Topic: The Science Fiction of the Toy House


LSS

Crazed Fan   Registered: Feb 2000   Posts: 1265   Posted: 07-17-2000 05:17 PM

Tonight's episode gives us a poignant view into what it means to be
young, alien and alone. The closing scene with Izzy in Max's arms
quietly sobbing is enough to drive even the hard-hearted to the
nearest box of tissues!

Aside from the theme of loneliness/alienation, the Toy House gives
us an interesting glimpse into our podsters' powers and Max's
childhood.

1) OUR PODSTERS: THE MISSING YEARS. In Toy House we realize that we
know remarkably little about our podsters' early lives. The video
showing a young Max healing a bird with a broken wing merely teases
us with this gap in our knowledge. Other than images of M/Mi/I in
the pods or wandering alone and being discovered (Pilot, TLV, 4SQ,
etc) the only other references (I think) to their actual childhood
are the photo album (which we don't get to see) mentioned in TLV and
the reference to a vacation trip to FL mentioned in River Dog. All
this brings up
an interesting question: How did Max and Izzy managed to discover
and perfect their powers without themselves being discovered?


2) THE ETHICS OF POWER. Everyone in this episode either uses their
powers or attempts to use them. Izzy changes the color of her
lipstick, Michael attempts to "fix" Maria's napkin holder (before
Maria stops him) and Max--Max saves his Mother from a grease fire.
Undergirding all of these actions (or near actions) runs an ethical
theme about the use of power.

Oddly enough, it is the human "Liz" who delivers notes on "Ethics"
to Kyle (who later discovers she feels "guilty" for distracting him
on the basketball court and for "how it all ended"). Liz, who feels
responsible, tries to make it up to Kyle with a pie! Though she has
no powers--her heart is is bothered and she seeks to make things
"right".

Michael, on the other hand, wants to use his powers to cancel the
debt between he and Maria so he will not "owe" her anything. He thus
seeks to use his power somewhat selfishly. It is Maria who voices a
moral caution...such action is "cheating"...you just can't "wave
your hand over a problem and make it go away."

But of course, to some degreee Maria is wrong. For "waving his hand"
is precisely what Max does over HIS problem (the grease fire) and it
DOES go away--only to be replaced by a more serious one...the
suspicions of both his Mother and the on-going suspicion of Valenti.


Isabel uses her powers recreationally
Michael wants to use his selfishly
And Max...
Max uses his powers to save.

The Ethics of Power. From our post-Destiny POV, how would you
describe our podsters' philosophy concerning the use of their own
power in this first season? Do we have any evidence that they
reflect on this issue?

Do you think in the second season that a case can be made that they
"owe" any loyalty to the planet on which they were raised (and to
the species whose form they carry)? Are they duty bound to use their
powers in the service of Earth and the greater human good? Of course
the species that gave them their form also produced a Pierce...and
the White Room!

Was Max right to save his mom (although risking exposure)?

Is Isabel "right" to use her powers primarily for her own
self-interest?

Was Michael right to want to take the "easy" way out his powers made
possible? Was Maria "right" to label this cheating?

Does power imply responsibility for those without it? Or do our
podsters owe zip to anyone? [P.S. Even their home planet?]

Well folks...what do YOU think?

LSS



jenlev

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 244   Posted: 07-17-2000 07:16 PM

hi there,

it seems that max's reaction to put out the fire was similar to
healing liz: and act of instinct...an automtatic response. as a 6
year old his act of healing the pigeon was similar, an automatic
reflexive response.

i think that living in secret has effected all the podsters ability
to access their abilities. in season 2 if the aspect of secrecy is
diminished this might change? or, perhaps although a few more people
know, the intensitiy of need for secrecy may increase?

as people have mentioned before that might impact their capacity to
be able to 'practice' using their powers.

isabel seems to use her powers to distract herself from emotional
distress. michael seems to use his powers as a form of emotional
expression. max seems to use his powers as a way to deal with
powerlessness.

given the risks involved, and their awareness of them; i get the
sense that the podsters see their powers as something vaguely
threatening (almost as an external threat imposed upon them.) they
are still in the process of developing a 'relationship' with this
aspect of themselves, of integrating it.

despite michael's rage, isabel's ambivalence, and max's
hypervigilance i think they are portrayed as loyal to earth. they
could be expected to be ambivalent about their heritage. they would
also be aware that there are good, bad, and inbetween humans and
aliens everywhere. i'm wondering if this will show up in season 2 as
they deal with the whole 'destiny' plotline.

they don't live in a vacum (so to speak), so their duty to be part
of a community no matter how large is in part a duty to themselves.
this is not to say that they have to give up their right to make
choices though.

for max to hesitate in saving his mother could have been a betrayal
of both his heritages. isabel's use of her powers allows her to fine
tune her skills in a way she might not otherwise get to do.
michael's use of his powers to facilitate a deeper level of
engagement in relationships pushes him to function on a healthier
level?

there is always a level of responsibility involved when one makes
choices... even if the choice is not to 'act' in a manifest way.
it's expectable to address a situation where someone seems to be
taking shortcuts in establishing or maintaining relationships. but
it doesn't necessarily mean that things will turn out to be what
they seemed. sometimes what seems to be a shorcut is really just a
new way to get where one is going.

jenlev

[Edited by jenlev on 07-17-2000 at 07:22 PM]





Kate6058

Crazed Fan   Registered: Jan 2000   Posts: 1263   Posted: 07-17-2000 08:00 PM

I have to say again how much I love this episode. It is my favorite;
when it was over, even though I've seen it many times since it
originally aired, I felt like I'd just seen a new ep. Jason Behr is
so amazing in this episode! One of my favorite scenes is where he
watches himself heal the birds. He doesn't speak, but once again,
his eyes say it all.

LSS - I can see it now... "The Ethics of Powers on ROSWELL" - the
newest lecture added to college curricula across the country. What
I'd give to take that class!! I wonder if the writers make these
parallels on purpose or if things just end up being this way? Max
the healer, Michael trying to "kill" his problems, and Isabel using
hers mostly to her own advantage. I think that these three will
always be loyal to Earth, whether they realize it now or not, and
season two is going to be about figuring that out. Naturally, they
will feel some connection to the "responsibility" thrust upon them
by their home planet, but I don't think they use their powers here
they way they ever would have used them there.

Would they have even had powers on the home planet? Nasedo is an
adult born there with all the powers of MMI&T, so why did they need
to be engineered with advanced human abilities to end up with the
same powers as elders in their home? What does this mean? I do know
that since they are human at heart, the burden of having inhuman
powers probably comes to mind every time a situation arises when
they could benefit another human. But Nasedo, for example, makes no
connection in his mind to help a human. He would have let Liz Parker
die in the cafe that day... not just because he has no heart, but he
has no connection to the current way of life on Earth. So yes, MM&I
probably do feel as if they "owe" humans something, or at least they
might feel a slight twinge of regret each time an incident passes
and they don't help. And Max, by nature, lets these feelings hang
over his head too long. Honestly, Liz is his only key to happiness.

Kate6058

Crazed Fan   Registered: Jan 2000   Posts: 1263   Posted: 07-17-2000 08:22 PM

There is one huge theme (motif? idea?) that we forgot to mention.
It's not that sci-fi, but still...


UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. I love how they pan to Max's face right after
Michael says there is no such thing. Max had been doubting it in the
case of he and his mother... but what about his own love for Liz? He
knows it is unconditional... that is the only sure thing in his
life. In fact, Max may have realized in that moment his
unconditional love for everyone around him.

How does this compare to the alien race? Nasedo says emotions are a
weakness, yet the mom-o-gram insists that she "loves" her children.
The alien race is totally clueless when it comes to dealing with
MM&I; they had no idea it would be this difficult. A perfect example
is Tess. She has witnessed firsthand how impossible it is to break
one from the love he or she has for, simply... life. Will Max,
Michael, and Isabel ever be able to separate themselves for the
unconditional love they have for their lives now?

ROSWELLMOM

Dedicated Fan   Registered: May 2000   Posts: 66   Posted: 07-17-2000 08:57 PM

I also really enjoyed this episode. It really shows the conflict our
podsters must have endured all these years keeping their secret.
Yes, Max definitely should have saved his mom even though it brought
questions from her. As you have already pointed out, Max uses his
power to save and this was a "save" situation. Even though the
episode ended with him telling his mom not to ask again and that it
was not dangerous I feel that sooner or later the mom if not the dad
too will be brought into confidence.
I loved Iz in this episode too. I feel that sometimes she really
feels alone and helpless and by using her powers she gains a sense
of power (make sense??). Max and Michael are always making the
decisions and she more or less has to go along. In this eppy we can
see how she longs to have someone beside Max and Michael to relate
to and talk to about where she is from, why is she is here, etc.
Like she said, there is just something about a mother and a
daughter.
Michael's wanting to use his powers to "fix" Maria's project was
very poignant. I agree that he doesn't want to owe anyone anything.
He wants to be a loner and by helping her out he felt they would be
even.
I think that the podsters will stay loyal to earth because they are
part human (how much we aren't sure). I also think that they all
have a great responsibilty regarding their powers. Towards the end
of the season we can see that they were all realizing what they
could actually do (especially Michael) and how it affects all of
those around them (i.e. helping Max escape, healing, killing, etc.)
Hopefully next season we will see more of this and how their powers
are honed.


LSS

Crazed Fan   Registered: Feb 2000   Posts: 1265   Posted: 07-17-2000 09:31 PM

quote:

Originally posted by ROSWELLMOM
Towards the end of the season we can see that they were all
realizing what they could actually do (especially Michael) and how
it affects all of those around them (i.e. helping Max escape,
healing, killing, etc.)

Yes this IS interesting. Toward the end, Michael watches Nesedo
"kill" with his power and that bothers him immensely. And then
Michael himself kills. Now this latter killing is in self defense
(as we all know) but it is bothersome to Michael. And he is
frightened of not being able to control his powers.

Powers...when I was little my idol was superman. And when supergirl
first appeared I was a goner!!! But the down side of great gifts is
great responsibilities. Perhaps it is not by accident that at
precisely the point when we find that their power are far more
extensive then either they (or we) realized--at that point the
writers saw fit to vastly expand their responsibilities.

Perhaps the old 1st century adage is truer than we think--to the one
who is given much---much is required!

LSS

P.S. BTW I find it VERY interesting that in the midst of all
this...both Liz and Maria in different ways function as moral
examples/beacons in this eppy.





Reggie

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jul 2000   Posts: 92   Posted: 07-17-2000 09:37 PM

quote:

Originally posted by Kate6058

Would they have even had powers on the home planet? Nasedo is an
adult born there with all the powers of MMI&T, so why did they
need to be engineered with advanced human abilities to end up with
the same powers as elders in their home?



Do we know this? "Harding" has at least some physical abilities: he
has the killing touch, shapeshifts and can alter matter (two
applications of the same ability?), and can do the hand-blast thing
like Michael. We haven't seen any mental abilities. We don't know if
he is the same kind of alien as the pre-podsters, but he is probably
different from Tic-tac. (They shapeshift differently, etc.) Perhaps
the podsters are of Tic-tac's people, and Harding is the Enemy?
Liz's experience suggests that.

Why Earth? Perhaps because we have, at least in potential, an array
of abilities similar to the pre-podsters' people. We also probably
have more "heart" than the Enemy; see the Harding vs. Tic-tac
discussion. This also suggests that Tess, for all her faults, may be
a true podster. She also seems to have a heart.

LSS

Crazed Fan   Registered: Feb 2000   Posts: 1265   Posted: 07-17-2000 09:45 PM

quote:

Originally posted by Kate6058
LSS - I can see it now... "The Ethics of Powers on ROSWELL" - the
newest lecture added to college curricula across the country.
....
Would they have even had powers on the home planet?



Hey--don't laugh. I know of classes in physics, sociology, etc. in
bona fide universities that were based on the Star Trek universe!
Whatever sustains students' attention works for me! My problem is
that I just can't find a group of Roswell oriented students. And
believe me I've tried. There is not a class I've taught that hasn't
heard my Roswell lecture! Maybe I'll try the student newspaper.

Would they have had powers on their home planet? That is a VERY good
question. You know the momogram seemed to imply that maybe the
powers they have might be different from those on the home planet.
Didn't she say they had to learn how to use "these" powers? I keep
coming back to the idea that good old earth must have something that
is of use--either some knowledge or some power unique to humankind.
I mean--why send your future leader to a planet inhabited by
enemies? Surely there is nothing that he can learn about the enemy
that they don't already know back home. Unless there is something
about this human form/powers that will enable them to identify it
more easily?

What do you think Kate?

LSS

P.S. Thanks for starting up the SF of the New Spoilers thread...how
I missed our long discourses and vents against the future arcs.

GraceKel

Addicted Fan   Registered: Dec 1999   Posts: 862   Posted: 07-17-2000 10:25 PM

I loved this episode, I thought this was a powerhouse episode, one
of Roswells best! I think Max and Isabel gave outstanding
performances, very emotional ones.

As for the unconditional love question, I truly felt that after
Liz's reaction in the Balance episode, and Max getting the wrong
idea about it, he started retreating back into his shell, figuring
his mother could have the same reaction, wanting to but not totally
being able to deal with it-so I think he was coming from a somewhat
bitter place, "we are alone here, stop pretending its different!"

I am also struck by the fact that Isabel says to her Mother, "the
day you and Daddy came for us that is the day our lives began."

but for Max he tells Liz in 285S "it seems like my life didn't start
til I told you the truth that day."

I did notice Isabel telling her mother, "you were like the sun" and
it does seem significant like Nemo said.

Okay I am going to post this don't laugh but when Earth Mother and
Isabel were in her room and Mother is saying, "there must be some
memories you have of the past", right beside her is a poster on the
wall with a male face(I thought it looked somewhat like Pierce's
face but it could be someone else) it stayed in the shot with the
MOM for quite a long time--the poster says "Sebadoh" or something
like that. I don't know what this means, is it a group? Does anyone
know, then I started thinking about the rumors of SEBASTIAN? It
could be something or it could be my overactive imagination with the
background scenery. Anyone?

As for their powers I will have to give that more thought b4 I
respond to that.

Kate6058

Crazed Fan   Registered: Jan 2000   Posts: 1263   Posted: 07-17-2000 11:07 PM

GraceKel, I think the continuity there is actually okay... Isabel
has always been okay with her life; she had a lot of friends and
went out on dates and branched out as much as she could. Max,
though... he's right, his life didn't start until he told Liz. Like
his mother said, he's always been so private, such a loner... he was
looking for a deeper connection than what he felt to his sister and
parents to let him open up, and he found it in Liz. That's just his
nature. I don't think Isabel can understand that, really. But she
was probably just meaning that their lives as humans began when the
Evanses picked them up on the side of the road, not that they
actually started living. Hmmm... when you really think about it, I'm
not sure Isabel has really started living. Max has, and that's why
he can't be apart from Liz... but has Isabel ever really been
satisfied?

Lameduck

Fan   Registered: May 2000   Posts: 47   Posted: 07-17-2000 11:08 PM

Does Michael actually use his powers to fix things with Maria? He
tries to at first but then plays by her rules to make the napkin
holder the normal way. After all the note on it says HANDMADE by
Michael.
On a second note, and this isn't really a sci-fi point, the entire
time I was watching the home movie with the birds, I kept thinking
about one of the apocrypha books (the protoevangilium of James?)
which tries to show Jesus as a child, and in it Jesus throws a clay
bird in the air and it becomes alive and flies away. There's been
Max/Christ parallels drawn before and this just struck me as more of
the same.

