I love television shows about Nasa projects! We may be seeing new shows soon, as the Stardust mission, which has been collecting stellar dust during its 2.88 billion mile round-trip journey, is scheduled to return January 15!



If you read the above definition of science fiction, the definitions include the word “fantasy”.

All science fiction is fantasy. Science fiction includes such fantasies as faster that light travel, converting people to particles and beaming them from one space ship to another or down to a planet. Science fiction includes using imaginary devices like light sabers, star gates, and many other fanciful things that lack a scientific basis. Those elements are all fantasy, without a scientific explanation.

The idea that people could travel in spaceships from another star system to our planet is fantasy. We currently have some space travel. But no human has traveled to another planet. For practical considerations, including the cost and lack of means, we may not travel in person to any planet for the foreseeable future.

We can’t explain in scientific terms how we could live long enough to travel to any planet of another star system. If we could travel in person to another planet, we don’t know if there would be life on it. People enjoy thinking of the possibility that life could exist on other planets and that if life were on other planets, we might be able to see it and interact with it. That’s science fiction. The idea of people coming to Earth from other planets is also science fiction.

If you choose to restrict your definition of science fiction to a category of human-made devices and odd looking people, then you miss out on the creative ideas that science fiction offers in stories like Roswell.

Space exploration and the study of people and the study of other life forms are science. Biology is science.

We know from life on Earth that life forms can do things that we can describe, but can’t explain. We accept that as normal, even though we can’t explain them. We don’t know everything there is to know about ourselves and Earth, much less everything else about everywhere else.

We know that organisms have the ability to do things in remarkable ways. We can imagine that life forms from other worlds also could do extraordinary things. And we can think about how such things might be possible. Could the ability to send out power to repulse enemies be a natural part of life on other planets? Or could people on other planets engineer such a power into themselves through genetic manipulation?

Humans are all one species. There isn’t such a thing as human-alien hybrids.

Hybrids occur naturally, and we also create hybrids. That’s science. Roswell speculates on what alien-human hybrids might be like. It speculates about why aliens might come to Earth and what might happen, if they did. Those are science fiction ideas, as science fiction is defined.


It is imaginary for people to send out power from their bodies. It is imaginary for people to be changed to particles and be beamed and then reassembled elsewhere. It is imaginary to have light sabers or star gates. However, we have great stories from such imaginary, science fiction ideas!

For people who dream of what might be or could be, Roswell is an interesting and intriguing story! We learn about life, and we create new things, not only from what we know, but also from what we can imagine!


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And what about dreamwalking ? science-fiction or fantasy ? how can a being touch a pic and bam, she is into that person's dream ?

Horsefeathers. Did you not read the definition? "Scientific and technological developments" it says. What Max & the kids were doing had no basis in science, real or speculated.

- fiction dealing principally with the impact of actual or imagined science on society or individuals or having a scientific factor as an essential orienting component.

Again with the science! Remember, science is connected. If you have time travel, you have to have the mechanism you are using behind it; if not explicitly then in a plausible background. Saying it's an "alien power" is exactly the same as saying it's "magic", which isn't science. (Charmed isn't science fiction.)

- fiction in which scientific findings, capabilities, or speculations provide an essential basis for the imagined events. Roswell fits that definition. Vessels created by people can travel to other planets and do so in the series.
So? The lights go on and off when they flip the switch; does that make it a doccumentary about electricity? Part of the premise of Roswell is that the aliens have supernatural Powers. Science is absolutely about natural properties and abilities.

- A literary or cinematic genre in which fantasy, typically based on speculative scientific discoveries or developments, environmental changes, space travel, or life on other planets, forms part of the plot or background. Roswell fits that definition and specifically defines science fiction as fantasy, as you defined Roswell.
All fiction can be defined as some kind of "fantasy", even Sleepless in Seattle. But that's not science fiction, even though they use radios and telephones...

- a form of fiction that draws imaginatively on scientific knowledge and speculation in its plot, setting, theme, etc. . Roswell fits that definition of science fiction.
Specificly not! No scientific knowledge went into Roswell's plot, setting, theme, etc. In fact, the alien Powers have no basis in Science at all.

