For those who are new to R&I, our method is simple: we like to approach Roswell -- it's themes, characters, motifs, and any other elements that don't quite fit onto other established threads -- according to our own experience.

Has a literary analogy inspired you to interpret and speculate about Roswell? We have and continue to discuss the relevance of many authors, from Milton to JRR Tolkien to Frank Oz and beyond.

Do you find yourself understanding certain aspects of the show by assigning any theory or paradigm (perhaps psychological or mythological) to represent certain developments or the progression of action? Jung's archetypes are of great interest, and many times we have pulled upon the classical myths and legend of ancient Greece and Rome to explain the significance of certain scenes or plot evolution.

Perhaps you simply have an insight based upon your own personal experience that you can contribute to the discussion, or saw a movie that paralleled something Roswellian so distinctly that the rest of us would be interested. For instance, Star Wars immediately comes to mind.

Whatever it is, we'd like to hear it. Please come on in!

Also, it is my distinct pleasure to welcome the discussion of Roswell and Joseph Campbell's "Hero's Journey" into the R&I forum. Based upon what posters have already generated on NyLoN's original thread (feel free to recreate or reintroduce the more salient points here), this is a topic both relevant and timely as we head towards mid-season. You can find previous posts at http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/002309.html

So ... have at it! We've work to do and a whole new season to analyze!

Since it's so late and not many are posting, I just thought I'd give this thread a little bump , though I'm sure many more capable thinkers will post tomorrow. For now, I invite one and all to read Qfanny's in depth summation of references to the Beatles' Rocky Raccoon found in Roswell.

I am so glad you are back. I really missed this thread even though I did not post much on it!

Aside from Rocky Raccoon, shapeshifter and I find that the lyrics apply to Max/Liz/Kyle much better in season one. (See the Rocky Raccoon link on shapeshifter's post.)

There has also been a lot of Elvis references during season two, particulary within the last 4 episodes. I am not famaliar with Elvis songs, but maybe someone knows enough about Elvis to think of a song that the writers have going on in the back of their heads done by Elvis. I am sure that is how all these references are coming across.

Nemo: Unfortantely, I cannot help you out with your questions (I think that has always been the case). I wouldn't know the NY skyline from any other big city skyline. But perhaps the TWIN towers is merely a reference to the DUPES (which are the evil twins)....

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
BehrAll!

I am so glad you are back. I really missed this thread even though I did not post much on it!

Me too! Er, I mean -- you know what I mean ...

quote:
There has also been a lot of Elvis references during season two, particulary within the last 4 episodes. I am not famaliar with Elvis songs, but maybe someone knows enough about Elvis to think of a song that the writers have going on in the back of their heads done by Elvis. I am sure that is how all these references are coming across.

You might be interested in something I came across a while ago (please do not ask the circumstances) that you might find interesting. Check this out: http://www.ibiblio.org/elvis/alien.html

Later!

great to see this thread be reborn!

nemo: about the symolism of the new york skyline... i've been seeing the whole max in the city image as similar to dante's version of hell? perhaps the fact that the dupes have such an apparently grim and gritty existance in n.y.c. sends me in this direction. or maybe the whole dupes story references the "prince and the pauper" tradition (even with the duplicate max being deceased....?)

when i think of elvis i think of someone who had so much adulation and money heaped upon him that it smothered him in the end...i hope i'm not offending anyone with that comment...but certainly it's a risk for all the podsters, especially max: somewhere on the hero's journey they all need to come to terms with the potential for other's to put them/him on a pedestal and with the damage this could inflict to the process and outcome of the journey/story/characters.

jenlev

Okay, "what"? In other words, the final product is one of unity between the past, the present and the future, and of balance between function and individuality; a triumph of commemoration and endurance.

Of course, this isn't always a good thing. Anyone else remember the words of P.B.Shelley, 1817:

"And on the pedestal, these words appear:
My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!"

Yikes. Ozzie, meet Zan ...

Final thought: does anyone remember the shape of the towers? Because cylindrical forms represent eternal purity ... the "separation" of towers could represent the dualism and resulting imperfections of the 2 sets of podsters.

Okay, getting obscure, even for me!

Besides, Roswell's on. Later!

just a quick note with a total tangent...i was just watching the local public t.v. station and they briefly mentioned some apparent (?) evidence that in the ancient culture on malta there was a belief that spirits that had 'passed on' previously could be integrated into a new fetus if a specific ceremony was completed.

apparently this ritual took place in a dome/cave like structure carved out of solid rock. i have no idea how much of this is true; and haven't yet been able to research it. does anyone else know about it? because if it's true it speaks to just how long the tradition of creating a hybrid being has been around?

i hope this isn't too much of an over-the- top-tangent.

jenlev

"Adding to this fantastic imagery is the presence of large "oracle holes" carved into the stone walls of the ancient temples. It is believed that priests, or oracles, sat in a tiny room on one side of the hole, where their echoing voices would communicate between the worlds of the living and the dead."
~From http://www.discoveringarchaeology.com/0800toc/8traveler1-malta.shtml

The only deity was the Earth Goddess - the Great Goddess ... forever pregnant with a newly dead soul who needed to be reborn into a happy afterlife, just as she saw to it that new crops appeared from the mystery of last year’s death.
~From http://www.xs4all.nl/~mkosian/architec.html

Because it occurs to me that this is indeed reminiscent of the pods, of Max and Isabel's (alien) mother, of the (re)creation of new life from old ... very cool.

behrall: thanks for the links on the malta references. the second one seems to fit especially well. after 'max in the city' i can't help but wonder if there were different alien essenses 'planted' in the different sets of pods...and how the mythological tradition of inherited essense or spirit impacts the issue of how much the past personality influences the present one? it's that old "nature and nuture" issue again?

jenlev

Here are a few excerpts from the Hero's Journey thread that I find particularly intriguing and provocative (and I hope no one minds that I pulled these over; if you do, let me know and I'll take them out. What I think we'd all prefer, though, is some development instead!):

NyLoN wrote:
The Hero's Journey is perhaps the most famous method of storytelling ever. First used by Homer, it was given 'shape' by Joseph Campbell in this century. Since then, it has been the basis for many of the most famous and popular works of fiction. To some extent, all fiction works from it at some level. For many authors it is a subconscious thing (as the Hero's Journey is rather flexible) but for some others it is like a 'bible'...

[T]he Hero's Journey is a series of stages that a hero(ine) must go through during her adventure. It is flexible in that the stages are not clearly defined (see below) and that Campbell admits that one need not follow all the stages for it to be a true journey. ... The Hero's Journey (which I will refer to as HJ from now on) does not apply to an entire plotline, but rather to a character or several characters ...

[N]obody in Roswell is done the HJ, they are only part way through. However, I think there is an interesting parallel, and it seems obvious to me that the writers are following the HJ closely. This allows the possibility of predicting future events, in no means would these be guaranteed to happen, but if the writers hold true to form I would consider them likely to occur. First I'll give the various stages of the (HJ) and then relate them to Max.

1./ Call to Adventure
The hero must first be forcibly drawn into the adventure, this occurs from a normal occurrence and not something strange or supernatural.

2./ Threshold Guardian
The hero must face a minor obstacle that blocks his way to the adventure.

3./ Wise and Helpful Guide
The inexperienced hero must find a guide who will aide him with advice and materials which will be instrumental in his journey.

4./ Into the Labyrinth
The hero must step out into the unknown and the ‘den of evil'.

5./ Heroic Deeds
The hero much engage in mortal combat, often sacrificing something or someone for the further good to continue his quest.

6./ Trials
The midway point of the hero's journey is marked by a series of trials, ordeals, tests and obstacles.

7./ Into the Belly of the Beast
A popular occurrence is the literal swallowing of the hero by some great beast. This often marks the entrance to a mythical world where a great transformation occurs. However, in most works the belly of the beast is a metaphor for a stronghold of the enemy.

8./ Sacrifices
The opening of the mind and heart of the hero requires he be prepared to (or in some cases does) sacrifice something of great import to him.

9./ Antonement
The hero's journey sometimes includes a "father quest". After many trials and ordeals, the hero finds his father and becomes "at one" with him. (Note, this is the step that would normally be eliminated to create 13 stages. It seems possible, even likely, that it will be included in Roswell so I include it here.)

10./ Return
The hero then returns to his home with newfound powers, knowledge or ability to benefit his people.

11./ Return of Evil
The hero is not the only one who is reborn, the forces of evil also reform and come anew.

12./ Enchanted Forest
The inhabitants of the enchanted forest are strange creatures who can be both helpful and dangerous. The hero must know how to get them to aid him on his quest. (Note, this is the second most likely step to be removed to create 13 stages, I keep it because firmly believe it will occur in Roswell)

13./ Heart of Darkness
The hero must enter the centre of power for evil in order to destroy it or its' leader

14./ Final Victory and Journey's End
In the end the hero triumphs over evil and brings forth something new, be it enlightenment, power, understanding or a whole new society.

And a personal favourite by czech please:
While I can see the "traditional" HJ manifested very clearly in Max, I think Liz is a much better example of the emotional HJ. Her relationship with Max is key in her journey, but it isn't the only issue she's dealing with (or needs to deal with!). Melinda Rose Goodin['s] words are in italics, mine are in normal text.

"The Hero's Journey can be physical or emotional. An emotional journey, such as usually occurs in a romance, takes the protagonist from her normal state of affairs and challenges her ideas, beliefs and
current existence. A proactive protagonist responds to such challenges, undergoing tests of her moral fiber and emotional strength. Frequently she will have to examine all that she has believed to be true before a major confrontation. It is here that she pulls victory from disaster. And it is here that she seeks to return to normalcy. Many writers believe this is the end of the journey. But it isn't.

You could find many other examples, but I'm pegging EOTW as Liz "major confrontation" since it was her actions here EOTW that really pulled "victory from disaster." The future was changed and (we assume) the events FM warned her of do not come to pass. At this point, she knows all she has gone through with (and for) Max has changed her, but believes that part of her life is over now. She's hoping that things can be relatively normal again, and will likely try to resume the life she had before Max. She will, of course, be unsuccessful.

"The protagonist has not finished learning the lessons of the journey until she has released the old beliefs that had her stuck at the beginning of the story."

The issue at the heart of Liz's HJ, the thing that she must overcome, is the myth of her own insignificance. She believes firmly in her ability to control her own destiny, but often dismisses the notion that she is any more than an obstacle to Max's journey. She's wrong. In EOTW, we learn that it is their love that damns them and those they care about. This is huge! Liz's romance, her emotional connection, determines the fate of the world. And ultimately, she is the one has the power to save everyone. Unfortunately, she doesn't recognize this power, only the fact she will be alone now. Her journey isn't over yet.

The final test often requires she let go of something she has cherished or hoarded for all of this time.

Now we get into my own speculation. Liz and Max's HJ's have intersected many times already, and I believe that they will evetually merge together. This is why I don't worry too much about their couple status. As I've said before, I think there is much more to Liz that we have seen and that her destiny is more important than she could possibly imagine. I think things she has accepted at face value her whole life will be turned upside down. Her ultimate sacrifice will be the belief that she is normal. Once she accepts that she is no longer "the smallest of small town girls," she will need to accept entirely new perspectives and responsibilities. At that point, the hero's journey that has we've seen unfold on Roswell so far will be over and another phase in her life will begin.

And Michelle in Yonkers wrote:
Max feels betrayed by all around him, esp. the one he instinctively trusted most of all - - who hurt him most deeply and intimately. How is he to trust himself and his instincts ever again? And what will guide him if he can't feel an inner sense of rightness?

... I think his Enchanted Forest might be doubt or just bitterness or anger; an unwillingness to go forward with all that's being thrust upon him if he can't see anything to fight for, if his heart is not protected.

Btw, EL, if you're ever around, I want to say how much I liked your take on Dante -- very nice tie-in with Beatrice, IMO. Works nicely with jenlev's take on New York, a modern-day Dante's Hell.

And Whirling Girl? Wow, you pulled in the Beatles. I'm tearing up, I swear.

And BehrAll, Queen of the MegaPosts, takes a bow

There seem to be several correlations between Roswell and religious mythology emerging, particularly in relation to Catholicism.

A few posters have already noted the symbolism of Max atop the Empire State Building, surveying the city below as 'king', Tess stating that he deserved to be ruler, etc., to the temptation of Christ, or any holy figure.

Parallels between Liz and the Virgin Mary, as well as Christ have been established as well; in the most dire situations, in both seasons, the final sacrifice has always been placed in Liz's hands. During the Liz dreamwalk sequence in NY, someone mentioned that Liz appears in a classic VM pose.

On connections to Inferno -
Liz's 'dreamwalk' to New York to warn Max of danger during MITC is yet another instance of a Dante-Divina Commedia-inspired theme recurring throughout Roswell, and of Liz's symbolic representation of Beatrice. In Inferno, Beatrice descends from Heaven to Purgatory to appoint Virgil as Dante's guide, thus ensuring Dante's salvation. Liz appears as a vision in NYC ( NYC representing Hell) to save, or redeem, Max.

I also want to include an interesting thought I came across while browsing the boards - someone mentioned a correlation between Liz's 'altered state' and the physical changes every girl undegoes as they grow. After having a sexual experience for the first time, whether it be the act of consummation of itself or even simply a kiss, girls often survey their appearances searching for changes in their physicalities, to reflect the inward differences they feel. The 'Liz in the mirror' closing scene of MITC could've been symbolic of this. Roswell is full of such direct metaphors - the show itself was originally intended to be a direct metaphor for teen alienation, and so the writers often use sci-fi parallels to express many of the feelings and changes that occur in the lives of adolescents.

The issue at the heart of Liz's HJ, the thing that she must overcome, is the myth of her own insignificance. She believes firmly in her ability to control her own destiny, but often dismisses the notion that she is any more than an obstacle to Max's journey. She's wrong. In EOTW, we learn that it is their love that damns them and those they care about. This is huge! Liz's romance, her emotional connection, determines the fate of the world. And ultimately, she is the one has the power to save everyone. Unfortunately, she doesn't recognize this power, only the fact she will be alone now. Her journey isn't over yet.
[/B]

A quick comment - I read this passage when it was originally posted and in MITC when Liz is about to dreamwalk/mindwarp Max - remember how she says "I dont know why - but I am so SCARED to do this".
I immediately thought of her HJ and this passage.

Hello to all the Liz mythologists I see here :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Something rather silly and trivial, but it bugs me. Max In The City reminded me of something stupid from another episode. At the end of MitC, as Max, Tess, Lonnie, and Rath were walking around the corner, and R/L were planning to kill Max, the sign painted on the building behind/above them said FISH STORE (I think it was store). Anyhow, I remember thinking with a chuckle that Max should have known something "fishy" was going on. It reminded me of the episode "Surprise", when Max and J.Valenti were searching Grant's room, there was a dead fish hanging behind his door, apparently out of place. Did anyone else think this was odd or "fishy"? (Twin Peaks-ish?) Could it have been a red herring? (snicker snort)

Hi, starbox! Nice to meet you.

And of course, Max making the "v" behind Liz's head seems downright symbolic ... which reminds me ...

Palomino -- you just reminded me of something. Check out the pic of the Flying Fish constellation on this site http://spaceboy.nasda.go.jp/Db/Utyu/Seiza/Seiza_E/Volans_e.html
and tell me you don't see the V constellation with something in the middle, another planetary factor, perhaps ... maybe Earth? Or Liz? Thrown right in the middle of the whole mess? Literally propelled into NY to save Max? He who produces both the "V" and the theoretical means of altering its status quo?

Kinda out there, but kinda cool.

Because it occurs to me that this is indeed reminiscent of the pods, of Max and Isabel's (alien) mother, of the (re)creation of new life from old ... very cool.

I know that this is a kind of basic thought for this thread, but what the heck, here goes anyway:

The idea of being reborn into a happy afterlife kind of reminds me of the ongoing argument about who Zan was and whether Max would make a good king.

Max has a happy life. He's got parents and a sister who love him, friends, a job, that whole school thing that they're all but ignoring this season .

