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Topic: The Science Fiction of Skin and Bones By LSS 10-02-2000, 07:14 PM Well, Season 2 is finally here and what a beginning! Some SF issues/elements that leap to our attention are: 1) CADMIUM X (sp?). Okay--we now know that the use of alien powers (at least of Max's species) leaves behind a residual element called Cadmium X. What we don't know is... a. What kind of power usage results in this? Just killing? What about healing? Would an examination reveal that Liz and Kyle now have Cadmium X in their systems? b. And what does Cadmium X "do"? Is it a killing agent? c. Can Cadmium X be trasferred in other ways? Since Harding/Pierce/Nesedo has been "diddling" the good congresswoman all summer, does she have it to? Does an exchange of bodily fluids convey the element? Intercourse? Kissing? 2) THE ROYAL FOUR. If we had any questions as to the identity of the podsters, it has now become clear. Harding refers to Max as "King" and to the podsters as the "royal four." What we have yet to find out is if there are more "subjects" other than Harding around. (BTW didn't you love the humor in this eppy? I liked Harding's crack about "I know an alien club." But he is right, you know. The number is growing by leaps and bounds.) 3) MIND WARP. Now we have a name to Tess' power and some sense of its limitation. Apparently 8 people for a few minutes is reaching the max (pardon the pun) of her limits. What did you think of Tess in this episode? What of her role now as instructor of powers (aka Michael)? 4) THE SKINS. We have now been introduced to the "bad aliens" though only through their shed skins. Odd. Are we to think of some reptilian race that shed their outer skins? Or, unlike Harding, do these aliens change shapes by shedding (and leaving behind) the skins of their old ones? And what about their vision? The depiction of their presence and observation of Michael and Harding is almost like some type of heat oriented image (minus the coloring). Any ideas as to its nature? Well folks--it's the beginning of Roswell the Second Season. What did you think? LSS By Palomino 10-02-2000, 07:21 PM LSS and All : WOW! That was great! Two things. 1. Cadmium X was not clearly IDed as being from the use of their powers. It was only a guess (but I will rewatch to make sure.) It might be that the evil aliens have it in their skeletons? Nasedo has been killing perhaps EA's mostly. Not all the bodies seem to have it. 2. They said that a body from a '72 murder had it, but they didn't say whose murder. The only one we know of in '72 was ... Sheila! Does this mean she was an EA? By plumeria 10-02-2000, 07:21 PM I saw on the general S&B thread someone complaining about that skin thing -- wouldn't somebody (humans, aliens, whatever) seen these shed skins before? But it seems to me almost that the skins were left behind on purpose -- for Michael to find, for Nacedo to find -- as a calling card, or a warning (that they were around) or something. As for the vision of the unknown enemy -- I was thinking the enemy was looking through some sort of lens maybe -- like those pentagon devices we saw at the end of Destiny. Or not -- maybe that's just how they see the world. I would doubt that Cadmium X would be transferred into the bones just from sex. It seems like a real transformation has to take place, with some force, like whenever handprints are left. I think it's likely that Liz and Kyle would exhibit then -- at least at the site of their healings. On the other hand, Pierce's ARM bones had the cadmium x, but it was his ribcage that got the brunt of Michael's force. OK, now I'm just rambling. I should stop now. Comments, anyone? By veracity 10-02-2000, 07:26 PM LSS - hi- it's my first time posting on your Sci-Fi thread. As to the "Skins" element. Maybe, in order to take human form, this race needs to shed their human skins in order to maintain the facade. I know that Nacedo apparently had no problem maintaining his shifted shape indefinately, or so it appeared. They also are apparently able to figure out who is an alien and who isn't. I'm curious as to why they or it chose to kill Nacedo and not Michael. Also, why follow Michael and not Max or Isabel. Also, I thought Tess said that Nacedo couldn't die. Why don't they all go out, get the healing stones and bring him back? Someone has got to explain this to me. Maybe next episode. Overall though, I was pleased with the Sci-Fi elements in this episode. Not perfect, but much improved from last season. Peace! Elizabeth By LSS 10-02-2000, 07:30 PM POSTSCRIPT: If using powers leaves a residual trace--then wouldn't Max's altering the structure of the skeletal remains leave a trace as well? (I know--picky, picky!) LSS By Qfanny 10-02-2000, 07:41 PM LSS: Oh my God! How I love this show! In regrads to your post and thread, I want to refer to my discussion with SF about the radiation around the Roswell area! We discussed the location of the Pod chamber and why it could be considered important to the nuclear testing done in the area back in the 1940s. The testing done back in the 1940s was refered to I think on three different times in the Skins and Bones episode. We hypothesized that the location of the pod chamber was hidden by the fall out radiation done in the area. I think we really had something there. I tell you, it's exciting to think that the theory was used by the writers. In regard to your question about the royal four. 2) THE ROYAL FOUR. If we had any questions as to the identity of the podsters, it has now become clear. Harding refers to Max as "King" and to the podsters as the "royal four." What we have yet to find out is if there are more "subjects" other than Harding around. (BTW didn't you love the humor in this eppy? Harding's crack about "I know an alien club." But he is right, you know. The number is growing by leaps and bounds.) It seems clear that the social structure is in fact, a monarchy! Just like I thought with your last thread. Let me reiterate what I posted. The Max/Tess allaince is a political one. Their former selves were engage in marriage as a peace treaty. That being so, and the fact we seemed to have two shapeshifter running around led me to believe that each side (good and bad) had different factions: [U]Good aliens[/U] Pro-destiny: For the "peace treaty" Harding's group Anti-destiny: For Mi/Is coupling, TicTac's group [U]Evil aliens[/U] Pro-destiny: For Max/Tess: Tess's group Anti-destiny: For human/podster couplings, Pierces group. I have been itching my head on the possiblity that Harding is in fact an evil alien Pro-destiny. This seems to make a lot of sense to me. Would it answer the question you posed long ago on the orbs? If he is an evil alien then why would he advise Max not to use the orbs? Maybe because he was hired just to protect the podsters, and nothing more. It would explain why he has not been forth coming with information about the podsters past and explain why he was hired. Is it just me, or am I the only one that sees his hiring to be logical? Harding as a "gun for hire" makes a lot of sense. He would know exactly how the evil aliens operate. Why does he leave the podsters in the dark if he was a good alien? Max refers to this in the Skin and Bones episode. I definately came away with the thought that I was right about Max's people working in a monarchy political society. Max himself told Nasedo that he wasn't a king. Camdem X seems to be the product of alien powers. I would like to know if Liz and Kyle carry the element. It seems that they would. The only thing that bugged me about the new episode is its speed. Thank God I watched the first season. I think a new viewer may have been lost on all the points they brought out. I am glad to see that Tess has her limits. Liz seeing visions when Max touched her led me to believe that Max has control over what she sees. I felt like Max was trying to show her a different outcome and forcing her to remember the past. I do not like they way Liz has pulled herself away from Max. But it is fun to see Max grovel just a bit. As far as Destiny goes, it evens seems Mi/I are not following along its lines, and that resistance to Destiny (predetermined coupling) is abundant. This raises the whole free will issue again. Max is certainly exhibiting his free will. Well, I'm going to go watch the eppy again. Look forward to some more intelligent posts on Skin and Bones! By LSS 10-02-2000, 07:43 PM quote:Originally posted by plumeria: I saw on the general S&B thread someone complaining about that skin thing -- wouldn't somebody (humans, aliens, whatever) seen these shed skins before? But it seems to me almost that the skins were left behind on purpose -- for Michael to find, for Nacedo to find -- as a calling card, or a warning (that they were around) or something. You may have something here. In each case we only have a partial skin. And you are right in thinking that their placement is suspicious (right outside Harding's car door). But as to why they haven't been reported--it could be explained by simply: 1) low population density (there haven't been a lot of skins around) 2) little shedding activity (I mean we don't know WHY the things shed yet--changing forms? molting? growth stages?) 3) or simply the fact that people HAVE found them but when the skins are picked up the "evidence" disintegrates. I'm sure we'll find more about these elusive "skin shedders" as time goes on! LSS By CharlieGirl 10-02-2000, 07:46 PM Howdy folks, I've been lurking on these SciFi threads since April and I just love them. I have several questions. The coroner said, "Bone doesn't melt". I did not know that. What happens during cremation? Nacedo was doing some risky business by shapeshifting in the restroom of the Crashdown. When Tess was doing the Mind Warp (I can only think of Rocky Horror when I say that) how was she able to know what to put in the minds of the scientists and Rep. Whitiker? She hadn't been inside the facility....or had she? I was surprized that Rep. Whitiker did not know what carbon dating meant. Charlie By LSS 10-02-2000, 07:51 PM quote:Originally posted by veracity: LSS - hi- it's my first time posting on your Sci-Fi thread. As to the "Skins" element.... They also are apparently able to figure out who is an alien and who isn't. I'm curious as to why they or it chose to kill Nacedo and not Michael. Also, why follow Michael and not Max or Isabel. Also, I thought Tess said that Nacedo couldn't die. Why don't they all go out, get the healing stones and bring him back? Someone has got to explain this to me. Maybe next episode. Overall though, I was pleased with the Sci-Fi elements in this episode. Not perfect, but much improved from last season. Peace! Elizabeth Hi Veracity! Welcome to the SF threads! You have brought up some excellent points. Yes, if we assume that those oddly shot POV are from the skins it does appear that the identities of Harding and Michael are not "secret." Good point. As for Harding's "death" -- again, you are right on target (both in your observation and [I would guess] in your speculation about revelations in future episodes). Great work! LSS By iamanalien 10-02-2000, 07:55 PM Three things about the Sci-Fi Ok, I watched this ep with a certain person who shall remain nameless *coughs* and he ruined it by pointing out all the errors in the sci-fi-ness of this eppy, most of which I knew but didn't care about, so now I must share... 1) The detector they used on the bones, I can't remember what he called it, would've destroyed Max (alien or not) had he really stepped in one when it went off, because what it does is kill anything with "living" atoms, which usually aren't present in skeletons. 2) Human bones are not good specimens to use in carbon-14 dating because they are made up mostly of calcium and magnesium, and little if any carbon. Besides which, you can't carbon-date anything less than 100 years old, and you wouldn't be able to give a specific (to the year even) date of death/ beginning of decay, rather a ballpark figure of say give or take a hundred years. And to answer someone's question, the bones DID indeed belong to Pierce, but Max (as mentioned later) thought he'd be clever and alter their age [need i mention that that's impossible? ] 3)Well, I can't remember the third thing, but give me sometime and another viewing of the eppy and I will. Also, I was shocked to learn that Miss I-Am-An-Alien-Expert Whitaker didn't know what carbon dating was (can we say sophmore biology class?) Let me make one thing clear, I am in NO way saying that I did not enjoy the eppy, in fact I liked it very much, but I think that if they were going to opt for sci-fi over romance that they should've at least gotten it right for the geeks of the world... *takes a breath* ~*Jules*~ By FordOnBuffy44 10-02-2000, 08:04 PM This is a really interesting thread, I've lurked through them for a while but never posted on one and while this is not one of the main topics mentioned I had to bring it up. -Okay, if Nasedo was - as he said - "diddling" the Congresswoman, who is to our knowledge right now human, it means that the aliens can have sex with humans. Now, of course we're not sure what she is at all (I have refrained from the spoiler board - I know nothing!) and something very well could have happened to her, but I just thought I'd bring it up for discussion. The thought just came to me and I thought I would post. Feel free to shoot it down or discuss it however you want. By LSS 10-02-2000, 08:12 PM quote:Originally posted by Qfanny: Liz seeing visions when Max touched her led me to believe that Max has control over what she sees. I felt like Max was trying to show her a different outcome and forcing her to remember the past. You know, I don't think I agree with you on this one Qfanny. I thought that Max seemed unaware that Liz was having those flashes (like both of them were unaware before when they had them). Actually, I thought the pathos of that scene was heartbreaking. She's getting the flashes...he says "what?" because he senses something (but is not sure what) and she replies "nothing." And of course the "nothing" is nothing more than some of the most tender moments in Season 1. It almost broke my dreamer's heart!!! LSS By KLS 10-02-2000, 08:17 PM LSS… excellent observations, per usual. Wasn’t able to post this reply right away, so may be obsolete by now… Overall, I thought it was a good first episode. The show is a little more dark than last season, but I think that’s a good thing. 1a. Seems to me Kyle and Liz would definitely have Cadmium X in their systems. 1b. Was wondering the same thing. Maybe it’s the residual effect of a kind of fusion… since these aliens can change molecular structure. Press an alien hand against a chest with intent to kill… and hello… a person’s insides (and all those lovely molecules) are melded toast. 1c. Good question. 2. Will be interesting to see what other “royals” or such arrive on the scene. 3. Tess’ role in this episode seemed a natural progression to me although a little hasty, considering her single minded obsession of last session. However, Michael practicing with her seemed logical enough… since, of the podsquad, her character is the most connected with their alien background. Not too impressed with the term Mind Warp though… think the writers could have come up with something a little more original than that. 4. Like you said, I’m thinking those Skins have to shed to shape shift. Good first show for the new season. Most of the characters were pretty true to form. Except for Maria, who generally shows a little more backbone. And, I think maybe there was a little too much leather for this time of year. Question… We know the skins have to been one of the new characters just introduced since there were no epidermal calling cards left last season. Who do you think it is? The Sheriff’s new over zealous deputy? The congresswoman (who has way too much power for a junior congresswoman)? Or, the new waitress at the Crashdown. By the way… Will miss Nasedo… even though he was a homicidal maniac, he did provide some razor-sharp wit. Looking forward to an excellent sophomore season. KLS By LSS 10-02-2000, 08:18 PM quote:Originally posted by FordOnBuffy44: -Okay, if Nasedo was - as he said - "diddling" the Congresswoman, who is to our knowledge right now human, it means that the aliens can have sex with humans. Hi FordOnBuffy! Welcome to the SF threads as a poster. And VERY WELL DONE. IF the good congresswoman is not an alien and IF Harding was not into empty macho bragging, then YES it would appear that alien/human sexual relations are possible (and, ahem--how much MORE possible with hybrids?). So now we know--if they do "do it" they WON'T explode!!! Nice catch! LSS By San Luis Valley 10-02-2000, 08:20 PM quote:Originally posted by LSS: POSTSCRIPT: If using powers leaves a residual trace--then wouldn't Max's altering the structure of the skeletal remains leave a trace as well? (I know--picky, picky!) LSS It's the killing power Michael and Nasedo use to fry people's innards that leaves the trace element. Max was using his manipulation of molecules power to eliminate the Cadium X and age the bones...I dunno, works for me. I did find the explanation of carbon dating rather patronizing, tho' By FordOnBuffy44 10-02-2000, 08:23 PM Thanks for the welcome LSS! I know you have all probably discussed this before, but I was just thinking about how much the writers probably don't even put as much thought into the sci-fi aspects of the show as you all do. The observations some of you make could open up such huge storylines and pathways that the writers probably won't even dive into (not that I'm knocking the writers! I love this show). Anyway, I'll leave this thread for just discussion of the sci-fi, but I just wanted to compliment you all on these incredibly well-thought out posts. They're really enjoyable to read - I only wish the writers were reading them too. Who knows...maybe they are...we can only hope. By Alienwatcher 10-02-2000, 08:24 PM Qfanny - I have also asserted in past posts that the Max/Tess union was that of an arranged marriage to bring peace between two warring races. Now it seems even more likely. If it is true - Does Tess know that she really is another alien race? Maybe that's why Nacedo keeps saying its their destiny to be together so that when they return to their home planet it will still be a factor in creating peace. If Max dumps her for Liz, it might add fuel to the conflict. I also like the theory that Nacedo is a mercenary. Perhaps he is from a completely different race than the pod squad and their race is actually quite similar to humans and that is why they chose to "recreate" them in human form. Maybe Nacedo knows very little and cares even less about the conflict on the home planet. He is simply here to do a job he is being paid for. Also about Nacedo not dying. Perhaps he could not die from any technology that earth has. But he was killed by the evil aliens who probably have much more advance weapons/powers. And if being in that machine didn't kill Max, then shouldn't his presence have at least change or shown up on the data retreived? By KLS 10-02-2000, 08:24 PM FordOnBuffy & LSS… now that’s interesting! Sex with an alien without exploding! And Nasedo was totally alien as far as we know. Whereas the members of the pod squad (according to Nasedo in Season 1) are hybrids, and specifically, humans that are thousands of years evolved ahead of time. Guess the sex thing is okay. But what about offspring? Wonder what we could expect there? KLS By KLS 10-02-2000, 08:29 PM By the way… have been lurking for quite a while on this board… and specifically this topic. Have enjoyed following the discussions. KLS By ROSWELLMOM 10-02-2000, 08:31 PM I was hoping you would have already started this thread LSS. You did not disappoint! Okay, regarding Cadimum X - I think it is a definite possiblity that Liz and Kyle have this in their system and no I don't think that it can be transferred by body fluids. Max said that it is a bi-product of when they use their powers. Royal Four - The usage of this phrase leads me to believe that Max, Iz, Michael and Tess are who the Momogram said they were. I am glad to see that they are not following their "pre-ordained destinies". It is obvious that I/M has not become anything more than the brother and sister that they have always thought of as eachother. And Max is still definitely pursuing Liz and has no interest in Tess. They still obviously has some kind of connection to each (M/L) because when he touches her arm at the end she sees flashes of their past together. Mind wrap - I thought the exact same thing, now we have a name for it. It is interesting that Tess does have limits. As much as I don't care for Tess it does appear that she is becoming apart of M/I/M. I mean without her Max would not have been able to get into the lab to change those bones and she is helping Michael hone his powers. Skins - It was kind of eerie the way Harding said "The Skins". Obviously they can appear invisible to the human eye. When they were watching Michael he turned around but didn't see anything. But, he sensed something. Did he sense "the evil within"??? It does appear that the skin is being shed, like a reptile. I'm not quite sure what to make of it though. Overall I was very pleased with the first episode. Next week's teasers looked even better! Well that's all for now. I'm looking forward to see what the rest of ya'll think! By LSS 10-02-2000, 08:37 PM quote:Originally posted by iamanalien: [B]Three things about the Sci-Fi Ok, I watched this ep with a certain person who shall remain nameless *coughs* and he ruined it by pointing out all the errors in the sci-fi-ness of this eppy, most of which I knew but didn't care about, so now I must share... 1) The detector they used on the bones, I can't remember what he called it, would've destroyed Max (alien or not) had he really stepped in one when it went off, because what it does is kill anything with "living" atoms, which usually aren't present in skeletons. I wondered about that. Even as a non-scientist that whole scene seemed incredulous. Damn. If your source is right, that is a really stupid mistake to make unless we are going to find something out about our hybrids' bodies that we don't know yet. quote: 2) Human bones are not good specimens to use in carbon-14 dating because they are made up mostly of calcium and magnesium, and little if any carbon. Besides which, you can't carbon-date anything less than 100 years old, and you wouldn't be able to give a specific (to the year even) date of death/ beginning of decay, rather a ballpark figure of say give or take a hundred years. Yeah--I did catch that one. Oh well. [QUOPTE]3)Well, I can't remember the third thing, but give me sometime and another viewing of the eppy and I will. Also, I was shocked to learn that Miss I-Am-An-Alien-Expert Whitaker didn't know what carbon dating was (can we say sophmore biology class?)[/QUOTE] Yeah--but it is a time tested vehicle for writer's to "explain" to the audience some technical point. But you are right. quote:Let me make one thing clear, I am in NO way saying that I did not enjoy the eppy, in fact I liked it very much, but I think that if they were going to opt for sci-fi over romance that they should've at least gotten it right for the geeks of the world... You are right. Unless those "geeks" have a soft spot for romance (and thus a blind eye to improbabilities), the problems you note are really unfortunate. LSS By Kath7 10-02-2000, 08:42 PM Just some random commentary: 1) I think it makes perfect sense that there has been no skin left around before...Nasedo said in White Room that he had been looking for the M/M/I for a long time - if their own protector couldn't find them a few miles from where he knew they crashed - it seems likely that the villains would be just as dumb!LOL Likely it was the activation of the orbs in Destiny that brought the baddies to town... 2) I agree that Maria was acting really weird - did anyone else notice that she was talking to Max like LIZ didn't deserve HIM???? Isn't she supposed to be LIZ's best friend...it was peculiar... (I know this doesn't belong on the Sci-fi thread - but someone brought it up so...) 3)Well, interesting that it is a monarchy and that Max IS a king...the Royal Four - bah! I wanted to puke...Royal Three I could have accepted, but jeez! 4) Did anyone figure out how Nasedo died???Max couldn't heal him, but was it because he was already dead...it was odd... 5) If I were Nasedo, I would keep Pierce's form - I know he was evil, but that man is beautiful...LOL I love this thread - I wish I had kept caught up on it during the summer... By tanchel 10-02-2000, 08:53 PM So happy Season 2 has begun!!! OK, on to the scifi.... I agree with the Liz & Kyle and Cadmium X residue theory. It leaves interesting possibilities out there for some eventual White Room re-enactments, only with our humans as the guinea pigs this time. Granted, the Special Unit has been disbanded, but with Liz and Kyle running around as the only human proof of alien existence, they could become a hot commodity in the future. Royal Four: The only person who was invested in this idea was Nacedo. Even Michael brushes that aside for his soldier persona. THAT'S the idea most of them seem to be embracing--their military (for lack of a better word) roles. Isabel is certainly much more gung-ho than she was in the first season. I started to think of the leather as battle gear! Love the mind warp thing in a *snicker* you've got to be kidding me way. Tess is certainly much less pushy than she was originally, but very much determined to prove her worth to Max. I like her much better now. The whole reptilian Skins motif smacks of Evil in Paradise mythology, and we have a rather tacky tendency to write aliens using this metaphor. Remember "V"? (Oh, hey, didn't they literally shed their skin?) And X Files adopted it for the colonizing aliens. And there are countless other scifi shows using a similar idea, I'm sure. It's a tried and true imagery for depicting the Other. Just my initial thoughts. I'll have to rewatch the episode. but I thought it was a fabulous start to the new season! By LSS 10-02-2000, 08:53 PM Qfanny: On the royals--I was wondering what you might think of the possibility of Michael challenging Max for leadership. I really thought that that might happen at the end of Season 1 (remember the fights) but it didn't. In this episode, however, not only do we have Michael vocalizing his displeasure with Max's style of leadership...but we have Nesedo/Pierce criticizing Michael on the phone for acting without Max's permission. (At one time last season, Rosta noted that Michael was ripe for the "dark side".) BTW--I find you theory on radiation/Roswell intriguing. There is definitly something going on with all those references in this episode. LSS By KLS 10-02-2000, 08:57 PM Guess Nasedo could have always been killed, just not by conventional “earth” methods. He certainly showed fear for his own safety when he realized the Skins were about (something he never did before). And, the star-like burn on his chest suggested a death that would stick (as opposed to a gun-shot wound in Season 1). KLS By Qfanny 10-02-2000, 08:58 PM quote:Originally posted by LSS: You know, I don't think I agree with you on this one Qfanny. I thought that Max seemed unaware that Liz was having those flashes (like both of them were unaware before when they had them). Actually, I thought the pathos of that scene was heartbreaking. She's getting the flashes...he says "what?" because he senses something (but is not sure what) and she replies "nothing." And of course the "nothing" is nothing more than some of the most tender moments in Season 1. It almost broke my dreamer's heart!!! LSS Oh I know what you mean about breaking the dreamers heart! But I think what you refer to here is intent. My post maybe have been writen too hastily. I don't think Max intended to show her something in particular. But I still maintain that he controled the vision she received. He may not know exactly what she saw, but he did seem to knows something happened. He touched her, instinctively, but didn't know what the outcome would have been. Maybe that's why he said what. I like seeing Max woo Liz! I just wish Liz wasn't acting so detached. Anyway, speaking of instincts, did you hear the references to how they all had the instinct to hide themselves???? And the reference Max makes to DNA and alien DNA in the opening. I was sort of hoping that "human genentic material" could be something else than DNA. I thought that the sexual relationship between Pierce (aka Nasedo) and Whitaker was good news for Max and Liz. She would not explode as previously hinted. I also laughed out loud when Michael say, "Good people skills" when on the phone with Nasedo/Harding/Pierce. Isn't that just peachy? We saw that Harding was horrible at people skills long ago! Loving it By LSS 10-02-2000, 09:14 PM quote:Anyway, speaking of instincts, did you hear the references to how they all had the instinct to hide themselves???? Yes. That was very interesting. It presupposes a hostile environment. I would really like some clues as to what Max's species thinks of humankind. Are the skins the only ones viewed as enemies? Or do Max's people take a dim view of humans as well? But if that is the case, then why earth and why the human form. Of course they could like our form and our planet but not like us I guess. LSS P.S. Scroll above for another note addressed to you Qfanny. By Qfanny 10-02-2000, 09:32 PM quote:Originally posted by Alienwatcher: Qfanny - I have also asserted in past posts that the Max/Tess union was that of an arranged marriage to bring peace between two warring races. Now it seems even more likely. If it is true - Does Tess know that she really is another alien race? Maybe that's why Nacedo keeps saying its their destiny to be together so that when they return to their home planet it will still be a factor in creating peace. If Max dumps her for Liz, it might add fuel to the conflict. I also like the theory that Nacedo is a mercenary. Perhaps he is from a completely different race than the pod squad and their race is actually quite similar to humans and that is why they chose to "recreate" them in human form. Maybe Nacedo knows very little and cares even less about the conflict on the home planet. He is simply here to do a job he is being paid for. Also about Nacedo not dying. Perhaps he could not die from any technology that earth has. But he was killed by the evil aliens who probably have much more advance weapons/powers. And if being in that machine didn't kill Max, then shouldn't his presence have at least change or shown up on the data retreived? Alienwatcher: I'm glad to see that I'm not the only one that thinks that M/T is the result of a political union. And I do think that Harding is a mercanary of sorts too. (forgive me for my misspellings, I am dyslexic.) But anyway, Harding is not a fun loving person. I thought I very appropriate that Michael refered to Harding's peoples skills as "very good". In fact, I was LOL on that one! I will have to watch S&B tomorrow again! I thought so much was told to us, I cannot comment on everything in one moment. LSS, your thread is already on page 2. I hope that's a good sign to Roswell's popularity. (or our devotion!) By Kaylan 10-02-2000, 09:33 PM Hi I'm mostly a lurker but I wanted to see if anyone else noticed this... When Michael was splitting rocks, did you notice that he seemed to use his mind. In all other eps the pod squad always seemed to point out their hand and then a glow would happen. So I guess now they're a little more subtle Anyway I was just rewatching the ep and I was wondering what other changes to they're powers their gonna bring. Oh and is that green thing max's new power? did anyone else notice max raising his hand (it looked like in front of Isabel) and there was like a green transparent screen or something. I think it was in next weeks previews Kaylan Oh and I don't think max gave liz a flash on purpose. Which also raises the question of why she's still having flashes and now it's just with a touch. Maybe its an unseen force telling them that they are "meant to be" By ROStaFEHRian 10-02-2000, 09:38 PM Hello Everyone! I really liked this episode. I was so excited. Jason Behr gave us a Max going through all phases of the emotional spectrum. Brilliant. The scene in the jail cell between Michael and Valenti is a treasure. Excellent points everyone is making about the science issues and 'bloopers'. I really have to look up cadmium and review radiation and perhaps kick off the new board Signs and Symbols thread with these topicst when I have time (altho' I suspect, by then, others will have done a better job explaining). I tend to think there should be more forthcoming on electromagnetism/background cosmic/ionizing radiation. I have to admit this whole episode was so curiously off-kilter, that I thought it was intentionally so. Something vewy, vewy scwewy is going on. Very dark, in color and feel in some parts, and very 'sunny' in others. I began to have this feeling from the moment I saw the inflatable green alien doll on the podium table in the House. Why? And during a 'televised' hearing? A Roswell version of Sam Donaldson would have his toupee in a twist about aliens, calling this a crisis in the White House... The congresswoman did not ring true. Maria was..well..strange. Maria was quite a bit different than expected. Maria did not have the attitude of someone whose best friend AND 'boyfriend' both left her for the summer. Even if she did bond with Max. The whole CNN watching scene had a very surreal quality to it. Not quite consistent with a group of teens who have been through what they have. Note, Max cannot heal Edsedo. Did anyonw wonder why Max would be running shirtless down the street? Even fightback!Max, in the current climate in Roswell, would out shoes on. In the promo trailer he enters the diner and the card-rack just inside the door is empty. Why should it be empty? Bizarre. Is Max dreaming? Hallucinating? Is he far worse than we,or even his parents, think? Or is this Isabel's nightmare? QFANNY, I like your references, and previous posts, about radiation and that time in our history in the US. It was also a time for post-WW2 smugggling of ex-Nazi scientists (genetic experimentation?) , the nuclear and space race soon after, and general cold-war paranoia. Source material for the story line could be tremendous. Does anyone else notice that, even in some of the symbols, we are getting a tremendous amount of plant references and imagery? Even in the diner we are treated to a scene of aliens 'spraying' a a cactus with twining 'feet'.??? I still tend to believe that the original royals did not survive, except perhaps Tess? I think Max, Michael, and Iz are different. I think they may have received eau-de-essence 'second hand'. Indeed, I think that they are probably very different from each other, although their perception of their relationship is really all that matters. KLS, your remarks about the skins and other references to the leather made me think of Iz and her fondness for 'skins' The clothing was very strange in this episode. Another reason this episode felt dreamlike/nightmarish. Of course, nothing nightmarish about that Liz/Max scene at the end. Beautifully done. I am very, very anxious to see which way this goes.Will someone wake up from this? I really need to re-watch a few more times which may lead to modification of some of my reactions reactions. ROSta Max used my favorite expression 'hide in plain sight'! By Qfanny 10-02-2000, 09:39 PM Kaylan! Hi, Qfanny here. I don't think Max gave Liz the flash on purpose either, but I think that he did want her to see something or remember something. That was his frame of mind at the time. I think that he subconsciously controlled the vision. It was so specific to what he was saying... Either that or what he said put Liz in the right frame of mind and she pulled the memory herself. By Kaylan 10-02-2000, 09:40 PM Oh and the evil alien that was watching michael and nasedo kind of reminded me of that movie with arnold swarznegger.Ugh what's it called?? not terminator but... I don't know I can't think of the name of it now but they were in the jungle and the "alien" ate all of the blood and I think the skin from the humans. His vision was also kind of crazy like he saw body heat. Oh and that alien had the power to be invisable too. Well not really invisable but it was sort of like a chameleon. Please someone post the name of that movie. It's driving me CRAZY!! Kaylan By EL 10-02-2000, 09:55 PM I'll admit it point-blank if you haven't read my complaints elsewhere on the forum - the new episode broke my heart, even though I prepared myself for it. The cheesy and uncomfortable elements were on full throttle. Now, for a meatier complaint: In "Destiny", Max discovers Nacedo doesn't know the exact reason they're on Earth, and he can only discover it under the original 'pod squad's' direction as they activate the communicators. But nowhere in the Mom-o-gram does it mention Max being a king, only that he was a leader of some sort. Where exactly did this entire 'royalty' gambit originate from, and if Nacedo (supposedly in the dark about their true purpose, and only there to act as a guardian and protector) knew about it beforehand, why didn't he mention it? Roswell is in dire need of addressing all the gaps in the plotlines, which are becoming more and more noticeable as the show's sci-fi side is developed. And when exactly was it discussed that the aliens' home planet was ruled by a monarchy? When was the home planet ever discussed at all? I wanted Roswell to develop its sci-fi side (if it was going to) in a way that would fully support the style it created in its first season. That's probably out the window now (crappy WB executives), so I'll also stick in a demand for sci-fi that at least makes some modicum of sense. By BehrAll 10-02-2000, 09:56 PM HI! I brought this up on another thread, and then figured maybe someone here could enlighten me ... Were we given a reason why they didn't bother checking the dental records of the skeleton ... which of course would come back as Pierce's? Isn't that standard with inidentified corpses? Or was the skull somehow damaged and I missed it? BTW, as usual, great points above! If I had more time I'd love to debate a few myself. Maybe later. Oh! Quick thought here: for such an eager little deputy who caused so much trouble with his deductive acumen, I was kind of surprised he was able to get any prints at all off the knife after the way he disturbed the evidence -- running his (admittedly gloved, but still) fingers up it? Okay, okay, I know, there were probably prints on the blades inside, but if I were Valenti I'd have gotten on the little twerps case for that one! By CharlieGirl 10-02-2000, 10:03 PM Howdy Kaylan, Was the movie "Predator"? Charlie quote:Originally posted by Kaylan: Oh and the evil alien that was watching michael and nasedo kind of reminded me of that movie with arnold swarznegger.Ugh what's it called?? not terminator but... I don't know I can't think of the name of it now but they were in the jungle and the "alien" ate all of the blood and I think the skin from the humans. His vision was also kind of crazy like he saw body heat. Oh and that alien had the power to be invisable too. Well not really invisable but it was sort of like a chameleon. Please someone post the name of that movie. It's driving me CRAZY!! Kaylan By throswell 10-02-2000, 10: 10 PM quote:Originally posted by Kath7: .......... 