Topic: The Science Fiction of Blind Date This thread was 4 pages long. 07-24-2000 05:10 PM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364 Tonight's episode originally aired during the week of February 6-12 (the week before Valentine's Day )and contained more M/L kissing than the audience had seen since Heat Wave. But far more significant for this thread are the elements it introduced to Roswell's SF frameworkñsome of which remain just as perplexing from our post-Destiny POV as they appeared way back in February! 1. ALIEN BIOLOGY. Other than alcohol being the equivalent to a date rape drug for aliens, nothing really comes (beyond this episode) of this nifty piece of information concerning alien physiology. From our post-Destiny POV, however, we might be tempted to ask: If Max's internal organs are human, then why the extreme reaction to alcohol with the resulting amnesia? Concerning the amnesia, of course, there was a HUGE debate on the boards as to whether or not Max simply "lied" about forgetting. The debate (as I remember it) centered on two issues: a) the picture at the end of Max reactivating the heart IS NOT the same as the one in the showñtherefore implying that he went back to the balconyñtherefore implying that he "remembered," and b) the words of the song Maria sings as he walks out of the room (Oh I remember, I remember, don't worryñhow could I ever forget?). Truthfully, we never did find out one way or another about this one!!!! 2. ALIEN POWERS. It might be easier to ask what Max didn't do in this episode than what he did! Glowing hearts, altered photos, lamp post sparklers, car alarm music boxesñperhaps all our podsters need to do to find the extent of their powers is to get rip roaring drunk and then have someone follow them with a camcorder! What IS interestingñespecially since we know of Tess' abilities to mind projectñis that sobering kiss at the end of this episode. Just what IS going on there? Is Max implanting those images of he and Liz into Liz's mind as a method of persuasion? Is Liz delving into Max's unconscious (his mental guards being lowered due to his inebriated state)? Or are both Liz and Max being manipulated by an outside source from which these images are coming (just when do you think the orb [which is coming up soon] and the v-constellation's influence "kick in")? 3. ALIEN SYMBOLS AND VISITING ALIENS. How is it that Michael can "read" the symbols on the parchment? And if Michael is "remembering"...is Isabel as well? Does it seem to you that Izzy is unusually "close" to Michael here? Are we seeing shadows of (shudderñI almost don't even like this word anymore)ñ"destiny?" And who/what is it that "answers" Michael's flaming beacon? Is that elusive figure: 1) an FBI agent who is keeping track of our podsters (remember two episodes from now, that camera shows up in Michael's house), 2) the alien we will later know as Nesedo/Harding? 3) the alien we will later know by his fondness for tic-tacs (who may or may not be the same as Nesedo/Harding)? Well folks, what do you think? LSS [Edited by LSS on 07-24-2000 at 07:53 PM] 07-24-2000 05:20 PM Faile Moderator Registered: May 2000 Posts: 1420 Regarding ALIEN BIOLOGY, they have human bodies, but their blood cells are not human according to Pierce in 'The White Room'. So it seems to me that this would be why alcohol affect Max so drastically!! I was wondering why the podsters blood was different. Is that supposed to be the blood humans will eventually have or is their blood non-human and therefore alien in origin? 07-24-2000 06:56 PM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364 Faile: Actually I think it is more complicated than that--it has been a LONG time since I took biology, and there are posters far more "in the know" than I (and perhaps they can help us here)...but intoxication involves the liver and the brain...isn't the blood the vehicle that moves the alcohol to the liver that either does (or doesn't) metabolize it? And then the brain is involved as well. Anyway--supposing Max's liver is "human" then would his blood be a sufficient explanation reason for his response? When BD first aired we didn't know the extent of Max's humanity and assumed that his internal organs might be different as well. Doc Paul are you out there? LSS 07-24-2000 07:08 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 I got done watching BD. I read your post beforehand LSS and I tried to keep an eye to any possible answers to the SF question you brought up. (BTW--I started watching the show having six beers under my belt, so I duly reserve the right to retract any statements here.) In regards to drunkness, I have this to say. Max thinks he's drunk because he doens't know what's going on with is body. Kyle just tells him he's drunk and Max excepts it. I don't think he's really drunk. I certainly do think that something has happened to him, but not simple intoxication. First of all, he has HUMAN organs and I would therefore think, that his liver works the same as anyone of us. I like the theory about stating that his blood chemistry would account for the variance of alcohol tolerence. [Edited by Qfanny on 07-24-2000 at 07:31 PM] 07-24-2000 07:18 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Just thought I'd butt in. Their liver probably does not function the same as ours, and judging by the sudden recovery, I'd think it was "caught off guard" by the alcohol. If it took the liver time to synthesize something to metabolize and break down the alcohol, it is rather odd that it would dump it into the bloodstream all at once - but then they are aliens. Of course, it might not even be his liver. What shows up on an X-ray as a human liver, may have an alien function and just looks a liver, so he is not readily recognizable as an alien. Tie to White Room: If Max is structurally human, but not cellularly or chemically, his body could be more affected by the alcohol. In fact, I was not surprised by something that happened in WR - on the contrary, I expected it. In WR Pierce orders him drugged to interogate him, but when they put the IV's in, Max is almost imediately incapasitated, When Pierce tries to question him, Max can't even answer, angering Pierce to the point that he grabs a doctor and shoves him at Max saying, "This isn't working!" then orders Max's systems flushed so he is coherent. Obviously, for government people that have studied the files on the aliens, they miscalculated on the amounts or types of drugs to use. Does that mean that only podsters would be so strongly affected, since the pure aliens must not have had the same reaction, or Pierce and the doctors would have expected it. This may be a side affect or down side to being a hybrid that was unavoidable. 07-24-2000 07:18 PM Faile Moderator Registered: May 2000 Posts: 1420 Maybe the advanced state of his mind requires a lot of blood flow, therefore the blodd carries the alcohol to his brain much faster than it would happen for normal humans?? 07-24-2000 07:27 PM jenlev Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 293 hi there, regarding the effect of alcohol on max: alcohol is fat and water soluable and it passes the barrier around the brain (oversimplified version as it's late tonight). given what we now know about the blood cel structure of the podsters it makes sense that alcohol could effect max's functioning in a different manner. as for the images liz (?) sees when they kiss at the end of the episode... given that max's inhibitions were non-existant at the time it strikes me that he could easily have been 'broadcasting' to her in a very open way. maybe even unconscious material through their previously established connection? about the general use of his 'powers'. one of the things that is lost when people live with secrets and trauma is the ability to play. the nature of their secret, and it's effect on their lives is in and of itself a type of trauma. i've thought that max might have had partial recall of what happened. he seemed to apologise and say he didn't remember, so it could be a combination? i'm also thinking that if max had recall of his total experience while drunk that he would have to metabolise an unbearable(?) degree of loss: because he would have to be more aware of what living with the secret has cost him and the others? so perhaps even if he had a vague sense of what happened he might not be very motivated to figure out all the details. the vagueness of recall might serve to protect him from grief? sober max seems to use his powers to maintain or increase a sense of control (reduce powerlessness). while drunk he seems to use them to express emotion and PLAY. it seems like a window to what he (and the other podsters?) might be like if they didn't have to live in hiding? also, it would fit the charactor portrayal for him to go to her balcony again after he left the concert. and seeing the intitials on the wall would no doubt give him a clue as to what else had happened? the threatening stance of the 'man' who restarted the symbol fire in front of the library initially leads me to think of nasedo; but leaving the picture to burn baffles me. well, so does much of nasedo's behavior. still not sure if it's nasedo, tic-tac...or possibly one of the evil aliens? jenlev 07-24-2000 07:30 PM Maria-MLE Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 117 Okay, here's my perspective on this episode: I think that Max was strongly affected by the alcohol b/c even though his anatomy is human, it still differs from ours b/c last time I checked, I can't make my hands glow-in-the-dark or change my fingerprints! I think that the kiss between Max and Liz is what snapped him out of his drunkness. And I think the images that we saw when they kissed was simply what was going on in Max's head when they were kissing. I don't know if Max actually did remember anything from that night or not, b/c the way he acts afterwards makes me want to believe that he wished that he could remember, but truly forgot. I agree w/ jenlev that Max's attitude of playfulness when he's drunk shows us how Max might be if he weren't so busy trying not to draw attention to himself. Personally, I would like to see more of the drunk Max! [Edited by Maria-MLE on 07-24-2000 at 07:40 PM] 07-24-2000 07:34 PM jenlev Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 293 hi there, quick ps. regarding palomino's post: great point regarding max's response to the drugs given to him in the white room. it fits with the issue of there being other 'hidden' differences perhaps connected to the blood cel issue that effect the podsters response to substances (including tabasco sause? ) jenlev 07-24-2000 07:41 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 I'm going to try to finish my post. AOL has kicked me off twice and I've timed out so many times I forgot just how many. I think that alcohol did effect Max, but not his HUMAN body. If anything, the alcohol separated his HUMAN dna from his alien essence. As soon as he drank, Max was telling Kyle he was the "real" Max and that he'd been hiding for years. (something to that effect.) He tells Liz that he wants to run away with her and start all over, because that's what the real "Max" cares about. (Pardon the dangling preposition.) Now, LSS asked about the sobering kiss at the end. During the kiss, Max established the connection with Liz. Liz saw visions from Max. I think it's possible that during the connection, (according to the books the connection is like combining both parties bodies), Liz's brain somehow acted like a catalyst and restored the fusion between Max's phisology and essence. As far as Isabel and Michael closeness during this episode, I think we saw evidence towards Destiny. I'm not saying that they are in love with one another, but there is certainly a closeness between the two that Max is not apart of. The fact that Isabel told Michael that she would always be there for him indicates to me that somehow, subconsciously, Isabel has considered the possiblity of Michael as a mate. In fact, it always seemed that Isabel and Michael would be together. If not for love then because they were allies against Max. Together they can get Max to change his mind. (((Remember the Pilot))) Now I'm going to turn my attention to Doug Shelow. He freaks me out. When he said that crack about aliens, I can't believe Liz took it so casually. Also, when he compares Liz to the archeology co-eds he says that they are so serious..... Hello??? Isn't Liz a serious person herself. Makes me wonder just how serious those co-eds are, sounds like they are beyond normal serious and into, well who knows. I thought it was a poor analogy if anything. The end of the eppy certainly has an "evil" alien. I don't know if it's the GN v. BN. If Harding is BN, I don't think he'd burn the picture of Max, Isabel, and Michael. I don't think he'd care about such a metaphor. I like the idea that it could be an "evil alien" myself. I want to bring up the notion if Max opens up to people after one swig of alcohol, then why doesn't Pierce know this. All the torture he did was entirely unnecessary if Max can't control himself under the influence. I think it's note worthy that Pierce doesn't know this, in light of the fact that they had one alien under observations for a few years. Any thoughts. [Edited by Qfanny on 07-24-2000 at 09:04 PM] 07-24-2000 07:44 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Just another random thought. What if that kiss had released a chemical -like the alien equivalent of a hormone? Could that release have been perhaps what caused the sobering effect? Hmmm...I guess getting an alien drunk would not work for some purposes. 07-24-2000 07:51 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 Oh Palomino! I like the way you think! 07-24-2000 07:53 PM deidra e, jones Crazed Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 1166 Wait it's only 7:55 p.m. here in beautiful California! 07-24-2000 07:57 PM MyrnaLynne Obsessed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1959 Oh,I've always wanted to join one of these threads, but they are usually way too long for me to jump in later! :> I was one who argued when the show was broadcast originally that Max had an alcohol-induced 'blackout' and truly didn't remember what he did. I mean if he were lying to her, what a heartless bad guy he would be! That is not our Max. But I was less sure later. Because aren't the flashes Liz sees here the ones she discusses later with him, at the beginning of Sexual Healing? Or is it past my bedtime and I am getting confused. I liked what jenlev had to say about being free from hiding his secret allows Max to play and be uninhibited. What a sweet revelation was playful, uninhibited, funny, loving Max! (sigh) I wondered most about how one generated fireworks from a parking meter, as far as science goes! I mean, you could vary light and sound from a car alarm - but... pyrotechnics? those are tricky! 07-24-2000 08:16 PM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364 quote: Originally posted by MyrnaLynne .... I mean if he were lying to her, what a heartless bad guy he would be! That is not our Max. .... I wondered most about how one generated fireworks from a parking meter, as far as science goes! I mean, you could vary light and sound from a car alarm - but... pyrotechnics? those are tricky! MyrnaLynne: Welcome to the SF threads as a poster!!! Just a couple of comments on your observations: 1) Max Lying. You know as the season went on I was surprised to see how time and again...Max lies...and I don't mean just about his alien identity. Now YOU know how much of a dreamgirl I am...but good old Max lies whenever he feels he has to protect someone. Some examples: When Kyle came up to him in the cafe and said "I'm on to you." Izzy asks Max what it was all about. Max says he doesn't know--and then immediately in the next scene tells Liz that Kyle knows! Or the time Max lies to Michael about Hubble. Or the time Max lies to Liz in the locker room (he DID NOT come to see her--he came to check out the room). But how disappointing that they NEVER went back to this eppy other than that short conversation before the strawberries fell in the kitchen (and the audience fell off their chairs in their living rooms, LOL). 2. About the parking meters. I asked the same question last February! In fact, I wondered if Max was not just manipulating matter--but actually creating it. After several science types posted I think we decided that the elements in the meters could probably not be rearranged into sparklers -- but that this is one of those times that calls for the suspension of our disbelief. In other words, we don't look toooooo closely at those sparklers!!! And I do agree with you that the poster who mentioned Play was wonderfully on target. And yes, I wish we got to see Playful Max more often. What a sweetie! But I don't think much play is in the cards for the Fall. LSS 07-24-2000 08:27 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 quote: Originally posted by LSS 2. About the parking meters. I asked the same question last February! In fact, I wondered if Max was not just manipulating matter--but actually creating it. After several science types posted I think we decided that the elements in the meters could probably not be rearranged into sparklers -- but that this is one of those times that calls for the suspension of our disbelief. In other words, we don't look toooooo closely at those sparklers!!! LSS Ok, I'm no expert in parking meters, but my current job involves working with billing utility meters. A meter is nothing more than a measuring device. In the case of a parking meter, it measures time. This can be "clocked" electronically or mechanically. In my city (Lincoln, NE) we have many electronic meters downtown. If the meter is electronic, I see no problem with Max creating an electronic fire in the circuits thus creating the sparks. But then again, my job is in the billing, not the maintance. Qfanny. [Edited by Qfanny on 07-24-2000 at 08:31 PM] 07-24-2000 08:34 PM clarinetkate Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 169 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny As far as Isabel and Michael closeness during this episode, I think we saw evidence towards Destiny. I'm not saying that they are in love with one another, but there is certainly a closeness between the two that Max is not apart of. The fact that Isabel told Michael that she would always be there for him indicates to me that somehow, subconsciously, Isabel has considered the possiblity of Michael as a mate. In fact, it always seemed that Isabel and Michael would be together. If not for love then because they were allies against Max. Together they can get Max to change his mind. (((Remember the Pilot))) KATE RESPONDS: I have also noticed that almost everytime the three sit together in the crashdown, they sit Max on one side, and Isabel and Michael sit together, across from Max. I definitely see this episode maybe not as foreshadowing of destiny but of confirmation of that destiny. Michael and Isabel definately have a closeness and we've seen in several episodes Isabel's desire to take care of and protect Michael (tonight plus balance and ID). I thought it was particularly touching that Isabel was afraid that if Michael found what he was looking for he wouldn't need them anymore. The way he pulled her close was also very sweet (uhoh, this cliffhanger is about to wax sentimental, sorry, I'll save it for another thread) QFANNY SAYS: Now I'm going to turn my attention to Doug Shelow. He freaks me out. When he said that crack about aliens, I can't believe Liz took it so casually. Also, when he compares Liz to the archeology co-eds he says that they are so serious..... Hello??? Isn't Liz a serious person herself. Makes me wonder just how serious those co-eds are, sounds like they are beyond normal serious and into, well who knows. I thought it was a poor analogy if anything. KATE RESPONDS: I also have a bad feeling about Doug. I am afraid he might make another guest appearance (please no!!). Interestingly enough his major is ancient languages and archeology (Grandma Claudia anyone??). I'm hoping he doesn't make some sort of GC related discovery and have to pay another visit to Liz and co. QFANNY SAYS: The end of the eppy certain is an "evil" alien. I don't know if it's the GN v. BN. If Harding is BN, I don't think he'd burn the picture of Max, Isabel, and Michael. I don't think he'd care about such a metaphor. I like the idea that it could be an "evil alien" myself. KATE RESPONDS: This scene has ALWAYS bothered me. I have pretty much bought into the Two Nasedos theory as I do see a real dichotomy between TicTac and Harding. But, figuring out just which one this was ALWAYS bothered me. So, I was watching closely tonight... Ok, so I figure that Harding is mostly hanging out in Harding form considering he has a "daughter" and all, and he's never been seen in NM so no reason to assume a different form. We caught a glimpse of the back of his head as he walked away, and he did NOT look like the Harding we know. And, the burning of the picture was rather sinister, but in the episodes that follow the impression is that TicTac is a good guy, looking out for them. So, I don't necessarily buy that it was that Nasedo either. I did however have another thought... If I didn't know better I might have thought I was looking at PIERCE! Now wouldn't THAT add a bizarre twist to the whole plot. But, anyway, I'm inclined to believe that it may have been an evil alien... of course, that doesn't explain why the "It has begun" began after destiny and not now. Was only ONE bad alien aware of the signal Michael sent and he couldn't communicate with the rest of the clan? This point has puzzled me endlessly. I hope you guys (and I've read your threads before, if anyone can explain it's you guys!!) can come up with a valid explanation for all this! Whew, a long rambling! Hope that it was valid and coherent : ) --KATE 07-24-2000 08:41 PM nermal Dedicated Fan Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 198 I agree that the guy that burned the picture looked bad to me. I'm not sure if there is necessarily a good Nasedo and a bad Nasedo, but maybe both aliens that survived the crash are still alive and they don't necessarily have the same agenda. Maybe they even both want to same their home world, but have different ideas on how to go about it. 07-24-2000 08:50 PM rocklowery Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 258 quote: Originally posted by MyrnaLynne I wondered most about how one generated fireworks from a parking meter, as far as science goes! I mean, you could vary light and sound from a car alarm - but... pyrotechnics? those are tricky! Maybe he turned the tops of them into Magnesium, which, when exposed to air ignites spontaneously. (At least I think it's Magnesium, or some chemical similar to that) Just a thought! 