Kate6058

Crazed Fan   Registered: Jan 2000   Posts: 1263   Posted: 07-17-2000 11:11 PM

Oh no, please, no christ figures... this is the sci-fi thread!

shapeshifter

Dedicated Fan   Registered: May 2000   Posts: 448   Posted: 07-17-2000 11:18 PM

What if (here we go again), Mommogram was an earthling abductee, and
her ovum supplied the human DNA for the podsters? Perhaps the use of
power without 'ethics' (based on the ability to feel love) had
brought about the virtual genocide of both factions of the civil war
on the home planet. Nasedo and some others brought them to earth to
keep the essences alive and to reproduce for future repopulation of
the Home Planet--and revival of Mommo and others? If they did share
the same mother's DNA, well, that would settle the Tess issue.

Excuse me, back to serious Ethics...
It is pretty neat that they brought out issues of unconditional love
between son and mother. And forgiveness and repentence with Liz and
Kyle--my daughter & i noticed he was watching a TV show with someone
screaming repeatedly "hang it up!" and then switched it to sports
when he thought Liz would see. But in the end (at the Cafe) he lets
down his guard.

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 183   Posted: 07-17-2000 11:23 PM

Emotions + Control/Focus = Human Powers

I think one of the key issues here is how they deal with different
emotional situations, for instance Michael's reaction at the ball
game and Iz's fear of losing her mother. I think that emotion is the
key to their powers, maybe it is this element that defines the human
powers that they possess. So far the main powers that seem
influenced by emotions are Max's and Michael's healing powers (which
I don't believe are wholy molecular manipulation since they see
flashes when they heal somebody), Isabel's dreamwalking abilities,
and Tess's mind game and emotional manipulation abilities (LSS put
down the pie...). We also know that Max, Michael, Isabel and now Liz
can all see flashes when things get emotionally heightened. I can't
think of any instance where Tess has shown definitively that she has
this ability. They all seem to access these powers when they are
able to focus their emotions and channel their energy into the
portion of the brain that controls these abilities.

Harding doesn't seem to possess any of these abilities which leads
me to believe that they are human in origin. Maybe the aliens
evolved their powers by denying their emotions, afterall Harding
said that emotions are a weakness. (Yet another indication that he's
not on their side).

One last thing, who does Max turn to when he's agitated about his
argument with Isabel, Liz. She is his sounding board, his voice of
reason and solace when things look bad. He did the same thing for
her in Leaving Normal. This just shows the Yin and Yang of their
relationship, they balance each other. I think this is a good
example of turnabout is fair play: Liz turns to Max in her moment of
emotional turmoil in LN, and Max does the same thing here.


[Edited by rocklowery on 07-17-2000 at 11:30 PM]





shapeshifter

Dedicated Fan   Registered: May 2000   Posts: 448   Posted: 07-17-2000 11:45 PM

quote:

Originally posted by rocklowery
...who does Max turn to when he's agitated[?]...Liz. She is his
sounding board, his voice of reason and solace when things look
bad...


That stuck out for me this time too.

Also, I hadn't noticed the first time I saw it that Mrs. Evans lies
to the Sheriff to protect Max. Another ethical choice!

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 183   Posted: 07-17-2000 11:53 PM

quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter

Also, I hadn't noticed the first time I saw it that Mrs. Evans
lies to the Sheriff to protect Max. Another ethical choice!



When was this? I must've been distracted by my 4-year old.

shapeshifter

Dedicated Fan   Registered: May 2000   Posts: 448   Posted: 07-18-2000 12:05 AM

quote:

Originally posted by rocklowery
quote:

Originally posted by shapeshifter

Also, I hadn't noticed the first time I saw it that Mrs. Evans
lies to the Sheriff to protect Max. Another ethical choice!



When was this? I must've been distracted by my 4-year old.



I don't see it in the transcript, will look at my tape later. But
I'm pretty sure she told him in their last conversation that she had
never noticed anything about him having any healing abilities. Then,
later she tells Max she has never forgotten about the bird. Maybe it
was a look of innocence rather than a verbal denial.


And, Kate6058: Sorry, but Sci-Fi is chock full of types of Christ.
Surely you've read Stranger in a Strange Land?

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 104   Posted: 07-18-2000 12:16 AM

quote:

Originally posted by GraceKel

Okay I am going to post this don't laugh but when Earth Mother and
Isabel were in her room and Mother is saying, "there must be some
memories you have of the past", right beside her is a poster on
the wall with a male face(I thought it looked somewhat like
Pierce's face but it could be someone else) it stayed in the shot
with the MOM for quite a long time--the poster says "Sebadoh" or
something like that. I don't know what this means, is it a group?

I noticed that sign, too. The camera focussed on it several times
during that conversation. I couldn't make out the graphic on the
poster, but one side said "Sebadoh," which is a rock group (though a
little passe, and artsy for a small-town teen who likes Ricky
Martin), and the other half said "The (couldnt' make out last word,
though I think it started with an S). After this, I'll have to look
up Sebadoh's album names.

There were a lot of rock group posters, and other entertainment
posters I couldn't quite read, even when they showed up in several
shots. Other curious signs n' symbols:

1) There was a lot of orange onscreen tonight. There was often
orange lighting in scenes where you wouldn't have expected it.There
were many orange room accents. When only Mrs. Evans was onscreen,
there was more of a yellow light and a lot of moss green furniture.
The podsters were lit with rich orange in some rather odd
situations, like mid-day sunlight through a window. But I think
humans as well as podsters were lit with orange. Maybe only when
they had scenes together.

2) In the opening sequence, Mrs. Evans is asking Max about Liz. He's
telling her that they are just friends, and as he says the word
"friends," the fire breaks out.

3) When Max is telling Isabel about the fire, there are a couple of
shots where they sit in front of, and on either side of, a roughly
2-foot high scale model of an electricity-generating windmill. It's
way too big to be a decoration for a model train layout, and it's
rather complicated-looking for a shop class project. The show has
never shown Max engaging in any hobbies. It seems like he'd have to
have an ongoing interest in, say, alternative energy sources, to
choose such a kit to build.

4) The Roswell High basketball team is called the Comets. One theory
about the origin of life on Earth has the first organic compounds
introduced by comets.

5) There's a hand-painted poster that shows up in a couple of shots
during the game. It shows an orange ball, darker near the edges,
brighter in the middle. In context, it's supposed to resemble a
basketball. It has a big yellow "GO" painted over it. The word
"ROSWELL" is painted in black underneath. Around the ball are lines
that indicate motion, and possibly heat. It looked like there was a
tan hand on one side and a gray hand on the other, but I couldn't be
sure. It made me think of Nemo's theory about an exploding red star.


6) Micheal wore a tshirt that said "Lee Bros." in orange ink. Could
anyone figure out what the picture was underneath?

7) When he's in the hall, right before he sees Maria (I gather he
was waiting there for her to be done with shop class), there's a big
white and blue sign with that saying about random acts of kindness
and senseless acts of (something) on the wall behind him. But as
others have pointed out, his action was not random, senseless, or
altruistic.

8) Wild Isabel Kingdom: among her clothes today was a zebra-print
blazer. A few weeks ago, she wore a leopard-print blouse. Katherine
Heigl said in an interview somewhere that she's started buying
leather clothes because she liked how the leather in Isabel's
wardrobe looked on her.

I have some thoughts about the story tonight, as well, but I'll post
them tomorrow.

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 104   Posted: 07-18-2000 12:21 AM

quote:

Originally posted by Lameduck

On a second note, and this isn't really a sci-fi point, the entire
time I was watching the home movie with the birds, I kept thinking
about one of the apocrypha books



Bird reference reminds me: I think this was just a sort of pun told
with sound effects, rather than anything deep, but I thought it was
amusing. Max is listening to the band Counting Crows when he
realizes his mother is watching that tape because he hears the
sounds of a bunch of birds on it.

amx

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Mar 2000   Posts: 441   Posted: 07-18-2000 12:43 AM

Evening all - I've been MIA from the Sci Fi threads for a while as a
consequence of work committments (again)! Just a short post - for a
change.

Kate6058, please read past this post as it has messianic content
(LOL - really!). As those who 'know' me realize, I see a deep
connection between the mythology underpinning the plot and the sci
fi elements that are being woven in. However, in comparison to
Rosta, my views are half formed musings at best!

Anyway, in respect of the ethical foundation for the use of the Pod
Squad's powers, from a post-Destiny viewpoint, I feel that we can
see a rationale for Isabelle's essentially recreational use of her
power. Max, in accord with the messianic overtones to his character
(good call on the apocrypha LameDuck, I have often thought of that
story myself, but never posted about it) appears to have a clear
internal rational for using his powers - healing being the prime
cause to do so. Michael also, despite his inability to exercise fine
control, appears to attempt to use his powers only in situations
that are (to his mind at least) important, in particular his quest
for knowledge and protection of Max/Isabelle. I would also place
'evening the score' with Maria in this category, given his
overwhelming need to be obligation free (at this point in the
narrative at least). Post- Destiny, both Max and Michael have clear
roles and clear mandates to use their powers, which can be tracked
back through the character development stages (although with
admitted greater difficulties in Michael's case). In Isabelle's
case, though, she is afforded no larger role than galactic geisha,
with no further reason advanced for her (or She Who Shall Remain
Nameless for that matter) to have powers at all; no clear mandate is
afforded her. However, a geisha's role is to comfort and amuse, so
use of powers for 'recreational purposes' is to me understandable in
this context.

amx


pixiedude

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 104   Posted: 07-18-2000 01:29 AM

So I just checked out Sebadoh's home page:

http://www.sebadoh.com/

The words on the right-hand side of the poster must have been "The
Sebadoh," the name of their most recent album, which I think is a
few years old (didn't see a release date, but I'm pretty sure I read
an article about it in a local rock magazine around 1996).

I was disappointed, hoping the words would be more relevant. But
looking around the rest of the website, I wouldn't be surprised if
some of the band members are scifi fans. One link from their home
page tells people how to join Team Sebadoh on the SETI project:

http://www.sebadoh.com/features/seti.html

the link is subtitled "The Search for Intelligent Life," and the
page includes a few pics of Area 51. etc.

I don't like the idea that the writers are planting clues so subtle
that you have to thoroughly examine the websites of obscure rock
bands (eg, last week's discussion of The Descendents) to find them.
But on Sebadoh's merch page:

http://www.sebadoh.com/buy.html

scroll down about 3/4 of the way, and there's a "blk Science tee
$15", shown front and back. The back is eerily relevant to "Toy
House;" the front may be taken as a comment on the bad aliens (OK,
this is stretching it).

As I have too much time on my hands, I checked out the link to the
lyrics of "The Sebadoh." The words to the songs were kind of generic
lovelorn angst, and I didn't read many of them. But I had to laugh
when I saw that one of the song titles was "Bird in the Hand."

http://members.tripod.com/dranes99/thesebadoh.htm

[Edited by pixiedude on 07-18-2000 at 01:35 AM]





amx

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Mar 2000   Posts: 441   Posted: 07-18-2000 01:47 AM

pixiedude - what interesting things you ferret out as a consequence
of having 'too much time'!

amx

jenlev

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 244   Posted: 07-18-2000 03:46 AM

hi there,

in thinking about the powers that the podsters have: when they were
younger they had intact super-egos/ consciences in order to set
limits internally and as a team. imagine a podster at age 7 or 8 or
12 (or whenever) who didn't already have a sense of the potential
consequence of using their abilities indiscriminantly.

so did the podsters emerge at age 6 with a set of 'pre-developed'
sense of morals and boundaries? are these morals part of the alien
essence, the engeneered human development, or what? which came
first?

there are so many sci-fi stories where the crux of the dilema is to
use power effectively but honorably. often the scale tips in the
wrong way. nasedo might be a good example. also pierce (using
mundane human power that is). valenti is another example of someone
who has to come to terms with how he uses his power (as a sheriff).

jenlev





JayJay

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 330   Posted: 07-18-2000 05:43 AM

quote:

Originally posted by rocklowery


One last thing, who does Max turn to when he's agitated about his
argument with Isabel, Liz. She is his sounding board, his voice of
reason and solace when things look bad. He did the same thing for
her in Leaving Normal. This just shows the Yin and Yang of their
relationship, they balance each other. I think this is a good
example of turnabout is fair play: Liz turns to Max in her moment
of emotional turmoil in LN, and Max does the same thing here.


Very interesting I agree that they both turn to each other. But in
this episode, Max came to Liz but Liz wasn't there for Max. He
came to her say that he was ok with her see Kyle when he really
wanted to talk about his mother. By doing this she got upset &
said that she didn't need his permission. Then he got upset. She
did realize that he needed to talk. But then pounced on him saying
he was controling. Come on so is she. She needs to go to that Psyc
class also. All said & done, he never did talk to her about his
problem.

LSS

Crazed Fan   Registered: Feb 2000   Posts: 1265   Posted: 07-18-2000 06:21 AM

As for the apocryphal gospels--You won't believe it, but my original
post had a whole section on it that I deleted. But since you brought
it up....here is an edited version that dialogues with Kate:

The issue of the child Max and his powers is not unlike that found
in the first centuries concerning the childhood of Jesus. The NT
gospels say little about Jesus' childhood. Far more attention is
paid to his miracles and teachings as an adult. Perhaps because of
this gap, questions arose on how this godling (Jesus) handled his
power as a child. Here are just a few:

a) Jesus fashions birds of clay that come alive and fly off--on the
Sabbath no less! (this bears a passing similarity to our Max/bird
scene)

b) Jesus gets angry at a child who jostles him and then strikes him
dead (later he has to heal him, after all the neighbors are not
happy campers by this time)

c) Jesus helps Joseph in the shop by making a board cut too short
"grow"...etc.

What does the above have to do with Roswell or SF, Kate?

Well it serves as an analogue to precisely what you have in the
cases of Max and Isabel. Both have powers. Both are very young when
found. Both would have had to learn how to use those powers
appropriately (in the apocryphal stories of Jesus, Joseph has to
"teach" his son proper power manners!). But neither Max nor Izzy
have a mentor. Neither have a parent who can guide them in this
issue because neither Philip nor Diane "know" their children's true
identity or powers.

The early church struggled with the issue of exactly WHEN Jesus
"knew" who he was.

WHEN do our podsters find out that they are really aliens? You know,
fanfic writers have explored this but our TV writers really have
not.

In other words, Kate, apart from any reference to a messianic role
for Max, the apocryphal gospels show us the kinds of issues raised
concerning the presence of a child with powers within a community of
mudane humans--and some of the situations that might arise when
power/childish will/frail humanity are all brought together!!! This
is what you must have had with M/Mi/I as children unless you posit
them emerging from the pods as fully mature and morally responsible
beings.

There is a lot of room for flashbacks here to fill in and explore
this largely untouched narrative area. Maybe next fall?

LSS

[Edited by LSS on 07-18-2000 at 06:24 AM]





tanchel

Fan   Registered: May 2000   Posts: 40   Posted: 07-18-2000 08:11 AM

Oooooo, all sorts of good questions!