2) I agree that Maria was acting really weird - did anyone else notice that she was talking to Max like LIZ didn't deserve HIM???? Isn't she supposed to be LIZ's best friend...it was peculiar... (I know this doesn't belong on the Sci-fi thread - but someone brought it up so...) I agree with you on this. By throswell 10-02-2000, 10:15 PM quote:Originally posted by Qfanny: Kaylan! Hi, Qfanny here. I don't think Max gave Liz the flash on purpose either, but I think that he did want her to see something or remember something. That was his frame of mind at the time. I think that he subconsciously controlled the vision. It was so specific to what he was saying... Either that or what he said put Liz in the right frame of mind and she pulled the memory herself. The only reason I think Max might have given Liz the flash is because when she says "nothing" I think he saw in her eyes that she did see the flashes, because after she left he had a little smile on his face. like he knew he was getting to her. By Kaylan 10-02-2000, 10:16 PM YES!! That it CharlieGirl, the name of the movie was Predator. Aahh I can finally go to sleep now. thanks Kaylan By Lorrilei1960 10-02-2000, 10:45 PM I really enjoyed tonights eppy... despite a few scientific bloopers. Here's my thoughts on a few things. re Cadmium X .... perhaps it is a by-product of specific types of radiation generated by the aliens in "blast" mode, or by the killer silver iron-on... not by the molecular rearranging which I had always assumed was used in the healing process (dissolve the bullet and pull together the torn by rearranging molecules). re the skins ... perhaps a by-product of the EA who have just now made it to Roswell... and they are descendants of a reptilian species who, like a chameleon, can camoflage themselves by disappearing or shapeshifting, but who also shed periodically... like in the summer. re new characters - One or more is definitely an evil alien... we just know there has to be a plant... the question is, which one? My first vote is for Courtney, who will try to lure Michael to the dark side. My second pick is the Deputy... way too bumbling and eager to be real. He may have been replaced ala Pierce at some point by an EA. I'm not so sure about the Congresswoman... surely she would have figured out Nasedo/Pierce if she was an EA. And I think the geologist may just be what he claims... unless he's a good guy. (I'm staying spoiler free, so I may be totally wrong, but I love trying to figure this stuff out... like solving a "who done it?" ) re "the royal four" - I do think this was a bit over played... perhaps on purpose by Nasedo. He did seem to have an agenda, mercenary or not! He was also busy pushing Tess on Max... hmmmmm .... part of the hidden agenda??? As a whole, I was very pleased. I can't wait until next week!!! By shapeshifter 10-02-2000, 10:49 PM Qfanny, I think it's the word "control" that makes us all cringy in your description of Max touching Liz and giving her flashes. We generally associate it with people who are very un-Maxlike. But I can't think of a better word at the moment. I think your adding the word "subconsiously" is about as close as we can get to describing it. So, then, how about the Congresswoman as an unwed mother whose baby's father has apparently skipped town without a trace? Fav line: "A pacifist for a king?" My daughter (who is not a fan) commented that "So, they can afford better script writers this season." Of course we all loved the freshness of the rough spots in season one. Oh, and she also says that carbon dating can only be accurate to within 50 years--that they would never pinpoint a date like 1957. And so it's not "Where's Liz?" It's "Where's Kyle?" By Barrybud 10-02-2000, 10:50 PM Hi SFers, I didn't see a comment on this so I shall toss it out there. Did you notice when M/T/I/Mi we talking in at Mi apartment. Next to Max was a for pane window in the Apt door that was not there last season. Also it was yellow. Cut to next scene where there are 4 bright blue/white lights at the crime scene for the skeleton. Does this support or negate the color scheme thoughts on season 1? Barry By Kate6058 10-02-2000, 11:49 PM First of all... hello everyone! It's great to be back... I really didn't post at all this summer, but I couldn't resist now that our Roswell is back. Hello to LSS and everyone else out there quote:Originally posted by LSS: You know, I don't think I agree with you on this one Qfanny. I thought that Max seemed unaware that Liz was having those flashes (like both of them were unaware before when they had them). Actually, I thought the pathos of that scene was heartbreaking. She's getting the flashes...he says "what?" because he senses something (but is not sure what) and she replies "nothing." And of course the "nothing" is nothing more than some of the most tender moments in Season 1. It almost broke my dreamer's heart!!! LSS This was the first thing I wanted to figure out as the episode ended. When I watched the scene the first time, up until Max asked, "What?," I was excited that he was sharing a vision with her and caught up in the moment... then he asked that and it sounded as if he had no idea why Liz was standing there smiling, and I was confused. So, I watched it a few more times, and now I think that he was purposely giving her the vision. If you think about it, it doesn't make sense that he would randomly touch her arm and they'd zoom in on it, and that he'd asked her right before that what she'd do if she could pretend things were normal. I think he is just becoming extremely frustrated with not being able to get through to her and seeing her so miserable that letting her feel all of that emotion again was what he thought would be best. When he asked "What?," I think he was just urging her to say something... to admit that she felt again. Liz has shut off all her emotions, but in those few seconds... well, you could certainly tell what that meant to her by the look on her face. And after trying to get her to talk, Max had a smile on his face... he was sucessful. I know he doesn't doubt her feelings... he just needed to make her happy again, if only for a few moments. Liz said something about never being able to be normal again... it's going to hit her sooner or later (hopefully sooner!) that she gave up normal a year ago, only then she didn't have to deal with it directly. It's almost as if the fans are in the same situation as Liz herself... we heard about the destiny for months before the finale, then it finally appeared in an episode for five minutes, and we were under the impression that we'd been dealing with it. But now season two is here and I know that it's totally different than how I thought it would be, in terms of the destiny being a reality and major background for the story. Liz left normal a long time ago... whether or not she has Cadmium-X in her bones or was physically altered by Max, she still left (Now I'm reminiscing back to Leaving Normal. "Leaving Normal" it's all so obviously connected) It's just a matter of time before Liz gets her strength back. I am also extremely curious about Nasedo's death. What was that black thing on his chest? I know we have no answers to this now, but I hope we get a solid one sometime soon. By clarinetkate 10-02-2000, 11:54 PM Hi Guys, Wow, we are quickly on page two, I'm glad I didn't wait for tomorrow to come in!! Ok, in regards to the CadmiumX thing.. I am confused as to why an isotope of an element we have here on earth couldn't be replicated/created on earth. Now maybe I jsut don't know enough about isotopes of stange elements, but... can anyone explain, is it too heavy or too unstable or what! Ok, and how did they know to look for CadmiumX in the first place on the first body they found? Granted I'm sure they would want to perform every test they could on a body they found dead from a silver handprint, but from the looks of that machine it doesn't seem to have been around in the seventies..What would have made them retest? Were they instructed as to what to look for? It seemed like Whitaker was AWFULLY up to speed on CadmiumX (and yet curiously idiotic on carbon dating, which I remembered right away but actually had to say, wait what was an isotope again??). I wondered if someone who KNEW that the cadmiun would be there instructed them to look for it.. Ok, and the cadmiumX thing, is that what the silver handprint is? Is it in fact a cadmium print? Which brings up, then has it been left in the library (by Tess), the cliff (Max) the gas station (Maxedo). People seem to agree that it is left by the healing too, although to me the healing process and killing process seem to involve sort of different energies and perhaps the cadmium is a by product of the intense heat causing bone meltage. I don't believe Max put such intense heat into the healings, it was more like he was drawing something out of Liz than Michael's burst of white hot energy. And if the cadmiumX is related to the handprints, well, it didn't seem like Tess or Max or Maxcedo used any sort of great effort to put those handprints there. Is the cadmiumX the by product of any interraction or only ones with intesne transfer of energy... Ok, I actually have other things to talk about besides Cadmium, lol... So, people seem to think that Harding has been hired.. but it seemed to me that he immediately knew his place and showed great defrence to the young leader.. almost as if he had been conditioned for this job or something, I thought about racial conditioning, perhaps he is of a different race that is perhaps the loyal servants.. He seemed very much the loyal servant as opposed to the hired bodyguard... I intend on posting more about Whitaker, but I need to take a break from thinking for a minute or two, lol, my mind has been in overdrive since 9!!! --KATE By clarinetkate 10-03-2000, 12:45 AM OK, here yet again. I have way too much to say on this episode, lol! My analysis of Whitaker: I think she's an evil alien. There is way too much coincidence and strangeness surrounding her. First of all, why is a congresswoman so up on all this? She knew about Pierce before he got brought to trial it seems. Why is she so interested and knowledgable and so seemingly important (is it usual for a congresswoman to override the sheriff? Am I more out of touch politically than I thought?!) She seems awfully involved in all this.. and they've never mentioned any political involvemnet before in Roswell. The fact that she hires LIZ is a very bizarre coincidence I think. How did she get Liz's name in the first place? Is she a friend of the family that we've never heard about, doesn't seem likely. As far as we know, Liz has always had an interest in science (as shown again in this ep) but NOT in politics, has she ever said anything remotely political? Is she a member of the model congress and we just don't know it?! So, I think there must be another reason for the very convienient hiring of Liz Parker (who will now be referred to as "Parker" as if she were on a football team!! What's the deal with that!!?) When Tess was doing her mind warp (any other mindwarpers out there find that amusing, I was like, oh is that the name for her mojo with Isabel, oh damn, nope, she's doing a tessination, lol) it seemed to me that Whitaker was aware her mind was being toyed with. She couldn't see Max, but she seemed to know that something was going on. I think she could sense a mind warp and was looking for the seams in the vision, or she could somehow sense Max's prescence and was loking for him. Either way she definitely creeped me out there, I think she knows something is going on. People may argue that the fact that she was boinking Piercedo points to the fact that she's NOT an evil alien, but I think it points to her even more... She does know something isn't right with Pierce, she says so to Valenti himself. But, yet she acts with Pierce like she has no idea anything is out of the ordinary. I think she has known all along that this is Piercedo and that is why she struck up a relationship with him. This is Nasedo's first sexual experience I would assume, so he is not used to all this. And he didn't seem to know that he had given Liz flashes... I wonder if he gave HER flashes... and if she is an evil alien who's been in hiding for all these years, I'm sure she would know how to conceal the flashes she was giving him, all the while taking into acount the info he was giving her (hence how she knew to hire Liz!). And he WAS killed. Perhaps she was done usuing him for info, having gotten everything she needed from him? She certainly would be able to get close to him. All that and she just gave me the creeps, lol, very scientific Kate! I think she gave some mighty odd looks. I think she's an evil alien.. but even if she's not.. she knows something's going on and there is definitely more there than meets the eye. --KATE, who actually has MORE things to say about this ep, but wil give it a rest for tonight, lol By Ken McRee 10-03-2000, 03:22 AM I agree with those that say cadmium-X is a by-product of high-intensity ("set to kill") power only. The fact that Max can remove it means that it's not always left behind. Hot bones probably turn to powder instead of fusing. The Skins might be aliens that are naturally invisible or near-invisble (like from Predator) and grow skins -- which they can shed at will -- to mix with everyone else. The skins disintegrate completely (as shown) and probably very quickly, which is you don't see them lying around everywhere. Their odd vision may the result of trying to see when your eyes are invisible and don't reflect any light -- a classic sci-fi conundrum The MindWarp probably works more by suggestion than by inserting actual images. It may be very difficult to conjure up completely detailed images and then inject them in someone's head. The brain is very good at filling in blanks and seeing what it wants to see ("You don't see Max, everything is normal") My initial impression is that Max did not cause Liz to see the flashes on purpose. They're just so naturally meant for each other, it just happens. And just because Nasedo and the congresswoman didn't explode during sex doesn't mean that Max and Liz won't, because their connection is that much hotter. Of course, I can force myself to watch that wrenching scene over and over to be sure. As for "Nasedo can't die": as I mentioned in another thread, the problem with immortality is that you're only immortal until proven otherwise! (Ask most of the Greek pantheon in Xena.) So Nasedo could have just thought he was immortal and told Tess so; but more likely he just couldn't die by normal human means. He seemed to realize he was in deep kimchi when he found the skin. Lastly, the show's writers almost certainly don't read forums like this; or at least they shouldn't. The problem is that they could independently come up with the same idea that someone posts. That person might then claim they stole the idea and sue (or at least threaten to sue) -- sad but true. So the writers can never read these types of discussions, fan fiction, etc. //Ken By jenlev 10-03-2000, 03:31 AM hi there, perhaps max's inability to heal nasedo relfected his limitations and also nasedo's alien nature. it may also have reflected max's ambivalence about nasedo and the whole destiny issue? in addition to this; the other aliens would certainly have the means of actually killing a shapeshifter... otherwise they most likely would have no thread to implement agains the home planet when taking it over? perhaps the 'evil-aliens' shed skin when anxious? or perhaps when they come in contact with certain earth materials? intersting about the geologist checking out the area for a chemical plant... would that perhaps be the conglomerate run by the evil aliens as either part of their 'plot' and/or a way to raise money to run their plan on earth? i also cringed with the explanation of carbon dating.... but despite it's improbability i loved the idea of aging the bones to assist michael. heh heh heh i expect that the energy used in healing and in killing are on different places on the continuim so that the residue they leave would also be different? does nasedo's death open up the scene for the possible 2nd shapeshifter to appear? does it signal the potential for the return of riverdog? (mentor for hire) jenlev By Qfanny 10-03-2000, 03:58 AM Really quick on CandiumX: If it is a by product of alien powers, what about all the food Isabel nuked in season one! I assume the other podsters used this gift for culinery arts too. Would the nuked food also have traces of CandiumX? And with Michael as cook at the Crashdown, it could be possible that nearly everyone in Roswell has traces of CandiumX! What a thought to wake up too! By LSS 10-03-2000, 06:03 AM Well, if it is any consolation Qfanny, I woke up with Cadmium X on my mind this morning too!!! [BTW--interesting catch about the food--though I would think that perhaps the real person to worry might be the person who drank that coffee Izzy heated...I wonder if the human body can metabolize Cadmium X?] I am having a "logical" problem with Pierce's death and the residual Cadmium X. It involves understanding what Michael "does" to kill Pierce. In Destiny, Michael raises his hand and Pierce is thrown backward against an object. When I watched that originally, I assumed that Pierce had broken his neck (or some other lethal thing) and had died as a result. If that was the case, then the "blast" we see from Michael is one primarily of force--the same type of action that we see crushing all those rocks in Skin and Bones. But there is NO reason to assume that any type of transfer of elements takes place during a blast of force. There IS plenty of reason, however, to assume a transfer of elements during a heated palm caused death. And then there are those fused bones to consider. If we understand the killing agent in both blast & palm murders to be radiation, then we have an entirely different scenario (damn, why did I just think of Godzilla?). Having alien hybrids who can "shoot" lethal doses of radiation and kill from a distance certainly is at home in the world of SF. Yet I must say it is far from subtle. And I guess I would have expected something a bit more subtle from our writers. Again--Is this radiation also present at other times or is just the killing agent? Remember--when Max explains to Liz about their ability to rearrange molecules, he himself does not know "how" they do it. And if Cadmium X is not found on earth--then it seems to me its origin cannot be credited to those advanced human powers we heard about last season. It may well be purely alien--and maybe due to those different cells we know of? It would be nice to know exactly what we can ascribe to that alien DNA. Only Roswell would wake me up at 4:30 with questions like these. Roswell Season 2...it has begun! LSS PS Make sure you praise Squanto/Darien, Ken/Net Ranger, and Leif/Goldenboy for how well the boards ran last night--they worked hard to achieve that speed before the season started. By LSS 10-03-2000, 06:15 AM quote:Originally posted by Kate6058: I am also extremely curious about Nasedo's death. What was that black thing on his chest? [/B] Welcome back Kate6058! I almost sent you a pre-season 2 e-mail yesterday wondering where you were!!! Your observations raise some interesting issues. You are SO right to note the state of Harding's body. Harding looks like he has been roughed up and those wounds on his chest (framed visually with the blood from his nose above them) produce a quite different picture from that chaste palm print we've seen thus far in alien caused deaths. Between this mode of attack and the empty skins, we really do have some indication that the bad aliens may NOT be simply a warring faction of Max's own species. Interesting. Kate--are you going to start up your old thread on the spoiler page (The SF of the Spoilers]? LSS By HollyLou 10-03-2000, 06:39 AM quote:Originally posted by Kaylan: Oh and the evil alien that was watching michael and nasedo kind of reminded me of that movie with arnold swarznegger.Ugh what's it called?? Predator with Arnold back in the mid 80's! (Ops, that's been answered!) I was totally confused by the coroner's explanation that bones don't burn. That's exactly what cremation is (according to Webster's-to reduce to ashes by BURNING). I suppose the discovery by a geologist of perculiar 'ashes' mixed with dirt would not have been as dramatic as presenting the sheriff with bones! By LSS 10-03-2000, 07:12 AM quote:Originally posted by HollyLou: I was totally confused by the coroner's explanation that bones don't burn. That's exactly what cremation is (according to Webster's-to reduce to ashes by BURNING). I suppose the discovery by a geologist of perculiar 'ashes' mixed with dirt would not have been as dramatic as presenting the sheriff with bones! Hi HollyLou! This is off the top of my head (if there are any folk who have worked in a crematorium out there feel free to butt in), but I think bones burn only after a rather high temperature. [NOTE: in a post below someone actually has a funeral parlor friend who notes that in cremation the body is burnt but the bones have to be ground.] I think the kind of fire we saw in that desert scene would char bones but not burn them to ash. Again this is NOT a technical opinion--any funeral parlor folk out there? God, this is kinda gruesome this early in October...but maybe in step with Halloween month! LSS By Kaylan 10-03-2000, 07:20 AM I know some people like to think that maybe Pierce was an alien (I'm kind of in the middle) Well someone else (sorry I can't remember who) pointed out that when Nasedo dies he has blood that's coming out of his nose.This looks strangely familiar to the image of Liz that pierce showed Max in WR. Do the writers have a thing for bloody noses or is this a hint that Pierce was an evil alien? Oh well just food for thought. Kaylan By AlienMom 10-03-2000, 08:30 AM LSS, I'm not funeral parlor folk, but I do have a great reference book. It says that for efficient cremation, an initial temp of 1 100 to 1300 degrees F. is needed, rising to over 1700 degrees in the process. Temperatures of 2000 to 2500 degrees may be reached. By Secret~Keeper 10-03-2000, 08:59 AM quote:Originally posted by CharlieGirl: Howdy folks, I have several questions. The coroner said, "Bone doesn't melt". I did not know that. What happens during cremation? Charlie I can answer the cremation one. As told to me by a funeral director, what happens in cremation is that the body is burned. The skin, organs, etc all turn to ash. The bones do not burn. After cremation of the body the bones are ground into dust. The majoirity of ashes from cremation is actually the crushed bone. Odd the things I know... By LSS 10-03-2000, 09:03 AM Thanks for that info!!!! LSS By Leneba 10-03-2000, 09:15 AM I had a terrible case of insomnia last night, all because of the Roswell thoughts buzzing around in my head. I should've just given up and gotten on the computer earlier! Regarding the Cadmium X, I agree with Lorrilei and others who believe it to be a biproduct of killing and not healing. Although intense energy is needed for both (judging by the physical toll the act of healing takes on Max and the amount of force that is released in order to blast Pierce across the room and/or melt internal organs and bones) the intent behind the energy release couldn't be more different. In this regard, intent seems to be everything. Healing is a selfless act, a gift that comes from within the best part of Max. Killing is a selfish act, a means to an end, sometimes justified, sometimes not. Come to think of it, I don't recall Michael or Nasedo being particularly tired after a display of killing power. Perhaps in the healing process, releasing the amount of energy required in a controlled manner while preventing any damaging effects or biproducts (albeit unconsciously, since Max doesn't know exactly what he's doing) such as Cadmium X from being deposited or formed might be very exhausting. I doubt Cadmium X would be a bi-product of casual use of powers, since that would make it very easy to track the aliens. The royal four...so now we know they come from a patriarchal monarchy, since Max is the King and Leader. That implies a birthright--at the least, some sort of innate superiority over those in the general alien population. Since the aliens seem to have the technology of cloning one's "essence" (which I take to be a blend of soul and personality), do they also have the technology to test/judge an individual's innate goodness and fitness to lead in a biological sense? I'm wondering what made the podsters royal in the first place. Simple inheritance? What about Tess and Michael? Are they royal by association? Perhaps Tess and Max's union was politically motivated, as some have suggested. Was Tess a queen or princess from another society? I guess I'm still stuck on the whole essence-cloning/human-alien hybrid/destiny issue. It seems to me that if one's essence were to be cloned, that doesn't mean that one's emotions and experiences would be cloned as well. So I think that although the potential for Max and the others to pick up where their alter-egos left off is there, but given their different experiences and bodies, they really are unique and separate individuals. Yes, whatever innate qualities and characteristics that motivated the couples to be together in the first place probably were cloned. But their feelings, their relationships, their lives are different and new. I don't buy the whole destined to be together bit. As badly as the folks back home want them to be, they are NOT the same people. However, that doesn't seem to have dulled the podsters sense of responsibility in the matter. As far as the vision that Liz saw when Max touched her, I think it was the accidental result of their intense emotions. His feelings were so strong that perhaps it only took a touch for her to pick up on the images this time. Perhaps it happened because now they are so "in tune" with each other, despite the recent months of separation. Even when Max deliberately opened himself to her in the Pilot episode, he didn't even know if it had worked, let alone what she had seen. So from Liz's reaction Max has an inkling that something happened, but I really don't think it was in any way intentional or directed on Max's part. Ooo, wait. Now that I think about it, the only time Liz has recieved images from Max's touch alone was in that first contact. So maybe Max DID open himself up to Liz, perhaps not consciously, but just because he wanted so desperately to regain their earlier closeness. Still, I don't think he controlled what she saw. There's more, but I can't think right now. Rachelle By LSS 10-03-2000, 09:20 AM Just a note to say that I will be off this thread for a while as I am doing the SF Review/Commentary for Skin and Bones today. When I finish and send it to Darien I will also post it to this thread for your die-hard SF viewers. Talk to you later, LSS By Leneba 10-03-2000, 09:59 AM I just remembered the other little thing I wanted to bring up. Did anyone notice a new confidence in Max? It's as if the trauma of the white room, coupled with his intentional vulnerability to Liz and Valenti afterwards triggered a latent, innate strength. It was obvious from his take-charge speech before they went after Pierce. Yes, he doesn't have all the answers, but his status as leader is clear. When I think of his shy, tentative nature for most of the last season, I can't help but think that he's finally come into his birthright. The order he gave Nasedo was a blatant demonstration, but more subtle are his interractions with Liz, which while akward, contain more confidence than before. Why does Nasedo refer to the evil aliens as the Skins? Because they seem to leave castings? Or do they wear the skin (or perhaps the entire body) of a human victim as a disguise? Remember Momogram said that they would only know their enemies by "the evil within". Perhaps they are able to invade human bodies instead of just resembling them like Nasedo. That way there would be no detectable alien physiology to betray their presence. One last thought: Someone brought up the question of dental records with regards to identifying Pierce's remains, and why they weren't used. I was wondering the exact same thing. Then I realized they would only check against the dental records of missing people, not live ones. And since Nasedo as Pierce was alive and well at the time the bones were found, there would be absolutely no reason to check the teeth against his records. They would be unable to find a match at all. My last question is, now that Nasedo is dead, how are they going to dispose of his body? They can't afford a repeat of what happened with Pierce's bones. Maybe they'll have to change his remains to something thoroughly inorganic and unremarkable. OK, I lied. One last thing-- Since when do congresspeople involve themselves in the forensic, fact-finding part of a local murder case? I agree with those of you who find it peculiar. I like the theory that she's one of the enemy. She DID seem to be aware of Tess's manipulations (oh, sorry, Mind Warp) in a way that seems unusual, as someone pointed out. And her association with Pierce, who supposedly headed this super-duper, top secret, ruthless department of the FBI...rather suspicious for a mere representative. She doesn't bother to hide this association from Valenti. If the public knew about her alien-hunting interests, wouldn't she be laughed/thrown out of office? Sorry for all of the rambling, but I think I've sucessfully purged my brain of these distracting thoughts. Now I can get on with the day and maybe even get some sleep tonight! Rachelle By dunraven 10-03-2000, 09:59 AM I lurk but don’t post because this thread just goes so fast but I’ve been thinking of this all morning. So . . . I recruited someone who works for EPA - yeah us! Anyway, she was talking about Cadmium (not X as it is unknown) which is a soft silver-white metal (Handprints anyone?) which also has an incredible high melting point. The high temperature was mentioned by Pierce in The White Room when he was talking about his murdered predecessor, wasn’t it? I was thinking that maybe its not the alien exposure but rather the amount of alien exposure which leave a trace element. Pierce was killed, Liz was dying so there was a lot of alien activity. Maybe, Kyle was seriously hurt but not dying (not as much blood) and therefore in healing him, not as much contact was needed. This could explain why he didn’t have a silver handprint and possibly why cadmium X will not be found in his system. Also, because of the aborted