07-24-2000 09:00 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 quote: Originally posted by clarinetkate We caught a glimpse of the back of his head as he walked away, and he did NOT look like the Harding we know. And, the burning of the picture was rather sinister, but in the episodes that follow the impression is that TicTac is a good guy, looking out for them. So, I don't necessarily buy that it was that Nasedo either. I did however have another thought... If I didn't know better I might have thought I was looking at PIERCE! Whew, a long rambling! Hope that it was valid and coherent : ) --KATE ClarinetKate: This is perfectly coherent! In fact, I've been carrying the idea of Pierce being non-human since Max asked him, "Who's inhuman now?" If Pierce is an evil alien, then I think we need to throw open doors of possiblity of Pierce returning in season two. (Assuming that Pierce can't simply die like Nasedo.) BTW-- what did happen to Pierce's body? there's so many questions we don't know. 07-24-2000 09:14 PM amx Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 665 rocklowery, I think you are thinking of sodium and/or potassium metal. Magnesium certainly combusts with sparks, but must be ignited by an external heat source. Sodium etc combust spontaneously on exposure to the oxygen in the air (which is why samples of the pure metal are kept under oil or other oxygen excluding substances in laboratories). However, the effect is more of a 'poof' than a bang in open air as it happens very rapidly on the surface of the metal, which then forms an oxidation coat excluding oxygen and reducing the speed of reaction (I think). It is dangerous nonetheless as a lot of heat is produced rapidly which can cause chain reactions in other nearby materials and cause burns in its own right. WARNING - KIDS DON"T TRY THIS AT HOME! If you want an REALLY good bang from these metals, toss a lump into a metal rubbish bin half full of water. The initial reaction produces heat and hydrogen gas from breakdown of water molecules in the resulting water vapor. The bin contains the hydrogen gas sufficiently to set the scene for the next stage. The heat generated is sufficient to ignite the hydrogen which goes off with a very satisfying bang - usually destroying the bin in the process. Here is where I now confess (in case you hadn't already guessed) that I was a menace in high school - after getting hold of some 'sweaty' sodium. At this stage, the metal is too unstable to use in high school type experinments - the oxidation skin is sufficiently rough that cutting the sodium produces sufficient friction to heat it to critical and explosive temperatures! The only thing to do is get it to react with water - producing hydrogen and sodium chloride (comon salt) in the process. I 'volunteered' to do the deed and for the next three weeks bins mysteriously exploded all over campus. I'm sure the science teacher knew, but chose to keep quiet - perhaps not wanting to dampen my youthful enthusiasm for experimentation! I'm working on a post regarding alcohol metabolism - and will try to put is up later today. amx [Edited by amx on 07-24-2000 at 09:23 PM] 07-24-2000 09:17 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Sorry, it's not magnesium, although Mg (a metal) will burn rapidly with a very bright light, which is why it was used in flash bulbs. For Max to change one element into another would be nuclear fusion or fission, which would mean alot of heat with the city of Roswell as ground zero. As for the figure that reignited the symbol on the lawn: 1. He was obviously an alien (powers). 2. I think he was rather menacing (picture burning). 3. Both aliens, and maybe many more know where to start looking for the podsters. 4. I think it would have been out of character for Tictac. 5. Harding seemed to have alot of pictures. 6. Harding showed up soon afterwards, acting just as menacingly. If it's just between those two, I would guess Harding, but it could be yet another. 07-24-2000 09:23 PM allie0875 Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 19 This question might be OT, but I wanted to hear your comments on this to see ifIreading too much into the episode. How did Max get on top of that roof? The first time I saw this episode I thought it was odd, but I was too caught up in the story to give it any thought. When Kyle asked he said he used a ladder and of course there was no ladder. I thought he could have used the pole that he used to get down with, but why didn't he just tell Kyle that instead of using the ladder excuse. Another thing that made me question this was the quickness of Max disappearance after he turned the corner at the mailbox. Does this mean that maybe the aliens have some kind of ability of levatation? Sorry if this seems incoherent or not SF worthy,but Ijust wanted to see if I missed something that would have gave me an answer to this question. allie0875 07-24-2000 09:43 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 Good evening all. allie0875 re: the disappearing ladder trick. I have two thoughts (or maybe more, I'll find out as I think about it) 1. Max might have levitated, although we haven't seen this particular skill demonstrated, yet. 2. Max could have shinnied up the pipe he slid down. I remember Liz commenting on his agility when he climbed the ladder to the balcony in HW. 3. Max could have formed a ladder out of something via rearranging molecules, then un-rearranged them. That would explain his cryptic reply to Kyle when Kyle says "There's no ladder." Max responds, "Yeah, now." 4. There have been numerous posts on other threads theorizing time travel.... hmmmmmm? Oh, well, enough of that. re the mysterious figure at the end... I'm inclined to think it may have been one of the evil aliens. Wouldn't it make sense for there to be one of the baddies "stationed" in Roswell to be on the look out for the podsters. The baddies must know about the crash near Roswell. It only makes sense that someone be there to look for signs. I can't explain why Tic-tac would burn the picture, nor can I explain why Nasedo/Harding would burn it either, since he seems to be a collector of pics. 07-24-2000 09:43 PM clarinetkate Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 169 allie- I thought about this also... Now, Kyle is a jock and Max is not. So, Kyle would naturally assume that he would beat Max in a race, especially considering that Max was drunk. But, Max seemed very confident in his ability to outsprint Kyle (putting the cheating aside), like he knew he had a superfast edge on Kyle. His fast disappearance around the corner reminds of another time we saw super speedy Max, White Room. Maybe when his body is under stress (alcohol, torture) his physical intelligence sharpens, hence the speed. Maybe Max becomes a track star in other aspects too, perhaps he leaped up there? It's a good question. 07-24-2000 09:51 PM AlienMom Fan Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 39 Regarding ALIEN BIOLOGY and Max's reaction to alcohol with resulting amnesia: There is a complication known as pathologic intoxication. It is a rare syndrome characterized by repetitive, automatic movements and extreme excitement with uncontrolled, irrational behavior after ingesting a small amount of alcohol. The episode may last for minutes or hours and is followed by prolonged sleep with amnesia for the event on awakening. It doesn't exactly fit Max's case but could explain some of his behavior. 07-24-2000 09:53 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 In WR Max woke up and very quickly got to Pierce - quicker than human speed. He could have turned on more speed after he rounded the corner. The ladder could be another instance of "changing the molecular structure of matter" to change something nearby into a ladder and then back again, or he could have moved an existing one to use it, then moved it back again so it is out of sight to Kyle. 07-24-2000 10:20 PM amx Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 665 Re: alcohol metabolism. This is probably more than anyone wants to know about alcohol and how the human body deals with it. Also, it is some years since I last studied biochemistry, so the detail may be tarnished with a little mental rust. But here goes anyway. The ëalcoholí we consume is generally a fairly complex ëcocktailí of alcohols in the strictest sense. That is, organic molecules with the basic formula (sorry, but FF doesnít support subscript or bonding diagrams) C(x)O(y) ñ OH (primary alcohols) or C(x)O(y):C(a)O(b) - OH (secondary alcohols). Although the metabolic pathways for each are broadly similar, the more complex secondary alcohols have correspondingly more involved processes, so Iíll focus on the former. One thing to note is that the human body cannot store alcohol, it must metabolise it. On ingestion, primary alcohols is first tackled in the stomach by an enzyme gastro-intestinal alcohol dehydrogenase which breaks the molecule down sufficiently that it can pass through the gut wall and into the blood stream. This is necessary as the liver is the primary site for alcohol metabolism and only accepts ëinputí through the venous transport route. Metabolism in the liver involving ADH and ethanol oxidizing systems in which acetaldehyde, a catabolite, is oxidized to acetate. This conversion involves the generation of reduced nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (NADH). The NADH shuttles into the mitochondria, increasing the NADH:NAD ratio and thus the redox state of the liver. Thus, alcohol metabolism causes a reduced intracellular state that interferes with carbohydrate, lipid, and other aspects of intermediary metabolism. The breakdown of alcohol through oxidation occurs in tandem with the reduction of pyruvate to lactate, which results in hypoglycemia, and acidosis. Alcohol oxidation is also coupled with the reduction of oxaloacetic acid to malate ñ intermediates in other metabolic cycles. This may explain the reduced activity of the citric acid cycle, reduced gluconeogenesis, and increased fatty acid synthesis, which are observed effects of alcohol metabolism. Products from alcohol metabolism feed into other biochemical cycles (the pentose-phosphate cycle for example) and may disrupt their function also. Drunkenness, therefore relates, in part, to the efficiency with which the liver reduces this toxin to more neutral catabolites and metabolites thereby removing it from the blood stream and reducing the amounts crossing the blood-brain barrier. If Maxís liver function is similar, but different in its actual enzymatic content and pathways, this might account for the prolonged drunken state. However, it couldnít account for his sudden sobriety. This may be more to do with the effects of alcohol as a neurotransmitter and neurobiology in general. Once in the blood stream, alcohol molecules are sufficiently small that they can pass the blood-brain barrier - with the effects most people are familiar with. Alcoholís initial effect on the outer layers of the brain is to distort judgement and lower inhibitions, while simultaneously producing a feeling of euphoria. If you consume more alcohol, it will eventually reach the cerebellum, affecting coordination and perception, with the potential for blackouts and/or memory lapses. This is usually the point at which most people cease to drink as the physiological effects are very pronounced and vomiting is almost always one of them. This is the bodyís way of attempting to the GI tract of the alcohol to ensure that more is not ingested. As alcohol reaches your mid-brain, reflexes diminish, you experience confusion, stupor, and may lapse into a coma. If alcohol finally reaches the medulla, or inner core of the brain, your heart rate drops and breathing can cease and death result. Although behavioural neurobiology is still in its infancy, links between genes, neural function and behaviour have been posited. Variants of the dopamine D2 receptor gene that have been identified to date appear to be associated with various "impulsive-addictive-compulsive" behaviours ñ in particular alcoholism. It has been suggested that violent alcoholics and non-violent alcoholics differ from each other and from non-alcoholics in the distribution of the molecular transport systems that take up dopamine in the striatum, a part of the brain that plays a role in rewarding behaviour. Studies (in Finland particularly) have detected significantly lower densities of dopamine-re-uptake sites in the striatum of non-violent alcoholics, compared to both violent alcoholics and non-alcoholic controls, whereas violent alcoholics had slightly higher densities of these sites than the controls. Non-violent (or type 1) alcoholics are most likely to be socially conforming individuals who are deliberate and orderly (low in novelty seeking) as well as worried and pessimistic (high in harm avoidance). It typically arises in adults but not exclusively so. Violent (type 2) alcoholism is usually characterised by teenage onset (with a variety of other antisocial behaviours and recurrent abuse of many substances). Type 2 alcoholics tend to be impulsive and quick-tempered (high in novelty seeking) as well as risk-taking and optimistic (low in harm avoidance). According to a number of American studies, a deficiency of dopaminergic activity is associated with low novelty-seeking behaviour. The lower densities of dopamine re-uptake sites in the type 1 alcoholics may indicate a relatively low turnover of dopamine in the striatum. Thus, low novelty seeking, coupled with high harm avoidance, results in a personality that is socially conforming before the onset of drinking. Type 1 alcoholics tend to use alcohol as an escape or for its anxiety-reducing effects ñ through the pronounced euphoria it produces. Doesnít this sound a little like our Max? Conversely, the relatively high density of dopamine re-uptake sites in the type 2 alcoholics may correspond to a neural system in which dopamine is rapidly removed from the site of its activity in the synapse. Since alcohol is known to promote the release of dopamine in the striatum, it has been suggested that type 2 alcoholics seek out alcohol to compensate for the rapid turnover of dopamine in this part of the brain. In contrast, the antisocial behaviour of type 2 alcoholics may be coupled to a deficit in the activity of the neurotransmitter serotonin. This deficit would partly account for the impulsive nature of type 2 alcoholics and help to explain their violent tendencies. Do we see a picture of the less introspective, more impulsive Kyle here I wonder? So, does Maxís personality suggest an inherent low dopamine state that is alleviated by the alcohol, which affects him quickly as a consequence of his bodies ëinexperienceí with it?. Or, could Maxís neurochemistry be such that the dopamine pathway is different or at least more sensitive to disruption by alcohol? A couple of final points - The situation, your mood, and why you have chosen to drink on a particular occasion effect how alcohol affects you. So, Max being told that alcohol would ëhelp ease his painí and (as someone suggested earlier ñ my apologies but I have forgotten whom it was) that he is drunk, would also likely contribute to his ensuing inebriated state. The use of alcohol in men and women causes increased sexual desire, but decreased performance. Both Max and Liz were drinking during BD, thus the ëflashesí could be a direct consequence of lowered inhibitions and elevated desire leading to the necessary ëconnectioní. amx 07-24-2000 10:23 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 82 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny In my city (Lincoln, NE) we have many electronic meters downtown. If the meter is electronic, I see no problem with Max creating an electronic fire in the circuits thus creating the sparks. But then again, my job is in the billing, not the maintance. Qfanny. Sorry, this really has nothing to do with the thread... just wanted to say hola to Qfanny who's probably seen my name a few times in the Lincoln parking violation billing department (What can I say? I'm a college student). Go big red!! OK, something on the lines of BD... This is only the second time I've seen it and just wanted to throw out a few of the particular flashes we see during the "This girl is MINE" kiss. We see Max's notebook scrawled with a bunch of the alien symbols and two different versions of the V-shape (coincidentally enough, these are the last symbols....right afterward Max suddenly "sobers up") ... why these particular flashes may I ask? ....and people dare question the "Liz's importance to the alien mythos" supporters why we think the things we do... because we're given these clues that make us dig darn it! As for the arsonist at the end... I really have nothing to say about him besides TPTB definitely wanted us to catch the major creepy vibe. Burns the M/I/M pic (b/w, not unlike Harding's collection ... how many people take b/w pictures nowadays?) then walks right through the fire... at least we know he's not pyrophobic. It definitely echoes Harding behavior, however, as we know Harding was apparently *never* separated from Tess for not so much as a day. If that was Harding, where was Tess? Was she close by? If so, why wasn't she introduced sooner? ...but I suppose that's for another thread. Two eps prior (Into the Woods) also had some "signaling" going on if I recall? (sorry, only saw it once, POed it wasn't rerun) Can't remember if the "signals" were answered or not though (I think "first contact" was made BD, if I'm not mistaken). Melodious 07-24-2000 10:36 PM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 132 WOW! What a difference in perceptions. I perceive Max, and this is the foremost of his attractions, as the most truthful being on this or any planet. It pains him to the point of agony to have to keep back some of the truth, even though he's had to do it much of his life. Notice that when he does, he rarely lies, he'll just withhold some info. Even when Valenti comes to him in the UFO Museum, and says things like, "Now I know how you must feel, having to keep something inside but needing to get it off your chest," Max answers only, "Is that what you need to do, Sheriff?" With Liz, he *never* lies, even when it's only self-preservation to want to do so! I've marveled at how he may *start* to cover something up, because of a life-long forced habit of having to hide the truth of his nature, but then he never even finishes the sentence, following immediately with a difficult truth. (I don't know about the guys you've known in your life, but this puts him *leagues* ahead of the ones I've known, who feel authorized to say or withhold anything on a "need to know" basis: their Need for me not to Know.) Examples: (SH in Locker Room) Liz: Max, what are you doing here? Max: I wanted to see you. (then he breaks off and tells her the difficult truth) I had to find out if something was real. You know how you've seen things, well ... I've seen things. And one of those things is ... (looks at the showers) (SH) Liz: So you told them. Max: Yes Liz: And that was just them cheering you on, like a football game. Max: No! (Once again, the reflexive hiding is put