Fan Forum - Roswell - The Science Fiction of Max to the Max and The White Room Roswell Views: 1127 Replies: 98 This thread was 3 pages long: 1 2 3 09-14-2000 12:31 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 Sorry to get MTTM out late but both my office and home computers have been down. Since this thread (MTTM)is coming out later than usual I am combining it with WR (actually these eppys are continuations of the same storyline--so it works exceptionally well to combine them). ***************************************** MTTM and WR constitute two parts of a four part story arc (FS/MTTM/WR/Destiny). From our post-Destiny POV, these eppys contain important "swing" elements that move us into Roswell Season 2--as well as presenting us with problems that have yet to be resolved: 1. BIOENGINEERED BEINGS. While we discover that our podsters are bioengineered in MTTM, we have yet to fully understand the implications of this fact. Indeed, this promises to be a key issue in season 2. If M/I/Mi have both human and alien components then to what degree are they "human" and "alien"? Note that this is not only a nature/nurture problem (though it does address some of the same issues). It is NOT simply that Max has been raised human (and "made" human by Liz) but also that human genetic material constitutes a part of who he is. Exactly what is alien about our podsters (aside from their cells)? And what is truly human? From where did their human genetic material come? What legal/moral/ethical obligations do they have to their parent genetic stock? And what happens if there is a conflict of interest between their human and alien roots? 2. PROGRAMMING VS. INDIVIDUAL VOLITION. In WR, Harding tells Michael he has been "programmed." What does this imply? Such terminology is more at home in the world of machines than of humans. What role does choice and volition have in our podsters' lives? Is a person's destiny dictated by the aggregate of their genetic heritage? 3. THE POWER OF DISCIPLINED THINKING. Tess calls them "gifts" while Isabel admits that they "don't use them very often." In WR we are given more information about the nature, scope and working of our podsters' powers than in any other previous episode. But what we learn only opens the door for a host of new powers in our next season. In WR we see a Michael who can manipulate his skin (at least to a limited degree) while we learn that Tess manipulates peoples' minds. To what degree does being human limit/dictate what our podsters can do? On the one hand their powers are that of advanced humans...but on the other hand being human means that they cannot shapeshift like Harding. If focus is key--then what can happen, for example, when Michael learns some discipline? 4. ON THE VALUE OF EMOTIONS. Both Pierce and Harding downgrade emotions/relationships (like friendship and love) and label them a "weakness". Actually, human history has a long record of agreeing with this. That is, as far back as Aristotle, Reason/Logic was understood as superior to the Senses/Emotions. [And at times Male/Female relationships were understood in terms of Reason/Emotion models.] Classic Star Trek's Spock wrestled with the Logic vs. Emotion dilemma while Star Trek TNG's Data equated becoming human with having emotions (remember that chip?). Max (in Destiny) will declare it was really through Liz' love that he was made human (regardless of the human genetic materials in his origin). Does being human really mean being emotional? And is this a good thing for our podsters? Can emotions be weaknesses? Will it be important for Max and Michael to lay aside their emotions/relationships in the face of their alien duties? Or are duties sterile and apt to become corrupted/abused without emotion/relationships? Well folk, what do you think? LSS 09-14-2000 03:30 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 snipped from above: LSS asked 2. PROGRAMMING VS. INDIVIDUAL VOLITION. In WR, Harding tells Michael he has been "programmed." What does this imply? Such terminology is more at home in the world of machines than of humans. What role does choice and volition have in our podsters' lives?Is a person's destiny dictated by the aggregate of their genetic heritage? Qfanny answers The issue of free will seems to be a dominate theme in the later episodes of Season One. No doubt, this will continue into Season Two. Being so, I'd like to focus my thoughts on that. Free will is a term that I first learned in Sunday School. You have free will to do good: You have free will to do bad. But it's something everyone has, and if you didn't have it, that means your a lesser lifeform (and thus no soul). I have to believe that Max, Isabel, Michael, and even Tess have free will. For lack thereof means you are more akin to a plant, fish, repetile, mamual and crystal. While they all have form and function, they are totally dominated by genetics and environment. This is not the case with the Podsters. Free will is a necessity for them. They must be able to adapt and make choices against whatever instincts they may have. Free will is something they (and everyone else reading) must develop. Sometimes to survive you must abandoned your instincts. The podster are not lemmings. They can think for themselves. When the podster give into their instincts, they often are setting themselves up to exposure. In most cases, everything did work out fine. But if it hadn't the results could have been disastorous. Roswellian examples: Pilot: Max instinctively heals (does it without thinking) Liz Parker and starts the whole Roswell storyline. River Dog: Max uses his powers to produce light to instinctively protect Liz, thus exposing his alien nature. Toy House: Max instinctively heals a pigeon and that event later threatens to expose him, Isabel and Michael. Max to the Max: Max instinctively searches for Liz, and does get into a very real life threatening situation. Destiny: Max heals Kyle, but reluctantly. Do you suppose that he may have learned something from before? Operating on instinct alone is very dangerous. And I hope that the examples above prove that. Free will allows you to chose, whether you act instinctively or rationally. Sexual Healing shows us how Max and Liz struggle to hold onto rationalism. They may instinctively want to "be together" and "it feels right", but they know that there could be very serious unforseen consequences. Liz's body is going through all sorts of changes, from glowing hickies, to rashes, and elevated temperatures. Not to mention the fact she's acting out of character. She has never been in trouble with her parents before. So when it is asked, can Max and Liz be together, the answer is yes. They can. They have the free will to do it, but whether or not they'll want to, that's the real issue isn't it? From Nebraska Qfanny Now go click that ad! Remember is not an 09-14-2000 04:44 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 LSS : If I may, I would like to address them being bioengineered. At least three things come to mind : 1. How does this affect them physically? Will they ever be able to "grow into" shapeshifting? Tess said they can't SS because they have human bodies. Has Harding been very straight forward with her? She tells Max how little she knows about Harding, and how little he has told her. Did she just assume this? Can they maybe get this ability after alien puberty sometime? Harding told Michael their powers were human (several thousand years advanced). The podsters can give silver handprints, just like the aliens. Does that mean the aliens are human too, and this is what we will evolve into? (One of those "we are from your future" plotlines where the podsters have been sent back in time to change it.) 2. How does this change them mentally? Are their minds more like humans than aliens? It would seem so with Harding being wierded out. Is their mission counting on them being different? Is this why they were brought here? 3. Do the aliens know the podsters are going to be this different, and maybe chose not to follow destiny?? 09-14-2000 04:48 PM jenlev Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 hi there, regarding the importance of emotions: apparently some of what creates emotions is biological...so it may be that because the podsters are 'hybrids' they will have emotions despite any attempt to muffle them. denying emotions never improves functioning for too long. i expect that as research continues into human functioning it will continue to show that emotions are not just a chemical reaction, and not just an experiential/environmental response..kind of like nature AND nuture rather then one or the other. their identity is going to be a tapestry of both of their heritages...human and alien... so on some level they may never truly be completely part of either world. i recommend going over to the signs and symbols thread that rostafehrian started for a really cool post on hybrids and biology! perhaps there can be biological programming or 'mandates', but that does not mean they don't have free will as qfanny pointed out. i have been taught that there is a difference between fate and destiny. destiny is when someone engages with their fuure and past in a way that allows them to respond to what happens rather then just be driven by it. fate is when they are consumed or possessed by their future and past without taking any active stance in relationship to it. i learned this from a jungian that i have worked with for many years.(sorry, i repeat myself here from another thread). also, one of the wonderful things about roswell is that the writers/producers etc. have continued to integrate the idea of limitations and boundaries into the storyline and the charactor portrayal. i think that the podsters clearly have limits, as do the shapeshifter(s), the 'evil-aliens' and the humans...and that serves to enhance the progression of the story and charactor development. jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 09-14-2000 at 04:52 PM] 09-14-2000 07:15 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny snipped from above: LSS asked 2. PROGRAMMING VS. INDIVIDUAL VOLITION. In WR, Harding tells Michael he has been "programmed." What does this imply? Such terminology is more at home in the world of machines than of humans. What role does choice and volition have in our podsters' lives?Is a person's destiny dictated by the aggregate of their genetic heritage? Qfanny answers The issue of free will seems to be a dominate theme in the later episodes of Season One. No doubt, this will continue into Season Two. Being so, I'd like to focus my thoughts on that....Operating on instinct alone is very dangerous....Free will allows you to chose, whether you act instinctively or rationally ....So when it is asked, can Max and Liz be together, the answer is yes. They can. They have the free will to do it, but whether or not they'll want to, that's the real issue isn't it? Qfanny: I do think you are right and that these eppys "set us up" for the general direction of Season 2. Combine what you have said (the Christian notion of "free will") with the notion of "rugged individualism" that is so germane to the Great American Myth and you have a wonderful argument against human programming and predestined futures (as well as choice being a basic human right)!!!! There is NO WAY that the writers have not intentionally set this up for us. And they have used a good SF element (bioengineering/programming)as the vehicle to address this age old religious and philosophical issue. But as you have noted--the real issue remains that the right to choose leaves the outcome of that choice up for grabs. Moreover, our podsters very well end up at different points as to what they choose! LSS 09-14-2000 07:35 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 Palomino: All VERY good questions you raise: quote: Originally posted by Palomino LSS : If I may, I would like to address them being bioengineered. At least three things come to mind : 1. How does this affect them physically? Will they ever be able to "grow into" shapeshifting? Tess said they can't SS because they have human bodies. Has Harding been very straight forward with her? She tells Max how little she knows about Harding, and how little he has told her. Did she just assume this? Can they maybe get this ability after alien puberty sometime? Harding told Michael their powers were human (several thousand years advanced). The podsters can give silver handprints, just like the aliens. Does that mean the aliens are human too, and this is what we will evolve into? (One of those "we are from your future" plotlines where the podsters have been sent back in time to change it.) Of course if we introduce the idea that the Hardings are less than truthful (or purposely deceptive) then we change the whole picture because a great deal of our "knowledge" of our podsters' "powers" is dependent on their testimonies. BTW--a VERY good observation concerning the glowing palm prints. IF the podsters' powers are of the advanced human type then they should NOT leave those prints like Harding (unless being in human form means that ss's are limited by the form they take [that is that Harding does what humans do not vice versa]...but then that would mean that shapeshifters couldn't ss in human form because humans theoretically cannot ss. See what I mean? You have hit on a snag in the logic of the SF framework as it has been presented to us. WELL DONE!!! Very impressive in fact!!! quote: 2. How does this change them mentally? Are their minds more like humans than aliens? It would seem so with Harding being wierded out. Is their mission counting on them being different? Is this why they were brought here? But isn't Harding oddness being presented more as a flaw in socialization/morality than as a different mental pattern? quote: 3. Do the aliens know the podsters are going to be this different, and maybe chose not to follow destiny?? Good question. It would helpful to know for sure what the original plans for/nature of those pods were. But you know, parents have "plans" for their children that frequently are thwarted. While children are not genetically "programmed" by scientists (at least not yet) they are programmed by socialization. Since even this does not always work, then the question remains--how human is this alien race psychologically? If they are like us, they should have known that the best laid plans of mice and men... LSS 09-15-2000 08:09 AM tanchel Fan       Registered: May 2000 Morning folks, I've been gone for a little while, but it's nice to come back to a good sci-fi thread.... Free will vs. Programming: (Qfanny always constructs the best mini-essays) We saw a shade of this issue earlier in the season with Independence Day. Max accused Michael of using Hank as an excuse for screwing up and not taking responsibility for his own actions. This whole programmed destiny is the same excuse in a slightly different package. Your past can often determine who you are, but you determine who you become. We saw Michael leap onto the 'we were engineered' theory pretty darn fast, as if it suddenly made everything clear to him. I'll be interested to see how Michael comes to understand that he still has difficult choices ahead of him and that his 'destiny' could bring more problems than it solves. Emotions as Weakness: I think the home planet counted on emotions as a catalyst for this destiny. Duty and obligation are prompted by emotional concerns--or at least a sense of guilt perhaps if you don't meet those obligations--and the home crowd had to be hoping that obligation would kick in. Plus Mom-o-gram certainly played an emotional trump card... Max, Michael, and Isabel have to struggle with that, but Tess isn't pushing for the others to fulfill their roles out of a sense of overwhelming concern for those at home; her loneliness and determination to have a family are her motivators right now. The only time emotion is presented as a weakness is when the feeling on display threatens that sense of duty to home. Just my rambly thoughts on a Friday morning. tanchel 09-15-2000 09:14 AM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 LSS, great discussion starter as usual. Just a few quickies (at work here): Max says in (I think) 4 square: I'm not going to let some book tell me what to do. Liz says you are who you choose to be and you're with whom you choose to be with. Max says (in the rainy window kiss scene) that he and Liz were brought together by Fate.