I think we've seen an evolution of their abilities over the season.
Max healing Liz left very specific residual clues that didn't seem
to remain from healing Kyle, though he'll probably have the nice
silver handprint. Isabel's recreational use of her power gave her
much more control over her abilities, but she went from color-coding
her lipsticks to using her gift to find Max and save Nacedo, which
implies a much more thoughtful, responsible use of that gift.

Michael's emotional turmoil kept much of his power beyond him, but
by the end, he has at least tapped into that power and is forced to
start accepting the ramifications of it. He really can't just wave
his hand over the problem to make it go away. And, on a side note, I
imagine Michael's attempt to 'fix' the napkin holder might have been
even funnier than his attempt to 'fix' the car in 285 South, at
least in that point in the season.

We don't know have an evolution of Tess' gift; we've only seen the
mental smoke-and-mirrors she can do. I'll be interested to see if
she accepts any kind of moral limitations on the use of her gift
next season.

Okay, getting way sci-fi/metaphysical now, and bringing in some Star
Wars (forgive me). In the novels detailing that universe post-Return
of the Jedi, one of the biggest issues is the ethical use of the
Force. There are, most of the time, very specific rules about what
is or is not acceptable, with of course the threat of the 'dark
side' overhanging everything. For example, Jedi aren't not supposed
use their abilities in the same manner Tess does, even though they
might in desperate situations. But it leaves a tainted feeling
somehow.

The question of responsibility for others is also a big one. Luke
goes through a period where he attempts to 'save' everyone, even
from the consequences of their own actions. It leads him to greater
and greater uses of his power, all with the assumption that he knows
best. Finally, there's a moment when he realizes that while his
power does obligate him to protect the innocent from evil, the
innocent do have the right to make their own decisions and accept
the consequences of them, even if those decisions are phenomenally
stupid.

In our Roswell world, we've seen Max try and make decisions for the
people around him, and Michael has done the same, all with the idea
of doing what's best for everyone. Liz confronts Max on this very
control issue, and Maria has certainly suffered from Michael's
decisions. Isabel was confronted back in Heat Wave when she used her
snooping around in Alex's dream to try and manipulate him. He nails
her on it, and rightly so. Tess hasn't been confronted yet, but
again, it'll be interesting to see what consequences come from her
use of her power.

shapeshifter

Dedicated Fan   Registered: May 2000   Posts: 448   Posted: 07-18-2000 08:30 AM

Too many wonderful things to respond to here, esp. LSS & jenlev &
pixiedude. I'd say 'maybe later,' but tomorrow never comes. Just
wanted to post something while we're still on this ep: The whole
incident with the Sheriff was foreshadowing of Destiny when he
learns the truth and Max heals Kyle. If the season were one book,
the turning point of this subplot would have been when Valenti saves
Max from Hubble. Without the sci-fi powers, of course, this story
would have no vehicle. And this whole subplot can be seen as a
metaphor for the larger story of obligation as revealed in the
Momogram. The napkin holder incident in turn can be seen as a micro
version of the tale. Then, on more universal level, there is (as I
think LSS began with) the issue of using power for good or for evil
and when do the ends justify the means?

Dawn

Addicted Fan   Registered: Dec 1999   Posts: 941   Posted: 07-18-2000 09:45 AM

So many enlightening thoughts and opinions and Thank you LSS I'm
with Kate-wish I could sign up for a class.
On the unconditional love issue,while I believe that Max and Liz
definitely have it,it was especially poignant in the scene between
Max and his Mom where she says "Nothing you are could turn me
against you" (or something to that effect).She expresses what we
hope all mother's would-that there is no reservations or limitations
on the love she feels for her son.How sad that knowing this, he
still felt it was for the greater good not to reveal himself.
Also I think Liz expresses herself freely to Max and is his equal
partner in every way.She is the one person that doesnt seem to
hesitate to tell Max the things he may not always want to hear.He
was increasingly off balance in this episode until he went to see
Liz.I love her choice or words"Maybe you should have some FAITH in
the people around you." It was only after his talk with her that he
seemed to find the strength and go on faith that his mother would
accept him,though once again on his terms.

Whiteotter

Dedicated Fan   Registered: May 2000   Posts: 173   Posted: 07-18-2000 10:12 AM

What a great thread. So many good insights to what is now one of my
favorite eps!

Watching last night, I saw a poster behind Michael when he's waiting
for Maria after her shop class (she's already found the
napkin-holder in her locker). The sign reads:

"Today, I will commit one random act of senseless KINDNESS ... Will
You?"

I thought it was a thought-provoking sign to place in that scene and
was of interest to this thread.


LSS

Crazed Fan   Registered: Feb 2000   Posts: 1265   Posted: 07-18-2000 10:45 AM

quote:

Originally posted by Whiteotter
Watching last night, I saw a poster behind Michael when he's
waiting for Maria after her shop class (she's already found the
napkin-holder in her locker). The sign reads:
"Today, I will commit one random act of senseless KINDNESS ...
Will You?"

Whiteotter:

Welcome to the SF threads!

Well done!!! What a nice piece of irony! What started out as a bit
of selfishness on Michael's part (to settle a debt) does somehow
turn to more gracious act by that part of the eppy (because he was
willing to go the extra mile and "hand" make it). And that sign
perhaps reminds us of this. Of course the act is anything but
random...but Michael is "on the road" so to speak.

You know, this is not the first time we see this statement. Remember
in Pilot when Izzy describes Max's actions as a "random act of
lunacy"? It is a kind of bastardization of the original idea in this
eppy.

Odd--the only ones I can envision doing a random act of kindness is
Max and ALL of the humans (A/M/L--and yeah, even K). Hmmmm...

LSS

GraceKel

Addicted Fan   Registered: Dec 1999   Posts: 862   Posted: 07-18-2000 10:59 AM

JayJay I think Liz and Max did have that conversation after all, the
fact that Max could even think that Liz would go back to Kyle and
forget about him was showing that he did not truly trust her
feelings YET! This is the same reservation he has about his mother,
so Liz tells him, "that he should have FAITH in the people around
him. That is why I believe he went and spoke to his mother, although
he did not reveal everything to her, they came to an understanding,
I think, thanks to his conversation with Liz. That was my take on it
anyway.

Pixiedude was it you who brought up this WINDMILL, I posted along
time ago that I saw this in Max's room also, Liz in Blind Date has a
pic on her wall with the same WINDMILL(well not the same but a
windmill) and also in 285S when Kyle pulls out onto the HWY you see
a WINDMILL along the Road? What does this mean? Anyone?



huggybehr

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Apr 2000   Posts: 120   Posted: 07-18-2000 11:02 AM

Gracekel, I agree that the events in the Balance and Liz's reaction
may have influenced his decision not to tell his mother the truth in
this episode. Michael's comment about there being no such thing as
unconditional love, seemed to resonate with Max. It's not until
Sexual Healing that Max finally discovers exactly how Liz feels
about him (when he sees her locker room fantasy). Perhaps this will
be the start of him having the confidence to open up to his mother
in series 2.

JanetMG

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Dec 1999   Posts: 259   Posted: 07-18-2000 11:11 AM

The Ethics of Power--Great topic. I don't have time to post much of
anything now, but I'm very glad I stopped by & read all of your
interesting posts.

I really don't think the writers have spent much time on it. Max
grappled w/the ethics of using his powers a little in Leaving Normal
(I'm not God) and seemed to question ethically Isabel's
dreamwalking. Further, ethics may have been behind his hesitation in
healing Kyle (but that's not clear to me). I sincerely hope the
writers do spend more time on it. (And, as I think I've been whining
since the first sci fi thread (sorry to be repetitive), I'd still
love to know what all "The Rules" are and when and how M/M/I
developed them. They not only didn't have a mentor, they didn't
really have any analogous "real-life" frame of reference.)

LSS

Crazed Fan   Registered: Feb 2000   Posts: 1265   Posted: 07-18-2000 01:29 PM

quote:

Originally posted by GraceKel
JayJay I think Liz and Max did have that conversation after all,
the fact that Max could even think that Liz would go back to Kyle
and forget about him was showing that he did not truly trust her
feelings YET! This is the same reservation he has about his
mother, so Liz tells him, "that he should have FAITH in the people
around him. That is why I believe he went and spoke to his mother,
although he did not reveal everything to her, they came to an
understanding, I think, thanks to his conversation with Liz. That
was my take on it anyway.


GraceKel:

You are right on target!!! Even though Liz sounds "harsh" in that
conversation, it is for Max's own good. Let's face it--he IS
controlling (and so is she for that matter--but in this scene, my
sympathies are with her!).

Well done! As for the windmills....Nemo? amx? rosta? When I think of
windmills I think of either "power" or "dreams" (i.e. Don Q.).
???????????

LSS


[Edited by LSS on 07-18-2000 at 03:53 PM]





BehrAll

Level 4   Registered: Apr 2000   Posts: 678   Posted: 07-18-2000 03:44 PM

Hi, I just wanted to comment on the windmill imagery -- hey, someone
else brought it up.

Wind (imagined, dreamed, envisioned) can be symbolic of a person's
spirit or life force and the changes it goes through. A windmill,
arguably, captures and harnesses the wind, making change a powerful
(hopefully constructive) event.

In view of the podsters' "awakening" (whether hormonal, otherworldly
or whatever) and the results (interactive hickies, finding the orb,
visions etc.), this seems significant. And Liz and Kyle, of course,
are the two humans healed by Max, one heralding a time of change,
the other marking the end of it (and perhaps the transition to the
next?).

The blades of a windmill, moreover, cross each other, and while I
won't go into religious imagery, I think it's universally understood
that crucifixion in any context can represent suffering. The
revolving of a windmill's blades suggest (to me) a cyclical -- but
controlled -- pattern of pain and growth.

Two specific instances come to mind: Max insisting on "Discovery on
our own terms,"
and the irony of him learning about his alien self as a result of
interrogation and torture.

Water, of course, is the substance being controlled -- and while the
meaning of water symbolism varies according to medium and cultural
influence, it usually represents the emotional state of the
unconscious mind or soul, and often carries sexual overtones.

The fact that Max' models are dry and do not actually process water
yet suggests many things, from sexual immaturity (or, sexuality
unrealized) to the extreme repression of emotion. (I find myself
wondering if, during the upcoming season, and as the relationships
between both aliens and humans shift, we'll see a working model of a
windmill anywhere, and if so, will the water run clear or murky?)

Oh, and since I'm blathering on anyway, regarding the associations
made between Isabel and the sun, does anyone think it's at all
meaningful that she accessed Tess' file under the guise of heading
up a "Sunshine Committee"?

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 183   Posted: 07-18-2000 04:57 PM

quote:

Originally posted by JayJay


Very interesting I agree that they both turn to each other. But in
this episode, Max came to Liz but Liz wasn't there for Max. He
came to her say that he was ok with her see Kyle when he really
wanted to talk about his mother. By doing this she got upset &
said that she didn't need his permission. Then he got upset. She
did realize that he needed to talk. But then pounced on him saying
he was controling. Come on so is she. She needs to go to that Psyc
class also. All said & done, he never did talk to her about his
problem.



Actually he did in an oblique way when he made the comment about
Isabel. He came to Liz to talk to her about the whole situation, not
just about his mother. I think Dawn, a few posts down from this one
does a good job of summing it up. Liz helped him to see that maybe
he could talk to his mother about trusting him and his need for
privacy regarding this issue. Sometimes you need a good whack over
the head to get things back into perspective. That is how Liz came
through for him in this instance.

jenlev

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 244   Posted: 07-18-2000 05:01 PM

hi there,

shapeshifter: thank you! and by the way, if one isn't clear about a
specific goal how does the means of reaching it get assessed? even
thought the podsters have the destiny message they don't have many
details of the situation etc. and they may not even trust it's
reality?

the gaps in their knowledge make it even more difficult for them to
assess the ethics of how they chose to respond to the
'dread-momogram'. does this complicate the idea of the issue of
deciding if the "ends justify the means"?

behrall: about windmills, sorry if this is a repeat... i didn't see
it... but what about the metaphor of 'don quixote' taking on an
impossible task by tilting at windmills? does the whole destiny
scenario become a humongo windmill that podsters tilt at-- as far as
the alien planet is concerned? addressing the evil alien situation
on earth might be more realistic? not sure if this makes sense... or
if i even like the idea.

jenlev

[Edited by jenlev on 07-18-2000 at 06:28 PM]





Nemo

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Dec 1999   Posts: 484   Posted: 07-18-2000 05:05 PM

quote:

Originally posted by BehrAll

...regarding the associations made between Isabel and the sun,
does anyone think it's at all meaningful that she accessed Tess'
file under the guise of heading up a "Sunshine Committee"?



I'll think about it. So far I don't see an astronomy significance. I
wonder if it connects with the political idea of "Sunshine Laws" as
requiring openness of public records.

GraceKel

Addicted Fan   Registered: Dec 1999   Posts: 862   Posted: 07-18-2000 06:34 PM

Nemo do you care to tackle the WINDMILLS any meaning if any do you
think?

Palomino

Dedicated Fan   Registered: Jun 2000   Posts: 306   Posted: 07-18-2000 06:56 PM

Wow! You guys got so far and I'm still trying to catch up.

The windmills.
1. They could be symbolic of the four square symbol, first seen at
the end of "The Balance".
2. It could be like a wheel. The cycle of life. Prehaps in
combination with the podsters.
3. It could be symbolic of their powers. What naturally exists is
turned by ingenuity(by the four square symbol), into power (to help
mankind?) to be used whenever needed, either as electricity or a
water source(again, symbolism of life-giving water).

4. Then again, it could be saying, "Love is in the air, and it's
going to hit the fan".
07-18-2000 07:27 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 LSS: Thank-you, I love these science fiction threads.

Unlike most of you, I do not like this episode. I find it taxing to
watch Max struggle with his identy and hide from his "mother". I
wish I could understand. When he saved Liz, he was ready to tell
her--(although the cell scraping Liz took help facilite the
conversation.) But when he saved his mom, he was in geniune fear. I
swear I saw a tear in his eyes when he watched himself heal the
pigeon. He trusts Liz, Maria and Alex and later Sheriff Valenti with
his secret. Why not his Mom? My heart aches for her whenever I watch
this episode. I get a taste for whatever Max feels from Jason Behr's
acting, but the answers I'm looking for are not in the writing.

Now, I have a different question. How did Max put out the fire????
Does fire have a molecular structure that he can alter. Did he make
a "connection" to it. Frankly, I think when he passed his hand over
it he absorbed the heat. Chemistry folks, is fire the result of a
chemical reaction or is fire the product of a chemical reaction, and
would this mean the Max may be able to control chemical reactions---
(well why not? they can alter molecular structures). I'm no science
bean so any thoughts would be great.

I find it ironic that Max is the one who doesn't understand the
concept of unconditional love. It is Max that won't trust his Mom.
It is Max that denies Iz the chance to tell Earth Mom the truth,
even when Iz begs. It's Max that won't listen to Liz. Meanwhile,
everyone else around Max understands unconditional love by example.
Liz feels responsible for Kyle's ankle and attempts to make up for
it with pie. Michael crafts the napkin holder for Maria and thus
communicates that it's not all about MM&I. Maria forgives Michael by
keeping the napkin holder. Iz explains to Max why she can't always
keep lying to Mom. Kyle forgives Liz for breaking up with him. But
Max doesn't understand, which is strange because he's the one has
gone out on the "limb".

