Fanforum - The Science Fiction of Roswell

Fanforum - The Sci-Fi of Destiny

squanto
Administrator Registered: Jan 1999 Posts: 3092
05-15-2000 04:02 PM

Discuss the Sci-Fi aspects of the show here!

MoonFire
Moderator Registered: Nov 1999 Posts: 539
05-15-2000 05:20 PM

Give me a B - B
Give me a U - U
Give me a M - M
Give me a P - P

Whats that spell - well BUMP duh!

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-15-2000 07:33 PM

The season finale opens SF vistas from which those of you who were
unspoiled are no doubt still reeling!

1) OUR SO CALLED PREVIOUS LIVES. We now find out that our four
podsters are not only alien/human hybrids but that they have lived
and died before in a battle on a distant planet. Max (the leader),
Tess (his young bride), Isabel (Max's sister), and Michael (Max's
second in command; Isabel's betrothed)--all of our teens have had
their previous alien essence cloned and mixed with human genetic
material.

Okay--does anyone NOT have questions about this storyline? What is
alien "essence"? Who mixed it with genetic material and when? Where
did they get this material? What does all this mean for our current
teens?

2) THE SAVE THE HOME PLANET MANDATE FROM THE BAD ALIENS. Okay--no
snickering. Now we know that bad aliens captured the home planet and
that our podsters were sent on an intelligence mission to learn what
they could and return to free the home planet. Did anyone else think
this a tad bit grandiose? In the best tradition of space opera, are
we now to be treated to good aliens vs bad aliens with earth as a
backdrop to this struggle? And how are four teens from the backwater
of Roswell to accomplish this? As of now they have an army of
one--Nesedo. What is Nesedo's function? Is he mentor? Or simply a
soldier/protector? Poor Max--who is to instruct him in Leadership
101, or will he "remember"?

3) PAST MEMORIES/PRESENT LIVES. How are we to understand the
relationship of our aliens' present lives to that of their past
lives? Will they remember more and more? Will their human personas
fade into the background while their new mission is clarified? Tune
in next fall...

4) NESEDO AS GREYLING. In the cave as Nesedo was shifting among the
various shapes he had assumed, the audience is treated to his real
shape--that of the traditional alien "greyling". Is this what Max's
people really look like? (Remember the mother explained that she
took the shape in which we saw her so they would be comfortable).
But what happens when it is time for our podsters to go home? Do
they keep their human shapes or get re-cloned?

5) THE BAD ALIENS. We now know the orb/communicators can be used to
easily identify the location of their users. In that last scene
aliens all over the world have been alerted to the orbs' use. And if
that last scene is accurate--was their use detected by a ship near
earth as well?

6) ENDINGS AND BEGINNINGS. The end of a season, the apparent
division of relationships, and a cryptic comment by an unnamed
alien...It has begun.

Uh--Ummm--WHAT has begun?

Well folks...what do you think?

Alienwatcher Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 35
05-15-2000 07:45 PM

First let me say... HIP HIP HURRAY ROSWELL HAS BEEN RENEWED!!!

That said, my first thought is, as discussed in early threads we've
advanced the theory that when Max saved Liz's life he somehow
physcially altered her. Has Kyle now been altered in the same way?

Pleiades Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 596
05-15-2000 07:58 PM

I sobbed I wept...I'm totally with Alienwatcher I like the idea that
maybe Max altered Liz somehow...i want them to be together...M&M
too... I'm not spoiler free but to see it WOW.... we need to
write...Sci -fi. yes...but with our couples intact they somehow make
it work it for me...on top of the sci-fi....

groovygirl Level 5 Registered: Oct 1999 Posts: 1406
05-15-2000 08:09 PM

I also like the idea that Max altered Liz in some way, but I am a
little confused. Why did Kyle not have to look at Max when Max
healed him and why didn't Max see images from Kyle? When Max healed
Liz, he told her that she had to look at him and he got images from
her. Was it different because now his powers are stronger somehow or
because with Liz, it was more intense because he was in love with
her? Anybody have any ideas?

Alienwatcher Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 35
05-15-2000 08:12 PM

I've has an awful time trying to post and haven't been able to. Glad
to see the last one posted.

On the previous thread there was a discussion on the aliens destiny.
Since it was unexpected and not intended for Max, Michael and
Isabelle to be raised by human parents as humans, I think the whole
destiny thing has changed. They may not be as willing to fulfill
their destiny as orginally intended since now they have made
emotional connections to humans. (Tess has none as it was meant to
be) Also, their mother told Max that she sent with him his young
bride from his former life - not that they were destined to be
together. Since they weren't supposed to interact so closely with
humans I think they were paired just so that they would not be
alone. Not that they HAD to be together.

There are so many direction the storyline could go - my head is
spinning with ideas.

Re: the Bad vs Good aliens - we actually don't know who is the good
or bad aliens, just that Max and Isabelle's mother referred to the
others as their enemies. Maybe Max's people will turn out to be the
"bad" aliens.

Good questions as to why their "essence" was cloned into human DNA -
if the real aliens can shapeshift into human form why couldn't
M/M/I/T be cloned alien and still blend into earth? Were they made
human in order to better hide them from their enemies? And if Nasedo
doesn't have human emotions and we are to believe the the home
planet people are the same as Nasedo then why did their mother say
she loved them in the message?
Didn't Nasedo say human emotions were a liabilty? Why then would
they choose to clone them with human DNA? Is it because it's not
possible to clone the alien DNA? Will their emotions change what
their destiny was meant to be? Or was it meant to give them a
different edge from the aliens in the fight? Even if Max is not with
Liz (but I believe they will be together) I don't think he will be
with Tess. Will this make Tess the "scorned" woman and will she
ultimately work to destroy the others?

I know I'm rambling but I'm just throwing out the ideas as they pop
into my head.

Kate6058 Level 5 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 1187
05-15-2000 08:19 PM

So we can finally bring the spoiler board convo here! For those of
you who never visited there... we had the discussion about the
essence of Max Evans time and time again...

Way back when I first heard about the stuff that their mother said,
I hated it, and I hate it even more now that I've heard it for real.
I can't stand the fact that they have lived other lives... that they
had other loves and other everythings... it ruins a lot, I think. I
think the best explanation we came up with on the spoiler board is
that Max and Tess were an arranged marriage and very young when they
died... and that the essence of Max has always been in search of the
essence of Liz and vice versa... it just took some intergalactic
forces to bring these two soulmates together. I'm going to continue
to believe that until I'm told otherwise... I hope that Genie's info
is 50 years outdated and their planet has blown up by now or
something. I will always believe in Max and Liz being true
soulmates... I don't want to believe that Max was ever anyone but
Max. It was never said that they died in battle... the perished in
the war, possibly civilians... maybe they were five year olds and
knew no better.

But they are human now. Nature vs. Nurture... hearing a few words
from their mother's mouth (no matter how convincing they sounded)
can't change a lifetime of a developing personality. Max proved that
for us by pushing Tess away.

I have a possible theory about the hologram of their mother... Was
it really a hologram or did Tess plant the vision?

I hope she did. The orbs were activated, but there is no evidence
that this had anything to do with the hologram. I think it's very
likely that Tess could have put this image there to get who she
wants.... there is more to this girl than we know. If she didn't
plant the image, she could have enhanced it... or all of this could
be wrong and just wishful thinking on my part. But it's a real
possibility.

One thing I did not like... Max, Michael, and Isabel in combat. They
contradicted themselves by giving Max a gun (I was convinced he was
Nasedo Max for a short time) then making the stark contrast between
his healing and Michael's killing. We know that Michael is not truly
evil, though... I hope that's how it remains. This reminds me of
when I read Lord of the Flies a long time ago... the theme of that
book and many others of mankind being innately evil never settled
well with me. I don't see MM&I as warriors.

And I will never see "them" as Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess.
Never.

judycares Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 5
05-15-2000 08:26 PM

I JUST LOVED THE SEASON FINALE!!! It was really cool when all the
bad Aliens got contacted, but there is so much they can still do
with the plotline, besides Max saving the world. We still have Adam,
from Melinda Metz's books, they should hook him up with Tess. (she's
way too whiney for Max anyway-like get a grip girl, the "clone"
doesn't love you, and never will)

Gilthoniel Level 2 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 57
05-15-2000 08:29 PM

OK, questions:

*Was mom live or was she Memorex? They call the devices
"communicators," but the message from Mom seemed more like a
recording than a live communication.

*If it was a recording of some kind from when they were sent to
Earth, what has been going on back on the home planet since then? I
can't believe that they are just sitting around being enslaved,
waiting for Max, et al to come back to the rescue. There must be
some kind of underground or resistence.

*Why have the "bad" aliens come to Earth? Did they follow some of
Max's people? Are they coming to enslave Earth next? Or is Earth
just their version of the Bahamas?

*How is Nasedo/Pierce going to keep the podsters safe? Other people
besides the real Pierce must have been privy to Pierce's
research/conclusions. Will Nasedo/Pierce just say, "Oops, never
mind," and call off the focus on Max & the gang? Doesn't seem very
plausible to me.

*Are they just going back to high school now? How are they going to
explain having been away for at least two whole nights? And how will
Tess explain the sudden absence of a father?

I definitely agree that too much has changed since the plan for the
foursome was made. The "destiny" no longer applies exactly as
planned. I didn't like how quickly Liz gave up. Too quick a change,
considering how committed she was to sticking with him earlier in
the episode.

tepp
Guest Registered: Not Yet Posts: N/A
05-15-2000 08:39 PM

(groovygirl: the answer to your question is obvious; Kyle is not
Max's soulmate so there's no reason for Max to tap into those
"windows of the soul")

(This is the text of an email I just composed to LSS, but since I
saw I could get the board to come up I'm going to try posting it)

LSS

I have to tell you that after watching Destiny, I actually feel
better. I'm sure the board is going to be gridlocked (I just got a
"server is not responding" error), and I doubt I'll even try to copy
any threads or post, but I wanted to tell you what I thought.

Given the storyline and given the way things ended (and we appear to
be stuck with that), that's the way it had to go. Liz had to walk
away. Max has just been burdened with an enormous (superlatives fail
here) responsibility. His whole identity has been turned upside
down; the "world" he knew is gone. As he says himself, "nothing will
ever be the same." Actually, he quickly declares that one thing is
the same. As he also says, he still believes everything he told Liz
in the van about his destiny with her. However, she has to give him
room. She has to let him explore what all this means on his own,
without the responsibility of worrying about her or dealing with her
feelings. And, as I envisoned from the first time I heard of it,
Michael was absolutely right to stop him. It was clear to me from
the expressions on Michael and Isabel's faces when Liz told Max she
had to let him go that they fully understood what that meant to Liz,
to Max, and to them. I've felt since "Max to the Max" that they have
developed a fuller respect and affection for her. They certainly
know what she means to Max just as we do. But Michael was doing what
he was supposed to do, helping his leader see the situation
objectively. Max has to get his s**t together. All of them have to
figure out what they are going to do next, and they have to decide
on their own, for their sakes and for the sakes of their human
friends. It's what has to happen -- now. Later, when they have a
clearer idea of what they need to do and what obstacles and threats
they face, they can look at their entire lives in the new context.
But they've got to establish the context first.

That's my objective response to what I've watched unfold. Now here's
some speculation. I don't really like to just spin the story out in
various directions, to contemplate what might be. I do like to
project possibilities based on solid evidence, on things we've
actually seen and heard. If this were a novel written by a very
careful writer, I'd feel more secure in what I'm about to say. As
I've said before, interpreting a television show is very different
because it is a collaborative effort and is subject to so many
influences, circumstances, and pressures. Nonetheless, I'm going to
offer a scenario that I not only want but that I think is suggested
by the facts. We learned last week that Tess both could and did
cause Max to hallucinate experiences that she created. Tonight we
learned that she can make several people experience the same
hallucination simultaneously. This is important for two reasons.
First of all, this detail was very carefully and pointedly designed
into the story. We were supposed to notice it. As you know, it is
also important because it proves that Tess could have manipulated
all the aliens into seeing what she wanted them to see. Here's where
it gets dicey. other than the sexual experiences Max envisoned with
Tess, I believe that most of the things they saw were not her
concoctions -- they were "real." For example, the communication from
their alien mother was almost certainly real; otherwise it couldn't
have triggered the alien sensors all over the planet. Consequently,
I think that Max was recreated as a human along with a bride . . .
but I don't think that's Tess. I think Tess is lying and for
whatever reason has deliberately assumed a role she knows is not
hers.

I have no idea why she would do this, but there are several aspects
of her character and her behavior that radically distinguish her
from the other three. To put it simply, she doesn't fit. The biggest
difference is her emotional immaturity. She really seems like a
child. It would be difficult for me to go back and analyze every
action that leads me to conclude this, but it's something I'm
constantly aware of. It's evident in almost everything she has done
from the moment she arrived. One clear example is her interaction
with and dependence on Nasedo. Obviously, we could conclude that
this results from the way she was raised, but I think it's much more
than that. Michael had a totally different upbringing from Max and
Isabel, and it shows. However, he is vastly more like them than Tess
is. Whereas all three of our aliens have always seemed to have what
is termed "old souls," she's a petulant, willful, spoiled brat with
little appreciation of the reality of their situation. Compared to
Liz, who immediately understands the gravity of what's going on,
Tess responds in a typically selfish and self-absorbed manner. All
she can think to do as soon as Max has heard this earth-shattering
revelation about his past life, his planet, and his family is to try
focus his attention on her and her little romantic fantasy. She
really expects that he is going to instantly embrace and accept her.
As anyone with any perspective at all would know, this is the
furthest thing from his mind. She's practically giggling while his
universe is falling to his feet (by the way, I didn't see the method
for activating the orbs as you did. There was no explicit indication
that the couples had to each be holding an orb together. For all we
know, MMI could have activated them by themselves).

Her behavior is not the only indication we've been given that she
doesn't belong in this picture somehow. As we've all often
discussed, she is so physically different from the others.
Interestingly, she was shown several times in this episode standing
with Liz, and even Liz towered over Tess by a head or more. Shiri
Appleby is not very tall, and I suspect it took a little "movie
magic" to create such an extreme contrast. I can only conclude that
like almost all details, this one was intentional and important. I'd
also like to remind you that in one of my very first posts on the
spoiler board, I pointed out the significance of the characters'
names. Max, Michael, Isabel, Maria, Alex, and Liz all have names
that most people with an average education could associate with
either historical or biblical figures -- all of whom were either
rulers or intermediaries between Heaven and Earth. If "Tess" is such
a name, it's significance is not readliy apparent to me. I don't
even know what if anything it's "short" for.

I suspect that if Tess is lying about anything, it's about her
origins. We already knew that the "memories" that MMI had of their
"birth" after Tess arrived suddenly contradicted the memories of
those events they had described before. There's only two
explanations for this discrepancy. One is that the writers commited
a fairly serious breach of continuity. The scene between Max and Liz
in "Balance" when he describes their emergence from the cave was far
from a throwaway. It provided the "long story" that Max had allude
to in "Morning After," and it gave us our first real understanding
of how Michael and MI ended up as they did both in terms of their
circunstances and their complex relationships. The importance of
this scene makes it hard to believe that the writers would just
casually disregard it. More importantly, Max's original version is
supported by the visions in the healing ceremony, as Max and Isabel
are repeatedly shown helping Michael emerge from his cocoon. Indeed,
unlike the ceremony performed for Nasedo, the one for Michael
essentially reenacts the original rebirth.

Consequently, I think it's quite possible that Tess is lying about
who and what she is. I think a lot of evidence suggests that she
planted the revised version of the trio's emergence in their minds.
We certainly know she

reg
Guest Registered: Not Yet Posts: N/A
05-15-2000 08:39 PM

Alienwatcher Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 35
05-15-2000 08:39 PM

RE: the 50 years - Maybe time is different on the home planet. 50
years here is like a month there.

Gilthoniel - you're right, the message was pre-recorded so they
weren't actually communicators. And you're also right in that they
can't exactly go back to life as usual - so what's going to happen.
And Liz was just thrown. To much to absorb at once. They are
soulmates and neither Max or Liz will be able to walk away from each
other. But Tess will throw in as many road blocks as she can, I'm
sure.

JanetMG Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 215
05-15-2000 08:56 PM

quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
1) OUR SO-CALLED PREVIOUS LIVES. Okay--does anyone NOT have
questions about this storyline?

2) THE SAVE THE HOME PLANET MANDATE FROM THE BAD ALIENS. Okay--no
snickering.

3) PAST MEMORIES/PRESENT LIVES. How are we to understand the
relationship of our aliens' present lives to that of their past
lives?

4) NESEDO AS GREYLING.

5) THE BAD ALIENS. We now know the orb/communicators can be used to
easily identify the location of their users. In that last scene
aliens all over the world have been alerted to the orbs' use. And if
that last scene is accurate--was their use detected by a ship near
earth as well?

1) Tons of questions--no answers. Not even any educated guesses from
tonight's show.

2) Too late, I'm snickering. I didn't even pick up on the
intelligence mission part--it wasn't clear to me why they were sent
to earth or reconstituted (reminds me of Tang) as humans, just that
they had to learn/use their knowledge, powers & leadership to save
their people. On the plus side, Alien Mom didn't say anything about
acting like bunnies. Backwater of Roswell--reminds me of a certain
backwater burb called Tatooine (If so, congrats LSS--you found an
allusion to Star Wars they forgot to make). As for Nacedo, I hope
the Unit doesn't have any more those special security systems that
require human bone structure. I also hope he has the power to make
every other member of the Unit forget all the MM&I interaction
they've had over the past week.

3) Again, they really didn't give us much to speculate with here.
Frankly, I'm not sure the writers have come to any conclusions yet.

4) My gut reaction--the worst kind of sci fi--special effects for
the sake of having special effects and not a major part of the
storyline. Given what was said last week about their anatomy & lack
of shapeshifting ability (despite Michael's fingerprint trick--small
area, short period of time), my guess is they'd keep their shapes.

5) I missed the ship--are you referring to the skyline shot &
suggesting it was from a ship? The closed captioning said something
about overlapping beeps. I thought it was an attempt to let us know
that there are a lot of others out there. Do we know that they are
all evil?

I don't know why my initial reaction is so cynical. I feel like they
went out of their way to give answers that were purposely vague so
that they could interpret them after they decided where they want to
go next season.

As for Kyle, I wondered about the same things alienwatcher &
groovygirl. My guess is that they are connected--Assuming Liz has
been changed, my guess is that Kyle has not been altered because he
& Max didn't have the strong two-way connection Max & Liz formed--no
visions or flashbacks. I think an altered Kyle would be interesting
(& is possible), but I suspect it was more a plot device to cement
their bond w/Valenti & a lead-in to the Max-good Michael-bad
conversation (which reminded me a little of GraceKel's theory on the
last thread).

Finally, is the spoiler board safe now? If there aren't any spoilers
for next season, could some one post the link(s) for the spoiled sci
fi threads? Can you browse titles to find the right ones w/o seeing
spoilers for Buffy or Angel?

Kate6058 Level 5 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 1187
05-15-2000 08:58 PM

tepp -- You post completely overwhelmed me I'm going to attempt to
reply and agree with you on the idea of Tess not being who she
thinks she is or has the right to be. I've been bothered by her
obvious physical differences from the start... I don't think that
the writers or casting people could have intentionally cast someone
so different from Jason, Katherine, and Brendan. Maybe it wasn't
their original intention to choose the aliens so close in height,
eye color, etc., but surely they have adapted to the idea that MM&I
are overpowering and intimidating because of the physical qualities
they share.

Tess may be living a lie. She has been with Nasedo, who told her the
same story we heard from the hologram tonight, and has known nothing
else. It's possible that she put herself in the place of Max's young
bride, that she has herself convinced that this is her position and
she has every right to push Liz out of the picture for it. It seems
that there is solid evidence to back all of this up... the visions
of the pods with Tess there with MM&I, but how can we trust this?
Now that we know of Tess' power to manipulate people's minds, can we
trust anything again?

This is where I disagree with you, tepp. I don't think the
activation of the orbs necessarily had anything to do with the
appearance of the hologram. Tess could have used this opportunity to
make the image of their mother appear, further complicating the lie
she is living and making things harder on the other three,
especially Max. The orbs are what signaled the orbs of the other
aliens... I know that there could be a connection, but there is the
possibility that Genie Francis was a figment of Tess' imagination.

If this isn't the case at all, and the audience is supposed to
believe everything they saw for what it was onscreen, then the
writers made a huge mistake in giving Tess this power. I will never
trust another vision again, unless it's one of love between Max and
Liz. We know that Tess can get into any number of heads from any
location... so how can we believe anything for sure?

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-15-2000 09:16 PM

That episode was just so quick-when it is all going at such a fast
pace-it can get to be too much don't you think! I don't like Sci Fi
just for SciFI's sake-I like there to be a real purpose to it! It
was left very open ended wasn't it!

I can only repeat what I have said on other threads either the whole
mother hologram is a hoax (in some ways I must admit I think they
are boxing themselves in with this story unnecessarily-you can still
have action without this big mandate-so I remain unconvinced that
this is a good idea-I will still take the ride)!

The other is that the mother's destiny was true but it was Tess's
playing her vision tricks that incerted herself as one of them and
she is not really one of them! This could lend itself to the fact
that Liz was actually Max's bride (story still needs to be flushed
out though) No names were mentioned by the mother it is not like she
said your young bride Tess or Micheal for that matter!

I am still liking my theory about Michael and Tess and Nasedo being
from the same group only thank God that Michael got away from
them-tonights ep made me feel sorry for Michael wondering whether he
was bad! This could be quite a big story for Michael-and he would be
overcoming so much. I am not blindly throwing this out there I
watched all my episodes over and over to come to this conclusion and
think there is evidence that supports it.

One thing in the mothers hologram that did strike a chord with me
was that she said that they would have to discover the EVIL WITHIN
and this EVIL could be closer than they realize-Tess? Nasedo?

Kate6058 Level 5 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 1187
05-15-2000 09:32 PM

GraceKel, it looks like a lot of people think that Genie Francis
came out of Tess' mind.

I forgot to say something in my other post. I'm sure you all
remember when we talked about Liz maybe being alien or something
like that so she would fit in Max's destiny. I'm pretty sure the
theory was that the essence of Liz was recreated into Liz Parker...
that humans and aliens aren't all that different. There was a lot of
discussion about human/alien hybrids being created for hundreds of
years, and that maybe Liz, in her current form, is one of those.
This also ties in with Liz being changed as a result of the
connection with Max... is all of this still a possibility? Could Max
find out that Liz was really the one in his destiny all along?

I have a feeling that we've all read into this too much. But I can't
help it... they have given us way too much to think about!

redhawk Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 110
05-15-2000 09:33 PM

The discrepancies in physical attributes between Tess and M/M/I has
been bothering me for awhile also. I don't think the casting
director could have been sleeping that day, do you? There has to be
more to this.

I really enjoyed the ep, but was a little disappointed in their
choice of using a 'grey' as the 'real' shape of Nasedo. I kept
thinking "how hokey". I don't mind the writers using some standard
scifi conventions, but this was too much.

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-15-2000 09:41 PM

A short comment on two issues that have been raised:

1) KYLE: As to the question of whether or not Kyle has been
"changed" -- just a thought--On a previous SF thread we spoke of the
possibility that when Max "reversed" the connection he had made with
Liz he created a rather unique situation that may be the reason why
Liz can now receive flashes from Max (poor Liz--to get to see Max
tortured). Perhaps this and the emotional and physical links that
have been forged since the healing have also contributed to the M/L
special bond.

In other words--it is not just healing that connects people. If that
were so then Michael and River Dog would be connected. So would Max
and Michael!

2. THE SAVE THE WORLD MANDATE. Kate you know how I would LOVE for
that to be a fake. I emphatically do NOT like its implications and
it stretches the credibility of the audience beyond belief--but WHY
would it be fake? What would it accomplish? To bring Max and Tess
together? If that is Tess' idea then this is a bit of overkill isn't
it? The message could have been just about their destiny as couples
not as superheroes of their solar system!

We all know what function the "young bride" part of the message
has...what is not clear is what function does the save the planet
message have? WHY would Tess have implanted that? Give me a good
answer to this question and I'll start considering the theory (it
does have merits if you can get beyond the issue of function).

LSS

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-15-2000 09:45 PM

Kate6058 could Max discover that Liz was suppose to be his destiny?
My answer is "I only know the one I am hoping for!"

I still think we have to tie in GRANDMA,HUBBLE'S WIFE-they just
don't give us enough to work with yet but they have thrown out these
little clues!

Can I just add did anyone else want to throw Tess out of the jeep
when Liz says to her, "you can make people see things that aren't
really there?" and Tess says "it is easier to get people to see
things that aren't really there than it is for them to see what is
right in front of them!" I took this to mean that she was saying
that Liz was blinding herself to her and Maxs destiny together! Yuk!
Did you see how she was always trying to keep them away from the
humans and even Nasedo "She doesn't belong here!" I do not see how
anyone does not see something cold and calculating about them!

Kate6058 Level 5 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 1187
05-15-2000 09:50 PM

LSS -- You know what... I can't give you one. But I can go back to
one little thing I mentioned... maybe the hologram's appearance did
coincide with the orbs connection, and Tess only altered the vision
with her mind. I have no idea if she has seen this message before...
she obviously knows what is supposed to be going on, so she has the
motive to change the vision. It's not that I necessarily think that
she thought up the idea of Max having a mate arranged for him, but
that she put herself in that place and somehow made MM&I think that
too (but that's only in the case of this theory where Tess doesn't
create the vision, only changes it).

I'm going to stop now, because I can't back myself up. I just can't
stand the idea that there is such an inhuman side to Max. I need a
better explanation for it...

But LSS, even if all the things said in the hologram are true, I
still think that the writers made a mistake in giving Tess this
power. I don't know what to trust anymore.

GraceKel -- Yes, I would have liked to have thrown Tess out of the
jeep at that point. Actually, it would have been better to have
thrown her out when it was moving at high speeds... but anyway...
what she said to Liz was made worse when she used the pronoun "she"
and "right in front of her face" or whatever she said. I wish Liz
would have at least given her a glare.

