xmag 0 4-18-2006 10:29 AM

*RBI # 5 : The sci-fi in Roswell* I don't remember the title of the previous thread. But it's there that we can discuss the plots, questions about the stories or the sci-fi of Roswell. Like, how does Max heal people ? Why couldn't he heal grandma Claudia ?

Kathy W 0 4-18-2006 09:54 PM
Hey, xmag! Good question about healing and Grandma Claudia. Story-wise, I'm wondering if there were just too many things wrong with Grandma, or alternately, if Max wasn't aware of what he was capable of. Reality-wise, I don't think the writing team knew where they wanted to take the healing ability yet. I have more questions. For example, Max was supposed to be the only one who healed, to the point where Michael couldn't heal his own black eye....yet Michael healed River Dog's ankle. And in the Pilot, when Max jumps up to go to Liz, did Michael know that Max was going to heal her, and if so, how? Had Max healed before? His ability to heal didn't seem to come as a shock to Michael and Isabel. Questions, questions. :D

shapeshifter 0 4-18-2006 11:20 PM
I think I recall Max saying he was able to heal Liz because it wasn't her time yet. Trying to heal the old guy in the 3rd season didn't have a very pleasant outcome. When Max, in an early episode, was trying to explain things to Liz, he said that "we" can manipulate matter, and then he did the trick with the clay sculpture. So they all knew they could do that. But just like I could potentially have learned to play the violin, but never did, so Michael was never going to be a great healer. But it's more than that, because in the cancer ward, Michael wished he could have helped Max heal the kids. But then maybe he just didn't have enough self confidence and practice. Healing River Dog's ankle is a lot less complicated than removing cancer from a body.

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Originally Posted by *Kathy W*
...Reality-wise, I don't think the writing team knew where they wanted to take the healing ability yet.

I agree. And it's kind of cool to think of the character development and maturity as an expression of where the writers did choose to go with things--even though some may not have cared for the direction. :ufo:

Misha 0 4-18-2006 11:22 PM
Well, here's a very interesting toppic!! I might stick around :D Healing... there's a lot I've been thinking about that. These are just sort of random ideas, so let's see if they make sense ;) First, I don't think Max knew he was *healing* Liz in /Pilot/. When Liz confronts him later on with her list of questions, the thing goes like this:

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from ************** MAX: We can connect with people, as uh, you know. We can manipulate molecular structures, and...we can.... LIZ: Wait, what does that mean? [Max goes to a clay sculpture on a nearby table and moves his hand in front of it, the shape changes] MAX: That's, uh, that's how I healed you

So, as far as Max was concerned, he hadn't used a unique healing ability, he had used his very "normal" manipulation of molecular structures. When he tells Liz that he's not God,

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MAX: Liz, when I saved you, it was because you were shot, and there was a bullet in you. Something was happening to you that wasn't supposed to happen. It was before your time. But I can't just heal people. I'm not God.

(Um... actually Max, you *can* just heal people... :look: ) So, it seems like Max really didn't think of it as healing, at least not till that point. If Michael and Isabel thought it like that, maybe Michael assumed that was what Max was going to do. And maybe some form of healing actually can be done by manipulating molecular structures. I remember back in the day that some theorized that their powers were abilities that they all had, but in less degree. They compared it to drawing: We all can draw, just that some can do it really well, and some should stay away from all pencils and ink for the sake of humanity... :look: That way you can explain why Michael was able to heal the ankle, and why Tess was able to heal Max in /Ask Not/, though it may also imply that healing a black eyes was impossible to Michael because it couldn't be done in the same way as an ankle... Or maybe his own emotional state didn't allow it. This brings the question if all of them would be able to heal a bullet wound, though, or if Max is particularly good at manipulating molecular estructures... hhhmmmm... And if they can, why didn't Michael tried to heal Isabel from that bullet wound in /Chant Down Babylon/? So, in retrospective, it may seem that Max was really healing Liz (with his unique ability, not the molecular thing) but he wasn't aware of it. He just assumed he was using the other power. He was definitely surprised to see a silver handprint on Liz's stomach, so I would assume he had never healed anyone before, at least not to the extent or degree of leaving a handprint behind. Anyway, I think by the time of the Phoenix Hospital incident, Max knew by then the extent of his powers and his own unique abilitiy to heal sickness. How he found out? The Destiny book? Nasedo? His powers just getting stronger?? Who knows, but by that point Max knew he could do it. Otherwise, he wouldn't have risked going there, entering the hospital, just to say "um... guess not..." Or maybe I just think too much about this... :D Misha <<-- who is so darmned happy that FF is back!!!! :yay:

xmag 0 4-19-2006 04:20 AM

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So, as far as Max was concerned, he hadn't used a unique healing ability, he had used his very "normal" manipulation of molecular structures.

yes, but I think he is the only one who is gifted enough in this area to heal people who are sick or seriously injured. They can all manipulate, but that doesn't mean that Isabel and Michael can heal. I can write, like everyone, but I am not Shakespeare. Same here. And if we believe the show, healing goes with the seal. When Michael had the seal, he was able to heal Isabel. About grandma Claudia, maybe he couldn't heal her because it was her time to go. LIke Clayton. Nothing was wrong with Claudia. She wasn't sick, hurt or anything. It was just time for her and when Max says that he isn't god, he probably meant that he can't save someone from old age.

Citrus and Vine 0 4-19-2006 05:51 AM
Thank you for the new thread, *xmag*! :) Grandma Claudia had a stroke. Liz asked Max to help her. When Max told Liz that he couldn't just heal people and that he wasn't God, he meant that he didn't have the capacity to heal every person in the world and keep them from never dying. He couldn't change the fact that people age, grow old and die. As he said, he wasn't God. When Max healed Clayton, who was old and infirm, all the energy Max used to heal Clayton depleted his own body to such an extent that his own body died, decayed and turned to dust. The aliens had powers to do things in ways that humans can't do things. In real life and in the story of Roswell, things have limits and limitations. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were able to revive Nasedo, using the healing stones, after Nasedo had been shot and appeared to be dead. After Whitaker fatally injured Nasedo, they weren't able to revive him. Max couldn't save Nasedo, using his own healing powers. The group couldn't bring Nasedo back to life, using the healing stones. Too much of Nasedo's body was internally damaged. He couldn't be brought back to life. Likewise, Max knew that he couldn't extend Grandma Claudia's life indefinitely, with his healing powers. He understood that people die, when they are old. Max attempted to revive Grandma Claudia, so that Liz could say goodbye to her. But Max wasn't able to bring Liz's Grandmother to consciousness. Too much of Grandma's Claudia's brain had been destroyed by the second stroke. The living part of Grandma Claudia could no longer communicate with people. Grandma Claudia's spirit though, was able to stand outside her unconscious body and speak to Liz and be seen by Liz and Max. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess had healing powers. Max, Michael, and Tess were shown to individually heal people. Michael and Tess healed minor injuries. Max had greater healing powers. But Max couldn't heal every person. He couldn't bring Alex back to life. Alex was too far dead for Max to revive, just like Nasedo was too fatally injured for Max to revive. Michael healed River Dog's ankle. Michael felt connected to River Dog, because River Dog had helped him and had helped the others to heal Michael. Michael was emotionally in tune with his desire to help heal River Dog's ankle. Later, Michael wasn't able to heal his own black eye injury that Hank had inflicted on him. Michael was afraid to use his powers, because he was afraid of what he might do to Hank. Michael knew that he lacked control of his powers, in contrast to Max and Isabel, who were raised in a loving, caring, protective family, and who had good control of their own powers. Although Michael had been able to heal River Dog's ankle, Michael couldn't heal his own eye, even though he wanted to. Michael was emotionally conflicted about his injury, because Hank's abuse had escalated to leaving a mark on him. Michael needed to let people know that he needed help in handling Hank. So, unconsciously, Michael needed people to see that Hank had abused him. Michael needed help. Not being able to heal his eye was a way for people to see that he needed help. :) When Hank threatened Max and Isabel with the gun, Michael had more trouble using his powers to try to stop Hank. He smashed a chair at first. Eventually, he succeeded in using his powers to get the gun away from Hank. When Michael was upset that Maria was taking an interest in Billy, Michael's powers involuntarily exploded the eggs and the sugar containers. Roswell shows that whatever talents and powers and abilities people have, sometimes those powers don't work. In Roswell, like in real life, there are reasons why people sometimes can do certain things and sometimes can't. Roswell shows that sometimes, people don't have control over some things. :) __________________________________________________

Kathy W 0 4-19-2006 12:17 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Misha*
So, as far as Max was concerned, he hadn't used a unique healing ability, he had used his very "normal" manipulation of molecular structures.

That would fit with the injury. A bullet hole is a breakage problem, a hole in lots of different things--blood vessels, organs, tissue--that shouldn't be there, so manipulating molecular structure would close that. But it wouldn't make up for blood loss and sheer trauma, so I'm still curious as to how Liz was absolutely fine immediately afterwards. It would seem there's a bit more to it than Max thought at first. Which brings me to...

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(Um... actually Max, you *can* just heal people... :look: ) So, it seems like Max really didn't think of it as healing, at least not till that point.

It was established that the hybrids hadn't used their powers much at all, so it's reasonable that there are all sorts of things they could do that they didn't know about, or knew about in some fashion and didn't completely understand. I always liked that aspect of the show--the self-discovery, even though they found it frightening.

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I remember back in the day that some theorized that their powers were abilities that they all had, but in less degree. They compared it to drawing: We all can draw, just that some can do it really well, and some should stay away from all pencils and ink for the sake of humanity... :look:

:lol: And that would be me. :D (I still can't figure out where my kids got their drawing ability, but it definitely wasn't from me.) I like this explanation; it makes sense, and it covers a lot of territory.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *shapeshifter*
Healing River Dog's ankle is a lot less complicated than removing cancer from a body.

True. And Michael was feeling quite an emotional connection to River Dog at that point, which may have helped. I wonder if that has anything to do with healing--the willingness to form an emotional connection with the one you're healing?

Misha 0 4-19-2006 12:25 PM
Hey guys! Well, most people interpret Max's statement about Grandma Claudia and being her time like a natural process. But some people -like me- think that what he meant is that he couldn't heal her of a natural death. Because a bullet isn't natural, it is not supposed to happen to you, no matter what your age is. That's why he could heal it. Following this line of thought, then if Grandma Claudia had been shot, he would have been able to heal her. But, if Liz had had a stroke, he wouldn't have. Because if Max feels that strongly about being your time, then he wouldn't have healed cancer, which is definitely a natural death, even if you are a kid. Like Liz pointed out, that would be a Higher Power decision, which falls into the category of "being your time". But then again, I'm playing with the idea that Max didn't know he was healing with a unique healing power, only that he was manipulating molecular estructures :look: Am I making sense?? *xmag*, that's an interesting idea, that healing goes with the seal. For that matter, would any of the pod squad inherit Tess's powers now that she's dead? Or would only Max's powers transfer? Or anyone's powers who has the seal would transfer?? hhhmmm.... I do agree that Max is the only one who can heal that well, I was just saying that he didn't know it was unique when he was saving Liz. ;) Misha

Citrus and Vine 0 4-19-2006 01:36 PM
When Max told Liz that he couldn't just heal anyone and that he wasn't God, I don't think he meant that he couldn't save anyone from strokes or cancer. Max told Liz that it wasn't her time. She was young. He was able to bring her back to life. I think Max meant that he knew old people eventually die, no matter how much effort goes into saving them. Max understood that death is an inevitable end to old age. Max healed the children of cancer at the hospital. The way he healed them left a handprint on them, just as a handprint was left on Liz, when he healed her. Children have the capacity to heal and improve with treatment. A stroke is caused by blockage or rupture of a blood vessel. Strokes can damage part of the brain, which in turn impairs a range of functions including movement of body parts and communication. Some strokes cause severe injury and death. People who are younger are more likely to recover from stroke, than people who are old. Grandma Claudia's doctor initially expected her to recover from her stroke. The second stoke damaged so much of Grandma Claudia's brain that her doctor believed that she would die. Liz could see it in his eyes that he didn't expect her to live. When the brain and body are too damaged, recovery isn't possible. Likewise, after Alex died, he couldn't be brought back to life. Also Alex had been dead for an extended period of time, before Max tried to heal him. The children with cancer were young. They had been receiving medical treatment. Max was able to heal them of their disease. He collapsed from his efforts. It took him time to recover his powers. Max healed Clayton, who was a very old man. Older people's bodies don't have the healing capacity to recover from injury or disease that younger people have. There was so much wrong with Clayton's aged body that Max used up all of his energy in healing him. Max's own body died in the process of healing Clayton. Max's spirit and memories transferred into Clayton's body. _________________________________________

xmag 0 4-19-2006 01:48 PM

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xmag, that's an interesting idea, that healing goes with the seal. For that matter, would any of the pod squad inherit Tess's powers now that she's dead? Or would only Max's powers transfer? Or anyone's powers who has the seal would transfer?? hhhmmm....

This episode, WDAMYK, confirmed some theories I had about the antarian royalty, based on the european royalties in the past. When Max died, Michael inherited the seal. Not Tess, who was still the queen, after all. Not their son (probably too youn). So it would leave Isabel, since she was the king's sister. BUT it was Michael who inherited the seal. Why ? In my opinion, only males inherite the throne. On Antar, Zan and Ava were married but they didn't have children. As a king, Zan knew that he needed an heir. If he didn't have an heir, the throne would go to... his sister's husband (this is based on the fact that on Earth, Michael inherited the royal seal, not Isabel). So whoever was married to Isabel was the next king. Now, imagine if Khivar had married Isabel ? We also know that Vilandra and Khivar met during peace treaties. Meaning that Zan and Khivar were already at war when Vilandra and Khivar met. It was in Zan's interest to preserve the throne in case he was killed and without an heir so he married off his sister to his second in command. Who might have been a noble, too. About the seal allowing to heal, well, Michael was able to heal Isabel when she was shot, and that was because he had the seal. And wasn't there a scene where Max was trying to heal a light injury but couldn't ? I could be wrong since I haven't seen this episode in a long time but I am almost sure that there was such a scene. And healing is oftenly associated with royalty, in Europe. It's like a divine power.

Misha 0 4-19-2006 02:05 PM
Hey people! *Kathy!*, as usual, we posted at the same time :P I like the emotional bit you put in. After all, we do know that emotions can trigger the podsters powers, or at least Michael's in /Behind the Music/. It is reasonable to assume that emotions would help with healing which, as far as we know, always implies a connection being formed. *xmag*, though I like your theory about Vilandra meeting with Khivar at peace treaties, there's no canon on that. We have assumed that Khivar and Zan have been enemies for a long time... or we have assumed that Vilandra met Khivar when he was her brother's enemy. But we really don't know. For all we have seen, Khivar and Zan could have been best friends and then all went to hell... BUT! I do like your scenario, and I think it's very plausible. I read someone's theory that the seal by-passed Isabel because she was dying herself. But it doesn't explain why Tess didn't get it, being she the Queen. I mean, as far as we know, Rath didn't married Vilandra -was just going to- so he wasn't part of the Royal Family. I guess your theory works better ;) And I didn't know that bit about kings and healing! COOL! Misha

Citrus and Vine 0 4-19-2006 04:03 PM
Regarding the Seal of Antar, the direct Royal Antarian line was the important factor in determining who was meant to have the Seal. Max lost the Seal, when he died and went into Clayton's completely human body. Baby Zan didn't get the Seal, after Max died, because he was completely human. Kivar didn't want baby Zan, because, baby Zan, being completely human, could never be a true Royal lineal Antarian ruler. He couldn't inherit the Seal. He lacked Antarin cells. Michael developed the Seal on his chest, after Max died. Everyone could see that Michael was an interim leader, and not the direct, lineal Royal Antarian ruler. After Max grew Antarian cells in Clayton's body, Max was able to take the Seal away from Michael, because Max was the true King. Max wore the Seal of Antar "stenciled to his brain". Isabel nearly died, shortly after Max died. She didn't develop the Seal of Antar. Evidently, the Seal couldn't be in someone near dying and unconscious. The Seal then developed in Michael, who had the Seal, until Max took it away from him. :) ____________________________________

xmag 0 4-20-2006 02:47 AM

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Originally Posted by *Misha*
*xmag*, though I like your theory about Vilandra meeting with Khivar at peace treaties, there's no canon on that. We have assumed that Khivar and Zan have been enemies for a long time... or we have assumed that Vilandra met Khivar when he was her brother's enemy. But we really don't know. For all we have seen, Khivar and Zan could have been best friends and then all went to hell...

In the episode "Interruptus" (Isabel and Jesse's honeymoon), Khivar is present and is telling how he met the love of his life : *KIVAR: Hey, it's all right. Really. Look, to fully understand what happened, you gotta go back to the first night we met. See, we weren't supposed to fall in love. Our families were enemies, we were at the palace, and it was one of those rare moments where they were trying to find peace. * "Our families were enemies, they were trying to find peace..." It seems to indicate that Khivar's family and Zan and Vilandra's family were at war and that they were talks about peace. Vilandra and Khivar fell in love while they shouldn't have, because of everything happening between their families.

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I read someone's theory that the seal by-passed Isabel because she was dying herself. But it doesn't explain why Tess didn't get it, being she the Queen. I mean, as far as we know, Rath didn't married Vilandra -was just going to- so he wasn't part of the Royal Family. I guess your theory works better ;)

In my opinion, Michael getting the seal could be temporary, until baby Zan was of age. But still, none of the girls inherited the seal, neither Tess nor Isabel. For me, it's more a question of gender rather than of title : women aren't important, only males get to be leaders on Antar. Tess was used as a womb for the heir but she wasn't important by herself. Had she been important, her baby would have been too, human or not. Since the royals were 90 % human, Max's heir would be, too, so Khivar knew that.

Citrus and Vine 0 4-20-2006 07:36 AM
Roswell shows that woman on Antar are important. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess had been known on their planet as the Royal Four. All four were sent to Earth. Even their enemies, the Skins, identified them as the Royal Four. Each of the Royal Four had status, and they were recognized as important people on their home planet. After Tess and Max's baby failed to have any Antarian cells, because he was completely human, Kivar came to Earth to get Isabel. Kivar didn't attempt to have a child with Tess. Tess was royal, but she wasn't a lineal Royal. Kivar wanted Isabel, because Isabel was a lineal, Royal Antarian. She or her child could inherit the Seal, if Max/King Zan died. Isabel didn't inherit the Seal immediately after Max died healing Clayton, because she was unconscious and near death. The Seal couldn't be in a dying body, near death. The Seal of Antar couldn't be in a completely human body, either. Max lost the Seal, when he died and went into Clayton's completely human body. Max/King Zan became King on Antar, after his father's death. So the crown passed on to either the eldest, lineal heir, or to the male lineal heir, as first preference. The Seal went to King Zan, as the prime, lineal Royal Antarian heir. (On Earth, Isabel was assigned a birthday that made her seem older than Max. But we don't know whether Max/KingZan or Isabel/Vilandra had been first born, when they lived on Antar.) Max and Isabel's Antarian mother was important. After the Royal Four were murdered by Kivar on their planet, she got the Seal. She became in charge of the Royal allies on Antar. The Royal allies worked against Kivar. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother and the Royal allies sent the recreated Royal Four to Earth, hoping one day that the group would return to free their planet. Max, as a fetus, had the Seal, before he came to Earth. Max's Antarian mother passed it on to him, after he was recreated as an alien/human hybrid. Max had the Seal, when he came to Earth, before he emerged from the pods in 1989, looking like a 6 year old. Age didn't matter to the Seal. Max, even as a fetus, had the Seal. After Max's death, and after Isabel was near death, the Seal went to Michael, who was healthy. The Seal was on Michael's chest, not on his brain, the way the Seal was when the true ruler of Antar had the Seal. Michael was an interim ruler. He wasn't a true lineal King. Max was able to take back the Seal, after Max grew Antarian cells in Clayton's body. If Max, Michael, and Isabel had all died on Earth, Tess could have inherited the Seal, until a new lineal, Royal, Antarian heir, with Antarian cells, was created or born. Then the Seal would have passed on to a recreated Max or Isabel or to their heirs, with Antarian blood. If Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess had all died again on Earth, without heirs with Antarian cells or without being recreated again, then Max and Isabel's Antarian mother, could inherit the Seal, again as an interim ruler, until a time when she could again recreate Max or Isabel, and one of them could become the new lineal ruler. _______________________________________________

Misha 0 4-20-2006 09:51 AM
:lol: I had always heard it as if things were calmed, a rare calmed during the war time! But now I see where you are coming from :D Yeah, it definitely makes sense now. 90% human?? Where did that come from?? Last thing I remember (but now we know my memory is not that good... :look: ) they were "too" human -according to the dupes, who are not exactly the best source- but I can't recall anyone anywhere saying any % about it... So, was it just a number you threw in or am I forgetting something? Seriously :D Misha

shapeshifter 0 4-22-2006 01:06 AM
How about if the seal was biologically gender specific? Sort of like only females give birth.

Citrus and Vine 0 4-22-2006 02:36 AM
There isn't any evidence of the Seal being biologically gender specific. There is evidence that women could have the Seal. The important consideration for the Seal was that the Seal went to a body with royal Antarian cells. Michael was royal, but he wasn't a lineal Royal. Tess was also royal, and she also wasn't a lineal royal. Max and Isabel were lineal Royals. Their father had been the true leader, until his death. Then the Seal went to Zan of Antar. The Seal went to the brain of a lineal Royal Antarian. People who were royal, but who weren't lineal Royals, could have the Seal temporarily, until a lineal Royal could be given the Seal. Michael didn't want to give up the Seal. Max took it from him. Max could take the Seal from Michael, because Max was a lineal Royal Antarian. The people of Antar and the other planets knew about the Seal and its meaning. The emissary placed his hand behind Max's head to test him. A true leader carried the Seal in the brain. Michael wouldn't have passed the emissary's test, because Michael didn't have the Seal in his brain. The emissary couldn't be fooled by someone who had the Seal, but didn't have the Seal in the brain. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess weren't conceived or carried in a woman's body. They were engineered. They grew in pods, outside of any alien or human body. They weren't born in the way that humans are born. The Antarians didn't need women to host a baby inside their bodies. The Royal Four were murdered by Kivar. Kivar, who was male, didn't get the Seal. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother survived the deaths of the Royal Four. She was female. She had the Seal. She gave the Seal to Max, while he was a fetus, before he landed on Earth. Max had the Seal, when he emerged from his pod. He had the Seal, when he was tested by the emissary. Hope that helps. :) _________________________________________

Reggie 0 4-23-2006 11:39 AM
*Citrus and Vine: There isn't any evidence of the Seal being biologically gender specific. There is evidence that women could have the Seal.* Really? Do tell: Where is it? *The important consideration for the Seal was that the Seal went to a body with royal Antarian cells. Michael was royal, but he wasn't a lineal Royal. Tess was also royal, and she also wasn't a lineal royal. ..... Max and Isabel's Antarian mother survived the deaths of the Royal Four. She was female. She had the Seal. She gave the Seal to Max, while he was a fetus, before he landed on Earth. Max had the Seal, when he emerged from his pod. He had the Seal, when he was tested by the emissary.* Well, you'd think that Tess was as "royal" as Max's mother; or rather, that neither were "lineal royal". If both Max's parents were "lineal royal", then they'd be related to each other. :idea: Hey! that explains a /lot!/ :rolleyes: *Max and Isabel were lineal Royals. Their father had been the true leader, until his death. Then the Seal went to Zan of Antar. The Seal went to the brain of a lineal Royal Antarian. People who were royal, but who weren't lineal Royals, could have the Seal temporarily, until a lineal Royal could be given the Seal. Michael didn't want to give up the Seal. Max took it from him. Max could take the Seal from Michael, because Max was a lineal Royal Antarian. The people of Antar and the other planets knew about the Seal and its meaning. The emissary placed his hand behind Max's head to test him. A true leader carried the Seal in the brain. Michael wouldn't have passed the emissary's test, because Michael didn't have the Seal in his brain. The emissary couldn't be fooled by someone who had the Seal, but didn't have the Seal in the brain.* Gobbldygook. Max was marked with the "royal seal", so that his human body would be recognisable as the one carrying the "essence" of King Zan; as opposed to an impostor. Max's dupe "Zan" might or not have had it; I don't know. The whole business of the migrating seal only appeared in S3, when we know they'd discarded any thoughts of continuity or logic. IMHO, it's drek. *Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess weren't conceived or carried in a woman's body. They were engineered. They grew in pods, outside of any alien or human body. They weren't born in the way that humans are born. The Antarians didn't need women to host a baby inside their bodies.* This relates to the seal how? *The Royal Four were murdered by Kivar. Kivar, who was male, didn't get the Seal.* But he did get the throne, didn't he? And expected to keep it as well. So the Royal Seal doesn't seem all that important. *New tagline coming soon!