exposure, this may explain why the element didn’t appear in GC ( or maybe it did and no one checked) Just one more thing before I go back to work; Cadmium has serious health problems with long term exposure (think Lead). So, If Liz is not going to evolve (I’m hoping for this one - “he changed me”) then she will be having some serious health concerns later. By ROStaFEHRian 10-03-2000, 11:02 AM LENEBA! LENEBA! Good to see you I have been thinking about you and missing you here for a long time. I hope you and your family are well. I really enjoyed reading both of your beautifully expressive posts. I, too, believe that the podsters have their own personality, souls, or 'spirit/essence' if you will. The glimmers of a past life or memory fragments may be residua or artifacts of what ever assisted process contributed to their coming into being/existence. Perhaps all the various beings (alien? advanced humans perhaps of ancient lineages? hybrids/clones/genetically engineered? all the above?) hiding in plain sight around Roswell, and other places near and far, are still living out a script of events or conflicts that happened long, long, long ago. However Max, Michael, Isabel came into being, regardless of who created them, they have grown into their own, with their own flaws, and with their own evolving feelings, associations, morality and ethics. Just briefly on radiation. I think people will find this website very informative and fun to read. http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/gcr.html Some radiation energies only exist outside of our atmosphere (ie, shield). This is the most energetic of radiation. Background radiation left over from the big bang; cosmic radiation (CGR: considered high energy particles rather than e-m radiation) from supernovae travelling the universe; high energies in solar furnaces where, among other processes, helium atoms fuse to form heavy elements. Such energies would not exist form an earthly source. I'm stating this clumsily. I found this NASA site for Cosmic Galactic Radiation when the topic came up in XFiles BIOGENESIS. Follow the link for ISOTOPE. Then click on the "Astronomy Basics" link on the left menu of the page and then follow links for topics such as composition, magnetic fields. Humans bioaccumulate cadmium from the food chain or inhale/ingest from industrial waste, but there is no biological role for cadmium in humans. Plants have cadmium, but I do not know the role. Anyone? In nature, cadmium is found as an impurity in zinc deposits. There are natural isotopes, but the X, the unknown, is the 'alien' isotope. I agree with JENLEV, I think we may see Riverdogsedo again. But...is Harding really gone? I have an uneasy feeling that perhasp Max is not awake. We see him fall onto his bed, obviously exhausted. It is a common trick in TV/movies to show the person opening their eyes as if awake. I am just baffled that Max would run shirtless (and what a chest!) down the streets of Roswell. Note the still from the trailer with the empty card rack when he enters the diner Iit appears he is alone?). In the next scene the podsters are there, then Tess and Liz are with him. Did anyone else note that Tess waves her handover the side of his face. What is that about. ?Healing. Liz sees this too. Perhaps the encounter with Harding (a pentacle wound on his chest), the running in the street, entering, and then being in the diner are not proximal or successive events. Perhaps something else happens in between some or all of these scenes and/or at different times? Rosta By Kate6058 10-03-2000, 11:41 AM Even if the CadmiumX is present only after killing, and I think it probably is, I still think there must be something left after a healing, also. They could have a really interesting storyline there, but they probably won't bother to take the time to focus so much time on the humans. Say Liz did have Cadmuim or some other alien element left in her, as so many people have been discussing forever (the changed Liz and all that... the ideas I love... I don't know why I've never posted on the Liz/Alien Mythology thread!) Think of the strain that would put on Max knowing that he actually could have harmed her in some way. But if healing is for the better, but the healed person ended up further harmed, only to need to be healed again, would they get stuck in a cycle of healing over and over? Could Liz (and Kyle even?) ever become physically dependent on Max for survival? Maybe this is where all that half-alien speculation could come in. But for the most part, I think that if some trace element was left behind as a result of healing, it wouldn't have come from the same place as the power used for killing. It's hard to tell... thinking back to the basic alien powers, all they are doing is moving cells around, so when they kill, they do something like tear a blood vessel (like in the books), not emit huge quantities of radiation. I've always been under the impression that they killed the same way they healed, that their powers weren't "magic powers" giving off "special energy" that would kill. Michael's killing Pierce, however, almost disproves that. I was always very confused... I wondered how he could have changed something inside of him from that distance. I wonder if they are even sticking to this anymore? Can they do more than manipulate molecular structure now? If they can't, then the Cadmium is probably left behind in both killing and healing as an afterproduct of their effort... but if they kill differently than their powers were originally explained, who knows. I think the writers have just gone in an entirely different direction and failed to explain a lot of things to us. By Melodious1 10-03-2000, 11:48 AM Hey everyone, I tried getting in here last night, but got so caught up in reviewing the theories and pondering I literally fell asleep in front of my computer! quote:Originally posted by dunraven: Cadmium (not X as it is unknown) is a soft silver-white metal (Handprints anyone?) which also has an incredible high melting point. I was thinking that maybe its not the alien exposure but rather the amount of alien exposure which leave a trace element. Hey dunraven, I like your theory about the handprints (cadmium) appearing during the amount of alien contact, however, I don't think it's just the amount that counts. I also believe intensity and focus/stress have to do with it as well, regardless whether it's healing, killing, putting out fires, etc. As for Kyle, I don't think we've been previed yet as to whether he did or didn't receive a handprint from Max. It wouldn't surprise me if he did, but something tells me he didn't get one. Liz DID receive a handprint though (which would make me believe she *does* have the CadX in her): ~Liz -as far as we can tell- is the first person Max ever healed ~Max had/has very intense feelings for Liz. I believe his powers were effected by this (not unlike Michael's powers during his various emotional states season 1). He might have used too much energy (Max was very inexperienced in his powers healing Liz, barring the bird he healed when he was 6), possibly much more energy necessary due to his heightened emotional state. Which is why he left the print on Liz (and also the cadmium markings on the stove in TH, he was scared for his mother). But possibly not why he left one on Kyle, Mike in ID or neither Claudia or Edsedo (as far as we know). I also believe Liz was changed even more due to the amount of alien contact via Max (much due to his intense feelings for her). But I suppose this is a more appropriate discussion for the Liz Mythology thread. The one question always remains, if Liz *doesn't* have this CadX in her (and/or hasn't been changed by it via her [intense] contact with Max)... then why does she have visions that supposedly only aliens are supposed to have? clarinetkate: In regards to Whitaker being an evil alien. I'm going to have to agree with you Whitaker was also giving me the "creepy vibe", much because of the points you mentioned in your post. Hypothetically speaking, if Whitaker IS an evil alien, HOW long has she been so? I'm assuming there would be a real Congresswoman Whitaker at sometime, right? How do these "evil aliens" intermingle amongst normal humans initially (and seemingly VERY convincingly)? Granted, it's probably too soon to be speculating this, but I'd assume they're not unlike Harding; possibly kill the human they want to impersonate (by tearing off the top layer of skin, exposing the new face/body underneath and/or shapeshift)? If we ask how long the Podians of Planet Twilo have known about Earth, I have to ask how long have these "evil aliens"? Did they only become aware of Earth when the podsters were sent to it? Or were the podsters sent here to specifically dispose of these Skins/"evil aliens" that were pre-existing on Earth? Maybe the EA were here first, but the Podians were the ones to master the benefits of what Earth has to offer (which could be a much more immense power then we realize yet)? It seems certain the EA want to kill/capture the podsters, if Planet Twilo was just a planet of slaves, more or less, why would these hybrid podsters be such a threat to these presumedly superior EA? Unless the podsters possessed a power which the EA knew could destroy them (their world), right? LSS made a reference to this in an earlier post. I honestly believe that neither these Skins/EA OR the Podians care about humans. I do believe however there's possibly something on Earth that BOTH alien factions want to control (the power of the human mind? One of the only things Edsedo seemed to value amongst humanity, WR). I think it would be interesting if the (possibly) very powerful podsters ultimately refused to fight for these Podians or follow THEIR alien plan, but side with humanity to rid Earth of all these aliens seemingly everywhere now (expanse of beeping lights at the end of "Destiny")! One final question: Where is TicTac?? We haven't seen him since "Crazy" last season... I was hoping we'd see a suspicious looking pill popper in S&B, but nada. Melodious By Leneba 10-03-2000, 12:36 PM ROSta, thanks for the link the isotope explanation. It was a nice refresher for a non-science person like me. I've been here all along (and everyone's doing well, thanks), but I haven't had the time to post on the SF threads for a while now. But how could I resist this fun with the new season starting? Melodious, I too was looking for that tell-tale box of Tic-Tacs. Hmm. You bring up a very interesting point, one that I think was referred to at some time in the past. Are we Earthlings inconsequential in the good/bad alien struggle? But if we are so feeble in comparison to the aliens, why bother to go to such lengths to hide themselves? Well, the answer from the podster's point of view is clear. There are only a few of them and they are vulnerable, both physically and emotionally. Their lives are deeply entwined with their human families and friends, now more than ever. But what about the Skins? They seem like formidable enemies. Perhaps they are incapable of direct war-like confrontations, but must instead infiltrate and infect their targets. I suppose their choice to remain hidden from the general human population could be a tactic directed solely at the podsters and for no other particular reason. It will be interesting to see what the human role (and not just the characters that we know) will be in the alien struggle. Rachelle By ms_gwyn 10-03-2000, 01:30 PM Hello All, This is my first time posting to this thread. I'm also at work so I have to do this quickly. I've read most of the comments on the board, but not all of them, please forgive if I raise a point that has been covered and I will go into more detail once I get home, but I just couldn't resist posting to this board. My main thoughts were about the Skins and then they trickle down from there: 1) We must rember that when the pod squad set off the communicators, it can be assume it signaled to the skin or other evil aliens the location of the Royal Four. 2) I think the skins use their shedded skin as a calling card. First they test Michael to test his knowledge of them and then Nasedo to warn (kind of giving him a running head start). As for them not being able to see the skins, but sense them -- Nasedo more strongly than Michael, I don't have a theory on that one yet. -- let me think about it, maybe if you don't know what your looking for you can't see it? Kind of like in the Myst book of D'ni "DO I SEE YOU?". 3) Also Nasedo's relationship to the PQ or R4 has always been on a need to know basis. We can assume that Nasedo diviulged a little more information about their purpose/ destiny, but only enough and the only reason he did this is because that had activated the communicator and saw "mom". Comments: I like the idea of Tess being an arranged marriage to Max, she loved him, but he not her. Max only married Tess for sometype of treaty agreement and Max loved another. From some of what I've read in the How Important is Liz to the mythology and the theories that they have presented...my theory is that Liz is Max's true love on the home planet and Liz has to discover this, she also maybe acting like she on the home planet -- pushing Max to Tess to save the planet and sacrifice their love. Gee I think I'm becoming a dreamer or at least gave the dreamers some hope. I'm also spoiler free on Roswell so what I've just written is pure wild speculation. Ciao Ms. Gwyn By KLS 10-03-2000, 01:47 PM Some thoughts… quote:Originally posted by BehrAll: Were we given a reason why they didn't bother checking the dental records of the skeleton ... which of course would come back as Pierce's? Isn't that standard with inidentified corpses? Or was the skull somehow damaged and I missed it?” Good point BehrAll. What’s the deal there? Does anyone know? quote:Originally posted by clarinetkate: It seemed like Whitaker was AWFULLY up to speed on CadmiumX (and yet curiously idiotic on carbon dating, which I remembered right away but actually had to say, wait what was an isotope again??). I wondered if someone who KNEW that the cadmiun would be there instructed them to look for it.. LOL clarinetkate! My sentiments exactly! Also… I think the point in the show was that bone doesn’t melt (rather than burn). The rib bones the camera focused on were melded/fused, suggesting melting. Bone will burn to ash (and as SecretKeeper pointed out in an earlier message, in the case of cremation there are always some fragments that have to be ground to ash form). I think the new waitress is a good candidate for a Skin. The other three new characters (geologist, congresswoman, and deputy) are trying to focus attention on the alien aspect and are actively bringing in the authorities. I would think these Skins would want to keep a low profile on the whole alien connection, since doing otherwise might expose their own agenda (and their existence) in the process. But who knows… no doubt the writers are working on all sorts of plot twists. Wonder why Nasedo didn’t just eliminate the congresswoman back in DC when he realized she could prove a threat to the whole project. He didn’t worry about keeping a particularly low profile while killing off countless others. Then again, he did point out that he would be somewhat sorry to kill her due to the diddling factor (this with satirical emphasis, of course). Anyway, I’m also wondering why any one in Congress would so publicly promote the alien angle since to do so would constitute political suicide. Any thoughts on this guys? Finally… Harding/Nasedo has always impressed me as a sort of drone… or rather someone who was engineered for the sole purpose of protecting the royals (with single minded determination). Okay… I’ll let it go for now. Damn! Enjoying this season already… KLS By SF 10-03-2000, 01:56 PM LSS said 4) THE SKINS. We have now been introduced to the "bad aliens" though only through their shed skins. Odd. Are we to think of some reptilian race that shed their outer skins? Or, unlike Harding, do these aliens change shapes by shedding (and leaving behind) the skins of their old ones? And what about their vision? The depiction of their presence and observation of Michael and Harding is almost like some type of heat oriented image (minus the coloring). Any ideas as to its nature? Others have already brought this up, but both the shed skins, and the infra-red imaging made me think we were supposed to interpret that the "bad aliens" are reptile-like. Some snakes (e.g., pit viper) do actually detect their prey by sensing its heat. It also seems to be a pretty standard ploy to portray bad aliens as reptiles (think "V" or "Earth Final Conflict"), probably because it's so easy to get the audience to transfer all their negative perceptions about snakes/reptiles onto the bad/reptile-like character. Kaylan also brought up a good point "Oh and that alien had the power to be invisable too. Well not really invisable but it was sort of like a chameleon." If the "skin" is indeed matching its background we have yet another scaled critter characteristic. Lenaba said Why does Nasedo refer to the evil aliens as the Skins? Because they seem to leave castings? Or do they wear the skin (or perhaps the entire body) of a human victim as a disguise? Remember Momogram said that they would only know their enemies by "the evil within". Perhaps they are able to invade human bodies instead of just resembling them like Nasedo. That way there would be no detectable alien physiology to betray their presence. Great point Lenaba. I got the impression that Nasedo refers to them as Skins because of the castings, but the skin shapes are so alien or non-human that it does make you wonder about Momogram's warning. The "glove" Michael found seemed like a stereotypical "grey" hand shape, and the skin Harding saw looked like a frog leg skin to me. Maybe the skins are no the evil aliens. I tend to agree with the theory that Cadmium X is only produced when the energy level is lethal, i.e., Michael's energy projection, or Nasedo's hand contact. My question is do you only see this residue in human bone, or would the car Michael blasted in Destiny also show traces? Rosta said Humans bioaccumulate cadmium from the food chain or inhale/ingest from industrial waste, but there is no biological role for cadmium in humans. Plants have cadmium, but I do not know the role. Anyone? In nature, cadmium is found as an impurity in zinc deposits. There are natural isotopes, but the X, the unknown, is the 'alien' isotope. Hey Rosta, thanks for the info. Check out your private messages. I'm starting to lean towards the idea that rather than the aliens transferring Cadmium X into a human body when they kill, their lethal energy changes the cadmium that is present in the human body to Cadmium X. Qfanny, I was excited to hear them refer to the nuclear testing too, but did you notice that the carbon dating tech at Las Cruces said the testing was in the '50s. So we have time line problems again. At least at the time of the crash, they wouldn't have known about the testing. Though the pod chamber could have been set up after the testing. Rosta said I am just baffled that Max would run shirtless (and what a chest!) down the streets of Roswell. Note the still from the trailer with the empty card rack when he enters the diner Iit appears he is alone?). In the next scene the podsters are there, then Tess and Liz are with him. Did anyone else note that Tess waves her handover the side of his face. What is that about? Healing. Liz sees this too. My take is that the Max with no shirt = better ratings. It cracked me up that he went to bed with his pants and shoes on. I missed the empty card rack, but I interpreted the end of last night's episode and the trailer to be sequential. Max left the CD after he spoke to Liz, and she went into the CD. Harding show's up at Max's and dies (he puts his hand on Max's chest before he dies). Max freaks, and runs back to the CD. Everyone is still there. If you're right and he's barefoot when he gets to the CD, then he lost his shoes somewhere along the way. When does the red handprint show up? Max also looks seriously out of it when Tess does her hand thing. Now that I think about it, I tend to agree that something more happens than we got to see. Hopefully next week we'll get some answers. SF PS Wasn't the overzealous deputy in a few eps at the end of last season? By ROStaFEHRian 10-03-2000, 02:37 PM Hi SF Yep, I think it is radiation/energy that is transferred. The energy, the energetic particles, and the subsequent heat created/dissipated, do the damage (ie, fusion materials, unstable nuclei =radioactivity and isotope formations, etc) Less energetic radiation and energetic particle damage may run the spectrum of causing (albeit less drammatically)acute or chronic cell/DNA damage, immediately lethal or with a long latency. Healing energy (along with its cosmic/supernatural overtones) may, among other forces I'll just take on sci-fi faith, generate the right amount of beneficial energy (ie, atomic 'vibrations') and heat to stimulate blood flow and repair mechanisms, etc to improve healing. The other less-definable things are unexplainable only in the SPEED in which they are done, but not the processes. Think of species that regenerate, stem cell reseach, nerve growth factor, angiogenesis, cell repair mechanisms, telemerase fidelity and on and on. SF said: My take is that the Max with no shirt = better ratings. It cracked me up that he went to bed with his pants and shoes on. Exactly. I feel the same way. I went back to the stills last night and realized he did have his shoes on. My mistake. But check out the empty card rack in that scene on the stills. What do you make of that. By non continuous, I only meant that from the time Max holds the dying Nasedo (Phil, would you come here, darling. Who is this man on Max's floor. What is this stuff on my carpet. And where the heck is Maxie?) until he reaches the diner, other things must have happened. Including acquisition of the red palm print. I'm sure an awake Max would have disposed of the body before he ran to the diner. And Max would certainly grab a shirt. A few more moments shirtless on the bed would have upped my ratings even further. I would not be surprised if Max was dreaming all or part of the incident after he fell (?asleep) on the bed. KLS, in one of my posts above, I did mention the bizarre nature of the hearings (as if the whole scene were not real). Not only is it political suicide, but I have problems with the congressperson with the green inflatable alien on the table. The whole thing is 'off' to me. A dream? Rosta By Shera 10-03-2000, 02:54 PM Hello all! I don't normally post here but, wow, you guys post some interesting stuff! Anywhoo, my only input (along with agreeing with a lot that has been said!) is that did anyone else find it wierd that a geological surveyor was using a metal detector? (sorry if this has been discussed already) Why would he need one? He's not looking for metal. A bit too convenient I think. Oh and what Deputy would watz into his superiors office blathering about sensitive evidence in front of a total stranger? My guess is that he would be busted down to Meter Maid so fast his head would spin. My 2 cents - Shera By Kate6058 10-03-2000, 03:15 PM I'm still stuck on the healing/killing energy thing... I think maybe I'm too stuck in the explanation provided in the books, but when Max said he healed Liz by manipulating molecular structure... what did he mean? I thought that maybe they moved things around with their minds, not shot a blast of energy out and let those waves do their thing, but it looks like that's what Michael did in Destiny. Maybe it was an uncontrolled blast of power that he didn't know would come out of him that left the traces of the Cadmium. Liz had a handprint, maybe because the energy was focused on one area, while it could have been spread all over Pierce. Those old theories about the silver being absorbed into the bodies of the people who were healed/killed with a mark left behind are sounding pretty accurate to me now... So when they heal, do they move molecules by using radiation/some kind of waves of energy, or was Max healing Liz completely different from Michael killing Pierce? We know that the healing method can be used to kill also (i.e. the handprint on Atherton's chest), so is there just another method of killing? Or did someone forget what was supposed to be the case and just wrote in Pierce's death that way? I hope we never have the chance to find out if Max would kill the same way he would heal. By Melodious1 10-03-2000, 03:18 PM quote:Originally posted by Shera: Anywhoo, my only input (along with agreeing with a lot that has been said!) is that did anyone else find it wierd that a geological surveyor was using a metal detector? (sorry if this has been discussed already) Why would he need one? He's not looking for metal. A bit too convenient I think. Hey Shera! I don't think his finding of Pierce's CadmiumX laced bones is the only convenient occurence... but also Isabel's rather unusual attraction to him (well, I thought it was unusual anyway). Unusual mostly because she just got done blathering to Alex about not wanting to be in a relationship at the moment. It actually kind of reminded me of young Max seeing Liz for the first time across the playground. Anyone else think Is' attraction to Grant was weird? Melodious By bkwrm79-Stargazer 10-03-2000, 03:21 PM There was a lot of use of their powers by the Aliens, something I had been hoping for. Michael practicing cracking rocks under Tess' tutelage- nice to see her sharing her training. Isabel doesn't get to do anything with her powers. Maybe next episode. Tess' mindwarp is used again- she CAN affect more than one person at a time. I notice that Representative what's-her-name, a naturally suspicious person, seemed to pose the main problem to Tess. I guess that deceiving an alert/suspicious person is harder than deceiving a larger number of unsuspecting people. I didn't buy Max aging the bones. Ok, he has the ability, but how does he know what to do? He's never done anything like this. What if he messed up, made them appear 2 million years old or something- that would have been just as clear a give away as Cadmium-X. If he'd practiced this, with Liz checking the results, it would have made more sense. Roswell! It looks like we'll have plenty for the SF threads this season. By Ken McRee 10-03-2000, 03:38 PM Dental records Valenti knows they would be used for identification purposes. So before burning the body, he could have smashed the jaw. I'd have to check the episode again and see what shape the skull is in. //Ken By iamanalien 10-03-2000, 03:55 PM Ok, I asked my chemistry teacher what she knew about Cadmium (and its known isotopes) and even though she gave me a really weird "why on earth do you want to know" look, she did have stuff to say... Like someone mentioned earlier... Cadmium is a silver white metal that is actually quite poisonous if you get a good amount... It's radioactive and some various isotopes of it can be used (when mixed with other elements) for cancer tumor radiation. Also, being that it is radio active, it has the power to dissolve any living tissue (bye bye organs) but calcium is fairly repellant to it in that it is only capable of pushing the calcium molecules together, like a fusion process (which results in a bone mass much simliar to the one found on Pierce's skeleton) also, the quantity that it takes and the heat it generates is a great deal and certainly enough to kill someone, but you knew that already By redhawk 10-03-2000, 04:48 PM Hi! Just thought I'd delurk! Love these scifi threads. So if Cadmium X is an isotope. Is it actually radioactive or is the act of creating it radioactive i.e. the blast of power? Perhaps I'm reading too much into this. Thank you dunraven for discussing actual Cadmium and it's toxicity. I was going to mention how it relates to art and art supplies i.e. Cadmium Red and Cadmium Yellow and the toxicity of Cadmium in the field of art esp. in the past. I need to go look through some of my art books to clarify this more. The dental records thing bothered me too. I kept thinking Michael was a goner. But then they never addressed it. I think Leneba's right though about why it wouldn't have pointed to Pierce afterall. That whole dialogue about carbon dating bothered me. Doesn't everyone know what carbon dating is? Isn't this taught in middle school, if not high school? And since when can you pinpoint a carbon date down to one year. ugh. I agree with others about Maria acting strange. Like she was mad at Liz or something and practically spineless around Michael. It just seemed very out of "character" for her. Excuse me, but where is Kyle? Wasn't this the night before school starts? Why does a congresswoman have an office in Roswell? Wouldn't she have her office in a larger city like Albuquerque if she's an actual representative sent to Washington DC? Unless, perhaps, she is originally from Roswell? Hmm. Either way, she gives me the creeps. How does Tess know how the particle accelerator works and how does she know what the inside of the lab looked like? Was the term "mindwarp" not a little bit hokey? Didn't the mark on Nasedo look like a brand? It kind of looked like a 6-pointed star. I can't seen to get my VCR to pause on that spot. I hope we can find a screen cap of that. Okay, one last question. Were there symbols on the little 5 sided alien beeper in destiny? Because there sure are now in the promo for next week. So much to think about, yippee! I was practically dancing around the family room after the ep. ended. By clarinetkate 10-03-2000, 04:50 PM In regards to the aliens powers... With the exception of Isabel they all showed in this episode that they have improved their powers over the summer (although perhaps Isabels flirting was more than just flirting, perhaps she was using a power of suggestion with the guard...). We had previously seen Michael explode things with his mind (the lights in White Room, inadvertantly shattered by his mind), but this time he seems to be able to focus his energy to produce the desired effect. This leads me to believe that he has been practicing all summer, I wonder what else he can do now, I bet his fingerprint transfer would be remarkably faster, and has he learned to scan things yet? Tess. In White Room she told Isabel that she could only keep her Mind Warp going for a couple of seconds, and that was to just one person. Now we see she is able to keep it going for several minutes to 8 people. Also, previously she had been working with adding something to a given environment, this time she was in effect, taking something away from it. Max has obviously become more efficient as well, from getting rid of the cadmium and aging the bones, though how he learned to do that is beyond me. The others, I can see that they were practicing, but was Max playing around with chicken bones all summer or something? Perhaps his instincts are just being sharpened. In regards to aliens, HAs anyone considered the posibility that there are other GOOD aliens out there? We have tended to assume that it's just the podsquad and TicTac and Nasedo... If there are all these skins, why aren't there lots of podsters type people as well? It seems to me that it would be a not too efficient plan to send JUST the podsters to earth to combat all these bad guys if you really thought they were gonna make it back home... --KATE By jenlev 10-03-2000, 05:37 PM hi there, rosta: interesting about the aliens acting out a script from long ago... especially given max's comment about "maybe the war is over". could that be a hint? and i agree that from next week's previews, that something happened between nasedo falling in the window and max arriving at the crashdown... perhaps a close call with a skin? perhaps during this he was unable to get to the jeep, or keep the jeep without giving himself away? and this is just a wild guess....maybe max RUNS to the crashdown because he can't afford to alert his parents to what's going on? so he can't take the jeep? after all, as mentioned by the 'therapist' at the beginning of the episode his parents are very worried about him and might not be too thrilled by the events of the evening? i'm just rambling at this point... is it next monday yet? regarding the use of energy to heal or kill: perhaps it's on a continuim... and therefore the side effects would differ depending on the way that it's implemented? i agree that there is something fishy about the geologist... and the fact that he would come out and tell isabel that that some company is thinking of building a chemical plant.... very odd...? regarding the podsters practicing their skills.... i imagine that michael might be the most open (with tess and isabel) about that... but given what has happened i expect they all have been trying to sharpen their abilities. and if any one of them (for example max)was ambivalent about being a hybrid then he might hide any progress that was made. and if someone like tess was ashamed of how she had used her skill, she might do the same? i like the idea that was posted about the potential for there being other "good-aliens". this reminds me of what has been posted about the history and current role of riverdog etc. . who knows how long the various aliens have been "hanging out in roswell"? i'm getting an image of some of the charactors finding out things about their heritages they NEVER imagined? jenlev By Qfanny 10-03-2000, 05:55 PM SciFi said Qfanny, I was excited to hear them refer to the nuclear testing too, but did you notice that the carbon dating tech at Las Cruces said the testing was in the '50s. So we have time line problems again. At least at the time of the crash, they wouldn't have known about the testing. Though the pod chamber could have been set up after the testing. Qfanny answers I still think that our timeline is right. The documentary I saw did place nuclear testing in the area in the '40s. I would bet that nuclear testing continued (remember, this was during the cold war years) and they used the same area. I think that the year 1958 is important! They refer to it several times. What happened in the area during this time. I think more than the nuclear tests that they refer too! Also, Palomino (lurking?) asked about the murder of the civilian in 1972. Was this Shelia Hubble or someone else? Congresswoman Whitaker doesn't give is a link to Shelia Hubble other than the year (and the silver iron-on!). Whitaker as an evil alien: I think yes! When Isabel says "It's you" in the teaser, she is not looking down, but straight ahead. Whomever it is, they have height! By wisters 10-03-2000, 06:17 PM Hello all, wow has everyone been busy. I only wish that I had the time to read through every single post and give them the thoughtful reflection that they all desevere. Unfortunately if I did that I would be out of a job before too long..... So I am going to post just a couple of random thoughts that are purely of my own creation. If any of these have been brought up I apologize from the get go. I do not wish to steal anyone's thunder and I know that I may not be the only one with these ideas but..... 1) Regarding the "skins", first I think that Nesado was warning Max about "skins" like giving him a clue that the evil aliens could be found by the molting of the skin left behind. Now, I believe that LSS mentioned quite earlier on this thread (or someone else, sorry) that if there were evil aliens leaving "skin" behind all the time that it would have come up in society before. Then someone suggested that perhaps that there are so few of them that it would go unnoticed. Still someone else mentioned that they do disintigrate rather quickly also. Yet another idea is that the evil alien left them on purpose as some sort of calling card. Well, here I go to offer up yet another hypothesis. What if the "skins" are a residual left behind when the evil aliens go into hunting mode. What I am suggesting is that the evil aliens, now alerted to their enemies, our pod squad, are hunting them and go into "stelth" mode, making themselves invisible. I first thought this after watching SB for the second time and I noticed that Michael turns around and seems to be facing whatever is "looking" at him and yet he doesn't see anything. Again this happens when Nesado turns around and appears to be facing whatever is watching him as well. I am also offering as support for my theory the following ideas. There would be little evidence of other skins left behind if the evil aliens haven't had reason to go into "stelth" mode previously. I also kinda like the idea that the unusual apparent"point of view" of the evil watching alien could be due to the fact that he/she/it is in a stelth mode. Finally, I have a hard time buying the idea that the evil alien is "toying" with the podsters and leaving little clues i.e. skins to let them in on the fact that they are being watched. No true predator wants its prey to know that it is there. 