The Science Fiction of Blood Brothers: Some Comments - This topic was 4 pages long LSS Member -Posts: 840 - Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-22-2000 07:17 PM [NOTE: Since our SF of SH thread topped at 200+ posts, I thought it best to start another thread where we could continue our far ranging discussions of Roswell's SF dimension] **************************************************** BL0OD BROTHERS: Although this episode did not contain a variety of SF elements, it did present viewers with interesting facts concerning alien biology: (1) SICKNESS AND THE ALIEN CONSTITUTION: M/M/I, we are told, are immune to all earthly diease ("We don't get sick"--Isabell). Of course, such immunity does not make them impervious to injury or trauma, as is evidenced by the car accident. (NOTE: Also, in Riverdog, Max refers to a prior ankle injury and Isabell's sun sickness). Exactly WHY our podsters are immune to sickness is never disclosed. Are earthly diseases too alien to affect them? Or are their internal systems designed to ward off earthly sicknesses? And what about that record recovery time Max experienced? Are we to think some kind of regenerative powers at work on a non-voluntary level? Does Max "heal himself" as he lays in the hospital? (2) ALIEN BIOLOGY. Prior to this, our knowledge of alien biology is limited to Liz's discovery in the PILOT episode. Our gang's concern with Max's blood sample, however, reminds us that while our aliens may look human, there are real biological differences. These differences, however, do not extend to vital life signs. At various times in this episode, for instance, the Paramedics report blood pressure, pulse, respiratory rate, etc. without causing undo alarm (undo, that is, for a trauma victum). It is only the request for blood tests that causes universal alarm among our teens. (Of course Max is not too keen on staying for the MRI the next day, but it is unclear as to whether it is the examination or spending the night in the hospital that he wants to avoid.) The above plot elements raise the question of the nature of our aliens' bodies. In the old SF of SH thread, posters' speculations ran to three main options: 1) aliens whose bodies could change shape as they manipulated their molecular structure; 2) bioengineered or genetically constructed lifeforms, or 3) energy beings. It was also noted that there might be, in fact, different kinds of aliens (this surfaced in our discussion of Nesedo's essential relationship to M/M/I/). How would these theories fit with the biological information given us in Blood Brothers? What do you think? [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-22-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-22-2000).] Kate6058       -Posts: 1132       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-22-2000 07:57 PM The question that's been in my head since the first time I saw this episode is did the FBI or whoever Topolsky's people are match Alex's blood with the sample that was supposed to be Max's? This was never mentioned again... I think maybe this will be one of the keys used to somewhat expose things in future episodes. Because honestly, they don't have any other hard evidence... there's the police report of the shooting with Larry and Jennifer's testimony, and the fact that Max "put out" the grease fire (but that's not really proof the sheriff could use), but other than that, there is no real evidence holding them. Maybe this also indicates that Alex will be playing a bigger part in the rest of the season (it's about time). This episode always makes me like Alex a little bit more . Alien Biology: I have also always wondered why Max never had a CAT scan or MRI upon his arrival at the hospital. An unconscious sixteen year old trauma victim with apparently only a head injury would surely have some kind of scan to find out what was going on, especially since he didn't wake up for what seemed like at least an hour or two. I guess that's one of those inconsistencies we have to forget about, though. I've also wondered... couldn't the aliens, if they worked hard enough, change their molecular structure to be exactly that of a human? Alien Sickness: There must be something about their immune systems that doesn't pick up diseases, bacteria, or viruses... but I think they are probably susceptible to muscle and ligament tears and bone breaks. From what we can tell, their skeletal systems must be exactly like a human's, or they'd look different in some little way, for sure. I don't really know about this one... it's full of inconsistencies, also. DocPaul       -Posts: 160       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-22-2000 08:44 PM 1) When Isabel mentioned that they don't get sick, that probably meant that they have never been sick in their life, but doesn't preclude the possibility of illness. Especially since Michael was very sick in the episode "The Balance." Not having a childhood illness isn't really that uncommon. Some people have extremely good immune systems that fight off common illnesses before they really cause concern. You can recover from a sinus infection without antibiotics easily, but it will take your natural immunity about two weeks. Maybe as descendents to space travelers, these teenagers have hyped immunities. 2) Alien biology is probably also at the cellular level. Liz's cheek scraping she plated and checked in the microscope from Max's pencil showed abnormal or non-human epithelial cells which was depicted by a green coloring and squarish cells reminence of cork. More than likely the alien difference is in the tissue structure, such as body antigens, red blood cells, etc. But, obviously the alien blood must be a hemoglobin carrier since the aliens breath oxygen without signs of hypoxia. The blood was red indicating iron concentrate. Difference would have to be in the antigens and surface molecules. Also, cursory examination of Max by the EMT showed his heart to be where a human's is, respiratory rate was normal, vitals were normal, and pupils were normal and responsive. This suggests that in all structural aspects the aliens are for the most part human. Maybe they are a special breed of hybrid, part human and part alien? MRI/CT scan may have shown abnormalities in brain structure or enlarged pineal glands? But at most when Max entered the ER they would have had to do a series of C-Spin X-rays to rule out cervical neck damage. Once the EMT places a neck restraint only a physical examination and C-Spin series can rule out injury. This could be done without x-ray if Max was awake, but he wasn't so he must have been x-rayed. 3)As far as Topolsky's FBIers identifying Alex as the blood donor is questionable. First, they would have had to retrieve the vial of blood draw for the CBC and do a donor match with the blood retrieve from Alex's nose bleed. But the sample taken from the sample would for the most part have been contaminated by the air, garbage, etc. whereas the sample taken for the CBC resides in a sterile vacu-pak. The best they could probably sumise under such conditions and the time period allowed is that Alex and Max have the same blood type and Rh factor. But, hey this is t.v. Here, they can bend the laws of science, that's what makes it sci-fi. DocPaul LSS       -Posts: 840       Registered: Feb 2000       posted 03-22-2000 08:57 PM Kate: Good point about the blood. You know, with all of their suspicions, you would have thought the FBI could have gotten some cells like Liz did. I really think, however, that at this point in the story's development, writers were working more with the conspiracy theory aspect (FBI) of the SF plotline than with hardcore SF elements. Later episodes--like SH--will once again pick up the idea of biological differences and explore them (as will Balance). One area that we raised over on the spoiler board (but as an issue it is spoiler free) is the idea of whether or not a sexual union between alien and human would be viable. If Max's body rejects human germs & viruses--would its sperm reject a human egg? [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-22-2000).] LSS       -Posts: 840       Registered: Feb 2000       posted 03-22-2000 09:08 PM DocPaul: Our posts crossed. Great comments from the medical side of fandom!!! In Balance, I had the sense that the extreme heat of the sweat lodge caused an imbalance in Micahel's system (hence the cocoon). Would you put this in the same category as a sickness cause by a virus? When Isabell said she had never been sick--I thought that meant she had never had a cold, etc. It was almost like she had no frame of reference for what was happening. Hard to imagine a 16 yr. old, however, who never had to have a blood test,isn't it? {sigh--another item of which we are asked to "suspend our disbelief" so that the storyline can continue). What do you think on the viability issue of human/alien mating? Surleigh       -Posts: 60       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-22-2000 09:13 PM 1. ALIEN SICKNESS--When Isabelle had first said that they didn't get sick, I dismissed it as a boast, but upon this second viewing, I believe that she and the guys truly hadn't been ill. 2. ALIEN BIOLOGY--Perhaps the difference in their cell structure could explain their resistance to illness. The cells from our human, Liz are haphazardly arranged and different in size and shape. But the cells from Max were, for the most part, uniform all around. It almost appears engineered. If that is the case, then it would seem that whoever engineered the aliens, would make them as impervious as possible. Perhaps the cell membranes are stronger than our own and therefore more resistant to infections. C-Unit Member -Posts: 30       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-22-2000 11:20 PM Ok, so I'm not a doctor, nor do I play one on TV. But LSS posed the question about human/alien mating and the viability of that idea. Here are my thoughts: First off, we have no knowledge of M/M/I's DNA structure. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes which contain the codes for who we are. Sadly, there are some genetic defects that result in babies born with disabilities. This is important, because the babies are still carried full-term. Nature has some built-in defenses and if an embryo is not healthy, a woman can have a mis-carriage. But, some genetic abnormalities survive and are passed on down the line. That being said, human/alien procreation should be viable, assuming that the aliens have the basic structure of DNA present...with 23 pairs of chromosomes. And even if there are some slight differences, it is still possible for a full-term pregnancy. In researching what DNA is, it is interesting to note that there are actually 2 types. The first is called coding-DNA which has the ATCG codes that make up who we are. The second is called "junk" because it does not have any encoding. Throwing out a really speculative theory would be that M/M/I have taken advantage of that "junk" DNA, which has resulted in their superpowers. Another thought is that M/M/I have heightened brain functions which allow them to manipulate the molecular structure of things or dreamwalk. Again, both of these ideas boil down to some tinkering with the DNA of our trio. I still assert that Nacedo, or whoever was responsible for the silver handprints of the 1950's photos, was collecting human DNA for a little genetic re-engineering of the podsters. Assuming that it was Mr. Shape-shifter who collected these samples, he would not need to have the actual DNA for himself because he could just morph into whomever and pass as human. I do have a biology question, tho...the sample that Liz took in the Pilot was from Max's pencil which he had in his mouth. Would that not suggest that she was taking a saliva sample, and not a cheek scraping sample? I don't know if there is any significance to the type of sample collected and if the outcome would have made any difference, but if someone could explain what cells you would see with a saliva sample vs what cells you would see with a cheek scrape, that would be tremendous. Anyway, I'm rambling (sorry!). Thanks for listening (or should I say reading!) Carolyn DocPaul       -Posts: 160       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-23-2000 12:03 AM LSS: viability of human/alien mating? Mating between species is not generally possible. There are some hybrid species such as donkeys/horses/mules. But generally, the farther removed species are alone the evolutionary tree, the more incompatible they are. In nature, species tend not to cross-bred due to mating times not being compatible, inability to actually mate (meaning that the A and B slots do not interlock: hope you get my meaning here), and genetically impossible. For human/alien mating such as in the show Roswell, I personally believe that the only thing stopping mating would ultimately be chromosomes. Do aliens have the same number of chromosomes as human? They will be needing 46 chromosomes with 23 chromosomes per gamete. The hybrid would need 23 from mom and 23 from dad to create the full 46 complement. Otherwise birth defects and miscarriages would occur. Actually, if the chromosome count is not complement, then conception should never occur. Also, the male sperm has enzymes that break the protective layer around the female ova (zona pellucida) and after it fertilizes another enzyme seals the ova to prevent other sperms from also fertilizing. So in alien/human mating those enzymes would have to be present or some other type enzyme that works the same way. Or if it a human male with a female alien, then who knows. Take back my earlier statement: Actually another way that may stop human/alien breeding is if aliens do not reproduce the human way, i.e. they don't do the nasty. Maybe sex is just recreation. So maybe the next question is how do aliens mate? Do they spawn & fertilize like fish? Do they do that Vulcan thing by touching? Anyway, I assume that our aliens are very human in all ways except in their cells and their abilities to manipulate matter. Maybe they will need a human vector to merge genetic material and then the embryo is cocooned unti it reaches maturity or 6 years of age at which time it is actually born. Hope no spelling errors........ DocPaul DocPaul       -Posts: 160       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-23-2000 12:07 AM LSS: Sorry for second post, but after I sent I had another thought. Viruses and virons are introduced into foreign cells thru different methods such as transformation and transduction. But basically it infects the host cell and intergrates its genome into the host cell where it begins to replicate. So, maybe during mating, alien dna can be intoduced much like an infection? DocPaul jabberwocky       -Posts: 370       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-23-2000 12:29 AM I remember that one of the concerns with the space program was the passible dangers of non terrestrial bacteria or virus being introduced to the earth from probes or say an astronaut being exposed to one. It was concluded that even if they were introduced it would be almost imposible for the non trestrial virus or bacteria to effect people because of the differences in our biology. Thats not to say that such a thing could not happen. The species barrier that keep our species from getting the liness from another animal doesn't always work. Take for instance "Scrapie" a diseases that effects sheep but not humans, but after cows were give feed that had sheep in it to get the cows to produce more beaf the dease was able to effect the cows by becoming "Mad Cows Disease" witch can effect humans who eat the cows with the dease. scary huh..... Elliott       -Posts: 850       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-23-2000 07:55 AM Though I'm enjoying this thread immensely (and am thrilled to see poster monikers that are new to me) I think I have to throw a bit of a wet blanket on the proceedings . . . I think we have to grant that the priorities of writing and producing a TV series that is now hunting for bigger audience numbers than ever is going to be a prime indicator of biological/scientific 'issues' on the show from now on. To look for consistency or even scientific credibility may be too much to ask given these pressures. The fact that we are expected to believe that Max/Isabel/Michael never had samples of their blood taken (at least by the orphanage) completely strains credibility, for starters. It's just something we have to accept in the 'Roswell' universe. By the same token, I think we have to accept that human/alien interbreeding is possible, simply because it would make such good television. I can't believe this won't be explored in future seasons, though I imagine it would be with guest stars or new cast members rather than our regulars. Imagine the tension and suspense throughout: would the pregnancy symptoms be the same? Would the mother-to-be have new or temporary powers (as has been suggested in a fan fiction?) Would the developing fetus be able to 'communicate' with Mom in some way? And of course there would be the 'Rosemary's Baby' question: What would the baby look like? Completely humanoid? Or something else? And just as 'Rosemary's Baby' brilliantly used a tale of the supernatural to explore every woman's secret fears about pregnancy, I can't believe the 'Roswell' creative team would not explore this rich vein of paranoid possibility. That said, it's human nature to want to make sense of the universe we have been handed. So onward! Though I know nothing about biology, the cellular theory put forth here seems a credible way of explaining the immunity the Pod Squad seem to have to earthly ills. But Michael's 'sickness' (for lack of a better word) suggests that the aliens may have outre health concerns of their own. As to Kate's thinking that Max should have been given an MRI when he was first admitted to the hospital, I would just point out that they cost $1,000.00 and are not given willy-nilly, especially as we don't know the Evans' health insurance status. When I slipped on ice some years ago and was knocked unconscious, I was given a cat-scan. Since this looked normal, the tests stopped there. An MRI was suggested when I came to, but like Max, I insisted I was fine and left the hospital. I do think Max's motive was that he feared what an MRI would show, and since this process uses magnets, it might be interesting if those well versed in science can explain why he may have feared this. I do think the aliens should have brain patterns different from ours, however. Someone speculated that the aliens may use a larger portion of their brain than humans. Would this have shown up in a cat-scan or x-ray? I also continue to like the idea that the Pod Squad may themselves be some form of alien/human hybrid, perhaps engineered by Nasedo so they could function and reproduce on earth. The alternative is the mundane idea that all aliens are essentially humanoid just because they are. (P.S.: Re this issue of blood. It occurs to me that perhaps the orphanage DID take blood samples of the children. Was the technology of the early '80s sophisticated enough to pick up anomalies re DNA, etc.? What if the blood samples were only cursorily screened, or not screened at all, but were just filed? This might mean that blood samples of the Gang of Three might exist after all.) [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-23-2000).] C-Unit Member -Posts: 30       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-23-2000 09:04 AM quote: (P.S.: Re this issue of blood. It occurs to me that perhaps the orphanage DID take blood samples of the children. Was the technology of the early '80s sophisticated enough to pick up anomalies re DNA, etc.? What if the blood samples were only cursorily screened, or not screened at all, but were just filed? This might mean that blood samples of the Gang of Three might exist after all.) I wanted to add a bit to this discussion because I was also wondering about this. Based on DocPaul's explanation of blood, I did a bit of cruising on the 'Net and learned that there are three components of blood: red blood cells, white blood cells and platelets. Only the white blood cells carry our DNA material. My guess is that DNA testing is not routine when drawing a blood sample. The only thing that would trigger a question would be if the counts of the red/white cells and platelets were somehow off. If they were abnormally high or low, more testing would have to be done, and that would pose a risk to the trio. But, assuming that their blood has those three items (and from DocPaul's assessment, we know that they have the red blood cells that carry oxygen through the body; and we know that Max's blood clots after he got beat up in Leaving Normal, so his platelets are working; and they don't get sick, which could be an indicator that their white blood cells are fighting infections), then it is plausible what Elliot said that blood had been drawn from the children, but nothing out of the ordinary was detected. Carolyn SF       -Posts: 88       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-23-2000 09:53 AM Hi to all the people that have come over from the SF of SH thread and to all the new posters to this type of thread. It's great to get all your insights. As usual Elliot made a great point: "To look for consistency or even scientific credibility may be too much to ask given these pressures." So I'll try to keep my reality based nuts and bolts prognostications to a minimum, and get onto my SF speculations ASAP. Kate and DocPaul on matching Alex's donor blood to his nose bleed. I don't know how viable this option is, but I assume the FBI could ultimately get what's left of the blood sample Alex donated for Max. Even though red blood cells are non-nucleated (no DNA) all the white blood cells (entire monocyte line) are nucleated and could be karyotyped and DNA fingerprinted. Alex's nose bleed sample would be contaminated as DocPaul said, but potentially WBC's could be harvested from the tissue and DNA fingerprinted too. So the FBI could have hard evidence that Alex donated blood for Max (this still doesn't say anything about Max's alien-ness, just that he didn't want his blood tested). The shaky part to this whole equation is how quickly DNA denatures, and the difficulty in getting rid of the cellulose fibres from the tissue residue. More in my next post. Elliott       -Posts: 850       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-23-2000 10:06 AM C-Unit: If our Trio have normal red and white blood cells (which we assume because Max's blood looked normal to the naked eye) perhaps their blood has an abnormally high concentration of white blood cells. This would have required further testing in the hospital of course, since in a normal human it could be a sign of disease. But maybe there is some other component that fights disease and repairs cells in record time, and maybe this would show up in the blood too. We also have to accept the idea that Max, Isabel and Michael probably don't really know how their blood is different from that of humans. How would they know? Unless they have strong intuition about it. I would think they would be curious and that Max would contribute a sample to Liz so that she could examine it under a microscope and do the requisite tests. (But this would require a comfort level about his alienness vis a vis Liz that Max may not have yet. Interestingly, a cut scene from "Sexual Healing" -- see page 3 of the current 'Cherishing Max & Liz' thread -- suggests that he originally 'saw' that Liz completely accepted his alien nature and loved him anyway. Evidently this had been a lingering fear of his.) [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-23-2000).] Heart of Ice       -Posts: 260       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-23-2000 10:10 AM Oh, DocPaul - thanks for the facts and some insight into your feelings about the mating stuff. I've had no doubts about the, uh, parts matching, but do wonder about the chromosomes, etc. I guess, when I first saw the ep., i just thought that the alien "pieces-parts," for lack of better words, might not be totally arranged like our species, hence the hesitation for an MRI. Yeah, I think Max could have healed himself, they all seem to have a heightened regeneration ability (except our poor, often misdirected Michael - late bloomer?) Great, great thread, LSS, and all posters. And to think I used to believe visiting a FanForum was just for fun - it's educational, too!! (Okay, so now maybe I can justify all of this time to my boss??) HollyLou       -Posts: 330       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-23-2000 10:24 AM quote: Originally posted by C-Unit: My guess is that DNA testing is not routine when drawing a blood sample. But, assuming that their blood has those three items.......then it is plausible what Elliot said that blood had been drawn from the children, but nothing out of the ordinary was detected. Carolyn When I first saw BB I 'thought' Liz was being overly dramatic by saying that the techs could detect male vs female blood. I would think that would require sophisticated screening as mentioned above. Did she have grounds for concern? DocPaul       -Posts: 160       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-23-2000 10:46 AM The question of blood is raised often in how processes occur and tests are run. Basically all blood samples carry certain factors. Blood samples that are collected in vacutubes have a full complement of the different components which include RBCs, WBCs, platlets, coagulations factors, etc. After taking the blood the sample is centrifuged to seperate the different components. The percentage of each component is how we determine whether a person is anemic or have elevated WBC indication infection, etc. Of course each of the different factors have subdivisions which will be a long and too detailed explanation. I will spare you since your such good eggs, unless insomnia is a problem then let me