Misha 0 4-23-2006 12:22 PM
Just a quick fly-by because I'm sumerged in the world of Fanfiction :D *Reggie*, your idea that the Royal Seal is not so important is very interesting. Probably the Seal serves only as some sort of ID. I mean, on a society where shapeshifters are around, it would be wise to have some way to certify that your ruler is really your ruler :look: (Thanks to *Kathy* for that explanation on her fic :D ) On the other hand, like Isabel so wisely said once: /You want to be the leader? See how it works without any followers./ Are the people on Antar obligued to follow whoever has the Seal? I think not... We don't know if the Seal has any meaning beyond identifying the "true" king. We don't even know if Zan had the Seal either, which would be confusing because then you would have two true kings... :look: Or if there's more to it... But as you said, Khivar is ruling without the darn thing.... Okay, he has a civil war on his hands, but he's still up there :goof: Now I'll go back to my fanfics :D Misha

xmag 0 4-23-2006 02:46 PM

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Max and Isabel's Antarian mother survived the deaths of the Royal Four. She was female. She had the Seal. She gave the Seal to Max, while he was a fetus, before he landed on Earth.

That's YOUR opinion, not a fact. It was never said anywhere, in the show, that Max's mother had the seal, or inherited it. For all we know, the seal could have gone to the Granolith ? After all, who knows what that device really was. If women could inherit the seal, Isabel or Tess would have inherited it the second after Max had died. Isabel was alive when Max turned to dust so the seal should have jumped to her. But it looked like the seal never went to Isabel but to Michael. Isabel was injured, but still alive so had she had the seal, even for a short time, she should have had it until her death and then, and only then, would it have transfered to Michael. NOw the question is, what was the seal ? A way to identify the king, since it was used to identify Max in NY. But it also seemed to provide the healing abilities, since Michael was able to heal Isabel while Max couldn't heal. I haven't seen the third season in a while but wasn't there a scene where Max was trying to heal himself and failed ? I remember Michael healing his hand, pushing him to realise that he was the king. So the healing abilities were linked to the king.

Misha 0 4-23-2006 06:20 PM
:lol: Maybe it was the whole package ;) Seal, Healing ability and Cool Green Shield all in one :D You know, that way, the Seal doesn't mean healing powers, it just goes to the next person... all three things go together but independently... Now, of course, I'm assuming that Michael aslo got the cool green shield, because Max wasn't able to use it. I've tried to find an explanation as to why would Max be unable to use his unique abilities but he could use all the "share" ones... :misha pauses to keep thinking: Okay, I give up... Maybe the Seal does carry those powers then :look: When it "deactivated" from Max, it also rendered him unable to reach those abilities... And when it activated on Michael, he was able to reach those... Am I making sense? :spineyes: The only problem I have with the Seal is that it changed Michael. Unless Antarians are like Kringlons (sp?) I don't see how Michael would be suitable to lead with that character and impulsiveness... But then again, this has nothing to do with the discussion about the Seal and Max's powers... sorry, ranting here :goof: Now, if it was gender related.... I'll get back to this... Okay, we know that Zan Jr. was ruled out by Khivar because he was too human (sorry, I can't swallow that he was *completely* human, at least some recesive genes must have gone there!), but, genetically speaking, he is Max's son. Why didn't the Seal go to him? What is it on Max's essence from the original Zan that matters here? So, Zan Jr. didn't get any of that essence and the Seal by pass him... Why to Michael? Maybe we are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Maybe, on Antar, when things are not chaotic as now, the Seal would follow a logical path from father to son, or heir, or whatever. But when whoever was planning the Seal on Max, a hybrid, he/she/it decided that, in case of Max's dead, Michael should have it. Why? Who knows! But it would explain why we can't find a logical path here, since we know that Rath wasn't married yet to Vilandra, so he had no real claim to the throne yet, and that Isabel must have been a logical choice (yes, I'm keeping aside the gender theory here). I think *xmag*'s theory about Zan not wanting Khivar to gain the Seal and so choosing Rath could work. Maybe Zan knew about this plan and so told the bioengineers to ensure that, if his duplicate died, Rath's duplicate got the Seal. Yeah, it might do.... :D Now I'll go to ponder these things over... Misha

Citrus and Vine 0 4-23-2006 11:03 PM
*xmag*, we know that the Seal went to Michael and not to the Ganilith, after Max died. The Seal appeared on Michael's chest. So we can also surmise that the Seal didn't go to the Granilith, after Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess had been murdered by Kivar on Antar. Kivar didn't get the Seal. Michael, who wasn't a lineal Royal Antarian, got the Seal. Max, who was a lineal Royal Antarian, was able to take the Seal away from Michael. The Seal resided in a living person, not an object. The Granilith was an object, not a person. Max lost the Seal, when he died healing Clayton. Even though the Seal could be in a body with human qualities, such as an alien-human hybrid body, the Seal couldn't be in any body lacking Antarian cells. Clayton's body couldn't have the Seal, until Max grew Antarian cells inside in Clayton's body. Max and Michael each sequentially had the Seal, but in different ways. Max and Michael each believed that there was more to the Seal than just identifying who was in charge. Michael's bad behavior is an important part of the Roswell story. Michael's behavior changed, after Max returned to Roswell, after Max had died. Max, who had been the acknowledged leader of the group earlier, was now alive again. Michael noticed that he had healed his own hand. He hadn't been able to heal his own black eye, after Hank abused him. Michael hadn't healed himself after Grant shot him. Michael believed that the fact he healed himself meant that he had changed. Michael believed that the Seal gave him the power to heal his hand. He also believed that the Seal meant that he was in now in charge. Michael, who had been abused by people with power, mistakenly believed that an outward symbol meant a person was in charge. But no one followed Michael, when he behaved badly. Being a good leader requires more than an outward symbol. Michael began acting so badly, that Max had to take the Seal from him. The Seal was meant, or designed, or intended, or affiliated on a permanent basis for a lineal, Royal Antarian person only. Someone like Michael, who wasn't a lineal Royal, couldn't keep the Seal for himself. Someone like Michael could have the Seal temporarily, until a lineal Royal person was given the Seal or took the Seal. Michael helped Isabel, after the doctor had helped to save her life. Isabel's condition had stabilized. Michael placed his hand on Isabel's arm, the way Max had placed his hand on Grandma Caudia's hand, when he attempted to revive Grandma Claudia long enough for Liz to say goodbye. Max hadn't tried to heal Grandma Claudia. Michael's powers and his conversation with Isabel brought Isabel back. Isabel said to Michael, “I heard, Michael. I heard you. I was somewhere else, but I followed your voice back.'Michael's words and his energy brought her back. Max, Michael, and Tess are each shown healing people. So it wasn't necessary for a person to have the Seal to be able to heal. Max couldn't heal Kyle's injured hand after Max had healed Clayton's old, aged body, and after Max saved Liz from falling, and after Max died again from the fall. Max couldn't heal Kyle's injured hand, because Max hadn't fully recovered from the fall, and from everything he had done prior to the fall. Max needed more time for his own powers to return. For example, Max's powers slowly recovered, after Max healed the children in the hospital. Max's powers didn't come back all at once, even while he had the Seal. Max had superior healing powers, while he had the Seal. Max was able to bring people back to life, if the person hadn't been dead too long or too badly injured. Max's powers had limitations. Max, while he had the Seal, couldn't bring Alex back to life or Nasedo back to life, after Whitaker fatally injured him. Some people have assumed that if Isabel were in line to receive the Seal, she would have immediately received the Seal upon Max's death. That isn't the case. Here's why Isabel didn't get the Seal, after Max died. Max died healing Clayton. But Max lived on in Clayton's body. Max wasn't completely gone. Max still retained his identity of Zan of Antar, the real, true Antarian leader, even while in Clayton's body. Max was still the same person, even when he was in another body. The Seal appeared on Michael's chest. If the Seal had instead gone to Isabel, the Seal would have been in her brain. She wouldn't be able to give the Seal to Max, without her dying. Max wouldn't have been able to take the Seal from her, without killing her. (Max only lost the Seal, when he died. Lineal Royal Antarians couldn't give the Seal to another person and live. Lineal Royal Antarians couldn't have the Seal taken from them, except through dying.) Because Max was still alive in Clayton's body, after healing Clayton, the Seal wasn't activated in Isabel. The Seal existed in Michael, until Max grew Antarian cells, which would enable him to take back the Seal from Michael, which was rightfully his. Max was the rightful, legitimate leader of Antar. Michael and Tess (if Tess had lived) could only have the Seal temporarily. Only a lineal Royal Antarian could be the legitimate leader of Antar, which the people on Antar and the people of the other planets knew. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother, like Michael, wasn't a lineal Royal. Michael was chosen. Max and Isabel's Anatarian mother, like Michael, was a chosen royal. Like Michael, she, too, could temporarily have the Seal, until she could give the Seal to Zan (Max), after Kivar killed him, because he was the rightful leader of Antar. She gave the Seal to Max, while he was a fetus. Max had the Seal, when he landed on Earth as a fetus. He had the Seal when he emerged from his pod. He had the Seal, when he was tested by the emissary. In the story of Roswell, each main character has leadership qualities, which are vital to everyone. While Zan of Antar had been the rightful leader during his life on Antar, he chose to share the leadership position with three other people. The four were known as the Royal Four, even to their enemies the Skins. Good leaders work together with other people for the benefit of all. :) ______________________________________________

shapeshifter 0 4-24-2006 12:25 AM
Just a little meta-Roswell Theory epiphany... Nowhere does it say that the Seal is gender-specific. :look: But neither is it written that it is *not* gender-specific. :) Similarly, I don't think the momogram or Larek or anyone revealed that Max & Isabel's mother had the Royal Seal (correct me if I'm wrong). :look: But neither is it stated that dear ol' Mum didn't have the seal. :) So, if I make up a plot hole filler that says the Seal was gender-specific, or if Citrus makes up a plot line that involves Mom placing the Royal Seal in the head of Max-as-a-fetus, then those are theories, and don't have to be cannon. Does that make sense? About the Seal, when Max waved his hand over baby Zan's head, we saw a pattern of stars like the Seal Max had when the Emissary checked him out. Max's Earth Mom said, "What was that?" and Max replies, "Just something for him to remember me by." Am I the only one who thought, "A-ha! Max just gave baby Zan the Royal Seal!"? P.S. Misha, I'm enjoying your ideas. Have you ever posted on the forums using a different screen name?

Citrus and Vine 0 4-24-2006 12:39 AM
Other people also wondered if Max had given baby Zan the Seal. However, I think Max was truthful in saying that he had given his child a memory. I think Max wanted baby Zan to know that he was loved, even though his biological parents couldn't raise him. Max knew what it had been like for Michael, Isabel, and himself, when they didn't know or remember their pasts. Perhaps Max made it possible for his child to recognize him in the future, if they ever met again. I don't think that Max could give baby Zan or anyone else the Seal of Antar, unless Max died. Max had the Seal in his brain. When Max died, he lost the Seal. Max loved his child and gave him up for adoption, to safeguard his life. If Max had given baby Zan the Seal, then baby Zan's life would be endangered. If baby Zan could have inherited the Seal, then Kivar would have killed Max, and baby Zan would have gotten the Seal. But Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan, because baby Zan was entirely human and couldn't have the Seal. Kivar knew that baby Zan was Max's child and could grow up to support the people who supported Max/King Zan. So Kivar wanted to kill baby Zan. The Seal didn't transfer with Max into Clayton's entirely human body. After Max grew Antarian cells in Clayton's body, Max was able to take the Seal from Michael. The Seal couldn't be in a body lacking Antarian cells. __________________________________

Kathy W 0 4-24-2006 10:39 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *shapeshifter*
So, if I make up a plot hole filler that says the Seal was gender-specific, or if Citrus makes up a plot line that involves Mom placing the Royal Seal in the head of Max-as-a-fetus, then those are theories, and don't have to be cannon. Does that make sense?

Sure it does. Any made up plot hole filler/theory can't be cannon anyway. Of course, it also makes sense to recognize that such made up plot hole fillers are indeed made up, and not present them as cannon. I believe that's what people are objecting to.

Citrus and Vine 0 4-24-2006 05:40 PM
:wave: Hi *Everyone*! *shapeshifter* and *Kathy W*, in my opinion, there is sufficient information given in the story to understand things. :) In real life, people use the information they know to figure things out. Likewise, we can figure things out from information in the story of Roswell. :) *shapeshifter*, I wish to continue our conversation of whether or not the Seal of Antar was biologically gender specific. Here are facts we know from the story. Lineage was a consideration on Antar. (Maz-Zan's father had been the leader, before his son was crowned.) The Seal could be in a body with parts that weren't of Antarian lineage. (Max was an alien-human hybrid, when he had the Seal.) The Seal could be transferred by person-to-person direct contact. (Max took the Seal from Michael.) Clayton's completely human body didn't receive the Seal, even though Max made direct contact with Clayton's body. The Seal could be in a body of someone not directly related to the Royal lineage. (Michael, who wasn't Max and Isabel's biological brother, got the Seal.) Kivar didn't get the Seal, even though he murdered King Zan and was in direct contact with him. Liz pointed out that maybe Michael got the Seal, as a back-up. Liz also pointed out in an earlier episode that you can tell the sex of a person from their blood. People can receive blood transfusions from men or from women. Gender doesn't affect the usefulness of blood transfusions. Michael, who was male, was a match for a blood transfusion for Isabel, who was female. Now consider again, Liz's idea that Michael got the Seal, as a back-up plan. Michael, even though he wasn't Max and Isabel's biological brother, got the Seal. So Michael could have been given a specific identifying factor, which enabled his body to have the Seal. A back-up plan was also evidently in place on Antar, before King Zan was murdered. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother, like Michael, could have been given a specific identifying factor, which enabled her body to have the Seal. Someone got the Seal, after the Royal Four were all murdered. We know that Max got the Seal, after he had been murdered on Antar. So, to me, the most-likely person to have been part of the back-up plan on Antar was Max and Isabel's Antarian mother. Just like blood transfusions aren't gender-specific, so having the Seal didn't need to be gender-specific, either. As has been pointed out before, the fact that shapeshifters existed meant that it was important to have a way of identifying people. Zan of Antar was identifiable by having the Seal of Antar. Likewise, it would have been important to have an identifiable factor for other people. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother, and Isabel/Vilandra, and Tess/Ava, and Michael/Rath would have needed to be distinguishable from shapeshifters, so that imposters couldn't take their place. Isabel/Vilandra could have already had an identifiable marker in her at birth on Antar, because she was Zan of Antar's biological sister. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother, and Rath of Antar, and Ava of Antar could have been given a factor, which marked them and also made it possible for them to have the Seal, on a temporary basis, as a back-up plan for the Seal. Michael was the back-up for the Seal for Max, in the event of Max's death. Michael could have the Seal temporarily, until Max could be in a new body with lineal, Antarian factors. If Max and Michael had both been murdered at the same time, then Isabel, like Michael, could have gotten the Seal. :daisy: _________________________________________

Misha 0 4-24-2006 06:04 PM
A fly by! four minutes and I go home!!! (from the office to my very earthly home... no spaceships involve... sigh...) *shapeshifter*, yeah, I thought about Max and the Seal with Zan... but the pattern is not the same. Go, check it out, I'll wait... :look: He said to Diane "It's just a memory." I remember the CHADs saying that how could Max do that, since mind tricks were Tess's department... but there, it wasn't the Seal... that or Max got the Seall all wrong... :lol: Nope, I've always posted with Misha, but I mainly discuss Roswell theories at the POD's thread :D Nice place! we are very friendly!! Right, *Kathy*?? ;) I love Roswell discussions!! I'll stick around for a whle as lone as there's something interesting to pond about ;) About canon (or is cannon???), all theories are great, as long as they don't stumble or crash any canon we actually got to see. I'm always for a good debate, and seeing options, even opposite ones (like the NasedoPact, was it real or not) as long as all arguments can stand for themselves :D Misha

shapeshifter 0 4-24-2006 09:07 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*

...Max loved his child and gave him up for adoption, to safeguard his life. If Max had given baby Zan the Seal, then baby Zan's life would be endangered. ....

Good point

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*
...If baby Zan could have inherited the Seal, then Kivar would have killed Max, and baby Zan would have gotten the Seal....

Hmmm... Or, perhaps Khivar would have wanted to kill Baby Zan to prevent him from getting the Seal. It would stand to reason that an important item in Khivar's agenda was getting the Seal for himself.

Citrus and Vine 0 4-25-2006 02:48 AM
I, too, think Kivar was interested in who could have the Seal. :) Kivar didn't get the Seal, after he murdered the Royal Four on Antar. Kivar wasn't a lineal Royal Antarian. He couldn't personally have the Seal. Baby Zan also couldn't have the Seal. Baby Zan was completely human. He didn't get the Seal, when Max died. The people of Antar and the other planets knew about the Seal. The Seal identified the legitimate alien leader of Antar, when Max had been Zan of Antar. The Seal didn't identify human inheritance. The Seal identified the alien part of Max, not the human part of Max. The Seal was an alien identifier, for aliens. :daisy:

xmag 0 4-27-2006 02:53 AM

Quote:
Or, perhaps Khivar would have wanted to kill Baby Zan to prevent him from getting the Seal. It would stand to reason that an important item in Khivar's agenda was getting the Seal for himself.

And still, Khivar has been ruling for 50 human years, without the seal and without the granolith. So why would he want the seal ? Maybe it's like a crown, something more symbolic rather than a weapon ?

Misha 0 4-27-2006 10:56 AM
Darn thing that seal... :look: I like the symbolic aspect of it, but somehow it seems that it was more important... In *Kathy*'s fic, The Shapeshifter Series, she says that the Seal serves for the shapeshifters to not be able to kill Zan -and if I remember correctly, it also serves for the shapeshifters to obey Zan... *Kathy*, where are you to explain these things?? :spineyes: I do agree that, for all we know, Khivar does not need the Seal to rule, and so far, we also know that it identifies who is the king, although, of course, kings can only rule when others recognize them as kings ;) Misha

xmag 0 4-28-2006 03:15 AM
Napoleon wasn't a royal but he named himself "Emperor". He didn't need a seal or whatever, to become the leader of the country. Now, the other countries didn't recognize him as the legitimate leader of France, though. Lots of wars at that time because of that. But I think Khivar could lead without being a royal, or without a seal. Now, the granolith, I am sceptical. Didn't he hide the fact that he had lost it, to the other planets ? In that case, why ?

Kathy W 0 4-28-2006 10:22 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Misha*
In *Kathy*'s fic, The Shapeshifter Series, she says that the Seal serves for the shapeshifters to not be able to kill Zan -and if I remember correctly, it also serves for the shapeshifters to obey Zan...

Yep....but that's fanfiction, and all rolled into the backstory I wrote for Zan's family. Where that came from might pertain to this discussion, though. I was wondering what it was that bound Langley to obey a direct order from Max and not be able to kill him. How did Langley know that Max was who he said he was? Was it just Max that Langley had to obey/couldn't kill, or was the same true of all the hybrids? And then I wondered if the seal had something to do with it, if that triggered some sort of "program" in Langley (for lack of a better term) that rendered him incapable of killing/disobeying the bearer of the seal. *xmag*: I do recall Nicholas brushing everyone off at the summit when they found out Max had the Granolith. Something like.....erg. *Curses fuzzy memory and looks it up* NICHOLAS: "No, it's no longer on our world. Yes, we've known about it for a long time. No, Kivar decided he didn't need to tell you. And, yes, we know where it is. It's with Max." Cheeky little brat. ;)

xmag 0 4-29-2006 03:46 AM

Quote:
How did Langley know that Max was who he said he was? Was it just Max that Langley had to obey/couldn't kill, or was the same true of all the hybrids? And then I wondered if the seal had something to do with it, if that triggered some sort of "program" in Langley (for lack of a better term) that rendered him incapable of killing/disobeying the bearer of the seal.

Hmm, good idea. We don't really know about Langley having to obey the other royals because he never met Isabel and Michael. But while he could have been to Roswell to scare Michael, in Busted, he chose to send someone. Why ? Because he was afraid that he would have to obey him, as a member of the R4 ? I don't know. I don't know if the seal was triggering some sort of program in Langley. After all, he attacked Max, and Max had the seal, so the seal didn't prevent Langley to try to kill the king :confused: .

Citrus and Vine 0 4-29-2006 05:25 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*
he [Kal] attacked Max, and Max had the seal, so the seal didn't prevent Langley to try to kill the king

Right. Kal Langley couldn't personally kill Max, even though he wanted to. And Kal didn't protect Max. He told Max to never call him a protector. Kal obeyed direct, specific orders from Max. If Kal didn't interfere in Max/King Zan's life, he was free to do whatever he wanted, anywhere, any time. Kal was only constained, if he personally, directly interfered Max's life.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*
We don't really know about Langley having to obey the other royals because he never met Isabel and Michael. But while he could have been to Roswell to scare Michael, in Busted, he chose to send someone. Why ? Because he was afraid that he would have to obey him, as a member of the R4 ? I don't know.

