Topic: The Science Fiction of Ask Not
By LSS 10-09-2000, 07:12 PM
Ask Not, the second episode in season 2, is obviously structured around Max's struggle to find direction in both his public role as leader and his private hoped for role as lover. Interwoven around these themes are various Science Fiction revelations and questions: 1) NEW POWERS. We now find out that Max can activate a force field and immobilize people. What other powers will we see unveiled this season? And why weren't Izzy and Michael a bit more surprised? And, although healing is not a "new" power...it is to our knowledge of Tess. Can Tess heal anyone? Or does she have a special link (and thus access) to Max? 2) THE ALIEN (PENTAGRAM-LIKE) DEVICE. Okay--we know that these devices activate when in the presence of aliens--or at least SOME aliens. The big question, of course, is why Michael and not Max? Does the device have to be held
By a biological entity before it is "turned" on? But are we to think that Brody just happened to be holding it on May 14 at 4:33p.m.? If he wasn't then how did he know that a pulse eminated from it at that time? 3) THE SKINS. Okay--Courtney is a "skin". And from that itching we saw, it looks as if skins have to shed their skin much like snakes. And it also looks like our podsters cannot "sense" them. The only person uncomfortable around Courtney is Maria and -- ahem -- we KNOW why Maria is...or DO we? BTW--why didn't the skin disintegrate when Courtney pulled it off? Does it only do so after a period of time has elapsed? Poor sewers! 4) MEMORY RETRIEVAL. Folks, this is something (as a dreamer) I've always been worried about. Tess says she "remembers" some things about the home planet because Harding taught her some memory retrieval techniques. What if Max can "remember" that he loved Tess? Then again, did it strike you as strange that Max never "followed up" when Tess said she DID remember things about the ole' home planet? 5) HARDING IS GONE FOR GOOD? Shame--I'm going to miss him. Did you notice there were no bones? I wonder why since he was supposed to have bones! Did you notice our podsters (at least Izzy) assume that the same thing would happen to them if they died...but I don't think it would, do you? Well there's more, but I'm going to stop and save the rest for later posts. What do you think folks? LSS
By LSS 10-09-2000, 07:28 PM
POSTSCRIPT: Any idea on the function of that energy pulse that hit Michael? Izzy identified the device as a weapon, but I don't think it acted like one. And if Michael has human DNA then why wasn't Brody affected? LSS
By jenlev 10-09-2000, 07:36 PM
hi there, maybe isabel and michael were not surprised about max's new skill because they also have been practicing on their own...and perhaps they were relieved that max might actually be preparing for what is to come
By sharpening his abilities?
By the way, interesting that the director/writer(s) utilized the post traumatic stress disorder issue when focusing on max's decision to kill or not to kill brody. it fits with the charactor development portrayed in season 1. and the mixture of images shown appeared to fit the type of flashback one might expect as max struggled with the issue of whether or not he would treat someone else the way pierce treated him...and this is a vital issue for trauma survivors to metabolise. i imagine that all the podsters could heal someone, although their ambivalence about the person and themselves might impact the effectiveness of such an effort? i have no clue as to why the device didn't activate when max was approaching it...perhaps he's a tad more contained energy wise? although this is just a vague leap on my part...and maybe michael's degree of anger/rage made him more visible to the device?
whereas max seems to grapple more with fear? i imagine that courtney's facial skin would have dried out fairly quickly but that courtney didn't have the time to wait, nor was she willing to take the risk it would be found. this makes me wonder if she is even aware of all the times when she's been leaving bits of skin around? there is a grateful dead song..."black throated wind" with the line..."you aint going to learn what you don't want to know".
this seems to describe much of max's response to tess and what she has to say. and it's unclear to me how much of what tess recalls are truly her memories... and how much was in response to the pressure from nasedo to fit into a certain profile. i imagine that tess would be very invested in getting nasedo's approval no matter how conscious she was of that. therefor she might dredge up memories as a way of appeasing him? as for nasedo's bones... possible the idea was that they bones themselves were of a make up that wouldn't morph, yet would dissolve in combination with the rest of his body when he actually died? jenlev ps. is the dna in the podsters somehow different from 'regular humans'? perhaps the device is set up to respond to altered human dna as well as shapeshifter essense? and what might happen to human dna when combined with alien essense? does alien essense act as some sort of "human-helper"
By Reggie 10-09-2000, 07:38 PM
AND WHAT WAS THAT EYEBALL !!! OK, we see a montage of important people getting killed or hurt. Liz, Pierce, Hubble, Max (WR). Was that eyeball from someone else getting killed? Is this what proto-Max looked like ?!?
By plumeria 10-09-2000, 07:42 PM
Maria is NOT the only one who gets uncomfortable around a Skin. Max got the feeling he was being watched, at school, didn't he? As for the force-shield ... I didn't get the impression that it restricted anyone's movement, except as a barrier to prevent them from moving forward. The janitor thought there was something wrong with his face-shield because he had seen the green barrier -- but if he had been truly immobilized, he wouldn't have thought THAT could be caused
By a mere face-shield! Could there have been a Skin at the UFO center when Michael went to steal the device? (We still can't tell if the Skins can make themselves invisible or not.) Maybe a Skin triggered the device in Brody's hand, to keep Michael from getting it? My own questions: Do you think Brody really WAS abducted
By aliens? Why? By "good" or "evil" aliens? Who sold him the device?
By LSS 10-09-2000, 07:50 PM
quote:Originally posted
By plumeria: Maria is NOT the only one who gets uncomfortable around a Skin. Max got the feeling he was being watched, at school, didn't he? [/B] plumeria: Yes -- Max does sense someone is watching him. BUT no one but Maria keeps giving Courney odd glances--unless you count Michael. We know Courtey is a skin. We do not know (but we suspect) that those weird visual shots are from a skin's POV. You know, IF they aren't from a skin's POV -- what are they? LSS
By Stefy 10-09-2000, 07:50 PM
Maybe he was abducted
By good aliens because they cured his cancer, but why would they just do that? Only if they were experimenting. I also thought it was weird that Isabel said something about how she was too young to turn to dust. Their bodies are different from Nasedo's body so I'm thinking that when they die it will be more in a human way than in Nasedo's way. Does that make sense?
By LSS 10-09-2000, 07:52 PM
BTW--anyone know what in the world was going on when that tipsy congresswoman sobered up and said "Tess"? Up till that point the whole exchanges was amusing. When Liz exited the room it turned sinister real quick! LSS
By Stefy 10-09-2000, 07:58 PM
I know what you mean. I was like what about Tess? She looked like she wanted to kill her. I mean does she actually know who the aliens are or is she just thinking about the name. It was just weird.
By Fraz 10-09-2000, 08:00 PM
Hi I dont post very often usually read LSS thread. I think the Maria sensing is the fact that Courtney is putting the flirting with Michael signals out there flinging it around Maria is being teritorial even if Michael and her are not together YET! The Tess healing. I would think since she spent alot of time with Michael and she is helping him brush up on his skills that perhaps Michael helped her with the healing skill. We know Michael healed River Dog so not just Max with that power. I am glad to see that Max has not lost his compasion for human life or towards Tess she is after all just a lost soul looking for a place to belong. Loved the interaction between Kyle and Tess.
I howled at the budda boy comment and the post it notes...LOL The Congresswoman is not who she appears to be huh? That was a surprise. A thought what if she just thought diddling Pierce was a human and Pierce diddling the COngresswoman thought she was human...LOL What if neither were human? Kinda of irony! Max and Liz will survive but wow this is going to be one season of mystery and perhaps alot of miss directions. Cathi/Fraz MOB1
By max&liz4ever 10-09-2000, 08:01 PM
if my memory serves me correctly (which it probably doesn't ) the reason that nasedo couldn't get through the fingerprint/bone scan in 'white room' was b/c he didn't have bones, remember? he could duplicate the fingerprints and body, but not the bones, that's why it was so important for micheal to change his fingerprints am i wrong? just wondering
By sidera 10-09-2000, 08:04 PM
also another thing, maria has this certain knack of pinpointing the nature of everyone's character. she was right about Topolsky, Tess, and now, Courtney. I can't wait to sic Maria on the Congresswoman and see what she has to say about it. think there might be something supernatural about maria?
By LSS 10-09-2000, 08:06 PM
quote:Originally posted
By max&liz4ever: if my memory serves me correctly (which it probably doesn't ) the reason that nasedo couldn't get through the fingerprint/bone scan in 'white room' was b/c he didn't have bones, remember? he could duplicate the fingerprints and body, but not the bones, that's why it was so important for micheal to change his fingerprints am i wrong? just wondering I'd have to go back to WR, but I thought he said that his bone structure wasn't human not that he didn't have any bones. I'll check and get back to you on this. LSS
By Fraz 10-09-2000, 08:07 PM
Good point MaxandLizforever! I forgot that was the reason. One last thing I forgot in my last post. This is a question. THe reason they could not save Nasado was because it appeared that the pentagram device that Brody has not that one but one just like it was burned into Nasado chest when Max tried to heal Nasado and could not I thought that must put some kind of power that the Royal 4 cant overcome? Cathi/Fraz MOB1
By Tweety 10-09-2000, 08:07 PM
quote:Originally posted
By LSS: Did you notice there were no bones? I wonder why since he was supposed to have bones![/B] I didn't think that Nasedo had a bone structure that is why he could shapeshift and not get through the special security at Eagle Rock. I know he had to have something to give his body a frame maybe it was all cartilage (sp?) and that would be easier to disentigrate. Maybe?
By LSS 10-09-2000, 08:11 PM
Folks--he has a bone structure but it isn't human...here is the quote from The White Room: NASEDO: I can shape-shift into any of these agents: take their form, even their fingerprints. That’s why they added the X-ray scanner. My bone structure is far from human. I can change my appearance, but not what’s on the inside. Your bone structure, on the other hand, is one hundred percent human.
By ROSWELLMOM 10-09-2000, 08:11 PM
Let me start off
By saying that I thought this episode flowed so much better then last week's eppy. Ron Moore did an excellent job. Okay, Courtney as a skin? This surprised me. I knew there was something not quite right about her, now I know why. I think there are more then one skin, IMO. New Powers - I think that they all are probably working on their powers. They have no idea what they are up against and know that their skills will need to improve if they are going to be any match to their enemies. And as far as Tess healing Max, well, we know Max can heal, Michael can (remember how he healed Riverdog's ankle) and now Tess. It may be more of to what extent can they heal - can they all heal superficial wounds and only Max can bring back from the brink of death?
The Alien Device - The whole Brody thing was a little fishy to me. His story did sound plausible enough, but the more I think about this the more I question it. It seems a little too easy. How did he come about that particular alien device? I don't know, maybe he going to more of an ally - with all of his equipement. I'm going to have to think about this one. The Congresswoman just bugs me. I do not think she is all she seems to be. Did you see the way she said "Tess" after Liz left the office. She appeared to be pumping Liz for info
By pretending to be drunk and in emotional despair from her breakup with Pierce. I think this was all a ploy to get Liz to let her guard down and give her (Congresswomen) the info she was wanting. Well, that's all for now. I'm curious to see what the rest of you guys think.
By katie-scarlett 10-09-2000, 08:12 PM
Hi guys I've never posted on a sci fi thread before (you guys are just so smart), but thought I would put my two cents in anyway. I thought it was kinda strange of Max to go running down the street, shirtless and full of blood after Nasedo died. I thought the pod squad were supposed to lay low. Max's orders. So why go careening down the main street of Roswell, bumping into many people in the process, and pretty much attracting a whole lot attention (specially in a small town.)to himself? Plus dead alien in his room? Hello parents? Maybe popping in?
I think it would have been more prudent to just call the gang over from his house. Nobody would have seen him all bloody, no danger of his parents unexpectedly walking into his room ( I know Roswell parents dont but mine do LOL, and it could probably have been alot safer than running around at night alone. Who knows where the Skins could have been ? Also since Nasedo last season seemingly couldnt be killed (not By a bullet anyway), what could the Skins have done to him that would do him in like that? And the turned to dust thing. Is that the way he dies no matter how he is killed, or does it have to do with the skins? Also is Courtney the only Skin?
Maybe whoever is following Max is another member of the breed, or some other species all together? Ok I think I'm done for now. Hope I dont sound so very stupid
By LSS 10-09-2000, 08:19 PM
katie-scarlett: Welcome to the SF threads! And you are right to note that it is extremely out of character for Max to do that (especially half-clad). Even with the death of Harding, I would have thought he would not draw so much attention to himself. I was one of those folks who were lucky to be at Covina when that shot was filmed. I think that everyone was so smitten with the shirtless Max that the question never arose. But on the film it did seem a bit strange didn't it? LSS
By Kaylan 10-09-2000, 08:33 PM
"Nasedo taught me memory revival techniques" So does that mean that "alien essence" comes with memories too. I wish they would explain exactly what alien essence is. I mean is it genetic material or is it a soul? Anyway if what T*** said about being able to remember is true does that mean that everyone else will start having memories. and what did she mean when she said Images. Was she talking about images of little green Max loving a little green T***? THis,like everything else T*** says, sounds like bull... Well, you know what I mean. Oh and did anyone else notice that the pod squad excluded T*** out of all of their meetings. Kaylan And I've got to say that Maria was absolutely charming in this episode!
By Live&LetLive 10-09-2000, 08:50 PM
RoswellMom, I'm very glad to know someone else thought brody's story was fishy. For the first few sentences, I was thinking it made sense. But the whole "I just bought this from some UFo guy and it lit up on the 14," part. Just sounded really fake. Like there is really some guy out there that found a communicator(which is a long word, so I'll just call it the cosmic pager) laying around and desided he wanted to get rid of it. This guy know way more than he's letting on. I wasn't happy that they didn't go into more detail about that thing Max did where he made the air blue and oily looking. It seemed weird. It happens once at school, and suddenly he know how to do it. And I have to say I was not please with his doing it. It scared me a little the way he just manipulated his friends so they'd do what he wanted. I think Whittaker is human. She seems like she's the season 2 version of Pierce.
Wanting to know the truth. I think the reason she wanted to know about Tess, is because she already knows about Max. I think Pierce(real Pierce) told her everything about Max. And she also knew there were others, and possibly suspected Tess. And she wanted to know if she was right. Courtney seems to be made up only of of recycled first season charactors personality. I may be just jaded, but watching her I feel like been there, done that. So I'd analize her. But she isn't deep enough to do that with. The only layers that girl has, are her layers of skin. I'm stumped as to why the cosmic pager didn't go off for all of them. Since the thing is a way for the bad ETs to track the bad ETs, it seems like it would do that for all of them. My guess is that there is something differant about Michael. Something no one knows, not even him. And I don't mean that he's evil. No, if he was, they baddies would not be hunting him. But I think it is something, and that hopefully that differance will be explored.
By Kaylan 10-09-2000, 08:55 PM
Quote from LovelyDayDreams quote:Also, what was with the skin left on the bush
By Tess's house. I know they shed their skins, but from the looks of Courtney it takes some effort to get it off. What did the Skin just take off out her back door then stop
By the bush to peel off a piece of skin then continue on his/her merry way? This was on another thread but I posted it here because I remember last weeks discussion about whether or not the skins were leaving a calling card. I think now it's obvious that they are baiting the pod squad. Kaylan
By Melodious1 10-09-2000, 09:16 PM
quote:Originally posted
By LSS: 4) MEMORY RETRIEVAL. Folks, this is something (as a dreamer) I've always been worried about. Tess says she "remembers" some things about the home planet because Harding taught her some memory retrieval techniques. What if Max can "remember" that he loved Tess? Then again, did it strike you as strange that Max never "followed up" when Tess said she DID remember things about the ole' home planet? Unfortunately I can't stay on here long (too much d*mn homework that I neglected to do in the weekend, now I'm paying for it!!). There's just ONE thing I need to get off my chest before I can do anything... did anyone else think it's just a TAD odd that Tess didn't bring up these supposed memories and/or this supposed memory retrieval process until now? I'd think this should have been one of the first things she'd tell Max and/or the podsters? Especially if it meant him loving her again (and Mike loving Isabel). Why did she wait so long?? You'd think *remembering* would help the podsters in leaps and bounds to fulfill (or want them to fulfill) this supposed "destiny"... it's what Tess wants isn't it?? The girl is hiding something I tell you! I just haven't put my finger on what yet (although, it wouldn't surprise me if it had something to do with Max NOT loving her in the former life... if she was indeed part of his former life in the first place)! Melodious
By October 10-09-2000, 09:22 PM
I don't usually post here either, but always read with interest. I was struck
By the difference in how Nacedo died, as opposed to Michael's near-death in The Balance. Michael, who is part/most human spun a cocoon/web as he was dying. Nacedo did not exhibit any of this-rather he disintegrated into dust, somewhat like the death vampires are shown to do in movies and BTVS after being staked. Perhaps, since Nacedo died violently, and not due to sickness, he did not have time to spin the web, as Michael did, and his disintegration resulted because he was not in a cocoon...
By wildpete 10-09-2000, 09:52 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Reggie: AND WHAT WAS THAT EYEBALL !!! OK, we see a montage of important people getting killed or hurt. Liz, Pierce, Hubble, Max (WR). Was that eyeball from someone else getting killed? That's what I want to know too. I had to slo mo it to check it out. Can't really tell what it is. It almost looks like a skinned animal head or something. Anybody got a theory? BTW first time poster on Sci-Fi thread. You guys always think of stuff I hadn't even considered. Love reading this thread! And ITA LSS. During those shirtless scenes in Covina who gave a darn why they were shooting em--just that they were! KC MOB2 P.S. Can I just say that this episode totally ROCKED!!!!!!