know. This stuff usually puts me to sleep. The point? When they were looking at Max's blood versus Alex's blood the samples where not really comparable. The tests they could have run on Alex's nosebleed sample could at most confirm that it was the same person with a certain degree of error due to contamination, but these test take time. You would have centrifuge the components, extract dna, combine the dna with another vector, usually a vector that could withstand high temperatures without denaturing, multiply the genome so you have enough dna to map common genes (PCR), the dna would then be electrophoresed and mapped. Even the FBI couldn't rush this analysis in less than one day. That is assuming that Alex's sample was even usable. They would have done better to knock him out and remove blood from a blood vessel he wouldn't notice, like behind his knee, etc. I notice another comment about junk dna. Junk dna is also coded the same as the other dna and is replicated along with the rest from generation to generation. Its base pairs are the ATCG also. It exists in our genome as dna loops that are not coded in RNA as active proteins, enzymes, etc. What these excess dna loops have many theories about past protein needs, switched off processes that are no longer needed, and even hidden directions that orientate our cells into placing our limbs in the proper place and not out of our foreheads. Genetics......I confess to getting a B in this class so my information base in weak at best and getting weaker every year as I use it less and less. Anyway....always happy to confuse the issue. DocPaul SF       -Posts: 88       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-23-2000 11:45 AM DocPaul, thanks for all the medical insights. Didn't his pulse seem a little high for a fit young man? Does shock speed up the heart rate? I was trying to see if I could tie a diffrent metabolic rate into the story, but I think that'll be just too much work. I liked your comparison of Max's cells in the pilot to cork. That scene has so many problems it's just not funny. But those "cells" sure look like they have cell walls (as in plants) versus cell membranes (as in animals). C-unit good catch on the saliva versus cheek cells. If anyone wants to write a fan-fic saying that Liz actually is looking at wood cells from the pencil, I could make a fairly good case for you. Not water tight, but way better than anything we saw in that scene... The more I think about it peanut-and-me came up with a really great premise (from SF of SH thread), that MM&I are totally human-like, but with differences that take them beyond human. Instead of their brains being anatomically different, maybe the MRI would have shown up unusual areas of activity. Unless I'm confusing it with PET/CAT scans, MRI make soft tissue serial scans that are displayed in false color showing areas of high neuron activity/highly oxygenated areas?? Need some help here from DocPaul. I also liked DocPauls comment about being different at a molecular level. On the the SF of SH thread part of the reason a lot of us liked the energy alien idea is because it fits so well with the show. The whole glow equalling the energy part of the energy alien. Maybe C-unit is right and Nasedo made MM&I from human DNA, but added the alien "energy/essence" into the cytoplasm of the fertilized egg, thus its ultimately found throughout the body in all tissues. Or maybe it lurks in the intercellular spaces and can be willed to come through the skin (Max lighting the cave in Riverdog). This essence could be the mechanism behind changing the molecular structure of things. I'm thinking something along the lines of the miniflourons??? from the Phantom Menace (as an aside let me say that cheapened The Force big time!!), or the nano-technology of the borg for ST fans. This could explain their extra good immune systems. The alien energy just wipes out any bactaria or virus that tries to invade their bodies. I'm reposting something I wrote on the SF of SH thread. Bare with me. I am going somewhere with this: We seem to keep coming back to why only Liz had the visions. LSS Kate6058 and Elliot, you've been talking about Liz being physically changed by Max. I'm a big one for plausible explanations so here's one idea I had. When Max connects with her in the Pilot to show her his feelings, certain neural pathways in her brain would have lit up. This event could very well have predisposed her to seeing mental images, and each time the pathway is reused it becomes more hard wired. So I'd say Liz's brain has changed. My explanation for the glow is not as realistic, but still plausible. We know Max left a silver handprint on her when he healed her. Instead of the handprint just fading away, maybe it actually got absorbed into her body, and spread throughout her body, much like a virus. (That's how they insert genes for human gene therapy, but you have to accept that the glowing substance is compatible with human physiology). If we take the assumption one step further, that the glowing substance contains alien heritable material, and that it's actually changing Liz's genome, then the story idea that Max and Liz can be biologically compatible in a procreation sense holds together. Or we could postulate that MM&I are human-plus, and now Liz is too, so viable offspring are definitely possible. And they get to make love the human way which will utlimately be good for ratings... This brings up something else to discuss. When Isabel drew Alex's blood, did she use her "energy" to go into a vein and draw blood out, or just drew blood through the epidermis from the dermal capillaries. The technicalities aren't important. Even though she didn't leave a handprint, could some of her energy essence have remained in Alex, and slowly be changing him the same way I've suggested it changed Liz? As usual tons of great ideas coming in. Thanks to all. C-unit looks like my previous post cross with yours. We were thinking along similar lines. Rain       -Posts: 71       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-23-2000 12:15 PM Hi All! I too, was wondering why Liz was so concerned about the blood because DNA testing is not routine at the hospital. I guess she was just cautious, since they knew someone was after them (FBI) DocPaul - I think it was interesting how you compared alien DNA to a virus! Virus' need a host...so maybe alien DNA needs humans to "connect" with eventually. Interesting And your comment on the junk DNA (introns) I like your theory of aliens "turning on" all of our neutral mutations! But I am a little confused when you mean there are remnants of processes that were no longer needed. If there was a gene that coded for something that was not adventageous, wouldn't it be selected against? I too, can't remember genetics from a few years ago. Love Rain Leneba       -Posts: 202       Registered: Feb 2000       posted 03-23-2000 12:27 PM Regarding sickness and the alien constitution, LSS mentioned two possiblities: the earthy diseases are too alien for our trio, or that their systems are designed to ward off earthly sicknesses. After reading everyone's great points and scientific explanations, I have to vote for possibility number two. If earthly diseases are too alien for M,M & I, then that means they are probably very different in other ways as well. I prefer to think of them as essentially human with some very special and extraordinary powers. And as Elliott pointed out, the possiblity of inbreeding is a very compelling factor that would be eliminated if they are too biologically different from humans. I think Max and the others' accelerated tissue repair tie in with their fabulous immune systems. In other words, their self-healing is a function of their physiology, not some unconscious use of healing powers. Think of humans travelling to other planets where medical facilities would be limited at best. A boosted immune system and rapid tissue repair would be invaluable. I just thought of something regarding the healing process. When Max is bruised up by Kyle's friends, Isabel asks why he doesn't get rid of them. He replies that the bruises have to heal normally. This sounds as if in the absence of consciously applied healing powers, his bruises will fade at the normal rate. I suppose a third possiblity is that he could slow his normally rapid recovery time to match that of a human. But then we have to consider the bruises Michael received from Hank. Is his recovery time slower than that of Max and Isabel? One last little tidbit. In light of the type of injury Max sustained, it seemed to me that the doctor was way to casual about releasing him without any further tests. I checked it out with my brother, who's in emergency medicine, and he said there is no way he'd casually release someone under those circumstances. His mom would be required to sign a form saying that he was leaving against medical advice with full knowledge of the risks that entailed. Knowing what a 'good' mom Mrs. Evans is, I don't think she'd do it just because Max didn't feel like staying in the hospital. OK, OK, I know...this is TV...suspension of disbelief and all that... Oops, I just thought of something else. When Michael gets sick in the sweat, I always had the impression it had more to do with something on a mental/spiritual level that happened to be expressed physically as well. I don't think it is as simple as some alien form of heat exhaustion. If it was, why would that elaborate ceremony be necessary? Wouldn't his fabulous alien recurperative abilities counteracted it? At the very least, Max and Isabel should have been able to heal him. Maybe someone (ROStaFEHRian ?)with knowlegde of what the sweat lodge ceremony represents (cleansing?) can address this one. Elliott       -Posts: 850       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-23-2000 12:39 PM SF: I am officially in love with your energy/essence idea. Yes, perhaps our Trio are human but 'enhanced' by this energy/essence. The e/e may be the 'alien' part of their nature. This still begs the fact of where the human embryos came from (Hubble's wife? Meaning that Hubble was maybe Max's dad? There's a pretty kettle of fish! Sorry I don't remember who raised this horrific spectre.) And yes, it would make sense that this could either be passed on genetically (through genital sex) or artificially introduced, through body intervention (like what Max provided to save Liz's life) or through some clinical method. With this idea, the e/e takes on the properties of an elixir. If introduced artificially could it provide the recipient with all the powers the Gang of Three have: immunity to human disease, superior strength and speed and (last but not least) the power to heal? Of course there could be detriments too, which we are not yet aware of. Could the e/e elixir be extracted from Max, Isabel or Michael? Could it be extracted from their cells and synthesized? And if it was would it have the same power? Or am I going totally 'round the bend? I really think the creative team of 'Roswell' wants us to think MMI are really and completely alien. Humanoid alien. Period. But I like this other idea very much today. marph222       -Posts: 112       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-23-2000 03:03 PM great thread... my $.02- this is by way of testimony regarding the blood test reality. at 32 years of age, i have had only two blood tests in my life, one as an infant and one as a college student. since the alien three are never exposed in any kind of "infant" stage (at least so far), then i am perfectly willing to accept the notion that they've never had to have any blood drawn. in any case, i do have to support elliott's comment that there is (and will continue to be) a great deal of scientific plot detail which we must accept as "roswell reality"... but, of course, there's always the possibility that what appears to be a flaw now can turn into an "a-hah!" later... SF       -Posts: 88       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-23-2000 04:06 PM Elliot, I'm so glad you liked the e/e idea. It's tieing in quite nicely to the story thus far. Indirectly I was the one who raised the spectre of Hubble's wife, but you and ROSta kinda ran with the ball. If we assume that Nasedo kills with a purpose, then I just commented that it was interesting that he killed a pregnant woman (SF of SH thread). From what we know there was no reason to kill her. I'm also not sure when it happened, the Silo murder happened in 72?? (early seventies) and Hubble lay low for 30 years until The Convention. I vaguely remember Hubble giving Valenti a time reference on how long he tracked the alien (taking/collecting those handprint photos) and I'm thinking it was about 15 years, which puts the start of the handprints back to the mid fifties. Which means Hubbles wife was killed before Nasedo killed Atherton. Obviously I need to check on that. So whatever he took from her (if anything) it sat around for quite a while. Since the autopsy showed that Hubbles wife was three months