Lastly, what saves this episode for me is Maria and Michael. Don't
you love it when she says, "Ok, you have to get massive doses of
therapy, like immediately."


Well-- that's what I get out of TH.

[Edited by Qfanny on 07-18-2000 at 07:47 PM]





07-18-2000 07:29 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
Wow!
4. Then again, it could be saying, "Love is in the air, and it's
going to hit the fan".


Snicker...Palomino, I almost lost it on that last
explanation...Thank you--it has been a long day!

LSS




07-18-2000 07:37 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 Well the ......really hit the fan in Destiny didn't it?
Ha!Ha!

Since we are looking at the Windmills-they show it in 4Square(my
least fav eppy) when Isabel is telling Max how she felt after her
run in with Tess, about something awakening......and they show it
behind them with one of the blades broken off or just missing?

I can find symbols but don't ask me to analyze them, come on all of
you with your great minds anyone?




07-18-2000 07:41 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 One more thing to add again about the Sebadoh in
Toyhouse, you can also see this Sebadoh in Riverdop eppy when Isabel
is talking to Deputy Owen about the necklace and how he grew up on
the Reservation-he is standing in front of this Sebadoh sign and it
is noticable. Hey maybe it is just a poster but........maybe theres
a clue somewhere I don't know.




07-18-2000 08:07 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 399 Qfanny:You asked how Max could have put out the fire with
his molecule manipulating powers. He could have kept the oxygen in
the air(roughly 20%) from the fire, effectively smothering it like a
fire extinguisher does with CO2.




07-18-2000 08:24 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 Palomino, I love it. All four of your points.

I put the question to the symbolism expert in the family (just got
back from a walk mulling this over). Her suggestions of possible
significance were: maybe a landmark; cyclic motion; and (this one I
like) extracting power from a source that is all around but normally
not visible. I would add that, especially in the arid West, water is
life.

So you already got almost all of that. I especially like the idea
that it will take the four of them (3 + Liz) in a balanced way to
carry out this life-restoring work.




07-18-2000 08:36 PM

tanchel

Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 45 Qfanny,

TH isn't my favorite either, and the M/M subplot was the best thing
about it for me too.

What I get from TH is how upset everyone seems to be with Max: his
mother because he's hiding secrets, Isabel because he's refusing to
tell, and Liz because he's being controlling. And good grief, if he
had even considered telling, Michael would have exploded. This
episode is pretty make-or-break in many ways; everybody is pushing
him to his limits and beyond. Wonderful acting from Jason, but it
drove me nuts.

Here's a question: Why is it that when Michael gets emotional, he
has better control of his powers, relatively speaking, and that use
*helps* protect them all, BUT when Max gets emotional, he uses his
power a bit too openly, and suddenly everybody is in more danger
than ever? Who really has the better "control" here? Max or Michael?


And, if we look at the three of them, perhaps Isabel has the best
control of all--she seems to have an equal degree of success
regardless the circumstances.




07-18-2000 08:45 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167
Tanchel,
Thank you for replying. I thought I was the only one that didn't
care this eppy. You have some wonderful questions about emotions and
powers. I have to agree with your assessment. Max seems to me to be
holding onto something lost. When he gets frustrated he gets sloppy
and then trys to make up for it in the aftermath by being overly
protective. Michael on the other hand, he seems be trying lose
something. So when he is emotional, he tends to do better (with his
powers) because he is allowing himself to lose control. Isabel walks
a lines in the middle.

I'll have to think about this some more though. Too tired right now,
but maybe this makes sense.

[Edited by Qfanny on 07-18-2000 at 08:52 PM]





07-18-2000 09:29 PM

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 130 quote:


Originally posted by BehrAll
Hi, I just wanted to comment on the windmill imagery (snip)
Water, of course, is the substance being controlled --(snip)
The fact that Max' models are dry and do not actually process
water yet suggests many things (snip)



I don't remember seeing the other windmills people have mentioned,
but the model in Max's bedroom was not the kind for moving water.
The motion of the relatively small metal blades is used to drive an
electrical generator. There are some on private farms in Eastern
Washington that get their power that way, and I believe some are
even used for public power generation in parts of Oregon and
California.




07-18-2000 09:53 PM

pixiedude

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 130 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
Qfanny:You asked how Max could have put out the fire with his
molecule manipulating powers. He could have kept the oxygen in the
air(roughly 20%) from the fire, effectively smothering it like a
fire extinguisher does with CO2.



I hadn't thought of that. I figured he must have changed the chem
composition of the oil so that it wouldn't oxidize (burn) (CO2 and
H2O don't burn because they already have oxygen bound up), maybe
even turning it into water.




07-18-2000 10:09 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by Qfanny

Michael on the other hand, he seems be trying lose something. So
when he is emotional, he tends to do better (with his powers)
because he is allowing himself to lose control.
[Edited by Qfanny on 07-18-2000 at 08:52 PM]




Qfanny:

But that doesn't hold true for Independence Day does it? His powers
are very poorly controlled because he is emotionally a wreak.
LSS




07-18-2000 10:23 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 quote:


Originally posted by BehrAll

...regarding the associations made between Isabel and the sun,
does anyone think it's at all meaningful that she accessed Tess'
file under the guise of heading up a "Sunshine Committee"?



OK, now I get it: (besides the opening-the-records idea already
mentioned)

Isabel, trying to overcome the office person's doubts, said "You can
never have too much sunshine." Ironic, since that's apparently what
the home world died of.

So this reference looks like another twofer.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-18-2000 at 10:29 PM]





07-18-2000 10:37 PM

HyperKitN

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 135 I wanted to point out that I think this episode let us
see a little more of who Isabel is. When Isabel and her mom are
talking in her room I noticed in one corner of the room one of those
clothes dummies they use to make clothes and on the other corner of
the room are drawings of women in clothes. We get a glimpse of what
she wants to do with here life. Something I think she hasn't really
said. A creative, sensitive side, that gets hidden behind all the
glitze(sp)and glamour.




07-18-2000 10:48 PM

amx

Addicted Fan

Registered: Mar 2000
Posts: 598 The discussion is, as always, fascinating. I donít have a
lot of time at present, so I am just casting some very brief
thoughts on windmills into the intellectual pot!

Windmills can be viewed on to levels, as the thing itself

The windmill is an attempt by people to harness the wind and turn it
to our use. But, we ultimately fail, since the wind goes where it
will and whilst it may fall in with our plans on occasion and power
the mill, we cannot rely on it absolutely. The theme of the futility
of trying to exercise control over things which you cannot hope to
ever master runs through Toy House, and all the characters for whom
control is an issue, have only the most noble of motives at heart,
Max particularly and Tilting at windmills (Don Q) ñ is almost the
definition of noble futility.
Max trying to control his feelings for Liz for her safety;
Working to keep their secret to protect not only himself but Michael
and Isabelle etc.

Ultimately, though, it comes down to emotion and emotional
investment ñ something we cannot control in ourselves, let alone
hope to control in others.

The windmill sail is also reminiscent of depictions in rock-art
particularly of the solar disc ñ lines radiating out from a central
origin. Solar discs have been interpreted as representing most
basically the sun, home/comfort/safety (they are used often in
rockshelter settings which afford protection from the elements)
power and its source, notions of divinity and the cosmos in general.
So, for example, Isabelle states explicitly that her earth-mother is
like the sun; her source, her comfort and protection.

Lastly, I just wanted to say ñ LSS ñ masterful summation on the
ìFrakesî thread you started. I am putting together something on the
mythology side of the issue which I will post there later today,
hopefully.

amx





07-18-2000 11:00 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 Max and unconditional love.... hmmmmm? He doesn't seem to
trust it at the beginning, but I think that he does give it a try by
asking his mother to trust him and not ask the questions that she so
desperately wants answers to. Diane so obviously loves her children,
and it really is hard to watch her struggle with getting Max to open
up. I really think that she is really trying to get closer to him...
to build a bridge between them. All parents want their children to
love and trust them enough to share their lives (well, all good
parents...grrr..Hank...hisss). Her question to him about her and
Philip not being enough really is heart breaking, because she does
love him enough to help him with whatever is bothering him. Ok, I
know this is not sci-fi stuff... but it is what sort of sticks in my
mind.

As for the ethics of power, someone made a very good comparison to
the idea of the Jedi force and the incorrect use of it. The
temptation to use power for selfishness, after all, only leads to
the dark side. (poor Michael, he will probably have the greatest
internal struggle with this, because he already sees himself as
being tainted ) I think it's interesting that they all seem to
instinctually know that they should only use their powers for good
and not evil . This is another big difference between the
tripodsters and Tess. Is it because of their human upbringing (this
could be argued against because of Michael's situation), or is it
because they already possess the inner wisdom and goodness? Is it an
inherent part of their personalities, of their former selves? Tess,
who was raised by Nasedo, obviously doesn't know the difference
yet... so it is either her nature to be manipulative, etc., or she
was "taught" to use her powers this way by her mentor.

[Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 07-18-2000 at 11:03 PM]





07-19-2000 12:04 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 603 Need to get back to work or sleep, but Qfanny, just
wanted to say how much I appreciated your ability to express
everything I felt about this ep. too. In fact, I wasn't sure I
wanted to see it again, but it was better the second time. Somehow I
was more resigned to the mother & son roles that Mom & Max had to
bear. Hmmm, a little like 12-year-old Jesus telling his frantic
parents that they should have known he would be about His Father's
business.




07-19-2000 04:11 AM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 quote:


Originally posted by LSS
quote:


Originally posted by Qfanny

Michael on the other hand, he seems be trying lose something. So
when he is emotional, he tends to do better (with his powers)
because he is allowing himself to lose control.
[Edited by Qfanny on 07-18-2000 at 08:52 PM]




Qfanny:

But that doesn't hold true for Independence Day does it? His
powers are very poorly controlled because he is emotionally a
wreak.
LSS



--Yep, you're right!

My only other thought on TH is the fact Max gets away speaking to
his Mom the one he does. If I had acted like that with my parents at
16, I would have been "discipled" in some corporal punishment way.
See you guys later.




07-19-2000 06:58 AM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 tanchel:

Sorry it took so long for me to get back to your excellent post:

quote:


Originally posted by tanchel
Okay, getting way sci-fi/metaphysical now, and bringing in some
Star Wars (forgive me). In the novels detailing that universe
post-Return of the Jedi, one of the biggest issues is the ethical
use of the Force. There are, most of the time, very specific rules
about what is or is not acceptable, with of course the threat of
the 'dark side' overhanging everything. For example, Jedi aren't
not supposed use their abilities in the same manner Tess does,
even though they might in desperate situations. But it leaves a
tainted feeling somehow.

The question of responsibility for others is also a big one. Luke
goes through a period where he attempts to 'save' everyone, even
from the consequences of their own actions. It leads him to
greater and greater uses of his power, all with the assumption
that he knows best. Finally, there's a moment when he realizes
that while his power does obligate him to protect the innocent
from evil, the innocent do have the right to make their own
decisions and accept the consequences of them, even if those
decisions are phenomenally stupid.

Very nice comparison with Star Wars/the Force. A while back on
another of the SF threads both Elliot and Rosta talked about the
"dark" side of our podsters' powers, and how, if anyone might be
tempted to "go over," it would be Michael (at that time he and Max
were fighting a lot).

You know, only Michael has used his power to harm others. And I
don't mean just killing. Remember when those guys beat up Max?
Later--the itching...Kyle's fused lock? Then there was Michael and
Hank...then Michael and Pierce. And in South 285 when Michael threw
Kyle across the room? Gosh -- come to think of it, there have been
quite a few times.

It looks like Michael's power template was the warrior model. How do
you talk about a warrior's ethical use of his weapons? But Michael
heals River Dog too. That being the case, I wonder if Max (the
healer) has some warrior skills we haven't seen yet?

LSS





07-19-2000 07:50 AM

Dawn

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 951 In regards to specific warrior skills as demonstrated by
Micheal,I dont think we have seen Max's yet. Does he have some kind
of super human strength though? I can think of two instances; when
he hit the bathroom stall door in LN knocking it in, and when he
punched the FBI agent in Destiny and sent him flying that seemed not
"normal".Also I never understood, was he trying to kill Pierce in
the WR in a Nasedo like fashion? We know he has some warrior
instincts and doesnt like his leadership role contradicted from when
he punched Michael for disobeying a direct order regarding the orbs
in Crazy.
I think Max does have an unconditional love for Liz and the others,
but maybe he has trouble believing in the concept subconsciously
because he didnt have it in his past life marriage.(sorry... lol
dreamgirl talking)




07-19-2000 07:58 AM

tanchel

Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 45 Hmmm, hadn't thought about Michael's "dark side"
tendencies.... Good point, LSS.

Okay, continuing to use the Star Wars novels as a guide here,
Michael reminds me of the younger Solo twins as they tried to
understand the responsibilities inherent in their powers. They
occasionally did tricks in the same vein as Michael's locker
melting, et al. All it got them was a severe frown from Uncle Luke
and big lecture, and it usually backfired in other ways as well. I
will say this: *nothing* Michael has done, even killing in
self-defense (though it should be avoided if at all possible), is as
abhorent to the 'Force' as Tess's mental manipulation.

Michael's tricks gave him brief emotional satisfaction, but it
continued to create friction between him and Max. By the end of the
season, I don't think Michael was as petty in his use of his gifts,
or maybe it's just that when the FBI is chasing you, melting lockers
isn't funny anymore.

I would think that each of the quartet has certain gifts that are
more inherent than the others, but wouldn't it be bad planning to
give any one of them a monopoly on a particular gift? Michael has
warrior talents, but what if (heaven forfend)something happened to
him? That leaves the others helpless? I would hope that isn't the
case. So I would think that Max and the others are share common
abilities, and it's their personalities that brings specific ones to
the front.




07-19-2000 08:13 AM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 quote:


Originally posted by amx

The windmill sail is also reminiscent of depictions in rock-art
particularly of the solar disc ñ lines radiating out from a
central origin....



Like the State-of-New-Mexico sun symbol at the sheriff's (fourfold),
and the three-armed symbol at the museum. (Mentioned on the 4 vs. 3
list on the previous thread.) These were prominent in The Convention
and seemed to invite notice and comparison, especially because of
their similar placement on their respective buildings.

4 is on the sheriff's building. (Protection; keeping the peace?)

3 is on the museum. (Disaster? i.e. the crash -- the museum wouldn't
exist otherwise.) The symbol is either that of the Civil Defense
organization (for handling disasters) or for warning of danger from
radioactivity, I can't tell which.

Either way, the comparison seems to indicate hope for peace with 4,
danger or disaster with only 3. GraceKel, I need to look at that
distorted or damaged windmill image you found in conjunction with
Tess. That sounds highly significant.





07-19-2000 12:45 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by tanchel
I will say this: *nothing* Michael has done, even killing in
self-defense (though it should be avoided if at all possible), is
as abhorent to the 'Force' as Tess's mental manipulation.

....

I would think that each of the quartet has certain gifts that are
more inherent than the others, but wouldn't it be bad planning to
give any one of them a monopoly on a particular gift? Michael has
warrior talents, but what if (heaven forfend)something happened to
him? That leaves the others helpless?



Without getting into Tess bashing and staying on the topic of
"power" (its use and abuse)...I agree with your statements about
Tess's use of image implantation. In the WR it may be justified (as
a diversionary tactic), but used on Max to persuade him to accept
her as his destiny is really problematic. If the writers WANTED to
turn segments of the audience OFF of Tess, they couldn't have chosen
a better way to do it.