aside for truth, esp. because it's Liz) Yes. They want to know where all this is leading ... Liz: Max, I need to know where all this is leading too. (Shows the hickey residue.) (BBrothers) Liz tells Max that she told Alex "it was drugs." Max: (aghast) Did he believe you? Later, when they part, and Liz is saying that living with this horrible untruth is the price of love, Max gives her a searing look of pain and remorse, and says, Max: Liz! I am so sorry... And the look as she leaves says he's considering breaking off with her so he won't lead her into the life of hiding that is so painful to him. And just see the look on his face in M2TM when Maria suggests they can appeal to Valenti for help *if* they let him think that the real Max has taken Liz. Maria: Then for all he knows, Max has taken Liz. (Max looks as if he truly can't endure this, but it's the only way to get help to save Liz.) I really think of him as the most honorable and honest character I've ever seen portrayed, and that's part of the drama of the series: the honorable man forced to live a life of half-truths and shadows. (Kind of like the Fugitive series, I should think: an innocent man forced to run like a convict.) He always tells Liz the truth (unlike Liz, who agrees to withhold truth to cover up for Michael in Missing and keep a secret from Max, for what reason I'll never understand.) [Edited by Michelle in Yonkers on 07-24-2000 at 10:49 PM] 07-24-2000 10:45 PM BehrFan Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 536 I am going to address two issues... First, the Michael/Isabel connection. It really cracks my M&M's to have to say this, but there was a closeness demonstrated between M/I in many episodes. Perhaps, there has been some foreshadowing to Destiny all along. I recall that in The Morning After, Isabel is dressed up to go out on a date and Michael said something to her about why she was dressed that way. Jealousy? Maybe. Was Isabel's "disgust" at M&M's flirting a mask for her jealousy of Maria? Izzy does want to take care of Michael(Balance) and she did say that she would always be there for him(BD). However, she is also very controlling when it comes to Michael(ID). And her care-giver tendencies come out, but she seems to want him to change who he is...to be more like her and Max. On the other hand, (I am in Candygirl mode now) Maria is capable of letting Michael discover the "person" that he is, on his own. I realize that she did not start out in the relationship that way, but once she realized how much she loved him, she was willing to accept Michael as is...because she loved him. I just don't think Isabel can be that person for Michael. I do, however, agree that there seem to be some hints of jealousy but I'm living in Egypt where Michael and Isabel are concerned. Now, on to "Dog Boy" aka Doug Shellow. He gave me the creeps, too. I am still very suspicious of his "true" identity. And tonight I got even more suspicious. In my post-Destiny POV, I remember Nasedo/Harding having all of those "ancient artifacts".... Shellow was majoring in archeology at UNM. Ummm....strange. He also mentioned that the girls in the archeology department were always on some quest to find some ancient "secret" or something like that. That brought to mind the book that Tess got at the library...with the symbol that M/I burned into the grass. Tess told Kyle that it was a lost language and they were in the ancient language section. I just don't trust Shellow...there was something definitely off about "dog boy". I feel like I'm grasping at staws, but knowing that there are many, many aliens out there...some of which could be shapeshifters...evil aliens...then they(M/M/I/L/A/M/K/V)really can trust NO ONE!!! 07-24-2000 10:58 PM amx Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 665 OK, I have to open this with ìPardon me, but my bias is showingî! Iím an archaeologist, a woman and proud of both - and take great exception to the characterization of my gender in this profession by Mr Shallow (LOL)! I wish that the writers would give me more to go on ñ they keep throwing these tantalizing clues that archaeology may be important to the story they are developing, but then refuse to give all but the most cursory treatment to it. Perhaps, given my profession, I am just being too reluctant to engage in speculation on this point ñ which is rather uncharacteristic! There are repeated allusions to the past and possible alien involvement in it, not only in the context of Native American archaeology, but also on a wider scale (cf the reference to Nazca I think it was in The Convention) that are never developed. These motes remain hanging, which frustrates the beejeebers out of me, since I think that I could really sink my conjectural teeth into anything the writers may come up with. Enough ranting for now. amx 07-24-2000 11:07 PM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 132 Interesting about the recurrence of archaeology as a theme! Nobody seems to be studing art history or hotel management, do they? 07-24-2000 11:10 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 amx; I feel your pain! I keep wondering the same thing... they've thrown out all of these clues, so when are they going to start piecing them together. Hopefully, with the change in writers, they don't just let all of this stuff drop. They've made it significant to us, now, bygosh, they had better carry through! 07-24-2000 11:11 PM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 132 Reply to LSS's original post Alcohol: His structure is human but his chemistry is alien. To metabolize something means to process it chemically, and therefore to render it usable or discard what one cannot use. So it doesn't surprise me that he metabolizes alcohol differently than humans. Images: The images Liz? they? see when they Kiss, are all taken from previous episodes, are flashes from the few good times the writers have allowed them to have, which indicates that Max's nature is to hold on to any good things that come his way, and also tells us that these things have been sadly very few. (Wonderful post, Jenlev! About the terror and need to hide as *trauma*, rendering it nearly impossible for him to let loose and have fun or even just laugh.) The only one that doesn't fit this bill is the V-constellation stuff, which is the warning and harbinger of changing tides in their bodies and in their destinies. I think it's really significant that he sees this by connecting with Liz. We see later that he also sees it (or it's projected into his mind) when he kisses Tess; which supports the theory, in my mind, that in whatever bonding is/was supposed to take place, Liz was there and she and Max have bonded, even if it was originally engineered to be Tess. By making the aliens human (mixing DNA, etc.) they've changed one side of the equation, and I don't think it would be reasonable to expect that the other side would not have to change, too. Symbols: When the aliens see symbols which they believe are from their "home", they cannot identify them, but they do "recognize" them; the symbols seem vaguely familiar, they tug at the teens' memories (Max in the cave w. Riverdog, Michael figuring out how to navigate the symbols, Atherton's pendant triggering a sense of recognition in all 3). (Like genetically implanted pattern recognition, which is seen in human infants when they see patterns approximating a human face.) In light of this, I think it's significant, esp. since several episodes stress innate knowing (I just *knew*), that the alien teens don't recognize or feel familiar about the symbols in the fabled "book" Tess pulls out of the library. (And it's always seemed strange that they're willing to accept - esp. Michael - teachings from a book they can't even decipher!) 07-24-2000 11:17 PM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 132 (Have to wait until the end of the work day to do all my posting, so after this I'll go quietly, no need to summon a SWAT team, I promise) Speaking of Images: Anyone else notice that when Max is being tortured in the White Room, and Pierce puts the "virtual reality" visor on him, that the images Pierce shows are *All From This Episode*? (Except Dead Liz, which is fictionally created.) The picture of Michael and Isobel is from the library lawn, the picture of Alex and Maria is from the audition for the talent scouts ... did I miss any? I don't know whether to conclude anything from this (someone was spying and filming on the library lawn, possibly EHNacedo is working for Pierce; the talent agents might have been FBI agents instead), or just to assume that a low-budget enterprise with tight time parameters grabs its images where it can find them? And consistency has not exactly been the hobgoblin of this show, eh? [Edited by Michelle in Yonkers on 07-24-2000 at 11:20 PM] 07-24-2000 11:18 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 quote: Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers Symbols: When the aliens see symbols which they believe are from their "home", they cannot identify them, but they do "recognize" them; the symbols seem vaguely familiar, they tug at the teens' memories (Max in the cave w. Riverdog, Michael figuring out how to navigate the symbols, Atherton's pendant triggering a sense of recognition in all 3). (Like genetically implanted pattern recognition, which is seen in human infants when they see patterns approximating a human face.) In light of this, I think it's significant, esp. since several episodes stress innate knowing (I just *knew*), that the alien teens don't recognize or feel familiar about the symbols in the fabled "book" Tess pulls out of the library. (And it's always seemed strange that they're willing to accept - esp. Michael - teachings from a book they can't even decipher!) I totally agree. I think it is significant that Michael says here, and in another eppy, that he "just knew" how to navigate the star map. The question is, is this left over from his previous life, or is it a biological imperative... sort of like species memories. The fact that neither Isabel or Max has this particular talent is also significant, as is their frustratingly vague memory of the symbols. I agree, as well, about their non-recognition of the book. Perhaps, however, their hunger for knowledge about their home world blinds them to the truth. By gosh, this is where objective opinions (human friends ) would be very valuable... Liz, Maria and Alex (as well as the Sheriff and possibly Kyle) should be used as sounding boards to help keep things in perspective for the podlings. (We have to find a way to keep our beloved humans important, since TPTB seem to want to shove them aside! ) 07-24-2000 11:23 PM amx Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 665 Lorrilei - your sympathy is much appreciated! Michelle - I agree with you on the concept of the symbols and their meaning being inherent to the Pod Squad. I've posted on this before (and can hear the collective groans of "Not Again amx!" hehe) and think that they may be what is known as entoptic phenomena. I won't burden everyone on this thread with the detail - suffice to say that brain neurochemistry results in particular images being seen on the retina during periods of cortical stimulation. These images are consistent no matter who you are, but are capable of interpretation in multiple ways. Shamans (going back at least 30 000 years) have used/do use these images as a symbolic language - the key being a common idealogical system into which initiates are inducted. The symbols we are shown in Roswell are broadly similar to entoptics but suffuciently different that they could be produced by alien neurobiology. They are familar to the Pod Squad as a consequnce of being 'hard-wired' but they lack the ideational framework (or key) to decipher them. amx 07-24-2000 11:41 PM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 132 Lorillei, Yes! I think it would be beyond tragic if the creators forget the importance of the humans! L/M/A will (I hope) provide balance and grounding, reminding the PodSquad of the other half of their heritage. And they have valuable skills as well: Alex with his electronics passion, Liz is (allegedly) into science and structuring plans and strategies (on the order of what she did in Riverdog, when she goes to Max and points out some tough facts - "Today they came for the files; tomorrow they might come for you, so I'm going to the reservation today"), and Maria would I hope be better at going under cover than Liz was when she tried to be nonchalant at Tess's house! (And she's good at investigating - knows where to find the best trash!) So they might come in actually useful, as well. [Edited by Michelle in Yonkers on 07-24-2000 at 11:47 PM] 07-24-2000 11:43 PM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 132 AMX: I'd love it if you could e-mail me privately, then, about your ideas, or tell me where to find them in some thread? The entoptics idea? I've never heard of it and it sounds fascinating. What says this august company on the idea that the Visor Images all come from this episode? 07-24-2000 11:48 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 True, Michelle, and Maria seems to think "around corners". I think it's significant that she's always coming up with pretty good plans. Plus she seems to be very intuitive about people... she was the first one to point Liz in Topolski's direction (if I remember correctly) and she had her reservations about Tess from the beginning (I just knew something was up with that chick). In case you couldn't tell, Maria is one of my favorite character! 07-24-2000 11:58 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 quote: Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers ... Speaking of Images: Anyone else notice that when Max is being tortured in the White Room, and Pierce puts the "virtual reality" visor on him, that the images Pierce shows are *All From This Episode*? (Except Dead Liz, which is fictionally created.) The picture of Michael and Isobel is from the library lawn, the picture of Alex and Maria is from the audition for the talent scouts ... did I miss any? Excellent sleuthing, Michelle! Now the only question is: are the writers still going in the same direction? Having done my share of art work and designing, I can't fault them if they want to back up and start over a little in order to remain true to the vision (although I expect in TVland motives are less altruistic). I can't begin to guess if the picture taker is Evil Alien Pierce, or Howie D, or Nedsado, or Tesshifter. But, actually, I prefer the picture burner to be a good guy who is trying (vainly) to keep the podsters from exposing themselves to the bad aliens and/or alien hunters (with bad alien accomplices a la x-files)...maybe TicTac? 07-25-2000 12:07 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 I think it was Liz who was onto Topolsky first, because of the attendance/roll call thing. But Maria certainly has a good way of turning Michael's own manipulative strategies against him, and she's hip to a lot of human motivations as well. She might be very useful at sniffing out "the evil within", as she hated T*** from the first; she's also the one who knew: Max: I don't need a babysitter! Maria: No, you need a bodyguard! She advised M&A: "You can't just break into someone's house!" And when they asked for a better idea for planting a camera on Edsedo, she thought of sending in Liz with the kiss as a perfect excuse. 07-25-2000 12:13 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 But the picture that was burned was a surveillance-style photo, just like the ones in Ed-sedo's photo box. B&W, and all. And I couldn't figure out why anyone, whatever game they're playing, would walk off and leave the symbol burning in the lawn for all to see. About the visor images being from this episode, it makes you wonder what else is going on, and when it moved into place. A camera following them. And from the M/Iz surveillance stuff we see (the ping pong scene) in 4square? M2TM? the camera angle does *NOT* match a camera planted on the refrigerator. Iz is seen from the side; indicating another camera at M's apartment? Didn't that occur to them? If there's a camera there, there would surely be one in Max's room (post robbery), the Crashdown? and esp. Liz's room. But they didn't seem aware of the plan to deliver Max from the White Room, though it was planned in those two places. 07-25-2000 12:15 AM Kate6058 Crazed Fan Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 1269 quote: Originally posted by MyrnaLynne I was one who argued when the show was broadcast originally that Max had an alcohol-induced 'blackout' and truly didn't remember what he did. I mean if he were lying to her, what a heartless bad guy he would be! That is not our Max. But I was less sure later. Because aren't the flashes Liz sees here the ones she discusses later with him, at the beginning of Sexual Healing? I've always believed that Max lied and really did remember what happened that night, even more so after seeing Sexual Healing and hearing he and Liz "discuss" it. He wanted to make sure they could still be friends... he knew something happened, something that he should be embarrassed by or something that he remembered exactly. I'm pretty sure it's the latter. I always pay such close attention to the music used in a scene, and I don't think the lyrics "Well I remember, I remember don't worry... how could I ever forget?" were a coincidence. quote: Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers WOW! What a difference in perceptions. I perceive Max, and this is the foremost of his attractions, as the most truthful being on this or any planet. It pains him to the point of agony to have to keep back some of the truth, even though he's had to do it much of his life. ----- I really think of him as the most honorable and honest character I've ever seen portrayed, and that's part of the drama of the series: the honorable man forced to live a life of half-truths and shadows. (Kind of like the Fugitive series, I should think: an innocent man forced to run like a convict.) Max lies, but he's hardly malicious in his intentions. The entire explanation he gives his mother at the end of The Toy House is a lie (and I don't like to think of it that way... I'm only saying that for the purpose of this topic), but he's doing it to protect her. He at first lies to Liz about why he's in the locker room because, like he told Michael, he doesn't want to embarrass her. And he lies at the end of Blind Date because as soon as he sobered up, secret-keeper Max instantly reappeared, along with all his fears about exposing himself to any human. We should have found out in Sexual Healing that he knows that Liz accepts all of him, but of course, they had to cut out that part of the locker room scene. But I agree with you Michelle... I'll paraphrase how I feel: Max is amazing. Michael and Isabel: There is also foreshadowing here for Max and Liz. So there's been this huge destiny plan for all of eternity for M/I and M/T. Well, Tess was/never will be in the picture, so who did Max turn to? Yes, Liz. I know, this is obviously not the first time this has been pointed out, but it just seems more apparent in an episode like this when there are some really tender Michael/Isabel moments. They've always [totally] subconsciously considered each other for that next level of companionship, I think, but in Max's subconscious, there was always Liz. She's there for a reason. 