EOTW DISCUSSION: SUMMER '03

This Forum discussion began with thread # 2730 on the Sci-Fi Channel BB.

Thanks to Skovde for sending the Word-formatted discussion to therealshapeshifter.

The new discussion begins with Scifi Roswell BB thread #2849.

Hi

Im new to Roswell but I am kind of confused about something. In the episode Max in the City, at the end, Max asks Liz if she slept with Kyle. She kind of nods her head but doesn't give him a answer directly. Then he says ok and sort of smiles "as if" he knows she didn't sleep with Kyle. Ok fast foward to Departure when Max again asks Liz if she slept with Kyle and is surprised that she says no.
Ok now my confusion. Did he know or not. I haven't got a chance to see many of those following episodes yet so maybe they explained this point and I just didn't catch it. I was kind of curious on what other people thought.

Reply #1, from roswell112; this is what I think 7/5/03
hi and i think the answer to your question was yes at first but later i think he realized it wasnt true i forgot what happend . bye

Reply#2, from season1rulez; great question, 7/6/03
Finally! An interesting topic. ;) Ok, first off, here's the *number 1* thing to remember when trying to understand/explain Roswell: S1 was written by different people than S2 and S3. (I think maybe even S3 didn't have the same writers as S2, but I'm not for sure. Maybe the vets can remind me! =) Anyways, S1 was created by some VERY talented people! They knew their stuff! Knew how to write amazing stories, build awesome plots, and develop great characters, etc. And all through the show, you will find inconsistencies...because the people who built the "foundation" for a great Roswell, were replaced by evil and incompetent morons! IMO. =( The plots/themes, and characters built in S1 were "chopped to bits," totally screwed up, and basically eliminated in S2. =( They gave SOME effort at repairing, during S3...but weren't especially successful, in a lot of areas. =( I think people always have to keep that in mind, when trying to interpret Roswell.

So, *that* said...on to your question. =) In S1, we're introduced to Max Evans. And over time, we come to know him as a person of very strong character...in almost every regard! This fact is demonstrated repeatedly -- from the way he handles himself, to the way he treats others. We see that Max not only holds an incredible level of strength/maturity within his *own* heart and mind, but also, that he constantly provides that stability for those *around him.* And, for all the "strong suits" Max is shown to possess...probably one of the *greatest* would be his INSTINCTS. The way he goes by his heart. =) How he just KNOWS things -- he can sense them somehow. And then of course, there's his relationship with Liz. =) The bond between them that could never really be explained in words. They're connected to each other, in a way they could never be to anyone else.

Based on who we know Max to be, from the start*...in S1...he would NEVER have believed Liz, when she lied to him about all those things. Lied about not wanting to be with him, die for him, and about sleeping with Kyle. He would know she was lying -- in his *heart.* He could feel it. True, his mind was screaming otherwise! But Max was one to follow his *instincts.* In addition, this was LIZ! I mean, he "saw into her soul"! He knows her. On a very intimate level...like no one else. What would it say...about his instincts, or his connection with Liz...if he looked into her eyes, and *honestly believed* all that stuff she said?? I say, there's NO way he bought it. Not for a second. I think Max was naturally very confused. And had no idea why Liz would lie to him (she shouldn't have)! He only understood that she would not allow their relationship to continue, as it was, at that point. Max knew, all along, that Liz was lying to him...about everything. =( He just couldn't begin to understand why??

Skip to S2. New writers. Total idiots. =( We see a Max with very little emotional, or mental stability. He's very often what you might call "a mess." =( Which you could blame on a lot of things. The people he loves/needs the MOST "betraying" him...lying to him...backing out on him. Just generally being jerks! =( I mean, Max had no support, and was totally alone. Oh, and Tess wass mind-warping the hell out of him! (IMO, anyway...and lots of others. Though not everyone's! lol ;) And, to "close off the deal," Alex died. And Max felt responsible. =( If you know anything about post-traumatic stress...you understand what happened to ALL of the characters, after Alex was gone. Except for maybe Michael, EVERY ONE of them changed. They absolutely lost it. Emotionally, mentally, physically...they were NOT functional. I mean, for all "intents and purposes," they became completely different people! =(

It was a *THAT* point, that Max told Liz "you slept with Kyle!" I don't think S1 Max was really ever gone. Or "dead," or whatever. I think he was always *there*...but was just "shut out." Shut out by stupid writers! Shut out by the loss that can only come from those you love, need, and trust the most "hanging you out to dry"! =( Shut out by the damn mind-warping! Shut out by weakness...making wrong choices/decisions, due to lack of strength/focus. =( Shut out by PTSS. Etc, etc, etc...

So yeah, I say Max KNEW. He always knew. It's just that there were "complications." ;) Ok, sorry that was really loooong, and rambling!! LOL As you can see, I get into this topic! =) Plus, at the moment...there aren't many others to choose from! Feel free to ask for clarification -- if I said something (or a lot of it) didn't make any sense! lol ;)

Reply#3, from roswell4e; your unswer, 7/6/03
in the episode max in the city when max asked liz if she slapt with kayle she noded her had and he sad ok, in this point he belived she slaped with kayle and he forgave her, in the end of season 2 he was suprised when she toled him liz dident slaped with kayle because he belived she did slaped with kayle.
hope that helps

roswell4e

Reply#4, from Shiloh; I agree, 7/6/03
With Season1Rulez in most areas. IMO, Max didn't become weak in S2, it was just a natural consequence of where the writers took the story - which is probably more the arguable point. :) But, considering that that IS where they took the story, everyone has his/her breaking point. Even Max. And Liz had been a source of strength for him that he had never had. She symbolized the normalcy he had always wanted, UNCONDITIONAL acceptance that he thought he'd never know, trust, someone HE could go to when he needed a lift while being the "lift" for the others. She gave him hope for a future he'd never been able to see before.

But Liz had limits, too. And Alex' death crossed the line. She had been stoic with the heartbreak that Future Max demanded - it was a lead weight in her very being, her soul. She was barely treading water emotionally with that issue alone. But, Alex death took her under water. She not only had to deal with her friend's death, but also the knowledge from FM that this could possibly happen over & over to he other friends - including Maria - including Max. It could be the start of what was to come, because FM could not assure her that her sacrifice had actually changed the future enough to avoid the death and heartache that he and FL sought to change! And it WAS because of the aliens! Not necessarily that they DID anything to cause it, but just because they were who and what they were.... and ALSO because they were in this situation because SHE WAS ALIVE! Because Max healed her and aroused the suspicions of all sorts of dangerous characters! I know if it were me, I'd be thinking "Alex would be alive right now if Max had let me die!"

IMO, both of these characters were dealing with such horrendous emotional issues! A healthy adult in real life would have broke under the weight! For most, it would take much less!

Liz was a buzz of emotions she'd never had before - didn't know what to do with or how to handle - when she lashed out (while looking directly into Max' eyes) about it being "YOUR FAULT" that Alex had died. A real double meaning - obviously meaning the aliens' fault in general, but more directly looking straight at Max. Max was trying to cope himself - and Liz, his strength, couldn't be there for him because of her own problems! Her accusations cut him like a knife - first, because he truly felt the same thing deep inside and it was something he wasn't prepared to admit...it hurt too much! - and, secondly, because this knife was coming from the one he trusted more than anyone else! Michael could have said this, or Iz or Kyle or Maria, and he would have simply gotten. But something inside him died when it came from Liz. Bottom line, if you put yourselves in their shoes (and remember - although they seem to be very mature teenagers due to survival needs - they are still only teenagers, facing things that adults would drown in angry outbursts, drugs, alcohol, etc. Being half-alien did not make them superheros - they were half human, too. He needed her to hold him up more than ever at that time. AND she needed HIM just as badly for the same reason! Two weak links spell disaster! And that's what happened. Thank goodness Michael had finally come to grips with his own demons before that - it had made him stronger and he was the only one thinking and acting as rational as possible! (And notice that - in many things, such as Iz going far away to college at that moment, he did agree with Max....He simply approached it differently, more calmly, and she wouldn't listen to HIM either!!!)

I believe he KNEW Liz didn't sleep with Kyle. But he was hurt, angry, frustrated, whatever. I think that, for a while, he wanted it to be true, because then he would be somewhat justified in his anger - which now stemmed from knowing she was right in many way and from fear for everyone else's safety - fear that Alex may have just been the first. I don't think he was surprised when she said she hadn't slept with Kyle - I think he was crushed that he'd "gone along with the plan" and, because of his actions, things were so totally screwed up! He realized that it could've been soooo different. And he realized that the secret that he had known she'd been carrying must be totally heartbreaking for her. JMO. :)

Reply#5, from season1rulez; wow =), 7/6/03
yeah, what Shiloh posted...*so* true! And VERY well said! =) I agree that what happened was a natural consequence to the writers being evil. Although, I still don't think they were consistent with the characters. S1 Max had more "heart" (for lack of a better term) than S2 Max, from my view. I agree that even HE would have a breaking point -- and probably *would* have come to it, in S2. I just feel that it all would've played out differently, if they had stuck with "S1 Max."

Anyway, no kidding, Shiloh...TOO MUCH PAIN! =( Am I the only one who can't understand what the hell was wrong with the writers, that they wanted to create a story like that?!? Maybe it's the Romeo and Juliet thing again? I don't know. All I can say is, I will NEVER get it. =(

Reply#6, from Skovde; Shiloh, I liked that, I'll add some more, 7/6/03
Where did we leave off at the end of the 1st season, and what happened during the summer break?

Max had to endure the white room and the torture... I think I'll repeat that, he had to endure the white room and the torture. He witnessed how easily things could change, he saw Liz get taken hostage by Nasedo, how he almost lost her to the alien mess....right? How could he not be a changed person after that experience, even if just slightly?

Season 1 finale, Max had to come to terms with the realization that they were sent to earth with a cause, a very serious cause. He learned that, basically, the fate of an entire planet was in the balance and that he was a crucial figure in that planet's past and a hope for the future.

How does Liz react? She runs off to Florida, ditching Max and leaving him to sort through the mess on his own, leaving him to his destiny. It's hard to blame her for taking off, though, and you know what? It's hard to get on Max's case as well.

He now knows that he has the added responsibility of returning home to save an entire planet!

Forget about studying for SATs, and choosing a college, he's got to save an entire freakin' planet that he knows very little about, with a wife he doesn't even know.

He has, more or less, always had an alien side that is as unknown to himself as it is to Liz. This is where the rift between Max and Liz began...right at the end of the first season...and it was a natural occurrence, I think.

So, after T.End.O.T.World, Max and Liz begin to go separate ways, each with understandable cause. Their future together, their destiny is challenged. Liz gets closer to Sean and Max gets closer to Tess. As a dreamer, we get a chance to see why Liz's grandma classified them as soul-mates...because they flounder when they are apart, especially when they themselves are the ones pushing each other away. It is tough to watch, but it kinda reinforces various themes.

Reply#7, from Yellow Finch!; Well said, Skovde, 7/7/03
I like your perspective on both characters, Skovde!

Lisamm, you asked whether or not Max knew if Liz slept with Kyle. Max did not know. That is why he repeatedly asked Liz. Liz did not tell Max she had not slept with Kyle. Max asked her directly three times, and each time Liz did not tell Max the truth. Liz let Max think she had slept with Kyle. She did not explain to Max that she did not until the last episode of Season Two, The Departure.

When Max smiles after he asked Liz about sleeping with Kyle after Max returned from New York, it is because Max indicates that he accepts what Liz has done and is willing to be friends with Liz, despite that.

Reply#8, from Shiloh; Bravo Skovde!, 7/7/03
So eloquently said, as usual. :) And I agree with it all. Especially the part about the White Room! Talk about an eye opener for someone who'd been hiding behind the tree for so long!!! Talk about a cause for Post Traumatic Stress and some personality changes! I think that really was the beginning of "a new beginning" for Max....a change from "this could be dangerous" to "this WILL be horrendous" and a more weary & wary outlook on things. But I do feel he was up to the challenge - as long as he had Liz' love.

And I totally agree on the soul mate thing - Grandma Claudia said that, if was was easy, they weren't soul mates. Well, if you look at it from that angle, then they were SOOOOUUUUUUL MATES! :)

A lot of people really came down on Max during that time. I think he actually did pretty good. I mean, how many guys out there would agree to talk their "ex-girlfriend" to the prom, even thought they were now "ex-es" because he caught her in bed with another guy???? Most guys in the real world would be going "Ask KYLE to take you!" And I didn't think he was being mean after Alex died (except, of course, that time he faced off w/Liz at Valenti's house with Tess there - but, come on..... you KNOW you'd have the same attitude in those same circumstances if it really happened to YOU!) He was right. They had no idea who killed Alex or why. They knew Nicholas was still out there somewhere. The FBI still exists. Someone could've been after ALL of them. It was VERY dangerous for Iz to be going so far away alone at that time - for her and for the group. Same with Liz. And she was being very open and brash about her investigation into Alex' death - drawing the attention of the school staff, the flower shop owner, the Swedish Embassy (government). Valenti TOLD Max to DO something about it - not to TRY - but to DO something about it! And he was right that it was dangerous and wrong for her to be taking off to Sweden alone, without telling ANYONE where she was going! I mean, THINK about it. Max tried talking to Iz. He tried compromising with Iz. Michael tried talking to Iz. Being "mean" was not the first approach - it was the last resort! And it was far less "mean" than what could've possibly happened to her if someone truly WAS after them all! Max was irrational??? Iz was leaving the group, which made THEM weaker in case of trouble, and was going far away ALONE, which made her TOTALLY vulnerable, and - in the end, expressed her anger with a public display of her powers in the school hall - in front of a whole bunch of students! That poor guy got slammed into those lockers just because he complimented her! She's mad at Max so she slams some innocent kid in front of everyone?? And people say Max was "mean"????

Max tried to talk to Liz first, too. He didn't "grab" her as his first approach. And he'd been told by Valenti to "do something" about her. Although Liz was on the right track, she wasn't going about it in the most rational way herself! SHE was hurting people, too! Even Maria came down on her for it! What - letting poor Sean take the fall alone for that school break-in....knowing he was still on Probation & would probably have to go back to Juvenile Hall for it....that wasn't "mean"??? It would've effected his whole life - much more than the firm grip on her arm that Max used for only a second effected hers! Is a parent "mean" if they firmly grab a child rather than letting the child get hit by a bus? I know, Liz was not a child, but if people want to come down on Max for irrational and "mean" behavior - I mean, I don't think people can hold him up to one level of standard and let everyone else fly lower - especially Liz! What she was doing was not S1 Liz, either. Out of control and not caring that she was drawing attention. S1 Liz wouldn't have allowed Sean to talk the total fall - she'd have come up with a story about seeing someone sneaking in and that she asked Sean to come with her to check it out or something. S1 Liz was strong, logical, fast thinking, in control, self-sacrificing. She may have still ivestigated, taken chances, but she would have had a thought out plan and would not have endangered the others unnecessarily.

They were all at their breaking points emotionally, dealing with something they had no idea how to deal with. Everyone was going their own way rather than working as a group at a time when the strength of the group was clearly needed. I do believe Max was trying to bring them together the best he could, but his own demons were too strong & he drove them farther away. Until he was alone. And went to the observatory to think - just to think. And the Tiger moved in for the kill!!!!! :)

(PS - sorry for the horrendous spelling and such in my previous post! The tornado sirens were blasting and I tried to hurry to finish before I shut down and headed for the basement! Luckily, all is well! :)

Reply#9, from Skovde; Thanks Y.Finch, & Shiloh, I just rode, 7/7/03
the waves in your wake. 8)

Shiloh->"He was right. They had no idea who killed Alex or why. They knew Nicholas was still out there somewhere. The FBI still exists. Someone could've been after ALL of them. It was VERY dangerous for Iz to be going so far away alone at that time - for her and for the group. Same with Liz. And she was being very open and brash about her investigation into Alex' death - drawing the attention of the school staff, the flower shop owner, the Swedish Embassy (government)."

sko- This all ties in with the basic observation of the change in Max's character. What the viewer should not forget, is what Max would not forget...the torture, his experience with Pierce, having to face the possibility that they would harm Liz, even kill Liz, as Pierce threatened...

So, I think that this is always in the back of his mind, i.e. the worry and concern about any of them getting captured and tortured. It would change his outlook on things. I can imagine that Max must have had a flashback or two back to the white room, especially around the time when Iz and Liz were ready to head off on their own.

Reply#10, from Lisamm; WoW!!!, 7/7/03
Wow!!!You guys are good! One insiteful response after another! Roswell rocks! I can't wait until it comes back <:)

Reply#11, from Skovde; S1rulez, it was a painful crash that, 7/7/03
allowed Max to save Liz in the first place.

S1rulez->"Anyway, no kidding, Shiloh...TOO MUCH PAIN! =( Am I the only one who can't understand what the hell was wrong with the writers, that they wanted to create a story like that?!? Maybe it's the Romeo and Juliet thing again? I don't know. All I can say is, I will NEVER get it. =("

sko-How did Max save Liz?
Think about it, how was the foundation of their amazing run through season one established?

Max saved her life.

Liz was shot. Max happened to be in the cafe at the exact moment she was shot, how?

Well, Max died, he was betrayed by his sister Vilandra. His escape ship was sent to earth and then what, it crashed in a desert. Max was left to incubate in a pod for forty years or so. Then it just so happened that he and his wife were separated. He just happened to wander off into the desert to eventually be picked up by the Evans family.

It is easy to dismiss this back story, even though it is the drum beat to the entire first season. Max would not have ever been able to save Liz if he hadn't died. Now that sounds rough, but look how things progressed for Max and Liz. The entire series is based on the death of the 4 aliens and their crash.

I know that it was an unfortunate mess at times, but, to me, it is understandable, though perhaps not preferable.

But yeah, man, look at the third season opener...Max jumps in the cool refreshing pond in steamy New Mexico, and Liz is about to join him and then zap...he's convulsing. That's like when Michael was convulsing after Riverdog's sweat...it broke up their date then! They never got many breaks...at least the skating rink's ice didn't melt and crack on them. lol

Reply#12, from season1rulez ; Shiloh!!, 7/8/03
Refusing to go to the basement, until you finished your post!?! lol Woman, we always love to hear what you have to say...but watch out for those tornadoes,K?! =( They're nothing to take chances with. =(

So, Skovde...you aren't seriously going to attempt to justify the "Romeo and Juliet philosophy" to ME?! I'm telling you, it's a lost cause...though I'd SO love to see you try. LOL =) That perspective is completely messed up as far as I'm concerned. And when I try to understand what people are thinking, looking at life that way...I just end up shaking my head.

Anyway, Max wasn't separated from his "wife." =( He was separated from his "pre-determined mate"...the partial clone of Zan's wife. And is it even relevant? I mean, it's not like he could've fallen in love with her, just because circumstances changed. Also, Max wasn't really betrayed by Vilandra...ZAN was. And yeah, I think these distinctions are very significant! The aliens on Antar died, like you said. And if they were "re-born," it was in the form of the dupes -- which means they vanished, and were never heard from again! Max, Michael, and Isabelle are human/alien hybrids, and NOT exact clones. Maybe not even *half* so. That's the most important thing. IMO, Roswell proves that "destiny" (the events that happened on Antar) does not make YOU. You make destiny. Or, maybe look at it this way...the things that happen outside of our control, are NOT more important than the things that happened within our control.

"It is easy to dismiss this back story, even though it is the drum beat to the entire first season."

Hmmm...actually, in my eyes, the drum beat to the entire first season is *relationships.* How do human beings respond to those who are different? How do they approach the dreaded *unknown*? Oh, and of course it's about Max and Liz. =) How can you be with someone, when you're sooo afraid of what will happen because of it? And how can you be with them, when life seems to REFUSE it? Obviously, I have a natural bias, in looking for the "focus"...my hatred of Scif! It's easy for me to screw whatever weird, "alien-like" mess they try to throw at me. I could really care less, and would never give it second thought. But, bias or not, the show is still WAY more about "human things," than "alien/Scifi things," IMO.

"The entire series is based on the death of the 4 aliens and their crash."

The crash, yes…obviously. ;) But why say "the death of 4 aliens"? I mean, as opposed to "blind hope"...and IT's crash. ;) Or "genetic engineering?" Or "the courage of those who survived"? You know I could go on with this for hours, right? =D But luckily for you, *I* dislike torture! ;) My point being: yeah, them dying was a major player in the plot. But, there were tons of *other* events, that were equally key. And TPTB could've written ANY part of the story totally differently...so, no matter what, it's always going to come back to "*how cynical* do they want to be?"

"it is understandable, though perhaps not preferable."

Well, couldn't a person say THAT about almost every mistake humanity has ever made, in the entire history of the world? They could -- in fact, they have.

"They never got many breaks...at least the skating rink's ice didn't melt and crack on them. lol"

No kidding! I know. It really sucked, and I would be SO tempted to join KK's crowd ;)...except, we got a good enough ending, IMO. =) And that's worth something! I think "all's well that ends well," which says a lot for this show! And since the writers came around, and at least TRIED to be a little nice, in the end...I kept them off my hit list. ;) hehe... Although actually, that's still pending. Based on if I get what want out of the DVD. lol =)

Reply#13, from Skovde; A UFO crashes in Roswell, 7/8/03
That is the only way Liz doesn't die, unless the gunshot is tied in with the alien crash somehow. Assuming that the gunshot was just a random event that occurred, then the only way that Liz would survive is if Max was there to heal her. Now the only way Max could be there is if he died on Antar. That is the premise of the entire story. The entire background is a tragedy, even for Tess. If Liz doesn't get shot, Max doesn't reveal himself to her and season 1 does not happen. That is how season 1 takes off.

If Max doesn't sneak out into the desert, away from Tess and Nasedo, he doesn't get to save Liz. I wouldn't even know if the "return the heir" subject would even matter that much if Nasedo held onto Max from the start. Makes one wonder if someone wanted to get them away from Nasedo or if Kivahr's plans came into effect at a later time.

s1r-"So, Skovde...you aren't seriously going to attempt to justify the "Romeo and Juliet philosophy" to ME?! I'm telling you, it's a lost cause...though I'd SO love to see you try. LOL =)"

sko- I know. I am just not seeing it as a Romeo and Juliet philosophy, the way you are. I could say that I see Romeo and Juliet in the case of Max and Tess. How they died, and were separated, how Tess fell into Nasedo's clutches and was brought up to betray her husband.

s1r-"Anyway, Max wasn't separated from his "wife." =( He was separated from his "pre-determined mate"...the partial clone of Zan's wife. And is it even relevant? I mean, it's not like he could've fallen in love with her, just because circumstances changed."

sko- Max and Tess were married on Antar, [I don't care what their names were, Max and Tess were married] They were the truer representation of the couple, not Dupe Zan/Ava. The dupes were defective decoys.

It is relevant because they were sent to this planet with a mission to return, not to become a part of human society. It is becasue of the crash and 3 of the podsters leaving the pod chamber that the story became a human/alien drama.

He could've fallen in love with her because we don't know how things would've been different had they all remained together. We don't know what Nasedo would've done to them, if he still wanted to return them to Kivahr at that time.

s1r-"Also, Max wasn't really betrayed by Vilandra...ZAN was. And yeah, I think these distinctions are very significant! The aliens on Antar died, like you said. And if they were "re-born," it was in the form of the dupes -- which means they vanished, and were never heard from again!"

sko- The dupes were mistakes, they screwed up the hybird process. Max and the rest are the intended group that should seek to return to Antahr.

s1r-"Hmmm...actually, in my eyes, the drum beat to the entire first season is *relationships.* How do human beings respond to those who are different? How do they approach the dreaded *unknown*? Oh, and of course it's about Max and Liz. =) How can you be with someone, when you're sooo afraid of what will happen because of it? And how can you be with them, when life seems to REFUSE it?"

sko-And why is there fear? Because he is alien with lots of alien baggage. So why should we be surprised when her fears come to life?

The drum beat is the fact that he is alien with alien powers and alien baggage....That he died on Antar and was "reborn" in a desert with the power to save a girl. It is born out of a tragedy.

The entire 1st season is born out of a tragedy. The entire 1st season is born out of a tragedy. The entire 1st season is born out of a tragedy...but that doesn't seem relevant to Liz, or Max because they don't know about it at the time? It doesn't matter, the only reason Liz and Max are together is because of a major tragic event that happened on Antahr and over Roswell New Mexico, a crash.

s1r-"Obviously, I have a natural bias, in looking for the "focus"...my hatred of Scif! It's easy for me to screw whatever weird, "alien-like" mess they try to throw at me. I could really care less, and would never give it second thought. But, bias or not, the show is still WAY more about "human things," than "alien/Scifi things," IMO."

sko-I like sci-fi, I like the human things. Max and Liz wouldn't be possible, in this story, without sci-fi.

s1r-"The crash, yes…obviously. ;) But why say "the death of 4 aliens"?"

sko-Because if the 4 aliens lived, they wouldn't have been flying over Roswell. They would be on Antahr, far away from Liz.

s1r-"I mean, as opposed to "blind hope"...and IT's crash. ;) Or "genetic engineering?" Or "the courage of those who survived"? You know I could go on with this for hours, right? =D "

sko-They could have come up with some other explanation as to why an alien hybrid grew up in Roswell. I think it works pretty well the way it was done on the show. It is blind hope, they do tackle that issue. The courage of those who survived is also presented.

Sko said-"it is understandable, though perhaps not preferable."

sko- I am saying that I can make sense of why things careened out of control for Max/Liz. It is understandable to me why Max wants to learn more about his past, why Liz has moments of doubt and runs off to Florida, or goes to hang out with Sean, why Tess was a bipolar character.

I would have preferred a tighter story, to explain things better. But I also understand the seasons 2 and 3 were under pressure to change in order to find a comfortable ratings niche. I understand why some of these things happen, but I might not prefer them to happen that way.

