Topic: The Science Fiction of Crazy
max2000 Posts: 201 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 07:27 PM
I'm getting this thread started since it isn't up yet and it's high time we got it going. Since I'm new to the scifi threads I only have one question for now: What is the significance of the two orbs? I will read the spoiler scifi threads to try to learn more, but your insights here are greatly appreciated. I look forward to learning from you all in the days and weeks ahead! Next week: Tess, Lies, and Videotape!
Dawnee Posts: 96 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 07:30 PM
Didnt Topolsky say that they were communicators?? I think that they only work when they're together or something...
Dawnee Posts: 96 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 07:31 PM
Sorry for the double post.... The board gods are acting up.... LOL
[This message has been edited by Dawnee (edited 04-10-2000).]
Kate6058 Posts: 1010 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-10-2000 07:52 PM
Hey guys, we should let LSS start this next time... it's her thread! No problem though, max2000... thanks for starting it up early.
Anyway... what a different Roswell! The camera angles made the biggest change, I think, and it was a lot darker than usual.
I feel like I can't talk about anything! The orbs... I already know what they do. "Communicators" was an interesting way for Topolsky to put it... my biggest question about her is what they did to her in Washington?? I'd love to find out... but I think we might later on in White Room...
Okay, I can't post anymore, lol. I'm going to spoil someone...
Chrise Posts: 72 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 08:07 PM
Max2000, If you will read the spoiler page on crashdown.com it tells what the orbs are for. I am afraid to say because all the people who hate spoilers will curse me. Also what if my interpretation is wrong then I will feel like an idiot.
Can someone tell me why Nasedo stopped the pod squad from meeting with Tapolski. I have 2 theories but I need some help.
charliej
Junior Member
Posts: 4 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 08:17 PM
I think Nasedo stopped them from meeting Topolsky because he didn't want them to get caught and he knew something was going to happen. I won't say how he knew, even tho I think I know.
BehrAll Posts: 81 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-10-2000 08:23 PM
Can I just say one thing about the communicators? (And I have been spoiler-free for some time now, so I could be way off base here.)
Does it make sense that communicators only work if they are in close geographic proximity? Doesn't that kind of negate the whole purpose, e.g. long-distance communications? Boy am I looking forward to the explanation for this one ...
stargazer__2000 Posts: 138 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 09:03 PM
Thanks Kate6058 and chrise for stopping before the spoiler. I wish others would be as kind.
The idea of this thread, if I may be so bold, is to gather the facts presented so far and come up with all the possibilities, not to get the answers because you read next weeks script. I'm assuming the SF gang(west coast guys) will be here after it's 1 am here on the east coast? Looking forward to some of their thought provoking questions.
As for the orb, I thought it was a biological clock/recorder/signal device, I have no idea why there are 2 of them, unless each alien or group of aliens have their own. I'd like to know where they found the other orb?
As far as the shape shifter, don't like him,
never did, I still think he's another alien culture, and is probably working in the FBI as their alien hunter.
LSS Posts: 565 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-10-2000 09:51 PM
Sorry I'm late but I couldn't get onto the board!!! Thanks Max2000 for getting it started.
********************************************
With Crazy we get our first glimpse of "Roswell Revamped" and it is an interesting sight indeed. With two of our three human/alien couples in place, the writers are free to explore the SF aspects of the show with a healthy dose of adventure and action thrown in. At least three elements of the show stand out concerning its SF framework:
1. ON ALIENS AND ALIEN HUNTERS. Conspiracies within conspiracies--this episode introduces us to Pierce the ruthless alien hunter, who answers to no one and appears more inhuman than our aliens.
And what odd alliances are forming! Valenti, the previous hunter emerges as Valenti the protector of our gang. Topolsky, the FBI guidance counselor becomes the frantic potential friend who begs our aliens to take her to their people (and what people are these you might ask). And who did you think Topolsky was referring to when she told Valenti that she had been the first to come in contact with the "subject"? Was she referring to Max? Is that why she was brutally questioned? Or was it some other alien--one in captivity?
And throughout these frantic scenes one is struck by how M/L and M/M are trying to led their "normal" teenage lives down to gifts of bubble bath (or in the case of Michael generic shampoo AND conditioner).
2. SHAPESHIFTING ALIENS AND THE FBI. Our favorite shapeshifter appears again in this episode along with his little box of pills/tic tacs ???? Are we thinking pain relief here??? Or some type of energy replacement?
And did anyone else find it slightly suspicious that his intervention allowed Topolsky to be captured by that elite alien hunting unit? (Along with the second orb?)
And WAIT -- WAS that our favorite alien shapeshifter from SH -- or was it another one? How does one recognize one shapeshifter from another? And is it possible that he is working with the FBI?
3. ORBS AND ALIEN COMMUNICATION. We now know that there are TWO orbs--the one found by M/L in SH and one secreted away by the FBI. Just how the FBI obtained that orb, of course, is as yet unknown.
After SH we speculated as to the orb's function. According to Topolsky, however, it is a communication device that only works when the two are together. The information that Topolsky gives us leaves more questions than it does answers. Do both orbs work in concert? That is, are both necessary for a single communication? Or are we talking about a transmitter and receiver?
AND HOW DID TOPOLSKY KNOW THAT THE ORB ONLY WORKED WITH ANOTHER ONE??? THAT MEANS THERE HAS TO BE AT LEAST ONE MORE OUT THERE, OR ELSE THEY WERE TOLD HOW IT WORKS BY AN ALIEN INFORMER.
And how was the orb in SH able to work by itself?
Well SF posters and lurkers WHAT DO YOU THINK???
LSS
Rain Posts: 64 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 09:54 PM
Hi all!
I have not looked at the spoilers so none of this is spoiler material! This is only from Crazy, so if you haven't seen it yet, don't read.
Topolski said that the orbs were communicators to contact their people, and that Michael would have to take her with him. I am so sad to see that the Sheriff got one and the FBI has the other!
And I think that Topolski was going to lead the "bad" FBI people right to Max. That's why Nacedo stopped them from meeting her. But still, I don't get it why the FBI couldn't fin Max themselves...I don't get it.
Maybe I'm missing something, I'm going to go watch it again and quit rambling...
Rain
DSP Posts: 322 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 10:12 PM
I've always had the impression that Nasedo hates the other 3 aliens. He burned their picture, he spies on them, he appeared to Valenti as Michael's foster father, he purposely tries to keep them from finding out anything about who they are and where they're from,etc. Why won't he reveal himself to them? I would think he would be happy to find the other 3!
Help!
amx
Member
Posts: 47 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-10-2000 10:34 PM
I haven't seen "Crazy" - it won't air here in Australia for some months - but I'm a spoiler-a-holic and just have to make a couple of quick points.
Firstly, LSS, I'm not convinced that in SH the first orb was actually working. Yes, it was producing light and noise, but that just served to betray its presence, rather than fulfilling what we now know is its substantive function. So, under the right circumstances, there seem to be some functions that can be accessed without requiring a second orb. It will be interesting to see whether there are any more.
Secondly, perhaps proximity is required to 'tune' the devices after a long separation? Alternatively, for safety reasons the necessary components of the communications device could have been divided into two 'packages' to prevent unauthorised/unwitting use. It would make sense for there to be other units, but we have no direct evidence for this.
Last point - Are the FBI perhaps unwitting pawns themselves in the greater game?
amx
TrueAccent Posts: 186 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-10-2000 10:55 PM
Hi all! I am new to this particular thread, but I love reading all of your posts. LSS, you raised some really great questions. I think this episode really raised some questions about whether Nasedo is helping or trying to hurt them. Interesting....
One thing that particularly caught my attention. When Topolsky was talking to Sheriff V, she mentions that Max isn't the only one. My first reaction was that she was talking about Michael and Isabel. But as I watched it the second time something about how she says it makes me think she is talking about 'others'. Do you think she knows about Nasedo, or maybe there are even more?
LSS Posts: 565 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-10-2000 11:40 PM
TrueAccent: I agree with your observaton. Especially when Topolsky says that she wants Max to have his people take her with them. Whoa--poor Max has spent 16 episodes wondering who those people are, only in this episode to find that earth is a lot smaller than our three ever realized!!! And am I the only one that found it odd that Topolsky AND Valenti and strangers (psb Pierce) in cars all of a sudden "know" our aliens?
amx--good point. Since we don't know WHAT the orb does and how it does it, we can't be sure it was functioning at full strength in SH.
DSP: You know I've always tried to be cautious about branding nesedo as "evil" on the scanty evidence that we've had. But why in the world would he intervene (if it was him) with a cover story that would be blown as soon as our aliens talked to Topolsky if he wasn't sure that they would never see Topolsky again? Unless there really was a doctor, and Nesedo at the last minute took his place? It is very suspicious. And why has he not revealed himself to our gang--why the stalking?