- literary genre in which a background of science or pseudoscience is an integral part of the story. Although science fiction is a form of fantastic literature, many of the events recounted are within the realm of future possibility, e.g., robots, space travel, interplanetary war, invasions from outer space. This definition of science fiction, like a previous definition, also includes the fantastic, as defining science fiction.
And specificly requires that the events recounted have some scientific possibility. Which Roswell ignored. Again, Charmed isn't science fiction, it's fantasy.

Although you perhaps prefer stories and ideas about the known, writers of fiction and of science fiction chose things that aren’t real, but might be. We don’t know if extraterrestrial aliens exist or what they might be like. We don’t know if they could ever come to earth.

But we do know that they will have to obey the same physical laws that we do. The Roswell aliens do not obey the physical laws of the universe we live in. It's not that they obey more subtle laws; they break natural laws. Therefore, it's not science, it's nonsense. All the definitions you found insist on science as a basis for the fictional story. Roswell doesn't have that, and so it's not science fiction.

We don’t know how to explain many things. For example,(...)
All explainable, as to how or why not.

In stories like Roswell, we can imagine the impossible being possible. :)
And that's why it's not science fiction. In science fiction, we imagine the plausible being possible.

And on a completely different subject,

Merry Christmas to one and all!

Ouah, fascinating discussion, although a little too scientific for my taste ! I am so not a scientist.

So, what do you think of Isabel's dreamwalking abilities ? based on science or complete fantasy ?

I'll say fantasy. Unless someone can tell me how mental telepathy works (even though it usually doesn't), then I'll have to take anything based on it as fantasy. Interesting fantasy, to be sure... :)

And xmag, you don't have to be a scientist. That's the beauty (and hardest part) of good science fiction; the stories have to be engaging, even if you don't follow the science part. Like you don't have to be a butler to follow PGWoodhouse's Wooster & Jeeves stories.

The way I see it, if the plot involves the use of (imaginary) scientific reasons for otherwise unexplainable occurances, then it's science fiction.
But if the fictional explanations consist of magic (beings or objects), it's fantasy.
So the show Charmed is fantasy, but Starman is science fiction because the glowy globe thingy is supposed to make perfect scientific sense on another planet.

Just my personal take on it.

As far as dreamwalking and Roswell go...I call it science fiction. Isabel doesn't claim her "powers" are magical; they are due to her being a different species, so to speak.

Well, sort of; you're on the right track. :)
Since all natural laws are the same everywhere, something has to make sense here if it makes sense there. Isabel being a "different species" doesn't make a difference; dropped rocks still fall down, and are accelerated by gravity at 32ft/sec^2 even if the rocks are from the Moon (or Twilo). Since no scientific explanation for Isabel's powers is given (or even attempted), I have to call it "fantasy".

Is anyone else faintly annoyed that KH's character on "Grey's Anatomy" is also called Isabel? Just checking... :rolleyes:

I thought it was kind of cool. :cool:

About dreamwalking--don't the Aborigones of the Australia outback dream walk? Or am I way off base?
"Lucid dreaming" is a psychological phenomenon in which the dreamer has a measure of conscious control over the dream. It's more or less a skill that can be developed. I of the overactive imagination can easily make a science fictiony leap to imagine that a very well-practised lucid dreamer might visit other dreamers. :look:

from an abstract by Schredl and Erlacher in the PsycInfo database:

"The term lucid dream designates a dream in which the dreamer is--while dreaming--aware that she/he is dreaming."

:sun:


Thanks, shapeshifter. :) I enjoy your insights. :)



Reggie, claiming that time travel isn’t science fiction won’t change the fact that time travel is classified as science fiction. Nor will it change the fact that Roswell has other ideas that you personally don’t accept as part of science fiction.

Maybe your underlying complaint about Roswell is that, in the story, aliens from another planet have powers that humans don’t have. If I understand you correctly, Roswell conflicts with your life view of the world and the universe. If I understand you correctly, you are unwilling for a story to exist that challenges your ideas about the world and the universe.

Fiction is an art form, which includes science fiction, which is fantasy.

Time travel stories are part of science fiction genre.

Here is a collections policy statement from The Library of Congress of the United States, which gives their definition of science fiction. (You can read the statement in its entirety at http://www.loc.gov/acq/devpol/scific.html ) I have highlighted some portions of the statement.