I think the reason Kal sent Joey to Michael in Utah was because Michael had powers, and because Michael might have a gun. Max and Liz had used a gun to get to the ship. Shapeshifters, like Nasedo and Kal could die, if they were shot. So, Kal sent Joey to Michael, instead of going to Michael himself, because Kal didn't want to risk his own life personally. Kal knew exactly where the spaceship was at all times, without anyone telling him. Kal knew that the spaceship could fly and that Max could fly the spaceship by himself. Otherwise, Kal wouldn't have bothered to warn off Max or get Max arrested. If Max hadn't had the diamond key, or if the spaceship couldn't fly, or if Max couldn't fly the ship by himself, then Kal wouldn't have been concerned about Max finding the spaceship. Kal got Max arrested, because Kal knew that Max had the diamond key, and that the spaceship could fly, and that Max could fly the ship by himself. Max didn't know that Kal got him arrested. Max thought that Kal had Joey warn him off, in order to protect Max. But Kal didn't protect Max. Kal got Max arrested. Kal physically abused Max and tried to kill Max. Kal wanted the spaceship for himself, in case he needed or wanted to leave Earth. Kal pretended to Max that he hadn't known that Max had the diamond key. He obeyed Max's direct, specific order to "Shapeshift. Fly the ship." Kal flew the spaceship briefly up into the air, off the supports, and then cut or stalled the engines. Max failed to go into the ship with Kal to watch him. Max failed to tell Kal where to fly the ship to. Max failed to check inside the ship, after the ship came down. Max was young and inexperienced. :)

xmag 0 4-29-2006 09:59 AM

Quote:
Kal obeyed direct, specific orders from Max.

Maybe he had to obey from Michael and Isabel, too but we will never know since they never came into contact with each other.

Quote:
So, Kal sent Joey to Michael, instead of going to Michael himself, because Kal didn't want to risk his own life personally.

Kal had strong powers, too, so I don't see how he would have risked his life by going to Roswell to scare Michael. He could have played the role of a human and use a gun.

Citrus and Vine 0 4-29-2006 01:26 PM
As you say, *xmag*, Kal Langley could have gone in person to Roswell to talk to Michael (or Isabel) any time he might choose to do so. But Kal never talked to Michael in Roswell. Kal sent Joey Ferrini, Jr. to talk to Michael in the state of *Utah*. (Joey didn't talk to Michael in *Roswell, New Mexico*, which is in a different state. Utah lies between California and New Mexico. :)) Michael had powers and was younger than Kal. Michael could have used his powers or a gun against Kal, if Kal had confronted Michael in person. So, even though Kal could have chosen to warn off Max with a message through Michael in Salina, Utah, Kal Langely instead wanted Joey to warn off Max through Michael. Kal thought he would be safe, if he used Joey. By using Joey to give Michael the message to give to Max, Kal also freed up time to do his own things. Kal didn't have to get personally involved in any hassles he might encounter with Michael. Kal had Joey take the risk, instead of himself. Kal's decision to use Joey proved to be a bad choice for him. Max was able to find Kal, because Kal had used Joey to warn off Max through Michael. ___________________________________

xmag 0 4-30-2006 03:58 AM
Being french, american geography isn't something I know very well.I meant that Kal might have decided to not go to Utah because Michael and Isabel being there, he might have had to obey them, had he met them.

Citrus and Vine 0 4-30-2006 06:01 PM
Viva la France, *xmag*! Maybe the Granilith, in addition to being a transport, had special symbolic significance to other aliens, something like the way the Eiffel tower symbolizes France. Although the Eiffel tower is just a structure that people can visit, the Eiffel tower means more than that to people around the world. :) It's possible that Kal Langley used Joey to avoid being controlled by Michael. But I don't think that the shapeshifters Kal or Nasedo were constrained to do as instructed by anyone other than Max/King Zan. Suppose that Kal had to do exactly as Max and Michael each instructed. Then suppose that Max and Michael gave conflicting instructions. Suppose Michael instructed Kal to only obey him, and that Max instructed Kal to only obey him. Kal would short out, trying to carry out two conflicting instructions. Or suppose that Kal would obey Max, over Michael, but obey Michael as soon as Michael gave any instruction. Then any instruction Max gave Kal could be undone by Michael giving Kal an instruction. So, although it's possible that Kal and Nasedo had to obey Michael, I think it is unlikely. The fact that Kal and Nasedo were forced to obey Max, even when they didn't want to, indicates to me that they were punished and controlled for past misdeeds against King Zan. When people are truly loyal, no artificial control is needed to ensure that their support. Again, to me, the fact that Kal and Nasedo were compelled to obey Max indicates to me that they had done something wrong against Max/King Zan in the past. As long as Kal and Nasedo didn't interfere personally and directly in Max's life, they could do anything they wanted to do, any time, any place. :)

xmag 0 5-02-2006 05:00 AM

Quote:
Again, to me, the fact that Kal and Nasedo were compelled to obey Max indicates to me that they had done something wrong against Max/King Zan in the past.

If Nacedo and Kal had done something wrong in the past, why give them the most important jobs, of protectors ? Who knows if they would feel compelled to obey Max, under a human form ? The protocole could have failed due to the fact that Max was an hybrid.

Misha 0 5-02-2006 10:01 AM
*xmag*, I think you are right. It doesn't seem plausible that possible traitors are made to obey Zan... I've seen theories about the shapeshifters being slaves and being bioengineer beings to protect the Royal Family. I guess anything can go, but still... The fact that Kal had neglected his wards could be because of so many things. Fifty years is a loooooooooong time for things to change. And we do know tha Kal kept an eye from time to time on Max and the others, if only for the few words he said at the end of /Control/, and because he knew Max was looking for the ship in /Busted!/. Is Kal loyal? He probably was -which will contradict the traitor theory- but maybe at some point he just "lost interest" on his job ;) I don't know, he figured out Antar wasn't all that marvellous after twenty years or so of good ol' Earth :D He can't kill Max directly, and apparently, he can't command others to do so. Or, he simply didn't want Max dead... after all, Max *is* the king. He had so many opportunities, as Max told him, so....Kal might not be able to kill him, directly or indirectly, after all. I'm not sure if it is safe to assume that Kal was also the dupes protector, but if he was, I'm willing to bet he didn't tell Zan about the obeying aspect of their relationship :P Maybe that's why Kal stayed as far away from them as possible. Hhhhmmm.... :look: Okay, I'm ranting now... Misha

Citrus and Vine 0 5-03-2006 12:09 AM
:wave: Hi *Misha* and *xmag* and everyone! For people who are confused about the actions of Kal and Nasedo, try considering the idea that Kal and Nasedo weren't part of the 1947 crash. Consider the idea that Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth later. Then, I think, you may be able to understand why Kal and Nasedo don't behave the way we expect protectors to behave. Think about all the ways in which Kal and Nasedo behaved as enemies. *xmag*, concerning your question of whether or not shapeshifters had to obey Michael, the answer is that Nasedo didn't obey Michael's instructions. Nasedo didn't obey Michael, even though Michael in the white room told Nasedo to leave with them. *MICHAEL: What are you doing, come on. (shouting) NASEDO: I have something to take care of. MICHAEL: No! You are not leaving me again. Let's go!* Instead, Nasedo stayed behind in the white room. He didn't murder Pierce, even though he stood right next to him. He refused to leave with Michael and Max, knowing that Michael wasn't an agent. Nasedo was their enemy, not a protector. Nasedo wanted Max and Michael each sequentially captured and held by humans. *xmag*, a loving parent wouldn't send their children with protectors biased against hybrids. Instead, a loving parent, like Max and Isabel's Antarian mother, would choose protectors who cared about Max and Isabel (and Michael and Tess), even in hybrid bodies, and even 50 years and beyond the 1947 landing. :) The aliens in the 1947 crash were protectors. They personally stopped the truck with the pods. One alien was struck by the truck. The alien put the safety of the pods ahead of his own safety. The aliens on the base in 1947 were also protectors. They personally killed the doctors who were interfering with the pods. They personally endangered their own lives to save the pods. The aliens who hid the pods were also protectors. They cared about the pods. If a person intentionally harms you, without provocation, that person is your enemy, no matter what they pretend. Both Kal and Nasedo intentionally harmed Max, first. Max didn't know who or where they were, until they personally and directly interfered in his life. Kal and Nasedo were each aggressors against Max/King Zan. They were his enemies. They had been programmed as punishment, in the past, to obey him, if they personally and directly interfered in his life. *Misha*, Max mistakenly thought that since Kal couldn't personally kill him, then Kal was his protector. However, Max didn't know that Kal got Max and Liz arrested in Utah, without provocation. Max hadn't known anything about Kal at all, at that time. Max was in the state of Utah, far away from California, where Kal lived, when Kal got Max arrested. Kal was the aggressor against Max. Kal wanted to prevent Max from flying away the spaceship. In the story of Roswell, the audience is shown many important things that aren't revealed to the main characters. :) _______________________________________________

xmag 0 5-08-2006 07:48 AM

Quote:
Both Kal and Nasedo intentionally harmed Max, first. Max didn't know who or where they were, until they personally and directly interfered in his life. Kal and Nasedo were each aggressors against Max/King Zan. They were his enemies. They had been programmed as punishment, in the past, to obey him, if they personally and directly interfered in his life.

See, this is where I have a problem : WHY on earth would a parent AND a queen, who is sending her children to a far away planet to protect her kids AND the leaders the antarians are counting on, ALSO send with them people like Cal and Nacedo whom you qualified as his enemies ? You don't send enemies with your kids, even if those enemies are programmed to obey them. In fact, you don't even let those people alive in the first place. So put them on the ship with the resurrected royal family ? It's just stupid.

Citrus and Vine 0 5-08-2006 05:09 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*
See, this is where I have a problem : WHY on earth would a parent AND a queen, who is sending her children to a far away planet to protect her kids AND the leaders the antarians are counting on, ALSO send with them people like Cal and Nacedo whom you qualified as his enemies ? You don't send enemies with your kids, even if those enemies are programmed to obey them. In fact, you don't even let those people alive in the first place. So put them on the ship with the resurrected royal family ? It's just stupid.

Hi *xmag*! :) Your country France doesn't allow the death penalty. In the United States, a jury recently voted life imprisonment, instead of death, for Zacarias Moussaoui, who had wanted to be part of the attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people on Sept. 11, 2001, in the United States. So, depending on the crime and the views of the people, some crimes aren't punished by death. Kal and Nasedo were punished on Antar for interfering in King Zan's life. They were programmed to obey him, if they ever directly and personally interfered in his life again. Neither Kal nor Nasedo were given a death sentence, either because their crimes hadn't been bad enough to warrant a death sentence, or because their justice system didn't allow the death penalty. We know that other aliens came to Earth, besides the aliens in the 1947 crash. For example, aliens got cells from Laurie's grandfather, who Michael looked like. So aliens were on Earth, before the 1947 crash. Aliens also arrived on Earth, after the 1947 crash. The Skins arrived on Earth in 1950. So we know that other alien vessels came to Earth, besides the ship that crashed in 1947. Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth in 1958/1959, eleven or twelve years after the 1947 crash. Kal mentioned the year 1958 specifically to Max. Kal killed the actress in 1959. Nasedo murdered Atherton in 1959. Nasedo began his silver handprint murders in 1959, in order to find Max/King Zan. For many years, he didn't know that the Royal Four were hidden in incubation pods in the rock formation. (30 years later, Nasedo finally found Tess, after the other three had already left.) Kal began his film career around 1958/1959. After Max and Liz got the diamond key needed to fly the spaceship, Kal got Max arrested in Utah, so that Max wouldn't fly the spaceship away. Kal wanted and needed the spaceship, in case he wanted or needed to leave Earth. We know more about Kal and Nasedo than the main characters know. We know that Kal knew exactly where the spaceship was on the base, even though the General didn't tell him. We know that Kal and Nasedo each intentionally harmed Max, without provocation. We know that Kal and Nasedo behaved as enemies to Max and the others. Kal and Nasedo had been captured and programmed as punishment on Antar to discourage them from ever interfering in King Zan's life. After Kivar murdered the Royal Four, Kal and Nasedo got out and came to Earth in 1958/1959, on the beautiful, fully functional, completely intact spaceship they hid under the convenience store in Utah. :ufo: ___________________________________________

Reggie 0 5-09-2006 07:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*
See, this is where I have a problem : WHY on earth would a parent AND a queen, who is sending her children to a far away planet to protect her kids AND the leaders the antarians are counting on, ALSO send with them people like Cal and Nacedo whom you qualified as his enemies ? You don't send enemies with your kids, even if those enemies are programmed to obey them. In fact, you don't even let those people alive in the first place. So put them on the ship with the resurrected royal family ? It's just stupid.

Word. Even if you don't use the death penalty (and I believe there's enough evidence that the alien society did), sending villians on the same ship into the same exile as your children is foolish. Put them on different planets; now, that's more like it! :D, And I don't take it as established that Kal (or any shapeshifter) had to obey direct orders from Max or any of the kids. Remember, their duty is to protect the kids; and if that conflicts with what the kids want then the kids have to obey their protectors; not vice versa. And if you are going to constrain the protectors to obey, then why such a cramped interpretation? Wouldn't a more general admonition be better, as well as easier? Frankly, I think that staying away from the podsters, and not serving them, was the best thing that the shapeshifters could have done for them. It taught them not to be spoiled brats; and might that not have been the problem originally? That King Zan & company were spoiled, and that's what caused the problems? Remember the things Nikolas said about Max...

Citrus and Vine 0 5-09-2006 07:47 PM
Hi *Reggie* and everyone! No one would bother to re-create people who had been spoiled brats on their planets. The people, who sent Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess to Earth, respected the four of them, in their previous lifetimes on Antar. :) The summit members so respected King Zan in his previous lifetime, that they wanted to meet with him, even though the effort used up great amounts of their resources. ___________________________________

Reggie 0 5-13-2006 05:52 PM
Hmm. How many of the worst brats have parents who think they're just adorable? That they can do no wrong? Isn't that at least part of what makes a child go bad in the first place? As for the summit, don't forget that they all wanted the end of the war. They probably were been willing to grasp at any possibility, however slight. Remember, K'var had a representative there; that might well have been enough reason to come. By the way, I was reminded rather forcefully this week just why I always wear my seat belts. I'm OK, just a couple of bruises, but the steering wheel on my car is bent, and so is the frame, the RF fender, and a few other important parts. :bawl: So, I'm now car shopping. :P Anyway, you've heard it all before, and besides it's the law; but I tell you from experience: Wear your seat belts !

Citrus and Vine 0 5-13-2006 09:07 PM
Hey *Reggie*! Great advice about wearing seat belts! Sorry about your vehicle. Glad you only sustained bruises and are looking forward to getting another car! :) In the story of Roswell, I appreciate that the jeep was later outfitted with a roll bar, and that the characters use their seat belts. :clap: :clap: Nicholas wasn't Kivar's representative. Nicholas showed up at the Summit meeting uninvited. Nicholas lied about representing Kivar. The Skins arrived on Earth in 1950, after the 1947 crash. The Skins were sent to Earth and forced to live in husks, as punishment from Kivar. The Skins had no way off Earth. Greer, at the end of /Harvest/, says they (the Skins) are all as good as dead. If Kivar had left the Skins on Earth with a spaceship or with the material and the expertise to build a spaceship, then the Skins wouldn't all have been as good as dead, after their husks were destroyed. If the Skins had been in good standing with Kivar, they could have been rescued by Kivar, after Courtney destroyed their new husks. But the Skins knew that Kivar wouldn't rescue them, and they knew they had no way off Earth, without the Granilith. That's why they needed the Granilith. Thus, we know that the Skins were Kivar's enemies, as well as enemies (with the exception of Courtney to Michael) of the Royal Four. We can also see at the Summit that Nicholas arrived uninvited by the Summit members. A woman Summit member turns aside, when Nicholas arrives uninvited. Nicholas knew about the meeting, because he located the Dupes, who were decoys. The decoy Dupes had been found and contacted by the Summit members, after the orbs led enemies and outsiders to the Dupes, after Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess used the orbs. The Summit members had wanted King Zan to rule, instead of Kivar. The Summit members hadn't been able to find peace with Kivar around, in the 50+ years, since the death of the King Zan. The Summit members expended great amounts of their resources, in the hopes that Max/King Zan could help them. Max wasn't in a position to be able to help them. He wisely refused Nicholas'phony offer. ``````````````````````````` Even the most doting of mothers knows whether or not her children are spoiled or are brats. No one would bother to re-create brats or spoiled children. No one would have any hope or expectation that brats or spoiled children could free them. A great deal of time and expense and planning was done to ensure the safety of the Royal Four. The people opposed to Kivar wanted the Royal Four to return to their home planet. The people of Antar knew that the Royal Four had been good people. Otherwise, the survivors on Antar wouldn't have bothered to re-create the Royal Four and protect them and hope for their return to free the people of Antar. :ufo: ________________________________________________

miss3cris 0 5-14-2006 03:36 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Reggie*
And I don't take it as established that Kal (or any shapeshifter) had to obey direct orders from Max or any of the kids. Remember, their duty is to protect the kids; and if that conflicts with what the kids want then the kids have to obey their protectors; not vice versa. And if you are going to constrain the protectors to obey, then why such a cramped interpretation? Wouldn't a more general admonition be better, as well as easier? Frankly, I think that staying away from the podsters, and not serving them, was the best thing that the shapeshifters could have done for them. It taught them not to be spoiled brats; and might that not have been the problem originally? That King Zan & company were spoiled, and that's what caused the problems? Remember the things Nikolas said about Max...

This is quite the discussion. I want in: From canon, we can see that the plan to stash the R4 on Earth didn't go down exactly as planned. They crashed. The protectors from the ship were injured, a few died and they lost the pods so I think it's safe to say that things went a little haywire on Earth. So, this leads me to believe that this plan was dashed together by ? (King Zan, the Queen Mother, idk) and they didn't know what was going to happen once the pods hatched. I think they expected (this drawn from the surprise from the other aliens they encountered) the R4 to remember Antar. Therefore, while they might've physically been children, they would've internally been adults. So, the argument that they wouldn't want to spoil the kids seems too far a stretch. I don't think they thought that far. Also a stretch,

Quote:
Originally Posted by * Citrus and Vine*
Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth in 1958/1959, eleven or twelve years after the 1947 crash.

Why should we believe that Kal and Nasedo aren't the protectors from 1947? I understand perfectly well that both Kal and Nasedo were terrible protectors and did act like enemies (based on your interpretation) at times, but it seems much too convoluted a storyline to say that there were these protectors in 1947 but these two who say they are them really aren't them but we're never going to show you or tell you what happened to the 1947 protectors. I'd just prefer to take Kal and Nasedo's word for it and believe that they, as *xmag* suggested, somehow lost interest in their jobs. If we believe that Kal (and Nasedo by extension) have to follow Max's direct orders and are incapable of causing him serious harm (I think there is a logical loophole with Kal "attacking" Max. Kal may have led Max to believe he was in serious danger when he attacked him, but obviously since Max lived and was only a little banged up he wasn't in mortal danger from Kal. Therefore, Kal has some freedom to attack unless directly ordered not to but cannot seriously harm Max.) then I think we should consider that all the protectors/shapeshifters come with this feature so in 1947 fresh off the boat, as it were, neither man would think that having to obey your leader is strange and would blindly follow their role as protector cut to decades later on this new world with its dangers and temptations (at least Kal was tempted) and your being able to make ALL your own decisions. You start questioning your loyalty and if you really want to go back to that life. You decide I never want to go back to that life and do everything in your power to make sure that the one person who can make you go back to that life never comes in contact with you. You have him arrested. You send a scary man to warn him away. You attack him. Also, if the other R4 could've ordered around Nasedo or any of the protectors, Tess would've been in more control of that relationship than she was, but she was portrayed as being the "daughter" to his "father" suggesting that he had more power in the relationship than her. ETA: In WO, Nicholas implied that not only is there a death penalty on Antar, but Zan liked to stage public executions ala the Roman Empire.

Reggie 0 5-14-2006 02:21 PM
Welcome, *miss3cris*! I see you joined FanForum in May 2006. Are you new to Roswell & FanForum, a returning user, or was your account wiped out somehow? (Just curious. :) ) *I think they expected (this drawn from the surprise from the other aliens they encountered) the R4 to remember Antar. Therefore, while they might've physically been children, they would've internally been adults. So, the argument that they wouldn't want to spoil the kids seems too far a stretch.* Well, remember that there are /two/ R4's, and one set of them does indeed remember Antar. They also exhibit the sort of amoral self-centeredness that one would expect of spoiled children, grown up. The ones that do /not/ remember got the "Mom-o-gram", which she made to tell the kids that they'd lived before. She obviously understood that these would not remember! And these kids, from NM, are the ones who are better raised, and more responsible as people. It seems to me that "Queen Mom" split her bets. On one hand, we have an R4 who are effectively the old aliens in new bodies. If they turned out well, great; they could win back their throne. If they were failures in this life, as before, then there is another R4. These would not remember Antar (at least at first), and be raised by humans, not royalty. This more-human set could have more wisdom and maturity, and thus be better able eventually to recover and rule. Which of these is the "official" R4? I say /both/, and let the better group succede. *Why should we believe that Kal and Nasedo aren't the protectors from 1947? (...) but it seems much too convoluted a storyline to say that there were these protectors in 1947; but these two who say they are them, really aren't them, but we're never going to show you or tell you what happened to the 1947 protectors. I'd just prefer to take Kal and Nasedo's word for it and believe that they, as xmag suggested, somehow lost interest in their jobs.* Well, under most circumstances I honor the application of Occam's Razor. But given that this is Roswell... :rolleyes: I've said before that I don't consider most of S3 as being true Roswell, but rather a cruel imitation of it. Therefore, I take Kal and everything associated with him with a grain of salt. In S1 we saw two different shapeshifters: "Tic-tac", who was benevolant but clandestine, who melted from one form to another and took a tic-tac afterwards; and Mr. Harding, who was cold and distant but direct, and "flashed" from one form to another without taking a tic-tac afterwards. /Kal didn't shapeshift/, so he could not be either of these; he's a /third/ shapeshifter! :goof: Tic-tac acted to protect the "Podsters" from the Special Unit, once they had been compromised by the impostor Guidance Councilor (whose name I forget just now). Remember he guided the Sherrif and kids away from contact with the Special Unit. He also kept an eye on Max & Liz as they slept, out in the desert, and "neutralized" Michael's adopted father Hank /after/ Michael revealed his powers and Hank proved to be a threat. It seems to me that he was doing his job, keeping an eye on the non-remembering R4 from a discreet distance. Mr. Harding had a different job, but he was still doing it as well. He was raising Tess seperately from the others. Since she could mindwarp, she wasn't really safe to let loose on an unknowing human family. Also, she had to be raised seperately because children raised together form a "family" bond even when they are not related. Note that the Isabel / Michael pairing was too close to incest, and the same thing would have happened in a Max / Tess pairing, even though they were supposed to be husband & wife again. So, Max got the human family upbringing; and Tess was raised by an alien... an alien who was always with her, not watching the other three in Roswell. (So Mr. Harding could not have been Tic-tac.) I don't believe for a minute the idea that Mr. H programmed Tess to betray the R4 to K'var. He killed them once, there is every reason (including Nikolas's comments) to believe he would do it again. But we can cover that later; and I still need to deal with "Cadmium X'. :rolleyes:

miss3cris 0 5-14-2006 07:12 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Reggie*
Welcome, miss3cris! I see you joined FanForum in May 2006. Are you new to Roswell & FanForum, a returning user, or was your account wiped out somehow? (Just curious. )

I'm not new to either Ros or FF. I had an account that I just don't remember either the screenname or password and was pretty much a lurker before now because Ros FF was an intimidating place back in the day.