[This would be stronger than Destiny.] Of course, these could all be misconceptions of reality on the part of our heroes. Valenti sets an example of choosing the right side over the wrong side regardless of assigned role. 09-15-2000 05:26 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 quote: Originally posted by tanchel Qfanny always constructs the best mini-essays tanchel I do not deserve such a compliment. But thanks anyway! Someday I will teach me to spell and remember that you're is you are and your is your. I should post something relating to the thread though. MttM and White Room are two episodes that I have a hard time watching. I think it is because of the level of emotion from the podsters. Warning, below are random thoughts. I have never really been satisfied with the opening of MttM. I mean, good lord, Tess is one of them! Surely, they could try to say something. Why didn't they ask Tess why she revealed herself the way she did? I think the manner in which the Tess acts proves that she's sneaky, and has her own agenda. When Tess and Nasedo are in the pod chamber, it sort affirms my belief that there is something else going on, with Tess, Harding, Pierce and the orbs. Of course, having a hugs and kisses reunion would be out of the question too. From Nebraska Qfanny! Now go click the ad! Remember is an to chat with us Sept 24th! 09-15-2000 08:42 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 This is sort of a continuation of a discussion from the last Sci Fi thread that really fits better here (are people just looking for blue threads maybe and not noticing this new one since it got a late start?) Anyway, re the dreams, Max never actually says he had dreams about Tess: quote: from the Max2theMax transcript TESS: Youíre having dreams? MAX: Sometimes. TESS: About you and me? MAX: If we were together in a dream, does that meanÖ is that how weÖ mate? 09-15-2000 08:56 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 All of the above makes me wonder if the planners of this whole scheme knew what the ramifications of mixing the two species would be. Were they counting on the alien instinct to over ride the human emotions... or were they hoping that human emotions would be an asset to the podsters? It was suggested by the Mommogram that the aliens DO have emotions (she said she loved them... and all that), and, even though Edsedo says that they are a weakness... he himself has displayed emotions, albeit in a weird way, but definitely emotions. I don't think Edsedo meant "programming" as in a mechanical way... I think he was referring to the bioengineering, and that certain advantages were bred into them. As for their shapeshifting abilities... I keep wondering why, if they can manipulate molecular structure, they CAN'T shapeshift. Couldn't they manipulate their own molecules? Maybe Edsedo wasn't really sure about this, or maybe he was lying, or maybe he just didn't take the molecular thing into account. I know this was rambling, but I'm a rambling kind of gal... 09-15-2000 08:58 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 I'm here to annouce that shapeshifter and I are going to make an attempt to document the Season One Science Fiction Theories onto their own Website. Many of you should be receiving an email to your FanForum email address in regards to this from maxcedo@hotmail.com. The site is under heavy construction, but if you wear hard hats and watch your step (to avoid falling into black plot holes), you can visit at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell We would very much like permission to quote (and give credit) to many of you. If you do not receive an email, you can look for a thread I will start soon titled Season One SciFi Theories Archive Project that will further explain what we are doing. maxcedo@hotmail.com for comments. From Nebraska Qfanny! Now go click that ad! [Edited by Qfanny on 09-15-2000 at 09:14 PM] 09-15-2000 09:06 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Whooo... Qfanny and shapeshifter... you guys ROCK!!! 09-16-2000 01:25 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 I don't think Edsedo meant "programming" as in a mechanical way... I think he was referring to the bioengineering, and that certain advantages were bred into them. A Lorrileii: I agree that he was referring to the bioengineered aspect of their origins. But the term "programming" is one that is routinely used of machines and evokes a certain image. That's what I was referring to. That is, "programming" involves outside something external rather than an internal point of origin (NOTE: I have no idea if computers can be self-programming--but even they can their initial program would not be self originated). For example, would you like a lover who has been programmed to love (remember Data in the first season with the chief of Security?)or one who has fallen in love with you? Of course the issue might be that Data could have sex but not love--and that love cannot be programmed. What do you think? One of the fanfics, for example, develop the idea of whether Max and Liz can overcome the genetically programmed match between Max and Tess.(Of course, they do--proving that programmed mates are no match for ones based in choice). LSS 09-16-2000 01:45 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 ...All of the above makes me wonder if the planners of this whole scheme knew what the ramifications of mixing the two species would be. Were they counting on the alien instinct to over ride the human emotions... or were they hoping that human emotions would be an asset to the podsters? ... Oooo, Lorrilei, that looks like a good quote for the Archive Web Page. 09-16-2000 10:02 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 I have something to share with all of us theorists: Boy have we been wrong about the short-hair/long-hair little Isabel. Read this: quote: originally posted on the More Bloopers thread by Double_D: I really don't think it's all that complicated, guys. The original little girl who portrayed the young Isabel was David Nutter's daughter Zoe. David Nutter left "Roswell" about this time to work on developing "Dark Angel" for Jim Cameron and FOX. I'm sure that when he left, his daughter was no longer available, so they cast another little girl who may have resembled Katy Heigl a bit more. As a side note, the little boy who plays young Michael is, I believe, Robert Katims. Still digging for stuff for the Archive page. Please send all concise theories to us at maxcedo@hotmail.com. Thanks. 09-16-2000 10:08 PM DawsonJoey4ever Crazed Fan       Registered: Nov 1999 I'm reasonably sure that it was still Zoe as young Isabel. Someone should check the credits. 09-16-2000 11:48 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter Please send all concise theories to us at maxcedo@hotmail.com. Thanks. Concise and our theories... kind of an oxymoron, don't you think? 09-17-2000 12:12 AM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 Yea, well, like John Lennon said, "You can say that I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one." (He'd probably like these threads because they are a vehicle for positive relations between the nations' citizens.) [Edited by shapeshifter on 09-17-2000 at 12:16 AM] 09-17-2000 12:24 AM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Yeah, if only the United Nations could converse via message board... 09-17-2000 06:59 AM huggybehr Dedicated Fan       Registered: Apr 2000 quote: Originally posted by tanchel Free will vs. Programming: (Qfanny always constructs the best mini-essays) We saw a shade of this issue earlier in the season with Independence Day. Max accused Michael of using Hank as an excuse for screwing up and not taking responsibility for his own actions. This whole programmed destiny is the same excuse in a slightly different package. Your past can often determine who you are, but you determine who you become. We saw Michael leap onto the 'we were engineered' theory pretty darn fast, as if it suddenly made everything clear to him. I'll be interested to see how Michael comes to understand that he still has difficult choices ahead of him and that his 'destiny' could bring more problems than it solves. tanchel That is a really interesting point tanchel. I think Michael feels that he has so little control in his own life and does not have the internal resources Max and Isabel have developed from experiencing love and security with their adoptive parents. As a result he is looking for, and needs, external resources to validate his existence. I am sure this will become a theme is season 2, with Michael wanting to wholeheartedly embrace his alien heritage (after all, what has being human really done for him?), while Max will be more cautious about going out looking for evil aliens to battle. On the nature of the podsters, there had to be a reason why their essence was "...duplicated, cloned and mixed with human genetic material..." so that they could be recreated as human beings. Humans have emotions and freewill. The podsters 'gifts' are actually advanced human abilities. Part of what the mommagram said was that they were to learn how to use these gifts to defeat their enemies. IMHO, therefore, it follows that there must be something unique about being human, that is a key to defeating the enemy. Either the home planet underestimated the power of human emotions and self-determination, or they need these qualities in combination with alien 'duty', to succeed in their mission. I also think that 'destiny' is a red herring. It is only Tess who has been harping on about 'destiny' and in her mind, it was solely related to the podsters pairing up for the purpose of procreation. Nowhere in the mommagram message does she indicate that it is vital that the podsters pair up in order to save the home planet. Although emotions can be a weakness, Roswell has also shown emotions as a strength. Surely the Max and Liz relationship is a source of strength to both parties. I don't believe these two could have done what they have done and survived all they have been through without the strongest human emotion - love to sustain them (sorry about that, I know this is supposed to be a sci-fi thread!) 09-17-2000 08:09 AM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 quote: Originally posted by Palomino 1. How does this affect them physically? Will they ever be able to "grow into" shapeshifting? Tess said they can't SS because they have human bodies. Has Harding been very straight forward with her? She tells Max how little she knows about Harding, and how little he has told her. Did she just assume this? Can they maybe get this ability after alien puberty sometime? Harding told Michael their powers were human (several thousand years advanced). The podsters can give silver handprints, just like the aliens. Does that mean the aliens are human too, and this is what we will evolve into? (One of those "we are from your future" plotlines where the podsters have been sent back in time to change it.) 2. How does this change them mentally? Are their minds more like humans than aliens? It would seem so with Harding being wierded out. Is their mission counting on them being different? Is this why they were brought here? 3. Do the aliens know the podsters are going to be this different, and maybe chose not to follow destiny?? I'm going back to these questions Palomino posted... 1) I am particulary curious about podster shapeshifting. In BD, TH, and WR all three podsters attempt or do use their powers to change a feature on themselves or someone else. As an audience we may have our own notion as to what shapeshifting is... Roswell is different. Ed Harding can shapeshift into a wall-- very unusual as I think LSS has already pointed out. Max: Why can he shapeshift and we can't Tess: Because he doesn't have a human body like us. It sounds to me that Harding and Tess consider shapeshifting to be changing from human to wall to bird to whatever.... The podsters consider shapeshifting to change appearances only. They may be able to alter their exteriors, but to what extent? Can the cross genders? Can they do the "clothes-buff-clothes" thing? Their skeletal system forces them to human, but it seems they can alter there own appearance. 2) I suggest that their brains function like humans, they just use more of it. I think that if they "thought" like aliens then we'd lose a whole lot of the storyline. I want to relate to the podsters. 3) I assume that the shapeshifters that seem to protect and serve the podsters know that they are different. It doesn't seem that they understand though what it means to have a human side. If you meant the evil aliens, I would hope that they would not have this information. It seems that the evil aliens may know more about the podsters than podsters do themselves. Very interesting points brought up by your questions. I too wonder if they thought about the consequences of mixing two races together. From Nebraska Qfanny Season One Theories! maxcedo@hotmail.com [Edited by Qfanny on 09-17-2000 at 08:14 AM] 09-17-2000 01:51 PM Reggie Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny The podsters consider shapeshifting to change appearances only. They may be able to alter their exteriors, but to what extent? Can the cross genders? Can they do the "clothes-buff-clothes" thing? Their skeletal system forces them to human, but it seems they can alter their own appearance. From Nebraska Qfanny Re the clothes/buff thing: that is, are a (Roswell) shapeshifter's clothes part of him, or seperate items; in other words, normal clothes? I commented on this, just before the board's latest set of convulsions. I think it dissappeared, so I'll say it again (but not as well . Consider a shapeshifter, wearing a coat and hat, and shoes. If the coat and hat are really his own flesh (like Odo on ST/DS9), he's getting cold. Likewise, if those shoes are his feet, they're going to get hurt. On the other hand, if they are all real clothing, then the shapeshifter can be warm and protected. In WR, we see Harding change into the black FBI agent. His clothes must have been altered to fit. He may have had to change into other people or things. In this case, it would make sense for him to be his own clothing. This would explain why, when he was being revived and showed his alien form, he had no other clothes on. He may have had shoes on, though; he could reasonably plan for running over rough ground during the escape. This would explain why Liz was staring at him so: a naked alien, wearing (FBI) dress shoes. Not to forget, Michael's real clothing was altered by Harding into a suitable form for an FBI agent. (pun intended ) 09-17-2000 05:10 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Reggie : I don't think Liz was looking at his shoes. In fact, since she knew Max had alien DNA, this may explain why she left him. 09-17-2000 11:24 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 I would be interested to see what they can do in terms of cross-gendering shapeshifting... that could lead to some very interesting story lines... not to mention great insight! 09-18-2000 09:44 AM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 I would be interested to see what they can do in terms of cross-gendering shapeshifting... that could lead to some very interesting story lines... not to mention great insight! Hi Lorrilei: On one of the original SF of [episode] threads we had a long conversation about the nature of shapeshifting before we even "met" a shapeshifter on Roswell's stage. Some of the more interesting issues we raised which you might be interested in (I don't remember you being on those threads at that time) are the following: ON THE NATURE OF SHAPESHIFTING AND ROSWELL: 1. MASS. What relationship does the total mass of the ss have to do with the shape into which it shifts? Is the original alien form so dense that it can be manipulated into larger but less dense forms? Or does the weight of the original form have to equal that of the end form? In other words--can a small alien ss into a large human? Or smaller? Are there any limits to the forms into which it can shift? 2. GENDER. Is it even appropriate to talk about sexual identity with shapeshifters? That is--do ss's have a core sexual identity or can it change with shifting shapes? Is the core identity neuter with shifts to male or female? Or if the core shape has a sexual identity, can that identity shift with the shape? How deep is that sexual identity? 