The difference between whatever his old life was and this one might make the difference between a dead King Zan and a live Max Evans . . .

Did that make any sense?

This morning I woke up thinking that Max, Tess, and Liz were a Roswellian type of Trinity.

Over on the Archetypes Page of the Archive site I finally managed to post this picture to go with the Season 1 discussion of Liz as a type of Virgin Mary. Right now I'm thinking that Liz & Maria rejoicing over their virginity was a little reminiscent of John leaping for joy in his mother's womb when pregnant Mary came to visit.

Notice the Sacred Heart symbol on her pants.

No; it's all good!

quote:The idea of being reborn into a happy afterlife kind of reminds me of the ongoing argument about who Zan was and whether Max would make a good king.

Max has a happy life. He's got parents and a sister who love him, friends, a job, that whole school thing that they're all but ignoring this season .

The difference between whatever his old life was and this one might make the difference between a dead King Zan and a live Max Evans . . .

Did that make any sense?

Of course it makes sense -- this is where the entire "nature vs. nurture" debate becomes realized, takes on mythic proportions, and will be tested out with vast intergalactic implications.

(Ahem, any certain R&I regulars wish to reiterate their positions on n vs n? )

Just look at MITC -- how did Max make his decisions? He weighed all the advice he received and ended up going with that of his most trusted people (even if he won't admit to himself how much he values their opinion).

You know, it kind of makes me think of Luke Skywalker in The Empire Strikes Back: he doesn't follow the sage if cryptic wisdom of his "trusted" advisors, and look what happens -- he almost gets himself killed, his entire understanding of his existence is turned upside down, and he takes on a piece of darkness that he can never eradicate from his soul or body (thinking of "finding" his father, his heritage, and losing both Han and his hand -- all crucial elements of his survival.)

Max, notably, resists Luke's temptation -- although he wishes to save his friends, family and people just as fiercely, Max does not give in to "the power of the dark side", a.k.a. becoming a puppet king (with Khivar as Emperor). Okay, so neither did Luke, but he went AWOL in a rash and premature attempt to determine the future without truly understanding the situation, the players or the consequences ... um, okay, maybe Max did do that. And maybe Max did lose his current right hand man too after being betrayed by "allies" ... BUT the fact remains that Max found his way and made his stand according to what he knew what right and true. Go, Max!

Max's upbringing, and everything and everyone around him are, as he says, what makes him human. And I have every confidence that this is what will save them all in the coming conflict (yep -- that's right. You pick the conflict: hand-to-hand combat, diplomacy, ping pong ... whatever form it takes, Max is and will be "the man").

Okay, I recognize the level of incoherency threatening to overwhelm my post. I'll ... I'll just go now.

Just thought I'd poke my nose into your thread, see what it was all about. Wow. I'm wishing I was back in college right now, because then my brain would be better attuned to thinking along these lines. As it is, I'm woefully out of practise, so I haven't anything to contribute for now. If I think of something, I'll stop by again.

Great commentary, everyone!

about the nature vs. nurture issue: i am a firm believer in the idea that it's nature AND nurture...and the charactor of max presents a very good example of this. as behrall said, his upbringing (nurture) had a huge amount to do with his decision not to accept the deal offered at the summit.

perhaps he had an instinctive mistrust of something that seemed 'too easy'. certainly nikolas has done nothing to inspire max's faith in any deal offered. and although it's apparent that max is more then ambivalent about being a king (he doesn't seem to want the job). he certainly doesn't present as interested in being any more of a puppet (pawn) then he already experiences himself as?

interesting that the former allie who was utilizing brody's body, mentioned that max was trying to make a lot of changes when he was king...perhaps the king was reluctant to be on the throne at that time as well? any examples from literature and mythology about reluctant kings come to mind? and how does increased ambivalence/reluctance impact the hero's journey?

jenlev

Hey jenlev (knew you'd have something on n vs. n!). I too would love to hear something about the hero's journey on this one ... and as for reluctant kings ... that is such a provocative statement, it has got to be ringing bells for someone!

quote:Originally posted by Nemo:
At the beginning of MTD, we got a long look at the New York skyline, dominated by the World Trade Center, and I wondered if this was meant to evoke The Two Towers. (Next is The Return of the King?) I don't remember much of the story, but my wife says there are many parallels.
(edited 11-26-2000).]

You know ... I've been mulling this over ... and I am seeing some definite parallels (anyone here a total LOTR fan who could flesh out some of this? Pretty please?).

Do you see Liz as Galadriel, or for that matter, either Isabel or Tess?

I'm sort of toying with the idea of Michael as a Frodo figure, if only because of the whole Shelob the spider brush with death ... and his suggestive induction into the enemy camp ... thinking of the Exile Skins here.

I'm kind of fond of the image of Nasedo as Boromir rather than a Gandalf (although then you could argue Tess for Pippin, LOL), but he question is, would Max be a Sam or an Aragorn?

As for "The Return of the King" -- absolutely! The hasty departure to stave off war, the dangerous short-cuts through "The Path of the Dead" (shades of Zan's legacy, anyone?), the possession of minds by malevolent forces, the magical healing of the King's Touch, the battle with temptation and corruption (because of the ring) ... okay, starting to hyperventilate.

Better go find a paper bag.

I really like this thread! Ohhh...I wished I had something really great to say, but I figure, if I can surround myself with great minds, some of it will rub off on me...!!!

I so admire everyone's expansive ideas!
Giving this a bump!!

m-14

Here are the lyrics: No infridgment intended, used for the purpose of academic discussion of Roswell:
quote:
I'm looking through you, where did you go?
I thought I knew you, what did I know?
You don't look different, but you have changed
I'm looking through you, you're not the same

Your lips are moving, I cannot hear
Your voice is soothing, but the words aren't clear
You don't sound different, I've learned the game
I'm looking through you, you're not the same

Why tell me why you did not treat me right?
Love has a nasty habit of disappearing overnight

You're thinking of me, the same old way
You were above me, but not today
The only difference is your down there
I'm looking through you, and I don't know
where

Why tell me why you did not treat me right?
Love has a nasty habit of disappearing overnight

I'm looking through, where did you go?
I thought I knew you, what did I know
You don't look different, but you have changed
I'm looking through you, you're not the same.

If you need me to post why I think this song is well suited to Liz, let me know!!!! shapeshifter asked me to post this reference here, so I hope you like it.

If you need me to post why I think this song is well suited to Liz, let me know!!!! shapeshifter asked me to post this reference here, so I hope you like it.

Qfanny -- I'm in awe. Just ... awe. That is so perfect!

Oh wow ... Actually, speaking of relevant songs, a friend made me this tape after EotW:

Time Warp
Eve of Destruction
End of the World
Save Tonight
Leaving Me Now
Bye Bye Bye
Careless Whisper
Hands to Heaven
Against All Odds
Blister In the Sun
Ballad for Dead Friends
It's the End of the World As We Know It

Funny, eh? But each one has some lines in it that just evoke certain scenes ... sigh.

Okay, so I didn't analyse a thing. Someone's going to ask for i.d. in a moment. But I would invite speculation about the significance of including Blister in the Sun ... that one still confuses me ...

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Kyle as Bishop: (hee hee, spiritual advisor, but also) doesn't really move forward as expected, makes his own way -- eg, attempted to go Liz's way but could follow her only up to a point, and now he makes his own unique path cutting right across convention -- even going counter (counter=cross=diagonal?)

or,

Michael as Rook: straightforward, charge-right-in-there kind of guy but capable of some serious sideways stepping and 90 degree turns (not quite pulling a 180, but changing, oh yeah)

Oh yeah, and:

Liz as Queen: multidirectional; when she acts, she is capable of both tiny steps and great leaps; arguably the best piece to keep in orbit around the King -- for his protection, of course -- although she protects him even when they're apart. And let's face it ... if human history has taught us much, it's that Elizabeth makes a great name for a Queen.

(No bias shown there! But I will admit to some, okay?)

Max as King: takes slow, cautious steps, doens't move until forced to, is surrounded by advisors and soldiers whose primary purpose is and has been his protection, and hmmm ... and he has teleported at least once that we know of, and *gasp* if Courtney et al had their way (and he didn't get off his butt to get into the leader thing) it is the Rook he would conceivably switch leader status with!

Ooh! and now that Zan's dead ... Max's the only King on his side, although there are doubles of all his courtiers!!! Love the symmetry, just love it. (Oh, btw, I'm not accepting Lonnie and Rath as dead until they say so.) So ... cool.

And let's not forget ... if he falls, the game's all over.

Um, or where you talking Lewis's Through the Looking Glass? Because then ... okay, I'll give someone else a chance to speak ... for now.

Later!

Oh, and Zero: take all you like ... just don't forget to give back!

ok, i just can't resist... did somebody mention 'through the looking glass'? the great thing about both that and 'alice in wonderland' is that it speaks so well to the experience of the podsters and the 'i know an alien club members'. they are all in a sense placed in the role of alice... and they find themselves in a world where nothing is what it seems.

in addition to this, it's a world populated by beings who change roles as easily as some beings have been known to change shapes. (and function just as logically as nasedo used to?) also, like alice the roswell characters are in the position of having surprising and odd things requested/demanded of them.

are alice's journeys in these books a totally new and original hero's journey? any other examples come to mind of hero's journeys where the environment refuses to respond or function as expected...or as the natural laws of the universe might lead one to expect?

jenlev

ok, i just can't resist... did somebody mention 'through the looking glass'?

The time has come, the Walrus said,
To talk of many things,
Of Shoes, and Ships, and Sealing Wax,
Of Granoliths and Kings.

Hi. Another Liz mythologist who has found another thread to follow. One of my favorite books is LOTR. I have had a few thoughts compring characters, and here is one I would like to share.

I liken Tess to good ol' Smeagol, aka Gollum. NOT for any reasons you all might be thinking about.

I do not think Tess is working for Nikolas, Khivar or any of the skins. She knows where the Granolith is, and could have told them. I believe that she is working for someone who is potentially allied to Zan's family (Larek?). Her sole task is to stay close to Max (as his bride!) and make sure that he does not hand over the Granolith, killing him if necessary. Notice how jumpy she gets when the Granolith comes up. This behaviour is sort of like Gollum's subserviance to Frodo as they head for Mordor, planning all the while to make sure that HE does not get it, oh no my preciouse!

I just hope Max does not lose an appendage in the same way.

Now that she knows Liz won't let him give it up, this allows her to follow her own desires for once.

WR

Hey everyone -- I basically just have one observation -- it is a funny (not so coincidental) thing!
Anyone notice --

MAX
ZAN

If you look at these two names you notice that the M of Max crosses over to the N in ZAN (these two letters happen to be next to each other in the alphabet) and the X of max corresponds to the z in ZAN! I wonder if this is more than a coincidence!

And perhaps The Granolyth is a representation of the chessboard, somehow?

Okay here goes - this first screencap is from the Sexual Healing. It is not Liz looking in a mirror - but notice the sun mirror on the wall with the "V" reflected in it. This is a MIRROR - it doesnt always have a "V" in it :-) One of my "pet" theories is that the sun is a symbol of Max (he also has a similar sun hanging in his house). I just love this picture - with it's "V" and it's sun mirror - so I HAD to post it. :-)

And now - for Liz's hero journey
1)Call to Adventure
Liz in Pilot - loking into a mirror after her healing.

2)Into the Labrynith
Sexual healing

3) Belly of The Beast
Max to the Max

4) Sacrifice
End of the World


5)Return/Rebirth
Max In The City

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

wr: thank you so much for your walrus recantation! so...what about jabberwocky?

starbox: thank you for the mirror images (no pun intended). you brought to mind the image of max seeing his face in the reflective metal of the emissary's metal notebook in 'max in the city' during the testing/evaluation scene.(interesting how the music/lyrics echoed that image by repeating "this isn't me"?) and max as seen through the side mirror on the jeep when confronted by fisher/pierce as the podsters are racing off to find liz in 'max to the max'.

the images that the podsters and the members of the 'i know an alien club' see in the mirror are constantly changing (existentially speaking at the least) like alice (in wonderland) who says: " i knew who i was this morning, but i must have been changed many times since then."

so, how does the existentially based issue of sense of self intertwine with the hero's journey? i'm leaning towards the opinion that even when someone isn't on a dramatic hero's journey; the existenial question related to 'selfhood' represents an internal hero's journey that never ends? what do you folks think?

jenlev

[B]Liz.[B]
Like Max, Liz can be compared with a combination of two characters.
Firstly, Liz has a touch of Gandalf in her. As mentor, protector, and friend to Aragon, Gandalf was very influential in his life. So Liz is to Max. Helping him at almost every turn, she has been very influential in his stepping out from that tree. Gandalf also kept his eye on all the other members of the fellowship, as well as the free peoples he had dealings with. Witness Liz’s concern with her friend’s welfare. As Gandalf came up with plans to protect the fellowship, and evade the Nine Riders, so Liz constantly comes up with plans to thwart the FBI, or the Skins.
Secondly, there is Arwen Evenstar. Arwen was said to be so beautiful, that the likeness of Luthien Tinuveil had returned to earth. Could this be an omen of why Max recognised Liz from the first time he saw her, that she is the likeness (or re-incarnation) of someone from Max’s past? By falling in love with Aragorn, Arwen had made her choice, sharing the Doom of Luthien (losing her immortality, an aspect of her Elvishness). Liz fell in love with Max, made her choice (her words to FMax in TEOTW about never being another), and has accepted her doom (the gaining of powers, her leaving normal).

WR

Speaking of Chess again, I think the granolith is the castle; it's the only piece that is not at least part human. But the fact that Max has been bailed out by the powers of the women in his life (Tess, Is, and Liz) is what really reminds me of the game.

Sorry, I am sure that makes no sense.

lorrilei1960: if the granolith is similar to excalibur in the power and legitimacy it invokes; perhaps like the sword, the granolith cannot be operated by 'just anyone'.

or perhaps it's 'basic' functions can be accessed by anyone; but the more elaborate aspects of the granolith cannot be utilized unless one is a podster carrying the specific 'alien essense'. this reminds me of the issue of how no one in britain could pull the sword from the stone unless they were of a certain lineage. (t.h. white's version of this is wonderfully written)

also: perhaps recreating the podsters on earth was about having 'keys' that could operate the granolith (handy for the next confrontation). and hiding the granolith on earth effectively took it out of play during the intense years of crisis on the alien planets. it's a pretty common theme in literature and mythology: take the powerful treasure out of the conflict in order to prevent a certain doom. ('discretion being the better part of valor' they live to fight another day?)

jenlev

ps. qfanny: if the tarot cards represent archetypal roles then it would make sense that all the characters are acting out the tarot whether they are conscious of it or not? it certainly would be interesting to see what a tarot reading of the characters showed.

jenlev

If you were into the Tarot, can you tell us how one does a reading? How would you do it for a fictional character?

Oh, and bump!

shapeshifter: thank you, and the feeling is mutual!

regarding the tarot: i remember that cut scene reggie; and it seems to fit with 'future max's' comment about not knowing what would happen due to the changes that had been made. and it also fits with the repeated message from the writers of the show: destiny is something that we can influence--- it can be changed.

also, i'm thinking that if a character in a story represents the manesfestation of an archetypal role, then it would be possible to do a reading with the tarot cards that also represent archetypal roles and life stages/tasks? although i don't know enough about tarot reading to know if someone who reads the cards would feel this way.

jenlev

I dont know - I used to do Tarot and have had a spookily accurate reading done - and it is not like the "fortunes" that got read in EOTW - they seemed more like what a psychic might say rather than being card based readings.
Does that make any sense????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I see four jouneys in the MITC episode.

1) Max braves the "evil" city to face his fears. Is he a king? Is he worthy to be a king? He faces his worst nightmares in the belly of the beast (the subway) in the form of evil, scheming Lonnie/Isobel and violence run amok Rath/Michael.

2) Liz makes a "spiritual" journey to NYC to rescue her love. She must acknowledge that her experience of Max has "changed" her and reach out to save him.

