Topic: The Science Fiction of Into the Woods


This thread was 3 pages long

07-31-2000 06:23 PM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 The theme of alien encounters structures this episode,
from the first lighting laced sighting in its opening scene, to the
image of Valenti with his aged Father in the nursing homeña father
that Valenti is just now beginning to realize was right all along.

From our post-destiny POV, several questions concerning this episode
still remain unresolved:

1) THE ALIEN AND THE SYMBOL. We have yet to discern exactly WHO left
that signal for our podsters to discover and WHY it was left. This
alien remains off stage throughout the entire episode. There is no
trench-coated retreating figure, no tell tail tic-tacs, and no
shapeshifting. WHO did leave that sign?

And WHY was it left? Michael thinks it signals Nesedo's return. But
don't you think this is a bit of overkill? Especially if this being
has been keeping a low profile up until now (except for palm
imprinted corpses that is). Why announce to the world that "he's
baaaaaaaaack?"

And what is the significance of that whirlwind/stylized galaxy (if
that IS what it is)? It will later appear on the orb and in the
"bat-signal" in MTTM, as well as on the pendant and in the memories
of Izzy and Max as they draw in the sand while on that long ago
vacation. Is this the symbol of Max's throne/dynasty? Of his planet?
Of a federation of planets in a galaxy? Is it a symbol of power that
requires some signal on Max's part? When our podsters touched it
"glowed" ó and that means....................????

2) MICHAEL AS HEALER. This episode treats us to a rare and glorious
sightñMichael in control of his powersñand using those powers to
heal. What a contrast to the warrior Michael who unleashes that
terrible killing force in Destiny. One wishes this part of his
characterization could be further developed (but in truth we already
have one Max, I guess we don't need two). But what is it that allows
Michael to be successful here? And what of those flashes? Did River
Dog actually "see" the vision in the cave in Balance even though he
did not have a stone (at least I don't remember him having one)?

3) ALIENS AS ENEMIES. Kyle's words at the campfire echos the fears
that aliens are the enemy. What we know from our end of season point
of view, however, is that Kyle and others like him might be ñ to an
extent ñ right. Those bad aliens we heard so much about at the end
of Destiny...ever stop to think just why they are here? Perhaps all
they want is Max. But perhaps there is something else that attracts
them...perhaps our planet is next in line in their expansionistic
vision?


Well folk...what do YOU think?

LSS


[Edited by LSS on 07-31-2000 at 06:26 PM]



07-31-2000 07:05 PM

tanchel

    Registered: May 2000     Posts: 45 LSS,

I have never understood the sneaking around from the off-stage
alien. Is Nacedo (if it's him) testing M/M/I to make sure they are
actually aliens? If it IS Nacedo, then part of me thinks Tess is
around too. By the end of the season, I get the distinct impression
that Nacedo rarely left her on her own.

Michael as healer: It's a beautiful sight! Unfortunately, I have no
idea why he can control his powers here. Something to ponder... But
it does support the idea that all the aliens have a common pool of
abilities and then specific strengths.

Evil aliens--if you go look at the Cutting Room Floor
(www.roswellscripts.com), the original Destiny script has a
statement from HoloMom about the other aliens. Our Pod Squad aren't
just supposed to save the homeworld but "prevent them from taking
over another race, another peaceful people." In that scenario, Earth
is in danger of suffering the same fate as their original planet
(would somebody tell me a NAME for this other planet, please?!)

Now then, I'm off to actually watch this episode, with an eye
towards figuring out the Michael/powers/control thing.

tanchel



07-31-2000 07:19 PM

jenlev

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 266 hi there,

ok, so i'm really ambivalent about this but riverdog in this episode
didn't seem like the riverdog that was initially presented. it
seemed he was testing michael with his response to his injury. where
did the the images that michael seems to see come from? how did
riverdog know the symbols that were visualized? also: when michael
confronts riverdog about being the alien...riverdog does not deny
it...he only says... "i am not your father".

when valenti catches up with the podsters riverdog takes on the role
of an authority with michael... counseling him to back off and not
make a scene (although not in those words). then riverdog smiles as
he watches the interaction betwen valenti and max (and the other
podsters). almost like nasedo smiled at max in the pod cave at the
end of destiny???

that struck me as odd and eerie. oh, by the way, how did riverdog
know to turn off his flashlight when the podsters were running their
hands over the alien symbol? just a few thoughts on this, i have no
idea what to do with them or if they make any sense.


also... given the erratic behavior of nasedo in later episodes it
almost fits that he might have wanted to send a signal and messed up
the delivery process. or perhaps it was the 'evil-aliens' trying to
bring the podsters +/or nasedo out of hiding? or maybe nasedo was
testing/preparing the podsters and is so brain damaged that he
didn't think anyone else would catch on to the sighting...or believe
it?

regarding the alien symbol: it seems somewhat 'ying-yang' with the
dual direction of the lines and the central triangle. i may be
incorrect but on the close ups of the orbs i seem to recall that
there were actual points (arrows?) on the end of the lines? might it
represent the combining of the alien and human beings? where's the
rosetta stone when you need it?!

as for the 'evil-aliens'....perhaps they want max and the other
podsters for potential information or abilities they carry, or have
access to? ...and perhaps the combination of their human and alien
essense combine to make them more then the sum of their parts.
perhaps the 'evil-aliens' have their own version of the "monroe
doctrine" (kidding!)

jenlev




07-31-2000 07:20 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 I think I have more questions than answers right now.
I'll sleep on it.

HOW was it left?

WHAT was the bright light? Someone "shifting", a landing, actual
creation of the symbol?

WHO left it? I believe this was the first evidence of a present-day
alien.

Was it one of Max's people? Not a very smart move concidering they
would know about the evil aliens, and this would call attention to
the area, not to mention the podsters who naturally showed up to
investigate.

Was it an evil alien that was trying to draw them out? The FBI
suspects Max; word gets around, and pretty soon every evil alien in
the country knows about it. Were they trying to draw out Max, or
seeing if there was an adult alien around that might turn up? If
there was an adult watching over the podsters, the evil aliens might
want to send reinforcements. Or what if it was to see if the FBI
were close and got there quickly, or if they were again remote?

What if the symbol was from one adult to another? Tictac to Harding
or visa versa. "I'm back, where are you? Max has exposed himself. We
need to keep a closer eye on them." What if Michael only partially
read the map, and accidentally burnt the symbol on the library lawn
that the other adult was to leave in answer to tonight's symbol?

So many questions ... so many possibilities.



07-31-2000 07:25 PM

Jodi

Dedicated     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 387 Great questions, lots to ponder . . . not too many
answers from me, I'm afraid.

This was my first viewing of this ep, and I was thrilled to see
Michael healing River Dog. Unfortunately, what this signals to me is
that the writers were scrounging for conflict in Destiny and
thought, hey, let's have him freak 'cause he thinks he's a killer. I
get why it's more dramatic for the series to have each character
gifted with special (err, more fully developed)
superhuman-alien-hybrid powers, but when I can see the writers
behind the curtain it takes some of the fun out of it for me.

As for the sighting and the signal? I'd love to hear that the
writers actually know where they were going with them. Maybe the
original Nasedo was going to be a boogieman out to get the podsters
and they had to change course? My cynical self thinks they set it up
as just another Maguffin plot device so they could get these
characters in the woods with Valenti on their heels.

Hmmm.

Jodi



07-31-2000 07:39 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Ummm... odd question here. Do I have a post, about the
third one down? the board says I don't have one, but it shows up on
my screen. Can anybody else see it?

Jodi : What you said about the writers and the plot device - you are
probably right. I think at this point they figured they could think
about it later if they got renewed. I think that's why everything is
so loose and vague. There are so many loop holes, it could have been
written by a team of lawyers.



07-31-2000 08:02 PM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 Yes I can see your post (loved the team of lawyers
quip).

Someone brought this up--but it is odd how River Dog "takes to"
Michael isn't it? And really doesn't take to Max. We discussed this
on another SF thread but did not resolve it.

LSS



07-31-2000 08:02 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 LSS: thanks for your great opening!

I hope I can be brief!

1) Alien and the Symbol.

LSS, you asked about the who, what and why of the whirlwind symbol.
I think this symbol is actually very similar to the one Michael and
Isabel burn into the ground at the end of BD. First, both symbols
have a "center". Second, it appears that the are surrounded by two
curve lines. The symbol at the end of BD is perfectly symmetrical.
It looks like a partial ellispe around the center. (kinda like
saturn's rings). The symbol at the end of ITTW is the "whirlwind"
symbol. This is the most important symbol we have for the pod squad.
We see in RD three different versions for the symbol. (The sand
drawing M&I did, Max's hand drawing, and the pendant.) For the most
part, when you look at the whirlwind, it appears to be symmetrical
too. Which indicates the importance of balance.

I always thought that one of the curved lines represented the
"alien" side, the other curved line represented the "human" side.
I'm not sure what the center would represent, other than a focal
point, maybe a core (I'm willing to debate what the core could be,
in Max's case, could it be Liz?).

In BD, the burned symbol M & I leave these curves are not
intertwined. Conversely, in RD and ITTW, the whirlwind symbol shows
these lines as being intertwined upon each other.

I believe that the symbol in BD that M&I burn is just another form
of the whirlwind symbol. It shows both sides of the same core, but
acknowledges a seperation between the two sides. The whirlwind
symbol shows the same core with the sides inter-twined, proving how
each side compliment each other.

Thus, the whirlwind represents the podsters, a combination of
"alien" and "human" balanced within one another. This is why MMI
seem to have a memories of the symbol.

Michael: "I know that symbol."
Max: "We all do."

(Can someone show these symbols on the thread? I'm not sure how to
do it.)


I think this is a reasonable interpretation of the whirlwind and
it's mate. As far as the who, and why, I'm not sure. But I am a bit
more convince that River Dog is an alien (I yet to believe though.)
I think that it's somewhat significant that he is with MMI when they
activate the symbol. I have other reasons as well, but will save
them for a different post.

2) Michael and his powers:

This is a hot topic. Lord knows we'll see the gamit of explanations.
I doubt if my idea is orginal.

I think Michael has more control over his powers because he is still
"balanced" from his healing two episodes before. Note that in TH
that he is pretty certain he can fix Maria's napkin holder with his
"gifts". Perhaps instead of suggesting that Michael has trouble with
his powers b/c he can't focus, or has no control over his emotions,
I suggest he's not properly balanced to use them in the first place.
When he has a balance, he's fine, when he doesn't, he's not and has
a hard time. (On that same note, it would then figure that he would
be the most likely to get sick from not being balanced.)

3) Aliens as the enemy.

I'm not sure I have much to say about this other than to use this
theme as a segway into my own observations.

This episode is horribly ironic. You have your obvious ironies, such
as Kyle telling "aliens are evil" stories to Liz and Maria. Here are
some other ironies I noted.

1) The first person Milton wants to see is Max!

2) It's ironic that there is a WOODS near Roswell, NM. Isn't all
desert there?

3) The whole camping event features kids with either fathers that
want to be there for their kids (Philip, Jeff, and Mr. Whitman) and
the kids don't want to be there or are there for different reasons,
(Max, Isabel, Liz and Alex.) Or it features kids that want the
experience and no dad interested to provided it, (Michael, Kyle, and
Maria). ---Maria might be pushing it.

3) I find it ironic that the sheriff has blocked off a "4 Square"
miles near the sighting.

4) And then, I like to point out every main character has an "event"
with their Dad. Even the Sheriff. Michael seems to have found a
pseudo dad at the last minute. I can't blame him for thinking that
he could be the "4th". I mean, he is also attracted the whirlwind
symbol too. He didn't need to come also. He could have told Michael
where it was. If I was Nacedo trying to hide from the pod squad, I
might very well do exactly what RD does in this episode. Find a way
to prove I'm not the "stranger". Break my leg. (He didn't fall hard
enough to break his ankle.) Maria seems to be the only one w/o a dad
in this eppy, but she doesn't care enough to make me worry.

Believe it or not. I was brief. Goodness.

So, what do you think?

Qfanny.








[Edited by Qfanny on 07-31-2000 at 08:32 PM]



07-31-2000 08:09 PM

tanchel

    Registered: May 2000     Posts: 45 Palomino,

I can see your post. The board is having a schizophrenic moment I
think.

Okay, now I have a partial theory to LSS's question about Michael's
healing ability in this ep. Those flashes triggered it for me--I
assume they come from Balance. This made me think that Michael's
control was greatly enhanced after that experience--that when the
dream-Michael finally reached out and took Max's hand, he made some
kind of connection within himself. He crossed a threshold finally,
and it now allows him to tap into his abilities. Course, I could be
nuts, but I'm thinking it makes sense. Michael couldn't control much
of anything prior to Balance, without help anyway, and post-Balance,
he does much better.

And like that rest of you, I want a rosetta stone....



07-31-2000 08:16 PM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by Qfanny
I always thought that one of the curved lines represented the
"alien" side, the other curved "line" represented the "human"
side.
....
I think Michael has more control over his powers because he is
still "balanced" from his healing two episodes before.
...
This episodes is horribly ironic. You have your obvious ironies,
such as Kyle telling "aliens are evil" stories to Liz and Maria.