3. FORM SHIFTS. Are shifts in form cosmetic only or do they have "essential" dimensions? What of "personality"? Can shapeshifters shift to animal forms (a popular motif in mythical stories)? Can a shapeshifter get "caught" in a form and be unable to shift back? When it "dies" does it revert to its original shape (Harding didn't seem to but was that really "death" we saw)? Can a shapeshifter shift into a non-living form? Is that what Harding did in the pod chamber? Are we to think of character like Deep Space Nine's Odo(sp?)? Anyway, these are a few of the issues we addressed back then--there were more but that's all I can recall off the top of my head. LSS 09-18-2000 12:01 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 Related to the shapeshifting gender issue: In M2M when Maxcedo tell Liz he is also Ed Harding she acts very surprised and says: "That was you?!" Since Liz was not privy to the "She's one of us" discussion regarding Tess, it occurred to me that she may have still been thinking that Tess was Nasedo. Recall from 4sq: ISABEL: I donít think that anyone, or anything that would pretend to be a teenage girl in order to seduce Max is on our side. 09-18-2000 01:22 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter Related to the shapeshifting gender issue: In M2M when Maxcedo tell Liz he is also Ed Harding she acts very surprised and says: "That was you?!" Since Liz was not privy to the "She's one of us" discussion regarding Tess, it occurred to me that she may have still been thinking that Tess was Nasedo. Recall from 4sq: ISABEL: I donít think that anyone, or anything that would pretend to be a teenage girl in order to seduce Max is on our side. shapeshifter: Good point. The above quotes let us know that Isabel (and maybe Liz) ASSUMES that Nesedo can ss into a human female (because they think Tess = Nesedo). But the question still remains (especially since the storyline asit currently stands has Tess NOT being Nesedo) -- are they correct in assuming that a male can shift into female form (if, indeed, Nesedo IS a male)? LSS 09-18-2000 06:40 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 Shapeshifter: Your line quote of Liz saying, "That was you," is good. Maxcedo would be proud. But a cringy thought came over me. Liz must have thought that she kissed Tess. And when/where do you suppose Liz was brought up to speed on Tess being a podster. Sure, it was at the carnivel, but do you really think that Nasedo would have spent a great deal of time explaining this?????? I really think that Liz was sort of in the dark about the baby and Tess as a podster up until the bus scene in Destiny. This seems to be an apprioprate place to switch topics to Agent Pierce. I have long thought Pierce to be an evil alien. (but not as long as Palomino) Harding gives a brief biology lesson in WR, that he can't get past the hand scanner because his bone structure is "far from human." Well, neither can Pierce. He trys, and I think we are meant to assume that the blood on his hand is interfering with the scan. Well, the scanner scans for bone structure. Isn't it like an x-ray? Why would blood on someone's hand make a difference??? From Nebraska Qfanny! email maxcedo@hotmail.com with your season one theory! don't forget to oblige the ad! 09-18-2000 06:48 PM Nemo Addicted Fan       Registered: Dec 1999 Because it's also a fingerprint scanner. 09-18-2000 06:59 PM jenlev Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 hi there, ok, if pierce was an 'evil-alien' that might explain why nasedo was so intent on killing him that he was reduced to coming up with the plan to impersonate max and 'abduct' liz. and if pierce was an 'evil-alien' then nasedo might have expected him to fall for the idea that max had been nasedo all along? in the white room pierce seems to think he has nasedo until he sees the x-rays of max? wait, i'm already confused, it's that darn 'shapeshifter-shell-game' again--- help! and this all raises the issue of what was nasedo's reasoning for NOT telling the podsters more about pierce? anyway, i am also leaning towards the idea that there is more information to be learned about pierce in season 2. ack, is it oct. 2nd yet? jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 09-18-2000 at 07:02 PM] 09-18-2000 09:11 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 Thoughts on The White Room: The scanner: Nemo, I now think your right. Shapeshifting: LSS asked 1. MASS. What relationship does the total mass of the ss have to do with the shape into which it shifts? Is the original alien form so dense that it can be manipulated into larger but less dense forms? Or does the weight of the original form have to equal that of the end form? In other words--can a small alien ss into a large human? Or smaller? Are there any limits to the forms into which it can shift? Qfanny says At first, this made a lot of sense. That to shapeshift, you had "move" between similiar sizes and masses. But then I got to thinking about cheesecake. I often wonder why when I have a slice of cheesecake, I gain five pounds. I know that the whole pie itself doesn't weight five pound. The answer is calories and metabolism. Applied to shapeshifting, could mass and denisty for a shapeshifter all be relative? Is there somesort of caloric - metabolic change that occurs when shapeshifting that would allow for moving from different sizes and masses. I think that size does not matter depending on how effecient the shapeshifter is. Next question. LSS asked 2. GENDER. Is it even appropriate to talk about sexual identity with shapeshifters? That is--do ss's have a core sexual identity or can it change with shifting shapes? Is the core identity neuter with shifts to male or female? Or if the core shape has a sexual identity, can that identity shift with the shape? How deep is that sexual identity? Qfanny says I don't think that the shapeshifters have a gender. You do see Harding always as a male, but is more likely because males are traditionally the authority figures. It is likely that when the podsters were designed, that the engineers sought to use gender. They must have saw how strong the relationships were between men and women were on planet Earth. I doubt that the podsters could have survived childhood and adolescense without somesort of gender identity. A coupling between male and female must have been very wonderous for the engineers. They did leave some directions in the book. Running along this point and the other above it, I started asking myself, how does a shapeshifter reproduce. If they are genderless and have this incredible flexible bodies? The apparent answer is through mitosis (sp?). They could reproduce in the same manner as a single cell organism. This would seem to bring out a whole new insight on TacTic V. Harding. What if one of the shapeshifters is the offspring of the other? It would explain there similiar characteristics, as well as offer insight on their differences. As two individuals, they would have different experiences to color their perspectives. And for those that believe or have considered more than 2 shapeshifters running amuck, it would explain how they got there. LSS asked 3. FORM SHIFTS. Are shifts in form cosmetic only or do they have "essential" dimensions? What of "personality"? Can shapeshifters shift to animal forms (a popular motif in mythical stories)? Can a shapeshifter get "caught" in a form and be unable to shift back? When it "dies" does it revert to its original shape (Harding didn't seem to but was that really "death" we saw)? Qfanny answers I think that anything is possible for the shapeshifter, but I also think that when shapeshifting into someone else identity, the also assume many of the personality traits of the person. Reason why is MaxEDo rescuing Liz before Max. I think that Max's instinct to protect Liz is somehow tied to his genetic makeup. Tess quotes: "He's never left me alone like thisbefore." and "Don't ever leave me alone like that again." Harding has left Tess alone before. What do you supposes the difference is this time. Just that she doesn't know where he is? Does anyone get the idea that the reason why Tess was separated from the others is because he was using her to lure alien hunters away from the more important podsters? Tess refers repeatively about being hunted all her life. Sorry for the mindless ramblings! From Nebraska Qfanny Remember is not an email maxcedo@hotmail.com with your season one theory. 09-18-2000 11:09 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 OK, I was kind of hesitant to post on a thread with such well thought out and complex ideas/speculations, but I've had several dilemmas concerning WR and I was hoping maybe some of you could help me make some sense of them. I'd safely assume Pierce knows what the experimented 40s alien's blood looks like (being someone that was so well studied in the data, which should include blood samples - if I'm not being overly presumptious). My question is, Is Max's blood and that of the 40s alien indeed the same? Pierce never actually says that the blood is the same as that of the experimented alien; he just says it's not at all human. Pierce seemingly already knows Max is different from the 40s alien (being so surprised from Max's human bone structure, organs, circulatory and pulmonary systems) but Pierce's strong assumptions are confirmed when he sees Max's 'completely inhuman' blood. Could Pierce believe Max is a different species or another variation of the 40s guinea pig? He (possibly) assumes they're on the "same side", due to the orbs. One orb was found "in the crash" and Pierce knew Max had the other. Apparently Pierce knows (believes) they only work in pairs (how this belief came about, I haven't the foggiest - any theories about the source of this belief out there?). Something Pierce says confuses me further... The serum we injected you with ñ very effective in suppressing the neurotransmitters in your cerebral cortex. Experiments on the alien in the forties taught us that thatís where most of your powers come from. Since Max is supposedly *very* different from Harding internally (and assuming the experimentee was just like or similar to Harding) and Pierce knows this after seeing Max's x-rays, then how did Pierce deduce that *Max's* powers come from his cerebral cortex based on the experiments made on the 40s alien? Do Harding-type aliens even have a (human-like) cerebral cortex to inject or experiment on? I'd assume so (but that's a big assumption). Although, whatever they injected Max with, it didn't seem to work very well. Despite this serum, Max *still* did that hyperspeed move. That would indicate to me, his powers were still in affect (they weren't dulled by the serum). Max just wasn't strong enough to use his powers to their full extent because of the torture. Max didn't know how to use his powers to their full extent anyway regardless of the serum's effectiveness) This is all based on assuming that the 40s experimented alien was indeed *an alien* and not, per chance, a podster. Could the 40s alien been like (yet not like) M/Mi/I/T? Perhaps more alien then the current podsters? Although why one podster (or another, whole set) might be different then the current pod squad is beyond me. I'm not at all a scientist and I'm taking several liberties in what human blood may or may not look like 1000s of years in the future, but is there a possibility it could indeed look like Max's blood? This would make M/Mi/Is/T 100% human (just much further along the genetic scale), wouldn't it? However, the fact that Max AND Nasedo both can make the silver handprints (as plainly stated by Palomino) kind of throws a wrench in that theory. Lastly, How/why does Pierce know the name "Nasedo"? In RD, River Dog says that "the man" (Nasedo) was afraid "they" were going to find him. "They", being either the feds or the enemy aliens (both? or are they one in the same? ...going along with "Pierce is an enemy alien" theory). Are we to assume the Feds were hot on Nas' trail or perhaps (like Max healing Liz) Nasedo *did* something which blew his cover hence sending the Feds running to the reservation (and possibly torturing someone their for info)? Or did Pierce just overhear Nasedo mentioned in Michael's apartment during surveillance (or any other type of podster surveillance)? Now that my brain sufficiently hurts I'll leave you serious speculators in peace. Sorry this was so long! Melodious 09-18-2000 11:54 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 Hey Melodius, it's been ages! Pierce (we believe) was the one watching and rewinding the video tape from Michael's apartment when the podsters were discusing Nasedo. Qfanny's Pierce-as-Evil-Alien Theory should be up on the Archive Thread at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell by Thursday. Sorry it's not up now, but Maxcedo has a few other priorities if y'all know what I mean. But as Maxcedo's able assistant, I have been reviewing the Theory and am starting to believe it. Think of Michael's line from SH about how maybe "that's" how they find out about themselves: by connecting with humans. Maybe Pierce is right when he says Max's people are planning to colonize the earth. This may have been the plan to save earthlings from the Evil Aliens: by intermarrying and sharing the power. And maybe there is strength in the "connections." So, where do Tess and Nasedo fit into all of this? Maybe a dissenting faction of Max's people? Not trusting The Plan? Or double agents not on anyone's side? 09-19-2000 01:59 AM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Hopefully we will find out what happened to Pierce's body after his "death" in Destiny... that might answer the question for us of whether or not he is human or evil alien.... Valenti, after all, had to go back and clean up the mess (or someone did). If the body were just shipped back to FBI headquarters, it could mysteriously disappear... or perhaps there was a "real" Pierce at one point who was killed and replaced by an evil shapeshifting alien (who has now been replaced by Nasedo... ahhhhhhh.... the mind boggles at the thought) 09-19-2000 02:26 AM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter Pierce (we believe) was the one watching and rewinding the video tape from Michael's apartment when the podsters were discusing Nasedo. This definitely makes sense, although it doesn't seem like Pierce is contemplating or is aware of the existence of possibly other aliens (supposedly) on Max's side. TicTac to name one (of course, 2 shapeshifters is still in *theory* mode, isn't it? It's a d*mn plausible theory imo) quote: Maybe Pierce is right when he says Max's people are planning to colonize the earth... OK, this is straying off the thread topic, but I recently watched a movie called Princess Mononoke (don't know if anyone here has seen it). Anyway, in the film, there were three conflicting factions. Two opposing factions (both fighting for causes they deemed worthy) and a very small third that was a splice between them both (wanting peace and co-existance rather than war). Here are the podsters. Not alien and not human, caught right in the middle of two warring alien factions: their creators and these (supposed) "evil" aliens. Their allegiance decided for them. I always thought, ultimately, the podsters would have to make a decision. Fight for their "creators" and this alien plan or fight for humanity and the only world they've ever known. These *evil* aliens and the war itself are on Earth now (as far as I can tell, directly *because* of the Podian plan revealed in mommygram). The question is, will the podsters let the only world they know be destroyed and everyone they've ever loved or cared about die because of this intergalactic war Earth was never part of in the first place? An intergalactic war they were already the casualties of once (more than likely due to some error by the Podians themselves, which is why they had to right their error by recreating the podsters)! OK, one could argue that perhaps Earth was in the path of the storm anyway (and the Podians knew this) or was LONG apart of the war already (I find this unlikely). This war would surely destroy such a weak planet if the podsters aren't on it to save it (but saving Earth isn't what the alien plan seems to be). One thing is certain, these Podians found something *special* about Earth and/or it's inhabitants which deemed it valuable enough to send it's reincarnated leaders to such a defenseless planet in (highly advanced) Earthling forms. Could this *something* be exploited by either of these superior alien races? I think so. Will they care about the human casualties... probably not. But the podsters definitely will, the aliens will never wipe away their humanity (or at least, that's what I'd like to believe). Melodious 09-19-2000 04:44 AM jenlev Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 hi there, hey melodious1! nice to see you on the thread. great comment about "max not knowing how to use his powers to their full extent regardless of the serum". and also your comment about the impact of the trauma on max's ability to focus and use his 'abilities'. i also imagine that despite the differences between the two species; if it's possible to create hybrids then there will be similarities in biology etc.. this might account for the impact of the serum on max? and the agents may have made the assumption that whatever was happening, the serum would have some sort of effect. they seemed to be so intent on moving forward with their interrogation quickly they might not have stopped to do any research first. also; they did seem a bit surprised about how the first medication they gave him impacted him. this seems to fit with the podsters general vunerability to medication and alcohol? jenlev 09-19-2000 10:42 AM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Melodious1 My question is, Is Max's blood and that of the 40s alien indeed the same? Hi Melodious1: You know, that is an excellent question. Especially since Pierce never explicitly connects the two in the dialogue. You might expect something like--"unlike those other aliens, your internal organs are human BUT your blood IS the same as those others" or something like that...but he never does. Still, we do not have evidence that would indicate Pierce thinks we are dealing with another alien species either. Interesting. quote: Apparently Pierce knows (believes) they [the orbs]only work in pairs (how this belief came about, I haven't the foggiest - any theories about the source of this belief out there?). Oh dear--don't get QFanny started on the orbs again!!! (She is probably sick and tired of them having already posted about them on various threads! LSS waves at QFanny who is an insightful poster on the SF threads!!!). Let me see if I can summarize some of the theories thus far: 1) Pierce knows the orbs work in pairs because the captured alien must have told the FBI previously (but lacking a second orb the FBI could not make the "work"). 