LSS
Faith Evans
Junior Member
Posts: 13 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-11-2000 12:03 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
Sorry I'm late but I couldn't get onto the board!!! Thanks Max2000 for getting it started.
********************************************
2. SHAPESHIFTING ALIENS AND THE FBI. Our favorite shapeshifter appears again in this episode along with his little box of pills/tic tacs ???? Are we thinking pain relief here??? Or some type of energy replacement?
And did anyone else find it slightly suspicious that his intervention allowed Topolsky to be captured by that elite alien hunting unit? (Along with the second orb?)
And WAIT -- WAS that our favorite alien shapeshifter from SH -- or was it another one? How does one recognize one shapeshifter from another? And is it possible that he is working with the FBI?
Well SF posters and lurkers WHAT DO YOU THINK???
LSS
Hi I'm new to this thread though not to this board.
Great post LSS as always, This is exactly what I'm wondering, At the end I was left with the feeling that perhaps Nasado was working with the FBI? Otherwise why not just shapeshift into one of the 6 and pump her for info himself? How in the world did he know all this was going down? I know he can shapshift into anyone and as a result can be anywhere and no will know, but still?
And the doctor who talked to the group, is there a real (FBI has to be) doctor out there with this face living and breathing (Sorry for the life of me I can't think of his name.) or does this mean there's another dead body out there now, is this the only way he can shapshift if there is? I know that question has been asked before on this thread but i just had to state it again.
Help anyone have any ideas, My brain can't come up with anything and all of you are so good at coming up with stuff that actully make sence, unlike me. Sorry for just repeating things I'm just confused a bit.
Faith
Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 25 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-11-2000 01:13 AM
A couple of random responses before I hit the hay here...
I think the shapeshifter was Nacedo. There's just no reason in terms of plotting to assume it wasn't at this point. And I'd guess he pulled that act with Valenti and the gang to keep them from actually meeting Topolsky because he wanted to keep them out of the hands of the FBI.
Topolsky was acting erratically throughout the episode -- often allowing herself to be followed. My guess is that the FBI death squad *let* her walk away in D.C. with that communicator because they knew they could track her easily and that she would eventually lead them to our heroes. Once they saw her make an exchange like that (giving her "orb" over to the one that Max and Co. already have), they'd finally have the concrete proof they've been seeking and be able to pick the kids up.
Nacedo's "doctor" act simply prevented that from happening. And at that point, having lost the kids, the FBI probably decided to cut their losses and pick her up.
Remember, they're dealing with Valenti here as well. He's really the wild card in all this. And I wouldn't be too worried about his having the orb. In fact, I think all that talk to the kids about Topolsky being mental was just an act on his part. He still knew Stevens was dead. Assuming he believed that Nacedo really was with the FBI, I expect he went along with what went on because he wants the government out of his town as quickly as possible.
This is his turf and he probably figures he can protect them better in a familiar setting. And I'm convinced he's been on their side ever since he shot Hubble in "The Convention."
As for Nacedo's ultimate intentions...I'm still not sure. I didn't like the way he resolved Michael's problem with Hank so, er, permanently in "ID." But he does seem to have the kids' best interest in mind.
As for the ceremonial burning of the photograph of Max, Isabel and Michael -- look closely at the snapshot in that particular scene. The three of them are all smiling or laughing. It's literally a picture of happiness between them. I'm guessing now that when he burned the photo, it symbolized the fact that fate is catching up with them -- that the time of carefree happiness is over with.
Whether they'll come out on the other side unscathed is anybody's guess. But it looks like they're in for a harrowing journey no matter what the outcome. Definitely a bit of artistic foreshadowing on Nacedo's part there.
Adrian Posts: 310 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-11-2000 02:10 AM
I have a couple thoughts... (spoiler free)
In the beginning I was sceptical about Nasedo, thinking Max was right and that they ought to not try and make contact with him because they don't know if he is "good" or "bad." But after "Crazy" it seemed to me that Nasedo figured that allowing them to meet with Topolosky was risky because the FBI was too close on her tail. And so shape-shifted into that Dr. and contacted the Sheriff to help prevent them from having contact with the "alien hunter" division of the FBI. So I think that quite possibly Nasedo is protecting our alien trio and perhaps burned that picture to destroy evidence.
It also seems to me that Valenti sincerely believed this Dr.(really Nasedo) to be telling the truth about Topolsky. Valenti didn't seem to trust Topolsky when she appeared in his office, offering her a drink rather than a hug or comfort. But then when Valenti picked up the orb, I think then he may have questioned this Dr. and may be thinking that there is some truth to what Topolsky was saying.
After Topolsky was taken away I think that it is verified for us that what she is saying is true. That there is a man named Pierce who is after them, that the orbs are indeed communicators that need to be together to work (how exactly we don't know yet), and that she and our six plus the Sheriff are all on a list and are being watched.
I'm interested to know how much Valenti really does believe about Max and the gang and about what Topolsky told him.
Some new questions I have:
It seems that Max, Michael, and Isabel while alien, have many human qualities. They feel love and fear just like we do. I wonder about Nasedo though... If he is really protecting them (protecting being an act based on love) and yet in the acts of protecting them kills (murder being an act of hate/fear). How does Nasedo exist killing so many seemingly emotionless about it? Is Nasedo like the three or is he different? Are Max, Michael, Isabel part human part alien and that's why they seem so human? Is Nasedo is 100% alien or is Nasedo a technological being void of emotion?
And if Nasedo has been around even before 1959 are there other aliens? and that's how Topolsky knows about the orbs?
JanetMG Posts: 145 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-11-2000 04:47 AM
Frankly, I didn't think this episode did much exploration of the sci fi aspects. In my opinion, there was more suspense than sci fi, but here's a few thoughts & questions. (I haven't read the spoilers)
Since Topolsky asked to go with them right after saying that the orbs are communicators, I assume that when brought together they will send a signal out to "their people." If they can page their ride home, why do they need the map on the cave wall? Does it only signal "the others" Topolsky referred to that apparently are here and not signal any other planets?
Pearce--we already knew they had a special unit. Now we know that there's a big, bad alien hunter who is willing to kill within/running that unit. Not terribly exciting news--we weren't exactly led to believe that the FBI would just politely question MM&I if Topolsky had gotten proof. What makes Pearce worse? The fact that he's willing to hurt humans, too? [killed Stevens (a character played by an actor who probably isn't available anymore), tortured Topolsky, and put Liz, Alex, Maria & Valenti on the list]. For those who have read the books, do you think Pearce is going to be the character that Valenti was in them? As for amx's question about the FBI being an unwitting pawn, Topolsky's comment to Liz that who she works for is more complicated than just the FBI could support that idea. She may have been referring to Pearce & the special unit, but she may have been referring to more.
Nacedo--I still think he's much more evil than good and not looking out for the kids. I'm still leaning toward him being a member of some kind of rival faction of aliens. I too think Valenti believed the doc, but will reevaluate now that he's found the orb. Perhaps, Nacedo didn't want them to get the 2d orb & be able to communicate (or doesn't want any communication, yet). If he is indeed evil, he may have left the 1st orb in their possession because he knew it would attract the same kind attention that Topolsky received or he may be setting some kind of trap for "their people" & it was just too soon for MM&I to contact them. Of course, as pointed out by LSS, the best explanation may be that the doc shapeshifter wasn't Nacedo and was connected with the elite unit.
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 04-11-2000).]
LSS Posts: 565 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-11-2000 06:43 AM
Great points folks! To comment on a few of the above posts:
FAITH: As for your questions about shapeshifitng, we still have very little to go on--just two narrative instances, in fact. One of these involved a dead person that we know of (Hank) but we "know" nothing of the other three visages we've seen as to whether they are alive or dead. But I can say that I think we will find out more in the coming episodes. (I think that is vague enough to satisfy the censors--and not something that you could not have guessed!).
TABASCO CAT: I liked your idea of the orb being the proof they needed to pick up our trio. Though in terms of logic, one wonders why poor Max couldn't have just been kidnapped. Except, now that I think about it, there was another reason aside from the issue of evidence, wasn't there? FEAR. They were afraid of what Max might do. Kinda makes you wonder what they know about Max that Max doesn't.
But what I really liked was your symbolic interpretation of the burning of the photo. In real life I work with ancient texts thousands of years old--and we have a type of text that is used ritually in what might be called a symbolic action. I.e. an enemy's name is written on a pot, the pot is broken, the enemy's demise is symbolically evoked. And that is what I thought when I saw the photo burned. But I really like your idea of the termination of their relatively happy and care free life (care free that is, compared to what is now ahead of them when they are "known" and hunted).
ADRIAN: All I can say to you is that if you are spoiler free, that is one fantastically good creative imagination you have.
