Topic: The Science Fiction of Independence Day
This thread is 3 pages long: 1 2 3
08-07-2000 04:40 PM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364 The boards are acting up and I thought I had posted this thread. Hopefully it won't be a duplicate!!!
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Independence Day gives us, in my estimation, one of Fehr's best performances of the season. It also raises several issues that spark our interest even as we rewatch it from our post-Destiny vantage point.
THE TIC-TAC INGESTING SHAPESHIFTER. Theories abound on the boards concerning the various aliens thus far revealed to us in the series. Tonight's episode is historical in that it provides us with our very first glimpse of the shapeshifting alien we (possibly) see again in Crazy. Three questions concerning this alien remain unresolved as we stand on the brink of Roswell's second season:
1) Is the tic-tac shapeshifter the same figure that we will later encounter as Mr. Harding? While Harding makes the same movements preparatory to shapeshifting (hand held out in front), he does not routinely need those pills/tictacs to shapeshift.
2) Are we to understand the objects that he ingests as pain killers or energy replacements? While we have discussed this previously, we have yet to get confirmation in our storyline as to their purpose.
3) What of those inhuman sounds reported coming from the trailer? It is one thing to kill to protect Michael. It is quite another to torture one's victim. Whereas the former can be understood as necessaryperhaps even noble, it is much harder to explain the latter. One cannot help but think of poor Max in The White Room. Is it possible that Hank has information that the alien needs? Or should we think of an alien sadist here?
MICHAEL, ISABEL, AND MAX. Our podsters almost break up in this episode which leads us in an odd way back to Destiny. Max reminds Michael of the close bond that unites him with Max and Izzy. That bond is explained in Destiny in terms of sibling relationships ( Max and Izzy) and past betrothals (Michael and Izzy). What it does not tell us, however, is Michael's relationship to Tess. Originally we were led to believe that Michael and Tess were siblings. But thus far this is not confirmed in the storyline. In Independence Day, Michael realizes that the "family" he has in Roswell is worth more than the alien family he might encounter beyond Roswell's city limits.
Familybondingthe themes of Independence Day come back to haunt us in Destiny. Can Maria, Alex, and Liz every really be accepted into this alien familial circle? What is it that really connects us to another? Biology? Love? Programming? Michael (we are told later) has been "programmed." But such terminology is more suited to the impersonal world of machines than the world of human relationships.
The Michael we see sobbing in the rain in Independence Day is all too human. And try as he might to escape this, it would appear that he has no better luck than Max in sidestepping his human heritage.
Well folkwhat do you think?
LSS
08-07-2000 06:44 PM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Thank you LSS.
I guess what intrigues me the most in this episode is Tic-tac. He does not seem to be the same character we later encounter in Ed Harding.
Physically, Harding and Tic-tac shapeshift differently (unless the special effects were changed mid-season). Harding gets very bright and seems to blend from one face to another, and gives off a yellowish light. Tic-tac's gives off a bluish light and his features seem to "bleed" from one face to the next.
Killing is done rather quickly and unemotionally by Harding. In ID, we hear that Hank was apparently tortured before he was killed, because "ear witnesses" from the trailor park tell the sheriff about the horrible sounds. It does not seem in keeping with Harding's personality. Harding didn't show any concern for how the podsters felt, and didn't mind if they were scared or upset by what he did. Tic-tac, in his brief appearances, seemed to show a great deal of concern and caring for the podsters, and it is more believable for him to torture the abusive foster father. In this episode Tic-tac risked being caught to exact his revenge, and even stayed around to pose as Hank infront of the sheriff to explain the disappearance.
Harding is quick and jerky in his movements, but Tic-tac is deliberate and smooth in his movements. Harding seems to put people on edge and makes them nervous, while Tic-tac has a calming, soothing effect.
...And then, of course, the other difference is the tic-tacs - that we never see Harding popping.
I find Harding entertaining, but not trustworthy or of good judgement. Although I think Tic-tac is a little scarey at times, he has a very fatherly side, and uses better judgement. I actually like the Tic-tac character.
I hope they actually carry through with making them separate characters, and the differences were not just results of poor writers' continuity.
[Edited by Palomino on 08-07-2000 at 06:49 PM]
08-07-2000 07:15 PM jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 293 hi there,
regarding the 'tic-tacs'... maybe some people the shapeshifter morphs into leave a bad taste in his mouth.... although, seriously, it's possible that when the shapeshifter gathers whatever information he/she/it needs to make the change---that different peoples illnesses and functioning levels go with the package?
but i'm leaning towards the two shapeshifter end of the spectrum at this point...it might explain a lot of the inconsistancies that ocurred as the season progressed? and pierce in the white room doesn't seem very clear regarding the eventual fate of the alien they studied for 3 years?
interesting how max and isabel respond to the potential loss of michael...isabel seems to defend with anger against fear, max seems to be almost imobile with fear? perhaps i've overstated this though?
as to what happened in the trailer between hank and the shapeshifter... it's another connundrum (pardon my spelling) that suggests the huge gap between the alien shapeshifter(s) and the humans. it seems as if the aliens (or at least nasedo?)do not comprehend human emotions...or physical limitations? or perhaps one or more of the shapeshifters has been completely damaged on all levels by their experiences?
and it speaks even more to the existential struggle that the podsters are encountering in reconciling their alien and human heritages. it seems that the podsters capacity to integrate their heritages coincides with their ability to accept the humans into their 'family'.
palomino: i agree with what you pointed out regarding the differences between 'tic-tac' and nasedo. given the possibility that 'tic-tac' was the other alien captured for three years and tortured by the fbi his ability to shapeshift might have been impared? and his 'psychological' functioning may also be, shall i say, messed up?
and was 'tic-tac' the one who picked up michael hitchhiking? or am i reading too much into it? well it's late, i'm tired and i just can't remember if 'tic-tac' morphs into the same actor that drove michael out of town?
jenlev
08-07-2000 07:23 PM rocklowery
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 258 I find Palomino's assessment of Tictac and Harding to be right on the money. The one alien that still puzzles me is the one at the end of Blind Date; which is he? I am assuming that they are the only two who know of their whereabouts since the beacon wasn't set off until Destiny. I tend to think it's Tictac, since Tess later reveals that Harding hasn't left her alone for any length of time. If it had been Harding, then we would've seen Tess sooner, in time to "help" Max find the orb. I kind of wonder if Tictac got things moving early for Max and Liz so that they could connect without interference from Harding and Tess (pure speculation on my part).
Tictac also does a better job of covering his tracks, i.e. posing as Hank. He does slip up though with the Dr. but that is understandable since he didn't know there would be a fire at the institute that would kill Topolsky. He definately has a stronger connection to the podsquad than Harding, as was indicated by the photo of all three of them that he burned in that symbol.
Some think it was a malevolent move, but maybe it was foreshadowing for the evil alien intent toward the podsquad. Could that symbol be the one for the evil alien empire, much like the whirlwind galaxy is the symbol for Max's people? Also note the differences that are associated with each signal, whirlwind-blue light, cool association like ice or cold; supernova-hot association, fire or burning. These two themes are seen numerous times throughout the series, both in obvious instances and as subtle clues. Could this also be a hint as to which side he was originally aligned with?
Anyway, that's my ponderings, now on to dinner. I have to wait until SATURDAY to see the eppy, since there's a Dodgers game on the WB Well, there's always my tape
Jenlev: He morphs into the man we see at the end of Sexual Healing. The man who picks him up doesn't have a beard.
[Edited by rocklowery on 08-07-2000 at 07:42 PM]
08-07-2000 07:35 PM Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 Others have posted more eloquently than me on the differences between TicTac and Harding, but this thread gives me the oppurtunity to show where I stand. I guess the fun will come out later.
I do not think TicTac is the same alien as Mr. Ed Harding. I guess the reason why I think this is because it's the overall feeling I get from the actors and the script. This seems very flimsy, but that's where I stand.
I think TicTac plays two roles in this episode, and a third in Sexual Healing. First role, obviously, is Hank killer. Second role is the driver that picks up Michael. It's odd how a perfect stranger (NASEDO) knew exactly what to tell Michael to get him to go back to Roswell. And in the flip episode to this one, Sexual Healing, I believe the same alien is the rancher that finds Max and Liz sleeping out in the desert with the orb in their possession. The digging that TicTac does to bury Hank reminds me of Liz and Max digging for the orb.
In fact, I think there could be four shapeshifting aliens in the alien mythology. TicTac (Michael's protector), Ed Harding (Tess's protector), Shelia Hubble (she fell in love with a human and got pregnant, why she was killed the way she was-- could be Max's protector), and then Isabel's protector. I have a weak theory this was suppose to be Agent Pierce, but he got feed up waiting and sold out to the enemy. I really see Agent Pierce as the alien that walks through FIRE at the end of BD. Forgive me for my uninteresting ramblings-- I digress.
I don't think they're really any significance to popping TICTACs before shapeshifting. I just think it's more or less a character quirk. They could be painkillers. I doubt he's really after freshening his breathe .
Jen you said this, "interesting how max and isabel respond to the potential loss of michael...isabel seems to defend with anger against fear, max seems to be almost imobile with fear? perhaps i've overstated this though?" From a post Destiny POV, I really do see a Michael/Isabel relationship. She's anger because she loves him so much, she can't express it into words. She really does seem to love Michael--. I was never convinced that Isabel and Alex nor Maria and Michael have a soulmate type relationship like Max and Liz. Then again, I'm comparing them to the gold standard of love too.
LSS, you asked a very important question about whether or not Alex, Maria, and Liz would ever be part of the Alien family. I don't think that Alex, Maria or Liz will ever be anything more than human. Not even human w/ a kick. But they are apart of the alien family. Whether the method is by love, biology or programming seems rather insignificant. If they weren't apart of the family, I don't think we'd have a show.
From Nebraska
Qfanny!
08-07-2000 07:59 PM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Rocklowery : I agree about Tic-tac and Harding playing their roles differently. T-t certainly is more professional and covers his tracks well. Harding is more like a blindfolded bull in a china shop.
One of the things that also showed me how they were different was how cool Harding was to Tess even though he raised her, while T-t was so caring and kind to the group when he hardly knew them (in this life).
Jenlev : I don't know which one would have been the tortured one. Harding seems to be Nasedo, but he is also the most neurotic. It makes me wonder if he was the one held in captivity. Tic-tac is the more functional of the two - emotionally as well. I hope Michael-lovers don't hate me for this, but don't these two contrasting characters remind you of Michael and Max?
08-07-2000 08:48 PM Karst
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 212 I don't know which is the more functional shapeshifter. Tic-Tac seems to need more effort to shift. At the end of ID, he seemed staggered and sweaty after the shift. The difference in shifting style seems to show more effort - Harding shifts faster, and seems almost energized by it (the look on "Pierce's" face at the end of Destiny).
As for the tortured sounds, I think Tic-Tac would have wanted some information out of Hank, namely what he knows about Michael and who (if anyone) he has talked to. Also, we haven't seen Tic-Tac kill. If he has more problems shapeshifting, he may have more problems killing, but not because of morals. So the process for him may be slower than Harding's.
08-07-2000 08:56 PM Kim648
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 184 You guys all have some very interesting points.
I definately think Tictac is a different alien than Harding. There are a lot of good things you pointed out as differences. I'm also sure they don't change their attitude with each character they shapeshift into, since they seem to act physically the same. I was thinking that maybe they're two different types of aliens. The fact that Tictac is constantly is poping the pills and Harding never needs them is interesting. I don't think the pills have anything to do with breath or character changes since he takes them while he's still Hank and then as the Rancher. It could be since Hank was suppose to have beer breath and the next character wasn't, but in SH he's still taking them, you'd think it would be gone already. Also, does he ever take them infront of humans? If they were for 'alien reasons', he would want them to be not noticable in case someone asked him for one or something. I think the pills are very likely for energy, like someone suggested, in ID he takes them before his hard work, then after he shapeshifts and looks really tired. In SH, although, does he take some pills while he's just sitting there? Maybe he was just low on energy for another reason though. Or does he have a pill then? It doesn't say in the script at the Crashdown.
I was also wondering if Tictac would know Max and Liz would find the communicator in SH. I know this is supposed to be discussed in the next thread, but in the end of ID, it shows him change into the Rancher and head of to the private property? Do you think maybe he has lived there for the past fifty years waiting?