2) Pierce "knows" because the captured alien told the FBI--but it was a misdirection--the alien lied--the orbs CAN work individually. 3) Pierce is an alien so of course he knows. 4) Since Topolsky knows, it must be common knowledge in the FBI Alien Hunting unit--perhaps they initially HAD two orbs, but Harding took one with him (and later buried it by the radio tower) when he escaped from the Eagle Rock Military Installation. 5) Maybe there are more than the two orbs we currently know of and someone has made them work (but then WHY wouldn't Pierce know how they worked already?). 6) The orbs are sentient and the orb in captivity told them. (We are getting WAY out there with this one.) As I said, the above are only a view of the theories, but you can see how they range all over the board! quote: Since Max is supposedly *very* different from Harding internally (and assuming the experimentee was just like or similar to Harding) and Pierce knows this after seeing Max's x-rays, then how did Pierce deduce that *Max's* powers come from his cerebral cortex based on the experiments made on the 40s alien? Do Harding-type aliens even have a (human-like) cerebral cortex to inject or experiment on? I'd assume so (but that's a big assumption). Again this is an excellent point and was actually raised on an earlier SF thread (sorry, but I can remember who initally raised it). You are right--it IS a big assumption. But one I think the writers intend us to make. This is (as far as I am concerned) one of those attempts at a SF explanation that "works" only if you don't examine it too closely! quote: I'm not at all a scientist and I'm taking several liberties in what human blood may or may not look like 1000s of years in the future, but is there a possibility it could indeed look like Max's blood? Science types who have posted previously have voiced two opinions: 1) that evolution would take far more than 1,000 to come up with the changes implied in our storyline, and 2) changes like this COULD be possible under certain circumstances -- i.e. an evolutionary "crisis" demanding a change for survival's sake. I am in the humanities and NOT the sciences so I cannot advise you which is the more accurate opinion(or whether both are, in their own ways, correct). quote: Lastly, How/why does Pierce know the name "Nasedo"? In RD, River Dog says that "the man" (Nasedo) was afraid "they" were going to find him. "They", being either the feds or the enemy aliens (both? or are they one in the same? ...going along with "Pierce is an enemy alien" theory). Are we to assume the Feds were hot on Nas' trail or perhaps (like Max healing Liz) Nasedo *did* something which blew his cover hence sending the Feds running to the reservation (and possibly torturing someone their for info)? Or did Pierce just overhear Nasedo mentioned in Michael's apartment during surveillance (or any other type of podster surveillance)? Truthfully, I think your last suggestion "works" for the audience. Great questions and observations. LSS 09-19-2000 12:57 PM Liriel Dedicated Fan       Registered: Aug 2000 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny Thoughts on The White Room: Does anyone get the idea that the reason why Tess was separated from the others is because he was using her to lure alien hunters away from the more important podsters? Tess refers repeatively about being hunted all her life. Sorry for the mindless ramblings! From Nebraska Qfanny Remember is not an email maxcedo@hotmail.com with your season one theory. Nah, I just think Nasedo was too arrogant to keep the hunters away. He killed people left and right and left evidence for anyone to find. Geez, at least TICTAC had the brains to bury the bodies. (and he arranged for Hank to disappear, giving himself time to get out of dodge before his absence was ever noticed anywhere . . .well, no one ever noticed he was gone, but they might have) 09-19-2000 01:16 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Liriel Geez, at least TICTAC had the brains to bury the bodies. (and he arranged for Hank to disappear, giving himself time to get out of dodge before his absence was ever noticed anywhere . . .well, no one ever noticed he was gone, but they might have) Liriel: But as you noted before--Nesedo/Max had a reason for leaving those bodies...an intent. I do not see it as a lack of intelligence really--do you? But it does make you wonder about all of those other bodies with palm prints. Perhaps decoys to keep the FBI away from Roswell and its contents? LSS 09-19-2000 01:44 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by LSS Let me see if I can summarize some of the theories thus far... Thanks so much LSS for listing those orb theories (and QFanny for coming up with them ). Also thanks for your insight about my questions. I thought of a rather far-fetched orb theory (all apologies if this has already been pondered). I know this is basing speculations on speculations (and probably doesn't belong on this thread), but if Pierce (as well as possibly other feds/gov't types) is an "evil alien", then how about this scenario: Pierce says in WR the Fed orb was found in "the crash site". It's been speculated that the Podian ship crashed because it was attacked by persuing "evil aliens". The EA track the ship's descent to Earth, attack the crashed ship. The Podians fought them off (possibly thinking they killed all the EAs) and keep the podsters undiscovered. Some EA managed to snag an orb and escape (unbeknownst to the 2 surviving Podians - the 2 that were captured by the Feds). Unfortunately, the EA have no idea how the orb works or what it does. EA later learn about the 'recreated Podian leaders' who may be the only ones that know how to activate/use the orb. They quickly sumise the best way to find the 'leaders' w/out being discovered themselves is mixing in with humans. They want to know how to use the orb(s) before the 'leaders' use it (them) against them. I think it would be a novel idea if the "special units" were started by these "evil aliens" in the first place to specifically find these hidden leaders (and other orbs). Aliens using the gov't to find other aliens. Including some of the theories LSS mentioned, these "evil aliens" (in the guise of Feds) torture a Podian for 3 years trying to get information out of him/her. If the podian was steering them in the wrong direction, this could explain why the podsters were so hard/impossible to find (the Podian leading them in every direction but the pod chamber). Lying to them, saying the orbs are communicators and they only work in pairs. Which is much more harmless than, I don't know, powerful energy weapons perhaps (that can function alone). Who knows what the orbs can do! Suffice to say, the Podian eventually figures out it's EA that's torturing him/her and not humans. S/he knows the EA would exploit the orbs against 'his/her kind' if s/he told them the (whole) truth. The Podian would have risked death before telling humans (especially EA) anything accurate. Although if s/he knew they were EA, s/he'd have had to conceal this from the EA very well (not letting them know s/he was onto them). The tortured podian never made it out of Eagle Rock alive, hence never told Nasedo about the EA's in the gov't? Although Nasedo is certainly dicey around Pierce and other Feds ('kill or be killed' kind of attitude), kind of strange considering his beliefs that humans are useless and wasteful. Makes me think Harding isn't threatened by humans; but is definitely threatened by Pierce (not 'the human Pierce', just Pierce) - Harding has repeatedly said this literally word-for-word. Then why doesn't he tell the podsters, "HEY, I think Pierce might be an evil alien, stay away from him!" I assume he either doesn't suspect or expected to kill him before he was trouble? ...my brain hurts again. Melodious 09-19-2000 01:51 PM sdseddie Dedicated Fan       Registered: Mar 2000 So according to Harding, Nacedo and maybe Tess; they're bio-engineered? Something wrong with the 2 or 3 biggest liars on Roswell being honest strike anyone as true? Or have subliminaballe ratz eaten some mindz away by ??? eddie from reality-world. 09-19-2000 01:57 PM LSS Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by sdseddie So according to Harding, Nacedo and maybe Tess; they're bio-engineered? Something wrong with the 2 or 3 biggest liars on Roswell being honest strike anyone as true? Or have subliminaballe ratz eaten some mindz away by ??? eddie from reality-world. You know, I think the first time we hear of the "bioengineered" idea is from Michael as he "reads/looks at" the book. Later, Harding will flesh out that idea. But if I remember correctly, it is Michael from whom we first get this idea. [In the storyline that is. The idea itself appeared on the spoiler page at Crashdown.com before the eppy aired.] BTW--you are right to question the Hardings--but I'm not sure that this piece of info is limited to just their testimony. LSS [Edited by LSS on 09-19-2000 at 01:59 PM] 09-19-2000 04:47 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 LSS. I thank you for intervening on my behalf. Just when I think I get out, they pull me back in!!!! Melodious1: Thanks for posting. I believe we share the same ideas on the orbs, but for every poster out there, there is also a slightly different orb theory. I would love to discuss this with you. I will email you privately. (Don't we call the same city home.) I recommend visiting theses threads-- SciFi of Crazy SciFi of TLV & 4S And visit Maxcedo at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/ From Nebraska Qfanny! Don't forget to click FF ads. Email Season One theories to Maxcedo maxcedo@hotmail.com [Edited by Qfanny on 09-19-2000 at 06:47 PM] 09-19-2000 08:27 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by LSS quote: Originally posted by Liriel Geez, at least TICTAC had the brains to bury the bodies. (and he arranged for Hank to disappear, giving himself time to get out of dodge before his absence was ever noticed anywhere . . .well, no one ever noticed he was gone, but they might have) Liriel: But as you noted before--Nesedo/Max had a reason for leaving those bodies...an intent. I do not see it as a lack of intelligence really--do you? But it does make you wonder about all of those other bodies with palm prints. Perhaps decoys to keep the FBI away from Roswell and its contents? LSS Either Edsedo was truly being careless, or (and I do prefer this theory) his job was to lead the hunters away from the podsters... that may be why Edsedo and Tess were continually on the move, and why the evidence was left in plain sight... otherwise he would have stayed near Roswell and been involved the the tripodsters lives... (unless, of course, he WAS the alien that was captured and escaped... but still he could change his appearance... ahhhhh... once again I've gotten myself all tangled up in the slippery threads of conjecture) 09-19-2000 09:37 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Lorrilei1960, LSS, and all : I don't know if the writers intended this or not but ... In "The Convention" Hubble said the SSer had left carnage all over the southwest for the past forty years. He used connections to get the photos of the bodies except the one that was his "own work"(Sheila). In WR Pierce interrogates Max about murders that happened all over the US. Tess, and her school records(faked?), said that she had lived all over with Harding. If Hubble was trying to make the point to Valenti that the SSer was dangerous, then wouldn't he be quick to say the carnage was all over the US? Understandable if the FBI didn't want word of their own being murdered getting out, but they probably didn't want word of any silver hand prints getting out. Even if Hubble only knew of the non-FBI murders, why did he assume the murders went no further than his connections? Didn't he look any further? Did Harding and/or Tic-tac kill only FBI nation-wide, and "just people in the wrong place at the wrong time" when visiting the southwest? So maybe one SSer stays in the SW and fries only civies, while the other quietly goes after FBI around the nation? Maybe one silver hand doesn't know what the other silver hand is doing? Maybe an SSer lives in the sw, but kills FBI while on vacation trips? (Now I'm rambling and should be in bed.) It's not a big deal, but another one of those nagging little inconsistancies. 09-19-2000 10:02 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Palomino Lorrilei1960, LSS, and all : I don't know if the writers intended this or not but ... In "The Convention" Hubble said the SSer had left carnage all over the southwest for the past forty years. He used connections to get the photos of the bodies except the one that was his "own work"(Sheila). In WR Pierce interrogates Max about murders that happened all over the US. Tess, and her school records(faked?), said that she had lived all over with Harding. If Hubble was trying to make the point to Valenti that the SSer was dangerous, then wouldn't he be quick to say the carnage was all over the US? Understandable if the FBI didn't want word of their own being murdered getting out, but they probably didn't want word of any silver hand prints getting out. Even if Hubble only knew of the non-FBI murders, why did he assume the murders went no further than his connections? Didn't he look any further? Did Harding and/or Tic-tac kill only FBI nation-wide, and "just people in the wrong place at the wrong time" when visiting the southwest? So maybe one SSer stays in the SW and fries only civies, while the other quietly goes after FBI around the nation? Maybe one silver hand doesn't know what the other silver hand is doing? Maybe an SSer lives in the sw, but kills FBI while on vacation trips? (Now I'm rambling and should be in bed.) It's not a big deal, but another one of those nagging little inconsistancies. Hi Palomino: Yes the geographical "lists" of the killings do not match up. Some of our options are (and I include the ones you've mentioned): 1) Two different ss's working in different geographical locales. Or maybe there is a network of killers out there, not merely two. 2) Two different lists based on incomplete sources. 