Fanforum - The Science Fiction of Heat Wave

The Science Fiction of Heat Wave

This thread was 4 pages long.

LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-10-2000 07:13 PM

Tonight's episode advances Roswell's romantic storyline in several significant ways: 1) M/M get major eraser room time; 2) M/L share their first kiss, 3) Alex finds out about the aliens' identities, while 4) Isabel sees Alex in a far different light than previously imagined; and finally, 5) the rift between Alex and Liz begins to heal.

As important as all of the above are for Roswell as Romance, we see VERY little of Roswell as SF in this episode! In fact, only two items really stand out:

1) ISABEL AND HER POWERS. In Heat Wave we learn that alien powers come in handy for those hard to match accessories. But far more significant, is Isabel's dream-walking abilities! Later in the season we will see that of the four podsters, only Isabel dreamwalks. [NOTE: as someone points out later in this thread this is NOT the first time Isabel dreamwalks--the first time is in Monsters with Maria...the way I phrased the above, however, might lead one to believe this is the first...sorry].

Although we have discussed this on other SF of [episode] threads, a summary of those discussions might look like this (for those who have not encountered those threads):

a) Our podsters possess powers that appear person specific (in addition to those they all can do). Isabel's "specific" power is dreamwlking.

b) IF it turns out that Tess CAN dreamwalk, then maybe we have a gender specific power (Max and Michael CANNOT dreamwalk--Katims did say that in an interview; of course that can change if the writers will it!).

Even if Tess cannot "dreamwalk" it might be argued that implanting images in someone's mind is a variant of "seeing" images in someone's mind. This would mean that we still might have a gender specific power.

What do you think? Is there any power thus far that we could say is male-specific? What about healing (which only Max and Michael can do thusfar)?

2) SEXUAL COMPATABILITY BETWEEN ALIENS AND HUMANS. In some ways HW is the precurser to SH. Both are concerned with what will happen if our podsters become sexually involved with humans (Liz--let's hope nothing explodes [paraphrased]; Max's concern about the M/M relationship.)

Folks--did I miss any other SF theme in this episode? I felt like I was looking for the proverbial needle in the haystack trying to even find the above!!!

LSS

[Edited by LSS on 07-11-2000 at 06:54 AM]

plumeria

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 759 07-10-2000 07:20 PM

I could have sworn that Isabel had dreamwalked once already before this episode. Didn't she dreamwalk Maria in Monsters?

Don't forget Isabel's added powers -- changing nail polish colors. Although I guess that's along the lines of "manipulating molecular structures" that Max mentions in the Pilot.

You're right, there isn't a lot of SF in this ep -- but (and I mentioned this on another thread), I kind of liked the brief break, at least when the ep first aired. The preceding eps were all very intense, and it was nice to have this relaxed, romantic ep and to see Liz and Alex make up before the SF/intensity returned in it's usual measure.

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 244 07-10-2000 07:28 PM

hi there,

lss: regarding the 'hard to match accessories'... it's interesting that isabel seems to have spent some time discovering ways to use her power that are not just concerned with 'life and death' issues. it suggests the all important factor of having a sense of humor about the powers to begin with.

regarding the powers being gender specific. i was at a conference where they showed p.e.t. scans of male and female brains. apparently (hopefully i got this right) men and women use some different parts of their brains when communicating. so it's possible that biological differences might show up (at least initially) in powers or abilities as well? however, is it also possible that with hard work and practice the podsters could end up accessing skills that were not immediately available to them? (and lets not forget the phrase: "different but equal" )

as far as sexual compatibility: given the fact that we now know the podsters are 'designed' as humans with alien essense, then why not be compatible. perhaps i'm just an optomist? this raises the question of just what 'percentage' of the podsters are human, and what 'percentage' of them are alien? (visualize a pie chart? )

jenlev

Fieryangel

Addicted Fan Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 668 07-10-2000 07:50 PM

quote:

Originally posted by plumeria I could have sworn that Isabel had dreamwalked once already before this episode. Didn't she dreamwalk Maria in Monsters?

you're right, she did dreamwalk her in Monsters. and also, not a lot of SF in this ep, i really enjoyed that because i really love this ep because of the romance that really starts between max and Liz.

Jodi

Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 360 07-10-2000 09:05 PM

What caught my attention (besides the obvious) was Maria's hickey. Non-glowing. Non-hairy. Plain old run-of-the-mill wear a turtleneck hickey.

Think this is some grand clue about how post-healing Liz is special? Or is just lazy writers? Revisionist history?

Here's to hoping they provide us with more, ahem, field research this fall.

Jodi

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-10-2000 09:12 PM

quote:

Originally posted by plumeria I could have sworn that Isabel had dreamwalked once already before this episode. Didn't she dreamwalk Maria in Monsters?

Yes she did! Sorry I didn't mean to imply that this was the first time we see her do this.

LSS

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 104 07-10-2000 10:49 PM

As more of a scifi nut, I was disappointed the first time I saw this ep. In retrospect, it was interesting to look at some of the minor elements and try to figure out if they are signal or noise:

1)When Sherriff Valenti and Amy De Luca discuss her bust 20-odd years ago, she says that she was protesting to protect a 200-year old landmark of Native American architecture. I wondered, what kind of landmark would the Navajo, Hopi, etc have built in the late 1700's? Then Valenti tells her that the Native Americans wanted it torn down more than anyone. I wondered if this meant there was superstition, or a history of tragedy, associated with it, or if they just wanted to clear the land so they could build something else.

2)Liz says something about, at least nothing exploded, when she and Max are about to kiss in the soap factory parking lot. But very shortly before, the extra amps Octavio and his buds wired in overloaded the circuitry and started the electrical fire (it must have started after they walked outside; Kyle is talking to them when the fire truck pulls up) Think there's some connection to all that podster lust in one place?

3)I have to agree with Alex, Isabel's behavior was low. Seeing him tonight reinforced my sense that he should have stayed on the scene as Liz and Maria's friend, rather than joining the alien fan club. He would have been more helpful as a bullshit detector, someone who knew about the podsters, but had a perspective beyond the matter of who he was dating.

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 183 07-10-2000 11:46 PM

Regarding Maria's hickey, this episode takes place before the alien's sexual drives are awakened, maybe this is why there were no light sensors going!

Pixiedude-re: #3, I think Alex's infatuation/obsession with Isabel plays a large part in his behavior. This is the closest he's come to obtaining the girl of his dreams, or even of being noticed by her!

I always get a giggle when I see the "slugfest." Could there be a better analogy for the speed at which Liz's and Max's relationship is going?!!

shapeshifter

Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 448 07-10-2000 11:54 PM

Rocklowery, How dense of me! I didn't get the metaphor! But actually, I was disappointed with both Heat Wave and SH in that they seemed to rely on sexual tension to draw the audience. I still think that if the relationships had been a little more "sluggish" that the Science Fiction could have also developed at a less break neck pace, and the advent of Tess as an adversary to the romance would not have been necessary.

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 244 07-11-2000 03:21 AM

hi there,

rocklowery: thank you for pointing out the slug metaphor! might it also represent the speed of which the various sets of parents catch a clue? (kidding...)

jenlev

JanetMG

Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 259 07-11-2000 03:45 AM

I'm impressed, LSS. After watching Heat Wave last night, I was wondering what you'd come up with to start this thread!

The only new thing I really noticed w/respect to sci fi was that Isabel had to touch the blue flower before changing the nail polish. My guess is that she needed to get a "feel" for the atomic or molecular structure of the color to match it. When we see her changing her lipstick color in a later ep, she doesn't need to touch anything first. Again, my guess is she'd done it often before and already "knew" the colors she wanted. I'm not at all sure that my guesses are right, though, because I don't think she touched anything before turning the ketchup yellow (and/or into mustard) and I don't know how likely it is that she had done that before.

Actually, does anyone have a good explanation re when the Podsters need some kind of physical contact to use their powers. At least in Monsters & Heat Wave, I think Is touched a photo before dreamwalking, but I don't remember if she actually touched one before visiting Max in WR. Some times Max needs to touch (healing Liz & Kyle, lighting up the heart, parking meters), but sometimes he doesn't (healing Michael, did he touch the lock at the end of 285S?, any others?) Michael touched the key, the lock at Valenti's window and held the agent's finger (but that seemed to be to allow him to better compare, and not necessary to change his own finger) and didn't touch the things he tossed toward Hank or the vehicle he disabled in Destiny.

I think its fairly obvious why the key and the CD from Kyle needed to be touched, but otherwise I'm not sure I see a pattern overall. Of course, it may go on a power by power basis. E.g., serious internal injury--must touch to heal, while bruise/black eye--no touch necessary. But is healing a separate power or one application of the ability to manipulate molecules/atoms? When looking at molecular manipulation generally, it's harder to see a pattern.

Is it simply unnecessary, but indicative of how comfortable or confident they are in their ability to use a particular power in a particular situation? E.g., Is wasn't completely comfortable yet with using a power in front of anyone other than Max or Michael. Or perhaps Max had healed a lot of bruises, scratches, etc. growing up, but felt less confident when trying to heal serious injury. I'm not sure that this theory works for Michael, though.

Any thoughts?

Whiteotter

Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 173 07-11-2000 05:40 AM

I'm assuming that a connection with the object of concentration (color of a flower, for example) makes it easier to be exact. Remember learning how to write in elementary school, and you had all those dotted lines to help you know how tall small letters are vs. capital letters? I think Isabel's touching the flower provides her sensory, tangible, exact information, rather than having to rely on her own judgement as to the exact color.

Having said that, I think the more the aliens use their powers, the less they need the guidelines (much as we don't need lines now to help us write). That's why I think Is didn't need something of Pierce's when she dreamwalked in 'Destiny', and it's also the reason why Max didn't need to have Kyle look at him when he saved Kyle. I think their using their powers is making the powers stronger. Just my .02...

Ciao!

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 306 07-11-2000 05:47 AM

Rocklowery:You have a good point with the podsters being pre-alien-bio.driven, and that could be why the hicky doesn't glow. It would be interesting to see if this phenomenon recurs constantly now, if it returns periodically, or if it was a one time occurance at only that one stage of development.

Jenlev:I agree with your theory that they develope their powers to include some of each others' abilities. Michael discovered only in "Destiny" he has power to kill by "shooting" energy at the enemy. Max was surprised by it, and when he said, "We may be more powerful than even we believe", he may have been wondering if they can all do this. It makes sense that if they all have different personalities and experiences, they would naturally gravitate to certain powers. I can not imagine a rather shy, unobtrusive Max would want to dreamwalk somebody, and in fact, I think he would be repulsed by the idea. I think over summer, they will seriously practice and explore their powers.(Maybe Kyle can set up the bottles for target practice, and give them some pointers on aiming.)

JanetMG :I had not noticed the distances in healing had been different. Great observation! What if they have to back off a bit for minor suface injuries, but get as close as possible for internal injuries? What if the healing power works best at, lets say, three inches, and they have to adjust their distances accordingly?

sjton

Level 2 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 68 07-11-2000 06:32 AM

Sorry this is kind of a long post, but I haven't posted on a SciFi thread in awhile so I have a lot to say.

~~~jenlev said:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ regarding the powers being gender specific. i was at a conference where they showed p.e.t. scans of male and female brains. apparently (hopefully i got this right) men and women use some different parts of their brains when communicating. so it's possible that biological differences might show up (at least initially) in powers or abilities as well? however, is it also possible that with hard work and practice the podsters could end up accessing skills that were not immediately available to them? (and lets not forget the phrase: "different but equal") ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

"different but equal" That could be very interesting.

What if the reason Tess seemed so interested in who could Dreamwalk (White Room) was because her power is to Dreamwalk, but with Nasedo as her teacher she is just better at it. Seeing images inside someone else's mind and putting images inside someone else's mind, may not be so different.

Both Michael and Max have healed. Michael healed River Dog. Max healed Liz, Michael and Kyle, and in "Leaving Normal" may have tried to heal GC. And both have demonstrated Telekinesis.

Tess and Isabel have as far as we know never healed or used Telekinesis, While Max and Michael have never Dreamwalked. But Max said that he heals by manipulating molecules, so maybe Tess and Isabel can do it to. I think Max may have implanted images into Liz's mind (Leaving Normal).

So, are their powers really that different, and am I the only one who is confused here?

~~~pixiedude said:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 2)Liz says something about, at least nothing exploded, when she and Max are about to kiss in the soap factory parking lot. But very shortly before, the extra amps Octavio and his buds wired in overloaded the circuitry and started the electrical fire (it must have started after they walked outside; Kyle is talking to them when the fire truck pulls up) Think there's some connection to all that podster lust in one place? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I think your on to something there.

~~~rocklowery said:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Regarding Maria's hickey, this episode takes place before the alien's sexual drives are awakened, maybe this is why there were no light sensors going!

I always get a giggle when I see the "slugfest." Could there be a better analogy for the speed at which Liz's and Max's relationship is going?!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was wondering about Maria's hickey. Thank you for that very probable answer.

I think your analysis of Alex is very good.

"slugfest"

~~~JanetMG said:~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I'm impressed, LSS. After watching Heat Wave last night, I was wondering what you'd come up with to start this thread!

I too like the way you started this thread, LSS.

Maybe Isabel has changed ketchup into mustard(or Tabasco) before, because they like spicy foods.

I think their powers are growing. Like a muscle, the more you use it the stronger it gets.

sjton, the SciFi nut.

[Edited by sjton on 07-11-2000 at 06:38 AM]

indiglo cheshire cat

Level 1 Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 3 07-11-2000 06:40 AM

You see, I think the female aliens' powers that are exclusive to them are more mental and the males' are more physical. I think that's what they're going for, not really gender-specific powers. Not that anyone cares, it's just my opinion.

~�Ariana�~

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-11-2000 06:45 AM

quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter I still think that if the relationships had been a little more "sluggish" that the Science Fiction could have also developed at a less break neck pace, and the advent of Tess as an adversary to the romance would not have been necessary.

SHAPESHIFTER: I think you mean a little "less" sluggish -- and I think you are right. Sigh. When I write the starts of these threads I also am framing an outline for the SF reviews (I'm working on the backlog now). And I've got to say there is NO comparison of these eppy's to the last HALF of the season (SF wise). That doesn't mean I don't like them--but it means that in viewing I mentally "switch over" to the romantic myth as I am watching them.

ROCKLOWERY: Great call about the slugs!

NEMO: Okay -- now you have got ME started on this "signs" thing. Did you notice the paper dispensor in the boy's bathroom? Michael was leaning against it as he talked to Max about Maria. Did it say "descendant" ??? I haven't had a chance to go back and check it. If it does then what do you think is its significance? Is this where the "Maria as alien hybrid" theory (aka that elusive father) comes in? BTW such a theory (folks this is PURE SPECULATION--and I don't usually "go there") might explain why her hickies don't glow...but it would NOT explain why she couldn't get visions when they make out (and from this eppy we know it is not for lack of opportunity).

PIXIEDUDE: Interesting observation about the "explode" comment. You and Nemo ought to get together!!

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-11-2000 06:50 AM

quote:

Originally posted by Jodi What caught my attention (besides the obvious) was Maria's hickey. Non-glowing. Non-hairy. Plain old run-of-the-mill wear a turtleneck hickey. Think this is some grand clue about how post-healing Liz is special?

Here's to hoping they provide us with more, ahem, field research this fall.

Jodi

Jodi--that is a common "read" of this. Why Liz: 1) got the physical symptons she did in SH (glowing hickies and rashes) and 2) visions, remains a mystery. I personally ascribe to the "altered Liz" theory but I'm not sure the writers do!

And yes--more field study, writers--PLEASE!

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-11-2000 07:25 AM

quote:

Originally posted by JanetMG IThe only new thing I really noticed w/respect to sci fi was that Isabel had to touch the blue flower before changing the nail polish....

JanetMG:

A very interesting observation!!!

If we were to catalogue this aspect of the podsters' use of powers (which you already have started to do in the rest of your post) it might look something like this:

POWERS accompanied by touch:

a) connecting (Pilot) b) healing (Pilot; Into the Woods; Destiny [NOTE JanetMG--I cannot tell whether he touches Michael's bruises or not] c) flashes from inanimate objects (Morning After; Missing; 285 South)NOTE: CD and Key d) manipulating molecular structures (i.e. sculpture [Pilot]; nailpolish [Heat Wave]; melting locks [Morning After]; etc.) e) dreamwalking (touching photo) f) killing with touch (Nesedo/Max--M2TM) g) activating objects (heart in SH; symbol in Into the Woods; opening cave 4SQ, etc.)

POWERS exercised without touch (and sometimes from a distance)

a) telekinesis (end of UFO Convention; Izzy's wave the hand / the chain on the doorlock in 285 South) b) manipulating molecular structure (Izzy's heating tacos and coffee; Michael's wave the hand / change the grade [Leaving Normal]; etc.) c) Max's medical "scanning" abilities (SH) d) Michael's hand/weapon thingie (Destiny) e) Daywalking/target is awake(as opposed to dreamwalking/sleeping) (Izzy in WR and Destiny) f) Mental Projection of Images (Tess)

And I'm sure there are more!!!

JanetMG raises an intriguing question--why do some require touch and others not? Some, of course, are obvious--activating the cave entrance requires some type of "identifying" touch while who would WANT to touch something you are heating (tacos/coffee). But what of the rest?

Anyone have any suggestions for JanetMG?

LSS [Edited by LSS on 07-11-2000 at 07:31 AM]

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 104 07-11-2000 09:47 AM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter

The thing on the paper towel dispensor was a bumper sticker for The Descendants, a punk rock band. I associate them with 80's hardcore, but I'm not a thorough student of that scene.

Did anyone read what was on the back and/or the front of Micheal's shirt, when he's at the urinals?

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-11-2000 10:27 AM

Pixiedude:

Thanks. Needless to say, I have never heard of them (I'm dating myself, I know). But you know, as I understand this "signs" thing that Nemo, GraceKel, etc. do..."signs" can be multivalent (have different meanings).

Is this group "coming back? If not then you might ask yourself why THIS sticker in THIS scene (keep in mind I do not usually "do" the signs thing. Nemo??? GraceKel??? this is really your area of expertise!

But pixiedude--your explanation takes the "bizzare" out of the sticker!!! Thanks!

LSS

BTW--any idea why that sticker would be there?

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 183 07-11-2000 12:38 PM

Two quick things:

Re the healing question, I got the impression from Isabel and Max's conversation about his wounds that they were both capable of healing minor wounds like scrapes and bruises.

Another sign alert: when Isabel is talking to Alex about the party, there is a sign outside the window that says: Wanna Wrestle?

Now back to work

ROStaFEHRian

Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 60 07-11-2000 02:36 PM

I liked HW. I LMAO with the slug scene and comments. I appreciate c. Hanks more and more as I see him. I loved the jail scenes. An that balcony kiss....I almost melted from the heat. M & M..whew. Nasty..nasty boys..oh you nasty boys... That reminds me- I sure hope Michael washed his hands before he left the loo.

I really wanted to start a Symbols, Meaning, Myth, and Storytelling (well something like that) and had started making notes on the back of a piece of paper. But I don't have much time (I'm still writing a paper). Well, the truth is I can't find the paper in this desk mess.

Anyway, I think this is VERY on topic to this thread so I will post here. I may rework some things and start a thread (so it will be synergistic with other threads, particularly with the SF of threads, Plumeria's thread which I found yesterday after a head's up from Nemo- he with the sharp eye for signs and symbols - and the Importance of Liz.. and some other threads).

Now don't hold me responsible for my delusions. I don't see dead people, but I still see SPSS and Powerpoint slides when I close my eyes. I just finished exams and a thesis to fulfill the requirements for 2 different graduations within 6 weeks. I had a fever the last 2 days (all gone now). My computer crashed last week and would not reboot without harsh words and a $35 bribe. An I erased a tape of Roswell eps in my despair (computers can be so spiteful when you call them names.. it mesmerized me). This si very rough, gleaned from assorted notebooks and margin notes and emails when my Xfiles pals were/still hot and heavy with this. I can, if anyone is interested, give a list from my bookshelf and point out interesting websites.