07-25-2000 12:25 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 Max doesn't lie to his mom in Toy House; (except the fire thing, which they both *know* is not the whole story, and it *is* for protection). He tells her that he can't tell her, and if she doesn't want him therefore, then he'll leave. He basically just says she'll have to love him and trust him, but if she doesn't, and she wants him to go, he'll go. The entire episode of Toy House demonstrates how much it hurts both him and Iz to not be able to reveal the whole truth. It's anguish (see the post above by jenlev about it amounting to trauma) QUOTE: about the general use of his 'powers'. one of the things that is lost when people live with secrets and trauma is the ability to play. the nature of their secret, and it's effect on their lives is in and of itself a type of trauma. ENDQUOTE I've always admired them showing how far he goes *not* to lie (even mastering Topolsky-style non-committal rephrasing of the other person's statement); it's anguish to him to have a discrepancy between the inner and outer reality. And as for him knowing that *something* happened in Blind Date: Of course! One moment he was standing in front of the restaurant watching creepy, whining Doug Shallow kissing his beloved, and the next thing he knew, he "came to" on a stage in front of *all* the kids from school, not knowing how he got there or what he had just done! That would make me run for the exit sign! 07-25-2000 12:25 AM rocklowery Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 I found it very interesting that Doug kept wanting to get away so they could have a "normal" date. Was he trying to get Liz to himself so he could kill her (if he's one of the evil aliens)? Maybe he was there to finish the failed shooting at the crashdown. Why was he being so insistent about Liz staying with him in the bedroom. Part of me wants to say that he's evil, but then there's that other part of me that wondered about the kiss and the way he apologized afterwards. Did anybody else catch the blue flash that went off during the kiss when they panned to Max's face. A possible allusion to his being an alien, or a disguise for him using his powers? His conversations with her were very cordial, not as cat-and-mouse as Hardings were with her. He also appeared worried when Max and Liz went off by themselves. Also note that he didn't try to kill or hurt Kyle when he was holding Doug back. He also swatted Max's hand away when he was going to change Doug's hair to blonde as if he knew what he was capable of doing. My feelings are mixed, especially since we know BN's MO is to approach somebody in a familiar form, then kill them like he tried to do with pierce. Also I noticed that the shirt the hand was wearing in the picture burning scene was a button-down shirt, as indicated by the cuff. Doug's shirt was a long-sleeved t-shirt style shirt which wouldn't have that type of sleeve. I think there are more aliens in town than we were originally lead to beleave. Did the radio jock remind anybody of Milton? Well enough for now. It was nice to finally see it in a coherent state of mind. Seeing in on painkilling drugs makes you miss alot. 07-25-2000 12:30 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 I'm still inclined to think Doug was just Shallow ;-) Didn't seem edgy enough to have a private agenda. And the hand that swatted Max's away was Liz's hand! She saw what was about to happen while she was begging Maria and Alex for help, and ran out and grabbed Max's hand before he could really expose his powers to the high school crowd. 07-25-2000 12:31 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 Good night, I really am going! This stuff is so fascinating, I lose track of the time! 07-25-2000 12:38 AM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 I agree that Max is a great character, very honorable and all that, but he does tell lies. He has to. He and Isabel lied to their mother about their whereabouts during their trip to Texas. Mom comes in the next morning and they tell her they were up all night studying for an test. He lies to Michael when he asks what they found in the library when they followed Tess. He says "nothing happened." I'm not saying he's a habitual liar, but he does fib every now and again to cover his butt... but wouldn't we all if we were in his shoes? 07-25-2000 12:48 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 Yes, he does have to cover his butt; but to Liz, he never lies. He doesn't have to, because she already knows the big, terrible secret; and even though "No guy's that sensitive," even when he catches himself about to practice a little self-preservation and try to gloss over something to her, he then stops and tells her the hard truth in often the most incriminating way (as if as penance). I think it's a great solace to the deeply truthful person he is that there's one person he can be totally revealed to, and he doesn't want to jeopardize that with the slightest untruth. I give credit to the acting, too, to see how the necessity for being misprized really hurts Max, how it just traumatizes him, as when he has to let Alex believe he's on drugs, or when he has to let Valenti think *he's* the one who's kidnapped Liz. 07-25-2000 12:50 AM amx Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 601 Michelle, check your e-mail. amx 07-25-2000 12:52 AM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 Michelle, I thought you were going to bed. I waited to post my thoughts so that you wouldn't get me. You are very staunch in your support of Max... should we say that you always stand by your Max!?! 07-25-2000 01:26 AM Nike Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 21 quote: Yes, he does have to cover his butt; but to Liz, he never lies. Michelle in Yonkers Not quite . . . he lied in Four Square when Liz asked him if he was still attracted to Tess. [Edited by Nike on 07-25-2000 at 01:32 AM] 07-25-2000 01:43 AM deidra e, jones Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 943 Wasn't Max, Michael & Isabel engineered with Human DNA? That means, sorry humans, that all do have the potential of lying? Anysway, Max do have the best interest of his family, friends, and of course Liz. Oh my, is that a bad thing? Just having fun. Now Doug is not evil nor an alien. He was the blind date. I believe that the evil one did arrive in Roswell that night b/c of Michael & Isabel (they kinda look cute together) signaled for the 4th alien. Like in Destiny with the Orb, this alerted other aliens to their present. Blind Date - "IT HAS BEGUN" Now for the special effects regarding Max allowing his true feelings to come out, to me was so memorable. DeeDee Jones 07-25-2000 02:50 AM pixiedude Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 My thoughts on Blind Date. Many of them have already been had by others here in some form. These are not in the order they occurred in the show: 1) The symbol Micheal and Isabel burn into the library lawn could be described as a stylized post-nova. I was impressed that Micheal could pinpoint the library with such GPS-like accuracy, given the scale of the map he was working with. And I second whoever pointed out how non-low-profile their action was. I hadn't remembered his explanation for why the library was important, but it makes it seem more likely that the book Tess pulled out of the wall was really there. I've wondered if it was a complete Tessucination. 2) Dog Boy, River Dog, various coyote references; is Doug part of a larger clan bearing a canine standard? The last (and first) time we saw what may be the only complete hard copy of GC's book, Liz was putting it somewhere near her bed. Doug and Kyle were wrestling on her bed. Could Doug have seen the book? Did he manage to steal it, or will he return and attempt to do so? 3) The first time I saw the ending, where someone with powers burns the picture, I thought the character was dressed like Clint Eastwood in his spaghetti westerns, with a black hat and a long black riding coat. Tonight, I realized that the man was bare-headed, with black hair, wearing a knee-length black overcoat. Pierce wore such a hairstyle and overcoat, and the man's build was similar to Pierce's. 4) We see Max after he sobers up fiddling with the heart he painted under Liz's window. I'm thinking that after he made it expand and glow, he erased it (I guess the fact that he knew it was there could be evidence that he did remember what he'd done while under the influence). But do you think he ever restored Liz's photo with Maria and Alex? 5) While getting ready to meet Doug, Liz has a detailed fantasy about Max coming to her window, telling her what she most wants to hear, and smooching passionately. Do you think that was simply a daydream, a set of images put into her head (Max wasn't drunk yet, so he wouldn't have been "broadcasting" his thoughts to her accidentally), or a shapeshifter who actually did come to her window as Max, and then disappear without a trace (one possible meaning for the altered picture with Max faces is that people who are not Max may show up wearing a Max-face)? 07-25-2000 03:29 AM pixiedude Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 this actually goes with The Morning After, but I looked at that scifi thread just now, and there are many other eps referred to. So I'll put it here: I had an epiphany a few days ago, while listening to NPR. The announcer said something about the Czech prime minister, and I realized that Czechoslovakia no longer exists. I looked it up, and found that the EU recognized the 2 separate nations of Slovakia and the Czech Republic in 1993. Nemo pointed out to me that when Alex finds out that Czechoslovakians is Maria's term for aliens, he tells her that the country hasn't existed for 10 years. So this is another possible clue that the home planet no longer exists. 07-25-2000 07:09 AM rocklowery Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 I had a little epiphany of my own this morning when I woke up. I keep thinking about whether Doug is GN, BN or just BD and I keep coming back to GN. During the conversations they had, what if Doug was throwing out hints to Liz to see if her grandma had spoken to her. If you notice he only talks about the girls in the archaeology department not about girls on campus. Maybe this was a private joke between him and Claudia. Also remember, the coyote is the trickster. If he was under some kind of deadline (i.e. the V formation) he might have been trying to trick Max into opening up the connection between them or doing it himself so she would be ready to receive the signals from the Orb. I also noticed a bright blue flash when they kissed, that could've been a camera flash, but seemed brighter than normal. Liz also seemed entranced and had to snap out of it when they ran out the back. Comments please? 07-25-2000 07:12 AM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote: Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers Symbols: When the aliens see symbols which they believe are from their "home", they cannot identify them, but they do "recognize" them; the symbols seem vaguely familiar, they tug at the teens' memories Hi Michelle: That is true for the most part--but in this eppy Michael reports that he IS able to do more that simply recognize them. Thought one gets the impression that what he does falls short of fully reading the symbols...he IS about to "figure them out" to a degree that is beyond Max's ability to decipher the cave symbols. As for Max's lying...Touched a nerve did we? I think that Max is noble too--and as I've said repeatedly--the stuff of legend and myth. And you are right that he hates living in the shadows. But he does lie. Actually, we all do. One just has to look at the conditions under which lies take place and assess their motivation. A colleague of mine in Philosophy once wrote a paper entitled "The Noble Lie" that created quite a flurry. We are conditioned to think that all lying is bad, dishonest. His point was that dishonesty has its place at times as necessary. My point with Max is that, apart from qustions of his identity, his noblity makes him want to shield those he loves and to filter what information they have access to in hopes that he can curtail their actions and keep them safe. Thus when Michael is seeking out information from the attendees at the UFO convention, he directly asks Max about Hubble. Now Max has reason to believe that Hubble is the real thing (in fact will later get Hubble alone himself to ask him questions), so Max knows full well who Hubble is. But he lies to Michael (presumably so that Michael WILL NOT talk to the one person that might be dangerous). And Max lies to Izzy and Michael in the cafe when Izzy asks what Kyle was talking about. Max says he doesn't know and then later (somewhat panicky) confronts Liz with the fact that Kyle must have the journal because he "knows". Actually I think that Max is protecting Liz here because he doesn't want the other podsters to be mad at her. So yes, Max lies. But I think that most of your post really was directed at another, somewhat adjacent issue...DOES MAX LIE TO LIZ? And that is a far more interesting issue than simply does Max "lie." And I would venture to say that, it is the possibility of Max's lying to Liz that is the "nerve" that my comments touched (especially since you posted that anecdotal reference to guys). Does Max lie to Liz? Or--let's put it another way--when he attempts to lie to Liz, what happens? I do think that Max tries to lie to Liz. But I do agree with you that he is often uneasy with this. And I think that we have a number of examples of this, but let me just look at one as a case study: In the school hallway in Leaving Normal, Max says something to Liz like "Yeah you shouldn't have...we agreed..." and then in frustration walks off. I suspect that telling her she shouldn't have was a falsehood of sorts because he really does want and seeks out that contact. And, had he not gotten beaten up, or had Kyle not been at the hospital, he would have been overjoyed that Liz had turned to him in her moment of need. Intstead, he rebuffs Liz (which is a totally false action on his part as to what he really wants with her) and that bathroom/stall scene that follows mirrors his resulting frustration at having to say and do what he did. BUT earlier in this eppy, Liz "waits" for Max in the hall and then "accidently" runs into him and finds out that he's been hurt. When she asks him what happened, does he say that someone beat him up? I don't think so! In fact the reason he gives concerns basketball (Did you see a basketball in that night alley? I didn't). And then he says he has to go because he has an English (?) test--I don't know about you, but that sounded like a lame excuse to get away to me (though we can't be sure on this one). Michelle, my point is simply that when Max thinks the end justifies the means--he will do what he thinks is best (there--that phrase sounds better than the word "lie" doesn't it). I think he does it for noble reasons. And I think he does it quicker with Izzy and Michael than with Liz. Frankly, I don't think he is able to lie well with Liz--he just can't pull it off because he tends to wear his heart in his eyes--a bad habit for someone who wants to lie with credibility--even for noble reasons. Notice that in some of the examples that you cited of his ultimately telling the truth to Liz...that his first impulse was to ...ahem...choke...sputter....lie. Love your passion Michelle. It is nice to debate/discuss/argue (whatever) with someone as taken by Max as I am!!!! And we may agree to disagree on this one, but that is the beauty of these discussions. LSS P.S. BTW in this same eppy Max tries the basketball lie with Izzy and she calls him on it. Go back and look at how he justifies his attempt to lie to her. Max doesn't lie for self-serving mean reasons, simply to protect the ones he loves (boy--and isn't MY rampant Max idealism showing forth on that last statement. Sigh! [Edited by LSS on 07-25-2000 at 09:18 AM] 07-25-2000 07:24 AM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote: Originally posted by pixiedude 1) The symbol Micheal and Isabel burn into the library lawn could be described as a stylized post-nova. I was impressed that Micheal could pinpoint the library with such GPS-like accuracy, given the scale of the map he was working with. And I second whoever pointed out how non-low-profile their action was. .... 2) Dog Boy, River Dog, various coyote references; is Doug part of a larger clan bearing a canine standard? Hi pixiedude: Non-low-profile is right! While Izzy "erased" the image, the stranger did re-ignite it. Wonder what the librarian thought about the burned patch the next morning? As for the dog/coyote references. I don't know about "dog" but I AM mystified about that coyote in SH. I am not ususally a "signs" person, but that was either a completely "throw - away" element or else meant something I have yet to find out. It did show how focused Max was on the activity at hand, though. He was a bit miffed it seemed that it had distracted Liz! LSS [Edited by LSS on 07-25-2000 at 08:29 AM] 07-25-2000 08:10 AM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 amx: thank you for your detail account of the biochemical reaction of alcohol consumption. It cured my hang-over this morning. :-) I'm still confused on Max though. Are you saying that because of his alien essence, he has a different blood chemistry. The blood chemistry he has could have accelarated the process or are you saying that his cellular make up just won't handle any alcohol. Zero tolerance. I liked the way you reminded us that time, place, and mood says a lot about how someone reacts to alcohol. I think I was the one that suggested because Kyle said he was drunk, Max just accepted that. So that's how he started acting. Good point to ponder. Since you seem to know a lot about chemistry, I'm going to ask you this. Is it possible that Palomino's suggestion that there was something hormonal going on with Max? And following that line, is there a chemical compond that would immediately "cure" a hang over that Max's body created during the kiss with Liz. Or does my theory that the connection with Liz cured him somehow holds more water? Now for a different topic. During the kiss, we are just assuming that Liz is getting all this info from Max, but could be equally possible that Liz is contributing to the visions and that they are sharing them? Am I nuts, too far out there??? On that note, are we sure that Liz wasn't broadcasting her day dream to Max somehow??? He seemed to get more upset about the whole BD event after the daydream. [Edited by Qfanny on 07-25-2000 at 03:32 PM] 07-25-2000 08:15 AM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 edited [Edited by LSS on 07-25-2000 at 08:52 AM] 07-25-2000 08:23 AM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 [Edited by LSS on 07-25-2000 at 09:20 AM] 07-25-2000 09:28 AM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 quote: Originally posted by rocklowery I found it very interesting that Doug kept wanting to get away so they could have a "normal" date. Was he trying to get Liz to himself so he could kill her (if he's one of the evil aliens)? Maybe he was there to finish the failed shooting at the crashdown. Why was he being so insistent about Liz staying with him in the bedroom. Okay, I'm going to give you more fuel for this fire with my anagrams Doug Shelow = Should we go? = Would she go? Rocklowery: as far as you coyote/dog references, I've got one for you too. Doug Shelow = Dog Use Howl. And for everyone, the whole blind date episode could be summed up with this one. Doug Shelow = Do we go Lush? (Max certanily did) Hope this isn't too far off SF. Most writers I know enjoy word play. 07-25-2000 09:51 AM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Qfanny: What fun! I think you've just convinced me to visit your anagram thread! LSS P.S. I'd try your user name but you did not give us a "u" ! 07-25-2000 09:57 AM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 quote: Originally posted by LSS Qfanny: What fun! I think you've just convinced me to visit your anagram thread! LSS P.S. I'd try your user name but you did not give us a "u" ! I'd like that-- it certainly lightens up the seriousness of Roswell. Everyone should visit and leave behind a note. 07-25-2000 10:16 AM rocklowery Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 quote: Originally posted by LSS quote: Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers Symbols: When the aliens see symbols which they believe are from their "home", they cannot identify them, but they do "recognize" them; the symbols seem vaguely familiar, they tug at the teens' memories Hi Michelle: That is true for the most part--but in this eppy Michael reports that he IS able to do more that simply recognize them. Thought one gets the impression that what he does falls short of fully reading the symbols...he IS about to "figure them out" to a degree that is beyond Max's ability to decipher the cave symbols. Michael has had some previous "help" with things. Remember in Missing when he wakes up suddenly and starts furiously sketching the "semi-circle" It was as if somebody were helping him with his vision. Also Max is pointed to Atherton's book by Milton in that same episode. I've suspected that Milton is more involved with the aliens than just running the UFO center. 07-25-2000 10:35 AM huggybehr Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 165 This probably belongs on the 'Importance of Liz to the alien mythology' thread, where I've posted something similar before. I don't know anything about chemistry, so I may be way off base, but given that Liz's visions start with the kiss in Blind Date, could the alcohol in Max's bloodstream have set off a chemical reaction which intensified the connection with Liz? I ask this because of Liz's voice-over in Sexual Healing, re chemical changes in her body. Michelle, this is not personal, but I'm contradicting you again! I also noticed that most of the virtual reality visions came from this episode, except the one of Liz which is from Sexual Healing when Max first sees her in the classroom, after the strawberry encounter. Check it out when you're doing your scientific research! 