The Science Fiction of Max to the Max - Fan Forum This topic was 5 pages long. MoonFire     Posts:518    Registered: Nov 1999 posted 05-01-2000 04:03 PM Please post all discussion of the Science Fiction aspects of Max to the Max here crzyroswellchic     Posts:253    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-01-2000 06:17 PM bump LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-01-2000 08:24 PM Max to the Max advanced the show's alien mythology as well as bringing us back to the conspiracy plotline introduced in Crazy. Some interesting SF elements it employs and questions it evokes are: 1) MADE NOT BORN. We now find out that our alien quartet are human--sort of. Michael refers to them as being "engineered" not born. If this is true then who made them? For what purpose were they bioengineered? Why are they in human form? This new revelation opens up endless possibilities and questions. In some ways it draws them closer to their human friends (our aliens are now "human" we are told) while at the same time driving a wedge between them (M/I/Mi are "made" -- bioengineered -- not born). 2) WHAT MAKES A HUMAN? If our aliens are "made" does it make them any less human? Is being "human" simply looking human? Or is it acting/feeling human? Is Mr Harding (who is an alien without emotion) human? Is Max? If emotions are what separate them, do emotions constitute the essentially human? Is Tess human? She was willing to ignore Liz because Liz really didn't matter to the alien mandate. Was Tess being human then or alien? 3) WHAT MAKES "DESTINY" POWERFUL? I found myself wondering at times just what is the nature (not content) of this "destiny". It obviously operates on a biological level, but what gives it the power to induce those visions? And did the constellation that awakened this destiny in our aliens awaken something in Liz as well? Did you catch the references to Liz and her healing in this episode? Is Liz now linked to this destiny because of Max's healing her and her subsequent relationship to Max? Remember the Max and Tess dialogue: Tess: Liz is human--she has nothing to do with us. Max: No, YOU have nothing to do with us. 4) THE SHAPESHIFTER. We now find out from Tess that the shapeshifter doesn't have a human body or a human side, and has raised Tess for 10 years. He thinks of himself as the aliens' protector and will kill to save them. Exactly what IS his relationship to our teens? Is his species the one that bioengineerd M/Mi/I/T? Are those pods growth chambers? And why did the SS wait so long to come back to Roswell? And why the cat and mouse game with Max & co.? Why not just make contact? 5) GENETIC DESTINY VS FREE WILL. Are we really to believe that Tess and Max are destined to be mates? And what did Tess mean that Max knew her before? To what extent are people the result of genetic destiny? Or do people have the power to make their own choices and shape their own lives? Does Max have a chance for a future with Liz? Does Alex have a future with Izzy? Or does Izzy "have" to be with Michael? 6) ALIEN AUTOPSY. The episode ends with Max in a sinister white room. The best case scenario here is an interrogation chamber. The worse case is Alien Autopsy II. The question emerges--who is more human in this scene--the compassiona and gentle Max locked in the room--or the alien hunter Pierce who is preparing to experiment on him. The white room looks like every alien's worst nightmare. Maybe aliens should fear humans as much as humans fear aliens. What do you think? LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-01-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-01-2000).] BehrFan     Posts:340    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-01-2000 08:39 PM Just wanted to add another point for you Sci-Fi experts to comment on... if our "fab four" were "engineered" as Michael put it and since Tess confirmed that Nasedo was NOT REALLY their father, then are we to believe that the aliens are parentless...and if there are no parents, just manufacturers(for lack of a better term), then Max and Isabel as well as Michael and Tess, are not siblings. Rather Max and Tess, Michaeland Isabel are simply mates put on Earth to procreate? This show will definitely have numerous Sci-fi aspects for us to consider. Everytime a question is answered...a million more surface. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-01-2000 08:51 PM Behr-fan: You bring up a good point. If they are simply "engineered" then the former familial assumptions that they made might not be accurate. On the other hand, if they are bioengineered then it involves the use of genetic materials and if this material is procured from siblings then M and I could, in fact, be brother and sister. And since we are talking about pair-bonding (thinking of the book's images here) it also means that Tess and Michael may be siblings. On another issue -- did that book seem remarkably crude for space faring species? Though--as Mala described it on another thread--the "bat symbol" that the orb sent in the sky was interesting! LSS db     Posts:316    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-01-2000 09:35 PM you guys have made some really good points and here is something that i found to be really odd-as we all know nasado is not to hot about the aliens human friends and basically tells liz that he really didn't care if she was captured-so why then does he take/rescue her from the fun house?? was it because seeing max captured he knew she could be used against him if she to was captured or was he trying to get max out of the way by having him follow them out-its something that just me go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm????? also we now know that liz is on the list because of what max did to her at the crashdown, i'm guessing the sheriff mainly because he has had contact with Ms. T before and after and because he shot Hubble but then are alex and maria on the list only because they know about the aliens?? (and yes i have not been keeping up with the sci-fi threads so if this question has been answered be patient with me) db     Posts:316    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-01-2000 09:37 PM you guys have made some really good points and here is something that i found to be really odd-as we all know nasado is not to hot about the aliens human friends and basically tells liz that he really didn't care if she was captured-so why then does he take/rescue her from the fun house?? was it because seeing max captured he knew she could be used against him if she to was captured or was he trying to get max out of the way by having him follow them out-its something that just me go hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm????? also we now know that liz is on the list because of what max did to her at the crashdown, i'm guessing the sheriff mainly because he has had contact with Ms. T before and after and because he shot Hubble but then are alex and maria on the list only because they know about the aliens?? (and yes i have not been keeping up with the sci-fi threads so if this question has been answered be patient with me) starcat Member Posts: 27    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-01-2000 09:54 PM LSS and all: I am glad you brought up Liz's remarks regarding her healing. In an earlier SF thread for SH (I believe?) it was questioned whether Liz was altered in some way when she was healed and in tonights ep she provides proof of this when she states that Max 'changed' her. I wondered whether this meant a 'life' change ie. falling in love and finding her soul mate, or is there something deeper going on because of the connection she made with Max in the PILOT...I believe that Liz had the visions she did in BD and SH because of the healing/connection. Tonight she states they "saw into each other souls" to which the shape-shifter seemed 'unequipped' or 'unsure' how to answer...or maybe he simply ignored all she had to say??? To elaborate on the last sentence above: One theory I have is that the shape-shifter may be unprepared to deal with or even explain the connection that has occurred between Max and Liz....an alien healing and connecting with a human may be something that was not anticipated thus its affects and repercutions may 'change' Max and his destiny in a way that Nasedo/Tess cannot control...thus making the book and their predetermined futures null and void....proving that you choose your own destiny and not the one (as Max stated in this ep) chosen for you... wouldn't it be nice if it were this easy...but I have confidence in M&L and I believe the series creators do as well for I feel their relationship grows stronger with every episode. Hope I have been able to add to the incredible discussion on this thread...if I reiterate what has already been said...I apologize.. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-01-2000 09:58 PM Topolsky reported to Valenti that Pierce had questioned her because she had come into contact with the "subject" ( = Max). Therefore it is logical to surmise that the gang are on the list due to their proximity to Max. And here is where we run into an inconsistency. We saw in in M to the M that the camera planted in Mi's apt had been there since SH--remember it recorded the discussion between Mi/I right before Max arrived. WHICH ALSO MEANS THAT PIERCE KNOWS ABOUT THE CHANGES IN LIZ'S BODY (the odd rash, etc.) unless the camera wasn't working (i.e. too dark). Anyway--the point is...why go after Max? Why not go after Michael? Michael's conversation with Izzy would be enough to damn both of them and identify them as aliens. Why not pick Michael up? They had no hesitation when they picked up Max at the carnival. LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-01-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-01-2000 10:13 PM Starcat: Good Memory!!! Yes we did develop the "altered Liz" theory on the SF of SH. And like you, I thought of that when Liz kept making reference to her being changed. And yes, I think that it is very significant that the "v" constellation has been a part of both M/T and M/L visions--it is almost as if this constellation is turning something on in both M/T AND M/L. But there is an important distinction between the visions that M/T have and those that M/L have...M/L visions are about REALITY...what has happened. M/T visions (of when they are adult) are WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN...BUT HAVE NOT (as yet). And only M/L have two way visions. Do I think that the above is proof that Liz has somehow thrown a wrench into "destiny"? Oh yeah. LSS FehrFan     Posts:1623    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-01-2000 10:14 PM LSS: I've been wondering why Max is Pierce's main target as well. Could Pierce know something about Max that makes him different or superior to the other three aliens that would give Pierce the desire to single him out? If he just wanted to dissect and study alien anatomy I would think Michael would have been far easier to catch. What is it that makes Max so special? Jason's Angel Member Posts: 49    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-01-2000 10:18 PM Hello Everyone-- I have been lurking for months and have just started posting but I always enjoy this thread because of all of your wonderful and insightful comments. I don't know if my comments belong on this thread or not (if it pertains to the Science Fiction)but I think I noticed something interesting when Liz was kissing Nasedo/Max and had those dark visions (both on the side of the road and again at the end before he shapeshifted into a clown). It looked like what appeared to be a vision of Hubble's wife lying on the ground. (I replayed my tape again at slow speed because it happens pretty quickly but it is Hubble's wife) Remember in the Convention episode (almost positive it was that one)when Hubble was telling Max the story about how Nasedo killed his wife that night when they took the drive. When Hubble was telling Max the story that night - they flashed back to a scene of Hubble's wife lying dead on the ground (with the silver handprint on her chest). That looked just like what Liz saw in her flash when she kissed Nasedo/Max. I don't know--maybe it doesn't mean anything other than she was just another one of his victims..but for some reason it just seemed strange that is who she saw...especially because when Hubble was talking to Max that night about being with the one you love (it sounded like Hubble was also describing Max & Liz and their relationship). I don't know..I could be grasping at straws but it just made me curious. Just how important is/was Hubble in the grand scheme of things...remember Topolsky even made that comment to Sheriff Valenti in Crazy to the effect of "what did you think would happen once you shot/killed Hubble...(something about it making them/the Alien Hunters) more aware-sent up a red flag about what was happening. Thanks for letting me share my thoughts. (hope I made sense--sometimes my thoughts are there but I have a hard time putting it into words) Jason's Angel Kath7     Posts:116    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-01-2000 10:23 PM I think that Max is probably considered special because of the whole healing Liz thing...it was what first brought him to Pierce's attention...I'm sure that by now that they are pretty sure that Isabel and Michael are also from "up north" but they have not yet seen any concrete physical proof, since neither Michael or Is have technically used their powers in a public scenario...yes, their words have damned them, but Max gave them concrete proof by healing Liz...(that darn dress!) Pleiades     Posts:565    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-01-2000 10:50 PM coming out of lurkdome...I love these threads...but I can't post here I am not spoiler free and I know the answers to the questions...oh well...all will be revealed in the next shows.... saphire     Posts:1635    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-01-2000 10:52 PM hey all, i never post on this thread but it is very interesting what you have all brought up. tonight i just had to come in here. i am really starting to believe that liz was physically changed, altered after max healed her. she says so again tonight and the way she said it made me think she doesn't fully understand the change in her and i think she was talking about more than just emotional. also why is it that liz can see visions in nasedo's head? before we thought that she saw visions in max's head because they were soulmates, connected by love and him being an alien. but why nasedo? and also why is it maria has never had a vision of michael but michael has had some of maria? i think that liz was altered physically, that she has or is starting to develop some of the powers michael/isabel/max/ tess have. i think that greatly alters things. what do you all think? Jason's Angel Member Posts: 49    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-01-2000 11:15 PM Hello again everyone-- All of you make excellent observations...I agree with you about Liz--I also believe that the healing did change her in some way..remember in Sexual Healing how her hickey glowed..how when Max touched her arm it glowed..also when she came back home after being with Max at Michael's apartment-her mom was waiting for her and then questioned her about where she was. Remember her mom touched Liz's neck and face and said that she was burning up...is that similar to what happened to the victims of Nasedo (like in Max To The Max when he killed the special agent) it seemed like when he placed his hand on him to kill him he was burning him to death (and it seemed to cause a glowing effect). Of course--the glowing that Max caused Liz to experience (the hickey/glowing when he touched her) is not the same as Nasedo's harmful intent but it is fascinating and puzzling at the same time! Just wanted to comment-- Jason's Angel BehrAll     Posts:253    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-01-2000 11:54 PM Hey everybody, great thread as usual. And next week when I actually get to SEE Max2theMax, I hope I can contribute something specifically meaningful (darn CTV!). Meanwhile, I really like that they're following up on the "Liz being altered" storyline, I think it bodes great things for the sci-fi arc (and the disappearance of Tess ). After all, if "aliens" can be maufactured out of DNA (or whatever genetic material is used), couldn't you argue that that is in fact what Max might have done to Liz? In essence, he would have "created" another alien, which would explain a lot ... and is relevant to 1-3 of LSS's questions (which are on-the-spot as usual). Re Genetic Destiny: that's a hard one. I would like to say "free will" wins the day, but I have never been able to explain away the biological part of the whole "nature vs. nurture" debate. I think it may be that you have to "earn" free will and the chance and/or ability to escape and redefine your destiny. Re Alien Autopsy: You know, this never made all that much sense to me. If the only obvious manifestation of alien nature is intangible in nature (ie psychic powers), it just doesn't make sense to kill 'em off to "learn more", especially when you could learn just as much using samples (surface and internal) and technological imaging methods. It is scary though. And without being glib, I think we all know the answer to the question of "who's more human" issue. It is impossible to define "human" in purely physical terms, except on the genetic level, and if being "humanE" is the question, well there really is no question, is there? Can't wait to hear more ... mattia     Posts:680    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-02-2000 12:05 AM LSS: your last line of your first post really summed up the previews of white room.....scary, raising the hairs on the back of my neck on Liz being changed. I see her as kind of a "filter" or "receptor" now. Ever since max healed her, she is "tuned into" his alien side and can see the visions. She is the only one that can too (ie maria and alex). I think to keep her from dying, max must have had to change her and her being able to recieve alien signals is what resulted. I also believe she meant that she has changed emotionally too, aka, loving max. as far as their destiny and being "paired" off, that was what was ideally suppose to happen. It didn't. the pod squad and tess were seperated, so, whatever was suppose to occur has since been altered. RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-02-2000 04:36 AM ***I agree with everyone's observations about how Liz has been changed, perhaps even altered "molecularly." In "Into The Woods", when Max and Liz are discussing their "relationship" (after she has just brushed her teeth), she says to Max, "Max, you made me a part of this." Until tonight's episode, I didn't give that line much significance, but now I'm not so sure. Could she have meant more than just letting her in on their alien status? In this and prior episodes, she has shown time and again that she has a sixth sense when it comes to Max. I find it incredible that their relationship has taken on much more than their initial "falling in love", looking into each others' souls, etc. They continue to become "one" in many ways, emotionally, spiritually, hopefully soon physically, and now perhaps, biologically. Is Liz becoming more alien, Max more human, or both of them creating a "new species" into which they and they alone have been privy to experience? The possibilities are endless. tal     Posts:141    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 05:36 AM Forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere - Where was Nasedo (the protector) when Max et al came out of the pods? Why would Tess be the only one "raised" by the SS ? Was this answered in the earlier episodes? Unfortunately I missed the last two shows. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 06:08 AM Tal wrote: "Where was Nasedo (the protector)when Max et al came out of the pods? Why would Tess be the only one "raised" by the SS?" The simplest answer is that we have not yet been told. One wonders if the SS is the one that was on the run from the army and who buried the orb (see the visions in SH). If so, then perhaps he was "detained" by the army? He seems to be VERY familiar with Pierce and the special unit. Perhaps he left Roswell to draw them away? All of this is speculation only so we will simply have to wait and see. RemyS wrote: "Is Liz becoming more alien, Max more human, or both of them creating a "new species" into which they and they alone have been privy to experience?" Interesting plot line to explore here and I do hope the writers "go there". What a wonderful way to combine both SF and romance storylines. Max is becoming more human through his own choice and through the context surrounding him. Liz has been changed through an event and continuing relationship. And Liz "chooses" to stay with Max regardless of SS alien and the threat it implies. If these two ever "do it" the offspring will be interesting indeed. In the fanfics that have used this element (I'm thinking of Anne and Danilese here) the writers usually think, not of a new species, but simply of a sharing of genetic traits of which some are powers. But you are right--a new species is definitely an option here--either that or a super enhanced human. Mattia wrote: "as far as their destiny and being "paired" off, that was what was ideally suppose to happen. It didn't. the pod squad and tess were seperated, so, whatever was suppose to occur has since been altered." I think you are correct. Kind of sad for Tess though. And I did feel that Max felt sorry for her when they were in the desert walking (I mean, would you like to have been raised by the SS?). But that jeep scene was NOWHERE near what my "spoiled" side had feared. What WILL be interesting to see is how interaction with our Pod Squad will effect Tess. Will it make her more "human"? She was pretty cold, not only to Liz, but also to the SS--after all, he's raised her for 10 yrs and is the only "family" she's known. Have you ever seen much emotional warmth on Tess' part toward the SS? My son--who emphatically does not watch Roswell--questioned a while back why I watched TLV with a drink in my hand. I tried to explain about Tess and "destiny". He simply shook his head and said...Tess should realize that "that was then and Liz is now and just deal with it". From the mouths of babes... LSS Dawn Member Posts: 796    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-02-2000 06:45 AM I really enjoy reading all of your excellent observations.I was unsure about the "physcially altered" Liz theory, but I'm now starting to believe the storyline is heading in that direction.I just thought it was so significant that Liz said "He changed me" when there were so many other ways she could have worded her experiences, especially in regard to her emotional state. The clues are really stacking in favor of her being truly altered by their connection and I am glad too.It does make it all so much more interesting and dramatic and her bond to Max even stronger. LSS I had to laugh at your sons comment and he is wise.My daughter watches but she is always appalled at my fragile dreamgirl sensibilites and she has total faith in Max and Liz. Enigma81     Posts:386    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-02-2000 07:28 AM I would disagree the statement that Nasedo does not have emotions. Throughout "Max to the Max" we see him grinning and joking. If he had no emotions he would have no sense of humor. Tess says to him, "You're afraid of Pierce, aren't you?" Fear is an emotion. Nasedo also seems to have a vindictive personality, he loves revenge. tal     Posts:141    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 07:29 AM I think that Tess is cold because she knows no other way to be.Although she has a human body, as far as we know she was not raised experiencing any human emotions. I actually felt sorry for her when she was talking to Max. While she is of the same makeup as the others, she was not nurtured as the others. She is the unspoiled one of the "manufactured group" if you will. I think that the separation, and subsequent "humanization" of the other three will likely render all past plans for the group ultimately unworkable. Is it possible that Hubble's pregnant wife was the source for the human genetic material that would have necessary for the groups manufacture? Their human mother perhaps and that this is why Liz is seeing her when she kisses SS? Also, why do you think that Tess didn't emerge from the pod at the same time as the others ? Are the other 3 "defective" in terms of the manufacturing process and therefor not exactly like Tess in their makeup? [This message has been edited by tal (edited 05-02-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 08:13 AM Enigma81 wrote: "I would disagree the statement that Nasedo does not have emotions. Throughout "Max to the Max" we see him grinning and joking. If he had no emotions he would have no sense of humor. Tess says to him, "You're afraid of Pierce, aren't you?" Fear is an emotion. Nasedo also seems to have a vindictive personality, he loves revenge." While some of your observations are based on your own interpretation of the SS's face or actions and on Tess' own observations--I think you have a point here. But Tess does seem to distinguish the SS from humanity on more than simply a physical basis. If not emotions, then what would you suggest is meant by "the human side"? Are we talking about some type of moral conscience? If so then Pierce seems to be as alien as the SS! Tal wrote: "Is it possible that Hubble's pregnant wife was the source for the human genetic material that would have necessary for the groups manufacture? Their human mother perhaps and that this is why Liz is seeing her when she kisses SS?" This is a very interesting suggestion. I think at one time someone mentioned it on one of the prior SF threads. Realize this... that if this IS the case, then the only thing that that ship (in the 1947 crash) might have carried was the alien genetic material. In a sense then, M/T/Mi/I are actually "Made in the USA" and not "survivors" from a crash. Moreover, although one usually thinks of labs in connection with bioengineering, the cave and pods seem to hint at a far more organic process. Is the SS the one who is responsible? Or are there other aliens we have yet to meet? And, yes, if Liz can receive visions (albeit in black and white) from the SS (like Michael does from Maria; and like Max does from Liz) then this is further proof of her altered status--a status of which I think the SS is unaware. LSS Elliott     Posts:828    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-02-2000 08:17 AM tal raises some interesting points I would like to follow up on -- Max, Isabel, Michael and Tess are a kind of laboratory experiment in the nature/nurture argument. To all intents and purposes, Max, Isabel and Michael are 'human,' because they were raised to be. Though they have been aware all of their lives that they were alien and therefore 'different,' they still experienced (and were expected to experience) all the emotions of human life. Even Michael, who had an abusive/neglectful, dysfunctional father, has responded as a human boy would do to such an upbringing. And if he is awkward and ignorant of many of the middle class manners and customs that Max and Isabel understand completely, his relationship with Maria has brought him more decisively to the human side. In Tess we have an interesting case. She is genetically just like M, I & M, but she has been raised by an alien, with a constant eye on her alien destiny (at least insofar as finding the others, including Max, her intended). Though her potential to feel and act as a free-thinking human is just as great as that of the others, it is an option that has clearly never occurred to her. She has had human reactions to her upbringing (chiefly loneliness we hear) but has also assumed the casual contempt for humans that Nasedo all too chillingly has. Little does she realize that she has therefore been schooled in self-hatred, because she is far more 'human' than she realizes now. Right now Tess feels spurned by Max and rejected by all her fellow-aliens. She is hurt and no doubt confused. How could they possibly care so much for these stupid humans? Why aren't they hopping-to at the sudden