I. Introduction
This Collections Policy Statement deals with fantasy and science fiction and is intended to complement the existing Collections Policy Statement for Literature. While the latter statement addresses the need for the Library to acquire works by authors "whose writings are generally regarded as having literary merit [or] as representing important trends in serious creative writing", genre designations such as fantasy, science fiction, science fantasy, and horror often eliminate works of cultural and artistic merit from serious consideration by the literary mainstream. Although often overlooked, the predominantly Anglo-American genre of fantasy and its sub-genre, science fiction, both express and embody with increasing significance important elements of the popular culture of the United States, as well many other nations; hence, they are accorded separate treatment in the present statement.

II. Scope
This statement is addressed in particular to works specifically marketed by publishers as either fantasy or fiction, rather than to works of speculative fiction that have already achieved mainstream literary recognition, e.g., the fantasy and science fiction of George Orwell, Margaret Atwood, Aldous Huxley, Doris Lessing, Kurt Vonnegut, Jr., Anne Rice, et al., and are therefore covered by Literature. This statement also applies to non-book materials which share the same characteristics as print literature in these genres, especially moving image and recorded sound materials.
Throughout this statement particular attention is given to science fiction (although it is, in fact, a sub-genre of fantasy) because it dominates the genre of fantasy in terms of the total number of titles published. It will be the general rule, therefore, throughout this statement to speak of "fantasy and science fiction" together and on equal terms. Unless otherwise specified, however the provisions below apply equally to all of the other sub-genres of fantasy.

A. Fantasy
Fantasy includes the sub-genres of science fiction, horror and adaptations of traditional myths. The distinguished writer, Arthur C. Clarke, has stated that "any sufficiently advanced technology is undistinguishable from magic." (Omni, April 1980, p. 87.). This view is borne out by the fact that the distinctions between science fiction and the various other sub-genres of fantasy are indeed blurred at times and usually artificial. In fact, many authors in the genre frequently cross these artificial barriers in mid-work or in mid-career. Publishers, furthermore, often confuse these sub-genre identifications even further by failing to differentiate among them.
Publishers do, however, frequently identify books in these various sub-genres with tags which usually appear on the spine or cover of the individual books stating that they are specifically fantasy, horror, science fiction, etc. These tags may be very useful in identifying materials whose precise classification is doubtful or subject to various interpretations.
Although difficult to define with precision, fantasy usually requires a willing suspension of disbelief. Works in its various sub-genres often 1) adapt, rework, or provide an alternate telling of a myth or folktale; 2) involve an alternate reality or alternate universe; 3) rely on a displacement of time or space; or 4) make use of elements of the horrific, supernatural, paranormal, or the occult.

B. Science fiction
In addition to sharing any or all of the general characteristics listed above for fantasy, science fiction usually 1) is speculative in nature; 2) assumes change as a given; 3) projects a story-line into the future or into an alternative reality or history; 4) explores a problem in technology, culture, philosophy, etc. beyond its current state; and 5) presents an atmosphere of scientific credibility regardless of the reality. Not all science fiction 1) takes place in the future; 2) involves space travel; 3) describes technology beyond current reality; or 4) deals with alien cultures. However, these elements are common in this sub-genre and uncommon outside it.




You can check with your local library and with amazon.com and with imdb.com (The Internet Movie Database) to see time travel stories listed as science fiction. H.G. Wells’ The Time Machine, Back to the Future I, II, III, The Terminator movie series, 12 Monkeys, and others are among time travel stories listed as science fiction.

Science fiction isn’t science fact. If you prefer science fact stories, there are many books, magazines, internet sites, movies, and television programs about science that may interest and delight you. :)

If you prefer science fiction stories without time travel and without aliens who can do things in ways that humans can’t do, then staying with what is plausible to you may be your best choice.

Many people, including scientists, enjoy science fiction, including stories of faster than light travel, time travel, alternate universes, and other magical ideas and concepts.

If you are interested in scientists’ ideas about time travel, you can read a Nova interview with Carl Sagan, the astronomer and Pulitzer Prize-winning author. The interview took place during the making of the Nova program "Time Travel." The interview is at http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/time/sagan.html


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I never said that. Time travel has been established as at least theoreticly possible, within our current knowlage. There are also possible methods suggested beyond our current knowlage. I have no problems with time travel.

