The Science Fiction of Four Square (Page 1)
This topic was 3 pages long.
MoonFire Moderator Posts:515 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 04-24-2000 01:11 PM
Please post all discussion surrounding the science fiction aspects
of the episode Four Square here
stogy
Moderator
Posts:1168 Registered: Aug 99 posted 04-24-2000 04:38 PM
Just bumping this up since showtime is almost here for us central
and eastern time zone people!
MoonFire Moderator Posts:515 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 04-24-2000 05:55 PM
Five minutes to go!
(Hmmm I wonder if the magic BRT Easter bunnies will appear?)
JanetMG Member Posts:164 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-24-2000 07:50 PM
Still digesting this one, folks. So were the nuns and madonna
w/child statue foreshadowing a "virgin" birth of sorts? If Isabel is
pregnant, does that mean Tess is pregnant too? Exactly what kind of
contact, mental or physical, leads to pregnancy in their species?
(I'm assuming there has to be some kind of contact, but could a
female of the species get pregnant without even meeting the other
alien?) Was the primal-force-awakening thing that Max & Is talked
about conception? Was the contact between M&M and I&A simply because
Michael & Isabel were freaking or is some element of human
interaction needed in some way for alien conception here? I.e., was
the simultaneous need to connect with humans just a storytelling
gimmick or something more? All of a sudden I feel like I need to
rewatch the episode--that I couldn't have actually heard Isabel say
she was pregnant w/Michael's child.
On the astronomy front--if you added the planet Venus to part of the
constellation Aries would you really get that V?
Does the fact that Venus-Aries combination started up around the
time Tess arrived mean there is some sort of internal clock
programmed in them? We may have to let the orb off the hook as a
causation force.
The pods were located outside of Roswell. It didn't look like a
thrown together "our ship just crashed and we need to hide the pods
quickly and escape the government forces" set up. When and by whom
were they set up? The ship-crashed-must-hide scenario did seem
applicable to the orb, however, in SH. Did they come on different
ships? Did the government find the pods & set up a secret facility?
Doesn't seem likely, given MM&I's easy exit. Did the government find
it after they left, but before Tess broke out? She seems to have
knowledge that you wouldn't think she could get from the government
(absent a pet alien), including the location of the book.
Is there a book or similar information at the Roswell location of
every symbol on the map? I wonder if the orb was actually buried
where the symbol on it appears on the map. Was the symbol on the
book the same symbol Michael & Isabel burned in front of the
library? Did their action trigger the presence/materialization of
the book?
If the primal-force-awakening thing is their alien nature, why have
they had some powers since they were small? You almost get the
feeling that their powers have been locked away, but the "container"
was leaking. Is it a training method of some sort or just the alien
version of puberty? (Makes ya wonder about menopause.)
Think I better stop until I can organize my thoughts a little
better. Have a good night, all.
BehrAll Member Posts:158 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-24-2000 08:05 PM
I found this episode very unsettling, but I'm still wondering about
all this stuff too, so ...
The Pods: I agree that's it's weird how "deliberately" placed and
hidden they were, but I think it's possible that Nesedo or someone
else could have tried to prtoect them after the crash ... or maybe
the crash was staged as a diversion from a pod plantation site ...
anyways, there are lots of possible explanations. Like maybe the
pods were designed like sophisticated escape pods, capable of making
adjustments and monitoring life support etc. to ensure the safe
birth of their occupants.
Sexual Bonding: I'm beginning to think that it takes all four of
them to be together to "awaken" or trigger what obviously seems an
intended pairing off ... gives whole new meaning to the term
"planned parenthood" *weak grin*. I am also beginning to get the
sinking feeling that M/M/I's fascination with L/M/A was a
manifestation of a procreative drive thwarted ... but which now will
take precedence (*starting to feel downright nauseaus here ...*). My
only reason for hoping this is off-base is that Max fell in love
with Liz when they were children ... BUT what if he was just looking
for a way to replace/sublimate the bond he "lost" with Tess because
she wasn't "born" yet?
BTW, that brings to mind another question: why wasn't she?
Gotta go think about this some more ...
Oh, yeah, I'd like to hear from any resident experts on astronomy,
too. Any takers?
Kate6058 Member Posts:1079 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-24-2000 08:19 PM
So I guess it's okay for the writers to rewrite the aliens'
history... originally, Max and Isabel found each other in the desert
and located Michael later... that's definitely not what happened
tonight!
I loved the whole "four square" theme. I love the titles of all of
these episodes (Max to the Max... can't wait for it! and The Toy
House... that was a really clever one) I would have liked it a
little better if they'd tried to make us think more about the four
square instead of pointing it out every five minutes... but that was
okay
Shee Member Posts:134 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-24-2000 08:39 PM
There has been a question posted again concerning the 'pods' looking
as if they had been carefully placed, instead of hurredly hidden. A
while back I read somebody's provocotive(sp) post concerning the
pods. Why do we assume that the spaceship crashed on landing? Why
couldn't it have crashed upon lift off? Thus allowing time for the
pods to be safely hidden? Just pondering the possibilities.
Shee
stargazer__2000 Member Posts:150 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-24-2000 08:39 PM
I agree Kate, what happened to Max and Is. coming out of the same
pod wasn't that the idea, that they were sister and brother? Also
mislead by Blood brothers podding of michael.
When all the spoilers came out(that I avoided) about Tess, I guessed
at the 4 pod symbol, but we still have the 'caterpillar'(ship?) and
all that language to go.
What was odd is how Tess 'knows all' about everything and she was
the last to be born, I bet the gov. raised her so she's more in tune
with her alien side.
magpie007 Junior Member Posts:20 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-24-2000 08:40 PM
I think that Max as a child was looking for the thing he had lost
because Tess had not been born as yet. Maybe he saw something in Liz
that helped him to relate to Tess.
The way I see it....At first there were 3 of them so the link was
broken. When Tess finally found them, everything was set right once
again. The link is now fixed. That is why all this stuff is
happening between Tess & Max and Isabel & Michael. This was how it
was supposed to be but the link was broken...As we will see in the
upcoming episodes each pair loved each other in thier last life and
came here(to earth) togther to save their people.
Personally I can't wait for this pairing to happen. It will
definately make the show more interesting and I want to see what
will happen when 2 aliens do the wild thing....
magpie007 Junior Member Posts:20 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-24-2000 08:44 PM
I think that Max as a child was looking for the thing he had lost
because Tess had not been born as yet. Maybe he saw something in Liz
that helped him to relate to Tess.
The way I see it....At first there were 3 of them so the link was
broken. When Tess finally found them, everything was set right once
again. The link is now fixed. That is why all this stuff is
happening between Tess & Max and Isabel & Michael. This was how it
was supposed to be but the link was broken...As we will see in the
upcoming episodes each pair loved each other in thier last life and
came here(to earth) togther to save their people.
Personally I can't wait for this pairing to happen. It will
definately make the show more interesting and I want to see what
will happen when 2 aliens do the wild thing....
LSS Member Posts:671 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-24-2000 09:41 PM
Okay...this episode raises more questions in some ways than it
provides answers for. Some of the these questions revolve around the
following key issues:
ALIEN VS. HUMAN: THE NATURE VS NURTURE QUESTION. No other episode
has so clearly and repeatedly drawn the line between alien and human
as this one. Michael's question to Max: Why are you so scared to be
alien? is echoed back by Max's words to Michael: Why are you so
scared to be human? Are M/Mi/I really "alien"? Max says that Nesado
is the alien and that he was raised human. But what does being
"raised human" really mean? Is Max simply in denial here? Or is
"being human" more than a biological fact? What does it mean to "be
human"?
Moreover what does it mean to "be alien"? Do dreams constitute
procreation for this species? Have Michael and Isabel "done it"
now--?
THE PODS AND THE CAVE. The significance of the flashes Max
experienced in TLV now become clear. The hand print and the pod we
saw then clearly refer to Tess' pod--which the three leave behind as
they exit the cave. Exactly how they got into the cave however
remains a mystery. Were they transfered there after the crash? Or
were the pods ever in that 1947 crash? If those pods are analagous
to growth chambers, then were our quartet (alas, no more "trio")
"grown" in the pods...or were they simply in statis there?
THE BOOK. Tess pulls the book from the library wall and later tells
Max that it contains their destiny. Exactly what that destiny is,
however, remains as yet a mystery. But several times in the episode,
Tess refers to "remembering" as if deep inside our alien teens there
lies a memory trying to surface. What is this memory and what will
happen once our teens "remember"? How will this affect their
relationship with their human comrades?
I have to admit I found this episode VERY unsettling...and I suspect
that this was exactly the response the writers were aiming for. For
this begins our exploration of Max & co. as REAL aliens--something
that we have not really come to grips with in our previous
preoccupation with Roswell's romantic storyline. One wonders how Liz
might have felt had she seen Max crawl out of that slimy pod. But I
wager that she will have to face Max's alien nature in these next
episodes...and so will Max! What do you think will happen when they
finally realize that while we may have been reading from Romeo and
Juliet before....now we are solidly in X-file territory?
What do you think?
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-24-2000).]
Mimi Member Posts:321 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 04-24-2000 09:58 PM
If aliens are raised in pods, then that means that the "embryos"
develop outside the body, right? Then how can Isabel be pregnant? is
she pregnant?
Lacrosse Dude Member Posts:683 Registered: Sep 99 posted 04-24-2000 10:00 PM
I do not see how Isabel could be pregnant...whyhave two sexes if you
have asexual reproduction - does this mean the Max and Mike are
preggers too - I think not...just a lame clifhanger I hope.
The difference in the pod and link up stories could be explained by
the fact they didn't remember anything until after they were
outside, it was night, and they were slime free. It was only Tess
that brought back the even earlier memories.
About the well hidden pods...in the real story the crash was at
night, and not discovered until the storm had passed the next
morning...so they could have had upto 8 hours to secure the pods in
the cave, and then for Nasedo to get chased off by the military and
hide the space potato under the tower.
What I wonder is, why did Tess not come out at the same time...was
she damaged (oh god I hope so!)
just more and more mysterious...like why does Tess not think it is
weird to be being followed...afterall her father is Mister paranoid,
whynot her?
tld movieboy
TrueAccent Member Posts:198 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-24-2000 10:35 PM
Is it a forgone conclusion that an alien embryo grows in the pod?
Isn't it still possible the the pods were merely containers in which
to transport the children to earth, much like the cryogenic(sp?)
tanks we see in so many of the sci fi movies today.
One thing is for sure, this episode sure left me with a lot of
questions. Wow, this show just keeps getting better and better! Like
you LSS, I am a bit aprehensive about seeing the alien side to
M/M/&I. Is this the part of them that makes them kill like Nasedo,
and if so, can they fight it once it surfaces? Hmmm I have lots of
thinking to do.
virgogurl Member Posts:919 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 04-24-2000 10:43 PM
Shee: That theory has definitely gotten my mind to go places. I am
coming up with so many theories for that one. hmm....so many
possibilities. I love this show!
Also, i dont think Isabel is preggers. I mean, they have human
bodies, which i think would give them the essential human body parts
for reproduction. And since Michael and isabel, (by the looks of
things) didnt actually DO IT, i dont think there was anyway she
could be pregnant. Maybe, tess is making her think this way. I
dunno. That was another one of my theories. That Tess, becuz she is
here now, is completing the square, and making them have these
visions and new-found feelings.
LSS Member Posts:671 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-24-2000 10:59 PM
By the way, let me announce that we now have a "Science Fiction
Review" column on the episode page. I have finished reviews of six
episodes (I'm doing the last half of the season first and will go
back and fill in the previous episodes later) and will try to get
Four Square out in the next few days.
LSS
Jufemme Junior Member Posts:10 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-24-2000 11:18 PM
hey
well, four square is still churning over in my head. as an episode,
it was miles beneath tess, lies, and videotape, which had me
squeeling the entire hour. too much too quick, maybe.
on the sci-fi angle... i'd *really* like to know what the four
sqaure significance is. rosta, where are u?
a while back on the very first sf thread, the idea of max as some
sort of messiah was brought up. it seems that lately michael and max
have switched roles. max's reliability has gone into a tailspin
lately, and it was *michael* who leads them out of the pod cave.
also in the cave, it was michael who first used his powers. ironic,
since he's the one with the least control now. this reversal of
roles is a topic in itself.
CONTINUETY ::sighs:: i'm a big fan of the x-men comic books, and
with 30 years of changing authors continuety has become an
endangered species. roswell has been on the air for how long? not
even a year, i don't think. total disregard for canon is just plain
sad. coming up with elaborate solutions to reconcile these mistakes
is great fun though
TESS... is fake. all over. as has been stated, what is alien,
anyway? she obviously knows much more than the trio; got seporated
for some reason; is having weird affects on *everyone*; and has a
general...foul... vibe around her. as a char, she's great! however,
i firmly believe that she has an agenda. she could've put the
'memories' and 'dreams' into their heads. why is the question.
my 2 cents. god, i love this thread.
MEP
Member Posts:31 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-24-2000 11:19 PM
I think that Max's initial account of their emergence from the pods
was different because he did not remember what really happened until
now - his recollections were probably rather vague. And Michael did
leave ahead of them, so it seems to me that the rest of it could
still have occured pretty much the way Max said it did.
About the aliens' sexual awakening: someone suggested somewhere (I
hope I'm getting it right) that the M/L events in SH were triggered,
at least in part, by a lowering of his "defenses" when he got drunk
- after all, that is when the visions started (still confused about
the orb). And I think it's safe to assume that alcohol is not a
requisite (although it can help). Now... Michael's walls have also
been crumbling for the last couple of episodes and I think it's
significant that Isabel's first vision of Michael occurs just as her
subconscious is finally willing to start a "relationship" with Alex
(Michael replaces Alex in the dream). Is it possible that M/M/I's
willingness to finally open up (to the humans) is what causes this
strange alien "puberty," this new awareness of their previously
"repressed" alien selves (it does seem that that's what's
happening)? How ironic would that be? But I suppose it could still
be the other way around and it's the "internal programming" that
facilitated the alien/human rapprochement (although I don't like
that idea nearly as much).
About Venus: are they just being obvious when they use this
particular planet, with all the well-known mythological
connotations, as the element that completes the proper configuration
(five stars/now five aliens; Venus/Tess added to the mix - sexual
maturation; what about Nasedo's role in all this?)? I too wish I
knew whether there is any factual basis for this (I took an intro
astrophysics course in college, but it was pretty abstract -
precious little star/constellation-gazing involved).
Don't think I can address the pregnancy thing without getting into
spoilers, but I want to bring up what was, for me, the most
intriguing part of the episode: the "temporal anomalies" (now I KNOW
I've watched too much STNG!). There seemed to be some indication of
this already in that first, very surreal, very interesting M/T scene
in TLV, not only because Max seems to be missing chunks of
"real-time" of undetermined length as he has the visions, but also
because of the precognitive nature of said visions (and now it's
clear that at least one of them was precognition - maybe all?). In
"4 Square" Isabel clearly says that she "lost" a few seconds when
she was with Tess, although there were not actual visions. Then,
there are the constant sudden switches from day to night, not just
in their dreams (that would be understandable), but also in that
last scene with Max and Tess, which is real. What does this all
mean? Could our aliens, in their "pure" state, have an entirely
different perception of space and time than humans do (sheesh, I
have snippets of Kant flashing through my mind right now - NOT a
pleasant experience at this hour)? This would raise a lot of
interesting questions about the notion of "destiny": the idea of a
"plan", a "purpose" for every action, is really only meaningful (in
the philosophical sense) if one assumes the existence of a God, or,
at the very least, of a creature (like Laplace's demon) possessing
SOME of the attributes that are commonly ascribed to God (such as
the ability to "see" the future and perhaps even compare the
outcomes of different choices?).