07-25-2000 10:54 AM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 Because I keep popping from sci-fi thread to sci-fi thread, I'm probably repeating myself... they say that the mind is the first thing to go . Anyway... about Michael and his ability to navigate. When Isabel asks him how he did it, he said he "just knew"... once again I keep wondering if this is knowledge that he has somewhere in his mind from his previous existence, or has it been programmed into his brain (perhaps one of the programs that didn't get completely transferred due to their early hatching), or is it a species memory thing. As a second-in-command type of guy, it makes sense that he would be a navigator... or at least have that ability as part of his make up... sort of like Gilligan to Max's Skipper (ok, bad analogy, but I'm in a cold-medicine induced haze). I don't really think Michael is receiving boosters from an outside source. I think that each of them have these memories somewhere in their brains; they just haven't been able to tap into them yet. 07-25-2000 02:25 PM Reggie Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote: Originally posted by LSS 2.About the parking meters. I asked the same question last February! In fact, I wondered if Max was not just manipulating matter--but actually creating it. After several science types posted I think we decided that the elements in the meters could probably not be rearranged into sparklers -- but that this is one of those times that calls for the suspension of our disbelief. In other words, we don't look toooooo closely at those sparklers!!! LSS Originally posted by Qfanny Ok, I'm no expert in parking meters, but my current job involves working with billing utility meters. In my city (Lincoln, NE) we have many electronic meters downtown. If the meter is electronic, I see no problem with Max creating an electronic fire in the circuits thus creating the sparks. But then again, my job is in the billing, not the maintance. Qfanny. Well, I don't think there's enough energy in an electronic fire in one of those to create fountains of sparks. But... there is a possibility! One of my hobbies is the American Revolution. (We do encampments, mock battles, etc.) It is very possible to strike sparks from a piece of steel; that's how we get sparks to light gunpowder, to fire our guns. (But I digress...) If the cases of the parking meters are steel, then vigorous scraping would remove filings, and the friction would heat them hot enough to burn. This would make exactly the sparks we saw. (It's also how sparklers work, only the iron filings are made first, and heated by burning pyrotechnics.) OK, we know that Max can "manipulate molecules". If he were to scrape off particles of the meters' steel cases, this would generate sparks of the right sort. [Edited by Reggie on 07-25-2000 at 02:32 PM] 07-25-2000 03:24 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Reggie, I'm wrong about those meters. The are mechanical meters. They look nothing like the electronic meters we have. [Edited by Qfanny on 07-25-2000 at 04:10 PM] 07-25-2000 04:06 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Everyone pull out your VCRs and check the background of the scene where Doug and Liz escape the radio show and sit in the CrashDown. I think Kyle and Max have set up the character of Doug Shelow beforehand by calling him Dog Boy and Mr. Shallow, respectively. Now, I never noticed this before. When they enter the crashdown, a customer is leaving too. You hear the door bell as the customer exists. While standing in front of the doors, notice the lights in the background look like the "V" constellation. They are directly over Doug's shoulder for the entire time. Listen to the dialog. Doug really could be talking about something else!!! Doug: "I think we're safe for now. It's probably the last place they'll look for us tonight." Liz: "Yeah, it's not exactly Shay Pierre." (I don't know French) As they sit down, notice the guy behind Liz reading the newspaper. Could this guy be our mystery alien that reignites the fire on the library lawn? Doug: "Perfect. It's just what I wanted to do tonight! Get to know the real you." (Ok, this confirms Doug thought a lot about this date and has an agenda of sorts. And what the heck is Doug looking at? His eyes are all over the place. It looks like he recognizes someone. Perhaps he knows the guy behind Liz.) Doug: "I'm afraid-- how much more normal can you get?" (Doug is looking as something behind Liz!) Liz: Laughs. "I guess that's a sort of contradiction in terms. You know, being normal in Roswell." Doug: "Hmmm. No wonder why you entered the contest. I mean, who are you going to find here anyway? An ALIEN??" CUTS TO LIZ: (Where did the guy behind her go? He's gone, including his chair! You can see the front door when the camera is on Doug and no one left. I didn't even hear the door! Is it just me or does anyone else think it's very strange that someone would just vanish right after Doug says, ALIEN.) CUTS TO DOUG: "So what's good here? Beside the waitresses." (I wonder about the plural here? Perhaps if Rocklowery is right, Doug is an alien and he knows this is a good spot to find a human girlfriend.) Liz: "Oh, um. You know, I don't want to miss the concert. My friends are playing and I would---" Doug: "Yeah, we have an hour before it starts. Besides, I wanted you all to myself." This conversation seems innocent enough until you notice the disappearing man in the background. [Edited by Qfanny on 07-25-2000 at 04:16 PM] 07-25-2000 04:17 PM pixiedude Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny Okay, I'm going to give you more fuel for this fire with my anagrams Doug Shelow = Should we go? = Would she go? ... I missed the last 10-15 minutes of SH, so I didn't see them retrieve the orb. But didn't they have to dig it up? Perhaps his name is a forerunner, to be interpreted, "Dug she low?" 07-25-2000 04:33 PM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 AMX - did you send it to my regular e-mail, as listed in my little user ID thing? I don't seem to see anything from you in my e-mail. 07-25-2000 04:59 PM Reggie Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny I'm still confused on Max though. Are you saying that because of his alien essence, he has a different blood chemistry. The blood chemistry he has could have accelarated the process or are you saying that his cellular make up just won't handle any alcohol. Zero tolerance. (...) Or does my theory that the connection with Liz cured him somehow holds more water? It seems to me that, since the podsters are physicaly human (mostly), Max's body was probably reacting to the alchohol in the human fashon. The problem was when his mind ("the ghost in the machine") reacted to this external insult. It may be that alien essences are much more succeptable to being knocked off balance by physical incidents. (See Michael's unexpectedly strong reaction in Balance.) The kiss / mental cohabitation with Liz might be what restored him to his right mind. As for the next moment, Max's first words: "I'm sorry." He knows! Then he starts sputtering; the lie/truth oscillation observed earlier. He apologizes for "ruining" her date. Her reply: "You didn't." She knows her Maxes: the drunk, who will tell the world of his love for her; and the shy, sober fellow behind the tree who loves her just as much. (She just can't get him to say so.) Except, endearingly, this once. [Edited by Reggie on 07-25-2000 at 05:04 PM] 07-25-2000 05:06 PM plumeria Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 981 I posted this on the "how closely were you paying attention?" thread, but it seems like it would be appropriate here, so I'm going to post it again (and I haven't seen it yet here, in my skim-through). When Michael is explaining the symbol map, he says that the buildings match the symbols when Aries is directly overhead (in April, he notes). This is why they're at the library, right? Well, if the symbols match the buildings in April, why are they at the library in February? 07-25-2000 05:27 PM Reggie Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote: Originally posted by plumeria When Michael is explaining the symbol map, he says that the buildings match the symbols when Aries is directly overhead (in April, he notes). This is why they're at the library, right? Well, if the symbols match the buildings in April, why are they at the library in February? Because the stars are always there! (This is something lost, on city folk.) The whole sky, full of stars, is "on" all the time. The part visible at a specific time shifts slowly, as the year progresses. For example, the stars above the horizon are the same at midnight April 1st, 6 PM on July 1st, noon October 1st, and 6 AM January 1st. It shifts about two hours each month, so that sky is "up" at 4 AM on February 1st, and 2 AM March 1st. Of course, while the Sun is up, the glare obscures the stars (and all planets except sometimes Venus). If the Sun's glare is removed (as during an eclipse, or in space), the stars can be seen. It's the show that never ends, Step outside, Step outside. Come and see the show! (couldn't resist) [Edited by Reggie on 07-25-2000 at 05:34 PM] 07-25-2000 06:48 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 All the epihanies I had this morning from reading all of your posts are gone, gone, gone *sob*. But what would be even sadder IMHO, is if Max really didn't remember everything that happened while he was with Liz that night. Off to the airport, will post much, much later somewhere. Long live the Anagram site even if Qfanny is two sheets to the wind. 07-25-2000 07:00 PM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny CUTS TO LIZ: (Where did the guy behind her go? He's gone, including his chair! You can see the front door when the camera is on Doug and no one left. I didn't even hear the door! Is it just me or does anyone else think it's very strange that someone would just vanish right after Doug says, ALIEN.) [Edited by Qfanny on 07-25-2000 at 04:16 PM] Qfanny: I don't know--there was some pretty bad editing on this episode. At the beginning, when the radio DJ is interviewing Liz in the crashdown. Maria is by her side, then NOT! It is really weird. But it isn't a story element--just bad editing. Someone else mentioned that the POV between Kyle and Max when Max takes the infamous sip is skewed too. Look at that scene again--it looks like one person should be standing around 3 feet away to get the perspective of the shot. Then again--it all may be significant. But I thought I'd draw your attention to two famous "bloopers" that appeared in this eppy (esp. since the one with Maria is similar to what you noticed in that scene with Doug and Liz). LSS 07-25-2000 08:44 PM rocklowery Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 quote: Originally posted by LSS quote: Originally posted by Qfanny CUTS TO LIZ: (Where did the guy behind her go? He's gone, including his chair! You can see the front door when the camera is on Doug and no one left. I didn't even hear the door! Is it just me or does anyone else think it's very strange that someone would just vanish right after Doug says, ALIEN.) [Edited by Qfanny on 07-25-2000 at 04:16 PM] Qfanny: I don't know--there was some pretty bad editing on this episode. At the beginning, when the radio DJ is interviewing Liz in the crashdown. Maria is by her side, then NOT! It is really weird. But it isn't a story element--just bad editing. Someone else mentioned that the POV between Kyle and Max when Max takes the infamous sip is skewed too. Look at that scene again--it looks like one person should be standing around 3 feet away to get the perspective of the shot. Then again--it all may be significant. But I thought I'd draw your attention to two famous "bloopers" that appeared in this eppy (esp. since the one with Maria is similar to what you noticed in that scene with Doug and Liz). LSS The man is over her right shoulder, not behind her. The perspective for these shots changes to Dougs POV so we see the area behind her. The man isn't mysteriously gone, just not in the camera's view any longer. 07-25-2000 10:05 PM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Thanks for clearing that up for QFanny, Rocklowery!!! I didn't have a chance to go back and check that scene...all I remembered were the editing problems in this eppy!!!! LSS 07-25-2000 10:21 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 If a blooper it's a significant one IMO. I really watched the tape and took into combination what has happened. I did see a camera angle change, but from what I can tell, part of the guy should still be visible to the left of Liz 9would be Liz's right side). But camera's have a way of playing tricks on you too-- and I know that from my old television broadcasting days. But consider these facts too... 1) Max and Kyle set up Doug Shelow as Dog Boy and Mr. Shallow right before the scene. 2) The conversation Liz/Doug have is just plain strange for small talk. And Doug's eyes are all over the place. 3) Add the mysterious looking guy in the background that could be the guy at the end of BD-- And the fact the he disappears (whether it's bad editing or not) immediately after Doug says the word alien. This just add up to be creepy. Well, you still make excellent points and probably this wasn't intentional by the writers. I admit, I got carried away. Qfanny [Edited by Qfanny on 07-25-2000 at 11:37 PM] 07-25-2000 11:35 PM rocklowery Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 Qfanny, I went back and checked for the disappearing gloves at the beginning of the eppy and noticed that there were actually two bloopers in that one scene: Liz starts out with the gloves on, loses the gloves while talking to Alex and they mysteriously reappear just as the KROZ folks walk in the door. I think the disappearing guy was just another blooper due to bad splicing. Maybe they shot the scene a couple of times from different angles and used the best pieces from each shoot. If they reshot the scene on different days they might have just dropped the guy out of the scene entirely the second time. I'm not involved in the movie industry, this is just supposing on my part. Any film people out there? 07-25-2000 11:44 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Yes, I got the impression too this scene could have been shot on two different days. I used to edit videotape and I do have experience working in this media. (albeit not very glam experience). Perhaps a more logical explaination would be a scripting change that took place in the middle of shoot. Doug's eyes are all over the place. (Tell me if I'm wrong.) And it does look like he was saying "hi" to someone at one part in the dialog. Maybe I should go to the cutting room floor and check things out. In any event, if it's a blooper, the editors of the show would know about it. It's not the type of thing you just overlook because it does look weird. I just don't like Doug. Can you tell? 7/26: I thought about deleting everything I said prior to this on Doug Shelow and the disappearing dude. I've now watched this eppy 10x and I must agree with Rock and LSS. Especially after watching the magic gloves and jumpy Maria. It's all crappy editing and direction. It's too bad I've nitpicked this to death because it sort of takes the magic away from one of my fav episodes. Still Doug is creepy. [Edited by Qfanny on 07-26-2000 at 09:28 AM] 07-25-2000 11:50 PM amx Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 601 Qfanny, your question is what, in essence (sorry about that very weak pun!) what I was trying to avoid answering. I think both options are possible, since we donít have enough knowledge regarding alien physiology and biochemistry. Both the zero tolerance, or accelerated blood/brain uptake could be a function of the differing biochemistry, but we are given insufficient information to determine which it might be. My knowledge of biochemistry is rather antiquated (I studied biochem at university nearly a decade ago now) ñ so my answer to your second point may be compromised by this! The nature of hormonal function is generally not characterised by rapid effects such as we see in Max. Hormones are mainly synthesised on an as-need basis, therefore concentrations in the body increase gradually as cellular manufacture progresses. Even at the lowest concentrations, they are functional, therefore their effect is seen to gradually increase until optimal concentrations are achieved (ie all available receptor sites on the target cells are occupied). Through a negative feedback system, the manufacturing cells are ëswitched offí until the hormone is required again. However, there are some more rapid processes that are not strictly hormonal, but similar in overall effect ñ extreme allergic reactions for example which involve histamine release ñ triggering inflammation and other physiological effects. Unfortunately, such processes are often accompanied by massive cellular death, which is one of the reasons why they are so dangerous and require immediate medical treatment (notwithstanding some of the other serious effects, such as constriction of the airways etc. On the coyote element ñ as rocklowery indicated, the coyote is the form most associated with the trickster in Native American myth. He tends to appear when all is not as it seems! I'm afraid I have to dash - but if I have time I'll post more on coyote myths. amx 07-26-2000 01:26 AM deidra e, jones Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 944 Also cats and birds! Overall nature is respected by Native Indians. Although in the United Stated, more information surrounds the wolf/dog aspect of Indian culture, the others which was mentioned also apply strongly as well. 07-26-2000 01:35 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 Dang! I'm having so much trouble getting through to the Crashdown stuff tonight - is it just me, or is it more troubled than usual? Can't get page 2 to fully load. LSS: Absolutely no prob! I'm not heated, just passionate, which I suspect puts me in good company here. And it's so rarely these days that I'm getting opportunities for discussions involving intelligence, imagination, and passion, that that in itself is cause for excitement! Wow, what theories abound! I, too, broke out in hives bec. of Mr. Shallow; because of his eponymous personality, though, I still find it hard to credit him with any deeper motivations than ego. Far from probing Liz, I just got that here's a man who would talk about himself for hours, as long as any captive audience would listen. Thanks for the correction on the images, Qfanny? I knew there was one I was forgetting. Yup, that one of Liz was from SH; she's just always an exception, isn't she? What college was G'ma Claudia affiliated with? Was she? Was it the same as Doug's? (Forgive if already mentioned on p2, as it won't load completely at present.) There was a really cool coyote thread a while back, and I lost the bookmark when my system went flooey and ate all my bookmarks, but maybe someone has it? LSS: Yes, I know that Max has to lie at times; but just judging from relationships I've had with men (not a statistically significant sampling, by any means), he's extraordinarily truthful w. Liz, as if that's the one indulgence of his honorable self that he's allowed. It's refreshing, and not the least of the reasons that tears come to my eyes when the reality intrudes that Max is fictional. (He's that honest, he'd *have* to come from another planet, wouldn't he?) It has often struck me that these teens are the worst liars on the planet; in terms of the socially correct lying others mentioned before, these guys are dolts! I was a fairly truthful person as a teen, yet when an adult was looking to intrude or misconstrue, I was certainly quicker on my feet than these 6! One thing about Max and lying: he seemed to have found a different style of evasion by the last episodes, which I thought was testament to the extreme duress he's under all the time: notice how he evades Sheriff Valenti, I think in TL&V. Sheriff: I think I know how you feel now. Max: What do you mean? Sheriff: Not having anyone to talk to. Something tearing you up inside. Not being able to get it off your chest. MAX: Is that what you need to do, Sheriff? (Valenti tells him about the fire and Topolsky dying.) SHERIFF: There was a crazy thing my father used to talk about... something called a shape-shifter... someone who could take on the form of another person. MAX: There's no such thing as a shapeshifter. SHERIFF: What if there is, Max? Notice how extreme pressure (This is serious Max. People are dying. People you love, etc.) has taught him that the less he says, the safer everyone will be. Valenti has nothing to grab from him here, and anyone spycam-ing him would have nothing usable either. He employs this method later in White Room, and because of it, Pierce is goaded into giving him information. Max learns more from his interrogation than Pierce does. He's growing up fast. Pretty amazing for a teenager to withstand that kind of stress; talk about trauma! (still moved by what jenlev pointed out) Gotta go - gotta make it home at least one day before sunrise! [Edited by Michelle in Yonkers on 07-26-2000 at 01:46 AM] 07-26-2000 03:21 AM plumeria Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 981 Thanks for the reminder astronomy lesson, Reggie. (I DO know that the constellations are always "on" but I didn't know specifically about the 2hours a month shift concept. I just recall that in my astro class we had to observe a constellation at the same time every night and watch it move. But Michael didn't specify what time Aries is overhead in April, did he? and thus make the adjustment, 4 hours "sooner" for Feb... 07-26-2000 03:34 PM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote: Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers LSS: Yes, I know that Max has to lie at times;... he's extraordinarily truthful w. Liz,... It's refreshing, and not the least of the reasons that tears come to my eyes when the reality intrudes that Max is fictional. (He's that honest, he'd *have* to come from another planet, wouldn't he?) [Edited by Michelle in Yonkers on 07-26-2000 at 01:46 AM] Sigh. Yep. LSS 07-26-2000 11:39 PM rocklowery Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 We're on the verge of going to page 3 so I'm bumping this thread. Too tired to think of anything right now. I'll be away from the boards for the weekend, so I look forward to playing catch-up on Monday! 