There is a striking image near the end of HW. Max is shown surrounded by red and green lights (not a clue what that means). But Liz is clearly surrounded by a "halo" of white lights. One might even say the tiny bulbs represent starlight.

Now those of us...uhhh..I mean those of you who were panting in anticipation and /or fanning themselves from the steam generated by that kiss (mmm...mmm) might not have noticed this. Perhaps I was looking for it and saw what I wanted to see. Nahhh. I think it was intentional.

As intentional as the "immaculate heart" (?) on Liz' jeans in one episode (which I have not seen) that someone (??Evid) mentioned on another thread. Or the hearts someone else mentioned. Or the abundant ivy someone else remarked on in another episode. Any roses??

I have, or had, an idea (from what I had seen of first season), where the writers/creative team might be going based on my interpretation of Grail themes. Especially with Nutter's prior association with the Xfiles.

But now I have no particular feel, yet, since the creative team/producers appear to have sacrificed some of the storytelling for lights, smoke, mirrors and ratings and concocted (at least at first glance) a potentially absurd save-the-planet plot device and made all the podsters orphans. (Get on with it, Rosta).

The halo of stars and Venus are the symbols of the Magdalen. Vines are associated with the messianic descendant of David (and self-proclaimed descendants such as the Merovingians). The "morning star" is also the star of Jesus. Mary Magdalen is often portrayed with the orb, or oval vine, or red egg. She is associated with the STRAWBERRY (Jesus' mother also). BTW, messianic figures (and the grail knight ) is associated with a bird (usually a dove). Max and his bird. Max in a pose of crucifixion tethered to the wall in WR.

I have referred often to mythology: from Native American and the Grail/Arthurian tales ( with their pagan Celtic, Judaic, Middle-Eastern and Eastern contributions, among others, and with many of the tales later Christianized) and their mythic/narrative significance to modern storytelling, including out beloved Roswell.

But another part of the history/significance of the Grail romances is their esoteric meanings, ie, hidden in symbols and subtext (ie, alchemical), that allowed the popularity of these tales to flourish in spite of the fact that they pushed the bounds of accepted doctrine/dogma and drew charges of heresy but not enough to condemn the various authors and audiences to the bonfires that were starting to heat up the atmosphere. Except the Knights Templar, guardians of the grail in the romances. And the Cathars mainly in the Languedoc region.

The Grail/Holy Grail myths were about a code (messianic code) of democracy, as envisioned by the messianic King, and the descendant Fisher Kings and aspired to by the Knights. The tales were allegorical for the passage from childhood and youth into adulthood, the quest for spirituality/transformation, human reconciliation with nature and the universe (the inner universe with the outer universe). All OUTSIDE of the church's designated heirarchy/succession and ritual. They were about compassion, love, affairs of the heart, and faith. And the quest was expected to be an initiation that presented physical and spiritual challenges/dangers from all realms (ie, natural, supernatural). They also celebrated women , the elevation of women (restoration of the goddess to equal prominence to the god, ie the royal marriage, and associated Tarot images), a concept not accepted by the prevailing powers that were. Mary Magdalen, the legendary matriarch of the Queens of Avallon, embodied: the feminine principle, knowledge (the woman who knows all), great vision, and the wisdom of the cosmos (Sophia). The patriarchal heritage flowed from the Fisher Kings (ie, the messianic family).

The legend goes that Mary Magdalen, with Joseph of Arimathea, fled to the south of France soon after the crucifixion. Legend is she was pregnant (and this is depicted in some Medieval and Renaissance art as is the flight itself with symbols of ships, navigation and water) at the time, the Bride of Jesus. The legend goes that Joseph brought the cup with the blood of Jesus (from the crucifixion) to what would be France, and this is often portrayed as being the the holy grail. But the cup is a symbol of the female and the womb. Some think the cup is a subtext for the royal bloodline, the Sangraal = ? royal/holy blood (??corrupted to holy grail) carried in her womb to France. The legend continues that she suffered continued persecution from the dragon (=Rome) which was slain by the archangel Michael who protected her and her persecuted lineage.

Mary died in 63AD near what is now Marseilles and was buried in the Abby of St. Maximus. At the same time Joseph of A. was erecting the abbey at Glastonbury.

The worship of the Magdalen flourished in the Languedoc region of France (the places of MM and the edifices erected to her are still a strong tourist attraction).

True historical fact. Men, women, children, of the town of Rennes-le-Chateau were destroyed (approx. 15-20,000), and the last holdout of the Cathars (Montsegeur) fell. This took place over a period of many years, starting on the orders of Pope Innocent III, ending in approximately 1240. By then the fires of the Inquisition were burning bright, and the Templars knights (prosperous and influential) fed many a flame. The crimes? Veneration of the Magdalen.. Elevation of the feminine principle (Sophia), which was even represented in the Templar cathedrals (ie, Notre Dame, the mystic Rose= the flower of Venus = MM) and other structures with their alchemical symbols. Indeed, what was accepted was the equality of women (women could preach), and the belief in the relationship between MM and Jesus (the Cathar sect had quite different/complicated views about sex, though).

The real reason for the massacre is most likely related to the rumor of a great Templar treasure being guarded by the Cathars (and never found). Indeed the power of the esoteric grail and/or the mystery surrounding this great treasure or mystical object or great secret hidden in have figured heavily, to this day, in literature, opera, popular books (ie, "8" and "Magic Circle", K. Neville) and entertainment (Xfiles, Star Wars, Matrix). Indeed, the myths drew the interest of one most evil (Hitler), obsessed with possessing the power, to seek the "treasure" as portrayed in Indiana Jones 1.

Relevance to Roswell. A city, society, kingdom, civilization or world perished. We don't know the nature of the conflict. Religious and/or political? Racial? War fought in "heaven" and on earth for the very souls of the people. Opposition to a movement? A leader (BTW, David = ??Beloved; anyone know for sure, I can't verify??) An unauthorized marriage. A longstanding war that has consumed one or many planets? A rift about matters of science? War of independence of those enslaved? What and who are actually evil, relatively speaking. (Many landowners were convinced it was spiritually and morally justified to have slaves in the US before..even after.. the Emancipation). War over a desparate act by desparate people that led to unethical experiments on the inhabitants of another world? Or were they already the original inhabitants?

One can speculate that the reconstitution of the special bloodlines within Max and Liz (an event interrupted back in time or space, perhaps so long ago the cause no longer exists) was/is a cause for a schism. So great is the schism that some/one would kill a 16 year old girl who carries the special bloodline to prevent this. This also suggests a prophecy. Grandma Claudia's book and possible "key" (representative of apocryphal texts?). Prophetic individuals (?Valenti's father) of the old book/ways? The sheriff and possibly Nasedo and maybe others as protectors (Templars) of the great secret?

"It has begun.." What? The return of bell bottoms? Vintage Chryslers? Or the sign of the (reconstituted) leader and the "prophesied/unwanted unfolding of events to come? (ie the emergence of the underground streams (= bloodlines) ). Will someone betray them (?? Tess, ??Kyle) intentionally or planned just when the podsters are settling back in to their lives and let their guard slip thinking Nasedo/Harding is watching.

A word of caution. This is NOT about religion and religious/personal beliefs. This is about storytelling, narrative and myth. It is what it is. I don't know if the creative team borrowed from Matrix or other movies and have not a clue what they tapped into. I cannot validate anyone's published theories, research, beyond what I may accept as historical fact, hypothesis or logical hypothesis from solid scholarship as opposed to sensationalism to sell a book even if it is interesting. That is not my purpose or point. I am about myth and storytelling and the compelling (and repeated) nature of some themes.

I hope people will be interested in discussing things or share comments or provide alternate interpretations or observations, or say..nahhh..those were just lights. I am not even amateur level here. Surely others know more about history, politics, mythology, physics. I know science and medicine and some quantum physics. This, to me, is just FUN. Nothing more. I can withstand the flames..but Michael not washing his hands.....I though I was gonna die... ...Never mind

Rosta

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-11-2000 02:36 PM

quote:

Originally posted by rocklowery Re the healing question, I got the impression from Isabel and Max's conversation about his wounds that they were both capable of healing minor wounds like scrapes and bruises.

rocklowery

I don't know--didn't she turn his face and then remark that they (the cuts & bruises) looked "raw" and why didn't HE heal them? I don't think she offered to heal them or said anything to indicate that she could.

BTW -- poor Michael in Destiny! At that point Max has healed (4) times that we know off (bird, Liz, Michael, Kyle) BUT Michael HAS healed ONCE. He seems to forget that when he says to Max that Max heals but he kills! (After all, Micheal has both killed and healed once each.) But I guess all he "feels" at that point is the weight of taking a life.

BTW notice how different Michael reacts when compared to Nesedo concerning killing!

LSS

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 244 07-11-2000 03:02 PM

hi there,

palomino & sjton: maybe nasedo can shapeshift into a target for the podsters? just kidding, it's been a long day.. anyway, perhaps their use of powers will reflect their emotional response to the situations in the last three episodes?

also, does acknowledgement of the degree of emotions impact the 'hickey-deposit' system for the podsters? michael seems to minimize or deny his emotions, max, doesn't.

rostafehrian: as always i enjoyed your post. striking how the history of our imagery and fable reflects our discomfort with mortality? thus the intense focus on bloodlines, treasure, and power? (as a way to distract from that existential fact?) not sure if this makes sense, just pondering.

and... how do the podsters view mortality pre-dread-momogram? i'm thinking of max and liz running into an apparently burning building to make sure the others were ok? an example of the potential for sacrifice which isn't based necessarily on power, treasure.i'm not sure where i'm going with this so i'll just stop for now.

jenlev

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-11-2000 04:03 PM

Rosta:

I have only a minute (and I will get back to you in a little while) but...just a note about Mary of Magdala...do you know that she is mentioned in the Gospel of Philip (a pseudepgraphical gospel) where the disciples are upset because Jesus doesn't kiss them on the mouth like he does Mary? (I would not make that up.) Anyway, I'm at home but I think I can find that quote if your are interested.

When I teach "Synoptic Gospels" my students always ask about Jesus' sex life. The above reference is the one most cited from antiquity.

Interesting association of Max/Messiah with Liz/Mary of Magdala!!!

More about your post in a little while!

LSS

[Edited by LSS on 07-11-2000 at 07:26 PM]

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 104 07-11-2000 04:13 PM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS Pixiedude:

Is this group "coming back? If not then you might ask yourself why THIS sticker in THIS scene (keep in mind I do not usually "do" the signs thing.

BTW--any idea why that sticker would be there?

It is kind of anachronistic. I thought about that at the time. Kind of like the Radiology vs. Neurology being in the "wrong" place, in a public phone carrel when it should have been somewhere near the staff lounge or the timeclock.

I read about the band about 5 years ago. There was a resurgence of interest in '80's West Coast hardcore punk bands because the band Offspring had several FM hits ("Come Out and Play" was the big one; their most recent was "Pretty Fly for a White Guy," a year or two ago), and Henry Rollins from Black Flag had a kind of spoken word hit called "Liar."

I'm getting off on tangents. Anyway, these musicians had been playing this same sound since it had been the underground new thing in the '80's. I read a few articles about the scene they came from, and the Descendants were referred to as being among the originals. The band broke up, before 1990 I believe, when their lead singer got accepted to med school.

Anyway, a Descendants sticker is not something I would expect to find in a small town student bathroom in a high school this year. Perhaps it was made up just for this show. I imagine that anyone who has actual Descendants ephemera would not easily be persuaded to let the producers use it on the set. More likely, it was made by the prop department. Again, I don't know, and maybe someone did just find it and donate it from their 15-year old basement collection of high school junk. So I expect it means something, but from the scene in the john where it appeared, I couldn't tell you what. I don't recall any of their song titles, and they had no national top 40 hits. For some reason, I remember the name of their last album, which I read in an article about Offspring. It's "Milo Goes to Med School."

If, by some fluke, the Descendants had a huge following in New Mexico during their prime, and there are or were many of their stickers in high schools at one time, they should now be pretty grimy and torn up. The band had its biggest following in California, and it may be that the LA-based directors assume people around the country will "get" something that only Californians and devotees of old punk rock will actually understand.

NiamhF

Level 1 Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 25 07-11-2000 04:22 PM

Hi All,

Isabel did dream walk in Monsters, but Max actually refers to her having dreamwalked once before in their mother's dreams. And how their mother had trouble sleeping for weeks, or something like that.

Also, I caught another Native American reference in last night's episode. Valenti arrested Maria's mother when she was 16 for protesting a Native American landmark of some sort (didn't quite catch what it was).

Niamh

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 183 07-11-2000 07:30 PM

Rosta, this bump's for you!

BTW, could the Descendants sticker be some kind of inside joke of the props crew?

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-11-2000 10:44 PM

quote:

Originally posted by rocklowery BTW, could the Descendants sticker be some kind of inside joke of the props crew?

You know it could very well be!!! And that is precisely the problem I have with the "sign" approach to interpretation. You know if we were simply in a written text, I would say that every element (words, structure, location, etc.) is in some way functional. And I would argue the same thing for Roswell's dialogue. But when it comes to background props, etc. I am really NOT on grounds where I feel comfortable. That is why I graciously (I hope) defer to the likes of Nemo and Gracekel...and for mythic context and interpretation to Rosta and amx.

Take for instance that sticker on the paper towel dispensor. Why in the world would it be there? [BTW thanks Pixiedude for some excellent background on the Descendants!!!] It does seem a bit (okay, more than a bit, weird. BUT can we attribute plot significance to that "weirdness"? Or does someone in the props department (or whoever it is that sets those stages) have a "thing" for that group and thought it would be a hoot to put it in there?

I KNOW you do not fill dialogue with extraneous materials--what I don't know is when a background element is significant or not.

NEMO--we really do need you...I'm going to e-mail you at the office and see what you have to say about that elusive sticker!!

Pixiedude: Thanks again...what a sleuth!!!

Rosta: I always find your posts fascinating! They are "familar" enough for me to follow and contribute, but "different" enough to tickle my interest.

I have a technical question for you: I'm curious...when you do your analysis, you sometimes pull across mythic systems. How does that "work"? Is the grail/quest the foundation of your analysis and then you use bits and pieces of other mythic paradigms as they "fit"? Or are there simply mythic archetypes (like the eternal Hero) that function as core images in whatever system and it is this that transcends system boundaries?

As for your post above...you implied that in lives past something between M/L might have occasioned the conflict on the home planet...are you envisoning M/L as part of a pattern that transcends death into eternity (or until they get it right)? You know, I'd love to see you write a series like that. Hey--we've had RE and future arcs...why not go into the distant past and recover that original conflict? Have you ever done fanfic writing?

BTW--for the spoiled...we are now seeing the first of the spoilers for the second season posted on crashdown's spoiler page. If you are spoiled check it out. There is a tidbit about SF eppys to come.

LSS

ROStaFEHRian

Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 60 07-11-2000 10:57 PM

LSS- very much looking forward to your comments. You teach the Synoptic Gospels, too?! I am impressed. I'd love to see your bookshelves. Now I know where to go for questions and help with clarification. Do you teach any of the Gnostic gospels?

I am familiar with the quote, if not the origin. I don't know the gospel (perhaps it is Philip) that states emphatically that MM was Jesus' beloved and most loved and favored and the kissing. I think the comparison with L/M is appropriate because of the intense blazing love between to special people. And this ep, HW, was about passionate, blazing (eternal) love (almost melted my VCR).

Do you know the reference for the story that Jesus felt ?MM's (I'm not sure if it was MM in this story) blazing love that so powerful that he held his own flaming heart to show how his heart had been touched by a love so intense. This came to mind at the mention of the heart on Liz' jeans someone else posted about.

Re the discussion on the SFofLN thread..I suggested a scenario that Max might give up his life in service to his principles or to save his loved ones. Some of that feeling came from what I posted above. But I forgot to mention..there are those stones. This might tie into the question of relative healing powers. Perhaps someone else (Liz?Iz?Mi?) may evolve the capacity to be able to "heal" Max. Of course I really think that for this TV show and younger audience, they would most likely (if they even contemplate this route) go for the symbolic death/rebirth/evolution route.

BTW-should I move what I posted above to a separate thread. I don't want to hijack this thread. At the time, I was thinking if the ep was sci-fi lite, perhaps it among the supernatural strong and that might fuel the discussion.

JENLEV- You always come up with a great word/phrase that captures a great concept. Mortality and the podsters thoughts pre/post recent events. I like this and it should be discussed in each SF of thread. Max say's "we want to STAY ALIVE". That is obvious but stated in a powerful way. They have obviously (with justification that has been more imagined than actual knowledge), been living in fear of capture and death. Yet Max has had some sense of his healing powers, if not the extent, and surely, as Iz has said about not getting sick, they must have wondered about this. Since the Max' brush with death in WR, the scares in BALANCE, the knowledge of their creation, and other things surely has influenced their thoughts on mortality. Good thought.

PIXIEDUDE- thanks for all the research and information on the rock group Descendants. I thought the sign might refer to such as well as have some other meaning. It's great to have so many people with so much varied knowledge and experiences to contribute.

NIAMHF- What ep mentioned that Iz dreamwalked into her mother's dream? I think that is very significant. I wonder why she did not have a sense of trust (or did but has not disscussed to my knowledge) from this experience? Perhpas this facility where Amy demonstrated has some meaning for the story. I was again impressed with the importance of the parents (well portrayed by all involved) in this story and my fears are again heightened that they will not adequatley address these relationships.

Hi ROCKLOWERY- thanks for the shameless bump!! I saw a post of yours on another thread I wanted to respond to but I lost it. I'll try to fins it. BTW- I wanted to make a little joke about your "shameless bump" on the SFofLN thread in response to Shapeshifters remarks about a questionable, possibly Xrated banner ad that appeared a few nights ago and which I also noted with some surprise.

Nemo

Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 484 07-11-2000 11:51 PM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS NEMO: Okay -- now you have got ME started on this "signs" thing.

I hope you enjoy it. I'd like to tell you where I picked up the habit. When my son and the neighbor's daughter were little, I often read them stories. Our favorites were the "Church mice" series by Graham Oakley, in which half the story and most of the jokes are hidden in the picture details. (Also often in the names.) This was the best fun in years, though I couldn't have imagined it would be useful training for Roswell. Also, shapeshifter, you posted on plumeria's thread that it would be fun if the connections between the picture details and the story were not put there by the writers but by the universe itself, as if these little items had lives of their own. I love this idea. I can just imagine all those little objects envying the actors and trying to get in on the fun of telling part of the story (perhaps far in advance), even hoping to steal the scene. In the books just mentioned, some of those eager background items do have lives and even foibles of their own: check out the endpaper of The Church Mice At Bay, where some of those little guys are laughing at their buddies' error, while erring themselves. But, back to the topic:

quote:

Did you notice the paper dispensor in the boy's bathroom? Did it say "descendant" ?... If it does then what do you think is its significance?

It says DESCENDENT. (The last E gives it more of an adjective flavor.) Selected dictionary entries: 1. going down. 2. deriving from an ancestor, or from an earlier form. I suspect both meanings are intended:

1) Michael brings up the idea of temptation. The strong slant of the sign reinforces the sense of a slippery slope. Also, the Roman proverb facilis descensus Averno, easy is the descent to Hell [Vergil, Aeneid, 6:126]. Later, in TLV, that same sign is there when Max struggles with stronger temptation. [That's where I first noticed the sign; posted about it on the SF thread and later on plumeria's. But I hadn't noticed it yet in this episode. LSS, thanks for pointing it out. Here you have beat me at my own game.]

2) Later, this sign is seen aligned with Max's shoulder. Here I think it foreshadows AlienMom's message about a former life as a ruler.

----------

The web site http://www.deathmetal.com/descendent/ tells of a rock group DESCENDENT from Toledo starting in 1993. (This is the one I mentioned in my previous posts.) Pixiedude, perhaps this is a different outfit? It looks more recent and the spelling is the same as the sign.