JANETMG: I agree, that aside from the info on the orbs, this episode concentrated more on setting up the background for these last six episodes than it did on new SF elements. But, to be fair, that was really necessary I suppose to facilitate the shift to the series' new emphasis. I suspect there are new elements coming soon. What did you think of the shift from romance to action? Wasn't it odd to see M/L and M/M "in place" as couples? But it did allow us to focus on the conspiracy plotline with more ease.
TO ALL SF POSTERS/LURKERS: On the "Soulmates: Fact or Fiction" thread amx posted a tremendous anthropological/mythic analysis of the concept of "soulmate" that I would recommend highly. Well done amx.
LSS
Pleiades Posts: 485 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-11-2000 07:59 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
[Thanks Max2000 for getting this started.
********************************************
With Crazy we get our first glimpse of "Roswell Revamped" and it is an interesting sight indeed. With two of our three human/alien couples in place, the writers are free to explore the SF aspects of the show with a healthy dose of adventure and action thrown in. At least three elements of the show stand out concerning its SF framework:
1. ON ALIENS AND ALIEN HUNTERS.
Topolsky, the FBI guidance counselor becomes the frantic potential friend who begs our aliens to take her to their people (and what people are these you might ask).
And who did you think Topolsky was referring to when she told Valenti that she had been the first to come in contact with the "subject"? Was she referring to Max?
And throughout these frantic scenes one is struck by how M/L and M/M are trying to led their "normal" teenage lives down to gifts of bubble bath (or in the case of Michael generic shampoo AND conditioner).
And is it possible that he is working with the FBI?
3. ORBS AND ALIEN COMMUNICATION. We now know that there are TWO orbs--the one found by M/L in SH and one secreted away by the FBI. Just how the FBI obtained that orb, of course, is as yet unknown.
After SH we speculated as to the orb's function. According to Topolsky, however, it is a communication device that only works when the two are together. The information that Topolsky gives us leaves more questions than it does answers. Do both orbs work in concert? That is, are both necessary for a single communication? Or are we talking about a transmitter and receiver?
AND HOW DID TOPOLSKY KNOW THAT THE ORB ONLY WORKED WITH ANOTHER ONE??? THAT MEANS THERE HAS TO BE AT LEAST ONE MORE OUT THERE, OR ELSE THEY WERE TOLD HOW IT WORKS BY AN ALIEN INFORMER.
And how was the orb in SH able to work by itself?
Well SF posters and lurkers WHAT DO YOU THINK???
LSS [/B]
LSS great insight...I like your thoughts...ok...here are some of my thoughts.
I too thought it was very interesting that Topolsky asked to be taken with the others when "their people come" I think the people would of couse be other aliens who would come to get our trio if they'd come at all...she doesn't seem afraid to go with the alien's should they ever be able to return to their planet...
I do think when she says subject she means Max...his name comes up alot in this show...I'm not sure they know about Isabell...although I think Topolsky knows Micheal is an alien...the way she spoke to him in his aprartment leaves no doubt...
I too loved how they were "normal teens"...in the books Isabell talks about alot just wanting to be a normal girl...meaning a normal human girl...
I think the orb the FBI has of course came from the original crash...and I think the orbs can be activated by themselves, but not enough to function properly i.e. transmit/receive to/from the "home" planet... but I think they can function enough for it to be determined that they are communicators...how did they know they needed both???...beats me? It could take more than two to really communicate...who really knows...? Or as you speculated maybe they were informed by another alien...you are right how would they know this info for sure??? And you are right how do you know if its a transmitter or receiver or both...??? Many questions???HHHHmmmmm...
Lets hear more thoughts....
[This message has been edited by Pleiades (edited 04-11-2000).]
Elliott Posts: 734 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-11-2000 08:28 AM
Tabasco_Cat: I have to join LSS in complimenting you on an excellent symbolic reason for the burning of the Max/Isabel/Michael photo. To extend that thought: it might be that it isn't just their happy and carefree days that are over, but their days as three tightly knit siblings that are coming to an end.
Since "Toy House" and especially lately, we are seeing stresses between these three. The fact that last night Isabel referred to both Max and Michael as her brothers was very moving to me, but possibly ominous given what went on in that episode: Michael acting rashly, getting the orb lost, Max striking him and then insulting him as well, Isabel sniping at Max for loving Liz, etc.
I enjoyed the alien 'clues' Topolsky dropped to Valenti. It's clear he never considered the fact that there might be more than one alien (Max) in Roswell. And I was just as tantalized as LSS when Topolsky suggested that this shadowy government agency was actually afraid of Max. Just how powerful is he? Can he take them all out just like Sissy Spacek at the end of "Carrie"? (Can he also take out WB executives if they don't renew ROSWELL? Just kidding.)
Not to get sidetracked, but a word about the 'orb.' In fact a word about the word 'orb.' Do we know when it started getting called that? I know I first described it as a titanium football. One of the posters on one of the 'science of . . .' threads said it isn't an orb because it isn't spherical. And yet it was clearly referred to as an orb on last night's show. Do we know if using the term 'orb' for that object originated on ROSWELL or on this board? Or was it in a spoiler (presumably from a script) that then got appropriated on the 'science of . . .' threads? Just wondered.
Anyway, Topolsky clearly said it was a communication device that had to be used in conjunction with another one. The shaft of light once the thing was exposed may have been a way for two separated aliens holding two signal orbs to find each other to meld the orbs. And then what?
max2000 Posts: 201 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-11-2000 09:14 AM
For those of us on the East coast, some of us want the chance to comment on the ep after we've seen it without waiting 3 hours for the rest of the country. I only started the thread in order to open the discussion.
[This message has been edited by max2000 (edited 04-11-2000).]
HollyLou Posts: 241 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-11-2000 09:24 AM
Posted by LSS
And WAIT -- WAS that our favorite alien shapeshifter from SH -- or was it another one? How does one recognize one shapeshifter from another? And is it possible that he is working with the FBI?
I think we can safely assume it's the same SS that killed Hank. I'm thinking the only purpose of the tic-tacs (and it is a square tic-tac box) is to clue us in as to who is who if the shape-shifting gets confusing. The SS in SH sure did look like the same guy that appeared at the end of ID! I think we're dealing with one shape-shifting Nasedo.
Topolsky let us know that when the orbs are in proximity they emit a signal to "their people" letting them know that they are finished with their business on Earth and are ready to return?? I think the special unit learned firsthand the function of the orb from another alien either working with them or from one they are holding. Remember in SH, Liz sees visions of soldiers tracking (presumably) an alien. They got one orb buried. Maybe they were caught with the other. Maybe a counterpart was caught with the other orb?
I don't think the FBI is so incapable of finding Max & Co that they would have to rely on a lowly field agent to lead them. They know exactly where Max is. They just aren't ready to do anything be it that they are afraid or clueless! They found Alex, right? I also think Nasedo was attempting to keep the gang away from the information that Topolsky was offering just like the FBI was. Topolsky's capture was just bad luck on her part.
LSS Posts: 565 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-11-2000 09:26 AM
Max2000
I think that the important thing is that we get a chance to discuss the SF aspects of the show -- not who initially starts a thread. I think that Kate was referring to the WAY I usually start a SF of [episode} thread which involves an analysis and a series of questions to start the discussion off. Some people might find that helpful to get the ball rolling, that's all.
Max2000--if you look at my post, I thanked you for starting the discussion. I tried but couldn't get access to the board.
Max2000--you mentioned the orb in your first post...do you have any responses to the posts above? What did you think of Nesedo's characterization?
LSS
max2000 Posts: 201 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-11-2000 09:37 AM
LSS: Yes I see your point and thank you for thanking me. I didn't mean to seem ungrateful. Per the orbs, after watching Crazy a second time I caught what Topolsky said about them being communicators. As for other things, I'm still new to the scifi threads so I don't presently have a thought on the subject. If I have a thought later on, I'll post it.
[This message has been edited by max2000 (edited 04-11-2000).]
HollyLou Posts: 241 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-11-2000 12:03 PM
I can't believe this thread was on Page 2!!
BUMP!!
LSS Posts: 565 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-11-2000 12:06 PM
HollyLou:
Nice pick-up from that chase scene in SH. We know that the figure had time to bury the orb--but we never see what happens to him. If he was caught, then that would put one alien in captivity. But for how long given his shapshifting powers? And what of those handprints? If we posit more aliens than simply one lone one working on his own, then it becomes more plausible, doesn't it?
What do you think?
LSS
Adrian Posts: 310 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-11-2000 05:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
ADRIAN: All I can say to you is that if you are spoiler free, that is one fantastically good creative imagination you have.
LSS, Was this meant as a compliment or sarcastic??? Which part were you referring to exactly?
If it was a compliment, Thank You. But actually I don't think it was really that creative or original though.