[This message has been edited by Kate6058 (edited 05-15-2000).]

db Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 399
05-15-2000 09:54 PM

Can someone explain me how nasado is going to take pierce place in
the FBI-isn't he still missing that key ingredient-skeleton to get
pass those nifty scanners. and what story could he tell to his
'superiors' to get the special unit off of our gangs back-after all
the fbi still has all that proof from maxs stay there-unless
he(nasado) loses it but even that hard to do

nasado as pierce will he save the missing 4th alien(remember the fbi
captured 2 alive-one being nasado-and 2 dead)

and if nasado is off in the wild blue yonders of FBI land how is he
going to protect our gang and train them? and what happens to tess?
does she stay in the house by herself putting up the front of still
living with her father?

also the orbs-was it just me or did they not cut them off which is
why the other bad aliens are going to be able to find them next
season

TexasPride Level 2 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 75
05-15-2000 10:12 PM

I really don't think Liz's body has been changed or anything like
that. After the accident in the jeep she too was looked at by a
doctor and by then there would have been the physical changes
noticed in blood samples etc but that didn't happen. I think its
just a matter of Max has had a crush on her a long time .. he was
raised as a human and on many levels has the same emotions as any
other human. Given that he is now torn between the biological
preprogrammed sexual attractive to his alien preordained mate, Tess,
and his genuine and deep love and affection for his a Liz (the
human) I think he is very torn at the moment about who he is and
what side does he want to give in to. His human side.. or is alien
side. I don't think Liz's body having had gone through a sudden
internal mutation is likely. There's no reason for her physical body
to have to change inorder to be with him. He isn't superman, he's
just very highly intuned with the percentage of brain that normal
earthlings do not use. If he'd changed her.. that would make her
somehow less human and that defeats the whole purpose of the
alien/human aspect. To me anyway.

Sublime Muffin Level 6 Registered: Nov 1999 Posts: 1945
05-15-2000 10:27 PM

(quote from Judycares)-"like get a grip girl,"

Maybe she should get a grip-guy. Is Henry single?

I wonder if Kyle will be in love with Max now. It would be funny if
he just felt "oddly" close to him.

SM

SorBear Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 20
05-15-2000 10:31 PM

I agree with most of the speculation that has been expessed so far
on the board especially the possibility that Tess tampered with the
message from "Mom."

One thing is bugging me though. Just how exactly does Nasedo intend
to throw off the Special Unit now that they have gotten so close?
Also, how is he supposed to get in and out of the facility since he
has no skeletal structure? And will the agents just not bother to
look around the high school now? Hrmm..guess the writers will need
the summer to think their way out of that.

Still, a great episode and a terrific season.

SorBear

SorBear Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 20
05-15-2000 10:36 PM

I agree with most of the speculation that has been expessed so far
on the board especially the possibility that Tess tampered with the
message from "Mom."

One thing is bugging me though. Just how exactly does Nasedo intend
to throw off the Special Unit now that they have gotten so close?
Also, how is he supposed to get in and out of the facility since he
has no skeletal structure? And will the agents just not bother to
look around the high school now? Hrmm..guess the writers will need
the summer to think their way out of that.

Still, a great episode and a terrific season.

SorBear

SorBear Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 20
05-15-2000 10:38 PM

I agree with most of the speculation that has been expessed so far
on the board especially the possibility that Tess tampered with the
message from "Mom."

One thing is bugging me though. Just how exactly does Nasedo intend
to throw off the Special Unit now that they have gotten so close?
Also, how is he supposed to get in and out of the facility since he
has no skeletal structure? And will the agents just not bother to
look around the high school now? Hrmm..guess the writers will need
the summer to think their way out of that.

Still, a great episode and a terrific season.

SorBear

starcat Level 2 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 61
05-15-2000 10:49 PM

Kate 6058:

I was really intrigued by your first post...Max and Tess being an
arranged marriage and his essense finding Liz's...I did dabble in
spoilers but I chose to stop last month..

Lss raises so many questions that I will be considering and
hopefully responding to in the days to come...but as you all stated,
without an episode for the next 4 months we could literally drive
ourselves crazy with the possibilities...

I also thought Tess may have manufactured the image but liked TEPP's
amazing take on Tess much better...maybe Max's bride did not survive
the incubation process and was replaced or corrupted by the 'bad'
aliens??? OR maybe Tess is the offspring or planted spy of the enemy
(calling them bad is starting to feel ridiculous)..

I also wanted to point out, as LSS did, that Liz had another
vision....she is definitely connected to Max and possibly altered in
some way....Max and Isabelle's mother spoke of finding their enemy
(I believe) by seeing the evil inside of them....could this be where
Liz's new found ability comes in handy, remember she did see into
Nasedo?? She may come to help the 4 by possibly seeing the evil that
the 'alien' mom spoke of....just a theory..

A quote I heard and would like to share in reference to Max and Liz:

True love cannot be found where it does not truly exist,
Nor can it be hidden where it truly does...

Sage Registered: May 2000 Posts: 22
05-15-2000 10:51 PM

Now we know� the pod squad was cloned. But the idea of these
particular individuals having lived before really doesn�t hold true.
Those kids standing in that cave didn�t actually have previous
lives� their DNA did� well, sort of� because it was mixed with human
DNA. So, in actuality they are very different from their
other-worldly counterparts. Not to mention the fact that they were
raised in a completely different culture� heck� planet for that
matter.

Of course, cloning not only occurs in labs, but frequently in
nature� consider identical twins. Are identical twins identical
beyond their DNA? Not really. Do we consider them to be individuals
or one person. Obviously, they are individuals� with individual
personalities, likes, dislikes� the usual freewill stuff. Now,
consider how our Roswell friends were engineered� frankly they
wouldn�t even qualify as actual clones. They are more like hybrids.
And, even if they were cloned identically (which according to their
mother they aren�t), well, they simply aren�t the same individuals�
not even close, considering their environmental differences (which
we have to assume are tremendous).

Of course, this is alien DNA (ala Hollywood), so we have no way of
knowing what rules apply. Being technologically advanced, could they
not only clone DNA but also personalities? Of course, we�ve never
seen it on this planet (even with all the countless number of
identical twins born to any number of species), but hey� what the
heck�

All I know is� if someone came knocking at my door and told me,
�Oops� you were cloned and, well, you now have to assume the
personality of the host of your original DNA�� I wouldn�t exactly be
jumping for joy. Would I obediently comply? Gee, I know I�d be
confused, hurt, frightened, and angry. But, in the final analysis, I
would probably tell them to go bug-off� because, luckily, it�s MY
life this time around� not the former host of my DNA.

The great thing is, this situation does make excellent fodder for
conflict and plot lines. Any way you look at it, it will be very
interesting to see what the writers do with it next season�

Excellent show.

Sage

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-15-2000 10:53 PM

Well, it was definitely awsome, whether or not Nasedo/Pierce has a
fingerprint to get back into the FBI special unit.
Did anyone else think from the look on Max's face that he suspected
that they might be resurrecting the enemy in Nasedo? Also, the
shortness of the 'hologram' from Mom leaves it open to being a
vision of Tess's.
A tv show, like a series of novels of undetermined length, needs to
have room to grow and change--unlike, say, a simple triology.
Regardless, the writers have given Max a leader role from the start,
and he seems to have chosen his bride...and it's not Tess. By the
way, Tess is also the name of the head Angel on the Touched by an
Angel series (which had a similarly shaky start on the networks as a
tv show).
Does anyone else wonder if Tess and Nasedo are really more of
husband/wife than father/daughter?
One last thing, my still genious-IQ (no LSD) daughter suggested that
Michael, as a chronically insubordinate second-in-command, might
have helped caused his team to lose on the other planet. But I also
like the idea of Michael as an evil alien turned good by virtue of
conscience. Maybe Kyle can have some effect on Tess (if necessary).

axiablue Level 2 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 55
05-15-2000 11:01 PM

Alienwatcher- You brought up a good point (along the lines of what I
was thinking). Why did they have to be mixed with HUMAN DNA? I am
sure that they could have been cloned as they were, but maybe being
human makes them stronger than the originals were. After all, Nasedo
tells Michael his powers ARE in being human. Also, if they don't
have emotions, why did their "mother" tell Max and Isabel she loved
them?
Why is Max so ready to trust Nasedo when all along Max was the one
having doubts about Nasedos intentions. I think that there is the
possibility that everything was engineered by Tess, which would be
VERY interesting if proven true.

Gilthoniel- You asked about how the bad aliens got there. I remember
the mother saying aomething about the bad aliens being on Earth.
Strange, because if this is pre-recorded, this means that the home
planet knew that the bad guys were already there. This risks the
"clones" lives by sending M/M/I there in the first place because
they could easily be killed before even reaching adulthood. I mean a
whole planet lost against these bad aliens and yet they send four
clones with four guardians???

Another speculation.... I think that there are five bad aliens....
Howie D had some kind of instrument that had a pentagon...Four
lights went off in different cities plus himself equals five....If
there are more bad aliens than that, why did the home planet only
send the four of them (M/M/I/T) to do recon and then go back and
save the planet?? Why not send more of them? Doesn't it leave the
good guys seriously outnumbered?

Also, why has Nasedo said NOTHING about what caused the crash in the
first place?

Still think there is something VERY wrong with Tess.......look
forward to getting some answers next season....

[This message has been edited by axiablue (edited 05-15-2000).]

shikastaDuNuit Registered: May 2000 Posts: 4
05-15-2000 11:07 PM

I am going to have to wade through the previous reponses cause you
all seem to have some pretty good things to say.

I however would like to pose one question - we assume that the SS is
a goodie but I think he is a baddie. Doesn't anyone find it odd that
he can Shape Shift but our podsters can't. I mean if you were going
to send a protector wouldn't you send one of your own kind? I feel
there is something afoot and it will be interesting to see what
direction it takes!

Also I would like to know where the human DNA came from????????

One answer to the 'bad aliens on earth' question: One reason could
be that they are a race that basically travel from planet to planet
enslaving the population of those planets not unlike the borg in
Star Trek or the Sliders Gomags, but the question is then why aren't
we enslaved yet?

tanchel Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 10
05-15-2000 11:11 PM

tepp,

I agree with much of your analysis and I noticed something in
tonight's episode that supports your Tess as a kind of child theory.
When Tess greets the resurrected Nasedo, he responds with a "you
aren't ready to be alone." I found that very pointed somehow. For a
split second, I thought that comment was completely directed at her.
After all, the other three have been 'alone' for some time now, and
frankly, they've done okay, if not spectacularly.

In speculating on possible developments from here, I wouldn't be at
all surprised to discover that Tess was of that other alien group.
You're right: she looks and acts so differently from the other
three. What, the home planet thought about throwing in some blond
ringlets and bright blue eyes for fun? So she could be manipulating
the vision from Mom, to implant herself in there. If our three are
supposed to learn all they can about the enemy, why wouldn't that
enemy have a similar intelligence gathering agenda? And, since we
don't know if the enemy aliens used similar cloning techniques, Tess
could be more like Nasedo than the humans, which would explain her
emotional states and why her humanity is so less developed/more
childlike in comparison.

And I think there's some other unknown purpose for using human DNA.
I wouldn't be shocked to learn that there is something in their
human sides and relationships that ends up vital to the 'save the
planet' mission, and Tess could be sent in simply to prevent those
human bonds from solidifying.

CosmicGirl Level 4 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 572
05-15-2000 11:11 PM

Hmm so much to talk about

1) I think Nacedo is just gonna close the operation as Peirce it was
Deep cover any way according to Topolski. He won't have to use the
hand print he will just send everyone home and be done with it..
Peirce was obviously some obsessed sicko.

2) Yes there is still a posiblitly that Tess altered what ALIEN MOM
was saying as we have Now learned she can do this to several people
at once..

3) I agree the physical differences between Tess and the others is
odd. Especially the Blue eyes. I thought I heard it was scripted
that they all were supposed to have the same eyes.

4)PROBALLY MOST IMPORTANT...
The fact that Souls can not be cloned....
Some people believe in reincarnation... and if Max is reincarnated
perhaps his soul is not the alien soul, but a reincarnation of
someone in his human side.. AND HIS Soul has traveled great
distances to be back with his soulmate LIZ. Some People believe that
many of the details of your next life is revealed to you so you can
choose if this is a lesson you need your soul to learn, and that you
sort of know already but forget with the Trauma of birth.

4A) If you don't believe in reincarnation..then perhaps things are
very culturly different on their WORLD and maybe they don't choose
Mates for Love THE WORD BETROTHED seems to imply ARRANGED MARRAGE.
SO how can we be sure Max Loved Tess or even LIKED HER AT ALL for
that matter.

5) another important point.
The Aliens that created them CAN NOT be the choosers of another
persons DESTINY! Who the heck are they to say what Max and everyone
are destined to do. They can only ask them to do it... WHICH it
seems to be what ALIEN MOM DID.

I seem to remember another person going on about DESTINY and he was
also wrong..

Darth Vader: "JOIN ME AND WE WILL RULE THE EMPIRE TOGETHER"
Luke Skywalker: "NO!"
Darth Vader:"LUKE IT IS YOUR DESTINY!"
Luke: NO
or something like that.

It was Luke's destiny to destroy the emperor but not in the way
VADER thought..

Luke chose his own DHARMA (the path to destiny) and the EMPEROR was
over turned but in away that Luke chose passive resistance.
" I will not turn and you will be forced to kill me"
Luke showed his father the light of the force and the he could not
behr to see his son destroyed.

6) Dharma the path to destiny...
Destiny your contribution to the universe
If your supposed to work with people and help them out you do
that... How you do that is your choice your DHARMA.. your path to
destiny.. So you might be a NURSE A TEACHER,
a Social worker or a waitress any job of service to others. You
choose it.

If Max is supposed to save his planet, How and if Liz is involved is
entierly up to him and Liz..

7) Max has said on a few occasions that he was RAISED human... The
aliens did not take HUMAN contact into account, nor the crash
itself. So who they are has been affected by their lives on earth..
If Iz ever loved Michael in a romantic way It could be changed by
the fact that she grew up thinking he might be another one of her
brothers. Instead of knowing that he wasn't!

Phewww do I have anything else to say?? I am sure I'll think of
something but I will stop now at lucky 7

shikastaDuNuit Registered: May 2000 Posts: 4
05-15-2000 11:20 PM

OK someone on this thread earlier mentioned going back in time etc
to stop the future, in the quick squiz I had could not find that
darn section so apologies to that person.

Anyhows continuing on that train of thought with the whole idea of
going back in time to prevent what will happen in the future is it
not plausible that we are in fact the bad aliens which would explain
the whole earth thing and why the podsters were not supposed to mix
with humans - however, in saying that I am sure the SS would have
mentioned that little fact unless he is also unawares. The present
humans are not the bad aliens but future humans who came back in
time to search for the survivors who were to save their race. And if
we believe the whole end of the world, dawning of the next stage of
human evolution theories that get thrown around then the future
humans could appear different. My god I am getting seriously into
the 'Terminator' storyline here apologies but it is just a
thought!

Sage Registered: May 2000 Posts: 22
05-15-2000 11:29 PM

LSS... I know what you mean about the "save the world" notion... it
had me twitching...

Oh well... I'm just going to assume that there are ulterior motives
all over the place, and that Tess and Nasedo are engineering
something on their own...

Sage

(Sage now skipping off to bed, blissfully unaware of any residual
twitches.)

TonyR Level 2 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 74
05-15-2000 11:31 PM

A few things:

1) I remain puzzled by everyone's incessant Tess bashing.

I see Nasedo as a kind of tough bodyguard, sent to Earth with the
pod squad to keep them from harm. He was chosen for his
ruthlessness, and people, including MM&I, have mistakenly presumed
that his aggressiveness is representative of their parent race. (I
can't imagine that the squad's race are the bad guys.)

Tess was raised by Nasedo, separated from the others. Like Michael,
Tess didn't have a great family to nurture her, not even the other
members of the squad, as was intended. From everything that we've
seen, she and Nasedo didn't have a warm and fuzzy relationship.

I think that is the framework in which we have to evaluate Tess. I
agree with everyone that she seems more selfish and aggressive than
the others, but I think she feels more insecure and more alien then
they do, and this is partly behavior that she learned from Nasedo.
Given all of this, I think that her behavior fits. She genuinely
feels a desparate need to belong, and a strong desire to be with
Max. She wasn't raised with humans, and can't even imagine a
relationship with one, and that just leaves Max and Michael for
potential partners...

I think Tess is good for the mix, a good wild card. I don't think
any of us know just how she'll fit in. It leaves lots of
possibilities for the writers to work with for next year's episodes.
That's good.

2) Regarding the somewhat outrageous plot twist that we now have,
with our good aliens having to fight bad aliens and eventually
somehow save the mother planet--well, I just see it as a challenge
that the writers have set for themselves for next year. It certainly
will be interesting to see how they pull all of this together and
keep the human drama and romance in the show, which I think most of
us agree is what makes the show special. Given everything that I�ve
seen written about the show, I think everyone knows that this is
what making the show successful, and I�m confident that they are
going to do make every attempt to preserve this.

3) How are they going to fight the bad guys and get back to the
mother planet? Who knows. Fortunately it isn't our problem, it's
theirs! And I'm assuming they will have a few years to solve it (of
course I assume the show is going to be on a good 5 years or so).
I'll bet the squad's human friends will be instramental, and that
the sheriff will be a key ally. They will definately be sharepening
their powers, as their mother instructed, and they will play a major
role in the struggle.

To get back to their home planet, maybe the bad guys have ships and
our friends can capture them, or maybe there is one stashed in
Roswell for their future use, like the communicators were. Special
effects like space ships cost money, but if Katim and crew can
scrape that up, add the effects, and keep the human drama, more
power to them. Sounds like fun to me!

Next year certainly will be interesting. Yes, given the outrageous
setup that they gave it with Destiny it is going to be hard to keep
it all going, but they've done a great job so far, and I have great
confidence that they will keep the show going strong.

TonyR

hurdler Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 29
05-15-2000 11:48 PM

Kate6058, those were almost the same problems I had with the
pre-recorded message.
What if that planet is obliterated?? Why waste your time fighting
for it or making your life more of a hassle before you know for
sure?

Also I agree about the "essence" part I don't think a person's soul
can be cloned, just like with Dolly the sheep, I don't think her
clone would have the same personality or life experiences, hence the
destinies will be different.

So there's no need to worry about Max, Iz, Michael and Tess'other
lives, because they never lived them. It was truly other characters.

I also had a question, are they supposed to fight the enemy aliens
on Earth? Is that what their mother said for them to do? or are they
supposed to watch out for them and be on the defensive?

And did the mother explain why there were placed on Earth? does
earth have some really "intelligent beings" that can help them?

I hope they explain it better next season. I loved this episode
despite some of the questions I had about the sci-fi aspect.

Aeneas Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 22
05-16-2000 12:13 AM

Couple of more questions.

Why leave a message/recording that will alert the "enemies" that it
was viewed? What is typically when sending sending secure
communication is to hide it in the noise.

Why clone a leader who was killed? Why not engineer
someone/something that can't be killed? Why wait 50 years to find
out if the experiment has worked?

MEP Level 2 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 85
05-16-2000 12:21 AM

OK, I'm still too busy snickering to really post anything insightful
and coherent (not that I necessarily do that when I'm NOT
snickering), but I just had to say that I really like the theory
that Tess is somehow orchestrating a hoax and that the "hologram" is
something she created. Particularly since we now know that she can
simultaneously induce the same vision in more than one person (there
was no need to have her manipulate two agents at the same time, so I
suspect there really IS a reason why we were told about this ability
- great point, tepp, although I obviously disagree with you on the
rest of it).

WHY would she do this? Well, I think this is where the physical and
phsychological discrepancies between Tess and the others might come
into play. Perhaps she isn't who she claims to be? Perhaps she's
trying to not only get Max into bed but use all of them against the
allegedly bad aliens, who may not be bad at all? Perhaps... hell, I
don't know, but there are plenty of conceivable reasons.

The real problem is whether Nasedo is also involved with the
deception or not. If he is, then the conversation he and Tess had at
the cave (where she tells him that M/M/I are her family, etc.) makes
little sense. If he isn't, then how on earth did she manage to fool
him? I'd prefer the latter - any explanation would have to be
something of a stretch, but at least one could maintain some
consistency within the storyline. I have to say, though, that I
found his only half-hearted warning not to use the orbs rather
suspicious.

Ultimately, I just find it difficult to believe that the writers
actually expect us to take this past lives/saviours of the world
stuff seriously.

And I must also add that, while I found Liz's step back fairly
believable in the spoilers, that was not the case when I actually
saw it on-screen. Up until the very last moment she kept saying that
one chooses one's destiny and then all of a sudden she feels
compelled to leave Max to his pre-ordained one? I can understand
that the magnitude of what was revealed would change the equation
and it certainly makes sense for Max to need some time to digest it
all, but still... If those scenes had been longer and there'd been
more detail to her reaction, maybe it would have been more
understandable. As it was, I found it contrived.

[This message has been edited by MEP (edited 05-16-2000).]

DeeinKS Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 380
05-16-2000 01:25 AM

OH, MY!!!
SO, what I read up above (GraceKel?) about Hubble's wife, and
reasoning, led me to thinking.
Why did Nacedo kill an innocent woman who was pregnant? I still
wondered that, why did he kill her, she didn't get in the way of
anything I wouldn't think.
But, she was pregnant with a little girl right? Maybe this ties in
with Tess, and why she didn't come out with the rest of them, right?
Nacedo engineered her then?
Wow, that is something to think about. That leaves all kinds of
possibilities.

sterlingsilver Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 383
05-16-2000 02:39 AM

MEP: Amen to the snickering. I agree with everything, with the
exception of Liz's step back; it seemed natural and appropriate to
me here. Then again, I didn't have a problem with the first step
back in Balance, either. (Well, other than a little depression. )

Kate6058: Your issues are mine. Just give us a little time to think
up a (stretched) reason of why Tess did it, and I'll happily chew it
up over this bride/savior crap.

Tepp: Your argument is compelling, but gives me no more comfort than
the current situation. Should your scenario become Roswell fact, I
find the implications of a third female in Max's life to be far too
convoluted for comfort. Even if she's dead, she's yet another
disturbing "issue" for Max and Liz to deal with. Among other
questions, what if Max did love her? (If you take Mom's message at
face value, love is an alien emotion despite Nasedo's seeming lack
of it.) In addition, finding a reason for Tess' bizarre behavior is
as nearly as difficult as finding one for her making the entire
vision up. All in all, I think the end product of such a plot twist
would seem as unsatisfactory and forced as all the current ones do.
(Besides, Tess is hardly a threat to our beloved couple as she is
now. Why introduce a character that actually could be?)

I am not, however, a proponent of the "Liz as Max's true
reincarnated former bride" theory. No way. That's pushing show
credibility farther faster than Genie. And Liz being human is the
very thing that links the audience to the M/L relationship; if we
were to find out that she were actually alien, we would feel so
distanced from the cute little "alien drama" we wouldn't know what
to do with ourselves. It's the alien/human star-crossed,
intergalactic, space (and apparently time) transcending love that is
key to the mythic core of the show.

DocPaul Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 186
05-16-2000 03:11 AM

It has been awhile since I threw my towel into the ring, but since I
am heading off for vacation in France for six weeks starting two
days from now, what the hey.

First, TonyR, a new member, and whoever you are please do not go
away. I really appreciated your analysis. It was refreshing.

Since I haven't posted in awhile this is going to be long, so I most
sincerely apologize.

TESS: I realize that many have hated this character since her
initiation, and despite any action on her part, she will always
remain evil and unworthy. But, I believe that Tess is exactly what
she claims to be.

Maybe all aspects are not known, but if Nesado purpose was to
protect the children, he should have and would have detected the
"pure evil" of Tess's core many years ago.

Basically, I see Tess as a emotionally stunted child. Like the
proverbial monkey in a cage, given only a wire framed mother, whose
nuturing was none existing, Tess character and ability to understand
emotions is at best undeveloped.

She has been given an understanding that she has a "destiny" with
someone who should actually love her. Why would she walk away from
that? I wouldn't.

Lying and manipulating? Hmmm, what 16 year old, that has been the
center of attention by one parent (although the parent is lacking in
emotion, not in protective regard), allowed to use her powers and
develop them with out remorse or human consciousness, what 16 year
old wouldn't be manipulative? We often ask so much from people who
are so young, and the things we ask for, are things even we don't
even aspire towards.

For the first time in her life she is no longer alone. The others
that she and Nesado have looked for her entire life are finally
found, and it is perhaps beyond her ability to understand why they
do not find the appeal of a pre-destiny. Her destiny looks much
better than any reality she has ever lived. After all, it not like
Tess has had much exposure to being human. I'm so sure that she and
Nesado spent many a nights sitting up drink hot chocolate together
and discussed free will versus destiny along with human morals, such
as, thou shalt not kill, lie, be deceitful, or not surviving.

MAX & LIZ: I have alway believed that Max and Liz were not joined by
the healing of Liz by Max.

If he is a healer, as it would appear, this connecting with ones
patient would be ....inconvenient, and at most a very poor design.
Personally, as a physician, I connect with patients at many levels,
but at the degree that is seen with this pair? No thank you. My job
would have broken me emotionally years ago.

I believe that when Max "reversed the polarity" of his ability to
see Liz's past, so she could see into him is when this GREAT,
"soulmate" bond really began. Max stated that he never tried it
before and wasn't sure it would even work, but he wanted her to see
him, to understand that he would never harm her or anyone. Did he
change her? She received flashes from Nesado, so he must have. What
is the change? It would appear that she is now a conduit.

Is Michael and Maria's relationship or Isabel and Alex's less
important because they don't receive flashes from their alien
partners? Who's to say, since none of the other pairs have ever
tried to reverse the flow, as it were.

Has Max always felt this love for Liz? So we are led to believe. Has
Liz? Only for the last year, so are they the destined couple of the
cosmos? It really doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if the
connection was first dregged up out of the primordial ooze, or atoms
colliding in a big bang, or just over active hormones. What came
before, what would have happened if events were different, are of no
consequence, all that matters is the here and the now. The bond has
been forged. There is no destiny, except that which we make
ourselves.......free will.