Originally Posted by *Reggie*
They also exhibit the sort of amoral self-centeredness that one would expect of spoiled children, grown up.

Spoilt children or heirs to an absolute monarchy. :) Also, the dupes were not spoilt. They were neglected.

Originally Posted by *Reggie*
It seems to me that "Queen Mom" split her bets. On one hand, we have an R4 who are effectively the old aliens in new bodies. If they turned out well, great; they could win back their throne. If they were failures in this life, as before, then there is another R4. These would not remember Antar (at least at first), and be raised by humans, not royalty. *This more-human set could have more wisdom and maturity, and thus be better able eventually to recover and rule.* Which of these is the "official" R4? I say both, and let the better group succede.

First, I don't think that the human raised R4 was more wise or mature. Lonnie, as bad as she was, understood very well how to plot and exist in a politically complicated atmosphere. Max did not. In fact, in the end, he and the others proved to be very unconcerned with the important roles they had on their home planet preferring their human lives and that was not a mature or leader-like decision, imo. Second, I think the fact that Max/Isabel/Michael were raised by humans was a complete accident. Nasedo makes it clear that he lost them. They hatched earlier or Tess hatched late but he had intended to raise all four of them. The reason for this is clear. They got very attached to their human lives to the point that they rejected their status as R4. I do agree with the idea that the Queen Mother was splitting her bets. There was obviously something wrong with the original R4. They weren't the sweet and lightness that commoners (like Courtney and Whitaker) were told they were. There was a legend told involving grand love, tragic betrayal of loyalty, and all that junk then there was a more complicated truth. So, it makes sense that the Queen Mother, who was trying to preserve her family's power base, would make two sets (one that remembers more or less and one that does not) to see which one would turn out better. To bring us back to the Seal debate, this would mean that Zan would have to have the Seal. As for Nasedo vs. Tic-tac, this is a true puzzle. They do genuinely seem to be two different shapeshifters. Also, it seems that Tic-tac knew where the Ros set was while Nasedo did not. What is the reason for this? There seemed to be a hell of a lot going on behind the scenes with the shapeshifters.

Originally Posted by *Reggie*
I don't believe for a minute the idea that Mr. H programmed Tess to betray the R4 to K'var.

Pure BS, imo. Whitaker killed Nasedo. She tried to kill Tess and Isabel too. Tess killed all the other Skins except Nicholas who seemed to survive the attack. He had her kidnapped in NYC, an event that she didn't fully remember. It was obvious that the only programming going on was Nicholas programming Tess to betray the R4. Oh, and I forget who mentioned it, but I do think that due to how the most alien of aliens acted that the Antarians were like the Klingons and were a warrior based society.

Misha 0 5-14-2006 09:18 PM
Hey guys!! I'm warming up to a discussion here :D *Reggie*, though I do understand where you are coming from, I don't think the former or the present R4 were spoiled to that extent. First of all, let's take the former. I can believe that the Queen Mother -or Zan himself- planned all of this in anticipation for any eventuallity -might be a lot of stretch, but okay, let's say it could- but I don't see a Rebellion forming, maintaining and still fighting 50 years later if their rulers were idiots, or spoiled brats (is it spoilt? sorry, English is my second language... :look: ). This Rebellion is strong enough for Khivar to want to come heremin search of them, play the Summit to make them look bad, try to kill them, etc., etc., etc.. No, this Rebellion wants Khivar out and Zan back. Most of the info we got about their previous lives came from enemy sources, which are not exactly the best out there, or that are shaped according to this group's perspective. Larek said Zan wanted to do too much too soon, and that Khivar took it all away, and Larek did seem sad about that. Courtney trusted that Michael was good enough to keep the "brink of a Golden Age" going on, something that Zan was failing to do, at least according to this group. I know that kings can be idiots, selfcentered, yadda, yadda, yadda, but it does sound, at least sometimes, that Zan and co. were trying to do right. At least right enough for people to build a legend around them and still be waiting after 50 years. So, back to the big scheme. I do agree with *miss3cris* that the plan including being raised by Humans is not coherent. First of all, that would imply a very large understanding of Human nature, and that would lead to "what the hell am I thinking sending our only hope there?" :lol: Okay, rant there. What I mean is that, with that in mind, look where Michael ended. Max and Isabel could have ended everywhere, and have crappy lives. What if their families decided to move out of the country? If their parent divorced and took each children their own separate ways? What if Michael and Isabel had, indeed, ended up as siblings, and without any memory, Max and Isabel had thought they had a chance? Besides, 1947 society has little to do with 1989 society. And that applies to most of the whole world. So, if it was ever a plan, it would have had been done 40 years later. It was too much of a risky bet, with no unclear outcome at all. I think that Nasedo did lose them, and it was never intended for the R4 to be raised as humans, get attach to consider this their home planet and to have no idea how things were on their planet. If they are expected to lead, they have to know who they are leading. The whole thing with the memories might as well be a flaw. The memories are clearly there -very conviniently popping up for Michael in /Interruptus/, but okay...:rolleyes: - but they are just not doing all those retrieval techniques or whatever. Or maybe they are supposed to remember later in life, when they are matture enough to understand what they are remembering and know what to do with it. By the way, *miss3cris*, totally loved your line about the dupes being neglected! :nod: They knew how powerful they were, so they used it to their own adventage, specially on a place that was so full of dangers like New York where they had to fend for themselves. They were brats, but they were not stupid. So, for me, the whole two sets thing being separated was due to choices taken here, on Earth, between 1947 and 1989, for reasons unknown to us (don't you just love fanfiction??). Kal seriously forgot about going to Antar, and pretty much hoped that the R4 of both sides forgot about it, or at least forgot about him. Nasedo, in the other hand, didn't. Was the NasedoPact true or not, that's a whole other discussion, but I don't think this was all planned out when the Antarians decided to make the Hybrids. Things just happened. The Shapeshifters thing... Tic-tac is still a very popular idea, and he could have never been Kal because Kal insisted he hadn't shifted for the past 30 years. Clearly, we can go with Tic-tac being a third shapeshifter. We know from Pierce that there were four an that only two survived, but who knows? Maybe there were more the Special Unit did not know about, maybe this third came before, later, whatever. Still, it's a wild card here. There's so little we know about shapeshifters that almost anything can be applied. I do believe, though, that Nasedo was tic-tac. Maybe it's a little thin, but Maxsedo's line to Liz that he had been so many people she had no idea works for me and believing he was Margollis, the guy in SH, and the one to kill Hank. Now I feel like I'm starting to rant again... :look: Misha

Citrus and Vine 0 5-15-2006 01:47 AM
:wave: Hi *Misha*, *miss3cris*, *Reggie*, and everyone! Do you think that you personally could ever lose interest in caring about the people you currently care about, even 50 years into the future? Kal and Nasedo weren't protectors. They never had been protectors. Both Kal and Nasedo were enemies of King Zan. They were punished on Antar for having interfered in King Zan's life on Antar. To discourage Kal or Nasedo from ever again interferring in King Zan's life, they had been programmed to have to obey his direct orders. They were also programmed to be unable to personally kill him. After Kivar murdered the Royal Four, and after the Royal Four had been re-created and sent to Earth, Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth, around 1958-1959, on the beautiful, fully functional spaceship they hid under the convenience store in Utah. *miss3cris*, you ask, what happened to the real protectors, if Kal and Nasedo hadn't been part of the 1947 mission. The real guardian protectors of the Royal Four took the pods from the military base. The real protectors hid the Royal Four in the rock formation, in front of the Granilith chamber. The real protecters took the decoy set of pods (the Dupes) to New York City, and placed them in the sewers, to be found by enemies and outsiders looking for the Royal Four. The real guardian protectors buried one orb in the desert. (The U.S. government got the other orb.) The real protectors notified Max and Isabel's Antarian mother that the Royal Four had arrived on Earth. The real protectors also notified Max and Isabel's Antarian mother that their enemies and the enemies of the Royal Four had arrived on Earth and currently looked human. They also notified her that the Royal Four's memories might be impaired, from injuries sustained from the crash and from damage done by humans using scalpels to investigate the pods, before the real protectors killed the humans. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother recorded a message, in the event that the Royal Four were able to find the orbs and activate them. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother and the other loyal Antarians knew that the orbs could no longer be safely used as a two-way communication system, since enemies that arrived on Earth could intercept any message. When Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess activated the orbs, they received the recorded message, telling them who they were, and warning them that their enemies had arrived on Earth, and that they would only know their enemies, by the evil within. Kal and Nasedo were evil people. They murdered innocent people for their own gain. They were bad, evil, self-centered people. They didn't help other people. They harmed and murdered people without provocation. They didn't protect anyone. They were evil people, who had each interfered in King Zan's life on Antar and had each been punished and programmed for their crimes. Nasedo wanted to sequentially capture the Royal Four. Kal wanted to keep Max from the spaceship. Kal knew that the spaceship could fly and that Max could fly away the ship by himself. Max and Isabel's Antarian mother said nothing about guardians or protectors in her message. If any protectors had continued to live, they could have told Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess about their lives on Antar and how they had been killed and then re-created and then sent to Earth . By the time Max and Isabel's Antarian mother recorded her message, she had received news that all the guardian protectors were no longer around to explain things to the Royal Four. That is why her message explained to the four who they were. Maybe the real protectors succumbed to injuries from the crash, after they hid the pods and buried the one orb. Pierce reported that two live aliens had been captured. One escaped. Maybe the alien who escaped and the other real protectors were later captured and/or murdered by the people who had the pentagon-shaped devices. Maybe the real protectors were killed by the Skins or by humans. Maybe the real guardian protectors died from Earth accidents or diseases. :ufo: ________________________________

xmag 0 5-16-2006 09:22 AM

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Your country France doesn't allow the death penalty.

The death penalty existed in France until 1979.

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In the United States, a jury recently voted life imprisonment, instead of death, for Zacarias Moussaoui, who had wanted to be part of the attacks that killed nearly 3,000 people on Sept. 11, 2001, in the United States. So, depending on the crime and the views of the people, some crimes aren't punished by death.

There is a difference between not executing people and punishing them. If Nacedo and Cal were punished for their past actions, then they should have been sent to jail, or on exile on a far away planet, but not sent with the precious royal family. I don't see Moussaoui being "punished" for his crimes by walking freely around the survivors of the terrorist attack in 2001. On the contrary, he has been sent in jail for the rest of his life. Now, that's logical.

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Kal and Nasedo were punished on Antar for interfering in King Zan's life.

Where, in the show, was it said that Kal and Nacedo, in their previous lives, did such a thing ? That they didn't like their king, why not ? I don't like the french president, either. But I don't remember them saying that they had done something to the king, on Antar, which got them punished.

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They were programmed to obey him, if they ever directly and personally interfered in his life again.

Or maybe they were programmed because it was the tradition ? Like the eunuchs with the women of the harem, in the mueslin countries.

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Neither Kal nor Nasedo were given a death sentence, either because their crimes hadn't been bad enough to warrant a death sentence, or because their justice system didn't allow the death penalty.

Are we talking about the show or a fanfic :confused: ? Because I don't remember where, in the show, Nacedo and Kal said that they had been some kind of criminals or rebels who had been punished by being sent to Earth with the R4. The problem I have with Nacedo is that the guy was killed by the skins. Didn't Whittaker say so ? So why kill a guy who is on their side ? Unless he was never on their side. He might not have liked the R4 or the humans, but he told them NOT TO use the orbs because of the enemies they might alert. He was killed by his so-called allees. There is something fishy, here. That's just not logical.

Citrus and Vine 0 5-16-2006 02:00 PM
Hi *xmag*! :wave: Yes, Whitaker, a Skin, told Isabel that she had killed Nasedo. Nasedo and the Skins weren't allies. The Skins didn't work for Kivar. The Skins were exiled to Earth and forced to wear husks they hated. The Skins wanted the Granilith, so they could leave Earth. Nasedo wasn't a Skin. He hadn't been exiled to Earth. Nasedo was a shape-shifter, who arrived on Earth after the Skins. The Skins arrived in 1950. Kal and Nasedo arrived around 1958-1959. Nasedo may have been an ally of Kivar. Or Nasedo may have been working independently. Nasedo wasn't an ally of the Skins. Nasedo and Kal didn't work together, either, except to come to Earth together, on a ship that had been one of King Zan's ships. :) *xmag*, I think your position is that if Kal and Nasedo had committed crimes against King Zan, then they should have been executed, exiled, or imprisoned forever. I think we both agree that some civilized people consider the death penalty to be an unacceptable punishment for crime. As we have both noted, France and other modern countries forbid the death penalty. Antar seems to have had a monarchy government, until the Royal Four were murdered. Antar also had very advanced technology, compared to Earth. Antarians could travel to other planets and to other solar systems. So, I think we are both currently in agreement that any crimes Kal or Nasedo committed on Antar wouldn't have had to be punished by death. Antarians were able to think of other punishments and controls, in response to crime. Kal and Nasedo didn't receive the death penalty for their crimes. Some crimes don't rise to the level of being punished by death. Or, King Zan and his people may have considered the death penalty to be unacceptable. Kal and Nasedo were punished by being programmed to have to obey King Zan's orders, if they ever again directly and personally interfered in his life. They were also programmed to be unable to personally kill him. Kal and Nasedo may have been exiled to another planet or imprisoned with a life sentence, as well as being programmed. Sometimes, people escape prisons. Sometimes, prisoners are rehabilitated or pardoned. Sometimes, prisoners are released, after having served time. Programming Kal and Nasedo would have been a necessary part to protect the King against possible escape, or to protect the King, until Kal or Nasedo proved to be rehabilitated. After King Zan was murdered by Kivar, Kivar may have released Kal and Nasedo from their exile or life imprisonment. Or, after Kal's or Nasedo's term of imprisonment had been served, and they were then released for their time served. Max and the others think that Kal and Nasedo were part of the 1947 mission. But Kal and Nasedo weren't part of the 1947 mission. They weren't protectors. They were bad people, who had been punished. We, the audience, know more about Kal and Nasedo than Max and the others know. We know that Kal and Nasedo did many things against Max/King Zan (and the others) than what the main characters know. Kal and Nasedo weren't part of the mission that brought the pods to Earth. Kal and Nasedo arrived later, around 1958-1959. They arrived on another ship that once belonged to King Zan. They hid that ship under the convenience store in Utah, so they could use it at their convenience. After Max found the ship in Utah, Kal got Max arrested. Kal then flew the ship to the military base. He knew exactly where the ship was, even though the General didn't tell him. Kal managed to keep Max out of the meeting with the General. Kal didn't want Max to know that he (Kal) knew where the spaceship was, without the General telling him. Kal was an experienced manipulator. Max was young and inexperienced. :ufo: _____________________________

shapeshifter 0 5-16-2006 08:24 PM
Great discussion...I think. Just a passing tidbit of my 2 cents worth to add: I get the overall impression that the shapeshifters weren't really allies with anyone. It would be interesting to explore the dynamics, cause & effect, etc. of the shapeshifters having no free will to obey Max. Is it ever established that they have to obey any other Royals? I'm thinking of the shapeshifter offing Hank, which saved Michael's secret from being revealed, but also put him under suspicion. And shapeshifting into Max ostensibly to lure Pierce away from the real Max, but then using Liz to lure the real Max into Pierce's snare. Of course it was probably just the writers trying to keep us guessing, which begs the question of whether throwing continuity to the wind is just a style, perhaps based on the evolution of various superheroes in film, comic, book, etc.

miss3cris 0 5-16-2006 09:34 PM

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Originally Posted by * Citrus and Vine*
I think we both agree that some civilized people consider the death penalty to be an unacceptable punishment for crime. As we have both noted, France and other modern countries forbid the death penalty. Antar seems to have had a monarchy government, until the Royal Four were murdered. Antar also had very advanced technology, compared to Earth. Antarians could travel to other planets and to other solar systems. So, I think we are both currently in agreement that any crimes Kal or Nasedo committed on Antar wouldn't have had to be punished by death. Antarians were able to think of other punishments and controls, in response to crime.

What does being technologically advanced have to do with socially enlightened policies? While I appreciate your obviously well thought out ideas on the mythology behind the show, I pretty much find your theories to be ludicrious as they are not based on a scrap of evidence from the show. The truth is that we have very little and sometimes conflicting information to go on in constructing ideas about the Sci-Fi aspects of the show so we must rely on common sense, human history (because altho the mythology concerns an alien society, it was written by humans), and those bare scraps from the show. You're pretty much ignoring the show. You intersperce your argument with facts from the show then make wild jumps to theory without explaining your process of connecting the facts to your theory. For example, above you state that Antar was a monarchy before the R4 were killed and were a technologically advanced society. These are facts based from the show. Then, you repeat your assertion that Kal and Nacedo were punished for interfering in Zan's life. How do the two assertions connect? They don't.

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Originally Posted by * Citrus and Vine*
The Skins didn't work for Kivar. The Skins were exiled to Earth and forced to wear husks they hated. The Skins wanted the Granilith, so they could leave Earth.

Why should we believe that Nicholas was lying about being Kivar's second-in-command on Earth especially when Lonnie remembered him and the other delegates at the summit remembered him and believed him? They're the leaders of the other worlds that Kivar is warring with. They better than anyone ought to know who can and can't speak for him. Also, at silverhandprint.com, there was a diary from Whitaker's pov that clearly states that the Skins were sent to Earth by Kivar to search for the R4. In summary, based soley on facts from the show and it's creators, they most certainly did work for Kivar.

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Originally Posted by * Citrus and Vine*
Kal and Nasedo were evil people. They murdered innocent people for their own gain. They were bad, evil, self-centered people. They didn't help other people. They harmed and murdered people without provocation. They didn't protect anyone.

Nasedo protected the R4. He raised Tess. He killed for them. He covered up Pierce's murder for them. He dismantled the Special Unit for them. He died fighting Whitaker for them. He wasn't a pleasant man. He didn't like the humans. He didn't like how human Max/Isabel/Michael were and this caused him to show a certain amount of disrespect for Max (and the thing with kidnapping Liz), but he did what he thought was best to keep them safe and preparing for their return to Antar. Kal and Nasedo were soldiers. They killed easily, but I think this would be a vital quality in men sent to protect the future of a planet. They met (what they saw as) deadly force with deadly force. I'm not saying they were always right to do and kill who they did, but they seemed to see things in a very back and white manner. This just seemed to be their way.

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Originally Posted by * Citrus and Vine*
Do you think that you personally could ever lose interest in caring about the people you currently care about, even 50 years into the future?

The simple answer to this question is yes. I've been friends with people, cared about them then something happens between us or a series of events happen that leads me to believe that I was mistaken in caring about this person and counting this person as my friend so after a time of reflection if I decide I am right to reconsider my relationship with them I end this relationship and I don't care about this person two years later and in fifty years I probably won't even remember this person. So, yes. Also, 1. This question presumes that the protectors /ever/ cared about the R4. 2. I never suggested this because I don't think of the protectors as parents, but soldiers and bodyguards. I don't think they care for the R4. I think they might traditionally hold special reverence for them (like Courtney for Rath but toned down). Also, as *xmag* suggested, I think the shapeshifters as a race are probably the traditional protectors/guards of the royalty on Antar. Because they hold this position, they are required as a policy to be programmed to be absolutely loyal to the word of the King. This is, of course, a false loyalty but one you probably wouldn't question surrounded by those in the same position as you (and if you did, you might want to keep it quiet seeing how the shapeshifters handle problems) but would question after fifty years of not being compelled to this loyalty. This theory is based on the fact that Kal had to obey Zan, my limited knowledge of the tradition of elite military guard for leaders (i.e. CIA), and Kal's comments about preferring life on Earth to Antar. It says it no where in the show. If you don't want to believe it, fine. But this makes a lot more sense to me than overly complicated theories where we have to disregard almost everything from the show. This is Ros not X-Files.

miss3cris 0 5-16-2006 09:42 PM

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Originally Posted by * shapeshiftter*
I'm thinking of the shapeshifter offing Hank, which saved Michael's secret from being revealed, but also put him under suspicion.

Then he shifted into Hank for Valenti to take the suspicion off Michael.

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Originally Posted by * shapeshifter* And shapeshifting into Max ostensibly to lure Pierce away from the real Max, but then using Liz to lure the real Max into Pierce's snare.

I think Nasedo was trying to kill Liz. He saw her as a threat to the plan to have the R4 return to Antar. How was Zan supposed to return to take back and rule his planet (nevermind the romantic aspect b/c Nasedo didn't strike me as a shipper :)) if he had this "soulmate" on Earth? (He was right, btw. The R4 didn't return because they were too wrapped up in their human lives.) So, he tried to eliminate her by getting Pierce to do it because he knew it would be against Max's wishes and he, although he wisely never told Max, couldn't do that.