2) Liz and Max, what can I say? I have a totally and completely biased opinion when it comes to them. I want it to be pure and honest and real. I don't think that Max was giving Liz any images. Not intentionally at least. I kinda like the idea that they may have come to her from him without his even knowing it. I just keep telling myself that she is the only human that is getting these signals/flashes/insights whatever you want to call them from one of the podsters so please oh please let that mean something. I do know that there are some great avenues that this could go down and many have been brought up previously so I won't do that now. 3) Finally, (my brain is getting fuzzy, darn cold) regarding the residual "calling card" that is left behind....I like some of the theories about killing vs healing, but they are a little on the romantic side in some cases. Nice, but......I will throw this idea out there....The process of killing requires a great burst of energy. The energy sent into the victim may exceed the energy required to do the actually killing. The "extra" energy if you will, can't just go away. It would be absorbed into the body, thus the mutation of Cadmium into an isotope. The creation of an isotope requires lots of energy that is true. My degree is in Biology, chemistry is not my strength . The healing process seems much more controlled to me. As if the exact amount of energy that is needed to return the damaged molecular structures to their original form is the only energy that is being sent into the person (or living object, i.e. grass) while it is being healed. Thus there would be no excess energy present to have the opportunity to cause the cadmium to form an isotope. OK, these are my general rambling for the night after having watched SB for the second time. I would love to know what you think of my theories, good, bad or otherwise. But in any case, have a great Roswellian Time. Wisty PS Rachelle, your insightful and thoughtful posts inspire me to really let myself go when it comes to sharing my ideas. THANKS!!!! By LSS 10-03-2000, 06:53 PM Since I've finished the review/commentary for this eppy, but will not be able to send it to Darien until tomorrow morning (when I get to my office computer), I am posting it on this thread for you die-hard fans. Hope you enjoy it! ******************************** Skin and Bones, by LSS Skin and Bones begins with a beeping sound reminiscent of Sexual Healing's introductory frame. This time, however, it is not a broken radio tower we see but a beeping metal detector. The frame is the first in a series of chiastically arranged scenes structured around the theme of hiddenness. The camera shifts from the geologist digging in the sand to the therapist suggesting that Max has "buried something." As the therapist assures Max that his problems are "normal teenage stuff," our privileged interior glimpse into Max's thoughts reveals that "hiding" is something instinctual to Max. It is only after Max agrees with the therapist that the camera shifts back to the initial scene of the digging geologist. Thus, while the spatial images in the introduction alternate from desert to therapist to desert, the entire dramatic sequence is unified by the theme of hiddenness (physical hiddenness/desert--psychological and social hiddenness/therapist's office --physical hiddenness and discovery/desert). Moreover, the finding of the buried object in the final desert scene suggests that that Max's hiddenness will also be exposed. This promise, evoked in these introductory frames, is hinted at in the concluding ones when Harding, now discovered by the enemy, warns Max that the enemy is now among them. Of course, hiddenness is not all this episode is about. A number of new Science Fiction elements are also worthy of our attention: CADMIUM X, RADIATION, AND FUSED BONES. According to Skin and Bones, Cadmium X is a residual element (identified in the narration as an isotope of Cadmium) left in the bodies of murder victims killed by aliens (specifically those bodies with silver palm prints as well as Pierce's bones). It seems that Cadmium X has the properties of a metal since Pierce's bones activate Grant Sorenson's metal detector. This observation remains at the level of speculation, however, since this property is never explained even though Grant does ask why a metal detector would "locate" bones! Interestingly, the congresswoman informs the subcommittee that Cadmium X is an element that "doesn't exist" on earth--an element that is "not human." This is a tad odd since Cadmium itself IS a terrestrial element. [NOTE: If our writers meant for us to think of an unusual form of Cadmium--one that sets it apart from its earthly cousin--they should have said so! Instead we are left thinking that Cadmium is an extraterrestrial element.] By the way, Harding mentions that Cadmium X is "on" Pierce's bones (not "in" them?). From a Science Fiction perspective the repeated mention of "radiation" in this episode is intriguing. We are told that: 1) the geologist is testing in the area for residual radioactivity from nuclear testing in the 1950s; 2) the coroner ascribes the fused bones to a "short and very contained burst of unthinkable energy" (conjuring up images of radioactive activity); and 3) the scientist at the Particle Research Facility explains the fused bones as a "mutation resulting from the radioactivity tests done in the area in 1958" (also the alleged date of the bones after Max gets through with them). Science Fiction in the 1950s was obsessed with radioactivity and the atomic bomb. It was the age of fallout shelters and B-grade cautionary tales. Movies like Them! and Godzilla, the King of Monsters (both 1954) warned viewers of the danger of atomic power and the problems evoked by nuclear testing. I must admit that images of the 1950s ran through my mind as Skin and Bones shamelessly alluded to the themes of this great decade of Science Fiction! THE ROYAL FOUR. Although in Destiny we learned of Max's identity as his people's "beloved leader," it is Skin and Bones that reveals that Max's planet is (was?) monarchical (with Max its ruling monarch). From this we can assume that Isabel (as Max's sister) is/was a princess. What Tess and Michael were, however, remains to be seen. After Tess' marriage to Max, she could have been either Queen or Royal Consort (if earthly monarchies are any example of off- planet ones). Her status before marrying Max, however, is anyone's guess. Since kings often marry into other royal families, perhaps Tess was "royal" and her marriage to Max "diplomatic." Only time will tell if Tess and Michael can lay claim to the title "royal" other than by marriage/betrothal. Science Fiction is no stranger to monarchies and royal characters. While Science Fiction can function as social commentary and stories dealing with social order can be a way of critiquing self and society, royal characters can also be simply the stuff of fantasy and romance. Aside from social comment, such characters conjure up the mythic/ legendary figures of Earth's/humankind's history. (NOTE: One has only to look at the obsession over Princess Diana to note the "draw" of royalty and the subsequent fantasy that our own time weaves around them.) It will be interesting to see how Roswell develops the theme of "King" Max It would appear that our writers are laying the groundwork for an epic struggle between Max's private/personal life and his public/duty oriented one. After all, elected officials can merely step down when their jobs conflict with their personal lives. Kings have to abdicate (often with great shame). Perhaps our writers will figure out how Max can have it all--only time will tell! There are different roads to royal status. Is Max king because his father was king before him? Or did he take the throne by a coup? That is, is his planet's monarchy hereditary? Or is it based or charismatic succession? I bring up this point because Skin and Bones presents Michael as extremely dissatisfied with Max's style of "leadership." While Harding himself is not pleased with his "pacifist" leader, he does not counter Max's orders. Michael, however, goes directly against Max by contacting Harding. And Michael's comment to Max ("You're our leader. Why don't you lead?") makes Michael a character worth watching in the power dynamics of future episodes. THE SKINS. Although Destiny's last scene implied an alien presence on earth (other than Harding and our podsters), Skin and Bones gives us further clues into these aliens' nature. Harding refers to them as "skins" and indeed cast off skins are all that we see of them. Twice the audience sees "husks" — once of a hand (seen by Michael in the desert) and once of some other body part (seen by Harding near his car). Another feature of these aliens is their "odd" vision. Twice the audience "sees" objects (first Michael and then Harding) from an unusual POV. This (I think we are meant to assume) represents alien (skins') vision. Either this is simply a visual technique to clue the audience to an alien presence or it simply signals something "different" about these aliens' optic system. One interesting shot, however, shows Michael looking straight at the skin (?) without "seeing" him/her/it. Are we to think of camouflage here? Or invisibility? Or simply hiddenness? We'll have to wait till the coming episodes to resolve these questions. What is really interesting, however, are the words used by Harding to describe what will happen IF the "skins" come to Roswell. In the midst of confronting Max about his "pacifist" attitude, Harding asks if they should wait until "our enemies show up and have a nice boxed lunch of us." It may be nothing, but in my mind that statement evokes images of ingestion. Harding doesn't say that the enemies will simply kill the podsters. He says that they will eat them. When you couple this with EMPTY skins it leaves open an interesting line of speculation. Do the "skins" absorb the shape they take (leaving only the dried husk of the form they've abandoned)? Of course if there is no significance to Harding's statement, then those husks can be understood in a variety of other ways. They could be signs of: 1) sickness/stress, 2) growth, 3) a change of form, etc. EVALUATING THE SCIENCE FICTION OF THIS EPISODE. At the end of my review of Destiny last season, I evaluated the first season's Science Fiction by identifying some examples of what I thought was Good vs. Poor/Silly Science Fiction. This season I will include a new section (The Critic's Corner) in each review where I critique the episode's Science Fiction. (NOTE: The above sections are more "commentary" than a critique. Hope you enjoy the new section below.) THE CRITIC'S CORNER. a) Problematic Science Fiction in Skin and Bones. Having Max enter the Cyclotron did not "work" for me. As a lay viewer, I know nothing of the science of cyclotrons. But common sense dictates that anything placed in a containment chamber with thick walls (as evidenced when Max lifts the chamber hatch) is so placed for a reason. Even though Max leaves the chamber before the second stage of the cyclotron is activated, his presence during the first stage seemed to me incredulous. When you couple this with the exact dating of the bones via carbon dating (an impossibility of which even I am well aware) you produce a credibility issue surrounding two key SF elements of this episode. As I have said before, good Science Fiction does not have to be scientifically accurate. But it does have to be plausible. Moreover, if you are going to introduce an alien element in the storyline (Cadmium X), why chose a name (Cadmium) that is the name of a bona fide terrestrial element? Come on writers, you can do better than this! And I am not going to mention Valenti's suggestion that the bone they found belonged to a coyote. I live with coyotes all around me (they come up close to my porch all the time). And if I ever met one warranting a leg bone that size, I'd sell my farm in a heartbeat! b) Good Science Fiction in Skin and Bones. I like the idea of an extraterrestrial element residual in alien murder victims. It gives our podsters a more "alien" touch that (for me) worked nicely. Although there are still many questions surrounding this element, its presence reminds us that, although Michael is a hybrid with human DNA, his alien DNA has real consequences in his actions. I welcome this reminder of Michael's alien nature. Max told Liz that loving her had made him human (Destiny). We need to remember, however, that Max's alien DNA makes himalien as well. Another element that "worked" for me was the introduction of the elusive "skins." Having a second species on the narrative stage expands Roswell's Science Fiction potential. Now perhaps we can have truly "alien" aliens instead of human look-alike hybrid aliens. It also means that Roswell can now explore the "alien as enemy/monster" theme. It is hard to envision our Max as a menacing alien and even the joke cracking Harding (in spite of his killing and kidnaping tendencies) falls short of a truly horrendous villain. I'm looking forward to the coming episodes when our writers will "flesh-out" (ouch!) the skins. . By Qfanny 10-03-2000, 07:08 PM LSS, I really like this writing! Although it doesn't really fit into your essay, I have often wondered if Max could have been a psuedonym for Rex. Rex is Latin for King. Although I seriously doubt that Melinda Metz intended a parrallel, I can't help but speculate. I think your critics corner is very good. Sigh-- if only the writers read this. By shapeshifter 10-03-2000, 07:43 PM LSS, I actually have seen a coyote with legs that big in my yard (toward the end of a winter toward the end of an 8-year drought in the high desert of Northern California near the Oregon border), and, yes, it was a little frightening. RedHawk: your mention of the Cadmium colors woke me up. Maybe Cadmium was chosen because the writers actually read some of the Color Theories of Nemo and others. That is: yellow is generally bad, and red too. Perhaps Cadmium is only left after "bad" alien power is released, e.g. killing. So, then, Qfanny, maybe the folks who eat Iz or Michael's cooking are only getting a little lapis lazuli--um, not sure if that's toxic. But then Cobalt (another cool blue) is definitely toxic. I am really dwelling on the idea that the Skins can only kill shapeshifters (when using Skin Skills), and that is why the podsters were given human form. I was troubled that Valenti didn't mention to Michael that he himself would have killed Pierce too at that point, and that he (Valenti)had in fact killed Hubble at a similar point. When Tess tells Max "I won't let you down" it is obvious that she still seeks his trust and acceptance. By LSS 10-03-2000, 08:00 PM quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter: LSS, I actually have seen a coyote with legs that big in my yard (toward the end of a winter toward the end of an 8-year drought in the high desert of Northern California near the Oregon border), and, yes, it was a little frightening. Geesh--I've see quite a few, but none even approximating that size. That bone was huge ss!!! I have a large black lab and I just measured her leg bone. The one in the eppy is about half again her size. That is one huge coyote you saw. I think it is fair to say that it was exceptional. But I'll make note in the review of your comment just to be safe! Thanks! LSS PS you live near the Oregon border? So do I--but the other side! By shapeshifter 10-03-2000, 08:11 PM quote:Originally posted by LSS: PS you live near the Oregon border? So do I--but the other side! Not since 3 years ago, but it really was that big! By virgogurl 10-03-2000, 09:00 PM wisters: I have to agree with you. I like to think that Liz is the only one getting flashes from a Pod Squad member because she is of some importance. Of course, i am a TOTAL dreamer, so i am biased. I also totally love all the insight you guys have been providing on Cadmium X and the cyclotrons and the Carbon Dating. Reading these threads have made Roswell so much more enjoyable for me because I can speculate different ideas in my head. I also love this thread because you people are probably some of the most intelligent I have had the pleasure of listening to. KUDOS TO YOU ALL!! Jessica By GraceKel 10-03-2000, 09:09 PM QFanny just to chime in here cuz you asked about 1972 murder---wouldn't that be the SILO murder which they originally thought Valenti Sr was guilty of shooting that DRIFTER but is actually was HUBBLE? By ROStaFEHRian 10-03-2000, 09:19 PM LSS, Wonderful review and critique. Your paragraph comparing the Max's psychological terrain and desert terrain is excellent and the mining metaphor is apt and description. Just a comment about the cadmium X which, I hope, might shed more light on this. While I am baffled at the choice of cadmium (I have not yet found anything exciting about Cd, and would have chosen another candidate metal, if it were my story, with a more 'exciting' history. Cadmium IS a metal. On the periodic table it is also period 5. It shares properties with zinc and mercury in column 12. The only thing I can think is that they chose this metal because of period 5 (V), for whatever symbolic or actual purpose. The really bad part was having the congresswoman say that it was 'inhuman' instead of saying it was 'extra-terrestrial'. Big difference. It is very appropriate to select a candidate element found naturally occurring on earth, with its natural occurring isotopes, and propose a hypothetical isotope (X) that results from a heat of fusion or energy bombardment that has no earthly source could produce. Perhaps a physicist out there can tell us what is the highest heat possible in human-made experimental conditions. The highest energetic particles, of the galactic cosmic radiation, fly freely through space but they don't penetrate earth's atmosphere. Hence, these energies are not terrestrial (vs. saying they are inhuman; that's ridiculous). Cadmium is a metal, it is terrestrial, and the naturally occurring isotopes are known. So if a new spike appeared on a spectrometer, it would be considered new and possibly extra-terrestrial in origin. That would be true for any other number of metals or hydrogen and helium. An astronomy/cosmology person will have to explain this further or how elemental abundance is measured in the universe. I posted a link above, which is very readable for the non-science person. I'll repeat it here. Follow the links for :isotopes, astrophysics basics. http://helios.gsfc.nasa.gov/gcr.html Radioactivity means that an unstable nucleus (an isotope) emits particles to become stable. An ISOTOPES are nuclei with the same number of protons but different numbers of neutrons. The nuclei emit particles to become stable (#n= #p). There are alpha, beta, gamma, x-rays (ionizing) and other. Gamma are very high energy and most penetrating, and while the others are less energetic and of variable penetrations (ie, alpha particle = helium nucleus, can be stopped with a piece of paper), they have adverse health effects. Gamma is deadly acutely. Radiation is lumped into 2 major types ionizing and non-ionizing. Ultraviolet radiation and microwaves are examples of non-ionizing. The latter has sufficient energy to cause molecules to vibrate and dissipate heat. Hence cooked food. Ionizing radiation = particles or rays with sufficient energy to strip the atom of electrons, leaving behind a charged ion and unstable nuclei which emits particles. 'Radiation' applies to a range of wavelengths and energies over a spectrum. It is important to point out that radiation can be emitted massively and catastrophically as in Hiroshima, Cernobyl. But consider that some isotopes have half-lives in the millions of years (ie, uranium-235) or more and are part of the background and natural sources. Also consider that the most common earthly exposure to NATURAL radiation is from RADON, an alpha particle emitter, which are inhaled, hence risk of lung cancer. In the earth's crust are many radioactive materials. Duration and dose of exposure are important for all radiation sources: background, solar, natural, human-made (electronic devices, manufacture, incineration, nuclear plants), etc. And whole body exposures limits are set by EPA and AEC standards for normal activity of daily living as well as for specific situations and persons: certain occupational environments, nuclear plant workers, health care workers, children, pregnant women, etc. Theory is that a cluster of some Hollywood stars who worked on a particular movie of the 50's died of cancer associated with filming westerns in Nevada sites where there were uranium mines (radon is the final isotope of uranium decay) It is important to clarify this because someone might assume that radiation only occurs in a sudden burst. People who have had radon detected in their homes or live over/near poorly contained waste sites can tell of the fear and heartbreak let alone expense of discovery. Anyone with expertise please add, modify or correct any mis-statements. I'll add any good links I find. I don't know enough to articulate about cyclotrons. NEMO? It is important to not take for granted that people know things. Someone may be familiar with the term carbon-dating and have not a clue about what is/can be dated. I'll try to find a link for it so those who might shy away from asking can follow. Rosta By Merbird 10-03-2000, 09:37 PM I have been lurking from afar for weeks, am usually too inhibited to reply, but here goes anything: You all have the most amazing ideas and observations. I was thinking about the way our view or perhaps the evil alien’s view is skewed when we see them looking at Michael and Nacedo. I was thinking that they are doing something to make themselves invisible and that warps the way they see things? The whole Sci/Fi aspect of Cadmium X. Well, I guess I have been a Trekkie for too many years, I just kind of accept a certain amount of unreal to be present, giving the hint of alien or out of this world things. Of course it’s not real….the whole program is not real. But then, that’s why I watch it, I want good Not Real entertainment. I enjoyed the whole Max in the accelerator thing….so long as I leave reality in the closet. The effects were good. The idea to use this to get Michael out of jail is at least good along the lines of something aliens might do?? I really like this program. I have never had a TV show pull me in like this. Have any of you? I look forward to many more hours of lurking and possibly even of delurking. We still have at least 12 more episodes to go and if all goes well…more, many more. Bye from yet another obsessed Roswellian. By BehrAll 10-03-2000, 10:38 PM I just wanted to say thanks for the insights regarding the whole dental record thing. I guess I just figured that they'd run the record on hand against a general database -- after all, missing persons records are notoriously prone to inconsistencies. A friend of mine, a cop, once told me that it's really difficult to know what to do with some m.p. files if there's no firm evidence of foul play or the person who input them made a mistake. And a lot of people "go missing" all the time that are never actually reported as such. So when they run prints, it's not unheard-of to run them against a general database to be sure, not just the population demographic that you'd assume would be right. I have no idea if I understood him correctly, but it made sense to me. Hence my confusion now. *shrug* BTW, I'm not going near the excellent theories above ... forget having the writers come in here -- I'd love to see what you guys would come up with in an episode of your own! By LilGreenKitten 10-03-2000, 11:08 PM I've been lurking for awhile. Thank you so much for this thread. Just wanted to congratulate LSS on a job well done. Love the Critics corner. I never really thought of myself as a Sci-Fi fan, Roswell's the first show remotely containing some Sci-Fi that I have enjoyed. but I am definately getting more and more hooked thanks to this thread. Keep them coming y'all. Maybe one day I'll be brave and throw my ideas out there. Sandra By JanetMG 10-04-2000, 04:22 AM Interesting thread, all. First, what I suspect may be a stupid question--why would a geologist doing radiation studies be running around with a "souped-up" metal detector rather than a geiger counter? Did we just not see an earlier step, i.e., when you hit a radioactive patch is there some follow up test involving a metal detector? How do metal detectors work--would they really pick an isotope that's "not of this earth?" Second, I'm still wondering about Tess' power. CharlieGirl on page 1 and few others since have asked how Tess was she able to know what to put in the minds of the scientists and Rep. Whitiker when she hadn't seen the inside of the facility. Ken McRee posited that "The MindWarp probably works more by suggestion than by inserting actual images . . . The brain is very good at filling in blanks and seeing what it wants to see." If so, what does that say about what we think were Tess-imposed visions last season? How much input did Max, Isabel & Michael subconsciously have in those visions? Since that thought is troubling to me, is there any other explanation for how she did it--Would it be more accurate to describe her power as one that lets her see what the target(s) is actually perceiving and then allows her to manipulate that perception? How does that differ from dreamwalking, particularly the kind Is did in WR w/an awake target? By dunraven 10-04-2000, 05:47 AM Hi again, Silly question but there is something that has been gnawling at me - If Cadmium X is a substance which is left after (conditional?) contact with an alien and Max goes to the lab to age and alter the bones, wouldn't that contact also result in a trace element of Cadmium X? It seem like a real Catch -22 to me. . . Just a brief thought on the royality aspect - From the time of the Monogram, I drew a comparison between Max/Tess and the Romans. During the twilight years of the Empire, the Emperors (particularly Claudius) was working to displace the form of government and replace it with The Republic. Quite often, the royal families and spouses (think Messina) would work covertly against their husbands/relative to prevent this. I can't help but feel that Tess is a plant in an arranged marriage with a hidden agenda similar to this. Time will tell. ROStaFEHRian - loved the mention of Cadmium's placement on the periodic table. Perhaps you should mention it on the Liz Mythology Thread. As they believe that 14 and 104 are very important numbers and if you reduce them as for numerology (1+4; 1+0 and 4), the result is 5 which brings us back to the table location and the Venus constellation. Thanks. LSS - Your writing is wonderful; now, where is my hi-lighter . . . . By LSS 10-04-2000, 06:46 AM quote:Originally posted by dunraven: Silly question but there is something that has been gnawling at me - If Cadmium X is a substance which is left after (conditional?) contact with an alien and Max goes to the lab to age and alter the bones, wouldn't that contact also result in a trace element of Cadmium X? It seem like a real Catch -22 to me. . . Hi Dunraven! Like you I wondered about that too. When I posted a query about it, the one way people resolved the issue was to categorize types of power usage. That is, they suggested that while killing left a residual trace, that simply altering molecular structures did not. Hmmm. Either they are right or we have a logical snafu here. Good catch! LSS By wisters 10-04-2000, 08:09 AM It would appear to be a catch 22 that Max is using his powers to remove the Cadmium X thus wouldn't he leave Cadmium X while using his powers? I resloved this dilema for myself with the idea that the process of killing requires a burst of energy and an excess of energy is sent into the organism being destroyed. Thus the excess energy is obsorbed by the body in the form of radiation causing the mutation of Cadmium into Cadmium X. The healing process and the process that Max appeared to use to remove the Cadmium X from the skelaton seems to be very controlled. As if only the exact amount of energy needed to preform the change or healing is being sent into the organism leaving no extra energy to form Cadmium X. Just one of many possible explainations for the apparent catch 22. Wisty By LSS 10-04-2000, 09:15 AM Hi wisters! Hey--that works for me. Do you think the writers ever notice these things? Sometimes I wonder. LSS By Aeneas 10-04-2000, 10: 10 AM If I were to take the evidence at face value then I'd have to conclude that Max has some amazing physical abilities (in addition to the fact that he can make a lot of females sweat and pant . 1) Strength - To lift the 3 ft dia. manhole cover on the Cyclotron would have required a force of 15,000 lbs. Cyclotrons require an internal vacuum to operate. (otherwise the particles would be scattering off the air molecules inside). A 3ft cover (7.07 ft^2) would be under atmospheric pressure (2.12E3 lbs/ft^2). Multiplying this out means the cover was under 14,950 lbs of pressure from the atmoshpere. Which leads us to.. 2) Ability to withstand a vacuum. Stick one of our unprotected pink human fannies inside a hard vacuum for an instant and our eyes would bug out, blood would boil, and they would find our innards lining the chamber walls. Let alone worrying about lack of Oxygen. Max just hops in and strolls about. 3) Ability to withstand high energy particles. Cyclotrons are particle accelerators. The bones would have been at the target, where the particles have been fully accelerated. Max took a blast of high energy particles in the gut and didn't flinch. Go dude. Finally, for you real sparkys out there. did anyone notice the Tektronics 535 in the corner? By LSS 10-04-2000, 10:38 AM Go dude, indeed! Thanks for your wonderful post. I knew that scene didn't "work" for me but I do not have your scientific know-how. Your post really helped sort out exactly WHY it didn't work. As I said before, even a lay person could recognize something wrong in it (although not know just what). Thanks again!!! LSS P.S. Uh...ummm...