Reply#14, from season1rulez ; ok, very tired now…, 7/8/03
sorry if this doesn't make much sense, or has awful grammatical structure, or anything. I'm sleeping at the moment, so I can't really tell! lol

"Max and Tess were married on Antar, [I don't care what their names were, Max and Tess were married] They were the truer representation of the couple, not Dupe Zan/Ava. The dupes were defective decoys. It is relevant because they were sent to this planet with a mission to return, not to become a part of human society. It is becasue of the crash and 3 of the podsters leaving the pod chamber that the story became a human/alien drama."

Noooo...Max and Tess were NOT married on Antar, because they are NOT Zan and Ava. I mean, even if you consider a clone to absolutely the same as the original, in every way, it still doesn't matter...the alien clone was only a PART of them. Other than that, they're human. Yes, some Antarians cloned them, and sent them here "on a mission to return"...but that it NOT a deciding factor. They choose who they will become -- what they will do with their lives, and how they will deal (or not deal) with their "destiny." That's why I was saying it doesn't matter.

"He could've fallen in love with her because we don't know how things would've been different had they all remained together. We don't know what Nasedo would've done to them, if he still wanted to return them to Kivahr at that time."

No way. Not in MY world! ;) I may agree that the term soul-mates is "obscure"...but that doesn't mean it has NO meaning, at all! And one of main things it implies, IMO, is that they could never give their heart to anyone else. Even if they never met each other, and ended up marrying other people, it STILL wouldn't matter. Their lives would never feel complete...they would always lack meaning. Max's heart belongs to Liz, and Liz' heart belongs to Max. Basic "dreamer fact." ;) He could *never* love Tess, or anyone else -- not in that way. Circumstances don't change the connection between Max and Liz. It exists because it DOES...because they're "meant." And that will always be true, regardless of anything else.

"The dupes were mistakes, they screwed up the hybrid process. Max and the rest are the intended group that should seek to return to Antar."

Btw, did they ever say HOW they were screwed up? I mean, i figured the dupes were the mistakes too...but ALSO that they were more alike, in character/personality to origin aliens?? Anyways, just because certain parties "intended" it, does NOT automatically mean that they *should* seek to return. That's just what they were TOLD to do. The rest is their own choice, to weigh for themselves.

"I am saying that I can make sense of why things careened out of control for Max/Liz."

Yeah, I know. =) And that's what I was talking about. =)

"Max and Liz wouldn't be possible, in this story, without sci-fi."

No joke! lol =D When I was saying I didn't give care, about the Scifi plot, I meant when it turns all complicated, and very weird, and...totally ridiculous. =( But their *powers* are cool! And the story would never be the same, like you said...without the healing, dream-walking, connecting, and the "manipulate molecular structures" thing! lol =) Definitely so of the BEST scenes came from those! =)

Reply#15, from roscraze; Comments & Questions, 7/9/03
The conversational "debate" between s1r & skovde, is, as usual, well thought out and provokes much consideration.

I can buy into both of your thoughts, though they seem opposites...I think they stem from some of the same romanticisms in both of you!

I do very much believe that the dupes were, as they said, more alien and much less human than our fab3 were. I assume they were, indeed, also the rejects while our fav3 were the "real deal". The reason I think this is because Max, Isabel, Michael, and even Tess, were hidden, and were a well-kept secret from the general alien public; those living on Antar and those living on earth.

In "Departure" (I think?) our group turns on that device which emits a signal from the cave summit, and we saw an earth-wide view of aliens all over the country receiving that signal and stating "It has begun".

It is assumed that it was not too long after that event that the five planets requested that representatives of each meet together on earth to discuss a treaty for peace which would end the war between them.

In "Meet the Dupes" we learn that the five planets contacted the dupes and requested that Zan join them to represent the Royal Family. We also learn that the dupes were the only hybrids known to the alien public as a whole; they did not contact our hybrids because they did not know about them.

My questions are these: were the dupes the decoys, created and set up to draw alien "fire" and direct attention and hostility away from our royal four? What would have happened had Zan gone along with Rath and Isabel's plan, and survived to attend the meeting as King? Did the ultimate plan, formed while creating the eight hybrids, cover the possibility of such a meeting; were their creators so intelligent that they conceived the possibility that the dupes might be lured back by Kivar to Antar and killed there? Were they solely created to die for the hybrid Royal Four, so that those precious four could build their alligiences in secret and go back to Antar to conquer, gaining victory through surprise?

It is so frustrating to me that Roswell's production was cancelled. It is the multitude of potential subplots within the basic story that could have, should have, made Roswell a LONG running series! The wonderful storylines within THE story; it is a SIN they were not allowed to bear fruit and bloom!

My romantic soul does say "amen" to s1r's viewpoint concerning the Royal Four hybrids being their own persons, and not reincarnations of the originals! Those beautiful child-adults who lived and died on Antar gave only their essences to the mix; they were not frozen, stored and brought back to life by technology fifty years later!

As such, Max, Isabel and Michael did indeed have their own unique, individual personalilities and destinys; though their alien essences gave them a history, a knowledge, and an ability to access the fullest potential of their human brains, they were still "brand new" in every sense of that word. Because they were human, joined with a totally new species, their lives and destinys still waiting to be formed.

They were raised on earth: the crash, the death of their protectors and teachers, and a life lived with human parents and peers, without any Antarian influences whatsoever, made them basically and irreversably unlike their Antarian alien counterparts. When we saw them with the dupes, it was all too obvious that they were more human than they were alien!

I believe the dupes were very close to the persons they were duplicated to replace, their counterparts on Antar. I think that is why they had the same names as that of their "predecessors"! Each of them, when compared to descriptions and historys that we had glimpses of throughout the series, showed themselves to be almost carbon copies of those Royal Four who made their mistakes and died because of them.

I saw that the hybrid Zan had the same attitude and characteristics as the Royal Zan had had; he was full of himself, the knowledge of his position, his responsibilities, and his authority as leader. He did not seem to want to listen to his friends, or consider their ideas or opinions.

Rath seemed very much a fighter, a soldier; yet not as faithful or committed to his friend and King as the original Rath was.

I could see Lonnie becoming Vilandra, becoming obsessively in love with Kivar, blinded by passion and the forbidden-ness of their relationship to believe his lies, torn between her love of him and love for her brother and the kingdom. If you had a choice between Zan and Kivar, how discerning would you be?

Ava was the mystery. Was the original Ava like our despised Tess, or was she much like Ava? I could see Zan falling for either personality type: Ava, because she was gentle, blindly loyal, and willing to follow and worship him to the end of the world; Tess because she was cold, calculating, fiery and passionate about being ruler, being royalty, and was willing and eager to do battle with anyone who would threaten her position or her priviledges.

I firmly believe that Max, Michael and Maria had the right to choose their own paths; the destiny set out for them by an alien past, and a present need, was NOT an unchangeable inevitability; it was not the sole evidence of who they were. It was a PART of them, but only one part.

There are very, very few, be they human or alien, that could choose a destiny based on an unknown planet and an unknown family, and peoples. Especially when they had another world, another life, another reality; the only things they had ever known. How could any person give up their family, or, more important still, the "love of their life" to a misty future that had no place in either their hearts or personal experience?

I hope there will be a Roswell movie sequel; complete with our favorite actors and actresses, our beloved characters from the TV series. The shame is that, despite achieving our dream of a movie, the Roswell that we have known and loved will never again exist for us as an ongoing story, except in fanfics and published young adult fiction. It would have taken years to exaust all the possibilities, to tell all the stories, and to bring all the pieces together. It would have been wonderful to be able to see it all happen, rather than just dream it!

Sorry I went off on such a tangent. Been gone for five days; missed all things Roswell more than I thought...

END OF ARTICLE- THIS BRANCHES INTO TWO ARTICLES (2767, 2787)
Article 2767 is in response to reply#14 from season1rulez
Article 2787 is in response to reply#15 from roscraze

ARTICLE #2787, titled roscraze#2742, from season1rulez, 7/10/03
Is in response to reply#15 in Article#2742-it has 6 replies. (only 4 posted)

Hey, nice to see ya back! =) I'd just been wondering what had become of everyone! ;) Btw, great reply you posted back there...I just now read it. =) Sometimes I forget to go to previous pages, and look for new posts. (Hold STILL you stupid bb!!) Plus, Skovde went ahead and moved our conversation up...to the current page...so I didn't think to go back to the old thread for a while. ;) Glad to hear that someone agrees with me about "destiny" and the dupes! LOL =D Maybe ya wanna come over to the new thread, and help me persuade Skovde! ;) hehe...

roscraze -- "It is so frustrating to me that Roswell's production was cancelled. It is the multitude of potential subplots within the basic story that could have, should have, made Roswell a LONG running series! The wonderful storylines within THE story; it is a SIN they were not allowed to bear fruit and bloom!"

s1r -- I know! =( I wish WE had a granolith(sp?), so we could go into the future, and learn the NEW/improved successor to Nielson ratings...and bring THAT system back to 2000...so we could've saved Roswell! =( The world has NO clue what greatness it has lost to stupid ratings!!!

Replies #1 and #2 are just observations on the confusing branching of the post

Reply #3, from Skovde; roscraze, awesome post!; 7/11/03
roscraze- "In "Departure" (I think?) our group turns on that device which emits a signal from the cave summit, and we saw an earth-wide view of aliens all over the country receiving that signal and stating "It has begun".
It is assumed that it was not too long after that event that the five planets requested that representatives of each meet together on earth to discuss a treaty for peace which would end the war between them."

sko- That was never really explained, I like your assumption about how it triggered the 5 planet conference. But I also think the skins were spread out, and when the signal was sent, they all detected the source and moved near N.Mexico.

rcrze-"My questions are these: were the dupes the decoys, created and set up to draw alien "fire" and direct attention and hostility away from our royal four? "

sko- Stick the dupe necks out on the line...? Good idea 8)

rc-"What would have happened had Zan gone along with Rath and Isabel's plan, and survived to attend the meeting as King? Did the ultimate plan, formed while creating the eight hybrids, cover the possibility of such a meeting; were their creators so intelligent that they conceived the possibility that the dupes might be lured back by Kivar to Antar and killed there? Were they solely created to die for the hybrid Royal Four, so that those precious four could build their alligiences in secret and go back to Antar to conquer, gaining victory through surprise?"

sko- Not to shabby a conjecture there, rc. I think Nicholas realized the situation, though, he probably had the dupes pegged as being defects.

rc-"It is so frustrating to me that Roswell's production was cancelled. It is the multitude of potential subplots within the basic story that could have, should have, made Roswell a LONG running series! The wonderful storylines within THE story; it is a SIN they were not allowed to bear fruit and bloom!"

sko- Well said, it WAS rife with potential.

rc-"As such, Max, Isabel and Michael did indeed have their own unique, individual personalilities and destinys; though their alien essences gave them a history, a knowledge, and an ability to access the fullest potential of their human brains, they were still "brand new" in every sense of that word. Because they were human, joined with a totally new species, their lives and destinys still waiting to be formed."

sko- But I realize and accept that this only happened because of an "accident" they weren't supposed to live out lives on earth. I can't dismiss that part of the story, even though I really enjoy the human aspect of it, and yes they are now more human with much more difficult decisions to make, and they can't be expected to fit so easily back into Pandora's Box once they escaped the Pod chamber/Pandora's Box.

Their destinies are now up in the air, and yet, I comfortable allowing Zan/Ava/Rath/Vilandra to have a "voice" in their current destiny. I won't dismiss their Antahrian hopes and wishes as being irrelevant, even though I prefer the human story.

rc-"They were raised on earth: the crash, the death of their protectors and teachers, and a life lived with human parents and peers, without any Antarian influences whatsoever, made them basically and irreversably unlike their Antarian alien counterparts. When we saw them with the dupes, it was all too obvious that they were more human than they were alien!"

sko- Well said, again. They were influenced by loving human conditions, and the dupes weren't...I don't think either were necessarily more alien, as you say...they both appeared, to me, to have human qualities. I think there are more than plenty of humans out there that resemble the dupes.

rc-"I believe the dupes were very close to the persons they were duplicated to replace, their counterparts on Antar. I think that is why they had the same names as that of their "predecessors"! Each of them, when compared to descriptions and historys that we had glimpses of throughout the series, showed themselves to be almost carbon copies of those Royal Four who made their mistakes and died because of them."

sko- I would disagree, I feel that Zan is getting a bad rap. Just look at his nemesis Kivahr/Nicholas and see what he had to deal with. Larek explained it best, for me, in that Zan wanted things to change for the better..and Kivahr wanted to maintain the status quo. Look how Kivahr had Vilandra "gagged and bound", that is why she was a mess, and why she betrayed the others, because of Kivahr's tampering/domination of her mind. I find Larek's account of their past to be the most reliable, almost everyone else had a reason to have a bias against Zan.

rc-"There are very, very few, be they human or alien, that could choose a destiny based on an unknown planet and an unknown family, and peoples. Especially when they had another world, another life, another reality; the only things they had ever known. How could any person give up their family, or, more important still, the "love of their life" to a misty future that had no place in either their hearts or personal experience?"

sko- Yes, it does pose a very difficult question. That's why I understand the great conflict that unfolds...how do Max and Liz cope with such a great burden? I think they did extremely well, given the circumstance.

rc-"I hope there will be a Roswell movie sequel; complete with our favorite actors and actresses, our beloved characters from the TV series. The shame is that, despite achieving our dream of a movie, the Roswell that we have known and loved will never again exist for us as an ongoing story, except in fanfics and published young adult fiction. It would have taken years to exaust all the possibilities, to tell all the stories, and to bring all the pieces together. It would have been wonderful to be able to see it all happen, rather than just dream it!"

Sorry I went off on such a tangent. Been gone for five days; missed all things Roswell more than I thought...

skovde- Roscraze, this was an AWESOME post, from top to bottom!

Reply#4, from roscraze; I *blush* at you compliments, 7/11/03
and I certainly love it when you comment on my comments...whew! getting a little thick in here, eh?

skovde, I am grateful for the reminder about what Larek had to say about Zan; I do remember that now. Larek was the only *trustworthy* person concerning his opinions of the Royal Four, I think. When I think back, most of the negative comments about the original Zan were made by his enemies, or at least by people who were seeking to obtain their personal objectives.

I have a difficult time merging Max's personality w/the dupe's Zan; though I am inclined to think the original Zan was more a combination of the two of them! I also am wondering if each of the podsters was also a combination of their *alter egos* in their original form? This idea could possibly explain alot of the seemingly contradictory character traits exibited by our fav3 and the dupes, and the supposed traits of the originals.

All of that could also make me crazy. Because accepting those random thoughts/ideas has me questioning the ability of the scientists who created the hybrids in the first place...as to why they didn't just do a better job in the *essence* department, and just make four hybrids rather than eight?

I guess I have to say my theory about the dupes being the *targets* to draw the hostilities away from our fav3 to protect them and allow them to grow and go back to Antar to win the war w/o interference from their enemies while here on Earth.

I also like Shiloh's theory that the reason the dupes grew up without a protector/teacher was because Cal ran off to Hollywood to live a human life. Which yet seems a violation of his programmed directive to protect them; how do you protect four six year old kids living in the sewers of NY without living with them? Maybe he hung around with them long enough to make sure they were *street smart* and able to live on their own as *street kids*. This seems unfathomable to us, but, as has been said, the protectors were pure alien and did not have any human feelings.

Which brings up another point. If that is true, then Nasedo and Cal were purely acting out their programs. Which doesn't compute, because they both practiced freedom of will, choice making, etc. Why would Cal run away to live as a human if he really had no emotions? What would cause him to prefer one life over the other, especially if he was programmed to serve the hybrids? Nasedo also seemed to have emotions, as he showed instances of evil delight, anger, frustration and a kind of reluctant concern for the hybrid *royal four*.

OOOOOHHHH! Sometimes this whole thing is tooooo frustrating! As I said, so much potential that is never going to be realized, unless they actually do produce a movie! I hope when they do, that they contact the Roswell fans and take a survey or something asking what we would most like to see happen/resolved before they write the script!!!!! Then do some sort of computer mumbo-jumbo and have it select the top five or ten most asked for scenerio's/questions asked, and write a script that at least answers some of those questions!

Roswell is so rich to explore, we have so much we can talk about here, even if the TV series never airs again in its entirity!!!

Reply#5, from Skovde; A Strawberry blush? 8), 7/12/03
rc-"and I certainly love it when you comment on my comments...whew! getting a little thick in here, eh?

sko- Thick, you mean like layers of icing on a cake?

rcraze-"Larek was the only *trustworthy* person concerning his opinions of the Royal Four, I think. When I think back, most of the negative comments about the original Zan were made by his enemies, or at least by people who were seeking to obtain their personal objectives."

Sko- And Larek even pointed out a sense of disappointment with Zan...but it was a different than Nicholas'. Larek recognized Zan's good intentions.

rcraze-"I have a difficult time merging Max's personality w/the dupe's Zan; though I am inclined to think the original Zan was more a combination of the two of them! I also am wondering if each of the podsters was also a combination of their *alter egos* in their original form? This idea could possibly explain alot of the seemingly contradictory character traits exibited by our fav3 and the dupes, and the supposed traits of the originals."

Sko- It is hard to know what their personalities would have been had Max and Michael been switched. If Max grew up with an alcoholic foster father, and without close sisterly relationship with Isabel, I think he'd be quite a different person. It would be interesting to see, then, if Zan's influence would have played out better than Rath's. Would Zan have still been willing to save Liz's life, would that part of him still been willing to reveal himself? We would know more about Zan's influence had we been able to see Max grow up in Hank's foster home.

rc- "All of that could also make me crazy. Because accepting those random thoughts/ideas has me questioning the ability of the scientists who created the hybrids in the first place...as to why they didn't just do a better job in the *essence* department, and just make four hybrids rather than eight?"

Sko- I think they wanted decoys, or maybe the crash harmed the 4 NY dupes pods and they had to redo the process to create the New Mexico pods.

rcrze- "I guess I have to say my theory about the dupes being the *targets* to draw the hostilities away from our fav3 to protect them and allow them to grow and go back to Antar to win the war w/o interference from their enemies while here on Earth."

Sko- Yeah, I think they became that sort of asset, as decoys.

rcrze-"I also like Shiloh's theory that the reason the dupes grew up without a protector/teacher was because Cal ran off to Hollywood to live a human life. Which yet seems a violation of his programmed directive to protect them; how do you protect four six year old kids living in the sewers of NY without living with them? Maybe he hung around with them long enough to make sure they were *street smart* and able to live on their own as *street kids*. This seems unfathomable to us, but, as has been said, the protectors were pure alien and did not have any human feelings."

sko- But if they weren't the actual representation of the royal 4, then there would be no need to protect them. Which would indicate that they aren't the representation of the royal 4.

rc- "Which brings up another point. If that is true, then Nasedo and Cal were purely acting out their programs. Which doesn't compute, because they both practiced freedom of will, choice making, etc. Why would Cal run away to live as a human if he really had no emotions? What would cause him to prefer one life over the other, especially if he was programmed to serve the hybrids? Nasedo also seemed to have emotions, as he showed instances of evil delight, anger, frustration and a kind of reluctant concern for the hybrid *royal four*."

Sko- So many questions because we don't know the extent of their inner workings, or what Kivahr may have done to them. He may have given them that ability for their agreement to help him.

rc- "OOOOOHHHH! Sometimes this whole thing is tooooo frustrating! As I said, so much potential that is never going to be realized, unless they actually do produce a movie! I hope when they do, that they contact the Roswell fans and take a survey or something asking what we would most like to see happen/resolved before they write the script!!!!! Then do some sort of computer mumbo-jumbo and have it select the top five or ten most asked for scenerio's/questions asked, and write a script that at least answers some of those questions!

Roswell is so rich to explore, we have so much we can talk about here, even if the TV series never airs again in its entirity!!!"

Sko- There are a lot of unexplored islands in the Roswell chain. 8)

Reply#6, from Shiloh; Some Thoughts, 7/13/03
Ooooh! I love these types of discussions! :)

My thoughts on the Pod Squad vs. the Dupes. I think the Skins had found the Dupes before they found the Pod Squad. Perhaps they initially thought that they were the real Royal 4, but had lost the Granolith with the crash. When the orb went off, it alerted them to the existance of the other set of hybrids. In checking them out, it became obvious that THESE were the real thing! They went after them and Tess destroyed all but Nicholas.

Nicholas and Lonnie had some secret stuff going on - perhaps even the "affair" that Nicholas tried to get going with Iz when he discovered SHE was the real re-creation of Valandra. Kivar wanted the Royal 4 back and it seemed that she and Rath were working with Nicholas - especially Lonnie - under the impression that they would get favors from Kivar if they helped. Obviously, Lonnie was also willing to sacrifice Rath.

I don't think the Dupes knew the Pod Squad existed until Nicholas told them. By that time, he would've known that Zan didn't have the seal OR the Granolith. Zan's death created the necessity for them to go get the real thing, even though the Dupes thought Max was a stand in - until the seal was actually revealed and Max knew what Nicholas was talking about when he mentioned the Granolith. The Dupes were surprised that this actually existed. Nicholas was behind Lonnie and Rath killing Zan and I think it was so that Max would take his place. He had and was what Nicholas was looking for - and Nicholas had no true loyalty to any of the Dupes. In fact, he or Tess may have destroyed them before Max found Tess in NYC. She said Nicholas had tried to get into her mind, but never mentioned the others. Nicholas was ruthless and was looking at returning to Kivar defeated. If the Dupes weren't the real Royal 4 and they failed him, he'd have no reason not to do away with them.

And I still believe that THIS is when the "plot" was placed into Tess' head! Tess fought him, but he was too strong for her to kill - just like in "Wipe Out". And he was very strong in mind control and extraction of thoughts/memories. She was able to keep him from getting anything OUT of her mind. But that doesn't mean he didn't IMPLANT something into her! It seems that all of her planning began after that, even though I do believe she used some mind warping to "remind" Max of their past and supposed destiny before that. I still don't think Nesado had anything to do with it. I think Tess went through 3 distinct phases (if you forget that the writers probably didn't have this whole thing planned out in the beginning!). Phase 1: Believer in their destinies. She truly believed that she and Max were supposed to be together, wanted this, and did a little nudging! Phase 2: Nesado was gone and she began to develop relationships with the podsters and some of the humans, especially Jim & Kyle. After TEOTW, this also became more combined with Phase 1 activities. Phase 3: Or "After NYC Phase" - Phase 1 & 2 activities took on a NEW purpose, which she believed - due to Nicholas' influence - was a plot started by Nesado that she needed to complete in order to save herself from Kivar. Her Phase 2 relationships bled into this just like memories occasionally bled through her mind warped memories with Alex, Amy, and the frequent frustration, paranoia and confusion that Max (being a hybrid, not totally human) experienced as a result of her "intrusions". I believe she had great doubts as the time to carry through with this plan got closer (which would've been a fact if they hadn't cut that part out of the show/script!). Max' kiss, telling her that he'd been with Liz and how strongly he still felt about Liz made her realize he would never love her that way and she determined to carry through with what she believed to be "the Nesado plot".

Of course, this could be made even MORE interesting with that other theory of mine - the switched pods theory! Ava obviously was not privy to Lonnie & Rath's dealings and plottings with Nicholas. She was Horrified when Zan was killed, they continually threatened her & made fun of her, and she eventually separated herself from them. She did not seem to have that complete disconcern for human life that the other aliens, including Nesado & Cal, had when it came to obtaining their goals.

My thoughts... (and they are often incoherrent thoughts! LOL) are - going back to Summer of '47 - the two aliens, Nesado & Cal, were the ones that Michael's fantasy character allowed to escape with all 8 pods - which they knew 4 of them were dupes. Initially, all of the pods were hidden in the pod chamber outside Roswell. The two aliens were then captured and held, basically in the White Room facility, where they were "studied". Nesado eventually escaped, but was injured - and then found the young River Dog, got to know Atherton, etc. During this time he separated the pods, moving them far away from one another, leaving the true Royal 4 in the Granolith or pod chamber. This may have been when Atherton started saying he could prove the existance of aliens to Hubble and Jim's dad. He may have helped move the dupes & was killed by Nesado for his knowledge and contacts. Ava's & Tess' pods were accidentally switched during this move. The second alien, Cal, escaped 3 years after Nesado did. Returning to the pod chamber, he realized that Nesado had moved 4 of them, but Nesado was not to be found. Believing that Nesado would leave the real Royal 4 with the Granolith, Cal blended in with the humans in the area believing that Nesado was with the Dupes - which he may have been. Cal, however, came to appreciate and long for human qualities (we are never told if the shapeshifters are of the same race or species as those that Kivar and the Royal 4 came from. They may have been dominated or genetically engineered beings). He hid in the background, keeping an eye on the pods from a distance. If he knew Nesado was back checking on the pods, he kept his distance, not wanting contact that would draw him back into the mission.

The Royal 4 came out of their pods at about the same time the Dupes did. Nesado was with the dupes. Realizing the Royal 4 were "due", too, he abandoned them to be with the pod squad. Cal, in the meantime, knew the pod squad had emerged and that they were being treated as normal human children - which he thought was best. He continued to watch over them from a distance. Nesado got there AFTER the pods opened and had no idea where the kids had gone, except Tess had just emerged. He took her with him, raising her and teaching her, while looking for the pod squad. (Remember? He told them he'd been looking for them for a LONG time.) Cal, knowing what life had been like on Antar and what lie ahead of the Royal 4 if their destinies were accomplished - as well as his own future - continued to watch over them from a distance - protecting as he was programmed to do, while Nesado thought he'd disappeared, been recaptured, or died. Cal knew too much and supported Max' human relationships too much to think he hadn't been aware of them before Busted!