awareness of their alien 'destiny?' In Michael (the most unhappily human, as was reiterated last night) we see the potential for him to 'cross over' to the alien side. But there is also the potential for Tess to realize that in her way, she has lived a lie and has been raised to fulfill a possibly meaningless quest. She may learn to be more human and rebel against Nasedo who brought out her alien potential, while neglecting every other aspect of her being. As for Liz: I have always felt that Max's intervention has biologically altered her in some way. And it is very significant that she had visions (bleak ones) when she kissed Nasedo/Max. Of course she believed it was HER Max, and approached each kiss with openness and love in her heart. Perhaps that made her receptive to his visions, though he was Nasedo? Would she gets visions if she kissed Michael, Isabel or Tess? Or would she have to love them as she does Max? And yet love alone doesn't guaranteee visions, since Maria and Alex don't get them when they kiss their alien lovers. Clearly either the psychic link Max set up with Liz when he saved her, or else something he changed in her body when he healed her, must have left some residue or tangible change in her makeup and abilities. Perhaps this link bonded closely to Max's great love for her, was enough to affect this 'miracle'? And yes, it's looking like Hubble's pregnant wife may have unwillingly donated fetal tissue needed to broker MIMT into existance. This is a Frankenstein-like idea that we all rejected months ago as too gruesome for this program. And yet here it is. If true, it might suggest that all four aliens are actually related, with the Hubbles as their parents. Unless the genes were altered. Perhaps Nasedo took genetic samples from each of the people he killed, so that each human/alien hybrid would be different? And about the Venus constellation causing estrus: It is mentioned that the alignment of the stars has caused this 'madness' in the four young aliens (what an Elizabethan concept!) Are we to assume that as the stars change position, these visions will end, and Max will stop thinking about Tess against his will? (Let's please have this be a 'yes'). db     Posts:316    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-02-2000 08:30 AM tal-the whole hatching thing and tess not hatching at the same time could mean this-usually with farm animals when an egg does not hatch or takes longer in hatching there is something wrong and the animal on the inside is usually dead or disformed-how do we know that nasado didn't do something in order to get tess to come out of the pod?? LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 08:34 AM Elliot wrote: "Are we to assume that as the stars change position, these visions will end, and Max will stop thinking about Tess against his will? (Let's please have this be a 'yes')." God--that would be nice, wouldn't it? But if we think of this less of as "estrus" and more of "puberty" then I doubt it. If something has been "turned on" then it may not be so easily "turned off". But remember the same thing that turned Max "on" also turned Liz "on" in a sense--although we all know that their relationship/love predates the first vision of the "v" constellation. And I really think that Liz's seeing the constellation in her vision in SH is extremely important. Moreover her words in the shower echo the experience that Max is having. This mirroring of Liz / the aliens is further underscored in our latest episode. Elliot, I am really getting excited about where this may be going! LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-03-2000).] HollyLou     Posts:302    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-02-2000 08:39 AM quote: Originally posted by starcat: One theory I have is that the shape-shifter may be unprepared to deal with or even explain the connection that has occurred between Max and Liz....an alien healing and connecting with a human may be something that was not anticipated thus its affects and repercutions may 'change' Max and his destiny in a way that Nasedo/Tess cannot control...thus making the book and their predetermined futures null and void....proving that you choose your own destiny and not the one (as Max stated in this ep) chosen for you... starcat-i remember you bringing that up after SH. i really didn't know what to think then, but now i think you're right. (how profound of me). i think when she said 'changed' she meant a physical change and not a life change. remember her mentioning at the beginning of SH how she was changing, like it was something chemical. sounds physical to me. i definately think this will throw a wrench into the max/tess as mates thing. [This message has been edited by HollyLou (edited 05-02-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 08:43 AM db wrote: "usually with farm animals when an egg does not hatch or takes longer in hatching there is something wrong and the animal on the inside is usually dead or disformed" This has been brought up before and I think that it is a very perceptive observation--especially since Tess looks so different from our trio. But db--are you implying that there are other differences between Tess and our trio beyond, say, that fact that she is short and slightly built? If so, what are the differences that you see? And are you implying that the SS had to do the equivalent of an alien C-section to get Tess out of the pod? LSS tal     Posts:141    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 09:12 AM db - I was assuming that the trio emerged prematurely (hence Nasedo's absence) and possibly incomplete in the total development process. I didn't consider that Tess' late emergence might indicate a defect.Interesting JanetMG     Posts:176    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-02-2000 10:01 AM Just a quick post (my computer at home died last night & I can't spend much time here at work). I'm still not sure how much I trust and/or believe Tess. While I think she's telling the truth as she knows it, I'm not sure she was told the truth. Also, the "pictures" in the book seemed to be focused on reproduction, which seems to imply that their purpose focuses on reproduction. As Elliott pointed out on the last thread, that doesn't seem like a terribly sound raison d'etre when there are only 4 of them. Particularly, as someone pointed out in an earlier thread, if they are alien/human hybrids. (Even if they have the technology to introduce more genetic diversity.) Is the book just volume 1 of the Time/Life series on alien purpose or a special edition created just for Tess and/or MMI as a motivational guide or are we going deeper than the writers intend? silver.star Member Posts: 31    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-02-2000 10:07 AM My opinion is pretty much the same as LSS (very insightful). I have a thought tho, Ok so we find out that our fab 3 were made. But we have Nasedo who is an alien here to protect them (so he says) maybe just maybe our fab 3 were an experiment with ali aliens to crossbreed. AREA 51???? And lets say something went wrong and the special agents tried to kill off our fab 3 in the alien pods so Nasedo hid them till they were born. *EDITED FOR SPOILER CONTENT* And agian I love this show, Jason was excellent and it keeps getting better. My opinion on Liz and visions with Nasedo definitely its because of Max healing her she did say something changed inside of her. I am a Max and Liz fan just love that couple. Anyway??????????Im babbling [This message has been edited by MoonFire (edited 05-02-2000).] JanetMG     Posts:176    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-02-2000 10:13 AM Another quick point. Any thoughts on the limits of Nacedo's shapeshifting ability. (I liked the cave wall shift--Wonder Twins powers activate! Form of ____.) One shapeshifting theme you see often is that you start to "become" what you shift into on an intellectual and/or emotional level as well as a physical level. Thus its important not to stay in another shape too long. It seems unlikely that Nacedo limits his time as any particular human (since Tess has never seen his natural form), but it's possible that he saved Liz over Max because he'd been Max for a while and that's what Max would have done. Arrggghh--Shouldn't have stopped here, now I don't want to work. Had to come back & edit this to say that I really think the Max-would-have-done-it theory is unlikely. More likely--He probably just didn't realize Liz's potential significance prior to their conversations. Also, since Nasedo is Harding, who were the military guys Michael saw at his house and are they connected to Nasedo? to Pierce? to someone else, e.g., "the others" to whom Tess referred. And as Roswellite mentions below, what is happening to Isabel? Is it something more/different from the "something primal awakening" feeling Max talked about? [This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 05-02-2000).] Roswellite     Posts:68    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-02-2000 10:14 AM This is my first post to the science fiction thread - I think by far it is the most interesting on the board! Some of my thoughts have been echoed by many of you - by here goes: FehrFan, Kath7 talked about Pierce and asked "Why is Max so special?" Could it be that after all Pierce "law enforcement" and the evidence for Pierce points to the fact that MAX HAS KILLED! Or thinks that it was Max who killed the FBI agent(and others in the past) and left the clues at the gas station because of the security photo. As far as Pierce knows, Michael and Isabel have not actually killed anyone. Pierce wants to know about the aliens and also make Max suffer and play this "game" (Nasedo Max was taunting Pierce to find him) now he did and he's gonna pay. About Hubble: I was wondering why kill Hubble's wife? - was it to send a "message" to Hubble to stop hunting the aliens or was it as some of you are suggesting that Nasedo took genetic material from the wife's fetus? Another theory about Hubble. Maybe when Hubble got Valenti's father to shoot his wife's "killer" it really was the guy that Hubble saw kill his wife - after all Nasedo (SS) could have made himself look like anyone. SS made himself look like Man "A" and killed Hubble's wife and when Valenti Sr. and Hubble saw Man "A" they shot him down. But Nasedo shapeshifted to someone else and got away. Mrs. Hubble as Mamma: Great theory - I wish the writers of the show could read this thread! And as Elliot(?) said - that could mean they are all related - siblings in some way - that would mean that Max& Tess could not be together and ditto for Michael and Isabelle. Riverdog: Will Riverdog play into this story again in the future? The sense I got from the episode "RiverDog" was that River dog was a young man and naive when he encountered Nasedo. He treated Nasedo as a friend but maybe he didn't trust him 100%. But still, rarely does a wise indian chief misjudge someone's character like that. Can Nasedo be kind after all? Maybe he owed Riverdog some appreciation after he saved his life from the "Balance". On Liz heating and glowing: Max uses his powers more - she was hot when he mother touched her just like when Nasedo killed the FBI agent. Michael who does not use his powers did not cause a glowing hickey on Maria. But maybe that's because Michael's kisses are soft and tender and not hungry and lingering like Max's. (Could it be that simple?) I'm not convinced that Liz has been altered physically - she is human. But it sounds romantic. The glowing hickey is like the glowing hand print - Max caused this without knowing. I still can't get past why Maria doesn't have visions when she kisses Michael - this issue is definitely still up for debate. Speaking of being physically altered: And I don't understand yet why Isabelle feels like something is happening inside her body if she's not pregnant. On destiny: it is debated on so many shows and movies. They should either concentrate on this as the main aspect of the show - destiny and undying love or get on with it. No one will ever know the answer to this question - but trying to find the answer to it is what keeps us interested. LSS - quote: ...made in the USA not from crash i 1947. I have been telling people that for at least a week - those pods are safely tucked underground in this hidden cave. It does not seem that they were in any CRASH to me. Maybe the alien ships have been coming here for years and one of them crashed(not the one they were on). The Pod Squad safely landed here and were put into the hands of Nasedo to ensure that they hatched from their pods at a certain time. M,M&I hatched prematurely and therefore Nasedo lost track of them. He failed his mission and now has to find them and deal with the influence the human parents/environment has had on them and their true identity. He will probably try to lure Michael first knowing that he wants to embrace his alienness. I know this was long - I hope I have added something new at least or asked a new question. Bye for now! Laurie Bookish     Posts:172    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-02-2000 12:20 PM When I first heard the rumblings concerning Tess, I was prepared to vent spite at her character. And now I can only feel sorry for her. It seems she was raised in her own crystal palace, isolated, and "programmed" to accept her destiny. I think as a way of dealing with the emotional remoteness of her protector, she created this bond from afar with Max and the others, casting them as her "real family". She seems to think the others need only be awakened to become cognizant of and partners in their mutual destiny. Milton argued in Paradise Lost that humanity was characterized by free will. Yet the visions/attractions/dreams the aliens seem to be having don't strike me as "freely" choosing a life path. One question dating back to The Balance: If Nasedo doesn't have a body, how then did he get sick? Ok, another question: If the aliens were engineered, then are they of the same species as Nasedo? Or just part-alien? Elliott, I always enjoy reading your prose. It will be interesting to see the path the writers lay out for Liz, as I do agree with you that she was altered in some way on a physical level by Max's heroics. Bookish LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 12:37 PM Bookish: I think that your response to Tess is EXACTLY what the writers' want you to feel at this point in the storyline. I know I've said this before (so pardon me for repeating) but Maj said in an interview that we wouldn't like Tess "at first". I think that with M to the M we (the audience) are invited to "feel sorry" for Tess (i.e., her upbringing, her loneliness; etc.). This does not mean, however, that the audience will excuse her callousness towards humans. As for Nasedo's sickness--we really don't know what that was all about. And just because Nasedo (if the SS = Nesado) doesn't have a human body--it does not follow that he/she/it cannot get "sick". Bookish--you raised a few more questions but I can't scroll to your post. Since you are feeling sympathetic towards Tess, do you think that--if she becomes more "human" -- the writers mightbe able to redeem her in our eyes? (Hussies--I'm thinking here of those in the audience for whom she needs redeeming--I know that you may not feel this.) LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-05-2000).] Kate6058     Posts:1128    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-02-2000 03:14 PM Hey everybody LSS and Elliott -- I'm so glad we are discussing a changed Liz again! This was my favorite theory on the SF of SH thread and I am very excited that there is a real possibility for the writers to take this idea somewhere since Liz actually said "He changed me." As soon as she said that, I thought of the options we went over on this thread... with the idea that she is able to receive visions whenever she has an open mind and heart, I am reminded of the theory someone thought up about certain synapses in her brain that were awakened that now allow this information to flow into her. The visions from Nasedo were definitely all Liz's doing, since he hadn't meant to let her know who he was so soon, and since we know she was seriously enjoying Max's slightly more wild attitude. I think that Liz and Max really were meant to be... there is something more than just true human love between them, and this is it. Whatever happened with the orbs in Sexual Healing that was supposed to awaken the aliens' sexual desires and start the visions also awakened Liz's... that definitely tells us something. She didn't have any pre-determined mate to have visions of, so she had them of the home planet and crash instead. It is probably correct to assume that whatever is happening between Max and Liz was not supposed to happen, according to alien destiny, so maybe that is why she had the fever and rash and other symptoms. They might not be bad, only unexpected. I really do hope that they explore this... we need an explanation for the things that happened to Liz in Sexual Healing. And like I said a few times on the SF of SH... what an awesome thing for Liz. Wouldn't it be great to hold a secret like that... to be changed that way, and to have love wrapped up in all of it... LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 03:15 PM Roswellite: I think your idea of M/I/Mi coming out of the pods prematurely is interesting and would explain why the SS was not around when it happened. Usually "premies", however, are under birth weight, etc. (Of course this is using human case studies.) But our "trio" don't show any signs of being different (size wise) from Tess who remains in her pod. And of course we know that they grow up to be larger than Tess. I'm not sure what to do with these facts if we go with the Premature theory you've suggested. LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-02-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 03:17 PM edited [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-02-2000).] Fire and Ice     Posts:84    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 04:41 PM I think the reason that Pierce is out to get Max is because Max actually did something to a person and could be considered a 'threat'to human kind, even though who would think that Max is dangerous (only a man could think that!) Anyways the idea that Pierce has been watching them since SH is just creapy. *~leslie~* Alienwatcher Member Posts: 26    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-02-2000 06:02 PM I'm responding to LSS's first post on this thread - Sorry if any of my ideas or questions have already been posted. 1)MADE NOT BORN - I think this will break down a lot of the barriers the group feel about relationships between the alien. Maybe they all aren't so different after all. 2)WHAT MAKES HUMAN - Being human technically would be having human DNA. Although they have human bodies, do they have human DNA? I don't think just looking human makes you a human, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be a compatible race. I think Tess was just displaying her upbringing. Having been with Nasedo for the last ten years and constantly moving around she has never formed a bond or relationship with anyone like Max and Isabelle formed with their parents, Liz and Alex and Michael with Maria. To Tess, Liz was unimportant simply because I'm sure she has been told her whole life of this destiny and that humans are inconsequential. 3)DESTINY - I caught it when talking to Nasedo/Max, Liz said that when Max saved her life it changed her. Was she referring to a biological change? Also, I think Max was referring to the fact that Tess is not one of their group. Not one of their close friends. Was not raised human like them - not that she is fundamentally different then they are. 4)SHAPESHIFTER - I don't think he knew where M/M/I were until they started looking for him and setting off clues. Per Tess they were already gone when she was born so Nasedo must have missed them. (That goes back to the theory that M/M/I's timers were off on their pods.) I think they have been spending the last ten years looking for them. I can't figure out however why Nasedo is playing the cat and mouse game with them. But I thought it was strange that Nasedo/Max saved Liz from the FBI when they were in the fun house. Since she means nothing to him and he had told her he would only keep her alive as long as she was of use to him, what do you suppose he has need of her for? 5) DESTINY VS. FREE WILL - I think Max and Liz and Is and Alex definately have a chance to be together. I don't think anything can usurp a person ability to make the choices in their lives and decide who they want to be with. Perhap whoever sent them here "meant" them all to be together, but can that really be called destiny? And one final thought on Agent Pierce. Why doesn't Isabelle dreamwalk into Pierce's dream and confront him? She could be all cool and evilish and make a bunch of veilled threats to Pierce if he doesn't leave them alone. Kind of like how she played with Maria in the beginning and weirded her all out. After all, Pierce really has no idea what the aliens are capable of. She could just scare the s*** out of him and maybe get him to back off. What do you think? LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 06:40 PM SOME REFLECTIONS ON THE 'BOOK' The book that Tess pulls out of the wall has bothered me for a number of reasons. Now, it may just be the show's prop department that is at work here (I mean these are the same people who gave us a tic-tac container for whatever it was supposed to be--right?), but there are a number of aspects of the book that are odd: 1) No one seems to recognize or feel that they know the language. When Max sees the writing on the cave wall it feels like he as simply "forgotten" how to read it. And they all recognize the pendant. And Michael can make sense of the writing on the paper. But no one recognizes the writing in the book. 2) The book seems really crudely made. I mean for a species that has interstellar travel and can bioengineer our trio--shouldn't their technology be able to produce something more spiffy that this book? 3) The pictures in the book are perplexing. Is this a manuel of sorts? Why would the trio need to see how to reproduce unless it was never intended that they interact with human society (and hence learn of the birds and the bees). But if they were not to integrate into human society, then why pick a human form for the engineering template? Did the book bother anyone else? LSS Kate6058     Posts:1128    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-02-2000 06:49 PM quote: Originally posted by Alienwatcher: 2)WHAT MAKES HUMAN - Being human technically would be having human DNA. Although they have human bodies, do they have human DNA? I think being human is having the human spirit, having a real soul, feeling emotions and desires, and most importantly, recognizing what love is. Max, Michael, and Isabel, no matter how much Michael wants to deny it, are all human. They've grown up in this society knowing they were different, but they've never known alien ways. If they let the physical differences between them and Earth humans overrule their emotions, they will be miserable forever... that's why Tess' demands are pointless. She doesn't understand love - the one emotion that every human wants to feel, the one that connects everyone... we are all on a quest to find love at one time. She'll never be human in that sense, because, as someone suggested before, she's grown up tainted... her view on soulmates and feelings of pleasure will probably always be influenced by sixteen years of believing what Nasedo told her. Not to say that people can't change... but it's not that simple in the case of Tess. She's not just a person. I don't want to believe that it matters how the aliens were created. They were given human bodies and souls and will never be able to go back on that, so they are really human. DNA or not... they are. Alienwatcher Member Posts: 26    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-02-2000 06:49 PM RE THE BOOK Tess said that the book had the answers and if they just trusted her she would tell them what they wanted to know. Does this mean that she knows how to read the language? I think so. Leneba     Posts:200    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 07:34 PM First let me say that I agree wholeheartedly with the theory that Liz was changed in some essential way by her involvement with/healing by Max. The clues have been too numerous for it to be otherwise, IMO. Alienwatcher, good point about Isabel and dreamwalking. My guess is that she's afraid of losing control in that situation. Pierce, or the existance of someone like him probably terrifies her. Also, she would be revealing her identity to him. Remember, she doesn't know that the camera in Michael's apartment caught their conversation. However, now that Max is in terrible danger, who knows what risks she'll take on his behalf? Elliott said: And it is very significant that she had visions (bleak ones) when she kissed Nasedo/Max. Of course she believed it was HER Max, and approached each kiss with openness and love in her heart. Perhaps that made her receptive to his visions, though he was Nasedo? Would she gets visions if she kissed Michael, Isabel or Tess? Or would she have to love them as she does Max? Roswellite said: " I still can't get past why Maria doesn't have visions when she kisses Michael.." Kate 6058 said: "The visions from Nasedo were definitely all Liz's doing, since he hadn't meant to let her know who he was so soon..." My understanding, especially in light of Michael's comments to Isabel and Maria in SH, was that to receive visions from someone, that person had to open themselves to the receiver. When Max healed Liz, he had her look at him. I think that even though she didn't know what was happening, she instinctively trusted him. Perhaps that is why he got images from her childhood. (What would have happened if she'd been unconscious? Would he still have been able to heal her? He WAS able to connect with comatose Grandma, after all.) The next connection is made when Max tries to "make the connection go the other way". He places his trust in her, in fact wants her to see "that I'm still me". From that point on, the connection between the two of them flows easily, effortlessly. Michael tells Maria (SH) that he thinks the reason he was able to see images from her is because she is open to him. She has difficulty seeing any from him because he doesn't quite know how to place himself entirely in her hands. So is trust the deciding factor? It gets sticky when we come to Isabel and Alex. She has seen things from him (SH after they kiss, she tells Alex "Nothing...nothing relevant to the current situation"). We know from her conversation with Max in front of the jail in Heat Wave that she's ready to trust Alex even before he know their secret. I think it's safe to say that he trusts her as well. The why hasn't he had any visions? Tess is a whole other ball of wax. Did the images really come from her? From an outside influence? Because the stars are aligned? Someone (sorry, I forget whom) brought up the fact that the visions between Max and Liz are things that have actually happened, while Max's visions of Tess are in the "might be" category. I think that is an excellent point and will prove to be very telling in future episodes. The real question remains, how/why did Liz receive images from the Shapeshifter? Elliott and Kate, I agree it partly had to do with Liz herself. Whether it's because Max "changed" her or simply had to do with her love and trust for him, I don't know. I doubt that Maria would have experienced the same thing had she been in that situation. I also think a big part of it is because the Shapeshifter is so totally alien in every sense of the word. Maybe his thought patterns are so completely incompatable with humans that the usual rules simply don't apply. If he doesn't have emotions (which I don't entirely buy) then he would have no reason to wall himself off from Liz. He doesn't consider her a threat. One last question-- Why are the silver handprints that the Shapeshifter leaves different from Max's and the ones supposedly left by Nasedo? I checked past episodes just to be sure. The prints on all of the corpses, including Atherton all look the same as Max's very alien healing print. Yet