I think that it is very likely that Harding was the one tortured and not Tictac. Harding is the one with the psycological problems and he does a quite a hate for Pierce. Tictac is much more normal and more likely to be Nasedo. Nasedo is nice to humans, like Tictac(seeing Liz in SH). It is possible Tictac is able to kill Atherton if he threatened Tictac, since he did kill Hank..who threatened Michael. It could have also been Harding, also, to screw up his life, but I think Harding had been somewhere else for a while before he came recently. The symbols I'm not quite sure about. Tictac, I think was already in Roswell and watching the kids, but maybe he just did this to assure them he was there. I think the symbol did bring Harding there, however.
I think in the end of blind date it is Harding.
About there being four portectors is a good idea, I'm not really sure, maybe they'll introduce more next season? Maybe the forth died like Mrs Hubble.
For what happened to Hank, I think it's either that he wanted to hurt Hank for what happened to Michael or he is a different type of alien to Harding and can't kill as easily. I was upset they didn't show the body, but it seemed to still be pretty intact. If it was Tictac that killed Atherton, it seems quite close top Harding's ways of killing. Maybe he can't get such a high temperature or isn't so strong and so it takes longer to kill them?
I think the driver wasn't Tictac. He doesn't really act like Tictac, more like Harding. Also, I think they showed what happened here to show how Michael couldn't go through with it. I think it was more than the comment that aliens would want to live here. If it was Tictac, I think he would act more like...oh, your a young boy, why are you running away for? There's more to live for...or soemthing along the lines like that.
Well that all I can think of right now..
08-07-2000 09:44 PM Karst
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 212 I kind of like the idea Tic-Tac slow-cooked Hank.
08-07-2000 09:56 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 Karst, you are one sick puppy!
Just a few quick comments.
I do think there are two Nasedo's. However, my theory about the tictacs that Tictac pops is a little more... boring. I think it may just be a habit he aquired...like smoking or chewing gum. He was really pooped before he shapeshifted into Herder Man because he had just buried a guy in record time. Maybe the tictacs relax him... like a good smoke after...well, never mind. I don't think he tortured Hank for the fun of it. I agree that he probably was trying to get info on how much Hank knew about Michael. The torture was either very well done (no marks) or was below the face. I don't think Harding would have been as elegant.
Regarding the relationship of the podsters. I never have doubted that they are strongly bonded. The interesting thing is the different ways in which Max and Isabel handle the situation with Michael. Isabel is much more aggressive, while Max falls into his passive mode. It has always bothered me that in the scene in the trailer, when Michael unleashes his powers, Max just kind of stands there, watching. His reaction is very noncommital... almost bland. Isabel wasn't much more shocked as it was going on. Even if I had been standing behind Michael, I would have been alarmed. His power was uncontrolled and stuff was flying all over the place. I might have tried to stop him, or at least tried to help him control it in some way. Perhaps, though, Max and Isabel felt that this was something Michael needed to do for his own sense of well-being, or inner satisfaction... I don't know.
08-07-2000 10:19 PM Lameduck
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 72 It seemed to me that TicTac didn't change his clothes in ID. When Harding shifts, he changes the complete outfit (i.e. in MTTM Max's clothes into the clown outfit) while this shifter still weemed to be wearing Hank's shirt. As pointed out by others, he also seemed weaker while in Destiny Harding shifts from FBI agent/Harding/different FBI agent in a few minutes, much less effort for him.
08-07-2000 10:19 PM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960You know, your comment made me think back over the season. There are very few times when M/I even see Michael's powers in action. The only times (off the top of my head) that I can remember is the key in 285 South and then in Destiny when he does the hand/killing thingie. Neither of them are around when he fries the window lock, heals River Dog, fries the Jetta engine, etc. He does wave his hand and activate the symbol in Into the Woods with the rest of them though.
It has always bothered me that in the scene in the trailer, when Michael unleashes his powers, Max just kind of stands there, watching. His reaction is very noncommital... almost bland. Isabel wasn't much more shocked as it was going on. Even if I had been standing behind Michael, I would have been alarmed. His power was uncontrolled and stuff was flying all over the place. I might have tried to stop him, or at least tried to help him control it in some way. Perhaps, though, Max and Isabel felt that this was something Michael needed to do for his own sense of well-being, or inner satisfaction... I don't know.
Maybe they are just not used to seeing him use his powers. Remember when he holds up his hand and causes the jeep engine to overheat and Max asks him what he did? Almost like even Max doesn't understand Michael's powers.
But I am with you...I think I'd have ducked when I saw his arm go up. Maybe they were afraid to interrupt for fear of something worse happening!
BTW only Michael and the shapeshifter have a specific action (holding out the hand) that accompanies the use of power. I wonder if it is to help them focus their energy? Or perhaps it is simply a dramatic motion for effect? Sigh. It would be nice to have significance behind some of these seemingly meaningless theatrics!
LSS
08-07-2000 10:30 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856
Originally posted by LSS
You know, your comment made me think back over the season. There are very few times when M/I even see Michael's powers in action. The only times (off the top of my head) that I can remember is the key in 285 South and then in Destiny when he does the hand/killing thingie. Neither of them are around when he fries the window lock, heals River Dog, fries the Jetta engine, etc. He does wave his hand and activate the symbol in Into the Woods with the rest of them though.
Maybe they are just not used to seeing him use his powers. Remember when he holds up his hand and causes the jeep engine to overheat and Max asks him what he did? Almost like even Max doesn't understand Michael's powers.
Come to think of it, we really don't know how much experience they've had with Michael's misadventures. They know he can't control his powers. Makes me wonder what kinds of things he might have attempted in the past... and with what results!
But I am with you...I think I'd have ducked when I saw his arm go up.
08-07-2000 10:44 PM shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 792
Originally posted by LSSI just thought of yet another possibility: TicTac is Tess. The podsters, being hybrids, need a little boost to shapeshift.
...1) Is the tic-tac shapeshifter the same figure that we will later encounter as Mr. Harding?
and...
2) Are we to understand the objects that he ingests as pain killers or energy replacements?
But I also like jenlev's theory of the tictacs being necessary for the alien who was held captive and escaped. Of course, I've often wondered if that was who Tess really was anyway.
But I disagree with those who think that TicTac has proven himself compassionate. We don't know motives for killing Hank (see below) or smiling at Liz & Max.
I also think Harding is the more graceful shapeshifter.
And then we have that whole army of orbsters at the end of Destiny that could be shapeshifters.
Oh, and I've often suggested that RiverDog is TicTac the Shaman. Maybe RD was even an earlier edition of podster.
Originally posted by LSSMy daughter and I think that Hank was killed because he knew too much, that protecting Michael was secondary at most. And, again, I like jenlev's theory--that the tortured sounds were the result of inept killing. Of course later on in Destiny Tess appears to not know about the deep-frying (sorry ), which could rule out my theory of her being tictac.
3) What of those inhuman sounds reported coming from the trailer? It is one thing to kill to protect Michael. It is quite another to torture one's victim.
Oh, my daughter thinks the tortured sounds were actually sounds of fear--a kind of emotional torture--like Hank seeing the shapeshifter turning into himself (Hank) just before offing him.
Originally posted by LSSDefinitely some of the best crying I've seen on T.V.
The Michael we see sobbing in the rain in Independence Day is all too human.
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-07-2000 at 10:52 PM]
08-2000 02:31 AM pixiedude
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 133
Originally posted by Kim648I've assumed that the driver was human, because he didn't react when Micheal took out 2 of the alien stones.
I think the driver wasn't Tictac. He doesn't really act like Tictac, more like Harding. Also, I think they showed what happened here to show how Michael couldn't go through with it. I think it was more than the comment that aliens would want to live here. If it was Tictac, I think he would act more like...oh, your a young boy, why are you running away for?
08-2000 02:47 AM pixiedude
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 133
Originally posted by shapeshifterIn 4 Square, Tess tells the other podsters that podsters can't shapeshift, because they were born (or emerged) with human bodies. It's still possible that she's a shapeshifter rather than a true podster, or that she was lying about their abilities, although it seems like if the podsters could shapeshift, they would have stumbled across this ability by accident by now.
I just thought of yet another possibility: TicTac is Tess. The podsters, being hybrids, need a little boost to shapeshift.
08-2000 03:37 AM jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 293 hi there,
the nasedo/tic-tac issue seems like the 'hide the pea in a cup game'... just when you think you know where (who/which) it is...it turns out to be somewhere (someone) different.
i may be off base, but i seem to recall that the fbi originally had two aliens in captivity... one escaped, the other was kept for three years. i expect that either shapeshifter would be a tad squirrely. after all they lived through the 'enslavelment' of their planet- and all that entailed.
then they had to deal with arriving on earth by crashing, subsequent capture and about fifty years of exile/stranding.
anyway, is it hard to measure the depth of their dysfunction or pathology given the fact that the charactors are supposed to be truly 'alien' in nature? (given the amount of context that the writers have offered up?)
jenlev
08-2000 06:00 AM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Karst : Way back, when I said Tic-tac was more functional than Harding, I was not referring to his physical shapeshifting abilities, but in how he carries out his role-playing. After the Hankocide, he showed up with a reasonable story, a good reason for leaving, and even acted like Hank. (I still think "I'm already gone" was a cute touch.) Valenti said Dr. Margolin spent the morning in his office talking to him, and he had convinced the sheriff of who he was. If the fire had not happened, he would not have been discovered. Which brings up another point...
I know this will be discussed when we do "Crazy", but T-t knew Topolsky was in the hospital, knew who her doctor was (even saw him, heard his vioce, etc), knew her diagnosis, and that she had escaped (or been allowed to escape). When he talked to the group in the woods, he told them they had already picked her up and she was on her way back to the hospital. Then we see her being caught by Pierce's men. How did he know? It would have blown everything if she had shown up again later that night to one of the group. He was very sure of her being picked up. He is clued in somehow. Hmmm.
Tic-tac still gives me the warm fuzzies, with his gentle, calming ways (when not killing). Harding is good for a chuckle with his quirkiness and unpredictability. Definately two people (or two writers).
[Edited by Palomino on 08-2000 at 06:04 AM]
08-2000 06:12 AM ElizabethinTexas
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 59 This is my first post on a SCI-FI thread so behr with me. I think Tic-Tac is the better of the shapeshifters...he seems almost fatherly as the rancher at the end of SH when he tells Liz and Max to get on home. And I also think that he was the one who left the message in the Frazier Woods in ITTW.
LSS--About Liz, Alex, and Maria being apart of the alien family. I think, yes, they are/will be apart of that family because they have kept and actively hidden the alien trio's secret almost to the detriment (sp?) to their own lives. That, IMO, is what family is...just think back to what Alex said in anger to Liz in HW...that she was the only one besides his parents he would trust with his life, and that was why her betrayal hurt so much. I think that the three muskateers have proven time and time again they felt the same way about the three podsters.
Also, I am curious about the oh-so-prevalent use of tic-tacs (possible pain/energy boosters?) by Tic-Tac shapeshifter. It is really pointed out by the writers when he does this, but yet Edsedo is never once seen doing the same...curious.
When Isabel strikes out at Michael as he walks away to leave Roswell, its like she is trying to get a rise out of him to make him stay...Isabel's brand of child psychology maybe? God, I hope these questions of ours are answered in the upcoming season because my brain is starting to hurt. Then you guys come onto these threads and make me think even more, and I am about to go into overload.
Sorry for the incessant rambling.
Beth
08-2000 07:09 AM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364
Originally posted by ElizabethinTexasHi ET (Elizabethin Texas)!
LSS--About Liz, Alex, and Maria being apart of the alien family. I think, yes, they are/will be apart of that family because they have kept and actively hidden the alien trio's secret almost to the detriment (sp?) to their own lives. That, IMO, is what family is...
Also, I am curious about the oh-so-prevalent use of tic-tacs (possible pain/energy boosters?) by Tic-Tac shapeshifter. It is really pointed out by the writers when he does this, but yet Edsedo is never once seen doing the same...curious.
Beth
Welcome to the SF threads as poster! Some comments on your observations:
1) There is one time when Max/Nesedo eats cotton candy right before he uses his powers (MTTM; no pain killer here but maybe energy replancement) but you are right--usully he does it without any "aids."
2) I agree with you about our podsters' relationships to the humans. Bonds of common experience often cement relationships in ways similar to that of blood. Someone asked me for a question to ask JB at an interview. I told them to ask whether the humans would be a help or a hinderance in their discovery of their alien heritage. JB responded by saying that it was the humans who had helped the aliens discover who they were and that they would continue to be a important part of the process. So it sounds like family it is--albeit not without its squabbles and difficulties!!!