Their web site mentions phrases like "past meets future" and "a new era of aggression," making me wonder how much their stuff has to tell about the story, especially the evil aliens. Also, one of their titles is "The Heir Apparent." Hmmm.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-12-2000 at 12:22 AM]

Nemo

Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 484 07-12-2000 12:59 AM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS I KNOW you do not fill dialogue with extraneous materials--what I don't know is when a background element is significant or not.

As a humble physicist -- what would I know about rules for the visual arts? I just go by intuition: sometimes it seems as if certain items are being called to our attention. When it takes a strong change of focus to bring the item into view, like that Radiology vs. Neurology sign, it seem pretty likely that we are supposed to notice. Other times it's more subtle -- odd camera angles, or dwelling for a moment, or sweeping across something at the start of a scene, like that strange calendar in Atherton's basement.

For example, notice the dart board at the foot of the stairs in the back of the cafe? When Liz arrives down those stairs, she passes in front of that dart board. It's brief, and without a pause, if I remember right, but she does get in front of it twice, and the camera angle puts it at head level. Significant? "Signal" or "noise"? as pixiedude puts it. Well, in ITW it's a little more blatant: she pauses there much longer. Is it being suggested that Liz is someone's target? By the time we get to MTTM, that dart board might have grounds to say, like Milton, "I told you so."

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 244 07-12-2000 03:27 AM

hi there,

rostafehrian: thank you! you are appreciatred! and here's a question/thought... so given time how does the 'dread-momogram' effect the podsters sense of their own mortality and vunerability? does this become a way to alienate them further from humans, or does the fact that 'that they have died/lived before' help to to actually identify more with human frailty?

given the portrayal of the podster's powers is it feasable that the podsters would be in a position to use their skills unconsciously? therefor they might be healing themselves automatically and not even be aware of it? (responding to a cold, flu, etc. sort of like a computer anti-virus program?) or, applying their power when phsysically interacting with others without even thinking about it depending on the level of their emotional involvement? (ok, i admitt it i'm thinking about the apparent inconsistancy regarding the hickeys which was brought up earlier.)

nemo & lss & pixiedude: i love the 'signal vs. noise' reference. on some level is it possible to know unless one talks with the prop-master or the producers/directors? or is that too concrete?

jenlev

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-12-2000 06:18 AM

quote:

Originally posted by Nemo

Also, shapeshifter, you posted on plumeria's thread that it would be fun if the connections between the picture details and the story were not put there by the writers but by the universe itself, as if these little items had lives of their own.

Actually that is exactly what literary critics argue about texts! Whether or not authors intend certain meanings, written texts DO have a life of their own and construct their own story universe. You could argue that the same thing goes for visual texts! So Plumeria and Nemo...when you say it would be fun "if" ... you are right on target (except you don't need the "if").

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-12-2000 06:41 AM

Rosta:

YOU SAID: "very much looking forward to your comments. You teach the Synoptic Gospels?"

I think our posts crossed...look above for some comments/questions! Also--about the Gospels--my field is Hebrew Scriptures/Ancient Near Eastern Texts. I have a secondary expertise in New Testament and also offer courses in Religion and the Radical Right (Aryan Nations, KKK, etc.) and SF. The SF course is pure fun, by the way. In no other course can I assign 8 books, 20 short stories and 4 movies and not hear a peep of complaint from students!!!

YOU SAID: "I don't know the gospel (perhaps it is Philip) that states emphatically that MM was Jesus' beloved and most loved and favored and the kissing. I think the comparison with L/M is appropriate because of the intense blazing love between to special people. And this ep, HW, was about passionate, blazing (eternal) love (almost melted my VCR)."

I'm e-mailing you some material this afternoon about Mary of Magdala in antiquity.

YOU SAID: Perhaps someone else (Liz?Iz?Mi?) may evolve the capacity to be able to "heal" Max."

AnneM's fanfic "Goodnight Elizabeth" is a good example of an "altered Liz" story that ultimately has Liz dev. the power to heal Max. In a poignant moment, after Max has healed everyone else (but is himself in pain) a teary eyed Liz remarks--Max, who heals YOU? It is an emotional scene! Later, Liz tries and as she tries she "remembers" how to do it! (Not only is she altered, but their souls have been unitied through eternity). It is a great read...AnneM is an exceptional author (BTW it is NC17 I should warn you).

YOU SAID: "BTW-should I move what I posted above to a separate thread. I don't want to hijack this thread. At the time, I was thinking if the ep was sci-fi lite, perhaps it among the supernatural strong and that might fuel the discussion."

Whaaaa? Why would you want to move it? You have always been a perceptive and interesting poster and are strongly encouraged to continue. As for hijacking?????????? Pshaw! Although these threads start out on the current eppy they often are far-ranging in content!!!

YOU SAID- "What ep mentioned that Iz dreamwalked into her mother's dream?"

"Monsters"--we find out about this in the bedroom scene where Max and Liz are talking about their alien identities/past.

LSS

Nemo

Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 484 07-12-2000 06:45 AM

Hi, LSS.

Thanks for the interesting reply. Today maybe I will notice your messages sooner. Before, my household was disconnected by a USWest system upgrade, and restored by tens of hours' effort by the family computer experts, my wife and son. (Last night brought further duties: they were on backyard patrol at 3 am in their nightclothes with swords and staves, fending off raiding raccoons.)

Rosta, thanks for pointing out the lights around Max and Liz. First time around, this was the next-to-last episode before Christmas, and that seemed to sufficiently explain the lights. But now I think the arrangement, at least around Liz, may mean something, though I'm not sure what. My guess would be: red and green around Max = conflicting thoughts: stop/go? (Funny how the loop of lights on one side of Max's head outlines an exaggerated ear. That's one feature they seem to enjoy exaggerating.) The white halo around Liz: well, there have been hints of Liz as Madonna; is this another? (Is it a joke to combine symbols ancient and modern so closely?) What do you think, Rosta?

BTW, have you seen Morning After? There was the first Madonna reference I noticed, though others have pointed out the "Protector of Earth" sign (and certain heart symbols?) already in the Pilot.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-12-2000 at 07:23 AM]

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-12-2000 06:56 AM

I apologize for the multiple posts, but I've not mastered the art of multiple quotes (in fact I don't know if you can even do them). Anyway:

NiamhF: Good observation. Any idea as to where we might be going with all this (aside from the fact that we are in NM by a reservation)? I DO think there is much more to it, but don't know just what.

jenlev: Interesting questions about conscious/unconscious use of powers. In Blood Brothers I think a case could be made for Max's recuperation based on unconscious (regenerative?) activity.

And a very interesting observation concerning whether momogram will ultimatly reinforce their identification with humanity or instead, with that "alien essence" component. What do you think?

Nemo: beat you at your own game??? Who are you kidding? Remember, I've sat by you playing Roswell Trivia--you are THE MAN! As far as intuition is concerned--I was talking to Tepp once and we agreed that often in analysis one starts with intuition and then works back to logic!!!

LSS

NiamhF

Level 1 Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 25 07-12-2000 08:07 AM

From LSS: NiamhF: Good observation. Any idea as to where we might be going with all this (aside from the fact that we are in NM by a reservation)? I DO think there is much more to it, but don't know just what.

Hi LSS, I'm not sure if just it's just proximity to a reservation that is causing all these coincidences. There's just so many of them. There's Liz's grandmother's book on Native American culture, there's Amy's arrest for protecting the Nat. Amer. landmark, and of course there is the pendant and Lasado's involvement with the Native Americans. Other sci fi shows also have elements like these. I believe the XFiles have following possible links between aliens and ancient cultures of the Americas and Africa. Perhaps the suggestion there is that aliens encounters have occured before and if you look at the civilizations that were on earth at those times you may find evidence of these visits. I don't know if there is any significance to the timing of Amy's arrest. She said she was sixteen at the time. How old is she now? Is it possible that this demonstration occured around the time that the four emerged from the pods? If so, is there any significance to that.

From ROStaFEHRian: NIAMHF- What ep mentioned that Iz dreamwalked into her mother's dream? I think that is very significant. I wonder why she did not have a sense of trust (or did but has not disscussed to my knowledge) from this experience?

I only saw the ep once, and my memory is foggy at best BUT I think it was the episode right after Maria's first finds out and M/M/I are afraid that Maria's going to tell Valenti. Is tells Max that she is going to dreamwalk to find out what Maria's thinking, and Max responds with the reference to her having dream walked in her mother's dreams. It was either in that ep or in the episode where Max quenches the fire and his mom gets suspicious. I can't remember the ep, I just remember him saying it. Perhaps someone else can remember......

Niamh

shapeshifter

Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 448 07-12-2000 08:42 AM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS quote:

Originally posted by Nemo

Also, shapeshifter, you posted on plumeria's thread that it would be fun if the connections between the picture details and the story were not put there by the writers but by the universe itself, as if these little items had lives of their own.

LSS

Thank you, Nemo & LSS for responding to this. Actually, though, I think I am slightly off 'target' with my concept, but LSS, you (or maybe Rosta, or BehrAll if she's lurking) will probably know for sure. Nemo, you seem to think my 'theory' is like a real-life version of the Disney Beauty and the Beast, with the teacups and brooms and other objects having a life of their own. And, if I understand you correctly, LSS, you speak of a parallel universe, but one that is still fictional. I am suggesting that this parallel plot that is drawn by cooincidences, juxtapositions, oft-repeated texts, etc. is part of the greater reality in which both the fictional and the 'real' world exist. Also, rather than, say, the dart board willing the cameraman and Liz to pause in front of itself, there is a Greater power that arranges such things when the cameraman and Shiri are not choreographing it. Have I now made myself as clear as mud? Hopefully if I go on you will not all glaze over, but here goes: I also believe that some things (like the Neurology vs. Radiology poster) were deliberately put up as props to set the stage as well as just because they were wacky fun. The Yahoo! on Kyle's melted locker vs. the large Men sign over Max and Michael seems an example of this. But, according to my theory, these deliberate stage devices are within the larger framework of the parallel universe that is encompasses the Roswell show, this discussion thread, and even the battles of human families with raccoons.

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1265 07-12-2000 01:00 PM

quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter if I understand you correctly, LSS, you speak of a parallel universe, but one that is still fictional. I am suggesting that this parallel plot that is drawn by cooincidences, juxtapositions, oft-repeated texts, etc. is part of the greater reality in which both the fictional and the 'real' world exist.

....

I also believe that some things (like the Neurology vs. Radiology poster) were deliberately put up as props to set the stage as well as just because they were wacky fun. The Yahoo! on Kyle's melted locker vs. the large Men sign over Max and Michael seems an example of this. But, according to my theory, these deliberate stage devices are within the larger framework of the parallel universe that is encompasses the Roswell show, this discussion thread, and even the battles of human families with raccoons.

Okay shapeshifter...I followed you up to the families with raccoons!

Yeah--I was referring to a different "fictive" Roswell. That is there is: 1) a Roswell that the authors intended and 2) a Roswell that is created as the sum total of what is finally screened. In that latter we could have an altered Liz, for example, which in the former the authors did not intend to create an impression of.

Just curious what "directs" the movement in your theory of an alternative universe?

LSS

07-12-2000 01:21 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 quote:

Originally posted by LSS ...Okay shapeshifter...I followed you up to the families with raccoons!

That was in reference to Nemo's post (above) and an attempt to include the 'real' world outside these boards as part of the larger parallel universe. quote:

...Just curious what "directs" the movement in your theory of an alternative universe? LSS

Ahh, that is probably for physicists and teachers of theology to postulate!

07-12-2000 02:35 PM

Angel Parker

Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 107 Some thoughts on Isabel dreamwalking and the significance of it in Heat Wave.

Okay I know the books and the TV Show are different, but something struck me as odd. First off in the books the pod squad can control the dreams of the people they dreamwalk (i.e. If Isabel dreamwalked Alex and he was having a bad dream she could change it, making it into a good dream and not just because of her presence in his dream.)

Now with that in mind I discussing this in a thread awhile back, about what exactly Isabel's power to dreamwalk is. Can she control dreams? Manipulate them? Or just observe and interact with the dreamer? And is the dreamer aware of an outside force controling and or invading his or her dream?

To find these answers we must go back to the first time we see Isabel dreamwalk.

Monsters (Maria) : Isabel goes there to find out what Maria might do, now she tells Maria that she's not really part of her dream and that she can't control the dream. But what does this mean really? Did Isabel not tell the whole truth so she wouldn't frighten Maria any more then she already has? Or Is Isabel unaware of her full power in the dream plane? In this episode we also learned that Isabel has dreamwalked at least once before with their Mom and that Mom couldn't sleep for a week after. Why is that? What could have made their mom not sleep for a week after?

Heat Wave (Alex) : Isabel dream walks again only this time it's Alex (Note: Isabel also wears the same nightclothes as she does when she dreamwalks Maria what relevance this has, if any, I don't know. /Also note: that this is the third time Isabel has dreamwalked that we know of.) and she unexpectedly sees herself in his dream. In Alex's dream ~Isabel~ asks, "What do you think really think of me?" (Not exact quote) The question there is would Alex really dream Isabel saying that? Wouldn't he be more likely to dream of kissing her or if she did talk in his dream wouldn't they be more likely talk about Alex wanting to start a band or the band he already has? This question just seems like something that the real Isabel would ask, is she subconsciously manipulating his dream?

White Room (Max) : This dreamwalk is different then the others that we've seen so far this time Isabel has dreamwalked an alien. The only alien she has dreamwalked, (unless you believe the Maria being a human alien hybrid theory) but what stuck out in my mind is that Isabel asks her brother to stop this [~Isabel~ "Max stop this! You gotta help me." ~Max~ "I can't they gave me something"] this sentence seems to suggest that they can manipulate dreams. Also from what we've already seen it seems to suggest the only reason Isabel couldn't was because she was disorientated. Also of interest is the two in white that take Isabel out of Max's dream when she doesn't want to go.

(Note: Some theorize that if humans were to be able to realize that we were dreaming, we could while still dreaming change the dream to what we want.) This means that once Max realized he was dreaming [i.e. Isabel's visit] he could then change it or take her out of the dream.

Destiny (Pierce) : This dreamwalk is also different from the others because Pierce is awake. Now she doesn't change any of her surroundings in the dream, but she does skim Pierce' mind for information and successfully gets that information.

So what does everyone think? I would love to hear your ideas.

Angel Parker

07-12-2000 02:41 PM

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there,

lss: i agree with what you said about max's possible self healing in blood brothers. he wouldn't have had to do a 'presto-chango' version of the healing... it could be that he just got better faster then he might have otherwise done, and was less woozy upon awakening?

and i think the 'dread-momogram' will have the effect of re-inforcing their humanity... perhaps to a different degree with each of them depending on their personalities? the longer they think about it the more it's going to kick up the issue of what was done to them by being engeneered and sent to earth? not sure on this one.

angel parker: i have a sense that when isabel 'dreamwalked' max in the white room that she was venturing into his conscious awareness rather then into a r.e.m. state of dreamland. of course, i'm speculating and have no real idea... but it's fun to do so.

jenlev

07-12-2000 05:33 PM

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 quote:

Originally posted by Nemo

[Edited by Nemo on 07-12-2000 at 12:22 AM]

I checked it out. This is a different group. There's no mention on their site about ordering bumper stickers (I think; now I'll have to double check. There was lots about ordering tshirts and albums).

Pretty darn obscure reference, if it was intentional. The site apparently hasn't been updated since 1996, because there's a reference to a 3rd album release date "tentatively" set for 1996. And it looks like a regional act, at most. Though it says that they did once tour with Cannibal Corpse, which even I have heard of, so maybe one of the Roswell creators caught one of their tour gigs 5 years ago.

An alternative possibility for the tilt (besides representing the "slippery slope" of temptation) is that they needed to tilt it to get the whole word visible, given the dimensions of the paper towel dispensor.

Looking at the album titles on the Descendents home page, there are several that could conceivably be applied. If I remember the 5 titles on their first tape correctly, it was "Self-Submissive," "Heir Apparent", "GodSeed," (heck now I can't recall the last 2). A subsequent release included, "I Am God Here." But this also sounds like one of the basic memes of boy rock, from Mick Jagger to Eminem, roughly, "I'm a big shot, even if I look like a loser." That alone could earn it a spot in a high school student men's room, with no other meaning.

The group's bio page talks about their artistic philosophy. I know even less about this scene than I do about punk rock, but I used to work at a Kinko's, and every few months a guy who published a zine about British death metal brought it in to be run off, and much of the stuff like "new age of aggression" sounds like generic death-metal hype. But there's a phrase about "the ratio between technological progression and instinctual regression" which could be construed as a clue to the causes of the alien war, and support for a time travel theme.

Speaking of time: someone asked if Amy De Luca was protesting destruction of the native Am landmark around the time the podsters emerged. Amy says she was 18 at the time. Maria is now 16. The podsters emerged in 1989. If Amy was 18 years old 11 years ago, she would have had to have given birth to Maria when she was 14, in 1985. Possible, but not likely. Amy looks more like she's in her mid-to-late thirties than late '20's.

07-12-2000 06:23 PM

Jamethiel

Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 14 Just a comment on Amy DeLuca's age when Maria was born. There was a news clip on the Crashdown news archive a while back where the actress stated that she was sixteen when when she had Maria. This would make Maria two years old when Amy was arrested.

Other thoughts and comments:

Regarding the "inner life" of signs & symbols; 1)Tess tells Isobel they are all around her, 2) there is a theory called "deconstruction" that looks at the meaning of signs & symbols over time versus their meaning in a certain time and place. One example is the word "Madonna." A thirteenth century teenager would have known only one meaning for the word "Madonna" whereas a late 19th century teenager couldn't be sure without looking at context.

I personally subscribe to a different theory that says that all signs & symbols constantly change meaning as they are "read" by the viewer. An example of this is the discussion groups on the Fan Forum Board regarding Liz as a "Madonna."

Re: Native American references. There has to be a strong inference that the writers are leading us in a certain direction with all the Native American "hints." I was especially intrigued by the Native American music played in "White Room." I think the Native American themes will wind up being very significant for the podsters.

Re: the science fiction of the "silver-handprint thingy" - it doesn't appear to be gender specific as Tess used a silver handprint to retrieve "the book" from the library in 4 square. I have a theory that the silver handprint reflects a use of the alien power to alter space/time more than just manipulate molecules. This would explain why the silver handprint only shows up in certain situations (Nasedo killing), Max healing someone (Liz) very close to death versus "straight healing" (Kyle), and or Michael with Riverdog. Can you think of more examples?

07-12-2000 06:26 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Jenlev and LSS : This is part of what I had posted on another thread about Max self-healing in BB:

People wake up from being knocked out all the time without any superhuman powers. Just ask any TV cowboy, PI, or police detective.

Max's injury was very vague. No medical personel said he had cracked his skull, there was bleeding in the brain, some of the brains were missing or scrambled, or there was a chunk of steering wheel embedded in his brain. It was probably a simple concussion (like we often see in the horse world.) As far as we know, this was a totally normal injury, that was recovered from in a totally normal manner. If the writers or TPTB had wanted to say he self-healed, then they would have made this an obviously fatal or dangerous injury, and made a point of it. The FBI would also have used it as proof against him.

When he was brought into the ER, the staff treated it like a potentially fatal injury - which they do to all, thankfully. If you noticed, the doctor certainly didn't think it was so bad after he looked at the x-rays, because he removed the oxygen, back board, and restraints that would have immobilized a neck injury. As soon as I saw Max when Isabel arrived, I knew the hospital staff had concluded it wasn't serious; they were just waiting for him to wake up. If he had remain unconscious for a longer time, they would have been concerned more, and planned to do more testing.

No doctor said, "It's a miracle!", "He must be an alien", or "That was sooo unusual that we have to run as many tests as your insurance allows".

As Reggie pointed out right after that, healing by powers is a conscious effort of the mind, not body. Max was unconscious, so unable. If he had unconsciously healed himself by powers, he would also have done it in his sleep during "Leaving Normal", even though he made a conscious choice not to.

