Fan Forum Roswell The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions (Page 1) This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-03-2000 05:32 AM Aside from the steamy sexual scenes, SH raises some intriguing questions for the Science Fiction framework of Roswell: 1. WHERE ARE THE ALIENS FROM? Prior to this we've just seen a constellation in the night skies. Now we have a suggested galaxy (The Whirlwind galaxy) and a possible star (a red giant) 2. WHY ARE THE ALIENS ON EARTH? EMERGENCY LANDING VS DESTINATION? This is still not clear, but before this all we had was "crash" imagery (accident). With the visions of the alien craft in space, however, it almost appears that earth is more of a destination than an simply an emergency landing. Moreover, the fact that the aforementioned star is "dying" offers possibilities of an "exodus". [By the way--go back and look at the kitchen make-out scene again--does that look like a warp trip, explosion, and stellar debris field?] 3. ARE INTERSPECIES SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS POSSIBLE? Although this has been a question throughout the series, it dominates this episode. Maria, Max and Liz all raise it, and glowing hickies/odd looking rashes/fevered sexual addiction all remind us that there are some very real physical barriers that need to be addressed. Moreover, the words of the science teacher (that most of the audience areignoring in favor of watching Max pass a note to Liz) are really Katims' reminder to us all: "The conceit that alien lifeforms would be like us in any essential way would be the wishful thinking of a lonely planet that once believed it was the center of the universe." 4. WHAT IS THE NATURE AND FUNCTION OF THE ALIEN ARTIFACT? On one level this is the narrative focus of this entire episode. In the first frame we see the broken radio tower in the desert and hear the beeping. The episode rapidly concludes after the artifact is found. Liz suggests it is a message beacon of sorts. Or is the message it is sending more personal? Ever ask yourself why the sexual frenzy begins after we first hear it? What do you think? Camryn Member Posts: 1037 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 06:10 AM Excellent! Simply excellent! I'm gonna try my best to address each of your points. (Be warned, it's not even 9 am yet, so my brain is still functioning at the zygote level! lol) 1. Where are they from?: It has been the driving force of the series that they alien trio had no recollection of their origins. With the introduction of the constellation, it does give some direction as to a starting point...but keep in mind that a constellation can hold many, many things. (I want to say galaxies, but I don't think thats right) 2. Why are they here?: I'd definitely have to agree that it looked more like a destination rather than a "fluke". I have always assumed that they were a scientific race who came frequently throughout time to observe. If this is the case, then the theory that they were looking for somewhere to re-locate in preparation for their star to nova seems much more likely. Why they crashed still isn't clear...was it a landing gone wrong or a failed take off. It would be interesting to see which it was. 3. Can they interlock?: It seems as though the relations between humans and aliens is in direct corelation to their emotional state. M&L seem to be able to connect with each other effortlessly. Without anything to go on, other than the glowing hickies and such, I would hesitate to think that there would be no "complications". If nothing else, the sensation (and I don't just mean physically) should be different. The alien triad has never mated before, nevermind outside of their species. It would only seem logical that there would be some kind of difference. On the other hand, the argument could be made that since they've been raised as humans some of their physiology has changed to adapt, making reproduction/copulation different than how it might be on thier home planet. The issue of "inter-species" breeding has always been left to the discretion of the writers. Captain Kirk was able to "be with" women of all colours and variations with nary a side effect. Klingons, who are a warrior breed, have managed to effectively mate with humans (ouch!) and so have Romulans and Vulcans. I'd like to see them address the issue of the differences more in depth than the husky breathless Q&A we witnessed at Michael's apartment. (Although Max can be shirtless again...I have no problems with that! ) 4. What is that thing?: Clearly a beacon of some sort, the orb has chosen to channel its message through M&L. I wondered if maybe the orb wasn't part of some mating ritual. Like, the partner would be able to "make it glow" (or whatever) and that would be the one you mated with. Who knows...it was on the ship. Maybe everyone is supposed to have one and when the object of your affection makes it glow, that's when you can do the deed. It seems too weird, too suspect, that it would be a message sent to them that only Liz could see when she was aroused by Max. I hope that they explain that more, cause I'll feel cheated if they don't. [Camryn takes a sip of water, parched from her early morning ramble] I'm pretty sure I've said things that only make sense to me, but once my brain kicks in...I'll try to make myself more clear. tvfox Member Posts: 34 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-03-2000 06:23 AM As far as the Science Fiction--I wonder that few have mentioned the clues we got from Liz's visions. She saw a galaxy and a Red Giant--a dying star. In her first vision there was a lot of debrie. I'm thinking that the aliens' planet was about to be destroyed by the death of its sun. Members of the race were redesigned to appear like humans and sent to Earth. There were two women and two men so that the race could be propagated on Earth. Nasedo is perhaps not even a person but an entity that accompanied them meant to show them what was their destiny. I have not read the books so I don't know if this question is addressed there, but I think that Max, Iz and Michael cannot return to their planet and may be the last of their race. Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 06:32 AM Really interesting post, well thought out and written. I think we are supposed to believe that an alien race was forced to leave their planet because their sun was dying. This does suggest that there are many aliens among us. It's also possible that a premium was put on survival of the race, hence the intensely motivated sexual/romantic activity. And one imagines the emphasis would have been on the aliens mating with each other. I think the reason Max and Liz have such rapport (both in terms of being 'soul mates' AND being hot for each other) is partly romantic (his childhood crush on her) but also the fact that in saving her life, they had a crucial interaction, perhaps one that has altered Liz in some way and made her more receptive to Max's wavelength (for lack of a better word). I also thought it was interesting that neither Maria nor Alex received visions when they kissed their respective aliens, confirming for me that in saving Liz's life, Max bonded with her in a way that was never intended, and that may have 'changed' her. Nasedo now knows this, which could be dangerous if the goal is perpetuation of the alien race on earth. Does any of what I just said make sense? Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 06:39 AM Just to address something tvfox says above: It's certainly possible that Max, Michael and Isabel are the last of their race. Maybe the products of an isolated experiment (like the Superman story where one baby was sent away from a dying planet to be saved). But it seems more likely that many pods (embryos, whatever) were sent out. Assuming many would be lost or destroyed, they would want to ensure at least some would survive, and this suggests a massive launch of nascent aliens. After all, the original Roswell crash was in '47. Even if the births were timed, there must have been many 'birthed' between '47 and the '80s when our heros supposedly came to be. And UFO sightings are many and have been going on for years. So I think we are to assume there are MANY aliens of different ages (no older appearing than their 50s?) among us. An perhaps the titanium football Max and Liz found is some kind of timer. Either for mating or birthing new pods? LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-03-2000 06:55 AM Elliot: If what you speculate is accurate about the colonization theme--Max's off-handed quip to Liz in the kitchen (something about being sent by his people to take over earth) becomes the epitome of ironic reversal--jest/truth!!! LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-03-2000 07:31 AM Another comment on Elliot's ideas: The idea of more pods opens up the possibility of a number of new story arcs for the hoped for second season. Moreover, it also explains why--in the Roswell High books--we keep meeting characters beyond the three aliens with whom we are acquainted! Hope the writers explore that idea! A comment on the fear of Sci-Fi "revamping" that is being discussed on another thread: Roswell's romantic storyline is firmly embedded in its Sci-Fi framework. it is not a choice of either/or--you really can't have one without the other. Moreover, Sci-Fi is more than entertainment--it is also social comment. The figure of the "alien" often stands for the "other"--the socially marginal. Frequently, such literature addresses human alienation by giving readers the psychological distance another planet/starship provides. In the case of Roswell--we are invited to examine teenage feelings of marginality by looking at three alien teens. Don't be afraid of this interpretive device--enjoy it! Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 07:36 AM LSS: I noticed Max's comment going into the kitchen right away. It's the first throwaway suggestion of what is revealed later in the classroom, and It's obviously deliberate for those who noticed. By the way, I think the teacher's comments (which you remarked on in your first post) could have been meant ironically rather than as a warning. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-03-2000 08:24 AM Elliot: I like the idea of it being "irony"! Not as ominous as a "warning" -- though of course, considering the multivalence of scripts, it could be both! LSS SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-03-2000 10:28 AM Great topic. I'm really glad LSS started it. I apologise for the long post, but I've been thinking about some of these things for a while. I was surprised they mentioned the Whirlwind Galaxy. Intergalactic travel poses so many problems, but for the Roswell story line it doesn't really need to be explained. I agree with tvfox and Elliot that we're supposed to believe that they had to flee their planet because their sun was dying. Or, if we parallel it to earth, was engulfing their planet. When our sun becomes a red giant (approx. 10 million years, if I remember correctly) the outer corona will extend all the way to Mars. If the target planet was earth, there could be a lot more aliens out there, however, rather than a targeted exodus, it makes more sense that there were many seedling colonies sent out to all potentially habitable planets. That would go a long way to explaining the whole pod thing. It would take a lot less volume and resources to ship out millions of frozen embryos. Each embryonic colony could be accompanied by a minimal adult crew, who, on arrival at the new planet, could grow the embryos in incubation pods. If the pods take up a lot of space, it would also make sense that they be reuseable. Here's my speculation as to what happened. Earth was a targeted habitable planet, but there were problems on the landing. The presence of an intelligent dominant species came as a surprise. That trip from another galaxy had to have taken a looooooong time. Nasedo is the only adult survivor of the landing. He manages to get 3 pods, and who knows how many embryos, and hightails it into the desert. By manipulating the molecular structure of the embryos, he ensures that they look like us. If the pods are reuseable, then I agree with Elliot, there could potentially be aliens out there both older and younger than our three. I initially thought that the artifact they found in the desert was a test from Nasedo to see if the young aliens powers were developed enough that they could pick up a message. The orb was buried when the tower was in tact, I'm assuming '47 or shortly there after. Has it been beeping for 50 years, sending it's message to the stars? Or, did Nasedo activate it after he got the signal from I&M (Blind Date), 'cause Liz saw things when Max kissed her in that episode. Something about the healing or the telepathic connections M&L have shared made them receptive to the message. Did they get any more flashes of information after they got the orb out of the ground, and before it stopped glowing? I think we're supposed to think no they didn't. Nasedo sure had a little smile on his face the next morning. He looked pretty satisfied, they'ed found the beacon by having a relationship with each other. So integrating his aliens into human culture when they're little works. Which brings us to LSS's question 3. If the only way to get the message was via physical contact with a human you'ed made some kind of connection with in the past, and he or she had to tell you (the alien) about it, then the whole human alien relationship is vital to the story line (or was it just the ratings?). We know it makes a great love story, but what's the SF angle. Do they need the humans to revitalize their species. Are human DNA, and alien heritable medium compatible (since this is fiction, potentially). Most of my ideas along the procreation line are way too creepy for the Roswell story line. Could Max and Liz ever make love? Since he looks like a human, I'd say the mechanics are no problem, but Liz should probably get hime to wear a condom (there's no saying what alien sperm cells are like), but then again you can solve multiple problems with the whole "change the molecular structure" story device. Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 10:53 AM SF: Interesting theory that the bleeping device (or the 'beacon' from a few episodes ago) are somehow a test (kind of like in "This Island, Earth," which was also about aliens looking for a way off their dying planet). But I take it you also surmise that Nasedo's plan depends on human/alien interaction, and that he is happy that Max and Liz got together. Speculation on the spoilers board goes the other way, however. The prevailing theory there is that alien/alien interbreeding was the desired goal. With that (highly speculative) thesis in mind, the Max/Liz and Michael/Maria romances are a hindrance to the original alien mission, and something that Nasedo may not be happy about. Personally, I find this latter theory more interesting (and more conducive to future conflict), and I used it as a jumping off point to speculate about future story ideas on the Story Idea thread, where I decided Max should be a Paul Atriedes/King David/Moses figure. A king in disguise (including from himself) among his people. [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-03-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-03-2000 11:54 AM SF & Elliot: You make some great points--but since I am between classes I'll have to wait till this afternoon to comment. SF: One thing though--you mentioned alien sperm and condoms--remember what happened when alien/human blood meets human flesh in X-files (the mind boggles at sperm/rubber)? Then again--this may be more than I want to envision on our "Roswell"! Arctic Lurker Member Posts: 137 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-03-2000 02:24 PM LSS: Thanks for bringing up these questions. The same ones leapt to my mind as I watched this episode. It does seem fairly probable that the reference to the red sun, and the teacher's clarification of what that means, are intended to show that Max's planet may have been doomed, and that the aliens do not have the option of going home. I really hope that Liz and Max make that connection now that their hormones are back in simple overdrive instead of damn the torpedoes mode. I tend to think it will occur to them, especially now that we know the show is going to delve more deeply into the Sci Fi element. I'm actually pretty happy about this occurrence. I simply love the romance but now that I've been reassured that Max and Liz do belong together (on so many levels) I'm ready to see the major make out sessions take second place, for a little while at least, to the rest of the story. On the sexual relations front, I simply have to believe it is possible. Can they have sex? I would say defiantly...but not this year, please. Can they procreate? As SF has reminded us, there is that whole changing molecular structure thing to keep in mind. I have been wondering about Nasedo's ability to shape shift. Do you think it is an ability the other aliens will grow into later in life or is it a Nasedo speciality and one of the reasons he was chosen to accompany the pods to Earth, if we accept SF's logical theory that a small crew of adults accompanied the embryos. Oh, and at this point can I just interject how much I dislike hearing the term "hatched" used to describe the emergence of the children from their pods. Could the found object be some type of alarm clock, that was set to beckon around the same time that the kids would be reaching an age where they are to learn more about themselves? I think it may also be some sort of key that will unlock more clues, in a way similar to the glowing rocks in the cave. stargirl Member Posts: 87 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-03-2000 03:01 PM Wow, I love everyone's thoughts on this thread! Very articulate and thought-provoking. I've been surprised that so few people on other threads have commented on the Red Giant that Liz saw, and I agree that it is a major clue/plot development. Very likely will mean that M, M & I have no "home" to return to, which is somewhat reassuring to those of us that want them to stay here with their loved ones! But did Liz even tell Max about it? She shows him the Whirlwind Galaxy, but I don't remember her mentioning the red star she saw. On the glowing hickeys and other possible physical problems resulting from alien/human love, I like to think that those and Liz's fever and their inability to keep their lips off each other were all part of the finding of the orb, and that now that it's been found and they can go back to normal teenage passion they won't have any more of those kinds of problems! Bookish Member Posts: 170 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 04:39 PM 1-2. The books portray the aliens as seeking a hospitable planet, and crashing because of a criminal element within their ranks. Granted, the series doesn't necessarily remain faithful to the books, but it is possible that Nasedo is the bad guy. 3. I remember a story in Greek mythology where some nubile maiden begs Zeus to show her what he really looks like. He does and poof she disappears into vapor, blasted away by the magnitude of him. I don't know if Liz's odd symptoms were indicative of what alien/human sexual reproduction entails...or some kind of symptoms from the beacon. I'm guessing symptoms since Maria's neck didn't glow in Heat Wave. The show doesn't seem to answer this question definitively: Liz was burning up when her Mother confronted her, did this continue later that night with Max? Was she harmed? Could she be? Is alien conception physical or is it something that occurs when the mental connection is made? If so could their shenanigans have left her pregnant? The mind boggles... 4. The artifact....I dunno. But if the writers don't come up with some sort of compelling reason why sex was involved with it, we're all going to be giggling, I suspect. Elliot pointed out that Max and Liz may be drawn to each other because of his initial crush compounded by his healing of her. I think that's an interesting theory for the writers to develop. Has Liz been changed in any way? Or is there something inherent in her that has drawn Max to her from day one, and the healing merely a manifestation of that quality? LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-03-2000 05:35 PM So many great ideas... SF: Concerning the visions and the orb. Thus far Roswell's plotline includes three really different kinds of visions: 1) object induced visions (Michael/key/Morning After) 2) personal flashbacks (Max/Liz/pilot; Max?/Liz/BD; Max/SH, and Michael/SH), and 3) trip or orb specific visions (Liz/SH) (NOTE: I'm not sure about the stars Liz sees in BD). I wonder if the first two are what simply happens during an intense "connection" to human or a significant object, while the last is orb induced? The three types of visions seem to have different functions. But only Liz has visions that are trip or orb related. Elliot: Concerning Nesedo Like you, I'm not convinced that Nesedo is "good" but, like Max, I am prejudiced by Hubble's photos (and a very dead Hank in a body bag). Though I examined the frame minutely, the actor playing the part really didn't give much away in that desert scene--it's hard to impute anything negative from Nesedo's response to Liz and Max in SH. Guess we'll just have to wait and see. Arctic Lurker: In the books, shapeshifting is a "learned" skill. Will Nesedo evidentially teach it to our three aliens? Another question--do our aliens all really have the same powers? Isabell excells in certain acts (candle lighting, lipstick changing, finger CD playing, etc.) while Max practices telekinesis and healing. Poor Michael's power is iffy at best (he can heal River Dog's ankle but not his own black eye). Is this simply how they choose to use their powers (or in Michael's case, due to his lack of emotional focus) or are their powers somewhat person specific? If the latter then maybe only Nesdeo can shapeshift. Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-03-2000 07:07 PM LSS, thanks for starting this great thread! I've really enjoyed reading everyone's theories. I particularly like Elliott's idea of Max and Liz's initial bonding somehow changing her and 'activating' their ability to connect. Here's a question...or two- If they were fleeing from a dying solar system, wouldn't they have to leave before their star reached its red giant stage? Also, Liz asks her science teacher if there are any red giants in the whirlwind galaxy. He says there could be, but we wouldn't necessarily be able to detect them. Help me out here. If the aliens fled their system just as their sun was dying, and the velocity of their ship exceeded the speed of light (otherwise they would have been travelling for how many millions of years?), wouldn't they reach earth long before the light of a red giant could possibly reach earth? Even if we could detect their red giant from earth, that star should still appear to us as a young star, right? As far as that alien artifact goes, I don't think it is a beacon. If it were, wouldn't Nasedo have dug it up and activated it a long time ago? Or maybe he wasn't the one who buried it and needed Liz and Max to find it for him. So, in a way, Max and Liz both got used. Clearly their passion-enhanced visions were for the specific purpose of finding the device. If the 'football' is important to contacting other aliens, I think that Nasedo would try to get it away from them. Maybe it has nothing to broadcasting a signal, and is instead some sort of birthright--a device for self-discovery or development of powers. I got the feeling that Nasedo was pleased with their discovery, even though he had a pretty flat affect in that scene. I suppose the real question is did Nasedo use them for his own purposes or is he benevolently following their progress? ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-03-2000 07:19 PM Greetings. I am a new Roswell fan. Love the show and characters. I think I have found the thread I have been looking for! May I join in? I love speculation, mythology, symbolism. This is my first post here at this wonderful site. I The webhosts and moderators have done a great job. Although I tried many times previously (busy schedule, forgot, classes, didn't set the VCR right, etc), I started watching Roswell at the pilot repeat. I still have not seen all episodes but I have read scripts. I also thought the reference to the red giant might suggest a doomed planet and a plan by a civilization to save as many as possible. There may be different types of sentient life-forms that make up the planet's "demographics" and socio-political structures. I will, with reservations, include the possibility of non-corporeal life forms. Decisions would be made about who to send, where, etc. Or almost everybody, if the civilization's technology supported this, was able to leave (one group or several groups) and take their chances. As others have said, they may have specific destination(s), merely possibilities for a destination(s), or they took their chances and one group got lucky. Another galaxy of origin poses time issues. Nasedo may be of an "immortal" species, otherwise no adult watching over the embryos when they left a galaxy is likely to be still alive. One possibility is that at least this was a generation ship. I agree as one. Someone mentioned that the ship that crashed in 1947 may have been taking off instead of trying to land. That is an important observation In my thinking, given the distances involved, it is likely that the "aliens" have been here for some time and may have been trying to take off. And among their numbers, the embryos of human-alien breeding or experiments. Shape-shifting aside, our teens emerged with a mostly human external phenotype. They must have had the ability warp time and space. The probability is that our teens, and any other descendants/denizens of their home planet who are "hiding in plain sight" on Earth, have no home to go h ome to and, if they did, they would be just as "alien" . Those who arrived could be those that came to be referred to as "The Ancient Ones" (Hopi reference to the Anasazi) or "The Ancient Enemies" (the Dineh, or Navajo, reference). This series is heavy on native American culture, spiritualism, imagery, symbols. The palm symbol is seen in Anasazi (among other civilizations) wall and cave painting in 4 Corners regions and other places in the South West. The spiral (or labyrinth) symbol Michael was standing on is ubiguitous, seen in cave and wall paintings. It is very common in , but not limited to, Anasazi petroglyphs. It is associated with "The Emergence", The Mother, Water, the First Holy People (Navajo myth) who entered this world and created their peoples. It is also seen in many ancient civilizations. There is an animal with a spiral tail on one of the Nasca plains. The spiral also refers to migration and Whirlwind. I have several pictures on myhard drive but I am not computer savvy so I will try ti figure out how to post them or at least direct you to a website. The spiral and palm and another half moon symbol represents a supernova. I'll try to post it later. The palm was a very holy/spiritual symbol among Anasazi and some other early Native American cultures. The single spiral = whirlpool represents the spirit Ho-Bo-Bo, a mythical "stranger" who came among the people with a great whirlwind and..well..wreaked havoc on the earth's vegetation and waterways. One of the symbols seen on the sheet of paper we see in one of the episodes MAY be Hopi for spider (?Hopi Spider Clan). There is a spider on the Nasca plains. This brings me to the references to Mach Picchu (Peru) mentioned in one of the eps. This may be a gathering point/departure point or spiritual place. I think the Nasca lines are important. Guides for "ancient astronauts" to see from space and rescue those lost/waiting on earth? I mentioned one of the monkey tails forms a great spiral and there is the Nasca spider. I am looking forward to seeing how this all plays out. The beacon can be a means to contact/communicate with others on distant world or a means to travel through space (space and time warp) or to open a portal. Michael is very important to the equation. Even at the time of emergence (with a little "e") he was different. May be I am misreading this but from the narrative it seems as if he could not "recognize" those of his kind (assuming they are of the same kind) enough to trust them. He did not share a certain "vibe" with them. I'll post more later. This is too long now. My last point for now, related to the possibility of a sexual union between M&L, M&M, or other possible combinations, is important for reasons alluded to by others here. There is a hidden/secret/?sacred bloodline (possibly being protected by Nasedo or others we have not met) - ? that has to be guarded. whisperpoe Member Posts: 1149 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-03-2000 07:37 PM OHHHHH, very good point laneba!!! quote: Also, Liz asks her science teacher if there are any red giants in the whirlwind galaxy. He says there could be, but we wouldn't necessarily be able to detect them. Help me out here. If the aliens fled their system just as their sun was dying, and the velocity of their ship exceeded the speed of light (otherwise they would have been travelling for how many millions of years?), wouldn't they reach earth long before the light of a red giant could possibly reach earth? Even if we could detect their red giant from earth, that star should still appear to us as a young star, right? This is an awesome observation, and you are right, unless of course she is seeing the star now, as sort of a collective consciousness thing or omnipotent vision, rather than as a memory as they assumed. These images could not possibly come from Max at his suggested age, how would he have seen these things if he was either in an embryonic state or in stasis in a pod? That would lend suggestion to the idea that he is not just from the 47 crash, but from who knows how many thousands of years before that he spent in stasis. hmmmmmmmm interesting, very interesting. FBI Member Posts: 38 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 07:43 PM Okay, ready for some quick astrophysics? First, if their system was anything like our solar system, then yes, they would have to depart the planet before the star reached the red giant stage. When our sun nears the end of its life it will expand to a red giant and take with it the current habitable zone (read that as to as far out as Mars). Second, if the alien craft traveled faster than light, then yes, we on Earth would see it as a younger star. But perhaps their star is a red giant (there are arguments that this won't work for life as we know it but this is science fiction). Red Giants are big (for lack of a better word) and I am pretty confident we could see them (It really depends on how far away the star actually is, withou knowing that, you really can't definitely say whether or not we could see it with any telescope available). SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-03-2000 08:34 PM Elliot: I hadn't thought of Max being a messianic type character, but I can see the potential for that. It would mean there have to be a lot of aliens here already. I need to check out the story idea thread. Artic Lurker: I liked the idea that the beacon could have been preset to go off when the aliens were ready to learn more about themselves. Nacedo's presence does make you wonder though. I also think that it will them to more clues. Lenaba: I do think they would have to leave before it became a red giant. The flash looks like an image viewed from the edge of a solar system, i.e., they looked back as they were leaving. Maybe they could only make their space time shift beyond the gravitational constraints of their solar system, so it took a while to get to the edge of it. And yep, they would have to travel faster than the speed of light, so their star would still look like an orange dwarf to us. ROStaFEHRian: My take on the adults accompanying the embryos is that they would be in stasus for the majority of the trip. Automatically reawakened just before the arrival at the new planet. Jen01 Member Posts: 45 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-03-2000 09:44 PM All of these ideas are good... but to think that if their home was coming to an end, wouldn't that be so scary? I mean, it be sad. To be the last of your race (specie), that would really be awful don't ya think? Can you imagine your self in their position? Adrian Member Posts: 305 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 09:55 PM What a great thread! About Nasedo or anything else being behind the visions when Max and Liz kissed... I remember Max saying that maybe Liz was seeing things "stored" inside Max somewhere and vice versa. So I don't think anyone or anything has control over the visions; I agree with Max's theory. Sqgly Member Posts: 301 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-03-2000 10:18 PM I know you all though tof this!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe the titanium football is the alien version of Viagra?? SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-04-2000 08:29 AM quote: Originally posted by LSS: SF: Concerning the visions and the orb. Thus far Roswell's plotline includes three really different kinds of visions: 1) object induced visions (Michael/key/Morning After) 2) personal flashbacks (Max/Liz/pilot; Max?/Liz/BD; Max/SH, and Michael/SH), and 3) trip or orb specific visions (Liz/SH) (NOTE: I'm not sure about the stars Liz sees in BD). I wonder if the first two are what simply happens during an intense "connection" to human or a significant object, while the last is orb induced? The three types of visions seem to have different functions. But only Liz has visions that are trip or orb related. LSS I checked my tapes, and I'd say Liz's flashes in BD are the same as the ones she had in SH. The only other time Liz ever saw anything was in the pilot when Max made the connection go the other way after he'd seen some flashes from her past after the healing. She even tells Maria at the start of ID that she saw stuff during the kiss, but never gets a chance to tell Max (Is interrupts them). So whatever was happening, did start at the end of BD, and intensified in SH. Since Max doesn't mention the flashes in BD, he's either forgotten, or only Liz got them. I still think it's too coincidental that the flashes start the same night Nasedo gets the signal from Michael and Isabel. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-04-2000 09:42 AM SF: If what you say is true then the third type of vision (trip & orb related) may be linked to both Nesedo and the orb. This raises the issue (noted by others on this thread) of the relationship between the orb and Nesedo. It seems to me that there are at least THREE clear options: 1. NESEDO IS USING THE ORB. That is, the orb is somehow a part of Nesedo's plan and he has some control over it (turning it on, etc.). As to the nature of the plan, we can only guess as to whether it is benevolent (or not) to humankind. As for the aliens, the orb could function as a teaching device, biological trigger, etc. to serve Nesedo's larger plans for our alien friends. 2. NESEDO HAS NO CONTROL OF THE ORB--IT IS KEYED TO MAX. This is where Elliot's idea of Max's "special" nature might come in. If the orb is keyed to Max, then it implies something special concerning Max's "real" identity. Remember how Max confessed that he didn't even know who he really was in SH? I thought that a bit odd at the time (before this he emphasizes that he doesn't know where he's FROM not WHO HE REALLY IS). If this is the case, maybe Nesedo wants the orb AND Max--gulp!!! 3. THE ORB REPRESENTS A THREAT TO NESEDO--HE WANTS IT FOUND AND ELIMINATED. I think that this is the least likely, but still a logical option. Even if Nesedo needed Max to find the orb, Nesedo had a chance to retrieve it in the desert while they were sleeping (Ok--it was pretty close to Max's head but remember--telekenesis). It would be nice to know if the orb was still in the backpack when Max lef the Cafe. Someone mentioned before how the director made sure we saw the location of the orb before they went inside. What was the function of that frame? An adjacent question--why was the orb buried at that location--by a radio tower? Now I'm the last one to second guess the minds of the military, but what possible purpose whould burying what is obviously an alien artifact beneath about a foot of sand serve? Any ideas? Bookish Member Posts: 170 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-04-2000 10:53 AM FBI: I haven't had astrophysics in nine years...thanks for the crash course! Elliott: As usual, I love reading your posts. The idea of Max as a messianic figure is quite compelling. What if Nasedo styles himself as a kingmaker/merlin type and the whole Liz romance has thrown a wrench into the plan he believes Max is meant to follow? In some ways this series reminds me of "Lord of the Flies" in which you have these three aliens, stranded, who have created their own rules to ensure survival and order. And these rules could only work for a limited time (If they hide from sight and never form attachments to anyone, the older they grow, the more they would stand out). Max "changes" the rules and all heck breaks loose. It seems though that although Nasedo wasn't a tangible part of their life, he would have agreed with the old rules system. Leneba: Your observation about both of them getting used in the "quest" is astute. I think I was so focused on Liz that it didn't occur to me that BOTH were being used by another. I do wonder, if Nasedo is the one who caused this...or if he was merely observing? I mean, that's an awful lot of trouble to put these folks through to find the beacon, particularly if he is protective of them. The public displays of affection only serve to draw more attention to Max, potentially complicating his life. If Nasedo, however, wasn't the one who buried the orb, knew about it, and needed to find it, this could account for his presence. LSS: I agree with you, that the jury is still out on Nasedo. The idea of him killing a pregnant woman gives me the willies. The mental image of Hank-the-slimeball moaning like an animal while Nasedo works him over ranks a close second. If Hank had been abusing Michael all these years, why did Nasedo move then? Why not earlier? So far we know a)people end up dead around him, and b) he appears to be watching the alien troika, and c)his nonverbal behavior at times indicates danger (burning pictures), and benevolence (smiling as he watches Max and Liz sleep, the tone of voice he uses when admonishing them to get home). The writers are doing a good job keeping me guessing. ROStaFEHRian: (love the name). My knowledge of native american symbolism could fit on the head of a pin. Thanks so much for the explanation. Welcome to the board, too! This may be an issue for another thread... but I saw another website for Buffy that had the summaries of episodes and at the end of each summary, they had a section in which they explained symbolism which appeared in the episode (many of the above posts contain ideal examples: linking types of visions, Native American symbolism, astrophysics, messianic references,etc.), and made links to past episodes for people who had just clued in. They also managed to do it without turning the file into a dissertation. galaxy Member Posts: 27 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-04-2000 12:29 PM Wow! This is a very interesting thread. No input for now. If some of the above theories are right that makes the show very appealing, and not just the romance story. Great Thread. ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-04-2000 02:29 PM All I can say is WOW, guys. And they think TV fans are dumb. Shame on them Anyway, I would just like to ad to this extremely illuminating thread: 1) I too think the writers basically "gave away the farm" in why Max, Michael, and Isabel's spieces came to Earth: Their sun was dieing and so they fled to the stars in the hopes of recolonizing other planets. I love the idea that many of you had that they sent out parties to find habitable planets and that something went wrong in either a take off or landing that resulted in the '47 crash. That means that Roswell -- As a show -- Is only the tip of the ice berg in terms of themes and implications for the human race and that there are tons of things the writers could do to explore them in the coming seasons. And this of course leads us to a lot of mysteries that many of you have already brought up: Are there more aliens here? How long have they been coming to Earth considering the ancient referrences in Native American and other cultures? Did they mean to land on Earth or where they either lucky or unlucky as the case maybe? One thing I saw that was partly alluded to, but not dwelled on is that if Max's kind have been coming to Earth since time began, then THEY are OUR forefathers (if you buy the Missing link/Aliens altered our DNA theory). What if the aliens who first came here NEEDED us humans to evolve into humanoid life forms (two arms, two legs, head, oposable thumbs) so that we closely ressembled THEM? And of course, ultimately what is/was the "master plan" for this planet and our race in regards to our new "residents?" This leads me to... 2) Nasedo I for one am part of a group of fans who believe that the one we saw at the end of ID and the one at the end of BD are in fact TWO different aliens. The one in the trenchcoat at the end of BD is Nasedo -- Who may or may not be evil -- And the one in ID and SH, the Mexican Cowboy, is ANOTHER alien (Alien#5) who may be looking out for our gang. What leads me to this conclusion is, as someone already mentioned, if Nasedo were the only adult alien, why would he have waited so long to take Hank out of the picture? Or even kill Hank at all? Killing Hank -- Unlike the supposed murders reported by Hubble -- Would serve NO purpose. However, if Alien#5 killed Hank, it would make more sense because he wanted to protect Michael and the rest of the aliens. Of course, why Alien#5 also waited so long is yet another question. Maybe he wanted to see if Michael would learn how to use his powers and help himself? Or maybe Alien#5 hoped it wouldn't come to killing because of course a murder draws attention to them. Anyway, the theory that there are TWO adult aliens falls in line with some of what others have said about other Aliens coming to Earth for colinization, and I think that would be a great storyline for the writers to explore because it would be unexpected... Esepecially if they did it well and revealed some of the people who you thought were not aliens were, and that is why they had to keep it all under wraps for the sheer magnitude of the colonization. 3) The football/orb... I think it is a beacon as well that has been broadcasting for over 50 years to any surviving aliens who fled the dieing home world -- If you buy the colonization theory that is. We never actually see WHO buried it. It is shot in POV - Point of View -- But we do know they were male (from the heavy breathing). Perhaps it was Atherton? Maybe it was Nasedo, or Alien#5 -- As a male; they can shapeshift ya know. Who knows? I hope they clear this up as well either next season or at the end of this one, and don't just leave us hanging. 4) Max as the Messiah... Well, that would fit into most sci-fi epics. Max could be, as some of you have stated, a prince or king destined to save this world and or other aliens. That would mean that Nasedo or Alien#5 serves the John The Baptist role like Qui Gon Jin did in Star Wars: Episode I as he prepares young Anakin to undertake his destiny. Personally, there is nothing wrong with this storyline, howerver, I personally would like to see something a little less SW and Dune. But hey, if they execute it originally, then why not? Well, that about wraps up my long ramble. I look forward to hearing others thoughts because this is how the message board used to be and am glad it is coming back! Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-04-2000 04:57 PM This is a great thread. You guys ROCK! ROStaFERHian, your observations regarding the similarities between the spiral symbol and Native American images reminded me of something that has been bouncing around in my head for awhile. Remember how Max, Is and Michael all somehow "knew" that whirlwind symbol? And how the cave images also seemed familiar? Didn't Isabel say it was like a language she knew but had forgotten? Initially, I took it to mean that they had all received some sort of endo-pod education (ala Superman), but had just forgotten, along with everything else. But now I wonder if their familiarity with these symbols runs deeper, like Jung's theories of archetypes and the collective unconscious. You know, the idea that there are pictoral equivalents of universal experiences. The books make reference to a "species memory". Perhaps the aliens are more consciously receptive to accessing their version of the collective unconscious because of their semi-telepathic ablilites. Maybe these universal experiences are truly that--literally universal. That would partially explain the ability/necessity of linking with humans as well as the prevelence of the whirlwind (and other) symbol(s) among Native American images. ETAmerican, your question about who buried the orb thingy made me wonder if the orb itself has some sort of primitive sentience. If so, it would make sense that the images that Liz saw--the stars, the red giant, the crash and burial-- were from the orb's point of view. rosfan Member Posts: 73 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-04-2000 05:16 PM Wow! I just wanted to say how impressed I am by everyone's intelligent posts. As for me, I have yet to see Sexual Healing so I can not answer but I am enjoying reading all of your ideas. Keep up the great work. Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-04-2000 05:20 PM Oops! I forgot to bring up one other issue kind of related to the whole collective unconscious/universal images thing. I think it is interesting how the aliens' telepathic abilities run along the lines of images and emotions instead of actual language. This would allow them to share this experience with anyone, regardless of language barriers (useful if you come from a different planet). Funny how Max was suprised that he felt Liz's emotions. We knew she felt his in the pilot. There is a stark contrast between the sophisticated method of communication (telepathy) and the primitive form it takes (images and emotion). Or maybe their version of telepathy is baby-talk from Nasedo's point of view. After all, they haven't had anyone to teach them how to do it. OlderFan Member Posts: 418 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-04-2000 05:28 PM Well, most of this thread is way over my head, but I do have a question about some of the posts on Nasedo. From what I remember, we don't see Nasedo, or anyone who appears to be Nasedo, until Blind Date (at the end, in the trenchcoat). Right? The sighting happens in Into the Woods, when the trio sees the sign from Nasedo. Then, in Blind Date, Michael and Isabel respond by sending him a signal. And then he goes to the library where they sent the signal from. So from those stories, I assumed that Nasedo either wasn't around (on earth) or didn't know how to find the trio, or just didn't have any idea who they were and was trying to get them to reveal themselves to him. So my question is, why do people ask: Why did Nasedo wait so long to kill Hank? From what I've seen, it doesn't look like Nasedo has known about them for very long, or at least has known where to find them. He only really knew who they were when Michael sent the signal from the library. Then again, at the end of Blind Date, I wondered how he got a photo of them. If he's known all along that they are the alien trio, why has he not tried to make contact before? Why did Michael need to send a signal from the library? I guess I'm confused. Am I missing something? Absolutely Addicted Member Posts: 495 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-04-2000 06:50 PM I have read this thread in awe and with interest! It's often difficult to find posts so articulate and thought-provoquing. The language and diction, with which all of you write, is incredible! In all honesty, like OlderFan, I feel that some aspects of this duscussion have gone totally over my head. I know nothing about Native American symbolism and even less about science, so I can't even begin to comment on the astrological aspects of this discourse. However, as I am interested by what has been said and asked, I, too, feel the need to address some things. I agree with the consensus about the aliens' origins: our Pod Squad may be the survivors of a dying planet. It is interesting to note, however, that while all of us have addressed that particuliar issue, none of the characters took notice of it during the episode. (Arguably, they had other things on their...um, minds! ) The reason for their landing as others have noted, however, is much less clear. Was it a crash landing or was Earth the ship's destination? Which ever way it is examined, I think that something went wrong with the ship. The 1947 landing/lift-off could never have meant to be so conspicuous! Okay, I'm going to stop with the sci-fi stuff as I know nothing about it. I can comment, however, with increasing interest--and maybe some giggles!--on the relationship area... Some have surmised that the orb somehow made Liz--and Max--horny (for lack of a better word). That, before the orb turned itself on (provided it was off all these years), Liz and Max were just two (relatively) normal teenagers experiencing the usual hormonal rages/impulses/desires, and that upon its awakening, the orb pushed Liz and Max into a sexual frenzy. I disagree. I think Liz and Max awakened the orb somehow. Before Max saved Liz the day of the shooting in the Crashdown, Max was resigned to live a life of unrequited love. While Liz may or may not have "seen" Max, he still loved her from afar. After Max saved her, on the other hand, things changed dramatically. Liz suddenly reciprocated all that he felt. (Incidently, I agree with Elliott, in that somehow Liz was changed as a result of Max's intervention). In recognizing her return of affection, Max no longer needed to love her from afar. She, too, would not let them be apart. Because he could be near her, because she loved him back, he began feeling...more. Consequently, I feel that Max's attraction to Liz somehow how awakened the once dormant orb. (As an aside: I thought it incredibly funny the way Liz kept enticing Max in the beginning of Sexual Healing by just walking by and talking to him. The poor boy didn't stand a chance!) This brings me to my next point. I definately agree that the orb has something to do with sex--be it procreation or whatever. I agree with whomever said that if the writers don't attach some sort of sexual reference to the orb, we will all be perturbed! I'm of the opinion that "interlocking" (love your choice of words, Camryn!) is possible for our heroes. While I don't want Max or Michael to become Roswell's Captain Kirk, I would be seriously disturbed to learn that Max could never "be with" Liz. That comment, however, is not based on any sort of sci-fi claim; it's just the desire of a hopeless romantic who adore Max and Liz "together"! Now that I've babbled like a brook for too long, I'm going to stop writing now, as I'm still hungry (I was supposed to eat a half-hour ago)! I'm sorry I rambled on; I do tend to be verbose! I look forward, however, to reading more insightful posts like these! P.S. I haven't commented on Nasedo because I'm slightly spoiler swayed! I guess, at best for me, the jury's still out! I am leading towards evil, however...! [This message has been edited by Absolutely Addicted (edited 03-04-2000).] Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-04-2000 07:42 PM This is incredibly, incredibly interesting. I'm so glad they are turning to a more sci-fi based end of the season. Anyway... about the red giant. Are we just assuming that this red giant was their sun and was ready to engulf their planet before they left? Maybe it was just a random star Liz saw in that particular solar system and the teacher gave a definition of it because... well, just because. Could that be all there is to it? Bookish - I love your Lord of the Flies comparison!! I have a feeling that Nasedo is not liking the Max/Liz relationship and he feels threatened by her or something like that. Absolutely Addicted - I was thinking the exact same thing you were... Liz and Max awakened the orb, not vice versa. I think they were both motivated by regular human desire and hormones to start all the making out, but then the orb got involved. I still don't have a solid opinion on Liz's fever or the glowing hickey, but they were probably brought on by the orb's power (or whatever) after they awakened it. I agree that Liz was "changed" when Max connected with her. I'm trying to come up with an explanation as to how she and Max could be soulmates if he began his life (in the pod) on another planet, and I can't, but I still believe that they are meant to be together. When he healed her, he awakened something inside her that made her realize it. This brings me to the conclusion that maybe the crash in 1947 did have survivors and they mated with humans (Not like abductions and experiments... I don't like to believe in aliens in that sense). I don't know. Or maybe they've been around since the beginning of time on Earth and have been helping humans evolve? This way Liz and Max would have some kind of solid connection. And I don't think that it will ever be impossible for Max and Liz to "be together," because I'm convinced there has always been something that would eventually draw them together. While Max is an alien, there is still the human part of him that makes up every part of his physical appearance and personality, except for the wonder about his home planet and the "collective consciousness"/stored memories from his race. Unless an alien breed fed the human evolution... then who knows? Think about applying this to our lives now. It's kind of scary and very interesting to think that there might be civilizations out there billions of years ahead of us... [This message has been edited by Kate6058 (edited 03-04-2000).] MyrnaLynne Member Posts: 1094 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-04-2000 08:21 PM Too tired to be articulate, but this thread blew me away! Yes, Absolutely - the orb turned on (or Nasedo turned it on?) - and then it turned Max and Liz on! They were bewitched - but willingly so! It was kind of like Max being drunk - it let them express what was already there. And you all know where my mind is most of the time, and I have to believe that Max and Liz can consumate their relationship at some point. Whether they can have kids is iffy (the green cheek cells make me say no way) - but I suppose Max could manipulate matter in some way to accomplish it - kind of like IVF? - but that would kindof be scientific and less romantic than just doing it and - tadaa! - a lil cute 1/2 alien kid arrives a while later! I do think the equipment it totally compatible however. (And totally gorgeous, but that's another thread...) I don't like the idea that their world is dead and they have no hope of returning. That hope is what has kept Michael going all these years through his wretched upbringing. And the questions - will they stay, would they go, etc - are kind of negated if they have noplace to go, no decisions ahead, etc. Nasedo is the big wild card - interesting theory that there is more than one. What is this guy's agenda? Why was he just watching Max and Liz sleep, why did he wake them up and send them home? He could've killed them or taken the orb. And yes, what about that trail of bodies all over the southwest, and torturing Hank? Do you think, to shapeshift, he has to kill the original owner of the body? And can only Nasedo shapeshift? As was pointed out, the 3 alien kids have various talents/powers at their command. Welcome RostaFehrian - loved the Indian mythology - they are in the right area, as Roswell is right next to the Mescalero ("Mesaliko") Apaches, and the Navajo, Pueblo, Hopi, etc are all in the neighborhood. I'm afraid you guys are all 10 times brighter than the people who are actually WRITING the show! G'nite. Love you guys! Big Roswell sci-fic speculative good-night hugs! Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-04-2000 09:09 PM About the orb, I agree that we didn't see who buried it, but I don't think it was the soldiers. (Wouldn't they more likely take it away for analysis?) It looked as if the soldiers were closing in; perhaps the orb was hastily buried to prevent them from finding it. About the adult aliens, perhaps (as suggested earlier) there are more than one. There may be conflict between them, and this may have something to do with the crash. And either side may want to find the orb, or prevent the other from finding it. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-04-2000 10:36 PM MyrnaLynne - Max's cells weren't actually green, remember. Liz stained them green before she looked under the microscope... that was probably done just to emphasize to the audience that the cells were radically different and enforce the "creepy green alien" theory. I wanted to add a few thoughts to my earlier post. I don't like the idea that Max, Michael, Isabel, and whoever else was on the ship with them were sent here as "experiments" to try to colonize and Nasedo is now watching over them to see how they do. That takes away so much of the emotional part of the show and really roughs up the edges. Think about it... if the orb was somehow directing Max to have all these human emotions for Liz only for the purpose of procreation, then we found that out... the characters would suddenly take on the lives of robots. I'm sticking with the theory that they had to escape their planet because something went wrong (I don't necessarily think that it was the red giant thing) or they were just traveling in space like we go to the moon and other planets, only they could hop solar systems. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-04-2000 11:29 PM I'm just bumping this... it's such an incredible thread, I don't want it falling off the page. Bookish Member Posts: 170 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-04-2000 11:59 PM I believe the conch is now mine. I'm more than a little brain dead at the moment, so I'll apologize in advance if I'm incomprehensible. OlderFan, ETAmerican made the oooooooh worthy point that we don't know WHO the person was at the end of Blind Date burning the photo. We only saw the back of this individual, not his/her face. It could be a different person than the alien who killed Hank and woke up Max and Liz. And THAT would certainly make things interesting. I don't think the government, or soldiers buried the orb, as we hear lots of heavy breathing in the "point-of-view" scene, implying the person burying it is in a big hurry. Could it be the orb is the key to making the species compatible? Only love between the human/aliens could awaken it? I like the idea of images being universal. They've had nonverbal studies which found children in China, blind from birth, who cover their cheeks with both hands, opening the mouth in suprise, when someone does something unexpected. In the books, Max can feel emotion during the connections, and vice versa. This is how Liz first realizes that he loves her, when he lets her see into his mind (as in the Pilot), she realizes the depth of his love for her. In this week's episode, Max gets the opportunity to see into Liz's mind, and realize how strongly she feels for him. Perhaps that is also what happened at the end of blind date, as unBehrably cute pointed out, causing Max to sober up. I'm off to find Morpheus. Roswell The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions (Page 2) This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions whisperpoe Member Posts: 1149 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-05-2000 12:29 AM While reading through this thread again for about the fiftieth time a thought suddenly struck me so hard i almost fell out of my chair. If there were more adult survivors, then the person we think of as Nasedo may or may not be the Nasedo that Riverdog was speaking of. Also, if the orb was awakened by Max and Liz that tends to lead to some wondering on her lineage since she is the one that saw the visions. If perchance Liz was part alien, then wouldn't she have access to the knowledge of her forebears in a collective consciousness? That knowledge may be diluted by the mixing of the alien/human genetics. If Nasedo (the one we are assuming) had been the one to bury the orb, why didn't he just get it if it is so important, he is leaving too shady a trail to be good for them or to want them knowledgable of their origins. So, to wrap up all the what if's, what if Liz's dad is Nasedo, and he hid the orb for safe keeping, not realizing that liz could "wake-up" and connect with another alien to find it. Also, hiding it could have saved it from other undesirable's, which seems to be the character of the mysterious cowboy/hank impersonator. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-05-2000 12:53 PM You're right that this might not be the same Nasedo who River Dog originally referred to. That alien had a real name; River Dog only referred to him as "nasedo" because it meant visitor in his language, so there could have been many Nasedos... anyway, say that the Nasedo who shape-shifted into Hank and cast his shadow over Max and Liz was a survivor of the crash like M,M&I were, only his pod hatched several years earlier than theirs. If he was using Liz and Max to find the orb that was lost at crash time, that would mean he wasn't the one burying it like in Liz's vision (I agree that it was one of the aliens who did the burying, making the 4 of them not the only survivors of the crash). But if he is the same Nasedo that River Dog referred to, then he must have planted the orb on purpose for aliens to later find. Perhaps Nasedo knew there were three (or four...) aliens in the pods on the ship, but he had to flee to avoid being caught by the U.S. Army, so he hid the pods, buried the orb, and ran. That would mean Max and Liz's emotions were created by the orb to send out a signal to Nasedo, and he's been waiting this whole time for the orb to pick up the energy of one of the aliens so he would know who his own kind are. This, however, does not go along with the idea that Nasedo killed Hank to protect Michael and already had a picture of the three of them (if that was actually him burning the picture). Maybe this Nasedo is actually evil and enjoys using the orb to manipulate Max to having all these feelings for Liz. Maybe he gets sick pleasure out of building up humans' emotions then making them crash (Liz's, in this case). I know that is reaching, and I hate the idea that Max's feelings for Liz could have been created by the orb or some other object or force from his planet just to serve some purpose. Like Michael said to Isabel, maybe that's how they are supposed to find out where they come from, by connecting with humans. That hints at the fact that they were sent here as an experiment, and I don't like that idea, just because I'm a romantic and a dreamgirl and I want Max and Liz to actually have true love, and because that would mean they have been living their entire lives like puppets controlled by Nasedo, or possibly even the FBI of their planet. Who knows if this is just one big government project of the "whirlwind" galaxy? [This message has been edited by Kate6058 (edited 03-05-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-05-2000 02:57 PM Some remarks to previous posters: ETAmerican: Great observation about the identity of the person/alien responsible for burying the orb. I hadn't noticed that, but you're right! I do think now that it was a fleeng alien rather than the soldiers. Leneba: Concerning the images seen during the connections as "baby talk" -- if you are correct and if we have a "good" adult alien present (I refer to the various "more-than-one" adult alien theories that have emerged on this thread) then the sky is the limit for next season's Sci-fi contours as this adult "teaches" our trio new skills/powers. Olderfan: concerning why the question of Nesedo "waiting" makes sense if we only see this alien at the end of BD -- I think some folk are linking this figure to the to the 1959 photos (as well as those Hubble produced). If the figure at the end of BD is responsible for those deaths, then he would been around to intervene in Michael's life before this...hence the question--why did he wait? Absolutely Addicted: what a great idea that Max and Liz awakened the orb...the dreamgirl in me likes that. But the fact that Max has been anything but assertive (when he's sober, that is) and the fact that we hear the beeping before the kitchen scene makes me a bit more skeptical. Still--perhaps we can think--not of the orb creating the frenzy, but simply enhancing what was already there? Folk--you are awesome!!! ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-05-2000 03:05 PM I too have also thought about Liz being part alien. Now THAT would be a twist NOBODY would see coming After watching the SH again and paying close attention to the flashbacks... Here is another theory as to the time frame and who buried the orb. When the orb is being buried, it is during the day and by obviously someone who wants it to be hidden from the military. Now, couple this with the mythology of the real life crash: It happened on July 4, 1947, during a sever lightening storm. The following day is when when Major Jesse Marcel was called out to Mac Brazel's ranch to observe the debris from the crash. This leads me to believe that whomever was burying the orb was in fact an alien and did it the day after the crash, possibly the morning of the 5th and because if it is so far from the crash (42 miles it says at the beginning of the episode) this also leads me to believe that this alien buried the surviving pods -- Max, Michael and Isabel as well. This falls in line with the books -- Sort of -- Don't view this as a spoiler -- But would make a lot of sense. So, this brings us back to who buried the orb. Nasedo? The Nasedo we know in the trenchcoat? Another Nasedo? River Dog's Nasedo? Maybe it was a human who found the item and it communicated with them and "told" them to bury it -- Maybe it was River Dog himself? Also... When Liz is having flashes when she kisses Max (the first time I think) watch when the ship enters the atmosphere -- It is broad daylight which would NOT be consistent with the real life crash which leads me to believe something is up since the real one supposedly crashed at night. Maybe this was the day of July 3rd, which means the 4th was in fact a failed take-off attempt as others have hypothisized. (Of course, I could just be nitpicking; perhaps the footage they used was a day time re-entry of the shuttle or something). Drat! More questions. It's a mystery, wrapped in a puzzle, cloaked in an enigma [This message has been edited by ETAmerican (edited 03-05-2000).] OlderFan Member Posts: 418 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-05-2000 03:13 PM LSS: Yes, I understand that we are supposed to think that the person who left all those handprints in Hubble's photographs is the same Nasedo that wore the trenchcoat at the end of BD, killed Hank in ID, and saw Max and Liz in the desert in SH. But what I don't understand is why or how people think that Nasedo knew who the three alien kids were, or knew how to contact them prior to Michael sending the signal from the library in BD?? And if Nasedo has known all these years where the trio is, why was it necessary for him to send the signal to them that they find in Into the Woods? And why was it necessary for Michael to signal him back? Why didn't Nasedo just stop them on the street? I just don't understand why people think that Nasedo has been watching them for years, when the stories so far have led me to think that Nasedo only recently learned who they were and where they were. And he learned that from Michael's signal. (He killed Hank very soon after he got the signal, right?) If he's been watching them for the past ten years, then this signal stuff would make no sense. SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-05-2000 03:17 PM quote: Originally posted by Kate6058: Anyway... about the red giant. Are we just assuming that this red giant was their sun and was ready to engulf their planet before they left? Maybe it was just a random star Liz saw in that particular solar system and the teacher gave a definition of it because... well, just because. Could that be all there is to it? Good point. Yep, we're all making that assumption, and I'm starting to think Liz didn't see a red giant. If the spherical black body with an equatorial planar field of red gas was the image Liz is calling a red giant, then she's wrong. I'm not sure what that was supposed to represent, but the camera zoomed in towards the center of the black body. Maybe we're supposed to think it's a black hole (it's a very odd representation of one), which would give us a possible explanation of how they accomplished trans-galactic travel. Yeah, I know I'm nit-picking. The writers obviously wanted us to know that Liz saw a red giant, and there's no reason to think we got to see everything she got to see. However, of the 5 "space" images we were shown, 3 seemed easily identifiable: "warp speed" stars, a spiral galaxy, and zooming towards earth, zipping by the outer planets. The other two are what someone described as a debris field, and what I described above as not the red giant. For us the audience, they're both up for interpretation. Maybe we need to be a bit more suspect of Liz's interpretations. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-05-2000 03:30 PM Olderfan: Good point! If Max doesn't "recognize" the Nesedo as "alien" in that last scene--then how would Nesedo recognize our trio? And why would a photo be necessary if he had been watching them all along? [And who furnished the photo?] And what is the function of the sign in "in the woods" if not for "contact"? [A bit much if he already knew who and where they were, don't you think?] Of course,it gets a lot more complicated if we entertain the more-than-one adult alien theory! ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-05-2000 03:41 PM Hi! Thank YOU to those who gave a welcome. This is a great thread you started LSS. This is a drive-by posting, I'm afaid. I am so busy and I have a Molecular Toxicology midterm Wednesday. This should probably be a new thread. Leneba (great posts BTW) mentioned Endo-pod education! (LOL). Can I make that work for me? I'm desperate. This is so much fun, and there are so many things, in so many excellent posts, I want to respond to individually, but I have to do it another time. I have some thoughts I need to get out of my head so I can get back to work. I've carefully read everything posted up til midnight, so if I'm repeating stuff that came after (I'll download and read later tonight), please accept my apologies. I have to compose off-line because I only have a limited time on-line and it costs by the minute. Nasedo is the wild card, as MyrnaLynn said. It is hard to speculate since we are missing so much information at this point. Good observation by Whisperpoe that this Nasedo may not be the same one that was known to RiverDog years ago (I have only read the script for BD so I don't have any visual clues). Leneba- I am glad you brought up the topic of the collective unconscious (be afraid...!); I wasn't planning on going there until after my midterm. I think the Nasedo character was meant (ie, by the writers) to bring to mind/represent the Native American version of that most ancient product of the collective unconscious: the TRICKSTER. The trickster is a near universal figure found in, among other things, ancient (and not so ancient) myth and legends (ie, cycle legends), literature (ie, Old Testament), medieval courts (jesters), Greek myth (ie, Hermes), cycle legends. The Trickster figures prominently in Native American myth and legend. (Please look up on the net: the Hopi Indian trickster Kokopilli, and Winnebago myth to get a better idea than I can post here). There is a delightful Kokopilli site but I don't recall the url. The trickster is usually a shape-shifter, a wolf, both sub- and superhuman, the "shadow", a primitive cosmic being of divine and animal nature; a representative of suffering to achieve humanity, The trickster is associated with duality (neither good nor bad, savior-demon, meddler-observer, order-disorder, ie, social chaos). Jung believes that the trickster represents a remnant of the preconscious state. Interestingly, the trickster is associated with...sex . No wonder we have trouble understanding Nasedo. He facilitates and hinders. Savage and humane. I think you are correct , Laneba, to consider the symbols in context of the collective unconscious and I like how you analyzed emotion and image vs. sophisticated communication. If anyone is game, at some onther time we can go into the "universe" of the limbic system, particularly since that might be relevant to "cosmic connectedness" or Iz's ability to "dream-walk". I don't know anymore than anyone else (I don't do spoilers) how this story is going to progress, but it will be linked (integral or in parallel) to Native American (and possibly other civilizations) symbolism, history and mysticism. The concept of 'the Balance' is integral to Navajo and other cultures (ie, Blessing Way, Sweat ceremonies). And LSS, I'm glad you mentioned it because I also thought of Mescalero ~ Mesaliko. I was limited to a script and had no idea whether it was a misspelling vs. made up tribal name. Bookish- also great posts- I just love how you expressed that our trio had made rules, limited in nature, for survival and order for which, over time, the very adherence to might expose them. They are, indeed, compelled to set out on a quest, internal and external. The dilemma, particularly for Max and Isabel is poignant because they really have no choice but to go on the Quest. When Max changed the rules, as you said, other powers come in. The balance is off. Roswell is another version of that great universal myth of the collective unconscious, the Grail legend. The universal quest for the "grail", however it is defined and envisioned, is of great importance to society/the order, but the ultimate purpose of the quest is the discovery of self, and love and faith. It is a very human quest and this series, which has resonated strongly with people of all ages as evidenced by this board, is about the very personal quest: about love, humanity (universal), restoration/balance, awakening, and faith. And the revelation of the previously hidden and fiercely protected "underground stream", the bloodline. This may be represented by the coming together of the protected blood line with the right and chosen one. Many people here have alluded to this and it falls together because our shared mythology/archetypes (ie, collective unconscious) of the grail quests. M&M, L&M, Iz? in particular are on this quest together. The external quest for the home (=the unconscious, the hidden; "water" and "mother" are often symbols/archetypes for the unconscious/collective unconscious, and home; in grail myths, the castle of wonder was underwater), for restoration of that which has been disordered (ie, some "mistake" or wrong decision was made that upset the balance (ie, endangered the land and people) . The grail quest is about uncovering the hidden, deciphering the meaning of the hidden signs, symbols and wonders presented to our teens (and others), and personal growth (from the journey). The "grail" may only reveal itself to the one meant to see it and, perhaps in different ways at different times. Note: water figures in BALANCE and, I thing 285. The spiral is also a water symbol. The internal quest, after the restoration of Balance and a initiation of a NEW order, is the most important: it is the quest for self discovery, love, and faith. And they must be together in spirit even though, of necessity, their paths will have to diverge and some decisions will have to be made alone. From non-spoiler comments (I can only guess) I've come across, it appears that there will be many side trips and emotional upheavels to overcome that may delay/endanger them and their quests.. All along the way, the (grail) questers must ask the right questions. If Max (or Michael, or Liz, or Iz) is the chosen one, then he must ask: whom do I serve? (on this quest). And this service is not selfish. Which means the outcome may mean great sacrifice. Whisperpoe- you (and others), make an interesting comment about the potential significance of Liz and Liz's lineage lineage. I loved you theory about Liz and being part alien. It appeals to me and I also have a sense there is more to her than we know. It is apparent that Liz the scientist will play a major role in helping Max and the others realize some part of their quest . But they must love unselfishly to succeed. This is ALL about love, baby. Michael does not succeed, exemplified by his poor control over his powers, because he is angry, selfish and self-centered in many ways. The boy can't help it in some respects, given his history, but he has to learn. He is impulsive and acts before thinking. Perhaps the growing trust and love between him and Maria will help him. I have not seen enough eps to remember, but perhaps his ability to see Maria in the past (SH) is related to the awakening of something that is not selfish. They have, I suspect, a long rocky road ahead of them. They must overcome the fears, too. Something is very different about Michael, as I said a couple of days ago, that predates his abusive treatment. He came out of the pod without faith and trust. Without a "vibe". This was evident even before they were separated. Perhaps some of this should be a new thread since I want to discuss the astronomy and astrophysics too (later), but I don't have time now. ROStaFEHRian woman [This message has been edited by ROStaFEHRian (edited 03-05-2000).] Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-05-2000 06:25 PM ROStaFERHian, Thanks for the mythology info and great analysis. My knowledge of the collective unconscious comes from my Art History background, mostly how it relates to Abstract Expressionism and Action Painting . It's an appealing concept and I appreciate how you flesh it out in the context of Roswell. Also, I agree with your take on Michael. He had trust issues before he was found. I am not as crazy about the Liz as alien theory as some of you. I think part of what makes her relationship with Max so extraordinary is her status as a human. Also, they keep pointing out what a budding scientist she is, and I keep waiting for her to be allowed to show her stuff. I hope that since the show will be highlighting the sci-fi aspect, she will be able to demonstrate her skill and aid our alien trio in a tangible way. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-05-2000 08:33 PM quote: Originally posted by LSS: Olderfan: Good point! If Max doesn't "recognize" the Nesedo as "alien" in that last scene--then how would Nesedo recognize our trio? And why would a photo be necessary if he had been watching them all along? [And who furnished the photo?] And what is the function of the sign in "in the woods" if not for "contact"? [A bit much if he already knew who and where they were, don't you think?] So, one solid theory could be that Nasedo was the one burying the orb (and the unhatched pods) in the desert so it could later be used as a homing device to find those who hatched from the pods. From Liz's vision, we can assume that he was in danger of being caught by the Army at the time he buried them. But... it would make no sense for him to have to use the orb to locate Max if he already made contact twice (Into the Woods and Blind Date), had a picture of the three of them, and killed Hank for Michael. Maybe he was just interested in knowing more about Max, so he let the orb guide him to that? I don't know... I'm still very, very confused about Nasedo's agenda. If he's been looking for them, why doesn't he reveal himself? As for all the talk about love... I think their home planet has a different idea of what love is, and that is going to complicate things. Check out the Roswell threads on the spoiler boards if you want more info on this... it's going to get really interesting. [This message has been edited by Kate6058 (edited 03-05-2000).] C-Unit Member Posts: 25 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-05-2000 10:54 PM First off, thanks to LSS for this great thread! It reminds me of the heyday of the X-Files postings where all the scientific/alien minutiae was analyzed to the fullest extent! I'm just going to post some rambling thoughts I had. Forgive me if I go astray First, my wacky theory about Nasedo is from Alex's questions to Isabel in The Balance, specifically the fact that the human body is so complex that for them to be on the same evolutionary path as ours is highly unlikely. My theory is that the man who has done the "killings" was actually acquiring DNA. We know from Liz' visions that all the action was taken POV, so we do not actually see the thing/person/whatever that crashed, escaped, was chased by the Army and buried the orb. What if this "person" (for lack of a better term) got DNA from different types of people and then manipulated the molecular structure of the pod babies so that human DNA would be the dominate genetic structure. This would explain why Max, Michael and Isabel look like humans, yet have their mystical powers. As for himself, this "man" could have killed the person that he looks like today (I'm not quite convinced it's the Nasedo that we saw at the end of ID and SH). I also do believe that there are more aliens out there, probably residing in or around Roswell, NM. I wonder where these "pods" are. If we subscribe to the theory that the "person" who escaped the crash and buried the orb also took the pods, then either they were really, really tiny or our buddy had help. This is all fairly unclear because Max, Isabel and Michael recall just emerging from these pods....but they were at different locations. Max also says that he and Isabel had a connection and found each other after some time (hours, minutes?) Michael was also there, but he hid...well, we all know the story. The pods would probably have to be scattered so that if the cache was found, not all of the survivors would be captured. As for the possibility of Liz being part alien....I'm not sure I can believe that, unless you subscribe to the "Small Potatoes" theory of morphing. For the savvy X-Files fan, you should be able to get my reference (Luke Skywalker's light saber....), but for the rest, the premise was that a shape-shifting man morphed into the visage of various men (mostly the husbands of the unsuspecting wives) to impregnate them and give birth to his babies. He also morphed into Luke Skywalker to bed and impregnate the woman he's always had a crush on (too bad she was in love with Luke). Therefore, one could make the argument that Nasedo morphed into Dad Parker, slept with his wife, got her pregnant and no one was the wiser. Combine that with all the blood tests, vaccines, etc that children are subjected to would have probably triggered something to someone that Liz was not a normal kid. My other way-out-there theory has to do with our preconceptions about the family structure of our triad. We've been told since day one that Max and Isabel are brother and sister. But is that a valid premise? Why can they not either be all related (so Michael is their brother) or they are all random aliens. Just because Max and Isabel found each other that night when they emerged from the pods and the Evans' adopted them, we've always assumed that they are siblings. Extrapolating out, then perhaps the Nasdeo person we saw at the end of SH thinks he's found two of his kind. Bear with me...I can't help but recall that goofy smirk he had on his face when he saw Max and Liz. Assuming he is not the same guy that burned the picture of the three at the end of BD, then perhaps our Nasedo person thought that Liz was really Isabel. It's the fifth guy, Mr. Trenchcoat, who know who are three really are. Whew. I think I'll try to get some sleep now. C-Unit Bookish Member Posts: 170 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-05-2000 11:07 PM I've been grading for hours and more than a little fried, so I'm going to take a stab at a few comments and post more when I'm coherent. ROStaFehrian, you're obviously one of those rare individuals who can ADD and for the record, I'm green with envy. I have to have a calculator in my hands at all time, although I've had five stats classes. I am more familiar with mythology in the sense of how collective fantasy themes (Romeo and Juliet, The quest for the grail--or is it El Dorado?) act to structure behavior. Kenneth Burke once wrote that humans are story-weaving animals. One aspect of this show that I find truly poignant is the "lacK" of a shared history other than a growing sense of "otherness" the troika possesses to construct their identity. They have images, without understanding, they have "texts" without trust, they have language without meaning. They are truly, for all intents and purposes, lost without a compass. While part of me would be intrigued to find that Liz has alien lineage, I still favor Elliott's observation that her essence may have in some way been altered by Max's healing of her. It could be that this particular combination activated the orb, perhaps altering some grand master plan that Nasedo had. In the books, not all the aliens were able to recognize one another simply by being in the immediate proximity. It could be that is why Nasedo (or whoever he/she is) needed the picture. So if this is indeed a quest, who would Max be? Galahad? or Sir Gawain? His characterization has certainly held an element of heroic virtue. Off to find Morpheus. OlderFan Member Posts: 418 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-05-2000 11:18 PM quote: Originally posted by C-Unit: My other way-out-there theory has to do with our preconceptions about the family structure of our triad. We've been told since day one that Max and Isabel are brother and sister. But is that a valid premise? Why can they not either be all related (so Michael is their brother) or they are all random aliens. Just because Max and Isabel found each other that night when they emerged from the pods and the Evans' adopted them, we've always assumed that they are siblings. C-Unit Maybe YOU'VE always assumed that Max and Isabel are siblings, and Michael is not related to them, but I don't think THEY'VE assumed that at all. In my many posts on the topic of Michael and Isabel getting together, I've pointed out that the three of them really don't know if any of them are related at all. But they have always assumed that they are one family and Isabel thinks of Michael as her brother as much as she does Max. The only difference is that Max lives in the same house she does. The only reason Max and Isabel are perceived as siblings by other people is because they were both adopted by the Evanses, while Michael was not. And that grew out of the fact that Max and Isabel found each other after coming out of their pods, but Michael wouldn't take their hand and wandered off alone. (And I thought it was a nice touch in ID when we saw Michael re-living that scene except taking their hands this time.) Isabel and Michael could be brother and sister, and maybe neither of them are related to Max. We just don't know. So Nasedo could have any relation to them, or no relation. (And yes, I know that this topic is covered in the spoilers, and some of us DO know something about their relationships. But from the point of the show through SH, we know nothing.) C-Unit Member Posts: 25 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-06-2000 08:02 AM Posted by OlderFan: Maybe YOU'VE always assumed that Max and Isabel are siblings, and Michael is not related to them, but I don't think THEY'VE assumed that at all. ****************************** I only bring this up because in the Pilot episode, when the trio were at the roadside taco stand, Isabel made a reference to Michael about "my brother" by which she meant Max. Did she say that for benefit of the audience...to establish that they are related so that the audience would say "Oh, I see, they are brother and sister." Or, did she say it because she really meant/believes it...that they are related. I don't recall Isabel (or Max) for that matter ever calling Michael their brother in the sibling-sense. And as for spoilers....although I am majorly tempted to peek, I have shown incredible will power and not. So, all my suppositions and theories are not based on advanced knowledge. C-Unit Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-06-2000 08:04 AM This thread took off wonderfully over the weekend. Lots of provocative thoughts here . . . ETAmerican has an interesting idea that Nasedo and the 4th alien may be two different entities. But I'm not sure I believe it. I also think that it's clear that though Nasedo knew that teenaged aliens existed, he didn't know exactly where or who they are. I believe that he has been spying on them and compiling information about them. For what other reason would he torture Michael's father? Simple sadism is a possibility, but it's more likely that he wanted as much information about Michael, and about the confrontation Michael had with Hank (with Max and Isabel in attendance) as he could get, perhaps to properly gauge the kids' levels of power. The idea that Shape Shifter must kill to assume an appearance and identity is an extremely good one. And I like the idea that the 'awakening' of the three aliens sexuality and perhaps their increased uses of their powers is what set the orb off. I DON'T like the idea that the orb is somehow controlling the kids. Hey, I'm American, I like the idea of free will. And I'm enough of a romantic to like the idea that Max and Liz are actually madly in love with each other. As to Liz being an alien or part alien, I don't buy it. I stick to my idea that Max's love for her led him to save her life and therefore change her metabolism (and her destiny) forever. Perhaps it just means that they can 'mind meld,' whereas he would normally only be able to do this with other aliens like Isabel and Michael. But perhaps it has changed her more than we know . . . I'm sorry if some think my idea that Max may be a 'king in disguise' is trite. It is the personality of Max and the able playing of Jason Behr that has led me to this thought. Max has many natural leadership qualities, and it is obvious that he has had great powers from childhood. He has already twice interceded to save lives (that we know of), and he already has more maturity and conscience (with all the doubt and self-examination that go with them) than Is or (especially) Michael. It seems obvious to me that he is extraordinary, perhaps even by alien standards, and as such would be a much more able adversary to Nasedo (or a hostile government agent) than the others. [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-06-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-06-2000 08:24 AM Elliot: I agree with you that Max's leadership has almost a noble quality about it. In SH Michael describes Max as "a sensitive guy". But I think it goes beyond sensitivity--it is a consistent inclination to take the moral high road in lieu of easier paths. Moreover asking "are you sure" in the midst of sexual frenzy and confronted with an all too willing Liz, underscores Max's basic goodness. I don't think your suggestion is trite at all, but a very real part of either the writers' intent--or JB's interpretation of Max. I wonder what we are "destined" to see in Max's future characterization? [Although the "spoiler" part of my brain could answer that--a rhetorical question here will have to suffice!] asdf Member Posts: 347 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-06-2000 08:34 AM Elliott: I also don't like the idea of the orb controlling Max and Liz and it leading them to discover it. First of all (and I haven't read through most of this thread so forgive me if I have repeated something) the orb was discovered through the visions and Liz really only had the visions when things were getting "intense". First of all Max went to Liz in this beginning of last week's episode on his own will. (as someone accurately pointed out on the spoiler board) He didn't know that she was having the visions yet. He just well...really wanted to be close to Liz...and that was what lead him to her (thereby refuting the idea that he was just using her to get information about the crash) I don't think the orb played a role in them getting together in the first place, it just was the natural progression of what was happening between them. Also I don't think Nasedo was controlling them. First of all he didn't even know about Liz, so how would he know to put the visions "inside her head" If he was just out to use one of the aliens and their relationship with humans then technically the visions with Max should have occurred with anyone he happened to kiss, and not specific to her. Does that make any sense? HollyLou Member Posts: 239 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-06-2000 09:17 AM This thread is incredible. I have really limited myself when it comes to watching Roswell! I was mainly concerned with the romantic relationships (M&L in particular) but you all have really awakened in me an interest in sci-fi that I never would have dreamed existed! Just in time for the new emphasis on the sci-fi aspect...I'm going to continue lurking since, for now, this discourse is over my head! ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-06-2000 10:32 AM I apologize if the first part seems more it belongs on the REVAMPED ROSWELL thread, but I just thought it ties right in with this discussion. Having read the spoilers (and been told first hand by people who work on the show at the LA Roswell Gathering), I know character shake-ups are on the way. However, the central arc is still up for grabs in regards to Nasedo and everything else. What I am hoping is that they come to some definitive discoveries about their origins and themselves at the end of this season that will carry over to next season (yes, I am optimistic) AND open new doors to some engaging storylines to boot. I think if they do this correctly, the show will be better off overall and give it some focus. Which will allow the great relationships to continue AND enhance them because they will have something bigger than themselves to defend or explore. Secondly, in regards to Max being heroic or kingly... I don't mind that idea, I just hope that if they do it they breathe new life into it because we've seen it before in every single sci-fi show/movie to date. I have to agree that Max is definitely the leader and the moral compass and wise beyond his years (maybe this is because Jason Behr is my age and not 16, or maybe it's because of his excellent portrayl; I don't know), and I think that he is "destined" to do something that has not been revealed yet. kla Junior Member Posts: 9 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-06-2000 11:05 AM Great thread. I haven't been able to read all of it so I hope I'm not repeating something, but I would like to respond to one of LSS's possible scenarios about the orb. It is possible that the orb is a threat to Nasedo, however, if you recall we see a shadow move across Liz and Max as they sleep. Then they wake up and see Nasedo. As the camera passed over them sleeping you can see the orb lying on the blanket next to Liz... out in the open. If Nasedo wanted to get rid of it wouldn't that have been the perfect time to just take it and disappear? Or was that not Nasedo's shadow. It did have a rather strange shape. Didn't really look like a person. Hum??? Just a thought. kla Junior Member Posts: 9 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-06-2000 11:06 AM Great thread. I haven't been able to read all of it so I hope I'm not repeating something, but I would like to respond to one of LSS's possible scenarios about the orb. It is possible that the orb is a threat to Nasedo, however, if you recall we see a shadow move across Liz and Max as they sleep. Then they wake up and see Nasedo. As the camera passed over them sleeping you can see the orb lying on the blanket next to Liz... out in the open. If Nasedo wanted to get rid of it wouldn't that have been the perfect time to just take it and disappear? Or was that not Nasedo's shadow. It did have a rather strange shape. Didn't really look like a person. Hum??? Just a thought. Zandria Member Posts: 37 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-06-2000 11:49 AM After reading all the posts and reading what everyone had to say, I have come to my own speculations. First one is(sorry if I'm repeating what someone says) maybe the orb manipulates the Aliens feelings, which would explain what will be happening in future episodes. Secondly, Some people have said that maybe Max is some special Messiah type figure....but what about Liz? If you look throughout the episodes their have been things to suggest that she is special, a)she can see the visions b) Max is drawn to her c) when River Dog says that she must choose her own path, could be taken as more than just helping Micheal, and have you ever noticed the way River Dog treats her. Well I'll stop rambling, feel free to tell me if you agree or disagree. Great Thread by the way. CubFan Member Posts: 308 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-06-2000 11:54 AM This is a great thread. Everyone who has posted their ideas - well I just think they are amazing and have really made me think a lot. This is a great discussion! CubFan Cubs in 2000!!!! Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-06-2000 12:37 PM quote: Originally posted by Bookish: While part of me would be intrigued to find that Liz has alien lineage, I still favor Elliott's observation that her essence may have in some way been altered by Max's healing of her. It could be that this particular combination activated the orb, perhaps altering some grand master plan that Nasedo had. I like this idea a lot... that would be a really romantic scene between the two of them if they somehow figured out that a change in Liz's physiology was fueled by Max's love for her. The writers could go many different directions with the power of their love. Because Max is alien, I think he gives what they share a special twist, but I don't think what they share is there because of some orb or outside force. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-06-2000 01:46 PM bump lizabeth Member Posts: 36 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-06-2000 03:55 PM This thread is great, I'm just bumping! Jufemme Junior Member Posts: 9 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-06-2000 04:58 PM wow, i'm blown away by the intensity of this post. made me delurk and register i gotta throw my two cents in. ok, here goes. this is the second time around cuz it got erased b4 i could post it, grrr. lesse, ah yes... the sexual frenzy. that scene in michael's apartment looked like they were both on drugs, liz especially. what if they were? the idea that an outside force was feeding them aphrodasiacs (sp?) is fascinating but way too complicated for a wb tv show, IMHO. so maybe it was some sort of chemical secreted by max, a pheromone of some sort. it could be normal alien physiology working, or it could be triggered by something. the alcahol could've been a catalyst. what about michael and maria? michael could've been lying to make her feel better cuz he really does care (several fics have sugested that he's cared for her and watched her from afar for *years* and therefore would know such information). if he wasn't lying, then this theory falls apart. i have yet to decide if he was or not. however, let's say he wasn't... as seen in ID, michael is a powerhouse (manipulation of the air molecules on a *much* larger scale than either isabelle or max, liz's healing notwithstanding). the whole thing with the balance affected more things than aluded to or explained - *yet*. i think it was the balance ceremony which caused the sign in the woods and the orb or allerted naseido so he could activate the sign and the orb. that would explain why he's doing stuff now and not 10 yrs ago (besides plot ). so the orb isn't necessarily related exclusively to the sexual frenzy. so what is? when max healed liz, he formed a connection. whether it's physical, a psionic link, a combination of both, or something else all together remains to be discovered. whatever it is it's there and has been progressing into something untill liz stepped out of the balance. when she did, it either a) was in danger of being set back/inhibited or even destroyed and overcompensated with the pheromones to stabilize itself; b) became stronger and the bout of sexual desire is something that would've happened later as aposed to sooner; or c) was not affected in any way and the pheromones (or the link equivelent) are natural products of the high and low auscilating activity of the link. take your pick the bottom line is that the aliens do this connection thing. IMHO the connections aren't necessarily permament, but they're still very intense. the trio's minds are just more active than us humans'. maybe they use 30% of their brain instead of the 19%(i think) that we do. knowing that, i think that maria and michael formed a bond of their own during the balance, it's just not as active as max and liz's. or maybe it's structured differently b/c they're so different from max and liz. as to why there seemed to be a connection between the orb and the max/liz excitement- coincidence (just one of those hilarious weird things) or they were more receptive to whatever the orb was broadcasting due to their higher awareness of each other. or the orb is some sort of receiver and picked up on the intensity of the link. also, i don't necessarily believe that the cowboy guy was naseido, since the shadow on max and liz was at night. he could be just a cowboy guy. that's all for now, folks. i was much more articulate the first time i typed that up best of luck, jufemme oh yeah, question: when did naseido torture hank? i thought he just killed him. why? to push michael to finally not have him as a crutch. cujo Junior Member Posts: 12 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-06-2000 07:45 PM delurking to say that this is the best thread i think i have ever read on this board. Very insightful and intriguing. I am also bumping this up for more thoughts. OlderFan Member Posts: 418 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-06-2000 07:53 PM THIS is the kind of thread I think Mandy should print out for her visit to the set on Friday and her interviews with the cast members. I would like the WB and the producers to see the kind of intense interest this show has generated. And from people from all sorts of backgrounds, not just 14 year old girls who squeal over how cute Jason and Brendan are. Somehow I doubt that the Popular Board would attract such intelligent and insightful posts on the storyline and characters!! Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-06-2000 08:59 PM OlderFan - Did I tell you already that I agree with you on everything?? I almost said something about this thread in my declaration of why I love Roswell, but instead of specifically mentioning the name, I just threw in a comment about it. This thread is one of the main reasons I love the show so much. I can't get enough of all these different plot twists and talk about aliens in general. That said, does anyone know of any good fiction books that deal with some kind of storyline like this in any way? Preferably something set in this time... maybe Melinda Metz should consider taking her Roswell High novels to the next level. Actually, I'd take something non-fiction too... any suggestions? Jufemme Junior Member Posts: 9 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-06-2000 09:32 PM great, i'm addicted to posting here now, thx a lot i was just wondering if there are other threads as insightful as this one on the board... past or present. doesn't necesarrily have to deal with the sci-fi aspect. i've been luking for a few months now, but it takes sooooo long to wade through everything. and i realize that this is OT, but still. best of luck, jufemme LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-07-2000 05:36 AM Zandria: Great points concerning Liz's characterization and importance to the plotline. So far we have at least three different theories on this thread concerning Liz: 1) Liz as human; 2) Liz as altered human (due to her healing/connection with Max); and 3) Liz as part alien. Of the three I think I find more intriguing the idea of an "altered Liz". Not only does it explain the visions and physical manifestations she encounters, but it also is a logical extension of the aliens' ability to alter the molecular structure of matter. Although we have not seen (in the episodes thus far) this ability extended to the biological level--perhaps it is implied in what is happening to Liz. If Liz has been altered (albeit unintentionally on Max's part) then Liz the Scientist is in a unique position to mediate (in the future) between the two species. Or at least--if we extend the M/L story arc--to be the mother of the first alien/human hybrid. TamyMom Member Posts: 56 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-07-2000 06:17 AM All I can say is WOW! This is the first thread to really pique my interest in a long while. Thanks to all of you for your insightful comments. The whole Max as the 'Alien Messiah' theory really appeals to me. I can picture him as a descendant of royal (alien) blood. I am also not convinced that the shape shifting trouble maker-is our Nasedo. Wish I had time to add more. I am looking forward to more posts on this very intriguing thread. Tammy [This message has been edited by TamyMom (edited 03-07-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-07-2000 06:56 AM NOTE TO MY LAST POST: When I said that we had not seen their ability to alter the molecular level of matter extended to the biological level--I should have qualified my statement with the phrase "other than when it comes to healing". Healing implies a return to normal health--while the "altered" Liz scenario implies an outcome other than normal. Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-07-2000 07:10 AM LSS: Re your thought that Liz could at some future date be the mother of the first alien/human hybrid. If we accept that aliens may have been 'born' at any and all times after 1947, then it is possible that alien/human hybrids have already been born. We have two possible roads to go down on that: We can choose to believe that the alien imperative is so strongly inbred in the species that Max was the first to break the tabu when he feel in love with and then saved Liz (a VERY appealing idea to me. Max is such a quiet, dignified rebel!) This would explain Nasedo's anger at them and possible future tampering in their love lives. Or we can more realistically believe that there have been alien/human hybrids before. And they may be highly maladaptive. Or just very shrewd and manipulative. This could be a promising story idea for future episodes. Or maybe a character we have already been introduced to (Topolsky?) can turn out to be the product of such a liaison. Topolsky is a government agent (evidently). But as a part alien, where would her real loyalty lie? Especially re Max and Liz? [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-07-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-07-2000 07:42 AM Elliot: What great plot ideas (as usual). I'm out guest lecturing today, but will respond later. LSS lizabeth Member Posts: 36 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-07-2000 11:13 AM I'm really liking this idea of Max being a messiah type figure. This may explain why he is the one manifesting these visions inside Liz while Micheal and Isabel aren't with their respective counterparts. Perhaps, this information is meant for him, since he is the "leader." As far as alien/human hybrids already being here, that's just really reaching. I'm not saying it couldn't be, but with the info we have, while very interesting and imaginative, it's just not something that we could even assume. All we know right now is that there is at least one other alien, and he's been shape-shifting and killing people, not procreating. If they ever even get to something like Liz being pregnant, it would be much more interesting for her to be the first mother of an alien hybrid and to see how that will affect her and her body. This thread is really great, keep the posts coming! lizabeth Member Posts: 36 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-07-2000 01:11 PM bumping Jufemme Junior Member Posts: 9 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-07-2000 01:14 PM hybrid ideas are fascinating b/c there's an infinite amound of directions to go in. there's an absolutely wonderful peace of fan fiction- "fallen star" by savannah- that deals with just that. sci-fi heavy with amazing history for the aliens' race. Maria's the hybrid. i've read an enormous amound of fanfic over the years and have very strict standards. i cannot recommend this story enough. it can be found at http://courtney.simplenet.com/m&m/ i'd be very interested to discuss the story with others that have read it, especially now that it's rerun time again. best of luck, jufemme Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-07-2000 04:38 PM Just bumping... Roswell The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions (Page 3) This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions lizabeth Member Posts: 36 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-07-2000 06:56 PM bumping Bookish Member Posts: 170 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-07-2000 10:32 PM Bumping again Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-08-2000 09:31 PM I don't want this thread to fall off the page, but I don't have anything to say right now except something that's a huge spoiler, so we can't talk about it on here... or maybe I can find a way around it. In other beings or societies on other planets, do you think they would feel attached to each other the way humans do? If Nasedo (or other aliens we don't know about yet) does have evil intentions, maybe he's angry because Max has broken some kind of rule from his planet about relationships... this probably makes no sense, but I just wonder if there were some kind of rules from their home that were supposed to be followed, and eventually they're going to pay for breaking them on Earth. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-08-2000 11:34 PM Well-- as has been mentioned before on this thread-- we really don't know at this point about Nesedo's plans--but for the sake of argument, let's say that his function is to be a "mentor" or to instruct our three aliens in their alien heritage. If this is the case I can envision a clash between Nesedo's plans for our aliens' future and their desire for self-control. If the orb is linked to Nesedo, and if the orb has anything to do with the enhanced sexual needs we saw on SH, then we might conclude Nesedo has already manipulated Max's life. (Not that I think Max minded much!) But what if, let's say, Nesedo does not want Max and Liz together permanently, but wants Max with someone else (someone--Elliot I think-- brought up the possibility of other aliens and other pods)? Such a plot twist might cause a conflict between the "greater good" of the alien culture vs the free will of our aliens and their loyalty to their human friends/potential mates (i.e., Liz). This conflict is even more likely if Max (or any of the others) occupy a special place in Nesedo's/alien culture's plans--a special destiny (see Elliot's idea of the messianic possibilities of Max's characterization). The above conflict of cultures is a "soft" Sci-fiction theme that has yet to be deveoped on Roswell. While our aliens have experienced "alienation" (sorry for the pun) they know almost nothing about their biological culture. If Nesedo makes them aware of it, they will no doubt have to choose--at some point--between it and their adopted culture. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-08-2000 11:40 PM P.S. Kate6058 -- I tried to "talk around" what you were "talking around" using info just on this tread. Hope it helped! LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-09-2000 11:40 AM Kate6058--are you out there? Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-09-2000 12:10 PM Hello LSS... I'm out here, it's now Thursday and I posted that yesterday, but I'm here. So are you aware exactly about what (or who) I'm trying to "talk around?" I'm very attached to the idea that they are so much more human than alien, and if they were ever faced with the decision of following their planned destiny (of which they have not been a part and know nothing about) and the one they were "adopted" into, they would have to choose to stay here. One of the major milestones of their lives is going to be the final acceptance that they don't know their "home" culture and probably don't belong there anymore. If they were to go back, I think they'd be very unhappy... not just because of love interests on Earth, but because they would be doing something completely different from human life. No TV, no Tabasco (even though their food would taste right), no anything that is familiar. So, maybe Nasedo is here to try to prevent them from swaying too far from their previously planned life paths. He might believe that the connection between Max and Liz is probably the first thing of any significance (besides Isabel and Max being adopted) that is strong enough to completely change Max's mind, thus causing him to lose one of his own, but actually, each day they live on Earth, they grow farther from their "own" people. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-09-2000 12:54 PM Kate6058: Yes I am aware (all too aware...sigh). One of the ironic elements of our alien's "quest" for home, is that their human friends --in a sense--represent family/home in a way that Nesedo does not. Max's words: "I'm a human trapped in an alien body" (Convention) on one level is truer than he realizes! Of course, on a biological level, Nesedo is linked to Max in a way that Liz cannot be. It is this biological level--with whatever unknown imperatives it entails--that may be the problem should the two cultures come into conflict. On a purely volitional level, you and I believe that, should Max ever be called on to do so, Max would choose Liz/Earth over Nesedo. But biological instincts are strong. Liz's words at the beginning of SH (in the shower) were chilling. She spoke of internal changes--changes that she had no control over--changes that seemed to her almost "chemical". If it proves that the link between our aliens and their alien culture is based on that kind of biological connection--then what you have laid is the foundation for major dramatic tension and conflict--and a very rocky road ahead for the future of our aliens' human relationships. Absolutely Addicted Member Posts: 495 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-09-2000 12:54 PM I really have nothing to comment on, in terms of the sci-fi aspect, but I just had to laugh when I read both of your posts! How cute are the two of you for "talking around" what you both know?! For whatever it's worth, you've both done really well! Granted, I know exactly what both of you are "talking around"--we've all seen each other's posts on the Spoiler Board, right?!--but, I just had to smile. And, bump! Absolutely Addicted Member Posts: 495 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-09-2000 12:56 PM I really have nothing to comment on, in terms of the sci-fi aspect, but I just had to laugh when I read both of your posts! How cute are the two of you for "talking around" what you both know?! For whatever it's worth, you've both done really well! Granted, I know exactly what both of you are "talking around"--we've all seen each other's posts on the Spoiler Board, right?!--but, I just had to smile. And, bump! LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-09-2000 12:56 PM Kate6058: Yes I am aware (all too aware...sigh). One of the ironic elements of our alien's "quest" for home, is that their human friends --in a sense--represent family/home in a way that Nesedo does not. Max's words: "I'm a human trapped in an alien body" (Convention) on one level is truer than he realizes! Of course, on a biological level, Nesedo is linked to Max in a way that Liz cannot be. It is this biological level--with whatever unknown imperatives it entails--that may be the problem should the two cultures come into conflict. On a purely volitional level, you and I believe that, should Max ever be called on to do so, Max would choose Liz/Earth over Nesedo. But biological instincts are strong. Liz's words at the beginning of SH (in the shower) were chilling. She spoke of internal changes--changes that she had no control over--changes that seemed to her almost "chemical". If it proves that the link between our aliens and their alien culture is based on that kind of biological connection--then what you have laid is the foundation for major dramatic tension and conflict--and a very rocky road ahead for the future of our aliens' human relationships. Bookish Member Posts: 170 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-09-2000 01:00 PM LSS: It would certainly be an interesting plot twist if Nasedo did indeed use the orb to control Max and Liz's behavior. I suspect Max, however, would take exception. The very idea that someone else would have control of his, ah....how to phrase this..."self-control?" around Liz, would reinforce Max's fears about using Liz as "a thing". And I would like to think Liz would be understanding about it, if this indeed did happen, but somehow I suspect she's been working herself up to having a conflict with the "alien=ness" angle. I wish I could spend more time, but I have to dash off to a meeting. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-09-2000 01:03 PM Sorry--I'm not sure why we've started having double posts. LSS Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-09-2000 01:12 PM And now the question, LSS, is whether or not Liz has in fact been changed "chemically" or "biologically" or whatever by the connections with Max as a result of how strongly he feels for her. I think this is the most romantic thing in the world, and I hope it's true. Could this change make her more biologically compatible than a human, but still some less than someone from their home planet? I think if Michael was to feel this strongly about Maria (and I know some people believe he does, but I really don't think so), then maybe she would be experiencing some of the same things Liz did in Sexual Healing, but I don't think there's a strong enough connection there yet. So, that could justify why Liz sees things and Maria (and even Isabel) doesn't. Absolutely Addicted - Don't you love that spoiler board? It's almost as good as this thread! Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-09-2000 06:02 PM We keep falling off the page! LSS, are you out there? JanetMG Member Posts: 144 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-09-2000 07:33 PM Great thread, all! Very interesting possibilities. Your comments that there are similar threads on the spoiler board are severely trying my willpower. What if its less of a destiny v. free will battle & more of a nature v. nurture one. A species that mastered interstellar travel may have gotten a lot further than we have on genetic or biochemical research. What if they were to genetically predispose certain personality traits. Wouldn't you want the leader of a future colony to have Max-like traits--wise beyond his years, born leader, a little cautious--into planning, etc. You could even give him a stronger yearning for the civilization he is supposed to rebuild (he cried a lot & desperately wanted to go home when he first went to the Evans, finding out about home is as important to him as it to Michael even though he has a home in Roswell). Isabel--maybe she was initially supposed to be a co-leader/wife/mother--she's smart and capable (with the exception of Toy House, Max almost always looks to her for advice before making a decision), more adaptable/able to put down roots & build a home (felt at home almost immediately at the Evans) and strong on the maternal, nuturing & caregiving skills (Topolsky's survey, relationship w/ Michael-nurse, protector, sister, telling Max to go to Liz in Leaving Normal, etc.) Michael-- Every leader needs his/her impetuous, distrustful, warrior type to get certain things done & provide balance. Visionaries can be helpful, as well. Of course the crash messed everything up. It killed or scattered the adult aliens (or destroyed or misplaced any gizmos like Superman's crystal) that were supposed to raise, train, and teach Max, Michael & Isabel. Max & Is grew up as brother & sister in this society. That's more than enough to outweigh any predisposition/plan for them to be a couple. Michael missed out on the Evans because of his lack of trust, and ended up in a situation that would enhance any such predisposition. He's slowly been able to develop some level of trust/connection with Max (the born leader type) & Isabel (a strong nurturer) both because of their heightened abilities and because of his home life. In fact the clash between Michael's predisposition to distrust, Max's predisposition toward inspiring trust (good leader) and Isabel's nurturing/maternal instincts could explain why the trust level between the trio seems to vary from episode to episode. This would fit in with the idea that Nacedo (and/or the bad alien from BD) may not be too thrilled to see what remains of the plans to rebuild Camelot. You could have some interesting conflicts, both internally & externally w/Nacedo, between what M, M, & I were "predisposed" to be (or some variation that Nacedo finds more acceptable) and what they have become based on their environment and free will. [This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 03-09-2000).] Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-09-2000 09:42 PM Well, I'm going to mail some more Tabasco tomorrow... do you think anyone at The WB would be interested in seeing this thread? Roswell has gotten our brains churning out more and more ideas about this... it's gone beyond the surface that so many other regular shows survive on. I'll print it out and send it if anyone thinks it's a good idea... LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-10-2000 07:04 AM Sorry--I had to be gone for a while. To comment on your posts: Kate6058: I agree that the notion of an "altered" Liz reinforces on the material level the notion of the emotional/spiritual concept of "soulmate" and is extremely attractive (especially to M/L shippers). In terms of narrative logic, it also may explain Liz's words in the shower/fantasy. One the on hand we initially think those words have to do with normal human puberty. But if you think about it, isn't it a bit late for those hormones to be finally kicking in with Liz? More logical is the notion that, if the orb is "turning on" something in Max, the same can be true for Liz. This doesn't have to take away from M/L's relationship, just explain its frenzied nature in SH. [NOTE: as to sending this thread...several people suggested it earlier. I'm just not sure about copyright issues. Does sharing material posted on a thread require the permission of the people posting? I know if I were writing an article on "fan/fandom" --which I'm not--I would have to get permissioin before using this material.] JanetMB: Great point in bringing up the nature/nuture issue--I was thinking about that on the way home last night!!! Gender studies often deal with this in terms of what defines "man" and "woman" (are these roles that are essential to our biological status or are they learned from society). I find your speculation on whether or not our aliens are biologically determined toward certain roles/traits (Kate6058--certain relationships?) or even bioengineered through genetic manipulation a fascinating possibility. Well done!!! This extends the noton of a "clash of cultures" to a more intense biological level. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-10-2000 08:03 AM LSS, Quick note - I didn't think Liz was talking about some kind of puberty or natural changes when she was in the shower. I never even thought about that until you mentioned it, actually. I think she meant that there was something strange going on with her body, and she knew it had to do with Max because he appeared right away... like she was questioning herself and he was the answer. Were we discussing the hickey on this thread? Does anyone actually think it got like that because they were apart? Again, how romantic. [This message has been edited by Kate6058 (edited 03-10-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-10-2000 08:52 AM No--I don't think that Liz's POV on the hickey has been discussed. Liz comments that if her theory is true it would be "disasterous"--and I guess I would have to agree. If there is going to be some type of physical dependence between the two that can only be resolved by continued contact, then this does not bode well for future periods of forced separation! Of course one could argue that this dependence might cease at the point of consumation. (So much for "casual" physical relationships with aliens!) Again, however--why Liz and not Maria? Unless you go with the idea that there is some essential difference between M/L and M/M...either emotionally or physically. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-10-2000 12:22 PM Kate6058: an additional thought--you'd have to figure out whether or not the glowing hickey is, in the end, a negative (a sign that alien/human relationships are too "different") or positive (the altered Liz theory). From Maria's and Liz's POV it seems like the former is implied. db Member Posts: 224 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-10-2000 01:27 PM I've been thinking about this for a while and someone else mentioned it on another thread but the whole thing about max and liz being the only ones effected by the orb i don't think is quite right-to a little extent so was michael and maria-i say this because in SH michael just like max has visions of maria(and her life) which i assume is the first time this has happened for him and like many others have mentioned before M/M visions weren't at the same level as M/L because their(M/M)connection is not as strong as M/L-M/M are still at a stage where they are not really sure what their relationship is and how serious while M/L basically know they are in love-which then goes a long way to explain what michael was talking about to Is. about making connections LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-10-2000 02:12 PM I think you make a good point about Michael's having no visions until now about Maria. But then, his powers are imaged as inconsistent throughout the series so that this point may be more ambiguous then first seen. What is significant is that Maria has no visions. Moreover, M/M's "frenzied" make-out sessions are not really out of character for them. M/L's make-out sessions ARE (he follows her around like she was in heat). Liz's visions add to the oddness. Frankly, as a M/L shipper I liked the reunion, but felt a vague unease with the intensity of the sessions. If that d*****d "beeping" hadn't accompanied many of Liz's visions I would have felt better!!! LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-10-2000 02:14 PM Postscript to db: In terms of Micahel...maybe the orb isn't finished working? GraceKel Member Posts: 399 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-10-2000 08:39 PM Well I have been reading this thread for awhile now but was afraid I wasn't quite smart enough to post anything as amazing as you guys but here is what I have been guessing and I get pretty confused sometimes so I could be dead wrong! They got a signal at the end of INTO THE WOODS from Nasedo that he was back(at least thats what Michael said)-next eppy was BLIND DATE-Liz's blind date Doug who just happens to major in ARCHEOLOGY and talks about women always on some quest to discover some ancient secret almost like he is trying to find things out about Liz-he says who are you gonna find in Roswell to date an ALIEN-he!he! and he uses the word NORMAL several times during the episode--He said he wanted Liz all to himself(either for info or maybe evil intentions who knows)- He kissed Liz-at end Liz kisses Max and this is when visions of universe began cuz at beginning of ID LIz tells Maria about UNIVERSE -now Max and Liz did not have chance to spend any real time together cuz they were sidetracked with Michaels problems but during ID ep in cafe Liz tells Maria I try to stay away but I can't help myself-in walks Max-and she says he obviously feels the same way! So I think things were already getting started-now as far the ORB goes I do not know if Nasedo set it off or whether he needed Max to find it or what the story is with that. I also thought that the shoes walking at the end of Blind Date looked like the same shoes Doug was wearing on the stage. Of course Nasedo is a shapeshifter so he can change himself-which he has being Hank and now of course the other guy. Liz and Max shared a pretty potant kiss in Heatwave and did not have these kind of visions-they started in Blind Date so since Doug kissed Liz-it might have triggered something I am just guessing. So what do you think? Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-10-2000 10:20 PM GraceKel - Your idea is interesting, but I feel that it happened the other way around... I think Max just couldn't hold out any longer and had to be with Liz right then, and that's why they started everything that happened in SH. I also think they kept going more because of passion for each other than to find clues in visions, even though they may have tried to convince themselves otherwise. I don't know if the intense connection between them set off the orb or not, but that's the direction I think it took, no the other way around. Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-10-2000 10:26 PM Just jumping back in after a long hiatus from this thread... Kate and LSS, you mentioned the hickey. I can't help wondering at the symbolism behind the appearance of the hickey. First it is a shining beacon and then a malignant blotch. I hope not a foreshadowing of Max and Liz's relationship! Also, when Max touched the hickey, it triggered a vision. Did his touch also trigger its transformation? Later, immediately after he healed the blotch, a trace of light followed his touch down her arm (some residual fragment of the so-called hickey?). And when she returned home, she had a fever. Was it a fever of love? Alien passion? Or just her immune system mounting a defense? GraceKel, regarding your theory of Doug being Nasedo--very clever. I think your argument is certainly plausable. I had another ominous thought. Maybe Mr. Archeologist was an FBI plant. Now that the six kids are on the lookout, the FBI has to be even sneakier. Wasn't Liz's Grandma an archeologist or anthropologist? Maybe the FBI (or Nasedo) saw that as an 'in'. One final thought. LSS, I think you mentioned Max's statement of being a human trapped in an alien body and how that's true on a level of which Max is probably unaware. I just wonder if the trio has been altered by their stay on earth and in human society to the extent that they could never fully readapt to their biological society. I guess I'm thinking of a Tarzan analogy. In the pilot, there's dialogue that essentially points that out: Michael- "This isn't home, it's not even our solar system," Max- "It's the only home we know" (or something like that) GraceKel Member Posts: 399 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-11-2000 12:18 PM Kate6058-thanks for responding and yes I agree with you that Max and Liz's feelings are real and would have pursued each other anyway I am just saying that if Doug were Nesado he might also be aware of their attachment and if he wasn't fully aware he would have been by the end of BLIND DATE because Liz ran off with Max and chose Max at the end. I am just saying he might have used this attachment to his advantage and set something more off! And Leneba you have a plausible idea as well that Doug could have been FBI I never thought of that but that would make sense as well. Also about Liz's grandmother-I know she wrote a book wasn't it about Indian tribe which might somehow be worked in as well-not sure how or maybe they were just throwing things out there so we'd be guessing all over the place I don't know. Usually I am pretty good at figuring things out in a mystery but this show has really got me stymied which is another reason I am enjoying it so much! SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-11-2000 11:15 PM I haven't had a chance to post to this thread for a while, but I've been reading it closely, and there've been some great ideas. It hadn't occured to me that there might be two adult aliens until I read ET American's post. The jury's still out on that one, but if the alien at the end of BD really is different to Hank's killer, then a possible interpretation is that he's an MIB kinda character (he was certainly dressed that way). He's also been keeping the aliens under surveillance, hence the photo. I'm still not sure why he burned it, unless it was a message to the young alien trio. Fire "changed the molecular structure" of the photo in an identical manner to how the grass under the symbol was burned away. If Isabel (or Max - Into the Woods) can return the grass to it's original structure after combustion, then theoretically, the photo would have undergone the same return process, and reconstituted itself. Then they'ed have at least known that he knows about all three of them. Of course, we didn't hear any more about the burned symbol. Maybe it will show up in later episodes. GraceKel your idea that Doug could be Nasedo is very plausible, maybe he needed to have physical contact with Liz to see what changes had taken place in her, or to precipitate them? We seem to keep coming back to why only Liz had the visions. LSS and Kate6058 you've been talking about Liz being physically changed by Max. I'm a big one for plausible explanations so here's one idea I had. When Max connects with her in the Pilot to show her his feelings, certain neural pathways in her brain would have lit up. This event could very well have predisposed her to seeing mental images, and each time the pathway is reused it becomes more hard wired. So I'd say Liz's brain has changed. My explanation for the glow is not as realistic, but still plausible. We know Max left a silver handprint on her when he healed her. Instead of the handprint just fading away, maybe it actually got absorbed into her body, and spread throughout her body, much like a virus. (That's how they insert genes for human gene therapy, but you have to accept that the glowing substance is compatible with human physiology). Then Lenaba's comment of "Was it a fever of love? Alien passion? Or just her immune system mounting a defense?" is really insightful. Somehow the contact with Max, or some frequency the orb emitted, caused the glowing material to be more active. If we take the assumption one step further, that the glowing substance contains alien heritable material, and that it's actually changing Liz's genome, then the story idea that Max and Liz can be biologically compatible in a procreation sense holds together. I also think Liz is aware of this at some level. LSS pointed out her comment in the shower scene, plus someone else mentioned that even by ID she couldn't stay away from Max. The scene where she runs into the bathroom after yelling at her mom that "It's my body" could also be read along these lines, and not just sexual lines. We could be talking about a biological imperative here, which a lot of people wont like. JanetMG I really liked your idea that they could be genetically predisposed to certain personality traits. If your planet is dying and you're sending out colonization ships as your last hope, you're going to want to maximize the possibility of success. So, yeah, I totally buy the different character types. On top of wanting a new colony to have a successful, non-conflicting social structure you'ed also want to ensure genetic diversity. If you were unable to send enough individuals to insure a viable (genetic) population, you could include highly varied genetic stock, and then institute breeding programs to optimize genetic diversity. I gather this is what LSS and Kate6058 are hinting at. Since I'm staying away from the spoiler board, I feel free to say that it would be logical under the above assumptions to assume that Max has a female alien counterpart he's supposed to procreate with. So if I stick to all my assumptions, we have Liz who's Max's soul mate changing biologically to be more compatible, plus his alien mate is potentially in the equation too. I tend to agree with Kate6058 that Max will choose Liz, and that cultural identification outways biological identification. But I suppose we'll just have to wait and see. Thanks for wading through all that Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-11-2000 11:48 PM SF, great post. I enjoyed wading through it. And your assumption about Max's counterpart is right. All of my personal beliefs come into play when I'm thinking about this... I always believe in human nature (or the nature of one's own mind, no matter what species you are) over a higher power, that we develop our own personalities, and that those lead us to our soulmates (remember that Max and Isabel grew up in this socitety). So, whether or not there is a plan for Max, I don't think he will be able to (nor should he have to) follow through with it if it doesn't involve the things in his life that he wants and that keep him on the path that he needs to take. I think Liz is undergoing chemical changes, and she knows it. She mentioned it in the shower scene, and, like you said SF, she got very offensive about it with her mother. While these changes are probably making her uneasy, she is letting them happen. This ties in with your theory about the brain channels opening up, SF. I think for these changes to happen, Liz had to let them. Max's initial connection opened up Liz's world to his, and she chose to embark on the journey... now this is what's happening. She's too involved to get out now. Not to say that Max's connection was some kind of hypnotization... "It was only natural." Maybe someone else was supposed to go down that path with Max (either to try to prevent their species from becoming extinct when they sent out people from their dying planet, or just because someone on that planet was supposed to be his mate), but it's not open to that person anymore. This, obviously, would create problems. But... being the strong believer that I am in true love, I'm not worrying about those possible problems anymore. SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-12-2000 09:16 AM Thanks for responding Kate6058. I'm 100% with you that Max and Liz will end up together in the end, but the bumps in the road could be really interesting. I think it might have been you who posted at one point about wanting to find similar books to this story line. One of the best science fiction love stories I ever read was Yargo by Jaqueline Suzanne. I hope I have the names spelled right, but anyway, it's the same author who wrote Valley of the Dolls. I can't remember the ins and outs of the story, but I was very impressed with it at the time I read it. whisperpoe Member Posts: 1149 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-12-2000 11:17 AM This has got to be my favorite all time thread on the Roswell board. It is the only one i have ever bookmarked separate from the main page. You guys are awesome and inspiring! Who would have known that a television show could get so many like minded individuals together to debate such deep topics As for Kate, who wanted to print the thread and send it, Maybe just sending the url to the thread would be acceptable? That way it is still on the FF board, and you would not have to get permission from anyone about printing it! just a thought, but it would work! ~rikki who decides that tequila is not in her best interest after last night LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-12-2000 01:27 PM Kate6058: Just a quick note about sending this thread to the powers-that-be. The more I think about it, the more I think that my former comments pertain more to written use of this material than to simply viewing it. It seems to me that once people post their comments on a public message board, these comments enter the realm of public domain. I'm not a lawyer, but what I just said seems logical to me at least. I know that I have no problem with someone reading my comments (or else I would not have sent them to begin with). If you think that this thread could in anyway be a positive influence on the current renewal question--then let's send it!!! Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-12-2000 04:02 PM LSS - Then let's send it!! I'll print it out tomorrow and let it be gone with my Tabasco sauce... how about a copy to the Roswell producers/cast? I'll do that too. I think they'd love to see all of this. SF - Thanks for the book suggestion!! I'm going to go check it out on amazon.com soon. Anyone else have any recommendations? On another note... I was watching Sexual Healing yet again, and now I'm almost sure that the rest of this season is going to have to do with conflicting destinies. Liz was on a path with Kyle that she didn't want to be on (and would have involved other guys who didn't satisfy her), only she didn't know it at the time... and even though he told her that he didn't think it was ever her destiny, Max "saved" her from it. So, maybe now it's Liz's turn to "save" Max from the one he was supposed to be on according to his home planet's rules. If Max could have to go through a wrong destiny in order to keep the one meant for him, why couldn't Liz? Maybe he really is her hero in that sense. As soon as the word "destiny" came out of Max's mouth, I knew that this would somehow come up again before this season is over. Some other things I want to say... I was just watching Contact on TNT (for probably the 10th time) and it really made me want to come post on this thread. When Earth finds out about the signal from space in that movie, there is a huge gathering of believers and non-believers in New Mexico near the research facility and people just going crazy in general. It makes me wonder how I would react if I was alive when something like that was discovered. I hope I am alive to see that... but anyway, I really think I'd be calm and ask more questions rather than freak out and hide in a bomb shelter underground... at least I hope so. Thinking about all this is so overwhelming, anyone else think so? I just think it'd be so amazing if we could find out at least one thing about what's really out there and have everyone share the knowledge... it makes me want to have a secret like Liz Parker has, you know? Maybe that's why she and Max are soulmates... she has enough of an open mind to accept it and move on. I don't know, I just love this show and they better not cancel it!! Send your Tabasco!! And whisperpoe... I'm with you. This is definitely my favorite thread. [This message has been edited by Kate6058 (edited 03-12-2000).] milkyway Member Posts: 35 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-12-2000 08:02 PM Kate6058-"Contact" is one of my favorites. A religious experience for me. Just wanted to let you know what a great thread this is. The best on the board right now. I downloaded it so I could read it again. So many thought-provoking ideas. I don't understand it all but was amazed by how far you have taken this. I need to go back and watch some of the episodes with your interpretations in mind. I too would love to be alive when they finally discover that we are not alone in this universe. I will be looking forward to your comments after all the upcoming episodes. It will be so interesting to see if the writers will take this show to the levels you have discussed. I hope so. Please continue this thread. I will be looking for it. milkyway Member Posts: 35 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-12-2000 08:03 PM Kate6058-"Contact" is one of my favorites. A religious experience for me. Just wanted to let you know what a great thread this is. The best on the board right now. I downloaded it so I could read it again. So many thought-provoking ideas. I don't understand it all but was amazed by how far you have taken this. I need to go back and watch some of the episodes with your interpretations in mind. I too would love to be alive when they finally discover that we are not alone in this universe. I will be looking forward to your comments after all the upcoming episodes. It will be so interesting to see if the writers will take this show to the levels you have discussed. I hope so. Please continue this thread. I will be looking for it. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-12-2000 09:30 PM SF - I checked for the book on amazon and it's out of print! There are some other people on there looking for it too... the reviews were great, now I want to read it! Do you happen to have an extra copy? milkyway - Contact was pretty much a religious experience for me too, if you want to call it that. Ellie Arroway is one amazing character... if they put her on Roswell, woohoo! No, really... I love her ideals, and I just completely relate to her. Actually, I just watched a special on The Learning Channel about the real Ellie (not her real name) and her project that's based out of California... it was pretty cool. I'd love to meet her! ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-13-2000 01:12 AM Haven't posted on this thread in a while, but just wanted to say that like many of you this is a model-thread that should be used to show what a message board can do in terms of the exchange of ideas and enthusiasm about a particular subject, or multifacited subject. I just saw MISSION TO MARS and again, it brought up some big questions about our place in the whole grand scheme of the universe. I won't ruin the movie for those who haven't seen it yet, but I will say that I would rank it up ther with CONTACT as another thought provoking entry into the world of Sci-Fi that was well done and intelligent... Just like Roswell Speaking of CONTACT, I am surprised Roswell DOESN'T have a Radio Astronomer character -- Even an amateur teen who listens on a radio in their bed room or attic -- Because that would just "tie" everything together in regards to science fiction with science fact. Not to get completely off topic, but THE ARRIVAL with Charlie Sheen is another good alien movie that tackles the questions of first contact and our general place in the whole scheme of things. Now, to address some things brought up in the thread thus far... Since we seem to all be buying the "their world was dieing so they sent out ships looking for new worlds to colonize" theory, I just wanted to say that this would be a hell of an interesting and entertaining issue for the writers to explore... Especially if they reveal that the aliens from Max's world are the ones possible for our evolution as human beings... Which in essence would make us all genetic brothers and sisters to an extent. This aspect would reflect the Max and Liz romance because it means they share an ever DEEPER bond than before since they are literally a part of one another at the genetic level. And it would also explain the "changes" Liz is going through if you buy the "Max in fact chnaged Liz in some physical way when he healed her" theory. Also, if there homeworld no longer exists, Max, Michael and Isabel are going to have to accept the fact that Earth is and will be their only home... Which I think the writers will do anyway since whatever the hero seeks is not always what they find, and what they DO find is never actually what they really need in the first place. In other words, like some of you have already stated, they are looking for home... But they are already home in every sense of the word: Family, friends, loves, society, rules, etc. This acceptance would also make Max and company's characters come "full circle" as they accept who they are and WHERE they have ended up. SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-13-2000 04:49 AM Kate6058 I've never owned a copy of it. Sorry. I read it as a library book but in another country. Since she's an american author, I bet you could still find a copy in a library. Like you and milkyway, I also loved Contact. Ellie as a little kid just spoke to me. ETAmerican, I was glad to read your good review of Mission to Mars. I was planning on seeing it anyway, but it's nice to know it's going to be worth it. The whole idea that Max's species could have influenced human evolution, could potentially work considering that the ships scouting out habitable planets could have encountered earth millions of years ago. The Homo line isn't that old, but if you want to influence the Australopithecine line you've got to go back 2 to 3 million years. To gaurantee that those influences are in all humans, the interaction has to happen further back in time. Of course there's still a lot of debate as to whether the modern Homo lines started from single speciation event or mutliple ones. Just things to ponder. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-13-2000 05:37 AM What great thoughts and possible plot lines to develop!!! Science Fiction (or "speculative fiction" as some people call it) is often likened to a "thought experiment" where writers/readers can explore "what if" questions. It seems to me that this thread functions as a venue to explore "what if" questions concerning Roswell's Sci Fic framework. No doubt after the next episode we'll enter our laboratories of thought and have to revise our hypotheses. And this is how it should be. The more the show's writers take seriously their own Sci Fic framework, the more they invite us to think and speculate---and enter into a whole new level of dialogue about our favorite show. What fun...and what a great and insightful group of fans you are! LSS Roswell The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions (Page 4) This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions peanut_and_me Member Posts: 119 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-13-2000 08:24 AM Hi guys, I didn't get to read through every post but I had some thoughts reading thru some of them... 1. They never fully explained how M, M & I were "born"... where were they born, what prompted the pods to "hatch"? How come nobody ever found these pods back in the days of the crash? Did Nasedo hide them until he felt it was a good time to introduce them into the world? Was it accidental? How did they get separated from Nasedo? What happened to these pods after they were born? 2. Who's to say Nasedo is a guy anyway? He shapeshifts so, who knows what he really looks like? 3. I personally get the feeling Nasedo's been watching them for a while. But why kill Michael's foster father? To allow Michael to move out on his own so he could keep tabs on him better? Just some questions/comments I wanted to throw out there... LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-13-2000 08:43 AM Just a quick response to #2 before I'm off to class--Your question about the sexual identity of Nesedo brings up an interesting issue that I don't think we've discussed yet--the sexual identities of our three aliens. Can we assume that beings on Max's planet only come in two categories--male and female? (or that there even TWO categories)? If aliens can shift from male to female, then what does this imply about bondings? Wow!!! Some intersting speculative possibilities here--(but I've got to admit, the dreamgirl in me wants Max to be 100% human/alien male I guess; and truthfully , I don't think Roswell is on-the-edge SF enough to explore the above possibilities). SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-13-2000 11:06 AM 1. peanut-and-me my personal theory is that their birth was accidental. I assume they were on a colonization ship, and developed from frozen embryos. (This explains the incubation pods.) However, it makes no sense that you would grow your fellow colonists up to just a 6 year old human equivalent size. It would make more sense to grow them to adult size. Which would imply the pods are big. How did just one adult alien move them? Development requires energy. My take is that the energy source of the pods either ran out or malfunctioned, and a safety device caused the little aliens to be born rather than die in their pods. I think we can safely assume that Nasedo or the responsible adult alien was not around when this happened, only planning to return to the pod site when the mature aliens were ready to come out of the pods. This opens up questions of development speed within the pods, but again, if we assume that development is equivalent to human development, this might explain Nasedo showing up now. Coming into the world as a fully developed adult would also explain their whole "collective unconcious" talked about by other posters earlier on this thread. You would need to be pre-equipped to integrate rapidly into your adult role, i.e., just reminded of your language and it's written equivalent. For those familiar with Dune (by Herbert) think of the adult Duncan Idaho clones grown in the Tlelaxu tanks, and the environmental recreations they had to go through to reawaken the old memories. The pods had to have been hidden away from the crash site, or they'ed have been discovered. C-unit logically assumed that they'ed be hidden separately (you wouldn't want to leave all your eggs in one basket). The pods should still exist unless Nasedo or another alien destroyed them. 2. Both peanut-and-me and LSS make great points. Does shape shifting just affect your external morphology or does it go deeper. From the shape shift we got to see, I think we can safely say we're not dealing with liquiform aliens here. Whoever came up with the whole Odo/Founder shapeshifting idea in ST-DS9 deserves a creative genius award. So the question becomes if you retain your endo-skeleton, do your internal organs remain the same too. If they do, then you essentially retain you gender even if you look like a different gender externally. But now I'm mixing apples an oranges. There's no reason to assume that the aliens have genders or even if they have a simple dichotomous gender system. I'm with LSS that I don't think Roswell will explore any of this which is why I've resisted up until now suggesting that the assumption that we're even talking about sexual reproduction could be totally bogus. The majority of earth species only undergo sexual reproduction when environmental conditions are inhospitable, otherwise they reproduce asexually. However, in vertebrates, asexual reproduction is in the minority, as are gender changes, but they do happen. [This message has been edited by SF (edited 03-13-2000).] Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-13-2000 11:43 AM I think Max, Michael, and Isabel must have done enough exploring by now to be familiar with their own anatomy... and if there was something drastically different about them that they could tell, I don't think Max would have even considered going as far as he almost did with Liz. Not even the power of the orb would be strong enough to keep him going when he knew in the back of his head that it wasn't possible. But, what if they are physically alike and only different in their internal organs and such? Isabel told Alex that they have urges and feelings just like humans do, so that must mean that something inside of them is the same as far as human anatomy. In the books, they only need 2 hours of sleep and can see better in the dark than light... these are the kind of differences that would have to appear on the show before we can really start to hypothesize that, I think. I like the theory that they somehow evolved like humans did... I have no idea how this would be possible, but maybe it is. Maybe our two races are just very much alike. I read a fanfic where the aliens were sending out colonization ships and they chose Earth because its species were as close to their planet's as they could find. But... if their internal parts really were that different, couldn't they just change their molecular structures into whatever they wanted them to be? ah... SF - I like your idea about the aliens coming out of the pods. It makes a lot of sense. Maybe the orb was some kind of device to signal their births or something... I don't know, that still doesn't explain why it made Max act the way he did. OH. Maybe the orb going off was supposed to signal to Max that there's a girl around who he's supposed to be mating with and all... except Liz isn't really the girl the orb was thinking of... neither was Nasedo (explaining that smirk on his face when he sees them in the desert). Maybe it is supposed to be some kind of sexual awakening for the people of that planet, kind of like puberty on Earth (though the aliens obviously went through human puberty), and it was Max's turn for an awakening. Perhaps this supposed "destiny" from his planet has entered the immediate Roswell vicinity.... hmm.... peanut_and_me Member Posts: 119 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-13-2000 12:57 PM Okay, I'm assuming that, as per the last post I read, that these aliens have a form exactly like humans and can do all the stuff huamns can do plus some. I mean, if they were that freekishly different, wouldn't people have noticed by now. I mean, their mom and dad probably saw them naked when they were young. I'm assuming that the boys showers are also communal and that if they didn't look like the other guys, they'd have been revealed a long time ago. I'm trying to figure out how they went through 16 years (or 10 years, if they were 6 when they emerged) without a blood test. Or going to a doctor. I mean, what happened to the once a year physical. my mom made sure I went every year, sick or healthy. I also agree with the last few posts that Max, being fully aware of what Liz meant when she said "If we're gonna do this, we have to do it tonight" wouldn't have taken her to the middle of the desert if you couldn't deliver.... Jufemme Junior Member Posts: 9 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-13-2000 03:22 PM i gather from everything that's been said that the most probable situation is that there are two genders, male and female (with what humans as a society attach to those titles), and that they do reproduce. also, michael max and isabel "hatched" from their pods. this sugests either some sort of stasis field (2 days or 2 eons? what if they've been buried for millions of years, the crash in '47 was someone coming to look for them, found the pods and opened them in '84, but nasedo had a differnet agenda? my mind's whirling, but i digress ) or genetic engineering. if it's the latter, than what questions does that raise about family and parantage? hell, for all they know they could be a slave race to *another* alien race that breeds them like we do corn. this would be soooooo incredibly tough to deal with b/c i think they really believe that they had parents at one point or another. Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-13-2000 04:33 PM With regards to gender, I think that the aliens in their natural state (whatever that is)must have defined male and female bodies and identities. If it were otherwise, even growing up as humans for the last ten years would not change that. Clearly, Max, Isabel and Michael have the same biological and emotional drives that their human counterparts do. (I'm assuming that if there are gay aliens, that they would follow the same pattern.) With the issue of shapechanging tossed in, I think that the aliens probably retain their endoskeleton and organs. However, even if they don't, their morphed physiology would be of little consequence. After all, an individual is only defined so much by their body. The important part, the very essence of their identity, is their brain (I think of the example of Christopher Reeve when I say this), assuming that their brain is not affected by the shapechanging. I suppose you could make the argument that gender shifting would by definition change their hormones and thus brain chemistry as well. Maybe they can only shapeshift to resemble an individual of like mass, height and gender. And if not, I have a hard time imagining Max, even in a woman's body *unsuccessfully stifling a giggle at the idea* not retaining the essence of his very masculine self. peanut_and_me Member Posts: 119 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-13-2000 05:09 PM Well, when I first thought of shape shifting, I guess I was thinking less of shape-"stealing" Like Nasedo taking on Michael's dad's form, and thinking more of the impression I got from Terminator 2, but that guy's not an alien, so I'm bringing in sci-fi wonders that really don't apply here. I prefer to think of the three as like ultra-humans.... all the qualities of humans + some, like the ability to use these "recreational" powers and such. I like to think one day -- but hopefully, not this season, that Max and Liz will wind up "connecting" both in our human terms and maybe even in a way that goes beyond, like the "seeing into each other's souls" way that can only be done with the aliens. SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-13-2000 07:49 PM Kate6058 great lateral thinking on remembering the orb. I'd forgotten about it. I think Artic Lurker or OlderFan suggested that it might have been preset to go off when it did. Maybe it was supposed to awaken the trio's common memories and explain why they were here - timed to go off close to their emergence from the pods. Except it's actually 10 years too late... I also liked your comment "OH. Maybe the orb going off was supposed to signal to Max that there's a girl around who he's supposed to be mating with and all... except Liz isn't really the girl the orb was thinking of... neither was Nasedo (explaining that smirk on his face when he sees them in the desert)." It sure looks that way, doesn't it? The orb has me flumoxed, as does Nasedo's look. Maybe the orb was just looking for two cooperating individuals to receive it's message, and Max and Liz were not cooperating in the way the orb envisioned. And now we've given the orb agency. What will happen next? Lenaba, I agree that M,M & I appear to have the same emotional and biological drives that humans have and your theory that they would have to come from a species with a gender dichotomy similar to ours holds for Kate6085's idea that earth was chosen because their species and our species are the closest. However, they could have been genetically engineered to look and be like the dominant species on earth, or Nacedo could have changed their molecular structure while they were in the pods so that they'ed look and be like humans. (That could be why Nacedo has been killing all those people, to get all the nitty gritty details right in his molecular structure changes on the trio in the pods. Killing spree = 1959 to early 70s. Trio emerges 1989. Maybe the murder of Hubble's pregnant wife was not the random act of violence it appeared to be). I think there might be a flaw to the logic of a species that's trying to survive by changing itself into a totally different species. It doesn't make sense if you think of species identification in a cultural sense, but technically that is evolution. Would a thinking species consciously choose to evolve into a different species? Now that's a tough question. And as usual it probably doesn't apply to Roswell. I don't want to take away anything from M, M & I's human-ness, but I'd like to keep the alien-ness of Nacedo and any other older aliens as open to possibilities as I can. Of course, would all this genetic engineering or changes in molecular structure affect the alien brain that has taken so many millions of years to evolve? If you can change the molecular structure of something, you can pretty much do anything. The whole genetic engineering theory is a lot more murky. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-13-2000 08:56 PM I was just looking through book 1 of the Roswell High series, and I found this line by Max when he's telling Liz about their backgrounds... "I guess we have really good adaptive skills. I think our systems, and our bodies, patterned themselves after what they found here." I don't know if that means anything about the series... maybe that is their explanation and they just haven't let us know yet? AmandaB Member Posts: 505 Registered: Oct 1999 posted 03-13-2000 10:04 PM I have to say this is the most interesting thread. I came over here to read it from the spoiler board because Kate said too. Little did I know I would get so into it. It took me a long time to read, but it was worth it. You guys have a lot of interesting ideas and concepts!! ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-13-2000 11:48 PM Hello. KATE6058: I just started reading the books. I am halfway through #2 (I can't locate #1) and I glanced through #3. It is hard for me to reconcile the book explanations and the potential story arc for the TV show. The books have a simplistic approach that may not be sophisticated enough for the TV audience, even the young adult audience (I was surprised that these books were in the Child-to-Young Adult reading section, having spent a couple of days looking in the sci-fi section of bookstores). The books, and to some extent the TV show (although it is clear they have not committed to a course suggested by the book) have painted themselves into a corner, limiting some story possibilities. Making their blood so different was probably a tactical mistake. I agree with PEANUT-AND-ME: it is highly unlikely that a child will go through years of life without a blood test, particularly a child under social service supervision (let alone one found wandering in the desert). For the moment I am going to pretend that the production team/writers are going to be only tangentially faithful to the books (ie, "based on") regarding their origins, and speculate. I have to admit I have reservations about referring to M/M/I as "alien". It is clear that they are very much socially and culturally invested in human society and lifestyle. Perhaps they are more of this earth than they possibly know. I dare say (not having seen all the eps) that they have not ventured far from Roswell, except the trip to Marathon, TX. They might feel really weird in NYC, but..hey..we know the real aliens have taken over here (and I'm NOT refering to illegals/immigrants). Some politicians here...uh, I forget myself... back on topic ***hrrrumph*cough*** As I was saying.. As I- and others- have suggested, I think they would be more "alien" among their own people- assuming they have theor own people/home to go to. But the will to know is as strong as the will to find the grail of home/belonging/purpose/self discovery. There's no place like home. There is the possibility that they were created right here on earth. Authorized experiments or not. Military? Smuggled German scientists engaged in unspeakable experiments someone had second thoughts about? Aliens doing the experiments? A great cover for the military would be to take advantage of Cold War and/or UFO hysteria and stage events, including a crash, to deflect attention from their human and/or alien experiments and experiments with alien navigation and technology. They may be hybrids. Possible explanations might include: the genetic material was obtained from the real aliens who actually crashed in 1947. Preliminary experiments may have masked as murders. I really don't know the timeline, and I haven't seen some eps, but perhaps some eggs were harvested from Mrs. Hubble (Someone has to help me here; ??does her death coincide with their creation, ie, six years prior to their appearance??). Someone, human or alien, stole the zygotes to prevent the experiments, or to facilitate the experiments but for their own motives. The pods were intentionally placed at the time they were ready to be released from the pods. They've been there for millenia, as someone suggested, they were hidden for their protection but the being/person who did so became temporarily or permanently incapacitated. They are a part of a great experiment to see how they will adapt and develop: human and "alien" potential. This might explain Michael being "different" and left to grow up in a decidedly non-nurturing environment. The only real alien(s) is ?Nasedo/other survivors. Perhaps the person being pursued in the flashback at the beginning of SH. I don't have enough information about Nasedo. I am not convinced the orb made M/L or M/M do anything. If they are the products of systematic experimentation (genetic/molecular), then they may have been given false memories. On the other hand they may, in their neurons, each possess their own dynamic stream (and potential for viable powers/abilities)in the flow of the collective unconscious of their more than ancient "alien" ancestors, a civilization so long gone their possible immediate ancestors on nearer planets may have long forgotten their real origins. Given the older age of some galaxies relative to our own and the recent, cosmically speaking, development of life here on earth, an advanced civilizations may have set out from another galaxy. They eventually settled somewhere in our galaxy, and from them there has been an ongoing diaspora . Perhaps this is the reason Liz has flashes of an event in another galaxy. There is no question in my mind that Max' healing touch, and the power of their love, bonded them in some way. They may be descendants of been-here-so-long-they-are-no-longer-alien aliens. A character (I wont say who here, in case people are unspoiled about the novels) in one of the books wove a nice tale about their parents, Nasedo, etc., but may not be telling them the truth. BTW: A supernova event, in the constellation Taurus, was noted by the Anasazi (and the Chinese) on July 4, 1054. The event was recorded (glyphs) on a rock face in Chaco canyon (palm, spiral, sun, etc) . I can't find the link now. There is a red giant in Taurus (Aldeberan), and a hypothesized planet, with possible earth like conditions, in Taurus (HD 37124). I'll continue tomorrow. It's late, long night studying, I'm exhausted. ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-14-2000 10:34 AM Hello! Hope I didn't drive everyone away! (Helloooo echoes back from the the canyon Here are a few links (I hope this works) that I wanted to share. Supernova in Taurus (Crab Nebula) and an Anasazi petroglyph: http://www.chaco.com/park/archaeology/nebula.html I did not see the ep where Michael sees the constellation Aries, referring to it's April position as a referent. Someone on this or another thread mentioned they thought the constellation Taurus was prominent. Aries is important in legend and myth. Taurus is just southwest if you check a star map, with the Pleides in between. There are a lot of "v" shapes in that region. Note the picture links of California nebula, Hyades and Pleides on this link for the Taurus constellation: http://www.ne.jp/asahi/stellar/scenes/seiza_e/tau.htm Back later Rostafehrian LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-14-2000 11:36 AM 1. PEANUT-AND-ME: good point about the blood tests...though I suspect that this is another of the points that we are asked to "suspend our disbelief" on concerning the ROSWELL storyline. 2. SF: Great discussion concerning the pods. There is so much narrative possibilty here!!! DISCUSSION CONCERNING GENDER/BODIES: LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-14-2000 11:52 AM WHOOPS--PRESSED THE WRONG BAR... CONCERNING GENDER AND BODIES: At least one fanfic (Squanto's I believe) explored the possibility of Max's people as "energy beings" who were able to transform the pure energy of their essence into material shapes (i.e. human forms). While the books do not take that interpretive route, they do suggest that the aliens' bodies shift to accomodate climatic and social factors. Both of the above ideas seem to sidestep the issue of skeletal structures/internal organs [I mean--what's a little more molecular manipulation among aliens?]. In favor of Squanto's idea is that burst of light/engery we saw during the transformation scene. Are we seeing here glimpses into the shapeshifter's "essence" or what? ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-14-2000 12:37 PM LSS, you must be channelling my thoughts. I was going to address that in my next post. I wanted to bring up the concept of energy beings last night but I was so exhausted last night, I was nodding off , and I couldn't continue. This topic (ie, energy beings) has come up a lot in my Xfiles e-group . As you say, this concept sidesteps the issue of corporeal limitations. It also opens up a wondrous possibilities regarding time and space issues, allowing the potential of a journal through time and space (which would be hard to explain if they were going to make some choices) , the " universal "collective unconscious, the connectedness of the universe, time and being (sein und zeit), and spirituality (love, belonging, the grail, etc). I would associate the shapeshifting with the idea of energy beings, "immortals". As I mentioned in a post a few days ago, I thought the pod might have been the means of communication, the essence, the device that is or is related to a portal through time and space. This would definitely suggest energy beings. Healing power certainly dies. A part of this essence must have transferred to Liz. Perhaps adding something more than changing something? What do you think? It may matter less what they are than how they are perceived by the beholder. The mind connection is very significant don't you think? I decided that they are not going to adhere to the book story arcs (this may be the reason the books have been on hold??). I was hesitant in reading them because of the limitations and confusion I was experiencing relative to the series. It was difficult to reconcile. I can read the books now as an exercise. They are quite nice and simple and full of their own charm and wit I am very much into myth, and symbol: the archetype, psychoneurology. I love cosmology, too. The palm is one symbol of powerful beings. I hope the writers are bold enough to explore some of the possibilities. There are so many symbols (ie, the labyrinth) shared around the world in myth, legend that I hope they are going to tie this in. ROStaFEHRian. Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-14-2000 02:58 PM Thanks, ROStaFEHRian, for those linkes. Very interesting! I'm wondering now about the Balance episode. Sorry if this topic has already been disected ad nauseam--that episode aired before I joined this board. If M, M & I are really beings of light or energy, how does that tie in with Michael getting so very sick? And why did it take him so much longer than Nasedo to get sick? Level of maturity? Some difference in Nasedo's physiology? Whether or not these bodies are their true bodies doesn't seem to matter that much. From the evidence we have--Michael's life-threatening illness, Max's very biological drives with Liz, the bonk on the head that caused Max to lose consciousness--they are firmly entrenched, both physically and psychologically, in their current corporeal forms. Peanut-n-me (is that right?) said something about the aliens being essentially enhanced humans. I suspect that the writers are taking that approach. I hope we get an explanation as to their true nature in future episodes, but somehow I don't think we're going to get the kind of detail that we want. Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-14-2000 02:59 PM Just came back to this thread after several days, and it continues to be fascinating and full of wonderful, imaginative ideas for directions the show could go into (or not). Kate6058: I think your speculation about the orb being some kind of signal or beacon about a mating ritual (for lack of a less crude term) is a very good and credible one. And if you haven't been reading the spoilers, you must have ESP because it seems like the show might be going in that direction. ROStaFEHRian: Lots of great ideas about the aliens' origins. I too wondered if Max/Michael/Isabel could have been the products of some sort of government experiment in a human/alien hybrid. I put the idea aside because the point of the show so clearly pointed to them being humanoid aliens, a revered tradition in sci-fi movies and TV shows. But a renegade hybrid theory would explain their appearance, and would explain why MMI only seem to have consciousness of their lives from age 6 on, when perhaps the experiment went awry or was discovered and disrupted. This hasn't been adequately dealt with. Are we otherwise to believe they were six year old alien kids sent away from their planet in a state of suspended animation? That they were developing-but-suspended life forms meant to fully mature before being 'born' but who were suddenly sprun g at age 6 because of a malfunction or an accident? If so, why aren't they in their 50s, since the original Roswell crash is said to have taken place in '47? An obvious answer would be that they were products of an alien/human hybrid experiment, perhaps one concocted by a renegade government organization or individual (the individual perhaps being an alien trying in any way possible to save his race in some fashion). In that case the birthing 'error' for these particular kids (and maybe at least one other) may have occured in the early '80s, perhaps after decades of similar but failed experiments. Otherwise, the fact that these kids actually crashed on the earth sometime in the '80s without knowledge or supervision by the government doesn't seem very credible. And if they did actually crash in 1947 where the hell were they in the intervening 36 or so years? Of course these plot holes could just be marked up to human fallibility. The creative team on the show, smart and talented as they are, may not have thought these things completely through yet, and may just be throwing red herrings out right and left to see what seems to work best. Certainly a recent interview with Jason Behr quoted on the 'News' site made it seem like he was just as bewildered by a sudden love triangle in his storyline as any Dreamgirl would be. I would support the idea of this thread being sent to the creative team on "Roswell" (who I think would get a kick out of it) as well as to executives of the WB, who want the sci-fi angle of the show strengthened, and who may be pleased to see the broad base of demographic support this show potentially has. The more sources of support the show has, and the more varied those sources turn out to be, can only bode well for the future of the show. Perhaps Liz or Mandy could be enlisted for advice about how and who to send this to. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-14-2000 03:14 PM Elliot: Missed your insightful input--welcome back to this thread! Kate is working on a cover letter and is going to send the thread the cast/staff and WB executives (we've corresponded some on the letter's content). Any suggestions are appreciated. LSS Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-14-2000 03:21 PM Oh, and let's discuss the alien hickey from "Sexual Healing" some more . . . I think it provides more 'proof' that Max's intersession to save Liz's life has chemically or biologically changed her forever and perhaps bonded her to Max in a way that he was never intended to be linked, except to another of his species. But that the hickey existed at all suggests to me that something in her body was singing to, reaching out for something in his that was answering her. We understand this in human terms as love and sexual attraction. The alien component may be similar but more potent, powerful and dangerous (to Liz) while just as primal and urgent as our own sexual drives. Anyway, this is what I believe. There are other possible explanations: On a sexual level, the glowing visible sign of lust that rots and turns to a scab could be a warning, a kind of visible sign of sexual disease (like herpes). This might especially be true if Max somehow really broke the skin in his mad caresses instead of merely bruising or abrading her neck. Or more romantically, it might be a physical manifestation of their love as Liz suggests. She thinks it might have been a sign of their being apart. This is sweet, much like the rose that the Beast gives to Beauty when she leaves his realm. As the flower dies, so dies the Beast with every day his love chooses to part herself from him. This is unbearably poignant, but seems to me to be a simple projection on Liz's part, and we needn't think she is correct. After all, there can't have been much time elapsed from their makeout session in the eraser room to the torrid love-making in Michael's apartment. Clearly Liz was in heat and chose an 'explanation' that fitted her state of mind. It may just have been part of a healing process, a scab that harmlessly fell off later. Does anyone else see the irony that this episode, which has garnered the most far-reaching and imaginative sci-fi speculation thread of any to date, is based on one of the sex-dating-relationship episodes that seems doomed by the new emphasis on sci-fi by the WB? It's proof positive that this show has stuck a wonderful 'balance' between sci-fi and teen romance. This just occured to me -- instead of the hickey being a physical manifestation of making out -- something Max caused by kissing Liz's neck too hard -- could it be a physical sign that she was ovulating, that her body was receptive and that it was an optimum time for them to have sex? Maybe she was right when hours (or a day) later she showed up at Michael's apartment saying that it had scabbed over because they had been apart. Maybe it was too late for 'breeding' purposes? Sorry to be so clinical. But maybe this is something that happens to alien females? Which would be further proof that Liz has been biologically 'changed?' [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-14-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-14-2000 04:46 PM ON REVISITING THE HICKEY: Fascinating ideas Elliot. The least appealing is the hickey/STD idea, to be sure, but I really liked the notion of this being a sign of the "altered Liz". I think that one of the most intriguing ideas you raised is the hickey/ovulation connection. I'll have to think about that a bit. It certainly is in keeping with the "Liz in heat" imagery of the sexual frenzy and Max's obsession with Liz when they are in the same room (note how Liz's entrance into Michael's apt draws his immediate and undivided attention). ON THE IRONY OF SH: Yes--it is ironic that the most steamy of episodes evoked the conversation represented by this thread. I agree--Roswell can balance SF and romance and SH is proof of it! What a great and versatile show!!! SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-14-2000 07:13 PM Elliot, brilliant lateral thinking on the hickey indicating ovulation, and LSS your elaboration fits so perfectly with the idea, but I can't help thinking that that interpretation was never intended by the writers. LOL It's just way too edgy. LSS and ROStaFEHRian thanks for bringing up the whole energy being idea. Up until now I've been reluctant to embrace the idea as having potential for the back story, but when I look back on what we know so far, it might not be that out there. All the information we have about the aliens is very "new agey" and magical. Energy has to be channeled through crystals to get the balance right, Nasedo does cave painting, the orb looks like an oval riverstone that has a symbol chiseled into it. We're not talking high tech/gizmo kinda aliens here. ROStaFEHRian could be right on the money that it's all about symbolism. In The Balance, Michael cocooned himself when he almost died. A cocoon has connotations of metamorphosis - a metamorphosis from corporeal to energy being? A possibility. If we take the scenes of little boy Michael being helped out of a cocoon literally, then maybe the pods MM&I have been talking about aren't high tech gestation/incubation/growth chambers, but actually low tech cocoons. Just a protective external covering allowing the individual within to change. As usual, I have to speculate through my whole back story, so bear with me. It could go no where . To generalize: energy beings are usually portrayed as immortal and immortal beings are usually portrayed as sterile. A pretty standard SF device is for an immortal species to face a crisis (generally that they're actually mortal - poor babies :rolleyes and to survive, they have to reinvigorate the species, or, another pretty standard one is that they're bored out of their minds and are pretty much trouble makers getting up to all kinds of larks to make it through the infinity. There's no real reason that the '47 crash had anything to do with them since energy beings shouldn't need spaceships, but for arguments sake, the Roswell energy beings have space-flight problems or they're procrastinators (they have the time to waste), so they hitch a ride in the bodies of the four aliens that eventually crash at Roswell. Three of those aliens die on impact, and the energy beings inhabiting their bodies are liberated and they hatch a plan with their one corporeal buddy to gather data on humans and then metamorphosize into human children. Why? (A) They need to reinvigorate their species by breeding with a new species. (B) They want to have the full experience of a mortal life. (C) They're stuck here. Why not? Why would an energy being go through such pains to metamorphosize into the perfect likeness of a human, and then fail so miserably in being human? As y'all can tell, I'm finding it tough fitting energy beings into all aspects of the story that we have so far. They work great for some of it though. Just one comment on the physical alien body. As the audience we don't actually know that MM&I's blood or internal anatomy are different, we just know that they think they are. Isabel didn't want Max's blood taken, and he didn't want a CAT scan. The only "evidence" we have are Max's stained cheek cells from the pilot. I get the giggles every time I see it. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-14-2000 08:22 PM Elliott - Welcome back!! I hope you have time to catch up on all that you have missed. Your ideas are so great, I love it. In fact, my brain is such an overload of new spoiler information right now that I can't even reply to anything on here... I have too many ideas going through my head! I am going to work on the cover letter right now though, so I can send it out asap. I have started a new thread on the spoiler board, "The Science Fiction of the New Spoilers." I'd like to talk about this new stuff I just read on the crashdown (i.e. White Room... ohh I can't wait for all of this). Please, go here and read those spoilers: http://www.crashdown.com/spoilers then come over here and discuss: http://forums.fanforum.com/Forum6/HTML/001393.html We can carry out some of these ideas there further without worrying about spoiling it for people... and I'd like to have some convo that isn't just about Max/Liz/she who cannot be mentioned! LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-15-2000 12:06 AM Again--let me say--great job Kate. ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-15-2000 12:50 AM This thread keeps getting better, and better, and better and... (you get my point) Anyway, having read the spoilers, like the rest of you, my mind is beginning to put two and two together, but is getting five There are some things we can easily make solid connections to on one level, but that lead us to even MORE questions. As far as the whole energy being discussion, I like this idea to some degree because it would fit in with everything we have been given -- Like many of you have mentioned -- And seems very "appropriate" on a visual and visceral level for the show. On the one hand, I picture glowing, humanoid beings like in the film COCOON. However, some of you brought up the point of why would a being of this magnitude change into a physical being which is full of flaws and has the potential for seriously damaging the individual and the race as a whole? Hmmm... Then again, I like the idea of good old fashioned flesh and blood aliens like the ovoid (Gray and Green) aliens we have come to know from (ironically) popular culture and mythology surrounding UFOs. This appeals to me because it would more realistically address ideas of "transplants" if Max is part of a race who was searching for a new home world when theirs died out (The new world would have to be one that had similar environmental conditions which coincide with their biology). Perhaps these aliens are both, hence that is why we see Nasedo shapeshift and glow, but Max and the Pod Squad are more human than alien. This of course leads me to the issue of them being a genetic experiment by either the government and/or other aliens to create and test alien/human hybrids. Initially, I did not like this idea because it seems that, for all practical purposes, they succeeded with The Pod Squad. Now what? Don't get me wrong, I don't mean to oversimplify it, but as far as just uncovering who created them and why, there isn't really anywhere to go. At least not as much as if they are "true" full blooded aliens from outer space. But after thinking about it... This would be a braver and much more original way to go if the writers decided to reveal this because it HAS not really been done before to this degree and would still be interesting if it lead to bigger themes and more questions (which I am sure the writers would have no problem in providing ). I also want to kind of touch on something that has not been brought up here and on the spolier thread: HOW DO WE KNOW NASEDO IS ACTUALLY THE SAME KIND OF ALIEN AS MAX, MICHAEL, AND ISABEL? Nasedo could be a totally different speices of alien, thus that is why he can shapeshift and The Pod Squad can not. Anyone think of that, hmmm? Maybe he is observing our gang because he DID create them? Maybe he is only using Max and the others to further some nefarious plan? Anyway, I want to thank Rostefehrian for the real life Astronomy because anything that is based in reality in turn cements the science fiction aspect of the show and makes those elements more "real" if you get my drift. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-15-2000 05:39 AM ETAmerican: A few quick comments before classes: 1. WHY WOULD ALIENS CHANGE INTO A SHAPE WITH INHERENT FLAWS? Because, in spite of whatever physical limitations the human shape imposes, it has one great social advantage--camouflage. An impervious form that is easily recognized (and shot on sight) isn't much help at all. I think that is how the human form is explained in the books--the podsters emerge in human form because humans are at the top Earth's social ladder. 2. IS NESEDO THE SAME TYPE OF ALIEN AS OUR FAVORITE ALIENS? Good point. Someone (forgive me I can't remember who or I'd give them credit) remarked that there might be either two types of aliens (which might be n explanation as to why Nesedo can shapeshift using only tic-tacs [just kidding on that last point, they might be pills]but our aliens can't) or perhaps two different social classes of aliens (workers/slaves and others). If the latter is the case then it is anyone's guess as to what the relationship is between our trio and Nesedo. peanut_and_me Member Posts: 119 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-15-2000 07:10 AM I have to admit, I wish I had special powers that could turn back time because I just read through the spoilers and I am so disgusted, I could puke (or it could just be my morning sickness).... but I am so disappointed. Now I con't post here knowing what I read has tainted my views. WHY WHY DID I DO IT!!!???? LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-15-2000 08:24 AM peanut-and-me: Okay--you can do one of two things--you can do the "talk around the spoiler" dance that Kate and I did before (it is an intellectual challenge, believe me) or you can go to Kate's thread on the spoiler board and speculate/comment all you want. One way or another, keep your comments coming!!! Kind of related to the idea of changing existing circumstances (though not by time travel), have you read any of the alternative universe fanfics that play with this concept? What if Max had not been in the cafe...What if L/M/A were the aliens...etc. What fun. LSS Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-15-2000 08:27 AM peanut - You're disgusted? I'm excited! Go over to this thread: http://forums.fanforum.com/Forum6/HTML/001393.html and discuss with us! On another note... I am having problems printing the thread. The text is not showing up on the printer I am using... I will try it at my home computer later and see what's going on. ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-15-2000 09:32 AM I just wanted to address a few points: 1) Re: Nasedo being a different social class or whatever... Good thinking. Although, I think that M/I/M are not slaves -- I would at least hope not -- Because that just seems to improbabble at this point and would kind of "cheapen" everything that has happened up until now IMHO. In other words, Nasedo -- Or other aliens/people -- May or may not be controlling them. Re: Energy beings choosing human form... Good point about camoflauge (this was obvious), but I was speaking in a more general sense as if they had NOT come to Earth. But I do see the logic. Re: Why this thread won't print... Because the background of this thread is BLACK (eventhough the letters are white). What you have to do is save this page, use Notepad, go in and change the BACKGROUND COLOR to white or something lighter. The printers "sees" everything in black and white (even a color printer) when it is getting the info. from your PC. This is why it is not printing the text -- It thinks the background is one big block of text. Also, the fact that Fan Forum pages are made up HTML that is made "on the fly" via CGI scripting may also have something to do with it, but don't quote me on that Hope that helps. Keep this thread going. It rocks! ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-15-2000 09:35 AM (Deleted Double Post) [This message has been edited by ETAmerican (edited 03-16-2000).] Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-15-2000 01:00 PM Just bumping us... we fell off the page again. ET, thanks for that printer advice... I'll try again. Faith Evans Junior Member Posts: 11 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-15-2000 10:06 PM Just bumping this up... ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-16-2000 10:22 AM Hellooooo! Anyone here? I was catching up and re-reading posts since I haven't been here a couple of days. SF - LOL! What a scream! "...low tech cocoon..." "...procrastinators..." "...troublemakers getting up to all kinds of larks to make it through infinity." I love it! Anyway. I think perhaps that after an eternity of and/or time travel, the Travellers (I'll call them Travellers; I have issues with the term alien, particularly if they have been on this planet since..well..who knows when?) ended up on earth voluntarily or inadvertently. Even if they were recent arrivals or (failed departees), they probably could only leave so much of their "essence" with possible hybrids. In other words, they lose when they choose/chose corporeal existence. However, we don't know enough to determine if, indeed, anyone had any real choices other than to survive. And the desire to survive, or see ofspring survive, can force choices that, while meant to be pure or benign in intent, may not have so or benign implication (ie, the ethics of breeding, genetic interference if we accept this as one hypothesis). However MMI came to be, they have some limitations associated with their bodies, but (Intended? Unexpected? Evolved naturally?) they have some of the benefits of energy beings, but are not pure energy beings and in variable quantities. That would explain why each has variations of their powers. This would go along with your difficulty reconciling the energy being concept to all aspects of the story arc. That mgiht be easier of we only except that MMI (and any other flounders like Nasedo) only retain a small part of their birthright, and have, instead, inherited most of the failings/limitations of corporeal existence. They are just..more human than human. Leneba, I agree with how you put it: they are firmly entrenched in their human forms, physically and psychologically. The longer they are in human form, the more entrenched. Perhaps that is why Nasedo and any others of his kind retain certain abilities: they don;t stay in one form long enough. I also agree with you, however, that we most likely will not get the kind of detail we want I sill maintain Michael was conceived differently. And for a purpose. The cocoon is a symbol of change and metamorphosis, as you noted, SF. The labyrinth that Michael walks over on the desert ground is also a universal symbol of emergence(ie, spiritual)/metamorphosis (Crete, Inca, Ancient Americans, Mesopotamia, Greek, Chartres cathedral; I can list some links over the weekend if anyone is interested). And SF, I totally agree about your very insightful comment that all we know is that MMI THINK they are so different. They are very hard on themselves, but that is all they know. I don't like the cheek cell scene much. I just ignore it I have been working on a fan fic with a plot device that pits this perception against reality. I love the hickey/ovulation idea (was that you Elliot?). I think it may be a problem also, as someone said, I think, just with separation. I sense the biological imperative concept that many have put forth as figuring very strongly. I am still intrigued, as I was when I read the transcript, with River Dog's comment to Liz. To paraphrase: make sure he is worth of your trust. Does that strike anyone else as inverted? What does RD know about a hidden potential in Max? I don't think Max is pure (not yet) ; just very special at this stage. I do believe he is the grail knight but he has not gone through the trials and temptations. He can't interpret the symbols. He can't formulate the right question yet. Asking where am I from, etc, are "selfish" questions and will not reveal TRUTH to him unless he fulfills an unselfish task/sacrifices or asks the unselfish questions. That goes for all the questors and their beloved s. Michael will fail until he can overcome his self-centered needs/passions. If this follows the mythical framework, they all will be sorely tried and tempted to go astray. Have to run now and get the train home. All you'uns who have gone to the spoiler board and left we'uns behind to fall off the front page, don't forget us while you're getting fat on the spoilers You don't have to being the meat, but maybe we could still gnaw the bones here. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-16-2000 11:31 AM Rostafehrian: I have to go to a meeting--but will get back to your comments later. I just wanted to say, however, that your analysis of Max/quest/grail was nothing short of brilliant!!! [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-17-2000).] Rain Member Posts: 61 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-16-2000 03:41 PM Hi everyone! I am new here - I love this thread! A few things I wanted to share: 1: RED GIANT Although I'm a science major, it certainly isn't astronomy! But I thought that it was really cheesy how the science teacher told Liz: "The problem is, the light from a red giant is weak...so weak we usually can't pick it up with our telescopes." I think the writers may have intended that the alien's home planet is undetectable because we can't see it. They don't realize that stuff in space does not have to be "seen" to be detected. Scientists use all parts of the electromagnetic spectrum, including Infra Red, UV, X-rays, gamma rays, and (of course) radio waves to analyse stuff like the distance away, the temperature, and composition. They can even detect black holes, which sucks in everything except a tiny amount of xrays. However, scientists have only analysed only a fraction of the sky. I think that this would have been a better excuse to use, instead of "we just can't see it". Ok, ok - maybe I am getting picky! 2. WHIRLWIND GALAXY There is no real "whirlwind galaxy" that I know of, but they might have gotten the idea from the real Spiral Galaxy M51 aka NCG5194 aka the "WhirlPOOL" galaxy. Thanks for listening to my ramblings -Rain Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-16-2000 04:34 PM ROSTa--please list those labrynth related links when you have time. I'm very interested. I agree with the idea of Michael being different in some essential, intrinsic way from Max and Isabel. After being a naughty girl and reading the spoilers, I have a theory as to why that is. Since I'm not skilled at dancing around them, I'm gonna have to stop here. Something that occurred to me after watching last night's episode (River Dog)-- I wonder if the necklace is more than simply a necklace? It could be some sort of amulet or beacon. Perhaps Nasedo was aware when one of them touched it, causing him to send a message (the beacon in the woods) to them. Doesn't it seem like a strange coincidence that just when the trio start taking proactive steps to learn about their history, Nasedo starts looking for them? The other part that I wonder about is the fact that it is broken. I suppose you could say that the break symbolizes their broken history. River Dog has the missing piece. He just doesn't have the ability to make it whole. Which brings up yet another question. How did River Dog get that fragment? The necklace belonged to Atherton. He couldn't have been wearing it the day he died because Isabel found it in that secret room of his. If Atherton broke it himself (aren't alien-made objects universally impervious to casually inflicted trauma?) and believed that an alien had given it to him, surely he would have kept the fragment with the necklace in a safe place. I suppose you could argue that Atherton HAD been wearing it the day he died and Nasedo simply hid it in the secret room, but that just doesn't make sense. If it had any value to him, I think Nasedo would have simply kept it. Last question. Why didn't Max or Isable use their powers to fix the necklace once they had the piece that Eddie brought? We see it still broken towards the end of the episode, and it seems to me that when we see it in a later episode (though I can't think which one)it is still missing that piece. Phew! What a relief. I was afraid that I had ruined this great thread for myself by reading the spoilers. ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-16-2000 07:36 PM LSS- thank you for your comment. It means a lot. I love doing these grail/myth comparisons but I can't take full credit. I have posted with some wonderful and challenging posters in my X-Files e-group and we keep each other on our toes and in the bookstores and library. The ideas are universal and I have had good exercise at it. Kept me from my schoolwork many times. I'm having the same experience here; you and many others (Elliot, SF, Leneba, and others) are quite challenging. I very much look forward to hearing from you when you have time. Rain- welcome. I'm still new here myself. Thank you for taking the time to research the astronomy and post your findings. I, and I am sure many others, appreciate the information. Keep reading and posting. Sounds like you have a lot to contribute. Leneba, I'll get back to you on your post. I have been up since 4:30a because I had to catch an early train. I am almost incoherent. Very good pick-up about the pendant. Off the top of my head, in mythology, the broken stone (or broken sword in some grail myths) means a symbol of concealed "divinity" within a human (or alien being if you will) was broken through misuse or false application (violence, treachery, evil or selfish deed) and no longer is capable of performing it's function in the service or interests of humanity. At least not until the true knight has grained knowledge, wisdom, and purity to restore/receive the power. In plain speak, it was not used for it's true (and usually beneficial) purpose by the rightful or un-rightful (Nasedo??) owner. Good night, ROSta ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-16-2000 10:36 PM Lenaba: Good call about the pendanat. It is one of those things that can easily be lost in the whole scheme of things because it is such a tiny element, physically, but symbolically, it means a lot more as RosteFherian mentioned in terms of grail/lore and myth. I wonder if when you put the orb, the pendant and the "other item" (go to the spolier thread and I think you know what I mean) together that they unlock the key to The Pod Squads existence? That would be cool on both a physical level (maybe these items put together give the owner or owners absolute power or hidden knowledge), and on a symbolic level (it represents unity in that alone they mean nothing, but brought together they work toward a goal -- be it positive or negative). Any thoughts? [This message has been edited by ETAmerican (edited 03-16-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-17-2000 06:55 AM Finally got some time to read through this page again. What a great group of Sci-Fi enthusiasts! Since I won't see the Riverdog episode until tonight (missed it the first time around), I'll have to wait to comment on the pendant observations. But I did want to get back to ROSTaFEHRian's identification of Roswell's key structure as "quest". Surrounded by their comrades/companions (Liz, Maria, Alex) it may be that our alien trio represent different aspects of the eternal hero. The noble leader, of course, is Max. I really liked your observation that Max has potential that is as yet untested and has to be honed in the fires of adversity (and believe me--as those of you who are spoiler tainted know--he's going to get a chance to do some growing soon). The passionate poet/artist/warrior is Michael. And again, I liked what you said about Michael--having to lift himself above his self-centered needs and passions--especially the latter. Michael's anger and fears redirect his focus. When his passions are channeled towards creativity, he excells. But Michael's problem is control and discipline. However, you didn't mention Isabell--the last person in the questing triad. I would be interested in seeing how you view her. Her characterization thus far leans more toward the eternal mother/sorceress than the warrior/maiden--but it is usually warrior/maidens who quest. What do you think? [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-17-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-17-2000).] Roswell The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions (Page 5) This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-17-2000 07:06 AM By the way I noticed some typos in my last post (sigh--not the first time). Is there anyway to edit posts once they are on the board? LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-17-2000 07:45 AM Was just reading a fanfic in which the author made an observation that I had never considered. SIX communication crystals = 3 aliens + 3 humans ???? I thought it a bit odd that I'd never really attached any significance to it (and perhaps there is none). But the author assumed for the fanfic plot that this meant the six were "fated". But what if it means there are 3 more aliens out there for this unit? I'm still not sure this is anything more than an extraneous detail--but hey...speculation is what we do on this thread! Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-17-2000 08:48 AM Yes. Check out the grey 'posted' info just above your posting after it appears. To the right of that are a series of icons. Click on the one that includes a pencil, and your posting will come up in a box just as you wrote it. You can make changes and repost. The bottom of your post will then contain a message that you edited the post on such and such a date at such and such a time. I sometimes correct spelling errors but only when I'm afraid someone thinks I really think something was spelled that badly! I've learned to let others go. The bad thing is that you can't correct spelling errors in the title of a topic when you originate one. I did one on the lack of an aggressive advertising campaign for 'Roswell' on the part of the WB and I misspelled aggressive with only one 'g,' and couldn't correct it. I was mortified because the posting stayed up for days and even came back periodically! LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-17-2000 08:59 AM Elliot--thanks ever so much!!! Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-17-2000 09:47 AM I must join LSS in praising ROStaFEHRian to the skies for an incredibly perceptive reading of the Max and Michael personas as regards to classic 'journey' or 'questing' myths. Yes! Yes! And yes! Again, having read the spoilers I feel sure that the producers/script writers are well aware of all this and have plotted the characters fates like this from the beginning. Max will indeed be tested on every front: In love, in loyalty, in courage, in wisdom. As I posted elsewhere, this season has been about the emotional growth and maturation of Max, and Jason Behr has done a great job of advancing him slowly through each new phase. And Michael is certainly consumed with childish and selfish concerns, though they are legitimate and poignant ones. But he can't ever see the forest for the trees, and he is a hothead. This gives him the potential to become twisted, evil, and to become a real adversary to Max. If this happens (and it would be a promising idea that could play out all next season) my guess is that Nasedo and maybe even River Dog would be behind it. Unlike most on the Crashdown message board, I see no reason to accept River Dog as the benevolent figure he seems to be. He may have motives of his own or simply be foolish and deluded. He could do more harm than good no matter what his intentions. Despite the possibility of Michael 'going bad,' I think the love of a good woman (Maria) will have much to do with guiding him properly. As to Isabel, well if one reads spoilers (and I do, I do!) she seems to be heading toward a kind of virgin Madonna role, which is bizarre. Kathy Heigl is as blonde and lovely as any fairy tale princess. But Isabel is in fact a mall princess, as spoiled and demanding as any Valley Girl. The show has underused her, and at first I thought it might be because of the actress's limitations. But she was very good in 'Toy House,' and the fact that Isabel hasn't been developed further this season is a disappointment. She is a bit of a cypher and at this point could develop into anything or nothing, it seems to me. But her strong attachment to her mother and her own potential nurturing status tie her to the primal earth mother role, as LSS suggests. LSS's questing female seems to me to be Liz. She will be motivated by her own intelligence and curiosity (as a budding scientist), her over-powering love for Max (who will be sorely tested and tormented) and (perhaps more crucially but completely speculatively on my part) the fact that the destiny of the aliens may in fact be her own because Max has biologically 'changed' her through his intervention to save her life. She is the Dorothy who will galvanize and shake up everyone in Oz, the simple true girl who will know in her bones what is right and what has to be done. Max can't do without her, and he in fact needs her much more than she needs him, though he doesn't know it yet. We'll see. By the way I just reread SF's comments of 3/13 about the possibility of our alien teens having been somehow created with the help of Hubble's dead wife (via her pregnancy?) A brilliant and provocative idea, SF. [This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 03-17-2000).] provence Member Posts: 796 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-17-2000 12:06 PM Great posts! I am so impressed with your insight and knowledge. It's been such a pleasure reading this thread. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-17-2000 12:11 PM Elliott - Great post. I want to touch base again on the idea of Liz being changed. We talked about this a while ago, and I thought it was her body's connection with Max that cause all of her feelings of "chemical changes" and the fever, and maybe even the hickey. I just want to discuss this again and see what people think. In one of the fanfics where Liz is carrying Max's child, she develops a craving for Tabasco on everything and even gets some healing powers of her own. Maybe these kind of changes come along when the aliens actually want their feelings to spread. I don't think all of this is unconciously done... Max must want to let her in for this to work. But then, what if this is just a step in the process of creating alien/human hybrids? I don't want to think of it that way... Seeing Max as a leader, I could guess that maybe he is the first of his kind to actually cause this kind of change in a human. Though he is extremely reserved, he's so overwhelmed by these feelings that he's willing to make changes to everything known by their race in order to love Liz Parker. Maybe there were alien-human relationships in the past, or maybe they were put on earth to try to procreate hybrids, but I bet Max has gone against the plans of actually getting feelings involved. I think Max has been the most daring by swaying the farthest from his alien roots. We all know that he would be completely satisfied to move off with Liz somewhere and lead a normal life... Leneba Member Posts: 169 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-17-2000 12:32 PM I too have been thinking about the theory regarding Liz being changed by Max. I wonder if the handprint played a part. The handprint is described as 'fading', but maybe it was actually absorbed. If only intense physical and emotional investment produce the handprints, then the instances in which a human would be changed or attuned by an alien would be few. We've seen other examples of healing that left no mark. A problem with my idea arises when we think of all of those dead people with handprints on them. My solutions include: 1) They're dead, so any change is irrelevant. 2) When Nasedo (or whomever) killed them, only an expediture of phyisical energy occured. No emotional investment = no alteration. 3) This is something unique to Max. 4) Max was using his power to heal. His selfless use of 'good' powers and his love of Liz allowed him to make a particularly intense, intimate and life-changing bond with her. Nasedo's selfish, destructive, 'evil' use of his powers denies him the privilege of connecting in such a way with others. Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-17-2000 01:23 PM I think Kate and Laneba make good observations about Max. I think it's true that he broke an essential 'law' (unwritten but probably instinctively understood by the aliens) when he tampered with human life. Of course we know that Nasedo has done the same, but as a bringer of death, not life. It's important to note that Max did not have the detachment to let Liz die. He has too much heart, is too 'human' in fact. Though in some ways a typical surly male, he is a nurturer. And this comes through (another reason so many women here adore Max/Jason. That candid behind-scenes shot of Jason kissing Shiri's forehead on the set launched a thousand ahhhhs). Apart from his years-long crush on her, he was too decent to let her die. This is the beauty and the conflict of his life. He reversed fate and destiny at least once before when he healed a wounded bird. Max is a sweetheart. Nasedo isn't. The eventual clash is inevitable. Bookish Member Posts: 170 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-17-2000 01:40 PM I have this monstrous pile of journal articles cluttering up my study floor which I've been poring over in order to code for a quantitative analysis...and mere words cannot express just how tedious this is, especially to be pulling almost all-nighters during spring break. I thought I'd give you all that context in order to express just how much I look forward to reading this thread. I've been using it to "reward" myself after working (or before in this case). So many of you have such eloquent posts brimming with observations that in many cases are so totally different from my own, that it's almost like looking at a painting all over again. And I appreciate the multitude of perspectives. Upon reading some of the above posts speculating as to the nature of the orb, a thought struck me. We've been pondering whether the orb relates to the mating process of the aliens, but could it just be a simpler (perhabs more sinister) explanation? If Max and Liz being together obstructs a master plan that Nasedo has, wouldn't activating the orb be the perfect way to create trouble in paradise? First, Max has all along stressed how dangerous becoming involved with Liz could be, and yet here we have both of them, unable to stay away from each other, and behaving in ways that can only call attention to their relationship. Second, the orb itself could serve as a reminder to both that Max is "the other" and once again raise that whispering doubt "we don't belong together". Above someone suggested that they by now should be familiar with their bodies, yet in the books Max explains they weren't really sure they were different until they started having abilities that no one else had. They were completely powerless to help Michael when he was sick, Max even speculated that this could be reflective of a limited life cycle. I think the whole experience of overwhelming passion in SH could have served as an extremely powerful method of underscoring just how "different" Max and Liz are from one another. Third, getting caught in the eraser room (skipping two(?) classes), ditching gym class (if Liz is a straight-A student why is that teacher such a hag?), staying out all night certainly raised the spector that their parents (at least their mothers) would possibly intervene to ban them from spending time together. Fourth, Liz's fears about being used in the quest for El Dorado also point to the possibility that the orb may have been Nasedo's way of keeping them apart. Fifth, and I'm really pushing the envelope here, if the spoilers are correct (going to be vague here), and certain individuals get all hot and bothered around unexpected others, could the orb serve as a way of almost diminishing Max's attraction for Liz? He feels so special when he's with her and yet...could he feel that same powerful urge if another alien walks by? That smirk on Nasedo's face could have been, "let me show you something special. Then let me take it away..." Both Max and Liz (but Liz especially) have been characterized as control freaks. Having this fever in the blood (I really liked the "in heat" observation--it made me have to toss all my "no they wouldn't go that far" arguments out the window) and not feeling they were in control their behavior should certainly raise the stress levels of both characters once the afterglow wears off. If this is true, I'd also add that Max and Liz are smart enough to figure out they've been manipulated (and by whom), and act accordingly. And seeing the way Max is so protective of Liz his reaction would certainly be powerful (I'd hate to be Nasedo). Ok, I've babbled enough. Back to the grindstone. I'll try to check in later. Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-17-2000 02:20 PM Bookish: We are so on the same wavelength, it's scary. Just yesterday I was thinking that this primal urge to mate at age 16 was really very primitive, and it occurred to me that our early ancestors generally reached puberty later than we do, but probably mated and began having children immediately because lifespans were short. This made me wonder suddenly if the lifespan of the aliens could be a short one. But also on the 'Science' thread posted on the Spoilers board I just made the same observation that you did about Max and Liz. I think Nasedo's whole plan is to sever the young aliens from all their human ties. This was easy in the case of Michael, who already was at odds with his father. And Hank was a drifter who was easily disposed of. A much more difficult problem will be to separate Max from Liz, and Max and Isabel from their parents. Regarding a 'plot' to separate Max from Liz, I think what you say is very likely. A reasonable scenario would find Max and Liz's furious parents grounding them and forbidding them to socialize without supervision. If Nasedo was pleased to see them together, it might be because he knew it would bring a firestorm down on them once the love affair was so very public. It will also cause them to be heavily scrutinized at school, where everyone will have heard the story (and will know their mothers were earlier called in because of their noisey lovemaking in the eraser room -- a very erotic and grownup detail, by the way), so our young lovers may be forced to cool their ardor. I think we could be on to something here . . . JanetMG Member Posts: 144 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-17-2000 04:49 PM Still a great thread, everyone. Just a couple of comments/thoughts. I think we have seen some evidence of the warrior/maiden in Isabel-her interaction with Hank in Independence Day & her willingness to stand up to Max in the Toy House. She also came up with the plan when Valenti was about to discover Michael in his office and took charge when she found out that Michael "abducted" Maria. I haven't the spoilers so I don't know if it will go any further. Also, the discussion about quests and "unwritten rules" reminded me of two things I found intriguing in the pilot which I wish they'd explore briefly. Warning--they're more fantasy/philosophical issues than sci fi, so hardcore sci fi folks may want to skip the next two paragraphs. (Of course, even those who like fantasy/philosophical issues might find them boring as well.) First, MM&I have mentioned things, including Max getting involved with Liz, being "against the rules." I've been curious about what the rules are. In most fantasy stories, the protagonist usually faces some moral or ethical dilemmas about the use of his/her powers. Usually, there's some kind of do-the-ends-justify-the-means question involved. I assume that the "rules" MM&I mentioned contain some limits based on their understanding of the ethics of using their powers. Of course, they may have been simply geared toward evading detection, but that's a little simplistic given their intelligence. I think it would interesting to see where they came out, particularly when the usual type of "ends" were missing. There's no evil, specific or vague, that they're trying to defeat at this point. Further, at the time the rules were agreed upon, it doesn't seem like the quest for knowledge of their background was very viable. What limits did they prescribe when they were facing everyday life on earth? The only direct glimpse of this issue I've seen was Max's refusal to play God by healing Liz's grandmother (even though he arguably did when he healed Liz). In the Whedon tradition of BYOS (Bring your own subtext), I also caught a glimpse in Sexual Healing when Michael & Isabel dropped their "don't get involved" stance toward Liz & urged Max to "go for it." They apparently thought the knowledge they might gain outweighed whatever their concerns were when they made the rule. (More BYOS--Seeing River Dog again, I find it interesting that Max seemed to indicate that it would be okay for Nacedo to kill Atherton if Atherton was a UFO nut trying to expose him when Max himself didn't kill Hubble when that particular UFO nut was trying to kill him.) Second, while some of the special powers have seemed neat, I've always been more envious of the sense of purpose held by most protagonists in fantasy stories. Unlike most fantasies or quests, MM&I were not given an overarching purpose (or "end")at the beginning of the show. (Frankly, even now it's not clear to me that the search for knowledge, which has developed, definitely will lead to a life's purpose.) Buffy may not always like the pre-destined feel of it, but she knows what she should be using her talents and powers for. Other protagonists have prophecies to fulfill, evil beings to defeat, etc. and once they've "won" they move on to some other battle or become a ruler, etc. MM&I don't have this kind of purpose (yet). I'd like to see their struggle with the universal question of what a person should be using their talents and abilities to accomplish. I thought Topolsky's profiles were interesting (assuming they were being truthful with her) because it looked like Max wasn't even letting himself think about the future, while Isabel was planning hers around her more "human" attributes. I've kind of assumed that Michael was so busy trying to survive and escape his home life that he hadn't struggled with the issue yet (sort of a "First, get out of Roswell. Then, I'll worry about what I want to do with my life." attitude). I know Max talked some about not wanting to hide the rest of his life, but did he have something in mind that made "good use" of his powers or was he simply sick of hiding? Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-17-2000 07:52 PM Elliott - I think I agree with you. Nasedo's whole plan is to sever the aliens' ties with the humans. Yes... it's likely that he's working through others to indirectly place obstacles between them. But... I agree with Bookish that Max and Liz are too smart to not figure out that they are being manipulated. This is why I have been so calm about She Who Cannot Be Mentioned... Liz isn't stupid or weak; she's not going to run away like a baby. Max isn't an idiot either; he's not going to let his life be controlled in any way. I really doubt that this will run the course of a soap opera plotline where people stand back like they are completely clueless and let outrageous things happen to their friends and families (like clones and kidnappings and fake deaths and someone's sister marrying her boyfriend...lol) when they know a way to prevent it the whole time. These characters are way too strong to go down without a fight. As for the mating age... maybe something on Earth slowed down their development and it was originally set up for them to have hatched very soon after the crash. In that case, they'd be in their 50's (the orb's "alarm" setting hasn't changed any), and their puberty would be starting VERY late... so maybe they really have double the lifespan of humans? Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-18-2000 10:04 AM bump Bookish Member Posts: 170 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-18-2000 11:00 AM Elliott, if I remember correctly, you check the board from work, so I'll save the majority of my comments till Monday. I'm glad to know that I'm not out in left field on the "plot" scenario, I was afraid I was thinking a bit too morbidly. The thing that gets to me about that scenario is the almost 1984-ish angle on the meaning of sex. If Nasedo plans on breaking them up, yeah the parents angle is a good one to play. But if it could be arranged that certain individuals feel certain overpowering urges *regardless* of the "target", it would serve to attack the meaning of the aliens' relationships with their human counterparts. The idea of making love with that special someone, changes to, being around at the right time. It's almost like, "ok, I'm going to give you your dream...put you with the one you love, and still show you that it doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things..." And that strikes me as pretty twisted. JanetMG: I've been known to ramble about "the rules" in past posts. In a way the series reminds me of "Lord of the Flies", a book I vaguely remember reading in high school, about a group on English adolescents stranded on an island (without adults) who create their own social order/government. Of course all goes to heck shortly thereafter. And Roswell in some ways reminds me of this book combined with stuff I know about feral children. Like children left off in the child to mature alone, these aliens have created their own covenant of sorts. The problem they've run into is that while they've followed these "rules" and self-policed all these years, know as they're growing up they've run into situations that the "rules" don't cover. I think the ironic thing about their profiles with Topolsky is that they represented paradoxes of a sort. If they follow "the rules" then all would end up single, probably taking care of their parents. While one sibling can probably do that without causing too much notice in our "if you aren't married with kids there's something tragic about your life--culture", but two? Kate6058: do you think they've hit puberty, or do you think that somehow the orb started all of this? They seem pretty developed to me. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-18-2000 02:22 PM Bookish - The puberty thing... if I'm right about the orb being a signal for their sexual awakening, then all of that is on the alien life path. It's like they have two developmental layers... the human one and the alien one. The human one has developed and they hit puberty normally like other teenagers do, but the alien one is still waiting for it (here could be two possiblities: they were supposed to come out of the pods when they did and this is the age the "puberty" was supposed to happen, so they would have a lifespan similar to humans', or they were supposed to hatch in 1947 and the orb would have gone off now, when they were in their 50's, and their lifespan would be double humans'. But neither of those theories really matter when it comes to this storyline). Lord of the Flies... oh my. What a comparison. If you really wanted to get into it with that, you could compare Max to Ralph (the good leader) and Nasedo to Jack (the really evil one who ended up taking over) and there's so much symbolism there that I can't even begin to get into it or I'll ramble for a few pages. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-18-2000 03:27 PM ON MICHAEL AND THE DARK SIDE. Elliot--very nicely done in your analysis of Michael. In looking back over the episodes, I think the writers are laying the foundation for exactly what you are talking about. In Riverdog, Micahel complains of "being a pawn" and is envious of Max going on what was Michael's own vision quest. These references coupled with the various other episodes where Max and Michael stand at odds with each other (i.e. 285 South and Max having to clean up Micahel's "messes"; SH and Max's implied criticism of Michael's use of Maria), really do show his vulnerability to the "dark side". I hadn't thought of it quite like that. Well done! If Michael finds Nesedo (see I'm being good and spoiler free here) then the combination of Nesedo and Michael could be hazardous, not only to Michael, but to all of our gang's health! Elliot, I also liked your anaylsis of Liz. At first I was not persuaded--but having watched Riverdog I can clearly see where you are coming from. I wish they had keep that strong assertive characterization of Liz in all of the later episodes. If Liz has been "altered" then it makes sense for her to participate in the quest in something other that the role of comrade/companion. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-19-2000 01:41 PM just bumping again... and if you guys didn't know, our counterpart over at the spoiler board has disappeared into thin air... LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-19-2000 07:32 PM Just a note to say that Kate has managed to cut and paste some of the SF/spoiler page back together now. Good work Kate! SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-19-2000 08:12 PM I've really been enjoying the thread. We're getting some great ideas. It's been a while since I posted, so here's a really long hodge podge of different things that struck me. I wanted to get back to the whole energy being idea. We don't all seem to have a similar concept of what an energy being is. I've always worked off the assumption that they're made up electromagnetic radiation. They can choose the spectral range they appear in (gamma ray, x-ray, UV, visible light, IR, microwave, radio), and have both wavelike and particulate properties. These beings could travel at the speed of light, and they control whether they're visible or invisible, so there wouldn't be any need for camouflage. How you retain your self identity when you're structureless is yet another mind game? I agree with ROStaFEHRian that they would lose a lot of their energy being-ness when they became corporeal. I'd be interested in y'all's take on energy beings. ETAmerican's comment that he thought of the glowing aliens in COCOON helped, but I'd say they were glowing corporeal beings. I'd like to carry my whole metamorphosis analogy one step further. If the pods are indeed cocoons and the three young aliens came out of them, then we could have energy beings metamorphosizing into corporeal beings. But what if the alien life cycle is complex and multi-staged? What if the energy beings are the apex of the life cycle, but they're not immortal and they have to cycle back to the start of the life cycle at a given point? A reincarnation idea. Which could mean MMI are at a larval phase, after their next metamorphosis they could be like Nasedo, who after his next metamorphosis could be an energy being. That would explain Nasedo being so different to them. I'm struck by the fact that almost universally Nasedo is perceived as evil. Aren't we anthropomorphising here? He's been keeping a low profile for 50 years. His experiences with humans haven't gone too well. He could have created MMI (genetically engineered, made human alien hybrids) so that he had people of his own to ineract with. I really liked ROStaFEHRian's comment that "the desire to survive, or see offspring survive, can force choices that, while meant to be pure or benign in intent, may not have so pure or benign an implication." So what Nasedo wants for MMI may not be that evil, it just doesn't fit with what we want for them. Obviously Nasedo doesn't think too highly of humans, but his torturing of Hank takes his disregard for human life that one step further. Lenaba, good point on the broken necklace. Yeah, it did show up in a later episode, and it was still broken. I've assumed Riverdog still has the broken piece. ETAmerican, I'm with you, the pendant could be the key to the Orb (it has the same symbol on it), but it's going to have to be made whole before it will work. Lenaba made a good point about why didn't Nasedo fix it. Maybe he can't, maybe it takes a chosen one to fix it. This could explain why he was happy to see the orb in Max's keeping, 'cause he's the one who can unlock it's secrets. That would fit into the whole grail/quest idea. Max can't yet fix the pendant, but he will be able to one day... Lenaba, I thought the same thing on the hand print being absorbed. Take a look at my post on 3/11. I think its a question of scale whether healing leaves a handprint or not. When Max healed Micahel's eye, or Liz's nasty hicky, that's just a surface change. When he healed Liz, he had to repair internal organs, and dissolve the bullet. There's a lot of localized energy at the damage point (leaving the hand print), and at the same time he made a psychic connection to Liz. Making the psychic connection alone doesn't require the type of energy that leaves a handprint (e.g., Liz and her grandmother). Nasedo's handprints are just the same as Max's (same mechanism), but he causes internal damage. It would also make sense that he makes a psychic connection with his victims, this would allow him to impersonate them flawlessly when/if he shapeshifts into their external morphology. The location of Nasedo's handprints have me floored. If it were over the heart it would make more sense. He could kill his victims with a massive blood clot. Maybe he collapses the trachea, and they die of asphyxiation. It would be interesting if we got to hear about some of the autopsy reports, my guess is that barring the handprint, all the deaths look like natural causes. LSS are there six crystals, or are there only 5? In the balance, we only see 5, and I didn't count them in ID. To add to your and Elliot's ideas that Michael might go to the dark side, he's the one who's already convinced Nasedo is his father. He's so desperate to find his family that he's not likely to be too critical if he finds him. SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-19-2000 08:26 PM quote: Originally posted by Leneba: I'm wondering now about the Balance episode. Sorry if this topic has already been disected ad nauseam--that episode aired before I joined this board. If M, M & I are really beings of light or energy, how does that tie in with Michael getting so very sick? And why did it take him so much longer than Nasedo to get sick? Level of maturity? Some difference in Nasedo's physiology? Lenaba, I can't come up with anything satisfactory to tie in energy being with Michael's sickness in the balance. But I've always thought that his taking longer to get sick than Nasedo tied in really well to the alien hybrid theory. Somehow there's been a dilution in alien-ness, hence the delay in response. Is the change environmental? Living in Roswell for 10 years, you're more aclimated to the heat. Or, your human half makes you more tolerant of "the Sweat." Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-19-2000 09:00 PM SF, I was so excited to read all this! On energy beings - I don't want them to be, simply because I think that would make them too abnormal to be secure with themselves. Imagine if they found out that they were really just bundles of invisible energy that found their way into human bodies once they entered Earth's atmosphere... that would be too much of a blow for them to continue normal life, I think. Energy beings, to me, wouldn't have any control over what form they appeared in... like if they ran into a rock, they might be absorbed into the rock, or something like that. Do energy beings in fact have minds that control motor functions, or do they just take on the characteristics of whatever they are closest to or inside of or what? I like the theory about the kids being alien/human hybrids, aliens who adapted to human shape, or beings that just look a lot like humans much, much better than this one. On Nasedo being evil - I think we are assuming this because of some spoilers. For me, seeing Nasedo standing there smirking at Max and Liz while they slept in the desert seemed a little odd to me... I just don't trust him yet. On Michael's sickness in The Balance - What was this even? I've always assumed it was supposed to be something like the akino in the books, but the show never really explained what happened. Michael's resistance to the sweat, I think, was because of his human tendencies. Every theory I have on these aliens comes back to the idea that they really do have human in them. I think I've decided that they are either alien/human hybrids or their bodies just adapted to the workings of humans' very well. I guess this is because I want the love story to work out, and I don't want any of them to end up alone and miserable and incompatible with any humans. I always get back on this track when I'm trying to talk sci-fi... I can't help it! Maybe these beings just were never that different from humans in the first place. If whatever Max did to Liz changed her in some way, it obviously wasn't deadly. The aliens are able to eat human food, speak the human languages, and just be humans period. In both real life and on this show, I like the idea that maybe aliens landed here a long time ago and have been mating with humans and creating this other race that is now so normal that we/they don't even notice the difference. I went to the library looking for good sci-fi books that aren't like Star Wars, but more involving human life like it is now (still no Yargo, SF!), and I found Gypsies by Robert Charles Wilson. I'm only on chapter five, but right now I like it a lot... it's about this woman who's flashing back to this childhood and remembering these strange dreams she had where she and her brother and sister would go outside and meet this man and open up a door in the air in front of them... ff to the future and it explains that they have this ability to walk between worlds and dimensions... it's very cool. It kind of reminds me of Majandra's answer for her belief in aliens... she thinks that if we traveled to another planet and saw nothing, maybe it's because we are in alternate dimensions... like people could travel to Earth and see nothing for the same reason. This really has nothing to do with Roswell, but wouldn't you love to have something like that? Or to be in Liz's position... someone who has definite knowledge that other worlds exist... I wish. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-19-2000 10:11 PM Kate: A couple of random comments on your post before I bow out for tonight: ENERGY BEINGS: If you can postulate beings who can manipulate molecules and change from matter to energy and back--then I'm not sure why you assume they would not have control of that transformation. As for higher cognitive functions--why not?? OUR ALIENS MIGHT BE HUMANOID. In the books, of course, the aliens' bodies shift according to environmental factors. I believe Metz implied that different situations called simply for different bodily adaptations--(i.e. the greylings bodies/ intersteller travel). If this is the case for our TV aliens--then the humanoid shape that they currently inhabit is one of purely convenience and not indicative of their essential nature. (This means that "soulmates" as a concept may operate more on a psycho-spiritual level than simply the mundane physical.) Of course, staying in one shape for so long (as our aliens have) may have caused changes. We already have a hint of this in symbols and writings that they know but can't remember. If so, then the longer they stay in human form, the more they risk forgetting their alien identities--who they "really" are. (This of course brings up what is the really "real" but I'm too tired to go there right now!) AN ASIDE: As I was walking my dog the other night I looked up at the stars in the PNW sky (I own a hobby farm surrounded by miles of wheat fields). Since I have been writing a lot about Roswell recently (some journal articles and reviews) it was not surprising that I began to wonder what it would be like to be a Max/Michael/Isabell, stranded on a planet where although I looked like everyone else, I was, essentially, quite different. I must say--it was almost an epiphany--the wave of loneliness and fear I felt as I tried to put myself in their hypothetical shoes. Even Max's fears and hesitation concerning Liz became a lot more understandable--and I actually felt a lot more empathy for his relational fence sitting. I think Elliot was absolutely correct when he observed that in some ways, Max needs Liz more than Liz needs Max. Liz helps shape Max's true humanity in ways other than simple molecular manipulation. Ironically, Liz is making Max more human at the same time that Max--if we go with the altered Liz theory--is making Liz more "alien". Talk about a meeting of ways!!! God I love this show-- LSS LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-20-2000 07:54 AM bump Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-20-2000 08:00 AM SF: Your theories about the developmental stages of the aliens is very interesting. And would work whether we choose to believe they are 'energy' beings or not. Clearly the children were in some kind of larval stage at age six, at which time they were sprung, by an accident or some other means. Were they in this stage for the full six years (or more) from the time they were conceived? Or was it some temporary state that they were put into to keep them that age until they were 'hatched' and life could continue for them again? I too found the cacooning of Michael in "Balance" a lot of new age mumbo jumbo that made no sense to me whatever. Was this a crucial stage he needed to go through? Evidence of trauma or illness? (which was implied). I hope some good reason for this is given eventually. Having not read the books, I don't know if it was based on something there (the 'akino'? Can someone who knows what that is explain please?) but I think it served a plot purpose in once again stressing MMI's 'alienness' to Liz and Maria, therefore putting the breaks on their developing romances. I think that in discussing "Roswell" plot points, we musn't lose site of the fact that producers and writers do things out of expedience or because it would make a good, punchy episode, science and logic be damned! LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-20-2000 08:19 AM Elliot: I agree that there were aspects of Balance/Michael's sickness/reaction (?) that were illogical. I thought the implied problem was that the heat in the sweat lodge caused a physical reaction in Michael. But, if the aliens' bodies are supposed to be highly adaptable--then why didn't Michael's body simply adapt? Of course we know his powers are not consistant--but Riverdog mentioned a similar problem with Nesedo!!! In the books the akino is physical rite of passage when alien youths access the wealth of knowlege of the species' collective consciousness. It can be accompanied by heightened sensations (light, sound, etc.) or other symptoms. I didn't get the sense that this is what happened to Michael at all. In the book, you either connect or die. There is no middle ground. Since Michael did neither then I assume that what happened to him was not the "akino". And yes--as SF viewers--we are probably more careful with the story logic of Roswell at times than the writers! LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-20-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-20-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-20-2000).] Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-20-2000 09:35 AM LSS: Thanks for the explanation of an 'akino.' Interesting, and I agree with you that Michael doesn't seem to have gone through that. If anyone does, it should be Max (re my theory that he is a Moses waiting to be enlightened), but it seems like maybe the show is side-stepping that whole process. If anything, the flash-backs and visions that the romantic couples are having may have been influenced by this akino idea. Also a spoiler about a particular book which seems like it has some info about the aliens' background and their possible mission. I consider it a given that Michael is the most desperate to connect with the fourth alien, and the most desperate to know about their past, and I don't think all the info he is going to be fed (by "T" or Nasedo) is necessarily going to be reliable or true. I think we need to see these scenes to tell if we're meant to believe them or not. Clearly Max is going to be skeptical about anything to do with Nasedo or "T," and with good reason. SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-20-2000 10:50 AM Kate, I can sympathise with your wanting MM&I to be very human. Maybe the grail Max is ultimately questing for is to become fully human and have a home here on earth. Something along the lines of the first Highlander movie (without all the chopped off heads of course). LSS, I liked your aside about empathizing with MM&I's total isolation and the fear and distrust they would feel to everyone different to themselves. I thought it also tied in really well to Bookish's comment about feral children, although they do have all their human influences and experiences from the past 10 years. If our speculation that their home planet doesn't exist is true, when they find out, their sense of isolation will be even greater than it is now. Maybe that will make them want to be more human, or identify more closely with humans. [This message has been edited by SF (edited 03-20-2000).] Heart of Ice Member Posts: 202 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-20-2000 11:20 AM I've lurked about this thread for several days and am fascinated by the scope of your thoughts. It's incredible. Sorry if I don't mention the correct authors, but: 1. I agree that the orb seems to be some kind of alien pituitary gland activator, at least for Max. I lean toward thinking Nasedo has played more than an idle-observer role in all of this too. (I'm of the "Nasedo is bad to the bone" school of thought.) 2. I love the idea that Michael could go to the dark side. I agree that his overpowering need to find their "true" home makes him all too vulnerable for a Nasedo-take over. (Makes me shudder to think of a bad Michael, though, you know?) 3. I also agree, Elliott, that the character of Isabel is under-utilized. Katherine is a fine actress and needs to take a stand more often. The snotty-***** alien is fine to introduce us to her character, but I think she'll be the most inclined to remain on Earth if the opportunity to leave ever occurs. Once again, the eloquence of (collectively) your writing continues to inspire me to pull off my lurker cloak and appear as a poster. Thanks for the great reading (oops, time for class!) Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-20-2000 01:39 PM About the akino... I didn't think that whatever Michael went through in The Balance was supposed to be the akino, but that they probably got that idea from the akino in the books. The thing that connects the two events most closely is that in the books, Max had to have the stones from the ship, or else he wouldn't be able to connect with the akino, and consequently, he'd die. On the show, River Dog made it clear that they'd have to use the stones to heal Michael, or he'd die. I really want them to explore the akino thing on the show... when the other five tried to help Max connect to the collective consciousness without the help of the stones, the energy and messages they received with the connection knocked them all out cold. It was every thought and feeling ever experienced by every member of their race, alive or dead... that's really powerful. And even though Max is the first one to go through the akino, it's known that Isabel and Michael will also have to experience it sometime. I wish they'd get into this, as well as the auras... that would have been cool to do, but I imagine the costs to have those special effects in there in every episode would be too much. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-20-2000 03:10 PM Kate: Yeah--I was really sorry to see the auras go, but realistically, they would have been impossible (on this show's budget) to bring over from the books! I think that you are correct in saying that the crystals in the Micahel/healing scene are reminiscent of the book's akino storyline, but I also think that the scene (in the book) where Max connects them all (and therefore they begin to trust each other) might have been of influence too. The bonding that happens (I'm thinking of Alex here)as a result of the healing of Michael reminds me of the book's group connection scene. Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-20-2000 03:35 PM About those polished amber stones, crystals or whatever. Can someone refresh my memory about how they were found? Do they light up? Does the group here have any theories about what they do or what they are supposed to mean? Will all these stange objects and signs link up somehow? And if so, what might they be? I know there was speculation that the broken necklace might have some power when made whole, but when the end piece was put against the rest, nothing happened at all. If it had real power would the writer have been allowed to keep it? Perhaps it was meant to be a sign whereby aliens recognized each other in human society, much as the sign of the fish in early Christian times? Rain Member Posts: 61 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-20-2000 03:40 PM You guys are so amazing! I am humbled in your presence! There are so many levels to this show - thank you for pointing them out. Rain SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-20-2000 03:59 PM Sorry, double post. [This message has been edited by SF (edited 03-20-2000).] SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-20-2000 04:16 PM Elliott: Nasedo gave the crystals to Riverdog after he saved him. Riverdog used the crystals to get Nasedo's balance right after a sweat, sometime before '59? The crystals lit up of their own accord when Michael placed them in the rock painting/map, they also lit up in the hands of both humans and aliens in the balance. As far as I can tell, beyond thinking the crystals are another connection to their home planet, no one has volunteered any theories. I think all the strange objects will come into play in the story. However, there are a lot of writers, so some may be lost along the way. "I know there was speculation that the broken necklace might have some power when made whole, but when the end piece was put against the rest, nothing happened at all." Good point. It would seem that if the pendant has power it's not inherent in and of itself, or you'ed expect it to make itself whole. Maybe it takes someone of special powers to make it whole, obviously not Nasedo. Like you said, he wouldn't have given it to Atherton if he valued it, or could fix it. Maybe it is just symbolic, but I find it interesting that for an individual with limited artifacts from his own kind, Nasedo doesn't hang on to much. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-20-2000 05:10 PM Elliott - I'm not sure if you were wondering about the stones in the book... they had to break into the compound (of Project Clean Slate, headed by Valenti) to get them from inside the ship (which Valenti and his men actually have kept in their compound). This turns into a huge mess, and Michael is held prisoner. As you can now tell, the tv series is starting to parallel the books a lot more... ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-20-2000 08:00 PM  Excpetional posting guys. I'm loving this quest. I have to catch up the last 2 days posts. LSS - you are RIGHT ON with your observation that the alien trio represent different aspects of the eternal hero. Not only that, they also embody different archetypes/heros at different times. That is very important because the mythology/tales focus on different heros/heroines and different relationships depending on the version of the tale. (I don't know about anyone else but I find this a lot of fun to do!) Regarding Isabel, your choice of words (Warrior-Maiden, eternal mother/sorceress) do apply very nicely. It may have been you or Elliot or SF who used the term Great Mother. That is the correct archetype. ELLIOT you are also very correct with the Virgin-Madonna observation (and so many other things that I have to get to in another post), and the Mall-Princess (LMAO) appellation. EXCEPTIONAL post about Michael being ripe for the dark side. Bravo! SF - you are amazing. I have to talk about the palm print next time. BOOKISH- very insightful comments about the passions (ie, M/L) paradoxically underscoring the "otherness"/differences. JANETMG- I'll get to you next post. Two wonderful things you said. Have patience with me while I lay my thoughts out. I can't do it as cleanly as I would like because I have sooo much work to do. And I to do it in parts. Forgive this length. The grail/quest is archetypal, suggesting templates for some universal human behaviors or nature. The symbols and conventions were interpreted and revised by the myth- and fairy tale makers, of course, within the religious and social contexts of the age in which they were told/created. LSS, you asked my thoughts on Isabel (I knew you'd do that!). Isabelle was very difficult to get a good handle on because she is a composite of many archetypes, and she represents different things to different people, and herself, and at different times. I have not seen enough of her character to get a good sense of her pivotal role in the quest. But the hardest one to get a "mythological" handle on is Maria. Perhaps that is because I want to avoid what the myth suggests may occur. I don't want the Candygirls (is that right?) to take it too literally and get upset. Liz is very complex but after I checked some resources, I think I have a better sense of her and the predictions are quite nice indeed. In most of the grail myths, something triggers the presentation of the "signs, wonders, and symbols" that set off the quest: ?emerging maturity (sexual and emotional), ? the desire (in and of itself) to seek/question; ?the natural order is disrupted, endangering home(land), family, and friends (ie, Max healing Liz, breaking the rules). From primitive tales onward, there is the Old Man Archetype who is either the descendent of "the ones" (gods, holy ancestors, totem animals) whose identities and relationships to certain "earthly peoples', and origins are a closely guarded secret. The Old Man retains a relic/object and it is his task to keep it secret until the rightful descendant of the old ones passes some initiation and transforms the object or is transformed. Of course we have seen this by the "tests" River Dog gave to Mk and Mx. They are thusly identified and now he knows they are related to the supernatural/ mythical ancesters. Unlike the grail quest that is triggered by this event and the presentation of the symbols, the Question must NOT be asked here. In the grail quest, the Old Man along with the Grail Bearer (?Liz) appears when the heroes are floundering/discouraged/at odds to give encouragement and re-present the symbols. At this time, I perceive Isabel as having three, maybe four, pivotal functions in this quest. GREAT MOTHER (GM) ARCHETYPE- she wants to keep Mx and Mk under her wing, to protect them from danger, hardship, hurt, and from the outside world. She wants all the things the adoptive parents represent: home, safety, plenty. Also health/the natural order/ Mother. She has the instinct for nest protection. Being a Mall-Queen/Princess (indeed, to her, just being a regular teen girl ) are just expressions of life in CAMELOT. She is the Princess of Camelot. The Evans' home is the Grail castle that is destined to start to "sink beneath the water". Isabel is the universal giver/nurturer. But she is also just the daughter of Camelot, because Mr and Mrs Evans are also Great Mother and Great Father. But Iz is GM in the isolated microcosm universe only known to the three until very recently. In their isolated world she is Mother/sister/Grail Bearer. Too much protectiveness by the GM can impair the growth and development of the children. When the children realize the time is near to grow and mature, leave home to find their way in the world and seek answers, the quest is initiated: the purpose of the quest is to make conscious that which is hidden in the unconscious. Another way to state this is that the fairy-tale of childhood (symbols of the Great Mother, Home, underwater and water= the unconscious) must recede and the individual must evolve into an adult, must emerge (become conscious). That is the grail archetype. The Grail is the realization of one's individual potential and development. LENEBA - you used the expression .."no emotional investment...no alteration". You go girl. That summarizes what is meant by becoming conscious: it takes emotional investment and energy to develop and maintain our independent (adult) identities. Isabel wants things to go an as before. She wants to keep Mx and Mk close. Max wants to remain home as well, but he knows he can't "hide" anymore. This is threatening to both of them. And they are both ambivalent, and rightly so. So along with the deep love they share, there exist the tensions and struggles about CONTROL between Max and Iz. But Michael, in addition to wanting and needing a father figure, also needs mother/sister/lover. Hence the very special bond (at least this is what I sense) between Iz and Michael. So strong that when I first stated lurking at Crashdown, there was a thread about a Mk-Iz relationship. From what I recall, some were put off by the idea that they might be brother and sister. The myth predicts that Mike's first love is the first Great Mother/Madonna/young woman he knows. He has no other real female role model internalized. He projects her (his anima) onto Maria and poor Maria falls short. This is the origin of the initial friction between them. He comes to love her for her own indiosyncrasies of course, but he is, after all, a teen boy, barely past puberty (or what passes for it for him and Max). Note that Max has had female role models and he has internalized the best of them. His anima is projected on to Liz. No wonder he has loved her deeply for so long. And no wonder, as Elliot said, we perceive Max as a real sweetheart. Mrs Evans, as the GM archetype and just plain loving, mother, understands far more than her that the order must change, that her children must embark on their own life, seek their own answers, and face the world. She has not asked the questions troubling her deep in her heart, but she knows she will have to let them grow, possibly leave. In the myths, it's the mother-son bond that is most significant (Perceval). This bond was addressed poignantly in Toy House. In the myths, the hero bears great guilt, but he will not be swayed from departing. As he leaves, he sees his mother (who will not stop him nor ask ask him the question again, as in Toy House) sink to the ground (usually at a bridge) and sink under water with the Home. This is symbolic of childhood receding into the unconscious. Isabel can also represent the GRAIL QUEEN/PRINCESS. She is the protector of the Grail Castle (and all it represents). She is the bearer/presenter of symbols (ie, she wears the whirlwind symbol, presents it to Max and prompts him to seek the meaning. She appears in visions or dreams. She bears/presents the vessel ( = woman =the bloodline) and the sword. Here she can be daughter/sister/lover/ideal/protector. And, if you will, temptress. In chivalric tradition, she may represent chaste love/purity/the virgin; but she is also fetish object (desired), and powerful, mysterious, woman. This is why sorceress FEMALE WARRIOR/QUESTOR/KNIGHT: As sister (ie, to Perceval), Isabel is a female questing knight, but her quest is separate and along another path than the trio of (guardian) knights. She understands, ultimately, the real purpose of the quest: SERVICE (from self realization from trials and challenges), LOVE, and FAITH. She should be the most powerful, but her quest will not be about slaying dragons and bad guys. It should be more about service and sacrifice. After the penultimate task is completed, ie , when 'The Balance' has been restored (prosperity, safety, the land, the Kings, etc), it is she (having realized her full potential from her separate path) who will tell the other knights (?Perceval, Galahad/Gawain and Brons template) that the most important part of the quest is yet to come: the inner voyage of love, faith, service ("the grail serves all " people, which is the answer to the question "who(m) does the grail serve" ). This is great news: it suggests that the M/L relationship will flower AFTER they have fulfilled the penultimate task and when the grail (truth) reveals itself for the last time, to remain hidden until a new groups comes along to restore some lost Balance. Note, in the tales, only one questor, ?Liz (Galahad/Gawain template) is completely successful. The others can only have been partially successful, largely because they floundered in despair and were, at one point, turned against each other. VERY ASTUTE observation by Elliot (I just love this ): that Max needs Liz more than Liz needs Max. Yes! Yes! Yes! It is her love, intelligence, devotion, and her science that will help all of them in the end (whether to go home, stay home, survive, serve society). She will find the way. VESSEL/SANGREAL- Note that holy grail is thought to be an interpretation of Sangreal = royal blood. Depending on the tale/arcana, the grail is a stone, a vessel (=universe), a vessel that carried Christ's blood, the womb, therefore hidden metaphor for the bloodline of the "holy" family. As the grail princess and bearer of the vessel (bloodline), Isabel would be the one who is being protected because it would be her child that will be the ultimate knight/leader. Who she is allowed to mate with becomes a very touchy issue. Myth provides several possibilities and they may not be palatable to all. Compare these with your spoilers and see what you think. I'll post a little more later. Long posts are hard to read. TBC: Liz as Grail Bearer, Star Woman (anima and mirror figure for the hero), the protector of the chessboard symbol (=completion, wholeness, the universe), and the Ultimate Knight. (See also Navajo myth Twin War Gods) Michael and the fatherless hero myth. He is definitely predicted to be ripe for the dark side. Exceptional post about this ELLIOT, and additional comments by LSS and KATE. Nasedo as Trickster Archetype/ Merlin. And if there is a Merlin, you can believe that the myth predicts that there is a Tricktser woman/ Morgana in the wings. Separately and together, they will trick one of the heros to betray the trust of the other and cause theq uest to falter and severe trials of character and leadership to follow. Maria- I'm working on it. Rostafehrian PS- LENEBA: Georgetown Univ. Labyrinth Project: www.georgetown.edu/labyrinth/ (caught some of the typos on revision, forgive the rest) [This message has been edited by ROStaFEHRian (edited 03-20-2000).] ROStaFEHRian Member Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-20-2000 09:21 PM Welcome HEART of ICE Hi RAIN! HEART OF ICE, I would like to hear your reasons why you think Isabel is the most likely to remain on earth? ROSta woman Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-20-2000 10:19 PM This is a little aside, but did anyone think it was significant that Isabel remarked about our sun being yellow? Earthborn eyes might not notice, but Isabel's kind are, we now think, from a planet whose star is some other color. She finds the yellow sun so striking that it is connected with her earliest memory. In retrospect, I find this little detail touching. SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-21-2000 04:15 AM ROSta great post. You're really making me think outside my box. Roswell The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions (Page 6) This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-21-2000 07:49 AM Whoa!! ROStaFEHRian: Incredible post. Complex, dense, interesting and wonderfully thought out. I have not studied these archetypal legends/myths as you have, but a lifetime of reading and watching movies/TV have made us all familiar with these stories and archetypal characters. And I am impressed with how easily (and with a feeling of 'rightness') the 'Roswell' plots and characters fit into these slots. Morgana indeed. After "Crazy" we can begin to discuss her apart from the Science spoiler thread. If there is a misfit in this, it is that some of the female characters (Liz and Maria) don't fit as easily into all of the female 'types.' Of course times have changed, and why shouldn't these women assume some of the questing and responsibilities of the men? But you've given us a lot to digest. I look forward to your theories about Maria. Might she not be a benevolent Morgana figure? (Can there be such a thing?) A literal counterpoint (vis a vis Michael) to the Other? I was surprised that "Independence Day" showed a chaste streak in her, a deep cyncism about love and men that suggested she must go on her own emotional quest re trust and the value of love. I can't wait to see how you think Maria fits into all this. Very interesting for me because I approach 'Roswell' from an emotional/psychological point of view, and yet we seem to end up in the same neck of the woods and our respective theories support/enlarge on each other. A telling sign that these archetypes have always been very psychologically and emotionally astute. Heart of Ice Member Posts: 202 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-21-2000 09:29 AM Rosta: I think Isabel is most likely to want to stay mostly because she seems to act as though she's "home." I think of a line Max said in "Toy House," as he spoke to his mother on the park bench, something to the effect [just after being adopted by the Evans] "Isabel was home, but I just cried every night." I think that Isabel feels in control here; there is certainty in her life. Her past is so unknown, so full of possibilities - good and bad - that it isn't as secure as what she knows. I don't know if it's a mother-[alien]daughter bond that might make staying so appealing to her (I've never shared a close bond with my mother so I can't speak to the strength of a good mom/daughter bond), but the character just seems to be "home" on Earth. Since I have a chance to ramble here, I do believe that Isabel would leave with the boys. They are 'kin,' afterall, but if the opportunity doesn't present itself, I think she'll be content to stay here, roaming the mall looking like a fashion-plate! I found, after reading my original post, that I may have crossed the line in a vocabulary choice (snotty *****) - I apologize to the moderators. I'll be better, promise! Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-21-2000 09:42 AM LSS: Since you originated this stimulating thread, I want to make a suggestion that you can take or leave alone. I suggest it because we are slowly outgrowing this particular thread, and because though "Sexual Healing" was the original impetus for your thoughts, we are now ranging over virtually all the episodes that have aired (as well as champing at the bit re spoilers for upcoming shows). Let me make the following suggestion: That each week, as a new episode is aired, you (or someone who regularly posts on this thread and has something to say) open a new thread, "The Science Fiction of 'Blood Brothers,'" etc. and continue the discussion from there. Obviously given the thrust of this thread, regular posters here will be reviewing (or in some cases seeing for the first time) episodes that might have bearing on these topics. I see this as a continuing conversation, ranging over all the characters and episodes, but moving from week to week with fresh insights from reruns and then original shows. What do you think? LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-21-2000 10:20 AM Elliot: I think that is a great idea. Actually, starting with "Crazy" I will weekly be submitting a SF specific commentary/review of each episode (and working on the backlog) for the Episode section of the Home Page. Each review will include both an analysis of the episode as well as comments on the questions it raises for Roswell's overall SF framework. I envisioned starting a thread like the one you mentioned after each episode. This thread would allow for a continued conversation concerning questions raised in the commentary as well as other free floating discussion of SF plot elements (like this thread). I have been SO impressed with the calibre of conversation on this thread and have enjoyed it so immensely that I wanted to make sure it had a chance to continue. As far as I know, few other sites take as seriously Roswell's SF components as this site does (and will continue to do). Hope others think that this is a good idea and will read the reviews as they are posted, visit the thread, and continue contributing their comments and ideas. What do you think of the above? LSS [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-21-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-21-2000).] [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-21-2000).] ETAmerican Member Posts: 331 Registered: Nov 1999 posted 03-21-2000 11:17 AM RostaFherian: Excellent post about the mythological types that Roswell so easily represents, or presents rather. As a writer, I find these kind of disucssions facinating and wanted to bring up two books which are very relevant: "The Hero with a 1000 Faces" by Joseph Campbell, and "The Writer's Journey: Mythic Structure for Storytellers & Screenwriters" by Christopher Vogler. They touch on almost the exact same things that Rosta brought up as they explore the origins of the modern 3 act structure which Hollywood uses today to tell stories, all stories, and obviously Roswell is no exception. What is interesting is that from a Greek Mythological stand-point, the trickster or shape-shifter is either a female or someone whom the hero(es) dosen't quite know where their alligance lies. This of course can be either "T" and/or Nasedo. Nasedo in the literal sense of being an actual shape-shifter which falls in line with the show turning metaphor into literal phenomena; I.E. "connecting with someone" has Max literally look into Liz's soul; "Faking it" with Michael and Maria's visions as it pertains to a real emotional connection concerning sex; teen "alienation" and so on and so forth. What is also interesting is the mentor/father figure archetype wasn't discussed much -- Which is clearly River Dog -- Although, some might argue it's Valenti as he indirectly HAS guided our heroes by giving/providing them with clues (the key, the cornoner's photos)to complete thier quest. And speaking of structure (which people often confuse with formula/forumlaic)... Roswell, as a series, is at the start of act III in my opinion. Act one and two were where we were introduced to the characters. Act two was where they had to overcome some great obstacles, mainly their coming to terms with thier relationships (M/L, M/M, A/I) with each other as well as hiding from Valenti and the The FBI. Act three is that now they are ready to test those relationships and new found "self-knowledge" to accomplish the task at hand and whatever is coming next (finding Nasedo, going home, staying, etc.) which is external in nature. I mean, there is no fancy official term for what I just said, I am just like Elliot who has watched a lot of movies and knows the resolution is coming But I do know that in Act three there will be a plot point (time) when the hero (Max?) hits his lowest point ("T" situation?) -- His decent into darkness or the underworld from a mythological standpoint -- Which gives him the courage to face his antagonist and possibly defeat them (Nasedo?), and I for one can't wait to see how this plays out... Especially if this applies more to Michael in the long run as some of you have postulated. I also wanted to make a personal observation that Max/Michael/Isabel might also represent the Id, Ego and the Superego since there are three of them (this has nothing to do with structure, but no one has brought this up yet ) P.S. - I too would love a weekly thread as this is what a message board SHOULD be about in terms of the exchange of ideas. I for one know a lot of fan fics that have spawned from this thread -- Myself included [This message has been edited by ETAmerican (edited 03-21-2000).] Heart of Ice Member Posts: 202 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-21-2000 11:43 AM ETAmerican: thank you for a wonderful writer's perspective. I had taken a peek at the spoilers (vowing never to do so again), and was feeling uncomfortable with what I read. Feel much better now. This is a great thread and one I've loved lurking through since its inception. Look forward to future dissertations. Elliott Member Posts: 732 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-21-2000 12:11 PM LSS: Sounds great. This is your brainchild, your baby and wherever you go, we will follow. Kate6058 Member Posts: 1003 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 03-21-2000 12:56 PM quote: Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian: This is great news: it suggests that the M/L relationship will flower AFTER they have fulfilled the penultimate task and when the grail (truth) reveals itself for the last time, to remain hidden until a new groups comes along to restore some lost Balance. Note, in the tales, only one questor, ?Liz (Galahad/Gawain template) is completely successful. The others can only have been partially successful, largely because they floundered in despair and were, at one point, turned against each other. VERY ASTUTE observation by Elliot (I just love this ): that Max needs Liz more than Liz needs Max. Yes! Yes! Yes! It is her love, intelligence, devotion, and her science that will help all of them in the end (whether to go home, stay home, survive, serve society). She will find the way. As if you all can't already tell, my favorite topic of discussion is the bond between Max and Liz :). Rosta, I can't articulate how much I think your observations are dead on. The idea that a bond between two people could be so strong to survive these quests and battles blows my mind... Liz completes Max; she is the key to his survival. Soulmates must be made across galaxies and around physical differences of every kind... LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-21-2000 02:58 PM ROStaFEHRian: What a wonderful analysis of the archetypal richness of Roswell's characters! What insight into the "deep structures" of Roswell's story universe! (LSS stands up and cheers wildly from her desk). I also liked your identification of Nesedo with the mythic trickster and am intrigued with your mention of the trickser/female figure (and pretending I'm spoiler free, I'll stop there). I stand amazed at how these mythic structures order our various stories and shape our perception of reality regardless of the time period or geographical location in which we find ourselves. Again--well done Rosta!!! NEMO: I also vaguely remember that Isabell refers to Diane Evan's clothing (a sweater?) as being yellow when she first saw her...and wondered about the significance of sun/mother/light/warmth that it implied. Does this have something to do with Isabell's acceptance of the Evans? If so, then why did Max not feel the same? ETAmerican: I really liked your three act (CONFLICT/PLOT DEVELOPMENT/RESOLUTION OF CONFLICT) structural model of Roswell's 22 episode season. I think you are correct in saying we are now moving towards Act 3 which will, I think, resolve some old tensions while at the same time create new ones. Thus the end of season one contains within it the seeds of the initial tension of season two. And so we begin the cycle over...(I have faith in our renewal efforts!). I thought of Campbell too! In addition, I wonder that someone hasn't jumped in with a Jungian analysis--there has been quite a lot done in the area of motif analysis. ELLIOT: Thanks for the words of encouragement. I'm submitting six reviews (Toy House to Crazy) as soon as Crazy airs. I will also open a new thread entitled "SF of Blood Brothers" tomorrow. By the way, I've printed this thread out (all 200 pages of it) and am once again impressed by all your contributions and ideas. [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 03-21-2000).] LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-21-2000 03:26 PM Gosh--I'm not sure I should do this...but for those among you who are "tainted" or wish to be "tainted" by the spoiler side, the spoilers concerning the Max to the Max episode are mind blowing in their revelation of the SF dimension of this show. Suffice it to say that some of our posters were dead on in their speculations. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-21-2000 10:25 PM bump SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-22-2000 11:29 AM quote: Originally posted by LSS: Hope others think that this is a good idea and will read the reviews as they are posted, visit the thread, and continue contributing their comments and ideas. LSS your ideas sounds great. I'll be keeping an eye out for your new threads. Haven't looked at the spoilers recently, but your comment about Max to the Max intrigued me. Kudos for starting this thread, it's been really worthwhile. Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-24-2000 09:43 PM LSS, thank you for responding to my remarks about Isabel's being impressed by the yellow sun. Since your response was in a different direction than I was going, perhaps I was obscure. Let me try again. In SH (as discussed above) it is hinted that the alien trio, or their ancestors, are from a world whose sun was red and dying. If so, then to them our sun would be remarkable for its unaccustomed brightness and yellowness. And this seems to fit with one or two details we have seen in earlier episodes. (1) (in Toy House) Diane Evans asks Isabel about her pre-adoption days, and Isabel (when pressed) replies "I most clearly remember seeing you and daddy the day that you came to adopt us, and you were wearing this yellow sweater. And I remember thinking that it looked like the sun. That you were like the sun...." (2) (earlier, in River Dog) Isabel wants to discuss with Max the half-remembered symbol they once drew on a beach, and begins, "You remember when Mom and Dad took us to Florida that summer?" Max replies, "Sure. You had sunstroke all of August...." Not being Sherlock Holmes, I missed the significance of these at the time, but now I suspect the writers put them in for clues about the red star, don't you? (Though maybe foreshadowing isn't the right word when speaking of light itself.) After quote (1) above, Isabel continues "[...you were like the sun.] Mom, I don't know if you can understand this, but...the day that you and daddy came for us...that's when our lives began." This is more of a guess, but if the aliens have some ancestral memory of when their sun was younger and yellower and life-sustaining, maybe it is natural for Isabel to (subconsciously?) associate the yellow sun with the idea of new life. As for why we see this of Isabel and not the others: as a physicist, I'm out of my depth here, just guessing. Maybe the lighting differences in question are subtle, maybe Isabel is more perceptive or articulate about such things. (Max to Liz: "We're not all the same, you know.") Maybe the storytellers wanted to touch on the point only lightly, one person's response was enough. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-25-2000).] diamondgurl Member Posts: 109 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-24-2000 10:10 PM Just a little info for y'all to pick over that I got from my science teacher (she must think I'm a freak)- In SH, Liz had a vision of a red giant star. Now, assuming that was the star that supported life on the Pod Squad's planet, here are a few interesting facts- - A red giant star usually is so huge it consumes the planets that orbit closest to it when it transitions from a main sequence star to a red giant. Perhaps this could have been a reason for sending M/M/I to Earth? -Once a star turns into a red giant, it rapidly cools, then turns into a white dwarf star, hardly bright enough to sustain life. Hmm, the possibilities? Just my 2 cents. Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-24-2000 11:07 PM diamondgurl, I believe what you and your teacher say about red giants. I would just add that stars evolving into red giants grow red first and gigantic later. So, if our friends or their ancestors left their home world because their sun was nearing its end, presumably they took warning from its reddening phase, and departed well before the giant phase. (This is consistent with what you and others have said.) And if Liz's vision is what an observer would have seen at the start of that journey, that would be just a red star, not yet a red giant. Remember, Liz didn't use the word 'giant' at first, the teacher did. She only asked about "a red star, or a red something." For a star of about the size of our sun, the eventual expansion into a giant takes hundreds of millions of years, time enough for millions of human generations. To make a timely exodus seems like a remarkable achievement, given that each generation would be tempted to postpone dealing with the problem, which would grow only a little worse in their time. (Consider how hard it is for human societies to accept the cost of coping with such slow-developing problems as ozone depletion, etc.) [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-25-2000).] Shee Member Posts: 130 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-25-2000 03:58 PM Just bumping this back to the first page. I was skipping this thread until I took the time to actually read some of it. So bloody interesting!! Worthy of remaining on the first page. The ideas expressed in this thread are boggling. Shee SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-25-2000 08:20 PM Nemo, just wanted to let you know I loved your post about Isabel and our yellow sun. I was also struck by the sunstroke comment, and if you include Nasedo and Michael's physical responses to the sweat, then it seems these aliens aren't too heat tolerant. Thanks for the information on the length of time a red sun takes to grow to it's giant size. If we assume that evolutionary theory applies to their species, then with millions of generations living and reproducing in an environment with less intense light (I'm guessing), and cooler climates (guessing again) there would be a selective advantage to individuals adapted to these conditions. So it definitely makes sense that our heat and UV light intolerant (guessing again that sunstroke is caused more by UV light) aliens came form a cooler planet with less intense light. Just out of curiosity. When a sun shifts into its red phase, do the longer wavelengths of the em spectrum predominate? I'm asking that question entirely out of my understanding that red has the longest wavelength in the visible spectrum. Why is the em radiation of the red sun cooler than a yellow sun? I'm thinking about black body energy absorption and my very shaky understanding of the subject. I'd also be interested in your take on some of the "space" images we saw in Liz's early visions in SH. Three of the five images are identifiable: "warp speed" stars; a spiral galaxy; zooming towards earth, passing by the outer planets in our solar system. The other two are more ambiguous. Someone described the one image as a debris field, but it looked like a close up of a bad water and oil emulsion to me. I initially thought the other image was supposed to be the red star, but then I took a closer look at it. It's a black sphere with an equatorial planar field of red material, and the camera zooms towards the center of the sphere in the vision. Any ideas? [This message has been edited by SF (edited 03-25-2000).] Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-25-2000 11:13 PM SF, thanks for the compliments. Now to your questions. When a sun, say a yellow one, shifts toward red, do the longer wavelengths predominate? The short answer is yes, that's the right idea. But the way this happens is: the spectrum becomes less bright everywhere, but the red side drops less than the blue. So the remaining light looks redder. If the size of the star did not change as it cooled and reddened, its light/heat output would drop; so would the temperature of whatever planets it has. But stars in this phase expand as they redden. The expansion is slow at first, and for a long time; the increased area almost makes up for the decreased output per unit area, so the planets might cool only a little at this stage. You could say the radiation is cooler in the sense of being less concentrated, but there is more of it. Like having two dim heat lamps instead of one bright one. Then the situation turns fierce. The star's cooling slows down and its expansion speeds up, so its lumenosity and diameter go way up. This is the red giant phase the teacher told about. Ordinarily this still takes a long time, but I now think that the story speeds up this phase for dramatic effect (as Elliott and others have led us to expect sometimes). So that, as Leneba points out, the increased light from the red giant in question wouldn't have reached us yet; the light reaching us now would still be from the moderate-sized red phase, which could easily be too faint to notice at this distance. Especially if the teacher's astrophotograph, like the ones on my walls, were made using photographic film, which is less sensitive to red than to blue. [More recent imaging instruments (CCD cameras) pick up red as well as anything, but schools may still have lots of older stuff. So the teacher needn't be altogether wrong.] About the "space images," I need to see them again, and won't get a chance for a day or two. I remember the one zooming toward the Earth, passing what looked like Mars. The "black sphere" with equatorial red, I do not recognize. It may be fictional. Let me take another look and write more when I can. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-01-2000).] 223hrc Junior Member Posts: 7 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-26-2000 09:54 PM Its 12:40am and I should be sleeping since my mother is visiting me and I'm taking her to Colonial Williamsburg tomorrow, but I just had to respond. ETAmerican - I'm glad someone else thought that we have seen more than one Nasedo, but I think each one shown has been a different Nasedo. Love what everyone else has contributed to this thread. Here's my two cents for what its worth (I'll add more in later when I've had a chance to read what everyone else has written). I don't know if it was supposed to be a deliberate reference to their planet or just stars in the galaxy, but I think their planet did explode. Sorry, no astrophysical reasoning behind my guess. I was confused as to whose "visions" we were seeing. Max thought they were his, but if he was in an incubation pod, how would he know what was going on? Unless they landed and then went into the pods. But then someone would have had to bury/hide them. I don't know if I can believe if it was a deliberate thing, landing on Earth. In the radio tower vision, I came to the conclusion that it was Nasedo's visions that we were seeing. We have the sound effects of someone running/breathing heavily and then burying the orb. But, why send Max (and Liz) for the orb? Why would it be important for Max to find it? I agree that it was probably a test. Max, a messianic alien? Interesting theory. Interbreeding? Won't touch that one, but only because I think they're too young to be having sex. I know, I know, call me old fashioned, prude, or whatever, but I hope it doesn't become a reality anytime soon. That's it for now...but I'll be back. crh [This message has been edited by 223hrc (edited 03-27-2000).] Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-26-2000 10:20 PM [message deleted] [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-26-2000).] [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-27-2000).] Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-27-2000 12:44 AM SF, after studying the visions and discussing with my wife (the astrophysicist in the family) I have reached some tentative conclusions. What I think I saw, in sequence: Kitchen: 1. Bowl of berries falls. (Refill.) Bowl falls again. This time, as the bowl spins and berries scatter, the tiny white dots on the sides of the berries are seen, greatly magnified by reflection in the mirror-like bowl, creating an impression similar to item 3 below. I marveled at this beautiful, ingenious visual effect. 2. Stars, "warp speed." 3. Something like an explosion, scattering debris. Classroom (pencil drops): 4. Spiral galaxy. 5. Black sphere with reddish debris in midplane (hence only the upper hemisphere of black is discernible) Our viewpoint appears to be moving into the blackness. Eraser room: 6. Liz(?) as a child. 7. Stars, Mars, Earth, crash to ground. Locker room: 8. Someone running/hiding from pursuing soldiers. Michael's apartment: 9. Towers (possibly more than one? at least one is marked "restricted area"). Soldiers advancing. Something being hastily buried. My take on this (credits to those who went before, "too numerous to mention"): Preliminary conclusions: P1. Since the easily-recognized parts of this sequence appear to be chronological, I believe the whole sequence is chronological. This principle guides my interpretation of the more puzzling items, such as 3 and 5. P2. The black sphere (5) is a black hole, surrounded by an accretion disk of material that may soon fall in. (Without some of this stuff for contrast, the black would not have been discernible to us.) Reddening of some of the light is due to the gravitational redshift as the light barely escapes the deep gravitational energy well surrounding the hole. If this is right, I think the picture-story (as numbered above) is: 1. The aliens' scientists observe the destruction of some neighboring world. Soon it happens again. This downfall of neighboring worlds is like a mirror in which they foresee the demise of their own world. 2. They leave. It looks as if they can travel faster than light. 3. Their world is obliterated as they look back on it. (Remarkable that they can see that, while outrunning the light. Perhaps the scene is only imagined.) 4. They get beyond their galaxy and look back at it. 5. They use a black hole as a portal to a wormhole or some such shortcut, beloved of SF writers. (Not clear why they use this if they already have superluminal speed, but it's cool and dramatic. Maybe it shows us how advanced they are, and makes us worry that more of them could appear anywhere anytime. And we have no assurance that such others would be as kindhearted as M/M/I. In fact, the writers use place-names like Aries and Whirlwind, that seem to connote warlikeness and sudden irresistible force.) 6. Meanwhile, on Earth, Liz is a child (wearing the Kindergarten Dress of Supreme Embarassment?). But no, this would be an exception to the otherwise perfect chronological sequence. Did you guys already discuss this? Or have I observed it wrong? I must rewatch the recording. 7. The aliens arrive in our galaxy (indicated by the stars) and soon our solar system, then crash to earth. (I'm betting that they crashed on the initial landing, not on some subsequent takeoff. Since we've been shown all the landmark events of the journey so far, to start omitting some here would seem inconsistent, sort of unfair to the viewer.) 8-9. Adult survivor(s?) of the crash have time to get a short distance away. (ETA, by now you have probably seen that the distance in question was only 2 miles; 42 was the number of the adjacent highway.) Soon they see troops closing in. As shape-shifters, they can hope to pass for harmless humans (drifters, perhaps) even if caught by the soldiers, but not if they are found carrying alien artifacts. They hastily bury the orb where they can find it again, using the radio tower as a landmark. Maybe they also hide other things (the pods?). (The reason I think we might have seen two different towers is that one might be the civilian radio tower near highway 42, the other, with the Restricted Area sign, may be on a military base closer to the crash site, which explains the intense military concern over any possible intrusion.) If I remember right, in July 1947 the Roswell vicinity was the site of the first nuclear-armed air base in the US (or the world), and the country had been greatly fearful and suspicious of surprise attack at least since Pearl Harbor, which was less than 6 years earlier. (Apart from the proximity to that base, I don't such a concerted reaction would have been triggered by concern specifically over UFO's, which had barely begun to be heard of.) Which leaves us with the truck-driver's question: If you were an alien, and could go anywhere, would you go to Roswell? [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-27-2000).] [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 03-27-2000).] 223hrc Junior Member Posts: 7 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 03-27-2000 03:19 AM NEMO and everyone else, *feeling red in the face* I'm new at this and still trying to figure out all "the rules" (I'll go back and read the "Newbie - Please Read" section again). My apologies for mentioning spoiler information. I have deleted it for future posters. [This message has been edited by 223hrc (edited 03-27-2000).] SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-27-2000 04:06 PM Nemo, Thanks for answering my questions. I also thought the black sphere was a black hole, but I had no idea how to explain the red. It's interesting that Liz said she saw a red star, but we the audience don't. She also didn't tell Max all that she saw, or her interpretation of it, at least on camera. I agree that the visions can be taken chronologically, but the show hasn't yet explored all of that. The vision of Liz as a kid is probably Max's vision, since they were each getting visions from the other one. Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 03-28-2000 07:03 PM Apparently some people are searching for this, so let's make it easy. LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 03-31-2000 05:15 PM As Nemo said--we keep refering to this thread on the other two SF threads so I want to make sure it is available to readers. If you have read this--be sure to check out its companion threads the SF of Blood Brothers and the SF of Balance. We plan to have a thread for each episode for those SF Enthusiasts Amoung Us! LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-01-2000 09:24 AM Nemo: I went back and read through your post on putting the vision elements together in a linear narrative--well done!!! Which raises another idea that I hadn't thought of before. We previously explored the notion of the orb and its possible biological effects on M/L. But I wonder--if the visions are linked to the orb--then could it be some type of repository for information--like an archival source or even a ship's "black box"? What do you think? [This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-01-2000).] Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-01-2000 10:45 PM What about the orb? I don't see a way to reason out its workings from physics, so I'm only guessing. But it seems clear that the adult alien in SH could easily have taken it from Max and Liz as they slept, but didn't. So apparently it suits him for them to have it. And if it can be programmed, he had a chance to do that. Thus my impression is that it's like an alarm clock, meant to prompt Max to get on with the next phase of his "planned destiny." I think this fits with Liz's opening words, which seem chilling to me too. Could the orb be a ship's archive or "black box"? Something that size could store a lot of information in our technology, let alone theirs. If they can travel faster than light and navigate wormholes and maybe do elaborate bioengineering, then doubless their electronics (or whatever) can be amazing too. (Though if it's the main information store of the ship, would the adult alien leave it with Max? But maybe he no longer needs the data, or it's not the only copy, or it's nearly indestructible, or he's sure Max will be careful with it.) But whatever else it is, it just reminded me of an alarm clock, lying there on the blanket alongside the sleepers. Just as Elliott, Arctic Lurker, SF, and maybe others have suggested. In SH there is so much parallelism between Liz and Max that I think her opening words are meant to apply with equal force to Max. I think it is hinted that both of them will struggle with influences (besides the usual hormones) that are "almost chemical," i.e. they don't reason with us, they try to impel us. Perhaps that was the symbolism of the mirrors in the locker room? Mirror reflections of both Max and Liz were shown for much longer than it would take to just check that spot on her shoulder. Each of them looked like two people. (Did I imagine it, or did Max's mirror image for a moment loom larger than he did?) I was reminded of her opening phrases about "part of me" vs. another part. The parallel between Max and Liz that was most striking to me was about the visions: Liz sees a vision that matches the Whirlwind Galaxy, except for a detail (that "red something") not visible from Earth, proving that the image comes (presumably via Max) from someone who has been there. Just to make sure we can work this out, the writers walk us through a parallel case: Max finds that his vision matches the girls' locker room, which he had not seen before, showing that the image came from someone else who had been there. One big asymmetry is that Liz is acutely aware of the image Max picked up, whereas he seems unconscious of what she saw. So was it inside him, or projected by the orb somehow? That one concentrated beam of light from the orb evokes images of a searchlight, navigational beacon, signaling flare, or image projector. As for how Max could have memories of his planetary system and galaxy of origin, it seems to me inescapable that those pods must have taught those kids a lot, given that they walked out and got accepted by humans as fairly ordinary 6-year-olds. Partial lack of knowledge or skill could be deemed a result of abandonment or suspected abuse, but not complete blankness. So apparently the pods did a good job preparing them (physically and mentally), and images of their ancestral home could have been part of the course. By the way, in the showers, didn't the water controls or something on the walls look like little alien faces? As if to say "we could be all around" Or it could mean nothing. Just one more suggestive ambiguity. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-01-2000).] [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-02-2000).] [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-02-2000).] SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-02-2000 04:20 PM Nemo, I'm glad you caught the "red something." At the start of this thread a whole lot of us ran with the red giant idea, using it as the explanation for them leaving their home planet. Liz's line to the science teacher is: "Could there be a red star or a red something in this area that isn't on the chart?" I'm now starting to think we did see everything Liz saw. So either the red giant theory is a red herring the writers put out there to put us off track, or in addition to the black hole image they want us to know about the red star, hence the science teacher's reply. Nemo, you wrote: "One big asymmetry is that Liz is acutely aware of the image Max picked up, whereas he seems unconscious of what she saw." If all Max had seen were Liz's little kid memories, I could argue that the "connnection" only accessed deep/old/buried memories, but the fact that he could see her recent fantasy kind of negates that argument. It's probaly one of those loopholes we'll just have to ignore. The debate on this thread was really inconclusive as to whether the images were "ancestral memories" within Max, or orb generated. The camera angle on the final vision (the orb being buried) lends credence to the idea that they're orb generated. [This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-02-2000).] Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-02-2000 10:33 PM SF, thanks for your interest. And thanks for that tip about the camera angle; I missed that interpretation. About the red star business, what impresses me is that if we give the writers just a little license, so many things fit so well. I think we're supposed to believe: (1) that the Whirlwind Galaxy is where the aliens came from. Because of that extra detail Liz saw, that wasn't on the teacher's wall chart. This point does not depend on exactly what she saw or when or whether we saw it too. We believe she saw it because she asked the teacher about it. (2) that the aliens' home planet has already been destroyed (soon after they left). Because of that vision that looks like an explosion (item 3 in my post of 3/27), that comes after the aliens' journey starts but before they get far outside their galaxy. [A point of difference between vision item 2 and 3 (same list) is that 2 looks like straight-line star streaks as we zoom by, 3 looks like an explosion within a gravitational field, so that the debris arcs around and begins to fall back. I think we are supposed to imagine that their planet explodes from the sudden heat as the expanding red-giant star's "surface" makes contact with it (the suddenness being exaggerated as usual for visual effect); the gravitation would be that of the star.] (3) The cause of destruction is the expansion of their star as it grows into a red giant. I now think that, for the sake of a clear, vivid story, we are supposed to imagine this happening far more quickly than in the astronomy books. Even there, the final expansion is much faster than the slow reddening that precedes it, so the story still bears a clear resemblance to real astrophysics. I think we are also to imagine the aliens' home system as much like our own, perhaps with two inner planets that get engulfed before theirs. This may be symbolized by the repeated falling of the bowl of berries as Max and Liz grow suddenly ardent and heedless of their surroundings. (We trust that M/L's ardor will deviate from the red-giant pattern of sudden flareup after long cooling, soon followed by flame-out.) What was the "red something" that Liz asked the teacher about? We can deduce that it must have been seen, not just in isolation, but as part of a larger pattern of brighter stars, and from about the same perspective as from Earth, in order for her to recognize that pattern (minus the red thing) on the chart. The best chance for such a perspective would be around the time of leaving their galaxy, while still close enough to see that faint detail, but far enough to get the big picture. I believe Item 4 on the (3/27) list represents roughly that phase of the journey. Maybe she got a better look than we did. We shouldn't expect to be able to spot just which dot is the red thing in question. And what red thing was it? I incline to think it was the same red giant that caused the trouble; that would explain why enough attention was paid to it to remember it amid so many other stars. (Though it could have been any red star fainter than its surroundings that she noticed in any not-too-crowded region that formed a memorable pattern.) LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-04-2000 07:03 AM Just thought I'd pass on this info to the posters and lurkers on this thread. If you are interested in reading credible scientists write/talk about what are normally viewed as SF ideas then I would refer you to the Society for Scientific Exploration (they publish the Journal of Scientific Exploration). It is a learned society designed just for exploring issues commonly considered on the "fringe" of science. It has a website on which past articles are posted. Its officers are faculty from Princeton, Stanford, etc. To become a full member you have to be a publishing academic, but assoicate membership is open to all. And membership is not necessary to access the articles. It is really interesting reading for the intellectuals of you out there and I would recommend it highly. LSS thescoobygang Member Posts: 60 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-04-2000 07:33 PM Wow, it seems like everybody has a theory on this thread, so I hope you don't mind if I share a "Liz theory" I've been working on. In the pilot, in Blind Date, and in the "Last time on Roswell....." promo before SH, we glimpse that same brief childhood flashback of Max & Isabel in a crowded schoolyard passing by a young Liz Parker. I have to ask myself, "why is this scene being constantly replayed for us?" So I put the scene in slow-motion and saw the look of young Max as he watches Liz for the very first time. In truth, it doesn't really look like the stare of a love-struck boy but rather a scrutinizing look of ......recognition???? Am I reading too much into this? Why did he focus on HER in a crowd of kids? Why did Max Evans have a lifelong secret infatuation with a girl he never spoke a word to? Why was he COMPELLED to save her in the diner? The (childhood) scene itself, looks oddly out of place when put in conjunction with the other Liz images. We also know Max has a tendency to suppress feelings & memories to the point of amnesia. Could it be that his connection to Liz is also something buried so deep he can't recall? M/M/I were 6 yrs old when they "emerged", and in 10 yrs they have done ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to uncover their past.....that is until they meet Liz. Then BANG! All Hell breaks loose. If you think about it, Liz HAS been the catalyst for everything uncovered thus far. I'm not suggesting Liz is an alien, but she is no chance encounter. Sounds crazy? Sometimes what you think is the truth was never the truth at all, but rather a misdirection. Take a cue from the Sixth Sense; go back to the beginning and find the lie............ LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-05-2000 07:56 AM By the way, mindtrip has started a thread on aliens and their powers that is a promising SF theme related thread--check it out. stargazer__2000 Member Posts: 138 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-05-2000 01:02 PM Bump this baby before its gone into the abyss! Rebecca Member Posts: 249 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-05-2000 02:01 PM Greetings. I saw this thread weeks ago, but was too busy organizing Roswellfest NYC to stop and soak up the theories. Last week I was too busy with work, but this week...Ahhh it's taken me three days to read all 6 pages. This thread has been wonderful mental lubrication for me. I'm slightly less analytical and more spacial and visually inclined, so this thread has churned up some interesting ideas and questions. I'd like to go back to "Into the Woods" for a moment. At the beginning of the episode we see a couple, huddled together, looking startled, illuminated by a blueish light eminating off screen somewhere - this is the sighting described as a flash(s) of light which takes place not far from the cave. I have wondered if the flash came from the skies and hit the nearby ground or whether it eminated at ground level. I cannot recall clearly now, but I believe that the shot of the couple indicates that their line of sight was elivated, but only slightly, perhaps as if they were looking upwards towards a grassy hill or something. At the conclusion, the trio discovers the spiral symbol in the grass and Michael imparts that it means that Nasedo is back. Note that in Independence Day, when Nasedo shape changes in the car, the car's interior is engulfed in blueish light. The idea that Nasedo is an energy being is interesting, but for the conventions of this show and it's current low special effects budget, I suspect they will continue to portray him as corporeal. The blueish light simply treated as visible energy expenditure. Now about Sexual Healing by way of Leaving Normal. I have always been struck by Liz's reasoning about how she came to want to be a Molecular Biologist...in Leaving Normal she relates to Topolosky that when she entered a Chem lab the first time and smelled that smell - that sulfer smell - she knew she was home. Home. I've always suspected that twist of dialogue could mean something. Others on this thread are speculating about Liz's heritage, that perhaps very, very distantly she is slightly alien, a genetic remnant from a previous alien encounter in earth's past. And I found the "recognition" idea in the post above here somewhere, appealing, but again one of many theories. I hadn't entertained the idea that Liz had been altered by Max's healing until I read this thread and I'm slightly resisting the idea. I find Liz and Max's relationship so special because of the fact that she is (I'm still assuming at this point) fully human. She represents one of Max's important links to this world and his life on it. You know, come to think of it, alot of this reminds me of one of my all time favorite films "Altered States". I should watch that again. But regardless, Liz is the one receiving these visions. Why a human? Even if she has been altered or is a diluted genetic remnant, why her and not the aliens. In the pilot Max sent his perceptions, his feelings to Liz, he made the "connection go the other way", implying that memories, images, information can be directed into the mind of another by touch, and there was plenty of touching going on between Max and Liz in SH, but I perceived the visions to be from the POV of the orb. Like the Cocoon and the metal debris (from the Crash) that resumed it's natural shape after being twisted or bent, I perceive the orb and their technology in general, to be organic in nature, minimally sentient even. I suspect the orb could be, like someone already mentioned, a chronicle of, at the very least, their flight. A broadcast detectable to someone only under the right circumstances, or perhaps the right brain chemistry. Could be a flight recorder, distress beacon, information storage device, but it is most definately a signal. The way it lit up in a directed beam of blueish light, like a location flare. Liz and Max wait in the dessert all night, and who shows up? Nasedo. The idea that it is an alarm clock of some kind, or a beacon of alien puberty or mating behavior is plausible, and I certainly agree there was something "chemical" going on, but I'm choosing to be, for the time being, a little more conservative in my interpretation. Well, I must be off. My regards. Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-05-2000 10:11 PM [duplicate deleted] [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-06-2000).] Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-05-2000 10:28 PM [duplicate deleted] [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-06-2000).] Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-06-2000 06:46 AM Say, thescoobygang, I like your idea that Max's encounter with Liz is not by chance. It could explain two things for me: (1) We think we see why the aliens left their solar system, but why did they leave their galaxy? It has maybe 100 billion stars; ours has a different 100 billion. It's as if you live in Boston, your house burns down, you need to find another one, so you go to L.A. Why so far? I'd like to think, because that's where Liz will be. But how would anyone know that? Is this story going to involve time travel at some point? (2) The visions shown in SH appear to tell a travel story, as outlined above; the one exception that seems out of sequence is an image of Liz as a child, which appears after the aliens leave their galaxy and just before they enter ours. As if explaining why they picked this place. I agree with SF that this vision of Liz appears to be picked up by Max; one likely reason for showing it among the other visions is just to let us know that Max isn't getting left out, he's seeing things too. But so often on this show there's an obvious reason for something, and also a deeper reason. So many things work on two or more levels. (How much time goes into writing these intricate stories? To make so many things fit into two patterns at once must be a little like designing a crossword puzzle.) LSS Member Posts: 546 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-07-2000 06:46 AM Interesting theories--this takes the idea that M/L were "meant" to an entirely different level. LSS thescoobygang Member Posts: 60 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-08-2000 12:09 PM LSS/Nemo & conspiracy theory junkies, this one's for you: Remember how I said we should look to the pilot to uncover the truth? Well, in the pilot we all just ASSUMED Liz was shot by accident. But what if it WASN'T an accident? What if Liz was the INTENDED TARGET all along? Sounds ridiculous I know, but let me explain: In "the convention" Larry testifies that "2 guys came in.....They start having an argument....a gun is pulled. BOOM. A girl is shot." In the pilot the Deputy states, "....suspects RAN out after the incident occurred. Couple of OUTSIDERS. No apparent robbery. No injuries other than the girl... SEEMS like an argument got out of hand." And the description of the suspects? According to Maria they look like Beavis & Butthead. The whole thing sounds wierd & rehearsed. That 2 strangers would walk into a public place with a gun, argue, shoot, and run off TOGETHER seems odd. Why would you run off with someone who just tried to kill you? And POOF! They both just vanish. Now if you believe in the Nasedo is everywhere theory, then maybe Nasedo was the gunman in the diner. But why would he want to shoot Liz? 2 possibilites: 1) A test: to see if Max would use his powers to save Liz OR 2) to stop Max & Liz from getting together. At this point Max was already infatuated with her. In the pilot he even says, "I've thought about telling you(the truth) a thousand times." In this case, Max saving Liz was UNEXPECTED. *I'm leaning more to this idea. I agree with Nemo, that the writing works on so many levels, so anything is possible. I realize this has nothing to do with SH but unfortunately I can find no thread that discusses the pilot. So, what do you think? Piper88 Member Posts: 78 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-08-2000 01:31 PM Scoobygang: Great work--but I am honestly finding it difficult to respond because of the "spoiled" nature of my knowledge. Let me see if I can do the "spoiler shuffle" ... do I think that your reconstruction is possible? yes. Is there anything thus far in the storyline (up to SH) that would support your theory? Maybe--if the FBI suspected Max already (which we really don't know...Max assumes it is the healing that makes people suspect him). And IF nesedo is evil. But neither one of these has really been proven. Okay so far. Do I think that your theory can be substantiated with what I "know" in a more cosmic sense? I think a logical case might be made for it. Is my assumption based on the "maybe" I mentioned above? No. Gosh--that is about as far as I can go...you really did well to think of this angle on the pilot. I'm not sure that is what the writers intended, but it is a logical revisioning of what is going on. And you are right--this story operates on many levels. Your reconstruction gives me something to really think about. Thanks! LSS Roswell The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions (Page 7) This topic is 7 pages long: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: Some Questions Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-09-2000 05:47 PM In case anyone is still interested, here are some relative distances I found to get a perspective on the aliens' journey that SH hints at. (I made two assumptions, so your mileage may vary: Since the Whirlwind Galaxy is fictional, as far as I know, but is a "poster galaxy" on the wall of Liz's science classroom, I took its distance to be that of its photogenic counterpart, the Whirlpool Galaxy, M51. This distance is given variously as 15 to 38 million light-years, reflecting (I think) two schools of thought about the size of the Hubble constant. Since I don't know the outcome of the recent debate about that, I have simply taken the smaller distance. And I am not trying to pin things down better than a factor of two anyway.) Scale 1: Interstellar. If we picture the sun as a light bulb in Los Angeles, the earth would be a grain of sand orbiting 20 feet away, and the nearest star would be in Denver. There would be about 10 lights in North America, randomly spaced but typically 1000 miles apart. (Say one in Mexico, five in the U.S., and six in Canada?) Near ground level, that is. There would be another layer of 10 lights about 1000 miles up, and so on in all directions to the edge of the galaxy, which, on this scale (1000 miles = 4 light years) is like a pancake with a diameter 100 times that of the moon's orbit. The red giant that the sun is expected to become, as big as the orbit of Mars, would be about 60 feet across, the distance from a baseball pitcher's mound to home plate. (Normally this takes a few thousand million years. Over the first 3/4 of this time, as the sun cools from yellow-hot to "only" red-hot, it grows from light-bulb or baseball size to something less than a basketball. Only in the last quarter does it grow to cover half the infield. That's what I meant about a sudden speedup of the expansion.) So if Liz, in one of her visions, is watching this from far enough away to see other stars as well (because what she recognized later on the wall chart was a pattern of stars, not just one star), that's like seeing a brightly-lighted (but red) ball park from thousands of miles away; it would just be a red dot among the other dots. I think that's why, even if we see everything Liz saw, nothing is obviously recognizable as a red giant. Scale 2: Intergalactic. Now let's shrink this picture so that our galaxy is a city near Los Angeles, extending 10 miles in all directions. (1 foot = 1 light year; 200 miles = 1 million light years.) Our solar system is about 7 miles from downtown. Stars are typically 4 feet apart, out to city limits. The Andromeda Galaxy, M31, our nearest neighbor of similar size, is a little beyond San Francisco. These two large galaxies, plus a few dozen smaller ones all over California, constitute our local group. The Whirlwind Galaxy is around Boston. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-11-2000).] SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-10-2000 10:50 AM Nemo, thanks for putting in all that time to make the distance they travelled something we can relate to. I've always thought that making their trip intergalactic was a major blunder on the writers part. Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-11-2000 09:57 PM SF, thanks for your interest. I couldn't see your post until today, as if something got stuck with the thread or with my computer. I am thinking over your comment about intergalactic travel. Nemo Member Posts: 190 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-15-2000 12:38 AM SF, I can that intergalactic travel poses a big problem with travel time, unless one can exceed lightspeed or take a shortcut. But I think the writers have indicated that the aliens can do both. (It's not as if they have just ignored the problem.) So I am content to suspend disbelief for the sake of the story (even though, as a physicist, I don't consider either of these developments probable). So if we allow the writers this latitude, what advantages are gained? It gives them that subtle way of showing us (via the wall chart) where the aliens are from instead of telling us. It lets them give the place a name that stirs images: Whirlwind. (As in a whirlwind courtship, like Max and Liz. But also foreboding: whirlwinds as sudden and devastating.) It lets us picture the place with that galaxy symbol, which also ties in with ancient petroglyphs, according to ROSta and others, in case the writers want to go there sometime. [The hooks are in, right? Grandma Claudia was an expert on that, and Liz has her book. Also, after BD she also knows a college archaeology student she could consult, if he's not too annoyed with her.] Perhaps the remoteness heightens the romance. It also poses additional mysteries: Why did the aliens choose this place to come to? If they were from a neighboring part of our galaxy, it could be that they were looking for just anyplace else they could live after losing their home planet, and the presence of humans here might have been a surprise they learned about only as they got near. But for them to pass up the rest of their galaxy and come here instead suggests they chose this place because of something unusual that's here that they knew about beforehand. How intriguing! (Perhaps the writers will deal with this in some future season.) So maybe it's for the best. [This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-15-2000).] SF Member Posts: 62 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-15-2000 02:07 PM I'm suspending my disbelief, and just enjoying the story. Maybe part of the reason for picking a fictional galaxy that looks like one that's really far away is so that we, the audience, don't start trying to tie in too many astronomical facts into the story. This gives the writers more flexibility. The whole orb/communicator story line should be interesting. If they actually do call an alien spaceship from another galaxy, I'll be interested to see how they go about it. I liked your post on the subject over on the Crazy thread. Contact Us | Fan Forum Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com (c) 2000 Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.45b