07-27-2000 12:01 AM ROStaFEHRian Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 Hi! Just some quick thoughts on BLIND DATE. I saw it for the first time Monday. I had not even read the script. I liked this ep a lot. It was 'intoxicating' and bittersweet. I had to watch it several times. I was struck by the shifting layers of altered perceptions. Fantasy, reality, intoxication, the surrealism (like the dinner scene with the DJ commenting from his the table), altered depth, time and motion perceptions, mirrors and windows. Altered camera angles and scene expectations/ direction. I am always caught off balance in the scene when Maria comes in the door with the bag of clothes for the band and suddenly the camera shifts and we see her appear over Liz' shoulder. Everytime the band/Maria count and start to play/sing, the camera cuts to another scene. There was something quite off-kilter.. somewhat discomfiting ..that kept me off balance during this ep. And not in a bad way. My perception was that it was done deliberately, and, actually, quite masterfully. That does not mean that there were not editing errors as many have pointed out. I just have not searched for the ones mentioned, but I'll check them out over the weekend. I DO think that the camera deliberately was playing with the changing depth/distance perceptions to reflect Max' altered perceptions after he takes the drink. Also liked the changes in the red color that briefly "vibrates", like something living, behind Kyle. I had a strange feeling, a flutter in my stomach, a tiny startle, when I saw Fantasy!Max outside Liz' window. I gasped at the breathtakingly beautiful and ethereal stillness about him..as if he were floating and ephemeral. Liz turned from the mirror, I noted her smile and gaze of recognition and I "knew" she saw juat before we did. And I BELIEVED it was the real Max. But, nevertheless, suddenly I had a jarring and disturbing feeling. Like I was seeing an apparition. I briefly wondered why he had this air of eternal sadness or wistful longing, like a ghost visiting a place of love and life in another plane of existence. I felt crying because the scene was so achingly beautiful. I experienced this in the seconds before we realize it WAS just a fantasy (at least that is what I believe the intention was) and I was surprised. I thought I'd share that because the feelings I have from that scene have stuck in my mind for days. I hope it is not prophetic. Note, Liz goes from mirror to window, yet when she is jared from the fantasy by the car horn, she is in front of the mirror and then goes by the window. Intentional perceptual trick or editing error? I think the former. Note also (and you don't even have to do a 'gracekel', ie, slo-mo, to catch it) Fantasy!Max has a distant, far-away gaze that does not appear to be directed at Liz, almost as if she were not there. It is only after a few moments that he "sees" Liz. My breath caught in my throat. What do you guys think. I did shed a few tears at Max' sweetness in the scene where he tells Liz they can go away together, change their names, be together. (Max: I see so clearly now...this is how I really feel... dreamgirl; Liz: you're drunk...not real..fantasies go away..etc). And she so sweetly but rationally brings reality home. Again a confusing and bittersweet juxtaposition of clarity/intoxication, fantasy/reality, honest feelings in fairytale language, truth in intoxication and lies/hiding in sobriety...etc I like the significance that he is running, and running, and way ahead of her before he stops and uses the words "running away". It is sweet and heartbreaking because I actually DO think he knows the answer to his questions as he asks them of her. The truth is he can't run away. This was such a great scene. BTW, JB was so phenominal in this ep it was almost unBERHable. I can't get this ep out of my mind. Even more than TOY HOUSE in some ways it is has such power. I don't have much to add about the alcohol intoxication. AMX was quite correct about the the persons suggestibility, expectations, beliefs, etc influencing his/her perception of being "drunk". The ?alien kids may not have a fully-functional gene for ADH enzymes or down-regulated receptorsor they have very permable lipid membranes in the brain. Interestingly, the ADH gene may be linked to the GABA (gamma-amino-butyric acid) gene (chromosome 4) which is important in alcoholism research. Both alcohol and barbiturates and benzodiazepines potentiate the GABA neurons and are synergistic. While it is a thougt that Pierce could have had what he wanted a lot quicker with just a tiny swig of alcohol (as someone mentioned) it makes sense that it might not occur to the torturer/interrogators in the past to "experiment" with alcohol intox. as a method. A little bit of alcohol is disinhibiting, but a lot is anesthetizing. I'll see if I can find something more, but I suspect it is the alcohol-GABA neurotransmitter interation that is important. Liz looked fantastic. Breathtaking. She also looked like a priestess in black robes when she put on the gold trimmed shaw. I was dreading it, but when she actually sang, Majandra was quite good. Her voice is very good, nice rendition (and I am not one who is easily impressed). Before I go, just a heads up: go to Scientific American website. In the most recent issue (?July) there is a very nice, very readable (even non-science people will be able to read easily and enjoy it) about the probability of alien civilizations existing, barriers to detection, a timeline for a galaxywide diaspora, hence, colonization, and nice graphics too. Don't have the url handy, use a browser. I believe it is the full article, but even if an edited version, it is complete enough. I also second JENLEVs post about the psychological trauma. Nicely stated JENLEV. Does Doug resemble a certain rodent? Actually, if it weren't for the archeology references (how cinvenient), I'd dismiss his. Oops. Amost forgot. Had to edit in what I wanted to say in the first place. What I think Max wanted to say to Liz in the car (just before they were so rudely interrupted by gun fire in the beginning of DESTINY) was just what he said to her on the street in BD...to the tune of: if we survive this, lets go away somewhere..just the two of us...change our names..etc.. ROSTA [Edited by ROStaFEHRian on 07-27-2000 at 12:51 AM] 07-27-2000 04:16 AM jenlev Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there, rostafehrian: thank you! as always i find your posts clarifying and creative. i also agree with you about what max was going to say to liz in the beginning of destiny. jenlev 07-27-2000 07:53 AM Reggie Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote: Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian Just some quick thoughts on BLIND DATE (...) I had a strange feeling, a flutter in my stomach, a tiny startle, when I saw Fantasy!Max outside Liz' window. I gasped at the breathtakingly beautiful and ethereal stillness about him..as if he were floating and ephemeral. Liz turned from the mirror, I noted her smile and gaze of recognition and I "knew" she saw juat before we did. And I BELIEVED it was the real Max. But, nevertheless, suddenly I had a jarring and disturbing feeling. Like I was seeing an apparition. I briefly wondered why he had this air of eternal sadness or wistful longing, like a ghost visiting a place of love and life in another plane of existence. I felt crying because the scene was so achingly beautiful. I experienced this in the seconds before we realize it WAS just a fantasy (at least that is what I believe the intention was) and I was surprised. I thought I'd share that because the feelings I have from that scene have stuck in my mind for days. I hope it is not prophetic. But it is! It shows us what Liz dreams of: a Max who loves her, and says so. What does she get, later in the evening? A (drunken) Max who loves her, and says so. Hurray! He apologises for "ruining her evening". Her response: "You didn't." Liz had a dream come true that night. Must be nice. In my experience, if you tell a woman you love her, she bolts. Of course, I'm not so attractive, or Talented, as Max. Good thing I kept the "paper bag" icon. As for the rapid sobriety of Max: I don't know where I posted it, so I'll repeat myself here. I think that Max's essence was knocked off balance by the alchohol, causing a ~different sort of~ drunkenness. When he was told to "convince her", he used "reversed flow" images to show her how he had seen her, how much he loved her, and for how long. (Pretty effective!) While they were in contact, her (human) essence re-balanced his (alien) essence, causing him to regain his sobriety. This may have knocked hers off a bit, making her susceptable to the visions from the Orb. This also explains why Liz has been and will continue to be a vital part of Max's world: She balances him. For that matter, all the humans may balance their alien partners, somehting which advises against pairing up as the "mom-o-gram" and book suggest. [Edited by Reggie on 07-27-2000 at 08:03 AM] 07-27-2000 10:13 AM ROStaFEHRian Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 HI Reggie, Thank you for your reply and for sharing your thoughts. I do agree that the humans and ?aliens truly balance each other, as a group, and in their "pairings". Indeed they each contribute to the strength of the "wholeness". They are strong together. I'm stating all this kind of clumsily. As you say, the scene was prophetic in the way you described it, which I like. However, I was referring to different type of "prophetic"..a separation in time and space (symbolized by the mirrors and windows). But of course an argument could be made that, by the symbolic coming inside the room through the window, Max can return again. Love conquers all..love is eternal..sigh! R Hi, JENLEV! 07-27-2000 04:12 PM Jamethiel Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 14 I had two thoughts while watching Blind Date that haven't been commented upon above. First, I thought the podsters couldn't "create life" which I got from Max in "Leaving Normal" but Isobel doesn't seem to have any problems "growing the grass" back in the signal left at the library. Was that "molecule manipulation," a "timeshift," or true "creation" of a living entity (grass)? Secondly, I thought that the burning of the photograph by the mystery man/alien was a signal back to our podsters..."an answer" so to speak. If I have my timeline in place, Blind Date takes place before Independence Day, leading me to believe the "mystery man/alien" was Tic Tac Nasedo or someone who has been actively watching our podsters. Finally, I'm with JenLev on the "playful" Max, he only uses his powers gleefully when drunk, and that is so sad and tragic a thought, that I'd be amnesiac, too. 07-27-2000 04:35 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Jamethiel : I think it was just sloppiness on the writers' part, but she could have just colored the grass green to hide the dead stuff. Maybe she even replaced it with artificial turf. Good catch anyway! 07-27-2000 05:16 PM jenlev Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there, palomino: regarding your artificial turf comment....once again i am falling down laughing! thank you! reggie: good point about balance, perhaps it's a metaphor for the balance between the alien planet and earth? jamethiel: good point about the grass... perhaps she shifted the color of the burnt grass in a similar way to changing the nail polish and lipstick? by the way, it will be interesting to see if any of the podsters begin to develop their playfulness (even in the face of the 'dread-destiny') as a way to defend against the angst of the situation they are in? rostafehrian: hello back to you! your last post brought an image to mind. in 'max to the max' there is a shot of max looking from the jeep at pierce. a clip of this is also shown in white room when max sees pierce unmask himself. part of the shot shows pierce looking at max...and max's face in the rear view mirror of his jeep (and off to the side the back of his head as he looks at pierce?). it strikes me as eerie given the symbol of mirrors and windows seperating space and time. especially as the charactors are about to dash about the hall of mirrors hunting for the real max. in a way, max is also looking for the real max too? perhaps i am reading too much into this? instead of " alice through the looking glass" it's the 'podsters through the looking glass'? or the podsters in wonderland? (re: the interpretations thread...) jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 07-27-2000 at 05:35 PM] 07-28-2000 10:57 AM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Hey, Reggie, I don't get how Liz could sober up Max by connecting with him since his drunkeness was chemically caused. I don't think a mental link could remove alcohol from his blood. This is getting into the relm of "Roswell Magic" rather than science. (We have quite enough of this on the show already, which should keep any real sci-fi writers joining the show scrambling to do damage control for a while.) If his drunkeness had a chemical cause, it should also have a chemical resolution. The coinsidence of him sobering after kissing Liz might be explained by his cellulary alien body getting "excited" by the kiss, which triggers the release of some alien version of adrenolin or a hormone that would react quickly with the alcohol and render him sober within seconds. Maybe it's not romantic, but more satisfying - to me anyway. 07-29-2000 05:31 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 On prior threads, I posted some evidence for the view that Liz, not Tess, represents one of those four personages who lived and died amid strife on the aliens' home planet. (Not that Liz is anything but human, not that she was ever in a pod etc., but just that somehow she has been given something of that fourth one's personality. So that it was natural for Max to love her and recognize her at first sight.) I would like to compare this idea with some of the symbols in the story. There is that set of cell-like figures with dots in them just left of the center fold of the paper: On the interpretation I have been considering, the four cells with a squarish shape are the four lives originally meant to be somehow restored as alien/humans. One cell is broken: I think this one is now lost. This was a crisis to which each of the two Nasedos responded: Liz's nature reflects GN's effort, apparently with Claudia's cooperation. ("She is like the basis of my existence.") I think the triangular cell (added on the right) represents Liz: a new intact cell in different form. (Is the V shape another Venus reference?) The unenclosed dot on the left could represent Tess; BN's creation, I think. Could the absence of an outline suggest that she's not corporeal, that her appearance is a delusion? That could account for her not showing up in the sheriff's telephotos, if her "deceiver" works only out to a certain range. (Well, she did once delude someone at the distance of Valenti's house, but maybe she exerts that effort only when she know it's necessary.) But setting aside conjectures about Tess, I think there are firmer grounds for viewing the rest of the figure as representing M/M/I and Liz. Consider some similar images in the pilot: Note the 4-drawer file cabinet in the Sheriff's office that he walks past to interview Liz. We see mainly the upper 3 drawers. Their squarish fronts, with small label holders in the middle, resemble that cell diagram. Added on top of the cabinet is a box with an oval handhole, serving as another drawer. Then look at the row of 3 pictures behind the sheriff. With those central ovals, don't they look cell-like? Then, when the sheriff plunks down Liz's book bag, it too is marked by an oval. Something from Liz, in different form but with a common central element, completes the four. It amazes me how many of these 4 = 3 + 1 symbols there are in the pilot, starting with the candles on both sides of Liz in the very first scene. And note that it is from out of the stars that the camera descends onto Liz here on her balcony. So if something in her nature really does derive from beyond the stars, they can say "We told you so." As an illustration of what I mean by a 3 + 1 pattern, here's a scene from RD (council meeting after the burglary): See the 3 + 1 in the tree-like pattern to the left of Max's eyes? (And does that figurine represent River Dog giving his blessing to the arrangement? My wife has him pegged as GN, and her batting average is pretty good....) Here's another favorite from RD: Just before this, we see 3 pictures next to Max's window, in an L-shaped layout with an empty corner. When Liz is framed by the window, that makes four. In the pilot, the band room is full of imagery. Four drums: three timpani, one bass drum. Scale on the wall behind Liz is in four flats (which fall naturally into two pairs!). We see Ab and Bb, then Eb etc. Where is the fourth flat (Db)? Liz is in its place. [Can it be that all these things are accidentals?] A band room is (ideally) a place where people can get away from the surrounding clamor in order to prepare to perform as a group; usually the time of testing, the performance, will be somewhere else. Sounds like Earth in AlienMom's plan. But when Max and Liz go there seeking sanctuary for a serious discussion, someone is already there, speaking of costumes (disguise) and playing on those 3 drums. Hmmm. The next bandroom scene begins with a focus on 4 chairs in a neat row amid others. (There is a 5th, but it's askew. Tess?) Liz pops up in front of one of these, 3 remain. We pan 4 stands laden with music: 4 roles to play to make up a larger whole, if the players so choose. After Alex enters, left of him in a backlighted display are 4 trophies grouped 1 and 3. On the wall behind Alex (see next) are 4 plaques, also arranged sort of 1 and 3. Also a fire extinguisher, which may symbolize the emergency facing GN when the original 4th came to harm. All this lends a new meaning to that exchange with M/M/I in the jeep "You mean there's more of us?" "One more." Then look in slo-mo after the Jetta passes a white building (marked with a sign PV / A, large A) with bushes in front. There are 2 tall bushes, a space, and 4 shorter ones grouped 1 + 3. Like 2 adult aliens (BN and GN?), then Liz + M/M/I. Here is Liz in the art room, questioning Max. The next closeup, just after she learns of the 3 aliens, includes just 3 of the faces on the wall behind her. I love it: Liz plus M/M/I make up the original four, here already in the pilot. But there is one more object in that closeup: a green thing with no form that I can discern (can anyone make it out?), hanging low, casting that long shadow you see here above/right of Liz's shoulder. A hint of Tess? Note added 5 Aug: The other half of a 4 vs. 3 comparison just sank in: In BD, when Maria joins the band, the pitch she calls for is E-flat. Now, the key of Eb has 3 flats. Whereas, when Liz was in the picture (above), the scale behind her was the Ab scale, having 4 flats, and she stood exactly in front of the fourth flat the whole time until she bolted from the room. (The notes were written just far enough apart to permit this -- a few inches either way would have uncovered the fourth flat or started to cover up one of the others or both. It's hard to imagine that a setup with so little leeway that still worked was unintentional.) [Edited by Nemo on 08-27-2000 at 09:14 PM] 07-29-2000 05:33 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 Early in this week's episode (BD), as Liz arrives at school, the background has another of those 2 + 2 = 1 + 3 messages. (Look how the big dots are grouped into panels.) If it is correct to identify Liz as the successor to that fourth personage on the alien home planet, then maybe this episode suggests