LSS
08-2000 09:35 AM SunStar
Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 42 Independence Day is one of my favorite episodes. For a sci-fi show to integrate an issue of domestic violence into it was great. Not to mention Fehr's acting. He's a good actor. But this is about the sci-fi of the episode. I don't post often as you can see. I'm usually a lurker and I love reading all your posts, but something bugs me about this Nasedo thing.
First, I don't think Tess is a shape shifter. There is something about her, but she's just another alien (evil or good though?). She just doesn't seem to fit the good equation. I don't think we got the full story on her yet.
Second, as I've posted before, I really think Pierce is (was) one of those "evil aliens". I think his body is eventually going to be discovered and I really think something is going to come up about that.
Third, you have to remember that the show totally changed direction in the last 6 episodes. Things I thought they were planning to do have changed. For example, anyone who has a tape of blind date, look at the guy walking away at the end. The one who is supposed to be Nasedo. He looks just like Pierce. I know he can shapeshift, but he does look like Pierce. And who, if anyone, would want these kids dead more than their enemy aliens who are here on earth? Pierce fits the bill and shape shifting to the key FBI agent of Area 51 would be the perfect cover for him. As for ID, maybe the second shape shifter (who I think was Pierce) killed Hank trying to get information from him about Michael. Sounds stupid, but it is possible.
Just my thoughts.
08-2000 12:13 PM NaiveYetChubby
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 137 I never really thought about the differences between the first shapeshifter and Harding before reading the theories on this board but after watching the reruns and paying closer attention I definitely think they're two different beings entirely. I don't know how I didn't notice some of the things before (like the tic tacs) because I usually dissect everything I watch. The only thing I thought originally was that the man who picked up Michael toward the end was Nasedo. But watching it for the second time, I think I was analyzing that scene too much. Here's what I think: The alien at the end of Blind Date is "Tic-tac", and was *possibly* Doug, Liz's dream guy. I don't think there was anything sinister about him burning the picture of the Pod Squad at the end of the ep ... I think it's just the weird way he is, something he would do just for the hell of watching something burn. Kind of like Bronson Pinchot's character in Stephen King's "The Langoliers" with the way he would sit there and shred pieces of paper... he just has a thing about fire perhaps? Anyway, I think that same alien was the one who left the signal for them in the woods, and was the one who helped them find the orb in Sexual Healing. I did think that the shapeshifter in Crazy was the same as in the previous episodes, but now that I think about it, his inadvertantly or intentionally doing away with Topolsky doesn't fit with the way he was, IMO. The shapeshifter in the previous eps, I think realizes that some humans can be trusted and I think he would find Topolsky at least an ally if not a totally helpful individual in the state she was in. So I don't think he would have had her killed. I don't know if that shapeshifter had the tic-tacs in that episode, but if he didn't, I'd bet that the shapeshifter in Crazy was Harding. He seems less sensitive toward people (humans and aliens alike) than the previous shapeshifter. From there on out I think the shapeshifter we see is all Harding. I think "Tic-Tac" was the Nasedo that River Dog knew and the one that was captured by the Special Unit for 3 years. I did miss most of The White Room, so I'm not sure about the details of that, however. Can someone fill me in on what Pierce said regarding the alien they had captured?
I think Harding was the alien that killed Hubble's wife. If the killing of Atherton was completely heartless, I'd say it was Harding as well, but I think there's a possibility that it was "Tic-tac" that maybe tried to save him and ended up killing him instead. Maybe he was having a heart attack or something and Tic-tac tried to heal him
but messed up. Maybe has has as hard a time healing people as he does shapeshifting.
As for the tic-tac popping... I'm not so sure, but I would go with the habit theory... like people smoke or drink. It seems as quirkish as the tobasco thing with the Pod Squad. I have further theories about Tess, Harding, "Tic-Tac", Topolsky, Pierce, etc. but I'm working on a fan fic that deals with it now so I don't want to get into it.
08-2000 02:34 PM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364
Originally posted by NaiveYetChubbyHi NaiveYetChubby!
Can someone fill me in on what Pierce said regarding the alien they had captured?
....
As for the tic-tac popping... I'm not so sure, but I would go with the habit theory... like people smoke or drink. It seems as quirkish as the tobasco thing with the Pod Squad. I have further theories about Tess, Harding, "Tic-Tac", Topolsky, Pierce, etc. but I'm working on a fan fic that deals with it now so I don't want to get into it.
The transcript for The White Room is up on the episode page at Crashdown.com (for the link go to the main page at Crashdown.com). You can read the whole thing at your leisure!
As for the tic/tacs as quirkish--since our aliens like sweet and spicy I guess you could say that this shapeshifter likes his nefarious activities "sweet and cruel"!!!!!
(ouch...)
LSS
08-2000 03:36 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 I was driving along today thinking about ID and something occurred to me...
Twice now Michael seems to have been drawn to Maria in inclement weather... during the heat wave and in the rain. I wonder if unusual weather has anything to do with his emotional state of being. (jk )
08-2000 04:02 PM Reggie
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 149
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960The tic-tacs: We've seen how the aliens are more susceptable to drugs: Michael, and the original Nasedo, to the smoke of The Sweat; and Max to a sip of alchohol (BD). Consider wintergreen tic-tacs: the wintergreen flavor is (IIRC) methyl salicylate, also used in linement. It's a mild pain reliever, related to aspirin. Perhaps tic-tacs give a strong pain relief for aliens?
Just a few quick comments.
I do think there are two Nasedo's. However, my theory about the tictacs that Tictac pops is a little more... boring. I think it may just be a habit he aquired...like smoking or chewing gum. He was really pooped before he shapeshifted into Herder Man because he had just buried a guy in record time. Maybe the tictacs relax him... like a good smoke after...well, never mind. I don't think he tortured Hank for the fun of it. I agree that he probably was trying to get info on how much Hank knew about Michael. The torture was either very well done (no marks) or was below the face. I don't think Harding would have been as elegant.
Hank's torture: we know that Harding can do the hand-cannon thing, like Michael; we see them do it in WR. Perhaps Tic-tac can do the forced hallucination thing, like Tess? Giving Hank a taste of his own medicine, rather than slow-cooking him...
08-2000 04:11 PM Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 Lorrelei1960 and LSS:
You're comments on Max and Isabel in the trailer when Michael's powers go beserk are too funny. Yeah, I would have ducked for cover too!
Max/Isabel probably knew it wasn't a good time to play turtle (whoever coined that term--kudos!). They were trying to figure out what the heck Michael was trying to do so that they could anticipate a possible rafter falling down or something.
I know I'm in the minority here, but I actually thought Michael did an adequate job with his powers. (NOT PERFECT) I sort of got the feeling that what he was trying to do was "something new" for him and maybe next time he'll do better.
In the previous thread I speculated that Michael just wasn't properly balanced to use his powers, seeing has ITTW he can heal without any difficultly. I still like this idea, that an upset in balance would cause chaos. But I also realize the Max has struggled too. In Convention, he really struggles to be telekentic. I wonder if it's much, much harder if there is no "connection" to a person or object.
Poor Michael-- I hope he get's if figured out. He runs so hot and cold. No wonder he booted Maria away from him.
From Nebraska!
Qfanny.
08-2000 04:11 PM Karst
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 212
Originally posted by PalominoPalomino: I kind of hesitated over "functional" and finally went for the physical side. But you're right, I think, about the social part. Harding was pretty good talking to the sheriff about the spy camera he had found, though maybe a bit of a ham. All his other scenes speak for themelves.
Karst : Way back, when I said Tic-tac was more functional than Harding, I was not referring to his physical shapeshifting abilities, but in how he carries out his role-playing. After the Hankocide, he showed up with a reasonable story, a good reason for leaving, and even acted like Hank. (I still think "I'm already gone" was a cute touch.) Valenti said Dr. Margolin spent the morning in his office talking to him, and he had convinced the sheriff of who he was. If the fire had not happened, he would not have been discovered. Which brings up another point...
I know this will be discussed when we do "Crazy", but T-t knew Topolsky was in the hospital, knew who her doctor was (even saw him, heard his vioce, etc), knew her diagnosis, and that she had escaped (or been allowed to escape). When he talked to the group in the woods, he told them they had already picked her up and she was on her way back to the hospital. Then we see her being caught by Pierce's men. How did he know? It would have blown everything if she had shown up again later that night to one of the group. He was very sure of her being picked up. He is clued in somehow. Hmmm.
As for being clued in: I kind of thought T-T had found the trio to start with by somehow getting the info from the FBI. (And probably Harding did too.) Since T-T seemed friendly, I tend towards the idea he stole something from agents or an office, or maybe read minds. We don't know enough to say what his capabilities are beyond shapeshifting (and presumably other stuff Harding does - but we can't even be sure of that). The photo at the end of BD looked like something you'd use to show an agent who to follow. It was clear, had the three, didn't have extra details in it. I kind of figured T-T had stolen the picture as part of his info gathering. Once he was sure who M/M/I were, he didn't need the picture anymore. (The symbol, especially Isabel's way of hiding it, would have proven he had the right kids.) Of course, his method of disposal was a bit melodramatic. But he seems to travel light, and once he didn't need a picture to help him locate the three, I'd doubt he'd keep it. (Travel light - maybe another difference between him and Harding with all his wordly goods.)
Maybe T-T is impersonating an FBI agent? But then why didn't he show up in WR to help rescue Max? After being so clued in (by whatever means), he is mysteriously out of the loop.
08-2000 04:20 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 Karst - I agree that if it was Tictac who had the photo, and now knew for sure the identity of the podsters, he would distroy the evidence. This fits his role as protector. Harding, on the other hand, had a box full of photos of Max. He knew who Max was when he came in to town. (or perhaps they were Tess's, given her fixation on him )
08-2000 06:07 PM shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 792
Originally posted by PalominoHadn't thought about the 2 writers. Maybe someone like Nemo would know who wrote The Adventures of TicTac and who wrote The Exploits of Ed Harding.
...Tic-tac ... gentle, calming ways (when not killing).
Harding ... quirkiness and unpredictability.
Definately two people (or two writers)...
Also:
Originally posted byNaiveYetChubby
The alien at the end of Blind Date is "Tic-tac", and was *possibly* Doug, Liz's dream guy.
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Hadn't thought about this either, just noticed the silhouette had more hair than Harding--Dog Boy did have the right hair. Is it choreographically possible? I mean, could Doug have been in that place at that time? If it was supposed to be him, they should have made it more clear. But then maybe they had plans to reveal it more gradually, and then took that story line elsewhere (e.g. Harding & Tess & the box of pictures).
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-2000 at 06:09 PM]
08-2000 06:35 PM Jamethiel
Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 14 My two cents on the Tic-Tac, Harding puzzle is that Tic-Tac is an "injured" alien. He takes the time to dig a hole to stick Hank into (if he can rearrange molecules like the others, why not make Hank a pile of sand or rocks?). He seems to move slowly, almost painfully. In fact, the Hank killing alien, RiverDog, and the "Rancher" that discovers Liz & Max at the end of Sexual Healing, all move as though in pain. Harding & Pierce/Nasedo & Max/Nasedo all move with a "bounce." I liked the idea posted above that "TicTacs" might be alien aspirin...makes sense to me!
Along with the notes on the use of color in ID, note that Hank/TicTac is "blue" throughout the show...and Sheriff Valenti is "red." The Metz books indicated the aliens could see an "aura" but that hasn't been mentioned in the show. Could it be that the lighting is a deliberate attempt to define the two factions surrounding the podsters through the warm/cold associations to blue/red?
I don't know how to put this into words...exactly but both fire and ice can kill. Both aren't inherently evil or good...just different ways of changing state and that seems to be the way I feel about TicTac vs. Harding. TicTac could be helpful to our podsters but he could also be an alien that tortures humans before he kills them. (Whether he does it intentionally or accidently, if he knows he could kill, the inherent coldness is well...inhuman). On the other hand, Harding kills "coldly" without mercy, without emotion, without second thought...and yet he managed to rescue Max...so who is more evil? more inhuman?