Valenti, Topolsky, FBI secret division: who trusts who?
At the end of Crazy I was really confused and my husband and I talked about it for awhile until I made the last couple scenes make sense to me. I did watch the first seven spoiler clips from vidiot's site the day before the episode aired. And when I watched the scene where Topolsky is warning Liz/Max and asking Valenti to get them to trust her, I felt she was telling the truth. But then while watching the actual episode I watched Valenti more in that scene where Topolsky shows up all red-eyed and frantic. I asked myself if she is really so honestly upset and frightened, why didn't he go hold her hand or give her a hug or do anything to comfort her. He seemed stand-offish and said he thought she needed a drink. I thought that was insensitive and cold considering her demeanor. Well then as Valenti spoke to Max and then later to Alex, I started to think maybe he doesn't trust her either.
Valenti & Nasedo I didn't think it was far off to think that perhaps Nasedo shape-shifted into the DR. to protect them like he did Hank to protect Michael. So I think that perhaps Nasedo is killing to protect them. Why Nasedo was killing before the trio "hatched" in 1983 (or whatever it was) I don't know.
Nasedo & M,M,I: 100% alien, or half/half I also don't think it's strange to speculate about the make up of Nasedo in comparison to the trio. M, M, I all have the ability to manipulate molecular structure but they don't seem to be able to or know how to shape shift. Nasedo as a shape shifter also apparently has the ability to alter molec. str. because he was able to make that symbol Michael & Isabel burnt in the grass appear and disappear.
M, M, I, despite their attempts to not need anyone, cling to each other desperately and also have sought relationships with humans.
And Nasedo seems to be a very quiet introverted loner - no relationships at all because he needs to be able to cut off all ties and shape shift into someone else. So I wondered if that's what these aliens were like on their own planet or is Nasedo a robot of some sort. I dunno.
And ever since the red giant was mentioned and the theories as to maybe they were sent here because their planet was going to disappear, I thought maybe they were geneticly engineered and that's why it took them so long to come out of the pods. I just combined the whole aliens abducting and probing humans with our Roswell story. Maybe they did this because they knew their time on their planet was limited and they needed to create a hybrid from earth and their planet to survive on earth.
(sanity disclaimer : This isn't what I think happens in 'real life,' but it's fun to think about it in our show. )
So it seems to me that Nasedo is different from them somehow. Then again maybe there's some alien puberty or mid-life crisis our three will go though to mature to become like Nasedo - shapeshifting, emotionless, and loners. Who knows? I can't wait to find out.
Valenti & "orb" It seemed to me that when the Sheriff was telling everyone that the Dr. had Topolsky in mental therapy or whatever that he believed his story. And thought that everything Topolsky said was all in her imagination, but then when he saw the orb began to question the Dr. and think there was some validity to Topolsky's story. I think Valenti would have wanted to believe the Dr. because of the way he thought about his father for so many years.
(Not really creative per se, I think I just analyze everything. )
About the orbs, I'm interested in finding out where the term came from too. You're right it's not a sphere, and in SH they just called it a 'thing.' Maybe it did come from the spoiler boards. Personally the term I liked best was "Space Potato!" Anyone know who coined that term???
And one thing about shape-shifting we can be certain about -- It causes bad breath. LOL Just kidding! Funny how we all recognize the tic-tac-like container! What is Nasedo popping anyway???
LSS Posts: 565 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-11-2000 07:19 PM
ADRIAN:
A COMPLIMENT....A COMPLIMENT...A COMPLIMENT!!
I am emphatically NOT spoiler free so that when I read your post I was impressed. Now...you need to read between the lines of the above comment. Exactly what I was impressed about, I'm afraid I can't say this side of the board. Hence my former reference to your imagination was a compliment. Gosh I can't be any clearer than that--but just remember what I said (and what you said) when the coming episodes air.
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-11-2000).]
Adrian Posts: 310 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-11-2000 08:23 PM
Cool LSS! And Thank You!
Since you can't say this side of the board, please email me. Don't give away too much, but let me know what part impressed you. Okay? I look forward to hearing from you! Again Thanks.
Leneba Posts: 175 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-11-2000 08:29 PM
I have some random thoughts that I will attempt to present in a coherent fashion.
LSS, I agree with Hollylou. The Tic-Tacs seem to serve the purpose of identifying Nasedo. Maybe he just really likes them. I wonder if they are cinnamon...sweet and spicy, you know! I suspect that at sometime in the future we will see someone pop a Tic-Tac and think "Aha!" It will confirm suspicions that that particular person is Nasedo. (Was that vague enough?)
Adrian, I see Valenti's offer of a drink to Topolsky as evocative of the John Wayne genre. I think it was in keeping with his character. He's not exactly a sensitive, warm and fuzzy guy. Look at how he referred to himself as "The Law". It's kind of an old-fashioned expression. I think this behavior/comment is supposed to reinforce the idea that he's a fair, by-the-book, stand up kind of guy. Nobody, not even the FBI is going to mess with the citizens of his town, by gum!
What is Nasedo's interest in the orb(s)? So far he seems remarkably uninterested in them. He had an opportunity to take the one from Max and Liz while they slept in the desert and yet he didn't. He could have shape-shifted into Topolski (assuming he didn't have to kill her first) and tricked them into giving it to him at the rendevous. He must have known they would bring it with them. I thought that when the sheriff picked the orb up, they would have shown Nasedo taking note of it. Nope. He also could have met Topolski and taken her orb, but that didn't happen either. Does he truly have no interest in the orbs? I find that hard to believe. Does he need Max and the others to somehow activate them? That seems likely. Maybe he isn't the one who originally buried the orb and physically can't touch it, like it would be painful or otherwise harmful to him.
Here's a question--do Nasedo's shape-shifting abilities extend to his clothing? As I recall, in I.D. his clothes changed (I'll have to go back and review it) along with his face. I noticed that in the close up shot in Crazy only his face changes. Suddenly, as he gets out of the car he's wearing a different outfit. Did he "shape-shift" his clothing? Maybe his clothes are a part of him, or maybe he can do really fancy things with the molecular manipulation.
But they're really one and the same, aren't they? Shape-shifting and molecular manipulation, I mean. We've seen our trio do it on non-living substances only, right? Oops, that's not right. I forgot all about the healing abilities.
I'm really curious to find out the origin/history/symbolism of the "orb". Where's ROStaFEHRian?!?
Lacrosse Dude Posts: 512 Registered: Sep 99 posted 04-11-2000 08:39 PM
I prefer space potato to orb...but that's just me. What is the point of a communicator that needs to be beside another...but I have been despoiled...I now know they are not communicators "gee, thanks".
Judging by the ending scene - the abduction of topolski...do you think she was under the influence of mind control.
think about it...the car pulls up beside her, the guy gets out of the back passenger door, gets around the car, and she is still there...why did she not run?
I think it is just a edditing gaff...but who knows. I just hope that they have lots more Julie Benz...I do like her...despite the freak wig.
tld movieboy
Adrian Posts: 310 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-11-2000 11:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Leneba:
Adrian, I see Valenti's offer of a drink to Topolsky as evocative of the John Wayne genre. I think it was in keeping with his character. He's not exactly a sensitive, warm and fuzzy guy. Look at how he referred to himself as "The Law". It's kind of an old-fashioned expression. I think this behavior/comment is supposed to reinforce the idea that he's a fair, by-the-book, stand up kind of guy. Nobody, not even the FBI is going to mess with the citizens of his town, by gum!
Good point! But I guess what I noticed was something in his tone of voice as well - distrusting. Sort of a let's sit down and talk about this, maybe you'll calm down and begin making some sense. I guess I expected more of a "you must have really been through something" type of response. This could just be the counselor in me because now that I think about it Liz kind of reacted to her in the same way. Valenti and Liz both had their guard up with Topolsky.
JanetMG Posts: 145 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-12-2000 03:42 AM
I'm still wondering how the orbs and the map might fit together and would love to hear any suggestions. I thought maybe you had to activate them from certain spots on the map so I rewatched Crazy & freeze-framed on the orb Topolsky had at the end. It definitely had a symbol on it, but I think it was the same one that was on the orb M&L found (hard to tell-any one have high def tv &/or a better tape?). Is the map something you need after the orbs do whatever they do? Does the map provide the way to contact a different group of aliens, i.e., Nacedo and anyone who may be associated with him?
Also, on a vaguely related point, could it be the elite group that has been doing the handprint killings? Didn't Nacedo first show up after the UFO sightings in Into the Woods? (Michael puts rocks in map in Balance. UFO sightings & symbol to(?) kids in Into the Woods. Nacedo first seen burning picture in Blind Date). Was he contacted via the map & did he come in whatever was seen in Into the Woods? If so, who's been doing the killings and why? Could someone other than Nacedo have tortured & killed Hank & he just did the cover up?