something of the history of former Liz and Max. Especially since someone made sure we could see that the radio in the beginning is also a tape playback unit: twice it is shown with big letters saying AUTO REVERSE. The episode begins with a closeup of Alex's guitar. Right there on the soundboard is a stylized outline of the US. There's another US map on his shirt. [Remember, Valenti also unexpectedly had a US-flag shoulder patch on his overcoat in the pilot, just before he accosted Kyle.] Putting this with something pixiedude said about Czechoslovakia, and a few other symbols, I am guessing that the symbolic story is about a proposed union of two neighboring lands, to be cemented by a marriage of former Max as leader of one and former Liz of the other. Symbolized by that scene with the red and green zones on the curbs, with Max in one zone and Liz in the other, meeting at the lamppost at the boundary of their realms. [Kyle worked in a reference to the Greeks and Romans. In the opening recaps, something draped behind Liz's head was at an angle reminiscent of those Egyptian headdresses in the old movies. In HW, one of the throwaway characters was given the name Octavio (a musician -- I get it); perhaps this name was also meant to evoke Octavian's time, when Egypt did have a queen, Cleopatra (who did marry a foreign "prince"). Also, when the radio announcer calls Liz a queen and puts a tiara on her, it's much like the one she was wearing already, the one "not of this earth"....] The idea of a unity combining two separate equal states could be symbolized by the speakers on that big boombox, echoed visually by the close-up of the jeep headlights. Also, the KROZ frequency 101.2 looks suggestive. Perhaps there had been tension between the two states. [Symbolized by Alex and Maria's disputes about the band, settled by Diplomat Liz.] Maria's song at the end tells of a last meeting which was also a first meeting. Maybe the marriage was arranged from a distance, with the two of them meeting in person for the first time. An ultimate Blind Date. (But very likely Liz has been writing him letters. She would be good at that.) Doubtless they love each other from the first. But enemies thwart the plan by poisoning Max, possibly at his own wedding banquet. ["Take a sip. What's it going to do, kill you?"] Symbolized by the sudden severity of the alcohol's effect on Max, and his loss of memory. [Note also Liz's earlier reference (on the list of "SAT words") to something mortifying. And Alex's song "Love Kills..."] If there's any validity to such an interpretation, that could fit with those faraway looks Rosta pointed out (or some of the disjointed feel). And it makes the songs especially haunting. "Do you remember..." On Earth, maybe Romeo and Juliet get another chance.... [Maria to Liz: "... your dream guy, tailor made, the human version."] [Edited by Nemo on 07-30-2000 at 07:35 AM] 07-29-2000 06:14 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Nemo : I'm glad to see you are not missing in the "Roswell crash" tonight. About the symbol of dots in the linked boxes, the one on the right a V shape and the one on the left open and another dot: 1. Just to the left and a little above is the symbol from the orbs that we have seen several places that people are calling the "whirlwind". In the center of that is a triangle, also pointed down like the box on the right. Maybe these downward pointing triangles are a symbol of Max's planet, government, status, or himself? A V is certainly similar. Maybe the symbol is not so much following Liz around as it is Max? Maybe Liz being the chosen mate of the leader would also come under the "V-house" and she is being identified as the chosen one rather than the arranged one? When Liz was using the Library computer, she said that Venus completed the V. Does she complete Max? and the "House of Max"? 2. The other three boxes with dots could be the other podsters ( the cave drawing was done in 1959, so Nasedo could have been drawing what he was planning to work on). The box with the open end could be a younger shapeshifter that was hatched to replace one or more that were killed in the crash, to help with the protection of the podsters, since they were a little shorthanded and the FBI or bad aliens could kill whoever was left at any time. The one outside could be an adult (Nasedo), who was orchastrating the project. 3. The open box could have represented one of the original adults sent to protect the podsters and was "connected" to the unhatched hybrids. The one to the left and not connected to the pods could have been an adult that had left the group, was working remotely from the group, or had betrayed the group (Harding or Tictac?). Anything here usable in your theory? P.S. These poor threads are missing more parts than an alien after an autopsy! [Edited by Palomino on 07-29-2000 at 06:48 PM] 07-29-2000 07:01 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Nemo : I just thought of something. Michael said it was a map, and used it to call up one of the aliens. Wouldn't it be totally humiliating if we were coming up with ideas on symbolism that were really nothing more than a building or parking lot on a map of Roswell? (Maybe the dots were pepperonis on pieces of pizza, at his favorite place to eat?) Just kidding. 07-29-2000 07:13 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 Palomino, always glad for friends who help me not to take things too seriously. 07-29-2000 07:28 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Nemo : Thought you might appreciate the humor. (Pepperoni on the side?) The previous post was serious. What did you think? Any of it plausable or likely? "Venus completes the V formation"? 07-29-2000 10:48 PM anothertrinity Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 12 hey kids. ok. Rosta: I absolutely agree that the perception thing with distance between him and Kyle when Max takes a drink was intentional and was actually brilliant editing rather than crap. Also regarding ADH (Alcolol Dehydrogenase)could sort of "not be selected for" on the home world. the scene imediately reminded me of First Conact when Troi gets trashed because she hasn't really encounted ethanol before. 07-29-2000 11:16 PM RachelBrightEyes Addicted Fan Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 641 Wow, before I happend upon this thread I thought there was not much sci-fi to my favorite episode, Blind Date, just a lot of Max and Liz action (not that I'm COMPLAINING, hint hint, writers and producers!!) but now all you posters have put me to shame! I think I will have to get more involved in these discussions. --Rachel 07-29-2000 11:45 PM pixiedude Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 quote: Originally posted by Nemo ) That could account for her (Tess) not showing up in the sheriff's telephotos, if her "deceiver" works only out to a certain range. (Well, she did once delude someone at the distance of Valenti's house, but maybe she exerts that effort only when she know it's necessary.) [Edited by Nemo on 07-29-2000 at 07:23 PM] I'm impressed by your imagination, though I still think a lot of this is probably accidental. But as far as Tess's ability, in Destiny they made a point of showing one of its major limitations. She has to cloud the mind of someone that she knows is watching. There's the scene where she makes 2 FBI agents think Pierce is in the street, talking to them. She doesn't know Kyle is watching from inside the room, behind one of the agents, so she does't put an image of Pierce in his mind, and he asks the agent Pierce has left to watch him what he's talking to, because he can't "see" Pierce. 07-29-2000 11:57 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 quote: Originally posted by anothertrinity hey kids. ok. Rosta: I absolutely agree that the perception thing with distance between him and Kyle when Max takes a drink was intentional and was actually brilliant editing rather than crap. I never meant to imply that shot to be crappy editing or direction. Yes, it's good direction. They used this type of shot all the time. 285 South comes to mind. Nemo & Palomino: Thanks for giving me more info to think about, as always. Qfanny. 07-30-2000 06:30 AM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote: Originally posted by RachelBrightEyes Wow, before I happend upon this thread I thought there was not much sci-fi to my favorite episode, Blind Date, just a lot of Max and Liz action....I think I will have to get more involved in these discussions. --Rachel Absolutely! Welcome to the SF of [episodes] threads RachelBrightEyes--where analysis and discussion of SF rules! LSS 07-30-2000 07:35 AM GraceKel Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1028 Nemo thanks for answering my question about the lack of TESS in those photos that Sheriff Valenti took in TLV at end and were shown in 4 Square, these have absolutely stymied me, I was like is she invisible? Is she an illusion or what, is this a blooper, and since when did Mr Harding wear glasses? Or shake Liz's hand or Liz smile at him now you have given me food for thought about that, the first one to address this I believe. 07-30-2000 09:20 AM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 Some have suggested that GN (or TicTac or whatever he is called) may be playing the role of Doug Shellow here. (I would like to give better acknowledgement, but don't remember who or where, probably on the Significance of Liz threads.) If so, that could fit with some things: 1) If his eyes are "all over the place," that sounds like someone habituated to guard duty. Also, if there is a time-travel dimension to the story (hinted at in this episode, I think) in which time displacement has been used to hide our friends, so that the enemies have to search across time, that could fit with Shellow's remarks: (roughly) "We should be safe here; this is the last place they would look tonight." Also his comment about others "searching 24 hours a day." 2) Often the writers give us parallel or symmetrical events. Since they have showed us BN kissing Liz under false pretenses, it would be just like them to show us GN kissing Liz, so as to contrast the two styles. [Especially since they have Max foreshadow here the BN incident by making the two Max faces, as pixiedude pointed out.] Shellow does not pretend to be someone Liz wants to kiss. He shows consideration for her feelings, tries to make the obligatory kiss as easy as possible for her, and makes a quiet apology. Also a practical suggestion about how to escape further awkwardness. 3) If my wife is right to identify River Dog with GN (lots of if's here), that fits with the name games the writers cause Max and Kyle to play: They start morphing Doug into Dog and Shellow into Shallow, which can relate to River. [Edited by Nemo on 07-30-2000 at 09:22 AM] 07-30-2000 10:32 AM anothertrinity Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 12 I never meant to imply that shot to be crappy editing or direction. Yes, it's good direction. They used this type of shot all the time. 285 South comes to mind. Qfanny. I had better watch it or I am going to kicked off the boards for being jerky! Qfanny: I appreciated your post about the editing, I had noticed those things too. 07-30-2000 10:34 AM Reggie Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote: Originally posted by Palomino Hey, Reggie, I don't get how Liz could sober up Max by connecting with him since his drunkeness was chemically caused. I don't think a mental link could remove alcohol from his blood. This is getting into the relm of "Roswell Magic" rather than science. (We have quite enough of this on the show already, which should keep any real sci-fi writers joining the show scrambling to do damage control for a while.) If his drunkeness had a chemical cause, it should also have a chemical resolution. Well, sure. If it had a chemical cause, it should have a chemical resolution. My thesis is that it was a different condition than (human) drunkenness. Point 1: Max is biologicly human, with minimal differences. Point 2: Max had a very small dose of alchohol, by human standards. Conclusion 1: Max was not (humanly) drunk. If he had been, he should have sobered up long before the end of the show. He was surely something though! Point 3: We don't know how alcohol affects the alien "essence". (Shucks, we don't know how it affects the human "essence"; we barely know how it affects the human brain.) Point 4: We do know that the alien essence is more susceptable to being knocked "off balance" than the human one is; that's why "the sweat" affected Michael more than the humans. Conclusion 2: Max's alien essence was probably more susceptable to alchohol than Kyle's human essence was. Given Conclusions 1 & 2, I conclude that Max's alien essence was knocked off balance by the small sip of alchohol just as Michael's alien essence was knocked off balance by the fumes of the sweat. As I said, a ~different sort~ of drunkenness. The cure in both cases was to re-balance the podsters. Re-balancing takes very little time (relative to sobering up from drunkenness), and Max's recovery took very little time. It also happened in contact with a trusted person who is in balance, just as Michael's recovery did. I believe that there is enough parallelism to declare an analogy. quote: The coinsidence of him sobering after kissing Liz might be explained by his cellulary alien body getting "excited" by the kiss, which triggers the release of some alien version of adrenolin or a hormone that would react quickly with the alcohol and render him sober within seconds. While I'm sure kissing Liz is exciting, would not the race immediately after Max got drunk have generated more adrenaline? Not to mention the ladder climbing. Plus, adrenaline is not a "sobering" agent. Alchohol is metabolized at about 1 oz. per hour, independent of other factors. For him to be fully drunk, then fully sober a few seconds later, cannot be explained by biochemical means. Only mental reactions would work that fast; another point in favor of the "drunkenness" being a pathology of his "essence". Science, not biochemical hocus-pocus. 07-30-2000 11:19 AM GraceKel Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1028 Nemo I have one question for you about the possibility of TICTAC(GN) being Riverdog which I think is a plausible theory, but it has been suggested by some that if Riverdog is a shapeshifter why would he be able to participate in the sweats that made Bad Nacedo(or whoever) and Michael sick? I think there could be other explanations for this myself but I know this was one reason people thought it could not be him so what are your thoughts? 07-30-2000 11:21 AM Reggie Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote: Originally posted by Nemo The idea of a unity combining two separate equal states could be symbolized by the speakers on that big boombox, echoed visually by the close-up of the jeep headlights. Also, the KROZ frequency 101.2 looks suggestive. Hmmm. 101.2 is not a valid FM radio frequency. FM frequencies are assigned at oddd tenths of a Mc.; e.g., 101.1, .3, .5, etc. AM stations are every 10 Kc., on the ten: 1000, 1010, 1020, 1030, etc. quote: In the pilot, the band room is full of imagery. Four drums: three timpani, one bass drum. Scale on the wall behind Liz is in four flats (which fall naturally into two pairs!). We see Ab and Bb, then Eb etc. Where is the fourth flat (Db)? Liz is in its place. (Can it be that all these things are accidentals?) ROTFLMAO! Are you suggesting that Liz is flat? I think not! I think she's quite sharp. Puns intended. 07-30-2000 12:35 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 quote: Originally posted by Reggie Hmmm. 101.2 is not a valid FM radio frequency. FM frequencies are assigned at odd tenths of a Mc.; e.g., 101.1, .3, .5, etc. I appreciate this observation. It reminds me that the story Roswell is fictional, free to differ from the one on our maps (on which Bitter Lake, for example, is a wildlife refuge, not a residential suburb). The creators play by rules of their choosing, which are for us to discover. (Apparently, if it's possible imagery vs. the FCC, the latter doesn't stand a chance.) Unless we discern what game they are playing, it is easy to miss part of the story (and to misjudge the quality of play). I think I understand and enjoy the story much better since I began to subdue the internal censor ("But that's impossible!") and grow more like Humpty Dumpty, who told Alice he could believe six impossible things before breakfast. In particular, I suspect that several of what seemed like bloopers may be meant for clues about things like space/time manipulations or something else that bears watching. (And if some of you know a likely answer based on the books, I hope you will allow others of us the fun of finding it out gradually from clues in the television series, not all at once.) [Edited by Nemo on 07-30-2000 at 01:21 PM] 07-30-2000 01:22 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 quote: Originally posted by Reggie Hmmm. 101.2 is not a valid FM radio frequency. FM frequencies are assigned at oddd tenths of a Mc.; e.g., 101.1, .3, .5, etc. AM stations are every 10 Kc., on the ten: 1000, 1010, 1020, 1030, etc. I did not know that... the things I learn on these threads!!! I'm assuming, as Nemo suggested, that this is just artistic license.... kind of like having everyone's phone prefix begin "555"... of course, the best example of when 555 is not used was that song from the 80's about Jenny, Jenny... (867-5309) Every one with that phone number got deluged with phone calls looking for Jenny. re; v-formation and Venus - I agree that somehow Liz completes the formation. It has already been suggested in several places that she represents Venus... and it is pointed out that when Venus moves into position it completes the V. But I did notice that the formation actually has four stars + Venus... that means that the other "stars" are the original tripod + one more. Who is the other? Tess? GN? Or maybe there's someone else out there???? 07-30-2000 02:08 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 GraceKel, your enthusiasm is an inspiration to me, and your observations and questions have sometimes been very helpful. For example, I'm really glad you pointed out the NO SUB sign and asked me about Atherton's calendar. (Although some questions can take me weeks, so I hope you understand if I don't answer promptly.) About River Dog's being unharmed by the sweats: I don't see how that would exclude him as a candidate for GN, without using some questionable assumptions. We can't be sure GN has the same nature as the person who suffered a disruption of 'balance' according to River Dog's story. (After all, humans differ in susceptibilities: for example, some of us get allergies, some don't.) Also, we don't know whether it's possible to build up a tolerance gradually. For all we know, the story about an earlier healing might even be a fiction by River Dog, meant to assure our friends he knows how to cure Michael without admitting how he knows. (Michael to RD: "How come you know so much about us?") [Edited by Nemo on 07-31-2000 at 12:40 AM] 07-30-2000 03:25 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 Reggie, I never meant to imply that Liz has any intonation problems; I would imagine she has perfect pitch. [Edited by Nemo on 08-04-2000 at 07:24 AM] 07-30-2000 07:38 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 Some more things that may be signals or noise, as pixiedude said. From River Dog: 1. On the back wall are those twin tapestries, both with patches, a little like the midwest as seen from the air. Like two neighboring countries. At the top (higher than seen here), one pictures a man, the other a woman. (Both have dark hair.) It reminded me of this week's Max/Liz scene with the red/green curb zones. 2. This same picture has that treelike symbol with the 1 + 3 form pointed out earlier. Soon a similar figure is seen in the lights along the street (L side of the road as the jeep passes a building). 3. In the Evans home (behind Diane) is a picture with three diamond shapes side by side. At the cafe (in the pilot) one more diamond is seen next to Liz: One of her necklaces has a symbol like this. Also, there is that diamond-shaped window in the back of the cafe: often we see Liz through this, or light from it projects a diamond shape on the adjacent wall. Where the sheriff pulls over Ms. Topolsky, across the road is a diamond-shaped pedestrian sign with the usual human figure in it. Doesn't it look uncommonly high? 4. When Michael complains about Maria nervously pouring sugar back and forth, behind her arm we see that 420 sign that has been identified as a coded reference to drugs. One interpretation is that this foreshadows someone in the story getting drugged. Maybe this fits with the idea that former Max was poisoned. 