08-2000 06:42 PM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Shapeshifter : I was just thinking about that box of photos you mentioned. If nasEDo Harding has never left Tess alone for long, and she just turned up, Harding didn't have the time to follow them around and take a whole box load of pictures. Since Tic-tac has been around longer (maybe living in Roswell all this time), he would have had time to snap the photos. We also don't know how far back they go. What if T-t had been watching from a distance or intermittantly and taking the photos, and dropped them off at nasEDo's house for Tess to practice her pucker?
One thing that tends to make me think this is how randomly they were just thrown in the box. This kind of a laid-back Tic-tac thing to do. nasEDo is more the neat "Put them in envelops, DON'T bend the corners!" type of guy.
Reggie : Good idea on the pain killers being something mild as TicTacs to us, but strong and effective to them. I remember Max being totally incapacitated when they drugged him in WR. Pierce was angry because this was not the desired effect. With that and BD, as you mentioned, it would seem that at least the podsters and probably the adults (pure aliens) are very easily drugged. Maybe a Tylenol is a mind-altering, addictive drug. (Hmmm ... maybe someone should look in Harding's medicine cabinet. Could explain alot.)
[Edited by Palomino on 08-2000 at 06:56 PM]
08-2000 06:43 PM tanchel
Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 47 Geez, I so glad I understand the whole Tic-Tac reference now! I joined the boards too late last season to get it, and I was the village idiot last night, shrieking "TIC TAC" at the top of my lungs while my friend stared in horror.
Now that I understand, I agree completely: this is *not* the same alien as Nasedo. The shapeshifting characteristics are too different, the timing is off somehow (if this were our Nasedo, where's Tess? I always thought those two were basically inseparable.).
The only thing that really bothered me about this episode was Michael's "flashbacks" at the end. He sees only visions of Max and Isabel, and you'd think that after running to Maria for refuge, she'd figure into these visions as well. It shows me that he still doesn't consider humans to be part of his family at this point, and it does offer a depressing answer to LSS's question about Liz, Alex, and Maria figuring into the family. I'm optimistic that by Destiny, Michael's opinion of humans has changed, but it's yet another reason I get frustrated with Michael sometimes.
The interactions between Isabel and Michael did lend themselves to some Destiny inklings. Of course, hindsight is everything, and I don't want my knowledge of their former-life betrothal to color my perceptions of stuff earlier in the season.
Enough rambling....
08-2000 10:00 PM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 ORIGINALLY POSTED BY SHAPESHIFTER :
Originally posted by Palomino
...Tic-tac ... gentle, calming ways (when not killing).
Harding ... quirkiness and unpredictability.
Definately two people (or two writers)...
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Hadn't thought about the 2 writers. Maybe someone like Nemo would know who wrote The Adventures of TicTac and who wrote The Exploits of Ed Harding.
Shapeshifter : Little things like this actually bug me, so I looked up who wrote each episode. Here's what I found out:
TIC-TAC appearences:
#15 ID Toni Graphia
#16 SH Jan Oxenberg
#17 CZ Thania St. John
nasEDo HARDING appearences:
#18 TLV Richard Whitley, Toni Graphia
#19 4sq Thania St. John
#20 M2M Toni Graphia
#21 WR Jason Katims, Thania St. John
#22 DST Toni Graphia, Jason Katims, Thania St. John
Since it is a pretty good mix of writers that penned the appearances of both, it would seem the differences between characters is not an accident or a change of writers between episodes #17 and #18. Apparently they have made sure there are two shapeshifters through the story arcs.
Jametheil: The red/blue contrasts are very interesting. I've noticed the whirlwind symbol is always done in blue and the Saturn one has been done in fire (it is also on the book, which looks like it has been exposed to heat - like copper changing colors.) I also noticed on the cave drawing in the Balance that the healing stones were plced in a V by Michael, with the whirlwind at the top of the left side and the Saturn at the top of the right side. If the V could be symbolic of two opposing forces coming to Earth to fight over the podsters(bottom center of the V), is the Saturn symbol representative of the evil aliens, and did Michael call them by accident on the library lawn?
What kind of car was Tic-tac driving in "Crazy"? Could it have been .....a Saturn?
08-2000 10:59 PM shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 792
Originally posted by tanchelNo on the hot sauce for tess. but I have no problem buying her as a full-on podster. I do think the tic-tac affinity man's identity is up for grabs.
Geez, I so glad I understand the whole Tic-Tac reference now! I joined the boards too late last season to get it, and I was the village idiot last night, shrieking "TIC TAC" at the top of my lungs while my friend stared in horror.
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tanchel, I don't know exactly why, but that tickles my funny bone--and it's the only real laugh in an otherwise stress-filled day.
Palomino, thanks for doing that research! It was bugging me too--sometimes it's just 'give me the facts,' if you know what I mean.
So, we are about 99% sure the tictac/harding differentiation was intended--but they could still drop it next season.
Re the colors: it's been posted on other threads that harding shifts in a yellow light and tictac in a blue light. Hmmm..red shifts and blue shifts of astronomy...probably no connection--don't think the writers are trying to speak that language as the common denominator would be ridiculous.
But Nemo had a theory that he carefully documented and supported with a progression of colors in the eps from green (go) to yellow (caution) to red (stop). Very interesting even if not consciously intended. Uh-oh, here I go again on my parallel Roswell universe thinking...
Then there were the individually colored "auras" in the Rosewell High books...z-z-z-z-z
that reminds me: do shapeshifters sleep? In the books MMI only sleep 2 hours per night. They should have used that in the TV show--it would have explained a lot of the sneaking around parentless stuff.
08-09-2000 04:03 AM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 Shapeshifter : Interesting question about whether SSers sleep too. Tess never said, if she knew, and so far none of the podsters' sleep requirements has been documented either. In the Earth-animal kingdom, it is generally the predators that sleep the most (cats - 23hrs.), and the prey animals that require the least (horses - 3hrs.)
08-09-2000 05:51 AM pixiedude
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 133 Hello earlybirds!
My thoughts about ID:
1) Did anyone get a good look at the sign on the inside of the men's room door where Max confronts Micheal towards the beginning? There's a poster with a cartoon drawing and the words Whose Looks Think Cooks? (question mark is after Cooks), plus some other words. There was one clear shot of it after it closed behind Max, then the camera shifts, and Max blocks part of it.
2)Another time anomaly, though I don't think it was intentional: the legal procedure for Micheal to become an emancipated minor would have taken weeks, at least. The state department in charge of foster children would have had to do a report on him, there would have been a delay while a court date was being set, and yet...Micheal clears the legal hurdles before Hank's corpse has begun to rot! Unless ttNasedo has irradiated him, the way irradiating meat is supposed to work, so that the decay process is arrested.
3) It's not sci-fi, but the most affecting emotional parts to me were between Maria and her mother, particularly when Amy DeLuca was telling Maria how she didn't want Maria to repeat her own mistakes. Perhaps I am more critical of Micheal now than when I first saw ID, but as the season wore on, his involvement with Maria became more like that of an abusive partner who uses displays of vulnerability to keep Maria from leaving him.
08-09-2000 12:31 PM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364Originally posted by PalominoYou know, we know very little about the sleeping/eating habits of Nesedo -- but it just occured to me that when he was wolfing down those mash potatoes and fried chicken he never once stoped to put
Shapeshifter : Interesting question about whether SSers sleep too. Tess never said, if she knew, and so far none of the podsters' sleep requirements has been documented either.
Tobasco sauce on them did he? I wonder--is that dietary quirk is simply an offshoot of the genetic engineering that produced the podsters? In the books, of course, it is something that the podsters share with the collective cons. and thus is a truly "alien" trait -- but in the books they can shapeshift too...so....who knows?
LSS
08-09-2000 05:04 PM Starstruck
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 82 I don't think that Tic Tac and Harding are the same shapeshifter either. Perhaps if Tic Tac were the alien held in captivity for 3 years something within him was damaged (altered) requiring him to pop (tic tac's) medication to balance him. Pierce tells Max in WR that the drugs they gave him suppressed his abilies. Perhaps permanent damage could have been done to TicTac.
About Tic Tac being the driver of the truck. It always bothered me that the truck pulls over for Michael sseemingly before he would have been clearly visable (he is sitting at the time and is not indicating that he's looking for a ride at this moment.) It's as if the driver was specifically looking for him.
Pixidude- I thought maybe the driver could have been TicTac BECAUSE he didn't ask about the stones. If I was the driver of the truck, and human I would have been nosey and asked, hey what are those? Michael does roll them in his hands which surely would have drawn my attention to them.
LSS- if you use the slow motion while watching Max/nascedo eat the cotton candy you'll see he doesn't actually eat it, and I've always wanted to know why. Had they just shot this scene so many times that Jason was just sick of eating cotton candy or is ther a hidden meaning?
Palomino- So, Tic Tac and NasEDo working together via the photo's? Hmmm interesting.
This is my first venture on the science fiction board. Lots of great ideas.
08-09-2000 05:39 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856Originally posted by pixiedudeYikes! That's pretty harsh. I may a bit prejudiced because Michael is one of my favorite characters, but I don't think he's really that manipulative. It's hard to look at because we may be overprotective of Maria who seems to be so terribly vulnerable.
It's not sci-fi, but the most affecting emotional parts to me were between Maria and her mother, particularly when Amy DeLuca was telling Maria how she didn't want Maria to repeat her own mistakes. Perhaps I am more critical of Micheal now than when I first saw ID, but as the season wore on, his involvement with Maria became more like that of an abusive partner who uses displays of vulnerability to keep Maria from leaving him.
Again, not sci-fi, but...
What I got out of that scene (and it was a very revealing scene) was that Momma Deluca has had a lot of messy relationships. That makes me wonder how many "uncles" Maria has had who have also walked out of her life after she became attatched. It's no wonder that abandonment is a really big issue for her. (grrrr to the writer's who had Michael also abandon her! )
08-09-2000 06:03 PM Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281Originally posted by StarstruckThat's exactly why I thought the driver was a S.S. too. glad you posted this Starstuck.
About Tic Tac being the driver of the truck. It always bothered me that the truck pulls over for Michael sseemingly before he would have been clearly visable (he is sitting at the time and is not indicating that he's looking for a ride at this moment.) It's as if the driver was specifically looking for him.
Pixidude- I thought maybe the driver could have been TicTac BECAUSE he didn't ask about the stones. If I was the driver of the truck, and human I would have been nosey and asked, hey what are those? Michael does roll them in his hands which surely would have drawn my attention to them.
Tanchel- I have a confession, I forgot about the TicTacs at one point too. There's a lot of Roswell slang out there. Now, if someone would just explain why Deputy Owen and River Dog are considered "hot" I'll be happy.
As far as Michael/Maria relationship going that badly-- I don't see it. Certainly Michael is having a hard time, but he does care about Maria. He's probably never had a "functional" relationship before in his life. But he does have character, like refusing to tell Valenti were he was the night he spent with Maria.
From Nebraska
Qfanny
08-09-2000 08:26 PM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 LSS : About them eating:
1. Harding at the dinner table still did not want Liz to know who they were, so the Tobasco might have stayed in the kitchen.
2. Harding might like sweets. He got a cotton candy at the carnival, and he's been around long enough to know what Earth-foods he likes. (You know, Tic-tac would have bought a second cotton candy for Liz. Ooo! Ooo! Symbolism again! Fresh Cotton Candy. Harding didn't give her warm fuzzies! )
3. We have seen Tess enjoying sugar, but not Tobasco.....?......significant?
4. We have seen the podsters eating, but not in Harding quantities.
08-09-2000 08:42 PM tanchel
Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45 Qfanny: River Dog and Deputy Owen...nope don't see it. Well, okay, maybe River Dog, but I couldn't give a coherent reason for it.
Shapeshifter: I'm glad my lunatic behavior made yesterday a bit more bearable. It didn't help any that I was wearing a Roswell t-shirt at the time, so I'll be committed any day now.
Michael and Maria: Lorrilei pointed out the high probability that Maria's had a series of 'uncles' in her life, and I'd think Hank's pattern with women was probably more of the "boink 'em and forget 'em" variety. Neither scenario allows for examples of functional relationships. Gotta give M&M credit for trying even when it looks like the odds are against them.
Interesting idea about the truck driver being a SS. Yeah, some kid playing with big cbunks of amber would have caught my eye too. But now I'm losing count of SSs. Pierce said there were 2 aliens captured from the crash, and we know(?) that Nasedo escaped, and we're unclear on Tic-Tac. Could it be there is a third, unacknowledged alien, maybe one who actually hid the pods in the cave? We still don't know how the pods got to the cave in that initial confusion after the crash.