Citrus and Vine 0 5-16-2006 11:07 PM
Hi *miss3cris*! :wave: *miss3cris*, you state that Lonnie remembered Nicholas. However, Lonnie wasn't the real Vilandra. Lonnie was duped into thinking she had been Vilandra. She and the other Dupes weren't given the Granilith. Lonnie and the other Dupes were decoys, who were located by enemies and outsiders, after Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess used the orbs, which generated a signal around Earth. That signal and its interception are shown at the end of /Destiny/, the last episode of Season One. Lonnie probably lied about remembering Nicholas, in order to convince Nicholas to take her with him. Lonnie wasn't like Isabel, the real Vilandra. Isabel cared about other people and helped them. Lonnie assisted Rath killing her brother Zan. The real Vilandra hadn't killed her brother. Kivar lied about Vilandra killing King Zan and betraying her people. Michael remembered that Kivar had lied about wanting peace, and then murdered everyone. The real Vilandra hadn't killed her brother. Lonnie, though, was part of New-York-Zan's murder. Nicholas wasn't Kivar's second-in-command on Earth. Nicholas was forced to wear the husk of a prepubescent teen. He wasn't valued by Kivar. He was punished by having to wear a husk that women wouldn't be romantically attracted to. He looked like a school kid. He couldn't go to places on Earth, where only adults are allowed. He couldn't blend in with adults. He wasn't a commander on Earth or anywhere. Nicholas didn't look the way he looked on Antar. He didn't announce his name to the other delegates. Nicholas arrived at the Summit uninvited. Nasedo didn't protect the Royal Four. He raised Tess. He told Tess that Kivar was her ally. But Kivar wasn't Tess'ally. Kivar wanted to kill her child. People who are allies don't kill the loved children of their allies. Nasedo used Tess for a while, to help him find Max, Michael, and Isabel. Nasedo got the Special Unit disbanded, so Max, Michael, and Isabel would trust him and so he would have an excuse to return to Roswell, so he could again attempt to get the Royal Four captured. Nasedo wrote a note to Tess, telling her that he was her true protector. Nasedo didn't tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the beautiful, completely intact spaceship or about the diamond key needed to operate it. Nasedo didn't tell Tess the spaceship location or the location of the diamond key, even though he stated in his note that he knew he might die. Nasedo didn't tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the Granilith. Nasedo didn't translate the book for Tess (or Max or Michael or Isabel). He didn't tell them how they had been killed on Antar. He didn't give Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess essential information they needed to know, in the event of his death. Nasedo was Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess'enemy. *miss3cris*, you say that you think of Kal and Nasedo as bodyguards, rather than protectors. But neither Kal nor Nasedo protected Max with their lives. Neither Kal nor Nasedo lived in the same home as Max. They lived miles away from Max. Kal lived over 900 miles away from Max. Neither Kal nor Nasedo were were bodyguards. They didn't protect. The Skins knew that the Royal Four had been sent to Earth, and that the Royal Four had the Granilith. Kivar may have wanted them to give him the Granilith, but the Skins wanted the Granilith for themselves. Whitaker and Nicholas each tried to get the Granilith for themselves, without enlisting the help of the other Skins. Nicholas only used the other Skins to help him get the Granilith, after he failed to get it his first try. The Skins were marooned on Earth, without any way off Earth. That is fact in the story. At the end of /Harvest/, Greer states that the Skins are all as good as dead. If the Skins had been in good standing with Kivar, Kivar would have left a spaceship for them to leave Earth, in order to give him the Granilith or in order to save their lives, in case of disasters like having their new husks destroyed. Or Kivar, if he cared about the Skins or trusted the Skins to give him the Granilith, would have left the Skins with the resources and expertise to build a spaceship for themselves, so they could leave Earth and give him the Granilith, when they found it. But Kivar didn't leave the Skins with a spaceship or the means to build one. The Skins were exiles on Earth. The Skins were sent to Earth as punishment. They were forced to live in husks they hated. In the car on the way to Roswell, Rath reported that Zan could have ruled a planet, but he didn't want to. Rath said the Summit members didn't want just the royal three, they wanted the King. That is in the story. The Summit members wanted King Zan—not Kivar. The Summit members hadn't invited Kivar, or a representative from Kivar, to the Summit in New York. The Summit members hadn't been able to find peace with Kivar in power, after he murdered the Royal Four. The Summit members wanted King Zan, not Kivar. Nicholas arrived at the Summit uninvited. He found out about the Summit from the Dupes. He sent Lonnie, Rath, and Ava to Roswell to get Max, so he could trick Max into giving him the Granilith at the Summit. If Nicholas had been working for Kivar, he could have had Kivar send troops to capture Max and the others in Roswell and get the Granilith from them there. We know that Kivar later came to Rowell to get Isabel. We know that Kivar wanted more than the Granilith. Kal and Nasedo avoided Max as much as possible. Neither of them were protectors or bodyguards. Nasedo watched Max, Michael, and Isabel for months. He burned a photograph of them on the library lawn in February. He didn't tell Michael or Isabel who he was, until May, after Max was captured. He didn't warn Max, Michael, or Isabel about Pierce. He didn't kill Pierce, while Pierce was in Roswell, as Deputy Fisher. Nasedo could have murdered Pierce as easily as he killed the agent in downtown Roswell, in broad daylight. But he didn't, not even when he stood right next to Pierce in the white room. Nasedo's goal wasn't to kill Pierce. Nasedo's goal was to sequentially capture the Royal Four. Kal's goal was to keep Max from the spaceship. Both Kal and Nasedo were evil people. Each of them knowingly and intentionally harmed Max and the others, without provocation. Hi *shapeshifter*! :wave: No, Nasedo and Kal didn't obey other Royals. Michael told Nasedo to leave the white room with them, but Nasedo didn't. Tess told Nasedo to never leave her alone like that again, but Nasedo told her that he now had four of them to watch. Nasedo left Tess alone in Roswell, throughout the summer. Nasedo, who some people call Tic-Tac, didn't save Michael or preserve Michael's identity, by killing Hank. Hank was drunk, when Michael used his powers against Hank. Hank was a well-known drunk. No one had believed Hank's story about Michael's powers, when Michael was a child, and no one would have believed Hank in the present day either. In addition, as Isabel noted, it was unlikely that Hank would even remember what had happened in the morning, since Hank was so drunk. Nasedo took Hank away, made agonized cries and shot gun blasts in the trailer, in order to alert neighbors, in order to frame Michael for Hank's disappearance. Nasedo (also referred to as Tic-Tac) wanted Michael to be captured and held by humans. After Michael was completely exonerated in Hank's disappearance, Nasedo, aka Tic-Tac, pretended to the sheriff that Hank was still alive. Nasedo then buried Hank's body, rather than destroying the body or making Hank's death look like an accident. Nasedo (Tic-Tac) wanted to be able to frame Michael for Hank's death at a later time. Topolsky escaped to Roswell, with the second orb, before Nasedo could get Michael arrested a second time. After Tess told Nasedo that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her family, and showed that she trusted Max and not Nasedo, that same day Nasedo immediately framed Max for all the silver handprint murders. If Max hadn't been captured at the carnival, he would have been captured later. If Max hadn't followed the clues to the carnival, Nasedo would have murdered Liz at the carnival, with witnesses, so that Max would have been captured later. Nasedo knew that Max loved Liz and had saved her life. He knew that Max would try to save her, after he kidnapped Liz. Nasedo knew that Maria had seen him take Liz. Nasedo left clues for Max to follow Liz to the carnival. At the roadside where Nasedo dumped the agent's body, Nasedo heard that Max knew that Liz was taken by a shapeshifter, who looked like Max. Nasedo then made certain the Roswell police department received a picture of him in Max's form at the gas station. (Nasedo had been in the Roswell police department, when he gave the FBI camera to the Sheriff. Nasedo, as Ed Harding, was able to scope out the equipment in the police department.) Max and law enforcement followed the clues to the carnival. Nasedo framed Max for all the silver handprint crimes, in order to get Max captured and held by humans. After Max was captured at the carnival, Nasedo couldn't kill Liz, while he was in Max's form, because then law enforcement would know that the captured Max wasn't the Max who murdered Liz. Nasedo couldn't kill Liz on the bus, because someone might have seen him in Max's form taking Liz onto the bus. Nasedo wanted law enforcement to think that they had captured the evil alien Max. Nasedo's goal was to get the Royal Four sequentially captured and held by humans. Nasedo may have been working for Kivar. Or Nasedo may have been working for himself alone. :ufo: _____________________________

Roswelldesertsky 05-17-2006 05:02 AM
Hey Everyone! I'm quite sure, the following issue has been discussed yet, but I seriously needed your help.;) I've been thinking about some tattoos lately and of course they should refer to Roswell. This thought made me take a look at the antarian letters, but I cannot really find a system. I'm convinced you are able to help me out with that, thanks a lot in advance!:wave:

Misha 0 5-17-2006 09:36 AM
Hey guys! And the discussion is getting looooooonger :D *Roswelldesertsky*, what do you mean system? :look: The closest thing I can come up -assuming this is what you want of course- is to take a closer look to the credits in the beginning of season 3. You know, how the alien names turn into our alphabet :D Otherwise... uummm...eeerrrr.... :confused: *shapeshifter*, nope... it was never stablished if the shapeshifters had to obey any other Royal. I don't think so, because Tess didn't seem to be able to command over Nasedo, for instance. Besides, I once had two bosses, and when they contradicted each other, it was hell... so I can't really imagine a shapeshifter in that position... ;) (yeah, rant...) But, it wouldn't be practical to have that kind of domain shared among the Royal Family. I think the shapeshifters were bodyguards, but that the priority was first and always the King. The whole thing about Nasedo taking Liz. I think it was as he said: Liz was just bait and a hostage. Granted, he didn't care about if Liz survived or not, and he didn't believe her when she told him that she and Max had seen into each other's souls. The notion was laughable to him, knowing that Max already had a wife and destiny and all that. Now, /Max/ was *not* supposed to be there. In fact, the only reason why Max and co. could find Nasedo was because they were following the Sheriff. I don't think Nasedo spent an afternoon thinking: "So, I kidnapped Liz, and leave all these clues behind that the local sheriff is going to connect with me /and/ Max's friend... that blondy... Maria, yeah, is going to come up with this plan to tell the Sheriff -who is already on the alert- that the real Max kidnapped Liz so please find him. And /then/, Max is going to bump into Pierce outside the Sheriff's office---" See what I mean? :look: Too many things happened that were not in Nasedo's control. I do believe he wanted to lure Pierce and I do agree Nasedo was way too extremist on his plan, but he wanted Pierce away from Max, and he was really surprised to see Max in the Mirror Maze. So, nope, I don't think Nasedo had this big scheme to trap Max. Even if he was working against Max, this whole thing with Pierce and all... it just happened. Too many unknown variables were in game here. Besides, I do think that the NasedoPact was fake, but that's a whole other story... :blush: *miss3criss* ditto to caring about someone 50 years from now! Definitely, a big, fat YES! You stop caring about people, ideas, situations, etc., etc., etc. in a shorter period of time... Especially if one is leaving a planet in war, and suddenly you find yourself with 50 years of freedom. And if the Skins are not working for Khivar... then.. no, nothing makes sense :look: They are working for Khivar for all we got to see. I can even stretch it by saying that maybe the Skins -or these particular group- were mercenaries or an elite group or some sort of bounty hunters, but they still would be working for Khivar. Now I have to go back to work.... :lurking: Misha Roswelldesertsky 05-17-2006 10:15 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Misha*
Hey guys! And the discussion is getting looooooonger :D *Roswelldesertsky*, what do you mean system? :look: The closest thing I can come up -assuming this is what you want of course- is to take a closer look to the credits in the beginning of season 3. You know, how the alien names turn into our alphabet :D Misha

That's exactly what I did, but it does not make any sense to me. The amount of symbols correspond to the amount of our letters, which made me think that every symbol stands for one letter.But then I compared the symbols from different names (e.g. Jason Behr,Brendan Fehr and Katherine Heigle) and realized that many letters,which appear in all names, are translated with different symbols...which destroyed my theory of course...

Citrus and Vine 0 5-17-2006 12:52 PM
*Roswelldesertsky*, I love your name! :) It took Alex using a supercomputer in Las Cruces to decipher the symbols. So, as far as I know, Roswell fans without supercomputers haven't been able to assign meanings to individual symbols. :) *Misha* and *miss3cris*, you each say that you can imagine losing interest in the people you currently care about, 50 years into the future, especially if you went to another planet. So then you wouldn't be the type of person to be selected to be protectors for a mission that would extend 50 years into the future, on another planet. Not every person could be a protector. Neither Nasedo nor Kal had the personalities to protect other people. Both Nasedo and Kal were greedy, selfish people, abusive people, unsuitable to be protect anyone. In the United States, the military screens people, before they are accepted into the military. Certain personality types are rejected for service. We know people who are loyal to their cause, no matter how many years, no matter what the distance or hardship. We know certain personality types are good guardians and good protectors Kal and Nasedo had posh lives on Earth. The got everything they wanted. They had no hardship. They lacked for nothing. But neither Kal nor Nasedo were or ever had been loyal to Max. Kal and Nasedo lacked the personalities to be protectors. The Antarians had genetic engineering. They could combine factors to make hybrids. They created pods and hibernation systems. The Antarians knew about people's essences. The Antarians certainly wouldn't have chosen people with selfish, greedy, abusive essences to accompany the pods to Earth. We see from the actions of the aliens in the 1947 crash that those aliens risked their lives to save and protect the pods. Those aliens were true protectors. Kal and Nasedo weren't. *Misha*, you say that you don't think that Nasedo had a whole big scheme to trap Max. But you don't explain why Nasedo didn't kill Pierce in downtown Roswell. You don't explain why Nasedo left clues to lure people to the carnival. You don't explain why Nasedo created noises and shotgun blasts in Hank's trailer, when we are shown that Nasedo easily, quickly and quietly murdered the agent in downtown Roswell, in broad daylight. You don't explain why Nasedo didn't kill Pierce in the white room, even though he stood right next to Pierce. You don't explain why Nasedo refused to leave with Max and Michael from the white room, to protect them, since Nasedo knew that Michael wasn't an agent. You don't explain why Nasedo burned a photograph of Max, Michael, and Isabel on the library lawn in February. Burning someone's photo is a sign of disrespect and disregard. You don't explain why Nasedo didn't warn Max, Michael, or Isabel that Pierce was in Roswell as Deputy Fisher. You don't explain why Nasedo didn't tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about their pasts on Antar or about Kivar murdering them. You don't explain why Nasedo didn't translate the book or tell Max, Michael, and Isabel about the ship hidden in the basement in Utah or the diamond key needed to operate it. Nasedo and Kal were greedy, selfish, abusive people. They weren't protectors. They were enemies of Max/King Zan. They had been punished for crimes against King Zan in their lives on Antar. As long as they stayed away from Max/King Zan and didn't directly and personally interfere in his life, they could do anything they wanted. :ufo: ___________________________ Roswelldesertsky 05-17-2006 04:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*
*Roswelldesertsky*, I love your name! :) It took Alex using a supercomputer in Las Cruces to decipher the symbols. So, as far as I know, Roswell fans without supercomputers haven't been able to assign meanings to individual symbols. :) ___________________________

Thanks you.:) Do I get you right then,assuming that the Roswell producers did not take it to seriously with the season 3 opening credits?I mean,did they just use /any/ symbols in order to make the credits look more "mysterious"?Did they not pay attention to the correctness?Because if they did, they would be in the possesion of a "key",which brings me to the conclusion that it cannot be too difficult.

Misha 0 5-17-2006 07:02 PM
:lmao: Well, *Roswelldesertsky* I seriously doubt whoever made those credits thought anyone was going to pay such close attention to them... And yeah, I was mad that none of the actor's name has one single "M" on them, because now I can't write "Misha" in Antarian! :pout: But, seriously, I don't think they have any meaning, or code, or even a continuity from one name to the other. But just in case you /do/ find something, let us know!!! :cool: Oh, and I was thinking while coming home that this all debate wheather if Kal and Nasedo were the original shapeshifter, here are some hints: 1. Nasedo told Michael, Tess and Isabel that he knew Eagle Rock Military Base intimately because he had escaped once. Pierce told Max that -he believed- the one named Nasedo was the one who escape from the White Room in 1950. 2. Kal tells Max at the end of /Control/:

Quote:
Max: I came all this way to find you. I need your help. You're our protector. Kal: don't call me that. Yeah... I was put on that ship to protect you. But that was 50 years ago.

So, yeeeeeeaahhhhh... you could dismiss this whole thing and make up your own elaborate theory, or even just take pieces here and there, but I think the intention always was that Kal and Nasedo were the original protectors. If they turned, didn't care, had their own agendas, lost interest, yadda, yadda, yadda in the next 50 years, that's open to write some darn good fanfiction. But that is what we got ;) So, yep, I'm sticking to that fact, and that priorities change in 50 years, because circumstances change and life is one weird ride :D Misha

miss3cris 0 5-17-2006 10:28 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by * Misha*
So, yeeeeeeaahhhhh... you could dismiss this whole thing and make up your own elaborate theory, or even just take pieces here and there, but I think the intention always was that Kal and Nasedo were the original protectors. If they turned, didn't care, had their own agendas, lost interest, yadda, yadda, yadda in the next 50 years, that's open to write some darn good fanfiction. But that is what we got So, yep, I'm sticking to that fact, and that priorities change in 50 years, because circumstances change and life is one weird ride

:clap: ITA. Knowing the exact reason, Kal (b/c Nasedo didn't lose interest since he returned and ended up dying in the line of duty) lost his belief in the R4 would be fascinating. It's too bad we'll never know more about him. *Roswelldesertsky* there was a site that discussed the symbols on Ros and their possible significance, but i don't have the link to the site (my old laptop crashed and I lost it) but I think if you try googling it you might get lucky.

Citrus and Vine 0 5-18-2006 03:25 AM
Hi, everyone! :wave: Naturally, each person can decide the theory they prefer. :) *Misha*, you say, /'Nasedo told Michael, Tess and Isabel that he knew Eagle Rock Military Base intimately because he had escaped once, and that Pierce told Max that -he believed- the one named Nasedo was the one who escape from the White Room in 1950.'/ Pierce didn't say that Nasedo escaped in 1950. Here is the scene between Max and Pierce: * PIERCE: All right. How about this: May second, 1999, Agent Daniel Summers, the man who brought me into this unit, the man whose job I now have, did you kill him, too? Or was it one of the others? MAX: What others? PIERCE: You know, I might not have been around in 1947, but I know all about the crash. About the four aliens they captured: two dead, two alive. I've spent my entire career studying the documentation. Especially the three years of observation they made on the one held in captivity, right here in this room. MAX: I thought you said there were four. PIERCE: One of them escaped. Nasedo. Isn't that what you call him?* Notice that Pierce doesn't say what year the alien from the 1947 crash escaped. He says that one alien, the one who didn't escape, was held for three years in the white room. The other alien escaped at an unspecified date. Pierce guessed that the alien who had escaped was named “Nasedo', because he watched a taped conversation between Michael and Isabel, about Liz's vision. (Scene: At an undisclosed location, someone is watching a video of Isabel and Michael in Michael's apartment, taken with the hidden surveillance camera.) ISABEL: That would mean that each of us has this information in some part of us we're just not conscious of. MICHAEL: Or Liz is getting the messages from somewhere or someone else. ISABEL: *Nasedo?* (Tape rewinds.) Again, Pierce knew the name Nasedo, because Isabel mentioned the name Nasedo in the video Pierce watched of Michael and Isabel's conversation in Michael's apartment. [Pierce repeatedly watches the tape, in the episode /Max to the Max/. The taped scene in Michael's apartment occurred in the episode /Sexual Healing/.] Pierce lacked any personal knowledge of the name of the alien who had escaped. Pierce didn't know that Ed Harding, who came into the Sheriff's office, was Nasedo. Michael and Isabel didn't know who Nasedo was, when they were discussing him, in the taped scene. Nasedo knew the Special Unit and the base intimately. Nasedo told Isabel and Michael that he knew it intimately, because he had escaped it once. Nasedo knew that Isabel had doubts about belonging with him. *ISABEL: I don't think we belong with him. MICHAEL: He's Nasedo, what choice do we have? ISABEL: We could go back up there ourselves. MICHAEL: Four is stronger than two. We need them. ISABEL: He could be working for Pierce. You know, we don't know anything for sure.* By telling Isabel and Michael that he had once escaped the place, Nasedo was justifying how he knew so much about the place. Nasedo knew exactly where Max was, even though Nasedo claimed that he couldn't get past the security door. And, even though Nasedo claimed that he couldn't get past the security door, without Michael's help, Nasedo refused to leave with Michael and Max. Nasedo didn't kill Pierce in the white room, even though he stood right next to him. Because Nasedo didn't kill Pierce, Pierce ordered a lock-down. If Michael hadn't authortatively told the agent to go help Pierce or if the Sheriff hadn't arrived at the right moment and shot Pierce, then Michael and Max would have been captured and held. Nasedo knew the base intimately, because he planned for Max and Michael to be captured and held on the base. Once they were both captured, then Nasedo could shape-shift to look like Michael or Max and then get Isabel and Tess captured, too. *Misha*, you quote a portion from this scene, in the episode /Control/, between Kal and Max, as explaining why you think that Kal was a protector. * KAL: Why do you think I know where this ship is? MAX: You knew it was in Utah. KAL: Who else knows? [Max, coughing] MAX: Please, the... KAL: Answer me! [Max, breathing hard, then coughing] KAL: So, this is the mighty King of Antar. A low-rent Tom Cruise with a $10 haircut? Buddy boy, you have no idea what you're gettin' yourself into. MAX: I came all this way to find you. I need your help. You're our protector. KAL: Don't call me that. Yeah... I was put on that ship to protect you. But that was 50 years ago.* In the scene, it is Max, who first believes that Kal is their protector, because Kal knew about the spaceship in Utah. But Max doesn't know all the bad things that Kal and Nasedo each did against him and the others. Notice that Kal told Max not to call him protector. Kal knew that if Max had instructed Kal to protect, then Kal would have had to protect Max. But in the scene, Kal didn't protect Max. In the scene, Kal has his foot on Max's face and chest. Before that, Kal had blasted Max into the wall, causing Max to go unconscious. Kal set fires in the small room. Kal wanted Max dead. Kal wasn't a protector. He hadn't been programmed to protect Max. His genes weren't encoded to protect. Kal abused and harmed Max. Kal wasn't the kind of person that would be selected to protect people. He lacked the personality and the loyalty to protect anyone, except himself. Kal was a selfish, abusive person. He harmed Max, without provocation. He got Max arrested in Utah, to keep Max from the spaceship. Kal knew that Max could fly the ship away, by himself. Kal interfered in Max's life, to keep Max from the spaceship. Kal wanted the spaceship for himself, in case he needed or wanted to leave Earth. I think that Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth around 1958-1959. I think they arrived on the beautiful, fully functional ship they hid under the convenience store in Utah. Neither Kal nor Nasedo behaved as protectors. Nasedo began his silver handprint murders in 1959, with Atherton's murder, in order to locate Max/King Zan, who healed people, leaving a silver handprint. Nasedo left his victims in plain view for humans to discover, so that humans would report silver handprint incidents. Nasedo didn't know in 1959 that the Royal Four were in hibernation pods, hidden in the rock formation. Nasedo couldn't find Max, Michael or Isabel, until after Max healed Liz. So, I don't think that Nasedo had ever been part of the 1947 mission. Otherwise, Nasedo should have been able to find Max, Michael, and Isabel sooner. :ufo: ____________________ Roswelldesertsky 05-18-2006 05:38 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by * miss3cris*
:clap: ITA. *Roswelldesertsky* there was a site that discussed the symbols on Ros and their possible significance, but i don't have the link to the site (my old laptop crashed and I lost it) but I think if you try googling it you might get lucky.