After Max drew everyone's attention by saving Liz, Cal knew that they may need more immediate protection - that perhaps their return to Antar could not be avoided in order to save them. I believe Tic Tac was Cal. I believe HE relit the burning sign on the Library lawn to bring Nesado in. I believe HE killed Hank after Hank witnessed Max' powers and then posed as Hank to clear Michael. (He said he hadn't shape shifed in a long time, but in Control he had to shape shift back to his alien form - he maintained human form in all other instances, which allowed him to maintain the few human senses he'd developed. JMO) I believe he led Max & Liz to the orb (Nesado did not appreciate that they had the thing) in order for them to find out who and what they were. I believe he felt Nesado would help them develop the powers they needed to protect themselves better. Especially now that Tess was with them. When the Skins were destroyed and it looked like they were returning to Antar, there was nothing more for him to do. He did not know about Tess' pregnancy, believing Max & Liz were together, until after she had left and everything seemed to settle down. The Royal 4 seemed happy to stay on Earth and it seemed their enemies had been vanquished. It was Max' and Liz' attempt at finding the spaceship that his happy existance once again became threatened - by alerting the government again to the possible active presence of aliens on Earth and once again putting those he was programmed to protect in harm's way.

As you can tell - I spend WAY too much time in Fantasy Land, filling plot holes that the writers never even thought about, in a fictional world! It's an addiction, but I love it! :)

ARTICLE #2767-from Skovde; Just kinda wondering pt.II- S1rulez
Is in response to reply #14, from season1rulez in Article #2742.

s1r-"I'm sleeping at the moment, so I can't really tell! lol"

sko-Sleep-typing??? Pretty good. 8)

s1r-"Noooo...Max and Tess were NOT married on Antar, because they are NOT Zan and Ava."

sko- Max and Tess were married, their human bodies should have been inconsequential to them. They were a temporary "home" to allow them to regroup and return to Antahr. Their human bodies only became more influential when they were separated from Nasedo. Otherwise, they would never have developed in a human way.

s1r-"I mean, even if you consider a clone to absolutely the same as the original, in every way, it still doesn't matter...the alien clone was only a PART of them. Other than that, they're human. Yes, some Antarians cloned them, and sent them here "on a mission to return"...but that it NOT a deciding factor. They choose who they will become -- what they will do with their lives, and how they will deal (or not deal) with their "destiny." That's why I was saying it doesn't matter."

sko- But it does matter, and yes it should be a deciding factor. They would not have had the ability to become earth bound had they not escaped from the pod chamber. I just look at in from an earthly perspective. If Max and Liz died on earth and they were sent to another planet in order to return to save earth. Yes, we would say it matters that they return to set things right. I am only trying to be fair to the entire story, trying not to bias myself toward Max/Liz just because they are the most compelling pair, in my view.

sko said-"He could've fallen in love with her because we don't know how things would've been different had they all remained together."

s1r replied-"No way. Not in MY world! ;) I may agree that the term soul-mates is "obscure"...but that doesn't mean it has NO meaning, at all! And one of main things it implies, IMO, is that they could never give their heart to anyone else. Even if they never met each other, and ended up marrying other people, it STILL wouldn't matter. Their lives would never feel complete...they would always lack meaning. Max's heart belongs to Liz, and Liz' heart belongs to Max. Basic "dreamer fact." ;) He could *never* love Tess, or anyone else -- not in that way. Circumstances don't change the connection between Max and Liz. It exists because it DOES...because they're "meant." And that will always be true, regardless of anything else."

sko- When you say:
"They choose who they will become -- what they will do with their lives, and how they will deal (or not deal) with their "destiny."
It seems that there is a contradiction with your soul-mate definition. How can they choose their destiny if the soul-mate status binds them. They don't have a choice?

I don't see the term soul-mate in the same way. To me, it represents a potentiality. Liz is his soul-mate, they are the prefect fit. It's like he wants to paddle upstream to an idyllic island. Liz is the person waiting for him on the shore, with a paddle in her hand. It is up to each of them to work at achieving the great potential of reaching that island. It is up to him, not to pass her by, "not to let her die" and go out on his own...or to be coaxed by another goof with an oar.

It is up to each of them to recognize that, together, they can reach that goal. Soul-mate is not a given, and the ties that bind, well...I think chains are what soul-mates create themselves when they are ready, and not before they are ready. It allows the process of growing together, rather than the feeling of being lassoed and tied together from the start.

s1r-"Btw, did they ever say HOW they were screwed up? I mean, i figured the dupes were the mistakes too...but ALSO that they were more alike, in character/personality to origin aliens?? Anyways, just because certain parties "intended" it, does NOT automatically mean that they *should* seek to return. That's just what they were TOLD to do. The rest is their own choice, to weigh for themselves."

sko- Nicholas knew that the dupes were complete phonies and a mess up. He knew Max was legit. The never really explained much in terms of detail, it's too bad.
The only reason they [podsters] would not want to return is if there were a crash and they happened to escape into a normal human life. Max's [zan's xan's] mom probably didn't anticipate that would happen.

sko said-"I am saying that I can make sense of why things careened out of control for Max/Liz."

s1r-"Yeah, I know. =) And that's what I was talking about. =)"

sko- ok then 8). I also said that I might not prefer that to be the case. But, Liz did have doubts. I can't blame anyone for portraying that...and Max had doubts...that seemed ok too. And Kivahr wanted to skewer everyone, except for, maybe Isabel...so he talked Nasedo into a plan that played out. That stunk for Max and Liz.


s1r-"I meant when it turns all complicated, and very weird, and...totally ridiculous. =( But their *powers* are cool! And the story would never be the same, like you said...without the healing, dream-walking, connecting, and the "manipulate molecular structures" thing! lol =) Definitely so of the BEST scenes came from those! =)"

sko- When it gets complicated? It's always complicated, well, according to Liz. 8). I know what you mean and it sucks that they couldn't have given the viewers a better idea of what was happening.
"I wish that things would have been different, I wished it so much." Maybe Max was talking about how things played out?

Reply#1, from season1rulez; hehe…, 7/9/03
"Sleep-typing??? Pretty good. 8)"

LOL ;) Thanks...I have interesting talents, eh? ;)

"Max and Tess were married, their human bodies should have been inconsequential to them. They were a temporary "home" to allow them to regroup and return to Antar. Their human bodies only became more influential when they were separated from Nasedo. Otherwise, they would never have developed in a human way."

Well, I guess it all depends on how you define being "human," then, doesn't it? If they have a free will, then they choose which impulses? to follow...good/bad, human/alien. And if they have souls, then it could never just amount to "bodies," serving as temporary homes. =( Being part human, made the hybrids VERY different from the original aliens, IMO. So, Skovde...*why* do you keep on talking like Zan = Max, and Ava = Tess?? They're not the same at all!! ;)

"But it does matter, and yes it should be a deciding factor. They would not have had the ability to become earth bound had they not escaped from the pod chamber. I just look at in from an earthly perspective. If Max and Liz died on earth and they were sent to another planet in order to return to save earth. Yes, we would say it matters that they return to set things right. I am only trying to be fair to the entire story, trying not to bias myself toward Max/Liz just because they are the most compelling pair, in my view."

Why not, Skovde? ;) What's so bad about being biased? lol Even so, it doesn't matter WHERE they were cloned, or WHO says they have to return for whatever...yada, yada. They make their own choices. A lot of others might hate them, for what they decide to do...but regardless, only THEY can choose. It "matters" to a *lot* of people, which path they will end up following. But...what others want them to do, or not do, *doesn't* "matter" because it isn't their choice to make.

"When you say: 'They choose who they will become -- what they will do with their lives, and how they will deal (or not deal) with their destiny.'
It seems that there is a contradiction with your soul-mate definition. How can they choose their destiny if the soul-mate status binds them. They don't have a choice?"

Hmmm..well, it's kinda different and kinda the same, I guess. ;) Different because "destiny" was something their own kind tried to force on them. "Soul-mates," in my thinking, is just something that happens...not because *anyone* made any choices...it's just there. But, the part about "they decide," applies to both. Of course no one HAS to be with their soul-mate! Most likely, they'll WANT to...but it's still their *choice.* I mean, Max originally *chose* not to be romantically involved with Liz. Or, ever seen "Castaway"? There's a pretty good example of when someone ends up NOT being with the person who truly holds their heart. =( You could say that both "destiny" and "soul-mates" are meant to be...in a certain sense. But regardless of what is supposedly "meant," their free will can't be ignored.

"It is up to each of them to recognize that, together, they can reach that goal. Soul-mate is not a given, and the ties that bind, well...I think chains are what soul-mates create themselves when they are ready, and not before they are ready. It allows the process of growing together, rather than the feeling of being lassoed and tied together from the start."

That's really good. =) I could definitely go along with it...but I just think there's a little more to it. Like how they're never going to "complete" until they're with each other? How there will always be something missing, deep inside?


"But, Liz did have doubts. I can't blame anyone for portraying that...and Max had doubts...that seemed ok too."

No, I don't have a problem with doubts. Doubts are important to have...they lead to reason. Without reason, it's hard to know what's real...so I don't mind them portraying that. Depending on how they do it, or what you label as "doubts." ;)

Reply#2, from Skovde; Paddling Soul-mates. 8), 7/9/03
s1r-"Well, I guess it all depends on how you define being "human," then, doesn't it? If they have a free will, then they choose which impulses? to follow...good/bad, human/alien. And if they have souls, then it could never just amount to "bodies," serving as temporary homes. =("

sko- They were never intended to live as humans, the cloned human body is just a temporary comdition for their alien essence/soul. They were not supposed to grow up in human society, with human parents. The action of placing their essence in a human vessel is a last ditch attempt to save/shelter their essences. The human development that occurred was a result of 3 of them leaving the pod chamber. That wasn't supposed to happen. They were supposed to develop as aliens with a human shell, they weren't supposed to develop as humans with an unknown alien-side.

s1r-"Being part human, made the hybrids VERY different from the original aliens, IMO. So, Skovde...*why* do you keep on talking like Zan = Max, and Ava = Tess?? They're not the same at all!! ;)"

sko- Yes, they would have been very similar, if Nasedo had been successful in keeping them by his side, and if he were truly concerned for their eventual return home. They would have been nurtured by him and he/it wouldn't focus on their human nature, he'd probably develop their alienness from the start.

s1r-"Why not, Skovde? ;) What's so bad about being biased? lol Even so, it doesn't matter WHERE they were cloned, or WHO says they have to return for whatever...yada, yada. They make their own choices. A lot of others might hate them, for what they decide to do...but regardless, only THEY can choose. It "matters" to a *lot* of people, which path they will end up following. But...what others want them to do, or not do, *doesn't* "matter" because it isn't their choice to make."

sko- This issue only arises because of the crash and the fact that somehow they escaped into human households. If they knew the facts from the start, they would have developed very differently. They wouldn't trust humans, they'd desire to return home, much like Tess wanted. Once the 3 podsters get into human homes, things change, true. They do have a much more difficult choice to make. You'd think the Antahrians would have prevented this from happening? But then there would not be a show about an alien hybrid saving a human.

s1r-"Different because "destiny" was something their own kind tried to force on them. "Soul-mates," in my thinking, is just something that happens...not because *anyone* made any choices...it's just there."

sko-The antahrians invested a fair amount of effort to save the lives of these 4. It might have been a prearrangement for all we know. They only expected that they would desire to return home, how can you blame them for expecting them to fulfill their destiny? It seems like the only option. They didn't send Zan and Ava to earth to crash their UFO and to fall in love with an earth native creature.

s1r-"But, the part about "they decide," applies to both. Of course no one HAS to be with their soul-mate! Most likely, they'll WANT to...but it's still their *choice.* I mean, Max originally *chose* not to be romantically involved with Liz. Or, ever seen "Castaway"? There's a pretty good example of when someone ends up NOT being with the person who truly holds their heart. =( You could say that both "destiny" and "soul-mates" are meant to be...in a certain sense. But regardless of what is supposedly "meant," their free will can't be ignored."

sko- Wow, finally a paragraph where I can take a breather. I'm pretty much ok with that. 8) I didn't see Castaway. Isn't that volleyball the guys soul-mate? [or is it a soccer ball]

s1r-"That's really good. =) I could definitely go along with it...but I just think there's a little more to it. Like how they're never going to "complete" until they're with each other? How there will always be something missing, deep inside? "

sko- Wow, I think the last time we shared a similar opinion about a topic was around the Kyle's/Max's baby question . 8)
But I would not go as far as you with the "not being complete" idea, the something's missing notion is probably better expressed with the river/island analogy.

When you're walking along the shore, you see that far away island and when you get in a canoe without your soul-mate, you are just unable to reach that island...you can still paddle around and visit other islands...but there's always that one "special" island that is out of reach. It might bother you, you might notice that you just can't reach the island, or you might not notice it, it's not a feeling that you are missing something inside, but it could be a sense that something is missing...the greatest potential, the "destination" is out of reach...unless you are paddling with your soul-mate...then the entire river opens up to your combined paddling. Every island is reachable and you realize what was missing. Corny enough? 8)

s1r-"No, I don't have a problem with doubts. Doubts are important to have...they lead to reason. Without reason, it's hard to know what's real...so I don't mind them portraying that. Depending on how they do it, or what you label as "doubts." ;)"

sko- Doubts about spending you life with a human when you are an alien? Or perhaps she does truly belong with a human [Sean]? Isn't she better off with a normal life? Doubts about whether or not he should actually return home to save Antahr...?
Doubts about a life in constant peril with an alien, wondering if she'd be better off with a normal life? These are real possibilities.

Reply#3, from season1rulez; turning page, 7/10/03
"They were never intended to live as humans, the cloned human body is just a temporary comdition for their alien essence/soul. They were not supposed to grow up in human society, with human parents. The action of placing their essence in a human vessel is a last ditch attempt to save/shelter their essences. The human development that occurred was a result of 3 of them leaving the pod chamber. That wasn't supposed to happen. They were supposed to develop as aliens with a human shell, they weren't supposed to develop as humans with an unknown alien-side."

So, I take that you're assuming the aliens have "souls," and that THIS was the cloned "essence"? And I'm not sure how they could have 2 souls? That wouldn't seem to make sense...so, are you thinking the *only* part of them that's human are the "non-blood CELLS"? Personally, my idea was that the aliens didn't really have "souls," and that the "essence" cloned was just the Antarian version of DNA.

"Yes, they would have been very similar, if Nasedo had been successful in keeping them by his side, and if he were truly concerned for their eventual return home.

Probably. But he wasn't...and they weren't. Anyway, Tess was with him a long time, and even SHE was drawn to being human. She was only with them for a little while...but as we saw in certain eps, like ARCC, and particularly with what was supposed to be shown in Departure...her time with them nearly DID bring her "back from the dark-side"!

"If they knew the facts from the start, they would have developed very differently. They wouldn't trust humans, they'd desire to return home..."

Maybe. But maybe not. You seem to place a whole lot of value on what the Antarians intended. *Their* intentions, plans, purposes...what Roswell calls "destiny"...are kinda trivial in a way, I think. "Intention" means that there's a goal. What determines the *relevance*, or power, of that goal? Wouldn't it largely have to do with the value, authority, or importance of its creator/origin? And, that being the Antarians in this case, the "goal" doesn't have much weight. I mean, if you agreed with my statement -- regardless of what is supposedly "meant," their free will can't be ignored - then you know that, ultimately, it just comes down to what each of the 4 decide. All that factors in, is what THEY determine to be most important. Their choices and thinking can only be *influenced*...not decided *for them*. Otherwise, they wouldn't be alien, human, or hybrid. They'd be pons. Little pieces on a chess board. ;)

"I didn't see Castaway. Isn't that volleyball the guys soul-mate? [or is it a soccer ball]"

No, no. =) Wilson, the volleyball, was just something they used so the audience would know what the guy was thinking...since most of the movie is just *him*, all alone on the island. See, he sort of goes crazy, and starts talking (and screaming, and threatening, and crying) to it. It was annoying. But also kinda funny, sometimes. ;) Anyway, you should rent it someday. =) If you read into it a little, it has some good themes...though the ending was pretty much crap, IMO. Then again, that probably means you'd like it, huh? LOL ;) Wow, do we really disagree THAT much?? I hadn't realized! And might wonder if it were a bad thing...considering you've been Roswellian a lot longer than I have! But I won't worry, knowing what a sick and twisted mind you have liking Romeo and Juliet. ;) hehe... j/k Sorry Skovde, I couldn't resist. =)

"Doubts about spending your life with a human when you are an alien? Or perhaps she does truly belong with a human [Sean]? Isn't she better off with a normal life? Doubts about whether or not he should actually return home to save Antahr...?
Doubts about a life in constant peril with an alien, wondering if she'd be better off with a normal life?"

Yeah, doubts like that. =) Except I don't think Liz ever doubted if she "truly belonged with a human." (No more than I doubt if I'd be better off as a cow...since it'd mean I wouldn't have to drag myself in to work everyday. ;) She told FM that he was the love of her life. And everyone else would always be "second best." Liz never questioned who Max was to her. =) She was struggling with certain consequences of it...and needing something to ease them for a while.

Oh, and with your island analogy...it seems to have a different "foundation" than what was in my mind. Like, *soul* mate is a kind of "spiritual" idea. Not so much about achieving potential, or gaining greater compatibility, or reaching a higher objective, etc. It's more of an internal thing. I'm thinking that, instead of something coming from the "outside in," soul-mate is such a energy on the inside, that it shows through to the outside. Hmmm...it's just hard for me to think of a good way to say it, I guess...I'm not sure how to explain?

Reply#4, from peeps14; The dupes, 7/10/03
I thought that the dupes were the legit aliens because of that one fact...they were TOO alien. Max and the pod squad were too human for what they were required to do. I know they had the Granolith, but maybe that is what their planet intended. They seem to know a lot about human behavior that they could clone them as such. Maybe they knew the legit aliens would just repeat history..which they did...and that only a human with human emotions who didn't remember a lot about the past could keep the Granolith safe! Who knows!

Reply#5, from Skovde; s1rulez, and peeps14- at the end of post, 7/10/03
s1rulez-"So, I take that you're assuming the aliens have "souls," and that THIS was the cloned "essence"? And I'm not sure how they could have 2 souls? That wouldn't seem to make sense...so, are you thinking the *only* part of them that's human are the "non-blood CELLS"? Personally, my idea was that the aliens didn't really have "souls," and that the "essence" cloned was just the Antarian version of DNA."

sko- Yes...I am assuming that the alien essence is similar to a soul. It also brings up the question of whether or not a human clone has a soul...Zan's human vessel is a clone of another, and it is the alien "soul" that occupies that vessel.

It is what we see happen when Max heals Clayton, the guy dying of old age. Max's body turns to dust without the alien essence that becomes part of Clayton. Max is a human body with human tissue, but as we see when he occupies Clayton, his alien essence is the more important factor as to who he is, his alien essence probably affects certain human cells to enable his essence to coexist in a human body.

It is also similar to what happens with Kivahr when he leaves through the wormhole transport. I think they called it wormhole tech. His essence leaves that human body and takes off into space.

s1r-"Probably. But he wasn't...and they weren't. Anyway, Tess was with him a long time, and even SHE was drawn to being human. She was only with them for a little while...but as we saw in certain eps, like ARCC, and particularly with what was supposed to be shown in Departure...her time with them nearly DID bring her "back from the dark-side"!"

sko- This happens after Nasedo dies and she becomes part of a human household. They were never intended to become part of human households. If they weren't exposed to a loving human life, they more than likely would have remained more intent on returning home with one another.

s1r-"Maybe. But maybe not. You seem to place a whole lot of value on what the Antarians intended. *Their* intentions, plans, purposes...what Roswell calls "destiny"...are kinda trivial in a way, I think. "Intention" means that there's a goal.

sko- To me, it seems more than fair to assume that the royal 4 may have planned for their flight to earth. They may have been a part of the decision process.
Zan/Ava/Vil/Rath/ "Look if we die, we need to come up with a plan so that we can still manage to find our way back here...let's talk with our science staff and find out how this can be done."

This conversation could have taken place, it would make sense. They themselves could have intended to come back.

s1r-"What determines the *relevance*, or power, of that goal? Wouldn't it largely have to do with the value, authority, or importance of its creator/origin? And, that being the Antarians in this case, the "goal" doesn't have much weight. I mean, if you agreed with my statement -- regardless of what is supposedly "meant," their free will can't be ignored - then you know that, ultimately, it just comes down to what each of the 4 decide. All that factors in, is what THEY determine to be most important. Their choices and thinking can only be *influenced*...not decided *for them*. Otherwise, they wouldn't be alien, human, or hybrid. They'd be pons. Little pieces on a chess board. ;)"

sko- I am just placing a lot more emphasis on their origin, giving it equal weight to the great human story that unfolds. They don't know enough about themselves, about their planet to make a sound decision. The viewers don't know enough. How it could be done. Also, I understand that they were not sent to earth to become part of earthly society, it wasn't supposed to happen. Something allowed them to escape into the desert. The fact that living on earth was never an option from the start makes me consider their destiny.

If you asked Zan, when he was alive on Antahr...if, when he died, his essence would be placed on earth and he would fall in love with a being on that planet instead of returning home. I think Zan would have laughed at the question. They all would laugh at the prospect of living on another planet as another being. Think of it in terms of ourselves.

So I am considering what Zan's wishes were when he died, I think they are relevant too. I think the act of living in human homes did much to keep their alien-side from expressing itself, and its memories.

s1r-"But I won't worry, knowing what a sick and twisted mind you have liking Romeo and Juliet. ;) hehe... j/k Sorry Skovde, I couldn't resist. =)"

sko- I never said I LIKED Romeo and Juliet. I don't hate it. I does have complex themes/symbolism. 8)

s1r-"Yeah, doubts like that. =) Except I don't think Liz ever doubted if she "truly belonged with a human." (No more than I doubt if I'd be better off as a cow...since it'd mean I wouldn't have to drag myself in to work everyday. ;) She told FM that he was the love of her life. And everyone else would always be "second best." Liz never questioned who Max was to her. =) She was struggling with certain consequences of it...and needing something to ease them for a while."

sko- Struggling with the consequences of it, yeah, she did. It put her in a really difficult place, and who can she turn to for support...her mom? her dad?...basically, all she has is Maria. And Liz sees a reflection of herself in Maria, she is going through the same process with Michael.

s1r-"Hmmm...it's just hard for me to think of a good way to say it, I guess...I'm not sure how to explain?"

sko- I know what you mean by soul-mate. I understand what you are trying to explain. I wouldn't agree with the idea that there is something missing inside and that you need your soul-mate to fill that empty spot. That is kinda gruesome, I think that would resemble a type of drug dependency.

How about this imagery...soul-mates have these invisible "feelers" or antennae. Like when Max and Liz were younger, they noticed each other, their feelers brushed against each other. In a spiritual way, their spirits were sparked with a slight charge, though they might not notice or be consciously aware of the feeling at first.

Soul-mates have that greatest potential to "ignite" each others souls in a way no other can. That is what I am trying to say...they still have to struggle to paddle around the river, but only they can reach that "great potential", if they strive to reach for it, if they face the rapids that scare other "canoe-mates" away. Only soul-mates hold that key.

from peeps14-"I thought that the dupes were the legit aliens because of that one fact...they were TOO alien.

sko- Um, I could say that the dupes were too human. At least from what I've seen out there. 8)

peeps14-"Max and the pod squad were too human for what they were required to do. I know they had the Granolith, but maybe that is what their planet intended. They seem to know a lot about human behavior that they could clone them as such. Maybe they knew the legit aliens would just repeat history..which they did...and that only a human with human emotions who didn't remember a lot about the past could keep the Granolith safe! Who knows!"

sko- Remember, everyone should remember, that Max, Isabel, Tess and Michael were not supposed to be brought up in human homes. They only became more human because they were brought up in human homes. Max became the Max we know because the Evans' family adopted them. The Antahrians did not intened for them to live in human homes.

Reply#6, from season1rulez; hmmm…, 7/10/03
"Yes...I am assuming that the alien essence is similar to a soul. It also brings up the question of whether or not a human clone has a soul...Zan's human vessel is a clone of another, and it is the alien "soul" that occupies that vessel."

Yeah, there is that question...whether or not a clone would/will have a soul. I always said they couldn't. But, in Roswell, if clones don't have souls, then I don't know what the 4 would be? And if you assume that they can't have *both* an alien and human soul...but one or the other...then it pretty much means whichever clone had a soul, THAT would be the deepest "definition" of who they are. So, if it's like you said...empty body, alien soul, then the story seems kinda screwed to me. They'd really HAVE to go back to Antar, and humanity could never be much of a part of them. Even if they were raised with it, they'd still be alien at "heart." And I don't see how they could ever form strong bonds with humans, because Antarians don't have the emotions/needs that make those relationships. So, like I said...the idea doesn't work for me, cuz the whole story will be screwed!

"This conversation could have taken place, it would make sense. They themselves could have intended to come back."

Well, lots of fan fic writers seem to think this is what happened. ;) I don't know if you read any of that, but there's a really good series going called "Changing Destiny." The way they wrote it is very similar to how I'd imagine it happening, if the origin 4 HAD planned to die and "rise again," by being cloned with human cells. The *key* is the Antarians never accounted for the fact that human beings have souls -- souls with a free will. The story does a great job of portraying the conflict, and battle within the hybrid...when the original alien "essence" tries to come back, by taking control of the body/mind. Eventually, they are able to defeat the nature of the "alien within," by choosing to follow "human" ways instead. (Or moral ways, I guess.)

"I am just placing a lot more emphasis on their origin, giving it equal weight to the great human story that unfolds. They don't know enough about themselves, about their planet to make a sound decision. The viewers don't know enough. How it could be done. Also, I understand that they were not sent to earth to become part of earthly society, it wasn't supposed to happen. The fact that living on earth was never an option from the start makes me consider their destiny. If you asked Zan, when he was alive on Antahr...if, when he died, his essence would be placed on earth and he would fall in love with a being on that planet instead of returning home. I think Zan would have laughed at the question. They all would laugh at the prospect of living on another planet as another being. Think of it in terms of ourselves. So I am considering what Zan's wishes were when he died, I think they are relevant too."