By Starkiller 10-09-2000, 10:04 PM
YAY! Been waiting for this thread. Always love observations. I do still wonder how I should grasp just how much of their old selves is left. Did they lose their memory, but retain their inherant personality? Max's new power should be interesting, it's unfortunate that it's such a dead give away that there's something wrong if he uses it. It's big, green, glowing, and right in your face.
By shimi 10-09-2000, 10:20 PM
this ep was so much better. yay! tess' memories.... i'm not sure why she didnt bring it up before either, but that doesnt mean she's lying, she sounded more vulnerable and truthful here. its a sucky position she's in. still, memory retrieval sounds like a more useful skill than rock-busting... maria... she does have a knack for sounding out people, but right now it seems more territorial and jealous than anything else. brody's explanation for the device... it did seem a little tortured. but that never made sense to me from Sexual Healing anyway.
By Roswelynn 10-09-2000, 10:32 PM
October, I believe that the reason Nasado died that way is because he is a true alien not, a hybid(cloan & human DNA.) Maybe that's why they die differently than Nasado. As for, the thing not going off when Max came in the room I have no idea!!! Maybe Max & Michael are somewhat different? I think that the congresswoman is a skin!!! I noticed that when Liz left the room that she started acting all wiggy about Tess & I go what are you insane or an alien? So , maybe she is a skin. I for one vote that either Liz or Maria be aliens it would be kind of neat since, everyone thinks that Tess is Max's intended but, what if Liz is? As for Maria, her father left when she was young maybe, that's because he had to. I also, love that Kyle & Tess hit it off well now she has someone new to torture!!! About the powers thing I love the new power that Max can do. I was reading one of the books the other day, & in the books they can teleport from one place to another wouldn't it be cool if they could do that? Ok, I'll stop babbling for now. Proud member of the DREAMGIRLS!!!
By Elmindreda 10-09-2000, 10:41 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted
By ROSWELLMOM: <<And as far as Tess healing Max, well, we know Max can heal, Michael can (remember how he healed Riverdog's ankle) and now Tess. It may be more of to what extent can they heal - can they all heal superficial wounds and only Max can bring back from the brink of death? >> Actually, I think they all can heal. I'd have to watch it again to make sure, but way back in "Leaving Normal," Isabel sees Max's face after Kyle's buddies have beat him up, and she offers to heal his bruises for him, but he says no. But I do think it's possible that they all have their own specialties, and perhaps one of Max's specialties is healing, and so he is stronger in that power. Maybe Tess, Isabel, and Michael can only heal superficial wounds. Just MHO.
By Palomino 10-09-2000, 10:57 PM
Thank goodness for a better episode than last week! I was really getting scared. Could the turning to dust of Nasedo be due to the weapon that killed him rather than his own alieness?. Could a human be turned to dust also if killed in the same manner? When Reggie and I watched the episode, I noticed something odd in Max's flashes of violent scenes as he prepared to kill. When I slow motioned it later, we saw a wierd alien eye on part of an alien face. After pausing on it a long time, and more than once, I wondered if this was also a scene of violence from his memory - only his alien memory. Could it have been one of the others lying dead, perhaps his last sight as he died? When Tess told him about the memory retrieval, maybe he was desperate enough to try it, in an effort to gain the ability to lead from his former self.
By LilGreenKitten 10-09-2000, 11:35 PM
I just loved all your comments and theories. Makes watching Roswell even better. Thanks for making my wheels turn! A few comments: Brody Not sure where I stand on this guy. Yea his story seemed convenient, especially the whole buying the communicator line. But if this weren't truly his story, I would think he would have faltered or at least flinched at some point when Max was questioning him. The writers seem to make it pretty obvious when something ain't right!! At least now we know where the human DNA came from to make the Pod Squad hybrids~Abductions!! Pure Aliens vs. Hybrids I am really confused as to how the pre-hybrid Pod-Squad could "love" back on their home planet?!? How many times did we have to hear Nasedo and even Pierce say that emotions are a weakness and that Max's problem isn't thae he's part alien, it's that he's part HUMAN.
How could Tess remember a better past when Max loved her? Why would they need emotions back home if they are such a weakness. This has been bugging me since the Mom-o-gram. I just dismissed it as the easiest way to be able to communicate this intense message to the Royal 4 so they could understand-sugar coat it with happy family stuff. Remember she said that their alien essence was mixed with Human DNA so that they may fight the enemy on earth and free the home planet. there should have been no need or sign of human emotions bakc home. What do you guys think? Budhist Undertones this isnt so much Sci-Fi as it is philosophical or religious. I think it's interesting that Kyle has found Budhism as a way to find guidance and purpose for his life and introducing it to the story line. I think there is a loose connection to budhism and the Skins vs. Pod Squad war. Our aliens were warned that they would be able to recognize the enemy "only
By the evil within". Hate and anger could be considered an evil attribute. The Dalai Lama says this in the "Art of Happiness"- "..when a very strong or forceful thought of hatred arises within you, at that very instant, it totally overwhelms you and destroys your peace of mind; your presence of mind disappears completely....it obliterates the best part of your brain, which is the ability to judge between right and wrong, and the long-term and short-term consequences of your actions...hatred is comapred to an enemy. It is our true enemy, our ultimate enemy. It has no other function than to simply destroying us..so
By realizing this fact, we should resolve that we will never give an opportunity for this enemy, hatred, to arise within us.." Kind of funny that Nasedo sarcastically called Max the Pacifist king. Also makes me think that Max did the right thing in stopping Is and Michael for flying off the handle and killing Brody right away. Who knows what kind of trouble that would've dug up. So far, the pod squad hasn't wanted to willingly kill anyone, just defend themselves , therefore taking the higher ground. Any thoughts? I'm really starting to enjoy this thread. Sandra
By alex188 10-09-2000, 11:45 PM
quote:Originally posted
By plumeria: My own questions: [b]Do you think Brody really WAS abducted
By aliens? Why?
By "good" or "evil" aliens? Who sold him the device? [/B] For some strange reasons, I am still suspicious of Brody. Why would the aliens cure him of cancer? Even if it was a good alien...still, how come? I think the person who sold the device to him thought it was some cheap thing cuz it has never been activated then. Maybe?
By Kate6058 10-10-2000, 12:54 AM
I loved this episode! What an improvement over last week... there was so much about Ask Not that referred to the things from last season that we're missing now... flashbacks of the Pilot and The Convention, Liz and Maria being buds, the "follow your heart" theme... it felt like things had somewhat of a softer tone tonight. I even have to admit, this was the first time ever that I enjoyed a scene of Tess'. Emilie and Nick worked so well together! And, as usual, Jason Behr was the highlight of the episode for me. This man can't get any better... he can make me feel all of Max's pain just
By looking into his eyes! sigh. Anyway.... On the specifics of healing... do they really have a specific "healing" power, or is it that they simply move around molecules? I thought that was the basis of their powers (i.e. the reason they could repair gunshot wounds, melt cheese, change ketchup from red to orange) I think that is where the healing power comes from, so naturally they'd all be able to "heal." But what is it about them that makes them different? Max now has this power to put up force fields, Isabel dream walks, Tess mind warps, Michael apparently explodes things (and people) with blasts of energy... maybe this is connected somehow to whatever it was that made that orb thingy of Brody's sense Michael and not Max. I have no idea what it could be... I'm just trying to make a connection. Nasedo's death: The skins must have some kind of device or way of killing our aliens' race, because if they had just killed Nasedo's body, MM&I could have brought him back, just like last time. Maybe it's like kryptonite? Nasdeo obviously knew what was coming for him when he found the skin
By his car... he's never been afraid of anyone till then, so he probably could have died even if he had morphed into the brick wall behind him in the alley. I thought it seemed like the healing stones couldn't work in the presence of whatever had killed Nasedo, not that their power just couldn't bring him back. Max/Michael/the "fearless leader" conflict: I don't like how we suddenly have this solid structure set up between MM&I... last season, it was obvious that Max was the one in control, and that was okay, but now it's like, "I make the decisions here" and Isabel and Tess are constantly saying, "Max is the leader, we have to listen to Max," as if we don't already know that that's what the destiny is supposed to be... they keep reminding us of it every five seconds. These are still high school kids... the way they phrase everything just seems off... does anyone understand what I'm saying? I guess that after the white room incident and everything that happened at the end of Destiny, they've gotten a bit more tough, but I just think there was too much of a jump. In Michael's case, especially... he doesn't seem to have much of a personality any longer. I'm hoping we work out of this as the season moves on... it was worse in Skin and Bones, but this week definitely had more of a human quality. I'm hoping for more fun in Surprise
By clarinetkate 10-10-2000, 01:41 AM
LOVED this ep. Go Ron Moore, we love ya. A thought about Courtney: Did anyone else think it was WAY WEIRD the way she was talking to Michael about PIERCings? I'll have to watch again, but at the time I remember thinking, what the heck are they talking about, it was SUCH a nonsequittor... After she took off her skin it hit me.. Piercings.. PIERCE... either she KNOWS about Pierce or she IS Pierce (a shapeshifted version). I am still clinging to the Pierce is an evil alien theory, and this fits nicely with that. I am convinced Courtney was dropping some sort of hint to Michael.. what do you guys think?? Whitaker. Still convinced she's an evil alien. If she knew about The Royal Four, then Liz completely tipped her hand
By what little she said. Let's assume Whittaker already knows Max is an alien, hearing that there is an obstacle that is a girl from Max's past would send off triggers and bells to her, she's found another member of the Royal Four. So far, we've only seen skinivision when observing a podster that it is fairly obvious they are of Royal blood (Michael was at crime scene, and Max well duh, everyone and his mothers brother knows Max is an alien).. of course then WHO was at Tess' house (is the break in before or after Liz reveals Tess to Whittaker?) RE: Tess' healing Max... I was under the impression that they could all do minor surface wounds, perhaps Max is the only one who can do major stuff, but making a scratch and bump go away seems like childsplay for someone who can resurrect a statue.. and what was the statue of again, why do I think it had something to do with Buddha? That's all for now, but just again, I loved this ep cause it was the marriage between sci-fi/action and relationships/character development we've all been waiting for, kudos to Ron Moore. --KATE
By jenlev 10-10-2000, 03:41 AM
hi there, palomino: great point about the eyeball shot during max's flashback being a memory from the shapeshifter essense. i'm understanding that flashback as a reflection of the impact of the trauma he experienced; so it makes sense that some OTHER traumatic memory my leak through in that moment when he was completely stressed
By the decision he was making. and at moments of great stress flashbacks are often triggered for trauma survivors. also: given the degree of how max had walled off the whole destiny issue (and trauma experience?) in 'skin & bones', his respone to nasedo's death was not such a surprise. when someone is so completely over-controlled, and this cracks, it tends to crack in a big way. and nasedo's death was his worse nightmare in so many ways. it meant that he no longer had someone to look to who could explain things(even if he didn't like the answers). it also meant that his dream of a normal life was essentially over- at least for now. and that the people and podsters he loves and relys on are at risk. combine this with the pattern repetition of violence (see the white room) he could easily have become totally discombobulated.(to put it in clinical terms. ) jenlev ps. just an another thought... the scene of max running portrayed the depth of despair and terror that max had been and was experiencing... and it's interesting as a metaphor for what he has expressed the wish to do....run away from the whole thing
By Miss Roswell 10-10-2000, 04:18 AM
I'm not too sure about this episode but oh well, I want to say something... Did anyone else notice that the pod squad didn't include Tess on anything that they were planning. I thought that was sort of weird. I agree, that if I was in love with someone and I can remember, I think I would be telling him that I remember those memories.
By plumeria 10-10-2000, 04:40 AM
quote:Originally posted
By clarinetkate: A thought about Courtney: Did anyone else think it was WAY WEIRD the way she was talking to Michael about PIERCings? I'll have to watch again, but at the time I remember thinking, what the heck are they talking about, it was SUCH a nonsequittor... After she took off her skin it hit me.. Piercings.. PIERCE... either she KNOWS about Pierce or she IS Pierce (a shapeshifted version). I am still clinging to the Pierce is an evil alien theory, and this fits nicely with that. I am convinced Courtney was dropping some sort of hint to Michael.. what do you guys think?? I, too, thought that Courtney was making some sort of hint with her comments to Michael. My first thought was that it had to do with Pierce. But I'm not so sure. My next thought was it had to do with battle -- like a vampire with a stake through his heart? Haven't quite figured this out yet... And did you notice at the end of this exchange, Michael thrusts a toothpick (piercing) into the sandwich he just served up? I see I'm going to have to reconsider Brody again. I thought the explanation was convenient, but plausible. Hmmm. Still, he did seem pretty clueless when the device went off (when Michael was trying to steal it). Still wondering where Brody got the device. Or rather, wondering where the salesman he bought it from (if that story is true) got the device. What alien would just leave those lying around to be picked up By salesmen?!
By dunraven 10-10-2000, 06:07 AM
Really liked this episode - RM rocks my world! As for the new powers - they are probably going to discover them in times of stress - remember Michael with the distracting light beam and the killer ray in Destiny? They are like babies who are discovering their feet. I don’t think that Tess healed Max so much as calmed him. He wasn’t physically hurt . Question about the device - when it is a homing device it probably doesn’t have to be held. Brody said that in May it just started working. I got the impression that it was just part of a collection at that time and he observed the activation. As a weapon, the device is a little more interesting. Perhaps it didn’t effect Max because:
I too have been afraid of the memory retrieval. I think that its gratifying that Max didn’t take her up on the offer for instruction in the technique. As he said, human is all he has ever known. He really is a reluctant leader. Was really glad that Harding discenegrated upon death. The pod squad have a really bad time disposing of bodies. How were they going to explain a body in the bedroom? But as he discingrated and the skins, when they are shed discingrated, does this mean that they are one species and the same. I was never clear if the war on the home planet was a civil war or an act of another planet’s/species’ aggression? Also, agree with October’s question - Why didn’t Nasedo cocoon? Does it mean that there are physical differences among the species themselves or was it because the pod squad are hybrids? One last thing - the reason why they couldn’t save Nasedo was because he had been killed
By an alien. Obviously, they know how to do that. Max couldn’t bring him back because as he said in Leaving Normal - he’s not God. I lied - one last last thing - As for the question of skins - I figured Courtney and I think that Brody is just a abductee like he said but I’m truly confused
By the Congresswoman. If she is a skin, why go through all the trouble to expose the aliens through the special unit, wouldn’t she just kill them? Is it really necessary to discredit them first? I like the introduction of Buddhism as long as it doesn’t turn into one big “ You learn well, Little Grasshopper” joke! Later - works got the sniffers out!
By bluecornmoon 10-10-2000, 07:10 AM
I always remember what Jeff Parker said to Max in ITW: "What do you have that makes people do whatever you want?" It was so out of context that, to me, it's one of the hints that tells us who and what Max is. A king who has the charisma to lead entire planets/galaxies. Could that be why the pentagram didn't turn on him? That although everybody else is expendable, the Skins may want Max alive for whatever nefarious purposes and his signature is not imprinted in the weapon(?). Either that or Max and Michael are truly different (2 different races against the evil one). I really thought Nacero's death was a dream... oh, well, it teaches me not to read something into every single detail... I didn't mind Brody, I think he is what he says he is.
If Whittaker is not a Skin, then I don't know anything about evil aliens! I was dissapointed with the Max/Liz moments. I got more out of the scene last week than what happened in Ask Not. And if Liz continues in this I'm-cool mode, I'm going to shake her!! She better be up to something because this doesn't sound or look like the Liz we all know, who loves Max above all else!! ... if at least she would steal a glance, I would feel better.... When is next Monday?
By O2BLiz 10-10-2000, 08:06 AM
I have lurked on this thread for awhile and well i just wanted to make a comment..lol and i am sure i am totally off but this is my take on the Whittaker and Liz conversation. I am not even sure if i am to post it here.. oh well Whittaker and Liz convo.:
MHO Well I just wanted to say that.. thanks
By LSS 10-10-2000, 08:25 AM
Bluecornmoon and dunraven: I find intriguing your arguments about Max having a different physical signature than Michael (and perhaps other aliens). I think there are primarily THREE categories of explanation as to why Max did not activate the device:
SF stories have played around with royality/aristocracts having differente genetic profiles. I tend to think however, that this type of plot element is a bit too exotic (SF wise) for our Roswell. But it would be an interesting direction to take, I agree. As for the identity of Brody and the congresswoman. All of you know that I tend to be conservative when extrapolating from the known (dialogue/visuals) to the unknown (mere speculation)....but I'll go ahead (at least on this thread) and take the plunge here. I think Brody is who he says he is. Actually, he is like Milton in several ways. That is, he offers up possibilities of comic relief like Milton. I thought that scene with Max was cute. Okay--let's go way off the wall here (especially since Milton is a ss in the books) -- wouldn't be interesting (but I don't think this is where the writers are heading...let's be clear on that!) if Milton is a ss and for some reason thought it best to change identites? NO.
I don't think that is what is happening, but I think it would be interesting. I liked Milton. As for the congresswoman, I don't know. That one frame sent chills up my spine. But up till that point, I didn't think she was other that the "woman used then scorned" type. Kind of hard to think that Pierce could screw her and still not notice flakes of skin in the bed don't you think? (I know, I know, we don't know how often skins shed/molt/whatever...but still...Courtney has always acted a bit odd to me...but not so the congresswoman). But I've got to say--that one frame might have made up for a lot of lost time! LSS
By ROSWELLMOM 10-10-2000, 08:32 AM
Alright, I have continued to read what the rest of you thought about last night's eppy and have one more thing to add. Nasedo - I do not find it difficult to believe that he was killed. It is obvious to me that he can be killed
By other aliens and not necessarily
By humans. I mean, he never showed fear for his demise except when he saw "the skin". When that happened he was very shooken up - scared even. I think he was scared because he knew these Skins could really do something to him. And, they did. Also, with the way he disintergated into dust, well, that must be they way their race dies. Humans turn to dust too - eventually - they (the Skins) just do it quicker. One last thing, with Nasedo dead now, the Podsters will really have to band together because they are all they have. It should be interesting to see how they track down more info of who they are and where they came from.
