Roswell - The Science Fiction of River Dog LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 07:40 AM River Dog is the conclusion of the two-part series begun last week with "285 South". It contains at least four elements that remain intriguing even from our post-Destiny viewpoint: 1) RIVER DOG. We are introduced to River Dog in this episode and find out that he (and his tribe) befriended an alien whom they called "Nesedo". We also learn that River Dog thinks Nesedo killed Atherton although he admits he was too far away to see any details. When we combine the information we glean from this episode with that we find in Balance and Into the Woods (the two other episodes that develop River Dog's characterization) we come up with some interesting questions: a) What was the nature of Nesedo's relationship with the young (?) River Dog? And is this Nesedo the same alien we later know as Mr. Harding and whom people call Nesedo? [And WHY was Atherton killed?] b) Why does River Dog NOT feel drawn to Max, but instead seems to gravitate toward Michael? [NOTE: River Dog says Max cannot come back; later River Dog will approach Michael NOT Max about the sighting and be put off when he sees Max and Isabel at the symbol.] c) Why does the native american saleswoman warn Liz about River Dog? And what is River Dog listening for (or frightened of) when he confronts Liz by her car? 2) THE TEST. What exactly was the test? If Liz had returned without Max (like she was supposed to do) would she have been submitted to it? Was it simply to bring light to darkness? [NOTE: The mythic significance of that BTW is mind-boggling!] 3) THE ENEMIES AND THE MESSAGE. Was Max correct in saying that the message might be a warning? And who were the beings that Nesedo was frightened of? Were they FBI agents? Or the shape-shifting "bad" aliens that promise to be our teens nemesis this Fall? 4) ALIEN MEMORIES. What might be significant from our post-Destiny POV is the fact that all three teens "recognized" the symbol on the pendant. And--later in the cave--Max "recognizes" the writing (though he can't quite "remember" how to read it). The implication of this is that he is remembering what he knew in his "so-called previous life". Later episodes will repeat this theme (Michael in SH for example). What if...our teens begin "remembering" other things? And, now that we mention it, why HAVEN'T they remembered other things? And, now that we think about it...how is it that they DO remember anything? Does this alien essence contain memory? And, gosh, will the awakening of our teens' biological drives (that we saw at the season's end) be accompanied next Fall by an awakening of long shut off memories? If so, then the sky is the limit to where they could take this next season. Well folks...what do YOU think? LSS ******************************************* P.S. Sorry for this not being up last night after the show, but my home computer has crashed!!! [Edited by LSS on 06-20-2000 at 08:57 AM] LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 07:51 AM Oh--one last question: What is the significance of Eddie? Is he River Dog's apprentice? Son? Did he seem a tad defensive/antagonistic when it came to Max? Later, in Balance, did you think he treated Michael the same way...or was he friendlier? Camryn   --Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 1122    -- 06-20-2000 08:27 AM Originally posted by LSS a) What was the nature of Nesedo's relationship with the young (?) River Dog? And is this Nesedo the same alien we later know as Mr. Harding and whom people call Nesedo? [And WHY was Atherton killed?] It seems as though Mr. Harding is the alien that escaped from the White Room all those years ago. My guess is that he was looking for a place to recouperate and hide from recapture. The reservation was probably ideal at the time. Nasedo probably tried to live human so as not to draw any undue attention to himself. Atherton might have figured it out, and caused Nasedo to revert to his human hating ways. b) Why does Nesedo NOT feel drawn to Max, but instead seems to gravitate toward Michael? [NOTE: Nesedo says Max cannot come back; later Nesedo will approach Michael NOT Max about the sighting and be put off when he sees Max and Isabel at the symbol.] Do you mean Riverdog? I thought that it was interesting the way he bonded with Michael. I think that Riverdog might see a little of himself in Michael. From the way Riverdog tells it, he was the wild and impetuous one in his youth - always searching for more than was offered him. c) Why does the native american saleswoman warn Liz about River Dog? And what is River Dog listening for (or frightened of) when he confronts Liz by her car? I think that the sales woman thinks that Riverdog is mad and doesn't want anyone encouraging his alien talk. And that Riverdog, upon recognizing the symbol, was listening to see if Liz was followed or if someone was with her waiting to attack. Remember, in his eyes, the symbol means death. THE TEST. What exactly was the test? If Liz had returned without Max (like she was supposed to do) would she have been submitted to it? Was it simply to bring light to darkness? [NOTE: The mythic significance of that BTW is mind-boggling!] I think that Liz was assumed to be one of the Pod Squad and that the test was simply to force them to display thier powers. If Liz had come alone, she would have failed the test and she wouldn't have been shown anything. Lala79 Level 1 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 20    -- 06-20-2000 08:35 AM I have mostly questions to throw into the fire. Here are a few: Why does Riverdog tell Max and Liz not to come back and that he can't give them anymore info, but later he brings out these healing stones. Did he momentarily forget about them? Was he hiding them? Oh and I'm thinking that Riverdog's Nasedo and Harding have to be one and the same because Tess also calls him (harding) Nasedo. Why would you Nasedo write messages on a wall in a cave? Why didn't he mention it when he returned? What did the message mean? Why was it no longer safe for him at the reservation? Was the FBI on to him or was it the "evil aliens"? Riverdog said that he befriended Nasedo but he seemed to no little to nothing about him. Or was he just holding out on Max and Liz. and How was Atherton's necklace broken? How did Riverdog end up with just that small piece? And Nasedo has always acted very strangely when it's come to Max and Michael. He seemed to immediately recongize Michael, yet he is practically stalking Max and taking dozens of pictures of him. And once again I ask Why did Nasedo have a heart attack when Tess brought Isabel over to the house? He clearly did want Isabel there? But he seemed eager to keep Liz in the house. And why did he feel the need to kidnap Liz in order to draw agent pierce out. He could have went on the killing rampage w/o her. I don't know these are just some things that I ask myself. Hopefully ya'll will have some insight. lala LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 09:07 AM quote: Originally posted by Camryn Originally posted by LSS a) What was the nature of Nesedo's relationship with the young (?) River Dog? And is this Nesedo the same alien we later know as Mr. Harding and whom people call Nesedo? [And WHY was Atherton killed?] It seems as though Mr. Harding is the alien that escaped from the White Room all those years ago. My guess is that he was looking for a place to recouperate and hide from recapture. The reservation was probably ideal at the time. Nasedo probably tried to live human so as not to draw any undue attention to himself. Atherton might have figured it out, and caused Nasedo to revert to his human hating ways.[/B /quote] ****************************************** Good. But granted that Nesedo went to the reservation for refuge...why would he be taken in? And why would he flee from one set of human strangers to another? Is there more to the native american connection in this story than meets the eye? Remember, Grandma Claudia also worked in this field. Why were we told that? ********************************************* ]b) Why does Nesedo NOT feel drawn to Max, but instead seems to gravitate toward Michael? [NOTE: Nesedo says Max cannot come back; later Nesedo will approach Michael NOT Max about the sighting and be put off when he sees Max and Isabel at the symbol.] Do you mean Riverdog? I thought that it was interesting the way he bonded with Michael. I think that Riverdog might see a little of himself in Michael. From the way Riverdog tells it, he was the wild and impetuous one in his youth - always searching for more than was offered him.[/B /quote] ******************************************* Opps! Thanks for the correction (I went back and edited the original). Hmmm--so River Dog was a bit of a "wild" dog in his youth like Michael--interesting way to look at it! LSS [Edited by LSS on 06-20-2000 at 09:12 AM] Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-20-2000 09:11 AM Lss: Wow! So many good questions to think about. Here are some guesses as to what some of the answers might be to the first: a) What was the nature of Nesedo's relationship with the young (?) River Dog? It seems like a strange backwards twist on the Max/Liz story: Nesedo was living anonymously amid this community, when the sweat causes his biological systems to start shutting down. He is forced to open up and trust the young Riverdog in order to save his own life. And is this Nesedo the same alien we later know as Mr. Harding and whom people call Nesedo? This one, I think, is still very much up for grabs-but right now I think I am leaning towards those folks who advocate a two Nesedo theory. Its been discussed at length elsewhere, but let me throw in some intriguing (at least to me!) ideas (and I apologize if I'm ripping someone else off - there is so much content on these boards, its hard to keep up with it all). So, if we assume that the crew of the spacecraft that crashed in '47 were actually the team meant to carry out the task of rearing and protecting the podsters till they were ready to mount the counteroffensive, then it would not be a bad guess that two of the crew were to pose as Max and Isabel's parents, and the others as Michael and Tess's parents. Now we are told by Pierce in WR that in the crash, two died (though we are left to wonder if they are dead-dead, or just dead), and two survived. One was captured and held for 3 years till he escaped, but we are not told of the fate of the fourth (unless I just missed it). I suspect, and it's clearly just a guess at this time, that Nesedo-Harding is who was captured, while Nesedo-TicTac escaped. Since I'm in guess mode, my suspicion is that Nesedo-Harding was meant to be Michael's parent, while Nesedo-TicTac was meant to protect Max. This might explain some of the differential/preferential treatment that sometimes seems to occur. Now, if the above theory proves correct, it brings up another question - who killed Atherton? Btw: b) Why does Nesedo NOT feel drawn to Max, but instead seems to gravitate toward Michael? [NOTE: Nesedo says Max cannot come back; later Nesedo will approach Michael NOT Max about the sighting and be put off when he sees Max and Isabel at the symbol.] Freudian slip? Do you mean to ask why Riverdog seems to prefer Michael to Max? Or do you suspect Riverdog is Nesedo? Elliott   --Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 936    -- 06-20-2000 09:19 AM LSS: I'd like to address one thing you bring up in section #4 of your outline: 'Alien Memories' . . . The first question seems to be when do these memories date from? Do they go as far back as the completely alien lives our threesome had as other personages on another planet? Or do they date from that mysterious period from birth to about the age of six when Max, Isabel and Michael (and evidently Tess) were 'hatched,' which began the time of their current range of memory? I am most tantalized by those first six years. Who raised them up until that time, and how and where was it done? On the other planet? On a space vehicle? On Earth? As for their lives and loves as aliens who lived before: this doesn't interest me as much and seems potentially very silly. I do hope we don't get flashbacks with Max and Michael as Zenon and Tabarac (or some such) wearing glittering raiment and talking stilted English, all to simulate their lives as royal aliens. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 09:24 AM Lala79--only 12 posts? Welcome to the SF threads!!! Originally posted by Lala79: "Why does Riverdog tell Max and Liz not to come back and that he can't give them anymore info, but later he brings out these healing stones. Did he momentarily forget about them? Was he hiding them?" ****************************************** Good point!!! That is precisely what I was talking about. Of course River Dog could have talked to Max more and told him all about Nesedo. He had to have known more (i.e., the stones) than he conveyed in those few minutes. But he didn't WANT to. He was fulfilling a promise (?) and once that was done, he was through (but not apparently forever...later he would initiate contact with Michael at the time of the sighting). ********************************************* "Why would you Nasedo write messages on a wall in a cave? Why didn't he mention it when he returned? What did the message mean? Why was it no longer safe for him at the reservation? Was the FBI on to him or was it the "evil aliens"? .... And Nasedo has always acted very strangely when it's come to Max and Michael. He seemed to immediately recongize Michael, yet he is practically stalking Max and taking dozens of pictures of him. And once again I ask Why did Nasedo have a heart attack when Tess brought Isabel over to the house?" ******************************************** You know, I hadn't noticed Nesedo's reaction to Michael. It could simply be that Michael has always been more open to the idea of Nesedo than Max has. But I think that we saw that "faith" deteriorate in the White Room. And yes--his response to Isabel was very odd. [Edited by LSS on 06-20-2000 at 09:35 AM] huggybehr   --Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 95    -- 06-20-2000 09:58 AM Elliot, I couldn't agree with you more, definately no silly flashbacks of the aliens home planet or former lives! Rattlebox, like you I am a believer in the 2 nasedo theory. I just have a real hard time imagining Harding as he has been portrayed, befriending any human, let alone both River Dog and Atherton. Although he may have needed River Dog in order to survive why would he need Atherton? Lala79, I also have more questions than answers at this point. For me the significance of River Dog and the true identity of Nasedo, are two of the most intriguing aspects of the mythology. LSS, on the subject of 'alien memories', perhaps (like Superman) during the first six years in the pods they were being programmed with knowledge of their language and culture, which would have been reinforced by their alien protectors, if the ship hadn't crashed. Would they actually need memories from their former lives in order to carry out their mission on Earth? I am off to check out the point at which Tess first refers to Harding as Nasedo. Was it before, or after Max does? LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 10:01 AM Hi Rattlebox! quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox And is this Nesedo the same alien we later know as Mr. Harding and whom people call Nesedo? This one, I think, is still very much up for grabs-but right now I think I am leaning towards those folks who advocate a two Nesedo theory....So, if we assume that the crew of the spacecraft that crashed in '47 were actually the team meant to carry out the task of rearing and protecting the podsters till they were ready to mount the counteroffensive, then it would not be a bad guess that two of the crew were to pose as Max and Isabel's parents, and the others as Michael and Tess's parents. Now we are told by Pierce in WR that in the crash, two died (though we are left to wonder if they are dead-dead, or just dead), and two survived. One was captured and held for 3 years till he escaped, but we are not told of the fate of the fourth (unless I just missed it). I suspect, and it's clearly just a guess at this time, that Nesedo-Harding is who was captured, while Nesedo-TicTac escaped. Since I'm in guess mode, my suspicion is that Nesedo-Harding was meant to be Michael's parent, while Nesedo-TicTac was meant to protect Max. This might explain some of the differential/preferential treatment that sometimes seems to occur. Now, if the above theory proves correct, it brings up another question - who killed Atherton? ************************************ Some great observations and questions Rattlebox! 1) You know--the spoilers told us that Tess and Michael were siblings...but did that information ever come out in the actual episodes? I don't think it did--because the idea that Michael had "family" would have been very important for the relational storyline. Maybe they intend on bringing it out in the Fall? Or did I just miss it? It permeated the spoiler board in discussions like "how will Michael like it if Max spurns his sister" BUT I can't remember it in the actually epsodes that aired. BTW I do think a good case for it can be made by the pod arrangements. I mean we KNOW that Isabel and Max are siblings (the momogram)--then again the pods could indicate pair bondings. Just because M/I are siblings doesn't mean that Mi/T have to be. But even if Mi/T are not siblings your theory could still hold...simply substitute "protecter" for "parent". 2) And yes--I think that the storyline as we have it now is ambiguous about that 4th alien. That really has me wondering--maybe good old Milton might still be a candidate? (I really liked him in the books--but lately he's disappeared...along with Max's job...the high school...the parents...sigh). You know--I still find it very strange that "Nesedo" is a shapeshifter and so are the bad aliens. Once again--in the realm of SF shapeshifting is not what I would call a "common" alien attribute. If Nesedo = our teens' alien race, then BOTH the good and the bad aliens are shapeshifters. I find that a bit strange. 3) About the River Dog/Nesedo slip/error...if it was subconscious then the meaning is beyond me--except for some intriguing spoilers that we had about deaths on the reservation that never materialized in the actual storyline. Come to think about it...I wonder what happened to that whole story line? Thanks Rattlebox--I always enjoy your posts! LSS LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 10:12 AM Hi elliot! quote: Originally posted by Elliott LSS: The first question seems to be when do these memories date from? Do they go as far back as the completely alien lives our threesome had as other personages on another planet? Or do they date from that mysterious period from birth to about the age of six when Max, Isabel and Michael (and evidently Tess) were 'hatched,' which began the time of their current range of memory? .... As for their lives and loves as aliens who lived before...I do hope we don't get flashbacks with Max and Michael as Zenon and Tabarac (or some such) wearing glittering raiment and talking stilted English, all to simulate their lives as royal aliens. You have a good point--what if the pods contained educational devices that did not complete their task? Or if they did complete it and the "education" our podsters received has not yet been "turned on"? In a former post Rattlebox suggested something that perhaps their memories had been "turned off" for their protection. I posted a lengthy response to his post that got lost. You might be able to argue the same thing, however, about "educational" info. If these are not "memories" but stored information gleaned during the incubation period, then maybe this information has not yet been activated except for vague memories. And yeah--I don't want Max to remember more about Tess than he has to (sorry Hussies...what can I say? I'm a dreamgirl through and through). LSS LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 10:26 AM Well folks, sorry for the third post in a row...but Huggiebehr I didn't see your post when I responded to Elliot. YES! Something like the education crystals that were in use in the pod/craft that brought superman to earth as a baby is a very nice analogy to what might have been happening in those incubation pods. If that is the case, however, it means that there may be a whale of a lot of information that our aliens have that they have not tapped into. But you know--I DO think that those past memories are VERY important. I mean, if you are going to send your future leaders off to a far away planet and clothe them in alien flesh and STILL hope that they will come back and save you...don't you think you'd leave something more than that momogram? Maybe there will be more recordings to "fill them in" on the war? I mean, damn--Nesedo wouldn't/couldn't even tell them about the enemies around them. What purpose does walking in so much darkness (informational that is) serve? To a certain extent, protection. But we've gone beyond that point now. And that may be why all indications about the Fall has the storyline focusing on the show's alien mythology. LSS TheGoodNacedo   --Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 222    -- 06-20-2000 10:28 AM I believe that Riverdog knew more, but felt that Max and Liz would not be able to hold so much info in such a short time. Now that he knew Max existed, he could always find a way to relay more info if needed. The test was Max's powers. He made light when Liz was grabbed by Riverdog. Maybe the piece of broken pendant was burned off when Nasedo killed Atherton? I believe Nasedo/Harding is the man who befriended Riverdog. If you remember in Destiny, Tess told the Pod Squad that they needed to find Riverdog, and get "healing stones" and Izzy told her they already had them. And maybe Riverdog was looking and listening for Nasedo when Liz was going to her car because he felt that Nasedo would kill him for WITNESSING Atherton's death? Atherton gained Nasedo's trust..he was later killed. Riverdog gained Nasedo's trust...was Nasedo back for him? He was visibly afraid. These are my own views..I'm probably just rambling, or worse..wrong!! hehehee thanx Anthony Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-20-2000 10:50 AM Rattlebox and others have brought up the question of which Nasedo was on the reservation and was it Harding? Tess said in "Destiny" That Nasedo could not die and he had told her to find an old Indian named River Dog and the healing stones. I think that would make Harding River Dog's Nasedo. I think it's a great point that Nasedo/tic-tac is more drawn to Max and Nasedo/Harding is more drawn to Michael and Tess. It would make sense that the original aliens on the ship would pose as parents as well as act as protectors, and maybe are conditioned to have some bond with their assigned hatchlings. Skm Level 1 Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 4    -- 06-20-2000 10:51 AM I think everyone's ideas are great. Good Point about the 2 Nesedo theory. Another question I had was why the pod squad had to come out when they were 6 yrs old. And if that was the case, why would Nesedo not be there when they emerged, only when Tess did. Also, have you guys read the fanfiction on Crashdown.com? Questions and Answers by Susan has some GREAT theories about the relationship of Liz to the pod squad, relating to her grandmother's research on the reservation. You should check it out. Perfectly written. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 11:44 AM quote: Originally posted by Skm I Another question I had was why the pod squad had to come out when they were 6 yrs old. And if that was the case, why would Nesedo not be there when they emerged, only when Tess did. Also, have you guys read the fanfiction on Crashdown.com? Questions and Answers by Susan has some GREAT theories about the relationship of Liz to the pod squad, relating to her grandmother's research on the reservation. Skm-- On one of the other SF of [episode] threads we had a long conversation/s about the pods and when our podsters emerged. Some theories explored were: 1) The three pods were "on time" but Tess' malfunctioned (this doesn't explain why Nesedo was not there however! It was meant to explain why Tess "looked" different and did not emerge with the original three). 2) The three pods malfunctioned but Tess' was on time (which is why Nesedo was not there for the others). 3) They were all damaged and thus Tess looked different from the others, and the podsters emerged at two different times. 4) The three podsters emerged on time, but the fourth podster died. Tess is a fake. As for Liz/native americans/Grandma Claudia & fanfic...you are right! Fanfic writers have ranged free to develop this connection. In the world of fanfic we have had: 1) Nesedo impregnating Grandma Claudia (Liz thus is part alien; or is key to the alien plan to subdue the enemy) 2) Grandma Claudia's research involving alien symbols/culture. 3) Liz retreating to the reservation to get some space from Max...there she learns native american mystical traditions/powers. And so on! It seems like fanfic writers are quick to pick up on the implications of our storyline! LSS Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-20-2000 11:46 AM Speculation on the question about why they had to emerge as 6 year olds: What if the mixing of DNA was so incompatable that they needed to be incubated for a long time for life support? Perhaps the aliens are carried longer than humans - or not at all, or are more physically dependent on parents in some respects that could not be duplicated any other way. Nasedo may have been otherwise indisposed with the FBI, or bad aliens, so he rushed back to find all but one had hatched and left the nest. BehrAll   --Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 659    -- 06-20-2000 11:58 AM Hi! Great theories and observations you guys -- I love reading these threads. I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts on the nature of the Healing Stones themselves? Kim648   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 67    -- 06-20-2000 12:02 PM Okay, all this is very interesting so I thought I would share! I was just thinking about the drawings on the wall in the cave. Do you think Max and the others were a disapointment, like they didn't evolve as much as they should have? Do you think Nasedo expected them to be able to read what was on that wall? It kind of disapointed me how they never explained any further on the drawings. You guys were saying about Nasedo not believably having friends(Riverdog, Atherton). Maybe he was a little kinder towards humans then, but Atherton betrayed him(by trying to uncover him?) and Nasedo decided the human race was evil and never forgave humans for what Atherton did to him? This could be the cause for his carelessness towards humans. Seeing that Tess and Michael are sibblings, I was thinking that their marrages were arranged. Since they were part of the royal family, this would probably be very likely. How likely is it they're gonna fall in love with their workman's sister? If this is explained in the next season, I'm sure the M/T and M/I relationships won't work. Another reason for Riverdog not telling them about the stones could be because Nasedo's always told Tess to get the stones if he was in trouble. If Max, Michael and Isabel had of taken the stones and Tess hadn't them yet, and Nasedo was in trouble, it would be pratcially impossible to find them. Remember in Destiny when Tess says they need the stones to heal Nasedo and to get them from Riverdog. And last of all..You were saying why Nasedo didn't get Max, Michael and Isabel. I would just say they did hatch early, or maybe they were suppose to wait and wanted to explore. I'm sure Nasedo was suppose to take care of them growing up, but he just didn't make it in time. He was probably really angry at himself for not getting there in time, since if something had happened to them, his planet would have no luck left. That's all from me for now!! Kim LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 12:38 PM Just to comment on one thing you said (then I'm off to teach summer school classes): quote: Originally posted by Kim648 I was just thinking about the drawings on the wall in the cave. Do you think Max and the others were a disapointment, like they didn't evolve as much as they should have? Do you think Nasedo expected them to be able to read what was on that wall? It kind of disapointed me how they never explained any further on the drawings. This is really quite interesting!!! Remember how Nesedo expects Michael to be able to scan the plans in The White Room? And how he seems, in general, displeased with our teens' lack of ability in terms of their powers? If that message was meant for Max & co. (and not for any of the other aliens we know now exist on earth) then yes--it goes without saying that he expected Max to have mastery of the alien language. BUT--what if that message was NOT intended for Max? After all--what do we have...AN ALIEN MESSAGE. We do not know for whom it was intended. We've assumed that it was our trio because we assumed (until Destiny) that the alien population on earth was fairly limited. Of course now--only the writers know for sure how many aliens call earth their temporary home!!! Wonder if there are any more messages waiting to be found? LSS fan45 Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 2    -- 06-20-2000 01:39 PM Are we sure that Atherton is really dead? The photo of him in the book jacket "Among Us" looks remarkably similar to River Dog (his eyes look blue). Why did he warn Liz about Max deserving her trust? He trusted/befriended one of the Nasedo aliens (a good one) but maybe a bad one tried to kill him. The reservation is a good place to assume another identity and hide from bad aliens and FBI agents. He is very sketchy about witnessing Atherton's demise(without telling a lie and providing a good cover for his true identity). How did he get a piece of the pendant? Because if RiverDog IS Atherton and he got too close to the alien truth, many would want to kill him. Grabbing the amulet in a hurry on the way out the door...oops, it broke! Is anyone sure that the body with handprint is actually Atherton? huggybehr   --Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 95    -- 06-20-2000 01:48 PM Some of these posts are making me reconsider the question of whether Harding is River Dog's Nasedo. Kim648, that's a good point about Nasedo's experience with Atherton changing his views about humans. If that is the case, it seems unlikely that he was the same alien who was held and experimented on in the white room by the FBI for 3 years - I think that experience in itself would have soured alien/human relations. In 'The White Room', Harding said that he had escaped the military base once, but, this could have been shortly after the crash or after being held in captivity for 3 years. So, there is still a possibility there is a 2nd alien, after all we haven't been told what became of the alien who was held in captivity, and I am yet to be convinced that the 'pills' were insignificant. Perhaps, the 2nd alien escaped eventually, and as a result of what the FBI did to him he needs the pills to enable him to shapeshift. Any thoughts on this? Elliott   --Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 936    -- 06-20-2000 01:56 PM Kim648, LSS: The answer to your wonderment would seem to be obvious (I said would SEEM to be obvious. We never know, do we?) If Max can't read the cave wall characters and if Max, Isabel and Michael are a bit like backward children about their powers and abilities (as we know they are) it would seem to be because they never had the benefit of what Tess had: guidance from a drone alien whose purpose was to protect and to teach. Tess seems much more aware of her abilities (and uses them with no scruples) and of at least some of Nasedo's than MIM are. But she doesn't know everything. Presumably Nasedo knew what the contents of the Mom-o-gram would be (even if he had never seen it), but he never shared this with Tess (we assume). He has almost sadistically held information back, presumably waiting until the kids were 'ready' to go on to the next stage of knowledge and power. What should be interesting in season #2 is the exploration of the (presumably formidable) powers that Max, Isabel and Michael have. And unlike Tess and Nasedo, they do have (what we understand to be) moral values, scruples, compassion, empathy, etc. Which should make their dilemma quite interesting and complicated. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-20-2000 02:05 PM hi there, great posts folks! i'm especially struck by the quandry of the second alien who was captured. we don't know how damaged or traumatized that alien was, or what happened to it...? (unless i've missed something?) anyway, i see riverdog as the rebellious and envelope pushing youngster who got in really deep with nasedo. perhaps the death of atherton spooked him away from his initial stance? and i'm wondering if atherton was one of the 'bad aliens' in disguise? eddie might identify with the charactor of riverdog, hence his assistance? does riverdog represent a move beyond a limited life/horizon to him? as for the test, is it a simple way to make sure that riverdog isn't handing over information to either the fbi or an 'evil alien'? are riverdog and nesedo both scared of max? (and of isabel?) perhaps michael feels less threatening to them because he is less contained...his responses are more manafest--and he is less ambivalent about the quest. the memories of the podsters may have been 'loaded' while they were sitting in the pods for six years (?). i've been thinking that given how messed up all the plans were by the crash and the capture; chances are that the podsters didn't get 'started' until after nesedo escaped? given what happened with atherton and the fbi, might nesedo have felt the need to dissapear, and throw them off the track by leaving new mexico? imagine his agitation upon returning to the cave and only finding tess. i still think that whatever memories return to the podsters are not going to equal a 'personality transplant'....instead i imagine that it will be either a representation of 'racial memories'. maybe even 'collective conscious/unconscious'?? i expect that the 'slow' development of skills and lack of recall (?) may have something to do with the ambivalence the podsters experience about their whole situation. i thought this episode displayed that quite a bit. your grateful dead quote of the day: "you aint going to learn what you don't want to know." ( black throated wind in case you want to know ) seems like max and isabel might at that time have a case of not wanting to know on some level, of wanting to fit in? oh yeah, about the 2nd surviving alien (?), what if nesedo doesn't know that alien is out and about? (and visa versa?)this could turn out to be something out of 'midsummer's night dream' where you have charactors running about not realizing the connection and presence of each other. a comedy of errors? jenlev deidra e, jones   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 513    -- 06-20-2000 02:12 PM River Dog is the key in unlocking the truth about Max, Isabel & Michael's past. Into the Woods, when River Dog fell and broke his ankle, and Michael healed him, Michael saw visions on cave walls in their alien language. River Dog and Liz are very important to the aliens' mythology. storyteller   --Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 61    -- 06-20-2000 02:17 PM It has been really interesting reading everyone's theories. I have a few responses to throw into the fire... *I think the reason why Nasedo had taken all these pictures of Max is because Tess was curious about her "future" (or "past")mate. She has this obsession with Max. However, I'm still suspicious of Tess. I think the idea that she is a fake (replacing the real Tess, who died because her pod malfunctioned) is very plausible. I mean, she does have powers that the others don't have. Is that because she is more trained by Nasedo, or is it because she is really another race of alien (the bad race)? Perhaps the reason why there are so many pictures of Max is because they were spying on the leader, their opponent, trying to figure out how to get to him. I mean, why did Tess first announce her presence by manipulating Max's mind? It seems that if she was really on his side, she would have announced her presence in a more non-threatening manner. Building on this theory, it seems that Tess is determined to seperate Liz and Max. You could look at this two ways: one, Tess thinks Max is her soulmate and she wants him to herself, pure and simple. Another explanation could be that she is working with the bad aliens, and she knows that the key to Max's triumph and survival is irrevocably linked to his connection with humans. I don't think that it was his home planet's original plan for Max to fall in love with Liz (I think that was a starcrossed turn of fate), but I do think that their success is linked to their relationships with humans, that humans will ultimately help them solve the puzzle and find the knowledge they need to return home and free their people. We've already seen how integral Maria, Alex, and Liz's contributions have been. Perhaps Tess senses this, and is seperating the two for a reason. It's interesting to think about. In any case, I think it's great that the writers are playing with the notion of a plan gone wrong. When their home planet was coming up with the plan of sending them to earth, they never dreamed that the ship would crash, and that the trio would get seperated from the aliens who were supposed to teach them their language, culture, and powers (Nasedo and the other alien who was killed). They didn't predict that the trio would be raised human and become somewhat afraid of the alien side of them, that they would fall in love with humans and rebel against their destiny. Watching the chaos unfold will be half the fun next season. I just hope they continue to keep the mythology and human/alien relationship storylines strong and compelling. Lameduck Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 39    -- 06-20-2000 02:17 PM Another question about Riverdog comes from Into the Woods where he tells Michael that the UFO sighting is real because he had seen it before. Does this mean that there was another visit in 1959? Or perhaps Nacedo, after escaping, was making a bat signal as Nacedo/Harding did in Max to the Max to try to find the other shapeshifter? LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 02:31 PM Elliot: If Tess is what our podsters might have looked like if they had been taught by Nesedo all their lives then either: 1) Nesedo is one sorry teacher, or 2) Tess was anything but a quick study. She does not display great aptitude in the mastery of her powers (she can't even dreamwalk) nor do we know that she can "read" the language of that book. She reports its contents in a VERY general way as if they had been told to her. She NEVER reads it out loud nor does she give us any details about its contents. If we hadn't seen those pictures, we would not have known what the book addressed. In fact--wasn't it Michael who comes up with the bioengineered idea after he looks at it? Another case of vaguely remembering the language? LSS fireflya Level 1 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 6    -- 06-20-2000 02:38 PM quote: Originally posted by fan45 Are we sure that Atherton is really dead? The photo of him in the book jacket "Among Us" looks remarkably similar to River Dog (his eyes look blue). As I was watching River Dog yesterday I was thinking about the same thing. What struck me about River Dog was his blue eyes and I wondered also if he could be Atherton. I believe that the Nasedo River Dog knew and the one our pod squad has come in contact with are the same. River Dog seemed apprehensive about Max which says Nasedo to me. I do think that there is another active alien from the ship out there. I believe this is the shapeshifter who we saw disposing of Hank. Another important part to this is that Tess said that Nasedo has never left her alone before. If this was the case and we assume she's telling the truth, he couldn't have been two places at once. We saw an alien in Roswell long before Tess and Nasedo arrived. I also have a questions if the aliens can't die then where are the other two aliens that Pierce said were found dead? Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-20-2000 03:20 PM I have to type fast because my computer keeps logging out on me... OK, here goes... I was thinking about the "plan gone awry" scenario and came up with a theory. What if there was a malfunction, as had been suggested, because the ship was sabotaged, or whatever, it crashes and the pods malfunction. The original plan was to have the podsters hatch fully grown, as adults. This would explain a lot of things, especially if their mature brains and bodies would have contained all of their species memories, or collective concious, or whatever you want to call it. It would explain why they recognize things but can't quite "remember" how to read them. It would explain why they have half forgotten memories of things. It would explain why their powers are so undeveloped. Perhaps this is the way all teenagers are on their planet, and the parents jobs are to fill in the gaps until they come into their adult hood. It makes more sense to me to expect them to be able to function in a hostile environment as adults, rather than as children, guardians or no. We know that there could have been a malfunction of some sort I mean, why did Tess hatch after everyone else? This also seems to fit with a time frame that makes more sense. We don't know when they began their journey to earth, but suppose that they were supposed to start incubating upon arrival. They then spend the next 40 years in the pods, and hatch as fully grown adults (in human standards, and I might add, the beginning of really living). But, instead they popped out as babies... 6 years old and unable to communicate. Do you see what I mean? More thoughts on Nasedo... An Indian reservation is the perfect place to hide out. They are considered seperate nations and are a law unto themselves. They do not like interference from the federal government, and do not like outsiders. If Nasedo had arrived on the reservation and managed to befriend them, as someone fleeing the Feds, they may just have helped him to spite the US gov't. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-20-2000 03:32 PM I'm doing this in two seperate entries because of the computer logging out thing...OK, a couple of other thoughts... About the pill thing... I think that they really are Tic-tacs. I think the character was given this mannerism so that we, the audience, could identify him no matter what he looked like. Now, if you will note, the Harding/Nasedo does not munch tic-tacs... does this mean that they gave up this mannerism because we could now identify him because they showed us who he is, or does this mean that there are two Nasedo's? If there are two, then this mannerism helps us to id the protector Nasedo (the guy who killed Hank and tried to throw off the sheriff) from the very strange Harding/Nasedo. Although, I'm still rather up in the air as to whether there are actually two, or if it's one shapeshifter who has had a psychotic break and has a split personality??!!?? I also wanted to address the comment about the arranged marriages. I think I've said this before somewhere... If Max is the leader/king of his people, it would make perfect sense for his sister to be betrothed to his second in command. In the past, a King's right hand was his best warrior and if not born of noble blood, then usually made so by the king... although, almost always he would have had some blue blood somewhere. It would have also made sense for a leader to give his sister to a man whom he trusted to protect her with his life (and his skills as a warrior). If Michael was indeed Max's second, then he would have already have taken some kind of binding oath, which would include his family. Now of course I'm basing this on stuff from our history... it could be totally different elsewhere. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 03:39 PM quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 IThe original plan was to have the podsters hatch fully grown, as adults.... It makes more sense to me to expect them to be able to function in a hostile environment as adults, rather than as children, guardians or no. We know that there could have been a malfunction of some sort I mean, why did Tess hatch after everyone else? This also seems to fit with a time frame that makes more sense. We don't know when they began their journey to earth, but suppose that they were supposed to start incubating upon arrival. They then spend the next 40 years in the pods, and hatch as fully grown adults (in human standards, and I might add, the beginning of really living). But, instead they popped out as babies... 6 years old and unable to communicate. You know--I don't know if our writers will "go there" but this is the BEST exercise of logic concerning the time gap between the crash and the emergence of our teens fromthe pods that I have read. IF the pods were taken from the 1947 crash (and some theories argue against this) then 1989 would mark their "42nd" year--and they would emerge as mature adults. It has never made sense that 6 yr olds would be left intentionally to wander--of all places--in a desert. But your idea suggests that this was, in fact, not the original intention. And your idea that a reservation would make a great hiding place is excellent--but has one problem that you need to address to make it really credible--why would a group of people most likely to be suspicious of strangers welcome one? Or perhaps my assumption is incorrect? Would strangers be most likely welcomed and offered a place to live on a reservation? Well done...some great ideas. LSS Glozone Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 38    -- 06-20-2000 03:42 PM If Atherton was Riverdog wouldn't he be about 90 years old? Riverdog doesn't look that old to me. Just a thought on TicTac popping Nasedo, My husband pops asperin just like that for severe headaches and old motorcycle injuries. I assumed Nasedo (or other shape-shifting alien) was taking some kind of pain pill. The alien who killed Michael's foster father seemed ill after shape-shifting, but the Nasedo/Harding didn't seem at all affected. Forgive me if this has been brought up before, I'm trying to get through the Nasedo thread. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-20-2000 04:01 PM LSS, you're right about the Mesaliko's probably being suspicious of outsiders...I guess I've watched "Dances with Wolves" too many times. I grew up in the southwest, and from what I know of the reservations and the tribes that live here is that they are, in general, suspicious of outsiders... but if you have an in, then it's easier to be accepted. And once the tribe accepts you, you become a part of them. It is possible that he befriended one of the tribe who then paved the way for him... although it looks like only River Dog continued the relationship for any length of time. I don't know how or why he was accepted, but River Dog said that he was there at some point. Maybe I'm thinking about this in reverse... maybe he befriended Atherton first, and Atherton was known on the res, or Grandma Claudia... maybe he befriended her while she was doing an archeological study in the area and she introduced him to the Mesalikos... I don't know. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 04:02 PM quote: Originally posted by Glozone If Atherton was Riverdog wouldn't he be about 90 years old? Riverdog doesn't look that old to me. Nemo--are you out there? Nemo would know exactly how old Atherton would be because he took note of that screen Michael (or was it Max?) pulled up at the UFO museum on Atherton. But I don't know -- I could believe that River Dog was in his 70s or 80s without too much problem--healthy living you know (all those sweats). But I'm going to have to go back and look at that body and that book cover before I'll commit myself on the River Dog/Atherton identification. LSS Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-20-2000 05:07 PM What if the ship crashing (or being shot down by the bad aliens) damaged the original pods they were suposed to use? Maybe it took Nasedo years to rebuild them before he could place the embryos inside. OR Maybe he had done it before and they died, so our current trio are actually not the first try. Luckily, he had frozen pleanty of the original tissue of each to try again. OR Maybe Tess was started a little late, because her original didn't make it. OR Maybe it takes a very long time to incubate a hybrid. Or maybe it was the alien part of them that needed so much time. OR That stuff about the constellations lining up - what if they had to be timed to the constellations? How often does it happen? How many chances would he have had after '47? About Harding/Nasedo on the reservation. What if after he escaped the FBI, he had to go back to the area to start on the podpeople, but needed to hide while he did it. The reservation would be a perfect place. In return for safety, maybe he healed the sick and injured(reservation medical care not being the best). Maybe Atherton stumbled on what he was doing and Nasedo had to eliminate him. After young River Dog knew that Atherton had be murdered, he realized that they would fear or distrust him, so he was no longer safe with them. He hangs around the southwest to check up on the pod chamber now and then till 1989 when the little critters are due to hatch. Perhaps because of the FBI or bad aliens, he was delayed and missed three of them, but raised the last one. As for there being more than one shapeshifter, Harding must be Nasedo from the reservation, but Tic-Tac is another "good" alien (better than Nasedo). Pierce said there were four aliens captured - two dead, two alive. One escaped (Pierce: "Nasedo. Isn't that what you call him?"). One was held for three years. "FOUR ALIENS CAPTURED" sticks in my mind. What if there were more that weren't captured? Tic-Tac could be one of them, or maybe the one in captivity was freed as well. Anyhow, just some ideas to play with. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-20-2000 05:21 PM My-oh-my! You people are so good - There's so much here I could respond to, but let me be as brief as I can: quote: Originally posted by LSS 1) You know--the spoilers told us that Tess and Michael were siblings...but did that information ever come out in the actual episodes? No, it didn't. I just split them up that way because it felt right, and because it would help the mating arrangements. You know--I still find it very strange that "Nesedo" is a shapeshifter and so are the bad aliens. Once again--in the realm of SF shapeshifting is not what I would call a "common" alien attribute. If Nesedo = our teens' alien race, then BOTH the good and the bad aliens are shapeshifters. I find that a bit strange. First, are we really sure that the "evil" aliens are going to be shapeshifters? I know I've heard, and written it myself, over and over, but I don't remember if its ever been said "on the record" - ie in the show. Second, it makes me wonder whether, like the podsters being basically human, but evolved in a different direction, the two shapeshifting species might not share a common ancestor. (Wasn't this done on the original star trek series with the Vulcan's and the Romulans? Is there anyone else here ancient enough to also remember that? ) quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 IThe original plan was to have the podsters hatch fully grown, as adults.... But, instead they popped out as babies... 6 years old and unable to communicate. I also love this idea! The ironic thing is, if they are to complete their mission, they will almost certainly need, in addition to the knowledge they brought with them, the help and cooperation of a large proportion of humanity - help they are much more likely to be able to arrange having been raised human. It brings up one of the themes of the show - nothing really happened untill they reached out to the humans - starting with Liz - around them. quote: Originally posted by LSS If Tess is what our podsters might have looked like if they had been taught by Nesedo all their lives then either: 1) Nesedo is one sorry teacher, or 2) Tess was anything but a quick study. To that I'd offer two other possibilities 3) Tess isn't saying everything she knows 4) There is less to the book than it appears If I had to guess, I'd bet on #3 - Tess's great skill is that of illusion and deception. Speaking of "great skills", let me add that if the fearless podsters really were genetically engineered with evolutionarily forced abilities, then perhaps its not so odd that they excell at different skills, while almost entirely lacking others - the engineers just picked different possible evolutionary branches to push them up. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-20-2000 05:27 PM Palomino... you and I are thinking along the same lines. Pierce sort of breezed over the part about what happened to the 4th alien. And he could have been lying. Why would he feel compelled to tell Max the truth about anything? I would think that he would have emphasized the death of the captured alien so he could scare the bejeezus out of Max. Perhaps Tic-tac Nasedo (the good one) was the one who escaped initially, and the weirded out Nasedo, after 3 years of experimentation and torture, finally escaped, but not after being psychologically damaged from his experience. (and gaining a deep hatred and fear of humans) OR... he/she/it could have been saved by the other Nasedo. When Max says "When he told me what they had done to the other alien...", it is never said specifically that that particular alien is dead. [Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 06-20-2000 at 05:32 PM] shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-20-2000 05:36 PM Atherton & RiverDog certainly do look alike, and it would be somewhat of an explanation for RD's blue eyes (which has been bothering me). But then none of the actors playing characters from the Reservation seemed to be of an ethnicity related to that area, so maybe they just had the RD actor pose for the Atherton pix because he was on the set. In the Roswell High books, Max is blond haired & blue-eyed; maybe ethnicity was not a consideration in casting (hmmm...what if they had not considered gender, and Max and Liz had reversed roles...?) Or maybe the actor got hired for the RD role after doing the Atherton poses because he seemed right for the part. Of course, maybe they are not the same at all. Having read Book 1, I was also struck during the RD ep re-airing last night that perhaps Nasedo was trying to heal Atherton of a heart attack. But Atherton's book "Among Us" seems to point to the typical Nasedo motive of killing those who would expose the alien identity. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-20-2000 05:45 PM hi there, well rattlebox, i believe you are right: the vulcans and the romulans did share a common ancestry. and i agree that tess is not saying all that she knows. i also wonder if she knows less than she thinks. and lorriliei1960, i agree about max being manipulated by pierce in the white room. there seemed to be calculated inconsistancies presented by pierce in order to keep max 'off balance' (and to try to gather more information?) by the way, perhaps nesedo was injured, or just pooped and as he got better he no longer needed assistance after shapeshifting? although i am leaning towards there being two shapeshifters: we really don't know what happened to the one kept in captivity right?(can't help thinking of monty python and the holy grail here..."i'm not dead yet, i'm feeling much better..." ) anyway, you made very good points. thank you also lss and palomino for what you brought up. and everyone else, this thread is such fun! although it's killing me to wait until october to find out what 'they' do with the plot and explanations. arghhh! jenlev Author Topic: The Science Fiction of River Dog LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-20-2000 05:47 PM Hi Rattlebox: A few comments before I head home (and to my crashed shell of a computer...sob): quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox First, are we really sure that the "evil" aliens are going to be shapeshifters? I know I've heard, and written it myself, over and over, but I don't remember if its ever been said "on the record" - ie in the show. Second, it makes me wonder whether, like the podsters being basically human, but evolved in a different direction, the two shapeshifting species might not share a common ancestor. (Wasn't this done on the original star trek series with the Vulcan's and the Romulans? Is there anyone else here ancient enough to also remember that? ) .... To that I'd offer two other possibilities 3) Tess isn't saying everything she knows 4) There is less to the book than it appears If I had to guess, I'd bet on #3 - Tess's great skill is that of illusion and deception. The reference to the other shape-shifting aliens came from an article posted on the crashdown.com news site. I tend to think that it is accurate--they were actually talking about Howie D's character. It is an odd fact to just throw out there if you weren't getting it from somewhere (though they may have been confusing the bad aliens with nesedo). I love your idea about a parent stock race. That could make sense as to why both races could shapeshift (assuming of course that Nesedo is of Max's "race"). You know, I've been trying to figure out what might be the advantage of having your future leader in a body that cannot shapeshift (given that everyone else--friend and foe--can). Rattlebox--any suggestions? As for Tess--I've tried and tried to avoid thinking that Tess is anything other than what she says she is--simply because part of me wants her to be a fake (sorry Mala--but you know where I stand on this). This is one time I'll be glad to be proved wrong! Your idea of each teen being customized in terms of their evolutionary bio-engineering is intriguing. It certainly would explain what we are now seeing--and that is that our Warrior Michael and our Benevolent Leader Max certainly seem to have different powers (though I would not agree with poor Michael that he is "bad" because he kills and Max is "good" because he heals!). Well--see you on the boards tomorrow morning... LSS PACOTACO Level 1 Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 30    -- 06-20-2000 06:06 PM Palomino's post sorta brings up a question of mine. In it he says "what if the ship crashing(OR BEING SHOT DOWN BY THE BAD ALIENS)--- Now if the evil aliens know the crash was not a hoax would it not stand to reason they would have a least one evil alien stationed in the town to watch for anything unusual? After watching last nights episode this came back to me because of the deputy recognizing the pendant that maria was wearing. Does anyone else in the town come to mine? PACOTACO Level 1 Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 30    -- 06-20-2000 06:08 PM Oops i meant the pendant isabel was wearing. sorry should check post before sending it in. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-20-2000 06:24 PM The idea about the bad aliens being shapeshifters also - I didn't see this in the series. Is this a spoiler I don't know about? "Mommy Dearest" said the enemy could be ID'ed only be the evil within. Does that mean they are shapeshifters like the oppressed ones (a civil war perhaps? one sect of the population enslaving the other? hence the same species?). Did she mean they couldn't be told apart from the humans? Are they alien minds that have taken over human bodies? If so, do they have powers or weapons? About Atherton switching places with RD - I think it's unlikely. For one thing, the age difference. Second, I don't think the tribe would have put up with it and covered for him. Third, THE KEY that Michael got from the sheriff was found on the body of "Atherton". The real Atherton would have at some point gone back for information he thought was worth locking up in the hidden room. He would not have planted his key on the corpse - it certainly didn't convince anyone in 1959 that the body was Atherton's. He had remained unidentified all these years. This thread IS fun! Warm fuzzies to everyone. stargirl   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 105    -- 06-20-2000 06:45 PM What an incredibly thought-provoking and interesting thread! You guys amaze me, as always, with your intelligent and eye-opening theories. I always hope the show's writers are dipping in here for inspiration, as I've seen the best possible ideas here for future tracks the show could follow! I love the idea introduced above of 2 Nasedos, Tictac and Harding. Suddenly lots of things make more sense than they would if there was just Nasedo/Harding, who is a creepy, coldblooded, manipulative killer. And the fact that he can't die-maybe he's an android/bodyguard just programmed to guard/teach the teens (didn't someone mention this), because other aliens from the ship did die (though maybe that was because no one had the healing stones to save them?). Though I agree that Harding seems to know about the reservation (per his instructions to Tess about River Dog & the healing stones), maybe he wasn't actually the alien who was living there? Why would he have been said to have "befriended" the people on the reservation, and been a friend of Atherton's too, when clearly Harding is not someone about whom one would use the word "friend"! We know that Harding escaped from the FBI, and that there was another alien captured who was in the FBI facility for 3 years. Maybe that was Tictac and he escaped and made it to the reservation. The people there helped him to recover & let him hide out, and in turn, he was their friend (I like the idea that he was healing people, as someone mentioned above). He became a friend of Atherton's as well, and was trusted by everybody. THEN how about if Harding showed up and confused everything by shapeshifting into TicTac and killing Atherton,in front of Riverdog? That would explain how he knows the reservation stuff, and also the personality switch that seem to be involved. Didn't Riverdog sound surprised and betrayed when he said that Nasedo killed Atherton? It seemed as if it was something that didn't make sense to him. So now maybe Tictac has been around Roswell watching our trio since the sighting in Into the Woods, since we think that Harding didn't come until a few weeks later (if it's true that he's never left Tess alone). Maybe Tictac was "called" at the end of The Balance, when Michael places the stones into the cave wall map. And Harding could have been "called" by the signal sent by the communicator at the end of Sexual Healing. And did Tictac actually kill Hank? or maybe Harding killed Hank & Tictac just disposed of the body to get Michael out of the mess of being a suspect? I like to think that Tictac is not a killer, though Harding obviously is. I still cling to the thought that Harding and Tess are "bad aliens" anyway, and just trying to separate the aliens from their human friends/lovers, maybe because they know the alien teens will be weaker without their loved ones. Sorry to go on so long, but this is such interesting stuff to ponder! Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-20-2000 07:42 PM PACOTACO: About the pendant, If Nasedo was at the reservation, perhaps healing people, the deputy may have seen the symbol, but not realized what it meant. If he had been a bad alien, I don't think he would have alerted Isabel to the fact he had recognized it, and even dropped the clue about the reservation. Great idea that the bad guys have had spies in town. Atherton? Milton(perfect cover)? other deputy? Unfortunately, they haven't shown us too many townfolk to choose from, yet. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-20-2000 07:52 PM Ooooooooooo! Creepy thought. What if while Nasedo was on the reservation - HE WAS COLLECTING DNA? What if Max is part Native American? How does that maybe tie in with Liz's grandmother? Maybe Atherton was an unknowing donor for Tess, or maybe Valenti Sr. was an unwilling donor for Tess - family resemblence? it would drive ME crazy. Just some more wierd thoughts... PACOTACO Level 1 Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 30    -- 06-20-2000 08:08 PM PALOMINO: Great idea on the DNA that is a great sci-fi angle. Good point on the deputy giving away himself, but what if he was taken by suprise and blurted it out. Only reason i am bringing up the deputy again,(what is his name anyway?) i just recalled how defensive he was when he saw michael pretending to sell candy. Sorry it's just bugging me for some reason. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-20-2000 09:15 PM I don't know if I agree with the idea of the Native American deputy being a "bad alien" or a spy... I think his reaction to Michael is your typical "I don't like punks" attitude. I do think, however, that there might be others gathering info on the pod squad because of the numerous pictures, unless bad Nasedo has been in town in various guises a lot longer than we've seen. Obviously he's been around since ID, because one of the Nasedo's killed Hank. I don't think it's Milton either. He's just too terribly nerdy (although it would be a great cover...hmmmm...I'll have to keep thinking that one over). Nemo   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 421    -- 06-20-2000 11:54 PM LSS, about Atherton's age and origins, here's a quote from other threads:quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter Originally posted by Zero (seems I'm always quoting Zero) in the Importance of Liz to the Alien Mythology revisited threadquote: James Atherton was born in Pohawnee, Tennessee in 1911. He got interest in ETs after the "1927 Buffalo Visitation." He was involved in Project Grudge (1948) and later Project Blue Book (1952) [sounds like college finals to me?] which were originate by the air force to explain the sighting, decide if they pose a threat to national security and decide if they were using advanced technology that the US could use. [That's all I could read. From Rt. 285] amx   --Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 306    -- 06-21-2000 02:23 AM Hello everyone, its been a long time since I posted on a 'SciFi of ....' Thread but now that the episodes are running almost in tandem between here (Australia) and the US I feel more able to contribute. I haven't had a chance to read the whole thread, so I apologize in advance if anything I post simply reiterates what has already been discussed. LSS - insightful and thought provoking questions as usual. Hope you get your computer problems solved soon! I constantly come back to the question - why doesn't River Dog trust Max? It sticks in my mind that his distrust is so powerful that he actually warns Liz! Yet, as has often been observed he clearly doesn't have the same reservations about Michael. Has a bond developed between RD and Michael through the ritual of the sweat and subsequent healing? Such bonds can be powerful and may be a factor , but I don't think provide the whole answer. It seems to me that there is something intrinsic in the way Max and Michael 'present' to River Dog that awakens ingrained suspicions/allegiances. To me, this is where the idea that there is more than one Nesedo comes in - if Max resembles one who has proven untrustworthy in the past, might this not predispose RD to a negative reaction and vice versa? However, I do acknowledge the basic flaw in this, that during the sweat RD does not recognize Michael for what he is. The warnings to Liz by the Native American saleswoman doesn't seem so odd to me. We see RD in the context of ritual leadership and in many traditional societies there are definite gender-defined spheres of ritual knowledge and association. In my experience, oblique warnings are all that are usually given to prevent outsiders 'trespassing' into the wrong ritual territory - which is what this may represent. Similarly, RD's anxiety can be analysed in the same context - outsiders are not welcomed with ease into a ritual world of which they have no knowledge. Eddie most logically fits in as RD's 'journey man' - he is clearly trusted by RD and acts as his assistant, particularly in the ritual context of the 'sweat'. The test could have been one of intent rather than deed - Max, by thinking of Liz's safety first, may have demonstrated his credentials. However, this hardly seems enough given what is potentially at stake. For that reason, I have always thought that the test was 'bringing light to the darkness' - because it is replete with messianic overtones! As many of my earlier contributions will attest, I am compelled to believe that the writers (at least of the episodes up to Sexual Healing) had intentionally underpinned the story arc with a classic hero myth and were developing it slowly but surely. Thus, bringing the light of hope/salvation/leadership would be the appropriate way to test any 'pretender' to the knowledge the cave contained. But how disappointingly limited that knowledge proved to be! We still don't know what the Pod Squad was meant to take away from it - a map, a warning, an instruction manual or was Nesedo simply bored and high on peyote at the time! If this was indeed a warning, unless there are two Nesedo's, it was surely unnecessary. We have been told (and had other indications throughout the series) that at least one shapeshifter is some sort of guardian and has been watching the trio - why then would a cryptic cave wall graffito be necessary. Surely the warning could be delivered more directly. I posted on an earlier thread about my belief that the symbols being entoptics and I think I was probably a bit too ambitious considering how the plot has developed. Nevertheless, here could be a clue to the remembrance of lives past and the striking commonality of the trio's recollection. If as I suggested, such symbols are hard-wired, this can be more simply explained. Of course, there is also the possibility of 'genetic memory' - the concept that hereditable material encodes far more than simply biological function. I'm resistant to the idea that the 'essence' (whatever that may be) could be the transmitting agent - it just seems too ephemeral. Alternatively, subliminal training in the pods or a guide (like Harding) perhaps? If the latter, this would (as oters have suggested) explain the clear difference between Tess and the trio in terms of emotional development. As to why the trio can't shapeshift - to keep them hidden in plain sight? Well, I've run out of steam for the moment. amx Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-21-2000 06:49 AM quote: Originally posted by LSS You know, I've been trying to figure out what might be the advantage of having your future leader in a body that cannot shapeshift (given that everyone else--friend and foe--can). Rattlebox--any suggestions? ************** As for Tess--I've tried and tried to avoid thinking that Tess is anything other than what she says she is--simply because part of me wants her to be a fake (sorry Mala--but you know where I stand on this). This is one time I'll be glad to be proved wrong! LSS The issue of why Max was reincarnated as a human instead of as a shapeshifter puzzles me as well - not only does it seem unlikely that a species would accept as leader a representative of another species, it seems like a huge advantage to give up without good reason. My current favorite theory is that Max was made mostly human so that it would be possible for humanity to accept him as a leader in the struggle against Howie's B-Boys. Why do I think the B-Boys might be after humanity? Well, first, there just seemed like there were far too many beepers going off to represent a limited campaign to catch the podsters - the resource investment would be staggeringly out of proportion to the job at hand. Second, I keep going back to Nesedo-Harding's comment about the human brain being on the verge of becoming a truly powerful instrument - it seems plausible to me that the B-Boys, recognizing a potential threat on the horizon, might act early to eliminate it. (Of course, this doesn't take into account the difficulties involved in trans-galatic travel, but that's a different discussion.) In Destiny, Mom says "Our enemies have come to the Earth. You will know them only by the evil within. Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us. And that I may once again hold you both in my arms. I live for that moment. Help us. I love you." Note she does acknowledge the presence of B-Boys on earth, but she says nothing about them returning to lead their previous clan. (btw - they must live an awfully long time on Planet Mom, if she expects to still be around for the liberation party.) ***************** I also believe Tess to be basically who she claims - the fourth podster. If she isn't, then it throws into doubt large parts of what we've accepted as true, and as of yet there is no really solid evidence to suspect her. What I was trying to say about her is that, not only can she fabricate reality in a way that her target is powerless to detect, she is a spectacular liar. (As compared to Liz, who is perhaps the worst liar I've ever seen - watch her trying to lie in Pilot - utterly transparent.) Since Tess is so good at deception, everthing she says must be treated with caution. Now it appears that she can't read the book, but is that true? We won't really know till we know what the book says - it may reveal something that she'd just as soon the podster's didn't know. [Edited by Rattlebox on 06-21-2000 at 07:30 AM] Karst   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 110    -- 06-21-2000 08:49 AM Regarding Riverdog's suspicions of Max: The trend of the discussion seems headed this way, but this particular idea doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet. What if Riverdog is afraid Max is an evil alien? The way he warns Liz about trusting him - after Max has made the light, and shown he is not entirely human - makes me think Riverdog knows something about evil aliens. I thought at first he might have become suspicious of Nasedo after the Atherton incident, because of the way he fulfills the letter of his promise and no more, but then he is much more friendly to Michael. So however Atherton came to die, Nasedo doesn't seem to see Nasedo as evil because of it. Maybe it is Michael's loneness that reassures Riverdog. Perhaps Nasedo didn't fully explain that there were plans for more than one to come asking questions. We need more information on how friendly Riverdog and Nasedo were, and how much Nasedo revealed. Finally, regarding the idea that a race of shapeshifters might not accept people such as Max, who cannot shapeshift: I still like my idea (which I posted on another thread) that Nasedo is an android. Max's people may not be shapeshifters at all. (I originally used the android theory to explain why Nasedo couldn't die.) shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-21-2000 08:54 AM quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox quote: Originally posted by LSS You know, I've been trying to figure out what might be the advantage of having your future leader in a body that cannot shapeshift (given that everyone else--friend and foe--can). Rattlebox--any suggestions? LSS ...(btw - they must live an awfully long time on Planet Mom, if she expects to still be around for the liberation party.) Possibly Max's Mom & Co. figured the exiles would stand a better chance of surviving among the earthlings if they were not so... well, alien in form. Also, as Rattlebox mentioned, it would take an awful long time in terms of human life for the mission to be accomplished, hence the need for procreation among the podsters, whose engineering no doubt would then have included future generations carrying the "essences." I would then suggest that when they return to Home Planet, the essences would be set free of the human bodies altogether [disclaimer here: this would be the Home planet agenda; I hope the script writers et al plan to use this as a mere obstacle to the greater purpose of Max & Liz's romance--though perhaps Max will impregnate Tess, but marry Liz and have other children, which would certainly tweak the plot in terms of heirs to the throne, etc.]