It wasn't "supposed" to happen...but it did. Meaning, the Antarians may try to "play God," but it's never going to work, because they aren't. It was "never an option"...for THEM. But they're not in control, and they're not deciding. Zan's dying wish may be "relevant," but it won't have power. I mean, the idea of cloning yourself, so you can accomplish your current goals via another life, seems TOTALLY stupid to me. You could even take the whole human thing out of it! Say that *only* Zan's essence is cloned. No human cells, no conflicting hybrid stuff. The clone is totally, exactly Zan...whatever that means...and nothing but. It still won't happen like they think - not as long as choices and circumstances are involved. I mean, if YOU lived again, in a completely different environment, and time...with completely different people and challenges, and decisions to deal with...do you think you would be exactly the same person you are now? Have all the same preferences, believe all the same things, take all the same approaches, *make all the same choices*?? No way. Then, on top of that, imagine that you're only PART you, to start with...and you have this whole OTHER nature/self within you...with all of it's own origins and elements. Zan can laugh if he wants to. He has no idea what he's laughing at.

"I never said I LIKED Romeo and Juliet. I don't hate it. It does have complex themes/symbolism."

Complex themes and symbolism? Yeah...there's some complex and symbolic there, alright...just not like that. lol

"I know what you mean by soul-mate. I understand what you are trying to explain. I wouldn't agree with the idea that there is something missing inside and that you need your soul-mate to fill that empty spot. That is kinda gruesome, I think that would resemble a type of drug dependency."

Gruesome?? Drug dependency? Ouch. Why would I mean that? =( There can be a lot of things missing in people's lives, making them feel "unfulfilled." A LOT of things. Isn't it kinda similar to *any* meaningful relationship? I mean, as a rule, people need each other. If you go through life being a hermit, you're gonna feel empty...to some degree. Is that "dependency"? People need to have others to share their lives with...to be there, and go through it with them. But a lot of times they don't, because that's not accomplished by *just* being with someone. It has to be "right." And, as long as it isn't, they'll feel the repercussions of that in their lives. Is it "gruesome"? Isn't it just a part of who we are?

Reply#7, from Skovde; Essence/Soul are similar, 7/10/03
s1r-"Yeah, there is that question...whether or not a clone would/will have a soul. I always said they couldn't. But, in Roswell, if clones don't have souls, then I don't know what the 4 would be?"

sko- The alien essence is their "soul" it becomes the soul for the human clone.

s1r-"And if you assume that they can't have *both* an alien and human soul...but one or the other...then it pretty much means whichever clone had a soul, THAT would be the deepest "definition" of who they are."

sko- Do we assume that Clayton had a soul? Then what happens when Zan's essence leaves the human cloned vessel known as Max. The body turns to dust and the essence/soul enters Clayton's body. Now Clayton had two consciousness/souls.

They injected Clayton with all sorts of exotic cocktails, perhaps some of that gandarium too. Zan's essence was able to reproduce the human body that looks like J.Behr. How? because it is alien with sci-fi powers.

s1r-"So, if it's like you said...empty body, alien soul, then the story seems kinda screwed to me. They'd really HAVE to go back to Antar, and humanity could never be much of a part of them. Even if they were raised with it, they'd still be alien at "heart." And I don't see how they could ever form strong bonds with humans, because Antarians don't have the emotions/needs that make those relationships."

sko- How do you know that about Antahrians? How do you know that a human soul and an Antahrian essence aren't very similar? I think they are...and their alien soul was influenced by their human development...because they were brought up in a human environment, with human families. It affected their essences, and it wasn't supposed to happen. That's pretty much how a body/soul circuitry/connection works.

s1r-"So, like I said...the idea doesn't work for me, cuz the whole story will be screwed!"

sko- I don't think it would at all.

s1r-"Well, lots of fan fic writers seem to think this is what happened. ;) I don't know if you read any of that, but there's a really good series going called "Changing Destiny." The way they wrote it is very similar to how I'd imagine it happening, if the origin 4 HAD planned to die and "rise again," by being cloned with human cells. The *key* is the Antarians never accounted for the fact that human beings have souls -- souls with a free will. The story does a great job of portraying the conflict, and battle within the hybrid...when the original alien "essence" tries to come back, by taking control of the body/mind. Eventually, they are able to defeat the nature of the "alien within," by choosing to follow "human" ways instead. (Or moral ways, I guess.)

sko- Again, this is another place where we disagree. The Antahrian consciousness is just as viable as a human consciousness. I am not going to say that they are a soulless race. The alien essence is, essentially, a soul. There isn't a lot of difference between them.

And Max worked with Liz grandma's soul, so I think the Antahrians knew very well about human souls. The soul is part of what Max heals...Liz, Clayton's, Liz's grandma, the kids in the hospital...there is soul healing going on too.

s1r-"It wasn't "supposed" to happen...but it did. Meaning, the Antarians may try to "play God," but it's never going to work, because they aren't. It was "never an option"...for THEM."

sko- It may be a common practice for Antahrians, they are an alien civilization and I can't look at them in an entirely anthropomorphic way. I don't know how trying to play God fits in all this...they are trying to save their planet and their leaders. Much like human doctors who try to save lives and people.

s1r-"But they're not in control, and they're not deciding. Zan's dying wish may be "relevant," but it won't have power. I mean, the idea of cloning yourself, so you can accomplish your current goals via another life, seems TOTALLY stupid to me. You could even take the whole human thing out of it! Say that *only* Zan's essence is cloned. No human cells, no conflicting hybrid stuff. The clone is totally, exactly Zan...whatever that means...and nothing but. It still won't happen like they think - not as long as choices and circumstances are involved."

sko- I think of this procedure as a sort of reincarnation, and that all of Zan's previous memories would be viable.

s1r-"I mean, if YOU lived again, in a completely different environment, and time...with completely different people and challenges, and decisions to deal with...do you think you would be exactly the same person you are now? Have all the same preferences, believe all the same things, take all the same approaches, *make all the same choices*?? No way."

sko- You would if you retained the memories of your life up to the point where you died. They were supposed to, that was part of the procedure that was disrupted by the crash and separation.

s1r-"Then, on top of that, imagine that you're only PART you, to start with...and you have this whole OTHER nature/self within you...with all of it's own origins and elements. Zan can laugh if he wants to. He has no idea what he's laughing at."

sko- Yes he would laugh. Most people would laugh at the idea that they would travel to another planet and then give up their life to become part of that culture. Heck, most people would laugh if you told them they'd somehow prefer to move to another country.

If the soul is eternal, and the memories remain, then it is not at all ridiculous to consider that Zan would be able to survive with help of a highly advanced technology.

sko said-"I never said I LIKED Romeo and Juliet. I don't hate it. It does have complex themes/symbolism."

s1rulez-"Complex themes and symbolism? Yeah...there's some complex and symbolic there, alright...just not like that. Lol"

sko- I am not talking face value, about how they all die. I think there are meaningful ideas to derive from the story. Stories sometimes deliver meaningful concepts and thoughts, and othertimes stories offer a fantasy world to take part in...I see value in both.

s1r-"Gruesome?? Drug dependency? Ouch. Why would I mean that? =( There can be a lot of things missing in people's lives, making them feel "unfulfilled." A LOT of things. Isn't it kinda similar to *any* meaningful relationship? I mean, as a rule, people need each other. If you go through life being a hermit, you're gonna feel empty...to some degree. Is that "dependency"? People need to have others to share their lives with...to be there, and go through it with them. But a lot of times they don't, because that's not accomplished by *just* being with someone. It has to be "right." And, as long as it isn't, they'll feel the repercussions of that in their lives. Is it "gruesome"? Isn't it just a part of who we are?"

sko- The idea that a person will always have an empty feeling if they don't happen to be fortunate enough to encounter their soul-mate is a gruesome thought, to me. It doesn't sound right. It just conjures up the wrong image for me.

s1r-"It has to be "right." And, as long as it isn't, they'll feel the repercussions of that in their lives."

sko- yeah, I agree. It's about not achieving the greatest potential, or whatever that means. But just because you might not be fortunate to meet that person, shouldn't equate to the sense that you are left empty or are not complete. That would be a sad state.

Reply#8, from season1rulez; interesting stuff…, 7/10/03
"The alien essence is their "soul" it becomes the soul for the human clone."

Hmmm...ok, so why do you think that? I have a hard time seeing it...because it doesn't allow for this bond between Max and Liz. Their connection exists on a "spiritual" level. And if Max had no human soul, but only Zan's "essence" in its place, then how can he have this relationship with Liz? I think it's safe to say that she and Zan couldn't be "soul-mates"! Which is one of the main reasons why I'm looking at this the way that I am...plus the fact that I KNOW humans have souls. With Antarians, there's no way to tell. Bringing me to the idea that Max (and the others) have human souls...and are only "alien," in the nature of SOME of their cells. This is partly why I said it would "screw the whole story."

"And Max worked with Liz grandma's soul, so I think the Antahrians knew very well about human souls. The soul is part of what Max heals...Liz, Clayton's, Liz's grandma, the kids in the hospital...there is soul healing going on too."

Wait a minute, Skovde...how did Max heal souls?? I don't get it. He can *connect* to them, obviously, which is what he did with Liz' grandma. But what do you mean by he "heals" them? And here of course, you're assuming the thing about Max having Zan's "soul." Maybe the Antarians knew about human souls, and maybe not. I'm still thinking not...but again, I don't see Zan as having a "soul," or of something like that existing in Max. JMO

"I don't know how trying to play God fits in all this...they are trying to save their planet and their leaders. Much like human doctors who try to save lives and people."

I say they are "playing God," because they created new life, and tried to *CONTROL*, or rule it...to decide what that life should become, and what's its purpose should be. =( Very big no-no.

"You would if you retained the memories of your life up to the point where you died. They were supposed to, that was part of the procedure that was disrupted by the crash and separation."

Oh. Yeah, true. ;) I didn't think of that. But, this is ONLY if its just a "pure" clone of Zan. You *still* have to factor in the human part...and your reason for why it doesn't have a soul. Oh, and I'm not doubting that they would "laugh."" They would...but they'd be clueless while doing so.

"The idea that a person will always have an empty feeling if they don't happen to be fortunate enough to encounter their soul-mate is a gruesome thought, to me. It doesn't sound right. It just conjures up the wrong image for me."

Hmmm...yeah, I guess I see what you're saying. At least to a point. And I have to admit, I really have no idea how to answer you...because I've only heard the term "soul-mates" used with TV and books. For all I know, it's a fictional concept. And I've never seen/read a story where the soul-mates never MET each other! They don't always *end up* together, of course, but they DO have some form of contact. (Afterall, *that's* the story! lol) When you say they "don't happen to encounter" one another...you bring up something I have no reference for. Although, as far as that goes...I would be willing to bet that MOST people go through their life without feeling totally "fulfilled"...or however you wanna term it. Maybe they don't admit it, or even recognize it, but I think it's true. And no, it doesn't seem right or fair to me at all. Definitely a "wrong image" to live in...and gruesome could probably describe it. =(

"Yeah, I agree. It's about not achieving the greatest potential, or whatever that means. But just because you might not be fortunate to meet that person, shouldn't equate to the sense that you are left empty or are not complete. That would be a sad state."

It would be, I know. But since when did you care about "sad states," Skovde?? ;) I thought you liked that sort of thing?! I mean, what do you call TEOTW...or most of S2?

Reply#9, from Skovde; Opposite sides of a chasm, we are 8), 7/11/03
sko said-"The alien essence is their "soul" it becomes the soul for the human clone."

s1r replied-"Hmmm...ok, so why do you think that? I have a hard time seeing it...because it doesn't allow for this bond between Max and Liz."

Sko- I think it does allow for a connection between Max and Liz. If an alien essence and a human soul are pretty much the same thing, then they can interact. The alien essence was able to hybridize/mesh with a human, why couldn't it also interact with a soul? Why must it preclude any bonding between Max and Liz? I think his alien essence, hence, ability, is what allowed them to connect in the first place. His essence and her soul touched each other deeply, it sounds ok to me.

S1r-"Their connection exists on a "spiritual" level. And if Max had no human soul, but only Zan's "essence" in its place, then how can he have this relationship with Liz? I think it's safe to say that she and Zan couldn't be "soul-mates"!

Sko- I don't see why you place a restriction on things. A human soul and an alien soul could be derived from the same source. I don't think that humans are sheltered amongst themselves in a spiritual sense. I don't think it's like one big "spiritual quarantine"...some people would say that humans and animals have spiritual connections, so the notion that aliens and humans could have spiritual connections isn't a strange notion, to me.

S1r-Which is one of the main reasons why I'm looking at this the way that I am...plus the fact that I KNOW humans have souls.

Sko- How? It is an accepted fact for the majority of people, true, but isn't it a faith based acceptance?
There are people who would tell you that souls are just some fantasy fairy tale. I'm not one of them, but I would have to agree that it would be difficult to have to prove that statement as being a fact. You seem to have tight restrictions as to how souls connect, you need some requirement for Max to connect with Liz, that he has to be a human with a human soul. I wouldn't place such restrictions on their ability to connect in a spiritual/soul-mate fashion.

S1r-"With Antarians, there's no way to tell. Bringing me to the idea that Max (and the others) have human souls...and are only "alien," in the nature of SOME of their cells. This is partly why I said it would "screw the whole story."

Sko- I don't think it screws any of the story, I guess, because I am not restricting person to person connections on specified criteria, such as both of them have to have human souls. I think Max essence adapts to human ways and human life, I think his soul becomes more human, why can't souls be adaptable to the vessel they are occupying?

If Max wasn't able to live in the Evans household, then his soul would not have become more human. I am assuming that souls are a generic consciousness that aren't limited to one species on one planet.

s1r-"Wait a minute, Skovde...how did Max heal souls?? I don't get it. He can *connect* to them, obviously, which is what he did with Liz' grandma. But what do you mean by he "heals" them? And here of course, you're assuming the thing about Max having Zan's "soul." Maybe the Antarians knew about human souls, and maybe not. I'm still thinking not...but again, I don't see Zan as having a "soul," or of something like that existing in Max. JMO "

Sko- Well, in the traditional sense, when a person gets shot, is sick, or is about to die, their souls begin to detach from the body to go to heaven or hell.

When Liz gets shot, I think part of bringing her back includes healing her wounds and binding her soul back into her now healthy body. He has to mend the disruption in her wounded soul. With her grandma, he couldn't "fix" her body to enable the soul to return, so it appeared out of body before Liz. If there are body/soul connections, which I assume, then I think any fatal wound to the body would have some effect on the soul...both need to be mended and patched.

s1r-"I say they are "playing God," because they created new life, and tried to *CONTROL*, or rule it...to decide what that life should become, and what's its purpose should be. =( Very big no-no"

Sko- Is it better to allow the devil to overrun your world than to try to save the lives of your only hope? They are not playing God, which you deem "CONTROL". It isn't their intention to try to control Max and Liz, you are looking at things from a narrow Max/Liz oriented focus.

**They are trying to save their world from Kivahr's madness, in a manner that is avaliable to them.**
They are not playing God, in my view.

S1r-" And I have to admit, I really have no idea how to answer you...because I've only heard the term "soul-mates" used with TV and books. For all I know, it's a fictional concept. And I've never seen/read a story where the soul-mates never MET each other! They don't always *end up* together, of course, but they DO have some form of contact. (Afterall, *that's* the story! lol) "

Sko- I am not the one who placed emphasis on the term soul-mate in this discussion. Of course, it is a huge theme in the story, and it is an obscure them as we have agreed.

s1r-"It would be, I know. But since when did you care about "sad states," Skovde?? ;) I thought you liked that sort of thing?! I mean, what do you call TEOTW...or most of S2?"

Sko- Now you just don't understand how I can view things from a broad focus, while you view things from a narrow focus. I see profound strength in TEOTW, the will and fortitude to make a sacrifice for the benefit of the entire planet. Yes it was sad, but I did not revel in that aspect of the story. It exposed facets of Max and Liz character that would not have been able to be seen without facing such a difficult dilemma.

I think stories are an outlet to "escape reality" to become part of the story, to become a character in the story and all that...but I also think stories can offer the opportunity to learn.

Reply#10, from season1rulez; lol…no kidding! =), 7/12/03
but hey, at least the board is FUN again! =D Yeah!

"I don't see why you place a restriction on things. A human soul and an alien soul could be derived from the same source. I don't think that humans are sheltered amongst themselves in a spiritual sense. I don't think it's like one big "spiritual quarantine"...some people would say that humans and animals have spiritual connections, so the notion that aliens and humans could have spiritual connections isn't a strange notion, to me."

No, I didn't mean they couldn't develop a "spiritual connection"...assuming of course, that Antarians have this capability. The catch here, again, is our differing views of "soul-mate." I'm not about to comment on "sources" of souls. (That could get very creepy very quickly! lol) But my idea of soul-mates, would suggest that the spiritual connection was there even before Max and Liz were. Normally/historically, Antarians would never have any kind of contact with humans. How could Liz and Zan be "soul-mates," if they were never going to enter the same galaxy?? As for how deep their "spiritual connection/interatction" could become...that would depend on the similarities between alien essence and human soul. I still can't see that they could be very significant. Nasedo was pure alien. What did HE have that resembled a human soul?? Hopefully nothing... =(

"How? It is an accepted fact for the majority of people, true, but isn't it a faith based acceptance? There are people who would tell you that souls are just some fantasy fairy tale. I'm not one of them, but I would have to agree that it would be difficult to have to prove that statement as being a fact. You seem to have tight restrictions as to how souls connect, you need some requirement for Max to connect with Liz, that he has to be a human with a human soul. I wouldn't place such restrictions on their ability to connect in a spiritual/soul-mate fashion."

Yes, it is a faith based acceptance. But so is EVERYTHING, Skovde. If I were Hindu, I would be telling you that our entire existence, universe, and everything therein are merely a figment of our collective imaginations! The realization that humans have souls comes from within yourself...it is reasonable for me to assume that if I have a soul...so do you, and the rest of humanity. But I don't think that can be "proven" -- scientifically, historically, or ANY way. And actually no, I wouldn't stipulate that Max would have to be human, or have a human soul, in order to have this connection with Liz. But it seems that something similar would be required...and that they'd have to have a reasonable chance of making contact, in some way, at some point!

"I think Max essence adapts to human ways and human life, I think his soul becomes more human, why can't souls be adaptable to the vessel they are occupying?"

Woah. I'd get dizzy, trying to imagine that. It's totally contrary to my idea of a "soul." I mean, I don't understand souls to be something that can ever alter, change, or conform...in their very nature. I don't think it's possible to become more or less "human," in the sense of your soul. You either are or you aren't. You can become more or less evil, or good...but that won't change what you are, in the "ultimate" sense.

"When Liz gets shot, I think part of bringing her back includes healing her wounds and binding her soul back into her now healthy body. He has to mend the disruption in her wounded soul. With her grandma, he couldn't "fix" her body to enable the soul to return, so it appeared out of body before Liz. If there are body/soul connections, which I assume, then I think any fatal wound to the body would have some effect on the soul...both need to be mended and patched."

Hmmm...interesting thought. It seems that the body/soul connection is maintained by the "amount" of life that's there...or something to do with that, anyway? In near death experiences, like you were saying, the soul seems to "drift" away, as the life of the body is doing so. But they "return" together, as well. I wouldn't see the soul as needing to be brought back, or "mended" exactly. Because I think it just does that, when the body is healed. I mean, how could it not??

"Is it better to allow the devil to overrun your world than to try to save the lives of your only hope? They are not playing God, which you deem "CONTROL". It isn't their intention to try to control Max and Liz, you are looking at things from a narrow Max/Liz oriented focus."

Hey now. If you're gonna take shots at my ego, you could at least be gentle about it! lol =) I hate being told I'm narrow-minded...more than just about anything...so go easy on that! ;) lol Anyway, how did they try to control LIZ? They tried to control the *clones*, by mandating their "destiny." They have no right to do that. If they wanted robots, then they should've been making machines, not hybrids. And why does saying *that*, mean I have "a narrow Max/Liz oriented focus"?? I know the Antarians are trying to save their world from rampant evil...but even so, ends can NOT justify means.

"I see profound strength in TEOTW, the will and fortitude to make a sacrifice for the benefit of the entire planet. Yes it was sad, but I did not revel in that aspect of the story. It exposed facets of Max and Liz character that would not have been able to be seen without facing such a difficult dilemma."

Ok, now THAT is "gruesome"! It's no different than saying "you can't realize someone's strength/character until you break them." =( Like what they were threatening to do to Max in the White Room, or what once happened in Roman torture chambers, or on "Braveheart." (Though, that one probably wouldn't count cuz it didn't last long enough.) Why do you want to see agony like this?? It's horrible. =(

I think stories are an outlet to "escape reality" to become part of the story, to become a character in the story and all that...but I also think stories can offer the opportunity to learn.

Definitely...ITA. =)

Reply#11, from Skovde; FUN? You call paddling in circles FUN?, 7/12/03
s1r-"No, I didn't mean they couldn't develop a "spiritual connection"...assuming of course, that Antarians have this capability. The catch here, again, is our differing views of "soul-mate." I'm not about to comment on "sources" of souls. (That could get very creepy very quickly! lol) But my idea of soul-mates, would suggest that the spiritual connection was there even before Max and Liz were. Normally/historically, Antarians would never have any kind of contact with humans. How could Liz and Zan be "soul-mates," if they were never going to enter the same galaxy??"

skov- How would Max and Liz be soul-mates PERIOD. I have said this a gajillion times before, Max would never BE if the Antahrians didn't try to save Zan's life, an act which you have pretty much called an abomination. The original human that we call Max would be like Michael's DNA donor, some farmer guy that lived a long time ago. Max and Liz wouldn't have a connection if it weren't for his alien abilites. You get stuck on this aspect, where I don't get stuck. You have a rigid concept of the term soul-mate, I don't...I allow some flexibility.

s1r-"As for how deep their "spiritual connection/interatction" could become...that would depend on the similarities between alien essence and human soul. I still can't see that they could be very significant. Nasedo was pure alien. What did HE have that resembled a human soul?? Hopefully nothing... =("

sko-Again, you aren't using a broad perspective. Nasedo was pretty much an Antahrian version of a computer. He was a manufactured being that had a specific task...transport and protect. They were programmed, according to Cal. Nasedo wasn't the prototype for each and every Antahrian being. And why didn't he have a soul? It might have been a dark and murky essence, it seemed that way, especially when Liz connected with him!

s1r-"Yes, it is a faith based acceptance. But so is EVERYTHING, Skovde."

sko- No, there is difference between saying I have blood flowing inside of me and saying I have a soul inside of me...that is what I am saying. I can show you my blood in a tangible way, I don't know how I can show you my soul in a tangible way. The soul is an abstract, intangible to our 5 basic senses term.

s1r- If I were Hindu,[sko-isn't that Buddhist?] I would be telling you that our entire existence, universe, and everything therein are merely a figment of our collective imaginations! The realization that humans have souls comes from within yourself...it is reasonable for me to assume that if I have a soul...so do you, and the rest of humanity.

sko- I clarified that I wasn't in disagreement about the issue of souls.

s1r-"But I don't think that can be "proven" -- scientifically, historically, or ANY way. And actually no, I wouldn't stipulate that Max would have to be human, or have a human soul, in order to have this connection with Liz. But it seems that something similar would be required...and that they'd have to have a reasonable chance of making contact, in some way, at some point!"

sko- When they made contact in the 3rd grade, I have no problems with the notion that their souls reached out and touched each other. You have this requirement that soul-mates have some kind of pre-planned arrangement before their lives begin. They are brought into life with a deficit, needing a soul-mate to provide surplus. I wouldn't think that soul-mates would prearrange the idea of being born with a deficit, because then they would have to know that each soul-mate would eventually meet the other, and I don't think that is a given.

s1r-"Woah. I'd get dizzy, trying to imagine that. It's totally contrary to my idea of a "soul." I mean, I don't understand souls to be something that can ever alter, change, or conform...in their very nature. I don't think it's possible to become more or less "human," in the sense of your soul. You either are or you aren't. You can become more or less evil, or good...but that won't change what you are, in the "ultimate" sense.

sko- Just look at souls from the point of view of the cosmic level and not an earth bound level. Why do souls HAVE to fit into a species catagory? Why do souls have to be unique to humans, why do souls have to be anthropomorphically quantified and qualified?
Souls are not human, souls are amorphous consciousness that adapt to the vessel they are occupying. They perceive a 3d life via the senses of the organism that contains them.
[That is more or less a Hindu concept, so it is not a far-fetched idea]
Max essence is not restricted to living in an Antahrian body, because they were able to place it in a human clone. Heck, look at Clayton, Max essence entered into the dying man and Max was in a struggle with Clayton's soul/mind throughout the whole episode. Well, the dying man hit the ground and perished...Liz kissed the body and Max appeared. Max's essence was still around and the body was there with some gandarium in it and Max's essence took care of the details to become J.Behr like.

s1r-"I wouldn't see the soul as needing to be brought back, or "mended" exactly. Because I think it just does that, when the body is healed. I mean, how could it not??"

sko- When the body is dying, or is just on the edge of life and death, the connections between the soul and body are no longer, they are broken or severed. There must be some connection that is disrputed, especially during a traumatic event like a gun-shot. Max has to "guide" the soul back, he has to work with the person's soul, and he has to repair what was broken. He HAS shown that he can connect with a person's soul.

s1r-"Hey now. If you're gonna take shots at my ego, you could at least be gentle about it! lol =) I hate being told I'm narrow-minded...more than just about anything...so go easy on that! ;) lol

Anyway, how did they try to control LIZ? They tried to control the *clones*, by mandating their "destiny." They have no right to do that."

sko- YES they do, especially if that is what they [the royal 4] told them to do. They didn't tell them to crash the UFO, they didn't tell them to set them loose on earth...

