The Science Fiction Of Leaving Normal
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LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-03-2000 06:57 PM
Tonight's episode revolves around the ideas of safety, normalicy, and risk-taking. Embedded in the relational matrix of Max and Liz's lives, however, are some interesing SF issues and concerns. Again--from our post-Destiny POV-- we might ask:
1. WHY IS MICHAEL SUDDENLY ADEPT AT EXERCISING HIS POWERS? In an effort to revenge Max's beating, Michael proves himself an able second-in-command in terms of his powers. (Of course he doesn't do so well in the "obedience to your leader" category does he?).
You know, it is interesting that Michael's control seems best when he is defending Max (here, The White Room, Destiny) or later Valenti (Destiny) or healing River Dog (Into the Woods). He doesn't do as well with Valenti's window, Maria's Jetta, or the objects at Hank's house. Is there a pattern we are missing here? Or is his powers simply sporadic? We can argue that by the end of the series Michael "learns"--but how do we explain his prowess in this episode?
BTW in rewatching the Pilot, did you note that alley scene where the three podsters face Maria and Liz? Michael steps up and confronts Liz himself...I couldn't help think of the Archangel Michael rising to protect the chosen one (Max)! While making a jock itch is not in the same noble category, it is done in "defense" of Max the beloved leader!
2. WHAT EXACTLY DID MAX DO (OR NOT DO) TO GRANDMA CLAUDIA? Max reports that he cannot heal Grandma, but perhaps he can help Liz say "good-bye". Is he successful? Was he responsible for that astral projection we saw? Or did he look as surprised as Liz? And why did he keep holding her hand? Was a connection necessary to support the continued presence of the apparation?
And exactly what WAS that holographic image? Is that what human "essence" looks like? Are we talking soul here? Personality? Spirit?
What?
3. WHAT IS GRANDMA CLAUDIA'S SIGNIFICANCE FOR THE BROADER ROSWELL STORYLINE? Aside from telling Liz to "follow her heart" (a not insignificant comment for Roswell's romantic myth) what is Claudia's function in the larger story? And what of her archaeological work? Do you think we are going to see that resurface in the Fall? We have seen a lot of connections in this series to native americans without really developing much of it. Fanfiction writers have a heyday with Grandma Claudia for this reason. As do people who try to make an identification of Liz (through Grandma Claudia) to the aliens.
Well folks--what do you think?
LSS
TheGoodNacedo
Level 3-Registered: Apr 2000-Posts: 218
07-03-2000 07:11 PM
Michael's powers seem to work when he really focuses. When he has something stuck in his head, especially when it involves anger, things work for him.
I think Max tried to wake Grandma Claudia, to say goodbye, then die. He seemed surprised when she appeared. He said sorry, as if it didn't work.
As for the Native-American theme, I would love to see it resurface in season 2!
Just my 2 cents.
Anthony
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-03-2000 07:20 PM
Hi Anthony!
You know, you are right--Tess told him in Destiny that he simply had to focus. But I wonder if anger (i.e. at Hank's) or fear (i.e., Valenti's window) or fear of embarrasment (Maria's car) isn't a key here? You mentioned that anger helped him to focus--do you think it might be the other way around? That emotions cloud his ability to focus?
Gosh--why did I just feel deja vu to the White Room (with Pierce telling Max that emotions were his weakness)? But it would explain why in tonight's eppy his powers were functioning--Michael wasn't simply mad--he was getting even!
LSS
jenlev
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 211
07-03-2000 07:25 PM
hi there,
re: michael's powers. it seems that when he is utilizing them to protect or avenge others he has increased access to them. perhaps when he is acting out of anger on his own behalf things go a bit haywire?
re: max and the holo-grandma. he did look surprised, as if he thought he'd failed...or was not exactly sure what he'd been setting out to do (to begin with)? given the probability that he hadn't tried this particular skill before it wouldn't surprise me if he had been attempting to establish some sort of connection: the results of which took him a bit off guard?
re: the image of grandma. i think it's hard to compartmentalise 'soul, personality, spirit and essence'. whatever allowed her to communicate with liz (and see max!) most likely involved all of her 'self'...and what that is made of. i'm going to have to sleep on this one.
interesting about the book. perhaps it will resurface when liz has some extra time on her hands during season 2? on another thread, someone mentioned it could contain some hints about the native pictograms and the alien symbology (sorry i can't recall who brought this up.)
did grandma have the opportunity to meet nasedo when he was on the reservation? if so, how did this effect her writings, and the message he left on the cave walls? this is far afield, and i'm too fried to follow it further.
jenlev
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-03-2000 07:37 PM
quote:
Originally posted by jenlev
hi there,
re: max and the holo-grandma.... it wouldn't surprise me if he had been attempting to establish some sort of connection: the results of which took him a bit off guard?
jenlev
jenlev--
When Max connects with Grandma we see the same black/white negative imaging that we see later when Max heals Kyle. This is different from the images Max sees when he heals Liz and the images Michael sees when he heals River Dog. What did you make of this?
Any ideas?
LSS
Fire and Ice
Level 3-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 152
07-03-2000 07:40 PM
About Michael's powers:
If any of you go to "The Cutting Room Floor" (www.roswellscripts.com) there is this scene that was cut out of Leaving Normal where Michael uses his powers to sperate coffee. and he says something about that in this mindset (I guess anger) that he can do stuff like that and control his powers, but it totally
contradicts that part is ID when he says that when he is angry he can't control his powers...hmmm... doesn't make much sense..maybe that is why they left it out.
Anyways My VCR is the spawn of Satan and it should burn in Hell for all eternity! It didn't record Leaving Normal!!!! I was right there watching the whole entire thing but it wasn't recording the right channel!!!!!!! I am soooooooo p*ssed off right now!!!! AHHHHH!!!!! I'm going insane!!!! Is there any one else who hates technology??? Sorry for being off topic!
*~leslie~*
GraceKel
Level 4-Registered: Dec 1999-Posts: 782
07-03-2000 07:41 PM
Hi LSS glad you started this thread. You knew I would be posting on this thread but I think this episode is so rich with hidden clues not just a little romantic episode like we might have originally thought.
What is Grandma Claudia's significance to the whole Alien Mythology well lets take a look---
The episode starts first with Maria and Liz questioning why would an orthodontist convention come to ROSWELL---hmmmm!
Then they go up to Gino the cook for their orders and Liz tells how her grandmother is coming on Friday, and Liz says that "GRANDMA IS THE BASIS OF MY EXISTENCE" What exactly does she mean? Is it a clue! There are definitely EARS in the kitchen to hear about GRANDMA coming.
As Liz brings her order over to the Ortho's table, one says "OH HERE SHE IS" and they all start admiring LIZ'S TEETH? The first order she puts down is some kind of VENUS SPECIAL(can't remember exact words). They are looking at her as if she were SPECIAL, don't you think?
Grandma Claudia shows up EARLY-I think lucky for her or I am not sure she would have visited with her granddaughter! She seems interested to see if Liz has found her SOULMATE-and proceeds to tell her that if it is not complicated he probably isn't a SOULMATE. We also lightly touch on Claudia's book, "LOST TREASURES" about the INDIANS. Are there any CLUES to be found in this book-will we touch upon this next season?
The whole conversation betw Kyle and Liz about the videos seems pointless except it mentions about a serial killer honing in on a retirement community and the next scene is Grandma being taken to the hospital--foul play? I think it could be. WHY? Because of what Liz might find out from her?
In the hospital room Liz tells her grandmother "HOW YOU ALWAYS MADE ME FEEL SO SPECIAL" (Did she know that Liz is SPECIAL?)
Grandma tells Liz to follow her heart and of course we know where that will take her don't we! Grandma says to Liz, "you remind me a lot of myself so EXCITED ABOUT LIFE", I could not help to go back to the PILOT after the healing when Liz says "I CAME TO LIFE" and talking about Grandma being so FULL OF LIFE. Is there a connection. There seems to be. Was Grandma once saved herself or is there some other connection.
There are more things but I will come back later.
jenlev
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 211
07-03-2000 07:46 PM
hi there,
lss: when max 'connects' to, or heals others perhaps the images recieved depend on the depth of intimacy (or wished for depth of intimacy) he feels for that person.
and if he feels reluctance or even repugnance about connecting with the person... say kyle... he might barely skim the surface and recieve very limited images etc.? also, if he is fearful, or uncertain of his task/goal that might also impact the depth of images recieved.
perhaps the same applies for 'making the connection go the other way'. given that he is portrayed as very guarded, he might automatically keep anything from others in the process. after all, he had to consciously work at making the connection go the other way with liz in the pilot.
jenlev
Palomino
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 198
07-03-2000 07:48 PM
Several things:
1. Grandma's death will eventually cause her belongings to be in the posessesion of her son, Jeff. Liz will probably start to go through them when she feels able (maybe when feeling melancholy after leaving Max), and may discover some important info conserning the Native Americans and the aliens.
2. Liz's mother seems to be a fair, blue-eyed red-head, and her father is dark, but has a blond, blue eyed mother.(I'm into heredity/genetics.) Aside from casting errors, this could be a clue pointing to a Native American being Jeff's father, Liz's grandfather, thus pulling her into perhaps Native American folklore/prophesy/visions. If the aliens have a similar connection to the Navajo, the relationship between Terrans and aliens may have been foretold long ago and is coming to fruition with these characters.
3. Max seemed unsure of what he was able to do for grandma, although he knew what he wanted to do. He seemed as surprised as Liz at the projection, and some people have suggested before that he was making her see the image Tess-style. He had gotten limited images from Liz when he saved her, and probably could not reproduce convincingly her grandmother's, personality, voice, speech pattern, and use of "Honey Bear" - because he never does really meet her.
4. Interesting that others have also noticed Michael's powers are most effective when defending others - perhaps a built-in personality trait, an alien cast system where his role is protector, or he simply lacks the ability to focus if it is for himself (poor self-esteem). Then again, maybe he is just more practiced at using his powers for mischief - considering his upbringing.
Eowyn
Level 2-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 98
07-03-2000 07:54 PM
1. WHY IS MICHAEL SUDDENLY ADEPT AT EXERCISING HIS POWERS? In an effort to revenge Max's beating, Michael proves himself an able second-in-command in terms of his powers. (Of course he doesn't do so well in the "obedience to your leader" category does he?).
I agree with you that it seems that Michael can exercise his powers the best when it is to help out someone he cares about. In Destiny when Michael said that his powers are bad because they were used to kill and Max heals this got me thinking are Michael's powers bad or are the situations he has to use them different. Michael killed and wanted to kill Pierce to protect the ones he cvared for the same way in tonight's ep how Michael didn't want Kyle's friends to get away with hurting Max. I am hoping the series dwells more into Michael's powers and how it effects him and what they really mean and is there really a contrast between Max's power to heal and Michael's power to kill when neccesary to protect?
2. WHAT EXACTLY DID MAX DO (OR NOT DO) TO GRANDMA CLAUDIA? Max reports that he cannot heal Grandma, but perhaps he can help Liz say "good-bye". Is he successful? Was he responsible for that astral projection we saw? Or did he look as surprised as Liz? And why did he keep holding her hand? Was a connection necessary to support the continued presence of the apparation?
And exactly what WAS that holographic image? Is that what human "essence" looks like? Are we talking soul here? Personality? Spirit?
What?
I loved how the show didn't get Max to heal grandma because like he said he isn't God, I loved how they showed a limitation to his powers. Even so Max by saving Liz did stop a natural occurence even if Liz was young was Max really right to decide that she should live. Anyways to answer your question in both the pilot and this ep I see that Max plays the part of Liz's angel (figuratively speaking of course) He is always there for her in her most dire need, perhaps that is why Liz's heart led her to call Max. And I do think Max was the one who projected Grandma Claudia's Soul (at least that is what I thought) at first she didn't appear right away and that is why I think Max said sorry and then was stunned when it happened because I imagine that this was the first time he tried something like this and he wasn't sure if it would work but it did.
3. WHAT IS GRANDMA CLAUDIA'S SIGNIFICANCE FOR THE BROADER ROSWELL STORYLINE? Aside from telling Liz to "follow her heart" (a not insignificant comment for Roswell's romantic myth) what is Claudia's function in the larger story? And what of her archaeological work? Do you think we are going to see that resurface in the Fall? We have seen a lot of connections in this series to native americans without really developing much of it. Fanfiction writers have a heyday with Grandma Claudia for this reason. As do people who try to make an identification of Liz (through Grandma Claudia) to the aliens.
I think I agree with Jenlev that grandma's book could come up again to explain certain symbols the podsters come across.
Luv Always,
Eowyn
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-03-2000 07:55 PM
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
The whole conversation betw Kyle and Liz about the videos seems pointless except it mentions about a serial killer honing in on a retirement community and the next scene is Grandma being taken to the hospital--foul play? I think it could be. WHY? Because of what Liz might find out from her?
Hi GraceKel:
That IS interesting. I am a firm believer that our writers/directors juxtapose ideas/images so that causal connections are made in the viewers minds (whether we pick up on these consciously or not). The video's title was something like XXX at sunset village (Geesh--you'd never believe I got that title right in the trivia contest at one of the gatherings would you?) Anyway it is curious that we see Grandma Claudia being taken to the hospital right after that.
You know, we could carry our paranoia a bit further. Didn't it seem like the doctor was intially VERY hopeful? And then things went downhill rather quickly. And I don't think we were told of any prior heart condition. And--of course--the ultimate paranoid trajectory of all this might reach back to a certain gunshot in an alien theme cafe!
You know--I don't think Chris Carter (X-files) could have done better that what you hinted at GraceKel! I wonder if the truth will be out there in the fall?
LSS
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-03-2000 08:24 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Fire and Ice
About Michael's powers:
If any of you go to "The Cutting Room Floor" (www.roswellscripts.com) there is this scene that was cut out of Leaving Normal where Michael uses his powers to sperate coffee. and he says something about that in this mindset (I guess anger) that he can do stuff like that and control his powers, but it totally contradicts that part is ID when he says that when he is angry he can't control his powers...hmmm... doesn't make much sense..maybe that is why they left it out.
Leslie:
Thanks for relating that info! You are right...in a show noted for its inconsistencies it looks like someone in the cutting room headed this one off! I think it is fascinating to see what didn't make it into the final product! Thanks again to Karola and ETAmerican for that wonderful site (ahem...that IS the site you are referring to isn't it? I hope I haven't misspoken!).
LSS
Shee
Level 3-Registered: Dec 1999-Posts: 224
07-03-2000 09:52 PM
As to Michael and his powers, he seems to better control them when in use to defend others, except in Independence Day, during the confrontation with Hank over Isabel. Just refer back to that whirlwind in the trailer with Hank's gun going off. If it is a focus issue, how does he ignore all the distractions?
As to Grandma Claudia's appearance outside of her body, Max seemed taken off guard, and not surprising as this was another first time attempt. But he seemed to be more of a conduit, not controlling what Grandma had to say, but keeping the proverbial 'lines' open. Once the conversation ended, Grandma's spirit' disappeared and you heard the flatline.
Shee
shapeshifter
Level 3-Registered: May 2000-Posts: 346
07-03-2000 10:54 PM
A most significant piece is the fact that Grandma Claudia would not have had the opportunity to meet Max and tell Liz to follow her heart if she had not come "early." This assumes, of course, that it was (to quote Max) "her time" to die.
There were a lot of other necessary bits to make this happen, such as Isabel encouraging Max to 'be there' for Liz.
If GC's doctor in this appearance is Nacedo, (as suggested on another thread), perhaps he either tried to prevent or allow GC's message to be heard by Liz.
Also, it is in this ep that Max makes it clear to Michael that saving Liz's life was not an option; it was a given. Since we now know this is the Leader speaking, it colors everything else.
Lorrilei1960
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 280
07-03-2000 11:41 PM
I agree with the thought that Max was acting more as a conduit for GC's spirit,essence, whatever. He did seem to have to make quite an effort to do it, perhaps because he wasn't quite sure of what he was doing.
I also noticed the bits with Michael's powers...it actually caught me off guard because I had forgotten about it. I do think that his ability to control and focus have everything to do with his emotional state... he doesn't focus as well when he is upset or being distracted in some way.
Now for a new point to ponder....
Max says "I'm not God." Interesting statement. Do you think he was just throwing out a comment, or do you think that he truly meant it? In other words, do our aliens have a spiritual side? Do they believe in God? It is a theme that crops up in sci-fi... the existence of God and what it means to man, and the idea of other life forms.
Other than this particular statement by Max (and of course, the ever popular "oh my God"s), I don't think ANY character has brought up anything theological (unless you count the Native American sweat ceremony).
rocklowery
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 120
07-03-2000 11:50 PM
I think Michael is better at controlling his powers because he is channelling his anger/fear/emotions more constructively, focusing more on the situation at hand. The instances where his powers seem to go awry are when he is afraid (ie. at Hanks), feels pressured to do something (Maria's car), or gets flustered (Valenti's window-he was successful but was under a tight deadline). His self-confidence also plays a big part in his successful attempts; he's not focussing on what others may think and so is not as self-conscious of his actions.
The special Liz is serving to the Orthodontists is a Venus Meatloaf special. I think the orthodontists focussing on Liz's specialness was strictly to show how even in these type of professions, you get your fanatics. An orthodontists version of a "Trekkie" as it were. Maybe Frakes was just having some fun with it
There was one thing I noticed that I hadn't noticed in my myriad viewings of this episode: in the scene where Liz and Maria are talking in the school lounge, there is a "Change" machine behind them. Could this sign have any significance or be a precursor for things to come?
And finally Grandma Claudia. I like the idea of Max being a conduit for her. Maybe she was able to utilize his skills to speak to Liz one last time. I also found it unusual that Liz could actually feel her touch when GC reached out to her. Did anybody notice if she touched her face in the same place that Max did when he reversed the connection? She also definitely knew that Max was an alien as indicated by her telling Liz to follow her heart WHEREEVER it may lead her. I also think that her connection to the Native Americans is significant. They seemed to make a big deal about her book being the first research into this topic in over a hundred years (not an exact quote, but something to that effect). She was also very focussed on the soulmate issue.
shapeshifter
Level 3-Registered: May 2000-Posts: 346
07-03-2000 11:50 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
Now for a new point to ponder....
Max says "I'm not God." Interesting statement. Do you think he was just throwing out a comment, or do you think that he truly meant it? In other words, do our aliens have a spiritual side? Do they believe in God? It is a theme that crops up in sci-fi... the existence of God and what it means to man, and the idea of other life forms.
Other than this particular statement by Max (and of course, the ever popular "oh my God"s), I don't think ANY character has brought up anything theological (unless you count the Native American sweat ceremony).
That line also jumped out at me the first time it aired, but I assumed it was because 30 years ago when I looked like Liz and practically worshipped my boyfriend, he said the same thing to me. In LN, I think it's supposed to be fairly casual, an indication of the culture they live in, and perhaps the writer's way of both making a distinction about the alien powers, and perhaps a little bit of self-expression vis a vis the whole pop-culture-TV-Show-stardom thing.
Hawn grl
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 143
07-04-2000 03:58 AM
Hi Palomino,
I just wanted to address something that you mentioned about Liz's mother being blue-eyed and her father being dark. If I'm not mistaken I swear Liz's father also has blue eyes. Since you are into genetics I know that you must know that two parents with blue eyes cannot produce a child with brown eyes, I mean the probablity of that happening is 0%, (of course unless there's a mutation on that particular gene which seems highly improbable, perhaps a frameshift mutation?) though two parents with brown eyes could very well produce a child with blue eyes, as long as both parents possess a recessive allele for blue colored eyes and both donate their recessive allele to their offspring. It could be as you suggested, a casting error, or it could be that Liz may not be their biological child because she has brown eyes.
Wouldn't it be interesting to find out that Liz may not be a "true" Parker but may have been adopted by Jeff&Nancy with the help of grandma Claudia's presence in the Navajo community. That could explain Liz's connection to Max and how he seemed drawn to her in the third grade. I don't know! I think I'm just trying to pull things from the air. It probably was a casting error!
quote:
Originally posted by Palomino
Liz's mother seems to be a fair, blue-eyed red-head, and her father is dark, but has a blond, blue eyed mother.(I'm into heredity/genetics.) Aside from casting errors, this could be a clue pointing to a Native American being Jeff's father, Liz's grandfather, thus pulling her into perhaps Native American folklore/prophesy/visions. If the aliens have a similar connection to the Navajo, the relationship between Terrans and aliens may have been foretold long ago and is coming to fruition with these characters.
[Edited by Hawn grl on 07-04-2000 at 04:02 AM]
pixiedude
Level 2-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 67
07-04-2000 04:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
What is Grandma Claudia's significance to the whole Alien Mythology well lets take a look---
The episode starts first with Maria and Liz questioning why would an orthodontist convention come to ROSWELL---hmmmm!
Until I read this, I thought that the orthodontists' convention was just for laughs. However, teeth and jaws are important in physical anthropology and forensic science. Many extinct species are known only by their teeth, because these are the most durable parts of a body. Teeth and jaws would be valuable to anyone who thought they had evidence of a new hominid species. So perhaps Grandma Claudia was planning on showing evidence of her research to one of the conventioneers? They never say why GC decided to come to town early. The pod squad have skillfully avoided blood tests all these years. Do they have dental records?
quote:
Then they go up to Gino the cook for their orders and Liz tells how her grandmother is coming on Friday, and Liz says that "GRANDMA IS THE BASIS OF MY EXISTENCE" What exactly does she mean? Is it a clue! There are definitely EARS in the kitchen to hear about GRANDMA coming.
I hadn't thought about the cook before, but there was more info about Liz's family life than I've ever seen in any of the eps. When Liz says, "Grandma is the basis of my existence!" and Maria says something about going through Grandma Claudia withdrawal, it seems like GC must visit fairly often. Or else Liz is more socially isolated than I'd thought. That just seems like more closeness than anyone I know who wasn't raised by their grandparents would express.
Mrs. Parker's barely restrained antipathy towards GC puzzled me. There seemed to be this under-discussion of Liz as a sexual being. GC burbling about how popular Liz must be with boys, and Mrs. Parker hissing about how you'd never know it from talking to her. Mrs. Parker's anger is unmistakeable, but I couldn't figure out if she meant, No, Liz is such a dork that no male is interested in her, or, any day now the little tart's going to come home with a bun in the oven. I recognize this kind of global anger parents often have towards their teenaged daughters, but I don't understand it.