. Someone (was it Loralei or someone in BehrAll's recent thread?) put forth the very logical idea that the podlings were originally intended to emerge as adults. Perhaps the protector role of Nasedo (and the other 3 aliens in his ship) was a plan B when the ship crashed and M,I,M (and T?) were born premature at age 6. One other thought: Perhaps RD has learned to shapeshift--like the Sorcerer's Apprentice/Teachings of Don Juan--and needs the Tic Tacs when he does it (hmmm...ginseng flavored Tic Tacs? ew. No, Tabasco flavored--shudder.) Nasedo may have apprenticed RD to fill the gap for the 2 dead Protectors. [Edited by shapeshifter on 06-21-2000 at 09:00 AM] Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-21-2000 09:58 AM quote: Originally posted by Karst Regarding Riverdog's suspicions of Max: The trend of the discussion seems headed this way, but this particular idea doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet. What if Riverdog is afraid Max is an evil alien? The way he warns Liz about trusting him - after Max has made the light, and shown he is not entirely human - makes me think Riverdog knows something about evil aliens. I was thinking along these lines as well - I suspect there is still much to be told of the Atherton-Riverdog-Nesedo story. Anyway - here's a thought that I haven't seen yet - What if Nesedo (or both Nesedos, if it turns out to be two) are renegade evil aliens? This would make sense on two levels - first strategically, if you are trying to smuggle something through enemy lines, it makes sense to use spies. Second, it helps resolve the disconnect which has been bothering me: on one hand we have the image of the angelic mom alien, as well as the basic goodness we have come to recognize in the pod squad, and, on the other hand, the more than ample evidence of "inner evil" we have witnessed in Nesedo - the way he almost gleefully kills, the way he used Liz, the fact that Hank was apparently tortured before he died, and the turning on and murder of his friend Atherton. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-21-2000 10:30 AM quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox quote: ...on the other hand, the more than ample evidence of "inner evil" we have witnessed in Nesedo - the way he almost gleefully kills, the way he used Liz, the fact that Hank was apparently tortured before he died, and the turning on and murder of his friend Atherton. Good Morning Rattlebox! I have long toyed with the evil alien/Mr. Harding possibility--especially since the interior glimpses Liz sees when kissing Nesedo/Max (of the dead woman) also seem to bear this out. The only qualms I have (and they are not very strong ones) are: 1) Nesedo honestly seems to care for Tess, and 2) Nesedo looks relieved and pleased when Max takes command. BTW--it just occured to me...Nesedo/Harding has had NO positive contact with Isabel as alien has he? I mean he has worked with Michael in The White Room, and we have that exchange between Max and Nesedo/Harding in the cave. But the only time he has come into contact with Isabel was the time she came over to visit and everything was still hush-hush at that point. In fact, he was decidedly NOT happy that she is over. Perhaps we just haven't had enough narrative time for the two to interact in an alien to alien way? Perhaps Isabel presents a threat to Nesedo? Or perhaps, as a woman, he discounts her importance (Grrr)? Curious. LSS [Edited by LSS on 06-21-2000 at 10:35 AM] Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-21-2000 11:13 AM Speculation on why River Dog likes Michael more than Max. I can understand his fear and coldness to an alien that shows up 40 years after he saw another one murder somebody who was supposed to be a friend. For all he knew, it could have been Nasedo coming back to test him. I read what someone said about how RD reacted to Max and Isabel being in the woods at the symbol. Are his elderly eyes just not that good to recognize them in the dark? Was he maybe afraid that each did not want the other there, and he was going to get in the middle of a silver slugfest?(I haven't seen that episode yet. It was pre-WB on my cable system.) Maybe he felt responsible for almost killing Michael with the sweat and not being on hand right away to help him with the stones. He knew that Michael was hoping he would be another alien and possibly his father. He has seen Michael's homelife (I think) and may just feel sorry for him all way around. I did not see him show any particular dislike to Max in Balance. I think he realizes now that the podsters are not bad, and may warm up to them in the future. Lala79 Level 1 Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 20    -- 06-21-2000 11:42 AM Originally posted by LSS You know, I've been trying to figure out what might be the advantage of having your future leader in a body that cannot shapeshift (given that everyone else--friend and foe--can). I've also wondered why the podsters were cloned with human dna. I'm sure that the home planet was advanced enough to do a regular cloning without adding the extra dna. So why the necessity for the pod squad to be part human. Could it be that the key to defeating the evil aliens lies in their human abilities. Maybe I missed the explanation as to why the were created with human dna but it has got to have some sort of major significance. Hopefully we'll find out in season 2. This is sort of off topic there sure is a lot of stuff that they are going to have to squeeze in season 2. I don't think that 13 episodes will be enough. Just thought I'd mention that. lala Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-21-2000 11:46 AM I think that River Dog is mistrustful toward all involved when they first meet him... and who could blame him? He befriends a "visitor" , who in turn befriends Atherton and seems to trust him, then the "visitor" turns on his friend (Atherton) and kills him...outright betrayal. Of course, we don't know why Nasedo killed Atherton, yet. But we do know that River Dog knows about the killing. I don't think he mistrusts Max personally, if you know what I mean, he just mistrusts any "visitor". However, it is puzzling that he would agree to carry out Nasado's wishes, knowing that he murdered Atherton. There may be even more that River Dog knows that has not yet been revealed. I think that it appears that he warmed up to Michael maybe because he bonded with him through the healing (whoever proposed this first, I agree). He didn't trust him at first, after all, he failed the test. But later, when he comes to Michael (Into the Woods), he tells him about the sighting. Maybe he now knows and trusts Michael a little more, or maybe he was the first of the trio that he ran across. There are still a lot of questions about River Dog's role in all this...hopefully they will not drop him as part of the story and will explain all this (I can hear Ricky Ricardo in my head... "Writers...you got some 'splainin' to do"). jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-21-2000 02:47 PM hi there, re: riverdog. i would expect riverdog to be ambivalent about all the podsters...chances are he knows some stuff he hasn't yet shared. however i imagine there is so much that he KNOWS he doesn't know, that he might have very mixed feelings about the whole situation. especially if his interactions with nasedo have caused him to have to lead a life of secrets and alienation from his own community. michael's apparent vunerabilities may make him less threatening to riverdog? (in that michael seems to be more overt about his responses to people and situations?) re: shapeshifting podsters. i agree about the importance of the podsters human component in the sci-fi story line. most likely their humanity is the most powerful weapon against the 'bad aliens'. the podsters ability to manipulate molecules doesn't neccessarily give them the option of shapeshifting? or is shapeshifting 'molecule manipulation writ large' either way, perhaps the ability to 'totally shift shape' would cost the podsters too much as far as their humanity is concerned jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 06-21-2000 at 02:57 PM] Elliott   --Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 936    -- 06-21-2000 03:07 PM Regarding the whole question of why River Dog seemed/seems to distrust Max while favoring Michael: Why assume that River Dog is a good guy and is exactly what HE seems to be? Frankly, my response to him was based on Old Hollywood Movies 101 -- anyone who dislikes/distrusts the hero is a bad guy. The fact that River Dog could dislike our Max made me feel he might be up to no good, a suspicion fueled by his cultivation of Michael, which struck me as sheer opportunism, since Michael was emotionally needy and easy to manipulate. Max is not. If River Dog were somehow in league with Nasedo, it makes sense he would warn Liz off of Max since he may have known that Tess was meant for Max instead. It will be interesting to see how new producer Ron Moore puzzles this stuff out. Even if there was a bible which explained all this stuff, he may decide to take a different route with these characters than was originally intended. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-21-2000 03:58 PM Hi LSS, Good Evening! quote: Originally posted by LSS I have long toyed with the evil alien/Mr. Harding possibility--especially since the interior glimpses Liz sees when kissing Nesedo/Max (of the dead woman) also seem to bear this out. The only qualms I have (and they are not very strong ones) are: 1) Nesedo honestly seems to care for Tess, and 2) Nesedo looks relieved and pleased when Max takes command. * * * * BTW--it just occured to me...Nesedo/Harding has had NO positive contact with Isabel as alien has he? I mean he has worked with Michael in The White Room, and we have that exchange between Max and Nesedo/Harding in the cave. But the only time he has come into contact with Isabel was the time she came over to visit and everything was still hush-hush at that point. In fact, he was decidedly NOT happy that she is over. Perhaps we just haven't had enough narrative time for the two to interact in an alien to alien way? Perhaps Isabel presents a threat to Nesedo? Or perhaps, as a woman, he discounts her importance (Grrr)? Curious. I think you are right, if Nesedo-Harding is an example of an b-boy, (beeper boy), there's more to him than that. He gives every appearance of being heavily invested in the survival of the podsters, even at obvious risk to himself. Although he does seem to care for Tess, he seems very ill suited to the role - and he truly seemed to relish the prospect of taking on the role of Pierce. **** As to Nesedo-Harding's relationship to Isabel - I too noticed some of the odd notes along the way, beginning with the distinctly not funny "joke" (If I told you that, I'd have to kill you), continuing with the sharp remarks in the kitchen, and including his tendency to ignore her whenever possible. Also, there doesn't seem to be any love lost the other way - even after sitting for hours in frustration over their inability to save Max in the WR, Isabel is still not fully ready to trust him - telling Michael that they don't really know anything about him. Still, despite all that, I'm not ready to conclude there something definitely there yet. The Joke could have just been an example of Nesedo's often exhibited tendency to play with people's minds. (I think that's what he was doing with Liz after he found her snooping in the picture-file box - if that whole scene wasn't a setup. But don't get me started on that...) The remark in the kitchen might have seemed more reasonable to us as viewers if we hadn't long ago concluded that the FBI was actually more of a threat to itself than anyone we cared about. (Maybe the other Nesedo was distracting them by shapeshifting into various members of the squad and leading them on wild goose chases. At any rate, they definitely seemed like a non-factor after BB, right up to MtM.) And the tendency to ignore her might really have been just a function of the rushed pace of the final episodes. shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-21-2000 05:41 PM quote: Originally posted by Karst [and others with same idea] Regarding Riverdog's suspicions of Max:...The way he warns Liz about trusting him ... No! No! No! Check your tapes (mental or physical), it's: RIVER DOG: Wait, wait. You're not one of them. MAX: Liz? RIVER DOG: Make sure he deserves your trust. I realize that while pursing my overzealousity to make my point you all have probably realized this already, but just in case not, I'm posting it. Karst   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 110    -- 06-21-2000 05:52 PM Rattlebox: I think you're right about the rushed nature of the last episodes, and the difficulty of making final conclusions. We don't have to get into arguments over whether authorial intent counts or not - there are enough gaps in the episodes as presented that there is obviously stuff going on that we can only guess about. To go back to the problem of Riverdog and his attitudes to Max and Michael, and similar things: an ever-present feature of the show has been careful development of the romances/characters (until the SF became too dominant), while the SF seemed to have no overriding plan. Even when more SF was added, a coherent approach to all the extra SF didn't seem to be part of the parcel. When I read or watch other SF, it has a certain "feel" to me. Other people certainly have different reactions to the ensemble of elements, but to me each combinations of science facts used, devices extrapolated, and so on, create a unique atmosphere for the book/show. I'm afraid I don't get a really firm feel for the SF part of Roswell (unlike the romance/character parts). I'm slipping into a discussion of authorial intent (namely, is there one, and is there a narrative without authorial intent?). But given the gaps in the narrative, I'm inclined to say the narrative itself defeats analysis of its SF elements. Or I should say "definitive analysis." I like to speculate, too, so I'm not criticising anyone for speculating. I love reading all these posts. But my own personal opinion is that all is contingent on Mr. Moore and the next season. If he provides a more coherent paradigm for the SF, then something more substantial could be worked out. Or maybe my head is just starting to spin, and I want the world to stop for a while. If you were having fun, try to ignore me and go back to what you were doing. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-21-2000 06:14 PM Just some more wierd ideas to throw out at you all: First, to backtrack, I believe TICTAC(Hank-killer/Hispanic/Doctor) and Nasedo(Harding/Max/Pierce) are different individuals with different personalities and with perhaps different job assignments on their mission. Tictac would seem to make a great dad. He tortured Hank and killed him for being a poor one. He was very calm and reassuring to the group as Dr. Margolian(sp) as if he truly wanted to spare them stress and he would handle the problem himself. As the man standing over M/L on the desert, he looked pleased with Max, maybe even proud (on finding the orb or spending the night on a blanket with an earth chick?) What if his original assignment was to have posed as a father for one or more podsters? What went wrong that he didn't? What if he had seen M/I in a safe, happy home and desided not to disturb them? M/I didn't see Michael for 3 years - did Tictac and/or Nasedo also lose track of him? Was his foster home at the time not so bad? When Tictac discovered how bad the current home was and saw the desparate signal, he interviened covertly. I can't see Nasedo/Harding as having the right temperment to have been the designated Daddy. Maybe for one in a pinch. Not for four squealing 6 year olds jumping on the furniture and playing with their powers - I think he would of burst some alien arteries. His job may have been to do the actual engineering or incubating and act as a guard for the "families" as they grew up. If he and Tictac were separated and each thought the other was dead, maybe Nasedo desided he'd have to do it himself, and Tictac was unaware, or unable to join him. Maybe the cave markings were the message, "Hey, waited for you. Started already. Try to get hold of me by following this map." Instead Michael finds it and sends the signal. When Pierce said in WR that four were captured, two dead, two alive, one escaped, I was struck by the odd way he put it. You don't "capture" the dead. It made me think he was differentiating between picked up and not-picked up. I think from his way of putting it, there was at least one more alien not nabbed by the military in 1947. This may be a trivial thing, but the orb which was burried by the tower was fairly deep and we saw visions of it being burried. Before this in the visions, we see a soldier giving chase. If you are trying to elude someone and keep them from obtaining the important object you are carrying, you don't stop to burry it infront of them, giving them time to capture you and the object. Obviously, the alien had gotten clear of the military to burry the orb. Tictac was the shapeshifter standing over Max and Liz in the morning. Perhaps he is the one that got away. Had some more goofy ideas, but this was getting too long. I'm not sure I even stated these too clearly. Sometimes I think between the lines. Karst   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 110    -- 06-21-2000 06:19 PM I'm editing this posting down, since it is in response to a posting that itself got edited away. It seems posters can't entirely delete their own posts anymore. Or I made a mistake. [Edited by Karst on 06-24-2000 at 01:47 PM] amx   --Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 306    -- 06-21-2000 07:11 PM I'm afraid I have to agree with Karst's reading of the River Dog/Liz exchange. What River Dog is clearly trying to do is encourage Liz to question where her loyalties do and should lie. He is asking her to evaluate the basis on which she has entered the cave (a metaphor for their whole relationship perhaps) and decide whether it is sufficient. Equally clearly her answer is YES! The idea that Max/Michael somehow (as distinct physical types) embody the good/evil dichotomy, which is what RD reacts to, was alluded to in my first post. But, Elliot you raise an interresting point. The ambivalnece in Michael's character has been discussed on more than one occasion, particularly as a lever against the group. His susceptibility to people who show an interest, irrespective of what others think, is demonstrated by his single-minded pursuit of Nesedo and ultimate willingness to accept Harding with the least difficulty. I'm not quite sure where this leads, though! amx shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-21-2000 07:29 PM amx, whoops! you are *RIGHT* I will delete my memory hogging img. amx   --Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 306    -- 06-21-2000 07:50 PM shapeshifter, perhaps modify rather than delete - being a complete computer illiterate (smilies are usually beyond me) I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can create images like that (especially within posts)! Your interpretation at the very least got me thinking. The cave as metaphor hadn't occurred to me until I began composing a reply. Now I'm becoming more attached to it - so does Max's 'glow' indicate that there is indeed 'light at the end of the tunnel'? amx LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-21-2000 07:51 PM On a short joyous personal note: I've got to say this is a miracle...when I restored my computer after the crash I lost some file that runs Netscape normally. But for some reason known only to the Cosmic Powers that Be my backup bookmark links are still "live". So I can't go anywhere but my bookmarks...and even then I'm going through Netscape 2.0. But....whoohoo...I'm back! ******************************************** quote: Originally posted by Karst Rattlebox: I think you're right about the rushed nature of the last episodes, and the difficulty of making final conclusions. We don't have to get into arguments over whether authorial intent counts or not - there are enough gaps in the episodes as presented that there is obviously stuff going on that we can only guess about. .... Even when more SF was added, a coherent approach to all the extra SF didn't seem to be part of the parcel.... I'm afraid I don't get a really firm feel for the SF part of Roswell (unlike the romance/character parts). ....But given the gaps in the narrative, I'm inclined to say the narrative itself defeats analysis of its SF elements. Or I should say "definitive analysis." I Couldn't agree with you more. Truthfully, I think we have been far more intentional about taking Roswell's SF framework seriously than have the show's writers! But--and I know you didn't want to talk about this--once the story left the writer's hands it acquired a kind of life of its own apart from authorial intent. And it is fun to look at it from one angle and then turn and observe it from another. Whether or not the wordsmiths will ever pick up on what we observe from our scrutiny, of course, is anyone's guess. Whether the gaps we so often observe are intentional or evidence of sloppiness, and whether the connections we "see" are proof of narrative craft or just our imaginations--only time will tell!!! I do hope that Moore will "tighten" up the SF of the show. (Having a mixed genre (romance/SF) can't be easy.) But with a "tighter" structure next Fall perhaps we can REALLY do that close analysis you crave!!! LSS shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-21-2000 09:09 PM quote: Originally posted by amx shapeshifter, perhaps modify rather than delete - being a complete computer illiterate (smilies are usually beyond me) I have nothing but admiration for anyone who can create images like that (especially within posts)! Your interpretation at the very least got me thinking. The cave as metaphor hadn't occurred to me until I began composing a reply. Now I'm becoming more attached to it - so does Max's 'glow' indicate that there is indeed 'light at the end of the tunnel'? amx amx, you are too kind. But I have taken your suggestion since the FF server is not letting me edit or delete at the moment. I would still love to see the *original* script (the transcripts on FF, I believe, are taken from the tapes). I still think it could have been the other way, and they left it in since the actors did it well. Re: the light at the end of the tunnel: on other threads there has been much talk of the symbolism of Max bringing light to darkness. He certainly is a *good* character, without guile, so to speak. I guess that's why I think RD read his lines wrong. But this may have been foreshadowing of the Evil Max appearance. PuddyDayTat Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 22    -- 06-21-2000 09:43 PM I generally don't read the Science Fiction of threads but I have read the last couple and I find I now have more questions than I have answers. This thread is extremely interesting and very thought provoking. I liked the idea that there are two Nasedos, the good one was the one that escaped from the FBI and the one we know as Hardy was the one tortured by the FBI. What it made me wonder though is. The people in charge of the FBI, who are they? Could they be evil aliens who have infiltrated and have been using the FBI to find the Pod Squad. The alien they had in custody didn't know where the Pod Chamber was so he couldn't give them the needed information so they just tortured him, kind of scary thought. Then after so long they let him go in hopes he would unintentionally lead them to the Pod Squad. Could Pierce be one of the evil aliens? The way he seemed to get such pleasure out of torturing Max, sent chills down my spine. The thing with him that really surprised me was when he was shocked by Max's reation to seeing the image of Liz hurt. Almost like he thought that the aliens would be as cold hearted as he was. Is it possible that the shooting was done deliberately to make the Pod Squad reveal themselves? It looked like the gun was deliberately aimed in Liz's direction. In Sexual Healing when they wake up in the desert and that guy is watching them from the rock. Isn't he the same guy we saw in the car at the end of Independance Day? Could he be the good alien who has been watching over them all this time? He just shapeshifts every so often so that he won't become familiar. Nasedo is a puzzle. If, as Tess says, they have been traveling all this time (10 years) and he has been working for the government, something is missing. They seem to be very materialistic. All those pictures of Max where were they that they could have taken them? How long have they been in town? Can Tess shapeshift? What if the aliens came to earth to get the DNA and then they were on their way back to their home planet or some other part of the universe and the ship was sabotaged by one of the 4 aliens on the ship. When it crashed who moved the Pods to the cave? River dog is also a puzzle. I don't think he is afraid of Max I think he is just leary, he senses his ability. I think he knows that Michael isn't quite as accomplised as Max with his powers so he feels more comfortable around him. The cave paintings I think are just what they say they are. It's a map. I just don't know if it's a map on how to get back to their planet or a map to lead them to the things they will need to help them learn and protect. The one that really has me wondering the book in the library. How old is that Library? Who put the book there and when? Did tess know that Max was watching her? If Tess has been with Nasedo all these years and it has just been the two of them she should know how to read that language, but should her transalation be trusted? I find the whole book thing very convenient. Oh, look, we have a book and it says that Max and Tess should be together and Michael and Isabel should be together for the purpose of mating. How could they have known, when the book was written, what they would look like? They took alien essense and mixed it with human material and made little test tube babies, who were then placed into pods to incubate. I'm confused I will never get to sleep tonight, my head is buzzing. Didn't mean to write so much but there are just too many questions that lead to more questions etc, etc. Good Night PDT amx   --Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 306    -- 06-21-2000 10:07 PM shapeshifter - too kind? I don't think so - but you are very welcome anyway. It would inded have raised other interesting possibilities has the trust question been phrased as you suggest (ie reversed). As it stands, however, with our post-Destiny (or is that Tess-tiny?) hindsight, the excahnge very neatly presages some of the trust issues that later arise in the Liz/Max relationship. On foreshadowing the Evil Max - perhaps, but viewed from River Dog's perspective the explanation may be more straightforward. As a youngster, RD has seen one of what he presumes (at least I think) is Max's kind, whom he describes as befriending the tribe, kill. Even though RD admits to not knowing the detail of this incident, it surely created an indelible impression and may have caused the young RD to re-evaluate his position on the Visitors. Without any intervening more positive experience, this could simply be colouring his perception of Max. As to the Max/light/Messiah - yes I am aware of that discussion, hence I didn't go into it in a lot of detail. My closing comment was a bit of a throw-away actually! I am, though, one of those who preferred to be teased with hints and clues as to Max's nature rather than the Mom-o-gram shouting it from the rooftops apporach of Destiny. amx Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-22-2000 06:48 AM Oooo...Oooo... Oooo... Insight! When I woke up this morning and fumbled my way down to the kitchen, urged on by two especially energized cats, I found the source of their concern. Over night it appears that a colony of ants had discovered the two bowls of food I leave on the floor to stave off the hunger pangs my boys always seem to experience at 3:00 AM. Watching the industrious little marauders ferry chunks of excessively expensive cat chow across the floor, it occurred to me that not all species feature the relatively even distribution of abilities that ours does. Ants, for instance, come in several classes-there are worker ants, breeder ants and soldier ants. (Actually, my knowledge of ants is limited, by and large, to what I picked up by watching the movie Antz, so if I'm not strictly correct here - I apologize. I don't think it really matters to my point - which is coming up anytime now, I promise!) So, what I was thinking is, what if Shapeshifter-mom's culture is built around specialized types - like ants. Wouldn't they then be predisposed to mirror their culture in the psychic/special ability makeup of the podsters - wouldn't that be part of their so-called essence? This would also explain further what the roles of the guardian/parent aliens who crashed might have been-as well as some of the observed character differences between the nesedos. The aliens who crashed might have been each masters of the skill manifested by our podsters, and part of their jobs was to teach the four reincarnated leaders to fully use their special abilities. Now, with this set of assumptions, it seems clear to me that Nesedo-Harding is a warrior type, like Michael. (Remember, they both seem able to "throw" bolts of energy, they both seem predisposed to action, though sometimes not well thought out action. So the fatherly feel when he is instructing Michael.) Tic-tac? We don't really know enough about him yet to conclude much, but if the kind voice we heard in Crazy was an indication, I'd guess a healer like Max, although you can't ever rule out the illusionist (Trickster?) like Tess. This also brings up the question of just what exactly are their special abilities? The easy ones are Michael-Warrior, and Tess-Illusionist. But what about Max, is he only a healer? Or does it go further? And Isabel - she has shown the ability to dreamwalk, which in the later episodes expanded into the ability to see inside others minds even when they are awake. Is that her special ability? To see into the souls of others? (Might be awfully useful for detecting B-Boys(Bad Boys)!) Perhaps that is why Nesedo-Harding is uncomfortable around her - I'm not sure I'd be comfortable around someone from whom I could hide nothing either. And here's one for those Riverdog-as-Nesedo fans - Riverdog seems to display some of this talent for seeing deep into the minds of others as well - remember how he diagnosed Liz's fear in the healing ceremony. (Of course, since as humans we all are supposed to hold the potential for this sort of thing, Riverdog may just as well simply represent a evolutionarily advanced human.) So what is the implication of this for the Michael-Riverdog-Max question? When Riverdog shows Max the wall message, Max only vaguely gets a sense of recognition. Perhaps this confirms for Riverdog what he'd already suspected - that the message was not meant for Max. Michael, on the other hand is directly connected to the message - he knows it's a map, and he even has some luck in decoding it. He is also directly connected to Atherton somehow, as the key adventure shows. Clearly, the Riverdog-Atherton-Nesedo saga is Michael's business - and Riverdog seems to know it. (Just as an aside - what was the symbol burned into the ground in the Woods? Could that have been the sign of the Warrior clan? Wish I had that tape!) Anyway, some more stuff to chew on from Rattlebox. p.s. Maybe the B-Boys are mutated warrior shapeshifters - thus the similarity between Nesedo-Harding and what we would expect to find in a B-boy. [Edited by Rattlebox on 06-22-2000 at 06:56 AM] Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-22-2000 07:21 AM Wow, Rattlebox, the idea of sects or classes in the alien society would explain a lot of different things. We already know how different Nasedo (or Nasedos) is/are from the pod/squad. We know that he can hurl power and knock people across the room, that he can kill with a touch, that he can send batsignals, and he can shapeshift. What we haven't seen him demonstrate is the mind reading/dream walking thing, or the giving mental images to people thing. Maybe those are powers reserved for women, while the other more physical things are manly powers. I'm not saying this in any sort of sexist way, believe me... As to Nasedo/Max/Michael, I think that Nasedos mistrust of Max at the beginning is a natural outgrowth of having known and trusted Nasedo, then knowing that he murdered Atherton. RD learned a real lesson in misplaced trust and he is exercising caution. After the healing in Balance, he now knows a little more about them and is more willing to share info. Perhaps he is like the Valenti, Sr. of the Mesaliko tribe...everyone thinks he's a little nuts (especially the younger set), but now there is confirmation of what he has been saying in the form of the pod squad, so he goes to Michael when they have the sighting. (sorry for the run-on sentences but I have to leave for class in 9 minutes!!!). I can't remember what else I was going to say...so I'll have to come back to this later. Cheers. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-22-2000 10:18 AM Good Morning Rattlebox: Somewhere floating around in the nether regions of this board is a thread devoted to the discussion of our teens' Powers. I did not start it and am trying to remember who did. I think you would like to see it. I'll try to reconstruct one of my posts (an updated version that is)in which I tried to list the powers thus far seen: 1) Healing (M [humans & animals], Mi[humans]), NOTE: this may be considered a specialized form of molecular manipulation -- Max identifies it thusly in "Pilot" 2) Dreamwalking/Daywalking (I) 3) Illusionist (T) 4) Telekinesis (M) 5) Ability to "connect" and/or receive images (M, Mi, L) NOTE: this is the only power that has been experienced by a human (but only with Max or Max/Nesedo); Isabel's ability to dreamwalk/daywalk may be considered a variant of this 6) Ability to pick up residual images from objects (M, Mi) 7) Manipulation of Molecular structures (M, Mi, I, T) NOTE: this is the only power thus far shared by all. 8) Incidents not easily categorized: a) Whatever happened to Grandma Claudia; b) flashes that appear precognitive; and c) flashes that appear to represent the distant past--beyond the waking memory of the holder. BTW--that symbol is what is refered to on the boards as the "whirlwind" symbol. It has appeared thus far on: 1) the ground, 2) the pendant, 3) the orb, 4) the book, and 5) the projected symbol in the sky. (I haven't checked the message in the cave to see if it appears there). I do think that the alien society might well be stratified--but whether by class or by vocation is not clear. Nesedo seems subordinate to Max in the cave--but functions amost as superior to Michael in The White Room. Whether this reflects their social or vocational status, however, I don't know. And how the female aliens fit in this stratification is also unclear. Tess alternately seems superior and subordinate. And Isabel--well as I said before, she remains a mystery. BTW--in an interviews Katims was asked when Max or Michael will dreamwalk. He answered that they "can't". This evoked a conversation as to whether some powers are gender specific (this was before Tess). Now it seems that I and T's powers are different. UNLESS--you argue that they are variants of the same power (the ability to enter a person's mind from a distance without physical contact)--Isabel can receive images from minds without touching them while Tess can implant images in people's minds without touching the individuals. LSS jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-22-2000 10:29 AM hi there, wow! very cool idea rattlebox. it makes a lot of sense, espcially given lss's last post about the powers/abilities. it also gives credence to the general confusion and discrepancies...maybe a case of boundaries that have become too rigid between the types/castes? depending on the the age of the alien culture, one sign of disentagration would be such rigid adherance to the caste system that independent thinking, and problem solving go down the drain. this might account of a lot of nasedo's behavior as well as the flaws inherent in the original plan? jenlev LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-22-2000 11:23 AM POSTSCRIPT: In my last post I noted that Tess' relationship with Harding/Nesedo varies from quasi-dominance to subordination, whereas Max's exchange in the cave (and in the Hall of Mirrors) portrays Max as superior (in the Hall he argues with him at least as an equal if not one higher in stature). It just occured to me that, depending on the social structure of Max's planet, Tess--as his former wife--might share Max's status. This might be the source of the authority we sometimes hear in her voice with Harding/Nesedo. Having power in relation to one's title, however, is different from commanding respect from your followers. Tess has not yet acquired the latter--even Max won't follow her suggestion for the four to go back to the cave. And when she "orders" Michael to return for Nesedo, he refuses to obey her. Phaedra   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 255    -- 06-22-2000 12:28 PM quote: Originally posted by LSS 4) Telekinesis (M) LSS Max is telekinetic? My mind must be melted - I can't recall the episode this is from. Could you clue me in? October   --Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 148    -- 06-22-2000 12:59 PM Love these threads, but have only posted on them once before. Thought I'd at least add some answers to above posts: 1. The symbol burned into the ground in ITW was the same whirlwind symbol on the pendant and what Max/Is drew in the sand. 2. Max demonstrated telekinesis in the Convention, when he caused Hubble's gun to project away from Hubble's hand when they were wrestling at the diner. 3. Michael healed Riverdog's leg in ITW-but did not seem to need to make eye contact while he did it, unlike Max healing Liz. He also only rec'd flashes of Riverdog coming to get him earlier that evening-not any of Riverdog's childhood, again unlike M/L. He healed the leg thru Riverdog's jeans, not needed to touch the skin, again unlike M/L, but like Max healing Kyle in Destiny. These could all be a result of the plot inconsistancies that have been discussed at length everywhere, but are interesting, nonetheless. All times are PT(US) Author Topic: The Science Fiction of River Dog Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-22-2000 02:17 PM Wow! Cool stuff. The idea of the cast system sounds good. Maybe the powers of the bad aliens will be different still, if they have any. The town of Roswell could get pretty hot with a silver slugfest in the streets.