Fan Forum - Roswell - The Science Fiction of Crazy
This thread was 6 pages long.
08-21-2000 04:41 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
With Crazy we got our first glimpse of "Roswell
Revamped" and it was an interesting sight indeed. When Crazy aired
(after several reruns following SH) two of our three human/alien
couples were firmly in place (M/L, M/M) and the writers felt free to
explore the SF aspects of the show (with a healthy dose of adventure
and action thrown in for good measure).
What follows are parts of the questions for the original "SF of
Crazy" along with some Post-Destiny POV comments and questions.
1. ON ALIENS AND ALIEN HUNTERS. Conspiracies within
conspiracies--this episode introduces us to Pierce the ruthless
alien hunter, who answers to no one and appears more inhuman than
our aliens.
POST-DESTINY POV: Of course Pierce dies in Destiny at the hands of
Michael. But his death is anything but settled on these boards.
Rumors and theories abound as to just who Pierce was and what role
he will play in the future story line. Who do you think he was--just
an FBI agent or something more? NOTE: for those of you who are
spoiled...be careful that you don't enter into forbidden territory
here...do the "spoiler shuffle" and "dance" around your knowledge.
*****************************************
2. SHAPESHIFTING ALIENS AND THE FBI. Our favorite shapeshifter
appears again in this episode along with his little box of pills/tic
tacs ???? And did anyone else find it slightly suspicious that his
intervention allowed Topolsky to be captured by that elite alien
hunting unit? (Along with the second orb?)
And WAIT -- WAS that our favorite alien
shapeshifter from SH -- or was it another one? How does one
recognize one shapeshifter from another? And is it possible that he
is working WITH the FBI?
POST-DESTINY POV: For the most part, posters have avidly debated the
ONE vs TWO shapeshifter theory (otherwise known as the Tic-Tac
theory--gosh...too bad someone didn't hit that company up as a
sponsor for the LA party, eh?) But with that last scene in Destiny,
our field for specualation is expanded beyond our dreams! Now that
we have a number of bad and possibly good aliens living on earth it
seems a little parochial to limit our theories to just one or two
separate shapeshifters doesn't it?
********************************************
3. ORBS AND ALIEN COMMUNICATION. We now know that there are TWO
orbs--the one found by M/L in SH and one secreted away by the FBI.
Just how the FBI obtained that orb, of course, is as yet unknown.
After SH we speculated as to the orb's function. According to
Topolsky, however, it is a communication device that only works when
the two are together. The information that Topolsky gives us leaves
more questions than it does answers. Do both orbs work in concert?
That is, are both necessary for a single communication? Or are we
talking about a transmitter and receiver?
AND HOW DID TOPOLSKY KNOW THAT THE ORB ONLY WORKED WITH ANOTHER
ONE??? THAT MEANS THERE HAS TO BE AT LEAST ONE MORE OUT THERE, OR
ELSE THEY WERE TOLD HOW IT WORKS BY AN ALIEN INFORMER.
POST-DESTINY POV: In MTTM we found out about the alien tortured by
the special unit. Presumably this is how Topolsky & co. learned
about the orbs' function. And we also find out that they recovered
the one orb from the crash (and would have gotten the other one too
if XXX [fill in the identity of the unknown hole digger] hadn't
hidden the orb from the soldiers; SH). The actual working of the
orbs in Destiny also cleared up some questions raised in Crazy while
creating some new ones!
As for the orbs' function, thus far we only have confirmation of
their limited use as hi-tech recorders. Surely they have more
functional depth than that? Michael keeps hoping that they will
function like Topolsky implied--as communication devices--that is,
with the ability for long range contact (not merely recording prior
messages). That last scene in Destiny implies a long range
communication of some type being carried out. (Else why would a mere
recording set off so many far ranging instruments?)
Kind of strange, however, that such usage could not be shielded.
Surely a species capable of interstellar flight is also capable of
safeguarding communication? Odd. Or maybe it can be shielded but
Harding simply doesn't know how? And if so, WHY doesn't he know how?
Harding's lack of general knowledge of the orbs' working is a huge
credibility gap unless it turns out that these devices are limited
to a particular class (nobility), or that Harding is lying and just
doesn't want to tell them, or that Harding is a bad alien not
familiar with good alien technology (but this is weak logically...I
mean, good infiltrators are "up" on enemy technology aren't they?
Especially on simple communication devices!
Moreoever, ever ask yourself why the FBI wasn't able to gather more
info about the orb than merely its function? Like HOW is worked?
Pierce later will be mystified...and even the Hardings (both Tess
and Ed) seem to know nothing about the mechanics of its working.
Again--plothole a mile wide? Or a significant clue?
Well SF posters and lurkers WHAT DO YOU THINK???
LSS
P.S. And of course, we are introduced to Tess in this eppy. Notice
anything significant (SF wise) about her actions here? Watch Max as
he encounters her in his house.
[Edited by LSS on 08-21-2000 at 04:44 PM]
08-21-2000 05:17 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Good Grief: Everyone watch out. LSS, you cannot leave
such dangling teasers as ORBS in front of me. I spent the last week
talking about switched orbs. And it think I'm going to have to
again.
Okay. Last week we saw SH. In this episode, there is scene of Max
and Liz sleeping out in the desert. A long, dark, mysterious shadow
falls upon them. Cut to Nancy Parker looking for Liz in her room.
Cut back to Liz and Max waking up in the desert. They are about to
kiss when Max notices someone is there. It appears as if the orb
could have been moved. It's hard to tell because the two scenes are
shot at different camera angles. I got to thinking, was the Orb
switched? GraceKel had thought this too apparently back on the first
SciFi to SH thread.
From a Desting POV, there are many, many reasons to believe that the
orbs were in fact switched. Believing so would answer most of your
other questions LSS and some questions that you don't ask!
With this in mind. Let's try to see how we can answer some of these
SciFi questions.
ALIEN HUNTERS:
In Crazy Ed Harding comes along and later we accept him as Nasedo.
But there are a lot of fundamental differences between this Nasedo
and the Nasedo from ITW,BD,ID,SH. One difference is, TicTac seems to
be lurk in the shadows, waiting around for something. I hypothesized
that he wants the orb for either was it can do, to throw the pod
squad off on the wrong trail, or for other reasons (not necessarly
evil ones). After the shadow appears on Max and Liz and they wake up
to see the rancher (TICTAC) grinning like a maniac about something.
Well, what could it be? Maybe the fact that he got the orb, he
switched it for a different orb or sabotaged it. After that point,
we never see any resemblance to of TicTac in our story again. I'm
going to leave it up to the other posters to explain how they are
different. But it's a widely held belief that TicTac and NasEDo are
two different shapeshifters, at least among the boards.
In Crazy Tolopski does say, "I know for a fact that it's a
communicator and they work in pairs." --something like that. Well,
the only way she could know for a fact that it's a communicator is
if she's seen them in action. Frankly, I don't think she knows what
she's talking about. The ORB was working fine. It called out to Max
and Liz to be discovered. It made noise, it gave off a bright light.
As soon as if was dug out, it stopped. It seemed to go into a
standby mode. Although it was cut from the script, the reason why
Max and Liz stayed out in the desert, is because they thought it
would go off again, and wanted to stay secluded until they thought
it was safe.
So, Topolski thought that they worked as pairs for a fact on either
two sub-theories.
a) Highly reliable source, maybe Nasedo posing as FBI informate--
(he's intimately familiar with Eagle Rock Military base). Or maybe
he's trying to get Topolski to deliver the FBI's orb to the pod
squad without getting involved with them. (That's someone else's
idea).
b) She's seen the two orbs in action.
If A) then what else has she been told about the origin of the orbs?
Remember, she begged Michael to take her with them. She obviously
has heard something to believe that she could "survive" on Planet
Twilo! (Comment on that line please!)
If B) It proves the existance of at least three orbs. The one the
FBI has, "the other", and the one Max & Liz found.
What is the orb's function? I think that's still left up in the air.
If the orb was switched, and Topolski was a plant, then maybe the
Mommy message was from the enemy. The evil aliens switched the real
orb- took it- gave and replace it with an orb that would serve there
own purpose. Then Topolski makes a quick reappearance with another
orb. Possibly another seed from the evil within. Remember how
focused Pierce was in WR! He was more interested in orbs than Max.
He was going to kill Max over it. And also, note he didn't know how
they worked. He's never seen them work, or else, how could Tess fool
him? So, the evil aliens plant two orbs, that are long range
communicators to give out a homing single. At the same time, they
create somesort of Mommy message that will force the podsters to
leave the orbs working for just long enough to trace them. The
message itself is unimportant! It's just got to be enough to feed
there hunger.
So-- how's that for possibly my longest post ever?
Now, go click an ad!
From Nebraska!
Qfanny
Remember is not an
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-21-2000 at 07:56 PM]
08-21-2000 06:08 PM IP: Logged
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
LSS and others : Although this episode raised more
questions than it answered, it did show that this is not a "straight
forward" conspiracy, but a very complicated one.
1. Tic-tac, presumably the same shapeshifter responsible for the
Hankocide, appeared as Topolsky's shrink from Maryland. Dr. Margolin
tells the sheriff that he has never been to Roswell, so Tic-tac must
have gone to him, because he knows:
a. Topolsky's psyc history - enough to sound convincing.
b. The doctor's voice, looks, etc.
Tic-tac knows that Topolsky is there, has asked Michael to meet her
at a particular time and place to show him the other orb, and that
Pierce is in Roswell. What is very peculiar is that T-t tells the
group Topolsky has been picked up and is her way to MD, before we
actually she her being captured. T-t was confident she was going to
be picked up, or he would not have told the kids and the sheriff
this - if she had turned up again later, it would have discredited
him. (He did not know Valenti would find out about her murder, or
even that she would be murdered.) Whose side is he on?
2. Topolsky tells Liz she has found out things nobody would believe,
and that it is more complicated than the FBI. She tells Valenti that
the situation is much worse than just the FBI investigating the
kids, and that she did not know about the special unit until she
returned to Washington.
3. Pierce is in charge of the special unit and doesn't answer to
anybody; he killed Agent Stevens rather than let him out of the
unit. This is pretty extreme, and makes me think ther is alot more
to it. I have thought since M2tM there are evil aliens (FBI agent
turning to look at sky symbol creeped me out), and I have been
convinced since WR and Destiny that Pierce is one too. (I don't know
any spoilers, or if there are any about Pierce).