BEING HUMAN: Those wonderful powers that Michael is learning to
control and use. What did Nesado say? They are not alien powers, but
hyped up human powers thousands of years in advance. Interesting,
that Michael and Nesado seem to share so many of these powers.

Are the aliens merely humanoids that once resembled Earth humans?
Through evolution and time, those special parts of the unused human
brain was utilized until a human species evolved into a more alien
one. (How Martian Chronicle of me.) In the process, they changed
their physical perimeters, their brain capacity evolved, and the
removal of certain human emotions were laid wasted in generations of
evolution.

Maybe it was the loss of these things all human that made them prey
to alien invaders? Maybe when they lost in war their supreme leader
and his closest allies, they lost all hopes of survival. Unless,
they were able to re-engineer members of their species to
re-incorporate those aspects of humanity that could be combined with
increased mental agility in hopes of defeating a powerful foe, only
then could they have a hope for survival. Is this the true reason
that our friends were engineered? To be answered by all things,
Roswell and next season.

WE ARE MATED: True that Max and Tess may have been married in a
previous life. I refuse to just assume that their match was not
based on some deep alien affections, call it love even though we are
talking about cross cultural translation of emotions that may or may
not exist.

Alien mom seems to express a desire to hold her children again, not
just as the saviors of their race, but as a very maternal instinct
and familial affection. So maybe aliens don't have human emotions,
but their emotions exist on some level. Nesado seems very dedicated
to his mission. Perhaps these aliens are more like
....Vulcans.....just generations of repressed emotions that still
work, but just in different levels?

Were they all engineered to be together as they were in their
previous lives? Who knows. Probably not. They were probably chosen
to be engineered together because in life they shared a bond of
friendship, love, trust and devotion, that even though in foreign
human bodies would not be the same, but would be strong enough to
bond them in their next life as a support structure and to aid them
in their new difficult lives. Regardless of the unforseen dangers,
they will always stay together and protect one another.

Parent aliens, when they engineered the pod-kiddies, must have
realized that the human DNA and introduction of human emotions could
not be anticipated. The outcome at most would be a crap-game. So
they sent protectors and teachers to help the children develop.
Unfortunately, crashes happen, aliens are captured, pod kids wander
when let unattended, basically stuff happens. So we take the
"essense of the alien" mix it with the volatile beast of the human,
mix in some heart and soul, and voila......we have Roswell.

Stay tuned..........the ride is going to be unpredictable. We call
that, the human touch.

DocPaul

[This message has been edited by DocPaul (edited 05-16-2000).]

JanetMG Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 215
05-16-2000 03:30 AM

Have a great time in France, DocPaul!! Enjoyed the post.

I'm curious, folks--Why do you like the fake hologram theory? Is it
a reaction to the sci fi explanation, a reaction to perceived
implications for M/L or something else? DocPaul's discussion about
the composition of the Tang Gang (MMI&T) rang true to me. (The
"engineered together because in life they shared a bond of
friendship, love, trust and devotion" to give them a "support
structure" part.) So did parts of earlier comments by tepp (great
post, BTW), groovygirl & others. I really didn't see any strong
message or reason in Alien Mom's spiel that forecloses the M/L
relationship or requires a M/T. (To me the "cliffhanger" part really
didn't have much force behind it from a sci fi storyline
perspective.) I have to think about it more (& rewatch it), but
Alien Mom's message itself seems neutral--it's only when you add
some (not all) of the pictures from the book that you might get a
reproduction/ordained mate theme. We've already discussed why its
hard to find the book credible.

Also, on the past lives front--Cosmicgirl brings up some interesting
points. I don't think we've seen any flashbacks or memories from
their "prior" lives. How does this storyline differ, if at all, from
the reincarnation theories found in certain religions? Among other
reasons, maybe their essence needs the experience of being human to
further develop. Is Roswell going to explore religion/spirituality?
That would be extremely daring--too daring to be likely.

[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 05-16-2000).]

spiritwolf Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 14
05-16-2000 04:56 AM

quote:
Originally posted by shikastaDuNuit:
... but the question is then why aren't we enslaved yet?

Maybe we are.
Maybe the very existance we have always known ... war, poverty,
answering to higher, unseen governmental authorities is a version of
enslavement. Enslavement doesn't have to include chains and whips.
What if the other aliens were sophisticated enough to be pulling the
strings of banks and governments. Like say, political parties do.
Maybe the have been operating behind the curtain for a very long
time.

Miss Roswell Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 265
05-16-2000 06:33 AM

This is really out there but maybe (we think) Nasedo killed Mrs.
Hubble because she was really pregnant with (his) alien baby, which
incidently maybe is Liz? Things aren't as they seem, right? Maybe
Liz's mom was close proximity, maybe in the store, and the baby
mysteriously transfered to her. That could explain why Liz and Max
feel so close. They are one of the same.

[This message has been edited by Miss Roswell (edited
05-16-2000).]

wisters Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 339
05-16-2000 06:39 AM

I have to say that I had a very strange reaction to Destiny. I LOVED
it and I was disappointed.

IF the message from "mom" was exactly as is then the Roswell that I
know and love is going to go through a LOT of changes. However I do
think that the Message we and the squad heard may have been in some
way altered. I very glad to read that others of you may be thinking
the same thing.

Please note, I have only watched Destiny once and I will definitely
need to watch it a few more times before I can form any concrete
opinions. However I do have some first impressions that I would like
to sound out.

I believe it was Tepp who pointed out there seemed to be a big deal
made of the fact that Tess can give images to more than one person
at a time. I do believe that there is a huge significance here! Now
the "message from mom". I do believe that a signal was sent out and
that the orbs are a communicating device. However, I am inclined to
think that the message is more of a form similar to Superman. A
message to explain how the surviors have come to be where they are.
Thinking back to Sexual Healing, the visions that Liz had seemed to
be of a red giant, a dying planet, not a planet that the had been
captured. I think that Max knew (had a feeling) that activating the
orbs would be dangerous (signal others/enemies? as Nesado said) but
he needed to know.

Now here's where my imagination kicks into overtime. I think that
Tess used what she knows about MMI (and Liz too) to create a scene
where she becomes more integral and her hopes/wishes are confirmed.
Michael needed a reason/purpose, what could be more grandeiose than
saving their home planet. Is needs a family. Tess knows how close
she is to her parents, specifically her mom and that message tapped
right into Is's emotional centers. Max is noble, and there would be
no chance that he would leave Liz and vice versa unless there was
something of a grand scale, a prior commitment. Tess herself made
that mean (have to call it like I see it) comment to Liz about some
people can't see what is right infront of them. Another problem that
I have is the emotional level of the message. How can Nesado have no
emotion (be totally alien) and yet the mother, presumably also
totally alien be so emotionally driven? It just doesn't fit for me.

Another point about the message, and this is where I really need to
go back and watch it again, if I remeber correctly....We see all of
them watching the orbs as they are first activated, however, once
the beam shoots up, and the hologram appears, I don't recall seeing
Tess watching the message. I remeber seeing Max and certainly Is
(great preformances) and even Michael and Liz, but not Tess. And if
memory serves me correctly, I don't think that we see Tess
"watching" her own visions in earlier scenes either. We have seen
her with eyes closed and concentrating as the images are being given
and her reactions immediately after, but not during! Please correct
me if I am wrong here.

Thus, I am left with one problem, if the message has been altered by
Tess to perpertrate her desires.....

What is the true nature of the four aliens relationships? Hopefully
they are all related and even nobility, meant to survive, but not
rescue an entire planet.

What are Tess's motives? I am leaning toward spoiled emtionally
stunted child needing to belong and be tied to the others
(specifically Max) in a far greater way than she is.

What was the true message that was supposed to be delivered? Many,
many possiblities here that would allow for great future story
lines.

Why the "bad aliens"? Again many possibilities.

I have other thoughts, but will stop here.

Wisty

Jugular Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 199
05-16-2000 06:51 AM

Who ever said the planet that MM&I (disregard Tess for a second)
came from isn't Earth itself? Last week I had theorized about the
possibility of time travel coming into play (making the 1947 ufo
crash to really involve a time machine).

Who's to say that this hologram isn't coming from the future in
"real" time? Anyone seen Frequency or Back to the Future? In these
films, if the time traveler/person who knows the future changes an
pre-determined event, that changes the future, right? Our Pod Squad
now knows the future... the people on their planet (Earth?) have
been enslaved and it's their mission to change things now to help
free them in the future.

As for Tess, I'm very reluctant to place her officially among MM&I.
Her motives are very questionable and her behavior is suspicious.
Whether or not the time travel theory sticks, one would have to
assume that the "essence" of our teen aliens was probably on the
ship involved in the 1947 crash (who's intended mission was to plant
the pods on present day Earth). If 2 aliens died in the crash,
couldn't the essence of one of the aliens (Max's bride) have also
been destroyed? If so, then that would have easily given the "bad"
aliens a shot at changing history for their benefit, by planting a
pod of their own for cross-breeding (or something more sinister).

wisters Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 339
05-16-2000 07:00 AM

Hi Jugular,

Just a couple of things about what you said, not that I am buying
into it (or not buying into it---undecided actually). But, How about
Terminator?!? If they are from the future and the activating of the
orbs, which have a strangely organic nature to them IMHO, could
easily be picked up if the "bad aliens"--still not sure what to call
them--if they are from the same times and perhaps less than
organic?? I thought last night that the devices used to pick up the
signals had a very mechanical feel to them and perhaps if it is a
time travel issue these devices are machines....see where I am going
with this thought. This is a new idea on my part and I really
haven't given it much thought.

Call it a reaction to what Jugular just posted

Wisty

Now I am really curious. I have to give this idea some thought
regarding how it might be integrated into my previous speculations.
hmmmmm
Off to ponder this some more.

I need to go home and watch Destiny again, but unfortunately that is
quite a ways away.

Jugular Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 199
05-16-2000 07:17 AM

Wisty: Could you (or anyone else for that matter) explain about
Terminator. I haven't had a chance to see any of the films (I
know... I know... I'm lame) so I'm real curious how they handled the
time travel thing.

As for your post, I'm unclear as to what you're getting at (sorry...
not awake yet). For all we know the "bad" aliens intentionally
planted these communicators (homing devices the "bad" aliens made
themselves) to track down MM&I.

Ossian Registered: Nov 1999 Posts: 153
05-16-2000 07:21 AM

Not real impressed with the sci-fi plausibility of this ep. For
starters, it's been bugging me for two weeks that Nasedo has "no
skeletal structure". To walk around I've always assumed that you
either need an endo-skeleton (like us humans have) or an
exo-skeleton (like bugs have). Otherwise you end up looking like a
jelly fish.

Then there's the whole clone thing. Sure, I'll buy that you can
clone an alien. I'll even let you tell me that you can clone the
memories/skills/personality traits of an alien to make them
recognizable and useful. The part I have a problem with is WHY
BOTHER? Did this civilization only produce *ONE* general? Would your
one general really need his "wife" along to help him plan a war? And
how long are you planning to wait for him to grow up, remember who
he is, figure out a way to get "home", and then somehow start a
revolution? This is COMPLETELY IMPRACTICAL. Not to mention silly. If
this is their idea of a Grand Plan to Save the Civilization I'd
advise Max and Company to renounce their citizenships.

Moving on, why on earth would anyone create a "tape recorder" that
sends out a homing beacon to your enemies when turned on? Again,
that's just silly. If the space potatoes really are "communicators"
and they were sending/receiving a message from the home planet that
would be a little different, but that sure looked like a recording
to me. And if Nasedo *knew* that turning it on would alert all those
other bad aliens how hard would it be to just say "Hey, you're all
clones. Your old mom wants you to save the home planet."?

Ignoring the silly sci-fi *attempts* in this episode, I'd say that
the characterization aspect was very good. I love Sheriff Valenti
more with each ep. I thought that Izzy getting misty over the image
of her "mother" was very appropriate. She's just a little girl who
desperately wants to know that her mother loved her. Katie did a
lovely job here. Michael's reaction to his newfound powers was
terrifically done. This will be a great angle to explore next
season. The contrasts between the three human/alien couples was also
portrayed well. Kyle actually got some screen time, too.

They've painted themselves into a very strange corner for next
season. I'm a huge sci-fi fan, but are plausibility and logic really
too much to ask?

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-16-2000 07:44 AM

DeeInks no I think it has to do with Liz. I am speculating that Liz
was truly Max's soulmate but maybe another group of evil Aliens have
almost come like the terminator and altered it which might be how
Liz turned out to be fully human (or like Tepp said that she was
prematurely removed from pod and replaced with Tess which could also
explain why Liz turned out to be fully human) This somehow I believe
is connected to GRANDMA and to MRS HUBBLE who I think looks very
much like Liz with the wind blowing through her hair--but I do not
feel they have given us enough to figure it all out yet--also there
is a picture in Liz's bedroom with a women with long dark hair and I
think this is also a slight clue-you can see the pic clearly when
Liz's mom is talking about "you use to be my baby girl and now you
are becoming a woman" in Sexual Healing for those who have it taped.
Ep after ep they show Max when he was six years old getting of the
bus and clearly connecting with Liz immediately(it could be that
despite this evil alien groups tampering Max found Liz anyway-also
the shooting could have been trying to stop this destiny again from
being fulfilled but Max saved Liz which keeps their destiny on
track. This also explains why Max and Liz's biological drives were
awakened in SH because they were suppose to not Tess and her
planting schemes!

MEP as far as what you are saying about it being contrived I have to
admit that as much as I cried my heart out at the end, this is a
perfect example of how the increased SCI FI interferes with the
relationship developments-I wish and hope they find a better balance
than they have lately because it does almost come off fake because
it is all so rushed!

Also what bothered me is how is Max trusting Nasedo now when he
kidnapped Liz they never even discussed it!

I personally am hoping if Max is smart and not being led around by
this crap that is unfolding-I hope they show him as already
realizing that something is afoot not believing it for an instant
but going along to flush them out to see what they are up to and him
going straight to Liz and asking her to help him uncover the real
truth and what is truly behind this plot.

wisters Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 339
05-16-2000 07:46 AM

Hi Jugular,

Haven't seen the Terminator flicks? OK, well I guess there are a few
that haven't. I actually am not usually into that type of action
films, but I did like Terminator and Terminator2 immensely. Great
time travel stuff in them.

T & T2 as relating to time travel.....In the first one, Michael
Biehn (actor, I forget the character's name) is living in a post
nuclear destroyed Earth and he is sent back in time to save Sarah
(again, forgetting her last name, sorry) because she will give birth
to the man that will lead the humans in defeating the machines that
have taken over the planet and caused the nuclear holocust trying to
eliminate the humans (their creators). The thinking computers send
back a machine (a terminator/Arnold Swartzenager) to kill Sarah, so
that her son will never be born.....good love story here, don't want
to spoil it for you....Sarah survives and is pregnent with the
future leader, end movie.

T2, the child is older, living in foster care cause mom is a little
nuts, who can blame her, constanting imagining the end of the world
and all....and two more terminators, new supermodel, sent by the
machines, and original model (another Arnold), sent by the humans,
are sent back again. This time to kill and protect John,
respectively. At the same time Sarah is intent on stopping the
Technology from being developed that allows for the creation of
sentient computers from being developed. (another interesting time
travel issue here--the technology actually comes from the future in
the form of a left over piece of the first terminator in the first
movie being studied and developed).

What the heck am I getting at....IF, big IF, our pod squad are from
our own future, then the "bad aliens" might not be aliens at all,
rather "terminators". Which might offer an plausible explaination as
to why the use of the orbs would alert them to the location of their
"enemies".

Wild Speculation on my part, I know. But hey, we have months to
speculate away.....

All I can say with any certainity is that the creative team of
writers are going to have a huge task infront of them for the fall,
in keeping Roswell special. The eternal optimist in me believes that
it can be done. It is just a matter of how!!!!

Wisty

I hope that clears a few things up for you Jugular But I doubt it

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-16-2000 07:59 AM

Twisters very interesting how you think Tess might have zeroed in on
the needs of our three MMI in order to manipulate them and yes I
also noticed that they never showed Tess watching the vision either.
I was wondering if her eyes were shut!

Heart of Ice Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 378
05-16-2000 08:00 AM

Oooo, I love this thread! And, thanks to the fact that FINALS ARE
COMPLETED! I've actually seen the ep!

As written before: I loved it. Proclamations of true love (M/L and
M/M), suspense, intrigue, danger, and smoochin'!

Okay, back to the real stuff:

MEP: I think it was natural for Liz to withdraw after seeing the
hologram. Though she has proclaimed that they shape their destinies
(Fate Be Damned, so to speak), I think after seeing the image and
message from the AlienMom, the true alien-ness of Max really hit
her. Hard. I'm such an M/L fan, though, I know they find their way
back to one another, and be stronger than ever before (yeah, yeah, I
know: I'm such a believer in true love, it's almost too sweet to
believe . ..)

TonyR - nice to have on you the Board. I agree wholeheartedly about
Tess' upbringing. I mentioned on a couple of different threads my
opinion that Tess has been raised to believe in this destiny - she
as the bride of the brave leader. If one is raised to believe in
such a life, it would be hard to believe that life could hold
anything else (and with one look at Max, who WOULDN'T want to
believe a destiny like that . . . )

DocPaul - Bon Voyage! Again, my utter dislike of the Tess character
might lead to some major bashing, but, I feel too good today to do
so! I reiterate what I said above: she's been raised to be an alien,
using alien powers, denying any human essence to exist within her
(disgustingly troll like existence . . . oops. slipped!)

Ossian: I'm not sure about the communicators alerting others to the
PodSquad's whereabouts, but could it possibly be just an oversight?
Maybe the "good" aliens didn't realize that the bad guys would
follow them to Earth? Maybe the AlienMom wanted to make sure that
all the parties were gathered together (in case the four had become
separated), and oops, I guess when she rang the dinner bell, so to
speak, she got the whole damned neighborhood, not just the ones she
intended. Just in idea.

Elliott: I miss your thoughts here! Come out from hiding, please!

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-16-2000 08:10 AM

Jugular what an interesting theory that they are talking about
future earth-now that would be mind blowing wouldn't it? Its really
got me thinking. This show is so thought provoking isn't it?

Did anyone else notice that now that Tess and Nasedo are around
Michael his powers have been working better? Did someone say
something about the energy. This also supports my theory of Michael
being one of them and having much to overcome in the future!

Jugular Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 199
05-16-2000 08:11 AM

Thanks Wisty! I completely understand your explanation of the
Terminator movies and how it all relates back the plot. After your
thoughts on the matter, I'm even more leaning towards this theory,
especially since we now all know there are bad guys out to get our
beloved trio. Time will tell...

Dedalus Registered: May 2000 Posts: 1
05-16-2000 09:01 AM

Greetings guys. I have to say, I loved
Destiny. Over the top with the sci-fi
perhaps, but it sat well with me, for some
reason.

As for the time traveling thing ...
outstanding theory. Makes a lot of sense.
And goes along with much of what we've
learned so far.

And it does go with the theme of teen/human
"alienation" of the show. We've seen the
aliens, and they are indeed us ... how
existential.

Elliott Level 4 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 899
05-16-2000 09:41 AM

I hope I am not going to be too much of a wet blanket here today,
but I'm going to discuss a couple of plot points on this thread from
a unique perspective: that of producer Kevin Brown, who joined the
'Destiny' viewing party in New York City last night, and spent 90
minutes discussing the show with some of us after the show aired.

About the idea that Emilie de Ravin's appearance is deliberately
signaling that Tess is malformed or 'different' from the other
three: It would appear not. Brown mentioned that at least a few
actresses were up for this part and that Jason Behr read with all of
them. He said he wasn't sure how de Ravin came to be cast in the
end. When someone mentioned that she looked drastically different
from the other three, this seemed not to have occurred to him
before.

On the idea that Liz was somehow biologically or chemically
'changed' by Max's intervention: Again, no dice. When I brought this
up, the idea seemed peculiar to Brown and no one on the show
evidently had any such thought or intention.

While it may be dicey to extrapolate too much from this, I come to
the conclusion that sterlingsilver is absolutely correct: Tess is
what she seems to be, as is Liz, who is all human all the time. Tess
was created to make a romantic triangle with Max and Liz and
crystalize the central moral dilemma that Max must now face: Is he
human or alien? Which is his destiny and can these two currents be
reconciled? And it was made clear to us that this triangle will
continue into next season to shake up a Max/Liz relationship that
seemed static to some on the show.

In general, we were told that the emphasis on sci-fi that dominated
the last six shows of the season has been considered a great success
by the creative team and the network, and that healthy ratings bear
out this view. Writers with a sci-fi slant will be sought for next
season, and this emphasis will remain in place, though Brown was at
pains to say that they would never lose the sense of character
detail and romance that are a hallmark of the show.

redhawk Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 110
05-16-2000 10:09 AM

So many good theories bouncing around on this thread! Someone
earlier (sorry can't remember who) brought up the red giant. It had
slipped my mind. How does Liz' vision of the red giant jive with
their new 'mission' to save their planet from the evil aliens?

I hope the writers have thought this all through. The fans do pay
attention and appreciate well thought out dramas. Liz' vision was
before they had to speed things up for ratings and it seems like the
writers have been throwing alot of scifi into the mix which of
course brings up lots of questions. Guess we'll have to tune in
October.

McJ Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 8
05-16-2000 10:11 AM

My question(s)

1. Why is everyone assuming that the others that were alerted were
"bad" aliens. What if they are Max's army? What if the communicator
was a call to arms so to speak? What if they were all given those
lighted beacons to know when and where to assemble in order to
commence "Operation Take Back Our Enslaved Planet".

2. Now that Kyle knows they are aliens (assuming Kyle can figure
things out now), doesn't that convienently leave another boy for the
left out girl (Tess)? Wouldn't it be easy to have Tess turn to Kyle
now in a way that Isabel and Alex naturally turned to each other as
a couple?
Tess: "Oh Max is supposed to be with me."
Kyle: "Oh Liz is supposed to be with me."
Tess to Kyle: "Why don't they love us like they are supposed to?
Kyle to Tess: "Hey, let's try and make them jealous...." blah, blah,
blah....

My 2 dimes - Mcj

McJ Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 8
05-16-2000 10:19 AM

Oops.

[This message has been edited by McJ (edited 05-16-2000).]

JanetMG Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 215
05-16-2000 10:23 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
About the idea that Emilie de Ravin's appearance is deliberately
signaling that Tess is malformed or 'different' from the other
three: It would appear not. . . On the idea that Liz was somehow
biologically or chemically 'changed' by Max's intervention: Again,
no dice. . .
Writers with a sci-fi slant will be sought for next season, and this
emphasis will remain in place, though Brown was at pains to say that
they would never lose the sense of character detail and romance that
are a hallmark of the show.

Very interesting Elliott, thanks for passing this info on. I must
say I'm very happy to hear that they are looking for sci fi writers.
I'm past the snickering phase, but like Ossian, I'm still not very
impressed with the sci fi in Destiny.

I still think they left things fairly vague, but that may actually
be a good thing. Frankly, I've come expect much better sci fi ideas
& theories on these threads than I expect to see on the show. The
vagueness gives us more room to be creative. Maybe it will give any
new writers the ability to go to more creative places, as well. (I
really don't mean to bash the writers. They have done an excellent
job on the relationship aspects and sci fi theories w/o the
relationship stuff wouldn't be nearly as interesting. I just haven't
developed any confidence yet in their ability to do sci fi, which is
the part that could keep me hooked for a longer time. I hope that
ability is developed without losing people who can write
relationships.) Most of all, however, if next season is going to
involve a continuing story arc, I hope it is more carefully
constructed. In the 1999 press tour, the producers indicated that
they hadn't mapped out the entire season in much, if any, detail. I
think the piecemeal approach to a continuing storyline showed, and
hurt the show more than the writing (or lack of scifi plausibility)
in any particular episode or two.

sterlingsilver Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 383
05-16-2000 10:27 AM

Elliott, all of that news is very disappointing to me. Did it seem,
though, that Kevin Brown was interested or thoughtful about any of
your general opinions/thoughts on Tess matters, the sci-fi, etc?

sterlingsilver Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 383
05-16-2000 10:28 AM

Elliott, all of that news is very disappointing to me. Did it seem,
though, that Kevin Brown was interested or thoughtful about any of
your general opinions/thoughts on Tess matters, the sci-fi, etc? Is
he very conscious of the general concensus around here about some of
these basic issues?

silver.star Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 129
05-16-2000 10:33 AM

I have briefly skimmed through the posts and I apologize for that
but here goes my thoughts anyway: (this is going to take me most of
the day to write---I know, I know but I am at work)

Max: A leader! But we always knew that. Michael, Isabel they have
always looked to Max for guidance. No matter how much Michael tried
(and disliked it), Max was in-charge. Max is finding out what he was
here to do (so the message said), but Max is also now human (the
majority anyway). Max now has to find the �evil� aliens, learn about
not only his powers, but the powers of the �evil� ones, destroy them
and save the planet he does not know.
Nasedo: Still wondering about him, what about you?? I want to
believe he is just a protector for our pod squad but the more I
think about it, well---I am not so sure anymore.
Tess: There is something definitely not right about her. As Shee was
discussing last night (at our HoustonRoswell party), she said that
Tess will eventually destroy herself-in some way or another (not
quoted, but something to that effect). And Shee, I totally agree
with that one. But I also feel that Tess is not who she says she is.
The mother projection of M/I said that � his young bride was sent
with him�. But how do we know it is Tess?? I honestly think Tess is
�evil�. Tess can make you see things that are not really there and
we know that she can do this to multiple people at the same time.
This was given to us WHY??
Nasedo/Tess: IMHO - Nasedo and Tess are working together. Do not
really know how yet but working on it!
Liz: How sad that she walked/ran away, I know, I know�but what would
you have done?? I think I would have done the same. The man you
loved just found out that he was a leader on another planet and
needs to free his people/alien race (who knows). Your feelings seem
to sound selfish and minor to the big picture (not that I am saying
that Max/Liz relationship is minor, totally a Liz/Max Fan). But come
on you have to give the guy time to think this over a little. We
know how Max feels about Liz and I doubt that he will just let that
go. AFTER ALL THE MAJORITY OF MAX IS HUMAN!!!!!!!!!!
****************************************************
Now our pod squad was more than willing to trust Nasedo at the end
of the show and that struck me kind of strange (it was just an all
of a sudden DON�T YOU THINK??). I understand that he helped save
Max, but I still do not know his intentions towards our pod squad.
The fact that he did not stress enough about attracting �who knows�
to them. If he is there to protect them he would have stopped them
somehow. Tess, honestly I believe that she made them see her in the
pod that day in the cave. Don�t forget Nasedo was there too. We know
the �essence� of Max�s bride was sent but we don�t know exactly what
she looked like. Tess has never been under X-Rays. Do we know she
has a bone structure like the pod squad? My opinion on Tess is that
she is not there to help them but to bring them out into the open.
Speculation of the images they saw in the cave could have been an
illusion that Tess had them see, but really the communicators were a
beacon for the �evil� aliens to begin whatever they are going to do.