The big mystery about the Parkers, though, is how they run the restaurant. OK, not exactly a scifi topic. But I've noticed that they own a successful restaurant, and from what I've known of family-owned establishments like that, the parents would be there working 12-16 hour days. Especially considering how much time Liz spends on the job, and her responsibilities (eg, the color-coded staff schedules), it seems like they're
depending on her to manage their business.
Grandma's book: last seen in Liz's bedroom. So far, we don't even know if she's opened it. It looked like a proof edition in a nice binder rather than a published volume. Liz said that GC was going to publish an article based on the book in the American Journal of Anthropology, but we don't know if GC had already mailed it off. So it's possible that her own MS copy and notes at home are the only record of her findings, besides the book she gave Liz. I'd like to see someone try to use info from GC's book to decode the book of Tess.
More odd bits that may mean nothing:
1) There's a scene in the hospital where Liz is looking through a window into the room where the staff is trying to resuscitate GC. Two white lights reflect off the glass inside the room. Then a third begins to flash on and off. They form a roughly equilateral triangle, with the apex pointing up. Triangles have come up here and there. Do you think this one means anything?
2)When Liz calls Max from a hospital pay phone, we see a flyer for an upcoming staff softball game. For one thing, it's in an unlikely location. I'd expect it to be somewhere near the staff lounge, as staff members would be unlikely to use the public pay phones. Others have said that the "Radiology vs Neurology" headline is evidence that GC was the victim of foul play, specifically, that some kind of radiation caused her stroke. What I noticed was, there's an illustration of a jackrabbit next to "Radiology", and one of a coyote next to "Neurology." Have rabbits ever come up again? Think it means anything, or just looked cool?
3)I've already posted this to the thread about whether the aliens are here to save humans or not, but it belongs here too:
There's a scene where Micheal watches through an opening in an artsy staircase as one of the jocks he bumped into starts scratching. As the camera focusses on the jock, a song by Smashmouth comes up with the lyrics, "You are the few, the proud, the antibodies..." and goes on to say something about the end of the world. I don't know how carefully they pay attention to the lyrics of the songs they use, and how much they just pick something with the right mood (and a sponsor's CD). I wondered about the antibodies analogy. Antibodies are made by an organism's immune response to a disease-causing agent. If the podsters are the antibodies, and the bad aliens are the disease-causing agent, what's the organism that made antibodies to defend itself? I was thinking, humans from the future, perhaps that's what the Roswell "aliens" were, bringing the antibodies into the past to repel an invasion by actual extraterrestrials in its earliest stages. In that scenario, momogram is pretty suspicious.
4)GC again: citizen's arrest. Mr. Parker tells a story of how GC single-handedly took 3 armed poachers into custody. He doesn't say how long ago this happened. If GC was already a senior citizen at the time, perhaps she was able to shame them into coming along peacefully. But I have a hard time seeing that. I once read an article about citizen's arrest, and it emphasized that you should never attempt to take into custody someone who can overpower you, because they probably will try. Could GC have used some kind of paranormal power to subdue them?
pixiedude
Level 2-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 67
07-04-2000 04:22 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Hawn grl
Hi Palomino,
I just wanted to address something that you mentioned about Liz's mother being blue-eyed and her father being dark. If I'm not mistaken I swear Liz's father also has blue eyes.
[Edited by Hawn grl on 07-04-2000 at 04:02 AM]
I haven't noticed the eye colors, but from what I've read on the boards,
1)a different actor plays Mr. Parker in later eps. The guy tonight, and in the pilot, is "cowpunk" singer John Doe.
2)River Dog appears to have blue eyes as well, although it may be cloudiness from cataracts.
One funny thing I thought of after Destiny, and the whole Micheal and Isabel subplot: Max and Liz look like they could easily be brother and sister, as do Micheal and Isabel. Who knows if it was intentional, but their build and coloring is similar.
Palomino
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 198
07-04-2000 06:44 AM
Hawn grl : I just checked out the eye color of Liz's parents again. Dad is definately blue, so he carries no brown. Mom is a light color(Ihad thought blue at first glance), but I can't make it out. Even if it were light brown, that would not explain Liz's very dark eyes. Probably just a casting blooper, but you never know. Have you noticed the preceeding show, "Seventh Heaven"? Take a look at those parents and kids!(But maybe she's not a natural blond.)
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-04-2000 08:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
Max says "I'm not God." Interesting statement. Do you think he was just throwing out a comment, or do you think that he truly meant it? In other words, do our aliens have a spiritual side? Do they believe in God? It is a theme that crops up in sci-fi... the existence of God and what it means to man, and the idea of other life forms.
You bring up an interesting point Lorrilei. You know, SF is sometimes imaged as antagonistic to religion (as if the Religion vs. Science Debate extends to its fictional counterpart). But at other times it explores various aspects of religion (Ray Bradbury was expecially good at this--his short story "The Man" and his poem "Christus Apollo" are good examples).
We have really had no inkling of a religious subtext in this story -- other than the messianic / hero theme that focuses on Max and the save the planet/s (if we postulate that earth may need help too) mandate.
But Max does say that he is "not" God. Whether this implies that he does believe in God or that his personal system of values prohibits him from acting as the ultimate authority over life and death is not clear.
Religion could be a thorny issue for Roswell to take on, however, and I'm not sure I want them to "go there" other than in a vaguely general sense. But the issue of "soul" may well come up due to the twist in our new story arc. And where soul is discussed...you are firmly into the religious.
It has been said of humankind that we are "homo religiosis" ... I wonder if you can say that about the beings behind those blinking lights at the end of Destiny?
LSS
anothertrinity
Level 1
Registered: May 2000-Posts: 6
07-04-2000 09:01 AM
Why does Max know that it was Gramma Claudia's time? (and not Kyle's or Liz's?) It can't be as sophmoric as their ages.
I was thinking there might be a BacktotheFuture concept going here. Certainly in Kyle's case we could argue that Max "disrupted" the normal sequence of events that ended up with Kyle getting shot. I wonder if evidence could be found that Max's presence at the Crashdown in the pilot meant that Liz was standing in a different place in the room, etc... and therefore Max in a somewhat backhanded way was responsible for both of their deaths and therefore feels compelled (perhaps subconsciously) to heal them.
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-04-2000 09:15 AM
Your first post on the board? Welcome to our cyber community (and to the SF of [episode] threads)!!!
quote:
Originally posted by anothertrinity
Why does Max know that it was Gramma Claudia's time? (and not Kyle's or Liz's?) It can't be as sophmoric as their ages.
I was thinking there might be a BacktotheFuture concept going here. Certainly in Kyle's case we could argue that Max "disrupted" the normal sequence of events that ended up with Kyle getting shot. I wonder if evidence could be found that Max's presence at the Crashdown in the pilot meant that Liz was standing in a different place in the room, etc... and therefore Max in a somewhat backhanded way was responsible for both of their deaths and therefore feels compelled (perhaps subconsciously) to heal them.
VERY INTERESTING. It may be interesting to note what Kyle and Liz and the situation which brought about their near death have in common in comparison to Claudia and what this might imply:
1) BOTH are young...and as you noted Claudia is not. [IMPLICATION: AGE IS THE CRUCIAL FACTOR]
2) BOTH are in the presence of Max when disaster befalls them...Claudia is not. [IMPLICATION: MAX'S PRESENCE EITHER CONTRIBUTES TO WHAT HAPPEN AND THUS FEELS DUTY BOUND TO HEAL THEM (YOUR IDEA) OR THAT THERE IS SIMPLE A TIME FACTOR INVOLVED CONCERNING MAX' ACCESS TO THE BODIES.]
3) BOTH are shot...Claudia has a stroke. [IMPLICATION: BEING SHOT IS AN EXTERNAL FACTOR THAT INTERRUPTS THE NORMAL EBB AND FLOW OF LIFE; HAVING A STROKE IS INTERNAL AND A NATURAL PROBLEM FACED IN THE LIFE CYCLE].
What do you posters/lurkers think?
Thanks for bringing this up ... it is an important fact in the episode to question. And again, welcome to the boards!
LSS
SF
Level 2-Registered: Dec 1999-Posts: 94
07-04-2000 09:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by pixiedude
Mrs. Parker's barely restrained antipathy towards GC puzzled me. There seemed to be this under-discussion of Liz as a sexual being. GC burbling about how popular Liz must be with boys, and Mrs. Parker hissing about how you'd never know it from talking to her. Mrs. Parker's anger is unmistakeable, but I couldn't figure out if she meant, No, Liz is such a dork that no male is interested in her, or, any day now the little tart's going to come home with a bun in the oven. I recognize this kind of global anger parents often have towards their teenaged daughters, but I don't understand it.
Hey pixiedude,
I had a slightly different read to you. Mrs. Parker's antipathy didn't really surprise me. GC is "the mother-in-law," seldom an easy relationship, plus, as Liz's mother, I think she felt a little hurt and left out that they can talk so easily together. It looked to me like she did want to go upstairs and have a "girl talk," but she knew that if she did, Liz would clam up. Liz and her Mom's relationship looks like a pretty stereotypical take on the mom - teen daughter relationship, a nice antitheisis to Isabel and her adoptive Mom's relationship. Like others have already noted, it's Liz's relationship with GC that I found out of the ordinary.
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-04-2000 10:23 AM
quote:
Originally posted by pixiedude
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
2...What I noticed was, there's an illustration of a jackrabbit next to "Radiology", and one of a coyote next to "Neurology." Have rabbits ever come up again? Think it means anything, or just looked cool?
3)There's a scene where Micheal watches through an opening in an artsy staircase as one of the jocks he bumped into starts scratching... I wondered about the antibodies analogy. Antibodies are made by an organism's immune response to a disease-causing agent. If the podsters are the antibodies, and the bad aliens are the disease-causing agent, what's the organism that made antibodies to defend itself? I was thinking, humans from the future, perhaps that's what the Roswell "aliens" were, bringing the antibodies into the past to repel an invasion by actual extraterrestrials in its earliest stages. In that scenario, momogram is pretty suspicious.
You know I don't know any reference to rabbits in the show (in the book--yes--Adam almost kills a rabbit with his powers). But now that you mention it we have seen coyotes before (remember the howls in SF in the desert). Of course the coyote is a trickster figure in Native American mythology. But whether any of this is significant -- or just normal given that we are in New Mexico,I don't know. What do you think pixiedude?
As for the time travel/earth theory. How would you explain the images of the crash that Liz gets when kissing Max. If our podsters were from the future (earth/future) then travel would be simply backwards--unless they have (in the future) been forced to flee from earth.
LSS
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-04-2000 11:56 AM
quote:
Originally posted by rocklowery
And finally Grandma Claudia. I like the idea of Max being a conduit for her. Maybe she was able to utilize his skills to speak to Liz one last time. I also found it unusual that Liz could actually feel her touch when GC reached out to her. Did anybody notice if she touched her face in the same place that Max did when he reversed the connection? She also definitely knew that Max was an alien as indicated by her telling Liz to follow her heart WHEREEVER it may lead her. I also think that her connection to the Native Americans is significant. They seemed to make a big deal about her book being the first research into this topic in over a hundred years (not an exact quote, but something to that effect). She was also very focussed on the soulmate issue.
rocklowery: (BTW how did you arrive at that user name?)
Good observation--you are right and I had never noticed that before. she is able to "feel" much like fanfic writers assume that Isabel can "feel" in dreamwalking (I don't think we've ever seen proof of that in the TV series but we have in the books and fanfic universes).
And I think you are right about the book too. Dialogue should contain nothing that is not functional--that is working to some greater end in the story (either to clarify characterization, to create mood, to move the plot along, etc.). But that extraneous detail about the book really doesn't "do" anything. I mean, it is not like we are trying to establish Claudia's academic credentials! Why would we need to know about the uniqueness of her work? And you know, if I remember correctly, wasn't her work with the Nav. tribe? Isn't that a different tribe than the one to which River Dog belongs?
In X-files the Nav. tribe play an ongoing role in the show's SF conspiracy framework.
Well if the truth is out there maybe one of you will uncover it!
LSS
throswell
Level 2-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 61
07-04-2000 12:04 PM
I don't know if this has to do with the science fiction necessarily but at the end of the episode Liz says "sometimes your heart takes you to places that can never lead to a happy ending." Is/was this a prophecy of what is going to happen in her relationship with Max--that they won't have a happy ending? I hope not.
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-04-2000 12:20 PM
Well--in a way that comment can operate on a number of different levels:
1) alien/human relationship are by their nature destined to encounter huge obstacles (thank you Mr. Katims, we have his word on this one); or
2) an allusion to the other-worldy Romeo and Juliet analogy (and we all know how that ended); or
3) even at that stage in the plot it was inevitable that the M/L relationship could not "remain happily ever after" for long.
You know there is no way that you can take that comment and construe it as positive! A friend of my once said (Tepp are you out there still), that M/L could not be "happily ever after" until the show's last episode because a show about relationships has to have drama/tension to move it along. I guess we will all (M/L shippers that is) just have to sustain ourselves on the snippets of happiness we get from time to time!
BTW--one nice thing that might happen is if they put more focus on the SF and away from the relationships we may get to have them be happier for longer periods of time. I know, I know, NO ONE likes that idea...not even me.
LSS
PuddyDayTat
Level 1
Registered: May 2000-Posts: 22
07-04-2000 12:40 PM
What is the possibility that when Max said "I'm sorry", he had connected to GC at the moment of her death. He kept getting flashes of a blinding light, I think it frightened him. He could have connected right as her spirit/soul was departing her earthly body.
I don't think Max fabricated the scene, I think the grandmother used him to talk to Liz and that was accomplished because he was holding GC's hand. After the apparition disappears you then hear the monitor flat line.
About the time to die issue, Max could heal Liz and Kyle because they were both shot and the bullets where something he could disolve, and with his power he can heal damage to internal organs that is caused by an object. A stroke is something completely different.
The main thing that caught my attention was how fast the bruises and cuts on Max's face healed. What was the timeframe for this episode 3-4 days?
PDT
jenlev
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 211
07-04-2000 12:46 PM
hi there,
lss: it seems like the common factor that allows max to intervene in healing someone is that there is a medical trauma caused by human (or alien?) action.
this aspect of the story seems to solidify the fact that max doesn't see himself as all powerful. whatever god he was referring to (from whatever tradition etc.) it makes a powerful point about the fundamental personality structure of max.
it's not surprising that max would have a concept of religion and/or spirituality. he's had a lot of time to be introspective about some very deep, existential issues, especially given his personality type/presentation. also, he has been brought up human. i'm guessing that despite michael and isabel's 'surface' presentation that they have too. i wonder how much that factor impacts their use of the 'powers'?
about 'feeling' in a dreamwalk, or when liz is saying goodby to her grandmother: perhaps the idea or sensation of being able to feel is the brain's way of translating the information coming in from the connection being made with the other person?
regarding the navaho and other tribe language (etc) connection: it's unclear at this point what the origin of liz's grandmother's work was. regardless, one could reasonably expect that there would be interaction of some kind between the native tribes which would show up in story, symbol, myth, and writing?
about following one's heart to a happy ending: this show does a good job of capturing the fact that real life isn't either or, but usually more ambiguous. still, i'd like to see some kind of happy process or ending. given the fact that it's science fiction and tv, perhaps the defenition of 'happy' needs to be redefined to include the toleration of loss and distress... a good enough ending?
jenlev
ps. about the flashes when max connected with liz's grandmother: perhaps he was getting glimses of her awareness or etc? if he had recieved glimses of memories i imagine he would have told liz? i've read that people who are in comas often can hear even if they can't respond, and often retain some level of awareness even if they seem completely out of it. i also think the image was not 'fabricated' by max, but that he was able to act as a bridge so liz and her grandmother could communicate. especially given max and liz's connection?
[Edited by jenlev on 07-04-2000 at 12:51 PM]
Nemo
Level 3-Registered: Dec 1999-Posts: 411
07-04-2000 12:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS
A friend of my once said ... that M/L could not be "happily ever after" until the show's last episode ....
Can't you just imagine the creators of the show saying to themselves at the outset: When we run out of obstacles for Max and Liz, it's all over. So let's think of all the obstacles that might be useful, so we can put in the hooks. Then we'll work through them starting with the easiest ones.
* She already has a boyfriend.
* It's not safe.
* They might be too different.
* He has prior obligations/entanglements? ....
Are there hints in this episode of obstacles yet to be revealed? Possibly:
* Max and Liz are somehow associated with opposite sides in some longstanding conflict, like Romeo and Juliet? "I saw Max today and he treated me like I was his enemy...."
* If the podsters are alien/human hybrids and we aren't told the source of the human material (Grandma C. for some of it? Liz kept remarking that she was "full of life"), maybe Max on his human side will turn out to be too closely related to Liz? "You're dating yourself...."
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-04-2000 01:05 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nemo
quote:
Are there hints in this episode of obstacles yet to be revealed?
Hi Nemo...
That is a good question and i liked the possibilities you raised! Some other are:
1) Those rashes/glowing hickies we saw in SH are really signs of biological incompatibility (we'll have to find some way to overcome these then!)
2) While conception might be possible between species...gestation and birth are extremely difficult (fanfics have played with this for some time now)
3) Believing she is doing this for Max's own good, Liz gets a new boyfriend (thus we repeat the Kyle thing with a new face)
BTW--the show COULD start next fall with a sign on the screen October XX, 2002...and pick up two years in the future thus eliminating the HS thing entirely and have our teens in college...that would give us all sorts of new obstacles to face.
LSS
Nemo
Level 3-Registered: Dec 1999-Posts: 411
07-04-2000 01:16 PM
quote:
Originally posted by pixiedude
Max and Liz look like they could easily be brother and sister....
There's that picture in Liz's room (seen between her and Grandma during the "soulmate" talk): doesn't it resemble those images of Max on first meeting Liz (in third grade)? Perhaps it's Alex, but that friendship didn't start until fifth grade. So maybe it's a childhood picture of her father?
[Edited by Nemo on 07-04-2000 at 03:06 PM]
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-04-2000 01:42 PM
Okay guys...
If I didn't like Tess I SO do not like the brother/sister theory.
Nemo--if it proves that the two ARE closely related it could explain the two-way ability to receive flashes. But you know--it wouldn't simply be a obstacle...not even a "huge" one...it would demolish the romantic storyline between M/L. It is not by accident that even the neo-babylonians (and other ancient cultures) had incest taboos in their legal collections. I don't know that the audience could survive anything closer than 2nd cousin--and I'm not sure you could get it past the network censors either!
But it is an intriguing idea. And I do think that Max and Liz look a lot alike. One cute fanfic, BTW, had Max "receiving" an image of Liz's dreamguy when he first met her and slowly over the years had him transforming himself to match that image. Awwww! I like that better!
LSS
Lorrilei1960
Level 3-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 280
07-04-2000 01:58 PM
Max and Liz siblings? Oh, no,no,no,no,no!!! Just because they have similar dark coloring (as do a HUGE percentage of our population) does not make them siblings... or even possible cousins. Liz's dark coloring comes from her dad's side of the family (obviously) who more than likely inherited it from his father. If we talk about the coloring factor, Isabel and Michael look more like siblings... tall, blonde, statuesque build. I know everyone is trying to tie GC into the alien thing, but I don't see her as Max's grandma.
I also wanted to comment about the Liz and her mom. Each mother/daughter have their own dynamic. Lots of girls (teenage especially) have a difficult time talking to their mothers about sex, etc. I think Grandma Claudia's personality made it so much easier for Liz to confide in her than her mother, and the point of that whole scene was to show us the "specialness" of Liz's relationship with Claudia, and the specialness of Claudia herself.
Nemo
Level 3-Registered: Dec 1999-Posts: 411
07-04-2000 02:29 PM
I hasten to add that I do not suggest specifically a brother-sister relationship; I see what you mean, that would ruin things. (Apparently I made that quote look too specific. I meant it more generically, and to acknowledge that others have noticed some similarity.) So let's please don't call it a theory, since no one is proposing it.
[Edited by Nemo on 07-04-2000 at 03:30 PM]
Eowyn
Level 2-Registered: Jun 2000-Posts: 98
07-04-2000 03:21 PM
Max and Liz siblings: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Max and Liz soulmates/lovers
LSS
Level 5-Registered: Feb 2000-Posts: 1164
07-04-2000 04:05 PM
Nemo:
Whew! Glad you weren't going "there"!
BTW--did we ever discuss the exact function of the "alien essence" referred to in "Destiny"? Since we've been talking above about aliens & ancestry, and since Nesedo/Harding in The White Room told Michael that his powers were simply those of advanced humanity...then what precisely does "alien essence" do?
The reason I bring this up now is because we've been talking about Liz and possible connections to the aliens (at least some folk connect GC to the aliens and thus to Liz).
BUT just what is "alien" about our podsters? What does this "essence" do? Does Liz already have part of Max's? Or will she if they ever "do it"? Will Max's sperm convey both human and alien elements?
Remember the old original "altered Liz" theory on the SF of SH thread? We originally toyed with the idea of some type of transfer that altered Liz physically. But White Room/Destiny put a wrench in that theory by "humanizing" our podsters' powers. Aside from advancing Liz' dev., there is not much that we could use (scientifically) to support that altered theory. Unless we understand that alien essence contaminates/changes that which it becomes close to (mentally/physically)--but it would be nice to understand just where it resides in our podsters, and what its function is wouldn't it (other than to mark them as OTHER that is!).
LSS
Nemo
Level 3-Registered: Dec 1999-Posts: 411
07-04-2000 04:13 PM
Pixiedude, I liked your list of "odd things." Next time I'll watch for that triangle of lights. The "artsy staircase" reminded me of the lightening holes often seen in aerospace structures. The "antibodies" tune sounds significant. (My wife laughed when she noticed that one.) I also think that story about Grandma subduing the hunters is significant; there was something formidable about Grandma before the stroke made her vulnerable.
Thank you for the details about the coyote and the rabbit on the Radiology vs. Neurology sign. That sign was the first thing that made me take seriously the possibility that Grandma was murdered. The onset of the stroke sounded natural enough, but there seem to be a great many clues suggesting that the relapse was induced by a Nasedo-like radiant-energy attack, though of a more subtle kind, leaving no mark. The coyote (plus the associated musical motif someone mentioned) suggests Nasedo, so perhaps the rabbit suggests that Grandma is normally alert and elusive. In her prime she was more than a match for those hunters, but in the end perhaps that serial killer caught up with her. However, by that time she seems to have passed on some important role of hers to Liz.