(Finally and OT--Does anyone else think of Bernadette Peters & Sondheim every time they type Into the Woods?)
BehrAll Posts: 81 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-12-2000 04:20 AM
About why there are multiple communicators: a firend and I are debating that using more than one of them, especially if you were planning to contact someone in space, might be important for directional purposes, maybe like triangulation (?).
I am, of course, assuming they work on a line-of-sight basis because of the way the light came out of the one M&L found(you know, sending a signal, like a radio wave, that only travels in a straight line, and so could be blocked if, say, Earth was in the wrong position -- like in the movie Independence Day, if anyone remembers that).
(JanetMG: maybe this could tie in the need for a map? Especially a constellation one, that "changes" in perspective from the Earth?)
Any thoughts, on whether this would or wouldn't make any sense? I welcome either!
Of course, I really like the security aspects of them having to be paired, although if it was truly a sourece of concern, I think aliens could find a better way of hiding their technologies, (like within the aliens themselves? they have shown the potential for telepathy, maybe it could be boosted somehow), and frankly, I'd think it was too much of a risk ... I mean, the FBI managed to get one pretty handily, didn't they? And to hold on to it.
[This message has been edited by BehrAll (edited 04-12-2000).]
Elliott Posts: 734 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-12-2000 06:35 AM
Tic-Tacs: I agree with the idea that this is a visual clue for the dimmer members of the audience so they will realize this is always Nadedo morphing into someone else. Perhaps they are setting us up for the time we will see an alien morphing that isn't accompanied by Tic-Tacs? Will this mean there's another shape-shifting alien in town?
Valenti & Topolsky: I think the reason he was so stand-offish is because he knows Topolsky was trying to hunt Max down when she was last in town, and he has become extremely protective of Max, and therefore wary of her. I've no doubt he noticed how crazed and agitated she was, but he would be practiced in dealing with drunk/deranged/difficult people since he's the town Sheriff, and his bland, reassuring gruffness is probably his standard Sheriff mode. His flirtation with her in an earlier episode struck me as all calculation anyway.
Nasedo/Dr. Margolin: Can we discuss this? Why exactly did Nasedo morph into this doctor, and more importantly, WHEN did he do it? How would he even know she was in the care of such a doctor? Since Sheriff Valenti tells us he checked on the doctor and that he was genuine, I assume it's true that Topolsky was being held in some kind of laboratory/hospital facility where she was a prisoner. This suggests that Nadedo has somehow been tracking Topolsky since she left town (or longer). He clearly wants to discredit Topolsky to the Sheriff and the Gang of Six, but why do that, especially if she is telling the truth? Is a puzzlement.
Nasedo's Shape Shift: In looking at "Crazy" again last night, I noticed there was a moment when Nasedo was between faces when we actually see the classic, stereotyped vision of what an alien looks like. It's very brief, but you definitely see blue, elongated eyes, slitty nose, all the usual 'alien' features we've been seeing in movies and TV since at least 'Close Encounters.' I had never noticed this before. Has anyone else?
JanetMG Posts: 145 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-12-2000 10:12 AM
Elliott--I don't know precisely when Nacedo shifted into the doctor, but we do know that he visited Valenti as the doc that morning. It seems to me that Valenti's ability to check up on the doctor could mean a number of things. Nacedo may have allies that intercepted the call or may have done so himself. Nacedo may know about it because he tracked Topolosky there or because he's had some personal experience (or heard of other's experiences) there in the past. Maybe the hospital (real or cover for Pierce's operation) confirmed that a doctor by that name worked there. We don't really know how detailed a check Valenti did. (In the case of Stevens, he just confirmed death--not manner of death, which would have been helpful.) I can't imagine that a psych hospital would go into any depth about one of its doctors (and/or his travel plans) on the phone. Further, any legitimate psychiatric hospital (and I would imagine any not so legitimate institution trying to effectively masquerade as one) would not reveal the identity of one of its patients or even confirm that a particular person was there or had been there absent a subpoena. The fact that the Doc told Valenti she was there is itself a rather suspicious breach of confidentiality. I know that the Doc and/or Valenti said something about not wanting anyone to get hurt out there, but I didn't see any real reason to think Topolsky would harm herself or others (which would justify the breach of confidentiality). Topolsky's obvious anxiety and fear for her & the kids' safety wouldn't be enough.
MEP
Junior Member
Posts: 24 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-12-2000 03:38 PM
I too have been wondering for a while about the fact that Nasedo seemed to know a LOT about what was happening with Topolsky. I think I know how the FBI knew about her meeting with Michael (there's something in the spoilers that I think explains it), but how did Nasedo know? Did he get the information from the real doctor (who had to be involved with the FBI)? But how would he know about the doctor and about where Topolsky had been (and where she'd be taken back to) in the first place? Shouldn't everything involving her and her "escape" have been top-secret FBI stuff?
Sheesh, it's hard to discuss this without referring to the spoilers!
Elliott: I went back to my tapes and I noticed that distorted alien face in the transitional moments too. Actually, you can see it at the end of ID as well, although not as clearly. Doesn't the traditional representation have black eyes, though? Here they were white. Thank you so much for pointing it out, that was really interesting.
behrlover Posts: 126 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-12-2000 03:57 PM
Since Nasedo shapeshifts constantly, we have never seen what he really looks like right? I thought that it was really him at the end of Indenpendance Day, but it could just be another form right? And why on earth would he change back into the homeless guy?!?
SarahD
Junior Member
Posts: 4 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-12-2000 04:17 PM
behrlover- I would say that we have seen what Nasedo looks like. (If you can actually say he has a definite look of his own) The rancher who finds Max and Liz in the dessert in Sexual Healing is the same guy/face that killed Michaels foster dad in Independance Day. If majority rules, and we have seen this face more than once, I say that's Nasedo's "real" face. My only question is, why change into someone other than himself after doing the doctor charade in Crazy? Any comments on what his motivation could be? (This, of course, assumes that there is only one shape-shifting alien)
thescoobygang Posts: 104 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-12-2000 07:43 PM
Hello everybody
The Crazy episode certainly was puzzling in many ways. If anyone has any insight into the following please do respond.
How did Topolsky know that the orb was in Michael's apartment and not with Max? Remember how a beam of light was emitted by the orb in SH? Maybe uncovering the orb somehow triggered a similar response in the one Topolsky had. If the 2 orbs were "transmitting/communicating" with each other than that would explain Topolsky's return to Roswell and to Michael's place. Perhaps most confusing about this episode was Nasedo's actions. I get the impression that Nasedo doesn't care about recovering either orb. He had a perfect opportunity to take the orb from a sleeping Max & Liz(SH), and he allowed Topolsky's orb to be recaptured by the FBI.
LSS: Interesting about the possibility that an alien informant might have tipped the FBI about the orb's function. I never thought of that. The presence of another alien would bring into question the "Is Nasedo a protector or enemy?" subject again.
Now I'm wondering if there was ever any significance to the orb being buried next to a military transmission tower of all places. An alien communicator next to a radio tower? Maybe it was buried there so that the transmissions from the tower would mask any signals emitted by the orb. And what exactly was it that destroyed the tower(allowing it to be abandoned) as seen in SH?
Just as a side note, I'm finding it very interesting just how much this alien plot resembles a Native American story. Three aliens embarking on a "vision quest" to find their people. A quest riddled with artifacts, symbols, magic(the alien kind), cryptic messages and ominous figures. So that would make Nasedo what in all this? A Spirit guide or a dark force? Maybe Tess, Lies & Videotape will provide some answers.
scooby
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-12-2000 10:20 PM
Something Ms. Topolsky said, or the way she said it, seems to fit a pattern we have seen before:
The Convention. Milton introduces Hubble to Max as someone rumored to have made "direct contact."
MAX: So, what did this alien look like?
HUBBLE: Looked like you, actually, (pause) or me.
Toy House. Diane Evans is in the kitchen with Max, who has biology homework, and Liz's name comes up.
DIANE: Oh, right. Liz Parker. Isn't she the one that came by the other day?
MAX: Yeah.
DIANE: So...what are you, (pause) just friends or...
Each time, the part just before the pause has a double meaning (whether or not the speaker knows it at the time).
So now I'm wondering what else to make of Topolsky's warning about that ruthless figure in the FBI special unit: "he's an alien (pause) hunter."
LSS Posts: 677 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-13-2000 04:25 AM
Nemo:
Well done!! I wondered it myself even as I heard it, but then I said...nah, I'm just reading into it.
BUT let's look at what it would mean if we weren't "reading into it". It might mean that an alien is currently working WITH the FBI to track others of its kind. And I don't think that we have to be talking about the "Agent Pierce" that was mentioned either. It would explain how Topolsky knew how the orbs functioned. And it would indicate that the alien community on earth may be far more extensive than M/Mi/I previously realized.