pregnant with a little girl, I think we can safely say that Hubble is not the trio's father. However, Hubbles wife could be their mother. Nasedo could have swiped some immature oocytes before he ran off. Even though I initially brought up this idea, I think it's a red herring, and the show wont explore it. If we take C-unit's idea one step farther, Nasedo harvested lots of DNA, and engineered the trio we see today. So they had many dads and one mom?? maybe many mom's too, plus the alien energy essence which came from Nasedo himself. Which makes Nasedo a less evil, pathos filled character. A unique and lonely creature trying to create more individuals like himself. Elliot, the leap you make in calling the e/e and elixir is really clever and could have great plot potential. Not only could the PTB be after the trio because they're aliens but potentially the PTB could build a super human race using the trio. "Could the e/e elixir be extracted from Max, Isabel or Michael?" If it just kinda of floats around inside of them and isn't actually incorporated into their cells, it would seem like it should be easy to get. But first what exactly is it. If its energy that has consciousness, it could always hide from someone trying to find it inside their bodies. Kate's not going to like this, but maybe the trio's physical representation is totally human, but their alien energy is almost like a spirit that inhabits their corporeal form. It can come out of them as glowing light, it can move across space as telekenetic energy, it can take on the properties of a CD player, and somehow their human mind directs it. "Could it be extracted from their cells and synthesized? And if it was would it have the same power?" If the e/e is physical it should be detectable. If it's detectable, eventually it should be extractable. Can it be synthesized. Who knows. And when you talk about power, I come full circle to energy, and how do we define energy beings. There's a conundrum here that wont go away, but I don't know that it has to go away. At the level the story's being written we've speculated in far more detail than the writers ever will, and from the science end of it all we'll just have to suspend our disbelief. I have a feeling that there are going to be some really big holes in the logic and we'll just have to ignore them. Arctic Lurker       -Posts: 147       Registered: Nov 1999       posted 03-23-2000 04:08 PM Wow! What a great learning experience. I avoided Biology in High School since I couldn't spell and in the sixties, spelling counted a LOT. I picked the Physics/Chemistry route and don't remember a darn thing about that either. SF: You hit on a point that struck me the first time I saw this ep. Wouldn't the cells that Liz extracted possibly be at least partly from the pencil itself. A recently sharpened pencil might have a lot of tiny wood shavings on it. Oh, and I love your explanation of how Liz has possibly been changed through the activation of certain neural pathways and the absorption of energy from the hand print. Elliott: One little comment on blood work in the early eighties. The kids have only been out of the pods for ten years so it would have been in 1989 or 1990 that samples would have been taken by the orphanage. On the blood test thing...It was brought up on another thread that quite a few people don't have blood work done for most of their young lives. My kids had blood tests when they were born to discover their rh factor, but it was only because I am rh negative. I don't know if it is routinely done at birth if there are no problems. They never required blood tests after that, well except for my youngest when he became a Red Cross blood doner his first year of university, but he was 18 by then. On the e/e elixir idea, Liz may be enhanced (and I absolutely love that idea) but she was still getting a cold back in "Into the Woods". LOL I was a huge Starman, the Series fan back in 88/89. The writers took a totally different approach to human illness with him. In one episode he got extremely ill and almost died when exposed to a flu virus, because he had not developed the necessary antibodies to fight human viruses. The only thing that saved his life was a blood transfusion from his son, Scott who was half human and half alien. [This message has been edited by Arctic Lurker (edited 03-23-2000).] [This message has been edited by Arctic Lurker (edited 03-23-2000).] SF       -Posts: 88       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-23-2000 04:30 PM quote: Originally posted by DocPaul: What these excess dna loops have many theories about past protein needs, switched off processes that are no longer needed, and even hidden directions that orientate our cells into placing our limbs in the proper place and not out of our foreheads. Sorry this is off topic. Do you have any references or cites for who's doing the above type of limb research. I've done some electrophysiological research on very early limb development, prior to AER formation, and am very interested in this area of developmental biology. We could e-mail off the board, just let me know if that's OK with you. Thanks Lorelei Junior Member -Posts: 19       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-23-2000 05:11 PM I apologize if this has been covered already, but I find it hard to believe that the 'blood' situation didn't cause problems when they were children. Every child has a medical record, even if they don't get sick very often, at least for the sake having their booster shots. And then there is always the yearly check-ups... Is this just an inconsistency on the writers part or am I missing something? Kate6058       -Posts: 1132       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-23-2000 05:33 PM quote: Originally posted by SF: "Could the e/e elixir be extracted from Max, Isabel or Michael?" If it just kinda of floats around inside of them and isn't actually incorporated into their cells, it would seem like it should be easy to get. But first what exactly is it. If its energy that has consciousness, it could always hide from someone trying to find it inside their bodies. Kate's not going to like this, but maybe the trio's physical representation is totally human, but their alien energy is almost like a spirit that inhabits their corporeal form. It can come out of them as glowing light, it can move across space as telekenetic energy, it can take on the properties of a CD player, and somehow their human mind directs it. "Could it be extracted from their cells and synthesized? And if it was would it have the same power?" If the e/e is physical it should be detectable. If it's detectable, eventually it should be extractable. Can it be synthesized. Who knows. And when you talk about power, I come full circle to energy, and how do we define energy beings. You're right... I don't like it at all! But I have to admit, it's an excellent idea... very solid theory. Okay... I like it, but I just don't like it for these particular aliens. It makes perfect sense for the show, but in the books, we get the explanation that they have to "nudge" and "push" molecules around to change things, enforcing the idea that they are actually using forces to make things happen other than letting their bodies take over. But those are the books, and this is the tv series... Still, the whole idea that this is just one big experiment bugs me. If they were sent here to find human bodies to take over, does that mean the bodies they are in now were dead humans when they inhabited them, or did the energy just transform into what it saw on Earth? Were their "spirits" engineered on their planet to inhabit human bodies, or did Nasedo create them once he got to Earth? A bigger question: Can Max, Michael, and Isabel ignore this history? If Max had never saved Liz and they'd never encountered any of these clues that, indirectly, she led them to, could they have gone their entire lives living as they had until that day at the Crashdown? Also, why Liz? Was she part of the grand plan somehow as a project the alien race was determined to conquer? If they were looking for a way to possibly take over the human race at a later time, or if they needed a way to continue breeding their race on Earth (after fleeing their dying planet), Liz's body could have been the *lucky* one chosen to test the combination of the alien spirit with the live human one. Of course, I do not want any of the above to be true . I'm just convinced that their souls are way too human to actually be some engineered substance. quote: There's a conundrum here that wont go away, but I don't know that it has to go away. At the level the story's being written we've speculated in far more detail than the writers ever will, and from the science end of it all we'll just have to suspend our disbelief. I have a feeling that there are going to be some really big holes in the logic and we'll just have to ignore them. Yeah, I'm sure they would never be able to explain every little thing we wonder about, unfortunately. There are also probably too many inconsistencies to build one solid theory that could be explained sometime before the end of the series. Leneba       -Posts: 202       Registered: Feb 2000       posted 03-23-2000 06:28 PM SF-- I have a couple of articles on limb formation if you are interested. They are about 4 years old and may not be useful to you. If you are interested, feel free to email me @ itcouldbewirfs@yahoo.com BehrFan       -Posts: 346       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-23-2000 09:33 PM quote: Indirectly I was the one who raised the spectre of Hubble's wife, but you and ROSta kinda ran with the ball. If we assume that Nasedo kills with a purpose, then I just commented that it was interesting that he killed a pregnant woman (SF of SH thread). From what we know there was no reason to kill her. I'm also not sure when it happened, the Silo murder happened in 72?? (early seventies) and Hubble lay low for 30 years until The Convention. I vaguely remember Hubble giving Valenti a time reference on how long he tracked the alien (taking/collecting those handprint photos) and I'm thinking it was about 15 years, which puts the start of the handprints back to the mid fifties. Which means Hubbles wife was killed before Nasedo killed Atherton. Obviously I need to check on that. So whatever he took from her (if anything) it sat around for quite a while. Since the autopsy showed that Hubbles wife was three months pregnant with a little girl, I think we can safely say that Hubble is not the trio's father. However, Hubbles wife could be their mother. Nasedo could have swiped some immature oocytes before he ran off. Even though I initially brought up this idea, I think it's a red herring, and the show wont explore it. I relly enjoy reading this thread. While most of what's said is too far over my head to comment, I thought I'd reply to the question about Hubble wife's murder. After the Convention episode I created a timeline of important events concerning the crash and Nasedo. Shelia Hubble was killed in 1970. I am making this assumption because that is the year on the license plate in the picture. Two years later, Hubble kills that drifter. I found it odd that Hubble was born in November of 1947. I very much enjoy these threads. I agree that Roswell can also be educational. DocPaul       -Posts: 160       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-23-2000 10:50 PM This discussion thread has been a great distraction. Am I being too much of a science geek yet? Let me know, I can cool it. SF happy to correspond with you off-line on all matters biological. I may have been mistaken in my statement that intron areas were theorized as possibly orienting limb placement etc.... It may have been centrioles? I have a book with a small chick (I think it was a chick with its wing coming out of its head due to experient with splicing of either introns out DNA or centrioles from the cellular makeup.) I'll get back to you off-line if you like. Check out my profile because my e-mail is listed. Just a word of caution, last time I read my e-mail three days ago my inbox had over 1000 e-mails. So if you write please put in a sexy subject line to catch my attention. You know, "Introns, the selfish genes." Geeeez what's sexy to one person, huh? Another answer to your question of heart rate. Perhaps Max's HR was elevated, but its hard to say without patient information baseline. It very important to have baseline information for your patients so that changes are noted. Of course, in the ER it is often hard to note patient baselines since incoming trauma are usually new patients. But, in the case of shock, either traumic or volemic the pulse tends to be described as thready. Shock is a term to describe decreased perfusion and oxygen delivery to the body. Shock presents with a decrease in blood pressure and may result from either a decrease in cardiac output or a decrease in systemic vascular resistance. Three main syndromes leading to shock which are hypovolemic, cardiogenic, and