**They told them to save their lives if we die so we can return to save our planet from Kivahr.** That would have been their priority.

s1r-"If they wanted robots, then they should've been making machines, not hybrids. And why does saying *that*, mean I have "a narrow Max/Liz oriented focus"?? I know the Antarians are trying to save their world from rampant evil...but even so, ends can NOT justify means."

sko- You are employing a narrow focus in all of this. 8) It is pinpointed on Max and Liz and their well-being. You are not considering the fate of earth, or the fate of Antahr. And what happens when you try to brush the Antahr past under the rug? Kivahr shows up and overruns the world and Max and Liz die.

s1r-"Ok, now THAT is "gruesome"! It's no different than saying "you can't realize someone's strength/character until you break them." =( Like what they were threatening to do to Max in the White Room, or what once happened in Roman torture chambers, or on "Braveheart." (Though, that one probably wouldn't count cuz it didn't last long enough.) Why do you want to see agony like this?? It's horrible. =("

sko - There is an appreciation of an actor's or actress' ability to portray such an incredible array of emotions. I don't WANT to see them suffer, geez, I am banging my head against a wall. If I had to choose a scene to escape from reality I wouldn't choose that episode!!! I'd choose "Sexual Healing" or some other pleasant episode.

I thought Braveheart was a great movie, as was the ending. I don't crave or want to see agony the way you are trying to ascribe to me...I'd rather that the evil be exposed for what it is so one might learn to avoid it in real life. You are focusing your attention on the result of evil, I am focusing my attention on the exposure of the hand of the evil that swings the axe. What better way to learn about evil creatures than through fiction? Need I repeat myself, I don't delight in watching this agony, and I wouldn't want to put myself into such a scene.

Reply#12, from season1rulez; ?, 7/13/03
Er, well...it doesn't really seem like "paddling in circles" to me...it seems more like I'm talking to you, and getting a look at whole new perspective on Roswell. =) I said it was fun because it's really interesting to me. I like it. =) But now I'm confused...it sort of sounds like you're annoyed by the whole thing? I wasn't intending to do that to anyone. It's ok by me, if you'd rather not discuss it anymore? I mean, if you think uhm..."paddling in circles" sucks, I'm willing to shut-up. =) Ok?

"How would Max and Liz be soul-mates PERIOD. I have said this a gajillion times before, Max would never BE if the Antahrians didn't try to save Zan's life, an act which you have pretty much called an abomination. The original human that we call Max would be like Michael's DNA donor, some farmer guy that lived a long time ago. Max and Liz wouldn't have a connection if it weren't for his alien abilites. You get stuck on this aspect, where I don't get stuck. You have a rigid concept of the term soul-mate, I don't...I allow some flexibility."

I do? I don't quite see how either of us is being more "rigid," or more "flexible," Skovde. We both have our theories, and we both PREFER our own theories...what are you talking about? Why couldn't Max and Liz have a connection without his alien abilities? I know they got together because he was able to heal her...but if you're talking about their "spiritual connection"...I don't know why it hinges on that? Oh, and I should explain, I guess. I'm not saying that I fault the Antarians for trying to save Zan - for cloning him. But they created a whole new being...part Zan, part human. Again, not attacking *that*...but the so called "abomination," was their thought to rule the life that emerged. Just because they mixed the cells together, doesn't mean they OWN what came from that. And I have no idea how people "become" soul-mates, or what makes it happen...that question is pretty similar to the "origin of souls" thing, I guess.

"They were programmed, according to Cal. Nasedo wasn't the prototype for each and every Antahrian being. And why didn't he have a soul? It might have been a dark and murky essence, it seemed that way, especially when Liz connected with him!"

If they were programmed, then how could Nasedo make a deal with Kahvar? I wouldn't say he had a soul because there's nothing in him to suggest it...I mean, by my definition, the devil doesn't have a "soul." Though I might say he has a "dark and murky essence," among other things!

"No, there is difference between saying I have blood flowing inside of me and saying I have a soul inside of me...that is what I am saying. I can show you my blood in a tangible way, I don't know how I can show you my soul in a tangible way. The soul is an abstract, intangible to our 5 basic senses term."

Tangible doesn't have to mean anything. I understand that more faith is required for some things, than others...but it's still faith all the same. Everything, in a person's own mind, is real or unreal based *entirely* on their perception. Society has concluded certain things about "proof," and the 5 senses, and reality. But this doesn't matter especially...I don't personally believe that WE, as people, get to determine reality. It is what is. We're just trying to figure it all out. No matter how much everyone disagrees, or argues, I think reality is unchanging. But again, for US, it's all in how we perceive it. That's why I said everything is based on faith. I have seen this "proven," right in front of my eyes, time and again...because I've spent my life dealing with profoundly religious people. They all are adamant about things that seem totally ridiculous to everyone else. They all believe "reality" to be something different, and all have their own "concrete proof" for why that is true. It all comes down to perception, and interpretation. You could find someone, somewhere, to argue and challenge EVERY single thing you ever thought was "fact." Everyone likes to be SURE that they're right...but they all contradict each other!! Who's to say "this is real"?

"You have this requirement that soul-mates have some kind of pre-planned arrangement before their lives begin. They are brought into life with a deficit, needing a soul-mate to provide surplus. I wouldn't think that soul-mates would prearrange the idea of being born with a deficit, because then they would have to know that each soul-mate would eventually meet the other, and I don't think that is a given."

In my mind, there's no picture of someone with a "deficit." I obviously said something to give you this impression, and I'm not sure how to correct it...but what you're describing, is not what I meant! lol ;) Did you ever lose someone close to you, or know someone who did? It leaves a space inside you when they're gone. A space that's never filled again, but you always feel it there...empty. I think that occurrence is similar to the soul-mate thing, in certain ways. But I just don't see as it being compared to a "deficit." =(

"isn't that Buddhist?"

It very well could be. lol =) I haven't read up on either of them for a while, so I might be getting them mixed up. I thought I remembered it as being Hindu...but now I don't know. lol

"Just look at souls from the point of view of the cosmic level and not an earth bound level. Why do souls HAVE to fit into a species catagory? Why do souls have to be unique to humans, why do souls have to be anthropomorphically quantified and qualified? Souls are not human, souls are amorphous consciousness that adapt to the vessel they are occupying. They perceive a 3d life via the senses of the organism that contains them. [That is more or less a Hindu concept, so it is not a far-fetched idea]
Max essence is not restricted to living in an Antahrian body, because they were able to place it in a human clone."

I'm not sure what you mean by "cosmic" and "earth-bound" levels? Or a "species category"? I didn't say souls have to be unique to humans...I said I don't assume that Antarians have them. Who decides if this statement is far-fetched?? ;) -- "they perceive a 3D life via the senses of the organism that contains them." That's the re-incarnation thing, I guess? I am not Hindu. I am not convinced (or "unconvinced") of anything about how souls are connected to bodies, except that they are. I'm not convinced they can be re-incarnated, or found in a clone, or anything other than a human being. As far as Roswell goes, I have not assumed that Antarians have souls, because I have no reason to. One reason *not* to, I think, is that the "pure" aliens don't...by my definition. ;)

"When the body is dying, or is just on the edge of life and death, the connections between the soul and body are no longer, they are broken or severed. There must be some connection that is disrputed, especially during a traumatic event like a gun-shot. Max has to "guide" the soul back, he has to work with the person's soul, and he has to repair what was broken."

I disagree...I mean, yeah, I can see what you're saying and everything...but I just don't think it's like that. Yes, I admit to having no "proof"...it's JMO. ;)

"YES they do, especially if that is what they [the royal 4] told them to do."

No way. You might...just MAYBE...have an argument there, IF the clone had *only* been of the Antarians. But it wasn't. The story changed drastically, when they started "mixing" things.

"You are not considering the fate of earth, or the fate of Antahr. And what happens when you try to brush the Antahr past under the rug?"

How have I "not considered" their fates? And I'm not brushing the Antar past under any rugs! lol

"I don't WANT to see them suffer, geez, I am banging my head against a wall. If I had to choose a scene to escape from reality I wouldn't choose that episode!!! I'd choose "Sexual Healing" or some other pleasant episode. I thought Braveheart was a great movie, as was the ending. I don't crave or want to see agony the way you are trying to ascribe to me...I'd rather that the evil be exposed for what it is so one might learn to avoid it in real life."

Wow. Skovde, I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've ever heard you say anything about banging your head! =D I can't say anything bad about Braveheart, really...it's history, what could I say? I just don't want to SEE that kind of thing...it tends to make my stomach hurt. And make me regret being human, knowing what's been done at our hands. What do you mean by you'd "rather the evil be exposed for what it is, so one might learn to avoid it" in reality? Just that if we see suffering on TV, we'll seek to prevent it from taking place? =)

"You are focusing your attention on the result of evil, I am focusing my attention on the exposure of the hand of the evil that swings the axe. What better way to learn about evil creatures than through fiction?"

Amen. ;) No better way. And probably no better purpose for imagination either...except for maybe one. Explain the thing about "exposure of the hand of the evil that swings the axe"?? Not sure what you mean...

Ok, so I was thinking about your ideas on Max, Zan, and souls...and I have another question. Do you assume that Zan loved Ava on Antar (creating a spiritual bond)? And if so, (also assuming that the hybrids have the alien souls)...how could Max not love Tess on Earth??

Reply#13, from Skovde; Paddling in synchronicity is fun., 7/13/03
s1r-"if you'd rather not discuss it anymore? I mean, if you think uhm..."paddling in circles" sucks, I'm willing to shut-up. =) Ok?"

sko- Not having a discussion is like sitting by the river twiddling ones thumbs, [which might be called boring, or slow to some].

Now getting into a boat [having a discussion] is different than sitting by a river, it is **different** than boring and slow, but it is not necessarily super fun.

I don't know, I just think we seem to be paddling in opposite directions and aren't really heading anywhere, but in a circle. I would say "fun" is when two people are paddling in the same direction. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be paddling wherever you want to go, it's just that I want to paddle somewhere else and thus we are going in circles.

s1r"I do? I don't quite see how either of us is being more "rigid," or more "flexible," Skovde. We both have our theories, and we both PREFER our own theories...what are you talking about?"

sko- Yes, we both have our own theories. I am saying that your soul-mate theory is rigid. You even said that soul-mates could never love another because they "belong" to each other. You said that Max could never love Tess. That to me is rigid. If Max has free-will, then he could love whomever he loved. Your theories are wrapped around a conclusive state, that Max and Liz should be together, and nothing should ever disrupt that state.

I would say my theories allow for disruption of that state. Although I prefer to see Max and Liz together, married and all that, I allow more flexibility when it comes to their being apart. You demand a sex scene, I see why there might be a good reason to edit it out....etc.

S1r-"Why couldn't Max and Liz have a connection without his alien abilities? I know they got together because he was able to heal her...but if you're talking about their "spiritual connection"...I don't know why it hinges on that?"

Sko- It doesn't hinge on that. But when he connected with her soul in the Crashdown, and he let her see himself...that was all his alien-hybrid ability working. That is what actually happened.

S1r-"Oh, and I should explain, I guess. I'm not saying that I fault the Antarians for trying to save Zan - for cloning him. But they created a whole new being...part Zan, part human. Again, not attacking *that*...but the so called "abomination," was their thought to rule the life that emerged. Just because they mixed the cells together, doesn't mean they OWN what came from that."

Sko- But the Antahrians weren't creating a life to live in earth society. Your focus is on this new life that comes out of a pod chamber, but it's hard to know what, exactly, is coming out of the pod chamber. To the Antahrians, it was a means to save Zan's life...not to create a new earth life.

You would say that when you form a new life, it is a new and different being. I would say that the Antahrians were involved in a crash that disrupted their plans at saving Zan, and that he escaped the pods without their knowledge.

To the Antahrians, this new life was Zan, or should have been Zan. To them, the life they created also desired to save Antahr. It is only because that life somehow escaped the pod chamber that they are now facing a challenging decision. This new life should not have been brought up in a human family. Yes it was, and it makes everything mucky.

I get the feeling that your theory/opinion is that Max should say
"screw them, Liz and I are going to stay put cause I am in love with her...they can't tell us what to do!" My theory/opinion involves allowing Zan's original desire to have some weight. I wouldn't mind if Max and Liz decided to stay put, but I wouldn't demand that they stay put. You would say that since they are soul-mates, then Antahr would never be of importance to Max, I wouldn't say that.

s1r-"If they were programmed, then how could Nasedo make a deal with Kahvar? I wouldn't say he had a soul because there's nothing in him to suggest it...I mean, by my definition, the devil doesn't have a "soul." Though I might say he has a "dark and murky essence," among other things!"

Sko- Because we don't know what Kivahr was capable of doing. And we don't know the extent of their programming, what functions they had to follow...we just have a vague idea...and perhaps, Nasedo didn't make a deal with Kivahr. Maybe Tess made a deal in the sewers or was mind-messed by Nicholas, and blamed it on Nasedo.

s1r-"Tangible doesn't have to mean anything. I understand that more faith is required for some things, than others...but it's still faith all the same. Everything, in a person's own mind, is real or unreal based *entirely* on their perception."

Sko- I don't remember the context of this topic. Soul-mates maybe. If you remove the entire population of a planet, each person is gone...there is still an ocean of sensations that permeate the planet. *THAT is TANGIBLE*.

S1r-"Society has concluded certain things about "proof," and the 5 senses, and reality. But this doesn't matter especially...I don't personally believe that WE, as people, get to determine reality. It is what is. We're just trying to figure it all out. No matter how much everyone disagrees, or argues, I think reality is unchanging. But again, for US, it's all in how we perceive it. That's why I said everything is based on faith. I have seen this "proven," right in front of my eyes, time and again...because I've spent my life dealing with profoundly religious people. They all are adamant about things that seem totally ridiculous to everyone else. They all believe "reality" to be something different, and all have their own "concrete proof" for why that is true. It all comes down to perception, and interpretation. You could find someone, somewhere, to argue and challenge EVERY single thing you ever thought was "fact." Everyone likes to be SURE that they're right...but they all contradict each other!! Who's to say "this is real"?"

Sko- This is not presented in a manner that is easy to respond to without getting "crossed" signals /misunderstandings...and I know that has been trouble in the past...so I'll pass on it for now.

s1r-"In my mind, there's no picture of someone with a "deficit." I obviously said something to give you this impression, and I'm not sure how to correct it...but what you're describing, is not what I meant! lol ;) Did you ever lose someone close to you, or know someone who did? It leaves a space inside you when they're gone. A space that's never filled again, but you always feel it there...empty. I think that occurrence is similar to the soul-mate thing, in certain ways. But I just don't see as it being compared to a "deficit." =( "

sko- Can you imagine being BORN with that feeling...ugh, DEFICIT in my mind. And then say you never meet your soul-mate, harsh...but maybe that's the risk that soul-mates are willing to take?

s1r-"It very well could be. lol =) I haven't read up on either of them for a while, so I might be getting them mixed up. I thought I remembered it as being Hindu...but now I don't know. Lol"

sko- It could be all of them in some ways. Brahma. Buddha.

s1r-"I'm not sure what you mean by "cosmic" and "earth-bound" levels? Or a "species category"? I didn't say souls have to be unique to humans...I said I don't assume that Antarians have them. Who decides if this statement is far-fetched?? ;)"

sko- I think it makes it easier to say screw them, that soulless bunch of life cloners. To me, that is why you believe they don't have souls.

Well, earth bound means that I am a human and everything else associated with life must follow human standards and if it is not human than it must not have human qualities, i.e. souls. I am human and I will only use human reference to ascribe my opinions to the rest of the universe. Cosmic level would be more like that things aren't restricted in an anthropomorphic way.

s1r-"As far as Roswell goes, I have not assumed that Antarians have souls, because I have no reason to. One reason *not* to, I think, is that the "pure" aliens don't...by my definition. ;)"

sko- Pure aliens don't? That's quite the conclusion. Hey, that's your definition, not mine.

s1r-"No way. You might...just MAYBE...have an argument there, IF the clone had *only* been of the Antarians. But it wasn't. The story changed drastically, when they started "mixing" things."

sko- To them, mixing things made sense and wasn't violating any codes or laws. To them it was similar to an organ transplant...the DNA being similar to an organ.

s1r-" I can't say anything bad about Braveheart, really...it's history, what could I say? I just don't want to SEE that kind of thing...it tends to make my stomach hurt. And make me regret being human, knowing what's been done at our hands. What do you mean by you'd "rather the evil be exposed for what it is, so one might learn to avoid it" in reality? Just that if we see suffering on TV, we'll seek to prevent it from taking place? =) "

Sko- Sure, why not...I mean, does that seem silly?

s1r-"Explain the thing about "exposure of the hand of the evil that swings the axe"?? Not sure what you mean..."

Sko- I mean, I now know what my targets look like and act like...I see the result of evil, I shed a tear and I look at the hand that swings the axe. I don't dweellllll on the tears that are shed when watching a movie, or story...I focus on the cause of those tears. That is what I take from such stories...not relishing in watching everyone cry and get sad, like you seem to think I do. You seem to focus on the tears and the tears alone.

s1r-"Ok, so I was thinking about your ideas on Max, Zan, and souls...and I have another question. Do you assume that Zan loved Ava on Antar (creating a spiritual bond)? And if so, (also assuming that the hybrids have the alien souls)...how could Max not love Tess on Earth??"

sko- I think Zan and Ava were in love, but not the same way that Max loved Liz. Not like he loved Liz. I think Max and Liz are soul-mates and they were brought together by something or someone in a very peculiar manner. With a very peculiar origin.

Reply#14, from season1rulez; alright then… , 7/14/03
"I don't know, I just think we seem to be paddling in opposite directions and aren't really heading anywhere, but in a circle. I would say "fun" is when two people are paddling in the same direction. I'm not saying that you shouldn't be paddling wherever you want to go, it's just that I want to paddle somewhere else and thus we are going in circles."

Uhm, ok...so where should we be "heading," exactly? Or, where is it that you want to "go"? Some people I've known can't stand to "debate" back and forth about things. Particularly if they don't think they have a chance to "convince" someone of their point/view/theory. =( I'm not so much that way, I guess...I mean, yeah, it feels good to do that...but I tend to just take whatever's thrown at me, in the form of "discussions," and grill it. =) IMO, it's worth the time. I never fail to learn *something*, by "arguing" with people...and I'll go for just about anything, if it stimulates thought. ;)

"I am saying that your soul-mate theory is rigid. You even said that soul-mates could never love another because they "belong" to each other. You said that Max could never love Tess. That to me is rigid. If Max has free-will, then he could love whomever he loved. Your theories are wrapped around a conclusive state, that Max and Liz should be together, and nothing should ever disrupt that state. I would say my theories allow for disruption of that state. Although I prefer to see Max and Liz together, married and all that, I allow more flexibility when it comes to their being apart. You demand a sex scene, I see why there might be a good reason to edit it out....etc."

There IS the question...as to how much of love really comes down to CHOICE, and how much of it is feeling. Max can *be with* whoever he wants. The degree to which it can be forced, to anything beyond that, is hard to know. Anyway, you can't fault a dreamer being "wrapped up" in Max and Liz...they're *awesome*! ;) And if you remember, Skovde, I actually AGREED with you...that the sex scene had to be true to their entire relationship.

"To the Antahrians, this new life was Zan, or should have been Zan. To them, the life they created also desired to save Antahr. It is only because that life somehow escaped the pod chamber that they are now facing a challenging decision. This new life should not have been brought up in a human family. Yes it was, and it makes everything mucky. I get the feeling that your theory/opinion is that Max should say "screw them, Liz and I are going to stay put cause I am in love with her...they can't tell us what to do!" My theory/opinion involves allowing Zan's original desire to have some weight. I wouldn't mind if Max and Liz decided to stay put, but I wouldn't demand that they stay put. You would say that since they are soul-mates, then Antahr would never be of importance to Max, I wouldn't say that."

My theory is that Max should say/do whatever he determines to be best...without any doubt that it's his decision. The Antarians *can't* tell them what their choice should be, it's not their right. And that needs to be *very clear* with everyone. Whether or not the new life was "brought up in a human family," still does not change the fact that it's part human. The *choice* is always there, regardless of whatever. That doesn't mean I think Antar would never be of importance to them. Of course it would! Part of who they are is their incredible value/power to the Antarians. A lot was done, so that they COULD come back and turn the tables...save the world. Besides, it always matters if people are in bondage, or suffering injustice...and in this case, they have a *specific* connection. But - "importance" does NOT equal "deciding factor."

"If you remove the entire population of a planet, each person is gone...there is still an ocean of sensations that permeate the planet. *THAT is TANGIBLE*."

"Ocean of sensations"?? Skovde, I have NO idea what you just said...sorry, it's late at night, again ;)...maybe try explaining another way?

"This is not presented in a manner that is easy to respond to without getting "crossed" signals/misunderstandings...and I know that has been trouble in the past...so I'll pass on it for now."

You mean because I'm easily confused, or because you think I'll accuse you of not allowing for other opinions? lol ;) And uhm...what manner *should* it be "presented" in?

"I think it makes it easier to say screw them, that soulless bunch of life cloners. To me, that is why you believe they don't have souls. ...Cosmic level would be more like that things aren't restricted in an anthropomorphic way."

Actually, the biggest reason why I say they don't have "souls," as such...is because I don't think the hybrids could have BOTH a human *and* an alien soul. Nor do I think it would be possible to "mesh" the 2. It would have to be "either or," in my mind. And given *that* assumption, it's easier...and preferable...to see them with the human soul. "anthropomorphic"?? Geez, Skovde, I can't even pronounce that! lol ;) If you're gonna insist on using this word, you'll have tell me what the hell it means! lol =)

"Hey, that's your definition, not mine."

yeah, yeah...I know.

"To them, mixing things made sense and wasn't violating any codes or laws. To them it was similar to an organ transplant...the DNA being similar to an organ."

Another reason for me to think they have no souls. And I don't care about their lack of respect for human life...it would only make me MORE unhappy with them, not less.

"Sure, why not...I mean, does that seem silly?"

No actually. Not at all. =)

"I mean, I now know what my targets look like and act like...I see the result of evil, I shed a tear and I look at the hand that swings the axe. I don't dweellllll on the tears that are shed when watching a movie, or story...I focus on the cause of those tears. That is what I take from such stories...not relishing in watching everyone cry and get sad, like you seem to think I do. You seem to focus on the tears and the tears alone."

Could you explain this within the context of TEOTW? I'm not sure how to... And I fail to see the justification for so many tears. WHY wouldn't you seek to "prove the point," while creating as little pain as possible?? (If you don't relish it.) You could argue the necessity for SOME tears, at some points. But there comes a place where it is *too much.* What the world will become, without mercy or compassion, is something I hope to never see. And the LACK of those things here is disturbing. =(

"I think Zan and Ava were in love, but not the same way that Max loved Liz. Not like he loved Liz."

Well, I know what *I* would mean, if I said that...but I'm interested to hear if it's the same for you. Care to elaborate? =)

Reply#15, from Skovde; Heading? I was about to head over and, 7/14/03
post this reply on the front of the list instead of replying here. 8)

s1r-"Uhm, ok...so where should we be "heading," exactly? Or, where is it that you want to "go"? Some people I've known can't stand to "debate" back and forth about things. Particularly if they don't think they have a chance to "convince" someone of their point/view/theory. =( I'm not so much that way, I guess...I mean, yeah, it feels good to do that but I tend to just take whatever's thrown at me, in the form of "discussions," and grill it. =) IMO, it's worth the time. I never fail to learn *something*, by "arguing" with people...and I'll go for just about anything, if it stimulates thought. ;)"

sko- Hey! what about this from article #2787?-["Plus, Skovde went ahead and moved our conversation up...to the current page...so I didn't think to go back to the old thread for a while. ;) Glad to hear that someone agrees with me about "destiny" and the dupes! LOL =D Maybe ya wanna come over to the new thread, and help me persuade Skovde! ;) hehe..."]

sko- I pretty much already know that you have wrapped your theories around everything Max/Liz. From the Tess mind-warp, the Kyle's baby issue, the desire to see the sex scene in the DVD, the "soul-mate" Max-Liz forever united.

You are paddling out to that island that I already know about, and I am not paddling to that island. I've seen dreamers go buck wild n' crazy with everything Max/Liz. Skewing the story eliminate everything that might disrupt Max and Liz. I know that point of view already.

Debating back and forth about things, again, works well when people are pretty much in "synch". When you are cutting through the waters with ease and grace, that is fun. This discussion is not cutting through the waters with ease and grace, so to me, it is different than slow and boring but not quite fun and groovy. Hah, I said groovy.

s1r-"There IS the question...as to how much of love really comes down to CHOICE, and how much of it is feeling."

sko- Great comment, because more often than not, people tend to CHOOSE who they want to try to "love" based on reasons other than the true feeling of LOVE.

s1r-"Max can *be with* whoever he wants. The degree to which it can be forced, to anything beyond that, is hard to know. Anyway, you can't fault a dreamer being "wrapped up" in Max and Liz...they're *awesome*! ;) And if you remember, Skovde, I actually AGREED with you...that the sex scene had to be true to their entire relationship."

sko- But you still want it in the DVD, regardless of how it was portrayed, right?

s1r-"My theory is that Max should say/do whatever he determines to be best...without any doubt that it's his decision. The Antarians *can't* tell them what their choice should be, it's not their right."

sko- The Antahrians could only try to prevent him from leaving the pod chamber, and yet he somehow managed to leave. Once he breaks free from the chamber, he is on his own, he becomes a different person, especailly after each passing year. It is clear to me that this is the case, a Pandora's Box kind of scenario.

See, I still consider Zan's wishes where you don't. I still think that Zan is a viable part of Max and you don't. I can't say that Zan doesn't exist any more, while you can. There is no Zan/Max/Liz for you, it's just Max/Liz...and Zan has faded with the past.

s1r-"And that needs to be *very clear* with everyone. Whether or not the new life was "brought up in a human family," still does not change the fact that it's part human. The *choice* is always there, regardless of whatever. That doesn't mean I think Antar would never be of importance to them. Of course it would! Part of who they are is their incredible value/power to the Antarians. A lot was done, so that they COULD come back and turn the tables...save the world. Besides, it always matters if people are in bondage, or suffering injustice...and in this case, they have a *specific* connection. But - "importance" does NOT equal "deciding factor."

sko- No, it doesn't equate to the deciding factor, agreed. Again, it comes down to how much weight one wants to give to Zan. How we perceive Zan as a part of Max. I think that Zan's influence exists in Max and I think it affects his decisions.