the Shapeshifter's print, as well as the ones that trigger the door of the cave are very human in appearance. Ironic, don't you think? Does this represent some deeper meaning (Nasedo and the Shapeshifter are really two different beings?), or was it simply a stylistic change on the part of the production team? (By the way, I like the alien-looking handprints better.) LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 07:40 PM Alienwatcher: You are right--I agree that Tess probably does. But I was referring to "our" alien trio. Up to this time the language has seemed familar to them. This time no one mentions it. It may just be an oversight in the script. But it is a bit curious. LSS Enigma81     Posts:386    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-02-2000 07:50 PM I have a rather simple question. How does Nasedo change his clothes when he "Morphs?" In the books Max couldn't do it. Leneba     Posts:200    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 07:52 PM LSS, this occured to me after I caught your post on the book-- What if the images of M/I/M/T are not meant to specifically represent our aliens? If they were engineered, then there could easily be duplicate quads scattered in various locations. Maybe the images represent a template, illustrating four different "types" of aliens-in-human-bodies. This combination or pairing up shown in the book is simply a guide demonstrating the ideal cross-breeding situation. Of course, my spoiled self finds this unlikely... Leneba     Posts:200    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 08:08 PM Oops! Double post. [This message has been edited by Leneba (edited 05-02-2000).] HollyLou     Posts:302    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-02-2000 08:33 PM quote: Originally posted by tal: I was assuming that the trio emerged prematurely (hence Nasedo's absence) and possibly incomplete in the total development process. I didn't consider that Tess' late emergence might indicate a defect.Interesting I'm more inclined to believe that odds are in favor of Tess's pod opening late, malfunctioning, instead of the other three pods ALL opening early. I don't neccesarily believe that Tess is defective (I wish) or that she's different. It just sets up the logistics of the four being separated. Am I the only one that doesn't understand when some people comment that the trio is all tall and dark compared to Tess's fair petiteness? I think of Michael as tall, Isabel as fair, and Max as dark. I don't see any resemblence! Anyone? Leneba     Posts:200    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 09:37 PM Another question: Why didn't Max simply change the structure of the glass separating him from Liz in the mirror maze? Afraid to use his powers, do you think? Or maybe it didn't occur to him. C-Unit Member Posts: 30    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-02-2000 09:46 PM LSS...you mentioned the book. Well, I just finished watching M2TM again, and noticed something odd. If you look at the pictures of the four as "adults" in the book, only Max's picture has some design on his forehead. The others are "design-free". If I recall, it was Rosta who brought up the idea of Max as a "king" or leader. The picture of Max in that book almost looks like he's wearing a crown. As for the idea of our pod squad being bio-engineered, I raised that point in the Science of Sexual Healing. I thought that Nacedo was gathering DNA to do some genetic splicing of our trio (now foursome). Shooting holes in my own theory, Harding/Nacedo told Tess in the cave that he killed to protect the four of them, and that Pierce is the only one who has gotten that close. I guess I can understand the death of Atherton, because he was a UFO nut and was on to something. But Hubble's wife must have been something else because at that time, Hubble was just a regular Joe. It was the death of his wife and unborn child that led him to his crusade (right?) I don't know...I'm still confused. Somehow, I have to believe that their is yet another alien...the "real" Nacedo that Riverdog befriended and saved. I think he's the one that was looking at Max and Liz at the end of SH with that goofy grin on his face...he knows that Max and Liz are meant to be together. There's so much to analyze in this episode, and frankly, I'm watching the Buffy/Angel crossover, so I'm not giving this my total attention. LSS, as usual, you have initiated thought-provoking and philosophical discussions. Thanks! Carolyn Leneba     Posts:200    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-02-2000 09:47 PM Hollylou, I think when people refer to a resemblence between M/M/I while Tess looks different, they mean stature-wise. I agree, they all have very different features from one another. Actually, as the only brunette, Max is the oddball. Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-02-2000 10:15 PM Why can't the book be a recent fabrication by Tess? (Max was convinced she wanted him to see her "find" it.) That could explain why its symbols look unfamiliar to the others, and how their pictures got into it. The pictures about reproduction wouldn't be to tell them anything new, but to show what the topic is while Tess tells them, supposedly from the book, what she wants them to hear. The book does look strange, and I wondered why. Maybe Tess wants it to look old (to give it more authority?) Or unearthly? (It looks like Klingon style. What has she been watching on television for the last ten years?) The pages look like metal, unevenly discolored as if from heat or age. To me it conveys a sense of force and rigidity as well as drama and mystery. ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 33    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-02-2000 11:20 PM Hi everyone Just a quick post. Don't have any time at the moment to respond to the specific topics, in so many great posts, that I would like to. About the book, it bothers me, too. But it reminded me of Carl Sagan's "message to the universe" on gold disc and, apparently, other dics encased in metallic jackets, that went with Voyager One. Either the creative team borrowed the concept for Tess' book from here..or..they are trying to tell us something. The metal plates would be all banged up.. See what you think. http://vraptor.jpl.nasa.gov/voyager/record.html click on the picture to enlarge it and note at least one symbol similar to one from Roswell scroll down to click on: images then click on: diagram of male and female (on the photograph index list) Rosta (buried under an avalance of work..*grumble*) RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-03-2000 05:24 AM ***LSS, first of all, let me say that your son's comment was priceless. Children do have a way of "cutting to the chase." This is not really SF, but after watching Max To the Max again for about the 10th time since Monday night, I was intrigued by the "Shell Game" exchange between Liz and Nasedo/Max. Am wondering if there was any significance other than an analogy of their present circumstances. N/Max tells Liz to pick the correct shell with the pea (the real Max?), and when she can't, he proceeds to pick the correct one, stating, "Don't believe everything you see." (Meaning that she shouldn't have assumed that he was the real Max?) Thought this was very interesting and insightful of the writers to throw this "play on circumstances" into the story. Another thought: Remember near the end of TLV, Mr. Harding says to Liz, "We'll have to do this again sometime, Liz." Do you think that he already had plans to abduct her and that this line had more significant meaning than just a polite way of saying, "Come again." One more question: We know Max has powers (not sure to what extent at this point). Why then, does he not use them to escape the White Room and Pierce? Is it because he is too gentle, not sure exactly what his powers are, or is he still hoping not to expose himself? Any comments would be appreciated. I find something new and different each time I watch the eps. Oh, to have a life outside of Roswell. Aaahhh, who wants one? This stuff is too fascinating. When my friends tell me that I should get balance in my life, I tell them, "I have Balance, it's the 10th episode of Roswell." LOL [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-03-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-03-2000 05:31 AM ROSTA: Nice correlation to the Voyager plates (I have to dig out my Sagan book). And you are right--the plates look "weathered" either by time or by space. But neither of these options make a lot of sense given the storyline so far. If the book is "old" then it opens up really different lines of speculation from what we currently have. If the book has been through a "crash" (i.e. 1947) THEN its appearance might make sense. BUT it would open up a new line of speculation--that the aliens knew of the human shape BEFORE they came to earth. Either that or they alledgedly intercepted Voyager! Just watched M2TM again--and Izzy specifically remarks that the book contains a "strange" language--this is SO unlike our trio's earlier responses to the alien language. LENEBA -- You remarked that it might be a picture of a template. Let's take your idea a step further--What if the pictures are for recognition purposes? And what if the language isn't our trio's language at all? Do you understand what I am trying to hint at here? (Trying desperately to remain spoiler free). NEMO -- It is possible that the book is a fake but Tess thinks it is real because that is what she has been told (trying to be fair here to Tess). But since I really WANT that damned book to be a fake, I have to be a little suspicious of this theory. But no one would be happier if it turns out that you are right! ENIGMA: As for the SS morphing out of the wall--I don't know how many of you caught this BUT--this is the first time we have seen the SS morph into (or out of to be precise) something totally inanimate. Since apparently this is no problem for it, then the clothes issue is no big thing. BUT having a sentient being morph completely into an inanimate substance IS A VERY BIG THING! Also--WHY WAS the SS there? Was the meeting between the SS and Tess prearranged and he was just surprised that the trio was there? If not, why the H*** was the SS there? Does it simply like to hang around in walls like a bat does from the ceiling? Or did the SS teleport itself there and were we just seeing its arrival? BTW kudos to our writing staff who finally gave us continuity between episodes--M2TM actually picked up exactly where 4S left off...now WHY couldn't they have done that for SH (still wondering if the parents are in the land of the living)? LSS P.S. LENEBA--I also wondered why Max couldn't simply change the glass. Perhaps because he knew Valenti was somewhere in the room? Perhaps because he had lost his famed emotional control and thus his powers were iffy (thinking Michael here)? P.S.S. Someone earlier mentioned the handprints and heat. Both times that we see the famed silver palmprint in M2TM it is accompanied by the release of heat (unlike Max's use of his palm in healing). But if you remember correctly--in SH, prolonged making out with Max caused Liz's "fever". My Gosh--I hope when they finally do "do it" (and they will--but just when I'm not sure) I hope they can get around this little problem of heat exchange--hate to find out that Maria was right all along...! [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-03-2000).] Roswellite     Posts:68    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-03-2000 07:17 AM To LSS About Prematurity: Probably either they(M,M&I) were premature or Tess was late but I don't think the way M,M & I look are as significant as you think. It's all about what I call "Lestat" casting. (Tom Cruise did not fit the character he played in Interview with the Vampire but was cast because of his acting and marketability). They choose the actors to play the part because of their acting ability, not because they're the same height - Max looks the shortest of them all and yet he has the highest status of the four. Tess does look odd among the rest of the three - that's what they must have looked like on their planet. Leneba on Trust: I was confused about the visions with Michael and Maria but now I'm not confused! Yes, definitely. Maria didn't see visions because it was Michael that didn't open HIMSELF to HER. Duh! Trust is not there, not completely anyway. I don't think Michael trusts anyone, except maybe Isabelle and his trust of Max is shakey right now and vice versa. SS and the rock: I guess we have to make that leap about SS being in the rock - he must have followed Tess there to see why she brought Max to the place - we just didn't see him. I don't like the casting of that part - the guy who plays Harding is a little corny. When he was talking to Tess, I started to think of Buff or Charmed - not serious enough for our beloved Roswell. Let's not make this a cornball show!! Max Making Glass Disappear in the house of mirrors: I assumed he just didn't have time or didn't think of it because he was scared. If the real Max had rescued Liz, he wouldn't be captured and thus next week's episode wouldn't be happening. More drama. Let's keep this going!!! LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-03-2000 09:48 AM Roswellite: You are absolutely right of course--sometimes our analysis is built around nothing more than some casting oddity or prop expediency --and not on a significant element at all. Still -- it is fun, and there are bona fide significant elements out there. LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-03-2000).] Roswellite     Posts:68    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-03-2000 11:24 AM LSS - absolutely! We have come up with stuff I'm sure the writers and producers didn't even think of!! This is fun! Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-03-2000 12:26 PM Maybe we sometimes see things the writers didn't consciously put there, but I imagine we also miss things they are trying to show us. In science, when we observe the inconsistent or unexpected, that may signal (a) a blunder or (b) a chance to learn something. When watching Roswell, if we see what looks like an inconsistency, sometimes I think we're too quick to call it a blooper, and lament the apparent lack of continuity, when there might be something we can learn from it. The writers might have departed from what we have learned to expect in order to signal that the situation has changed, some new influence is acting (as when Isabel is uncharacteristically receptive to Tess's social advances), or just to give us another clue. One case I have in mind is the tic-tacs, or whatever those little pills are. When those pills were all we saw, we couldn't tell whether they were for energy replacement, or pain, or bad breath, or whatever. Now the writers have varied that a little: we see cotton candy, and mounds of mashed potatoes. Those variations (plus Harding's apparent large expenditures of energy) now look like additional clues that energy replacement was the right idea. SF, weren't you the one who made that interpretation of the mashed potatoes? It looks to me as if you were right on. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 05-03-2000).] Jeffman9     Posts:24    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-03-2000 12:53 PM quote: Originally posted by C-Unit: LSS...you mentioned the book. Well, I just finished watching M2TM again, and noticed something odd. If you look at the pictures of the four as "adults" in the book, only Max's picture has some design on his forehead. The others are "design-free". If I recall, it was Rosta who brought up the idea of Max as a "king" or leader. The picture of Max in that book almost looks like he's wearing a crown. . Thanks! Carolyn I don't know C-Unit, it looks more like part of his hair. Check it out... http://dailycaps.obsession-network.com/yesterday/image72.htm LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-03-2000 01:01 PM Nemo: Yes--the task is to sort out which are significant and which aren't. And, of source, as you point out, some are significant but we just don't realize it at the time. It is still a lot of fun though. LSS BTW--Nemo--this is OT-- I'm staying in the same hotel that you are for the Vancouver gathering. It looks like I'm flying in earlier than I thought, however (around 11 or 12) so I think I'll get there before you do. If so, then let's meet up at the hotel and then go over to the gathering site, OK? GraceKel     Posts:462    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-03-2000 01:11 PM Hi guys when I come on this thread I find it really interesting to read but I also feel a little hesitant about posting because of all your brilliant posts-but has anyone else noticed in M2M when Max has fantasy about Tess and Him in hot passion if you put your vcr on pause and slow-mo in those flashes at one point you just see Tess's eye and then in another white fade out appears half of her face. (YOU CAN'T SEE IT IF YOUR NOT IN SLOW_MO)? THis leads me to believe that she is using mind control to plant these visions. As for the book-I found it strange that Tess was sitting with MRS EVANS looking at pics when they were children _I do not think they did this for no reason! I think they might have needed them for this FAKED BOOK-I might be way off but that is what I think! Elliott     Posts:828    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-03-2000 02:07 PM Nemo: Very interesting theory. So Nasedo goes in for sugar and carbo loading, just like any regular American teenager. ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 33    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-03-2000 03:11 PM Good Afternoon! Taking a study break. I agree, LSS. I do think the story writers just borrowed the idea for the plate-book from Voyager 1 (after all Frakes has a ST heritage. Remember V'ger fromST:the Motion Picture). Otherwise, I also can't think, time-line wise, how it would fit. Unless this is a "reverse Voyager", ie, something the alien culture sent out as a greeting (should you find these pods, insert A into B.. or Whirlpool-R-Us, etc). LSS, I have noted on past SF of.. threads that I think that there is a distinct possibility that they have been here a very, VERY long time. And this goes to the question, what is alien? Regardless of it's origin, if it has been here long enough, is it not of this earth? Are we descendants of the organic seedings from cosmic dust (Biogenesis theory), from the same "star stuff" as Sagan liked to say. The other distinct possibility is that THEY created the template for the "human experiment" and have been watching us evolve. They came here (stepping stone progress from their galaxy of origin), some stayed, and some went back. Or they were originally from here and left, then came back. Or most stayed here, watched and waited, were dying out and left the essence of themselves behind. On another thread many talked about adapting and changing in the earth environment. Or. Maybe WE-uns (and MMI&T) are just replications of THEY-uns. And nasedo is different for any number of reasons, ie a different genetic off-shoot on this world or from their world or it's moon. In Michael's visions in The Balance, I had a sense that the "cocoons" appeared ancient. As if they "sporulate" to survive stressors and/or the long haul. Maybe they are the last of their kind who survived on earth or were created to carry not only the memories, but also the best of both species. LSS, Elliot, SF, C-Unit, DocPaul and others (who need to be recognized), started one of the best discussions regarding what makes them alien, and the energy/essence posts (is this thread archived?? I have it on hard drive, but I don't have time to look). They have powers for a reason, but I suggested on antoher long-ago thread that there is nothing truly extraordinary about these. It's hard to say. Not enough information, and, depending on whose vision/version it is, different possibilities arise. Regarding hybrids, their powers and Mrs Hubble, this is from a post of mine on the SF of Blood Brothers thread in March: >I believe that MM&I are humanÖjust more human than human. Perhaps they use more of what we all have. More areas of their brains are active and make different and/or more neurotransmitters. The same of their somatic cells. Perhaps, then, it is not a matter of "alien" genes as much as it is about what parts of their genome are "switched-on". >I suspect, as I wrote in a post on the SFofSH thread, that they were created as hybrids. My question then was whether or not the timeline was such that it was possible that they were created using ova extracted from Mrs Hubble. I suggested that perhaps the murders were just a cover for genetic theft and/or other human experimentation that perhaps were less than successful. Theft of ova and hybrid/chimeras are subjects myself and others have discussed quite a bit re the X-Files. My first or second post at Crashdown was on a thread called "Tabasco" which nobody read (*sniff*) since I was the last to post (only 5, I believe). Some one had asked about the aliens' curious dietary habit of putting tabasco on ?chocolate. I mentioned the medicinal properties of capsaicin (in peppers) and the possible need for glucose for huge energy expenditures for their powers. LSS, it's all your fault. You went and done it. You had to bring up Michael the Navigator. You are good. I wanted to put this off until after my exam, but nooo (*sniff* grumble* grovelling!Rosta pandering for sympathy and support because she is about to get her A** whupped next week with exams and research papers and trying to function in a room at the extreme of mess). The quick version, because I have to get to work. Jason was the navigator of the Argo. He and his crew, the Argonauts, went in search of the Golden Fleece (later sent to the heavens as ARIES (the sacrificed ram, see the legend on one of the constellation websites). Of course, the ship is also 3 constellations (Argus, Puppis, ?. One of the crew was a woman, Atalanta. The delicious part of this legend of the Argonauts is what happened after the search, or the theorized later journeys. The Argonauts are associated with Atlantis. Some theorists suggest that Plato's theoretical Atlantis is in the Bermuda (or Bimini) region (another Triangle, hint, hint). There are many theories that the Egyptian and Phoenecian traders sailed as far as South America, sailing eastward to the western shore of South America (?the Pillars of Hercules) rather than westward to the current Carribean to South America route (with the Pillars either Gibralter or farther in the Atlantic). It's all theory from myth and legend. I think A&E or Discovery is repeating a special this week on Atlantis. Don't miss! The Roswell connection? Why..Inca/Peru (as in Macchu Pichuf (?sp), Colchis, Nasca plains, and symbols, etc.). Another group of theorists suggest the Atlantas are the Incas, or mixed in with the culture, after escaping the destruction of their continent/Island/whatever. The paranormal theorists, of course, suggest that it was their tamperings with space-time (electromagnetic disruptions) that caused the destruction. Are the Anasazi (Hopi) descendants of the Incas northern movement? Get the ("stream") drift? I did suggest a few weeks ago that I could tie it together. ITA with those who point out how much fun this can be, whether or not it has any basis in the projected Roswell story arc. Some myths have historical basis, and speculation-type books are entertainment, compelling or not. But nothing stops story writers from sampling from these anccient and modern day myths. I learn a lot just from the speculation. Check for yourself. I was looking for a map and found these: I have another great story but it will have to wait until after my exam. http://www.greece.org/poseidon/work/argonautika/map3.html also click on the first page link and read the short chapters, ie, myth or history; iolkos to the atlantic; commentary facts; et. Enjoy. ROSta (this was a looong break) LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-03-2000 03:13 PM GraceKel--I'll have to go back and put that scene through slow-motion. BTW -- I think my children think I'm a bit perverted every time I slow down the kissing/vision scenes. Try as I might to explain what I am doing, they just don't buy it! Nemo--good call on the cotton candy. But since this was not exactly before a transformation, I wonder if this means that the SS needs a steady supply of sugar, etc. to maintain his form? And the tic-tacs simply provided a compact form of energy replacement for times when he has to shift forms? If he is basically an energy being (and not "alive" in the same sense as a biological entity) then could this explain why he is able to morph into an inanimate substance like the wall of the cave? LSS Llewellyn     Posts:1    Registered: May 2000 posted 05-03-2000 05:29 PM Feel Special, I registered on this message board for the expressed purpose of responding to this wonderful and insightful SF topic. It is both enlightening as well as entertaining. Though, this is a fairly shallow issue, but in reference to the metal book, my question is even if the Pod Squad was genetically engineered, how would the (artist?) know how M/M/I/T would style their hair as depicted in the etchings? I mean, you must admitt Michael's windblown look is slightly unusual, and even Isabel's longer hair versus Tess's shoulder length cut. I find it unlikely that they could predict the exact style of each person for this present time. This was one of the reasons that has led me to believe the book to be a fake. It appears that the creator was going for exact replication, especially if one were to continue with the logic that M/M/I/T were never "meant" to be integrated into human society as they were and that there decidedly human upbringing was a mistake in the predetermined scheme. ~Lyn LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-03-2000 05:32 PM Rosta: Good luck on your exams. I have requested that the SF threads be archived but I don't think they are yet. I have them on hard drive and will send them in if need be. Let me see if I can pull up that discussion you are talking about and post it tomorrow. I am comfortable with the idea of a sustained alien presence on earth in the story line (hey--my physics colleagues even had their students read Eric van Daniken (sp?) as an example of "pseudo-science"). And yes, our writers could dovetail it quite nicely with the same types of things that Daniken draws on. But again, did it strike you that those drawings were downright crude? Why not something more technologically advanced--i.e. laser etched, etc. There is something more to that book, and I'm just not sure what it is. LSS LSS SF     Posts:84    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-03-2000 05:58 PM Nemo, that was exactly my interpretation on the cotton candy too. Maybe the glucose high isn't just to maintian shape, but the SS needed it to have the energy to produce the "bat signal". Back to lurking. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-03-2000 06:07 PM SF/Nemo--I'd forgotten about the bat signal--it makes sense that the cotton candy would be necessary for an energy. requirement. You know, we've never seen anything like this with our trio. Even when Michael made the chairs fly and the refrigerator door open and the gun shoot--there was no accompanying ingestion of anything. Nor does healing apparently require this. Just whenever we have those bursts of energy. SF--don't stay lurking too long...your insights are too important! LSS Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-03-2000 10:33 PM Apparently what many are calling the "bat symbol" I thought was just the galaxy symbol (same as on the orb, for example) except distorted a little because we were viewing it obliquely. BehrAll     Posts:253    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-04-2000 12:13 AM If this has been addressed already here, I apologize, but I just finished commenting on this somewhere else when I realized maybe someone here could help me. If Nesedo doesn't identify as human, or even as alien in the same sense of M&M&I&T (who are apparently designed for sexual propogation), why does "he" identify as male? Not once (that I can recall) has Nesedo taken female form. Is it just a fallback on the whole macho warrior/protector stereotype? Do you think, if Nesedo had (ever) presented as female, "she" would have been regarded differently? Perhaps less malevolently? More like a mama bear watching her cubs than a Terminator 2-type henchman? I wonder if M&M&I etc. would have felt as threatened ... remember, they were scared but ready to stand up to Topolsky (although, she was human, so maybe the point doesn't stick). Anyway, any thoughts? tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 01:04 AM (Edited from an earlier post on another thread. I never read the thread "SF of SH" so I apologise for unintentional redundancy) Following are some observations on the possibility that, because of her contact with Max Evans, Liz Parker is not the person she was prior to being shot and that she may even be something more than simply human. "Roswell" begins with Liz's journal: "September 23rd. Journal entry one. I'm Liz Parker and five days ago I died. After that, things got really weird." From the beginning, the show casts Liz not as having been healed but as having died and been reborn as a different person. In looking back over the entire show, I think it's clear that the writers have consistently alluded to Liz's distinctiveness in a number of ways, and they have focused especially on the seminal event -- the healing. The events and revelations of "Max to the Max" could very well point the way to future significance of this repetitive theme. From the start, Liz has been portrayed a unique individual. Only minutes after being introduced to Liz Parker, we see her behaving in such an extraordinary way as to be almost unbelievable. Immediately after the incredible trauma of being shot and miraculously healed, Liz demonstrates an uncanny ability and an unnatural willingness to cover up what has actually happened even though she could not have understood it. But that was only the beginning. With only a few pauses for concern, Liz simply accepts the most bizarre revelations and uncritically adopts the perspective of the aliens. Much of what we know about what Liz was like before the shooting is revealed as a contrast to the way she was afterwards. Liz's closest friends soon recognize that she is different. After Liz has told Maria the aliens' secret, Maria exclaims, "Liz, Liz what happened to you?" and goes on to suggest that Liz has lost her mind. At various times, both Alex and Maria express amazement that Liz would lie to them, and both essentially say the same thing -- the person they thought they had known would never do such a thing. Kyle expresses similar confusion. In "285 South," he laments, "I don't know what I ever saw in you." And in "Blood Brothers," he tells Alex that "she's not the girl I thought she was, and she's turned into some kind of . . ." Alex finishes his sentence: "stranger." Once Maria is aware of the secret, she serves as a constant contrast to Liz's highly unusual behavior. After Liz's first rendezvous with Max in the Crashdown, when he allows her to connect with him a second time, her only moment of real doubt occurs after Valenti shows her the picture of Atherton's body. But when Max answers her questions and displays his incredible power for her, Liz is again oddly unruffled. Within two days of learning his awesome secret, she seems to trust Max implicitly, and she quickly defines a role for herself as a member of the aliens' inner circle that never really changes. Conversely, when Maria learns the secret of the aliens, she instantly panics, and she must be dragged kicking and screaming at every new step. Unlike Liz, Maria is naturally suspicious and afraid of the aliens, and she continually tries to warn her friend of potential dangers they represent even long after she herself has formed a romantic attachment to Michael. At the beginning of "The Morning After," Maria raises a series of questions concerning how little she and Liz know about these strange beings, questions to which Liz responds with only dispassionate indifference. Later, when Maria learns Liz is meeting Max in the eraser room, she tries to dissuade Liz with heated and ominous warnings. Not only does Liz ignore her friend and keep the appointment, but she immediately locks the door behind her with the obvious hope that Max has invited her to a romantic liason. In "Monsters," Maria's paranoia reaches the boiling point, and she comes very close to revealing the secret to Valenti and seeking the protection she believes she needs. On the other hand, Liz's first thought is always to protect the aliens, and she repeatedly tries to come between between Valenti and Maria at some risk to herself. Almost from the beginning, Liz automatically accepts risks and takes on responsibilities no one has asked or expected of her. She quickly extends the protectiveness she has demonstrated towards Max to all the aliens. For example, she goes to warn Michael about Topolsky's inquiries even though she's hardly ever spoken to him before. Unlike Maria, who tells Michael she knows more about the aliens than she wants to, Liz constantly tries to learn all she can about them. Liz also insists that she be included in dangerous undertakings. Whereas Michael must "abduct" Maria, Liz pleads for Max and Isabel to take her with them to Marathon. Liz then takes it on herself to uncover the secret of the necklace, leading the aliens to River Dog and revealing the existence of Nasedo. In the motel, Liz tells Max that "we are part of this now," and in "Into the Woods" she expresses her frustration to him at being left out -- "you made me a part of this" -- suggesting that even if she accepts that they can't be together romantically she cannot relinquish her role as an insider. Again, Maria provides a foil when she tries to stop Liz from following Max and Isabel into the woods, and again Liz asserts her unwavering commitment to the aliens: "I dont want to [give him up]." Liz repeatedly demonstrates uncanny courage, resourcefulness, and loyalty on behalf of her otherworldly friends. In "Balance" Liz's only weakness proves to be her concern for Max. River Dog explains that she is "afraid" but only for "someone you care a great deal for" -- not for herself. Even though she does not stand in the healing circle, Liz still appears in Michael's vision, and there she seems to be connected to Max. So that brings us to Liz's most important distinction -- her visions. Liz's visionary experiences distinguish her from all the other human characters. Though Michael was able to see into Maria's psyche and Isabel was able to dream walk into both Maria and Alex's subconscious, neither Alex nor Maria was able to experience what Liz did even though both apparently tried to connect with their alien partners. The mechanism for Liz's visions is unclear, but it seems more than possible that they reflect some unnatural ability of her own. Her first vision occurs when Max deliberately allows her to see into his mind. However, even in this example, it's possible that Liz plays a very active role in what takes place. After the experience, Max asks her, "did it work?" This suggests that he doesn't know what if anything she saw, so he perhaps wasn't projecting any particular thoughts or images to her. Instead, she seems to have found in him those things that were significant to her, especially his feelings for her. Liz's second vision occurs during the onstage kiss in "Blind Date." Some of us have discussed the possible reasons for this incident, one of which was the effect of alchohol on Max. Max's drunken behavior was not very different from anyone else's as he gave license to unconscious urges and desires. It could be that his lowered inhibitions accounted for Liz's experience. However, this still presents two alternatives. On the one hand, Max may have deliberately allowed Liz to connect with him as he did in the pilot. On the other hand, with the barriers to Max's unconscious lowered, Liz may have been able to penetrate his psyche because of her own sensitivity. In other words, she may have drawn the visions from him rather than his projecting them to her. The fact that he is unaware that she had a vision (she keeps trying to tell him about it during "Independence Day") again suggests that it could have resulted from some heightened sensitivity or unnatural ability she has gained. Of course, Max's apparent amnesia could also account for his ignorance. Max clearly played no active role in the visions Liz experienced in "Sexual Healing." Only her behavior cued him when she was having a vision, and the images she saw were unfamiliar to him. The big question is whether, as Michael suggests, someone or something else was sending images to Liz. The most obvious candidate is Nasedo, and his appearance in the desert reinforces the possibility that he was orchestrating the events depicted in "SH." However, the introduction of Tess raises an altogether different possibility. In "Sexual Healing," Liz may have proved that she is capable of taking Tess's place in Max's intended destiny. Tess tells the other aliens that they have a predetermined destiny, part of which is to pair off and procreate. She also tells them that the alignment of the constellations has induced dreams, visions, and urges that are intended to facilitate this end. The "visionary fever" that Max and Liz experience in "SH" and that eventually leads them to the buried orb may very well be a part of this same phenomenon. If that is true, then Liz apparently takes the part that was originally meant for Tess. More importantly, Liz plays her part successfully; she is more than a match for the alien female. Nasedo's appearance in the desert can be taken to mean many things; however, one explanation is that he knew that it was time for Max to be drawn to the orb he himself had buried, and he was just waiting there to see who showed up. Perhaps, he got something he didn't expect -- Liz. If anything, the events in "Max to the Max" lend credence to this interpretation. As many have noted, Liz's remark, "he changed me," is potentially extremely important. The remark is intriguing on its own, but it takes on added significance because of the context in which Liz makes it. Nasedo has just told Liz that Max is destined to be with Tess, and Liz makes three statements attempting to validate her claim to Max. First she says, "you don't understand what we have," then, "he changed me," and finally, "we saw into each other's souls." When spoken to the callous and mocking Nasedo, these remarks sound naive and ineffective. Nevertheless, they suggest something profound. To say that Max and Liz "have" something together is essentially the same as saying they now "share" something. Liz's final protest suggests what this is, a single soul. The "change" that Liz refers to may very well be that Max and Liz's souls are joined, that they are literally "connected" in some way. I and others have written elsewhere about the sexual imagery of the desert scene in "SH." The frenetic digging which provoked the violent eruption of a shaft of light and resulted in the "birth" of the egg-like orb was clearly meant to represent a symbolic consummation for Max and Liz. By the time Nasedo finds them, they lie sleeping together under the collapsed phallic tower in the afterglow of the rising desert sun. Nasedo would have recognized what this meant. Despite his protests to the contrary, Nasedo does not kidnap Liz because he needs her to make his plan work. Indeed, his plan fails precisely because he takes her with him. He takes her because he sees Liz as a real and dangerous rival to his protege Tess, and, although he knows better than to kill her himself, he probably intends that Pierce kill her before he kills the agent. The possibility that Liz's connection to Max has given her extraordinary abilities is most strongly suggested by the visions Liz experiences with Nasedo. Both times she experiences the dark landscape of his alien psyche, Nasedo seems unaware that she has has done so. If he isn't deliberately project these images to her, they can only be explained as the result of her own ability. None of the mitigating circumstances that cloud the origin of her visions with Max are present in this case. Liz has no connection with Nasedo, Nasedo is not drunk, and no outside force is likely operating on the two of them. Consequently, it appears that Liz is demonstrating powers that only the aliens should have. The idea that Liz is unique is reinforced in many ways. Clearly, the FBI special squad has a particular interest in her. Topolsky tells Alex that her "friends" will run "medical tests" on Liz. Though Nasedo tells Max that the unit is only interested in him, Nasedo has already admitted to Liz that Pierce desperately wants her as well: "he knows what Max did to you . . . . he needs information." Clearly, Liz is aware of her distinctiveness and its potential importance. For Liz, the lowest point in the Tess affair was when Max told her that he had visions when kissing Tess. This ill-advised admission deflates Liz's anger, and she sobs, "I guess I'm not so special after all." She runs away to bury her head in her legs and cry unreservedly-- something we've never seen Liz do even though she's certainly suffered many crippling emotional blows including the death of her grandmother. However, apparently losing her unique status in relation to Max is the one thing that cracks through her stoic reserve. So, not only has Max and Liz's relationship been portrayed as exceptional from the beginning, but Liz herself has repeatedly been shown to be "different." Reading backwards from all the events that follow, the wonderful line that Max begins and Liz finishes at the end of the pilot -- "We're just . . . different" -- can now be taken two ways. It can simply mean what it appeared to mean at the time, that Max and Liz significantly "differ" from one another. But from all the evidence cited above, it seems equally possible to reinterpret it to mean that Max and Liz "differ" from everyone else -- alien or human. More importantly, the "change" that began when Max healed Liz may well have made it possible for her to join him in fulfilling his destiny. Only time will tell. BehrAll     Posts:253    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-04-2000 03:06 AM Wow, just ... wow. Tepp, if that is the edited version, where is the thread with the rest? I love how well thought out and reasonable it is ... and how much I want -- no, need -- it to be true. That post says just about everything I've felt and feel about the character of Liz Parker. Wow. RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 04:30 AM quote: Originally posted by tepp: In "Sexual Healing," Liz may have proved that she is capable of taking Tess's place in Max's intended destiny. Tess tells the other aliens that they have a predetermined destiny, part of which is to pair off and procreate. She also tells them that the alignment of the constellations has induced dreams, visions, and urges that are intended to facilitate this end. The "visionary fever" that Max and Liz experience in "SH" and that eventually leads them to the buried orb may very well be a part of this same phenomenon. If that is true, then Liz apparently takes the part that was originally meant for Tess. More importantly, Liz plays her part successfully; she is more than a match for the alien female. Nasedo's appearance in the desert can be taken to mean many things; however, one explanation is that he knew that it was time for Max to be drawn to the orb he himself had buried, and he was just waiting there to see who showed up. Perhaps, he got something he didn't expect -- Liz. Despite his protests to the contrary, Nasedo does not kidnap Liz because he needs her to make his plan work. Indeed, his plan fails precisely because he takes her with him. He takes her because he sees Liz as a real and dangerous rival to his protege Tess, and, although he knows better than to kill her himself, he probably intends that Pierce kill her before he kills the agent. Reading backwards from all the events that follow, the wonderful line that Max begins and Liz finishes at the end of the pilot -- "We're just . . . different" -- can now be taken two ways. It can simply mean what it appeared to mean at the time, that Max and Liz significantly "differ" from one another. But from all the evidence cited above, it seems equally possible to reinterpret it to mean that Max and Liz "differ" from everyone else -- alien or human. More importantly, the "change" that began when Max healed Liz may well have made it possible for her to join him in fulfilling his destiny. Only time will tell.[/B] tepp, you never cease to amaze me with your extraordinary insights and revelations. You always manage to comfort this Dreamgirl's heart with the amazing way you tie together the "whole picture." Thank you. I would like to comment on the above three statements. #1 In SH, I sensed that Liz was the "instigator" of all the sexual activity. When Max enters the CrashDown to see Liz, he seemed to be there innocently just to see her and speak to her about all that was put on hold during the crisis in ID. But as soon as he is in her presence and touches her hand as they scoop up the strawberries, he senses a change in her. Liz reminded me of an animal "in heat." He can't resist her "scent of sexuality", hence the scene in the kitchen, where he finds himself uncharacteristically grabbing her to him and kissing her with an almost uncontrollable urgency. It was Liz in this episode who seemed affected by the lining up of the stars or whatever that put her sexuality in motion. Max was drawn to her throughout this ep, seemingly out of control every time he was near her, while Liz seemed in total control, taking the lead in every sexual scenario. #2 Nasedo's hoping Peirce will "eliminate the threat Liz" by killing her seems very likely here. When Liz says to him, "What kind of hostage would I make? Peirce would only kill me?" and Nasedo remarks, "Now that's an interesting thought", I wondered about that comment. After reading your post, this now makes sense to me. #3 Your views on the Pilot of their being "different" from others is further strengthened by Max' comments, "It's not safe, Liz, you know, for you and me, it's not safe." Your view on this brings about a whole new meaning for what Max says here. tepp, again I thank you for your brilliant insights. [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-04-2000).] HookedAussie     Posts:182    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 05:34 AM tepp: Thank you Thank you thank you for that wonderful post. It is a wonderful balm for an every growing anxiety knot. I agree with BehrAll - what thread was that edited from? ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 33    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 06:08 AM Tepp- extraordinary pos. Please, if you care to, perhaps repost the full edited version or direct us to the original. Is it in the Soulmates thread (I have downladed, but haven't finished reading it, I've been so busy). I would also like to read your post about the desert imagery. What are some of your thoughts on the consequences of this type of relationship on their lives and destinies/choices? LSS, I agree that the metalic book is quite suspicious and, as you say, the crudeness bothers me. someone earlier perceptively referred to Tess' possible motives for needing pictures. Tess just seems to be be a product of her "upbringing" due to an unemotional (no compassion? ?no conscience, etc) guardian); she engages in magical and two-dimensional thinking and other immature behaviors that appear to have been "patterned". Like a 13 year old in hoochie-mamma clothes and spike heels. I think that she is, inspite of her or Hardiings' wishes, will be humanized enough to give Max up and/or help them all (and herself). She may turn against Harding. I think she doesn't understand the change in herself and her ambivalence. she knows what she was taught or not taught. Now she is in contact with people and their powerful emotions and compassions. Rosta Elliott     Posts:828    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-04-2000 06:49 AM Whoa. ROStaFEHRian and Tepp have given us a lot of cool things to think about and discuss. ROSta, I would love to pick up on your theories about how alien/human MIM are biologically, but I do spoilers and they reveal some nuggets on this subject. Unfortunately they can't be discussed here. As usual Tepp, you wrote a clear, intelligently reasoned and beautifully expressed thesis supporting the idea (which all Dreamers seem to subscribe to instinctively) that Liz and Max may not be as biologically 'different' from each other as they now imagine. I wish I thought the writers/producers intended this from the beginning. Perhaps they did. At the least, your post made me want to unearth and read the ROSWELL 'Bible' that must have been worked up about the story arcs of all the characters and couples. Whether originally intended or not, you show that the groundwork for making Liz and Max members of the same hybrid species has been laid. And the creative team would miss a good bet if they didn't follow up on this and lead the plot in that direction all next season. Tepp, you seem to feel that Nasedo may actually suspect that something like this has happened. If so, it buttresses the hunches of many here that Tess and Nasedo are leading MIM down the garden path a bit, inventing a 'destiny' that may be wholly or in part a fiction. It seems (per spoilers) we will learn how Max biologically differs from humans in 'The White Room.' The ghastly experiments will be the first ever done on him, and should give us some rich material for further discussion, even as we gnash our teeth and rend our clothes in grief and indignation. And Tepp, your post also makes me eager to have Liz examined, but by a more benign figure than Pierce. Is her body chemistry changing day by day? Are 'new' cells or connections replicating? And is this what the alien replicating 'pairs' were intended to avoid? LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 07:24 AM Tepp: Well done--as usual. Your brilliant analysis of Liz's characterization is wonderfully put. Several points evoke further comment: 1) THE CHANGED LIZ. You have done a great job of documenting the bond between Liz and Max--a bond characterized by an uncommon trust and loyalty. While this loyalty/trust been noted before, what you are suggesting is that this bond has physical as well as psycho-social elements. And that somehow the physical is related to the psycho-social. I hadn't really thought of it in that way. In a sense, it is "like calling to like" isn't it? But you know, I think I'd like to push the psycho-social bond back to even before the healing and the subsequent change. When the child Max leaves the cave, he is reluctant to leave behind the curly headed Tess. It is only after the mute plea by Isabel, that he finally turns his back on the one as yet unopened pod. Soon after this, on his first(?) day of school, he sees a dark haired little girl with curls playing and he is instantly smitten. I hate to suggest that Liz becomes Tess' surrogate in Max's psyche, but that is certainly what it looks like. If what you are saying is true--and I emphatically think it is--then this bonding is completed on a physical level during the events of Pilot. Perhaps instead of the healing being the causal factor that evokes the psycho-social bond, we could think of it in reverse, that the long-standing psycho-social connection that Max makes (on his side at least) with Liz earlier on is what laid the grounds for the physical changing which is initiated in the Pilot? This completion makes Liz the wild card that none of the aliens responsible for the engineering of our alien teens could have foreseen. What would REALLY be interesting is if the these aliens "mated for life". If so then Liz is Max's mate (in all but deed) now without doubt, and Tess' situation is somewhat tragic (I know, I know, some of us do not like Tess and do not want to feel sorry for her, but...) 2) LIZ AND MAX'S DESTINY. If the above is correct, then Liz has some major acceptance issues to confront in the remaining episodes as well as the Fall season story arc. Not only is she currently being confronted with more aliens than she ever thought existed in Roswell, but who is to say that there might not be more aliens beyond Roswell's horizon (and some of these very well might be the "bad" aliens she fears). Liz will also have to win acceptance from aliens other than our teen trio. While I have faith in Liz--a faith born of her past loyalty (which you have so ably noted), I do not know how other aliens will view her. It will be interesting to see, for example, how the SS treats her from now on. Will the loyalty he feels as protector of our alien teens ever extend to their human friends? More importantly, will he ever accept Liz as Tess' successor? And if he doesn't does that make him an active threat to Liz? (We saw in M2TM how Max responds to threats to Liz.) Of course the real issue -- which you spoiled posters know we cannot deal with on this thread--is what happens if Max's destiny involves more than simply a preselected mate (being purposefully vague here--and if you comment on this please do the same for our unspoiled readers). If it does then can the various elements of the destiny be separated? That is, to be faithful to the one, does he have to be faithful to the other. If this is the case, then that tragedy we spoke of earlier extends to both Max and Liz as well. Like Tepp, I have faith in our storyline and that Liz is without doubt the appropriate mate for Max. But like Katims said--"huge obstacles" folks. LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-04-2000).] SF     Posts:84    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-04-2000 08:16 AM Ugh, I've been lured out of lurking by this great thread. I'll keep it short. tepp - brilliant post. I really loved your final SH scene analysis. Nemo - the "bat signal" is just an analogy to how batman got called in the movies. The people who wanted him would send a beam of light into the sky, just like the SS did. But the symbol was the "galaxy" symbol as on the orb and map. Rosta, LSS: The book looks home-made to me. Rosta, after I read your Voyager post, it occurred to me that maybe this information was imprinted on the ship's skin, and "someone" cut the relevant metal from the ship, and made it into a book. If the message it contains is a forgery, it might be interesting if the trio would try to get a vision off the actual substance of the book. They might see who made it or where it came from. Even though they said they didn't recognize the language, some of the symbols on the written page are the same ones that show up in the map visions. Elliot wrote "And Tepp, your post also makes me eager to have Liz examined, but by a more benign figure than Pierce. Is her body chemistry changing day by day? Are 'new' cells or connections replicating? And is this what the alien replicating 'pairs' were intended to avoid?" Your last sentence is really provocative. If the 'pairs" destiny is partially to avoid their interactions with humans, someone, somewhere knew a Liz-type human change could happen. That does make me wonder what the alien destiny has to do with humans. Season 2 could be really interesting... Did anyone think it significant that Pierce (I assume) watched the video of MI talking about where Liz was getting the visions from? I'm wondering if there was any foreshadowing to showing the orb sitting on the table next to the TV. I read the scene to mean that Pierce's team started the orb emitting it's signals in SH. If that's the case then there's even more support for the idea that the alien special unit has a pet shapeshifter in it's employ. Now I really must go into full lurkdom. Elliott     Posts:828    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-04-2000 08:45 AM In line with the discussion of the last few posts, I just read a post by Syndee (whose moniker is new to me) on the 'Destiny' spoiler thread over on the Spoiler Board. She has a great analogy for how/why Max may have changed Liz, therefore making her 'suitable' as an alien mate: She suggests that Max's intervention to save Liz's life is akin to a king raising the status of the commoner he loves to the level of an aristocrat, therefore making her 'fit' to marry. Syndee comments that Max did this 'subconsciously.' And LSS has suggested that Max may have settled on Liz as his Tess 'substitute.' Either way, they seem happily inseparable, no matter what the season-closing cliffhanger may bring. I'm liking this because we're painting the ROSWELL writers into a corner here. Memo to creative team: See, you can keep Max and Liz together without it getting boring. There are lots of possibilities here, and true love can be wonderful, strange and exciting. Here's hoping we're unusually perceptive, and that you already have planned it our way. Liz&Max ARE Roswell     Posts:69    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-04-2000 09:04 AM As a long time lurker on this thread, I just want to delurk and let you all know how amazing and intelligent I think you are. LSS, Rosta, SF, Nemo, Janet, Elliot, Kate...just to name few of the hardcore SF posters - YOU GUYS ARE AMAZING! I have really enjoyed reading your well written and incredibly insightful views. This is the thread I look for after each show airs. I have never watched a SF show before, the magic of Max & Liz was what pulled my heart into Roswell, but this thread has educated me so much on SF mythology. Just a few observations I have made - I'm wondering if any of you have thought about, or noticed... 