Well, crap, just when I was feeling all caught up...
08-09-2000 09:07 PM LAR
Fan Registered: Aug 2000 Posts: 2 Drawn out of lurking to offer a few thoughts on Nasedo Harding vs. Tic-Tac. I think Tic-Tac was the alien tortured and possibly killed by the FBI special unit. Perhaps Nasedo Harding, who is presumably the alien escapee, used the stones to bring him back. Someone mentioned the box of pictures Harding had in TLV. Presumably the real Ed Harding was involved with the army or FBI in some way, before Nasedo assumed his identity. That would explain why he was so reluctant to make contact with M/M/I, and became upset when Isabel showed up at their house unexpectedly - he didn't want to draw attention to them. Maybe Nasedo Harding has remained in contact with Tic-Tac, and gave him the picture so he could track the podsters down without arousing suspicion. Tic-Tac burned the picture to destroy the evidence.
08-09-2000 11:25 PM pixiedude
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130Originally posted by LSSWe know Tess shares the other podsters' sweet tooth, but have we ever seen her reach for the hot sauce? I don't recall seeing her eat anything hot.
You know, we know very little about the sleeping/eating habits of Nesedo -- but it just occured to me that when he was wolfing down those mash potatoes and fried chicken he never once stoped to putWe know Tess shares the other podsters' sweet tooth, but have we ever seen her reach for the hot sauce? I don't recall seeing her eat anything hot.
Tobasco sauce on them did he? (snip)
LSS
08-09-2000 11:27 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 I don't know that Tictac and Harding were working together. They seem to be at odds in whatever they're doing. Harding/Nasedo was definitely not keeping a low profile when he set out to lure Pierce to him. One of them has a penchant for killing via silver iron-on, and since we've seen Harding/Nasedo do this, we could assume that it's been him. If there are two, which one killed Shiela Hubble? Which one killed Atherton? Lots of dangling threads here....
08-09-2000 11:29 PM anothertrinity
Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 12
08-09-2000 11:35 PM NaiveYetChubby
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 129Originally posted by Lorrilei1960I think it's safe to assume that Harding was the one who killed Hubble, since Liz got the flashes of her dead body when she kissed him thinking he was Max. Unless Tic-tac killed her and Harding saw it or something which I doubt because the nature of the flashes were very dark and disturbing, not as though he was innocent of the crime ... and it just seems more like something Harding would do than Tic-tac for some reason.
I don't know that Tictac and Harding were working together. They seem to be at odds in whatever they're doing. Harding/Nasedo was definitely not keeping a low profile when he set out to lure Pierce to him. One of them has a penchant for killing via silver iron-on, and since we've seen Harding/Nasedo do this, we could assume that it's been him. If there are two, which one killed Shiela Hubble? Which one killed Atherton? Lots of dangling threads here....
08-10-2000 12:00 AM NaiveYetChubby
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 129 Slightly new theory on my part... What if Tic-Tac and Harding are on complete opposite sides of the camp? Tic-Tac seems more caring toward humans than Harding. After Tic-Tac somehow escaped, he met up with Harding but they clashed about something, maybe how to go about their "destinies" (I hate that word now...), and they went their own ways, coming across each other once in a while. I figure maybe Harding was watching the Pod Squad for a while, and knew exactly who they were but didn't tell Tic-Tac, who had been searching for them. They bump into each other somewhere down the line and Tic-Tac finds some of the photos that Harding had kept from him. He takes one without telling Harding that he's on to him and attempts to contact M/I/M to make sure it's really them. When Michael and Isabel leave the symbol at the library for him, he realizes he's right and burns the pic because he doesn't need it anymore. Maybe that's where the debatable sinister feel of the scene comes from... not his hostility toward M/M/I, but toward Harding because of his deception. Meanwhile, Harding is unaware Tic-Tac knows who the Podsters are. I wonder if maybe there were more than four pods .... Tess, Michael, Isabel, Max and two others, but something malfunctioned with the two other pods and they died. Only the two that died were Tess and Max's mates. Tess was to procreate with another male and Max with another female, but when Harding found Tess he decided she was to be the one that would lead their "people" alongside Max and groomed her to think that way, possibly fabricating the book that Tess pulled out of the wormhole-thing in the library. The message from their mother could be altered or even a complete illusion from either Tess or Harding, or both.
If they do go down the two shapeshifters route, I think it would be very interesting if Harding and Tic-Tac's ideas of life on Earth clashed BIG TIME. I could see Tic-Tac pushing Max toward Liz (or at the very least not pushing him in any direction and telling him to follow his heart instead of what he feels he is bound by duty to do) because he realizes Liz, Maria and Alex all aid in their quest, while Harding remains very anti-human and insists Max and Tess should be together for the good of their race.
08-10-2000 05:31 AM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Starstruck and LAR -- welcome to the SF of [episode] threads!!!
As for the sweet and spicy dietary quirks of our podsters. It is interesting that this is a key background element of our aliens that is notably missing with both of the Hardings. Although the sugar thingie is one of the clues we first have to Tess' identity (TLV) we get no such clue to Ed Harding's.
Of course it could be argued that IF the tic/tacs are an energy replacement then those mounds of mashed potatoes could function in the same way. But still, this is another issue--energy replacement is not a dietary quirk. Maybe it has something to do with the genetically altered metabolism (if we have such) of our podsters? But if so, then Tess should also be slugging Tabasco.
[BTW--I now buy V-8 Berry splash and drink it regularly...how more Roswellian can you get?]
LSS
08-10-2000 03:26 PM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325Originally posted by NaiveYetChubbyIF there are two shapeshifters, then I think your idea of them being in opposite camps is plausible. Your theory posits a falling out between the two on tactics, etc.
What if Tic-Tac and Harding are on complete opposite sides of the camp? Tic-Tac seems more caring toward humans than Harding. After Tic-Tac somehow escaped, he met up with Harding but they clashed about something, maybe how to go about their "destinies" (I hate that word now...), and they went their own ways, coming across each other once in a while.
....
If they do go down the two shapeshifters route, I think it would be very interesting if Harding and Tic-Tac's ideas of life on Earth clashed BIG TIME.
Another idea might be collaboration with the FBI. You know--I have been very uncomfortable with the ss's timing in "Crazy". He seems to be operating with an awful lot of what might be termed "insider" information. I have no problem theoretically with the idea that he might have "turned" while being held captive (i.e. he is now working with the FBI). But as a theory it falls apart when we consider Hank's death (of which I cannot come up with a plausible reason for why the FBI would be interested)!
Perhaps you are right in looking for the seeds of dissent in some internal problem between the two. Then again maybe we have here two species of alien shapeshifters (which I do not like logically at all). Or maybe representatives from warring factions of the same species? But this latter jars a bit with the momogram.
Sigh...two more months and counting.
LSS
08-10-2000 11:39 PM shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605Originally posted by LSSLSS, why do you think this clashes with the Momo message? I often think all the shapeshifters have "evil within," but are you referring to something else?
...Or maybe [we have shapeshifters who are] representatives from warring factions of the same species? But this latter jars a bit with the momogram.
And, as you prepare for the Sci Fi of SH, you might want to consider this tidbit from the end of the script:
LIZ: Ok, so what you're saying is that you saved me from a life of watching Kyle barf.
MAX: Liz Parker...I don't think that was ever gonna be your destiny.
LIZ: No?
MAX: No.
LIZ: Ok. Fine. If you know so much, then tell me, Max...what's my destiny?
MAX: I only know the part I'm hoping for.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
08-11-2000 12:23 AM NaiveYetChubby
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 129Originally posted by LSSI don't think it jars with the "Momogram" at all. The warring factions thing is precisely what I was thinking. Perhaps when the enemies that enslaved their planet began to take over, their people were conflicted about how to handle it. Max, as he was on his home planet, wanted to try to handle it peacefully without bloodshed, while others wanted to go at them with both barrels. Harding could have been of the latter group, which would fit with his personality here, wanting to eliminate the bad guy before the bad guy had a chance to eliminate them, while Tic-Tac was a loyal follower of Max's. They butted heads on the home planet, but when M/I/M/T were killed and "duplicated" to be sent to Earth, Harding was sent along to look out for them as far as helping them to survive goes, while Tic-Tac, reluctantly having to work with Harding, was sent to help protect them in other ways, to teach them, nurture them, etc., but ended up having to do some killing in order for them to survive as well.
Perhaps you are right in looking for the seeds of dissent in some internal problem between the two. Then again maybe we have here two species of alien shapeshifters (which I do not like logically at all). Or maybe representatives from warring factions of the same species? But this latter jars a bit with the momogram.
Or perhaps the conflict their mother spoke of had nothing to do with their enemies that are now on earth, but she was referring to the conflict between Harding's people and Max's followers. She says "You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet." That doesn't necessarily mean that the conflict was directly caused by the enslavement. Perhaps Harding and those who shared his views didn't agree with the way Max ran things over-all, and there were small wars between the two groups, keeping Max from realizing the "the enemy" was on its way until it was too late, for his planet and for him. He, along with Tess, Michael and Isabel, died in the conflict, leaving the people open to a takeover. Harding was roped in to save himself and his race, and somewhere along the line he got the idea that with Max having to grow from a boy again here on Earth, he could control him better and things would change for them if they ever freed their planet. Which is why he wouldn't want Tic-Tac to know where the podsters were.
I hope that makes sense. It's late here, and I'm a little less than half way to being asleep.
08-11-2000 01:02 AM overtherainbow31
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 74 ROCKLOWERY: Did the Dodger game interfere for you too? And...I never knew it was on on Saturday...what time, channel, etc.(anyone know?). Oops did I miss it? This is way off the subject here I know, sorry. Go on.
MUCH LUV...OTR31
[Edited by overtherainbow31 on 08-11-2000 at 01:12 AM]
08-11-2000 03:57 AM JanetMG
Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 276 This is OT, so I'll keep it very short. Recently, Joss Whedon said the following about Restless, the season 4 finale of Buffy, "Everything else in that dream means something, every line, every scene, is about something in their lives, except [The Cheese Man]." I would love to disect that episode (in a spoiler-free manner) w/sci fi thread posters. If any of you are Buffy fans and think it would be fun, private message me & maybe we can start a thread over at the Buffy board.
08-11-2000 06:37 AM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 From the script of Destiny:
WOMAN: If you are seeing me now, it means that you are alive and well. I take this form
because it will be familiar to you, and it will help you to understand what I am about to say. You have lived before. You perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet but your essence was duplicated, cloned, and mixed with human genetic materials so that you might be recreated into human beings. My son, you were the beloved leader of our
people. I have sent with you your young bride. My daughter, the man you were betrothed to, and your brother's second-in-command.
ISABEL: Oh my god, Max. Our mother.
WOMAN: Our enemies have come to the Earth. You will know them only by the evil within.
Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my
arms. I live for that moment. Help us. I love you.
*********************************************
You know, I think that you are right. The above quotes do not necessarily indicate another species. It simply mentions a "conflict that enslaved" their planet and a rather nebulous reference to "our enemies".
Oh dear. Here is where the interface of spoiled and unspoiled interacts (and I cannot say anything more on this).
But even without that, it is fair to say that may folk have assumed that we are dealing with two separate species (the oppressed and the oppressors). If there is only one, then that makes a great deal more sense and can explain the actions of the two ss's (one is from each of the fighting factions). If these two (the oppressed and the oppressors) are two different species, then it would have to be as you noted--an internal rift in terms of tactics against the enemy.
LSS
08-11-2000 07:44 AM Karst
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 199 LSS:
It just occured to me as I read your post about what mom said, that she doesn't exactly say they are shapeshifters. I think that came out of an old statement from the WB, which has not always been right about what's going on. And time has passed, and the creators have had more time to decide what the evil aliens will be. Plus, the creators now are not exactly the same as the ones back then.
So maybe the evil aliens are disguised, similarly to the way the podsters are, but can't shift shape? By "similarly," I don't necessarily mean a very similar means was used. Just that, at a minimum, the evil aliens look human on the outside, and maybe to some degree on the inside. Maybe more so even than the podsters.
Anyway, even if shapeshifters were the original idea, holomom is vague enough the current creators could avoid the idea, and people would just forget (if they haven't already) about that little notice from the WB months ago.
