Fan Forum - Roswell - The Science Fiction of Sexual Healing: The Anniversary Thread
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08-14-2000 06:31 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 SF Posters and Lurkers: This SF of [episode] thread marks a thread anniversary!! On March 3, 6:32am the first SF of [episode] thread was posted! It was on Sexual Healing. I have posted the original questions below along with post-Destiny addendums. Also, the SF Review/Commentary for this eppy is now up on the episode page.
Aside from the steamy sexual scenes, SH raises some intriguing questions for the Science Fiction framework of Roswell:
1. WHERE ARE THE ALIENS FROM? Prior to this we've just seen a constellation in the night skies. Now we have a suggested galaxy (The Whirlwind galaxy) and a possible star (a red giant)
POST-DESTINY POV: Actually, no further information was forthcoming on this issue in the last half of the season. Although we know their planet is in conflict, we have no idea how far (or near...say, on earth) that conflict is currently!
2. WHY ARE THE ALIENS ON EARTH? EMERGENCY LANDING VS DESTINATION? This is still not clear, but before this all we had was "crash" imagery (accident). With the visions of the alien craft in space, however, it almost appears that earth is more of a destination than an simply an emergency landing. Moreover, the fact that the aforementioned star is "dying" offers possibilities of an "exodus". [By the way--go back and look at the kitchen make-out scene again--does that look like a warp trip, explosion, and stellar debris field?]
POST-DESTINY POV: The momogram certainly left us with a sense of intentionality concerning our podsters placement on earth.But it also left us in the dark as to WHY earth was selected and HOW LONG the enemy presence has been here. And NOTHING was ever done with that kitchen vision. Maybe it was just intended to show Liz' orgasmic/explosive response to a serious Max in kissing mode instead of a star gone nova?
3. ARE INTERSPECIES SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS POSSIBLE? Although this has been a question throughout the series, it dominates this episode. Maria, Max and Liz all raise it, and glowing hickies/odd looking rashes/fevered sexual addiction all remind us that there are some very real physical barriers that need to be addressed. Moreover, the words of the science teacher (that most of the audience science teacher (that most of the audience are ignoring in favor of watching Max pass a note to Liz) are really Katims' reminder to us all: "The conceit that alien lifeforms would be like us in any essential way would be the wishful thinking of a lonely planet that once believed it was the center of the universe."
POST-DESTINY POV: Since, aside from the visions, Liz' physical symtoms NEVER occured after this eppy, we are still in the dark as to what they really meant.
And of course the science teacher's words, in the end, proved ironic...for our podsters turned out to be human/alien hybrids NOT truly "alien lifeforms." And they were "like us" in more ways than not! Though to what degree our podsters are really "alien" remains to be seen. If their powers are simply that of advanced humanity, then in what significant ways ARE they alien (aside from blood and skin cells)? What does having alien blood cells/skin cells, for example, "do"? How is this significant?
4. WHAT IS THE NATURE AND FUNCTION OF THE ALIEN ARTIFACT? On one level this is the narrative focus of this entire episode. In the first frame we see the broken radio tower in the desert and hear the beeping. The episode rapidly concludes after the artifact is found. Liz suggests it is a message beacon of sorts. Or is the message it is sending more personal? Ever ask yourself why the sexual frenzy begins after we first hear it?
POST-DESTINY POV: As far as the M/L/frantic make-out sessions are concerned, we never did find out if they were in any way influenced by the orb. We DID find out later that the "v" constellation had something to do with the "turning on" of their biological urges. But that really has nothing to do with the orb, does it? Nevertheless, I still maintain that the way this eppy was set up with the beeping as a framing device means SOMETHING (or at least it should have meant something). BTW--did the orb send a signal? To whom? Are we to think that all those others who "heard" the two orbs in Destiny DID NOT hear the single orb in SH? What is the range of a single orb...and do single orbs function in a different way than two in tandem do?
This eppy is historic in a number of ways--not only did it provide dreamgirls with more M/L scenes than they had up to this point (or would have, for that matter, in the rest of the season) but it also gave us some serious SF questions on which to ponder.
Well folks--the second time around--What do you think?
LSS
[Edited by LSS on 08-14-2000 at 06:38 PM]
08-14-2000 07:08 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Hello all, got my margin notes. thanks LSS for getting your review on Crashdown beforehand, and for the wonderful opening!
Going to try to answer the orb's purpose, with a question. Did anyone notice that the orb works fine until Max and Liz fall asleep. Then a "mysterious" shadow falls on them. Later, we assume that the shadow was from Nasedo-Rancher. In actuality, it could be two different people. Maybe GN/BN or an evil alien. What if the orb was swapped for something else to look like it. What if it's not the orb that drew Max and Liz, which is why it was hidden in the first place, perhaps because "enemies" wanted it? Or maybe Nasedo/tictac/rancher swapped it and that's why he's grinning like the Chester Cat!
I'll post more later--
From Nebraska QFanny!
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-14-2000 at 07:12 PM]
08-14-2000 07:18 PM
NicoleD
Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 261 Qfanny -- interesting point. I just assumed it was Nasedo...the dark skined man that was there when they woke that morning. The shadow I assumed was cast from that body he was using.
Also, because they have said that the Aliens are like humans, however, they use more of our brain power. If this is the case, I'm trying to figure out what it is about them that makes them totally different. Aside from the cells in their body.
~NicoleD~
08-14-2000 08:16 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 Thanks LSS for starting this new SCI FI thread. I just wanted to start with something in another episode that might be related to SH eppy. In UFO CONVENTION eppy at the booth that Max is in he reaches us and fixes the clock that has the word VENUS directly beneath or above it I forget which. As Max walks away with Mr Frakes I noted the time it said just to see and it said 2:20 and tried to think what this meant and then I remembered Liz saying at beginning of SH---Its Feb 20 I'm Liz Parker and lately I've been having these feelings,...." So what do you think?
QFANNY I put that speculation on the Liz IMPORT Thread awhile back how maybe the shadow over them was BN and then we cut away and come back to the scene of them sleeping and the first thing the camera shows is the orb and then Liz wakes up.....and then maybe GN is there smiling at them. BUT the orb was unprotected there for awhile---it could have been switched. Only speculation of course, nothing solid.
I thought the symbolism in this episode was incredible of a complete sexual encounter without the actual act, we even had faked orgasms.LOL! The only thing I can say about the critics of this episode was that you could only fully appreciate an episode like this one if you had watched all season, and I wonder about critics who just weigh in on a particular episode without the emotional investment which we Roswellians have.
08-14-2000 08:22 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Here's more. LSS, forgot to say congrats on the SciFi anniversary thead.
Here's go nothing. I probably have more quesitons than answers. Hope it's not too out there.
quote:
1. WHERE ARE THE ALIENS FROM?
Did you see the way Max light up (not literally) when Liz said she saw the whirlwind galaxy from him? Even if we don't really now where he the others are from, he thinks that it's from that galaxy, or around there. quote:
2. WHY ARE THE ALIENS ON EARTH? EMERGENCY LANDING VS DESTINATION?
I see a real dicotomy here. I lean more to a Crash. Liz says she saw the Crash from Max. alone is very weird. If the podsters originals perished in the "conflict" then how could Max have any memories of the Crash, burying the orb, etc. I'm looking for another answer. And I'm lifting from the Metz books. AKINOS could be an answer.
Could Liz's kitchen vision be Max's home world reaching out, searching? Maybe they are trying to reach Max and Max, still being a bit young, is unaware -but Liz can see them. Could one of the original aliens be trying to show Max and Liz were he left the orb? Could ëthey' be manipulating the hormone levels of Max and Liz from afar? Did Nasedo/TicTac slip into Liz's room and shot her up with something ëchemical' (thus the glowing hickie and rash from the shot entry point). Liz's room is MECCA for all visitors! A porthole to adventure! I have so many questions here-- My mind is rambling incoherantly.
quote:
3. ARE INTERSPECIES SEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS POSSIBLE? POST-DESTINY POV: Since, aside from the visions, Liz' physical symtoms NEVER occured after this eppy, we are still in the dark as to what they really meant.
I disagree. I think Liz and Max were used by an outside force to find the orb. The speculation from Isabel and Michael is good. The hidden camera is already in the Michael's apartment by the middle of the episode. Maybe the reason why that single camera is there is to check on the progress of the Max/Liz relationship and to know when they go to dig up the orb.
quote:
4. WHAT IS THE NATURE AND FUNCTION OF THE ALIEN ARTIFACT?
Anyone's guess. The more I think about this eppy from a Desting POV, the more I believe that Liz was used, but not by Max. Here's what I'm thinking. I'll probably retract this later.
Max's race is reaching out to him. Trying to force a connection. "Mysterious Alien or Human" knows what's happening. They manipulate the situation in an attempt to recover the orb to keep a truth away from the podsters. They swap it for one of there own, (maybe with a fake mommo-gram). It is in Crazy we learn that it's a communicator and they only work in pairs. Well, that cannot be true. The orb worked fine on its own. It shot light up when Liz and Max uncovered it. It made noise. It was working. Liz recognized the orb by it's sound.
Now, for the fun question LSS. How'd I like the second time.
I still want to be a fly on the wall in the Crashdown when Max and Liz walk in and see their parents.
Still love this eppy.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
08-14-2000 08:27 PM
Star2000monkey
Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 40 LSS, thanks for starting the new thread, and loved your sci-fi review.
First, another question that occurred to me -- did the 2nd orb (held by the special unit) also start beeping at the same time? Is that part of why activities sped up so much in the next couple weeks?
It seems to me that Liz and Max both have been effected by the orb (or whatever), and have been for some days. IMO the tension just broke in the kitchen, but in Liz' voiceover, the changes have been coming on.
I think it was Huggybehr in the Importance of Liz thread who suggested that some change occurred in BD, during the kiss. Watching that, I agree! Maybe that declaration, for thats the way I see that kiss - it was different from any other kiss before or after it - started the events that happened afterwards,that and the constellations aligning. How else can you explain Liz being impacted by the orb, since she is not a podster? Maybe we should accept Michael's premise that they were meant to connect with humans (which also answers your question 3 - then they must be able to mate with humans) to start learning about themselves. It may also answer why they were made human (with some essence mixed in) instead of left as all alien.
08-14-2000 08:44 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 Star2000Monkey I so agree I do think the V constellation alligned or something during that kiss in Blind Date and that started the BIO urges-in Independ Day eppy, Liz says "I try to stay away but I cannot help myself, he obviously feels the same way" They already wanted to be together but were put on hold by Michaels problems in ID with Hank.
08-14-2000 08:49 PM
-mayfae-
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 163 -anyone have any thoughts on 'the red giant' and if will be incorperated into the scheme of things post-destiny or just forgotten
-mayfae-
08-14-2000 09:30 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 What if the two orbs were to facilitate the bonding(physical) of the mated pairs?
The positioning of the celestial bodies in the V formation was in the near future; the awakening of biological drives in the podsters was beginning; the orb began to "call". These events could all be tied together in the following way:
1. The podsters for some reason were timed to incubate so their biological awakening would coincide with the alinement of the V formation. 2. The biological awakening would necessitate providing a mate for each podster to bond with. Apparently, the aliens wanted, or knew the podsters would want to pair off. 3. The orbs were programmed much like the podsters - to work in pairs. Max and his mate to one orb, Iz and her mate(Max's second-in-command) to the other. 4. The orbs probably do more than just playback the message. They are too complex for so simple a task. We may find out they do alot more. 5. If the orbs are important for the podsters to posess for various reasons, then it is equally important that ONLY THEY have the orbs, and are able to use them. Perhaps the orbs are "tuned" to only their signature "frequencies". 6. Pierce had the second orb(I/M's) during the time when Isabel and Michael seemed to have their awakening(4sq). We don't know if it was shielded in any way, damaged, out of range, etc. Even if it was fully functional and giving off blue light at the time, we have no way of knowing it and Pierce never said. 7. As for the Max/Tess orb, Liz has, for whatever reason, become Max's mate. Perhaps the orb was designed to "call" him when his signature energy output was high - like when in the presence of his stimulating mate. This would occur only when he was old enough for the biological awakening - and presumably old enough to understand the message. 8. When in the heat of passion, Max gave off his signature frequency, stimulating not only Liz, but the orb's "directional finder" (for lack of a better word). 9. A podster and their pre-ordained mate were suposed to give each other flashes of subconscious thoughts - a mental way of becoming intimate with one's mate. Max began doing this with his chosen mate, but because the orb was trying to "find" or connect with him, he was sending subconscious flashes the orb was giving him. This may have worked under non-crash circumstances as well, but the orb would have been already safely in their posession, and the orb may not have been programmed to "call" him if it detected him in very close proximity. After he picked it up, it seemed to shut down again - safe in its owner's arms, like a baby crying. Maybe it will never did this again, because Max did not go through his awakening again. Perhaps only in "Sexual Healing" was Max being biologically awakened, and able to produce the glowing hicky, the glowing orb, the glowing skin on Liz, the subconscious flashes, etc. 10. The other orb may have been out of range to work for Mi/I; it may not have been stimulated enough to call either of them, since those two never did get excited over each other outside of a dream; it may even have been slightly damaged in some respects by government testing or the crash.
One other thing: the alien that was carrying the orb and eventually burried it - who was it? Since the orb was not recovered till Max found it, the object had been successfully hidden. That means that whoever hid it evaded the soldiers long enough to burry it pretty deep, and get away from the area so the military didn't realize where it had been left. Other wise they would have been able to find it in over half a century, and Pierce would have already had it by WR. Pierce said there were four captured. Two dead, two alive. One escaped. How many weren't captured? Did any get away? If not, then which one had this orb, the one who was in captivity for three years, or the one that escaped? Since it was Tic-tac who was standing over M/L in the desert, does that mean he knew where it was burried because he was the one that burried it?
If someone else has posted similarly, sorry, I looked at the thread quite some time ago (only two posts), and I have been writing off-line at my leasure. My appologies if I seem redundant or a plagiarist.
08-14-2000 10:08 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 646 I missed out on this thread the first time around, so I may also be redundant... I do think that the guy standing over them was Tic-tac... he was the same man that Nasedo shapeshifted into at the end of ID. He looked very pleased that they found the orb... so my question is, if he knew where it was, why wasn't he in possession of it already? Maybe he didn't know where it was... or... maybe, as was suggested, it was only for Max & co. to find because it would function only for them. Remember at the end of Destiny, Harding didn't know how to work the orb (or at least, that's what he pretended if he really didn't). So if the Nasedos didn't know how to operate them, or couldn't, then that would mean that they WERE only for the podsters, and they were calling to them (or Max, in this case).
That's all my poor tired little brain could think of at the moment.
08-14-2000 11:23 PM
Kim648
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 149 Happy Anniversary!! I wish I had been here when this thread started!!
Okay, to start off I'll talk about the orb. Okay, the first thing is, when your seeing the orb burried, it is from the orb's point of view, which I found very odd. I think this must mean the orb was sending the message? It couldn't be Max's memory since he wouldn't have hatched yet, unless the orb put it in his memory or something. I was thinking that maybe the first 'mission' of the orb was to be 'found' then the second was to give the message? I think this orb wasn't switched but was just happy to be in it's owners hands, like Palomino (sorry if I spelled wrong) said. But then, if the other orb was one of the other pod's, then why didn't it start trying to alert them, did it need to be close enough? I'm sure that it didn't change physically at all, or Pierce would think he knew how to work it, or knew what it was. I think that maybe Tictac did know that the orb was there but he was just the protecter of them, so he did not interrupt. Notice another difference between him and Harding is that he stays back while Harding comes in.
About the alien/human relationship... I was thinking at first, maybe the glowing hickies and rashes were normal. Just a question...when he made her arm glow, was it just a glowing on top, or was her actual skin glowing? It's not like human/human relationships never get 'byproducts' like hickies, it just may be on another level. But when Max gets a vision of him and Tess together, in a later episode, it seems there's nothing unusual, also when Isabelle and Michael dream about each other. Maybe the camera was placed there by Tictac to make sure they didn't go too far to hurt each other(physically).
Well that's all for now, maybe more later.
Kim
08-14-2000 11:30 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 LSS, Your wonderfully romantic subtitle was delightfully surpassed by the smilies arrangement.
And, just to prove that I at least skimmed everything (have been up since 3:30 am and just got back from the last class of my Masters degree): Star2000monkey, good point: If the orb Liz & Max dug up caused the other orb to go off, that could explain why the Hardings show up shortly after (unless he was already a double agent in the FBI Special Unit and had heard about the waitress uniform w/bullet hole, ketchup, etc.).
What I really wanted to add is this: Liz's mom was alarmed and annoyingly prying from the audience POV. Perhaps Mommogram's message was set to sound an annoying, distracting alarm when her darling son started to bond with someone--and maybe not just physically, since there was a clear difference between the Maria/Michael thing and the Liz/Max thing.