I don�t think we really understand the importance of Liz here. Liz�s
grandmother knew something (Don�t know exactly what).
She did not freak nor did she have to try to understand how Max
could help Liz say goodbye to her. Seemed kind of normal. For all we
know the essence of Max�s bride was not cloned right or it
mysteriously entered into Liz�s grandmother and passed it on to Liz
(��think 1947). But this is only a thought. But Liz is definitely a
part of something bigger than they think.

Maria/Alex: I would have liked to see a more emotional goodbye
between Maria and Michael. There was not much of a relationship
between Alex and Isabel (the relationship between them was just
growing/new). I am a M/M fan so I was disappointed in the good bye
between them.

Ok again I state, how did the aliens get the human DNA?? I still
think that there was a collaboration between human and alien
sometime before the crash. Anyone agree?? I do think the �evil
aliens were here before the crash and waiting for the pod squad to
emerge.

This is one of those times that you have so much to say and talk
about with out the room and time...............

silver.star Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 129
05-16-2000 10:36 AM

Double posted

[This message has been edited by silver.star (edited 05-16-2000).]

silver.star Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 129
05-16-2000 10:41 AM

Triple Posted...Sorry

[This message has been edited by silver.star (edited 05-17-2000).]

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-16-2000 11:30 AM

Elliot you could never be a wet blanket to us. Thanks for the info
-do you think that maybe he just didn't want to give away
storylines-I hope it isn't what you see is what you get-how boring!
Otherwise the people on this thread should be writing the show!

If I haven't said it already let me say I only want to see TESS in
about 2 episodes more at the most! She is a whiny little childish
brat (the character not the actress herself) and I NEVER EVER want
her to be a regular! If she becomes part of the opening credits next
year I will barf!

HollyLou Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 392
05-16-2000 11:48 AM

I have always concurred with Elliot's 'Max the Messiah' theory so
when their mother spoke of Max being the leader I immediately
accepted the hologram as being genuine. But here's why I think it's
false:

1. MEP notes that special attention was given to the fact that Tess
posseses the power not only to plant images in peoples head but to
enable the same vision to be seen my numerous people.

2. If we accept that the orbs are communicators, information given
to us by Topolsky and Pierce presumeably obtained from a captured
alien, then the resulting message is what doesn't fit. Why encrypt a
message to your saviors that at the same time would alert their
presence to the enemy? Maybe the communicators did exactly what was
intended in acting as a beacon and Tess took advantage of this
moment to project a vision that would further her own cause-getting
close to Max. It's only Nasedo and the vision that provide us with
the idea that there are enemies on Earth.

3. The message seemed to me to be a lot like Tess-COLD! Some of you
will chalk it up to aliens not having human emotions but then you
have the "I love you" thrown in at the end that felt like an
afterthought. An attempt by a girl devoid of feelings to manipulate
the trio using what she now realizes drives them-their emotions and
sense of responsibility.

4. What a huge leap for us to believe that they would send a leader
and only his second in command to shoulder this planetary rescue
mission!! And with their significant others? So they wouldn't be
lonely? How sweet. Assuming that time passes the same on the
different planets it seems a rather long time to invest in a rescue
mission. The situation could have easily changed back home. Maybe
the crash and MIA status of MMI changed that but Nasedo still says
that "they aren't ready".

5. And the simply annoying fact that immediately after hearing this
incredible information Tess snuggles up to Max saying something to
the effect of "you're my destiny-I told you so".

Elliott Level 4 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 899
05-16-2000 11:55 AM

sterlingsilver: I want to answer your question honestly, but it is
difficult. 'Interested'? Yes, I think he was generally interested in
what our ideas were and what we liked and didn't like about the
show.

'Thoughful'? Tougher to answer. It was a restaurant backroom with
the TV still showing 'Friends' reruns, etc., and he was surrounded
by 15 or 20 die-hard fans who were commenting on what he said and
asking questions. Not the right forum for thoughtfulness. But I did
not get the idea that he seriously entertained (or found promising)
the ideas that either Liz was 'changed,' or that Tess is somehow not
a full part of the alien four.

Of course a bunch of other people were there who heard what I did.
Maybe they have other interpretations, and I'd be glad to hear them.

GraceKel: This is pure speculation on my part, but from what Brown
was saying, I don't think it likely that Tess will be pictured in
the opening credits or promoted up from 'guest starring' status. It
would (among other things) be extremely disrespectful to the other
actors, all of whom really belong in the credits. And I get the
feeling that the producers know that and are sensitive to it.

Roswellite Level 2 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 87
05-16-2000 11:58 AM

Some of my thoughts in the wake of Destiny.......

Body Doubles : They still have to explain how they got the human
genetic material. Were Max and others produced once they got here or
back on their home planet? Do you think it's possible that they have
human doubles here on Earth? (The ones they got the DNA from?)

What is essence? According to my cheesy dictionary it is the nature,
substance, being of something or predominant qualities of something
(plant or drug). How vague is that?

As hurdler said

quote:
I
agree about the "essence" part I don't think a person's soul can be
cloned, just like with Dolly the sheep, I don't think her clone
would have the same personality or life experiences, hence the
destinies will be different.

How many ways can we prove that just because their "qualities"
(which probably just means personality traits - Max-leadership,
Michael - loyal follower, Tess - devotion and Isabel - nuturer and
most like Alien Mom) were cloned has nothing to do with their life
on Earth as humans. Max and Michael were sent to Earth with their
mates so that they would have some companionship - and let them take
it from there. Mom didn't know what was going to happen to them here
- hatching, getting adopted, mixing with humans, falling in love,
etc...

Betrothed? That is different than "engaged" or "in love with". The
lack of "emotions" that Nasedo alluded to could very well mean that
Max and Michael's marriage and future marriage, were only of of
convenience. They are an alien life form and may only marry in order
to mate, etc... I know this is obvious and has been said many times.
I'm just agreeing with this point of view. I think we at least ALL
want to believe this. When we watch movies like "Sleeping Beauty" or
others I can't think of right now we see a prince betrothed to a
princess from birth - nothing to do with love. Will Isabel and
Michael feel they need to rehash this point again next season? We'll
see. I'm sure it has to be mentioned at some point.

Save Earth!! And who do they think they are coming to our planet and
killing people? Go home a fight it out! Why
are the bad aliens here? To take over Earth? Why couldn't they learn
about the bad aliens on their own planet? Did Mom think it would
somehow be easier for them to do it on Earth because there are less
of them? Was Max the smartest one on their home planet or just
"Beloved Leader". How is leadership decided? Election? Heritage?
Intelligence? Seniority? Military leadership?

Also as hurdler asked:

quote:

Are they supposed to fight the enemy aliens on Earth? Is that what
their mother said for them to do? or are they supposed to watch out
for them and be on the defensive?

Right! Did Mom ever say anything about fighting the ones on Earth? I
remember she said - "learn all you can and return home to us" ....
Maybe they are not going to wage a battle (they can't win anyway
with only four of them and one of them a puny airhead)
Welcome Home???: The true alien species are little green men. The
Pod Squad are human. How would they be receiveed on their planet if
they really did go home -My theory: they wouldn't like it as much as
they think! They would be scared and not to mention grossed out!
Would they have to wear clothes there? What do they eat? They
clearly have no idea if they could even survive on this home planet.
I don't think they will ever actually leave Earth - and that will be
how the show will end when the time comes for the series to end.

SunStar Level 1 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 39
05-16-2000 02:03 PM

Sorry. I have no idea how this first one got posted. The board was
crazy yesterday. I got on and it just went out on me while I was
typing this & never even got to read it over. I never even got the
chance to see if it was on here. Then, this morning, I looked again
to make sure I didn't double post. I swear it was not here! So, I
edited it like I wanted to in the first place. I guess we are
getting too long winded on these!

[This message has been edited by SunStar (edited 05-17-2000).]

NoBody Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 15
05-16-2000 02:24 PM

I posted this under another topic, but it is also appropriate in
this one...

What Max & Isabel's "mother" said was that they were bio-engineered
clone-human hybrids based on the genetic templates of her real
children and their spouse/betrothed. They are expected to mature,
learn the full use of their powers and return to free their race,
which has been enslaved by other aliens.

If you examine what she said, this does not mean that Max and Tess
(or Michael and Isabel) are destined to be together, only that the
aliens on which they were based were together.

Nesado said last week that the "pod squad" were bio-engineered based
on alien templates, but they are actually human, that their powers
were within human potential capabilities but were only dormant in
most humans. Just because their 'templates' developed specific
relationships, does not mean the kids have to follow the exact same
paths.

In fact, they may be 'destined' to help others, such as Liz, Maria,
Alex and Kyle, to awaken their powers and to join their cause. Max's
saving of Liz in the pilot episode apparently started awakening her
potential; we have seen that in her contact "visions" with Max (the
psychic ability known as 'psychometry'). Kyle has now had the same
'treatment'; he may now start to exhibit a new psychic ability
because of it. I wouldn't be surprised if Kyle and Tess started a
fourth relationship...

I have also noticed that, although the 'pod squad' exhibit some
powers in common, especially the molecular manipulation through
their palms, each of them is developing psychic abilities which are
specific and specialized. Max is the psychic surgeon, Isabel is the
primary telepath, Michael uses telekinesis and Tess creates mental
illusions, with a touch of mind control added. Liz, as I said, has
developed psychometry, or 'past reading', which allows her to view
past events which occured near something/someone by touching it/him.
Remember, her power not only works with Max, but with Nasedo as
well, so it's not just a "Max/Liz" connection. Kyle, Maria and Alex
could develop new and different abilities, which Max may be able to
awaken through 'treatment'...

One of the others might even manifest a 'wormhole-teleportation'
ability, which could make return to the home planet much
simpler...

Sage Registered: May 2000 Posts: 22
05-16-2000 08:10 PM

LOL, GraceKel! Your last sentence had me falling off my chair. I
second the vote...

tepp Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 152
05-16-2000 08:57 PM

I need to clarify a couple of things. I never said that I thought
Tess or anyone else faked the message from MI's alien mother. I said
I believed that was real.

I said that if Tess faked anything it was the memories MMI had about
emerging from the pods. The primary support for this idea is that
(a) she could have done it and (b) the memories she inspired of
their coming out of the pods differ substantially from what we'd
already seen and been told about that event in "Balance." The two
versions are contradictory, and only one of them can be correct.
Tess has also all but admitted that she caused Max to hallucinate
things she wanted him to experience -- images and perhaps even more
comprehensive perceptions of a sexual relationship with her. In
fact, it's quite possible that Max has never even kissed Tess at
all. That whole sequence of events could have been a hallucination
she provoked in both Max and Liz (perhaps more for Liz's benefit
than Max's). This isn't really important, but if dreamgirls would
rather accept this version, no one can prove they're wrong.

Secondly, I've never said I thought Liz was alien or in any way
connected to Max's origins. I think she's 100% human (or at least
she was when this all started). I don't think she's Max's former
soulmate, former wife, or former anything. That's the point, she is
the match for this Max, who is a unique individual no matter what
his heritage, genetic foundation, or origins. The fact that Liz and
Max have freely chosen one another is an important point that has
received much emphasis. Liz's reaction to what she saw in the pod
chamber was predictable and noble. The only thing that really
bothered me about it was something I already knew was coming -- the
"bride" thing. Having a woman in love discover that the object of
her affections is bound by marriage -- even if that marriage is only
ceremonial or without commitment or love -- is a sterotypical plot
device. A recent example of it occurs in "Shakespeare in Love," and
it is a very unorignal tactic to split up a central couple.

Finally, I would point out that the tiny bit we've seen of the alien
culture suggests that it is dynastic and that Max is a descendant
(or reincarnation) in a royal line. It also seems probable that
these marriages that have been referred to are arranged "matches,"
which the word "betrothed" suggests and which would be consistent
with a monarchical, oligarchical, or similarly aristocratic
political structure. This kind of marriage tradition creates a
conflict for Max and his desire to be with someone (Liz) strictly
for love. It's one more choice between cultural obligation and free
will. Also, such a tradition could create a possible motive for Tess
and/or Nasedo to want to place an imposter in the role of Prince
Max's wife. I don't want to push this speculation too hard, but at
the very least Tess's behavior invites if not demands suspicion and
distrust. Whatever her problems or excuses, she has repeatedly
demonstrated a tendency to put her own agenda above everything else.

On another note, no one ever said Nasedo has no skeleton. He does.
What he does not have is a "human" skeleton. What so surprised
Pierce was that Max does.

Faith Evans Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 37
05-16-2000 09:21 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:

Tess was created to make a romantic triangle with Max and Liz and
crystalize the central moral dilemma that Max must now face: Is he
human or alien? Which is his destiny and can these two currents be
reconciled? And it was made clear to us that this triangle will
continue into next season to shake up a Max/Liz relationship that
seemed static to some on the show.

Hi you all, Though I mostly lurk here cause you all say everything
I'm thinking and write it much better then I ever could. But I just
had to write my gut reaction when I read this...

"triangle...static..., yeash! Soap Opera anyone, please no..."

Faith Evans Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 37
05-16-2000 09:30 PM

Double post, Board acting up again, Sorry...

[This message has been edited by Faith Evans (edited 05-16-2000).]

Kate6058 Level 5 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 1187
05-16-2000 10:08 PM

Well... with Elliott's last post, all my ideas have flown out the
window. I was all for the Liz being changed theory, but I guess
that's wrong.

So... I assume we here on the sci-fi threads have all read way too
far into things? That's really a shame... and it was another bad
move on the part of the writers to leave everything so wide-open for
interpretation if the literal explanation was going to be the only
correct one anyway. This also makes me think that Tess will not be
going anywhere. If they are willing to keep her despite the actress,
she's probably just going to be there to cause tension between Max
and Liz.

And that is old... old, old, old. Sure, she's an alien, but it's
still the same. I do like Max's continuing conflict with humanity
vs. his alien side, but they're going to have to tone things down a
lot to get him back to a human life that he can even bother fighting
for.

I really don't want to watch a whole season of Buffy-like alien
battles. And I think that we can expect to see several episodes
without any of the humans (except Valenti, maybe) next season.

sterlingsilver Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 383
05-16-2000 11:28 PM

Ignore this post.

Aeneas Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 22
05-16-2000 11:39 PM

I've been pondering. What reason would an advanced race seek
salvation by cloning mixing their fallen leaders with human DNA? It
only makes sense if the human DNA provides some advantage. Why only
create 4 copies? Why not an army? 4 is all that's necessary to free
an entire world? Why would a bunch of "bad" aliens, who would appear
to have a technological if not physical advantage over weak humans,
wait around for 4 alien/human hybrids to mature? Why not simply wipe
out every child? (of course this didn't work for Herod either) Of
course the same could be said for "good" aliens waiting 50 years for
their savior to hatch and mature.

As far as the direction of the show, ie sci-fi versus romantic.
Alien/human interaction allows the writers to examine human issues
from an outside perspective. If the show follows the sci-fi aspect
it simply becomes another sci-fi action adventure. The romantic
aspect is what makes this show unique. As for Tess, of course no one
likes her, that's not her purpose. She's here to test M&L
relationship. She's a foil, a forge through which the relationship
must pass.

alwaysme Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 131
05-17-2000 12:00 AM

ok all godd comments much to think about. Why so long before they
came out of the pods? Why only one ship. Why earth,was it the
closest. Was it where the enemy had gone or come from. There should
have been 4 Nacedos why? Protecters of the four in the pods. Why
human dna and how did they get it. Were they here before? With
Tesses gift I beleive that she could have manipulated the image from
the communicator. If it was set to appear when the communicators
were used why did't she give them more useful information?If their
destiny was to be together rhan they should have been aware of it.
Why didn't Nacedo say this to them? Too many questions not enough
answers. How long have the other aliens been here. Why weren't they
searching for the four? Tess is just too conveniently there.

HollyLou Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 392
05-17-2000 12:01 AM

This is just to see if I can get my post to show up.

Great to meet you silver.star and axiablue at the party last night.
It's so fun to read your posts now that I know you guys!!

plumeria Level 2 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 93
05-17-2000 12:03 AM

I LOVED "Destiny" overall (what an emotional roller coaster!) but I
noticed a bunch of potential inconsistencies:

1. Does anyone else remember that the orb Max and Liz found (in SH)
was signalling when they dug it up? Why/How? And why weren't the
presumably "evil" people alerted then?

2. When Max healed Kyle, the blood was gone from Kyle's shirt when
Max took his hand away. This was not the case at Liz's healing,
hence the need for ketchup.
(And while we're on the subject of healing, why is it that there was
only one handprint all season? Max healed Michael's eye, Liz's rash,
Michael healed River Dog's ankle -- no handprints.)

3. Doesn't Isabel usually need a photograph of the person she's
going to dreamwalk? Even in the White Room she has a pic of Max with
her. But there was no pic of Pierce...

4. Why is Michael the only one who holds his hand out when using his
powers? (Actually, why do all 4 have such different abilities?) And
when he does this, his powers go outward at whatever he's aiming at.
But Nacedo does the same gesture when he's turning his powers inward
to shapeshift. (Also I noticed that Nacedo has stopped popping his
post-transformation pills)

5. Only last week, Nacedo says that the Pod Squad were engineered to
be exactly like humans several thousand years into the future. This
week we're told that they were cloned from previous lives. Can these
ideas be compatible?

Anyone's insight will be helpful.

Inconsistencies or not, I totally love this show; I am unbelievably
sad at how things currently stand with Mi/M and M/L. Oh, and in an
earlier post, someone mentioned Michael's FBI suit as being one of
the powers used during Destiny. I think it's the same suit he wore
in White Room -- you see him take it off as he arrives at the silver
mine. He probably just put it back on later. No powers involved.

alwaysme Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 131
05-17-2000 12:03 AM

By the way really stupid question.What do the gold stars mean?

plumeria Level 2 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 93
05-17-2000 12:04 AM

I LOVED "Destiny" overall (what an emotional roller coaster!) but I
noticed a bunch of potential inconsistencies:

1. Does anyone else remember that the orb Max and Liz found (in SH)
was signalling when they dug it up? Why/How? And why weren't the
presumably "evil" people alerted then?

2. When Max healed Kyle, the blood was gone from Kyle's shirt when
Max took his hand away. This was not the case at Liz's healing,
hence the need for ketchup.
(And while we're on the subject of healing, why is it that there was
only one handprint all season? Max healed Michael's eye, Liz's rash,
Michael healed River Dog's ankle -- no handprints.)

3. Doesn't Isabel usually need a photograph of the person she's
going to dreamwalk? Even in the White Room she has a pic of Max with
her. But there was no pic of Pierce...

4. Why is Michael the only one who holds his hand out when using his
powers? (Actually, why do all 4 have such different abilities?) And
when he does this, his powers go outward at whatever he's aiming at.
But Nacedo does the same gesture when he's turning his powers inward
to shapeshift. (Also I noticed that Nacedo has stopped popping his
post-transformation pills)

5. Only last week, Nacedo says that the Pod Squad were engineered to
be exactly like humans several thousand years into the future. This
week we're told that they were cloned from previous lives. Can these
ideas be compatible?

Anyone's insight will be helpful.

Inconsistencies or not, I totally love this show; I am unbelievably
sad at how things currently stand with Mi/M and M/L. Oh, and in an
earlier post, someone mentioned Michael's FBI suit as being one of
the powers used during Destiny. I think it's the same suit he wore
in White Room -- you see him take it off as he arrives at the silver
mine. He probably just put it back on later. No powers involved.

Heart of Ice Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 378
05-17-2000 12:12 AM

Hi, Elliott - nice to hear from you. Thanks for the extra bits of
news. Interesting info. from K. Brown. I did notice (GraceKel, you
may want to check out this bit) that the official press release on
the WB schedule (from CrashDown site) lists De Ravin as a cast
member for the second season. While I'm elated the series is renewed
for next season, I'm just not a De Ravin fan (Elliott: gotta be
kiddin' me: they didn't notice she was quite different from the
other cast members???). I DO, though, like the expanded sci-fi
angle. Remembering the pilot as I do, the premise of the show is how
the Pod Squad make it as humans AND the Max-Liz relationship. I just
can't believe the writers would kill that idea completely. And, from
my aged perspective, relationships have bumps and adding the Tess
bump may make the M/L bond even stronger.

I'm most appreciative that the writers made it clear through
dialogue and actions in "Destiny" that Max truly loves Liz and she
feels the same way. Gone are the "gee, this isn't safe" crap of
earlier eps ! The heart strings on this Chilly one really sang
during those parts of the show. And were painfully pulled at the
episode ending. Gotta have the sweet with the sour, though, and I'm
just tickled, giggly, and smiling hugely today that we have another
season ahead.

Tess or no Tess (prefer the latter over the former), it'll be a
great show.

my twenty-two cents!

Noah Registered: May 2000 Posts: 8
05-17-2000 12:20 AM

GraceKel-Yes if Tess joins us next year I will be joining you for a
barf.

Thanks for the laugh after reading the scifi thread and all the good
ideas.

TexasPride Level 2 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 75
05-17-2000 12:26 AM

TonyR and DocPaul: Loved your posts exactly what I have been
thinking as well.

Tess: I agree that Tess is more the spoiled brat because of how she
was raised and not particularly because she is pure evil. I do think
that lack of feeling for any of them but her desire to have it her
way will bring about her manipulating the situation. I do believe
she is the true 4th alien and that all 4 of them were supposed to
have been brought up together by ALL of the adult aliens on the
ship. The crash changed all of that. Nacedo hid the pods which I
believe were meant to be hatched in 1947 rather than 50 or so years
later. It was because they were hidden that their birth was put off
till later and they eventually hatched by themselves. They wander
around get found and thus begins their lives. However.. Tess had not
hatched yet. So they are split up, the 3 raised with humans and
given the gift of having each other for support as well. While Tess
is raised by Nacedo, whom I think was sent to be their bodyguard,
and in such their race chose someone that was rutheless and non
caring enough that he would kill anyone he'd have to protect the pod
squad.
Now I do think Liz, Maria, and Alex are meant to play a big part in
the mission BUT I do not think Liz is the reincarnation of anyone or
of any essence. What I think is that Max like any young human boy
(since he is mostly human and that is WHAT he knew) just developed a
crush on her. When he saved her.. she too began to fall for him. Its
the love they have for each other that I know when push comes to
shove the humans will not let them fight anyone alone. They love and
care for the aliens too much to not try and protect them. I can't
wait to see what happens with all of this. But what I really really
want to know is if knowing that Isabel and Michael were once
engaged, if that will change their relationship. If I remember when
they thought she was pregnant they didn't seem to have any of the
"sexual/lovers love" feelings. Are they now too brother and sisterly
to ever feel like that about each other again? Or no? What do you
think this will mean to Michael and Maria.. and Alex and Isabel?
Will Alex and Maria do the same as Liz and just let go of them for
at least a while? I really can't wait to see the humans fighting
aliens for the sake of their beloved ones.

Heart of Ice Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 378
05-17-2000 12:29 AM

how many of these damned posts are there

[This message has been edited by Heart of Ice (edited
05-17-2000).]

TexasPride Level 2 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 75
05-17-2000 12:31 AM

TonyR and DocPaul: Loved your posts exactly what I have been
thinking as well.

Tess: I agree that Tess is more the spoiled brat because of how she
was raised and not particularly because she is pure evil. I do think
that lack of feeling for any of them but her desire to have it her
way will bring about her manipulating the situation. I do believe
she is the true 4th alien and that all 4 of them were supposed to
have been brought up together by ALL of the adult aliens on the
ship. The crash changed all of that. Nacedo hid the pods which I
believe were meant to be hatched in 1947 rather than 50 or so years
later. It was because they were hidden that their birth was put off
till later and they eventually hatched by themselves. They wander
around get found and thus begins their lives. However.. Tess had not
hatched yet. So they are split up, the 3 raised with humans and
given the gift of having each other for support as well. While Tess
is raised by Nacedo, whom I think was sent to be their bodyguard,
and in such their race chose someone that was rutheless and non
caring enough that he would kill anyone he'd have to protect the pod
squad.
Now I do think Liz, Maria, and Alex are meant to play a big part in
the mission BUT I do not think Liz is the reincarnation of anyone or
of any essence. What I think is that Max like any young human boy
(since he is mostly human and that is WHAT he knew) just developed a
crush on her. When he saved her.. she too began to fall for him. Its
the love they have for each other that I know when push comes to
shove the humans will not let them fight anyone alone. They love and
care for the aliens too much to not try and protect them. I can't
wait to see what happens with all of this. But what I really really
want to know is if knowing that Isabel and Michael were once
engaged, if that will change their relationship. If I remember when
they thought she was pregnant they didn't seem to have any of the
"sexual/lovers love" feelings. Are they now too brother and sisterly
to ever feel like that about each other again? Or no? What do you
think this will mean to Michael and Maria.. and Alex and Isabel?
Will Alex and Maria do the same as Liz and just let go of them for
at least a while? I really can't wait to see the humans fighting
aliens for the sake of their beloved ones.

TexasPride Level 2 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 75
05-17-2000 12:40 AM

TonyR and DocPaul: Loved your posts exactly what I have been
thinking as well.