4. There are two orbs that the "FBI" know about and they say they
are "communicators" which only work together. They know this without
ever having put the two of them together (because the one was
burried right after the crash, and Pierce said they had been looking
for the other one for over 50 years). Odd they know there are two,
and what they do, but they don't know how to work them. Who told
them, and why weren't they told everything?
08-21-2000 06:48 PM
Star2000monkey
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Thanks for starting the new thread, LSS.
Qfanny -- I am becoming more of a believer in the possibility of
switched orbs, particularly in light of LSS' comment about the
notification to the bad aliens. Why not mask that communication, as
she pointed out?
question2: It seemed that the SS stopped them from going up there
precisely because he knew the FBI had set the trap. Speaking of the
trap, since post Destiny, we know they were already spying on the
podsters, then the FBI (if it was them) had to know the orb was in
Michael's apartment. Why not just take it? That makes you wonder
about the spying being by done the SS -- he would have heard
Topolsky setting up the meet the next night so he would know where
to go to intercept the podsters, and he wouldn't have wanted to take
the orb, as the FBI would.
As to question 3 about the orbs. Perhaps I assumed too much but I
thought that their info was supposed to be from the alien they had
in the WR for 3 years (who later was killed or became an informant?)
Either way, if the info came from the alien from the ship, that
alien's info is probably wrong. Evidently that alien did not tell
them about the four podsters, so kept at least some info from them.
So who knows if the orbs really only work in twos - that might have
been misinformation. I tend to believe that the orbs require the
alien energy to work, one alien may be all that is necessary for it
to work (Max & the buried orb).
Also, one more point. Didn't it seem awfully convenient that in 4S
that Tess broke up A/I conversation, and when Alex leaves the
Crashdown, Pierce is waiting for him? Makes you suspicious of
Harding and Tess, and wonder about that other SS.
08-21-2000 06:57 PM
Dareka
Dedicated Fan Registered: Aug 2000
To answer your question in the post above on question #4,
I believe that one of the aliens they held in the white room told
them that there were two orbs. I mean, the alien was in there for
three years being tested on, as pointed out in The White Room.
Killing off Agent Stevens to me also seemed extreme. I mean, what
exactly did he do that made Pierce kill him? Maybe he learned
something that he shouldn't have about Pierce. Well, I guess season
2 will tell the rest....
08-21-2000 07:16 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Hi QFanny!
I didn't get to reply to your post on the last thread as I took a 2
day road trip with my teens and when I got back the boards were
acting up. I DID post a reply to you, but all that showed was the
quote! Look for my reply to your most recent post in CAPS:
quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny
Okay....I got to thinking, was the Orb switched? GraceKel had
thought this too apparently back on the first SciFi to SH
thread....Believing so would answer most of your other questions
LSS.
OKAY--LET'S SEE YOUR LOGIC...
quote:
I hypothesized that he [TIC-TAC]wants the orb for either was it
can do, to through the pod squad off on the wrong trail, or for
other reasons. After the shadow appears on Max and Liz and they
wake up to see the rancher (TICTAC) grinning like a maniac about
something. Well, what could it be? Maybe the fact that he got the
orb, he switched it for a different orb or sabotaged it....
BUT IF YOU ARE CORRECT--WHY DID HE STAY THERE AT ALL? WHY NOT SWITCH
AND LEAVE?
YOU ALSO SEEM TO IMPLY THAT HIS ATTITUDE TOWARD THE TEENS IS
SINISTER (OR AT LEAST GLOATING). I'M NOT SURE I AGREE. i DON'T SEE
HIM MAKING ANY THREATENING GESTURES TOWARD THEM. ASIDE FROM THE
SCREAMS IN HANK'S TRAILER, WHAT REASON DO YOU HAVE TO THINK THAT
THIS FIGURE IS SINISTER?
quote:
But it's a widely held belief that TicTac and NasEDo are two
different shapeshifters, at least among the boards.
WHY JUST TWO? IF THERE ARE MULTIPLE ALIENS OUT THERE, HOW CAN YOU
TELL ONE SHAPESHIFTER FROM ANOTHER (OTHER THAN NARRATIVE CLUES)? FOR
EXAMPLE--WHO IS THE SHAPESHIFTER IN CRAZY? WE HAVE REASON TO BELIEVE
THAT THE ONE IN SH IS THE SAME ONE IN ID BECAUSE OF THE FACE. WE
DON'T GET THAT CLUE IN CRAZY.
quote:
In Crazy Tolopski does say, "I know for a fact that it's a
communicator and they work in pairs." --something like that. Well,
the only way she could know for a fact that it's a communicator is
if she's seen them in action.
OR BEEN TOLD HOW THEY FUNCTION BY A SOURCE IN WHICH SHE HAS
CONFIDENCE.
quote:
Frankly, I don't think she knows what she's talking about.
BUT THEY DO FUNCTION IN A DIFFERENT WAY WHEN THEY WERE IN CLOSE
PROXIMITY TO EACH OTHER.
quote:
So, Topolski thought that they worked as pairs for a fact on
either two sub-theories.
a) Highly reliable source, maybe Nasedo posing as FBI informate--
(he's intimately familiar with Eagle Rock Military base). Or maybe
he's trying to get Topolski to deliver the FBI's orb to the pod
squad without getting involved with them. (That's someone else's
idea).
b) She's seen the two orbs in action.
If B) I ask it proves the existance of at least three orbs. The
one the FBI has, "the other", and the one Max & Liz found.
OKAY--I CAN GO WITH THREE ORBS.
quote:
What is the orb's function?....maybe the Mommy message was from
the enemy. The evil aliens switched the real orb- took it- gave
and replace it with an orb that would serve there own purpose.
THIS SEEMS A VARIANT ON THE "MOMOGRAM" AS AN IMPLANTED VISION OF
TESS. THAT IS, IT IS AN INTERPRETATION THE OBJECTIVE OF WHICH IS TO
DENY THE VALIDITY OF THE MESSAGE.
quote:
Then Topolski makes a quick reappearance with another orb.
Possibly another seed from the evil within. Remember how focused
Pierce was in WR! He was more interested in orbs than Max. He was
going to kill Max over it. And also, note he didn't know how they
worked. He's never seen them work, or else, how could Tess fool
him?
OKAY--THIS SIMPLY GOES ALONG WITH YOUR MULTIPLE ORBS THEORY WHICH I
HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH. AND YES, THE FACT THAT HE DOES NOT KNOW HOW
THEY "SHOULD" WORK IS IMPORTANT.
quote:
So, the evil aliens plant two orbs, that are long range
communicators to give out a homing single. At the same time, they
create somesort of Mommy message that will force the podsters to
leave the orbs working for just long enough to trace them. The
message itself is unimportant! It's just got to be enough to feed
there hunger.
OKAY--TWO QUESTIONS....
YOU IMPLY THAT THE HOMING DEVICE (BY WHICH ALL THOSE ALIENS AT THE
END PICKED UP THE ORBS' USE) WAS AN INTENTIONAL IMPLANTED FUNCTION
BY THE BAD ALIENS. BUT HARDING WARNS THEM THAT MAY WILL HAPPEN
(ALERT PEOPLE THEY DO NOT WANT TO ALERT]. THEREFORE, BY YOUR LOGIC,
HARDING WOULD HAVE TO BE A BAD ALIEN BECAUSE HE KNOWS OF THE HOMING
DEVICE. BUT IF HARDING IS A BAD ALIEN (WHICH I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH
ACTUALLY) WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD HE WARN MAX ABOUT USING THE ORB? HE
WOULD "WANT" MAX TO USE IT!!!!
IF THE BAD ALIENS GO TO ALL THIS TROUBLE TO SWITCH ORBS AND MAKE
SURE THE PODSTERS GET THE ORBS--WHY WOULD THEY NEED THE HOMING
DEVICE? BY THIS TIME ITS OBVIOUS WHO THE ALIENS ARE.
So-- how's that for possibly my longest post ever? VERY INTERESTING
SPECULATION.
Now, go click an ad! AMEN!
From Nebraska!YEAH...SIGH...I LIKE NEB!!
Qfanny
Remember is not an MAYBE NOT YET Hehehehehehe
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-21-2000 at 06:10 PM]
08-21-2000 07:41 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Honestly LSS, sometimes when I start typing my switched
orb theory, I get a different answer than what I intended to reach.
This is certainly the case. The current version to Liz's Important
to Alien Mythology has even more... I think I've type the word orb
10,000 times this last week.
Anyway, you did drill some holes into my logic. Particularly why
NasEDo would tell Max not to use the orbs if he really wants Max to
use them. Maybe this is a variation of a shapeshifter assuming the
role of another shapeshifter. Somehow, that seems unlikely. I'm not
sure if I can offer a logical answer-- or a logical theory for that
matter.
And yes, and to try to answer your question about the homing beacon
question, I sort of thought that even though the evil aliens know
how they are, they need reinforcements. And the only thing they have
to contact them is the orbs, which they cannot use because of their
"evil within." Still doesn't explain HowieD.
As far as the variant of the Tesselvision theory-- I think the idea
of switched orbs is much more likely than Tess's Smokerings. for one
thing, it's not a cheap copout. It actually has some pretty thick
layers to it. (Again, I encourage you to visit
http://www.fanforum.com/forum/upload/showthread.php?threadid=42921
for more...) as far as motive, it even if the orbs are switched, it
doesn't necessarly mean that the reason for a swap is an evil one.
There could be all sorts of reasons why.
But you do bring in some good flaws in my posting, but can anyone
here overcome why Nasedo would tell Max not to use the orbs, when he
does want to him to use the orbs?
I'll have to sleep on that one tonight.
Now go click an ad!
From Nebraska
Qfanny!
Remember is not an and
is now an
08-21-2000 07:45 PM IP: Logged
Colonel Stuart
Fan Registered: Aug 2000
Did I miss something? Crazy was not on tonight!!
08-21-2000 08:00 PM
yossarin
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
i dont know if this is off topic, but like someone said,
Pierce could be an alien. and i think he could be in cohoots w/
Nasedo. Why else would Nasedo have stormed haphazardly into the
White room where Max was. And since we didnt see what happened when
Nasedo and Pierce did alone, we dont know if they relayed messages
to each other. like, "they took the bait" or "now with the podsters
together, the orbs will finally be turned on"
but for this to be true, Pierce should be in human form as well, so
he can open the security checks in Eagle Rock.