Such as his decision to open up to the idea of returning to Antahr, to open up to Tess, and his alien past. People ask how could Max and Liz separate, how could they go separate ways, and I think a small part of it has to do with the fact that Zan is a real part of Max and Zan's memories "bleed" through, reminding him of Antahr, or his responsibility to return.

sko said-"If you remove the entire population of a planet, each person is gone...there is still an ocean of sensations that permeate the planet. *THAT is TANGIBLE*."

s1r-""Ocean of sensations"?? Skovde, I have NO idea what you just said...sorry, it's late at night, again ;)...maybe try explaining another way? "

sko- You said something about nothing being tangible, that everything is different based on each person's perception of reality, why you said it, I don't quite know. 8) I don't really know what your point was when you were comparing faith and fact. Tangible and intangible.
Winds blow, rivers flow, plants grow, and no one ever really has to know.
Waves of elctromagnetic energy interact whether or not anyone is around to see it or talk about it...that is tangible.

s1r-"You mean because I'm easily confused, or because you think I'll accuse you of not allowing for other opinions? lol ;) And uhm...what manner *should* it be "presented" in?"

sko- Well, I know whatever I write, you'd probably disagree or something. I just don't know what you are trying to say, and why you said it. I don't have any clue how to answer when I don't know what you are trying to say. What context, anything specific?

s1r- "What is freekin jibbers is anthropomorphic?"

sko-Anthropomorphic, basically, is ascribing human characteristics to everything. Defining "alien/foreign" concepts with a limiting frame of reference-human.

s1r-"Actually, the biggest reason why I say they don't have "souls," as such...is because I don't think the hybrids could have BOTH a human *and* an alien soul. Nor do I think it would be possible to "mesh" the 2. It would have to be "either or," in my mind. And given *that* assumption, it's easier...and preferable...to see them with the human soul. "anthropomorphic"?? Geez, Skovde, I can't even pronounce that! lol ;) If you're gonna insist on using this word, you'll have tell me what the hell it means! lol =) "

Sko- I'm not sure a human clone has a soul. Yes/no I don't know for sure and wouldn't say yes or no. I wouldn't rule it out, I could believe it in the fictional sense of this story. I also wouldn't conclude that aliens don't have souls, as you did. I could believe that the alien essence is, for all intents and purposes, a soul.

"What?!?!? Why?!", you might ask, because I base it on the context of the story. The way I see the story allows me to reach this assumption.

The scene with Clayton is more than enough. What leaves Max's body? His alien essence or his soul? I say his alien essence...why? Because I look at Kivahr when he leaves the guy he is occupying...Kivahr is an alien, and his essence takes off through a wormhole. This essence looks very much like Max's essence. Also, Max's essence enters Clayton's body. Clayton's body had been injected with a lot of different chemicals...gandarium.

The essence was able to be cloned with human DNA because of the gandarium. So how does Max change back to Max, I would say it is his alien essence working with the gandarium. I don't let any bias I have for Max/Liz play a part in reaching this conclusion.

s1r-"Another reason for me to think they have no souls. And I don't care about their lack of respect for human life...it would only make me MORE unhappy with them, not less."

sko- There are a lot of people who have a lack of respect for human life, does that mean they have no soul? Hmm, maybe you're right 8)...

And how do we quantify their lack of respect? If trying to save the life of another human is important, then the idea of donating blood or DNA to save that person is not that disrespectful. The Antahrians only needed a small amount of DNA to make a clone to save someones life. Yeah, I know, this all sounds ridiculous when you think about it-->we need to make a clone of a human to house our leader's essence, will you be so kind to give us a sample of your DNA? And then the idea that the podster/clone/hybrid is a human life is a tough sell.

s1r-"Could you explain this within the context of TEOTW? I'm not sure how to... And I fail to see the justification for so many tears. WHY wouldn't you seek to "prove the point," while creating as little pain as possible?? (If you don't relish it.) You could argue the necessity for SOME tears, at some points. But there comes a place where it is *too much.* What the world will become, without mercy or compassion, is something I hope to never see. And the LACK of those things here is disturbing. =("

sko- The lack of compassion and mercy in "The End of the World"? In what way? The fact that two people who love each other have to break up to try to prevent the end of the world? There are far worse fates than having to break up. One thing about appreciating a story, play, or movie is the ability of the actor/actress to play out a role in a convincing manner. Shiri and J.B were **AWESOME** in this episode. It was *their performance* that was captivating, not the story. Actors/actresses are nominated and given awards for performances like that.


sko said-"I think Zan and Ava were in love, but not the same way that Max loved Liz. Not like he loved Liz."

s1r- "Well, I know what *I* would mean, if I said that...but I'm interested to hear if it's the same for you. Care to elaborate? =)"

sko- no. ha, that would take another page, I think. maybe later.

Reply#16, from Lady Penelope; Skovde and S1R, 7/18/03
You both sound like you should form a debate team. You both present your arguements in a wonderful manner. You are both polite and funny. It's a delight to read your posts and get another insight into the Roswell "story-behind-the-story". Please keep it up. I'm learnign so much more about Roswell than I ever thought possible. It's making me look at the series in a whole new light.
Thank you,
Lady Penelope

ARTICLE ENDS, as of 7/18/03…it continues on in
ARTICLE #2822, from season1rulez; Skovde; #2742 "partIII", 7/15/03
Responding to Reply#15, from Skovde in Article#2767.

"Heading? I was about to head over and post this reply on the front of the list instead of replying here. 8)"

yeah, I thought about moving it up last time. =) But I wasn't completely sure that you wanted to reply anymore, so I decided to leave it a while longer. ;)

"Hey! what about this from article #2787?-["Plus, Skovde went ahead and moved our conversation up...to the current page...so I didn't think to go back to the old thread for a while. ;) Glad to hear that someone agrees with me about "destiny" and the dupes! LOL =D Maybe ya wanna come over to the new thread, and help me persuade Skovde! ;) hehe..."]"

yeah, what about it? ;) You think I actually expected to "persuade" you of something, Skovde?? LOL I think the odds of that ever happening are pretty much "slim to none!" ;) lol

"I've seen dreamers go buck wild n' crazy with everything Max/Liz. Skewing the story eliminate everything that might disrupt Max and Liz. I know that point of view already. Debating back and forth about things, again, works well when people are pretty much in "synch". When you are cutting through the waters with ease and grace, that is fun. This discussion is not cutting through the waters with ease and grace, so to me, it is different than slow and boring but not quite fun and groovy. Hah, I said groovy."

Don't you have to be from the 60's to say groovy? ;) Ok, wait, I don't get it...how would that work?...how can you "debate" with someone you already agree with?! Hmmm...so you, a self-proclaimed dreamer, are telling me that I'm *too focused* on Max/Liz!? There's a something wrong with this picture. ;) Ya know, KK's not the only one who makes people feel like they're engaging in "sultry pleasures." And as for "skewing the story"...understand where I'm coming from, Skovde. The writers of S2 and S3 hated everything that I loved most about Roswell. THEY "skewed" the story, for me!! But, thank goodness...Roswell has *ample* room for interpretation! =) So, now I get to choose between letting them "skew" Max/Liz (and the rest of a great story)...OR, I can say screw their stupid writing job, and annoying Scifi mess...I'll find something good in here, anyway. ;) lol See, it's not my fault. It's their fault! ;)

"Great comment, because more often than not, people tend to CHOOSE who they want to try to "love" based on reasons other than the true feeling of LOVE."

So, what I wonder -- is this more good than bad? I mean, if you *don't* choose what you feel...if you don't know/control what makes you fall in love...then how can you keep from falling *out* of love, later on? It seems like this conflict makes it difficult for people to make commitments. Obviously! lol I wonder if THIS is the reason why, most of the time, marriage isn't what it's "cracked up to be"?

"But you still want it in the DVD, regardless of how it was portrayed, right?"

No, not REGARDLESS. See, I'm just pretty convinced that it WAS good. =) If I really thought that it sucked, then maybe I *wouldn't* want to watch it.

"I still think that Zan is a viable part of Max and you don't. I can't say that Zan doesn't exist any more, while you can. There is no Zan/Max/Liz for you, it's just Max/Liz...and Zan has faded with the past."

Not so much. I agree that Zan still exists in some form, and is definitely a part of Max. What you mean by "viable," I guess might be the difference?

"You said something about nothing being tangible, that everything is different based on each person's perception of reality, why you said it, I don't quite know. 8) I don't really know what your point was when you were comparing faith and fact. Tangible and intangible. I know whatever I write, you'd probably disagree or something. I just don't know what you are trying to say, and why you said it. I don't have any clue how to answer when I don't know what you are trying to say. What context, anything specific?"

You prefer that I just agree with you, then? Not counter what you say? Ok, so anyways...going back...you mentioned that the belief that humans have souls is a faith-based acceptance. And I said that's true of *everything*, to some degree. Then you wrote, "no, there is difference between saying I have blood flowing inside of me and saying I have a soul inside of me...that is what I am saying. I can show you my blood in a tangible way, I don't know how I can show you my soul in a tangible way. The soul is an abstract, intangible to our 5 basic senses term." And then I was arguing that "tangible" doesn't prove/mean nearly as much as people like to think/say it does. All of THAT lead to my rambling. ;) That's why. I keep trying to figure out a way to explain what I see...but it's not so easy to find the right words, unfortunately. I know I've said it before Skovde, but you're lucky to be able to do that so well! I'm envious... =)

"What in freekin jibbers is anthropomorphic?"

seriously LOL =D

"There are a lot of people who have a lack of respect for human life, does that mean they have no soul? If trying to save the life of another human is important, then the idea of donating blood or DNA to save that person is not that disrespectful. The Antahrians only needed a small amount of DNA to make a clone to save someones life."

no, of course not ;) And, it wasn't the actual cloning that seemed intolerable to me. It's the way the used it. That DNA bore a connection to a human soul (in a fictional sense, for the sake of the sake of story, I mean), and they had no concern for that...it was only a TOOL, for them to use in accomplishing their purposes. (Realistically, I don't see how it's possible for clones to have souls? And whether it's moral, or immoral, to clone humans...or stem cells...I have no idea. I could see how it would be very unwise.)

"The lack of compassion and mercy in "The End of the World"? In what way? The fact that two people who love each other have to break up to try to prevent the end of the world? There are far worse fates than having to break up. One thing about appreciating a story, play, or movie is the ability of the actor/actress to play out a role in a convincing manner. Shiri and J.B were **AWESOME** in this episode. It was *their performance* that was captivating, not the story. Actors/actresses are nominated and given awards for performances like that."

The writers sat down, and tired to create the most gut-wrenching plot they could possibly imagine. They wrote a story of slow "long-term" torture, torment, and agony for innocent kids...at a very young age, and extremely vulnerable point in their lives. They hit them in a way that would hurt like nothing else could. They created very nasty, life-changing/permanent scars. They destroyed good things. That's a very ugly kind of cruelty. Could it be more OPPOSITE of mercy or compassion?! No, I do NOT mean that the writers broke some "moral code" or whatever. I mean that I hate when people do this, it's mean! "Gruesome," for sure. Yeah, obviously it's only a *story*...but still, WHY do people want to write things like that?? (Other than the fact that they like to "see" suffering, and can't find enough of it in the real world to satisfy them.) Yeah, Jason and Shiri were/are awesome! And if they hadn't been SO good, I might actually be able to WATCH that ep! ;) lol Anyway, if this sort of thing happened for real, I wouldn't deem it a mere "break-up"...more like a "crime" against everything good/right.

"no. ha, that would take another page, I think. maybe later."

lol ok then...;)

Reply#1, from roscraze; This has been one of the, 7/15/03
longest, and best, discussions on this BBoard so far! I am amazed that you can continue to follow each others trains of thought; I confess I lost it a few times, myself!

Have to put in my "2 cents" regarding the whole clone/soul issue. Hope you don't mind...

My belief in the soul of a living being (human, alien, whatever) comes from the Bible; this may or may not be what your idea of soul is based upon. However, that is the basis for mine.

As such, I believe every being who has the gift of "choice", (which animals, plants, etc. do not have)has a soul. The Bible talks about God breathing the breath of life into Adam, and he became "a living soul". I believe our soul is the foundation for, and an intricate part of, who we are.

Whether Max (or any of the hybrids) was created by a combination of Zan's alien essence and human DNA would not preclude Max of having his own soul, particular to himself as Max. I don't believe that Zan's soul transferred, in part or as a whole, to Max. I believe that Max is Max, a combination of alien and human, but he is still a new, unique being: Max.

A clone is made of the DNA of one individual. Yet, that clone is still unique to his/herself, a separate person, body, entity, from the person who's DNA was used to create him/her. That clone is a "new life". Yes, made up of the original person's traits, genes and characteristics, but yet still capable of his/her own choices, decisions, and beliefs, based on his/her own personal experiences, which are all new as he/she lives out his/her own life.

I firmly believe that God makes all of life, and so has made every "being" that exists. The ones we know about, and the ones we "dream" about. I believe each being created by God, those who have a will and a choice, have a soul. This soul is eternal, and though it is intricately woven with the life of that being, it exists and continues when that being dies.

I believe that soul lives on, and that where it lives is determined by its relationship, or lack of one, with God.

As such, I believe within that context, that even Nasedo and Cal have/had souls. If they were created as robots, without choice or will, then as a "machine" they would not have had a soul; as stoves, refrigerators or vacuum cleaners do not have a soul. Both Cal and Nasedo exhibited free will and made choices, thus they would be within the parimeters of a being who has a soul. They are then as capable of making evil choices as they were of making good ones.

We could go off on a whole tangent as far as discussing my premise of a soul based on my belief in the Bible. It would be long, and interesting, but would not really suit the purpose of your original discussion about a fictional story and fictional characters. So, we have to sort of confine ourselves to the narrower aspect of my definitions and where they derive from, for the purpose of brievity and application to a fictional theme and the intent of the writers and our interpretation of them (or preferred dismisal, as the case might be!).

Whacky as it may sound, but I again pretty much agree with both of you, though to you it seems as if you are paddling in different directions.

I think you both agree that Max was created to be a combination of Zan's alien essence and human DNA (which had its own essence, I might add). Yet, Max was not either of those, but was "born" as his own person, his own soul, if you will. He is actually a "clone" of alien and human DNA, in a matter of speaking. Yet, as a living soul, he automatically inheirits a will, and the freedom to choose.

IF Max had indeed been raised as was intended, as Skovde points out, his choices would naturally have been very different, as were Tess's. Removing all contact and meaningful interaction with humans would have inspired a very different person than the Max we know in the series. He would definitely have been more like Tess, with his main focus being entirely on Antar and his return there to conquer and reaquire his throne. Being raised by aliens would have focused entirely upon reviving his alien memories and capitalizing upon them, as well as teaching him to learn and become expert in using his powers.

But, Max was raised by humans, and experienced the fullest of human life and interaction. As such, it was his human feelings, intelligence, and instincts that were focused upon and brought to strength. Any hint of alien powers or abilities were squashed, and only used secretly with great care, because he wanted and needed to be human, and blend in with his human life. Max had no one to explain to him those vague memories and skills that came to him; so he ignored and repressed them. Though he always claimed that he "wanted to know" in actuality he did very little to discover things about his alien side.

So, we have Max as a whole new being, a new soul. Roswell is the story of how that person, along with Isabel and Michael, work out their lives and choices; it is a story of human/alien essences merged and discovering himself/herself in one body, one person, one being.

As far as the soulmate issue, I am also inclined to agree with certain aspects of both of your beliefs. I cannot come to terms with a person having only one intended soulmate, and being "empty" if they never chance to meet this person in the course of their lives. I do not believe in the "one person for one person" theory, that we are never complete unless we are fortunate enough to find that "one special person" created just for us, and we for them.

Yet, I do believe in Max and Liz being soulmates. But I think that was a potential that was there for them, a potential that did not have to happen, but rather a potential that was realized by their choices. Yes, there was an attraction, a mysterious link and a pull towards each other, although the evidence of this was about 99% Max's desire and maybe 1% Liz's for most of their young lives. It almost seems as though who they were made a kind of "preset" condition whereby their joining indeed would create one soul out of two.

I accept that Max and Liz are soulmates in the context of this story; I believe that who each of them are, mind, body, soul, heart, is the ultimate match and compliment for who the other person is.

However, they can still choose to be together or not to be together. Their overwhelming emotions for each other are not the only factor to consider. And I think that is basically what both of you are saying.

Skovde insists that Max's choices would have been, maybe even should be, different because of his alien essence; that Max's choices were changed due to the change in the venue in which he was raised after he came out of his pod.

s1r insists that Max's choices are not predetermined by his alien essence, or by the persons who created him as a hybrid. s1r believes that Max is his own person, and should follow his own course, basing his choices upon who he is now and not what the sum of his parts once were.

I believe in the combination of both of these concepts: that Max was created from alien essence and human DNA, but yet is still his own unique person. He may have been mixed with certain factors, but that mix blended to become a new creation, a new being, an entirely new person.

Just as each of us, though made up of and created by a combination of the DNA/genes of both sides of our parent's and their ancestors, we are born our own unique individual, a new creation based upon the old.

Past, present, and future, all combine to help us make our choices. Healthy choices come from considering all of these things; unhealthy ones come when we focus too much on one above the others.

Max and Liz, and all the others, make choices in their lives based upon all sorts of factors, both alien and human; for the hybrids, the choices also include memories and events that took place or are now taking place, on a different planet. A planet to which they are tied, and have memories of, due to the alien essences given to them which were derived from four other beings who lived/died on that planet!

None of their choices are predetermined; they can't be, because they are NOT the Royal Four Antarians who died and were brought back to life. In fact, in my viewpoint, NO choices are ever predetermined, because we are born with a free will, and our decisions are forever new, based upon all sorts of factors from without us and well as those within us!

So, there is my very long, involved, rambling "2 cents worth" of your discussions. All beings have souls, and are their own unique persons, regardless of where their initial ingredients came from. As living souls, we all have choices, and they are based upon experiences/memories from past, present and future. Who we are may preclude us to find a soulmate with another person who's "essence" matches with ours in such a way as to seemingly "complete" us once we have connected with each other.

Whew! I don't think even I know what I am talking about any more...

Reply#2, from therealshapeshifter; EOTW cruel & unusual or par 4 the course, 7/15/03
Skvode?:
"The lack of compassion and mercy in "The End of the World"? In what way? The fact that two people who love each other have to break up to try to prevent the end of the world? There are far worse fates than having to break up...."

season1rulez:
"...The writers sat down, and tired to create the most gut-wrenching plot they could possibly imagine. They wrote a story of slow "long-term" torture, torment, and agony for innocent kids...at a very young age, and extremely vulnerable point in their lives. They hit them in a way that would hurt like nothing else could. They created very nasty, life-changing/permanent scars."

shapeshifter:
What's lacking in compassion and mercy is the writers deciding that the healing and forgiveness each would have to explore would happen for the most part off-screen between S2 & S3. This is very unkind and demanding of the audience.

Reply#3, from Skovde; Groovy train., 7/15/03
s1r-"Don't you have to be from the 60's to say groovy? ;)"

sko- Austin Powers? Dee-Lite? Phil Collins? Sesame Street? Oh wait, that's Grover, right? Not Groover. Whateva, it's all groovy, like totally tubular, fer sure.

S1r-"Ok, wait, I don't get it...how would that work?...how can you "debate" with someone you already agree with?!"

Sko- That's easy, and that's a bit more fun. You know you both want to get to the same island and yet, you can still be open for debate. You don't end up hitting each other with oars, you just kinda caress each other with oars...but there's always room for, um, paddling too. LOL.

S1r-"Hmmm...so you, a self-proclaimed dreamer, are telling me that I'm *too focused* on Max/Liz!? There's a something wrong with this picture. ;)"

Sko- No there isn't. I don't doubt Max and Liz. Hey throw everything and the kitchen sink at them for all I care...cuz I have faith in them! Dag nabbit! I know that Max will pick Liz up off the canvas or Liz will pick Max up off the canvas! And then they'll say,
"Is that all you got 'm' and well you know, 'f'" LOL

"And with our love through tears and thorns
We will endure as we pass surely
Through every storm
A time for us someday there'll be
A new world, a world of shining hope
For you and me"

If they get KO'd in round 1, I'm not throwing in the towel for them, I telling them to get up.

S1r-"The writers of S2 and S3 hated everything that I loved most about Roswell. THEY "skewed" the story, for me!! But, thank goodness...Roswell has *ample* room for interpretation! =) So, now I get to choose between letting them "skew" Max/Liz (and the rest of a great story)...OR, I can say screw their stupid writing job, and annoying Scifi mess...I'll find something good in here, anyway. ;) lol See, it's not my fault. It's their fault! ;)"

Sko- What we all agree more or less, I think, is that Roswell is like a giant puzzle with missing pieces. Of course fans have different aspects of the puzzle that they find more appealing. Now we find ourselves addressing the missing pieces of the puzzle. How do we try to put together a "neater" or "clearer" picture of the story. I see a gap between piece "A" and piece "B". What I don't want to do is try to get those two pieces to fit by altering or changing the shape of those two pieces. I want to try to interpolate the image of the missing piece by comparing it to the rest of the puzzle. I don't want to chop a portion of a piece of the puzzle to make it fit.

I think the Kyle's baby issue clearly allows for the viewer to perceive that Kyle might actually be the father of the baby. That's a piece of the puzzle we both feel comfortable placing into the whole picture. Now the Tess mind-warp issue is an example of where we differ...going back to that kiss scene.

s1r- "So, what I wonder -- is this more good than bad? I mean, if you *don't* choose what you feel...if you don't know/control what makes you fall in love...then how can you keep from falling *out* of love, later on? It seems like this conflict makes it difficult for people to make commitments. Obviously! lol I wonder if THIS is the reason why, most of the time, marriage isn't what it's "cracked up to be"?

Sko- There are concepts that have been diluted by culture. The term Love is a victim of culture, tradition, expectation...the meaning of the word has been diluted. And "Nielsons" forbid if the concept is ever portrayed in an incredible way on television.

No, they want to peddle quick and meaningless folly in terms of relationships. Love has become a reality show, a freekin game show. But then, that isn't at all what I would equate with love.

I think Max and Liz found true love. What would keep them from falling out of love? Are you trying to bring the soul-mate issue into this...like in a spiritual way, Max and Liz are just extensions of the same spirit brought together in separate forms? Being separate to them would be like chopping of your arm? It just wouldn't make sense to do it so why would they consider it? Just thinking out loud.

sko said-"But you still want it in the DVD, regardless of how it was portrayed, right?"

s1r- "No, not REGARDLESS. See, I'm just pretty convinced that it WAS good. =) If I really thought that it sucked, then maybe I *wouldn't* want to watch it."

Sko- you know, I bet it was incredibly good, in the normal sense of the term. But then I have this out there standard that sort of requires Max to literally send "sparks" flying and coursing...um...throughout...the scene, and all that, stuff...fireworks, sparklers... etc. LOL

S1r-"Not so much. I agree that Zan still exists in some form, and is definitely a part of Max. What you mean by "viable," I guess might be the difference?"

sko- Viable, means that I value his presence. It might not have been nurtured, Max may have tried to keep it buried. I think Max could, and did, open the door to let Zan out...he wanted to embrace it and I think that whole process was as difficult as puberty could be and more, just like imagine that it is his time of the month and more. I think it might have been just as difficult a process as anything we are familiar with.

s1r-"You prefer that I just agree with you, then? Not counter what you say?

Sko- No, not at all. Either you agree or you don't or a little of both. It is apparent that you have dealt with a lot of single minded people who claim to have the authority to demand things. It shows in your reactions, at times.

S1r- Ok, so anyways...going back...you mentioned that the belief that humans have souls is a faith-based acceptance. And I said that's true of *everything*, to some degree.

Sko- That's what I thought. I still don't know why it produced that remark. I can travel to a completely native culture, say in the Amazon, and I can communicate the notion that I have blood flowing inside of me. I can prick myself and show them my blood. I can prick them and show them their blood...we can put them side by side and can compare them. We can come to a common sense of what blood is because we both can see it and touch it...we ascribe the word "blood" to represent that red liquid. I would have a much more difficult time trying to describe the term, soul, to a native culture.

Now souls/essences. You balk at stepping up to the plate to address the Clayton/Kivahr essence issue. When Max leaves his body when he is healing Clayton, I see an alien essence. Max's body ages rapidly and turns to ash. And then Clayton dies and Clayton's soul passes on...why doesn't Max's soul pass on too?

This is a major reason why I maintain some of the opinions I have, about Zan, about alien souls...I get, understand your opinion about a human clone bearing a human soul, but to me it changes with Clayton. No longer can I say that Max has a completely and absolutely human soul. It shifts to the "essence as soul" idea.

S1r-"And then I was arguing that "tangible" doesn't prove/mean nearly as much as people like to think/say it does"

Sko- See, I just don't know what you think I am professing. I am not at all talking about any religion. To me a soul is not as tangible as blood, flesh and bone. It is an abstract, hard to define term. Blood is not an abstract hard to define term.

s1r-"no, of course not ;) And, it wasn't the actual cloning that seemed intolerable to me. It's the way the used it. That DNA bore a connection to a human soul"

sko- I would say that Zan's essence is the major "SOUL" of the clone. Does a soul emerge from a sequence of DNA or does a soul get injected or attached or "pop in" to the DNA construct? Where and when does a soul emerge? How?

The idea that a highly advanced alien species could imbue a developing hybrid with a soul, Zan's essence, is not that difficult for me to consider.

S1r- "(in a fictional sense, for the sake of the sake of story, I mean), and they had no concern for that...it was only a TOOL, for them to use in accomplishing their purposes."