Tess: I agree that Tess is more the spoiled brat because of how she
was raised and not particularly because she is pure evil. I do think
that lack of feeling for any of them but her desire to have it her
way will bring about her manipulating the situation. I do believe
she is the true 4th alien and that all 4 of them were supposed to
have been brought up together by ALL of the adult aliens on the
ship. The crash changed all of that. Nacedo hid the pods which I
believe were meant to be hatched in 1947 rather than 50 or so years
later. It was because they were hidden that their birth was put off
till later and they eventually hatched by themselves. They wander
around get found and thus begins their lives. However.. Tess had not
hatched yet. So they are split up, the 3 raised with humans and
given the gift of having each other for support as well. While Tess
is raised by Nacedo, whom I think was sent to be their bodyguard,
and in such their race chose someone that was rutheless and non
caring enough that he would kill anyone he'd have to protect the pod
squad.
Now I do think Liz, Maria, and Alex are meant to play a big part in
the mission BUT I do not think Liz is the reincarnation of anyone or
of any essence. What I think is that Max like any young human boy
(since he is mostly human and that is WHAT he knew) just developed a
crush on her. When he saved her.. she too began to fall for him. Its
the love they have for each other that I know when push comes to
shove the humans will not let them fight anyone alone. They love and
care for the aliens too much to not try and protect them. I can't
wait to see what happens with all of this. But what I really really
want to know is if knowing that Isabel and Michael were once
engaged, if that will change their relationship. If I remember when
they thought she was pregnant they didn't seem to have any of the
"sexual/lovers love" feelings. Are they now too brother and sisterly
to ever feel like that about each other again? Or no? What do you
think this will mean to Michael and Maria.. and Alex and Isabel?
Will Alex and Maria do the same as Liz and just let go of them for
at least a while? I really can't wait to see the humans fighting
aliens for the sake of their beloved ones.

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-17-2000 06:01 AM

bump

HollyLou Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 392
05-17-2000 06:59 AM

alwaysme-goldstars indicate your posts. Congrats-you lost your
Junior status.

I can't believe all duplicate posts. My post didn't show up for a
couple of HOURS!!

Elliot-I wish others at your NY(?) party would chime in on their
thoughts on comments by KKB. These SF threads can alomst be
considered spoiler threads as right on as the posts are!! I find it
hard to believe that we have been so off base! I agree that static
relationships can get boring fast but Kate is right. The love
triangle is so cliche. Liz having been altered in some way gives us
excitement and romance. Oh well, I trust the writers.

Posted by Nobody: In fact, they may be 'destined' to help others,
such as Liz, Maria, Alex and Kyle, to awaken their powers and to
join their cause. Max's saving of Liz in the pilot episode
apparently started awakening her potential; we have seen that in her
contact "visions" with Max (the psychic ability known as
'psychometry'). Kyle has
now had the same 'treatment'; he may now start to exhibit a new
psychic ability
because of it. I wouldn't be surprised if Kyle and Tess started a
fourth
relationship...

Nobody-I like that idea a lot. I guess I'm looking for a way to get
the humans involved besides running after their aliens saying "love
me, love me!"

[This message has been edited by HollyLou (edited 05-17-2000).]

peanut_and_me Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 180
05-17-2000 08:03 AM

Maybe Liz is now destined to help the "pod squad" in their dealings
with the enemy aliens. She was able to tell the difference between
the 2 Maxes, maybe she'll be the one to help them "see the evil
within" the other alien race (as M/I mom said).... just a thought.

I'm still confused as to why Liz and not any of the other characters
was the one to sense where the orb was buried. Assuming that the pod
squad was already engineered and incubating in the pods, then they
couldn't have been witness to or the point of view from which Liz's
visions occurred. So, what's causing these visions. I don't think
they are supressed memories of Max. But I'm failing to come up with
a plausible explanation of what they are.

And of course, I am still bothered by the whole timing issue of the
pods. Why did they "hatch" so long after the crash. Were the pods on
the ship, or did Nacedo create the pod chamber and do the cloning
here on earth, after he escaped the FBI special unit. Were they
meant to "hatch" as youngsters or did they come out too soon? And
why did it take Nacedo so long to find the 3?

And what the heck has Tess been calling Nacedo for the past 10
years? "Hey You?" "Dad"? She keeps calling him Nacedo when she talks
to the gang, but never calls him anything specific when she talks to
him directly.

Heart of Ice Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 378
05-17-2000 08:20 AM

quote:
Originally posted by tepp:
The fact that Liz and Max have freely chosen one another is an
important point that has received much emphasis. Liz's reaction to
what she saw in the pod chamber was predictable and noble.
... the word "betrothed" suggests and [is] consistent with a
monarchical, oligarchical, or similarly aristocratic political
structure. This kind of marriage tradition creates a conflict for
Max and his desire to be with someone (Liz) strictly for love. It's
one more choice between cultural obligation and free will. Also,
such a tradition could create a possible motive for Tess and/or
Nasedo to want to place an imposter in the role of Prince Max's
wife.

Tepp: I just love your posts - so thougtful and thought-provoking!
While I was saddened by Liz's leaving, it was the most noble thing
she could have done. Besdies, if I had been in that chamber and had
seen what she had, I'd be damned scared. Yikes! And to hear such a
message, well, who wouldn't doubt that a love, no matter how
profoundly confessed [as Max's was to Liz], might just stand in the
way of a more noble cause? I agree, too, with your notion that the
"Tess as young bride from another world" is yet another conflict for
our ever-conflicted Max. Though it really helps to know his love for
Liz is so deep. For a Dreamer, that is!

Gads, spending far too much time here this week. Thanks for such
insightfulness, Tepp. Great reading!

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-17-2000 08:47 AM

I'm at work, but I had a 'flash' in the bathtub this morning that I
wanted to share briefly: What if the 4th podster died and Tess is
impersonating her?

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-17-2000 08:54 AM

Whoops! As my mother would say, "Two great minds with but a single
thought," (see above).

wisters Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 339
05-17-2000 09:06 AM

Hi,

I am not putting up any new ideas on this thread right now because I
am at work and don't have the time, but....

I love this thread and look forward to reading it after each episode
but....

With all of the duplicate postings the thread is getting a little
cluttered. I think we Roswell fans are causing havoc on the boards
with all of our enthusiastic posting.

Just a suggestion, if you come back later and notice that one of
your posts posted multiple times you can go into your own posts and
delete the duplicates. I think this would make the thread easier to
get through .

Also any mods could do this as well, but they are very busy and we
should "pick up after ourselves" Do I sound like a mom here????

thanks,
Wisty

SunStar
Guest Registered: Not Yet Posts: N/A
05-17-2000 09:35 AM

Man! Getting on this board yesterday was totally impossible!! Even
when I did, I couldn�t post anything. I can see today that other
people had trouble too. There are triple and quadrupal posts! Could
it be because of Roswell??? Maybe we should get a third Roswell
Board up and running! Anyway, I�m afraid my post will be old by the
time I get it on!!! Oh well. I�m posting it anyway because I worked
really hard on it. Sorry it's so long, but there was a lot to say.

My nephew and I watched the season finale together. We really
enjoyed it and we�re looking forward to next season. I got him into
so much trouble because we were talking for over an hour about it.
He had school and was suppose to go to bed, but the episode was so
interesting & confusing to us we had to talk about it. (Don't worry,
he's a big boy and got up like he should the next morning.) Anyway,
once we got started, we couldn�t stop. We have so many questions and
I like a lot of the interpretations here. Very interesting. We both
agree there are now an infinite number of story lines for the show
now, but I'll just concentrate on "Destiny".

My nephew agreed with a lot of people here about Tess. He said
immediately that he thought Tess was altering the communication that
they all saw. He thinks something else was going on all together and
they weren't able to see it because of Tess. He feels Tess has known
all along how to use the orbs or what they were for. He feels
there's something wrong with her and she's deceiving the others
because she wants Max or maybe for some other ulterior motive. I
asked him to explain why he thought that and all he said was �it was
so obvious� to him because she admitted she can manipulate people�s
thoughts. He asked me how I could miss that! Smart @#%$&!!! I tend
to agree with him on this point to a certain extent. Those things
were communicators, but I don�t think they were suppose to do what
we saw last night in regards to Max & Isabelle�s mom showing up. I
think they were meant to call others to them, but like Nasedo said
they may call the wrong people (aliens) to them. If they did it too
soon they may not be prepared. So, I think I agree that Tess
manipulated the communicators to her advantage, knowing they were
only used to call others there to help them (or hurt them whatever
the case may be).

To me, Tess projects that she�s deceitful�period. After all, she
manipulated Max, Isabelle & Micheal�s thoughts right from the start.
Why? I don�t trust this one and she just doesn�t seem to fit in with
the other four at all. It may be that it was because she grew up
with Nasedo, but I agree with someone who said something might have
happened to her in the pod. Either way, I agree with my nephew and
people here that she�s not what she appears to be. And what about
the way she talks to Nasedo�like he�s her servant or something. To
me she acts like a spoiled child. That whole situation is just
really strange.

As for Nasedo, my nephew and I disagree about him. He thinks he�s a
good guy and I�m just not sure. He�s so strange!!! I never
understood why he avoided them when he first came into town after he
made it perfectly clear he�d been looking for them for so long?? So
why did he & Tess pretend they were someone else then? Nasedo & Tess
knew Max, Is & Michael were the ones they were looking for. I�m sure
of that. And why is he so vague about information the kids should
know. Well, I guess I found out last night. He�s just an employee
doing his job. Sounds like he�s a bodyguard and nothing more. The
kids are his boss and he�s the employee. Or is he? I don�t
understand why he didn�t tell them all that Max was their leader and
he was just �doing his job� from the very start. It seems strange
that he hasn�t told the others more or contacted them sooner. (And
even though I think Max is a leader, don't say that "mom" confirmed
that because Tess heard that and could have just used that to her
advantage.) He also made it perfectly clear to them they weren�t
ready to use the orbs, but he couldn�t stop them. Why? Because he
knew what would happen if they did? Or was he in on some kind of
secret with Tess. Or wasn�t he allowed to forbid them anything
because he was one of their loyal subjects? I really wonder what he
would have done if he were there when Max decided to use them. Would
he have tried to stop them or does Tess control him? Many, many
questions there.

We disagree about Max & Liz, Michael & Maria and Alex & Is. My
nephew thinks they will go through with what they were destined to
do. I strongly disagree. I know! He thinks Tess manipulated the
orbs, so why does he think they will follow their new destiny? I
asked him that and he said because they don�t know Tess did
that...yet. He also thinks it will be too late by the time they do
figure it all out and Liz, Maria and Alex will be too hurt. It will
be hard to convince Liz & the others that they went in the wrong
direction and that they regret it. He thinks Liz and the others will
find it hard to forgive them. Not that they�d hurt them in any way,
but it will cause conflict. Ok, I�ll give him that. Maybe two,
three, even four shows will go by before they really know who Tess
is...NOT! (as my nephew puts things!) I think the first scene we see
next season will be Max shaking Liz awake from a spell Tess put on
her. Because last night she told Liz in a round about way that she
only shows people things that they don�t see that are right in front
of �her� face. Yes, she says �HER�. So, she was up to something with
Liz from the start. Or, the end of the season finale will change
drastically on the next season�s opening show and Max will be
shoving Michael away and he�ll run after Liz. I do not think he will
follow his so-called �alien� destiny and the others will follow
suit. They are the main characters of the show! The story is about
them...together. I don�t believe that will change. I can�t believe
the writers or producers would do that. It would ruin the story in
my opinion. Besides, no one says or confirms that they have to be
with their destined alien mates? We are only told Max is the leader
and Michael the second in command. That Tess was Max�s bride and
Michael, Isabelle�s significant other. So why did they send Tess &
Isabelle at all? I did not hear �mom� say anything to the effect
that they HAD to be together. Yes, they were mates on their planet,
but this is not their planet. It�s earth. And that message is how
old? I mean, if they live, let�s say 50 light years away, the
conflict happened over 100 years ago! Second, they are mostly human.
Advanced humans if I remember Nasedo saying. So, why are they
destined to be together? To me, I only heard their mission was to
save their planet. Not mate. So, the destiny thing doesn�t fit
unless they are to return home to repopulate their planet. And if
Liz, Maria and Alex are human too, why not mate with them???? There
must have been some reason their �essence� was mixed with human DNA.
Yes, it may have been so they �fit in�, but I think there were other
reasons for that too. So I don�t think that will change. I�m sure
there will be a huge wrench thrown into the plot of the alien/human
relationships over and over again, but they will end up together.

Next is the hard to fathom area. We too were snickering at this
because, well, it�s so hard to believe. Sorry guys. Both of us agree
on this. If Tess did not manipulate the orbs or the others to see
what she wanted them to see, the message from �mom� was really
extreme. How, if they were cloned, can their mother say they live
again? Was it just a metaphor? I don�t think so. She meant they were
the SAME exact aliens that parished in the conflict on their planet,
only now they are reborn as human beings. I�m not really versed in
cloning, but I�m pretty sure we humans have not perfected the
cloning to a point where the cloned person, sheep, whatever has the
same thoughts as their gene

reg
Guest Registered: Not Yet Posts: N/A
05-17-2000 09:35 AM

twilightlurker Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 15
05-17-2000 02:33 PM

Some comments to the as-usual-wonderful insights of LSS and now
TEPP: So the four were sent to Earth to learn how to vanquish their
conquerors and return to free their people. Problems with this
scenario: Intergalactic travel (Whirlwind Galaxy to Milky Way is
much more than 55 million light years away). Even if we assume a
wormhole was used (don't forget wormholes are unstable - you don't
know where you are going to end up if you enter one - in theory at
least), and you enter it at warp speed 9 (sorry Star Trek), it would
take enough time to guarantee that their planet would have a
different race of inhabitants all together! If any at all - don't
forget their sun is a red sun - ready for extinction. It wouldn't be
feasible. Maybe the real reason the bad aliens are here is to
conquer our beautiful planet. I don't think they would follow the
kids because they are so scared of 4 of them or because they may
learn something in a backward planet at the outskirts of the galaxy.
If they had the power and resources to enslave themn, they are not
worried about them, leader's essence or not. Unless of course they
know something we don't: i.e. some humans (LIZ?????) have some sort
of power to unmask them, disable them, whatever. Otherwise, the pod
squad /humans wouldn't be so important. LSS says the plan is a bit
grandiose. Yes, it is, but if your only hope is your dead leader and
your resources are minimal maybe you would send him away no matter
how slim his chances are and you would send him to the one place in
the Universe where there may be the key to their survival/freedom.
Nasedo's group's mission, prior to crashing, was to bring them to
life, train them and protect them. What powers were they given to
accomplish their mission on Earth: humanoid brains thousands of
years ahead of present Homo-Sapiens (remember WR, Nasedo's tone was
one of admiration for our almost-not-used brains), and Nasedo's
group teaching them of their struggle, how to enhance their powers,
etc. There was no way for them to know that Fate/or the bad aliens,
would change their plans. The theory that Max will remember has
validity - his leader qualities among our six has already surfaced
in the first season. They will only be enhanced in years 2 to 7.
Liz/Maria/Alex are there to stop Tess/Nacedo from making them forget
their human side and keep them grounded. What would happen if the
squad learns how to vanquish their captors? They can't possibly
travel as they are - it would be impossible not only because the
time it would take to arrive would still be longer than 100
generations of Maxes but suppose they would and both races are still
there as slavers/slaves (100 million years light into the future),
we still don't know if their planet would be hospitable for humans -
maybe they breathe sulfuric acid vapors (in the books, Max has
remembrances of green acid clouds). Maybe their "water" equivalent
is liquid mercury - who knows? Despite what Michael would like to
believe, he wouldn't know the meaning of the word alien until he
arrived "home". I think that just as their essence was cloned (I am
thinking memories, DNA and cell patters using earthly elements),
likewise the squad's memories and knowledge could be cloned and sent
home. (There are always radio waves to send information, you know!).
The one thing I know for sure is that Max is not going anywhere!!!!!
What has begun? The reason for Season 2 to exist! If Sheriff Valenti
is on their side now, the only thing left to do would be for M/L,
M/M, I/A to go home, study, neck and dream prom dreams. There must
be conflict or even diehard fans would get bored (except for me -
give me SH over and over and over again!). I feel good about their
relationships (I even hold hope for Tess/Kyle now). Max is still
committed to his love for Liz. They will make us suffer until
episode 5 or 6 but there'll be a SH-2 then!. M/M's HW-2 will come on
ep 3 or 4 and I/A's 2 or 3, maybe. Max must regroup and redirect
their actions/options. That's all. The FBI is an ally now and
they'll be able to use their resources thanks to Hunk Conrad, excuse
me, Nasedo/Pierce and boy, will they come in handy! It should be
interesting to see how the writers make Liz important, even vital to
their struggle. She will not be a liability. Maybe she'll see an
aura around the bad aliens or touch them and feel a void. Max has to
seek her help.
On another note, I hope for M/L, M/M and I/A's sake that Nasedo's
group belongs to another race that caregives our squad's race,
because otherwise I am going to have nightmares about what Babies
Evans, Guerin and Whitman are going to look like!!!

Heart of Ice Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 378
05-17-2000 02:37 PM

quote:

been trying to kill these damned double posts.

twilightlurker Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 15
05-17-2000 02:42 PM

Some comments to the as-usual-wonderful insights of LSS and now
TEPP: So the four were sent to Earth to learn how to vanquish their
conquerors and return to free their people. Problems with this
scenario: Intergalactic travel (Whirlwind Galaxy to Milky Way is
much more than 55 million light years away). Even if we assume a
wormhole was used (don't forget wormholes are unstable - you don't
know where you are going to end up if you enter one - in theory at
least), and you enter it at warp speed 9 (sorry Star Trek), it would
take enough time to guarantee that their planet would have a
different race of inhabitants all together! If there is any life
left there - don't forget their sun is red - ready for extinction.
It wouldn't be feasible. Maybe the real reason the bad aliens are
here is to conquer our beautiful planet. I don't think they would
follow the kids because they are so scared of 4 of them or because
they may learn something in a backward planet at the outskirts of
the galaxy. If they had the power and resources to enslave them,
they are not worried about them, leader's essence or not. Unless of
course they know something we don't: i.e. some humans (LIZ?????)
have some sort of power to unmask them, disable them, whatever.
Otherwise, the pod squad /humans wouldn't be so important. LSS says
the plan is a bit grandiose. Yes, it is, but if your only hope is
your dead leader and your resources are minimal maybe you would send
him away no matter how slim his chances are and you would send him
to the one place in the Universe where he may find the key to their
survival/freedom. Nasedo's group's mission, prior to crashing, was
to bring them to life, train them and protect them. What powers were
they given to accomplish their mission on Earth?: humanoid brains
thousands of years ahead of present Homo-Sapiens (remember WR,
Nasedo's tone was one of admiration for our almost-not-used brains),
and Nasedo's group teaching them of their struggle, how to enhance
their powers, etc. There was no way for them to know that Fate/or
the bad aliens, would change their plans. The theory that Max will
remember has validity - his leadershiP qualities among our six have
already surfaced in the first season - they will only be enhanced in
years 2 to 7. Liz/Maria/Alex are there to stop Tess/Nacedo from
making them forget their human side and keep them grounded. What
would happen if the squad learns how to vanquish their captors? They
can't possibly travel as they are - it would be impossible not only
because the time it would take to arrive would be longer than 100
generations of Maxes but suppose they would and both races are still
there as slavers/slaves (100 million years light into the future),
we still don't know if their planet would be hospitable for humans -
maybe they breathe sulfuric acid vapors (in the books, Max has
remembrances of green acid clouds). Maybe their "water" equivalent
is liquid mercury - who knows? Despite what Michael would like to
believe, he wouldn't know the meaning of the word alien until he
arrived "home". I think that just as their essence was cloned (I am
thinking memories, DNA and cell patters using earthly elements),
likewise the squad's memories and knowledge could be cloned and sent
home. (There are always radio waves to send information, you know!).
The one thing I know for sure is that Max is not going anywhere!!!!!
What has begun? The reason for Season 2 to exist! If Sheriff Valenti
is on their side now, the only thing left to do would be for M/L,
M/M, I/A to go home, study, neck and dream prom dreams. There must
be conflict or even diehard fans would get bored (except for me -
give me SH over and over and over again!). I feel good about their
relationships (I even hold hope for Tess/Kyle now). Max is still
committed to his love for Liz. They will make us suffer until
episode 5 or 6 but there'll be a SH-2 then!. M/M's HW-2 will come on
ep 3 or 4 and I/A's 2 or 3, maybe. Max must regroup and redirect
their actions/options. That's all. The FBI is an ally now and
they'll be able to use their resources thanks to Hunk Conrad, excuse
me, Nasedo/Pierce and boy, will they come in handy! It should be
interesting to see how the writers make Liz important, even vital to
their struggle. She will not be a liability. Maybe she'll see an
aura around the bad aliens or touch them and feel a void. Max has to
seek her help.
On another note, I hope for M/L, M/M and I/A's sake that Nasedo's
group belongs to another race that caregives our squad's race,
because otherwise I am going to have nightmares about what Babies
Evans, Guerin and Whitman are going to look like!!!

Heart of Ice Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 378
05-17-2000 02:44 PM

These double posts are killin' me:

Hey, speaking of "Sci-Fi of" this weird thing with the Board didn't
really start till Tess the WonderBi*ch showed up, did they? Or is it
just my imagination . . .

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-17-2000 02:56 PM

Hi folks,

Just a note to say that I've finished the SF Review for Destiny
(since I submitted this morning it should be up within the next day)
and will be back on this thread once I finish the one for White
Room.

FYI the review for Destiny also has a two page treatment of "Good SF
vs. Poor/Silly SF: Some End of Season Reflections on Roswell" where
I address Kevin Brown's comments on the SF dimension of Roswell (see
some of Elliot's early posts on this thread). In this I reflect on:

1) Good Science Fiction: The Power to Manipulate Molecules.
2) Poor Science Fiction: Liz's Visions.
3) Silly Science Fiction: The Save the Planet Mandate.

Hope you enjoy!

See you on the boards in a day or so.

LSS

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-17-2000 03:39 PM

Is Mom's communication necessarily a hologram from long ago? I
recall her opening with something like "If you are hearing this, it
means you are still alive..."
Perhaps it's like a mom with a cell phone and her kid with a pager.

Alienwatcher Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 35
05-17-2000 07:40 PM

The vision of Max and Isabelle's mother, which I believe was true,
said nothing in regard to Tess being Max's destiny. Only that Mom
sent his "young bride" with him to earth. If Max was his planets
beloved leader, maybe that makes him royality, like a king, and as
with most royal marriages it was arranged. The may not be nor never
had been any "love" between Max and Tess. Maybe the marriage was
arranged between two warring planets as a means to peace, but it
didn't work and the ememy planet attacked. That would help explain
the physical differences between Max, Michael and Isabelle with
Tess. She is actually a different alien race.

Alienwatcher Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 35
05-17-2000 07:45 PM

The vision of Max and Isabelle's mother, which I believe was true,
said nothing in regard to Tess being Max's destiny. Only that Mom
sent his "young bride" with him to earth. If Max was his planets
beloved leader, maybe that makes him royality, like a king, and as
with most royal marriages it was arranged. The may not be nor never
had been any "love" between Max and Tess. Maybe the marriage was
arranged between two warring planets as a means to peace, but it
didn't work and the ememy planet attacked. That would help explain
the physical differences between Max, Michael and Isabelle with
Tess. She is actually a different alien race.

tepp Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 152
05-17-2000 07:46 PM

Howdy. This post has only to do with the SciFi of the FanForum Board
where a wormhole occasionally appears to be eating posts but then a
day later they show up here in the Alpha Quadrant after having
seemingly been held in some kind of space/time void in the Bermuda
Triangle for as much as a day or more.

In English: to avoid double, triple, quadruple, and bipedal posts,
always assume your post went through -- even when you get an error
message (e.g. "document contains no data" in Netscape). I have
thought many times that my posts had been "lost," but the fact is
that I've never lost one. They all show up eventually. When the
board gets busy (mostly due to the overwhelming amount of activity
of Roswell fans), it does really weird things. Sometimes it can take
24 hours or more for any new posts to be visible on certain threads.
Don't panic. They will eventually appear. So again, when you click
"submit reply" assume your post is going to go through. If you don't
quickly get the "thank you" message and redirect, just wait about
five minutes and forget it. Do not repost or you will duplicate your
first effort. Anyway, this has been my experience. If you're really
afraid of losing the work you put into a post, copy and paste it
into a word processor or text editor and save it. Better yet,
compose it in one of these programs and paste it into the post
window.

On Roswell: I'm glad to hear so many people arguing against standard
plot cliches. Roswell has fallen prey to some of these already, but
one of things that has made it so good is that it avoids them pretty
well -- or at leat it did. I never want to see Roswell devolve into
the kind of cheap, incestuous soap-opera tricks we see on other
shows like Buffy and Dawson's Creek. I understand that a plot only
exists because of conflict, but I will never accept the kind of
total reversals I've seen on these other shows. It's time for
Roswell to break new ground, and it's important for the writers and
producers to be reminded that we didn't send all those letter, ship
all that tobasco, and collect all that money in order to create a
"new" Roswell. We did all that -- and guaranteed they had jobs for
another year -- to save the show we fell in love with from the
start, to validate the plotlines they asked us to invest in, and to
reap the promise inherent in that story. They may be dependent on WB
execs and ratings and what-not, but they OWE US that much. I hope
they remember who it was that saved their show.

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-17-2000 08:12 PM

posting to see if I can bump missing posts into existence

Jodi Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 265
05-17-2000 09:05 PM

Oy!

[This message has been edited by Jodi (edited 05-18-2000).]

Jodi Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 265
05-17-2000 09:10 PM

Mary had a little lamb . . .

[This message has been edited by Jodi (edited 05-18-2000).]

Jodi Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 265
05-17-2000 09:15 PM

Next?

[This message has been edited by Jodi (edited 05-18-2000).]

Faith Evans Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 37
05-17-2000 09:19 PM

quote:
Originally posted by spiritwolf:
Maybe we are.
Maybe the very existance we have always known ... war, poverty,
answering to higher, unseen governmental authorities is a version of
enslavement. Enslavement doesn't have to include chains and whips.
What if the other aliens were sophisticated enough to be pulling the
strings of banks and governments. Like say, political parties do.
Maybe the have been operating behind the curtain for a very long
time.

Interesting idea but to what end, I mean what do they get out of all
this deception. Why not takeover outright?