That's why I thought there was something sobering as well as humorous about that well-known exchange:
Max: "I'll just have an alien blast."
Liz (pensively?): "Yeah, me too."
I think Nasedo hates Liz particularly. In Destiny, when he said "She doesn't belong here," I thought he just meant her as any human. Now I think his antipathy is more specific than that.
[Edited by Nemo on 07-04-2000 at 04:20 PM]
07-04-2000 04:37 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
I would also like to add that I am not imputing anything
sinister to kindly Dr. Sanchez. He seems to have been well known to
the family, and I take him at face value. The likely suspect, I
think, is that person (dressed as a technician of some sort?) who
was hastily leaving as our friends were approaching Grandma's room.
07-04-2000 04:38 PM
Eowyn
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
LSS If Max and Liz were intimate (and I assume that the show will
deal with that. Hopefully they will be eachother's first) I think
Liz will have a reaction. She has visions when they kiss and correct
me if I am wrong on this next one I only read (it was before I
watched the show) that the hickies max give her glow. So if the
couple were ever intimate I assume that something big will happen
(can't wait to find out what the writers can cook up for that)
As for the alien essence, I just think that the Podsters are clones
of aliens but instead of being in alien form they are in human form.
Also though their powers are human they are very advanced and no
human has them yet, so in a sense they are still "alien" powers.
Perhaps a mixture of the alien essence in a human body creates a
human (like Max, Is, and Michael) with those special advanced
powers. Now this is just a theory but what if the start of the
advanced human race stems from the mixing of human DNA, with alien
DNA (Human Mom, Alien Dad as an ex) Now that doesn't mean that lets
say if Max and Liz happened to have a child their child would be
like Max, I think their child would be more human because Liz is all
human and Max also has human in him. So inorder to create a new race
of humans I think a alien and human would have to mate. Am I making
any sense here. This is just a theory afterall.
Also Nemo Why do you think Nacedo is against Liz and not just humans
in general?We know Nacedo always mistrusted humans. Also I became a
fan of Roswell during the White Room ep and I know Nacedo
shapeshifted into Max, FBI agents, Agent Pierce, etc, can someone
fill me in if Nacedo shape shifted into another familiar form or are
all of these guesses on who Nacedo also could have been?
Luv Always,
Eowyn
07-04-2000 04:45 PM
Miss Roswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Ok,I do and don't believe in this genetics thing. We were
always taught in school brown dominates.
Well let me tell you. I have dark blonde hair and green eyes, my
husband (looks like Jason) has brown eyes, black hair, real tan. Our
daughter has blues eyes and auburn hair, and our son has real light
blonde hair and blues eyes too.
So explain that one, LOL.
Seriously, I am hoping that Liz is somehow connected to Max......
07-04-2000 05:13 PM
Eowyn
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Miss Roswell,
The reason why both your children have light eyes is because your
husband even though he has brown eyes must have a heterozygous gene
blue/brown, you have a homozygous gene blue/blue (green is a
coloration of blue) So when you had children you gave off a blue
allele and so did your husband that is why bluye eyes were possible.
I knew my p bio course would come in handy eventually.
Brown is dominate the only way a child will have blue eyes if
his/her traits are homozygous recessive for blue.
As for Liz and her parents I am sure it was a casting mistake, but
it would be intersting if she had native american roots.
Luv Always,
Eowyn
[Edited by Eowyn on 07-04-2000 at 05:22 PM]
07-04-2000 05:34 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Eowyn (love your name -- is it from Lord of the Rings?),
About the shapeshifter: others we have seem impersonated were Hank,
Michaels late foster father, and Dr. Margolin, from a clinic in
Maryland, though we don't know whether these and the others you
mentioned are the work of just one shapeshifter or more than one.
But my suspicion that Grandma was murdered is not based on
recognizing these shapes, if that's what you were getting at.
Instead there are other hints. Lots of them have been listed, and I
could try to pull them together here, but for that you must give me
time to prepare another post.
Best regards,
Nemo
07-04-2000 05:42 PM
Eowyn
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Hi Nemo,
Thanks yep my handle comes from LOTR.
also thanks for the info on Nacedo shifting into other personalities
besides the ones I listed. So you think Nacedo killed Claudia
because she knew something about Liz's connection to Max that could
ruin what Nacedo has planned. I am guessing you think Nacedo is
evil, I guess next season we will find out its real motives (can we
even really call Nacedo a he or a she?)
Luv Always,
Eowyn
07-04-2000 05:44 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Happy 4th to those who celebrate.
There are so may good thoughts on this thread. I have so much
catching up to do. I first want to say how much I loved this ep and
that it represents a lot of what I do not want to see lost from
Roswell.
Throswell, I felt a chill at Liz' statement, taken from GC, of the
concept that the heart may lead one to a place that may not have a
happy ending. Perhaps not unhappy as bittersweet.
I loathed the STP-mandate of Destiny and the dreaded momma-gram, but
if there is any validity to it, then the possibility may arise that
Max (and others), if he is to be the one (because of who/what he is,
what we love about him, HIS essence), then he may exercise his FREE
WILL to accept his destiny to accomplish/fulfill/complete some act
(note bene: this does NOT include having relations with/marrying
trickster rodents). He may sacrifice his corporeal existence.
Max may find himself in the position of having to ask the right
question at the right time and for the right- ie, unselfish-
reasons(the key to restoration in all the grail tales) to restore
the Balance that saves his loved ones (family, friends, beloved Liz)
and whatever planet ("the land") he has to save. Messianic figures
have very hard choices to make and they are ususally not for selfish
(ie, personal survival) reasons.
That does not mean that they can't leave behind some of their
essence (read: child). Happy ending? Mayhaps yes, mayhaps no.
Bittersweet? Perhaps. Another option..I felt this re-watching The
Balance..he steps down and defers to Michael. I have reason to sense
this. I'll post it later.
I think that Max using his "powers" seems to take a lot from him. I
have the feeling that he loses something and that there is some fear
involved. There is more here than just the fear of revealing
him/them.
SF (good to see you) I agree with your "reading" of Liz and Liz' mom
relationship, particularly with the ease between Liz and GC.
I assume that by essence they are sloppily referring to that which
is known as the soul.
The writers/producers can approach this froma spiritual aspect
without going into religion. In other words, the viewer can take
away what they want on many leverls; spiritual, allegorical,
philosophical, etc. The X-Files does this often (ie, BIOGENESIS
triology,Sein und Zeit/Closure).One important concept from TXF is
the Limbic system and the soul.
Is the soul a creation of the limbic system? Is the limbic system
our receptor to the divine? Is it a development "boosted" by
advanced beings (a boost in the development of the limbic and in the
neocortex occured and - putting this simplistically- may have been
the reason for the "disappearance" of the neanderthal who could not
compete with these advanced humans). We'd have to talk about the
limbic system in the near future if there is to be some
understandingn of the potential for soul, spirit, and
not-necessarily-so-mysterious powers.
Returning to the mysteries of the grail, the tales are about the
reconciliation of the inner "cosmos" with the external; the inner
spirit with the the truth of the universe. The attainment of the
grail is free from external dogma/doctrine (ie, religion is NOT what
it is about..it is the spiritual). The attainment of the
grail..symbolized by a cup or cauldron or egg or other concave
shaped object, depending on the tale/myth origin, is available to
anyone who is ready to go on the quest. It is a symbol of the
reconstitution of the individual soul and the people with the
spiritual..unity with nature and the cosmos
The quests are about attaining the spiritual, compassion, and
love..unselfish, from the heart love. That will be the beauty of the
M/L love relationship. This love of the heart is the most powerful
achievement in the tales..even after the restoration of the land (=
fertility, balance, reconciliaiton of the people with the cosmos,
etc).
Something is vewy, vewy scwewy here.
I had noted Liz's phenotype differences seeing early eps for the
first time. I also made note seeing BB again recently how much mom
(?Diane) DOES look like Max and Iz and vaguely somewhat similar to
momma-holo. Mrs Evans was cast, it appears, to deliberately look
like Max and Iz (note the mouth). Note holo-mom's hairdo in Destiny
and Mrs. Evans' at the bedside in BB. That may be pure coincidence
(ie, they saw Holo-mom as they wanted to see her) but there is some
lineage shell-game going on here. Bloodlines are everything..more on
that later.
ROSta
(back later...off to the fireworks..from the roof of my
building..how lucky)
[Edited by ROStaFEHRian on 07-04-2000 at 06:00 PM]
07-04-2000 06:36 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
rostafehrian: thank you for your post! i was especially struck by
what you said regarding max's fear of using his powers. as his
character is portrayed, it is possible that he is clear that
'nothing comes for free'.
so if he (or others) gain something from the use of his powers, is
there an expectation that something will be lost... or taken away?
given the pattern of emotional isolation max experiences, perhaps
there is also the fear that if he uses his powers, then he will be
even more different and therefor more isolated (ie. lose the
relationships he has?)
i'm no fan of the 'destiny' plot (no pun intended ). so i'm not
going to pursue the idea of whether or not he is aware on an
unconscious level of what the powers may have cost him in the past.
regardless, i imagine that max, perhaps more so then the other
podsters is ambivalent about the existance of the powers to begin
with?
jenlev
07-04-2000 06:45 PM
bluecornmoon
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
A couple of points to add to this very interesting
thread:
Why do I think that this episode, besides The Pilot, is probably the
most important in explaining Liz' importance to the pod squad? And
that we'll come back to it time and again in the future in order to
decipher Liz' role in the descovering and neutralization of the evil
aliens? Varios points, most of them centered around Grandma Claudia:
1. We know GC is special, not only in the human aspect because she's
always made Liz feel special, but because she has led an
extraodinary life.
2. We know she was at the crash site before the government came and
cleaned it up. The picture Liz carried around in the Pilot may have
been bogus but her presence there certainly wasn't. Could she have,
by the mere fact of being there, inherited something from one of the
dying aliens? i.e. if not his essence, at least his power(s), which
she could and should give to her first female descendent, programmed
to be her grand-daughter (manipulated to have only male children),
who would grow up at just about the same time as their leader would
come into sexual maturity?
3. She spent many years among Native Americans. Through studies of
their legends, hieroglyphics, theories on the Anasasi's
dissapearance, etc., we know that they are full of accounts of
"visitors" who have walked among them for hundreds of years.
Also, we know that far away from Occidental taboos, it was always a
Native American custom (practiced even now), to offer your wife,
your daughter or your sister to a guest, as a peace offering or
token of friendship. Could she have been such offering at one point
or another?
4. Sometime in the past, Claudia "arrested" three drunk, rifle
carrying, testosterone-filled males, fresh from killing a stag. In
other circumstances, I would call such an action a dangerous
stupidity. In her, it may have been normal because she knew how to
overpower them. She had the one way a "weak" female would dominate 3
males: by using her brain power, enhanced already by what she had or
knew!
4. At first greeting, Nancy Parker was eager to visit with Grandma
and Liz, but quickly changed her mind. Could it be only because she
knew of her daughter's retiscense in discussing affairs of the heart
infront of her (something normal with teenage girls), or could it
have been that Claudia "helped" her change her mind by again using
her brain power?
5. Her appearance before its time. I don't believe for a second she
came early because she knew it was her time to die. On the contrary,
she came because she knew something pivotal had happened to her baby
- the shooting. And knew it was time for the "talk". It would have
been interesting to listen to the conversation upstairs had Maria
not interrupted. We would have been spared the aggravation of all
these months and all that "it was meant to be" garbage by T***.
6. Grandma Claudia had a pendant, with a shape similar to that of
the orb (to this day, I believe the orb was sending the messages to
Liz - note the vision of being buried). There were a couple of
scenes where you could see the light, which shouldn't have been
there, shining on it as if to bring our attention to it. I don't
find it difficult to imagine Max and Liz, at some point in the
future, going through her book and her jewelry, looking for the
clues we know they'll find there, as to why she can uncover the
"evil within" the bad aliens.
7. I was going to say here "even paranoics have real enemies" but
... when Liz mentioned her Grandma coming to visit, she did it where
Jose or other employees could hear. Since we already know that
somebody (Nacedo or evil aliens) is onto her specialness, it is easy
to assume that they have posted a spy at the diner (Pilot: we have
to get rid of her... I want to kill her in the worst way but I want
to see the money on the table first!). Once there, it would be easy
to start the killing and have Dr. Sanchez or whomever else finish
the job at the hospital (noticed Radiology vs Neurology - brain!).
Also, a coyote is the trickster in Native American folklore but
sometimes, the devil (or Evil Spirit) camouflages as one!
8. When her soul appeared (and yes, they can at certain times have
corporal manifestations and touch or be touched), it could be
because Max helped her or because she did it using Max as a conduit.
Too bad their conversation couldn't have been any lengthier.
9. There is no opportunity lost throughout the episodes to tell us
that Liz is perfect: perfect student, perfect waitress, perfect
daughter (I know, SH was an anomaly!), perfect friend (Alex: anybody
I could trust would be my parents or you Liz!), even perfect teeth.
The message is that she is perfect for Max. And that she is Venus:
the 5th star that forms the V shape, which appeared when things
started to heat up between Max and Liz, not when T*** appeared in
the scene! Many references to this: (yes, even Venus meatloaf
special for you!) but most specially: Crazy: Liz: My
parents..away..Venus..morning sky! Max: I thought she was infront of
me!
Conclusion: Liz is human but made to help the pod squad because of
her Grandma (she is the basis of my existence!) and essential to
their cause. Max had his love for her "built-in" in him as a sort of
safeguard/insurance that would enable him to identify her when the
time came! They may have to fight big obstacles but their true
destiny will emerge victorious at the end!
On another topic, Michael's powers emerge when he has to defend his
leader: cellular/essense memory?
Yes, two people with blue eyes can have a brown eye child as long as
one of their ancestors had brown eyes (we all are the drivers of a
bus where we carry all our ancestors DNA!).
07-04-2000 07:02 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Nemo
Pixiedude, I liked your list of "odd things...Thank you for the
details about the coyote and the rabbit on the Radiology vs.
Neurology sign...
Has anyone out there who spends time in hospitals ever seen such a
sign? I thought it was odd. Are Radiology and Neurology opposed to
each other in the medical world? And how would a rabbit be linked to
radiology? Or a coyote to neurology?
and:
ibidquote:
...I think Nasedo hates Liz particularly. In Destiny, when he said
"She doesn't belong here," I thought he just meant her as any
human. Now I think his antipathy is more specific than that.
I think he does detest her, but also maybe Nasedo was present at the
Michael healing in some capacity when Liz's fear was an indication
of her inability to participate. Or maybe it was just the fear thing
again that he sensed. Regardless, he sure is a petulant dude; I
mean, he just got resurected and he's quacking.
Oh, and about the alien blast, naah, they were just sharing a
romantic pun.
07-04-2000 07:14 PM
bluecornmoon
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
Rostafehrian: Read your post after I posted mine. Please
clarify for me the following points I think you made:
You say Max will sacrifice himself (die or give up Liz) for the good
of the whole, or he'll give up his leadership rights to Michael.
Because only "superior" beings have a limbic system, home of the
soul, having a limbic system makes us superior (?) and....
If you are to achieve your goal, love, it must be done unselfishly.
True, but ....
Earth mother looks like Alien mother. I agree, so therefore Liz....
Appreciate your answers!
07-04-2000 07:28 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
As usual, some very interesting things to think about.
I'm wondering why GC didn't warn Liz about what was going on? She
was given the opportunity to talk to Liz while she was in a coma, in
the process of dying, and she kept it very light and sweet. Yeah, I
know her advice to "follow your heart" may lead Liz in the right
direction, but given the possiblity that she was being murdered (and
she probably suspected it, being the intellegent woman she was), why
not give Liz more direct information?
My only reason for thinking she didn't or wouldn't is because it
might be information overload? Or she didn't want to color or
interfere with Liz's choices? Or...did she even know that Liz was
aware of the alien presence?
Happy Independence Day!
07-04-2000 07:38 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Rosta!!!
You know, don't you, that you are one of my favorite posters on
these threads!!! Such insight...I always feel a rush of expectation
when I see your user name!!! BTW are congrats (for your graduation)
in order yet?
Some comments/questions on your post--
You said: "the concept that the heart may lead one to a place that
may not have a happy ending. Perhaps not unhappy as
bittersweet....to accomplish/fulfill/complete some act (note bene:
this does NOT include having relations with/marrying trickster
rodents). He may sacrifice his corporeal existence."
You've got my heart thumping here Rosta...on the one hand I'm glad
about the reprieve from trickster rodents. On the other hand, I do
not want a martyred messiah--but must admit that history is riddled
with them.
You said: "Messianic figures have very hard choices to make and they
are ususally not for selfish (ie, personal survival) reasons. That
does not mean that they can't leave behind some of their essence
(read: child). Happy ending? Mayhaps yes, mayhaps no. Bittersweet?
Perhaps."
Be still my breaking heart! Do you really envision Max going off
planet to the tune of Save the home world while leaving either a
pregnant Liz or worse yet a single mom Liz? Of course fan fiction
writers have made this theme a major one in a number of different
stories. Usually Max comes back. In one ("Little Prince") however,
he only gets to visit Liz and his son in their dreams. In all of the
projected story arcs there is a note of sadness and pathos.
Bittersweet indeed!
You said: "Another option..I felt this re-watching The Balance..he
steps down and defers to Michael. I have reason to sense this."
You know I've said several times that I could see Michael stepping
up into the leader position. But when I said it I was refering to a
Michael/coup not Max voluntarily stepping down. But you are
suggesting a sort of a King Edward/Mrs Wallace scenario. But how
does this affect his heroic quest status? What happens when the hero
decides the quest is not worth leaving home--that the grail in the
hand (Liz) is worth more than the one at the end of the journey?
YOU SAID: "I think that Max using his "powers" seems to take a lot
from him. I have the feeling that he loses something and that there
is some fear involved."
Good observations. I've always thought that Max shares some of his
essence/life force with those he heals, thus putting himself at risk
to some degree. Though remember when Michael healed River Dog we
didn't get that reaction. Perhaps because it was not a life/death
situation?
BTW Rosta...you have a very nice mythic analogue here...of a
messianic figure who gives his life's essence to save those he
heals...and yes, I can see where ultimately this task may require
his very life. I can see it. But I don't have to like it!
Happy 4th!
LSS
07-04-2000 07:46 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Here's a collection of hints, suggesting that Nasedo or
someone of similar powers murdered Grandma by using radiant energy
to aggravate the injury to her brain, which was otherwise responding
well to treatment by Dr. Sanchez. Included are items from the next
episode, Missing, which now looks like Leaving Normal, part 2.
General atmosphere: Mention of hunters and a serial killer in
connection with her.
Suggested means: [Radiology vs. Neurology sign already mentioned]
Isabel and Michael are seen heating things (food, coffee, Kyle's
lock); Michael and Max melting or shaking things inside containers
(locker, vending machine) without leaving a mark. Analogy to the
skull? In the hospital: orange glowing object (defocused ceiling
sign) next to Max's head for a long time. His head is injured but
healing -- like Grandma's. Upraised-hand gesture (in Nancy Parker's
storytelling) just before the code-blue. Then, as everyone rushes to
GC's room, someone is just leaving.
In Missing, as Liz walks home through the darkened streets feeling
hunted, she seems almost surrounded by those upraised-hand
pedestrian signs glowing fiery orange. While Liz talks to Max at the
museum, he puts away a grotesquely large hand.
A sign on Michael's wall in the beginning shows something like a
lightning bolt zapping from one person to another. In Kyle's house
is a banner for "Power Sports Network." In Liz's house is a picture
with wavy lines suggestive of a radiation pattern. In the art
classroom, we see a figure of a lone assault trooper and hear
"X-ray, search and destroy." In the cafe, Max (quoting from
Atherton's book) mentions the brain.
Maria urges Liz to reconstruct a crime. Michael, at the end,
suggests window locks "for when your criminals happen to be human."
Doesn't it seem as if "Inspector DeLuca" is talking to us as much as
to Liz:
quote:
I mean, this is Roswell. You can't just ignore things like this.
[consumer notice: this post contains over 50% recycled material]
07-04-2000 07:52 PM
Kim648
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
This is all very interesting!! Lots of things I never
noticed!!
Okay, I'll start off with the GC spirit goodbye, or whatever it was.
I think Max ment to wake GC up for the goodbye but it didn't work.
Maybe GC saw this, somehow; like someone said, people in a coma can
still hear; and saw how important it was for Liz to say goodbye, or
something like that.
About the monogram. Remeber that isn't their mother's real form,
it's just suppose to make them feel more comfortable. Also, you
never know what they looked like in their past life. Do you think it
was just a coincidence that they got with a mother that looked a lot
like them, or maybe their growing up with this family was planned
before?
And about the genetic thing. Sorry for bringing this up again. But
it's impossible for two blue eyed parents to have a brown eyed
child. To have blue eyes you must have two blue eye allels, to have
brown eyes you just need one brown eye allel(sorry if I'm using that
word wrong, science 10 was a while ago!! ). Therefore, if the
parents both are blue eyed, there's four blue allels and zero brown
eye allels. I'm not sure what colour her father's eyes are, I didn't
notice, they may not pay much attention to that part in casting!!
Kim
07-04-2000 08:13 PM
Reggie
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Posted by Palomino's brother Reggie
(under his owm login)
Lorrilei said: "Max says "I'm not God." Interesting statement. Do
you think he was just throwing out a comment, or do you think that
he truly meant it? In other words, do our aliens have a spiritual
side? Do they believe in God? It is a theme that crops up in
sci-fi... the existence of God and what it means to man, and the
idea of other life forms."
I suspect you're reading way too much into this. OF COURSE he truly
ment, he's not God! He will not be un-killing everyone who gets
killed on the show, or dies of natural causes, or whatever. He may,
if it's safe, heal someone; but not if they are going to pose a
danger to Max or the others in the group. Remember, he paused before
healing Kyle. Let's hope that doesn't make Kyle a danger (although
of course now the Sherrif owes Max a favor). We'll see.
Liz's grandma? No, too many witnesses, and besides, it's Her Time.
He did try to rouse her for one last goodbye. Sometimes, dying
people "come to" briefly just before the End. I think Max was trying
to waken her; but what he got was her spirit / essence / etc. The
Podsters seem to be able to work with these things directly, but I
think Max was as surprised as anyone!