Angel Parker : Isabel seems to be pushing her powers and has so far not found their limits. She had not apparently tried to go beyond dreamwalking before. In "Destiny", Max healed Kyle with less effort, not needing to look him in the eye, and also dry-cleaning the T-shirt at the same time. Michael found he could shoot energy at an enemy, when before, he could not.

Max was right when he said they might be more powerful than even they know. Their powers may have been either untried, or are growing. It will be interesting to see where they go with this.

07-12-2000 06:31 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 Thanks for checking out that rock group so thoroughly, pixiedude.

About the sign, I see what you mean, that the slope helps fit it into the available space. But doesn't it look as if the angle was set to match Max's shoulder in that one scene? It looks like foreshadowing that Max will have much responsibility on his shoulders, because of his origins.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-12-2000 at 07:13 PM]

07-12-2000 06:44 PM

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there,

jamethiel: wow, cool idea about the silver handprint being a representation of the altering of 'space time'! so are the podsters somehow able to go into (dare i say) a "rift in the space time continuim" and gather some resource there? the space time continuim would make a good and storage locker. would this connect to what is speculated about event horizons bending the space time continuim at the edge of black holes?

palomino & reggie: good points about the mind being what triggers the healing. a quick question aside; while unconscious is the 'unconscious' mental experience still active? i'm totally not sure about this.

and what you said about the writers making a point of the extent of the injury and the self healing makes perfect sense. also, the fbi would definately have figured this out as they were all over that scene.

i also agree that the doctor was clearly not worried, certainly he wouldn't have concurred with max going home otherwise.

i was knocked unconscious some years back in a horseback riding accident, and was sent home the same day myself... don't recall any x-rays....although i don't recall much of anything else either (heh heh heh). coming too, and being alert can take different amounts of time depending on the nature of the injury etc. so as you said, the doctors would be looking for a window of opportunity regarding max's recovery.

jenlev

07-12-2000 07:08 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Jamethiel One example [of variation of symbol meaning over time] is the word "Madonna." A thirteenth century teenager would have known only one meaning for the word "Madonna" whereas a late 19th century teenager couldn't be sure without looking at context.

What do you make of this example?

MARIA (to Liz, in Morning After): OK, so one trip to the eraser room and you�re like above working? Go get your uniform on, Madonna. The masses are demanding alien-themed, greasy food and by God, it�s our job to serve it to them. [emphasis added]

Doesn't it look like playing games with context? I'm not sure what it means, maybe the writers were just having fun. But I doubt that it's mere coincidence that the last sentence slyly packs in several keywords more common to a different sense of Madonna than when the term is first introduced.

I don't mean to make a big deal about this, but I do think the writers enjoy word games.

07-12-2000 07:37 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Jamethiel

Re: the science fiction of the "silver-handprint thingy" ... I have a theory that the silver handprint reflects a use of the alien power to alter space/time....

I love it. Maybe someday we will learn that the right/left handprint in the Pilot and the "5-days-ago" journal entries from two different days were not bloopers but hints of alien alteration of spacetime....

07-12-2000 09:06 PM

amx

Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 597 Hey all, I�ve been ghosting rather than posting on these threads as a consequence of work commitments.

I just wanted to throw this into the ring in respect of the space-time discussion. In particular, I would be interested in your thoughts, physics-person Nemo!

On a science news server I subscribe to, it was recently posted that the speed of light has now been demonstrated experimentally to NOT be a constant. Apparently, Dr Lijun Wang (NEC Research Institute - Princeton) has accelerated light pulses to up to 300 times their theoretical maximum velocity (186 0000 miles per second) if the speed of light were a constant. A second group of scientist in Italy have had similar successes propagating microwaves at 25% above the theoretical maximum. There is supposedly an article awaiting final approval by the reviewers of Nature in which full details of Wang�s results will be provided. The preliminary report I�ve read states:

�What bothers physicists is that if light can travel forward in time, it could carry information. This would breach one of the basic principles in physics - causality, which says that a cause must come before an effect.�

So, cause-effect may merge and space-time may be malleable; the idea that the connection/soulmate bond between Max/Liz could transcend the current reality-stream and notions of the once-and-forever king may not be so far fetched after all!

Sorry to post- and-run!

amx

07-12-2000 10:00 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 amx, that's news to me. I will keep an eye out for this. The physics news site I watch hasn't mentioned it yet. http://www.aip.org/enews/latest/physnews.htm

My impression is that in the story universe there are no speed limits. Natural processes can go at any rate the story needs: intergalactic travel times are not burdensome; a red star that was no problem 50 years ago may have suddenly become a giant: AlienMom's planet may be engulfed by now.

Destruction of the home planet appears to be described in SH and foreshadowed in this episode (HW). Also, here are the earliest clues I have noticed about Tess and her sad fate.

Oh, in the bio. classroom, wasn't there a human-body sketch with a line bisecting it from top to bottom? I thought that might symbolize the idea of human-alien hybrids.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-13-2000 at 02:46 PM]

07-12-2000 10:50 PM

amx

Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 597 Nemo - thanks! I am anxiously awaiting full publication myself. I obtained it from a news group allied to the "Mad Scientists Network" whose url I can't remember at present. Some other commentary by Wang that was referred to in the news item suggests that he believes his results are only applicable to light and may be related to the rather strange behaviour of light at a sub-atomic level: allied to the tunnelling effect observed in other experiments (ie the photon crossing a barrier in zero time).

I think it would be very interesting from a philosophical point of view if the notions of linearity embodied in the western concept of time are seriously challenged by the essentially western paradigm of modern science!

I agree that we have had intimations that the home planet may be facing more than just an alien invasion force. I wonder whether it is the writer's 'trap door' - a destroyed home planet menas the destiny scenario unravels quite neatly, freeing the writers from tricky considerations - such as moving the action to the home planet. Personally, I hope they take the way out that it offers! The way that this whole destiny scenario seems likley to progress leaves a somewhat sour taste in my mouth.

Looking at the biology class diagram more from a biological perspective, I always assumed it was either illustrating bilateral symmetry or (as is common in such diagrams) illustrating the musculo-skeletal system on one half and internal organs on the other. I shall get my tapes out and look more closely though.

amx

07-13-2000 12:11 AM

sjton

Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 89 Angel Parker, you asked if the dreamer might be aware that someone was in their dream and why Alex would dream up the question Dream Isabel asked.

My thought is that maybe he sensed her in his dream and subconsciously tried to show her his true feelings for her.

quote:

Angel Parker said: (Note: Some theorize that if humans were to be able to realize that we were dreaming, we could while still dreaming change the dream to what we want.) This means that once Max realized he was dreaming [i.e. Isabel's visit] he could then change it or take her out of the dream.

I can't prove it scientifically, but I believe that I have consciously influenced events in my own dreams.

quote:

amx said: Hey all, I've been ghosting rather than posting on these threads as a consequence of work commitments.

I just wanted to throw this into the ring in respect of the space-time discussion. In particular, I would be interested in your thoughts, physics-person Nemo!

On a science news server I subscribe to, it was recently posted that the speed of light has now been demonstrated experimentally to NOT be a constant. Apparently, Dr Lijun Wang (NEC Research Institute - Princeton) has accelerated light pulses to up to 300 times their theoretical maximum velocity (186 0000 miles per second) if the speed of light were a constant. A second group of scientist in Italy have had similar successes propagating microwaves at 25% above the theoretical maximum. There is supposedly an article awaiting final approval by the reviewers of Nature in which full details of Wang's results will be provided. The preliminary report I've read states:

"What bothers physicists is that if light can travel forward in time, it could carry information. This would breach one of the basic principles in physics - causality, which says that a cause must come before an effect."

Sorry to post- and-run!

amx

quote:

Nemo said: amx, that's news to me. I will keep an eye out for this. The physics news site I watch hasn't mentioned it yet.

http://www.aip.org/enews/latest/physnews.htm

amx, Nemo: did you know that over the past (I think) two hundred years almost a dozen different scientist measured the speed of light using the same method (I can't remember how, because it was a few years ago when I studied this and I don't want to go looking for my notes right now) and each one of them got slower readings. One of two things could have happened here, either some or all of the experiments were invalid, or time may actually be slowing down. I don't have my notes with me right now so I can't really discuss the method they used, but I thought you guys might find this interesting anyway.

Also I thought that the Special Theory of Relativity said that time is a property of mass and acceleration. Wouldn't that mean that time for a planet near the center of a spiral galaxy would be different, than a planet in the outer reaches of the same galaxy because they would be traveling at different speeds.

This is not concrete evidence, but it would give credence to the research of Dr Lijun Wang (NEC Research Institute - Princeton)

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if time isn't linear maybe it wouldn't be such a stretch for the aliens to be able to manipulate it. In the books they can manipulate both time and space, but it's very draining so they need a month or two to recuperate.

I'll have to visit the Web site you mentioned Nemo, when I get some time.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "People like us who believe in Physics, know that; The distinctions between the Past, the Present, and the Future, are just a stubbornly persistent illusion." -(My hero) Albert Einstein. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

sjton The SciFi nut

07-13-2000 12:56 AM

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 quote:

Originally posted by Nemo

Destruction of the home planet appears to be described in SH and foreshadowed in this episode (HW). Also, here are the earliest clues I have noticed about Tess and her sad fate. [Edited by Nemo on 07-12-2000 at 10:18 PM]

I missed these clues. Did you already post them elsewhere? Let me know where, if you remember. Tess and her sad fate? I understand she's scheduled for all of next season.

07-13-2000 03:16 AM

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there,

nemo: regarding what you said about the silver hanprint reversed in the pilot episode... maybe they went through the "looking glass" like alice?

amx: regarding what you said about light waves carrying information. are you referring also to the idea that light waves carry the image/imprint of the last image they bounce off of? (not sure if i got this right)

stjon: regarding time not being linear. love that. t.s. elliot said "time past, and time present are both contained in time future, and time future contained in time past." and lao tsu said "a wise man looks into space, and does not regard the small as too little, nor the large as too big for he knows there are no limits to dimensions"

i love how different fields all examine and approach the idea that time is not linear. i think our western culture is beginning to think about this more openly. (i hope) certainly if time isn't linear that opens up all sorts of possiblities for the podsters response to the 'dread-momogram'? as adverstised..." save the galaxy while relaxing at home in your favorite easy chair!"

jenlev

07-13-2000 05:43 AM

LSS

Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 What great posts!!!

Nemo/amx/jenlev/Rosta/pixiedude, et.al.--I leave this thread in your able hands for the week-end. I'm leaving tomorrow morning for a three-day lecture stint in Juneau, AL.

BTW--when I get back I will get the backlog of SF reviews done. (Can you believe I've taught SIX summer school courses this summer?) Next week you can look for SH and 4SQ (and maybe WR but that is going to be a long and complicated one so we'll see). I hope to finish all of season 1 by the party (ones like Heat Wave will be short due to the dearth of SF material). Hope folk are getting as much fun reading these as I am writing them!

LSS

07-13-2000 02:30 PM

NiamhF

Level 1 Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 25 If Maria was two years old when Amy participated in the protest (earlier post from Jamethiel), wouldn't that make the protest around the same time as M/I/M/T emerging from the pods? They emerge as toddlers which would make them 2 or 3 years old. Perhaps the protest or whatever the government was doing in trying to destroy the landmark had something to do with the timing of the "birth" of the aliens. There's a couple of decades between the time of the crash and the emergence of the four from the pods? Do we know for sure what the purpose of this time delay was?

In terms of dreamwaking....when Isabell dreamwalks in the White Room doesn't she say that she has never dreamwalked when someone was awake before? So technically it's not really "dream" walking as much as it is telepathy of some sort. The fact that Max cannot help her as she asks him too may be due to his own inability for coherent conscious thought due to the drugs he was given to slow down the neurotransmitters in his brain.

Niamh

07-13-2000 02:56 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by jenlev nemo: regarding what you said about the silver handprint reversed in the pilot episode... maybe they went through the "looking glass" like alice?

Either that or some fourth dimension.

07-13-2000 03:13 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by NiamhF There's a couple of decades between the time of the crash and the emergence of the four from the pods? Do we know for sure what the purpose of this time delay was?

I think we haven't been told how long our friends were in the pods or why it took so long. One easy guess is that the crash (or subsequent capture of some of the participants) was a major setback to whatever was planned; whoever was left needed time to salvage the situation and try again.

There's not much about the aliens that we "know for sure." It could even turn out that our friends were never in the crash. Max: "All I know is, it wasn't a weather balloon...."

07-13-2000 04:13 PM

clarinetkate

Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 101 quote:

Originally posted by Jamethiel

Another Native American theme... whenever Nasedo would show up (not Harding Nasedo) the music was a distinct clue that the individual we were seeing was Nasedo, about to change forms. The music was very Native American in nature, it was played on wooden flutes. Just another tie in with the whole NAtive American thing... I wonder if this has any significance when you think of the fact that Nasedo apparently had spent some time amongst the Native Americans, and that coupled with all the other things that have been hinted at. I can't help but wonder if somewhere down the road there will be a giant tie in with all that stuff...

I am waiting for grandma Claudia's book on native americans to resurface and for liz to look through it and ::gasp:: discover one of the alien symbols she is so familiar with.

--KATE

07-13-2000 04:32 PM

clarinetkate

Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 101 quote:

Originally posted by LSS quote:

Originally posted by Nemo

Also, shapeshifter, you posted on plumeria's thread that it would be fun if the connections between the picture details and the story were not put there by the writers but by the universe itself, as if these little items had lives of their own.

LSS

Hi, I just wanted to add my little 2 cents too...

This same phenomenon is found in music. (some of this might be greek to you guys, but bear with me!) This past semester I did a lot of schenkerian analysis of classical music, which is linear analysis as opposed to harmonic analysis. And, so out of a whole movement of a sonata we'd find these amazing lines and then the teacher would talk about what an amazing architect Beethoven was, and you just kind of have to go, woah, do you really think he intended that? Or did it just happen that way (cause it seems an awful lot to plan out).

But, it happens in lots of composers... a Bach fugue may do something significant at the exact midpoint of the fugue, which many argue that he planned, which impresses the hell out of me, but ok. And, composers love to put their signature in their music. So, fine that is intended, but, there are some things that we think were not and just happened because of force of nature.

Bela Bartok used this principle of the Golden Mean to write his music. I am a little fuzzy (hey it's summer, give me a break) on exactly what it is (maybe someone remembers better? But I can check my notes..., but I think it is some proportion at which everything in the world goes at supposedly, I am not too sure. But, anyway, he would use this ratio to find the golden mean in his pieces and make something important happen there. This was clearly planned, it was a composition technique he used based on his mathematic/scientific knowledge. BUT, the golden mean is also present in Beethoven's music, where at exactly 63% (or whatever it was) of the way through the piece, something big and important happens. Beethoven clearly did not intend this, it jsut happened naturaly!

So, what I am saying with all this (and wow if you've actually read this far in this post!) is that I can definitely believe that there are things in the show and in life, that were not intended at all or planned but that nevertheless form a real conciousness. THe writers may have no idea they are dropping these signs, it may be completely unintentional, and they may remain meaningless until we (the viewers) pick them out. Once they are picked out you can not deny that they exist. I am always impressed with the people who can pick out the signs (I am awful). I've been lurking on this thread for a while, and will probably go back to that now, but just wanted to say, great thread! You guys are all wonderful thinkers!

--KATE

07-13-2000 06:07 PM

Jamethiel

Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 14 In response to Nemo's post re: "Maria to Liz in "Morning After" - "Go get your uniform on Madonna. The masses are demanding alien-themed greasy food and by God, it's our job to serve them." Clear illustration of my point exactly! (Sorry for awkward posting, as a newbie I haven't yet figured out how to copy a thread and respond in the reply). Writers do love wordplay...and that may all that was initially intended. But I subscribe to the theory that writers are viewers, too. So, as a writer/viewer/writer loop gets set up, the idea of Liz as a form of "madonna" may become over time the "developed" meaning. I think of it as an "artist/bio feedback loop." Scientists often report that the outcome of their experiments change depending on who is "watching." Another example of where something being "watched" can be effected by the viewer!

Additional thoughts on the silver handpring thingy: What if Max got visions from Liz when he intially healed her because he was "taking" her back in time...and needed to maintain a connection to place her back in the "proper" time stream? This would explain why he didn't need a silver hand print to "heal" Kyle...Kyle stayed in the same "time stream." I think a time/space connection also explains Nasedo exploding the gas pumps and Michael's ability to "push back" Hank, Pierce and the FBI Jeep.

The thing I'm not too clear about is the "flashes" the podsters get from inanimate objects and people. Is this true psychometrics...reading of where and what past objects and people? have experienced or are the podsters taking a tiny trip out of normal space? Max and alcohol could be that tiny slip in time that caused Liz's visions in Blind Date and Sexual Healing.

07-13-2000 07:02 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 1. How to copy a post and respond in the reply: go to post in question; see the row icons above it; click on the rightmost one. ("Reply with quote" -- looks like paper plus arrow.) This puts you in the same editor you already know from ordinary posting; the post you wanted to quote is already there. (To quote selectively, delete the parts you don't want. If you overdo it, the Clear Fields button will restore the whole original post.)

Then add your own comments at the end, after the end-of-quote symbol (which is /QUOTE in square brackets).

With cut-and-paste you can put more than one of these quote-and-reply combinations in a single post if you like.

2. If somebody's post has a really neat effect and you want to learn how it's done, this same icon will let you inspect the source text. (Just watch that you don't accidentally post it.)

[Edited by Nemo on 07-14-2000 at 01:34 PM]

07-13-2000 07:41 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 166 Ok-- you all are a lot smarter than me on the "science" of Roswell. But meek little me thought of something while reading this thread. (Gee, I hope this is rather original.) I cannot remember who said what though, so please forgive me.

Max/Michael/Isabel/Tess can all make connections with others. This is an established fact. We also assume that the connection between Max/Liz is very strong. If powers can be gender specific, then why can't Max use his connection with Liz to help access those powers? I think this point is supported by the events in South 285 with Michael and Maria. In Atherton's Isabel asks Michael to try the key again. He does and cannot get a vision. Maria then inches up to Michael and says "try again" and stands very close to him. (maybe she was sending her vibes??) He then is able to have a vision.

I'm not going to argue the for or against this theory, either way, it's a rather fun playland.

If yes-- then yippee!!! At last a "real" reason for this power--connecting with others. Alex/Liz/Maria are more than an emotional support, they become sort of an extension of their podster counterpart. (This could be the catalyst that reunites Max and Liz.)

If no-- then I would think that it would prove that the podsters are more human than they like to admit. My personal opinion here, but I really have a hard time believing the ideas of gender are alien. I believe that this is a very human consequence of the engineer bodies. Gender to me seems so irrelavant when it comes down to survival.

Just a thought, I hope this is a new idea.

Hey-- anyone want to tackle the idea that Max/Isabel/Michael/Tess is just one in series of clones of the same alien essense??? Meaning, their could be more than one M/I/M/T out there... Isn't that what clones are for, increasing your chances.

Love ya Roswellians!

Qfanny :-)

07-13-2000 08:47 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Qfanny :I don't know if anybody mentioned it before. I never thought of it, but now that you mention it, I guess it's possible. I always just figured Michael got the vision on the second try, because he had the support of someone that believed in him.

As for them being just one set of many clones to increase the success probability of the mission : I thought about that after "Destiny", but there were some bothersome things about it:

1. That means that if more than one Max survives, the ultimate successor as leader will somehow have to be chosen.

2. Does he get his choice of "Tesses"? Can they mix and match? What do they do with the leftovers? I don't think Alien Mommy would want the added stress of knowing there were multiples of each of her children, possibly dying, being rejected, and being left behind on an alien planet(Earth). She would want them all back. I think she would have demanded one of each (at a time - they could always try again if they didn't hatch or died).

3. If there were more, it might actually be more dangerous, because of increasing the risk of aliens being discovered by humans.

4. I would really hate it if there were another Max - another soulmate of Liz. To me there is only one MAX. It worries me about the new alien joining the cast. I hope he's not from another podsquad.