3) One list is selective (i.e. Pierce's list is not meant to be exaustive--he only means to list important FBI victims--although he knows of other killings). 4) An editorial snaffu--the infamous plot discrepency we've come to expect (sigh). BTW, Palomino remember that discussion on a previous SF thread where people questioned the difference in the killing print for which Harding was responsible? He killed using more of a "heat" effect. But of course that may well be due--not to a different killer--but to a switch in plot direction. Without going into spoiler territory, I think that the difference in prints might well indicate that the writers decided to "go in a certain direction" that they originally had not foreseen. And something like that plays hell with theorists such as us!!!! LSS 09-19-2000 10:03 PM Lone Eagle Fan       Registered: Sep 2000 Hello Everyone, 09-19-2000 10:06 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Lone Eagle Hello Everyone, Lone Eagle: I don't think I've ever seen a "0" post before!!! [Okay--that's wierd...it now has a "1" on it.] Welcome to the SF threads--hope you try to post again, the above did not come through (unless you meant to just say "hi"). LSS [Edited by LSS on 09-19-2000 at 10:11 PM] 09-19-2000 10:13 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by LSS quote: ...it does make you wonder about all of those other bodies with palm prints. Perhaps decoys to keep the FBI away from Roswell and its contents? LSS LSS, I have a slight dilemma with what you said above and something Harding says in WR... ******* MICHAEL: Iíve been looking for you for a long time. NASEDO: Not as long as Iíve been looking for you. Now youíre about to get yourselves killed. ******* That quote (besides confusing me beyond measure) kind of makes me think Edsedo had no idea where the podsters were. Why would he leave a trail of handprints leading away from Roswell? Unless you're implying LSS there's something in Roswell (or vicinity), besides the Podsters, Harding definitely knew about that he didn't want the Feds to find. If so, what? The buried orb? Edsedo says he was captured and escaped Eagle Rock and Pierce seemingly confirms this, so I assume he was at least in the vicinity of the 1947 crash in order to be captured (whether he was actually in the ship or not might be questionable, although I'd assume he was). How the h*ll did he get so thrown off course? It seemed to me he was searching the entire country for the podsters (and incidentally leaving this trail of handprinted bodies... I speculate he did this to keep the Feds eyes on him and not search for anything which may or may not be in Roswell or anywhere else). Yet he knew exactly where the pod chamber was because he found Tess. He knew where the pod chamber was, but he didn't realize the podsters might be in Roswell? Huh? I was thinking he didn't know where the pod chamber was either, until later, just around the time of Tess' hatching (how fortunate for her!). I always thought he was the one that put the pods in the mountain. I'm not so sure now. After he collected Tess, did he repeatedly search Roswell (seemingly the only major city in the area) and find nothing? Are the podsters *that* difficult to find? I'd assume because they're so human, they blend, hence the difficulty (and when Liz was shot, Voila - podsters found?). Or were Feds/evil aliens breathing down his throat and he had to hurry out of town (unable to search) with Tess before they caught up to him? I think it's all a little fishy that Harding didn't heavily stake out Roswell from the getgo. He's a shapeshifter for pete's sakes, he could have very easily shifted into ANY form (and change his form as he saw fit). He could have visited Roswell as many times as he wanted (prior Tess). Did he? I don't know, it doesn't seem like it. I'd think he'd make Ros a 'base of operations' so to speak. It's not only where one of the orbs is buried (which Edsedo may or may not have known - and he quite possibly didn't know - that would be very Harding), but it's also the crash site. What's this about "not as long as I've been looking for you"?! argh!!! Melodious 09-19-2000 10:43 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Melodious1 quote: Originally posted by LSS quote: ...it does make you wonder about all of those other bodies with palm prints. Perhaps decoys to keep the FBI away from Roswell and its contents? LSS LSS, I have a slight dilemma with what you said above and something Harding says in WR... ******* MICHAEL: Iíve been looking for you for a long time. NASEDO: Not as long as Iíve been looking for you. Now youíre about to get yourselves killed. ******* That quote (besides confusing me beyond measure) kind of makes me think Edsedo had no idea where the podsters were. Remember that the pod chamber is in/near Roswell--Harding knows that. That in itself is enough cause to lead the FBI away from Roswell regardless of whether or not Harding knew our podsters' current identities. LSS 09-19-2000 10:57 PM Lone Eagle Fan       Registered: Sep 2000 Hello Everyone, In response to other peoples postings, I have come to the theory that the "Pod Squad" wasn't programed like machines, but rather they possess some sort of genetic memory. It would sort of explain how they retain the ability to use them at will or as a sort of instinctive response (Max healing Liz, Michael killing Pierce). As far as the aliens growing into the ability to shapeshift. They may be able to do so, but not to the same extent as Nasedo. Because they possess human skeletal structures(dense bone), they cannot change into other people. However, they should be able to change their outward appearance(hair or eye color, fingerprints) the same way they alter molecular structures now. They might be able to change their features, but under their skin would still be an unaltered skeleton. That's all I've got for now. Tell me what you all think. Lone Eagle 09-19-2000 11:25 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by LSS Remember that the pod chamber is in/near Roswell--Harding knows that. That in itself is enough cause to lead the FBI away from Roswell regardless of whether or not Harding knew our podsters' current identities. LSS This would have to mean Harding always knew where the pod chamber was (I guess I can believe that). He has his watch set for the podster hatch date. He wanders all over the country (world?) throwing off the Feds/special unit, keeping their eyes off Roswell. Not realizing, 1989, 3 podsters have prematurely (?) emerged from their pods. His podster timer goes off and he goes back to Ros to collect them. Surprise surprise, there's only one podster there (although I'm still questioning Tess' authenticity because of the inconsistencies between Max's memories prior/post Tess' arrival). I'm still a bit perplexed about the events after this. I assume he definitely kept an eye on Roswell (and surrounds) after collecting Tess, while simultaneously resuming his old role of throwing off the Feds. Keeping an eye on Roswell media, he reads about a (peculiar) shooting, he checks it out - bam -search is over. When Harding says, "Not as long as I've been looking for you." Harding seems to be aware how long the podsters have been looking for him. I assume this is because of the forest symbol in ITW. This is when Harding decided to *introduce himself* to the podsters, hence, this is how Harding nows he's been searching for them 'longer' then they've been searching for him. Even though the podsters *knew* about Nasedo prior ITW. Melodious 09-20-2000 05:01 AM jenlev Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 hi there, melodious1: maybe nasedo wasn't on the spaceship when it crashed. maybe he was actually the guy on the ground waving them in with the flashlight thingies? jenlev 09-20-2000 12:03 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: This would have to mean Harding always knew where the pod chamber was (I guess I can believe that). I am assuming this too as Tess tells the teens (in Destiny) that Harding told her that in times of emergency to go to the chamber and wait. It sounds like the chamber was his backup plan in times of crisis--a safe house/cave. quote: He has his watch set for the podster hatch date. He wanders all over the country (world?) throwing off the Feds/special unit, keeping their eyes off Roswell. Think about it---would you like to remain alone in a chamber for decades? And of course we DO NOT KNOW if the pods were on the ship or their contents were engineered on earth (as yet we don't know that is). If the later then Harding HAS to go out to procure human genetic materials. The momogram never tells us if the alien essence is mixed before or after the ship leaves the home planet. And then there is the issue of how much information Harding has about earth culture--even ss's might have to "learn" how to fit in unless they can access "memories" of the humans around them. Is roaming around necessary to acclimate to earth ways? Even if he has undergone training in earth mores it couldn't hurt to brush up. The problem is, of course, why it takes so-o-o-o long for the podsters to ripen/come to term/be educated/ or whatever being in those strange looking almost organic sacs accomplish. quote: I assume he definitely kept an eye on Roswell (and surrounds) after collecting Tess, while simultaneously resuming his old role of throwing off the Feds. Keeping an eye on Roswell media, he reads about a (peculiar) shooting, he checks it out - bam -search is over. You know, if Harding is the ss that escaped, it stands to reason that he might NOT want to stay around Roswell to "look" for the missing hatchees after poicking up Tess. Since Tess said they were constantly on the run, this implies that it might have caused attention if Harding HAD stayed around. And then the issue would have been who found the podsters first--the FBI alien hunting unit or Harding. Perhaps the healing of Liz forced his hand. He might even have known of the Pierce/Topolsky threat. These are simply plausible scenarios. I think that season 2 plans to resolve some of these issues however. LSS 09-20-2000 12:14 PM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by jenlev hi there, melodious1: maybe nasedo wasn't on the spaceship when it crashed. maybe he was actually the guy on the ground waving them in with the flashlight thingies? jenlev Hi jenlev: You are correct. We do not have conclusive proof of the relationship between the "crash" and the pod chamber. Some theories that have been batted around on the board suggest that: 1) The pods were on the ship and secreted away in the chamber after the crash; or 2) The alien "essences" were on the ship that crashed and these were used to to construct the pods in the chamber/lab; or 3) The crash and the chamber are not causally related. The pods were a product of a later stage of alien influence. Roswell just happens to be a location of alien population concentration; BTW--Post Destiny awareness might imply that there are more pods out "there" and that perhaps Harding's actions (or other ss's actions aka killing) should be understood in the context of other pod locations. Pierce places nesedo at the crash site. Harding also seems to imply that he was a survivor from the crash (by implying that he was the one kept in captivity from the crash). What we do not know is his relation to that elusive pod chamber. LSS [Edited by LSS on 09-20-2000 at 12:18 PM] 09-20-2000 12:35 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 quote: Originally posted by Melodious1 MICHAEL: Iíve been looking for you for a long time. NASEDO: Not as long as Iíve been looking for you. Now youíre about to get yourselves killed. Once upon a time on an earlier thread, a poster had questioned why Nasedo would not have been looking near the crash site all along for the podsters. I suggested that Nasedo may have been around since the time of the 300-year-old Buddha, and so his use of "long" was different than Michael's. But someone else (Qfanny?) pointed out that the real Harding was probably dead, and the artifacts would then be his. So, inspired by the above posts, I have a new theory: The Roswell Crash was one of many landings, only one of which would have contained the pods of the leaders. Hence the beepers we see around the globe at the end of Destiny are an alert that the leader is found. So the orb did perhaps call to Max and found him because he was in range. But then, Liz certainly intercepted her share of it. Back to work! P.S. I thought the "Now youíre about to get yourselves killed." line was very well-written and delivered--together with "show time" the only humor in the ep. [Edited by shapeshifter on 09-20-2000 at 12:38 PM] 09-20-2000 01:09 PM ROSWELLMOM Dedicated Fan       Registered: May 2000 Sorry - Double post. What is wrong with the board???? [Edited by ROSWELLMOM on 09-20-2000 at 08:48 PM] 09-20-2000 01:15 PM ROSWELLMOM Dedicated Fan       Registered: May 2000 Sorry - double post! [Edited by ROSWELLMOM on 09-20-2000 at 06:44 PM] 09-20-2000 06:07 PM ROSWELLMOM Dedicated Fan       Registered: May 2000 LSS - you brought up a great point regarding the relationship between Harding/Nasedo and the Podsters. I have always wondered about this. Case in point - when Michael meets up with him in the morgue in WR he says, "I've been looking for you" and Nasedo replies, "Not as long as I've been looking for you". Why was Nasedo looking for them for so long? This leads me to believe that he did not know where their (M/M/I) Pod Chamber was. Okay, supposedly he was involved in the 1947 crash and was captured and then escaped. What was he doing here in the first place? Was he sent here on a "mission" as a protector (which he states he was in Destiny) and his mission was sidetracked when his ship crashed? Or as an evil alien sent here on a "mission" to destroy M/M/I (and any other good aliens) and his mission was sidetracked when his ship crashed? Either way it just doesn't add up. Take Tess for instance - she said that Nasedo was there when she came out of the pod and she had been with him for the last ten years. Well, if she came out of the same Pod Chamber as M/M/I then why would it be so hard to deduce that M/M/I came out early and the most logical place to start looking would be the towns closest in proxmity to the Chamber? This leads me to believe that Tess did not come out of the same chamber as M/M/I and maybe didn't come out of a chamber at all - she may not be what she claims at all! And where exactly have they been for the last ten years and what have they been doing - running from FBI agents??? Here's another question - Pierce said there where four aliens in that crash. Two were dead and two were captured, one escaped. What happened to the one that did not escape? I don't think that was ever revealed. Nasedo says he escaped the base in WR. Could Tess possibly be the fourth alien and her and Nasedo are working together toward some evil plan by gaining the trust of the Podsters? If Tess truly from a pod (I still don't think she is from the same Pod Chamber as M/M/I - I agree with whoever said that there could be multiple Chambers) and is she being mislead by Nasedo too and is unwittling misleading the Podsters? One last thing (I know this is a Sci-Fi thread so I'll make this one short!) In WR when Iz is telling Tess that she is going to dreamwalk to tell Max the plan of escape and she asks Tess what she is going to do and Tess makes Iz see her (Tess) being carried off by an FBI agent, Iz says "That's what you did to Max, isn't it? That's why he had all of those thoughts about you." TESS DOES NOT RESPOND TO THIS!!! She just says, "I can only keep it up for awhile..." With Tess not saying one way or the other this makes me think that Max did not conjur up those thoughts on his own but that they were implanted! Tess made him, and possible made him feel, those things. Interesting? This makes my Dreamgirl heart very happy! 