07-30-2000 09:37 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 Palomino, thanks for your suggestions about symbol interpretations. They are slowly soaking in. The ones about other possible characters that we haven't seen yet I will postpone for lack of clues. I am intrigued by the one about the triangle (as opposed to a dot) in the center of the symbol that I used to associate only with the Whirlwind Galaxy. Now I wonder whether Liz (or the group of 3? 4? 5?) has some central importance there. There is that picture in the school hallway about the white-water rafters, about working together. So if your team learns to work well together, you can get through something dangerous? 07-30-2000 10:29 PM greyling Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 2 Just delurking for a second time to say I really liked your clues Nemo! I'm tying to get through all these "threads" to find good stuff. Anything else this good? (I found out what UCs are! - YUK!) a newbie 07-30-2000 10:38 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 If four podsters were smuggled to Earth, were they brought by one ship or more than one? BD has me wondering about this, because we see two stealthy departures: Max eludes Kyle by leaving unexpectedly early; Shelow and Liz dash out a back door. Maybe Max also uses a time displacement ("you weren't that far ahead of me" "There's no ladder." -- "Yeah, now")? I suspect Max's actions partly parallel those of one ship to Earth, but I'm wondering if there was another, symbolized by Shelow + Liz. (Not counting opposing pursuers, just Mom's bunch.) Another question is how many orbs there are and what else are they for besides verifying the identities of the four and replaying that message from Mom. This could relate to the first question because, if there were more ships than one (like the WR escape: 3 cars splitting up and converging at the old mine, one being late to arrive), the orbs could have been meant to help the parties find each other on Earth (maybe in time as well as spatial location). Some things that make me wonder about this are 1) Several times we see a rendezvous about to fail because someone is late, or hear of "losing track of the time." Liz, in the pilot, late to meet Kyle (repeatedly: he calls attention to it). Maria late for the car-swap to elude Ms. Topolsky. Now Maria late for the band performance. I wonder if this hints at some delayed rendezvous in the backstory, which could explain some of those seemingly empty years. 2) One wonders why the "communicators" aren't more covert. This could be more understandable if they are also for finding each other. 3) Is there a third orb? In the pilot, lighting and angles seemed to bring out three orb-shaped objects in the cafe: the two familiar ovals on the front doors, and this one of the clock (viewed obliquely). [Two for space and one for time? Or just coincidence?] 4) In 285 South, the Aladdin's lamp on the motel door seemed at least vaguely suggestive of the orb shape (also, it lights up and a Genie appears to answer your deepest questions -- what could be more like an orb?) and the room number 3 was adjacent to this. 3 orbs? But the 285 trip also seemed symbolic of a journey to Earth; and Michael trashed Maria's "communicator" before they got that far. So maybe 4 to begin with? (I don't see how to get farther with this, so I'll just keep looking.) [Edited by Nemo on 07-31-2000 at 04:45 PM] 07-30-2000 10:49 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 Greyling, you honor us by choosing this thread for your first posts on the board. And thanks for the compliment on my stuff. I have learned a lot from the others here too. [And plumeria's threads about how closely were you paying attention, and the Importance of Liz threads.] If you like the detail things, they are on all the SF threads, which you can find with the Search function. Last time I looked, I think Destiny was the oldest one still available. The six before that (SH through WR) have fallen off the board but some of us still have the files. Best wishes, and see you around. [Edited by Nemo on 07-31-2000 at 04:55 PM] 07-30-2000 11:14 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 Palomino, check out the shoulder patch of the state policeman who stopped Michael on 285 S. Isn't that your center-of-the-galaxy triangle and Liz's (or M/M/I's) diamond shape combined? 07-30-2000 11:23 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 Nemo - Re communicator stuff Speaking of two communicators - what about Michael and Maria's references to each other as "vibrators"? They communicate via vibes in the air... and there are two of them. I think that their comment is also pertinant in explaining the need for humans and aliens to work together. Michael also made the comment that perhaps they needed to connect to humans to gain information. If you follow that thought, it seems kind of interesting that both Harding/Nasedo and Tess were determined to break up the alien/human relationships.... maybe to be a kibash on part of the original plan? (oooohhhh, we're having a big thunderstorm here tonight... AZ style!!! Fun, fun, fun! ) 07-31-2000 05:20 AM uriah Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 217 Okay I feel a bit simple posting on this thread because everybody seems to be deep in thought with a lot of nouse to back it up me I just watch tv but I guess I'll give it a go.. Firstly with regards to the whole issue of Max being drunk, well I don't think that he was drunk rather more effected by alcohol and even though the biological make up and bone structure of Max are completely human his blood cells and his brain functions are different....in White Room Nasedo tells Michael that everything they can do is human but extremely advanced, so it might be entirely plausibe that alcohol would have an advanced effect on Max... I also think that to a certain extent Max did lie he may not have been entirely certain of the finer details of the night but I am positive he was aware of what went on otherwise what would have driven him to give in to himself and kiss Liz at the beginning of sexual Healing... I think that Max had an idea of what had happened but at the end of BD he was still fighting his feelings and didn't know how to aptly deal with the situation...so he denied it (as we all do)... The reason that I think that michael can navigate the symbols is knowing now(post Destiny) that Michael is the Second in Command it would be natural to assume that he would be the military grunt the strategic tactition therefore while Max is getting images of the communicators blah blah Michael is unlocking his own sets of knowledges....ie each of them remembers recalls information especially pertaining to their former roles in life... The whole I/M scenes in this episode are fantastic though when you look at them at face value one would assume they preepmt the on coming of the discovery that they are destined to be together, I am inclined to think otherwise. I think these scenes highlight the deep caring that Isabel has for Michael and how each of them are there for each other not in the romantic sense there is no sensual or sexual energy btwn them rather a deeper understanding that can only come from family.... Lastly the song that Maria sings the Phil Collins song has different meanings to each of the characters on different levels...The song is is foreboading of what is to come and this ties into the image at the end of the person walking away...it is also about the coming breakingdown of walls btwn M/M and M/L as well this the song is aboutr remembering...who they are where they come from....the song although I don't think she sings this verse is about to a certain extent an abandonment and retribution for a loss... well this was fun hope it wasn't too boring so very sorry if it was 07-31-2000 05:58 AM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 uriah : Thank you for the post. I think you're right about Max remembering the evening. He may not have known exactly what he said, but he had a good idea, and knew he had been more romantic. He didn't seem to know what to say to Liz once he sobered up, and was probably embarassed. Nemo : Cool about the patch! The policeman certainly would be an authority figure which would go with my theory that the downward pointing triangle is a symbol of alien Max, his alien family, his alien government, or his planet. Is it a coincidence in symbolism that Michael was stopped and questioned about what he was doing, but not punished for his actions by the authority figure? 09-06-2000 09:56 PM Nemo Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 I would like to bump this thread before it falls off, because people on other threads keep raising questions that are discussed here, and I would like to be able to refer them here instead of starting over. But if we are not supposed to just bump without adding something, what can I do? I have it: here is a post by Palomino that I never answered, but on mulling it over with his later posts I partly agree, and would like to say so. quote: Originally posted by Palomino About the symbol of dots in the linked boxes, the one on the right a V shape and the one on the left open and another dot: [the figure referred to is on p.3 -- N.] 1. Just to the left and a little above is the symbol from the orbs that we have seen several places that people are calling the "whirlwind". In the center of that is a triangle, also pointed down like the box on the right. Maybe these downward pointing triangles are a symbol of Max's planet, government, status, or himself? A V is certainly similar. Maybe the symbol is not so much following Liz around as it is Max? Maybe Liz being the chosen mate of the leader would also come under the "V-house" and she is being identified as the chosen one rather than the arranged one? When Liz was using the Library computer, she said that Venus completed the V. Does she complete Max? and the "House of Max"? Reply: I think former Liz and Max were leaders of neighboring states or groups that were going to unite (or make peace, or both). (Symbolism of the two sides of the V separate at the top, together at the bottom. Related to the Union Pacific symbols elsewhere [pacific = peaceful].) Yes, Liz completes Max (and also vice versa). quote: Palomino's post, continued [a,b,c added for reference -- N.] 2. (a) The other three boxes with dots could be the other podsters (the cave drawing was done in 1959, so Nasedo could have been drawing what he was planning to work on). (b) The box with the open end could be a younger shapeshifter that was hatched to replace one or more that were killed in the crash, to help with the protection of the podsters, since they were a little shorthanded.... (c) The one outside could be an adult (Nasedo), who was orchestrating the project. My interpretation of (b) is different (see below) but I now think you are right about (c), and I think that adult who genuinely cares about the podsters and is loyal to AlienMom's cause is TicTac. I believed (a) already, and tried to say so before. I think the boxes with dots represent the future podsters at a stage prior to starting the incubation in the pods. Perhaps at that stage the "essences" (premixed with human genetic material?) are stored in vials, symbolized by those blood-sample tubes with names on them (in BB). [And I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out that some of the vials got switched (like those blood samples) -- could that be why River Dog sometimes acts as if he thinks Michael is the leader? But there are problems with that; I don't see how to work it out any better, and it's a whole other topic.] I think the opened cell represents something like a broken vial, an emergency: the human material in that one becomes unuseable for incubation, and soon the essence too will be lost unless other arrangements can be made in time. I think it is at this juncture that TicTac works out some kind of desperate deal with Claudia, whose outcome is that eventually Liz gets the essence. (No, this does not make Liz an alien, and she doesn't have podster powers, nor was she ever in a pod. Only symbolically is she among the podsters as they emerge from Atherton's basement. But I think it does make her the person Max has been looking for, and it may partly explain her ability to pick up visions more than other humans.) (Also, I am not implying any sexual connections involving Claudia here; that doesn't seem like a way to transfer an existing "essence" unaltered; instead, if it worked at all, it would create a new combination, right? Besides, so far it hasn't been suggested that TicTac is even related to any of the podsters, has it?) This seems to give a double meaning to Alex's words to Liz in the band room, checking whether Liz is OK (while standing next to that fire extinguisher, symbolic of the emergency mentioned above.) It also adds irony to Liz's retort to Isabel, "Yeah, well, at least my parents know what species I am." I think that's technically correct, Liz, but oh, the things you don't know yet.... Also, Palomino, wasn't it you who proposed a second interpretation of the V made by the stones in the cave wall and their places on the drawing? That besides being a map it's also partly a history? I think that's right too. It looks like an update to the Momogram, explaining the improvised response to the emergency, besides warning that two parties with opposing intent (two sides of the V) are converging on the podsters. [Edited by Nemo on 09-06-2000 at 10:24 PM] 09-10-2000 09:11 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Originally posted by Nemo : Also, Palomino, wasn't it you who proposed a second interpretation of the V made by the stones in the cave wall and their places on the drawing? That besides being a map it's also partly a history? I think that's right too. It looks like an update to the Momogram, explaining the improvised response to the emergency, besides warning that two parties with opposing intent (two sides of the V) are converging on the podsters. Nemo : Yes, and yes. I had thought the V was the two sides (SSer and Evil Aliens)as they converged at the podsters. Of the five stones Michael placed in the cave drawing, the one at the bottom of the V was on the symbol of the pod chamber rock formation, thus representing the podsters. The one at the top of the left side of the V was on the whirlwind symbol, which seems to be a good symbol always seen in blue light and apparently representing Max's people. The stone at the top of the right side was on the Saturn-looking symbol which I had thought was representing the Evil Aliens (yellow/gold light). With the new promo out for the second season, I am even more sure, because once again the Saturn is in yellow/gold and is in a menasing sequence with other images. BTW, the middle stone on the left side (Max's people), is on the symbol of the string of cells we think represent the podsters during incubation. More specifically, I believe it is on the one adult dot - a representative of Max's people to carry out the plan. I know this may sound confusing, but for those that are interested, try drawing the V with the stones in place over each symbol, and you will see what I mean. The only stone that is still in question, in my mind, is the middle one on the right (E.A.)side, because I'm not sure what the symbol is of. The drawing of the symbol is rather intricate and has changed on the program. It looks like it might be a solar system (where the E.A. are from, or where they are lurking in ours?) Sorry to ramble. I just thought it was interesting. 09-11-2000 10:35 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 I posted the picture of what you're refering to. I admit. I've forgotten a lot about what happened on this thread. Nemo & Palomino: Thanks for always offering us less technical types something worthwhile. And I appreciate your foresight in bring this thread back up. I'll come be to take another look soon, but right now. Bed. From Nebraska Qfanny Remember is not an 09-12-2000 08:05 AM SF Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 101 Hi Palomino and Nemo It's been such an age since I last posted that I'd almost forgotten my password. I just wanted to offer another interpretation of the symbol the middle right stone is placed on. It does look like a diagram of a solar system, but it could also be a flight plan or a glyph of the crash. If you follow the dots, they spiral inward across the "orbital lines" towards the central "planet". This could be indicating that the evil aliens were involved in the crash. I've had some time to lurk lately, and although I'm not entirely caught up on the SF threads, I'm pretty up to date on the last 2 or 3. I was very intrigued to see the top right symbol refered to as saturn-like. I missed who initially came up with that idea, but it's a good one. Anyway, with saturn as an image in my mind and Nemo and GraceKel's blue vs red-orange theory, I was wondering if anyone had yet made any connection between the red accretion disk in the SH visions and the saturn symbol. I think Nemo and Palimino interpreted that image identically (Nemo in the first SH thread, and Palimino in the second) as an accretion disk around a black hole. I've always had problems with that image (Nemo might remember), to me that black sphere in the center seems way too 3 dimensional. On a much more practical note, how common are accretion disks around black holes? I'll offer my alternate idea again. Bear with me, we're going into extreme SF land now. Rather than interpreting the black sphere as a black hole, it could be interpreted as a sphere world. They're not common in SF, but you run across them every now and then. Larry Niven's Ringworld stories are probably the best thought out, but obviously aren't a full sphere. The idea is to build a sphere around a sun, thereby having a much larger surface area for your population to grow on. It's also energy efficient in that all the solar energy can be harnassed. A sphere world would also explain the accretion disk. Even though a sphere world's surface area is huge, it's limited, so an efficient way to deal with it's non-recyclable waste would be to put it outside the sphere. So over time a waste accretion disk would be formed. If the saturn symbol does indicate the evil aliens, then the sphere world with the red accretion disk could be their home. So then a reinterpretation of the early sequences in SH could be the destruction of the home planet (by the evil aliens), and Max's people being taken as captives to the alien home planet. Well that was a fun exercise. Hopefully I'm not repeating someone else's ideas and maybe y'all can incorporate or modify some of them into your theories. Palimino, I really enjoyed your orb theory on the crazy thread. By the time I had a chance to read it, anything I could have posted would have been out of context, but it was very well done. SF 09-12-2000 08:50 AM ROStaFEHRian Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 95 Hello SF, I almost fell off my chair. I am full of emotion. Can I tell you how much I have missed you/your posts at the Crashdown! (Even though I rarely post anymore and can barely lurk becuase it is just too darned hard to get here). quote: Originally posted by SF "orbital lines" towards the central "planet". This could be indicating that the evil aliens were involved in the crash. the red accretion disk in the SH visions and the saturn symbol. to me that black sphere in the center seems way too 3 dimensional. I'll offer my alternate idea again. it could be interpreted as a sphere world. They're not common in SF, but you run across them every now and then. A sphere world would also explain the accretion disk. SH could be the destruction of the home planet (by the evil aliens), and Max's people being taken as captives to the alien home planet. Well that was a fun exercise. SF I LOVE this theory SF. It appeals to my sensibilities, creativity, and sense of wonder. FUN should be what this is all about anyway. I thought the central "circle" in the diagrams/cave rendering was, relative to the other objects, not large enough to be a sun. What you say makes such sense as a possibility. I also think it could be a floor map, ie, monument. Don't stay away so long. Perhaps when the new season starts you will be compelled to post more ??!! ROSta 09-12-2000 09:35 AM SF Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 101 Hey Rosta Thanks so much for welcoming me back so warmly. It's nice to be remembered. I try to keep up just on the SF threads. Everyone is so prolific that just reading them takes a lot of time. Hopefully I'll be in a position where I can make time to post when the new season starts. Right now I'm procrastinating on everything I should be doing... SF 09-12-2000 10:41 AM ROStaFEHRian Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 95 quote: Originally posted by SF Right now I'm procrastinating on everything I should be doing... SF I know that feeling well! Would love to hear more how YOU integrate your own idea into events in Roswell and/or other theories discussed. Check the private message function. I sent you a note. R Copyright (c) Fan Forum 2000. All rights reserved.