[Edited by Palomino on 07-13-2000 at 08:52 PM]

07-13-2000 11:42 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Wow, it's late and my memory is having as much trouble as my puter's that's been laboring in Photoshop all day, but goodness, revelations are here again!

ClarinetKate (love the name BTW): "So, what I am saying with all this (and wow if you've actually read this far in this post!) is that I can definitely believe that there are things in the show and in life, that were not intended at all or planned but that nevertheless form a real conciousness. THe writers may have no idea they are dropping these signs, it may be completely unintentional, and they may remain meaningless until we (the viewers) pick them out. Once they are picked out you can not deny that they exist. "

Well put. It's true in art and to a more acceptable degree in sociology (although here we really get into meta-analysis).

And Jamethiel, too: "So, as a writer/viewer/writer loop gets set up, the idea of Liz as a form of "madonna" may become over time the "developed" meaning. I think of it as an "artist/bio feedback loop." Scientists often report that the outcome of their experiments change depending on who is "watching." Another example of where something being "watched" can be effected by the viewer! "

I really see potential for the Roswell phenomena (the Board, the Show, the Gatherings, the Science Fiction) contributing at least in part to a new collective consciousness. Given Melinda Metz' (author of the Roswell High books) use of collective consciousness in the books, this should not be surprising. I do not pretend that the writing or even the acting is flawless--rather it allows things to flow and happen (like neurology vs. radiology). Or like water colors. Shiri and Jason did not read their lines perfectly in the "I'll have an alien blast....me too" scene; but the dynamics worked.

And back to our current nuts 'n' bolts: Qfanny: Yes! If Tess cannot enhance Max's powers but Liz can, well...as Maria would say, 'It's so obvious.'

And finally, I must tease Palomino again (hope you take it in good fun): Surely you wouldn't mind having enough Maxes running around for all of us!?

07-14-2000 01:54 AM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 166 quote:

Originally posted by Palomino Qfanny :.

As for them being just one set of many clones to increase the success probability of the mission : I thought about that after "Destiny", but there were some bothersome things about it:

1. That means that if more than one Max survives, the ultimate successor as leader will somehow have to be chosen.

3. If there were more, it might actually be more dangerous, because of increasing the risk of aliens being discovered by humans.

4. I would really hate it if there were another Max - another soulmate of Liz. To me there is only one MAX. It worries me about the new alien joining the cast. I hope he's not from another podsquad.

Palomino: I like your points but I wasn't assuming that the "duplicate" sets of Max/Isabel/Michael/Tess would necessarily be on Earth. I was thinking more in the terms of, "What if the home world set up a podster group on each (friendly) planet that supported life?" That would answer your points (3 & 4). As for mixing and matching (2) how do we know that's not what is happening now??? Where did Tess come from anyway? Why did the podsters forget about her--they all seemed pretty surprised at her arrival. As for point (1), I have no answer but can see the home planet overlooking this problem trying to implament what could be the weirdest rescue mission ever. I think that setting up the podsters in the first place took way longer than fifty years. Earth's survival was not a gaurantee--- there could be some ecological disaster which would have made it inhabitable. As for Mommy, if it was me that was enslaved, (assuming slavery is more stressful than worrying about all my children). I wouldn't be putting all my eggs in one basket.

Back to HW: Who ever spotted the metaphor on the slug fest-- good call!

thanks Nemo for helping me edit this post!

[Edited by Qfanny on 07-15-2000 at 05:11 AM]

07-14-2000 09:53 AM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Shapeshifter : Hmmmmm. Now that you mention it, I can think of a few things to do with extra Max's . The term "stud farm" comes to mind.

07-14-2000 01:33 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 Thank you for the praise on the slugfest comment, it's my warped sense of humor that noticed it. Too many pun wars with my brother I'm afraid!

Anyway, this is a bump so I can read this when I get home!

07-14-2000 02:18 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Rock'y, This isn't much more than a bump either, but slugs are also a garden pest for which there is an extermination technique of putting out beer for them to drink & drown in. Scuse the dangling preposition, but reminds me of Blind Date.

07-14-2000 02:55 PM

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there,

palomino: you are killing me, i can't stop laughing!

and thank you again rocklowery: some more on the slugfest!

anybody else wonder what the writers would think if they read this thread (and the other sci-fi ones?)

one thing about imagery, symbolism... being a fan of sychronicity which i bring up too often i wonder about the idea of the symbols we catch becoming synchronicity because they are identified and noticed? does this make any sense? hopefully i'm not just repeating what's been said, sorry if i am, i've lost track a little bit... i blew out too many brain cels laughing!

jenlev

07-14-2000 06:48 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 jenlev, were you seeing the synchronicity as only literary or sociological as well?

[Edited by shapeshifter on 07-14-2000 at 06:52 PM]

07-14-2000 07:05 PM

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there,

shapeshifter: synchronicity perhaps as both a literary and sociological reflection? ... or synchronicity presented as symbols through different branches of the same story? i haven't really thought this out enough. in fact, it's sounding far fetched to me at this point.

maybe it's that synchronicity shows up in different arenas and become noticed on several levels? still not sure, help anyone? perhaps i should move this over to the "representations and interpretations: the brain drain thread"? (if i knew how... )

jenlev

[Edited by jenlev on 07-14-2000 at 07:09 PM]

07-14-2000 08:57 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 quote:

Originally posted by jenlev perhaps i should move this over to the "representations and interpretations: the brain drain thread"? (if i knew how... )

jenlev

O yea, we're on the Sci-Fi thread--I think I'm having synchronous experience.

What the heck, close your eyes, click your heels together three times, and repeat after me: there's no place like Representations and Interpretations

Um, well, given my 28.8 phone lines, you might have to repeat that a few times while I shift the message over.

07-14-2000 10:00 PM

Level 2 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 95 Rosta, I really liked your post, I can always count on learning something new. I'd agree that the writers were thinking about bloodlines, but not in the way you see it.

You wrote - The legend goes that Joseph brought the cup with the blood of Jesus (from the crucifixion) to what would be France, and this is often portrayed as being the the holy grail. But the cup is a symbol of the female and the womb. Some think the cup is a subtext for the royal bloodline, the Sangraal = ? royal/holy blood (??corrupted to holy grail) carried in her womb to France. The legend continues that she suffered continued persecution from the dragon (=Rome) which was slain by the archangel Michael who protected her and her persecuted lineage.

From what we've seen so far, I can't quite tell if Roswell's writers are implying bloodline with a purpose, or bloodline for bloodline's sake? What do I mean by that?

Bloodline with a purpose: The royal/holy blood/needed bloodline is mixed with predetermined other individuals to strengthen certain characteristics or traits of the bloodline to ultimately produce an individual who displays the targeted characteristic. In stories, breeding programs culminate in superior soldiers, people with increased life spans, messianic characters, any trait that is deemed desirable by the managers of the breeding program. Invariably the resultant offspring of the breeding program do not discover the details of the program until about late adolescence/early adulthood.

Bloodline for bloodline's sake is probably the idea we're all historically the most familiar with. Royal/holy blood mustn't be polluted by the blood of the common stock because the royal/holy blood is perceived as superior. There are countless examples of this, where bloodlines were kept pure by 1st cousin marriages, or in extreme cases, sibling marriages.

Foursquare is the episode that dealt the most with the alien breeding mandate. If their "essence" is equivalent to the royal/holy blood, then their human bodies are the vessels/cups for the royal bloodline, and the mating instructions can be interpreted both ways. I initially interpreted it as a "bloodline with a purpose" idea with an implied first cousin mating between the couples' children. Michael and Isabel's son and Max and Tess's daughter producing the culminating point of the bloodline, indicated by the intersection of the lines in the foursquare symbol. It does seem a bit odd to try breed another savior when they can reconstitute their beloved leader/messianic character in human form. However the fact that he did die could be seen as a failure, hence the last ditch effort to mix up the bloodline once again in an effort to produce a successful messiah. Implicit to a "bloodline with a purpose" idea is that Michael and Tess confer specific and necessary traits to the planned offspring.

If the mandate is really to reinforce that the bloodline must continue, then it could explain why Max and Isabel were both sent to earth. If either of them produce progeny, then their bloodline continues. But keeping the bloodline strong over multiple generations is an issue. Every generation there's a dilution in the bloodline unless the line is consistently reinforced by inbreeding. It's as though implicit to bloodlines are breeding programs. But interpreting Foursquare this way, Tess and Michael are not necessary to the bloodline as long as Max and Isabel can produce viable offspring with other people.

You wrote - One can speculate that the reconstitution of the special bloodlines within Max and Liz (an event interrupted back in time or space, perhaps so long ago the cause no longer exists) was/is a cause for a schism. So great is the schism that some/one would kill a 16 year old girl who carries the special bloodline to prevent this.

If Max's ancestors introduced a new or special bloodline on a previous visit to earth, Liz's portion of the bloodline is dependent on how many generations ago the bloodline was introduced. People's idea that Grandma Claudia introduced the alien bloodline via Liz's father into her family is the idea that seems to hold the most water. (My apologies for not giving credit to whoever came up with that idea.) But if Max's ancestors came to earth and affected human evolution, then Liz carrying the special bloodline now is a random but fortuitous event that could only have been prophesied, like you said. But by who? Maybe GC, potentially the aliens, Max? So far he's the only character that has shown any precognitive abiltiy. Now that we know what Tess's implanted visions look like, it really seems to indicate that Max had prescient flashes in TLV.

I can't remember if you're a fan of the changed Liz theory, but making the changed theory fit with the bloodline theory is a bit taxing. The changes that potentially make Liz physically compatible with Max, should changer her bloodline. But that's at the discretion of the writers.

You wrote: Relevance to Roswell. A city, society, kingdom, civilization or world perished. We don't know the nature of the conflict. Religious and/or political? Racial? War fought in "heaven" and on earth for the very souls of the people. Opposition to a movement? A leader (BTW, David = ??Beloved; anyone know for sure, I can't verify??) An unauthorized marriage. A longstanding war that has consumed one or many planets? A rift about matters of science? War of independence of those enslaved? What and who are actually evil, relatively speaking. (Many landowners were convinced it was spiritually and morally justified to have slaves in the US before..even after.. the Emancipation). War over a desparate act by desparate people that led to unethical experiments on the inhabitants of another world? Or were they already the original inhabitants?

You've come up with a whole slew of possibilities. If the enemies with the "evil within" are indeed shapeshifters that seems to indicate a civil war, i.e., Mom and the evil enemies are the same species. I think BehrAll's caste idea is very clever. Nasedo a sterile worker, Mom and MMIT the ones with the bloodlines. If the aliens are anything like eusocial insects, the importance of breeders and their bloodlines becomes even more paramount. The save the planet mandate seemed to smack of a socio-political storyline. If the beloved leader is both a political and religious figure, his martyrdom on the home planet would inspire his followers, while his reconstitution on earth allows for a "resurrection" on the home planet at a later timepoint. None of these storylines are that interesting to me. I did like your idea that Michael completes the grail quest, while Max and Liz remain on earth.

The Foursqaure breeding mandate, and the Destiny save the planet mandate are the same only if the result of the breeding mandate saves the planet. Since Momagram said MMIT had to save the planet, it looks like the breeding program can be thrown out even if it turns out that it's not a hoax.

Sorry for writing a book and for being so way off topic.

07-15-2000 12:45 AM

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 OK, this is not specifically about HW, but I'm not sure where to put it. I also highly doubt it will ever emerge in the story line, but it seems like interesting coincidence.

I've read several "the sky is falling" alerts about increased geomagnetic fluctuations due to solar flares in the next few days. One got my attention because it said that the last sunspot maxima had been in March of 1989. Isn't that when the podsters emerged?

After discussing some of the damage (more in Canada than anywhere in the US), it mentioned that the first warning sign of a solar flare is the appearance of an S-shaped turbulence feature called a sigmoid on the sun's surface. They describe the gasses twirling around each other, and I thought of the distorted 45 rpm adapter-shaped symbol that's turned up on some alien artifacts.

the article is on the Discovery channel site: http://www.discovery.com/news/briefs/20000712/sp_sunflare.html

More about 1989: http://tlc.discovery.com/tlcpages/sunstorms/page2.html

07-15-2000 05:10 AM

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there,

shapeshifter: as i said on the representation thread...after clicking my heels together three times; thank you thank you! some day i will figure out the quote thing.

pixiedude: interesting idea, are you thinking that might have precipitated the podsters emerging early, and without tess?

jenlev

07-15-2000 10:24 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 pixiedude & jenlev: I hope the writers are reading this (or having someone relate it to them) since you're doing their homework. Incorporating solar flare activity as a disruption to pod emergence timing would give credibility to the show's sci-fi of the romance conflict.

07-15-2000 10:27 AM

shapeshifter

Rosta & SF: Along with bloodline significance are strategic alliances and spiritual obligations. For instance, Liz, as granddaughter of GC, could be named Descendent from a Friend of Aliens, or Descendent of The Chosen Earthing Mother. But this would only be okay in my book if Max's romantic attraction to Liz transcends any political agenda for their relationship. Come to think of it, the writers are wise in having the Max/Liz thing flourish in spite of the so-called Destiny rather than because of it. Otherwise they would be robots.

07-15-2000 10:55 AM

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 quote:

Originally posted by jenlev

pixiedude: interesting idea, are you thinking that might have precipitated the podsters emerging early, and without tess?

I did wonder if that could be a trigger for their emergence. I just subtracted back from 89 by 11's, and the maxima during the 40's occurred during 1945, not 1947, so I can't speculate that the solar/geomagnetic interference caused the original crash.

As far as the version of emergence in 4-Square, I'm skeptical since I read somewhere (can't recall if it was a cut-scene thread or the transcript from a tape of the broadcast) that Nacedo Harding was impersonating(?) the 4th pod in the cave when Tess was telling the other 3 about how they had incubated together. As soon as they leave, Harding appears (in the broadcast, I couldn't tell where he came from, so I assumed he was lurking right around the corner from the cave opening). So I tend to believe the version in The Balance instead.

Someone else here talked about bloodlines. The thing that bugs me the most about the 4-Square/Destiny scenario is not the break-up of the human/alien couples (although it would be a radical departure from the underlying pro-integration message of the rest of the season), but the notion that there is this civilization vastly more evolved technologically than we are, yet they still have what I think of as a fairly primitive method of government, rule by hereditary monarchy. I expect that I won't have a lot of sympathy for the "good" side in this conflict. The whole idea of genetically engineered personality and behavior sounds just sounds vaguely fascist to me, and I like anything that indicates rebellion against this genetic destiny assumption (another reason why I like the idea of Tess/Isabel; Tess has been both genetically "programmed" and conditioned from the time Nacedo found her to choose another alien as a mate. But the wild card emerges when she falls for the "wrong" alien from the bloodline-preserving point of view).

07-15-2000 12:56 PM

ROStaFEHRian

Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 Hi SF! I'm so thrilled when you uncloak and come out to play. I loved your analytical response to my post. I have so much to discuss/respond to, but I have a paper and research proposal due Monday. I'm working at home today and tomorrow so I really have to be disciplined.

Just in brief, as background thoughts to continue later (I will be back Mon night or Tues after Toy House which is one of the best eps/scripts, IMHO):

I don't think the two concepts (bloodline with a purpose or for it's own sake) you defined can really be separated. In fact, the concepts are quite dynamic/interrelated. Overall, I think these concepts are more abstract than just blood lineage. Nor do I think this is just about "messiahs" as much as what is REPRESENTED (or embodied in an individual) by messianic legacies/inheritence (spiritual transformation, grand socio-political-traditional changes that may shake the very foundations of a civilization/belief system, etc).

Once the writers set pen to paper and "punched through the membrane" into an alternate time, place, characters, etc, a universe was set into motion that has it's own quantum possibilities, or it's own "inner logic" (for lack of a better phrase). Also the characters take on their own lives regardless what the writers wanted. But the writers tend to swim in the same sea of myths, allegory, archetype, symbols, cliches and storytelling traditions to tell their stories/advance the plot.

Either the writers "listen" and convey the "truthfulness" of this universe, or they do not listen to the characters and, trying to appease the Nielson-monster, create something that does not ring true.

My belief is that it is not so much what I believe or what the writers believe, as much as what the characters (seen, unseen, living, dead, in others times and places, etc) believe or experience.

Holo-mom said beloved "LEADER". This may imply royal/monarch, sacred, dictatorship, but not explicitly. MORE likely "leader" may imply something more democratic or a democratic ideal (ie, it is just as likely he was duly elected or appointed; Camelot; Avallon, etc).

This would fit with some of the ROSWELL themes I sense: democracy- at least in principle (ANYONE of ANY station can achieve the spiritual "grail" without the artificial external limitations of religious/political/social dogma, political machinations, wealth, genes, etc), respect for individual life, love and compassion, the freedom to live one's life free of oppression/slavery/dogma of TPTB, etc.

What right did Holo-mom's people (if this is to be believed, and I don't particularly believe it; for one, because Tess met Mrs. Evans and Holo-mom kinda resembles Mrs. Evans, and two it is just too lame, etc) have to take genetic material and/or "create" life and presume for them a mandate to do anything other than live their own lives. JENLEV raised a powerful and poignant concept that underlies ROSWELL and that is the dance with mortality. If Max represents an organizing force or re-establishment of a civilization that is anathema to one group, then he has to die/be exiled, etc. If Liz fulfils someones' prophecy of the one (on another world) to mate with Max, then she (and their anticipated offspring) is dangerous.

I didn't want to suggest there is single theory as much as I suggest a more "quantum "approach to storytelling. There are many possibilities (the wave function) and when one is selected, all the other probabilities collapse (particle function). The same with the writers.

I love the changed Liz theory (and I could make it fit quite nicely). And there are other possibilities too.

I have said many times that there is a defining principle about what is alien or not. For all we know, these podsters were created by the Advanced Weapons and Research Assoc. using the ova of women from Roswell and sandwiched a truth between the lies of an alien crash and the communist hysperia of the time. Perhaps there was an alien crash from which nothing remained but alien genetic material used to create the podsters.

In one of my first posts I suggested perhaps M/M/I's (and ?Holo-mom) people came here (to earth) eons ago, one step in a galactic diaspora set in motion so far back in time even this advanced society (if it is real) can't conceive of it's origins. They came to earth, stayed...yadayada..or they came, left (intentionally or unintentionally leaving something behind)- returned again. An aside. I'm reminded of the ?Krell from Forbidden Planet who, highly advanced themselves, co-opted the alien machinery of a society even more advanced and alien than even they could conceive of.

Or their ancesters evolved here from the same primordial muck and chemicals of life left by space dust (ie, BIOGENESIS). The bottom line would be , we are all related. Racial and holy wars or tensions, boundaries, and concerns about genetics, bloodlines, alien v. human are destructive. "I am what I am.."

Did I say this would be brief...? Anyway, I love your postand want to delve into the concepts and themes you raised and storytelling/mythology. I'm still thinking about AMX's post on the SFofLN thread.

I'm not sure if I made any sense or misunderstood and just created a muddle. I may add before Mon if I have time.

Rosta

[Edited by ROStaFEHRian on 07-15-2000 at 01:34 PM]

07-15-2000 05:40 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 "Destruction of the home planet appears to be described in SH and foreshadowed in this episode (HW)." Let me try to show what I meant. The clues (that I know of) start very early, with small but repeated hints that M/M/I are more accustomed to cold, less comfortable with heat, than the humans.

Monsters Isabel feels hot in Maria's car: "Doesn't this thing have air conditioning?"

285 South In the jeep as night falls (cut scene): Max sees Liz is cold, and wants to put up the top; but when he pretends it's for himself, Isabel objects "You're never cold." Or, entering the motel room: Michael says, "At least it's warm", but Maria says "I'm cold... I just want to go home."

River Dog When Isabel reminds Max of the beach vacation long ago, he replies "You had sunstroke all of August...."

Balance (Michael's trouble with the sweat may count here, but not necessarily, because there may have been other causes.)