Then Pierce who must have been mentally trained by the FBI elite
force, could have let Isabelle look into his mind in order to allow
them to fall into the ruse, so they 'll turn on the orbs.
After Max heals Kyle, and leaves the UFO center, no reference to
Pierce is given. And since Nasedo isnt seen by anyone there, he
might have used Tess's power to simulate Michael's use of force to
kill Pierce. Afterall, Michael isnt as well trained to completely
control his powers yet, and maybe he didnt really do anything to
Pierce, but fooled all of them that something did happen.
-Yoss
08-21-2000 08:11 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Colonel Stuart
Did I miss something? Crazy was not on tonight!!
No--you are right. Think of this as sharpening our sense of this
eppy so that when it does come on (next week, Aug 28) we'll all be
primed! This thread will run for two weeks insead of just one.
LSS
08-21-2000 09:37 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Okay, there's now 10 posts and my name is on three off
them... Shows you how dedicated I am to the show.
I'm actually going to talk about something new.
A question was posed on why the orbs would send play the mommy
message and give off a signal at the same time. I've never had any
problems with it myself. The orb (God I'm going to type orb
forever!) is not a VCR or a DVD. It's more like a cellular phone.
It's sending a radio signal out to find a message requested. It then
delivers the message to the user. Because it uses frequency
wavelengths, anyone!, can tune into it's wavelength and get the same
signal.
To help illistrate, think of the movie Contact (the one with Jodie
Foster, it's a fave of mine). When she picks up the signal from
outspace and they discover that the signal carriers information on
television frequencies, they start trying to adjust the frequencies
so the message can be pick-up on the television monitor. We learn
that sending back the first broadcast message- Hitler at the Munich
games. Like chemistry and mathematics, the technology involved with
broadcasting is not going to change from planet to planet.
If you can believe this then it shouldn't be too much of a stretch
to believe that any radio frequency can be traced. Ok. Think to the
movie Independence Day. There is a scene where the guy from Jurasic
Park finds his ex-wife location by setting up a tri-angular search
technique. (Ok-- I know I'm speaking very, very generally, but it
should be enough for you to get the gist.)
So I have never struggled with the fact that using the orbs would
also attrack the evil aliens. The message is not a private one, but
a very, very public one. Maybe more public than we know.
Now click those ads!
From Nebraska
Qfanny!
Remember is not an and is an
08-21-2000 10:14 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
originally by Palomino:
...1. Tic-tac, presumably the same shapeshifter responsible for
the Hankocide, ...
I prefer the theory that Tictac was just mopping up after
Nasedo/Harding, and that Harding killed Hank because his knowledge
combined with his animosity made him too great a liability. Also,
new thought: The sweating, panting Tictac who buried Hank was also
the sweating, panting one who buried the orb (orgasmic metaphors
aside).
I think Topolsky's ideas may have been false because she was duped
into getting the orb, but ol' Tictac The Good saved the night as Dr.
Margolis.
My main reason for not letting go of the switched orb idea is that
Max & Liz no longer had the orb visions after that time when
switching was possible. Also, Tictac might have just not had a
chance to leave yet--at least not without arousing suspicion.
So, does anyone with a complete set of tapes and a
GraceKelled-to-death VCR know for sure if Mommo emerged from one or
the other orb?
08-21-2000 10:36 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Hi LSS well I have a slightly different theory on the
orbs switch than QFanny--so here goes---I just think this is a
possibility not a done deal.
The fact that we see a shadow come over Liz and Max in the desert
(and I think the music here at this point sounds a little sinister)
tells me that someone like or working in cohoots with Mr
Harding/Tess switches the orb. Then we go to another scene M and M,
A and I and then we come back----I think this is TicTac's
arrival--comes in a very approving way smiling in a protective way
that they should now get home---he is happy that they found the
orb--is not aware of the earlier switch!!! By the Shadow.----When
TicTac comes in I hear almost Indian music I think.
Who is the COYOTE howling in the desert--well this could go either
way---Since Riverdog was frightened of the COYOTE howling in
RIVERDOG EPPY--then this Coyote howling could have been Harding/Tess
or someone in cohoots with them -afterall coyote is the
TRICKSTER--and Mr Harding and Tess both have demonstrated some
TRICKERY or the Coyote could be TicTac ---but not evil-but using
trickery------no I think I will go with the COYOTE representing MR
HARDING/TESS.
Because if it were TicTac he would have witnessed the orb switch and
I don't think he did---I think he came later cuz he found out Max
and Liz were missing and knew where they would be---so came to tell
them to get home.
08-21-2000 10:46 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999
I just had a thought---Nancy Parker came into Liz's room
and saw an empty bed---could she be TicTac--she does keep
questioning Liz about what is going on "You don't have to lie to me
about this" or she could have told Mr Parker or the EVANS for that
matter--could TicTac be one of these parents after all, Mr Evans? It
could be any of them! Or it might not be but they could have told
someone else and somehow TicTac found out.
08-21-2000 11:02 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Sorry I just had some more thoughts. WHY do you ask do I
think this MIGHT have happened---because what was the point of the
cut away at all from this scene---when we return to this scene with
Max and Liz just starting to wake up the first thing the camera pans
on is the ORB first---why?
Why would someone like Mr Harding/Tess want to switch the
orbs---well to keep them from there real destiny---maybe its the
HUMANS---they are not absolutely KEEN on HUMANS are they--they seem
to think of them as inferior or something---maybe a little amusing
but inferior none the less-----to keep their race pure? Or maybe it
was simply to send their own signal to their kind.
08-21-2000 11:30 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
This is slightly off topic, but still about the orb. I
started thinking while reading the above posts.... what if the orb
was not buried in 1949 after the crash, but buried by the alien who
escaped captivity? The FBI special unit then would have had both
orbs for a time, and that's how they knew there were two, but still
couldn't figure out their function... or perhaps they did, but the
captured alien took it and escaped, then buried it near the tower...
that is why part of Liz's vision in SH included the soldiers with
guns chasing someone.
08-21-2000 11:35 PM
Kim648
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
Hey guys!! I don't know what I'm going to do with you
starting this a week early, I don't have this episode on tape!! So
anyway, just a few things.
Okay, just to start off. About Howie, I was thinking that maybe he
was a good alien and the orbs contacted every good alien, just to
let them know, that the team has found out about their past and is
ready to get a plan or something. I guess how the mother tells them
that their are bad aliens here and all of a sudden it goes to Howie,
kind of screws it up, but there could be a big change!!
Okay, I thought of another theory for Tictac. He was Nasedo and he
has become weaker from entering the sweat. Even though Michael
doesn't seem to have physically changed since then, it did hit
Nasedo quicker and he is suppose to be another life form. Another
thing is, the plan may have been to go to that Indian Reservation
and keep the rocks there, and that's why Harding had known to tell
Tess.
Okay, I know this is off subject, but I just saw a commercial for
Roswell on Space Channel. I'm so excited, their starting at the
beginning on September 8 and so on from Fridays from there!! Anyway,
sorry for that sidetract..
About Topolsky being bad, I don't really buy it. Why would they show
that scene with them picking her up and her all angry. Like the
podster would have been able to see that!! I guess it could have
been for Tictac, but didn't he already know there was something
funny about her, or did he just know the FBI were following her?
Pierce couldn't be a SS like the rest since he's able to go through
the security, fake hand? I don't think so. But is he is an evil
alien, maybe they have the same bone structure as humans, or was
also genetically modified. I was thinking that maybe they switched
the orb (Pierce) because only the podsters would be able to be able
to make them work, even though they were the evil alien orbs. That
could be why he was so interested in the orb. But that momogram
definately wasn't for the evil aliens, maybe they're still to figure
out how the orbs work..hehe, and they might get a really weird
message like, "Kill Max, and the rest!!"lol..Also, about Harding
telling the podsters to be careful with the orbs, I think he was
just making them have more temptation. I don't understand, though,
why if he was on their side, why would he tell them not to do it?
Obviously they were meant to get the message. Maybe he thought they
weren't ready for what they may get?
Well I gotta go, hope I said something interesting,
Kim
08-22-2000 07:52 AM
rocklowery
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
This is slightly off topic, but still about the orb. I started
thinking while reading the above posts.... what if the orb was not
buried in 1949 after the crash, but buried by the alien who
escaped captivity? The FBI special unit then would have had both
orbs for a time, and that's how they knew there were two, but
still couldn't figure out their function... or perhaps they did,
but the captured alien took it and escaped, then buried it near
the tower... that is why part of Liz's vision in SH included the
soldiers with guns chasing someone.
Oooooo...I think you've got something here!!! It accounts for them
knowing about both orbs, the soldiers, and the captive alien! Are
you sure you aren't one of the writers??!!
One other thing I noticed in Crazy that supports my theory that
Topolsky had help: in the scene in the restaurant, Topolsky looks
around and SPOTS SOMEBODY but doesn't seem scared of them, almost
like she was expecting the guy to be there. She doesn't get nervous
until the guys show up at the front door. I'd be willing to bet the
guy she makes eye contact with is her accomplice. I don't think this
exchange would've been included if it wasn't a clue to her
connection.
08-22-2000 08:04 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Hi GraceKel!
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
The fact that we see a shadow come over Liz and Max in the desert
(and I think the music here at this point sounds a little
sinister) tells me that someone like or working in cohoots with Mr
Harding/Tess switches the orb.
OKAY--Music can be an indicator of mood--but this would be stronger
if we had some dramatic action or dialogue to back it up.
quote:
....and then we come back----I think this is TicTac's
arrival--comes in a very approving way smiling in a protective way
that they should now get home---he is happy that they found the
orb--is not aware of the earlier switch!!!
OKAY--this is possible--that the shadow we see and the figure are
two separate persons. Possible and probable, however are not the
same.
quote:
Who is the COYOTE howling in the desert--well this could go either
way---Since Riverdog was frightened of the COYOTE howling in
RIVERDOG EPPY--then this Coyote howling could have been
Harding/Tess or someone in cohoots with them -afterall coyote is
the TRICKSTER--and Mr Harding and Tess both have demonstrated some
TRICKERY or the Coyote could be TicTac ---but not evil-but using
trickery------no I think I will go with the COYOTE representing MR
HARDING/TESS.