So, what do you think?

Qfanny.



I think that your take on Michael is very interesting. What entails
"balance" for Michael (aside from the healing stones)? How does he
get it in Destiny?

And I agree there is a lot of irony in this eppy--the campfire scene
is priceless. If Kyle only knew how handsome aliens on Roswell
really are!!! (at least some of them)

I'm not sure about the symbol. I tend to think that they do
represent two separate symbols--but we know so little about either
one it is hard to say for sure. I wonder if there are any linguists
among us who would hazard a guess as to their relationship to each
other?

LSS



07-31-2000 08:21 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 A quick mention about the symbol that was also on another
thread.

This symbol has been in the woods, on the orbs, in their memories,
above the carnival, on the necklace, and in bold thick writing in
the cave. At the center of it is a triangle that points downward,
according to the cave drawing. This is like the V we see in the
constellations. Is there a connection, and do they represent the
same thing?

Does the triangle represnt their planet, their government/military,
the ruling family, or maybe ruler-Max? The V is often with Max or
Max/Liz, but in a flash with Tess. Could the symbol be for Max or
his family, and Tess as the former (arranged?)bride would also be
symbolized by it, and now the chosen mate (Liz) comes under it's
representation.

Any thoughts?



07-31-2000 08:42 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 quote:


Originally posted by LSS

I think that your take on Michael is very interesting. What
entails "balance" for Michael (aside from the healing stones)? How
does he get it in Destiny?

LSS



Well, I'll have to pull out the tapes to be sure. But I think
Maria's presences with Michael accounts for a lot! Generally
speaking, when he communicates with Maria- instead of being a jerk-
he seems to be better.
EG
1) 285 South: Fries the car battery, Maria and him are arguing.
2) 285 South: Is able to find the hidden room when Maria
demonstrates "belief" in him.

I'll be even more general. When Michael feels accepted, he's more
balanced. Note his struggle with Ed Harding in WR, he doesn't feel
accepted by him. Ed Harding is not who Michael accepted. But his
ease at healing River Dogs leg could be related to his ability to
trust River Dog. Emotions may have some part, but I think it all
depends on how Michael feels he's perceived. He always struggles
when Max is around too. Max can be pretty harsh when it comes to
Michael. Michael is always telling Max he doesn't understand.

Qfanny!

[Edited by Qfanny on 07-31-2000 at 08:54 PM]



07-31-2000 09:02 PM

Faith Evans

Dedicated     Registered: Mar 2000     Posts: 145 Someone expressed the wish to see the symbols shown so
here they are....


From River Dog


From Into the Woods


From Blind Date


From Max to the Max

Hope this helps.

Faith Evans



07-31-2000 09:21 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 They whirlwind symbol looks basically the same in all of
its renditions... I think the differences may lie simply in the
medium... in the ground, etched in a pendant, drawn on the wall,
sketched on paper, etc. I always thought (in light of Liz's vision
in SH) that it represented their home galaxy. It could be their
culture's insignia...something recognizable to its citizens (like we
recognize our flag).

re Michael's powers: I agree that Michael's powers seem to fluctuate
in response to his emotions. When he is calmer, he has much more
control... such as in ITTW. He was disappointed when he found out RD
wasn't his father, but he wasn't in a turmoil.

Now that you mention it, (whoever did, sorry), it is interesting
that RD did not say "I am not an alien"...he merely stated that he
was not Michael's father. Hmmmmm.





07-31-2000 09:49 PM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by Faith Evans
Someone expressed the wish to see the symbols shown so here they
are....



From Into the Woods


From Blind Date




I don't know--do you really think that these two symbols are the
same? What about simply related?

LSS



07-31-2000 09:51 PM

CedarCircle

Dedicated     Registered: Mar 2000     Posts: 67 Let me interrupt this discussion to clear up Qfanny's
misconception about the geography of Roswell.

Yes, Roswell is in a desert flatland in the Rocky Mountains.
However, if you drive west from Roswell for about an hour, you climb
up into the mountains. When you've gained some elevation, the
landscape becomes a pine forest. The real life Mescalero Apache
resevation (model for the Mesaliko tribe) is in such a forest.

Elevation differences make for more striking changes of climate than
latitude changes. Arizona, for example, contains nine distinct
climates. New Mexico is not much different. Also, since air is
thinner at elevation it doesn't hold heat very well. An autumn night
in the mountains of southern New Mexico can be dangerously cold,
just as depicted in the show.

I hope this helps out a bit.

Your's truly,
Geographic Rodger



07-31-2000 09:57 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 LSS - hmmmm... the symbol that Isabel and Michael made
out of rope and lit on fire does seem to resemble more of a giant
eye than the whirlwind... doesn't it. I still am not convinced that
they are actually supposed to be two seperate symbols, though....
However, if they are (I am a very flexible thinker) my guess would
be the each represents one of the factions (ie, good alien/bad
alien). Perhaps we need to follow the trails of each to see where it
leads.



07-31-2000 11:06 PM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 from Balance



Here it appears that the two symbols in question are different.



[Edited by Nemo on 07-31-2000 at 11:16 PM]



07-31-2000 11:20 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 605 Will try to be coherent on little sleep:
1)My daughter pointed out that RiverDog knew the light was aliens
because he had seen it before; she believes this implies a space
craft landing. Hmmm...sounds a little too X-files-ish.

2)I think Michael healed RD because RD had healed M in Balance (and
that's what the visions were from). Perhaps this is another
indication that the powers are somehow linked to emotional support
from without.

3)When I first saw this ep I surmised it to a student as being about
"relations between fathers and children."

re: Nemo's post above this one: sure looks like 4 + Venus and
Harding does not look like a Botticelli to me.

[Edited by shapeshifter on 07-31-2000 at 11:31 PM]



07-31-2000 11:51 PM

pixiedude

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 130 Thanks to Faith Evans for posting the alien symbol pix,
and CedarCircle for info on Roswell weather. I was wondering about
that (tonight's ecosystem was distinctly reminiscent of the
temperate rainforest around Vancouver that much of the first 5 years
of XF was shot in).

1) Had Nemo not posted on the Blind Date thread his observation that
Tess didn't appear in photos of the group taken by Valenti, I would
not have thought of these things regarding River Dog tonight:

In the beginning, when he shows up at the trailer park, he just
seems to materialize in the shadows. I figured, OK, he walked
through the trailer park, but the camera didn't stay on him until he
was almost in the circle of light around Hank's picnic table.

But I noticed again, when Valenti had caught up with the pod squad
in the forest, he didn't even seem to notice RD. You'd think he
would have asked him what he was doing there. As the kids start to
leave, RD stays behind. The camera follows the kids as they leave,
then returns to Valenti, studying the grass. He appears to be alone.


So I wondered, did RD disappear? Did Valenti ever see him? Did Max
or Isabel ever see him (he asks Micheal what they're doing here, but
neither Max nor Isabel responds). I don't think he ever actually
interacts with anybody but Micheal in this ep. Was he the RD we've
seen before, a shapeshifter impersonating RD, or a Tess-like
hallucination imposed on Micheal's mind?

As others have pointed out, his response that he's not Micheal's
father is a little odd. You'd think he'd say, no, he's not an alien
(or a Nacero).

The images Micheal sees when he heals RD's ankle make it seem like
RD must have at least watched a ceremony where those symbols were
displayed on the ground, even if he couldn't participate.

2) In Destiny, after Micheal stops the FBI car and Valenti realizes
that he's an alien, he acts amazed and surprised that Micheal and
Isabel are aliens, as well as Max. Yet he saw them all together
tonight, and he has lots of opportunity to see them together
elsewhere. So why was he so surprised?

3) On the Blind Date thread, Nemo suggests that the race between
Kyle and Max, and Liz and Doug's escape from the KROZ crew, give the
outlines of how 2 different parties of escaping aliens eluded their
enemies on the homeworld. With that in mind, when I saw Liz and
Maria stay behind as decoys, and let themselves get caught to draw
attention from Max and Isabel, I wondered if this was an allegory
for:

a) 2 aliens, or 2 alien vessels, let the enemies catch them
somewhere in space, sacrificing themselves so that the ones carrying
Max's essence or whatever could make a clean getaway.

b)Above Roswell, 2 ships, realizing the whole party was being
pursued by the Air Force, deliberately crashed and let themselves be
caught, to protect the rest of the group, which landed elsewhere on
earth.

4) I've thought about this before: in 4-Square ( I believe that's
the one with Tess and the pod squad next to the pod, as Tess tells
them her story of their mutual incubation), after Max refers to the
alien as Nacero, Tess does so as well. I thought that was odd. In
keeping with her public role as Harding's daughter, I would have
expected her to call him Dad.



08-01-2000 12:42 AM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 TRY THIS : On NEMO's 2:06 posting, was that Max standing
in amongst the symbols in the second picture? If so, notice where he
is standing, under a triangle (V) with a dot in (him in a pod?).

In the first picture, with the symbols on the paper, notice that
there are six figures represented by the boxes. Starting from the
left, a dot, a dot in an opened cell, three dots in squarish cells,
and one dot in a downward-pointing triangle (that believe means
Max). Go over to the right to a string of symbols. There are six of
them, each different - the one on the right again is a
downward-pointing triangle with something in it. Does the triangle
mean something belonging to Max, Max once he "becomes himself"
again? If we could figure out who or what the other symbols
represent and maybe how they compare to the boxes/cells, we may find
answers. Any takers?

[Edited by Palomino on 08-01-2000 at 12:53 AM]



08-01-2000 04:02 AM

plumeria

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 981 The symbol: I'm wondering how it got there -- witnesses
make it sound like it was a UFO landing -- that it came from above.
But if it was left by Nacedo (or other earth-based alien), how could
the light come from above?
But as for Nacedo wishing to keep a low profile, we have seen in M2M
that he has used flashy symbols (the bat signal) to lure enemies out
of hiding. It could be that this had the same purpose -- that it
wasn't meant for the podsquad at all, but to lure FBI agents out of
hiding, or something.

Has no one else thought that the 2 main symbols (the swirl and the
one burned into the library lawn in BD) look like astronomical
objects? The swirl may be the galaxy where the aliens are from. The
other symbol looks either like a galaxy (the spiral is only one of
several forms that galaxies take) or like the results of a
supernova. Recall that Liz's SH visions included a red giant. Could
be that their solar system supernovaed.

I'm also not convinced that RD isn't an alien of some sort -- how
did he know where Michael lived? And I think Michael was able to
heal RD because, as when Maria "helped" him see visions in the key,
RD has confidence in Michael, and does not criticize him the way
others do.

This doesn't really have anything to do with ITTW, but someone else
(on another thread) pointed out that one of the symbols in the
cave/in the visions/on the paper looks exactly like the famous
cliff/mountain where the pods are hidden.

Well, I'm not sure I added anything to the debate, but there's my
contribution.



08-01-2000 04:07 AM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 Cedar, thanks for clearing up New Mexico's geography!

Here's a new question then.

1)If the "woods" are an hour away, then what cause the weird lights
seen in Roswell? This was seen from the Crashdown Cafe. Think how
big that ship would have to be!

2)Police Scanners. Who knows about these things??? A police scanner
can pick up a lot of different radio bandwidths, cordless phones,
cellular phones, baby monitors, CBs, and then emergency bands.
Milton strikes me as the type to listen it all night. I think that
he may have overheard a lot of information on our pod squad-- he's
just to stupid to realize it. Or, you could say, no one is that
dumb!

Qfanny



08-01-2000 04:09 AM

JanetMG

Dedicated     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 276 quote:


Originally posted by shapeshifter
1)My daughter pointed out that RiverDog knew the light was aliens
because he had seen it before; she believes this implies a space
craft landing. Hmmm...sounds a little too X-files-ish.




I really wish Michael had followed up on that comment by RD. When
did he see it before and what did it mean. What else does RD know?
(It really bugs me that these Podsters who are so intent on finding
out about their past and heritage never demand or seek more info
from RD or Nacedo/Harding.) If Nacedo/Harding is the only "fourth
alien" or even if there is another surviving adult alien from the
crash in the '40s, why would a craft have landed when they're
already here? I know there could be a lot of possible answers to
this last question, but it was never answered by the show. (Further,
if there is still some link to the homeworld & its resources, having
the resources of the FBI at their disposal would seemingly pale in
comparison.)

I realize that post-Destiny, I've become cynical, disappointed fan
(and I'm trying to post less because of that), but this episode
truly bugs me. It feels to me that the sci fi elements of Into the
Woods not only took a backseat to the relationships, but were either
manipulated to bring the story to certain relationship points &
scenes or tossed in as afterthoughts at the expense of telling a
coherent, plausible SF back story. Michael's ability to control his
powers seems inconsistent and most or all of the questions this
episode raised remain unanswered. (Further, the drug subplot, while
probably not sci fi, struck me as designed to lead to the scenes
with Liz and her Dad and to provide a metaphor for Liz's
relationship with Max and its effect on her relationship with her
parents--a silly storyline designed to get to particular
relationship points and scenes.) When the ep originally aired, I
remembered being disappointed because the promos seemed to promise
more back story. I took some comfort in the idea, however, that the
fourth alien was back and assumed that the symbol, the sighting and
RD's behaviour would be explained. Oh well, maybe second season.