I realized while typing this that I needed to think about it for a
while longer, and preferably not at 2 AM. So many interesting
developments in this episode (I have now officially decided that I
HATE the new, faster pace - too much good stuff gets left out). OK,
off I go.
Nightowl Member Posts:1031 Registered: Apr 99 posted 04-25-2000 12:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by BehrAll:
BUT what if he was just looking for a way to replace/sublimate the
bond he "lost" with Tess because she wasn't "born" yet?
BTW, that brings to mind another question: why wasn't she?
I think her pod malfunctioned or something, because if you look at
the last part again, she's a heck of a lot smaller than the other's,
and her pod has like condensation and stuff on it. Plus, Tess is
different to the others in that she's tiny, has those wild curls,
and has BLUE eyes.
I think the pods were life chambers, the lights behind them pulsed
like heartbeats. Also, did anyone else pick up the sound of the
fetal heartbeat anf the human heartbeat in Izzy's second dream when
she saw the flashes of the fetus? Great touch there.
Eden
BehrAll Member Posts:158 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 12:32 AM
I just remembered something interesting that might bear some
significance on the whole Subjugation of Free Will to Biological
Imperative subject:
When Isabel sees Michael in the desert in her first(?) vision, she's
first with Alex, then with Michael, but then again with Alex.
Now, did that happen just because Alex was speaking to her in "real
life", thus inserting himself into her mental consciousness, or was
she "fighting" the link with Michael -- demonstrating that, the
whole pairing-off thing aside, M/M/I ultimately can be, and be with
(as Liz put it) -- who they want? Also, if the vision WAS
Tess-induced, why would she put Alex in it anyway?
[This message has been edited by BehrAll (edited 04-25-2000).]
obiwan1 Junior Member Posts:13 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-25-2000 01:12 AM
At this point I am in denial. I think that Tess planted those
memories in Max's mind. She's into the whole mind manipulation
thing. He looked like a zombie when she was driving him to the rock.
It was like he wasn't all there and it took all night for him to
remember? I think she is trying to change his memories. Remember Iz,
Max and micheal remember the same things.. Then Tess comes and the
story is way different?
ROStaFEHRian
Member Posts:27 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-25-2000 01:31 AM
Just dropped out of hyperdrive to say Hello to my SFof... posting
friends. I miss all of you very much and I miss posting. I am sooo
swamped with work. I have finals and graduation in the next 2-3
weeks and I have a research project that is only now getting jump
started but I have to finish for my second graduation in June from
another program. I am in a low-level panic state at this point. I
was not feeling so well a couple of weeks ago (and I felt a whole
lot worse after filiing my tax returns).
It is very hard to catch up, but I have been trying. BTW-superlative
posting on the prior SF of.., and a couple of other, threads. But I
haven't had time to make any notes or look up anything. I haven't
been able to carefully watch the last 2 eps.
I'll try to jump in every now and then. My much used/abused and
favorite Grail book got wet with OJ in Atlanta and started growing
mold and I had to throw it out.
Anyway, to get on topic here, I have always believed that the trio
(and now Tess?) are hybrids. This suggests contact with humans by an
"alien" species at some point in time.
My questions relate to what is alien. I have discussed this before
(probably far more coherently). Was there an alien culture that came
here and remained (by choice or circumstance) for whatever reasons,
and altered the course of evolution here? Were M/M/I/?T created to
carry on and perpetuate the dreams and genes and lives of those who
have come before? Did they (the "old ones" "the watchers" , etc)
come and leave; or were they from here originally then
left-returned-and left(or try to) again? You get the picture. Anyway
you look at it, it seems these teens are..ancient. Or their their
memories and souls are ancient (the collective unconscious).
I'm not sure if I'm making sense (its 4a and I have to get a train
in 2 hours). I'll try to straighten it out later. But do think it is
possible that Michael and Is ( or the souls/essences of those who
were M and Is) already did the pretzel, had a child, and lived a
life (lives)? Perhaps what they are experiencing feels real because
it WAS. And Is is not pregnant, and only has the "memory" of the
experience.
Hmm. This gets into The Grail Child Myth. I can't got there. So.
What happened (??will happen) to the/a Grail child (the correct
bloodlines)?
I am unspoiled so I am just dithering here.
Is the Buddha significant? Far out, unrestrained speculation here,
but maybe a child is The Fifth One?
Mike emerging and knowing what to do first is very significant, as
others have noted, and worthy of discussion on it's own as is Tess
remaining behind.
About Max. In achieving his grail-ideal and self realization (ie, he
wil have to confront his true Alien), and by overcoming obstacles,
Max may be changed/matured, etc. He may come to view his sense of
moral obligations, duty, and SERVICE to be such that his greatest
love may become, in his mind, his greatest sacrifice. That is: he
will exercise FREE WILL in one area to achieve/realize his Alien
soul (the imperative).
On the other hand, Tess-of-the-Metallic Template-Cookbook (ie,
biological imperative), who is also being changed and altered by her
contact with "humans", will realize her inner Human, hence, may
sacrifice her inner Alien (which is ALL that SHE knows, I think) )
to sacrifice (?herself) to protect those she SHOULD come to love.
This may explain what a few of you have referred to by pointing out
her "surprise" at her/Max's reactions as seen in TLV. And also her
feelings for Is and Liz, too. She can't be all bad or evil.
If Max is a leader, then he WILL have to make a great sacrifice. His
Alien self (as Tess' Human self) will emerge. Don't take this to
mean that he will lose or submerge the Human. His soul (by grand
design?) represents the integration of the best of both worlds.
Lurker!ROSta (rumors of my absence have been greatly exaggerated).
[This message has been edited by ROStaFEHRian (edited 04-25-2000).]
BehrAll Member Posts:158 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 02:18 AM
Maybe all of you who've been discussing the socio-political
implications of aliens in/and society can help me out.
In the ALIEN VS. HUMAN category: Do you sense something malevolent
in the apparently inflexible "pairing off" of the four aliens?
Think about it:
I think it's pretty obvious that M/M/I's people intended for them to
assimilate into human society; why else go to so much trouble to
hide their origins and maintain human facades? (Assuming, of course,
that this is what happened). So, why "pre-programme" them to mate
with their own? (Assuming, again, that hybrid procreation is
possible; if it isn't, well, then I'll apologize later).
Integrating into human society would, one extrapolates, create
strong bonds and loyalties; is it possible that the aliens are
deliberately trying to avoid this, to create the least amount of
resistance possible when they come to blow humankind off the
proverbial map?
I'm kind of hoping that their intent was more benevolent, that they
were just trying to ensure that their offspring would not be alone,
that each would come all set with a partner (I mean, just look at
what being isolated has done to Michael -- maybe he's not resisting
Tess so much because he's not feeling so alone now).
BTW -- re THE PODS: I think that the pods were transport mechanisms,
not what the aliens were actually born out of. Maybe space travel is
a little like really deep-sea diving, where scientists have found
that changes in gravimetric (right word?) pressure can only be borne
if people "breathe" an oxygen-rich liquid compound, rather than air.
Re THE BOOK: I think it makes sense, if you're running the risk of
leaving infant beings on a strange planet where they will or might
be separated from guding forces, to leave a repository of knowledge
and "implant" some memories to use later, like maybe Michael's
knowing how to get out of the cave, hmmm?.
Ooh! Ooh! Does Tess knowing about the book blow theories of her
military complicity out of the water? 'Cause if they don't know
about it, how does she?! And if they do, why are they letting the
foursome have it? Hmmm ... this could be complicated.
Final thought (sigh of relief all around): I look forward (I think)
to Liz confronting Max's true "alien-ness"; I hope it will be a
growing experience, not a distancing one. Besides, if M/M/I were so
"linked" with Tess, why would they abandon her in the cave all
alone? I can't picture any one of them doing that to each other
under any circumstances, despite Max and Michael's growing
antagonism or child/Max's obvious reluctance to do so.
BTW -- ROStaFEHRian, love what you hd to say, it clarified and
solidified some of the thoughts I was having trouble putting into
words (not that THAT has ever stopped me from trying! ) I have to
admit, I would feel so much better about Michael and Is if the "past
lives" thing were true, and about Max -- I just can't bear the
thought of him sacrificing Liz (in any capacity) for anything less.
[This message has been edited by BehrAll (edited 04-25-2000).]
BehrAll Member Posts:158 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 02:45 AM
Oh, okay, *sigh* I really will try to keep my excessive posting to a
minimum, but I wanted an opinion:
I was thinking earlier (what with all these arcane alien mating
practices coming to light) that maybe what Max did that day in the
diner counted, however spontaneously and accidently, as a mating
ritual.
After all, many cultures have blood-letting and
blood-sharing/mingling rituals as part of their fertility
mythologies, and this one just went further in that the healing part
of it created a psychic bond ... (moreover, and I AM trying to be
circumspect, the loss of virginity might count as such a rite of
passage).
This would explain their growing bond since the event, culminating
in their passion in SH, AND it might also tie in with why Max seems
(by my estimation) to be drawing back from her now that a "higher
priority" fertility partner has come into the picture.
Too far-fetched?
magpie007 Junior Member Posts:20 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 04:19 AM
The Science Fiction Part of the show just keeps on getting better
and better. I have so many questions in my mind now about the four
of them. I can't wait for next weeks episode. The show keeps getting
better and better.
I keep wondering...if the show comes back next season, how will they
be able to top these episodes. Plus they will have to revamp
everything because as we can all see the stsge at which the show is
at now is totally different to how it was in the first episode.
Clint Member Posts:288 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2000 04:39 AM
Thoughts on the pods in the Cave.
Why did they lose there memoried of what happen before they left the
cave. They new they came out of the pods but nothing more. Was it
the plan to have them lose some memories when they left the cave.
I could see the comment why they didn't remember Michael until
outside. If by leaving their cave, theie memory was affected,
Michael left ahead of them in the show.
Also on Tess, There may of been a timing issue with when they are
let out of the pods.
I just hope it's not a "BIG" cliff hanger for the last show.
nermal Member Posts:78 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2000 05:07 AM
Max does really need to recognize the alien part of himself, as
Michael keeps reminding us. And maybe that's why the writers brought
Tess on the show. So Max can finally become a whole person by
discovering who he really is as an alien and merging that with how
he was raised as human.
I kind of like the way Max and Michael balance each other out. Sure
they fight sometimes, but they keep each other grounded in who they
are, and help each other to see both the alien and human in each
other. They pull each other back when one strays. (Michael going to
Topolsky with the orb and sending a message to Nasedo, Max wanting
to talk to Valenti, kissing Tess.)
What is the deal with the losing time when Tess is around? Is the
mind control deliberate or biological? It creeped Isabel out almost
as much as it did me. And Max looked like someone gave him a
lobotomy when he was with Tess. Except for when he got mad and
snapped out of it. (You need to snap more often, Max. Elastic Max,
LOL) So maybe they do have some defense against whatever was making
them blank out life that.
I like sci-fi, but I want Max, Michael and Isabel to be more than
prgrammed robots whose destiny is written in a book. Our beloved
aliens deserve better than that and so do we.
LSS Member Posts:671 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 05:51 AM
MAX AND HIS MYTHIC QUEST...
Welcome back Rosta!!! We have missed your insightful posts.
Remembering your mythic analysis on the the SF of SH thread, I'd
like to comment on what you said here when you noted that:
ON MAX--"In achieving his grail-ideal and self realization (ie, he
will have to confront his true Alien), and by overcoming obstacles,
Max may be changed/matured, etc. He may come to view his sense of
moral obligations, duty, and SERVICE to be such that his greatest
love may become, in his mind, his greatest sacrifice."
ON TESS: "On the other hand...who is also being changed and altered
by her contact with "humans", will realize her inner Human, hence,
may sacrifice her inner Alien (which is ALL that SHE knows, I think)
) to sacrifice (?herself) to protect those she SHOULD come to
love... She can't be all bad or evil."
If had to make an educated guess--I would say that your above quotes
have captured the essence of what will be the M/T relational story
arc for the Fall Season.
And--I am going to go out on a limb here (no spoilers, just
speculation)--I think that you are right that while MAx gets in
touch with his "alien" nature, Tess might get in touch with her
"human" one. I think that ultimately Tess may leave Max voluntarily.
I maintain that the vision in the cafe store room was precognitive
of that leaving. Thus...
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN FOR THE M/L RELATIONSHIP???? This might mean Max
may come to a point where he is willing to give up his soulmate in
the face of his DUTY (which would be the greatest sacrifice he could
make) while Tess might give up her destiny so that Max might remain
with his soulmate (her greates sacrifice).
Since Tess is a guest star only, I'm betting that the latter is what
will take place.
LSS Member Posts:671 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 06:03 AM
Jufemme wrote:
"a while back on the very first sf thread, the idea of max as some
sort of messiah was brought up. it seems that lately michael and
max have switched roles. max's reliability has gone into a tailspin
lately, and it was *michael* who leads them out of the pod cave.
also in the cave, it was michael who first used his powers. ironic,
since he's the one with the least control now. this reversal of
roles is a topic in itself."
Actually, you are right. If we use the messiah imagery, then Michael
functions here as a John the Baptist, paving the way out of the cave
for the one behind him. But Michael's "message" (if he has one) is
that Max remember and be faithful the the alien in him. Michael's
own quest has involved remembering and recapturing the "alien" in
him to the point that he has been willing to subsume everything and
everybody to that end.
If Max decides for the human over the alien, then I would not be
surprised to see these two pair off. Or we might see that, lured by
the alien side of his nature, Michael "forgets" for a moment what it
means to be human--with disasterous results. Either way, you're
right. Michael will need watching--and not just for what he does in
his dreams!
Behrall wrote:
"I was thinking earlier (what with all these arcane alien mating
practices coming to light) that maybe what Max did that day in the
diner counted, however spontaneously and accidently, as a mating
ritual."
This goes along nicely with the "altered Liz" theory (the reference
to the chemical nature of the attraction Liz felt at the beginning
of SH). If this is the case, then it may be a biological way out of
Max's own biological imperative. But, I've got to say, that thus far
the pull toward Tess seems to be biologically stronger (at least in
those "tranced" moments.
BUT, on the bright side--did anyone notice that aside from the sleep
scene, Max did NOT go into a mesmerized state this time?
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-25-2000).]
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-25-2000).]
Surleigh Member Posts:53 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2000 06:32 AM
I was thinking about the issue of Michael being the one to actually
lead them out of the cave, versus Max's version of events mentioned
in The Balance (I think). Max said that they (he and Isabel) could
sense him, but he didn't reveal himself right away.
If Michael is really their leader, he could have left the cave and
scouted around to make sure there was nothing there to harm them.
When Max and Isabel left, they could have forgotten about Michael
until he revealed himself.
Back to the Michael as their leader theory, I don't really buy it,
but it would also explain his reluctance to leave with Max and
Isabel, knowing there was another pod that hadn't hatched yet.
My wacky $.02
Elliott Member Posts:778 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2000 07:10 AM
This thread was the first place I came this morning because I knew
the discussion would be stimulating. And it is.
The only new observation I can add is that I was struck by how Tess
was presented as a supernatural presence in this episode. When Max
and Liz are having a painful discussion about the nature (in every
sense of the word) of aliens in the Crashdown, Max mentions the word
'monster,' and indeed Tess is presented like a vampire in an old
horror movie.