Also, I think they did actually consumate the relationship. The sci fi effect of that event is open to the imagination; it would also have predictable effects on the dynamics of their relationships with each other, their parents, and their friends. There are many clues to the consumation, beginning with the strawberry symbolism and Liz telling Maria she wanted to do it, all the way to the last scene where she confesses to Max her feelings of possibly being 'used.' In real life there are biological reasons why Liz would be likely to have gotten pregnant at the height of her desires, but since proof of the act has been left discreetly hidden, I don't think we are going there. I could be wrong about this, of course.
A question for you astronomer types (Palomino, Nemo, amx?): Would a dying red planet seen from a few thousand miles away look anything like Liz's vision?
08-15-2000 12:50 AM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 601 Just popping in quickly.
Firstly, happy anniversary! I think the inaugural version of this thread was the one that you lured me into LSS - and I thank you again for that!
To all the posters, new and old on these threads - thanks for sharing your insight with us all.
shapeshifter - Betelguese is a red giant and it is visible through most good quality terrestrial telescopes. However, our view is limited to a red fuzzy blob (the fuzziness is a consequence of atmospheric turbulance). Indeed, this is the view of most things astronomical that you get from earth. The only real exceptions are planetary nebulae, which are stars that have cast off their outer shells, in which case you can see a small disk of gas surrounding a central star.
Even better views are possible from space. Hubble, for example, has been able to detect white dwarfs several billion light years distant. Seeing them isn't a problem, its actually resolving them that the tricksy bit.
But, that isn't really what you were asking. I guess that the short answer is maybe -if the galaxy were sufficiently close (ie within a range that would allow it to be resolved in detail). I suspect, however, that a degree of artistic freedom is present in the 'vision galaxy' representation.
amx
08-15-2000 02:56 AM
JanetMG
Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 276 Just popping in to say Happy Anniversary!
08-15-2000 03:11 AM
Lameduck
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 69 Just coming in to say I don't believe that they consumated the relationship. It's just too major an event for it to happen off screen as it were. As for the strawberry symbolism, If he had eaten the strawberry, then I would have said yes, but by handing it back to her, I would say no, it didn't happen.
08-15-2000 03:27 AM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Kim, You're right! The vision Liz sees from Max is from the orbs POV. So I'll have to think on it and revise my theory. It's too out there to begin with!
But I am still convinced that Max and Liz are being used during this episode. And the orb that they find was swapped with the a replacement.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
08-15-2000 04:58 AM
plumeria
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 981 The whole thing with the orb gets to me -- why does the orb behave so differently in this ep than the rest of the season?
The orb gives off that beeping signal. Why has no one heard it until now? What makes it stop beeping just because it's been dug up?
It's presumably been sending out a light beacon as a signal, too, which was not visible because it was buried, but which became visible the minute M/L cleared away the dirt blocking it. Why? Who is it signalling to? And why does it immediately stop beaming?
Even though it stops beaming (ala the batsignal evil max sends in M2M) the symbol still glows. But it's not glowing at the end of the ep nor in any other episode. Does it just glow in the dark but not daylight?
That's all I can think of for now...
08-15-2000 05:42 AM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Plumeria : This was my #9 and 10 above:
9. A podster and their pre-ordained mate were suposed to give each other flashes of subconscious thoughts - a mental way of becoming intimate with one's mate. Max began doing this with his chosen mate, but because the orb was trying to "find" or connect with him, he was sending subconscious flashes the orb was giving him. This may have worked under non-crash circumstances as well, but the orb would have been already safely in their posession, and the orb may not have been programmed to "call" him if it detected him in very close proximity. After he picked it up, it seemed to shut down again - safe in its owner's arms, like a baby crying. Maybe it will never did this again, because Max did not go through his awakening again. Perhaps only in "Sexual Healing" was Max being biologically awakened, and able to produce the glowing hicky, the glowing orb, the glowing skin on Liz, the subconscious flashes, etc. 10. The other orb may have been out of range to work for Mi/I; it may not have been stimulated enough to call either of them, since those two never did get excited over each other outside of a dream; it may even have been slightly damaged in some respects by government testing or the crash.
I think the orb acting up had to do with his biological awakening, either detecting it, causing it, or being triggered by Max's energy output when he became passionate with Liz.
.....Of course there could be dozens of other explainations.
08-15-2000 06:27 AM
Miss Roswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 449 oooops!
[Edited by Miss Roswell on 08-15-2000 at 06:41 AM]
08-15-2000 06:27 AM
Miss Roswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 449 . As for the Max/Tess orb, Liz has, for whatever reason, become Max's mate. Perhaps the orb was designed to "call" him when his signature energy output was high - like when in the presence of his stimulating mate. This would occur only when he was old enough for the biological awakening - and presumably old enough to understand the message. 8. When in the heat of passion, Max gave off his signature frequency, stimulating not only Liz, but the orb's "directional finder" (for lack of a better word). 9. A podster and their pre-ordained mate were suposed to give each other flashes of subconscious thoughts - a mental way of becoming intimate with one's mate. Max began doing this with his chosen mate, but because the orb was trying to "find" or connect with him, he was sending subconscious flashes the orb was giving him. This may have worked under non-crash circumstances as well, but the orb would have been already safely in their posession, and the orb may not have been programmed to "call" him if it detected him in very close proximity. After he picked it up, it seemed to shut down again - safe in its owner's arms, like a baby crying. Maybe it will never did this again, because Max did not go through his awakening again. Perhaps only in "Sexual Healing" was Max being biologically awakened, and able to produce the glowing hicky, the glowing orb, the glowing skin on Liz, the subconscious flashes, etc.
Ooooohhh, I like that!!! Good observation and comment. I haven't heard that one before but I think it really makes sense.
I also want to add that I don't think that M&L consumated their relationship. I feel that if they did (or will) that would be an important part of the storyline and there wouldn't be any guessing because we WOULD know.
Crystal
[Edited by Miss Roswell on 08-15-2000 at 06:39 AM]
08-15-2000 08:14 AM
Karst
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 199 Hi Everybody.
QFanny: This hasn't been mentioned more recently in the thread, so you may have already dropped the idea, but I don't think the camera was placed in Michael's apartment to spy on Max and Liz. Since Michael is the only one (human or alien) with his own place, he has the most privacy. No parents to snoop. So logically, it would be a good place for activity they don't want anyone to notice, including their parents. Actually, with such a place for their conversations, I'm surprised they talk so openly at the Crashdown. So I think the camera was put there to spy on all of them. I wonder what Pierce thought of watching all the Max/Liz action?
Palomino: I don't have the attention span to go over all your points, but I like your ideas about the orb wanting Max to find it, and then shutting back down once he got it. Since the podsters were meant to be paired up, maybe each podster would have gotten visions: for example, if Michael and Isabel had been attracted to each other, maybe they could have triggered visions in each other of the other orb (at least if it had been within range). Of course, why the podsters don't just have a direct vision is not explained. Could be a technique to help draw the couples together.
In general:
I think we would have seen more if the orbs had been switched. I think Tic-Tac was just happy Max had found the orb. Actually, it is possible Tic-Tac didn't know where it was, depending on who buried it.
But even if Tic-Tac knew where the orb was but left Max alone to find it, that actually reminds me of Harding. With Michael, Harding is actually pretty chatty. He seems to have told Liz something about Destiny. Tess knows quite a lot about various things. Harding just clams up around Max. It struck me that Harding wanted Max to assert himself in the pod chamber scene, rather than just hand the leadership position to him on a platter. It's kind of like testing Max to see if he's ready. I don't know how Tic-Tac and Harding coordinate their actions, or exactly to what degree (of course), but I don't see them as opposed. In fact, maybe Tic-Tac first located the three, and then summoned Harding (with Tess in tow).
Karst
08-15-2000 08:19 AM
JKJBluv
Obsessed Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 1655 just sharing and celebrating my love of Sexual Healing
08-15-2000 08:47 AM
Elliott
Addicted Fan Registered: Jan 2000 Posts: 964 Well I haven't really been watching the ROSWELL reruns this summer, but I did catch last night -- I mean it WAS 'Sexual Healing' -- one of the best episodes of the season. Aside from being a love feast for Max/Liz fans and a banquet for the eyes (JB = So Fine) this episode beautifully illustrates ROSWELL at its best. The romantic/sexual escapades were provocative from an action/adventure/sci-fi viewpoint, but the more mundane and humanistic permutations of sex and romance were not ignored. I think the scenes between Liz and her Mom were excellently written -- the complex issues raised by a teenager's growing sexual independence and the pain and confusion it can cause a loving parent, were perfectly realized.
But as is often the case with ROSWELL, from a sci-fi perspective, we got mixed messages. For one thing, are the orbs simple communication/homing devices (as seemed decided by 'Destiny') or did they influence the sexual heat that Max and Liz were in as suggested by 'SH'? This episode (misleadingly?) made it seem that Max and Liz's passion was somehow linked to the orb and it's discovery. As Tepp pointed out some time ago, the scene of Max and Liz frenziedly digging up the orb was nothing less than the symbolic consummation of their affair (complete with grunts, sweat and a stunning, illuminating orgasm).
However later episodes seem to suggest that it is the alignment of the constellation Venus that triggered this lust. Certainly that was why Tess was introduced at that time, complete with her own manipulative visions with which she hoped to substitute herself for Liz while Max was at the 'peak' of his tumescence (is it getting warm in here, or is it just me?)
And this raises the central question -- since she is not an alien, why was Liz just as influenced as Max? And why does she (alone among her kind) get visions just as the aliens do? Again, we get back to the idea (strongly favored by me) that Max has somehow 'changed' Liz forever. We know he has emotionally, just as she has changed him. But what about physically? And if not physically, perhaps in another way? Are they now on the same psychic wavelength somehow, and is this what Liz's body is responding to? And how long will we have to wait for them to be reunited and for some of these questions to be answered?
By the way Shapeshifter, when 'Sexual Healing' first aired, I was a strong proponent of the idea that Max and Liz may well have had sex out in the desert that night. Two things changed my mind. 1. A cut scene in which it was made somewhat explicit that Max and Liz remained out in the desert because they thought the orb might act up again (thus removing the idea that they decided to stay out there to follow up on their frenzy for each other) and 2. because in an interview at the end of the season, Jason Behr made it clear that they were still all virgins by the end of 'Destiny.' I do think the producers and the WB may have wanted to keep the audience guessing, especially since a long hiatus of reruns followed 'SH,' but we are now clearly meant to think that nothing sexual occurred after the orb was found, though M & L's behavior afterward was certainly post-coital in tone.
[Edited by Elliott on 08-15-2000 at 08:56 AM]
08-15-2000 08:49 AM
Star2000monkey
Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 40 Palomino - loved your synopsis of all the points, and particularly your idea of M/I being too far away for it to effect them.
To flesh out my idea on the BD kiss. Max' job was to convince Liz to choose him - a very biologically common practice for the male to put on a show to capture the female from rivals. He sends her visions (remember in Balance when he said they originally communicated with each other telepathically - indicating this is natural for their kind), what I thought of as "terms of endearment" - of the times that meant the most to them as a couple. I think that was the bonding ceremony between a telepathically linked pair, maybe made possible by the reverse connection in Pilot. The physical bonding would come later, maybe necessary, maybe not. Remember that albatrosses are mated for years before they first actually mate physically. Why not this species as well?
Anyway, this pairing or bonding started the later sequences, and would explain why Liz sees the information, not Max. I don't think they consummated their relationship physically but that may not have mattered one way or another: their bond was used to help the podsters find the orbs.
If true, all this really points to the podsters being left on Earth on purpose, intended to mate with humans, and that TicTac was merely to watch out for them from the background until the time was right (maturity). Maybe they wanted to make sure they bonded with humans. Reminds me of sheep dogs who are placed in sheep pens as young pups so that they grow up feeling like the sheep are their family and are thus extra-protective of them.
Any comments?
08-15-2000 09:22 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote:
Originally posted by Star2000monkey To flesh out my idea on the BD kiss. Max' job was to convince Liz to choose him - a very biologically common practice for the male to put on a show to capture the female from rivals....I think that was the bonding ceremony between a telepathically linked pair, maybe made possible by the reverse connection in Pilot.
....If true, all this really points to the podsters being left on Earth on purpose.... Maybe they wanted to make sure they bonded with humans. Reminds me of sheep dogs who are placed in sheep pens as young pups so that they grow up feeling like the sheep are their family and are thus extra-protective of them.
Any comments?
Hi Starmonkey!
I think your observations on the visions in BD are very plausible--I have often wondered if they were a type of persuasion (intentional or unintentional) on Max's part.
As for your comments on dogs/sheep...I found them utterly fascinating! There is cut dialogue from Destiny that strengthens the idea of our podsters's "mission on earth." Also, don't forget Michael's statement that maybe this is the way it was intended to be..a statement that I found interesting because it comes out of "nowhere" so to speak.
BTW--another statement that "comes out of nowhere" is the one by Max as he enters the kitchen. It is easy to forget since the kissing scene is next, but he remarks (a joke?) about his people sending him to take over the planet (which is, perhaps, what we might expect of a "bad" alien to say). It is out of character for Max to joke like this (of course the following scene was so out of character that it forever addicted dreamgirls to strawberries from that point on, LOL!)
LSS
08-15-2000 09:38 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote:
Originally posted by Palomino What if the two orbs were to facilitate the bonding(physical) of the mated pairs? ....
7. As for the Max/Tess orb, Liz has, for whatever reason, become Max's mate. Perhaps the orb was designed to "call" him when his signature energy output was high - like when in the presence of his stimulating mate. This would occur only when he was old enough for the biological awakening - and presumably old enough to understand the message. 8. When in the heat of passion, Max gave off his signature frequency, stimulating not only Liz, but the orb's "directional finder" (for lack of a better word). 9. A podster and their pre-ordained mate were suposed to give each other flashes of subconscious thoughts - a mental way of becoming intimate with one's mate. Max began doing this with his chosen mate, but because the orb was trying to "find" or connect with him, he was sending subconscious flashes the orb was giving him. This may have worked under non-crash circumstances as well, but the orb would have been already safely in their posession, and the orb may not have been programmed to "call" him if it detected him in very close proximity. After he picked it up, it seemed to shut down again - safe in its owner's arms, like a baby crying. Maybe it will never did this again, because Max did not go through his awakening again. Perhaps only in "Sexual Healing" was Max being biologically awakened, and able to produce the glowing hicky, the glowing orb, the glowing skin on Liz, the subconscious flashes, etc. 10. The other orb may have been out of range to work for Mi/I; it may not have been stimulated enough to call either of them, since those two never did get excited over each other outside of a dream; it may even have been slightly damaged in some respects by government testing or the crash.
Hi Palomino:
I really like your thoughtful analysis of the orb's functioning aka the sexual frenzy we see in SH. Just a couple of observations and questions...
1) If it is Max's signature that is being sent out, why does Liz receive the army visions, etc.? It seems that these visions are a bit different from those initmate glimpses into each others lives that could well serve, as you noted, to bond them.
2) If M/I are outside the range, then why do M/M experience at least one way visions?
3) If Max is producing the physical symtoms in Liz, then one must ask to what end? What do you think that glowing hickeys "do"? (Aside from being night lights in parked jeeps, LOL). On the original SF of SH thread someone suggested (was it you Elliot?) that this seems almost like alien estrus (heat) and the signs might signify ovulation (or an alien equivalent). Any ideas Palomino about those physical syptoms you say Max is evoking?
Again--nice logical extrapolation--a joy to read!
LSS
08-15-2000 11:05 AM
huggybehr
Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 165 quote:
Originally posted by Star2000monkey
To flesh out my idea on the BD kiss. Max' job was to convince Liz to choose him - a very biologically common practice for the male to put on a show to capture the female from rivals. He sends her visions (remember in Balance when he said they originally communicated with each other telepathically - indicating this is natural for their kind), what I thought of as "terms of endearment" - of the times that meant the most to them as a couple. I think that was the bonding ceremony between a telepathically linked pair, maybe made possible by the reverse connection in Pilot. The physical bonding would come later, maybe necessary, maybe not. Remember that albatrosses are mated for years before they first actually mate physically. Why not this species as well?
Anyway, this pairing or bonding started the later sequences, and would explain why Liz sees the information, not Max. I don't think they consummated their relationship physically but that may not have mattered one way or another: their bond was used to help the podsters find the orbs.
If true, all this really points to the podsters being left on Earth on purpose, intended to mate with humans, and that TicTac was merely to watch out for them from the background until the time was right (maturity). Maybe they wanted to make sure they bonded with humans.
We are definately on the same page here! I think this is what I was trying to articulate on my previous post on the importance of Liz to the alien mythology thread, but you have said it so much better. I have nothing to add!