(If I recall correctly, Elliott loved this episode and thought it
involved great sci fi. Elliott (or anyone else that thinks this ep
did a very good job from a sci fi perspective), if you're still
lurking, I'd love to hear an eloquent defense.)



08-01-2000 05:47 AM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by JanetMG

1) (It really bugs me that these Podsters who are so intent on
finding out about their past and heritage never demand or seek
more info from RD or Nacedo/Harding.) I
....




JanetMG:

I agree--it really doesn't make much sense that a group of people
willing to travel to Marathon TX with nothing more than a key and a
name, wouldn't follow up such obvious resources in their backyards.
Especially Nesedo.

Granted the creature is creepy and I wouldn't want to talk to him
either, BUT he holds the best "key" to their past--and NO ONE really
even tries to use it to unlock who they were/are. It is absolutely
mystifying (and not mention just a teensey weensey ILLOGICAL).

We just cross our fingers and say--Ron Moore...this is precisely WHY
you are with us.

LSS

[Edited by LSS on 08-01-2000 at 05:50 AM]



08-01-2000 06:13 AM

tx_lady

Addicted     Registered: Mar 2000     Posts: 662 I had to ask this cuz you guys on these Science Fiction
threads are the "intelligent ones" (lss hee hee) anyway, you know
how on an older style tape recorder like the one in "Into the Woods"
that the sherif used when interviewing Rocky.... the buttons from
left to right when looking down at the tape recorder go

pause... stop.... rewind... ff.... record & play

Well when the sherif "stopped" the tape it looked like to me that he
pressed two buttons (play & record) on the right side if you are
looking down at the recorder from the front... just wondering if I
was the only one who saw this... it's like he was not even recording
until he told Rocky that he would stop it and it looked like he
started it rather than stopping it....

Am I the only one??



08-01-2000 06:58 AM

Karst

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 199 quote:


Originally posted by JanetMG
. . . this episode truly bugs me. It feels to me that the sci fi
elements of Into the Woods not only took a backseat to the
relationships, but were either manipulated to bring the story to
certain relationship points & scenes or tossed in as afterthoughts
at the expense of telling a coherent, plausible SF back story.
Michael's ability to control his powers seems inconsistent and
most or all of the questions this episode raised remain
unanswered. (Further, the drug subplot, while probably not sci fi,
struck me as designed to lead to the scenes with Liz and her Dad
and to provide a metaphor for Liz's relationship with Max and its
effect on her relationship with her parents--a silly storyline
designed to get to particular relationship points and scenes.)
When the ep originally aired, I remembered being disappointed
because the promos seemed to promise more back story. I took some
comfort in the idea, however, that the fourth alien was back and
assumed that the symbol, the sighting and RD's behaviour would be
explained. Oh well, maybe second season.





JanetMG: Change the details, and I think this describes most of the
SF in season 1. To me, it could describe Blind Date to a T with just
minimal alterations. I feel your pain over the promos and the lack
of back story. One let down after another. Oh well. Maybe the 1st
season creators had so little feel for SF, that a cryptic sign
seemed like a lot to them. Maybe they thought it built suspense, not
realizing they were pushing people into exasperation? I have better
hopes for the team they have now.

re: symbols and variations

That is hard. Just look at all the fonts on your computer, and the
ways they make a lower-case "a" for example. We recognize them all,
but they can actually be radically different. (Thus the problems
with OCR technology.)

On the other hand, when I lived in Japan, Japanese people had
trouble with American handwritten 4's. They never close the top,
even when writing by hand, while we usually leave the top open when
we write. They could figure out us Americans meant "4" because there
weren't many other choices, though sometimes they thought maybe we
did our 7's or 9's funny.

What it comes down to, a symbol can have numerous variants, as long
as it doesn't start to overlap with another. And sometimes it can do
even that. When I write cursive, my e's can be like i's without
dots.

But if you look at the picture of Michael's hallucination, the
whirlwind symbol and the "library symbol" look pretty different. If
the two had appeared in different contexts, I might say they were
just variations of one character. Since they are clearly distinct in
a careful representation, I'd say they are different symbols.

I refer to Michael's hallucination rather than Max's drawing because
we see the original directly. Once we can compare the drawing with
the hallucination, we can see that Max was uncannily accurate.
Drawing from memory, Max might have gotten small details
exaggerated, and accidentally created two symbols from different
versions of one. (Look at how your handwriting can vary. Mine at
least can vary a lot in a paragraph. Max was seeing handwriting on a
very rough cave wall.)

I don't worry much about arrows at the end of the swirls or a circle
vs. a triangle at the center. That kind of thing can depend on
style, writing surface, writing instrument and even time available
and personal taste. When we hand write, we don't bother with all the
little "serifs" that decorate letters, and some people put circles
over their i's instead of dots. We could conceivably have two or
three whirlwind symbols, but I'd prefer to see them side by side in
the same medium and style.

Enough about that. Miscellaneous thoughts:

I thought the visions in the healing scene were what Riverdog was
picking up from Michael. Of course, with Max and Liz, it went the
opposite way. Maybe Michael was more open and trusting to Riverdog,
so it went that direction?

Even if Riverdog were Nasedo, the "I'm not your father" comment is
weird. How did he pick up on Michael's longing particularly for a
father? In real life, my first assumption would be that Michael
wanted real parents, not just a father.

As for the attention-getting aspect of the sign: Everybody is very
hesitant all season about confronting Max. Aside from the sheriff
and FBI holding off, Nasedo/Harding seems to know perfectly well who
Max is (all those pictures in that box), but won't approach him.
(Though he does seem afraid of drawing Pierce's attention. So in his
case, he may be wanting to neutralize Pierce before contacting Max.)
But anyway, something to draw an alien out might have been a
sensible way for a fourth alien to locate the podsters, even at the
risk of people wandering around. Whoever made the mark may not have
realized how obsessed the sheriff was. (Max & Co. knew, but no one
advertised the fact.)

To go a bit OT: when the alien burns the picture at the end of Blind
Date, I thought he had been using the picture as he searched for the
podsters, and no longer needed it once he'd had a good view of them
all, and had seen for sure they were the ones he was looking for.
Disposing of it might have been a precaution, but it was done in a
melodramatic way for effect. Of course, Max was not at the library,
but the alien would have seen the three together easily. Watching
Isabel and Michael would confirm that they were also aliens, and not
just Max, the center of the attention. AS for where he got the
pictures - I assume the same mysterious place he heard the rumors
about Max. Maybe stolen from an FBI agent, who had been using the
picture as reference for the targets. Finally, relighting the fire
may have been meant as a signal back to Isabel and Michael. It
should have cause some noise in a small town to have a mysterious
symbol burned into a public lawn. If Iz and Michael had heard of it,
and even checked it out, they would have known it had to have been
restarted by an alien. Iz would have had confidence in her hiding
trick. My tie-in to Into the Woods is that there is signalling back
and forth, but the last signal didn't seem to get back to Iz and
Michael.



08-01-2000 07:24 AM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 Is it significant that when Michael sees the symbol and
exclaims "He's here, Nasedo is here," the one person who is right
there (besides the pod squad) is River Dog?



08-01-2000 07:49 AM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 quote:


Originally posted by plumeria
Has no one else thought that the 2 main symbols (the swirl and the
one burned into the library lawn in BD) look like astronomical
objects?



Many have interpreted the swirl as representing the galaxy the
podsters are apparently from (acc. to SH). The fictional Whirlwind
Galaxy, apparently modeled on the photogenic Whirlpool Galaxy, M51.
That seemed to become the consensus when the question first came up.


Recently (only 1 or 2 threads back?), pixiedude pointed out that
"eye" or "Saturn" symbol (used on the library lawn) could be
interpreted as a stylized post-nova. This is intriguing in view of
the red-giant story element in SH, as you said.

[Edited by Nemo on 08-01-2000 at 07:54 AM]



08-01-2000 07:51 AM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 Nemo:

But when nesedo is "dead" doesn't Tess refer to the healing stones
and River Dog as separate from nesedo? (I have to go back and look
at the dialog for destiny)

OKAY--I just went back and checked. Tess refers to the healing
stones BUT NOT to River Dog--actually this might strengthen your
argument Nemo...since the stones and River Dog are linked.

I don't know though--I kinda of liked River Dog and I don't like
Nesedo. Too bad if you are correct.

LSS

[Edited by LSS on 08-01-2000 at 08:01 AM]



08-01-2000 07:54 AM

Reggie

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by tanchel
In that scenario, Earth is in danger of suffering the same fate as
their original planet (would somebody tell me a NAME for this
other planet, please?!)



Ah-ha!
Now we know why Pierce was so furious - all these aliens running
amok, and he doesn't even know what to call them!




08-01-2000 08:03 AM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
quote:


Originally posted by plumeria
Recently (only 1 or 2 threads back?), pixiedude pointed out that
"eye" or "Saturn" symbol (used on the library lawn) could be
interpreted as a stylized post-nova. This is intriguing in view
of the red-giant story element in SH, as you said.

[Edited by Nemo on 08-01-2000 at 07:54 AM]



Yes I do like this interpretation! LSS



08-01-2000 08:17 AM

Reggie

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo




OK, here we have two different symbols: on the upper right, the
library lawn one (BD); and on the upper left, the one in all the
other sightings. They are written by the same alien hand, on the
same (prepared) surface. The LL/BD symbol "(.)" appears to me as two
hands (tenacles, etc.), which are holding something. I'd say,
something precious? Like the podsters? Is this the logo for the
Keepers / nannies / aliens in charge of looking after the podsters?

The other one "G.)" has one tadpole-shaped arm wrapped over 3/4 the
way around, and the other only half-way. Clearly, this is a
different symbol; and an asymetric one. It seems to be used as more
of a calling card than anything else.

The opened cell: are there two Keepers, one with the podsters, and
one at large? (Harding & Tic-tac?) Does it mean anything that there
are two square cells (one opened), and three irregular ones?

[Edited by Reggie on 08-01-2000 at 08:40 AM]



08-01-2000 08:35 AM

Reggie

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by pixiedude
4) I've thought about this before: in 4-Square ( I believe that's
the one with Tess and the pod squad next to the pod, as Tess tells
them her story of their mutual incubation), after Max refers to
the alien as Nacero, Tess does so as well. I thought that was odd.
In keeping with her public role as Harding's daughter, I would
have expected her to call him Dad.



And even in their private life, "Harding" has been acting as Tess's
dad, so that should be her ame for him. I think that Tess is just
going along with Max's identification of "Harding" as Nasedo/Nacero
( name? ).

I don't think that, even in WR, anyone has addressed "Harding" as
Nacedo, and had him answer to that name. I do not believe that it's
been established that he is Nacedo; and in fact I don't believe it.
That's why I refer to him as "Harding", or Tess's dad, depending on
my current level of paranoia. (I don't know that there wasn't a
human Harding, who was replaced by Nacedo; just like he did Pierce.)
We know who we are talking about, we just don't know who he is...



08-01-2000 08:44 AM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 Reggie:

1) If that symbol represents 5 pods then what do you do with the
"4-square" symbol?

2) I resisted calling Harding Nesedo for a long time...but since
Tess does call him that and Pierce mentions that the one called
"Nesedo" escaped from the installation and since Harding notes that
he escaped...I guess the references just finally wore me down!

LSS



08-01-2000 08:45 AM

Elliott

Addicted     Registered: Jan 2000     Posts: 964 JanetMG: Regarding 'Into the Woods,' I believe I
previously posted that it wasn't one of my favorites when it first
aired, but that in retrospect it contained a great deal of
interesting character detail and byplay, which it certainly does. I
would not make great claims for it in the sci-fi area, however.

Though I haven't been catching all the reruns, I did happen to catch
this epiosode last night. Apart from getting delightful reiteration
of Max's life-giving powers (he effortlessly makes grass grow to
eradicate the symbol), my main curiosity has been directed toward
what the purpose of the symbol is (rather than its meaning).

Putting aside the very probable idea that it was simply a plot
device that gave the writers an excuse to assemble the cast in one
location to watch the fun that ensued, I've come to the conclusion
that the symbol was a test of sorts. After all, it doesn't seem to
mark a spot of any significance, though it's true that the
appearance of Valenti might have postponed a first meeting with
Nasedo.

My idea comes from the plot of the 1955 'This Island Earth,' in
which a scientist is sent an elaborate kit of strange materials with
arcane instructions on how to put it together. When assembled it
establishes connection to aliens who used the contruction of the
communicator as a test to see if earthlings had reached a certain
level of intelligence and sophistication.

In this way, perhaps Nasedo was trying to see if his wayward charges
knew enough about their pasts, or had been sufficiently 'awakened'
by the alignment of stars, to seek the symbol out. He may have been
gauging their readiness to greet their 'Destiny' head-on. The
prospect that this was set up by some evil alien would seem possible
too, except that the very end of 'Destiny' suggested that evil
aliens were only then discovering that Max and company existed.



08-01-2000 09:17 AM

pixiedude

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 130 LSS-RD could still be a good guy; I'm thinking the real
RD was not involved at all, this RD may have been an impostor, or a
hallucination only Micheal saw.