sepsis. As far as pulse goes, if a patient is in shock due to a decrease in perfusion and oxygen delivery, the pulse rate may increase to actively pump more blood to the peripheral area in a compensating method. Late note on introns and exons for those who are challenged by the genetics. Exons are the actively coded genes that produce proteins which make up our enzymes. Introns are thought to have been evolutionarily conserved in our DNA and some introns are considered to have been in some genes at least one billion years. They have no known gene product, but yet they are continued in replication for billions of years of evolution. The question was risen as to why these unproductive genes have continued beyond their possible original use? Theory has it that (Walter Gilbert) introns separate exons (coding regions) into fuctional domains of proteins. These intron areas are conventient splicing regions that allow genes to be rearranged without threatening their gene product. There is much more to say, but I will leave it at this. A good source of information is a book called "Principles of Genetics" by Robert H. Tamarin, 4th edition, 1993 by Wm C. Brown Publishing Company. Check out pages 260-262 on intron evolution theories. DocPaul Elliott       -Posts: 850       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-24-2000 06:42 AM SF: I love the way you discussed and developed the engergy/essence idea. But in the cold (actually warm) light of day, pragmatism is setting in. The idea is ingenious, but I go along with Kate that it isn't quite right for 'Roswell.' For one thing, it makes Max, Isabel and Michael complete freaks, to be blunt about it. This idea would make them a trio of Frankensteins cobbled together from genes plundered from unsuspecting victims. It's a very intriguing idea, but too disturbing and gruesome for this show. The 'soul' Kate talks about (for lack of a better word) really is there in all three characters, and the knowledge that they had come into being this way could only torture and horrify them. Not to mention that this could be enough to make Liz want to 'step back,' no matter how irresistible Max always is. Though it is less sexy and interesting, I really think we're meant to believe they are humanoid aliens. It's possible that they are some kind of alien/human hybrid, but I just can't believe it would be in the way we have been toying with. Still, as you say, there are a number of red herrings, and at least one of them should be genuine and must lead somewhere. One thing I do think the show could and should develop, is the idea of how Liz may be changed biologically because of Max's intervention. It's true that she said she was getting a cold in a previous episode. But maybe her own system is replicating whatever is now inside her. Perhaps we should watch to see if her colds get fewer and of shorter duration in the future! (By the way one corner the show has painted itself into is this idea that MMI don't ever get colds. Sooner or later one of the actors is bound to get one, and you can always tell by actors' voices when this happens. How would the show explain that? Oh, I guess they would ignore it). LSS       -Posts: 840       Registered: Feb 2000       posted 03-24-2000 06:43 AM What great posts!!! Just a quick note: Welcome to the "old-timers" from the SF of SH thread and to all the newtimers (DocPaul, etc). DocPaul--Love your posts...not "geekish" at all! You are our "reality" expert. Though, as Elliot pointed out, our writers may not be as expert in reality as you are. Nevertheless it is legitimate to hold SF accountable in its thought experiments. As I am in Atlanta for Advisory Board Meetings all week-end I will not be able to "add my .02's worth" much beyond quick notes until Monday. But am looking forward to it then immensely. LSS P.S. You know you are obsessed with Roswell when the first thing you check out in your conference center is its business center so you can go on line to crashdown.com!!! [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-24-2000).] SF       -Posts: 88       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-24-2000 10:28 AM DocPaul and Lenaba I e-mailed both of you this morning. Thanks for posting back to me. Arctic Lurker, I too was a big starman fan, and their take on earth virus's is probably a lot more valid than our super immune trio. BehrFan thanks for the details. That then means that Nasedo's killing spree occurred over a fairly short period of time 70 to 72, unless Hubble continued tracking Nasedo after the Silo Murder because he knew the drifter wasn't Nasedo. Good catch on his birth date 1947. Maybe he's an alien from the crash too who's after Nasedo???? Elliott       -Posts: 850       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-24-2000 12:59 PM SF: Am I right in getting from your last post that you are proposing the idea that Hubble was an alien? This is something I considered and rejected while watching 'Convention.' If true, then his pregnant wife would have been carrying a human/alien hybrid. Are we to believe that he knew of his origins, if true? Was he an orphan like MMI, and did discovering the truth make him so bitter he had to track down and kill as many of his own kind as he could find? I don't think so. If an alien, I propose he didn't know it right up until the end. If he had been, he would have 'known' it just as MMI do. But I can't account for the birthdate and other chronologies except that, as you proposed originally, they are just red herrings of no meaning. It's a fun idea though. JKBosco       -Posts: 556       Registered: Jan 99       posted 03-24-2000 02:31 PM Have you ever heard that many American Indians died when the English first came to North America? It was because they didn't have any kind of immunity or natural antibodies against "white man's disease." I think that's why M/M/I "don't get sick." Also, I think things like an MRI could be really scary for the aliens b/c it explains the inside of their bodies, which they have really never seen. Maybe Max could alter his own brain, but he doesn't even know what it looks like! Poor M/M/I! C-unit - Go Biology! We just finished that chapter, and I'm very happy to say I know exactly what you're talking about! Go me, go you, go roswell! Yeah, I'm back now Emily Kate6058       -Posts: 1132       Registered: Jan 2000       posted 03-24-2000 03:17 PM Those of you who read spoilers... check out our counterpart on the spoiler board, there's been a change... ROStaFEHRian Member -Posts: 37       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-24-2000 10:07 PM Hi everyone! Excellent thread and posts. I have so many things I'd like to add the many individual comments, questions and very perceptive theories, but I am at a conference and have so little time. Forgive me if some things below have been discussed further but I have been composing offline in snatches but have not had time to read posts since yesterday night. This is more technical than I like to post but I'm rushing. I'll be happy to clarify and suggest interesting websites, books. I believe that MM&I are human...just more human than human. Perhaps they use more of what we all have. More areas of their brains are active and make different and/or more neurotransmitters. The same of their somatic cells. Perhaps, then, it is not a matter of "alien" genes as much as it is about what parts of their genome are "switched-on". I suspect, as I wrote in a post on the SFofSH thread, that they were created as hybrids. My question then was whether or not the timeline was such that it was possible that they were created using ova extracted from Mrs Hubble. I suggested that perhaps the murders were just a cover for genetic theft and/or other human experimentation that perhaps were less than successful. Theft of ova and hybrid/chimeras are subjects myself and others have discussed quite a bit re the X-Files. For me the primary issue is not the genes themselves, but the REGULATORY aspects of gene expression that may account for some of their powers, ie the regulatory and modificaton proteins. Other aspects I will leave to "sci-fi" and the magic of the "energy/elixir" concept as Elliot expressed so poetically. One can explain a lot of things in terms of very real genetic principles and recent data which support some hypotheses. Theoretically, "immortality" (or at least very delayed aging) and miraculous healing may be achieved, in part, if certain things happen (this list is not exclusive): (1) DNA replicates and is copied with fidelity and regulatory proteins are efficient (2) DNA repair and excision mechanisms are precise, redundant, and specific. These complexes must recognize any and all errors (the human cell has approximatley 1000 hits per day just from oxidative metabolism) and they must be precise at all parts of the cell cycle and pre-, during, and post trascription, and post translation modifications of protein products must be precise (3) the spindle and centromere apparatus remain intact (4) the telomeres at the end of the chromosomes remain intact regardless of number of replication cycles (5) protein modification processes are (6) anti-oxidant molecules and other scavenger molecules are intact and are efficient (7) the immune system, even before it is exposed, is capable of handling any invader. Both cellular and humoral immunity must be much more efficient, diverse and redundant (8) mitochondrial energetics (cell respiration ) remain constant and intact and wastes are efficiently metabolized. It can be hypothesized that our trio have key and unique (or just more abundant) regulatory and repair proteins that have been expressed. These proteins have the capacity to direct other proteins, or they work directly, in ways that may affect nuclear processes that unwind the tightly wound unused DNA from their histone proteins and affect cellular metabolism. Thus "exposed", these "alien" genes are finally expressed. Perhaps, among other things, they code for a neuro-endocrine or neurotransmitter product that stimulated neuron growth and development. Special replication mechanisms overcome any other blocks to gene expression. I can comment more on this later, but they may harness electromagnetic radiation. This ties into healing, heat, molecular vibration/spin/energetics and other bio-physiological principles I know much less about than molecular bio and genetics. This might also tie in the pineal gland, which is sensitive to electromagnetic radiation. It secretes melatonin in a circadian rhythm. Melatonin is thought, among other properties, to suppress cancer (I,e, breast), be a potent scavenger antioxidant and maintain telomere fidelity. ROSta, SF       -Posts: 88       Registered: Dec 1999       posted 03-24-2000 10:10 PM Elliot, I too was reminded of Frankenstien's monster as I typed up the idea that the trio were cobbled together from the DNA of multiple individuals plus some of Nasedo's alien essence. Like you and Kate, I agree that it won't fit into the Roswell universe. If we feel confident enough to accept that the writers are with us on our perception of the Roswell universe, then we have to also rule out alien/human hybrids that involve any kind of human govt. conspiracy (X-Files-ish kinda stuff), because inherent to that story line would be cobbled together individuals. So for MMI's mental heatlh, if they are hybrids, we still want them to have a Mom and Dad, and potentially some good old fashioned romance. Now if Nasedo is the only alien who survived the crash, and we feel confident our trio aren't triplets, then we're instantly into a bit of mental anguish for the trio. The only way I can see Nasedo having loving relationships with their Moms is as a polygamist shapeshifter doing a mad dash from home to home as three different men. It could make for pretty comedic flashbacks. After a shapeshift, Nasedo could pop blue tic-tacs, and we could all subliminally think of viagra. Of course, I'm just joking. Elliot I tend to agree with you that they're 100% alien, they just happen to be human-like aliens. I do find that a bit disappointing. I'm a big fan of really alien aliens (E.T., Yoda, Worf), maybe that's why I'm the only one who's trying to put a tragic spin on Nasedo. He's like the only real alien we have left on the show, and making him absolutely evil, which is what I think is going to happen, makes him so one dimensional. HUBBLE AS AN ALIEN: The majority of what Hubble said to Max and Valenti makes no sense if he's actually an alien. I haven't read the books, but from what others have written, I gather that two aliens survive the crash, one evil (Nasedo?) and one tracking the evil one. Maybe Hubble was the alien tracking down Nasedo and his Frakensteinian experiments, but I sincerely doubt it. If Valenti actually killed Hubble, then we might get some autopsy information at some point. quote: Originally posted by Kate6058: If they were sent here to find human bodies to take over, does that mean the bodies they are in now were dead humans when they inhabited them, or