As for your later point concerning "what if" something had happened
to Michael. That is a very good point. The problem is, we simply
don't know why these specific powers have been manifest. If--as Tess
indicated in Destiny--the powers are simply the result of what
happens when one focuses one's energy, then perhaps it is a matter
of choice. Perhaps each podster chooses to focus their energy in
different ways? IF that is the case then maybe the powers themselves
are clues to the inner persona of the user. Actually, I like that
idea ...but I'm not sure that the writers intend it.

LSS




07-19-2000 01:41 PM

tanchel

Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 45 Let's run with the 'powers as a clue about the inner
person' idea for a minute here (heck, when are writers entirely sure
of what they intend anyway?).

So the gift is somehow a manifestation of the person. Max's healing
Liz was an automatic, instinctive response to protect her, and he
certainly feels protective and responsible for everyone around him.

Michael's powers (early in the season) tend to alienate people since
he can't control them. Maria certainly wasn't thrilled about her car
battery blowing up. And melting Kyle's locker alienated him from Max
(and if Kyle had known the source of the problem, he would have been
even less happy). And stopping the FBI from getting to Max and Liz
also literally stopped anyone from getting too close. He wants to
keep people *away* emotionally and physically, and I can see how his
powers have helped him do that.

Isabel uses her powers in a manner that isn't threatening, like
coloring her lipsticks or playing a CD. They don't lead to any fear
of discovery, and Isabel was quite happy with her life in Roswell as
she stated early on. Even her dreamwalking doesn't have an obvious
residue, since the dreamer isn't aware of her presence. Max was the
only exception to that.

Since we don't know enough about Tess at this point, we can't be
sure that her gift is a reflection of her inner self. You are right:
the writers did a nice job of pushing people's buttons there.

A bigger question is: will their powers shift as the characters
develop and grow emotionally? As Isabel became resigned to the
'loss' of her normal life, her power shifted from the dream world to
the waking one (e.g. Pierce). When Michael had to choose between
saving Max and Liz and exposing himself to Valenti, he chose
exposure and had much better control as a result. Maybe as Tess
becomes 'humanized', she'll develop boundaries in the use of her
power.

tanchel




07-19-2000 01:47 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 It is almost as if the use of their powers reflects their
role/personality.
Max= the leader/healer
Michael=warrior/energy blasts (and he can heal as well... )
Isabel= the nurturer /the one who sees into their hearts/minds
Tess= the unknown quantity as yet, but she is a mind manipulator




07-19-2000 02:34 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 tanchal:

I think that Tess can be humanized, after all, she is as much a
victim of destiny as they all are. (But who would complain if they
got Max???? Opps...wrong thread!)

The question would be the old nature vs. nurture one again--is Tess
the way she is because of Nesedo or because she is a deceiver?
Again--I raise this not to bash the character, but to simply say
that if powers are reflective of choices...then her use of power has
problematice elements (even if it is done in the name of the greater
good of "destiny").

LSS




07-19-2000 03:11 PM

tanchel

Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 45 I weigh in on the nurture side. I tend to think that
Tess's use of her power directly relates to her perception of
humans. And that perception came from Nacedo's upbringing, which
wasn't exactly warm and fuzzy. And in one of the edited scripts,
there was a section left out of an exchange between her and Nacedo.
It basically details that she's spent her life ONLY with him, and we
all know how he feels about humans. So I believe as she spends more
time among the others, she will be less manipulative.

I figure Nacedo taught her a great deal about her gifts but didn't
provide a moral framework in which to use them. Max, et al,
certainly have developed guidelines for themselves, and if Tess
hopes to be accepted by that group, she'll have to follow the same
rules.

I think there's some support for this idea in the way Michael has
changed as he spent more time interacting with caring humans. Hank's
upbringing left a distinct anti-social mark and a prejudice against
both parental figures and adults of any kind. That's shifted by
Destiny, when he realizes that not only does he have teenage human
friends to rely upon, but also has at least two adults (Phillip
Evans and Sheriff Valenti) to trust. Hopefully Tess comes to feel
the same way.

Tanchel




07-19-2000 03:28 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 It will also be interesting to see the the Fall story
arc if there will be new powers emerging. Michael might yet learn
how to "scan" for instance. And somehow they are going to have to
learn how to recognize the "evil within" the enemy.

Two more months---sigh.

LSS




07-19-2000 04:05 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 Nemo you can find the Windmill with broken blade on it
behind them when Isabel talks to Max about losing time, something
awakening, in the Four Square Episode.




07-19-2000 04:10 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 Opps! sorry--double post




07-19-2000 04:22 PM

NiamhF

Level 1

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 25 Hi there,

In reference to the four's powers. I think that perhaps they are
extentions of whatever personailites they had on their home planet.
I already posted these ideas in a thread called "the 'essences' of
M/M/I/T." I don't want to clutter the board by posting it here too
but check it out if you are interested.

NiamhF




07-19-2000 04:22 PM

Philly

Fan

Registered: Apr 2000
Posts: 9 I enjoy reading this thread-Thanks LSS and everyone,and I
am delurking to weigh in on this latest issue.I believe that Tess
and her powers are a product of both her nuturing and her nature.She
was raised by Nasedo obviously to relate to her alien nature and
without much other guidance.However she wasnt raised in a vacumm or
a cave.(or was she?)She went to school among humans,must have
watched TV(even reruns of the Brady Bunch would do)and surely read
some of the classic works of fiction to get all those good
grades.She has to know the basic frameworks of civilization and the
concept of human compassion, but she chooses not to abide by these
rules.
I can see where she is totally focused on the indoctrinated idea
that Max is her Destiny.I can even accept,though not condone, her
use of her mind control powers to introduce herself in what she felt
was an appropriately tintallating manner.However when confronted
with basic truths it seems like she had no hesitation or reservation
about lying and manipulating situations.Liz poignantly told her she
was in love with Max and Tess answered falsely that it wouldnt
happen again.She also misrepresented their kiss when Max confronted
her,not hesitating to make a liar and cheat out of her "beloved" in
front of Liz.
The writers can redeem her character obviously but the nature and
use of her powers and her actions seem to indicate a leaning to the
dark side.I also find it interesting that she has focused a lot of
her attention on Michael, who know due to the use of his powers
believes himself to be "bad".





07-19-2000 05:17 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 quote:


Originally posted by tanchel

Michael's powers (early in the season) tend to alienate people
since he can't control them.
tanchel



Excellent pun! LOL

I've been typing and typing trying to come up with something to say
about the Pod Squad's powers. In retrospect, the whole powers thing
seems almost mystic and supernatural. I wish the writers would clear
this issue up before we have another "witch" show were it's all
about the powers.

In the pilot, Max admits to Liz that they have powers.
a) the ability to connect with others.
b) manipulate molecular structures
and
c)

Max doesn't get to finish. What is C???

I'm afraid to ask this one. Would the ability to manipulate
molecular scructures allow the four to scramble and unscramble
themselves and move across space (a la teleportation).




07-19-2000 05:53 PM

Jamethiel

Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 14 quote:


Originally posted by tanchel
Let's run with the 'powers as a clue about the inner person' idea
for a minute here (heck, when are writers entirely sure of what
they intend anyway?).

So the gift is somehow a manifestation of the person. Max's
healing Liz was an automatic, instinctive response to protect her,
and he certainly feels protective and responsible for everyone
around him.

Michael's powers (early in the season) tend to alienate people
since he can't control them. Maria certainly wasn't thrilled about
her car battery blowing up. And melting Kyle's locker alienated
him from Max (and if Kyle had known the source of the problem, he
would have been even less happy). And stopping the FBI from
getting to Max and Liz also literally stopped anyone from getting
too close. He wants to keep people *away* emotionally and
physically, and I can see how his powers have helped him do that.

Isabel uses her powers in a manner that isn't threatening, like
coloring her lipsticks or playing a CD. They don't lead to any
fear of discovery, and Isabel was quite happy with her life in
Roswell as she stated early on. Even her dreamwalking doesn't have
an obvious residue, since the dreamer isn't aware of her presence.
Max was the only exception to that.

Since we don't know enough about Tess at this point, we can't be
sure that her gift is a reflection of her inner self. You are
right: the writers did a nice job of pushing people's buttons
there.

A bigger question is: will their powers shift as the characters
develop and grow emotionally? As Isabel became resigned to the
'loss' of her normal life, her power shifted from the dream world
to the waking one (e.g. Pierce). When Michael had to choose
between saving Max and Liz and exposing himself to Valenti, he
chose exposure and had much better control as a result. Maybe as
Tess becomes 'humanized', she'll develop boundaries in the use of
her power.

tanchel



Tanchel, I burst out laughing at your dig at the writers and their
intentions. Of course, the fans can always fill in the intent as
needed.

I thought your analysis of the podsters powers was right on the
mark. I only have a couple of side notes.

Isabel's use of the powers seems more "selfish" and
"self-interested" than the others. The only time I can think of her
doing something for strictly altruistic purposes is when she helped
Maria waitress in the Crashdown (and that was your basic "heat &
serve). Even Michael has chosen to use his powers where at least he
thought he was doing the right thing (rashes, fused lockers,
throwing people around) that might make Michael look bad. Isabel, on
the other hand, has dreamwalked for information to protect herself
or to rescue Max (and having Max back would increase the odds of
Isabel's survival).

Max uses his powers so carefully (control!) that unless we count his
demonstrations in the Pilot of his ability to manipulate clay, he
doesn't even use them recreationally! I'm not saying that Isabel
wasn't putting herself in danger to save Max, just that she hasn't
demonstrated the kind of character willing to take risks to herself
just help others.




07-19-2000 06:27 PM

tanchel

Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 45 Well, I would agree that Isabel's use of her power has
been occasionally self-centered, but that self-centeredness is a
major part of her public persona. Once you get past that, I think
Isabel has always chosen to use her powers in way that don't affect
other people--CDs, maybe a quick color change for some
lipstick--because it doesn't draw attention to her.

Ice Queen means nobody gets too close, and if you don't use your
powers on a grand scale (ala dissolving a bullet in the middle of a
diner), then your comfortable existence isn't threatened. Everyone's
attention has been on Max--Isabel has never done anything that would
remotely suggest she is anything but a normal 16yr old girl. And
that's what she desperately wants to be.

Now, admittedly she used her dreamwalking abilities to get info on
Alex, and then used it to try and manipulate him, but she was truly
chagrined when he called her on it. He knew her interest in him
wasn't innocent, even if he didn't know how she got info. And I'm
going to get lynched now--but just because she wasn't planting
images in his head doesn't mean that she wasn't crossing the same
kind of boundaries that Tess has (though on a much smaller scale).
Manipulation is manipulation...

That being said, we've never seen her do that again. Once she saw
how hurt Alex was, she felt bad whereas Tess truly doesn't seem to
understand why anybody is mad at her mental smoke-and-mirrors.
Isabel is a much more generous person by the end of the season than
when first introduced, and I think her use of her powers will start
to reflect that. I mean, hey, at least she stopped color-coding her
lipsticks and started making new polish colors for Liz




07-19-2000 07:02 PM

tanchel

Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 45 Responding to other stuff and trying not to have the
world's longest post....

Qfanny, in the Roswell High books, teleportation is a gift they
have, so yes, that molecular manipulation thing carries over. I have
to say, though, my willingness to suspend disbelief is going to be
seriously strained if we start seeing Michael popping in and out
like Q.

NiamhF: the essences thread is a great one, and it does combine
tidily with this one. If their powers are an extension of their
personalities back on the home planet, it makes a nice explanation
for Max and Michael's differing abilities and motivations.
Unfortunately, the writers really haven't given us enough background
on Isabel and Tess, so we can't 'match' the old and new as easily as
we can the guys. Like you, I hope we get more next season...




07-19-2000 10:05 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 229 While on the "We are the BOBers" thread I noticed a
picture of Kyle's convertable with a windmill in the background
which looks suspiciously like the one in Max's room. I'm not sure
which episode it is, possibly The Morning After or 285S? I haven't
had a chance to find it so I don't know the significance. Thought
I'd alert all of you to this.




07-19-2000 10:57 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 603 Regarding Isabel's motives for dreamwalking Max in the
White Room: Although fear of 'who will be next?' would be a partial
motivation, I got the impression she did it out of genuine concern
for Max. Of course, concern for those whose lives are inextricably
entwined with our own is also selfish to some degree.

And, less seriously:
Perhaps those of you chasing after windmills should call yourselves
the DonQuioxtes.




07-20-2000 06:09 AM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 Shapeshifter:

I agree that by the time we reach WR, Izzy really has changed
(character-wise). I find no reason to doubt that she does what she
does out of her love for her brother. Actually--when it comes to Max
and Michael, Izzy has always shown a softer side. It is only to the
humans that she put on earlier her "ice" persona.

The only times we've seen her use her powers for some "human" good
is:

1) cleaning Liz (spilled coffee) in 285 south)
2) helping out in the cafe (leaving normal)
3) changing the nail polish to match Liz's shoes.

Now that I think of it, it's always Liz she helps isn't it?
(Aalthough the cafe tech. was Maria--Izzy WAS in the cafe to help
Liz).

LSS




07-20-2000 07:49 AM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 quote:


Originally posted by LSS

Now that I think of it, it's always Liz she helps isn't it?

Interesting. It was also Liz both times that Isabel took the
initiative to open up to the the humans in a crisis:
1) alley scene in the pilot "What's your idea?"
2) motel scene in 285 S. "What do you want to know?"

[Edited by Nemo on 07-20-2000 at 07:52 AM]





07-20-2000 08:23 AM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
quote:


Originally posted by LSS

Now that I think of it, it's always Liz she helps isn't it?

Interesting. It was also Liz both times that Isabel took the
initiative to open up to the the humans in a crisis:
1) alley scene in the pilot "What's your idea?"
2) motel scene in 285 S. "What do you want to know?"

[Edited by Nemo on 07-20-2000 at 07:52 AM]




Do you think this is because that Isabel herself senses Liz's
"specialness", or is it because this is the girl that her beloved
brother loves? Or, (one more thought) is it because Isabel wants
someone female to open up to, a real girl friend who will know the
most crucial thing about her existence?



07-20-2000 09:26 AM

tanchel

Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 45 I think Isabel really wants a girlfriend to open up to.
Max and Michael have each other, even if the relationship is
sometimes strained. But Isabel doesn't even have her mother, someone
who is clearly very important in her life. And her popular clique
friends don't know her either. So Liz fills a void for her.

But she doesn't fill it completely. When Tess was introduced, Isabel
was thrilled to have a friend outside the group for a change,
someone with whom she could just relax and not constantly be dealing
with life and death issues. Obviously that didn't last! And I don't
think Isabel trusts Tess very much anymore.

Now, this is interesting to me. Isabel gives in to Liz in the scenes
mentioned above, and those are scenes in which the guys are oddly
impotent when faced with the women's determination. Max and Michael
can be standing there, certain everybody is going to comply ("Move
your car" or "You aren't going to the reservation.") But when Liz is
determined and Isabel responds, the guys are left with jaws dropped.