People have pointed out re: WR and Destiny that Harding/N. pays the
most attention to Micheal, and never seems quite comfortable around
Max and Isabel. That's how RD acted, too.

Rocky Calhoun tells Valenti that there was heat lightning in the
woods for days before the "sighting." While that doesn't quite make
sense with the forest environment we saw, (or, especially
considering it), the only other dry lightning I recall is what Liz
saw when she kissed Nacedo Max. So I associate the phenomenon in
Into the Woods with the same critter who became Nacero Max (I'm
still not convinced that there are 2).

I pulled out my guide to the first 4 seasons of the XFiles, because
I could have sworn that Rocky Calhoun was the name of a redneck who
saw a UFO in the season 3 XF ep, "Jose Cheung's 'From Outer Space.'"
I was wrong, but the name was Rory Crikenson, so I had the first 2
letters right. But if you've ever seen that ep, one of my XF
favorites, can't you imagine Milton and Jose Cheung (played by
Charles Nelson Reilly) as old buddies?

The whole drug reference stuff seemed very contrived. The part that
bugged me the most was Liz paying Maria to go on the camping trip
with her. It was just so they could have Mr. Parker witness Liz hand
Maria some cash, and Maria hand Liz dried leaves in a baggy. It just
doesn't seem like Maria to demand cash payment for such a favor. She
might have said something like, "Ok, but you owe me big time," but
it seems more in keeping with her ways of negotiating the world that
she'd mean emotional currency, some big favor down the road, not
cold cash money.



08-01-2000 11:11 AM

Reggie

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by LSS
Reggie:
1) If that symbol represents 5 pods then what do you do with the
"4-square" symbol?
2) I resisted calling Harding Nesedo for a long time...but since
Tess does call him that and Pierce mentions that the one called
"Nesedo" escaped from the installation and since Harding notes
that he escaped...I guess the references just finally wore me
down!
LSS



1. That 4-square symbol could be a reference to their operational
roles. I dunno.

2. Tess calls him Nasedo, after Max tells her that that's what they
call the non-podster alien. Pierce (WR) says "Nasedo, that's what
you call him", or words to that effect. In both cases, the
"confirmation" is prompted by the podsters' practice rather than
independent info.



08-01-2000 11:20 AM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 A couple of quick comments/thoughts....

re the symbols... OK, I'm convinced that there are indeed two very
similar symbols. I'm hoping that each of the symbols we've been
shown will eventually be explained, as each seems to be significant.
I do think it interesting that the whirlwind does seem to be the
most important... it pops up all the time. Perhaps it has cultural
significance (as well as star map significance) that the podsters
should remember/know at some point... like their insignia/flag or
something.

re Valenti's surprise that Michael and Isabel are aliens... I was a
little surprised that he hadn't made that leap as well... it would
be only logical to step from Max to Isabel, his SISTER. Michael, he
may have assumed, was a trusted friend/protector or something... but
surely he should have at least suspected the two of them.

re drug subplot - I agree with you, pixiedude, that that whole drug
thing was not well done. Jeff has known Maria and her mother for a
very long time. He would know their homeopathic tendencies. Why
would he automatically make the leap from herbal medicine to
illeagle substances? AND if he has know Maria most of her life as
best friend to his daughter and current employee, why would he
assume that she would do anything to endanger Liz? If he had seen
the exchange with Liz and anyone else, it probably might have
crossed his mind, but come on... Maria????

re fathers/children - even thought the sci-fi was kind of not great,
I did appreciate the building of relationships between parents and
children... mostly between Kyle/Jim Jr./Jim Sr. I thought this was a
great eppy for Kyle and Valenti. By the way, Kyle's response to the
coaches telling him that they would be bunking together "Pinch me"
was said with such perfect comedic delivery and timing that I
actually slapped my knee laughing. I want to shake TPTB and tell
them not to loose Kyle's character again. Nick is just too good!!!

ps pixiedude ... I loved that eppy of X-Files, too... it is one of
the classics and hysterical!!!



08-01-2000 06:26 PM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by pixiedude
LSS-RD could still be a good guy; I'm thinking the real RD was not
involved at all, this RD may have been an impostor, or a
hallucination only Micheal saw.

People have pointed out re: WR and Destiny that Harding/N. pays
the most attention to Micheal, and never seems quite comfortable
around Max and Isabel. That's how RD acted, too.

Rocky Calhoun tells Valenti that there was heat lightning in the
woods for days before the "sighting." While that doesn't quite
make sense with the forest environment we saw, (or, especially
considering it), the only other dry lightning I recall is what Liz
saw when she kissed Nacedo Max. So I associate the phenomenon in
Into the Woods with the same critter who became Nacero Max (I'm
still not convinced that there are 2).





RiverDog as an Apparation: But doesn't Michael speak to him in the
presence of Max and Izzy when they meet up with Michael in the
forest?

Interesting about the dry lightening--nice call.

LSS

08-01-2000 07:23 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 On River Dog's treatment of Michael vs. Max :

When River Dog first met Max, he seemed wary and not willing to
share more than necessary information, and didn't want Max to
return. He did not offer information on the stones. He asked Liz to
make sure that Max deserved her trust. It sounds like RD has a
healthy fear/distrust of aliens - probably with good reason.

In The Balance, River Dog still seemed to have the same feeling
about the aliens. It was only when he realized that Michael was
deathly ill because of River Dog's test, that RD showed real
concern. It was actually his fault that Michael had gotten that
sick, because:

1. He did not warn Michael he might get sick (even w/out mentioning
"alien").
2. He did not keep an eye on Michael or check on him later to see if
there had been a delayed reaction.
3. He made himself unavailable when Max went to him for help on
Michael's behalf.

RD then helped them with the stones, and seemed to get a better feel
for them. (What did HE see during the healing? Did he sence
Michael's lack of love and nurturing?) He may have felt more
sympathy for Michael, partly out of guilt from his own behavior, and
partly because he understood him better; maybe he even pitied
Michael.





08-01-2000 08:01 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 Well, I just got done watching the eppy again. It's going
to be one of my favorites because nearly the entire script is
nothing but ironic statements. But I digress...

Regarding Michael's father, RD says,

RD: I'm not your father, Michael.

This seems to me that RD knew who Michael's father was.

And as everyone has pointed out, he does not deny an alien origin.

Now, back to the saturn and whirlwind symbols. I think we have more
variety in thinking as to the meaning, but someone on this thread
offered reasons that I can see.

1) It was a test.
2) It's communication between the adult aliens, possibly GN v BN.

These are excellent!

Has anyone considered that the wirlwind/saturn symbols may represent
a particular podster. (Non-dreamers are going to love this.)

The saturn symbol was burned into the library, were Tess recovered a
metal book detailing the pod squad. After Michael and Isabel burn
the symbol in BD, Tess shows up shortly after. Could Tess be
represented in the saturn symbol?

The whirlwind symbol could be the symbol for Max. First, it has been
shown more than any of the others. Second, Nasedo/Harding uses the
symbol in M2M to call the real Max to him!

I don't particular like this idea, but I cannot discount it
altogether. M&I send out the saturn symbol, Tess shows up not too
long later. Nasedo uses the whirlwind symbol to tell Max where he
is.

If I'm right, what would the other symbols would represent M&I?????

Qfanny



08-02-2000 04:24 AM

plumeria

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 981 quote:


Originally posted by LSS
Reggie:

1) If that symbol represents 5 pods then what do you do with the
"4-square" symbol?
LSS



The fifth one could be Nacedo (or any other adults that were
involved in the crash)-- note that it's shaped differently
(triangular) from the other four. I know, I know, I'm making this
up, but it's possible ...

Also, to the person who tentatively theorized that the Saturn = Tess
and Swirl = Max, I can't think what other symbols Is and Michael
would be. But it's a good theory!

Since this posting is all about the symbols, here's the pic again
for reference:




08-02-2000 04:54 AM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Plumaria : Isn't that Max standing under the triangular
cell? Notice how his shadow underlines the whole figure. The V seems
to follow him around and appears with both his arranged and choses
mates. Is the triangle representative of the V which could mean Max?


What if Nasedo was the dot not in a cell, on the left end? Could the
open cell be one that already hatched by 1959? Perhaps as a helper
to the now shorthanded Nasedo who had possibly already put the
podsters in the slow cooker?

The tail on the whirlwind is thicker at the bottom, as if calling
attention to and pointing out the string of cells/boxes/pods - like
"start reading here".

Ideas and comments?



08-02-2000 05:02 AM

plumeria

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 981 Palomino, I think it's Michael in the pic -- from his
Balance hallucinations/visions.

I've also been looking at the string of symbols to the far right --
looks like it might be a complete message. "Saturn", mountain, 4-sq
... can't see the rest of it in this pic.



08-02-2000 06:02 AM

LSS

Crazed     Registered: Feb 2000     Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
On River Dog's treatment of Michael vs. Max :1He may have felt
more sympathy for Michael, partly out of guilt from his own
behavior, and partly because he understood him better; maybe he
even pitied Michael.





Hi Palomino:

Since RD had no idea that Micahel ws "not-of-this-earth" then it is
hard for me to be critical of his behavior. But since RD has ample
chance to the results of the sweat in Balance then I can see your
point.

But you know--another person that RD "warms" to is Liz (even warning
her that she is "not one of them" and to be careful). But Micahel IS
"one of them" and RD doesn't feel this same need to be wary of
Michael. But he is wary of our noble (beloved) leader Max.

You know, after Balance RD should have felt better about Max. After
all, Max is responsible for seeing that Michael ultimately gets
healed. Surely that marks Max as a "good" alien. But instead, when
the sighting occurs--it is Michael to whom RD goes. And RD is a bit
miffed when M/I arrive in the forest.

Palomino--granted that RD might feel close to Michael--but what does
he have against Max?

LSS



08-02-2000 09:41 AM

pixiedude

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 130 quote:


Originally posted by plumeria
quote:


Originally posted by LSS
Reggie:

1) If that symbol represents 5 pods then what do you do with the
"4-square" symbol?
LSS



Also, to the person who tentatively theorized that the Saturn =
Tess and Swirl = Max, I can't think what other symbols Is and
Michael would be. But it's a good theory!





There are 2 other elements in the pic that are not part of a string
of hieroglyphics: one is below the person standing in the pic. It
looks like a)the whirlwind symbol starting to break up, or b) a
circular maze, or c) a stylized rose bud or tulip, viewed from
above. The second is almost at the bottom of the pic. It looks like
a profile of 2 jagged mountain peaks, of slightly different heights.
Perhaps these represent Micheal and Isabel.



08-02-2000 02:56 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Pixiedude : Could the mountain peaks be representative of
the mountain where the pod chamber was located?

Originally posted by LSS - "granted that RD might feel close to
Michael--but what does he have against Max?"

LSS - What if RD has heard of Pre-Max, either from Nasedo or a
Native American vision quest/prophesy/folk tale. Could Max be a
larger-than-life figure that RD fears, respects, or distrusts?
Perhaps Michael shows his vulnerablities so outwardly that RD does
not see him as a threatening alien (he didn't see what happened to
Pierce!), and if RD was in on the healing ceramony, he may have more
of a comfortable understanding of Michael and his desire to find his
origins and a father figure. RD may still be suspicious of Max
simply because he does not know him well, and has had a bad
experience with an alien he may have trusted in the past. I would
trust Max, but I'm looking from a different perspective, I didn't
see a dead man with a silver iron-on, and I'm not worried about
being a victim also.





08-02-2000 04:27 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 229 As Michael points out in Balance, this is a map. Maybe
the beacon in this episode serves as a reference point on the map so
they can find the other locations. We know they've found the pod
chamber (mountain symbol) and the supernova symbol is the library.
What could the other two points be? The point below the supernova
appears to be a stylized version of our solar system. You can see
planets with their orbits, and Saturn is identified by its rings.
Could the geometrical symbol be where the crash occurred? Maybe
this'll be answered in the second season. Also note that if the
symbols are significant for each podster, then why are there 5?





[Edited by rocklowery on 08-02-2000 at 04:34 PM]



08-02-2000 05:39 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 Isabel's symbol could be the 4 Square symbol. I was
looking at the images from 4 square on Crashdown and she does seem
to be more connected with it than that others. Also, it sort of
repeats the symmetry I noted in saturn and whirlwind. (Ok, it's not
perfect symmetry, but it's close.)

Michael could then be the whirlwind going bezerk symbol. (sort of
appropriate).

Maybe someone could put up the pictures for me since this is not my
area of expertise.

Qfanny

[Edited by Qfanny on 08-02-2000 at 05:42 PM]



08-02-2000 05:46 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Rocklowery : About the 5 cells:

We were told that Nasedo did these drawing fourty years ago, about
12 years after the crash. The open cell on the left looks like it
has already hatched in 1959, but why?

Possibility

Two aliens died and another may have perished at the hands of the
FBI/military. What if Nasedo hatched a replacement alien to help him
with the mission, maybe a clone of one that died in the crash, or
himself? Maybe it takes decades to incubate a podster, and M/I/Mi/T
were already simmering on the backburner (the four cells to the
right already have dots inside them). What if incubating a pure
alien could be done quicker than a hybrid, and Nasedo had his little
helper in 1959? Is that why Nasedo left - to raise his "assistant"
in a safer environment? Had he asked Atherton for some kind of help
or silence that Atherton would not give? We have a younger "Nasedo"
running around. Harding or Tictac?