She is always here, there and everywhere, and simply seems to
appear, without a sound, unseen until she wants to be. It's also
clear that proximity to people somehow allows her to enter their
consciousness (or perhaps it is their subconscious she enters). She
seems scarily omnipotent, since she reveals to Liz that she knows
she is being followed. She is terror made real. The literal
embodiment of fear of the unknown alien, for both humans and the
aliens themselves. But it isn't just aliens she messes with -- there
is a strong implication that she 'bewitched' Mrs. Evans to learn
more about Isabel and especially (one imagines) Max.
The question about how spontaneous the sexual dreams Isabel and
Michael were having about each other, as well as the visions Max was
having about Tess, are hopelessly muddied, I think. It's clear to me
that Tess has 'Dreamwalked' into all three of her alien compatriots'
minds. She snagged Max with a ruse about her car because his
physical closeness to her allowed her to cast her spell. She seems
to feel she is simply enabling them to 'see' what is already buried
in their minds, but I wonder. While not the murdering Nasedo, she is
nevertheless a liar and a manipulator.
Perhaps the dream Isabel had at the opening of the show was
spontaneous. Her awakening sexuality was finding its natural outlet
with dreams of Alex, who clearly adores her (and whose grooming and
demeanor suggest they are rapidly moving him away from the idea that
he was ever the school nerd), but perhaps it is Tess that replaced
Alex with visions of Michael because this is the way it is 'supposed
to be.'
In this repect, Tess is a reactionary force, imposing an alien order
based on an old plan, willfully and implacably upsetting established
assumptions and relationships. She is an irritant, an agitant and
seems conscienceless. An interesting character, and again I bemoan
the fact that the producers didn't choose an actress more capable of
expressing Tess' complexity and attractiveness. As she squeaks out
her lines so chirpily, we must take it on faith that she is the
femme fatale she would have to be to have such a strong sexual
effect on all around her, including the women.
LSS Member Posts:671 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 07:34 AM
Elliot:
I agree...she reminded me of a succubus as she crawled over Max's
body...(shiver). And the figure at the window was frightening.
On another note: Did you notice how ALL of the aliens are now lying
and keeping secrets from each other and from their human allies? Max
doesn't tell Michael about the book or Liz about the content of his
flashes (even lies about them at first). Michael and Isabel lie to
Max about the dreams and blatently use Maria and Alex for whom, one
believes, they have honest feelings.
Only the humans seem to keep faith with each other and their alien
friends. And yes--Liz's actions might be interpreted as controlling,
but you get the sense that she honestly cares about what might
happen to Kyle.
Alien vs Human...this is what this show has always been about...it
just hasn't always been as painful to watch.
LSS
P.S. When Liz visited Tess' house and Tess said she was sorry that
Liz saw she and Max kissing--was this fake sentiment or a brief
glimmer of emerging humanity...Elliot what did you think?
October Junior Member Posts:14 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 07:41 AM
I have been lurking this board for 2 months now, and have so enjoyed
the SF threads. The observation I have, after watching 4Sq again, is
that I do not think Michael shared dream #1 and #3 with Isabel. #1
occurred when he was in the car with Maria outside of Tess' house.
He was awakened by the phone-not in sync with Iz. At the park, when
Iz looked at him, he gave no sign anything was out of the ordinary.
Dream #3 occurred when Iz was taking a nap in the middle of the
day-the next scene was Michael in his apartment trying to figure out
the map. Dreams #2 and #4 were shared by both, but Michael was in
the next room from Iz. Proximity seems to be key here. Are the
dreams Isabel's (with Tess' help)? If this is true, then Michael did
not share the actual "conception" dream. The pregnancy may only be
Isabel's fears.
October Junior Member Posts:14 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 07:43 AM
Sorry-double post!
[This message has been edited by October (edited 04-25-2000).]
mj28 Member Posts:356 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-25-2000 07:50 AM
I totally love your insight LSS. I agree with you about the show and
how it was sort of the Romeo & Juliet story in the begining. I fell
in love with the romance of the show. And now it IS more like
watching the X-Files in a reverse angle. I'm enjoying the story
line, but I miss the romanticism. I feel sorry for Liz, Maria, and
Alex. When they find out the real truth, I suppose they'll
understand. But in the mean time, Max, Michael, and Isabel need to
communicate better if they want'em to understand what's happening to
them before babies start popping out all of a sudden from Tess and
Izzy.
Michael
LSS Member Posts:671 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 08:33 AM
October:
Glad to see you come out of lurking. I'm at the office now, but when
I get home I'll look at those dream sequences again and respond.
Well done--and once again, glad you came ourt of stealth mode!
LSS
Leneba Member Posts:184 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 08:36 AM
You say space potato, I say space potahto
You say nature, I say nurture
space potato, space potahto
nature, nurture
Let's call the whole thing off
I really enjoyed the way the writers began to address the
alien/human, nature/nurture, instinctive(primal)/conscious issues.
I'm sure, as others have mentioned, that this will become a central
issue. We will see all of the aliens faced with a choice of which
side they will embrace, and at a cost to whom or what.
In my opinion, Liz's words to Max, something like, "We are who we
choose to be...we love whom we choose to love" is key. Liz knows
that Max is defined by more than his biology, that he is more than
the sum of his parts. This will resolve the conflict and become more
true in the end than even she knows. She says it with complete
certainty, but Max seems less than reassured. Max fears loss of
control, self-control included. The alien within, including unknown
and poorly understood biological drives represents this. He's had a
frightening taste of it with Tess, who embodies that unknown alien
aspect. Ulimately, I think he will prove what many of us hope. Max
(and M & I, one assumes)is a sentient individual capable of making
choices in his life independent of or despite a primitive,
biological drive. Ideally, he will be able to come to terms with the
unknown alien side (just as Michael is learning to become more
"human") and integrate all aspects of himself before facing the
challenge we all sense is on the horizon. Once he knows and accepts
himself fully, he will become more powerful--a true leader.
We can't really determine with certainty what defines alien and what
defines human until we know more about the alien side. How do we
know that certain qualities, such as love, compassion and friendship
are uniquely human? We don't. Actually, M,M&I are living proof that
they aren't. And aside from the use of powers, Tess's actions and
motivations are all too human as well. She lies, manupulates, is
rude and is possesive of Max's attention. I suppose it won't be
until we see Nasedo in his full glory that we understand the
qualities and characteristics of an alien free of the taint of
humanity. We assume Nasedo was a fully mature individual before he
arrived on earth.
Here's a question: Was Max under Tess's control when he went with
her? At first I thought it was another dream sequence. He seemed out
of it until he became angry.
Side note: I was glad to see Liz finally flexing some of her rumored
science muscles.
I'm going to have to rewatch this one. There was a lot to
assimilate, and I don't feel like I'm quite there yet.
Behrall and others who are new to the SF of threads, welcome and
I've enjoyed your comments immensely!
ROSta, glad to see you popping in again and I look forward to
reading your insights once your life settles down a bit.
[This message has been edited by Leneba (edited 04-25-2000).]
LSS Member Posts:671 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 09:37 AM
Lenebe:
You wrote:
"Max(and M & I, one assumes)is a sentient individual capable of
making choices in his life independent of or despite a primitive,
biological drive....Once he knows and accepts himself fully, he will
become more powerful--a true leader."
YES. This is, I think, the grail-quest that Rosta so wonderfully
discussed on a prior thread. Wrestling with who we really are is the
most difficult struggle of all--and Max has never really done that.
In this sense Michael is correct in his critique of Max. But Tess
(as catalyst) will not let Max remained in denial any longer. The
leader that emerges from this "dark night of the soul" will be
awesome indeed.
LSS
Elliott Member Posts:778 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-25-2000 09:39 AM
LSS, Laneba: Yours were excellent assessments of the major themes of
the episode. Betrayal, lying and manipulation were a motif, with our
three alien friends lying to each other, to the humans closest to
them, and (most pathetically) to themselves.
LSS: Yes, I think Tess was being dishonest with Liz in that scene.
Dishonesty is second nature to her. As has been discussed in other
threads, I don't think she hates humans so much as she finds them
irrelevant to her priorities. I don't think she really thinks Liz is
a threat to what she imagines is her rightful future with Max, and I
think she rather enjoys putting one over on poor Liz. Look at how
easily she traps and teases her in the Women's room at school . . .
Laneba: I found JB's expression in the car as Tess drives them to
the desert, haunting and disturbing. Yes, I think he was in a
trance. She summoned him from sleep after giving him tormenting
dreams, I feel. LSS is correct in identifying her with a succubus,
and Max seemed drugged and lacking free will in that sequence.
Perhaps as you suggest, his anger and panic roused him later.
LimeWarp Member Posts:109 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-25-2000 12:47 PM
Just some random thoughts, questions, etc.
In the beginning of the episode it appeared Isabelle was having a
dream about Alex who was then replaced in her dream by Michael. Do
you think Tess was dream walking in her dream and altered it while
she was there?
Can Tess telepathically communicate/plant visions in Isabelle,
Michael, and Max?
Can Tess tap into their (M/Mi/Is) repressed memories because she
knows they are there?
Are these dreams and visions simply happening because Tess is now
present in their life? She completes the link (the 4), so this is
triggering these visions and dreams in Michael, Isabelle, and Max?
If Tess is purposely taking them (M/Mi/Is),while they are awake, to
another
plane(?) to show them things then that could account for the missing
chunks of time.
LimeWarp Member Posts:130 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-25-2000 12:55 PM
Just some random thoughts, questions, etc.
In the beginning of the episode it appeared Isabelle was having a
dream about Alex who was then replaced in her dream by Michael. Do
you think Tess was dream walking in her dream and altered it while
she was there?
Can Tess telepathically communicate/plant visions in Isabelle,
Michael, and Max?
Can Tess tap into their (M/Mi/Is) repressed memories because she
knows they are there?
Are these dreams and visions simply happening because Tess is now
present in their life? She completes the link (the 4), so this is
triggering these visions and dreams in Michael, Isabelle, and Max?
If Tess is purposely taking them (M/Mi/Is),while they are awake, to
another
plane(?) to show them things then that could account for the missing
chunks of time.
LSS Member Posts:789 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 02:46 PM
I am posting to see if the second page of this thread will come up.
It appears we lost mala's thread in the crash which is a pity
because it had a good discussion going on it.
LSS Member Posts:789 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 03:53 PM
TO RESPOND TO SOME OF YOUR COMMENTS SEE BELOW IN CAPS
Can Tess telepathically communicate/plant visions in Isabelle,
Michael, and Max?
THIS IS CERTAINLY AN OPTION, ALTHOUGH WE HAVE NOT YET RECEIVED
CONFIRMATION OF THIS IN THE STORYLINE BEYOND INFERENCE.
Can Tess tap into their (M/Mi/Is) repressed memories because she
knows they are there?
WE KNOW THAT THE ALIENS CAN RECOVER REPRESSED MEMORIES (THESE ARE
THE FLASHBACKS WE'VE SEEN THROUGHOUT THE SERIES). THE QUESTION IS
WHETHER OR NOT THIS CAN BE CONTROLLED INTENTIONALLY AND WHETHER OR
NOT ONE CAN SELECTIVELY CHOOSE THE MEMORY ONE RECOVERS. THUS FAR NO
ONE HAS SHOWN THE ABILITY TO DO SO (UNLESS WE ARE SEEING THIS
ABILITY NOW IN TESS--BUT AGAIN THIS REMAINS IN THE REALM OF
SPECULATION--WE HAVE NO HARD EVIDENCE--YET).
Are these dreams and visions simply happening because Tess is now
present in their life? She completes the link (the 4), so this is
triggering these visions and dreams in Michael, Isabelle, and Max?
I WOULD SUGGEST THAT TESS IS THE CATALYST...BUT WHETHER THIS IS
INTENTIONAL OR BIOLOGICAL IS NOT CLEAR TO ME AT THIS TIME.
If Tess is purposely taking them M/Mi/Is),while they are awake, to
another
plane(?) to show them things then that could account for the missing
chunks of time.
INTERESTING SUGGESTION. SOMETHING IS
OBVIOUSLY HAPPENING IN THE TIME/SPACE CONTINUIM--BUT AGAIN EXACTLY
WHAT IS AS YET A MYSTERY. DO THEY ACTUALLY VISIT THE PAST AS
OBSERVERS ONLY? OR IS THIS PURELY A MENTAL EXPERIENCE? IF THE
LATTER--WHY DOES SO MUCH TIME ELAPSE (OR DID TESS SIMPLY GET MAX
RIGHT BEFORE THE SUN CAME UP?) IF WE HAVE SOMETHING DEALING HERE
WITH THE VERY FABRIC OF TIME...THIS OPENS VISTAS IT HURTS MY HEAD
EVEN TO CONTEMPLATE FOR OUR LITTLE ROSWELL SERIES!!!
LSS
Bookworm Junior Member Posts:17 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 04:09 PM
::Just a thought that michael leaving the cave first before tess
emerges instead of the messiah,grail or convulted leader scenarios
given I feel the simplest reason is correct.
Michael IMPLUSIVELY(completely in character)left before tess emerged
they were suppose to wait and leave together. IF you watch the scene
max is looking at tess pod and isabel is in no hurry to leave but
when michael leaves the cave she begins to follow and reaches out
for max.
This scenario also clears up some nagging continuity errors such
as:michael left first and so (when isabel and max searched for him
he hid)(what max said).
2)max in the cave hesitated before following so does he feel guilty
if he hadnt hesitated would they have found michael?
3)does the actions in the cave suggest alien pairings:isabel was
watching mike while max was watching tess pod?
comments welcome
BehrAll Member Posts:250 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-25-2000 09:03 PM
Can't really add much to the discussion, the "pros" seem to have
most (if not all) of the angles covered , but I was wondering:
Any thoughts on Tess' "lost language"?
Or why the book was hidden where it was?
Or how she knew where it was and how to recover it?
LSS Member Posts:789 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-25-2000 11:55 PM
Again...posting to bring up posts...there is a huge gap between the
board time and the last post. Talk about problems in the time
continuim! LSS
LSS Member Posts:789 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 05:32 AM
Behr All:
You asked:
"Any thoughts on Tess' 'lost language'? Or why the book was hidden
where it was? Or how she knew where it was and how to recover it?"
I think the symbol on the book's cover was the same symbol (I'm
going on memory here--I'll have to check) that Michael and Isabel
set on fire on the library lawn. (Which means it was also on that
cave wall.) I thought when I first saw it in SH that it looked like
a stylized eye--but on second thought I wonder if it is meant to be
a stylized solar system--it kind of reminds me of that red dwarf we
saw in SH. Also the angle in which it is written (slanted) is not
"eye-like".
Other than that, all we know of the language is that Max says it
feels like he knew how to read it once but has forgotten (River Dog)
and that Michael can understand it at times but does not know how
(SH). All three recognized the pendant symbol (which popped up again
on the ground [Into the Woods] and on the orbs).
Things almost remembered--of things repressed or forgotten...we are
getting a pattern here (whether we are talking about language or
relationships).
As for the book's location and how Tess knew it was there...how does
Tess know ANYTHING is the key issue here. She is so in control of
knowledge of our trio that it begs the question of where she is
getting the info to which she is privy.
LSS
wisters Member Posts:239 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 07:45 AM
Greetings
This is my first post on the sci-fi thread and while I have lurked
here often I have never shared my thoughts because frankly they have
usually already been stated.
However I feel like jumping in so here goes....