09-20-2000 06:21 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 So, the boards are back. Roswell Mom, the line before your quote is even more pro-dreamer: TESS: "I made you think something was happening right in front of you when it really wasnít." quote: Originally posted by ROSWELLMOM ...Iz says "That's what you did to Max, isn't it? That's why he had all of those thoughts about you." TESS DOES NOT RESPOND TO THIS!!! She just says, "I can only keep it up for awhile..." ... When I saw that again Monday night I really thought the writers had created an answer to Liz's comment in TLV: "LIZ: You know, you still kissed her, Max. I don't know if there'll ever be reason enough to explain that." 09-20-2000 06:46 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 Okay, okay, okay, there's a lot of great stuff going on here. Melodious1, we need to get together sometime or you should post more often. I was in deep discussion with SF on the location of the pod chamber and why it was near Roswell. I proposed that the nuclear tests in the 40's during WWII that was done near Roswell had something to do with this. SF said that the radiation in the area at the time (and possibly today) could act as a cloak for the pod chamber. If you also assume that Harding was on the ship when it crashed, then Harding would have to know why they were in the area in the first place. Scouting for a location for the podsters. There is a logical reason for choosing Roswell as a nest. Protection. Liz's visions in SH does suggest that the crash was an accident. Look at the visual sequence of Liz's visions in SH. First, the "stars", then "red" giant during the touch in science class. Next she says she saw the crash during the easure room session. If the purpose of the close encounter Liz witnesses is to set up the pod chamber, it therefore had to happen after the crash. However, this is a hard pill to swallow, given the extent of the damages and the fact that the aliens had trouble hiding artifacts (orb). But remember, Milton said that there was more than one involved--- (GraceKel can you give me the quote again) If that was the case, then the other ship that did not crash could have set up the pod chamber. Because of the unexpected problem of alerting the Earthlings to themselves, it is highly likely that they threw out bad information to the ship and the four aliens involved with the crashed. Why? In order to protect the podsters! Rescue must not have been an option. So they feed those four aliens false information should someone try to cut it out of them piece by piece. So I do think Harding had been looking for the pod chamber until 1989. But he was hard pressed to find it. It was cloaked under a cloud of radiation and he was a scapegoat to his own kind. Running all over the US tracking down UFO nuts and inflitrating the military might have been the only way he could discover the true location. Of course, UFO nuts are incrediably reliable sources as will tell you and government agencies are probably way to buercratic for Harding to put up with. He went on searching. So how did he find it? Assume the Tictac v Harding theory. If the shapeshifter we refer to as TicTac left the cave painting, and Harding found it, (maybe that's why RD's Nasedo left in a hurry, Harding was on his tail) that would have been all the information he needed. And at the same time find out that RD had those "rocks" From Nebraska Qfanny Season One theories emailmaxcedo@hotmail.com Don't forget to click. This will probably take ten minutes to "stick" with the luck I'm having. 09-20-2000 08:12 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by Qfanny Scouting for a location for the podsters. There is a logical reason for choosing Roswell as a nest. Protection. Liz's visions in SH does suggest that the crash was an accident. I also pondered on whether or not the crash was actually "a crash", rather it was intentional to some degree. I find your radiation theory very intriguing QFanny. We know very little on the events concerning the "crash" in this "Ros" world (Liz's flashes honestly don't tell us very much besides glowering). Anything to possibly suggest Roswell was chosen rather than an accident I find interesting. Making the area (and possibly it's inhabitants - Claudia? Valentis? eventually Liz?) much more important than we realize. Here's something to throw some more flames on the speculating fire... in the *real world* UFO mythos, the alleged crash didn't actually occur near Roswell, but in Corona, New Mexico. According to a friend who dabbles in ufology, she tells me Roswell has the notoreity because it's where the nearest military base was located in the time of the 'crash'. Hence, our favorite show is called "Roswell" and not "Corona". I'm positive this MUST have been brought up before, but I'm rather amused that "Corona" is Spanish for "Crown". So the "beloved leader" actually crashed in 'Crown', New Mexico; possible symbolism here? Or am I ranting? quote: So I do think Harding had been looking for the pod chamber until 1989. But he was hard pressed to find it... So how did he find it? Assume the Tictac v Harding theory. If the shapeshifter we refer to as TicTac left the cave painting, and Harding found it, (maybe that's why RD's Nasedo left in a hurry, Harding was on his tail) that would have been all the information he needed. And at the same time find out that RD had those "rocks" From Nebraska Qfanny Well, one of the speculations of the "they" River Dog refers to in RD is "enemy aliens"... and Harding is still in the running imo to be an EA (or at least in cahoots with them). You have NO idea how much I want to believe Harding is dirty. It's not easy to prove, however, there always seems to be some snag in the theory. Melodious [Edited by Melodious1 on 09-20-2000 at 08:15 PM] 09-20-2000 11:38 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 It's always bothered me that Liz's vision included the crash... from the inside of the ship. How in the world could she have received that vision (or any of the other one's) from Max? She must have either been getting them from an outside source (the orb??? ohhh, the "o" word again! ) , OR, perhaps the essences somehow retained enough awareness to record the event. Is that ever weird, or what? 09-21-2000 09:37 AM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 It's always bothered me that Liz's vision included the crash... from the inside of the ship. How in the world could she have received that vision (or any of the other one's) from Max? She must have either been getting them from an outside source (the orb??? ohhh, the "o" word again! ) , OR, perhaps the essences somehow retained enough awareness to record the event. Is that ever weird, or what? Lorrilei1960 Well--I think we are going to find out the answer to this in the next season, but for now let's just say that there are several ways they could resolve this: 1) EXTERNAL SOURCE. As you mentioned, the orb is a prime candidate. Or one could posit an alien "sending" the images to Liz. Or perhaps there is an as yet unknown mechanism other than the orb--like the "black box" on today's planes that record audio info...perhaps the ship had something that recorded visual data and is mentally "broadcasting" this info. 2) INTERNAL SOURCE. If the source of the is internal then it could be either: a) Liz or Max's actual memories resurfacing indicating that one or the other (or both) were present on the ship [NOTE: this would involve some SF plot element that would explain how this was possilbe...for example, the two dead aliens who went through the crash and "saw" it but did not survive might have been the former Max and/or Liz (IF she is an alien as some would believe). This would involve defining the "conflict" that killed them as one that extended beyond the planetary boundaries of the home planet. Or, b) one could suggest that Max's people have a racial memory that Liz is tapping into via the visions. At this point I am not advocating any of the above theories but simply saying that they represent options the writers might take to explain that vision. LSS 09-21-2000 02:50 PM shellybelly Fan       Registered: Sep 2000 After lurking on these science fiction of [episode] threads for months, I'm finally posting my first reply! I want to thank all of you for such thought-provoking comments. I have really enjoyed reading everything written here. I wanted to comment on the much discussed issue of why Maxedo helped Liz and not Max escape from the Hall of Mirrors. Looking at the sequence of events, Max and Maxedo confront each other and than Max sees Liz and runs down the corridor to her. Max turns around and Maxedo is gone, and seconds later the FBI appears. I think Maxedo knew he could not save Max because he was also in Max form and had no place to go and shapeshift to someone else. If the FBI saw two Maxes, they simply would have captured both of them. I think Maxedo knew he had to escape in case Max was captured so he would be able to rescue him if necessary. He probably hoped Max would escape the hall of mirors on his own, but if not, Maxedo had to be free to plan his rescue. If they both were captured, Maxedo knew rescue for both of them would be unlikely, given his past experience with the FBI . I also think Maxedo took Liz out instead of just saving himself for an important reason. If he hadn't saved Liz, Pierce would have taken her, too. If Max and Liz were both captured and Max was aware of this, he never would have left the base with a rescue squad if they didn't rescue Liz, too. And rescuing one person from the base is extremely difficult, let alone two people who would likely be kept in two different places. I think Maxedo realized this about Max when Max came to the carnival to rescue Liz. I'd love to know what you guys think of this. If this has already been discussed, sorry for the repeat. 09-21-2000 07:05 PM ROSWELLMOM Dedicated Fan       Registered: May 2000 shellybelly - Welcome to the boards! I am not a regular poster to this thread but I lurk at it all the time!!! I think your theory about why Maxedo saved Liz and not Max is very valid! I have often wondered about this myself and have read several different theories about it. I also find it very odd that he kisses Liz again on the bus. In fact, he kissed her a lot and I can't quite figure out why. Some have mentioned that she bears a striking resemblence to Sheila Hubble and there may be some kind of connection there. Did he know she would have visions when she kissed him? Did he want her to have the visions or was he completly unaware? If he did want her to have the visions - what purpose would it serve and why those particular scenes in her vision? Oh so many questions! Hopefully Season 2 will bring more answers to our numerous questions. Only 11 more days! 09-22-2000 06:31 AM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 Hi Shellybelly! We're honored that you have come out of lurkdom and chosen the SF thread for your first post! quote: Originally posted by shellybelly I wanted to comment on the much discussed issue of why Maxedo helped Liz and not Max escape from the Hall of Mirrors....I think Maxedo knew he could not save Max because he was also in Max form and had no place to go and shapeshift to someone else. If the FBI saw two Maxes, they simply would have captured both of them. I think Maxedo knew he had to escape in case Max was captured.... I also think Maxedo took Liz out instead of just saving himself for an important reason. If he hadn't saved Liz, Pierce would have taken her, too. If Max and Liz were both captured and Max was aware of this, he never would have left the base with a rescue squad if they didn't rescue Liz, too. I like the idea of "Maxedo" trying to prevent the FBI glimpsing two Max figures. And you are right about Liz although I do wonder if Maxedo really understands the importance of Liz to Max. In The White Room he downplays Liz's statement that Max will come to rescue her and actually seems surprised that Max shows up (although we the audience are anything but surprised--but then we know Max in a way that Maxedo doesn't!). Also, remember in Destiny's cave that Liz's presence at Max's side is viewed as unwarranted/unwelcomed by the ss. I guess I find your first idea very persuasive (trying to avoid the two being seen at once and escaping so that he could ss and then come back for the rescue). You know, it is interesting that we never see that clown again. And it seems somewhat of a "loose end" that he simply leaves Liz in the bus. But then--maybe she had outlived her usefulness to him by that time. Great suggestion Shellybelly--and again, welcome to the SF of [episode] threads. LSS 09-22-2000 06:39 AM LSS Crazed Fan       Registered: Feb 2000 quote: Originally posted by ROSWELLMOM I also find it very odd that he kisses Liz again on the bus. In fact, he kissed her a lot and I can't quite figure out why. Some have mentioned that she bears a striking resemblence to Sheila Hubble and there may be some kind of connection there. Did he know she would have visions when she kissed him? Did he want her to have the visions or was he completly unaware? If he did want her to have the visions - what purpose would it serve and why those particular scenes in her vision? You know, even Max was unaware at what point Liz received visions from him. Remember at the beginning of ID when she tries to tell him? We have no reason to believe that the ss knew what Max couldn't sense. As for kissing her alot--I got the sense that he truly enjoyed it--but on a purely physical level. It would be helpful if we had any sense of how our aliens in their original form reproduced. It might be that the notion of courtship and foreplay is as "alien" to their process of procreation as "pods" are to ours. Our ss might simply have thought that "when in Rome..." and gone along with what to him might be classified as "alien sexual mores." It is funny to think of the ss getting off on alien sex but I guess that is one way of looking at it! LSS 09-22-2000 06:53 AM lilyidt Fan       Registered: Sep 2000 OK I did not read all of the posts but here is some thought on some of it: 1. The handprint thing, well if we look at the M2M epi, the handprint is created from extreme heat being generated. Like in healing or killing. So I think the only way it links the ss and the podsquad is that in the human form when extreme heat is generated the handprint forms. So isn't it just a human body causes this reaction when under these circumstances, not is this a deeper connection. As in does this connection mean that the poddies can ss?? An the whole destiny/fate thing well I am thinking that the pods were supposed to be opened after the crash, not 40 some odd years later. The reason I think they stayed was b/c the adults were captured, right??So I think that this action changed their destinies, giving way to the theory that ones destiny can be altered by actions thrown into the mix. I think in reality that this is the whole underlying theme then (Destiny) and this shows us how things could have been so different (NO LIZ) and that if they had emerged when planned they would have concluded their mission already, boring huh?? I deffinately think that the poddies control their own destiny therefore, and that this will be a major issue, Max trying to accept his alien side and mission, while trying to suppress his uncontrollable push toeard Liz. Lily 09-22-2000 10:13 AM shellybelly Fan       Registered: Sep 2000 Hi LSS, I do agree that, initially, Maxedo did not understand the bond between Max and Liz. Though, I think that changed when Max actually showed up. Maxedo not only heard Max tell him he would not leave without Liz but also saw Max run to Liz as soon as Max saw her. Maxedo never in a million years would have run after someone if his life was in danger, and he was truly shocked when Max did just that. Like Tess said, Maxedo does not have a human side at all, and I think this prevented him from realizing the flaw in his own plan. I think that's when Maxedo realized he needed to save Liz for the reasons I mentioned in my earlier post. I should add a caveat to the above. While I think Maxedo realized Liz's importance to Max when Max showed up, I don't think he could ever truly understand it. Nacedo tells Michael in WR that emotions are a weakness. He just does not comprehend the kind of bond between Max and Liz. I think that explains his reaction to Liz's presence in the cave in Destiny. Max and Liz's relationship is irrelevant in Nacedo's mind. All that matters is his job of protecting the podsters destinies, nothing more. Roswellmom, the kiss thing in the bus bothered me, too, but I think LSS is right. Liz initiated that kiss, thinking it was Max, and Maxedo certainly did not stop her. I guess the expression boys will be boys doesn't just apply to the human race! 09-22-2000 11:56 AM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 shellybelly, if Liz had been captured, Pierce would have been able to threaten the real Liz instead of the virtual Liz to get Max to comply. This would have ultimately revealed that Max didn't know how to work the orbs...or maybe he would have figured out in a hurry how to make them work. So, perhaps Maxcedo figured out in a hurry (after Max showed up to rescue Liz) what would happen if Liz was captured. But I'm still puzzling over Harding's remark that Liz "shouldn't be here" in the cave in Destiny. Maybe I'm looking for something deeper than what's there. [Edited by shapeshifter on 09-22-2000 at 01:11 PM] 09-22-2000 12:13 PM *Maria* Crazed Fan       Registered: May 2000 I want to discuss a point I have been wondering about since the first airing of The White Room.... But I'm going to wait until I can phrase it intelligently. I've read this thread so far and I don't want to sound stupid. This is the first time I've been on this thread, so I'm a bit intimidated. 