By shapeshifter 10-10-2000, 09:43 AM
quote:Originally posted
By clarinetkate: ...A thought about Courtney: Did anyone else think it was WAY WEIRD the way she was talking to Michael about PIERCings? I'll have to watch again, but at the time I remember thinking, what the heck are they talking about, it was SUCH a nonsequittor... After she took off her skin it hit me.. Piercings.. PIERCE... either she KNOWS about Pierce or she IS Pierce (a shapeshifted version). I am still clinging to the Pierce is an evil alien theory, and this fits nicely with that. I am convinced Courtney was dropping some sort of hint to Michael.. what do you guys think?? If she IS Pierce, then whose body did they burn? Or do Skins not have bodies of their own? Thinking of Mommo's "know them
By the evil within," within their skins? And do we know that the Skins are really the Bad Guys? Nasedo was a pretty cold-blooded (um, emotionally) killer. But if Pierce was/is a Skin, then he was one evil Skin. But I'd love to see more of him... MissRoswell, "Did anyone else notice that the pod squad didn't include Tess on anything that they were planning. I thought that was sort of weird." Yea, I thought they could've used her concealer power. But then Max did okay on his own. But this power trip he's on seems a little off somehow. Re the effects of the alien beeper: Over on Liz/mythology I posted last night (dovetailing Qfanny's alliance theory) that maybe Tess & Michael have Skin essences and Max & Iz have Shapeshifer essences. One last thing: THE MAX Line: I'm coming for you. JB did his best to downplay a potentially hoky line. Does this mean his REAL mission was to get Liz, his Destined Bride?
By LSS 10-10-2000, 11:01 AM
quote:Originally posted
By ROSWELLMOM: Also, with the way he disintergated into dust, well, that must be they way their race dies. Humans turn to dust too - eventually - they (the Skins) just do it quicker. Hi Roswellmom! You bring up an interesting point. Perhaps we are just talking about VERY accelerated entropy here! BUT you do seem to confuse Nesedo/Harding with the "skins" (your last sentence juxtaposed with your former ones about Harding). I know that some folk think that Harding = an evil alien, but we do not know if he is a skin or not. Personally, I don't think he is. (BTW that doesn't invalidate those who think he was evil...it just means that I don't think he was an evil "skin"). Why don't I think he was a skin? Firstly, we are given no narrative clues to that effect (shed sking/odd vision). Secondly, Harding warns Max of the skins and refers to them in the third person address. Of course he could be fabricating...but I tend to believe him on this one.
By LSS 10-10-2000, 11:11 AM
quote:Originally posted
By shapeshifter: JB did his best to downplay a potentially hoky line. Does this mean his REAL mission was to get Liz, his Destined Bride? Hi shapeshifter: You know that I am a dreamer down to my bone marrow cells. And I can imagine that sighs went up across the nation in dreamer land when Max said that. Damn, I knew the lines beforehand and was waiting with baited breath to hear them. But I've got to say that the whole speech was absolutely jarring when you take it in context. The whole eppy was structured around "ask not" and dovetailed with Max learning to be a leader. Pardon me if when he proclaims that nothing is more important than Liz if I felt like knocking on wood or something. All I could think of was that he might have to pay for that comment. Would you want a leader like that? I wouldn't. And the whole point of the JFK thing was to underscore that sometimes the many outweigh the needs of the one...that sometimes public has precedence over private and that is what leadership (esp. kingly leadership BTW) is all about. LSS
By cindylouwho 10-10-2000, 11:19 AM
Hi, I've been lurking on this wonderful thread for at least 8 months. Everyone always has such great ideas. So here goes, what if the healing of Harding was not successful because this was the only time Liz was not present when they used the healing stones? I also agree that Liz has her own agenda. I think she feels responsible for what has happened to Max and the gang. After hearing the mom-o-gram, she decided to do what she could do alone without involving them further. The Congresswoman is not what she seems, I'd have to guess that Pierce had given her all the information he had on the Podsters, or what he suspected at the time. That's it for now.
By LSS 10-10-2000, 11:38 AM
quote:Originally posted
By cindylouwho: Hi, I've been lurking on this wonderful thread for at least 8 months. Everyone always has such great ideas. So here goes, what if the healing of Harding was not successful because this was the only time Liz was not present when they used the healing stones? Welcome to the SF threads as a poster!!! And your observation above is really nice! I am going to copy it to the Liz/Mythology thread so that they can share in your observation. Well done! LSS
By MovieImp 10-10-2000, 11:56 AM
A couple of questions about the Congresswoman and yes she drives me to distraction. Isn't Congress in session now and shouldn't she be in Washington? I'm not sure of the timing right now since the kids are just now back in school, so it may be out of session in Roswell time. But does that mean she will leave soon? Secondly, every Congress person I've seen has lots and lots of staffers. Why does a Congresswoman only have one staff person (Liz) and that staffer is a high school kid? Every time I see this woman things just drive me nuts about her. Last week it was saying she had the authority to intervene, this week it's just strange, and the whole office set up is just out of the ordinary. Maybe that's the point I'm missing. ~The Imp
By NewMex_sky 10-10-2000, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted
By plumeria: [B] I, too, thought that Courtney was making some sort of hint with her comments to Michael. My first thought was that it had to do with Pierce. Just my two cents: I do not believe we have seen the last of "Pierce". I get the impression that "Courtney" is sending warning signals to Michael--kinda like--"I'm coming for you, and you're not gonna like it". Maria may be acting territorial, or maybe she's sensing something, a threat of another kind, on a deeper plane. 2 more cents: Maybe Brody is working for aliens that saved him and they gave him the device. Maybe they saved him and convinced him that the "others" are the truly bad aliens. Or maybe they implanted that in his memory (selectively). Just a random thought.
By Palomino 10-10-2000, 12:41 PM
Originally posted
By LSS : The whole eppy was structured around "ask not" and dovetailed with Max learning to be a leader. Pardon me if when he proclaims that nothing is more important than Liz if I felt like knocking on wood or something. All I could think of was that he might have to pay for that comment. Would you want a leader like that? I wouldn't. And the whole point of the JFK thing was to underscore that sometimes the many outweigh the needs of the one...that sometimes public has precedence over private and that is what leadership (esp. kingly leadership BTW) is all about.
When Max said this to her, I was taken aback. This does not seem like the self-sacrifice of a leader. It made me wonder if the evil skins have somehow arranged the Liz/Max relationship to criple his leadership abilities. Could it have been good guys that tried to kill Liz in the beginning? What if the pilot really did have two people trying to kill Liz? Why didn't they ever come back to finish the job? If they were trying to distract Max and ruin his desire to lead and serve his people, why go about it so odly? why not kill him also? So many unanswered questions, and so few SSers to answer them. I'll miss poor old Nasedo. if tic-tac shows up, could he step into Harding's role?
By shortstuff 10-10-2000, 01:08 PM
Miss roswell, i too did not understand why they would not include Tess in their plans, and only came with that when all is said and done in their mind there is the three of them. Now i would like to say a word about Tess. Tess has been told her whole life that Max is to be her soul mate, and as aliented (no pun intended) as she felt on Earth, there was someone out there for her. As much as she wants to ignore her human side she has hurts and feelings just as Max, Izzy, and Micheal do. Judging
By nasdo's thought on feelings, he more than likely told Tess to surpress hers. Now do i belive she really loves Max. No, she does not even know him. She only knows the story she was told, and a montage of feelings that aren't really her own. In other words, Tess is a frighten girl who has discovered that life does not always follow the perfect plan. That's why i hope that the relashinship with Kyle develops. Hey i like Tess, but i still want Liz with Max.
By Danilise 10-10-2000, 01:11 PM
Regarding Max's speech at the end of "Ask Not" -- I agree that it was an interesting, thought-provoking thing for Max to say, particularly since he is finally beginning to exert his leadership ability. I found myself thinking of something another leader said. Winston Churchill said three things that I always remember: "The price of greatness is responsibility." "It is a mistake to look too far ahead. Only one link in the chain of destiny can be handled at a time." "My most brilliant achievement was my ability to be able to persuade my wife to marry me." That last one reminded me of Max. Or vice versa. ... Dani (aka Danilise)
By LSS 10-10-2000, 02:19 PM
Hi Dani! About that quote from WC--I agree. But WC was both husband and statesman. I guess Max's words seemed (to me) to tread too lightly on the statesman side. As I said last week in the SF review--the private/public dichotomy in Max's life seems to be a key theme in this season. Ideally Liz might hopefullt be the vehicle that pulls both of these arenas of activity together. Perhaps that is coming. Right now, Max can't seem to pull them together. And those last words of his reminds me of his game of pretend that he tried to play with Liz in Skin and Bones. "King" Max is going to have to reconcile his roles as leader and lover. Poor Max. But if the writers can pull it off--we'll have a Happy Max indeed!!!! LSS P.S. Once again, let me voice how much I love your fanfic writing!!!
By King Grinch 10-10-2000, 02:31 PM
The Congresswoman might know Nasedo from his work with the military. That might be why she might know the name Tess. As far as her staff goes. It might be back in DC at her main office. Liz might just be an intern.
By Fraz 10-10-2000, 02:36 PM
Just one more thing on Brody and activating the device. It responded to Michael and not to Max. Just a thought perhaps it is kinda like Michael last season. Brody does not have the manual? The way Brody held it or perhpas the direction the different symbols make it do different things. What is this device capable of doing? We know it can pick up the beacon signal and now send out a blast that stuns and at this point does not kill. Also know that somehow when put against Nasados skin it left a burnt or charred mark on his chest? Just throwing this out there please ignore this post I may be way off base on this. Cathi/Fraz MOB1
By wildpete 10-10-2000, 02:58 PM
Sorry if this is out of place on this thread since no others have commented on it. That bloody alien head--if that's what it was--that was in Max's flash during the ascent on Brody at the UFO museum has been buggin me. I've begun to wonder if it may be a memory from the 47 crash? Or perhaps a memory from the war/conflict from their previous lives on their home planet? Maybe the later since Max is faced with the dilemma of whether or not to kill/murder. Perhaps a "flash" since he was in an "intense" circumstance. And we all know that's when they get flashes! LOL Very interesting that they inserted that short clip. I slo-moed it to see if I could tell what it was. Definitely not human! Did this not make anyone else curious? KC MOB2
By Danilise 10-10-2000, 03:55 PM
Excellent point, LSS, about Churchill's being both a husband and a statesman. I agree that Max is balancing on a highwire right now as he tries to figure out what he should be -- a leader or a lover. It's almost as if he's trying to figure out which way is better to fall (whether he realizes it or not). Personally, I'm pleased that Max is having as much trouble figuring this out as he is. After all, until last May 14, he was just a seventeen year old kid who thought himself -- believed himself -- in love with a girl. Then, after surviving torture and declaring himself to the girl in question, he found out he was a leader -- a beloved leader -- on whom an entire race depended. But he was -- is -- still just a seventeen year old. If I'm remembering right, Churchill was looking back on his lifetime of great leadership when he said, "My most brilliant achievement was my ability to be able to persuade my wife to marry me." Maybe Churchill was a confused seventeen year old too. ... Dani P.S. Thank you for your lovely postscript about my fanfic writing, LSS. I can't tell you how much I appreciate it!
By shapeshifter 10-10-2000, 04:15 PM
quote:Originally posted
By wildpete: ...That bloody alien head--if that's what it was--that was in Max's flash during the ascent on Brody at the UFO museum has been buggin me. I've begun to wonder if it may be a memory from the 47 crash? Or perhaps a memory from the war/conflict from their previous lives on their home planet? Maybe the later since Max is faced with the dilemma of whether or not to kill/murder. Perhaps a "flash" since he was in an "intense" circumstance. And we all know that's when they get flashes On another thread there is a picture of an eyeball, but I thought there were some more bloodNguts shots too. Anyway, maybe when they were killed in the conflict Max had been agressive with the enemy and now "knows" it would be better to use reason. BTW, I loved the line to Michael (in response to what if Brody kills Max) that then Michael gets to be Fearless Leader. And one more BTW, is "Fearless Leader" from Rocky & Bullwinkle? If so, who was FL? Boris Badanov?
By samson 10-10-2000, 04:21 PM
this is the second time i've posted, but i was wondering that when mommosgram said to look for the evil within, only liz seems to be able to do that. she seens to sence it. she saw the evil in nasedo when he kissed her and she said tess scares her. also when i look back at skin and bones....when max tells nasedo that no one gets killed, if you watch tess she looks like she stand at attention, like she was a servant or a soldier. also when she says to max "i won't let you down". it sounds funny! maybe she was liz's servant or something like that, and they sent her down with them. (like the did in the tombs)but somehow her and nasedo got the idea to change things around and say she was max's wife. it would be very easy for her to change the picture in the book. i also agree with the post before that said the stones might not work because she wasn't there. my last thought, how can they have lived on earth before,if they were sent down and in the pods?
By jenlev 10-10-2000, 04:34 PM
hi there, shapeshifter: regarding the "fearless leader comments" i wondered about the possible rocky and bullwinkle reference too, and also thought that it was a great sarcastic comment on the fact that all the charactors are struggling with varying degrees of terror. as all the other images shown when max and the others went to kill brody were a complilation of traumatic situations that max had been in; i'm thinking that the image of the alien face/eye was leakage from prior trauma that max's alien essence had experienced. and it seems to make sense that the post traumatic stress disorder flashback would combine with the hybrid "flash reception under stress" syndrome. jenlev ps. who gets to play moose and squirrel? , and do the podsters have to go to "whatsamatta u." after they finish highschool?
By Jamethiel 10-10-2000, 05:07 PM
I love reading the science fiction thread and look forward to lots of analysis of "Ask Not." I haven't noticed anyone posting this theory..but if they have, my apologies. What if the shapshifter aliens (Nasedo) are a sentient "collection" of entities?
By this, I'm referring to something similar to sea coral or a bee hive which we perceive as one singular entity but which is really made up of individual "parts." I raise this question for a reason. We have discussed why the shapeshifters chose "human" form for the podsters. What if being "bound" in one form like a human, saves the Royal Four from the usual alien attack? If you think about the way Nasedo turned to ash/disintegrated, it could that however he was attacked, disintegrated the bonds between his cell/entities. After all, Nasedo stressed previously that it was his appearance of a human body over its actual form that he was able to achieve. Anyway, I think Michael survived the "pulse" because he was in human form, but his alien cells cause him to be somewhat effected. I know we haven't directly linked the "pulsing" pentagram to Nasedo's death but I think the visual "star" on his chest points in that direction. It would stretch the imagination to be given two different weapons as representative of the evil aliens! Not that we haven't had to stretch our imaginations on many occasions with this wonderful show.
By LSS 10-10-2000, 05:13 PM
Hi Jamethiel! You have raised some very good points. We have long debated on this thread (indeed, as far back as the first hint that we have bioengineered forms) as to what advantages do hybrids have over shapeshifters. And we've had a host of answers. But since we've seen Harding "killed" I think your point is well taken. We know that humans are open to attack and death from shapeshifters (that silver palm print). But we haven't seen a skin kill a human yet. It will be interesting to see what happens if that does (yeah I know...we're morbid aren't we?). Good to see you posting! LSS
By Palomino 10-10-2000, 05:38 PM
Has anybody brought up that Max might have been able to detect the evil within? When Max was walking the halls, and we see him through the skin's eyes as he is being followed, Max senses it and seems to make sure that he is really feeling it before he takes action and tries to stalk the stalker. I thought this was pretty clear that he felt the menace, but he did not feel Courtney. Is it only when the Skins are in "danger mode", or is there another one besides Courtney, who is maybe only a spy and not physically threatening? I noticed when Brody held the alien penta-paperweight during the firing scene, he was holding it differently than when it zapped Michael. With Michael, Brody was holding it flat on the palm of his hand; with Max, he had been holding it perpendicularly
By the top and bottom surfaces, between his thumb and fingers. Could this have made a difference?
By cindylouwho 10-10-2000, 05:50 PM
I've been thinking about Michael and what happened at the UFO Center concernig the alien communicator/homing device. We know Michael's power is tied in with energy (the blast that killed Pierce, and how he stopped the car chasing Max and Liz) what if due to this power he gives off a high energy signal (like power lines) this could be part of a "warrior" profile. The alien communicator/homing device could be programed for this type of energy signature, resembling the pulse given off in Destiny. When Tess tells Max these are not "our" bodies, and talks of home, did anyone else feel that she intends to return "home" and not as she is now? Would this mean that their essence would be removed/unmixed from the human DNA?