OKAY--I have always been intrigued by both the scenes you mention
(RD and SH/coyote) and you are right about Coyote's mythological
significance and the Hardings' deception.
quote:
Because if it were TicTac he would have witnessed the orb switch
and I don't think he did
IF there WAS an orb switch.
QFanny and GraceKel: What we have been doing in the above posts is
debating the details of one basic theory: THAT THE ORBS WERE
SWITCHED. Instead of simply debating the details for a moment, I'd
like to step back and address the premise of this theory.
Standing behind both your "takes" on the orbs is the idea that the
cave message is deceptive. QFanny, you suggested in your second post
that this deception need not be negative, but that it was still
trickery. (We might ask, what a "positive" deception might look
like.)
Now, believe me, I do not like the cave message any more than you
do. And I have posted at length on this subject (especially in my
overall review of the first season's SF). Nevertheless, aside from
my personal distaste for this plot element and its long range
implications for our story arc, we have no narrative indications
that the message itself is false (actually we really haven't had
time to have them given the fact that this plot element was revealed
in the last moments of the finale].
We CAN argue that one part of it is suspiciously self serving of
Tess' agenda (hence the implanted vision interpretation). I
truthfully don't know if this is where the writers are going because
we simply haven't had (and won't have) the narrative development
until next fall.
To suggest that the Bad aliens (or someone else) switched orbs,
however, means that you need to present (if you want your position
to move from possible to probable) some persuasive motivation for
the switch. So...instead of arguing HOW it might have been
done...could you address for me WHY it would have been?
QFanny--you mention it is a homing device (i.e. the message was
insignificant, the use of the orb was important). I'm not persuaded
of that however, given the fact that Harding apparently knows of
this ramification of the orbs' use and even warns them of it.
That only leaves us with the message's significance as a key
indicator. Thus you have the idea that the orbs were switched
because of the message. This brings us back to the Tessavision
theory (which is far less complicated in some ways that the switched
orb theory).
WHY would the orbs been switched aside from the above reasons?
OR better yet--are there reasons why it would NOT be in the bad
aliens' self-interest for our podsters to hear that message? What
about this: Would you really want to alert your enemies (especially
their leaders) to the fact that a war is going on IF they had no
prior knowledge of the conflict?
Ever hear of the old adage: Forewarned is Forearmed?
LSS
[Edited by LSS on 08-22-2000 at 08:08 AM]
08-22-2000 08:19 AM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Kim, you're not alone, I'm running off memories of my one
viewing of Crazy, but there's also transcripts and images posted on
Crashdown.
About Harding advising against activating the orbs and then washing
his hands of it: I posted on the Representations thread a while back
that Harding/Nasedo is a type of Jiminy Cricket ("let your
conscience be your guide"). That is, the podsters have free will,
but he speaks with authority on right and wrong. However, since his
value of human (and maybe alien?) life is not like ours, he is a
sort of Bizarro Land Jiminy Crickett. Also, being calculating as he
is, he may have figured that alerting the enemies was less important
than advancing Tess's importance with the Mommogram message (which
he somehow would have already known).
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-22-2000 at 08:28 AM]
08-22-2000 08:42 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by rocklowery
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
This is slightly off topic, but still about the orb. I started
thinking while reading the above posts.... what if the orb was
not buried in 1949 after the crash, but buried by the alien who
escaped captivity? The FBI special unit then would have had both
orbs for a time, and that's how they knew there were two, but
still couldn't figure out their function... or perhaps they did,
but the captured alien took it and escaped, then buried it near
the tower... that is why part of Liz's vision in SH included the
soldiers with guns chasing someone.
/quote]
quote:
Oooooo...I think you've got something here!!! It accounts for
them knowing about both orbs, the soldiers, and the captive
alien! the scene in the restaurant, Topolsky look
I think you are both correct in hypothesizing that this might
have happened. We are just assuming that the scene we see is in
1947. But if they had both the orbs and the alien and hence knew
that the orbs worked in pairs--why did Pierce not know HOW they
worked? Since he had studied the files of that captivity
thoroughly (he admits this in MTTM) why was this important bit
of info left out (IF they had it)?
LSS
08-22-2000 08:43 AM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
LSS, I too am a proponent of the possibility of the orb
switching for reasons indicated by Qfanny & GraceKel, e.g., why else
would there be a cutaway to another scene after first showing the
shadow and then the wake up scene with the orb laying accessibly in
plane sight? But you are correct in that eventually the motive will
have to be revealed. So, how about multi-funtionality and muti orbs?
The orb that would now be missing contains valuable essences or
memories or strategies or whatever. A substitute orb allowed the
Momo transmission, but not the crucial info. Actually, with this
motive I am just trying to go along with your premise that Mommogram
is legitmate. I really prefer to think that the orb switching will
be the basis for falsifying the content of the Mommogram because:
and
and that if the alien clones pair up (instead of bonding with
humans) they will thwart the possibility of reaching their highest
goals. Recall Michael in SH speculating that maybe they were
supposed to get close to humans to find out their purpose in life.
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-22-2000 at 08:50 AM]
08-22-2000 08:59 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Hi Shapeshifter:
Multifunctionality is fine. I think, in fact, that might be a
"given" in terms of the narrative dialogue and actions that we have.
And while switched orbs are possible, I'm just waiting to be
persuaded that they are the probable explanation for what we have
thus far.
But I would like to address something I found interesting both in
your above post and in your posts on the SF of SH thread...i.e. the
orbs as recepticles of essence. You know, if we had FOUR orbs
instead of just two I would really like that theory because it would
dovetail nicely with the "connection" we see in SH between Max and
the desert buried orb. In the original SF of SH thread we discussed
at length this connection.
Of course if you DO have more orbs than we have seen this could
still work out. Also, even if you only have two, each could have
contained the essences of our pair bonded couples. This is a bit
more problematic however because the finding of the orb indicates a
M/L connection (Yea Liz) but the working of the orb in the cave
indicates a T/M connection (Yea Tess; Ycch I didn't mean that
really).
OKAY--JUST for fun--let's argue that THAT is the reason the orbs
were switched...so that they would work with T/M instead of M/L and
thus convince Max that Tess is his destiny rather than Liz. This is
possible--whether or not it is probable remains to be seen
LSS
08-22-2000 05:06 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-22-2000 at 05:08 PM]
08-22-2000 05:06 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
I'm going to typing the word orb forever, but I think I
can manages to give you some more substance on the whole SWITCH ORB
Theory!
This will take a while and I may have to post first thing in the AM
when boards are quiet.
From Nebraska
Qfanny
Now go click and ad
is now an
is not an
08-22-2000 08:43 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Hi QFanny:
Looking forward to seeing you expand your theory.
LSS
08-22-2000 08:45 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
LSS: I hope this is the type of post you're looking for.
Now, if my idea was that far out there, I guess no one would be
asking me for further explanation. So as much as I hate you forcing
me to look at this again I'm loving the fact that what I've said
looks important.
First of all, I want to clear up something. I did not dream up the
switched orbs to explain away Destiny's aftermath. Switched orbs
most likely would alter Destiny, but doesn't mean it WILL alter
Destiny. All I'm trying to argue is that the orbs could have been
switched or sabotaged. That's first and foremost in my mind. If I
can get you, or anyone else that far, you can see what a wonderful
world of possibilities open up. As you suggest, I'll stay away from
the how questions and try to stick with the who and why questions.
But first, I must address some statements in your post to me.
LSS' quote
We have no narrative indications that the message itself is false:
Qfanny's reply
Narrative is a key word. If you mean the dialog, the script may not
offer any help. But let us not forget that actions, mood, customer,
make-up, lights, direction, editing, delivery, special effects and
music all have a part in the story. Some of the most important
scenes in Roswell, have NO DIALOG whatsoever. (Think Pilot, when Max
heals Liz and the scenes of the connections. Pretty heavy stuff!) My
point is, there are other resources than just the dialog that can
tell a story. And the basis of the switch orb theory falls into
these other resources. (Why does Rancher smile so at Max & Liz? Why
does the orb seem to stop working? Why does the visions between Max
& Liz stop? Why is it starting with Crazy we have a "different
NasEDo" than we've had before. Why? Why? Why?) The switched/sabotage
orb theory can offer insight into all of this.
LSS's quote
WHY it would have been (switched)?
Qfanny's answer
Knowing what little we know about the orbs, I cannot answer this
without a bit of speculation. It would certainly be helpful if we
knew everything it could do. I would not be surprised if the orb was
multitasking. But generally, my answer is, the orb does something
that the "unknown" wants for himself and/or doesn't want the
podsters to have. Whomever buried the thing, thought it was
important. Or why would they rush to do it? Why would it be next to
a landmark? The big question is does it do? Possible answers:
A) It is a communicator like Tolposki says in Crazy. A swap or
sabotage would keep the truth about the podster's mythology away
from the podsters. (Even the podster's own kind haven't been too
open to telling them anything useful-- have they.)
B) It's swapped for an evil alien's orb that keeps track of the
podsters -- homing beacon variant.
C) Benevolent deception: The orb was swapped to replace it for one
that would stop the visions between Max and Liz and help foster a
Max/Tess union. (Hey, if rocks can cure Michael, I can believe an
orb could interfere with the Max/Liz mind meld.)
LSS's question
Qfanny--you mention it is a homing device (i.e. the message was
insignificant, the use of the orb was important). I'm not persuaded
of that however, given the fact that Harding apparently knows of
this ramification of the orbs' use and even warns them of it.
Qfanny's answer
Yeah, I can't get past that either, unless Harding was playing some
reverse psychology. Our heros are teenagers and sometimes that's
necessary to get them to do what you want. Still think it's
farfetched. But I can let go of the beacon rationale I first posted.
Like I said in paragraph one, I'm more concerned with supporting
swapping/sabotage happened than I trying to get rid of Destiny's
aftermath.
LSS's question
That only leaves us with the message's significance as a key
indicator. Thus you have the idea that the orbs were switched
because of the message. This brings us back to the Tessavision
theory (which is far less complicated in some ways that the switched
orb theory).
WHY would the orbs been switched aside from the above reasons?
OR better yet--are there reasons why it would NOT be in the bad
aliens' self-interest for our podsters to hear that message? What
about this: Would you really want to alert your enemies (especially
their leaders) to the fact that a war is going on IF they had no
prior knowledge of the conflict? Ever hear of the old adage:
Forewarned is Forearmed?