08-11-2000 08:20 AM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 LSS : When Mommy said, "You will know them only by the evil within" it makes me wonder who you can't tell them from except for the evil within. Does that mean they are SSers and you can't tell them from other SSers? Not likely I think, because if the home planet sent only a few SSers with the podsters, the podsters would have known them all, and any other SSers on a planet of humans would have to be the enemy. A couple of handscanners or the like, and they're exposed. If the FBI could detect them, the podsters could find a way too. Mommy would not have forseen the crash and the fact that the podsters were not raised by, or at least in contact with, the adult SSers. Anyone who wasn't "family" could be silver-fried. (Is the silver something like teflon, so their hands don't stick?)
What if Mommy meant, "you can't tell then from humans except by the evil within"? This is more likely, concidering they are on a planet of humans with whom the enemy can blend in. Maybe they take over human bodies, or maybe they sythesize human bodies. Maybe Mommy doesn't know alot about them, and that's why she told them to learn all they could. Maybe the podsters will learn a way to tell them apart from humans that the SSers previously didn't know.
In fact, that would get back to why the podsters were given enough human DNA to make them almost indistinguishable from humans. What if the evil aliens have something like Star Trek's tricorders, and they are looking for SSers? M/I/M/T would still have a human haertbeat, temp., respiration, skeletal structure, etc. The enemy, if and when they come to Roswell, might have to work undercover till they are sure who the podsters are. I wonder if they know yet that the podsters are hybrids, or are they looking for pure SSers?
08-11-2000 12:00 PM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325Originally posted by KarstKarst...bingo! I think you very well may be right! Only time will tell, of course, but like you I was struck with just how vague the momogram is!
LSS:
It just occured to me as I read your post about what mom said, that she doesn't exactly say they are shapeshifters. ....
Anyway, even if shapeshifters were the original idea, holomom is vague enough the current creators could avoid the idea, and people would just forget (if they haven't already) about that little notice from the WB months ago.
LSS
08-11-2000 01:00 PM Reggie
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126Originally posted by LSSWell, you can get V-8 "Spicy" flavor. Or you can get regular V-8, and add hot sauce to taste. I prefer Frank's Hot Sauce, or Louisiana Crystal, to Tabasco Sauce though. Frank's has a much better flavor! Yum!
[BTW--I now buy V-8 Berry splash and drink it regularly...how more Roswellian can you get?]
LSS
08-11-2000 01:54 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 I've also often wondered if the beings that enslaved the podster's planet were alien to their race, or a faction of their race.
What if (famous last words on this thread ) they had a conflict similar to our WWII, only their Nazi's won?
I agree that given the vagueness of Holomom's message the writer's could go in either direction... but it is curious that Holomom DIDN'T refer to the enslavers as aliens to themselves, which would be a vital piece of information to give to the away team.
If the podsters do come from a race of shapeshifters, why can't they shapeshift in their human bodies? Nasedo pointed out that he was different, and though he could shapeshift externally, his bone structure remained the same.
If the podsters can manipulate molecular structure, why can't they manipulate their own molecules to shapeshift? Was this intentionally bred OUT of them?
Sorry, but when I start pondering this stuff, I always seem to think in questions rather than answers... must be the Socrates in me.
08-11-2000 02:34 PM Piper88
Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 157Originally posted by ReggieHi Reggie:
Originally posted by LSSWell, you can get V-8 "Spicy" flavor. Or you can get regular V-8, and add hot sauce to taste. I prefer Frank's Hot Sauce, or Louisiana Crystal, to Tabasco Sauce though. Frank's has a much better flavor! Yum!
[BTW--I now buy V-8 Berry splash and drink it regularly...how more Roswellian can you get?]
LSS
I read somewhere where the tabasco bottles on the set are filled with V-8 Berry Splash (hence the above reference). But you are right--to get the "real" Roswell I'd have to go spicy (not sweet).
LSS
08-11-2000 02:47 PM Piper88
Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 157Originally posted by Lorrilei1960Excellent questions! Some comments:
What if (famous last words on this thread ) they had a conflict similar to our WWII, only their Nazi's won?
....it is curious that Holomom DIDN'T refer to the enslavers as aliens to themselves, which would be a vital piece of information to give to the away team.
If the podsters do come from a race of shapeshifters, why can't they shapeshift in their human bodies? Nasedo pointed out that he was different, and though he could shapeshift externally, his bone structure remained the same.
If the podsters can manipulate molecular structure, why can't they manipulate their own molecules to shapeshift? Was this intentionally bred OUT of them?
WHY CAN'T THEY SHAPESHIFT? This is, of course, a major difference between the books and the TV series. In the books they CAN shapeshift. Of course I think it is limited to changed facial features, etc. (nothing that matches Nesedo/Harding's cave wall trick)!!! You mentioned Harding's explanation--but doesn't Tess explain to Max as well that their biogineered bodies cannot shapeshift? As for WHY they are created with this limitation , we could speculate anything from a mundane "human DNA forbides it" to a more esoteric "we'll always know WHO you are because you are locked into ONE shape and a basic skeletal structure" kind of ploy!
INFORMATION ABOUT THE BAD ALIENS. As I reflect on it, it is really quite astonishing how little we know of the "enemies." Of course this will be a major plot line of the Fall story arc, but since we have the entire hiatus to speculate on them, we realize how little we have on which to really speculate!!!
LSS
08-11-2000 03:32 PM LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Opps!!! The above two posts should have the user name LSS. Piper88 is my daughter who is a Charmed fan.
08-11-2000 03:42 PM Starstruck
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 52 Perhaps the pod squad were created in a human form to hide or help disguise them from shapeshifters. This goes on the assumption that SS's would be the ones with the evil within. Maybe a SS can easily spot another Ss so for all practical purposes they apear human.
Something that's been bothering me about Harding. Doesn't he say he knows the Eagle Rock Military Base intimatly when hr is forming an escape plan with M/I/T. How would he know it intimatly? I've always felt that TicTac was the alien held in captivity for 3 years, and presumed that Harding/Nescedo escaped from there rather quickly. Something just doesn't add up for me.
Someone had mentioned- and I can't remember if it was on here or not about each one of the podsters having a SS to watch out for them. The more I think about this the more it makes sense to me. 4 podsters - 4 aliens in the crash. With 2 of the aliens killed in the crash it really messes things up, changes destinies. They were not there to teach them about their past and what's expected of them. Since the pod squad hasn't been groomed for their mission since they hatched how do we know they'll even want to take it on?
08-11-2000 03:56 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 I always figured it was Harding/Nasedo that was held captive and studied. He is so ... um ... warped.
Since RD trusted Nasedo (until he killed Atherton), I figured the kinder, gentler Tictac must have been the one that Nasedo knew... although, Tess referred to RD and the healing stones when they thought Harding was dead... oh boy, that kind of interferes with my theory... unless...
Tictac rescued Harding and they were together for awhile swapping stories, etc., and then decided to split up after Tess was hatched, with Harding in charge of Tess and Tictac on the lookout for the others.
08-11-2000 04:07 PM bkwrm79-Stargazer
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 88 TicTac shows signs of perhaps having been held prisoner for an extended period of time; Nacedo knows the base intimately (a prisoner wouldn't gain that kind of knowledge, confined in a cell, drugged all the time to block his powers). I think that Nocedo probably rescued TicTac. This might explain why TicTac stays in the background and doesn't interfere with Nocedo- TicTac probably wants to do things differently but doesn't feel free to contradict Nocedo, because of owing him his freedom.
08-11-2000 04:18 PM shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 Since it is Pierce's testimony that "proves" the existence of 2 surviving shapeshifters (not counting color and other empiracle differences), should we consider the possibility of an Evil Alien/FBI conspiracy (a la X-files) that mimics the existence of more than one shapeshifter but is really a biological experiment to give that power to evil humans?
And, just an interesting side note re dreamwalking: In the October issue of Psychology Today it says that Austrailian Aborigines visit each other in their dreams. Any Austrailians out there to verify?
08-11-2000 05:04 PM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Things don't add up for me either.
Harding said he knew the place intimately, having escaped once. That does not give you intimate knowledge of a facility several decades later. Who knows what modifications and changes were made? Ummm...actually, Harding might, since he says he is a consultant for changing abandoned facilities (he doesn't say which ones)into storage units (possibly even the WR?).
We don't know which one was held captive for three years, or if either one was, because there could have been another that was not captured. If Harding and Tic-tac were both the ones captured and one of them had escaped, the other could have escaped, been rescued, been brainwashed, or bought off during the three years of captivity.
Tic-tac could have been working independently to protect the podsters while Harding actively went in. Maybe Tic-tac is staying rather remote to be a back-up, or is more of a scout/look-out. Once the evil aliens start turning up, he may reappear to join the fight. In fact, he may already be there.
How did Harding get all those pictures if he had just gotten to town? Tess said he never her alone for long. A whole box would take a long time. Who developed them? Not One Hour Photo by the look of them - it would be too public and risky anyway. Does Harding have a darkroom? Did Tic-tac take the pictures and send them to Harding? Or did the FBI? How did Tic-tac know about Topolsky in "Crazy"? Harding said in WR that Michael would have to be going in with him instead of Tess or Isabel, because the only female agent was now dead. Who has been keeping them both informed?
I have no knowledge of spoilers on this, but what if Tic-tac has been in Roswell all along, hiding in plain sight? What if he killed and replaced somebody - like Liz's dad (who asked Max some pretty creepy questions in the card game.) How long have the Evans been married? What if Tic-tac married Diane just before the hatching, to give his little darlings a mommy since it could have been the females that were killed in the crash? And what was Max's dad doing driving down a dirt road in the desert at night? Had three of the little monsters gotten away, and he talked his wife into taking a little night drive, so he could "accidentally" find them? When he finally got back to pick up Tess, had Harding gotten her? are they on opposite sides? Why does only Diane question their children?
OK, I was just kidding, but the point is, even if we know by the person's background that they are human, it doesn't mean a SSer didn't replace them at some point, just like after the Hankocide.
08-11-2000 06:07 PM Jamethiel
Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 14 More thoughts on "why" podsters aren't shapeshifters as raised in the thread somewhere above. It occurred to me that the Cuckoo bird lays its eggs in the nests of other birds and lets other bird parents "raise" the children. Now the reason that Cuckoo birds do this, is 1) to shift the energy it takes to raise offspring to someone else, so they can continue to make and lay eggs...giving the species the ability to put its eggs in more than one basket (so to speak). And 2) to cause the other bird (competitors) to feed their bigger, larger, adopted cuckoo chicks over their own smaller ones (i.e., survival of the fittest). Now, if we factor in camouflage into the theory, then perhaps the podsters were always intended to be raised by humans. Perhaps there is something about being raised as a "human being" that is necessary to fight the enemy aliens. I've also wondered if the reason they brought Max's "essence" to Earth and mixed it with human DNA is to more accurately achieve the conditions that caused Max to be a "Beloved Leader" in the first place. In other words, if you cloned John Kennedy, you would have to raise him as he was originally raised to turn out another "beloved leader."
Or perhaps Max and podsters primary purpose is to lead the "enemy aliens" astray while Momogram and company dig in and try to fight the enemy. In either case, creating "shapeshifters" might cause the enemy aliens to lose track of the podsters for longer than they ought...if the podsters are decoys, then they do have to send out signals to do their "job."
But primarily, my thinking is that having the "shapeshifting" ability means that you can't do something else that is important to defeating the enemy aliens. We don't know what that "something else" is...but it could be healing, or empathy, or the ability like Tess has to deceive your enemy.
08-11-2000 06:32 PM Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 I hope I'm not saying something colossially stupid. All here agree that there are two "Nasedos". I do not think that the writers really intended this, but may use it anyway.
I was thinking about why everyone is convinced that there is a GN and a BN. Think back to the scenes in ITTW and ID where the podsters are talking about Nasedo, who and what he his.
Max is certain he's dangerous, and a bad dude.
Michael thinks if he finds him, he'll be his own personal savior.
Obviously, if you talking about the same guy, he cannot be both. I want to believe both Max and Michael, so I believe that they are too different persons. (So maybe the writers did intend this after all.)
Isabels perceptive seems to be the most "possible".
"I don't know who I'd be after being alone for 50 years."
Starstuck: glad to see you like my idea that there could have been four SS in the beginning.
From Nebraska
Qfanny!
08-11-2000 08:19 PM shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605Originally posted by JamethielHmmmm....so would this mean that Michael had the equivalent of an abusive foster father on planet X? Like maybe he was originally raised by Evil aliens?