And as far as this whole bad alian thing, who�s to say that our trio
plus 1�s, people are the enslavers not the enslaved, and our poor
trio are pawns in some grand scheme for earth.

Maybe the aliens already here just want a life that has nothing to
do with the trio�s government, from the ending in Destiny we see
that these other aliens (I�m not ready to call them evil yet.) are
every where on Earth from the suburbs, to major cities, rural
area�s, well every corner of this planet. They must have known the
trio�s government would be sending a force to stop them and bring
back to the fold or just plain destroy them. What better way then
sending a small force indistinguishable from humans. Whose
difference can only be detected threw extensive medical exams, which
they can�t perform on everyone they meet, in other words the perfect
cover.

Although why go threw the whole trouble of lying in the first place
to our trio plus 1 you might ask, well maybe they realize that by
making them human and raising them around humans, some humanity
would have had to creep in to them despite the best intentions of
their caretakers if all had indeed gone as planed. So they added
this guilt thing (Lives are on the line no time to think just do�)
to ensure they never turn against the cause, if for some reason they
started to question it.

Oh well, Either way if they decided to do this, it�s not something
they will reveal to us any time soon, more likely it�ll be something
far in the future once they have come to terms with everything and
their so deep working for their cause, something then would then pop
up to make them question everything and the poor gang will be back
at square one not knowing what or who to trust anymore.

Well enough rambling, I hope I made some sense, if not feel free to
completely ignore me here.

Faith Evans

Jodi Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 265
05-17-2000 09:22 PM

Snark alert, and not just because of the wonky board!!!

Before I kinda sorta change the subject, on the Kevin Brown front,
the feeling I got was that he was interested in good television--if
that happened to come from "sound" non-contradictory
non-been-there-done-that sci-fi or Romeo and Juliet retread, it
didn't make much difference to him. IMO that's fine and dandy. He
has his fun; I have mine. I'd much rather snicker at Laura the
exposition fairy than have to watch any more than we already do of
the hocus pocus. Dreamwalks, footballs, crystals, oh my!

On to that other subject. Does it crack anyone else up that the only
way we, right down to the writers, can imagine this oh so different
PLANET is structured socially is in varying degrees of patriarchy?
Yes, yes, I know it's a metaphor or reflection, and I love to watch
boys doing derring do quite a bit more than the next guy. But just
ONCE before I die, I'd like to see a prophesy where the chickies
rule the roost!

Let's recount, shall we? (And no smiling at thoughts of what
consititutes an alien's "essence".) Max was sent to be the savior of
his race. Michael was sent to be his right hand man. Izzy, at least,
was sent to be a female warrior, if that spoilerage actually made it
onscreen--can't remember. (Note that Global Xena or no, gender is an
intergalactic universal exactly like ours, hence the handy dandy
"female" clarification. Obviously we can't all be warriors.) And
Tess? Well, Tess was sent to, what, keep Max connubially toasty? Bat
her reconstituted eyelashed in her boingey blond way? Oy! I'm no fan
of Tess, but I think the bottom line is that this is what happens
when plot device is passed off as character. She's an obstacle and
nothing more.

Here's to hoping Izzy gets to kick more bad guy butt next season. Or
at least make a decision or two on her own. I think we've done the
Izzy referees while Max and Michael take turns playing Lone Ranger
scenario to death, don't you?

Faith Evans Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 37
05-17-2000 09:25 PM

Killing a double post here, Ignore this.

[This message has been edited by Faith Evans (edited 05-17-2000).]

Jodi Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 265
05-17-2000 09:27 PM

Okay, apparently Beeping Howie has invaded the system . . .

[This message has been edited by Jodi (edited 05-18-2000).]

Jodi Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 265
05-17-2000 09:34 PM

It lied to me! Honest!

[This message has been edited by Jodi (edited 05-18-2000).]

Michelle in Yonkers Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 34
05-17-2000 10:54 PM

Just signed on; really enjoyed the posts (so glad to find other
obsessed devotees like myself!), especially those of tepp, LSS,
Kate6058...

The show (until recently) has always been well-written, character
driven, and like the best of sci-fi, not just about events (even
amorous events) but about ideas (Examples: the aliens as a metaphor
for alienation; what is it to be truly human?; should you listen to
your friends, even your parents, or listen to your heart?; etc.).
There've been so many events crammed into the last few episodes,
that even the few ideas that were raised weren't examined, and the
interesting questions that were asked were ignored. (Example: the
idea of Nazism - - what makes someone like Pierce tick? I didn't
think either the show *or* the actor really dealt with that, and if
they weren't going to really get into it, they shouldn't have made
us go through it.)

So here are some ideas/ predictions for next season (not unique, I
know):
1) Still don't trust Tess
2) Where's that other alien, anyway? The one who was imprisoned and
tortured by the FBI for 3 years?
3) What if (I'm really wedded to this one) Max's healing *really did
change Liz*? Has she had a blood test lately? Maybe there was some
crucial alien mating/ bonding period (like ducks patterning), when
all the V-constellation stuff was going on, etc.; and maybe the
bonding that was supposed to happen only among the 4 pod alumni went
askew, and they bonded with humans, not with each other.

Max definitely bonded with *Liz*. After all, when they found the
orb, it was Liz who led him to it, Liz receiving the images, and
when they found it, the orb activated! So it doesn't take Max + Tess
to activate the orb. And Isobel and Michael bonded as well, but with
Alex and Maria.

Liz must be part alien, anyway, because what human woman would walk
away from Max? No one, absolutely *nobody* is that noble! (Speaking
only for myself, I'd have to be dead.)

And think what Liz is leaving him to! A terrible struggle with the
forces of evil, with only *Tess* at his side, instead of her! (And
the only occasional holographic appearance of Glinda the Good
Witch!)

I hope they manage to get themselves out of the corner they're
painted into; that would mean not turning into a Buffy- Angel-
Charmed "new monster every episode" action fest; I hope they remain
really true to sci-fi and remember to explore the ideas which are
what drew us in the first place, and what keep us coming back.

tepp Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 152
05-17-2000 11:21 PM

I apologise for this off-topic request, but I need your help. I
finally did something I should have done months ago. I created a
thread concerning something my WB affiliate -- KKYK Little Rock --
is doing that must be stopped. In the long run, helping me do this
will benefit everyone because if they continue to get away with it
other stations will inevitably follow suit. Rather than duplicate
the posts on that thread (and ruin the suspense I've engineered to
get you to go there and read it), I ask that you read my first post
there ("Important Message for Little Rock . . .) and post a brief
reply to help keep it on the front page for a few days so as many
Little Rock residents as possible can see it. Feel free to go back
as much as you like and offer support, criticism, whatever.

Again, I apologise for asking this, but I truly believe it's
important (LSS, if you haven't already you're going to see whether
I'm exaggerating or not). Thanks so much for your indulgence.

Michelle in Yonkers Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 34
05-17-2000 11:29 PM

Nice post Jodi; good points. Snicker Quotient: I for one was
enthralled to note, from Mommy Ex Machina, that the Maybelline
franchise is doing so well back on the HomeWorld.

Nasedo: why did he bother to dally with Liz? To take the time, while
decoying Pierce no less, for a close encounter, a little off-road
wrestling of the distinctly non-Greco/Roman kind? (Interesting
possible plotline, that he's developed human passions - - lust,
ambition, jealousy, envy, to name a few - - because he's lived so
long in human form. It's been a staple of sci-fi since the B-grade
progenitors in the 50s, and was the plot of at least one out of
every 3 eps of the original Star Trek.)

To spite Max? Or maybe because he's tired of being a servant?
Liz: Do you have to be Max?
Nasedo: Oh, I like it! To be him? To be 17? Besides, I don't think
you would have been as friendly to Ed Harding!

He also clearly tells her (later), "It's true. Tess and Max were
made to be together." Doesn't make him right, of course, if he's got
a hidden agenda.

Interestingly, his actions to "protect" the group often seem to have
the opposite effect. For instance, all the killing: with a
handprint, no less? Ever hear how easy it is for people to acquire
illegal handguns? Or he could just strangle them, and leave their
internal organs medium rare. Neither of these methods would alert
the FBI.

And it was his "plan" that put Max in Pierce's hands. After all his
insistance to Michael that "one has to do things exactly according
to plan," he stays behind to finally get his hands on Pierce (or
hand, as the case may be) - - and then botches it? He seems
singularly inept.

Presumably Pierce had all kinds of secret knowledge, because someone
like that *needs* to have secret knowledge: like computer files and
codes and accesses, secret security stuff - not to mention the names
of Pierce's agents. Taking someone's physical appearance doesn't
give Nasedo an insight into their minds, or into their bone marrow.

Interesting in that, after a whole season's suspense, Nasedo remains
an enigma.

[This message has been edited by Michelle in Yonkers (edited
05-17-2000).]

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-18-2000 12:31 AM

Hmmm....maybe Nasedo kissed Liz to read her thoughts and find out
what we've all been wondering about: how did the healing and
soul/past sharing pan out?

And maybe he inadvertently discovered the pleasure side of kissing
(in spite of his Stoic ways).

I still think Tess could turn out to be the 4th alien after all.
Regardless, all this comparison of eye color, stature, and curls
gives me the creeps. Sounds like you guys are Spencerian racists.
Maybe you're right, but just had to express that thought/feeling.

And, on another plane/thought: Why a hologram when Scientic American
is talking about Quantum Teletransport? Beam me up space Mother.

Finally: Say it again Tepp (no, no, just kidding, don't resend it!):
Ignore the error messages and assume your reply went in order to
avoid multiple postings. Let's have a little less ego (this to
myself) and more trust in the destiny of successful posts.

And to all a Goodnight.

223hrc Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 52
05-18-2000 02:25 AM

DocPaul -

I agree with 99.9% of what you've said. Those were basically the
same thoughts I've been thinking - I just wasn't as articulate or
detailed as you were!

BTW, have a marvelous vacation!

223hrc Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 52
05-18-2000 02:44 AM

I haven't completely read through this thread, so I'm sorry if I
missed a clarification or two.

Elliott, thanks for your posts about Kevin Brown's comments. It just
goes to show how easy it is to jump to conclusions or read into what
is being shown - when sometimes "we can't see what is right in front
of us" - the plain and simple truth of a scene. However, I wish they
would concoct a decent explanation of why Liz has visions and no one
else does.

As for Emilie being added to the opening credits, if she is going to
stick around for a full season, I think she should be added to the
credits. I understand respecting the original cast, but cast changes
are a part of the game and she deserves recognition, just as much as
anyone else.

223hrc Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 52
05-18-2000 03:00 AM

Sorry to keep jumping in like this, w/o finishing the whole thread
before responding.

I believe that Nasedo's job is to watch over the pod squad. I'm also
going with the theory that the crash changed everything, especially
the timing of M/M/I coming out of the pod chamber. I think Nasedo
came back to the pods to find that three of them were empty with no
idea what could have happened to our trio. Along with waiting for
Tess to "hatch", he was on the hunt for M/M/I while running away
from the FBI special unit.

I don't buy the theory that Liz was reincarnated or that she belongs
to an alien race. She is what she appears to be - human. Although,
again, I'd like a decent explanation of why she has visions...

Michael will be trying to work out where his destiny truly lies and
I think he will make some type of attempt at bonding with Isabel. In
the end though, I can't see it happening because of the total
bro/sis bond they've had going for so long.

223hrc Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 52
05-18-2000 03:11 AM

1. Again, they need to provide a decent explanation of all the
things that Liz has been experiencing.

2. Great questions Peanut!! I was wondering the same thing myself
regarding the pods and timing!!

3. Totally agree - what DOES Tess call Nasedo? She never calls him
by name when she is speaking directly to him and yet refers to him
as Nasedo in the group.

I should go to bed...and stop posting so many different comments.
*slinking away*

quote:
Originally posted by peanut_and_me:
I'm still confused as to why Liz and not any of the other characters
was the one to sense where the orb was buried. Assuming that the pod
squad was already engineered and incubating in the pods, then they
couldn't have been witness to or the point of view from which Liz's
visions occurred. So, what's causing these visions. I don't think
they are supressed memories of Max. But I'm failing to come up with
a plausible explanation of what they are.

And of course, I am still bothered by the whole timing issue of the
pods. Why did they "hatch" so long after the crash. Were the pods on
the ship, or did Nacedo create the pod chamber and do the cloning
here on earth, after he escaped the FBI special unit. Were they
meant to "hatch" as youngsters or did they come out too soon? And
why did it take Nacedo so long to find the 3?

And what the heck has Tess been calling Nacedo for the past 10
years? "Hey You?" "Dad"? She keeps calling him Nacedo when she talks
to the gang, but never calls him anything specific when she talks to
him directly.

RoswellianFreak Registered: May 2000 Posts: 6
05-18-2000 03:51 AM

WHo here is of alien blood? hehe, i am, neway, before this show
started i used to be one of those alien obssessives, looking fer the
truth, and found out alot,(confidential stuff)so when i saw the
previews fer the Roswell show u can guess what i watched evry wed at
9 or now monday at 9, so im kinda obsessed, hehehe, and i even saw a
u.f.o. once, cool huh

JanetMG Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 215
05-18-2000 04:24 AM

LOL Jodi--loved "Laura the Exposition Fairy" The patriarchy thing
bugged me, too. Seeing how they're handling all the cliches,
however, I'm not ready to see them try The Gates to Women's Country.

If Liz is completely human and MM&I's powers are human, does that
make Max a catalyst telepath? That is, a person with psi abilities
that triggers the development of psi powers in other people.

HollyLou Level 3 Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 392
05-18-2000 10:21 AM

quote:
Originally posted by tepp:
to avoid double, triple, quadruple, and bipedal posts, always assume
your post went through -- even when you get an error message (e.g.
"document contains no data" in Netscape). I have thought many times
that my posts had been "lost," but the fact is that I've never lost
one.

Thanks for posting that, tepp. My post took almost 24hours to show
up on Tuesday! I can proudly say that I've never had a dup post
because I know that once I hit sumbit it's gonna get there
eventually.

Marty Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 279
05-18-2000 11:44 AM

This is my first time posting on a SF thread, and I have a ton to
say, so I am going to do it in multiple posts. The first thing I
want to address is the Pierce/Nasedo storyline. I personally am
extremely excited by this twist. I love David Conrad, and ecstatic
that he will be returning next season. I see a couple of possible
agendas for him.

1) A few people have said that they do not understand what
Pierce/Nasedo can do to stop the FBI from pursuing The Pod Squad. My
first thought was that he could redirect the investigation to focus
on the impending arrival of the evil aliens. He now has the entire
FBI at his disposal, and will be invaluable to the �fight�. (I am
saving my mandate vent for another post.) I personally think this is
one of the easier areas to overcome. From what we have been told,
Pierce answers to no one. He doesn�t have a right hand man to
question his activities, just a bunch of nameless FBI goons to order
around. I am not seeing anyone who would question his actions.

2) The search has begun. =) Now that Nasedo has assumed Pierce�s
identity, and has access to all the FBI files. He will be able to do
a couple very important, and in my opinion very cool, things - Find
the ship and the other members of their party. Currently we do not
know if the other alien that was captured alive is still alive, but
we can be certain that the other two are on ice somewhere. Once they
get their hands on them, they can use the healing stones to
regenerate or reanimate them. I think it is safe to say that the
ship is probably damaged beyond use, but it would still be cool if
they got their hands on it. I have this image of it being lost, but
yet somewhere right under everyone�s noses. Or like the Ark of the
Covenant in Raiders, locked away in some warehouse somewhere.

As for the hand scanner deal, I understood that to be just that
facility. They never really said it, but do you guys think that was
Area 51? I am leaning towards not, that would be SO anti-climatic.
Okay, I am going to do a little venting on the mandate. I think it
is really unfortunate that they are going that route, when there is
so much more to be done with just the Roswell myth. They have
painted this very vague image of what happened, and I think it is
sad that they are not focusing on their very interesting past. I
personally want them to tell us exactly what went down with Atherton
and Hubble�s wife, not to mention all the other victims. I am hoping
that they do not abandon continuity for the sake of higher ratings.
That would be really sad.

Lala79 Level 1 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 10
05-18-2000 01:28 PM

Okay on page three someone mentioned how weird Nasedo and Tess acted
when they first met M,M and I. That bothered me too. If Nasedo and
Tess are who they are suppose to be then Why did Nasedo freak out
when Tess brought Isabel to their house. That whole scene of Nasedo
and Tess in the kitchen just doesn't sit right with me. He bugging
out about having Isabel in their home. What was the big deal? And if
he didn't want visitors why was he so insistant on Liz staying for
dinner? Why couldn't he just grill Isabel about Max? I mean Max is
Isabel's brother.

Oh and I was really hoping that Tess did manipulate the whole
communicater thing but I've watched Destiny over and over again and
Tess has her eyes open during the entire scene (assuming that she
closes her eyes everytime she creates her images) She truly seemed
to believe everything that alien mom was saying.

I don't know there are so many questions and so few answers. I read
on another thread a really interesting point about venus and the V
shape and the five stars and maybe Liz being the fith (it's way to
much for me to describe and I don't want to get the theory wrong)
that sounded pretty interesting.

Anyway those are just my thoughts and now I have to get back to
work. Please if anyone else remembers that scene w/Nasedo and Tess
please respond. I would love an explantion about why he was freaking
out about having Isabel in the house and why he was so interested in
keeping Liz around?

MEP Level 2 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 85
05-18-2000 04:17 PM

What a great idea to start this thread! Since I'm really in the mood
for a rant right now, I'll take advantage of it.

As a sceptic, I'll admit to having reservations about certain SF
elements (the current trend towards uncritical acceptance of
pseudo-scientific notions worries me). But, ultimately, all I really
ask for (in regular fiction as well as in sci-fi) is meaning,
significance (sterlingsilver, I think we are once again on the same
wavelength). I want the story to say something interesting about
life and the human condition, whether it does so through the SF
angle or through the characters and their interactions
(incidentally, I've even found those to be rather formulaic and
contrived lately).

I can accept something as improbable as molecular manipulation as
long as it remains a device cleverly used to enhance the show's
central theme of alienation. But when such powers are said to be
those of "evolved humans", that not only augments the scientific
improbability factor, it also diminishes the alien/human dichotomy -
if their powers are no longer symbolic of the fact that they are
different, alien, then they become just another gimmick (OK, yes,
they are still different, but "evolved human different" does not
have the same impact as "alien different").

Liz's visions worked wonderfully as a sexual metaphor. But when
these visions, aside from being symbolic orgasms, also contain
information which leads them to the orbs and the nature and origin
of this information is never again addressed and explained, that
bugs me. Yes, this may be all be clarified next season (it better
be!) but the fact that it was completely ignored for six episodes is
disturbing.

Continuity and internal consistency have been problematic since the
very beginning. While the focus was on romance, it was easy to just
ignore that. But with the new emphasis on SF/action and the
unreasonable increase in pace (which, IMO, has been detrimental to
both the sci-fi aspects of the show and to the credibility of the
characters and their relationships), such problems are no longer
tolerable.

Lately, the writers have thrown all sorts of (potentially
interesting and revealing) suggestions at us and never truly
explored any of them. They could have used Tess to intensify the
dilemma of human vs. alien, normal vs. different, free will vs.
predetermination that M/M/I are facing and the shape-shifter to look
into the relationship between matter, form and mind. They could've
investigated the implications of possible peculiarities in the
aliens' perception of time (the precognition and time lapses in TLV
and FS) relative to the notion of destiny. And they could've used
Pierce to examine the psychological underpinnings of intolerance and
the fascist phenomenon (what gives some people such clarity, such
conviction that what they are doing is right and that their ultimate
goal justifies all their actions? And does that really make them
evil?). For that matter, they could've used the parallel between
Nasedo and Pierce to question the universality of our concept of
morality (their actions are basically similar, they both feel
entitled to kill and manipulate people as they see fit, but the fact
that Nasedo is an alien may mean that he is not subject to our rules
and cannot be judged in the same way as Pierce). In my estimation,
they haven't adequately exploited any of these opportunities.

What do we get instead? Pierce is this stereotypical sadistic
blockhead (I thought he was supposed to be super smart? What
happened to that?). Tess comes across as your average soap-opera
bimbo/vixen, which makes her and, implicitly, M/M/I's alien side,
too easy to dismiss. And Nasedo... well, at least the potential is
still there with him (now if only they'd make him turn into Max more
often - that's when he's at his most interesting). And then there's
"Your essence was duplicated, cloned and mixed with human genetic
material to recreate you as human beings" (or something like that).
Huh? What "essence" are they talking about? What sort of
pseudo-rationalist metaphysical nonsense are we supposed to swallow
here? How does one duplicate this essence? Through cloning?? Is this
essence then inherent in the genetic material? Are the aliens
card-carrying genetic determinists who dismiss the importance of
one's experiences? And if that's the case, how can they think that
this essence will persist when the genetic material has been
changed, combined with human DNA? If there's something more than
cloning going on here, what is it? Metempsychosis??? Aaarggh!

Another perfect example of the carelessness and superficiality which
characterizes the plot of the last few episodes (I'm sure other
people have already remarked on this): in WR, they tell us that
Nasedo cannot alter his skeletal structure to imitate that of humans
and cannot get past the security scanners. Why they felt this was
really necessary, I have no idea. Then, in the very next episode,
he's supposed to take Pierce's place in order to allow the kids to
remain in Roswell (which, as far as I can see, is really the only
way they could fix THAT ONE) and the writers blithely ignore the
fact that he won't be able to get into the alien hunters'
facilities! Grrrr!!

Last but not least, the whole enslaved planet/fight for
freedom/chosen ones stuff has been done before. Do we really need to
see a different take on the "Star Wars" themes? And is that sort of
thing at all believable or advisable in the "Roswell" context (great
analysis, LSS)? I mean, the whole point of the show was that these
were teenagers trying to find their place in the universe, as we all
do. If their place turns out to be that of intergalactic heroes
whose destiny is to fight evil aliens (while they remain honour
students??), I for one can no longer identify with them.

So my sympathy for a hoax theory is not really motivated by
Tess-hatred (admittedly, given the way she's been portrayed so far,
I would not shed any tears were she to spontaneously combust). It is
motivated by my need for a reasonably innovative and meaningful
storyline with some logic, consistency and credibility to it (I
know, easier said than done).

To summarize, "success" is certainly NOT how I would describe the
last few episodes, certainly not from a creative point of view. As
for commercial succes... Yes, the ratings have gone up, particularly
in certain demographics. But how can they know that the cause was
the revamping of the show? Maybe the move to Mondays is solely
responsible for the improvement. Maybe the show just finally started
to gain momentum. Maybe the ratings would have improved even if they
had left [more than] good enough alone. We just don't know!

What really drives me insane is that I still believe that the
creators of this show DO have the intelligence and creativity
required to keep it interesting. Which is why I may sometimes be
unfairly harsh - I expect "Roswell" to live up to standards that I
don't usually apply to TV shows. I can only assume that the
pressures from the WB distracted them from their original vision and
design for the show and hope that they can get back on track next
season. Hiring SF writers is one step in the right direction.
Slowing down, starting to think things through more carefully and
actually dealing with some of the issues they bring up is another.

Blah, blah, blah... I need to get a life!

sterlingsilver Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 383
05-18-2000 04:22 PM

Just trying to resurrect posts . .

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-18-2000 08:05 PM

Okay I was watching my ep in slo-mo and here is a few things I
noticed-when Isabel and Liz walk into the UFO MUSEUM they are
holding hands-the camera pans down to their feet walking and against
the ground you can see almost like an attachment(one to the other)
It looks interesting-I am not sure if it means anything or not but
why pan down there if it didn't---also in same scene as they go to
walk up the stairs the camera pans around the room right beside the
RC COLA sign there is someone watching-not quite sure who it is but
if I were to guess I would say it was the cook from LEAVING NORMAL
who blew Maria a kiss when she said anything ready for me? I am not
sure of his name. Does anyone know it? You can only see this in
extreme slo-mo guys. But it is definitely not MAX MICHAEL SHERIFF OR
PIERCE!
What does this mean? Well I am not sure I have guessed that some
employees at the crashdown have been watching over things like
protectors maybe.

Has anyone else noticed that Michaels powers have improved since
Tess and Nasedo are around and that Michael makes that same motion
with his arm extended as Nasedo. I am still nursing that theory of
mine about Michael coming from this other alien group along with
Tess and Nasedo.

I still am of the belief that Liz is Max's true destiny and her
being shot was no accident--of course Max came in and saved her much
to whoever's dismay-Liz and Max's biological drives were set off by
the V constellation and they found the orb because they were suppose
to---the teacher warning don't let anything come between you and the
beauty of the universe. Tess shows up next episode and Nasedo with
the power to create warped visions on them. Trying to muck up Max
and Isabel's true destiny-which could have been to be with humans
all along-not sure. I do think that Liz is completely human-I cannot
explain all the science yet!

As for MOTHER from the ORB(this could be a concoction of TESS AND
NASEDO) Nasedo did not try to get them not to use the orbs hard
enough as far as I was concerned almost like he wanted them to be
used! (PART OF ME WANTS THIS SAVE THE PLANET THING TO BE A HOAX) but
even if it is not and what the mother said was true she could have
been talking about Max's bride being Liz and Tess showed them false
visions of her in the pod. I always felt it was faked-that is why
they needed pics of them as children--since I believe Michael is one
of them they would not need his pic but MAX AND ISABELS pics they
did need from MRS EVANS but the problem is that there are
discrepancies-ISabel remembers from b4 the her hair was shorter than
TESS INDUCED memories and even Max was younger in his recollection
than TESS INDUCED one! This could be how they figure out that it was
a hoax.

As far as I am concerned Max should already be questioning the
validity of everything since Nasedo kidnapped Liz why would he trust
him? I certainly hope since they would like to play Max as a leader
that he shows that he is not duped into this. I hope he goes right
to Liz with the suspicion that all is not right with what they have
been told and she could even share what she saw inside of Nasedo!

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-18-2000 09:32 PM

GraceKel:

1) Isn't the cook's name Jose? Now I'll have to go back and watch
that in slow-mo...thank god it's not a kissing scene...my family is
getting a bit worried over me agonizing and peering at the screen
during Jason's make-out sessions!