Qfanny's answer
I may have implied that the orbs were switched because of the
message, but I hope that somewhere along the line I have stated
something that contradicts this assumption. I think what I was
trying to say about the message is (under the homing beacon idea)
that Mommy's message didn't matter because the purpose of the
message (as an evil alien beacon) was to keep the orbs on to get a
solid trace. The message may not be fake: even if the orbs are
switched! It could be coming from the "good" orb. (I have already
posted a that I believe the orbs can work independently.) Because
reasons for switching/sabotaging the orb could go good or bad, I
tend to lean to the bad side because of the further reaching
implications of Destiny.
But LSS, the Dreamer I know you are, I offer you this to consider
under a switched orb premise: I know you'll love the irony! I put
this on the Liz's importance to Alien Mythology a few days ago.
Qfanny said:"I just need to say that fact Liz uncovers the orb the
is critical to the alien's mythology! Max had no recall of this
memory nor did it sound familiar to Michael and Isabel. It's too
bad: for what she recovered eventually caused her to think she had
to leave Max. (Another reason why those orbs could have been
switched--- WE HAVE TO GET RID OF HER.)
Hopefully coherent!
From Nebraska
Qfanny
Now go click that ad!
Remember is not an
08-22-2000 09:05 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999
LSS you are very hard to convince LOL!!!! I just wanted
to let you know that I just visited the old SCIFI of SH eppy and
Nemo just posted practically my same theory about the orb switch,
which he believes is a great possibility--so that makes four of
us---we are growing in numbers LMAO--no I'm just kidding you---who
can be sure of anything--I just thought it was odd the whole scene
cutaway---and coming back panning on the ORB first thing when we
come back(almost showing how VULNERABLE and UNPROTECTED it was) and
what did the shadow do--come over and just give them a look???? I
guess you can say well why didn't they just show the SHADOW picking
it up---but I thought that was the fun of this kind of show---things
aren't suppose to be OBVIOUS!!!! Its like a puzzle you have to piece
together. As for the motive---well I think just exactly why the POD
SQUAD is here I think will remain a mystery for quite some time---I
think this just could have been a way to manipulate them, since we
know there has been cameras spying on them I am sure someone heard
Max say "I don't even know who I am" and this would be music to
enemy ears---now we can write the script for them and keep them
under our thumbs!
08-22-2000 11:05 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
LSS, yet another orb switch motive possibility:
Tictac--who is really RiverDog the Shaman as indicated by Native
American music and limp down from rock (he was changed into a
shapeshifter following near-death experience when he fearfully
helped Nasedo with the healing stones)--switches the orbs to protect
Liz from being found out by the enemy aliens to be Max's bride,
which would be dangerous for her. Recall his concern for her in the
cave "be sure he is worthy of your trust."
08-22-2000 11:20 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by LSS
quote:
Originally posted by rocklowery
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
This is slightly off topic, but still about the orb. I started
thinking while reading the above posts.... what if the orb was
not buried in 1949 after the crash, but buried by the alien
who escaped captivity? The FBI special unit then would have
had both orbs for a time, and that's how they knew there were
two, but still couldn't figure out their function... or
perhaps they did, but the captured alien took it and escaped,
then buried it near the tower... that is why part of Liz's
vision in SH included the soldiers with guns chasing someone.
/quote]
quote:
Oooooo...I think you've got something here!!! It accounts
for them knowing about both orbs, the soldiers, and the
captive alien! the scene in the restaurant, Topolsky look
I think you are both correct in hypothesizing that this might
have happened. We are just assuming that the scene we see is
in 1947. But if they had both the orbs and the alien and hence
knew that the orbs worked in pairs--why did Pierce not know
HOW they worked? Since he had studied the files of that
captivity thoroughly (he admits this in MTTM) why was this
important bit of info left out (IF they had it)?
LSS
If the FBI did have both orbs for a period of time, we cannot
assume that they ever figured out how they worked... the alien
that escaped with it may not have given up that bit of
information; or perhaps he/she did tell them it was a
communicator but was not able to make it function for them
because he/she did not have the right mental powers... as the
podsters DO. They were able to make the two work because their
"special connections" allowed it. If we go back to the theory
that the other aliens aboard the ship were guardians of a sort
(worker bees), they may not have had the genetic key in their
make-up to get them to work. Nasedo/Harding certainly
couldn't... he didn't even appear to know what exactly the
function of the orbs was... of course, he could have been
pretending for some reason (and we've heard speculation to that
end). How frustrating for the Special Unit to have the orbs in
their possession, but not the key to make them work!
08-22-2000 11:38 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Dove-tailing on Lorillei's post: How bout if the guardian
aliens (assuming Harding is who/what he says he is and not an evil
alien, or at least not an enemy alien--LSS, thinking of the books'
diffentiation of evil and enemy) didn't have the knowledge of the
orbs' function in order to prevent them from spilling the info in a
torture scenario or being tempted to use it for a different agenda.
Maybe an orb was hidden by an enemy alien who only knew that they
needed 2 and the tortured guardian alien told that there were 2
needed partly because in a scenario like Pierce with Max the
tortured alien was trying to give an answer that he didn't have
(i.e. how the orb worked), and partly to get the FBI to help locate
the missing orb. So, then, the FBI knew about the other orb even
though they never found it, rather, Liz found it by inadvertantly
triggering feelings in Max. But then, what about that line in the
Pilot "We've got to get rid of her!" With hindsight, it seems that
it might have been spoken by someone who knew, as Michael said, that
by connecting with humans they would find out about themselves,
specifically by triggering the orb--unless of course it was the
planet Venus alignment, but then Max said Liz was his Venus.
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-22-2000 at 11:43 PM]
08-23-2000 10:07 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
LSS you are very hard to convince LOL!!!! I just wanted to let you
know that I just visited the old SCIFI of SH eppy and Nemo just
posted practically my same theory about the orb switch, which he
believes is a great possibility--so that makes four of us---we are
growing in numbers LMAO--no I'm just kidding you---who can be sure
of anything--I just thought it was odd the whole scene
cutaway---and coming back panning on the ORB first thing when we
come back(almost showing how VULNERABLE and UNPROTECTED it was)
and what did the shadow do--come over and just give them a
look???? I guess you can say well why didn't they just show the
SHADOW picking it up---but I thought that was the fun of this kind
of show---things aren't suppose to be OBVIOUS!!!! Its like a
puzzle you have to piece together.
GraceKel:
You are right--I'm afraid I represent a more conservative school of
interpretation!!! But hey--someone has to!!! What fun!
You know it is really interesting...if I had to describe the
methodological "schools of interpretation" for Roswell on the board,
they would range from literalists to mystical!!!! It is really
interesting that this show has evoked such ardent analysis. It is
quite "multi-leveled" in that way.
BTW--you ARE right. There is something vaguely sinsiter about that
shadow. (Later I keep waiting for someone to steal the orb--even as
Liz tucks it in her backback in the Jeep!!) In the desert scene I
simply attibuted the sinister ambience to the presence of tic-tac. I
see that you are suggesting, however, that something "happens"
between those frames. It is, as I said, possible. As for WHY such a
switch might occur it seems we have various ideas. Let me see if I
have this right:
THE SWITCHED ORB THEORY
1) THE NEGATIVE INTERPRETATION
***the orbs are switched because the new orb contains a homing
device that will lead the bad aliens to the podsters.
***the orbs are switched because the new orb contains a false
message (either about the war or about Tess being Max's bride)
***the original orb works with M/L but the new orb will work with
M/T
2) THE POSITIVE INTERPRETATION
***the orbs are switched because Nesedo/RD wants to protect Liz (Liz
is Max's bride but by saying Tess is, attention is diverted away
from Liz thus protecting her)
Any other ideas in terms of why such a switch would have been made
(if it was, that is)?
For me, at least, the motivation for the switch is a key ingredient
in persuading me that it occured (since we do not yet have narrative
confirmation of this switch).
LSS
08-23-2000 01:44 PM
Emily_A
Addicted Fan Registered: Apr 2000
Hi all! I'm definatly a lurker on this thread but I love
all of the theories that are discussed!
I read through the posts above and still can't find a logical
explaination to a question.
I read the script before the ep to refresh my memory. So, Why would
tic-tac or nasedo would pose as Dr. Margolin and in my opinion -
throw the pod squad off track. It could be saving them from pierce
but wouldn't he think about what would happen if the real Dr.
Margolin was ever discovered. I feel you would be the best place to
come for answers. I'd just like to hear your thoughts.
Thanks
Emily
08-23-2000 05:51 PM IP: Logged
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Very interesting theories on the orbs.
At the end of SH, there is a time lapse between Tic-tac's shadow
falling across Liz and when they wake up. Inbetween are the scenes
of Nancy Parker finding the bed empty, and Isabel letting Alex kiss
her. We don't know exactly how much time this is. This gives Tic-tac
time for the switch, but what if he didn't need to switch it, only
TAMPER with it?
It was brought up before by Qfanny that the orbs have to be set to a
frequency, and I heartily agree, as I've said before on other
threads. When the pre-recorded message played in the pod chamber,
Mommy said the "If you are hearing this now ..." stuff, which means
the orbs had to have been "set" to those four individuals who were
concentrating on it. The message apparently would not have played
unless the four intended podsters were all "alive and well" and
there. Seems simple, but what if it was actually Tess that was
switched and not the orb? What if whoever is behind the Tess switch
still wants Max and the others to hear the message and accept Tess
as one of the group? If the message played because of (in part) her
pressence, this should convince the podsters to take her into the
fold. BUT... if she was a knowing or unknowing fake, the message
would not have played and the podsters would not accept her.
To get around the problem, Tic-tac would have to make sure the
message played when she joined the concentration effort, but if it
was not set to work on her brain wave frequency, he would have to
change the frequency the orb would accept. If he had the orb there
on the desert for we-don't-know-exactly-how-long, he could have
tampered with the orb to reset it for the fake Tess's frequency.
This would mean that Harding and Tic-tac were working together, or
Harding doesn't know he collected a fake podster.
Plausable at all?
08-23-2000 06:30 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Palomino:
You are all that and a bag of chips! I love this idea. And thank you
for responding to the post that took me three hours to write!
LOL!
But, I think that if this were the case, Harding would have to be as
clueless about the switch as the podsters? LSS really layed into me
about the orb as a homing beacon variant theory. How would you
explain Harding telling Max not to use it? With your theory, it
would also unravel Four Squares because the metal book found in the
library would have to be a fake. Unless you believe that Tess too is
a shapeshifter (she's shifty in character but not nature) and could
assume the identity of the fourth alien.