07-04-2000 08:21 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Hi bluecornmoon!
YOU SAID: "We know she [GC]was at the crash site before the
government came and cleaned it up. The picture Liz carried around in
the Pilot may have been bogus but her presence there certainly
wasn't."
How do we know this? If the picture was bogus why couldn't the story
have been? I'm not challenging you to be mean, just asking for
clarification.
YOU SAID: "She spent many years among Native Americans...we know
that far away from Occidental taboos, it was always a Native
American custom (practiced even now), to offer your wife, your
daughter or your sister to a guest, as a peace offering or token of
friendship. Could she have been such offering at one point or
another?"
Why would she be given? Who would give her? I think I've missed
something...who are you saying she is the wife/daughter/sister of?
YOU SAID: "to this day, I believe the orb was sending the messages
to Liz"
I agree. I think there is a lot to learn yet about those orbs.
YOU SAID: "Also, a coyote is the trickster in Native American
folklore but sometimes, the devil (or Evil Spirit) camouflages as
one!"
Interesting. I didn't know that about the evil spirit (of course
trickster can be evil too). You know I've always thought that
howling in SH was really odd. Max seems annoyed that Liz is being
distracted from what is primary in HIS mind. Any idea bluecornmoon
as to what that howling signifies? I'm curious as to your "read" of
that element!
YOU SAID: "There is no opportunity lost throughout the episodes to
tell us that Liz is perfect"
Another to add to your list--the song played when she and Max leave
the cafe for the movies in "Crazy" speaks of them as the perfect
couple.
YOU SAID: "Max had his love for her "built-in" in him as a sort of
safeguard/insurance that would enable him to identify her when the
time came!"
It is odd that he would fixate on her and then maintain that
obsession throughout his schooling. So I take it that you are not a
follower of the eternal "soulmate" school that would argue that soul
cries to soul in recognition here?
YOU SAID: "On another topic, Michael's powers emerge when he has to
defend his leader: cellular/essense memory?"
Good point. If essence then we have a funtional indicator here.
***********************************
Just a comment about all the discussion of genes and eye colors. I
think we have to make a distinction here between the story Roswell
and the TV series. On the one hand, in the story universe these
questions are legitimately raised and offer insight into possible
storylines. On the other hand, if you are talking the TV series,
then I think that I have to raise a word of caution. You all (and I
mean all of the posters who are arguing about this) you may be
giving far too much credit to the writers in terms of genetic
knowledge!!! I do not think that you can read into the casting the
type of import that you are giving. Into the storyworld, yes (the
storyworld has a life/existence of its own apart from the TV writers
intent).
LSS
07-04-2000 08:31 PM
acourtesan
Level 2
Registered: Apr 2000
it seems that michael only uses his power when it is
extremely necessary or in times of crisis. maybe that is why he
cannot control it like hormones. he appears to be maturing as a
young adult so maybe his powers are maturing also. michael was not
nutured from his parent like max and his sister were from their
parents, maybe that has something to do with it. i think if he was
encouraged and had a good self image developed as a child, he would
be able to accept and manage his powers with some confidence. well
it is just a thought...
07-04-2000 08:31 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Reggie
Posted by Palomino's brother Reggie
(under his owm login)
Remember, he paused before healing Kyle.
You got a user name! Reggie, I hope you know what this means--you
are officially hooked!
I wondered about that pause too. I mean, there is not a dry eye in
the place (even Tess looked upset if not actually shedding a tear)
and yet Max just stood there and tilted his head (actually he
swallowed too--God, I never notice these things in other TV
shows--is this obsessed or what?).
So your "take" on that scene is that he was thinking about the pros
and cons of saving Kyle in terms of Kyle's future interaction with
the pod squad? You may be right. He didn't exactly look like he was
brimming with gratitude. His dad was, but not him. Of course he
could be in shock...almost dying might do that to you!
LSS
07-04-2000 08:39 PM
Reggie
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
BTW--one nice thing that might happen is if they put more
focus on the SF and away from the relationships we may get to have
them be happier for longer periods of time. I know, I know, NO ONE
likes that idea...not even me. LSS
Whoa, there!
I LIKE Sci-Fi; the more Sci (and less Psi) the better. And if you
actually like these characters, would you rather they be happy
occasionally, or be stuck in a depressing morass of "mushy stuff"?
Let Max enjoy whats'er name's cute overbite in peace!
07-04-2000 08:51 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Reggie:
Actually that was said tongue in cheek. I love SF and am not at all
interested in minimalizing it. Someone a while back noted that if
our couples were "in place" we could focus more on interesting SF
plots instead of angsty teen romance. Actually, I'm on record as
advocating a balance between romance and SF. But I want both of them
to be class acts (which I think the show's SF has yet to achieve.)
Maybe I ought to use those smilies to indicate moods/nuance. Sorry!
Anyway, welcome again under your own name!
LSS
07-04-2000 08:58 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
The whole conversation betw Kyle and Liz about the videos seems
pointless except it mentions about a serial killer homing in on a
retirement community and the next scene is Grandma being taken to
the hospital....
Besides the video title (Massacre at Sunset Village), the writers
worked in the words history and classic. This added to what was
already a lot of references to time and history. If this turns out
to be a time-travel story, I am guessing that Grandma's arrival at
an unexpected time is analogous to AlienMom's sending her kids to
some other time for their safety (probably earlier -- Nasedo talks
as if he knows what human developments the next few thousand years
will bring, unless he's just extrapolating).
07-04-2000 09:08 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Nemo:
Do you really think we have a time travel story here? Apart from
that statement from Nesedo about what humankind will be able to do
in the future, have we had any other temporal references of
significance (and I don't mean the significance of clocks here)?
LSS
07-04-2000 09:16 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Hello LSS,
Thank you for such kind words. They REALLY mean a lot to me. May I
say I also feel the same about reading your posts?
YES!!! Glory, amen!! I graduated on the 29th. I'm STILL recovering.
I presented my research paper to the department and invited guests
and now I just have to tidy up the paper itself, it put in the
superscripts. The hard part (making all the tables and graphs) is
done. Now I have to get a REAL job.
Wow. Your questions are going to send me off-line for awhile to
think and put it together (I have to pay for my phone line by the
minute so I can't think while on-line). My brain is so fried I think
I might have to get back to you tomorrow.
BLUECORNMOON- I'll get back to you in another post soon to follow.
LSS, I recall you mentioning computer problems a while back so I
don't know if you received the email I sent ~3-4wk ago. If not, I'll
resend, but if you did I think you have an idea about the
significance I attach to the M/L relationship..the true specialness
of Liz (Venus). This would be a subtext to the grail mysteries that
I haven't discussed at the Crashdown. Hopefully I can post on it in
a couple of days.
In the same vein, you know I don't believe in the "save that other
world" mandate/ mommagram. My hunch is that M/M/I and their
people(s) (don't know about that other creature) are very much of
this planet. The true aliens (if there are any) may be these beeper
creepers (note: holo-mom said "our enemies have come to the
earth..".. )
The importance of the focus on the concept of "evil" is very
significant. IN the grail myths the point is not that the questing
hero/heroine be pure, attain purity, not make mistakes, etc. By
seeking/following the spiritual path on earth (ie, the initiation
symbolized by the entry of the various knights into the forest), one
of the main goals is to reconcile with evil. Not overcome it, not
conquer it..reconcile with it's existence as a force in the
universe.
Another theme in the gail mytholgy is that the various knights and
the female characters in the grail represent ASPECTS of the whole
(ie, aspects of the hero on the quest). The female characters in
particular represent the path to spiritual wholeness.
This is more complex than I can expand on here. The tales are about
the evolution of consciouness..making conscious that which has been
hidden/unconscious. Initiation to the path of spiritual and soul
development.
Anyway, I mentioned in one of my earliest posts that I was not sure
who the final/true knight actually will be. In a sense it is the
"wholeness" of all of them. For the sake of storytelling I think it
will be Michael.
For clarification, in the tales there is the quest of the grail when
Parzival asks the right questions in the right way...but AFTER that
there is another - and THE MOST IMPORTANT quest: LOVE..attemtion to
matters of the heart. Or, as L. Sussman says: "the realm of the
heart. In one version there is Parzival's spiritual attainment,
marriage (in one version) and then shortly after spiritual
ascendance (=corporeal death). Before he dies confers his rule to
Gawain (who also marries at the same time..the Quarternio ) and
completes the original quest which Parzival did not really complete.
Gawain is the "true knight".
This should make you shiver: "...rulership of the grail castle
passes to the person who, after much searching and many trials, has
so matured in self-knowledge, spiritual understanding, AND
compassionate perception of others that he/she can speak just what
the moment calls for..) "Speech of the Grail" by L. Sussman.
The tales don't fortell the future or set a destiny in stone. Just
the opposite. They just suggest the transformations (represented by
different players) along the spiritual path. Therefore NO I don't
think that Max HAS to die. The death/rebirth/ascension may be purely
symbolic. He has already died and ascended once.
He may accomplish his mission but his CHOICE to live a simple life
with Liz (?and child!!) in the realm of his world(s) whatever
world(s) that may be/are, may mean he has to turn leadershihp over
to Michael..or Iz.. or Michael and his "bride" Maria (who is also
changing) so he can be with Liz.
On the other hand, the one who can ask the right questions at the
right time may be the goddess (Liz).
Rosta
07-04-2000 09:37 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
quote:
Originally posted by LSS
BTW--did we ever discuss the exact function of the "alien essence"
referred to in "Destiny"? Since we've been talking above about
aliens & ancestry, and since Nesedo/Harding in The White Room told
Michael that his powers were simply those of advanced
humanity...then what precisely does "alien essence" do? ...
Well, I would give up the terms exact and precisely; I think the
concept is vague at best. But my impression is it's alien essence,
not alien essence. It's their original personalities, (whose
alien-ness is only incidental) individually, as well as those can be
preserved (by whatever means) and reconstituted in some new body
even of a somewhat different species. It has more to do with mind
and character than biochemistry. ("It's the thought that counts"?)
AlienMom just wants her kids alive again, or the next nearest thing
possible. Since her place isn't safe for them, she arranges to send
them elsewhere (and "elsewhen"?) in a form resembling the natives.
In Blood Brothers, didn't it feel creepy to see all those blood
vials ["essence"?] with names and birthdates on them? And the idea
of switching one of them....
07-04-2000 10:13 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
LSS,
Do I think we have a time-travel story here? At first I was strongly
inclined to doubt it. [I think those things are easy to do badly,
but can be especially dramatic when done well. The Terminator
stories (no comment on the acting, just the story) are the best
recent examples I can recall.] Now I would say my disbelief is
slowly diminishing; it's getting closer to a toss-up. Offhand I
can't remember which clues made me wonder about this. They are all
small, but their number has been growing. If I can collect them into
a list I will let you know.
07-04-2000 10:13 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian
...He may accomplish his mission but his CHOICE to live a simple
life with Liz (?and child!!) in the realm of his world(s) whatever
world(s) that may be/are, may mean he has to turn leadershihp over
to Michael..or Iz.. or Michael and his "bride" Maria (who is also
changing) so he can be with Liz...
Your words give me an image of Michael & Maria traveling off to
another galaxy as foreshadowed by the 285 South sharing of their
mutual dream to find some other place besides Roswell.
On a more Pleblian note: I finally got a clear video recording and
managed to see that the Radiology vs. Neurology poster has a Donkey,
not a rabbit or coyote. Anyway, I think it's a poster advertising an
amateur sporting event (e.g. softball) between the two hospital
department staff members. My daughter suggests that it's probably
just a fun poster that someone thought would make the phone look
like it was in a hospital.
07-04-2000 10:20 PM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
So much to say, consequently, this post comes with my
customary length warning!
Anger and Michael's powers - I have to agree, on it clouding his
judgment/ability - the saying, that revenge is a dish best savored
cold is very true and it is in this frame of mind that Michael is
able to work very subtle mischief with his powers. He is also in a
calmer frame of mind when he heals River Dog. However, when things
get 'heightened' chaos is the result. It has been brought up a
number of times that Michael is one of the more ambivalent
characters, walking a constant line between self-actualization and
self-destruction, which is I think reflected in his lack of control.
Only when he is experiencing minimal inner conflict do things go
right.
Grandma Claudia - I have always thought that the fact that the Pod
Squad can't yet 'read' the symbols leaves open the possibility of
someone providing a 'key'. What better way than a scholar who has
made a life-study of Native American culture. The key may be wrapped
in the shroud of GC's work and thereby be safe from unintended
users.
Rosta - hey long time since we last 'spoke', love your posts as
always.
I have a little trouble with the whole Destiny/fate concept - not
least the way it is being employed in Roswell. In the Greek version
of Fate everything is fixed, preordained. 'Destiny' - the Roman
formulation of the same mythic force, is in its essentials
identical. For all people the three sisters of Fate spin a strand
that is our individual life, weave the cloth of the world's life and
then, without remorse, tie it off when we come to our end. The
fabric is held together by loose cross-connections of chance, rather
than stronger bonds. In all this chance seems to play almost no
active part and we are afforded no choices at all.
There are two standard responses: to try to fight the Fates; or to
just accept the way things are.
Yet these two approaches also don't really work, because the basic
model they're working to simply doesn't match the complexities of
reality as we experience it. Why should we be totally submissive
when, as I believe, we do have some choices. This is despite the
fact that reality seems to dictate that we have only limited control
over most things. We do have enough choice to direct what, in subtly
different circumstances, is done to and with our lives. To be able
to direct our own lives, we also need to take heed of what reality
is trying to tell us.
This is where the concept of wyrd is more attractive to me. Rather
than a weave of lives, each like a ribbon - entirely separate, wyrd
represents a fabric that embodies life itself. Unlike the
mono-dimensional fabric of 'fate' wyrd is more like a Celtic
knotwork, or embroidery with no perceptible beginning or ending.
Another way of visualising it is to think of it as an immensely
complex mental conundrum - an Escher drawing, without any clear
transition, the inside becomes the outside, and the outside inside -
there is of course a division of sorts between 'self' and
'non-self', between us and them. Similar to the concept of fractals,
every point within the fabric seems to contain, or at least interact
with, every other point: every moment also includes everything,
everyone, everywhere, all-time. Therefore, contrary to appearances,
we always have choice; the catch is that wherever there's a choice,
there's also the inevitable cost.
In this approach to reality, we have far more choice, but to do so
we have to be able to work with the twisted nature of the wyrd,
rather than trying to establish any control over its flow. We also
have to cope with the fact that the wyrd comprises everything,
everyone, everywhere, everywhen all of which merge into an
inconceivable present.
Yet in the original Greek formulation of the 'Fate' concept, the
logical/obvious, most attractive response is to succumb. Serious
consequences flow if we fail to hold our courage when we meet up
with Pan - literally 'all'. Within the wyrd, we always have choice
itself and in how we use it. Yet we do need to exercise great care
as any/every choice within the wyrd can lead us to a point we don't
expect - which recalls Liz's words almost exactly!
The concept of wyrd does also contain something akin to fatalism:
there's always some kind of sting in the tail that may embody a
completion. Perhaps not so dramatic as death itself, more like a
closing of some life-stage, the achievment of a dream or overcoming
of a fear (which I think sits well with your analysis, Rosta).
Gaelic mythology places within the wyrd a more personal
action-strand, known as a 'geas'. This is an indivdual burden, no
matter how they wish it were not so. Yet the convolution of wyrd are
such that we may have some hints, pre-warnings, of what our geas may
be. The ending which forms part of a geas is, however, something
over which we have no control- yet occasionally we may have choice
about what form, or intensity, this may have. If we want that
choice, it's up to us to recognise it and act on it as we choose.
Unlike the Greek/Roman version of Fate, though, wyrd always allows
us a degree of choice: although we have to accept that in every
choice there's always that 'sting-in-the-tail. We have three basic
response options - rail against our fate but accept its
inevitability; throw ourselves uselessly against it or accept that
reality is strange- and in doing so, establish our own relationship
with 'fate'.
The Norse sagas are replete with examples of success and tragic
failure in exercising choice in wyrd - the success stories are those
who have an ability to sense the flow and move with it, but
according to their own course. They don't place themselves under
oath or allegiance that contradicts or cross-cuts the wyrd's flow,
no matter the provocation/temptation. This, I see, is evidenced in
and in turn dictates Max's caution in using his powers. I believe
(perhaps coloured by hope) that Max senses the wyrd's currents and,
script-writers willing, will be able to take the opportunities for
self-direction the maelstrom of "Destiny" may allow.
I have more - but I think I'll stop there for now.
amx
Post script - in editing once for typos I lost some of my original
and only made it worse by going back!
[Edited by amx on 07-06-2000 at 12:07 AM]
07-04-2000 10:23 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Nemo I posted that awhile back about the person leaving
the hosp intensive care room right as Liz and her dad come down the
hall. This very suspicious person takes a long look at Jeff Parker.
I thought there is the culprit!
I know I will not do this justice because this was posted by EVID
but it is an explanation of LIZ's Specialness(maybe) so it could be
relevant-(for a good view you must go to the old Liz Import to Alien
Myth thread)
Evid posted that in the Morning After Ep at the beginning when Liz
is star gazing at the beginning-on her pajama pants are these
symbols---the symbol represents "THE IMMACULATE HEART" and Evid
further said the symbol represents an individual who is a SAVIOR OF
MANY-SOMEONE WHO BRINGS PEACE. Considering an upcoming WAR-this
could be the significance.
I did notice when Max and Michael are arguing about "you're putting
us in danger"....there are pics of hearts all around that
room-important-maybe also in Grandma Claudia hosp room when they are
working to save her the nurse over her has on a NURSES COAT that has
HEARTS on it.
Also Grandma Claudia's advice to follow her heart no matter where it
takes you-and of course we know where that takes her.
One more thing I noticed in the PILOT as Liz enters the Crash
Festival and pauses for a moment b4 really entering any further
behind her is a sign that reads "PROTECTOR OF EARTH" so what do you
think?
07-04-2000 10:24 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Shapeshifter, I think those of us who attach importance
to the sign all agree (at least it has been posted several times)
that on one level it is about an intramural sporting event. (And I
accept your correction about the donkey. Before that I was relying
on someone else's word.) Most of the signs we wonder about have a
clear first-level significance, like the word CHANGE on the vending
machine between Liz and Maria talking at school. What intrigues me
is whether the writers are using it to suggest something else as
well. In this case I think they are, from the number of other hints
that seem to point in the same direction. Of course, one could raise
the same point about each of them. (Sometimes an EXIT sign is just
an EXIT sign?)
07-04-2000 10:28 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by amx
Grandma Claudia - I have always thought that the fact that the Pod
Squad can't yet 'read' the symbols leaves open the possibility of
someone providing a 'key'. What better way than a scholar who has
made a life-study of Native American culture. The key may be
wrapped in the shroud of GC's work and thereby be safe from
unintended users.
Wow! Of course! Well put, amx. I can picture Liz after she walked
away at the end of Destiny, finding her Grandma's book, reading it,
somehow seeing the symbols in Tess's book...maybe even sharing the
true meaning with Tess at which point Tess will either have her eyes
opened to the 'truth,' or fight it.
[Edited by shapeshifter on 07-05-2000 at 10:07 PM]
07-04-2000 10:38 PM
SF
Level 2
Registered: Dec 1999
Hey Rosta. Good to see you on the boards again. Congrats
on graduating.
quote:
Originally posted by LSS
BTW--did we ever discuss the exact function of the "alien essence"
referred to in
"Destiny"? Since we've been talking above about aliens & ancestry,
and since
Nesedo/Harding in The White Room told Michael that his powers were
simply those of advanced humanity...then what precisely does
"alien essence" do?
I'm still of the opinion that some of the energy alien ideas we
threw around on the SF of SH still stand. I can accept (for the sake
of the story) that down the road all humans will have telekinetic
powers, and will be able to manipulate molecular structures, but I'm
really doubtful that we will ever leave visible energy residues when
we do that kind of thing. The "alien essence" equals the blue/silver
energy. Maybe the "alien essence" allows their human brains to
operate at an advanced level. I'm not sure if just their blood cells
or all their cells are different, but maybe the "alien essence"
resides in the changed cells until it is called forth. To heal, to
bring light, to move things.
quote:
Originally posted by LSS
BUT just what is "alien" about our podsters?
I have to watch the white room again, but we've been shown that
Max's blood cells and cheek cells are alien (they're also identical
and I'm stopping right there). I don't think it's specified that
Pierce did any other tissue biopsies, however, those are very
different cell types, so I'm taking the leap that all their cells
are different. So the answer to your question is everything.
Morphologically they look human. They have human DNA, but all it
seems to have coded for is external and internal morphology, i.e.,
they look human, their skeleton looks human, their organ placement
and shape looks human, however the cells making up every inch of
them are alien, therefore they are 100% alien.
I'm still of the opinion a changed Liz works, the only problem is
that the mechanism I favoured for the change was Liz's body's
absorption of the handprint (like you said, Max shares some of his
essence/life force when he heals) and we don't know if Kyle had a
handprint or not. Since I think the whole soul mate/connection
happened when Max reversed the connection in the Crashdown, having
Kyle's genome change is not that big a deal.
07-04-2000 10:45 PM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
shapeshifter - argh, you quoted just before I managed to
fix my typo - how embarrasing!
Yes, I can't help feeling that we wouldn't have been told about and
shown GC's publication (I seem to recall getting the impression it
was some sort of definitive work on the subject also), if there
wasn't some deeper significance. Since the symbols and their meaning
are one of the few original issues left outstanding by the
mom-o-gram, this seems a logical connection - to me at least.
amx
07-04-2000 11:19 PM
pixiedude
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Eowyn
Max and Liz siblings: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Max and Liz soulmates/lovers
I wasn't thinking about actual brothers and sisters, though I
suppose that's possible. But I was thinking about a guy I used to
work with, who had a degree in anthropology. He told me that there
is a word, which I can't remember, for the tendency of people to
choose partners who look like them. He said that he and his wife
looked so much alike that, when they were younger, their displays of
affection drew disapproval from strangers. People who met them, and
didn't know they were married, often assumed that they were brother
and sister. It was not a trait he'd looked for in a spouse, or even
noticed until others pointed it out to him.
07-04-2000 11:30 PM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
pixiedude - I've seen this phenomenon referred to as
pattern or template - matching.
The process has some biological, rather than just social basis, in
that people who look similar often share traits in the major
histocompatibility complex that are complementary but different.