Toy House Isabel recalls that, on adoption day, her mother was wearing something yellow "like the sun." To most of us, the sun seems unremarkable, being the only one we've ever known. But the sun impresses Isabel enough to become part of her earliest memories on earth. As if somehow, deep down, she was accustomed to a sun that was not so yellow and bright. A red sun.

The Convention At the museum (as Michael is telling Max about mud), the ceiling light looks like a solar-system model with a red sun. If the surrounding ring represents a planet's orbit, the red sun has grown large, on its way to engulfing the planet, as in the well-known final phase of expansion into a red giant.

Heat Wave "Heat expands, melts, makes things boil, sets things on fire...."

So much for foreshadowing. The scene that appears to show the destruction of the home planet is in the visions Liz sees in SH. (An analysis of this appeared on the first SF thread.) Two visions come in quick succession, but they are different: The first looks like "warp-speed" travel through a galaxy of stars streaking by. The next looks like an explosion, with debris flung outward but curving downward as if under the influence of gravity. (This feel of downward acceleration instead of straight-ahead motion is a major difference between the two visions.) The context suggests that this was the home planet. (If it was someplace else of less significance to the story, why the elaborate foreshadowing?)

Yes, I know that in the textbook universe the end wouldn't be that abrupt and explosive, but this is showbiz.

I don't recognize any clues to suggest how many other inhabitants might have escaped. (Symbolism of the berries in the bowl? That bowl was exceptionally rounded underneath, as if meant to symbolize a planet.) So maybe AlienMom got away to somewhere else? Something to find out about in future seasons, I hope.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-15-2000 at 06:27 PM]

07-15-2000 06:52 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1026 Nemo you have uncovered so much on that post. I remember all those things but really could not put them together in any coherant way. So if the planet is gone........?

07-15-2000 09:19 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 quoted from Nemo I don't recognize any clues to suggest how many other inhabitants might have escaped. (Symbolism of the berries in the bowl? That bowl was exceptionally rounded underneath, as if meant to symbolize a planet.) So maybe AlienMom got away to somewhere else? Something to find out about in future seasons, I hope.

Could the falling berries signify the souls lost when the planet exploded?

[Edited by rocklowery on 07-15-2000 at 09:26 PM]

07-15-2000 09:51 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 Rocklowery,

I suppose so. Don't know what else to say, it seems awfully sad.

About the slugs, I liked your joke.

07-15-2000 10:11 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 What else can we make of those slugs?

When I first saw them I laughed because it seemed like such an odd experiment to be attempting. Makes you wonder who thought of it, Liz or the teacher? No one else was working on it. (And so unlikely to succeed, wouldn't you think? A creature being pushed around by something a hundred times its size is bound to have other priorities besides mating, and you would think Liz is smart enough to figure that out. But she tries it anyway. It was funny to see Liz the Control Person encountering Gumperson's Law of Biology: "Under carefully controlled conditions, organisms behave as they d*** well please.") Maybe the writers gave it to us just for the fun of trying to interpret it.

I think this failed attempt symbolizes that Tess will not get anywhere with Max. And the relative formlessness of the slugs hint that she might be a shapeshifter.

Or maybe just that there are two shapeshifters in the story somewhere.

07-15-2000 10:29 PM

Level 2 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 95 Rosta, The Toy House is one of my favorite eps too.

I agree that the two bloodline concepts are interrelated, and that I treated them literally (which was personally helpful). IMO if you treat the bloodline idea more abstractly the emphasis becomes more sociopolitical and inheritance becomes the issue, which seems pretty in line with what you�re saying.

quote:

Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian

Nor do I think this is just about "messiahs" as much as what is REPRESENTED (or embodied in an individual) by messianic legacies/inheritence (spiritual transformation, grand socio-political-traditional changes that may shake the very foundations of a civilization/belief system, etc).

I�d have to say you�ve written a good working definition of what a messiah is, but you have to add deliverer, he delivers one group from another. I know we�re both on the same page, but I�ll state again that neither of us is talking about a messiah in the Judeo/Christian context. I�m leaning more towards a warrior leader in a "holy?" war. Whether we will actually see Max take on this role is debatable, but up to this point his character has implied messianic traits. For all we know these are residual traits from his previous life that predispose him towards ?? in this life.

quote:

Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian

I think the knights would agree, the table might have been round, but Arthur sat on the big chair. Yeah, yeah I know, more democratic than previously, but it still sucked to be a peasant.

I agree we can�t accurately interpret "Leader," but, if this is the one and only "essence" of the beloved leader, he is something more than your run of the mill brilliant leader, great military strategist, superb mediator.... He�s definitely not one of the plebs, he�s at least beloved by someone, and they went to an awful lot of trouble to reincarnate him and put him on another planet. At some level he's special.

quote:

Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian

What right did Holo-mom's people have to take genetic material and/or "create" life and presume for them a mandate to do anything other than live their own lives.

quote:

Originally posted by pixiedude

... the notion that there is this civilization vastly more evolved technologically than we are, yet they still have what I think of as a fairly primitive method of government, rule by hereditary monarchy.... The whole idea of genetically engineered personality and behavior sounds just sounds vaguely fascist to me, and I like anything that indicates rebellion against this genetic destiny assumption...

Unless the four harvested essences consented to this project prior to their demise, the whole plan is UNETHICAL which has me agreeing with you pixiedude, I�m currently not too impressed with the people that hatched the plan. And even though I agree with you Rosta that democracy-in-principle has been a theme, it�s one that the humans on the show have expounded. I have to agree with pixiedude again that the alien mandates do seem socio-politically anachronistic. One of the biggest chuckles I got off these threads post destiny was MEPs comment that the aliens must be genetic determinists.

I liked your quantum approach to story telling. I hope the writers are as industrious in exploring all the possibilities as the boards have been, and that they pick one of the better options for next season.

Nemo and GraceKel, I forgotten who originally posted this comment, but they said that it�s almost like there were two Roswell�s this season. The first 16 eps with the home planet destroyed, and the last 6 eps with the mandates.

07-15-2000 10:44 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 About Tess and her "sad fate" as I called it,

I think there are a lot of hints that Tess is not the original fourth podster, but a substitute. She may be worse than I think, but my impression is that at present she doesn't know this yet (just as she apparently didn't know that Nasedo had been killing people until Max told her). So her sad fate is to fail in the only ambition she seems to have, and to find out that her existence is based on someone's attempted deception.

I will try to write up more of those hints later. For now, let me just mention the one that shows up in this episode: the power boxes marked Main and Sub. I think Liz = Main and Tess = Sub. This fits with the observation (by GraceKel, I think) of a sign behind Tess in MTTM (when she gets out of the jeep after Max says he has a lot to think about and she replies "I'll be here for you"). The sign says NO SUB.... Now this could be construed as a warning not to accept Nasedo as a substitute for Max. But at that point, we already know about that deception. So I think the sign applies to Tess.

07-15-2000 11:08 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by SF [someone] said that it�s almost like there were two Roswell�s this season. The first 16 eps with the home planet destroyed, and the last 6 eps with the mandates.

At first I wondered if there was a disconnect, but on rewatching the first few episodes I saw elaborate foreshadowing of most of the Destiny revelations. (So I think it's all the same story; the biggest change was the pace.) The one way I can see to reconcile the save-the-planet mandate with the destroyed home planet is to suppose that the Momogram is not a current communication but an old recording that has been partly "overtaken by events." I imagine this is a common view, isn't it? As for the mating mandates, if such are implied, that may be Tess bending things; we know she can.

The one thing about the Momogram scene that seemed current instead of a playback was the suggestion that the orbs were somehow taking attendance? "If you are getting this message you must all be OK" or something like that. So if Tess is a fake, but the orbs sense "all present" it looks like they may be recognizing Liz as the rightful fourth person.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-15-2000 at 11:42 PM]

07-16-2000 01:42 AM

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 You guys are much more observant than I am. But there's one thing I still don't know about this ep. Has anyone with a vcr figured out what Micheal's shirt says?

07-16-2000 06:51 AM

ROStaFEHRian

Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 SF-

Again, I enjoyed your post tremendously. I hope to continue this discussion soon. I think it is very important.

I very much think we are on the same page. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I most certainly was thinking HIGHLY UNETHICAL when I made the comment about what right did Holo-moms people do what they did...etc (if the message is to be believed at all) so I was also agreeing with PIXIEDUDE and, indeed, I have posted before about the questionable ethics of Max people if that Holo-gram is true.

Before I go (I have to run) NEMO, great post above. I recall having some feelings about just what you were discussing and being fascinated by Iz's comment about the yellow dress and I had completely forgotten about this. Thank you, thank you . It is very important.

I wanted to ask you about the slide with the numbers that flash on Pierce's face when he is tied to the chair in DESTINY. You can see it long enough to pause on it just after Pierce takes the gun from Kyle. But my freeze fram is blurred. I can make out, since it is in large type, G .44 , and below that 246 0r 264??. I recall having seen this on an astronomy site but I could not find it again. I know I have a download somewhere but maybe I threw it out. Do you recognize this? does it have to do with a spectral class or gravity or AU's? I know "44" had something to do with Alpha Centauri, but I couldn't remember 44 from .44 so I looked. Alpha Centauri ?B I think is .44 spectral class, but it is not G class star,it is K, but it is reddish colored. Do you have any ideas??

Strawberries are a symbol of virginity, but I suppose there are other meanings cross-culturally.

Rosta

[Edited by ROStaFEHRian on 07-16-2000 at 06:54 AM]

07-16-2000 08:32 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Rosta & SF: on the ethics of the cloning: I assumed (and I tend to asssume too much) that either a) the essences were willingly (as a last resort against annihilation) put into human form using synthetic DNA based on intergalactic microscopic studies (i.e. no contact) or b) part of an evil or at least unethical plot (which might fit with Nasedo/Harding's personna).

Nemo, on the pace of the program: Very observant! In fact, I think if we plotted plot development on a curve it would be pretty smooth--like the upward slope of a roller coaster with no top in sight. I was taken aback when the sci-fi was overtaken by the break-neck pace of the romance early on--again, probably for Lord Neilson.

Rosta, Strawberries a symbol of virginity? Wow, I wonder if the writers had any idea. Where is that from? Another example of symbols having a life of their own in which the audience participates.

07-16-2000 09:42 AM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote:

Originally posted by jenlev nemo: regarding what you said about the silver handprint reversed in the pilot episode... maybe they went through the "looking glass" like alice?

Originally posted by Nemo Either that or some fourth dimension.

Or maybe (Tess's dad), the killer klown from outer space (M2M), is left-handed?

I thought there was something sinister about him!

07-16-2000 09:54 AM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote:

Originally posted by Nemo 2. If somebody's post has a really neat effect and you want to learn how it's done, this same icon will let you inspect the source text. (Just watch that you don't accidentally post it.)

[Edited by Reggie on 07-16-2000 at 09:58 AM]

07-16-2000 10:06 AM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote:

Originally posted by Palomino Shapeshifter : Hmmmmm. Now that you mention it, I can think of a few things to do with extra Max's . The term "stud farm" comes to mind.

Let me know if there's a leftover Isabel! ROTFL

07-16-2000 10:48 AM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote:

Originally posted by pixiedude As far as the version of emergence in 4-Square, I'm skeptical since I read somewhere (can't recall if it was a cut-scene thread or the transcript from a tape of the broadcast) that Nacedo Harding was impersonating(?) the 4th pod in the cave when Tess was telling the other 3 about how they had incubated together. As soon as they leave, Harding appears (in the broadcast, I couldn't tell where he came from, so I assumed he was lurking right around the corner from the cave opening). So I tend to believe the version in The Balance instead.

From what I saw, he was impersonating a portion of the rock wall. On Star Trek: Deep Space 9, the shapeshifter "Odo" is often doing something like that, when he needs to spy on someone. And, Point: there is no flash, morph, etc. when he appears. Hey, maybe he can also be invisible?

07-16-2000 11:03 AM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote:

Originally posted by Reggie quote:

BTW, can anyone tell me why some of my post is in a different typeface? A serif one, rather than the usual sans serif one. Thanks.

07-16-2000 01:01 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 Reggie, when that happened to me, it turned out that a B-for-Bold tag (B in square brackets) was missing at the start of a quoted section. Thus, at the end of that section, the end-Bold tag (/B) was a surprise to the server, triggering that unusual font.

07-16-2000 01:08 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian Strawberries are a symbol of virginity....

Didn't Max pick one up but give it back to Liz?

No, I looked it up: Max didn't pick it up, Maria handed it to him. But he did give it back to Liz.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-16-2000 at 10:48 PM]

07-16-2000 01:24 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 Rosta, I got your last question but can't respond for awhile; there are some things I feel like I need to finish writing, or burst. You know the feeling? Also, my wife has the VCR. (Unlike me, she watches other things besides Roswell. Can you imagine? Since Max healed Liz, there's been no other story that could hold my interest -- not even close.)

A quick answer to your earlier query: Yes, "David" = "beloved" -- or so my mother told me.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-16-2000 at 01:34 PM]

07-16-2000 02:57 PM

ROStaFEHRian

Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 Addendum to my response to SF: SF wrote: I'd have to say you've written a good working definition of what a messiah is, butyou have to add deliverer, he delivers one group from another.

You are so right. The words Savior/deliverer were definitely buzzing in my head, I just forgot to include them.

SHAPESHIFTER: I mentioned strawberries in my post from a few days ago, likely on page 1 or 2. Refer for the context and other associated symbols. For you, and anyone else interested, go to the websites below. I have credible art history, mythology and symbolism reference texts but I just don't have time to look for them in my storage boxes.

I found these sites after a quick net search. If anyone is interested go to art history or other references texts and find additional information. I'd be interested. For those who don't have time to visit these sites, some exerpts are copied below (I don't know if this is ok or not; if not, admins can delete). Disclaimer: I do not know the authors of the sites, their affiliations, validity of information, nor endorse anything on these sites.

http://www.nal.usda.gov/pgdic/Strawberry/book/boktwo.htm

G.M. Darrow, The Strawberry: History, Breeding and Physiology 2 The Strawberry in Religious Paintings of the 1400's

(quote from websites) So we come to these touching paintings of the School of Cologne: "The Madonna of the Roses," "The Garden of Paradise," and the "Madonna among the Strawberries." The Madonna is always a young girl seated in a closed garden (to indicate her virginity),...

In her stimulating book on the symbolism in the pictures of the Middle Ages (Symbol-Fibel). Klementine Lippfert guides us into the meaning which flowers and plants as well as animals, colors and objects had for the people of that time. Elizabeth Haight, in her book, Symbolism of the Great Masters (1913), writes "the strawberry stands apart from all other symbolical fruits. It is found in Italian, Flemish and German art and also in English miniatures. As a symbol it is not only widespread but of comparatively early origin . . . . It is the symbol of perfect righteousness." There is ample evidence that medieval art is permeated with symbolism and that every object had its own particular significance.

...With so many qualities attributed to it, it need not surprise us that we repeatedly encounter the strawberry, as entire plants in the foreground of a picture, or as individual berries and blossoms or garlands forming the border of a miniature. As far as we have seen, they occur most frequently in the presentations of the Madonna and of the Christ.

...Around the tomb from which the Christ is rising, the strawberry and a variety of other plants are growing, the symbol of continuous life. (end quotes)

check this site also (scroll down to the flower and fruit list, but also look at the illuminated painting above):

http://www.mgardens.org/JS-FSOMOEAOH-MG.html

SHAPESHIFTER wrote (7/15/00): pixiedude & jenlev: I hope the writers are reading this (or having someone relate it to them) since you're doing their homework. Incorporating solar flare activity as a disruption to pod emergence timing would give credibility to the show's sci-fi of the romance conflict.

I also like that idea. But while it may not fit with the cyclic solar flare activity, perhaps there might have been some other electromagnetic event or planetary, astronomical event. On X-Files boards a while back, some discussions were about solar flare activity; planetary alignment; 5/5/2000 (can't recall meaning of this date), the ancient Mayan calender (date of 2012 and the supposed date of invasion approximately the same time or the 6th extinction), galactic cosmic radiation, you name it. I also liked the idea someone had relating Amy De Luca (and others) demonstrating at a reservation site and local disturbance. I have no idea of the timelines here.

I do think the Max/Liz relationship is supposed to transcend externally imposed mandates/agendas. I think GC, her work and her book will be significant, and Liz as her granddaughter, as her possible ties to the alien and/or supernatural worlds. I do hope the writers plan to revisit this.

Look forward to hearing from you NEMO.

Rosta

07-16-2000 04:46 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Rosta, Thanks for the sources. I will look for more when I get back in town tomorrow night. On the http://www.mgardens.org/JS-FSOMOEAOH-MG.html link you posted I also found: "The strawberry, continuing in flower while in fruit, is thus a symbol of Mary's Perpetual Virginity both on earth and in heaven..." I will post this over on BerhAll's Representations thread and the Liz Mythology thread. We will no doubt have lots of fun with it.

As much as I too insist that a real romance must not be fore-ordained, the writers do have to work with the past they have created in which Max has recognized Liz as his chosen since the third grade.

And LSS, when you get back, do not dispair that we are all together OT--after all, Heat Wave was about the flowering of romance.

07-16-2000 06:56 PM

jenlev

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there,

rosafehrian & shapeshifter: as always your posts inform wonderfully! thanks! i'm wondering if it's too much of a stretch to interpret the handing back of the 'famed' strawberry as a representation of a choice being given to liz? might that fit with a move away from the issue of bloodlines and destiny ruling the day? not sure, it's a half baked thought at this time.

jenlev

[Edited by jenlev on 07-16-2000 at 07:01 PM]

07-16-2000 08:09 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter ... a real romance must not be fore-ordained....

But suppose: 1. A former Max and someone he loved (though I think it is hinted that they died before the wedding),

2. Max, a new person, but having much in common with former Max because someone deliberately brought this about,

3. Liz, having much in common with former Max's love, possibly also due to intentional influences (at least partly)

4. Because of 2 and 3, Max feels attracted to Liz at first sight and chooses to love her ever after,

Can that be a satisfyingly "real" romance, or is that still too fore-ordained?

07-16-2000 08:22 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 I feel as if I just stumbled into an Atherton's-basement of clues, and I don't know how to present them except "piece by piece." I wanted to list why I think Tess is a fake and Harding/Nasedo a probable enemy; also to check for hints of time travel. But I think I need to cover this first. If it seems a formless mass, blame it on too much thinking about those slugs. Here goes:

285 South + RD When I told my wife this trip looks like a re-enactment of AlienMom's story, a play-within-the-play like some by Shakespeare, she replied: or James Joyce. That floored me: the book Michael quoted in this very episode was Ulysses. So I searched for clues by way of likely-looking parallel stories. (Has this been covered already?)

Apparently Atherton's domed house = Earth. (Some of this has been posted before: alien reconstitution, motel name -- Sultan's HideAway, pursuit by parties with various motives....) An accident causes a delay. The pentagon skylight may suggest bad aliens already established on Earth. (As if AlienMom's action was detected, but the bad guys don't know the exact space/time target. So they search, or set detectors. Doesn't that symbol look a little like a spider web?) Hidden room = pod chamber. (Others have commented how much Liz probing the paper-covered exit resembled M/M/I emerging from their pods.) This room, not already ransacked, apparently hasn't been found yet. The sheriff may represent a guardian. He is not there for the podsters when they emerge because he was disabled by an enemy. But he recovers sooner than the enemy realizes. The enemy discovers the chamber only after the podsters are gone. Since then, maybe there's a "good Nasedo" and a "bad Nasedo" doing the same kind of dance around each other as Valenti and Topolsky did.

On return, the cover story about going away to study matches AlienMom's instructions.

Hints of time travel?: (1) Texas is in a different time zone than New Mexico. Marathon is a name from ancient times: a battleground. (2) The hidden-room calendar is from a transportation company (Union Pacific), and appears to be 5 years earlier than Atherton's death. (Hard to see, but it's a 30-day month in the 1950's with a long name and starting on a Friday, inconsistent with the expected 11/59 but fits 11/54. Thanks, GraceKel.) As if the pod chamber is set in a different time. (3) Max to Mom on return: "We lost track of the time."