2) You know, I wonder about that "don't let anything get between you
and the beauty of the universe" statement too. At the time I
wondered simply if it just meant--don't let Max get you pregnant or
something like that (the beauty of the universe = your future as a
bright young scholar). I don't know...but Tess did come in shortly
after that episode.

Sigh--so many interpretations, so long to think about them over the
summer!

LSS

Lala79 Level 1 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 10
05-19-2000 06:41 AM

I'm bumping this thread up partially because I love it, but mostly
because everyone has posted some really good ideas and I wanted to
see if you guys could kind of link Nasedo's weird behavior in TLV
with anything. I posted something a couple of replies up and there
hasn't been a response so I'm wondering if maybe I was reading too
much into their behavior.
lala

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-19-2000 06:56 AM

Marty: Welcome to the SF threads!

Lala: I too was perplexed about that scene. It was almost as if
Nesedo didn't "know" Isabel (remember the pics were only of Max).
I'm not sure of what to make of it though. His character has changed
from ominious to merely soldier-like (though his "you don't belong
here" in the cave was harsh--but he dropped it as soon as Max
interceeded).

What is really odd is Max's change of attitude toward Nesedo...from
"he's a killer" to not even questioning about the kidnapping??? And
then treating him like a faithful retainer (which he very well might
be).

MEP: Did you post on the right thread? It almost sounded like you
were addressing the other one I started about Good SF vs. Poor/silly
SF.

LSS

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-19-2000 07:05 AM

Folks:

On the thread dealilng with whether or not Liz is the "young bride"
the hologram referred to (don't we wish!) Clint posted a really
interesting observation. I've pasted it into this thread because I
think that it is really stellar:

"Max's mother said the only way to know the bad aliens is to see
"The Bad within". Liz seems to be good at getting powerful flashes.
Remember the Black/evil flashes when she kissed Nasedo. "

That's a good connection Clint makes -- and it is one of the most
persuasive pieces of data I've seen in the "Nesedo = bad alien"
argument.

What do you folk think? BTW -- if so this will make Liz important in
locating evil aliens -- let's just hope she doesn't have to kiss
them all!

LSS

Jeffman9 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 40
05-19-2000 09:15 AM

That's an intersting point regarding Nasedo's "evil within". If it
is a reflection on his evil, I wonder why Liz only saw Hubell's dead
wife and thunder in the desert. If Liz really did see Nasedo's
"evil" I would think that Liz get flashes of all of Nasedo's
victims. Not just Mrs. Hubell. It was my impression that for some
reason Mrs. Hubell's death was a memorable event in Nasedo's life.
It seemed to me that her death affected Nasedo deeply. That's why
Liz was able to see her death. I don't know why Liz would see
thunder bolts though, I wonder what the thunder/Nasedo connection
is. We'll have to wait next season for answers to this.

ETAmerican Level 3 Registered: Nov 1999 Posts: 455
05-19-2000 09:56 AM

Lots of things to talk about

First off, I have stayed away from the Sci-Fi of... Threads for a
while because the last six episodes (post Sexual Healing) have
crammed so much sci-fi into them, and so much UNBELIEVABLE AND
UNREALISTIC sci-fi into them that I just said "who cares?". Example:
Michael changes his finger to match the agents in WR. Great. Big
deal. Not much to discuss (in general).

However, Destiny opens up a whole can of worms. And I do mean worms
in terms of as many of you have stated ILLOGIC and contrived plot
devices, no consistency, and FX for the sake of ratings.

Re: Nasedo and thunder...

A take on that is that it is a physical memory of when the ship
crashed. According to legend, the ship crashed on the Pullman Ranch
(Mac Brazell's ranch) on July 4, 1947 DURING A LIGHTENING AND
THUNDER STORM. Perhaps this is a memory of crawling out of the
wreckage of the crash.

However, what I think it means is it is a visual device that is
being used indicate anger, evil, frustration, hate, etc. The
universal indicator being thunder or turmoil.

Re: The Message from Alien Mom...

How cliched is this? Like many of you have said, "Star Wars"
revisited... Again.

Personally, this message can be used to their advantage next season
IF it turns out the Podsters are from THE FUTURE and that the planet
that has been enslaved is in fact EARTH OF THE FUTURE.

What would also be a mind blowing twist, IMHO, is if in their
attempt to set the future right, it turns out that it is the Pod
Squad who CAUSES the Earth to be enslaved by whomever or whatever.
Like in Terminator 2: The future is set by the events in one when
they send a Terminator to kill Sarah Conor. The Terminator is
defeated, BUT it is the basis for the machines that will rule the
future are based on. It is a time loop. Understand?

I would find this storyline VERY intriguing AND original and not
just "Dune" or "Star Wars" on a weekly basis. And you could still
have all the elements: Max as Leader, Michael as second in command,
etc. Throw Tess and Nasedo as "bad guys" -- or as a jilted lover on
Tess' part as the case may be -- And you have an incredible story
set against a fantastic canvas with which to play with.

Re: Four Nasedos to train Four Podsters...

This hadn't occured to me until one of you brought it up. Two died
in the crash, one is still MIA and Nasedo escaped. This means that
each of our Pod Squad had a mentor. Perhaps Isabel's was female as
was Tess -- Or whomever was Max's bride -- And this would have been
an interesting storyline to explore and I hope they at least make
this connection in the smallet way, even if just in dialogue as a
"wishful thinking" kind of thing given their current situation.

And like many of you, I hope that the writers are NOT sacraficing
the true essence (no pun intended) of the show in favor of ratings
next season... But that remains to be seen.

Marty Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 279
05-19-2000 10:07 AM

Thanks for the welcome!!

Jeffman I was wondering the same exact thing. What is the
significance, if any, of Liz seeing Hubble's wife in her flash? A
couple of people have mentioned Grandma Claudia, and I was wondering
what the theory there is? I'm a little lost on that one.

tepp Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 152
05-19-2000 10:53 AM

Lala, LSS: I think the question of Nasedo's bizarre approach to our
gang is at least as relevant to LSS's new bad scifi thread (maybe we
should just move on to there) as it is to this one. So, Nasedo has a
whole box of pictures of Max, but recall he has access to the
controversial alien book that has very accurate drawings of all the
aliens at various ages, including the way they look now. Also
remember that he burned a photograph of MMI the first time we ever
saw him (I guess it was him). So why doesn't he know who they are?
Why hasn't he known for years? Why does he hide himself from them
even after he does know? the fact is, the story doesn't even begin
to suggest an answer for these extremely obvious questions. You
could call this bad scifi, but I just call it bad period. In fact,
the scifi framework with its supernatural elements only conceals
just how screwed up all this is. It's even worse than we initially
think. As I've said before, this Nasedo thing is just wandering all
over the place, and I'm convinced the writers are just doing this
stuff for its immediate impact, that there is no master plan behind
it. LSS this is why I had so much trouble with you're singling out
Liz's visions for the "bad" slot. Compared to Nasedo, we've got a
3-D blueprint for what's going on with Liz. I think TLV is the most
extreme example of writing for effect only. All that eye-rolling,
and the knowing looks, and ominous air of mystery at the Harding
house was so much bullsh**. I don't think it meant a damned thing.
They just put it there to create excitement and suspense, and they
had no underlying direction for it (there's that intention thing
again). No matter what the writers intended us to take from all
this, we're left with so many disparate threads that we're as likely
to knit an argyle sock from them as a coherent plot. And we'd easier
find a pattern in a Sears catalogue than in anything we've seen this
year.

Jeffman: I think the deal with Hubble's wife has two explanations.
First, we knew about that murder when Liz envisioned it. We didn't
know about any other specific victims except for Atherton. We'd seen
the pictures Hubble showed Valenti, but we had no information about
them or emotional investment in their results. Hubble's wife's death
drove a pivotal character to desperate behavior and almost got Max
killed. It also provided us with a great deal of informtion we
didn't have before and opened several doors for us and the
characters. It began Valenti's change from foe to ally, and it
seemed to confirm (for Max at least) that Nasedo was dangerous and
potentially a threat to our gang. Max tried to rationalize
explanations for Atherton's death, but he stopped giving Nasedo the
benefit of the doubt after his encounter with Hubble. This opened
the rift between Max and Michael and paved the way for their violent
conflicts. Some have suggested that Michael is actually related to
Nasedo. I don't think that's true, but he now shares Nasedo's role
as a killer in contrast to Max's as a healer. So Hubble's wife's
death is structurally pivotal, and it was understandable from a
technical standpoint that the writers would have Liz see that
instead of something less familiar and less meaningful to us.

Secondly, Nasedo's killing Hubble's wife is one of the most
ambiguous things he's done (here I go trying to make sense of the
fouled up Nasedo plot). We can perhaps believe that most everyone
else Nasedo has killed represented a direct and mortal threat either
to him or to the aliens he was charged to protect. We assume from
Pierce's questions that Nasedo has killed several FBI agents, and
we've seen him kill two ourselves. We saw that he'd killed police
officers in the pictures, and we can believe that alien-researcher
Atherton might have been about to expose Nasedo and perhaps the
whole pod scheme. Much more problematic was Nasedo's murder of Hank,
who in terms of human value systems did not deserve to die. Still,
Nasedo was acting to protect Michael (funny, since he eveidently
wasn't sure who Michael was). But kidnapping Liz and killing
Hubble's wife are actions tha cannot be justified by anything we now
know. I've already argued that Nasedo took Liz because he saw her as
a threat to Tess's destined role and that he wanted her to be
killed, preferably by Pierce. But we have no way to even speculate
on why he killed Hubble's wife. I'm unwilling to assume she was an
agent or alien hunter without some explicit evidence. The only
suspicious detail surrounding her death was the fact that she was
pregnant. Some have proposed that her fetus provided the genetic
foundation for MMI (and perhaps you-know-who as well). I went so far
as to speculate that Nasedo used the fetal tissue along with his own
genetic material to create Tess and substitute her for Max's real
bride who had somehow not survived the rebirth process (which could
explain why she emerged later than the others, is so different from
them, so immature, so manipulative and deceptice, and so dependent
on Nasedo). Admittedly, this is pretty wild speculation, but that's
about all this whole Nasedo plot adds up to -- wild speculation.

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-19-2000 03:33 PM

Mep I agree with you about the increased pace of the show might hurt
both SCI-FI and RELATIONSHIP-ROMANCE and also have thought that the
move to Monday itself might be the reason for the increased ratings
because maybe nothing else is on that appeals to some. I hope we
find a BALANCE to the show again. I literally felt (especially in
the relationship scenes)that we were rushing thru them-IT BOTHERS
ME!

LAYLA79 I read your post about Mr Harding in TLV-and noticed his
behavior in kitchen as well-was he afraid that Isabel might
recognize something? I don't know but it did not go unnoticed to me
either. I just can't put my finger on it. Also in TLV some suggested
Liz sensed Max was outside but I thought she was glancing over
concerned for the camera in the statue not sensing anyone's
presence-however in WR it did seem like she sensed Maria and Alex
arrival at the CRASHDOWN-her best buds were not very supportive to
her either after what she'd been through-going straight to signif
others I know but I thought it was thoughtless of them not to give
her some support then!

LSS I know what you mean about the slo-mo HA! But sometimes the best
clues are there in slo-mo. SO GENO is his name thanks!

ETAMERICAN-I really like the idea of the enslavement being the
future earth-that would be pretty interesting I think!

JEFF-as far as Hubbles wife connection and why Liz flashed on that-I
think that HUBBLES wife looks very much like LIZ don't you? And
whether HARDING killed her because he was trying to stop some
destiny or something I don't know----but there seems to be a
connection-not enough clues yet!

I also posted on LIZ IMPORTANCE TO MYTH thread but I will put here
to--my daughter picked this one up from the PILOT EP

when Liz is talking to Larry and Jen and she says "well I guess it
would be alright to show you guys this!" in the background someone
says "WE HAVE TO GET RID OF HER!" I never caught this b4 but it is
there. So maybe Liz is MAX's true destined mate and someone is
trying to prevent it--I definitely think TESS and Harding are from
the other ALIEN SIDE and would be trying to prevent this destiny so
put 2 and 2 together!

Michelle in Yonkers Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 34
05-19-2000 06:04 PM

A small but very interesting point?

I noticed, in my hundredth viewing of this maelstrom of an episode,
that when Valenti pronounces Pierce to be dead: we cannot see
Pierce's face. At all. Very, Very dark, especially on his face. I
don't have a lot of faith in the director of this ep (he did Max to
the Max, too, also a whirlwind) but I don't think that focusing in
on someone whose face is in total darkness is an accident.

If Nasedo can impersonate Pierce, could Our Boy Pierce, the
original, have been *one of the "bad" aliens"? Who got the original
idea that to infiltrate the FBI Alien Hunting unit would be a great
way to seek out and destroy the noble Pod Babies?

And if so, would it mean that Pierce #1 *is not really dead*? And
since he could pass through the X-ray scanners, it would mean that
the "bad" aliens have also been reconstituted with human genetic
material, like our Superheroes, and so are harder to detect? (Only
by their evil?)

Michelle in Yonkers Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 34
05-19-2000 06:12 PM

A second small but interesting point?

Of late, they've cheated a bit in their promos, deliberately
misleading you and even putting in some shots that won't be in the
actual episode. BUT: they've never yet, I think, cheated in their
intros (the part after Max's voice says: "Previously, on
Roswell...") Anyway, I've always admired the way they edit the clips
for the "Previously" intro; you can actually tell which episode is
coming up by looking at which clips they've used. They're chosen
very carefully.

I just watched the ep again, and for the final episode, the very
first clip they show is Max talking to Liz, trying to explain to her
why he kissed Tess, and when he's about to beg her to believe in him
(and them); he tells Liz that there's something fishy about Tess,
not to trust her (excuse the paraphrase): "What I feel when I'm with
her, it's more than just "attraction"... it's like she's doing
something to me."

By putting that clip first in the intro, I think they want to remind
us that Max doesn't feel anything for Tess, and that she's not shy
about very heartlessly and intimately manipulating anyone to get
what she wants. (Weird that she and Nasedo had all those photos of
Max, tho, they should have known who he was from the book?)

And I think if she were really who she's claiming to be, that Max
would feel something, at least feel a little more chivalrous than
he's been - - for Max, he's been almost rude, and so far, their
instincts have not led them astray. (One of the coolest points of
the show, I think, is that they constantly affirm that you should
rely on your heart, your inner knowledge: "How did you know to do
that?" "I don't know, I just knew.")

Max seems to "just know" that he can't trust Tess; he's otherwise
always empathic and empathetic, and would have at least some
sympathy for her plight. (As he did at first when they had their
conversation about Nasedo and the book.)

But his instincts tell him he's being manipulated, used, and that
there's a false note somewhere. He's the most truthful being in any
galaxy, so his instincts about truth are probably unerring.

So I think that first clip in the intro was to keep stirring up that
mistrust, to prepare us for what's to come. They're definitely not
building Tess as a trustworthy character, and in spite of everything
recent, I'm still choosing to believe in the Creative Dream Team
that concocts this show - - they've done what they've done to decoy
the WB, and they won't let us down in the fall.

Keeping everything crossed...

gabriella Level 1 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 13
05-19-2000 07:11 PM

Today I was chatting with another devoted Roswell fan like myself.
We were hashing out the Destiny episode and one thing that stuck out
is how Tess still doesn't fit with M/M/I. Similar to a posting from
TEPP earlier in this thread, the thought was that the 4th original
alien in the crash did not survive, Nasedo being their bodyguard had
to correct the situation so he took DNA from Hubble's wife. This
would explain why Tess is so physically different, did not emerge
from the pods at the same time as the others and why she knows the
Destiny thing while the others do not. Over the next ten years,
Nasedo planted the original plan in Tess so she could complete the
original mission This would explain why she is so eager to do
anything she had to to make the Destiny tale a reality. Why would
she be the only alien to have this knowlege while Max, Michael and
Isabel know nothing about this.

Please be kind if any of you think that this is too far out on the
sci-fi meter. I am still new at this.

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-19-2000 08:14 PM

There certainly seems to be a lot of alliance making on the basis of
saving lives. Tess' visual projection was crucial to saving Max.
Then Max helps save Nasedo for Tess...neither of whom he had
trusted.

Maybe the half human aliens are the ones enslaved by the greyling
shapeshifters (no relation to the poster of this comment).

Pleiades Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 596
05-19-2000 08:58 PM

There is so much wonderful stuff here...I can't even begin to read
it all...but I totally agree with Cosmicgirl and Sage...when you
clone a person...you create a new and different individual...Max and
the others were reborn/hatched and are new
people...therefore...destiny????Well...the destiny was also to save
their planet not marry Tess...

Totally with Tepp too on the many noted diffences of Tess to the
others...and then I've always had a problem with the introduction of
the character Tess anyway...Nasado could have explained things to
our trio...weren't 6 characters enough for our writers...and if they
are now mostly human hybrids then there was no reason they be teamed
with other human hybrids...unless save our planet isn't the real
mission the real mission is to now breed....

And our three humans got dumped awful fast in the final
show...didn't like it...at all

Tepp...Tess is sometimes short for Elizabeth...FYI...

Anyway I do not believe Liz was altered...I believe due to her and
Max's "soulmate" connection and true love for one another makes her
more receptive to him and him to her...where this does not exist for
Tess at all...She was a mistake to add to the story...anyway...very
interesting thread

Nemo Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 312
05-19-2000 10:03 PM

Gabriella, good to see another new poster on this board. And the
idea you and Tepp mentioned, that Tess might be different from the
other three (something like a cowbird egg in the nest) had me
wondering too, because of the things it could explain, as you and
Tepp point out. So whether or not it turns out to be true, it was
well thought of.

[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 05-20-2000).]

DeeinKS Level 3 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 380
05-19-2000 11:20 PM

Hey, that is a good thought, I was thinking the same thing after
reading thoughts from Tepp and GraceKel, about Tess being a Hubble's
Wife/Nacedo mix. Tess learned the mind control from Nacedo right?
Well has anyone thought that he himself could have been the one to
kind of lure the 3(4 really) so he could give them a vision?
And what about that beeping noise from SH with the first
communicator? It brought Nacedo to them didn't it, to the old tower?
Well, when whatever signal was alerting the "bad" aliens, it was the
same signal sound, so why weren't they alerted to them before? Or
was that why Pierce was there? Did that signal alert him? Or was it
Topolsky's actions that alerted him, and that the bad aliens needed
to hear both signals for them to hone in on the signal from the
communicators?
Many questions. Also, question for me: Which scene with Iz/Liz? What
ep was that? I want to look.
And what about Liz's GMother? What was it that she did that alerted
others to some connection with the unknown? Just the fact that she
was born and little around the same time the crash was or what?
Tess could be both from Theresa and Elizabeth I guess, Tess or Bess
along with Liz or Beth. Or maybe Tess is from Terrestrial, haha!

tepp Level 3 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 152
05-20-2000 12:20 AM

Pleiades: So "Tess" is sometimed short for "Elizabeth?" Well, "Liz"
is almost always a diminutive of "ELIZabeth" as well (unless its the
relatively archaic name "Eliza"). So even Trash's . . . er uh,
Tess's name is something that belongs to Liz.

Michelle in Yonkers Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 34
05-20-2000 12:37 AM

Quote: So even Trash's . . . er uh, Tess's name is something that
belongs to Liz.

Which lends credence to the interesting, tho probably unlikely,
theory that somehow Liz is the true bride, and Tess is the usurper?

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-24-2000 08:40 PM

Michelle In Yonkers why do you say probably unlike scenario about
Liz being true bride? Assuming that this bride thing is accurate of
course(I am not sure Mother destiny thing is not a hoax yet but if
it isn't I would much rather believe that Liz was true bride than
TRASH I mean Tess ooopps!)

In watching eps for the millionth time I noticed "CAUTION HAZARDOUS
WASTE" on Nasedo's supposed dead body-I don't think this was an
accident----also noticed that when TESS says "the four of us should
go back to the pod chamber and Nasedo will protect us, they don't
want the humans(not exact quote) the sign "DANGER" shows right
behind her! They use these signs quite a bit more than I had ever
noticed.

Lending creedence to the idea that TESS is the substitute for Liz
and not the other way around in "MAX TO THE MAX" when Max says to
Tess "I have a lot to think about" and she says "I'll be here for
you!" she gets out of jeep and in background the sign says "NO SUB"
Could this mean -no shes a sub?

As for them not showing Pierce's face when dead I thought that was
very strange myself. I just hope that if Pierce was an alien that he
did not shape shift into Kyle and Kyle is dead and Pierce is now in
Kyle's form who was saved by Max! I wonder! Where do I get these
crazy ideas, I know. ha!

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-24-2000 09:01 PM

GraceKel

Wow! Kyle as Pierce. That would be hard on the ol' copster dad. But
what a great plot twist. If the fans have trouble with the evil
Tess, what will they do with that? And so if Tess goes for Kyle
instead of seducing Max, what would that mean?

I don't have the technology to replay, but I don't doubt at all that
the cameramen &/or directors didn't see what you saw. Maybe the
fans' dislike of Tess is the more the result of subliminal messages
than script or acting.

ETAmerican Level 3 Registered: Nov 1999 Posts: 455
05-24-2000 11:41 PM

I too have been wondering if Pierce may in fact be an "evil"
alien... Or as an alien period since we still don't know who is
"good" or "bad" aside from our Pod Squad.

We are assuming Howie D and the others at the end of Destiny are bad
because of what Alien Mom said (free association?) and since we
don't know anything about Howie and the others other than "It has
begun"

However, I think it would be almost TOO predictable, though, if
Pierce was in fact a "good" alien who managed to place himself in
charge of the FBI Alien Hunter Unit to make his job easier because
then we would have our "big twist" for next season... Not to mention
turning David Conrad (the actor) into a good guy to help ratings --
Even though, storywise, he is now Nasedo. Does that make sense? I
mean, I can just see it now:

Max: But why did you torture me?

Pierce: Because I thought you were one of them. I had to be sure it
was really you and not them. I'm sorry.

Max: But Michael killed you...

Pierce: No... He only thought he killed me. I had to make the
illusion look real to...

See how cheesy this would be?

Anyway...

On the other hand, if Pierce is truly an evil alien, AND NOT DEAD,
then they are going to have to introduce us to his henchmen -- Alien
henchman -- Who will do battle with the Pod Squad in season 2.

Sorry if I went OT on this post, but I do so love the speculation
and CRITICISM that the sci-fi (for better or for worse) brings up.

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-25-2000 07:29 AM

quote:
Originally posted by ETAmerican:
We are assuming Howie D and the others at the end of Destiny are bad
because of what Alien Mom said (free association?) and since we
don't know anything about Howie and the others other than "It has
begun"
....
Sorry if I went OT on this post, but I do so love the speculation
and CRITICISM that the sci-fi (for better or for worse) brings up.

ETAmerican--it is all right to speculate about speculative
fiction!!!

As for Howie D (Damn I wish we'd get a name --as someone on these
threads once said--having to say "Howie" sort of takes the gloom and
doom out of the character!)--I think the blurbs outside of the
actual episode told us he was the "bad" alien. But really "bad" and
"good" are relative anyway. Who is to say that the aliens from which
Max, etc. were cloned are "good"?

LSS

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-25-2000 09:01 PM

LSS so funny what you said about HOWIE but who is to say that he is
evil-have we been told that yet-it has begun could mean anything.

Did anyone else notice the funny look Pierce gave Isabel in the jeep
when they were stopped for speeding in MAX TO THE MAX? What was that
about I wonder? It must have meant something hmmmm.... ET AMERICAN
your theory about Pierce being a good guy after all would work in
with a hookup for Isabel and Pierce (sorry Alex but I think this
would be interesting!!!!Only if he is a good guy-we have enough
evilness running around with no bones and blonde ringlets!

jjj Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 8
05-26-2000 03:03 PM

This is one of the best threads. I always read it and feel lucky if
I can follow the great possibilities - let alone expand on them. I
hope the writers are half as creative as you all.

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-27-2000 12:37 AM

Just bumping for some more ideas please!

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-28-2000 05:59 AM

[WARNING--THE BELOW MIGHT INCLUDE SPOILERS--I'M REALLY NOT SURE IF
YOU COULD CALL IT THAT BECAUSE WE DO NOT KNOW MUCH ABOUT THE FALL
SEASON and WHAT IS CONTAINED BELOW IS REALLY QUITE GENERAL--BUT I
THOUGHT I'D ISSUE THIS WARNING JUST IN CASE. MODERATORS -- IF THIS
IS A SPOILER FEEL FREE TO DELETE THIS ENTIRE POST--LSS

********************************************

GraceKell

On the news page, an item labels Howie D. as the "evil" alien.

BTW -- that same item identifies the evil aliens as
shapeshifters...interesting. This lays open the possibility that
Nesedo = of the race of the "evil" aliens. If they are "going there"
this fall it explains quite a bit.

Nesedo could have "found" Tess and raised her as bait for a later
meeting with the pod squad. This would explain why he seems so
clueless about the orb and why he seems unwilling (unable?) to help
them.

LSS

provence Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 916
05-28-2000 06:45 AM

LSS I'm hoping that they pick up on some of these possibilities. I
still think that making tess a fourth real alien changes the dynamic
too much in the long run. So I like the idea that she's a 'clone' by
Nasedo because she died in her pod.

It brings in 'Hubbles' wife' and gives them a way to use tess in a
way that adds drama and also write her out eventually. It also gives
the trio something else to ponder .... can they trust Nasedo? Do the
ends justify the means. Also - Liz can be brought back into the
story because she's had this vision and it will be the key to her
unlocking the mystery of Nasedo and Tess.

Maybe the evil aliens will capture Liz in an effort to draw out Max
and she has a vision from touching one of them that connects them to
Nasedo!

Okay ... done....just wishful thinking. But the writers have to use
some of the stuff they've thrown out there!

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-28-2000 07:16 AM

LSS thanks for the heads up on the news page about Howie I did not
realize they listed him as an evil alien but that is very telling
indeed. And ofcourse the shapeshifter info.

LSS did you get to slomo in the museum in DESTINY right before the
RC COLA MACHINE like I mentioned-I know it is vague but there is
someone there-I guessed someone but I really am not sure who it is
but it definitely is not anybody we were expecting to be there
-would you agree?