(Intertainment of the week - Mercury Mud Wrestling). It would be interesting to see if Nasedo and Tictac have differences in powers as well as personalities. They made it almost clear that Nasedo was the alien that escaped the FBI, maybe Tictac was the one that was held for three years. Did he get away eventually? Is Nasedo aware of it? Is Tictac working for the FBI? - maybe as a double agent? It still bothers me about Topolsky being picked up and the MD shrink. Even though M/I/Mi/T seem to have different powers (maybe even due to their personalies and different experimentation experiences), it makes you wonder if in the beginning of second season they may be trying to teach each other power usage. If they have limited sets of abilities that overlap each other, it may support the cast theory. About the whirlwind symbol, the symbol on the book and that M/I made in front of the library match, but are different than the one on the pendant and in the sky. About the homeworld. If the homeworld were enslaved, there would probably not be a beloved leader at the same time - they would blame him. What if he was killed to make room for the opposing forces? Martyrdom would help with being beloved among the people. It would have been hard to get the DNA and essences out of the while under the close scrutiny of the oppressors, unless they were still fighting/solidifying their hold on the planet. In the confusion and scurmishes(sp),Nasedo, Tictac, and company smuggle out the tissue samples and head for a distant place the they feel would be safer, etc. Mommy Dearest spoke English and appeared human, so she knew where they were headed - the U.S. being safer and freer to hide in. Maybe the southwest being closest in climate to home or something to do with the Indians - maybe both. Bad guys find out where they went(spies, tails, random searches, whatever), and follow. Maybe the ship was shot down, was sabotaged by a teammate, or accidentally crashed in NM. Max is a threat not just in the terms of powers or leadership, but by just being a rallying point and symbol of hope. Maybe there are even religious connotations we would not understand on their homeworld. Theory about Tess. Probably marrages are arranged on their homeworld for the ruling class or royalty, whatever they are. What if Tess were a bad alien that was sacrificed in marrage to the good ruler(Max) to make peace? What if she had actually betrayed him and was responsible for his death, sacrificing her own life, or accidentally getting killed in the process? Nobody else knows yet, even her current self. OK, just some more goofy ideas. No proof. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-22-2000 04:16 PM quote: Originally posted by Palomino Wow! Cool stuff. About the whirlwind symbol, the symbol on the book and that M/I made in front of the library match, but are different than the one on the pendant and in the sky.[B/ QUOTE} Palomino: I think you are right about the book (I'll go back and edit my post) BUT the symbol on the ground to which I was referring was not the one in SH (library) but the one at the end of Into the Woods (in the forest). The latter is the whirlwind symbol. LSS Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-22-2000 04:22 PM Sorry if I am clogging the thread. I just thought I'd expand on an idea from the DNA thread. Also, for anybody that has a copy of Leaving Normal(I have never seen it), what does it explain about Grandma Claudia's book and the tie to the Native Americans? Anyhow, what if Max is important in Native American folklore? Either from a pre-1947 trip to obtain DNA, or a scouting trip, the aliens let drop a few hints about what they are going to do in the way of recreating a great leader who is dead. This enters him in Native American folklore, some of which might have been lost. HAS ANYONE ELSE NOTICED THAT THEY HAVE PLAYED NATIVE AMERICAN MUSIC/CHANTING IN EPISODES WHERE THERE WERE NO NATIVE AMERICANS? EXAMPLE: THE WHITE ROOM What if River Dog knows about it or part of it? What if he even saw Nasedo's book before it was hidden in the library? What if Nasedo made the mistake of letting RD and/or Atherton in on the secret? Maybe Atherton wanted to put it in his next book, or even try to get popular support for the aliens that Nasedo was fearful of, given his past experience with the U.S. government? If RD treatd Max differently, could it been out of fear/respect, because he knew something of his past or future from Native American folklore? How does Liz tie in? Will she be the earthling soulmate that can help him ID the enemy? Was she in the folklore and did Grandma know it?(Grandma seemed to take Max's projection help without surprise, and seemed to approve of Max.) Just throwing ideas around again. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-22-2000 04:24 PM Okay--this is getting spooky. I have now deleted a copy of this post three times. And I swear this was not here when I deleted the last one. Oh well. [Edited by LSS on 06-22-2000 at 09:31 PM] jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-22-2000 06:44 PM hi there, perhaps the caste system isn't based so much on superior/subordinate roles, but on classification of skills and roles. given the fact that this is an alien culture; they may not define ambition/sucess/fame etc. in the same way we do? in fact social stratification may be disconnected skills (and behavior?) of course this is making me crosseyed because i'm still waiting for season 2 in hope the writers actually tell us what they think of this alien culture! jenlev Nemo   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 421    -- 06-22-2000 07:05 PM For anyone who has missed an episode: notice the transcripts and slide shows on the Episodes page. Access is from the Crashdown front page or: http://www.crashdown.com/episodes There are also reviews, including several by LSS. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-22-2000 07:47 PM Michael also has telekinetic powers... albeit a little rough. If you define telekinesis the ability to move things without touching them, but by using the mind or some kind of force, he did make Hank move the rifle he was pointing at Max and Isabel in ID. He also managed to throw Pierce across the room in Destiny. If different types of powers belong to different classes, then this might be one belonging to the warrior class (or it is a male thing). Max, Michael, and Nasedo have all demonstrated this ability. As far as Max being the beloved leader, it does not necessarily mean that he was just a political leader. It could mean that he was a warrior-King, like the kings of the early Middle Ages. They won their right to rule by being awesome warriors. If this is so, it might be that he was killed in battle, along with Michael, and possibly Isabel (the missing lines where she was said to be a warrior also). I like the idea of Tess being possibly Max's wife as an arrangement to keep the peace. This was often done among warring tribes and kingdoms. It is possible then that she got caught in the crossfire, or was a traitor (I know, we just can't help but put Tess in a negative light, which is really unfair since we don't know the whole story yet). [Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 06-22-2000 at 07:52 PM] LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-22-2000 07:51 PM double post LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-22-2000 08:10 PM quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 Michael also has telekinetic powers... albeit a little rough....If different types of powers belong to different classes, then this might be one belonging to the warrior class (or it is a male thing). Max, Michael, and Nasedo have all demonstrated this ability. .... As far as Max being the beloved leader.... It could mean that he was a warrior-King, like the kings of the early Middle Ages. They won their right to rule by being awesome warriors. If this is so, it might be that he was killed in battle, along with Michael, and possibly Isabel (the missing lines where she was said to be a warrior also). I like the idea of Tess being possibly Max's wife as an arrangement to keep the peace. This was often done among warring tribes and kingdoms. It is possible then that she got caught in the crossfire, or was a traitor (I know, we just can't help but put Tess in a negative light, which is really unfair since we don't know the whole story yet). [Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 06-22-2000 at 07:52 PM] Well done! You are right about Michael -- I'd forgotten that scene in ID. And either as a power that is caste specific (warrior) or gender specific (male) it makes sense. And what you suggest about Tess and Max's marriage is also plausible (of course those elusive missing lines indicated something more--"love and inspiration" ... shudder ...sorry--the dreamgirl in me just pops out on this thread from time to time). But if she was a traitor the momogram is difficult to understand unless: 1) Mom didn't know of the betrayal or 2) the momogram has been "doctored" or 3) Tess isn't the young bride. LSS LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-22-2000 08:21 PM deleted double post Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-22-2000 08:49 PM LSS: When I had originally suggested that Tess had been an arranged marriage(maybe Max's side thought it was to keep peace, the others saw it as an opportunity to plant a traitor), I figured that she would pretend to decieve her mother-in-law as well as her husband. If she sacrificed herself in an attempt to get the four of them killed, perhaps no one was left that knew the truth, and Mommy still thinks she was a nice girl(the current Tess might not know any different either.) If Max married her to keep peace, then obviously this was before the planet was enslaved and his death opened the door for attack. I think I have a post on this matter either on this thread or "Representations and Interpretations", but I don't know to get them on this post. I'm not very good at this yet. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-22-2000 09:25 PM quote: Originally posted by Palomino LSS: When I had originally suggested that Tess had been an arranged marriage(maybe Max's side thought it was to keep peace, the others saw it as an opportunity to plant a traitor), I figured that she would pretend to decieve her mother-in-law as well as her husband. If she sacrificed herself in an attempt to get the four of them killed, perhaps no one was left that knew the truth, and Mommy still thinks she was a nice girl(the current Tess might not know any different either.) If Max married her to keep peace, then obviously this was before the planet was enslaved and his death opened the door for attack. You know--I really like your scenario. And if "our" Tess has no problem in deceiving others for her "destiny" then I can see her doing the same thing in the past for her people. And yes, "mom" might be in the dark about the betrayal. My problem is that I like it too much. It would explain why Max distrusts her (almost from the initial contact), why she has not been able to get even Isabel on her side, and why even Michael isn't really partial to her. But the best of all--it would nullify any prior romantic connection between her and Max--keeping our benevolent leader (aka Prince Charming) pristine in terms of emotional attachments. We could even hypothesize that the marriage had never been consumated (I'm liking this better and better). Sigh...No one would like it better if what you suggest is true. LSS (off to light a candle to the cosmic PTB that maybe--just maybe--you are right!) Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-22-2000 10:49 PM LSS: Thank you, and a question. Would their wedding vows have been "till death do us part", or "for all eternity". And can you hold a hybridized half clone to the vows he made in a past life and can't remember, when they were made to a similar creation? Maybe another reason he doesn't take to Tess(beyond her behavior), is that he has already bonded himself to a mate in this lifetime, and is truly incapable of loving anyone else in that manner. An observation was made some time ago that all but Tess were rather tall, straight haired, and had brown eyes. Tess sticks out like a sore thumb. Could she have been engineered with DNA that would set her apart in appearance for cast, family, or political delineation? How much varience is there in the aliens' natural form, shades, and hues? Could their alien DNA maybe affect their human appearances? Does Tess look different, because in her original form she may have been slightly different that the others? Interesting to speculate, but most likely a dead end. Ravings of a sleepy person. pixiedude   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 67    -- 06-22-2000 11:42 PM In Blind Date, Max goes from the sidewalk to the top of the movie marquee with no apparent physical effort on his part, so I guess that's teleportation. --Doug deidra e, jones   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 513    -- 06-23-2000 12:14 AM Why hasn't Nasedo visited his old friend River Dog? Maybe we will see more interaction between them next season, although I think River Dog is the key. I also think that Liz is very important to the sci-fi/mythology aspect of the aliens past and future. Of course all the aliens have enhanced powers. They will learn how to control and use them into order to prepare for the battle, the classic "g v e". LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-23-2000 05:56 AM quote: Originally posted by pixiedude In Blind Date, Max goes from the sidewalk to the top of the movie marquee with no apparent physical effort on his part, so I guess that's teleportation. --Doug Maybe not--when Kyle asks how he got up there Max mentions a ladder. When Kyle notes that there is no ladder--Max responds that there isn't one NOW. That could imply that Max "created" a ladder by molecular manipulation and then "disposed" of it when it had served its purpose. Of course we will probably never know for sure--but I think it could be argued from the script that the above is what happened. LSS Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-23-2000 06:22 AM Here's just a couple of quick thoughts - very busy all the sudden - what about yet-to-be-seen powers. Doesn't Nesedo instruct Michael to "scan" in the escape route? What else can they do without realizing it. (btw - an example of scanning can arguably be made when Max manipulates the statue in Pilot - he calls it molecular manipulation, but what is shown is a two step process whereby he scans the current form, stores it, manipulates the clay to hide it, and then restores it-okay that's more than two steps- but there is no evidence of change on a molecular level.) ***** The assumption has been made to this point that, under the strange elastic skin and flexible bone structure, the shapeshifters (at least Mom's folks) are pretty much the same as us. If we accept the notion of specialized function/ability - this presents a rather fundamental difference. (One of the key marks of humanity is that we are *not* specialized.) I wonder if this implies that their should me more bleedover of special abilities, character traits amongst the enhanced humans than is found among the shapeshifters. (Nesedo to Michael - "You're not what I was expecting either" - or words to that effect.) Yikes! I'm late - gotta go.... LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-23-2000 07:28 AM Morning Rattlebox! You wrote: "....what about yet-to-be-seen powers. Doesn't Nesedo instruct Michael to "scan" in the escape route? What else can they do without realizing it." I agree--especially since Max remarked to Michael in Destiny than they might not only be stronger than Pierce thinks -- but that they themselves know!!! And although Michael could not "scan" it is implied that he should be able to! ******************************************** YOU SAID: (btw - an example of scanning can arguably be made when Max manipulates the statue in Pilot - he calls it molecular manipulation, but what is shown is a two step process whereby he scans the current form, stores it, manipulates the clay to hide it, and then restores it-okay that's more than two steps- but there is no evidence of change on a molecular level.)" I'm not sure about this. I think that it is implied that there can be two types of molecular manipulation--one deals with substance (i.e. changing the meters into sparklers) the other deals with form (i.e., the statue, Michael's fingerprint, Michael and the lock, etc.). Scanning however seems to imply the transfer and storage of information. But I see what you mean--it is like the information of the statues form was erased (stored?) and then reimprinted. ******************************************** YOU SAID: "The assumption has been made to this point that, under the strange elastic skin and flexible bone structure, the shapeshifters (at least Mom's folks) are pretty much the same as us." No. Didn't Pierce make a special note of the fact that he was surprised that the internal examination of Max revealed NO anamolies because the other aliens' internal organs were so different? If "mom's" folks = Nesedo/Harding, then internally as well as externally (in their original state) they are different. allie0875 Level 1 Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 10    -- 06-23-2000 07:35 AM I thought I would de-lurk for a minute and throw out one of my theories that I have formed over the summer. This theory have been formed with help from the wonderful discussions that everyone has had on this board, so if it seems that I am taking anyones ideas and claiming them as my own that is not my intention. Well with that disclaimer said here I go: Riverdog's suspicions of Max: I think that Riverdog thought that Max might be Nasedo. I am assuming that Riverdog knew that Nasedo could shapeshift, but I don't know if that has been established by the show. Riverdog associates the pendant with Nasedo and Atherton and the last time he saw them Nasedo supposedly killed Atherton. Liz asked Nasedo "what does this pendant mean to you?" He said death. Maybe he thinks that Nasedo shapeshifted into Max to come test him and if he fails Nasedo's test that he will be killed like Atherton. That is why Riverdog told Liz to make sure he deserved her trust. The reason I think that Riverdog seem to accept Michael more is because he entered the sweat. Riverdog knows that Nasedo knew what would happen if he entered the sweat, whereas Michael didn't and entered it willingly. I hope this post makes sense because I am in a hurry to post this since I am about to leave for the weekend. If anyone has any insights I loved to hear them. Allie0875 LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-23-2000 07:41 AM quote: Originally posted by Palomino LSS: Thank you, and a question. Would their wedding vows have been "till death do us part", or "for all eternity". And can you hold a hybridized half clone to the vows he made in a past life and can't remember, when they were made to a similar creation? Maybe another reason he doesn't take to Tess(beyond her behavior), is that he has already bonded himself to a mate in this lifetime, and is truly incapable of loving anyone else in that manner. Ravings of a sleepy person. Well--if this is what you do when sleepy it bodes well for your waking hours!!! You raise some very important points. There are two very important questions that could be raised of our teens via that momogram: 1) to what extent does a clone have the legal (i.e. marriage) and moral (i.e. save the people) obligations of its genetic parent? 2) Why should the alien essence have priority (both legal and moral) over the human genetic material? I mean, it could be argued that M/Mi/I are at least as much the "children" of their human donor as of the their alien "mom". If they (the writers) pursue this it could function as a metaphor of multiculural issues in our own society. What happens when two cultures (or in this case, genetic materials) merge in one individual? Although the end result would seem to be "more than" it often happens that the individual is forced into an "either/or" situation. And of course--the idea that the aliens "mate for life" is intriguing--and solace to my dreamgirl heart (go Liz!). LSS LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-23-2000 07:54 AM quote: Originally posted by allie0875 I think that Riverdog thought that Max might be Nasedo....The reason I think that Riverdog seem to accept Michael more is because he entered the sweat. Riverdog knows that Nasedo knew what would happen if he entered the sweat, whereas Michael didn't and entered it willingly. Allie that is an interesting observation. I don't recall anyone having made that suggestion--they may have but I just don't remember it. And you are right about Michael. It is illogical that Nesedo would enter the sweat if he already knew its deadly ramifications. But he has no such guarentee about Max--in fact he has no guarentee except the fact that Max did not know the writing--but really, Max could have been faking that (as far as River Dog was concerned). Again--good observation! BTW--welcome to the SF threads! LSS Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-23-2000 06:42 PM quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox The assumption has been made to this point that, under the strange elastic skin and flexible bone structure, the shapeshifters (at least Mom's folks) are pretty much the same as us. If we accept the notion of specialized function/ability - this presents a rather fundamental difference. (One of the key marks of humanity is that we are *not* specialized.) I wonder if this implies that their should me more bleedover of special abilities, character traits amongst the enhanced humans than is found among the shapeshifters. (Nesedo to Michael - "You're not what I was expecting either" - or words to that effect.) Yikes! I'm late - gotta go.... I guess this should serve as warning - it's really best to actually *read* what you've typed before posting it-otherwise you might end up with something like this, which bears an unfortunately striking resemblance to gibberish! Oh well - Let's try again, shall we? () So what I was trying to say is, we know from Pierce's speech, and from the fact that Nesedo couldn't pass the X-ray portion of the entrance exam to the white room, and -oh yeah- from the fact that he could SHAPESHIFT, that internally Mom's folks are very different from us mere humans. But, the assumption I was working on was that emotionally and intellectually they are not that different from us. (Yes, I realize that there was quite a bit of discussion as to whether the emotional similarity was actually there - mostly sparked by Nesedo-Hardings' admonition to Michael that emotions are a "weakness." I think that was blown all out of proportion - when humans are trying to achieve maximum performance, emotions can get in the way. Tiger Woods talked about how the most difficult part of winning the US Open was controlling his emotions between holes. But I digress...) The point I was trying to make is that if the marked differences in abilities and temperaments we hypothesized might exist within the shapeshifter species were in fact not just a matter of training, or socialization, but were rather hardwired into their brains, much as sexuality appears to be hardwired into ours, this would represent a very significant cognitive difference between us. Humans, though we do have preferential abilities we call talents, can be trained to do, at least somewhat competently, just about anything humanly possible. Now, if all this is true, and admittedly we have jumped several steps away from a position directly supported by the evidence, one of the implications is that the enhanced humans (ie the podsters) may well demonstrate considerably more flexibility then their prototypes - the shapeshifters - in exhibiting "powers". (The shapeshifters may only be able to do what they were born to do, while the podsters may be able to learn related skills.) For instance, as LSS has pointed out in her skill inventory, the ability to dreamwalk and the ability to cast illusions seem on the surface to be related skills. It may be that a podster skilled at one may be able to relatively easily learn the other, while a shapeshifter might never make the transition. The increased flexibility might be one of the factors which persuaded the shapeshifters to reincarnate Max&Co as humans. But undoubtedly, this basic cognitive difference would color the emotional and psychological outlooks of the two species - shapeshifters may be true believers in destiny, while humans are far more likely to believe your destiny is what you choose to make it. So...I hope this makes more sense! Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-23-2000 08:00 PM Rattlebox : I got it. Sounds good. Do you think the podsters will be able to teach each other so they can all do the same things? One question, why do you think Nasedo did not teach Tess to do more, or even tell her that there WAS more? She seemed surprised about the dreamwalking, and I was surprised that she was surprised. The hardwiring idea is interesting. On the "Representations and Interpretations" thread, I just posted the idea that maybe they were in the pods so long for pre-programming of personality(since you don't want your great leader to be a cowardly, decietful, sissy or something). Perhaps that pre-programming stage had multiple uses? Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-24-2000 01:41 AM Wow... this is an intriguing line of thought. With your permission (well, in this forum I guess it's even without your permission ) let me build a little on what you said, Rattlebox. Nasedo told Michael that the human brain was an incredible machine that humans haven't even begun to use, and that when he was engineered they were given the capacity to do everything the human brain is capable of. AND he also said that their brains were programmed to be several thousand years ahead of where we are now. So... who ever engineered, created, whatever, our podsters knew about that flexibility factor, which is, as you postulated, probably the reason they chose to use human DNA and send the podlings to Earth. This also means that the brain functions of Nasedo and his race is different, and so may not have the capabilites that Max, Michael, Isabel and Tess do. AND... because he does not have all of their capabilities, he may not even know everything that it is possible for them to do. That would explain why Tess didn't know about Dreamwalking and perhaps other skills that the original three have. It might also explain why he acts a little strangely around them... he simply does not know all the possiblities. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-24-2000 02:35 AM .......But, he did admonish Michael for not being able to do more, since he had only scratched the surface of his abilities. Nasedo had expected more out of him. He said it like he knew of many more possibilities, of course, he might not know everything. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-24-2000 06:18 AM hi there, it makes good sense that the if the human brain has more built in flexibility that the concept of destiny would be quite different from the aliens perspective. this might contribute to the level of confusion (even fear) that nasedo and riverdog present? after all, they have been figuring out that things are not going to go as planned. makes me wonder if the origin of that involves atherton and nasedo's interaction? jenlev TeddyBehr_Y2K Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 40    -- 06-24-2000 07:40 AM Hello, all! First, I just want to say how much I love this thread, Sci-Fi rocks! Ok, down to business. I have a theory as to why the pod squad emerged as 6-year olds as opposed to younger(pardon me if this is already on the board, I haven't read the whole thing yet). This stems from real life science and not sci-fi. When humans are born, they are unable to survive on thier own. However, if they were to develop much longer, a baby's head would be too big to get out of the mother. I think that on the pod squad's home planet, it was anticipated that something might happen to the guardians. Therefore, the pod squad was engineered to develop until they would be able to survive, in a human's case, six years old. The one question that arises in my mind is how did they know that something could happen to the guardians? Oh well, just another mystery to be solved! jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-24-2000 08:11 AM hi there, a quick ps. regarding TeddyBehr_y2k's comments. good point about human physiology and development. and given the way things had already gone on the 'home planet' perhaps they were expecting murphy's law to continue to come into play? or maybe they figured that the trickster archetype was running the show, so they might as well be prepared for anything? jenlev Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-24-2000 09:36 AM quote: Originally posted by Palomino Do you think the podsters will be able to teach each other so they can all do the same things? Yes, I believe that is an implication of the theory - with practice, they should be able to duplicate each others abilities, though perhaps without the same proficiency. One question, why do you think Nasedo did not teach Tess to do more, or even tell her that there WAS more? She seemed surprised about the dreamwalking, and I was surprised that she was surprised. As Lorrilei1960 notes because he (Nesedo) does not have all of their capabilities, he may not even know everything that it is possible for them to do. That would explain why Tess didn't know about Dreamwalking and perhaps other skills that the original three have. It might also explain why he acts a little strangely around them... he simply does not know all the possiblities. I would add that much of this depends on the circumstances under which the Podster program was launched. If the situation was really dire and they did this as a move of desperation, than perhaps it is very true that they don't really know what they have in the podsters. If, on the other hand, they had some time and resouces, they may have done some practice runs, creating prototype podsters to see what exactly would be the result of the project. (Though, I doubt if they would have accounted for the raised-as-human variable in any case.) Also, it may explain some of Nesedo's stinginess when it comes to information - he doesn't yet know just how trustworthy these podsters are - there are three potential sides here: good shapeshifter, bad shapeshifter and human - to whom will they owe their primary allegiance? The hardwiring idea is interesting. On the "Representations and Interpretations" thread, I just posted the idea that maybe they were in the pods so long for pre-programming of personality(since you don't want your great leader to be a cowardly, decietful, sissy or something). Perhaps that pre-programming stage had multiple uses? Yes, on a previous thread, I argued that part of the function of the incubation period must have been to build the temporarily unavailable memories that seem to be about to reveal themselves, and also to create facsimilies of the cognitive structures present in the past leaders. From a cognitive point of view, genetics alone are not sufficient to duplicate "essence", else you could claim that identical twins are essentially the same person - and that's clearly not true. From a constructionist's (school of cognitive psychology) point of view, any definition of essence must consist of three elements - the genetic, the memories, and the mental models created to make sense of the memories. Now ideally, you'd have a complete set of each element, but perhaps there is some critical subset of each that you could include and still claim to have recreated the essence. (The science of psychology is still comparatively primitive IMHO, so you don't have to go far before you find yourself in the realm of Sci-Fi.) So that may have been another reason for the long incubation. Another observation: there is research that shows that by age six, most pertinant aspects of personality are fixed. Finally, a speculation: I wonder if the shapeshifters will turn out to reproduce by means of laying eggs? [Edited by Rattlebox on 06-24-2000 at 09:43 AM] jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-24-2000 10:12 AM hi there, good points rattlebox: about how much time and planning went into creating the podsters. i am imagining an environment of chaos, secrets, and no resources. i'm also assuming that they had very little time to implement the plan. perhaps nasedo is now living the adage: "be careful what you ask for you may get it." jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 06-24-2000 at 10:14 AM] Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-24-2000 10:34 AM Here's a quick idea about the broken pendant: I wonder if maybe it might have been part of an identification system that Riverdog's Nesedo had divised. If the "They" that he felt were closing in on him were actually evil shapeshifters, perhaps the Nesedo broke the pendant in two, giving one piece to Atherton and the other to Riverdog, with instructions to always carry it with them so they could show it and so provide a means of positive ID. If Atherton didn't take him seriously, or simply forgot, perhaps Nesedo concluded he was a fake Atherton and so killed him. (I don't know why I thought of that - there is no evidence, but maybe it'll spark an idea in someone else. Or Not) Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-24-2000 11:13 AM I'm LMAO at the vision of Harding/Nasedo sitting on a nest full of eggs trying to hatch them. Sorry, I'll try to come up with something a little more constructive to add...later. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-24-2000 11:32 AM hi there, yeah, nasedo on a nest of eggs/podsters, aka: seusse's 'horton hatches an egg' jenlev Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-24-2000 01:38 PM Rattlebox : Good idea about the pendant. I had wondered why River Dog had a piece of a pendant when the rest of it was locked in a basement in Texas. It must have been important, if he thought he would need it again after 40 years. About the egglaying. Did you notice the orbs were egg-shaped? Whoever hatched the plan of "Save the Home Planet" really laid an egg. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-24-2000 01:58 PM OK, now I'm really going to show my age... I wonder, if you put the two parts of the pendant together will you conjure up someone or something ala Shazaam. (I know, Liz and Eddie did, sort of, but how do we know that something didn't materialize elsewhere...say the evil Nasedo...hmmmm???). Palomino: Good one...this was the mother of all eggs layed. Karst   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 110    -- 06-24-2000 08:02 PM It seems our podsters have several layers of knowledge/instinct: 1. their "essences," and whatever comes along with that; 2. their genetic material (instinct only here); 3. whatever may have been encoded into them while in the pods; 4. what they have learned since hatching (knowledge and not instinct here); 5. images they pick up associated with things (Michael and the key; Max seeing Kyle in Liz's room in Missing). It isn't always clear where an item of knowledge goes. For example, with the writing on the cave in Riverdog, that seems likely to go with what they would know from their "essences," their lives from before. But it may have been implanted while they were in the pods. Evidently, the podsters don't get equal doses of all knowledge, since Max doesn't get anything from the cave writing, and only Michael sees anything with the key. In contrast, regular humans get only 2 and 4 above (genetics and what they learn). If next season has the podsters remembering many more things (from any source), maybe the poor guys will all need therapy to sort through the mess. Now that Max has escaped from the white room, I hope he doesn't end up in the padded cell. [Edited by Karst on 06-24-2000 at 08:08 PM] Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-24-2000 09:27 PM Karst : Sounds pretty good. About Max being in a padded cell: you are right. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, or at the very least I would expect night-terrors. Maybe his father or the sheriff being of the Vietnam generation can be of some help. What if Nasedo or somebody has the memories of their past lives stored somewhere, and want the podsters to willingly have them implanted? I can't imagine that Max would ever say yes to that. If he "remembered" his past life, he would be afraid he might fall out of love with Liz and cease to be who he has been as Max. [The haunting words of the opening credits, "I am who I am"] Can you imagine gaining the lifetime memories of a dead alien leader and mixing them with your own? Who would you be once you sorted them out - IF you could sort them out and stay sane. It would be traumatic to leave your new home planet or to never go back to your old home planet. You're screwed either way. Like none of them have an identity crisis as it is. Padded cell? Definately! shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-24-2000 09:50 PM I get the impression that the engineering was of an experimental nature--done in a last ditch attempt to save the royal line. If so, it should not be surprising that the experiment is not going according to plan. Nasedo seems to realize this. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-24-2000 10:02 PM True. When Nasedo looks at Michael and says, "You're not what I expected either." it gives the impression that either something has gone awry with what was planned, or Nasedo was envisioning someone more alien, like himself. shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-24-2000 10:18 PM If the writers are allowed to do it, this theme of young adults choosing their own path (rather than the "Destiny" set forth by their elders/engineers) could become the major theme within the Sci-Fi construct. Author Topic: The Science Fiction of River Dog Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-24-2000 10:41 PM IMHO then it goes back to what I believe is a theme with all great literature, including Sci-fi... the exploration of the human condition and what it means to be human. When I started reading sci-fi/fantasy, I was drawn to the stories which dealt with humanity... which can come in all forms, not necessarily just people forms. I do love the cool stuff that people can dream up about the future of technology, but if you leave out man, (sorry, politically incorrect)HUmans, and how they deal with the different situations that they find themselves in, then what is the point of the story? Stories which celebrate what is best in us, and explore what is not so great about who we are, are stories which make you take a hard look at the world and make you think. The podsquads journey of self-discovery (and I don't mean the alien stuff), but rather who they REALLY are as people is what makes Roswell worth watching...IMHO. Thank-you...you may now resume your normal lives. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-25-2000 03:52 AM Lorrilei1960 : Ditto on your HO. "'Wagon Train' in space." - Gene Roddenberry. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-25-2000 05:21 AM quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter If the writers are allowed to do it, this theme of young adults choosing their own path (rather than the "Destiny" set forth by their elders/engineers) could become the major theme within the Sci-Fi construct. For what its worth, I think there are some signs that this might indeed come to pass. Throughout most of season one the differences between the good guys and the bad guys couldn't have been much clearer unless they wore white and black hats respectively. With the introduction of the Nesedo-Harding character, things have suddenly taken a turn for the gray - he turned out to be an ally in the end, but not neccesarily a good guy. The same could be said for Tess, though not everyone is convinced that she will indeed prove to be an ally. I can already see the seeds of discordance in the difference between Michael's and Max's reactions to the momogram. Michael seems to have bought it completely, while Max's reaction seemed to be to draw closer to the people he was sure he could trust. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-25-2000 05:48 AM hi there, i agree that the whole podster plan seems to have been a frantic effort to try and make the best out of the disaster on the alien's planet. about post traumatic stress disorder: some of the development of the related symptoms depend on how someone is supported after the trauma. (how the trauma is addressed) it will be interesting to see how the writers etc. acknowledge this; it would be bizarre if they just asked the charactors to igonore everything that had happened. so far in the episodes they have done an excellent job of connecting emotions with experience. perhaps it's an opportunity to develop the max/valenti relationship? or even tell the evans? the podsters different response to the mom-o-gram says so much about how they each understand their roles in the situation. i think the ability to identify ambivalence is a strength...the 'charge ahead' full blast syndrome is likely to cause major trouble later? perhaps the level of ambivalence each podster has about their situation influences the type of 'powers' they have---and their skills with them? jenlev LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 08:14 AM quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 IMHO then it goes back to what I believe is a theme with all great literature, including Sci-fi... the exploration of the human condition and what it means to be human. When I started reading sci-fi/fantasy, I was drawn to the stories which dealt with humanity...Stories which celebrate what is best in us, and explore what is not so great about who we are, are stories which make you take a hard look at the world and make you think. The podsquads journey of self-discovery (and I don't mean the alien stuff), but rather who they REALLY are as people is what makes Roswell worth watching...IMHO. I agree. I listened one evening to Ursula Le Guin reading some unpublished work of hers. After she finished, one of the listeners asked her if she though we'd set up a colony on the moon by the year 2000 (this was in the early 80s). I will never forget her response. She said she didn't know and she didn't care. SF, for her, was about about creating psychological distance so the reader could examine some very here and now issues within themselves and their own societies. Really good SF (in my estimation) functions as really good literature--and challenges us to examine, reflect, and grow. The conflict in Roswell this fall will involve more than simply bad aliens. It will involve a clash of cultures, of obligations, and of loyalities. And, if our writers can pull it off with class, you and I will be invited to reflect on our own conflicted feelings of ourselves, our society, and our relationships. That is the draw of good literature combined with the allure of legend and myth. And Roswell has all of this. Damn--no wonder why we like this show...! LSS Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-25-2000 08:31 AM quote: Originally posted by jenlev the whole podster plan seems to have been a frantic effort to try and make the best out of the disaster The enormous improbability of the thing does seem to give that ring of desperation, doesn't it? * * * it would be bizarre if they just asked the charactors to igonore everything that had happened. And yet, that's exactly what happens on Television shows so often, Picard's difficulty in dealing with his post-borg experiences being a propitious exception. * * * perhaps it's an opportunity to develop the max/valenti relationship? or even tell the evans? The introduction of Evil Aliens as foes ups the ante so much that I believe they will feel morally compelled to tell the Evans, as well as the parents of any of their human friends who choose to stay aligned with them. (It also complicates the decisions facing Maria, Alex and Liz.) Pierce's group, ruthless as they were, could be expected to respect the lives of those who were only marginally involved. I think Evil Aliens would likely have no such inhibitions - "replacing" loved ones of people they expect might be involved in order to gain information, for instance. Since this new development puts everyone's life at risk, I think Max will feel like they deserve to be aware of the peril. * * * ...the 'charge ahead' full blast syndrome is likely to cause major trouble later? I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see Michael blunder into some dangerous situation early next season... * * * perhaps the level of ambivalence each podster has about their situation influences the type of 'powers' they have---and their skills with them? It sure seems like Michael's unhappiness and, if you forgive the term, alienation is intimately connected with his relative lack of control with respect to his powers. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 08:33 AM quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter If the writers are allowed to do it, this theme of young adults choosing their own path (rather than the "Destiny" set forth by their elders/engineers) could become the major theme within the Sci-Fi construct. For what its worth, I think there are some signs that this might indeed come to pass. Absolutely!!! I think it was in "Four Square" that we first hear what is going to be an idea that keeps resurfacing in the dialogue--you CAN choose your own destiny. I don't think that this is wishful thinking on Liz's part. Our writers even then were setting up the tension between choice vs. destiny that I think will be explored in the Fall season. Moreover this issue about human agency has embedded a number of other interesting polarities that can be explored: 1) youthful desires vs. parental orders 2) free will vs. mandated action 3) human vs. alien 4) adopted culture (nurture) vs. parent culture (nature)[NOTE: though it must be remembered that Max is not ALL alien] 5) original template vs. clone 6) past actions vs. future possibilities (to what degree does our past HAVE to dictate our future, etc.) Gosh--as much as I really despise "destiny" I have to admit that it has set up some interesting possibilities in terms of self-discovery. (And yeah--you do not know how much I hate to admit that--cause I really do not like the save-the-planet mandate). LSS GraceKel   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 784    -- 06-25-2000 08:37 AM Rattlebox have been reading many of your posts and I too have some similar ideas about them. I saw one of your posts raising the question about the message being for Michael that is why he understood it and I have been posting similar themes on another thread. Have you noticed when Max describes in the BALANCE episode about first seeing Michael, he said Isabel and I found each other first, we walked FOR AWHILE and we could feel someone else....there he was standing on this GREAT BIG ROCK as if to say HERE DEAL WITH ME. IT WAS THE HARDEST THING FOR HIM TO TRUST US. Has it crossed your mind that Michael and maybe Tess were brought at about the same time but by this other group---Ed Hardings group to insure that Max and Isabel hooked up with them instead of their intended HUMAN mates? Pushing their own agenda, making sure their species survives or something like that? But somehow something went wrong that night and ...... Has anyone entertained this idea? jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-25-2000 08:45 AM hi there, lss: yeah, ursula leguin! and well said about the role of sci-fi as a mirror held up to our civilization and humanity. rattlebox: yes! that was great how they addressed picard's response to the borg on star trek. cetainly with ron moore on board this bodes well for a realistic depiction of the consequenses of the situation with max (and the others who didn't get away scarless?) i think in addition to michael's difficulty accessing his abilites; it's also about the type of skills that occur for each of the podsters...apsects of personality reflected in types of powers developed? also---the various parents are going to have be told something about what caused everyone to 'go missing'. it's a toss up as to what would increase their safety though? maybe valenti can help them cook up a story? how would the parents all respond to finding out the truth? jenlev LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 08:45 AM quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox quote: Originally posted by jenlev * * * * * *...the 'charge ahead' full blast syndrome is likely to cause major trouble later? I wouldn't be one bit surprised to see Michael blunder into some dangerous situation early next season... You know--there was some interesting speculation earlier on one of the SF threads concerning Michael and Max's relationship and the tension seeminly inherent in it (though that tension seem to have abated a bit in the last three episodes--well, at least they are not swinging at each other). Earlier it was suggested that Michael might be tempted, because of his impetuous nature, into actions/alliances/secrecies that would be harmful. Those who were interested in Roswell's mythic structure spoke of this in terms of Michael temptation "from the dark side". If Max persists in following Liz--I could see Michael questioning Max's ability to lead (remember that Michael has already done this --sort of--in that apt. scene right before they discovered the camera). And history is rift with second in commands attempting to take power from leaders! So whether it is simply blundering into danger as mentioned above, or something more sinister...I think you are right in suggesting that Michael bears close watching. LSS shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-25-2000 08:51 AM LSS, now that I'm getting an "A" in this class (jk), I will risk getting an Unsatisfactory in Conduct by following your beautiful closing to this thread with another question: What is your opinion of RiverDog as a tic-tac eating, shapeshifting, human shaman, former apprentice to Nasedo, and how would this fit in with the over-arching premise of Choosing Destiny which you have just outlined so succintly? P.S. I am printing your reference to Ursula LeGuinn's remarks to use in a discussion that I am required to lead in August with 10 students on their alleged summer reading. Thank you, now I feel prepared [Edited by shapeshifter on 06-25-2000 at 09:27 AM] jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-25-2000 08:53 AM ps. lss: it's interesting that the max and michael charactors seem to balance each other out so well. one more focused on the process of how to reach a goal. the other focused on getting the the goal anyway/anyhow. each one needs the other to function well in, and to survive the situation. question is, how much are these charactors aware of this? jenlev LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 09:13 AM quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter LSS...What is your opinion of RiverDog as a tic-tac eating, shapeshifting, human shaman, former apprentice to Nasedo, and how would this fit in with the premise of choosing Destiny which you have just outlined so succintly? I have difficulty imaging River Dog as a tic tac eating shapeshifter. I have less problem--in theory--imaging him as a shapeshifter within native american mystical traditions aka shamanism. But I really haven't seen any narrative "hints" that persuasively identify him as such. As for his possible identity as Nesedo's apprentice...it is an intriguing line of speculation to follow. At one point in the world of the spoiled, we though River Dog might be killed (along with a number of other reported deaths on the reservation). That spoiler never materialized. But its implications were that River Dog somehow would become a spiritual guide/help to Liz & co. And if River Dog had studied with Nesedo--well, once again, there are a myriad of stores in which apprentices turn against their masters! Though I have to admit...if you thought you'd seen the mark of your former master (whom you had rebelled against) would you have gone into the woods in search for him? If River Dog WAS Nesedo's student--maybe he still is? As for how this all fits with destiny, it could go one of two ways: 1) River Dog could join with the human squad as a mentor like figure (he has already presented himself to Liz in this manner), or 2) River Dog could join with Michael as a mentor figure (he is far more father figure to Michael than Nesedo is...Michael even though he WAS his father). What I don't see him doing is aiding Max! LSS LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 09:22 AM quote: Originally posted by jenlev it's interesting that the max and michael charactors seem to balance each other out so well. one more focused on the process of how to reach a goal. the other focused on getting the the goal anyway/anyhow. each one needs the other to function well in, and to survive the situation. question is, how much are these charactors aware of this? jenlev You are right about the balance. While at times they presume this, at other times they are impatient with the flaws in the other's character. Either Max gets tired of picking up the pieces after Michael's mistakes or with Michael's insensitivity or else Michael gets annoyed with Max's lack of trust in him or with Max's lack of enthusiam in doing what Michael considers a Priority. Although each CAN balance the other...there are tension points in their relationship that could prove dangerous in the long run. It will be interesting to see in the fall what happens when they fully realize the implications invovled in being LEADER and SECOND IN COMMAND. LSS [Edited by LSS on 06-25-2000 at 02:52 PM] Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-25-2000 09:38 AM quote: Originally posted by GraceKel Has it crossed your mind that Michael and maybe Tess were brought at about the same time but by this other group---Ed Hardings group to insure that Max and Isabel hooked up with them instead of their intended HUMAN mates? Pushing their own agenda, making sure their species survives or something like that? GraceKel: A very interesting take on defusing the whole momogram business - and no, I hadn't thought of that. Unfortunately(?), at the end of Destiny we were treated to that spectacle of countless beepers going off all over the world in response to the Orb transmission. This lent creedence to Nesedo-Harding's warnings and, I believe, throws doubt on any theory that the whole save-the-world mandate was a hoax cooked up by Harding and/or Tess. Now, you might postulate that the beeper guys were part of Hardings "Group", but this would mean that the writers were pulling some sort of Off-season April fools joke on us. I think for the writer's to maintain a semblance of credibility, any attempt to discredit the momogram must plausibly account for all those beepers. huggybehr   --Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 95    -- 06-25-2000 09:49 AM LSS, I'm with you on the save the planet mandate. I was really concerned when the series ended with that premise, but if the writers can be as creative as some of you guys on this thread, the destiny angle could be used to explore some of these themes and make for great entertainment. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-25-2000 09:58 AM quote: Originally posted by jenlev i think in addition to michael's difficulty accessing his abilites; it's also about the type of skills that occur for each of the podsters...apsects of personality reflected in types of powers developed? This is a bit of a chicken/egg problem isn't it? Do the powers dictate personality, or the reverse? I think in humans, probably personality dictates skills-we choose what we will be good at by the amount of time we spend on it. But in aliens - who knows? * * * also---the various parents are going to have be told something about what caused everyone to 'go missing'. it's a toss up as to what would increase their safety though? maybe valenti can help them cook up a story? how would the parents all respond to finding out the truth? Well, as long as they all stay hidden, it's probably still best to follow a tell-no-one policy, but as soon as they expect someones fallen under suspicion - I think the parents have to know unless they can be surreptitiously guarded. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 09:59 AM quote: Originally posted by Palomino Karst :What if Nasedo or somebody has the memories of their past lives stored somewhere, and want the podsters to willingly have them implanted? I can't imagine that Max would ever say yes to that. If he "remembered" his past life, he would be afraid he might fall out of love with Liz and cease to be who he has been as Max. [The haunting words of the opening credits, "I am who I am"] Can you imagine gaining the lifetime memories of a dead alien leader and mixing them with your own? Who would you be once you sorted them out - IF you could sort them out and stay sane. It would be traumatic to leave your new home planet or to never go back to your old home planet. You're screwed either way. Interesting--You know Star Trek TNG deals with this in the instance of those who have an implanted symbiotic "partner". The host then gets the memories of the other personas--but it is clear that the host is NOT those others who have gone before. Max could get those memories if provision was made for some psychological buffer. LSS Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-25-2000 10:10 AM quote: Originally posted by LSS If Max persists in following Liz--I could see Michael questioning Max's ability to lead (remember that Michael has already done this --sort of--in that apt. scene right before they discovered the camera). And history is rift with second in commands attempting to take power from leaders! So whether it is simply blundering into danger as mentioned above, or something more sinister...I think you are right in suggesting that Michael bears close watching. LSS Another thing that I think will be interesting is where Is comes down on the whole destiny question. If a rift does develop between M&Mi over the meaning of the orbs message, who will she follow? In the past she has consistently sided with Max's cautious approach over Michael's more gung-ho attitude, but will her attraction to the romantic image projected overwhelm her previous judgement? Or maybe, finally, she will choose her own way? (Why is Is always portrayed as a follower?) jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-25-2000 10:37 AM hi there, i'm betting that the max and michael charactors turn that leader/second in command caste system on it's head and form more of a partnership that includes isabel---even though men and women are socialized differently on this planet; isabel has taken the lead, and been looked to for answers by the other two. as far as an explanation for the beepers? how about this: it was the sound of everyone's vcr's shutting down after taping the episode? sorry, couldn't resist... seriously, the beepers are difficult to 'explain away', any ideas anyone? about the podster's 'powers'. maybe it's about what abilities come more easily to each person---at least initially. maybe that acts as the psychological buffer or limitation (sort of like the one lss referred to?) by the way lss; the idea of a buffer for prior memories etc. is great. makes me wonder if the degree of buffers will be different for each of the podsters. and if so, why? and maybe nasedo can set up the fbi to keep an eye on the parents---they are sooo good at undercover work. heh heh heh jenlev GraceKel   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 784    -- 06-25-2000 11:29 AM Rattlebox I don't know if I should even get started on the last ten minutes of the Destiny episode but... Wouldn't you have a FEW MILLION questions for Mr Harding/Nasedo, for starters, what planet are we from? This really bothered me that he told them virtually nothing and is sent on this mission to impersonate Pierce of the FBI Unit. Nasedo saying "it is not my job to tell you" was pretty weak I thought and left so VAGUE ON PURPOSE so that they could take the story in any direction at all that they wanted. I think it is also interesting that each one of the podsters were drawn in to this destiny thing for different reasons. How convenient the message was being delivered by MOTHER, we all know how Isabel feels about the MOTHER/DAUGHTER connection, Michael of course has been looking for this SENSE OF PURPOSE for so long that he seems perfectly willing to embrace it, after all it is so important. And then we have Max who has always been the LEADER , always taking responsibility, making decisions so ofcourse he is not going to shirk off his duties and since he has always been somewhat of the leader it is fitting to his nature. Does this mean that it is fake--no not necessarily but if someone were trying to manipulate them, they have been studying them to know just how to manipulate things the way they want them. As for the SIGNAL going off---well even if you believe the mother hologram what do you think the signal going off means----I don't know myself but that could have gone off with the orbs with or without MOMMYGRAM so I do not think this proves its authenticity. Regardless of whether there is any truth to Max and Michael being from different groups ultimately or they are just 3 podsters together I do believe that Max and Michael have always CLASHED and I think this will continue into next season. One more thing---on the WB threads someone posted that a new character SEBASTIAN who has overwhelming powers will come to town but will not know how to use them. He will become close to Max, Isabel and Michael and but he will absolutely hate Tess which would provide clues....don't know how true this is just thought I would share what someone put on the WB threads. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-25-2000 11:56 AM As much as I hate to say it, I agree that there will be many more Michael/Max clashes in the future. When I think of a leader/second relationship I always want to look at Kirk/Spock as the template, and ohmygosh, Michael/Max don't really fit, do they? I would like to see them develop more into the "best friends" that we kind of assume their relationship should be, and isn't. I love Michael, but his attitude toward Max is very frustrating. He expects Max to be perfect, and castigates him when he is not. I don't think Michael really understands Max; his feelings, his motivations, what really makes him tick. I think Max has a far better understanding of Michael, but doesn't really know how to deal with him. I do think that they really care for one another, but they lack the trust factor which is vital in not only a leader/second relationship, but also a "best friends" type of relationship. Does anyone remember if Max or Michael ever referred to the other as "best friend"? I don't. This could be very telling at the direction they may carry this relationship and story. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-25-2000 12:14 PM hi there, how about captain picard and commander riker as a template. that relationship wasn't all peaches and cream, but developed steadily over a period of time to become rock solid. as a template it accomidates a world view where ambivalence is commonplace and doesn't preclude trust. jenlev LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 01:21 PM quote: Originally posted by GraceKel One more thing---on the WB threads someone posted that a new character SEBASTIAN who has overwhelming powers will come to town but will not know how to use them. He will become close to Max, Isabel and Michael and but he will absolutely hate Tess which would provide clues....don't know how true this is just thought I would share what someone put on the WB threads. Hmmm-- I hadn't heard that. Maybe "Sebastian" = Howie D.? Or maybe we have another alien guy in the wings? Maybe the "love triangle" that we all though was M/L/T might turn out to be M/L/S? Sigh...so many possibilities...so many weeks till October! LSS LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 01:28 PM quote: Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 Does anyone remember if Max or Michael ever referred to the other as "best friend"? I don't. This could be very telling at the direction they may carry this relationship and story. Well--I don't remember "best" friend--but Max jokes that "how can you call yourself my friend" (or something like that) when they have that "boy talk" in the hall during SH. Of course--the scene that bordered on erotic between M/Mi was in the trailer near the end of ID! Max almost looked androgynous and I could have sworn that potential "lover" rather than "best friend" was more appropriate! LSS GraceKel   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 784    -- 06-25-2000 01:31 PM LSS please don't go there, I am barely surviving M/L/T I really hope they can come up with something better than M/L/S nooooooooo! Maybe it will be someone for Isabel, sorry Alex but I am of a mind that they brought too many of the couplings together too soon and now it makes it harder to break them up and switch partners which we all hate. But IMHO they spent 22 eps building up ML relationship to a GREAT LOVE STORY, I do not want it tainted in the wrong way if you know what I mean. Also LSS will you read my post on the LIZ's IMPORTANCE to ALIEN MYTH thread it is on the second to last page. It is too long for me to post over here but I would like people to see it and see what they think, it is something I noticed just recently watching BLINDDATE again. Thanks. JanetMG   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 246    -- 06-25-2000 01:41 PM Interesting thoughts all! I just got caught up on this thread & have couple of questions. (its been a few days so they relate to some older posts) 1) Someone mentioned that HoloMom spoke English while making another point. Does that strike anybody else as a little odd? Maybe I'm thinking of the books, but I thought Max once said something about MM&I having to learn the language. I guess I had assumed (wrongly) that they were somehow interpreting whatever language she was speaking (interpretation by their essence, the collective unconscious or some kind of pod-based learning), but that can't be since Liz clearly understood. Did the hologram have a built-in interpreter? The earlier discussion about how this whole things seems like a last ditch effort made a lot of sense to me, but that seems a little inconsistent with her knowing not only what planet, but what country they'd end up in (and let's not even talk about the what haircut-book issue). How well does HoloMom know English? Are phrases like "young bride" and "betrothed" just the closest she could get? or are the home planet's social institutions that close to ours? This seems to tie in to the Tess-fabricated-the-message theory, but I don't remember it being discussed. 2)There's been a lot of discussion about Nacedo on this thread so I thought I'd toss out a question that's been bugging me. I have the feeling that I'm missing something obvious, but I still haven't figured out who the army guys were that Michael saw at the Hardings' house in its pre-furniture stage. I know Nacedo/Harding's cover was a civilian Army job (or consultant to the Army?), but the Army doesn't usually do home inspections and his job didn't sound like it involved top security matters. If it was Pierce's unit, why were they there, i.e., what did they do there and how did they know where to go? If the soldiers were with Nacedo/Harding and not part of his "cover," who were they & what is his relationship to them? I'd really appreciate any thoughts on this one (or links to other threads that have discussed it). LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-25-2000 02:35 PM quote: Originally posted by JanetMG 1) Someone mentioned that HoloMom spoke English while making another point. Does that strike anybody else as a little odd? Maybe I'm thinking of the books, but I thought Max once said something about MM&I having to learn the language. I guess I had assumed (wrongly) that they were somehow interpreting whatever language she was speaking (interpretation by their essence, the collective unconscious or some kind of pod-based learning), but that can't be since Liz clearly understood. Did the hologram have a built-in interpreter? .... 2).... I have the feeling that I'm missing something obvious, but I still haven't figured out who the army guys were that Michael saw at the Hardings' house in its pre-furniture stage. I know Nacedo/Harding's cover was a civilian Army job (or consultant to the Army?), but the Army doesn't usually do home inspections and his job didn't sound like it involved top security matters. If it was Pierce's unit, why were they there, i.e., what did they do there and how did they know where to go? If the soldiers were with Nacedo/Harding and not part of his "cover," who were they & what is his relationship to them? I'd really appreciate any thoughts on this one (or links to other threads that have discussed it). Hi JanetMG!!! Some thoughts on your questions: 1) LANGUAGE AND SF. On the one hand, your observation could be significant--it does seem suspicious that Mom spoke English. On the other hand, one of two "solutions" might be: a) it was not an accident that the craft "landed/crashed" where it did thus Mom spoke the language in which she knew the podsters would be raised, or 2) this is one of those frustrating (and glaring) plotholes of SF writ large. I cannot remember the name of the SF writer/linguist (Susan/Suzanne somebody...I'm at home away from my files) who has written on the issue of alien language and SF plots. She argues that "universal translators" or other such devices (as well as landing on planets where the inhabitants speak English) are frequently used in SF stories--and are totally implausible from a linguistic viewpoint. BUT, she notes, listeners/readers who will jump on inconsistencies in a story's science line will often ignore those dealing with language. And then she details the difficulty in bridging the gap between species/cultures when it comes to language. In other words, often aliens speak English regardless because the audience does...and SF writers simply say "damn" to plausibility! Of course it is also true that it could be a significant clue about whether the message is authentic or not! Pick your choice of the above! 2) NESEDO AND HIS JOB. You know--we never did see Harding at work! Either: a) He lied about his job as consultant. b) He was a consultant (who now apparently will be "missing". c) He now plans to do what other Americans do--work two jobs (consultant and Pierce). d) He works for the Army -- but the consultant job was a cover for his real job (this option is a bit sinister). Given the above options I can think of at least three reasons why those men might have been there: 1) Harding's job was more sensitive then he admitted (either as consultant or as spy), or 2) he was under suspicion and didn't know it, or 3) he was there (and Michael didn't know it) and was having a clandestine meeting). And of course two other elements of his existence have yet to be explained--those artifacts and his apparent wealth. LSS [Edited by LSS on 06-25-2000 at 02:41 PM] jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-25-2000 04:11 PM hi there, the language thing is confusing. but i figure that on a practical level, no one wants to be reading subtitles etc. for hours on end. also, perhaps they borrowed a universal tranlsator from star trek? seriously--- has anyone seen that star trek: the next generation episode with picard on the planet with the alien and unable to break the language code? i think it was called darmok? it turned out the alien language was made up of metaphors... as we don't know what the base root for this alien language is, it's hard to say how realistic it would be for the mom-o-gram to speak english. although i suppose if they can engeneer advanced humans with alien essense...what's a little translation machine going to cost them? oh, and even if they speak english and think they understand it; the subtleties and intricasies might just escape them. this could be a good way to 'explain away' some of the information in the mom-o-gram...as in: "oops, sorry, our universal translator was on the blink." jenlev Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-25-2000 05:10 PM Of course, we know that as plot devices go, having HoloMom speak English only makes sense...it would be too annoying to have all the subtitles (as someone pointed out), not to mention that Max/Michael/Isabel and Tess might not be able to understand the alien language themselves, not having heard it before, after all, they couldn't even read their own language. But aside from all that, doesn't it make sense that if these aliens had been visiting Earth long enough, or had enough knowledge of it to obtain DNA to mix with the alien goo, and they had the technology to do so, that they might also be able to figure out the language. Why leave a message for your kids if they can't understand it? Even without a common language base, surely with advanced technology they would be able to crack the mysterious code that is our language. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-25-2000 05:19 PM Howdy All. Just got back and thought I'd see what topic you were on now. WOW! WHERE TO START? JanetMG : Mommy Dearest sent her little seedlings to a planet she already had studied, since she knew they would be a mixture of them & us humans. I believe she also called our planet earth. As for the language being English, she probably picked out the U.S. because it was free and relatively safe. Also, climate might have been important. Maybe their planet is similar to our deserts. Speaking our language herself would be no problem. The aliens must be smart enough to figure out a language that had already been blaring out into space on radio for decades before the crash. As for the podsters not knowing English, Max told Liz that they didn't talk. They didn't know ANY language, because they had never been taught any before hatching. About ED Harding and his "wealth": Maybe there was a real Ed Harding, and Nasedo picked him to shift into. After killing the real one (and his daughter), he took over his life. Moving around, and not having a top clearance job, no one would check up on the daughter's looks. About the beepers and an alternative idea for what they mean : HERE IS AN IDEA THAT IS NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY: What if Nasedo really is a bad alien that is up to no good and he stole Mommy's seedlings away from their rightful defenders for his own purposes - like using them, ransoming them, getting them to fight on the bad guys' side for as long as possible till they figured it out, etc, etc. He tells them not to set off the orbs, but they do anyway, which he knows they would. The REAL good guys detect the signal and start hunting for the abducted alien kids, now that they have an idea what area they are in. Nasedo sits back and laughs while the podsters start killing every good guy that approaches them. About the parents : They had better tell The Evans right away. They are in danger as well as their children and all need to protect each other. For their adopted children to conceal the danger their parents are in is unconscionable and not in character. Also, if Max has problems after his: WR ordeal, dumping by Liz, and finding out he is the part clone of a dead alien leader who has to save two planets, maaaaaaaybe his parents should know what is bothering him. LET'S NOT FORGET POST-TRAUMATIC TESS SYNDROME If they had to tell any other adults, I would bet on Milton and Amy as being trustworthy. Milton, because he more than anyone would understand all the implications, and Amy because she would be into the whole "save-the-endangered-aliens" thing. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-25-2000 05:43 PM I think they should definitely tell Mr. Evans..as an attorney he should be able to think out ALL the angles (jk). I don't know... telling the parents might be even more dangerous. Not because they might turn on the podsquad, but because sometimes what you don't know can't kill you. That decision would have to be weighed. Knowledge is power and foresight, but also ignorance is bliss... my how cliche we are today. GraceKel   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 784    -- 06-25-2000 05:45 PM Palomino I love the way your mind works you can come up with answers for everything, all I can come up with are pcs, pcs, pcs....but not a solid theory. You said don't take your beeper explanation theory too seriously but I have to tell you I like this theory better than the alternative cuz I do not think Mr Harding is an especially loving character or Tess for that matter. Even if you believe the MOMOGRAM and it still could be true, I think that the mom saying Max being sent with his young bride, well she never said Tess the blonde it could have been Liz(who knows Liz's actual background). And she also said, "our enemies have come to the earth, you will know them only by the evil within" which brings me back to that bleak pic that Liz saw in Mr Hardings head. OT has anyone else noticed(probably) that the two signs on the CRASHDOWN DOORS look just like the ORB SHAPE? If they wanted to throw out the MOMOGRAM which is also okay with me then I think they have left room for that with all the cues of mind manipulation going on in the past several episodes. I also had another thought about MR HARDING NASEDO and TIC TAC NASEDO. In ep of SH when they first show Liz and Max sleeping in the desert they show a shadow stand right over them------this could have been one Nasedo(who may have even taken the REAL ORB and replaced it with a fake) because they would of had access and then later it comes back to Liz and Max waking up and this could be the other Nasedo, has anyone considered that? Who is viewing the tape of Isabel and Michael talking while they are clutching the orb in hand? It cannot be Pierce because he would know that Max doesn't even know who he is wouldn't he? So who is it? Tic Tac? or Tess without Mr Harding knowing? Questions, questions and more questions....anyone? jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-25-2000 05:49 PM hi there, palomino: i agree, absolutely the best reason to tell the evans is to allow them to protect themselves AND so they can address the fallout that occurs as max (and the others) deal with the trauma of the situation. in fact it would be a good way to integrate both plotlines in a feasable timely manner. and, aren't they lawyers or something? this could be a good avenue for reminding the fbi about good old 'habius corpus' (pardon my bad spelling). i agree about milton and amy being receptive folks to tell as well. that ought to be really fun...imagine the look on milton's face--- ack! post traumatic tess syndrome! heh heh heh! good one. something tells me that max won't be the only one suffering from that. jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 06-25-2000 at 06:03 PM] JanetMG   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 246    -- 06-26-2000 04:06 AM I just finished getting caught up on Karola's cut scene thread. She posted the following as part of a cut scene from White Room (it's on p.3 of her thread)that could affect the language issue (depending on why it was cut): INSIDE THE WHITE ROOM PIERCE: (cont'd): You know what I like about you? We can actually communicate. You see, the alien they studied back in the forties? No language skills. At least not ours. But it did make a lot of noise when certain techniques were applied. Specific techniques developed uniquely for the alien physiology. (looking at the transparencies) a physiology you partly share. (beat) Because, Max. no matter what you look like on the outside, I know what you really are on the inside. So, let's try again. This scene raises some interesting possibilities since the alien they studied didn't know English. Possibilities include: HoloMom being in a different group of aliens from those that crashed; HoloMom being part of the same group, but her message was recorded later (this would seem to limit how long they've been planning this, but seems inconsistent with the vision of the orb being buried?) or (my admittedly biased favorite) the message is fake. Of course we don't know why it was cut--maybe they realized it would be inconsistent with whatever storyline they're heading down. (What, if anything, did Pierce say they had learned from the alien they studied? Is there anything in WR itself that is inconsistent w/this scene?) [Edited by JanetMG on 06-26-2000 at 04:09 AM] Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-26-2000 04:18 AM Perhaps that particular alien did not know English yet, or was resisting better than they realized, or in their natural form can not speak(only make noises - like primates.) Maybe in fear and pain they lose their ability to concentrate and go into a type of shock. I have to run, but will be back about the WR again. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-26-2000 05:31 AM hi there, i agree; it makes sense that in fear/pain concentration about language translation would break down. also, if the translation is aided by mechanical means...and the machine is unavailable or broken...then ability to articulate in english would be lost? i have a sense that the aliens may have been a tad over-dependent on machinery/technology to begin with. this would contribute to the total breakdown of their plan subsequent to the crash? jenlev ps. just because they couldn't understand what the alien was saying doesn't mean they weren't making sense. the 'sounds' described in the cut scene from white room could have been very clear to anyone who knew the language and the culture of the aliens? also, if the alien had suffered physical damage, that might have impacted their ability to express and therefor be understood by the humans. and perhaps another species would hear and express beyond the auditory range that humans use? Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-26-2000 04:41 PM Jenlev : Good theory/idea on language. Since this thread has now been sent to the third page, I thought I'd better post SOMETHING. A QUESTION : In WR Nasedo says that the podsters' powers are human. Max leaves a silver handprint on people he seriously heals; shapeshifters leave a silver handprint on people they seriously kill. What does that mean? Mommy Dearest said they could only tell the enemy by the evil within. She probably assumed that they would have had constant contact with the shapeshifters that had brought them here and they would not need to be suspected. Who else is around to be suspected? Humans. Does that mean the bad aliens are indistinguishable from humans? She also said they should learn as much as they could about the enemy. Some people on the sci-fi threads have suggested the shapeshifters do not fully comprehend humans. Would you understand them better if you were part one and raised as one, on a planet full of them? Wouldn't that be the best way to learn about them, their weaknesses, and how to defeat them? If they were not to start studying them till after they grew up and got the orb message, why not raise them somewhere else more isolated without hostile natives? Maybe they have been learning about the enemy for the past eleven years. THOUGHTS? jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-26-2000 05:44 PM hi there, ok, this is pure conjecture of course, but if serious healing or killing involves the manipulation of molecules, then temperature change, dermatitis, and cellular changes might occur? this might account for the silver handprint? (in sci-fi-plot-land of course) also, the podsters have been learning about humankind's potential for evil and good since the beginning. and their own as well---this being part of the developmental process for humans. i'm still mulling over the "know them by the evil within" statement though. i get the sense that there will be a way for the podsters to identify the alien-evil-within vs. the run-of-the-mill human-evil? perhaps that might be a big portion of the plotline? learning to figure out the difference? a good reason for 22 episodes as this might take a while? also, what if they find out that some people they have known over the years turn out to be 'bad-aliens'? jenlev Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-26-2000 07:17 PM Jenlev : The point I wanted to make about the silver handprints is this: 1.An ALIEN shapeshifter makes silver handprints on bodies. 2.Max, with "HUMAN" powers, also makes a silver handprint. Is this contradicory or a clue? About the podsters being sent to a human planet, as part-humans, to be raised as humans, what if this was to help them learn about the ENEMY? "We have met the enemy, and they are us?" I have two theories on that if anyone is interested...If not, I'd be glad to go on to another topic. Yellow Horse Author Topic: The Science Fiction of River Dog GraceKel   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 784    -- 06-26-2000 07:34 PM Palomino by all means do share I am fascinated! Another topic? Who is TIC TAC-well someone brought up I think it was Zero and I suspected myself could it be maybe DEPUTY OWEN the NATIVE AMERICAN DEPUTY in the Pilot last seen in Riverdog ep and where did he go? Leave town? Or shapeshift into somebody else? If it was him, he could have shapeshifted into many people since! Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-26-2000 08:32 PM Thank you GraceKel. Please keep in mind that this is not flawless. Here goes. 1. Altruistic and naive aliens visited us in ancient times. Finding us "worthy" of preserving, they take some of us to another planet to ensure survival of our species, and optomistically hope that those transplanted people will develop into a highly civilized, friendly "neighbor". Unfortunately, due to human nature that they can't fathom, because their nature is so different, their little experiment goes haywire, and the humans develop a ruthless, greedy, mercenary society which turns on them by assasinating their leader, and taking over in a surprise attack. Dispare and enslavement follows. 2. Nasty humans from our future earth find Max's friendly little planet and basically do the same take-over thing. (This requires time travel on the part of both sides to get to 1947 and present earth. Also to get back "home" again.) In either scenario, the aliens deside they need someone to save them that understands the humans, but their brain can't work like ours, so they deside to "engineer" a cross that can think like humans, but will retain enough of "them" to side with the shape shifters' planet and have some advantages from their species. Who better or more trustworthy than beloved dead Max & co.? A. Shapeshifters crash or are shot down in 1947, and must get away/repare pods before starting their task. B. "Communicaters" sent along to briefly explain and send signal to good guys for passage back. (did not know at the time they would be followed?) C. Bad humans find out destination one way or another and follow.(not sure when they showed up, but they know the signature that alien messages would give off and have been waiting for it.) D. Max & all HAVE been learning about the enemy all their "lives", but just don't know it yet. They have dimentions to their brains and minds that let them understand humans with their strengths, weaknesses, and "evil within". Just a bored mind that is waiting for October. shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-26-2000 08:49 PM This has nothing to do w/ above post, but I was almost time traveling backward (going home at 85 for 2 hours) and maybe met some of my thoughts from the previous 24 hours that were lingering on the road, and thought: What is the significance of the blue-eyed River Dog's name? Well, off to watch Roswell Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-26-2000 08:50 PM GraceKel, sorry, I almost forgot: Tictac's ID. I really like Owen and hope he stays a good guy - maybe even a future recruit since Valenti probably is friends with him, and the Native Americans are so far good guys also. They really haven't let us meet too many of the residents of Roswell(WB budget), so I guess Tictac is a nonregular. What if at some point, a real resident died and Tictac took advantage of it by hiding the body and taking over the person's life - only we don't know it yet? Milton? Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-26-2000 09:43 PM Hi all... once again some thought provoking theories and questions. How to identify the evil within? Well, we know that when Liz kissed Max/Nasedo, she saw lot of really icky stuff. Hopefully our aliens won't have to go around kissing everyone to figure out if they are evil aliens or not. But I do notice that one of the powers is the ability to get into someone's head...without kissing. Currently this only belongs to Isabel. Without going back to the gender/class based power structure (tee hee), perhaps that IS a power they are all supposed to have, but for some reason have not yet developed, or can't because of incomplete incubation. If they all could do it, then they all would be able to identify their enemy by reading their minds. pixiedude   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 67    -- 06-26-2000 10:29 PM quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox quote: Originally posted by LSS LSS Another thing that I think will be interesting is where Is comes down on the whole destiny question. If a rift does develop between M&Mi over the meaning of the orbs message, who will she follow? In the past she has consistently sided with Max's cautious approach over Michael's more gung-ho attitude, but will her attraction to the romantic image projected overwhelm her previous judgement? Or maybe, finally, she will choose her own way? (Why is Is always portrayed as a follower?) (pixiedude replies) maybe this has been discussed somewhere else, but I haven't seen it; while Micheal may want to get busy with Izzy, she doesn't seem to share this romantic interest. I remember when she told him about the dream where they had a child, and how she'd never seen him so happy. She did NOT say anything like, "I've never been so happy." Later on, she says something like, "Now I don't know if I'm supposed to be your sister or your *mate*," and she says mate as if she's picturing a scene from an animal husbandry text. In general, the writers have not done a good job of making Isabel make sense. I hope they resolve some of the disparate personality traits they've assigned her with the extra screen time WB wants them to give her next year. --Doug Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-26-2000 11:05 PM Pixiedude; I think that the problem with Isabel's character is the same with the whole end of the season...too much too soon. At the beginning of the show she seemed to be the original "Ice Princess", but slowly we were allowed to see why she kept up this facade; she was afraid of letting anyone get too close. We also saw how loyal and loving she can be to her family and to the few friends that have been allowed in. I think the major conflict within her will be her heart (Alex) vs. her (gag-me)destiny (Michael). And if we will recollect, Alex and Isabel did not break up. She did make a committment to Alex, and I think her sense of loyalty to him will keep her from throwing herself into her (gag me, again) destined relationship. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-27-2000 03:16 AM hi there, hey palomino: i was in such a hurry to tape blood brothers last night that i forgot to thank you. so... thank you! as far as the handprint: perhaps it says more about how human physiology responds to molecule manipulation? maybe it's a clue about the 'famous-alien-essense'? anyone? anyone? regarding seeing the 'evil-within': as charactors the podsters seem to have different ways/levels of being invisible. isabel seems less invisible (at least on the surface), so perhaps dream-walking, which suggests a degree of intimacy with another person (so to speak), comes more easily to her? jenlev JanetMG   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 246    -- 06-27-2000 04:21 AM Hi folks. Just want to toss out another very speculative line of thought sparked by another cut line. The line is from Max to the Max, I think it came right after Liz said something to Nacedo about her & Max seeing into each other's souls: LIZ: (cont'd) You have no idea what that means, do you? Because when I kissed you, you had no soul for me to see. Could Nacedo's lack of a soul be because he used to have one of their "essences" in him? Maybe the original plan didn't include human hybrids on earth. Perhaps the four aliens in the crash each had an essence in them (or maybe the above line & the shooting script's instruction that Liz sees essentially a void are meaningless in this context and they just had the essences with them). I don't know what alien essence is, but if it has a shelf life of any kind (like organs for transplant) something would have had to been done. Even if there wasn't a shelf life, two of them were now dead. Maybe one or both of the crash survivors had to improvise initially, and then discovered that the evil aliens were here or if they knew that (and thus were in the neighborhood), the importance of stopping the evil aliens here). It may have been decided at that point to do the hybrid thing.--for all the reasons others have discussed and b/c the other 2 aliens were dead (& perhaps Atherton was right about some things. Nacedo's experience w/the sweat lodge may have made him think it wiser for them to have a human physiology for survival purposes). The difficult part is the book and the hologram--if they're real, then there must have been some renewed contact w/the home planet after the crash. The time delay between 1947 & 1989 could be due to a combination of figuring out how to combine the essence w/DNA & reestablishing some kind of contact w/the home planet. (Alternatively, maybe they haven't actually reestablished contact w/the home planet yet, but Nacedo made the book & HoloMom message as motivators or teaching aids.) Maybe the pod training wasn't better because it wasn't part of the original plan. I could keep going, but I think its all too speculative at this point. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-27-2000 05:48 AM Oops, I wrote this response near the end of page 4, but when I posted it, a whole new page appeared...and Palomino had already continued his tale, so its a bit dated. Palomino: I'll try to comment on your continuation presently. quote: Originally posted by Palomino A QUESTION : In WR Nasedo says that the podsters' powers are human. Max leaves a silver handprint on people he seriously heals; shapeshifters leave a silver handprint on people they seriously kill. What does that mean? Makes me wonder what accounts for the silver color? Anyway, I have always assumed the handprint resulted from a massive transmission of energy - whether destructive of constructive. Presumably the Podsters are quite similar to the shapeshifters on a celluar level (if not identical), and very nearly identical to humans on the organic level (size-shape-position-function of organs and skeletal form). I'm not a biologist, so I have no idea if this is really plausible, so I'll leave that to someone else. Mommy Dearest said they could only tell the enemy by the evil within. She probably assumed that they would have had constant contact with the shapeshifters that had brought them here and they would not need to be suspected. Who else is around to be suspected? Humans. Does that mean the bad aliens are indistinguishable from humans? Actually, since we are talking about shapeshifters, it may be that you couldn't automatically trust someone even if they appeared to be someone you knew quite well-an evil shapeshifter could assume one of the customary forms of a friendly shapeshifters. But you are right - the statement implies that the evil ones are physiologically identical to one of the known groups on the planet. You did however leave out one group - podsters! She also said they should learn as much as they could about the enemy. Some people on the sci-fi threads have suggested the shapeshifters do not fully comprehend humans. Would you understand them better if you were part one and raised as one, on a planet full of them? Wouldn't that be the best way to learn about them, their weaknesses, and how to defeat them? If they were not to start studying them till after they grew up and got the orb message, why not raise them somewhere else more isolated without hostile natives? Maybe they have been learning about the enemy for the past eleven years. THOUGHTS? My only real problem is that it, if you are thinking the enemy is literally us, it seems so unnecessary - their technology lead over us appears overwhelming. If you are thinking the menace might be human, but from a different planet, just how similar are the two subspecies? Wouldn't it be better to secretly plant the spys within the actual threatening culture? But, still, go on with your tale ... [Edited by Rattlebox on 06-27-2000 at 05:59 AM] Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-27-2000 06:22 AM quote: Originally posted by Palomino Please keep in mind that this is not flawless. Here goes. 1. Altruistic and naive aliens visited us in ancient times. ... and the humans develop a ruthless, greedy, mercenary society which turns on them by assasinating their leader, and taking over in a surprise attack. Dispare and enslavement follows. 2. Nasty humans from our future earth find Max's friendly little planet and basically do the same take-over thing... I do like some of this, especially scenario one. (Time travel always seems to get into so many paradoxes that I prefer to just not go there.) But, it still hinges somewhat on whether you can believe that it's easier to carry out this plan in a far-off galaxy than it is to just plant the podsters in the renegade society. I played around with this sort of thing myself ... in my scenario the plan was to bring the podsters back and plant them as leaders of the alien-human culture, and so control the rebellion. I think a lever you could use is the different definition of "evil" that might exist for different species. Going back to my favorite ants, a renegade, non-conformist ant might well be considered evil by her cohorts, if they could think in those terms, while we often see such qualities as admirable. shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-27-2000 10:18 AM Ooo! Idea coming in! First: quote: Originally posted by JanetMG ...speculative line of thought sparked by another cut line. The line is from Max to the Max, I think it came right after Liz said something to Nacedo about her & Max seeing into each other's souls: LIZ: (cont'd) You have no idea what that means, do you? Because when I kissed you, you had no soul for me to see. Could Nacedo's lack of a soul be because he used to have one of their "essences" in him? Maybe the original plan didn't include human hybrids on earth. Perhaps the four aliens in the crash each had an essence in them ....I don't know what alien essence is, but if it has a shelf life of any kind ...[or, since] two of them were now dead. Maybe one or both of the crash survivors had to improvise initially...It may have been decided at that point to do the hybrid thing...[and] Nacedo's experience w/the sweat lodge may have made him think it wiser for them to have a human physiology for survival purposes Okay, now, how about: MM&I are NOT clones! They are a different species from the shapeshifters. AND, if the hologram was real, the young bride did die in her pod, but even if it was fake: Tess was genetically engineered by Nacedo for intergalactic politcal purposes. So if Max ever really kisses Tess (we've debated this elsewhere), he would see the evil within...unless she throws an illusion over her essence. Probably I'm way off, but I REALLY like JanetMG's idea of the shapeshifters giving up their souls to make clones. Also:Jenlev quote: ...as far as the handprint: ...maybe it's a clue about the 'famous-alien-essense'? anyone? anyone? The handprint is common to both shapeshifters and podsters...hmmmm...yes..."the essence!" *HELP* Somebody reign in these thoughts! Woops! That's my job Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-27-2000 10:20 AM BACKTRACKING TO MY ORIGINAL OBSERVATION ABOUT THE SILVER HANDPRINTS : I thought there was a major inconsistancy here, but apparently my hint at it was poorly written. What I meant was this: 1. In White Room, Nasedo tells Michael that his powers are HUMAN rather than ALIEN, and the podsters have been "programmed with powers that HUMANS will have in several thousand years. MAX LEAVES SILVER HANDPRINTS. OK - fine. 2. Nasedo/shapeshifters have also been leaving SILVER HANDPRINTS, and they are ALIENS - not HUMANS. SO : If Max has HUMAN powers, and the shapeshifters have ALIEN powers, WHY DO THEY BOTH LEAVE SILVER HANDPRINTS? INCONSISTANCY? OR A CLUE? jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-27-2000 01:51 PM hi there, maybe the silver handprint is an 'echo' of what happens when molecules are manipulated in a range of ways...something both the podsters and nasedo can do. sort of like how human's can bruise in response to a range of stimulus? also, given the forces at work with molecular manipulation (in sci-fi-plot-land that is) perhaps both the podsters and the shapeshifter(s) have to access some sort of 'field' or essense that they do have in common? maybe as the podsters get better at using their skills they could arrange to control the color and shape of the mark they leave? kind of like tie-die for the body? heh heh heh really i am just kidding! but...it could be inconistancy and a clue at the same time...maybe even a clue to the fact that nasedo isn't telling the podsters the whole truth about their physical nature? not sure where i'm going with this, sorry. jenlev Karst   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 110    -- 06-27-2000 03:08 PM When Nasedo (disguised as an FBI agent) meets the 3 podsters on the base, Michael first tries to use his telekinetic power to knock Nasedo down, and Nasedo responds, but more strongly. So Michael and Nasedo have the same telekinetic power. Also, the gate of depleted uranium was originally installed because the FBI had found out that its atoms were too heavy for the alien in captivity (Nasedo, Tic-Tac, whoever) to manipulate. But Nasedo says that the podsters' powers wouldn't work on it, so their telekinetic powers seem very similar. Maybe their powers of molecular manipulation as well. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-27-2000 03:18 PM Karst : Yes, this is what I was talking about. Nasedo told Michael his(and other podsters') powers are HUMAN. He also says, "They know more about you than you do". Presumably from studying "ALIENS". These statements are contradictory. If their powers are really human, then why do the shapeshifters have HUMAN powers? I hate the thought of where this can go plotwise. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-27-2000 03:36 PM So the question seems to be whether or not the "aliens" are really aliens or just an advanced species of humans... is that what we're trying to figure out? If all of them can rearrange molecules, why can't they all shapeshift. Isn't shapeshifting just rearranging the bodies molecules into another form or appearance? It would seem so on a very basic level. (jeez, now I'm answering my own questions...shades of insanity) Nasedo makes a big deal about pointing out that he can change his outer appearance, but not his inner structure... however, Michael rearranges the molecules in his finger to match the fingerprint of the dead agent. Why couldn't they do that on a grander scale and rearrange their whole body? We know that the podlings don't know about all their powers, everything they can do, perhaps Nasedo doesn't want them to know. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-27-2000 07:23 PM hi there, i imagine that nasedo is very invested in staying in control over the podsters...they are a relatively unknown quality, which given his experiences on the alien planet and earth must make his crazy? so he would really want to keep the lid on the 'situation'? perhaps the range of the podsters and shapeshifters skills/abilities are on a similar continuim despite the different species? maybe there are some examples of this in earth biology amongst different species? also, if nasedo can change muscle mass but not bone structure that may refelct the nature of his physiology...or perhaps he loses his 'nature of himself' if he changes that part of his body? there are myths/stories about shapechangers who lose the ability to change back in some circumstances... ok, it's late and i'm fried so this isn't making sense even to me. jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 06-27-2000 at 07:26 PM] GraceKel   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 784    -- 06-27-2000 07:45 PM Palomino your suggestion that this person could be MILTON of course is a possibility, I only stayed away from it because I figured they would do something different than the books-because Milton is an alien called Ray in the books. As for your story about the humans being the enemy well I did not get that impression from the MOMOGRAM, I thought she said "our enemies have come to the EARTH, you will know them ONLY by the EVIL WITHIN" which I am assuming is because they look just like anyone else on the planet, humans or podsters! I think ET AMERICAN posted a theory quite awhile back about us finding out at a later time that the PODSTERS are from the FUTURE EARTH which was taken over at a certain point by EVILNESS and were sent back in time to gather info and stop this from happening in the future somehow. I thought this was interesting---sort of like TERMINATOR though. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-27-2000 08:39 PM Palmino: I hope you don't mind me playing devils advocate here, but I guess I'll go ahead and do it anyway. quote: Originally posted by Palomino 1. In White Room, Nasedo tells Michael that his powers are HUMAN rather than ALIEN, and the podsters have been "programmed with powers that HUMANS will have in several thousand years. According to the transcripts at Crashdown.com, his exact words were: "When you were engineered, you were given the capacity to do everything the human brain is capable of." This first statement, by virtue of being in the present tense, seems to suggest that the capacity to do all these wonderful/terrible things we've witnessed in the podsters is already present in the human brain. We can extrapolate that the reason we aren't all reheating our coffee mugs with mind-waves in lieu of microwave ovens is that somehow these abilities are not yet connected to conscious control. ... Next, he states: "Everything you can do is human. You were just programmed to be several thousand years ahead of mankind, that's all." Now...The way you interpret this depends on how literal you believe he was being. If you take it at face value, it does suggest that he somehow has already seen the future. I take it more as a prediction, based on their obviously advanced neuroscience, that it will only take that long for the missing circuitry to be complete. MAX LEAVES SILVER HANDPRINTS. OK - fine. 2. Nasedo/shapeshifters have also been leaving SILVER HANDPRINTS, and they are ALIENS - not HUMANS. SO : If Max has HUMAN powers, and the shapeshifters have ALIEN powers, WHY DO THEY BOTH LEAVE SILVER HANDPRINTS? INCONSISTANCY? OR A CLUE? I don't know if you can answer these questions unless and until you know why *either* leaves silver handprints. What you have is neural activity resulting in some sort of field of energy which can affect matter at or near it's most basic level. This obviously is beyond our science, but its worthwhile to ask how many different mechanisms can we reasonably expect to find? Is it really so surprising that two neural systems, very different in organization, but apparently similar in basic function (chemical based transmission of signals through a neural net) would demonstrate similar potentials and limitations? (Note the required assumption I just skimmed over there - that shapeshifter brains and human brains, though organized differently, function similarly. Without this - yes I too see a problem/clue.) Finally: here's a question I have, and would love to hear any ideas on. Based on what Nasedo said (above) why do the podsters have the tell-tale alien cell structure? It seems pretty clear that it's not really needed for the powers, why else is it there? jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-27-2000 09:37 PM hi there, perhaps the telltale alien cel structure is some sort of marker so the nasedo (etc.) can keep track of them? or perhaps the aliens were so rushed, and their resources so limited that this was another detail that they couldn't address in time? i get the sense that they had very little time to implement the plan from the home planet? rattlebox: about your comment regarding energy fields. there is a lot of research going on about field theory (and archetypes) which i still have trouble articulating--let alone understanding,so sorry to repeat myself, but here is a description a friend wrote that may ring some bells as far as the handprint issue is concerned... "If a field may be understood as a region or space where something happens, and if each archetype has as it's 'energetic component' a field that can store and shape information, matter, and behavior, then we can hypothesize that the archetypal field serves as the ground of being or the ground of creation from which form arises. while an electromagnetic or gravitational field is space and time dependent, think of a magnet directly underneath a piece of cardboard moving iron filings on top of it, an archetypal field appears to be 'non-local', that is, not limited to the mandates of space and time." i'm wondering if this can somehow be useful in speculating about the handprints, the 'essenses', and the podster's destiny quandry? also, the similarities and differences between the nasedo type and the podsters? in sci-fi-plot-land-lingo...are they all accessing the same kind of field (non-local informational field) regardless of their differences? jenlev Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-27-2000 09:55 PM GraceKel : A while back I also posted something on one of these threads about hoping they didn't pull the trick of making them from our future. I much prefer ALIENS, and the more they make them human the more disappointed I get. It is a cop-out plot I would be upset to see. Rattlebox : Devil's advocate is welcome. Thank you. That(above^) is why I was a tad too picky about the silver iron-ons, and the vague way Mommy Dearest put her message. They left the door open for future-gone-wrong. I usually am a very literal person. As to your ending question : take a look at the post I put on the "Rep. & Interp." thread earlier this evening. I don't know how to get it over here and I'm too tired to try(just finished making up a chem. test for tomorrow and I'm not caught up on sleep either). I hope it makes sense. Anyhow, see what you think. I won't answer the whole question, but might start some ideas? Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-27-2000 10:52 PM Sorry, I lost track of which one of you posted this... quote: According to the transcripts at Crashdown.com, his exact words were: "When you were engineered, you were given the capacity to do everything the human brain is capable of." This first statement, by virtue of being in the present tense, seems to suggest that the capacity to do all these wonderful/terrible things we've witnessed in the podsters is already present in the human brain. We can extrapolate that the reason we aren't all reheating our coffee mugs with mind-waves in lieu of microwave ovens is that somehow these abilities are not yet connected to conscious control. ... Next, he states: "Everything you can do is human. You were just programmed to be several thousand years ahead of mankind, that's all." Now...The way you interpret this depends on how literal you believe he was being. If you take it at face value, it does suggest that he somehow has already seen the future. I take it more as a prediction, based on their obviously advanced neuroscience, that it will only take that long for the missing circuitry to be complete. We all know that we use some miniscule percentage of what our brains are capable of...some of us more miniscule than others. We also know that even in our reality there are things that we cannot explain... people who seem to be able to bend spoons with their minds, people who seem to be able to pick up images from inanimate objects, people who seem to be able to read other people's thoughts...all connected with what we call "psychic ability". I am not an expert on the paranormal, but I've watched the X-Files enough to know that those who study such phenomena believe that these people have the ability to tap into parts of the brain that most people cannot. Perhaps, as you say, Nasedo (or the bioengineers of the podlings) WERE able to extrapolate what these parts of the brains might be capable of 1000 years in the future, and "program" their development toward that end. Even Nasedo (who doesn't seem to think to much of humans) said that our brains are marvelous machines... I wish I could learn to use mine to full capacity; life would be soooo much easier. A thought about the silver iron-on (that still cracks me up)... didn't Nasedo/Max leave a silver handprint on the gas tank he blew up? I'm almost sure he did. If so, then it's not just skin that gets the iron-on. Which makes me kind of think that it does have something to do with the energy transference, and as the energy dissipates, the handprint fades. [Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 06-27-2000 at 10:55 PM] JanetMG   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 246    -- 06-28-2000 04:32 AM Palomino, Rattlebox, & Lorrilei--Re the silver handprints--I know this is actually kind of a human trait, but it makes sense to me that the aliens would "enhance" or program the human brain in ways that mirror or emulate their own powers. We tend to teach (and value) what we know. The interesting question (to me & with my luck, not the writers) will be whether the Podsters are able to learn/program different powers, because they were raised human rather than alien. For example, could Tess & Isabel have the same underlying brain enhancement, but it developed differently because of differences in the way they were raised and/or different values? Karst   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 110    -- 06-28-2000 07:13 AM quote: Originally posted by Rattlebox in response to Palomino 1. In White Room, Nasedo tells Michael that his powers are HUMAN rather than ALIEN, and the podsters have been "programmed with powers that HUMANS will have in several thousand years. According to the transcripts at Crashdown.com, his exact words were: "When you were engineered, you were given the capacity to do everything the human brain is capable of." Next, he states: "Everything you can do is human. You were just programmed to be several thousand years ahead of mankind, that's all." MAX LEAVES SILVER HANDPRINTS. OK - fine. 2. Nasedo/shapeshifters have also been leaving SILVER HANDPRINTS, and they are ALIENS - not HUMANS. SO : If Max has HUMAN powers, and the shapeshifters have ALIEN powers, WHY DO THEY BOTH LEAVE SILVER HANDPRINTS? INCONSISTANCY? OR A CLUE? Finally: here's a question I have, and would love to hear any ideas on. Based on what Nasedo said (above) why do the podsters have the tell-tale alien cell structure? It seems pretty clear that it's not really needed for the powers, why else is it there? I hope I edited this quote right, and didn't ascribe Palomino's thoughts to Rattlebox (or vice-versa). Apologies if I did. Anyway, hi Rattlebox and everyone! 