This results in greater immunoligical diversity amongst other
things.
If you are interested, I posted a fairly long-winded discussion on
this point on SublimeMuffin's "Biological Desires...." thread.
amx
[Edited by amx on 07-04-2000 at 11:33 PM]
07-04-2000 11:45 PM
rocklowery
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Boy, I go away for a barbeque and the next thing I know
you're on page 2, almost page 3!
LSS: as to my moniker, it is a nickname my husband gave to me in
college. At the time Rock Lobster was popular and since I was a
geology major, he thought Rock Lowery was a great play on the title.
I have to say though, I've really been "digging" the pod chamber
location shots. BTW for anybody who is coming to the LA gathering in
August, I think I know where those shots were done--a place called
Vasquez Rocks County Park near Palmdale. Evidently this site is very
popular for location shots.
The Max stepping down theory is intriguing, as shapeshifter has
already mentioned, maybe Michael will take the reins of leadership
with his trusty gal Maria by his side. This would make sense on two
fronts: he feels no attachment to Earth as his home and if the
aliens are indeed on Earth it would make sense to have somebody (Max
and Liz) remaining there to keep future invasions from occurring
while the other takes over as leader back home. It would also be an
interesting vehicle for the writers to use as Michael matures both
physically and emotionally. As to where that would leave Isabel, I
would think Earth is more of a home for her, and getting more so now
that she has human friends she can talk to/relate to on a deeper
level. (I'm not even going to discuss T***, maybe a convenient
wormhole... )
As for the Radiology vs Neurology thread, don't we learn later on
(WR) that the aliens get their powers from their Neural
transmitters? A tie-in or hint for a later episode maybe?
Could Grandma Claudia's ghost-o-vision have been caused by her
connection to Liz and not by what Max tries to do. Maybe he just
provided the initial energy needed to bring about this vision. After
all they both see her so maybe both of their mental abilities were
needed to accomplish this?
Well, that's enough for now. I need to hit the sack since I need to
leave early for work and it's already way past my bedtime. Can't
wait to see what y'all post while I'm away!
07-04-2000 11:53 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
I wanted to pitch something in, but I'm not very good at
the quote thing yet, so I'll just make reference and go from
there...
amx: I was thinking about the different ways fate and destiny are
thought of in various mythologies, especially the wyrd, which I was
not familiar with (I feel like I'm getting a college course on
mythological literature... for free! ) and an idea occurred to me
(I wish they had a smilie with a light bulb over its head).
Perhaps Max hestitated in saving Kyle, not because of his ambivilent
feelings about Kyle, nor because it might mean one more person in on
the secret. Perhaps on a deeper level he hesitated because he was
facing the question of changing someone's fate. Was Kyle really
supposed to die at that point? Was that his fate? Was it Max's
responsibility to change it? What would the repercussions be?
(there's always that ripple effect of consequences to be thought of)
This, of course, bring up the question: What was Liz's true fate?
Was she really supposed to die of a fatal gunshot wound to the
abdomen at the age of 16? Did Max change her fate by saving her,
thereby connecting them(as in some cultures where if someone saves
your life it "belongs" to them)?
Fate/destiny is a very tricky thing if you think of it in terms of
the wyrd (as I understand it, which is probably in a very basic
sense). The idea that you may have potentially avoided disaster, or
missed meeting your soul mate, because of some inconsequential act
which delayed you, is an idea that I've seen portrayed in many
stories. That's why people continually play the "what if" game with
themselves.
So, do you think the fact that Max was at the Crashdown, at the very
instant when Liz was shot, was somehow preordained? (I know, this is
a tv show, etc., but some of the stuff I've been reading on the
threads are pointing toward the idea that a M/L pairing was
inevitable in some way).
Reggie: Glad you have your own name. Just wanted to say, about the
God thing; Yeah, I know, but I kind of like to throw out questions
to see if I can get a conversation started. It really is interesting
to me to see how different Sci-fi writers tackle the question of
theology/spiritualism/existence of God, etc.
[Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 07-05-2000 at 12:00 AM]
07-05-2000 12:19 AM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Lorrilei - if, as I rather clumsily put it, you think of
wryd as embodying all things, it embodies all possibilities. So, a
bit like Schroedinger's cat, Max is both there and not, whilst
acting for the right and wrong reasons on each occasion, depending
on how you view it! I don't mean to be deliberately obscure, but
that is the best way I can explain it. As I wrote, acting out of
choice rather than submitting absolutely to the wyrd carries with it
inherent risk - the challenge is to manage the risk and deal with
its consequences. The wryd also has a flow and, according to Norse
mythology at least, 'acts' to maintain that flow - so, events that
are 'needful' will occur despite any individual's best efforts.
Thus, was there an inevitability about Max being present at both
shooting incidents, possibly. But, that doesn't mean he had to act
as he did - choice is always ours to exercise. I, at least, get a
sense of the wyrd drawing breath at each 'crisis' only to release it
when Max acts. In that sense, I feel he has chosen the path that
goes with, rather than against, the flow on both occasions.
amx
07-05-2000 12:33 AM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
SF- thank you. The pleasure is all mine, seeing you
here..AND AMX.. NEMO, LSS..what a treat for one night. And so many
others here I'm happy to see..
AMX, great post and points that I would struggle with for days to
put into words. Look forward to the rest of what you want to say.
It's so late that I have to copy and re- reread your post again at
breakfast.
GraceKel..the immaculate heart is VERY significant. Great catch.
Oooo..there is more.
I'm cutting and pasting a response to BLUECORNMOON I have been
working on off- line. Too tired to respond to the wealth of other
ideas here. I'll continue tomorrow.
Greetings BlueCornMoon!
Happy to "meet" you.
I'm not quite sure I understand what you want me to clarify, though.
Perhaps if you could share your response/disagreement/comment that I
can respond to. Sometimes I know what I mean and, it the haste of my
writing, I don't write in complete sentences, or explain the
subtext, or the subtext may have been discussed on another thread
before you came on board. Let me try..
Bluecornmoon said: You say Max will sacrifice himself (die or give
up Liz) for the good of the whole, or he'll give up his leadership
rights to Michael.
Weeelll..I didn't say Max WILL sacrifice himself for the whole..etc.
I do not know this to be true and can't say it will happen. There
are many possible scenarios. Sometimes there is "symbolic death"
and/or "rebirth" . My point was that this is a distinct POSSIBILITY.
And I only mentioned this in the light of Liz' comment from Grandma
Claudia. Cliches, but a possibility. Leaders often have to die (or
surround themselves with those who , professionally, will die for
them ...soldiers, seconds-in-command) for their people. The point is
some reconciliation between the spiritual and the worldly takes
place.
Note..I think the mandate (if it is to be believed) is ANCIENT and
no longer applies, even if the podsters were so inclined to act
Destiny-bound. Mom's waiting arms have probably turned to dust.
Unless there is a time-space portal, the time frame does not allow
for what we have been presented. They are their own persons
regardless of what Holo-mom tells them. Max emphatically tells
Tess-monster..."I am of this earth" Like Nemo, I have been less
resistant to time-travel notions. It is the only way to reconcile
this save-the-world mess if it is true, and other galaxy of origin.
Bluecornmoon said: Because only "superior" beings have a limbic
system, home of the soul, having a limbic system makes us superior
(?) and....
Oh...noooooo! You misunderstand (or I am making a wrong assumption). I
did not say "superior". That is a judgement. Judgements I try not to
make or imply. I am a scientist- among other names I can be called-
and I try to present concepts, facts or theories..but not
judgements. I also do not engage in religious discussions
unless...it's a religious discussion (vs. personal opinions). Again, I
don't want to attribute to you meaning you did not intend.
I do not know whether or not dogs, neanderthals, or shapeshifters
have souls. I do know that humans, dogs and other mammals, at least,
have a limbic system with differences. What humans have is more
layers of NEOCORTEX. Homo Sapiens are theorized to have developed
more neocortex and larger amygdala. Neanderthal may have been quite
"spiritual", with evidence of belief in an afterlife seen in cave
paintings, but the advantage of having more neocortex may have
conferred more survival advantage in a harsh and unforgiving
environment. The difference between humans and possible advanced
alien life might be even MORE neocortex.
I'm not sure what your science background is so I don't know how far
to go to explain this. Bear with me and I'll try and then explain a
briefly about research issues. It's very important to matters of
deciding what is "essence", personhood/personality, the soul, the
interface between the inner and outer cosmos, quantum reality, the
relationship to the divine.
SOME patients who have temporal lobe lesions and/or epilepsy or
amygdala lesions (even some people who have had electrical
stimulation experimentally report similar experiences) , exhibit a
SYNDROME with one, some or all of a complex of behaviors/emotions.
These include: (1) hyper-religiosity, feelings of profound
spirituality, feelings of possessing a great cosmic secret, direct
communication with god, (2) hypergraphia, (3) visions and/or
communications with divine beings (ie, angels, aliens, UFOs) or
ancestral beings (4) out-of body experiences, transcendance, ecstasy
(5) strong emotions, ie rage, ecstasy, terror, inappropriate
sexuality/ urges.
Some of these may be very mild to the extreme. I can't say that
someone is NOT conferring with angels. I may say, is there some
aspect of our brain that, when stimulated, allows access to another
dimension or layer of thought? Is it advanced?? Does it confer some
benefit (ie, evolutionary)? Is it accessible by meditation, drugs,
deprivation??? Does it confer survival benefit? Is some of this a
remnant of our (ie, early humans) unity with nature/natural events?
These are areas of research, theory and, in some instances, quackery
and hundreds of websites. Solid scientific research in
neuro-evolution, neuro-physiology, developmental biology and
neuropsychology is ongoing and exciting. In sci-fi, is it a
conduit/receiver organ? Are we spiritual because we have a limbic
system?
The temporal lobes/limbic system does not describe defined
structures. Instead it describes a functional unit of some defined
structures (and some structures still hypothesized to be limbic
related) AND the neural interconnections, which are vast, which
connect the limbic nuclei with limbic and frontal cortices and
inter-nuclei. The functional nature is still not well defined and
the words "neural substrate" is used by some. The sum (?personality,
?soul, ?spirit) is far in excess of the parts (neurons, neural
commections, neurotransmitters, etc).
The "system" (TL/LS) mediates memory, emotional memory, emotional
significance, associational behavior, sexuality, and related
cognitive processes. Emotional and social behavior in rhesus monkeys
with severed amygdala ( limbic nucleus) was studied many years ago.
Violent criminals were once studied after they had their amygdalas
severed.
The LS is the interface of the autonomic nervous system and
emotions, and the frontal cortex (consciousness, will, planning,
purpose).
Now that I have confused the issue or told you far more than you
wanted to know (references on request), I think we can get a sense
that this essence business ( soul, spirit, etc) and the origin of
their powers can get tricky...and quite fascinating.
Perhaps Max is talking about god ( = the creative force, hence
lifeforce) of the universe rather than God (capital G) as may be
interpreted by various "Earth" religions/belief systems. Perhaps it
will be revealed to us.
Bluecornmoon wrote: If you are to achieve your goal, love, it must
be done unselfishly. True, but ....
Mmmm...I'm not sure what needs clarification here. Love, the
heart..have meanings in the Grail literature. Love of self, of
another, of humanity is only part of the soul transformation.or
quest.
Bluecornmoon wrote: Earth mother looks like Alien mother. I agree,
so therefore Liz....
Actually, I was not referring to Liz here or drawing any
conclusions. I was pointing out that Mrs Evans (intentionally, by
casting, or pure conincidence??) looks like her adopted children.
Also, she has a less striking but similar appearance to holo-mom
(also see Mrs Evans' hairdo in BB and compare to holo-mon; this may
be coincidence, too..after all the producer's wife was around and
might work for free or scale).
It could be an attempt to show that holo-mom, even her "earth human"
guise, still appears to Max and Is as they want to see her, ie, in
the image close enough to the loved mother they know (OR that
Tess-monster or Nasedo/Harding knows and recreated??). As LSS said,
I don't think they put too much thought into the casting issues, but
I see the STRONG resemblance. I don't know what it means but the
implications....
Hope this helps. If not, I'll try again tomorrow. I'm rather
incoherent now.
ROSta
07-05-2000 12:35 AM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
amx - Thanks! That clarifies the concept of the wyrd for
me. I was thinking of it more like the "pond in the stone/ripple
effect" chain based on a choice made.
So, his presence may have been inevitable, but his choice to save
her was not. But in choosing to save her, was going with the flow so
the consequences of this choice will be less difficult than the
choice to let her die. (ahhhhhhh!!!! That sounded so weird, because
I wanted to say that he made the correct choice, but within this
framework, there really is not "correct" choice, right?)
I give up. This one is very slippery... especially this late at
night!
07-05-2000 01:05 AM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Oh Rosta, you are too kind! I'm still formulating some of
my thoughts on other issues, including some interesting points you
raised, and will post once I have beaten them into shape (or is that
submission?).
Lorrilei - yes, the pond is perhaps not the best analogy, except if
you look at it from an individual water molecule's point of view
(forgive the anthropomorphising). Each is connected to the other and
experience changes in concert with the others as the ripple passes.
I think, though, you are right - notions of right v wrong have
little meaning in wyrd, except in how they condition individual
choice and hence ultimate consequence. So, for Max to act as he did
is 'right' for him - leading to the revelation of his (and the Pod
Squad member's) secret, with furhter attendant consequences.
One of the ideas I am developing further is that wyrd, embodying
everything and all possibilities has both a past and future domain.
So, the queston of time travel may be moot but simultaneously very
relevant.
Now, I feel a little like the Red Queen, running (or thinking
really) as fast as I can just to stay on the same spot!
amx
07-05-2000 01:43 AM
LindaBB
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
Interesting ideas you all are presenting in this
thread...
It seems to me that the mention of the book on Indians was sort of
out of place in the whole 'visit' with grandma scenerio...
also I found it odd they did not mention Liz's accident.. with the
shooting?
And it also seemed to me, Grandma KNEW there was someone special in
Liz's life..that she was really fishing for information/or
validation for knowing this...she seemed to have a look on her face
that told you that Kyle was not it....
also the playing of words between Maria and Grandma...I found that
interesting...Grandma seemed to be totally tuned in to the 'spacey'
remark.
I'm not sure about foul play, but I do think it's possible will see
more connections with Grandma C....through the book, and through the
Indian lineage idea.
IN the books, Liz is Latin decent...I just always figured they were
trying to keep true to the original idea of Liz in the books...with
out the Latin last name..but the genetic's of the casting is
interesting!
ON a personal NOTE:
I've mentioned several times on this board that the only other TV
show to hold me in it's grasp as Roswell does...WAS Beauty and the
Beast in the late 80's.
WELL...dumb me, just realized that Liz's MOM is the second female
lead in that show!!!
AFTER Cathrine is killed, a young sharp female detective helps
Vincent find Cathrine's murderer, and it's Liz's MOM...she was
called Diane or Diana...
The series ended soon after finding and killing Cathrines
murderer...And Diana killed him! but it's her..I forget her
name...but connections in this world are very odd!!! LOL
I think her first name is JO???
07-05-2000 05:19 AM
Eowyn
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by pixiedude
quote:
Originally posted by Eowyn
Max and Liz siblings: Noooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
Max and Liz soulmates/lovers
I wasn't thinking about actual brothers and sisters, though I
suppose that's possible. But I was thinking about a guy I used to
work with, who had a degree in anthropology. He told me that there
is a word, which I can't remember, for the tendency of people to
choose partners who look like them. He said that he and his wife
looked so much alike that, when they were younger, their displays
of affection drew disapproval from strangers. People who met them,
and didn't know they were married, often assumed that they were
brother and sister. It was not a trait he'd looked for in a
spouse, or even noticed until others pointed it out to him.
Hi PixieDude,
Okay I understand what you are saying. Also just for chemistry sake
because Max and Liz look so similar they look well together. Sort of
the way they look shows they belong together.
Luv Always,
Eowyn
07-05-2000 06:53 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
This, of course, bring up the question: What was Liz's true fate?
Was she really supposed to die of a fatal gunshot wound to the
abdomen at the age of 16? Did Max change her fate by saving her,
thereby connecting them(as in some cultures where if someone saves
your life it "belongs" to them)?
[Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 07-05-2000 at 12:00 AM]
Very interesting questions. In Leaving Normal, however, didn't Max
assert that it was not "her time" when he was explaining why he
couldn't just "save" GC? Something about having a bullet in her
negated it being "her time". What do you think that ws all about?
Would healing Kyle mean that Kyle and Max are connected now as well?
given Kyle's general antipathy to Max (except when they are both
drunk) that could be problematic.
LSS
07-05-2000 10:16 AM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
LSS - I agree that Max's statement that it was not Liz's
time did sort of jump out at me...but I originally took it in the
context of "it wasn't natural" vs. GC natural death via the aging
process. Now, in light of the discussion of fate/destiny, I wonder
if Max somehow knew that she should NOT die because of her
importance to the future of his people. Yeah, it sounds kind of
hokey, but if we make all of those other connections which make Liz
essential to the whole alien mythology, then it does make sense.
07-05-2000 10:52 AM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
About being unable to save GC: When Max healed Liz and
Kyle, it was an injury, not a natural death. Natural deaths affect
so much more of the body, not just one site. For instance, the body
begins to shut down its systems(kidneys, brain function,
circulatory, digestive,etc.) ahead of time in most natural deaths -
making "saving" them much more complicated, if not impossible. With
an accidental death, if gotten to quickly, the body has not started
the death process and the damage is limited to the injury itself,
making it less complicated.
Does this explanation make sense with reguard to their healing
abilities?
07-05-2000 12:12 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Palomino, that makes sense to me. For a long time I was
trying to think that out, without success. Thanks for saying it so
well.
I also suspect the writers wanted to work in the phrase It was
before your time for other reasons. Eventually we may learn that
something important to AlienMom's plan happened, or was supposed to
happen, in Grandma's time.
[Edited by Nemo on 07-05-2000 at 07:15 PM]
07-05-2000 12:16 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Palomino
A Natural deaths affect so much more of the body, not just one
site. For instance, the body begins to shut down its
systems(kidneys, brain function, circulatory, digestive,etc.)
ahead of time in most natural deaths - making "saving" them much
more complicated, if not impossible. ....
Does this explanation make sense with reguard to their healing
abilities?
Yes it does explain it quite nicely. Well done Palomino!!! Thanks
for your articulate response!
LSS
07-05-2000 03:05 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
wow, what wonderful posts! hopefully what i'm adding isn't just a
repeat, sorry if it is...there's so much that's been said so well
already!...
anyway in thinking about the wyrd, and the mythological/archetypal
implications i'm struck by the fact that power doesn't equal freedom
or invunerability. so many myths in our culture seem to offer
something for free; and the sci-fi aspects of leaving normal
indicate just the opposite. it reminds me of the legend of gilgamesh
where power costs just too much.
sorry to repeat but i'm thinking of fate and destiny as two seperate
things. fate is when one is possessed and unable to make choices
within the confines of the mandate or situation. destiny is when one
consciously negotiates and thinks about options despite the mandate.
max, michael and isabel all make choices about the use of their
'powers'. what's striking is the continuim of how they see the
potential consequences of those choices.
so.... any more ideas on the podsters's understanding of
consequences and responsibility as far as their powers are
concerned? and what does that say about their capacity to cope with
their archetypal mandate(s)?
jenlev
07-05-2000 05:02 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
I'm not sure if I correctly understood your last line
about their powers and responsibilities (which would also encompass
their lives as humans).
I think Max has a pretty good idea already, and is probably thinking
even more seriously about it - probably with guilt. I see Isabel and
Miachael both being a little mind-boggled by it for now, but both
feeling varying degrees of guilt over how they have NOT used their
powers. But which had priority, self-preservation or duty to
do-the-right-thing?
Interesting to see how they change during the second season.
07-05-2000 05:14 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Reflections (a bit OT)
You know, I was reflecting on the idea of "normal" as I came into
work this afternoon. "Leaving Normal" has Max protesting to Isabel
that his cuts have to heal "normally" because everything has to be
"normal".
"Leaving Normal" is told basically from Liz's POV...through interior
glimpses/voiceovers we see how leaving normal can be dangerous, that
following one's heart can lead you to places that do not have happy
endings. Yet we (the audience) know that without risk there are no
"happy endings" ... that being normal is far from a guarantee for
happiness! Had Max and Liz not "left" normal, there would never have
been a "Sexual Healing."
Later, in Destiny, the theme of "normal" resurfaces. In the van,
with FBI agents and search dogs closing in on them, Max fervently
wishes that he and Liz were back in more "normal" times.
Normal--at its worst it sounds boring. At its best, however, it
seems to represent a more secure time for our teens Poor Max, by
Destiny, looking to the woman he loves...sadly wishing that normal
had never been left!
I found myself hoping that someday our characters can realize that
normal is not necessary...and can say, like that tipsy Max in Blind
Date...what's so great about being normal?
LSS
07-05-2000 06:13 PM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
jenlev, at least from the point of view of discussing the
origins of the concepts, fate and destiny are but two sides of the
same coin. They each compel and eliminate choice in individual's
actions. This is why I have such unwillingness to accept either as
an underlying premise. Wryd is much more attractive to me in that it
allows for choice in action or inaction - which I feel is more akin
to the ideas you are expressing.
However, I think in the more modern idiom destiny has come to mean
less than fate, to repeat myself a little, it is seen as less
'fatalistic' and has largely replaced wyrd as a concept.
LSS, what I think is very interesting is that there has been a
definite shift in the perception of what is indeed 'normal'. By the
time of Max's statements in 'Destiny', the halcyon he seems to be
yearning for is the very situation that held greatest fear for him
in the beginning. What he desires is what he claimed could 'never be
normal'!
amx
07-05-2000 07:00 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
palomino: so i just went back and re-read my last sentence on that
post. heh heh heh, i can't understand what the heck i was getting
at! sorry about that, it's been a long day.
i'm thinking of how 'over-responsible' max is presented as... and
how this can impare decision making. perhaps self preservation and
'doing the right thing' don't have to be mutually exclusive? (i hope
)
lss: perhaps the process of redefining 'normal' is a task for the
charactors next season? for the podsters normal has meant living
essentially in hiding, carrying secrets and avoiding relationships.
normal because it's all they have known. given this foundation the
idea of leaving normal is fraught with discomobulation. and, given
the history they have i imagine their perspective on what comes next
will be changed.
for example: because of their history will they take in stride
bizarre happenings because it's just more of the same?
amx: i agree with you that the framework for the concept of destiny
has changed. i think some of that is because of how our lives have
changed since the industrial revolution. we now have choices and
opportunities that people have never had before.
i prefer for the charactors (and everyone else) to have a choice;
rather then being bound by someone else's idea of how their lives
should go. it's interesting to consider how the charactors seem to
compel themselves at times. as if they are strugglinbg with the idea
and responsibility of having a choice at all? (not sure on this one)
jenlev
07-05-2000 07:08 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by amx
jenlev, at least from the point of view of discussing the origins
of the concepts, fate and destiny are but two sides of the same
coin. They each compel and eliminate choice in individual's
actions.