09-22-2000 01:55 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 *Maria*, Go for it. You can always edit later. GraceKel is always having to ask me to explain my partial thoughts. 09-22-2000 02:06 PM Nemo Addicted Fan       Registered: Dec 1999 quote: originally posted by Reggie, on The Science Fiction of the Toy House ...I think that the orbs are universal remote controls: they started the tape with the mom-o-gram, and set off the beacon...they might also set off other alien devices (as needed).... This picture from MttM seems to reinforce that idea. (Although I also like LSS's idea that the orbs may also be recorders, as on the space journey. The two ideas fit together naturally enough.) A difficulty some see in the idea of the Momogram as a playback: sometimes Mom seems to turn toward one listener at a time; how could she have known where they would be standing? But we need not assume the recording is as simple as a videotape. Just as the orbs seem to "know" when everyone is present (symbolized by the four buttons within the oval in the picture?), possibly the orbs also know where each one is standing, and reconstruct the presentation accordingly. 09-22-2000 03:51 PM Palomino Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 nasEDo taking Liz out of the house of mirrors instead of Max. First, I think Harding finally realized when Max showed up, that he really did love Liz and was willing to risk his life for her. If Liz wasn't out of danger, then Max was not going to get out of danger either, so to get Max out of there, he had to first get Liz out. Second, of the two, Liz was less likely to be able to defend herself and escape. He was surprized in WR that the podsters couldn't do more, so at the carnival he might have expected Max to be more polished on his powers, and able to handle a couple of FBI. I don't think Harding particulary liked Liz, had any respect for her, or thought she was "special". In fact, I don't think he was very repectful of Max to kidnap his girlfriend, let Max know it (Max's phone call to Liz), then get fresh with her as well as threaten her. Hardling the way to treat your leader's girlfriend, even if he assumed it was just a high school fling, despite the way Max was obviously concerned for her at the Harding home(T,L&VT). I know he's an alien and his thought processes might be different, but is to the point of bungling, and ruining the master Plan. If Harding was flying the ship, I'm not surprised it crashed. 09-22-2000 04:18 PM Starstruck Dedicated Fan       Registered: May 2000 Hi everybody About the "I've been looking for you", "Not as long as I've been looking for you" dilema. What if Harding was not in the crash but arrived later when word of the crash hit the home planet. I know Harding says he knows Eagle Rock Military base intimatly, that he's escaped it once, but he could have been captured at a different time. We don't know who all the special unit has dragged in there through the years. I'm convinced the pod chamber had to have been constructed prior to the crash. It just looks to intricate to have been thrown together hastily so as not to be discovered. If the home planet believed their caretakers (shape shifters) of the brewing podsters had perished thay could have sent Harding and others as replacements. Perhaps there are other pod chambers sprinkled around the country and their are other SS's protecting them. That could explain away the geographic distance between silver handprint killings. Starstruck 09-22-2000 04:21 PM jenlev Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 hi there, palomino: i think that nasedo's license to drive a spaceship was probably revoked ages ago! can't you just see the intergalactic version of valenti pulling nasedo's spaceship over somewhere near the crab nebula? "i'd like to see your license and registration buddy!" anyway; the inconsistancy of nasedo's behavior speaks to the damage that was done to him during his captivity? and also the damage that was done to him due to the war on the home planet? the fact that the shapeshifters on the alien planet decided to utilize human dna suggests that somewhere, someone had some respect for the humans and earth. and according to the 'dread-momogram' some effort has gone into trying to give earth a better chance against the 'evil-aliens'. so this deliniates even further the fact that nasedo is not operating on a fully integrated dilithium crystal. jenlev 09-22-2000 11:21 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 jenlev I do agree that Edsedo's lithium crystal is a bit cracked... maybe beyond repair. About the kissing thing... Maxcedo does comment that he enjoys being Max, being 17 (and full of the requisite raging hormones ???? ). Perhaps he does like to get into his role's a little too much, or perhaps there are some residual side effects... such as tapping into the...um... "originals" feelings, as well as their form. As someone who works with teenagers, my vote is for the raging hormones! 09-23-2000 12:53 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan       Registered: May 2000 QFanny, and others: One of the points I like best about the show is that they seem to be *affirming* that one *should* follow one's instincts, one's inner "still, small voice" - - to couch this in "Sunday School" terms, as you were. The recurring dialog: How did you know to do that? I don't know, I just knew. For instance, in the episodes you mentioned, there were other consequences than the immediate ones: ***Pilot: Max instinctively heals (does it without thinking) Liz Parker and starts the whole Roswell storyline. *** But in the process, he breaks out of a long confinement of secrecy (This secret can't go on, Michael; and I don't *want* it to!), and finally takes the big risk he's "wanted to ... a thousand times": he comes out from behind the tree, and reveals himself to the girl he's always loved. And is rewarded by love and connection that, as he says in Destiny, made him human. I think this will turn out to be very important. And by this instinctive act, Max starts learning how to handle himself in dangerous situations, he finds others like himself, and gets put back on course toward discovering himself and the meaning of his existence. ***River Dog: Max uses his powers to produce light to instinctively protect Liz, thus exposing his alien nature. *** Yes, he exposes the truth to the very *one* person to whom it would be totally safe to do so, he qualifies as a "visitor" and so receives a message that was left just for the podsters. ***Max to the Max: Max instinctively searches for Liz, and does get into a very real life threatening situation. *** A situation which was inevitable, even if only because he had feared it all along, and would *have* to face it sooner or later, just to free himself from that fear. And the outcome of that was that Nacedo replaces Pierce and makes them safe; Max starts to stand on his own two feet and make decisive plans (We're taking our lives back! We may be stronger than Pierce thinks!). *** Sexual Healing shows us how Max and Liz struggle to hold onto rationalism. They may instinctively want to "be together" and "it feels right", but they know that there could be very serious unforseen consequences. *** Funny, finding out the answer by just doing something is usually Michael's move, isn't it? And I never seem to hear anyone disparaging the way he always finds out by just rushing in where angels fear to tread. ***Not to mention the fact [Liz] is acting out of character. She has never been in trouble with her parents before. *** No, and it's about damned time, for both of them! Throughout the early part of the season, I was getting tired of both Max & Liz letting everyone tell them who to be and what to do - - never even *speaking* up for themselves. Wussies! Adolescence is exactly the time one is supposed to discover all the ways one is different from one's parents, and M&L have always been too good to even start looking! They're not middle aged, they're teenagers! So, as Liz tells Maria, she's *not* acting out of character. Maria tells her, "Liz, this isn't you!" and Liz *finally* says, "Yes, Maria this IS me!" Maria was "the one who first took the plunge!", so it's a little bit of the pot calling the kettle black! Not to mention sour grapes: it's obvious from the way Maria always interrogates Liz about her every move with Max, that she *envies* Liz (AND the flashes and the hickies!) - - later, when Liz gets flowers supposedly from Max, Maria insists on reading the personal lovenote: "Let me see what I'm missing!" (And earlier: "Go ahead! Live the life I so desperately want.) Maria is *always* trying to control Liz and define every situation for her - - the best example was when she tried to give Liz "Grief Relief" drops, and Liz asks, "What is it?" Maria simply says, "Never mind. Just open your mouth." So, sorry for the rambling but it's late, but my point is that yes, their "instinctive" actions often get the Roswellians into hot water, and make them do things they've never done before; but I think that's the very definition of growing, and essential to growing up, whether one is human or alien. So the point that's being made in the show may just be that inner knowing is the best source of guidance there is (as when Michael succeeds in changing his fingerprint). At the start of the season, the aliens existed in limbo, a half-life of lies, evasions, deceptions; now they have friends who know their truth, and they have learned more about who they are and what is their purpose - - and they've learned to handle themselves and trust their inner wisdom. Puts them way ahead of most teens, or most adults, for that matter! [Edited by Michelle in Yonkers on 09-23-2000 at 01:00 AM] 09-23-2000 02:59 AM Michelle in Yonkers Dedicated Fan       Registered: May 2000 Sorry for responding to the entire thread at once, but I've had the danged'est time getting on the boards lately! Enjoying *hugely* all the posts - - Palomino, Melodious, newbie - - can't recall all. I want to respond to as many points as I can in case I can't get here again. 1) Maxcedo as Bungler. He does seem to achieve exactly the opposite of his stated goals most of the time. Killing with a handprint? Hasn't he heard of illegal handguns? Equally effective, not traceable to aliens. *Unless* he's an Evil Alien, and wants to keep the Special Unit federally funded in order to find podsters; each handprint murder probably brings in years of funding. 2) You'd think the genetic engineers would have made some identifying trait, so good aliens could recognize each other? They're so skilled that they can engineer the podsters' recognition of the galaxy symbol... yet Ed took so long to find them, even knowing that they hatched in Roswell; another argument that Ed is an EA? 3) It's tradition that an enemy dishonors the opposing leader's woman. And he does seem to envy Max, so maybe he wants to try out Max's woman - - to find out what it's like "to be him! to be 17!" 4) It's an old Star Trek staple that once aliens take human form, they just can't help getting swept away by our procreative mystique - - that taking human form brings a host of other factors along with it. Edsedo acts like someone who has learned human as a second language (Ex.: his flawless, but stilted talk w. Valenti about the camera), so even though he hasn't mastered the emotions behind sex (love), it doesn't surprise me that he wants to do it ó and find out what it would be like to have someone look at him with a facial expression other than horror 5) the effect of his supposed strategy to kill Pierce was to lure all the podsters to one place, and to get Max caught. He then rescues Max, but what if he *wanted* him captured so a) he could earn their trust by the rescue, and b) the EAs succeed in planting both orbs on the podsters now, so they'll have an opportunity to watch what they do with them? 6) Mommygram knowing where to look as she addressed each one: it could be Tess. If she's planting the images, then it's something she might mistakenly do. But the engineers did know what the podsters would look like, so if they could program a hologram, they could program the hologenerator to point her at the one she's addressing? 7) "Not as long as I've been looking for you!" Like, since the crash, since before they hatched. I don't think he nec. knows exactly how long Michael's been looking. 8) Something strange about the WR plot: Pierce puts Max under the terrible time pressure to make the orbs work. But just before that, when Max tried to kill Pierce, he informed Max that they had injected him with a serum to BLOCK Max's abilities. If they've blocked Max's abilities, how the heck is he supposed to use them to work the orbs? Maybe the torture *was* the point and he could mortally hurt Max to force him to heal and reveal his regenerative powers (but again, not if they've been blocked). 9) When Tess shows Iz what she's going to do for the plan, I thought it was interesting that the FBI agent she conjured was an *actual* FBI guy, one whom *we* saw in the House of Mirrors - - but Tess did not. She says she's been running all her life, she may have even glimpsed him on the highway from the Jeep (I'll have to check this), but I still thought it was strange it was an actual guy - - unless she is *very* familiar with the FBI guys from collusion. We still haven't heard an explanation of the M16 rifle guy (& Co.) on her doorstep. 10) One of the things that makes WR so upsetting to watch, is that the torture stuff wasn't well-handled. Sci-fi usually explores ideas, frequently the idea of what it means to be human. Logically then, WR should have explored, at least, the question, "What makes someone like Pierce tick?" Since WR didn't seem to address that (only perfunctorily), I was hoping it meant that Pierce *isn't* human. Max does say "Who's inhuman now?", but we still don't see what could make a Pierce, someone who could not only vivisect an alien "monster", but one of his own kind (Agent Stevens). Unless Pierce *isn't* human. I know this is just spitting into the wind, and all inconsistencies are probably just that - - bloopers, or Blue Mikes, we should call them - - but they're still food for thought. No answers here, just another "AAaaaaarrrggghhhh!" Apologies for length, but I only get to post about once a week, so you got it! You've been fantastic company! [Edited by Michelle in Yonkers on 09-23-2000 at 03:10 AM] 09-23-2000 05:30 AM Palomino Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Michelle in Yonkers : Good points. I agree that Pierce is an evil alien; I have thought so for months(see old posts), and I am hoping this will come out in the new season. I posted somewhere, but I'm not sure what thread, that maybe Harding wanted to have Max caught and tortured, not because he was the enemy, but because Max may have needed the experience to become the person they need him to be. After "Destiny", when he was rescued, Max didn't want to run and hide, and circumstances no longer let him be "passive" as Isabel had put it. He needed to become the leader that would fight back, and take control of the situation, before things got too bad. It seems that the capture and torture of Max triggered his active leadership, which may have come about too slowly, or not at all, otherwise. Harding may have gotten the Max he needed, but at what cost to Max? He may function outwardly as leader second season, but inwardly, how much damage was done to Max's psychological health, and did the SSers take this into account? Will Post Traumatic Stress caused by the capture/torture eventually surface in the public Max that has to be leader? 