08-15-2000 11:13 AM
Barrybud Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 185 Hi LSS,
As always U bring up many valid points. Will they be able to consummate their relationship? Early signs seem to show that Liz's body is going to have a very difficult time with it all. (come on BBBers not the package, keep your minds out of my world for just a few moments!)In SH she was already showing signs of rejection. The long burning fever is the body in self defense mode. As much as she may want to, she may not survive the encounter or if she does I think their plans (if they have any) for children will be out of the question. Although our podsters may appear human, we alread know from the pilot that at the cell level they are not! If the writers want this to be believable they need to stick to the fact that 2 different species cant reproduce. This is where I think Tess comes into play. I have said this from early on and have taken severe verbal beatings for it. I think that if the podsters need to procreate, it will have to be with one another and not with their human partners. Linda, any comments here?
Ater reading your post, I thought of a Star Trek Next Gen. ep. Of course i cant remember the name, but in the show they had to put this object together. at the end of the show they were on a planet with several other species all on the same quest. Just b4 all fighting with each other our fearless crew put the last clues together. Right in front of them appears a "Mom-o-gram" of there own telling them that they spread their seed across many galaxies on many planets. How they should all just get along because of the common history. Anyone remeber this?
Barry
[Edited by Barrybud on 08-15-2000 at 11:26 AM]
08-15-2000 12:07 PM
Star2000monkey
Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 40 Thanks guys for all the positive feedback.
LSS -- there is also the statement by Pierce in WR about he was trying to stop them from colonizing the earth. Pierce seems to have no questions about Max being with Liz - IMO again supporting the idea that they were meant to intermix.
About Liz having difficulty adapting, remember that she was not in pain or anything -- Max and Maria had to even point the hickie out to her. As far as the fever is concerned, women's temperatures do increase during ovulation, and Liz doesn't seem to be bothered by it. Her mother has to point it out to her. So I'm not so sure that this is just part of the alien influence and not harmful at all.
As far as interbreeding, we only know the blood types are different. We have no way of knowing if they would be compatible or not. Different blood types amongst humans cause few problems (at least until birth, if then). Since the podsters are 100% human with alien essence (whatever that means!), their blood just more advanced, it might mean that one may have derived from the other. Therefore, they might not be incompatible at all. Perhaps the alien blood is "dominant" while the other is "recessive". As far as conception is concerned, the DNA is the key. I don't think blood type has any effect (per se) on DNA. Does anyone with more knowledge about this have any info to help on this point? I admit biology is not my field of expertise!
08-15-2000 12:12 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote:
Originally posted by Barrybud Will they be able to consummate their relationship? Early signs seem to show that Liz's body is going to have a very difficult time with it all....In SH she was already showing signs of rejection. The long burning fever is the body in self defense mode. As much as she may want to, she may not survive the encounter or if she does I think their plans (if they have any) for children will be out of the question. ... This is where I think Tess comes into play. I have said this from early on and have taken severe verbal beatings for it. I think that if the podsters need to procreate, it will have to be with one another and not with their human partners. Linda, any comments here? [Edited by Barrybud on 08-15-2000 at 11:26 AM]
Hi Barry!
Your post brings up two issues.
LIZ' PHYSICAL REACTION. There are a variety of ways one can understand the symptoms that Liz has in this episode:
1) Rejection of Max physically (this is what your post assumed), OR 2) Physical reaction that is superficial and not in the long run significant, OR 3) Physical adaptation to Max (necessary for a prolonged sexual exposure to Max), OR 4) Something that is totally alien and as yet unexplained--i.e., mating symptoms prior to ovulation, etc.
LIZ/MAX/TESS AND PROCREATION. Obviously, how you answer the dilemma you posed is in part dependent on how you interpret Liz' symtoms. (i.e. if you chose 2-4 above there may not be a problem).
On the other hand, you must realize that Roswell represents a dual genre story. It is both Romance and SF. Without getting into a Liz/Tess debate here and sticking solely to the question you posed, would the species issue be a deciding factor in Max' pair-bonding? Not necessarily. Remember that:
1) Roswell as Romance Genre -- stands in a long tradition of stories that image true love overcoming any obstacle.
2) Roswell as SF Genre -- stands in a tradition that can employ the fantastic as long as one gives a plausible scientific explanation.
Thus, these genres provide impetus (romance) and a vehicle (SF) for discovering a way to keep the M/L relationship going SHOULD THE WRITERS SO DESIRE.
When SF and Romance collide--the old adage is really true...where there is a will there is a way...!!!
LSS
08-15-2000 01:55 PM
Au Lac
Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 49 Just a minor, albeit still important, point...
Michael and Maria DID share visions. Well, actually it was only one way, but Michael in the end did say that he did see Maria when she was a little girl, tying her red sneakers while crying with her dalmation pet. Michael also insinuated that the reason Maria DIDN'T see anything was that HE was the one who was emotionally closed off and therefore not Maria's fault.
The audience simply didn't get to see the special effects.
Isabel and Alex on the other hand experienced nothing. Partly, in my opinion, that their feelings for each other aren't necessarily "genuine" as well as not as being fully developed as M/M and M/L.
08-15-2000 03:23 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 Star2000Monkey I agree with you I thought Liz was experiencing the elevated temperature like females do when they are ovulating. And although I think the sexual frenzy actually came about in end of Blind date, I also think what I said b4 Max setting the clock in UFO CONVENTION eppy to 2:20 under Venus was a clue---Feb 20th--later in ep of SH Liz says "I know we have to do it tonight!
08-15-2000 03:33 PM
allie0875
Fan Registered: Apr 2000 Posts: 15 Happy Anniversary!!
Qfanny- I agree that we know that the orbs donít have to be put together to work. The first time we saw the orb it was with Liz and Max. It was beeping and glowing and obviously the thing that was leading them to that spot. That is the last time we know for sure that it was the real orb. The next time we see it is when Liz and Max are asleep being watched by a stranger (Tic-Tac or Harding?). It would have been very easy to switch the orbs before Liz and Max awoke.
GraceKel- I remember the first time I saw SH, I was surprised that the orb was just out in the open where anyone could see it. I never thought that it could have been switched until I read your post. Letís say that the orb was switched. It changes everything that the podsters and we claim as ěfactî. If the man that found Liz in the desert switched it and if it wasnít Harding then that means that Tic-Tac could be in cahoots with Tess and Harding. Like I stated above we know that the orbs worked in the presence of Liz and without the other podsters and/or the other orb, but now it seems as if that is the only way it will work. It also suggests, that the Mom-o-gram would not be the correct message and one that Tic-Tac/Harding/Evil aliens manipulated or created. This would allow the writers to eventually change the podsters ěDestinyî. Which as a dreamgirl, couldnít make me happier. If you canít tell (LOL), Iím really like the switched orb theory. Kim648- I never noticed how it seems the people we believe are Tic-Tac do stay back and the ones we believe are Harding seems to come into everyoneís ěpersonal spaceî. I believe that this is a good example for the believers of the Tic-Tac/Harding theory. It was just another convincing argument for me to believe that there are 2 other aliens.
LameDuck ń I love your interpretation of the strawberries in SH (LOL) and I have to agree with you that I do not believe that Max and Liz consummated their relationship.
Huggybehr- I am a believer of Liz being changed during the reverse connection in the Pilot. I do not believe that it was a physical change but an awakening of her mental/telepathic abilities that for some reason is dormant in present day humans. I agree with your that there seems to be a ěconsummatedî telepathic connection between Liz and Max. I never thought of this before, but I have to agree that it is very plausible.
Barrybud- I do believe that the podsters and the respective humans are physically compatible. The reason I think this is because in WR Harding said that the podsters are just like present day humans except that they were advanced several thousand years. I can not believe that the advance of the human race could change us so much that there would be compatibility issues between humans at different times in history. If this were true, that would suggest that present day humans would be incompatible with previous versions of man, for example, cavemen. Please let me know if I am completely off base here because I know that there are many people on this board more knowledgeable than me on this subject.
I donít know how this post got so long since I am usually a lurker. Thanks for letting me ramble.
Allie0875
[Edited by allie0875 on 08-15-2000 at 03:39 PM]
08-15-2000 04:17 PM
Miss Roswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 449 I have a question about SH, and I really didn't pick up on it before. I remember hearing it but it didn't click until now.
When Liz was having the vision of the *something* being buried in the desert, you see the Army men etc. While they are showing that particular scene, who was like grunting or making the out of breath noises that we hear while the Army is looking for whatever???? If it was the orb giving off the vision, then who/what was grunting???
Can someone help me????
08-15-2000 05:13 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Miss Roswell : The heavy breathing would have been from whoever was carrying and burried the orb. Maybe the orb latched onto M/L because it mistook them for its owner when they started the heavy breathing too.
LSS : Your original questions, with answers below:
1.) If it is Max's signature that is being sent out, why does Liz receive the army visions, etc.? It seems that these visions are a bit different from those initmate glimpses into each others lives that could well serve, as you noted, to bond them.
The orb could be sending subconscious messages that Max is passing on to his mate. Since they should be together when they use the orb, it makes sense that they give each other the visions on how to find it. The orb does not recognize Liz. Maybe if Tess were there, it would not have taken days to find it, but maybe only minutes. Max is passing on the subconscious message from the orb, just as Liz is sending subconscious messages to Max, but since she is not recieving from the orb, her message is just her own memories. Since the orb is probably set up for M/T (Destiny), it is designed to be found by both of them, but Max has screwed this up by chosing his mate who has a different signature than Tess.
2) If M/I are outside the range, then why do M/M experience at least one way visions?
Maria can not (yet) receive subconscious messages from Michael(not healed/connected?), but he being a podster, is able to pull things from her subconscious. This probably did not happen before, because he is not too good in the powers department. This time he is actually trying (like in 285 S).
3) If Max is producing the physical symtoms in Liz, then one must ask to what end? What do you think that glowing hickeys "do"? (Aside from being night lights in parked jeeps, LOL). On the original SF of SH thread someone suggested (was it you Elliot?) that this seems almost like alien estrus (heat) and the signs might signify ovulation (or an alien equivalent). Any ideas Palomino about those physical syptoms you say Max is evoking?
When the aliens produce the silver handprints, it is because they are expending alot of mental energy. Max is expending alot of energy during passion and may have produced the hickey and trailing arm-glow in the same manner. (Thank goodness her lips don't glow silver.) Another possibility is that this is an alien way of marking territory - "This female is exclusively recepitive to another male. Back off". Possibilities for the "heat" : 1. When Liz went running up the ladder to the rooftop wearing a jacket, she could have just overheated. 2. Max's energy screwed up Liz's metabolism or "thermostat", just as he may have tampered with Tess's if they had been together. Maybe the male's advances trigger ovulation in aliens, like pain of breeding causes female cats to release their eggs. That does mean that podsters can do this in humans, or that they are even reproductively compatable (this would be extremely unlikely, but possible in sci-fi.) 3. It could be like a reaction to Max being different, as if her body is treating his closeness as a virus, but this is also unlikely since he did not put anything into her system, and did not make her sick.
[Edited by Palomino on 08-15-2000 at 05:28 PM]
08-15-2000 05:43 PM
silverfootprints
Dedicated Fan Registered: Aug 2000 Posts: 53 There was actually a lot of sci-fi stuff in SH. I was surprised honestly. I thought it would be more about Max and Liz having sex and stuff, but it wasn't. The sci-fi made it fascinating in more ways than one. I loved the way the writers made the sci-fi and romance go together really well. I was impressed, yet again. You writers are awesome!!! Thanx!
08-15-2000 07:06 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 quote:
Originally posted by Elliott ...an interview at the end of the season, Jason Behr made it clear that they were still all virgins by the end of 'Destiny'....
Ah-ha! Thank you. I see now that it was all intended as a metaphor (the digging, grunting, & panting followed by the explosive glow) without a separate reality. It was well done. If writers write best about what they know best, I hope they are boning up on some astronomy.
The orb switching definitely seems possible. There were two and the one they dug up was out in the open while they slept. Maybe that is why they stopped having visions (wrong orb). Maybe the fake orb is the Mommo orb with a fake message.
Um, how about in season 5 if they find that the orbs contain essences for including in procreation? Too Frankenstein?
08-15-2000 07:38 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 646 Just a small comment... After Isabel and Alex kiss, Isabel makes the comment that she didn't see anything "relevent to the current crisis." I think she says "Nothing, well nothing ...." Could it be that Isabel did see something, but they didn't show us her vision like they didn't show us Michael's insight into Maria to keep us guessing? I keep wondering if it was a throw away line... but why would Isabel say that? Wouldn't she just say "Nothing" if she actually hadn't seen anything? If she did, it would lend credence to Michael's notion (and to the theories of my romantic heart) that the aliens WERE meant to mix with the humans.
08-15-2000 07:49 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Shapeshifter: No-- not too Frankenstein, could the be a new term? FrankenLiz! Just look at the strange dillusions I've typed thus far on this thread.
Here's goes another one.
Au Lac: I think that Isabel may have received a vision from Alex. When he asks her if anything, she says, "Nothing." Then she corrects herself and says, "Nothing relevant to the current crisis." The interesting part of the conversation is that Isabel assumes Alex did not get a vision, nor does he seem surprised or disappointed at that he didn't get one. (Of course, he could just be amazed at waking up to find Isabel on his doorstep wanted to kiss him.) When Isabel walks away, she has a smile on her face. I like to think that she saw something funny from Alex. Isabel could just be stroking Alex's ego too-- but she's not one for lying in the show. She's hard, but she's been pretty straightforward and truthful.
Palomino: I have to admit, you have a nact for keeping your head on straight when composing theories. Unlike me, I'll think of the craziest thing out there and weed it down. Your idea that orb went out because Max's output energy is high- or at the correct level- is stroke of genius!
Shapeshifter: I thought it was possible that Max/Liz did more than dig up the orb in the desert. The conversation at the end of the eppy when Max/Liz are walking up to the Crashdown reminds me of "pillow talk". both are completely comfortable with one another, as if they had a night of intimacy. (I've said it before: Isn't nice to see Max so relaxed with himself in this episode!)
GraceKel: Yes. I think the whole, "You're burning up" line is a blantant suggestion that Liz is in heat. I am uncertain if it really refers to any biology occurring. I just think its a writer saying, "and for those of you too stupid to figure it out, Liz is ready for Sex."
Barrybud: Yes. Two different species cannot reproduce. They can "mate" though. (Ok, I've reached my yicky limit on that.) I'm just sorry to hear any FANS giving others a hard time.
Silverfootprints: Hm, I was surprised too on how much SciFi is out there in this eppy. Just proof at what wonderful writers we have. There are really good cut scenes that I wish were left in this episode.
After my third viewing of the episode. (I've watched it again tonight.) I am sticking by my idea that orbs were switched. I have many, many reasons for this, they include but are not limited to the following.
1) Everything we know about the podster changes (switches) after the orb is found. --Desting POV 2) There was oppurtunity. 3) There is a someone (alien) watching the podsters. BD Nasedo burns picture of podsters, TLV a camera is found and we later are able to place that Michael's apartment was bugged during this eppy. 4) I'm not even going to mention my ideas about the symbols. Whirlwind = Max 5) MTTM: The bat light. How was this done. Could it have been "real" orb. The symbol projected in Max to the Max is the same as the one on the orb. 6) I have an idea that fits with a spoiler (although it's an extremely general spoiler), so if you want to hear, it Private Message me. 7) White Room and Destiny shows us that Pierce and Harding have an intense interest in the orbs? Why? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the best place to look for aliens is near the crash. Mommy really didn't say anything that important to set off an intergalatic manhunt.
After reading everyone's wonderful posts, I have another question. It's pretty farfetched and out there. But could the orb be alive or maybe infused with the alien essense? After all, as Amy pointed out, the visions Liz see are from the ORB'S perspective. And how could the orb possibly relate this data to Max's subconscious if it didn't have some sort of 'lifeforce' as suggested. It would make sense if Max was seeking the orb, but he's just as baffled by the events in SH as Liz.
Ok: This isn't scifi, but I have to give kudos to the director during the locker room scene when Max tells Liz he saw her fantasy. Liz's reflection is absolutely stunning when they are in front of the window.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-15-2000 at 07:56 PM]
08-15-2000 08:37 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny Barrybud: Yes. Two different species cannot reproduce. They can "mate" though. (Ok, I've reached my yicky limit on that.) I'm just sorry to hear any FANS giving others a hard time. .... But could the orb be alive or maybe infused with the alien essense? After all, as Amy pointed out, the visions Liz see are from the ORB'S perspective. And how could the orb possibly relate this data to Max's subconscious if it didn't have some sort of 'lifeforce' as suggested. It would make sense if Max was seeking the orb, but he's just as baffled by the events in SH as Liz. Qfanny![Edited by Qfanny on 08-15-2000 at 07:56 PM]
Hi QFanny:
To respond to the above two observations:
1) We need to remember that our podsters are hybrids which is a little different than simply putting two members of different species together for mating. Max is not alien 100%. The question would be, would whatever IS alien about him impair viability? Again--the writers can use SF to convince us that that percentage (whatever it is) can be negated if they come with with a plausible explanation.