1. You note the present tense in "is capable of," but not the verb chosen in "were engineered." The fact that they were engineered to have human capabilities does not automatically mean they accomplish these capabilities the human way, entirely or partially. Life on earth all evolved from common ancestors, with the result that all known forms of life have a lot of fundamental qualities in common. A truly alien organism would not be limited by earth solutions to a problem. The aliens may have used insights from any number of alien life-systems to engineer the podsters. I suppose an anology would be all the different ways earth organisms have evolved to make sounds, and the fact that humans can often imitate them with very different vocal equipment. 2. BTW, the silver handprints also show up on walls, either as locks or signs. There is one on the outside of the pod chamber, the inside, and the hand sign we saw when Tess retrieved the book. The podsters pass a hand over the right spot, and the handprint appears. Then they touch it to unlock, or just reach in and grab (in the case of the book). If the same fundamental energy is being manipulated, it seems natural for it to leave the same trace. (Or did you say that in the part I edited out?) 3. The different cell structure may not be necessary for the human brain to reach its full potential, but it may help out somehow. It may, for example, help the powers be controlled and expressed. Max has to touch to heal, and Michael has to direct his telekinetic power with his hand. The alien cell structure may facilitate the human powers that arise in the brain along their path out to their targets. It seems possible, given what Nasedo says, that the podsters were engineered to do all the various things that humans could potentially do, but even more powerfully. Strictly speaking, the podsters' cell structure may not be Nasedo's. The podsters' engineering may have been very specifically to get the most out of the human brain. (And incidentally, to heal very quickly, and maybe other things.) Have a nice day everyone. Got to go. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-28-2000 08:31 AM quote: Originally posted by jenlev rattlebox: about your comment regarding energy fields. there is a lot of research going on about field theory (and archetypes) which i still have trouble articulating--let alone understanding,so sorry to repeat myself, but here is a description a friend wrote ... "If a field may be understood as a region or space where something happens, and if each archetype has as it's 'energetic component' a field that can store and shape information, matter, and behavior, then we can hypothesize that the archetypal field serves as the ground of being or the ground of creation from which form arises. while an electromagnetic or gravitational field is space and time dependent, think of a magnet directly underneath a piece of cardboard moving iron filings on top of it, an archetypal field appears to be 'non-local', that is, not limited to the mandates of space and time." Wow. Okay, let me make a crack at decoding this, but Jenlev, I'm counting on you to tell where I go wildly off-track - my knowledge here, as in most areas, is seriously depth-challenged. First - a definition of sorts. Archetype,as I understand it, is a psychological concept promoted by Jung who used it to refer to a sort of intellectual template - it's something like a prewired disposition to develop sort kinds of ideas, certain kinds of stories. He thought these templates were part of our unconscious minds, in fact, they were part of a specific region of our unconscious minds that was identical in all humans ... he called it the collective unconscious. Okay, then, what is the 'energetic component' of an Archetype? Now, I'm assuming that this is the part of the Archetype that actively shapes the conscious analogues of the unconscious templates. Thus energetic component of the mother archetype guides the shaping of the collection of sights, smells and tactile sensations (and later, traits) associated with an infants mother into a single shorthand idea in her mind - Mom. The energetic component, then, would refer to the mechanism by which the unconscious archetypes guide this process. Combining this process with the space in which it occurs, you get an archetypal field. Now, the last part of it - "... an archetypal field appears to be 'non-local', that is, not limited to the mandates of space and time." Now, is she/he talking about a specific archetypal field (the one in my head, for instance?) or is she/he simply making the argument that more than being essential to the concept of human mind, archetypes are an intrinsic part of any neurally structured mind? I can't imagine how you would defend/prove the first position, while the second position, within limits, seems more plausible. (Of course, I'm working with the unstated assumption that "mind" is a phenomenon which arises purely out of brain function, while Jung may have thought that the mind incorporated non-physical components. I don't know ... ) [Edited by Rattlebox on 06-28-2000 at 08:44 AM] Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-28-2000 08:51 AM quote: Originally posted by JanetMG ...it makes sense to me that the aliens would "enhance" or program the human brain in ways that mirror or emulate their own powers. ... The interesting question (to me & with my luck, not the writers) will be whether the Podsters are able to learn/program different powers, because they were raised human rather than alien. I think this is a good point - remember they were engineered to capture the essence of specific aliens in human form, so it does make sense that their abilities would reflect the abilities of the dearly departed leaders. It should be interesting to see if the writers find time to deal with these issues. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-28-2000 09:04 AM Hi Karst! quote: Originally posted by Karst 1. ... The fact that they were engineered to have human capabilities does not automatically mean they accomplish these capabilities the human way, entirely or partially. ... A truly alien organism would not be limited by earth solutions to a problem. ... 3. The different cell structure may not be necessary for the human brain to reach its full potential, but it may help out somehow. It may, for example, help the powers be controlled and expressed. The alien cell structure may facilitate the human powers that arise in the brain along their path out to their targets. ... Strictly speaking, the podsters' cell structure may not be Nasedo's. These are really good points. Perhaps the "alien" cell structure is required to "stand up" to the amount of energy the bodies would need to transmit all that power. Perhaps the brain is able, but the body weak. ... Another point, some argue that we are on the brink of a new era of evolution, one hugely accelerated by the advent of genetic engineering. Perhaps Nasedo was figuring this in when he gave that thousands of years estimate. Rattlebox Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 45    -- 06-28-2000 09:11 AM quote: Originally posted by Palomino Rattlebox : ..take a look at the post I put on the "Rep. & Interp." thread earlier this evening. .... Anyhow, see what you think. I won't answer the whole question, but might start some ideas? Palomino: Sorry, as usual, I've run out of time, I'll try to get over there to look at it later... (BTW Rep. & Interp. is a great thread, which I wish I had time to keep up with.) jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-28-2000 09:16 AM hi there, rattlebox: yeah, i get so confused by this stuff. he also says... "if an archetype is a kind of universal blueprint that underlies natural and human life. in itself unknowable, it serves as a container, from which themes, motifs, tendencies and behaviors arise. we recognize these universal shapers of experience each day in such forms as the hero of a thousand faces, the great mother, the wise old man, the fool, or the divine child" (finneran 1999) each person's individual experience colors how they connect or allign with an archetype. someone will be alligned to the mother archetype or the hero archetype based on how they grew up, what happened etc. for example, is it the all consuming mother,or the abandoning mother so if the allignment represents a non-generative situation that is damaging (vs. a healthier sustaining or generative one) then people develop a complex around a specific issue/archetype. for example perhaps the charactor of michael would have a non-generative allignment to the father archetype due to his foster father etc. the hopeful goal is to make conscious whatever the allignment is so one can access other, more generative facets of the specific archetype in daily life and relationships. hopefully this does make some sort of sense? the idea is that archetypes have fields that resonate with people, "carry information, and they prefigure creation of matter". this sort of shows up in physics these days when they talk about space having a real material structure that gives rise to all the rest of the material world...ie...space isn't being seen as a 'passive backround' anymore. neither are archetypes, they carry power and energy in daily life (see use of the word fields) so it's something of a re-evaluation as to how we define matter...which is partly based on our technology to see or measure matter. (how far can we go in seeing the building blocks of the universe now vs. 50 years ago?) i think of archetypal fields as the way that the archetype acts in a person's life...if we can't (jung) see the actual face of the archetype; we can see the action or influence of the archetype in the person's life partly by how they function, behave, choose, interact, live etc. that's where we see the field? and yes i think that he was saying that archetypes are an intrinsic part of everyone. we all have relationships/allignments to all archetypes. some may be more dominat than others depending on personal experiences/situations sorry to go on so. it's hard for me to articulate this stuff. and some if it can get a bit over the top, i suppose that's the price of being a new-ish idea. anyway, i'm connecting it to the sci-fi-plot-line because of the story line that is being laid out for the roswell charactors. they are essentially on an archetypal quest/task...so looking at how they allign to that task is interesting for me (hopefully i'm not making you all crazy with this.) and in assessing their heritage, essense, and powers; how do their archetypal roles and connections change because of being part alien? and if they have similar powers as the aliens despite their differences, does this mean that the powers are not just about them but about accessing informational fields that are the reflection of the archetype of power? ok, this is totally way over the top, but heck, that's why they call it science fiction? jenlev Elliott   --Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 936    -- 06-28-2000 01:08 PM As usual, this thread is so fertile and far-ranging that I can't remember who may have first said what. For instance, who first suggested the idea that certain powers evinced by Max, Isabel, Michael and Tess may be so varied and individual because they actually reflect the personality and character of each person? As soon as this occurred to me I said 'yes!' to myself because it makes sense, and the show seems to have been laying the groundwork for this all along -- particularly in 'Toy House' with respect to Max. For in this show we see (and Max remembers via a forgotten videotape) the first manifestation of his power to heal. Was this power innate and inborn because it was specifically planted in him, or is it a natural outgrowth of his Christ-like compassion and kindness? If we accept the latter explanation, then Isabel's power to dreamwalk would seem to be a natural outgrowth of her interest and curiosity in human emotions and interactions (some of it perhaps prurient, as with Alex) as well as a deep need for emotional connection to others, something she cannot express in her normal day to day life. Moving to Michael we have something problematical. He is undisciplined, and the scattershot, destructive nature of his powers would seem to be explained by a lack of experience and self-control. But what if they aren't? What if he really can express murderous rage a la Carrie, making him a kind of alien executioner, the perfect second-in-command? On the other hand, we know he liked and respected River Dog and was able to heal RD's broken ankle. I think we have to call this a wash and decide we don't know any more about Michael's potential at this point than he does. But with Tess, this theory would provide proof positive that she is a lying, scheming sorceress, for all of her evident powers so far have dealt with deception and sexual manipulation bordering on a kind of mental rape. The rumor of the addition to the show of a new alien named Sebastian, who hates Tess because of some backstory (yes!) seems promising because he may have the key to exposing her real motives. And surely he will want to destroy her (yes! YES!) There are lots of rich possibilities here, though I have trepidation at the idea of yet another character being added to an already over-large regular cast. Who will get commensurately less screen time next season to make room for Tess, Sebastian, etc.? Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-28-2000 03:27 PM Hi Elliot. I'm at least one of the people that thought personality might have to do with what powers were expressed. Nasedo said they had only scratched the surface of their abilities are, so possibly the podsters have the same powers, but by different personalities and experiences have developed varyng degrees of skill and specialties in them. We have not seen M/Mi/I go out in the desert to power-plink at tin cans after school, or trade pointers on how to use a particular power. They have been hiding in fear of their powers being found out, and up until recently, have had no motivation to increase or hone their skills. Now that they see how important to self (and loved ones') preservation their powers may be, I think they will be doing some mega catching up by teaching each other over summer vacation. Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-28-2000 07:23 PM jenlev...I want to thank you for not allowing my mind to turn to mush during the summer (I'm a teacher and usually just kick back during the break). OK... so to the archetypes thing... I'm really trying to figure this all out... So the archetype is like a template that we try to align or pattern or mind to at a very early stage in our development... I'm thinking you're meaning in infancy or even earlier. IF (and this is a major IF) I'm even on the right track, then that would mean that the archetypes or templates that the podlings are trying to align to were formed while in incubation (because they popped out at an estimated Earth age of 6). If this is so, then they are trying to align themselves to the alien archetype or template, and the problem is that they have been raised by a totally different culture (or you could say species), which would mess with anybody's head. If I was trying to fit into a pattern of a Fiji Islander while being raised in Helsinki, I might find myself a little bit confused about the state of my psyche. Am I anywhere near the ballpark, or am I standing out in left field... in the rain ...without a hat??? Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-28-2000 07:53 PM Jenlev : I guess I have about the same question as Lorrilei1960. I think it was in "4-SQ" that M/I had a conversation about something "primal..instinctive...alien" awakening within themselves(presumably more than sex). They sounded frightened and unsure about it. Could this be tied to the template you were talking about? or am I way off base? rocklowery   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 121    -- 06-28-2000 11:53 PM Quick idea about the handprint issue. It sounds to me like a simple excitation of molecules, like we see in a neon sign when the molecules of certain elements are charged with electricity. Could be that when they apply a large amount of energy into something, such as healing or making physical contact with an object such as the gas pump, they cause the molecules to get excited and generate a silver light. Valenti does make the comment in the pilot that the handprint on the corpse also faded (like Liz's handprint). Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-29-2000 12:09 AM rocklowery- That makes sense to me... the release or use of energy which then dissipates causing the prints to fade is my guess, which is pretty much what you said. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-29-2000 05:43 AM hi there, well lorrilei1960, MY brain is mush this morning, but...as i understand it...the archetypes exist for all of us. as we grow up our allignments to the various archetypes are shaped by our life experience/situation. what we hopefully try to do is address the nature of the allignment through developming a conscious awareness of how it's effecting our life etc. (in jung-land that is). i agree with you and think you are definately on the right track about this. the podsters have the added conflict of there alien archetypes (are there just universal archetypes or does each species gets a different set?) anyway, i like the metaphor about fiji and helsinki...that articulates a lot of the psyche of the show i think. also, if the powers they are using (will use?) are also an expression of an archetypal allignment that will up the ante...especially if the skills they initially develop hinge on personality development/type/experience? palomino: i like that idea of the awakening being either a shift or entrainment to a particular archtype. thank you for clarifying this for me. rocklowery: yeah! excitation of molecules. this fits with what some folks are saying about how every molecule in the universe vibrates at certain frequencies? also: in in talking about the archetypal fields ideas, i was leaping a bit; it's just that it reminded me of the duality of mythology and heritage that the podsters struggle with. and also that if their alien culture has access to skills we don't; how did that develop/occur? and how is that reflected in the clash between nasedo and humans? jenlev Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-29-2000 10:18 AM Jenlev : I'm into hard sciences more than head stuff, but I think I may be catching on to what you are saying, unless I'm going off on a tangent. Please stop me if I am. OK, a couple of questions. 1. If they have followed a human archetype in growing up, and they are now aware of some type of "awakening"(hopefully more than sexual), does that mean they can be changing archetypes? Is it an either/or situation? 2. Can they follow two archetypes - one human one alien? Can they be blended with a little help and mind training? ("You aren't ready yet") Could we see personality changes and internal conflicts arising from this? Would the human archetype stand as a base, and the alien one be a modifier. 3. Have I gotten this totally screwed up? On a humorous note, and someone may have observed this before elsewhere. Tictac(tictac popper) appears first seemingly "normal", gentle, and competant. Nasedo comes next (Tictac disappears), and is a twitchy, unstable brute (no tictacs). Perhaps those are more than tictacs. Psyciatric medication ran out? Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-29-2000 10:54 AM Posted by Palomino's brother Jenlev said: as far as an explanation for the beepers? how about this: it was the sound of everyone's vcr's shutting down after taping the episode? sorry, couldn't resist... seriously, the beepers are difficult to 'explain away', any ideas anyone? I'd think that all the equipment shown works according to known physical laws. Setting off beepers could easily be caused by interferance from the signal's operation. Fluoresent lights interfere with AM radios, for example. As for the relationship between the "podsters'" personalities and powers, it's interesting to see that The Leader is good at healing, The General is good at assaulting, and Isabel is good at understanding others. Tess is good at (how shall I say), fooling others? Probably a useful talent, but not totally benevolant. Has anyone noticed that Michael doesn't take orders well? TELL him to go with Isabel, and he probably won't. Max, dutiful and loyal, may go with Tess out of perceived duty, but may honor his loyalty to Liz. "Arranged marrage? No one arranged it with me!" And why would Isabel accept the loose cannon that is Michael? As a fixer-upper project? Not in character, from what I've seen... Posted by Palomino's brother Reggie. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-29-2000 11:32 AM hi there, hey palomino, what you say is making great sense to me! i'm thinking the podsters can't 'lose' an archetype; but they can adjust the allignment to any particular one. my guess is that you are right, in sci-fi-plot-land they keep the earth archetypes and add the other aliens ones. although i'm still left with the question of whether or not the earth/alien archetypes overlap? kind of like the podster's and alien's powers overlap? oh, definately the tic-tacs were thorazine! hi palomino's brother: great idea about the beepers going off at the end of destiny. although i'm guessing that the max charactor might not be that loyal to the mom-o-gram-dating-game agenda given the recent experiences in the last several episodes? jenlev Author Topic: The Science Fiction of River Dog Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-29-2000 12:52 PM Good afternoon one and all... Reggie - I agree with you about Isabel and Michael... and even in the earthly incarnation she tries to push him around alot...which does not sit well with him. That's why (sorry if I offend anyone) I just can't see those two, who feel and act like siblings, suddenly getting all gooshy about each other. Enough... I will now try to put on my scientist hat... OK... as to the "what exactly is TicTac taking" theories... mood altering drugs is plausible... or ... shapeshifting gives you really bad breath (maybe he had just done his coyote impersonation and was eating ... ok, I won't go there) ... or ... it means nothing at all. I still think that the tictacs were just a way for us (the highly intellegent viewing audience) to ID him since he was changing appearance all the time...kind of like a marker. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-29-2000 12:57 PM Posted by Palomino's Brother Hi, Jenlev! "hi palomino's brother: great idea about the beepers going off at the end of destiny. although i'm guessing that the max charactor might not be that loyal to the mom-o-gram-dating-game agenda given the recent experiences in the last several episodes?" My guess is we'll see him give her a try: go out a few times, probably kiss once or twice. Unless Tess sweetens up a lot, though, I think Max will go (back) to Liz. Now, /can/ Tess be sweet and/or cuddly? Or is she "I'm entitled, so gimmie!" for a while? I hope she'll grow out of that. Maybe she really needs a human boyfriend to work with, like Michael needs Maria. Posted by Palomino's brother Reggie [Edited by Palomino on 06-29-2000 at 01:00 PM] Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-29-2000 01:06 PM AND did anyone else notice that Tess NEVER said the "L" word... not, "I love Max" , just "he's my destiny"... she doesn't even know him (the new and improved human him), so why is she so desperate to have him. In the words of Maria (sort of)"There's something up with that chick." jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-29-2000 01:17 PM hi there, yeah, i think tess is a tad odd. she grew up with nasedo after all...that would be enough to tweak anyone? seriously, it seems as if she was brought up to have some level of contempt for human beings; which would of course mean that she has a certain amount of contempt for herself. and it appears that she doesn't understand her own emotional experiences...and doesn't trust them either. i also haven't seen any 'true' concern about max on her part. she seems to see others as a 'function' or an 'object'...an avenue to getting what she wants. reciprocal relationships don't seem to be the charactor's strong point as the grateful dead sang...."trouble ahead, the lady in red" jenlev Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-29-2000 04:51 PM Hi, this is the real Yellow Horse back again. Please pardon "The Ignorant One" (brother); he is only a recent watcher and has not seen them all. He just saw my having fun talking to intelligent people and wanted to join in. About Tess : She really doesn't fit into THE PLAN. Max is the leader and all-important savior of two planets. Michael is the second in command and future brother-in-law of the leader. Isabel is sister to the leader, daughter of Mommy/dispatcher, and future wife of the second in command. It looks like all three of them have a purpose or are at least wanted. As far as we (or she) knows, Tess is only important as the wife of the leader. If sex is truly necessary to aliens, she has one purpose, which makes Liz the other woman. If sex is not necessary, and she is only there as a convenient recreation for the leader, her position is even more in jepardy from Liz. Being brought up by Nasedo, and possibly being told by him that she is the least important, Tess may be fighting to justify her existance, and Nasedo's efforts. Unfortunately, Nasedo did not know how to raise her to be a kind, considerate, loving person like her intended mate - making them incompatable. I doubt if she is sensitive to others to the point that she can see the disparity. She can't see the incompatability or Max's real love (not just lust) for Liz. Tess probably does not feel much for Max. She may have enjoyed toying with him and misconstrues sex for love. Nasedo may have just shoved the box of pictures at her and said, "This is your mate. Be willing to have sex with him. Oh, by the way, he already has a girlfriend, so you have to win him over. If you can't I may as well kill you." It may not be that Tess wants Max so much as she wants to be indispensible to mission for self preservation. Being raised by an alien as odd as Nasedo, it is no surprise that she has no idea about the right way to go about joining the group who have all been raised as humans. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-29-2000 05:05 PM hi there, palomino: it was nice to hear your brother's thoughts and interesting ideas. i hope he has felt welcome, and will continue to do so. what you are saying about tess makes sense as well. nasedo doesn't strike me as the most patient of teachers. i wonder if riverdog got treated like tess? anyway, tess certainly is focused on surviving. i'm not sure that the charactor that has been portrayed has much sense of a long term future beyond connecting with the podsters. it would be interesting if the writers gave more details about her life experience, and also what she has been told prior to coming to town. jenlev Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-29-2000 08:37 PM Bumping with two questions. What do you think a River Dog/Nasedo reunion would be like? and: River Dog seemed to like the original three podsters well enough; would he like Tess or feel there was something wrong about her? shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-29-2000 09:09 PM quote: Originally posted by Palomino ...would [River Dog] like Tess or feel there was something wrong about her? That should be a revealing episode! Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-30-2000 01:20 AM If River Dog knew Harding/Nasedo well, then he may not be surprised at how little Tessie turned out... But I still think that River Dog's Nasedo was either Tictac (if you like the 2 Nasedo theory) OR River Dog became friends with Nasedo before his elevator stopped going to the top floor. (if you are of the one psycho Nasedo camp) Somehow I cannot see River Dog, the child, getting really friendly with Harding/Nasedo. H/N has as much warmth as a snake... jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-30-2000 05:01 AM hi there, i'm guessing that if there aren't two shapeshifters, that nasedo and riverdog are different from the time they knew each other. the meeting would be a bit odd and strained? riverdog might even avoid such a meeting like the plague. if there are two shapeshifters, and the one riverdog knew was tic-tac...then i imagine that riverdog will take one look at nasedo and retreat too. now if there are two shapeshifters; what would the meeting between 'tic-tac' and riverdog be like? interesting about tess and riverdog. if they had the chance to meet perhaps riverdog could be something of a parental figure (and a humanizing one) for tess. or....maybe not? jenlev LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-30-2000 06:59 AM quote: Originally posted by jenlev hi there, i'm guessing that if there aren't two shapeshifters, that nasedo and riverdog are different from the time they knew each other. the meeting would be a bit odd and strained? ... interesting about tess and riverdog. if they had the chance to meet perhaps riverdog could be something of a parental figure (and a humanizing one) for tess. or....maybe not? jenlev It is interesting that we seem to have dropped the whole reservation/River Dog connection in the last episodes (this in spite of the spoilers that implied they would be a part of the last story arc). There is so much that the writers can do with the native american mystical/shamanistic traditions that I do hope they pick up on some of this in the fall. Those traditions provide our human elements with a possible counterpoint to the "powers" of the aliens. As for River Dog as parental figure...the only two characters in which that has thus been the case is with Michael and to some slight extent Liz. I can not see him interested in Tess--nor Tess noticing him for that matter (in general she distains all non-aliens...can you think of one human she has even been kind/nice to?). If Tess is going to be "humanized" I suspect it will be through her interaction with the humanity of our podsters. I am still very intrigued with River Dog as a character. There is this huge alien abyss when it comes to the early period of Nesedo's history! Unlock the period from 1947-1959 and I think you will find a key to what is going on just below the surface of our storyline. LSS jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-30-2000 08:01 AM hi there, lss: yeah that makes sense; tess would have contempt for riverdog. unless nasedo has told her act otherwise? this presumes that nasedo was 'the man'. i'm not sure even the other podsters can humanize tess at this point. after all, she may not want to go that route? and riverdog may be happy to wash his hands of the whole situation unless he hears about the evil aliens? also, i like the "huge alien abyss"...heh heh heh...by that you aren't referring to the space between nasedo's ears are you? seriously, perhaps the story of that time might be key to resolving a lot of sci-fi and plot inconsistancies? by what process could nasedo be encouraged to say more about those years to the podsters? jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 06-30-2000 at 08:06 AM] Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-30-2000 10:37 AM As Nasedo (now in the form of Pierce) has taken off for parts unknown, I think it will probably be River Dog, or RD through Eddie, who may have to tell the tale of those missing years. I keep wondering how much Nasedo is going to be a part of everything at this point. The way the story left off, he was going to run interferance between the podlings and the Special Unit. He had taken off before the Holomom made her appearance, and so didn't hear the message...I wonder how much he REALLY knows about what's going on??? shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-30-2000 11:19 AM quote: Originally posted by LSS ...I can not see [River Dog] interested in Tess--nor Tess noticing him for that matter (in general she distains all non-aliens... LSS, somewhere earlier I believe you (or someone else) suggested that Tess's negative personna was typical in literature to prepare readers/viewers for her eventual demise and/or martyrdom. I think it could also be a set up for a character development (change of heart) which could result in Martyrdom. If so, River Dog could be a key figure in bringing her to that point, especially if there is any truth to my theory that River Dog is a human/shaman shapeshifter (which would perhaps pique Tess's interest). LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-30-2000 12:39 PM quote: Originally posted by shapeshifter River Dog could be a key figure in bringing her to that point, especially if there is any truth to my theory that River Dog is a human/shaman shapeshifter (which would perhaps pique Tess's interest). shapeshifter (and yes there is a bit of irony here!) I love the shamanistic/shapeshifter as a character in stories--but how do you see RD being one? Shaman I can see--but where do you see any indication of his SS abilities? LSS shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-30-2000 02:16 PM quote: Originally posted by LSS ...but how do you see RD being one? Shaman I can see--but where do you see any indication of his SS abilities? That would be if he turned out to be TicTac Man--not yet revealed, and maybe not ever, admittedly. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-30-2000 02:18 PM Posted by Palomino's brother LSS said, "There is so much that the writers can do with the native american mystical/shamanistic traditions that I do hope they pick up on some of this in the fall. Those traditions provide our human elements with a possible counterpoint to the "powers" of the aliens. Oh, now wait. You're not suggesting something like, Riverdog teaches Liz telepathy (human style)? Or the ability to see through Tess's illusions? (Etc?) Granted, that'd be an interesting development. Help her to get Max back by rescuing him from some fiendish Tess-plan; yes. Of course, it's been done before: see how Willow on BVS became a counterpart to Buffy's Slayer by becoming a Wiccan adept. Hmmm. And Miss Calender got killed by the bad guys... are Riverdog's days numbered? Come to think of it, how do we know that "Nasedo" (aka Tess's dad) isn't in cahoots with the FBI, and has mis-led Tess? Perhaps only Tic-tac is the nanny; and "Nasedo" (who knew so much about the FBI lab) is a Bad Guy who wants to capture/subvert the Podsters to his own fiendish plans; and is using Tess as a lure. He may have been using the FBI to find them, which would explain the camera-watcher having an orb. Is Tess a Bad Guy in disguise, or a mis-led member of the Pod Squad? Is Riverdog's (good guy) "Nasedo", Tess's dad or is he Tic-tac? Posted by Palomino's older brother Reggie [Edited by Palomino on 06-30-2000 at 02:21 PM] LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-30-2000 02:38 PM quote: Originally posted by Palomino's brother...Reggie Oh, now wait. You're not suggesting something like, Riverdog teaches Liz telepathy (human style)? Or the ability to see through Tess's illusions? .... Come to think of it, how do we know that "Nasedo" (aka Tess's dad) isn't in cahoots with the FBI, and has mis-led Tess? Perhaps only Tic-tac is the nanny; and "Nasedo" (who knew so much about the FBI lab) is a Bad Guy who wants to capture/subvert the Podsters to his own fiendish plans; and is using Tess as a lure. He may have been using the FBI to find them, which would explain the camera-watcher having an orb. Is Tess a Bad Guy in disguise, or a mis-led member of the Pod Squad? Is Riverdog's (good guy) "Nasedo", Tess's dad or is he Tic-tac? Posted by Palomino's older brother Reggie Hi Reggie...welcome to the SF threads! To comment on some of your questions: 1) If RD is a shaman then his character represents a traditional access to what might be called "paranormal" powers. At least one Roswell fanfic, for example, has Liz going and living on the reservation for a while learning meditation, etc. Liz' visions already mark her apart from the other humans. Whether these vision are because her own potential has been "stretched " by her encounter with Max or whether she has been physcially changed is not yet clear. If the former then perhaps what you say might be possible. But thus far RD has shown little interest in our humans other than that one episode (RD). In many ways RD is an enigma. 