It would also raise the issue of whether or not this alien is using the FBI or the FBI is using it. (Depending upon how many "aliens" have been found and what has happened to them.)
As for how Top. knew the orb was at Michael's--maybe she didn't. Maybe she just found it while searching his apartment (remember the apt had been searched). Or maybe one orb can "sense" the other. If the writers never told us what the parents said after SH I doubt if they'll explain this "plothole".
LSS
Leneba Posts: 184 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-13-2000 09:04 AM
Ever since Elliott brought up the subjuct of the use of the word "orb", I have been mulling over the symbolic/mythical significance of the "space potato", as Adrian calls it. Let me preface this by saying that while I am not entirely spoiler-free, I don't have any spoiler knowledge of the orbs, so I may be way off base here.
According to my little college edition of the American Heritage Dictionary, an orb is "a sphere, esp. a celestial sphere...a heavenly body...one of a series of concentric transparent spheres thought by ancient and medieval astronomers to revolve about the earth and support the celestial bodies...an eye...". According to this, the objects which are referred to as orbs, by definition are not. In fact, they more closely resemble an ellipsoid, though the two ends are a little too pointy. Does someone out there know the exact name of this shape? I suppose you could call it an ovoid, which carries implications of fertility and reproduction--very much in keeping with the speculations on the SF of SH thread! However, I don't think that's entirely accurate either. The shape of the space potato makes me think of a seed or, well...a pod.
I don't entirely buy Topolski's explanation that they are communicators. I wonder if they are vessels for alien genetic material or repositories for alien knowledge/consciousness (a la Superman).
I think it is interesting that the term orb was chosen by the writers (if indeed it was referred as such in Crazy) despite being a misnomer. Especially in light of the celestial connotations, I don't think it was accidental.
Any thoughts?
Elliott Posts: 778 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-13-2000 09:21 AM
The idea that Pierce, and perhaps even Hubble are/were actually aliens is an intriguing one.
But what kind of alien? Did the spoilers not suggest that there were 'bad' aliens that are trying to enslave the Earth just as they tried to enslave the home planet of Max, Isabel and Michael? (And were they successful, or is the battle ongoing?) And is this the type of villainous alien we think Pierce is (or Hubble was?)
And what kind of alien is Nasedo? The same type and race as MIM? Or something less, say the equivalent of a worker drone in a bee colony? Or is he of the 'bad' alien race but perhaps somehow friendly and sympathetic to the 'good' alien cause? That is, if he is indeed good. Some of us still have trouble with that concept.
In that growing file of 'Scenes We'd Like To Have Seen On ROSWELL,' I'd have to add one in which Max, Isabel and/or Michael examined the space potato and tried to activate it with their powers of concentration. Certainly the three of them should have had some kind of conversation in which they wondered/speculated about what it could be.
I really think the space potato is the ROSWELL version of that Hitchcock standby The Maguffin. That is an object that means everything and nothing and that is necessary to set plots, action and conflict in motion. I think we will eventually see the space potato used in a way that won't entirely make sense logically and might even contradict earlier hints about what it could be. Simply because when it was introduced, its eventual use(s) had not been entirely decided on yet by the creative team. Just my theory.
Rebecca Posts: 260 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-13-2000 10:04 AM
I think it's entirely possible that Agent Pierce is one of the "bad" aliens. The senario of infiltrating the bastions of power on the planet and slowly working towards the enslavement of the current indiginous species is almost X-fileish. And if they are also shape shifters, what better mechanism for accomplishing that.
I have a question to pose, but it involves spoilers, so I'll pop over to the spoiler board now.
Lacrosse Dude Posts: 702 Registered: Sep 99 posted 04-13-2000 04:39 PM
just some alien mythology (?) background.
It has been said that the aliens that crashed at Corona (often mislabeled the Roswell crash) - referd to as greys - were under the control of yet another alien over-species...so they could be getting into that...that the FBI has one type of alien hunting the type of aliens that the pod squad are.
But, I do think that Nasedo would have been very smart to bury himself within the machine of the FBI.
tld movieboy
SF Posts: 76 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-13-2000 05:19 PM
I wanted to repost something that I posted on th SF of BB, because it ties in to the tic tac discussion. Rosta and amx were discussing the properties of capsaicin, a compound found in Tabasco Sauce (hot peppers)
quote:
Originally posted by amx on the SF of BB:
...I, like Rosta, have been thinking about the capsaicin angle. This compound not only has demonstrated pain suppression activity (as per Rostaıs post), but also indications of anticarcinogenesis and antimutagenesis, at least in animal trials. ... So, their dietary quirkı may confer more than taste advantages!
I'm keying into the antimutagenesis aspects of capsaicin [I understand this is not where you and Rosta were going], and think that there might be a plausible explanation here for the whole shapeshifting phenomenon, in sci fi land of course. What if the trio's dietary quirk is something common to the young of all their species. Maybe the high consumption of an antimutagen decreases the chance of a spontaneous shapeshift, and only when they are ready to learn the full process of shapeshifting do they wean themselves off the compound (this could be an instinctual drive, thus explaining the trio's minimal understanding of it). Nacedo, on the other hand, could be taking pills that have high mutagenic compounds, thus facilitating his shapeshifting.
In Crazy, IMO, Nasedo did not want the pod squad to make contact with Topolski for reasons other than the trio's protection. Topolski seemed sincere in the information she was trying to give them, she was trying to protect them. So why would Nasedo go to those lengths to prevent them from getting helpful information? Is her knowledge of the orbs' function vital for the trio's future, and something Nasedo doesn't want them to find out about? His continued disinterest in the orbs does seem to fit the idea that he's different to the trio, or has a different agenda to theirs...
Elliot, I picked up the "classic" alien face in ID, and I'll take a second look at the shift in Crazy. What I noticed was the grey beanie showing through at the end of the change. So I think we have confirmation that when the alien shapeshifts, he changes the molecular structure of his clothes as well. I wonder if his new "hiking/camping/rock climbing" outfit is significant? It seemed like an odd place to walk away from his car, it looked like an empty loading area next to a deserted factory.
P.S. amx I posted some comments on your parthenogenesis idea on the SF of BB thread too.
[This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-13-2000).]
amx Posts: 51 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-13-2000 06:57 PM
First, thank you LSS for your very kind words! And Adrian kudos to you!
In response to Lenebaıs question about the potential mythic origin for the orbs ROStaFEHRian doesnıt seem to be around at the moment, so I thought Iıd do my humble best to fill in. Actually, having read ROStaFEHRrianıs previous detailed analyses of various topics, I can only hope to be a pale reflection.
Orbs are most commonly associated with regalia (sacred and profane), and are symbols of authority and power. Think of the traditional orb and scepterı - the orb being a sphere with a cross surmounting it. In most contexts I am aware of they are symbols of earthly and, with an accompanying scepter spiritual, authority. The royal orbs represented the land or kingdom being subject to rule and often enclosed soil from it so that, when the monarch held the orb, they symbolically and actually held the land. The surmounting cross, which in Medieval Christian Europe was often said to contain a fragment of the True Cross, symbolized divine sanction of the monarchıs rule. At coronation, when the new monarch first held the orb of state, this symbolized the transferal of authority to them, effecting a change of stateı in the individual from potential to actual leadership.
So, in addition to the revealed communication function, could the orb[s] also be some sort of badge of officeı?
As posted by a few others already, the concept of orbs was also as important feature of early (archaic and medieval) cosmology until Tycho Brahe in the 17th Century. Most early philosophers/astronomers, ranging from Eudoxus, Aristotle and Claudius Ptolemy, through the early Christian writers (such as John Philonopus), to Islamic scholars (such as ibn al-Haytham and al-Bitruji) and writers of the later Middle Ages (including Dante and Chaucer) envisioned the cosmos as comprising a series of celestial spheresı. These were true spheres within which the planets and stars were fixed that moved past each other giving rise to the observed motion of the heavens.
However, one of the most intriguing early cosmological concepts, in terms of this discussion, was that of Hildegarde of Bingen (1098-1179). Apart from being one of the few women philosophers and writers on natural science in the middle ages, she had a very particular view on the nature of the cosmos that was entirely different from other writers. She conceived of the universe as an ovoid, rather than a sphere, with the Earth at its center. Her depiction is interesting in that at the center of her ovoid cosmos she represents the Earth by use of a swirling, almost circular symbol.
As thescoobygang also noted, objects of power are commonly associated with questingı myth cycles. They are most commonly weapons (swords particularly eg Excalibur) or containersı (cups, cauldrons and the like eg the Grail, the Cauldron of Celtic myth or the World Pot from Native American myth) that are imbued with special characteristics. One of the key tasks facing the hero, once in possession of the object, is to determine how to use and harness it to their purpose. Peril often lies in this task as the use of the object, before mastery is achieved, can result in dangerous consequences. It can be physically dangerous or alert the opponents to the quest that the hero has reached a critical point.