Provence, I believe it was Tepp that tied that theory that maybe the
real fourth alien had died and Nasedo to continue the illusion for
his own purposes stole DNA from Hubbles wife to make Tess her
replacement. I think this is a great theory---one thing bothers
me---why does Hubbles wife look so much like LIZ? Why does Tess look
so different from Hubble's wife? Liz is like the walking clone of
Hubble's wife not Tess. I truly believe that Liz is COMPLETELY HUMAN
NOT ALIEN-but somehow I do feel that she is Max's TRUE DESTINY-and I
am trying to figure out a way to bring these together. Someone did
mention about Grandma maybe contacting an alien and falling in love
years ago....(sorry cannnot remember who) which is a possibility.

Grandma writing a book about the Indians I believe will come back
into play somehow. Grandma somehow knew that Liz was special and
seemed to be expecting the arrival of a soulmate and to always
follow her heart.

Also on another thread BYTHESEA came up with INTO THE WOODS-Max says
"then why would the sheriff mark off a FOUR SQUARE mile right near
the Indian Reservation" Good catch I think this is important to the
FOUR SQUARE symbol---not necessarily P Ranch. Or is the P ranch
within that 4sq mile?

I hope we pick up next season right where we left off- I hope
someone can explain to me why Max, Isabel, and Michael would trust
Nasedo after he kidnapped Liz so readily. I am hoping that Max does
not trust any of this just was trying to figure out what they were
up to or something.

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
05-28-2000 07:45 AM

BTW--

If you are interested in the summer hiatus reading some fanfic that
pick up the spirit of the last two posts--I would commend Anne M's
story "Goodnight Elizabeth" on Jennifer 007's board.

In it, Anne M has found a way to present Liz as Max's "destiny" in a
way that is unique and plausible (and Tess--the woman "scorned"--
goes over to fight with the evil aliens in revenge against Max who
never really could accept her).

LSS

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-28-2000 09:23 AM

Maybe this is just an in-vogue thing, but I'd prefer a plot with
less clearly defined borders between Good and Evil. For instance:
Nasedo "kidnapped" and raised Tess because she was late hatching. He
has intimidated her ever since. She will fall in love with Kyle or
some other human and rebel against Nasedo, admitting her ploys with
Max, repenting and finding forgiveness from the other pod squaders
and their allies. Maybe Nasedo can admit the evil of his ways as
well, but only in theory--kind of like the cigarette smoking man on
X-files.

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-31-2000 09:33 PM

LSS what is the wb address for Jennifer007Board I have no idea but
would love to read that fanfic?

Shapeshifter I see what you're saying about some characters having
shades of grey not black or white, or good or bad--I think the
character already has that. He is the rebellious
one,impulsive,unpredictable one. Then he will turn around and be
really sweet and you just say awwwwh! MICHAEL!

Even Isabel is a bit of a mystery-back and forth between
vulnerability and can be very cutting!

But I think I would have a hard time swallowing Tess changing her
spots now! If the writers had brought her in differently then I
could see it-but I think that it has not been a secret that they
have portrayed both TESS and MR HARDING as somewhat shady and
sinister. I could change my mind depending on what happens I guess
but right now I cannot see it!

shapeshifter Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 157
05-31-2000 09:58 PM

Well, we may be in for a let down if the thoughts of Brendan's
real-life Manager (quoted below, as I understand it) are indicative
of the churnings of the minds behind the future plots. From Clint's
"Question for Mr. Manager" thread:

quote:

originally posted by Mr. M:
On a personal note: I've never been a big fan of the "Max & Liz"
stuff or the character of Liz (I'll now get killed for saying this
I'm sure, but it's my personal choice here). I much prefer the
sci-fi aspects of the show and I'm not at all into the doey eyed,
lovey-dovey stuff on this or many other shows. So, if Max and Tess
did come together without Liz, it would appeal to my spirit of
sci-fi adventure more.

To which I replied:
quote:

originally posted by shapeshifter:
Hmmm, well, I suppose in real life people who are soulmates get
divorced.

For that matter, if the plot does take that twist and the fans
disappear, it will just leave a void for another show to
fill--even if it requires waiting unitl a young rosfan with a
vision matures into a television show creator.

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
05-31-2000 10:17 PM

Nice reply Shapeshifter could not have said it better myself-Of
course that is only his personal opinion and like I just said on the
dream thread--what possible reason could he have to want the LIZ-MAX
empire to fall hey?

Nemo Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 312
05-31-2000 11:24 PM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS

We now find out that our four podsters ... have lived and died
before in a battle on a distant planet....

I too am wondering how much of AlienMom's speech may be a fake, but
at least the beginning of it seems to have been foreshadowed for a
long time. The cairns at Buckley Point (in Crazy) now seem likely to
symbolize those former lives. In a cut scene from SH, when the orb
is first found, Max picks it up and says, apparently as a nervous
joke, "Mom?" And as long ago as the third episode (Monsters, near
the end), where Michael, Max, and Liz are waiting at school while
the sheriff grills Maria, prominent on the wall behind them are four
portraits, as of former civic leaders (who else gets their portraits
lined up in a row in the hall of a public building?), and the scene
begins with Michael's face framed by one of these. The effect is
almost as if he had walked right out of the picture. If it's any
comfort, he soon moves so as to cover up the last one, leaving in
view only three; I hope that's significant.

[Edited by Nemo on 06-09-2000 at 07:44 PM]

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
06-01-2000 08:01 AM

Hey Nemo I had not noticed those pics will have to check that out.
Thanks

Alienwatcher Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 35
06-02-2000 07:48 PM

Re: Max's destiny

How do we get that Tess is Max's destiny?? Max's destiny is to learn
about the "evil aliens" and return to save his enslaved home planet.
All she said regarding Tess was that Mom sent along Max's young
bride.

As I've said before, I think it was an arranged marriage between the
two warring races in an effort to attain peace between the two. Max
- the leader or King of his people and Tess - a member of the "evil
alien" race. This would account for the physical differences. There
was never any love between the two.

And someone brought up that the "evil aliens" are shapeshifters.
Perhaps Nasedo was Tess' "guardian" for lack of a better word, sent
with Tess to protect and care for her when she married Max in their
previous life.

When Tess accepts that she will not be able to break up Max and Liz,
then she will work secretly to destroy all of them, working with the
"evil aliens"

Spiderwoman Level 2 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 68
06-02-2000 08:05 PM

Okay i really need help....how do you post pictures??

Nemo Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 312
06-05-2000 12:59 AM

Here are some more background details from early episodes (101-103)
that may have a bearing on recent issues. It looks as if much of the
message from AlienMom is built into the story from the beginning.

101 (Morning After).

A printed item on the wall of Max's room (as Michael enters, in the
beginning) says Capitan. There's a town by that name west of
Roswell, past Hondo (also a mountain, El Capitan). In Spanish this
means Captain, right? Some rock formations named El Capitan are
monoliths, towering above their surroundings.

[Another item on the wall, to the right, begins with "Friends of
..." (I think). Can anyone make out the rest of it?]

Michael invents nicknames for Max, often calling him Maxwell. But
once, in this episode, he calls him Maximilian. This name has
belonged to several emperors.

A sign on a sink in the cafe has a face in the shape of a water
droplet, easy to imagine as an alien head, and the words Please
Conserve.

Remember that shoe store near the cafe, that was in the background
when Tess tempted Max? It had signs saying SHOE REPAIR SERVICE (when
Tess was there we could only see VICE). There was also the outline
of a shoe or boot. In the last few episodes before Destiny, this
shoe and the word REPAIR were prominent several times. (As
conjectured on another Science Fiction thread, maybe the shoe
symbolizes oppression.) But knowing what that shoe looks like,
outlined in red and green neon, you can see it here already.

102 (Monsters).

Already mentioned above are the four portraits at the school,
presumably of former leaders (as usual with portraits in public
buildings), and the juxtaposing of Michael with one of them. Again
there is a prevalence of signs about repairs. (All very natural,
given Isabel's and Maria's car troubles at the time, but now seeming
to have a double meaning. Especially with the recent signs about
repairs, like the tow truck at the gas station in MttM, with its
message about service calls, when no one was having car trouble.)
One of them is the tow truck with the rocket on top, which prompts
Maria to say to stranded Isabel "Going home?" -- connecting the home
planet with the idea of trouble that needs fixing. Does this
save-the-planet mandate seem implausible? Listen to Isabel (after
Maria's embarassment about the alien key-chain bauble) "My mom does
stupid things too ...... don't all moms?"

103 (Leaving Normal).

This begins with an orthodontists' convention. That fix-it theme
again! (But they declare that Liz is perfection.)

A few small things: Others have identified Liz with Venus, as Max
said on their first date. (Especially on the threads on Liz's
significance to the alien mythology.) An early hint of that is here:
Liz arrives at a table, the people waiting say "Here she is", and
the first dinner she sets down is a "Venus" something-or-other. A
background item: next to the intramural athletic schedule at school
is a sign with a hand pointing up, like Max's gesture "Up North,"
and a big exclamation point.

What a lot of references to time (and history)! And hints of
something unusual about it where aliens are concerned? (now that
Isabel and others seem to have had strange perceptions of time while
Tess is around.) Grandma Claudia arrives at a different time than
expected. Her first remark is about time: that her son, by his
choice of music, is dating himself. He replies that "some things
defy time." Soon GC wants to talk with Liz about boys, and Nancy
advises "don't waste your time." Liz calls the video Kyle chose "the
worst movie in history." GC's research article "Lost Treasures" is
on some "first findings ... in hundreds of years." (Although it's as
big as a book, it's an article to be published in a scholarly
journal; that process is slow, and we're not told whether this
article is even submitted yet. I wonder if Liz now has the only
copy?) Max explains to Liz "... it was before your time."

How much conflict imagery! Some of it is joking (if table 3 doesn't
get fed soon "they're going to attack"; more servers are needed
because those "tooth people are just going to invade"). But there's
a lot more. Jocks beat up Max. Michael wants to retaliate; Max urges
restraint, foreseeing dangerous escalation. (In the empty classroom
where they argue this, the big charts on the wall are about the
heart. Hmmm.) Isabel's snooty friends speak of her clearing tables
as "cleaning people's remains," a choice of words that sounds
cadaverous after we have seen Max at the museum stuffing the innards
back into the alien dummy that looks like a casualty of war.

Images of violence also surround Grandma Claudia. It is told how,
long ago, she arrested three hunters in Yosemite Park and hauled
them and their weapons before a sheriff. (There is tension even in
the telling: Jeffrey and Nancy each contradict the other about
whether it was deer season, which seems beside the point.) At the
video store, Kyle picks one in which "a serial killer homes in on
this retirement community, so it's got something for your
grandmother."

Then a sinister possibility is suggested at the hospital. GC is
responding well to treatment, then suddenly gets much worse. Shortly
before this downturn, Liz sees (in the phone booth) a notice of some
intramural contest at the hospital: Radiology vs. Neurology. The
camera focused on it particularly; we were meant to notice it. Now
maybe this means something profound about matter/energy vs. mind.
But we have just been shown that Isabel can heat coffee and fry
steak, Michael can melt metal, even inside a sealed container,
leaving no outward sign. The writers have clearly informed us that
if someone with similar alien powers wanted to harm GC
surreptitiously (by aggravating the brain injury, which will be
blamed on the stroke), they had the means. And if they can
impersonate a physician, they have the opportunity.

By the way, the necklace GC was wearing had a centerpiece in the
shape of the orbs. (And didn't AlienMom remind us of GC? Notice that
Liz called GC "the basis of my existence" [as pointed out on the
alien-mythology thread] and twice remarked that she was "full of
life.") If she somehow has alien connections, and if there's
longstanding conflict there, which side does she relate to? Is there
another layer to this Romeo and Juliet thing, with Max and Liz
deriving from opposite sides? Liz to Maria: "I saw Max before, and
he had this ... tone like I was his enemy or something."

If so, perhaps Max and Liz getting together will be the key to
saving the planet. (Symbolized by the orbs that don't work properly
unless they're together?) Maybe mothers on both sides want this, but
can't get the hawks to quit fighting? AlienMom didn't exactly say
that one faction on her planet had enslaved another; what she said
enslaves them [present tense] was CONFLICT.

A note on the altered-Liz theory: Perhaps this has been pointed out
before, but when Liz meets Maria at school and remarks "I'm getting
this really weird feeling from Max," the word CHANGE (on a pop
machine) is conspicuous between them.

[Edited by Nemo on 06-08-2000 at 09:17 PM]

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
06-05-2000 06:02 AM

Nemo:

Thanks again for your wonderful attention to detail!!!

[NOTE: folks--Nemo is the person to sit next to when playing Roswell
Trivia--he was awesome at the Vancouver Fan Gathering!]

Another item you can add Nemo (I don't think that you've mentioned
it yet) is the song at the end of Toy House. It is by the Counting
Crows. As Isabel cries because Max has not told thier human mother
about their true identities the lyrics in the background are
something like "some of us sink like a stone---waiting for mothers
to come."

GraceKel: It is the Roswell FanFiction Board. I'll try to get the
URL and post it to you.

LSS

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
06-06-2000 09:37 AM

LSS I found it on the links thanks anyway I have started to read but
haven't finished yet.

NEMO-I too was wondering if there was more to the ORTHODONTISTS that
INVADED ROSWELL because even Maria and Liz questioned why would a
tooth conv come here?

And I noticed their reaction to Liz "HERE SHE IS!" The way they
looked at her as being SPECIAL! I noticed this a few weeks ago but I
have been putting so many things out there that I think people are
going to think I am reading too much into everything ha! So I did
not post besides the fact that the board was down for awhile!

I guess noone agrees with me but I also think the old lady with the
WHITE HAIR, the busboy with the glasses and others who work at the
CRASHDOWN have a role to play although they never have spoken a word
on the show! They are always around almost observing and listening
when important things are being discussed or happening. I DO NOT
THINK THIS IS AN ACCIDENT!

As for the signs I already posted the VICE thing Nemo as a matter of
fact I thought it showed as HOE VICE-very interesting!
Another sign thing I noticed in 285SOUTH
when Sheriff and Kyle are in his room the camera pans WARNING then a
second or two later another sign "DON'T MISS THIS" The only thing is
I could not figure out what they wanted us to see perhaps
someoneelse could take a look!

Nemo as for Michaels powers being like Nasedo and the whole sweat
thing---I have a theory about Nasedo Michael and Tess being related
in this certain alien group---which would explain Max explanation
about WALKING FOR AWHILE b4 they STUMBLED upon Michael standing upon
this BIG ROCK "HERE DEAL WITH ME!" and it being the hardest thing
for him to trust Max and Isabel because they are from the other
group. I will be back in a minute gotta get off for a sec.

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
06-06-2000 10:01 AM

I think this theory would be really interesting because it would be
a SHOCKER fo r the audience that Michael came originally from this
DARKER GROUP---but of course since he had been lucky enough to be
away from them he becomes more like Max and Isabel.
I think there is evidence to support the theory-not that they will
go there but ....

When Liz first shows RIVERDOG they symbol on the necklace-he says it
means DANGER and DEATH!
Although Max and Isabel recognize symbol only Michael is the one
that can interpret message INTO THE WOODS-Nasedo is back the others
got nothing---as a matter of fact Riverdog asked why the other two
were there---like the message wasn't for them.
Micheal has stated it time and time again "Nasedo is my family I am
going to find him"
Riverdog says that the elders thought Nasedo was an evil spirit-I
was told not to follow him but I WAS A BOY AND I WOULD NOT LISTEN.
Riverdog saved his life but in the ep Riverdog he tells Liz "you are
not one of them be sure he deserves your trust" I don
t think Riverdog thinks good things about Nasedo. I will be back
again with more.

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
06-06-2000 11:46 AM

Hi back again so I will finish my thoughts about Michael----Ya know
how Michaels powers never worked until Harding and Tess showed
up----at the end he is questioning himself about being a killer-how
Max is a healer, I am bad and you ar good! Which I thought was quite
sad---but this would fit into my theory as well----the ironic thing
about it would be that Michael thought he had it tough growing up
with Hank and that in finding Nasedo would save his life but I think
that maybe what saved his life was finding Max and Isabel, Liz,Maria
and Alex. He just doesn't know it yet.

I think it is possible that Max and Isabel had a destiny to hook up
with humans but Nasedo and his gang brought Michael and Tess for
them to hook up with to somehow mess with the original plan-that is
why they want it-not sure of details but something went wrong and
Tess never hatched or Michael got lost and found Max and Isabel but
still did not trust them because he wasn't one of them which would
explain the lack of trust.
I think this would be a great storyline for Michael to overcome a
very dark past and be forever changed by fate.

There is a difference between Michael and Nasedo but I think they
might have came from the same line---this would explain why symptoms
showed up later in Michael--also for the fact that he has been
altered by the friendship that has been offered him.

Nemo I saw the pic thing at the end of monsters it did seem symbolic
of something by covering up the fourth one.

Lala79 Level 1 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 10
06-06-2000 01:11 PM

I like the idea that Michael was different than Max and Isabel. But
want I really wanted to rant and rave about is that crappy story
that was fed to us by mother alien.
Just in case you can't tell I'm really not buying the whole hologram
thing. I really, these aliens are intelligent enough to make
human/alien hybrids but they can't make a working communicator.
Unless of course the alien definition of the word communicator is
different than the human definition. I'm thinking that the hologram
was a scam brought on by none other than tess and that they way the
communicator really works is by that little beep beep flashing light
thing that happened all over the world. I don't know maybe it's like
alien morse code. Feel free to make something out of these
scatterbrain ideas
lala

Lala79 Level 1 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 10
06-06-2000 01:19 PM

I like the idea that Michael was different than Max and Isabel. But
want I really wanted to rant and rave about is that crappy story
that was fed to us by mother alien.
Just in case you can't tell I'm really not buying the whole hologram
thing. I really, these aliens are intelligent enough to make
human/alien hybrids but they can't make a working communicator.
Unless of course the alien definition of the word communicator is
different than the human definition. I'm thinking that the hologram
was a scam brought on by none other than tess and that they way the
communicator really works is by that little beep beep flashing light
thing that happened all over the world. I don't know maybe it's like
alien morse code. Feel free to make something out of these
scatterbrain ideas
lala

GraceKel Level 4 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 603
06-06-2000 01:36 PM

Layla79 you are not the only one who did not like the MOTHER
HOLOGRAM(I can't say I cared much for it---it seemed a little cheesy
to me and I hate saying that about my fav show so I keep saying to
myself maybe the reason it looked fake is because it is fake!) We
can only hope! I will go along with the beeping like a signal all
over. THat works for me.
One reason especially I did not like this is because it seems like
Roswell has put about 3 seasons of stories into 1 season doesn't it?
I thought it would be more realisitc to find things out more slowly
than this.

Call it pressure from the WB to wrap up in case cancelled or what
but even the WHITE ROOM being in the first season I thought WOW they
are using all these ideas in 1 season?

Roswell_Rose Level 3 Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 185
06-06-2000 02:03 PM

Yea, what was up w/ their mom? I mean it was soooo cheesy, I
actually LOL @ it. I felt really bad for the actors having to put up
with that kind of cheesiness...

what is up with all the Howie D. hype? I mean the guys said one
line, three words in four syllables ("I has BEGUN") and now he's
suddenly this big star?? I don't think so...

<*>

starcat Level 2 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 61
06-07-2000 08:54 AM

LSS:

This board up until a things were revamped was difficult to post on
(thus I stayed away)...noticed your May 27th post regarding Clint's
observation and thought that it falls in line with a brief theory I
threw out on the first page of this thread...???

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
06-07-2000 10:08 AM

Starcat:

Are you referring to you theory about Liz? If so, then yes I agree
with you. The fact that Liz was able to "see" into Nesedo is indeed
interesting. Especially since what she "saw" was:

1) devoid of color,
2) bleak
3) involved a murdered woman.

What might the "evil within" look like if it were depicted in
images? Perhaps like what Liz saw when she had a flash with
Nesedo/Max?

If so--then Liz might be crucial in the coming combat! And how do
you think Max will feel if this is the case? How would you like the
love of your life to be a barometer for evil? Of course, he just
might be so glad to get her back that he will overlook the obvious
danger involved--but I doubt it.

LSS

starcat Level 2 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 61
06-08-2000 10:27 PM

LSS:

What worries me is that Liz had visions when she was being intimate,
does this mean she will have to become 'close' to the 'other' aliens
we were introduced to in Destiny.

Plot twist I 've been tossing around - Liz may unknowingly engage in
pursuing a new love interest that could just turn out to be the
enemy alien - who have set their sites on Liz for obvious reasons -
thus giving her an opportunity to see the 'evil' within and return
to Max?

Or Liz's powers of perception may not require actual physical
intimacy (however, everything we've seen up to this point suggest
that they do?) - or she may 'evolve' to a point where 'kissing' is
not required (lets HOPE)....remember in SH she had a vision when Max
touched her hand...no kissing here (however, it being Max, she was
open for 'reception')???...

I just keep creating more questions!! I like contemplating the
possibilities BUT you can also drive yourself crazy (esp. with 4
months to go...)

Thanks for responding to my last post.

JanetMG Level 3 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 215
06-09-2000 03:45 AM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS
How would you like the love of your life to be a barometer for
evil? Of course, he just might be so glad to get her back that he
will overlook the obvious danger involved--but I doubt it.

Interesting thought. As others have suggested, Liz having
evil-detection powers could lessen the danger/be very helpful to
MM&I, but could increase the danger to Liz, which we've seen to be
more painful to Max than torture. It could be interesting to see
them explore the barometer of evil angle. It makes me think of
mysteries like O'Connell's Mallory's Oracle or even Harris' Red
Dragon where the hero(ine) &/or their loved ones have to come to
grips with the hero(ine)'s ability to identify with/understand evil.

It also brings to mind the way Buffy & Riley have had to deal with
what it means to date/love Slayer, The. [Of course the slayer's
powers seem to focus more on the killing of evil while relying on
keen fashion sense to detect it. Liz seems to have better detection
powers (assuming and also hoping starcat that physical intimacy is
not required), but less ability to defend herself/fight evil.]
Roswell's been looking at the difficulties of loving someone who is
constantly in physical danger or otherwise "may not be there
tomorrow" as something Liz (& to a less explicit extent, Maria &
Alex) needs to think about with respect to dating Max. It would be
interesting to see the reverse.

[Edited by JanetMG on 06-09-2000 at 03:55 AM]

LindaBB Level 3 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 159
06-09-2000 04:49 AM

HI ya all
I haven't posted on the sci-fi tread before..
and hats off to all of you and your attention to detail...Nemo, you
are AMAZING!! :-)

I watched Destiny again last night before bed, I've found myself
going back to the episodes I have recorded, as I read more and more
on the boards to see what I can pick up..but I haven't got all the
episodes yet, still recording off the reruns..:-)

I must admit I went to bed mulling over the story...they sure put a
LOT in those last two episodes..

1st...I MUST agree about the "Mommy-gram"..so much of it seems a bit
absurd...
The craft crashed in 1947, OVER 50 years...
Can you imagine a war raging for over 50 years, especially with high
tech weapons?..but she did say they were slaves now, but still, some
sort of resistance is likely. The idea that there's still something
for them to 'save' is small...I think they will find out more of
their 'destiny' is on Earth next season...

2nd..The philosophic questions alone is enough to boggle the
mind...how do you clone an essense of a being...it's that like their
soul or consciousness?
"Cloneing" requires cells...an essense or soul has cells? :-)
I could buy putting them in 'cold storage' and transfering their
brains, better :-) LOL..

AND IF it is possible...to clone an 'essense', and that is like
consciousness or one's soul...would that not be a lot like
reincarnation?
And in reincarnation, the memories of past lives are hazy at
best...you might recongnize people from then..but it would be like
something familar...not one's 'destiny'.
That would be like putting Michael Angelo's 'essense' or soul into a
new born baby...does that guarantee that baby will PAINT..or just
that the talent might be there?...maybe the baby will want to use it
some other way!

3rd..What are you all's thoughts on the 'beepers' going off in all
the different houses at the end?
IS that the houses of the 'bad aliens?"..or what?
Nacedo said..."NO telling who you will attract!"...could that mean
more 'good aliens' as well?
Could it be more pods were sent?...to help them...more 'important'
warriors or leaders from their world?

4th..AS I watched the ending ...between Liz and Max...I was totally
convenced that this was a very good cliff hanger, but only that..it
won't last...Liz is going to play some major role in all this..IF
nothing more than Max's emotional strength.

FOR ONE thing, IF he is the LEADER, and the person destined to 'save
the world'..he also has to be strong enough to make decisions about
himself! And stand by them.
What leader/major figure head/ warrior would declare their un-dieing
love and devotion one minute and then back off...that quick?
I think they have to adjust to the 'news' they've recieved...then go
back to doing as much as possible normally, they have much to LEARN
yet..much to hone in their skills and powers...not to mention
finishing high school :-).
I know my thoughts aren't as detailed...I'm more a metaphysical
person...:-)
just thought I'd put in my two cents worth :-)

LSS Level 4 Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 966
06-09-2000 06:52 AM

LindaBB welcome to the SF threads!!! Good to see you here.

quote:

Originally posted by LindaBB
4th..AS I watched the ending ...between Liz and Max...I was
totally convenced that this was a very good cliff hanger, but only
that..it won't last...Liz is going to play some major role in all
this..IF nothing more than Max's emotional strength.

FOR ONE thing, IF he is the LEADER, and the person destined to
'save the world'..he also has to be strong enough to make
decisions about himself! And stand by them.
What leader/major figure head/ warrior would declare their
un-dieing love and devotion one minute and then back off...that
quick?

But sometimes leaders are forced to choose between what is best for
their people over what is best for them personally. Part of the
psychological force (I suspect) behind the "Liz is important for the
Alien mythology" thread on this board is the desire to show that Liz
WITH Max is important for Max's people. Thus choosing Liz is not
merely a selfish move on Max's part, but a move that dovetails with
the greater good of his alien race.

And yes--it will be interesting to look more closely at those homes
with responding lights. Apparently there are a lot more aliens in
residence on earth than anyone imagined!

Again LindaBB welcome!

LSS