did the energy just transform into what it saw on Earth? Kate, your questions point to the big problem of the energy alien idea. I think we all have different concepts of what an energy alien is, but we'ed all agree they're really different to us, and I'm not very attached to any of the reasons we've discussed for them taking on a corporeal form. The whole metamorphosis/cocoon idea is clever, but what's the motivation behind it? If we could come up with a reason why, then potentially the energy beings could metamorphosize into humans and not remember that they did. I don't think Roswell is going to parallel some Invasion of the Body Snatchers story line, so taking over dead bodies is out of the question. quote: Originally posted by Kate6058: Were their "spirits" engineered on their planet to inhabit human bodies, or did Nasedo create them once he got to Earth? Kate if we're just talking about what I posted in this thread, then I think we're running into a semantics problem. Instead of me using the term spirit, I'll use the term plasma or water, e.g., their alien energy is like water making up 70% of their corporeal form. My idea was that the alien energy that is incorporated into their human body is a physical part of their body, but I used the word spirit because I was playing around with a ghost image concept, i.e., the physical human-like being, the alien ghost image of the human likeness (made up of blue energy, resident in and part of the physical human likeness) and one mind directing both aspects of the individual. To put it another way, human's are 70% water, our aliens are 70% alien energy/essence. The blue energy/light we see isn't their soul, it's just an aspect of who they are as individuals, and it happens to be the aspect that we the audience identify as alien. However, each of them as individuals is much more than this one aspect that we can label. So, was just the blue energy engineered on their home planet or here on earth? I'd say no. Were Max, Isabel and Michael (blue energy inclusive) bioengineered for specific roles in their new colony on earth as discussed on the SF of SH thread? The idea holds water. Did Nasedo bioengineer them here on earth with the blue energy inside of them? Possibly. It doesn't look like they were bioengineered with human components (the hybrid idea), but maybe Nasedo cloned them from himself and then altered their molecular structures to create separate individuals. MMI's human self perceptions aren't going to enjoy that idea very much either. I've yet to see a storyline that kinda works that doesn't leave MMI a little shattered when they find out the truth about their past. ROStaFEHRian Member -Posts: 37       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-24-2000 10:28 PM (continued) Melatonin may affect cellular signaling processes or, via melatonin receptors on the DNA, may have important influences on aging, cancer, immune function. The pineal is a neuroendocrine organ that secretes melatonin on a circadian rhythm. The gland is thought to be very sensitive to electromagnetic radiation. Hypothesized benefits of melatonin production included suppression of cancer, modulation of the immune system, cell-signaling behavior, and most importantly, melatonin is a potent anti-oxidant, and therefore it may contribute to longevity (ie,?telomerase stability). Current investigation in breast cancer research is focusing on electromagnetic fields (ie, caused by power lines) and cancer. So much is yet unknown about regulatory proteins and cell signaling mechanisms that direct the sequence and pace of growth, development, and the migration and/or differentiation of cells and tissues from fertilization on. There are sequences active at certain stages and turned off, sometimes permanently, later on in development. What makes cells like neurons stop dividing? Little is known of homeotic box (or hox) genes. Hi, DocPaul, glad to see you here; I'm glad you were here Wed-Thur and took the challenge of explaining certain things. Barbara McClintock (Nobel 1983) coined the terms transposons/ transposable elements, also known whimsically as "jumping genes", to describe those mobile genetic insertion sequences that do not have a fixed chromosomal location. Her research was with maize, but had profound implications for genetics. Perhaps the genome is more flexible than we think. It is believed that the phenomenon jumping genes may be a key to the development of larger organisms throughout evolution. Most of us know of insertion sequences in bacteria, and the survival benefit of antibiotic resistance conferred by these plasmids. Environmental stressors may cause inserted sequences to migrate from species to species, or even within the same organisms' genome. This is well known (ie, interspecies jumping) in lower forms, plants and insects, but it is not easy to in prove eukaryote cells. Transposons have their own controlling (ie,mobility) elements. There is survival benefit to some repetitive sequences. Multiple copies of some genes may prevent lethal consequences if one of the other genes takes a mutation hit that destroys gene function or the gene product is formed by is less- or ineffective in function. Some repeated genes are transcribed, the product made in large quantities, and rapidly degraded if not used. But for the most part, genes that are not used, "switched off" , or just plain useless junk, remain tightly wound except during cell division. Indeed, some evolutionary theorist thinks this is the etiology of great evolutionary leaps. And there are a group of theorists who propose "the selfish gene" theory (see Richard Dawkins and others). Stated very simply, this theory proposes that some transposable elements intentionally jump not randomly, but for their own survival. Or they preferentially, and selfishly, replicate themselves in the genome without influencing natural selection. We may hypothesize that most of our genome that is not making proteins (ie, the junk) is the result of viral insertions (DNA and retroviruses) that rendered genes useless, mutations (UV light, free radicals, normal cell mechanisms including beneficial repair systems that repair too effectively as well as those that don't) that had no lethal effect, and insertion sequences which also may insert into a gene and render it useless. Some viruses may insert near cell regulatory elements with disastrous consequences for the host . Most viruses just like to insert and cause no problem. Insertions also can take place in the germ cells, in the zygote or embryo. That is irrelevant with asexually producing species. Over the course of evolution, the cell has devised structural, packaging, and regulatory strategies to deal with this. There is much sequence homology in much of the genomes across species that this is possible. Genetic repair and modification protein complexes are very similar across species,, from bacterial to humans. Then there are those who speculate that these extra genes were part of a master plan of extraterrestrial beings. Perhaps the viruses were extraterrestrial in origin. Perhaps the organic material hitchhiking in the massive dust clouds or on comets and meteors seeded the earth. It is hard to define "alien" when "alien" may have been here from the beginning. We are all from made from the same star-stuff as Carl Sagan was fond of saying. Aliens-R-Us. Appreciate any comments and any revisions from those who are closer to this stuff than I am. Cellular organelles may have been ancient free living organisms, ie, the human mitochondria, that decided they benefitted from making themselves at home in other cells and the host cell benefitted or took no biological notice. Some insertions and invasions were lethal to both host and guest. I agree with Elliot that a lot has to be taken on faith; this is sci-fi, a genre of which human-alien mating has been a staple. But I find speculations to be a fun exercise Falling-asleep-over-the-computer ROStaFEHRian Goodnight all. ROStaFEHRian Member -Posts: 37       Registered: Mar 2000       posted 03-24-2000 10:43 PM Hi LSS! What a coincidence. I'm in Atlanta, too, until early Sunday. Conference at the Hilton. Email me if you can (I have to add it to my profile if I can figure out how. I will be closing this email account, though, by April 1st). ROSta LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-25-2000 08:03 AM delete [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-25-2000).] LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-25-2000 03:24 PM Bump ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 27      Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-25-2000 03:35 PM delete [This message has been edited by ROStaFEHRian (edited 03-27-2000).] Nemo      Posts: 217      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-27-2000 07:48 AM LSS, and everyone, I appreciate these threads and look forward to the upcoming reviews/discussions of other episodes. I also appreciate everyone's efforts to avoid mentioning spoilers; I can see that must often be difficult. LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-27-2000 10:32 AM Now that I'm back in the office--here is the first part of my promised "$.02"!! Some comments and questions on your posts: C-unit: About Nesedo collecting DNA for genetic re-engineering of podsters. Really interesting idea--but would donors have to be killed in order to obtain these samples (help me out here science types)? If that is what he is doing, and there were non-violent means to achieve the same ends, then this is an argument for the "evilness" (or plain stupidity)of his character. DocPaul--On chromosomes and mating practices: Interesting discussion on chromosomes and sperm. In terms of the later, at least one Roswell fanfic has explored the idea of Max's sperm being impervious to human birth control (the pill). So in this scenario we have alien sperm that not only can break through the human ova's protective layer, but whose viability thwarts other barriers as well. As for alien mating practices, I would not be surprised if coming episodes explore that topic of discussion (See--I'm being good here--no clues to content--just vague references to general directions.) Elliot: As for whether or not M/Mich/I know how their blood is different from others--I agree with your conclusion that they wouldn't. In the TV series, Max isn't particularily interested in biology. Remember the conversation he has with his Mom and his lack of enthusiasm? Although he is an honors student, his primary interest in biology appears to be his lab partner! As for Michael and Isabell--neither have shown much interest/aptitude in science. Only Liz is adept in the sciences--and even she doesn't seem to follow up on her discovery in Pilot (though she does follow up on issues concerning astronomy, i.e. her conversation with teacher, her telescope, etc.). HEART OF ICE: As for justifying your time to your boss--I KNOW what you mean. I actually had to have my Dept. Chair help me in downloading the SF threads to my c-drive so I could print them out without the black background. By the time I finished explaining WHY I was at this site, I apparently did such a good job that he actually supports my time at crashdown.com --talk about lucky! Leneba: Hadn't thought of the mental/spritual dimensions of the incident in Balance--any ideas as to what this might entail (keep in mind that the same thing happened to Nesedo)? Have to go to class--will post more questions/comments directed to previous posts this afternoon. peanut_and_me      Posts: 136      Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-27-2000 11:57 AM LSS -- would you happen to remember which fanfic addresses the whole alien sperm vs. human birth control issue. I'd love to read it.... Thanks.... PS. I'd hope that in the future they'd let max & Liz get together so that they could tackle these issues on the show. I mean, I'm sure it's scary/confusing/embarrassing enough for teens to discuss this, but imagine trying to deal with it with your alien boyfriend! Makes for a good plotline.... LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-27-2000 12:05 PM Rosta: Am between classes and wanted to dash off a quick reply (by the way sorry we couldn't hook up in Atlanta; post your e-mail address on your profile and I'll get in touch off board). OUR ALIENS AS ENHANCED HUMANS. Your idea of our aliens having "switched on genomes" made me reconsider just WHAT IT IS (if anything) that makes our aliens physically "alien". I came up with the following aspects that, thus far, distinguish them: 1) THEY CAN MOVE OBJECTS. 