I think I found the http://thesmudge.com/shapeshifter/Ro...ex.html#symbol you have reffered to. But as far as I have been searching, unfortunatley there is nothing that would help me out. But anyway,the more I think about it, it seems clear that the antarian letters cannot be compared to our letters.Because otherwise the podsters would not have had so many problems to find out the meanings of them.;) Oh well,that kinda su*ks, because I don't want to get tattoos which do not make any sense in the end...:goof: Roswelldesertsky 05-18-2006 05:48 AM
All right,here's a site which summarizes the symbols and meanings of them little better: http://redhawksroswell.tripod.com/symbols/index.html and to make the links complete:http://www.fortunecity.com/lavender/poitier/92/id3.htm by the way: Of course,I know some sites where to find screencaptures, but mostly the quality only reaches VCD- Niveau.In addition, I haven't been able to buy the Roswell DvDs myself yet(german version was only released like a few weeks ago and I'm wondering if a box set will be released,too)..so I cannot do it on my own. -->would someone of you(who's in possesion of the dvds) please capture the cave painting after Michael has placed the healing stones properly?("The Balance")? Thanks in advance!:wave:

Citrus and Vine 0 5-18-2006 02:30 PM
:wave: Hi *Roswelldesertsky*! Sorry, I don't have any screen captures of the cave paintings. You might try asking someone on the Roswell Fanart thread here . There are also two captures of the scene at http://episodes.bittersweetblue.net/...e-PDVD_150.jpg and at http://episodes.bittersweetblue.net/...e-PDVD_152.jpg . More screencaps of the episode are at http://episodes.bittersweetblue.net/...hebalance.html (you can click each picture to enlarge it) The symbol on the orbs matches the symbol on the necklace Isabel found at Atherton's. It is also the symbol on the ship that had been hidden in the basement under the convenience store. So, it may be a royal symbol. Max and Isabel drew the symbol in the sand, when they were children. Michael recognized the symbol on the necklace, too. Nasedo left that symbol in the woods, to test whether or not Max, Michael, and Isabel would respond to the symbol. When they illuminated the symbol, and then erased the symbol, Nasedo then knew that he had finally found the other three of the Royal Four. Until then, Nasedo didn't know whether or not the reported silver handprint incident in Roswell had been real or a hoax. Nasedo left the symbol as a test. After Max, Michael, and Isabel showed who they were, then Nasedo began photographing them and watching them. He wanted to get them captured. That's why he didn't identify himself to them. That's why he burned the photograph of them on the library lawn, signifying that he was their enemy. Later Nasedo generated the symbol in the night sky at the carnival to draw Max, Michael, and Isabel to the carnival. He knew that the symbol had special significance to them. :ufo: _______________

xmag 0 5-20-2006 09:44 AM

Quote:
Not every person could be a protector. Neither Nasedo nor Kal had the personalities to protect other people. Both Nasedo and Kal were greedy, selfish people, abusive people, unsuitable to be protect anyone.

If they were left alive and meant to serve people, no way in hell would they have been given the protection of the precious saviors of a whole planet. Sorry, I can't believe that.

Citrus and Vine 0 5-20-2006 12:08 PM
*xmag*, try considering the idea that Kal and Nasedo were never protectors and were never meant to serve and were never on the 1947 spaceship. Try considering the idea that Kal and Nasedo arrived on Earth, after 1947. Try considering the idea that Kal and Nasedo had each done something wrong on Antar. Then, I think that things may make sense to you. Imagine if Princess Diana had been able to program obnoxious paparazzi to obey her direct orders, if they ever again personally and directly interfered in her life. Imagine if paparazzi who demonstrated bad behavior towards her got programmed not to be able to personally kill the Princess. In such a world, Princess Diana could still be alive today, and she wouldn't be harassed by paparazzi. :) Try considering the idea that Kal and Nasedo each committed an offense against King Zan, like being obnoxious paparazzi, while they lived on Antar. Because of their offenses, they were programmed to have to obey King Zan (Max), if they ever directly and personally interfered in his life. They also couldn't personally kill King Zan (Max). Kal and Nasedo weren't protectors. Kal and Nasedo were bad people who hurt and harmed and killed people, unnecessarily. Again, try considering the idea that Kal and Nasedo weren't put on the 1947 ship. Try considering the idea that Kal and Nasedo weren't ever meant to serve Max, but were each programmed in an attempt to convince them to avoid Max/King Zan. Nasedo worked to get the Royal Four captured by humans. He killed innocent people and left silver handprints on the bodies over many years, so that humans would help him find Max (King Zan), who healed people leaving a silver handprint. If Nasedo had been part of the 1947 mission, then he should have known what Max, Michael, and Isabel looked like and when they would be getting out of their hibernation pods. But Nasedo didn't know what Max, Michael, or Isabel looked like in their new bodies. He didn't know that they left their pods shortly before he found Tess. He couldn't find them, even though they looked like specific humans. ____________:ufo:____________________________________________

miss3cris 0 5-20-2006 11:20 PM
Alright *Citrus and Vine*, I think it's time to give it a rest of the shapeshifter/protector theory. Obviously, you don't believe that Kal and Nasedo were the protectors while *xmag*, *Misha* and I do. Fine. We don't have to agree. We'll just have to agree to disagree on that point because the going back and forth and the constant restatement of the same "facts" by you to "prove" your theory is getting tiresome for me. Let's change the subject. Poster's choice: 1.) This was briefly mentioned by me earlier, but I was wondering what anyone's thoughts were on Antarian culture. Do you think they were militaristic like the ancient Spartans or the Kligons of Star Trek? Were they powerful and decadent like the Roman Empire? Did they respect women like the ancient Celtics or keep their women on pedastals like the ancient Athenians? Were the R4 regarded as semi-religious figures like the pharoah of ancient Eygpt or merely chosen by God like the medival Kings of Europe or chosen by the people like the American president (supposedly is)? 2.) Why do you think that Max/Tess seemed to be more affected by their "destiny" programming while Michael/Isabel were not as affected by it? Was it because Michael/Isabel were raised to believe that they were siblings? Was it because Vilandra/Rath didn't love each other while Zan/Ava did? Other reasons? 3.) What do you imagine was the nature of the "Golden Age" that Courtney claimed Antar was a the brink of before everything fell apart for the R4 and their planet?

Misha 0 5-21-2006 06:59 PM
I'll go with the second one ;) Max and Tess. Just for the record, though I am a dreamer and I can't stand Tess, when it comes to discussing her, I like to do so logically and try to remain objective :D Well, on one hand, I don't think Michael and Isabel ever had a chance. I bet Michael might have thought in the beginning they had because of his comment to Isabel in /Max to the Max/:

Quote:
ISABEL: Michael, this can't be. MICHAEL: I know. But why not?

But we know that Michael really wanted to believe and thought he had to follow everything that was on that book, whereas Max didn't. But Max had more pressure to deal with from Tess than Michael from Isabel. Whether Tess was evil, misguided, in love, following the NasedoPact, whatever, the fact was that Tess did want to be with Max, or at least thought it was the ultimate goal, or her right as his previous wife. She did want that life back -for whatever reason, good or not- so Max had to be constantly walking in circles around her. Opposite to Michael, who wanted to embrace his alien heritage, Max was too scared of it, and Tess was just about the best representation out there of that alien side. So I think that Max was afraid of her in the beginning, and afraid of what Tess made him feel, and had made him seen. Max had more pressure from Nasedo as well -at least for a little while- while both Michael and Isabel seemed to have let it go, and no one had argued the point. Tess never said anything to them, and they just dropped it. It seems that after /The End of The World/ Max had finally seen in Tess something more than the girl that was out to get him. He might have started to see her as a possible friend. And he must have felt guilty of rejecting her -however reasonable his reasons were ;)- beause it's not nice to do that. And Tess was there, supporting him. The Summit must have drove the point home to Max that there really was another world out there, and other four planets that did recognize him as Zan. Now, I don't believe for one second that Max and Tess are Zan and Ava. Zan and Ava could have been soulmates, as well as have hated each other, but I don't think that played any role on Max and Tess now. They were told they were these people, but in reality, without those memories, they are just Max and Tess, their own persona. But, beside that, it gotta be hard to be next to this person you were married to, and not recognize her or him :( I do believe that Tess was in love of an idea of Max but not of Max, because she didn't really know him. And I don't think she ever really let go of that notion, that Max was hers, or that they belonged to each other. Or, if she was following the plan, then she was just waiting for the right opportunity, but she knew that Max would have to come to terms with it first, which Max did by the end of season 2: He came to terms that, because everything was falling apart on his world -his very human life- all was left clear was his alien destiny. At least, that's how I see it :spineyes: Max and Tess did not just happen. There were a lot of circumstances around them both -most of them unknown, especially from Tess' past- but if Tess had never believed in her destiny, I bet Max and her could have been good friends, without the pressure of being a couple regardless of their own feelings and wants. So, in conclusion, Max and Tess had more pressure because Tess wanted it, when Michael and Isabel never did so. Besides, Max and Tess were married, and the leaders, so I guess that sort of sucked too :pout: Now I think I'm ranting... :look: Misha

miss3cris 0 5-23-2006 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by * Misha*
Well, on one hand, I don't think Michael and Isabel ever had a chance. I bet Michael might have thought in the beginning they had because of his comment to Isabel in Max to the Max: Quote: ISABEL: Michael, this can't be. MICHAEL: I know. But why not? But we know that Michael really wanted to believe and thought he had to follow everything that was on that book, whereas Max didn't.

Personally, I don't think Michael ever wanted to be with Isabel. I think he wanted stability, something he very much lacked in his childhood, and believed at the time that following his "destiny" would provide him with that stability. If he had a mission then all the confusing questions (Why am I here? Why did I end up with Hank while Max/Isabel ended up with the Evans?) that plagued him as a child would cease to be an issue. He would have the answers. It was all for an ultimate goal. Plus, I think another part of the stability that Michael craved was having a real family. If he had his own family, he wouldn't be an outsider anymore like he was with Hank or the evans. So, he didn't want to be with Isabel but he did like the idea of the family she represented at that point in the story. The minute this possibility ended, he stopped entertaining the idea. It was dropped in favor of Maria who did understand his issues with stability because of her similar background. Isabel, who didn't have any of these issues, never wanted to be with Michael. Having a child didn't represent stability to her but loss of control and solid proof of her alieness. This is the last thing that she wanted. Therefore, I think she was repulsed by the idea of being with Michael. As you pointed out, much of this situation was reproduced in Max/Tess' relationship. However, I do think there was more to Max/Tess coming together than just Tess' pursuit of Max because by the time the first true spark of Max/Tess actually happening began to become a real possibility, Tess had largely given up on Max (she was ready to jump Kyle) and, if Liz hadn't changed the timeline, would've soon totally given up on Max. So, Max had to want it too. The question then is: What changed in Max? From the moment he saw her, Max was intensely attracted to Tess. (Conversely, Isabel/Michael never felt that attraction. They recognized each other as fellow podsters as children, but there was never anything romantic about that recognition. I would liken it to the instant affinity Isabel felt for Tess in the lunchroom scene.) There has been speculation that Tess mindwarped him into this attraction, but there was never any textual proof of that and in fact proof from FMax that the physical attraction he felt towards her was genuine. So, Max thinks she's hot, but he has a GF and, as you said, he, just like Isabel, is afraid to explore the alieness that Tess symbolizes to him. He rejects her. I don't think he felt too badly about doing this either. FMax expressed remorse for his treatment of Tess, but I think that was more about his regretting that his actions led to the destruction of Earth than regretting the actions by themselves. So, what changed? Three things: As you said, his view of his alien side changed by becoming more real to him, but also his view of both his human life, as represented by Liz, and his view of Tess herself. As of EOTW, the human life that Max had been pursuing with Liz came crashing down on him. She was supposed to support him, understand him. Rather, she walked away from him then betrayed him. (She had her reasons, but I'm just talking from Max's perspective right now.) Enter Tess. He's been fighting his attraction to her and rejecting her support up until now but the Liz situation makes him reconsider his former position. Maybe there's something to his alien life? Then, he meets the Skins, the Dupes, the delegates from the summit, and starts his memory retrieval techniques. He remembers Ava. He remembers something of their life together. Not only is his alien side/life becoming realer than ever to him, but Tess is becoming more human to him too. She has relationships with humans in Kyle and Jim. She starts wanting, or finally feels comfortable enough to express her desire for, "human" things like Christmas and the Prom. Plus, and this is to me the most important aspect of their relationship, he starts going to her to confide in like in CYN and she understand and supports him while his traditional support group (esp Liz and Isabel but Michael too) don't. As for Tess, I don't believe in the NasedoPact (it was a shoddy piece of writing that contradicted everything that had taken place before it was inserted into the storyline- Nasedo died at the hands of the Skins, Tess was taken and tortured twice by the Skins, she worked to destroy the Skins in Harvest and WO, and the angst she felt over Max (the scene with Kyle) when he would never see it and the joy she felt over being with Max expressed in those doodles on the prom invite and the newpaper was just a little too throrough for me to believe that it was all her plan to get preggers then kill him. ) so I do think she sincerely was in love with Max. You do bring up a good point about whether or not she really knew him though, but it's almost lunch here and I'm starving so I'll have to tackle it and the Zan/Ava element in my next post.

Citrus and Vine 0 5-23-2006 02:58 PM
I have enjoyed reading the comments about the podsters interpersonal relationships with each other! :) Thank you! *miss3cris*, you say that the idea of a Nasedo pact is bad writing. I disagree. I think Nasedo's claim of a pact with Kivar explains important things in the story. For me, the fact that Nasedo told Tess that he had made a deal with Kivar 40 years ago explains Nasedo's plans and behavior towards the Royal Four. It explains to me why Tess led the others to the podchamber, without telling Nasedo. It explains to me why Tess wanted them to remember that she was one of them. It explains to me why Tess told Nasedo in the podchamber that Max, Michael, and Isabel were her family, and not Nasedo. It explains to me why Nasedo hadn't told Tess that he had killed people. For me, Nasedo's actions, beginning with leaving Atherton's body in plain view for humans to find, was explained with Tess'revelation at the end of Season Two, in /The Departure/ that Nasedo told Tess he made a deal with Kivar, 40 years ago. I agree with miss3cris and Misha that Tess fell in love with Max. Even people, who are in love with each other for many years, may one day learn things about the other person that turns them against the person they once loved. Max fell out of love with Tess, when he learned that she had killed Alex. Tess fell out of love with Max, when Max defended Liz and didn't stand up for Tess in the Granilith chamber. Then Tess believed Nasedo's lie that Kivar was her ally. She didn't remember that Kivar had murdered her. Tess had no way of knowing whether or not Nasedo had been lying to her about Kivar. She had only her heart to follow. Max's betrayal of her love, by kissing Liz and not apologizing to Tess for hurting her, and his betrayal of Tess'love, by defending Liz, instead of standing up for Tess in the Granlith chamber, convinced Tess that Kivar was her ally. 40 years earlier, Nasedo began his silver handprint murders, in order to locate Max (King Zan), who healed people, leaving a silver handprint. If Nasedo had known where the podsters were 40 years earlier, then he could have handed the Royal Four over to Kivar in 1959. Nasedo eventually found Tess 30 years later. But Nasedo couldn't find the other three Royals, until an additional 10 years later, after Max healed Liz, leaving a silver handprint. The Skins and Nasedo weren't allies. They didn't work together. They had different objectives. The Skins wanted the Granilith. Nasedo wanted the Royal Four captured by humans. Although Nasedo told Tess things about Kivar, and the Skins told the Royal Four things about Kivar, the Skins and Nasedo weren't allies. The Skins and Nasedo had their own agendas. They both knew about Kivar, but they didn't work with each other. I think an essential part of Roswell is the importance of recognizing and dealing with abuse. Your life may depend on recognizing abuse. In the series Roswell, the main characters tolerated abuse against themselves, which is dangerous and wrong. Michael had been abused in childhood by Hank, his foster parent. For Michael, and for many other kids, abuse is sometimes tolerated, because kids have no place else to go. Michael didn't want anyone to know that he had been abused by Hank. When Nasedo blasted Michael and treated Michael poorly, Michael recognized that Nasedo wasn't who he thought he would be. Despite reports that Nasedo had murdered people over many years, Michael had held out the hope that Nasedo would care about him. People want and need love. The Antarians also had the concept of love. The Antarians cared about love and relationships and freedom, which are important values for humans, too. Kal's behavior towards Max, and Nasedo's behavior towards Michael and Max were wrong and unacceptable behaviors for subordinates or for superiors, whether in the military or not. Abuse is wrong. It's been suggested that the Royal Four had been spoiled brats on Antar. Abusing spoiled brats is also wrong. Abusing anyone is wrong. It's been suggested that Kal and Nasedo were slaves. But Kal and Nasedo weren't slaves. Kal and Nasedo could do anything they wanted, as long as they avoided Max (King Zan). Only if Kal or Nasedo directly and personally interfered in Max (King Zan)'s life, did they have to obey Max. As long as they didn't interfere directly and personally in the life of King Zan (Max), they could do anything they wanted. Nasedo didn't tell the Royal Four about the Granilith or how to operate it. Nasedo didn't teach them their language or how to decode the book. Those things show that Nasedo had a different plan from what Tess did. Tess wanted to be with her group. Tess thought that the group needed Nasedo to protect them from humans. She didn't know that Nasedo wanted her and the others to be captured by humans. Tess thought that Nasedo was her own personal protector. MAX (explaining to Liz about a sheet of paper): *It was buried among Tess' things. It's a letter Nasedo wrote to her before he died. It says, "I am your one and only protector on this planet. "I'll protect you until the end. "If I ever die, this is our only way to communicate with our home."* Nasedo didn't tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the ship or the diamond key needed to operate it. Nasedo didn't write down for Tess the exact location of the ship or the location of the diamond key. Nasedo wasn't Tess protector. He wasn't Max, Michael, or Isabel's protector, either. Nasedo was the podsters'enemy. Fortunately, after Nasedo returned to Roswell, Max ordered him not to kill anyone. As a result, Whitaker was able to fatally wound Nasedo, before he could carry out his plan to capture the Royal Four again. ______________________________________ :ufo: ___________________________

Citrus and Vine 0 5-23-2006 03:00 PM
sorry, double post :healing_hand:

Misha 0 5-23-2006 09:42 PM
Well, I'm having a slight headache, and it's cold here... so I'll try to not rant too much :D Good points, *miss3criss*. I don't believe the NasedoPact was real either, but when I'm discussing other things aside of it, I like to see how it could have been if it had been real or not ;) Anyway, I do think Tess cared about Max, if only for the slight doubt she had in /Departure/, when she was double thinking her plan, and asked Max if he was sure to do this. And gosh, is that girl jealous or what? Okay, that was a rant... :look: I do think that Tess was letting go of the idea of ever winning Max's grace (and if FMax hand't come, then.... yeah...) but when Max lost all that stability, as you pointed out, she was pretty much all he had left. I do believe Max cared about Tess. That he did start to see her as a friend. But had Alex not died and all the mess that brought to everyone's lives he wouldn't have slept with her. I'll give you that Max was attracted to her (that's a stretch to me, but I can see it... barely... there.... sure... :goof: ) but from that point -caring- to the other -loving-, nope. Too many circumstances play in that, which has always led me to believe that Tess didn't plan it all. Sure, she could have had her plan on her mind but, for me, if Tess was after the NasedoPact or whatever pact and had her own agenda, then she did set some things in motion, but she majorly -and skillfully- played with the circumstances that were unfolding. But that's another rant, I guess... Why was Max so attracted to her? We know in the beginning Tess did mindwarp him, and that Max had been having the "dreams" with her too. But that doesn't prove anything, except that it had upseted Max. Was there more to it? I vaguely remember someone pointing out that, physical differences aside, Tess and Liz were alike. They both had strong characters, were smart, stuff like that. So I can see Max being friends with Tess. Who knows, maybe if Liz had never been in the picture... The other thing that I think jeopardized Max and Tess was the fact that Max didn't want to follow the book. Tess was suddenly imposed on him. Add to that those dreams, "day-dreams", the constant "we are meant to be" and well... I would have run for the hills as well ;) I completely agree with your description of Michael and Isabel's reactions. Now, if Max and Tess had grown up as siblings, or as close as Michael and Isabel did, would that kind of attraction sill be there? Maybe this is a nature vrs. nurture debate thing :look: Now I'm falling asleep... and I know I ranted somewhere and that I wanted to say more... but that'll wait... 'night! Misha

xmag 0 5-25-2006 06:46 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by * miss3cris*
1.) This was briefly mentioned by me earlier, but I was wondering what anyone's thoughts were on Antarian culture. Do you think they were militaristic like the ancient Spartans or the Kligons of Star Trek? Were they powerful and decadent like the Roman Empire? Did they respect women like the ancient Celtics or keep their women on pedastals like the ancient Athenians? Were the R4 regarded as semi-religious figures like the pharoah of ancient Eygpt or merely chosen by God like the medival Kings of Europe or chosen by the people like the American president (supposedly is)?

Good question. I truly believe, where women were concerned on Antar, that they had no roles in the leading hierarchy. I mean, when Max died, who got the seal ? Isabel ? Tess ? no, Michael. Tess was still the queen, and Isabel was Max's sister but none of them got the royal seal. When Max was behaving like a king, in the second season, went on a power trip and his sister HAD TO obey to him. That was how it was meant to be, for him. When Michael got the seal, he was all power hungry. Did he talk about Isabel/Vilandra being his beloved, his wife, his fiancee ? No, he said "she was mine". Like his possession. Tess thought she could come back and be the queen but obviously, she had been used as a mother for the heir but had no political role, or power. That doesn't mean that the women didn't want that power, just that it didn't look like they were allowed to rule. 2.) Why do you think that Max/Tess seemed to be more affected by their "destiny" programming while Michael/Isabel were not as affected by it? Was it because Michael/Isabel were raised to believe that they were siblings? Was it because Vilandra/Rath didn't love each other while Zan/Ava did? Other reasons?[/quote] The fact that Michael and Isabel were raised almost together certainly played a huge part. In Crazy, I believe, Isabel is talking to Alex and mentioned Michael as her brother. In MTTM, Maria learns about the pregnancy and questioned Michael "you always said Isabel was your sister". So I think it explained why they never went for their destiny. Of course, we learned later on that Isabel, as Vilandra, was in love with Khivar and might have had an affair with Nicolas. And that king Michael considered her as his possession. So the Rath/Vilandra relationship could have been sexual, or based on politic, who knows. Tess and Max, hmm, if we believe the episode "off the menu", it's possible that Zan was attracted to Ava, but I don't remember anything about love. But I remember thinking that HOW Zan met Ava for the first time looked like a set up for the young king. How many couples meet while the woman is bathing, almost naked, in a beautiful sea, in a romantic place ?

Quote:
Plus, I think another part of the stability that Michael craved was having a real family. If he had his own family, he wouldn't be an outsider anymore like he was with Hank or the evans. So, he didn't want to be with Isabel but he did like the idea of the family she represented at that point in the story. The minute this possibility ended, he stopped entertaining the idea. It was dropped in favor of Maria who did understand his issues with stability because of her similar background.

As soon as Michael got his answers about Antar, who he was, he never paid attention to the private part of Destiny (Rath and Vilandra being betrothed). I mean, he was willing to accept being a soldier and training to fight Khivar, but not to be with Isabel. He never bought it, as he said. So what he really wanted was answers. Once he got that, he was free, in a way, to do what he wanted with his private life. And at that time, being in a relationship wasn't what mattered, his duty as a soldier mattered, nothing else.

Quote:
3.) What do you imagine was the nature of the "Golden Age" that Courtney claimed Antar was a the brink of before everything fell apart for the R4 and their planet?

Maybe she meant forming an association with the other planets, economically, culturally, politically ?

shapeshifter 0 5-27-2006 04:20 AM
Just a quick post. I think the reason Max was more affected by his "Destiny" than was Michael is because Max had King-sized hormones. LOL If you still want more symbol stuff, try here .