Sko- Zan's purposes too. And they did have a concern for it...just not in the "Here you go little hybrid boy, now you can grow up with Mom and Pop Evans in Roswell" sense. 8)

s1r-"The writers sat down, and tired to create the most gut-wrenching plot they could possibly imagine. They wrote a story of slow "long-term" torture, torment, and agony for innocent kids...at a very young age, and extremely vulnerable point in their lives. They hit them in a way that would hurt like nothing else could. They created very nasty, life-changing/permanent scars. They destroyed good things. That's a very ugly kind of cruelty. Could it be more OPPOSITE of mercy or compassion?! No, I do NOT mean that the writers broke some "moral code" or whatever. I mean that I hate when people do this, it's mean! "Gruesome," for sure. Yeah, obviously it's only a *story*...but still, WHY do people want to write things like that?? (Other than the fact that they like to "see" suffering, and can't find enough of it in the real world to satisfy them.) Yeah, Jason and Shiri were/are awesome! And if they hadn't been SO good, I might actually be able to WATCH that ep! ;) lol Anyway, if this sort of thing happened for real, I wouldn't deem it a mere "break-up"...more like a "crime" against everything good/right."

Sko- like we've discussed, I see expressions of doubt emerging between Max and Liz. I've also mentioned why I would understand their doubts. I, on the other hand, had no doubts about them no matter where the story headed. They are soul-mates, like no other. I definitely see and understand why there is this reaction, you see complete and utter cruelty. I have a greater tolerance I guess. Yeah, I absolutely agree that they had to face some very difficult circumstances. Very traumatic stuff...
And ***SHAPESHIFTER***, get your attention???
...she is 100% on the button...
they needed to KISS AND MAKE UP!!! RECONCILE THIS MAJOR ISSUE! PLEASE GIVE AS AN ENTIRE EPISODE OF SENSUAL HEALING PART II...but no, instead they give us this bull snot Dock scene that glosses over the whole ordeal!?!?

"no. ha, that would take another page, I think. maybe later."

lol ok then...;)

Well, now roscraze and shapeshifter are here, so I might forget about that other answer for now. I have to go back a look at what was going on then.

Reply#4, from Skovde…not necessary to post, contains a portion of reply#3

Reply#5, from Skovde; Roscraze, that was one easy wave, 7/15/03
to ride into shore. Even though you might have been a bit dizzy at the end, there. lol. And no, I don't agree completely with everything you bring up...but that is the case with abstract ideas.

rcraze-"the longest, and best, discussions on this BBoard so far! I am amazed that you can continue to follow each others trains of thought; I confess I lost it a few times, myself!"

sko- wow, thanks, though how did you manage to keep up without getting whacked in the head by an errant oar? lol.

rcraze-"If they were created as robots, without choice or will, then as a "machine" they would not have had a soul; as stoves, refrigerators or vacuum cleaners do not have a soul. Both Cal and Nasedo exhibited free will and made choices, thus they would be within the parimeters of a being who has a soul. They are then as capable of making evil choices as they were of making good ones."

sko- The thing is, they were a product of a civilization that was very advanced. Nasedo as an artificially intelligent creation programmed to protect? A robot that looks and acts like a creature? Or Nasedo as a kind of guard dog, trained to protect?

rcraze-"We could go off on a whole tangent as far as discussing my premise of a soul based on my belief in the Bible. It would be long, and interesting, but would not really suit the purpose of your original discussion about a fictional story and fictional characters. So, we have to sort of confine ourselves to the narrower aspect of my definitions and where they derive from, for the purpose of brievity and application to a fictional theme and the intent of the writers and our interpretation of them (or preferred dismisal, as the case might be!)."

sko- bingo! nicely composed...don't want to tackle this issue here, but it sure helps to understand the background.

rcraze- "Whacky as it may sound, but I again pretty much agree with both of you, though to you it seems as if you are paddling in different directions."

sko- whack! whack! the sound of paddles smacking as they are going in opposite directions? 8)

rc-"IF Max had indeed been raised as was intended, as Skovde points out, his choices would naturally have been very different, as were Tess's. Removing all contact and meaningful interaction with humans would have inspired a very different person than the Max we know in the series. He would definitely have been more like Tess, with his main focus being entirely on Antar and his return there to conquer and reaquire his throne. Being raised by aliens would have focused entirely upon reviving his alien memories and capitalizing upon them, as well as teaching him to learn and become expert in using his powers."

sko- mhmm, nice.

rc-"But, Max was raised by humans, and experienced the fullest of human life and interaction. As such, it was his human feelings, intelligence, and instincts that were focused upon and brought to strength. Any hint of alien powers or abilities were squashed, and only used secretly with great care, because he wanted and needed to be human, and blend in with his human life. Max had no one to explain to him those vague memories and skills that came to him; so he ignored and repressed them. Though he always claimed that he "wanted to know" in actuality he did very little to discover things about his alien side."

sko- nodding my head. 8)

rc-"So, we have Max as a whole new being, a new soul. Roswell is the story of how that person, along with Isabel and Michael, work out their lives and choices; it is a story of human/alien essences merged and discovering himself/herself in one body, one person, one being."

sko- Ok, it sounds good. I'm beginning to sound repetitive. perhaps I'm a little tired. Lots of words in these articles here. 8)

rc-"None of their choices are predetermined; they can't be, because they are NOT the Royal Four Antarians who died and were brought back to life. In fact, in my viewpoint, NO choices are ever predetermined, because we are born with a free will, and our decisions are forever new, based upon all sorts of factors from without us and well as those within us!"

sko- Choices can be predetermined in that the Antahrians, or human parents set up preventions to avoid unwanted circumstance...but as is the case with the podsters, the unwanted did happen...they left the pod chamber. Why? How did that happen? Was it luck? Did someone intervene??? Hmm...[scratches head]

rc-"Whew! I don't think even I know what I am talking about any more..."

sko - Grab an oar and give yourself a whack 8)

Reply#6, from season1rulez; roscraze, skovde, SS…, 7/16/03
LOL...I come to check if Skovde's said anything yet...and blink upon seeing *5 replies*, in one day!?

rcz- "this has been one of the longest, and best, discussions on this BBoard so far! I am amazed that you can continue to follow each others trains of thought; I confess I lost it a few times, myself! Have to put in my "2 cents" regarding the whole clone/soul issue. Hope you don't mind..."

Not at all =) Actually, I've been curious to know if anyone else has been reading this thread...and if so, what they were thinking! Glad you're liking it, and that you joined in! =)

rcz- "...for the purpose of brievity and application to a fictional theme and the intent of the writers and our interpretation of them (or preferred dismisal, as the case might be!)."

Yes! I definitely exercise my right of "preferred dismissal" of the errant writers!! ;) lol And the application to a fictional theme is an interesting "work around," to me...considering that I could, hypothetically, break all the "rules" (or beliefs) that I have for reality. I always wonder which ones to "keep," and which to "toss"?

rcz- "Whacky as it may sound, but I again pretty much agree with both of you, though to you it seems as if you are paddling in different directions."

That IS hard to decide, isn't it? lol =D

rcz- "IF Max had indeed been raised as was intended, as Skovde points out, his choices would naturally have been very different, as were Tess's. Removing all contact and meaningful interaction with humans would have inspired a very different person than the Max we know in the series. He would definitely have been more like Tess, with his main focus being entirely on Antar and his return there to conquer and reaquire his throne."

Both you and Skovde have emphasized the different people they would've become, had they not been raised by humans...and you have *also* made clear that you agree with the "free will" attribute of the 4. To what extent are we a "product of our environment"? No one can deny that what we live with, and are taught by those around us, has tremendous effects on our thinking...and how we develop as individuals. But, I can not get past the issue of "responsibility" for one's own actions. And of course, I'm VERY adamant about free will. As Liz said (along with lots of others), "you are who you choose to be." I'm not sure if greater words were EVER spoken. That statement holds *so much* truth...in a very deep, and complete sense...which I think is TOTALLY lost on most people. =( My attention is drawn to drawn to that side of their development. Rather than focusing on their "environment," I would focus on their choice, and ability...to overcome *whatever* influences may surround them, IF it's truly their will to do so.

rcz- "Whew! I don't think even I know what I am talking about any more..."

lol ;) this happens to me all the time...who says thinking can't make you break a sweat? =D


"S-K-O-V-D-E" ;) I knew you must get tired of that sometimes. LOL Maybe it's partly cuz no one knows how to SAY it? When they see "skovde"...they just see a bunch of letters that don't appear to go together. So when they try to *remember* those letters, you get "skvode, and scvode, skodve," and...well, just about everything. LOL ;) Maybe you should post one of the phonetic pronunciation keys, for us. =D I bet if people could "hear" it, in their heads...they'd have a MUCH easier time trying to remember which letters/what order! =)

sko-"That's easy, and that's a bit more fun. You know you both want to get to the same island and yet, you can still be open for debate. You don't end up hitting each other with oars, you just kinda caress each other with oars...but there's always room for, um, paddling too."

Hmmm..."never choose the path of least resistance." ;) Anyway, I *still* don't get this concept of an island?? Obviously, you think we should have some SPECIFIC goal (destination), here. I just don't understand what, or why? Btw, you can't "caress" someone with wood! It would hurt, and be followed by painful removal of numerous splinters!! And I've been hit with an oar, and can tell you only thing here that *compared* to that, was maybe when you informed me that I was narrow minded! ;) lol When did I hit you with an oar??

sko-"I don't doubt Max and Liz. Hey throw everything and the kitchen sink at them for all I care...cuz I have faith in them! Dag nabbit! I know that Max will pick Liz up off the canvas or Liz will pick Max up off the canvas!"

Then why did you say that Max could've fallen in love with Tess? And why do you talk about his feelings for her, as if they are "real" enough to be a "contender"? (Zan's memories within him, kiss in the rain, etc, etc, etc) You seem to place SO MUCH importance/emphasis on Zan's will, and what the Antarians claim Max was "supposed" to do - and yet, if he actually DID that, he could never be with Liz!! If you assume Max = Zan, and Tess = Ava, and Zan loved Ava...then the properties of algebra say I'm not doing the math wrong, when I conclude that you have a very "interesting" definition of the term dreamer.

sko-"There are concepts that have been diluted by culture. The term Love is a victim of culture, tradition, expectation...the meaning of the word has been diluted. And "Nielsons" forbid if the concept is ever portrayed in an incredible way on television."

Wow. Good point. I agree with that, and easily could write novels on the subject...about how it's tragically destroying the world in an awful way. But was it ever really "less diluted"? I mean, when I look at history, it seems that people (in certain ways, for sure) have come to a better understanding of "love," as time has gone on. Just like how society has become more humane and decent, in a lot of ways, as civilization has progressed. Obviously, you can argue the "other side" of the coin, as well. ;)

sko-"Love has become a reality show, a freekin game show. But then, that isn't at all what I would equate with love."

No kidding. I would hope that no one does! Although, I'm not so sure it's "love" they have in mind...more like "slight compatibility with mega sexual attraction." People have totally different views of how seriously the subject of love/relationships should be taken. Very much like they do the physical side. So many people think of it as just a form of "amusement/enjoyment," and nothing more. I don't think I could I even count how many times they've said, "It's just sex. What's the big deal?"

"Are you trying to bring the soul-mate issue into this...like in a spiritual way, Max and Liz are just extensions of the same spirit brought together in separate forms? Being separate to them would be like chopping of your arm? It just wouldn't make sense to do it so why would they consider it? Just thinking out loud."

Actually, no -- I wasn't. I was really asking a question...to which I don't know the answer. (totally against the rules of the game, I know! ;) I ask myself that, though, sometimes. And I was just curious, to see what answers people might give. =) "Extensions of the same spirit brought together in separate forms"?! WOAH there! *jumps back* This is getting WAAAY too weird for me!! You really *are* a hippie, aren't you? ;) lol

sko-"you know, I bet it was incredibly good, in the normal sense of the term. But then I have this out there standard that sort of requires Max to literally send "sparks" flying and coursing...um...throughout...the scene."

Better watch out Skovde, you're asking to get edited again. LOL =D *This* is why, originally, I got to thinking that you didn't even want them to ATTEMPT it.

sko-"It is apparent that you have dealt with a lot of single minded people who claim to have the authority to demand things. It shows in your reactions, at times."

Ahem...yeah. So, help me out here? I don't wanna do that to people. I have no desire to go around with a "chip on my shoulder," taking out what I lived with on innocent "passerby." I want to know...where did I "react" to you, when I wasn't really reacting to you?

sko-"That's what I thought. I still don't know why it produced that remark. We can come to a common sense of what blood is because we both can see it and touch it...we ascribe the word "blood" to represent that red liquid. I would have a much more difficult time trying to describe the term, soul, to a native culture. I am not at all talking about any religion. To me a soul is not as tangible as blood, flesh and bone. It is an abstract, hard to define term. Blood is not an abstract hard to define term."

Basically, if you limit what's REAL to what's "tangible"...if you define "evidence" as what can be proven/shown via the 5 senses...then you're going to fail in your "investigation." *I* think. What's real can NOT always be shown, or determined, by what is tangible/physical. Some would even say that the things you *can't* recognize with your 5 senses, are MORE "real" than those you can. I was just acknowledging these types of ideas. Do you call that "religion"? I guess you could, if you believe that *everyone* is religious, in that sense. People who think all that matters is the tangible, are very blind, IMO. Foolish really. I would say that they "keep their mind in a box." =(

sko-"Now souls/essences. You balk at stepping up to the plate to address the Clayton/Kivahr essence issue. When Max leaves his body when he is healing Clayton, I see an alien essence. Max's body ages rapidly and turns to ash. And then Clayton dies and Clayton's soul passes on...why doesn't Max's soul pass on too?"

Me? Balk at stepping up to the plate?! Skovde, I think you're baiting me. lol I guess it worked, huh? ;) Sigh...ok, you know how I hate Scifi? Particularly the really "complicated/strange" crap? *THIS* is a *PERFECT* case in point. =( It's so *completely* devoid of anything reasonable, logical, sensible, or believable...and it absolutely fails to interest me...*in the least.* Like the Wizard of Oz. Nap time. ;) Seriously, I will fall asleep! I remember watching the eps with Clayton, and thinking -- "OMG. =( It's never been this bad, before! What has Roswell come to!? Am I even gonna *make it* to the end of S3? Will I actually be able to KEEP "watching" this show, while remaining *awake*??" I mean really, I'm physically unable to make my thoughts focus on this kind of "bologna"...I DID manage to *sit there*, and *look* at the TV...but you couldn't really say I was "watching" the show. My thoughts were probably going something like, "Hmmm...wonder if I want pizza, or chicken for dinner? You know...this window is getting really dirty and smudged...maybe I should clean it. I wonder if I have any Windex? Maybe I should buy some later, after I go to McDonalds. Or Pizza Hut? Actually, maybe I should just call it in...etc, etc" ;) LOL See what I'm saying?

I equate "Max's" body with JB's. And I don't think Clayton's soul "passed on" until Max's body died (when he fell out the window.) I think BOTH their "souls" were in the same body, simultaneously. Yes, it's absolutely impossible...but that's what we're dealing with...Scifi *insanity*. Did I mention that I don't really like to deal with it?? If this is why you think Max has Zan's soul, then all is lost, because I will NEVER be able to read through paragraphs analyzing the "Clayton/Max queerness." Way too stupid, IMO. And totally NOT capable of holding my attention. lol ;) Geez, I get bored just thinking about it *this* long.

sko-"I would say that Zan's essence is the major "SOUL" of the clone. Does a soul emerge from a sequence of DNA or does a soul get injected or attached or "pop in" to the DNA construct? Where and when does a soul emerge? How? The idea that a highly advanced alien species could imbue a developing hybrid with a soul, Zan's essence, is not that difficult for me to consider."

The soul isn't "physically in" the DNA, I don't think. It doesn't inject, or mesh with, or "pop in"...it's just connected...spiritually, not physically. Uhm, when you say "emerge," are you talking about "origin" again? And as for that last part -- *too much* Scifi!

sko-"I definitely see and understand why there is this reaction, you see complete and utter cruelty. I have a greater tolerance I guess."

Tolerance for cruelty? Why??

sko-"they needed to KISS AND MAKE UP!!! RECONCILE THIS MAJOR ISSUE! PLEASE GIVE AS AN ENTIRE EPISODE OF SENSUAL HEALING PART II"

They didn't have time to. They were too busy making MORE messy Scifi.

sko-"now roscraze and shapeshifter are here, so I might forget about that other answer for now. I have to go back a look at what was going on then."

Well, it might give us something to agree on. ;) Or, it might get very interesting...lol ;)

SS- "What's lacking in compassion and mercy is the writers deciding that the healing and forgiveness each would have to explore would happen for the most part off-screen between S2 & S3. This is very unkind and demanding of the audience."

No kidding. =( VERY demanding!

Reply#7, from Skovde; Hippity Doo Dah. Yuppity Yay, 7/16/03
s1r- "S-K-O-V-D-E" ;) I knew you must get tired of that sometimes. LOL Maybe it's partly cuz no one knows how to SAY it? When they see "skovde"...they just see a bunch of letters that don't appear to go together. So when they try to *remember* those letters, you get "skvode, and scvode, skodve," and...well, just about everything. LOL ;) Maybe you should post one of the phonetic pronunciation keys, for us. =D I bet if people could "hear" it, in their heads...they'd have a MUCH easier time trying to remember which letters/what order! =)"

Sko- SKOV-DE like NOV-DUH (NOV as in November), but that is not even close to the proper pronunciation of Skövde.
I borrowed a .wav from a link-
www.his.se/ibv/isjr/skovde.htm--the file is 200+kb, use the link below.
the guy says it one way [there is a different way] in this .wav.

http://members.aol.com/tjasminoides/skovde.wav

S1r-"Hmmm..."never choose the path of least resistance." ;)"

Sko- What...What.. Whaaat?! Yet you are asking Max and Liz to go down the path of least resistance? Or just not the path of MOST resistance? 8)

S1r- "Anyway, I *still* don't get this concept of an island?? Obviously, you think we should have some SPECIFIC goal (destination), here. I just don't understand what, or why?"

Sko- OK, let's explore this "island". If I am going to go on an expedition of "Roswell Island" there are many roads to travel. I wouldn't necessarily choose a Michael/Maria Candy fan to travel with me if I desired to reach the top of the island's most gorgeous peak.

There might be a lot of interesting debate and discussion with a 'candy-fan', there are paths that can be traveled with a candy, but ultimately we'd want to go separate directions because we enjoy different peaks, a different panoramic view...it is best appreciated with someone who is very compatible with your own point of view.

Plus, nothing is preventing such a compatible pair from posing other points of view...but it doesn't tend to get really nasty because the pair already is "in synch". No, not the band. 8)

Candies and Dreamers most likely would get into a scuffle and devil's advocacy rather than an earnest discussion to try to reach the same peak. I don't really want to let a discussion devolve into that kind of brouhaha.

Now I want to bring, what you label Sci-Fi, into the mix. I bring up Clayton and Kivahr because that is interesting to me, it isn't that much of a stretch for me to consider those issues. That represents a huge chunk of our discussion and you will have no part of it, you don't want to go there, you don't want "to paddle to that Sci-Fi island"...and that is where I am paddling, at times, to some degree. We aren't paddling in the same direction.

It is how we are trying to piece together the puzzle, and the picture that we ultimately see. I want to sit with someone who shares the same or similar ideas and notions of how to put that puzzle back together.

Puzzle pieces "A" and "C" are there, it's a matter of how we decide to put puzzle piece "B" into the picture. I want to piece together a puzzle with someone who follows the same set of criteria. I wouldn't want to see someone start chopping up some of the pieces in order to make them fit a certain way. I want to work with what is already there to try to make the most sense of what has happened. And I already know that you are going to chop up pieces like crazy to make them fit, and I don't want to do that.

I think Yellow Finch has answered many questions with a similar approach as they way I would look at things. But even still, I do want to make things fit well for Max and Liz, such as the Kyle's baby scene. I will try to piece the puzzle back together in a manner that does make the overall picture of Max and Liz appear a little brighter.

S1r-"Btw, you can't "caress" someone with wood! It would hurt, and be followed by painful removal of numerous splinters!! And I've been hit with an oar, and can tell you only thing here that *compared* to that, was maybe when you informed me that I was narrow minded! ;) lol When did I hit you with an oar??"

Sko- Implying that I am sadistic and cruel for appreciating "The End of The World", or the story line of season 2 and 3. A sadist, being someone who derives pleasure from watching people suffer...which is not the case with me. And who said the oars were made of wood...and splinters? These would be made of Styrofoam or something softer...maybe like big giant strawberry shortcake popsicles. And the splinters, if any, would just melt right out. 8)

S1r-"Then why did you say that Max could've fallen in love with Tess? And why do you talk about his feelings for her, as if they are "real" enough to be a "contender"?

Sko- Tess is not a "contender", but it is the outcome of opening up to his alien past, and she is his wife. I don't mind letting that past into Max and Liz's life. It is a major uppercut that knocks them down. Liz has to go off to Florida for a summer...but I think they can cope with things, I don't doubt that they can't get through all these rough roads. I want to see them get through it, I want to root for them, I want to cheer them on.

And it brings up the idea of sports in general, boxing, wrestling, football, hockey...they can be rough and tough to watch. There are plenty of people who declare them as being brutal and unnecessary. In some ways they might be, but playing them, or watching them is fun, for me. Maybe not each and every event, but in general. It's just part of enjoying "sports" or a "story" and hoping your team or your favorite couple does well, but realizing they might get knocked down more than you'd care to see. You know, maybe the fact that I am a Red Sox fan gives me a greater tolerance for painful situations. 8) I don't know whether to laugh out loud or cry out loud with that statement. LOL
or COL.?

S1r- "(Zan's memories within him, kiss in the rain, etc, etc, etc) You seem to place SO MUCH importance/emphasis on Zan's will, and what the Antarians claim Max was "supposed" to do - and yet, if he actually DID that, he could never be with Liz!! If you assume Max = Zan, and Tess = Ava, and Zan loved Ava...then the properties of algebra say I'm not doing the math wrong, when I conclude that you have a very "interesting" definition of the term dreamer."

Sko- That is why I view the whole Tess/Max separation as a major event that led to season 2 and 3. That is why I see hints of Romeo and Juliet in Max/Tess, or Zan/Ava. It would be easy to assume that Ava was always evil and nasty. It would be easy to label Zan as being a monster. But isn't that "taking the path of least resistance?"

Nothing compares to Max/Liz...but I don't just brush off Zan/Ava as being a mess not worth examining or appreciating. I don't think it is required to dismiss Zan/Ava in order to be a dreamer. Something separated them Max/Tess or Zan/Ava...something wedged itself in between them...was there a purpose, was that an important, crucial event to launch Max/Liz?

S1r-" But was it ever really "less diluted"? I mean, when I look at history, it seems that people (in certain ways, for sure) have come to a better understanding of "love," as time has gone on. Just like how society has become more humane and decent, in a lot of ways, as civilization has progressed. Obviously, you can argue the "other side" of the coin, as well. ;)"

Sko - Less diluted? I think so. But maybe not by much. The media dilutes the term more than anything, it reduces it to a "snap decision" or impulsiveness. Words get butchered by media and marketing. Another example is the word 'shocking'. The only thing that would be shocking any more is if no media outlet ever used the word shocking, it has lost its meaning.

s1r-"People have totally different views of how seriously the subject of love/relationships should be taken. Very much like they do the physical side. So many people think of it as just a form of "amusement/enjoyment," and nothing more. I don't think I could I even count how many times they've said, "It's just sex. What's the big deal?""

Sko- And that's part of the reason why the meaning of the word is lost. People are fed other notions and ideas that try to take the place of the meaning of the word. There is a casual acceptance by many people...the word has taken on a different meaning to many people, a lesser meaning.

S1r-"Actually, no -- I wasn't. I was really asking a question...to which I don't know the answer. (totally against the rules of the game, I know! ;) I ask myself that, though, sometimes. And I was just curious, to see what answers people might give. =) "Extensions of the same spirit brought together in separate forms"?! WOAH there! *jumps back* This is getting WAAAY too weird for me!! You really *are* a hippie, aren't you? ;) lol "

Sko- No I wouldn't say that I am, they were tripping out before my time. I would have more familiarity with yuppies than hippies. And anyway, what's so odd about thinking that, in the spiritual sense, two souls can be connected outside of the body. Put a sock puppet on your right arm and a sock puppet on your left arm, and now bring them together. Now imagine the sock puppets are people and your arms are their spirit/soul. Look, I don't know, I'm just playing make believe without the drugs. 8)

sko said-"you know, I bet it was incredibly good, in the normal sense of the term. But then I have this out there standard that sort of requires Max to literally send "sparks" flying and coursing...um...throughout...the scene."

s1r- "Better watch out Skovde, you're asking to get edited again. LOL =D *This* is why, originally, I got to thinking that you didn't even want them to ATTEMPT it."

Sko- No no no, I don't know what you are thinking. LOL...ok maybe I do, but I don't know what you are thinking, I am thinking. ;)

You remember the scene alongside the road in "Blind Date" the parking meter, the car siren, the disco ball lamplights? Just imagine that Liz is the parking meter, the car siren, the disco lamplights...there is nothing sexually graphic in that, it's just "not normal". Those were actual sparks that shot up in the air, right? And Liz did actually glow a little from a hickey, right? Now just imagine, during their intense and passionate...um, uh...embracing, she becomes alive with glowing sparkling lights, like a disco ball! 8)

sko-said "It is apparent that you have dealt with a lot of single minded people who claim to have the authority to demand things. It shows in your reactions, at times."

s1r-"Ahem...yeah. So, help me out here? I don't wanna do that to people. I have no desire to go around with a "chip on my shoulder," taking out what I lived with on innocent "passerby." I want to know...where did I "react" to you, when I wasn't really reacting to you?"

sko- no, it's more of your intolerance to what you perceive to be that hoity-toity know-it-all kind of presentation. You kinda swing your oars at a person's head and ask questions later.

s1r-"Basically, if you limit what's REAL to what's "tangible"...if you define "evidence" as what can be proven/shown via the 5 senses...then you're going to fail in your "investigation." *I* think. What's real can NOT always be shown, or determined, by what is tangible/physical. Some would even say that the things you *can't* recognize with your 5 senses, are MORE "real" than those you can. I was just acknowledging these types of ideas. Do you call that "religion"? I guess you could, if you believe that *everyone* is religious, in that sense. People who think all that matters is the tangible, are very blind, IMO. Foolish really. I would say that they "keep their mind in a box." =("

sko- That is basically what I was intending. I would have written pretty much the same paragraph there. It is when one starts to try to define abstract terms like souls, we just don't have an easy time of doing it. People might say, bah, souls, you're nuts, there is no such thing. People might describe and define souls very precisely with all sorts of conditions.