Maybe your underlying complaint about Roswell is that, in the story, aliens from another planet have powers that humans don’t have. If I understand you correctly, Roswell conflicts with your life view of the world and the universe. If I understand you correctly, you are unwilling for a story to exist that challenges your ideas about the world and the universe.

:lol: You appearently do not understand me correctly. My "life view" (whatever that is) is of minimal consequence. Reality is, and unless you make at least an attempt to explain story elements at variance with reality you are dealing in fantasy. Even stories about "magic", if handled rigorously, can be called science fiction. Note Heinlein's "Waldo" stories, and the Lord D'Arcy stories (I forget who wrote those).

I'll also recomend Niven & Pournelle's "Ringworld" series. Of particular interest is the Author's Note for the second book.

Roswell isn’t a reality show. Roswell is science fiction, which is fantasy, which is limited only by one’s imagination. :)

If aliens actually came to earth, we might examine them.

Lacking any aliens to examine, we can imagine aliens to be any way we wish – two-headed, no-head, with feathers, without feathers, bigger than humans, smaller than humans, recognizable as aliens, unrecognizable as aliens, having powers like humans, or having powers that humans don’t have.

If aliens actually had powers to do things in ways that we can’t do things, then we might scientifically study them. But we don’t have any aliens to study. We can only imagine what aliens from another planet, who came to Earth might be like.

Aliens from another planet, who were exactly like us in every way, wouldn’t really be very alien. They could just as well be from Earth. Aliens who looked odd would be readily identifiable and wouldn’t blend in. But aliens who look like humans and who can do things in ways that we can’t do things would be interesting. The idea of aliens with special powers is an intriguing concept. :)



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Reggie,

I like it that Katie can't seem to escape Roswell. Not only is her name Isobel (spelling a little different) but her last name is Stevens, very similar to Evans. Add the boyfriend, Alex, and it almost seems more than coincidence. Since I have no difficulty jumping into a "fantasy" interpretation, I like to think that Isabel Evans is hiding out from the alien hunters disguised as Isobel Stevens, the doctor. Jesse was disbarred for refusing to help the Feds locate his wife and moved to Miami to start all over again. He even helped Michael get a job. Tess moved to Australia and assumed a new identity but now she's lost on some island. At least she gets to keep her baby this time. Amy moved out of Roswell and went into Jim's line of work. Maria's gone back to singing the kind of music she likes. What's happened to the others I'm not sure but they pop up on the radar every once in a while. Anyone else had any Roswellian sightings?

Citrus,

I hardly ever get to "talk" to you anymore. Would you care to use your analytical skills on Invasion or perhaps Lost? Then there's 24 starting soon. My favorite character after Jack is Chloe. She is so endearingly, socially challenged but she does really well with eliminating the bad guys. What shows are you watching and/or commenting on?

When last seen, young Mr. Hanks was in some movie with a big monkey. SA has been doing little movies, and a dumb fantasy movie for the Sci-Fi Channel.
And is it wrong, :nono: so very wrong, to remember that KH was the one who wanted to get away from Roswell? And laugh my fool head off? :lmao:

Citrus & Vine, Great information about fantasy and scifi from the Library of Congress. As a librarian, I guess I should have known that scifi is considered a subset of fantasy--but I didn't. But then I'm an "academic" librarian, so rarely see fiction unless it's a classic.

Algieba, I love the way you imagine the characters of Roswell transplanted into their new roles. So, it's "Isobel Stevens." I wonder if the "Stevens" is like "Samantha Stevens," who Isabel imagined herself as playing in the "I Married an Alien" episode (which I loved).

And, as we perhaps exit from discussion of Time Travel, I will leave you with a 40-year-old picture of myself and my eighth grade science fair project (large parts of which I more or less copied out of an encyclopedia or Time/Life book). I still love to think about time travel.

That is so interesting, shapeshifter. Even though you copied large parts of it out of books, what did your eighth grade mind come up with as a conclusion? Did you have a theory yourself about time travel at that age? Were you interested in science fiction at that age? I can't tell from the picture if that is a diagram or what. I'm curious if it was well received by teachers and other students. I don't mean your grade but whether or not others had an interest in the subject.

I remember being more interested in history and other countries at that age. I wanted to know about the whole world. Now I want to know about the whole universe. At least I shouldn't ever run out of data to study. I do remember getting a big chart of our solar system when I was about seven years old. Saturn looked absolutely beautiful. I decided then and there that someday I wanted to go to Saturn. It was blue and had swirling rings and was much prettier than the other planets. My imagination of what might be there was driving me more than scientific fact.