2) Your idea about the orb is significant because you are correct--we are "seeing" the dirt being shoveled from the orbs POV. Does that mean, however, that it is sentient? What if it is simply a recording device that picks up sights and sounds and transmits them (as it does in Destiny). What if that transmission can be activated from a distance and projected directly into the mind, etc.? What if that beeping functions like a homing device?
IF we have a sentient orb, then one can think of it directing the actions of Max, etc. Originally I did think that is what we had, but it was never picked up and developed in latter eppys. I mean, why not continue that control after it is found?
Do you think it is sentient?
LSS
08-15-2000 09:18 PM
amx
Addicted Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 601 Everyone, please forgive this rather flippant interjection but concept of sentient orbs raises, for me, the spectre of silly plot devices such as the purse artifical intelligence in "My Stepmother is an Alien".
Nevertheless, it remains unexplained why the orb in SH was able to function in any way without a companion. Whilst it is possible there are multiple orbs with differing modes of operation, this seems rather complex. Further, I feel we are being led to beleive that there are only the two - consider Topolski's comments to Michael in Crazy regarding there being 'another orb' or something to that effect.
Whilst in a sci fi-verse anything is possible with alien technology, the idea of sentience in the orbs and an ability to control behaviour implies a great deal. Not only must the orbs' creators have a detailed understanding of the mind (which we must assume is at least part human in the case of the podsters - a possible further complication) and a technology of such sophistication, that it can be miniaturise to the extent necessary to pack it into the orbs. It would also require some sort of power source (a point that has long troubled me) - which seems to be undetectable- at least on the information we have been given to date. Lastly, it seems, the whole package must be presented it in a stylish way - titanium football being the choice du jour.
It seems to me that the orbs would also need a means to collect data if they were sentient(no mind can exist in isolation), which the long burial of the SH orb seems to mitigate against.
So, for me, whilst the concept of sentience would help explain a number of the orbs' features/functions, it ultimately raises more questions, which I feel are harder to resolve.
amx
08-15-2000 09:25 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 LSS, let me take this time to thank you for the original SF of SH thread. Because of your fine and intellectually stimulating writing, I made Crashdown my posting home on the spot. I would have surfed on if your thread and the wonderful posts/posters there had not caught my eye. I became really hooked in the interval from ID to SH. I have the most of the download and I enjoy re-reading them now and again. (Many posters from then I have not seen in a while on SFof ..and I miss them). There is nothing like the first time rush, particularly the rush post-ID and SH activity at Crashdown.
LSS wrote: WHY ARE THE ALIENS ON EARTH? EMERGENCY LANDING VS DESTINATION? Or perhaps trying to leave the earth with contraband and/or genetically engineered embryos. This si sci-fi so anything is possible, but I think anything crashing on earth that entered the atmosphere would not have survived. Even with alien metals, we assume, the craft apparently broke apart enough that there were dead aliens and debris scattered. It just suggests that perhaps the descent was from a much lower altitude. And as PALOMINO pointed out in an excellent post, how many got away? Maybe more than Pierce/the Unit possibly can know. No wonder it's hard to find an apartment in Manhattan.
And I have a feeling that many different alien species AND earth-human variants have been hiding in plain sight in Roswell as well as other parts of earth .
BARRYBUD I have a vague recollection of that episode of ST:TNG, but you may be close to describing one of the major themes of Roswell. I mentioned many moons ago that I felt that this would be among the major themes of Roswell, particularly it were the case that Max' ancestors had come to earth tens of millenia ago (or left Earth to places beyond?) . My question was: what is alien in/on Roswell if the origins are the same, or if Earth were among the most recent of outposts of a star- faring species that had started out from what has been named the Whirlwind, or wherever, Galaxy. The "source" civilization set out so long ago they are themselves the stuff of legend. Perhaps that is what Liz is "seeing" : the origins (of them all), the collective unconscious rather than "recent" history. The rims of some galaxy, a red star or accretion disk around a black hole, a time warp/gate?, the crash: perhaps these are not linear. Perhaps she has had uncovered in her memory an event that far , far precedes anything in the recent timeline.
QFANNY wrote: Liz says she saw the Crash from Max. alone is very weird. If the podsters originals perished in the "conflict" then how could Max have any memories of the Crash, burying the orb, etc. I'm looking for another answer. And I'm lifting from the Metz books. AKINOS could be an answer.
Excellent pick-up QFANNY. I'm not convinced what Liz is receiving (re : space/time travel, crash, running-man, solders, etc) has anything to do with what Max is sending
GRACEKEL: I think is very plausible that the orbs could have been changed. There certainly was opportunity. Maybe Topolsky was skulking around.
AU LAC wrote: Michael also insinuated that the reason Maria DIDN'T see anything was that HE was the one who was emotionally closed off and therefore not Maria's fault. The audience simply didn't get to see the special effects. AU LAC, I agree with you here. I thought this was one of the most poignant scenes in SH when Michael, being very open, reveals this. Maria may have visions if Michael touches her in some way or perhaps only Max has the touch. It could also be that Liz is chosen and Ödifferent.
Max and Liz were clearly connected in some way since childhood. And Max had powers at least by age 6. I don't think the orbs had anything to do with this. Michael and Max can see into the hearts of the women they care about, heal, and Iz can dream-walk, and maybe the hamster can dance, but these gifts, to our knowledge, do not appear to be orb related. But if anyone is tapping into the orb frequency, I think it is Liz, whether intended for her or not.
Perhaps the orbs have significance for some other aliens? Perhaps the Mommy-gram was not for them? Perhaps the orb signalling and the message triggering were only tangentially related?
It is possible that Max and Liz were caught in the passion of lives lived ages ago (ie, reliving a past event) rather than being moved to a frenzy by the orbs. However, it is possible that the passions of both of them combined "caught" the orbs attention. It might have glowed with the FIRST pair of hands (or tentacles) that lifted it. But the glowing may have had something to do with Max' innate powers. Or the orb was signalling home: 'the slugs are here.. together..stay tuned'
For all we know Voyeur!Nasedo could care a scorpions rear-end for the orb. It may have nothing to do with him. Harding!Nasedo surely is clueless except a fear that the orbs might incite rioting.
QFANNY wrote: Liz's room is MECCA for all visitors! A porthole to adventure! Maybe we should accept Michael's premise that they were meant to connect with humans (which also answers your question 3 - then they must be able to mate with humans) to start learning about themselves. It may also answer why they were made human (with some essence mixed in) instead of left as all alien.
QFANNY, I think you are more right than you know. I don't think is a coincidence that Liz has this enclosed gardens. I, and perhaps many others, have mentioned the windows and doors and mirrors as metaphors for movement in time, space, memory, life. The 12 point star in her room is a creation/universe symbol. The enclosed garden has meaning in Grail and Biblical tales and in medieval and renaissance art. So do strawberries but I wont go there here. I agree with you, I think there is a lot of substance to what Michael is saying.
Excellent thoughts PALOMINO. I'll continue later about some thoughts.
ELLIOT = a treat. Good to "see" you here. You are missed.
08-15-2000 10:10 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 RostarFehrian it also stuck out in my mind when Michael says to Max in the apartment, "GO FOR IT MAXWELL FOR THE GOOD OF ALL MANKIND!" This is not only supporting the Alien/HUMAN hybrid bonding with HUMAN but it is almost like saying it has some greater purpose! What could this purpose be? Offspring? Or some other purpose?
08-15-2000 10:12 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 ELLIOT wrote: Ithink the scenes between Liz and her Mom were excellently written -- the complex issues raised by a teenager's growing sexual independence and the pain and confusion it can cause a loving parent, were perfectly realizedÖ Tepp pointed out some time ago, the scene of Max and Liz frenziedly digging up the orb was nothing less than the symbolic consummation of their affair (complete with grunts, sweat and a stunning, illuminating orgasm)Ö are the orbs simple communication/homing devices (as seemed decided by 'Destiny') or did they influence the sexual heat that Max and Liz were in as suggested by 'SH'? This episode (misleadingly?) made it seem that Max and Liz's passion was somehow linked to the orb and it's discovery.
I totally agree with all the above, ELLIOT. Loved those scenes (I like all the scenes with the parents. I sure hope we see more of them in the new season. I will be so sad if they are MIA as in the recent eps, and only given a passing mention). Absolutely agree with TEPP . I agree that the ep made it seem that the orb was related. See my post above. I think at least two different things were going on.
I don't think Liz is an alien, and I don't necessarily think that the podsters are alien, just more human than human. Enhancement of what was exists in all humans. Essence (soul ? collective conscious? things? Spirit? Spiritual unity of all things?) should not define alien/not-alien but should define the 'connectedness' of the life force in the univere(ses). I think Max has changed Liz . Perhaps in the spiritual plane and could only do this at EMOTIONAL sexual maturity. I'm sure her molecules were a-vibrating and she was dissipating the heat generated by Max. The podsters do generate a lot of energy and transfer heat.
NicoleD wrote: Also, because they have said that the Aliens are like humans, however, they use more of our brain power. If this is the case, I'm trying to figure out what it is about them that makes them totally different. Aside from the cells in their body.
NicoleD, I think it is regrettable they used the green alien epithelial cells in the first ep and perhaps the creative team, in retrospect, wish they hadn't, particularly that early in the series. I would not be surprised if if does not quietly disappear or get explained away somehow. I'm not buying it, particularly after that absurd display in DESTINY of so-called blood cells that are really epithelial cells. And by no stretch of the imagination are blood cells imaged on X-ray film. Give me a break. Perhaps something happens when the cells die.
By maturity (lifespan of 120 day), human red blood cells (erythrocytes) have extruded their nuclei and organelles so that they can carry heoglobin. Otherwise, all cells have the complement of DNA, but different tissue types differentiate (ie, eye cell vs. muscle cell) because the DNA is differentially expressed for reasons I wont go into here. But if the podsters have the same DNA as humans, it is possible that they express parts of their DNA that are forever "locked" (histone bound) in the normal human distribution. Most of the human DNA is not expressed, redundant, of ' junk ' that is mostly from viruses and errors.
Perhaps the advanced peoples knew the parts of the genetic code that express gene products (ie, neurotransmitters, enzymes) that allow areas of the brain to function (ie, limbic/temporal/frontal interconnections) that permit "connection" to the higher powers and states of being. Much of the human brain is only "background noise" generating. No one knows the capabilities of 'unlocking' these regions (the limbic system, 'the God Module'). These are areas under rigorous scientific scrutiny in neuropsychiatric, neurophysiology research at medical centers. Nothing magic, New Age-y here. To know the function of the limbic system and the power of the emotional center of the brain is to appreciate the potential for the sexual/emotional connection Max and Liz share. When I have a chance, I'll put up a link on the Signs and Symbols.. thread (as well as on "junk DNA" and "jumping genes").
To paraphrase (and mangle) Spock's observation: a race sufficiently advanced will appear to be performing magic to a less advanced or primitive species.
From a neurological standpoint, advanced species have more neocortex. Humans have 8 layers (correct me if I am wrong, neuroanatomy has long past). All the podsters, Max alone, or all their kind may have even more.
My feeling is there are many wonders yet to be discovered in the inner universe of the brain as well as in the outer universe, and the interface may be infinite, a flowing, like the 8 symbol. The quantum universe, the mind, the soul/spirit/chakras, etc, life force of the universe. There are frontiers where what appears to be fantastic or magic is the unexplored. Sein und zeit.
I don't believe they slept together because of the strawberries.
Rosta
08-15-2000 10:19 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 quote:
Originally posted by ROStaFEHRian ...QFANNY wrote: Liz says she saw the Crash from Max. alone is very weird. If the podsters originals perished in the "conflict" then how could Max have any memories of the Crash, burying the orb, etc. I'm looking for another answer. ...
I am nearly convinced that Max buried the orb in his former body.
08-16-2000 12:12 AM
pixiedude
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 130 I didn't see the second half of this one when it was first on. Micheal's statement to Maria about his vision made up for his prior boorishness (but his "man-to-man" speech to Max before Liz came over was pretty funny).
When Maria said that her Dalmation had died right after her father left, the first thing that I thought of was that an alien had killed the dog, thinking it might be a member of a "dog clan" (river dog, "dog boy" Doug Shellow, the various coyote refs). Have they ever said whether Maria's father actually left, or just "disappeared?"
08-16-2000 01:17 AM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 JUST FOR ANYONE THAT IS INTERESTED - here are the flashes that Liz received in SH : BTW, all space scenes are moving foreward. None look back at where they are moving from.
1. Strawberries : Rushing through stars, slowing into either a globular cluster or a galactic center(looks more like the cluster once inside though). 2. Dropped pencil : Headed towards a spiral galaxy(us?).[We are about two thirds of the way out from the center of our galaxy on the Orion arm of the Milky Way. The vision does not head for the center of its galaxy, but towards the outer part as if they are coming to our area of the Milky Way. We don't know if this is suposed to be a picture of our galaxy, because we have never left our galaxy to look back and be able to take a picture of it.] Then it heads towards a black hole with a red accretion ring. 3. Eraser room : Through stars again, past Jupiter(light coming from left), and towards Earth(light coming from right). [Badly done. The relative sizes of each are way off, not to mention them receiving light from opposite directions.] Coming over Earth outside the atmosphere, decending through clouds, steeply aiming towards the ground. [The terrain was right for the American southwest, but it was shown as being daylight and the actual crash happened at night. Oh well.] 4. This is a disturbing part. In science detention, Liz looks at a galaxy poster on the wall, and asks her science teacher (who made a goof just hours ago in class about the Big Bang) about it. He says it is the Whirlwind galaxy. Then she asks if there could be a "red star or red something" in the outer area of the galaxy. First, she is not looking at the same galaxy as is in her vision. Second, there is a galaxy called the Whirlpool(M51) about 15 million light years away. IT HAS A THICKENED AREA ON THE END OF ONE ARM JUST LIKE THE "WHIRLWIND" SYMBOL MADE BY THE ALIENS! This blob on the end of the spiral arm in actually a small companion galaxy(NGC5195). Third, neither galaxy, vision or poster, looks like the Whirlpool galaxy, although it is a spiral at least. When Max enters, she tells him she saw "this" and points to the wall poster. Duh! This whole scene was badly written, and really screwed up what little SCI-fi plot they had. It ruined where they could have taken it. If they had taken the effort to make the vision and poster the real Whirlpool galaxy, and had called it that, it would have matched the symbol on the orb! Agh! 5. Hickey touch in the locker room : Soldiers getting out of U.S. Army truck, and running away from whoever is watching. Then we see a soldier turning his head and running his eyes right over whoever is watching, (Does this mean the watcher has shapeshifted and the soldiers don't recognize him as the alien they are looking for? Has he shifted into a soldier or a cactus?) 6. Michael's apartment : Looking at ground, soldiers coming in distance, U.S. Army transmittion tower with signs, looking up at tower from hole in the ground while dirt is thrown on top. 7. When out on the desert, Liz then hears the beeping and there are no further visions.
[Edited by Palomino on 08-16-2000 at 01:25 AM]
08-16-2000 01:37 AM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 Slightly different focus here, but definitely pertaining to SH. Something in SH Monday night made me sit bolt upright, take notice, LOL, and set my heart to pounding because it added more fuel to a very strong feeling I have had since ITTW.
There are strong implications here for Liz's "specialness' as well as the podsters. Implications for why the Voyeur!Nasedo may be pleased or at least not troubled.
Since it 3:30am and I am working (yeah, that's right) in the office and spending the night, I will post this while I am taking a breather. When you open it at the office in the morning, you will be itching all day to run home to the VCR. When you are reading this and rushing to go to work..well, don't miss your ride.
This is partly a cut-paste from an off-board email I sent.
Did you notice that Philip Evans is wearing the same outfit as Voyeur!Nasedo? The shirt is not exactly the same (an exact match I think would be a, pardon the pun, red(plaid)-flag, and more likely noticed than not), but close enough. VN is wearing a jacket and a hat, too. I am sure viewers were waiting with bated breath to see what the parents were going to say, and still fanning themselves from the M/L desert heat, so they would be suitably distracted. Not Rosta.
Did you also notice, and this was meant to be noticed, Philip Evans is drinking soda (so what, he likes soda). But, intentionally or not, notice the sequence of coffee and mugs. MrsP pours coffee, Mr P holds coffee mug, Mr E (and his lame "..yeah big time.. - he cracks me up) picks up a glass of soda, then Mrs E sips from her mug.
I was thinking about MrE as I was drifting into sleep, composing in my head - I have been writing a post-D fan-fic and I have been thinking a lot about MrE. I was thinking about ITTW, that icky red-plaid loggers shirt, and analyzing why I like him and feel creeped by him at the same time. Lights out, eyes closed, something else on the TV, thinking about this coffee sequence and the shirt when I sat bolt upright, rewound the tape. I'm not sure why because I still wasn't thinking about the SH clothes. When I rewatched the end again ..the clothes!!!