(cough)...Tektronics 535???? By ElizabethinTexas 10-04-2000, 11:05 AM Hi, guys, y'all are simply amazing with your theories, and I, a newbie to the whole sci-fi thing, will try to actually write something intelligent. My brain's a little soft from reading all four pages... I think maybe the reason why Cadmium X is not found on Earth (or terrestrial) is because, if you think about it, the podsters are advanced humans (several thousands of years in this case) so maybe this is what cadmium is like several thousands of years from now. We can't say for sure what the certain isotopes of terrestrial minerals/ metals, etc. will be like in the future. I think I might be stretching here...but oh, well. Or, because they are aliens/really evolved humans, they process cadmium that is already on earth differently, thus the X-factor. As for the flash Liz has, I think it is coming from Max, albeit subconciously (sp?), because he is so desperate to get her back, to "woo" her. Thus the whole "What?" on his part. I love, though, that she simply got this from him touching her. Well, I think I will give my brain a rest after trying to absorb all of y'alls wonderful ideas on my lunch break--folks, just take my word for it: don't do that!! LOL LSS, you rock, loved the sci-fi review, and the critic's corner. Laters, Beth By sidera 10-04-2000, 11:27 AM Go dude indeed! I was wondering about that. about Grant: I have a feeling something is up with him. I mean, c'mon! ONE person doing the invesigation of a possible chemical plany site? and why is it that we only hear about these radiation tests now? how come no one knows about the chemical plant yet. sounds kinda fishy to me. By SF 10-04-2000, 11:35 AM Wisty, you expressed your cadmium conversion idea very well. That's my take on the whole process too. Rosta said "Harding (a pentacle wound on his chest)" redhawk said "Didn't the mark on Nasedo look like a brand? It kind of looked like a 6-pointed star." Rosta and reshawk, I took a good look at the mark, it has five points/smudges, but they are not equally spaced. It's basically a rectangular shape, with points projecting diagonally out from the four corners, and with an additional point toward the head. So three points clustered on one side of the rectangle (closer to his head), and two on the other side. LSS said "… the words used by Harding to describe what will happen IF the "skins" come to Roswell. In the midst of confronting Max about his "pacifist" attitude, Harding asks if they should wait until "our enemies show up and have a nice boxed lunch of us." It may be nothing, but in my mind that statement evokes images of ingestion." LSS, thanks for bringing that point up, I had totally forgotten that he said that. I am becoming more convinced that the skins are reptile-like aliens. They shed their skins, appear to see by sensing heat differences, and can match their background well enough to be invisible to human eyes (I'm not 100% convinced that the last two observations will continue to hold water once we know more). I took a closer look at Harding's death scene, and it really looks like he's "bleeding out," there's blood coming from his ear, nostrils and mouth. To take the reptile analogy a step further, snake bite's are either neurotoxic or haemotoxic. In the latter case digestion of the prey starts at the time of the bite, and prior to ingestion - talk about a predigested box lunch. Finding a decoagulant in this type of bite would be logical, and explain a bleed out quite nicely. I'd even speculate that the mark on Harding's chest is a bite mark. It's an extremely odd place to be bitten, most poisonous bites occur on the extremities of a body. I'll be interested to see how they explain why the aliens lose their skin. As someone has already mentioned, leaving little calling cards to warn your prey/enemy doesn't seem to be a very effective strategy. I'm trying to remember how we know that the evil aliens are shapeshifters. I'd appreciate it if someone would refresh my memory on that. Rosta and Jenlev, I'm referring back to the conspiracy theory we've been hatching about what happened between the time Harding dies, and Max shows up at the crashdown. Like Rosta said, we have no clues as to what Max did to the body, I favor him changing its molecular structure to a plant or chair. The more pedestrian the item, the better. As to why he has to run to the crashdown, maybe it's because Isabel has the jeep. But at this point, I'm pretty convinced the red handprint is Harding's handprint. At the end of S&B Harding puts his hand on Max's chest (same location as the red hand print) and says "they're among you now." I can't see the handprint in the promo until Max gets to the CD, but at the end of S&B, after the song credits, and during the "Stay tuned for scenes from the next all new Roswell" I can barely see a handprint as Max crosses the street, watch for the 71 degree sign, it's towards the top left of the screen. Rosta, I looked at the card rack. I can't tell for sure if it's empty, it might just not have many postcards on it. I obviously have way too much time on my hands… SF Aeneas, great post. I'm assuming from your name that you're a big Dido fan. By ROStaFEHRian 10-04-2000, 11:44 AM quote:Originally posted by sidera: Go dude indeed! I was wondering about that. invesigation of a possible chemical plany site? and why is it that we only hear about these radiation tests now? how come no one knows about the chemical plant yet. sounds kinda fishy to me. Hi Sidera, Be afraid. Be very afraid. Chemical plant. Fertilizer. Corn. Beans. Pods. There have been a lot of plant and plant embryo motifs. Better living through chemistry. Better hybridization, transgenics, etc. Very sci-fi, but also very real and in-the-news. Dont' know what it really means, but one of the symbols appears on Tess' ring. It could be from any number of writing/symbol systems that I can think of, but one interpretation is a native american plant motif seen on some baskets and textiles. You can see clearly when she is on her cell phone talking to Max just before he enters the cyclotron. By ROStaFEHRian 10-04-2000, 12:13 PM SF, hi I just saw your post when I reloaded the page. I have to run now, but quick comments Agree about the irregular appearing star. Could it be a wound and brand mark with a rectagular center-piece? I agree about the anticoagulant etiology of the blood coming out of the orifices. That was my thought, too, altho' I did't make the association with venom at the time. The clear picture of Max next to the empty card stand by the entrance to the cafe is in a promo screen cap and I can't find where they have been moved to. I can't seem to find it on the images pages. Max turning Edsedo into a plant. there are 2 scenes in S&B where we see Edsedo standing in front of a plant with the leaves appearing to sprout out around him Great points SF, as ususal. Thank you for the cyclotron basics Anaeas. I knew it was very wrong but I could not articulate why. Love your name, too. More on that later. Gotta run. Rosta By redhawk 10-04-2000, 01:03 PM Thanks for the cadmium explanation, iamanalien. LSS - I like the Critics Corner. Aha... Aeneas, thanks for the post on the cyclotron. I was so hoping someone here knew how they actually worked. I just knew something wasn't right about all that. Rosta - I have to go look at my tape again. Was the symbol on her ring anything like the symbols in the promo. or I'll have to check it out. By virgogurl 10-04-2000, 02:45 PM Hey all!! OK, so i scanned the 4 pages and no one mentioned this, so i thought i should bring it up. Or maybe i should take it to the importance of Liz Mythology thread, but i wasnt sure. Anyhoo.... Does anyone find it wierd that all the problems and the "Skins" only started to appear once Liz returned? I mean, Max said himself "Its been three months and nothing has happened." I think its just a tad wierd that days after Liz shows up, the skins are appearing, and Nasedo has been killed. COINCIDENCE? I THINK NOT!! LOL. So, i was just thinking about what someone said (I'm sorry i forgot who it is!) about Tess and Max's marriage being set to make peace between to planets. Now, the skins showing themselves right when Liz got back would make perfect sense, because Liz is the person who is interrupting the "destiny" of these two people. And in some way i think the skins are after Liz to protect Max and Tess's marriage. If anyone has anything to add...or if you agree or disagree with my theory...please tell me! Jessica By HollyLou 10-04-2000, 02:50 PM There were two comments I found strange that I wanted to point out.Did anyone find Maria's remark about hoping Nasedo used birth control when he was "diddling" the Congresswoman strange? I know there has been a lot of speculation about Nasedo maybe having had an affair with Sheila Hubble and Liz being the result of that union.Also, when Liz had finished telling Max that NMSU in Las Cruces would be the place to look for the bones, she acts likes she's introducing herself to Max by telling him she's not a dork, just very interested in science. Why in the world would Max think she was a dork and of course he knows of her interest in science! Is this really Liz? Sure was a big jump from when she was talking about working for her hero the Congresswoman to helping Max rifle through her files. HLA By Kate6058 10-04-2000, 03:45 PM quote:Originally posted by virgogurl: Now, the skins showing themselves right when Liz got back would make perfect sense, because Liz is the person who is interrupting the "destiny" of these two people. And in some way i think the skins are after Liz to protect Max and Tess's marriage. Or maybe it's that, in the world of Max's people and the skins, when Max and Tess are together and not distracted, there is some kind of balance, something normal... but when Liz shows up and distracts Max (even though he's really distracted in his mind by her the whole time, maybe it's only the physical stuff they can see), everything is thrown off balance. As much as I don't want it to be, maybe Liz's physical presence in Max's life really is what brings on the evil aliens. Once they sense that there is tension in the ranks, they attack. Perhaps "the royal four" work like a puzzle or something... if one piece is put in wrong, it's chaos. I know people have been speculating about this all along, obviously, but maybe it's not only that Max and Tess must be together, but that Max can't even be alone. As long as he and Tess are near each other, they might be creating the illusion that they are "together" for the people of their planet and for the evil skins. But there's something about Liz that throws everything off. Maria and Alex haven't done that, but now Liz is back in the picture and everything is messed up again. hmmm... you might be on to something vigogurl! By Palomino 10-04-2000, 04:41 PM I know I said this early on, but I couldn't help mentioning it again. I don't think the "Cadmium X" is a result of Michael's powers. 1. No one says it. The podsters and humans only assume it, but they are guessing. 2. When Nasedo is told about it on the corpse, his response is to kill all humans that know about it - he does not say that Michael did it, only that Michael would be in danger if it were found out. 3. If Michael did do it, he achieved nuclear fusion! Sorry, Roswell makes tons of inexcusable errors, but that is too much. Changing molecules is one thing, changing atoms is another. Unacceptable. 4. This would still not explain the melting of the bones. 5. Apparently not all the bodies of the murder victims had this abnormality. The point is: What if the skeletons were abnormal because the beings were abnormal? EVIL ALIENS! 1. This would explain why not all the victims had "Cd X". Not every one that was killed was an EA. 2. Harding knew if the skeleton were found to have it, the Feds would not realize the victims were aliens and that EA's had it. They would assume that Michael had to be the cause, thus putting him in danger. He just never said so to the others in the Crash Down. Not unusual for him to withhold info. 3. If Pierce had it, this would make my Pierce-was-an-evil-alien theory correct 4. This may help to ID the evil aliens. Not just the evil within, but now the cadmium within. By Kate6058 10-04-2000, 04:46 PM quote:Originally posted by HollyLou: Also, when Liz had finished telling Max that NMSU in Las Cruces would be the place to look for the bones, she acts likes she's introducing herself to Max by telling him she's not a dork, just very interested in science. Why in the world would Max think she was a dork and of course he knows of her interest in science! Is this really Liz? Sure was a big jump from when she was talking about working for her hero the Congresswoman to helping Max rifle through her files.[/list] I actually liked this part... I thought it was very reminiscent of The Morning After in the eraser room scene. It was a little strange that she said that, but there are so many inconsistencies in this ep that at this point we just have to forget about them and take them for what they are. By jenlev 10-04-2000, 04:46 PM hi there, sf and rosta: i love the idea of max morphing nasedo into a chair or a plant... and it does fit with rosta's warning about pods and plants... did you all see the item in the news about that "artist" (and i use the term loosely as it was what he was described as) who hired a lab to produce a rabbit with jelly fish 'essense' so the poor thing glows in the dark. it seems he wanted it for some 'display', and never mind the ethics of the action... anyway, the point being that the tendancy in our culture to compartmentalize plant and animal life may bias our society to the potential interactions between the species. it's my understanding that most ancient cultures did not see such a clear division between plants and animals; and often interpreted the growth of plants to indicate personality etc. correct me if i'm off base please. also, about the handprint on max's chest... i couldn't see that it was NOT there at the end of the episode so i'm guessing that nasedo put it there when he fell in the window? hollylou: i actually laughed my butt off when maria made the birth control comment to nasedo... it was about time that someone stood toe to toe (or whatever he had) with him on both a serious and sarcastic level. and yes, i'm also wondering about shiela hubble's involvement... maybe she was also part of "the ever burgening i know an alien club" as nasedo put it. as far as liz's comment about not being a dork... i felt that spoke to the level of awkwardness that had developed between the charactors at that point? jenlev By Melodious1 10-04-2000, 05:20 PM Here's the four square alien symbol (from the second season 2 promo, the "Exposed, Hunted, Trapped" promo) that I think looks very similar to the window on Michael's apartment door. What could this mean? All four podsters were in Mike's apartment when I noticed the symbol on Michael's door - I presume it represents them in some way. image is from Crashdown Melodious By ssv 10-04-2000, 05:24 PM I think the season is back and everything has to start up again(evil aliens).I really don't think it has anything to do with Liz. By Qfanny 10-04-2000, 05:29 PM quote:Originally posted by Palomino: I know I said this early on, but I couldn't help mentioning it again. I don't think the "Cadmium X" is a result of Michael's powers. 1. No one says it. The podsters and humans only assume it, but they are guessing. 2. When Nasedo is told about it on the corpse, his response is to kill all humans that know about it - he does not say that Michael did it, only that Michael would be in danger if it were found out. 3. If Michael did do it, he achieved nuclear fusion! Sorry, Roswell makes tons of inexcusable errors, but that is too much. Changing molecules is one thing, changing atoms is another. Unacceptable. 4. This would still not explain the melting of the bones. 5. Apparently not all the bodies of the murder victims had this abnormality. The point is: What if the skeletons were abnormal because the beings were abnormal? EVIL ALIENS! 1. This would explain why not all the victims had "Cd X". Not every one that was killed was an EA. 2. Harding knew if the skeleton were found to have it, the Feds would not realize the victims were aliens and that EA's had it. They would assume that Michael had to be the cause, thus putting him in danger. He just never said so to the others in the Crash Down. Not unusual for him to withhold info. 3. If Pierce had it, this would make my Pierce-was-an-evil-alien theory correct 4. This may help to ID the evil aliens. Not just the evil within, but now the cadmium within. Palomino: What are your thoughts on the skin Michael found? Is it Pierce's (that would seem strange since Max, Michael and Valenti burned the body. So why would Michael find a skin in the exact same area as the body? Is it plausible that an EA found the body, or was looking for the body? If so, why? To see if its comrade was hurt? I sort of didn't pay attention to the post on how some snakes hunt. I forget what species, but some snakes hunt be "heat seeking". We know that the silver iron-on produces high heat. Could the Pierce body be radiating a special heat that only a Skin would recognize. Also, I was troubled with Max's opening dialog he made. He refered to Nasedo as a shapeshifter that can take on any human form. What about the wall he became? (((Gee- I answered my own question, Max never knew that Pierce was in the pod chamber blended into the wall in MttM.)))) I am not convinced that Nasedo is a good guy, why doesn't he come clean with the podsters. Why doesn't he tell them what to look for??? They are all in the dark about the EA. If he's a protector, why not disclose. Does he need an order from Max? By Qfanny 10-04-2000, 05:32 PM quote:Originally posted by Melodious1: Here's the four square alien symbol (from the second season 2 promo, the "Exposed, Hunted, Trapped" promo) that I think looks [b]very similar to the window on Michael's apartment door. What could this mean? All four podsters were in Mike's apartment when I noticed the symbol on Michael's door - I presume it represents them in some way. image is from Crashdown Melodious No infringement intended on the above screencap! Melodious1. I have thought since I first saw it that the "black cross" could be five squares all connected. 4+1. The center square or middle of the cross is Liz, somehow, she is connected to the podsters! I find it strange too that the Skins didn't appear until Liz showed up. I wonder why? By Melodious1 10-04-2000, 05:48 PM This could be nothing, but I just thought of something Max said in LN, which (concerning an event in S&B) got me thinking: quote:from Leaving Normal MAX: Liz, when I saved you, it was because you were shot, and there was a bullet in you. Something was happening to you that wasn't supposed to happen. It was before your time. But I can't just heal people. I'm not God. Max says he can heal Liz because "something was happening" to her "that wasn't supposed to happen", presumedly, he can't heal Claudia, because what was happening to her *was* supposed to happen, it was just 'her time.' Granted, I should probably take what Max says in LN with a grain of salt (he had no idea what he was and probably only a vague idea of what his limitations were/are). But, I'd think what happened to Harding (attacked by Skins) wasn't supposed to happen either. Yet Max couldn't heal him. Just like he couldn't heal Claudia (that's if he tried in the first place, he might not have been trying to heal her at all LN). I realize that I probably shouldn't be comparing the scenario in LN with S&B, Harding is (was) an alien shapeshifter and Claudia was a human (as far as we know) who had a stroke. Two very different subjects. Yet I find it odd that Max couldn't heal either of them (it seems kind of symbolical to me in a way). However, he might have not been able to heal Claudia simply because it was 'her time' and couldn't heal Harding because it was WHO he was attacked by (Skins) - both situations could merely show the limitations of Max's (healing) abilities. I don't know, I just thought I'd throw it out to y'all and see what you think. Melodious By Palomino 10-04-2000, 06:03 PM Qfanny : To answer your questions: 1. The skins left behind. Possibilities ... a. I think they may have been left to instill fear in the good aliens. If the evil ones are really evil, they will enjoy terrorizing their victims, and will take pleasure in torturing the good guys - just like Pierce(evil alien). If shedding is a regular occurance(sp), maybe the hand skin being left has a particular cultural meaning, like slapping your enemy's face with gloves, or laying down the gauntlet. b. Odd that both times the pieces were of hands, like gloves being removed. It makes me wonder if they also have so power eminating from their hands. SSers do, and from what Harding said, so do future humans. What if most highly developed species evolve powers for which the hand is the conduit? Maybe the EA's have a weekness that their skin is damaged when they use their powers, and it causes shedding? As to what powers they used prior to the shedding - we don't know what powers(if any) they have. 2. Harding in the pod chamber. I am not convinced he SSed in there fron a wall to Harding. The special effects were different from the usual shifting of T-t or Nasedo. It looked more like he was teleporting in. Maybe the chamber was monitored? I don't think he spent the whole night there waiting for them. If he knew they were going to go there, why didn't he stop Tess before she went? His anger also seemed fresh - like he had just found out. Anyhow, you are right, even if he had taken non-human form, Max did not know it. By Melodious1 10-04-2000, 06:18 PM quote:Originally posted by Qfanny: Melodious1. I have thought since I first saw it that the "black cross" could be five squares all connected. 4+1. The center square or middle of the cross is Liz, somehow, she is connected to the podsters! Or possibly the black cross itself might represent Liz and the squares the podsters (the "cross" -most important piece- holding together the "squares"). I posted something on the Liz Mythology thread which sort of touches on the numbers issue. Possibly the EA are hunting FIVE individuals, not FOUR. Due to the fact there are five pie slices on these (assumed) 'EA tracking devices'. However, the Podians themselves are only 'guarding' the ROYAL FOUR. In theory, they don't realize Liz - the fifth piece - is also part of the "destiny", but the EA do? quote:I find it strange too that the Skins didn't appear until Liz showed up. I wonder why? That is rather odd (and/or convenient). Almost as if they were *waiting* for that fifth pie slice? When she appeared, their 'trackers' went nutso, hence it was time to make themselves known? Melodious By Palomino 10-04-2000, 06:19 PM Melodious1 : About Max being unable to heal GC and Harding: Liz and Kyle were healthy and had been injured for only seconds. Max was able to repare the damage, because although it was fatal, their bodies had not had time to shut down systems and prepare for death. eath was going to be sudden. GC was slowly dying and her systems were shutting down. The doctors knew she was dying for probably hours or more. This would include brain function, the cardiopulmanary system, perhaps her kidneys, etc. It was not a matter of sealing a wound in an otherwise healthy person. Harding had been missing for a day, and we don't know what was done to him or how long ago the damage occured. He may have been dying for 24 hours or 24 min. Whatever the damage was, it was to great or too far along for Max to fix. Maybe it is unfixable no matter what. Maybe Max is only programmed to heal humans - maybe he can't cure an extra-terrestrial. I know I kind of rambled, but does this make any sense? By Melodious1 10-04-2000, 06:33 PM quote:Originally posted by Palomino: I know I kind of rambled, but does this make any sense? It made perfect sense Palomino Thanks for the reply. I wonder if Harding was/is too far gone for the healing stones to work? It seemed he died at the end of S&B (but he seemingly was also dead in WR/Destiny). But you're right Palomino, death by Skins is a special circumstance. Completely different then being shot by a couple Feds. It would also make sense the "enemy aliens" would know a way to kill a Harding-type being, making 'revival' impossible (the EA would want them to STAY dead). However, could the healing stones might have worked on Claudia? Too bad they didn't know about them until Balance. I guess we'll never know. Melodious By LSS 10-04-2000, 06:35 PM Coming home this evening (damn, I even think of Roswell in traffic) I was struck by two things: 1) Isn't it ironic that Cadmium X is a after effect of the use of what was supposed to be an advanced HUMAN power? 2) Those of you who are into signs and Liz...did you notice the sign in the cafe window when Liz refuses to give Max any obvious encouragment in spite of the flashes? It is the standard cafe disclaimer..."We reserve the right to refuse...." [sniff--but it IS going to be alright Dreamers...you KNOW it is!] LSS P.S. Nemo, GraceKel, QFanny--now you've got ME looking for those blasted signs!!!! By Qfanny 10-04-2000, 07:03 PM quote:Originally posted by LSS: Coming home this evening (damn, I even think of Roswell in traffic) I was struck by two things: 1) Isn't it ironic that Cadmium X is a after effect of the use of what was supposed to be an advanced HUMAN power? 2) Those of you who are into signs and Liz...did you notice the sign in the cafe window when Liz refuses to give Max any obvious encouragment in spite of the flashes? It is the standard cafe disclaimer..."We reserve the right to refuse...." [sniff--but it IS going to be alright Dreamers...you KNOW it is!] LSS P.S. Nemo, GraceKel, QFanny--now you've got ME looking for those blasted signs!!!! LSS: Do you know what ever happen to the Ron Moore email interview. I thought Ron Moore's addition to the writers would explain away these inconstitancies, particulary with alien powers. The only thing I can think of is that Nasedo lied to the humans. His inconsistantcy is the only thing consisant about his character: (Good grief, the theory of two shapeshifters proves that.) In regards to two, I will have to go watch the eppy again. See crashdown for Feb 2001 party updates--there's no info yet, but the message is there. By Qfanny 10-04-2000, 07:26 PM Read this scene: PIERCE: I needed to see you. WHITAKER: Well, you should have thought of that before you publicly humiliated me on tv. PIERCE: Don't let politics come between us. WHITAKER: Politics is the reason you slept with me to begin with. PIERCE: Well, maybe at first. It's more than that now. You showed me a side of myself...I didn't know existed. ________________________ I think there is a double meaning here!!!! any thoughts? By LSS 10-04-2000, 08: 10 PM Qfanny: I'm not sure what you mean by "double meaning" here. What I did notice in this eppy is the heavy emphasis on Harding's/Pierce's sexuality: 1) the "diddling" reference (with its allusion to his growing fondness of the congresswoman) 2) Maria's comment that for a 30 something guy he "rocked" (this is when he was in Pierce form) 3) The evening scene in the congresswoman's office with Liz as witness (with her comment to Max that the congresswoman wouldn't be coming back soon) 4) Max's snide remark as to whether Harding "enjoyed" himself (at which Harding fires back a snide remark about Max and Tess) In other words, I saw the dialogue you mentioned as part of a larger (and quite intentional) emphasis on Harding's sexual activities. BTW: This is the second time we've seen this (remember Max/Nesedo kissing Liz). Are you referring to this "sexual" element as the part that Nesedo is referring to here? Or are you seeing something deeper in that comment? LSS P.S. You know, I'm getting to really like Harding's dry humor. If he really can't be revived, I'll be sorry to see him go. By Qfanny 10-04-2000, 08:27 PM LSS: We have several references to politics in this episode. First, we learn enough about Max's people to know that they they governed by monarchy. Second, many of us speculate that Pierce (not Piercedo) was an evil alien. Now let's add to our speculations, Whitaker seems to be highly suspicious of the test results and seemed to know that something was happening when Max broke into the cyclotron. (Go superman!) She seems intelligent, but pretty clueless on this like carbon dating (which most high schoolers would know about.) Some already see her as an EA.... I think it's really too early to tell. But-- if politics were involved in Pierce's and Vanessa first sexual encounter, what kind of politics would it be? The FBI special unit is deeply hidden, buried. Even the President was on a need to know bases! And once you get in, there is no out. I don't think Pierce would have just told Whitaker about him being a special agent that looks for alien hunters. But the CNN clip shows that Whitaker has possible, as much knowledge about the "silver iron-on" as Pierce. Why? It would be out of character for Pierce to trust her with this information. I really think that there is a BIG FORESHADOWING here that the politics that brought them together, was extratehristial! I know you like more evidence than that, which is why I was ambigious before, I really couldn't phrase what I was thinking. Can this bone walk? (Gee -- that pun was really not intended!) By LSS 10-04-2000, 08:39 PM Since it is Piercedo whom you are quoting (and not Pierce), how does politics fit? Are you saying that in the guise of Pierce, Nesedo got to play politics and liked it? Or are you saying that in the guise of Pierce, Nesedo was privy to extraterrestrial information (aka Skin communications, plans, etc.). I think you've lost me. Help? LSS By Qfanny 10-04-2000, 08:47 PM WHITAKER: Politics is the reason you slept with me to begin with. The tape recorded conversation Vanessa plays for the sheriff implies the sexual relationship started with the "real" Pierce. Vanessa refers to Pierce (FBI agent Daniel Pierce). Why would Pierce need to sleep with Vanessa for political reasons? The FBI special unit is a closely guarded secret! The only reason (operating under the guise Pierce is an evil alien) I can think of is Vanessa is too an alien or just knows something about aliens! Does that help? By Lorrilei1960 10-04-2000, 09:59 PM Someone has probably already mentioned this... (and it probably more correctly belongs on the R&I thread) but anyway... Having the EAs be descendant or related to the reptile family makes sense in the context of the whole Knights/Christianity/Max as Christ figure/Quest motif... the snake/serpent as "Satan" and the enemy of mankind. I know I am WAY out of my league on the whole story telling/mythology thing... but it just sort of jumped out at me By shapeshifter 10-04-2000, 10:06 PM quote:Originally posted by LSS: Since it is Piercedo whom you are quoting (and not Pierce), how does politics fit? Are you saying that in the guise of Pierce, Nesedo got to play politics and liked it? Or are you saying that in the guise of Pierce, Nesedo was privy to extraterrestrial information (aka Skin communications, plans, etc.). I think you've lost me. Help? LSS I think Qfanny is referring to the original Pierce's contact with the Congresswoman being somehow motivated by politics. Actually, I think he just claimed to be interested in currying her favor for his project when in reality he was investigating her knowledge in his quest for the orbs. By the way, the original Pierce's evilness seems to have become resident in the Congresswoman--perhaps since his death? Maybe if P was an evil alien his essence is now in Whitaker? OT note: While Maxcedo was more of a baddy than Max, Piercedo was clearly more loveable than Pierce. O, and here's a thought: If the Congresswoman is 3 months pg, who would know whose baby it is? By Lorrilei1960 10-04-2000, 10: 10 PM quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter: OT note: While Maxcedo was more of a baddy than Max, Piercedo was clearly more loveable than Pierce. Definitely!!! By amx 10-04-2000, 10:36 PM Just popping in - I don't have much to add since I haven't seen this ep yet (grumble grumble) and won't until my Rosangel sends her tapes to Australia! Anyway, someone raised the issue of radiocarbon dating and accuracy - I'm sorry but I can't recall whom it was. Whilst it is generally true that a sample dating from the 1950s would return a result that the lab would describe as 'essentially modern' (yeah, not very informative - we argue with the lab we use for dating about this on a regular basis), this isn't the best that they can do. Routinely, if asked, most radiocarbon labs can date samples from the last 100 years or so to within 10 years, which can be improved by correct pre-treatment of the sample to less than a 5 year total potential error. Errors of around 50 years are common on samples that are 10,000 to 20,000 years old (the age range I usually deal with). Since radiocarbon determinations are generally for archaeological purposes, soemthing dating to the 1950s would hardly be worth dating - the cost is high and documentary sources would likely give a better result anyway. Plus, the investigating officer's thought is that the body represents a modern homicide - whether by human or alien hand. The question arises for me - why would you radiocarbon date in these circumstances? What would it tell you? No, this is just too convenient a plot device for me! However, getting back to the principal question, precise dates CAN be obtained with large samples (a whole skeleton would yield more than adequate sample!) and calibration charts. In the southern (arid) portions of the USA such precise dating is possible courtesy of the Bristle Cone pine. These trees live for at least 4000 years and have formed the basis for a very accurate radiocarbon calibration curve - and of course the closer you are to the source of the calibrating material, the more directly it can be applied (I hasten to note that we use the Bristle Cone Pine calibration curve here in Australia even - so it does have a utility beyond the USA). A series of wood samples that have been dated absolutely by dendrochronology were subject to radiocarbon age determination resulting in the derivation of a standard error sufficiently low that (with a large sample) accuracies of +/- 1 calendar year have been obtained. In an inland environment, such as Roswell, the marine resevoir effect would not be material, hence ages closer to the 'true' age of the sample would be returned without a great deal of effort. What bothers me about the whole radiocarbon dating scenario is this - how on Earth did Max know or calculate and then 'impregnate' (for want of a better word) the skeleton with the correct ratio of C12 to C14 to return the precise date he wanted! Since every calibration chart available expresses every measurement with the maximum standard error, so you cannot just pick off the 'correct' C12/C14 ratio from the curve and hope to hit the figure that will return the date you want. Finally, I must say this. Really Roswell writers, have some respect for those of us who deal with radiocarbon determinations every day and know how variable the returned date is even from a set of matched samples from the same point in an archaeological excavation profile! A uniform C14 result across a skeleton (if anyone bothered to test various portions rather than taking a pooled sample) would ring more alarm bells than it silenced. Since virtually no radiocarbon lab worth its accreditation would be happy to release a date on the basis of a single sample where there was a possibility of making multiple age determinations, I just don't see how any uniformity might be missed. Every sample I submit requires that I indicate whether additional material is available and if so, how much. Responsible labs want to do the best that they can, and so request more and/or better samples if they feel the need. In the case of an essentially modern skeleton (you also have to give an estimate of the age you think the sample might be when submitting - since older samples require more pre-treatment) being presented, I am sure the lab would request material for more than one determination. Especially since there is no indication of limiting factors, such as the skeleton being of Native American origin, that would dictate the smallest possible sample being used. So, Ros-writers, don't use current science if you aren't prepared for its real, though perhaps unintended in the context of the plot, consequences. Well, after that little rant, I think I'll slip back into lurk mode. amx By shapeshifter 10-04-2000, 10:42 PM amx, thanks for the possibility of carbon dating being within 10 years accuracy. I was just skimming the General S&B thread and thought: Can Nasedo come back as a Mommogram? You know, kind of a comic ghost figure? Like My Mother the Car? And can he be Maxcedo or Pierce in his unincorporated body? Okay. goodnight all, now. By amx 10-04-2000, 10:45 PM Ok, I lied. A second point - on the determining the identity of the skeleton. Forget dental records - if you are going high tech, why not do a little DNA profiling. Sufficient DNA can be extracted from bone (this was the topic of my honours thesis in archaeology) courtesy of the osteoblasts, that a match with known profiles can be made. Whilst there is the logical problem of choosing against whom to make the match, the process is relatively straightforward these days. I wonder if this might be being held in reserve by the writers - it would certainly form an interesting link up when "Pierce" is finally found to be missing. amx By Lorrilei1960 10-04-2000, 11:02 PM quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter: amx, thanks for the possibility of carbon dating being within 10 years accuracy. I was just skimming the General S&B thread and thought: Can Nasedo come back as a Mommogram? You know, kind of a comic ghost figure? Like My Mother the Car? Okay. goodnight all, now. Or maybe like Obiwan By amx 10-04-2000, 11:27 PM Yes, and his first line would be: "Use your 'energy source' Max" amx By bkwrm79-Stargazer 10-05-2000, 01:14 AM I'm still astonished at