3) Brody takes an unconscious journey to NYC. He is forced to "fast" and the clarity of the fast causes him to realize that he is in love with Maria. I foresee that Brody will confront Larek, the possessor of his body at some point. (In order to save Maria?)

4) Tess also journeys to NYC. She discovers that Max has "compassion" for her. He will defend her as she must follow him. I think Tess also discovered something about her essential nature that hasn't been revealed. She is in denial and that is why she can't remember. (genocide/capacity to kill?) She acknowledges that Roswell is "home." There has been speculation on other threads that Tess has been taken over by Lonnie or has turned traitor. I think just the opposite. I believe that her acknowledgement of Roswell as home means she won't leave Roswell or Max, and that the future feared by FutureMax won't come to pass (i.e. that Tess won't be there to face the Evil Aliens when they arrive.)

Journeys endings are important, too. Max finds that he has the capacity to forgive Isobel and Liz. Liz finds that she has changed into something new, and that change may bring Max back to her in a different way.

Anyway, that is my take on the journeys.

...She acknowledges that Roswell is "home." There has been speculation on other threads that Tess has been taken over by Lonnie or has turned traitor. I think just the opposite. I believe that her acknowledgement of Roswell as home means she won't leave Roswell or Max, and that the future feared by FutureMax won't come to pass (i.e. that Tess won't be there to face the Evil Aliens when they arrive.)...Jamethiel, I'm glad I'm not the only Dreamer-type who also interprets Tess's "I'm ready to go home to Roswell" in this way. But I still fear that when she realizes it's not over between Liz & Max that she might do some self-genociding. Aren't there some fairy tale characters like that? Rumplestilskin? Oooo...: Rumplestilskin. Actually, Niko reminds me of the dimunitive, bad-tempered, coniving fellow. Whereas Tess is more reminiscent of Dorothy with "no place like home," only Tess still seems a little heartless in a tin woodsman way.

Max, Tess, Isabel, Michael
Zan, Ava, Lonnie, Rath
Proto Zan, proto Ava, Vilandra, Proto Max
and lastly, the humans
Kyle, Liz, Maria and Alex

Now, not knowing a lot about Tarot, who wants to match up each set with each suit?? This could be really interesting for those here that actually used them. (Remember, this is all in *fun*, it's not meant to be taken seriously.)

Max, Tess, Isabel, Michael
Zan, Ava, Lonnie, Rath
Proto Zan, proto Ava, Vilandra, Proto Max
and lastly, the humans
Kyle, Liz, Maria and Alex
[/B]

QFanny, I'd divide them differently.

Hearts - Liz, Proto-Ava,Isabel, Ava
Cups - Alex (he read the tea leaves); Michael, Proto-Rath, and Rath (cups being someone prone to excess),perhaps Maria?

Wands - Tess (she stood in front of a wand/rod in Meet the Dupes) If she is the priestess for the Granolith...then this makes sense. I'd also put Lonnie in this category as one who like to manipulate power rather than hearts.

Staff-Max. He's the King in the spiritual and temporal sense. We don't know enough about Zan to fit him into a category.

Though I'm curious as to why you are focused on the the Tarot. Why not palmreading? It appeared that the palmreading of Maria's fortune was the most accurate in EOTW.

Jamethiel

I shall believe.

Ah, yes. That would be verrry interesting, but wasn't really my point. If handprints, silver or otherwise are an important icon for this show, wouldn't it be interesting to find out whether palmistry has any rational basis. Strike that thought, rational? This show? What was I thinking?

Michael refers to Max as Dr. Doolittle because of his healing powers. Does anyone remember the story well enough to draw analogies?

And on Romeo & Juliet representations: There's already the balcony and Liz's reference in EOTW, so is there a fued between Earthlings and Twilonese that is longstanding?

And on Romeo & Juliet representations: There's already the balcony and Liz's reference in EOTW, so is there a fued between Earthlings and Twilonese that is longstanding?

On the Tarot:
Here is a brief explanation of the four suits:

1) Rod = fire, point of departure for activity, sceptre of male domination - the father.

2) Cup = water, the spirit linking to the creator, female receptivity, the mother.

3) Sword = air, the spirit, marriage of male and female principles, the "cutting" of the intellect.

4) Shekel = earth, the will which supports and concentrates spiritual activity.

Here is an example of how they play out:
In the first card of the major arcana you see the JUGGLER - he grasps a rod to ensure his CONTROL over the earth (shekel) and himself - on a table stands a cup and a sword (dagger) which represent TWO paths - through heart or through spirit - which the individual must take in quest of initiation.

I would say that rather than the cards representing chracters - they represent paths (or "lives") - fitting in with the "Run Lola Run" theme.

In the first suit you see the "male" principle of domination/force, in the second you see the passive but creative "feminine" principle, the third represents a "marriage" of both former principles and illuminated by the intellect, the fourth a path gided by the will rather than the intellect.

The Tarot an Tarot readings best symbolize a journey in my opinion. Rather than "tell the future" in a psychic way they illuminate the journey. For example - the fact that Maria was involved with someone "volatile" or that Liz's love was a "leader" would be things you might glean from a tarot reading - but the choices that an individual makes are not "set" in the reading - only a sort of rough "map" of the jouney ahead and the alternate paths that will be presented.

About Romeo and Juliet - this is my "pet" work of literature (as an English major/and then teacher - this was the one work that I put the most energy into). :-) :-)

An interesting thing about Romeo and Juliet - in it Juliet is a MUCH stronger character in Romeo (in fact - I sometimes wonder WHAT she saw in him....he must have been a GREAT kisser :-)
She is the one who takes the initiative, who is brave and focused, she makes all of the hard decisions and has moral and personal integrity.
Romeo is emotionally "volatile", ruled by his feelings which change from scene to scene.
It is his impulsivity that causes all the tragedy in Romeo and Juliet. He THINKS he is doing the right thing - but in reality - he is often just REACTING.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

starbox: good point about romeo and juliet...although i don't think either of those characters were a poster person for overall mental health? and thank you for your comments about the tarot. i agree with you regarding their reflection of the journey of life stages and tasks which are also represented in the hero's journey.

sorry for the tangent, (and yikes, i can't recall if this has been brought up before, so if it has, i apologize) but today i was thinking about (homer's) odyssey and iliad.

the journey of odysseus seems to reflect the hero's journey for the podsters, especially max. like max, odysseus was on a quest for home (hearth) and for his wife(love). he was seeking a sense of place that was his own- after participating in a battle far from his home.

the podsters are also on a quest for a sense of belonging, community, and love. along the way they (like odysseus) meet a wide variety of fantastic and bizarre creatures with questionable ethical standards, and amazing powers. ultimately odysseus and the podsters find themselves facing many of their challenges alone.

this is from robert fitzgerald's translation of the odyssey: "he saw the townlands and learned the minds of many distant men, and weathered many bitter nights and days in his deep heart at sea, while he fought only to save his life, to bring his shipmates home."

jenlev

ps. and here's a total tangent; thinking of homer's stories reminds me of a wish to be able to see all the ancient manuscripts that were stored in the libary at alexandria--- if only it hadn't burned!

shapeshifter: thank you!

and, that's great about the 'i ching'. given the fact that one throws the 'i ching' coins and then adds up the numbers that the showing sides represent (at least in the version i have)...perhaps the podsters should toss the orbs on the pod cave floor and see what happens!

seriously, perhaps like the 'i ching' what one ponders or questions when handling the orbs has something to do with the information they display? (i don't know a lot about the 'i ching' though)

anyway, i've read that the i ching has been known as the 'book of changes' which seems to describe the 'flux, motion, and change' that the roswell characters have experienced so far? the significance of the focus on the journey rather then a "goal" becomes something of a morality lesson for the podsters and the members of the "i know an alien club". perhaps it will be their capacity to focus on the journey rather then over-investing in the 'goal' that will bring them victory?

jenlev

... today i was thinking about (homer's) odyssey and iliad.

the journey of odysseus seems to reflect the hero's journey for the podsters, especially max. like max, odysseus was on a quest for home (hearth) and for his wife(love). he was seeking a sense of place that was his own- after participating in a battle far from his home.

the podsters are also on a quest for a sense of belonging, community, and love. along the way they (like odysseus) meet a wide variety of fantastic and bizarre creatures with questionable ethical standards, and amazing powers. ultimately odysseus and the podsters find themselves facing many of their challenges alone.

this is from robert fitzgerald's translation of the odyssey: "he saw the townlands and learned the minds of many distant men, and weathered many bitter nights and days in his deep heart at sea, while he fought only to save his life, to bring his shipmates home."

jenlev

ps. and here's a total tangent; thinking of homer's stories reminds me of a wish to be able to see all the ancient manuscripts that were stored in the libary at alexandria--- if only it hadn't burned!

Hi jenlev; yep, I finally got on, and you know how much I've been itching to throw in a few cents on this! And here's my chance ... heh heh

Now, it has been a while, but I did manage to find a few notes on Homer that seemed relevant (sourcing is uncertain, however).

On the Iliad:
"At times it seems that men have no real freedom. The gods intercede repeatedly, altering events as they please. But Homer was no determinist, and there is a place in the Iliad for human agency. At key points, Homer makes it clear that mortals make important choices, and a few times mortals nearly overturn the dictates of fate itself. Zeus's will determines much of fate, but even he is sometimes subject to a higher necessity that is never personalized in the Iliad."

and thinking of the way the things we do live on after us (especially if we're recreated alien royalty):

"... the pursuit of glory is a consuming occupation for Homeric heroes. A Homeric hero wins glory by performing great deeds, the memory of which will outlive him. There is no comforting afterlife in Homer. Shades go down to the gloomy world of Hades. Emphasis is on the deeds of this life for the sake of this life, and a hero must win glory that will be remembered always by the living even after he is gone."

On Odysseus:
I totally agree. That's a great comparison -- I mean, honestly, I see a lot of Homeric characters in Max, but this aspect has to be my favourite.

By the way, does this interpretation of Patroclus remind you of Michael getting sick in The Balance, and Max (as Achilles, here ... to be honest, it was was the pride thing that made me think of it; that darling boy really can get his righteous indignation going, can't he?) "reclaiming" his alien side after? In a sense, you could argue that Hector is a Hank or flawed representative of humanity, who drove Michael out to find and "save" his heritage and compatriots when he saw Max hesitating, thus bringing (almost) certain death upon himself? And I sort of saw Philip Evans as Peleus figure, the one who helped Michael become his own man (which is one definition of a father figure).

"Patroclus is Achilles henchman, reared in the house of Peleus, Achilles' father. As a child, he killed a man in anger, and in his exile he was taken in by Peleus. Achilles and Patroclus have been inseparable since boyhood. Patroclus is compassionate as well as fierce; when Achilles will not fight, it is Patroclus who attempts to save his comrades from certain death. He is killed by Hector, and his death brings Achilles back to battle."

Here's a strange thought: do you see the Granilyth as the "Helen" of the podsters' own "Trojan War"? And could the podsters' being hidden in (human) plain sight be analogous to the Trojan Bunny? I mean, Horse? (Sorry, too much Monty Python during the formative years.)

Whew!

Btw, loving the Tarot discussion ... and shapeshifter, nice point about the mommogram.

behrall: i'm enjoying your post on homer very much, thank you for refreshing my memory and for the further details!

perhaps odysseus moves beyond the traditional goal of glory as a way to find immortality. by the time he finally returns to home and family he seems to be less invested in the goal of glory, and more focused on maintaining a place and relationships? perhaps this is wishful thinking on my part?

anyway, it strikes me that max and isabel start out mistrustful of the concept of 'glory' and destiny, whereas michael is initally somewhat dependent on it for a sense of self worth? (which may equal immortality?)

as for monty python...i do believe there is a monty python quote for every season! and there is no such thing as too much monty python either.

putting the podsters in roswell certainly was intended as a way to sneak them into the area right under everyone's noses, just like the trojan bunny, er horse (see that's catching!) and given the fact that roswell was searched so thoroughly at the outset; the shapeshifters might have felt that the other aliens and humans might not look so closely at the area again?

as for the granolith taking on the role of helen... max, er, the granolith could be seen as troy's most sought after treasure. although i wonder if the aliens would really know what to do with the granolith if they actually got hold of it. i get the sense they may actually be in something of a custodial role with the granolith? although the usurper to the throne might want to change that?

jenlev

I know this is a sort of old thought, and don't know what anyone else has since done with it, but my initial instinct is that Max is Frodo -- he's suddenly inherited something both powerful and dangerous, and that he never expected to have to deal with. A ring for Frodo, a planet at war for Max.

Liz is Sam -- willing to brave anything she has to to help Max succeed. When his success requires her there, she's there, and when his success requires her to be somewhere else, she goes.

I'm also toying with the whole "mentor" thing. I think that Max's mentor shouldn't be an alien at all. I think it should be Jim Valenti. In the first season, Jim looked like a villain, because he was trying to protect the people he was sworn to protect from a perceived threat -- the aliens among them. But once he learned that the aliens were the people he was sworn to protect, he took their side, and has remained there ever since.

That's what Max is going to have to learn -- how to tell the real threats from the false ones and how to protect his people from those threats.

Liz is Sam -- willing to brave anything she has to to help Max succeed. When his success requires her there, she's there, and when his success requires her to be somewhere else, she goes.

I'm also toying with the whole "mentor" thing. I think that Max's mentor shouldn't be an alien at all. I think it should be Jim Valenti. In the first season, Jim looked like a villain, because he was trying to protect the people he was sworn to protect from a perceived threat -- the aliens among them. But once he learned that the aliens [b]were the people he was sworn to protect, he took their side, and has remained there ever since.

That's what Max is going to have to learn -- how to tell the real threats from the false ones and how to protect his people from those threats.[/B]I haven't read Tolkien in a long time and never got past the Hobbit and Book 1 of the Triology because I couldn't keep the names straight, but I am thinking Liz is the mentor, and Sam sure sounds like Tess--to a point.

My thoughts on Frodo/Bilbo/whatever are similar to what I just posted on the Liz thread: quote:Re the Tess/Bride discussion: It again gives me images of the King in Chess and the Queen: Tess is the Queen who uses her power to protect the King. The granolith, though, could be the King or the Castle. If Max is the King of this Roswellian game of Chess, then the game is a playing out of politics, but Liz is the hand that moves the King and those around him. Hasn't Liz already 'caused' Tess to use her powers to aid the King?

PepperjackCandy--totally agree re Max as Frodo. I've long felt that the plight of the Four Royal Fab Pods (just varying the terminology) is very like that of the four hobbits after they've left Tom Bombadil's and have not yet hooked up with Aragorn--"alone, without guidance, bearing a great burden." The memory loss thing is really worrisome to the maternal side of me--the poor babies! Max really did comport himself well at the Summit, considering, as Larek pointed out, he didn't remember any of this. Considering, too, that Larek and presumably the others knew full well that he didn't remember any of it. How better to manipulate someone than when they're helpless regarding the facts? And how crappy to be told "You made a lot of enemies today" by abductee Judy/Kathana (still LOL at those actors they picked for the summitteers), when you don't have a clue what the hell's going on! Emotional abuse, big time.

I have another Tolkien analogy that I put over on the MitC #2 thread, not realizing there was a whole lotta Tolkien talkin' goin' on on this one. Maybe later this evening I'll steal another moment.

Hi, shapeshifter! I read LotR the first time in three (3 count 'em) days, and yeah, the names were so confusing I had to turn right around and read it again. That was during summer vacation in high school, when I had time for such feats. So long ago it makes me dizzy and nauseated to think about it.

BTW, Kzinti_Killer pointed out that Max is also like Aragorn, in that "the hands of the king are the hands of a healer."

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo, everyone!

We went over the Iliad conection over on "Politics of". It was suggested that Villandra was Helen, that K' var was Paris, Michael her rightful husband, and that the war was over who got to be Villandra's husband.
Helen was the most beautiful woman in the Greek world; every prince wanted her. They agreed that whoever she chose, the others would guard him against a kidnap attempt. She chose one. Paris, IIRC, kidnapped Helen, and took her to Troy. The others mounted a rescue expedition to Troy, which wound up as a siege of the place.