Just when I thought it wasn't going to be mentioned LSS you nailed
it. So OK, Tess completes the square. Why oh why then is she so
completely different from MMI?
The pod problem thing is an interesting angle but we have a ten year
gap from the time she "was Born" until she joins our pod squad. Ten
very formative years. She couldn't have been in a vacuum that entire
time.
If we look for a moment at the upbringing of Max and Is vs Michael
we can clearly see how nurture has significantly played a role in
their development. Max (and even Is) are more comfortable and
excepting of their human nature. While Michael is in a constant
struggle with his human nature. I will conceed that nature may have
a role here in that Michael shows even at the earliest stages an
implusiveness (ie being the first to leave the cave). Hereas Max
from the earliest is more contemplative in nature (ie his struggle
with following Micahel with Is or staying and waiting for Tess). But
I have to say that Michael's need for answers stems from his
isolation, his means of seeking answers is nature while his driving
need for answers is only part nature with a good measure of nurture
(or lack thereof) thrown into the mix.
OK, so this brings me back to Tess. What is driving her. Obviously
she has a highly developed sense of her alien nature much more so
than our pod squad, but WHY. We keep focusing on how she is
manipulating and setting into motin the exploration of MMI's alien
side but what has brought her to this point herself? Just who
exactly is Mr Harding. How did she come to be with him. Never a
mention or hint at a mother? Isn't he just a little too strange? I
would hazzard a guess that Tess knows so much more because she has
access to this information/history from someone/something.
So what is this something/someone? Two clear choices here. Nesado or
Government OR how about Nesado&Government. Not so clear really. How
many stories have aliens and government working together each with
their own agendas. If this is the case just how much does Tess
really know or is she too being manipulated.
Let me just state this. I love the direction that the stories are
taking. Yes I admit I am a complete dreamgirl, but MMI(T) having to
deal with their emerging "alieness" vs humaness is so compelling and
may lead to so many great things that how can it be discounted. LMA
will surely fit in. They are the human counterparts and cannot be
forgoten as they too will have a lot to deal with.
I hope that I haven't just reitterated things that have already been
stated in other threads, but if so, I apologize.
Now on a completely superfical note here...
HI LENEBA (big wave and smile from my corner of the playground)
Wisty
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-26-2000 09:18 AM
Bookworm, I agree with you about Michael leaving the cave first: it
seems just like him: "What are we waiting for?" while Max is
thinking "Let's not just jump into things, some of us aren't ready
yet." I like your ideas about continuity with the earlier story
line. Michael could have rapidly got separated from the other two,
and apparently everyone's memories of those early moments were soon
submerged.
Maybe the three who emerged from their pods at the same time didn't
have the option of waiting for Tess. Someone said she looked a lot
smaller and her pod looked different as if conditions weren't quite
right. But Max wants to at least consider whether they ought to wait
and stay together; that consideration doesn't seem to occur to
Michael. So it seems plausible that soon he's also separated from
Max and Isabel.
Wisty, good to see you. (I didn't mean to slight your opinion; your
post wasn't yet visible when I wrote the above.)
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-26-2000).]
October Junior Member Posts:22 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-26-2000 09:23 AM
To continue LSS'post regarding the finding of the book in the
library and it's symbol being the same as M/I's lawn symbol: the
fact that the map indicated that symbol to be the location of the
library, and the book was hidden in the library, then it wld follow
other artifacts (or whatever) may be located in the corresponding
locations in Roswell on the same map. Again, how Tess knows this is
a central question.
[This message has been edited by October (edited 04-26-2000).]
JanetMG Member Posts:176 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-26-2000 09:18 AM
I'm still leaning toward the idea of Tess' knowledge coming from
whomever raised her (my guess--alien aligned w/ or hiding in govt,
but not Nacedo), but another possibility occurred to me that I
thought was worth mentioning. It could come from her longer stay in
the pod. It may not have been her pod that malfunctioned. Perhaps
Michael's did, and his early awakening led to Isabel's and Max's,
but not Tess' for some reason. Or maybe Tess' pod simply was
programmed to give her more information
LSS Member Posts:789 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 09:46 AM
JanetMG--could you e-mail me? I would like to speak to you off line
about the SF threads and some interesting projects for the board
this summer while we wait for the fall season to kick in.
LSS
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-26-2000 10:13 AM
Roswellian astronomy seems to be partly fictional: much of it looks
familiar, but some things are shifted a little, apparently for the
sake of the story. Also, the mythological associations seem to be at
least as important as the astrophysics, again in the tradition of
storytelling. That's fine with me.
If anyone wants a comparison with ordinary astronomy, here's how it
looks to me so far. [And I would like to acknowledge a debt to H. A.
Rey and his book "The Stars" (subtitle "a new way to see them")
which turned me on to stargazing in the second grade. Houghton
Mifflin issued a paperback edition around 1980; I hope it's still
around.]
The part of the sky that Venus wanders across is the Zodiac, a belt
about 18 degrees wide encircling the earth near the equator. Since
Aries lies within the Zodiac (as Liz said) Venus passes through it
every year, although its path is a little different each time. So,
in the story, if the V is there in December (The Balance) and again
in April, and if Venus is involved both times, that's bending things
a little. At this time of year Aries passes overhead (a little south
of Roswell) around noon. So for us to still see it, barring an
eclipse, is bending things a little more. (Just as the storytellers
moved the crash into twilight instead of night, so we could see that
vision of it in SH. What other solution is there, for a visual
medium? And speaking of eclipses, I wouldn't be surprised if we see
one sometime, now that Michael has foreshadowed it by mentioning
eclipse burgers.)
Another small point of geometry: the chart Liz displayed for Aries
showed three main stars in a narrow V. This looks familiar. The
other V is wider and has five points of light; adding one more point
wouldn't altogether account for that. Also, the real Aries is
inconspicuous, whereas the V in the story dominates its patch of sky
as strongly as Orion. But I don't want to make a big deal about it;
I'm happy to just watch the story.
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-26-2000 11:59 AM
Something just struck me, don't know if it's already covered. Before
Michael activated the door, the cave seemed to be sealed, explaining
why the pods were not found earlier. But if the door was left open,
that leaves Tess vulnerable to discovery while still in her pod.
Maybe that's what happened.
Also, the way the cave is unsealed ("the stone rolled away"?) is
reminiscent of the Easter story. Interesting, how this year Easter
is later than usual, almost as late as it ever gets, so that this
episode comes just after Easter while Crazy and TLV come before Good
Friday.
Elliott Member Posts:828 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-26-2000 12:45 PM
Nemo: Interesting observation about the 'rolling away' of the rock
and the Easter timing of the episode's first airing.
But your comment reminded me of something that was emphasized for no
reason I could fathom. When Liz and Max are in the library and Liz
does the computer search which reveals 'Venus' in the heavens, we
clearly see the date as May 27, '00. I wondered what that could
mean? Did the arrangement of stars really resemble the pattern that
will be in the sky over the U.S. in mid to late May?
Was the date written in when this episode was meant to be the last
of the season (before the plot and pacing was accelerated)?
Given that most public schools in America end classes at the end of
June (in my experience) I wondered if they simply want the final
episode ("Destiny") to coincide with the end of school?
But then maybe it doesn't mean anything at all, especially since May
27 falls on a Saturday this year . . .
Leneba Member Posts:200 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 01:10 PM
I've been giving the issue of Max (and the others) dealing with his
alien vs. human sides a great deal of thought. In my last post, I
talked about the acceptance and integration of the two being
necessary for Max. Now I think that while the acceptance will be
critical, a full integration may never happen.
I was trying to think of an earthly parallel, and what immediately
came to mind was my own experience of having a bi-ethinic
background. (Others of multi-cultural, racial, or ethinc heritage,
please give your opinions. Maybe you feel I'm way off base!) I
suspect that Max feels most alien when he is around humans (L,M&A
excluded) and will feel most human when he is with aliens (M&I
excluded). While he may eventually be able to fully embrace each
aspect of himself, there will always be reminders that he is not
wholy part of one group or the other.
He shares this feeling of being caught between the two worlds with
Michael and Isabel (and, gulp! Tess--though I bet she feels far more
alien than human, as she's apparantly had some guidance in that
birthright), so their closeness is a given. With his human friends,
especially Liz, he is loved and accepted because intrinsically, he
is a beautiful, good and kind individual. They know and trust Max,
the person, regardless of his heritage. Although he fears learning
the truth behind his alien biology and the implications to his
relationships with the humans close to him, I don't think anything
he could discover, no matter how personally distasteful, will change
how they feel about him.
Max yearns to know more, but fears the discovery of his heritage
will change who he is. I would love to hear the thoughts of an
adoptee on this topic.
Several people had discussed the reason why Tess did not emerge with
the other three. I maintain my earlier theory of her pod "timer"
somehow malfunctioning. I think all four of them were meant to
emerge at the same time. Perhaps the three emerged earlier than they
were meant to. In any case, Tess may be biologically the same as
them, but she is still very different. The fact that someone who is
so physically different from our trio was cast in that role serves
as a deliberate visual reminder, IMO. She may end up sharing what
she knows with them, but that is a lot different than growing up
with the full knowledge of who and what you are. As Max said, they
were raised "human". I think Tess was raised "alien". She just
happened to learn human ways as a method of survival. Four Square
emphasized the importance of NATURE, and I'll bet as we learn more
about Tess in the upcoming episodes, we'll also see the power of
NURTURE.
A thought on the alien book:
I don't think the book had been there for long. Tess didn't act like
she was seeing it for the first time. I'll bet that there is some
connection between the symbol on the book and the fact that Michael
burned the same symbol into the library lawn. Did Nasedo plant the
book shortly after the lawn burning? It probably wasn't Tess as she
needed help to get up that high to retrieve it.
Nemo, thanks for the astronomy lessons. You put a technically
complicated set of facts into an easy-to-follow summary and it's
much appreciated. I'm glad we can choose to ignore some creative
deviation from reality on the part of the writers and still enjoy
the show!
Wisters--*big wave back*!
wisters Member Posts:239 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 03:19 PM
Elliot, excellent catch on the date. I noted that too on the
bloopers thread. What you said about it being intended as the season
finale is an excellent assumptiona and I am going with that for now.
Nice catch on that the fact that it is a Saturady. I noted that as
well, in fact it is the Saturday of Memorial Day weekend.
Leneba, I had a different message here a little while ago because
your post had not appeared. I come back and here it is. Strange,
very strange. Now I must give it some thought and I will respond
soon
Nothing new to add at this time, but should anything else be sparked
I will be back.
Wisty
[This message has been edited by wisters (edited 04-26-2000).]
MEP Member Posts:55 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-26-2000 03:27 PM
I couldn't get on this board all day yesterday, but at least that
gave me the opportunity to watch "4Square" again.
About the constellation: I think a parallel has definitely been
drawn between the aliens and the alleged Aries configuration. When I
first saw the original Aries pattern I thought that it was three
stars, representing our three aliens, but I soon realized that after
Venus was added there were five. So I looked again and noticed that
in the lower/left corner at the base of the [isosceles] triangle
there were actually two stars, very close together (Michael and
Isabel?). So we have four, but perfect symmetry would require one
more in the other corner. Then Venus/Tess comes in (to just the
right spot, the upper/right corner) and completes the V-shape - now
we have five stars, four of which form a quadrilateral (not quite a
square, but close enough) while the fifth is the "point" of the
triangle (I can only assume that's supposed to be Nasedo - five
stars... five aliens). I also think it's significant that Venus
looks slightly different than the other stars (it's less bright and
bluish rather than reddish, not to mention that it IS a planet),
mirroring the fact that Tess doesn't quite fit in with the other
three (which really bugged me in TLV, but now I'm starting to think
there must be a reason behind it).
Now, what does this mean? Are the aliens REALLY into astrology (as a
total sceptic, may I just say "Ick!" to that)? How is it possible
that astronomical occurences should mirror the events surrounding
our aliens? I don't have any answers yet and I'd rather not
speculate. However, this does indicate to me that Tess's mere
proximity is supposed to start (restore?) a predetermined chain of
events (I no longer think that she is deliberately "doing things" to
them) - it's "written in the stars", as it were.
But if the emergence of the "alien side" and the associated memories
requires Tess' presence, wouldn't our aliens have had these memories
and awareness all along, had they not been separated from her (which
would have made a HUGE difference in their lives)? Wasn't THAT how
things were "meant to be"? Didn't Max's decision to leave Tess
behind introduce randomness into the "4sq system", which then
allowed it to move farther and farther away from its original
equilibrium and become less predictable? I find it difficult to
reconcile the implacability suggested by the stars/aliens parallel
with the fact that SOMETHING seems to have gone wrong in the cave
(making Tess different?) and my sense that, subsequently, things
were not as they should have been.
I guess it's possible that this IS how everything was meant to
unfold from the start, but WHY??? It makes no sense to allow our
trio to be separated from Tess and raised human and then later
expect them to act like none of that ever happened. Unless, of
course, this isn't really about two pairs of aliens propagating the
species. Maybe Tess doesn't know the truth either and the book is,
if not an outright lie, at least incomplete. Maybe the combination
of "alien-ness" and humanity (and the effect that leaving Tess out
for a while has on the whole group) is exactly what is required for
future events to take a certain course (damn, I wish I could bring
up spoilers!). Talk about cruel fate! And if this is indeed the
case, then even the human/alien relationships could be part of the
"plan".
And I still wonder why the configuration that has supposedly only
fallen into place now was shown above Liz's head at the end of "The
Balance"??!!
LSS Member Posts:789 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 03:32 PM
Leneba:
I'm an adoptee but will have to get back with you as my desk has
finally threated to swallow all work unless cleared soon!
But I did want to say how insightful I found your comments that Max
will have to come to grips with both aspects of who he is -- but
there will always be an inherent tension in this. For ultimately he
is neither 100% alien or 100% human. Poor Max.
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-26-2000).]
GraceKel Member Posts:459 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-26-2000 03:40 PM
Does anyone else see any significance to Tess telling Kyle she was
looking for a book on ANCIENT LANGUAGES-and in Blind Date Doug
Shellow was suppose to be studying ANCIENT LANGUAGES to become an
archeologist? Also that is when M&I signaled Nasedo who had already
sent a message to them he was back in "INTO THE WOODS" -Liz started
having visions of the universe at the end of BLIND DATE! As for the
book-I think it is going to be a fake-that is why Tess needed to see
pictures of Max and Isabel as children to create that fake destiny
for someone's ulterior motives! As for Michaels Nasedo could have
gotten pics from Hank b4 he killed him! I think there is definite
manipulation going on here-now I am not saying Tess by herself and
she may be a victim of who brought her up and the lies she's been
fed but it is just a feeling I have. Michael did not have a vision
of that Pulman Ranch til Tess came to the window-and the whole
whispering in someone's ear well it seems so sinister and the weird
looks in TLV between Mr Harding and Tess. Something is not right. Or
maybe they are true alien breed and don't want the POD SQUAD mixing
with humans-racism. Just a few thoughts anybody?
Jufemme Junior Member Posts:13 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-26-2000 08:30 PM
hey
a warm welcome to the delurkers. this thread snagged you too, i see
LSS-
i've always been a fan of the dangerous underdog. i prefer the idea
of michael as the arrogant impulsive *important* one, so all those
scenes of michael in the right and max in the wrong were greatly
enjoyed
that *michael* could be the great leader savior? reasons for this
include: michael has always had *one* goal in mind- he knows what he
wants. max has grown incredibly fickle- what good is a leader who
constantly doubts himself? michael is more ruthless- more willing to
make sacrifices (oft times unecesarry). it's quite possible that
michael is more powerful- more power is sometimes harder to control.
then again, it could be isabel and everyone'd be thrown for a loop
has anyone noticed that the group has become rather cult-ish?
they're *plotting* against someone now.
about tess and how long she has had human contact: i'd say at least
7 yrs. if one didn't know that she was alien, one wouldn't think she
was anything other than an american teenage girl. the reason i say 7
yrs is because i'm originally from moscow and it has taken me that
long to fully assimilate; both superficially and internally. i've
lived in california for 10 yrs and 3 yrs ago i still had minor
differences. while this is a tv show and they have to make everyone
on it 'cool', the fact still remains. tess is very americanized, not
to mention humanized (is that a word?).
on another, mundane and annoying topic: what 's up with the board? i
couldn't access the board from *any* network, and now there's a
discrepancy between it and real time.
LSS Member Posts:789 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 09:05 PM
Jufemme...you wrote:
"i've always been a fan of the dangerous underdog. i prefer the idea
of michael as the arrogant impulsive *important* one, so all those
scenes of michael in the right and max in the wrong were greatly
enjoyed
that *michael* could be the great leader savior? reasons for this
include: michael has always had *one* goal in mind- he knows what he
wants. max has grown incredibly fickle- what good is a leader who
constantly doubts himself? michael is more ruthless- more willing to
make sacrifices (oft times unecesarry). it's quite possible that
michael is more powerful- more power is sometimes harder to control.
then again, it could be isabel and everyone'd be thrown for a loop "
Do I think that Michael is the natural leader of this group? No
actually I don't. Throughout the entire series he has deferred to
Max. Or else he has relied on Max to rescue him. Even during TLV
when he did take control for a moment, as soon as Max arrived at
Tess' house the leadership passed back to Max.
But I do think that you are on to something--I think that should
Michael ever think that Max is not worthy as leader, that Michael
would forge ahead by himself. We saw this in SH when Michael goes to
the library and doesn't tell Max. Or in 285 South, when Michael goes
off in Maria's car.
To be a good leader requires more than power--it requires
compassion. I have been struck with how little compassion Michael
has recently shown toward Max. In ID Max was more compassionate
toward Michael (remember that last trailer scene) then Michael was
ever compassionate toward Max in TLV (that bathroom scene was
painful to watch).
Michael's quest for knowledge at any cost, can destroy him as well
as save him. We will have to wait and see where this search will
take him.
LSS
JanetMG Member Posts:176 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-26-2000 09:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Leneba:
Max yearns to know more, but fears the discovery of his heritage
will change who he is. I would love to hear the thoughts of an
adoptee on this topic.
I was adopted as a baby, and had the opportunity to find out about
my biological parents when I was 28. Growing up, a part of me always
wanted to know who my biological parents were & what had happened,
but I also liked the freedom of not knowing. When I found out that
BioDad was looking for me, I wasn't really worried that "knowing"
would change who I was. I was more worried about its possible effect
on my relationship with my parents (would they be hurt or feel like
they weren't "parents enough" for me). To be honest, I have always
wondered more about the nurture angle--who I would be if I had been
adopted by a different family.
[Rereading this tonight, I apologize for my rambling from last
night. I tried to edit out the less salient points.]
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 04-27-2000).]
LAWard Member Posts:91 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-26-2000 09:26 PM
First off let me say, wow! I really like this thread. Very thought
provoking.
A few comments about some of the topics mentioned.
I liked the way someone pointed out that the flashes of memory have
coincided with the aliens allowing emotional barriers to fall. I
hadn't thought of that, but now that it has been pointed out, it
seems to fit quite well.
Other points that interested me:
The thing which struck me about Venus in the constellation is that
for that configuartion wouldn't it have to be viewed from Earth?
Would it ever achieve that exact configuation from another vantage
point? So whatever the constellation means or references it in some
ways has to reference *here*--and for that matter it has to
reference *now* because how often would the constellation and the
planet actually make that configuration from the vantage point of
Earth...especially since 1947?
Which sort of brings me to the question of the "alien/human" thing.
It seems to me that while nature and nurture come into it, it's more
than that. M,M,&I are human as well as alien because they are just
too human. They don't shape shift. In most visible ways they appear
human. There has to be some reason for that (though exactly what the
reason may be is difficult to guess)so going along the lines that
they are at least partly human, perhaps it's not just a question of
nature/nurture but a struggle of mind vs. heart. They know what they
are "supposed" to want...but by the time they knew or "remembered"
this, their hearts are already elsewhere. I liked someone's point
about the insidiousness of the inflexible pairing off. The
pre-destination of it. It's as if the emotion, the love doesn't come
into it. It's structured, planned. It's an intellectualized pairing
of couples not the emotion of falling in love which is what their
hearts have done with Liz, Maria, and Alex. So in many ways it seems
to be setting up a (alien/predestined)intellect vs.
(human/unpredictable)emotion struggle.(Bear with me... these aren't
fully developed thoughts but simple musings.)
And finally the other point someone brought up about the time
anomolies and the "fated to be" and also mentioned that maybe one of
the "flashbacks" might actually seeing something that has yet to
happen brings up the question of what is "fate".... what is fate
based on? Time? What has been? What will be?(Okay, I'm wandering and
I'm confusing myself :-) But on the question of fate and
predestination, doesn't predestination's "pre-" imply "before
now"... Before the crash, before the podding, doesn't that make it
an alien predestination? M,M,&I have lived an entire human life
since the predestination (well at least the childhood of a human
life). They aren't the same beings who were directed and predestined
to be paired off. Do their experiences on earth then change the
predestination? And if the "pod" process made aliens at least
somewhat human...might that very humanization have short circuited
everything that had been decided, chosen, expected, or believed by
them before they were humanized and given that factor of human
emotional unpredictability? Whatever was logically predestined for
the pre-podded alien may be completely wrong for the humanized
teenager.
(And if this makes any sense when it's posted I'll be surprised.
Sorry to ramble. As is probably clear, I'm thinking this up as I go
along. :-)
Kate6058 Member Posts:1127 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-26-2000 09:36 PM
Hello everyone.
5-27-00... yes, I noticed that Saturday also... it's the date of my
graduation, and it jumped off the screen at me.
I'm not exactly sure what I want to say about everything that went
on in Four Square. I posted on the Constructive Criticsm of Tess
thread about why I feel dislike her... I feel she is a threat to the
humanity of these characters, which is obviously true. That's not
really her fault, and it was inevitable that this would happen...
but this quest that Max is going to take next season, I really wish
it wouldn't so directly depend on Tess.
I will just always see the human being the bigger part of Max, no
matter what information Tess presents to him. I think that the
humanness she is going to eventually confront (as much as I don't
like the fact that she's going to have to "release" Max, I think she
will...) is going to be different from the genuine emotions MM&I and
every other human raised on earth in this society feel. If it's not
any different... than what is going to make Max's decision
monumental? For the love story of Max and Liz to continue to be so
special to some of us, it's going to have to be more than his
decision between two extremes...
I am still a huge fan of the changed Liz idea (from the inital
healing), but doesn't it seem like she has been reduced to 100%
human girl, the polar opposite of Tess? I feel like bringing up the
idea that she was changed wouldn't matter at this point. I am
expecting Max to the Max and White Room to bring us more on Max and
Liz... but what is the key to him keeping her?
How did Max fall completely in love with Liz at eight years old?
What happened there? Was it just an extraordinary human act or
something much more than that? I'd like to think it was much more...
because I guess that could happen to an 8 year old, but not to one
who'd (probably) never been around other kids other than his sister,
who was aware of his "different" origin, and who had just recently
learned to talk.
I suppose I'm speaking in defense of Liz, or I'm searching for
something to hold on to in support of Liz... what is it? I think
there has to be something...
[This message has been edited by Kate6058 (edited 04-26-2000).]
scullars Junior Member Posts:2 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-26-2000 09:46 PM
Hi, new poster here. Just want to share my thoughts on Four Square.
Here goes: I think Tess was correct about the book showing the
destiny of the four young aliens. I think that their race is paired
up from birth and have a psychic connection with one another.
Probably the children were sent down to earth to integrate (and
thereby invade) society, but they were only meant to mate with each
other eventually. The crash however, circumvented their initial
destiny. Maybe the adults were killed...or maybe Nasado was the
overseeing adult on that particular flight and he sequested the
children away until they would "awaken" and then he was supposed to
come back to get them. He got diverted somehow, and the children
awakened and were found by human adults.
Because Tess had not awakened, the other three became separated from
her, and she was later found and adopted by another (who,
ironically, may very well be the alien hunter and does not know his
adopted daughter is an alien). Or it could be that her "father" is
Nasado, and knows the alien destiny of the four and is now trying to
set it right again. So he brings Tess to the other three, which sets
off psychic dreams of what should have been.
But Nasado didn't count on (and may not be very pleased with) the
fact that the alien children were raised as humans and now have
human sensibilities, which have lead them to fall in love with
actual humans. Thus their original destiny has been diverted; but
another destiny has taken its place. Max says that he somehow feels
that he and Liz were meant for one another. And looking at the blurb
for the next episode, I suspect Nasado is going to now try to break
up these alien/human pairings and "set things right". It looked
ominous for Liz when the fake Max says that he isn't Max. Again, I
think it's Nasado.
As for Isabel's "pregnancy", Tess was simply showing her what would
have/should have been. The psychic mating of her and Michael have
now manifested itself in her oversolicitous caring of Michael and
his situation. As for sexual/asexual reproduction, I have a theory:
the embryo/fetus starts out in the female alien, who then "gives
birth" to a chrysillis (like a butterfly pod) from which a young
child (around 5) will emerge. Which leads one to wander what would
happen if a human/alien pairing resulted in a pregnancy. If the
human is female (Liz/Maria), will she give birth to a pod? Most
likely, if the female is alien, this would be the case (Isabel),
which would freak the heck out of Alex.
Well, those are my theories. Will be interested in seeing how
correct they may be in the coming episodes.
JanetMG Member Posts:176 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-27-2000 04:59 AM
Just a couple of points:
LAWard said, "I liked someone's point about the insidiousness of the
inflexible pairing off. The pre-destination of it. It's as if the
emotion, the love doesn't come into it. It's structured, planned.
It's an intellectualized pairing of couples not the emotion of
falling in love "
I believe that this is a fairly accurate description of how marriage
was treated for most of human history. I'd probably add that
economic considerations were very important, which seems an even
colder reason than some biological imperative (Matchmaker,
Matchmaker, make me a match . . .).
Kate--Congrats on graduation! Somehow, I just can't get too worried
about M&L. 4Sq seems to have created some additional
obstacles--hints at a greater "chemistry" between M&T, seemingly
confirms that M&T could have children while we still don't know
whether M&L could, destiny (and perhaps duty) points to T, (although
Max said fate brought him to L), and M&I could actually share the
same vision, which arguably is a deeper connection than M&L's
ability to see each other's past (the laran/headblind issue from
Darkover).
Somehow I still believe M&L will end up together--even if only to
drive home a point about free will or the fact that love is
powerful, but isn't always logical (or about reproduction).
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 04-27-2000).]
Elliott Member Posts:828 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-27-2000 08:05 AM
JanetMG: Your point about marriage is exactly right. I have thought
for a while that the 'choice' facing Max, Isabel and Michael was
going to be akin to that of immigrants to America facing a choice
between the entrenched customs of the Old World and the freedom of
choice of the New World -- America. Given that, I don't think we
have to think too hard about what is going to win out. On American
TV I think you can count on 'tradition' getting drubbed while 'free
will' (and especially free love) wins hands down.
Can I now address the issue of there apparently only being four
aliens rigidly paired off for reproduction? Of course we don't yet
know the extent of the alien plan for reproduction and its place in
the overall alien 'mission' on our planet. But realistically, how
much of a difference could just these four kids make, especially
when their growth and maturation is as slow as it is for humans?
Even if Max and Tess and Isabel and Michael begin to reproduce
immediately (which I think we all feel they will not do) how many
kids could they have and how much of a difference could those few
make to the mission, whatever it may be?
Doesn't this suggest that whatever the specific roles that M, I, M &
T have in this scheme, that there must be others (preferably many
others) of their race on Earth to make a difference? Or are their
powers potentially so vast that these four could effect a dramatic
change on this planet as well as their own? Are they merely secret
agents of a type, pressed into service to glean information? That
just seems a bit amorphous and anti-climactic to me . . .
GraceKel Member Posts:459 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-27-2000 09:11 AM
Doesn't anyone wonder why Tess was looking at pictures of Max and
Isabel growing up? If not for her fake book then what? Are you
telling me they threw that in there for no reason? And again I hope
someone answers this time-Tess says looking for a book on ANCIENT
LANGUAGES and Doug was studying ANCIENT LANGUAGES does anyone see a
connection here besides me?
Jufemme Junior Member Posts:13 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-27-2000 09:37 AM
hey
regarding ancient languages-
i think it's safe to assume that MMIT's race is further advanced
than humanity and therefore has been around longer. their language
is probably simply older than anything on earth. that is the most
literal take. the other possibility is that the book tess got has
something to do with determining soul mates, so love (or the alien
biological imperative equivalent) is the 'ancient language.' either
way, i don't think that hint was terribly important in the grand
scheme of things.
why tess has pics of max: maybe she needs pics to dreamwalk, like
isabel. she's also convinced they're soulmates and is obsessive- so
she takes pictures of her man (creepy, kinda).
on the topic of pictures... what was valenti doing with that
camera?!
Elliott Member Posts:828 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-27-2000 10:28 AM
GraceKel: Ever since "Blind Date" you and others have mentioned
this. I think it may just be the writers' way of setting up key
words and motifs, so that as they play out in later episodes, we
have a sense that they are inevitable, and that we may have heard
something like that before, and are now discovering the solution.
Kind of like subliminal advertising.
As to whether we are literally to believe that Doug Shelloe (Liz's
blind date in that episode) is an alien or is somehow affilitated
with Tess or Nasedo or the FBI -- who knows? Frankly, I think it
would be extremely far-fetched. What would his reason have been for
dating Liz under those circumstances, unless it was to learn more
about Max? But he seemed more interested in talking about himself. I
just don't see it. Sometimes a blind date is just a blind date.
scullars Junior Member Posts:2 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-27-2000 10:33 AM
Regarding there only being four to pair off, I think that there were
probably more landings and pods grown throughout the world, with the
aliens pairing off. I believe that MMI are going to find out that
there is now a whole race of aliens integrated with the rest of
society, "blended in" so well, that no one would be able to detect
them. Who knows, but their real "parents" might actually be alive on
earth, waiting for some sort of reunion. At the moment, MMI are
separated from the rest, and their isolation has humanized them.
Probably the other "pod children" were raised by their original
alien parents and aren't schizophrenic, that is, being alien with
human emotions and sensibilities. Tess is obviously more in tune
with her alien self, moreso than the other three.
JanetMG Member Posts:176 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-27-2000 10:38 AM
Hi GraceKel--As for the pictures, I like the idea that she faked the
book, but there could be other possibilities. Maybe Tess wants to
know more about how they were raised to understand their reactions
to her (e.g., why they're following her around, why they are
seemingly unaware of and/or denying their destiny). Maybe she just
wanted to freak Isabel out. Maybe, like Valenti's conversations
w/Mom, she was looking for additional clues to verify that they were
aliens.
As for the ancient languages, I think you've pointed out an
interesting connection--kind of like Grandma Parker's work on
Navahoes. It'll be interesting to see if the writers follow up on
it.
Elliott--I was wondering about the purpose angle on my way to work.
As you pointed out, it's a little hard to see what difference the
four them could make. On the other hand, given the powers we've seen
and evidence of technology far beyond ours, I'm not sure what any
other aliens wanting to conquer or change earth are waiting for if
there are vast numbers of them. I'm not fond of the secret agent
idea either, for the same reasons you expressed. I haven't thought
about it much (& can't right now), but what immediately comes to
mind is your original messianic idea. A prophesied one who will lead
a downtrodden group against a stronger oppressor(usually
successfully--I know this is way too simplistic, but you could say
Christianity and Judaism are separated in part by differing
definitions of success). Perhaps mankind is the unwitting/potential
downtrodden group. Maybe Max's race is (or a faction of it) and
another species is out there (or a stronger faction) and the four
were hidden here until the prophesied time comes. The power of the
prophecy (as inspiration alone even without getting into fate or
destiny) enhances the importance of the few chosen ones.
Finally, a reference to Roswell in an article I found that I thought
this group might enjoy:
Living
EDUCATION BUILDING
Hayley Kaufman
04/26/2000
The Boston Globe
THIRD
Page F3
(Copyright 2000)
* * *
Dolphin twilight
OK, so maybe the only time you've heard the term shape-shifter is
during " Roswell ," that WB show you've taken to watching when "Ally
McBeal" is a rerun. But it turns out that shape-shifters are part of
many cultural mythologies. To locals of the Amazon Valley, for
example, pink dolphins can magically change into human form, steal
your soul, and drag it down to a watery underworld. What, you've
never heard of pink dolphins? OK, Go! hadn't either, but it turns
out they are very real, if rare, creatures. In her new book,
"Journey of the Pink Dolphins," naturalist Sy Montgomery traces the
pink dolphins' evolution and the myths that surround them. She reads
from the book (and also shows slides) tonight at 7 p.m. at the MSPCA
Headquarters. Free.
MEP Member Posts:55 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-27-2000 01:43 PM
I'm still stuck on the "destiny" theme, which seems to play a MAJOR
role in future episodes. I just hope that my posts on the subject
aren't too muddled.
I tend to differentiate (just my personal distinction) between
"destiny" and "fate," although I don't not always use them as
carefully as I should. To me, "fate" simply implies the absence of
free will - given a stimulus, a certain reaction will inevitably
take place, but randomness is still possible in terms of which
stimulus actually occurs. With "destiny" however, there is a
suggestion of volition, of purpose - "destined" things happen
according to a plan, neither cause nor effect are random (yes,
infinite regression is a problem here - eventually one must get to a
"prima causa"). Now, in order to have such a plan on a large scale,
there must be an agency (like God) capable of knowing a priori, or
at least calculating, all possible consequences and maybe shaping
the course of events in order to get a particular result (let me
just make it clear that I'm inclined to believe in "fate", but not
in "destiny").
Several things in "Four Square" and, in retrospect, TLV
(precognition, the surreal, "irrational" passage of time, their
ability to "open" walls - inter-dimensional doors?) lead me to think
that the writers are suggesting that the aliens can experience
time/space differently than we do. Exactly how far they'll go with
this, I don't know. But, if they are able to see into the future (at
least in their pure form, since it's becoming increasingly clear
that "our" aliens are hybrids), then they know what causal chain
leads to what events and can prophesize. Thus, we could talk
meaningfully about "destiny" in terms of the aliens' plans and
purposes even if there is no all-encompassing "master plan".
One question I have is about the extent of this clairvoyance: would
they just "see" one time-line, or would they be able to perceive
many alternate causal chains and choose the one that best suits
their purpose? Can they really influence events? How inflexible and
necessary is causality and, therefore, the future? CAN there be any
randomness or must everything already be part of the plan?
Interestingly enough, these are some of the same questions that the
V-shaped constellation elicited from me.
Another thing is, if the aliens can indeed "move" between dimensions
(Tess at the library and Michael at the cave - I really got the
impression there that what he did was open an inter-dimensional
portal of some sort, which would mean that the cave with the pods is
not technically on earth) what are we to make of the space-travel
images in Liz's vision in SH? Is it possible that they really came
from Nasedo and they were "fake", despite the fact that they did
lead to the orb? What exactly WAS the "crash"?
Am I just reading too much into this?
MEP Member Posts:55 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-27-2000 02:37 PM
Zut alors!
[This message has been edited by MEP (edited 04-27-2000).]
SF Member Posts:84 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-27-2000 08:35 PM
Hi All. Iíve been enjoying all the posts as usual. Iíve also been
thinking about why there are just 4 of them. JanetMG and Elliot I
agree that 4 individuals is just too few for a colonization
strategy, although scullars chrysalis idea is quiet ingenious, but,
as visions of bloated queen ants, bees and termites float through my
mind, I have to pity Iz and Tess.
If there are many other aliens on earth, I find it difficult to
believe that they all had a similar pod emergence as our trio. Three
or four little naked 6 year olds turning up in isolated areas all
over the world should have attracted some attention ... Or, as
JanetMG said, if there are a lot of them, and they have some pretty
cool powers, why havenít they taken over the earth. Iím convinced
the quartet is special and that they have a purpose, but itís an
alien purpose.
Elliot I remember you responding to someone (Iím sorry I canít
remember whom) on the TLV thread about how their powers and
abilities are specific to each one of them, and that maybe together
theyíre capable of doing something that they would not be able to
accomplish alone. Iím not quite sure where to go with that idea, but
I like it. Like JanetMG, your messianic idea seems to be ringing the
most true. Iím seeing huge parallels to Herbertís Dune series here.
What if MMIT were hidden as children (by the good guys) to protect
them from the "alien bad guys." Why? Because of their powers? All of
their kind could have them. Because of their blood lines? That would
be something unique to them.
During FS I was struck by the fact that the "X" connecting the pods
is never alluded to except in the map sequences. The final scene
where M T face M I, the diagonals of the X connect M to M, and T to
I when the pod glyph is superimposed on them. I canít come up with
any reason for that, but with Isabelís visions of pregnancy, the X
symbol could be read as a breeding pedigree diagram. Rosta referred
to the grail child in her post and mentioned bloodlines. If we take
a Dune-like scenario, the good guys are breeding for something
specific. The plan, hide the four, have each couple have a child, MI
a little boy, MT a little girl, and then the boy and girlís progeny
is THE one. The alien messiah, a geo-political figure who endís
strife in their part of the galaxy. When s/heís an adult, the good
guys, or maybe just the ones who hatched the plan, bring him/her
back to their world, and reinstate her/him as ruler. BUT Max is
already THE one; sounds like Paul Artreides, doesnít it. Of course,
the above is pure speculation, and we shouldnít forget the bad grail
child idea, i.e., Mordred.
Having 2 adult aliens with different agendas could explain some of
the conflicting information the trio have been getting. What if one
set of information is the truth, and another set is misinformation.
In one of the visions in TLV, it looked like a goopy adult alien
figure was standing next to Tessís pod. I think this is Ed Harding.
Obviously the timing for the stasis chambers wasnít really well
synchronized. Michael first, he went exploring (unless that memory
happened after he left IM), then Isabel, and Max shortly thereafter,
then the adult (unless itís actually Max - need to check), and
lastly T. The question is, is the adult Nacedo, who was living near
Riverdogís people in 1959, killed Hubbleís wife (1972), buried the
space potatoe, made the book and hid it in the library? Why would
Nacedo go back into a stasis chamber until 1989 (quartet emergence)?
If Nacedo and Ed are aliens, but not the same person, was Ed in
stasis until the í89 emergence. Did Nacedo know about him? If they
all came on the crashed ship, and Nacedo moved all the pods, then
youíed think he does. But what if the crash was a decoy while they
engineered the cave the pods were hidden in. Maybe Ed was hiding in
the cave, and heís part of an opposing faction. He took and raised
Tess, while Nacedo kept an eye on the trio. Well at this point Iím
just blathering on, it doesnít seem to hold together.
Ed is not Alien Hunter Pierce. If he were involved with the FBI he
wouldnít have taken the camera to Valenti. He also seemed unaware of
the sweep team, of course he could have lied to Valenti. Maybe the
sweep team werenít checking the house for bugs, but they were
actually working with Pierce, who suspects Ed and Tess, and they
were bugging the house. The fact that they have soldier boy guarding
the door is difficult to explain. So, was the guy with the umbrella
at the park one of Pierceís men, or Nacedo? Iím betting the former,
but have no evidence either way.
I love all the posts that have dealt with alien/predestination vs
human/free will. I just wanted to make a comment about the
precognitive visions. We now know that some of Maxís visions from
last week were precognitive, but not all the vision came true. Iím a
big fan of the multiple futures idea, that each decision you make
directs you down one path or another. So even though Max can see a
vision of the future, it may not be his future reality. Their alien
future may be predestined, but their future is not immutable. The
same is true of M&Iís visions.
MEP, I loved your post on "temporal anomalies." When Is said Tess
had done something to her, and sheíed lost time, I was struck by an
analogy to the Midwich Cuckoos - Wyndham. Maybe Tess started the
baby growing... parthenogenesis/gynogenesis. Though Iím still not
convinced the pregnancy is reality.
One last thought before I call it quits. I agree that Michael
leaving the cave was impulsive, but he also had the knowledge to
make the hand appear. Because Michael was able to read the map, and
figure out the whole Aries thing by himself in BD, Iíve dubbed him
the Navigator. Of the four aliens he appears to be the brightest,
itís as though intellectually heís ahead of the other three, but
socially heís so far behind them. What would Michael have been if
heíed been raised in a loving home?
MEP, Iíve slowly been writing my post offline, and when I went
online to post it I saw your post. Weíre thinking along very similar
lines. Yours seem much better articulated than mine, but the ideas
are very similar. You wrote:
"One question I have is about the extent of this clairvoyance: would
they just "see" one time-line, or would they be able to perceive
many alternate causal chains and choose the one that best suits
their purpose?" We havenít yet seen them see alterante time lines.
"Can they really influence events?" Doesnít choice influence events.
Just the fact that they have prescient knowledge changes things. Can
they do it consciously? That would take their being able to see
multiple futures.
"How inflexible and necessary is causality and, therefore, the
future? CAN there be any randomness or must everything already be
part of the plan? Interestingly enough, these are some of the same
questions that the V-shaped constellation elicited from me." Iíve
never bought the future being immutable, but is it in the story? Iíd
say the human characters have already added randomness, as has their
human upbringing. LA Ward posted my question about the V-shaped
constellation. Theyíre not even first generation earthlings, yet
this constellation causes them to reach their sexual maturity. Seems
odd.
[This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-27-2000).]
MEP Member Posts:55 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-28-2000 12:37 AM
I've read a few comments which helped me clarify some of my thoughts
(or so I think).
1) On necessity: I think my assumption was that precognition
requires a blurring of the distinction between past, present and
future - for a being capable of this, time would not be linear and
would have no "arrow", so to speak. And, maybe my logic is
fallacious, but wouldn't that mean that past and future are equally
immutable? In that context, prescience might not really change
anything (we know the past, but can do nothing to change it, we have
no choice about it). And if there is any randomness it's only in the
sense that it serves no one's purpose - but it's still part of
inescapable causal chain.
If everything is unchangeable, though, then deliberation, purpose,
volition, etc. can still exist, only... they become quite irrelevant
(objectively speaking). The aliens can only play out a future that
they already know. In fact, this may be why I started thinking about
alternate realities as a paradox-free way out. But SF is quite
right, there has been no indication so far that they have the
ability to "see" alternate realities and choose between them and
that seems necessary if they are to consciously change the course of
events. Plus, that's probably not even a wise direction to take with
the show - it would make things much too complicated.
That being said, it may well be that my initial assumption about
what precognition requires is wrong. Maybe someone can help me
conceptualize it in a different manner.
2) Until this episode I always assumed that the human upbringing and
love-interests had, in fact, introduced randomness into the alien
"plan," whatever it may be. It was the parallel I saw between our
little alien group and the Aries configuration that first made me
question that - if the stars mirrored (caused?) our trio's reunion
with Tess, it seems that their initial separation was also "meant to
be" (after all, that configuration could have been accurately
predicted ages ago) and that made me wonder if everything else
in-between could be part of the "plan" as well. My later musings on
precognition led me in the same direction. Of course, these are just
my (possibly misguided) thoughts - it's still very unclear what the
writers will do with all of this. And I certainly have no idea what
to make of the fact that there is a constellation/alien connection
in the first place (why? how?).
I guess I AM, in fact, questioning the notion of free-will (I often
wonder if our belief in it is strictly a result of our inability to
grasp the network of cause and effect relations in its full
complexity) and my impression is that, through the alien metaphor,
the writers are doing the same (I'm probably just projecting because
this has hit a nerve with me).
SF - what is "the Midwich Cuckoos - Wyndham"? Is it a reference I
would miss because of growing up in Europe?
42
Member Posts:25 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-28-2000 12:49 AM
I'm afraid this isn't up to the lofty levels of discourse in this
thread, but: I haven't seen any need to reconcile the different
versions of "what happened the day we emerged". The previous
versions have been presented from an omniscient view, while Four
Square's version is just a memory...and I believe a totally false
one planted by Nacemo/Tess. What better way to convince Max (and
through him, convince the others) that she is not Nacemo?
Now, I admit that while this seemed more logical, it also didn't
seem in line with the way Hollywood writes...you always start out
deceived and end up knowing the truth in fiction, while in reality
you often start out knowing the truth and end up deceived.
But you know what convinced me that even the writers couldn't intend
this memory to be true? It was that CURL in the pod-Tess's hair.
What could that possibly be but a rather clumsy attempt to create a
memory of someone who "looked like" Tess in an artificial memory?
sterlingsilver Member Posts:272 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-28-2000 03:00 AM
I originally tried to post this afternoon, but my server kicked me
off. So this is OT from MEP and SFís interesting destiny ideas, but
. . .
Gracekel: Yes yes yes! You have hit on an idea that brings me some
peace of mind. Maybe Tess manipulated Mrs. Evans into showing her
the pictures of Max and Isabel as children, to help her "create" the
pod-hatching sequence in Max's mind. And perhaps the destiny book as
well. It would explain the time-warp dilemma between M/T's midnight
tryst at the rock, and the daytime after Max's vision is over - Tess
masterminded the whole thing and planted this conflicting "memory"
into his head (to induce guilt?). Inexplicably missing moments of
time (as Isabel suggested) don't happen with their own personal
flashbacks. Heck, maybe even the reason that little Isabel looks
different than Max's real memory of that night is because Tess only
saw pictures of Isabel several months after being adopted into the
Evans home, with the naturally changing longer, lighter hair tones.
Unlikely, maybe, but it makes me a happy girl.
The more I think about this, the more the evidence is piling up
against Tess on the visions issue. Even with all the new shift of
focus onto the role of biology in the aliens' new destiny storyline,
I remain convinced that Tess (probably along with Nasedo) is the
perpetrator. At this point, it would even seem ludicrous for the
writers to pin it all on physiology in the future, should they try
to do so when they likely attempt to redeem Tess for us.
Let me briefly recap what some of you have been singing since TLV,
and add some of my own observations. One of the key ideas here is
that none of the Tess visions (except for the M/T kiss) occurred
through physical contact as all others have. Furthermore, the
legitimacy of those M/L visions (especially the flashbacks) is
established and reinforced by the character's ability to *feel* what
the other was feeling during those moments. Instead, Max is only
upset, confused, and angered by the Tess visions; he seems to know
intrinsically that they are induced and fabricated by her,
especially the sexual fantasies. Add in the fact that she clearly
knows more about their nature as aliens than they do, and itís not
surprising that she would be able to use these more complex powers.
And there's no doubt about those. I don't believe for a second that
the lab scene came out of Mr. "We Saw Into Each Others' Souls" head.
No way. In addition, contrast the rain scene to the Michael/Isabel
scene by the window following the dreams. You could almost see
invisible Tess strings drawing Max (desperately talking about Liz)
to her, while the Michael and Isabel meeting felt very platonic
afterward, complete with a sweet hug and shared concern. Three words
come to mind: Tess Mind Control. Neither incident seems particulary
biologically based ñ Tess simply controls Maxís urges when around
him, and presumably induces the M/I dreams (I doubt their bodies are
genetically fixed to dream the exact same dream at the exact same
time) yet afterward there seems to be no sexual lust between them.
Hereís what I am suggesting. (Granted, I hate this whole biology
mating aspect because it dampens the purity of the M/L relationship,
but I also think the problems with this storyline are just too
far-reaching to ever be satisfactorily reconciled to the audience ñ
we will always feel unsettled by the nature of it all.) I think that
the quartet was sent here, each with a companion, naturally. Take
away the ìprogrammedî aspect of this mating bit, and we can get rid
of this larger-than-life plotline weíre starting to see. Tess, of
course, is manipulating the trio because as she and her ìfatherî
have been roaming around looking for the lost three members of their
ìfamilyî, sheís undoubtedly been ingrained with the expectation that
there is someone there like her, as good as her, for her. It would
only be natural. Therefore, while her penchant for arranging sugar
cubes into squares (that tie into the cave map) reflects a
legitimate fact of their existence, she has planted visions in their
minds to drive them together the way itís supposed to be. Sheís
wily, sheís manipulative, and sheís a liar. And she created that
hatching vision for Max, probably to convey to him their supposed
ìdestinyî and make him feel guilty for leaving her (I believe he
would have remembered if heíd really even seen her ñ he so clearly
remembered the Michael story in the Balance.)
The only convincing thing weíve seen so far that may back up the
biological factor is the conversation between Isabel and Max on the
awakening sense of something ìprimal, instinctive, and not human.î
Tess could very well be stimulating a more acute sense of the
physical alien nature ñ she clearly has more developed powers than
they, and this feeling could be attributed to an awakening
understanding of their own capabilities within their own bodies.
Well, this amounts to my hopes for toning down the more distasteful
elements of the new story, though Iíd love to see them build on the
tremendous potential of the sci-fi. I think it could be done. It
leaves plenty of compelling roads to take as far as the aliensí
struggle with their human nature and otherwise, as so many have been
discussing.
For the spoiled, I also want to suggest that the writers could take
this track to nullify some of the more disturbing finale spoilers
when they start planning for next season. I think it would make many
of us quite happy.
Kate: Congratulations! I too graduate 5-27. One month to go, made
much more difficult by my recent total and complete addiction to
these boards.
SF Member Posts:84 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-28-2000 05:30 AM
quote:
Originally posted by MEP:
1) On necessity: I think my assumption was that precognition
requires a blurring of the distinction between past, present and
future - for a being capable of this, time would not be linear and
would have no "arrow", so to speak. And, maybe my logic is
fallacious, but wouldn't that mean that past and future are
equally immutable?
From what you just wrote, I'd say you're still conceptualizing time
as linear, just saying that prescience changes it from
unidirectional (our perception - the future unknown) to
bidirectional (both the future and past unknown). I agree with that
logic, but I still don't think it makes both immutable, however,
perceptually they are immutable. I'm thinking of some pretty
standard Star Trek time paradoxes. Lets say something that happens
today changes your past, unless you have some faculty to remember
the change in time line, you'll accept your new past as the real
one. Hence, perceptually, the past always seems immutable. The only
SF character I've ever come across who seemed to be able to sense
past shifts was Guinan in STNG.
So how does that make the perception of your future immutable. Take
the above analogy, and make the change happen in one of your
potential futures, if the yes/no toggles back down that time line
intersect with the current reality you're experiencing, then your
perception of that future, if you have prescience, would be
immutable assuming you make the identical yes/no decisions at each
of the appropriate branching points in the time line.
quote:
Originally posted by MEP:
In that context, prescience might not really change anything (we
know the past, but can do nothing to change it, we have no choice
about it). And if there is any randomness it's only in the sense
that it serves no one's purpose - but it's still part of
inescapable causal chain.
Your logic stands, but I think it's still just our limited
perception of immutability. The only reality we can truly be sure of
is the NOW. The NOW me, typing this up, is just as real as a
perceived future NOW me gardening, as real a perceived past NOW me
doing something, and I wouldn't even discount that we might all
exist contemporaneously, or that we might never be part of this NOW
me's perception. I don't know how well I explained that. Time is so
difficult.
Well work is calling. I'll try to respond to more of your post
later.
Just in case you're wondering, I totally reject the concept that
time is linear, even though my perception of it is totally linear.
I'm very comforted by the fact that space-time distorts around
gravity wells, and that it is physically, not just perceptually,
affected by speed.
Jufemme Junior Member Posts:13 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-28-2000 09:48 AM
hey
a question to everyone: how many need a scorecard to keep track of
stuff said on this board? i know i do
42 and sterlingsilver: i totally share your thoughts on the validity
of the tess induced visions. it's interesting that MAX was the first
one to think of them as being false; ISABEL believed them without
question; and now MAX (when confronted with an *alien* vision with
the pods) believes them too. logically, isabel should have been the
most skeptical about it all considering her experience with
dreamwalking and manipulation, but logic is often absent when
intense emotions are put into the equation. Michael is, as he said
in TLV, busy trying to decide which problem to panic over- max,
izzy, and maria have all been coming to him with problems, not to
mention the real world complexities of paying bills and such now
that he's living on his own. if this keeps up, he'll snap and the
**** will *really* hit the fan. the question is: would that make
things easier for max to get his head in gear (since michael
screwing up is normality)? does the above paragraph make any sense
at all?
MEP & SF on PRECOGNITION: i think the star trek ideas would be
waaaay too complicated for this show- there simply wouldn't be any
*time* to explain it all! what's usually done with precognition to
stop it from being god-like is cripling it in some way. merlin had
no idea what already hapenned and what didn't, so his gift was very
difficult to use. a simpler way to deal with this is have the precog
see isolated events of possible futures, not know what event
hapenned in which timeline, in effect seeing only the effect and not
the cause. this would make it nearly impossible to determine *why*
something hapenned and then change it or select the preferable
future. no one really knows whether time is linear or not and i
don't think a show like roswell would spend air time on the subject.
Elliott Member Posts:828 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-28-2000 10:18 AM
I love the idea that the manipulative Tess has planted false visions
in the minds of our alien trio. But I'm suspicious of the theory too
because it seems like wishful thinking.
Posters/lurkers on this thread might want to read the transcript of
Jason Behr's recent interview on an L.A. radio program, which has
been posted on this board. You have to wade through a lot of
nonsense (including a lot of 'uhh's from Jason) but he says two
interesting things with regards to ROSWELL plot points.
One is that none of the teen couples has actually had sex, "Sexual
Healing" notwithstanding, so all the idealistic Dream Girls were
right. The other is that this sexual heat that has arisen on the
part of the aliens apparently has to do with the V-formation
constellation that moved into place in the heavens. So Tess isn't
just Venus' representative on Earth (god help us) but Venus has
literally inspired this epidemic of frenzied dreaming and
lovemaking, at least according to JB.
rosrocks
Member Posts:36 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-28-2000 11:49 AM
Hey! (Standard Roswell greeting)
I'm fairly new to the boards and brand new to the sci-fi threads,
and I've got to say this is great! You guys are blowing my mind!
This adds the depth to the show that you get when you 'read the
book' (as opposed to watching the movie).
Ros
[This message has been edited by rosrocks (edited 04-28-2000).]
Leneba Member Posts:200 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-28-2000 04:58 PM
SF:
Michael as Navigator? Yes! I think we must have been sharing brain
waves on that one. I was thinking the exact same thing. Clearly, his
forte is navigation. As you pointed out, he found the way out of the
cave. He was instinctively able to read the map. He probably was the
one (not Is) who figured out where Tess had taken Max. And remember
his visions from the Balance episode. Setting aside the issues of
trust, those visions were all about the map and the constellation.
He woke up knowing exactly what to do with those stones. Oh yes, and
let's not forget the key and the visions of Atherton's house. He was
the only one who got flashes leading to that destination.
Michael comes off as a misfit, incapable of controlling his powers
in a meaningful way and in some ways not as powerful as the other
two. But his pathfinding skills are invaluable. If you're far from
your home planet, you would darned well want someone with Michael's
skills with you. His talents will prove to be as important at Max's
healing and Isabel's dreamwalking.
I just had another thought. I (and some others) have been bothered
by the fact that RiverDog sought out Michael specifically for that
trip into the woods. Maybe he selected Michael because he knew that
while the symbol was familiar to all three, it would have a
particular significance to Michael. He was right. Michael figured
out which symbol to burn as a return signal and where it needed to
be placed. The presence of the other two at Nasedo's signal was
incidental to Michael's actions at the Public Library. Which still
leaves us with the nagging question of just who is RiverDog and how
much does he really know?
SterlingSilver, I really liked the way you developed that
explanation of how Tess was able to manipulate our trio. I have a
teeny thought to add, which occured to me as I was typing the part
about individual strengths. I wonder if Tess targeted Isabel for
friendship so that she could exploit Isabel's ability for
dreamwalking. She may have directed Isabel's dreams and used Isabel
as a conduit to draw Michael in and control his dreams as well. I
have a hard time believing the dreams came from within Michael. It
was more as if he was partaking in HER dreams. They were depicted as
being from her point of view. Did that midday nap of hers seem
suspicious to anyone else? Even with the explanation of a poor
night's sleep, there was something odd about the way she dropped off
so completely. It was almost as if she'd been drugged. Remember,
Tess saw Isabel sneaking her class schedule. The next scene was Tess
"retaliating" by drawing those intimate details of Isabel and Max's
life from their mom, complete with photos. Sterling, I think you're
right on the money with your theories--at least I HOPE you are!
Kath7 Member Posts:115 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-28-2000 06:22 PM
MEP,
Thanks for bringing up the "fate" vs. "destiny" debate because these
words have been quite deliberately used on Roswell of late and I
think that they are very important...here's my take on the matter...
I agree with you that fate and destiny are two very different
things...Max tells Liz at the end of SH that he knows what he wants
his role to be in her destiny...However, in TLV he tells her that
his healing her in the Crashdown was "fate." I think that the use of
these words in their separate contexts is important....
My definition of the two words based on religious and historical
factors:
Destiny: "predetermined" as in "predestination." I can't remember
exactly which sect of Christinity believes in predestination, but I
know that it means that your afterlife is decided before you even
live your life on earth...in other words, it is predetermined that
you are going to heaven or not...anything you do on earth during
your lifetime cannot alter this "destiny"....
My definition of "fate" - an accident....something that was not
meant to happen but does due to circumstances unforseen...in my
opinion fate is stronger than destiny because fate is the
accident....it undermines destiny by happening at all, thus is most
likely to be the more powerful...
Anyway, what does this all have to do with Roswell? Tess equals
Max's destiny, while Liz is his fate....
Tess uses the word destiny numerous times in Four Square...Max is
her destined mate but this does not mean that fate cannot
intervene...in other words, it was predetermined that Max and Tess
be together, but fate intervened in the form of Liz....
It is clear in SH that Max hopes to be part of Liz's destiny because
he wants to be assured that it is predetermined that they are meant
to be together...however, the use of the word fate in TLV implies
that their connection was an accident...thus undermining Max's
destiny with Tess, and in my opinion, being more powerful...as
mentioned above, I believe that fate is more powerful than destiny
and, thus, Max and Liz will end up together...
Sterling Silver - great job putting into words how I felt about all
those weird scenes between Max/Tess and Michael/Isabel...they were
so clinical feeling...there was no warmth, no passion like in the
scenes between ML and MM .... also very good point about how Michael
and Iz were still brother/sistery at the end of Four Square... these
dreams may have been activated (maybe by Tess, maybe by the V
constellation) but I don't think that M/I are necessarily buying
into it... I also agree that Max has always been very zoney in any
scene with Tess - it definately all seems to be against his will...
I was definately disturbed by the succubus imagery when she popped
into his room...
Alienwatcher
Member Posts:26 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-28-2000 07:39 PM
First let me say I LOVE THIS THREAD! So thought provoking - here's
my thoughts on the points brought up in this thread.
THE WRITERS CHANGING THE ALIENS HISTORY - since Max did not remember
there being a fourth pod perhaps his memories did not start until
they were out of the cave. Since Michael was the first to leave and
Isabelle waited to take Max's hand, maybe once Max and Is got out,
Michael had disappeared. Maybe thats when Max's memory starts.
THE PODS BEING SET UP IN THE CAVE - Max, Is and Michael all assume
they were part of the 1947 crash but maybe this alien race has been
visiting earth for decades (maybe even centuries) and they actually
arrived on a ship that landed later. Perhaps there are quite a few
aliens of their race here on earth. Although per Shee, I agree that
it is also possible that the crash occurred upon lift off after the
pods were set up. But then you wonder why it took 39 years for the
aliens to "be born".
THE BOOK: I truly believe that Tess has been with Nasedo all this
time. That is how she knows so much. I think by the time Nasedo
arrived the otherS had been born and left and Tess was the only one
left. Maybe their pod timers were off. Anyway, I think they have
been looking for Max, Is and Michael ever since. I don't believe
Tess has anything to do with the government. I think Mr. Harding is
Nasedo and his government "job" is just a way to keep tabs on the
alien hunters. Just because he says he's in storage management
doesn't mean that's the truth.
ISABELLE'S PREGNANCY - I don't believe Is is pregnant. I think the
dreams were visions of a possible future or destiny. The pods were
probably more of a suspended animation container for the, I assume,
long trip from their planet as opposed to an incubation chamber.
SF Member Posts:84 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-28-2000 08:14 PM
Lenaba, thanks for bringing up Riverdog again, there's something
about him I keep forgetting to post. When Max and Liz were looking
at the Aries constellation with Venus in the correct position. Liz
reads "first sign of the zodiac, spring equinox, pagan ceremonies,
even indian fertility rituals." That last part made me think of
Riverdog. Maybe he told Nasedo about the fertility rituals, and
Nasedo incorporated it into his book and predestination game. OR,
the constellation is just another fact bolstering Rosta's idea that
they've been coming here for a long time. Long enough that the
constellation plays a role in the aliens' "heat."
[This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-28-2000).]
SF Member Posts:84 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-28-2000 08:19 PM
Double post, sorry
[This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-28-2000).]
Alienwatcher
Member Posts:26 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-28-2000 08:29 PM
As I continue to read this thread it seems every thought or idea I
had has already be explained so very well.
TO ROSTA AND LSS - Great insights!!
I honestly believed when Liz confronted Tess that Tess was sincere
in her response. I thought that she was upset that she was hurting
Max and Liz. But then in 4sq when she talk to Is about Max she
seemed right back to her agenda.
I agree that Max my come to feel he will have to sacrifice his love
for Liz in order to fulfill his destiny. I also think that Tess will
come to realize the bond shared between Max and Liz and will
ultimately be the one to convince Max to be with Liz.
Re: Michaels comment to Max "why are you so afraid of being alien"
and Max's reply "why are you so afraid of being human" may come to
be profound. So far Michael has wanted nothing else than to embrace
his alien side and Max has wanted nothing else than pretend it
doesn't exist. You would think Michael will jump at his destiny and
Max will rebel, but I think we will be surprise and just the
opposite will happen. Max will make the decision to sacrifice
everything and Michael will decide to try and keep his "human" life.
Although I hope in the end Max will not have to sacrifice anything.
I think we are giving Tess to much credit for mind control. I think
just her presence is enough to trigger memories and flashes in the
others. I believe they are just remembering or re-learning things
that have always been buried deep inside of them. But I do think
Tess is aware of her affect on them and continues to put herself
near them in order to trigger these visions/dreams.
TO WISTERS - If Tess was getting her info from the government, why
would they have left the book at the library all this time?
Again, I believe Mr. Harding is Nasedo and they have been together
all this time looking for M/M/I.
QUESTION? - with all the inferences to astrology I was wondering -
how far away do you think M/M/I's home planet is and would the stars
and constellations appear the same to them as they do here on earth?
Would the point of references be the same?
THE BOOK - If the book is written in the alien language - can Tess
read that language? Perhaps she is misinterpeting what the book says
(although we don't know what the book is supposed to say yet)
assuming it says they are to pair off. Maybe her translation is
incorrect and we will find out next season (and God I hope there is
a next season) that the aliens really aren't supposed to be paired
off but something else.
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-28-2000 11:03 PM
My wife, who is better at guessing story developments than I am,
thinks Isabel is not really pregnant, but that Tess (like Ms.
Topolsky before her) has found out about the family-oriented and
nurturing side of Isabel's character and is using that as a lever to
manipulate her. Which makes me think that Tess has also found out
about Max's sympathy toward small, injured or helpless creatures,
and designed a false vision of Max and the others abandoning her in
her pod, in order to exploit this part of his nature. Maybe she
intends him to feel guilty and to want to make amends. So I have
joined those of you who distrust that whole scene of the cave and
the pods. (Although it may contain some true particulars.)
If Tess represents Temptation, perhaps we can expect three rounds of
it? In Round 1, M/M/I and Tess know very little about each other.
Tess apparently makes some conventional assumptions, and approaches
Isabel socially (plus some mind control, since everyone noticed how
uncharacteristic was Isabel's quick acceptance), and tries to
influence Max by sex appeal. She has very limited success with Max,
and she sees that M/M/I have learned to be on their guard, so Tess
prepares for Round 2 by studying her targets better -- what will
disarm and motivate them? If this picture is right, we are waiting
to see the outcome of Round 2, and I am guessing that Round 3 will
involve the book. (Like the devil tempting Christ three times: first
an appeal to the appetites; second, an offer designed to appeal to a
moral visionary -- the power to rule the world in order to set
things right; lastly, quoting The Book, but with deceit.)
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-28-2000 11:42 PM
LSS, interesting you should ask whether the pods were ever in the
1947 crash. I think M/M/I only assume so, and don't really know.
(Max to Liz: "All I know is, it wasn't a weather balloon that
crashed....") But now that there seem to be hints of long-time alien
presence on Earth, this question looks wide open. Maybe the pods
were there before the crash, hidden for some other reason, and it
was bad luck that the crash focused attention on that area.
Are the pods for gestation or only for stasis, perhaps to allow for
astronomically long travel times? I incline to think they really are
for gestation. One hint is that, in the figure that looks like four
pods connected by an X, each pod contains a mark shaped like a
comma, that looks like a stylized representation of an embryo. I
doubt that shape would be used if the occupants were already grown.
For another thing, I have the impression that these aliens somehow
get around the universe with breathtaking swiftness (are they not
from the *Whirlwind* galaxy?); I don't think they need long-term
stasis to cope with transit times.
sterlingsilver Member Posts:272 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-29-2000 01:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Nemo:
My wife, who is better at guessing story developments than I am,
thinks Isabel is not really pregnant, but that Tess (like Ms.
Topolsky before her) has found out about the family-oriented and
nurturing side of Isabel's character and is using that as a lever
to manipulate her. Which makes me think that Tess has also found
out about Max's sympathy toward small, injured or helpless
creatures, and designed a false vision of Max and the others
abandoning her in her pod, in order to exploit this part of his
nature. Maybe she intends him to feel guilty and to want to make
amends. So I have joined those of you who distrust that whole
scene of the cave and the pods. (Although it may contain some true
particulars.)
Nemo: Really good insight backing up this whole Tess-induced visions
thing. I thought of another point, concerning Michael. Tess went to
his window and made the four square sign again in the fog of her
breath - so she also knows about his continual interest in the
search for home and family. In this scene, she appeals to his
curiosity about the symbols of the maps. So she has exploited the
natures of all three of our regularly-scheduled pod squad.
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-29-2000 01:47 PM
LAWard, SF, and Alienwatcher bring up the point that constellations
viewed from other vantage points wouldn't look the same as from
Earth. I would expect star patterns to look markedly different if
viewed from even 100 light years away, since many of our bright
stars are closer than that. Yet that distance is only 0.1% of the
size of our galaxy. And in SH it was implied that the aliens are
from another galaxy.
With the planet Venus as part of the formation, it wouldn't look the
same even from somewhere else in our solar system, and the formation
would be temporary, as already pointed out.
I think the writers are not letting these considerations limit them
too much. They seem to be using the stars to help them tell the
story.
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-29-2000 06:01 PM
42, I like your idea about the curly hair as a clue that the vision
is a fake. Also like your name. Is that as in "I searched by the old
radio tower along highway 42, looking for the secret to life, the
universe, and everything, and all I found was this lousy orb?"
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 05-01-2000).]
MEP Member Posts:55 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-30-2000 02:38 AM
I realize that the discusson has moved on, but I only now got a
chance to respond to SF's post, so please forgive me.
SF - I see what you're saying about immutability. Changing just one
parameter's setting could cause a whole new timeline (where Max
falls for Liz) to come into existence (are we talking alternate
universes again? Or would the old timeline just cease to exist
altogether?), which would appear as immutable and always "meant to
be" as the first one (where Max probably never meets her). I think
that does solve the problem of the constellation - presumably, it
was different in the timeline where the four aliens did not get
separated. And, of course, since the shift affects the whole causal
chain, prescience wouldn't help the aliens detect it. Considering
how many times I've watched that Star Trek episode (it's my
favourite), you'd think I'd be able to come up with this one on my
own! Tsk, tsk.
It's true that this only works if we already assume that, in a given
context, there is more than one possible setting for each parameter.
However, I think quantum theory supports this assumption of built-in
randomness and, since I never really was on the rationalist side
(perfectly summed-up by Einstein's "God doesn't play dice with the
universe") of the whole necessity debate, I find it entirely
warranted.
On the bidirectional vs. non-linear time issue: I did start thinking
about it in non-linear terms, but I probably got confused/distracted
later on (the argument didn't seem to require a distinction).
Because I come to this from a philosophical, not a scientific
perspective, the best way I could devise of conceptualizing
non-linear time was in terms of the old "God's eye view" notion: my
interpretation of it is that God would perceive time as a whole and
an eternal present, not a succession of events (is this similar to
what you were getting at in your paragraph on "contemporaneous
NOWs"?). But that's probably not the best way to go about it
because, as I found out, it's quite difficult (perhaps even
logically unsound) to disentangle this ability from the other
perfections attributed to God and, implicitly, from the idea of
predestination. And our aliens, assuming that their intuition of
time really IS non-linear, are presumably still neither eternal nor
omniscient (there is one very interesting spoiler which may be
relevant here - it's driving me insane that I can't bring it up).
So, while they WOULD be likely to harbour a belief in immutable
destiny which is much stronger than that of humans (for whom the
future is always uncertain), that wouldn't necessarily make it a
correct belief.
Have I understood you correctly on all of this?
One last thing: if mortal and not omniscient, it SEEMS that the
aliens would only be able to really "know" the chunk of time/space
with which they are personally involved while alive (I'm getting a
migraine trying to figure out how that would work in non-linear
terms). We know things from before we were born from other people's
accounts, but yet unborn aliens could not serve the same function
with respect to the "future", could they? So how would they make
long-term prophecies? Either they are, in fact, immortal(?!) or they
live a lot longer than we do or other abilities are involved
(ability to move through space/time? Would an altogether different,
less continuous way of experiencing "reality" be implicit in such an
extraordinary perception of time?).
OK, I'm confusing myself again, so I'll give up. For now.
Moving on... Kath7 - very interesting point. I hadn't really thought
of my distinction in terms of M/L, but it looks like it might work,
even with the added complication of time shifts. Let's say that Max
was programmed to react in a certain way to a stimulus/Tess (his
destiny) but a random variation inhibited that "stimulus". We have a
new timeline which would still be perceived as destiny by our
prescient aliens, where Max's "programming" still stands, but where
Liz ends up acting as a "stimulus" instead (which isn't to say that
she would necessarily induce the exact same effect - the whole chain
has changed). Yep, I think it works.
On Tess as an [evil] manipulator: I think the writers have
intentionally kept this ambiguous enough to work either way - the
only really convincing evidence for this theory that I see so far is
Max's fantasy in the lab (I think someone else mentioned that, but I
can't seem to locate the post again). I do find it extremely
difficult to believe that it originated in his mind. However, I must
say that I think the storyline would be much more interesting if she
were, in fact, just a trigger for "alien self"-discovery and
relatively "good" (and, therefore, hard to simply deny, just like
the new things M/M/I are learning about themselves).
[This message has been edited by MEP (edited 04-30-2000).]
[This message has been edited by MEP (edited 04-30-2000).]
SF Member Posts:84 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-01-2000 04:52 PM
MEP, thanks for getting back to me, sorry I didn't complete my
earlier post. I had planned to go in to edit and add to it, but I
ran out of time. I loved your "God's eye view" analogy of a whole
and eternal present. That's exactly what I was going for, and I'm
amazed you got it out of my garbled attempt. I can imagine the
headache you gave yourself trying to work through the ideas in an
eternal present.
"And our aliens, assuming that their intuition of time really IS
non-linear, are presumably still neither eternal nor omniscient..."
MEP, did you get a chance to read some of the energy alien theories
on the SF of SH thread? The theories fit some things perfectly, and
other facts not at all, but implicit in the energy alien idea is
immortality, or eternity. As yet, we have no evidence for a
non-linear concept of time, immortality or omniscience, and I think
we can definitely rule out the latter as a possibility. Omniscience
doesn't seem to be something you could grow into or learn. So yeah,
I agree that even if they believed in the immutability of their
destiny, since they can't possibly be omniscient, their belief might
be in error.
I think you've thought it through much more than I have, but that's
pretty much the essence of what I was going for.
Mep, lets see if I understood what you were saying. We know about
things before we were born because of other people's accounts. And
when you say that unborn aliens couldn't serve this function with
respect to the future you're referring to your idea that if the
configuration of Aries and Venus caused them to get back together,
then maybe they were meant to be separated. Are you saying that
because the whole thing was set in motion prior to their emergence,
how did they make the long term prophecies? I can see your
conundrum. The two easy outs are that they emerged with a collective
unconcious that includes the precognitive visions,or they're being
manipulated by the orb; but then the question remains who had the
original long-term prophecies to insert into their collective
unconcious or the orb, and all your questions stand.
I'd love to discuss this in more depth MEP, but I'm currently
swamped, and I'm not going to be able to post for the rest of
Roswell's season, so I want to take this opportunity to thank LSS
for starting the SF threads, and to extend my appreciation for all
the great posts to MEP, LSS, Nemo, JanetMG, Rosta, Kate, Elliot,
amx, Lenaba and everyone who's contributed to these threads. They've
really increased my enjoyment of Roswell. Hopefull I'll have a
little bit of time to lurk and see what you are all saying.
MEP, The Midwich Cuckoos is a book by Wyndham (might have the
author's name a little wrong, but it's close) a british SF writer.
It's about a small town where everyone loses part of a day, then 9
months later all the women have very similar looking children. I
know there've been two pretty awful movies made of it. It's just
some schlocky teen SF that could be out of print at this point, but
Iz thinking she's pregnant after losing time in Tess's presence just
reminds me of it.
SF Member Posts:84 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-01-2000 05:35 PM
MEP, thanks for getting back to me, sorry I didn't complete my
earlier post. I had planned to go in to edit and add to it, but I
ran out of time. I loved your "God's eye view" analogy of a whole
and eternal present. That's exactly what I was going for, and I'm
amazed you got it out of my garbled attempt. I can imagine the
headache you gave yourself trying to work through the ideas in an
eternal present.
"And our aliens, assuming that their intuition of time really IS
non-linear, are presumably still neither eternal nor omniscient..."
MEP, did you get a chance to read some of the energy alien theories
on the SF of SH thread? The theories fit some things perfectly, and
other facts not at all, but implicit in the energy alien idea is
immortality, or eternity. As yet, we have no evidence for a
non-linear concept of time, immortality or omniscience, and I think
we can definitely rule out the latter as a possibility. Omniscience
doesn't seem to be something you could grow into or learn. So yeah,
I agree that even if they believed in the immutability of their
destiny, since they can't possibly be omniscient, their belief might
be in error.
I think you've thought it through much more than I have, but that's
pretty much the essence of what I was going for.
Mep, lets see if I understood what you were saying. We know about
things before we were born because of other people's accounts. And
when you say that unborn aliens couldn't serve this function with
respect to the future you're referring to your idea that if the
configuration of Aries and Venus caused them to get back together,
then maybe they were meant to be separated. Are you saying that
because the whole thing was set in motion prior to their emergence,
how did they make the long term prophecies? I can see your
conundrum. The two easy outs are that they emerged with a collective
unconcious that includes the precognitive visions,or they're being
manipulated by the orb; but then the question remains who had the
original long-term prophecies to insert into their collective
unconcious or the orb, and all your questions stand.
I'd love to discuss this in more depth MEP, but I'm currently
swamped, and I'm not going to be able to post for the rest of
Roswell's season, so I want to take this opportunity to thank LSS
for starting the SF threads, and to extend my appreciation for all
the great posts to MEP, LSS, Nemo, JanetMG, Rosta, Kate, Elliot,
amx, Lenaba and everyone who's contributed to these threads. They've
really increased my enjoyment of Roswell. Hopefull I'll have a
little bit of time to lurk and see what you are all saying.
MEP, The Midwich Cuckoos is a book by Wyndham (might have the
author's name a little wrong, but it's close) a british SF writer.
It's about a small town where everyone loses part of a day, then 9
months later all the women have very similar looking children. I
know there've been two pretty awful movies made of it. It's just
some schlocky teen SF that could be out of print at this point, but
Iz thinking she's pregnant after losing time in Tess's presence just
reminds me of it.
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-01-2000 06:01 PM
MEP and SF, I think you may be onto something about time being
different for some of the aliens, partly because of that statue of
the Buddha. Regardless of what the statue may mean to the Hardings,
I suspect the writers introduced it as a symbol of great antiquity
or timelessness or something weird in the time dimension (as well as
a symbol of emotionlessness).
Nemo Member Posts:253 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-03-2000 10:59 PM
I asked my wife about the appearance of the book, and she said it
reminded her of stone tablets and the Ten Commandments. So maybe
that fits with Tess "finding" it up high, like climbing the
mountain. And maybe this was being foreshadowed when Valenti said to
Max "I'm the Law...."
LSS Member Posts:789 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-08-2000 07:58 AM
trying to get this archived
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