2) THEY HAVE FLASHES/CAN SEE THINGS 3) THEY CAN MANIPULATE MATTER/HEAL 4) THEY CAN DREAMWALK 5) THEY GLOW (when healing someone; NOTE I am referring only to our trio here--not to Nesedo) Of the above powers--what is beyond the purview of humans? Actually--if one takes into account rumors of the paranormal, only parts of (3) and the whole of (5) represent something radically "other". Telekinesis can account for (1) and for aspects of (3) [I'm thinking of Kate's reminder to us that the book Max "nudges" and "moves" molecules]. Telepathy, it could be argued, could account some of (3), i.e. flashbacks of a person's life [telepathy that could delve beyond the surface thoughts, that is). And it might explain (4), dreamwalking (combined with astral projection?). As for glowing--the only time that I know that we have seen it with our trio is when Max "scans" Liz (SH)--an action that has no counterpart that I know of in the paranormal (or does it?). Rosta--later in your post you refer to the split between alien essence and human matter. Perhaps the latter has been enhanced and represents the logical development of latent paranormal human powers, while the former is truly "alien" (and explains the powers that range beyond the paranormal)? [NOT that I ever think that Roswell will delve this deeply into the background behind their own story elements--but its fun to speculate.] LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-27-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-27-2000).] LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-27-2000 12:53 PM Peanut_and_me Let's see--I think it was Linda's "Sense of Completion" (the sequel to Us Six Against the World" (I'm doing these titles by memory so I might have a word or two off). It becomes an issue when Liz gets pregnant even though she is on the "pill". [Max also reminds Kyle of this...opps I shouldn't go any further, I'll ruin the story for you!] LSS peanut_and_me      Posts: 136      Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-27-2000 01:07 PM Thanks LSS..... Leneba      Posts: 184      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-27-2000 01:09 PM LSS, Regarding the mental/spiritual implications of Michael's illness in The Balance... I really think it's tied in to the symbolism of the 'Sweat'. I'm going to talk to an Indian friend of mine (she doesn't like the term Native American) and see if she can give me any insights. I think the ritual has to do with purification, which would be interesting considering Nasedo becomes deathly ill immediately. I'll try to do more research in the next few days and have that in mind when I watch The Balance again. I'll probably comment more on this topic on Thursday. LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-27-2000 03:58 PM Leneba: I'm looking forward to hearing what you find. By the way, I will start a "SF of Balance" thread Wed night so you might want to post on that. To the posters who identified Hubble as alien on the basis of his birthdate (1947)-- I have to admit that literarily it IS an odd "fact" to have in the show (unless it is purposely misleading or simply coincidence). But I've got to share this with you--I was born in 1947 (but apparently have weathered better than Hubble). Since my children found out the date of the Roswell crash, they have kidded me unmercifully. I know teens often feel alien-ated from their parents...but now mine have one more reason to explain why Mom's ideas are different from theirs!!! LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 05:21 AM bump Zolina Member Posts: 31      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 06:04 AM ALIEN BIOLOGY: here's my theory. I think the aliens may be part human. If other speculations are true that they came from a dying planet and are in search of a new home, maybe their natural forms could not survive on earth. So, they had to become part human in order to live here. That would explain why they look so human and appear to have similar internal anatomies. LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 06:42 AM Zolina: That would be the "bioengineered" option that has been mentioned. If this is the case then the question arises of the motivation behind this engineering. You mentioned one option--survival of the species in the wake of some cosmic catastrophe that destroyed their own home. Can you think of other reasons to create genetically human look-a-likes? [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-28-2000).] Nemo      Posts: 217      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-28-2000 06:44 AM I think this fits neatly with Max's line at the UFO Convention: "Save me! I'm a human trapped in an alien body!" LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 07:10 AM Nemo: Absolutely!!! Kate on the SF of SH thread has remained adamant that whatever the biological origins of our aliens, their socialization has made them "human" hence the appropriateness of Max's words in "Convention". If you want to track this nature/nuture discussion you might look at the thread Sf of SH (sorry I don't remember the pages the discussion is on). Zolina Member Posts: 31      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 07:12 AM LSS: there could be many other reasons. 1) The aliens could be a scietific race, trying to blend in to our culture to study it. 2) They could be a war-like race, trying to learn about us so that they can take over our planet. 3) They could be criminals/prisoners in their own race, trying to hide amongst us humans. 4) Another race could be trying to destroy our alien's race, hence they need a place to hide. 5) Maybe some aliens found our world, fell in love with it, and decided they wanted to live here and become more like humans, lol. Of course, all of these assume that our 3 aliens were lost somehow and cut off from their society. LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 07:30 AM And if they weren't "lost" but "sent"??? Would that add anymore options? Zolina Member Posts: 31      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 07:45 AM If they were "sent", their purpose could be do to any of those things. Most likely it could be to hide from someone. This could be why they don't know who they are. If they don't know about their own race, it would hard to give themselves away and force them to hide what they are. I just had another thought too. Skipping ahead to "The Balance", when Michael got sick, it took awhile for the symptoms to show up. But Nasedo got sick intstantly after swallowing the Indian drink. Maybe this is because Nasedo is an alien pureblood, but Michael is an alien-human mix. Nemo      Posts: 217      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-28-2000 07:57 AM I accept Elliott's suggestion that we may expect the writers to take liberties with science for a more dramatic story. It looks as if Roswell astrophysics is like that, so I imagine Roswell biology etc. will be that way also: an intriguing blend of some known scientific principles plus fantasy where needed. I like the wider range of possibilities this brings in. I share the sense that M/M/I's human resemblance may be the result of someone's bioengineering since 1947. I suspect the motive for this engineering was to allow the next-generation aliens to get by without relying on shape-shifting, which looks exhausting. (So that the disguise is built in instead of put on.) And maybe whoever is doing this is pretty ruthless. (Not, maybe, a Frankenstein "patch job"; didn't Hubble's photographs number two males and one female? I fear there may be some horrid significance.) But there may be an unintended consequence: that M/M/I are "humanized" in other ways besides appearance. So the aliens may have their own "generation gap" to contend with. LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 08:07 AM Nemo: Great idea (so that the disguise may be built in instead of put on). Yes shapeshiftinig does appear to be exhausting (we still don't know what is in that small container--pills or tic tacs/sugar). I can't remember anyone making quite that argument before! LSS Elliott      Posts: 778      Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-28-2000 08:09 AM Virtually all the questions/speculations on this page of the thread hinge on one thing: the true role of Nasedo in all this. The slippery shape-shifter clearly has the answers (well I think it's clear. I guess it could turn out he doesn't know much more than Max, Michael or Isabel). Perhaps we can focus on his possible role a bit today? Putting aside spoilers, the 'evidence' we have to date suggests he is a sinister figure. The strongest evidence for this is actually circumstantial: Max has become convinced he is evil, and Max is in every way the moral barometer of the show. He has the wisdom and intuition of the just, and his 'feelings' must be given weight. Apart from intuition, Max is basing his opinion on what he learned about 'the fourth alien' from Hubble, namely that Nasedo (assuming he is the fourth alien) is a serial killer of sorts. This seemed to be borne out in 'Blind Date' when someone (we can assume Nasedo, though it may be another) seemingly summoned by Michael and Isabel, burned a photo of our beloved trio. It was more forcefully borne out in 'Independence Day' when Nasedo killed Hank (after apparently torturing him) and briefly assumed his identity in order to explain his permanent disappearance. My question is this: Is it possible that Nasedo is a kind of avenging angel for our kids? May he have just killed over the years out of self-defense or in order to ensure a biological imperative we don't yet understand? Might he have killed Hank because he was enraged and in despair at the belated knowledge that Hank had abused Michael all of his life? Was the torture a kind of malicious punishment for this? Personally, I don't buy this, but I'm asking the question. The idea (that some have put forth) that Nasedo was somehow in charge of the kids' genesis makes me very uncomfortable. I don't like him having anything to do with MMI. But I will agree that the knowledge that he might be MMI's father (or at any rate, Max's) makes a kind of ironic 'Star Wars' sense re the Darth Vader/Luke Skywalker connection. That good can come out of evil because of a loving, principled upbringing is a cherished American myth. And Max is in every way the Ideal Son. Personally, I'd rather think that Nasedo landed in advance of the experiment or accident that brought MMI to Earth but that he opportunistically has involved himself with them. P.S.: I also really like Nemo's idea. And this reinforces the thought that the trio can expect danger from two fronts: the government agency that knows about them and has already sent Topolsky to root Max out, and a renegade, evidently one of their own kind, who has not revealed himself but is clearly intent on manipulating them to his own ends. [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-28-2000).] Zolina Member Posts: 31      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-28-2000 08:27 AM Here's my theory on Nasedo. I don't think the 4th alien/shapeshifter that killed Hank is nasedo. When I rewatched the episode "River Dog", I noticed the River Dog told Max Nasedo thought he was being hunted by someone. I think the shapeshifter came to Earth to find Nasedo and he is the one who has been killing people. As to who the father of MMI is or where exactly they fit in all this, I really have no clue. Nasedo could have been trying to hide MMI, but then why is the shapeshifter not approaching them? Then again, the shapeshifter might be trying to use MMI to find Nasedo, thinking that one day Nasedo will show himself to them. Who knows? Elliott      Posts: 778      Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-28-2000 08:33 AM Zolina: Interesting detail that I don't remember from that episode. But the person chasing Nasedo may have been Hubble. Or some government person like Topolsky. The fact that the person chasing him is actually another alien is provocative, though. ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 27      Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-28-2000 08:51 AM Good morning everyone I'm on the run so this is brief. Riverdog, in one scene when he is talking to Max, spoke of Nasedo as one he and his people came to trust. That speaks volumes. Then he says (I'm paraphrasing) that Atherton was killed by Nasedo. BUT he then backs away from being definitive and says he really did not actually witness this act. This suggests that there may be at least 2 "nasedos" and the one known to RiverDog has had his identity co-opted and has been on the run from the government and others who, perhaps, share his place of origin. Rosta Elliott      Posts: 778      Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-28-2000 09:50 AM I strongly recommend that everyone read the transcribed Jason Katims interview listed in the 'News' section of the Crashdown home page. It is extremely interesting and revealing in one particular -- and this is not a spoiler as it deals with something from 'Independence Day.' SQUANTO: PLEASE DELETE THIS ABORTED POST. IT WAS AN ERROR. In discussing the plot of that episode, Katims says [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-28-2000).] Elliott      Posts: 778      Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-28-2000 09:54 AM I strongly recommend that everyone read the transcribed Jason Katims interview listed in the 'News' section of the Crashdown home page. It is extremely interesting and revealing in one particular -- and this is not a spoiler as it deals with something from 'Independence Day.' In discussing the plot of that episode, Katims says this is a show "where you see someone protect Michael by shape-shifting into Hank." Protect Michael? It never occurred to me that what Nasedo did was anything but nefarious. But here is Katims saying he was protecting Michael. This certainly suggests that Nasedo is more ambiguous than I thought. Of course he may have been 'protecting' Michael in order to gain his trust and have him in his thrall. [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-28-2000).] SF      Posts: 76      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-28-2000 02:42 PM bump stargazer__2000      Posts: 150      Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-28-2000 05:37 PM I just wanted to say I really enjoyed this thread, even though my head is now hurting, and I need a drink . I will try to read the SF of SH which eludes me on the message board. I have a few questions that have bugged me and I don't believe anyone has answered,at least on this thread. First, can Isabel or Michael heal? I mean if this glowing plasma is inside of them all, they should be able to. Then why didn't they 'try' to heal Max's injuries in BB? Also, why can't we take a simple approach, I believe the pods were a way for them to survive the long trip here,and/or metamorphasis into human form. why do they have to be made up from victim's dna ie the frankenstein theory or be hybreds? Even though the hybred theory is a close second with me. I only bring this up because it seems you must not have resolved the issue on the very long SF of SH thread. I think SF asked what reason would they have for metamorphasis? Well,if they were squid like creatures they couldn't just walk down the street. And they might not breath air etc...Why not shapeshift you say? Has anybody discussed the fact that the shapeshifter might have to kill in order to assume the shape of someone else ie Hank? And this might be against the aliens code of beliefs, being we all love Max's caring nature. As for the fourth alien or Nasado or the shapeshifter, River Dog never calls him anything but "the Man", now I know I missed a show where they actually named Nasado,but it just seems there can be more than one adult alien, some good,looking out for the trio and some bad and people are confusing river dogs nice "man" with the hank killing Nasado. Can someone tell me when Nasado was first named/seen ? thanks Nemo      Posts: 217      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-28-2000 06:57 PM Stargazer_2000, I believe the term Nasedo, meaning 'Visitor' in River Dog's language, was introduced in the episode named River Dog. The spelling varies and I don't know what's correct. More importantly, we don't really know whether there is only one or possibly more than one adult alien. I wish we could invent convenient names to let us discuss the two-alien scenario consistently (X did this / Y did that, even if we don't know whether X = Y). One reason I suspect there's more than one adult alien is that our recent shapeshifter acquaintance (in SH) seemed to want the orb found, but apparently didn't know where it was, as if it had been hidden by someone else. [note added later]: I admit this reason is weak. I think ROSta's reason given above is much stronger. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-28-2000).] SF      Posts: 76      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-28-2000 07:34 PM stargazer__2000, I was asking the metamorphosis question in relation to the energy being idea. What would be the motivation for such an advanced energy alien to take on human form. The energy alien idea was explored at length on the SF of SH thread. There doesn't seemed to be much of a concensus as to what an energy alien would be, and the topic was inconclusive. As you mentioned the metamorphosis could be from one type to another (squid to human), that was kinda brought up on SF of SH, but it never really went anywhere, and as an idea it has a lot of potential. Do the aliens metamorphosize because of environmental cues? Were they destined to metamorphosize to a human form after they came to earth, or did circumstances force the metamorphosis? Nemo Member Posts: 217      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-28-2000 07:57 PM Some loose ends: 1. Hubble's 1947 birthdate (Nov. 17?). I don't think it means he might be an alien, it's hard to see how that could make sense. Yet I don't think it's without significance. I believe 1947 marks the beginning of the modern UFO era. (Suddenly reports of sightings started pouring in from everywhere, after that first one around Mt. Rainier. Anyone know the exact date of that one? Does it match?) What could be a more fitting birthdate for the man who lived and died under a UFO fixation? 2. Is Hubble dead? I think so, by the sheriff's actions after the shooting. Before deciding how to handle the situation, he immediately checked Hubble's pulse. If he had found Hubble still alive, I believe his priorities would have been (1) remove all weapons, (2) get medical aid ASAP. Also, he would not have been free to tell Max "You were never here" if there was a chance of Hubble's surviving to contradict him. 3. About magnets, as used in magnetic-resonance imaging. I see no reason for Max to be more concerned about magnetic fields (dc or high-frequency, both used in MRI) than other people. So I think he was just concerned about what the imaging might reveal. Also, every minute in the hospital is a chance for something else about him to be noticed that might be difficult to explain. 4. How does the shapeshifter's assuming Hank's identity protect Michael? Without that cover story to the sheriff, Hank's disappearance would be viewed as a probable murder, with Michael as prime suspect. (In fact, if the shapeshifter is unconcerned about Michael, he doesn't even need to hide the body. He won't be pursued, who can recognize him?) Still, his concern to keep Michael out of prison may not be from kindness; he may just wish to use him for something. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-28-2000).] stargazer__2000      Posts: 150      Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-28-2000 08:52 PM Thanks for info . Just my 2 cents on Nasado and Michael. If he needed one of the trio to lead him to the orb and he didn't know which one would do so, he was really just 'protecting' his own interests. And my last question for tonite is : Do you think it was Nasado's shadow or our missing alien's that passed over them as they lay sleeping (if it was Nasado, he could have taken the orb)? Now Im going to rewatch River Dog. Nite LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-29-2000 06:06 AM Nemo: concerning your first point... You are right that the Nov date has no particular significance (at least that I know of). The Mt. Ranier sighting by Kenneth Arnold took place on June 24, 1947 (it was from this that the term "flying saucer" was coined). The Roswell "crash" took place July 4, 1947. So yes--Hubble (the character) was born in a "stellar" (ouch) year for UFO ethusiasts!!! LSS Elliott      Posts: 778      Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-29-2000 06:30 AM Stargazer_2000: To answer a couple of the questions you asked last night which I don't think were addressed . . . In "Into The Woods" Michael heals River Dog's broken ankle. It has been made clear a couple of times (in that episode and in "Independence Day") that Michael hasn't had much experience using his powers and hasn't learned to refine them yet. Since Max and Michael have the power to heal, I think we have to assume Isabel does too. About Max's bruises when Kyle's friends beat him up: that always bothered me too, but I think Max didn't want to arouse further suspicion by getting rid of the visible signs of the beating that Kyle's friends would have expected to see. And perhaps psychologically there was an element of masochism here. Maybe he wanted Liz to see him that way and know what happened and what he suffered because of her. I do think others have raised the possibility that Nadedo must kill to shaft-shift, and that therefore this would be a big hurdle for our Trio. stargazer__2000      Posts: 150      Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-29-2000 10:22 AM Thank you Elliott, but I was referring to BB. I know the bruises had to stay. But after the car crash I expected Isabel/Michael to glow over Max's injuries to check for something to repair. About the blood thing I too never had blood tested until an adult and they didn't even break it down into hdls/ldls. I was wondering, if they never saw their blood how'd they know it was so different except for Liz's little "spit test" and max told M/Is ?. Or they just 'hide everything' is my theory. Elliott      Posts: 778      Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-29-2000 12:27 PM Re "Blood Brothers": I assume that because Max had already been taken to the emergency room, neither Isabel nor Michael dared heal him immediately, once he'd been admitted and examined. As it is, his natural healing powers cleared up his injuries rapidly, to the surprise of his doctor. But obviously the writers are feeling their way with this issue as they go. If this ever happened again, Liz would probably know to sit tight until Max came to, or else she would first summon Is or Michael to help. Nemo      Posts: 217      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-29-2000 11:02 PM LSS, concerning what's in that tic-tac box: I wonder whether it's just pain pills. Maybe all that dislocation hurts for awhile. SF      Posts: 76      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-31-2000 10:29 AM Nemo, I thought something similar. If it's valid, that implies that alien physiology benefits from human pain killers. It could have been a multi vitamin or specific macro/micronutrient that Nasedo needed to be replenish after the change. stargazer__2000      Posts: 150      Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-31-2000 10:58 AM I haven't seen the tic-tacs yet,(missed shows) but the discussion brought to mind the Star trek episode about the "salt monster". Remember Nancy , the doctors old girlfriend, on an arid plant that kills by extracting salt from people in order to live ? Well maybe the alien extracts something from his victims? Any autopsy info? LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-23-2000 11:33 AM SF- I just noticed that this morning. I'd been so-o-o careful too. But all is NOT lost. I downloaded the whole thing last week and still have it on disk and in hard copy. I am thinking about editing it and doing a "Best of the SF of (episode]" thread or archive. I have sent Darien 4 SF reviews and am working on another 3. Hopefully they'll be up next week sometime. I will see where the best place is to post the material I glean from the SF of SH thread. LSS JanetMG      Posts: 164      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-23-2000 02:18 PM I have the link to the sci fi of SH thread if anyone wants it. I just used it to get there, but wasn't able to post a reply on it (to bump it). http://forums.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/005320-7.html Piper88      Posts: 116      Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-23-2000 03:39 PM JanetMG-- WAY TO GO!!! How did you find it? When I did a search it wouldn't come up. Does this mean that it has been "archived"? LSS Nemo      Posts: 217      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-23-2000 04:39 PM JanetMG, thanks for the link. It seems to work for all but the first page. I hope that this thread can be archived. Piper88      Posts: 116      Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-23-2000 04:55 PM Nemo- I have an inquiry in to Darien about this. Will let you know what he says. LSS Nemo      Posts: 217      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-23-2000 05:17 PM Thanks, LSS/Piper88. I also have a copy of the .html file set including the first page, if there's any need. SF      Posts: 76      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-23-2000 05:46 PM Thanks for the link JanetMG. I hope we can at least keep it archived for a while. There are just too many great ideas on it. JanetMG      Posts: 164      Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-24-2000 03:59 AM LSS--Laziness has its purposes, sometimes. I have all the Sci Fi threads bookmarked & (so far) the bookmark still works. Nemo--If you have a chance, I'd appreciate it if you would e-mail me the first page. My e-mail address is jmg_new@msn.com. Thanks! [This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 04-24-2000).] LSS      Posts: 676      Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 06:08 AM Bump All times are PT(US) Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.45b