2) As for Nesedo's character--the one episode that continues to bother me is TLV (aside from that lab scene that is). It is hard for me to go back and understand the on screen dynamics between T and N and our podsters given what I know now. There seems to be so much subtext that simply doesn't make sense (as yet). Your guess is as good as mine as to whether either one is working with the FBI (or perhaps simply using the FBI). I would't be surprised but at the same time I don't feel confident enough to make that identification. Some remaining questions from that episode: a) What is the relationship between I and N? why does N respond to her presence like he does? b) What is the true relationship between T and N? Is there more (or less) than what we've come to believe? c) What is Nesedo's "past" (and present) when it comes to the FBI? To all those artifacts? See what I mean? Again--welcome Reggie!!! LSS jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-30-2000 03:35 PM hi there, if nasedo is who he says...then i guess he had a good idea of what the mom-o-gram entailed. and gathering up the other fbi agents may have been his priority. also, if he felt the message was directed at the podsters he may have thought it wasn't his place to stick around for it. if the outcome of the podsters being 'made' and the experiment/plan was far from what the aliens expected...then the relationship between tess and nasedo was probably a combination of emeshment, fear, over-protectiveness etc. my guess is that nasedo is afraid of the podsters. the degree of fear may vary depending on which one of them he is interacting with? after all, from his perspective they are part alien (human)... jenlev LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-30-2000 03:58 PM quote: Originally posted by jenlev hi there,...my guess is that nasedo is afraid of the podsters. the degree of fear may vary depending on which one of them he is interacting with? after all, from his perspective they are part alien (human)... jenlev Hi jenlev: Interesting "take" on Nesedo. Who knows what he thought of the whole idea in the first place (assuming he is a bit more than a common foot soldier)? And who knows how our podsters died? Under what conditions? The last fifteen minutes of Destiny has to take the prize for being the biggest "plot-tease" of the season!!! LSS jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 06-30-2000 04:34 PM hi there, lss: yeah, that 'plot tease' has me cross-eyed! is it october yet?! imagine if there was conflict occuring on the alien planet about the podster plan? and just how many of the aliens gave into their oppressors, or collaborated with them? and how would nasedo explain the details of the podster's prior death? talk about a psychological kick in the gut for the podsters. jenlev rocklowery   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 121    -- 06-30-2000 04:37 PM One quick comment about Tess's lack of human qualities: if you had been raised by an alien who went through the tortures Max was told about in WR and had been on the run your whole life, you'd be suspicious of the "humans" as well. Also, children tend to reflect their parent's opinions/views and Tess does a very good job of doing that. It looks like she was brought up to believe that humans are only there to be used to achieve what you want or need. Max also makes the statement in destiny that Nasedo doesn't know how to use the orbs otherwise he would've used them to get home long ago. Tess probably also feels this need to escape Earth. Jamethiel Level 1 Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 4    -- 06-30-2000 04:43 PM I'm a newbie, but I just had to de-lurk to pose a possibility about Nasedo. Perhaps, Nasedo didn't crash with the podsters. Perhaps, he's been on earth for centuries? It would certainly explain his antique collection! In which case, he wouldn't know what he was supposed to do with the podsters, just that they had crashed and he received a message to "help." As to Nasedo's reaction to Isabel, he also seemed pretty creepy about Liz. So maybe it is a male/female thing with aliens...anyway, food for thought. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 06-30-2000 08:08 PM Posted by Palomino's brother LSS said: "2) As for Nesedo's character--the one episode that continues to bother me is TLV (...) Some remaining questions from that episode: a) What is the relationship between I and N? why does N respond to her presence like he does?" Because he hadn't realized that she's one of the podsters; he took her for just another nosey kid that Tess is supposed to keep a safe distance from. Which might explain why Tess is so unfeeling at times: she's been brought up to stay away from Those Creatures . "b) What is the true relationship between T and N? Is there more (or less) than what we've come to believe?" My first guess is that the others hatched a little early, or that N got there late. He was going to collect/adopt them all, but only got Tess. Since the others were gotten by the human adoption machinery, he couldn't interfere, and lost track of them. "c) What is Nesedo's "past" (and present) when it comes to the FBI? To all those artifacts?" My guess is that he's been working as a low-level FBI agent for some time, hoping for a lead on the other podsters. When they surfaced, he went rogue to collect them for himself. If so, then he had to have some official way in & out of the Lab. Curious... LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-30-2000 08:30 PM quote: Originally posted by Jamethiel I'm a newbie, but I just had to de-lurk to pose a possibility about Nasedo. Perhaps, Nasedo didn't crash with the podsters. Perhaps, he's been on earth for centuries? It would certainly explain his antique collection! In which case, he wouldn't know what he was supposed to do with the podsters, just that they had crashed and he received a message to "help." As to Nasedo's reaction to Isabel, he also seemed pretty creepy about Liz. So maybe it is a male/female thing with aliens...anyway, food for thought. Your first post? the SF threads are Honored!!! Welcome!!! You know a while back two of my favorite posters (Rosta and amx) talked about the possibility of an alien colony on earth of a lond standing nature. So you are "not alone" in your theory!!! And yeah--nesedo does seem a bit creepy to Liz doesn't he? Of course as Max/Nesedo he does warn her that all he cares about are the podsters. But that doesn't explain his freaked reaction to Isabel. Again--welcome! LSS rocklowery   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 121    -- 06-30-2000 09:05 PM I think brother yellow horse has a point about Nasedo's treatment/response to Isabel. At that point I don't think they knew about Michael and Isabel. All of the pictures in the box were of Max, who is the only one they are sure about. This is just another bit of proof for my ongoing obsession with the two SS theory: the SS in Blind Date left a picture of ALL THREE of them, indicating that he knows about all of them! Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 06-30-2000 09:52 PM If Harding/Nasedo didn't know about Isabel and Michael, it would be a simple explanaition as to his reaction to her showing up at his house... BUT If Harding/Nasedo DID know about Isabel and Michael, maybe he reacted to them because his focus is on Max, and he considers them a bit of a glitch in his master plan. Perhaps his whole aim is to gain influence and control over Max, his once and future King. He may have even planted the idea in Tess's curly little head that she must "get" Max... He may not have done it overtly, he could have just suggested (many, many times) that they had to find Max because he was her desting (gag). If he has control of Tess, who has Max in her clutches, then that would be a secondary access route to him. Being in control of the Leader of your people... now that's power! Nemo   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 421    -- 06-30-2000 10:01 PM Rocklowery, thanks for that observation. I have been mostly convinced of the two-Nasedo theory (don't know if they're both shapeshifters) for Rosta's reason, but you have given us another one. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 06-30-2000 10:17 PM quote: Originally posted by rocklowery This is just another bit of proof for my ongoing obsession with the two SS theory: the SS in Blind Date left a picture of ALL THREE of them, indicating that he knows about all of them! Very nice piece of sleuthing!!! Well done! Now the issue is: 1) does this mean that Harding was uneasy about Isabel for some reason other than he simply "didn't know her"? or 2) does this mean we have two separate entities...Harding and the mysterious figure at the end of SH? or 3) does this mean we have a blooper? (remember that infamous palm print in Pilot?) Regardless of what it ultimately means--that was a VERY nice observation!!! Keep it up! LSS Nemo   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 421    -- 06-30-2000 10:17 PM quote: Originally posted by Jamethiel Perhaps, Nasedo didn't crash with the podsters. Perhaps, he's been on earth for centuries? I got an odd feeling when Liz addressed "Mr. Harding" on first acquaintance and he replied "it's the 21st century -- call me Ed." How many other centuries has he seen? Maybe he has visited a lot of times as well as places. Michael to H./Nasedo: "I've been looking for you for a long time." H/N: "Not as long as I've been looking for you." If this is a time-travel story, and if AlienMom's plan was to hide the re-created podsters while they grow up, she had to choose a time as well as a place. Suppose the evil pursuers had a lot of searching to do in the time coordinate as well as space? shapeshifter   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 352    -- 06-30-2000 11:22 PM That 21st century comment also fits with the artifacts...reminds me of genies in bottles... Also, LSS, on the Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology - Thread #3 thread, CelestialAngel* posted:quote: If Max had a destiny on his home planet, then wouldn't his death be apart of that destiny? But he was brought back when his essence was mixed with Human DNA! So wouldn't his Destiny be different? ...which makes me ask: Is there such a thing as unfullfilled Destiny that can be fullfilled through artificial engineering? I suppose modern medicine attempts this all the time. And even our medical ethics and laws debate the question (e.g.: abortion, euthanasia, even war). This seems to go back to the debate of whether or not the home planet destiny is even worthy of fullfillment. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 07-01-2000 04:44 AM hi there, wow, great ideas folks! and if nasedo is 'immortal as we understand it'...and has been on earth for ages; that might go a ways to explain his casual stance towards killing others. he may not comprehend the meaning mortality (goodness knows we have a hard enough time with it ourselves.) i may be way off base (it's early today) but is it possible that nasedo didn't initially know that tess took all those pictures of max? or did he take the photos from the fbi folks? someone mentioned the idea that nasedo had been undercover at the fbi, interesting thought. and i like rocklowery's idea about the photo thing being proof of two shapeshifters...but why would tic-tac burn the photo of the three of them? also, is it possible for fbi quality equipment to end up in odd places (and with odd people), after all, the fbi has to buy it from somewhere/one? i think artificial engeneering would be an attempt to prefigure fate rather then destiny (sorry to repeat...fate vs. destiny... i'm thinking of fate defined as when someone has no conscious choice or processing about their life role/experience. destiny defined as when they engage actively with the process and incorporate choice of how they respond to their role/experience etc.) i expect nasedo would be uneasy about all the podsers...they are essentially unknown to him...i'm still thinking that the alien's were not exactly sure what the outcome of the 'cloning' would be...even if nasedo and others had been on earth for a long time. jenlev Karst   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 110    -- 07-01-2000 09:55 AM I thought the reaction was really directed at Tess, though prompted by Isabel's presence. Nasedo seemed to think Tess had invited Isabel over, and didn't like the idea. When Nasedo says in the pod chamber that Pierce is close, I think he's afraid he and Tess are under surveillance, or else he knows they are. He also knows that Max & Co. (esp. Max, of course) are under surveillance. It sort of increases the suspiciousness quotient of everybody if connections start getting made between the groups. It may make them look like one big organized group. Also, I get the feeling Tess was sort of acting as a free agent more than Nasedo wanted. He may have told her to avoid Max, Isabel and the others to avoid looking more suspicious to the FBI. We know he didn't like it when she brought them to the pod chamber. But she did it. From their conversation in the chamber, it sounded to me she is more eager to actually get to know Max & Co. than Nasedo wants her to. LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 07-01-2000 10:05 AM quote: Originally posted by Karst I thought the reaction was really directed at Tess, though prompted by Isabel's presence. Nasedo seemed to think Tess had invited Isabel over, and didn't like the idea. That is an interesting observation. From what we have seen of Tess thus far she wouldn't inspire MY confidence (that's for sure). One gets the sense that Nesedo really does patronize her--perhaps Tess acting on her own is something he neither trusts nor encourages. That cave scene in Destiny had all the flavor of his "handing her over" to Max and Michael didn't it? Which brings up the status of females on their home planet. While the momogram is obviously from a female we do not know what happen to the father (if he is even alive at this point). And the cut dialogue from that scene had Isabel portrayed as a warrior in her own right. So it is kind of up in the air whether Nesedo's patronizing attitude is Tess-specific or reflects a larger attitude concerning females. He certainly hasn't related to Isabel in any significant way--but as was mentioned before that may simply be due to the scarcity of narrative/stage time. LSS Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 07-01-2000 11:09 AM Real Yellow Horse back again. Interesting theory if Ed Harding had been around awhile. That would mean: 1. He was not in the crash/shoot down. 2. He may have been waiting for them to arrive, but because it's landing was not maybe planned for that area, he was not present. 3. He would not have been counted by the FBI as one of the four. 4. Then there was ANOTHER alien that escaped from the Eagle Rock Military Base, plus the one in captivity for three years, plus the one I believe escaped from the crash site with the second orb and eluded the military(so was not counted as one of the four). Looks like we could have aliens coming out of the woodwork in Roswell. Also, if the Ed Harding alien was around for a while, does that mean he was a scout for the the podster-hydroponics team, or not part of the "plan" - even one of the bad aliens waiting for the good ones to arrive so he could sabatage their mission? If "Ed" was a bad alien, who was waiting for them (getting into time travel again maybe as suggested by Nemo), then maybe he is trying to control the podsters through Tess as previously suggested by Lorrilei1960. jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 07-01-2000 11:38 AM hi there, with nasedo away tess seems even more like a loose cannon. if nasedo(as harding etc.)was fearful of tess's potential for misbehavior, he might mask this with what appears to be condesention. especially if as a charactor he is invested in appearing in control. it makes me wonder what the 'school-of-nasedo' was like to attend. what rules/lessons did he teach about her role, earth culture, and her relationships with the others? how much can we expect nasedo (or any other shapeshifters) to completely understand the subtle aspects of our culture... especially given the speed with which it changes. would it be as hard for them as it would be for us... no matter how long they were here? (not sure, but i tend to be optomisistic about a being's ability to integrate.) but this would impact how nasedo functions around gender roles. it might even impact how he, or the mom-o-gram describes the alien gender roles? jenlev LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 07-01-2000 12:30 PM quote: Originally posted by Palomino Real Yellow Horse back again. Interesting theory if Ed Harding had been around awhile. That would mean: 3. He would not have been counted by the FBI as one of the four. If that is the case then there have been some "red herrings" in the plot. Didn't Nesedo allude to knowing about (indeed breaking out of) the Eagle Rock Military installation in The White Room? But you can still have an older alien colony on earth even if Nesedo was on the ship, Certainly the home planet wouldn't have sent their past/future leaders to a planet infiltrated with the enemy without some type of support system in place? If there are bad aliens out there, there very well might be good ones as well!!! Of course, another option is that Nesedo is of the older colony and his "breaking out" of the installation had nothing to do with the aliens from the crash. LSS pixiedude   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 67    -- 07-01-2000 12:50 PM quote: Originally posted by Karst I thought the reaction was really directed at Tess, though prompted by Isabel's presence. Nasedo seemed to think Tess had invited Isabel over, and didn't like the idea. As a Mindwarper (Tess/Isabel fan), I have to speculate, maybe Mr. Ed was picking up on the same vibe between Tess and Isabel that I did, and didn't like it because a)it could undermine his plan to pair Tess with Max, or b)it would mean that his "daughter" isn't completely heterosexual. As far as the aliens being able to time-travel, I took that for granted after he told them in White Room that their powers were those that humans had evolved a few thousands years into the future. How else would he know? Lorrilei1960   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 280    -- 07-01-2000 01:06 PM (I am really trying to fight the time travel idea... I just don't want that to be the big "surprise" key to everything. ) OK... Mr. Ed (I like that name) says that their powers are human only more evolved (I'm paraphrasing)... If they had an idea of what humans were capable of, just by observation and experimentation, and we have to assume that they did observe, etc., AND if their technology is advanced enough to combine human DNA with the "essences" of their own dead people, then surely they would be able to extrapolate potential talents which very likely would be developed in humans 1000 years from now. I don't think they knew exactly what would happen, but they probably had a very good idea, and a lot of hope... (Holomom says, "If you are seeing this...." which means they had some doubt of the podlings survival) Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 07-01-2000 02:49 PM LSS: I agree about Nasedo having been in the crash and was one of the four, that was kind of the point of my lsat post, but was so sleep-deprived and ticked at my original post being lost, that I didn't do a very good explaining what I meant. Sorry. I have napped in the interum. During my nap, believe I have been dreamwalked or had a flash : In WR Pierce questions Max about killing of FBI agents in the past, but Max says he doesn't know. He asks Max if it was one of the others. Max says "What others?" probably thinking he's protecting Isabel and Michael. Pierce, impatient w/him, doesn't even go there. He says instead, "You know, I might not have been around in 1947, but I know all about the crash. About the four aliens they captured. Two dead, Two alive." He KNOWS the other kids are aliens. He listened to the tapes while he was holding the other orb. He's trying to get Max to admit that he has had contact with an adult alien - ONE OF THE OTHERS - plural. He knows there is more than one alien from the crash alive. One is the one that escaped - Pierce thinks he's Nasedo. The second could be the one held in captivity for three years, OR There could be more that were not among the four captured. It makes sense, because the alien essences and the incubation equipment would have been in the hands of the government unless some, or one, of the aliens got away to hide the important things. There was time before the military got there. Perhaps the two that were captured were injured and could not get away. Also, someone had to elude the soldier to burry the other orb in Liz's vision. Returning later. Pick it apart till then. Author Topic: The Science Fiction of River Dog jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 07-01-2000 03:07 PM hi there, well that was a very productive nap palomino! it makes good sense that pierce was trying to get information out of max about the escaped alien(s) ... or others that the fbi weren't even sure of. after all, the fbi is still trying to figure out what the alien agenda is (despite their assumption about colonization) since we don't know how much time elapsed between the crash and the capture, it's hard to say if the ones with the pods and orbs were in the crash, or already on earth when the crash happened. i agree that nasedo was probably in the crash... it explains so much of his behavior/functioning. and if there were other aliens on earth before (etc) where are they now? i still think that things were in total chaos on the home planet... possibly the aliens escaped to earth by the skin of their collective teeth (or whatever they chew with). imagine the mad scramble just before and after the crash to try and salvage as much of the plan as possible. oh, this leads me back to the podsters being 'started' after the alien(s) escaped from the fbi? also, i may be way off base here, but i don't recall any equipment besides the pods themselves in the pod chamber. what does this imply about the cloning process, the alien reproductive system, and my bad eyesight? jenlev deidra e, jones   --Registered: May 2000 Posts: 513    -- 07-01-2000 03:30 PM Time for Part "2"????? Good thread, enjoyable reading. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 07-01-2000 04:53 PM Maybe the aliens were visiting here for quite some time and had picked up DNA many times for study and even taken it "home". Maybe they had been experimenting with it on their homeworld and had some on hand when the Royal Assasinations took place, and "The Plan" was hatched. They could have done the altering/engineering on the homeworld, sending embryos frozen and ready-to-use. The other possibility is that they sent just the alien components of each, letting the alien scientists complete the task after they arrived. For this they would need a safe lab that would have to be stocked with their own technology and equipment. If things were in total chaos on the homeworld, it would have been easier to just do the engineering there, in secret, than trying to smuggle out alot of things that would be a dead giveaway of what you were doing. Besides, in a journey of great distances, you try not to take alot of luggage. The way Mommy Dearest put it, I got the idea they had been sent ready-to-use. (Their haste might explain how THE EARS slipped past those engineers.) We don't know how long the podsters were "frozen" before they were "started". Maybe the aliens had to repair the equipment, or they had to wait for the right time so they would be sexually mature when the constellations alined. Any equipment they needed beyond the actual pods could have been descretely removed from the pod chamber when it was no longer necessary. Or maybe they just haven't shown that corner of the chamber yet. As for the orbs, Pierce said they retreaved(sp) one from the crash, but they had known there was another one and they have never been able to find it. Liz's visions showed a soldier giving chase to whoever was carrying the second orb. Then we see soil being thrown over it as it is burried. If the alien carrying it was being chased by the military after the crash, he would not have stopped to burry it until he was sure he was safely away from his pursuers - otherwise it would fall into enemy hands. Does that mean the alien who burried it got away? As I recall from Roswell documentaries, the aliens would have had at least one day, possibly more, before the military moved in on them. Pleanty of time for surviving aliens to use their technology to hide equipment in the pod chamber, and maybe to get away - leaving the injured and/or volenteers behind as decoys. We don't know their morality on this subject or if the injured ones may have even suggested it for the good of the mission. Some things we know are: 1. Ed Harding was captured because he escaped the FBI, and had been counted as one of the four. 2. Ed Harding was the one who lived with the Indians, knowing River Dog and Atherton. He knew about the stones in RD's posession. He is Nasedo, and left the cave symbols for whoever came after him. * River Dog said that he was only to show the cave symbols to those who could pass the test(show powers of creating light). That means the Bad Aliens don't have that power, or he wants them to know about it too.* In the words of Sheriff Valenti, "How am I doin' so far?" jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 07-01-2000 05:27 PM hi there, palomino: you are making sense to me i think that riverdog doesn't want the 'bad-aliens' to know about the cave or the writing. having spent some time around nasedo, riverdog probably has a pretty good sense of what to watch for? or perhaps he has no idea the evil aliens exist? about the orbs: odd that the aliens would put all their orbs in one basket (so to speak), if they had time to really plan the escapade; why not send as many orbs as possible. those things are small, they would hopefully have had an awareness of the risk of loss, destruction or theft? this brings up the possibility of an intereting easter-pod hunt next season in roswell jenlev Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 07-01-2000 05:52 PM About River Dog knowing about the Bad Aliens: RD told Max "the man" was afraid "they" would kill him. When Max asked who he had meant, RD said he didn't know, "the man" had not told him. I think if Nasedo really had trusted and liked RD, and had befriended the tribe (by healing people?), he may have left and never returned in an effort to lead the bad guys (human or alien) away from the reservation and the Mesalika people. This in itself is unusual for Nasedo and makes me think once again that there is a very important connection to Native Americans. Either : 1. Max and maybe the others are important to the Native Americans as well as the aliens, 2. the Indians have a long history with the S.S.ers and respect/like/feel loyalty to them, 3. or the Native Americans are going to be important to the S.S.ers species in the future and Nasedo has to protect them. Protecting the tribe out of friendship alone is out of character - after all, he killed Atherton who was also a friend. The tribe seems equally protective of Nasedo, by the reactions the podsters encountered upon their first contact with them. Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 07-01-2000 08:12 PM Posted by Palomino's brother pixiedude said: "As a Mindwarper (Tess/Isabel fan), I have to speculate, maybe Mr. Ed was picking up on the same vibe between Tess and Isabel that I did, and didn't like it because a)it could undermine his plan to pair Tess with Max, or b)it would mean that his "daughter" isn't completely heterosexual. As far as the aliens being able to time-travel, I took that for granted after he told them in White Room that their powers were those that humans had evolved a few thousands years into the future. How else would he know?" Two points. First, remember that Tess is the first gal that Isabel has been able to let down her (human) face with. Max and Michael have been able to be pals, but Isabel has been alone. Remember her "ice queen" distance from (human) people? Now she may have a friend. It's probably the same for poor Tess: stuck with Nasedo for a companion, she's probably happy to see any potential (fellow alien) friend! I don't think it's sexual. Besides any alien morality problems, it's a plumbing problem. As for future human powers, the aliens have obviously studied us, and know all about us. Human genome project? Done, long ago. If they are a spacefaring race from another world, it would explain why they are physicaly ALIEN, the Bad Guys are also (appearently) ALIEN, and the podsters are also at least in part ALIEN. (Remember the blood test?) Since they are a spacefaring race, they know us, and probably other races (the Enemy?) as well. They can therefore tell that we have certain abilities which are latent, like certain primates which can talk in sign language. (Who knew?) My point is that since they can tell that humans should be able to do certain things, they've primed the podsters' abilities to do those (as opposed to leaving the kids less capable than they might be). The comment that other humans can/will do such in the future owes something to Murphey's Law. "If an ability can develop, it will develop; and in the most disruptive way possible." Posted by Palomino's brother Reggie [Edited by Palomino on 07-01-2000 at 08:19 PM] Karst   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 110    -- 07-01-2000 08:26 PM quote: Originally posted by Palomino As I recall from Roswell documentaries, the aliens would have had at least one day, possibly more, before the military moved in on them. Pleanty of time for surviving aliens to use their technology to hide equipment in the pod chamber. . . . . . River Dog said that he was only to show the cave symbols to those who could pass the test(show powers of creating light). That means the Bad Aliens don't have that power, or he wants them to know about it too. Palomino: I had wondered how so much stuff could have been hidden in the pod chamber before the feds moved in. I still think there might have been a second ship - maybe in 1959. Something seems to have happened then, which might have been the source of the falling out between Atherton and Nasedo. But maybe the survivors of the crash had enough time to do everything, and enough of them survived to finish the mission. It hadn't occured to me that the ones the feds found might be volunteers, or just the injured, and that any number of others might have escaped to set up the pods, etc. (But if there were a lot of survivors, then why only Nasedo to meet Tess? Why wasn't the chamber better monitored so that M/M/I were taken care of, instead of lost?) I like the idea that the evil aliens cannot make light. Aside from metaphorical value, the mommogram worried me with its "You'll know them only by the evil within." It's also comforting that the podsters have powers the evil ones don't. Hopefully some of their more powerful abilities (dreamwalking, Michael's lightning bolt) are unique to the podsters as well. (Now I hope the evil ones themselves don't have their own special powers, besides shapeshifting.) LSS   --Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1164    -- 07-01-2000 08:59 PM quote: Originally posted by deidra e, jones Time for Part "2"????? Good thread, enjoyable reading. Deidre: Tomorrow the SF of Leaving Normal Thread will be up and we can continue there. The SF of BB thread (which was really the second time around--the first was last March) just didn't draw the continued activity as this one did. Hopefully people will "migrate" to the new SF thread tomorrow. LSS [Edited by LSS on 07-01-2000 at 09:01 PM] Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 07-01-2000 09:43 PM Originally posted by Karst : (But if there were a lot of survivors, then why only Nasedo to meet Tess? Why wasn't the chamber better monitored so that M/M/I were taken care of, instead of lost?) There could be alot of reasons: 1. Nasedo/Harding got away from Eagle Rock Military Base. Since he escaped alone, he may have not been in contact with the other survivor(s). 2. Nasedo left that cave message in 1959 which was never answered as far as River Dog has said. Up to 1959, he may still have been out of touch, with anyone else. He could have desided to proceed alone with the plan anytime from his escape onward. He may have presumed the other(s) were dead or had gone into hiding (maybe giving up or turning traitor.) 3. Perhaps the other(s) ran into FBI/bad alien trouble, not making it in time for the hatching. 4. Maybe Nasedo/Harding IS a renegade, and is keeping the other(s) out on purpose, for his own power play with the naive child-leader. Maybe they are looking for him. 5. Maybe Tictac was not well, and not up to performing his duties. Remember, he didn't look too good after feeding Hank to the subterranean wildlife. 6. Maybe they ARE in contact and are working separately for safety, ensuring that somebody survives to complete the mission. I can't help but wonder about Dr. M. Margolan, from MD. He knew so much about Topolsky's case. He knew her doctor(had to for impersonation). He knew where she would be the night of her capture in Roswell. (She only told Michael where to meet her -infront of the FBI camera. That means he had to be impersonating Dr. Margolan infront of the FBI also, so they would share this info. Unfortunately, this opens up another can of worms and further speculation.) With all this traveling over the country (?>Roswell>MD>Roswell>etc.), Tess in tow, he is one busy SS. Anyhow, if Tictac is Dr.M. and Tictac is a separate entity than Nasedo, then Tictac informed Nasedo of Topolsky's death (WR), (or he happened to overhear it and this has been a useless point - agh - I hate it when I ruin my own sleuthing theories). Nemo   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 421    -- 07-01-2000 11:32 PM quote: Originally posted by Palomino Some things we know are: 1. Ed Harding was captured, because he escaped the FBI, and had been counted as one of the four. 2. Ed Harding was the one who lived with the Indians, knowing River Dog and Atherton.... In the words of Sheriff Valenti, "How am I doin' so far?" I think we can't be sure of #2. Now that we have seen Ed Harding impersonate some people and kill others, we don't know that the original Nasedo who trusted River Dog and Atherton is the same one who killed Atherton, and it sounds out of character, as Rosta pointed out. rocklowery   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 121    -- 07-02-2000 12:45 AM Pierce says that they captured two aliens, one escaped. Topolsky says that there is an alienhunter, SS buried deep within the FBI. What if the one that escaped was the one they studied for three years, RD's nasedo. If the experiments were as nasty as Max indicated, then that would explain why tictac needs the medication whenever he shapeshifts. It might also account for his shapeshifting being so different from Mr. Ed's. Mr. Ed told Liz (sic)"you have no idea the number of different people I've been." He's had more practice taking other people's forms. It also looked like he stole that one agent's "essence" after he killed him to impersonate him. Maybe that is part of the evil within, or how the aliens got the essence of Max et al. Brother yellow horse, loved your spin on Murphy's law! jenlev   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 214    -- 07-02-2000 02:29 PM hi there, i like the idea of nasedo and tic-tac being in some form of contact. although i'm still wondering which one of them was captured for three years, which one escaped quickly... and which one(????) might be either working undercover at the fbi, or may have convinced the fbi that he had 'turned'. it still makes my brain hurt. and there is the potential that nasedo is 'crazy like a fox' as far as his varied presentations and impersonations. it might be very useful for a single shapeshifter to make other people think there are more then one of them/him? i say this just to play devil's advocate as i'm still leaning towards there being two (at least?). jenlev [Edited by jenlev on 07-02-2000 at 05:54 PM] Palomino   --Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 202    -- 07-02-2000 05:48 PM Real quick because I have to go... NEMO: In "Destiny", Tess told the others that Nasedo couldn't die and if anything like that happened to him she was to get the healing stones from an old Indian named River Dog. That means that either Harding is Nasedo, or is in contact with Nasedo. I personally believe that Harding is Nasedo, because when Max referred to him as Nasedo, Tess did not seem surprised and knew who he meant. She then also started calling him that. If he raised her all those years, at some point, he would have told her about his years with the Indians, and mentioned the name they gave him. ("Daddy, tell me a story." - I don't gather Harding is long on imagination; she probably heard stories of his exploits - or executions). FP Level 1 Registered: May 2000 Posts: 24    -- 07-02-2000 06:08 PM I may be wrong.. .but weren't there 5 healing stones in "The Balance". In Destiny there were only 4. (Causing Liz to be left out of the group's revival of Nesedo.) What happened to the 5th stone? Nemo   --Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 421    -- 07-02-2000 06:27 PM Palomino, you might be right but I think we still can't be sure. Tess has seen only the last ten years or so (supposedly). She seemed unaware until recently that the person she knows as Harding/Nasedo has been killing people, and makes an issue of it the next time she sees him (in the cave scene); he seems inclined to deny it at first ("are you going to believe Max or me?"), before he decides to own up to it and even take pride in it ("if I need to kill, I kill"). There is no one else around to impress, so I don't think Tess is in deceiver mode at that point. River Dog hasn't seen Nasedo since he appeared to kill Atherton in 1959. The present Harding may have been Nasedo all along as you suggest, or he may have stolen that role (and found out about the stones etc.) from 1959 on, as Rosta suspected. Tess may not know the difference. Well, I reread your post where you draw the inference that Harding is either Nasedo or in contact with Nasedo. OK, but the contact may have been brief and hostile. The original Nasedo may be Harding, may be dead, or may be still out there. [Edited by Nemo on 07-02-2000 at 06:50 PM] All times are PT(US) Copyright (c) Fan Forum 2000. All rights reserved.