But--- I remain convinced that somewhere in this there is TRUTH.
thanks for the great idea!
Now go click an ad!
From Nebraska
Qfanny!
Remember is not an and is an
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-23-2000 at 06:34 PM]
08-23-2000 07:04 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Just reading through the Crazy script and I noticed that
Topolsky obviously had access to the information from the videocam
in Michael's apt. as these quotes indicate:
quote:
back at Michael's after Topolsky has appeared to M&L to 'warn'
them:
LIZ: No, Michael. She was really scared. I believed her.
...
ALEX: Do you really think she's here to warn us?
LIZ: She wasn't the same person she was before. You know, and the
way that she was talking, she seemed like she was just as scared
for herself as she is for us.
ALEX: Then I say we listen.
then she appears to know what they said at Michael's. At Senor
Chow's to Liz:
TOPOLSKY:...I knew you were the one I could get through to. ...
then Alex at the quarry:
ALEX: I say we meet, hear what she has to say.
and the agent to Alex:
PASSENGER: Alex? You're Alex Whitman, aren't you? It's ok, Alex.
Topolsky sent me. She knows you'd want to see her...hear what she
has to say.
Note too that Tess and Harding and the box of photos shows up at
precisely this time with the armed military escort (like they
thought someone was after them?).
And then we have Tictac/Dr. Margolis who knows way too much about
Topolsky and the FBI.
quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny
Palomino:Remember is not an and is an
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-23-2000 at 08:27 PM]
08-23-2000 08:17 PM IP: Logged
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Originally posted by Qfanny :
But, I think that if this were the case, Harding would have to be as
clueless about the switch as the podsters? LSS really layed into me
about the orb as a homing beacon variant theory. How would you
explain Harding telling Max not to use it? With your theory, it
would also unravel Four Squares because the metal book found in the
library would have to be a fake. Unless you believe that Tess too is
a shapeshifter (she's shifty in character but not nature) and could
assume the identity of the fourth alien.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I also think the orbs have more than one purpose, like:
a. The message player.
b. The sending beacon. (To let the home world or "Mom-ship" know
that the podsters are alive and have played the message.
Reinforcements and a ride home may now be on the way. We saw this in
Destiny, but so did the evil aliens.)
c. A message recorder. (It was recording when it was being burried
in the SH vision.)
d. They may have tons of other uses.
e. A podster-calling device. The orb might have caused and/or
detected Max's biological awakening, or was timed to go off at about
the right time. (I think in SH that the orb did not detect M/T near
it but detected Max within range, so it called by sending
subconscious visions to Max, and maybe Tess. They were maybe suposed
to give each other flashes to ensure it was found by both of them,
but the orb was not counting on Max having connected up with Liz,
and sending her the flashes instead of Tess. Mi/I were not
connecting with each other, so did not exchange flashes of their
orb, or it was out of range - if it even was intended to have the
same affect on them. Once Max found and held his orb, it settled
down happily in its owner's arms - how cute. Sorry, I'm getting way
off your questions Qfanny.
Anyhow, if Harding was an unwitting accomplice to the Tess-o-switch,
he would probably not be in any hurry to have the evil aliens to
come after her as well as the others. It is still in keeping as
protector for Harding to discourage them from using the orbs until
they are "ready", because he thinks Tess is real. (She may think she
is too.)
About the book in the library: What if it was already altered by
Tic-tac? I don't know exactly what is wrong about it, but the fact
that the "Saturn" symbol is on the front of the book instead of the
"Whirlwind" symbol, disturbs me. I don't know if it's a handbook for
the bad guys or the good guys, but if it was for the bad guys, why
does Tess know about it? Too bad nobody brought it up to Harding.
I'm not comfortable giving my guesses on the book, yet. Still
thinking, but hindered by lack of data.
Going to bed. Work in the morning.
08-23-2000 08:37 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Okay you guys are really mixing me up I thought TICTAC
was supposed to be the GOOD GUY?----I thought the COYOTE is either
Harding or Tess(herself--working together or maybe ONE IS JUST
DUPING THE OTHER-not sure which) Therefore the sinister
COYOTE/Harding or Tess is the shadow that appears over them---maybe
switched or tampered-hey I'll go along with that! and then along
comes TicTac because Nancy Parker has discovered that her daughter
is not in her bed--either contacts TicTac or is TicTac to tell them
to get the heck home but happy they have uncovered the all important
orb---not knowing someone else got there first. Well?
08-23-2000 08:44 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
GraceKel
I don't look at the two shapeshifters (TicTac and Harding) as one
being good and one being evil. I just see them as having there own
agenda's and really not caring too much about the podster's plight.
Now go click an ad.
(hmm-comment on the meter that was put under the sponser's ad---
I'll repeat my senior year's class motto-- Be Excellent!)
From Nebraska
Qfanny!
Remember is not an and is an
08-24-2000 05:23 AM
Lameduck
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
I just want to ask a question. Do we know that it was
Pierce that (supposedly) killed Topolsky? What if it was Tictac that
set the fire. I believe that there are two shapeshifters, but we've
seen that both are capable of killing and they kill easily without
remorse. Since Tictac took Margolin's form and since Margolin hadn't
been to New Mexico, Tictac at some point must have been out East. As
also pointed out above, it almost seems as if someone is helping
Topolsky in Crazy.
Assume that for some reason Tictac wants the orbs to come into play.
He knows that either Liz is going to have the visions or sets it up
that she will have the visions. (As suggested by Michael when
talking to Isabel in his apartment) He also needs to get the other
orb out of the special unit vault, but the special unit has scanners
that prevent someone without human bone stucture form getting in.
But at this time we have a dissatisfied member of the special unit
who is in disgrace (a member of an elite FBI unit who's cover is
blown by two highschool kids) and undergoing interrogation(torture).
I suggest that the events that happened in Crazy were arranged by
Tictac: that he played the FBI, Topolsky, Valenti, and the kids off
against each other. Acting as Margolin he could easily enter the
hospitol and set a delayed fire (as Harding does at the gas station
in MTTM) and either ensured that Topolsky was given a cover in which
to escape or killed to tie up a loose end. Notice that it's
Topolsky's death (?) which pushes Valenti over to the kids' side.
We don't know what powers the adult aliens have but they seem to be
similiar to the podsters. If Isabel can dreamwalk into Pierce's
waking mind and see surface thoughts, I believe a shapeshifter can
as well and that is how Tictac played them all against each other
08-24-2000 08:06 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
QFanny:
Sorry I didn't get back to you ASAP but I am winding up summer
school matters and getting ready to start my sabbatical. BTW--sorry
if you thought I came down on your theory rather harshly. I didn't
mean to at all. Actually, I gave it the same serious attention I
would to a scholarly article. I so enjoy your posts and your
theories.
quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny
LSS: I hope this is the type of post you're looking for. Now, if
my idea was that far out there, I guess no one would be asking me
for further explanation. So as much as I hate you forcing me to
look at this again I'm loving the fact that what I've said looks
important.
Absolutely. It is important. Remember, you are noted for taking a
stand on your interpretations. Your position on Liz (=100% human) is
a good example of this.
quote:
First of all, I want to clear up something. I did not dream up the
switched orbs to explain away Destiny's aftermath. Switched orbs
most likely would alter Destiny, but doesn't mean it WILL alter
Destiny. All I'm trying to argue is that the orbs could have been
switched or sabotaged. That's first and foremost in my mind.
Okay. I suggested that because I don't believe we had an upsurge of
this theory until after Destiny aired (though it was actually
mentioned on the original SF of SH thread--not the actual
switching--but the possibility of theft) But that is simply an
impression that might be totally mistaken. I do remember (as I
stated above) however thinking that the orb was ripe for stealing.
quote:
LSS' quote
We have no narrative indications that the message itself is false:
Qfanny's reply
Narrative is a key word. If you mean the dialog, the script may
not offer any help. But let us not forget that actions, mood,
customer, make-up, lights, direction, editing, delivery, special
effects and music all have a part in the story. Some of the most
important scenes in Roswell, have NO DIALOG whatsoever.
You are totally correct here. I guess I would ask what moves you
from the sinister ambiance provided by the music to the action of
switching orbs--as opposed to, say, the evil intent of the watcher?
quote:
LSS's question
Qfanny--you mention it is a homing device (i.e. the message was
insignificant, the use of the orb was important). I'm not
persuaded of that however, given the fact that Harding apparently
knows of this ramification of the orbs' use and even warns them of
it.
Qfanny's answer
Yeah, I can't get past that either, unless Harding was playing
some reverse psychology.
As you noticed, this remains a problem not easily rationalized away.
quote:
Qfanny's answer
I may have implied that the orbs were switched because of the
message,
No--I understood you to be arguing against this. That the message
was not the issue but that the homing function was.-
quote:
The message may not be fake: even if the orbs are switched! It
could be coming from the "good" orb. (I have already posted a that
I believe the orbs can work independently.)
Just curious--you think that topolsky was honestly in error or that
she was purpostly deceptive on the idea of the orbs working in
Tandem (forgive me if you've stated this before)?
quote:
But LSS, the Dreamer I know you are, I offer you this to consider
under a switched orb premise: I know you'll love the irony! I put
this on the Liz's importance to Alien Mythology a few days ago.
Qfanny said:"I just need to say that fact Liz uncovers the orb the
is critical to the alien's mythology! Max had no recall of this
memory nor did it sound familiar to Michael and Isabel. It's too
bad: for what she recovered eventually caused her to think she had
to leave Max. (Another reason why those orbs could have been
switched--- WE HAVE TO GET RID OF HER.)
.
Yes that is a cruel irony isn't it? Although I do not post very
often on the "Importance of Liz for the Alien Mythology" thread
(just don't have the time, though I often lurk over there) I am very
sympathetic to the theories being developed there.
What you have noticed here is a very nice piece of literary
analysis, QFanny!!! The very thing that Liz helps Max to find
becomes the vehicle through which she feels forced to leave Max.
[Yes, that crash is my heart breaking--and you are right...I am a
dreamer through and through].
QFanny--has anyone ever suggested that the orbs might have been
switched when they were out of Max's control (i.e., when Valenti had
them)? Just curious.