1st - Have you noticed that Nasedo/SS has only been shown shape shifting in a transportation vehicle? Our first view was after he killed Hank, the second one was in Crazy after he pretended to be Dr. Margolen, and this last episode, he shape-shifted into the clown in the bus? (After they escaped the house mirrors, it looks like Nasedo-Max pulled Liz into the bus for the purpose of shape-shifting.) Coincidence or some clue? 2nd - It appears that the hand holding the orb/communicator (watching the tape of Is & Michael from SH) before the opening credits of MttM could be a woman's hand! The features are very delicate!! If it is a woman - who could she be? I know one of you smart people can help me! [This message has been edited by Liz&Max ARE Roswell (edited 05-04-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 09:41 AM Liz and Max are Roswell: To speak to your first question: You know, although I saw what you noted, it never really "sunk in". The first thing I thought of when I read your post was the proverbial telephone booth that classical Superman used to change identities. All of the viewers knew, of course, that it provided only pseudo-privacy because it had glass sides! And when they made Superman into a move series they even has a spoof on this element (Superman goes to a telephone, but now it's an open air boooth). While the first two instances of shapeshifting occur in a vehicle that looks as if it is in an isolated location (after he buries Hank's body at the end of ID; in the yard of some indiustrial complex at the end of Crazy), this last transformation occurs in a larger vehicle in the middle of a carnival. And no one seems to take notice of the shaking vehicle and the light. Odd. Just like no one but the woman seemed to notice the streams of light. Odder still. So, here is what all these have in common: 1) ESCAPING BEAMS OF LIGHT. (Indicating the SS true essence--energy? Or simply revealing that energy escapes when the process takes place?) 2) WAVES OF FORCE/ENERGY. Sufficient, that is, to move the vehicle in which the transformation takes place (remember all those shaking vehicles). These apparently do not harm humans, for Liz is in close proximity to one of these happenings. It will be interesting to see if she "remembers" what happened and is able to relate this to the others. 3) ENERGY REPLACEMENT. In two of the three instances, the SS ingests something from what looks like a tic-tac container. In one instance he does this before he shifts as well. And in one instance he eats cotton candy--but there is a bit of time that elapses before he has to shift. 4) PROVATE LOCATION. In two of the three instances the vehicle selected is in a private location. In the third it is in a VERY public location but oddly no one notices the beams of light and the vehicles shaking. 5) TIME. All three occurances take place at night. Of course the three commented above are only the ones we as audience have been privy to seeing. Tess mentions upteen more and we also know that at some time Mr. Harding morphed into Max. That's about all I can say. Maybe Rosta can talk about some type of symbolic significance of choosing a transportation vehicle as a vehicle of transformation??? LSS GraceKel     Posts:462    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-04-2000 10:27 AM Hi guys enjoying all the brilliant posts, Tepp that was an amazing post you made. I think you could write for the show. I would trust you! LSS-back to the SLOW_MOS-it isn't enough to just be in slow motion you have to push PAUSE and then SLOWMO but I am telling you guys you can see the eyes and not just in the sleezy passion scene in M2M but in all the Tess induced visions-or maybe Nacedo-not quite sure who is at work here TESS or NASEDO or both but one or the other. I am telling you there are clues in the slow-mos--GO BACK TO EXIT SIGN in TLV in the back room when Tess becomes Liz kissing Max and put it in pause then slow and see what you think and then lets come back and talk about it! LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 10:49 AM Gracekel: I will do it tonight and get back to you tomorrow. LSS EmilyluvsRoswell     Posts:806    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-04-2000 11:16 AM Tepp, Just finished reading your post. All I can say is, brilliant. You've come up with some powerful stuff. I think you need to send this post along to Jason Katims -- in case he runs out of ideas for next season. Em shanonaetc     Posts:4    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-04-2000 11:28 AM I usually lurk here, but had to jump into the whole Nasedo SS topic: we have seen him change shape in daylight, not in a vehicle, and without the light and shaking: as he morphs from the side of the cave wall back into Harding to talk to Tess in the beginning of the episode. Not sure where I'm going with this or how it fits in, but I felt the need to point that out. Shannon shanonaetc     Posts:4    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-04-2000 11:29 AM I usually lurk here, but had to jump into the whole Nasedo SS topic: we have seen him change shape in daylight, not in a vehicle, and without the light and shaking: as he morphs from the side of the cave wall back into Harding to talk to Tess in the beginning of the episode. Not sure where I'm going with this or how it fits in, but I felt the need to point that out. Shannon LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 01:07 PM Shannon: You are quite right--let me qualify my above remarks to refer to those times when the SS morphs from one human form to another. Honestly--that cave scene has me stymied for a number of different reasons, some of which I have already mentioned in above posts: 1) It is the only time we see the SS shifting in the daylight w/o any of the telltale signs that accompany its usual shifts. 2) It is a shift from an inanimate to a biological (in appearance anyway) form. 3) It is accompanied by force--but not the usual kind...instead of having the cave walls shake, the SS is thrust out of the wall. I guess in my mind I was separating this type of shift from the one that involved purely biological forms. It will be interesting to see in future episodes just what really happens to the SS in these shifts. It has been suggested, for example, that the SS takes on some of the persona of the person whose form he assumes --this explains why as Max he enjoys kissing Liz and pulls her out of the building--i.e.a very Max type action). But this doesn't work for other figures (did he become like Hank in ID? Yeah, I know--IF that was the same SS). And of course how does one "take on" the attributes of a cave wall????? LSS tal     Posts:141    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 01:17 PM Nasedo was originally using Liz as a bargaining chip with the FBI wasn't he? Isn't it possible that he "saved" her to be used for the same reason later on rather than because he holds some of Max's feelings for her? LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 01:34 PM Tal: Actually I was just reporting what the argument thus far has been concerning the SS taking on aspects of the form into which he shifts. I am not persuaded of this (hence my example of Hank at the end of the post). I do think that the SS might like the vigor and "life" found in Max's body -- IF that body is a duplicate in more than simply form (gosh...wouldn't YOU enjoy the vigor and life in Max's body...opps...wrong thread to make that comment on...LSS blushes!) Sure--I agree that it might simply have been that Liz still had use as a hostage--or that the SS figured out that one way to get Max out was to take Liz (Liz = bait). Of course all of this is abandoned in the end when he shifts and goes back. BUT he does not kill Liz before he does this...even though she is the only human alive (as far as we know) that has actually seen the SS do his thing. Odd. LSS LSS LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 01:39 PM edited triple post! [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-04-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 01:46 PM Tal: Actually I was just reporting what the argument thus far has been concerning the SS taking on aspects of the form into which he shifts. I am not persuaded of this (hence my example of Hank at the end of the post). I do think that the SS might like the vigor and "life" found in Max's body -- IF that body is a duplicate in more than simply form (gosh...wouldn't YOU enjoy the vigor and life in Max's body...opps...wrong thread to make that comment on...LSS blushes!) Sure--I agree that it might simply have been that Liz still had use as a hostage--or that the SS figured out that one way to get Max out was to take Liz (Liz = bait). Of course all of this is abandoned in the end when he shifts and goes back. BUT he does not kill Liz before he does this...even though she is the only human alive (as far as we know) that has actually seen the SS do his thing. Odd. LSS LSS JKBosco     Posts:555    Registered: Jan 99 posted 05-04-2000 01:51 PM While in bio lab today studying cytoplasm (eww) something occured to me. A female egg is divided into four different pieces, but three of these turn into cytoplasm, and only one does the actual "egg work." So the egg has a lot of cytoplasm in it, so it's kind of like yolk. The pods could be the aliens eggs, and that gooey stuff they were covered in reminded me of cytoplasm. Maybe that's an arguement against the genetically-engineered aliens. Egg is associated with mother, which makes it more natural. Emily LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 02:04 PM bump to see if I can get a post to show JKBosco     Posts:555    Registered: Jan 99 posted 05-04-2000 02:10 PM While in bio lab today studying cytoplasm (eww) something occured to me. A female egg is divided into four different pieces, but three of these turn into cytoplasm, and only one does the actual "egg work." So the egg has a lot of cytoplasm in it, so it's kind of like yolk. The pods could be the aliens eggs, and that gooey stuff they were covered in reminded me of cytoplasm. Maybe that's an arguement against the genetically-engineered aliens. Egg is associated with mother, which makes it more natural. Emily Kate6058     Posts:1128    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-04-2000 04:31 PM double [This message has been edited by Kate6058 (edited 05-04-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 05:09 PM I am trying to get people's post "on the board". Roswell South     Posts:51    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 05:44 PM I think it might be for one(or more) of several reasons. There's always a reason for something that happens in a movie, and the fact that max healed liz must make her a part of something they don't know yet in the future.. anyway.. 1) since max healed liz, there seems to be a "connection" between them, along with the visions, that is like that for some other reason. we already heard that tess was suppost to be max's mate, but could this indicate that something might happen to tess to as where liz would come in handy to replace her? 2) as was said, he might have accumulated some of max's personality traits or feelings, or some sort of connection between him and the real max's bodies that gave him the instinct to get liz out of there. 3) the far-fetched rumor that Liz might be somehow related to them. i do believe for a fact, however, that there is such a similar connection between her and the rest of the aliens since max healed her. Roswell South     Posts:51    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 05:49 PM I think it might be for one(or more) of several reasons. There's always a reason for something that happens in a movie, and the fact that max healed liz must make her a part of something they don't know yet in the future.. anyway.. 1) since max healed liz, there seems to be a "connection" between them, along with the visions, that is like that for some other reason. we already heard that tess was suppost to be max's mate, but could this indicate that something might happen to tess to as where liz would come in handy to replace her? 2) as was said, he might have accumulated some of max's personality traits or feelings, or some sort of connection between him and the real max's bodies that gave him the instinct to get liz out of there. 3) the far-fetched rumor that Liz might be somehow related to them. i do believe for a fact, however, that there is such a similar connection between her and the rest of the aliens since max healed her. Kate6058     Posts:1128    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-04-2000 08:19 PM tepp -- Thank you for saying everything I've always wanted to say about Liz... lol. I love reading your posts on the spoiler board, and I'm glad you decided to join us here Everything you said was great... and like Elliott said, the writers would be stupid to pass up a storyline opportunity like this one and not follow through with what they've set up for Liz, whether it was intentional or not. I really think that Liz has something over Tess besides Max's tre love. LSS -- Where have you been lately? email me or something! I think I figured out something from The White Room promo tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 08:57 PM BehrAll, HookedAussie, et al: Believe me that IS the whole thing. The version on the other thread was less coherent, and email exchange I had with Provence after I posted it gave me a couple of new ideas. Those here who know me, know I never make 'em shorter, only longer and longer. I probably should have summarized the first part -- about Liz being constantly portrayed and referred to as "different" -- into a few sentences. However, all day today I've been thinking of more examples of this kind of thing. Of course, there are much more mundane reasons to explain all the specific examples -- she's going through puberty, she has fallen in love, she's suffered a trauma, she's been given a tremendous responsibility, she's keeping a big secret, etc. That's why I thought it was important to give some sense of the sheer number of these references to change and difference. RemyS: To avoid offending some people, I have tended to use the term "fever" to describe Max and Liz's behavior in "SH." However, it looked pretty much like they were "in heat" to me too. I also agree that Liz was and always has been the one to instigate sexual behavior. I've said before that if I actually knew them in reality and had been privy to only a part of what I know from the show, I would be totally convinced that Liz was more than ready to relinquish her virginity to Max. The writers can always make things go any way they want, but if Max was my friend that's what I would tell him -- it's yours if you want it. However, though Liz was the more sexually agressive of the two in "SH," I think your "heat" analogy still applies to both of them. Whatever was going on was happening to the pair. In the infamous strawberry scene, all it took was a single spark to set off the raging fire in both of them. My question has always been, when did this "heat" or "vision fever" actually start. I apologise to those who've seen this before, but I want to know if Max came to the Crashdown BECAUSE he was in heat, or did he just succumb to his existing passion for Liz when he kissed her and THAT KISS started the fever? I had even thought that the "vision fever" may have begun with the kiss in "BD" and just simmered below the surface until erupting in "SH." But Tess's revelations suggest this other, more provocative explanation. So here it is one more time. (1)Despite their obvious attraction for one another, Max and Liz were not behaving normally in "SH." Something internal or external was driving them to use sexual activity to achieve a specific goal. Once the goal was accomplished, the abnormal behavior stopped. (2) Since the goal was the recovery of the alien orb (whose significance I know but cannot reveal here), we can assume that the fever was "alien" and it probably has something to do with this "alien destiny" that Tess alludes to. (3) Max could not have achieved the goal without Liz. Her ability (whether temporary or now permanent) to have visions provided the roadmap to the goal-object. Max learned nothing except from her. So, two people spontaneously begin behaving abnormally, and this shared behavior induces visions in one or both that lead to a discovery that will presumably help fulfill the aliens' destiny. Isn't this exactly what Tess says is happening between her and Max and Michael and Isabel? Isn't this the kind of phenomena she attributes to a predetermined alignment of the stars which awakens dormant areas of their minds? If it is the same sort of phenomenon (and if it quacks like a duck, it's probably a duck), then Nasedo is NOT any more responsible for what happens to Max and Liz in "SH" than he is for Michael and Isabel's dream pregnancy. On the contrary, it is a predetermined sequence of event that the aliens have been programmed to experience. However, Liz experiences it too. I supose it's possible that Max just needs a warm body to uncover his hidden knowledge, but Liz is not just a warm body, is she? Liz is his "SOULMATE." He calls her that himself. Tess believes that she and Max were literally "made for each other," but Liz's ability to fulfill the goal of "SH" suggests that she can rightfully claim a similar distinction. Elliott, LSS, et al: I don't know that it's necessary for Liz to have been physically changed. Maybe she has, but I'm not sure that if Pierce could do an "alien autopsy" on her that he would find anything remarkable. However, I think it's clear that she is now "different" in some important way. She is spiritually connected to Max and he to her. I'm convinced that this "soul" business on Roswell is dead serious and literal. I saw a promo for next week's "Dawson's Creek" in which Joey is referred to as Dawson's "soulmate." But it's not the same thing. When Max and Liz say they "saw into each other's souls," they are not speaking by analogy or symbolically; they are not using a synonym for psyche, or mind, or consciousness, or anything else that depends on a physical presence. They are talking about the kind of non-corporeal essence that Max draws from the brain-damaged Grandma Claudia -- the intangible thing we call the soul. I have to watch what I say here, but I'm also not sure it's going to be necessary for Liz to be physically different for her to take Tess's place as Max's mate. I think it's more important that something like what is described in the post that Elliott cites by Syndee is taking place -- that Max has converted or altered Liz's status in some way. It may even be that Max's regard for Liz is alone sufficient to earn her acceptance by some or all the other aliens. It seemed to me in "MttM" that Michael and Isabel's reaction to Liz's peril and Tess's indifference to it revealed a concern and "fellow-feeling" for Liz that they might not have realized they had beforehand. No matter what their attitudes had been towards her before, it was clear that they closed ranks around her when she was in danger, and, like Max, they saw Liz as the insider and Tess as the outsider. And, boy was that gratifying. Finally, one very earthbound reason I think it's unnecessary that Liz has been changed physically is that I'm relatively sure of one thing. At some point in this series, at least one of these cross-species couples is going to "do it." It is going to happen sooner or later, people. It has to. It may not be Max and Liz who go first (but it'd better by God be), but someone is going to test Maria's insect-mating theory before this thing is over. tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 09:19 PM Doggone it [This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-04-2000).] amx     Posts:68    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 09:30 PM Rosta, Sorry for the overly familiar 'nick-name' since we haven't 'talked' directly before. In response to your comments about your Tabasco post not being replied to - it was! There was a fairly long and involved discussion based on the points you raised by myself and a number of others - but I can't remember which SF of.... thread it appeared. As to the rest of the discussion;absolutely riveting! Unfortunately, since the episode won't screen here in Australia until much later in the year and I only have spoilers to go on, I don't feel competent to comment. However, when the transcript goes up I may have something to add. amx amx     Posts:68    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 09:35 PM Rostafehrian, In response to your comments about your Tabasco post not being replied to - it was! There was a fairly long and involved discussion based on the points you raised by myself and a number of others - but I can't remember on which SF of.... thread it appeared. As to the rest of the discussion; absolutely riveting! Unfortunately, since the episode won't screen here in Australia until much later in the year and I only have spoilers to go on, I don't feel competent to comment. However, when the transcript goes up I may have something to add. amx amx     Posts:68    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 09:36 PM Rostafehrian, In response to your comments about your Tabasco post not being replied to - it was! There was a fairly long and involved discussion based on the points you raised by myself and a number of others - but I can't remember on which SF of.... thread it appeared. As to the rest of the discussion; absolutely riveting! Unfortunately, since the episode won't screen here in Australia until much later in the year and I only have spoilers to go on, I don't feel competent to comment. However, when the transcript goes up I may have something to add. amx Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-04-2000 09:58 PM As for why the cave walls don't shake when Harding morphs: the rocks have a lot more inertia than a car (and have no flexible suspension), so the same force would move them a lot less. But I think we see him not morphing but arriving. I think he teleports in, although it could be that he just walks in; either way, solid walls don't block him. (Remember, Tess explained "he doesn't have a human body." And the sheriff wondered how he could resemble someone 3000 miles away. We wondered how he knew what Dr. Margolin looked like. And how he could be guarding our friends in Roswell while he's working at Fort McClellan in Alabama and living there with Tess.) If this is right, it gives us some idea how he might try to free Max from a sealed room. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 10:20 PM Nemo--you know I suggested teleportation before but didn't pursue it because it is so different from any power we've seen or even had hinted at. But as I said before, the alternative is to think that either 1) the SS was supposed to meet Tess there, or 2) the SS likes to hang out in cave walls! I mean--if the SS was there all along then WHY? But if it/he can teleport then what we saw was an "arrival". I don't know--if it teleportation then we are looking at a completely new SF element. But then, these seem to abound in these last episodes! LSS Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-04-2000 10:34 PM About Harding's shape-shifting habits: I am guessing that if necessary he could shift anywhere, but he uses the car or bus (and a secluded location, if time permits) to be less conspicuous. Same as the phone-booth idea mentioned by LSS: it lets him partly hide, it lets us partly see. Also, maybe the metal frame of a vehicle acts as electromagnetic shielding, reducing the radiated energy. (Who knows what Pierce can pick up, or from what distance?) I think the shape-shifting at the carnival was exceptional in that Harding was still in a fight, time was critical. So he didn't top off his energy reserves; that's something he does between battles. He didn't seek the least conspicuous place, he just used the bus because it was nearby. Maybe the background noise and flashing lights of the carnival masked his activity. Maybe he doesn't care much what humans notice; it's mainly Pierce he hides from. And Pierce already knows he's there. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 10:37 PM Tepp So nice to have you posting on the SF thread. I guess I DO lean toward some type of physical change in Liz, because Liz herself describes the feeling that something "chemical" is happening to her. Moreover she displays physical symptoms (glowing hickies, rashes, visions) that seem way beyond anything that Maria experiences in her MANY make-out sessions with Michael. I know that some people suggest that Maria doesn't get visions because Michael isn't "open" enough. But that logic doesn't work with the rash and hickey! Moreover, the fact that she can receive visions from the SS/Max says to me that something has happened to her to allow this to happen. LSS amx     Posts:68    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-04-2000 10:45 PM Ok, this time it wasn't my fault - the board seems to have gone beserk! amx [This message has been edited by amx (edited 05-07-2000).] Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-04-2000 11:00 PM LSS, yes I remember you mentioned teleportation as a possibility. I meant my remarks to be supportive of yours. (Sorry I didn't acknowledge that earlier.) I was surprised that suggestion didn't catch on earlier, because it would explain some things. And, as you said, why would Harding lurk in caves? It looked as if H. went to the cave only to protest Tess's bringing the others there. I wonder where he was when he noticed her doing that. Can he also sense things at a great distance? About Pierce or whoever was watching the surveillance videorecordings: they seemed to take particular notice at the mention of Nasedo. I think one reason Harding's plan failed was that Pierce was very aware of him. And I no longer conjecture that the military types who charged into Harding's new house might have been sweeping the place to make it safe for him. Of course it now looks more likely that those were Pierce's operatives, as others said at the time. (So when Harding brings the camera to the sheriff saying "I found this in my house" we can wonder which one it is, the one Alex had, or one placed by Pierce?) Breathless     Posts:165    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-04-2000 11:37 PM I'm almost afraid to post here because your thoughts are so deep and well thought out, but here goes. MMI&T were engineered for a purpose, perhaps to perpetuate the species. M&T were intended to mate as were M&I. But when MM&I became assimilated into the human world, they lost contact with their alien side. They were not raised in a controlled environment with a predetermined future. Being raised human they were able to see the possibilities that lay before them all based on the knowledge they were free to choose the path they wanted to take. Nasedo, not being human, may not be able to understand the human desire to be free to make your own choices. If MMI&T were the product of advanced alien cloning combined with human DNA, M&T and M&I may have been mates in their original state. Nasedo may have been given the charge of teaching them their past so their new incarnation would continue in the same direction, basically pick up where they left off so to speak or maybe even repeating the past life they shared. But when MM&I left the cave their intended future changed. Nasedo is utterly and completely alien with no ěhumanî emotions or morals. Max, Michael and Isabel have been raised human and have developed human emotions and a sense of what is morally right and wrong. Tess on the other hand has the same human genetics as MM&I, but having been raised by Nasedo she never learned how to be human. She may have been raised to believe that humans are inferior or worthless. Thus her comment ěLiz is human. She has nothing to do with us.