Plausable?





08-02-2000 06:03 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 Oops

[Edited by Qfanny on 08-02-2000 at 06:08 PM]



08-02-2000 06:04 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
Rocklowery : About the 5 cells:

We were told that Nasedo did these drawing fourty years ago, about
12 years after the crash. The open cell on the left looks like it
has already hatched in 1959, but why?

Possibility

Two aliens died and another may have perished at the hands of the
FBI/military. What if Nasedo hatched a replacement alien to help
him with the mission, maybe a clone of one that died in the crash,
or himself?
Plausable?





Well, I know I'm not Rocklowery, but I think this is a good theory.
(And it's good scifi too!)

I'm going to add to my symbol theory a bit more now too.

Tess finds the metal book, but the cover of it has the Saturn symbol
on it.

Max finds the communicator and it has the whirlwind symbol on it.

I noted that 4 Square could be Isabel and galaxy could be Michael.
(note where Michael is standing on the image of the desert map
above. Sort of makes me wonder if there are other artifacts for the
squad to uncover.

thanks for reading my silly ideas.

Qfanny

[Edited by Qfanny on 08-02-2000 at 06:07 PM]



08-02-2000 06:31 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 229 Palomino,

It sounds like a plausible explanation, it would make sense that a
pure alien clone would cook quicker seeing as you wouldn't have to
worry about any additional ingredients to mess up the formula. I
really hope we find out early in the season what these symbols mean.
Loose ends drive me nuts!



08-02-2000 08:05 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 I just posted this on the R&I thread, so I thought I'd
put it on here too, since loose ends were brought up. Sorry if
someone else noticed this and said something before, but I only just
noticed it. On Tess's school records her mother's name was given as
Sheila - is this just coincidence?



08-02-2000 08:11 PM

Lameduck

Dedicated     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 69 As a side note to RD's behavior, there's another way in
which he was inconsistant in that he left the reservation to get
Michael. Every other time he's been seen, it's at the reservation.
If he wants to see someone, he sends Eddie with a message, but now
he shows up in a trailer park. I always felt he never left because
he felt safer there.(Remember the look of fear on his face in
Riverdog when Liz shows him the pendant?)
As another side note: How did RD and Michael get there? If the
symbol on the ground was near the cave, how did RD and Michael walk
there? Everytime someone has gone to the res they've had to drive.



08-02-2000 08:34 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 quote:


Originally posted by Lameduck
As a side note to RD's behavior, there's another way in which he
was inconsistant in that he left the reservation to get Michael.
Every other time he's been seen, it's at the reservation. If he
wants to see someone, he sends Eddie with a message, but now he
shows up in a trailer park. I always felt he never left because he
felt safer there.(Remember the look of fear on his face in
Riverdog when Liz shows him the pendant?)
As another side note: How did RD and Michael get there? If the
symbol on the ground was near the cave, how did RD and Michael
walk there? Everytime someone has gone to the res they've had to
drive.



I agree that RD probably feels much safer on the res... but maybe
the urgency of the message drove him off to look for Michael, and it
is curious that he went to Michael... that he knew where he lived,
etc.
Maybe he felt that going to Max's, seeing that Max lives in
mid-suberbia, was too conspicuous. Why didn't he send Eddie? Perhaps
Eddie wasn't available on short notice... or he was away and RD felt
he had to talk to one of the tripod.
Michael and RD could have hitched a ride, or taken a cab... I don't
know. I think it's more curious that the cave location doesnt' seem
to be the same. The terrain looked different to me. Was I
hallucinating? Was it even the same cave (I thought it was supposed
to be)?



08-02-2000 08:51 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Maybe River Dog had tried to get hold of Max and Isabel,
but they had already left on the camping trip?

Actually, I think his guilt, sympathy, or better understanding of
Michael might have led him to drive into town himself to contact
Michael and drive him out to the woods. (They would have had to park
quietly off aways so not to alert Valenti's men, and walk the rest
of the way. RD seemed surprised to find someone (M/I) already there,
but then relaxed a bit when he realized it was them.

From what was said, the cave was on the reservation; they said the
symbol was left in the woods "near" the reservation (also, Valenti
would not have had the right to seal off the area, if it was on the
reservation).



08-03-2000 01:27 AM

Reggie

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by pixiedude
Also, to the person who tentatively theorized that the Saturn =
Tess and Swirl = Max, I can't think what other symbols Is and
Michael would be. But it's a good theory!


There are 2 other elements in the pic that are not part of a
string of hieroglyphics: one is below the person standing in the
pic. It looks like a)the whirlwind symbol starting to break up, or
b) a circular maze, or c) a stylized rose bud or tulip, viewed
from above. The second is almost at the bottom of the pic. It
looks like a profile of 2 jagged mountain peaks, of slightly
different heights. Perhaps these represent Micheal and Isabel.



Given that the whirlwind symbol seems to turn up as a logo on the
orbs and necklace, and as a "we are here" on the ground and sky,
I'll subscribe to the theory that it's the "flag" of Max's country.

I've posted elsewhere that the "saturn" symbol looks to me like two
hands or tenacles holding something. It's associated with the alien
book. I think it means something like: "Important!" or "Hold on to
this!".

I agree that the mountain peaks symbol sure looks like the pod
chamber's location. As for the complex thing that's broken up, can
you think of a better symbol for The Crash?



08-03-2000 01:52 AM

deidra e, jones

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 945 Interesting that they would use "Tess" mother's name as
Sheila......

(Hubble)

That would be a hell of a twist!



08-03-2000 05:19 AM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 The symbol that looks like it is breaking up : If you
look at it on a different picture, because it is shown on more than
one occasion, it looks like a solar system. Possibly either their's
or ours?

deidra e, jones : I thought Sheila as Tess's mother's name was a bit
odd too. If the writers wanted no connection, why give her that name
- there are so many others to choose from that are not being used on
the show. Did nasEDo make it up in honor of the woman he killed, out
of guilt? Did he feel bad because he didn't know until later that
she had been pregnant? So many questions, and never enough answers.
If they get cancelled without telling us this stuff, I will be very
upset!

[Edited by Palomino on 08-03-2000 at 05:22 AM]



08-03-2000 07:49 AM

Karst

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 199 RE: Riverdog, Michael and Max

Actually, when Michael first sees Riverdog and goes to ask him
what's up, Riverdog turns around and starts to leave. Of course,
Michael had just been arguing with Hank and kicking up the trash
can, so reconsideration on RD's part seems reasonable to me. But I
don't think it shows a great deal of faith in Michael or a big
desire to help him.

RD does calm down over Max and Isabel, but what Michael says is,
"They came on their own." Maybe he thought at first they had been
followed? Or maybe he though Michael had summoned them with some
alien power. I guess he assumed Michael would talk to the others. He
didn't seem surprised that they knew. He didn't say anything like
"You told them?" or "How did they know?" Of course he doesn't know
about Milton and his police scanner (unless Max told Michael and
Michael told him on the way). But he didn't seem concerned about how
Max and Iz knew, as long as they "came on their own." I tend to
think he was afraid of being followed, since he was being secretive.
If Max and Iz had followed somehow, that would open the issue of how
obvious had he been, and how many people knew about his movements.

Also, on the first visit, RD starts off with "Did you see it? Did
any of you see it?" I'm not sure RD is only concerned about Michael.
He may not feel comfortable in the Anglo world, especially an
upscale neighborhood like the Evans'. Even Michael seems to sneak in
and out. I think the real explanation for RD and Michael is simply
that the creators needed a way to get Michael in the woods with Max
and Iz.

RE: the symbols

There seem to be two types of symbols involved. Some seem to be
characters in a writing system. We see several chains of characters
of the same height, and mostly the same width. None of them are
wider than they are tall. At this point, we don't know what
direction they are read, or even if they are all meaningful
characters - some may be punctuation. They seem to form a system.

They seem pretty abstract, and could indicate sounds, syllables,
words or whatever. The podsters couldn't talk when they first
hatched, but communicated telepathically. The aliens don't seem to
use speech. That would be fine, but a system to record things would
still be nice. So the characters may be words - a kind of visual
speech akin to our sign language.

Writing systems that start off with pictographs tend to gradually
become abstract. The pictures become stylized, then simplified to
make them easier to write. They may end up geometric shapes. Chinese
characters, cuneiform and Egyptian hieroglyphs went through this
process. (In the Egyptian case, the old hieroglyphs were still used
for ritualistic purposes alongside the hieratic and demotic
simplified forms. With cuneiform, the old pictographs dropped out of
use entirely. In the case of Chinese, an archaic slightly more
pictographic style stayed in use for limited purposes while people
mostly used the new and more abstract forms.) So even though the
strings of characters kind of look like an alphabet, they may not
be, especially if they are a visual language and not a recordation
of a spoken language.

In contrast are the whirlwind, the Saturn symbol, and the others. I
kind of think the scraggly thing is the podchamber mountain
(outcrop?), as someone suggested. I say that because it's hard to
get a core shape out of it that would be readily recognized. The
other symbols would still be recognizable if the shape altered a bit
as someone wrote (drew?) them. The scraggle is kind of nit-picky. It
seems to be a picture. If you don't get me, try drawing the
whirlwind, the Saturn, and the scraggle. It's pretty easy to get
something you feel looks like the first two, even if it isn't
absolutely exact. With the scraggle you feel each little wiggle in a
line is important. It feels more like a picture of a real object.

I don't know what to do with the caterpillar thing. It isn't a
string of characters. But I don't know if they are incubation pods.
They're too abstract.

[Edited by Karst on 08-03-2000 at 08:14 AM]



08-03-2000 08:01 AM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 Karst; you made some very good points... I am deeply
chagrined that I didn't think of the pictograph stuff; I should
have!
I think it's pertinant in some way that the front end (I'm assuming)
of the catapillar thing is triangular. There has been speculation
that it represents Max... since he seems to be associated with
triangles. This is a possibility. It also could be a simple
directional (go that way) or showing the direction in which the ship
travelled, if this whole thing is a map. It could represent the
ship, with each of the dots representing someone aboard, or even
perhaps a different group/faction/caste aboard (rather than
individuals).
Just some brainstorming...



08-03-2000 11:50 AM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Well, I just did some research and the angular symbol is
definately the pod chamber mountain. In "The Balance" when michael
is sick, he dreams of the symbols and we get a better look at some
of them. He looks down at the double-angled symbol, then turns and
looks directly at the mountain and the angles are the same. There is
no mistaking the intent of this scene.

The wispy, round symbol on the right, with intricate lines looks
more and more like a solar system with the 4th planet circled. It is
slightly different in different episodes.


Karst : I like your explaination of River Dog, Max, and Michael. It
sounds reasonable and most likely.



08-03-2000 03:34 PM

Karst

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 199 Hi Lorrilei1960.
Hi Palomino.

Thanks for the backup. It's nice to know my ideas are appreciated.

As for the caterpillar: It has occurred to me you might read it from
the right: people go into the open vessel, and then on the left it
crumples as it crashes. Michael thought the cave drawing was a map,
and he seems to have been right - he was just wrong about the
significance of the library and the symbol associated with it. (So
maybe the "Saturn symbol" indicates the book?) So does the point of
the caterpillar (on the left) indicate the crash spot?

As for the indistinct circular thingy: that's another one I don't
know what to make of. If the fourth planet is circled, that would be
odd. Earth, of course, is the third planet of this system. It could
refer to the home world, or to Mars. Now that's an idea - the
podsters need to retrieve the ship from the FBI, repair it, and head
to Mars for some mysterious reason. Actually, it's not as upsetting
to me as the whole destiny thing - Mars at least is in our solar
system.

Actually, I think I need to reclassify the symbols into 3
categories: 1) the strings of characters that look like an
organized, coherent writing system; 2) the true pictographs, such as
the podchamber mountain and maybe the solar system thing; 3) sybmols
like the whirlwind and the "Saturn symbol", which don't fit in the
writing system, but may not be pictographs, and may be miscellaneous
symbols (like our crosses, stars of David, various road signs, etc.)


I especially don't think the "Saturn symbol" is a pictograph. It
seems to me that we make up new words all the time, but a telepathic
race would not be able to do than an then write it down. Instead,
they may casually make up symbols to record novel ideas.

Another thing that occurred to me: the earliest Confucian writings
are so terse they are almost meaningless. A persistant theory is
that they were more like lecture notes, and intended to be
explicated by a master. Maybe the cave drawing is a mixture of
formal writing and personal notes, and need an explicator for real
understanding.

Or maybe the telepathic aliens (like Nasedo) are used to ad-hoc
symbols the way we handle neologisms, so that Nasedo expected the
podsters to figure out the non-formal parts of the map, such as the
picture of the podchamber mountain.

Happily, the various versions of the cave drawings/visions have
figured in several episodes. They seem pretty central to the search
for origins. I'm encouraged to think we will be getting better
explanations next season. (Though maybe spread out over a
tantalizing trickle.)