LSS
[Edited by LSS on 08-24-2000 at 08:09 AM]
08-24-2000 08:34 AM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan
Registered: Dec 1999
Well since this is the SciFi thread for the Crazy
episode I will post something that Starstruck found and posted on
Liz Imprt thread because it happened in this episode.
LSS did you notice when Michael goes into the back room locker to
get Marias keys and the orb and Maria comes out and says "you are
going to meet Topolsky right, after everything you said to the
others...." we are watching much of this scene from a camera angle
up the STAIRWELL--------very much like the camera angle from ITTW
when JParker thinks he is witnessing a drug transaction betw Liz and
Maria.
Are we being led to believe that someone is watching them from the
stairwell? Possibility?
08-24-2000 02:04 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel
Well since this is the SciFi thread for the Crazy episode I will
post something that Starstruck found and posted on Liz Imprt
thread because it happened in this episode.
LSS did you notice when Michael goes into the back room locker to
get Marias keys and the orb and Maria comes out and says "you are
going to meet Topolsky right, after everything you said to the
others...." we are watching much of this scene from a camera angle
up the STAIRWELL--------very much like the camera angle from ITTW
when JParker thinks he is witnessing a drug transaction betw Liz
and Maria.
Are we being led to believe that someone is watching them from the
stairwell? Possibility?
GraceKel:
While it it true that it is difficult at times to discern whether
the POV we are seeing is simply from the camera angle (i.e. like
that of a silent narrator) or from the vantage point of an off-stage
character, your above question is related to the issue of how the
FBI and the shapeshifter find out about the meeting with Topolsky.
Some options are:
a) Topolsky told someone--either the shapeshifter or someone who
told the shapeshifter (highly unlikely though when we remember how
paranoid she was); OR
b) Michael told someone (again unlikely given Michael's paranoia);
OR
c) Michael's apt was bugged and they found out that way (this is
actually possible--they do not find out that his apt is bugged until
the next eppy--TLV--so you and I both know that the camera is there
in Crazy). Of course IF the shapeshifter IS NOT working with the FBI
then this option would only account for the FBI knowing about
meeting--but not for the shapeshifter; OR
d) The shapeshifter followed Michael (this would account for the
shapeshifter's presence but not Valenti's--he could hardly follow
Michael with Valenti trailing); OR
e) Someone found the note after Maria left it but before the others
find it. Perhaps it is this "someone's" (the shapeshifter's?) POV
that you are referring to by asking are we seeing this frame from an
off-stage character's viewpoint?????
GraceKel--if it is "d" or "e" above, then it absolves the
shapeshifter from collusion with the FBI. That has always bothered
me in this eppy, for the shapeshifter seems to have a lot of
information (i.e. of Michael's whereabouts--which the FBI obviously
are keeping tabs on).
Only one issue remains, however, and it is a thorny one. If the
shapeshifter is not working with the FBI, then how does he have the
"insider" information concerning the stats on the good doctor? If he
IS working for the FBI then he could have found out when the FBI did
via option "c" and thus would not necessarily been that off-stage
character to whom you are referring.
GraceKel--IF we see this frame from an off-stage character's
POV--any idea whose?
LSS
08-24-2000 02:19 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Lameduck
I just want to ask a question. Do we know that it was Pierce that
(supposedly) killed Topolsky? What if it was Tictac that set the
fire. I believe that there are two shapeshifters, but we've seen
that both are capable of killing and they kill easily without
remorse. Since Tictac took Margolin's form and since Margolin
hadn't been to New Mexico, Tictac at some point must have been out
East. As also pointed out above, it almost seems as if someone is
helping Topolsky in Crazy....
I believe a shapeshifter can [dreamwalk]as well and that is how
Tictac played them all against each other
Hmmmm. I just got finished posting some interpretive options, and
then went back and reread your post in which you actually argue for
another one--that Topolsky and the shapeshifter were working
together at least at the beginning of this eppy. Then, if I
understand you correctly, the shapeshifter abandoned Topolsky (at
least until TLV where he either saved [under cover of the fire] or
killed her). This is an interesting option and would explain how the
shapeshifter had access to both the doctor's stats and to the place
of the meeting.
LSS
08-24-2000 02:22 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
LSS, GraceKel, et al:
I posted the following transcript excerpts on the last page, but
perhaps didn't explain their significance very well. They "prove"
that in the Crazy ep Topolsky had privy to info gathered by
listening in on conversations at Michael's apartment:
quote:
back at Michael's, after Topolsky has appeared to M&L to 'warn'
them, Liz and Alex express their opinions:
LIZ: No, Michael. She was really scared. I believed her.
...
ALEX: Do you really think she's here to warn us?
LIZ: She wasn't the same person she was before. You know, and the
way that she was talking, she seemed like she was just as scared
for herself as she is for us.
ALEX: Then I say we listen.
Later, at Senor Chow's, Topolsky appears to have heard the above
conversation:
TOPOLSKY:...I knew you were the one I could get through to. ...
Later, the agent in the car to Alex:
PASSENGER: Alex? You're Alex Whitman, aren't you? It's ok, Alex.
Topolsky sent me. She knows you'd want to see her...hear what she
has to say.
And, of course later she breaks into Michael's apt. when he's not
there, searching for the orb in the same style she took the papers
from Max's room in...was it 285 South or RD?... then tries to win
his trust when he shows up.
Recall Agent Steven's agressiveness that drove her B&E behavior. The
Special Unit is definitely structured like Hitler's SS. Topolsky
was/is a desperate woman.
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-24-2000 at 02:31 PM]
08-24-2000 04:05 PM
Kim648
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
okay, I have changed my mind yet again!lol
With Topolsky, I do think she was working for the FBI still. She
knew too much. I think they showed the scene in the end with the FBI
picking her up because maybe she was doing something else behind
their back, or she thought they would go easy on them, but it turns
out they won't? Topsolsky could have known what they were thinking
because maybe she won the respect of one of the SS and if you think
they can read minds, maybe they told her. Then Tictac would have
dressed up as the doctor because he had all the information they
needed and didn't want the orb? Maybe the orbs don't work together
and he could careless for the other orb, but he won't tell the
podsters they do, since he doesn't want them to use them, like in
Destiny.
Okay, here's my theory on the orb switching to the end. The orb
switched to get Max to like Tess instead of Liz is a good idea, but
I think all the orb was suppose to do was alert the other 'good'
aliens. Hold on.. Okay, so the orb sent messages to Max who sent
them to Liz to find the orb. When they dig the orb, the light goes
up, this is going to a satelite or something which in return goes to
the aliens little beepers. Maybe the orb had another job to do, but
it was switched(maybe or maybe not) to another object that looked
the same. Now none of the rest is result of the orb. Max likes Tess
because she puts thoughts in his head (yes, I'm a dreamer) and I
think she made Isabel and Michael dream about each other, because
the orb wasn't even close to them, 'their orb' was in the FBI still
and being that far away, it was never effected before, I guess you
can say something about the constellation, but I think the
constellation just alerted Max to find his orb and nothing else.
Okay, I'll kind of shoot ahead, the momogram was a tessovision, it
didn't do anything, Tess just made them see the lines and so on,
like how could it have been so perfect for their personalities, I
know you can say that they had the same personalities in their past
life, but for Michael, for example, I think he wanted meaning in his
life and relative because he lived with Hank. Plus the fact that she
looks like their mother, but I guess the way they made it appear was
look into their memory and get a familiar parental figure. But
anyway, I say that whole thing was Tess' fault, the only thing that
made the podsters said was the fact that Tess was Max's bride, just
what Tess had to put. Oh ya, I forgot about the book I think Tess
just made it, I doubt it was sitting in that exact spot invisibly.
How were they suppose to know what hair styles they would have?
Also, Tess could have made them see it, with Tess' power, anything
is possible!! Remeber in blind date when Isabel makes the burnt rope
disapear? Well I don't think she made it into particles so small
that they were invisible, I think she just made it disapear, isn't
it just a possible to get something that you want to appear? Think
of this made me think of something else, also, before we were
talking about how Tictac got really tired after using his powers and
Harding didn't? Well if you look at the pod squad, Max is the only
one who gets really tired after using his. You can't say it was
because he also went to the WhiteRoom since it was before that. I
have a question though, is Max tired in the Pilot after healing Liz
or Kyle in Destiny? I know he is tired after trying to get Liz's
grandmother to wake up, but I don't have tapes of the other two!!
But, anyway, I'm extremely sidetract!! Okay, now to why all the
beepers went off, it was because the signal came from when they were
digging in SH. You see Howie driving in his car, like he's been
driving for a while and supposably the beeper just went off. So,
anyway, I hope I don't repeat anything I've already written, I've
already forgotten!! The aliens with beepers are good, and they have
the beepers so they can come when the pod squad was ready to do some
mission? I'm not quite sure about the mission part. Maybe their
planet had to be evacuated because their sun was dying, like Liz
saw, so they picked lots of planets to populate. They would have
been in the pods so long because they were in the process of
adapting to the environment. Adapting to be able to mate with
humans..*jumps up and down*..so the rash and hicky so on was normal.
Tess maybe made him see them making out with no side effects so he
wouldn't recognize what happened with Liz.
Well I should go, see you again when I change my mind!!lol
08-24-2000 04:37 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by shapeshifter
LSS, GraceKel, et al:
I posted the following transcript excerpts on the last page, but
perhaps didn't explain their significance very well. They "prove"
that in the Crazy ep Topolsky had privy to info gathered by
listening in on conversations at Michael's apartment:
Shapeshifter:
What is the source of this transcript? Is it a shooting transcript
or the one from the Crashdown episode page? If the later then the
italicized descriptions of actions maybe the interpretation of the
transcriber. If the former, then it is an accurate indication of
authorial intent.
BTW--do you think that the shapeshifter is working with Topolsky?
LSS
08-24-2000 04:52 PM
Starstruck
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
Palomino= You said of the orbs, the message apparently
would not have played unless the four intended podsters were alive
and well and there. Don't forget Liz was also there and it was she
who received messages from the burried orb as to it's location.
Perhaps she is the essential 4th podster to start them up not Tess.
(though I believe Liz is human.)
LSS= You ask if the shapeshifter is not working with the FBI then
how does he have the "insider" information? Hmmm- the walls have
ears. I know thisseems somewhat off the wall (no pun intended) but
Harding appears to have been part of the rock wall in the pod
chamber. Perhaps the SS can infact become the wall.