î Tess can not understand how MM&I could have any attachment for a mere human. Has she been lonely for the other 3 or has her life with N left her devoid of any humanity. If so, she will never fit in with MM&I because they are completely human in mind and spirit. Concerning Liz being changed, I agree with what seems to be the general consensus that Max did change Liz when he healed her. Their connection opened up something in Liz. She is the only human that has seen visions. Prior to Max to the Max, her visions could be explained by saying that Max purposely sent them to her. That is exactly what he did in the Pilot. He opened up his mind to her so that she could see that ěitís still meî as he put it. In Blind Date Lizís vision at the end could be explained by Max being drunk and thus letting down his defenses and opening himself up to her. In Sexual Healing the visions could have been coming from Max or from an external source, such as the orb. However, in Max to the Max, Liz had visions when she kissed Nasedo masquerading as Max. When Liz pulled away from Max/Nasedo in the car it appeared that he had no idea that she had seen a vision. That means the vision could only have come from inside Liz. When Liz tells Nasedo ěever since he (Max) saved my life at the CrashdownÖHe changed meî Nasedo has a big smirk on his face. When Liz followed with ěWe saw into each otherís soulsî the smirk got even bigger. Does Nasedo believe there is no ědeep connectionî between Max and Liz. Why would he believe a human could even come close to what Tess has to offer Max. But if Max did change Liz, then Liz would be on more equal ground. Nasedo probably has no understanding of the human emotions involved here. When Tess was left behind, the bond that was intended for M&T was broken. Max then met and fell in love with Liz. Was Liz just a substitute for Tess? Maybe. But Isabel and Michael did not bond on any level beyond sibling love even though they were intended as mates, so I think Maxís bond with Liz had everything to do with the human quality of love and nothing to do with an alien drive to simply find a mate to replace the one he lost. One last thought, I think Nasedo may have killed Agent Pierceís dad. Pierce said that his father (a sheriff in Las Vegas, NM) was killed in the line of duty. Pierce is consumed with the hunt for aliens. Seems like a personal vendetta to me. tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 12:48 AM Breathless: That's an interesting point about Pierce's father. Pierce's mention of it certainly got Valenti's attention. I've heard a lot of people say, including Tess herself, that Nasedo has no "human" feelings. However, not only is he emotional, he's perhaps overly so. He revels in tormenting and killing humans. He obviously tortured Hank before murdering him -- something a dispassionate assassin would see no need to do. He revels in Liz's discomfort, and he continually taunts and baits her just because he enjoys it. He expresses his didain for humans by shooting the bat signal up the dress of a woman who loudly ridicules those who believe in aliens. He enjoys killing the FBI agent and toying with Pierce. His frequent anger occasionally causes him to act rashly. Nasedo appears to regard humans as an annoyance at best. At worst, they are threats to his plans. He seems to feel that he is a superior being (as does Tess) and believes that anything that achieves his ends is justified. As I said, I think he singles Liz out as a special threat. Though he tries to convince her otherwise, I think he's actually aware of her importance to Max and therefore afraid of her, and that's why he doesn't kill her himself. Nasedo's plan fails because he lets his emotions cloud his judgement. He hates Liz perhaps more than he fears Pierce. Max and Liz's relationship is offensive to Nasedo, and he wants her dead, so he risks the person he is charged to protect, Max, trying to bring that about. [This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-05-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-05-2000 06:53 AM Tepp & Breathless: Interesting thought concerning the SS and Liz. There are several aspects of their relationship in M2TM that are interesting: 1) The SS reveals quite a lot to Liz...the mandate about T & M; the actual transformation process...and yet he lets her live...when killing her would only take a moment. 2) The physical dimension of their time together--if he has no emotions then how can he enter into that kiss--and believe me, he does--look at JB's actions in that car. 3) You know, I thought that the SS had no emotions too--but both Tepp and a previous poster argued against that. Actually, I think Tess says in the episode that the SS does not have a "human side". I'm not quite sure what that means for the writers. In my SF review of this episode I devoted a paragraph to this question. And Breathless--that is a good point about the father...at the time I simply thought he was pulling Valenti's strings to gain entrance into his confidence...but maybe you are right. The kind of passionate devotion to duty he displays may indicate a score he is trying to settle. LSS JanetMG     Posts:176    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-05-2000 07:06 AM Just a quick warning to other Sci Fi thread lurkers and posters who (like me) try to avoid spoilers. The "Random SF Thoughts" thread contains spoilers. Elliott     Posts:828    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-05-2000 08:11 AM On Nasedo & Liz: I don't think we need to get hung up on why Nasedo Max enjoyed that kiss with Liz. On a purely physical basis, the sensations of the kiss and the lust it aroused in the seventeen year old body Nasedo was assuming must have been intoxicating after years of mostly inhabiting the 45+ body of Harding. And I think Nasedo would have gone quite as far as Liz would have let him. Remember that Harding was a widower and no charmer. I would go further into sleaze territory here by reminding everyone of what looked like a leer on the face of Nasedo while he watched Max and Liz sleeping together in 'Sexual Healing.' I don't think Nasedo places any value on human attachments because he hasn't the emotional equipment to understand them. And unlike Tepp, I don't think he realizes how important Max and Liz are to each other. He surely knows (but doesn't care) that Liz is stuck on Max, in the typically silly way of humans. But I think he has projected his own contempt for humanity onto Max. I believe he thinks that Max and Liz did the deed in the desert and that Max was just getting frisky in his superb human body. And I think Nasedo was looking forward to getting some of that with Liz. I think it is only when Max actually shows up to save Liz in the Hall of Mirrors that it probably begins to dawn on Nasedo that there is a real bond here, and not just from Liz's side. Remember how shocked he looked to see the real Max. He must have counted on Tess to explain to Max and the others what Nasedo's plan was (which she did to no avail). He certainly didn't count on seeing Max there. As to why Nasedo saved Liz: I don't think we need feel that Nasedo was warming toward Liz. He is implacably pragmatic. When the real Max showed up, Plan A was ruined. Proceed to plan B: As it was now probable that Max would be caught, it was also imperative that Nasedo not be, because he was the only one who could save Max. While I think he was willing to sacrifice Liz to Pierce in Plan A, I don't think he wanted to give Pierce more ammunition than necessary in a hastily improvised Plan B. And why not kill her himself? Well, she's the star of the show, natch. Take TV-101, people! On the rapid transit Nasedo is capable of: Not surprising. Didn't we all feel this? And even our alien trio is capable of amazing physical feats: remember the long distances quickly and easily covered by Max and Michael in 'Blind Date' and 'The Convention' respectively? Not to mention Max's strength and nimbleness in 'BD.' I too think that Nasedo passed through the stone wall to enter the cave, rather than assuming the guise of stone. On Tepp's theory that Liz need not be 'physically' changed to be truly bonded to Max: Maybe. Your theory is heart-breakingly romantic and idealistic (Tepp, you must be getting a lot of mash notes since you started posting here) but would make for bad television. It would be much more dramatic (and visual) for future episodes if it is discovered that there is some anomaly in Liz's physical makeup, even if it's just in increased brain wave activity (which seems credible given the notion of the visions). This gives Max more power too, which is an idea I am always drawn to -- that Max is a natural alien aristocrat -- a king in disguise, even from himself. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-05-2000 08:39 AM Elliot: You wrote: "And why not kill her himself? Well, she's the star of the show, natch. Take TV-101, people!" Aww--come on Elliot...you know we could say that of alot of the show's story elements. But aside from the pragmatic aspects of the TV industry, storylines do attempt (at times) to have internal consistency. I don't have to tell YOU that the audience is given at least a fictive reason for believing what they see on the screen. Even our credibility can be stretched only so far. So--granted that Liz is the star and would not get "killed" off--WHY are we to believe that the SS spared her? I.e. -- ***there wasn't enough time ***he had further plans for her ***he didn't consider her a threat ***he realized that Max had feelings for her, ***He had feelings for her...etc. A good example of the gap between story element and credibility is found in that SH scene in the desert. You argued that M/L had sex that night. Others argued that the WB would not have permitted that. But you (I think) were only convinced when someone turned up that cut scene that gave you a logical reason why they stayed out there (if not to have sex). Whether or not the industry would have wanted them to have sex was not the issue--story credibility was. That's all we're doing when we raise the issue of the motivations behind the SS's actions. BTW--this is OT, but Elliot are you going to the LA gathering this summer? Would love to sit down and talk Roswell with you! LSS Jugular     Posts:148    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-05-2000 09:51 AM This is one of the most fascinating threads I've ever read. I just stumbled upon it so it's taken me a while to catch up on everything. I just hope I can live up to the brilliant thoughts everyone has expressed so far. (BTW, I'm spoiler-free, so these observations and theories are based simply on my wacked imagination.) IMHO, I truly believe that Max physically altered Liz. I guess that's my silly romantic dreamgirl heart talking here. That's what I want to believe, so I hope the writers make it so. I also think that this concocted alien bible Tess conveniently produced is an attempt to persuade MIM that they have a specific destiny to fulfill. I have a feeling that Tess and Mr. Harding (I'm not yet convinced he's Nasedo), though alien, may not be the same type of alien lifeform MIM are. I mean, who ever said there is only one kind of E.T. out there? The most obvious difference is the tabasco/tic tacs consumption. But what other discrepancies exist between them we don't even know about yet? Excuse me for an overactive imagination, but hear me out. Let's say they all came from the same planet/star. But the MIM-type species were superior to the Tess/Mr. Harding-types, supporting the theory of Max being the leader/king (thanks Rosta for this idea). And let's also speculate that the beings on this planet/star, consisting of both types (maybe more), got wind that their planet/star was going to be destroyed, therefore causing a mass exodus. Maybe the home planet dispatched eggs to Earth so they had a chance of survival before their planet/star was destroyed (kinda like how Superman came into being). Now how 3 superior/1 inferior alien ended up being in the same pod cluster, I don't know. I have a feeling Mr. Harding somehow had a hand in it. I think Mr. Harding is their "big brother", ensuring his inferior alien race is repopulated. With Tess being born with the others (plus the supposed destiny with their paired pod mate provided by the fake alien bible), these inferior beings (the Tess/Mr. Harding-type aliens) are trying to lie their way to dethroning the superior species. Which would explain why Tess and Mr. Harding seek out the sweets, while MIM look for the spicey. And it also provides proof why MIM didn't recognize the language displayed in the alien bible (maybe the inferior race spoke a different language than those of MIM's species). I know this is like waaaay out there, but I'd love to know if anyone else has any ideas as to why they came to our planet. Jugular [This message has been edited by Jugular (edited 05-05-2000).] ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 33    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 09:57 AM Happy Friday, Everyone! Hi AMX!!!! (Rosta *jumping up and down*waving arms over head*) I was wondering where you were! Great to see-ya, but I'm just doing a quick drive-by post. Yes, I know the discussion you are referring to. But (and, TRULY, I was only teasing! I'm anything but small and petty! ;-D ) I was referring to a whole 'nother thread way early March that disappeared off the MB in about 2 days. There were about 4 posters (none of whom I believe have posted in the SF threads). According to the counter, no one responded (altho' may have read) after I posted and it quietly receeded to the last pages and disappeared into the ether where retired messages go. NEMO, LSS -good point about the SS just entering/teleporting in. I think I recall your post about that LSS. I missed the scene in the cave, I think I had my back to the TV then while I was studying. Love this line of thought. It opens great SF possiblities, as you say. It raises sace-time/ interdimensional issues. Yum. I think Liz may be altered neurophysiologically. The change may be in the enhancement of the Limbic/Temporal lobe/right frontal cortx system (often referred to as the God Module, a term familiar to XFiles watchers). I don't have tim to expand on this. It is quite fascinating and a subject I love, but I just don't have time. I don't doubt that there may be some subtle (ie, not radiologically or chemically measurable by routine type of tests, except with very sophisticated DNA techniques). It's very scientifically explainable (ie, upregulation of gene expression including the unwinding/and transcription of "junk" DNA; jumping genes; modifications with a neuroendocrine etiology, etc). In other words, there is nothing that is truly out of the realm of possible. Liz may have a distinct genetic lineage which may make her destiny with Max more certain than they all know. A good part of the story arc may boil down to: when did THEY came here (just assuming they were not already here) and how MMIT (and humans) came to be, and the human/alien story. Are we in their image? Rosta! ...or you can call me Ray, or you can call me Jay....) ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 33    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 10:19 AM Hi Jugular Interesting points in your point. Hopefully I can get back to you later, but I can't just now. FYI, it was ELLIOT who came up with the messianic leader concept. I approached him/MMI/and Liz within the Grail contexts, and archetypes. I don't think the SF of SH thread is still around. Max fits the grail hero/Parcival role. The grail tales reflect differences in prominence/iportance of the roles and sometimes overlapping roles of the knights/guardians in their "shuffling" of grail adventures and partnerships. I am not totally sure who the leader is. By his history and the template, the grail hero should be Michael (the fatherless boy who appears to be the simple, immature one). However, by another tale, the hero, Parceval, finds his sister, finds his faith, marries, and ascends the throne after only being PARTIALLY succesful in the quest. In one version there is the holy marriage of 4 (??a 4 Square reference), and then the TRUE grailknight (Gawain ??Michael) comlpetes the quest, and then takes the most holy seat. Rosta (I really gotta go..) Elliott     Posts:828    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-05-2000 10:30 AM LSS, On the subject of internal logic vs. TV logic: Okay, okay, I'll stop being a spoil sport. Therefore on the question of why Nasedo didn't kill Liz: I think he had other more important things on his mind by that time. Remember that humans are beneath him. And killing Liz would have meant having her dead body found, and that would have put the suspicion on Max, who they knew 'abducted' Liz (per even Maria and Alex). This would have given poor Max even more problems for the period he was to be held by Pierce. And may have made Max less malleable later if Max hated Nasedo for killing his girl. Re whether Max and Lix did or didn't in 'Sexual Healing': This is hair-splitting, but for the record, I felt that Katims et al. deliberately left the question of whether they had sex or not open-ended. I privately thought they well may have. That opinion changed when I discovered the cut line of dialogue which gave them another reason to stay out in the desert all night. But since that line WAS cut from the show, I still think the intention of the creative team was to leave the question of whether they had sex open to debate with viewers. Especially since that episode was followed by five weeks of reruns. Jason Behr's recent interview comment that all the pairs on the show are still chaste settles the issue officially. But as far as what has been revealed on the show: we don't know for sure re Max and Liz one way or the other, do we? Re L.A.: I'd love to talk ROSWELL with you too, but I'm not planning to attend the L.A. outing, though the prospect of visiting the sets at Paramount, and perhaps viewing/meeting certain cast members is tempting. Probably too tempting. tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 11:18 AM Elliott: For once I have to disagree with you. You say that Nasedo enjoys the sexual sensations of his encounter with Liz, but then you say he's unequipped to understand human emotions. But how do you explain his frequent anger, his obvious disdain for humans, and the delight he clearly takes in demonstrating his superiority? He's no stoic Vulcan or mecahnical Terminator for sure. You call his actions "pragmatic," but I see them as rash and foolhardy. His "plan" to lure Pierce into a trap by posing as Max is, simply put, stupid. Although Pierce is the one who is already on Max's trail, Nasedo opens Max up to a whole host of threats. Several times the question has been raised as to why various authorities who are suspicious of Max haven't just "picked him up." For one thing, no one has had a justifiable reason to do so. They do now. Recall that Max's picture went out "over the wire" from another sheriff's jurisdiction in connection with a series of explosions at a gas station. Presumably, that sheriff now has a "hold for questioning" order attached to Max's image. All the things Nasedo does during this little adventure put Max at great risk. Nasedo doesn't know that Valenti is on the side of the gang, so how can he be sure that Liz's friends would not report her kidnapping (as they in fact do). Whose name was the rental car in? Even if it wasn't Max's, he could easily have been identified as the one driving it. Whose cell phone did Nasedo use to call the FBI? Liz's? All this puts Max Evans at the center of investigations into kidnapping, terrorism, and murder of a federal agent. This is a boy who tried to avoid even being noticed, and here's Nasedo using his likeness to send bat signals in front of hundreds of people. Perhaps no one could be sure that the phenomenon orginated from Nasedo/Max, but I'll bet that poor woman on the stage never forgets his face. Yes, Nasedo appears surprised when Max shows up in the hall of mirrors, but I think he's been deluding himself. Everything he does suggests someone acting irrationally, inspired by jealousy, rage, and zealousness. He takes Liz because she is a threat, and he wants to literally kill two birds with one stone. He tells her as much in the car -- "now that's an idea." It's HIS idea. Pierce kills Liz, he kills Pierce. He can try to explain away Liz being with him (not that that's such a good plan either), but he would not be able to explain away a silver handprint on her burned body. As for whether or not Nasedo realizes Liz's importance to Max, why even tell her that Tess is Max's destined mate? Sure he's trying to belittle her, but his excessive contempt suggests that he really wants to hurt her as deeply as he can before he gets her killed. He could only be expressing his disdain for her presumptuousness, but it seems much more to me than that. He doesn't need to take her with him, and he doesn't need to tell her anything about why he's doing this. He takes her because she is central to the plan, one of the two greatest threats he perceives to his mission - fulfilling this destiny. As for his dismissal of ML's connection, "methinks he doth protest too much." By the way, I only said that I didn't think it necessary for Liz to be changed physically. There's no evidence that she has, but she very well may have been. On the other hand, there's lots of evidence to support the less tangible, spiritual connection. Some people interpreted my original post to say that I definitely believed she'd been changed physically, which would be fine with me but is not what I intended. I just wanted to reemphasize my belief that she has been changed in some significant way and is now somehow unique ("Max Evans has put a force on me"). At this point, I think that's the furthest conclusion supported by the evidence. [This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-05-2000).] Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-05-2000 11:48 AM I agree with Elliott that Harding is pragmatic. (I also agree with Tepp that he can miscalculate badly.) And now H. begins to recognize how much Liz means to Max (even if he can't understand why). So H. can see that it would be counterproductive to harm Liz if he has any agenda that needs Max's cooperation. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 05-05-2000).] Elliott     Posts:828    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-05-2000 11:59 AM Tepp: I think the issue of what emotions if any Nasedo 'feels' is difficult to pin down at this juncture, even knowing spoilers as I do. You are unquestionably right about Nasedo's cruelty. He is a sadist, in fact. Yes, he certainly tortured Hank before killing him. Yes, he was toying with Liz and very likely imagined she would be a casualty of this expedition, perhaps even by his hand, if not Pierce's. Nasedo has been set up all season as a villain, a murderer, someone to fear. And we don't yet understand the motivations for his behavior. But as to what he actually feels while doing these things (if he indeed feels anything beyond physical sensations) we just don't know. Are cruelty or sadism emotional/psychological impulses? Certainly. They are also sexual impulses, albeit twisted ones. Nasedo may just be the embodiment of the classic de Sade libertine -- someone who lives for sensation alone, who disregards the feelings and rights of others, who is in fact completely narcissistic, if not actually psychotic. And who feels little or nothing himself because it is the lack of 'normal' feeling that spurs his behavior. (Jason Behr's portrayal of Nasedo/Max may well have been his take on the amoral Ripley of 'The Talented Mr. Ripley.' All that world-weary, cynical languor. He even played a couple of line readings rather 'gay.' His 'Pick one!' to Liz at the fair was done in classic abusive boyfriend mode, and didn't we hate ourselves for finding him so attractive at that moment?) In whatever incarnation, Nasedo SEEMS to register emotion because it is expressed through human faces and bodies. But he may FEEL nothing but the wind in his hair, life without care, etc. Let's hope we learn more about him and what distinguishes him from Max, Isabel, Michael and Tess in later episodes. [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 05-05-2000).] tal     Posts:141    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-05-2000 01:19 PM I,too, think that it would be counterproductive for SS to harm/kill Liz. She may be useful to the SS if he needs to control Max and force him to fulfill his alien destiny. RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 03:58 PM ***Good Grief*** I'm in "posting hell." [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:04 PM ***Was I having posting problems or what?????? [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:09 PM ***Don't even ask....... [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:15 PM ***What a miserable way to earn posting stars. [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:23 PM ***This is soooo embarrassing.*** [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:31 PM ***Blush*** [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:38 PM ***Can anyone guide me to "Computer 101?" [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:45 PM ***I can't believe this!!! [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:51 PM ***So sorry!*** [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 04:58 PM ***The worst part is that I'm having as much trouble deleting as I did posting. [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 05:04 PM ***Sigh*** [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 05:09 PM ***Aaarrrggghhh!!!