By LSS 10-10-2000, 05:56 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Palomino: [b]Has anybody brought up that Max might have been able to detect the evil within? When Max was walking the halls, and we see him through the skin's eyes as he is being followed, Max senses it and seems to make sure that he is really feeling it before he takes action and tries to stalk the stalker. I thought this was pretty clear that he felt the menace, but he did not feel Courtney. Is it only when the Skins are in "danger mode", or is there another one besides Courtney, who is maybe only a spy and not physically threatening? I noticed when Brody held the alien penta-paperweight during the firing scene, he was holding it differently than when it zapped Michael. With Michael, Brody was holding it flat on the palm of his hand; with Max, he had been holding it perpendicularly
By the top and bottom surfaces, between his thumb and fingers. Could this have made a difference?[/B] Hi Palomino! I think it is fair to say that Max sensed being stalked. Since humans (at times) can sense this too (Special Forces folk develop this I'm told) I am not quite sure if Max's action qualifies as being able to sense a skin's presence in general. No one (as you note) seems to sense the threat Courtney presents. In fact the only ones who even acknowledge her presence much are Maria and Michael. But since there is an undertone of sexuality also present between these three (Mi/Ma/C)it is difficult to sort out what is really going on. As for the device...did you think it functioned as a weapon? Perhaps that pulse is the equivalent of an electrified fence to prevent the "wrong" aliens from getting too close. But we still come back to Max and the device. I think perhaps the easiest thing to assume is that it was deactivated when in its case. LSS
By Palomino 10-10-2000, 07:08 PM
LSS: I was referring to the fact that the device did not do anything when Max was standing with Brody. In the scene where Brody fired Max, he was holding it in his hand, but in a different position from when it zapped Michael.
By tinkrbell 10-10-2000, 07:13 PM
quote:Originally posted
By NewMex_sky: I get the impression that "Courtney" is sending warning signals to Michael--kinda like--"I'm coming for you, and you're not gonna like it". [/B] The more I think about that scene, the more I wonder if Courtney is trying to "recruit" Michael - bring him to the dark side so to speak. "It only hurts once." Considering Michael's emotional state he'd be an easy target. He hasn't exactly been Max's #1 fan lately. He says to Valenti "What if I'm not strong enough?" (S&B) But worse, what if he's not strong enough to resist? Enh, I'm upsetting myself.
By starcat 10-10-2000, 07:34 PM
Hello LSS - long time... I am once again (after I promised myself I wouldn't) riding the ups and downs of the M&L train...great ride BUT I 'sometimes' wish Roswell were a film that ended with the 2 heading off into the sunset ie. happily ever after....we can dream! 4) Memory retrieval - this whole scene perplexed me because Tess refers to herself as NOT being human and makes mention that she was taught not to get caught up in all "this" (refering to her human form). Nasedo makes it clear to Michael in WR that his powers are human (advanced) and we find that their bone structure is also every bit Human as well....so, we know they are hybrids who, after earth mission accomplished, will return home to a people that they do NOT RESEMBLE in any way thus the 4 would be stuck with each other and their children would be - 'red-necks' - ie. no one with their genetic traits (human) to procreate with other than themselves - and I make these comments also based on alien mom's words which told the 4 that she took this 'form' because it was one they would recognize....
THUS the alien form is DIFFERENT...not saying its green just different... Basically what I am getting @ is that Tess made it seem as though they could return to life as normal on 'their' planet - meaning the human form/situation was temporary...I believe she is deluding herself to think that they will 'blend' - they are part human and maybe were never intended to return 'home'- fight the good fight from earth and in the process make an ally out of the planet - it has been made clear that advanced human capabilities may be what allows the 4 to survive the skins - so it is quite conceivable to think that it is their 'humanness' that will allow them to save their planet of origin...and what better way to do so than to form a bond with one of earth's own - Liz...(thats IF you believe she is 100% human).
THE CONGRESSWOMAN - I think the name "Tess" may have triggered her memories of a pre-Nasedo Pierce (ie. before what she refers to as lies). Tess knew who Pierce was in MtoM so it is not unlikely that he had knowledge of Tess Harding and her father and hence spoke of them with the congresswoman - which might explain her reaction?? we'll see...I could be reaching. I would also like to address M1 - Did Max love Tess in his previous life??? how far reaching is Tess's mind warping ability - can she make Max see memories that are creations of her own mind? I'd like to believe the love is one-sided...lets hope. LSS - you commented on why Max never followed up on Tess's request to 'see' the past. I think he's probobly afraid of what he might find...Liz is like a light @ the end of his tunnel - what ever he goes through this love/bond seems to be his anchor. Ques: If he does take Tess up on 'remembering' what will he see?? the other form that Tess believes more important than the human one she takes now?? sooo many questions.... Max's Speech - These were the words of a man in love - trying to follow his heart and we all know that he may comprimise these words and Liz does and will understand - hence her stepping aside in the first place and her reaction/exit in Ask Not which seemed to be one of confusion - can Max have his cake and eat it too????
I think there is no reason why Max cannot fulfill his role as leader and follow his heart to Liz. This may mean Liz gets her passport stamped and hence follows her heart to another galaxy OR Max may riegn from earth - as I mentioned before - creating an alliance of sorts between the 2 planets/solar systems??? bluecornmoon: I also wanted to shake Liz from her cool persona in Ask Not BUT the girl is caught between what her heart tells her and what she sees - Tess, quotes of destiny, dying shapeshifters and Max as Leader/King - lets hope Maria reminds her of the advice her gram gave in a stellar ep LN - "follow your heart - trust it" - seems she has forgotten this....Max is going to have to wear her down. Shortstuff - I loved your Tess analysis - lets hope the Tess/Kyle thing blossoms. Dani - I also enjoy your fanfic... Palomino - love your posts BUT I hope you are WRONG about M&L - it would wound me beyond repair... I went to long but you all inspire me sooo much...GREAT THREAD> starcat.
By LSS 10-10-2000, 08:28 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Palomino: LSS: I was referring to the fact that the device did not do anything when Max was standing with Brody. In the scene where Brody fired Max, he was holding it in his hand, but in a different position from when it zapped Michael. Oh dear. You are right! I'd forgotten that earlier scene. Either you are right about the position or else....wait a minute....we don't know for sure that Michael activated the thingamabob do we? I mean...could Brody have accidently pushed something that caused that pulse to be sent? Or if I REALLY get my SF imagination churning...we could hypothesize that there is a soldier class on Max's planet that is DNA specific and Michael fits that profile (sure he is part of the royal four but only
By marriage). The device would then be keyed to recognize the DNA of that most dangerous class--the alien military. Sheesh...I warned you that I was imaginative. (I have a SF library of over 3,000 volumes of classic SF to the present.) No. Do not take seriously the above paragraph. But it does prove that serious SF folk usually expect these details to be cleared up. If we can catch them, they need to be dealt with! Palomino, your solution is as plausible as any I can think of! LSS
By HBear 10-10-2000, 08:28 PM
If you watch the scene where they are going to kill Brody, they flash on several images -- shootings mostly BUT there is one image in there that makes no sense. I paused on it to take a loot. It looks like one eye, blood, and maybe blond hair? What is it? Could it be a memory from Max's past life? It doesn't look like anything I remember from last season. Any ideas?
By HBear 10-10-2000, 08:30 PM
Oops! I paused to take a "look". My spelling is bad this late a night.
By shapeshifter 10-10-2000, 08:44 PM
Very kewl that we have Cindylouwho and King Grinch in the same thread. So if I say this ep reminds me of the Butter Battle, at least 2 of you will know what I mean. About the alien weapon: It hurt Michael's ribs. I am thinking of Nasedo's star shaped chest wound. What if instead of direct contact it emits a force? And now, back to the orbs...could they control the beepers? I have an old post on the archive site at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/orbs.htm from Reggie regarding this: quote: Remember, I've got dibs on the theory that the orb(s) are really just alien remote controls. They will work most alien equipment, like the AV equipment that played the Mom-o-gram and transmitted the alarm "beacon". No buttons on these remote controls- just think at them, FOCUS!, and they'll respond. Oh, and if you loose one, it'll let you know where it is so you or your girlfriend can find it.
By Starkiller 10-10-2000, 09:16 PM
Not that I've read any spoilers, but I am most certain Whitaker is NOT a skin. The way I have tied it together in my mind is that before Pierce was killed, he told Vanessa everything about the aliens and that "list" the special unit had which included Max, Michael, Maria, Isabel, Alex, Liz, and Valenti. I believe she is just a very curious woman(that is against aliens about as much as Pierce was), who arranged for a job interview with Liz, knowing all the time she would hire her. She hired Liz for the purpose of getting info from her. Tess was not known to the special unit, and was not on their "list." Unfortunately, Liz gave her away. 8)
By Nemo 10-10-2000, 09:20 PM
About Harding's rapid disintegration (bones and all) -- isn't that what happens in classic stories about people who for fictional reasons have lived an abnormally long time? When such ancient ones eventually succumb, it's as if those years suddenly catch up with them -- they return to dust as if gone for centuries. (Isabel is right -- it wouldn't happen that way with her, she's "too young to be dust.") Maybe some of us were right to suspect Harding has been around for centuries, searching across time and space for the podsters. ("You can never find those little pod people when you want them.") I still suspect that he was not their original guardian, but someone they were meant to be hidden from, because he had another agenda.
By Nemo 10-10-2000, 10:37 PM
Blue/orange color contrasts were discussed on former threads. About that time I noticed some old ones from Balance: Here Isabel is attending Michael in his illness -- about the time she sends the humans out of the room, saying that Michael needs her, not strangers. Behind her is row of books, orange and blue on opposite sides of the boundary seen here. (It's more striking in the original.) It made me wonder whether on the home planet, Michael (and Max's bride?) was of some different kind than Isabel and Max. Lending irony to Isabel's remark that Michael didn't need strangers, and explaining why this-world Michael found it difficult to trust the others, especially being alone of his kind. In this earlier scene (again, more vivid in the original), there is another orange/blue divide -- this one right between Isabel and Michael.
These scenes plus the one LSS pointed out -- the blue/orange contrast between Max and Liz in TLV -- looked suggestive enough that I compared notes with some of you, and found that GraceKel had proposed this idea some time ago. I bring it up here in case it may explain why the alien device responded to Michael but not Max. Maybe there has been distrust between the two kinds, and the device is built to warn of the approach of "those other guys" and stun them before they get too close. Harding/Nasedo seemed to fear a certain kind of aliens based only on what kind of skin they have. But according to AlienMom it isn't that simple -- the real enemies are known only
By the evil within. I wonder if the evil is mainly racial prejudice, fear of "the other," etc., and the injustices that come of it. It still looks like a good bet that the "royal four" were two pairs drawn from opposite sides to lead a peace initiative. (Until the disapproving segregationists or supremacists interfered.) Did you notice there was something like a wedding picture in the season opener (next to the psych. counselor), and a horse next to it? I wonder if that symbolizes former Max and his true bride, about to make a marriage, and "Mr. Ed" headed toward them to break it up. (Liz to Ed Harding: "Isn't murder what got you into this situation to begin with?" Max to counselor (cut scene): "I lost the only girl I ever loved." Both statements appear likely to true in a second sense about those former lives.)
By Lorrilei1960 10-10-2000, 11:17 PM
Hi all... burning the midnight oil, as usual (well, the 11:00 pm oil ) re Tess: someone mentioned that she fully expected to go back to Twilo and resume her life with Max as it was before... it got me to thinking about something she said to Kyle, "Nasedo taught me not to be too concerned with this" meaning her body. Could it mean that Nasedo thought they could revert or shapeshift back into their people's body forms? Or is it a clue that Tess is not what she appears? (and I was starting to like her ) re: Whittaker- I agree that she is human... and she really has some sort of connection with the alien hunters (how did she come to know Pierce in the first place, and why was their first tryst "political" as she says? )I'm speculating that she does have an agenda and was digging for info from Liz. re: the evil withing - I know that there is the underlying sexual/jealousy thing going on with Mi/Ma/C... but Maria has always been sensitive in picking out who was kosher and who was not. Perhaps the podsters are intended to develop this kind of human sixth sense about others... and they will be able to sense that evil within. Perhaps Kyle, on his new Buddhist path can show them a thing or two. re the disintergrating Nasedo - I was thinking along the same lines as whoever said that his rapid disinigration was akin to watching old vampire flicks where they turn to dust when staked because of their extreme age. Maybe Nasedo (and I know this has been discussed and argued before) truly is much, much older than his apparant age. re the dropping of the shed skins - very weird. Perhaps the skins disintergrate on their own if left long enough, and that's why they haven't been detected before. We are seeing fresher skins because their "shedders" have just left the premisis. Well...I've babbled on enough for now
By Elmindreda 10-11-2000, 11:24 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted
By LSS: <<As I said last week in the SF review--the private/public dichotomy in Max's life seems to be a key theme in this season. Ideally Liz might hopefullt be the vehicle that pulls both of these arenas of activity together. Perhaps that is coming. Right now, Max can't seem to pull them together. And those last words of his reminds me of his game of pretend that he tried to play with Liz in Skin and Bones. "King" Max is going to have to reconcile his roles as leader and lover. Poor Max. But if the writers can pull it off--we'll have a Happy Max indeed!!!! >> I have a theory about this. I do think Liz will be the deciding factor in how Max learns to accept his leadership role. And since we know next week concerns Isabel's surprise, and the week after that is supposed to be the black and white eppy, I hope it will happen in ep. 5. I can't say anymore about it here, because it does contain some spoiler info., but if you're interested, I've posted it on both the Max&Liz and Roswell Compilation spoiler threads.
By Elmindreda 10-11-2000, 11:48 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted
By Lorrilei1960: <<re Tess: someone mentioned that she fully expected to go back to Twilo and resume her life with Max as it was before... it got me to thinking about something she said to Kyle, "Nasedo taught me not to be too concerned with this" meaning her body. Could it mean that Nasedo thought they could revert or shapeshift back into their people's body forms? Or is it a clue that Tess is not what she appears? (and I was starting to like her ) >> Lorrilei---I think you are right on with your assessments of Whitaker and Nasedo. I think Nasedo *is* much older than he looks. We assume that he's the alien who escaped from the ship in the 1947 crash, and he had to be old enough in '47 to be a pilot or crew member of the spaceship. I assume that our pod squad hybrids will have a fairly normal human life span, since they've aged normally up to this point, but we really have no idea how long of a life span the other aliens have.
As for "the evil within" I think this is where Liz's flashes could come in handy. We know she has flashes when she's together with Max, but she also had flashes when she kissed NasedoMax, and that's how she figured out it wasn't the real Max. Of course, it would be awfully weird if she had to go around kissing everyone they suspect, so maybe they'll let her develop this "power" a little more! I guess she already has, since she doesn't have to kiss Max anymore to get a flash, she has them even when he touches her lightly. Does anyone else think that Max got a flash from Liz when he stumbled into The Crashdown and she held his face? I know he was slightly hysterical about Nasedo's death, but when Liz touches him, he gets a slightly surprised and wondering look on his face, much as Liz did at the end of S&B. Lorrelei---one other thing you touched on has really been bugging me.
How are the pod squadders supposed to visit the other planet in their current human bodies? Tess keeps talking about wanting to go "home" but I keep thinking that *Earth* is their home. Nasedo has told them that their bodies are human, and even their powers are of human origin, so would they even be able to survive on the "home" planet? And when Tess started talking about her past life memories, I got very suspicious. If she's only remembering feelings...okay, but she says she's remembering images. Images of what? Herself and Max as little gray people with huge dark eyes? So even if they were able to go back "home" in their current bodies, wouldn't they feel even more out of place when surrounded
By little gray men than they ever did on Earth? And I wouldn't think the inhabitants of that planet would accept them as leaders looking the way they do. Unless, of course, the entire planet is inhabited
By shapeshifters who don't mind taking on human form for the rest of their lives! Sorry to ramble on so long!
By SF 10-11-2000, 11:59 AM
Tess: Nasedo taught me a few memory retrieval techniques
Brody: Two years of recovered memory therapy I was struck
By the thematic repeat of the recovered memory idea. Brody's last line "So what about you Max? What's your abduction story?" struck me as a parallelism between the little pod people and alien abductees. Both groups have something done/happen to them that is beyond their control, about which they have little recollection, and that effects the rest of their life. Whether or not the 4 agreed to have their "essences" removed from their bodies and reconstituted in a human/alien hybrid, the fact that they have no memory of their consent, makes their story much like an abduction. They have yet to return home, and when they do, they will be different. [Or potentially in for yet another life cycle - grown in pods without human DNA - from which they'll emerge with no recollection…] It all seems to point to Brody being a sympathetic character. The first time Max walks into the UFO Center, you can clearly see the word "refuge" at the top of the stairs. As for the Congresswoman's office, there's a sign up against the wall that looks like it will eventually go in the front window that says it's Whittaker's Field Office (one of many?) with days and times that she's there. It's still odd that Liz is her only employee, but at least it's not supposed to be her main office. SF
By crazymama 10-11-2000, 12:26 PM
quote:Originally posted
By LSS: 2) THE ALIEN (PENTAGRAM-LIKE) DEVICE. Okay--we know that these devices activate when in the presence of aliens--or at least SOME aliens. The big question, of course, is why Michael and not Max? Does the device have to be held
By a biological entity before it is "turned" on? But are we to think that Brody just happened to be holding it on May 14 at 4:33p.m.? If he wasn't then how did he know that a pulse eminated from it at that time? Maybe another device was activated
By a skin and caused the one Brody had to go off, in May as well as in Ask Not. I guess I'm thinking back to the end of Destiny when we heard beeping and saw house lights turn on in various locations followed
By the ominous "It has begun." (I'm assuming they were skins.) quote:4) MEMORY RETRIEVAL. Folks, this is something (as a dreamer) I've always been worried about. Tess says she "remembers" some things about the home planet because Harding taught her some memory retrieval techniques. What if Max can "remember" that he loved Tess? Then again, did it strike you as strange that Max never "followed up" when Tess said she DID remember things about the ole' home planet? I think Max is afraid to remember. It would comlicate things for him even more than they are.