...I've also wondered if the reason they brought Max's "essence" to Earth and mixed it with human DNA is to more accurately achieve the conditions that caused Max to be a "Beloved Leader" in the first place. In other words, if you cloned John Kennedy, you would have to raise him as he was originally raised to turn out another "beloved leader."...
08-11-2000 09:11 PM Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 I'm another one who believes TicTac and Harding are separate and opposed to each other. Harding appears to be one of the enemies AlienMom warned about. TicTac, I think, is still working faithfully to carry out Mom's intent as well as possible after the crash and other problems.
Palomino and others have pointed out the differences in style between them. Let me collect the symbols or story incidents I think are hinting at two shapeshifters, or two adult aliens central to the story so far. Two slugs (nearly shapeless creatures) in Liz's experiment. Two faces changed by Max on the photograph with Liz. In 285 South, two adults searching for Atherton's hidden room (symbolic pod chamber); one disables the other for a time, neither gets to the chamber until after the kids have left. At the crash festival, two people with identical alien costumes to confuse the sheriff. (One is in a scene resembling the murder of Sheila Hubble, the other comes under suspicion.) There is likely irony in Harding's remark after killing the agent he was impersonating in the White Room: "There can't be two of me."
Two other details that may be "signal or noise" on this topic:
(1) In the Pilot, before the alley scene, look in slo-mo as the Jetta passes a white building (movie theater?). Perfectly framed for an instant after the car leaves is a row of bushes grouped like this:
0 0 o ooo
On the right is that same 1 + 3 pattern that turns up so often; I think it represents Liz + M/M/I. On the left are two taller ones that I imagine represent the two adult aliens that figure largely in the story so far.
(2) In 4-Square, Harding telling the sheriff about the surveillance camera: Each view of Harding also centers on a pair of door handles of some cabinet beside him. These are not in the fully latched (parallel) position; each is turned a little, showing us that they turn in opposite directions....
It is hard for me to believe that Hank was tortured and killed by TicTac; that seems out of character. Harding is the one who appears cruel and vindictive. Shouldn't we consider that Harding could have killed Hank, in his reckless fashion (not noted for his navigation systems, as Palomino put it) and later TicTac discovered the crime and covered it up to protect Michael?
Tess says that Harding hasn't left her alone for long. Even if this is true, it doesn't necessarily rule out Harding from appearing in Roswell, if he can teleport and maneuver in time. (Some hints of time travel in the story are listed on earlier threads, and a few more small ones are Harding's remark "timing is everything" and Rocky Calhoun "negotiating with Dateline")
[Edited by Nemo on 08-11-2000 at 10:49 PM]
08-11-2000 09:34 PM GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1029 Nemo that was great! And it makes perfect sense. You never cease to amaze me, your ability to pull so much out of the story is incredible. I like your idea that Mr Harding killed Hank and Tic Tac covered it up to protect Michael, because it always bothered me the way they described Hank death being tortured.
08-11-2000 09:44 PM shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 So, Nemo, maybe one of the shapeshifters is a double agent? Maybe they're like McCain & Bush: same team, slightly different agendas?
08-11-2000 10:09 PM Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Nemo : On the subject of Harding having committed the Hankocide instead of Tic-tac:
1. The body was disposed of by the SSer that popped Tic-Tacs.
2. Harding would have been more likely to do a safe, quick kill in an unemotional fashion. He was very unemotional about Pierce torturing Max. The rescue was mechanical, and Harding told Michael that emotions were a weakness. Hank had done less to Michael (although for a longer time) than Pierce to Max.
3. Tic-tac seems to genuinely care about the podsters. It seems in keeping with his nature to be emotional to a point. I think Tic-tac was outraged and hurt that Michael had endured physical and emotional abuse at the hands of Hank - probably blaming himself for not being there sooner, or preventing the foster parenting to begin with. I thought it was rather touching that T-t would risk exposure in the trailer park by torturing Hank to the point that the neighbors reported it. If he had been thinking unemotionally, as Harding would have, the Hankocide would have been clean kill. Maybe he has not heard the Klingon saying, "Revenge is a dish best served cold".
4. Harding had not shown up yet, Tess in tow (since he never leaves her alone long).
5. The SSer's movements while inpersonating the late Hank were Tic-tac's - slow, smooth, deliberate, well mimicked. UnHarding-ish/more Tic-taccy.
Just IMHO, Harding vs. the Hankocider is what made me first believe there were two SSers.
08-11-2000 10:37 PM Karst
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 199 Palomino: I agree. It is also a "cleaner" explanation than 2 shapeshifters who normally function independently suddenly getting coordinated.
[Edited by Karst on 08-11-2000 at 10:47 PM]
08-12-2000 12:22 AM Michelle in Yonkers
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 127 Forgive if any of this repeats, but the danged site will not load tonight (Crashdown Must Not Load Tonight! - - just a little humor)
So I'll just say my piece, and hope this will then actually take me to the bottom of page 2.
Great points:
LSS: liked point about side-stepping human heritage, connection to humans as family
PALOMINO: Great point about their shapeshifting being different! I had noticed it when I saw Edsedo change into the clown, but I hadn't really taken it all the way. As Edsedo, he incandesces into bright light and emerges clothing and all. As TicTac, he seems to work harder and shapeshift piece by piece. He seems sweaty and tired, as if it's a lot of work. And what better way to disguise a substance dependency than as a readily available candy known to come in many colors, etc.
SHAPESHIFTER: Loved the idea that Hank made all that noise because he saw TicTac change into - himself! And to his minuscule and pickled brain, that must have been terrifying.
LAMEDUCK: Good point about the clothes! I'm going to have to go check that out - does the farmer wear the same clothes as Hank?
KARAT: Interesting idea that if he finds it harder to shapeshift, it also might be harder (and slower) to kill.
ME: Harding (Edsedo) and TicTac definitely have different styles when they mingle amongst humans. As Hank, TicTac was *really* smooth, he's got everything down pat: the lingo, the perfect buttons to push to get Valenti eager to be rid of him. He understands human customs and human emotions, and even seems to be up on current events with Michael (do I have to sign something?) He's smooth and makes all the right moves. He leaves people utterly convinced he's who he says he is, and motivated just as he wishes them to be (Valenti, and perhaps also Michael, if TicTac is the hitchhiker driver as I believe)
But Edsedo is very clearly someone who has learned "human" as a second language; he doesn't understand human emotion, shows contempt for it, but seems curiously eager to take Liz out for a test drive. Someone dabbling with something he doesn't understand.
Especially seen in the way he talks to/handles people - he says the right things, but it's so obviously fake, it's jarring: it's so right, it's wrong.
When Valenti asks if he's connected to the FBI, he says, "Oh, Lord no, Sheriff! I¹m just a guy who¹s trying to do his job and get along in a new town, that¹s all." It's so innocent it's alarming, and it makes the Sheriff so suspicious that he runs a background check.
Which is another consistent point: Edsedo is either lying about who he is, or he's the most inept protector who ever lived! He kills in a way that's obvious, as if to keep the Special Unit thriving (funded) and on the scent (indicating some special interest in so-doing, perhaps? his allegiance is suspect? I mean, hasn't this man heard about illegal handguns? Blunt instruments? Colonel ? in the library?); he gets Max captured; he says nothing useful to the Pod Squad in the cave, leaving them almost no choice but to activate the orbs despite his warning.
Whereas TicTac is smooth; he leaves people lulled into a false sense of security, and often, I suspect, simply manipulates others into doing his dirty work, thus keeping himself completely in the clear.
The Topolsky thing, for example: he seems to keep up with Pod Squad current events, and maybe thought that her desperation and unpredictable loyalty might endanger them. So regardless of her change of heart, he maybe followed her into the restaurant meeting with Liz, and then tipped off Pierce and got her captured? (That's how he might have been pretty sure that she was about to be captured.) He made sure to get the podsters *out* before Pierce & Co. arrived, and even to have the Sheriff there to protect them, just in case his plan backfired. (Thus manipulating the Sheriff, too, whose buttons he already knows well.)
Not only are TicTac's methods different, they're much more successful. So even if he has to sweat it in order to shapeshift, he's better at it, if you're counting the net results.
[Edited by Michelle in Yonkers on 08-12-2000 at 12:43 AM]
08-12-2000 02:54 PM bkwrm79-Stargazer
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 88 I really like the idea (lastest development by Michelle) that TicTac is both less powerful (in terms of alien abilities) and more effective than Nocedo. Intelligent use of what you have can be more important than brawn (something Tess, dismissive of possible human help, has yet to learn). I was wondering why Nocedo killed that way- perhaps he figures that the FBI will never believe that Special Unit elite operatives just happened to get mugged, so he might as well try intimidating them.
08-12-2000 03:48 PM Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 645 Harding/Nasedo seems to have a slight miswiring in his synaptic connectors. He is illogical in his methods. He kills the SU agent in order to lure Pierce out and draw him to himself... however, he kidnaps Liz as a hostage??? What was the point of that? I know he wasn't counting on Max & co. to follow, but surely he would have figured that her human friends would have been alarmed and done something about it... especially since they would eventually see Max and figure out what was going on. Either his elevator doesn't go to the top, or he doesn't know as much about humans as he thinks he does.
08-12-2000 04:05 PM HyperKitN
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 135 If anyone is here right now can you let me know if ID is going to show tonight at 9. Someone said before that is was because those of us in So Cal had the stupid game on Mon. I suppose if you don't live in Cali you may not know but if you do let me know so I can record it. Thanx
08-12-2000 04:07 PM
clarinetkate
Dedicated Fan
Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 169 I haven't read everything on this thread, so forgive me if I am repeating, but I just HAD to say...
When Mom says that they perished in the "conflict that enslaves us" everyone seemed to take that to mean that there are the oppressed people and the oppressors, and that Max's people were literally enslaved. I never looked at it that way. I think when she says that a conflict enslaves them she means that this conflict has ruled over their lives, making all young adults go to war, making all money go towards military expenses, all research in science towards the war effort, yada yada. When something runs your life it enslaves you... I never really took it to mean that they were ACTUALLY slaves. Who knows what they might be fighting over. And there are two sides to every story, who knows WHAT side Max's people are really on! For all we know, Max's people were the "oppressors" and have some sort of racial difference with the other people and so therefore think the other people are evil, and maybe the other people think the same thing...
I also have a hard time believing the whole enslavement thing simply because, hey they were able to extract the essences from four people and send them off to earth in a space ship and whatnot, that doesn't sound like the actions of a particularly oppressed people. So, I tend to think of this as just a figure of speech that mom uses to convey how all-consuming the war is...
Did that make any sense?
--KATE
08-12-2000 04:33 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan
Registered: May 2000 Posts: 792 HyperKitn, if you're still there, you can go to http://www.tvguide.com/listings/ and put in your zip code and it will tell you. It's not airing in Sacto, but then we had ID last Mon.
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 Harding/Nasedo seems to have a slight miswiring in his synaptic connectors. He is illogical in his methods. He kills the SU agent in order to lure Pierce out and draw him to himself... however, he kidnaps Liz as a hostage??? What was the point of that? I know he wasn't counting on Max & co. to follow...
I question that he didn't know Max would follow. Possibly he really is evil (as Liz saw within?) and was delivering Max over for some testing (which they did) but then rescued him because that was his cover story.
08-12-2000 04:36 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan
Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 Kate, yes, to me that looks like an important possibility.
08-12-2000 04:42 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan
Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1364 quote:
Originally posted by clarinetkate IWhen Mom says that they perished in the "conflict that enslaves us" everyone seemed to take that to mean...that Max's people were literally enslaved....I think when she says that a conflict enslaves them she means that this conflict has ruled over their lives, making all young adults go to war, making all money go towards military expenses, all research in science towards the war effort, yada yada. When something runs your life it enslaves you... I never really took it to mean that they were ACTUALLY slaves. --KATE
Hmmmm---Okay. Just for the sake of debate...IF it is the "conflict" that is enslaving them (resources, etc.) and they are not actually slaves, THEN...are you suggesting that:
1) a war (= conflict) is being fought to a stalemate...no winners or losers just an ongoing drain on resources, OR
2) a "conflict" that is not a war per se, but perhaps internal faction fighting (but remember that our podsters "died" in it!) OR
3) a war (= conflict) in which Max's people are the aggressors, but it is an ill advised war in which they are committed but losing?
BTW--your last point (they couldn't be slaves or else they couldn't have sent the podsters to earth) is not necessarily valid. One could posit an underground movement with resources for one last desperate gamble!