07-20-2000 10:15 AM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 About the connection between Isabel and Liz in the
Destiny ep when they enter the UFO MUSEUM Isabel and Liz are holding
hands running up towards the stairs, the camera pans downward and
shows almost a connectiveness of their shadows, does this mean
anything, I don't really know, just something I noticed quite awhile
back, does it mean anything, not sure.




07-20-2000 11:50 AM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 These recent observations add to my growing conviction
(formed on other grounds) that the original 4th podster was done
away with, and that Liz is now the authentic successor to that role.
I think this is indicated already in the pilot, and confirmed in
Destiny. When the orbs seem to be saying "good, you're all here, now
we can play back the message from Mom," I think they are responding
to the presence of Liz, not Tess, and the orbs are satisfied that
Liz has the fourth "essence" they are looking for.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-20-2000 at 11:55 AM]





07-20-2000 01:31 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 603 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
These recent observations add to my growing conviction (formed on
other grounds) that the original 4th podster was done away with,
and that Liz is now the authentic successor to that role. I think
this is indicated already in the pilot, and confirmed in Destiny.
When the orbs seem to be saying "good, you're all here, now we can
play back the message from Mom," I think they are responding to
the presence of Liz, not Tess, and the orbs are satisfied that Liz
has the fourth "essence" they are looking for.

...especially since it was the Max & Liz hanky panky that led to the
orbs' discovery. While teenage biological drives are probably more
reliable than other alarm clock devices, it also seems to indicate
an at least latent sense of humor among the extra-terrestrials.




07-20-2000 08:43 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
These recent observations add to my growing conviction (formed on
other grounds) that the original 4th podster was done away with,
and that Liz is now the authentic successor to that role. I think
this is indicated already in the pilot, and confirmed in Destiny.
When the orbs seem to be saying "good, you're all here, now we can
play back the message from Mom," I think they are responding to
the presence of Liz, not Tess, and the orbs are satisfied that Liz
has the fourth "essence" they are looking for.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-20-2000 at 11:55 AM]




Which kind of goes back to the question of why is the home team
relying on these four to save their world? If the mommagram is for
real (shudder), then the fact that they are relying on the fearsome
foursome is very interesting. There is something special about the
four when their essences are together. They each lend a certain
personality strength to the mix.
(let us, however, say a silent prayer to TPTB that this is a
Tessagram )




07-21-2000 07:07 AM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 You know, I've always thought that the basic message of
the mommagram was real. It just seems too "cheap" a story element to
throw out there in the last minutes of the first season if it was a
fake. I'm not ruling out that it might have been doctored though. Or
that we don't understand who all the personages mentioned really
are.

I'm still musing over "It has begun" which ironically "ends" the
first season.

LSS




07-21-2000 11:20 AM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by BehrAll
Oh, and since I'm blathering on anyway, regarding the associations
made between Isabel and the sun, does anyone think it's at all
meaningful that she accessed Tess' file under the guise of heading
up a "Sunshine Committee"?



Not really. The name "Welcome Wagon" is probably copyrighted;
certainly it's already in use by someone else. Since she was trying
to play Little Miss Sunshine, "Sunshine Committee" seems reasonable.



07-21-2000 11:43 AM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by LSS
Michael on the other hand, he seems be trying lose something. So
when he is emotional, he tends to do better (with his powers)
because he is allowing himself to lose control.
Originally posted by Qfanny
But that doesn't hold true for Independence Day does it? His
powers are very poorly controlled because he is emotionally a
wreak.
LSS



But Michael hadn't done the "hand-cannon" thing yet, as far as we
know. There's little control because there's no experience. Also,
he's fighting with himself about whether to use it at all, and how
much: shall he kill his foster father? The implications behind all
three possibilities (nothing, wound, or kill) take some thought.


07-21-2000 12:22 PM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
These recent observations add to my growing conviction (formed on
other grounds) that the original 4th podster was done away with,
and that Liz is now the authentic successor to that role. I think
this is indicated already in the pilot, and confirmed in Destiny.
When the orbs seem to be saying "good, you're all here, now we can
play back the message from Mom," I think they are responding to
the presence of Liz, not Tess, and the orbs are satisfied that Liz
has the fourth "essence" they are looking for.

Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
Which kind of goes back to the question of why is the home team
relying on these four to save their world? If the mommagram is for
real (shudder), then the fact that they are relying on the
fearsome foursome is very interesting. There is something special
about the four when their essences are together. They each lend a
certain personality strength to the mix.
(let us, however, say a silent prayer to TPTB that this is a
Tessagram )



Personally, I think that the orbs are universal remote controls:
they started the tape with the mom-o-gram, and set off the beacon.
That being said, they might also set off other alien devices (as
needed); and that either one might be used to run the tape to show
another person what's up. M & I's parents, for example, and Sheriff
Valenti surely has need-to-know! If they did this w/o Tesssss
present, it would be a verification of the actual message. (Or not.
)

As to the strategy of the Home Team: they may want the Pod Squad,
and any local help they can get, to divert the Enemy's resources
away from the Home Planet. The Home Team could then overthrow the
Enemy for themselves. If the Pod Squad is a diversion, it gives them
leverage: they don't have to defeat the Enemy, just distract them.
This makes the Pod Squad's task much easier, a good thing w/r/t the
plot progression.




07-21-2000 12:33 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 quote:


Originally posted by Reggie


Personally, I think that the orbs are universal remote controls:
they started the tape with the mom-o-gram, and set off the beacon.
That being said, they might also set off other alien devices (as
needed); and that either one might be used to run the tape to show
another person what's up. M & I's parents, for example, and
Sheriff Valenti surely has need-to-know! If they did this w/o
Tesssss present, it would be a verification of the actual message.
(Or not. )

As to the strategy of the Home Team: they may want the Pod Squad,
and any local help they can get, to divert the Enemy's resources
away from the Home Planet. The Home Team could then overthrow the
Enemy for themselves. If the Pod Squad is a diversion, it gives
them leverage: they don't have to defeat the Enemy, just distract
them. This makes the Pod Squad's task much easier, a good thing
w/r/t the plot progression.



If they are being used as diversion, wouldn't logic dictate that the
home team would want the evil ones to know about the plan (without
the diversion part, of course )? What good is a diversion if you
don't know it's there? Perhaps that was part of the function of the
orbs... to clue in the bad guys as to where the podlings were, in a
general sort of way. But I would hope, if this were the case, that
someone would clue to podsters in on the big picture. How
unimaginably cruel to find out that you were merely a pawn in the
game when you perceived your role as so much more.




07-21-2000 12:46 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 Speaking of pawns: When the sheriff gave Diane Evans the
"Pamphlet of Undeception," didn't the end of the chair post behind
him look like a chess pawn?




07-21-2000 12:55 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 In the field house, the windows behind the home-team goal
were dome-shaped on top, like Atherton's house, which seemed to
symbolize Earth. So maybe this game symbolizes a contest for Earth?
I wonder whether we will see any of "good guys" sidelined on account
of Liz, or an instance of Maria mistakenly cheering a "bad guy"?




07-21-2000 01:29 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 The idea of a diversion fits with Michael's complaints
about being used as a pawn, and could be symbolized by that maneuver
of the two cars (the one that Maria was late for) for throwing off
surveillance. But under altered circumstances (the red giant?), a
diversion might become the main event?

Another problem familiar to humans, but with exceptional intensity
here: not knowing how much is really at stake, and how much things
depend on just a few people, or whether there are others.





07-21-2000 02:21 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 399 Originally posted by Nemo:

These recent observations add to my growing conviction (formed on
other grounds) that the original 4th podster was done away with, and
that Liz is now the authentic successor to that role.

Liz is definately special, but.....

By this do you mean that Liz is an alien?(She does get sick, has
normal cells, etc. The only "powers" we have seen is her recent
ability to get "flashes", which is apparently because bonding to Max
has "taught" her mind how to read or tune into an alien's - so far
just Max and Harding.)If this is true, then why has Harding not
gotten the message? And why has Tess not been "aborted"?




07-21-2000 02:36 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 399 Sorry, I almost forgot.

The Bad Alien Types know what signal to look for, on what planet,
and what it means. This means that one or more of the good guys
(either here or on the homeworld) have told them about the plan.
This could fit in with the podsquad being a diversion, or one or
more of the shapeshifters being a double agent.




07-21-2000 04:05 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
[BThe Bad Alien Types know what signal to look for, on what
planet, and what it means. This means that one or more of the good
guys (either here or on the homeworld) have told them about the
plan. This could fit in with the podsquad being a diversion, or
one or more of the shapeshifters being a double agent.



Or, it could mean that the "bad aliens" were well aware that a ship
was sent to earth, but somehow lost track of it after it entered
earth's atmosphere. Of course this would imply either: 1) the bad
aliens hung around for 11 yrs before the orb was activated, or 2)
earth was already occupied by "visitors". The question remains,
however, why "earth"?

BTW--I am not adverse to having a alien double agent. In fact, now
that we have a thriving alien population on earth, it is hard to
imagine that various areas of earth society have not already been
infilitrated and compromised (sigh--those first ten eppys are going
to look more and more like a trip down memory lane).

I've posted this before, but a summary of my list of suspicious plot
elements to date would look something like this:

1) TWO species of shapeshifting aliens (bad & good)? Give me a
break! Not unless they come from the same parent DNA stock a while
back the evolutionary tree! Shapeshifting is just not that common in
the world of SF. I mean, yes, we have shapeshifters. But I cannot
think (off the top of my head) of one novel that employs TWO
different species of shapeshifters in the same storyline (correct me
if I'm wrong here SF folk). Of course that doesn't mean they can't
do it, but it would be unusual.

2) I do not understand WHY Nesedo has been so stingy with
information. It simply does not make sense to allow (especially now)
our podsters to run around without data. Knowledge is
power--ignorance is weakness (I can understand before this that
ignorance might have been protection...but not anymore).

3) In TLV Tess just acts downright suspicious. Our writers have
given us a lot of reasons NOT to like her. People who are uneasy
with Tess are not just reacting out of a pro-Liz bias. There really
IS something about her. But just what is anyone's guess (and I know
there are plenty of guesses out there on this one).

4) The elusive 4th alien--if still alive--is a prime suspect for
that double agent. IF it is still alive...again we just don't know.

I'm not sure if our podsters are a diversion or simply leaders whose
very presence would signal fierce loyality and evoke resistance. If
the latter then all they would have to do is simply survive and make
it back home.

You know, I keep coming back to those powers--what if the advanced
human template contains the key to the bad alien's demise? That
makes sense. And maybe the power is significant enough so that a few
can wield it successfully.

What if...what if...what if...

Two more months...two more LONG months.

LSS





07-21-2000 04:50 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 399 LSSI agree. There are alot of bad plots floating around
out there, and alot of poor writers running around with butterfly
nets.

Your #1 about there being two shapeshifting species - YES, this
would be an incredible coinsidence! I hope they don't go there.

If there was one shapeshifting species, but because of a civil
war/coup-due-to-assasination, a small portion of the planet enslaves
the majority of the population, it would explain in a credible
manner how there could be two factions of the SAME species.


Mommy said "You will know them only by the evil within".

If she meant "You will only know them from us good shapeshifters
..." then the Bad Alien Types can be shapeshifters too. The problem
is, most of the population of Earth is human, with only a handful of
S.S.ers (especially on the Max side). I think that would make them
pretty easy to tell apart from the general population of Earth, just
not from the "good" guys, because they will all be able to
impersonate each other.

If she meant "You will only know them from the native population..."
then the B.A.T.s are using human bodies, or are humans(future or
transplanted?).



07-21-2000 05:20 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 229 quote:


Originally posted by LSS
quote:


1) TWO species of shapeshifting aliens (bad & good)? Give me a
break! Not unless they come from the same parent DNA stock a while
back the evolutionary tree! Shapeshifting is just not that common
in the world of SF. I mean, yes, we have shapeshifters. But I
cannot think (off the top of my head) of one novel that employs
TWO different species of shapeshifters in the same storyline
(correct me if I'm wrong here SF folk). Of course that doesn't
mean they can't do it, but it would be unusual.



What if...the two species of shapeshifting aliens did come from the
same parent DNA stock, but one species concentrated their energy in
one direction while the other concentrated in another direction.
This could lead to a natural bias against each other, kind of like
the biases we see in human society based on different skin color, or
ethnic backgrounds. The Dr. Seuss story "The Sneeches" comes to mind
as a good example of this. This could account for the differing
shapeshifting styles of Harding and Tictac. Not only is their styles
different, but the energy used generates a particular color,
Harding-red/gold and Tictac (blue). You could almost call them hot
and cold shifting Palomino did a good sum-up comparing the
differences of these two. Lighting seems to play a key role in
identifying many of the characters on this show.

One thing I noticed that also used the energy colors is the healing
stones. When Michael was healed, the stones glowed blue, but when
Harding was brought back they glowed red/gold. Could this be an
indication as to which side each of these groups represent in the
conflict on their planet?

quote:


2) I do not understand WHY Nesedo has been so stingy with
information. It simply does not make sense to allow (especially
now) our podsters to run around without data. Knowledge is
power--ignorance is weakness (I can understand before this that
ignorance might have been protection...but not anymore).



He's not on their side, but using them to dispose of the enemy. See
my explanation below, #4.

quote:


3) In TLV Tess just acts downright suspicious. Our writers have
given us a lot of reasons NOT to like her. People who are uneasy
with Tess are not just reacting out of a pro-Liz bias. There
really IS something about her. But just what is anyone's guess
(and I know there are plenty of guesses out there on this one).



I think the manipulation aspect really bothers people, NOBODY likes
to be manipulated! I'll be interested in seeing just where the
little Tesstress stands!

quote:


4) The elusive 4th alien--if still alive--is a prime suspect for
that double agent. IF it is still alive...again we just don't
know.



I think the 4th alien is Liz, but with a twist, she was originally
one of the hot aliens, possibly married to Max to end a conflict on
their home world. I'm basing this off of the lighting used for Liz
vs lighting used for Max, Max is often highlighted in a blue light,
while Liz is highlighted in a red/gold light. There are also other
clues strewn throughout the episodes that point in this direction. I
don't think, however that she is a double agent.

As to the marriage, I think the fanatics on both sides objected to
this arrangement and so they were assassinated. THATS why their
'rebirth' had to be kept secret. Maybe their mission isn't to fight
on one side, but to defeat the fanatics on both sides and bring
about the integration of the two sides.


quote:


You know, I keep coming back to those powers--what if the advanced
human template contains the key to the bad alien's demise? That
makes sense. And maybe the power is significant enough so that a
few can wield it successfully.



Maybe the podsters skills and interests are an indication of how
they tap into their human powers, when you combine all of these
aspects you have a pretty powerful weapon: identification (Liz),
interrigation (Isabel), defense (Michael), subterfuge/diversion
(Tess) and Leadership (Max). Max's healing abilities are also vital
in case any harm should befall them during their mission.

Somebody else mentioned Liz's presence during the use of the orbs.
One thing that should be pointed out was that neither Max or Liz
were touching the orb when it first activated. I think it was a
combination of their focused energy and their presences that set it
off. That's also why they activated in the cave.

Anyway, that's my two sense worth.





07-21-2000 06:38 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 Well Rocklowery I think its a great theory, this would
explain why Tess says "you knew me from b4 and we're the SAME", and
Max says about Liz, "Liz won't tell anyone, she's different" and at
the end of the PILOT "we're just DIFFERENT!"