By Palomino 10-11-2000, 02:33 PM
[b] I agree with Crazymama that Max would not want to remember, but then where did the eyeball flashback come from? Maybe Max has been trying to get his memory back to help him be a leader again, but this silver lining has a cloud if he remembers "his love for Tess" and it pulls him away from Liz. If given the choice of remembering, Max might find the lives of the others more important than his love for Liz. On the other hand, if he is sure of his love for Liz, he may not concider memory retrieval a bad risk. Maybe he's trying for a selective memory.
By jjj 10-11-2000, 03:38 PM
re Tess: It seems odd that Tess implies that when all the bad guys are taken care off - everyone can go home to the planet to be named later and live happily ever after. Does she know something the rest of the pod squad doesn't? Or is this just wishful thinking? Also the remark about remembering bits of home and how Max loved her - since when? Thought that human emotions like love were a weakness. Is it possible that Nasedo's opinion on emotions was based on his status as a ss and the quartet is different? Maybe that was just his way of getting them to focus on practical issues of survival? re the device hurting Michael but not Max: Maybe the device is sentient at some level. Michael was sort of skulking about and could have been perceived as a threat but Max registered only as "interested". That could also tie in with someone's previous comment about the device "reading" Michael's warrior vibes. jjj
By Liriel 10-11-2000, 04:48 PM
quote:Originally posted
By tinkrbell: [B] The more I think about that scene, the more I wonder if Courtney is trying to "recruit" Michael - bring him to the dark side so to speak. "It only hurts once." [B] Sorry, I just thought of the obvious sexual innuendo. "It only hurts once. Then it's all about stimulation." At least I think that's what she said. Oh well, guess I'm just not a deep thinker. Rebecca
By cindylouwho 10-11-2000, 05:28 PM
Tess and her memories have me wondering if Harding did his own version of a mind game on her. Tess has spent all her formative years(6 or so up) with Harding. Perhaps early on, Harding told Tess what she felt, how she lived, the Max story and other tales from the home planet (not necessarily all true) and she now believes these to be her memories. Maybe it was done to ensure one of the Podsters would be ready to follow "destiny". Harding had no way of knowing what backgrounds/histories the Podsters were given from their adoptive parents. He could be assured that Tess had been given the correct information and would be his ally when the time came. I would think that adding all their old memories of their past lives to their present memories would cause great confusion, not to mention all the other emotions they would stimulate. I don't envy them if it comes to that.
By Palomino 10-11-2000, 07:25 PM
About SSer emotions and podster emotions: The Mommogram said she loved them and lived to hold them in her arms again. Tic-tac seemed to have feelings. Harding had a sense of humor, felt fear, showed anger, and said he was growing fond of "the foul temptress". He showed lust (more than once), impatience, and perhaps more than one other emotion when he said "No comment" to Max's inquiry about enjoying distracting the congresswoman. Harding may have said emotions were a weakness, but wouldn't a human soldier have said the same thing? He was trying to get Michael to focus and get down to business, instead of wallowing in self-pity. The podsters have and show all human emotions. Pierce seemed surprised that Max was part human, and equally surprised that he felt emotions. If Pierce was going
By the documentation made of the SSer in captivity, then he was probably studying another soldier like Harding, who was not emotionless, just repressing and controlling its emotions ("Never let them see you sweat"). He may have mistakenly thought the alien had no emotions, and thought Max would be the same. Even if Pierce was a Skin, the Skins may have attacked the SSers without knowing or caring much about them, so Pierce again may not have know the SSers or podsters felt emotions. The Skins could be racist and not interested in the psychology or culture of the planet they have taken over. The SSers may not be too willing to share this info with the enemy anyway. Also, Mommy said the podsters were to learn as much as they could, to be able to defeat the enemy. Maybe the SSers themselves are pretty much in the dark about the race who has enslaved them. Maybe both races are not too well versed on each other, or have made incorrect assumptions about each other. Any thoughts?
By Nemo 10-11-2000, 08:21 PM
quote:Originally posted
By SF: Tess: Nasedo taught me a few memory retrieval techniques Brody: Two years of recovered memory therapy I was struck
By the thematic repeat of the recovered memory idea.... As for the Congresswoman's office, there's a sign up against the wall that looks like it will eventually go in the front window that says it's Whittaker's Field Office (one of many?) with days and times that she's there. (I think the sign said future field office, if that helps explain why Liz is the only one there yet.) Is this sign part of another "thematic repeat"? At the bus station, while the camera lingered on Kyle, a background sign announced places and times. In Destiny and again recently we see a museum sign "The Timeline." Moreover, the brand name of the metal detector was Lorentz. The Dutch physicist H. A. Lorentz (1853-1928) clarified Maxwell's electromagnetic theory, so it seems fitting that his name is on someone's electromagnetic probe. But that name also evokes the Lorentz transformation, which deals with four spacetime dimensions (in a manner consistent with relativity theory). I suspect all these space/time references are leading up to something.
By dan99 10-11-2000, 08:49 PM
Hi everybody! I find these "science fiction of..." threads very interesting, but this is actually the first time I post in one. okay... no Cadmium X this week! don't think I can add much to what was already said anyway (even though I'm a chemist). It seems like the Congresswoman would know what Pierce would have told her (before he was replaced
By Nacedo). So what did Pierce know exactly? It seems to me that the FBI, much like Valenti, thought only Max was an alien (something Topolski said about Pierce wanting Max). Valenti only realized there were more than one after Michael blasted that jeep. Now why would Pierce share his informations with Whitaker in the first place? Did he think she'd come in handy? (I'm not American, so I don't really know what kind of power/authority a congresswoman could have) Or perhaps *she* wanted information on the FBI Special Unit (if you consider her to be an "evil alien"). On the subject of "who knows what?", I've been wondering if the Skins would actually know who they were looking for in Roswell?
Theory #1) Courtney already discovered them during the summer. It doesn't seem so unlikely, considering they keep talking in the crashdown, sometimes with people around.
Theory #2) Courtney still isn't sure of her preys. I had this idea when they showed us Courtney "shedding" her skin in the toilet. I thought how Nacedo had shapeshifted in the toilet in SKIN & BONES. What if she had been there "invisible/cloaked"? She then could have been following him around to his house, looking for clues (which we saw in this week's episode).
I think this theory is unlikely, but still interesting.... As for the skin laying around, well I'm not sure if it's meant as a "calling card". Perhaps when she's invisible, she still needs to "shed" her skin to remain unseen. Let's consider this from a cameleon's point of view. The skin allows her to "blend in", either
By passing as a human or as the background (which might require more shedding, if she's moving through different terrains). About Nacedo loosing "cohesion", I thought that as a shapeshifter, an active mind might be required to keep his body together. It's not unseen in litterature to find ss'er turning to dust.
By the way, anybody else ever wondered if Nacedo could have been a robot of some kind? (a very powerful and independant one admittedly) When he would get "deactivated", he could be "repaired" with the stones in the pod chamber. The Skin's attack would have disrupted him more permanently. It makes perfect sense to assume that warring factions would have developped weapons capable of harming each others (just consider how own military history).
About Brody? Well, I'll buy the story until we get evidence to the contrary. He could prove a very useful ally (with the $$ and knowledge!). His pentagram? It seems like it was activated when Michael got "pulsed" (like Brody was scanning or something). His abduction brings many questions! Who abducted him? Would there be more than two alien races on earth (the skins and the podsters)? We have been led to believe that the Skins were EVIL, but what if it's not the case for all of them? (Roswell as a way of turning characters around, doesn't it?)
I can think of only "evil reason" for removing Brody's tumor: using it for cell culture (perhaps they need it for themselves or for research)... Okay, just one last thought (perhaps this has been brought up before). About the orbs. Maybe the reason there are two is to represent the two hemispheres in the brain (I'm talking human brains, we don't really know about alien brains). That could be the reason they need the two. Those orbs (at least the one from SEXUAL HEALING) seemed to have some degree of artificial intelligence, like it wanted to be found and acted on that. ouf!! that's longer then expected! What do you guys think? dan
By shapeshifter 10-11-2000, 09:01 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: Blue/orange color contrasts were discussed on former threads. About that time I noticed some old ones from Balance: [image tweaked for color enhancement
By shapeshifter] Here Isabel is attending Michael in his illness -- about the time she sends the humans out of the room, saying that Michael needs her, not strangers. Behind her is row of books, orange and blue on opposite sides of the boundary seen here. (It's more striking in the original.) It made me wonder whether on the home planet, Michael (and Max's bride?) was of some different kind than Isabel and Max... I thought more or less the same thing (posted it on the Liz/Mythology thread) which means that if 2 of us independently arrived at similar conclusions, then maybe that is where the writers are going. I also saw it as an explanation for the pentagon's different reaction. I thought that their essences were from the shapeshifters and the skins, with the goal of the writers of the metal book being to form a peace-making marriage alliance. One would hope that Max would use diplomacy (and Liz's smarts) to acheive the same end instead of yielding to the royal figurehead model.
BTW, isn't it a violation of logic that Max & Michael (and Is) buy the war story but not the mating stuff? Also, I posted some Season One color theories on http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell , but just remembered Qfanny & I forgot the thing about the 2 basketball teams colors (was it yellow & blue or orange & blue?). With the arrival of the Skins, this now takes on more political symbolism. And on the Sci Fi of the shed skins: Do they shed all parts? Or only those exposed to air (face, hands?) If all parts, that could be kind of trippy to come across if a teenage Skin was as untidy in the bathroom as my teens are.
By Nemo 10-11-2000, 09:13 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Palomino: ...The Skins could be racist and not interested in the psychology or culture of the planet they have taken over. The SSers may not be too willing to share this info with the enemy anyway. Also, Mommy said the podsters were to learn as much as they could, to be able to defeat the enemy. Maybe the SSers themselves are pretty much in the dark about the race who has enslaved them. Maybe both races are not too well versed on each other, or have made incorrect assumptions about each other.... I think the show, especially this week, dramatizes how fatally easy it is to act on incorrect assumptions about who or what is the enemy. Mom didn't say one race enslaved another. She did say the enemies would be discernable only
By the "evil within" -- whereas the distinguishing feature of the Skins is externally visible. Mom (using present tense) spoke of "the conflict that enslaves our planet." (Emphasis added.) For these reasons, I think we should give at least equal consideration to clarinetkate's suggestion that the struggle on the home planet was ongoing, and the real enemies are the people (regardless of race) and attitudes that prolong the fighting, that won't allow peace. The odd scene with the welder at school seemed symbolic. The door sign (storage room) was cropped to RAGE ROOM. Entering, Max encounters something that burns and cuts. Instinctively, he puts up a shield. Then a mask gets removed and something fearsome-looking is revealed as an ordinary person, not a threat. Interesting.
By GraceKel 10-11-2000, 09:40 PM
Leave it to you NEMO to always find such great symbolism about the school closet-I think that sounded pretty accurate. Did anyone else notice the NA pic on the wall with the BOOK open---is this GC BOOK?
By Melodious1 10-11-2000, 10:05 PM
quote:Originally posted By Nemo: I think the show, especially this week, dramatizes how fatally easy it is to act on incorrect assumptions about who or what is the enemy. I've been pondering the "sides" as well Nemo.
I have to agree with you that, based on what we know so far, we probably shouldn't jump to conclusions on who is "good" and who's "evil" in this conflict "Mom" spoke of. Good and Evil could very well be relative terms (which is often the case in ..ahem... conflict). As of S&B and Ask Not, we have YET to see any real signs that these Skins are indeed "evil" (however, they might want to increase their SPF for that nasty peeling). Besides what we've heard (from what could be a very biased message) from "Mom". Ironically, the ONLY faction, so far, that's committed any actions which I believe could be considered "evil" are the Podians themselves. Harding and his Fed handprinting, amongst other things (Harding WAS a Podian, wasn't he?). I've also always thought it was rather heavy handed of the Podians to recreate their leaders as these human/alien hybrids and drop them on Earth -in theory- this conflict basically following them. Not only enslaving one planet with conflict, but now TWO!
Are we to assume these podster "enemies" were going to embroil Earth in this conflict anyway with or without the presence of the podsters? Seems kind of unlikely to me (but what do I know?). Unless Mom was actually referring to Earth as "our home planet" - which I don't think is the case (however, it's possible I suppose). It did seem "Mom" referred to 'the home planet' as some place the podsters would have to "return to" eventually. Earth isn't home (in Podian terms). I don't know, I'm just ranting. btw, I liked your thoughts on the welder. All sides are hiding 'behind masks'. Until all these masks are lifted, we just can't decide who to trust. Melodious
By Lorrilei1960 10-11-2000, 11:40 PM
Just wanted to add to my ramble of last night... re Brody - I'm holding out on a firm theory about him until we have more info. I bought his story. I do agree that finding and buying the pentathing was a tad farfetched, however, if the person who sold it to him stumbled upon it and didn't know what they had.... after all, the Skins (or whoever the pentathingies belong to) have probably been here a very long time, and if they haven't been used up until the time the Momogram set them off, it may have been thought of as useless techo-looking crapola.
By SF 10-12-2000, 09:38 AM
quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: In Destiny and again recently we see a museum sign "The Timeline." But that name also evokes the Lorentz transformation, which deals with four spacetime dimensions (in a manner consistent with relativity theory). I suspect all these space/time references are leading up to something. [/B] Nemo, I agree with you. Even in the Roswell world they've acknowledged that there are timeline issues (Max and Liz's coversation about the missing 40 years in MA), and that doesn't include all the additional timeline issues that posters have brought up. Do you have any ideas about The Student heading that is in a slightly larger font, and placed to the right of The Timeline heading on the same display board? SF P.S. Your analysis of the Rage Room scene was very insightful.
By shimi 10-12-2000, 10:12 AM
good points about the weakness of non-hybrids vs hybrids.... emotions- yes i noticed that too, along with questions of why Tess is still the only one to remember/feel something abt their past. as far as i know she only ( maybe) manipulated Max's fantasies, and M/I's were *real*. why dont they remember/feel something too? and i'm really surprised that Max didnt jump at the chance right away to check out Tess' retrieval techniques. like i said, it should been the first thing they all did together post-destiny, to corroborate the momogram. it sure would answer a few more questions before they flail around whingeing about "enemies". do they *really* have emotions in their original form? thats a good question. clearly, the more nasedo dabbled ( hee) in humanity the more*relaxed* he became... and then he dies! a cautionary tale. i dont know if that means there is no similiar emotional setup back on homeplanet. animals may not send each other flowers and hallmark cards but there is bonding in several species between couples, whether or not it is * mere* biology thats about reproduction. Tess could be remembering something like that. does that make sense? also this is being discussed on the gender thread but it bears on science fiction. it really is a hoary old stereotype that the males have been *sent* to do battle and their women are just brides and fiances who follow along. ( Bloodthirsty Isabel seems to be the exception to rule, this one time). Do they really need to mate that bad? that whole patriarchal thing is so unevolved, LOL. i know its a sci-fi archetype, chosen son and all that but still yawnworthy.
By NewMex_sky 10-12-2000, 10:32 AM
quote:Originally posted By tinkrbell: The more I think about that scene, the more I wonder if Courtney is trying to "recruit" Michael - bring him to the dark side so to speak. "It only hurts once." Considering Michael's emotional state he'd be an easy target. He hasn't exactly been Max's #1 fan lately. He says to Valenti "What if I'm not strong enough?" (S&B) But worse, what if he's not strong enough to resist? Enh, I'm upsetting myself. I meant my observation more along the line that Courtney could be working with/or/related to the Pierce that "died" (supposing that he wasn't human), and she's out for revenge. But your theory is very, very interesting. Michael is extremely unsure of himself and vulnerable to suggestion. I'd like to think his loyalty/love for Max and Isabel would set him back on the right course if he was being seduced
By the dark side. Interesting thought all the same, and would make an interesting script.