Let's suppose, for a story, that "Helen" was the sister of a king, and that "Paris" had decided to depose that king in order to legitimize his posession of Helen. Sound like any story we've heard before?

shapeshifter: that's interesting about snow white. it reminds me of sleeping beauty et. al.- it makes me wonder about the theme of the sleeping hero vs. the one that journeys? although this may be too 'either/or' of a description? if sleeping is in itself another type of journey (dreaming) is an apparently sleeping hero really passive after all?

jenlev

a female type of trinity in the very traditional femal roles

First, re Sleeping Beauty, if you go back to the original story (or thereabouts), you find a theme that you may recognize as a bone of "to Destiny or not to Destiny" contention: that of reproduction, of carrying on the family line. This is extremely disturbing in a royal family in which national (or galactic?) peace and the royal lineage is insured by the birth of progeny -- hence the birth certificate, ie Max's glowy i.d. badge -- and presumably, an issue of great concern should he ever procreate in human form.

Following this line of thought, there is Nasedo and presumably his NY counterpart as Godparents -- non-human guardians (whether fairies is unknown ) sent to watch over and shape(change! ha ha) their wards, especially (traditionally speaking) regarding spiritual and ethical obligations.

Hmmm.

And there's the question -- who is the SB here? Tess, who existed in oblivion before awakening M/Mi/I's alien sides? Our podsters, who basically bided their time until awoken to their duties? Liz, who has been brought back from death (=long sleep) to find herself in a new world and with new purpose?

Thought: Venus was one of the goddesses who attended SB's birth, whose gift was to promise eventual rescue/awakening, after Themis cursed the child to someday fall (under, that is), after a serious wounding by a sharp, metal phallic symbol (aka a spindle or bullet?). The child is doomed to die if not rescued by "special" means.

Age 16: mythologically, often considered a significant transitional age into adulthood.

The idea of gifts as intangible and mysterious gifts of the "otherworld".

Change of power: while SB was under, royal power shifted to another family, a situation to be remedied with her return/ascension to royal status upon post-waking union with a prince not of her time or world (so to speak).

Courting: Perrault's version of the fairy tale emphasizes the importance of "growing into" love, stressing the pains of convenience or arranged marriages (okay, I threw that one in there for me. Sue me.)

Final thought: this makes me think of "journey song #20: love is a dreaming flame", a poem by (I think) e.e. cummings:

an intersection
of brain and nerve and muscles
and blood warm-tinged, a happening
of wetness. I am this old
fire, this notsonew
wanting.
but, I add—
I'm made over again,
shed skin and old thoughts
and old tastes and we are kissing—
I am ohsoveryfree

and o

alive
in this darkwarm bed, this
everspinning nest, the place

where later we will doze
cats leaning on us
like pillows.

Gives me shivers, it does.

'Kay, I'm outie.

"The traditional and Kabbalistic meaning of the Star of David is 'as above, so below'....or the integration of body, mind, spirit. The triangle pointing upward represents spirit and the triangle pointing downward represents the physical...so the interlinking of the two represents the merger..This would lead one to believe that when the Star of David presents as a configuration in the sky, that it would indicate a most auspicious time for the merger of body, mind, and spirit. A time when we can 'bring down the heavens' into consciousness of our physical nature. "

"The configuration of the stars on Jan 23" -- maybe Liz and Max were too late getting to the desert on Feb 2, LOL -- "shows the star of David and a Quintile (72 degrees) between Saturn and Venus."

"... a symbol of the lost archetype of The Sacred Marriage, representing the balance of male and female among others and essential for our personal and planetary healing"

Okay, to be honest, I see a lot in here to argue for the legitimacy of a Max/Tess union. My point here, however, was to ruminate over the possible significance of Liz's star. So ... hey, whatever.

(btw, have to say these aren't my words but excerpts from an email debate; if I had to, I could track down the sourcing)

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
another biblical type: At different times, Liz as:
1)Lillith in the eyes of Tess
2)Eve in SH
3)Mary in her post FM-visitation role

a female type of trinity in the very traditional femal roles

Hey shapeshifter -- I agree. It seems self-evident ... now that you've pointed it out. I am curious, however, how exactly you figured out #3? It feels right, but I'm having trouble either quantifying or qualifying this depiction. A little insight or even clarification would SO be appreciated ...

well behrall, thank you for the details and information in your post! if all the characters are on their own hero's journey; then all the characters would embody some aspect or degree of 'sleeping-beauty-ism'?

although one may be more beautiful or heroic then the other, each have a task and journey to process and metabolize? and whatever their journey, each hero is awakened to the task and purpose of their journey with some degree of reluctance and ambivalence.

i'd mistrust any hero who didn't have qualms about the idea and role of destiny, fate, power, and inheritances of any type. and any hero who becomes aware of the journey ahead could be expected to struggle with the transition from childhood to maturity at any age (but especially 16 as you mentioned).

so i think that all the characters are heros and sleeping beauties; all receive some type of mentoring and gifts of 'power'.

jenlev

ps. very good shapechanging joke!

Elen sila lumenn omentielvo

B]

"A star shines on the hour of our meeting"

*takes a bow, accepts flowers and applause with great humility*

I had speculated some months ago that it was something being grasped by two hands or tenacles, and meant "Hold onto this, it's important, don't loose it", or some such. If the triangle in the center is The Granolyth, then perhaps it is the symbol for the Keepers, or Holders of The Granolyth.

If so, then perhaps the double spiral symbol (see Shapeshifter's or Qfanny's avatar) means Guardian(s) of the Granolyth.

So does Max as Aragorn, and remember, as Kzinti_Killer and others have pointed out, "The hands of the king are the hands of a healer."

I think the whole point about the Aragorn/Arwen relationship was that it was a reliving of the Beren/Luthien romance, which led to the Elvish people losing Luthien, her whom they most prized. Are we in for losing the lovely and exquisite Liz when she returns "home" with Max?

I'm going to go ahead and post this because my computer is doing naughty little things like reboot on me this morning.

Anyway, I was replying to Jenalyn's excellent Tolkien analogy. Here's another thought I had and posted over on the #2 SciFi of MitC thread, which K_K had begun with a mention of Nicholas.

Do you remember in Silmarillion all the coverage of the Ainur, the angelic beings who assisted the "One" in creating the world? The were incorporeal beings, but when Middle-earth came to be they were fascinated by it to the point of taking on incarnate forms and crossing the sea to live, play, and work in M-e and at times "frolic" with the natives. This was the first example of beings of different type getting together--I think it was an Ainur and an Elf. Can't remember the names. Then came Beren and Luthien (who was descended of the first angel/elf union), then later Aragorn and Arwen. These great loves among differing kinds of beings, mortal and immortal, is a pervading theme of Tolkien's work. If you believe that Max and/or his people have "been here before," and I have read so many convincing arguments to that effect that I totally buy it, then the Grandma Claudia storyline may hold delightful future riches for us all.

Back to the Ainur, or angelic beings. That great weaselly chickens**t Kivar makes me think of Morgoth, the Lucifer of Tolkien's cosmology, the greatest of the angels until he rebelled (in Roswell, against the royal family) and frelled the original grand design. Nicholas would be his lieutenant Sauron, of a lesser angelic order but the next best thing to Morgoth after Morgoth was "dispersed" at the end of the First Age. Sauron specialized in hanging around in Middle-earth causing all sorts of petty mischief like destroying civilizations, etc. His incarnate bodies kept getting fried, though, until there was not much left but the Black Hand and the Red Eye. So far Nicholas has been lucky.

Quoting my other post, "Moving away from the Tolkien analogy a bit, the Skins would be the legions of angels who sided with Lucifer, i.e. Kivar--beings of pure energy or spirit in their natural form, forced to adapt spacesuit/husks to join the battle on earth. Of course, why would pure energy be bothered by the composition of Earth's atmosphere? Nevertheless, this little analogy works for me.

"Plus, if Michael=Michael the warrior Archangel, then the special interest these beings had in him makes a lot of sense. In Lucifer's rebellion Michael remained loyal--a quality some of the skins seemed to admire to the point of building Michael shrines (hmmm...I wonder if Courtney's interest was on a spiritual plane until she got a body, and then she became quite horny). Nicholas, on the other hand, seemed to hold Michael's loyalty in contempt."

So Michael may be of a different order than the other 3, which may explain Brody's gizmo going off in his presence. And if the Roswell creators are thinking of Tolkien, then we can look forward to further explorations of the real implications of Max and Liz's love. And Nicholas is very, very bad and dangerous. I love it--the biggest bada$$ on (Middle) earth in the form of a bratty teenybopper!

I really appreciate this thread and the other speculative threads--you've all given me hours of thinking and enjoyment.

Hoping you're having a happy holiday season--
Fan

This next bit should probably be on the Politics thread, but I'm here now and need to go look for socks for my father's Christmas birthday present: Given Hardings declaration that all the powers are totally human but more highly evolved, and taking that to mean that the aliens are just more highly evolved humans who have adapted to different planets' ecosystems, the Liz/Tess debate takes on the aura of a class struggle; Liz is seen by Nasedo as from the wrong side of the tracks, ergo: Snow White.

quote:Originally posted by ValentiFan:
One more thought--"elen sila lumenn omentielvo" -- A star shines on the hour of our meeting--could also be loosely translated as "A supernova bursts forth upon the hour of our summit."Love it, ValentiFan! Also, of course (dreamer voice speaking), the inner visions of stars during BD and SH eps.

And BehrAll, loved the line about 'shed skins!'

and <Bump> from page five!?!

ok, so this is something of a tangent... but after watching the christmas episode i was thinking about the archetype of the "wounded healer". does anyone have access to information on this? i was thinking that as all archetypes play a role in a person (or podster's) life; that in addition to the hero's journey the character of max is struggling to allign in a generative way to the archetype of the healer (and/or wounded healer).

this episode showed max beginning to conciously address his own trauma
experience as reflected in another's (and in how he responded to that other person's situation).

i was especially struck by the issue of how his own trauma (white room etc.) has effected his capacity to take healthy risks and how he understands the hero's journey based on this. how does a hero who happens to be a healer integrate the different facets of these roles?

some odds and ends: if one can believe in hybrid aliens, why not believe that max can see ghosts? does the ghost then become the hero's mentor/guide? and, there is research regarding the impact of trauma on the way a human's brain functions. i wonder how the trauma that max has experienced may have effected his brain? (i'm thinking of neurotransmitters, synapses etc.)

how do we integrate the scientific knowledge that our culture is developing with the mythology and traditions that has been handed down to us for thousands of years? is max's capacity to see a ghost driven by his alien and or human side? or is it a reflection of the impact of the trauma he's experienced on the brain? (or is it all of the above?)

i understand that there is a certain pattern or tradition of healers/shamans having near death experiences that alter them and increase their ability to access the extraordinary. does anyone have further information about this?

jenlev

quote:perhaps the double spiral symbol (see Shapeshifter's or Qfanny's avatar) means Guardian(s) of the Granolyth.

Hey Reggie -- just wanted to say this makes sense to me (although I still think it represents the whirlwind galaxy as well). A lot of people forget that symbolism is most effective when it's easy to understand, and this would be a very logical way or recreating the idea symbolically.

ValentiFan, Jenalyn -- thank you! Oh, I wish I could read LotR all over again for the first time, with all this insight ...

Thanks, shapeshifter -- that clears it up nicely. And yeah, that line was what drew my attention to that poem.

Btw, about Snow White ... in one version I read, she was a step-daughter, so the class thing could come into play, but irregardless, she was definitely perceived by the Queen to be a threat, an usurper, so I think it works.

jenlev! Okay, hold onto yer horses!

quote:... the archetype of the "wounded healer" ... i was thinking that as all archetypes play a role in a person (or podster's) life; that in addition to the hero's journey the character of max is struggling to allign in a generative way to the archetype of the healer (and/or wounded healer).

Okay, everything I know about Jung I pretty much learned on R&I -- -- but I seem to recall the paradigm of the the wounded healer, basically a tenet that to heal, truly heal, requires two. One who needs to be healed, one who is capable of drawing the pain/injury into themselves and (for lack of a better word) exorcise it. The idea being, I suppose, that you cannot heal someone else until you understand it, feel it, live it.

If Max is going to be an effective healer, then maybe this is why he needs to connect, to "know" the person he is healing. (Ooh! Just a thought, but this might explain the ghost thing. I mean, once his physical form was gone, the only way Max could heal him (or, balance things out, or whatever) would be to connect with him ... and so he does -- with his ghost. Huh. That's kind of cool, actually.)

Btw, I too would love to hear someone's take on Max's "journey" as it has been affected by the events of this episode! (Dang, I knew I should have paid more attention to Campbell when I had the chance.)

quote:some odds and ends: if one can believe in hybrid aliens, why not believe that max can see ghosts? does the ghost then become the hero's mentor/guide? and, there is research regarding the impact of trauma on the way a human's brain functions. i wonder how the trauma that max has experienced may have effected his brain? (i'm thinking of neurotransmitters, synapses etc.)

Have to say, I love the idea that Max's physiology has perhaps changed somehow by his trauma (there have been studies to show that brain patterns and pathways can be changed by not only physical trauma, but (for instance) repeated emotion-driven chemical surges, right? I'm sure I read that somewhere).

More to the point, maybe Max's uniqueness brought the ghost to him, either as a manifestation of a tortured conscience that was simply "more so" because he had that extra alien "oomph" to make it so, or by opening some kind of (cheesy sci-fi alert!) dimensional doorway or something, that allowed the two to make contact. Whatever; it's fun to consider.[/quote]

Well, I wish I could respond to some of the other questions -- these are great. But I'm drawing a blank.

Anyone else?

This would confirm that Max & Co., as described in Tess's book which has the (.) on the cover and their pictures inside, are the ones who are holding The Granolyth.

Or have I put 2 and 2 together to get 22?

Anyways, thanks for the heads-up on "cortisol, a breakdown product of adrenalin" ... you know, just a thought (And maybe I'm stretching all credulity here), but could this chemical rush be associative as well? Now, what the *heck* do I mean by that ...

Um, I'm thinking that as he was watching the cars heading towards the little girl, Max felt a rush of adrenaline et al and maybe this subconsciously (or on a cellular level) triggered memories of the White Room, which is why he was thinking of it and afraid to act, and then provoked whatever brain-chemistry-alteration that allowed him to see Ghost Dad?

(Which is a long and torturous way of saying, it's been proven that scent is a potent tool for memory recall. Maybe this hormonal imbalance acted as one too?)

Re Julian Jaynes ... that doesn't sound too wild. In fact, I think it sounds pretty logical. It would explain a lot of "visions" throughout history, that's for sure, especially when you look into the extreme conditions that usually either precipitate or accompany them. Is the book a good read?

Reggie -- I think you could take it even further. When you think about it, it makes sense that Tess was sent along as a keeper of the Granylith ('cause I'm still hoping against hope that she wasn't just sent along to play wifey). Politically-speaking, Max would be the nominal keeper, but it's not like he could just carry it around with him, nor could he spend all his time standing guard. So they send along a trusted proxy.