....
LSS, what I think is very interesting is that there has been a
definite shift in the perception of what is indeed 'normal'. By
the time of Max's statements in 'Destiny', the halcyon he seems to
be yearning for is the very situation that held greatest fear for
him in the beginning. What he desires is what he claimed could
'never be normal'!
amx
FATE/DESTINY/CHOICE: You know, in looking back over the series there
are a number of times when Max exercises a remarkable freedom of
"choice". Although in TLV he attributes his linking up with Liz to
"fate" in reality he "choose" to heal her (over the objection of
Michael you will remember). And Max "chooses" to heal Kyle in
Destiny--although Valenti pleads with him to do so. And at various
times Max "chooses" to keep the truth of what is going on very close
to him--often excluding both Isabel and Michael from background
informaton. And of course, the most interesting choice he makes is
to reveal to Liz his "not-of-earth" status rather than create some
cover story.
And the theme song..."I am who I am..." declares a kind of daring
individualism in itself! All of this makes the seemingly complacent
reaction in the cave all the more perplexing. Perhaps we can chalk
it up to the reality of end-of-season cliffhangers? Perhaps next
fall we'll see some of that freedom Max has so often displayed
throughout this season!
ON NORMALACY: Yes amx--it IS supremely ironic isn't it? Normal can
indeed be relative!!!
07-05-2000 07:21 PM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
jenlev, Yes, absolute pre-destination is unpalatable!
Choice and responsibility for consequnce; the province of adulthood?
This is one of the dramatic under currents I think the Roswell
script writers have handled with an admirable degree of subtlty, at
least to date.
Going away to think some more.
amx
07-05-2000 07:22 PM
Reggie
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Palomino
I think Max has a pretty good idea already, and is probably
thinking even more seriously about it - probably with guilt. I see
Isabel and Miachael both being a little mind-boggled by it for
now, but both feeling varying degrees of guilt over how they have
NOT used their powers. But which had priority, self-preservation
or duty to do-the-right-thing?
I think the whole predestination thing is making me woozy. Look,
"Mom" said he's supposed to do (this stuff). Max is a slave to duty,
as he perceives it. He's going to give it the ol' college try, for a
while; but I think he'll come to a point where It's Not Working.
(Michael, and perhaps Iz, will be there already. They know they
aren't a pair! But, Tess will need convincing.) Once Max is
convinced that something else has to be done, he'll exercise
leadership by dropping the planned "duty" in favor of something
else. At this point, Nasedo, Tic-Tac, and any other aliens will have
the chance to advise him.
This is where Max will come into his own. His "duty" to follow The
Plan must be relieved by his duty to survive, otherwise he can't do
anything. Remember: no plan survives contact with the enemy. For Max
to survive, and rescue his world(s), he will have to plan his own
way as needed, and execute that plan. This will show his leadership.
07-05-2000 07:36 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
lss: i wonder if the podsters were in a state of shock and
exhaustion in the cave rather then just passive? or some combination
thereof?
regarding the choices max makes, during the pilot episode in the
alley i think max says: "this secret can't last forever and i don't
want it to." then he says he is turning himself over to valenti. is
it possible that his mandate for survival was triggered in response
to the destructive nature of living in hiding and with his secret
for so long? and that his choices and uses of his powers were
connected to that?
if normal for max and the other podsters meant hiding, isolating,
living in secret then leaving normal was a step towards health.
(even though came with a terrible price.)
amx: yes, i agree about choice and responsibility for consequence
being a province of adulthood. also, there is the ability to let go
of assuming innapropriate responsibiity ... that may be the harder
task for some of these characters.
jenlev
[Edited by jenlev on 07-05-2000 at 07:47 PM]
07-05-2000 08:01 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Good evening,
I love what you are saying about "normal" LSS. Let me sit back and
re-read/catch up on the posts since last night.
In the meantime, I had some thoughts about your post last night,
LSS, I'm going to cut and paste:
LSS said: You know I've said several times that I could see Michael
stepping up into the leader position. But when I said it I was
refering to a Michael/coup not Max voluntarily stepping down. But
you are suggesting a sort of a King Edward/Mrs Wallace scenario. But
how does this affect his heroic quest status? What happens when the
hero decides the quest is not worth leaving home--that the grail in
the hand (Liz) is worth more than the one at the end of the journey?
Hmmmm..not quite the Edward and Wally scenario. Max' heroic status
remains intact because he will have accomplished the following:
restoration of the land and people (ie, reconciliation of his people
with their faith and spiritual connection with the cosmos;
restoration of fertility of the land/kingdom which is symbolic of
propsperity, productivity, procreation and continuance of his
people. In the grail tales this is embodied in the hero healing of
the wounded king, restoration of the kingdom.
The hero has learned to ask the right questions at the right time as
a result of his challenges. He or she is transformed, the soul quest
has been successful. In the tales, king/kingdom/land once again
recede under the waters (the unconscious), disappearing as suddenly
as they appeared- preceeded by the appearance of the symbols - that
started the initiation/quest/ maturation. The symbols/grail
bearers/grail disappear, never to be seen again until the next grail
quest is required..
Max would then be ready, after he has done what he called upon to
do- WILLINGLY- to begin the next quest..love and faith. There is
still a lot of work to do, a "kingdom to rule" and quests to embark
on. But it is not Parzival (Percival) who will continue. Because he
is human (not pure, not perfect, not without some less than pure
thoughts or spots on his heart), he will not be totally successful.
The next knight, Gawain, the chosen of Parzival, takes on the quest.
Gawain symbolizes the heart. Gawain can, symbolically, be male or
female.
If Max has reconciled with the evil, chaos, and other forces in the
world, if he has love, trust, and faith restored, if he has been
transformed spiritually, etc, then he has served- and been served
by- the grail.
His choice to serve (who do I serve by serving the grail) is
unselfish, compassionate, and a demonstration of his great love of
another...hence the world. That does not require perfection or purity.
Messianic figures are neither perfect nor pure. They are flawed and
make mistakes. Others make use those who try and they end up martyrs
because they have given up their control to others. I don't think
Max has any desire to be a martyr. I don't believe that will occur
(even in the UNLIKELY event that he will die in service).
More likely his death will be symbolic. Whatever is latent in his
being (all their beings) may evolve to a higher state when he (they)
reaches the state of self knowledge/soul evolution sparked by their
initiation into the quest. (At least as much knowledge as is
possible, since there will always be the mystery of the cosmos....the
cauldron/the cup/the egg/the stone symbols/the "Word"...which is at
the very heart of the grail tales).
His symbolic death (and rebirth) may be the leaving behind of the
child/adolescent/frightened Max and the emergence of the ADULT
confident Max who is reconciled in his faith/trust/love and
spiritual/social obligations
If Michael has come into his maturity, then he is more than ready
take on the responsibility to be the leader (he may be better suited
to it AT THIS TIME) and set out with Maria (we hope) or Isabel,
either of whom may end up CO-leader/ruler in addition to lover/wife.
I think the old/ancient ways are gone and have no place in the
modern world (refer to T. Hardy's Tess of the d'Urbevilles) and
M/M/I may responsibly reject them and assume/exercise their
responsibilities in the context of the world they know.
All the podsters may evolve when they understand their souls and
reconcile themselves in their world/universe. This will include the
responsibility of power.
I have not yet discussed Liz' importance (deliberately) but she
is..will be..central to this evolution and reconciliation and
restoration. Stating it very simplistically, they must not be LOST
in love with each other (as sweet as it is for us to watch), they
must be WHOLE in love with each other. Unselfish love. In this the
incomplete lovers will die and be reborn in the complete union of
the restored goddess: the restoration of the interrupted (Venus, the
symbol.....hint.. hint..) bloodline (ie, of the chosen) with the
messianic bloodline. Symbolic (and well hidden in the grail tales)
of the restoration of the goddess with the god, a highly blasphemous
notion that would bring on the flames of the inquisition.
There are a lot of mysteries and symbolic relationships and esoteric
meanings hidden in the grail tales that the tellers presumably
wanted to keep hidden from the established church and the growing
inquisition movement to stamp out this heresy).
I know Jason Behr is up to the acting challenge..but I hope the
writers are up to it: Max has to go deep down to the depths of his
soul/being to come face to face with his despair, doubts, internal
chaos, fear/terror and his own measure of evil (and it is there) to
be able to overcome his brush with evil and to reconcile with it.
His quest demands it. There is no way around it.
I hope the writers allow Max to deal with it. Because it is out
there still and will come for him and devour him if he doesn't. I
will lose all respect if the writers gloss over this. (This also
goes for the other podsters; they have to mature and face
this..Camelot has faded away). This is also true for Maria, Liz and
Alex. I think Kyle may not be up to the task unless he was able to
see into Max' soul. Liz, to help Max, has to establish her
individuality/soul transformation/rebirth. He needs her (as well as
all of the others, perhaps even the hamster).
Let me go now and catch up.
Rosta
07-05-2000 08:03 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by jenlev
lss: ...if normal for max and the other podsters meant hiding,
isolating, living in secret then leaving normal was a step towards
health. (even though came with a terrible price.)
[Edited by jenlev on 07-05-2000 at 07:47 PM]
jenlev
I REALLY like that idea! I think that is what I was trying to get
at, but couldn't quite put my finger on it!!! That is why Max's
statement in Destiny seemed so sad to me. "Normal" for them was
NEVER that great. It only looks good to him now that he 1) has a
destined gerbil trying to mate with him, 2) FBI agents chasing him,
and 3) an open incision still bleeding on his chest! (I guess he
could be forgiven for thinking if this was what happened when you
"left" normal, then leaving normal sucks!)
But you are right, and that is why in reflecting on the title of
this episode and then thinking about destiny, that I felt SO sad on
the interstate today! Thanks!
LSS
07-05-2000 08:39 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
rostafehrian: that was a wonderful post. i especially like the idea
about evolution into maturity equaling the death and rebirth cycle.
the issue for all the characters is to navigate this archetypal
process under extaordinary circumstance. yikes, what a task!
lss: thank you. yeah, i know what you mean, those destined gerbils
are a real pain in the neck! heh heh heh. anyway; maybe the
statement max made in destiny can be interpreted to represent an
aspect of the grieving process? (grieving being part of the healing
process) this may be a bit optomistic on my part though.
jenlev
07-05-2000 08:55 PM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Just a quick post!
Rosta - I agree, to paraphrase Tolkein, the hero's road 'goes ever
on', but it may not be straight!
I have been thinking about the whole notion of the grail and goal
achievement. To begin with, the grail symbolizes and is a vessel to
contain the quester's hopes and dreams. So, does the grail need to
be an inanimate object? Not necessarily. Also, in seeking the grail,
there are choices to be made, not least which of the vessels
presented IS the one actually sought.
Where does this lead - to my mind in the Roswell quest we are
encouraged to follow two prime seekers: Michael and Max (I'll leave
comments about the patriarchal underpinnings to other threads). They
seek self-actualization through knowledge of the wyrd, which, now
that it has been revealed, they further are challenged to fulfill.
But, I feel these characters are also being presented with a
divergence point; 'grail choice' if you will, at the same time. Do
they select the glowing (dare I say blonde) vessels presented to
them as their 'intended' mates or choose the more humble (human)
alternatives? Do they choose the grail fit for the king or the
fisherman? Whilst I hesitate to use the term 'vessel' in respect of
the female characters, this is virtually what we are being told (at
least in respect of Isabel and She Who Shall Remain Nameless) by the
mom-o-gram. Perhaps a better way is to see them as 'repositories'
for Max/Michael's hopes and dreams of normalcy, a better life, love
and acceptance. The question for each to be asked and whose answer
will decide the course of future events is - which grail will they
choose?
amx
07-05-2000 09:02 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
When Max pulled Michael into that empty classroom to urge
him to put away thoughts of retaliation, it looked like the
background wall charts were of the human heart. Any comments on the
significance of this?
[Edited by Nemo on 07-05-2000 at 09:06 PM]
07-05-2000 09:06 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
JENLEV said: it's interesting to consider how the
charactors seem to compel themselves at times. as if they are
struggling with the idea and responsibility of having a choice at
all? (not sure on this one) ......is it possible that his mandate for
survival was triggered in response to the destructive nature of
living in hiding and with his secret for so long? and that his
choices and uses of his powers were connected to that?... if normal
for max and the other podsters meant hiding, isolating, living in
secret then leaving normal was a step towards health. (even though
came with a terrible price
I love this JENLEV, especially the last part. Very, very well said.
I'd be struggling for days to convey this as elegantly.
AMX said: LSS, what I think is very interesting is that there has
been a definite shift in the perception of what is indeed 'normal'.
By the time of Max's statements in 'Destiny', the halcyon he seems
to be yearning for is the very situation that held greatest fear for
him in the beginning. What he desires is what he claimed could
'never be normal'!
and
LSS said: And the theme song..."I am who I am..." declares a kind of
daring individualism in itself! ....Normal--at its worst it sounds
boring. At its best, however, it seems to represent a more secure
time for our teens .... there are a number of times when Max
exercises a remarkable freedom of "choice"
LSS, AMX, I so like this and how you both have stated it. You are so
right about that line in the song, LSS. I wonder if Max and Iz had,
until their own entrance into young adolescence and before the
presentation of the symbols triggered in part by Max' use of his
powers to save Liz, engaged in actual denial while living in their
"castle"? Perhaps for a time they did allow themselves to even think
about that other-ness. Mom and Dad might "love it away"? How
frightened they must have felt everyday when the "other-ness"
started to bleed into their lives.
LORRELEI1960 said: I wonder if Max somehow knew that she should NOT
die because of her importance to the future of his people.
LORRELEI1960, I kinda wonder that, too. The way Max said that
line..as if he had some prior knowledge..some secret that he has not
shared with anyone. Perhaps it was just a sense, a vague/ill-formed
sense..but it was enough for him to act on it with possible only a
fleeting hesitation. I have to rewatch a try to "sense" the beat
between seeing and reacting. Perhaps the knowledge, at the time of
the incident, emerged from his unconscious...perhaps as if he were
reliving a prior act.
AMX said: ... and (I) will post once I have beaten them into shape
(or is that submission?).
My words, precisely. I feel as if I am beating words and sentences
into shape and the words, more and more, are exercising their free
will and getting away from me (the slippery little devils)with
increasing success as I get older . I think I have a few brain cells
left after the last month. It's an ongoing battle. We will not
submit! we will fight! We will even desert!, they declared yesterday
on Independence day.
Rosta
07-05-2000 09:09 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Sheesh, you guys amaze me!
I agree that what looks normal to them now was not too normal at the
beginning. It's sort of interesting, having gone through the entire
season, to go back to the pilot and connect the dots. In the Pilot,
when Max talks about wanting the secret to be out, that seems like
such an awful thing to the trio... but as jenlev said, it was a step
toward health. How can one be whole and complete unless they can be
free to be who they are? Being an alien is what Max is, and carrying
a secret like that would be an unimaginable burden. As part of the
grail quest that Rosta talks about, it only makes sense that he
would have to finally reconcile that part of him in order to become
the complete being that is necessary to obtain the grail.
07-05-2000 09:12 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Rosta, for some of us that only gets worse. Every day it
feels harder to summon a quorum of brain cells to duty....
[Edited by Nemo on 07-05-2000 at 09:18 PM]
07-05-2000 09:21 PM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Rosta - Nemo - so glad I am not alone!
Perhaps we should start one of those "Support Group" type threads:
"Help - I'm trying to articulate but my brain seems to be dribbling
out my ears!"
amx
07-05-2000 09:43 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
I keep getting reminded of that old line by Larry, Moe,
or Curly (can't remember which): "I'm trying to think...and
nothing's happening."
07-05-2000 11:01 PM
rocklowery
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Rosta, LSS, amx et al very interesting points y'all have
made, especially the comparisons to the grail, destiny and fate. I
have a little musical observation that might help explain Liz's and
Max's connection. I just finished watching the opening sequence
where Liz gets shot. Max jumps up, without hesitating as if he's
following some instinctive need to protect/save her. In the sequence
where he starts the healing process, you hear a line from S.
Mclaughlin's song "Fear." The line is "the never-ending circle."
Many religions look at life as a circle: birth, life, death,
rebirth, the purpose of which is to learn some type of lesson, or
gain experience or knowledge so that you can move on to a higher
plane. If something happens to interrupt that lesson then it is
repeated in your next life. Maybe his saving Liz started him once
again on the path that was interrupted in his last incarnation.
As we can see in the ongoing storyline, with each episode they
"awaken" to their purpose by furthering their search for their
origins. Even though mankind is looking ahead, we also have that
intrinsic need to connect with our past as an anchor that will reel
us in when we feel ourselves drifting. It's the cycle of maturity.
The interesting thing is that the catalyst for their awakening is
Liz and, later on, Maria and Alex.
I would like to go into the discussion about the grail but that will
have to wait for another time since it's already way past my
bedtime.
Jenlev: I think Max's motivation for turning himself in was to keep
Michael and Isabel safe and hidden, not a destructive tendency. A
good leader's first priority is to protect his charges. He realizes
what the consequences of his actions might be, but he's willing to
sacrifice himself to keep the others safe.
07-05-2000 11:06 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Nemo, Yes, the hearts in the background seemed
appropriate, whether accidental or on purpose or just as a bit of
interior decorating to set the scene. I like to imagine it as
accidental and thus it becomes a truly cosmic coincidence (in my
mind such coincidences have significance on a plane beyond the
mundane or obvious).
LSS, on the subject of 'normal:' I think of the many times I have
reassured a child that to be normal it is not necessary to be
'average' or 'typical.'
ROStaFEHRian, I liked your brain-lobe post. It fits in with Pierce's
comments about the function of a particular part of the brain and
links the mystical and physical realities.
amx & other fatalistic sojourners: Not finding 'wyrd' in Webster's,
I did a quick Google search and found a site
(http://www.wyrdsmiths.com/wyrdmyth.htm) that gave me the impression
that there could be a belief system (e.g. Home Planet's) in which
following Destiny was perceived as necessary for the preservation of
life:
"...Another part of the imagery of Wyrd, which is less easily
understood in practice, is that in the Nordic view they not only
spin and weave our lives into a weird, twisted fabric, but maintain
life itself: together, they live beside the Well of the World, and
use its waters to tend the roots of Yggdrasill, the World Tree...."
[Edited by shapeshifter on 07-05-2000 at 11:11 PM]
07-06-2000 12:18 AM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000
shapeshifter - it is interesting you should raise the
'Tree of Life' in its Norse form, this is a common symbol in
'fatalistic' societies. Think also of the "Tree of Life' designs
that are most commonly found in Persian carpets!
amx
07-06-2000 03:55 AM
JanetMG
Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Interesting posts all!
quote:
Originally posted by rocklowery
Many religions look at life as a circle: birth, life, death,
rebirth, the purpose of which is to learn some type of lesson, or
gain experience or knowledge so that you can move on to a higher
plane. If something happens to interrupt that lesson then it is
repeated in your next life. Maybe his saving Liz started him once
again on the path that was interrupted in his last incarnation.
I like this. If the writers are going to use reconstituted
"essence," it seems to me they should surround it with some
reincarnation theory. Further, it could fit very well with the
HoloMom-was-really-referring-to-Liz-as-the-"young bride"-theories.
Maybe Max "knew" it wasn't Liz's time because of his past essence
life where he wasn't able to save her (or simply the one he loved,
if you don't like the above theory). Could the past life experience
be why Max has focused more on healing, i.e., whatever his strengths
were before weren't enough and he "knew" that he'd need the skill of
healing? When describing their emergence from the pods, Max once
said that he & Is knew they would be okay if they stayed together.
Did a separation of siblings contribute to their past life deaths?
If the later flashbacks are true ones, is that why Max left the cave
with Is, leaving Tess in the pods? It makes me wonder what lessons
were interrupted in Michael's last incarnation that contribute to
his current struggles with trust and anger. (Could play into the
theories of past life Tess-betrayal.)
07-06-2000 04:42 AM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
thank you rostafehrian
my one remaining brain cel is quiescent this morning, so i know wht
you mean about trying to put thoughts together!
rocklowery: regarding your 7-5-00 post; i meant that when max wanted
to give himself up to valenti it would have been a move towards
health and away from the destructive impact of living with secret in
hiding all those years. i agree that his goal might also be to
protect isabel and michael. also, the tone of his statement "it
can't stay a secret forever and i don't want it to" suggested to me
the depth of despair and emotional claustrophobia that came with
living in such a way.
if the hero's quest involves maturation and self knowledge, that
would intensify max's drive to break the secret in some way. the
diffictulty with the way he was living is that he would eventually
be keeping secrets from himself?
jenlev
07-06-2000 06:40 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Rosta, amx:
In terms of suffering messiahs/savior figures...what did you make of
Max's comment in Destiny that he would die before he let anything
happen to one of the others (at the hands of the FBI)?
It could be also argued that Liz's leaving was, on her part, a kind
of self sacrifice as well--to "save" Max (or so she thinks) from
being distracted from his "destiny" (god, have I said recently how
much I hate that word? And you know, the funniest thing is that I
hear it all the time now!).
LSS
07-06-2000 01:28 PM
anothertrinity
Fan Registered: May 2000
I belong to the "Plan A of the colonization of earth was
shot to H__l " school of thought. Meaning that the pods could be
sort of an after-thought or Plan B.
This has ramifications that are relevant to this thread. (and I am
plagiarizing as I go)
1. mom-o-gram. I think Plan B might have been messed up too . What
if the podsters were supposed to see mom right after exiting the
pods or something. (let's face it, it's a bad gamble to put 6 year
old aliens on the loose without knowing where they come from, what
they are there for, etc..) Then all this talk of how thing were
supposed to be or should be could be flat out irrelevant, all these
elements have been introduced into their lives that may not have
"supposed" to have been there (ie, Liz, a "normal" life in roswell,
etc... Granted, calling the episode "Destiny" (if we look at the
classical definition so eloquently debated by you all) does imply
that regardless of when they "read" the mom-o-gram, it is relevant.