By LSS 10-12-2000, 10:55 AM
NEMO: You are totally right about the turning to dust as a CLASSIC motif of the long-lived who finally get caught
By Death. You should mention this observation (if you already haven't) to Rosta as she has long been a proponent of the alien colonies on earth in antiquity! DAN99: Welcome as a poster to the SF threads! BTW as a chemist your comments are VERY welcome indeed. I am in the humanities and you folk (science-types that is) are wonderful additions to the dialogue on these threads. See my comments to your posts below: quote:Originally posted
By dan99: It seems like the Congresswoman would know what Pierce would have told her (before he was replaced
By Nacedo). So what did Pierce know exactly? It seems to me that the FBI, much like Valenti, thought only Max was an alien (something Topolski said about Pierce wanting Max). Valenti only realized there were more than one after Michael blasted that jeep. Now why would Pierce share his informations with Whitaker in the first place? Did he think she'd come in handy? As for the "why" of sharing--common interests? macho pillow talk? Perhaps she has influence in Washington? Another interesting question might be...after you have had an affair with someone--don't you think a clone (who shared only the form but not the memories) would be easy to detect? Especially one whose technique was different (not that I want to get into the prowess of Harding here!)? quote:
By the way, anybody else ever wondered if Nacedo could have been a robot of some kind? (a very powerful and independant one admittedly) When he would get "deactivated", he could be "repaired" with the stones in the pod chamber. The Skin's attack would have disrupted him more permanently. It makes perfect sense to assume that warring factions would have developped weapons capable of harming each others (just consider how own military history). That is an extremely interesting suggestion. It would also explainhis single-mindedness of mission. I'm not sure the writers are "going there" but it would make for an interesting plot twist (reminds me of the ironic twist in the first Alien movie. quote: About Brody? Well, I'll buy the story until we get evidence to the contrary. He could prove a very useful ally (with the $$ and knowledge!). Me too.
quote: We have been led to believe that the Skins were EVIL, but what if it's not the case for all of them? (Roswell as a way of turning characters around, doesn't it?) Or that Max's species are "good" across the board. quote: Okay, just one last thought (perhaps this has been brought up before). About the orbs. Maybe the reason there are two is to represent the two hemispheres in the brain (I'm talking human brains, we don't really know about alien brains). That could be the reason they need the two. VERY nice piece of speculation. And since our podsters are hybrids it is to be expected tht their brains (in form at least) have two hemispheres. Well done! Nice to have you on board Dan...don't wait so long to post next time! LSS
By Elmindreda 10-12-2000, 11:52 AM
quote:Originally posted
By Melodious1: Ironically, the ONLY faction, so far, that's committed any actions which I believe could be considered "evil" are the Podians themselves. Harding and his Fed handprinting, amongst other things (Harding WAS a Podian, wasn't he?). I've also always thought it was rather heavy handed of the Podians to recreate their leaders as these human/alien hybrids and drop them on Earth -in theory- this conflict basically following them. Not only enslaving one planet with conflict, but now TWO! Are we to assume these podster "enemies" were going to embroil Earth in this conflict anyway with or without the presence of the podsters? Seems kind of unlikely to me (but what do I know?). Unless Mom was actually referring to Earth as "our home planet" - which I don't think is the case (however, it's possible I suppose). It did seem "Mom" referred to 'the home planet' as some place the podsters would have to "return to" eventually. Earth isn't home (in Podian terms). I don't know, I'm just ranting. Ooh, ooh, ooh! After reading this, I've got kind of an "out there" theory. What if Earth really is the alien home planet, just a very far in the future Earth? NasedoHarding told them that their powers are entirely human, just much more highly evolved than humans are at this point. So what if humans do (in a few thousand years) evolve into what we think of as "the aliens," either as a result of natural evolution, or because of interbreeding between humans and some other alien population? Perhaps future Earth inhabitants sent the pod squadders back to the past of their own planet in order to stop the conflict before it starts? Or perhaps they have the capability of time travel, but not space travel, so they figured the pod squadders would be safer in the past than anywhere else? This could explain why the alien and human DNA mix has worked so well. Human DNA is not completely different---just less evolved. (And this would certainly make it much more likely for Liz and Max to be able to....get involved.) I know there was a "spaceship" that crashed, but it still could be that it was a "timeship," not a traveling-from-a-distant-galaxy ship. And this theory could certainly jive with what I think/hope will happen in ep. 5. Hmmm.....I really like this, even if I do say so myself.
By Melodious1 10-12-2000, 12:43 PM
I feel like I've been posting this everywhere, but I've had a new thought on that *thing* from Max's flashes in ASK NOT sort of revolving around the quote below...
quote:From INTO THE WOODS KYLE: That summer, they found 5 cows, all of them mutilated with surgical precision on Haddie Wexler's farm. When she died 2 months later they did an autopsy, and sure enough, they found perfectly bored holes in her skull just where she claims the aliens made them when they abducted her that night. That skull is now buried deep somewhere within area 51.
I know this is stretching, but (hypothetically speaking) let's say that this possible mutilated cow's head memory Max has is actually a representation of the experiments that the Podians possibly subjected Earth beings too (including humans)? The former Max himself possibly present during these (violent, torturous?) experiments; an observer. Maybe he was against them, but believed (or was told) they were necessary for the 'survival of the Podian race'? Hence, this is the reason why this particular violent memory appeared amongst other flashes of violence (Hubble & Liz being shot, the torture in White Room). Perhaps this is something that (former) Max always regretted and wished he could rectify (wishing that he hadn't allowed these horrible alien experiments to take place at all)? It would also seem fitting for the situation in AN: Max, very reluctant to hurt any one (Brody - even despite the evidence against him) possibly due to something which he knew was horrible/wrong in the past and should have stopped but didn't? Melodious
By LSS 10-12-2000, 01:41 PM
Poor cows! LSS
By WhirlingGirl 10-12-2000, 02:04 PM
quote:Originally posted
By LSS: Poor cows! LSS LOL! I was very disturbed
By the image of the skinned and bloody skull, myself. I also believe it's a cow. grew up on a farm, seen them before, yick. I know it's a minor detail but how does that image fit in with the other memory flashbacks? my guess is that it was just a gruesome image of the butchery that max and is and michael were about to commit, and it helped him to realize that he couldn't do it. but the image was jarring enough to also make me think about aliens turning cows inside out, which i don't think it was intended to inspire. and then, probably because it was late and i was tired, i wondered idly if this season was going to explore all the major eastern religions, buddhism being the first, and that this was an image of the hindu sacred cow, profaned to show the wrongness of the actions they were about to take. that thought actually did cross my mind, but i mean it as a joke,
By the way. i know, i know. get some sleep. -WhirlingGirl
By Kate6058 10-12-2000, 03:47 PM
Okay, I was FINALLY able to rewatch Ask Not for the first time (roommate issues... she doesn't like it, I have no privacy... ugh!), and I just have one huge question... I've seen a couple other people mention it, but what in the world is Tess talking about when she tells Max that she's not human and neither is he??? Hello? Did we go back to last season? It reminds me of Michael... "We're NOT human." I can distinctly hear his voice saying that... anyway, I thought we had finally cleared that hurdle when the momogram arrived? You know, at this point, I'd almost welcome that human/alien conflict back to Max's life, as bad as it may seem sometimes... now it seems like all he's doing is fighting EA's then squeezing Liz in on the side. I knew that this season was going to focus on sci-fi, but I didn't realize that along with that we'd have to deal with ALL alien. I'm confused... did Max just not feel like fighting back, or why did he just stand there looking at Tess that way? Those were a very puzzling few lines...
By shapeshifter 10-12-2000, 04:13 PM
Ditto GraceKel, here's a "GraceKel" of Nemo's post for us to 'rewatch.' quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: ... The odd scene with the welder at school seemed symbolic. The door sign (storage room) was cropped to RAGE ROOM. Entering, Max encounters something that burns and cuts. Instinctively, he puts up a shield. Then a mask gets removed and something fearsome-looking is revealed as an ordinary person, not a threat. Interesting. ...
By Reggie 10-12-2000, 06:26 PM
So many comments, so little time... First, I'll second the notion that Harding's shapeshifter body was shapeless, without Harding's mind to dictate its form. When he died, a sort of rigor mortis kept the body together briefly, but then it reverted to its natural shapelessness. Think "mortal clay"... Second, I'm surprised that no one has gone nuts over the flash of the Bug-Eyed Monster. This is the biggest thing we've seen in a while: we're seeing traumatic things from Max's past, and get a B.E.M.?!? My guess is that this is one of Max's people, who's been killed. Probably proto-Isabel, maybe proto Michael, almost certainly not proto-Tess or proto-Max. Wouldn't it be fun, if Max describes it to Tess, and she draws something like it (but not quite). All agree that it's horrible, except Liz; who calmly identifies the drawing as Max? Oh, and BTW: if the Buddism thing develops, then it may enlighten the whole King Max thing. It's not hereditary, it's like being the Dahli Lama. Each time he's reincarnated, he's King again; only this time they did something to make him reincarnate in a human, not Twilonian, body. (Same for Isabel, Michael, and his young bride, Tess.) Of course, he may have been much older, and remarried after the death of his first wife. I wonder what happened to her soul, and where was it reincarnated? Any thoughts?
By shapeshifter 10-12-2000, 06:32 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Reggie: ...[Max} and his young bride, Tess.) Of course, he may have been much older, and remarried after the death of his first wife. I wonder what happened to her soul, and where was it reincarnated? Any thoughts? Maybe Max was young too--maybe too young to marry. Then maybe Tess's recovered memory was nothing more than hypothesizing on what would probably be--like I'm doing here.
By Nemo 10-12-2000, 08:51 PM
During the failed attempt to revive Nasedo, it looks like he changes into a left/right-reversed version of himself -- about the time Max says whatever happened to him is something they can't reverse. Has this been discussed? This sort of thing has happened before -- the handprint on Liz was the opposite of the hand Max used. This second instance makes it more likely something is up with this. A hint that the aliens have access to more than three spatial dimensions? The fact that an extra dimension enables a left/right transformation is a common example in discussions of higher dimensions, so it is plausible that the writers might have chosen this form of clue. [If so, I imagine they will play as loosely with it as with other things. So far, that's OK with me. The healing stones were a little hard for me to believe at first, but Cadmium X, for example, was not a problem -- I just think of it as a fictional substance reminiscent of technetium (element 43) which has no stable isotopes, does not occur naturally (apart from traces produced
By spontaneous fission in uranium ores), and was first observed when produced artificially.]
By shapeshifter 10-12-2000, 10:36 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: During the failed attempt to revive Nasedo, it looks like he changes into a left/right-reversed version of himself -- about the time Max says whatever happened to him is something they can't [b]reverse. Has this been discussed? This sort of thing has happened before -- the handprint on Liz was the opposite of the hand Max used. This second instance makes it more likely something is up with this. A hint that the aliens have access to more than three spatial dimensions? The fact that an extra dimension enables a left/right transformation is a common example in discussions of higher dimensions, so it is plausible that the writers might have chosen this form of clue. (If so, I imagine they will play as loosely with it as with other things. So far, that's OK with me. The healing stones were a little hard for me to believe at first, but Cadmium X, for example, was not a problem -- I just think of it as a fictional substance reminiscent of technetium (element 43) which has no stable isotopes, was first observed when artificially produced, and does not occur except as a
Byproduct of recent nuclear reactions.) I am wondering if this could be an attempt on the part of the crew/director/writers to dialogue with us of the VCR Killer cult.
By Nemo 10-12-2000, 10:43 PM
Were they counting on us already when they designed the Pilot?
By Qfanny 10-12-2000, 10:48 PM
LSS: Can't tell you how much I missed my computer! I just got home from Missouri about 75 minutes ago. I literally went through hell because there was no WB station at the hotel I was at, and waiting the extra four days was painful... (I'm not into pain.) You have a lot of great questions and I will read this thread sometime soon, but, what striked me as curious was Vanessa Whitaker look she gave after the "I hate Tess scene". I would like to spend sometime talking about a post on the last thread about how I thought "Pierce as an evil alien" sleeping with Whitaker for politic reasons was important. I think that Vanessa's deception to obtain Tess's name is also important, and that they are related. Will comment more later-- if I can ever get caught up on my sleep. Also, I want to say that Michael, Max and Isabel going to the UFO center, the flashbacks and memory scenes support some of these ideas of "we have to get rid of her" and "it was you" theories. Why is Liz in the flashback sequence if she has no importance to the podsters. Are the scenes from Max's perception alone? Hmmm I think I can take this to another thread. LOL I'm really, really tired and I'm posting when I should be going to bed. Just have to say that I LOVED the show! Although, I thought that the dancing was pretty stupid at the beginning. I haven't read anything posted yet so I'm sorry if I've I'm restating stuff already noted.
By Nemo 10-13-2000, 08:03 AM
In the cluster of four lights at the excavation site last week, one light had a halo. You lighting experts (Qfanny?), does this look normal (just light scattering in the optics, made noticeable
By the bright point source)? Or is it a special effect? (It seemed unusual that the halo appeared around just one light -- unless that one was aimed more toward the camera, which might have been the case.) If the effect was intentional, maybe it symbolizes that one of our group of four is exceptional in some way.
By GraceKel 10-13-2000, 01:11 PM
Nemo just went back and read further on this thread, I was wondering whats up with the horse pic and the wedding pic, but another great deduction on your part. I didn't notice the halo over one of the lights will have to go back and check that one. As for the blue and orange color schemes, did you notice when Brody Davis was telling Max the abduction story that the room was filled with BLUE and ORANGE--did you catch that?
By Reggie 10-13-2000, 01:25 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Qfanny: LSS: Can't tell you how much I missed my computer! I just got home from Missouri about 75 minutes ago. I literally went through hell because there was no WB station at the hotel I was at, and waiting the extra four days was painful... (I'm not into pain.) Oh, there you are! I wondered why you hadn't been on! Hey, check out the B.E.M. in the "traumatic events" flashback (when Max & Co. are going to kill the museum guy). Does that beg for questions, or what? Yes, the dancing thing was stupid, but so is a lot of what kids do to amuse themselves these days. <sigh> And the congresscritter looks like she's going to take up where Pierce left off... Busy episode, eh? :eyeroll:
By Elliott 10-13-2000, 02:39 PM
Wow, as always, this thread is riveting and there are too many interesting ideas ricocheting around here to address them all. For now, I just wanted to point out two things: One was the interview with Ron Moore where he says that there will be agreement in the world of ROSWELL and loose ends will be tied up from one plot thread to another (I am paraphrasing). He also indicated that the ROSWELL universe was a more coherent and tidy one than the 'Star Trek' universe was. I found that interesting, and it suggested that the producers and writers really do plan to follow up on mysteries like why Liz gets flashes and glowing hickies when the other romantically involved humans don't. And about Tess: I think we need to be reminded that we still know little about her 'upbringing' and motivations. She might be an evil alien and could be lying to Isabel, Michael and especially Max with every word. But I gather from the sympathetic way they handled her character in 'Ask Not' that we are meant to consider Tess sincere but perhaps seriously deluded about herself and what her role in all this is. We still know next to nothing about Harding's origins and we certainly know very little about what he told Tess about herself and the others. The writers really could go any number of ways with the character, but I think we need to take everything she says about 'destiny' and the essential nature of the aliens with a grain of salt. Her whole character is a big red herring and I for one discount just about everything she says.
By redhawk 10-13-2000, 03:00 PM
Hi Just wanted to say Nemo, I found your analysis of the storage room/welder scene very interesting.
By ROStaFEHRian 10-13-2000, 06:14 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: During the failed attempt to revive Nasedo, it looks like he changes into a left/right-reversed version of himself -- about the time Max says whatever happened to him is something they can't [b]reverse. A hint that the aliens have access to more than three spatial dimensions? The fact that an extra dimension enables a left/right transformation is a common example in discussions of higher dimensions, so it is plausible that the writers might have chosen this form of clue. [If so, I imagine they will play as loosely with it as with other things. [/B]
Excellent pick up NEMO. This certainly reinforces my perception that the past 2 episodes have had a 'feel' to them that suggested a dream/nightmare quality or, as I stated, evidence of some time-space perturbations. After episode 2, I still had this feeling that someone was going to 'wake up' from this. If this has not been dream or ngihtmare or delusional or disordered thinking (ie, PTSD!Max),then I can live with altered Time. This is a different Maria, a different Liz. These kids are acting a touch goofy. There has been, and continues to be, judging from the trailer, a lot of partying going on, and hanging around the Crashdown like ghosts tied to a place. Max running shirtless down the street has the appearance of unreality to it. Perhaps some of this storyarc will be about parallel universes, parallel lives, or a nexus/intersection point where something went wrong or got confused. You can probably explain this scifi staple better, NEMO.
Remember, for Nasedo, Edsedo, Pierce, Tess, the Podsters, Brody, et al, they have, at one time or another, been in the situation where each is not what the other(s) expected. Another concept may involve lives 're-lived' until one or more of them 'gets it right'. I still think these characters, particularly Liz and Maria, have a different 'feel' to them some of the time. Deliberately so? Are we 'moving' or 'shifting' between parallel timelines? Maybe I am the only one who thnks House of Rep. hearings with inflatable alien dolls on the podium as weird as Isabel in a ballgown at a birthday party at the Crashdown. As hilarous as Alex looks doing what he is doing with the T-shirt, I'm not sure we've met this Alex before.
Someone mentioned seeing MsEvans. People have such sharp eyes. I saw her and can't believe I missed her the first couple times I saw the preview when I was looking for her! Which brings us to the next major weirdness: where are the Parkers? It's their restaurant. And the absent MrEvans? Did I miss them, too?? Rosta PS- Right place, the right time, right podseters, but WRONG STONES, ie, they are OUT OF PHASE with this time or with this Edsedo? (of course, Right stones, right time, right Edsedo, wrong podsters, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...
By Qfanny 10-13-2000, 08:14 PM
Well, I'm not sure if I have anything of value to add to this discussion, but here goes! 1) Reggie I did not notice the eyeball in the flashback scene, and please let me know what you mean
By B.E.M. However, I do remember in The Morning After Liz asked Max what he really looked like (for Maria). He said they always looked how they are except for the "Third Eye". Man. I can't believe no one posted this. I always thought that third eye was a metaphor for their powers, but hey, maybe I was wrong! LOL 2) Brody: Can't decide if he's innocent of being alien or not. I would like to see him stay as he is for now... This character has a lot of possiblities for me because there is something endearing about the guy how is so close to knowing the truth, and plays himself the fool all the time. The line he said about aliens walking around Roswell right now tickled my ironic funny bone. I do think that he was abducted
By good aliens, I can't think why anyone would just cure bone marrow cancer for the hell of it. 3) Pieface Are you out there? Your cloaked spaceship theory from season one is a hard sell, but it seems to fit this episode very nicely! I want to show you a screencap courtsey of Crashdown-- Doesn't that lamp behind Max really look like the classic flying saucer! Of course, he is standing outside the Crashdown doors. 4) I am not opposed to new powers, but I hope the podsters will at least learn to use the ones they already have. Here we have again another episode where a dreamwalk would have greatly assisted the discovery process the podster undertook on Brody. Isabel is just not utilized. Come on guys! Use her! She needs a different place than buffer for Max and Michael. Another power that get's neglected is the manipulating molecular structure. Sigh. Now, as for Max's new power, I think that Iz and Michael were very surprised with it. This seems to be the type of thing Max would share, particularly since it some sort of defensive power.