It is also often the case that seemingly separate objects, each with their own form and function, might be combined to create an object of even greater power. Thus, multiple orbs, one ultimate device?
On a sidetrack, I typed in orbı into a search engine just to see what would come up and www.orbsite.com did. It opens with ³We are not alone². They even refer to football orbsı as communication devices. So, have the writers been trolling the fertile seas of the net for ideas?
On the picture burning I also thought in terms of cursesı but more along the lines of the ancient Greek/Roman method whereby the curse was written (each word backwards!) on a lead sheets (katadesmoi/defixiones) then rolled up and burnt or deposited. Some interesting examples could more properly be called love magicı as they were designed to callı a lover to the author of the charm. Since I donıt feel that Nasedo/Nacero is necessarily evil (more an ambivalent figure), perhaps his actions were a form of callingı?
Elliot I agree that the orb may be a plot device. However, given the fictional context of superhumanı powers and advanced technology, perhaps its/their final purpose wonıt be irreconcilable with what has been revealed to date.
SF sorry I havenıt been back to those threads for a long while so I wasnıt deliberately ignoring your replies. Your point on capsaicin is very interesting. From what Iıve read, capsaicin is cleared very quickly from the system, thus such a shift in metabolism/ability could be accomplished rapidly. So, are sudden outbreaks of shape-shifting in the trio ahead?
amx
JKBosco Posts: 521 Registered: Jan 99 posted 04-13-2000 07:43 PM
This thread always fascinates me. As soon as I finish the Dreamy Reunion thread, I always come here! I just wish I had mroe to offer.
Well, this time, I have a question.
What did that guy mean when he told Topolsky she had lead him right to them? With the communicator? In another way? And what did she mean by "They had nothing to do with it?" I'm so confused.
This whole episode left me quite confused actually, so confused in fact that I can't even put all my questions into words! But maybe if I understood the last scene, I'd feel a little better, huh?
Emily
Leneba Posts: 184 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-14-2000 05:41 PM
Thanks amx, and *BUMP!*
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-14-2000 08:30 PM
In view of Adrian's conjecture about Nasedo/SS, I'm wondering if he or it is like that robot Gort in "The Day the Earth Stood Still," whose job is to be a sort of guard/caretaker, and whether the orb is a way of sending him instructions. Like the TV remote control. No wonder he doesn't take the orbs himself, that would defeat their purpose. And if it takes two orbs to make a substantive change in his assigned priorities, maybe that's a security precaution, as suggested earlier.
And if he changed back into the figure of a homeless person, maybe that's his cover, or one of them, while on guard duty over our friends on the streets of Roswell. I think I misjudged him about the burning of the picture. (If that was SS. Lots of if's.) At first I wondered whether the burning signified malevolence. Now I suspect it was mere disposal of something he no longer needed after finding Michael's message. (Again, someone else suggested this, I can't remember who.) People save photographs for practical and sentimental reasons; maybe this scene is supposed to show us that SS is not sentimental, only practical. I'm also impressed with the suggestion that the symbolism of the burning picture is that it marks the end of a (relatively) carefree time for our friends.
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-14-2000 08:48 PM
If the orbs are communicators (I'm not sure we should rely completely on Ms. Topolsky's word; not that I doubt her present sincerity, but she could be misinformed), who gets the message and where? Wouldn't a recipient at an astronomical distance have a long wait for the signal to arrive? So I am inclined to think the recipients are on Earth or nearby. (Unless the aliens have faster-than-light signaling, as they seem to have FTL travel.) As for whether a clear line-of-sight would be needed: some signaling methods do, some don't.
amx Posts: 51 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-14-2000 09:10 PM
Nemo,
My recollection is fuzzy as I don't have a physics background (perhaps someone who does can contribute further) but I seem to recall that under certain circumstances molecules separated by considerable distances can be caused to resonate at the same frequency at the same instant in time. This is because all molecules at any one instant have the potential to resonate at the same frequency as all others. All you have to do is get the probability correct. I think this was the basis for some of the recent experiments on 'time travel' that have been published (in Germany I think). The experiments involved a Mozart symphony being recorded at one end of a laboratory prior to it being played at the other.
So, if the orb can effect the necessary probability 'shift', instantaneous communication across stellar distances may be possible.
amx
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-14-2000 09:50 PM
OK, amx, I am content to suspend disbelief about FTL communications on the grounds you suggest. I just don't know yet whether the writers are using this device. As for the experiment you described, I haven't heard of that specific one yet, but I have seen a few studies of that general flavor recently. (I used to work in atomic physics, but now in optical radar; haven't kept up with quantum communications.) That sort of thing used to bug Einstein: "spukhafte Fernwirkungen" -- spooky actions-at-a-distance, he called them, but his hopes of banishing them from quantum mechanics have been refuted by experiments.
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-17-2000).]
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-14-2000 10:44 PM
Is there some indication that Hubble might be an alien? His 1947 birthdate is all that I can recall, and there seems to be a perfectly good alternative explanation for that: it's the year the term "flying saucer" was coined, acc. to LSS. Hubble as alien would seem to conflict needlessly with so much of what he said; is there anything it would explain better? As far as I can see, he was as human as Captain Ahab. (And lost much of his humanity, and then his life, in the same way.) I think he was just honestly mistaken. (But dangerously. If you're going to be "a doer, not a talker" you need to check your facts more.)
There was a thread on Hubble, due to taovande, that some of you may not have seen. Here are some notes mostly from there.
Notes on the astromomer Edwin P. Hubble: He established that other galaxies are far outside our own, not just clusters of stars within our galaxy. He recognized the local group of galaxies of which our Milky Way and the Andromeda Galaxy are part. In 1929 he showed that galaxies are moving away from us with a speed proportional to their distance, leading to the realization that the universe is expanding. That proportionality constant, and now the Space Telescope, are named after him.
Notes on the Hubble Space Telescope: the main mirror was shaped with the most exacting care -- to the wrong curve! Because of an egregious blunder in setting up a test fixture that misguided the work. One critical spacing was set wrong because the distance meter (an optical radar) picked up a stray return from the frame of a small mirror instead of from the mirror itself (the frame's black coating being chipped in one fateful spot). So one could say that this error, like the old alien hunter's, was a case of mistaken visual identity. Work continued for years relying on this one wrong setup. Only after the telescope was in orbit was the fault discovered. Then much ingenuity was spent to compensate: at first by computer processing the blurred images, finally by corrective optics installed by astronauts. Solving the problem took many steps, each of them making news that reminded the public of the original error, until the name Hubble seemed almost synonymous with "mistake." I suppose this is why the writers gave that name to the sad old alien hunter who went so far without checking his facts.
[Consumer notice: this post contains at least 50% recycled material]
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-14-2000).]
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-14-2000 10:54 PM
Incidentally, Edwin Hubble's birthday was 20 Nov. (1889). Everett Hubble's (note the same initials) was 17 Nov., wasn't it? Just a little off. And the photograph of the first "handprint victim" we saw was 16 Nov (1959). Don't know whats up with that.
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-14-2000 11:48 PM
On the old SF of SH thread, ROSta and others, I think, discussed the possibility of Max being some kind of Deliverer or Chosen One. The current episode reminded me of that. Alien Madonna and Child. Rose. Crosses, and the name Pierce. Also Stevens, the first "martyr" (perhaps not stoned to death, but something was done to him "piece by piece"). Max and his circle (about half the canonical number), choosing the lakeshore as a meeting place.
[And those oval lakes! Weren't there several of them, with an X-shaped land formation (another cross) between? Where have we seen that before!]
Agent Pierce, or whoever is behind him, in hunting Max and anyone connected with him, uncaring whether they are innocent, seems like King Herod, fearing and watching for the long-foretold advent of someone he perceives as a threat to his power.
In the final scene, Pierce or whoever is in the car tries to cast Topolsky in the role of Judas: "you led us right to them." She tries to protect them and absolve herself, sounding a little like Pilate's wife "they had nothing to do with it." (Thanks to the people who started the threads on that remark and set me thinking about this.)
There is much to ponder in this chapter of the story according to St. John.
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-23-2000).]