08-03-2000 05:46 PM

Jamethiel

    Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 14 Interesting theories on the symbolic meaning of the
"Saturn" and "Whirlwind" pictographs. I've always wondered if the
"Whirlwind" triangle isn't the symbol for Max, and the two figures
to either side, the two factions after him? Max, in essence, is the
eye of the hurricane. We know from Destiny that he is a leader...but
a leader of what? Obviously, not just the podsters... Anyway, I
bring this up because Jeff Parker, Liz's Dad says to Max: "How do
you get everyone to do what you want them to do?" And Max is so
upset by this remark that he changes the cards so Jeff can win.

It could be that the evil aliens and good aliens both want Max for a
skill he doesn't even realize he has...the ability to get people,
nations, worlds? to do what he wants. It would certainly explain
Valenti's gradual change from an enemy to a guardian.



08-03-2000 05:57 PM

Jamethiel

    Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 14 quote:


Originally posted by pixiedude




There are 2 other elements in the pic that are not part of a string
of hieroglyphics: one is below the person standing in the pic. It
looks like a)the whirlwind symbol starting to break up, or b) a
circular maze, or c) a stylized rose bud or tulip, viewed from
above. The second is almost at the bottom of the pic. It looks like
a profile of 2 jagged mountain peaks, of slightly different heights.
Perhaps these represent Micheal and Isabel.



Pixiedude! Love your descriptions of the symbols ("stylized rose bud
or tulip viewed from above")...but I'm leaning toward calling it
either a symbol for a solar system...(Ours? theirs?) or even as an
image of our Earth, as seen from space. The map could be "the story
of why and how we got here." Anyway, it will be interesting to see
how these symbols play out in the next year.

I definately side with those that see the "jagged" triangles as
representing the peak where the podsters chambers were found in
FourSquare.



08-03-2000 06:14 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 quote:


Originally posted by Jamethiel
I've always wondered if the "Whirlwind" triangle isn't the symbol
for Max, and the two figures to either side, the two factions
after him? Max, in essence, is the eye of the hurricane. We know
from Destiny that he is a leader...but a leader of what?
Obviously, not just the podsters... Anyway, I bring this up
because Jeff Parker, Liz's Dad says to Max: "How do you get
everyone to do what you want them to do?" And Max is so upset by
this remark that he changes the cards so Jeff can win.




Or maybe he was just sucking up to his girlfriend's dad.


quote:



It could be that the evil aliens and good aliens both want Max for
a skill he doesn't even realize he has...the ability to get
people, nations, worlds? to do what he wants. It would certainly
explain Valenti's gradual change from an enemy to a guardian.



If he is the center of the storm (or the apex of the triangle),
perhaps he was at the center of the original conflict. Maybe he was
the child of the leaders of the two different factions... therefore
important to both sides. If you look at him as a messianic figure,
it could also be that they count on him to unify the two factions.





08-03-2000 06:40 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 Karst, thanks for your enlightening posts! You are very
clever.

Of all the theories that have come about on symbols, I think them
all valid. When I look at the image of the map, I see everything
that has been mentioned in the thread. I see many layers of
communication and I no longer believe that the map has just one
meaning.

Does anyone else get the feeling that the message in the cave is
more than just a map?

Qfanny

[Edited by Qfanny on 08-03-2000 at 06:44 PM]



08-03-2000 07:17 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Qfanny : Yes, I agree with you that the cave drawings
have a double meaning. I think that RD told us about one when he
said that Nasedo was afraid they were going to kill him, so he drew
the cave symbols and left, telling RD only to show them to another
one like him that could pass the test.

I think this told us several things :

1. Nasedo was leaving a message for others that were either other
crash survivors who had been separated, or a rescue party.

2. The message must have explained what had happened and what Nasedo
was going to do (pod chamber, etc.)

3. The map was hidden in the message. Did Michael find it when he
placed the stones in the V formation?

4. Nasedo would not want humans or evil aliens to find and desipher
the message/map. When Nasedo told RD that anyone would have to pass
the test and be like him, Nasedo was revealing that the evil aliens
are not like him, because they do not have the same powers. I must
admit, I missed this tidbit until today when I rewatched "Balance"
and "River Dog". I guess this means that evil aliens can only be
told from HUMANS by the evil within.

It's getting late; did that make any sense?

[Edited by Palomino on 08-03-2000 at 07:22 PM]



08-04-2000 03:26 AM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
Qfanny :
4. Nasedo would not want humans or evil aliens to find and
desipher the message/map. When Nasedo told RD that anyone would
have to pass the test and be like him, Nasedo was revealing that
the evil aliens are not like him, because they do not have the
same powers. I must admit, I missed this tidbit until today when I
rewatched "Balance" and "River Dog". I guess this means that evil
aliens can only be told from HUMANS by the evil within.

It's getting late; did that make any sense?

[Edited by Palomino on 08-03-2000 at 07:22 PM]



All four points make perfect sense. I admit, I hadn't thought about
point 4 either, when you say the evil aliens are not like him,
because they do not have the same powers. If this is true, then the
message in the cave is definately more than a map. So far, it seems
the evil aliens are a head of the pod squad. They know where they
are, the pod squad is still trying to figure out the basics; powers,
who they are, their roles.

quote:


I guess this means that evil aliens can only be told from HUMANS
by the evil within.




I'm not quite sure if I follow this line of reasoning. It's rather
exciting to think about though from a plot outlook. I think everyone
agrees that the HUMANS- Liz, Alex, Mari, Sheriff, and now Kyle are
important! (There's a certain duh factor in this.)

Could you elaborate a bit more. Maybe I'm struggling because I've
never seen Balanced and its so important to the SF of Roswell and
this eppy in particular.

PS: For everyone- lurkers and posters-- have fun at the party this
weekend if you are going. Unfortuantely, I have to work
Please be safe and come back! I'll be thinking of all of you.



08-04-2000 07:01 AM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
On Tess's school records her mother's name was given as Sheila -
is this just coincidence?



What an intriguing find!

One possibility is that it reinforces the interpretation I proposed
on a recent thread: [that BN wanted to engineer a impostor to
substitute for Liz, and killed Sheila Hubble in order to steal the
human genetic material he needed. He targeted her because she was
pregnant and resembled Liz. This would explain some things.] See the
post of 7-23 06:30 PM:
http://www.fanforum.com/forum/upload/showthread.php?threadid=38889&pagenumber=4


T his clue looks exceedingly important, whether or not my theory is
on the right track. I am very glad to get this extra piece of the
puzzle. (I wanted to express my admiration sooner, but lately the
board has been hard to reach in my time zone.)

[Edited by Nemo on 08-04-2000 at 07:33 AM]



08-04-2000 07:07 AM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Qfanny : Sorry. I don't always explain what I say,
because I am in a hurry. My server disconnects me after so many
minutes if I stay in one place, and it's a hassle getting back on.

My line(possibly crooked) of reasoning was this:
1. In "Destiny", Mommy told them they could only tell the enemy by
the evil within, but Mommy (as usual) did not say who you couldn't
tell them apart from (except by the evil within.
2. We know that humans and SSers can be told apart, so which one are
the evil aliens like?
3. In "RD", when Max asked River Dog about "the man", RD told him
that he(Nasedo) said not to show the cave drawings to anyone unless
they could pass the test. Max did by making his hands glow bluish to
make light in the cave when he thought Liz was in danger. RD said no
one else had come. Since Max had shown a relatively simple power
that probably any of the podsters could have shown, it looks like
Nasedo did not want any other species to find the map/drawing. If
the evil aliens had found the map, they might have found the pod
chamber and slain or snatched the podsters (since they have been
fighting the SSers, they probably know the language and could read
the message). This would have been less likely for the humans, but
still, why take chances? Anyhow, Nasedo was excluding any species
that couldn't do his type of "tricks", and trusting only those who
could, so to me that says, "The evil aliens are like humans rather
than SSers". It's still a jump and the writers could still have the
enemy using powers, but it would make Nasedo look rather foolish.



08-04-2000 07:29 AM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Nemo : Did you also notice her place of birth - Omaha,
Nebraska. Abreviated it cold be made into O.N.E. Also, as a kid, I
watched "Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingdom" and the logo for this
insurance Co was an Indian's head. OK, maybe that's stretching
things a bit...

Anyhow, I have a weak theory on what the V in the cave wall means,
but I didn't spell it out well, since I can't redraw it to explain.
Basically it is this:

If you start at the top of each side and follow it down, each side
is a brief summary of two opposing sides, both converging at the
podsters. The top of one side is the whirlwind the top of the other
is the "Saturn". I think GN's side is the whirlwind (orbs, etc.),
and I think the Saturn-like one is the symbol for BN's side - who
Michael called by accident. Can this fit into your theory? What do
you think?



08-04-2000 08:20 AM

Karst

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 199 QFanny: I'm glad you found something worthwhile in all
that.

Palomino: I'd thought Nasedo just wanted to keep humans out, esp.
the FBI. But I got that idea before we knew about evil aliens, and I
didn't think to reconsider it. Since the evil aliens didn't know
about Roswell until the momogram, they probably weren't in the area
back then. But they could have been focused Nasedo, and didn't
realize the pods were also in the area. Except it would seem kind of
logical to look for the pods near Nasedo where he could look after
them. So I suspect evil aliens weren't actually around Roswell then,
but Nasedo may have been unsure whether it was just the FBI after
him or whether the evil aliens were also flocking.

It is comforting to think that the evil aliens either don't have
special powers, or have more limited powers than the podsters.

As for the V-shape on the map: my thought is that if the V is
superimposed on a map, the point indicates something significant.
It's like a crude arrow sign. People tend to analyze the V separate
from the map. But it's part of the map like the symbols, except it
was hidden - and revealing it with the stones made it especially
obvious.

To go gack to my on-going lecture on writing and symbolism: even
arrow signs can be less obvious than we think. People in some
cultures that don't use arrow signs think they indicate danger or
fighting. So even with a sign that looks intuitively obvious to us,
the meaning is actually based on a learned association.

But I don't think the people who created the V idea were thinking
along those lines. I think the V is either indicating something to
be found at it's point, or else it's pointing to something
especially significant. Unfortunately, even when Michael and Isabel
found out about the book, I don't think they found out where it had
been hidden. And I don't think Michael and Isabel told Max exactly
where they burned the symbol on the lawn. So they don't seem to have
realized that Michael was right, except that the map was indicating
the book was hidden in the library.



08-04-2000 09:45 AM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Originally posted by Karst :

I think the V is either indicating something to be found at it's
point, or else it's pointing to something especially significant.

Karst, did you understand that the point of the V is the point of
the pod chamber mountain? I think I posted it on another thread, and
will try to transfer it here. If it doesn't work, sorry. I just need
five minutes.

Wow! It actually worked. OK, anyhow, this is what I had posted on
the R&I thread :

The mountain symbol is definately the pod chamber mountain. If you
watch "The Balance", when Michael is dreaming, he looks down at the
symbol, then turns and looks up at the mountain, which had been
outlined by the symbol. Unmistakably the pod chamber mountain.

About the V that Michael made with the healing stones on the cave
wall:

1. The top left one was in the triangle at the center of the
whirlwind.
2. The middle one on the left was in the dot that was on the
outside(left side) of the cell figures.
3. The bottom one in the center sits right at the top of the
mountain symbol.
4. Going up the right side, the middle one is at the center of the
solar system-looking drawing - replacing the star.
5. When M/L were in the library, Liz said this was Venus and
completed the V formation. It sits in the middle of the Saturn-like
symbol.



[Edited by Palomino on 08-04-2000 at 10:01 AM]



08-04-2000 07:56 PM

Karst

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 199 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino


Karst, did you understand that the point of the V is the point of
the pod chamber mountain? I think I posted it on another thread,
and will try to transfer it here. If it doesn't work, sorry. I
just need five minutes.





Sorry, I didn't. I was working from memory and I rememberd the cave
scene as being hard to see, at least with my reception. I'm in a
rural area. I usually don't get a crystal clear image with the WB,
even with cable. All the other channels are much clearer. Actually,
my memory may be exagerrating how hard things were to see. Anyway .
. .

Thanks for the details.



08-04-2000 08:34 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 I kind of think there may have been an evil alien lurking
around Roswell. It is the town closest to the crash site. Wouldn't
it make sense for their team to leave someone to leave someone there
to see if any thing developed. That is of course assuming that they
knew of the "cloning the leader" plan. Or perhaps, instead, they
left something that would indicate when the podsters finally came
out of hiding.... something that would signal them.
I do agree that the V is part of a map... but it's interesting that
the star map is only completed when Venus moves in to the correct
position. This is significant in some way.... hopefully we'll find
the answer come second season!



08-04-2000 11:27 PM

Karst

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 199 Sorry. Double post.

[Edited by Karst on 08-04-2000 at 11:44 PM]



08-04-2000 11:34 PM

Karst

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 199 quote:


Originally posted by Lorrilei1960

I do agree that the V is part of a map... but it's interesting
that the star map is only completed when Venus moves in to the
correct position. This is significant in some way.... hopefully
we'll find the answer come second season!