the insight on these SF threads! Someone had to start the Special Unit, even if it kept its lawful superiors in the dark. Perhaps Whitaker was in a key oversight committee or something like that, or simply had the right connections. That could also partially explain Valenti's acquiesence to her taking a role in his investigation. Another thought I haven't seen anywhere- Nacedo/Pierce seemed quite adept at manipulating Whitaker, cracking jokes, appearing human. So why does Nacedo appear so ruthless and talk about killing everyone who knows the secret, when he must guess how Max and the others will feel? Because he wants Max to order him not to do it! He wants Max to get used to giving orders and he wants the rest of the group (particularly Michael) to see him meekly accepting orders from Max. Nacedo is preparing Max to lead and the others to accept Max as their leader. Does this theory make sense? By amx 10-05-2000, 01:18 AM bkwrm - good point. One can only lead when there are others willing and able to follow! amx By Qfanny 10-05-2000, 04:04 AM quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter: amx, thanks for the possibility of carbon dating being within 10 years accuracy. I was just skimming the General S&B thread and thought: Can Nasedo come back as a Mommogram? You know, kind of a comic ghost figure? Like My Mother the Car? And can he be Maxcedo or Pierce in his unincorporated body? Okay. goodnight all, now. What, you mean like Obi-wan Kenobi? Use the force Max! Man, you could really go off on too many parallels there. By Palomino 10-05-2000, 07:11 AM I think that Nasedo was dead before Max tried to heal him, but wouldn't it be cool if Max had made a "connection" with him before he died? Maybe he is now carrying around Nasedo's essence, and Nasedo will pop up in his head at wierd moments. "Go for the chicken and mashed potatoes, Max." "I wanted a burger and fries." "As you wish, Burger King" It could get pretty embarassing for Max to walk around seemingly talking to himself, but it might have come in handy at times. Too bad Max didn't make the connection and get info from him. Tic-tac better hurry back! By MyrnaLynne 10-05-2000, 09:48 AM I have always been meaning to stop by these science threads, but the overwhelming amount of 'weird science' (and bad science) was the greatest weakness of this new season and I had to come by. (It was also a weakness last season - the medical stuff in White Room and in Blood Brothers - girl blood? boy blood? - was totally laughable.) As I posted over at that GistTV thing, Star Trek can get away with more scientific mumbo jumbo because it is in space and in the far future. Roswell is based in here and now and reality, and they need to try to follow the laws of physics,etc. (In fact, one of the worst moments of Star Trek films was when Kirk fell off that mountain and Spock grabbed his leg and stopped short his fall - at that velocity, he would've been holding Kirk's leg and Kirk would've been on the ground dead.) They need somebody on their writing staff with a rudimentary knowledge or science and medicine - or at least some consultants so the mumbo jumbo is at least plausible and not laughable! Even my daughter (who is studying advanced physics this year btw) rolled her eyes at Max surviving a zapping inside a cyclotron and also rolled her eyes at the term 'mind warp' - sounds like a dance from "Rocky Horror" or something ("Let's do the mind warp again!") It's been established that the human/alien hybrids have a mostly human physiology (except for the mysterious Vulcan-like green plant cells in their blood, which I always found very bogus). So being zapped inside a cyclotron does not sound like something healthy (or survivable) for Max Evans! He has alien superpowers, but he is NOT Superman! (He is way cuter than Superman, however.) Interesting information on radiocarbon dating! Since they poured gasoline on Pierce's body and torched it, there would be carbon from the combustion deposited on the bones, probably. And also - bones don't melt? When you cremate somebody, granted there are little bony chunks and cinders in there, but they seem pretty ground up - ewww - or do bones truly not melt, and they have to grind up the remains after cremation?! I've never heard that they do that. Any undertaker Roswell fans out there to clarify? And I found Whittaker's stupidity at never having heard of carbon dating unrealistic also. But then, how realistic is it for a Congresswoman to get involved in police business also? And interesting that the alien killing power deposits this cadmiumX all over the entire skeleton of the victim. I wondered too if Max healing Liz and Kyle would leave some little alien trace behind. My take on the silver handprint killing was that the alien emitted some sort of electromagnetic pulse that simply interrupted the functioning of the heart and stopped their victim's heart. Much more energy-efficient that scrambling and cooking up their entire internal organs. Ewww. I don't think Max induced the flash in Liz when he touched her arm - I mean not consciously or voluntarily. There is just a bond between them, and touching her activated it and gave her a flash. (sigh! I know the feeling, believe me!) Also, Nasedo supposedly does NOT have a human physiology or emotions - but I guess he enjoyed kissing Liz so much as Evil Max, he decided to explore further with the foul temptress Congresswoman. So when he assumes human form, I guess, as Data put it, he becomes 'fully functional' - but somehow I don't think he'd have to worry about birthcontrol, as Maria mentioned! Oh, I have ALWAYS believed sex with a proper alien/human hybrid guy was not only possible but entirely likely to happen at any moment! LOL! (and there was a lot of debate whether it already happened in Sexual Healing, but I side with the almost but not quite crowd). I will truly miss Nasedo - he had a wonderful zest for his mission and a great sense of humor. He just was way too into killing as a solution to every problem. Killing and then running. Not a great lifestyle! I like the idea that his actions in this show were to train Max to leadership. I also thought Tess's 'Ward Cleaver' line was a total anachronism and stuck out - as if Nasedo would let Tess waste her time watching Nick and Nite reruns or whatever! (But then again, he wasn't home very much, with all that killing and running). A line that would work on Buffy but not on Roswell. We are willing to suspend a great deal of disbelief to enjoy this show, but not the basic laws of science and nature! By redhawk 10-05-2000, 03:31 PM amx - thank you! I just learned something new today. Lorrilei - I had that same thought about the skins. How they refer back to "evil" snakes which of course makes me think of the snake aka Satan in the garden of Eden. I posted this on the Liz Mythology thread, but it probably should be here. Melodious - Thanks for pointing that out. Besides the new windows in the door, the windows glow yellow and the door appears dark blue. Wasn't it a solid brown door originally? The new door. (Thanks provence for the wonderful screen caps. ) Screen cap of one of the symbols in the original promos for the second season. Pic taken from one of Vidiot's promos. The glowing four squares also appear in the title twice. So, hmmm..., I'm not sure what this all means. The modern 4 square symbol appears in the promos along side the original 4 square symbol. Do they mean the same thing? I don't think so, but I have yet to figure out what the modern one means. Hmm. Lots of hmm...s after that ep. Also, on the subject of Michael's door. When the sheriff and VW come to arrest him the second time, he has a different front door altogether. Eventhough earlier in this same episode the blue door with 4 yellow square windows appears. #1- Why change the original door from last season to include the 4 square window? #2- Why change the door again in this same episode to be a door with a large window and shade over it? The blue 4square door seems to face the original hallway from last season, but the large window shaded door appears to be on the outside of the building. Eventhough there is a door and building behind the sheriff and VW, there is a light next to the opposite door like it is out in the elements and not in a hallway. Did that make sense? I'm having a hard time being clear lately. Any thoughts? By Palomino 10-05-2000, 04:43 PM MYRNALYNNE : A very quick explaination of Liz's remark that "They can tell male from female blood". Liz, being a bio student and knowing that Max was suspect, was being careful. She knew that if anyone got hold of Max's blood, they would try to determine his alien/human status by looking at his DNA. Max's white blood cells would have had the X and Y chromosomes of a male, while a female donor would have had two X chromosomes. If the FBI had gotten hold of Liz's blood and tested it, they would have known it wasn't Max's, and would have been more suspicious. What seemed like a mistake (and actually may have been one , was actually sound reasoning of a good bio student looking out for her alien boyfriend. By Leneba 10-05-2000, 07:13 PM As I watched Skin and Bones for the third time, I was struck by several scenes: When Liz begins to tell Max about her job interview, she mentions it as this incredible opportunity which unexpectedly came up. Since Vanessa (that's her name, right?) knew about Pierce going to Roswell and the possible connections with the Sheriff, wouldn't she also know the whole mysterious story of the blood and bullet hole on the uniform of a certain Roswell resident? Whether she's an EA or just an overzealous alien hunter, it would be in her best interests to keep close tabs on Liz. I don't think Liz's new position is simply coincidence. Michael was watched, but not attacked as he stood on the edge of the crime scene investigation. Maybe this was because the creature watching him was unsure if he was one of the alien hybrids (just as Nasedo, the FBI and Valenti were reluctant to do anything concrete without more information). You wouldn't want to draw unnesessary attention to yourself by killing an ordinary, inconsequential human. Then did you notice the intent, feral look that Vanessa gave Michael when the Sheriff arrested him? If she's an EA, then I think she was the one who was watching him in the desert. His arrest confirmed for her that he was more than just a casual observer of the crime scene. In the final scene, when there is a tapping on Max's window, it seems to me like someone else is doing the tapping and that Edsedo is thrust towards Max's window by perhaps the same person. Those confident, even taps were not the sort of noises that a desperate, dying individual would make. Also, wouldn't he be right there, slumped at the window, too weak to step back should the wrong person come to the window? I really think Edsedo was delivered there by his murderer. Wisters mentioned that a true predator would never reveal itself to it's prey. True under most circumstances, especially when the goal is a meal (boxed lunch, anyone?) However, some intelligent mammals are known to play with potential prey. My cats do it with beetles and I know that otters do it too (or is that sea lions?). There are probably others as well. Add some sentient maliciousness in there and you've got a clear message: I am powerful enough to kill your protector. I know who you are and where you live. You are vulnerable. Those close to you are vulnerable. As far as Nasedo dying goes, I was under the impression that the mortal blow was delivered via the strange pentagon items that the EAs carry with them. I envision the device being slapped on his chest and emitting a sudden charge. Hence the vaguely pentagonal burn. Perhaps they are the antithesis of the healing stones and/or Max's healing hands. Maybe they negate the possibility of any healing taking place, whether the stones are used or not. Was Max unable to heal Nasedo because of the type of wound he recieved, or was there also the compontent of not being able to connect with Nasedo? When Liz connected with Maxedo, there was just a grey void. I suspect the reason that she was able to connect with him at all had to do with the shape he was wearing. I think someone mentioned earlier that maybe Max can only heal humans. If the core Nasedo is just a blank slate with a mission, and he's dependent on whom he morphs into to make a "whole" being, then trying to connect with his soul or true self would be difficult at best. (Does anyone else think it odd that he returned to the Ed Harding body instead of his 'true' alien form when he was healed with the stones in Destiny? Maybe that was simply a case of avoiding some cheesy special effects...I don't know.) It seems to me that he takes on a bit of the personality of the person he happens to resemble at the time. What would Nasedo be like in his raw, natural form? I mean personality-wise or "essence"-wise, not physically. Is Nasedo a different sort of alien than the podsters former selves? I tend to think yes, but then I recall Momogram saying something like, "I take this form which is familiar to you...". So are all full aliens capable of shape-shifting? Indeed, Michael changing his fingerprints is a mini-shape-shifting. Would full-blooded aliens be incapable of "connecting" with humans? Is this part of the reason why Max and the others have been hybridized? OK, I'll stop rambling now. By amx 10-05-2000, 07:30 PM Ok, continuing on the ‘everything you wanted to know about C14 dating, but were too afraid to ask’ theme. MyrnaLynne, Re: combustion and effects on radiocarbon dating. This was something I was alluding to when I mentioned pre-treatment of the samples. When a sample is submitted for radiocarbon determination, the lab assumes that it is contaminated by modern carbon. Something as simple as C14 rich rainwater filtering through the sediments in which the dateable material has been deposited can be sufficient to skew a dating result. For this reason, particularly where bone in concerned, extensive pre-treatment is undertaken which essentially involves dissolving the bone in various chemicals until only its crystalline components (primarily apatite) remain. The carbon ‘locked’ in the carbonates that form part of the apatite matrix is then used as the dating medium. Collagen and other organic carbon sources present within the bone are less frequently used as the C14/C12 source because of their inherent tendency to absorb contaminants and the simple fact that bacteria live off them (post-mortem) which again introduces extraneous carbon. So, carbon deposited on the bone as a consequence of burning would not be such a problem to an accurate and precise date. What you say regarding bone combustion is true. Bone burns only poorly, simply because there is little in it to oxidise (ie combine with oxygen), its components being very chemically stable. If you think about it, you don’t want highly reactive substances forming the main architecture of the body – no, stability (both physical and chemical) is the key. As bone burns, it undergoes a process known as calcination – that is, all the organic components are removed (primarily collagen) leaving behind the inorganic apatite base material. Since collagen is the ‘glue’ that holds bone together, the resulting calcined bone is friable and prone to collapse. So, a properly combusted skeleton would not look anything like a skeleton once lifted from the ground – it would fall into a myriad of pieces (becoming what archaeologists technically describe as ‘horrid little bits of bone’). However, it takes incredible temperatures to achieve this, since bone is designed to last – if it wasn’t, archaeology as I know it would be impossible! Simply dousing a body in petrol and setting it alight wouldn’t do it. Further, surrounding soft tissue serves to protect the bone further from burning – if you want to completely burn a body with petrol, you would need to de-flesh it first (a very messy task!) I think. amx By missy0029 10-05-2000, 07:32 PM quote:Originally posted by CharlieGirl: I have several questions. The coroner said, "Bone doesn't melt". I did not know that. What happens during cremation? Charlie[/B] I don't know if anyone has addressed this but i think...do hold that against me, it happens sometimes. That what they meant was bone doesn't mealt and fuse. When someone gets cremated the bones become so britle they break down and become ...well like ass. Or atleast thats my view on it. By amx 10-05-2000, 07:38 PM missy0029 - welcome! amx By LSS 10-05-2000, 07:43 PM Hey Qfanny: You mentioned before that some people think that Pierce was an alien. I must say that I have never really believed that. But I am curious. Have you heard any of these folk talk about the bones we see in this eppy? Harding made a big deal of how his bone structure was not human. And Max & Co. are hybrids (which explains their bone structure). But Pierce's bone structure is human. Soooooo--since I do not find any hint in the storyline that he was a hybrid then I am going to assume that those bones rule out his being an alien. I mean unless these aliens "possess" humans, that bone structure is hard to explain away. LSS By Qfanny 10-05-2000, 07:48 PM Leneba said In the final scene, when there is a tapping on Max's window, it seems to me like someone else is doing the tapping and that Edsedo is thrust towards Max's window by perhaps the same person. Those confident, even taps were not the sort of noises that a desperate, dying individual would make. Also, wouldn't he be right there, slumped at the window, too weak to step back should the wrong person come to the window? I really think Edsedo was delivered there by his murderer. Wisters mentioned that a true predator would never reveal itself to it's prey. True under most circumstances, especially when the goal is a meal (boxed lunch, anyone?) However, some intelligent mammals are known to play with potential prey. My cats do it with beetles and I know that otters do it too (or is that sea lions?). There are probably others as well. Add some sentient maliciousness in there and you've got a clear message: I am powerful enough to kill your protector. I know who you are and where you live. You are vulnerable. Those close to you are vulnerable. Qfanny replys I really like the idea of EA playing mind tricks here. I'm too tired right to to add to your theory, but I will sleep on it tonight! By Palomino 10-05-2000, 08:52 PM LSS : I am of the Pierce-was-an-evil-alien camp. I though maybe the "Cadmium X" will turn out to be not from Michael's powers, but from the original skeleton composition. 1. No one actually said that Michael did it. Even Nasedo did no say Michael's powers caused it. Everyone just assumed. Maybe it will be a surprise revelation later. To have it occur because of Michael just adds more bad science to already bad science, but that's never stopped the writers before. 2. The Mommogram said they would only know the enemy by the evil within. Maybe the bone structure in the EA has also been genetically engineered to fit in, but the chemical composition is slightly different. The podsters have a slightly different body chemistry and cells, but look human, skeleton included. 3. I'm not sure, but I think they said not all the victims had the Cd X. If it were put there by powers being used, wouldn't all the bodies be found to have it? The skeletal chemistry might prove Pierce was an evil alien rather than the skeletal structure prove he was human. But that's just MHO. By shapeshifter 10-05-2000, 10:02 PM quote:Originally posted by Leneba: As I watched Skin and Bones for the third time, I was struck by several scenes: ... Michael was watched, but not attacked as he stood on the edge of the crime scene investigation. ... I thought maybe he was tripped by an invisible foot (or tentacle?) when he fell on the ground. quote:... As far as Nasedo dying goes, I was under the impression that the mortal blow was delivered via the strange pentagon items that the EAs carry with them. I envision the device being slapped on his chest and emitting a sudden charge. Hence the vaguely pentagonal burn... Ewww, I think you are correct! Shades of Evil Pierce in WR! I also agree with whomever posted or thought out loud that Michael didn't actually kill Pierce--that something else finished him off. (Maybe Kyle with another gun? Maybe TicTac?) Michael's remorse sets us up to believe that possibility. By Lorrilei1960 10-05-2000, 10:08 PM quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter: I also agree with whomever posted or thought out loud that Michael didn't actually kill Pierce--that something else finished him off. (Maybe Kyle with another gun? Maybe TicTac?) Michael's remorse sets us up to believe that possibility. If this is so, then why would Valenti pronounce him dead after Michael blasted him? Was it honest error... or are you of the "Pierce is an EA" camp? By shapeshifter 10-05-2000, 10:22 PM Hi Lorrellei, Although I do like to sup with the EA Piercers on a fairly regular basis, I have not yet taken an oath Actually, I was thinking 1)that Kyle might have shot the fatal shot before he (Kyle) collapsed. Although we only saw him take one gun from the house, Valenti did refer to Pierce's weapon as "One of mine," implying there were more. or 2)TicTac was hiding out and assisted Michael's blast to give it fatal power. or 3)*yes* Pierce is/was an EA and somehow his essence now resides with Whitaker (Ewww...then Nasedo was doing it with Pierce? And since Nasedo was in Pierce's form... I am half asleep/dreaming here, obviously.) gnite all... By Nemo 10-05-2000, 10:32 PM quote:Originally posted by Merbird: The whole Sci/Fi aspect of Cadmium X. Well, I guess I have been a Trekkie for too many years, I just kind of accept a certain amount of unreal to be present, giving the hint of alien or out of this world things. Of course it’s not real….the whole program is not real. But then, that’s why I watch it, I want good Not Real entertainment. I enjoyed the whole Max in the accelerator thing….so long as I leave reality in the closet. The effects were good.... I really like this program. I have never had a TV show pull me in like this. Have any of you? Merbird, I like your style. I enjoyed the accelerator scene too. Even though a real accelerator would be operating under high vacuum, as pointed out by others. And removing a cover, besides taking lots of force, would have let the air in, which would have shut down the machine and might have damaged the high-vacuum pumps. And besides, for that kind of experiment you don't put the samples inside the ring but in an output beam line tangent to the main accelerator ring. So, as in other shows, there's lots of unreality to overlook here, and I do it cheerfully because I love this show so much. As you say, no other show has ever drawn me in like this one. By amx 10-05-2000, 11:02 PM Merbird/Nemo, I agree regarding the suspension of disbelief - almost no work of fiction could be enjoyed without this. However, I find my mind keeps nagging at me that 'something is rotten' when the act of faith being asked of me by the writers concerns something I deal with every day. Much though I try, I have no success in telling myself to 'get over it and enjoy the show'! I guess I just object to the cavalier use of current science, with seemingly little regard for its limitations and, more importantly, already inherent wonder! This is particularly irksome in our present world, when a little web surfing is all that would be needed for the writers to come to grips with the basics, be it cyclotrons or C14 dates. amx By Nemo 10-05-2000, 11:13 PM quote:Originally posted by Aeneas (p.4): If I were to take the evidence at face value then I'd have to conclude that Max has some amazing physical abilities.... 1) Strength - To lift the 3 ft dia. manhole cover on the Cyclotron would have required a force of 15,000 lbs. Cyclotrons require an internal vacuum to operate... 2) Ability to withstand a vacuum.... 3) Ability to withstand high energy particles.... Finally, for you real sparkys out there, did anyone notice the Tektronix 535 in the corner? Aeneas, I enjoyed your list. Thanks also for pointing out the old Tek oscilloscope -- it was fun to see one of those again. I was never a 'real sparky' (though one of them taught me electronics in the '50's), but I worked with the Tek 500 series in college in the '60's when they were new. I marvelled at the construction, and I did get to fix one once. Ah, the days when you could figure out how something worked just by looking at it.... By Nemo 10-05-2000, 11:28 PM amx, I accept your point too. I guess I'm lucky the show doesn't distort my daily work -- I can see it would be hard to let that pass even if I wanted to. Also, when stories sometimes do achieve better than usual scientific fidelity, I do appreciate that. And thanks for explaining the practicalities of radiocarbon dating. By amx 10-05-2000, 11:47 PM Nemo, I only know so much about radiocarbon dating as a result of being on the receiving end of a long lecture from the lab we deal with about submitting sub-standard samples! I was treated to a very long telephone conversation during which I was told in excruciating detail of the difficulties involved in dating and how much they hated getting samples that 'simply weren't good enough' (exact words). All I could do was meekly explain that the Aboriginal people who lit a small fire at the base of the deposit in the rockshelter we were excavating didn't think about C14 dates when they did so, and that I was terribly sorry for their oversight! We were pretty stoked when the date of 21 950 +/- 130 BP was returned. Apparently, the lab looked on our sample as 'a challenge' to their skill and technique. amx By ROStaFEHRian 10-06-2000, 08:23 AM Hi AMX, Everyone! AMX, thank you for the information on carbpm dating. It is entertaining AND educational to learn so much about topics. Same with AENEAS' cyclotron post as I mentioned before. Would both of you mind putting the same or summarized posts on the new Signs & Symbols thread, too? AMX, perhaps we should look at the 'Miami Circle' again AMX, do you know about the geological or environmental tests or lab procedures (for soil sampling? or rocks? or strata???) called PW-1 or MW-1 the markings that were on the side of some containers(?) in the scene with the geologist in the desert when Isabel gets there. BTW- did we see her car, and how did the geologist not here her coming?? did she materialize out of thin-air??) There is a certain amount of 'fatigue' that builds that is associated with having to continually suspend disbelief (or being jarred out of the suspension we adopt to enjoy sci-fi) and mentally trying to fit pieces together. It is natural to do that, try to fill in the holes or make the pieces fit. I liked S&B, and Jason's marvellously shaded performance of a teen oscillating from one emotion to the other. But I am 'exhausted' by the 'piling on' of bad science and off-kilter behaviors and improbably acts. Which leads me to believe that there has to be a 'purpose' behind it. An intent. The alternative would be to believe that the science has become more inept. I don't want to believe that. Fuel for my suspicions: House hearings would not be conducted with an inflatable green alien doll onthe podium. I've mentioned this twice but I have not heard any other thoughts about this. The whole hearing was absurd. The CNN TV watching scene was off kilter. Funny, but not right. Maria was off center. The kids appeared way too 'glossy' (part of this may be intentional, part of the new look, but not all). With 'Charlies Angels' returning to the big screen, is this a sign that 'jigglevision' ( a pop culture term probably not familiar to those born in the 70's) is back ? At the end, in the CD, Michael talks in melodramamatic lines of old war movies or westerns. Whitaker's character is WAY off. Liz is different. That sheriff is almost slapstick. There are 3 key scenes that may be a clue that our perceptions of what is happening may not be true some of the time. And note that they occur in the BEGINNING and the END of the episode: 1. in the beginning we are fooled to believing that Max is talking to the therapist. But it was false. 2. in the end we see Max lying down on his bed, then a knock and he opens his eyes and gets up. Are we being fooled again to believe he is awake?? 3. what did Max do with Edsedo's body and why would he be running shirtless with a bloody palmprint on his chest. This isn't the Max I know. Something had to have hapened in between to send him panicking in the street. Up until the end, when Max gets up to go to the window, was it all a DREAM or nightmare (or a mix of reality and delusion- maybe Max is not rowing with all oars) or Everything more or less happened as we saw it until Max lies on his bed and the ending is not real: Edsedo is not dead, Max was dreaming. In the promo trailer, there is a curious moment in the CD when Tess waves her hand over the side of Max's face. Did Max run there still in the hold of a dream and suddenly wake up. When he said "he died in my arms" was he relating a nightmare I do, however, very much like the idea posted by LENEBA (great post) that someone/something else (?a Skin) rapped on the window and then shoved Edsedo at Max. The screencaps from the first 3 promos have an unreal quality to them. Nighmarish/ dream-like. For instance, the scene with Isabel in the "green" room. Something is not right. Max is the only constant (true to character) throughout all scenes and the one through whose eyes/mind we might have reality filtered. Could be Isabel's perceptions, too. Perhaps this is some hybrid of altered reality/perceptions because Isabel has the ability to be dreamwalk and she most likely has a mental connection with Max. Amix of real and unreal. Rosta PS, LENEBA, I also thought the 'pentacle-like' mark was from a combination wound and 'branding', that the object would have a center piece to it such that it made the pentagram appear off. I actually had not thought of that hand-held object. Great pick up. BTW- would someone please private mail me if you know what has happened to the Crashdown screencaps from the first 2 or 3 promos? By LSS 10-06-2000, 02:04 PM Rosta: What can I say but that I hope you are right. It is better to think what I saw was intentional and not the result of poor writing, etc. LSS By SciFiMom 10-06-2000, 02:50 PM Hello everyone I am enjoying this thread, haven't made it all the way through yet, so if what I share was already said...sorry. I agree with a lot of what people are saying and feel that most topics are being well covered. I only have a couple of "extra" thoughts. The Skins: I was thinking about them and this is my hypothesis on the topic. First, we saw them (well, sorta ) only at night. They way they showed "their" vision was much like seeing thru night vision goggles or the way cats see at night. Secondly, Michael couldn't see them at all, and I don't believe Nacedo could either. So, my first thought was they are chameleons, and the darkness of night aids in their "invisibility". Then I thought about the show "The Invisible Man" and how he suppossedly refracts light, appearing invisible. Maybe our nasty aliens can refract light. Now as for the skin, I first thought that maybe they shed...but why? Are they like bugs or reptiles? But then another thought accurred to me, what if they need artificial skin to appear human and then shed it when in natural form (to better hunt). So maybe they can shape shift like Nacedo, but need help with their coloring...thus the skins. Different behaviors: In defense of the writers, I feel that they were trying to be realistic. This has been an extremely stressful summer for everyone. They are feeling the stress, each in their own way. In a crisis situation and one that lingers, I feel that people do change in an attempt to deal with the situation. They are facing the most extreme kind of stress I can think of....being hunted, by an unkown enemy. War changes people. Second thought here is a comparison of sorts. I watched The Matrix last night and while I was seeing Neo struggle with his identity, it made me think of Max. Their situations are much the same. Both having been jerked from their worlds to a different reality. And are being told that they are the answer for millions. Neo was very odd in how he behaved and very reserved. Trinity was very reserved, even though she loved him. Our Liz is trying to hold back to allow Max to become who he is destined to be, she can not interfere with that, too many people counting on Max. This doesn't mean they can't be together, but I don't think they should be together until he is able to come to grips with who he is and then Liz could come to realize her role in that. (if any). Well, there you all have it. The not so great thoughts of a sci-fi nut. Let me know what you think. ~Sheri By jenlev 10-06-2000, 04:32 PM hi there, scifimom: i think what you have written makes sense. regardless of the plausability of the sci-fi; these are still charactors that are faced with such an extremely outlandish (no pun intended) experience that one might expect that they would be a bit adrift. the layers of trauma added to the completely foreign nature of their situation takes all of the charactors into new territory. i would be astonished if any of them hadn't changed. perhaps they are all on the way to becoming "more themselves", but in the meantime they could be expected to present in unexpected ways. i completely admire the postings regarding the sci-fi plausability, this is great stuff! what is still the most interesting to me is how the charactors involved in the story respond to the unexpected and unexplained situations they are encountering. this brings to mind the question of how the charactors suspend their disbelief in what they are experiencing? jenlev By Qfanny 10-06-2000, 04:43 PM quote:Originally posted by LSS: Hey Qfanny: You mentioned before that some people think that Pierce was an alien. I must say that I have never really believed that. But I am curious. Have you heard any of these folk talk about the bones we see in this eppy? Harding made a big deal of how his bone structure was not human. And Max & Co. are hybrids (which explains their bone structure). But Pierce's bone structure is human. Soooooo--since I do not find any hint in the storyline that he was a hybrid then I am going to assume that those bones rule out his being an alien. I mean unless these aliens "possess" humans, that bone structure is hard to explain away. LSS Well, I had thought last summer that Pierce was a shapeshifter like Nasedo, but in the last two weeks I have changed my mind on that. I do think that he is evil alien-- for all the points Palomino made and also because it explains his motivation. Pierce was orbsessed! I assume that once the body was burned and buried that no one distrubed it until Grant came along with that fancy metal detector. Even if the manner of how Pierce died is different, it cannot compare to the oddity of its finding. There seems to be a third hand in this sequence of events, and the fact Michael found a skin in the area