I have also noticed the use of color but I was noticing more RED and
Green only recently have I noticed the BLue(could this be the
Neutral) and the reds and greens are the fanatics on both sides?

Another thing I noticed, in Max to the Max when Liz is telling
EVIL-Max-Harding, "but you don't understand that do you, you don't
care about anyone" and he smiles this guy walks by with this black I
don't know if it is a baloon or what but it looks in the shape of a
hammer---in the same episode when Liz comes out hysterical, "they
ve got Max" when the camera finally pans to Tess this same black
image (hammer? balloon?) is shown? I don't know if this means
something or not just a mention.




07-21-2000 06:38 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 I find it interesting how the science fiction threads
eventually also lead to the altered Liz theory. I know that that
this theory is very popular and frankly, IMO, very plausible. Yet
the fact remains we simply do not have any solid evidence of this.
The flashes Liz got when kissing Max in SH was the result of the
physical and emotional connection between the two. If Liz is
"altered" then when they kissed for the first time, wouldn't she
have started seeing "flashes" then at the end of HW? Max and Liz had
tried to kiss 2x before and they were "ready" emotionally to start
exploring the physical side of their relationship. If Liz was
"altered" or the "4th" alien, I think the kiss would have triggered
this fact.

Assuming that "altered" Liz didn't know she was altered at this
time, then why couldn't Max tell??? (Of course, we don't really know
either way.)

What makes Max attracted to Liz is the fact she is so different from
him. She even calls herself a "simple, small town girl". Max after
all has "a lot going on" (there I got my TH tie in).

Now, here's my nickel's worth. Liz Parker is completely 100% human.
Why Liz thinks she has to walk away from Max at the end of Destiny
is beyond me. Now- I've said this before in other posts. Mommogram
never said "We cloned you to save our species through reproduction."
What she said was--and I'm paraphrasing here, "You have all lived
before. We cloned our beloved leader's essence and mixed it with
human DNA along with his sister, 2nd in command, and young bride."
Let's think about why Michael, Isabel, and Tess were chosen. Michael
is easy-- 2nd in command, a friend Max trusts. Isabel, also pretty
easy, wife of Michael, sister to Max and someone he trusts. Now
Tess, this is harder. Tess was to be or was Max's spouse. Usually,
our most trusting relationship is the one we have with our spouse.
This would be a logical assembly of people to clone for such a
mission.

I don't see the need to make "Liz" the 4th or making her altered. (I
am assuming the reason for the theory is to find a way to make Max
and Liz get back together.) I do like the theory but I keep counting
it out as unnecessary. If Max and Liz get back together, it will be
because they figured out that Max doesn't have to relive his past
life to every detail. He does have free will.

Have any of you ever had the experience of someone trying to "groom"
you into something you didn't want to become? It isn't pleasant,
especially if you feel obligated to do so. If Tess keeps pushing
herself onto Max wouldn't Max revolt by turning back to Liz. And Liz
would be torn between her heart and her mind. That would be a
romantic story line. Not that altered Liz is bad either.

Since I'm talking so much about Destiny. I believe that Mom was
real, not Tesselvision. What I don't understand, who on Earth (or
planet x) actually thought that this plan was feasible? I mean think
about it, it's farfetched!!!

Qfanny





07-21-2000 07:16 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 Qfanny:

You are right to say we have no solid "proof" of an altered Liz or
that Liz is the 4th alien. What we HAVE is a lot of circumstantial
evidence and some serious plot holes in our story line.

What viewers (and I included myself in this) have done is try to
fill in the plot holes and make sense of what we see on the screen.

For instance:

FACT--at the beginning of SH Liz (in shower) reports that something
inside is changing--it feels like something "chemical"

FACT: Liz gets glowing hickies and strange rashes and see flashes.

FACT: After multiple make-out session with Michael, Maria NEVER
reports any of the above.

SUPPOSITION: Liz is somehow "different" than Maria.

FACT: Both Liz and Maria are the same age and gender and since both
are dating aliens it seems that they both have a lot in common.

FACT The one thing that sets Liz apart from Maria is that Max healed
her--and that both seem to recognize in the other a "soulmate".

SUPPOSITION: Max and Liz share a special connection because:

--Max healed her and began a process that altered her mentally (she
can now receive flashes), or
--Liz is being changed physically, or
--Liz is the 4th alien, or
--Liz is Max's eternal soulmate, or....

Do you see what is happening above? Fans try to fill in the gaps in
the storyline by logical extrapolation.

Truthfully--I think there is a less conscious thing happening as
well. People who espouse the altered Liz/Liz = 4th alien/eternal
soulmate theories are also avid supporters of M/L. All of these
theories are able to bridge the species gap between Liz and Max--a
gap that is a "huge" obstacle between them.

The theories developed on the "Importance of Liz to the alien
mythology" thread take this a step further. They manage to elevate
Liz to a key position in the storyline precisely when next fall's
stated emphasis will be--alien mythology. Thus at a time when
Destiny threatens to drive M/L apart (and indeed Liz leaves Max) we
construct a theory that manages to bridge even Destiny!

What does all of this really indicate? (Again folks I'm talking
about myself as well here--I have speculated long and hard about an
altered Liz).

What it indicates to me is that standing behind all this speculative
effort is a basic desire to bind M and L together in a way that
defies any obstacles hurled at them. All three of the theories above
do this. Why?

Max and Liz are the stuff of epic legend. Even Maria comments within
the story world on the idealism presented by M/L as the perfect
couple. Is it any wonder that, given half a chance, we will let our
creative juices flow long and hard, and come up with "logical" ways
to preserve this mythic love story? After all--regardless of whether
or not I've ever experienced this ideal romantic love in my own
life, there is something that wants to make me fight for the ideal
as I see it in M and L.!!!

Of course this doesn't mean that these theories are "wrong" -- only
time (and our writers) will tell whether they'll make it on screen.
But it does perhaps help us to understand why we have spent so much
time on the subject!

Qfanny, the point you make is well taken.

LSS



07-21-2000 07:16 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 399 Qfanny: I totally agree. Well put.




07-21-2000 07:36 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 LSS very well put I totally agree. I will add one thing,
there are just as many CLUES in the STORY to support these ideas as
there are time travel clues and the like.....if they weren't in the
story NO ONE would be able to find them, but they are there.




07-21-2000 08:18 PM

Karst

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 198 RE: colors and powers

Maybe I'm just causing trouble, but . . . has anyone else thought
that Max creates a blue light (if any) when he uses his powers,
while Michael creates a white/yellow light? When Max heals (except
for minor things, like Michael's black eye), he creates a blue
light. In the cave in Riverdog, he created a blue light. In Destiny,
when he shuts up the agent in the closet, we can't tell because we
see the light through his hand. (Max's hand would create a red tinge
to any light. Like when the light shines through his ears in TH. )
Michael's kinetic energy/lightning bolt thingy makes yellow/white
light. So did his changing his fingerprint. I think Into the Woods
is scheduled to be reshown - I don't have it taped, and have been
wanting to see if Michael makes a blue light when he fixes
Riverdog's ankle. I'm afraid it will be a minor healing and not show
any light.

Isabel normally doesn't create light with her powers. Except in BB,
when she draws Alex's blood, she seems to be using her powers to
fill up the test tube directly. There seems to be a bit a blue
light.

Tess hasn't created any light I have noticed.

LSS: I agree with you about shapeshifting aliens being rare. But the
momogram doesn't necessarily mean that the enemy is a different
species, or even different variants derived from one parent stock.
Some posters have mentioned the possibility of the war being a civil
war, but I'm can't remember in what contexts. That may be why they
can be identified "only be the evil within" - physically, they are
the same as Max's people. We may be dealing with the alien
equivalent of Nazis, except the "Nazi aliens" may not even have an
obviously different culture. (As was the case between Germany and
the allies in WWII.) Sorry I can't tell what is original and what
I'm might be accidentally borrowing.

[Edited by Karst on 07-21-2000 at 08:26 PM]





07-21-2000 08:44 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by GraceKel
LSS very well put I totally agree. I will add one thing, there are
just as many CLUES in the STORY to support these ideas as there
are time travel clues and the like.....if they weren't in the
story NO ONE would be able to find them, but they are there.



GraceKel:

Yes you do spot items in the show that are just as much "fact" as
the items I listed in my above post. But I would venture to suggest
that the intepretation that you draw from these and the significance
you attribute to these are your own "spin". For example, I doubt if
many Tess/Max supporters are big "altered Liz" fans. Or that they
would agree with Liz's increasing significance for the alien
mythology of Roswell (Just as they might challenge the significance
of the clues you note).

I do think that there are dangling plot elements and plot holes that
make a host of interpretations possible. This allowed, for example,
on our old SF of SH thread, for us to spin the original "altered
Liz" theories. And I still like these! And I am intrigued by the way
the Liz/alien mythology thread has been able to flesh out all the
implications of Grandma Claudia/the native American connection.
Again--another ambiguous plot element that our writers went out of
their way to present and then never did anything with it--yet. Much
of the speculation over on that thread is fascinating and would make
a great story arc.

But again--to see these clues and be convinced of them (when their
implications have not yet been made explicit in the story line)
remain at the level of speculation. As such, they reflect, at the
very least, a vested interest in the direction that such speculation
takes you.

LSS

P.S. I really like the connections made between Claudia's
research/aliens/Liz. It is a direction I hope the writers take. In
the meanwhile I have to be satisfied with fanfic writers who put in
narrative what our TV series writers have only alluded to!




07-21-2000 09:33 PM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by Qfanny

Now, here's my nickel's worth. Liz Parker is completely 100%
human. Why Liz thinks she has to walk away from Max at the end of
Destiny is beyond me. Now- I've said this before in other posts.
Mommogram never said "We cloned you to save our species through
reproduction." What she said was--and I'm paraphrasing here, "You
have all lived before. We cloned our beloved leader's essence and
mixed it with human DNA along with his sister, 2nd in command, and
young bride." Let's think about why Michael, Isabel, and Tess were
chosen. Michael is easy-- 2nd in command, a friend Max trusts.
Isabel, also pretty easy, wife of Michael, sister to Max and
someone he trusts. Now Tess, this is harder. Tess was to be or was
Max's spouse. Usually, our most trusting relationship is the one
we have with our spouse. This would be a logical assembly of
people to clone for such a mission.



Exactly; and may I elaborate? Isabel isn't just a pretty face.....
Sorry, I got lost. Iz is also a most useful intelligence agent. We
see this in Monsters, when she is bedeviling Maria; in WR, when
locating Max, and in Destiny, while interrogating Pierce. Tess has
her uses, too! If you want a diversion, or to feed false info to
your enemies, Tess is just the agent for the job. (See WR and
Destiny.) Having both of their talents available will make for a
powerful team.

Let's also not forget the humans, who complement the Pod Squad. Alex
is good with electronics; he converted the video bug for the
podsters. Liz and Maria, at the very least, can boost their guys'
abilities, and keep them sane. Kyle can prove to be useful, if his
family's history of police work bequeaths him detective talents.

When you look the situation over, this group of 4+4 should prove to
be a very capable force. Now if they only had more info. If we only
had more info...




07-21-2000 10:43 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 603 quote:


Originally posted by Reggie
Liz and Maria, at the very least, can boost their guys' abilities,
and keep them sane.


And Liz can "see the evil within," but thus far that seems limited
to when she is kissing. No doubt about it, compared with the aliens'
abilities, the humans look pretty insignificant. In fact, without
the romance element, who needs humans? Certainly not the writers.

But, back to Toy House: If the importance of Max's essence lies at
least in part in his sense of loyalty, then Earth Mom & Dad and Liz
will remain central to the plot.




07-21-2000 10:56 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 229 Just to let you know where I'm coming from when I come up
with my theories, I look, not only at the stories, but at the
background clues and dialog. Being a geologist has taught me to try
to take everything into consideration when constructing what may
seem like a plausible theory. I then try to throw as many stones at
that theory as I can think of and see how it stands up to the
beating.

I also try to think like one of the writers; what current events are
happening in our society that would make for an interesting story
arc. My current theory is based on racial tolerance. Some of the
interesting things that such a story arc could address would be
trust issues, interracial relationships, pre-ordained fates (this
time it's Liz wondering if all of this with Max could be prearranged
type situation), prejudice and genocide; rather interesting topics
that could be tied into the scifi aspect and the alien mythology.
The idea that one of the original podsters was from a different race
seems like a great way to address such issues and tie in the
problems on the home world. Max's bride seems the most logical
candidate for this position. Who knows, maybe Momma was hoping they
could learn to work together if they were not cognisant of their
origins. As the first line in Fear states: 'Morning smiles, like the
face of a newborn child-innocent, unknowing.' It's clues like this,
from the very beginning of Max's and Liz's relationship that lead me
to my conclusions.




07-21-2000 11:05 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 quote:


Originally posted by Reggie
quote:


Originally posted by Qfanny

Exactly; and may I elaborate? Isabel isn't just a pretty
face..... Sorry, I got lost. Iz is also a most useful
intelligence agent. We see this in Monsters, when she is
bedeviling Maria; in WR, when locating Max, and in Destiny,
while interrogating Pierce.



True... and in 285 South, Isabel was getting info from the Highway
Patrol guy while doing a little "flirting".
quote:


Let's also not forget the humans, who complement the Pod Squad.
Alex is good with electronics; he converted the video bug for
the podsters. Liz and Maria, at the very least, can boost their
guys' abilities, and keep them sane. Kyle can prove to be
useful, if his family's history of police work bequeaths him
detective talents.



Liz and Maria are also very fast on their feet... Maria especially
is always coming up with plans to save the day. Liz has her native
intellegence. They both are good at thinking around corners... and
Maria is very intuitive at spotting deception (as in Topolski and
Tess... both of whom she suspected early on).
Kyle has great athletic ability as well. He'd be great back up
muscle (*sigh, giggle*)





07-22-2000 07:43 AM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 quote:


Originally posted by rocklowery
Just to let you know where I'm coming from when I come up with my
theories, I look, not only at the stories, but at the background
clues and dialog. Being a geologist has taught me to try to take
everything into consideration when constructing what may seem like
a plausible theory. I then try to throw as many stones at that
theory as I can think of and see how it stands up to the beating.

I also try to think like one of the writers....



rocklowery, thanks for saying this. Your method is what I strive for
too. I don't claim to achieve it perfectly, so my conclusions may be
influenced by my hopes and fears, like anyone's. But my aim is to
get facts in, not (for example) to keep Tess out.




07-22-2000 07:58 AM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 quote:


Originally posted by LSS
...to see these clues and be convinced of them (when their
implications have not yet been made explicit in the story line)
remain at the level of speculation. As such, they reflect, at the
very least, a vested interest in the direction that such
speculation takes you.



And yet, LSS, more than once you have expressed restraint about some
line of reasoning, on the grounds that it goes in a direction you
like. You apply extra caution to guard against that kind of bias. So
I don't think that the results of careful clues-based speculation
are necessarily biased in the direction one prefers.




07-22-2000 12:32 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
quote:


And yet, LSS, more than once you have expressed restraint about
some line of reasoning, on the grounds that it goes in a
direction you like. You apply extra caution to guard against
that kind of bias. So I don't think that the results of careful
clues-based speculation are necessarily biased in the direction
one prefers.



No, I agree--not "necessarily." But as you have noted...when I
enter the realm of speculation I try to be extra-careful because
in some ways there are far less parameters for guidance. And I
certainly think the writers give us "clues". But this is where the
issue of interpretation comes into play (and the whole issue of
authorial intent).