But is that what you're saying? Or are you speculating about why the Roswell podsters got it instead of the Dupes?

thanks valentifan for the details of the biochemical changes to the brain when impacted by stress and trauma. and thank you behrall for the ideas about how max's recall of the 'white room' experiences might have been triggered.

from what i understand post traumatic stress syndrome is reflected partially in the emotional and physical (those both hinging on each other?) reliving of certain experiences. and the effect of seeing potential or actual violence (see: 'ask not') has already been portrayed as a trigger for max's memories. of course there remains the quandry of which comes first, the emotions or the biochemical change in the brain? (or does the process happen simultaneously)

anyway, behrall, i agree with the idea that the nature of the person or podster might influence the access of a spirit/ghost. and this often seems to be the theme of the hero and healer story: an individual (or group) that is somehow different or unique and becomes connected with other entities because of this.

also: your comment about the healer being able to somehow internalize the injury and then exorcize it reminds me of that song "you've got to suffer if you want to sing the blues".

and the julian jaynes idea also seems to make sense by the way.

one thing that strikes me is how we have thousands of years of tradition about the hero going through trauma and stress to attain the goal... but perhaps only more recently have begun to question some of the experiences these poor folks go through? in the past the hero was more often portrayed as fearless and untouched by his/her experiences.

perhaps before the industrial revolution there was a different understanding of these things? certainly how one understands the trauma that max has undergone is shaped by the changes that our culture has been through in the last 100 years? might this mean that the archetype of the hero is also evolving? is the healer as described by behrall more of a hero than the traditional guts and glory character? (by our current reckoning?)

and...great idea about max healing the ghost through his interactions with him! a definate two way street there?

and behrall: not cheesy sci fi at all regarding the dimensional doorway...because after all the theme of a door between 'worlds' occurs throughout mythology. i'm thinking specifically of celtic stories about the 'veil' between the world of the fairies and the humans being extra thin at certain times of year; and for certain people.

jenlev

ps. hey behrall...unfortunately no horse to hold these days...have to wait for the weather to get better for that one...which may be just as well given the vareties of the weather in new england!

Man, this is good stuff! Tess's book and the Granilith--I think Reggie's got something, namely that book goes with that device. Although why she plucked it out of the wall of the Roswell Public Library and not the cave I couldn't say, unless she had not yet led Max & Co. to the pod chamber and anyway, what's the difference when you're using an interdimensional portal in the first place? The book coming out of the wall, Nasedo popping out of the wall in the chamber later--I'm dying to know more.

Agree that Tess has a tight connection with the granilith. She may indeed be its keeper, she may be (though I doubt this one)a granilith-originated projection, or she may be like the ship on the new show "Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda" which has as its interface a hologram of a brilliant and attractive young woman who is also able to appear in an incarnate body. She's herself, and she's the ship. In that sense Tess IS the granilith. As Tess is herself an ambivalent, somewhat mystifying character, this is intriguing as to the device's true nature and purpose.

Gotta agree, her Christmas with the Valentis was a hoot! And if I could just carve a turkey like that!

BehrAll, the Julian Jaynes book IS a very good read. It came out originally in about 1976 and is still in print and available on Amazon.com or at a library. He was a psych professor at Princeton with a vast knowledge of the anatomy of the brain. Like I said before, even if you don't ultimately buy his hypothesis he argues so eloquently that you're forced to consider it.

In 25 words or less, here it is: under certain conditions (high stress, schizophrenia, living before the first milennium BC or before European contact in the Americas) the analog "I", that is conscious self-awareness, departs, and the mind becomes organized differently. Stored experience and knowledge are coded in verbal form and communicated as an admonition or command that is perceived, i.e. heard or seen, as vividly as if some outside speaker had delivered it. This explains the gods talking to Achilles, the burning bush, the burial of dead relatives with all their worldly goods, visions like those of Joan of Arc and Saul, and the "voices" of schizophrenics. It sounds like Jaynes is reducing away all the wonderful mysticism in the world, but when you read it he is doing nothing of the sort. He just has a very different take on the religious impulse. Ghosts come under this category too.

Thanks for asking, BehrAll! Thanks too for starting this thread!

HI, JENLEV--We posted at the same instant. I'm just dittoing your point about post-traumatic stress syndrome. As I understand it, PTSD is the manifestation of cortisol toxicity. Extreme stress creates problems that may take years to be resolved. Sometimes you want to tell people to Just Get Over It but they can't, their brains have literally been poisoned, and while this can be alleviated and sometimes healed, it's a physical problem and can't just be improved by deciding to. Poor Max.....

Fan

valentifan: a quick ps. as when i'd posted i found your post. thanks for the further details on julian jaynes. it sound fascinating! and it's important to try and makes sense of how the brain works.

and very interesting valentifan, reggie and behrall about the issue of the granolith, the spiral symbol and tess's role. i imagine that the symbol is like the granolith a multipurpose item. (the granolith as the mondo multi-tasker ) anway, tess is certainly as much of a cipher as the granolith and a lot of the artifacts the podsters have stumbled upon.

and i love the pattern of hilarious dinner conversations that roswell has developed. the christmas dinner is really a classic.

jenlev

D'ya suppose it's stamped "Intel Inside"???

The conversation we are having about what caused the Ghost to appear is similar to conversations about the existence of the Ghost of King Hamlet.

rosfan-ny: wow! thank you, great thoughts about hamlet...and who gets to be rosencranz and guildenstern?

...'alas, poor nasedo i knew him well valenti'...

anyway, i'm hoping for a happier ending for the podsters and the members of the 'i know an alien club'...perhaps similar to 'a midsummer night's dream'? but who would play 'puck'?

jenlev

Perhaps Rosencranz and Guildenstern are Michael and Isabel; And Ophelia... perhaps Liz.

Having Fun,
Yehuda Katz
Big Apple Spring Break Bash Organizer

Love all the posts above about brain chemistry/behavioural effects. I'm thinking about "balance" as it is used on Roswell. Although this ep was a definite response on the part of the writers to posters many concerns about PTSD, it was Max's failure to heal that hurt his "balance," whereas the PTS was 'merely' the cause of his failure to heal. So, if Max had not healed Liz, he would have been un-"balance"d.

I agree that the ghost was likely a hallucination, but then Max is still hallucinating. In the books he had a similar disturbance from which Liz eventually freed him.

About the Healer Archetype: Surely Jesus is the most typical. So then, will Max sacrifice himself to provide a Way for others?

OT: I was cataloging a book yesterday: Neil Sheehan's A Bright Shining Lie : John Paul Vann and America in Vietnam. At the end of the book a man named "Doughty" is responsible for Vann's death. I don't have the book here and can't recall much, but it seemed like there was a connection to the roles of "Doty" in SO47 and "Doughty" in BSL.

I think the writers were trying to inject some mystery (aka spirituality) into the episode. So the ghost is representing that mystery.

It doesn't really fit in with anything alien related, so the writers are saying that it must be part of a larger spiritual existence that even Max can't deny.

That's why he showed up to church at the end.

A Roswell fanatic and friend,
Yehuda Katz

Rosfan--I like your ideas! My vote for Rosencrantz and Guildenstern might be Alex and Kyle, though. Or at least Alex. "Tell him his commandment is fulfilled, that Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are dead." Alas, poor Alex. We miss him.

I wish I could come to New York for the spring break bash, *sigh.*

I hope this addresses some of your questions. You raised two very important concepts.

THE MAIMED KING

The Fisher King, in grail mythology, is very mysterious and, indeed, the origins of the character are not quite known. Celtic pagan? Or a composite and/or archetypal figure that reflects the origins of the grail stories themselves (ie, Eastern, Arabic, Semitic, etc). The FK is wounded, usually in the thigh or groin, and cannot walk. The FK is usually portrayed as the
keeper of guardian of the Grail and lives in the grail castle which is surrounded by a wasteland. The land is barren/infertile, soverignity is lost. The king is associated with (symbolic of) the FERTILITY of the land
and the people.

The grail knights come to the castle and it is here that they are presented with the grail ‘hallows. Of course, in the Christianized grail, these hallows are associated with the crucified Christ. The ‘hallows’, in Arthurian tales, are associated with great power, a power that attributes to the possessor, ie, the power
of the throne. These include the CROWN (symbol of the kings power altho the throne is destroyed); the SPEAR/LANCE (ie, of Longinus?); SWORD of power of the ruler; the CAULDRON.

It is here, in the castle, that the questing knights first see the grail chalice (interestingly, the grail cup bearer may be the knight’s sister). The grail object/symbol take form from the many influences on the grail myths (cauldron, stone, platter, cup, vessel, etc). The grail can be considered a universal symbol of the ‘divine feminine’ or the womb (chalice, cup). In the Christianized grail, it is the cup that captured the spilled blood (ie, from the spear) and which Joseph of Arimathea brings to Britannia, via the south of France, accompanying Mary Magdalene. Some modern theorists believe that the grail = sant graal = holy blood carried in the womb of Mary Magdalene to the south of France (HOLY BLOOD/HOLY GRAIL). The VINE = ?bloodline.

The FK is thought to be symbolic of the crucified Christ. He is dealt the ‘dolorous blow’ by the lance that pierced the side of Christ. The grail knights, because of their youth or inexperience, fail to ask the
right (and OBVIOUS) questions which will heal the Fk and, therefore, heal the land, restore fertility and soverignity.

Another layer of interpretation of why the king was wounded is that the king (pride?
sin?), by not entering into the ‘right relationship’ with the ‘chosen’ female, caused himself to be dealth the dolorous blow which in turn led to the wasteland of the land, the failure of the prosperity of the people, the loss of health (spiritual and physical) . Once source states that the FK may be an archetype for humanity and/or the wounded Christ. The wound could represent original sin or

PSSIBLE ROSWELL ASSOCIATIONS

What Max, and perhaps we, may not fully realize is that his powers may have other uses. It has to be confusing to him. He must always ask himself the how, the why of his powers (and why me), and question the when of the use of powers, and the who (who do I heal), and justly, the what..

My interpretation of the QUESTION THAT HEALS is: who do I SERVE? Inherent in the messianic legacy are the principles of: Service. Democratic principles/Justice. Spiritual transformation and attainment (another way of stating this is the restoration of the worldly and the cosmic; the restoration of the divine feminine with the divine masculine; finding the right path uniting the spiritual and the worldly).

Much is made of Max and the podsters not asking the right questions at the right time or place. This may be sloppy and/or expedient writing (or the writers are sandbagging because they haven’t formulated
the WHO yet).

Another interpretation is that this is all intentional because the grail model is that the QUESTIONS are NOT asked and the questors must continue to wander: lost, fail, backtrack, redefine, etc, thus prolonging
the suffering. But is is not really failure. It is because of the quest that they grow, mature, and TRANSFORM (ie, spirirtually; maturity). It is because of the trials that they gain the knowledge to be able to ask the right questions at the right time and heal the king (= themselves, the land, the people, regain sovereignity). And hopefully, in service, the wisdom to wield the symbols of power and rule democratically.

It is expected that there will be mistakes, failures, false starts and wrong paths along the way. One of the great lessons is the wisdom to accept that one must enter in the ‘right relationship’ with evil because it can’t be destroyed. The questing knight must stuggle to not give in to evil. Whether one believes in Christ, or in the historical or mythology, the story demonstrates that Christ struggled and questioned all the time.

There is evidence that Max is weakened by healing, loses energy, or perhaps even takes in the pain and suffering and is then himself healed. His powers may be evolving, allowing him ever greater control and greater capacity to heal. I don’t believe Max is limited by age or disease or proximity to death (where is the line?) of the person being healed. Does the life force die just because the husk dies? Is it the life force he directs vs just molecular manipulation?).

Max probably doesn’t know and may never know the mysteries of the universe and/or the god-force that directs his powers or by which he was chosen to be an incarnate being of that force. It is not necessary that this be revealed to remain a compelling story. I think the limiting factor is Max himself, not the characteristics of the one being healed.

There may be a point (which may be variable), as he matures, beyond which he is taxed such that he is at risk of not reversing his own recovery, at risk of death, or at risk of developing the pathology he takes in, if indeed that is part of the mechanism. There must be some element of self preservation at work: Max saving Max from himself as well as the threatening ‘others’ out there. This may have been much stronger when he was younger, just as much as fear was, and just plain ignorance of risks and consequnces (ie, immaturity). He had an uninformed imagination but also, as well, a sense of justified caution about worldly realities.

At the time he attempted his powers with Claudia, he had not even tested the boundaries of his healing on any creatures since the pigeon (that we know of) but particularly a human. Excluding superficial stuff. That’s why I don’t think it is necessarily correct to compare GC vs children, this disease vs that, etc. GC wasn’t dead at the time she ?appeared to Liz if I recall. As far as the children, they may have been in hospice care and the lack of medical intervention may have reflected this rather than the intend to give the perception that they did not appear ‘ that sick’.

If he can heal, when does he stop? Once he starts is it ethical to stop Who is chosen?
Why should age be a criterion? Why not just keep him imprisoned (after all society can’t
let anything happen to him!!) so he can be a healing machine? Governments and agencies and individuals would fight over him. Clearly there may be other paths to healing, transfomation, and spirituality embodied in him as well forhis being.

WHO HEALS MAX?

As alluded to above, although it may not be intuitive, the messianic one can be both
knight and Fisher King. The healer seeks to gain the knowledge from the life and the
suffering without experiencing the wounds directly. Max has been dealt the dolorous
blows (1- usually the thigh or genitals symbolizing loss fertility or loss of power; or 3 blows = head, heart,genitals). Someone will have to heal Max. As he heals, he must be healed. Max is now, symbolically, both knight and maimed king.He must also follow the quest of the heart.

Curious, tell me what you think..do recall any references that Skins or any other aliens
give a hoot about Max healing?

This indirectly leads to the second issue...HOW does Max see? ( which is related to how he heals and his powers).
This will take more time than I have, but I can add after the holidays. In addition to addressing the genetic mysteries and the mystery of the bloodline(s) (please see SFs post on the SIGNS&SYMBOLS thread, page 8, on the genetic 'code') and the symbols of power (ie ??Granilith), I plan (time is limited) to include the theme of the limbic system in the kick-off for the next SIGNS & SYMBOLS introduction.

In brief, perhaps it is the hyper-stimulated limbic system/temporal lobes ( the theorized ‘substrates’ of the GOD MODULE) that may enable the capacity to connect with the divine, the spirits, the other-worldly, etc. While I believe that Max was ‘haunted’ by his own conscience, this does not necessarily negate the existence of the ‘spirit’. The capacity to experience or to gain entrance/become receptive to the other dimensions or to the spirit realm or to the divine may be associated with the complexity of the limbiic system and evolution of layers of neocortex. And a question is: why did the limbic system evolve? Extreme stressors, deprivation, fear, trauma and pain can all stimulate the limbic system just as do the 'mushrooms' and other potions, and ceremonial chanting, etc. That is all I will say for now except to point out that the GodMod and the LS/TL and the soul are now being studied scientifically (ie, the neurology and electrochemical basis of the process), not just in the metaphysical or paranormal camps.

Sorry this is so long.