If Max is worried about the others getting hurt, teach them the trick! Tess and healing. I think this was done to answer fan questions (as if we're that important) about are gender-based, individual base, or universal powers. This scene answered my question about gender-based powers. Still think that there is one "special" thing each podster can do that the others cannot do! This makes it almost cartoonish to me. As if they are one step away from joining Stan Lee and the X-men. But I can go with it... 5) Beepers: SF and ROStaFEHRian the beeper is five sided with six symbols, I see that now. I'll make a trip soon to the S&S thread soon. But, in regards to some of the questions on this thread here are some thoughts. a) Why did the beeper send out that energy circle when Michael was near and not Max. b) May 14 comments c) Why wasn't Brody affected. I have some new thoughts to a).
First, Max has learned how to defend himself using his powers. He had just used his powers to immobilze Isabel and Michael. Perhaps this kicked off the beeper. Second, the symbols on the beeper are used in the cave drawing. Perhaps the beeper Brody has actually should belong to Max. When a different alien is near, it just kicks out that defensive energy ring. The energy ring and Max's new power seem to be simaliar. If the beeper true owner is Max, only Max would be able to get near it without detection. In regards to May 14: In Europe, this date would be abbreviated as 14-05. Ok, Nemo I'm sure you noticed this, but 1+4=5! 5 represents the 4 podsters and Liz. The five received the vision from the mom-o-gram, which activated a 5 sided beeper. Mom-o-gram may have refered to 5 seperate people in the past lives exposition. I really had more on this, but my thoughts are jumping to other stuff. Let's hope someone can pickup where I've left off.
Thoughts on C-- I think that the energy pulse that came from the beeper would only affect alien essense. Michael thought he broke ribs, but his human body was not damaged at all. 6) SKINS: I do not think that they are the evil aliens. I see them as the aliens no one wants around them. That's what I thought when Harding found the skin in S&B, he said, "Oh no, the skins!" Just like he was saying, "Great, now another problem to deal with." Of course, Harding dies and basically tells Max that the skins are among them. Are we to assume that it was a Skin that killed them? And if yes, then why doesn't the podster sense this around Courtney? If Harding wasn't killed
By a skin, then that line makes no sense, but it does explain the failure of anyone to identify Courtney. LSSI think Maria dislikes Courtney for more human reasons. Good Q though in your intro. Finally 7) Memory Retrieval I think Tess has done a mind warp on herself. She has convinced herself that she is not human when it's been clearly stated
By Pierce no less, the podsters are completely human. Tess can create any illision she wants. Why can't she form a mind warp based on Nasedo's descriptions of "home". I think that her memories are delusions. How can anyone or anything remember stuff from a different life??? Seems more new age than science fiction. And I think when time gets hard for Tess she's more likely to react exactly as Nasedo raised her. More Tess points-- she's great with Kyle! I hope to God they keep that storyline up. I'm not saying this from a dreamer standpoint. Tess asks Kyle for compassion and understanding, and that really went a long way in helping me ignore those whiny "What now Max?" questions. I think living with the Valenti's will be good for her, help her understand that she's more than just a reincarnated alien. She's a human being with free will. ******Nasedo/Harding/Piercedo/Maxcedo******** I will miss you!!!! shapeshifter, great job plugging our site. http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/
By Qfanny 10-13-2000, 08:28 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: In the cluster of four lights at the excavation site last week, one light had a halo. You lighting experts (Qfanny?), does this look normal (just light scattering in the optics, made noticeable
By the bright point source)? Or is it a special effect? (It seemed unusual that the halo appeared around just one light -- unless that one was aimed more toward the camera, which might have been the case.) If the effect was intentional, maybe it symbolizes that one of our group of four is exceptional in some way. Nemo, I will take another look at this, although, it didn't seem very odd to me right off. I do remember feeling sorry for the remote lighting director in that scene. I think it would have been very hard to get enough light - but then I always forget they have much better lenses than what I am accustomed to. Plus if they are shooting to film, they don't need as much. Sorry-- I digress.
By Qfanny 10-13-2000, 08:36 PM
I forgot about the Max "I'm coming for you" line. I was shocked about him saying, "I don't care about my planet," I don't know if we really have a show if Max truly believes this. More and more I believe Liz is the leader because Liz is Max's world.
By Nemo 10-13-2000, 08:45 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Qfanny: I do think that he [Brody] was abducted
By good aliens, I can't think why anyone would just cure bone marrow cancer for the hell of it. Well, I haven't studied biology since the 10th grade, but isn't the most rapid growth found in (a) fetal tissue and (b) cancer cells? Well, if an alien needs some "human genetic material" two contrasting approaches would be to kill someone and steal (a), or take (b) and heal someone. [Perhaps material (b) would be valuable only if the aliens can tame the out-of-control growth, but let's grant them that.] Then, maybe the story has one example of each. This could fit with the idea of two opposing shapeshifters at work behind the scenes in season 1 and before: TicTac being considerate of humans, and Harding not.
By shapeshifter 10-13-2000, 09:52 PM
Just rewatched AK. I'm 1/2 asleep, but that's when I get my "flashes" nothing like Liz's Anyone else? So, the flashes: the blowtorch guy Was going to torch Max, but his shield protected him. The sort of infared view of the Skins is just that: they are looking for something that shows up in such a wave length (just a theory). And another: The Skins have no human bodies either (like Nasedo the shapeshifter). The difference: the Skins only form "skins" that look like humans, while shapeshifters are more solid: quote:from the AK transcript: MICHAEL: I found this thing out
By Pierce's grave site. It looked like a snake skin. When I tried picking it up, it disintegrated. ISABEL: Look. (Nasedo's body slowly dissolves into dust) And, just the obsessive Librarian in me: quote:Kyle's line to his dad: My strength fails. My vitality exhausted. I cannot find the bull. I only hear the locusts chirring through the night and from http://www.deeshan.com/zen.htm : quote: ...Taken from the book: Zen Flesh, Zen bones... My strength failing and my vitality exhausted, I cannot find the bull. I only hear the locusts chirring through the forest at night...
By Qfanny 10-13-2000, 09:57 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: Well, I haven't studied biology since the 10th grade, but isn't the most rapid growth found in (a) fetal tissue and (b) cancer cells? Well, if an alien needs some "human genetic material" two contrasting approaches would be to kill someone and steal (a), or take (b) and heal someone. [Perhaps material (b) would be valuable only if the aliens can tame the out-of-control growth, but let's grant them that.] Then, maybe the story has one example of each. This could fit with the idea of two opposing shapeshifters at work behind the scenes in season 1 and before: TicTac being considerate of humans, and Harding not. Could Brody be Tess's DNA parent then? If his abduction happened 7 years ago then we know for a fact that he could not have donated DNA to Max, Michael or Isabel. They have been pod free for
10-11 years. We really don't know about Tess. I am assuming that alien technology is superior and that the fact that a cancer cell is deformed
By nature doesn't matter.
By shapeshifter 10-13-2000, 10:31 PM
Okay, sleepreading the transcript: quote: MICHAEL: Will you wake up!?! Nasedo told us before we activated the orbs that we might be telling our enemies where we are. and quote: ISABEL: Brody said the device just went off in his hand. It send out a pulse without warning, so I think it was because Michael was near, but I'm not sure. ALEX: But why would it react to Michael and not to you? How 'bout if the reason Michael was effected was because he has frequent contact with the orbs where they are stored (at his apartment). This would fit with Courtney's interest--she was looking for residual orb energy with her ultra-ray vision.
By Nemo 10-13-2000, 10:47 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Qfanny: Could Brody be Tess's DNA parent then? If his abduction happened 7 years ago then we know for a fact that he could not have donated DNA to Max, Michael or Isabel. They have been pod free for
10-11 years. We know this for a fact unless there is time travel in the story. And it keeps looking that way.... But without invoking time-travel conundrums, maybe Brody is not the first case of this kind. (Contrary to what I said above about one instance of each. I didn't mean to strongly imply only one.) Maybe there have been earlier cases, and this one just clues us that such things have been happening. In that case, what else is going on with all that material?
By ROStaFEHRian 10-13-2000, 10:53 PM
quote:Originally posted
By shapeshifter: And, just the obsessive Librarian in me: and from http://www.deeshan.com/zen.htm : ...Taken from the book: Zen Flesh, Zen bones... My strength failing and my vitality exhausted, I cannot find the bull. I only hear the locusts chirring through the forest at night... Thank you for this link, SHAPESHIFTER. I like to find things like this. I will repost on the SIGNS&SYMBOLS thread my post on Chakras that I used to kick off the first S&S thread earlier in June. That post was motivated
By the the statues in TLV; the 7 system symbols: including on the map, the fact that the sheriff initially wore a 7-point badge, the 12-spoke dharma wheel that was visible on top of the cabinet in the TV room of the Valenti home in several early episodes. Rosta
By Palomino 10-13-2000, 11:00 PM
Qfanny: Nice to see you again. I haven't been around much either due to work. BEM that Reggie referred to meant "Bug-Eyed Monster". You said in one of your posts, I believe, that the podsters were totally human. Pierce actually found out that they were part human and part alien - to his surprise. Max in S&B said he was an alien, then corrected himself and said "hybrid". Then explained he was the product of alien DNA and human DNA. The SSers had pleanty of reasons to make them hybrids. I liked the idea of them being aliens, that was sort of key to the show. I was rather disappointed when they made them only part alien, but that did help explain more things. When I first saw "Destiny", I thought, "Oh crap, now they aren't going to be even alien, they will be from the future." Several others on the boards back then didn't like the idea either. It kind of ruins the hope that there are aliens, if the podsters and SSers are from the future instead of another planet. Same for the skins if they turn out to be another earth-species. "We have met the enemy, and they are us."
About Max's memory flashes as he and Mi/I walk through the UFO Center to Brody : I slow motioned this part on my better VCR and thought some might like a run-down of what Max was seeing, so here it is. (Keep in mind that as the flashes get faster, the frames are less, so the actual flashes contain less and less.) Michael killing Pierce. Pierce's body flying back. Valenti shooting Hubble. Hubble being hit. Strangers struggling. Liz getting shot. Max walking Pierce standing over a restrained Max, and turning a dial controlling the electricity Max is hooked up to. Max screaming in pain. Max walking Pierce flying back. Hubble being shot. Liz being shot. Max screaming. Max walking Pierce flying back. Hubble being shot. Liz being shot. Alien (partial head and eye view). Kennedy photograph. Max screaming. Pierce flying back. Hubble being shot. Liz being shot. Max screaming. Pierce flying back. Max walking Kennedy photograph. Hubble being shot. Max walking. Alien (partial head and eye view). Max walking Liz being shot. Kennedy photograph. Max screaming. Max stops and turns around to face the others.
All were tramatic events to him, which makes me think the Alien Eye was another tramatic event that happened to him. The Alien Eye was not the same type of eye that we saw when Harding was shifting back and forth in the pod chamber. It did not look wet blood on the surface in the pauses, but more like it was under the skin and maybe even natural coloring. It didn't look as bad when paused. It was not a skinned head (I have watched slaughtering), because over to the right on the face, you can see vessels under the skin as if we are seeing the actual surface.
Also, there were no rips or cuts evident on it as there would have been in slaughtering, and there were no eyelashes as with cows. The eye was set wrong for a cow. I got the impression the Alien Eye was on a being that was lying down. An injured, dying, or dead friend/family member? An enemy he killed? Himself dying or screaming during a different torture? So many possibilities. Max didn't seem upset that he saw the image, and it must have had some meaning to him if it was part of tramatic events he remembers. He was so concerned about doing the right thing and LEADING, because any mistake could have meant billions of lives. He was supposedly able to lead in his past life, and Tess had told him she had been able to pull up memories from her past life. We don't know what he did on his own (if anything) after Tess told him about it. (Max had at least 24 hours, and some of it must have been private.) He may have desperatly needed to know what his former self knew about being a leader and tried to call up memories. He has said that all he knows is being human, this eyeball is definately not human, and does not look earthly (unless the special effects dept needs help). I agree with Reggie, THIS WAS AN EXTREMELY IMPORTANT DEVELOPMENT IN THE STORY, if Max is now able to start remembering alien images.
By Qfanny 10-13-2000, 11:13 PM
Palomino: Thanks for the list! It's good to be back. I thought that Pierce said your completely human, but in retrospect, I think he said that to Max regarding his bone and systems structures alone. I must still be tired from my trip.... But still, up until that point in WR, Max was 100% alien. It was Pierce that humanized his biology. I'm going to have to GraceKel that sequence again, but I felt, and this probably belongs over on Liz #10, that the shootings in the flashback, particulary at the Crashdown, reminded me of Max and Michael bickering. I then wondered if it could be Max and Michael as the truckers-- and remember how Maria was blown off
By the one trucker, "Coffee?" "No get out of here." It was said exactly how Michael would say it. I forget about the time line theories Nemo. I've been out of practice for over 1/2 week. Off to the VCR!
By Lorrilei1960 10-14-2000, 12:00 AM
Just a thought... Someone said something about the skins not having bodies, but create them using skin which dies off (or something to that effect)... I once read a story (later made into a movie, but of course the short story was much better ) about a future Earth where humans were dying off and had replacement parts in which they would time travel and extract victims from fatal plane crashes before the crash...then replace them with brain dead humans. I really don't want time travel to be part of the story...way too confusing... but what if (yikes...more speculative ramblings ) Skins are future humans who have been damaged
By the pollution, or nuclear fall out, or something, and have come back to this time for some purpose (like saving mankind???). I really don't think this is the case, but I thought I'd toss it out there
By HeaT 10-14-2000, 12:01 AM
Regarding Brody- I'm wondering if the storyline of being "abducted" is really true here. It could be possible that the "good" aliens needed humans to experiment on so that they could gather the DNA material needed to engineer our teen alien 4some. On the other hand, the "evil" aliens could have been the ones doing the abducting, so that they could figure out how to appear as humans. I guess they still have a problem with skin shedding. What do you guys think? HeaT
By shapeshifter 10-14-2000, 08:19 AM
Maybe if they offered Courtney some TicTacs she wouldn't shed so often. Actually, I'm thinking if you poked her with a pin there'd only be air inside.
By starcat 10-14-2000, 09:54 AM
Qfanny and Elliott: You both brought up similar concerns and questions I had regrading Tess, memory retrieval etc. check out pg. 3 of this thread...what are your thoughts? Elliott - I completely agree that Tess is a wild card and am curious (being unspoiled) how it will all evolve. The comments she made regarding her 'current' physical form perplexed me..I elaborate on pg. 3
By Melodious1 10-14-2000, 11:11 AM
quote:Originally posted
By Palomino: All were tramatic events to him, which makes me think the Alien Eye was another tramatic event that happened to him. ...Himself dying or screaming during a different torture? So many possibilities. Max didn't seem upset that he saw the image, and it must have had some meaning to him if it was part of tramatic events he remembers. He was so concerned about doing the right thing and LEADING, because any mistake could have meant billions of lives... Reading the above Palomino, for some reason, I thought of that torture scene at the end of Braveheart, William Wallace (Mel) screams "Freedom" and he falls limp on the torture table and dies. BEM = Max remembering himself being tortured and dying a la William Wallace? I agree with you Palomino, the flashes *we* recognized were all traumatic events in Max's life, so it's safe to assume that the BEM was also a traumatic event. So traumatic (memorable) current Max clearly remembers something from it.