*** [This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-05-2000).] RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 05:23 PM ***tepp, if Nasedo's main purpose on earth is to protect the alien "quartet" (hate saying that - prefer trio - sorry, don't care for Tess, don't think I ever will), then I agree with you that he has been nothing but stupid. His actions, especially since he appeared as Harding, have bordered on the ridiculous. He's been on earth for at least forty years (Atherton's body 1959), yet he seems to have failed to develop any redeeming traits of its inhabitants (humans). Forty years is a long time to be "away from home" and not pick up something good from your current surroundings. Sure, he has an agenda, but up until the last ten years since Tess emerged from the pod, what has he been doing with himself? Certainly, not being schooled in the art of social graces, morals, or ethics. This lends itself to the theory that he either does not have the capabilities of human emotions or, as Elliott pointed out, he is the epitomy of narcissism. With no one to teach or guide him in the ways of humans, he remains not unlike a toddler who thinks he/she is the center of his/her world. His stunted emotional growth is further enhanced by his constant need to change appearances. Does he somehow take on the psyche or at least part of it as well? And if he does, perhaps with no means of reference to a nurturing role model, he has no clue as to what to do with these emotions. It appears that if this is the case, then he acts on these "borrowed" emotions as would a child, in a selfish and self-absorbed manner. It reminds me of an episode of the original Star Trek series where the man believed by the Enterprise crew to be a powerful, tyrannical emperor who ruled only to satisfy his every whim, was in fact a child who eventually was taken away by his parents to be punished for misbehaving. Nacedo, at least so far, has no one to "take him away to be punished." And so, he is free to act as he chooses, driven by what he perhaps perceives as his divine right. After all, he may think, HE is the protector! He justifies his actions, regardless of how immoral or unethical they are, as necessary to protect his charges. But is he protecting them? His very lack of emotional maturity and control (something Tess also demonstrates) lends itself to the opposite. Every one of his actions thus far has put MIM in more danger, not less. Leneba     Posts:200    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-05-2000 07:24 PM I have to join the camp that thinks the SS teleported in to the cave or somehow passed through the stone, like you or I would move through water. But why did it look like he was pushed out of the stone? He must have been there for some time to have knowledge of their conversation (unless he can eavesdrop from great distances, a power which I don't care to attribute to him). Maybe he came out of the wall with such force (velocity? bear with me, my knowledge of physics is rudimentary at best) because it took a lot of energy to move with decent speed throught the material of the stone. With the sudden resistance of only air instead of rock, he just popped forward. My reason for thinking he moved through the rock is because of the scene where Tess reaches into the library wall to retrieve the book. Do the molecules of her hand move between the molecules of the wall? Does she simply push the material of the wall aside? And what about the book? Was it embedded in the wall or placed in a cavity within the wall? Does the book contain unique physical properties that allow it to be hidden in such a fashion? If it was the SS who buried the orb in the desert, why didn't he just sink it into the desert floor instead? Or sink himself in instead of running? I'm still not entirely convinced that the SS is indeed the Nasedo that Riverdog befriended. The individual he described is incongruous with what we know about the SS. If Nasedo was so inhuman (I don't mean physically), so cold and calculating, so incapable of intimacy, why would the perceptive Riverdog go out of his way to befriend this outsider? Either: 1) Riverdog is not who he seems, 2) There is more to the SS than what we've seen, or 3) There is yet another (presumedly kinder) alien out there. Sorry for the rambling nature of my thoughts! Alienwatcher Member Posts: 26    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-05-2000 07:48 PM Nacedo definately has human emotions - he's a sociopath without a conscience. Been thinking and I came up with these thoughts - I just throw them out. I think if the show returns next season we will find out that Agent Pierce is an alien. Think about it - why else would Nacedo be afraid of him when he's shown how easy it is for him to kill humans. All he need do is identify Pierce then kill him. I don't think that should make him afraid of Pierce. There has to be something more. I see the show taking on a similar plot and storyline to the show Earth Final Conflict. Maybe the alien's home planet has been attacked by another planet. Maybe they sent Max, Is, Michael and Tess to earth to hide them from the other aliens until they had grown, because they are a major key to the success of their planet. Maybe M/I/M/T's people came to earth because they knew earth would be the next attacked by the other planet and they hoped to join forces with humans. Maybe when they first arrived they realized humans were to primative, or were just unfriendly (i.e. the goverment who took them into custody) Maybe M/I/M/T's people are actually just another species of the same genus as humans (is that the right biology term? its been years since I've been in school) That would account for the simularities and differences between M/I/M/T and humans. Maybe Nacedo is actually the bio-engineered being who was created as caretaker and protector of M/I/M/T. Maybe something when wrong with him and he became evil. Maybe all the people on M/I/M/T's home planet are the same as they are. Not like Nacedo. Maybe Pierce is one of the other aliens that are attacking M/I/M/T's home planet and he was sent here to find and destroy M/I/M/T. What do you all think? One final thought - I don't think Tess is evil. I think she is a product of her upbring with Nacedo. She has never bonded with anyone. No parent, siblings, friends. All she knows is what Nacedo has told her all her life. She has a lot to learn. She, like Michael, has spent her entire life longing for and dreaming about some sort of conection with someone, in this case Max, because that is who Nacedo has told her she belongs with. But at lease Michael has had Max and Isabelle. Alienwatcher Member Posts: 26    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-05-2000 07:53 PM Nacedo definately has human emotions - he's a sociopath without a conscience. Been thinking and I came up with these thoughts - I just throw them out. I think if the show returns next season we will find out that Agent Pierce is an alien. Think about it - why else would Nacedo be afraid of him when he's shown how easy it is for him to kill humans. All he need do is identify Pierce then kill him. I don't think that should make him afraid of Pierce. There has to be something more. I see the show taking on a similar plot and storyline to the show Earth Final Conflict. Maybe the alien's home planet has been attacked by another planet. Maybe they sent Max, Is, Michael and Tess to earth to hide them from the other aliens until they had grown, because they are a major key to the success of their planet. Maybe M/I/M/T's people came to earth because they knew earth would be the next attacked by the other planet and they hoped to join forces with humans. Maybe when they first arrived they realized humans were to primative, or were just unfriendly (i.e. the goverment who took them into custody) Maybe M/I/M/T's people are actually just another species of the same genus as humans (is that the right biology term? its been years since I've been in school) That would account for the simularities and differences between M/I/M/T and humans. Maybe Nacedo is actually the bio-engineered being who was created as caretaker and protector of M/I/M/T. Maybe something when wrong with him and he became evil. Maybe all the people on M/I/M/T's home planet are the same as they are. Not like Nacedo. Maybe Pierce is one of the other aliens that are attacking M/I/M/T's home planet and he was sent here to find and destroy M/I/M/T. What do you all think? One final thought - I don't think Tess is evil. I think she is a product of her upbring with Nacedo. She has never bonded with anyone. No parent, siblings, friends. All she knows is what Nacedo has told her all her life. She has a lot to learn. She, like Michael, has spent her entire life longing for and dreaming about some sort of conection with someone, in this case Max, because that is who Nacedo has told her she belongs with. But at lease Michael has had Max and Isabelle. tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-05-2000 07:54 PM RemyS: (server not responding?) If we take Nasedo at his word, and that's a big if, I don't see any mystery in his actions or his attitudes. His purpose is to protect the aliens and see to it that they fulfill their intended destiny. As he tells Liz, he cares about no one or nothing else. Human life has no value to him, so human morality is inconsequential. What you call "redeeming" and "good" are value judgments from a human perspective. To Nasedo, humans are a untrustworthy and dangerous. And he's right. We are much more likely to harm rather than help him. Nasedo complicates the irony at the heart of Roswell, which in many ways is highly subversive. From the begining, we have been asked to identify with the aliens and with those few exceptional humans who've chosen to do the same. Their enemy is us. Our culture, our values, and our institutions are the villains, and the alien interlopers are the heroes. By identifying with them and accepting their need to stay hidden, we are in a sense indicting ourselves. Nasedo offers a contrast. He represents the more typical image of the alien -- the superior being who comes to earth to achieve self-aggrandizing ends while remaining callously indifferent to the consequences for us. He is the "monster" from Maria's nightmares that Max alludes to and Liz fears in "4 Square." Or is he? Are the aliens worth protecting, and who is to decide how valuable they are to earth? What is this destiny of theirs? Is it beneficial to earth, benign, or dangerous? They don't even know. We only know them, not why they're here. We trust them because up until now they have mostly shared the values we profess. But if we don't live up to them, why should we expect them to? Maybe Pierce knows something we and they don't; maybe he is the hero who's trying to save Earth, the role the alien hunter so often fulfills in our mythology. One of the interesting things about MttM was that it provided a real test for our aliens. Tess assumed that they would sacrifice Liz for their safety and their unrevealed cause. She was wrong. My take on the scene in the jeep was that Michael and Isabel agreed with Max that Liz meant more to them than the stranger Tess, perhaps to their surprise. Equally interesting was the quandry Valenti finds himself in. He's already undergone one sea change, going from arch enemy to protector of our gang of six (and from villain to hero for us). But at least for the moment, he's back in the same position we have all really been in from the beginning. He doesn't know who the enemy is, who he can trust, or what exactly is going on. The SS represents the dilemma. Until she kissed him, not even Liz knew he was false. He is never what he appears to be, and his presence calls into question all appearances. From the beginning, Roswell has manipulated us by slowly undermining value systems. It seduced us into embracing these wonderful characters and diverted us from asking some basic questions. At first, it was so subtle that we barely noticed. We just accepted the premise that our culture would not accept the aliens and that they were worthy of protection from it. Suddenly all the bedrock is falling from beneath us, and the ironies and complexities of the overall situation have left us free falling into uncertainty. It's been suggested that Roswell's future is itself uncertain because someone high up at the WB doesn't like the show. I've thought for a while that Roswell's underlying socio-political implications could account for this if it's true. Network execs notice things like this even if we don't. It makes them uncomfortable. What Roswell is doing is not new. From "The Day the Earth Stood Still" to "ET," we've seen aliens used as mirrors to expose the hypocrisy and selfishness of our culture. But in Roswell things are a little different. Liz told Alex that "there's a right side and a wrong side." It may not turn out to be so simple. Alienwatcher Member Posts: 26    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-05-2000 08:30 PM Nacedo definately has human emotions - he's a sociopath without a conscience. I've been thinking and I have some idea's that I'm just going to throw out and see what everyone thinks. I think if Roswell returns next season we will find out that Agent Pierce is an alien. Think about it. Why else would Nacedo be afraid of him? We know how easy it is for Nacedo to kill a human. All he need do is identify Pierce and kill him. I don't think that would make him afraid of Pierce. There has to be something more. I see this show taking on a plot/storyline similar to the show Earth Final Conflict. Maybe Max, Is, Michael and Tess's home planet is being attacked by another planet. Or maybe another race on their planet. Maybe M/I/M/T were hidden here on earth to protect them until they're grown. Maybe they are the key to the success of their home planet. And/or maybe their people found out that earth would be attacked next and they came here to hopefully join forces with humans to defeat their enemies. Maybe when they got here the realized that humans were to primitive or to unfriendly (i.e. the goverment agent who took them into custody) Maybe M/I/M/T's people are a different species but in the same genus as humans (Is that the right biology term? it's been a long time since I was in school) That would explain the similarities and differences with humans. Maybe everyone on their home planet are the same as them. Maybe Nacedo is the bio-engineered being created to be their caretaker and protector. (sort of Arnie in Terminator 2) Maybe something happened to Nacedo and he became evil. Maybe Pierce was sent here to find M/I/M/T and destroy them. The FBI is just a great cover for him. Well?? RemyS     Posts:149    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-06-2000 01:19 AM ***tepp, I again humbly bow to your thought provoking commentary. What an intelligent, deductive mind you have. I am in awe. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-06-2000 06:53 AM LENEBA: I agree with your caution. Until it is made clear in the storyline, I prefer to refer to Mr. Harding as "the shapeshifter" not "Nesedo". I'm simply not sure that the two are identical--they may well be--but I don't think that it is certain as yet. REMYS. Bless you. Sorry for all the computer problems. Think of the brighter side--a few more times like that and your stars will be multiplying like bunnies. TEPP. Your post brings up an important aspect of Science Fiction that many people neither know or appreciate. That "good" SF, that is, SF at its very best (in my opinion) functions as social critique. As you mentioned, by our identification with Max, Isabel, and Michael, we are invited to critique the society that threatens them--our own society. But with the advent of the Shapeshifter on the narrative scene, like Liz, we get frightened. The shapeshifter is not our comfty cute Max. And we have to face the reality that maybe our society--at times--is right to fear the alien (not all are cute ET's--some are like S. Weaver's "Alien"). But then the horrid Pierce makes us come full circle with realizing the "alien" can be us--when we step over the bounds of what consitutes appropriate human action. This is great stuff--as you know I teach a course entitled "Science Fiction as Moral Discourse" to university seniors--and I can tell you that the genre of SF is full of instances where we the viewing/reading audience are invited to contemplate our own society and actions by looking at aliens/spacecraft/other planets. I was listening to a famous SF writer read some unpublished stuff one evening, and someone in the audience asked her if she thought the USA would be back on the moon by the year 2000. I will never forget her reply. She said she didn't know, and she really didn't care. SF, for her, was a way of inviting her readers to consider their own societies and lives. Tepp, you are quite right in pointing out that the subtext to Roswell is quite subversive--though as you note, this recent storyline is playing with the object of that subversion by giving us "bad" aliens--or is the SS really bad? (See what I mean?). This is why I like Roswell so much: romance, good TV viewing, and thought provoking social comment and critique as well (though admittedly not as blatant as that found in the Star Trek universe)! For me, it doesn't come much better than this. I hope someone from the WB is reading these threads! LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-06-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-06-2000).] Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-06-2000 07:23 AM I love this thread. Thanks for all those insights, friends. I have just a few small observations: 1. Interesting that the location of Venus becomes important to the story shortly before yesterday's rare conjunction of the planets. 2. About Harding and whether he can teleport: in Four Square (the carousel scene) Max says "... Itís a shape-shifter. Who knows what other powers it has that we donít have." 3. Why did H. go to the cave just then? Whether or not he can remotely sense things in general, maybe he can detect when Tess is in distress (as when Max began interrogating her forcibly, at the end of the last episode) or when someone gets close to the cave. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 05-06-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-06-2000 09:59 AM Nemo wrote: "Why did H. go to the cave just then? Whether or not he can remotely sense things in general, maybe he can detect when Tess is in distress (as when Max began interrogating her forcibly, at the end of the last episode) or when someone gets close to the cave." In keeping with your last suggestion--perhaps there is some warning activated when the cave is opened? When Max waved his hand and activated the glowing handprint perhaps that alerted the SS to the fact that someone was entering the cave? Which brings us to another issue I don't think we've raised. We've seen the handprint as the aftermath of both healing and killing--but lately we've see the handprint also function as a "key" to recovering books in walls and unlocking entrances to caves. Apparently it necessitates an alien to activate the print (like the symbol in Into the Woods). I would suppose, therefore, it also takes an alien to "use" the print once it is activated. I wonder how many other prints are in Roswell just waiting for a wave of an alien hand? LSS LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-06-2000 01:53 PM Alienwatcher: I read back over your post, but it is difficult to answer because I am "spoiled". Let's just say--some of what you suggest is right on target--while other things are way off the mark. Now--you just have to figure out which is which!!! LSS nermal     Posts:81    Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-06-2000 03:05 PM LSS, what you said about the glowing handprint being used as a key... What about that handprint on Liz's stomach? What is that about? A symbolic opening of Liz's sexuality or perhaps fertility? Or perhaps an opening of some potential that laid dormant deep inside of Liz? After all, it's just waiting for some alien to come along and activate it. Maybe Liz is just more sensitive to aliens now and that's why she got a vision when she kissed Nasedo/Max. This thread rocks. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-06-2000 04:21 PM Nermal: You know--what you said made me think. What if that handprint on Liz's midsection is still there? I think most of us had assumed that it had been absorbed into her body (thus hastening the suggested "change"). But what you are suggesting is that it might be still there. Hmm-- On the other hand--what if the significance of the prints differ? What if some are simply residual (i.e., after healing, killing, etc.) while others are functional (i.e., locating books in walls, opening cave entrances, etc.). Then the question might be which kind is the print on Liz? It would be helpful if we knew how long those prints on dead bodies remained visible. Did they disappear or were they there when the bodies were buried? If the latter then maybe the fact that the one on Liz disappeared means that it is "still there" but just hidden (like the print on the rock). On the other hand, it simply might mean that prints on live organism are absorbed while prints on dead bodies remain. Nermal--you brought up a very interesting angle--do you think activating the print (if it is still there) might be significant? LSS virgogurl     Posts:1018    Registered: Nov 1999 posted 05-06-2000 05:19 PM You guys and gals NEVER cease to amaze me. Up until now, i hadnt even thought of the fact that maybe liz had "changed". Now, you guys have given me more reasons than enough to respect liz. I never really looked deep enough into her character, and i never realized all she has done for everyone. its just so amazing. i have a newfound respect for her, that i dont think i will lose, and its all becuz of u guys. tepp: your posts are amazing. they are so thought provoking, and awe-inspiring, that i am sitting here with my mouth WIDE OPEN, and i am thinking and thinking and thinking of all the things that you have said. And i dont think i can form one coherent theory on this, becuz there isnt anything better. i think you described this whole situation beautifully, and i agree with you 150%. Now, more than ever, i am really wondering about the whole soulmate thing. This thread has got my mind going in circles, and i am loving it. I am so glad that i can come to a message board, and have intelligent discussions with you guys. It means so much. ANd thanks to you guys, i have a whole new outlook on a character i never really liked, an couple that i thought was kinda annoying (max and liz) and a new outlook on this show. Thank you all, so very much. Now you have made me loving max and liz, LIZ herself, and now, i am really thinking of all the things that roswell teaches us, and has to offer. Its beyond amazing. tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-06-2000 06:06 PM LSS: Didn't Valenti say to Liz that the handprint on Atherton's corpse "also" disappeared after a few days? Seems like Hubble said something similar, that he had managed to get to the corpses he photographed in time to capture the hand print. (Somewhere in your vitae, I missed the part about teaching the science fiction class. Now I'll really have to watch what I say. Oh yeah, recall the "origin" of Sigourney's "alien?") Nermal: I said something like this before somewhere, but I love it so much I'll say it again. If you just look at the imagery of the healing scene in the pilot, it is very sexually suggestive. Max begins by ripping open Liz's blouse, exposing her bra (something that under normal circumstances would have terribly embarassed a teenage girl). As you note, his point of contact is right about where her womb would be (isn't it?). When he "connects" with her -- leaving aside the images he gets of her as a child -- the camera alternates between close ups of their faces, and their expressions . . . well you get the picture. After Max runs out, Liz is left standing, clutching the ripped halves of her uniform to her breast, looking to me more like the ravished heroine of a grocery-store romance than a shooting victim. As soon as she's alone in her room, she "pops" her finger through the bullet hole in the uniform, as if to confirm to herself that she had actually been shot, but also reenacting the symbolic deflowering that has just taken place. Then she sees the handprint which marks her, material evidence not only of her having been miraculously healed but of Max's having "connected" with her. As I recall, she stares in the mirror at the handprint and also at her own face, as if to the ask the sterotypical question, "do I look different?" Yes, this is a bit of a stretch, and it relies on my subjective response to things like Liz's expression as Max runs to the Jeep (what a great, great shot), but as you suggest this event does coincide with a sexual awakening in Liz, and it is the first of many spiritual "couplings" between her and Max. It is also the moment of her own rebirth ("five days ago I died"). You could even go so far as to say that by bringing Max "out of his shell" (on the way to Marathon he says, "my life didn't start until I told you the truth") that it is a kind of rebirth for Max as well. Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-06-2000 06:12 PM I don't want to interrupt the larger discussion too much, but here are a few more small observations: 1) Prior locations of the Hardings. Kate Ancel's review (in the Episodes section) points out that, although the sheriff traces Edward Harding to Alabama, Tess's former school records say Chicago. Maybe this is a clue that at least one of the Hardings is really into telecommuting, or able to falsify records, or both. This makes me wonder again about that book with metal pages, that Tess would like the others to regard as iron necessity. Its cover showed the kind of discoloration produced on certain metals by fierce heat. As if it's saying (in a double sense) I've been forged. 2. Signs at the gas station. While Harding/Max was making clues (handprint and fire), the camera repeatedly showed Liz in the passenger's seat with her face partly covered by the reflection (in the windshield, upside-down) of a sign that said GUMOUT. This is a brand name (from the same company as other prominent brand names in the scene) of a fuel additive for clearing away sticky residues out of carburetors. Is that how Harding views Liz? Something to be cleared away because it's clogging the works? The posters above have convinced me that Harding expected Liz not to return from that trip in the car ("how long do you want to be gone")? Maybe that's why he spoke so unguardedly to her. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-06-2000 07:18 PM TEPP: Did they say that about the prints? Too bad we can't see if a wave of an alien hand would activate anything on the bodies. Gosh, getting kind of morbid aren't we? As for your healing/sexual interpretation, actually I don't think that it is a "stretch" at all! Another point in favor of your argument is found in Missing. In the UFO Museum scene, after Liz has "found" the missing journal, she tries to explain why she "wrote it all down" to Max. Her explanation--"so if someone ever touches me the way you did, I'll know what is supposed to feel like"--echoes the sexual theme you are talking about. This future "touch" -- this intimate connection to which she refers -- I take to allude to sexual intercourse. BTW--sorry, I thought I'd mentioned the course to you off board. As for watching your step, don't be silly...you should know me better than that by now. NEMO--you are a marvel. I would never catch all the background details that you note. Well done. LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-06-2000).] virgogurl     Posts:1018    Registered: Nov 1999 posted 05-06-2000 07:27 PM I dont think the whole sexual awakening thing of the pilot is a stretch at all!! This thread has got me thinking, and now, every max and liz moment to me is like, sexual. its actually kinda funny. I mean like, i am looking at each scene in a whole new way. i love this whole new outlook that you guys have given me. Nemo: wow, i cant believe you caught that!! That is fantastic!! GraceKel     Posts:462    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-06-2000 09:30 PM Nemo good catch=I knew there was some significance because they kept panning back to it but I couldn't read the word. Thanks and your interpretation is a sound one to me.Was it already discussed about TLV the kiss outside the crashdown the words shoe service were blocked so you could only see HOE VICE-seems significant as well. hmmmm! I don't know if this has been brought up b4 but maybe Liz really was suppose to be the 4th alien but something went wrong she was either early or late and her alien essence never took hold so she came out completely human. Max managed to find her anyway-and maybe someone who was trying to prevent this destiny from happening sent in the hit man to shoot her but then Max saves her...I don't know I am probably rambling here! her....someone w tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-06-2000 10:51 PM LSS: You know the scene when Max asks if he can read Liz's journal is one of my very favorites, and I think in an earlier post I quoted the same line you cite above, but I hadn't considered its sexual implication. Like Elliott says, I was probably off in some soulmate dreamland. Good call. But no doubt Roswell is saturated with sex. It's got that whole sex-birth-death-rebirth thing happening. And as you know, I'm ready for some of the real thing. I think that Max and Liz need to get "connected" in a way everybody can understand (hear that, writers?). As Elliott and others have suggested, that would really raise the stakes on every decision they confront. It would tie them together in a very literal and material. At this point, I think it's the logical step. And it would just be cool as Hell. Nemo: Valenti discovers that "Ed Harding" was in Alabama, but we don't know if the SS and Tess were ever there. Like the psychiatrist in Maryland, Harding is (or was) probably a "real" person. I doubt the SS has retained any identity for long and has apparently been lurking near Roswell for months at least. More likely, he only assumed Harding's identity about the time he moved to Roswell so he could gain access to the military bases around there. I noticed that reflection (which was quite noticeable) but couldn't make out what it said. That's an interesting take on it. [This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-06-2000).] tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-06-2000 11:13 PM Nemo: I was thinking about the last part of your last post. It is interesting to me that the SS not only talks "unguardedly" to Liz but takes for granted how much she already knows about him. When he takes the cell phone from her and hears the real Max's voice, he just says, "now you know." Later when he makes his slimy digusting comment about doubting she would be so friendly to Ed Harding, she exclaims, "that was you?" Remember that Max hasn't told her anything about the cave or who or what Tess apparently is (Max finds out Liz is missing when he gets worried that Maria has told her about Tess's pod-mates claim). Nevertheless, the SS obviously assumes Liz knows "what" he is even if she doesn't know "who" he's been. I think this is one more reason to suspect that the SS sees Liz as more than a mere star-struck annoyance. BehrAll     Posts:253    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-07-2000 12:11 AM Just a minor point -- I would much prefer to read the "larger discussion", as someone put it, than risk interrupting a fantastic (in many senses! ) thread. Anyway, about the handprint on Liz as "functional": could this be related in any way to her hickey from SH? If I remember correctly, it glows eerily -- albeit golden instead of silver, perhaps a consequence of her own hybridizing/ized status? -- and when Max touches it with his hand, it "activates" a key vision for (or, within) Liz. Also, supporting the sexually intimate and symbolic nature of their relationship, both are in a state of sexual arousal (ie, having just admitted/shared mutual fantasies). Moreover, re the effect of the handprints on organic vs inorganic matter, her hickey rapidly -- I can't think of the word -- anyway, it changes in form, almost decaying, once it's "purpose" is fulfilled. Could this be significant? Liz suggests that it did this when she was apart from Max; could proximity (or more precisely, distance) have played a role in helping her handprint "disappear"? She didn't see it when it did; perhaps it left a bruise too. I wonder, tho, did Max touch the hickey with the same hand that he healed her with? Might be an interesting "coincidence". LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 07:11 AM BehrAll wrote: "when Max touches it with his hand, it "activates" a key vision for (or, within) Liz." Interesting point. Although we have object induced visions, dream visions, and visions when Max looks at Tess, the only visions that involve simply touching are either when the individuals either "connect" or kiss. But since the hickey was glowing it does remind you of the glowing handprint. Interesting. It also makes me want to revisit my former comments on the glowing "scan" that Max gives Liz's arm in SH. "Moreover, the effect of the handprints on organic vs inorganic matter, her hickey rapidly -- I can't think of the word -- anyway, it changes in form, almost decaying, once it's "purpose" is fulfilled. Could this be significant? Liz suggests that it did this when she was apart from Max; could proximity (or more precisely, distance)have played a role in helping her handprint "disappear"? She didn't see it when it did; perhaps it left a bruise too." Again, Interesting point about proximity. I don't think it left a bruise because Valenti asked to see her midsection and I think would have been suspicious if there had been any mark on it. "I wonder, tho, did Max touch the hickey with the same hand that he healed her with? Might be an interesting "coincidence". Believe it or not, the one episode I have not seen is the Pilot (though it is very similar to the book, and I have read transcripts and watched the slide show, etc.). I CAN tell you that it is not the same hand that he heals Michael with. He touches the hickey with his left hand and heals Michael with his right. LSS Alienwatcher Member Posts: 26    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-07-2000 07:46 AM Sorry for the multiple post earlier - I had trouble posting. Re: Liz's hickey - perhaps Max just healed the scab left by the hickey just as he healed Michael's black eye. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 07:53 AM Alienwatcher You may be right. But one touch instantly produced a vision while the other did not. And in no other prior healing are we left with a rash/scab. Of course we are assuming that the hickey/rash are related. Maybe they are not. You know, I don't think we see whether or not the hickey vanishes do we? I think she just turns around and says something like "this is getting weird Max". LSS shikastaDuNuit     Posts:2    Registered: May 2000 posted 05-07-2000 08:49 AM Ok this is on the cloning issue or engineered as Michael put it!! If they were cloned then their parents would be the person or alien in which the DNA came from hence they are really hybrids as the DNA of the original M/Mi/I/T and DNA of a human (whether it was the same human or not we don't know if it is then they are all sibliings in a sense). OK now if the original pod squad were paired off etc then of course this explains why they were cloned purely from an emotional point of view being love etc. However, I do not believe that by cloning you can also clone the emotions and I firmly believe that a clone although a replica of someone else will be an individual after all the original pod squad grew up on their home planet and the clones grew up on earth, they're senses, emotions etc have evolved differently and the fact that M/Mi and I have grown up thinking they were brothers and sister sort of puts a damper on the pairing issue. The aliens whole lifespan has not been determined and they are going on really old information. They have to realize their own individuality and discover their own destinies they fate has not been predetermined and who knows if the bad guy aliens are even around anymore for all we know the dreaded cold virus could have wiped them out long before the pod squad came forth from the pods. Ok I have seriously gone all over the place and I aplogise, feel free to disagree or agree or just tell me I am speaking absolute crap. I hope it makes sense and that I haven't spoilt any future eps for anyone it is a hard topic to discuss if people are behind without letting the cat out of the bag. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 10:02 AM Welcome to the SF thread (I think this was only your second post--so welcome to the board as well!) In my SF Review of M2TM (which I turned in last week--but since Darien/squanto is in exams right now it might be the beginning of next week before it is up on the episode page) I survey SF character types other than the simple "Alien". Like you, I concluded that what we have are hybrids here--with an important twist. Often hybrids in SF are the natural result of interspecies mating (which in the world of SF of course is possible). In Roswell, however, it looks like we might have bio-engineered hybrids, which interjects an element of artificiality in their creation that is not present in the other method--making this type of hybrid more "other" than even its hybrid status would normally evoke! Poor Max. This also means that ultimately, he is neither fully of either world--human or alien--which allows the writers, BTW, to address all sorts of multicultural human issues in the storyline. Of course, the question that begs to be asked is: Did his alien creators really factor in what using a human template (with human DNA?) might have on who he would become? Somehow, I don't think so--anymore than the SS could understand why Max would follow Liz to the carnival. This is going to be an interesting plotline to pursue next Fall. LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-07-2000).] tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-07-2000 11:49 AM LSS: You haven't seen the pilot??!! You are truly deprived. I haven't gone back and watched SH (I've seen it about 20 times already), but if I'm not mistaken the "hickey" that Liz and Max see in the shower is distinguished from the "rash" (the scabby looking thing she shows him in the apartment). Granted, it's not entirely clear, but Maria also refers to them as two different things in the car. I don't know what happens to the hickey (I assume it disappeared after her vision in the locker room), but Liz says of the rash after Max has removed it, You know, the...the mark went away because...because you touched it. Maybe...maybe it came because we were away for...too long. I don't think she is suggesting that the hickey decayed into the "mark" while they were apart but that the mark (the "rash") may have appeared because they were separated. In other words, the rash -- which had nothing to do with the hickey -- was a symptom of separation and a sign that she should return to him. Of course, part of what she is doing is trying to rationalize what she came there to do -- have sexual intercourse with Max. Since you haven't seen the pilot, let me reiterate that it's made very clear that the handprint on Atherton's body simply fades with time as Liz's mark does. The suggestion is that this happens automatically and has nothing to do with proximity or distance from the one who made the mark. Whether the mark leaves some residual trace is open to question. I would also point out that the handprints we see on the library wall and the mountainside look different from the "organic" ones. The "key" prints are fully detailed hands while the healing mark(and killing mark on Atherton)are not, but only indicate the points of greatest pressure, energy transfer, etc. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 12:03 PM Tepp wrote: "Since you haven't seen the pilot, let me reiterate that it's made very clear that the handprint on Atherton's body simply fades with time as Liz's mark does. The suggestion is that this happens automatically and has nothing to do with proximity or distance from the one who made the mark. Whether the mark leaves some residual trace is open to question. I would also point out that the handprints we see on the library wall and the mountainside look different from the "organic" ones. The "key" prints are fully detailed hands while the healing mark(and killing mark on Atherton)are not, but only indicate the points of greatest pressure, energy transfer, etc." You know someone else (can't remember who) mentioned that the prints looked different, If that is the case then we have a physical difference that might be an indentifier. Functional prints are those which are fully detailed while merely residual ones are simply outlined. If this is the case, then the residual ones may simply be absorbed or disappear and are not able to be "activated". BTW--Thanks for the help on the Pilot episode. They are supposed to show it this summer and I hope to catch it then. I really didn't become a "fan" until Blood Brother and had to catch the others on reruns. Yes, I know--thinking back how could I be so stupid? Sigh--my life is now divided into BR (before Roswell) and R (Roswell). What can I say? I'm hooked! But as I said before, there are far worse vices than this show! LSS P.S. I happen to agree with you about the hickey and the rash being different. Kath7     Posts:116    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 12:45 PM Just wanted to comment that if anyone ever asks you why you are obsessed with a "stupid" television show - send them to this thread. I posted on it early in the week and have just spent the last hour sitting in awe over the intelligence that spills forth here every week. Thank you all for providing even more food for thought about Roswell (as though I needed any!) MEP     Posts:55    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-07-2000 01:47 PM About the glowing: did anyone else notice that Isabel was glowing too in her first dream, when she was kissing Alex? It wasn't quite the same type of glow - it went all over and appeared to be self-induced, while Liz only glowed where Max ran his hand over her skin (or where he gave her a hickey), but is it possible that there's a correlation? However, Isabel did not glow with Michael. Maybe it's a human/alien sexual thing? But in both cases, the glowing was determined by gender, not species... I have no idea what this means. Probably nothing. lise5094     Posts:4    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-07-2000 03:13 PM tepp said; quote: ...the handprints we see on the library wall and the mountainside look different from the "organic" ones. The "key" prints are fully detailed hands while the healing mark(and killing mark on Atherton)are not, but only indicate the points of greatest pressure, energy transfer, etc. [/B] However, the handprint on the FBI agent whom Nasedo/Hardng killed looked like the handprint on the wall of the cave and the gas tanks, rather than like the one on Atherton's dead body. I suspect this reflects a continuity problem with props rather than a significant point. If it IS significant, it would imply that our current Nasedo did not kill Atherton; someone more like Max did. I've engoyed the SF threads greatly, both here and at the spoiler board. My thanks to LSS, tepp, leneba, rostafehrian, elliott, nemo, et al for providing such thoughtful commentary. LSS: if your reviews can't get posted on the episode page for a while, why don't you post them here? Lise tal     Posts:141    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 04:00 PM How funny Kath7. When my spouse chided me on my fascination with Roswell and Crashdown, I made him sit down and read some of the SF threads. He was quite impressed. LSS - Has there been any discussion of gender roles/issues on the SF threads ? Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-07-2000 05:23 PM GraceKel, about the shoe-repair service sign and other background signs in TLV, there was a brief discussion of that on the SF-of-TLV thread: http://www.fanforum.com/forums//Forum3/HTML/008073-3.html I will try to bump that one up if I can find anything to add to it. (Often it takes me days or weeks to find these things, and by then the discussion has moved on.) LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 06:13 PM Tal: Back on the old SF of SH thread there was a discussion of the gender of Nesedo: 1) whether Nesedo was a he, she, or it 2) of whether Nesedo's gender changed as it changed host forms 3) of whether Nesedo could morph from male to female There was also a discussion of interspecies mating (how it might be done, whether or not it was possible, and whether the mating would be viable--i.e. produce viable offspring). I think that these were the two areas concerning gender on which the conversation focused. I do not think that we have ever done a gender analysis of the various characters (i.e the characterization of Liz, Max, etc). Quite frankly this latter kind of analysis is a bit off thread for the SF focus here. FYI SF Posters-- I am still working on getting the SF threads archived. I will bring it up again with Darien after he finishes exams. It has to be done manually, he said, so apparently it takes some time (I'm just relating what he told me here). I do know that he has been super busy with the end of semester. This summer--during the long hiatus--I am working on a project for the board so that some of you who joined late in the SF of {episode) discussion can get "caught up". It will be called "The Best of the SF threads: [topic]". I will pull from the threads topic-specific material. That way new posters can enjoy material they have missed, and old posters can be reminded of their former (as well as current) brilliance!!! Hope this will be of service so that we can continue our conversation as we await the new Fall season. LSS tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-07-2000 07:17 PM Ilse5094: I agree on both points. Unlike Atherton and the other corpses in the photos -- who appeared to have only a superficial mark like the one Liz had -- the FBI agent seemed to have a gigantic hole in his chest, and it wasn't even clear what surface the handprint was imprinted on. LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 07:28 PM lise If what you and tepp say is correct then either: 1) the SS is not Nesedo, or 2) the SS used more force on the agent in M2TM than he did on A. 3) the prop folk thought it would be interesting to change prints! The problem with #1 above, of ourse, is that the print on Hubble's wife was the outline type and Liz saw Hubble's wife in the vision she had while kissing the SS. If the SS killed Hubble's wife but left only the outline then why when he kills in M2TM is the print different? Again we are left with either: 1) he killed him in a different way from Hubble's wife (more force, etc.) or 2) the prop folk screwed up. Anyone else have any other logical options? LSS 42 Member Posts: 25    Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-07-2000 07:45 PM This is not a SF topic per se, but rather a comment on a plot contrivance that Roswell has in common with other SF (notably X-Files): Imagine you know there is an evil shape-shifter lurking about who might take on the appearance of one of your friends at any time. Wouldn't you arrange codes or signals with your friends so that you could "authenticate" each other each time you met? OK, in "Max to the Max" this is the first time it has happened, so it can be excused. But if they allow it to happen again and again, they are just dumb. In X-Files it has gotten ridiculous. Mulder or Scully have been fooled by: an intentionally shape-shifting alien bounty hunter, an unintentional body-soul switch between Mulder and someone nearby, hallucinations of each other brought about by someone exerting mind control on them, and I don't remember how many others. And not only haven't they set up any authentication method to deal with the "next time", but they never even seem to remember that this has happened before. OK, sorry to spend a whole paragraph on another TV show. But in "Max to the Max" my thought was "here we go again". I don't believe the intelligent kids we met in the early episodes would let themselves be fooled...of course, given the popularity of "Evil Max", the screenwriters may choose popular demand over common sense and bring him back...but I hope they give a solid plot-related reason for why our heroes are fooled. tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-07-2000 08:11 PM LSS: I'm voting for dramatic overkill at the expense of continuity. It's fairly evident that the SS who doubles Mr. Harding and Max is the same one who's been killing everybody. Not only Liz's vision of Atherton's wife (which I too always assumed is who that was), but his own admission to Tess in the cave would seem to prove it. Though I hadn't thought of it before, this would also seem to verify him as Nasedo, the person River Dog saw kill Atherton. By the way, Max (and maybe Michael or Isabel as well) has used the name "Nasedo" to refer to the SS when speaking to Tess, and she obviously assumes he means the SS who rasied her. In answering Max's questions about the SS, she uses the pronoun "he," and I'm pretty sure its antecedent is "Nasedo" (in other words, Max asks something about Nasedo, and she replies that "he" did something). The transcript is not yet available, so I'll have to go back and check to be sure when and how many times this happens, but I know it does. ---- I checked the tape. Max says to Tess, "we knew there was someone out there, but we thought it was Nasedo . . . so you do know him then?" And Tess replies, "he was there when I came out of the pod." I don't ever recall her showing any confusion about this name. She's always known who it referred to. At this point, I'd have to say that this SS IS the one River Dog knew as Nasedo and likely the only other alien presently in the picture. [This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-07-2000).] Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-07-2000 08:50 PM About the differences between the recent and older handprints: the earliest victim photograph I can remember was of an unclothed body at autopsy, wasn't it? And the photo was black-and-white. Whereas the latest incident we see in color, and the victim is seen still wearing a dark suit coat that now has a hole burned through it. Could these differences of viewing conditions account for much of the difference in appearance? [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 05-08-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-07-2000 08:51 PM Tepp: Okay--though I've been hesitant to equate the two, your reference to the dialogue is a convincing point. But there is one other issue. In M2TM, when they ask Tess what Nesedo/SS is up to she says she doesn't know--and then either then or later says something to the effect that he's never left her alone like this before. BUT if the SS/Harding never leaves her alone--then how do you explain his presence in BD/ID/SH? Was Tess lying or did she just forget? Maybe Nesedo = Harding...But does this being = the same one we saw in those earlier episodes? The picture that was burned at the end of SH does evoke that box at Hharding's, though, doesn't it? Do you think we are dealing with only one SS here? LSS tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-07-2000 09:40 PM LSS: I edited my post above (I couldn't yet see yours though it was evidently "here") to indicate I had verified the dialogue. Tess does accept and implicitly use "Nasedo" as the name of her guardian without question or comment. As I said in an earlier post, I think it likely that the SS (whom I'm about to go back to calling Nasedo) has been nearby all the time -- probably in a neighboring town. I see no reason to believe he's spent any more time in Alabama or Chicago than he had in Maryland (if he's ever been there at all). His ability to perfectly mimic those whose forms he assumes is frankly a little stretched for me. It has the earmarks of being one of those things which is possible simply because the script says it is. It could be that he must have contact with someone before being able to imitate them and that only a brief encounter will imbue him with their knowledge, personality, etc. (how else can he do it so perfectly?). Of course, that would raise a number of interesting questions about what he learned from Max -- especially about Liz (ahem). It's easy to see how he might have imitated Hank. Likely he was keeping an eye on Michael, and when he interceded and killed Hank he got his needed contact. I'm not going to check this now, but he certainly could have touched Max when Max came to get Liz out of Harding's house. However, he also managed to identify and mimic two key people who were nowhere near Roswell. He perfectly copied the Maryland psychiatrist, and he found an identity which would both give him and Tess a cover in Roswell as well as a provide him access to military facilities and information -- Ed Harding. The perfect timing of this last identity strongly suggests to me that he has NOT been Harding for any length of time. It's virtually impossible that he could have known years in advance that Harding would be transferred to Roswell at precisely the right time. More likely, he was on the lookout for someone who fit his needs, and Harding presented the perfect candidate. Of course, Tess's being unable to shape shift would make it more difficult for Nasedo to work her into his various personas -- but not impossible. For example, when Ed Harding appeared in Roswell, no doubt he was expected by people who knew or had met him. Tess's situation as a student would be different. Harding's "bio" might list him as having a daughter, but the people he's to work with in Roswell would likely be unable to identify her, and the school records probably wouldn't contain any pictures or could be easily faked if they did. Nevertheless, Nasedo's amazing ability to imitate Harding and the psychiatrist is much more easily explained than his knowledge of WHOM to imitate. Whatever else he is or isn't, Nasedo has been portrayed as an incredibly resourceful and intelligent being -- perhaps too much so for me. However, I have a feeling that the many questions all this raises will be ignored, and we will just move on from here. ------- Of course none of the above argument can account for all that weird business with the statues and artifacts. Come to think of it, just what was that all about? [This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-07-2000).] LSS     Posts:800    Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-08-2000 06:06 AM Tepp: I agree that we may have to table the How and Who questions about the SS/Nesedo until we get some more info. Just how close he/it has been to Max & co. is still not clear to me. Before the sign in Into the Woods, he seems to just be traveling about (this we get from Hubble's "trail" of bodies). Then, perhaps because of the coming stellar event, he comes back to Roswell (Into the Woods). But only privately--his public appearance has to wait until Crazy. But you know--if Harding is still alive, this is a very foolish move. (NOTE: When he duplicates the doctor he is found out because someone eventually contacted the "real" doctor). When he does come to Roswell, it is a very high profile, permanent thing--renting or buying a very nice house--almost as if he is prepared to stay for a while (or at least look like he is). All of this strains our credibility when we have to imagine taking a child with him all this time. Moreover the secrecy he adopts towards the Pod Squad is also perplexing. If he fears for their safety if he contacts them, then why in the world does he make his public return? Maybe this is just one more area in which we are asked to "suspend our disbelief". As for the artifacts, in the SF to TLV thread, at least three theories for the significance of the artifacts emerged: 1) That they were "tourist" items from the indigenous earth culture to the aliens; or 2) Or that aliens had been on earth for a very long time and these were "momentos" or 3) These were really something else that were disguised as artifacts. There might have been other theories but these are the ones that I remember. LSS Nemo     Posts:254    Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-08-2000 12:30 PM After GraceKel's question I'm wondering if there's a further significance to the shoe-repair-service sign. Last week I thought it was just a way of getting the letters VICE into the scene with Tess tempting Max. But maybe there's more to it, because now it has been revisited, with some emphasis on the outlined shoe or boot, and echoed by the sign at the beginning of the gas-station scene "Call [phone#] for service." Is this a hint that some group is downtrodden or reduced to servitude, or that Harding wants to stomp on someone? tepp     Posts:102    Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-08-2000 04:47 PM LSS: Oh I doubt very much that Mr. Harding is still alive. As you say, this is a much more permanent manifestation, unlike the doctors' which he maintained at most for a few hours. I too have a lot of problems with the secrecy thing, and that's why I think that a lot of this stuff is ultimately meaningless. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that a lot of this stuff was just done for dramatic effect -- for example, burning the picture. One of the things I didn't mention earlier that made the SS's plan to bait Pierce so foolish was that he didn't warn Max he was going to do it. Indeed, Pierce saw Max and the picture of a doppleganger suspect in a crime miles away within second of each other. Pierce could just as easily have snatched the real Max right then, or he could have failed to rise to the bait. Of course, the SS couldn't have told Max about taking Liz -- all the more reason to believe he knew that was "wrong." But the bottom line is that the SS's "plan" was a totally unbelievable contrivance by the writers to hit all the right buttons and put everyone in the right place to get us to where we are now. Frankly, I think it's one of the lamest things I've seen yet in Roswell. Still, it was exciting, wasn't it? Copyright (c) Fan Forum 2000. All rights reserved.