Since the V is complete only during a specific period, it may
indicate that these places have special significance during that
period. Maybe the podsters hatched when the V was complete? Or the
podchamber can only be accesed during this time? Maybe the book
couldn't be retrieved just any time - only during the period when
the formation was complete. It could be a security device. People
can't just poke around - they have to know when to do it. This might
be one more reason the Nasedos come to town around this time: while
the podchamber, etc. are inaccessable, they can be left alone;
during the more vulnerable period, they need watching. Maybe more
revelations are due next May, if the series gets nine more episodes
Also, there was a lot about biological drives being awakened during
this time. Would the accessibility of the places/objects coincide
with an increased urge to find them? Or maybe an increased need for
them? If things are going to be accessible only for a limited
period, it makes sense to make the period coincide with the period
when the things are most needed.

Actually, the creators need to get cracking to get approval for nine
more episodes. So I kind of doubt this idea will get much use.
Whatever the podsters discover, I'm sure it won't wait for the
heavens to align again. I still kind of like the idea, if I do say
so myself.

[Edited by Karst on 08-04-2000 at 11:50 PM]


08-04-2000 11:54 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 229 quote:


Originally posted by Karst
Unfortunately, even when Michael and Isabel found out about the
book, I don't think they found out where it had been hidden. And I
don't think Michael and Isabel told Max exactly where they burned
the symbol on the lawn. So they don't seem to have realized that
Michael was right, except that the map was indicating the book was
hidden in the library.



I'm not sure about them telling Max about burning the symbol, but
I'm pretty sure that Tess revealed to Michael where the book was
found when she handed the book to him in the pod chamber.

I had an interesting thought regarding Riverdog's reaction to Max.
Could his reactions to Max be due to an uncanny resemblance to the
visitor he knew back in '47? It would explain his wariness toward
him; is this Max or Nasedo that he's speaking to-type situation?
Just a stray thought.



08-05-2000 12:56 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 605 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
...Anyhow, I have a weak theory on what the V in the cave wall
means, but I didn't spell it out well, since I can't redraw it to
explain. Basically it is this:

If you start at the top of each side and follow it down, each side
is a brief summary of two opposing sides, both converging at the
podsters. The top of one side is the whirlwind the top of the
other is the "Saturn". I think GN's side is the whirlwind (orbs,
etc.), and I think the Saturn-like one is the symbol for BN's side
- who Michael called by accident.



Variation on that theme: the Evil Aliens and the Good Aliens were
descending upon a planet very near Earth (venus)from different
directions (don't know why--maybe the Evil guys came from a
different home planet originally) to intervene in different ways.



08-05-2000 09:04 AM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 Shapteshifter... I like that idea. It makes a lot of
sense if you put it together with Karst's theory.
Karst said that maybe the significance of the V shape forming when
Venus is aligned has to do with a security measure... some things
(like the book/podchamber/etc.) are only accessible when the V
constellation is formed.
Ooooooo, even if this is not what the writer's intended, it's pretty
darn clever!



08-05-2000 10:21 AM

bluecornmoon

Dedicated     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 126 Or, since time and time again, it has been established
that Liz is Venus (Balance: "my parents went camping...Venus in the
morning sky..", Max: "I thought she was in front of me!", etc.) and
perfect (LN: "let us see your perfect overbite" - 285: "the perfect
Liz Parker lying to her parents?", etc.) and she also got the "urge"
(SH)at the right time, could it be that she is the last piece that's
needed to complete the formation - the last element that will make
the alliance complete in order to achieve whatever it is that they
need to achieve: peace, freedom from the conquerors, whatever? Max
needs Liz not only on a personal, romantic level, but also on a
galactic scale because without her he'll not be able to achieve his
goals! Of course, he will find out in Season 3 or 4 what we've known
all along!

[Edited by bluecornmoon on 08-05-2000 at 10:25 AM]



08-05-2000 12:43 PM

pieface

Dedicated     Registered: Mar 2000     Posts: 259 Bluecornmoon: "...and they lived happily ever after...."
no matter what planet they live on.

[Edited by pieface on 08-05-2000 at 12:54 PM]



08-05-2000 01:48 PM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 bluecornmoon, I feel sure you are right about that. The
dove of Peace has a broken wing that Max could mend, but only
together with Liz.

(City-park pigeons really are doves, right? Rock Doves.)



08-05-2000 08:38 PM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 quote:


Originally posted by pixiedude on The Science Fiction of the Toy
House

1) There was a lot of orange onscreen tonight. [Toy House.] There
was often orange lighting in scenes where you wouldn't have
expected it....

5) There's a hand-painted poster that shows up in a couple of
shots during the game. It shows an orange ball, darker near the
edges, brighter in the middle. In context, it's supposed to
resemble a basketball. It has a big yellow "GO" painted over it.
The word "ROSWELL" is painted in black underneath. Around the ball
are lines that indicate motion, and possibly heat. It looked like
there was a tan hand on one side and a gray hand on the other, but
I couldn't be sure. It made me think of Nemo's theory about an
exploding red star.




Here's that banner at the basketball game.



After SH first aired, there seemed to be near-consensus that the
aliens' home world in the Whirlwind Galaxy had been destroyed,
apparently as a result of its star turning into a red giant. [So it
wasn't just my theory. Elliott, for one, reached it long before I
did. (I kept trying to reconcile real astrophysical timescales; only
when I gave that up did other clues fall into place.) And yes,
Palomino, I know this takes artistic license to an extreme: a
multi-millionfold speedup. But movie speedups being commonplace, I
hope we can let this one pass.]

The episodes leading up to SH seem to be hinting that the home
world's sun is nearing its end. Like Izzy's cell phone, it's
"desperately low on minutes." Now, in Movies 101 there seems to be a
rule that every ticking time bomb shall be equipped with conspicuous
time-to-go indicator. Roswell, a little more subtle, seems to use a
color progression to convey the sense of time running out: yellow -
orange - red, relying on our familiarity with traffic lights. In an
early episode (Monsters, cut scene) Isabel, riding with Maria,
primes our thoughts in this direction: "Green means Go even where I
come from." In Toy House she mentions the yellow sun. That seems to
mark the onset of an Orange Period observed by pixiedude. This
continues (more or less) up to SH, after which I think we see a lot
more red; a little later we hear about someplace with people in it
destroyed by fire.

Some items from the current episode (ITW) reinforce this pattern:
Bus loading scene Bus has an orange stripe; camera sweeps this and
dwells briefly on a red taillight (not yet lit), then shifts
abruptly. Valenti remarks "Squeezed another year out of it." On the
fence is a banner like the one pixiedude mentioned, maybe the same
one. (Watch as Alex goes to his father.) The basketball game, where
such a banner was seen earlier, is another situation where a clock
ticks down.

Liz and Maria had orange or red sweaters. (Not long ago we saw
Isabel alternating lipstick colors orange/red.) The flyers Alex
handed out for the campout (mostly on orange paper?) showed a
central fire with rings around it. In a later episode Isabel remarks
"You can never have too much sunshine." (Irony?)

I wonder whether the bus loading also symbolizes some evacuation of
the home world. I got a similar feeling in ID, when Amy sends
Michael urgently away just after we are given a close-up of that
curiously globe-shaped lamp on a night stand in Maria's bedroom (the
usual place for an alarm clock?) Or when Michael hitchhikes out of
town as someone is singing "40 miles from the sun..."

[Edited by Nemo on 08-06-2000 at 06:15 PM]



08-05-2000 10:49 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 605 Nemo, I have long (excuse me while I trip over the white
beard that has grown since the first airing of the SH) accepted the
dying Red Sun theory, but had not noticed the color symbolism. If I
ever write a novel, I promise to use your green to yellow to orange
to red (and then to green again?) symbolism and give you credit in
the dedication.



08-05-2000 10:53 PM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 Here are a few more 4's and 3's, so those who have seen
enough of those can skip this.

The reason I mention these is that they seem to partly support the
conjecture (presented more fully on former threads, but somewhat
scattered around) that

a) Of the four former persons mentioned by AlienMom, who were to be
remade into alien-human hybrids, one was lost and three remain:
M/M/I

b) Of that fourth one, what was lost was the alien-human hybrid
form. But a way was found to salvage at least part of the "essence"
and somehow convey that eventually to a human child, Liz. (Not with
all the same special physical powers, but still with some special
personal qualities.) I think this was done by GN ("good Nasedo" or
TicTac or whatever you call him, the one who trusted River Dog's
people and Atherton; not Harding/Nasedo, who looks like an enemy,
or, if he means to be a friend, he's the kind that makes you almost
prefer your enemies.).

In view of Liz's remark that Grandma C. is "the basis of my
existence" (among other things) it seems clear GC cooperated in
this, and I think we have seen re-enactments of how GN began to win
her over and enlist her aid. Maria signing up Liz for a blind date
seems symbolic of GC "signing up" Liz for the Blind Date of her
life!

c) Thus, Liz now has that fourth role. I can't call her the "fourth
podster" because she was never in a pod, but I hope you see what I
mean, that (I think) she is now the fourth person who was supposed
to be in the pod squad. So that there is symbolic beauty in the
opening scene where the camera descends from starry skies down onto
Liz on her balcony: Even though she's human, something of her nature
really has come from beyond those stars. (Maybe that's why it's
sometimes difficult for her mother to relate.)

I think that's what at least some of the 4's and 3's are telling us.
I listed lots of them earlier, and by now have seen so many "as
'twere tedious to relate." (If that point wasn't passed long ago.)
But a few more seem noteworthy. In the poker game, look at the aces
Max held: Spades -- a one-lobed symbol. Clubs: 3 lobes. Diamonds: a
4-pointed symbol. (Aside: he demoted that ace to a two, changing a
card of the highest power to the lowest. Sometime in the story, past
or future, will we see Max or someone like him set aside kingly
power in order to be free to marry the one he loves?)

The diamond shape comes up often. (Like the 3 diamonds at the Evans
house and another at the cafe often seen in conjunction with Liz.)
ITW, Michael's blanket had diamond patterns. His sweatshirt had 4
diamonds making one large one. Similar, smaller figures are
sometimes seen in necklaces on Liz or Isabel.

My favorite 3/4 example is the musical one. Half of it I told
already, but the other half only just sank in. Remember when Maria
joined Alex's band? She called for an E-flat, the root tone of the
scale that has 3 flats. Whereas, when Liz was in the band room with
Max (in the pilot, picture displayed earlier), there was a scale on
the board behind her in 4 flats, and she stood precisely in front of
the fourth one.

Doesn't it look as if the show's creators are telling us something
about Liz with such things? (It's hard to believe it was all
unintentional. Those notes were written only just far apart enough
for Liz's face to fit between the Bb and the Eb, covering up the Db.
A few inches either way would have altered the effect. And Maria had
at least 11 other choices besides Eb.)

So maybe I have to reduce my altered-Liz theory, which was pretty
minimal to begin with. If there has been alteration (from what would
otherwise have been), maybe some of it was done long ago, and
revealed recently, when Max connected with her. Max to Liz: "it was
before your time."

[Edited by Nemo on 08-05-2000 at 11:26 PM]



08-05-2000 11:02 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 605 Nemo, returning to Earth and more superficial
interpretations: Let's not forget on last week's ep (ITW) that Liz
says to Max, "You made me a part of this."



08-05-2000 11:15 PM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 Shapeshifter, thanks for your interest. I accept your
point (and toned down my last paragraph a little in view of it). I
thought I saw a solution to the paradox that much seems to point to
Liz being altered, but Mr. Brown is said to have denied knowing of
it. But, hearing of his word about thirdhand, maybe I have
misunderstood it. Perhaps he only denied some particular biochemical
mechanism of alteration, and not the whole idea of alteration in
general. Or maybe he was just not giving anything away. Anyway, I
don't want to insist on any theory of mine. I just enjoy finding
ways to make some odd pieces fit, but others may have found better
ways.

[Edited by Nemo on 08-05-2000 at 11:41 PM]



08-06-2000 05:26 AM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 About the dying star theory :

What they showed us was a BLACK HOLE with its accretion ring. I
won't even go into all the other science on why this is not
possible, but here are some other things to concider :

1. If Mommy's planet is dying, there is no point in going back to
free it. She would certainly have known this. There would have been
no mission. She would just have been happy to get them to safety.
2. What if the evil aliens are the ones with a dying planet? That
could be their motivation for taking over Max's homeworld.
3. It is more likely that the evil aliens are enslaving Max's people
because they want the planet. What would they want with a dying
world?
4. Why hunt the leader of a dead world? Who is he going to lead and
where if there is no homeworld? If he was just a gift to Earth,
Mommy didn't say that.
5. What if the bad aliens are here to take over us because just
Max's world is not big enough to support their entire population? Or
maybe they just are a speading empire?

Anyhow, I hope Roswell stays science-fiction instead of
fantasy-fiction. With Ron Moore, I think they will be sci-fi.



08-06-2000 07:23 AM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 Palomino, maybe the scientific fidelity of the show will
increase next season, as you suggest. I don't dispute that. (Last
season the show seemed more intent on resonating with many classic
stories for dramatic impact.)

But on your opening point about the black hole there appears to be a
persistent misunderstanding between us. Let me try just once more,
and ask you to attend closely even if my writing is difficult. (If
this fails again I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.)