2. Liz. I think she is going to be important to the plan, but I as I
think things haven't gone as they should of, her presence in max's
life is not pre-mediated by alien-mom. But I do think GC may have
had some special insight or sense about Max.
3. Relationships. The fact that things did not go as they should
have gave Max and the podster's independent streak (a very HUMAN
characteristic) time to develop. We have heard Max say that he plans
to make his own choices and I think he will. Max clearly feels
responsibility very keenly, and I think he will take up the STP
mandate. But I think he will fight just as hard for earth, his home,
his family and friends.
07-06-2000 04:51 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
anothertrinity:
Your second post?
Welcome to the boards in general and to the SF of [episode] threads
in particular!!!
And you don't know how much I hope you are right!!! (That Max will
fight for his human love/friends/home!)
LSS
07-06-2000 05:58 PM
anothertrinity
Fan Registered: May 2000
yes it is my second post. but i have been haunting
crashdown for months.
07-07-2000 11:37 AM
loribell
Level 1
Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian
LORRELEI1960 said: I wonder if Max somehow knew that she should
NOT die because of her importance to the future of his people.
LORRELEI1960, I kinda wonder that, too. The way Max said that
line..as if he had some prior knowledge..some secret that he has
not shared with anyone. Perhaps it was just a sense, a
vague/ill-formed sense..but it was enough for him to act on it
with possible only a fleeting hesitation. I have to rewatch a try
to "sense" the beat between seeing and reacting. Perhaps the
knowledge, at the time of the incident, emerged from his
unconscious...perhaps as if he were reliving a prior act.
I have been thinking about the differences in Max's reaction to the
injured Liz and the injured Kyle. With Liz, it seemed that Max's
decision to intervene was more of a reflex than a choice. Max acted
so quickly that I can't believe there was a tentative bone in his
body regarding what needed to be done. In the case of Kyle, I felt
that Max was hesitant to act, and that perhaps his actions went
against his better judgment. After numerous reviewings of "Destiny",
I still cringe when I watch that scene where Max seems to take a
moment to deliberate on the fate of Kyle. When we consider the
differences in the conditions under which Max had to perform his
healing of Liz and Kyle, Liz's situation was certainly more
precarious. Max had only seconds to heal Liz before the ambulance
arrived. There were so many potential witnesses to Max's alien
powers present in the Crashdown. And, we must not forget that
Michael repeatedly tried to discourage Max from saving Liz. Yet,
there was minimal, if any, hesitation on Max's part. In contrast,
Max had almost perfect healing conditions with Kyle. He was
surrounded by people who supported and encouraged him. He had time
and needed to just focus on the task at hand. The only thing that
seemed to be stopping Max, was Max.
I have to agree with Rosta that Max must have had that
"vague/ill-formed sense" of greater things to come for Liz. I
believe something had to be at work to allow Max to act so
impulsively. For one who likes to "take a step back" and analyze
everything to bits and pieces, he certainly was not true to form
that day at the crashdown.
07-07-2000 12:27 PM
anothertrinity
Fan Registered: May 2000
Loribell,
you are right on about the differences on the healing of Kyle and
Liz.
I was thinking though that perhaps this could be a conflict with the
alien and human side issues that Max faces.
For example, what if Max's human side was causing him to hesistate
(he has any number of reasons to dislike Kyle.) But in this case the
alien side triumphs...seeing as healing is Max's special power.
of course this all speculation.
07-07-2000 12:44 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
How about the fact that he had been Liz's secret admirer
since they were little? If he had loved her all this time, wouldn't
that be enough to make him jump up and save her without hesitation?
The REAL question is WHY did he love her at first sight when he was
so young.
He didn't exactly get along well with Kyle - except drunk. But more
important in his hesitation to save Kyle was the commercial break.
It's an old devise, and one that was unfairly (to Max's character)
used. If you really wanted to explain it away, maybe Max had not
used his powers since Pierce's serum that surpressed them. Maybe he
wasn't sure he could do it, and required a moment to pull himself
together.
07-07-2000 12:59 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
palomino: your reasoning makes perfect sense... taking into account
what max had been through and his awareness that he had been
drugged; i would expect him to hesitate while wondering if he was
'up and running' again as far as his powers were concerned. and by
that point anyone's thinking process might be a tad slowed by the 48
hours or so that he'd been experienced?
also; as shocked (etc.) as he might have been by liz's being shot...
the situation with kyle was guarranteed to be overwhelming. after
all valenti shot kyle while trying to protect the podsters etc. and
michael just killed pierce... it's a lot to take in (especially just
before a commercial... which at least wasn't a tictac ad. )
either way, given his presentation upon using his powers in leaving
normal (as many people have posted about) the charactor seems to
have a strong awareness that using the powers isn't like flipping on
a light switch... isn't even guaranteed as far as results are
concerned. might max have also been thinking of the potential
consequenses of the healing not working? given the potential for
'flashes' containing images or memories of the person being healed,
that might also cause him to pause?
ok, so this is rambling speculation on my part, and a bit off the
subject of leaving normal. (oops) anyway, it seems as if the shows
producers writers and actors are being very careful not to present
the powers as something to be taken for granted. i wonder what this
suggests for the future?
jenlev
07-07-2000 01:10 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Palomino
How about the fact that he had been Liz's secret admirer since
they were little? If he had loved her all this time, wouldn't that
be enough to make him jump up and save her without hesitation? The
REAL question is WHY did he love her at first sight when he was so
young.
I think I agree with you. When Liz asked Max
"why?" he responded with that famous line..."it was YOU." But you
are correct in raising the issue of WHY was it "her". A number of
opinions have surfaced on various threads...but I think the main
schools of thought can be summed up by:
1) He had a long standing fantasy "crush" on her. (This option can
[but does not necessarily] call into question the depth / nature of
this "love".)
2) He somehow knew that she had an importance not yet revealed (cf.
the myrid of suggestions on "The Importance of Liz to the Alien
Mythology" thread.)
3) They were soulmates in the sense of the word that transcends
time/space/species. When he saw Liz he "remembered" her on some
level.
4) Liz was the alien in the 4th pod...it was like calling to like.
5) Liz was a Tess' surrogate. Having been separated from Tess, he
fixated on a replacement. Liz "became" Tess for Max (minus the
rodent like qualities).
6) He simply loved her at first sight...and he knew then (on some
level) what he only later would voice...I wanna be with YOU Liz.
I may have missed some...but it strikes me that alot of energy has
be focused on the WHY question as you so aptly noted.
LSS
p.s. ON MAX'S POWERS...correct me if I'm wrong...but didn't Max use
his powers BEFORE that scene? Remember when he asked Kyle to turn
around and the did his samantha-genie thing with the doorknob?
07-07-2000 03:53 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
lss: you're right. any other ideas on his hesitation?
jenlev
07-07-2000 04:17 PM
anothertrinity
Fan Registered: May 2000
Noticed there are some WA-staters out there. good to know.
[Edited by anothertrinity on 07-07-2000 at 04:24 PM]
07-07-2000 04:17 PM
anothertrinity
Fan Registered: May 2000
WHY was it "her". A number of opinions have surfaced on
various threads...but I think the main schools of thought can be
summed up by:
1) He had a long standing fantasy "crush" on her. (This option can
[but does not necessarily] call into question the depth / nature of
this "love".)
6) He simply loved her at first sight...and he knew then (on some
level) what he only later would voice...I wanna be with YOU Liz.
So I am voting for #1 or #6. Here's why.
Max and Liz are star-crossed lovers. I think the writers have
essentially beat us over the head with this.
Unless they are just setting us up, Max and Liz are not supposed to
be together. (and think about it...we hate the idea that anybody is
destined for anybody...ie mice and max.)
Therefore, I am hesistant to concede that Liz has any pre-ordained
mission for the podsters. I think that she and humankind are going
to be crucial to the survival of the aliens (they already have been
as has been stated) but I don't know if it was part of the plan.
07-07-2000 04:34 PM
Jamethiel
Fan Registered: Jun 2000
More thoughts on Max's hesitation to use his powers in
both "Leaving Normal" and "Destiny." We don't know how much
energy/focus it takes for Max to heal complex injuries. My sense is
that it takes a great deal of energy for Max to heal someone, which
is different from just "melting" a doorknob. He certainly seems to
"strain" over Grandma Claudia. We don't know if he's getting flashes
from her, but processing another person's thoughts would be pretty
draining, I suspect!
I do think the writer/producers put the hesitation in healing Kyle
at the act break to create tension. It isn't in Max's character to
hesitate to help those he cares about, though the question does
arise...if he could heal Kyle, why didn't he attempt to heal
Pierce...? (Other than the obvious that he was a ratfink FBI guy).
Ethically, Max shouldn't be only healing his friends, and the
original intent (as demonstrated by the ruse with Valenti) was not
to kill Pierce. So if we give Max (rather than the writers) the
benefit of ethical thinking, he could be hesitating because of the
dichotomy of only helping his "friends." A good Samaritan helps even
those who are outcast, and Max, as played, is the best of good
Samaritans.
This leads back to thinking about Max's reluctance in healing
Grandma Claudia. On some level, I was disappointed that Liz would
ask Max to risk himself by using his healing powers. It made it seem
as though she was only interested in what Max could do for her...or
Grandma and not recognizing the possible danger it put him into. On
the other hand, it did make us realize that even Max doesn't know
the extent of his own abilities. Max was definitely surprised by the
ghost of Grandma Claudia...and it was nice to give Liz closure with
her Grandma.
By the way, I love the "science of" threads, I'm still trying to
wrap my brain around the differences between wyrd, fate & destiny!
07-07-2000 05:11 PM
rocklowery
Dedicated Fan
Registered: Jun 2000
Another aspect of healing Kyle that could've made Max
hesitate is trust, how does he know that they can trust Kyle to keep
their secret once he's up and running (so to speak). He also looked
completely drained by the healing, he almost fell over afterwards.
07-07-2000 05:12 PM
rocklowery
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
OK, the REAL reason Max hesitated:
He REALLY didn't want to see any flashes of Kyle kissing Liz!!
07-07-2000 05:36 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
LSS : I liked your #5 reason. If the podsters emerged
early, due to a malfunction or miscalculation of the pods, Max might
have been prepared to latch onto a life-mate, but did not have the
opportunity to accomplish the bonding. Or this is a natural stage
(short-lived?) that would have been supervised by one of the adult
aliens - had they not been so incompetent. If they realize the
window of opportunity was missed for the planned bonding, what will
they/have they done?
He may have been lonely for some time, not knowing who or what he
was lonely for(Toy House). Since they were able to communicate among
themselves, it is not impossible that he had an innate ability to
weakly probe the minds of those he came in conact with -searching
for his mate. This ability may be a particular stage in them (like
the sucking instinct). If their biological drives are so much
stronger than ours, this may be a necessary and normal instinct in
them. Mi/I, being separated for three years, never had the chance to
make the "mate" connection, and for various reasons, did not find
surrogates. Max, on the other hand, may have selected his on his
own.
Which kind of gets back to why he instinctively healed Liz. "It was
YOU." By instinctively healing his chosen one, he has initiated
bonding; she has now accepted and recipricated.
I don't think the aliens ever intended for her to be part of THE
PLAN, but I do think that the Native Americans, through visions,
folklore, or prophesies, know about the alien/humans, and Liz's
up-coming part in THE PLAN...Sorry, I guess I've mentioned that a
hundred times before.
[Edited by Palomino on 07-07-2000 at 07:28 PM]
07-07-2000 08:38 PM
Karst
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
The hesitation over healing Kyles always makes want to
give Max a good shake. But then when he gets started I think of him
saying to the sheriff, "This is how it all got started and everyone
got onto us."
I take the hesitation to mean Max hadn't fully accepted Valenti yet.
After healing Kyle, he seems to have a look on his face as if he let
the sheriff see something really personal. Maybe it was showing the
sheriff up close how alien he was that bothered Max. That was
exactly what the sheriff had been hounding him over to start with.
07-08-2000 04:14 AM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
karst: good point about max having to really trust valenti more
deeply in order to heal kyle ... on top of everything else, he might
be fearful of how valenti would respond to him if he did succeed in
the healing?
jenlev
07-08-2000 06:12 AM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Just one other little thing to add.
We really don't know what Max has to go through to heal someone. He
has never said, but we can tell that it takes alot out of him. The
expression on his face each time makes me wonder if perhaps he feels
any pain?
With GC, maybe it was just the effort of earnestly trying for Liz's
sake. What if when he healed Liz, he felt some of her pain? (With
the little bird, maybe it was less effort, and at 6-7 his happiness
at seeing it fly away kept him from having a negative feeling about
it.) Anyhow, what if he hesitated, because of the torture he had
just been through? He had to steel himself to withstand another
blast of pain as well as flashes from someone who feels great
dislike for him. In his condition, this might have caused Max to
pause.
Just a thought.
07-08-2000 12:52 PM
rocklowery
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
SHAMELESS BUMP!!!
07-08-2000 07:10 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
quote:
Originally posted by amx
shapeshifter - it is interesting you should raise the 'Tree of
Life' in its Norse form, this is a common symbol in 'fatalistic'
societies. Think also of the "Tree of Life' designs that are most
commonly found in Persian carpets!
Speaking of tree designs, in RD there's a curious one in the
background at Liz's place when M/M/I meet Liz and Maria for a
"private talk" after the burglary. (Just right of the figurine with
the upraised wings or arms adorned with feathers. It's one panel of
a larger tapestry on the wall. The camera angle favors it several
times.) At the top of this treelike figure are four leafy bundles at
equal height. The three on the right are close together, with stems
below them closely twined. The one on the left is more separate; it
connects to the same trunk, but only at the bottom. It reminds me of
a family-tree diagram. Does anyone think this could symbolize our
three favorite podsters, plus one more person who is now of the same
age, but more distantly related?
07-08-2000 07:22 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan
Registered: Dec 1999
Nemo sorry I did not notice this tree thing I will go
back and look!
I have a question I asked on another thread and although it isn't in
LN everyone seems a little off topic here so here goes....
At the end of TLV the sheriff took pics of Mr Harding and Tess house
and in Four Square he was looking at this pic of what looks like Mr
Harding shaking hands with Liz smiling and Max beside her------when
did this happen???? Where is Tess? Wasn't Mr Harding more inside
from the doorway? Am I crazy? Could a false image have been
projected? Or is this a blooper?
07-08-2000 07:49 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by jenlev
lss...any other ideas on his hesitation?
jenlev
jenlev:
As I see it you are left with one of three general categories of
explanation (and some of the examples in each have been mentioned in
the above posts:
1) Max's hesitation is grounded in something about MAX:
a. Max is fearful of taking on the hurt of healing (remember he is
not been out of the White Room for long; if healing expends a great
amount of energy Max may be to some extent "at risk").
b. Closely connected with the above is that, due to the proximity of
the White Room, Max is not sure whether he CAN actually heal Kyle
c. Max does not think he is GOD...actually if it had been anyone
else shot on that day at the Crashdown...he WOULD NOT have healed
them. In a way, Max's action (healing Liz)was to a degree "selfish".
********************************************
2) Max's hesitation is grounded in something about KYLE:
a. Max is not sure if Kyle is trustworthy ...after all, who untied
Pierce in the first place? BTW Valenti has "proved" himself already
(but the son has yet to show any cause for Max to trust him).
b. He does not want to see the "flashes" this may produce...nor does
he want the possibility of a long term "connection" with Kyle
*******************************************
3) Max's hesitation is based on something other than Max OR Kyle:
a. Max does not know how much he can trust Valenti
b. It is purely a dramatic device to extend tension over the
commercial break.
And I am sure that there are more. If I personally had to choose
from the above I think I would go with 1c or 2a.
It will really be interesting to see what happens in the fall. But
you know--I would have thought that Kyle's characterization would
have been developed more after BD...and it wasn't. I was sorry to
see Kyle then ignored for several episodes. Just goes to show that
even the most logical analysis falls prey to the vagrancies of a
show's writers!
LSS
07-08-2000 08:43 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan
Registered: Mar 2000
Good Evening Everyone
My computer crashed 2 days ago, so rudely interrupting me in the
middle of posting. I could not re-boot because my a-drive is broken
and it appeared, for awhile, that my c-drive had been exterminated.
I found a shop with a good tech (so un-CompUSA)who got me running
again in 5 minutes for a diagnostic fee of $35(actually I grovelled
and begged and pleaded that I could NOT wait until Tuesday for
repair). Anyway, back OT..
LSS, I agree with you. My feeling is that Max' hesitation is related
to his statement about not being God. I believe that is a deeply
personal struggle for him and an AWESOME responsibility to have such
power. I believe that saving Liz was for selfish reasons, but only
in part.
Perhaps he lived this moment in his "previous essence" (I wonder if
he even had this power in his prior existence?). Perhaps he did
not/could not save that other Liz (??a costly hesitation in this
prior life). I'm just wildly speculating here (I actually have other
thoughts).
Perhaps, he "knew" her in the previous life(ie, secret lovers uknown
to his family or the gerbil? she-who-is-now-Liz was his young bride
and not the gerbil?. Perhpas he carries in his essence (ack) the
memory that a train of events would be set into motion (??again??)
by her death.
Don't take this to mean that I accept the STP mandate crap. I'm just
disoriented and temporarily deranged because I thought all my files
had been lost on my computer.
I think any antipathy towards Kyle actually would have,
comparatively, minimal contribution to his hesitation. I think it is
the moral dilemma that overrides the interpersonal ones and I also
feel, as I mentioned up yonder somewhere, that I think healing is a
VERY painful and/or less than pleasant experience which might also
contribute to his hesitation for reasons of self preservation.
I'm sure he has questioned himself over and over...why not heal a
child or a mother or father with childre. If he has the power, what
is the purpose, and if it is a gift, why should he selfishly worry
about his own life, hiding, eating meatloaf and drinling coke?
BTW, does anyone have any thoughts (maybe it has already been
discussed) why Max could not help himself at some point in his
captivity before he was drugged? He certainly can manipulate
molecules and generate a lot of heat although perhaps to the degree
Michael can.
Rosta
07-08-2000 08:51 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Good Evening Everyone
My computer crashed 2 days ago, so rudely interrupting me in the
middle of posting. I could not re-boot because my a-drive is broken
and it appeared, for awhile, that my c-drive had been exterminated.
I found a shop with a good tech (so un-CompUSA)who got me running
again in 5 minutes for a diagnostic fee of $35(actually I grovelled
and begged and pleaded that I could NOT wait until Tuesday for
repair). Anyway, back OT..
LSS, I agree with you. My feeling is that Max' hesitation is related
to his statement about not being God. I believe that is a deeply
personal struggle for him and an AWESOME responsibility to have such
power. I believe that saving Liz was for selfish reasons, but only
in part.
Perhaps he lived this moment in his "previous essence" (I wonder if
he even had this power in his prior existence?). Perhaps he did
not/could not save that other Liz (??a costly hesitation in this
prior life). I'm just wildly speculating here (I actually have other
thoughts).
Perhaps, he "knew" her in the previous life(ie, secret lovers uknown
to his family or the gerbil? she-who-is-now-Liz was his young bride
and not the gerbil?. Perhpas he carries in his essence (ack) the
memory that a train of events would be set into motion (??again??)
by her death.
Don't take this to mean that I accept the STP mandate crap. I'm just
disoriented and temporarily deranged because I thought all my files
had been lost on my computer.
I think any antipathy towards Kyle actually would have,
comparatively, minimal contribution to his hesitation. I think it is
the moral dilemma that overrides the interpersonal ones and I also
feel, as I mentioned up yonder somewhere, that I think healing is a
VERY painful and/or less than pleasant experience which might also
contribute to his hesitation for reasons of self preservation.
I'm sure he has questioned himself over and over...why not heal a
child or a mother or father with childre. If he has the power, what
is the purpose, and if it is a gift, why should he selfishly worry
about his own life, hiding, eating meatloaf and drinling coke?
BTW, does anyone have any thoughts (maybe it has already been
discussed) why Max could not help himself at some point in his
captivity before he was drugged? He certainly can manipulate
molecules and generate a lot of heat although perhaps NOT to the
degree/distance that Michael can.
Rosta
[Edited by ROStaFEHRian on 07-08-2000 at 09:09 PM]
07-08-2000 08:52 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
...everyone seems a little off topic here so here goes....
At the end of TLV the sheriff took pics of Mr Harding and Tess
house and in Four Square he was looking at this pic of what looks
like Mr Harding shaking hands with Liz smiling and Max beside her
I thought this whole sequence was pretty 'off-topic' with what was
to come later (giving Max the Orb and trying to get on their team).
07-08-2000 09:31 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Jamethiel
I do think the writer/producers put the hesitation in healing Kyle
at the act break to create tension. It isn't in Max's character to
hesitate to help those he cares about, though the question does
arise...if he could heal Kyle, why didn't he attempt to heal
Pierce...? (Other than the obvious that he was a ratfink FBI guy).
Ethically, Max shouldn't be only healing his friends, and the
original intent (as demonstrated by the ruse with Valenti) was not
to kill Pierce. So if we give Max (rather than the writers) the
benefit of ethical thinking, he could be hesitating because of the
dichotomy of only helping his "friends." A good Samaritan helps
even those who are outcast, and Max, as played, is the best of
good Samaritans.
I agree with the thought that the hesitation was probably prompted
by the need for a station break... but there were other moments that
could have occurred... so why there? There is probably a little more
to it. I'm not sure exactly why Max hesitated, but I can't really
believe that Max would be so petty as to NOT save Kyle simply
because they weren't on friendly terms. Max, being who he is, would
probably feel responsible for the whole situation... and that leads
me to believe that it was something else... but I'm still thinking
that one over (and you guys have some great thoughts on the
subject...keep them coming )
re Pierce: I don't think that Max, even if he wanted to, could have
healed Pierce. Pierce was already dead. As Max himself has said, he
isn't God and it seems that his powers to heal have dealt primarily
with getting rid of something that wasn't supposed to be there (like
bullets) or have been minor (like Michael's black eye). To what
extent they have the power to heal the body I don't think even they
know. And I do agree, it does look like it would take LOTS of energy
and concentration.