cements this in my head. You're right. We have dialog from Deputy Hanson stating, "The bones are human alright." But we do not know what may have transpired over the last three months during this episode and Destiny. How do we know that the body that was found out in the desert was really Pierce's. It could be that TicTac found the body and took it away, put Hanks' there instead. This is what happens when we have logic holes, we want to fill them in! Maybe Tess is doing a mindwarp on me and I see what I want! Certainly some of the theories I've read have been way more interesting and believable than what the writers have presented. I am now debating what is more farfetched, the cyclotron or Mommogram! To me, Pierce will always be evil, alien remains to be disproven for me... If the writers intended to disprove evil alien Pierce, they could have done it more convincingly in this episode. By ROStaFEHRian 10-06-2000, 06:28 PM quote:Originally posted by jenlev: hi there, ..these are still charactors that are faced with such an extremely outlandish .. experience that one might expect that they would be a bit adrift. the layers of trauma added to the completely foreign nature of their situation takes all of the charactors into new territory. i would be astonished if any of them hadn't changed. what is still the most interesting to me is how the charactors involved in the story respond to the unexpected and unexplained situations they are encountering. this brings to mind the question of how the charactors suspend their disbelief in what they are experiencing? jenlev Hi JENLEV, ALIENMOM, everyone, I agree with what you guys are saying. Absolutely the characters, in varying degrees,and consistent with their individual experiences, should be demonstrating the after effects of trauma, fear (including fear of death), terror, the outlandishness of their situation, stress, confusion, loneliness, fatigue, and on and on. And how each character manages/expresses his or her emotional and/or physical burdens, or grows (positively or negatively) is largely informed by the cahracters' individual profiles of strengths, defenses, and prior experiences ('priming'). That is my point. I was troubled that, in some extended scenes, I was not seeing anything. As if most of them had collapsed into 2-D glossy characters instead of 3-D characters reflecting their recent past experiences. I think the words 'off' or 'off-kilter' or 'different' need to be further clarified, at least when I use the terms. I do not mean that the character is 'off' because he/she is not behaving the same as BP(before Pierce). I mean that AP (after Pierce) events, the body language, words, behavior do not ring true to any type of character change, expected or unexpected. The jail cell conversation with Michael and Valenti RANG TRUE as did his going off half-cocked to call Piercedo. But the Michael in the diner is mouthing words. I fully expected this Michael to say to Maria, in a John Wayne voice, "an alien 's gotta do what an alien 's gotta do. There is no way in h** Maria would say to Max "..no way I'm showing you the bod..." . Funny line, but why would she? Someone else mentioned that they are hanging around in the diner, in Liz and her family's home. Why not in Michael's apartment as someone else suggested? At the gravel pit, etc. They are hanging out there like ghosts tied to a place. Where are the parents? Regardless what the TPTB want in terms of sci-fi, this does not ring true. I did not even 'feel' their off-screen presence. Max was on-target. Even in his quiet, sitting on the therapists couch, we could sense the 'burial', the isolation, the wall. JB, IMHO, demonstrated just how gifted he is in this episode, running the gamut of emotions, often going from one to the other in moments. Labile, vulnerable, stretched to his limits, yet struggling to keep on, keep control, lead. As played (and this may be intentional), Maria did not convey to me that her best friend left her, nor that Michael has been ignoring her, emotionally abandoning her. Even if her 'head' understood his reaons. Even if she were digging from the deepest depths of her self to try to move on, handle things, this should be the 'change' conveyed. To me, it was not. This was someone else. As a viewer, I have to be convinced that the characters are acting out of their 'whole being', even if they are acting different, unusual, or even opposite to their natures. It should still feel as if the change came out of the whole being. I will qualify that by saying altered personality inappropriate to the experience(s) of the individual might be the result of fugue reaction, amnesia, or substance abuse . If you look carefully at the promo for next week, we see Isabel as we have come to expect Iz to look:: hair pulled back in her ponytail, tendrils falling all over her face, etc. Not piled up like a Grecian princess, sleek and lacquered. Halter tops and jigglevision when they are in danger: I don't want to think that TPTB are that demented. Naw, I ain't goin' for it. Something is up. Something is not right. Rosta By Reggie 10-06-2000, 07:51 PM <sigh> Well, I suppose I'd better post. I watched S&B, and thought I'd better watch it again before I said anything. The second time through confirmed my earlier impression: there's no science fiction in Skin & Bones. Well, OK: biology. Isabel seems to be in vibrant, even jiggly, health. Tess also dangles realisticly when she bends forward. It also seems that Max has been doing some physical training, and that Michael has had cosmetology practiced on his hair. Could Maria really grow 6" of hair in 3 months? We've also had the obligatory Safe Sex Message: when diddling someone of a different species, use a condom. Sheesh... I gather that They are hoping Katherine Heigl will be the next Jennifer Annison, hence she is featured in clothes and settings beyond what the plot or character calls for. A leather evening dress, in the daytime desert? I will say one thing in her favor, though: she isn't anorexic like so many other role models. She has a nice shape, but there's no ribs showing on this gal! As for the non-science of S&B, let's start at the beginning. You can't detect bones with a metal detector. Why? (Bones contain calcium, which is a metal.) Because it's not the metal that is detected, it's the metal's electrical conductivity. Metal oxides, phosphates, etc. do not conduct electricity; and bones are made of these non-conductive materials. Any cadmium that shows up will be promptly oxidized: remember, the haemoglobin in blood is a good source of oxygen. Let's consider metal detectors. They work by using a coil of wire to set up a large magnetic field, which sticks down into the earth. This magnetic field is varied in strength. A varying magnetic field will induce varying electrical currents in any metal. These induced currents have their own magnetic fields, which are picked up by the metal detector. It makes a difference in the metal's response, how susceptable or reluctant the metal is to interacting with magnetic fields. It also makes differences how the dirt reacts to magnetic fields, how well the metal conducts electricity, etc. Unless there was a lot of actual metal involved, no metal detector would have picked up those bones. Plus, if the "archeologist" is interested in radiation, he'd be using a Geiger counter (which measures radiation). There was no reason to expect to find metal out in the middle of nowhere, so why use a metal detector? Fishy. With respect to "cadmium X" - this is pure BS. It's like saying you've discovered an extra day in September, making a total of 31; and the extra day is of alien origin. The periodic table of the elememts is listed in order, by number of protons in each element's nucleus. One proton, two protons, three protons, etc. There are no numbers without elements. As for being an unknown isotope, the isotopes of an elememt are similarly cataloged; only, by number of neutrons. In general: too few, and too many, give radioactive isotopes. Reasonable numbers give stable isotopes, and a "hole" in the sequence would be odd. Furthermore, where is this stuff supposed to come from? Is Michael making it? Unlikely, as this would involve nuclear processes. "Manipulating molecules" is bad enough, but transmutation is beyond belief. The cyclotron business has been covered by others, but I must agree: this is so bogus. It's as though The Powers That Be are deliberately poisoning the "science" part, to drive off the sci-fi fan audience that might be giving Roswell a try this season. Beyond the above, noone seems to have mentioned that they have also changed or disregarded the Roswell story so far. Remember, in Destiny, Michael used his hand power to push the FBI car back from the sherif's car. He used the same ability to clobber Pierce: blunt force, slamming him against a wall. His ribs would have been crushed, and neck broken, by "blunt force trauma". Michael did not touch Pierce, so there was no handprint; and no heat was generated, since there was no smoke or steam. So, this season Michael has "hand-cooked" Pierce? No, that's not what happened. Finally, hasn't anyone noticed that Max seems to have given Liz an erotic vison in an attempt to win back her affection? Smooth move, Max: that's exactly what Tess was doing last season. Sheesh... If this keeps up, I'll have a hard time watching even thirteen episodes.... By overtherainbow31 10-06-2000, 07:59 PM quote:Originally posted by Leneba: I guess I'm still stuck on the whole essence-cloning/human-alien hybrid/destiny issue. It seems to me that if one's essence were to be cloned, that doesn't mean that one's emotions and experiences would be cloned as well. So I think that although the potential for Max and the others to pick up where their alter-egos left off is there, but given their different experiences and bodies, they really are unique and separate individuals. Yes, whatever innate qualities and characteristics that motivated the couples to be together in the first place probably were cloned. But their feelings, their relationships, their lives are different and new. I don't buy the whole destined to be together bit. As badly as the folks back home want them to be, they are NOT the same people. However, that doesn't seem to have dulled the podsters sense of responsibility in the matter. [/B] I agree, Leneba, that they are not the same people, er, aliens, and that brings to mind a spiritual aspect that hasn't been addressed, as far as I can see. Do the clones, as different individuals, have different souls? And, speaking of souls, does their former civilization have a more evolved spirituality than their hybrid counterparts? Is there a Higher Being that unites us all, no matter what world we come from? By Charity 10-06-2000, 08:34 PM Hello all! I'm new to the Science Fiction thread and I had question that I'm hoping someone could either speculate or answer. I'm not sure if this has already been answered or not so excuse my ignorance if it has. Ok when we ended with "Destiny" we were left to believe that Nasedo took over Pierce's place in the Secret Unit. Ok I have one problem with this. Nasedo is an alien with no human structure other than his outside appearance. The Secret Unit is believed to be a air tight organization that uses finger prints and bone structure so that you can enter the facility. It's obvious in "Destiny" that Nasedo lacks the essentials needed to enter and this is why he used Michael. So how in the heck could he go a full three months gaining complete access to such an elite unit. I'm well aware that there are loopholes; this is obvious because how else would they have rescued Max. And I have considered that maybe Nasedo allowed other agents to enter and he follow their lead, but the only problem with that is I'm sure at some point that with Pierce being the leader of the Secret Unit that there are some things that only he has access to. It's beyond me how Nasedo pulled this off. He must've been invisible. Ok I'm thru babbling and if you actually read my whole post then thank you. I look forward to your responses. By overtherainbow31 10-06-2000, 08:38 PM quote:Originally posted by SF: PS Wasn't the overzealous deputy in a few eps at the end of last season? Sorry if someone already said this, I am refering to a post on pg3. I don't know about the deputy being in the last couple of eps, but I do know he was in The Morning After (ep after Pilot). Michael was selling chocolates for charity to try to get in the sheriffs office, and this deputy was the first person he tried to sell the chocolates to. After that I don't know. MUCH LUV...OTR31 By Lorrilei1960 10-06-2000, 08:58 PM quote:Originally posted by jenlev: what is still the most interesting to me is how the charactors involved in the story respond to the unexpected and unexplained situations they are encountering. this brings to mind the question of how the charactors suspend their disbelief in what they are experiencing? jenlev Hi jenlev, et al. When I read this I was reminded of something Stephen King wrote in one of his non-fiction essay type works... He said that (and I am really paraphrasing here because I don't have the book on hand) people go about their daily life, and when the weird and expected happens, they don't really believe it at first and are slow to react because their mind has a hard time grasping things out of the realm of the norm. That is why people tend to discount the fantastic... their brain just can't wrap around it. Now, I know this doesn't apply 100% to our characters... but perhaps, in a way, they are trying to force things to be normal by acting normal... but inside they know it's not, so it's sort of over glossed/off kilter... like a forced smile when things aren't really great and we're trying way to hard. By shapeshifter 10-06-2000, 08:59 PM quote:Originally posted by Reggie: <sigh> ... With respect to "cadmium X" - this is pure BS. It's like saying you've discovered an extra day in September, making a total of 31; and the extra day is of alien origin... Reg, excellent analogy. But let's be honest here: the object of our collective obsession (Roswell, The Television Show) has ALways been just hinging on the edge of camp (remember that term from the Batman Show of yore?). I mean, the whole premise of teen aliens (before they went hybrid on us) was never based on any empiracle (or miraculous) evidence. Even though the notScience Fiction has been beefed up, the show is still about relationships and alienation, NOt about science. As someone who avoids food when depressed, I'm more worried about JB's and KH's obvious weight-loss than any loss of science on the show because there never really was any. But yea, I had a REally hard time accepting Max in the Cyclotron--I had to keep reminding myself that of course he had been working out his alien muscles in the gym all summer while Michael was splitting rocks with his bare eyeballs. By Shee 10-06-2000, 10:21 PM Wonderful thread. This is always fun to read. But I am curious about some'things'. The evil aliens. Are these the people Mom is referring to in the momogram? The evil within? These are the aliens who conquered the podsters home world, who killed them? Then back to present. The 'skins' attack Nasedo and kill him. He knows who and or what they are. But they don't attack the podsters. They seem to be observing. Could it be that with the cloning of alien essence and human genetic material, the outcome, our beloved band of hybrids, could be a real danger and or threat to the 'skins'? Because with the human factor thrown into the mix, the evil aliens are now dealing with the unknown????? Shee (still puzzling) By overtherainbow31 10-06-2000, 10:56 PM quote:Originally posted by ElizabethinTexas: As for the flash Liz has, I think it is coming from Max, albeit subconciously (sp?), because he is so desperate to get her back, to "woo" her. Thus the whole "What?" on his part. I love, though, that she simply got this from him touching her. I think it might be comming subconsciously from Max, or if not maybe he is "open" to her emotionally. Last season Neither Alex nor Maria got visions/flashes but Mi/Is did. It is probably same to say that Ma/Al didn't get the flashes because Mi/Is weren't "open" enough emotionally, but Max and Liz were, to each other last season. Liz is distancing herself from Max, so maybe that's is why he allegidly didn't have the flash, but he was "open" to Liz so she did. My theory. Got to toss my $.02 into the jar. *ping* MUCH LUV...OTR31 By shapeshifter 10-06-2000, 11:04 PM quote:Originally posted by overtherainbow31: I think it might be comming subconsciously from Max, or if not maybe he is "open" to her emotionally. Last season Neither Alex nor Maria got visions/flashes but Mi/Is did. It is probably same to say that Ma/Al didn't get the flashes because Mi/Is weren't "open" enough emotionally, but Max and Liz were, to each other last season. Liz is distancing herself from Max, so maybe that's is why he allegidly didn't have the flash, but he was "open" to Liz so she did. ... Actually, Michael Did see the red sneakers with the Kermit patch and the blue shoelaces, and the dog. So, if Liz is now not open to Max, then Maria would have been correct in her apology that She was the one who was "shut down" and always faking it. Unless, of course, Liz IS now open to Max, and Max is not really--in spite of his desperate longing. This seems unlikely, but his worries about being King could make him less open. By LSS 10-07-2000, 08:25 AM Great posts folks. I've been away from my computer for a day so I have to catch up. But since I don't want this thread to travel too far down the board before the new one is up on Monday--bump. LSS By tp 10-07-2000, 08:26 AM Hi guys: I'm coming out of lurk mode to add my two cents. Regarding Maria: I feel her sarcastic attitude (trying to be funny) towards things is actually "normal" for her considering all that she has been through. Over the past 3 months, she has been a "counsellor" to both Max and Liz and with losing Michael, a person is bound to be shrill or bitter. Question: What purpose was there to see Pierce/Nacedo walk into the Crashdown, and then shapeshift into Harding?? pretty risky, I'd say. Notice the differences: Pierce said "move" to the man, Harding politely asked him to "excuse me". Nacedo seems to inhibit a bit of personalty with each person he shapeshifts into. It seemed to me that the EA or "skin" tried to hide from Nacedo as he looked up. Did you also notice that Harding seemed to be facing in the general direction of the "skin"????? Whitaker: Something is not right with that chick!! (Maria quote) To me, she seemed to be looking (no glaring) directly at Max during the cyclon(sp?) scene. But when Max looked up, she quickly turned away, acting as if she didn't see him. I know the camera work indicated that Max wasn't supposed to be seen, but I think she did. Did Max send Liz those flashes??? I would like to think not. Max isn't wanting to push Liz too much. His need to touch her, "reach" out to her made him do it. I believe he knew that Liz had one though and couldn't help but have some hope - therefore, the smug smile. At the end of SH, didn't he ask her if she got any flashes? I think they don't know when and what the other experiences - I could be wrong ---let me know what you think!! Hope this made sense!! By shapeshifter 10-07-2000, 10:44 AM Page 2??!! I think not!! I don't know about anyone else, but I still have 58 hours til ep 2 of Season 2! And the Mommogram-related portion of Nemo's theories are now archived at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/mommo.htm By Qfanny 10-07-2000, 11:06 AM Reggie. Thank you for your post! You have given me a lot to think about.. There are somethings that you just can't buy, and you basically proved to me that the SciFi aspect of the show is not there in any logical sense. I am rather blessed that I have to come into FF to have the errors pointed out to me. I am reminded of Palomino's rant about the whirlwind v whirlpool galaxy from SH. I would never know these things myself to know any better. I have read more than just your critique of the SciFi here, I've read your disappointment too. I would also be disappointed if my job revolved around science. If everyday I have to re-educated my audience to dispell rumors because someone did not do 5 minutes of research. Yeah. I get where you and Palomino are saying. I still think that there is something in the story that is worth saying, "Yes!" to. Okay, it's not the SciFi. But I did enjoy the S&B episode. Even if the story is bad, the story telling was well done.... I liked the show, and probably always will. The remarks on thinness of JB and KH concern me too. If the weight loss was done under a healthy program I'll stop worrying. I just know that I have lost 40 lbs over a summer because I would forget about eating. I was so stressed out. I would hate for JB and KH to be under that much pressure. In regards to Max's subconsciously giving Liz a vision... I rewatched the scene, and I think it was deliberate. I don't think Max wanted to give her an erotic vision, just help her remember. In anycase, I don't think it compares to what Tess did to Max. Liz only sees the truth in her visions. Tess can fabricate illision. Also, Liz seemed to understand what Max wanted to do, and the possible consequences. Liz could have pulled away from Max but didn't until he said, "What". Liz seemed to enjoy the vision, where as Max seemed rather upset to Tess's mindwarp. By Qfanny 10-07-2000, 11:09 AM Duplicate Post deleted By redhawk 10-07-2000, 12:09 PM Hi Reggie! I enjoyed your post and explanation of the metal detector. I tend to agree with Qfanny about the show in general. S&B was definitely full of mushy science, but it was full of suspense and written well with regards to suspense and intrigue. I do agree with others that they really need to be seeking the guidance of an actual scientist to proof-read the scripts. There is only so much that even us non-science people can believe and I for one was very disturbed by the cyclotron scene. Suspending my disbelief with regard to this scene gets harder and harder everytime I watch it. Although I have to say it was definitely well acted by JB. That man amazes me with his acting skills. He swings so easily from one emotion to another without ever looking like he is overacting. By jjj 10-07-2000, 12:33 PM IMO the complaints about "bad science" are coming because TPTB have been so adament about minimizing the "relationship" aspect of Roswell and emphasizing the sci-fi aspect. People are now saying "if you want us to love this show as a sci-fi program - give us GOOD sci-fi." If they want to run with the big boys of science fiction they have to do it right. When most of us cared primarily about the human/alien aspect we would willingly gloss over the glaring gaps in logic because that was not our primary focus. But if they want us to look at this as real sci-fi (isn't that an oxymoron?)they can't have mistakes that even us non-scientific types catch. They can't ask us to ignore basic science knowledge. Maybe when they brought in the new sci-fi writers they should have also brought in a high school science teacher to review the scripts! jjj By redhawk 10-07-2000, 03:28 PM Hey Rosta - Here is what I could find on the ring Tess is wearing. Okay, the ring. It is still blurry, but I have another cap of it. I'm still leaning to it just being one of those knot rings. Pic from the Crashdown. Pic taken from one of Vidiot's promos. It hurts my dreamer heart to have Tess taking up valuable space on my web area. Anyway, these two pics may not be the same ring. Wait a minute! They are on different hands, unless they reversed the pic. Although I think this all happens on the same day. Hmm... just might have to wait 'til Monday for more info. Rosta - What symbol did you think it looked like? By Qfanny 10-07-2000, 04:32 PM Do you suppose that the evil within could be related to a distinct smell? If there is a reason to mix alien essense with human genetic material, it would probably be to give them something to combat the enemy. When Harding did the "buff-suit" change in Destiny, he didn't appear to have a nose. RedHawk-- Thanks for your keen interest in the symbols. I am trying to follow your posts. The caps are great! Everyone, my new neighbor has a very friendly Rottwellier puppy, about six months old that barks all night. I found out the dog's name is Max. When I asked God to let Max keep me up all night, this is not what I had in mind. argh! By ROStaFEHRian 10-07-2000, 05:07 PM quote:Originally posted by redhawk: It hurts my dreamer heart to have Tess taking up valuable space on my web area.[/B] That's so funny, Redhawk. BTW, though, this is the scene where Tess waves her hand over the side of Max's face and it appears she is not hiding this from Liz. Thank you again for you efforts. There is a much better view, starting from the point Tess says .."I won't let you down yadayada..) there is a more frontal view with her left hand holding the cellphone. The only way I can describe the symbol is that it is the one illuminated symbol (among the ones that move across the screen in the promo) that appears to be two "C"-like shapes, joined back to back, with inward-facing curls at the ends. In the picture you posted you can see the backward-facing 'C' side and the point in the middle where they are joined. This particular symbol is somewhat ubiquitous, but it is common in Aegean art, ornament(vegetation) and a Native American plant motif. I'm trying to find it on the web. But I'll continue this on the S&S thread. By overtherainbow31 10-07-2000, 05:18 PM quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter: Actually, Michael Did see the red sneakers with the Kermit patch and the blue shoelaces, and the dog. So, if Liz is now not open to Max, then Maria would have been correct in her apology that She was the one who was "shut down" and always faking it. Unless, of course, Liz IS now open to Max, and Max is not really--in spite of his desperate longing. This seems unlikely, but his worries about being King could make him less open. I debated on whether to reply to this and to just drop it, but feel I have to clear something up. I agree to everything you have said here, but I was saying that Mi/Is are open to receiving the flashes but not to give them. Like I said Maria and Alex didn't receive flashes because Mi/Is weren't open to giving them, but Mi/Is did because Maria and Alex both were open to give them. I understand what you are saying when you refer to what Maria said in SH, but I feel it might not have anything to do with Liz since Maria is refering to herself. Maybe I just completely misunderstand what you are trying to say here. If I did I'm sorry. MUCH LUV...OTR31 ...but I can't hide... By Palomino 10-07-2000, 05:33 PM Hi All : I've been gone for a couple days and caught up with the threads as soon as I got home. You guys sure do move fast, so I'll not bring up stuff from the last couple pages that has already been mulled over. One thing I've been wondering: since Nasedo/Harding knew the sheriff was now on the podsters' side, and he knew the enemy could show up at any time, do you think he may have left any private messages or instructions for Valenti? Harding seems to have deliberately left the podsters in the dark all summer - which is very dangerous itself. Is it because answering their questions will alter the way they are to be raised; thus altering them from "who" they are supposed to become? (Maybe if they get knowledge of their homeworld too early, they will lean more towards the culture of the aliens than humans, and they need to be raised as humans?)He must know that (unless Tic-tac is around) there will be nobody else to protect the podsters until they are "ready". Has he trusted the sheriff with key information? After the meeting at the CD, but before he shows up as Pierce again, Nasedo had plenty of time to talk alone with the sheriff. In the past three months, he also had pleanty of time to write letters or leave other goodies incase of his death. Valenti was uncharacteristically very quiet when Nasedo was talking about killing people. Was he that afraid of the aliens or did he know (like Nasedo) that Max had to be pushed into making a decision? Did Nasedo do that on purpose, and was the sheriff in on it? Any thoughts? By Qfanny 10-07-2000, 07:05 PM snip, snip. quote:Originally posted by Palomino: [b] Hi All : One thing I've been wondering: since Nasedo/Harding knew the sheriff was now on the podsters' side, and he knew the enemy could show up at any time, do you think he may have left any private messages or instructions for Valenti? Harding seems to have deliberately left the podsters in the dark all summer - which is very dangerous itself. Is it because answering their questions will alter the way they are to be raised; thus altering them from "who" they are supposed to become? (Maybe if they get knowledge of their homeworld too early, they will lean more towards the culture of the aliens than humans, and they need to be raised as humans?)He must know that (unless Tic-tac is around) there will be nobody else to protect the podsters until they are "ready". Valenti was uncharacteristically very quiet when Nasedo was talking about killing people. Any thoughts?[/B] Good points! I got the impression that Valenti and Harding never really met before when he said, "Welcome to the ever growing, 'I know an alien' club." Of course, they did meet before in MttM when Harding delivered the camera to the sheriff. I believe that Harding used this as an excuss to find out how deep the sheriff was involved, and possibly, to find out if he was protecting them. Valenti confirmed Harding's thoughts with that lame corrupt moving company excuss. Aside from this meeting, the Skin and Bones meeting is the only other time we know for a fact that Harding and Valenti talked. Harding was not present when Valenti, Max and Michael disposed of the Pierce's body. Given the way Nasedo treated Michael when he called, I don't think he did give any special instructions for the sheriff. Why? I think TicTac must have been around still... Harding seems to be like an andriod when Max gives him an order. These thoughts could have poured thru his head, but doing what Max wants seems to be more important to him. His own opinions don't mean anything. Still, you're right that Valenti was uncharacteristically quiet during the whole scene. I mean, I can just image what Max and Co. had told the sheriff about Nasedo during the summer. And Nasedo did just threaten to kill any human that had the CamdiumX knowledge. The sheriff could have been told that he listens to Max only, and possibly he trusts Max to lead Nasedo off the "killing" course. But, the night is still young and as always, my thoughts will change within the next 48 hours. Doin' the bump! By Melodious1 10-07-2000, 07:51 PM quote:Originally posted by Qfanny: Everyone, my new neighbor has a very friendly Rottwellier puppy, about six months old that barks all night. I found out the dog's name is Max. When I asked God to let Max keep me up all night, this is not what I had in mind. argh! ROFL! I have absolutely NOTHING constructive to add to this thread, I just wanted to acknowledge how funny QF is! I pray for the same thing every night QFanny! No dogs in my neighborhood thank god, wouldn't want to send the wrong message to the Almighty! Melodious By shapeshifter 10-07-2000, 07:57 PM quote:Originally posted by overtherainbow31: I debated on whether to reply to this and to just drop it, but feel I have to clear something up. I agree to everything you have said here, but I was saying that Mi/Is are open to receiving the flashes but not to give them. Okay, I think I've got it now: So Liz Was open to receiving Max's memories but not to giving them. That makes sense. OverTR, Is being left-handed an excuse I can use for getting things backwards in this case? By redhawk 10-07-2000, 08:30 PM QF - Max the puppy. Rosta - Is this the one you were thinking of? Or is it the one that looks kind of 3-dimensional? By shapeshifter 10-07-2000, 09:36 PM Attention all Nemo-esque symbologists: quote:from S&B script: ALEX: Oh, look! "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" is playing at the Revival Theater at the fairgrounds. ISABEL: You know, Alex, maybe you should see what you can find out about cadmium-x. ALEX: Sure. Look, there are 4 showings on Saturday. One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest is reminiscent of the White Room. The Revival Theatre can refer to a spiritual or physical revival, or maybe it's a continuation of the Rocky Racoon/Calhoun reference. And "4" showings seems significant. By ultima 10-07-2000, 10:03 PM Hello. I have always been a lurker of this forum, and one of the seemingly few male viewers of this show. I decided to register and post on this because I think that many people may be missing some key points. Firstly, I offer this as an explanation to the congresswoman's strange behavior in S+B (such as not knowing what "carbon dating" is, acting all strange like she realizes max is in the chamber even when she doesn't see him, etc.): Theory 1: Vanessa (that IS her name, right?) is actually one of the skins/evil aliens. This would make a lot of sense, because any true alien would be much less likely to know everything about human technology (carbon dating). Also, these EA's would probably be much more sensitive to "mind warping" as it is termed. Theory 2: For some reason or another, Vanessa never learned about carbon-dating. I do believe a college degree is required to become a part of congress, however you can get one without ever learning about carbon dating or archaeology in general. (I first learned about carbon-dating in middle school, however you are supposed to learn all about it in high.) The congresswoman did have a slightly large knowledge base on other topics, such as Cadmium X, but Cadmium is an element and science is based around elements. (since elements make up all things, and atoms make up elements, blah blah blah) Or, perhaps she researched Cadmium and its isotopes after learning about the existance of the unknown substance dubbed Cadmium-X. Also, Science is split into so many different fields that it would be very hard to study and learn each one extensively (or even to scratch the surface), even if you dedicated your whole life to it. It is important to keep in mind that there is always a feasible explanation as long as you want there to be one. As for her being conscious of Tess' "mind-warp", perhaps she wasn't and we are only mis-interpreting her examination of the chamber. Yet another possibility is that she was more aware and suspicious than any of the scientists (which is quite obvious) and thus was simply trying to make sure everything turned out as she wanted it to. To shed some light on the actual "How can Cadmium-X exist" question, think of it like this. On any given planet there are a limited number of present naturally occuring elements, and then some elements which can only form when certain circumstances are met, and those circumstances require intelligent life to interact with the environment. An element like Cadmium might change or mutate if it were effected by an energy reaction around it. Don't you EVER think that the periodic table lists ALL the elements in existance either. All it covers is the ones we have discovered. Remember that if even a few electrons changed position from one ring around an element's nucleus to another, it could become entriely different (and also unstable, so who knows what happens from there). The particle accelarator is another story altogether. First of all, does anyone know what this machine actually DOES? If it even actually EXISTS? Because I sure don't. You sci-fi skeptics seem to know a lot about this, such as the inside of the accelarator is a vacuum, but does anyone actually know what the machine does or how it works and why? I really don't think anyone has a right to criticize something when they don't explain why. Also, you can't properly assume that a machine is exactly what you THINK it is. Assumptions are often very wrong. I'd address some other points and ideas that have been brought up, but I'm getting tired of typing =). Just keep in mind that the science fiction theme is a lot like fantasy theme; it is best left unexplained. (In fact, the only true concept seperating fantasy from sci-fi is that fantasy themes never actually try to explain themselves, sci-fi do.) By clarinetkate 10-08-2000, 01:50 AM Hey guys, I also wondered why Nasedo wouldn't tell them about the skins before hand! He seemed to know that their enemies could be at large (when he warns them in destiny) and he should have the foresight to at least worry that they might be. Why has he never told them thing one about these aliens, and how to defend themselves. If you want to protect someone, isn't bringing them up to speed the best way to? It seems like there was a LOT he could be teaching them. I wonder at his conspicuous three month absence... was he doing more than just diddling that whole time (well, obviously he had the investigation to deal with..)