Blood Brothers Max's unconsciousness and recovery seem symbolic of the death of former Max and the emergence of present Max. The blood samples with names/dates suggest stored "essences." Surreptitiously, a substitution is made...although I don't think it was Max in that case.

Max's recovery is said to be surprisingly prompt. Palomino and others have pointed out that (on the face of it) this is a stretch; recovery times can vary greatly and the degree of injury was poorly known. I suspect the "surprising recovery" was invented to serve this symbolic story.

The date on Max's sample matches the death of Julius Caesar (as noted before), who was killed by someone he trusted. Another match is Harding's first name, Ed (right away he called attention to this: "call me Ed") with Michael's humorous name for the horse that precipitated the trouble: "I hear you saved Mr. Ed." In the last episode our friends did "save Mr. Ed." Given the other instances where the writers have used names to tell part of the story, this name coincidence seems a clue that Harding is not to be trusted; he may be implicated in former Max's death.

07-16-2000 09:43 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 Here's another batch of puzzle pieces that seem to fit a pattern.

In The Convention, notice the abstract symbol on the sheriff's building, left of the doors. A sun symbol (State of New Mexico), center dot + rays in four directions. There's a counterpart to this on the museum (Civil Defense, or radioactivity symbol?): similar placement, same center dot, but around it are only three sectors.

The series is full of these fours and threes. One interpretation of the symbolic message is: 4 original podsters. One dies by accident or murder, 3 remain: M/M/I. One more joins in, restoring 4, but the new one is somehow of a different kind, and there are indications that one is Tess. This is partly why I think she's not the original fourth, but a fake. (Tepp and others said so long ago, for different reasons. So here's more.)

Monsters (near the end): School hallway has a row of 4 portraits, doubtless of former leaders. Scene opens with Michael's head almost inside one of the frames. (It's the second one from the right. Second in command?) He walks to where he is covering up the leftmost one; only 3 remain visible.

285 South 3 missing children on "Have you seen us?" poster in sheriff's office.

Motel room 3.

River Dog A small foreshadowing of Tess?: As M/M/I plan to comb the new clues, 3 times we hear the words "just the 3 of us." That excludes Maria. Michael says: "She pushed it...She sends out these vibes...."

(posted earlier) Tree-like figure in tapestry (Liz's place, as M/M/I confer after the burglary) has leaves in 4 oval bunches (same oval shape as pods on the pod diagram): stems of 3 of them tie together closely, the connection to the 4th one is much more distant.

Heat Wave

Remember Tess's 4-square symbol? Behind Jim and Amy in the restaurant, the wall decoration seems to be chanting: 3 squares, 3 squares.... (Later, in ID, Amy reminds Jim of the 3-strikes law.)

In the old factory, lots of 3's on doors and electrical gear.

The Convention, again. Here it reaches a crescendo.

The biggest thing on the flyers for the convention is that it runs 3 days.

3 dolls on the counter of Max's info booth.

Here's a sequence to watch closely:

Purple-clad "clone girls": 4. Purple balloons on a string in the cafe: 4 at first; later 3. Do you think these are supposed to symbolize aliens? In case we don't get it just by the color, the storytellers have some UFO expert tell of "smooth ovoid EBE's." (Extraterrestrial Biological Entities?)

Note what happens in between: Xenoplox (whose name means "alien plot") talks about, well, an alien plot. Then we see someone get shot (Liz, in flashback, triggered by sight of Larry and Jen). This looks like another symbolic re-enactment. It persuades me that one podster was killed (or died by accident). And suggests she may have been similar to Liz.

After that the stack of purple balloons has only 3. Sometimes we see one more, but it's separate, and oriented differently.

More 4's and 3's: Isabel's house as Alex visits: First, 4 plant pots on windowsill. Later a 3-fold ceiling lamp.

Rows of pictures in museum wall exhibit (as Michael asks Max about "the real guys"): Top row: 4. next row: 3. next row (barely visible) back to 4.

Tess imitation coming up: In the cafe, 3 women commiserate about men; then Jen joins in, making 4. (The parallel to Tess's later entrance is striking: Jen pops up suddenly, and the first thing she does is to interrupt a woman who was talking with Alex. It turns out that she and a male companion are from out of town and have been much on the move, hunting for something. They have a fixation which proves troublesome for Max and Liz.)

Crazy 3 nuns seen clearly at the cafe, one more partly visible on left.

TLV At the cafe (while M/M/I confer about the camera found at Michael's) there are 3 UFO-shaped ceiling lamps in a straight line and 1 more that is out of line. (Tess isn't straight with them?)

White Room Harding says he now has 4 to protect. Michael's shirt says 3. (Thanks to jen_a4 on plumeria's thread for this one.)

The one I like best of all is in the Pilot: When Max answers Liz's questions they are in the art room; there are lots of faces on the wall behind Liz. When Max tells her M/I are also aliens, the closeup of her reaction show 3 faces behind her. Liz completes the 4.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-16-2000 at 11:12 PM]

07-16-2000 09:45 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 Let us hope for fair skies for LSS so she can get back from Alaska in 3 days instead of 4.

07-16-2000 10:26 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 Rosta, about the 5/5/2000 date: there was a rare alignment of the planets that day. Mention of planetary alignments on Roswell built up to that week's episode. I hope it will now subside.

Similarly, other story elements seemed to relate in turn to Christmas, Good Friday, Easter, and Valentine's Day.

07-16-2000 11:18 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 SF, I was glad to see you again. It was you who got me started studying the scenery. That's how I found that it often has a story to tell, as in those Graham Oakley books.

07-17-2000 12:11 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by pixiedude ...it was interesting to look at some of the minor elements and try to figure out if they are signal or noise: ... 2)Liz says something about, at least nothing exploded, when she and Max are about to kiss in the soap factory parking lot. But very shortly before, the extra amps Octavio and his buds wired in overloaded the circuitry and started the electrical fire (it must have started after they walked outside; Kyle is talking to them when the fire truck pulls up) Think there's some connection to all that podster lust in one place?

This fits with something LSS said last week about possible biological-compatibility problems between the podsters and humans:

I got a closer look at that bio. wall chart. At first glance, it seemed like just a human outline, bisected at the lateral midline, looking symbolic of the hybrid idea. But on a closer look, it's a (rather stylized) sketch of the nervous system: just the brain and spinal nerve trunk. The combination of this plus the electrical-overload images seems to suggest the kind of problem LSS mentioned.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-17-2000 at 12:25 PM]

07-17-2000 03:36 PM

Venus~

Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 42 I'm not sure about the Sci-fi envolved during the heat wave, but it sure mad us shippers happy. Well all of us except stargazers that is.

:B2:

=0) Venus~

07-17-2000 04:48 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 229 quote:

quote: Originally posted by pixiedude 2)Liz says something about, at least nothing exploded, when she and Max are about to kiss in the soap factory parking lot. But very shortly before, the extra amps Octavio and his buds wired in overloaded the circuitry and started the electrical fire

I believe Liz turns to Max and as they are about to kiss says: Let's hope nothing explodes. I don't know if it makes much difference but thought I'd point this out in case anyone were confused.

07-17-2000 05:19 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 rocklowery, thanks for the clarification. That makes it more understandable.

07-17-2000 08:53 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Nemo, I like this idea: quote:

Originally posted by Nemo ...The sheriff may represent a guardian. He is not there for the podsters when they emerge because he was disabled by an enemy. But he recovers sooner than the enemy realizes. The enemy discovers the chamber only after the podsters are gone. Since then, maybe there's a "good Nasedo" and a "bad Nasedo" doing the same kind of dance around each other as Valenti and Topolsky did.

...but I think most of the symbology is the inadvertant result of the stage crew's, director's , et al focus on the story--still relevant though. And it's great that your wife follows your line of thinking; I'm afraid i checked out somewhere in the 3's & 4's. But my mind takes its own detours. For example, re:quote:

Makes me wonder if Max's essence is a substitute after all, and that's why he chose Liz.

[Edited by shapeshifter on 07-17-2000 at 10:55 PM]

07-17-2000 09:01 PM

Level 2 Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 95 Rosta, Nemo, Shapeshifter, I�ve been enjoying the conversation, but I�m going to have to go back to lurk mode and then gone mode. Thanks to y�all the boards are almost as much entertainment as the shows. Up �til now, I just thought those strawberries were strawberries. The only thing I noticed was that they�re quintessentially sensual fruit.

quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter Rosta & SF: on the ethics of the cloning: I assumed (and I tend to asssume too much) that either a) the essences were willingly (as a last resort against annihilation) put into human form using synthetic DNA based on intergalactic microscopic studies (i.e. no contact) or b) part of an evil or at least unethical plot (which might fit with Nasedo/Harding's personna).

Shapeshifter, I think your assumption in (a) could turn out to be true. Assuming Max has a similar personality to the Beloved Leader, then it seems unlikely that his people are unethical. I found the last part of (a) really interesting. Is your idea that they generated their synthetic human DNA from traces of DNA they found on meteors and asteroids? And by no contact, are you suggesting no contact with humans? If I�m interpreting your idea correctly, then the trio/quartet were in their pods prior to their arrival on earth, and their alien species did not have a good idea of what humans are like. That leaves the way open for lot of good speculation.

Reggie and pixiedude, LSS had a novel idea about Ed and the rock wall in the pod chamber. She suggested that he teleported into the chamber from somewhere else. Considering that he told Tess to go to the pod chamber if there was trouble, he might have a way to get there quickly. We haven�t seen anything since to confirm or refute the teleportation idea.

Reggie, I also thought Ed was pulling an Odo, but they�ve since made it really clear that he can�t change his alien bone structure, so he�s either chameleon-like and can match his background (which we should have seen), or he can make himself transparent (like you said), or he teleported into the chamber right when he appears.

Nemo, you never cease to amaze me with everything you find. I�m very heartened to hear that the signs you�ve discovered point to Tess being an imposter, and that you found foreshadowings of Destiny�s mandate in some of the early episodes. I�d like to believe that the writers actually had a plan. They knew they had 22 eps up front, so they should have planned their whole season, even if it was just a rough outline. And the mad rush at the end was for the ratings.

I do remember our conversation about the visions in SH, and I still agree with all the imagery you�ve found to indicate that their home world was engulfed by a red giant. I�m not sure if it was this thread or the leaving normal thread, but I remember you and LSS having a conversation about the possibilities of a time travel story. If they see the destroyed planet as they leave, then someone might have had to go back in time to harvest the essences, i.e., prior to planet destruction. Or the essences are really old, and they�ve been in someone�s possession a long time. Or the planet fragmented shortly after the beloved leader died, and everything happened in real time. Of course destiny itself points to the trio/quartet having to go back in time to save their enslaved people. Part of me thinks that their enslaved people are on a planet they fled to after the destruction of their home planet. But that makes me wonder why they remember the exodus from their original planet. Enough side tracking, I just wanted to let you know that even though I don�t have all that much time to post, I always try to catch you posts when I lurk. I actually saw the alien holding the baby by the Crashdown door in TLV a couple of weeks ago. I would never have seen that if you hadn�t pointed it out.

Back to lurkerdom SF

07-17-2000 10:49 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Lurking SF, Re: quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter ...the essences were ... put into human form using synthetic DNA based on intergalactic microscopic studies (i.e. no contact...

Thank you for requesting clarification (I tend to wrongly assume people are thinking as I do). I was thinking of the use of telescopes or radioscopes or radar (it's been a while since I studied any astronomy) that would give the aliens a wealth of data about molecular structures (which they would understand more fully than we do anyway). It would be like painting a picture of a mountain that you could only see, except they literally replicated the DNA with their own elements.

And, re:quote:

SF wrote: ...Assuming Max has a similar personality to the Beloved Leader, then it seems unlikely that his people are unethical

Unless someone switched the essence of a Ruthless Ruler for a Mild Mannered Max.

On to Toy House Sci Fi!

[Edited by shapeshifter on 07-18-2000 at 10:10 PM]

07-18-2000 08:46 PM

ROStaFEHRian

Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 NEMO, just wanted to let you know that I found your foreshadowings post (re Destiny) and 3/4 posts to be excellent. What a great effort. I have kept them for reference. I hope the site managers have space for an archive sometime. Looking forward to more in the future. Don't forget my question about "G .44" when you have time. Also , would like to see your reference lists for holidays like Easter, Christmas (why am I not surprised) and Valentines (also no surprise), etc.

SF- why do I feel so sad that you are going back to lurkdom? It was so good of you to come out and play for awhile. I'll miss you. (I miss Elliot, too). I hope you plan to drop out of gun from lurkerspace when the new season starts. But I understand about not having time. I was gone for several weeks because I was under the with schoolwork and work work (where I can't really post). Still am, but I got past the major hurdles.

Rosta

07-20-2000 12:16 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by amx On a science news server I subscribe to, it was recently posted that the speed of light has now been demonstrated experimentally to NOT be a constant. Apparently, Dr Lijun Wang (NEC Research Institute - Princeton) has accelerated light pulses to up to 300 times their theoretical maximum velocity (186 0000 miles per second) if the speed of light were a constant....

OK, this is now on the AIP news page. http://www.aip.org/enews/physnews/2000/physnews.495.htm This looks like another anomalous-dispersion effect. The impression that anything significant is moving faster than light seems more apparent than real; to avoid misconceptions we may need more careful definitions about pulse timing in such an unusual medium. Causality and the invariance of lightspeed are not threatened.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-20-2000 at 10:36 PM]

07-20-2000 10:26 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Nemo quote:

Originally posted by jenlev nemo: regarding what you said about the silver handprint reversed in the pilot episode... maybe they went through the "looking glass" like alice?

Either that or some fourth dimension.

What is this woman thinking?

a) OMG, what's happening to me!?

b) I could swear Makeup put that on right. How'd it get flipped?

c) This 4th-dimension stuff is way too subtle. Will half you guys even figure out the mirror thing?

07-20-2000 10:40 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Nemo-- Definitely b or c!

07-20-2000 10:45 PM

amx

Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 597 Dropping out of lurk mode briefly (and wondering HOW I managed to miss SF)!

Nemo, all that excitement and not much to show for it. Ah me!

amx

07-21-2000 01:53 AM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 It took me forever to read through this, and read through it with some comprehension. I have to type fast so I won't forget what I wanted to comment on the many topics presented.... bear with me if I ramble/babble/sound slightly deranged.

bloodlines- If there is something to the bloodline theory, hopefully it is merely symbolic. Trying to keep bloodlines pure has led to the downfall of many a royal family... diseases such as hemophelia, madness, deformities, yada yada, have been the result. If the home teams goal was to create a super being by mating individuals, that reduces our podsters to mere breeders. Can you say Nazi Germany???

cloning and ethics - I don't really think that the home team obtained permission for this little experiment ahead of time. "Gee, beloved leader, in case of your death, can we clone you, combine you with human DNA and ship you off to Earth until you're ready to come back and fight again...maybe die again?" I don't know about you, but I don't think I would agree to such a hare brained scheme.

solar flares and hatchings - I theorized somewhere before that the podlings hatched too early. I don't think they were intended to pop out as 6 year olds... especially 6 year olds who could not communicate, etc. Besides, they sent Nasedo/Harding along as a nanny???? Mary Poppins he ain't.

Dreamwalking - I do think that the dreamwalker (Isabel) can interact with the dreamer. I think she did not when she visited Alex because she was fascinated with the scene that was being played out. I think she wanted to see where it led. Remember, she woke herself up just as Alex was about to kiss her. I think she did interact with her mom in some way, because it evidently scared the bejeezus out of her. Why else would she be sleepless for weeks?

Time travel/space distortion/stuff I have vague knowledge of - OK... when we think about the whole harebrained "save the planet" plan, I always wonder about the distance the home planet is from Earth. How long do you reckon it took the ship to get here, anyway? We know that they came from another GALAXY!!!! How long ago did they set this plan into motion? I tend to think that the home planet is already gone. If their sun was the red giant, it's possible that their world was distroyed, and spacemom's message was a message that was created at the time they left, to be played when the four came together with the communicators.

OK... my short term memory has now fizzled out. BTW... can anyone tell me how to extend the life of my connection to the internet. I'm on AOL and this crazy thing will ask me if I want to remain on if it doesn't sense activity... and sometimes it doesn't ask... it just disconnects. This has happened several times while I am in the middle of typing one of my brilliant analysis, or even reading. I have cursed it like a sailor, but it does no good. :finger: Please help me before I throw this thing against the wall.

[Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 07-21-2000 at 02:00 AM]

07-21-2000 08:13 AM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Lorrilei1960

I think the story has told us the plan was interfered with. (Symbolism of Topolsky knocking out the sheriff, right on top of the symbolic pod chamber; that's why no one was there for the kids when they emerged.) Doubtless the podsters were supposed to have good help, and that part of the plan failed. Maybe the original 4 aliens comprised some mentors as well as some bodyguards?

quote:

In real life, intergalactic transit times would be prohibitive; but in this story (like many others), the travel time appears to be no great burden. [In trying to interpret this story, I have learned not to rule things out based on real astrophysics. Such enormous liberties have already been taken (stars that stay up winter and spring, fast-acting red giants) that nothing further would surprise me.] I just suspend disbelief and keep trying to listen to what the words and symbols are saying.

quote:

How long ago did they set this plan into motion? I tend to think that the home planet is already gone. If their sun was the red giant, it's possible that their world was distroyed....

That seems to be strongly implied in SH, and elaborately foreshadowed for a long time. I gave some examples above. As a further hint, note the prevalence of orange light (remarked by pixiedude in TH, where Isabel mentions the yellow sun; also in BD. We recognize that color as very transitory, as the poet said. (Robert Frost, "Nothing gold can stay")

(quoted) BTW... can anyone tell me how to extend the life of my connection to the internet. I'm on AOL and this crazy thing will ask me if I want to remain on if it doesn't sense activity... and sometimes it doesn't ask... it just disconnects. This has happened several times while I am in the middle of typing one of my brilliant analysis, or even reading. I have cursed it like a sailor, but it does no good. :finger: Please help me before I throw this thing against the wall.

(reply)For longer posts I sometimes use a separate editor. But then, lots of mine start short and grow long only gradually....

07-21-2000 09:08 AM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote:

Originally posted by SF Reggie and pixiedude, LSS had a novel idea about Ed and the rock wall in the pod chamber. She suggested that he teleported into the chamber from somewhere else. Considering that he told Tess to go to the pod chamber if there was trouble, he might have a way to get there quickly. We haven�t seen anything since to confirm or refute the teleportation idea.

Wow. I should have thought of teleportation! (Nuts. And I'm an old Perry Rhodan fan, too.) Yes, teleportation is the obvious solution. Not that TPTB take the obvious direction with Roswell, of course. Given the parapsycic abilities of the shapeshifters and podsters (two different species, IMHO), it is reasonable to have telepotation turn out to be a possibility. This would offer "Pierce" a way in and out of the FBI lair w/o using the hand scanner.

quote:

Originally posted by SF I do remember our conversation (w. Nemo) about the visions in SH, and I still agree with all the imagery you�ve found to indicate that their home world was engulfed by a red giant. I�m not sure if it was this thread or the leaving normal thread, but I remember you and LSS having a conversation about the possibilities of a time travel story. If they see the destroyed planet as they leave, then someone might have had to go back in time to harvest the essences, i.e., prior to planet destruction. Or the essences are really old, and they�ve been in someone�s possession a long time. Or the planet fragmented shortly after the beloved leader died, and everything happened in real time. Of course destiny itself points to the trio/quartet having to go back in time to save their enslaved people. Part of me thinks that their enslaved people are on a planet they fled to after the destruction of their home planet. But that makes me wonder why they remember the exodus from their original planet. SF

I was re-watching SH last night. The image used is of a black hole (and its accretion ring). We've not seen any actual red giants in particular. Furthermore, if a planet orbits a red giant, then both: it got a lot warmer, some tens of millions of years ago, and it didn't used to be habitably warm. (There isn't enough time for life to have developed.) Or, the habitable planet was cooked when the star became a red giant, some millions of years ago. (Not a home for Mom & Co.) Sorry, but I can't buy any planet-of-a-red-giant story; it's just not workable. Red giants do not, can not, have planets with native life. As for time travel: if you can move about freely, then you can go back and fix anything that went wrong. I.E., blow up the pods before the gang hatched. End of story.