I know that scene with the black hole and its accretion ring. (When
people first asked my interpretation of that scene, that is just
what I said. I even pointed out that the some of the red in the
accretion ring could be due to a gravitational redshift of the
barely-excaping light, strengthening the identification of the
blackness as a black hole. Further, I pointed out, just as you did
recently, that the viewpoint seems to enter this object. This entry
was quickly recognized as suggesting a possible means
(wormhole-portal idea) of long-range travel or even time travel.)
So, Palomino, please do not imagine that I confuse the black-hole
scene with a red star; I worked as hard as anyone to dispel that
confusion. The black-hole scene has nothing at all to do with the
evidence for the "dying-star theory."

I think the story uses other means to tell us that the home world
was obliterated. (The means seem too elaborate for me to dismiss
merely on grounds of scientific implausibility.) If this is the
correct interpretation, then there is obviously a problem of how to
reconcile this with the Momogram.

The only solution I see right now is to interpret the Momogram as a
recording made before the danger of the dying sun was detected. (I
know, scientifically accurate timescales would rule this out. I
can't help that. This is fiction.) In the story it looks as if the
home world was visited by not one calamity but two in quick
succession. First the conflict Mom told about, leading to the
podsters' mission to Earth. Then the exploding star. The latter was
seen from at least one of the ships already en route (I know, that
should be hard to see while outrunning the light....), so some of
the adult aliens now on Earth may know about it, but apparently Mom
didn't when making the recording.

There are other difficulties with this, and I don't have answers to
all of them. I am puzzled by Mom's choice of tense and viewpoint in
saying that the enemies "have come to Earth." I am eagerly waiting
for more of the story to tell what that means.

Meanwhile, I could easily be wrong about some of this. (Or the new
writers could revise the intended story, making all this-year
interpretations unassailable.) I would be happy to hear solutions
that fit the story facts better.

If that was the home world we saw (in SH) getting obliterated, then,
regardless of the exact cause, there are further obvious questions.
Was there enough warning for some to escape? (Were there enough
"lifeboats"? Have the writers given us symbolic hints of an
evacuation? If so, what story do these symbols suggest, or is it too
vague to discern?) I imagine questions of what happened to Mom and
her people will be part of the mystery and suspense in seasons to
come.

[Edited by Nemo on 08-06-2000 at 08:52 AM]



08-06-2000 09:04 AM

Reggie

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
I think the story uses other means to tell us that the home world
was obliterated. (The means seem too elaborate for me to dismiss
merely on grounds of scientific implausibility.) If this is the
correct interpretation, then there is obviously a problem of how
to reconcile this with the Momogram.

The only solution I see right now is to interpret the Momogram as
a recording made before the danger of the dying sun was detected.
(...)

There are other difficulties with this, and I don't have answers
to all of them. I am puzzled by Mom's choice of tense and
viewpoint in saying that the enemies "have come to Earth." I am
eagerly waiting for more of the story to tell what that means.

Meanwhile, I could easily be wrong about some of this. (Or the new
writers could revise the intended story, making all this-year
interpretations unassailable.) So I don't insist.

[Edited by Nemo on 08-06-2000 at 07:53 AM]



I'm lost. As a professional driver, I suppose it's an occupational
hazard. Could you please tell me where we get the "red sun" in the
first place? It seems to me that to accumulate evidence to support
it is fine, but it needs an explicit reference as an anchor and we
don't have that.

I'll buy the countdown / time running out references, but I'd think
that it's a reference to the ongoing destruction of Max's people by
enslavement. We do have an anchor for this, in the Mom-o-gram. It
makes sense that Mom would want them to come home and rescue them
from their enemies, as she said. We also have the FBI (and possibly
the bad aliens) closing in on Max, so an element of urgency is
appropriate.

It does not make sense for there to be an additional peril (the
destruction of their planet itself) which a.) there is no explicit
reference to, b.) they can't do anything about, and c.) wipes out
the specified peril. In this scenario, Max & Co. have no enemies to
fight, since they are all that's left of their planet: why bother
them? Yet we know (we think) that there are active Alien Bad Guys.
They can't be fighting Max, to save planetary destruction?

We need Mom, and the Homeworld, so that the Bad Aliens have
something to fight for. If it's all gone, then they have no reason
to fight.



08-06-2000 12:16 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Reggie : Thank you for understanding my post.

Nemo : I understand now that you don't think the black hole was a
red giant (with so many people thinking the opposite, it's hard to
keep straight who believes what), but that was not really the point
of the post. What I was trying to say was that it makes no sense
from a plot viewpoint to make their world a dying one IMHO.

1. The evil aliens would not want to take over a dying planet.
2. Evil aliens would not care about the defunct leader of a dying
planet.
3. Mommy would not want them to come back and would have sent a
message to that effect, even if she had to broadcast it to the whole
Earth to make sure the adults got the message. (This is assuming she
didn't know it was dying when she sent them here.)
4. Basically, the two plots don't fit together, and can not coexist.

5. They already have a plot, such as it is , and it would be
detrimental not just to backpedal, but to wipe out the plot they
built and make up another one that does not fit what they have done
so far.





08-06-2000 03:16 PM

bluecornmoon

Dedicated     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 126 I understand that a part of Mommy's speech, which was cut
and is available to be read at Karola's
http://www.roswellscrips.com, very clearly stated that she wanted
the evil aliens to be stopped from taking over Earth, so that it may
not suffer the same fate her planet did. Mommy made it appear as if
that was the squad's first priority. Their traveling back home to
save them was only secondary to that!
Would that help in your discussion?



08-06-2000 04:10 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Bluecornmoon :
Hmmmm...yes. I'll check it out. Thank you!



08-06-2000 05:52 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated     Registered: Jul 2000     Posts: 170 Regarding the RD & Michael relationship-- and the
speculations why RD went to Michael.

When I was looking through the ITTW script on
http://www.roswellscripts.com I found something I don't think anyone
has mentioned.

River Dog says Michael reminds him of Nasedo. Alone, angry,
confused. I don't recall this being used in the eppy.

I only thought of it because of Blue's suggestion.

Qfanny



08-06-2000 06:39 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 645 quote:


Originally posted by Reggie

As a professional driver, I suppose it's an occupational hazard.
Could you please tell me where we get the "red sun" in the first
place? It seems to me that to accumulate evidence to support it is
fine, but it needs an explicit reference as an anchor and we don't
have that.

I'll buy the countdown / time running out references, but I'd
think that it's a reference to the ongoing destruction of Max's
people by enslavement. We do have an anchor for this, in the
Mom-o-gram. It makes sense that Mom would want them to come home
and rescue them from their enemies, as she said. We also have the
FBI (and possibly the bad aliens) closing in on Max, so an element
of urgency is appropriate.

It does not make sense for there to be an additional peril (the
destruction of their planet itself) which a.) there is no explicit
reference to, b.) they can't do anything about, and c.) wipes out
the specified peril. In this scenario, Max & Co. have no enemies
to fight, since they are all that's left of their planet: why
bother them? Yet we know (we think) that there are active Alien
Bad Guys. They can't be fighting Max, to save planetary
destruction?

We need Mom, and the Homeworld, so that the Bad Aliens have
something to fight for. If it's all gone, then they have no reason
to fight.



The original reference came in Sexual Healing. Liz is looking at a
big poster in the science room and notices the red star which she
saw in her vision. She asks the teacher about it and they discuss
it. I think some of us have assumed it is the alien's home planet's
sun.
As far as the additional peril, someone else mentioned that the
recording may have been made before they were aware of what was
happening. Nemo, I know has said that it takes much longer for a
star to grow so large so fast. However, we don't know how long the
voyage to Earth actually took.



08-06-2000 09:20 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 605 Reggie, if Lorrilei's post was the equivalent of "get off
at the third exit, turn left at the second stoplight and you can't
miss it, " here is the AAA map of the area to which she referred
(the transcript):quote:


LIZ: Yeah, what is this?

ASTRO TEACHER: ah. Well, that's the Whirlwind Galaxy.

LIZ: Could there be a red star, or a red something in this area
that isn't on this chart?

ASTRO TEACHER: Well, there could be a red giant.

LIZ: A red giant. Isn't that...yeah, that's a star that's in its
last stages of its life cycle, right?

ASTRO TEACHER: Yes. A+ yet again. The problem is, the light from a
red giant is weak...so weak we usually can't pick it up with our
telescopes.

LIZ: Oh. Um, well, thank you very much.

ASTRO TEACHER: May I ask what has inspired your sudden interest in
astronomy?

(Max walks into the room and Liz steals a glance at him before
answering)

LIZ: It's just beautiful...the universe is beautiful.

ASTRO TEACHER: Yes...lovely. Ah. I see your partner in crime. Here
are your detention assignments.

(Mr. Seligman hands each of them a sheet of paper and then walks
towards Liz)

ASTRO TEACHER: You are an excellent student, Ms. Parker. I'd hate
to see anything get between you and the...uh...beauty of the
universe.

(Mr. Seligman leaves)

MAX: What was that about?

LIZ: Uh, Max, I have to show you something. Max, you know the
things I saw, the stars and everything? I didn't make them up.
They're real. Max, I saw this. I saw it. Max, this afternoon...I
think I saw the crash.



So, does this mean that the "red star" was or was not a red star?


And Nemo, I should have put a in my last post; I didn't mean to
discourage your musings. Even though I don't always choose to follow
where they lead, I think you come up with some good stuff along the
way. Re the color theory: did you include the red sneakers?


[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-07-2000 at 08:21 AM]



08-06-2000 10:10 PM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 Reggie and Palomino, here's how I see the story evidence
in question.

Liz's series of visions in SH look like chronological highlights of
a space journey to Earth from some unknown place X. I'll assume it's
a planet.

Observed on the journey were:

1. Stars, "warp speed."
2. An explosion, scattering debris, which seems to be subject to a
downward gravitional pull. (Unlike the straight-line starstreaks in
#1. Hard to tell #1 and #2 apart otherwise; they are so close
together in time.)
3. Spiral galaxy.
4. Black sphere with reddish debris in midplane (hence only the
upper hemisphere of black is discernible) Our viewpoint appears to
be moving into the blackness.
5. Stars, Mars, Earth, crash to ground.

My present interpretation:

1. The ship leaves X. Faster-than-light travel appears to be
suggested.
2. Planet X is obliterated as they look back on it. (Remarkable that
they can see that, while outrunning the light.)
3. They get beyond their galaxy and look back at it.
4. They use a black hole as a portal to a wormhole or some such
shortcut (or time-travel means).
5. The aliens arrive in our galaxy and soon our solar system, then
crash to earth.

[Reconsider step 2. I haven't proved the obliterated object was
planet X; it could have been something else. But there is a
noticeable gravitational pull on it, as of a star on a planet. Once
the ship was away from its planet of origin, why pass so near to
another planet? And I assume the writers are playing fair with us:
since the rest of the travel account is very spare, I assume
location #2 is also important to the story.]

In the science classroom, Liz asks the teacher about the galaxy
poster. He identifies it as the Whirlwind Galaxy. She asks, "Could
there be a red star, or a red something in this area that isn't on
this chart?" Apparently she recognizes a pattern in the area in
question, but the pattern as she remembers it includes a red star
(or something) that is missing from observations made by Earth-based
telescopes. (To get that partial match to the pattern, the vision in
question would have to be from around stage 3 on the list above, not
4. The perspective would have to be roughly the same as from our
system, but closer up, so that fainter objects were still
discernible.)

This seems to establish that the source of the vision really has
been near the Whirlwind Galaxy, in order to have seen things there
that can't be seen from Earth. To help us draw this inference, the
writers have Max walk us through a parallel case involving the
girls' locker room.

About Liz's question, the answer I would want to give her is that,
to see an individual star at the distance in question, the star
would have to be both large and hot, like a blue giant. Thus any red
star, even a giant, could fail to show because it's not hot enough.
The writers have the teacher specifically mention red giants, beyond
what was needed to answer the question, as if they want us to be
thinking about red giants for another reason. Since this is just
after we saw some astronomical object destroyed, it is natural to
think the writers are suggesting a red giant as a cause of the
destruction. Especially with all the other hints about heat, that
song refrain "40 miles from the sun," etc.

I admit the evidence is only suggestive, not definitive. (I would be
happy to see a better way to account for most of the same
observations.) Is destruction of the home planet irreconcilable with
the rest of the plot? I feel I don't know the rest of the plot well
enough to to judge that yet. I'll stick to smaller issues than the
grand scheme of things. And I'll bear your ideas in mind.

[Edited by Nemo on 08-07-2000 at 05:38 PM]



08-06-2000 10:23 PM

Nemo

Addicted     Registered: Dec 1999     Posts: 510 Hi, shapeshifter, you're quicker than I am.

I forgot the red sneakers. If you think they are significant, let
them be added to the list.

N.



08-06-2000 10:46 PM

Palomino

Dedicated     Registered: Jun 2000     Posts: 399 Shapeshifter : Of course, the science teacher involved in
the discussion was the same one that said hydrogen, carbon, and
oxygen were around since the first moments of the Big Bang!



08-07-2000 08:25 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted     Registered: May 2000     Posts: 605 P.
Of course Roswellian astronomy is taught by Roswellian Astronomy
high school teachers







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