? Was he afraid he was being watched (by possibly evil aliens in the FBI or by EA Whitaker?) and therefore wouldn't make a move? There must be more going on there, because it doesn't make sense for him not to be around all summer. Also, I just have to add that people seem concerned that KH lost weight... now, I am the biggest KH fan out there, I love the girl and Isabel is my favorite character.. but I am convinced that she didn't lose weight, but that she gained weight. She looks significantly more... healthy to me, so I don't think we have to worry about her. No offense meant here, and no value judgement passed at all, she is the most beautiful and sexiest woman in the world as far as I'm concerned, healthier or not. --KATE By ROStaFEHRian 10-08-2000, 08:20 AM quote:Originally posted by redhawk: Rosta - Is this the one you were thinking of? This is the one, REDHAWK, the first symbol on the left. Compare to the side of the ring visible in the screencap above where she is holding the phone, or see almost the whole ring in the ep (you don't even have to 'gracekl') As far as the second screencap, does anyone recognize the 3D symbol as a logo for something? Rosta By Palomino 10-08-2000, 09:21 AM Ultima : Sorry, but your statements about the elements and Periodic Table are wrong. I don't mean to be rude, but I have a degree in science, and I understand the Periodic Table. All of the elements are in order, numbered by the amount of protons they contain. There are no elements of "#29 1/2", and can not be - even in sci-fi. Of the first 92 elements, all are naturally occurring on earth, and there are no "spaces" for others to be crammed inbetween. Cadmium is #48, as are all of its isotopes. The elements above 92 are man-made, and even if some of them would be naturally occurring in other solar systems, Cadmium would not be among them. Besides, many of the higher elements can only exist briefly before breaking down into other elements(lower). In my older texts, there were 107 elements, then 112, etc. The only place for us to discover new elements is up(artificially produced, radioactive, short-lived.) No Cadmium, which is still only #48. Those of us who understand science are disappointed by Roswell's writers. I don't think we are being unreasonable unless Roswell is labled as fantasy-fiction. By jenlev 10-08-2000, 10:27 AM hi there, rosta: i've been away so i'm just catching up, but wanted to say how much i enjoyed your post regarding how the charactors are portrayed as responding to their experiences. i expect that in the next several episodes the veneers the charactors have laquered into place will begin to crack in a big way... lorrilie1960: i also apprectiated what you wrote about how beings responds when they can't 'wrap' their minds around an experience. all this suggests to me that the charactors are currently a bit like a deer looking into the headlight of a car...no wait, a train...no wait, a supertanker (if they have headlights?) because the storyline appears to suggest that the veritable stuff is about to hit the fan in a big way (not that nasedo getting killed doesn't count). i think the writers run the risk of getting so caught up in the pace and extremity of this that the sci-fi continuity and plausability will be even more difficult to manage? as if the story begins to take on a life and cadence of it's own, and the writers get painted into a corner regarding the sci-fi details? jenlev By jenlev 10-08-2000, 10:42 AM hi there, rosta: ps. just saw the last page after i finished posting...anyway, that symbol reminds me of some of the minoan pottery which was decorated with similar patterns. and i seem to recall some other designs in the frescos at knossos as well. i imagine though that the growing spiral (which it appears to look like) could be found in many cultures and would clearly be resonant with how people observed nature and utilized what they saw when creating artwork and other objects? that might have been done for ritual/spiritual reasons...or even just some person being creative. it may also reflect the pattern repetition of how certain shapes and patterns access some archetype? here is a must read book, sorry i didn't mention it before, yikes, where was my brain! "the power of limits, proportional harmonies in nature, art, and architecture" by cyorgy doczi (there is an umlaut over the o in his first name). this book is amazing and still in print in paperback... out on shambala press! jenlev ps. then there are celtic and norse jewelry which often has lybrinthine or spiral motifs. although i only got 5 hours sleep last night so this could all be the vision of a sleep starved brain cel. By LSS 10-08-2000, 02:56 PM quote:Originally posted by jjj: IMO the complaints about "bad science" are coming because TPTB have been so adament about minimizing the "relationship" aspect of Roswell and emphasizing the sci-fi aspect. People are now saying "if you want us to love this show as a sci-fi program - give us GOOD sci-fi." If they want to run with the big boys of science fiction they have to do it right. When most of us cared primarily about the human/alien aspect we would willingly gloss over the glaring gaps in logic because that was not our primary focus. But if they want us to look at this as real sci-fi (isn't that an oxymoron?)they can't have mistakes that even us non-scientific types catch. They can't ask us to ignore basic science knowledge. Maybe when they brought in the new sci-fi writers they should have also brought in a high school science teacher to review the scripts! jjj jjj You took the words right out of my mouth. This is really beyond excuse as far as I am concerned. I love Roswell. But these are professional writers and producers we are talking about here. And they can and should be held accountable. And you right--if they want to be SF they have to pay their dues. Personally I happen to think that Roswell will never be "all" SF. But it doesn't have to be to satisfy me. All they have to do to keep me happy is keep the relationships growing, keep the action interesting, and keep the science in this fiction plausible. LSS By ultima 10-08-2000, 04:19 PM "Ultima : Sorry, but your statements about the elements and Periodic Table are wrong. I don't mean to be rude, but I have a degree in science, and I understand the Periodic Table. All of the elements are in order, numbered by the amount of protons they contain. There are no elements of "#29 1/2", and can not be - even in sci-fi. Of the first 92 elements, all are naturally occurring on earth, and there are no "spaces" for others to be crammed inbetween. Cadmium is #48, as are all of its isotopes. The elements above 92 are man-made, and even if some of them would be naturally occurring in other solar systems, Cadmium would not be among them. Besides, many of the higher elements can only exist briefly before breaking down into other elements(lower). In my older texts, there were 107 elements, then 112, etc. The only place for us to discover new elements is up(artificially produced, radioactive, short-lived.) No Cadmium, which is still only #48. Those of us who understand science are disappointed by Roswell's writers. I don't think we are being unreasonable unless Roswell is labled as fantasy-fiction." Palomino: Yes, its true there are no "#29 and 1/2's" (lol) because it is assumed that there cannot be non-whole protons, neutrons, and electrons. I understand that the periodic table lists each combination of electrons on specific rings until it covers just about every combination, and each whole number of protons. [for lack of the better word I call them rings, I don't remember what the technical term is] For example, Lithium has 2 electrons on the first ring and 1 on the second, Beryllium has 2 on the first, 2 on the second, and it continues with all the other elements like that. However, keep in mind that this makes a lot of assumptions: 1.)only whole, evenly sized protons, neutrons, and electrons can/do exist 2.)there can be/are only 4 possible rings for electrons 3.)the positive and negative ions cannot be reversed and 4.)elements like hydrogen cannot/do not exist on their own (for example, we have never found a hydrogen atom by itself, only hydrogen molecules where two atoms have combined) When I say they do/do not exist, I mean throughout the entire universe, not just our little planet. (Which raises another excellent point; the size of the universe is COMPLETELY unknown, therefore it cannot be proven that there are not places where our physics do not apply.) Also, when you say "even in sci-fi", you are completely inaccurate. If you want an example of this, look at a well-established sci-fi series such as Star Trek. Star Trek is undeniably sci-fi, and yet it encorporates numerous unexplainable occurances and items. Take transporters, for one. How can molecules and atoms be taken apart and reassembled at another location? How would they pass through masses unaffected? How can a living creature be seperated into pieces come back to life? (if you took away a vital organ, the person dies and they can't be revived, so how can they survive being disassembled entriely?) My point is that science fiction in reality makes no logical sense, and therefore should not be logically analyzed. Science fiction is just a term for a type of fiction (fiction IS fantasy, BTW) that people like to try to explain [for some reason]. Therefore the label "science-fiction" IS the same as saying "fantasy-fiction". Also, since fantasy and fiction are synonyms, that is a poor term. This can be argued to the grave, because it is a difference of opinion on what something is. (everyone's experiances make them see things in a different light) Side note: I wish someone would explain how a particle accelerator works, why it only functions in a vacuum (how is the vacuum formed BTW?), and why it would harm/kill someone inside the machine while it was running. By overtherainbow31 10-08-2000, 04:58 PM It works! My dad is left handed and so I can understand! LOL MUCH LUV...OTR31 ...but I can't hide... By amx 10-08-2000, 05:57 PM Rosta - a big HI back to you! I had forgotten about the Miami Circle - so I'll dig some more stuff up about it when I can. As for the C14 stuff - give me a little time and I'll summarise it for the S&S thread. I haven't come across the particular sample designations that appear in S&B - my first reaction is that they are just that, sample codes. We use a similar notation for excavated samples - TP-1/XU-1 to identify material from " Test pit 1: excavation unit 1". The more abbreviated the notation, the easier it is to write on sample containers and less likely that the ultimate disaster (an unlabled sample) will occur. The symbol you are referring to looks to me like a copy/re-working of a Celtic (La Tene 'organic' style) or early Anglo Saxon motif. The interlocking curves are thought to represent continuity - the design (like the wheel of life) having no discernible beginning or end. Qfanny - be careful what you wish for! amx By Qfanny 10-08-2000, 06:15 PM Ultima: You're right that if we choose to complain about sci-fi element that it should be done from somesort of knowledge base, either from study or from life experience. I have none of these experiences, but even I can see that there is something not right with the science element of Roswell.... I want to point out a less technical question regarding the grave and the excavation. The grave did not seem to be very deep. I would have thought that after Pierce's body was burned (assuming it's Pierce's body Grant found) that the Valenti, Max, and Michael would have buried at least 6 feet deep. Grant does not have to dig long to find the bones. I am also curious about the decay rate of the bones. In a dry arid climate, wouldn't decay take a lot longer? I know that the body was burned before hand, but I would think there would be evidence of clothing and whatnot that could have survived the Pierce pyre. I agree with jjj and LSS's comments about how the writers were forced into sci-fi content. For me, what hooked me was the Max/Liz story... Looking more for that than anything else. amx: Trying to revamp my desires into more specific ones! God seems to be listening. By Palomino 10-08-2000, 06:17 PM Ultima : I really am sorry about this, and please don't feel that I am picking on you. Originally posted by Ultima: [for lack of the better word I call them rings, I don't remember what the technical term is] Electron levels, electron shells, or energy levels are usually acceptable. Posted by Ultima : 2.)there can be/are only 4 possible rings for electrons Seven levels. Cadmium(#48) has five. In order from nucleus out: 2, 8, 18, 18, 2. Posted by Ultima 3.)the positive and negative ions cannot be reversed Not sure what you meant. Anti-matter? It is real. Posted by Ultima: 4.)elements like hydrogen cannot/do not exist on their own (for example, we have never found a hydrogen atom by itself, only hydrogen molecules where two atoms have combined) Not true. Or are you talking about naturally on Earth only? When I say they do/do not exist, I mean throughout the entire universe, not just our little planet. Sorry. Incorrect. posted by Ultima: (Which raises another excellent point; the size of the universe is COMPLETELY unknown We know about when the Big Bang occurred, we know about the speed the universe is expanding, therefore we can calculate the approximate size of the universe. BTW, the universe is not expanding into infinate space - the universe IS space. Posted by Ultima: Also, when you say "even in sci-fi", you are completely inaccurate. If you want an example of this, look at a well-establed sci-fi series such as Star Trek. I stopped watching Star Trek TNG for a while when they thought they were the Wesley Crusher Show. You know, all the highly trained Star Fleet specialists can't figure something out, so Wesley steps in and pulls a rabbit out of a hat with surreal mumbo jumbo to make it look "scientific". After they got away from Wesley, they continued some of the immaginary science, but it got better. Posted by Ultima: Star Trek is undeniably sci-fi, and yet it encorporates numerous unexplainable occurances and items. Take transporters, for one. How can molecules and atoms be taken apart and reassembled at another location? How would they pass through masses unaffected? How can a living creature be seperated into pieces come back to life? (if you took away a vital organ, the person dies and they can't be revived, so how can they survive being disassembled entriely?) Gene Roddenberry, who came up with the idea of transporters, admitted it was more space opera than sci-fi, at least at first. The idea of transporters is not so far fetched. Matter can be turned into energy, and energy can be turned into matter, but neither can be created or destroyed. The total amount of matter and energy in the universe is unchanging. Roddenberry's idea was for the matter of the person(or object) to be turned into energy, transported as an energy beam, then reconstituted into matter at the desired point (with of course the person or object perfectly reassembled - rather like a television picture is) True, it does not exist, yet, and it would have more limitations, but it is something to think about. Posted by Ultima: My point is that science fiction in reality makes no logical sense, and therefore should not be logically analyzed. ARE YOU SERIOUS? Science fiction is just a term for a type of fiction (fiction IS fantasy, BTW) that people like to try to explain [for some reason]. Whoa! That insults my intelligence. Posted by Ultima: Therefore the label "science-fiction" IS the same as saying "fantasy-fiction". Science adheres to facts, laws, possibilities, and common sense. Science-fiction should play by the rules, and be written by someone who knows science. Fantasy has no such constraints, and can be written by anyone. Side note: I wish someone would explain how a particle accelerator works, why it only functions in a vacuum (how is the vacuum formed BTW?), and why it would harm/kill someone inside the machine while it was running. [I]I won't go into how it works here, but the air is pumped out to create the vacuum, so no one could live inside it. It would kill someone inside by radiation, and lack of air, (generally turning a person into a giant hicky). Again, I don't mean to sound rude or anything, but science is how I earn a living, and if writers can't handle even high school science, they should not be writing for a sci-fi show that has even a partial audience of intelligent, science-literate people, no matter what their age. I don't feel that science lesson's or debates over science belong on the threads, nor do I want you or anyone else to have any hard feelings, so if you wish to continue our dialog, please talk with me via private messages. I would be glad to explain anything, but I like the boards, and come here to unwind. I do not want to argue or feel uncomfortable here. Thank you, Palomino. By amx 10-08-2000, 07:53 PM Qfanny, your question regarding the rate of decay isn't as simple as you think - indeed it is one of the most vexing questions in archaeology. The actual rate is highly dependent upon the exact conditions to which the material is subject. Generally, alkaline conditions promote preservation, whereas acidic conditions hasten bone breakdown. Preservation of bone through desiccation does occur, however, it is the exception rather than the rule (I'm speaking in VERY broad terms here – I acknowledge that the Urumchi, Loulan, Egyptian Old Kingdom, Atacama (Chinchorro), Inca etc etc mummies, all created through desiccation, exist but they are absolutely exceptions to this rule). It goes back to the fact that collagen is necessary to maintain bone structure. When collagen desiccates, it loses its structure and hence ability to stabilise the bone architecture. So, the bone suffers structural ‘decomposition’, rather than decay per se (through bacterial or fungal agents for example). In the case of bone that is burned first – this can have two distinct effects (just to complicate matters). If the bone is only burned a little, it can actually aid preservation, by sterilisation and chemical stabilisation of the bone. However, if burning proceeds to calcinations, the entire structure breaks down far more quickly that would otherwise be the case. So, the short answer to your question is – there isn’t one! It is impossible to state with any certainty how long a skeleton will last without knowing the conditions it was, is and will be subject to during burial. As to the depth of the excavation for the burial – dry sand is extremely difficult to dig into; the sides of any hole simply collapse in, resulting in a sort of ‘self-filling’ process. Most burials in sand are relatively shallow as a consequence. If I were to bury a body in a sandy environment, I would simply excavate a shallow depression next to the body and allow the remains to slide into it! Then cover any bits that still protruded! amx By Qfanny 10-08-2000, 08:02 PM amx: Thanks for your explanation. I am still trying to digest it all. I just basically wanted to know if at this time, only the bone would be left or not. It's only three months. As far as digging in sandy environments, I know what you're talking about because I onced played in a sandbox. But the area around the found body did support vegitation. There are plants growing around and at the time of burial, May, it would not have been so hot and dry. There seems to be some structure in the Earth and I still think that a deeper hole could have been dug. Why Max and Michael didn't just move the molecular structure of the Earth to bury Pierce's remains unanswered. I'll go back and read the previous pages, but do you think the pyre got hot enough to reduce Pierce's body totally to ash. I bet there was some "material" left on the bones, which is why I posed the question about decay rates in the first place. Thank you for posting the answer! By Lorrilei1960 10-08-2000, 08:17 PM Hi all... just thought I'd jump into the "lack of credible sci-fi" fray. Keep in mind that I am definitely NOT a scientist... but I do love sci-fi I saw a little blurb today on the making of the movie "The Sixth Sense" what has that got to do with anything, you ask Well... the director/producers/etc. said that they had to make rules for their movie universe and checked each scene to make sure the rules were always followed so that if you watched the movie a second time (after knowing the ending) those who looked for the clues, etc. would see that everything DID fit. OK...now on to how this fits Roswell... I think what we have here is a problem with the continuity of writers (meaning they have a lot of different writers) that they neglect to check the "rules" of the Roswell universe that were established at the beginning of the first season. We've seen such inexplainable inconsistancies in the way that things seem to work that it's very frustrating... once I think I've figured out how a rule applies.... it doesn't What TPTB need is for someone to firmly establish the rules of the Roswell universe... and then have someone check each script to see that they follow said rules. Well...now that I've rambled on about this for awhile... I'll just take a step back and let the science gurus continue to battle it out By amx 10-08-2000, 08:22 PM Qfanny - no problem. Since I haven't seen the ep (gipe, gripe, grumble) and am working off screen caps, I freely admit that I could be mistaken in the detail! As I posted previously (and was mentioned by MyrnaLynn I think - along with, perhaps, others) - it takes very high temperatures to combust bone to anything resembling ash. However, a body can be stripped to a skeleton in a very short time in biologically active environments. If there are lots of soil flora and fauna present, they can do a thorough de-fleshing job in 3-6 months. Ants are best in this regard. (WARNING! FOR THOSE WITH A WEAK STOMACH - SKIP THE NEXT FEW LINES). In order to put together a skeletal reference collection whilst I was at university, I collected 'road kill' and buried it in my garden - near to ant nests. Depending on the weather and size of carcass, it took between one to three months for the flesh to be removed. A human body is considerably larger, so would take a bit longer. However, the pyre may have burned enough of the soft tissue away that decay organisms had much better access and could complete the 'job' more quickly. I must say, though, the skeleton in the screen caps looks to be in too good condition and too complete to have been subject to either burning or scavanging etc. END OF ADVISORY Vegetation in arid environments doesn't necessarily imply soil stability. In Australia at least, desert plants have two strategies to cope with aridity - deep tap roots (to access deep aquifers) or an extensive network of surface roots (to collect light rain or dew infiltration). Neither are particularly good at sand stabilisation - hence moble dune fields occur. Your point regarding burial by means of alien powers is a good one, but I have to wonder why they didn't just "poof [the body] into oblivion". Surely that would be the optimum result - no pesky physical evidence to contend with. Ok, so it potentially leaves a gaping plot hole, but would have avoided some of the less palatable scientific misapplications. Ultima – whilst I appreciate your point and agree that we might be becoming overly analytical about Roswell, speaking for myself, I simply can’t help it. It seems to be part of the scientistic mindset that we are driven to take things apart and examine them at the smallest level of detail possible – no matter how trivial the end result. As to sci fi – the reason series like Star Trek work IMHO is that they are set in the far future and (in the more recent series at least) present a world in which the science may not be possible or even probable on today’s knowledge base, BUT it is plausible and above all internally consistent. Roswell, on the other hand, is firmly embedded in our era and has relied (to date at least) on current science for some of its plot development and dramatic tension. Unfortunately, often what we have been presented with is not even plausible, rather it is simply a silly misapplication of current science that could be avoided with a little care and reference to basic text books – it is neither consistent nor plausible in the final analysis. Such a lack of care annoys me when it is so easy to remedy. Does this mean that I don’t like Roswell – most definitely not! Because, when the writers get it right, the show simply has no parallel! I hope that you stay with us – since dialogue with minds who have differing views on the same subject is the essence of the sci fi threads. amx By Leneba 10-08-2000, 08:59 PM Aeneas, I was thinking about your list as to why Max shouldn't have been able to complete his mission to remove the Cadmium X from the bones-- Wasn't it that he would have to have: the strength to lift the manhole cover, the ability to withstand the vacuum as well as survive the high energy particles? I hope I got that right. Anyway, while I'm not suggesting that the scene was in any way plausable (even my non-science self caught that something wasn't right), I would like to point out that we've seen some extraordinary feats of strength and speed from Max. In Leaving Normal, he knocks down the bathroom stall wall with one angry punch. In Blind Date Kyle finds him relaxing on top of an overhang. How did he get up there so quickly? Did he jump? In White Room, we see his form blur as he goes from a seated or semi-prone position (sorry, can't remember which) to clutching the front of Pierce's clothes. The scene implies unusual speed, even though Max's abilities were dulled by the influence of Pierce's drugs at the time. These acts haven't been addressed directly, but I think we are meant to understand that despite his mostly human physique, Max's alien heritage has granted him more than a great immune system and the ability to heal rapidly. Does this adequately explain the scenes in Skin and Bones? Probably not. But I STILL enjoyed that whole sequence of events. And let's face it, visually, that part of the episode was pretty cool. Overtherainbow31, You posed the question that if our podsters as clones are different individuals from their "originals", would they have different souls? I think I kind of answered that before, but I'll address it more directly here. First, as hybrids, by definition they are not the physical clones of the fully-alien royal four. Even if they were, we know that human examples (identical twins) are very much separate individuals with separate souls. We don't even know if their alien genetic samples were from the original four. (Do we? Someone please correct me if I'm wrong). However, Momogram said that their "essences" were cloned. As I mentioned before, I take the term essence to be a combination of soul and basic personality--their essential spiritual identity, for lack of a better discription. I think this is where the rational for a destiny comes into play. I don't think a physical duplicate could be expected to function as the same individual. But if the same soul inhabits a different body (eek--reincarnation!), well, I suppose an arguement could be made for a pre-determined outcome. Having said that, I still maintain that even with "cloned essences", these four kids are different individuals with different bodies and experiences from the original four and cannot be held to a destiny unless they choose to accept that responsibility. In which case, is it really destiny? Look at Michael's scene with Maria at the end of Skin and Bones. He readily takes on the soldier identity, but rejects the bit with Isabel. Max steps into the leadership role, but shies from estabishing a relationship with Tess. And that information came from the same source at the same time! I guess we'll find out how much in control they are of their own destinies and how much of a factor the "essence cloning" issue turns out to be. By the way, to answer you last question, yes, I personally like to think that there is a Higher Power for all of us, alien or not. Hmm. Maybe there should be a "theology of..." thread. There's been some discussion of Tess's ring and the new "alien" symbols. While I won't hazard a guess as to the exact symbolism right now, I am looking forward to reading what everyone else thinks about them. I too noticed a shift to a more organic style with this season's symbols. The ones from last season struck me as very alien while these new ones contain some element of familiarity. Intentional or not, they're compelling. On the subject of suspension of disbelief and good science in science fiction, I can only speak for myself. In my experience, it is the extraordinarily rare sci-fi movie or TV show that balances good drama with good scientific explanations. Frankly, I just don't understand it, given the huge amounts of wonderful sci-fi in print form. (LSS, any theories on this one?) I can understand the frustrations of those of you who make a living in various science fields. I grew up in a medical family, so I can relate. Any show or movie with any medical content was pretty much pulled apart for inaccuracies. Indeed, after watching Blood Brother, the first thing I did was to call my E.R. doc brother to confirm all of the mistakes I had spotted in the episode. (I can't begin to tell you how many times I've heard my mom exclaim, "That's not a newborn, that's a three-month-old!" And my dad absolutely ruined the drowning resuscitation scene in They Abyss for me.) But the inaccuracies and resulting hole-poking fail (happily) to get in the way of our overall enjoyment of the stories. While the shaky science in Roswell has made me both groan and laugh, I am willing to put it aside because of the extraordinary enjoyment I get out of the show as a whole. I love coming to the sci-fi threads to see what theories you all have and what scientific holes you've found, and add my thoughts to the mix. This is consistently one of the most thought-provoking and entertaining threads on the board. I guess when it comes down to it, I can forgive shaky science for the sake of enjoying some great drama. But if the dialogue and the basic story lack heart and intelligence, the scientific accuracy is irrelevant to me. And Roswell has more than captured my heart and imagination. Sorry for all of the personal rambling! Rachelle By Nemo 10-08-2000, 10:04 PM quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter: Attention all Nemo-esque symbologists: quote from S&B script: ALEX: Oh, look! "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest" is playing at the Revival Theater at the fairgrounds. ISABEL: You know, Alex, maybe you should see what you can find out about cadmium-x. ALEX: Sure. Look, there are 4 showings on Saturday. -------- One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest is reminiscent of the White Room. The Revival Theatre can refer to a spiritual or physical revival, or maybe it's a continuation of the Rocky Racoon/Calhoun reference. And "4" showings seems significant. shapeshifter, thanks for this -- I think you're onto something. I suspect one significance of the cuckoo's nest is that cuckoos, like cowbirds, lay an egg in the nest of another bird, and get rid of one of the original ones to hide the deception, keeping the total number the same. As most of you know, I suspect the story of Tess involves a similar substitution, whether or not she knows it. Thus, the remaining three originals plus Tess would be the four that are showing, i.e. evident, as alien-human hybrids. But I think the fourth original "essence" got salvaged and eventually transferred to an ordinary human (not another podster, not like them in powers, but having the "essence" of former Max's bride.) So this would be the one that has undergone a sort of revival. Actually, an additional revival, considering that the four have undergone one revival already. This is another subtlety that fits with the idea that Liz is the one -- in the pilot there is an alleged blooper that "five days ago I died" is entered in her journal on two different dates, as if she "died" twice. Well, in a sense, she did, on this conjecture. Even if one journal entry contains an error by Liz, it can be a clue by the writers. Before the cuckoo reference, at least two people posted the cowbird idea or substitution idea long ago, I believe. (Tepp was one of them.) Palomino, you were able to make out the mother's name on Tess's school record -- how about the "birth" date? I'm not sure, but wasn't it a little earlier than Max's (contrary to that suspected Tessavision about her being last). If so, that might also fit the cowbird/cuckoo analogy -- I have heard their eggs hatch a trifle early, giving them an edge over the other nestlings in the competition for food. Has anyone verified that date? By Lorrilei1960 10-09-2000, 06:07 PM Just giving a bump to see if anyone has any last thoughts before we move on to the next eppy (in 2, count 'em 2 hours )
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