09-23-2000 03:58 PM Qfanny Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 Michelle: In regards to your post on programming v volition and instincts, here are my concerns. Yes, there is an element of follow your heart, but I think even Max would agree this leds to trouble. Maybe not all the time, but often and serious enough that makes the podster consider leaving Roswell. In Destiny, Max specifically says, "We are not going to panic. We're going to think things through." This is one example where the podsters exercise free will. They want to take control (at last) of their situation, instead of playing turtle. If they had followed their instincts to either, take off for unknown parts of the USA or hang out in the pod chamber, do you really think that something better would have came from this? Second, I disagree that following your instincts allows you to grow up. In fact, there was a paragraph that I did not post that illistrated my point. When you were born, you had an instinct to suckle. No one taught you how to do this, it was something you just knew how to do. As you grew up though, you taught not to do this anymore. Why? Because you were a grown person and had control over your muscles and mind. You were able to make decisions about how you would act. At a certain point, in order for the podsters to advance, they will also have to abandon their instincts. I am not sure if your post stated that you thought instincts to be more important than individual volition, but it was, I must disagree. I cannot think of any reason why programming would outweigh individualism. I sort was left with the idea that the podsters cannot avoid the "grand plan" from your post. I think they can if they choose too. I just don't think that programming reduces the podster's status as human. From Nebraska Qfanny I really enjoyed reading your post. 09-23-2000 06:22 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Once again, I have a few more qualms about WR. However, they probably only show how nitpicky I'm being with the ep. They could be nothing. I've seen WR a couple 100 times, I'm probably looking for anything I might have missed (so I'm probably being paranoid). Am I the only one that thought Pierce and Edsedo had the same watch on. Granted, the only watch we got a clear view of was Pierce's (when he held it up to Max with the VR headset on). Harding formulated the "Rescue Max" plan he told everyone to "set their watches" (1st view of Harding watch, very brief). The second view was in the morgue, just after Michael's failed attempt at 'changing' his fingerprint (Ed had taken his watch off and set it on the corpse's mouth [eww]). Granted, even if the watches WERE exactly the same, it still could mean nothing. Harding might have taken a souveneir off one of the many agents he's killed (my dad received a watch after working in the post office for 10 years, It wouldn't surprise me if there was some similar fringe benefit in the FBI). Or, Harding himself worked for the gov't (for however long), so he might have received a (possible) gov't watch that way (btw, was there ever a *real* Ed Harding? If so, and Edsedo killed him, is *anyone* looking for him?). Or, Pierce and Harding just might have similar taste in accessories. It *does* prove I've seen WR one too many times!! One last WR comment, when Michael attacked Fedsedo he made A LOT of commotion... and NO ONE heard it?? I noticed the Eagle Rock security was grossly lax all around (for some supersecret, 'ET-was-dissected-here-and-we've-got-one-in-custody' military base), but was the morgue so sound proof and separated from the other Feds in Eagle Rock that no one came running? Perhaps I'm just overestimating the loudness and duration of Michael's attack. For a few seconds though, it seemed like an earthquake in there (tables shaking & rattling, stuff falling everywhere, lights flashing, doors swinging)... although, what do I know about earthquakes... I live in Nebraska! Melodious 09-23-2000 06:28 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 double post [Edited by Melodious1 on 09-23-2000 at 11:32 PM] 09-23-2000 06:33 PM Melodious1 Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 triple post (isn't posting fun boys and girls?!) ::clicking banners like a mad woman:: [Edited by Melodious1 on 09-23-2000 at 11:33 PM] 09-23-2000 10:15 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 quote: Originally posted by Michelle in Yonkers ...6) Mommygram knowing where to look as she addressed each one: it could be Tess. If she's planting the images, then it's something she might mistakenly do. But the engineers did know what the podsters would look like, so if they could program a hologram, they could program the hologenerator to point her at the one she's addressing? ... Michelle, on behalf of Maxcedo, I would like to ask your permission to use this quote over on the Archive Site at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell. You can send Maxcedo an email at maxcedo@hotmail.com or I will check back here. Thanks. [Edited by shapeshifter on 09-24-2000 at 12:15 AM] 09-23-2000 11:45 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 re the Podsters headlong, impulsive actions... They're teenagers! Teenagers often act without considering the consequences... and if the consequences in the long run turn out to be positive, we just thank our lucky stars that they survived in tact. IOW... even alien teenagers have the tendency to act rashly, and learning not to jump into situations without considering the outcome is part of growing up. They are all on the verge of adult-hood, and I suspect that they will learn the art of consideration... but may still lapse (don't we all?) Oh, and yes, Michael is often taken to task for his impulsive actions, especially by Max. 09-24-2000 04:57 AM Palomino Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Melodious1 : About security at the base. 1. This would have been a huge base. The secret unit was not that big. To protect the whole thing would have either spread them too thin for safety, or it would have required bringing in extra men - again unsafe. 2. From what was said, and it was sparse, I gathered that they had only taken over the hospital wing, and the hand scanners were the only way in. Agents patrolled beyond the hand scanners like scouts, but the majority of the men were inside the wing. The morgue was outside of the hand scanner, because who was going to steal the body of a dead FBI agent? 3. The FBI apparently did not know the podsters were able to communicate telepathically. Isabel was very unsure of her ability to contact Max, and he did not know where he was, Isabel had to figure it out. The FBI were not counting on anybody knowing where they were, except maybe nasEDo if he guessed, but the hand scanners would have kept him out. 4. They were not expecting the podsquad to make a rescue attempt, and at this point, they thought the podsters would have alien bone structure and not be able to get through the scanners. In hindsight, they would see their errors, but at the time, they must have thought their security was adequate. Michael's commotion with Harding was well outside the range of the hospital wing. Only a scout would have heard it, and as we saw, he was not anywhere near at the time. They passed him after they left the morgue. [Edited by Palomino on 09-24-2000 at 05:04 AM] 09-24-2000 05:15 AM jenlev Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 hi there, palomino: what you say makes very good sense. it also speaks to the historical arrogance of the entire fbi which has been famous for making grand assumptions about their superiority and therefor missing the boat on many occaisons. just as nasedo presents with arrogance so does the special unit. perhaps given their fear of the aliens that arrogance was actually a defense mechanism in response to their fear and uncertanty? regarding the capture and torture of max being a way for nasedo to bring his leadership role to the surface: that kind of experience would most likely intensify personality traits, defenses and responses that were already present? although the victim/survivor might react/respond to feeling cornered by taking a stand, the trauma itself would not serve to implement nasedo's wish (whatever his motivation and agenda was) and given the charactor's experience i would be astonished if he was portrayed as unscathed- either in his public or private life. also, the lay-low and stay camofloged method of leadership brings to mind thoreau's comment "discretion is the beter part of valor". jenlev 09-24-2000 08:18 AM GraceKel Crazed Fan       Registered: Dec 1999 Hi everyone been enjoying reading all your posts and ideas, very thought provoking indeed. ROSTER your idea that M/M/I were actually damaged and only T being the original type was a very interesting scenario indeed. QFanny the text you are talking about from Monsters goes something like--Milton said,"But on the fateful night, sometime after midnight, after all the fireworks had gone off and all the apple pie had been eaten, something went terribly wrong, and it is believed that a space craft, and some say MORE THAN ONE......" Was that the text you are referring to? I put in on Liz Imprt thread cuz I couldn't get over here b4 finally the boards working. QFANNY I agree with you about not acting impulsively and thinking things through, this is why Max is the leader and Michael is not I believe. When GC tells Liz to FOLLOW HER HEART I believe that is because she has more information on THEIR relationship than they do at that given time. Guys I still think AGENT SAMUELS the one who looked up at the BAT SIGNAL (and at first glance seems to scream EVIL ALIEN) is really an ALIEN that was there looking out for them that whole scenario with Michael "BEALS RIGHT, YOU PICKED A HELL OF A TIME TO SHOW UP" Yes just in time to save Max and then I also noticed that MAXEDO/MATHESON the black agent gives this guy SAMUELS a very LONG STARE. Also in DESTINY eppy when Max comes to Kyles and gives Samuels a punch, Kyle says "what are you doing, he's FBI" and Max says "HE's NOT WHO YOU THINK HE IS!" I thought this might be a clue to the audience that he is an alien but not working against them maybe watching out for them. I could be wrong but this is just my take on it. 09-24-2000 08:41 AM Palomino Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 Jenlev : I agree with you that the torture and interrogation would have adverse affects on Max, but what if the SSers don't realize that? What if one that is 100% SSer would have the desired reaction, by a hybrid would have human reactions and actually be damaged by it? These are alot of ifs. If Harding led him to Pierce with the intention of being tortured, etc. I think it's important to realize that max gave away nothing till Liz was threatened. He endured quite a bit and did not give in to save himself. I think this surprised Max himself, by what he said in "Destiny" about being stronger than even they realized. 09-24-2000 03:08 PM jenlev Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 hi there, palomino: well if a 100% shapeshifter would respond positively to that kind of treatment what does that tell us about the alien planet's culture? i know we haven't really been told much; but i would expect that kind of functioning from the 'evil-aliens' more then i would from the oppressed shapeshifters? although history is full of societies that had seemingly cruel rites of transitions for rulers, shaman, and plain old folk. if they were desperate enough to consign the podsters to their 'destiny' plan perhaps they also might be willing to do anything to get the podsters to toe the line regarding such a plan? i'm just speculating. i tend to believe that the whole capture by the fbi was representative of nasedo's incompitence, desperation, and damage he'd experienced by being exiled on earth after escaping the oppressed planet. anyway, i'm really just pondering at this point as i'm expecting that in season 2 some things will be clarified; and others will be further mystified! and everyone has pretty much convinced me that we are going to find out some very interesting truths about pierce! jenlev 09-24-2000 03:24 PM Reggie Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 quote: Originally posted by Lone Eagle As far as the aliens growing into the ability to shapeshift. They may be able to do so, but not to the same extent as Nasedo. Because they possess human skeletal structures(dense bone), they cannot change into other people. However, they should be able to change their outward appearance(hair or eye color, fingerprints) the same way they alter molecular structures now. They might be able to change their features, but under their skin would still be an unaltered skeleton. That's all I've got for now. Tell me what you all think. Lone Eagle Exactly! There are some things which can't be manipulated, like the FBI door lock, or podsters' and humans' bones. Shapeshifters' bones, flesh in general, and catsup/mustard seem to be manupulable. The podsters can't fully shapeshift, because of their bones. We've seen Max and Michael manipulate flesh, to heal and to re-shape it. Well put! 09-24-2000 11:12 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by jenlev hi there, palomino: well if a 100% shapeshifter would respond positively to that kind of treatment what does that tell us about the alien planet's culture? i know we haven't really been told much; but i would expect that kind of functioning from the 'evil-aliens' more then i would from the oppressed shapeshifters? although history is full of societies that had seemingly cruel rites of transitions for rulers, shaman, and plain old folk. Native Americans who devised ritualistic torture to produce a hallucinatory state conducive to receiving visions comes to mind.... however... quote: if they were desperate enough to consign the podsters to their 'destiny' plan perhaps they also might be willing to do anything to get the podsters to toe the line regarding such a plan? i'm just speculating. i tend to believe that the whole capture by the fbi was representative of nasedo's incompitence, desperation, and damage he'd experienced by being exiled on earth after escaping the oppressed planet. jenlev I have to agree with jenlev's take on the situation. 09-24-2000 11:23 PM shapeshifter Addicted Fan       Registered: May 2000 quote: Originally posted by Palomino ... 3. The FBI apparently did not know the podsters were able to communicate telepathically. ... Hmmm....and remember when Tess was surprised about this ability? And how she was sooo familiar with the timing of the guards' patrol? Sounds Fishy. 09-24-2000 11:31 PM Lorrilei1960 Addicted Fan       Registered: Jun 2000 quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter quote: Originally posted by Palomino ... 3. The FBI apparently did not know the podsters were able to communicate telepathically. ... Hmmm....and remember when Tess was surprised about this ability? And how she was sooo familiar with the timing of the guards' patrol? Sounds Fishy. I agree... something's rotten in Roswell! She said she just knew, because she was used to dodging guards and all that... but how would she know how THESE particular guys patrolled???? Nope... I don't buy it. 09-25-2000 04:18 AM GraceKel Crazed Fan       Registered: Dec 1999 That line about the guards patrolling always bothered me too, I always wondered was she the one held in captivity for 3 years while Harding escaped OR is she working with someone on the inside somehow? What a puzzle!!!! 09-25-2000 08:37 AM bkwrm79-Stargazer Dedicated Fan       Registered: Jul 2000 There is definitely something odd (Fishy lol) about Tess' knowledge. The innocent explanation of learning patrol patterns from past encounters just doesn't make sense- wouldn't the FBI change its routines every now and then? On its own, I would find the weak explanation of experience with the FBi acceptable, but when combined with all the other things that indicate Tess can't be trusted the evidence of collusion with the FBI becomes too strong to be ignored. Another possible explanation is that Nacedo has a contact with the Special Unit feeding him this kind of information (which he shares with Tess). He doesn't want the Podsters to know, because he deliberately got Max captured, and if the Podsters knew he had information coming from the SU they would know he could have prevented the FBI from seizing Max.