I don't know. It is possible that the war is still being fought and it is this that is enslaving them. If this is the case it is a LONG war.
You know, if both sides are now on earth, it raises the question of just how extensive Max's people's rule covers. Are we talking one planet or a system or an empire? If more than one planet are the bad guys fighting on the periphery of the kingdom or approaching the ruling world (where Mom is)?
Geesh...talk about SF...there are a doz ways the writers could go to expand this conflict IF they want to.
Interesting speculation ClarinetKate!
LSS
08-12-2000 06:25 PM
clarinetkate
Dedicated Fan
Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 169 quote:
Originally posted by LSS
You know, if both sides are now on earth, it raises the question of just how extensive Max's people's rule covers. Are we talking one planet or a system or an empire? If more than one planet are the bad guys fighting on the periphery of the kingdom or approaching the ruling world (where Mom is)?
Geesh...talk about SF...there are a doz ways the writers could go to expand this conflict IF they want to.
Interesting speculation ClarinetKate!
LSS
You bring up great points LSS... oh and after second thought I agree with you about the fact that they had the technology and capital to send the podsters to earth doesn't mean they aren't enslaved (I was remembering Star Trek First Contact...thinking about devastated earth and Zephram Cochran still gets the flight off...).
It's interesting that you bring up area of government. Perhaps Max's people occupy one planet and the "evil aliens" occupy another and they are warring over another territory (possibly colonies, outposts or space boundaries). Maybe both are empire builders competing over the same natural resources or planets...
Another good point you make is WHERE is the conflict occuring. If we do assume that it's two planets warring as opposed to two nations, then perhaps where Mom is hasn't yet been infiltrated and that is why they had the wherewithall to send off their quasi-reincarnated podsters. Or perhaps that's WHY they needed to be sent to earth, because while they had the means to sustain and regenerate the podsters on the planet they were afraid that the power center (mom and co) would soon be infiltrated/taken over and the podsters destroyed. Maybe the center was infiltrated and the evil ones discovered that max and co had been sent to earth, hence their coming as well. Of course that wouldn't explain mom's foreknowledge of the evil ones presence there... Not to mention that if she knew the bad guys were on earth, WHY would she send her beloved children there?
Sorry, I guess I just basically fanned the flame there... But basically what I think about Destiny overall is that they have left all these holes (giant, gaping ones!) on purpose because the writers themselves may not have been sure of a lot of things (is, all the trouble spots of the destiny message- the "Conflict", the "essences", etc). It certainly leaves lots of room for debate and it is interesting to speculate and I love coming to lurk on these threads cause you guys have WONDERFUL ideas, hope my two cents was as worthwhile : )
--KATE
08-12-2000 07:53 PM
Lameduck
Dedicated Fan
Registered: May 2000 Posts: 72 This is sort of off the wall, but the first time I heard "It has begun." I thought of the two sides getting together ahead of time and deciding on rules on how their conflict (waged by proxy) on Earth was to be conducted. Why did it "begin" with the orbs activating. Logically, it "began" way back on the home planet. Sort of like Side B can't make its move until Side A announces it's ready and the playing field established.
08-13-2000 12:03 AM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan
Registered: May 2000 Posts: 792 LSS, Nemo (if you're out there), and other interested Roswellians: Just one more thing on ID before we more or less move on: When Maria "catches" her mom with the sheriff, and tries to disuade her mom from being involved with him, her mom says: quote:
AMY: Right. Maria, there are like 3 single guys in all of Roswell and 2 of them live in the Desert Inn retirement community.
One of the 2 would be the sheriff's father. In ITW we have: quote:
(Sheriff Valenti is at a retirement home, gazing into a room filled with patients)
So, who's the other? Or was it just a cute line? If there is one other, he too might have been in Roswell around the time of Sheila Hubble's death. Maybe TicTac is the other "single guy."
I also have a new Liz theory, but I'm gonna post it on the Liz...Myth... thread.
08-13-2000 12:29 AM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan
Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 I kind of think Amy was being flippant. She was exaggerating to make a point. There have to be more than 3 single males in Roswell (not counting the teens ). BTW... I wonder what will become of the role of Amy now that the actress has gotten another gig??? Will she be relagated to "never seen parent" status, or will she make cameos? I know I kind of liked the Amy/Jim flirtation thing... it was very cute, and let us see a different side of Sheriff Valenti.
08-13-2000 12:36 AM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan
Registered: May 2000 Posts: 792 Lorrilei, I hadn't heard that about the Amy actress. What's she doing? I would assume they'd just get a replacement. But it's a small part; maybe she can continue?
And yea, I thought it was just a flip remark until I was in the shower this evening (my bath visions are not like Liz's ).
08-13-2000 12:42 AM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan
Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 shapeshifter... I heard she was cast in a sitcom. ABC network, I think. It would be too bad if they had to recast her... she's hilarious. (I only wish my shower fantasies were half as interesting )
08-13-2000 12:49 AM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan
Registered: May 2000 Posts: 792 L, Well, it's good for her to have a bigger role.
I've read a lot of posts on the other board of fans who met Jason Katims (I think?) and others at the party in LA, but none have mentioned asking if every word of the script and every stage prop is significant to the plot.
Oh well, off to dreamwalk...
08-13-2000 02:27 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan
Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 Some musings about the possible nature of the conflict on the home planet:
On the sheriff's wall as he was interviewing Rocky Calhoun (ITW) was an emblem like a US shield with wings, like the Union Pacific logo. (Check it out: www.uprr.com) The calendar in Atherton's basement was also from Union Pacific. Perhaps AlienMom's people were seeking peaceful unification of two countries, races or cultures? Like the V symbol: two sides coming together? Or the swirl symbol, two spiral arms entwined (though without loss of identity) around the V symbol? Maybe the enemies are fighting for separation or segregation? The two C-shaped arms of the Saturn symbol are kept on opposite sides, and there is no V.
Perhaps former Max, said to be a "beloved leader," had something in common with Abraham Lincoln, who perished in preserving a federal Union, in the aftermath of an all-consuming conflict in which slavery was an issue. [Or Gandhi, as Michael remarked: another admired leader striving for national unity and peace between religious/cultural groups, struck down by one of his own group for being too conciliatory toward the others.] Already in the Pilot, right behind Max when we first see him at the crash festival, wasn't there something about that still figure in the white lifeguard chair (with its big squarish armrests) that reminds one of Mr. Lincoln sitting in his monument? (That's near the one time we see a US-flag shoulder patch on the sheriff's overcoat.) And in tomorrow's episode (SH), when that radio tower near the crash sited happens to be in Lincoln County (a fact that plays no further role in the story), the producers take the unusual step of spelling that out on our screens, as if they must not pass up this opportunity to mention Lincoln again.
If some of this is on the right track, it could fit with pixiedude's tentative observation that the two hands around the basketball on that banner were of different colors (brown/gray?). Also with the impression BD seems to give, of a symbolic substory about former Max and Liz as something like heads of state of neighboring countries seeking to form a union (again, there was US symbolism, on Alex and his guitar). Maybe also with the podsters' craving for both sweet and spicy, whereas Tess goes for only the one. And the show's theme of acceptance of those who are different, working together, etc.
[Edited by Nemo on 08-14-2000 at 06:44 AM]
08-13-2000 02:56 PM
Reggie
Dedicated Fan
Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 149 quote:
Originally posted by LSS
Hmmmm---Okay. Just for the sake of debate...IF it is the "conflict" that is enslaving them (resources, etc.) and they are not actually slaves, THEN...are you suggesting that:
1) a war (= conflict) is being fought to a stalemate...no winners or losers just an ongoing drain on resources, OR
2) a "conflict" that is not a war per se, but perhaps internal faction fighting (but remember that our podsters "died" in it!) OR
3) a war (= conflict) in which Max's people are the aggressors, but it is an ill advised war in which they are committed but losing? (...) I don't know. It is possible that the war is still being fought and it is this that is enslaving them. If this is the case it is a LONG war.
LSS
May I refer you to the "Troubles" in Northern Ireland, which have troubled the inhabitants for 400+ years? Whose ultimate root cause is whether long-dead King Henry VIII may/may not get a divorce? (Sheesh...)
08-13-2000 03:25 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan
Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 If there is any symbol whose interpretation seems straightforward, it is the dartboard. In TC, Max's head gets in front of the bull's-eye while Hubble wangles a ride and makes his grim remark about giving his best shot. There it seems clear we are being told that Max is someone's target.
Liz has been in this situation often: in the Pilot, leaving Kyle's garage; in the back room of the cafe in HW and again more prominently in ITW during the $62.50 negotiation.
I get the impression that one person who wants Liz removed is Harding. One scene suggesting this is the gas station in MttM: the reflection seen repeatedly in front of abducted Liz is a banner advertising GUMOUT, a product for removing sticky residues.
A more puzzling instance of the target symbol is in the photograph that drunken Max altered to Max/Liz/Max. The Max on the left (originally Alex) has a target behind him. If the two changed faces symbolize two shapeshifters, is one of them someone's target? Well, Pierce is hunting Harding, according to Tess. In that case, why only one? Does Pierce not know about TicTac?
Finally, in Milton's office in ITW, we see Milton in front of a dartboard (likely the same one as before with Hubble). Is this accidental, or is Milton also under some threat? (Maybe only in his own mind?) Could there be something important about Milton, that anyone should bother about him? So far, it doesn't seem like it....
[Edited by Nemo on 08-13-2000 at 06:14 PM]
08-13-2000 03:28 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan
Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 856 Perhaps Max wanted to get rid of his new bride ala Anne Bolyn (sp?), and that started all the trouble.
08-13-2000 04:26 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan
Registered: May 2000 Posts: 792 Nemo, The targets could have a double entendre (whether accidentally or on purpose), i.e. being "on target" as well as being the target itself. I watched a bit of ITTW last night and am thinking about Milton being "on target" with regards to discerning that it was the real thing and not a hoax. I believe in the books Milton's counter part (who also fills Harding's role) is indeed the target of an enemy. Also, Max and Liz have both made evaluations of people (Topolsky, Tess, Nasedo, Valenti, and even Mrs. Evans) that have proved to be on target.
08-13-2000 05:56 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan
Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 quote:
Originally posted by shapeshifter The targets could have a double entendre (whether accidentally or on purpose), i.e. being "on target" as well as being the target itself....
Thanks, shapeshifter. I see that could be the explanation sometimes.
BTW, I just saw the last 3 episodes again, and in MTTM, Michael, Isabel, and Maria get in front of that target or close to it. I don't remember what they were discussing at that moment; maybe they reached some insight. Alternatively, all of them are said to be on Pierce's target list.
08-13-2000 06:32 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan
Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 466 ...Or maybe they were just training a new member of the camera crew...hence the targets to help in aiming ... Well, it was just an idea.
08-13-2000 06:45 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan
Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 Shapeshifter, interesting observation on Amy DeLuca's remark about 3 single guys, two of them at some retirement home. Maybe it's a hint where TicTac sometimes hides out, maybe it's only a joke. But I wonder if her remark "He's been married once -- who hasn't, these days?" foreshadows the eventual revelation about former Max and his bride. Other things about the DeLuca house reminded me of the Momogram: the 3-pointed crown in the kitchen window, and the wall sign "I'm a princess, I don't do dishes."
08-14-2000 06:40 AM
Nemo
Addicted Fan
Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 546 Can someone explain the doorway we see behind Michael as he appears outside Maria's house? It appears to be the doorway of a well-lighted woodworking shop (or tool shed?), with something like a bird feeder among the objects in view, and a hammer on the wall with tools. Is it really there outside the window? Someone has left the door of that shed open at night in the rain? (Or is it a reflection in the window? But Maria wouldn't have such a shop adjacent to her bedroom? Besides, it looks as if Michael blocks the light when he stands in front of it, so apparently it must be outdoors.) Does it have any likely symbolic meaning, or is it just a device for getting some light on Michael so we can see him standing there in the dark?
09-17-2000 03:40 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan
Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 281 quote:
Originally posted by jenlev hi there,
the nasedo/tic-tac issue seems like the 'hide the pea in a cup game'... just when you think you know where (who/which) it is...it turns out to be somewhere (someone) different.
jenlev
Jen or anyone else, do you think that there is any significance in the shell game in MttM???? I see this shell game much as you describe the two shapeshiftin aliens theories....
BTW--This is a really good conversation of tictac v harding if you care to read the whole thread.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
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