Reggie 0 5-29-2006 02:32 PM
*C&V: If Kivar had left the Skins on Earth with a spaceship or with the material and the expertise to build a spaceship, then the Skins wouldn't all have been as good as dead, after their husks were destroyed. If the Skins had been in good standing with Kivar, they could have been rescued by Kivar, after Courtney destroyed their new husks. But the Skins knew that Kivar wouldn't rescue them, and they knew they had no way off Earth, without the Granilith. That's why they needed the Granilith. Thus, we know that the Skins were Kivar's enemies, as well as enemies (with the exception of Courtney to Michael) of the Royal Four. * Horsefeathers! K'var probably sent Nikolas and the Skins here with orders to find the Royals and the Granolyth, /or don't bother coming back/. Leaving them stranded just underlined the not-coming-back part. Cruel? Despotic? Duh! :rolleyes: *miss3cris: First, I don't think that the human raised R4 was more wise or mature. (...) In fact, in the end, he (Max) and the others proved to be very unconcerned with the important roles they had on their home planet preferring their human lives and that was not a mature or leader-like decision, imo.* Fair enough. But then again, Max & his R4 are about 17 years old. Less, if you figure they were hatched at an appearent age of 5; they'd have only a dozen years of experience. The Dupes have that, plus a lifetime of training and experience on Antar; and they are invested in that life in a way that the NM R4 can never be. Would you get involved in some Byzantine alien civil war, just on someone else's sayso? :lol: *Second, I think the fact that Max/Isabel/Michael were raised by humans was a complete accident. Nasedo makes it clear that he lost them. They hatched earlier or Tess hatched late but he had intended to raise all four of them. * I disagree, in part because Max and Tess were intended to resume their lives as husband and wife. Had they been raised together, they would have felt as siblings, and the proposed relationship would have been incestuous. Note how Michael and Isabel felt about their betrothal. I believe that Mr. Harding was intended to raise the mindwarping child at a safe distance fom a susceptible humanity. Tic-tac was intended to play "guardian angel" while Max, Michael, and Isabel were raised by human parents who would teach them to be good people, perhaps better than the Dupes. Mr. H. may have lost track of them, but the R3 were not unguarded. *There was obviously something wrong with the original R4. They weren't the sweet and lightness that commoners (like Courtney and Whitaker) were told they were.* And a rebirth, and re-raising, by non-royal parents, in a less Byzantine environment, might be an improvement. Worth a try, anyway; since that option is availible. And thus, you get the two R4s. *Misha: I don't see a Rebellion forming, maintaining and still fighting 50 years later if their rulers were idiots, or spoiled brats (is it spoilt? sorry, English is my second language... ). This Rebellion is strong enough for Khivar to want to come heremin search of them, play the Summit to make them look bad, try to kill them, etc., etc., etc.. No, this Rebellion wants Khivar out and Zan back.* Your English is just fine, Misha. :) "Spoilt" is rather English, while "spoiled" is rather American, but both are used. (One thing about being a "nation of immigrants" is that we're used to variations in the language. You'd have to mangle it pretty badly for someone not to understand. ;) ) There are two sides to this rebellion, and I believe most rebellions. On the one hand, they don't want K'var; on the other, they want Zan back. It's entirely possible that they are mostly interested in getting rid of K'var, and Zan is only a rallying point for the anti-K'var sentment. K'var does not seem to be a particularly good ruler, from what we've seen of him. There has been some thought about whether Zan was the "good guy" or "bad guy" in the original conflict, though. From the way the Dupes treated each other, and other people, I could believe that Zan was a bad ruler, overthrown by someone who seemed better at the time; and that Zan's partisans were more interested in regaining their power than bettering their people. Note Whittaker's comment about "your kind" not ruling any more. *I do agree with miss3cris that the plan including being raised by Humans is not coherent. First of all, that would imply a very large understanding of Human nature, and that would lead to "what the hell am I thinking"* Well... maybe. But they're playing good odds here. In 1947, the US was the most powerful nation on Earth (we had The Bomb, no one else did). We had no internal restrictions to movement or identity, so new people could appear and move about without problems. If they had turned up in the USSR, Stalin would have had them executed. In China, Mao was a threat. India had Moslem vs. Hindu strife, and Europe was tired and unstable. Dropping the kids off in a small, remote town in the US almost guaranteed that they would be adopted locally, by good and well-off citizens; and would be well protected against revolutions, wars, tyranies, poverty, etc. With Tic-tac monitoring things from a distance, the kids would have been pretty sure of a safe and healthy upbringing. I think the delay in "hatching" was added later, when the Skins arrived. By delaying the R4's appearance, they may have hoped to outwait the Skins. Remember, they had almost expired when the Special Unit turned up the incident with Liz. If Max had stayed invisible until he graduated from high school, the Skins would have probably all been dead. *I do believe, though, that Nasedo was tic-tac. Maybe it's a little thin, but Maxsedo's line to Liz that he had been so many people she had no idea works for me and believing he was Margollis, the guy in SH, and the one to kill Hank.* Then why two completely different sets of behavior, and the need to be in two diferent places at the same time? E.g., babysitting Tess and being Dr. Margolin, or the person who silenced Hank. Mr. H had undoubtedly impersonated many people over his years on the run. He could have been referring to that. *miss3cris: This theory is based on the fact that Kal had to obey Zan, my limited knowledge of the tradition of elite military guard for leaders (i.e. CIA), and Kal's comments about preferring life on Earth to Antar. It says it no where in the show. If you don't want to believe it, fine. But this makes a lot more sense to me than overly complicated theories where we have to disregard almost everything from the show.* I believe you've grasped C&V's argument correctly. I do wonder if Kal's hint that he /had to/ obey Max was truthful, and I definitely doubt that it was some sort of "programming". Just assume that he took an oath of allegence to the Crown when he joined the military (or whatever), and still considers himself bound by it as a matter of honor. BTW, the President of the US is guarded by the Secret Service, part of the Treasury Department. They also deal with counterfiters. The CIA is a post-WW2 organization, civilian, and forbidden to take any action on US soil. I believe that the British Royalty and Parliament have military guards. *C&V: Nasedo left that symbol in the woods, to test whether or not Max, Michael, and Isabel would respond to the symbol. When they illuminated the symbol, and then erased the symbol, Nasedo then knew that he had finally found the other three of the Royal Four. Until then, Nasedo didn't know whether or not the reported silver handprint incident in Roswell had been real or a hoax. Nasedo left the symbol as a test.* It works better if that was a Skin, possibly a member of Pierce's Special Unit, who thought he'd finally found the R4 (given that the SU knew something funny had happened with Liz). After all, the Special Unit had her uniform and the other info from Sherrif Valenti's office that they confiscated. We know that the Skins were aware of the Special Unit, via Congresswoman Whittaker. A Skin in the Unit would have access to surveilence photos of the kids, the ability to make the symbols, and the distaste for them that burning the photo showed. *C&V: If Nasedo had been part of the 1947 mission, then he should have known what Max, Michael, and Isabel looked like and when they would be getting out of their hibernation pods.* Knowing what they looked like, or rather what they would look like when they were teenagers, doesn't tell you /where/ they are now. More to the point, he was there to collect Tess, which he did successfully. *40 years earlier, Nasedo began his silver handprint murders, in order to locate Max (King Zan), who healed people, leaving a silver handprint.* Do we know this? The Skins have some powers at least; couldn't they have killed leaving a silver handprint? An alien force who didn't know Earth would get into trouble, and have to kill to cover their tracks. Might not a Skin have been questioning Atherton too closely, revealed himself, and had to kill him?

Citrus and Vine 0 5-29-2006 08:32 PM
Hi *Reggie*, *shapeshifter*, *xmag*, *Misha*, and everyone! :wave: *Reggie*, the Dupes were decoys. The Dupes weren't the real Royal Four. New-York-Zan lacked Max's force-field shield power. New-York-Zan lacked the desire to help others outside his group. The Dupes weren't given the Granilith. They didn't know what the Granilith was, where it was, or what it looked like. The Dupes didn't know that the Granilith could take people to Antar. The Dupes hadn't been given the book explaining how to activate the Granilith. Lonnie thought that she could only get to Antar, by telling Nicholas where the Granilith was. She didn't know that the Granilith could transport people to Antar. Neither Lonnie nor Nicholas knew that neither of them could use the Granilith to go to Antar. Only the real Royal Four could access the Granilith chamber. Only Max (the real King Zan) could activate the Granilith, using the crystal. Again, the Dupes weren't the real Royal Four. The Dupes lacked the essences and qualities of the real Royal Four. The Dupes hadn't been and weren't the Royal Four. The Dupes were decoys. Max was the real King Zan. Max was proven to be the real King Zan. He had the Seal of Antar in his brain, which was verified by the emissary. The Dupes were marked on their upper right arms with matching symbols, to ensure that their group wasn't placed in front of the Granilith. (For people who may be unfamiliar with fetal surgery, babies, even before they are born, can have surgical procedures performed on them. So, I think that the Dupes were marked, while they were fetuses, with matching symbols, to ensure that their group, which was the decoy group, wouldn't be placed in the rock formation with the Granilith, since they were decoys and not the real Royal Four.) *Reggie*, you say you think /“…Max and Tess were intended to resume their lives as husband and wife. Had they been raised together, they would have felt as siblings, and the proposed relationship would have been incestuous. Note how Michael and Isabel felt about their betrothal. I believe that Mr. Harding was intended to raise the mindwarping child at a safe distance fom a susceptible humanity. Tic-tac was intended to play "guardian angel" while Max, Michael, and Isabel were raised by human parents who would teach them to be good people, perhaps better than the Dupes. Mr. H. may have lost track of them, but the R3 were not unguarded.'/ Nasedo framed Michael for Hank's disappearance. He wasn't guarding Michael. Nasedo could have murdered the drunken Hank quietly, as Hank slept. Nasedo killed people quickly and quietly, even in broad daylight, when people were awake and nearby, as he did, when he murdered the agent in downtown Roswell. Instead, Nasedo arranged to have the neighbors think that Michael was responsible for Hank's disappearance. Nasedo staged the loud, agonized cries that the neighbors reported to the Sheriff. Nasedo wanted Michael captured by humans. Nasedo didn't get Michael out of jail. Nasedo was the Royal Four's enemy. “Tic-Tac'(Nasedo) couldn't guard all the Royals at once, with Tess living in one house, Michael living elsewhere, and Max and Isabel together in a different location. If the Evans parents took Max and Isabel to Florida again or to some other place, without telling Nasedo, he would have lost them again. Nasedo also couldn't guard all four Royals, if Michael had again left Roswell, without telling anyone where he was going. Nasedo wasn't interested in guarding the Royals. Nasedo's plan was to get the Royal Four captured by humans. Nasedo (“Tic-Tac') pretended to be Dr. Margolin, to prevent the Royal Four from getting the second orb from Topolsky. The orbs had been intended for the Royal Four to use. The Dupes had been left as decoys. A signal was activated after the recording was received by the Royal Four The signal triggered alien devices around the world. The triggered signal after the recorded message led enemies and outsiders to the Dupes in the New York sewer, instead of the Royal Four in Roswell. The recorded message warned the Royal Four that their enemies had come to Earth and looked human and would only be known by the evil within. Nasedo was an evil person. He murdered innocent people, like Sheila Hubble. Nasedo began his silver handprint murders in 1959, in order to locate Max (King Zan), whose essential nature was to heal people, leaving a silver handprint. Max's essential nature was to help others. He healed the wounded pigeon, even though his adoptive mother didn't want him to. Healing was part of who Max was. Nasedo wanted humans to know about alien silver handprints. Nasedo left his victims'bodies out in the open, in plain view, with nearby witnesses, because Nasedo wanted humans to help him locate the alien King Zan (Max). Nasedo didn't know in 1959 that the Royal Four were in hibernation pods in the rock formation. Nasedo couldn't find the other three royals, until after Max healed Liz, leaving a silver handprint. Nasedo was an enemy. Nasedo framed Max for all the silver handprint murders. If Max hadn't been captured at the carnival, Max would have been captured later. Nasedo made certain of that, by leaving a silver handprint at the gas station, causing a fire there, and having himself photographed as Max with Liz, and then publicly displaying himself as Max with Liz at the carnival. Nasedo was the Royal Four's enemy. Nasedo never intended for Tess and Max to be a romantic couple. Max and Tess couldn't have lived in anonymity on Earth, after Nasedo kidnapped Liz and committed crimes as Max. If Nasedo had wanted Pierce dead, he could have murdered Pierce in Roswell. Nasedo wanted Max and Michael captured. Once they were captured, Nasedo could pretend to be Max or Michael to Tess and Isabel. Then he could get them captured, too. Nasedo didn't tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the Granilith. Nasedo didn't translate the book or tell the Royal Four about their people or their planet or about the other planets or about Kivar. Nasedo didn't tell the Royal Four the exact location of the spaceship or the diamond key needed to operate it, in case he died. Nasedo was the Royal Four's enemy. Nasedo's schemes failed, because Max, Michael, and Isabel had good human friends, who rescued them. :) _________________________________ :ufo: ________________________

Reggie 0 5-31-2006 02:22 PM
*Citrus and Vine: /Reggie/, the Dupes were decoys. The Dupes weren't the real Royal Four. New-York-Zan lacked Max's force-field shield power. New-York-Zan lacked the desire to help others outside his group. The Dupes weren't given the Granilith. They didn't know what the Granilith was, where it was, or what it looked like. The Dupes didn't know that the Granilith could take people to Antar. The Dupes hadn't been given the book explaining how to activate the Granilith. Lonnie thought that she could only get to Antar, by telling Nicholas where the Granilith was. She didn't know that the Granilith could transport people to Antar. Neither Lonnie nor Nicholas knew that neither of them could use the Granilith to go to Antar. Only the real Royal Four could access the Granilith chamber. Only Max (the real King Zan) could activate the Granilith, using the crystal.* We don't know these. Zan may not have had time to put up his force-field before he was hit; that's why Lonnie surprised him. The original King Zan may not have been very benevolant, either; reports differ. No one was "given" the Granolyth; no one knew where it was. It's easier to park it in the empty desert than downtown New York City. (Have you ever been to NYC? It's a madhouse!) We don't know what the Dupes knew about the Granolyth, we only have Lonnie's offhand comment that it was some sort of religious thing. I believe that she was lying, to convince Max to give the"useless" thing up; knowing how useful it would be. The Dupes would not need a book to tell them what they already remembered. Furthermore, even given that Lonnie had the Granolyth and key, she'd still have to land on Antar safely. Planetary defenses, given the war, should be expected! Getting through would probably require K'var's permission, which means getting a pass code from Nikolas; i.e., he'd have to come along home. And how /do/ you know that only Max (or Max and Zan) could use the Granolyth key? *Again, the Dupes weren't the real Royal Four. The Dupes lacked the essences and qualities of the real Royal Four. The Dupes hadn't been and weren't the Royal Four. The Dupes were decoys. Max was the real King Zan. Max was proven to be the real King Zan. He had the Seal of Antar in his brain, which was verified by the emissary.* Zan wasn't tested; you don't know that he wouldn't have passed. And the Dupes gave every indication of fully remembering their past lives. *Nasedo framed Michael for Hank's disappearance. He wasn't guarding Michael. Nasedo could have murdered the drunken Hank quietly, as Hank slept. Nasedo killed people quickly and quietly, even in broad daylight, when people were awake and nearby, as he did, when he murdered the agent in downtown Roswell. Instead, Nasedo arranged to have the neighbors think that Michael was responsible for Hank's disappearance. Nasedo staged the loud, agonized cries that the neighbors reported to the Sheriff. Nasedo wanted Michael captured by humans. Nasedo didn't get Michael out of jail. Nasedo was the Royal Four's enemy.* You don't read much detective fiction, do you? The noise at Hank's was /intended/ to mark the time of his death, precisely because Michael had an alibi for that time! He stayed with Hank, or was alone, most of the time. This once, he had reliable witnesses for an alibi. And Hank had to die, and soon, because Michael had revealed his powers and Hank wasn't OK with that. IMHO, Tic-tac dropped by in the form of Michael to see how the wind blew, and was confronted by Hank about "his" powers. Otherwise, "Michael" would have gone to bed, and appearently left before Hank got up the next morning. *“Tic-Tac'(Nasedo) couldn't guard all the Royals at once, with Tess living in one house, Michael living elsewhere, and Max and Isabel together in a different location. If the Evans parents took Max and Isabel to Florida again or to some other place, without telling Nasedo, he would have lost them again.* Right; there were TWO shapeshifters. One (Mr. Harding) looked after Tess, who (as a mindwarper) needed special handling. The other (Tic-tac) looked after the three in Roswell. The Evans were professionals,with a law practice, so they were not likely to move anywhere suddenly. We don't know what Hank did before Mrs. G went away. He may have been stable, too. Anyway, he didn't look like he was likely to leave suddenly. *A signal was activated after the recording was received by the Royal Four The signal triggered alien devices around the world. The triggered signal after the recorded message led enemies and outsiders to the Dupes in the New York sewer, instead of the Royal Four in Roswell.* Except that the signal actually pointed to Roswell, as Brody told Maria. :rolleyes: *Nasedo didn't tell Max, Michael, or Isabel about the Granilith. Nasedo didn't translate the book or tell the Royal Four about their people or their planet or about the other planets or about Kivar. Nasedo didn't tell the Royal Four the exact location of the spaceship or the diamond key needed to operate it, in case he died. Nasedo was the Royal Four's enemy. Nasedo's schemes failed, because Max, Michael, and Isabel had good human friends, who rescued them. :)* They were still in high school, children untrained and unequipped to do much of anything, let alone overthrow the ruler of a planet who had access to weapons and powers beyond their knowlage. It wasn't time yet. They were safer in the long run, not having the Granolyth or attempting anything they would be unable to finish. Better to live as humans, than die in a futile attempt against K'var. Naturally, Mr. H didn't tell them what they didn't need to know yet.

Citrus and Vine 0 6-01-2006 02:13 AM
Hi *Reggie*! :wave: One of the intriguing ideas presented in Roswell is that people are more than their bodies. In Roswell, people's essences are essential. In the past, Reggie, you have stated that people can't come back to life. But I think you know that some people are said to be brought back to life, after their hearts stop. We know of people who drown, who are brought back to life. And many people have heard of people who were pronounced dead, but came back to life. We know that parts of people's dead bodies can be used to repair other people. Cadaver bones and blood vessels are sometimes used as replacement parts in others. And we can grow tissues and we can clone cells. So the idea of people getting new body parts or maybe an entirely new body is something people sometimes consider. We know that individual people have individual personalities and preferences. We know that some people are naturally outgoing and gregarious, while others are shy. We know of some families which have multiple generations of physicians or lawyers or military officers or actors or other career preferences. I think we all know some people who seem especially suited to their endeavors. One important thing that we don't know yet is how memories are stored and retrieved. We know that it happens, but we don't know how. Sometimes, people liken the idea of memory storage and retrieval in people to being something like the way computers store and retrieve memories. Imagine now, if you wish, that someday, people whose bodies have been badly damaged, could have their memories and personalities transferred into a fresh, healthy body. The idea is science fiction. We lack the ability to do such things now. But in a story like Roswell, which is science fiction, it is possible for people who once lived, to live again in another body, after their previous body died. In the story of Roswell, Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess had lived before. They were murdered by Kivar. They had a few memories of their past lives. Whether their memories of their former lives had been largely destroyed when they were murdered is unknown. Perhaps the 1947 crash had damaged or affected their memories. Perhaps the damage done to the pods by the medical people in 1947 had delayed their memories. Perhaps their memories of their past lives would continue to emerge. The Dupes in New York were very different people from the real Royal Four of Roswell. The Roswell group helped each other and other people outside their group. The Dupes stole from others and didn't help people outside their group. New-York-Zan lacked Max's force-field shield power. Max reacted immediately, with his force-field shield power, when he entered the room with the welder, who surprised him. If New-York-Zan had had a force-field shield power, then he would have been able to save his life from the speeding truck. But New-York-Zan didn't use a force-field shield power. He just lay there, as Ava said. We (the audience) see New-York-Zan facing the light of the headlights, doing nothing, before he was killed by the truck. In contrast, Max was able to stop bullets in mid-air and create a net to catch Liz in mid-air. Max used his power immediately to save lives. Max was the real King Zan. He had the Seal of Antar in his brain. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were given the Granilith. Their pods were placed directly in front of the Granilith chamber, which housed the Granilith. The book translation says that they were given the Granilith. The Royal Four's pods were placed with beautiful decoration around the pods. The Dupes'pods had no decoration around them. Their pods were placed on a plain wall, in a horizontal arrangement, without the beautiful decorations used in the rock formation. The Dupes'pods were placed in the New York City sewers, where anyone might easily find them. The Dupes'pods were placed 1,921 miles (3091.5 kilometers) away from the Granilith. The Dupes had matching identifying marks on their upper right arms. The Dupes were decoys. Lonnie didn't know what the Granilith was. She was under the impression that the Granilith was a religious object, like the Holy Grail. The Holy Grail would be a cup, which is a small object, not a large object, like the Granilith. Isabel, in contrast, found the Granilith, and she immediately knew that it was the Granilith. Isabel, not Lonnie, was the real Vilandra. The Dupes were decoys. Enemies and outsiders located the Dupes, after the Royal Four used the orbs, triggering a signal that left Earth. People on Earth and people beyond Earth were led by the signal to find the Dupes in the New York City sewers. The Summit members asked the Dupes to meet with them. The Summit members knew that the Royal Four no longer looked as they had on Antar. They didn't rely on external appearance to decide who the real King Zan was. The Royal Four were now in different bodies. Max was tested by the emissary and was proven to have the Seal of Antar. Max was the real King Zan. The Dupes weren't the real Royal Four. The Dupes had been duped into thinking they were the Royal Four. But they weren't. They were only decoys. Nicholas knew that they weren't the real Royal Four, because they didn't have the Granilith. Nicholas knew from accessing Courtney's mind that the Roswell group had the Granilith, not the Dupes. Reggie, you say that the noise at Hank's was intended to mark the time of his death, precisely because Michael had an alibi for that time. However, the Sheriff didn't believe Maria, even though she vouched for Michael. The Sheriff only released Michael, because he believed Amy, who had finally believed her daughter. At first, though, Amy was unwilling to believe Maria, since Michael had spent the night with Maria, which Amy disapproved of. Only because Maria was able to convince her mother that Michael was a good guy, and only because the Sheriff believed Amy, did Michael get an alibi. A genuine protector would have given Michael a safe home. Michael was in foster care. So any genuine shapeshifter protector could pretend to be any person and order Michael into a new, safe home. If a genuine shapeshifter protector wanted Hank dead, then he should have killed Hank, while Michael was in school, with lots of witnesses around to give Michael an alibi, if needed. An even better strategy for a real protector to use would be to make Hank's death look like an accident or suicide or impersonate Hank without the noises in the trailer, and have “Hank'tell everyone he was leaving town. Then Michael never would have been arrested or given an arrest record, on file, and available for law enforcement. Michael and Max were aliens. It was hazardous to their health and their anonymity to be arrested and given an arrest record. Nasedo (whom you refer to as a separate person, Tic-Tac) was an enemy. The shapeshifter who got Michael arrested for Hank's disappearance was Michael's enemy. Nasedo got Max captured for all the silver handprint murders. Nasedo could have murdered Pierce in Roswell, but he didn't. Nasedo could have killed Pierce in the white room, when he stood right next to him. But he didn't. Nasedo should have left with Max and Michael to protect them. But he didn't. Nasedo was their enemy. He wanted them captured by humans. Reggie, you say that the reason Nasedo didn't tell them about the Granilith or their past lives or translate the book or tell them the exact location of the spaceship and the diamond key needed to activate the ship, is because Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were high school kids. Most high school kids are responsible, intelligent people, like Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess. Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess were all capable of knowing and handling truth. Nasedo wasn't in charge. Max was. Nasedo wasn't a superior. Nasedo was their enemy. Reggie, you say that the Royal Four were safer in the long run, not having the Granilith or attempting anything they would be unable to finish. You say it was better for them to live as humans, than die in a futile attempt against Kivar. However, we know that Kivar and other aliens came to Earth. We know that Earth was destroyed 14 years into the future. Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess needed to know everything about themselves and about Kivar and about the Granilith and about the spaceship, in order to protect themselves from aliens from other planets, who were already on Earth and who could continue to arrive on Earth. Nasedo didn't tell the Royal Four how they had been created. He didn't tell them that Gandarium had been on the spaceship that crashed. Nasedo didn't provide the Royal Four with a way to leave Earth, if they needed to. Nasedo didn't tell them about Larek, who was Max's childhood friend. He didn't tell them that there were other planets, with people besides the people on their alien home planet. Nasedo was their enemy. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess were more than high school kids. Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess were alien hybrids living on a planet with humans hostile to extraterrestrials. They were living on a planet where enemy aliens had arrived. Nasedo knew that he could die. He had been killed in the white room. He turned to dust the second time he died. If Nasedo had been a genuine protector, he would have told them everything he knew about themselves, about their alien parents, about Kivar, about the people on other planets, and about the Granilth. If Nasedo had been a genuine protector, he would have taught them their language, translated the book, told them the exact location of the spaceship and the diamond key. If Nasedo had been a genuine protector, he would have wanted them to be able to escape Earth if necessary. If Nasedo was a genuine protector, he would have encouraged them to learn everything they could about Earth and about their home planet and the other planets. Knowledge is power. Nasedo wasn't a “protector'. Nasedo was Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess'enemy. Fortunately, he was killed by Whitaker, before he could succeed in getting the Royal Four captured by humans. _________________________________ :ufo: __________________________

xmag 0 6-01-2006 06:01 AM
Why do you think Zan didn't want to go to the summit ? The dupes seem to be intend on going back so why was Zan reluctant ?