I saw ITTW for the first time a few weeks ago and this was the first time I had seen MrE. I had accidentally erased SH and my tape ran out 15-20 minutes into ID when I had the timer on for ID the first time it aired. I wrote on that thread (maybe in an email??) that Mr E did not seem particularly concerned that his kids were missing. As if he expected them to be gone. I thought his demeanor expression very peculiar. He appears to be anticipating, amused, expectant. I thought he was VERY eager to go camping. I thought something was peculiar about ALL the fathers of Roswell.
I posted after the Blood Brothers repeat that I thought it was no coincidence that Isabel looks exactly like Mrs Evans and Max has her mouth. I expressed my opinion that this was a deliberate casting choice. I pointed out that Holo-mom looked like Diane Evans, in coloring and hairstyle (see MsE in the hospital scene with Max; same hair) and very general features (G. Frances has that upper lip too, glossed like Isabel's though). Evidence to support that the Holo-gram is a Tessinvention because she visited Mrs.E in her home. What better way to reach the heart and minds of M/M/I; make holo-mom resemble .."our mother".
I asked: does anyone think it is just a coincidence that Mr and Mrs Evans just happened to be driving down the road when kids that look like them are wandering in the desert? That Michael just happens to end up in a home (not bloody likely) with a drunk? Not unless Hank hit the skids fast after social services visited him.
I raised some troubling issues that need to be addressed (no one did):
1.how much do the father's of Roswell know? Are most, if not all of them complicit (directly or indirectly) in some project/experiment to genetically engineer children (the Stepford Children Scenario) because they couldn't have children for some reason. The crash business is a fake to cover-up something else. If they are alien, did they mate with human females/egg harvest/etc. (something to do with the death of Sheila Hubble?).
2. Fathers, except Mr P, are away a lot. I have not seen a few eps so I may have missed it, but what does Alex' dad do? Maria's father is a complete mystery. Did he leave or was he killed?
3. I think Diane Evans is sincere, the real honest deal, and only knows what happened the day the children were "found" (or had her memories suppressed/altered), but it is possible MrE knows a lot more: he is one of many GNs, or he was innocently steered down that highway.
And some more troubling thoughts :
1. The real kicker: Hank-killer!Nasedo appears in ID - AFTER Michael comes to the Evans home. Hmmmm. I have repeatedly watched the scenes in ID, and studying MrE's demeanor regarding Michael. Very fascinating. I have been 'gracekelling' my VCR.
2. We don't know if MrsE was ever pregnant or lost a child. Were they on their way to Roswell, did they live there already; did someone deliberately send them down a certain highway
3. With the exception of the Evans' adopted pair, the parents we know in Roswell have only one child. Even Michael is an only-foster child.
4. Was there an experiment undertaken to monitor the development of these children in different environments.
5. I could not tell you why, but in BD I thought.. "one of the fathers" (MrParker more than MrE, but I was not convinced it was Pierce) at the end.
6. The orbs, Pierce, Harding (and even Tess) may be of another, unrelated origin.
7. A special person such as Max has a special father.. Mr Evans has a strong presence even I his absence
8. Valenti Sr, knows something very significant. He appears to have had a stroke (I don't know his diagnosis was mentioned in any ep I missed) and left-sided weakness (remember GC?).
Sorry to go a bit off, but this is very pertinent to peoples astute observations and quesitons: Is ?alien-human mating the plan and who wants it(and who doesn't); who wants the Liz/Max union to succeed; who is really alien (my question). And the "runner" in the beginning may not have been running from a crash.
I think Mr E is very pleased with his son's choice. Maybe that is why they are in Roswell.
Rosta
08-16-2000 02:31 AM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Rosta : I had posted earlier on the possibility of Mr. Evans being one of them, but i don't remember which thread now. My reasons were these:
1. He acts like the mellow, gentle, caring Tic-tac. 2. Maybe he married Diane with the expectation of having her be their mother, since it was perhaps the females that were killed in the crash, and he knew they should have a mother. 3. What a coincidence that he took his wife out on that dirt road at night. Had he checked the pod chamber late that afternoon and found the three had left? Had he then contacted Harding to pick up Tess? 4. Diane questions Max, but Philip never does.
Problems with him being an alien:
1. Max's dad is a lawyer, and would have to have gone to school to learn all about our laws, and get a diploma to hang on his office wall. That's alot of time and effort to spend on creating and keeping up a cover. He also could made an easier choice that would have let him spend more time around his childen. 2. In SH, Philip would have been up with Diane when they realized Max was missing. They apparently told Isabel, then went to the Crash Down and were waiting with Liz's parents for their kids to show up. At this point, Tic-tac was on the desert with M/L. Philip, if he was Tic-tac, could not be in two places at once. Philip is not Harding, so he would have to be yet another alien. 3. If he is an alien, why has he not told his kids so they feel they can trust him and go to him for help - especially when they were in mortal danger like M2tM, WR, and Destiny? 4. Why didn't he find Michael? It would have been easy to do once Michael had been picked up out on the desert and turned over to the authorities. Diane would have been more than willing to adopt one more. He would have to have at least looked up where Michael was placed. Why wait ten years to get him out of the situation?
Althought the writers may choose to go in this direction, it is not plausible, just entertaining.
08-16-2000 03:45 AM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 Palomino,
Thanks for you reply. Please point me to your post you mentioned. The "cons" are in the preponderance and such a story line may be too heavy duty for 13 episodes to carry, and yes I think it is tantalizing for discussion for entertainment purposes only. Yes I do think the creaters are throwing red-herrings and perhaps deliberately threw in the scene to tweak and mislead. It is fun to catch the red-herrings too. But sometimes mis-leading informatin (and lies) is sandwiched between two truths. I think the clue was deliberate. That it play out to be nothing other than a red-herring does not take away frm the hunt. I enjoy the hunt. I enjoy getting into the storytellers frame of reference a sources of inspiration.
There is still the issue that the Evans picked up and adopted children that look like them. I wouldn't have too much trouble with him becoming a lawyer. Maybe it is not so hard. I think there is a lot less "alien" in Roswell than we think. Just a lot of humans who are more human-than human. I wont make any lawyer jokes. The real compelling "con" for me would be allowing needless suffering of one's children for an experiment.
I don't know if it would have been hurtful to have told the kids if their powers had not developed. Max and Iz have kept secrets from their parents and this, as Jenlev has said, can be traumatizing.
Rosta, having fun.
08-16-2000 04:00 AM
JanetMG
Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 276 Rosta: I've read your post twice & I'm still missing something--what is the significance of MrE drinking soda? Just that he's "different" from the other parents who are having coffee? Palomino: I agree with your list of problems except for problem no. 1. Law school is more about learning ways to analyze legal issues than it is about learning specific substantive areas of law. I don't think most lawyers gain great understanding/expertise in a specific area of law until they've actually practiced it for a while. There have been cases where people fake their credentials (including law school and bar membership) and just start to practice law. It's not legal. It's unethical. It's not common, but it happens.
08-16-2000 04:16 AM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 Well Rosta, I too have entertained this possibility about Mr Evans because of all the reasons you described and the fact that Michael went on about Riverdog, and says, "Riverdog knows more about us than Phillip Evans ever will." I thought wouldn't it be ironic if he were GN afterall, he is away a lot.
The fact that he did not get Michael, well there could be another reason for that so I am open to this possibility as well as many others.
08-16-2000 07:06 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Palomino: excellent summary of those visions!! You have a very nice grasp of detailed observation.
amx: I agree with you about the sentient orb, which is why I abandoned the idea a while back. What of the orb being a recording device, though? If it had been "left on" while it was being buried it would explain the shot we saw.
shapeshifter: I find intriguing your idea that the person burying the orb was Max's former self. This would suggest, of course, that the conflict in which he was killed has extended in some way to "earth" which opens up all sorts of plot possibilities. I really find interesting Nemo's suggestion of this being a time travel story, but don't think that this is where the writers are taking us. [P.S. Have you ever noticed how our posters can come up with SF ideas that are actually an improvement on the show? Sigh.)
rosta: I know that you have felt that Roswell's aliens (of various species) have long had outposts on earth. (In this your thoughts have a overlap with real UFOlogy folk.) Let's go with this for a moment...why do you think that these aliens have not moved forward to "conquer" earth? Or do you envision earth as merely a waystation? Is earth on the periphery of the frontier,or a strategic key to this part of the universe? I keep coming back to those artifacts in Harding's house that the writers made sure we noticed. Momentoes of past events in which Nesedo/Harding played a role? Or merely tourist momentos? I do hope that our writers make this clearer in the second season. And of course if we have an established colony, it increases the chances of the "crash" taking place at take off instead of planetfall--which again I think is your position is it not?
BTW--yes I miss some of our former posters from the original thread. I have noticed that there is a certain ebb and flow to our board's population. Now that I've been on the boards for about 7 1/2 months I realize that some of our former posters have all but disappeared from the boards entirely.
LSS
08-16-2000 07:13 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 POSTSCRIPT:
I think that we would have a stronger argument for the significance of PE's absences if all the other parents were more "present" in the series. For example, Nancy Parker--outside of Missing and SH--is rarely seen. And of course when one brings up the physical comparisons, one has to remember that they changed actors with the PE character.
They can't keep the parents in the dark (and retain credibility) too much longer. I think that it is not a question of "if" but "when" they "find out". Hopefully we will glean some info about PE then. I'll be anxious to see if your speculations are on target. It would make for an interesting plot line.
08-16-2000 09:33 AM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 quote:
Originally posted by LSS ...They can't keep the parents in the dark (and retain credibility) too much longer. I think that it is not a question of "if" but "when" they "find out...
In TH I got the impression that Mrs. Evans knows, but that talking about it is not an option for Max right now. Recall he threatens to leave. But she seems like the most likely human adult to become involved next season, especially given the Sheriff's knowledge and their conversations in TH. There is mention of her being the adult that they could trust. In contrast, Liz's mom seems like the ticking time bomb who might expose Max to protect her baby.
Personally, I find the agreement with Mrs. Evans and her kids to not talk about it and the other parents' general unawareness in keeping with my own experiences as a teenager (30 years ago) when I had the top GPA, and so other than an occasional grounding for coming in late, many loopholes in my stories of my whereabouts were ignored. Similarly, my best friend's whereabouts were not suspect, because she was with me, the A-student. Of course I was not involved with the leader of another planet, and so did not attract the FBI or opposing Evil Aliens. Still, it would not have been out-of-character if my parents had failed to notice signs of such involvements.
08-16-2000 09:56 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Shapeshifter:
I agree about Liz' mom. I have never been able to understand just what they are trying to achieve with her character. Granted that teenage girls and their mothers have all sorts of issues. But at times it seems that Nancy Parker is more alien than any of the podsters!!!
LSS
08-16-2000 10:32 AM
ElizabethinTexas
Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 22 Hello, everybody!!! I have just read the first page so if I repeat anything people have said on previous posts I haven't read, forgive me. First of all, both Michael and Isabel see "visions" from Maria and Alex. In the final scene with M/M, he admits it is he who cannot open up and that he saw her as a child. Isabel says after kissing Alex, "Nothing...Nothing to relevant to the current crisis."
As well as being the same as the time set on the clock beneath Venus, this takes place only about a week after BD...if we are to assume that BD took place near Valentine's Day. This supports those of you who have theories that the kiss---oh la la--at the end of BD set things in motion for this to happen. Also, it makes sense when Liz describes the sudden "chemical" changes she seems unable to control.
I don't think L/M consummated their relationship out in the desert simply because I don't think the writers would have such an important storyline happen off-screen--not just because all of us viewers would storm their offices, either.
Qfanny: I too liked how comfortable with each other, as well as Max's ease with himself. I believe this came with realizing Liz loves him unconditionally, completely--something none of the aliens believe is truly possible with a human.
In a previous post (sorry I have no memory when it comes for usernames), someone suggested the flashes Max saw of Liz playing dress up signified Liz's need to grow up, to change. I agree, and I think this is when Max sees her fantasy--thus causing him to break that kiss in the eraser room like he did. I know this goes directly against Michelle in Yonkers previous posts/thread.
I must applaud the writer for her sense of humor...most especially Michael's little "pep talk," as well as the whole Chaka Kahn CD. Does anybody else find this hilarious that Michael Guerin has a CD by that singer? {Beth looks around as nobody but her laughs }
Completely off topic, did anybody notice that the shower handle thingys looked like alien faces? When Max went to Michael's apartment, there is somebody standing in the hall by the door (you see hair and an ear)?
Well, I think I have said my peace, but as soon as I hit submit, something else will pop in my head as always.
Laters, Beth
08-16-2000 10:48 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 "I must applaud the writer for her sense of humor...most especially Michael's little "pep talk," as well as the whole Chaka Kahn CD. Does anybody else find this hilarious that Michael Guerin has a CD by that singer? {Beth looks around as nobody but her laughs)"
Hi Beth!
Okay--I'm going to no doubt show my generation here--but who is Chaka Kahn? I never understood that reference when the eppy aired but never looked it up. You, however, seem to know who it is! And why would this be hilarious? (I know--explaining a joke kind of negates its humor, but humor me!)
LSS
08-16-2000 11:12 AM
ElizabethinTexas
Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 22 Just an observation I neglected in my last post: did anybody notice that the fathers were more open to the relationship of M/L, and the moms were talking separation?
Also, Liz's mom does not seem to be close to her daughter, which goes back all the way to her first appearance on the show in LN when GC tells Nancy that she and Liz are going to discuss all the boys in love with her. Nancy's coloring as well as Jeff's really makes me wonder if Liz is really their daughter--I mean adoption, not alien here.
In TH, Diane is cooking like she does when Phillip Evans is out of town. He is a lawyer, but unless he works for like a large firm, I would see no need for him to travel. Maybe I'm wrong here.
As for why the Evans were out on that dirt road, maybe they were going star gazing, or, depending how far the podsters walked, were they maybe scouting the area their house would be built. The houses in the Evans' neighborhood look like they were built in the past few years.
I think I am clutching at straws here, but you never know...
Laters, Beth
08-16-2000 12:05 PM
bkwrm79-Stargazer
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 88 Although I don't buy the sentient orb theory, that doesn't mean it couldn't have some organic component that allows it to be accessed/controlled pyschically. Given that there don't appear to be any buttons or other controls, I don't see how else this could be done. This would help to explain Liz's visions, which can't be from Max if Max hadn't hatched yet! A non-sentient, non-self-aware orb might not mind being buried in the desert for over a decade, but a sentient one would probably be insane from sensory deprivation. (Not that I'm an expert on the psychology of orbs).
08-16-2000 12:10 PM
Aeneas
Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 25 Palamino - Help! Its been more years than I care to admit since I studied Cosmology, but my limited understanding was that Hydrogen was created in the Big Bang. Heavier elements such as carbon and oxygen are fused inside of stars. This process continues up until iron is formed, where the mass-defect/nucleon curve peaks. Fusion stops at this point, since heavier elements have lower mass-defect, hence in fusing them no more energy is released (E=mc^2). At this point the Red Giant collapses during which the elements heavier than Fe are created by the energy supplied from the shockwave generated from the collapse.
Has current theory changed? (Carbon & Oxygen were created in the Big Bang) or did the science teacher make a mistake? or is it a deliberate attempt on the part of unknown conspirators to feed our friends false information?
08-16-2000 12:18 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 quote:
Originally posted by LSS
"I must applaud the writer for her sense of humor...most especially Michael's little "pep talk," as well as the whole Chaka Kahn CD. Does anybody else find this hilarious that Michael Guerin has a CD by that singer? {Beth looks around as nobody but her laughs)"
Hi Beth!
Okay--I'm going to no doubt show my generation here--but who is Chaka Kahn? I never understood that reference when the eppy aired but never looked it up. You, however, seem to know who it is! And why would this be hilarious? (I know--explaining a joke kind of negates its humor, but humor me!)
LSS
Being even older, I too am waiting to be clued in here. In the mean time, as a librarian, I have come up with a quick reference (came up as highest rated with regards to being relevent to the subject) to Chaka Kahn from the Sept 15, 1986 People: quote:
DESTINY Chaka Kahn This LP offers a handy solution for those Saturday-night-party folks who don't have time to make a dance tape. Just throw Destiny on the turntable, and even the most relentlessly stubborn wallflowers
will set about shaking their booties for a half hour or so. Unfortunately, Chaka's longtime producer, Arif Mardin, has buried her distinctive, earthy vocals beneath an endlessly overbearing series of beat-box-supported bass riffs. The title cut, in which Chaka sings, ''I'm the ruler of my destiny/ I can determine what becomes of me,'' comes off as just another hollow drum. Phil Collins hammers out the beat, and Randy and Michael Brecker spice up the horn section on Watching the World, but to no effect. Their individual contributions are less decipherable than Chaka's. Any competent studio musician could have fulfilled the same function. The last cut, Coltrane Dreams, which features jazz-infused atonal vocals by Chaka, finally relieves this LP's dancefare doldrums. Too bad that the minute-and-a-half reprieve is so short and comes so late. (Warner Bros.)-- Mary Shaughnessy Sweethearts of the Rodeo
So, "Destiny," ... is this the joke? Or is the idea of Michael groovin to the beat just really absurd? Or is this not love-making music?