I think a certain glee is quite appropriate, Reggie, in relationship to Miss Heigle's continued association with something she apparently only wanted to escape. What is wierd though, is she seems to have changed her mind yet again and again. A while back I read that she said she wasn't going to play any more adolescent roles. She felt adult roles were what she wanted from then on. Then later, before Grey's Anatomy became such a big hit, she gave an interview in which she said she would welcome the chance to play a younger person again. She even said she would be interested in a Roswell movie. Now that GA is such a success I wonder if she has changed her mind yet again.

Shapeshifter:
Any kind of Fiction can be described as "fantasy", but customarily Fiction is divided into a subset called Science Fiction, and a seperate subset called Fantasy, and other subsets called Romance, Detective, etc., which all may partially overlap. Isaac Asimov's "Caves of Steel" series was written specificly to be science fiction/detective stories. C&V is confusing the Fiction level of "fantasy" with the subset level of Fantasy. Roswell is both; and science fiction is one (AND NOT) the other. (Booliean algebra.)

Dr. Robert Forward, noted sci-fi author, wrote a book a few years ago titled (IIRC) "Indistinguishable from Magic", where he went into detail about the various possibilities for time travel. Two I remember were close passage near a rotating black hole, and relativistic motion of one end of a wormhole in space which creates a wormhole with ends at two different times as well. I don't know where my paperback copy is, but since Shapeshifter is a Librarian I expect she'll have the ISBN and Dewy Decimal numbers momentarily... :D

Here you go Reg:
ISBN: 0671876864
Of course, "momentarily" in shapeshifter-time warp is rather lengthy. ;)
It's Library of Congress classification number is: PS3556.O754
which evidentally represents this subject heading: Technological forecasting -- fiction.
There is only one other book listed in WorldCat with that subject heading, Foresight capacity: a look at America in the year 2050 A.D., and both books were published in 1995.
Foresight capacity is still in print, but only 14 libraries big enough to belong to OCLC own it.
Indistinguishable from Magic is out of print, but 62 libraries own it, including Harvard's library.
But I can't get it through my academic library interlibrary loan, because the only copy is in a "Special Collection," and I can't get it via my public library's interlibrary loan, because my daughter has an overdue video, which causes my account to be blocked.
Okay, I'll stop now.


Algieba, Yes, Saturn is so special--it's like it was created to lure us into exploring it.


The images in my science fair project are of twin brothers, one of whom becomes an astronaut, who travels almost as fast as the speed of light.
There's a picture of them as babies, and another as boys, another as adults;
in all of those pictures they are identical (except for the space suit on the one adult image).
Then there's a 4th set of pictures, which shows the astronaut much as he was in the 3rd image, while the brother is a bald, wrinkled man.

Although it doesn't seem that there is a copyright on the concept....
See, for example:

Time dilation is not an illusion. Suppose we have a pair of non-identical twins named Alice and Bob. If Alice flew to the stars in a paceship moving at a good percentage of the speed of light ("relativistic" speed) while Bob stayed at home, when Alice came back to Earth, she would be younger than Bob.
This is known as the "Twin Paradox".

...The images I used were totally plagiarized, but I imparted some originality by making it 3-D, with the latest images in front, and the earliest in back. And there were other items in the display, but no doubt plagiarized from other sources. I got a blue ribbon that year, and the previous year too (that one was about fossils), with the strength of presentation carrying the day (I have always had the ability to create realistic images in any media).

I don't know how the general public of students and parents looked at it.
Then and now I tend to miss social cues unless they're really overt.

But as I grow older, the idea of traveling back in time has great appeal, though it has always seemed unlikely to me -- largely because of the impact of that science fair project and the theory that time could only be slowed down a bit, but never reversed.

Now I'm thinking about Future Max in Season 2 and then Season 3, in which Liz blaimed Present Max for Future Max's decision to break them up...



P.S. One of my favorite science fiction series when I was in elementary school were the Flight to the Mushroom Planet books. I still recall how they built the space ship of flattened tin cans, and how it seemed possible that I too could build such a ship that would fly into outer space.

So it's not such a stretch in my mind to imagine that time travel and dreamwalking could be real. :look: