JanetMG
Posts: 145  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 03-29-2000 08:23 PM

LSS, I hope you don't mind that I started this up, but I had a couple of thoughts (& couldn't fall asleep so what the heck).
1) There's been a lot of discussion about whether Max changed Liz when he healed her. It struck me tonight that Liz's participation in the healing may have changed her (or intensified the changes Max started). River Dog warned that the Balance can suck you in and change you mentally & physically if you don't navigate it properly. (Remember the discussions when the ep first aired about whether it changed Max.) Liz "found her own way"--not using the circle, the water or the ritual chant. If I remember correctly, Elliott, you've always thought there may be more to River Dog. I agree, and he may have stopped Liz from participating "properly" because of ulterior motives. I can think of benevolent & not so benevolent reasons why River Dog may want Liz to be changed.
2) Any thoughts on why the water seemed to trigger Michael's first vision at Liz's House? The commonality factor discussed by River Dog later on doesn't seem applicable there.
3) On the energy being front, River Dog said that Nacedo told him that the rocks had the same energy that was inside or within him. Seems supportive of the theory, but there was something about the exact phrasing (which I can't remember) which made me think it was a part of Nacedo, but not what he was.
4) Given that the heat of a sweat (apparently unexpectedly) threw off Nacedo's balance, why did he leave the rocks with River Dog? You'd think he'd want them with him in case something else knocked him for a loop. Maybe there were more rocks, but it didn't sound like it. (If heat is a problem for our aliens, wouldn't they be comfier if they moved to New England.)
5) Finally (and off topic), just wanted to mention that I was glad to see Topolsky in the promo. I've always thought there was more to her than an ambitious FBI agent, and I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of "ally" she is (or isn't, but my vote is that she is on their side).

Leneba
Posts: 175  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-29-2000 09:42 PM

I have some ideas regarding the heat of the sweat supposedly causing Michael's illness.
First a little background, please bear with me--
The sweat ritual is used for a variety of reasons:
1) as a purification ritual
2) for spiritual guidance
3) for healing the body, mind and/or spirit
4) associated with prayer and preparation
My Indian friend pointed out that while the above reasons may be a part of an Indian's very personal and private experience, the same would not be true for an outsider, whether alien or not. She maintains that non-Indians use the sweat for health reasons--relaxation and detoxification.
However, something happened to Michael which I believe had to do with more than merely being in a hot environment. JanetMG, I agree that it seems more than a little odd for the aliens to be so vulnerable to heat and live in a desert region.
I came across a statement regarding the sweat ritual which I find to be telling.
"A clear mind is necessary before entering a sweat lodge. Do not enter if you are not ready to be cleansed of such things as anger and jealosy."
I think the central issue is trust. When Michael saw the drawings from the cave, he realized that Max didn't trust him with that information. Furthermore, Michael now regards Max as not trustworthy. He said as much to Isabel as he left for the reservation.
Eddie refers to the sweat as a "spiritual cleansing". I suspect that because Michael entered the ceremony with anger and selfish purpose, he made his "balance" vulnerable to the heat.
Back at the Crashdown, when Michael has that 112 degree temperature, Max says "please let me help you". If this were simply some alien form of heat exhaustion, shouldn't Max and Isabel been able to heal him? The "balance" must be more than a physical quality. I wonder if it is akin to a spiritual battery. Perhaps Max and Isabel would have been able to heal Michael if he felt he could trust them completely. As Max pointed out to Liz, Michael had issues of trust from the very beginning--"Michael was afraid to reveal himself. He said the hardest thing he ever had to do was trust us."
When the friends gathered to heal Michael, it was a selfless act that included no small risk to themselves. Alex, as the newest and most unconnected member of the group, showed great courage and faith by stepping forward to take his place first. As River Dog passed the bowl of water around (incidentally, the same bowl that was used in the sweat ritual), he told them to "clear your mind and drink...it will change how you feel about your friend and you will come out on the right side." The feelings they had for Michael were important in the healing. As the stones began to glow, so did the center of Michael's body. He had visions of Max and Isabel coming for him, Max taking his hand, the three of them joined. It was the happier ending to their scarey first memories. All three were linked, and together they were strong and confident.
Which brings me to Nasedo's experience years earlier. Wasn't it telling that River Dog said the elders believed he was an evil spirit and thus invited him into the sweat to test him? Up to this point, the tests that River Dog gave our trio were to determine whether they were "visitors", not to assess whether they were good or evil. Nasedo's reaction was "quick and severe. His eyes turned white and he had a fever within one minute." Nasedo ran out to the desert and ended up in the cave, dying. Isn't it interesting that Nasedo had to TRUST River Dog with his secret in order to be healed? Furthermore, I wonder if his sudden, sever reaction wasn't simply confirming the elders' suspicions regarding his true nature. Maybe the degree to which an alien is affected by the ceremony has more to do with their purity of heart and intentions and less to do with their physiology. A few of you have already pointed out that Michael has the potential for falling into darkness. What would have happened if it had been Max in that ceremony?
I, too, wonder about the significance of the water. It is present during the sweat. It triggers a violent reaction in Michael when he is already so ill. It is used to symbolically bind the friends as they attempt the healing.
Janet, good point about Nasedo leaving such potentially vital instruments of healing behind. Why DOES River Dog have those stones?

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 12:02 AM

Janet:
Well done--this is the one episode that I have not fully seen and it does not air here until tomorrow. Will add my $.02 then.
LSS

SF
Posts: 63  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 03-30-2000 04:50 AM

Lenaba, great post. The idea that the "sweat" tests the spirit rather than the physical being is a wonderful insight, and does a nice job explaining Michael's delay in showing the alien symptons. I'm hoping Michael wont go to the dark side, but I agree that the potential is there.
JanetMG I also keyed into Nasedo saying that the balance can suck you in, it can change your body and your mind. The cocoon/metamorphosis/change imagery is laced throughout the episode. For those of us who've like the energy alien or alien with an energy aspect idea, Nasedo suggests a "mechanism of action." During Michael's crisis he went into the balance where he had visions, and could potentially have been lost (i.e. died, ceased being Micahel) or changed/metmorphosized/reincarnated into someone/thing new. Reincarnated is the wrong word (it has too many conotations that don't apply) but the balance strikes me as similar to the eastern religious idea of reincarnation (the spirit/personality components break apart on death, go to a mingling component place [I don't know the right word], and different components come together as a new individual), or maybe it's more analagous to the river (Hesse, Siddharta). Please correct me if I have it totally wrong, this is not something I know much about.
I don't know if y'all picked up another change metaphor. I could be reading in here... Snake eyes scale over (become milky) just before they shed their skin.

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 05:33 AM

Leneba:
Still haven't seen the episode (but went back and read the transcript and watched the slide show). I really like your analysis of the sweat working on a psycho/emotional/spiritual level. Moreover--the idea of "trust" being the key rather that simply "heat" makes a lot more narrative sense (after all we are, as you noted, in NM and it just doesn't seem logical that a steam bath could do that much damage!).
What I don't understand is why it took all of our gang to rescue/heal Michael, but apparently only one person (Riverdog) to heal/rescue Nesedo. As for leaving the stones with Riverdog...it has already been implied that Nesedo left a "message" for the others (Riverdog episode), perhaps leaving the stones is connected to that rather than their healing significance? Or perhaps both?
The idea that the sweat experience functions as a moral barometer for Nesedo is interesting. I'm still not quite sure if Nesedo is "evil", however, within the normal definition of the word. If Nesedo is working for the alien cause, than his actions can be explained by appeal to the "common (alien) good."
Also, when comparing Nesedo and Michael's reaction to the sweat--you may be compairing apples and oranges. That is, your comparison assumes that both are the same type of alien...they may not be (see the various theories of two types of aliens on the SF of SH thread). If they are different types then that could account for their different reactions.
In relation to that last point--who was Nesedo afraid of in the Riverdog episode--human enemies or alien ones? Most of us assumed that it was human ones--but Max asked about their identity and Riverdog could not answer. But Max DID think that the message might have been a "warning". If we have more than one type of alien and if we have more aliens (trying desperately to remain spoiler free here) then it raises some interesting possibilities as to whom (or what) the warnings refer.
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-30-2000).]
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-30-2000).]

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 26  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 05:59 AM

Good Morning!
Great posts JanetMG and Leneba. I have a class and presentation this morning so just some quick comments for now.
Leneba, I agree with what information you got from your friend. Thanks for sharing. BTW-did you see the link I left for you re labyrinths ? I agree with you about the lpossible central issue of TRUST. Your post is so full of good thoughts, but I need to come back after class.
My knowledge is skim here and I don't have access to my books. Navaho myth talks about the Creator who, with the Holy People, created the natural world. Only the Creator knows the origins of the cosmos. The Holy People created the first man and woman . The world was put in "Balance" which is a connected of humans with the earth and the cosmos and, most importantly, the society with each other (ie, harmony, peace, protection, and balance. Navajo healing ceremonies ( The Blessing Way) relate the creation myth, the building of the first home (Hogan, which is the 5 sided hut where the BW and sweat and pipe/smoke ceremonies take place as in this episode). It is a sacred place where ceremonies are performed for restoring physical and physical imbalance among other changes/life marking events.
The wheel appears to be the Medicine Wheel, a sacred symbol.
Water is considered the lifeblood of the earthly realm and is passed in the ritual bowl. There are sacred plants that are used as well and blown in the pipe or water is spit into the fire or plants are burned and the smoke is blown in the direction of the individual/initiate
I had a sense that Michael had a bad reaction to the purifying smoke rather than just the water. I have to watch again. What do you all think? I am also not thinking that his illness (indeed, is it an illness or the discharge of a build-up of energy that has been channeled into him?) is all due to heat. I think it is a good theory that Michael's responses had a lot to do with spirit than a pure physical response.
The stored energy ?Cosmic Galactic Radiation (from the beginning)
The map appears to be the constellation Taurus (if indeed it is a constellation). Sheer speculation, but it might suggests that there immediate ancestors may have come from Aldeberan. And they from adiaspora that started from another galaxy. More thoughts on this later.
I like the associations with the Inca culture as I mentioned in one of my first posts on AF of SH. It raises some delicious possibilities.
SF I like the idea of changing/metamorphosis and "Emergence" (associated with spirals and circles).
Back in a few hours.
Rosta

Leneba
Posts: 175  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 07:42 AM

ROSta,
Yes, I did get a chance to look at the labrynth link. Thanks! Interestingly enough, when I was doing some reading with regards to the sweat ritual, I came across that spiral symbol again.
You're right about Michael's reaction to the smoke. River Dog tosses something onto the fire (sage? tobacco? who knows) which triggers Michael's coughing fit. No one else seems affected by the smoke. Whether or not that is because they have built up a tolerance to the smoke is anyone's guess. The impression I got was that Michael was affected because of his alien nature. River Dog looks intently at Michael and repeatedly tosses the substance onto the fire, even though he clearly knows that Michael is having difficulty with it.
LSS, I know what you mean about comparing apples and oranges. That had occured to me as well. You may be right, that the difference in speed and intensity of Michael and Nasedo's reactions had to do with a difference in their physical nature. I still like my idea of a spiritual (for lack of a better word) test.
Here's a thought. Michael's illness pretty much incapacitated him. He seemed to be unconscious for much of the time. If Nasedo became ill so quickly, how did he have the strength to run out into the desert and find the cave? Also, did he end up cocooning? River Dog made no mention of it. Maybe River Dog healed him before that happened. That might explain why he was able to do it on his own. Or maybe Nasedo had the strength to run and didn't cocoon because of that apples and oranges theory.

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 08:29 AM

Leneba:
What did you find out about the spiral symbol and the sweat? I am really interested in deciphering the significance of that symbol as it keeps surfacing in the story line.
LSS

Elliott
Posts: 733  -- Registered: Jan 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 08:35 AM

Laneba: Excellent post. Well thought out, and you give some reasonable explanations for what seemed like a lot of mumbo jumbo when I first saw the episode.
Like you, it seemed to me that when River Dog threw a powder on the fire, it was the resulting smoke that had an effect on Michael, not the heat. And later, when River Dog was explaining when this had happened earlier, wasn't the sweat lodge experience described as as a test? I agree with you about the trust issue. Michael was full of anger and distrust, especially toward Max. Is this what River Dog was testing? His impetuosity? His vulnerability? And if so, for who's information? His own? Or Nasedo's? It is from this episode that I formed my opinion that River Dog may not be the benevolent figure so many assume him to be.
About the cacooning: This leads directly to Laneba's observation that this was about trust, and was therefore a key episode in Michael's emotional development. What occurred in 'Balance' was nothing less than Michael's rebirth. Rebirth because things did not go well the first time. Michael was originally born ('hatched') in anger and distrust. Clearly the three children were meant to be found together and perhaps raised together. But Michael being Michael (as Max remembered with bemused affection) he held back, distrustful of the others. This led directly to a chaotic and destructive upbringing. He has had love/hate problems with everyone (including Max and Isabel) ever since.
For whatever reason, the sweat lodge experience caused him to go into a womblike state and return to that original birthing time. Only now he went back with his greater knowledge of Max and Isabel, who with Alex and Maria (but not Liz) acted as midwives to his rebirth. Just before he awoke to life and was reborn, he saw himself and M/I as both children and adults, and he joined them as he was meant to do originally. He had finally taken that step toward trust, restoring the emotional 'balance' he had been without all through childhood. And on 'awakening' he saw that Maria had been there and been strong for him, a beacon toward a healthy adult relationship of the future. Sleeping Beauty or Snow White with a sex change!
From this perspective, River Dog might actually be kindly, if he knew this was happening. It seemed to me he did not.
And the sweat lodge experience may be an interesting litmus for all the aliens (as has been suggested above) with different aspects of personality or conflict highlighted for each. Would Max be so perfect and evolved that he wouldn't get 'sick'? Or would this Sleeping Beauty dream about his conflicts about love and duty vis a vis Liz? I wonder if we will see that in a future episode?
LSS: Yes, River Dog healed Nasedo alone, while it took five to heal Michael, but I think RD indicated that it would simply be faster this way. Perhaps it took River Dog days to accomplish what our intrepid four helped to do in a much shorter time.
[This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-30-2000).]

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 26  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 10:53 AM

Good afternoon!
BTW, NEMO, I loved your post about Liz's visions and the sequence you outlined. My timer missed the cherries. How nice! It all suggests a long journey over an unimaginable time. But imposing time on the Universe is artificial. And we don't know who's journey and when.
I don't have enough information to even have an opinion yet; only a list of speculations about who came from where or when and where or when they arrived. Different people have raised so many possibilities it's worth laying some of them out.
The Balance associates many of our trios' memories with signs and symbols that, among earth cultures, share some common forms (ie, petroglyphs of spirals, crosses, and other geometric forms) from antiquity. Michael chants "Mesaliko" chants. River Dog knows the test for the visitor before he knows of stones. This suggests, to state simply, a collective unconscious that may have universal proportions or a transmission of cultural icons, archetypes, and myths that spans galaxies. The symbols certainly are strikingly similar to Inca and Anasazi petroglyphs. The spirals and labyrinths can be seen, in identical form, in Celtic, Cretan, Greece, Phoenician, ancient South American and Southwestern cultures at minimum. Spirals that essential have the same meaning: Emergence, unity, water, life's stages, Mother (womb).
I'm not sure one can conclude that earth cultures received a boost from an outside (alien) source at about the time of the end of the ice age, and the disappearance of Neanderthals (replaced? evolutionary? Divergence) and appearance of homo sapiens. Frontal neocortical development and he evolution of the Limbic cortex? Genetic tampering? Jumping genes?
Michael regards a cocoon of himself that almost looks, well..ancient (was anyone else reminded of "the face" on Mars in one scene?) as if he had been waiting for millenia? Or there us the memory of ancient beings long petrified? I'm still trying to work this out in my brain.
Perhaps the visitors, whatever their galaxy of origin and mode of transport (superluminal most likely) represent a branch of an original civilization that started out to explore the stars from another galaxy. They certainly would have time given they are from the older parts, relative to the age of our galaxy.
Their descendants have long ago forgotten their place of origin and retain only the collective memory. They have been so long on their world(s) they barely recall their planetary origins. Perhaps one group was able to escape their world before the the red giant Aldeberan got an attitude? One or more of their social strata (using a "human" description of what may not capture an alien concept) came to earth (voluntary or involuntarily). ZOLINA (I hope I'm spelling correctly) listed many possibilities for their being here and all are valid.
It is possible that they did NOT directly interfere with earth's human evolution, but perhaps their comings (or goings) were noticed and marked and incorporated into archetype and myth. Perhaps they interfered enough such that the great carvings on the Nazca plains were carved for some purpose. Perhaps they interfered just enough to select out isolated civilizations (ie, Incas) that archeology demonstrate had a booming period of development (cosmic-related structures and calendars; great and mythical cities like Machu Picchu; possible lost cities and miles of tunnels in the Andes).
Then again not. Egyptians and the Easter Islanders were certianly capable of great building feats without aliens. They had slaves, after all. The Anasazi did not disappear as much as they were probably dispersed and absorbed when the land could not support them. Disappearing Anasazi, lost Atlantis, hermetic literature that suggest an "underground stream", etc, all provide great mythology, though. Indeed some so-called interpreters of the hermetic works and myths can tie the Navajo to the Pueblo to the Maya and Inca (the place of Atlantis?), to ancient Crete, Greece, Provence, and ancient Egypt.
It is possible that this alien society ran it's course here. They tried to observe, live apart, or integrate or build for their comfort, or got lazy, abused their powers, killed each other, became couch potatoes. Whtever.
Perhaps some of their energy-being-ness was stored in some of the stones. Maybe this was a power lost or weakened as the diaspora progressed. Perhaps Nasedo is the last of his kind and the last entrusted with the stones. The stones, a gift from some time and place long forgotten, or for other purposes neither we nor they can conceive of. Cosmic Galactic Radiation? (it's real). Enough power that a shape shifter can sustain itself for millenia. (with part-time employment fostering Trickster myths of birds, wolves, men with dog heads, and what have you?).
And perhaps this being soon came to be alone, or nearly alone. What luck when some of it's kind may have landed in Roswell. Alone enough to want to have others around in any way they can be created/awakened. There might be a chance to steal some genetic material or steal pods (I know this is a big stretch). I think you have a hint of where this is going (or where it came). I think the visitor was running from both Government and another being. Perhaps this other want it's property back.
I have no clue. I just feel that the contents of the collective unconscious, the symbols and ancient clutural references are trying to tell us that the presence of the visitors may have been far longer than 1947. Their visions and memories may be in their genes. It certainly does not negate the fact that Nasedo may, indeed, be a recent presence (ie, from 1947 or thereabouts) but that there were also other nasedos before. The nasedos that contributed to the archetype and mythology such that River Dog knows what to do, even if he doesn't know why. By that, I mean, like the Sweat and Blessing Way ceremonies, these are passed down in the narrative tradition to explain (ie, the Beginning), and continue tradition, unity, protection of the society and the social order.
As I wrote on the SF of BB thread, the Old Man Archetype is the one who has the knowledge handed down from "the Others" the First Peoples or the Totem Animal. The Elder does not necessarily know the answers, only that within his/her power are the tools/rituals/tests of the initiation. This archetype is very ancient, from primitives to Arthurian tales to present tribal cultures. It is the Old Man/Womans/ Shaman's job to test those who come along who may be THE ONE or a descendant of the one (ie, Perceval in Grail myths). River Dog may even be a descendant or an alien hiding in plain sight.
This reminds me of another point. Tricksters are neither good nor evil. They manipulate events. They usually end up hoist by their own petard (ie, Merlin). I 'll try to find the book I have and five the title.
Sorry this is so long. LSS, I will try to get to the questions you posted a few days ago regarding what distinguishes us from them. Not much, theoretically. For instance, do they glow because the special effects want us to see the force or do others see it? I haven't seen any eps with this but perhaps it's more to the point that their eyes have the capacity to see the light spectrum that they emit. You all probably glow, we just can't see with our limited visible light spectrum. Manipulate matter? Matter is vibration, spin, EMFs, and electron outer shell number among other things. If they have the capacity to manipulate EMF and generate heat, then manipulating matter is not the issue. It's controlling it. How? Dunno.

Would appreciate any other interpretations. I agree with Kate (forgot your number, sorry). Ultimately its not where they are from or how long. Home is where the heart is. That point is going to be as central as trust, love, and responsibility , ie, what do you do with the power you have and also, if you have to make a choice between love and duty, what is the ethical and moral choice? Since they are asking the questions that triggered the grail-quest, are they reading to accept the answers and accept their place as knights/leaders, lovers/leavers?
Thoughts?
ROSta

stargazer__2000
Posts: 138  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 12:09 PM

There is so much here to absorb and respond to.
First to Leneba,thanks for putting my gut feelings into words. I knew "the heat" had less to do with Michael's reaction then the spiritual cleansing did. But the broken link with Max, the trust issue , is a great thought. My question would be, what caused Nasaro's violent reaction, did he not trust the Indians or is there an evil in both of them ? Or my thought was the simple separation, Nasaro was alone,michael broke off on his own,which puts them at risk.
As for the rocks being left behind(4),if a "sweat lodge" is the only thing that causes this reaction and Nasaro has learned what to stay away from, he might have not needed them anymore or they were left as part of the map as Michael observed.(how enlightened hes become.)
The water as Janet asked(2), I think is not water but a symbol again, like holy water to a Catholic or baptismal water.
I'm not sure if Michael was dying , because he was having these visions and insights which is what the sweat is suppose to evoke.
I loved the info on the V shaped constellation,Rostafehrian, I was wondering if it exists?
I still have to wade through Sf of SH but you mentioned the symbols, did you discuss the New Grange site near Dublin,they too have spiral symbols and is where the Irish tales first mention magic?
And last but not least,I'm still not sure that "the man" in River Dog is "Nasaro" in the Balance . I'm thinking the writers are leaving this vague. I listened specifically for river dog to call him something other than' the man'(in RD) and he doesn't. He refers to him as befriending him 40 years ago. Then in the Balance he mentions when he was a boy,(this precedes the man),Nasaro as he pronounces it, was not trusted by his people,an evil spirit,a direct opposite of what he said about 'The Man' in RD. Does anyone else see this? This means there are 2 aliens. But why doesn't he explain this to Max in the cave?

mayfae
Posts: 120  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 12:23 PM

i took michael's illness as a physical thing- either from the stuff riverdog was throwing on the fire or what he drank(they never said it was water)- in a few stories i've read involving native americans and vision quests/ rituals they take some kind of homegrown hallucinogen and meditate while they're on it
-as to the difference in the reactions of michael/nasedo- my initial thought was - maybe the pod squad are half human-
- another thing about this episode- riverdog- he's got the stones- i've got no problem with that- maybe nasedo just left them a starter set and he's got his own- my problem is that in RD(the ep)why does he a) not give max the stones b) tell them that there is nothing more he has for them and that they shouldn't bother coming back- i mean the guy could've croaked and noone else on that reservation seems to know anything so they wouldn't have gotten them- highly suspicious and no one questions him
-the spiritual cleansing/rebirth idea sounds nice- but there is no character change in michael after the whole expierience- i think it is more a religious take on a tribal ritual
[This message has been edited by mayfae (edited 03-30-2000).]

stargazer__2000
Posts: 138  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 03:39 PM

Just a bump to keep this up........................

Zolina
Member
Posts: 31  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 04:00 PM

Stargazer: that's a very interesting point about River Dog talking about meeting "Nasedo" and "The Man" at different ages. I didn't catch that at all. Maybe I need to watch the episodes more, lol. In addition, the alien that we've seen--the one that killed Hank--may be either of these two aliens or another one all together! That's one of the things I love about this show. The possibilities are endless!!

parisindy
Posts: 286  -- Registered: Jan 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 08:37 PM

talking about the heat...i don't think it's the heat alone that effects our pod squad....but a combination of heat and the ritual....or as said they would be dropping like flies in the desert.

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 26  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 08:54 PM

STARGAZER2000, very good pick up about River Dog's differing references to the time/age he first knew/interacted with Nasedo. I think the writers may have just been feeling their way through this early on, ie, there was not a firm backstory or committment to the character definition, development and direction that might be more evident by SH. I'll have to re-watch.
I also am not thinking that Mike was dying. I think his body was reacting in some way that is programmed, at least in his genes. Maybe process of changing. Perhaps in response to some environmental stressor, they start cocooning, much as a bacteria become spores which can theoretically survive millenia.
But I do agree that Michael's mental/spiritual state is involved. I tend to believe that the podsquad are hybrids and this may explain Mikes vs. one of the nasedo's reaction.
The V shaped constellation (if it is a constellation) is Taurus, and the "twinkling" one would be Aldeberan, a red giant. Check a link I posted on the SFofSH thread for the constellation or just search the web. On the other hand, perhaps some have seen the A&E and TLC and History channel programs on UFOs in recent weeks. All show the most controversial UFO sighting of just a few years ago of the large V-shaped light array seen in ?Texas?Arizona. Anyway, it also resembled the "constellation" Michael saw. Does anyone else know this sighting I'm referring to and/or have a link if it's on the web?
Water is very sacred and symbolic in Navajo and other cultures (ie, the lifeblood). I think RiverDog threw the water (or plants?) on the fire and the cleansing smoke caused the reaction.
MAYFAE, I think Michael may have changed his attitude somewhat, don't you think? He was able to say that there would be no more running away (altho' he reverts to habit in ID initially). But he "let them in" when in another ep he vowed to never let anyone in/get close to him.
I don't know why River Dog would still have the stones, either.
I would like to hear about the New Grange spirals. Give some links if you have any. The spirals and labyrinths are abundant in Celtic art, petroglyphs. Arthurian/grail myths were heavily influenced by Celtic mythology.
I forgot to continue a though in my post above. Nasedo (or nasedos) may have been the "newcomers" in 1947, and it is our pod squad who have been here, cocooned, for millenia (?the last of their kind on earth ?the receptacles for the collective unconscious of those remaining who knew they could not go on , perhaps lacking the stones or the stones were taken) That would be interesting, and would explain their memories and synchrony with ancient earth cultures and their peoples from "out there". It would also be consistent with Michael's images of (at least to me) an ancient looking cocoon.
What Mike sees and responds too may be quite different from what Max and/or Is respond to. I still believe Michael is different and has a different purpose/power. He emerged not strusting. How can that be unless he inherited/learned that disposition prior to his emergence. Where Max and Is felt each other and Michael, Michael did not feel them at least not in the same way. What do y'all think
Rosta.
(BTW, I sent this nearly same email this afternoon, pressed send, and it never appeared. It's floating around in the ether somewhere)
[This message has been edited by ROStaFEHRian (edited 03-30-2000).]

Kate6058
Posts: 1006  -- Registered: Jan 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 09:25 PM

Hey, my sci-fi friends... I am alive and well, I just haven't had a chance to catch up on this thread yet. I'll try to contribute tomorrow Till then, keep up the great posts!

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 26  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-30-2000 09:36 PM


Good to see you back here Kate6058. Look forward to hearing from you. Hope you can spend some more time here. I hate to seen these SF threads drop off the front page.
Rosta

Nemo
Posts: 192  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 03-30-2000 10:26 PM

About the V-shaped star formation: There is a prominent V like that in the constellation Taurus, as ROSta said. I don't know the southern constellations well (correct me if necessary, you Aussies or New Zealanders), but in northern skies I think the V in Taurus is the best candidate. Others (can't remember who) also said Taurus when the episode first aired. One thing I liked especially about that formation is that it includes the Hyades, a cluster of a few hundred stars, mainly similar to our sun, only about 100 light-years away. (Right in our neighborhood. That distance is only 0.1% of the diameter of our galaxy.) How tempting to think that one of the stars in that cluster might be our friends' former home. (But frustrating for Michael if the map doesn't tell which one!)
But I had to give up that idea. In SH it seems strongly implied that the aliens arrived from the Whirlwind Galaxy (a fictional spiral galaxy for which M51, the "Whirlpool" galaxy near the Big Dipper, appears to be the prototype). And Michael said their place was in Aries, and that it would be directly overhead in April. I am eager to see what significance that might have.
Meanwhile it seems clear that the Roswellian skies are at least partly fictional. They contain familiar formations and phenomena, but with some changes (that I think are intentional, to intensify the story, not just bloopers due to lack of information). Mostly "true to life" but not an exact copy. That's fine with me.
I would say the V in Taurus is the prototype for the one in the Roswell skies. Moving that V to Aries (adjacent to Taurus, as ROSta mentioned, but inconspicuous) is like the X-files changing the name of an Air Force base from March to April, as they did recently. Funny, for those who recognize the reference. Maybe also significant in some other way. I used to think it was a hint that the original aliens might be warlike, but then I learned that I was confusing Aries, the ram with the golden fleece, with Ares, the Greek god of war. (Unless the writers had me pegged well enough to count on that confusion.)
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-30-2000).]

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 07:38 AM

Don't want this to fall off, but don't have time right now to read and post. Will do so later this afternood. BUMP

mayfae
Posts: 120  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 09:24 AM

i do concede that there have been gradual changes in michael as well as max and isabel- but i dont think that the changes had anything to do with the spiritual cleansing- i attribute these changes to the evolving characters- before their secret got out they were all living private lives- and inter-action with others and relationships were/are both uncharted territories- they have been learning as they go- i think michael's initial "keeping unattached" philosophy was him rejecting this drastic change in his life along with trust issues- all changes in him have been a natural progression- there was no overnight change- as romantic the notion of rebirth may be, i just dont buy it(believe me i'd like to- but my reasoning points to an alien tripping out on a hallucinogen)
-anyway, that's just my opinion- and i'm happy to have somewhere to share it

stargazer__2000
Posts: 138  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 10:28 AM

At first, I thought that the 5 stones forming the V were 5 aliens, until Michael said it was a map. Then are we to assume they are from there, the V, or that it points the way to another area in the sky ? Since it was not drawn on the walls, like the rest , it's a very important symbol.
To answer ROStaFEHrian: I have no links about Newgrange. But here's some info. It's alittle no. of Dublin, in Co. Meath. Once a year on Winter Solstice the interior lights up from a small slit above the door for few minutes. It predates Stonehenge and the Egyptian pyramids, dating ~ 3000 bc. and I have no idea why no one knows about this place. It's a massive 330' round structure, 35' high, all faced with white quartzite blocks from hundreds of miles so. of Dublin, and these large egg-shaped grey stones are studded "randomly", over the surface. These are from several hundred miles to the north. When I saw them , they reminded me of patterns of stars. But since there was restoration and they thought this was merely decoration they could be out of place.
There's a low narrow, long tunnel you go thru to get to a central chamber. Inside are 3 smaller ones. The inside ceiling is dovetailed and vaulted. there are patterns carved on the inner stones, 3 swirling spirals for one.
Outside there are alot of carvings as well,Burial mounds, stone circles, etc.
There's alot of myths assoc. with the area.ie the burial place of the kings of Tara. The fatally wounded Diarmuid ? was said to brought here to put" aerial life into him ". And in general, thought of as the home of small magical people who the ancient Irish were afraid of, they were also thought to be stranded visitors of some kind.

SF
Posts: 63  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 03-31-2000 10:37 AM

Thanks for all the great thought provoking posts. I'll have to stew on some of them before I even come up with something worthwhile.
Wanted to get this back to the top of the board, and remind all of you that we shouldn't forget about Isabel and Alex's conversation in the Crashdown and the UFO museum. Isabel at least appears to be of the same apinion as peanut-and-me (SF of SH) that they are just more human than human...
[This message has been edited by SF (edited 03-31-2000).]

Elliott
Posts: 733  -- Registered: Jan 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 01:16 PM

SF: I agree that those Alex/Isabel scenes were revealing.
Like Isabel said that they feel pain. Of course they would, but I also assumed they would just stop it immediately once they did.
But Is's speech at the Crashdown was typical of any marginalized minority: wanting to get across that they are 'just like everyone else.'

LimeWarp
Posts: 91  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 01:30 PM

Wow! I really enjoy all the science fiction threads. Everyone has such wonderful thoughts, opinions, and ideas. I don't have time to add anything right now, but I will be back to comment later.

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 25  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 01:32 PM

A lot of interesting interpretations in this thread. I'd like to add a few thoughts.
Though Micheal identifies the V-constellation in "Blind Date" as Aries, I don't think it really *is* Aries. Or Taurus for that matter. Actually, the information given about Aries in "Blind Date" was incorrect anyway.
Taurus seems like a better guess because it's a brighter grouping of stars. But it isn't as large at the pattern used on the show. Frankly, I think the staff just made this one up. Or it's a conglomeration of other stars from more traditional formations. The only really recognizeable constellation we've seen in the show's skies has been Orion -- both in "Into the Woods" and through Liz's telescope in "Independence Day."
If it *is* made up, that's fine by me, I just wish they'd get the basic astronomy stuff right most of the time

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 26  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 01:35 PM


STARGAZER2000, thank you for the information.I found this link. Check out the great spirals.
http://www.paddynet.com/island/newgrange/ancient.html
What in photographs appears to be a spiral and/or labyrinth (in the scene where Michael is walking over the symbols on the ground) looking down on it appears also to be a solar system map. It would be great if someone has the ability to snap a screen shot of it. I'm having trouble catching it with the pause button!
Enjoyed your post NEMO. Everyone check out NEMOs post on the "..what the V-stars mean?" thread. Do you think the Aries constellation may have other significance, ie, they must gather in the desert when it is overhead in order to receive another "sign"? I do hope this is addressed. I think the star regions/systems are related. Thanks for that XFile tidbit about the April Base-we were talking about that a few days ago elsewhere.
Thaks for your reply and thoughts MAYFAE. I certainly agree that there was no major change there. Just a small step for Michael. I'm less certain any hallucinogen was used but that is certainly historically accurate and still a possibility. I do think the Sweat and Blessingway use water, though. But then..I don't know.
Rosta

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 25  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 01:51 PM

And another comment on the symbols from the map.
ROStaFEHRian already commented on the similarities between the map symbols and petroglyphs.
I think it's actually a lot simpler than that. That map actually has recognizeable symbols on it when you take a closer look. It's easier if you look at the scenes where Michael is standing on the enlarged version in his "dream."
There's one spiral pattern that's looks an awful lot like our own solar system -- complete with the sun, nine planets and rings around Saturn. Michael actually places one of the glowing rocks in the center of this symbol, right where our sun would be.
Also, the X-shaped figure at the bottom left hand corner of the map looks like what could be four *pods* interconnected by diagonal lines. I'm not sure if that refers to Nacedo and the three teens. If it does, then why are there *five* stones?
The other recognizeable shape was the squiggly lines at the bottom of the drawing -- where the "point" of the V of glowing stones seemed to balance. That looks like a mountain or a rock formation to me -- just like the formation Michael turns and sees over his shoulder in the vision. I'm wondering if that's the desert location of the pods where the three of them "hatched."
As for the swirly symbol from Isabel's amulet and the orb that Liz and Max dug up, and the Saturn-shaped glyph that Michael tried to use to summon Nacedo, I haven't a clue. Nor am I certain of the other "patterns" which actually look more like writing.
Some very interesting stuff if you look at it closely. I feel certain we haven't heard the last of the "map."

stargazer__2000
Posts: 138  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 02:27 PM

Thanks again ROStaF.
The link brought back memories. I was there this past summer. It's so much more intense in person ( I thought Stonehenge was going to be the highlight of trip.)
First, I have to look at the wall/dream symbols again, but I agree with Tabasco cat?
I saw the caterpillar segments for lack of a better word and thought" ok 5 segments, one broken open, that means 5 aliens, and one left happy group ". Then they say it's a map? Figurative or Literal? Then we see it over Liz's head, I would hope the writers aren't making up constellations? Even though it's not that bright but Orion looks alittle off from the SH shot.

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 26  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 02:49 PM

Hi TABASCO_CAT
ITA. That's exactly the spiral symbol I am referring to in my post just above..the blown-up one Michael is standing over that I have been trying to freeze-frame and copy. It looks like a solar system. It would be cool if someone could draw or snap it and post it.
LOL, "caterpillar segments"! Good description. I also thought it looked like of "pea-pods" and one little pea popping out at the end!
I also agree with Tabasco_Cat that it is probably all very simple. You are probably right about the mountain range.
It appears that this is a map, marker, and linear narrative all in one.
R

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 25  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 03:15 PM

Well, I loved the cinematography in Michael's "visions" so much that I wound up watching them in slo-mo a few times and started coming up with some wild ideas. (Yes, I have no life )
But it's worth a slo-mo peek not only at the enlarged "map" in Michael's dream, but also the pencil-drawn map that Max has in the teaser and the one Nacedo left on the cave wall. The last is really the toughest to make out, but in a way, the fainter relief almost brings it more into focus.
The "caterpillar" shapes sound interesting as well now...I didn't look at those as closely.
Off for yet another viewing....

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 05:11 PM

Whew--trying to catch up with this thread...and I FINALLY got to actually see the episode.
ROSTA--I agree...I think it is the smoke not the water that is the pivotal element that sends Michael running out of the tent.
By the way--any idea why Eddie concludes that Michael "failed" the test? (And exactly WHAT was the test?) I wondered because Riverdog (when he finally confronts Max) doesn't seem as angry as Eddie would have us believe.
In terms of trust--did you notice how Riverdog reported that Nesedo "had" to trust Riverdog because his life depended on it? As if trust was not something he would normally have accorded Riverdog?
And why is it that in the previous episode the woman selling jewelry warned Liz to stay away from Riverdog? Did it have anything to do with his prior association with Nesedo? And why was Riverdog so spooked outside of Liz's car when he heard those sounds?
Questions...Questions...Questions
Anyone think they have the answers?
LSS

Leneba
Posts: 175  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 09:27 PM

Look what happens when I'm gone for a couple of days! Everyone comes up with great thoughts and theories that are going to require some contemplation on my part before I can contribute something intelligent and coherent. Sheesh!

Briefly:
Tabasco Cat--great insights into the symbols on the map. I hadn't thought to take a closer look and try to decipher them myself.
LSS--I came across the spiral symbol in the graphics of a site for sweat lodges. I just did a search for sweat lodges and came up with a number of sites. Many were hokey and probably had incorrect information, some were selling products, and a few seemed like they contained accurate information. I think the one with the spiral symbol was selling manufactured sweat lodges. They didn't address their reason for using that symbol. It just happened to catch my eye.
As far as the test goes, I think River Dog was testing Michael to see if he was an alien or not. The test simply ended up having some unintended ramifications. Now what I wonder is if Eddie is privvy to River Dog's knowledge. He seems upset on River Dog's behalf, but we don't know if River Dog told Eddie the truth about why he was testing Michael, or for that matter why he tested Max and Liz.
Nemo and others--thanks for the astronomy information! Very interesting.
Here's a question. Are the cocoons different from the pods that they originally emerged from? Michael's vision implies that they are the same, but I wonder how this could be? I got the impression that the pods would be more substantial.

stargazer__2000
Posts: 138  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 03-31-2000 10:06 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LSS:

"By the way--any idea why Eddie concludes that Michael "failed" the test? (And exactly WHAT was the test?) I wondered because Riverdog (when he finally confronts Max) doesn't seem as angry as Eddie would have us believe."
-----------------
The test, being that the sweat would make an alien sick in about a minute. Max betrayed River Dog's trust my telling a non- alien(Michael),or so he thinks . Eddy is told by RD that Max is no longer welcome. So Eddy doesn't know about the test nor that Michael getting sick is the sign that Michael in fact has passed the test. When RD does finally find out that Michael is indeed ill,(and has passed the test), he returns to help and is very nice to Max, because he misjudged him.
There are still holes in the story, but if you consider that they can't put every word in , like Michael never "says" that Max sent him, but RD just knows.

Nemo
Posts: 192  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 04-01-2000 12:00 AM

Tabasco_Cat, about the "swirly symbol" seen in Isabel's necklace, the childhood beach photograph, the burned symbol in the woods, Michael's message to Nasedo, and on the orb: I think that's a stylized representation of a spiral galaxy, apparently the Whirlwind Galaxy that Max has a memory of (as seen by Liz) in SH. There was a thread I can't find now, called The Whirlwind Galaxy, including links to stunning photographs of a real spiral galaxy, the Whirlpool Galaxy, which makes a good example because it's comparatively nearby and seen face-on. Here are a few links I found, but the others, I thought, were better. They showed a really convincing resemblance to that spiral symbol. http://www.seanet.com/~filmdos/m111/m51back.htm http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap951218.html

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-01-2000 09:10 AM

Nemo:
Great work--I really like the idea of a stylized galaxy!!! [God--why did a whole line of Roswell jewelry just pop into mind?]
Leneba--As far as the sweat being the "test" ...if you will remember, te first test occured when Liz went back to the reservation--a meeting/test that Riverdog had set up. So, if Max had not come along, one would assume tht it would have been Liz who would have been "tested". No one expected Max. Max's passing of the test had something to do (it is implied) with the bringing "light" into the darkness (Rosta--you should have a heyday with the mythic ramifications of that!).
But no one knew that Michael was going to visit Riverdog. And Riverdog was already in the sweat--therefore it is logical to suggest that the sweat itself was not "set up" as a test. But perhaps secondarily BECAME a test. The question I was raising is--what would it have entailed if Michael had passed it? Did he have to stay in longer? Not cough? Etc. Of course our writers weren't concerned with the details of the incident--but as SF folk we can't help but wonder!!!

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 25  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-01-2000 09:54 AM

In response to Nemo's post -- the spiral galaxy comparison is probably a good guess. I'm assuming this has something to do with the aliens' home *directly* because it's so familiar to them and appears on so many things. Somebody mentioned a kind of "collective unconscious" for the pod squad in another post and that's a good way of looking at it.
But there seems to have been a continuity blunder with that. I too thought this was the glowing symbol that Nacedo left for them in "Into the woods" -- but in "Blind Date," Michael ID's that symbol as the saturn-shaped one instead, and that's the pattern he burns into the ground.
More confusion I guess. Although Michael fit a glowing rock into both symbols on the map.
As far as the inconsistencies with River Dog go, I don't think it's possible to resolve the differences in the character between "River Dog" and "The Balance." We were just discussing this on USENET the other day, and kind of concluded that the writers just liked what they saw of the character in "River Dog" and decided to bring him back, perhaps in a different capacity in other shows. Because of that, many of his comments and actions in "The Balance" don't exactly make sense in the context of his 'tude in "River Dog."
I guess that's the way it goes in TV Writing Land sometimes. Personally, I prefer Cryptic!RiverDog to Kindly!RiverDog, but that's just me

LSS
Member

Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-01-2000 10:09 AM

Tabasco_cat:
Rosta posted an interesting analysis of Riverdog in light of the mythic overtones of the Roswell universe on the SF of SH thread (which still surfaces from time to time on the first two pages of the list).
Any ideas as to where they might take the Riverdog character--and what is the basis of his attachment to our aliens? At first one got the sense he was simply fullfilling an old promise. But his concern for Michael (so much so that Michael even hopes he's the "missing father") seems to imply a more far-reaching interest/investment.

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 26  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-01-2000 12:43 PM

Hi NEMO- I took it for granted that the consensus was that the symbol on the pendant, on Max's paper and on the wall were a stylized representation of the Whirlwind galaxy. I was referring to another symbol.
I think I may have contributed to some of the confusion by bringing up spirals some time ago around that same thread.
I thought, from screen snaps (I had only seen the ep for the first time this week) that Michael was walking over a spiral/labyrinth. Given the cocoon image, I though it was appropriate. But after seeing the episode, and seeing an over-head shot of the symbol Michael was stepping over, the "spiral" actually looked like a solar system, as I mentioned on that other thread.
The "whirlwind" is as ubiquitous as the spiral/labyrinth in petroglyphs, including Anasazi, and there is a whirlwind spirit. Spirals are associated with womb, emergence, transformation, and water.
I agree with TABASCO-CAT that the symbols may be quite simple, but it is probably no accident, and clever, that the story creators used rather ubiquitous symbols.
LSS- I, too, am quite confused about RiverDog. Without even trying, his character fits an archetype in mythology, But I also think that the writers made some midstream direction changes in the character that contribute the confusion.
Like LENEBA, I wonder how much Eddie knows. I think Eddie has more knowledge than we are privy to at this time. The writers may be keeping his character vague purposely just in case.
LENEBA, I also thought the pods might be different from cocoons. But now I am not sure. I have the impression that they may cocoon in response to some type of threat or stimuli such as Michael was exposed to. Sort of like a sporulating.
I raised this before, I don't think it was addressed unless I missed it:
Riverdog tells Liz to make sure he (Max) deserves her trust. I found that odd that he says that to her. What do you think of this remark? What does he know of Max he ain't a-tellin?
The nature of what constitues a test is certainly different and that has to be significant.
I very much agree with LSS's logic about the fact that Max came unexpectedly and that the Sweat secondarily may have served as the test. Excellent observations.
Some of the scene got cut off on my VCR, so I am not sure what is glowing in Max' hands when River Dog tells him he passed the test. Is it the pendant? Did he pick up something, ie a stone?
I like the light symbolism, LSS, but I'll have to deal with that after I get from behind the wall of work I have to cimb over this weekend. Personally, I am getting tired of RiverDog "testing" me this way. *humph* May I cocoon now, please?
I think this motif may come back again: RiverDog says to Liz in TB: "..You must take a step back..you must not stop the flow..." Hmmm.
In that "caterpillar" or "box-car" or "pea-pod" petroglyph where Michael places one of the stones..note that one of the little "peas" that has popped out first is the one that lights up. Is this Max, the bringer of light..or Michael?
TABASCOCAT, I have used the term collective unconscious many times. I mentioned that I thought the stone, among other things, mught be a receptacle of stored consciousness in an early post. I wondered yesterday if they might be the receptacles for those stored "memories" and lives of the last remaining of their people.
BTW- I found the reference for the V-lights, "the Phoenix Lights". I had taped over most of the programs from TLC with Roswell, but left that segment sandwiched between 2 eps!
Rosta

Nemo
Posts: 192  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 04-01-2000 01:46 PM

Why does River Dog tells Liz to make sure Max deserves her trust? Well, maybe because the *last* Visitor he had dealings with seemed to earn his people's trust, then did something questionable (kill Atherton? R. D. doesn't know exactly what happened, having witnessed the death only from a distance). And, Rosta, you made the suggestion that, if the Nasedo that RD's people thought they knew and trusted was later perceived to do harm, it could be an impersonation by the shape-shifter. But RD may not know about him yet, so now perhaps he doesn't know quite what to make of Nasedo, and cautions Liz accordingly in case Max proves to be similarly inconsistent.
Interesting, that even if RD has misgivings about Nasedo's trustworthiness, he still keeps his promise. His sense of obligation is not easily set aside. I love it.
Incidentally, when RD spoke his word for "visitor" didn't it sound like Nasero, with the 'r' slightly rolled or trilled as in several languages other than English? (or like that little flip that singers often use for 'r') Maybe this sublety is lost on Michael who rounds it off to a "d" and most of us follow. Or maybe it really is a d; I'm not quite sure.

Drcy
Posts: 332  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 04-01-2000 01:49 PM

Hi everybody been hearing about these threads even saw them...now I come in when I have so much to catch up on....
I dont know if this was addressed or not, but i was reading over the info about Newgrange and it said that the theory is that this site was some form of actual sun worship etc...OK direct copy and paste here.......

There is much speculation as to the meaning of these complex designs and many consider them to have solar symbology as sun worship was the most widely spread cult in pre-historic Europe. One of the most interesting features of the mound, particularly in view of the fact that it is a feature unique to Newgrange, is the roof-box above the entrance to the passageway. It consists of two low side-walls, a back corbel and a roofstone; and it is through this gap that the dawn sun beams on the winter solstice. Its purpose is unknown, but some have speculated that the builders: must have held the sun in such high regard that they gave it a separate entrance.

Ok what really stands out here is the post earlier in this thread about programming..which is actually is pointed out more in SH where they have the visions......ok back to what I was getting at...Lets assume that the spiral's that are seen in the balance where a form of sun worship and that our pod squad's people have been here since this "sun worshiping" time.....could this have been one of the reasons that the Lodge gave Micheal a adverse reaction.....is it actually possible that in some way they actually did worship and do rituals in earlier years that was programmed into them to make them react badly to overwhelming heat or to the cleansing of the "soul" in the sweatlodge.
My other theory is also......what if in the end they are not allowed to find out about there history........and that when Micheal went in here it formed a reaction, so that in the end he could not completely be informed....cause as we all know to be in "balance" we really have to know about ourselves and our feelings.....but this isnt one that I put much faith in.....cause why would Nesedo have an adverse reaction...unless he is not sure also..or he is just evil..etc.
White quartz is known for its energy-dispersing properties and it may, therefore, have been used to absorb and channel its life-giving energy, -------I thought that that statment was interesting to speculate on with the Powers that we actually know that our young aliens have. Its also telling about the stones in a way..dont you think...like how they have energy and etc.
Ok so I am ramblin just wanted to get someone else's take on what they read about these stones and more importantly the symbols that are ON them......which is directly linked to our pod squad.

Leneba
Posts: 175  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-01-2000 04:41 PM

Nemo, I was sure the Visitor's name was "Nasero" until I saw it on this site as "Nasedo". Personally, I go with the latter because I assume the folks running this site have some official information on the subject. I still think it sounds like "Nasero", though.
LSS, just think what would have happened if Liz had shown up without Max and had been found lacking! What would River Dog have done to her?
As far as Michael's test is concerned, River Dog had no way of knowing ahead of time that Michael would show up at the Res at that particular time, let alone that he would join the sweat. That is, if we assume he's just an ordinary wise old Indian guy and is not working in concert with Nasedo (my paranoia on the trio's behalf is in overdrive just thinking about this). Still, it's an odd coincidence that Michael ends up participating in the same ritual that threatened Nasedo's life. Did River Dog simply take advantage of the opportunity, knowing that Michael was connected to Max? How would he even know that Michael and Max know each other in the first place? Is it possible that Eddie was instructed to direct Michael to the sweat lodge? There are too many coincidences to make me believe that the whole thing was accidental.

stargazer__2000
Posts: 138  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-01-2000 07:21 PM

Drcy,
Since I mentioned the newgrange site I guess I better address you.
Since people were making a comparison between common ancient symbols and our pod squad, I brought it up to show yet another site that " most people have never heard of." Not that it really has alot to do with Roswell. Common factors are: symbols for writing, sun worship,the use of three spirals(like the holy trinity or our trio), belief in stones containing powers,and that the inhabitants had mystical powers(and may have been not-of-this-earth visitors). ps it is believed the locals killed off these peoples out of fear,same as the anasazi and those sky people? of peru.
The link ROStaFEHrian added showed it looks alittle like a flying saucer, and in person you'd think it was built in the 1970's, not 3000 bc. The authors might have taken something from Newgrange??? But for me I just thought the place was fabulous and I had an eiree feeling the entire time I was there. If anyplace on earth was built by aliens, that's the place I'd vote for.
Leneba,
I too noted that RD pronounced it,"Nasaro"(see my post on 3/30.) If he mispronounced it , the writers really should have changed the script since this was RD's bit of info. and I did hear Isabel mispronounce it, right after , as Nasado.

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-01-2000 09:16 PM

Leneba:
Another perplexing issue is why does Riverdog seem more attached to Michael than to Max? In "In the Woods" it is Michael he comes for, not Max. And Riverdog does not seem happy to see Max and Isabell at the symbol. And in "Riverdog" he refuses to extend the relationship when Max asks if he can come back again. ?????????????
Odd........LSS

Kate6058
Posts: 1006  -- Registered: Jan 2000   -- posted: 04-01-2000 09:43 PM

LSS - I wondered that too. It could mean anything... we think that Max is the "leader"; Michael could be anything else. Perhaps he actually is directly related to Nasedo in some way, and River Dog senses the connection there. Or maybe he just senses that Michael is the lost soul of the group (this totally has nothing to do with this, but thinking that Max is the leader and Michael is the lost one, what is Isabel?? We only have a few assumptions about her based on some things she said to Topolsky in Monsters. Her character is severly underdeveloped. Anyway...) and he wants to try to give him some support/answers. River Dog seems to sense a lot... he's able to see the tension Maria feels when she sees Liz step out of the circle and calms her because he knows she really feels something for Michael. I've always thought that River Dog (and Eddie, even) knows way more than he's told at this point; I think they'll become important allies to MM&I in the last episodes.
But with the return of Nasedo, could there be a possible River Dog/Nasedo reunion? What would happen then?

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 25  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-02-2000 01:29 AM

A couple of last thoughts before I nod off at my keyboard...
Did somebody ask about Max's test in "River Dog?" That was when River Dog tripped Liz or otherwise caused her to stumble -- putting out her flashlight. Max used his powers to create a "glow" of light so he could find her. As soon as Max used his powers to make the light, River Dog knew Max was an alien -- thus he passed the test. (Hmm...one wonders why his test of Michael was so much more severe.)
As for the change in his character, I really do think that "River Dog" was written in such a way that they may not have expected to bring him back, or not as soon. Doing so forced a number of unexpected and unexplained alterations in his attitude. He is *much* more forthcoming with information in "The Balance," less dire about the nature of "Nacedo," and a kindlier, gentler and wiser seeming sort of person.
I wasn't crazy about this change, nor the fact they gave us little narrative evidence as to the cause behind it. Maybe that last is nitpicking.
But the use of River Dog as the "wise, old, spiritual guide" is an example of an otherwise hip and original show reverting to type. I'm sure there's a cultural precedent for River Dog's character, but one place that ROSWELL is really lacking is in providing an accurate vision of the Native American and Hispanic influences on New Mexican culture. I'm talking in everyday life now. With the exception of Valenti's deputy (played by Michael Horse), the only place we ever see NA characters in RW is on the reservation.
This is turning into a rant, so I'll end there. But I really would like to see NA characters on the show used as something more than plot devices. And in a way, that's *all* River Dog has been up till this point.
Two cents worth...

Leneba
Posts: 175  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-02-2000 04:49 PM

Tabasco Cat, (sorry to continue the rant)I agree with your concern over the use of River Dog and the other NA characters as plot devices. I've discussed this topic at length with a friend who happens to be Indian (the term she prefers) and she finds this pretty upsetting. She would like to see more characters like Eddie and the deputy...regular guys of NA ancestry. She was concerned about the sweat lodge scene, that it would promote the idea that Indians regularly sit around and take hallucinogenic drugs to have visions as well as other falsehoods.
Being of Mexican descent myself, don't even get me started on *that* topic. Actually, I don't mind TOO much that we haven't seen the hispanic influences. It would be nice if they had more, but the lack hardly interferes with my enjoyment of the show.
In this sort of situtation, I personally try to ignore the little offensive bits and hope that as the characters become more developed, they will shed some of the stereotypical dialogue and behavior. I think we've already seen River Dog head in that direction. In Into The Woods, when he injures his ankle, he seems more real and ordinary.
LSS, I too noticed that River Dog seemed paricularly keen on Michael specifically. When he saw Max and Isabel, he said "What are THEY doing here?" in an alarmed manner. Strange, considering that they would be just as interested in finding out about the sign in the woods as Michael. The next logical step would be for River Dog to object to their participation in looking for the sign. Instead, he shows them where it will appear without any hesitation. His behavior is incongruous, both in this episode and between River Dog and Balance.
Kate, I too am looking forward to the Nasedo/River Dog reunion...assuming they're not one and the same.
I think Eddie knows something strange is afoot, but probably doesn't know that our trio are actually aliens. I'm curious to see how his character developes as well. I think he's one of the more interesting minor characters.
DRCY, I've been thinking about those stone too. Despite the semi-translucent properties, I don't think that we can assume they are ordinary quartz. Did you notice how both Michael and Isabel hold two at a time in one hand in Independence Day? They both kind of swirl one around the other as they contemplate them. I wonder if that was meant to be significant? Hmmm. I'll have to give it more thought.

Leneba
Posts: 175  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-02-2000 05:34 PM

I just realized why the way Isabel and Michael handle the stones seems familiar. A friend gifted me with this "Iron Ball For Health" set. There are two of them and they are about the same size as those stones. According to the directions, these heavy chiming balls are to be held in one hand and moved in such a way as to cause them to both rotate and revolve. Supposedly this activity builds up physical strength and removes diseases by stimulating various acupuncture points on the hand. Whether this is a cheesy gimic for ignorant Westerners or based on authentic Chinese traditions, I have no idea. I just wonder if it has any applications for the way Michael and Isabel held those stones. Maybe that was just a quirk on the actors' part and I'm reading too much into it!

thescoobygang
Posts: 69  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-02-2000 07:44 PM

If I can quote Keanu Reeves from the Matrix, "WHOA!" These are some serious analytical discussions going on here. Are things always this intense? I'm reading some pretty darn good theories here. I have a theory about Liz that's really wild, but right now it's still a work in progress.....

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-02-2000 08:33 PM

thescoobygang:
Yeah--intense about SF is what we are about! Welcome!!! What is your theory about Liz??
NOTE: If you like this there are two other threads you should look at: The SF of SH and The SF of BB.

RemyS
Posts: 86  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-02-2000 11:21 PM

I thoroughly enjoy these SF threads. I do not feel qualified to give any weighted theories on the subject (my strengths lie in music and accounting), but I am an avid SF fan. Keep up the good work everyone. These threads are so intriguing and intelligent. I do have a question, though. Perhaps it has been answered and I missed it, but I have read this thread twice and do not think it has been addressed. (One of the other SF threads, maybe?)
?? During Michael's healing, he envisioned being greeted by Alex, kissed by Maria, hugged and kissed by Isabel, and approached by Max. Before Max could complete any type of greeting (be it a hug, handshake, or whatever), Liz appears walking toward the two and Max markedly stops, looks towards her, smiles, and in essence seems to make a choice between the two right there. It causes Michael to look behind him to see what has stopped Max "dead in his tracks". Personally, I felt that this short, but powerful scene held major significance. I'm not sure exactly what that significance might be just yet, but it seemed to suggest great importance to the on-going plot. Two thoughts keep going through my head as I envision that scene. One, that Max is glad to see that Liz has "come back to the fold" so to speak (after stepping back as the ceremony began). Of course, this would contradict what he said to her at the end of Balance when he told her she had every right to doubt. The second thought is that Max makes his decision then and there that Liz is more important to him than any ties or future with his fellow aliens.
This scene continues to haunt me. I would appreciate any thoughts any of you have on this, as I highly value your opinions. Thank you.

RemyS
Posts: 86  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-02-2000 11:45 PM

Good grief....Here it is, after 2:30 am ET and I'm still up contemplating that scene I mentioned above. (Oh well, I never did require much sleep.)
I just had another thought. Since this is Michael's vision, perhaps it had nothing to do with Max' feelings for Liz, but what Michael either perceived them to be, or what he sensed will take place when and if Max ever had to choose. If this is the case, perhaps the "trust" issue for Michael has not yet nor ever will be resolved when it comes to Max. ????? Or, could it be that he will realize that "love" is the stronger of the emotions (after seeing Max' reaction to Liz), and open up more to Maria to find his own personal/human destiny? ?????
Enough for now.....I'm off to get some sleep. Goodnight, everyone.

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 25  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-03-2000 02:43 AM

It's funny you mention this. When I first saw "TB" back in November, I too came away from this scene thinking that Liz somehow blocked Max from going to Michael.
But watching a few more times and listening to other fan opinions led me to think that this sequence was about Liz overcoming her fear and stepping back in -- nothing more.
And I probably base that feeling on the remainder of the vision -- when the kids were shown overlapping images of the characters now -- and Michael's reaction to Max when he woke. Since there was nothing negative expressed in either instance, I really don't see that scene as Liz impeding Max, or their relationship holding Max back from the others.
IMHO, there are a lot of inconsistencies in the situations and the behavior of the characters in "TB," making it a very flawed episode. On the surface, the story it has to tell is very compelling, but once you start to pull on a few threads of inconsistency here and there, the entire structure starts to unravel. I happen to think they tried to cram too much into one hour in this one.
Then again, that has the unexpected benefit of giving us a lot to talk about

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 25  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-03-2000 02:53 AM

And just one more comment about Michael's last vision in "TB..."
I really, really liked seeing them as little kids in the desert. The way they overlapped the scenes with them as teens was nicely done, and very moving.
But part of me wishes we might also have seen little kid versions of Liz, Maria and Alex as well. Granted, the human trio was nowhere near the pod squad when they "hatched," but this was all symbolic, so they could have made it work, I think.
Specifically, they could have had the younger versions of Max, Isabel and Michael walking toward the "headlights" in the end (similar to when they were discovered) and shown Liz, Maria and Alex sort of waiting for them.
I guess this stems from my current frustration over the way the human side of the gang gets so quickly shut out of a lot of things -- especially when it comes to making decisions. That's because I tend to see them more as equals. Liz, Maria, and to a lesser extent, Alex, all have nearly as much to lose if the aliens are exposed.
Perhaps Katims and Co. don't see it that way, which is fine. Any thoughts?

RemyS
Posts: 86  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-03-2000 06:10 PM

***Bump***

stargazer__2000
Posts: 138  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-03-2000 07:03 PM

This is actually a reply concerning the 'symbols' but Tabasco Cat made a statement about the "inconsistencies", that caused me to post.
I spent last night re-looking at the drawings on the cave, vs the drawing Max made, vs Michael's vision when he's standing on the "map" as he calls it, vs the next couple of times you see the drawing, vs the ending. Well there are alot of "inconsistencies".
First, I couldn't really see the cave wall in RD but I remembered one symbol Max had his hand over and this doesn't reappear again anywhere. Then I believe Rostafehrian asked about the symbol michael was standing above and someone said it was our solar system,but it was odd in the vision shot, 4 decaying orbits with 4 planets at most, you only see a total of 7 planets and Saturn's rings in the drawing Max does and there's three different drawings. Advance the tape and see how each drawing actually changes ,they are all different.
Final thought, I realized in Michael's vision the ' V ' appeared above the jagged mt. top that is also on the wall (the map). And I'm thinking it's an arrow again, pointing down to a spot on earth, maybe where they'll find the ship/pods or all 5 aliens will meet? who knows ,it could have pointed to Roswell.

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-04-2000 06:50 AM

Rosta:
You will be happy to know that a junior member posted on the "debate" thread (Tess/Max vs. Liz/Max) and tried to resolve the tension by appealing to the idea that Roswell is a quest narrative and the M/T crisis fits into that mythic paradigm!! Since this "amx"'s 12th post, I doubt that she has read the SF of SH thread. I referred her to it and to your analysis. You might want to go off line and contact amx--the profile said she is an arch/law student in Australia. I advised her to do the same thing to you. Great minds...
LSS

Leneba
Posts: 175  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-04-2000 07:09 PM

RemyS, you bring up an important point. Did Michael's vision come from within, or was it "given" to him? Initially I assumed he had made some sort of connection with his friends. He certainly wakes up aware of his surroundings and what has taken place. I took parts of his vision to symbolize the healing, or rebalancing process, the way someone with cancer might visualize themselves in a suit of armor battling a foe. But what about the symbols and the knowledge of how to use the stones? I think that was part of the collective unconscious we've made mention of in the past. He was tapping into some knowledge that Max and Isabel probably share, but have been unable to access. Which still leaves the question of the meaning behind the Max and Liz scene in his vision. I suppose it would be most logical to assume that this part is Michael's perception, since Max seemed completely focused on healing Michael in reality. If he had been distracted by Liz during that process, I think he might have experienced some of the problems that River Dog warned about. Hmmm.

Kate6058
Posts: 1006  -- Registered: Jan 2000   -- posted: 04-04-2000 07:29 PM

RemyS -- A while ago there was a thread started by someone who doesn't like Liz and a huge debate went on about how selfish she is and wasn't there for Max during Michael's last vision scene in the Balance. I tried proving the point that although she started out on the outside of the circle, she ended up quickly getting past her fear (of losing Max, not of aliens) and stepping into the healing. Michael saw this in his vision... but did anyone else? Could everyone who was helping the healing see what was going on, or could only the one who was being healed. On that Liz thread I said that Max's faith in Liz should have been renewed when he saw her step into the circle (and I assumed that he could see her because group connection sequences in the books are experienced by everyone... I get the books and the show too tangled sometimes ), but now I don't think that Max, Liz, or anyone else but Michael saw those things.
So... I think that Michael seeing Max stop on his way to sharing some kind of deep glance (I assume they would have done that instead of hugging or shaking hands) was just another cleverly placed bit of foreshadowing. Since Max healed Liz, the tension has grown between Max and Michael... RemyS and anyone else really interested in this should check out the spoiler board, and if any of you have seen the previews for Crazy, there's a Max/Michael scene that I think has a lot to do with this... you know what I mean.
I think that in the long run, Max's devotion to Liz is going to help Michael and Isabel realize how much they have on Earth, but in the meantime, there's a huge wedge being driven between them, and that's going to lead to major problems with a certain adult alien and matters of trust among the trio.

Kate6058
Posts: 1006  -- Registered: Jan 2000   -- posted: 04-04-2000 09:51 PM

bumping... and LSS, I was wondering if we are going to have these threads closed down after the episode has past or can we keep posting on the old ones?

SF
Posts: 63  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 04-05-2000 04:43 AM

Kate,
I tend to agree that the others didn't see what Michael was seeing, and I'm basing that on Maria's hurt feelings at Michael hugging Isabel after he gets out of the cocoon and not saying thank you, or making any connection with her. However in the vision, she was the only one he kissed, which is way more intimate than a hug, but that didn't seem to count with her. Possibly because she didn't see it???

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-05-2000 06:10 AM

Kate:
I just answered you but seem to have lost the post. I'll try again.
I have kept the three threads on the first 2-3 pages by intentionally posting or bumping thus far. The only way that I can see that they would have to be closed is if they get too long. I have toyed with the idea of an index because we are constantly refering to past discussions. Ultimately, I want to archive those posts containing substantive discussions for future reference. I think that posters have done a great analytical job and I'm going to make sure that we don't lose that. I have almost all the threads in hard copy as well.
With the new contours of SF on Roswell's horizons, threads like these are a valuable asset in making our enjoyment of Roswell even better. Thanks for all your hard work in keeping the spoiled side up and running. Good idea in starting another thread there.
LSS

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-05-2000 07:53 AM

By the way folks, Mindtrip has started a thread on Aliens and their powers that you might want to check out. LSS

stargazer__2000
Posts: 138  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-05-2000 12:45 PM

Kate6058,
As far as Michael's vision, I thought it was implied by that heart renching speech at the end , that Max did 'see' himself in Michael's vision and realized that Liz was distracting him from some greater purpose, and putting Michael at risk. That's why I assumed he had to 'take a step back ' from Liz as he put it. It might have been mutually 'felt', if not actually seen.
Michael also never connects with Max on the circle,but is alone again up on the rock and its only when Max extends his hand to him (without Liz around) that Michael takes it and is trusting of Max once again.
Q:
After this episode, does anyone ever refer to Michael's vision and who he saw walk into the circle and who saw him ,( since my viewing up until SH is spotty )?

amx
Member
Posts: 47  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-05-2000 10:31 PM

Sorry - posting problem!
[This message has been edited by amx (edited 04-05-2000).]

amx
Member
Posts: 47  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-05-2000 10:35 PM

Sorry - double post!
[This message has been edited by amx (edited 04-05-2000).]

amx
Member
Posts: 47  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-05-2000 11:38 PM

Third attempt - since I lost my other posts. Yes, you can tell I'm new at this; LSS's observation was spot on! Thank you to LSS also for pointing me toward this thread.
I have also been intrigued by the symbols and their possible meaning. I noticed references to labyrinths in earlier posts and think that labyrinth myth analysis may offer the potential for insight. I think the main symbol we see may represent a labyrinth, but what kind? Does it represent one whose centre is to be sought (mandala-like) or avoided (Knossos-like)? The questing underlying much of the characters' motivation to date suggests the former, but the somewhat sinister (so far) presence of Nacedo/Nacero may imply peril.
Also, does the symbol represent a true labyrinth (uni-cursorial) or a maze (multi-cursorial)? This has interesting implications for plot development. A maze would serve as a metaphor for confusion and a multiplicity of paths with frequent dead ends, whereas a true labyrinth sits well with the 'destiny fulfillment' scenario.
I also find it interesting that Native American myth also employs labyrinth imagery. The Hopi have one particular maze form that, in two slightly different representations, embodies both male and female aspects. Superimposed, the two represent balance, the goal to be attained at the contre of the labyrinth. This concept also complements, I think, some of the dualities being explored in the character and their pairings/interactions: light/dark; blonde/brunette; chaos/order.

On a different tack - what struck me most about the symbols we have seen so far is that they mimic what are known as entoptic phenomena. These are geometric patterns that appear on the retina during periods of conrtical stimulation-altered states of consciousness. They consist of a series of defined 'form constants' (spirals, circles, catenary curves, parallel lines, chevrons, zigzags, wavy and straight lines) as they are the product of neurobiological processes. Sufferers of migranes with visual disturbance (such as I am) may be familiar with these patterns.
However, entoptics are most often associated with deliberately heightened states of consciousness - through the ingestion of psychoactive substances or ritual trance(particulary shamanic), such as the 'sweat' featured in "The Balance".
The entoptics appear early in the trance state and as it progresses, gain substance in addition to form, before the trance deepens further and they meld into full visual and auditory hallucinations. I think this is interesting in the context of "The Balance" - Michael's vision gives substance to the alien symbols (they stand proud of the sand) and then, as his trance progresses, a full hallucination in which the others particpate ensues. The hyper-realtiy feeling of the final vision scenes, I feel, are the give away to it being an episode of cortical overload.
I also feel that entoptic analysis may provide a structure for speculating about the symbols' meanings. Whilst the form of entoptics may be constant, the meaning they are accorded in any context is culturally mediated. In cultures employing entoptic imagery, initiates are given the key to this symbolic language. The symbols themselves then serve as a mnemonic for the information being imparted, a template for further instruction and cultural insight. They permit complex cultural concepts (sorry about the excessive alliteration!) to be transmitted in an effective shorthand. To the non-initiate the meaning is indecipherable as the images are essentially abstract. Unless you have the key.
Entoptic analysis can also explain the sense of familiarity the alien trio feel when confronted with the symbols. Firstly, they are 'hard-wired' into the brain as a consequnce of its structure and chemistry. Secondly, children often spontaneously incorporate entoptics into their art, such as Max's childhoos drawing of the symbol in the sand at the beach. Thus, they have no reason not to be familiar with the form, it is just the key as to content they lack. Here I think the orb may come in - but my thoughts on this point are not well developed as yet.
The differences between the form of human entoptics and the alien symbols could relate to the (assumed) differing neurobiologies in play. This would serve to encrypt the meaning of the symbols further and provide some security against accidental deciphering. I think this could be important given that the symbols are displayed in 'unsecured' contests - a cave wall and a necklace.
Well, I've pretty much run out of steam here. I really hope this one works!
amx

amx
Member
Posts: 47  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-05-2000 11:38 PM

GRRRRR! - I'm about to throw my computer out the window and onto the pavement two floors below. Oh wait - it isn't mine but the company's!
amx
[This message has been edited by amx (edited 04-05-2000).]

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-07-2000 06:59 AM

Stargazer2000: I think we have references (flashes) to that end scene both in "In the Woods" when Michael heals Riverdog, and in "Independence Day" when Michael is in the car and rubbing the stones.
Amx: Great post. I know next to nothing about these symbols but am going to contact Rostafehrian off board and direct her to your post. I want to "hear" you two converse!!!
LSS

Heart of Ice
Posts: 202  -- Registered: Jan 2000   -- posted: 04-07-2000 12:43 PM

I always feel so intimidated posting on the "SF of [Ep.]" threads. My fellow posters' eloquence is, well, intimidating. And fascinating!
I agree, though, that Michael's illness, for lack of better words, was not a result of the heat. Living in Albuquerque, north of Roswell near the Sandia and Sangro de Cristo mountains (read: cooler by virtue of altitude), it's hotter than hell. Literally. But, it's a dry heat.
Anyway, I love the idea that the Sweat is a spiritual healing ceremony (my limited knowledge of Plains Indian history seems to indicate that), and Michael's soul, prior to Balance was sorely in need of healing. A re-birth? I don't know. But I do know that even the most loving healing ceremony, such as we witnessed in the Balance, can't entirely erase all of the pain Michael has apparently experienced in his short life.
For me, the Balance healing seems to have somewhat renewed the deep bond of trust between the three, a bond that was formed in the pod stages of their lives. Subsequent episodes, though, show us that those bonds are meant for testing (Toy House, for ex.).
Ah, I've gone on far too long. Thanks for the scintillating dialogue! You all don't know what I'd give to be in a room with you, sharing a glass of wine, carrying on this
'conversation'!

amx
Member
Posts: 47  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-08-2000 02:13 AM

A couple of points on why the sweat may have affected Michael.
I have been talking with an anthropologist friend who also claims to be a shaman (cultural appropriation cringes acknowledged). He conducts 'sweats' and raised an interesting point that the higher the expectations with which the participant enters the greater the chance it will become a negative experience. Michael deperately wanted answers and, according to this analysis, it would have predisposed him to a bad reaction.
More interestingly, I have been re-reading some publications on the peyote ceremonies. Whilst acknowledging some of the points about stereotyping, I rediscovered this interesting nugget of information. The ritual involves ingestion of the peyote in the context of a purifying 'sweat' usually in the form of a 'button' - the dried crown of the cactus. But - it can be made into a drink for those unable to chew the leathery 'button'! So, did Micheal unwittingly ingest peyote (or something similar) and suffer an unpredictable reaction? The peyote vision can take some time to develop, so the delayed on-set of Michael's illness and vision may be explained.
More interestingly, one of the earliest researchers into peyote theorised that the word was derived from the Nahuatl (Aztec) peyotl - meaning cocoon!
(see Kluver, H. 1928 Mescal: The Divine Plant and its Psychological Effects.)
Last point - a bit of a rant - I know they are only supposed to be 16yo kids but there is an etiquette to contacting indigenous communities. Driving up in the middle of the night and demanding answers or the right to participate in cultural activities is definitely unacceptable.
amx

Nemo
Posts: 192  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 04-09-2000 08:40 AM

About etiquette: agreed, Michael had much to learn. He wouldn't even identify himself when asked. (But then, the whole reason he's there is to try to learn something about his identity.) I think it's a credit to Eddie that he shows more consideration than he received. Perhaps he recognizes that Michael is genuinely seeking the truth, and decides to respect that. I don't think it's a case of just yielding to a demand.

amx
Member
Posts: 47  -- Registered: Mar 2000   -- posted: 04-10-2000 05:49 PM

Hmmm - good point Nemo - I didn't think of that. I guess I was too busy being annoyed.
On reflection, I think, and I'm sure it has been mentioned in other posts, that Eddie's reaction might imply he has some 'special knowledge' about the trio. I base this on the fact that he is clearly trusted by River Dog as his messenger and assistant. So, River Dog may be assuring the future fulfillment of his promise by making Eddie his 'heir' (since River Dog is old and has already been waiting a considerable time).
Under those circumstances, Eddie's lenient/understanding treatment of Michael is more explicable.
Again, thanks for the thought provoking response.

SF
Posts: 63  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 04-14-2000 09:14 AM

Just bumping this up

Nemo
Posts: 192  -- Registered: Dec 1999   -- posted: 04-14-2000 07:02 PM

Tabasco_Cat: About the "map," you posted on 3-21 that "the X-shaped figure at the bottom left hand corner of the map looks like what could be four *pods* interconnected by diagonal lines." As I said on another thread, that makes sense to me, because it looked like each "pod" was an oval with a symbol in it that looked like a comma: maybe representing an embryo? I took that to mean that there is likely one more alien of about M/M/I's age. But when watching Crazy, I was struck by the topography of that wilderness spot where our friends hold council: didn't it look like several lakes or ponds with a roughly X-shaped land formation between? Or am I remembering it wrong?
As for whether the V in the sky points to anything on the ground: that would of course depend on where the observer is standing. Maybe there is a designated place from which to make this observation.

LSS
Posts: 554  -- Registered: Feb 2000   -- posted: 04-17-2000 07:36 AM

Just a maintenance bump to make sure our SF threads remain on board