not see the feelings of helplessness, utter frustration and insecurity. Max tries to explain it to Isabel, but she is blind. Max's approach to Michael a little more subtle.
(Max goes to the trailer park in search of Michael and walks in on him as he's packing)
MAX: Packing?
MICHAEL: You could call it that. Everything I have fits in this bag.
MAX: You have me. You have Isabel.
MICHAEL: Say goodbye, Max.
MAX: I can't.
MICHAEL: We'll keep in touch, all right?
MAX: It's not good enough.
MICHAEL: Well, it's gonna have to be, all right? So say goodbye.
MAX: I can't.
MICHAEL: Max...
MAX: I know what you're scared of, Michael.
MICHAEL: No, you don't.
MAX: You keep telling me how lucky I am...to have a great home, great parents. But in one way, it's harder for me, because when I screw up, I have no excuses. But you, you can do and say anything you want because you have Hank, and you can blame it on that. But what happens without him? It'll all be on you, that's what.
MICHAEL: Well, leave it up to me to still screw it up, huh?
MAX: It's ok, Michael, because if you do, we'll all still be there for you. Maybe you have to start thinking about someone other than yourself, Michael. The 3 of us belong together. There's a reason that we're together. We're family. So, go if you want to, but no matter where or how far, we will always be connected. Isabel and I wanted you to have this. It means nothing without you.
MICHAEL: See ya.
(Michael takes off)
In a truck that he has hitched a ride in, Michael opens the package Max gives him to find the healing stones. He is flooded with images and feelings he had not considered. So ulitmately he goes back to Roswell. He asks for help and eventually is granted emanciption.
As I re-read this transcript I wondered why Max & Isabel were so oblivious to the abuse Michael was experiencing. Did they just think Hank was neglectful? It never occurred to them that Hank could have been physically abusive? And why is it that the Evans parents know so little about Micheal? He is thier children's best friend in the whole world and they have not bothered to get to know anything about him?
OK, back to the topic at hand. I keep drifting off the subject of this thread for some reason. I guess because this is one of my favorite episodes, I tend to analyze everything. ANYWAY, Michael's kingly traits surface briefly here & there. The scene where they are playing Monopoly and Michael challenges Isabel's dad in regards to the rules. He is not afraid to speak his mind. He shows his defiant nature. Rules have no authority over a king.
The scene between him and the Sheriff speaks volumes. Some would argue that he is just merely a typical teen who defies the law. He does not disrespect the law as much as he feels no intimidation by it. This is not the first time he has come face to face with the Sheriff and challenged his authority. I love his fearlessness. It is a quality that I think comes from his royal essence.
And then at the end when Michael returns to Roswell and asks for help to be emancipated. He has taken charge of his life. He does not see the asking for help as a sign of weakness anymore and he embarks on the challenge of being self sufficent. He leaves Isabel and Max in awe by his superior personal strentgh. Where Max has a complete melt down later on in the show when things become impossible, Michael just accepts it, embraces it, and finds a way to handle it stoicly.
OK. Next episode is SEXUAL HEALING. Oh yeah! Can't wait to tackle that episode. Hee hee hee. But until then, tell me yours thoughts.
Arista Hanson
Registered User
Posts: 558
(9/9/01 6:28:54 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Ferh-I was under the impression that If Fmax hadn't showed up all of her predictions would have came true.
Well actually it doesn't matter who was born king, if everyone thinks max is king then he is going to have the responsibly and power of a king. Also a king is who ever is on the thrown, as the army, and control over government that would be neither Michael or Max, that would be Kivar.
~Arista~
Where is this place and why I'm I in a handbasket?
Fehr is Fehr
Moderator
Posts: 1063
(9/9/01 6:45:01 pm)
Re: What if Michael was the actual king? #4
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Kivar has the throne, yes, but taken by force. Kings are not voted in. They are born to it or they take it by any means available. Sometimes marrying into a royal family and murdering whoever is in the way of the throne. This topic is about who is really the king. The TRUE king. The king by bloodright. Not who anyone on the show thinks is king or who will end up being the king.
***Quite an experience to live in fear, isn't it? That's what it is to be a slave.....***
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