I've posted this on the Liz Mythology thread and I'll ask it here
too. If the mom-o-gram was a recording how then did she know to
point at Max when she said my son... and then to Isabel my
daughter... There's no way she could have known where they would
have been standing. My husband strongly believes that this was all a
Tess induced message and I'm starting to wonder now myself.
08-24-2000 05:56 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
I had a really nice explanation to one of your questions
and the server dropped me- several times. I'll only be addressing
your first question for right now. That is, if FF will let me.
LSS said:
Sorry I didn't get back to you ASAP but I am winding up summer
school matters and getting ready to start my sabbatical. BTW--sorry
if you thought I came down on your theory rather harshly. I didn't
mean to at all. Actually, I gave it the same serious attention I
would to a scholarly article. I so enjoy your posts and your
theories.
Qfanny replys
Hey, that's ok! I've been obsessed with orbs lately! And I do come
up with some lame brained ideas. And yes, I thought it might be a
busy time for you, but I went through every post I made about my
switch orb idea to write that and I knew you weren't going to let me
off the hook with a wimpy answer. Love it though. I think maybe the
fact that your replys where in BOLD CAPS made it seem more firm than
what it was. Frankly, I'm going to have to cut down a bit on posting
myself. I can't keep up at all. LOL!
LSS asked
What moves you from the sinister ambiance provided by the music to
the action of switching orbs--as opposed to, say, the evil intent of
the watcher?
Qfanny's reply
Back when I was a sweet faced Broadcasting student, I learned a lot
about the importance of camera movement and shot composition. Such
as, the left side is more important in framing than the right side,
the front is more important than the back. Get it? I'm really not
much of a director myself, but I know a good choreography when I see
it. I got an A+ out of my Advance Television Production Class.
(This is the third time I've had to type this, so let's pray it
stays!)
The scene were we find Max, Liz and Shadow is in question. The
camera starts off of Max and Liz and then trucks (as opposed to
pans, a lot more difficult) to the left and we find Liz and Max
sleeping. The camera stops when Jason and Shiri are in the center
back of the shot. They are not the subjects of this scene, they
become the background. Now, when I watch the camera move to the left
(on screen it appears the image is moving to the right), it make me
anticipate the item to be scene. When it stops, my eyes are looking
directly at the orb. Then the sinister flute like music plays, and
the shadow appears, moving from the front left to the center back,
intentionally redirecting my eyes back to our heros, Max and Liz.
Because my eyes go from the orb, (sinister music plays) then shadow
appears, I took this to mean that whatever wants to take away the
orb from Max and Liz.
Wait, I'm not done, because after we have our cutaways, we return to
the desert scene. The shot opens with the orb front and center. Now,
that to me screams "What did he do to the orb while I wasn't
looking."
It may be circumstance, but I know from my former experience in
Broadcasting, writing educational scripts and PSAs, just how picky I
am with my shots and editing. I would think that the Professional
Crew of Roswell would be even pickier than me! After all, they got
to deliver an audience to the advertisers. (hmm-- I think the crew
need there own thread in here.) You cannot waste anytime with
planning a shot while on the production stage. It takes the crew
hours to set up a scene. This was planned in the preproduction, and
I'm guessing that Roswell storyboards in some form. And now that you
know more about me and my educational background, I think you'll be
able to see why I think something happened behind the scenes.
For the love of God please click an ad so this server can be
upgraded!
From Nebraska
Qfanny!
remember is not an and is an
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-24-2000 at 08:03 PM]
08-24-2000 07:50 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999
Shapeshifter what you are saying is that Topolsky
already knew what they were thinking because the apartment was
bugged and that is how she knew that Liz was the one she could
convince and how Pierce later said to Alex "Topolsky sent me..." but
if this is the case then why would she set up a meeting with Michael
in his apartment right in front of the bugging camera device in
which she was entrapped?
LSS as for the SS say we call TicTac can shapeshift into many so who
is to say the person on the stairs could not have been also posing
as FBI agent----and I have one in mind----remember in MttM the FBI
guy who turned around and gave a strange look to the BAT
SIGNAL----well in the WR eppy when Michael shows up to save Max, he
says "BEALS right? Well you picked a hell of a time to show up!!!!"
Yeah just in time to save Max!
I know at first glance at him in MttM when he looks at the bat
signal everyone thinks "EVIL ALIEN" but maybe not hmmmm?
LSS this person(if there is one) on the stairwell could also be just
finding out that something is going on as well-so who knows but I
thought it was worth a mention.
08-24-2000 09:34 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny
For the love of God please click an ad so this server can be
upgraded!
From Nebraska
Qfanny!
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-24-2000 at 08:03 PM]
This was priceless!!! I was seriously working my way through all of
the theories and debates, and this just totally cracked me up!
08-24-2000 10:05 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
LSS asked:
Shapeshifter:
What is the source of this transcript? Is it a shooting transcript
or the one from the Crashdown episode page? If the later then the
italicized descriptions of actions maybe the interpretation of the
transcriber. If the former, then it is an accurate indication of
authorial intent.
BTW--do you think that the shapeshifter is working with Topolsky?
Sorry, I'm afraid the italicized descriptions are my own. The plain
text is from Crashdown. So if you think I've interpreted
incorrectly, you are probably right! (Remember when I was so sure RD
had told Liz to be sure she was worthy of Max instead of the other
way around?)
Regarding ss working w/Topo: I wouldn't yet say there's enough
evidence for that conclusion--but maybe we just haven't noticed it.
But they are definitely barking up, around, and behind some of the
same trees. Kind of like a race to see who gets there first.
quote:
Starstruck wrote:
...If the mom-o-gram was a recording how then did she know to
point at Max when she said my son... and then to Isabel my
daughter... There's no way she could have known where they would
have been standing. My husband strongly believes that this was all
a Tess induced message and I'm starting to wonder now myself.
I don't have it on tape, but if she points, then either it's a
Tessovision, or it's more of a clone than a simple recording.
quote:
Qfanny's description of the SH scene:
The scene were we find Max, Liz and Shadow is in question. The
camera starts off of Max and Liz and then trucks (as opposed to
pans, a lot more difficult) to the left and we find Liz and Max
sleeping. The camera stops when Jason and Shiri are in the center
back of the shot. They are not the subjects of this scene, they
become the background. Now, when I watch the camera move to the
left (on screen it appears the image is moving to the right), it
make me anticipate the item to be scene. When it stops, my eyes
are looking directly at the orb. Then the sinister flute like
music plays, and the shadow appears, moving from the front left to
the center back, intentionally redirecting my eyes back to our
heros, Max and Liz. Because my eyes go from the orb, (sinister
music plays) then shadow appears, I took this to mean that
whatever wants to take away the orb from Max and Liz.
Wait, I'm not done, because after we have our cutaways, we return
to the desert scene. The shot opens with the orb front and center.
Now, that to me screams "What did he do to the orb while I wasn't
looking."
Not knowing about video direction, I never analyzed it like that,
but I definitely got the message that such choreography should have
given. I do have an art background with a lot of attention to
composition, so maybe this is not something everyone would notice?
Qfanny, if most people are missing these subtle clues, is this bad
direction, or a new wave?
quote:
GraceKel asks:
...but if this is the case then why would [Topolsky] set up a
meeting with Michael in his apartment right in front of the
bugging camera device in which she was entrapped?
Perhaps because once again she got caught by her subject and was
trying to make good of a bad moment. Recall that the meeting seemed
to be a trap: after TicTac The Good Dr. sends them away, Topolsky
shows up and falls into her own trap--the Special Unit knew about
the meeting. She appears to have sold herself out in vain hopes of
surviving. But maybe she tipped off the shapeshifter so Michael
wouldn't fall in the trap too.
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-24-2000 at 10:13 PM]
08-25-2000 03:57 PM
Starstruck
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
Qfanny- after reading about your knowledge of shot
composition and camera angles, what do you make of the camera angle
when Michael and Maria are having thier conversation in the back
room of the Crashdown about his meeting Topolsky with the orb? As I
mentioned on the Liz Mythology thread it appears to me as if someone
is watching them from the staircase. Do you think this was done just
for an interesting angle or were we suposed to think someone was
listening in?
08-25-2000 08:58 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Starstruck: I will have to watch Crazy again before I can
answer your question about the camera angle. I do not have it on
tape and where I am at, it didn't run last weekend.
LSS: I'm going to try to post an answer to another one of your
questions.
LSS asked
Just curious--you think that topolsky was honestly in error or that
she was purpostly deceptive on the idea of the orbs working in
Tandem (forgive me if you've stated this before)?
Qfanny's reply
I don't think I've answer this question before. I haven't thought it
through. My gut tells me that she was being honest with Michael
telling him what she knew about the orb. But I am not so sure that
the means in which she received her information were honest ones. I
guess I feel this way because Topoliski was so frantic about warning
the pod squad about Agent Pierce. I don't think that she was doing
this because she wanted to protect them, I think she was doing it in
hopes they would help protect her. When you're afraid for your life,
the bullshit factor tends to fly out the window. The dialog between
her and Michael is key. "Will you take me with you when they come
for you?" Doesn't seem to freak about the fact Michael is an alien
or that she's asking him to take her home to his planet. She's being
brutually confrontational. Michael on the other had response,
"You're crazy." The bullshit response. OTOH, Topolski is a known
liar.
The question she asked Michael really makes me wonder what she's
been told about the aliens and their planet. She obviously believes
she could survive on it. Unless of course, she's so deseperate (sp)
that she hasn't thought that far in advance.
What makes her think that they are coming for the pod squad? Why
does she know more than they do?
More questions--- season two can't start a minute too soon.
Now, go click and ad!
From Nebraska
Qfanny
Remember is not an and is an
08-25-2000 11:03 PM
Tasarz
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 1999
I'm combining some bit of information from Crazy and
TLV...
We know that Michael's apartment was bugged by TLV. To me, there are
two possibilities:
Topolsky bugged the apartment, found the orb, and was going to leave
when Michael showed up. She then decided to lure Michael to Pierce,
and would have suceeded had Nasedo/Tictac not showed up. The last
scene with Topolsky running away from the FBI is either a fake, or
she had a change of heart. From the camera, Pierce knew that the Pod
Squad had the second orb, but assumed they would move it after
Topolsky found it, leading to his asking Max in White Room.
or
Topolsky was looking for the orb in Michael's apartment, unaware of
the camera. The arran