SAFE and HAPPY HOLIDAYS ALL!!

~~~~~~Rosta~~~~~~ ~~~~~

Seriously, tho', I think you are right about how "the hero" has changed over time ... of course, the historian in me insists on pointing out that millenia ago, bards would probably focus on working the big picture into their (oral) news reports and epic sagas, whereas since the advent of the printing press and the Industrial Revolution (I've argued it to be more of an Evolution, btw, but that's neither here nor there), society has been able to take a more detailed look at societal concepts and values. Which have, paradoxically, changed as a result. (It's Schroedinger's cat all over again!)

Nonetheless, you make a good point, and I have to say it's got me wondering: how different would this story (ie the aliens living amongst us and training for war) be if the ship had crashed 1,000 years ago? 100 years ago? Would 8th or 18th century Max be a "wounded hero"? And if so, I wonder which tradition his development would follow. (I'm kind of leaning towards a Celtic/ mystical one myself, but I'm biased and irrational. )

ValentiFan: Thanks for the info; one of these days I'll definitely try to track that book down! More to the point, I'm finding your idea about Tess representing a kinship with the Granilyth rather than a guardian rather breathtaking. For instance, I'd never considered that it could have an organic component, but of course, does that really matter when you can manipulate molecular structure and have a great deal of energy to play with? (And of course, brain activity as we know it is predicated upon electrochemical interactivity, right? So maybe the Granylith is one big "brain" or A.I.; and after all, if it is crystal, than it is organic.) And that would explain its functional versatility ...

Oh to be a sci-fi writer ... sigh.

rosfan-ny: Hamlet, huh? Well, I think we've brought most of Shakespeare's better known plays into R&I at some point, so I should've known that this ep would bring out the ghosts ... Actually, now that I think of it, post-Surprise Isabel could've played a very convincing Lady Macbeth ... thankfully, she has a better support system to help her through!

I am, however, wondering if you haven't hit on another aspect of the ghost-as-mentor issue. For Max, Nasedo must have been something of a Uncle-who-would-presume-to-rule-a-kingdom (or at least, a king) as an imposed father figure or mentor by proxy. Okay, so he took up with Max's girlfriend rather than his mother, but the betrayal and control struggle (usurpery?) is still there. And since the oblivious Philip Evans cannot meet Max's needs as a father figure and guide right now, it must have hit Max hard to watch and allow a "good" father to die. Hence his psychological and theoretical physiological vulnerability to Ghost Dad? It's a thought.

Btw, I still think the greatest argument for Ghost Dad being "real" is the way he knew stuff there's no way Max could have.

shapeshifter: I've heard it argued that Max already has sacrificed himself for others -- in White Room. (And, to be honest, it kind of has become a theme -- Max putting himself at risk because he's compelled to "do something".) Maybe? Maybe not. But speaking of the Christian motif (and NOT intending ANY disrespect), I wonder if Max's confession to Liz on her balcony wasn't analogous to Jesus's (self-)doubts at Gethsemane? Just a thought, and not a terribly well-thought-out one.

Thanks ROStaFEHRian! I have to admit, my knowledge of Fisher King mythology is (or was) limited to T.S. Eliot and a book of Tuatha De Danaan myths someone once gave me (and obviously, by predating Arthur by millenia, the symbolism shifts somewhat). But I digress.

I think I'd like to take some time to ponder and mull, but I did want to comment on something now. You asked:
quote: ... recall any references that Skins or any other aliens give a hoot about Max healing?
Not only is that a fairly confident "negative", but now that you've brought it up, it's interesting that Max couldn't heal Courtney. In fact, she specifically knew that she needed the Granilyth, which I always found a little ... significant.

Picking only one tangent to follow, does this mean the healing is a human trait, effective only on other humans? Or is it a question of physiology -- i.e., Max is (perhaps subconsciously or unconsciously) able to identify and mend damage to the human body because he, inherently and instinctively, is human (super-human, if Nasedo is to be believed, and I mean that in the literal sense, not the super-hero one) and his power works on a human "frequency"?

Except: he healed the bird. So, maybe I mean not "human" but "terrestrial"? After all, don't most of the animal kingdom share a great deal of genetic material? (I mean, there's some kind of monkey that's only 6% "different" genetically speaking from humankind, right? So it's not that much of a leap to believe that animals and other Earth-bound creatures share some kind of cellular recognition that a Skin/extra-terrestrial husk would be excluded from.

Okay I'm getting so far along on this tangent that I'm looking for a trail of bread crumbs. Later y'all!

(Btw: after a PM I got earlier I want to share some quick thanks all around -- attempting something multidisciplinary like this thread only works because of people like you guys, who can think outside of the lines, or better yet, link and create new lines in new and innovative ways. Thanks!)

wow, great stuff rosta, behrall, shapeshifter, rosfan-ny, and valentifan! it's great to see this thread continuing.

good point regarding the balance being upset by the failure to heal the father and the ptsd being the trigger for that choice not to heal.

and it's striking that even the podsters would have to examine the idea of spirituality and things that are larger then themselves and the conflict they are embedded in?

also, regarding max healing terrestial beings only: perhaps healing was not his prior tendancy? and perhaps the skins would feel dirtied by having to depend on him for anything? combined with the physiological differences it's not surprising that healing the skins hasn't occurred? and very good points behrall about this issue!

thank you for the commentary on the fisher king and the quest issue. as for who helps max heal? i think that the end of the christmas episode reflects that strongly. when max tells the ghost that he 'doesn't know where to go' it seems to reflect the continuing damage and effect of the trauma on him. very powerful that his response to that dialoge is to seek out his community rather then withdrawing further. it's a powerful bifurcation point for the character. and the issue of him feeling that lost and dislocated reflects what rosta brought up about the quest and the journey themes.

and yes behrall, there is schroedinger's cat all over again! the change we have gone through in the past 100 years is amazing. and very good point about max's view of a 'good father' dying...i think that he has been in such a parentified role with the other podsters that he hasn't yet come face to face with his own needs for a father.

behrall: i'm going to have to ponder what might have happened to the podsters in a different century...i'll get back to you on this i hope.

jenlev

behrall: regarding your question about how the podsters would have been received in other time periods...i thought about this on the way to work while driving behind someone putting on mascara on at 45 mph (go figure)...

in the stone age they might have amazed and mystified their friends, family, and the shaman next door by painting the walls of THEIR cave with glowing silver handprints instead of the regular painted ones that everyone else was using.

in 1800 b.c. max might have gotten lost in the minotaur's labrynth rather then a carnival's hall of mirrors?

in 320 b.c. they might have avoided alexander the great's draft?

as far as the middle ages....all i can imagine is that scene from monty python and the holy grail when the peasants accuse the which of....well....being a witch...but instead of the witch it's the podsters: "well, they turned me into a newt, i got better!"

and in the renaissance the podsters sneaking into the sistine chapel to help michaelangelo?

and about 100 years ago max and michael would be dealing with isabel and tess joining the suffragette marches?

about 450 years from now i can see the podsters trying to hitch a ride on the enterprise D... "but captain picard, it's not that far out of your way, and we'd really like to go home!"

jenlev

Re the "saturn symbol", or "dark of the Moon" symbol, shown on the cover of Tess's book: (.) I had speculated some months ago that it was something being grasped by two hands or tenacles, and meant "Hold onto this, it's important, don't loose it", or some such. If the triangle in the center is The Granolyth, then perhaps it is the symbol for the Keepers, or Holders of The Granolyth.[/b]

This would confirm that Max & Co., as described in Tess's book which has the (.) on the cover and their pictures inside, are the ones who are holding The Granolyth.
[/B]

Reggie - I dont quite understand your theory of the symbols. The symbol on the book (the Lilth symbol) does not have a triangle - the orb symbol (that I think is yin/yang) has the triangle in the middle. And yes - I do think the triangle in the center of the swirl is the granolith.
The Book symbol:

The Orb symbol:

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It is arguable that the aliens are humans too, I suppose, but they really aren't "from this earth." Maybe healing Courtney wasn't really healing, but repairing, and that's why Max couldn't do it.

Still wondering,
Yehuda Katz

It is arguable that the aliens are humans too, I suppose, but they really aren't "from this earth." Maybe healing Courtney wasn't really healing, but repairing, and that's why Max couldn't do it.

Still wondering,
Yehuda Katz

Hi, rosfan-ny!

Actually, my argument was more focused on the thought that perhaps Max couldn't heal Courtney because genetically speaking, her form was unfamiliar to his on a fundamental level, that he had no common cellular connection to draw upon -- whereas he would with humans, animals related (even distantly) to humans, and by extension, the other podsters ... ie Michael in ID, Max in AN and presumably (hopefully) Tess after Surprise.

But I think it's one of those things that we don't really know enough to do more than speculate about.

On the other hand ... those symbols ... thanks for posting the pics, StarBox, and I will agree that there's room for interpretation, although they do seem awfully similar ... I find it hard to belive that they're not in some way related, or perhaps variations on a theme?

Maybe the way language and alphabets change over time but are still recognizable? I once did a paper using some 17th century New England primary resources, and let me tell you, the English language has evolved and standardized a great deal, even in the last couple centuries alone. Arguably, a space-faring people would have a long and ancient history ... if, speculatively speaking, the book represented a prophecy, say, and the orb a modern means of communications technology, is it not possible that they were inscribed with different incarnations of the same symbol?

Not to mention -- if you look at one then the other, you could argue that the one on the book looks neat and orderly and the one on the orb more suggestive of movement, perhaps of progression or change ... which would correlate nicely with a star system stable when an ancient prophecy was penned but in flux when the orbs were designed.

Oh, never mind my flights of fantasy. My mind works in strange ways!

Later

rosfan-ny: you are making a good point. i think i'm wondering how much of max's psychological makeup impacts who he understands himself as able to heal?

behrall: i love the idea of symbols in flux... i have a book from 1797 called "mythology compared with history: the fables of the ancients" not only is the typeset different but the language and the way of making verbal connections is drastically different from how we use words today.

and even though shakespeare is still read today there's a reason that many media productions of his plays modernizes the language.

(speaking of shakespeare...a brief hearkening back to my comment about who in the roswell lexicon would play puck in midsummer night's dream...i thought about it, and how about brody?)

anyway, perhaps the way the symbols appear are similar to words that we change when using them for past or present tense etc.... or, the symbol might be drawn one way or another depending on the attitude and stance of the being who generates it (towards what it represents?).

music is a good example of this; notation and inflection influences the sound of a particular piece tremendously.

jenlev

If I may respond to one or two points of personal interest ...

About the Skins ... you're right, maybe they hated the thought of being healed by Max, or somehow knew he couldn't heal them. Or because he couldn't before, it never occurred to them that maybe he could. I mean, wouldn't it have been interesting if they had shown up pretending to be allies and asked him to heal their husks? (And then, of course, showed their true colours.) I wonder if they knew he couldn't, didn't want him to, or if it never occurred to them ...

You know, now that you point it out, it does seem significant that Max confides so readily to the ghost. I mean, you could argue that it's more of a confession, but still, Max seems to feel more comfortable with the ghost than one might expect; we never see him doubt its presence, do we? Or go through the whole "don't you see him?" routine. It's almost like he expected him ... which could argue for Max playing a causal rather than victimized role in his appearance.

As for Brody as Puck, yes! Both possessing knowledge beyond his sphere of natural existence but also oblivious to the nuances of that knowledge; both a tool and a catalyst fo action ... gotta love it. (Heck, he's even got the accent down. ) Not to mention, his presence temporarily upset the "intended" (read conventional) romantic order of things!

And can I just say I adore -- adore! -- your idea re the symbols. Of course changing tenses would probably create the whole "similar but different" effect. Heck, for all we know, the book could be written in dative and the orb in imperative forms! Darn, now I'm wishing I paid a little more attention in class ...

Btw, love your take on podsters "through the ages"! Wouldn't it have been funny if their guardian or whatever had shown up, wanting to take them "back" to fulfill whatever destiny, only to find them leaders of a mystic cult, or insanely terrified at the thought of a round world, let alone life beyond? Or ... hippies. Or fascists, or some other political extreme that could affect their perspectives on war and space and alien beings ...

Okay, now my head's spinning! Later.

Good to be here,
Yehuda Katz

I forgot about that ... huh. I know something about Puck (well, I used to; now I dimly recall stuff about him), but what do we know about Mr. Evans? Is it possible that he plays a larger role behind-the-scenes than we know? Now that is interesting ... especially now that his stature as nominal father figure is called into question.

Again, an intelligent: "huh".

Oh, hi rosfan-ny! Check your PMs, okay? -- I really would like to know.

thanks behrall for your feedback i really wish the writers/producers of the show would just cough up that symbol canon dictionary now! can you say more about the dative and the imperitive?

about puck, i do see him as something of a prankster or trickster. maybe even something of a 'merry prankster'?

shapeshifter & behrall: thank you for the comment about mr. evan's playing puck in a school play. interesting that several people have alluded to regarding the extent of his knowlege and actions. (rosta has brought this up before as well.) there seems to be a tremendous potential here for amazing plot twists.

behrall: about max healing the husks...perhaps it's the nature of the husks that limits his ability to heal them? if they are constructs grown as a sort of suit to be worn they might not have the components that respond to a podsters healing capacity? and the fact that the skins never asked the podsters for help... regardless of their pride and rage i imagine that the podsters being hybrids increases the fact of their being an 'unknown' to all the other alien factions?

about max's response to the ghost father; perhaps the ghosts role in the drama parallels to some degree max's role in his family and community? therefore max might identify with the ghost, especially given the archetype of the alien 'outsider'? i agree that max was an active participant in the dialogue with the ghost rather then a passive victim.

also behrall, your comment about the podsters growing up in a time where the planet was believed to be flat! that's great! imagine how ticked off nasedo would have been about that? and imagine the podsters in san fransisco in the late 1960's...telling nasedo, "hey we can't go fight the skins, we're on our way to see the grateful dead!"

jenlev

Just for the sake of it,
Yehuda Katz

Just for the sake of it,
Yehuda Katz

Hey!

Wow, that's a pretty controverisal statement, considering recent trends in interpreting Puck. These days, most people seem more likely to emphasize on his playful side, arguing that he is mischievious rather than evil, and mistaken rather than malicious. But an evil Puck in Roswell ... now that would be something.

Do you see a corollary with any particular character? Or believe that there is one "in the wings" so to speak?

there is an interesting book called: "trickster makes this world" by lewis hyde. he has written about many aspects of the trickster archetype from cultures around the world.

anyway, my understanding of the trickster archetype is that pranks and trickery have the potential to do real damage; and often the trickster is taken unawares by this outcome. it's certainly a role that reflects ambivalence, i don't see it as necessarily restricted to good or evil.

instead the trickster seems to be a vehicle for people to tangle themselves up in their own manipulations; a role that reflects puck's participation in the plotline of midsummer night's eve? as for who would play this out in roswell...besides brody perhaps kyle might have? at least in the past season?

happy winter solstice everyone. may your travels be safe and full of fun!

jenlev

Hi!

quote:can you say more about the dative and the imperitive?

The Dative is the case of personal interest, pointing out the person to or for whom something is done. When it refers to a person, it indicates the one who is concerned about or affected by the action of the verb. When it refers to an object, it refers to the setting or framework in which an action takes place.

Thought: I see this as a natural form for written prophecy, where you get passive and reflective statements like "the saviours will bring to us the Granilyth", "for by the Granilyth we will be saved", "at the appointed time they will return", "let us recognize and serve the royal four", that sort of thing.

An imperative is an order: "you will fulfill your destiny", "you will come and save us", "this is what you will do" ... that sort of thing, which, when you think about it, is a natural form for instructions for a communications device (ie: "push the red button to speak", or "hold onto with other alien hybrids in the room to activate", etc.). It's also a very active form, which correlates with the "flux" theory.

quote:behrall: about max healing the husks...perhaps it's the nature of the husks that limits his ability to heal them? if they are constructs grown as a sort of suit to be worn they might not have the components that respond to a podsters healing capacity? and the fact that the skins never asked the podsters for help... regardless of their pride and rage i imagine that the podsters being hybrids increases the fact of their being an 'unknown' to all the other alien factions?