08-16-2000 01:02 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Shapeshifter:
Well done!!!! Chaka Kahn's LP was "Destiny"? What fun!! And Nemo (if he wasn't on vacation) would love it!! In fact, I have his vacation addy--I'll post it ASAP!
LSS
PS You are from a generation older than mine????? Shapeshifter -- I'm in the 51-60 range...what are you...61-70??? LOL
08-16-2000 01:29 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 quote:
Originally posted by LSS Shapeshifter -- I'm in the 51-60 range...what are you...61-70??? LOL
Oops! Guess I won't reach your level for 4 more years, though usually I feel about 70 (because I attempted some wild adventures in my youth, no doubt ). Anyway, I am LOL now myself, am still eagerly awaiting the real point of the Chaka Kahn joke...
08-16-2000 04:18 PM
Roxanne Roxanne
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 68 Just to answer the wuestion of who Chaka Khan is, she is an R&B singer of the seventies and eighties. The songs I know she did are probably the most famous. "Tell Me Something Good" The original "Sweet Thing" and the original "I'm Every Woman" . It's been a long time, but I think she was in the video with Whitney Houston when she redid it.
08-16-2000 04:20 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 originaly posted by Aeneas :
Palamino - Help! Its been more years than I care to admit since I studied Cosmology, but my limited understanding was that Hydrogen was created in the Big Bang. Heavier elements such as carbon and oxygen are fused inside of stars. This process continues up until iron is formed, where the mass-defect/nucleon curve peaks. Fusion stops at this point, since heavier elements have lower mass-defect, hence in fusing them no more energy is released (E=mc^2). At this point the Red Giant collapses during which the elements heavier than Fe are created by the energy supplied from the shockwave generated from the collapse.
Has current theory changed? (Carbon & Oxygen were created in the Big Bang) or did the science teacher make a mistake? or is it a deliberate attempt on the part of unknown conspirators to feed our friends false information?
Yep, big time boo boo. The first time his aired I screamed. I can see if a kid makes a mistake like this, but not a science teacher. The writers really goofed on this one, and I have not forgiven them on this. You can't make blunders like this when you write for a show. Not only do you ruin the credibility of the show, but you teach people who don't know any better the wrong facts. Whoever wrote the line needs a good thrashing; the dozens of people who didn't correct the line before it aired deserve a thrashing. You would think the actor would do a little reasearch to make sure his character's integrity preserved; it's not like he had a lot of lines or they were difficult....
ok...I got that off my chest now. Thank you Aeneas.
08-16-2000 06:14 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Actually, I know who Chaka Khan is and I still didn't get it either. I mean, it's dance music-- not mood music at all. Love the fact the record is called Destiny though.
Still off topic, but I think MrsE proves to be about as dumb as a post in SH, "I don't understand, Max and Liz were cleaning erasers when it happened?"
I like reading the ideas about MrE being alien, and I'll be watching ITW and SH again tonight.
To answer LSS questions about 1) interspecies mating and 2) sentient orbs.
Yes, I know that Max is a hybrid. But he is different- it may very well not be safe, practical, ethical, or sensible. I was trying to offer some support to BarryBud. Hopefully, season two will answer "what it means to be alien." I in no way wanted to imply Liz and Max sexual relationship was akin to beastiality. (Is that what you thought I meant?)
And the orbs as a "lifeforce". For lack of a better term, I used the word alive. There is probably one out there more fitting. I do not think that the orbs can think, but it is odd how Liz gets the visions from the ORBS perspective. That should be explained.
Shapeshifter: I thought Max could have a "past life" memory too, until Destiny aired. I thought Mommy clearly stated that they perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet. I took it to mean that they died on the home world- or relatively near it.
As for missing posters- I predict that they will show up again after season two starts. There will be new material to hash out and it will be a lot more fun to concentrate on new ideas.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
08-16-2000 06:33 PM
jenlev
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 266 hi there,
it's been great reading all these posts!
intersting idea about the orb(s) having an organic component...makes me wonder just how many orbs there are out there, and if it's possible that the shapeshifters have been leaving them about sort of like 'johnny appleseed' left appleseeds around.
and is it possible that the orbs are self replicating? perhaps i'm totally over the top here...but i keep thinking that there have to be more than two orbs....unless they were destroyed in the crash.
aboout the shapeshifters and the parents: i think the writers have been busy tossing out red herrings and half hints, and it's working very well! whatever the parents involvement is, i'm still thinking that the podsters got out of the pods off schedule and unsupervised. so i'm still assuming that the shapeshifters are still trying to gathe the errant flock...so to speak.
and who knows what draconian set of laws might preclude the shapeshifters from intervening in the podster's lives? or keep them from acknowledging themselves? and what if these same laws cause the shapeshifter(s) to behave in ways that we would find bizarre? as we don't have a clearer context of the alien traditions or context it's hard to know. that makes the speculation even more fun.
whatever shapeshifters there are running about, they may still be struggling trying to make sense of the situation they are in. i expect that the podsters, the human charactors, and the viewers may nevdr get a full explanation for the behavior presented by any of the aliens? perhaps it's easier to explain the overtly evil aliens because it' more 'either/or'---the more there is room for ambiguity the harder it is to deliniate the issues involved.
jenlev
[Edited by jenlev on 08-16-2000 at 06:35 PM]
08-16-2000 09:35 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Hi QFanny!
See my comments in CAPS below:
"Still off topic, but I think MrsE proves to be about as dumb as a post in SH, "I don't understand, Max and Liz were cleaning erasers when it happened?"
AGREED--I MEAN THAT IS PRETTY DENSE!
"Yes, I know that Max is a hybrid. But he is different- it may very well not be safe, practical, ethical, or sensible. I was trying to offer some support to BarryBud."
I GUESS I SHOULD PUT MY REMARKS TO BARRY IN PERSPECTIVE. BARRY AND I ARE ON AN E-GROUP OF 40-50+ FANS. HE IS RATHER NOTORIOUS IN HIS PRO-TESS STATEMENTS AMONG THE DREAMER MAJORITY. IT IS ALL IN GOOD FUN ACTUALLY--NO REAL SHIPPER FIGHTS. HIS POST WAS AIMED IN PART (AND IT APPEARED ON THE E-GROUP THREAD) TO ARGUE THAT TESS WOULD BE MORE APPROPRIATE THAN LIZ FOR MAX IF HE WANTED TO PROCREATE. MY RESPONSE, WHILE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THAT MIGHT BE SO, WAS AIMED AT SHOWING HIM THAT LOGICALLY THERE WERE WAYS ONE COULD GET AROUND THE PROBLEM HE PRESENTED. IN OTHER WORDS--HE COULDN'T QUITE COUNT LIZ OUT YET!!! BUT YOU ARE RIGHT--IF ROSWELL WAS NOT ALSO A ROMANCE I WOULD PROBABLY BE MORE SYMPATHETIC TO HIS ARGUMENT.
Hopefully, season two will answer "what it means to be alien." I in no way wanted to imply Liz and Max sexual relationship was akin to beastiality. (Is that what you thought I meant?)
GOOD GOD NO. HOW IN THE WORLD DID YOU GET THAT IDEA? SHUDDER!!! SHADES OF ENKIDU AND GILGAMESH!
And the orbs as a "lifeforce". For lack of a better term, I used the word alive. There is probably one out there more fitting. I do not think that the orbs can think, but it is odd how Liz gets the visions from the ORBS perspective. That should be explained.
YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. IT SHOULD BE EXPLAINED...BUT WHETHER IT WILL BE IS ENTIRELY A DIFFERENT MATTER. SIGH. HOPEFULLY RON MOORE WILL CLEAN UP THINGS LIKE THIS.
Shapeshifter: I thought Max could have a "past life" memory too, until Destiny aired. I thought Mommy clearly stated that they perished in the conflict that enslaves our planet. I took it to mean that they died on the home world- or relatively near it.
MAYBE...I WONDER IF THE CONFLICT THAT ENSLAVES THEIR PLANET IS NOW HERE AND WE JUST DON'T KNOW IT. IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IN THIS SECOND SEASON JUST HOW EXTENSIVE THE ALIEN INFILTRATION HAS BECOME. NOW THAT PIERCE IS NESEDO/HARDING HAVE YOU EVER STOPPED TO THINK WHAT OTHER SHAPESHIFTERS ARE WALKING AROUND IN OTHER GOVERNMENT BODIES????
As for missing posters- I predict that they will show up again after season two starts. There will be new material to hash out and it will be a lot more fun to concentrate on new ideas.
THERE IS THAT. THOUGH I WONDER IF ROSWELL ADDICTION IS FUNCTIONAL IN SOME WAY. AND WHEN THAT FUNCTION IS NO LONGER OPERATIVE OR NECESSARY, FOLK MOVE ON. NAH--THEY'LL BE BACK IN OCTOBER!!!!
LSS
ps NEBRASKA? I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO SEE IT BUT HAVE NEVER GOTTEN THE CHANCE.
[Edited by LSS on 08-17-2000 at 06:47 AM]
08-16-2000 09:35 PM
LAR
Fan Registered: Aug 2000 Posts: 2 Sorry if I'm duplicating anyone. Great thread - I always go the "SF of.." first thing. I think that Nasedo/TicTac used the orb to send the messages to Liz as a kind of test of Max's powers. Max's ability to channel the visions indicates that something has worked in his development, and he is qualified to take up his destiny. I thought Nasedo looked very proprietary during the scene where he was watching them sleep, like he has personally succeeded in something. This kind of follows from River Dog's comment that Nasedo made him promise to test anyone who came looking for answers.
I loved the episode, for all the obvious reasons, but a couple things kind of bothered me. While they were busy burying the orb, what happened to the embryos/essences? If they were pre-engineered on the home planet (using human DNA from abductees?), where were they hidden while the two surviving aliens were in captivity? They could have been engineered on earth using DNA from Sheila Hubble's fetus, but that would make all the hybrids genetically related. How did the aliens lug those big pods we see in 4-square up to the cave with the army after them? We don't have artificial-womb technology today. If it didn't come from the home-planet, how could Nasedo have found the needed equipment in the 1950's? Was the cave was already set up from previous visits to earth? Finally, for any astromony buff's out there, how far away is the Whirlwind galaxy? Assuming faster-than-light travel, how long would it take to get here? Did they come through the wormhole we see in Liz's vision from evil-Max? How much time would that save? I am confused why anyone thinks they can get back in time to save the home planet and meet Mom. Seeking enlightment in season 2.
08-16-2000 09:50 PM
Faith Evans
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 145 Just getting out from behind the tree for a sec, I just got threw reading the first page and wanted to respond to this though by the time I finally post this you all would more then likely have moved on from this but oh well...
quote:
by Barrybud Although our podsters may appear human, we alread know from the pilot that at the cell level they are not! If the writers want this to be believable they need to stick to the fact that 2 different species canít reproduce.
I love LSSís response to this, and you know you kind of proved LSS right when you posted this...
quote:
by Barrybud Ater reading your post, I thought of a Star Trek Next Gen. ep. Of course I canít remember the name, but in the show they had to put this object together. at the end of the show they were on a planet with several other species all on the same quest. Just b4 all fighting with each other our fearless crew put the last clues together. Right in front of them appears a "Mom-o-gram" of there own telling them that they spread their seed across many galaxies on many planets. How they should all just get along because of the common history. Anyone remeber this?
Iím a great fan of Star Trek I grew up watching The Next Generation, and the whole purpose of that episode was that many fans were asking the question as to why so many of the alien species on that show had a humanoid shape and were able to produce children so easily. Children like Spock who was half Vulcan half Human, K-Lar (mother of Worfís son) and BíElana (On Voyager) who are half klingon and half human, and many other chracters but you get the point.
Obviously the practical reason being that human actors play the parts and its cheaper to just cover them in makeup then use up a lot of money on computer animated alien characters. But still people wouldnít let it go, so they came up with this episode that explained why so many species had the same shape and why interspecies relationships could produce children with out to much trouble.
The concept of that epi being and old ancient race were the original people with the humanoid shape when they were advanced enough they traveled the galaxy as explorers finding nothing close to themselves. They knew evolution would take its course and nothing of them would remain so they left seeds on all kinds of planets that directed the evolution of the planet on one set path and yet still keep each species different fro one another and original. So in a sense all these species had the same parents making interspecies children and mating possible.
If this is at all possible in real life, who knows, the point is that in Science Fiction if you can make the science believable then thatís all that matters. Science Fiction is Fantasy, based on 50% Science and 50% Imagination.
As far we know our trio are advanced humans, with who knows how much Alien in them, and as far as season one looks besides the whole Destiny crap not much is standing in the way whether that changes in the future we just have to wait and see.
Ok Iím going back to said tree now. Bye...
Faith Evans
[Edited by Faith Evans on 08-16-2000 at 10:05 PM]
08-16-2000 11:55 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 LAR :
The WHIRLPOOL GALAXY is 15 million light years away. It has two main spiral arms and one arm is thicker out near the tip JUST LIKE THE SYMBOL THE ALIENS MADE, [except for the triangle in the middle, which is probably the symbol of Max, his rule, his military, his planet, or his people.] The blob at the end of the tip is actually a smaller companion galaxy. The problem is that the STUPID science teacher (yes, the one that said all C and O were made during the Big Bang), called it the Whirlwind galaxy, as if the writers had made up an imaginary one. If they had stuck to the real Whirlpool galaxy, the symbol would have made sense. Oh, well ...
08-17-2000 04:02 AM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 quote:
Originally posted by LSS
ps NEBRASKA? I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO SEE IT BUT HAVE NEVER GOTTEN THE CHANCE.
Huh? Aint much out here, I rather be in LA anyday. Oh yeah, there is Carhenge http://www.carhenge.com/, which I've never been too, but has a quirkiness that appeals to me. Not very near where I'm at. If you are ever in Lincoln let me know. (That goes to any of you.)
Actually, MrsE has always been an idiot, but in SH she proves herself to be exceptionally stupid. Maybe that's why Michael and Max were so certain that telling her would be BAD.
Thanks for clearing that up w/ Barrybud. I don't subscribe to any email groups on Roswell. I knew that there was something I was missing.
From Nebraska! Qfanny
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-17-2000 at 05:08 PM]
08-17-2000 07:19 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Some people have brought up interesting points on the podsters' reproduction. I just thought I'd add my 2 cents' worth.
1. By the cheek scraping(Liz) and blood test(FBI), we see that Max's cells do not look human. All of his cells would be this way throughout his body. [This is too lengthy to get into, but it is not possible for him to be human in some places and not in others. His human DNA may make him look human and have human form, but cellularly he is a hybrid, and different enough to look "alien" under a microscope.] 2. With Earth creatures, closely related species can breed. Humans and chimpanzies have only about a two percent difference in their genetic make up, but can not breed. Horses and donkeys are very closely related, but the offspring(mules, usually female) are usually unable to reproduce (only three in history have been known to, and this was not with other mules, but horses.) Some species can cross and produce offspring that can reproduce themselves, but these are very closely related species of the same genera, family, order, etc., and of course are from the same planet. 3. We know they were genetically engineered to get desired traits and characteristics of humans, but probably they had to be engineered to even make the cross a viable being. An alien/human breeding would almost certainly produce nothing (scientifically speaking, not Hollywood), unless we were very closely related, in which case they wouldn't be "aliens". The podsters had to be engineered to make their cells/bodies work with two kinds of DNA mixed. 4. The podsters were suposed to breed with each other according to the book(picture of pregnant one), their dreams(sex on the rocks), and (yuk!) the Mommogram("your young bride", "betrothed"). If Max is some kind of royalty, they will presumably want him to carry on the the bloodline. Hopefully, Max is not a mule.
Now for the possibilities of the podsters themselves breeding :
Somatic (body) cells each have the full number of chromosomes. Sperm and eggs have only half the number so the offspring(1 sperm + 1 egg) doesn't have double the number of chromosomes as the parents. The splitting of somatic cells to make the reproductive cells (sperm & eggs) is rather random, so each time the genetic material provided by the individual is not the same.
When breeding a hybrid to a hybrid, the results can vary greatly, because they don't breed true. M/T could have an almost human child, and almost alien child(SSer), but mostly lots of inbetween things that could get really gross and not even survive. I don't think any of the aliens would want this to happen, especially if they want the "royal line" to continue, and their leader to have a happy homelife. (Siring hidiously deformed and/or dead critters is distracting when fighting to save the homeworld. If this was the case, the podsters might want to exterminate a race that had done this to them, not protect them.)
The genetic engineering may have been very helpful in this respect. If the aliens are good at it, they may be able to defy the Earth laws of genetics in the following way:
The podsters' splitting of somatic cells to make reproductive cells may not be random. What if the aliens were able to design them so they split their somatic cells not randomly at all, but "right down the middle", so their reproductive cells were pure?