I also agree - if the BEM is indeed a pastlife memory - it is EXTREMELY significant. Can I just say, I love that TPTB threw that flash in there for us to find/speculate. I really feel they had *specific* reasoning for this. On that note, do any of you think the flashes might be even *more* connected/relevant then just being traumatic Max memories? Maybe a little hint
By the writers/TPTB to take a deeper look at the events Max remembered (accentuating their relevance to Max - current and/or past lives)? Max remembers Hubble getting shot: Hubble tried to kill Max because he believed he was the alien that killed his wife Sheila. Sheila's death is still a mystery, why/how did she die? Why was she blessed (cursed) with a silver handprint? Could her death significantly be connected to Max
By chance? ...beyond Hubble's accusation that is. Arguers shoot Liz: Max has been in love with Liz for a long time, so her near death would obviously be traumatic. Of course, many believe Max's "love at first sight" is odd (considering what he is). What was it about Liz Max immediately found so special? (a prominent question amongst RBIs everywhere) The electrocution in WR
By Pierce: Torture basically, and close-ups of Max in agony (shots of his head btw). Pierce was -in that time- nemesis numero uno. Michael blasting Pierce: Pierce was the first death via Podsters, post S&B, we *know* this was difficult for Max. Not a whole lot I can think of to connect here. Could former Max also had difficulty with killing/death (the BEM being a slain enemy,
By his hands)? The BEM: I'm liking the ideas of this being Max remembering himself; tortured or dying in the past life (also
By former Max's #1 enemy? One person?). However, if this was a loved one from the past life (and Liz also being one of the *traumatic* present life flashes)... Possible connection between the BEM, Liz, "young bride" (and would this be Tess or Liz?)? Melodious
By clarinetkate 10-14-2000, 01:03 PM
ok, I have been away from this thread for a few days and had LOTS of reading to catch up, but I have something important to say! In Regards to Tess' "Memories" Ok, everyone seems to not be buying this memory retrieval stuff. Some think that Tess is full of it, some think she has "mindwarped" herself. I believe her. (Not just cause I'm a hussy!) They are ALL able to remember things from their past! Isabel and Max at the beach in Florida, they REMEMBERED that symbol, though not what it meant. Michael REMEMBERED/Knew the cave srawings were a map and he KNEW how to navigate them! We were faced with this all the time last season, the podsters just KNOWING how to do something or having a feeling, Isabel called it "instinctual, primal" I'm saying it's not just instinct, they remember! Tess perhaps is the most advanced in her rememberings, either with the help of Nasedo or because she's been allowed to explore her alien side more. With the introduction of the BEM, I'd say it is a definite that the podsters can remember their past lives, and if they really focused on it (Tess' techniques) or in situations of extreme duress, they'd remember. Michael said that he didn't get the manual... well maybe it never had to be given to him, maybe he just needs to remember. --KATE
By clarinetkate 10-14-2000, 01:09 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: During the failed attempt to revive Nasedo, it looks like he changes into a left/right-reversed version of himself -- about the time Max says whatever happened to him is something they can't [b]reverse. Has this been discussed? This sort of thing has happened before -- the handprint on Liz was the opposite of the hand Max used. This second instance makes it more likely something is up with this. A hint that the aliens have access to more than three spatial dimensions? The fact that an extra dimension enables a left/right transformation is a common example in discussions of higher dimensions, so it is plausible that the writers might have chosen this form of clue. (edited
10-13-2000).][/B] Also, just another thought with this, I'd say we are definitely dealing with more than your standard dimensions. Remember the library scene where Tess basically reached into the bookshelf to pull out the book that was hiding in another dimension. Also, Max with the handprint to open the pod area. I am curious about Tess reaching into the bookshelf, was she able to do this only because there was something there, like she was reaching into a secret cub
Byhole that only she could see? Or, can they reach through things into another dimension at any time? And if they can, could they get pulled, or pull someone into this other dimension? LOL, maybe THAT'S where Tictac went! Harding yanked him into a dimensional cub
By hole! LOL, that wasn't meant to be serious, I hope I haven't opened up a can of worms here... --KATE
By clarinetkate 10-14-2000, 01:15 PM
quote:Originally posted
By shapeshifter: And, just the obsessive Librarian in me: [QUOTE]Kyle's line to his dad: My strength fails. My vitality exhausted. I cannot find the bull. I only hear the locusts chirring through the night and from
http://www.deeshan.com/zen.htm
: quote: ...Taken from the book: Zen Flesh, Zen bones... My strength failing and my vitality exhausted, I cannot find the bull. I only hear the locusts chirring through the forest at night... Ok. Sorry for the three posts in a row, but had to say, you gotta love the fact that the Buddhist quote was from a book entitled Zen Flesh, Zen Bones. Way to tie that in! I wonder if they even suspect that we will look that far to see that and realize the connection Flesh,Bones, Skin and Bones. VERY interesting. So much has revolved around the idea of skin and bones, beyond just the opening. It has been a running theme for quite some time now and it's nice to see them really tie that in. Gotta love it. --KATE
By shapeshifter 10-14-2000, 03:47 PM
Kate, I saw that too. In fact, when I was searching for the quote, the Zen Flesh, Zen Bones jumped out at me. I imagined the writers noticing it too and wondered if they titled the Skin & Bones ep before or after they pulled the quote. But then maybe this is just one of those archetype moments...
By SciFiMom 10-14-2000, 04:36 PM
I don't get here often, so usually my thoughts have already been posted
By others. But I do have one thought I would like to share that I haven't seen yet. The alien device, when it went off and hit Michael , but didn't go off around Max, I had two thoughts. First, the new guy (sorry, blanked on his name )was holding the device when Michael came in, maybe he set it off or an skin was around and set it off from a distance. The other thing I thought about later was that maybe the device detects emotion. Michael was angry and was intending to harm, (aha! I remembered!), Brody. While Max was "docile" and had no harmful intent. Not a great insight, but interesting. I hope... Now as for the "skins"....I was speculating wether they are really shedding their skin. You see if it was like a reptile then they really look like humans.
Maybe they can only form a human appearance (skin) and it can only last for a length of time, before they have to "create" another outer layer. As the first layer begins to disinegrate, they form a new layer. I wonder if these layers are "fragile", I mean what if someone grabs their arm just before they need to shed? Could their skin be pulled off? At the risk of sounding really dumb . I had never thought that "tic tac" and Nacedo were different people. I had assumed they were the same, but you all seem to know they are separate. So, will someone share why? What did I miss?? ~Sheri
By Kilrkrow 10-14-2000, 05:52 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Jamethiel: [SNIP]...I know we haven't directly linked the "pulsing" pentagram to Nasedo's death but I think the visual "star" on his chest points in that direction. It would stretch the imagination to be given two different weapons as representative of the evil aliens! Not that we haven't had to stretch our imaginations on many occasions with this wonderful show. Greetings! First time viewer/poster here. Let me say how happy I am to find fellow beings so addicted to Roswell. (May it air for many years!) In regard to the quote above - someone please post pics of the "galactic pager/weapon/alien belt buckle" and also a pic of Necado showing his wound. That should shed some light on whether the pager might have been the weapon which killed Necado.
By Kilrkrow 10-14-2000, 07:07 PM
quote:Originally posted
By shapeshifter: Just rewatched AK. I'm 1/2 asleep, but that's when I get my "flashes" nothing like Liz's Anyone else? So, the flashes: the blowtorch guy Was going to torch Max, but his shield protected him. The sort of infared view of the Skins is just that: they are looking for something that shows up in such a wave length (just a theory). And another: The Skins have no human bodies either (like Nasedo the shapeshifter). The difference: the Skins only form "skins" that look like humans, while shapeshifters are more solid: And, just the obsessive Librarian in me:
[QUOTE]Kyle's line to his dad: My strength fails. My vitality exhausted. I cannot find the bull. I only hear the locusts chirring through the night and from http://www.deeshan.com/zen.htm : quote: ...Taken from the book: Zen Flesh, Zen bones... [b]My strength failing and my vitality exhausted, I cannot find the bull. I only hear the locusts chirring through the forest at night... [/B][/QUOTE]
I'd like to take that theory a step further: What if the Skins are called so because they wear the skins of others? Either: a) with the host alive (i.e. as a symbiont (sp?)); or b) after killing their prospective host they literally wear it like a suit? a) has been done before, so hopefully it's nothing so simple. I like b), as it might explain why the Skins shed: the Skin might possess the ability to energize the flesh of a dead host for a short period of time, but as time progresses the hosts body dies slowly.. resulting in the shedding of cells the Skin can no longer reengergize. Whaddy'all think?
By Qfanny 10-14-2000, 07:45 PM
starcat said 4) Memory retrieval - this whole scene perplexed me because Tess refers to herself as NOT being human and makes mention that she was taught not to get caught up in all "this" (refering to her human form). Nasedo makes it clear to Michael in WR that his powers are human (advanced) and we find that their bone structure is also every bit Human as well....so, we know they are hybrids who, after earth mission accomplished, will return home to a people that they do NOT RESEMBLE in any way thus the 4 would be stuck with each other and their children would be - 'red-necks' - ie. no one with their genetic traits (human) to procreate with other than themselves - and I make these comments also based on alien mom's words which told the 4 that she took this 'form' because it was one they would recognize....THUS the alien form is DIFFERENT...not saying its green just different...
Basically what I am getting @ is that Tess made it seem as though they could return to life as normal on 'their' planet - meaning the human form/situation was temporary...I believe she is deluding herself to think that they will 'blend' - they are part human and maybe were never intended to return 'home'- fight the good fight from earth and in the process make an ally out of the planet - it has been made clear that advanced human capabilities may be what allows the 4 to survive the skins - so it is quite conceivable to think that it is their 'humanness' that will allow them to save their planet of origin...and what better way to do so than to form a bond with one of earth's own - Liz...(thats IF you believe she is 100% human).
Qfanny's reply Starcat, this post is what I based my comments on page 5 to. I don't know what more I can add to this, you seem to cover all the important points. I do think that Tess was privy to the mommogram's message b4 mommogram happened. Nasedo has been away since Max gave him the order to "replace Pierce". There must have been some communication between Nasedo and podsters though because how would he know that the podster's activated the orbs after leaving. I don't think Tess as ever thought for herself and when she says "We need him" in the pod chamber, I think she is refering just to herself. I suspect Tess to be a gullable (sp) person/alien and needs someone to tell her what to think and feel. I can totally see her taking something Harding said sacastically as the TRUTH and that's why she's an emotional mess. Just look at Harding's behavior from TLV to Destiny. Confused? Imagine what fun Harding had raising Tess. Telling her things that sounded wonderful and pumping her up for the mission... There is a lot Harding conventantly forgot to tell the podsters and I suspect what Tess says is the result of trying to figure out a meaning of sort... This probably makes no sense whatsoever and I feel like I'm typing without any particular point to prove. Maybe someone can help me out here.
By sidera 10-14-2000, 08:08 PM
see, what i don't get about brody and the whole alien device is that he DID pick it up when he was max. why did it go off when he was holding it around michael and not when he was holding it around max. i don't know- but all i have to say is that TPTB are really stacking it against the pod squad. we have courtney and the skins,(who may or may not be the evil aliens), congresswoman whitaker, grant, deputy hanson (questionably) AND brody. someone here has to be an ally. last year we only had Valenti, Topolsky/Pierce/Special Unit and the fourth alien. The pod squad only had to deal with one or two at a time. this season we have 5, maybe 6 different unknowns- and we still have the wild card of tess. my suspicion is that one of them is going to be an ally, because TPTB wouldn't leave our pod squad that much to go up against. best guess- brody is legit- they need to resources esp if TPTB decide to continue with the evil congresswoman plot. that's not to say that there not going to be a twist to brody's case, but it can't be that unrealistic. they are still supposed to be functioning as teenagers to some degree. ooh, and good call on the B.E.M. i agree that it probably has something to do his past alien death.
By Reggie 10-14-2000, 08:12 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Qfanny: I don't think Tess as ever thought for herself and when she says "We need him" in the pod chamber, I think she is refering just to herself. I suspect Tess to be a gullable (sp) person/alien and needs someone to tell her what to think and feel. (...) Imagine what fun Harding had raising Tess. Telling her things that sounded wonderful and pumping her up for the mission... There is a lot Harding conventantly forgot to tell the podsters and I suspect what Tess says is the result of trying to figure out a meaning of sort... This probably makes no sense whatsoever and I feel like I'm typing without any particular point to prove. Maybe someone can help me out here. Sure. I think you've got a point about Tess. Harding was probably a very controling parent-surrogate, and so Tess grew up notably dependent on him for guidance. This is probably why she was so keen to subordinate herself to Max; he'd be a better leader / father-figure than Harding. Oh, as Palomino said: Bug Eyed Monster. Gee, considering your old personal icon, I'd thought you knew! <ducks thrown object> Hey, why'd you change it? I thought only Shapeshifter was going to do that.
By Lorrilei1960 10-14-2000, 11:25 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Kilrkrow: I'd like to take that theory a step further: What if the Skins are called so because they wear the skins of others? Either: a) with the host alive (i.e. as a symbiont (sp?)); or b) after killing their prospective host they literally wear it like a suit? a) has been done before, so hopefully it's nothing so simple. I like b), as it might explain why the Skins shed: the Skin might possess the ability to energize the flesh of a dead host for a short period of time, but as time progresses the hosts body dies slowly.. resulting in the shedding of cells the Skin can no longer reengergize. Whaddy'all think? I was kind of thinking along the same lines... but didn't have it worked out as well This might explain Harding/Nasedo's comment about the Skins having them for a boxed lunch!
By Qfanny 10-15-2000, 12:54 AM
quote:Originally posted
By Reggie: Sure. I think you've got a point about Tess. Harding was probably a very controling parent-surrogate, and so Tess grew up notably dependent on him for guidance. This is probably why she was so keen to subordinate herself to Max; he'd be a better leader / father-figure than Harding. Oh, as Palomino said: Bug Eyed Monster. Gee, considering your old personal icon, I'd thought you knew! <ducks thrown object> Hey, why'd you change it? I thought only [b]Shapeshifter was going to do that. [/B] Reggie, I thought that my original avatar was not available to me, but I found it. Hope you don't mind me shapeshifting back. I thought the arrows was a nice second choice, but as soon as I get my 1000 posts, I'm using that orb . I posted this thought on S&B but I'm not sure it's getting the views I want, so I'll bring it over here. Basically, I've been wondering why Michael didn't just change his fingerprints when he was pickup
By the police. It seems to me the only thing that linked him to the bones (that Deputy Hanson knows about) is the fingerprints. Assuming that his fingerprints changed back from Agent whatever his name was. I hope this is a valid point that we can bridge over here.
By Nemo 10-15-2000, 08:21 AM
quote:Originally posted
By Qfanny: ...I've been wondering why Michael didn't just change his fingerprints when he was pickup
By the police. It seems to me the only thing that linked him to the bones (that Deputy Hanson knows about) is the fingerprints.... Apparently his original fingerprints are already on file. (Perhaps through the foster-care system, or when he was jailed over Hank's disappearance.) That's how the knife was traced to him. Now, if he is ever caught in possession of fingerprints different from those on his records, his secret will be out.
By Go*fish 10-15-2000, 03:50 PM
Could it be that Michaels prints were on record from when he broke into the UFO Centre to get Atherton info? though Milton didn't press charges. Just a thought - could it be that Tess really is Nesedos daughter from the home planet? Did he switch Liz and Tess at birth to get a royal connection for himself? I agree with Samsons idea that Tess could be a servant. This might explain why Max had a definite connection with Liz when he saw her for the first time, and why Nesedo backed off so fast in the Pod chamber after he was revived and said (about Liz) "What's she doing here?" Max says "she's with me". Considering how scared the Podsters had been all season of having Nesedo find them, Max took the upper hand pretty fast. I really agree that Tic Tac and Nesedo are different people too. How many times did Tic Tac visit Roswell to cover up problems...Hank..Topolski etc. Yet in Destiny when Liz asks Tess "where is Nesedo?" Tess says she doesn't know, he's never left her this long before (Less than 24 hrs). Great Thread, you guys really know how to dissect a script!!
By Qfanny 10-15-2000, 06:59 PM
quote:Originally posted
By Nemo: Apparently his original fingerprints are already on file. (Perhaps through the foster-care system, or when he was jailed over Hank's disappearance.) That's how the knife was traced to him. Now, if he is ever caught in possession of fingerprints different from those on his records, his secret will be out. I had this all typed in and then AOL kicked me off. Nemo and everyone: OK, I still think that Michael changing his fingerprints would have gotten him out of jail on lack of evidance. As some suggested, Michael's fingerprints could have already have been on file. I suppose that's possible. But, the only time he ever could have been booked was back in 285S after Milton found him in the UFO center. Even this I question if prints were taken, because Milton dropped the charges. But suppose prints were taken. This was back when Michael was a minor and would be considered part of his juvy record. I'm not a lawyer, but I thought once you reached emancipation, all previous records are sealed. So, I really wonder if the Roswell PD had prints to cross reference against. (We don't know what happened in the summer, maybe Michael got arrested again.) Somehow, Hanson used the prints on the Swiss Army Knife to identify the owner as Michael. I don't know where he got those records, if it was from his juvy record or not. I still think that this may have been illegal and perhaps Michael could have been released on a technicality. (where was his lawyer anyway) Suppose Hanson did some profiling of sort and picked Michael among others as a possible owner. Hanson calls the "usual suspects" in and does a fingerprint test. Still, why wouldn't Michael just change his fingerprints. Even if they do have him on previous records, I think it would be easier to explain away that discreptancy as an office error or bad record keeping. The whole cyclotron plan is really bad. I guess I do see your point, but this seems to be a simplier solve than what actually happened. Reggie and Palomino: I noticed when Nasedo turned to dust that his clothes stayed in tact. I guess Reggie was right, Nasedo must have been cold. -clothes-buff-clothes-buff- LOL
By shapeshifter 10-15-2000, 10:29 PM
Hey Qf, I think you made a great case there. For me this seems to further implicate the newly over-zealous Deputy Hanson as a Skin victim: Recall Whitaker's tape of Pierce saying that Valenti was the key. And Valenti was on the list. So maybe Pierce was a Skin. How about if the Skins "kidnap" their victims and "inprison" them in skins. The old Skin peels off as a new forms because that's their whole body. So the real Pierce (who was an alien hunter) died, but the Skin Pierce slipped away. And Deputy Hanson may now be prisoner of the same Skin that had Pierce.
By Qfanny 10-16-2000, 04:17 PM
shapeshifter, have you seen my anagrams for Deputy Hanson? The anti-logical proof says that Hanson is part of Pierce's operation. DEPUTY HANSON = DONE A SPY HUNT DEPUTY HANSON = HAD ONE SPY NUT DEPUTY HANSON = HANDY SETUP. NO! DEPUTY HANSON = DANNY SETUP? OH! I especially like the Danny Setup, oh! anagram answer, because Pierce's first name was Daniel. You know, were was Hanson in this episode of Ask Not anyway???? You'd think with Dead Nasedo he'd be around. Another Roswell murder victim.
By bkwrm79-Stargazer 10-16-2000, 04:49 PM
Qfanny, your anagrams have convinced me. Good work! (who remains firmly convinced Brody is a Skin)
By overtherainbow31 10-16-2000, 05:32 PM
quote:Originally posted
By shapeshifter: Hey Qf, I think you made a great case there. For me this seems to further implicate the newly over-zealous Deputy Hanson as a Skin victim: Recall Whitaker's tape of Pierce saying that Valenti was the key. And Valenti was on the list. So maybe Pierce was a Skin. How about if the Skins "kidnap" their victims and "inprison" them in skins. The old Skin peels off as a new forms because that's their whole body. So the real Pierce (who was an alien hunter) died, but the Skin Pierce slipped away. And Deputy Hanson may now be prisoner of the same Skin that had Pierce.
If any of you have seen the movie "Fallen", this idea is similar. In the movie, the devil is able to transfer (for lack of a better word) himself from person to person, invading their body to do his evil bidding. Is this what you are saying, basically? Either way, your theory makes sense. OTR31