Yup, I'd go along with that ... although given what we've learned so far, the only material that we know of that the podsters can't manipulate are "heavy" atoms or something (anyone remember specifically what Nasedo said about this in White Room?); so what does that say about their make-up? I guess I'd been assuming that the husks were completely organic, although that little release thingy Courtney showed them [i]would[/] seem to suggest otherwise ... hmmm.

quote:about max's response to the ghost father; perhaps the ghosts role in the drama parallels to some degree max's role in his family and community? therefore max might identify with the ghost, especially given the archetype of the alien 'outsider'? i agree that max was an active participant in the dialogue with the ghost rather then a passive victim.

That would explain a lot, wouldn't it? More to the point, it would say something about Max himself ... he really doesn't like to show weakness in front of the other podsters, does he? When he's in psychic pain, he relates best with a ghost (who, presumably, will both soon go away) and Liz, who is but isn't part of his alien purpose. To Is/Tess/Mi, he says only "I need to do this." It's a subtle difference, but it's there, and there are definitely paternalistic over (and under)tones evident.

quote:also behrall, your comment about the podsters growing up in a time where the planet was believed to be flat! that's great! imagine how ticked off nasedo would have been about that? and imagine the podsters in san fransisco in the late 1960's...telling nasedo, "hey we can't go fight the skins, we're on our way to see the grateful dead!"

I knew it! I knew you'd work them in somehow ... ... but the point is valid (and ITA that it's funny). It is curious that the timing worked out so well, isn't it? (Well, not from a practical "we're making a tv show" POV, blah blah blah, but I mean, if it were real.)

behrall: thank you for the information on the dative and the imperative. i'm the bad grammar representative in my family.

regarding the healing of the skins...thank you for the reminder about the 'heavy atoms'. now i'm wondering if the husks involve some sort of nano-technology? or if max's instinctive revulsion may have incapacitated his skills?

also: if the hero is also a wounded healer then the degree of alienation from the community would be intensified? and on the hero's journey the level of dislocation might manefest itself as fear of asking too much from others in addition to reluctance to display any form of weakness? which leads me to wonder about the definition of weakness... and how that has changed over the past several centuries?

would it be acceptable for odysseus to ask for help? how about 'tamlin'? i'm still thinking that today we have learned to mistrust someone who doesn't acknowledge 'weakness' or ask for help? and if that's true, how did this develop?

jenlev

ps. there is a grateful dead quote for any occasion! ...and regarding the date and location for the podsters if they did appear on this planet. yes timing is everything.

The king of the planet (perhaps named Zan), is similar to the group of Shakespearean (yes... it's Shakespeare again) kings who got caught up in study and got thrown out. The closest approximation I could come up with is Prospero (of Tempest).

Max even has powers, which developed as a result of his being exiled to another world, like Prospero.

I'm not sure if this topic has been brought up, but when the neurons start firing, it's off to the R&I board with me.

Happy holidays,
Yehuda Katz

I don't like the comparison of the ghost to Hamlet. Hamlet was insane, and he drove those around him to be insane too. Liz as Ophelia-- please, no way Liz would ever go drown herself. And just who would play the Queen anyway?

BTW-- I have first dibs on being Rosencratz.

But I think that comparison to A Midsummer's Night Dream is more apt. Both Hamlet and A Midsummer's Night dream features the "play within the play". And I think that Shakespeare's primary message has always been "life's a stage."

I don't know where I get this feeling, but the Podsters seem to be puppets in a play. That they are stuck in the play within and not the main play.

Anyway, back to A Midsummer's Night Dream... What I really want to know is, Who is Bottom?

Even though Hamlet is being urged to kill and Max is urged to save lives, they are both being urged to do things as reparations.

Just throwing my 50 cents (or more) in,
Yehuda Katz

I don't know where I get this feeling, but the Podsters seem to be puppets in a play. That they are stuck in the play within and not the main play. [/B]
Great! And Shapeshifter as Guildenstern?

The Podsters are puppets, to a certain extent, in that they are intended to be manipulated in & by "The Destiny Plan". Tess is willing, but the others are less so; and I still think that Max The Control Freak will rebell against being a puppet, period. Furthermore, Nikolas, Pierce, and perhaps "Ed Harding" have wanted to use Max et al. for their own purposes.

This stuff isn't going to stop, until the podsters have some idea what's going on. Then they can act instead of merely reacting. Dare I hope that someone (Liz?) will suggest they quiz the next alien that drops in?

qfanny: i was thinking of brody as puck, but now that you bring up bottom he might be a better fit for that role? only instead of a donkey's head he gains an alien's head?

reggie: i do agree with what rosta posted regarding the theme of uncertain/reluctant heroes who are unable to ask the important questions to help themselves on their journeys. denial is a powerful influence on the podsters behavior; even at this point in the story. and a hero who is conscious on any level of being a pawn will be more reluctant to delve into the mystery of it all then most?

and the issues that the characters are faced with are such that i would expect that their continued ambivalence would drive the way in which they gather information. to quote the grateful dead: "you aren't going to learn what you don't what to know."

certainly it would be gratifying if they would ask the questions (on camera please ) and then receive the answers... but i imagine that those answers would be full of riddles, half truths and subjective colorations? and in asking questions do the podsters expose more of their vunerabilities then is safe or appropriate at this time?

jenlev

Kivar is Claudius, who took the throne from the rightful king (Hamlet/Max) but tried to make it appear to the common people of Denmark/homeplanet that he was good. Isabel/Vilandra I think is the queen -- she is basically a good person (Isabel anyway - Vilandra probably not) but became involved with the enemy, therefore betraying her family (or Old Hamlet). Maybe Polonius is Nickolas, Kivar's righthand man?

Old Hamlet's ghost is represented by Momogram, a spirit who comes to Hamlet/Max (and the other podsters) telling him of his destiny or duty. This changes his whole outlook on life, but he is unable to act for awhile (think Ask Not). Hamlet is then forced to give up his love for Ophelia (probably Liz) in order to pursue this vengance... anyway that's how I interpreted his denying his love for her. Her role in the play isn't so striking as Liz in Roswell... Liz is always there for Max in times of need and has made many sacrifices for the good of his cause, while Ophelia isn't even aware of the duty Hamlet was informed of by his father's ghost.

Michael is harder to identify as a character. My first instinct is to choose Horatio, Hamlet's partner in crime in planning revenge and dear friend. However, their personalities are nothing alike. Horatio is a scholar and a pretty meek guy who basically agrees with what Hamlet says... not Michael at all.

Anyway, sorry for such a long post. Hope it's not too incoherent and babbling!

*Silver Dreamcatcher*

I don't know where I get this feeling, but the Podsters seem to be puppets in a play....

One more thing that gives me a similar feeling is Michael's reference to Ulysses (the novel by James Joyce), which is noted for having an elaborate inner story -- a symbolic re-enactment of the the Odyssey. It made me suspect the Roswell writers were playing the same game (and even twitting us about it) -- that they were symbolically giving us bits of the podsters' history. For example, the kids' escape from Atherton's basement seemed to represent emergence from the pods. Why are no adults present? Two are nearby -- a guardian has been temporarily disabled by an adversary, who has only just discovered the place. There were many more that seemed like this, especially in the Pilot, 285 South, Blood Brothers, and Blind Date. But now I'm not so sure -- maybe with the new season parts of the plan have changed.

just noticed this post is number 666
(Fortuitous, that it's on a symbolism thread -- I didn't plan it that way.) Well, the count won't change for awhile; I can't think of anything else to post. Time to sleep -- at 0520 I have to get ready to join the trombone choir at church playing Christmas tunes until 1240. Meanwhile, speaking of counting: http://www.yeodoug.com/prezbones1.jpg

Qfanny's response
I totally agree with this assessment. A part of me thinks that the "writer" is trying to tell us, "Hey, I actually do know about literature and can make my own references. Let's see if you're smart enough to pick up on them."

Michael seems to have an ability for literature and language that the podsters do not have. He is well read, (Ulyssess) and knew that the granolith meant "stepping stone." He also was able to decode the cave painting.

He also broke his promise and went to meet Topolsky when he found out the orb was a communicator.

As it's Max's primary ability to heal, would Michael's primary ability be to communicate?

But going back to Shakespeare, I think that the Roswell canon and Shakespeare are not great comparisons. The play within the play was often Shakespeare's little inside joke on the other playwrites of his day. (Think satrical commentary.) With that in mind, would the podster's play really a legitimate effort to restore peace. Or is a distraction to the real peace effort on Twilo?

qfanny: interesting what you said about michael's powers centering around communication and max's around healing...perhaps they are able to provide for others what they each need and want for themselves?

it does fit the pattern often seen in literature of an individual seeking out a treasure only to discover that it was already within themselves?

i also like your comment about the podsters and the peace effort: more of the shell game again? perhaps each of the different alien factions have a different agenda about the legitimacy of the podster's hero's journey?

jenlev

In ARCC, Tess says Valenti & Son are like a couple of beached whales. Symbolism? Endangered Species? Mammals? Beached......

In ARCC, Tess says Valenti & Son are like a couple of [b]beached whales. Symbolism? Endangered Species? Mammals? Beached......[/B]

Moby Dick? Tess is always chasing after the dream of a family.

Jamethiel

"I shall believe."

quote: jenlev said: regarding the healing of the skins...thank you for the reminder about the 'heavy atoms'. now i'm wondering if the husks involve some sort of nano-technology? or if max's instinctive revulsion may have incapacitated his skills?
First of all, that is just plain cool. (Okay, I’m a peripheral Trekkie, I admit it.) Second … are you suggesting that intent plays a key role in Max’s ability to heal? I.e., he has to “want” the healing to take place, or it won’t work? Would (and I’m wincing as I type this) that explain why he couldn’t heal Grandma Claudia – not because he couldn’t, but because he a) believed he couldn’t, or b) because subconsciously, he feared the exposure of healing someone being so closely monitored in an uncontrolled situation?

quote:jenlev said: if the hero is also a wounded healer then the degree of alienation from the community would be intensified? and on the hero's journey the level of dislocation might manefest itself as fear of asking too much from others in addition to reluctance to display any form of weakness?
Wow; that would explain a great deal about Max and the choices he makes, wouldn’t it? My question is: does his journey end when he does ask (whatever) of others, like in ARCC when he “asked” the other podsters for the go-ahead before healing the girl? Or when he takes the counsel they offer, and then makes his decision regardless of their advice, like when he told Michael about the relapse, and that he was going? Or do new journeys take their place? Or simply new steps of the same journey? Help, help!

quote: would it be acceptable for odysseus to ask for help? how about 'tamlin'?
Hmmm … I think it would depend on who Odysseus asked; for some reason, though, I find myself thinking immediately of Penelope … very loosely speaking, she is the one that Odysseus talks to, while he fights with and among men, faintly reminiscent of Max and Liz. Very faintly. I mean, there is the deception with the *ahem * bed and related matters, and a special bond of recognition between the two that builds up to their actual meeting (thinking of him seeing her as a child).

I read this somewhere: “it is implied that Penelope is a woman who holds her virtue above all else and even Agamemnon, a recent convert to misogyny, appears to have respect for her, after the disposal of the suitors.” Now, I’m not suggesting that Max is a misogynist in any way, but it can’t be denied that part of how he sees and values Tess relates to how her powers can be used in and for their “cause”, and arguably, for the way she supports him unconditionally. Liz, on the other hand, requires that he respect her as an individual who will not do something just because he wants it. Oh! And like Penelope, her “virtue” is very important to her, although she has had her share of suitors.

Just a thought.

As for Tamlin … when he intruded upon the faerie-realm, he would have had to ask for permission (they would have taken offence otherwise). But when he sought help; didn’t he ask for things that would serve his final purpose (possession of the maiden, right)? So it wasn’t really help he wanted, but to manipulate and obtain what he wanted slyly … Nah. Honestly, I don’t see him asking for anything … he would take where he could, and “test” those who would help him to help themselves (Janet). What do you think?
quote: rosfan-ny said: The king of the planet (perhaps named Zan), is similar to the group of Shakespearean (yes... it's Shakespeare again) kings who got caught up in study and got thrown out. The closest approximation I could come up with is Prospero (of Tempest).
Of course, Prospero was neglecting his realm (a dukedom, wasn’t it?) when he was tossed, and apparently, Zan was a little too progressive to suit his peers, but I think I see your point. Both were forward thinking, weren’t they? And it’s true what you say, that quote: Even though Hamlet is being urged to kill and Max is urged to save lives, they are both being urged to do things as reparations.
The question is, I think, whether the comparison goes much deeper. I think Max had demonstrated a remarkable capacity for sanity so far. And I would like to think he’s a lot stronger than Hamlet.
quote: Qfanny said: What I really want to know is, Who is Bottom?
A friend of mine, who will need to grovel to get back in my good graces, has suggested Alex. Grrr. True, he has, if you will excuse the phrase, both made an @ss of himself and shown a propensity for comedic drama and performance that on occasion indirectly furthers plot. But I’m not sure that we have a Bottom, which is too bad, ‘cause I think it could be highly entertaining.
quote: Reggie said: The Podsters are puppets, to a certain extent, in that they are intended to be manipulated in & by "The Destiny Plan" … Nikolas, Pierce, and perhaps "Ed Harding" have wanted to use Max et al. for their own purposes.
This stuff isn't going to stop, until the podsters have some idea what's going on. Then they can act instead of merely reacting. Dare I hope that someone (Liz?) will suggest they quiz the next alien that drops in?
My first reaction is to shout heartily in agreement, and I definitely feel (and resent) the puppet strings being pulled. But … I think jenlev has a point; are they ready for this knowledge? And how will they know which questions to ask, and which not to ask? And who do they ask what of? I have to wonder if (as frustrating as it is as a viewer), it isn’t better that they take this slowly, and not risk messing with plotlines and story arcs too drastically (or even, irrepairably)? Btw, I kind of get the feeling that Liz is not finding herself in much of a “leader” role these days; I do see Isabel and Tess becoming quite the able interrogators, though (witness the Courtney and Ava scenes).

quote:SilverDreamcatcher said (and “hi”, btw): I like the idea of Guildenstern and Rosencratz being … represented in Roswell by Lonnie and Rath, making Max think they are going to help him but instead trying to kill him.
I like this too … (OT, but ever seen or read “Guildenstern and Rosencratz are Dead? Freaking hilarious.) I like your logic re: Kivar is Claudius, Vilandra as Queen, and Nicholas as Polonius, and also, quote: Old Hamlet's ghost is represented by Momogram, a spirit who comes to Hamlet/Max (and the other podsters) telling him of his destiny or duty. This changes his whole outlook on life, but he is unable to act for awhile (think Ask Not). Hamlet is then forced to give up his love for Ophelia (probably Liz) in order to pursue this vengance... Not so keen on Liz as an Orphelia figure, though it may be a personal bias rather than an objective one.
quote:Nemo said:One more thing that gives me a similar feeling is Michael's reference to Ulysses (the novel by James Joyce), which is noted for having an elaborate inner story -- a symbolic re-enactment of the Odyssey.
Oh, I agree too! It seemed like kind of a strange insertion, but not without a certain internal logic (Michael’s “favourite quote” notwithstanding). Moreover, it seems almost self-evident (given their penchant for surprises, plot twists and hidden players – as well as the alienation them!) that there is a larger story going on somehow, and not just a distant interplanetary war. (*Giggle* … “just” ) Which would (I think) work with what Qfanny said about both “sartirical commentary” AND the “real” significance of the podsters’ “play” to the situation back “home”.

Which of course means I read jenlev’s last post with absolute glee. Right on! ITA! Personally, I have to admit that it’s just nice to think of Michael in another capacity than just brute offensive strength.

Final thought: shapeshifter, you brought up “beached whale” symbolism? I would suggest, just off the top of my head, associations with Eliot’s Wasteland/Fisher King, of being trapped, helpless, out of one’s element. There is the indirect biblical association of being a “great fish” not fulfilling its destined purpose the way Jonah’s whale did, and the Freudian interpretation of, well, (arguably) impotence – which leads to some interesting speculation about why Jim and even Kyle responded as they did to Amy’s appearance and the following dinner interaction. Or, of course, Jamethiel's much more plausible and less hackneyed explanation ...

Whew! Well, glad I got that all out of my system … so, who’s got more? Btw, Happy Holidays, everyone!

BehrAll: This post tells me you are truly back in full force Happy New Year -2001

PIEFACE! Hi! How are you? It's been a while, huh? Happy New Year yourself!

And yeah *chuckle* see what havoc I get up to when I get free time? Oh yeah -- I'm a menace.

behrall: i don't know if intent plays a role in max's ability to heal...perhaps it's related to what he believes he can do as you said. although i expect that there are clear limitations to the podsters powers. and grandma claudia's system was deteriorating. the limits imposed on his capacity to heal others might reflect a system of boundaries and mortality that effects all beings; alien or not. and isn't that the theme of so many fairy tales and myths; that despite great powers there are always limitations and boundaries? remember in the disney cartoon alaadin the genie says: "great metaphysical powers, itsy bitsy teeny weeny living space".

regarding the hero's/healer's journey being impacted by asking for help: i feel that the journey doesn't end, but that the individual's allignment to it changes and evolves. and not just for max in ARCC, but for the other podsters who seem to be more aware of the factors involved in the choices that they and max struggle with.