A. They may produce reproductive cells that are both pure human, and pure alien. If Max reproduces with Tess, he would then be able to sire pure humans, or pure aliens. It would probably not be possible to produce a hybrid unless it was again genetically engineered. If Max reproduced with Liz, only the human half of his sperm would be able to impregnate her. If he returned to his homeworld and married an alien (SSer), he would produce only aliens (SSers). This would give the podsters the most options, and if Mommy truly loved them, she would have seen to it that this method was carried out.
B. If the aliens wanted M/T to have only SS babies to get the ruling family back on track, Max's body may be producing viable alien(SS) sperm, but his human sperm may be non-viable by design. He could then reproduce with Tess, or any SSer female. This would ensure the purity of the ruling family as aliens, and preclude the complication of any of the podsters producing human children. (It would be so untidey, and podsters might want to stay on Earth with their human children.)
C. The aliens could have designed them to be a new race of hybrids that could breed true , but to what purpose, belonging on neither planet? What if Michael or Tess died or were killed before giving M/I children? M/I could never find other spouses with which to rear families unless they were also specially engineered. That would take a while unless the aliens had back-up mates for them. Also, this kind of breeding program would have to be very large scale, because with just four podsters, they would be inbreeding in one generation. This whole "C" option is poor and short-sighted.
08-17-2000 08:06 PM
Star2000monkey
Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 40 ROFL - Palomino hopes that Max is not a mule! Oh, me too!
EinTexas - It's Liz behind the door in SH. On the blooper thread, someone mentioned that, and I used the VCR magic to go frame by frame and in the last one, you can see it is she!
Also, in rural areas (similar to where I live - a fairly large town surrounded by lots of small ones), lawyers here are always taking cases in those towns and so having to be there for days or weeks for trials. Many criminal trials in the areas surrounding GJ are defended by lawyers from here.
As far as Mrs. E being stupid -- yeah, but I laugh every time I hear that line!
Back to the sci fi, I have become convinced that the SS are not the same race as M/M/I are or were. Harding certainly seems more like a nanny than anything else. I have also convinced myself (so far) that the podsters were intentionally left on earth to be raised by humans, which is the only explanation for leaving symbols etc for them to understand only when they came of age. Some have mentioned that the crash may have been separate from the leaving of the podsters. It makes sense, particularly when you examine the complexity of the rock/sliding door to the pod chamber, the gestation devices, etc. Somehow, when hatched, they were to be helped to find human parents, but I don't think the SS were ever meant to raise them. Which makes you wonder even more about Tess. It would have been very easy for a SS to find the podsters if he had wanted to, because you know the discovery of the Parker children would have made the news. Court records would record the adoptions, etc. I can only believe he didn't intend to find them, until the time was right.
Also, as far as the vision Max has in SH. It occurred to me that he had never been told by Liz about the visions she had seen in BD, and as far as we know, Max had never had any other visions from her after his healing of her. His breaking off of the kiss in the ER seemed to be surprise -- maybe the first time he had ever seen a vision from Liz while kissing. The other visions (including her fantasy) probably came after that.
Palomino - thanks for your explanations. They have really been useful for someone as cosmologically illiterate as I. I also learned a lot from your explanations of the mating/results. I know I have fits when I see them state something really stupid about math/computers on TV. One I remember from two or three years ago -- A show where the principal was lamenting not having enough money to buy more slide rules!! Just slightly out of date!
08-17-2000 08:16 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Palomino: Thanks for the great post. One of my very first posts on FF I specificaly pointed out that Mommy never said their duty was to "mate". That being the case, it even makes you wonder if they were engineered with reproduction in mind. If they are suppose to come back to the home world, it may have been better to make the podster's sterile. Then when they return, they could "fix" it.
Certainly, the podsters behave normally when it comes to sex. They have a healthy curiousity and libito.
I wish I could talk more about this, but a feeling of cringiness has overcome me. I lean more to your idea that they were designed to be able to breed with humans. If anything, they're bodies prove to be highly adaptive. So, who knows?
Just some more quick points.
Ever notice the orb looks like an egg?
The opening shot of the radio tower has the key of Feb. 2000. Then Liz says it's Feb. 20 in the VO. How long do you think the orb has been going off?
The radio tower was #31. That's 3+1. (hey, know I'm watching for those too.)
I watched for Mr.E's as an alien. What strikes me the most about the four parents together is that MrE, MrP, MrsP seem to know more than MrsE. But then, my bias is showing through.
Oh-- I forgot to say, the picture Liz has in her bedroom next to the 12 pointed star. Doesn't it look like a girl in a pod? I wasn't watching with my glasses on and the picture tube on my tv is dying, but that's what it reminded me off.
From Nebraska Qfanny
[Edited by Qfanny on 08-17-2000 at 09:01 PM]
08-17-2000 09:33 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 647 You guys are being awfully hard on Mrs. E. I rather like her. She is very loving and affectionate with her family, and, yes, she may be a bit naive (well, she is a blonde... sorry, I had to say it) but I think she also has an innate sort of wisdom. She can't be all bad... after all, she did raise Max and Isabel, and they turned out pretty good.
08-17-2000 10:11 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 Actually--MrsE is the best of the mothers, it is really Nancy Parker I have the more problem with!!!
And you are right--both Max and Izzy turned out pretty well!
BTW--how plausible is it that six year olds would not let anything (more than a healed bird) "slip"? I do find that rather strange.
LSS
08-17-2000 10:32 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 Qfanny et al, about Max planting the orb in his former life: I imagined it happening in 1947, then he returned to his home planet, then he came back as a pod in...what was it...1959?
And whoever mentioned the self-satisfied look on TicTac as he looks at M&L in the morning in SH: that is the look Qfanny, GraceKel, myself, and others interpret to mean "mission accomplished: they found the real orb, now I have it, and they have a dud." Remember in White room, having to fake it with the orbs? This seems to pave the way for the Mommogram to be a Tessovision too.
I think Mrs. Evans is playing the dumb blonde to protect Max, whom she knows has secrets. Like in TH when she says innocently to to the Sheriff: "What are you saying? That my son is a healer?" even though she had thought this since the bird incident when he was 6. Likewise, I think the eraser room comment is really just to demonstrate that she has no reason to think anything suspicious about her son. Remember she says she's sure he has a good reason for whatever he was doing.
And LSS, did you notice that the Dr. Doolittle reference in TH is also in Book 8 by Metz? I would love to know if she picked it up from the script or if they picked it up from her book, or if it is just a Roswellian occurrance. There are other phrases like that too.
One more thing: How about if Max & Liz can't get pregnant, but they discover and adopt a podling?
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-17-2000 at 11:05 PM]
08-17-2000 11:16 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 quote:
Originally posted by LSS
rosta: I know that you have felt that Roswell's aliens (of various species) have long had outposts on earth. (In this your thoughts have a overlap with real UFOlogy folk.) Let's go with this for a moment...why do you think that these aliens have not moved forward to "conquer" earth? Or do you envision earth as merely a waystation? Is earth on the periphery of the frontier,or a strategic key to this part of the universe?
LSS, hello! Let me respond to your questions first.
Please visit the SIGNS&SYMBOLS..thread where I have posted the link to a delightful and beautifully illustrated article from Scientific American (July 2000) about colonization of the galaxy (ie, a theoretical timeline) and a very clearly stated analysis regarding the reality of finding life in the universe or making contact. This article represents my thoughts and reasoning in scientific language.
There is some material that may address your question as to why they (aliens) have not acted as conquerors. Perhaps they have. But long ago. Perhaps their numbers were/became too small, disease, death, dissent amongst themselves/factions, they are waiting for a sign, prohibition (as JENLEV mentioned), programming waiting to be initiated. It would be ironic if they respond to a signal from a long dead source for a long dead conflict.
My personal bias, although I keep a very open mind and am not ready to make predictions, is that there are in Roswell/on Earth:
1. Humans 2. Humans who are more human than human (ie, but still of earthly origin) 3. Aliens hiding in plain sight (ancient origins, recent origins, and, though less likely, time travellers) including alien shapeshifters (4. ???beings from other dimensions or the spirit world) ??earthly shapeshifters)
I would not say MY thoughts overlap UFOlogy folk, just only in terms of Roswell. (I do believe there is life in the universe other than on this planet). I think the hints in Roswell point towards there being different types of humanoid life on Earth/in Roswell, whether originating on earth, from a different time, or different world. Those from other parts may have arrived millenia ago, 1947, or they come and go faster than dotcoms.
There are two major story options if one accepts the so-called Whirlwind galaxy of origin.
1. Interdimensional/time travel
2. References to this Galaxy refer to origins that exist only in the collective unconscious, ie, the origins of us all who exist in this Galaxy, therefore we would be spared the technicalities, plot messiness of the above, yet retain the larger mytholoigical foundation for a good sci-fi/drama/romance
The first option is necessary to encompass the time requirements of the events in Roswell, as we are led to believe they occurred.
The second option allows (assuming civilization(s) in the Whirpoolwind galaxy, and that galaxy itself, are much older than the Milky Way and/or Earth):
Common origins (but not excluding ěseedingî of elements of life in comets, clouds, etc) Many of the possibilities outlined in the Scientific American article about the evolution of civilizations (settlement on planets near Earth or Earth itself)
ORBS
The orbs are beacons, bouys, monitors, completely alien and of unknown purpose The obr(s) in Roswell may have nothing to do with the so-called ěcrashî, and are relics from another time/place. Liz just happened to have an innate brain center (?PINEAL) sensitive to some electromagnetic frequency, but SECONDARILY to stimulation from/by Max
THOUGHTS
I am leaning toward the hypothesis that the podsters (except perhaps Tess and/or Harding) are of this earth. If Holo-mom is real, then she is of this Earth, the conflict occurred millenia ago, she and her people are dust , and the Evil!Aliens followed them here, destoyed them and continued to live on Earth. Others came too (or were here already), the Good the Bad and the Ugly. Some just want to live undetected, some are waiting for a ěsignî, some are on vacation and want to have fun..and leave.
SOME HYPOTHESES
Tantalizing thought experiments and permutations include (I happen to like the first one):
1. The podsters are the result of a type of experiment (past or more recent) and their memories were created. They are human, just more human than human. At least M/M/I, if not Tess, were the recipient of some genetic material from the aliens who were the ACTUAL recipients of the ěessenceî.
In other words, the podstersí memories were AN UNANTICIPATED ěSIDE EFFECTî OF THE EXPERIMENT. Therefore, Holo-momís message was NOT directed at the podsters, but at the aliens who (?)landed and died/escaped/etc. and became the source of generic material for the experiments that created the podsters
2. Michael, Tess, Iz, and Max, Liz are not of the same descendants. Michael may be of Earth origins (he may evolve to be a an earth shapeshifter), Max and/or Iz may have alien genes, and Tess and/or Harding may be pure test-tube, and Liz may be all human, but descendant of humans who were more advanced. And then there are the ěnormalî human friends. They were put together to see what would happen.
Hints have been given that Michael is somehow different. He did not trust or bond when he emerged. Perhaps he saw himself as ědifferentî the. Perhaps Michael is the only real deal, more ancient. Perhaps that is why Riverdog cottons to him.
3. There are shape-shifters native to earth, shape-shifters that are not of this earth, and energy beings/guardians/whatever, perhaps from another time.
4. Roswell is a laboratory
5. The ěcrashî was a cover for something being done in/near Roswell
6. The podsters were supposed to wake up MANY years ago.
I think the artifacts are a hint about Hardings longevity.
Rosta
08-17-2000 11:41 PM
ROStaFEHRian
Dedicated Fan Registered: Mar 2000 Posts: 76 quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny The radio tower was #31. That's 3+1. (hey, know I'm watching for those too.)
Hi QFANNY!
About the coffee-coke scene. Nothing major. 3 coffee + 1 coke. Actually, it is a directorial trick. It draws attention to the "odd"/different object or action the way, in old paintings, something off center, out of the geometric symmetry/balance will draw your eye. I was anticipating the parental responses to M&L and watching M&L, and as many times as I watched that scene I could have sworn MrE was having coffee because the "sequence" started and, with my attention not being totally focused, my brain completed the action. When I was focused on observing the parents, it was 1, 2, oh!-he's having a coke, 4. My attention was drawn to him, I noted the clothing. IF he is a shapeshifter, perhaps he might get glucose from dumping sugar in coffee, but perhaps he might get a quicker boost from cola.
Since we don't really know the timeline from when M/L awakened to the time they arrived at the diner, it is possible for any self-respecting SS to get back to town before they did.
quote:
Oh-- I forgot to say, the picture Liz has in her bedroom next to the 12 pointed star. Doesn't it look like a girl in a pod? I wasn't watching with my glasses on and the picture tube on my tv is dying, but that's what it reminded me off.
I totally agree, QFANNY! I felt the exact same way. It appears to be a modern stylized version of the Botticelli Venus (the Venus on the half-shell :-) I was wondering if anyone else noticed. I have been net-searching to find out if it is a "real" copy vs. made up drawing.
Rosta
08-18-2000 03:19 AM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 rosta : About your second speculation on the orbs: If the orbs don't come from the crash, then why is it that one was found at the crash site by the military, and the other was burried by alien running from the crash site? Al sorts of twists can be made to make this look like a lie, but the writers have stretched credibility far enough and can't afford to back-pedal on this, so I think those facts will stick.
About the "Some Hypotheses" statements, I don't even know where to start.
08-18-2000 07:04 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 Just finished reading the Roswell books... In the books, the enslavement takes an interesting twist: When aliens reach maturity (about age 16-18), they go through "akino" in which they have a near-death experience that is sort of a cross between a leaf withering in autumn and a pregnant woman going through labor. The aliens have been led to believe that the only way to survive this experience is to join the Collective Consciousness, which we soon discover is a kind of enslavement in which one surrenders all personal identity to the group. In the TV show, there is the parallel of the "awakening," which is more sexual in nature. The orb seems to take the place of the book's crystals that are required to connect with the consciousness. Now, if the C. Consciousness of the books turns out to be a snare, wouldn't following the Destiny of the orb be similar? Also, in the books, there is a point where the rebels against the CC are led astray by an Evil leader. This would be paralleled by a Mommogram that was well-intentioned but wrong. So, if the orb was switched in the desert, maybe this was Tictacs way of preventing Max & Liz from getting seduced into some sort of enslaving consciousness.
08-18-2000 07:17 PM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Shapeshifter: Glad to see you've read all the books. I always feel weird buying them, so I've only read 1,2,3,4,7,8. I can't find ten yet. I just hate the slicky front cover and some the the cheesy photos.
I like your comparison of the CC to the orbs. I thought that the kitchen vision Liz experience, with the moving stars was not so much a log of travel, but the movement between locations. Like the CC was introducing themselves to Liz.
Isn't it grand the idea of switched orbs? It's like the answer to so many questions and it seems so obvious now! I was thinking more on this watching SH again this evening.
Consider the plan that the podster parents imposed. I think that it's possible that there could have been many different routes for the podsters to take, depending on how things turned out. There could have been plan A, plan B, plan C, etc. What if the switched orb was the message for plan A when really, they need to follow plan C?
Oh, the possibilities. I just hope that I'm not eating my own words come Oct. 2.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
08-18-2000 08:10 PM IP: Logged
Kim648
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 149 Hey guys, just a couple more things..
For why MrE knew they would be on the highway. I'm extremely confused with this, in TH, they act as if their parents had found them in a orphanage, and Isabel doesn't mention anything about wandering around on the road, yet I'm sure in an earlier episode they at least hinted that their parents picked them up on the highway? Maybe the writers decided it wouldn't fit or something.
Okay, I know we're kind of past the kissing and seeing things, but I'm really confused. I thought they saw images because they were able to connect with people/things, so it made sense that jsut the podsters and Liz(because Max had already done a reverse connection on her in the Pilot) but then I don't understand why it stops after finding the Orb. Is it just not as intense as before, or what?
A new idea I can up with, was, I think TicTac was so happy about seeing Max and Liz, because maybe he thought Liz was Tess and everything was going great..other than them finding the Orb.
I think that's really cute with Chaka Khan being played and there's his album Destiny. Do you think there was a cut out scene that tied the name of the album in?
And about Mrs. E. She does seem pretty dumb, not knowing what they were doing, but I think they were trying to exagerate the fact that she knows nothing about her son and she would think Isabel would more likely doing somthing like that rather than Max. In TH they show her interested in the fact that he has a female lab partner, acting like he would never be interested in girls. We have also seen in many cases that she doesn't know about Max's obsession with Liz(before and after the shooting).
In TH again, I think they mention that they didn't know they had powers when they were 6. But as they got older you think they would somehow alert their parents. I'm still a little confused how they knew they were in the crash. Before Harding or Tess came along all they remembered was wandering around in the desert more than 40 years after the crash. Do you think they had some kind of inkling or something? I guess in a town like Roswell, they would be convinced more this, than some kind of psycic powers.
I know we don't usually post pics on here, but I was just comparing the two times the orbs were 'in use'.