Citrus and Vine 0 6-01-2006 10:38 AM
:wave: Hi *xmag*! :ufo: Zan refused to go the Summit, because he thought the summit might be a set up, meaning a trap. RATH: They contacted us again last night. Same invite. We gotta tell 'em something. *ZAN: Tell 'em no* LONNIE: Yo, you sayin' we ain't going to the summit? *ZAN: That's what I'm saying.* RATH: Yo, that's messed up, duke. This is the only time we've ever been contacted. *ZAN: Whatever. That's it.* AVA: We tell 'em no, they won't ask again. *ZAN: Tell 'em hell no.* RATH: What is up with you, man? I'm tired of you. I'll go by myself! *ZAN: They don't want the number 2. They want the royal four.* RATH: Why don't we go and see what they gotta say? Why don't we go and get the answers? *ZAN: What if it's a setup?* RATH: No, it's not a setup! They need us! *ZAN: I'm the man. Don't forget.* ____________________________________________ *Shapeshifter “Tic Tac'(Nasedo)* Reggie, your current theory is that the shapeshifter Nasedo was a separate shapeshifter from the shapeshifter “Tic Tac'. Good detectives evaluate modus operandi in judging a suspect's actions and motives. Tic-Tac , Nasedo's motives are suspect, because of the wanton and unnecessary murders committed. There is no justifiable reason for Tic-Tac Nasedo to murder Hank, Atherton, or Sheila Hubble. Hank was very drunk, when Michael used his powers. Hank was a known drunk. Social Services knew that Hank was a known drunk, when Michael was a child. Social Services hadn't believed Hank's story about Michael's powers, when Michael was a child. No one would believe Hank now either. It's unlikely that Hank would even remember what Michael did, because, as Isabel pointed out, Hank was so drunk. People are unlikely to believe stories about strange powers from a drunk. A true protector never would have allowed Michael to be raised by a drunken, neglectful, abusive person like Hank. Hank told Michael to use beer on cereal, for Michael's evening dinner. Alcohol is very bad for kids. Alcohol was especially bad for Michael. A true protector would have gotten Michael to a good, safe home that would have provided Michael with nutritious meals. A true protector never would have taken away Hank and allowed Michael to be arrested for Hank's disappearance. A true shapeshifter protector would have pretended to everyone that Hank was leaving town, before Michael was arrested. A true shapeshifter protector would not have made loud noises in the trailer that convinced neighbors that Michael was involved in the loud tortured screams they heard. Tic-Tac Nasedo easily moved bodies. Hank's body was removed from the trailer, with neighbors in the vicinity. Nasedo-Ed Harding removed the agent's body from downtown Roswell, from the scene, without difficulty, in board daylight, with people in the vicinity. Tic-Tac 'Nasedo used the identical modus operandi. Tic-Tac Nasedo framed Michael for a crime Michael hadn't committed. Tic-Tac Nasedo framed Max for crimes Max hadn't committed. Nasedo murdered people unnecessarily. The agent in downtown Roswell didn't know that Ed Harding was Nasedo, a shapeshifter alien. Nasedo murdered the agent in downtown Roswell to frame Max for all the silver handprint murders. Nasedo assumed Max's form, kidnapped Liz, dumped the agent's body with a silver handprint on it, and let Liz answer her phone, in order that Max would know that a shapeshifter had kidnapped her. Nasedo notified Pierce by phone and told law enforcement where to find the dead agent's body. Nasedo continued with Liz to the gas station, where he left another silver handprint, set fire, and had himself photographed as Max leaving the station with the kidnapped Liz, who was missing her shift at work, and would be missed by her parents and friends. Nasedo went to the carnival with Liz, where many people could witness “Max'with Liz, who was kidnapped. Nasedo sent the alien symbol into the night sky. The symbol was visible for miles. Max, Michael, and Isabel knew the alien symbol. Nasedo knew that Max had saved Liz's life in September, risking his secret. Nasedo knew that Max was in love with Liz. Max (and Isabel, Michael and Tess) went to the carnival, as Nasedo had thought that Max would do, after Max knew that Liz had been kidnapped. Law enforcement went to the carnival, too, as Nasedo had also intended. Max was captured at the carnival, as Nasedo had intended. If Max hadn't been captured at the carnival, Max would have been captured later. Max's picture as a criminal had been faxed to law enforcement. Nasedo and Tic Tac were one and the same shapeshifter, whose motive was to get Michael and Max captured by humans. His motive was to have humans and law enforcement alerted to crimes that Nasedo framed Max and Michael for. Nasedo Tic-Tac didn't want Michael or Max to live safe, anonymous lives on Earth. Nasedo Tic-Tac's modus operandi demonstrates that Nasedo Tic-Tac was Michael and Max's enemy. _____________________________________________________

shapeshifter 0 6-02-2006 09:27 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*
... Zan refused to go the Summit, because he thought the summit might be a set up, meaning a trap. RATH: They contacted us again last night. Same invite. We gotta tell 'em something. *ZAN: Tell 'em no* LONNIE: Yo, you sayin' we ain't going to the summit? *ZAN: That's what I'm saying.* RATH: Yo, that's messed up, duke. This is the only time we've ever been contacted. *ZAN: Whatever. That's it.* AVA: We tell 'em no, they won't ask again. *ZAN: Tell 'em hell no.* RATH: What is up with you, man? I'm tired of you. I'll go by myself! *ZAN: They don't want the number 2. They want the royal four.* RATH: Why don't we go and see what they gotta say? Why don't we go and get the answers? *ZAN: What if it's a setup?* RATH: No, it's not a setup! They need us! *ZAN: I'm the man. Don't forget.* ..._

Zan was cool. :cool: If there's ever a new version of Roswell, I hope they bring back Dupe Zan. :D

miss3cris 0 6-03-2006 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by *Misha*
I do believe Max cared about Tess. That he did start to see her as a friend. But had Alex not died and all the mess that brought to everyone's lives he wouldn't have slept with her. I'll give you that Max was attracted to her (that's a stretch to me, but I can see it... barely... there.... sure... ) but from that point -caring- to the other -loving-, nope. Too many circumstances play in that, which has always led me to believe that Tess didn't plan it all. Sure, she could have had her plan on her mind but, for me, if Tess was after the NasedoPact or whatever pact and had her own agenda, then she did set some things in motion, but she majorly -and skillfully- played with the circumstances that were unfolding.

I'll admit it. I'm a Rebel therefore I'm inclined to believe love growing from caring, but I'm not here to convert anyone and since even I have issues with my OTP I can certainly see why someone might not believe in it. Alright, with the disclaimer out of the way, I will agree with you that their relationship is definitely born out of a bunch of circumstances coming together and that Alex's death sped up the development of M/T's relationship esp the sexual aspect of the relationship. However, the romantic aspect of their relationship (the bedroom scene in OTM, the kiss in HOM) had been set in motion before Alex's death. (I'll discount the S1 kiss because that was much more sexual than romantic and it wasn't exactly the height of Max recognizing Tess as a person not an object of lust and symbol for his alieness.:look:) They had been growing to truly know each other as friends since EOTW then the alien stuff happens and Max, as I stated before, starts doing the memory retrieval techniques and he remembers being Zan and being with Ava. This is the turning point from caring to love, for me. While I do agree with you that M/T are in no way Alien!Z/A, I think the past love of Zan and Ava (again, I'm just going to accept that Alien!Zan and Ava were in love because Larek, who was supposed to be a close friend of Alien!Zan, said they were in love, the Dupe!Zan and Ava, who were supposed to remember Antar, were together, and both Max and Tess' memories of Alien!Zan and Ava support that conclusion) had an effect on Max and Tess' feeling for each other. This is something Mi/I did not have to contend with and, I think, the biggest difference between the two couples beyond growing up together. As *Reggie* and *xmag* said, A!Rath might've considered A!Vilandra to be his possession, but he didn't seem in love with her and A!Vilandra wasn't in love with him at all. So, Mi/I didn't want their "destiny" and neither really did A!R/V. Counter, Max begins drawn to but not wanting his Tess while Tess waits him out not-so-patiently also drawn to Max but disliking the less than ideal circumstances of him rejecting her. This leads me to my point (finally). Max always sort of wanted Tess and vise versa. Yes, if F!max hadn't visited, he would've never gotten to know Tess as a friend leading to considering her as a GF and if Alex hadn't died, they wouldn't have slept together when they did because the extra pressure from others pushing them together wouldn't have happened, but the desire to be together would've still been there. (This is probably the reason F!Max drove Tess away after he'd decided to be committed to F!Liz. He didn't like feeling conflicted.) This desire can only be explained, imo, by A!Z/A's past love. I think the creators of the pods left them mental prompters, but the decision of who they were going to get down with and whether or not they were going to return to Antar was obviously left up to them in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *xmag*
I truly believe, *where women were concerned on Antar, that they had no roles in the leading hierarchy.* I mean, when Max died, who got the seal ? Isabel ? Tess ? no, Michael. Tess was still the queen, and Isabel was Max's sister but none of them got the royal seal. When Max was behaving like a king, in the second season, went on a power trip and his sister HAD TO obey to him. That was how it was meant to be, for him. When Michael got the seal, he was all power hungry. Did he talk about Isabel/Vilandra being his beloved, his wife, his fiancee ? No, he said "she was mine". Like his possession. Tess thought she could come back and be the queen but obviously, she had been used as a mother for the heir but had no political role, or power. That doesn't mean that the women didn't want that power, just that it didn't look like they were allowed to rule.

I agree. The Princess and the Queen were rallying figures. They were ideas up on a pedastal for the commoners to love, but that they had no real power to command on their own. It's obvious from Lonnie that Vilandra wanted to rule, but couldn't because of Zan. She wanted to take out Zan, but needed a man behind her. A!Rath was too loyal and, if he was anything like WDAMYK!Michael, would've been far too hard to control. So, she has Kivar. I think she might've loved him, but that judging from her interactions with Nicholas that love didn't overwhelm her ambition. This is just my take on Vilandra though.

shapeshifter 0 6-03-2006 07:54 PM
misscriss, Your post above about the Max/Tess relationship is the best description I have ever read. And I'm more or less a Dreamer. I like the way the science fiction of Roswell (in this case, past lives influencing hybrid clones) has a crucial role in the character development. Do you think you could do the same with the Max/Liz relationship?

miss3cris 0 6-04-2006 12:12 AM
Sorry, *shapeshifter*, but M/L had an Earth bound relationship. This is what made Liz special to Max. She was his normal. If anything, I think the alien element most unique to their relationship (the flashes) was a minus rather than a plus to them. It made them lazy with each other. They had this instant mind melding and connection then when the connection broke down (around EOTW) they didn't have the communication skills and groundwork to fix their relationship w/out it. This led to some rather hurtful lies and actions on both their parts late S2 and in S3. *Misha* said in her post on the other page something about Tess not really knowing Max (and I agree w/ her to a certain extent), but I'd also apply that statement to M/L's relationship. When Max healed Liz, they saw into each other's "souls," but they didn't learn anything about who the other person was in a real life context. They never got real enough with each other so when circumstances started getting too real (like being attracted to other people, finding themselves drifting apart, Alex's death) they didn't know how to cope and keep it together. Even in S3, I didn't think that they had learned how to function as a healthy couple. They were only just beginning to hash out their issues w/ each other from S2 (in Changes to 4AAB, before that they esp Liz, who had to suppress herself more for it to work, had been trying to turn back the clock and pretend nothing ever happened) when the show ended and they just let them marry as if everything, every issue or problem, just ends when you're married. So, I think the alien aspects of M/L's relationship (not even touching on the alien politics or anything of the like) was detremental to them. It let them feel more connected to each other (in the Pilot, in SH, in S&B, in MiitC, in CDB) than they truly were. It made them feel like they should just know the other's feeling rather than work on be open with each other in a real way.

xmag 0 6-04-2006 02:48 PM

Quote:
the Dupe!Zan and Ava, who were supposed to remember Antar, were together,

What do you make of dupe Ava's statement about how Zan was waiting for someone else ? If they remembered their lives and were together, then why wasn't dupe Zan really happy with dupe Ava ?

Misha 0 6-04-2006 04:20 PM
Hey guys!! Interesting stuff going on here :D *shapeshifter*, I think dupe Zan was cool too! :nod: What I like about him is that self-confidence that Max seemed to lack for a while there. Zan knew his place, and take no crap from no one. Why did Zan suspect that the Summit might have been a trap, I have no idea. But he was right... As to *xmag*'s question about why would Zan be waiting someone else, I think it is a little unfair to expect the hybrids to pick up where their past lives ended. I don't know what the Antarians were thinking when this plan was invisioned. Maybe the hybrids were supposed to remember their past lives -at least to some degree- from the moment they emerged. Maybe they were supposed to emerge as adults. Who knows, but I can't get my mind around the idea that Max and co. and dupe Zan and co. were the original Zan and co. For instance, this dupe Vilandra and her ambitions contradict Michael's memory about alien Vilandra wanting peace, and helping Khivar because he had lied to her. Now, the politics of Antar, plus the character's motivations and personalities are mostly vague. We can make almost any scenario and it still will fit. But all that aside, I think dupe Zan had the same feeling that Max about having to follow what a book/person says. He didn't like things being imposed. These memories that he has are probably vague, about a man he's not, about a woman that Ava is not either. For all we know, dupe Zan was waiting for someone who was more like the Ava he remembered than the dupe Ava he had in front, who had her own personality and her own expectations as well. My last problem with the whole memory theory is that memories are deceiving. They change, adapt, and we reshape them as time passes. That's a fact for us, at least. Dupe Vilandra was a very ambitious woman, and she certainly remembered being with Khivar and -apparently- with Nikolas too. But maybe her ambitious side was a "human" trait, which she could definitely exploit knowing her previous position as Khivar's lover. Crap, I'm being called... :pout: I'll be back soon! Misha

miss3cris 0 6-04-2006 07:10 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by * Misha*
As to *xmag*'s question about why would Zan be waiting someone else, I think it is a little unfair to expect the hybrids to pick up where their past lives ended. I don't know what the Antarians were thinking when this plan was invisioned. Maybe the hybrids were supposed to remember their past lives -at least to some degree- from the moment they emerged. Maybe they were supposed to emerge as adults. Who knows, but I can't get my mind around the idea that Max and co. and dupe Zan and co. were the original Zan and co. ...But all that aside, I think dupe Zan had the same feeling that Max about having to follow what a book/person says. He didn't like things being imposed. These memories that he has are probably vague, about a man he's not, about a woman that Ava is not either. For all we know, dupe Zan was waiting for someone who was more like the Ava he remembered than the dupe Ava he had in front, who had her own personality and her own expectations as well. My last problem with the whole memory theory is that memories are deceiving. They change, adapt, and we reshape them as time passes. That's a fact for us, at least.

I completely agree with you. I think you're right to say that the memories are deceptive and that they sometimes manipulated the R4. I also like your take on Zan. Although I do believe that the memories of A!Z/A's love influenced M/T to start a romantic relationship with each other, I also think that, as I said of M/L's relationship and *Misha* pointed out in an earlier post, the memories gave them a false sense of intimacy. They went from 0 to 100, from just a kiss to sex to planning a future together, in like a week. They weren't ready for that amount of pressure on a relationship, but the intimacy that A!Z/A (I assume) legitimately earned by going through the steps needed to establish respect, communication, and other building blocks of a lasting relationship made them feel like they could do it. They had some key moments together recalling their past lives, but *Misha*'s right to say that that had little to do w/ their present lives. I just think for Tess, living such a lonely life with Nacedo as she did, that the memories were the only warmth she knew in this life making the life they recalled attractive to her and worth attempting to recreate and for Max, who at the time felt alienated from his present life, that the memories represented answers and possibilities that he hadn't considered for himself which is why he was beginning to want to pursue something with Tess. This is why I put emphasis on the memories in explaining M/T's relationship. For me, A!Z/A's past love was the draw for M/T and the reason they came together under the circumstances, but it was never the glue and the memories didn't hold them together. Perhaps if D!Zan had lived he would've left D!Ava or she him because s/he would've realized that they were only together because of a past love that is ultimately not their love or maybe they would've gotten pass relying on A!Z/A and built a relationship from their shared background in this life. Perhaps this was what Zan was looking for? We'll never know.

Misha 0 6-04-2006 10:24 PM
Okay, back :D

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Perhaps if D!Zan had lived he would've left D!Ava or she him because s/he would've realized that they were only together because of a past love that is ultimately not their love or maybe they would've gotten pass relying on A!Z/A and built a relationship from their shared background in this life.

*miss3criss*, I can definitely see that one coming, even for Max and Tess had Liz not been in the picture, or if she had left the picture for good. (granted, I can't picture Max with anyone else but Liz, but for the sake of argument... :look: ) The problem with M/T's relationship was that everything was pushing towards it. Tess was expecting it, Liz was expecting it -by pushing him towards her-, heck, an entire planet was expecting it somewhere :look: Had Max and Tess met under other circumstances, would they still have ended up together? Who knows, but I don't think there was something on Tess or Max that made them recognize each other as Zan/Ava. There were the dreams, of course, but... They are their own persons. The possibility is there, sure, but so is with every other girl and guy on the planet ;) Now, I don't think that M/L's relationship was the way you described it. I'm not saying this because I'm a Dreamer, just because I don't think it was. I think Max was in love of the illusion of Liz Parker in the beginning. A crush. A ten year crush... who became his lab partner. They probably were casual friends at best, but at least they got to know something about each other. About the way the talked, their friends. Their views. Max was lucky enough that Liz did turn out to be his dreamgirl -because Liz could have turned out to be anything- and without the shooting I don't think Liz would have had a clue about Max's feelings. Where I disagree with you is in the importance of the flashes to their relationship. We know they hardly ever happened. Sure, Max got a flash saving Liz, and then made it go back -making Liz know what Max felt- but they never happened again until briefly in /Blind Date/, and then in /Sexual Healing/, and that was only from Max's side, who was seeing her. I don't believe that Liz stayed with Max because he saved her. I think that brought them together, yes, but that they did get to know each other after that. Max was afraid that deep down Liz would think of him as a monster, he said so to her, until he saw on a flash that it wasn't true. So, if anything, the flashes helped them to overcome this "barrier". They both had every right to doubt the other for the obvious reason of fear of the alien aspect of their relationship. Were they immature? Hoped too fast too soon? Were caught up into "you are my soul-mate" thing? Hell, yeah, but as I once heard: "At sixteen, is always the real thing". They were teenages. There were a lot of things they didn't know, and things they didn't know how to handle. Of course they ended up lying and hurting each other. It was only natural. But the circumstances under all that happened were way over their heads, let alone their experience. /But/ they knew each other. They knew each other outside the alien aspect. The "connection", the flashes, were this something else that came oout of Max's alien side, okay, but it wasn't a base to their relationship. They didn't relay on those experiences to say "oh, so now I really know you". If anything, it was more of a "now I really accept you as you are". It has to take a lot of trust to know that someone can know really intimate things by just touching you, and still want to be touched by that person. So, they made a lot of mistakes while attempting to love each other, and protect each other. Where they a healthy couple? I don't know what that means -really, I'm not kidding, I don't know- but I do believe they tried to work it out one way or the other. They both had a tendency to bottle things up, not only from each other, but from the world as well, but sooner or later, they always told the other what was going on. Maybe not in the best, rational, healthy way, but they did. They worked hard for each other. Things fell apart when Liz thought she couldn't be with Max -and here comes Sean- and when Max thought he couldn't be with Liz -and here comes Tess. Had they had any hope left that they /could/ be with each other, they would have taken it faster than light. Getting married definitely did not resolve all of that if they forgot they had a past. But for me, that they got married meant that they worked it out and decided to have a future together. It was way too rushed, and they were way too young, but after saving the world and escaping alien and government conspiracies, I think I would have gotten married ASAP as well... :look: If anything, those kids knew just too well that "life *is* short." Now I think I have ranted again... sorry guys! Misha

xmag 0 6-05-2006 06:08 AM

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Max was lucky enough that Liz did turn out to be his dreamgirl -because Liz could have turned out to be anything- and without the shooting I don't think Liz would have had a clue about Max's feelings. I don't believe that Liz stayed with Max because he saved her. I think that brought them together, yes, but that they did get to know each other after that.

I don't believe that Liz stayed with Max because he saved her. She fell in love with him because he was him, not because he gave her flashes.

Misha 0 6-05-2006 09:03 AM
Definitely! :nod: Now back to work... sighs... :lurking: Misha

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