by the way: i understood max's approach to michael before he went to phoenix as a way to include michael in the process and decision... it opened the door for michael to set a boundary if he chose to?

also, i do agree about what you said regarding odysseus. and i do think that max continues to develop a sense of tess beyond her usefulness as a weapon, just as she is understanding who max is beyond just the concept of destiny?

interesting about tamlin, annoying fellow wasn't he?

regarding max vs. hamlet: i do see hamlet as representing the brittle fragility of rigid strength. and max seems to be portrayed with a component of flexible strength. perhaps it's related to the whole concept of leadership which continues to change over the centuries. "you who chose to lead must follow" to quote the grateful dead in 'ripple'.

these days a leader who functions as if they were hamlet would find themselves deposed, hospitalized and otherwise de-clawed? so perhaps the podsters and the members of the 'i know an alien club' represent leaders in flux who have a 'time-share' deal on the role of leader?

as for alex as bottom, say it's not so? heh heh heh... seriously though that is a hard role to fill this season?

anyway behrall, yes it's nice to see michael in a role of communicator, something he seems to be developing as he continues his reconnection with max?

and i'm struck by your comments about the beached whale imagery... certainly the idea of something that's out of it's element or trapped in an alien environment fits the story.

shapeshifter: i always felt sad for cassandra. anyway, i think despite the fact that no one believed her she was still an oracle. after all if a tree falls in a forest and nobody is there it still makes a sound? even if no one is listening cassandra was still speaking the words of the gods?

happy new year everyone!

jenlev

The prophet was Balaam (remember his donkey?) who was being paid to prophesy against Israel, but who could say nothing except what God told him and that was that Israel was to be the victor.

tvpooh: i absolutely love your comment about working your "butt off for four years to analyze a tv show". this reminds me of the classic new yorker cartoon of two men dressed as scarecrows perched on poles in a cornfield near a traditional looking barn...one is saying to the other: "english lit., and you?" i say apply those liberal arts educations whenever possible!

a question: how are we defining insanity? the definition has evolved over the past few millenium. by today's standards hamlet would be diagnosed with 'something'. but given the parameters of his time perhaps not? it's like looking at alexander the great. by our standards he might be described as 'gone ga ga" (bipolar perhaps?) , but in the hellenistic world his behavior was that of a classic (no pun intended) hero?

and what we ascribe to auditory or visual hallucinations today might have been viewed as communing with the gods? the oracle at delphi might have been locked up for fullfilling their roles in today's society?

jenlev

Must go now.

Seriously, think about it, did any other character change much? Sure, you could point to Max because he saw the ghost, but I would argue that his dilemma actually reflected what has been going on with him pretty consistently, no real surprises (er, behaviourally; obviously, the circumstances were a little surprising. I'm talking about his reaction to them). Did we see him undergo any real catharthis? Yes, his comment to Liz at the end, but this spoke more of abrupt editing to me than an epiphany.

Liz? No. (Hair looked great, though.) Michael? Sweet, sweet boy, and his admission and "gift" to Max at the end was good, but change? I wouldn't say so. Maria? Not really. Love her, I do, but the gift thing? Uh unh. No real growth shown there. And her plan for Brody? Sweet, but ... no. Isabel? No. Funny as all get out, and it was nice to see her smile, but nothing fundamental changed for her (in fact, I'd say her very stability this ep was meaningful). Kyle? Maybe, although I'm not sure we didn't see anything that's been developing gradually anyways. The Sheriff? I'd say no. Amy? Nope. The Evanses? Not a jot.

Alex? Sure -- if you consider his non-existence significant. I think he grew a lot this ep!

But Tess ... ahh, Tess. Nice to finally see her in a "non-Destiny-significant" setting, just being herself, and a teen/young adult, away from Max. Plus, if you wanted to find parallels, you could argue that:

a) She did address Christmases past when she brought up the tree (or lack thereof), trying to pass it off, but clearly there was something lacking, and she recognized it.

b) As for Christmas present (in a time sense, not a gift ), I'd say that she confronted that demon, boldly taking the chance that if the Valenti's saw her as anything less than the perfect house guest, with a temper and needs of her own, that they'd accept her -- which they did.

c) Re Christmas future ... okay, fuzzier, but you could interpret her obvious goodwill and lack of hostility at the pageant(?) as indicative of "a lesson learnt" or something just as trite now that I type it out. And the very fact that she puts such effort into the turkey and a family occasion suggests (to me, at least) an investment into future relationships with and among these humans.

Well, these are just my immediate reactions. Any better ideas?

I feel real dumb for not noticing this message sooner.

As far as Alex as Bottom, hmmm.... I could see it up until The Balance. Alex was the closest character we have to being played as an ass. But there was no comedy in his situation, was there?

qfanny: good point about max gaining an awareness of a higher power that might impact both human's and aliens. perhaps another aspect of the miracle was the podster's recognition of the costs of what has occurred in the past year. this feels somewhat miraculous as we live in a culture where consequences of experience and trauma are often discounted.

so to some degree if any of the characters in roswell grapple with the effects of what has happened to them, and actually begin to discuss it; they are all changing/maturing?

i'm also not a big dickens fan, but it seems to me that his characters struggle to come to terms with loss and choices that they have made which continue to resonate throughout their lives? this might reflect the journey that the roswell characters are on: they are striving to make conscious choices about how to navigate the situation sucessfully? any heroic character seems to be more sucessful in their journey/task if they can understand how their choices effect themselves and other?

jenlev

quote:regarding the hero's/healer's journey being impacted by asking for help: i feel that the journey doesn't end, but that the individual's allignment to it changes and evolves.jenlev: okay, that makes sense ... thanks!

quote:i understood max's approach to michael before he went to phoenix as a way to include michael in the process and decision... it opened the door for michael to set a boundary if he chose to?Yes, I agree. In fact, I guess I didn't really realize it before, but this time Max did listen to Michael, because he didn't go ahead and heal the girl after his initial meeting with the podsters (where Michael was "outvoted" but obviously not unheard. Which, now that I think about it, is progress for both Max and Michael, who's discovering his ability for two-way communication ...

As for Max and Tess ... I can't help but think that they'd both benefit from getting to know each other better (I mean, in these incarnations) before either makes any life-changing decisions.

And re your idea of "leaders in flux" ... were you, by any chance, a B5 fan? Because I'd be interested to know if you (or anyone else here) sees any parallel with the transitional nature of "the One"? Just curious, really.

And now that I think about it, maybe it's significant that it's Tess who uses the "beached whale" analogy, because she would identify with that imagery better than, say, "couch potatoes"?

shapeshifter: that's an interesting comment about gods and truth; maybe it is a bit assumptive to assume a divine message is automatically "true" (or presumptive to challenge it; oops, thin ice here ...). My point is, if you compare Tess's book and memories with Cassandra's channeling(?), it brings up that old question of whether the pictures of Destiny are "truth" or simply "a truth", which would have very different consequences.

That reminds me: jenlev, it's been argued that typically, many prophets and visionaries were half-insane at best, either because it reflected the effect of having a will or consciousness imposed upon their own, or because it better facilitated both the process and accurate retrieval (since the whacked-out revealer would have no personal influence on the message or its delivery). I wonder ...

Hi, reguru; thanks, and you know, it's an interesting thought: what makes a prophet? My dictionary defines one as an "inspired teacher, revealer or interpreter of God's will". So, is there any degree to it? (I mean, if you tell only part of a prophecy, or change and/or conceal part of it for any reason, does that negate in any way your effectiveness and integrity as a prophet?

TVPooh: that's interesting; I'd assumed that it was Zan's stubbornness and unwillingness to reconsider his decision that got him killed ... but of course, we don't know the whole story, do we? And he was a king in limbo ...

Qfanny, jenlev: I'm not so much a fan of Dickens as I am proud that I managed to get through a couple of his books at all. But I do think he explores something of the human journey as a regular theme, and arguably, much of ARCC was about the podsters developing their human side, so I saw a few parallels in there.

I'm still curious, however, as to whether (as I hope) this human development will in fact prove important to their alien purpose ... I guess I'm thinking of that guy (forget his name) who was the Pip's mysterious benefactor in Great Expectations (speaking of journeys ... ), and hoping like anything that the podsters' backers are not comparable.

Happy New Years, All!

Your post made me go back to Jeremiah 29:9, where Jeremiah is speaking to Hananiah (who has just contradicted the prophesy of Jeremiah by saying that the temple vessels and captives that/who were taken to Babylon will be returned within 2 years). Jeremiah says, "As for the prophet who prophesies of peace, when the word of the prophet comes to pass, the prophet will be known as one whom the Lord has truly sent".

Scripturally, the definition of prophet only applies to those whose prophecies are accurate, that come true. This is a great sifting factor since myriads claim to have "inspiration". Obviously, since most prophecies relate to the future, one has to wait a good while (or future generations) to judge the reality of who is a prophet and who is an imposter.

As for concealment or partial revelation of a prophecy, wouldn't the effectiveness depend on the reason why some of the prophecy is withheld?

New Years food for thought.

behrall: regarding babylon 5, yes i've enjoyed it quite a bit over the years...and i do see the leader in flux issue being very well played out with 'the one' as well as with several of the other characters.

regarding prophets and visionaries being "half insane"; there are some thoughts that often these folks had some near death or other extreme experience which in turn allowed them to access the informtion. i've heard them described as being 'closer to the ether'. think of mozart who paid a price for his genius; but that very price may have been what also allowed him to activate his genius?

anyway, both a near death or extreme experience and the task of being a prophet would certainly effect a being's capacity to function 'normally'? and how much of what a prophet/shaman says is misunderstood, copied down incorrectly or just too obscure for most people to percieve/understand?

and if a prophecy doesn't stand the test of time; does that reflect innacuracy as well as the fact that free will still exists and can still effect the outcome of any situation?

it seems to be a strong theme for many stories...even on babylon 5: characters fighting to change the destiny that has been foretold and having the basic truth of the prophecy still occur even if the players and the situations change?

jenlev

So Liz is a prophet, now that she has knowledge of a possible future?

And how likely is it that when one has knowledge of the future that it becomes a self-fufilling prophecy? Or is it the podsquad who is now caught in a self-fufilling prophecy, destined to make the same mistakes they did in their past life?

And all those allusions to B5 bring back memories...

"I would live for the One. I would die for the One." Zathras would like to think that Liz is the One.
"And so it begins..."

God, if I start watching the 2 shows side by side, I'll start believing the Vorlons are responsible for the granilith.

Zathras thinks it's time for bed...

My husband and I are new to Bab5 but have been following it on SciFi Channel since it came on in September and we've been talking Zathras-speak ever since War Without End aired last week. "Never use this!"

That tachyon field generator that Z. and his colleague were operating made the granilith look a bit dinky--one of them certainly wouldn't fit in that pod cave! Gotta be some connection, though! The time paradoxes are just too delicious. So if Sinclair is the son of Delenn and Sheridan, does that make Kivar the son of Liz and Max? Just kidding! Not a good analogy at all, but, "Oh, well, at least there is symmetry!"

Happy New Year!
Liz

Biblically, aren't there "Prophets" and "false prophets?" Or is that Christianese?

About the Dickens connection: Ghost Guy does remind me of the Ghosts of Christmas Past, Present, and Future. AND, we have had a lot of time sequences in Roswell already. So, even though I think BehrAll's interpretation is totally valid, and even though I'm basing this on the Mr. Magoo version, I'm thinking of Max as going from Scrooge with his gift to Mr. Generosity.

More later. Feel free to disagree, correct, etc.

As for the "prophets" and "false prophets" -
there are a few mentioned in the Bible -
These verses come to mind:

Act 13:6 And when they had gone through the isle unto Paphos, they found a certain sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew, whose name [was] Barjesus.

AND Jer 23:32 Behold, I [am] against them that prophesy false dreams, saith the LORD, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their lightness; yet I sent them not, nor commanded them: therefore they shall not profit this people at all, saith the LORD.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Still working on understanding that Book.

Well - off to reread The Hamlet Syndrome a book I've left gatherimg dust, along with many more, on my schelves.

SD2
: star:

Okay when ever I think of Roswell, I think of it as a spin on the Romeo and Julliet classic.

Liz and Max are stuck in the middle because, well they are our star crossed lovers. Michael and Maria tend to pretend to hate each other, and Isabel blows Alex off. I see Isabel as the advisor to Max and Maria to Liz. I see that Tess is sort of the reverse Paris, because well she wants to marry Max and in the book Paris wants to marry Julliet, while Tess is in love with Max. In the first season you could of said that Kyle was Paris because he loved Liz. I think Maria who's trying to push them together would be sort of the Nanny and Michael who's trying to push them apart would be Juillet's cousin. Alex would just be apart of Liz's family.

Sorry that's long, but hey, I'm new!

And yes, the B5 take on destiny was definitely intriguing; I'm just not sure if I like the prospect of such a convoluted fate for the Roswell bunch ...

nermal: Self-fulfilling prophecies? Scary thought. A few thoughts? we've already seen Max find out that he really wasn't meant to be with Liz, and that knowing him would be dangerous to her. And Isabel is having to confront her role in the cause "on her own", romantically speaking. Michael has found his big purpose, his "something out there", and he's farther into a human relationship than he was before. Tess ... well, she seems to be within grasp of her goal, but I have to wonder if it would be everything she thinks it would. I mean, she's put Max on one heck of a high pedestal ... we know that Liz sees and accepts his weaknesses, and we saw her recognize and help him deal with them in ARCC; I would be curious to see Tess do the same (no really, I would! If only just to be sure that she isn't going to be hugely disappointed down the line.)

shapeshifter: The whole fun of interpretations is that there are usually more than one right, or more accurately, applicable answer ... I still think that Tess underwent the greatest change, but there's no denying that the others did too, on varying levels. As for "false prophets" ... you are going to follow up with something speculative, aren't you? I'm beginning to think everything the podsters learn should be taken with a huge grain of salt, and you are just feeding the paranoia!

Speaking of which, Star_Dust2, are you referring to the podsters as "the elect"? I can't help but wonder how to what degree their political and martial positions are based upon hereditary "right" and (theoretical) importance of possibly spiritual symbols? Akso, does this say anything about the nature of Tess's particular strengths/powers?

The Christmas Tree Nazi: Cool; I especially like the aspect of Isabel as advisor. I'm not sure why, but it seems like a very provocative position for her to be in, what with her issues with loyalty and all ...

Well, later all!

behrall: regarding the issue of trauma and near death experiences impacting a shaman's/prophets capacity to function in their roles... i was thinking of a general discussion about this with a jungian who spoke about a tradition of stories describing a life transition brought on by trauma or near death resulting in the person taking on the role of a shaman or prophet...

this might apply to any of the roswell characters? although, i wonder if the trauma/near death experience is what changes the human or podster? or is it the nature of being a hybrid, and the change imposed by a podster on a human? or all of the above? there was some prior discussion on the thread regarding research about the effect on the brain of trauma/stress. perhaps this might apply here?

as for babylon 5: i also hope the roswell characters enjoy a brighter storyline then the poor folks on b5.

jenlev

Anyway, I saw this post and it got me to thinking about the Tarot card suit of Rods again. I thought with this additional information, it might add some insight.

snipped from Liz's thread #24 quote:megageekgirl posted 1-4-01
Guess what! I know what Roswell Rods are! I actually saw this on the sci-fi channel just the other day. It would appear that photographers and video camera buffs have been getting these weird rod shaped images on their film. It looks kind of like a very small rod with undulating wings. About the size of an insect. The wings do not flap, but actually move like a wave. They apparently move at tremendous speeds because most people do not see them even if they were photographed right in front of them. No one knows what they are. Sceptics say they are trash on the lens or bad film. Believer say they are living alien creatures.

I believe that there is a web site on this very subject. I don't have the address, but I saw it when I was looking for alien writing sites.

Just thought that you might like to know.

Here's what Starbox said about Rods on page 3.
quote:1) Rod = fire, point of departure for activity, sceptre of male domination - the father.

Thoughts?

Plus, "she doesn't know what she's talking about". Judging from some of the other comments, they appearently hadn't filmed past the Christmas show and the cast isn't told what happens next; so she really didn't know much more than we do. We only know that Liz is "changed", and probably Kyle.

Remember:
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?