As much as I want to believe Tess made them see the momogram, the images are too different. It's not like she had to change it so they wouldn't notice the simularities, because she only made Pierce see that one. Also, look at the pic of first finding the orb, looks a lot like the Destiny pic.. Notice the glow is coming from the symbol in these and Desinty's, but not in WR. Maybe Tess just had a little more time to think about how to make them work. She could of also heard how it worked when they first found them. I hope so!! *crosses her fingers*
Kim
08-18-2000 08:27 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 Kim648, those images certainly show the differences--but maybe Tess purposely made the WR orb action look phony so when she faked the next it would look real? Not likely, though.
What seems more likely--following the book theme again--is that the Mom was being duped into supporting a plot that would only switch one form of slavery for another. If so, Liz will be smart enough to come up with an alternate, more effective plan.
Speaking of orb switching, do we know which orb did the momo message?
And Qfanny, I justified ordering the books from Amazon because I'm a high school librarian and so got re-embursed. Of course, when I take a new job I will have to give them a dust goodbye. But they're pretty cheap. I think the covers are bad because the better shots cost more for reproduction rights.
08-18-2000 08:40 PM IP: Logged
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 QFANNY interesting there is that VENUS coming up AGAIN-yes I noticed this picture and posted on it along time ago myself but did not know there might be a VENUS connection hmmmmm!
Shapeshifter now I see what you are getting at about the CC and the orbs-I think it is quite possible too.
Kim648 in the Pilot Michaels says "IT WAS YOU TWO THE EVANS FOUND ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD, They're like real parents to you, my dad just keeps me around for the monthly check. I am sure the Evans brought them to the orphanage after they found them and then came back and adopted them from the orphanage-that was my take on it anyway!
How did they know they would be there? Well that could be the question but it could be that they were just driving by as well.
The problem with suspecting Mr Evans which I think they have hinted at is that also I think they hinted at Nancy Parker as well in the MISSING ep when she says to Liz about Alex "I guess you're in no great rush to speak with him..." and Liz thinks she read her diary "DID I EVER SAY ANYTHING TO YOU ABOUT ALEX? "No I guess you didn't?" What was that all about? There are others too
and even Mr Parker at the card game in ITW eppy and how understanding he was about letting them explain themselves.
I just wonder which are the red herrings?
08-19-2000 04:30 AM IP: Logged
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 399 Shapeshifter : After watching Destiny again, I think it looks like both orbs are giving off the converging light to show the message and to give the signal that went out of the chamber.
Kim648 : The Evans could not have just kept two foundlings - that is illegal. They would have to have been turned over to authorities until they could be adopted, so both versions are true.
Tic-tac would not have mistaken Liz for Tess, because with the genetic engineering, they know what the podsters look like.
08-19-2000 06:57 AM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 Kim: thanks for the pictures in your post. You're right, the orbs do appear to be working differently, but in WR Tess is making Pierce think that they are working, when actually nothing is happening. I believe Tess when she says she didn't know how they worked. She freaked. She seemed to know nothing about the orbs at all. But she concentrated and faked Pierce out.
These shots are in sequence. The last shot is from Michael's and NasEDo prespective, notice the orbs are not working, but Pierce is still thinking they are.
So the reason why they didn't work the same is because Tess didn't know how they worked. By the end of Destiny, she still wouldn't know how they worked, so how could she "fake" making them work correctly. Still a good idea though. A lot of people thing Mommy was fake, and I've always said that it was real. However, with the discussion of switched orbs, I'm really suspecting foul playing involved and have become more open to "fake" Mommy. Whatever that means.
From Nebraska QFanny!
08-19-2000 12:06 PM IP: Logged
Kim648
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 149 Okay, thanks for the clear up in the adopting thing!! I was always so confused with that.
08-19-2000 12:33 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 LSS, if you're out there somewhere 'beneath a pale moonlight...' (thinking of the theme song from American Tale ): Just wanted to revamp my theory on Max burying the orb in his former life before returning to planet X for martrydom and recloning: Palomino pointed out that we see the burying from inside the 'grave.' So, I now realize Max could only "see" from this perspective if he was inside the orb--as an essence in 1947. Then, with this new theory, the essence was implanted in 1959 or whenever, with the orb having the additional, later function of awakening the podsters to their warrior roles when the alignment of Venus would trigger the orb. On another thread, I suggested that the orb was dug up to get the essence and later re-buried. But now I think the essences entered the alien hybrids electro-magnetically via the orb, in the desert, that fateful night (not 1959 or anytime before 2000), and so, ta-da!, Liz now has the essence of Max's bride (sorry, Tess, get over it).
[Edited by shapeshifter on 08-19-2000 at 12:37 PM]
08-19-2000 05:17 PM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 bumped-- was on page two.
Anyway, what about if the orbs were like eggs for essenses: You find the orb, you get to the pod chamber, the orb transfer the essene into a pod, viola-- new podster?
Yeah, it's nuts!
From Nebraska Qfanny! Remember is not an
08-19-2000 05:31 PM IP: Logged
Alien American
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 84 Just watched SH(I have it on tape)...whoa. Jason and Shiri--chemistry through the roof. Max is an Adonis. Those muscles...god! Jason's a sports freak...so I guess that's why. More muscle-y Max minus mindcontrolling missy on Mondays! I leave for college in a week! *sniffle*. I'm going to miss the Fanforum boards! Anyways. I have an episode of Charmed on my Roswell tape. I don't even watch charmed. That was a weird thing for me to find out. I don't know anyone who watches charmed. Yet again, none of my friends are obsessed with Roswell, either. Oh well.
Favorite lines:
"I'm glowing everywhere...my toes, my heart". Glowing Hickeys rule!
"I didn't care about the stupid flashes. I just wanted us to be close."
Go Maria! Assertion is good, girlie.
~Jen
08-19-2000 07:25 PM IP: Logged
Kim648
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 149 Tha orb idea with the essense is really good. After they found the orb, a couple episodes later he remembered being in the pod also!!(maybe that was just from seeing Tess' face again, though.) For the not so believers of the momogram, maybe Tess or someone related traded it, so it had the momogram and made him think she was there from the beginning and made him kiss her, or something like that.
08-19-2000 08:01 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 Hey, Kim648, Just to stir up more trouble : I am a non-believer in Tess & Max kissing. From Destiny: quote:
LIZ: Can you just do that with everyone? Make them see things that aren't even there?
TESS: Sometimes it's easier to do that than to make someone see something that's right in front of her eyes.
and from WR: quote:
ISABEL: So, I donít understand. Iím going to dream walk to give him the plan, but what are you going to do?
(An agent suddenly appears, and carries Tess away. Isabel goes to follow, when suddenly itís over, and Tess is beside her.)
TESS: Itís ok. Itís ok.
ISABEL: Oh my god, what just happened?
TESS: I made you think something was happening right in front of you when it really wasnít.
ISABEL: Thatís what you did to Max, isnít it? Thatís why he had all those thought about you.
TESS: I can only keep it going for a little while. ...
And, finally, Max's comment from SH on the visions he saw from Liz's mind while kissing her: quote:
MAX: Wait. Please? Listen. Please? The main thing is...I didn't just see what you saw. I felt...what you felt...when you saw me. ...
08-19-2000 08:27 PM IP: Logged
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 Shapeshifter so TAADAA Liz got the bride's essence--sorry Tess get over it! LOL! I think I like this very much!!!!
Also ditto on the shared visions of a supposed kiss that Tess made Liz and Max think happened when it really probably didn't, we know she has the power to make two different people have a vision at the same time. I wonder if there is a limit, I wonder if she could make 4 people have a vision at the same time as well--I am not saying MOMO is faked but IT COULD BE depending on how much the writers want to embrace this!
08-19-2000 09:19 PM IP: Logged
Reggie
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 126 Reggie mumbles to himself, "Well, Shapeshifter's finally lost it."
quote:
Originally posted by shapeshifter Just wanted to revamp my theory on Max burying the orb in his former life before returning to planet X for martrydom and recloning: Palomino pointed out that we see the burying from inside the 'grave.' So, I now realize Max could only "see" from this perspective if he was inside the orb--as an essence in 1947. Then, with this new theory, the essence was implanted in 1959 or whenever, with the orb having the additional, later function of awakening the podsters to their warrior roles when the alignment of Venus would trigger the orb. On another thread, I suggested that the orb was dug up to get the essence and later re-buried. But now I think the essences entered the alien hybrids electro-magnetically via the orb, in the desert, that fateful night (not 1959 or anytime before 2000), and so, ta-da!, Liz now has the essence of Max's bride (sorry, Tess, get over it).
Sigh. Shapeshifter, dear, you do undersatand that the "essence" is what makes Max himself, right? So if you install a new essence in Max, he becomes a different person. Same for Liz. And the personalities that grew there for the past 16 or so years... pfft! Gone.
Don't you think someone would notice if Max and Liz were two completely different people (aside from their looks) when they came back? Nope, sorry, not buying it. They have the same personalities, so no essential changes. (Pun intended, of course.)
IMHO, the orb wanted to be found, and so was sending "Here I am." "Here" included a description of its location as last seen; while being buried. We needed to see the radio tower, because it's a persistant landmark. That's probably why it was buried there; instead of in the middle of the desert, or under a particular cactus. It was probably buried by an alien about to be captured or killed, to keep it away from the humans. They got the other one, though. Since the alien met its fate here, it couldn't have been a podster anyway - they were killed elsewhere.
And for those of you who were asking about Betelgeuse: it's the left shoulder star of Orion, rising about 3:00 AM or so local time. Go out and see the show!
08-19-2000 09:29 PM IP: Logged
LilGuerinAlien
Fan Registered: Aug 2000 Posts: 6 This is my first post. I truly enjoy this thread and read it regularly. Some one stated it was uncharacteristic of Max to joke with Liz about being alien. The ability to laugh at oneself is a very healthy and being able to do so with Liz must be freeing for Max. One problem with Sci-Fi drama is a tendency towards monotone scripted dialogue. I miss the humor injected during the first part of the season. Frankly I connect with 3-D characters. Someone spoke of MrsE being chosen as a earth mother for the podling, I agree. MrsE also more nuturing that the MOG. As a mother I would want my child as far away from danger as possible. The conflict on the alien planet had killed Max and Isobel once already and MOG wants them to come back to possible get killed again, that does not make sense. If my children had a second chance at life I would send those children to a safe place. I would even give up my chance to see them again. MrsE protects M/I from the sheriff's questions in RD, takes the offense with Valenti in TH etc. She also is willing to help Max find his "real parents" when he can't "talk to her" about his secret(TH). For her child she is willing to sacrifice her feeling to give him an emotional peace. This convinces me that the MOG is really a Tessovision(love that term-very clever). Remember the nod between EH/N and Tess in Destiny as her leaves the cave. Perhaps he didn't really go far, perhaps he hung around out of sight and made sure Tess was successful with the MOG. Maybe he even helped with some of the theatrics. ELLIOTT-I like what you have to say about the parents. Many of your observations in other areas are very insightful.
08-19-2000 09:37 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 GraceKel, can't resist stirring up more anxiety (just like the writers, I guess ), but it would really be ulitmately romantic if Max & Tess do a fiancČ thing until it is finally revealed that Liz has the essence--ah, such sweet, repentent reunion . Of course, Max would really kiss Tess during the courtship, but if not seeing the evil within (if she was just a pawn), he would see emptiness and maybe memories of Liz. :
08-19-2000 10:00 PM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000 Posts: 170 quote:
Originally posted by LilGuerinAlien This is my first post. I truly enjoy this thread and read it regularly. MrsE protects M/I from the sheriff's questions in RD, takes the offense with Valenti in TH etc. She also is willing to help Max find his "real parents" when he can't "talk to her" about his secret(TH). For her child she is willing to sacrifice her feeling to give him an emotional peace. This convinces me that the MOG is really a Tessovision(love that term-very clever). Remember the nod between EH/N and Tess in Destiny as her leaves the cave. Perhaps he didn't really go far, perhaps he hung around out of sight and made sure Tess was successful with the MOG. Maybe he even helped with some of the theatrics.
Congrats on your first post. It really made me think that my statements about MrsE were two hard. You're absolutely right. She is a loving and fitting mother for Max and Isabel. They seem to have no complaints with her, so why should I. I guess I am too critical with her because I do want her to know that truth. TH is not one of my favorite episodes because I want Max to give and tell MrsE the truth.
As far as the Mommogram being real or fake. I believe it's real in terms that it was not Tesselvision. Now, I've made many many posts on the possiblity of switched orbs this week. If the orbs were switched, that would jeopardize the validity of the mommogram, or it may not.... But it a much more plot driven way to conteract Destiny's problems and farfetchedness.
From Nebraska Qfanny! Remember is not an
08-20-2000 10:19 AM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 First, a word from our sponser. Everyone right-mouse-click-open-in-new-window on an ad when entering and/or leaving this thread.
And, as Qf would say: Remember is not an
Now... I watched SH last night when it aired here (hoping the reception would be better after midnight--but it wasn't--but that didn't make me turn it off ) and I thought I noticed that TicTac sort of limped down from his perch--like RD limps. Anyone else?
08-20-2000 10:05 PM IP: Logged
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000 Posts: 1325 quote:
Originally posted by shapeshifter LSS, if you're out there somewhere 'beneath a pale moonlight...' (thinking of the theme song from American Tale ): Just wanted to revamp my theory on Max burying the orb in his former life before returning to planet X for martrydom and recloning....On another thread, I suggested that the orb was dug up to get the essence and later re-buried. But now I think the essences entered the alien hybrids electro-magnetically via the orb, in the desert, that fateful night (not 1959 or anytime before 2000),
[Edited by LSS on 08-20-2000 at 10:08 PM]
08-20-2000 11:32 PM IP: Logged
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 647 quote:
Originally posted by Reggie
IMHO, the orb wanted to be found, and so was sending "Here I am." "Here" included a description of its location as last seen; while being buried. We needed to see the radio tower, because it's a persistant landmark. That's probably why it was buried there; instead of in the middle of the desert, or under a particular cactus. It was probably buried by an alien about to be captured or killed, to keep it away from the humans. They got the other one, though. Since the alien met its fate here, it couldn't have been a podster anyway - they were killed elsewhere.
Egad... I find myself wholeheartedly agreeing with Reggie. The orb was sending out the... um ... hormonal signals and visions, sort of like a homing beacon, although why it needed the intense sexual thing is beyond me. Why not just send out a vision or two and be done with it? But it does fit in with the reason that Max and Liz stopped having the visions after they found the orb!
08-21-2000 04:58 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 Latest new theory thought: The orb contains a backup file of the essence implanted in Max in case it is needed so it is essentially an equivalent to Max's pre-hatched years' memory. And, in seeking a reason for the sexual connection to the orb-finding: it also includes an essence for implanting in his mate (Liz). Don't really like this last part--gives me a techno-Frankenstein shudder.
08-22-2000 12:11 AM IP: Logged
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000 Posts: 647 Essence in an Egg? We should post that on the WB Themed Wear thread! Just bumping because I don't think we're through with this yet.
08-22-2000 08:00 AM IP: Logged
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 510 A few random things:
If I remember right, there was a cut scene that explained why Max and Liz stayed at the site after the orb was found: thinking it likely that the orb had sent a signal when unearthed, they wanted to watch in case someone would come in response. While watching the sky, they fell asleep. Ironically, when someone did come, it was from an unexpected direction....
My guess is that both shapeshifters stopped by. First Harding, casting a shadow over Liz. Later, TicTac. (On my interpretation, TicTac is pleased to see Max and Liz together -- his plan is progressing well. Harding goes off to intensify his efforts to supplant Liz; soon after this we see the arrival of Tess.)
Speaking of cut scenes: the rerun has scenes cropped a little shorter than the first run. (At least as broadcast in my area.) This was most evident in the vision scenes.
[Edited by Nemo on 08-22-2000 at 08:04 AM]
08-22-2000 10:58 AM IP: Logged
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 Hey Nemo you're back!!!! I just got done posting the very same idea on SCI FI of Crazy thread---about the shadow being HARDING/Tess and TicTac showing up later happy about the union---that is my take on it as well------now who is the COYOTE howling---I voted that the COYOTE is the same COYOTE that frightened Riverdog in the RIVERDOG eppy---which is HARDING/Tess because if TicTac were present then---then he would have seen the switched orbs---but I don't think he was there to know that they were switched--showed up later to happily see that the pair and was happy and to tell them to get home.
Well Nemo what is your take on the COYOTE I am anxious to know?
08-22-2000 09:20 PM IP: Logged
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 Shapeshifter not a bad idea about the orb retaining backup memory for Max. Certainly an enemy would be anxious to keep Max in the dark.
08-22-2000 10:46 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000 Posts: 605 GraceKel, I hadn't thought about keeping him in the dark, but it makes sense. I was thinking about exterminating the leader. Hey, if it is Max's memories or essence, maybe we could steal it & market them! Or keep them for ourselves!
08-23-2000 08:47 PM IP: Logged
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 1999 Posts: 1030 Very funny SS LOL!!!! Hey Nemo where are you please come back?