BTW, even if Max's intentions with Pierce may not have been to get
rid of him, Valenti certainly had that in mind. He more or less told
Michael this while Max was questioning Pierce. There wasn't really
any other choice for Valenti. He could not turn in Pierce, and he
knew that Pierce would not hesitate to kill anyone who got in his
way.
Whew... now I'm off to think about this some more... provided my
9-volt brain doesn't fritz out.
07-08-2000 10:19 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
re Pierce: I don't think that Max, even if he wanted to, could
have healed Pierce. Pierce was already dead.
Exactly. For the same reason, I think that Max has no complicity in
the death of Hubble, who appeared to be killed instantly.
07-08-2000 11:03 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
So, what we are really wondering (I think), is: what was
Max supposed to be thinking during that tension-creating moment. How
about: what if he attempts to heal Kyle and doesn't succeed? Would
it be a possible repeat of the Sheila Hubble scenario (blamed for
killing)? Or maybe his alien warrior stuff kicked in, and it was not
a good use of energy to heal the attacking enemy.
Um, excuse me, but is that a porno ad flashing on my screen? And am
I supposed to click there to support this Message Board? I think
not!
07-09-2000 04:39 AM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Rosta:You asked further up the thread why Max did not use
his powers against the FBI when he was first caught.
1. In the beginning, Max seemed to hope he could bluff his way out.
He never admitted anything. To use his powers would not only be
admitting that he had them, but that he could be dangerous.
2. There were so many FBI agents around him on the van, that he
probably had no chance, or at least thought he had no chance, of
escape. We also don't know how many of these agents came storming
into the house of mirrors seconds after the capture.
3. Waiting for the episode "Max to the Max" I had thought they might
capture him by way of dart gun with something that would knock him
out or take his powers. Since we don't see what happened to him
after the first few seconds of being caught, they could have given
him something, (even though he still had his jacket on), either in
the neck or through the pants into a leg muscle.
4. Pierce had been studying him so long, starting with Topolsky,
that he knew what Max's reactions would be, including not using his
powers.
Palomino
07-09-2000 05:29 AM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
lss and rostafehrian: the ideas your brought up make sense, and all
of them would contribute to the hestitation. i'm going to go with
your 'i'm not god' theory as the primary motivation though. it's a
central aspect of the charactor's response to many situations: an
awareness of POWERLESSNESS instead of a feeling of empowerment. this
might change more in season 2... and already had begun to change in
'destiny'?
palomino etc.: the lack of empowerment fits with what has been said
about how max initially responded to being captured by the fbi. i
agree that he would not have wanted to let the fbi know what his
abilities were as it would also be 'admitting' to 'everything'.
initially 'bluffing' may have seemed like a workable option.
my sense is that they fbi basically rolled over him with a lot of
manhandling and intimidation as well. given that it was max's worst
nightmare; and his fear about the other charactors he could have
been intimidated? in fact, abject terror can really imobilize a
person... reasoning and problem solving are reduced when someone is
that frightened.
palomino, i agree that the observations of max by the fbi would
certainly have picked up on his style of response, his secrecy, and
his wish to blend in. also, his wish not to appear dangerous to
people around him. interesting that in his wish to present as
benign, that he himself became increasingly vunerable to others.
also: in destiny max (i hope i got the quote right) said: " we are
more powerful than we know" it suggests to me that hesitation about
healing, and not using powers to escape the fbi are also a product
of lack of confidence and experience etc.?
jenlev
07-09-2000 08:10 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by jenlev
also: in destiny max (i hope i got the quote right) said: " we are
more powerful than we know" it suggests to me that hesitation
about healing, and not using powers to escape the fbi are also a
product of lack of confidence and experience etc.?
jenlev
Your words above remind me of something about Max's characterization
post-White Room. Someone on another thread mentioned that the Max we
encounter in Destiny "looked older". Now we all know that JB is 27
not 17...but that hasn't changed--what then were they picking up on?
The Max of Destiny (after the chase scene) comes off with more
confidence--and a determination that fairly shouts what we we only
find out at the end--that he IS a true leader. At his command they:
trust Valenti, take out a unit of the FBI, etc. Moreover,
Nesedo/Harding himself takes orders from his Commander-in-Chief! And
this Max says to Liz what the former Max never did--I love you!
It is almost as if the experience in White Room purges Max of some
of his innocence and makes him "grow-up". One wonders if the next
time (if there is a next time) he is captured by the FBI--if the FBI
will fare as well as they did in White Room!
LSS
07-09-2000 09:05 AM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Good morning!
PALOMINO- I agree with you that Max might have been trying to bluff
his way through the capture. He did tell Pierce to call his parents.
He probably did not fully appreciate (or want to think about) the
extremes of the ordeal to come. That might have overcome his
reticience to reveal himself by using his powers to escape. I also
agree that intimidation had a big role in this in addition to his
hesitation to destroy life.
JENLEV- I like the way you put that. Powerlessness. I have no doubt
that feelings or powerless, loss of control, constant terror (and
kept off-balance not knwing when the next attack would occur),
abandonment (along with the veil of pain and drugged disorientation)
were his constant companions.
For these reasons, I believe that this was the first symbolic death.
The Max that came out of the WR is not entirely the same one that
was forced in.
LSS- I agree, innocence is most definitely gone. I'm not sure if I
felt confidence as much as rage-powered determination.. The same
determination behind the words (paraphrasing) .. "I will die before
I let them do (this) to you.." He means it. His scene with the
captured Pierce was a chilling Max who had determined 'never.
again'.
Did anyone notice how, in the scene in the WR when Pierce gives him
the silver thing-ies that the lighting/angles/hair make Max appear
as if he is 12? This last image of him in the WR is a sharp contrast
to the scenes where we see him in action which gives the appearance
of having aged. I think it was very clever, but that is only my
observation.
Sorry this is OT to LN but I had to comment on the line that Max
said to Liz when they were still on the run, something like: "Liz,
if we make it through this..." . Thoughts?
Rosta
(feeling really bummed and powerless because I accidentally left the
VCR on while I was freaking about my computer and erased all of my
season one eps on the tape and all I'm left with is...Destiny..which
is on another tape after the season finale of XFiles).
07-09-2000 09:18 AM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
Actually, on reconsideration, LSS, there is new confidence
in Max giving the orders as you state, and having those orders be
followed. But most of all you are so right about that "I love you".
He is very clear headed and forceful about what HE wants regardless
of the holo-gram. He appears to be aware of the potential gravity of
the mandate but, unlike Micahel, he is less impressed with the
lights and mirrors show and instead deplays a confidence about what
his/their priorities are. Evidence he is less than impressed: no
hesitation: us four M/M//I/L, he states, and NOT the gerbil who he
bodily moves out of his way (kicked to the curb).
He is certain...and it is puzzling that at that moment Liz does not
accept his certainty (although as storytelling this was highly
predictable).
07-09-2000 09:29 AM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
NEMO, hi!
I so look forward to you finding signs and symbols. I have not seen
so many eps, still. And if you read my sad tale below, I realized I
wiped out a tape of eps when I went to look for the tree you
described in RD. Have you come across a screen-cap of this anywhere.
There are so many things, I'd like to start a signs,symbols and myth
thread in a few days (I still have to turn in my paper this week and
have a lot of editing to do). Interested?
Rosta
07-09-2000 09:37 AM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Good morning!
I agree with everything that has been said about Max feeling
powerless in the hands of the FBI. I'd like to add one more thing...
most children are taught (or conditioned) to obey authority figures,
eg, adults, police, teachers, etc. This conditioning stays with us
for a long time. The automatic response of most of us, even as
adults, is to obey guys with badges. They tell us to stop, we stop.
They tell us to come with them, we go. Even knowing we are in
danger, we tend to trust and obey those figures. Now with Max,
certainly there was no trust... but as someone stated, he probably
thought he would get out of it somehow. He really had no idea what
Pierce was truly capable of. After all, Max is only 17 and fairly
innocent if you think about it. He lives in a small town. He's led a
sheltered life with Philip and Diane Evans. Even the appearance of
Topolski didn't alarm him... it was actually Maria and Liz who began
to suspect her and pointed this out to him. For an alien, he's not
very worldly. (pun intended )
07-09-2000 09:48 AM
throswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
ROStaFEHRian: There was another thread awhlie back
discussing what Max was going to say after "Liz if we ever make it
through this". A lot of us thought that he wanted to tell her about
Tess, the book, the "pregnancy thing" between M/Is and everything
that had happened since 4Sq because he hadn't talked to her since
then. I've seen some people questioning why Liz would bring up all
the Tess stuff in the van when she'd just got Max back. I think he
did, not her because after what he'd just been through he wanted to
make sure Liz knew how he really felt. Also, at the end of Destiny I
think Liz misunderstood what he meant when he said "it's the 4 of us
now". I think Liz felt he was accepting Tess as one of the Pod Squad
and it made her feel excluded.
07-09-2000 09:49 AM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
rostafehrian: my heart goes out to you regarding your vcr accident.
yikes. i had a similar thing happen earlier this spring, and am
still working on recouping.
lss & rostafehrian: regarding max's age presentation. i think that
max may have appeared older... but i'm not sure about his level of
confidence. i got the sense that the charactor was bracing himself,
and also that his experiences had peeled back several defensive
layers that he had masked himself with. in a sense he was in the
process of 'becoming more himself' (not hidden). even as he matures,
he will still be left with the impact of his growing up, heritage,
and trauma. (sorry to overlap with the psychological effects thread.
)
anyway, a symbolic death makes good sense. although i wonder to what
degree he was ever 'innocent'. that is, given his knowledge of his
alien nature and his expectations of the outcome of being
discovered. or maybe i'm using a different defenition of innocence?
despite his symbolic death, rebirth, increased confidence +/or
determination (rage?); he still is beset with a large degree of
powerlessness. even if he rejects tess, no matter how he responds to
the 'dread-momogram', he is still something of a pawn in the large
theatre of absuridity that is the destiny plotline?
perhaps his increased level of confidence and maturity is
specifically in response to his awareness that he does have a
choice, and that he can survive?
regarding how young he looked when pierce gave him the orbs: good
thought rostafehrian... it makes sense given at that moment he was
totally dependent on others, for good or for ill.
jenlev
ps. hey, let me know when you start that signs, symbol and myths
thread?
07-09-2000 10:02 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by throswell
Also, at the end of Destiny I think Liz misunderstood what he
meant when he said "it's the 4 of us now". I think Liz felt he was
accepting Tess as one of the Pod Squad and it made her feel
excluded.
throswell
Why do you think Liz "misunderstood" his meaning? I would SO like to
believe this--that the statement excluded Tess. But reality forces
me to note that he looked straight at Tess when he said this.
Soooooo, I think that Liz was right to react to this. I think, in
fact, Max was referring to the 4 aliens.
As to what Max was going to tell Liz...I think that Max was going to
tell Liz that he loved her. I think that poised on the brink of an
FBI chase and not knowing how it would turn out...I think that Max
wanted Liz to know he loved her in case neither one made it through
the night.
Do I think he was going to tell her about the Tess/destiny thingie?
No. In fact we do not know exactly who told whom about it. If you
remember the van scene does not give us this information. We leave
the scene and return only after the information has been
conveyed---but by whom we do not know. Either one (since both knew)
could have done it.
Would Max have kept this info secret? Actually he has a long
documented history of keeping information from the others when he
thinks it might be hurtful--so yeah, I think he might have been
hesitant about telling Liz. Whether Liz confronted him with it in
the van, or whether he finally decided to tell her, we may never
know--but obviously one of the two happened.
And I am glad it did...I never liked him keeping this from Liz!
LSS
[Edited by LSS on 07-09-2000 at 01:52 PM]
07-09-2000 10:22 AM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by LSS
As to what Max was going to tell Liz...I think that Max was going
to tell Liz that he loved her. I think that poised on the brink of
an FBI chase and not knowing how it would turn out...I think that
Max wanted Liz to know he loved her in case neither one made it
through the night.
LSS
I agree. It is reminescent of the scene in Crazy when Michael says
to Maria "I just want you to know... if anything happens, to me..."
and the girl cuts him off (why did she do that? aaaahhhhhhhh) You
know that he's going to tell her how much she means to him, maybe
even use the "L" word.
07-09-2000 10:27 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
quote:
Originally posted by LSS
I agree. It is reminescent of the scene in Crazy when Michael
says to Maria "I just want you to know... if anything happens,
to me..." and the girl cuts him off (why did she do that?
aaaahhhhhhhh) You know that he's going to tell her how much she
means to him, maybe even use the "L" word.
You know, I can't EVER remember seeing a TV show that utilizes
"dramaticus interruptus" as much as Roswell!!!
LSS
07-09-2000 10:41 AM
throswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
I'm still thinking about Max's comment "It's the 4 of us
now." It just seems so out of character for M/M/Is to be so
accepting of her. What about all the mind games and manipulations
she did? It's just unbelievable that they would accept her, much
less trust her after all that. I don't care what the momogram said.
It still makes me mad that not one of them confronted Tess or told
her off. I almost feel like Max's statement "it's the 4 of us now"
was pretty cruel to say in front of Liz at that moment. It was just
driving home the point that she was a "liability", that they are
different, that they don't belong together. I don't know which line
I hate the most: It's the 4 of us now or It's our Destiny. Ugh!
Hopefully next season the mind games issue with Tess will be
addressed.
07-09-2000 11:43 AM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
lss: sorry, i'm a bit confused, when you quoted throswell but asked
me about the statement max made in destiny... did you mean to ask
throswell? just checking
anyway, i'm happy to throw my two (or 200) cents in...heh heh heh. i
do agree with you about the statement(s) made and almost made in
destiny... i think the 'four of us' were words that max might have
wanted to delete if he could of. although it did feel odd that liz
stepped back an left him... i can understand the potential for
charactor development, complexity, ambivalence and cliffhangers...
but it just doesn't sit right.
i also think that given what they had all been through that a
confrontation with tess will occur when the charactors have had a
chance to catch their breath. after all, their main focus has just
been to survive the last two episode's time span.
jenlev
07-09-2000 11:57 AM
throswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
lss: I think that I used the wrong word when I say Liz
misunderstood Max when he said it's the 4 of us now. I think my last
post above is more what I meant. I don't think she misunderstood as
much as she thought he was excluding her--which I don't think was
his intention. I stil think it's not the best thing he could have
said.
07-09-2000 11:58 AM
Sunnie*D
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000
MAX AND HEALING
I agree with that person before. He didn't heal Pierce because he
was already dead - Kyle wasn't, neither was Liz or Grandma - even
though he didn't heal her.
Max DOESN'T like playing God, he probably feels as if, well
something like, it's not his life to save. If that person was meant
to live, then he or she would live.
That's why he hesitated with Kyle.
Of course, his love for Liz was so overwhelming that he couldn't
hesitate, and he didn't care about breaking any of the rules.
Anything to save his Liz.
Then, of course,is the theory, that he innately knew that it really
wasn't her time to go yet.
Somehow, he innately knew that in THIS lifetime, things were
supposed to go differently - along with the Liz/Tess surrogate
theory - and those guys who shot her (who were arguing about needing
to kill her, but not until the money was on the table and ran away)
were interfering. Liz's getting shot was premeditated.
I'm getting way too into this.
ANyway, do you think that Grandma Claudia had anything shady to do
with anything?
~Sunnie
07-09-2000 12:50 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999
throswell I agree with you about Max saying, "its the
four of us now" I think the look on Liz's face showed that she felt
like a fifth wheel.
I have been saying this all along how is it they suddenly trust all
this anyway. Can someone explain to me how Max would be trusting
Nasedo/Mr Harding who KIDNAPPED the girl he loves? This does not
make sense to me at all and I certainly hope they will deal with it
right away! I know cliffhangers and all but come on, lets not lose
all logic. And the fact that Tess can make people see things, Isabel
knows if Max doesn't yet so ----I certainly hope these are the first
things they address or I will be very disappointed.
As for Max hesitating, I hate to say this but I thought it was more
for DRAMA and COMMERCIAL BREAK than anything else---but if he had
hesitated---it could be that although he pretty much instinctively
trusted LIZ, how can he trust Kyle who has been somewhat of an
adversary with this kind of secret. I am still not convinced that
Kyle is going to know what happened or that they will tell him---I
think the writers could use Max and Kyle for conflict--now he is
stealing my father, he already took my girlfriend----not because I
dislike Kyle==loved him and Max in BD together but the show needs
some conflict to keep it fresh--not everything can be hearts and
flowers so....
07-09-2000 02:06 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
jenlev: Sorry...I went back and changed it!!!
throswell: Looking at your last post, I see what you mean more now
when you suggest "misunderstood". And I've got to say, my heart
broke to see Liz' face. I really think that that was the proverbial
"straw" that caused her to leave--I think that convinced her that
she was that "fifth wheel" after all.
GraceKel: You know, that has bothered me to no end. NOONE has
questioned / challenged Max/Nesedo/Harding about his actions towards
Liz!!! I mean, even when Max and Nesedo / Max meet in the Hall of
Mirrors, even THEN Max does not really challenge him much...and we
never hear it mentioned again.
Over on the spoiler thread BEFORE the eppy aired, I argued that this
kidnapping might produce a rift between Max and Nesedo (and thus a
wedge between Max / Michael --at that time we "knew" that the "six"
would end up separated...and we were trying to figure out what that
would imply [who would wind up with whom]...and Max and Michael were
taking swings at each other by this time). It was a rather
spectacular miss-call on my part!!! But then who would have guessed
that such an action would really have so little impact on Max
(obviously not me)???
LSS
07-09-2000 04:33 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
lss: i'm less confused now. although at the same time i may be more
confused. the issue of nasedo taking liz will hopefully be addressed
in how the podsters respond to nasedo and the 'dread-momogram' next
season. although isabel's stance towards nasedo suggests that she is
already thinking of this issue?
so here is an over the top speculation on my part... is it possible
that part of what drove max to suggest nasedo take pierce's place
was to get him the heck out of roswell?
also, i am again struck by the feriocity of events leading up to the
end 'destiny'. i'm not sure when the right time for confronting
nasedo would have been in the last two episodes. the podsters
conditioning to live in secret may have precluded them (even
michael) from going toe to toe with nasedo, especially given the
priority of rescuing max, and then simply surviving?
i don't meant to simply excuse away what appears to be a gap in the
storytelling and plot development. liz, alex and maria also seem to
have chosen not to address the kidnapping head on. perhaps all the
charactors were portraying a response to outrageous and bizarre
circumstances that led them to shelve the issue for the time being?
i'm still perplexed, any other ideas anyone?
jenlev
07-09-2000 04:51 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
When Max saw Nasedo (as himself) for the first time it
was in the House of Mirrors... and there was tension, but it was
more about Max being there and Nasedo worrying about him, and Max
worrying about getting Liz out of there. Then the next time Max sees
Nasedo is when N and Michael are rescuing Max. Max does not see
Nasedo again until the cave. There really isn't an opportunity up
until that point for Max TO confront him...things are moving way too
fast.
Michael and Isabel each react to him differently when they meet him
for the first time... but neither questions him about the Liz thing.
I think they were just too busy trying to figure out how to save
Max. I really appreciated that Isabel did not give him her trust
right away! (good for her) Probably the fact that he had abducted
Liz played a role in her distrust. Michael was probably just too
happy or relieved that he had finally found Nasedo...and then they
were off to get Max. Once again, things were really moving much too
quickly.
re: the "just the four of us" - I don't think Max intentionally left
Liz out of this. I think he was referring to Nasedo leaving, and
leaving the four podlings to deal with whatever was coming. However
unintentional, though, it did impact Liz.
TTFN -
07-09-2000 05:16 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
hi there,
lorrilei1960: good thoughts in your post about the brevity of max's
actual contact with nasedo. it seems like the podsters and their
'human counterparts' (for lack of better words) would really just
have their collective eyes on the task of getting through the
day/night etc. should be interesting how this surfaces next season.
also, perhaps they saw nasedo as the key to rescuing max, especially
if they were feeling out of their depth and afraid. death and
capture was staring them right in the face after all. given this,
they might not have wanted to risk 'alienating' (sorry) nasedo?
jenlev
07-09-2000 05:16 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
There really isn't an opportunity up until that point for Max TO
confront him...things are moving way too fast...
Once again, things were really moving much too quickly.
TTFN -
Lorrilei1960
I think you are right--there is SO much action taking place that an
adequate response to the incident is lost (as is a credible response
by Maria to the pregnancy scare)!
Nevertheless--it WAS a glaring plothole, wasn't it? Especially since
everyone in WR is willing to "table" the incident and put full faith
into Nesedo/harding!!!
LSS
07-09-2000 05:31 PM
throswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Max could have said something to Nasado in the cave when
Nasado pointed at Liz and said "she doesn't belong here." Maybe Max
was so fixated on the orbs that he didn't want to deal with it then.
I thought another thing that was glossed over was in WR when Isabel
finds out that Tess used the mind games on Max. All Isabel said to
her was "that's what you did to Max" or something like that. I
wanted her to say why in the h*** did you do that to Max or who do
you think you are?? Isabel just let it drop. I WANT TESS CALLED ON
IT!
07-09-2000 05:48 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
quote:
Originally posted by LSS
GraceKel: You know, that has bothered me to no end. NO ONE has
questioned / challenged Max/Nesedo/Harding about his actions
towards Liz!!! I mean, even when Max and Nesedo / Max meet in the
Hall of Mirrors, even THEN Max does not really challenge him
much...and we never hear it mentioned again.
I agree, this ought to be a major issue between Max and Nasedo; but
I think jenlev is right that since the abduction there has been
nonstop combat. (Besides, maybe Max wants to think it over and
choose his time. Given what he's just been through, and the flood of
recent revelations, wouldn't it be natural for him to rest and to
confer with people he trusts before starting another difficult
confrontation?) Similarly, Tess's deceptions ought to be an issue
when time permits.
07-09-2000 08:36 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
bump (because we will start a new SF thread tomorrow)
07-09-2000 11:03 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Rosta,
Thanks for your encouragement about the signs. (I hope you have seen
plumeria's threads, another place lots of details are posted.) It's
sad about your lost recordings, I hope you can replace them somehow.
There used to be threads (maybe on the other board?) about episode
requests.
About screen caps, I don't know much about those. The episodes page
used to have pictorials, but last time I looked the pictures didn't
show.
I will watch for your thread on signs, symbols, and myth.
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