[Edited by Reggie on 07-21-2000 at 09:16 AM]

07-21-2000 11:43 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 quote:

Originally posted by Reggie I was re-watching SH last night. The image used is of a black hole

In the books a worm hole is use to teletransport from planet A to planet B, but it takes exhaustive amounts of energy.

And re:quote:

Sorry, but I can't buy any planet-of-a-red-giant story; it's just not workable. Red giants do not, can not, have planets with native life.

Um, please define "native life." Would these include shapeshifters who eat Tobasco Sauce and are heat sensitive?

On the subject of time travel in general in the Roswell show: As of Destiny, I don't recall any hints of time travel. Of course, if it's the ultimate solution to plot resolution, I'm sure it will be employed.

07-21-2000 11:46 AM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Reggie I was re-watching SH last night. The image used is of a black hole (and its accretion ring). We've not seen any actual red giants in particular. Furthermore, if a planet orbits a red giant, then both: it got a lot warmer, some tens of millions of years ago, and it didn't used to be habitably warm. (There isn't enough time for life to have developed.) Or, the habitable planet was cooked when the star became a red giant, some millions of years ago. (Not a home for Mom & Co.) Sorry, but I can't buy any planet-of-a-red-giant story; it's just not workable. Red giants do not, can not, have planets with native life. As for time travel: if you can move about freely, then you can go back and fix anything that went wrong. I.E., blow up the pods before the gang hatched. End of story.

About time travel. I agree, if you can edit history like a word processor, what story is possible? How can there ever be suspense, or meaningful accomplishment? I hope our storytellers are up to the challenge, because it now looks like they're going that way. (I am now all but certain.) (Or at least they were planning to; the new writers may have other ideas.)

About the red giant. I know the black-hole scene you are referring to. That is not what makes me think a red giant comes into the story. (I know we have not been shown an image recognizable as a red giant -- from a distance it would look like any red star, right?)

About the timescales and other actual astrophysics: I struggled with the same issues. At last the repeated evidence of the story convinced me that Roswellian astronomy is radically different from ours. Stars can change colors almost as fast as a traffic light (symbolized, I think, by Isabel changing her lipstick colors. Well, I am exaggerating just a little). So the way to understand the story is by studying the story. Supplementing it with what we know from textbooks often just gets in the way. So one suspends disbelief (or not) for the sake of the story.

07-21-2000 12:03 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 quote:

I don't know... alot of great sci-fi deals with time travel and the interference of what should have/would have/might have happened. Where I get all muzzy is when situations arise which shouldn't because someone was there who wasn't the first time... or, if this had happened, he wouldn't have been born, and if he had never been born, how could he have gone back to interfere... stuff like that makes me cross-eyed. I just don't think that throwing time travel into this particular mix is all that appealing. I think the word processor analogy is apropro. Why not go back to before the evil alien invasion and prevent it? Why not prevent the deaths of the pod squad in the first place? In this case I think that time travel would only preclude the events. (I also don't like the idea that they are from our future... that would effectively remove the "alien on Earth" idea and all of its ramifications)

quote:

But of course, that's the great thing about storytelling and fiction... as long as our disbelief is not asked to become the incredulous. I am a student of history, and I love historical fiction! I only get mildly amused when there are slight deviations from the facts... but when there are glaring mistakes, I worry that some poor schmuck learns their history from this source alone and will now have a totally distorted view of world events. Same thing ala sci-fi... except I am not as well versed in the fine details of science.

07-21-2000 04:07 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 I agree with Reggie on the Black Hole and accretion ring. What we were shown was not a Red Giant.

Also, something that was pointed out on one of these threads was that the podsters never seem to be too cold, but do get too hot. This would definately not suggest a Red Giant homeworld, as natives of this planet would have adjusted over the millions of generations(yes) as their star slowly warmed and started to swell.

I am surprised that people are thinking of the homeworld being destroyed anyhow. Wouldn't it make more sense that it is the Bad Alien Type's homeworld that was endangered and that's why they had to enslave Max's planet - so they could invade and take over the planet for themselves? If there is a natural disaster, I would look to the B.A.T.'s homeworld, not Max's. Why would BATS want to enslave a DYING world?

Maybe Max's people are facing slow extinction, as the B.A.T.s need fewer and fewer slaves and more and space for their own arriving population. This would be if the theory about it being a civil war and one faction enslaving the other was not true.

07-21-2000 07:01 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Just a couple more things while I'm thinking of them.

Teleportation of Harding into the pod chamber: Harding admonished Tess for bringing them to the pod chamber, as if he had NOT KNOWN she was going to bring Max to the area. Sooo..., how could Harding have predicted that Max and the others would be going in and gone in to wait for them?

What if he had a way of knowing that the chamber had been opened, like an alarm that would go off in case the enemy found it? What if detectors could tell him WHAT entered the chamber? The signature energies, essences, or whatever, tell him it is the podsters, so he waits till it is only Tess's inside before he teleports in to repremand her.

Time travel: I am afraid that time travel is going to be used to explain where they come from (here). If the writers minimize it's use, and stay more credible, then it could be used simply to get them back to their planet at the right time. They do seem to be taking their good old time saving the home planet. Maybe it's because they can just set a timer and get back not long after they left - OR here is a creepy thought - what if they are suposed to send the podsters back before they left and they are to team up with themselves to prevent their enslavement and assasinations or their top people? Yuk.

07-21-2000 08:00 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Palomino I agree with Reggie on the Black Hole and accretion ring. What we were shown was not a Red Giant.

I think we all agree about the black hole. (I was the one who identified and explained that in April at SF's request. Also the references to heat/cold you cited.)

I also agree we were not shown a red giant (or not much of one). One reason for this might be: If you tried to show me just a picture of a red giant, without words, in such a way that I would recognize it as a red giant, you would run into the obvious difficulty that there is nothing to convey the size scale. Not unless you show it engulfing a planet. Which is exactly what the story did. But then you can't fit the whole star into view and still see the planet as more than a tiny speck. And if you show a close-up of the planet, then only a tiny bit of the limb of the star will fit into view. That is what was shown. The rest of the idea was conveyed by words between Liz and the science teacher. And elaborately foreshadowed before then, over many episodes.

At first I wrote in April or May about the millions of generations etc. for the same reasons you mention. Finally I realized that the writers simply aren't using the same kind of red giants you and I know about. The fictional red giant in the story goes from no problem when the podsters' space voyage began ~50 years ago to obliterating the home planet since then. Probably soon after the departure. I realise this is astrophysically preposterous. Nevertheless, it seems to be the story line. (Otherwise, a lot of things in the story serve no purpose, which is also preposterous. I am betting the writers know or care more about storytelling than astronomy.) So many things fit neatly once you set aside your astronomy book.

07-21-2000 08:11 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Palomino Teleportation of Harding into the pod chamber: Harding admonished Tess for bringing them to the pod chamber, as if he had NOT KNOWN she was going to bring Max to the area. Sooo..., how could Harding have predicted that Max and the others would be going in and gone in to wait for them?

Sounds convincing to me. Thanks.

07-22-2000 12:12 AM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 quote:

Originally posted by Nemo quote:

Sounds convincing to me. Thanks.

I hadn't thought of that... but when Nasedo/Harding did come out of the rock formation, he reminded me of a vampire coming out of his coffin. Perhaps he was "resting".

07-22-2000 06:31 AM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Reggie if a planet orbits a red giant, then both: it got a lot warmer, some tens of millions of years ago, and it didn't used to be habitably warm. (There isn't enough time for life to have developed.) Or, the habitable planet was cooked when the star became a red giant, some millions of years ago. (Not a home for Mom & Co.)

Reggie, now I see the difficulty you are pointing to. But the picture I think the storytellers are giving us is of a normal star waking up one day and changing into a red giant, thus destroying the home planet as Vesuvius destroyed Pompeii. I didn't mean to imply that the star was a red giant already when Mom's plan was launched. Sorry if I misled you.

07-22-2000 09:34 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Or maybe the planet of the Red Star was just a stop over on an eons-long quest for a place to stay. Reminds me of the song Jeff was listening to in LN, The Weight: "Take a load off Fanny, Take a load for free, Take a load off Fanny, A--a--An-n-nd, You put the weight right on me." **shapeshifter (like GC told Jeff) showing her age **

07-22-2000 09:40 AM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 167 I saw Katherine on Later the other night. I don't think anyone has mentioned it, so I will. One of the questions she asked was, "So, what are you after of that you don't want to admit." Her answer-- "Slugs!"

07-22-2000 10:03 AM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Nemo: First, a star does not just wake up and turn into a Red Giant. That is even more impossible. The stars that would turn the quickest into a red giant(millions of years) would be so large that they would have too short of a lifespan to develop life.

Shapeshifter: I am more inclined to agree with you. What if what we saw was some of the high points of the trip, like landmarks. Notice when the camera shows the black hole and accretion ring that we are going towards it, not away from it as if they were leaving their homeworld. What if they were using the black hole's gravity to facilitate time travel? What if their journey was not a straight line to Earth, but a zig zag to try to shake off the bad guys?

07-22-2000 11:27 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Just to clarify, I meant the planet of the Red Star would have been their home planet for however long it would have been habitable, and while sojourning there, which could have been a century or two (you guys will have to fill in that blank). Then they selected Earth as the next place to go. Oh, and the more appropriate lines of that song (for aliens journeying on to a new home planet or grandmothers journeying on out of this life): "I pulled into Nazereth, Was feeling 'bout half past dead, ...Just looking for a place to lay my head, Hey Mister can you tell me, Where a [shapeshifter] might find a bed, He just grinned and shook his head, No was all he said." or pretty much like that.

07-22-2000 12:28 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 quote:

Originally posted by Palomino

Very good point... I hadn't thought of this. I assumed that the red giant was important because it's where they came from... but it makes much more sense if it WAS a landmark of their journey. Which means that it is possible that they came from even farther away than the Whirlwind Galaxy... or perhaps from the far side of it.

shapeshifter... now you have that song planted in my mind. It is very apropro.

07-22-2000 01:37 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Palomino Nemo: First, a star does not just wake up and turn into a Red Giant.

In the real universe, of course not. Palomino, you know that, and I know that. (I have Iben's calculations right in front of me.) But it looks as if the writers haven't let that hinder them from using the idea.

There are other examples where the writers have endowed their fictional skies with remarkably different properties than astrophysicists would recognize, apparently for maximum dramatic impact at whatever compromise with real-world plausibility. Thus, the V is overhead in December to resonate with the Christmas story. (Some see it already in the September episodes.) Yet it's there again in April, and Venus is said to be part of it. Now the Venus we know can't hang around one group of stars for months, or leave and return in four months. But in the Roswellian skies, the stars and planets arrange themselves for whatever momentous events need announcing. By this time, is it not clear to what lengths the writers will go for the sake of the story? (And, I suspect, as in astronomy, so also in biology, etc.)

Besides, there is a long movie tradition of speeding up those boringly slow natural processes to keep the audience excited. So, as Isabel said, multiply that by about a million.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-22-2000 at 03:46 PM]

07-22-2000 03:28 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Palomino What if what we saw was some of the high points of the trip, like landmarks. Notice when the camera shows the black hole and accretion ring that we are going towards it, not away from it as if they were leaving their homeworld. What if they were using the black hole's gravity to facilitate time travel? What if their journey was not a straight line to Earth, but a zig zag to try to shake off the bad guys?

Exactly. The visions look like a small selection of the most revealing scenes from the trip. That's why I think the exploding planet we saw really was the home world; otherwise, why include it in such an abbreviated account? Why would they even get close enough to see some other planet, except the one they started from?

Now that we know about strife on the home planet, your suggestion about eluding pursuit looks like a possible explanation for using the black hole. Others have also agreed with the idea of using the black hole as a portal for a spatial shortcut or time-travel means.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-22-2000 at 04:45 PM]

07-22-2000 04:25 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 quote:

Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 ...when Nasedo/Harding did come out of the rock formation, he reminded me of a vampire coming out of his coffin. Perhaps he was "resting"....

Leneba remarked that his passing through stone looked as if there was resistance to overcome; then as he emerged into air, he lunged forward as if abruptly freed from this drag. (also stopped shielding his face) This fits with the idea revealed later, that some materials are so dense he cannot get through them at all.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-22-2000 at 04:29 PM]

07-22-2000 05:06 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 quote:

Originally posted by Nemo quote:

Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 ...when Nasedo/Harding did come out of the rock formation, he reminded me of a vampire coming out of his coffin. Perhaps he was "resting"....

[Edited by Nemo on 07-22-2000 at 04:29 PM]

True. But where did he come from, if he was pushing through the rocks. Was he hiding in the bushes? I'm still considering the teleportation idea. It is very prevelent in the books... and if they can manipulate molecular structure, could they then "dissolve" themselves and rematerialize elsewhere? If so, it would explain how Nasedo really seems to get around. On the other hand, there isn't any real evidence to support this theory, is there?

07-22-2000 05:31 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 I'm not pushing this "theory" just yet; I'm watching for more data. But I think Palomino's observations have added considerably.

07-22-2000 05:58 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 quote:

Originally posted by Nemo I'm not pushing this "theory" just yet; I'm watching for more data. But I think Palomino's observations have added considerably.

I'm with you on the "yet".

07-22-2000 06:23 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 I'm not pushing the theory of teleportation either, nor was I the one who came up with it.

When I saw it on the thread, it made more sense than Harding following T/M to the place and getting past them to the chamber to hide incase they went in. Also, it seems he did not know about it ahead of time or he would have been cross with her before hand not afterwards.

"Harding" at this point is still pretending to be Ed Harding, civilian consultant for the army, and would have to show up for work during the morning. If he teleported in and out, he could still make it to work and not blow his cover.

Which brings up several questions: 1. In M2tM, did Harding call off sick from his job with the army, or did he drop the sherade without telling Tess? In case something went wrong, shouldn't he have warned her to go somewhere safe while he was "taking care of something you don't need to know about?" 2. Why was the armed guard and two suits at his house before he moved in? This does not match the job description he gave Valenti. 3. Now that "Harding" has disappeared, will the army put out an APB and question his daughter? 4. If "Harding" had to drag Tess around for 10-11 years, changing identities and faces, he surely had her change her name too (but not her face from what we are led to believe). Is Tess her "real" name? 5. Had there been a real Ed Harding? Did he die of a silver iron-on?

07-22-2000 07:53 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 509 Palomino, I agree that if Harding can teleport, that would explain how he can juggle so many roles. Maybe he can continue as Harding even in his new role. Also, I liked the observation you made before that (your para. 2).

On your question 2. "Why was the armed guard and two suits at his house before he moved in? This does not match the job description he gave Valenti."

At first I thought his job was less routine than he claimed, and the military types were part of that (maybe sweeping the place). But after we saw Pierce's operatives at the Eagle Rock site, I imagine the ones at Harding's house were more of the same, adding substance to Tess's remarks about being hunted all the time. I think the label on the HumVee and the sign at the Eagle Rock installation said "US Military," not US Army or any specific branch.

07-22-2000 08:56 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 I'm inclined to think that IF there was a real Ed Harding, he went the way of the siver iron-on. We know that Nasedo/Harding has no qualms about killing.

If Ed Harding wasn't a real guy, then Nasedo had to fake all of the documents to get the job in the first place... and what an odd job for him to choose... smack dab in the US military. You would think he would want to be a little more low key. And if this wasn't a real job, he still had documentation in place, because Valenti had him checked out. Getting the forged documents wouldn't be a problem for Nasedo/Harding, but why go to such an elaborate ruse? Surely he could have found another job to take him to Roswell!

07-23-2000 09:22 AM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 On the other hand, his job is near perfect.

1. He is not in uniform, so he has more freedom of movement.

2. He would not have to be under scrutiny about his physical condition/health.

3. He is close enough to the military to have a good idea what they are up to.

4. They probably are not expecting him to be so close to them.

A question again: When Harding said he was consulting to help them convert facilities for storage, would this have been the same base that the WHITE ROOM was in, or are there multiple abandoned bases around Roswell. If Eagle Rock was the same base he was working at, then he was very close to the FBI, if not in cahoots with them. (In "Destiny" M/L were being chased by the FBI who were using a HumVee also). Was Harding lying about what kind of consulting he was doing? Did he betray buddies in the FBI that were counting on him to betray other aliens? Did Harding not tell them they were hybrid saviors, because he had no intention of really helping the FBI - he just wanted to kill Pierce? There has to be an easier way, but then, we are talking about "Harding", who does not seem to be known for his navigation systems.

[Edited by Palomino on 07-23-2000 at 09:29 AM]

07-23-2000 08:30 PM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 quote:

Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 But of course, that's the great thing about storytelling and fiction... as long as our disbelief is not asked to become the incredulous. I am a student of history, and I love historical fiction! I only get mildly amused when there are slight deviations from the facts... but when there are glaring mistakes, I worry that some poor schmuck learns their history from this source alone and will now have a totally distorted view of world events. Same thing ala sci-fi... except I am not as well versed in the fine details of science.

Exactly the point! I'm pretty well versed in science, and certain parts of history. (I do Revolutionary War, and F&IW, re-enactments as another hobby.) I'm willing to suspend disbelief on certain things as a price of admission: FTL Drives, "universal translators", etc. If you start with ESP and other parapsycic abilities, OK, I'll try it. "Manipulating molecules" to turn catsup into mustard, or healing wounds, or shapeshifting? Well, that's pushing it. You'd better entertain me!

There was a group of stories, some years back, where the protagonist was a detective in a world where magic worked. Lord something-or other. The magic had to obey specific rules, though, and be consistant. Isaac Asimov had the same problem when he wrote the first robot stories. All I ask is self-consistancy, and at least plausable correspondence with the real world. Second Season will be difficult; they now have sci-fi writers who will have to put rules in, where there were none before, and make it look good. I think that they have the romance part OK, and the characters are believable.

07-23-2000 08:52 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 Reggie: I agree with you. What has been making this show work thus far is the believability of the characters. If they weren't written and played so extraordinarily well, this show would have been a farce. If they can keep that part in tact (and the romance angle) AND create consistantly believable Sci-Fi... this show will be around for a long time! (Hope springs eternal )

07-23-2000 10:22 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 603 Palomino, I have believed for some time that Harding is a double or triple agent. Just now, reading your post, it has occurred to me that "shapeshifter" is almost synonymous with "double agent." Also, it would not seem unlikely that the original Harding was involved with the alien hunters and hence fair game in Nasedo's mind. And in Destiny Harding became Pierce without a second thought, as if taking on alien hunters' shapes was second nature to him after who knows how many centuries on the planet (recall his antiques).

Lorillei and Reggie: The cast seems to have been chosen primarily for their allure and charm--well-suited for teenage romance; it would be a waste to turn them into clones of Mr. Spock.

07-24-2000 12:22 AM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter Palomino, I have believed for some time that Harding is a double or triple agent. Just now, reading your post, it has occurred to me that "shapeshifter" is almost synonymous with "double agent." Also, it would not seem unlikely that the original Harding was involved with the alien hunters and hence fair game in Nasedo's mind. And in Destiny Harding became Pierce without a second thought, as if taking on alien hunters' shapes was second nature to him after who knows how many centuries on the planet (recall his antiques).

I often wondered about the significance of all of the stuff he collected. Obviously he is a world traveller... but he could have collected his trinkets first hand, as well. We also know that the ancients "reported" strange lights in the sky and all that stuff. It does give one pause... (ohgod, a whole summer's worth of pause )

quote:

Lorillei and Reggie: The cast seems to have been chosen primarily for their allure and charm--well-suited for teenage romance; it would be a waste to turn them into clones of Mr. Spock.

Well, I'm no teenager, but I'm definitely allured!