You said humans have souls. Doesn't *that* sound pretty close to being "preachy miss know-it-all"? I said how do you know that? Not that I completely disagree, or disagree at all.

That is when you took off trying to explain all sorts of ideas, but that isn't what I was really looking for in a reply. It is inevitable that people will differ when it comes to trying to define or agree on abstract terms like souls. People will have a much easier time agreeing on a term like blood. When I say-"ALL HUMAN BEINGS HAVE BLOOD RUNNING THROUGH THEIR VEINS" not many people will get offended at this conclusion because it is more tangible to everyone.

When you start making declarations about souls, then people might get more easily offended. Someone might think that you are being a hoity-toity know-it-all for telling them they have something they don't understand. I understand you, I am not objecting to your statement about humans having souls.

s1r-"Me? Balk at stepping up to the plate?! Skovde, I think you're baiting me. lol I guess it worked, huh? ;) Sigh...ok, you know how I hate Scifi? Particularly the really "complicated/strange" crap? *THIS* is a *PERFECT* case in point. =( It's so *completely* devoid of anything reasonable, logical, sensible, or believable...and it absolutely fails to interest me...*in the least.* Like the Wizard of Oz. Nap time. ;) Seriously, I will fall asleep! I remember watching the eps with Clayton, and thinking -- "OMG. =( It's never been this bad, before! What has Roswell come to!? Am I even gonna *make it* to the end of S3? Will I actually be able to KEEP "watching" this show, while remaining *awake*??" I mean really, I'm physically unable to make my thoughts focus on this kind of "bologna"...I DID manage to *sit there*, and *look* at the TV...but you couldn't really say I was "watching" the show. My thoughts were probably going something like, "Hmmm...wonder if I want pizza, or chicken for dinner? You know...this window is getting really dirty and smudged...maybe I should clean it. I wonder if I have any Windex? Maybe I should buy some later, after I go to McDonalds. Or Pizza Hut? Actually, maybe I should just call it in...etc, etc" ;) LOL See what I'm saying?

I equate "Max's" body with JB's. And I don't think Clayton's soul "passed on" until Max's body died (when he fell out the window.) I think BOTH their "souls" were in the same body, simultaneously. Yes, it's absolutely impossible...but that's what we're dealing with...Scifi *insanity*. Did I mention that I don't really like to deal with it?? If this is why you think Max has Zan's soul, then all is lost, because I will NEVER be able to read through paragraphs analyzing the "Clayton/Max queerness." Way too stupid, IMO. And totally NOT capable of holding my attention. lol ;) Geez, I get bored just thinking about it *this* long."

Sko- Wow, all those words just end up in one word's lap- BORING. This is another example of why our discussion is not as fun as fun can be, don't you see?

S1r-"The soul isn't "physically in" the DNA, I don't think. It doesn't inject, or mesh with, or "pop in"...it's just connected...spiritually, not physically. Uhm, when you say "emerge," are you talking about "origin" again? And as for that last part -- *too much* Scifi!"

Sko- When does a human soul appear in a human embryo? How does it appear? Is it flown in by angels to be placed within the embryo? Is it something that is established by a certain sequence of DNA? Do cellular functions begin to create a soul? Is this something only God is allowed to know?

It is easy for me to accept that a highly advanced alien species could work with a developing podster to imbue it with the alien essence of Zan and the rest, and that essence becomes the "soul" of that new life.

S1r-"Tolerance for cruelty? Why??"

Sko- Because it is a story. We both see cruelty. Did they really have to kill Alex? No. Did I enjoy the fact that they killed Alex, no. Do I have a threshold for cruelty, yes. I'm not saying that it doesn't come close to that threshold, but my tolerance level must be higher than yours.

Why? Maybe many reasons, experience, perspective. Think of someone that has never been pricked by a needle or pin, and has never seen their own blood. The first time they get pricked by a needle and see blood flowing they might get dizzy, it seems like a very big deal.
"Help, someone, I'm bleeding" If you have been stuck by a pin before, you don't think of it the same way. You might casually brush it off as not being that big a deal. There is that sense of tolerance. Yeah, bleeding is bleeding, cruelty is cruelty. I think your threshold has been more than surpassed, while mine hasn't. Does that make me an evil sadistic person?

S1r-"They didn't have time to. They were too busy making MORE messy Scifi."

Sko- no, Jesse and Isabel and Alex were probably given more emphasis, and the sci-fi may have gotten in the way of things. Searching for Kyle's baby? ;)

sko-"now roscraze and shapeshifter are here, so I might forget about that other answer for now. I have to go back a look at what was going on then."

s1r-"Well, it might give us something to agree on. ;) Or, it might get very interesting...lol ;)"

sko- True, and well, then this could lead to what Shapeshifter was talking about, demanding that the audience reconcile Max and Liz during the S2/S3 break. We have hinted on some aspects already...the DOUBTS that each of them had. Just how do Max and Liz go about reconciling their major head-on collisions in a satisfactory way?

I don't think-
"Uh, Liz, she's an alien hottie, and I was just curious about getting some of that sumptin sumptin, ya know what I mean?" -does them justice. Am i right? [please say yes]LOL.

Reply#8, from therealshapeshifter; I'm here now-sort of. Just got back, 7/16/03
from a lengthy business road trip.
Any chance that either Skvode or seasononerulze would want to email me the archives of this discussion to post on the Archives site here: ulink.net/plum/Roswell
It would looks similar to: ulink.net/plum/Roswell/mindwarp.htm

btw, I played:
http://members.aol.com/tjasminoides/skovde.wav
but it sounds more like: Chevy
LOL

Reply#9, from therealshapeshifter; Ack! I miss-spelled Skovde again!, 7/16/03
Sorry. I am sleep-deprived (as usual). But, unlike the Season 3 Roswell writers, you will be merciful and kind to me. Right? :D

Reply#10, from season1rulez; ok =), 7/17/03
woah...different pronunciation than I was thinking, there! ;) Now I'm even *more* curious where you came up with it! lol

"What...What.. Whaaat?! Yet you are asking Max and Liz to go down the path of least resistance? Or just not the path of MOST resistance? 8)"

lol Exactly. And besides, like I've said, I more prefer TV to *escape* reality! ;) Strength of will is required in REAL life, if one plans to maintain "solid morals." And, of course, in the real world...there's no guarantee of mercy or compassion...no actual limit to how tough it could get. Thus the saying. ;)

"There might be a lot of interesting debate and discussion with a 'candy-fan', there are paths that can be traveled with a candy, but ultimately we'd want to go separate directions because we enjoy different peaks, a different panoramic view...it is best appreciated with someone who is very compatible with your own point of view."

ahhh...and the light goes on. =) Point taken, Skovde.

"Candies and Dreamers most likely would get into a scuffle and devil's advocacy rather than an earnest discussion to try to reach the same peak. I don't really want to let a discussion devolve into that kind of brouhaha."

Eek! No kidding!! =( You really see us going there, though? I mean, if *neither* of us wants to...

"Implying that I am sadistic and cruel for appreciating "The End of The World", or the story line of season 2 and 3. A sadist, being someone who derives pleasure from watching people suffer...which is not the case with me."

Oh. I guess this would be one of those cases where it only hurts if it's not true, huh? And at the time, it appeared that it was true...to me. Sorry, Skovde. I really *didn't* intend for that.

"And it brings up the idea of sports in general, boxing, wrestling, football, hockey...they can be rough and tough to watch. There are plenty of people who declare them as being brutal and unnecessary. In some ways they might be, but playing them, or watching them is fun, for me. Maybe not each and every event, but in general. It's just part of enjoying "sports" or a "story" and hoping your team or your favorite couple does well, but realizing they might get knocked down more than you'd care to see. You know, maybe the fact that I am a Red Sox fan gives me a greater tolerance for painful situations. 8) I don't know whether to laugh out loud or cry out loud with that statement. LOL
or COL.?"

Well I know which one *I'm* picking! =D hehe... Actually, you have *nothing* on me there, Skovde. ;) I've been a die-hard Royals fan since I was 6 years old (AFTER they started to suck)! And we've gone over to KC for the games, EVERY summer...since forever. I faithfully sat out there -- in 100 degree heat -- and watched us get pounded, year after year! =( Though, we FINALLY seem to be catching a bit of a break this time around. ;) I come from a whole family of fanatic sports fans...and damn proud of it! lol So, the fine art of competition is not lost on me. ;) But see, that's what the athletes CRAVE. Sure, they don't *like* to loose...but that's the game...and they wouldn't have it any other way! Plus, they're getting paid all those millions, to help take the sting away. lol ;)

I don't see Roswell and sports as being in the same sphere, at all. (Except that I'm a fan of both. =) I could never see relationships...or a person's feelings...as being compared to something to be "played with." I know culture has MADE it into a "game." But it's NOT supposed to be, and it's NOT good. I realize that we watch it for entertainment, and (to SOME extent) we like to see them "go through stuff," because we can relate to that. But the idea with sports/competition is to get progressively "rougher and tougher"...and "knock the other guy flat"...literally or figuratively. ;) I get a REALLY bad (sick) feeling, when I think about putting people's hearts/emotions/relationships in THAT "box."

"But isn't that "taking the path of least resistance?"

well, I'm allowed to be a wimp once in while, aren't I? ;)

"Another example is the word 'shocking'. The only thing that would be shocking any more is if no media outlet ever used the word shocking, it has lost its meaning."

hmmm...interesting thought there. you're kinda right. ;)

"And that's part of the reason why the meaning of the word is lost. People are fed other notions and ideas that try to take the place of the meaning of the word. There is a casual acceptance by many people...the word has taken on a different meaning to many people, a lesser meaning."

yeah. I can see how they got there, though...sadly enough. I mean, how is it, that so often...people in end up in EXACTLY the opposite position (and worse off than when they started) that set out trying to achieve? =(

"Look, I don't know, I'm just playing make believe without the drugs. 8)"

I'm scared of drugs...and I'm scared to "play." With that, at least. Actually, I'm scared of the results/consequences.

"No no no, I don't know what you are thinking. LOL...ok maybe I do, but I don't know what you are thinking, I am thinking. ;)"

yeah, sure. lol ;) I don't buy a word of it, Skovde...I think you just like to play innocent! =D hehe

" And Liz did actually glow a little from a hickey, right? Now just imagine, during their intense and passionate...um, uh...embracing, she becomes alive with glowing sparkling lights, like a disco ball! 8)"

oh, I'm imagining! ;) lol I would be very hot, no doubt! =D

"When you start making declarations about souls, then people might get more easily offended. Someone might think that you are being a hoity-toity know-it-all for telling them they have something they don't understand."

Well, I guess some people *could* take it like that. But when I said it to you, I was *already* under the impression that you probably agreed. I wasn't too worried about it...and you didn't respond in any way that surprised me.

"This is another example of why our discussion is not as fun as fun can be, don't you see?"

sigh...yeah. Is this where I officially give up?

"When does a human soul appear in a human embryo? How does it appear? Is it flown in by angels to be placed within the embryo? Is it something that is established by a certain sequence of DNA? Do cellular functions begin to create a soul? Is this something only God is allowed to know?"

ok, the last one sounds good. ;) My belief? You can't "become" human. The soul is *there*...as soon as the life exists, from the moment of conception.

"I think your threshold has been more than surpassed, while mine hasn't. Does that make me an evil sadistic person?"

Maybe...I don't really know how to comment, without coming across the wrong way. I'm just not sure why we should have tolerance for OTHER people's suffering/pain?

"I don't think-
"Uh, Liz, she's an alien hottie, and I was just curious about getting some of that sumptin sumptin, ya know what I mean?" -does them justice. Am i right? [please say yes]LOL."

no. you're completely wrong, as usual. LOL =D sorry, that was just too easy. ;) *NO KIDDING, Skovde!!*

Reply#11, from season1rulez; typo, 7/17/03
ok, THIS time, I'm fixing it! lol In reference to the scene with "glowing sparkling lights like a disco ball"...I meant to say that "IT" would be very hot. lol Though...come to think of it...I might have to turn up the A/C while watching! =D LOL

Reply#12, from Skovde; Now it's my turn to be drowsy. 8), 7/17/03
S1r-"woah...different pronunciation than I was thinking, there! ;) Now I'm even *more* curious where you came up with it! Lol"

Sko- Well, it was either that or Stovde. No, not really.8)Skovde, which is said-
SKOV(E), like STOVE with a k, the SKO is like the 'sco' in SCO-PE, the De is like DUH. so SKOVE-DUH like STOVE-DUH

Skövde with an ö, is mostly pronounced two ways,
like Shev-duh. Or, try to say WHO without making the 'O' sound. It's hard to describe, it sounds like a puff of air or a breeze. Just WH-evde.
It's not like the WH- in WH-ere or Wh-at, more like WH-o.

S1r-"lol Exactly. And besides, like I've said, I more prefer TV to *escape* reality! ;) Strength of will is required in REAL life, if one plans to maintain "solid morals." And, of course, in the real world...there's no guarantee of mercy or compassion...no actual limit to how tough it could get. Thus the saying. ;) "Don't take the path of less resistance"

Sko- Do you know how it sounds coming from the self proclaimed "Champion of Hating Cruelty", to have her tell you that two fictional characters should get a free pass down dreamer lane and I, in real life, should go down a path that might be perceived as bearing some qualities such as cruelty? Yow. ;)

S1r-"Well I know which one *I'm* picking! =D hehe... Actually, you have *nothing* on me there, Skovde. ;) I've been a die-hard Royals fan since I was 6 years old (AFTER they started to suck)! And we've gone over to KC for the games, EVERY summer...since forever. I faithfully sat out there -- in 100 degree heat -- and watched us get pounded, year after year! =( Though, we FINALLY seem to be catching a bit of a break this time around. ;) I come from a whole family of fanatic sports fans...and damn proud of it! lol So, the fine art of competition is not lost on me. ;) But see, that's what the athletes CRAVE. Sure, they don't *like* to loose...but that's the game...and they wouldn't have it any other way! Plus, they're getting paid all those millions, to help take the sting away. lol ;) "

Sko- KC Royals 1985, BoSox, (shudder) 1918. No contest. 8(
Athletes practice for games, boxers spar. I'm not only talking about paid athletes here, I'm talking about anyone playing sports. Stories to real-life are like sparring to boxers. Stories are just like a practice, to learn, and to not really get hurt.

s1r-"I don't see Roswell and sports as being in the same sphere, at all. (Except that I'm a fan of both. =) I could never see relationships...or a person's feelings...as being compared to something to be "played with." I know culture has MADE it into a "game." But it's NOT supposed to be, and it's NOT good. I realize that we watch it for entertainment, and (to SOME extent) we like to see them "go through stuff," because we can relate to that. But the idea with sports/competition is to get progressively "rougher and tougher"...and "knock the other guy flat"...literally or figuratively. ;) I get a REALLY bad (sick) feeling, when I think about putting people's hearts/emotions/relationships in THAT "box."

Sko- Well to me it's just that stories and sports are like primers that stand beside "reality". They are diversions that let us escape, or let us fantasize, or let us compete, or let us learn. I can separate them well enough to have some tolerance of what I watch or read in a story, just as I can tolerate someone giving me a good body-check or crunching tackle. And we can learn and adjust ourselves by what we see portrayed in a show like Roswell.

Sko said-"Look, I don't know, I'm just playing make believe without the drugs. 8)"

s1r- "I'm scared of drugs...and I'm scared to "play." With that, at least. Actually, I'm scared of the results/consequences."

Sko- Then why are you bringing up "weed", vodka and hippies? I don't drink or do drugs. I'm dweebish that way. 8)

sko said-" And Liz did actually glow a little from a hickey, right? Now just imagine, during their intense and passionate...um, uh...embracing, she becomes alive with glowing sparkling lights, like a disco ball! 8)"

s1r -"oh, I'm imagining! ;) lol I would be very hot, no doubt! =D"

sko- Now that's quite the Freudian slip you got showing there S1r, a nice little pink n' lacy slip. LOL

sko said-"Is this something only God is allowed to know?"

s1r- "ok, the last one sounds good. ;) My belief? You can't "become" human. The soul is *there*...as soon as the life exists, from the moment of conception."

Sko- Ok, well this might get way off topic, if it gets into greater detail, soo, next paragraph. 8)

sko said-"I think your threshold has been more than surpassed, while mine hasn't. Does that make me an evil sadistic person?"

s1r- Maybe...I don't really know how to comment, without coming across the wrong way. I'm just not sure why we should have tolerance for OTHER people's suffering/pain?

Sko- Crulety is such an ambiguous term, just what is cruel? So many things can be called cruel. So many stories have some degree of cruelty in them, if you really look at it that way. Children almost always feel that parents are cruel.

Babylon 5, which is on Sci-Fi, would qualify as having many, MANY more "cruel" circumstances and I thought it was an incredible show. Delenn and Sheridan! They were awesome, but you would say cruel, cruel, cruel everything here is cruel...and painful.

I really haven't given it much thought why so many people can pass off all this "cruelty" that is portrayed in film/TV/video games/books, there certainly are degrees or different thresholds.

Again, I think we all here have shown the ability to take all of these cruel actions to task, to analyze them, to try to understand them in the proper context. It can apply to one's life, it can help people cope with their own difficulties if the see it in fiction. Hank is cruel to Michael, Michael is cruel to Maria, Maria is cruel back to Michael, Liz's mom and dad are cruel, Topolski is cruel, Valenti is cruel. When you begin to uncover the layers of cruelty, it, to me, is just something that anyone can learn from.

How does that song go,
"Cruel to be kind in the right measure
Cruel to be kind it's a very good sign
Cruel to be kind means that I love you
Baby, got to be cruel, got to be cruel to be kind"
a Nick Lowe, oldie.

Reply#13, from Skovde; Chevy? Lol, now I got to worry about…, 7/17/03
people typing Chevy? lol.
TRShapeShifter,
Well, Lisamm started this thing back in
Article #2742, then it went to
Article #2767, and now this is the third chapter.

I don't have the discussions tabulated in any structured form. S1rulez, do you? I would have to cut and paste them from the BBoard into a new file.

Reply #14, from therealshapeshifter; Yes, cutting and pasting. But at least, 7/17/03
if either of you does the cutting & pasting it will have some meaning and coherence to somebody, because I don't read everything I put on the Archives web site--I just "get the drift," which phrase, btw, I learned while I was in Iowa last week, is from Shakespeare's Merry Wives of Windsor.

So, if either of you wants to cut'n'paste'n'email it to me, I will format the html and upload it to the Archives.
But if y'all think cuttin'n'pastin' would cramp your philosphizing, never mind; just carry on with the discussion. Maybe some lurker will do it.
;)

Reply #15, from Skovde; I cannot tell what the dickens his name, 7/17/03
Is (3.2.15), from Merry Wives of Windsor. 8)
or is that "how it is pronounced?"

Reply #16, from season1rulez; archive formatting, 7/18/03
hmmm...I've got some of it in Word format, cuz it takes less room on the disk! lol =D But I think you're wanting someone to break it all down...like group "related paragraphs," or something?? That'd be a *job*! lol I'm kinda getting ready to move, right now...so it could be a few weeks before I had enough time to do all that! Maybe later on though, if neither of you gets a chance to do it before then... =) Btw Skovde, I thought #2786 was for a different thread, wasn't it??

Reply#17, from season1rulez; thread con't…, 7/18/03
"Well, it was either that or Stovde. No, not really.8) Skovde, which is said- SKOV(E), like STOVE with a k, the SKO is like the 'sco' in SCO-PE, the De is like DUH. so SKOVE-DUH like STOVE-DUH Skövde with an ö, is mostly pronounced two ways, like Shev-duh. Or, try to say WHO without making the 'O' sound. It's hard to describe, it sounds like a puff of air or a breeze."

Interesting...which language/nationality does that originate from? Do you know what it means??

"Do you know how it sounds coming from the self proclaimed "Champion of Hating Cruelty", to have her tell you that two fictional characters should get a free pass down dreamer lane and I, in real life, should go down a path that might be perceived as bearing some qualities such as cruelty? Yow. ;)"

And do you know how confused I am at the moment...about how I'm supposed to take that?? Or maybe that was the whole idea. I mean, I'm not even sure what you're talking about...except that apparently, you think I've hung myself with my own rope. lol Ok, so I guess it wouldn't be the first time! ;) When did I ever claim to be the champion of hating cruelty...or anything LIKE that?? Just because I said it was bad, and don't think people should've taken it so far...or be enjoying it, or whatever? I never said I was better than anyone, and I'm definitely NOT the nicest person I know. Which "path" are you talking about? And how is it cruel? The only reason I brought up "least resistance," in the first place, was because you were talking about just wanting conversations that were "easy" and more "fun." Which sounded like you'd much prefer someone to *agree* with you, than to challenge your thinking. Although, I wasn't actually convinced that THAT was what you *meant*...I threw the comment in there...as a half-joking response, to a seeming desire for an "ego stroke." I understand better what you *really* meant, since the dreamer/candy analogy. But even so, like I said, it wasn't EVER supposed to taken completely "for real"...not even originally.

"KC Royals 1985, BoSox, (shudder) 1918. No contest. 8( Athletes practice for games, boxers spar. I'm not only talking about paid athletes here, I'm talking about anyone playing sports. Stories to real-life are like sparring to boxers. Stories are just like a practice, to learn, and to not really get hurt."

Ok, *that* doesn't count...you haven't been a fan since 1918, so it doesn't matter! They may as well have won in 1970 -- how would you really know the difference? And a lot of good does ME, that the Royals won in 85. It's not like I could remember! LOL People only care about the last 5 or 10 years, anyway. I mean, really, everyone thinks of the Royals as being about the worst team in baseball...cuz they pretty much have been, for the last several years. =( The only people who know we were good in the 80's, are the FANS. =D (Oh, and of course, the people who look it up online to prove a point. ;) lol

"Well to me it's just that stories and sports are like primers that stand beside "reality". They are diversions that let us escape, or let us fantasize, or let us compete, or let us learn. I can separate them well enough to have some tolerance of what I watch or read in a story, just as I can tolerate someone giving me a good body-check or crunching tackle. And we can learn and adjust ourselves by what we see portrayed in a show like Roswell."

Yeah, we can learn from it, and better ourselves from it. But what exactly are we "learning," by *watching* so much cruelty...or the absence of mercy/compassion? I mean, whatever I put into my head is going to affect my life, and thinking in *some* way. It's one thing to build your OWN threshold for pain...it's a different thing entirely, to become "tolerant" to other people's suffering. How will you NOT start to expect *them* to have a greater threshold for pain, just like you've learned to do yourself? Especially if you build your tolerance through stories of others being tormented...for entertainment? I definitely see the value of learning "life lessons"...or "practicing"...through TV shows. But aren't there some things we shouldn't "get used to"? And being tackled is happening to *you* -- the story is "happening" to someone else. I just think there's an important distinction in there, which is easily overlooked. People seem to have trouble maintaining empathy for those around them, after they spend so much time trying to "toughen up," increase their own tolerance for pain/struggle. It could become a really dangerous/harmful thing...IMO.

"Then why are you bringing up "weed", vodka and hippies?"

What do you mean? How does my mentioning those things, cause us to talk about the origin of souls...or "extensions" of the same spirit, etc?!

"Now that's quite the Freudian slip you got showing there S1r, a nice little pink n' lacy slip. LOL"

Ohhhh, no you don't! That is NOT what I was really thinking, and I really DID just forget the "t"!! Dang it, Skovde...now you've you got me blushing redder than strawberries. lol

"Ok, well this might get way off topic, if it gets into greater detail, soo, next paragraph. 8)"

Huh? NOW who balks at stepping up to the plate?! And since when are we bound by "topics"? You can tell me I'm an idiot if you want to. It's not like you'd be the first, or like I'd be surprised. There are plenty of pro-choice people around here, too...if that's where you're going (or *not* going, I guess)...and I agree they have a legitimate point. It's just they tend to have a problem with priorities. IMO

"Crulety is such an ambiguous term, just what is cruel? So many things can be called cruel. So many stories have some degree of cruelty in them, if you really look at it that way. Children almost always feel that parents are cruel."

Why is it ambiguous, just because it's common? Parents ARE cruel, from what I've seen. True, maybe not EVERY time a kid says so...but then, it's not *always* just the kid being too young/immature to figure out what's right. People seem to be under that impression. =( I think they forget too much, too soon.

"I really haven't given it much thought why so many people can pass off all this "cruelty" that is portrayed in film/TV/video games/books, there certainly are degrees or different thresholds."

Uhm...I'm not totally sure what you mean here?

"Hank is cruel to Michael, Michael is cruel to Maria, Maria is cruel back to Michael, Liz's mom and dad are cruel, Topolski is cruel, Valenti is cruel. When you begin to uncover the layers of cruelty, it, to me, is just something that anyone can learn from."

Yeah, I could see that. But, in my thinking, NONE of those instances were carried out to the "extreme" like TEOTW was. Not even close. They showed some negative things, but they were always accompanied by relief and support...and they weren't "drawn out" or shown with that kind of "intense focus." I guess to me, they really weren't on the same level...in ANY sense.

Reply#18, from season 1rulez; oh good grief, 7/18/03
about which "path"...never mind. I just now noticed what was right in front of my face. This is when my grandma would say that "if it had been a snake, it would've bit me." Although, at least THAT way...it would only happen ONCE.

Thanks to Skovde for sending the Word-formatted discussion to shapeshifter.

The new discussion begins with Scifi Roswell BB thread #2849.