LimeWarp Posts: 110 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-15-2000 09:21 AM
*bump*
SF Posts: 76 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-15-2000 01:48 PM
amx, no problem, I just wanted to let you know that someone had responded, and Iıll try to get back to you on that thread this weekend. You asked, "So, are sudden outbreaks of shape-shifting in the trio ahead?" From what we know so far about their ability to change the molecular structure of things, Iıd say the potential is there. Adrian also commented on this ability but that "they don't seem to be able to or know how to shape shift." If the whole capsaicin thing holds water then theyıre currently inhibited from changing themselves, and can only use their powers externally. From what the book readers have posted, itıs a learned behaviour, so it might be valid on the show that they donıt yet know how to. However, if the SS is truly a stereotypical "grey," as indicated by Elliot, and corroborated by MEP, then heıs just changing his external appearance; hiding in plane sight in human form. Does this mean that we now have confirmation that heıs a different type of alien to the trio? I donıt know. The tic tacs instead of being some mutagenic or nutritional supplement, might just be good old tic tacs. If we anthropomorphize, he/she/it (even though weıve only seen males so far, it makes sense that he can shapeshift into anything) could just be eating tic tacs to get some good old glucose to replace the energy he expended in the shape shift.
JKBosco good catch on Topolskiıs line "They had nothing to do with it?" I'm confused too, but Iım guessing sheıs referring to some kind of alien human interaction that occurred after the crash, where something bad happened to the humans. Itıs certainly appears to be turning into an FBI witch hunt, way more appears to be at stake than the opportunity for some lab coated government scientists to examine Max. Just as Hubbleıs obsession was more than just being a UFO nut. To go totally conspiracy theory on Roswell, suppose the FBI had profiled Hubble as an obsessive personality, and they had their "pet" FBI alien kill his wife, and get the ball rolling. Itıs a lot easier for rogue UFO nuts to infiltrate communities and be in the right place at the right time, and all the FBI has to do is keep tabs on them. Hubble might even have been in their employ, how else was he making money.
Nemo, I didnıt notice all the symbols you mentioned, but I did pick up the cross in the distance behind Valentiıs vehicle. I assumed it was for a mission/homeless shelter on the poorer side of town, possibly as an indicator that Alex wasnıt walking in the best part of town, but it may have some additional significance. Whatıs your take on the 3 nuns present at the crashdown diner near the start of the show, and then the background voice in the UFO museum saying something along the lines of "2 nuns at St. Elizabethıs saw an explosion..." You hear this while Max is handing out alien masks, and Valenti walks up behind him. Maybe the masks were just a reiteration of the theme that no-one is who/what they seem, and maybe the nuns really arenıt. They could be good guys, bad guys, aliens, FBI, or an indication of sanctuary. We seemed to see them too clearly, for too long, for them not to be important to the story. Why would ward robe put extras in Nunıs clothes in the crashdown scene if there wasnıt a story reason for them to be there? Iıd be interested in any additional comments on this.
On the whole orb thing, maybe weıre misinterpreting communicator, although I think weıre interpreting Topolskiıs take on it correctly. She thinks itıs a messaging device that will call the trioıs people to rescue them, but what if itıs a communicator in the sense that it communicates information. What if when the two orbs get together something happens and they tell the story of the trioıs past, or impart some really important information to the trio. Maybe the beams of light the orbs emit are different (polarity, frequency,?), but when the light paths intersect the "message/communication" becomes visible. Iım thinking along the ideas of a hologram, but it could be anything.
Adrian, I agree with you 100% that Valenti doubts the Doctorıs story as soon as he picks up the orb, also a lot of the questions you asked in your 04-11-2000 02:10 AM post about the trioıs human qualities and Nasedoıs actions have been discussed fairly extensively on the SF of SH thread, and a little on the other 2 SF threads. You should take a look there are some pretty interesting ideas.
Tabasco_Cat I really liked your take on the burning of the photo. Itıs the only image weıve seen where all three of them look happy, and the destruction caused by burning has such finality - it really is a great omen of doom. I wish thereıd been a scene where Isabel and Michael went back to the library and saw that the burned symbol that Isabel had repaired was back on the grass. Then when she repaired it agian, i.e., returned the burned grass to it's precombustion state, theoretically the photo should have returned to its precombustion state too, and they'd have at least known that some one was watching them. That still makes the responder to their message a creepy alien, but maybe not an evil one?
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-16-2000 10:12 PM
SF, I watched again for the nuns, but while searching I chanced upon a few minutes of Independence Day and was surprised to see that same alien/infant figurine. Even if I had noticed it before, I might not have thought of the Madonna/Child interpretation, especially amid all the routine alien stuff in the cafe. So maybe one reason for putting nuns in the picture was to trigger recognition of that figurine as a special one. (It stands just inside and to the left of the cafe door, as seen from inside. Although the infant's head was oriented differently in the two episodes, it looked the same otherwise. I wonder how long it has been there.) This experience reminded me that, if something is to be "hidden in plain sight," context is everything.
I think the significance of the background voice in the UFO museum is that it mentions St. Mary's; that name again evokes the images above. The rest of the background message, that two nuns there witnessed some explosion, serves to connect the message with the museum, the explosion presumably relating to some UFO event the museum is telling about. If there is a further significance to those details, I don't see it yet.
But I suspect a further significance to the nuns in the cafe. Three were easy to see, but wasn't there a fleeting glimpse of a fourth (on the left)? Ever since someone interpreted the X-shaped symbol on Max's drawing/map as a cluster of four pods, I have suspected a fourth alien of M/M/I's age. That fourth nun we only began to see may be a hint that we are also beginning to see that fourth young alien. (Since nuns' dress is unrevealing though easy to recognize, maybe the nuns symbolize "hiding in plain sight" as our alien friends have been doing.)
And, as there have been nuns all around the world for a long time, maybe so also with aliens. Maybe lots of them have been living all around, peacefully making their contribution. But maybe one of them has gone power-mad and is bent on world domination. Maybe Max (without knowing it yet) represents the best hope the others have of preventing or overthrowing this evil domination. And like King Herod, the evil one may have heard prophecies of the deliverer (is healing one of the marks of this deliverer?), and may be using the FBI to watch for his advent, in hope of suppressing him, but in fear that his power may be the greater. Why else would the mysterious FBI "inner ring" be so focused on Max? [Remember, in the pilot, when the sheriff called Stevens, it was according to some prior arrangement: "Listen, you guys told me to call you if I saw anything." And River Dog, in the cave, said that the arrival of the children was foretold. Come to think of it, (or was this discussed in December?) the cave (no room in the inn) and the star formation overhead may have been Advent symbolism. All this makes me think that much more will be at stake than just what happens to six teenagers and the sheriff.
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-17-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-17-2000).]
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-16-2000 10:57 PM
The black/white contrast of the nuns' clothes reminds me of something: growing indications that there may be a "dark side" to the aliens' nature that they will have to contend with. (I think this was discussed some time ago.) Small remarks made in jest or vexation or silliness are making me wonder, because so many are piling up:
Isabel to Alex: "To wipe out the world, one annoying teenager at a time."
Michael, concerned over Maria, "that just who I am is going to hurt her."
Xenoplox "from the planet Zetagon" who says he's here "to eliminate humanity."
By the way, doesn't the name Xenoplox mean something? Alien plot? Help me out; any Greek scholars out there?
Max to Liz: "I have orders from my planet to take over the Earth."
Max in that grotesque alien suit at the start of the UFO convention: Though we can't see his face, his fixed stare when Liz appears in the distance, and the heavy breathing that ensues, tells us it must be Max in there (and the poor boy is suffering). Funny, in a sad sort of way. But isn't that sound reminiscent of Darth Vader? And remember, he too was once innocent.
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-23-2000).]
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-17-2000 11:54 PM
In some of the council meetings overlooking the lakes, our six friends were all wearing dark colors, maybe all black. Could that have been intended partly to draw a parallel to the black the nuns were wearing or vice versa?
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-20-2000 07:59 AM
I have a question about the restaurant scene where Ms. Topolsky met Liz. Early in the scene, there was a large, brightly-lighted aquarium with lots of fish. I imagine this refers to "living in a fishbowl," being wide open to surveillance. But as T. is leaving and the camera follows her toward the exit, she disappears behind some object that I didn't get a good look at. It seemed like a bowl with one red thing in it, motionless. I took it to be a rose, but I'm very unsure of that. Could someone get a closer look? What does it mean? It seemed too prominent to be without significance.
Nemo Posts: 217 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-23-2000 10:08 PM
When Max was at work, handing out alien masks, and the sheriff came by to talk, Max had two masks in his hands, and the camera fixed on them for a moment. I wonder whether the number was significant. A hint that there are two shape-shifters (so far)? Or two kinds of aliens?
LSS Posts: 677 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-24-2000 05:09 AM
Nemo--
Fascinating. I was watching Crazy again last night and once again noticed the nuns -- and yes you are right about the reference in the UFO Museum. I'm going to print out your last few posts and rewatch it again tonight. Be attentive to this thread because I'll get back and post here within the next 24 hrs. with a response to each of your points--but I have to watch it again before I can be attentive to this kind of detail. Once more--WELL DONE!!!!
LSS
LSS Posts: 677 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 06:10 AM
bump
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