I see some things and I wonder at their significance. I see others
and wonder IF they are significant. I see still others and KNOW
that they are significant. How I make those calls, in part, is
determined by my own sense of the story as well as the clues
themselves. It is that subjective element that I am referring to.
We live in a post-modern world where we no longer are as assured
that objective viewing is ever as objective as we thought it was.

You know, the post above that started this discussion was not
directed at clues oriented people per se...it was part of an
ongoing reflection of my own on just why it is that many of us
want to have an altered Liz/etc.

My musing went something like this (spurred on by Qfanny's post):

1) We have not been told Liz is altered, etc.
2) We are spending a lot of intellectual energy spinning out
various plot arc in which she is.
3) IF SHE IS AS QFANNY NOTES, 100% human, then what is the
function of all this activity...why is it important?

Of course, QFanny might be wrong, and the rest of us right. That
is, the "clues" we've picked up on might be intentional and will
blossom into a full story arc next Fall.

But my remarks above attempted to take QFanny's observation at
face value and ask a hard question....what is the function of
these theories...why do we like them so much?

That is all I was trying to do...didn't mean to ruffle anyone's
methodological feathers!

And I think Liz's comment in MTTM about being changed was either a
direct allusion to these threads/theories, or else a "clue" that
the altered Liz idea might be right. Nemo--what do you think about
that comment? A tongue-in-cheeck reference to these
discussions...or a bona fide clue?

LSS



[Edited by LSS on 07-22-2000 at 12:37 PM]





07-22-2000 12:44 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 Just to throw in my two dinero on methodology, ect...
Even with a set of facts/clues... those facts are always left open
to interpretation. (I know that you know this, but I like
demonstrating that I actually know something ) As a historical
scholar (chuckle, wheeze) we are taught to look at not just the
facts, but to put them in the context of the time in which they
occurred, and to think about our current biases and prejudices when
interpreting them. This is even more flaky when dealing with
something as subjective as art, where everything is left open to
interpretation. I love speculating on where all of this is leading
(it's good exercise for my mushy brain muscles), but even if we
correctly figure out every clue that's dropped, the writers may
still decide that they would like to change direction and *poof*,
it's all for naught.
In the mean time...
Right arm!!! Keep the faith!




07-22-2000 01:05 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 LSS I think everyone who posts whether they admit it or
not is putting their own spin or interpretation on things, no one
can be completely objective I don't care who you are, for some it is
just done subconsciously, you tell yourself well I am going to try
to be objective here. The funny thing is I would have never
originally thought of Liz's connection to the Alien Myth, someone
else started the thread, and what they said made sense, and
somewhere along the way I think it was Max2000 who posted that there
may be some significance about VENUS, I never found these things but
they seemed like clues that I had missed so I started trying to
piece things together. I am a total DREAMGIRL, I HAVE NEVER DENIED
THAT and I have admitted many times that I reject some peoples
theories because that is not how I would like the story to go, it
has been on the thread you can see that, I try to be honest, but I
also think that some people reject things that make perfect sense
because that is not how THEY would like the story to go for one
reason or another, and that is okay, just be honest about it.

All I am saying is that we are all guessing and theorizing, whether
I agree with people or not or I think their ideas are out there or
not I try not to be insulting about it.




07-22-2000 01:12 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 quote:


Originally posted by LSS

Of course, QFanny might be wrong, and the rest of us right. That
is, the "clues" we've picked up on might be intentional and will
blossom into a full story arc next Fall.

But my remarks above attempted to take QFanny's observation at
face value and ask a hard question....what is the function of
these theories...why do we like them so much?
[Edited by LSS on 07-22-2000 at 12:37 PM]




LSS: I very well could be wrong. If I am wrong, I tend to admit it
quickly and go on to the next issue. When I wrote the post, and hit
the "submit" button, I wonder how much "crap" would be hitting the
fan-- or windmill in this eppy. I just want to understand why the
alter Liz idea is so important, when I think it is unnecessary. Even
though I didn't come right out ask this you saw this big question.

I realize I am rather a new face around the boards and you may not
understand who I am. I just the type of person that tends to play
devil's advocate to facilitate conversation. I never wanted to try
to change anyone's ideas about anything. (As if I could, everyone
here is more clever than me anyway.) I just felt it was important to
express how I see it, even if it isn't popular.

I am really looking forward to the SF of Blind Date. I can't wait to
see what you write.




07-22-2000 02:06 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 229 One of these days I'll get this figured out!

[Edited by rocklowery on 07-22-2000 at 02:15 PM]





07-22-2000 02:12 PM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 229 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo

rocklowery, thanks for saying this. Your method is what I strive
for too. I don't claim to achieve it perfectly, so my conclusions
may be influenced by my hopes and fears, like anyone's. But my aim
is to get facts in, not (for example) to keep Tess out.



As with you my conclusions are influenced in part on my hopes and
fears, I try my best to come up with at least a modicum of proof to
support those hopes and fears. For instance, I always see Max and
Liz together, no matter what Tess may try!!! I also try to apply a
little of Ocham's Razor (as stated in "Contact"), since if things
are too complex it will lose the viewers.

Qfanny, don't sell yourself short. I like reading the posts from
devils advocates they always have good points that I can use to
throw stones at my theories! I guess part of the reason I really dig
the altered Liz idea is that it ties in so well to all the
references to her being special. Whether she's an enhanced human or
part alien is definitely open to anyones interpretation.

[Edited by rocklowery on 07-22-2000 at 02:26 PM]





07-22-2000 02:26 PM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 QFanny - I like playing the devil's advocate, too. I also
like to throw out things and have people "throw rocks at them" (in
rocklowery's words) so that I have to then flex my mind in a
different direction. I also feel sort of out of my league here, at
times. I am not a scientist in the strictist sense of the word... I
AM a social scientist, however, and a mushy romantic at heart (pun
intended ). We all see things differently, but that's where the
interesting dialogue comes in. As a teacher of the wonderful world
of Social Studies, I encourage debate and conversation (topical, of
course) in my classes, because it makes them think, and know that
the world is made up of a myriad of different perspectives on all of
the issues we discuss. Individuality makes the world go 'round!

[Edited by Lorrilei1960 on 07-22-2000 at 02:28 PM]





07-22-2000 02:49 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 quote:


Originally posted by LSS

I see some things and I wonder at their significance. I see others
and wonder IF they are significant. I see still others and KNOW
that they are significant. How I make those calls, in part, is
determined by my own sense of the story as well as the clues
themselves....

...I think Liz's comment in MTTM about being changed was either a
direct allusion to these threads/theories, or else a "clue" that
the altered Liz idea might be right. Nemo--what do you think about
that comment? A tongue-in-cheek reference to these
discussions...or a bona fide clue?



Maybe both. (I am not keen on the altered-Liz theories, especially
of the biochemical sort. And I think biologically she's 100% human.
But somehow she's special, as Grandma said. More special than she
knows. Every day I try to pull together the scattered clues that
persuade me of this. But it's complicated. Maybe by October...?) I
think this is a genuine clue. But haven't there been many others? I
thought Liz has been saying things like that for a long time. And
isn't there a chorus of voices from background objects like that
CHANGE sign on the vending machine behind Liz and Maria at school
while Grandma was in the hospital (LN)?

I'm with those who think that Max's reverse connection with Liz
enabled some latent human ability, giving her enhanced perception.
(Sort of your basic minimum altered-Liz theory. Beyond that I
haven't gone yet.) This could be the main significance of the remark
in question.

I wonder whether this ability to see the true nature of things will
be a crucial contribution against the evil aliens. Maybe their chief
means of enslavement is manipulation of perceptions, as Orwell
warned us about? Foreshadowed by Isabel's snooty friends: "In this
world, image is everything..." Maybe the bad guys know this, and
that's why Liz is a target?

Now I'm struck by the line above that in the transcript. Nasedo:
"It's true, Tess and Max were made to be together." I think this is
a devil's half-truth. Yes, I think Tess is intended for Max, but the
intent is on the part of AlienMom's enemies.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-22-2000 at 03:12 PM]





07-22-2000 07:59 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 Nemo with all the clues I have found I have written on
other threads that I feel that the writers have been clever enough
to leave the story WIDE OPEN TO TAKE in any direction they please.

And one thing I do believe is that Liz is absolutely 100% human! I
am not even convinced of the altered Liz theory quite frankly, but
what I do leave open is that she might have been the intended
PODSTER but somehow something went wrong or was tampered with. Now
some say well why do they have to do that why can't Liz just be a
small town girl that Max fell in love with, and I guess that is okay
but I happen to think that it makes for good SCI FI if there happens
to be more to it than that. I also leave out the theory about just
that it could be that her grandmother who seemed to know that Liz
would be finding a soulmate knew something from her Indian
Connections whether there was some prophecy or just some connection,
I don't know cannot get a handle on it really but I think these
things add to the story. There could possibly a connection to all
the humans in some way but not enough story yet to figure that out.
That is all I am saying.




07-23-2000 03:03 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 Just bumping for a response.




07-23-2000 03:35 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 604 GraceKel, I am one of those who makes no bones about the
fact that I am spinning my own tale here. Still, based on all that
I've seen and read thus far: How about if Tess is the true alien
mate as intended on the home planet, BUT, when alien essence meets
human DNA in a complete being, the alien destiny/mate element gets
filtered through the human genetic make-up. In Max's case, Liz was
thus identified as the new perfect mate. It kind of kills a little
of the romance for me, but not if you think that Liz in turn fell
humanly in love with the guy who had an alien obsession for her, and
Max's human side, in turn, fell in love with Liz, AND, with the
various connections, Liz now has an alien type response to Max.




07-23-2000 03:51 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 quote:


Originally posted by GraceKel
And one thing I do believe is that Liz is absolutely 100% human! I
am not even convinced of the altered Liz theory quite frankly, but
what I do leave open is that she might have been the intended
PODSTER but somehow something went wrong or was tampered with.



GraceKel:

As I posted on a previous thread, I do like the altered Liz theory,
but I am fairly positive (if Brown is accurate) that it is (or at
least was) not in the writers' minds. One of the NYC gathering
persons asked Brown about it and Brown didn't know what they were
talking about. In analyzing the show's SF I used this as an example
of how--due to plot holes -- viewers constructed a theory that
"filled" in the plot gaps. I happen to like the filler--but that is
quite apart from what is really happening the the writers' Roswell!

But to get back to your theory--If Liz is 100% human--how can she be
the 4th podster? did something go "wrong" with the other 3 (and that
is why, say, they still have "alien" blood) or did something go
"wrong" with Liz (and that is why her blood isn't alien). Your idea
is intriguing--I'm just asking for clarification.

LSS




07-23-2000 04:02 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 399 Shapeshifter:If the podsters hatched too early and were
not done yet with their pre-programming, Max may have been mentally
searching for his mate from then on. If Liz's "essence", aura, or
other signature energy was close enough to what he had begun to be
programmed for, then maybe when he met her, he bonded to her.



Into the dark relm of conspiracy: What if one of the adult aliens
didn't want Max to pair with Tess for some political or military
reason? What if Max was deliberately programmed wrong to a random
"frequency" for a female? Liz happened to fit the bill and was thus
the object of his affection?

I doubt if Harding would have done the tampering. He seems
pro-Tess/anti-Liz. What if the mysterious Tictac had programmed Max?
What if he had been hanging around Roswell for a while and with some
alien gizmo had been able to find Liz's "frequency" in particular to
set Max for her instead? She would be in a prominant location (Crash
Down) as well as school, so Max would run into her sometime. Did TT
know GC from an archeological dig or a visit to the reservation?
Which side is TT on? I always thought the good guys. Does good
Tictac know something bad about his leader's wife, so he is trying
to protect Max from a Tess bonding?

Sorry, kind of rambling out of control here. Bye.




07-23-2000 04:15 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 quote:


Originally posted by Palomino
Shapeshifter:If the podsters hatched too early and were not done
yet with their pre-programming, Max may have been mentally
searching for his mate from then on. If Liz's "essence", aura, or
other signature energy was close enough to what he had begun to be
programmed for, then maybe when he met her, he bonded to her.

Palomino: I think you have a good idea here that would explain Max's
attraction to Liz. It seems weird to me that the podsters did not
"hatch" all at the same time. I am not even sure of who "hatched"
first. But somehow I am thinking it was Michael/Max/Isabel, then
Tess. Maybe there is a direct correlation between length in the pods
and the ability to use their powers. Michael being possibly
"premature", maybe his difficulty (in using powers) could mean some
sort of development disablity he has to overcome. Max/Isabel seem to
have some more control, but they are not nearly as adapt as Tess.

Then again, I shouldn't rattle off my month until I know the
possible hatch order. I think there are two verision out there for
some reason.

[Edited by Qfanny on 07-23-2000 at 09:43 PM]





07-23-2000 04:20 PM

Palomino

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 399 Hatching order :
What I've seen in the series and from what Max said in "The
Balance", it was Michael (then varying amounts of time), Isabel,
Max, then Tess.




07-23-2000 04:32 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 I haven't seen Balanced (the only one I missed) so that
would explain why I'm not sure. I guess this would be a plausible
reason for the variety of skill levels in using powers between the
podsters. (See my above post.)




07-23-2000 05:10 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 604 Palomino, your theory would explain several heretofore
unexplained events. Specifically, the Too Early Hatching (which I
have also seriously considered) explains why they were running
around parentless and naked on desert roads. Also, your theory about
TicTac's role in Max's mate selection process would explain the Mona
Lisa smile on Tic Tac when he saw M/L sleeping together in the
desert. And it would still leave room for my romance scenario in
which the personal responses outweigh the programmed.

LSS, if you're still out there somewhere, have you ever had occasion
to refer to "TicTac" when talking to one of the writers, and if so,
did he/she know to whom you were refering?




07-23-2000 05:25 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 shapeshifter:

Sorry--no. I've only talked to Mr. Manager and the subject never
came up.

LSS

[Edited by LSS on 07-23-2000 at 05:29 PM]





07-23-2000 06:33 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 I have been trying to list the clues that suggest that
time travel comes into the story. But I can't find a way to do that
without also sketching what I believe is a likely backstory. So here
goes.

Notation: [clues/symbols in sq. brackets], credits in bold, sorry if
I missed anyone.

Following Rosta, I believe there are two Nasedo's active in the
story on Earth so far. For brevity, I will simplistically call them
good Nasedo and bad Nasedo (GN / BN). I believe BN is currently
playing Ed Harding, though I think he goes a lot farther back.

On the home world, the four personages named by AlienMom perish in
the strife. [Four VIP portraits in the school hallway, cairns at
Buckley Point, etc.] Former Max and his prospective bride may have
been en route to their wedding. [Larry & Jen's journey: wedding
postponed due to lethal happenings on the way; "we've been traveling
ever since"] [M/L's jeep ride, interrupted by the accident triggered
by "Mr. Ed".]

Ship carrying AlienMom's hopes leaves the home world. The departure
takes the enemies by surprise. [Max/Kyle footrace: Max gets out of
sight by starting at an unexpected time. Liz and Shelow try to evade
the crowd the same way.]

They go to Earth of the past. They want to set up the pods in a safe
place. [285-S. journey to Marathon, a name that conjures the past.
In a different time zone. Secret room under Atherton's house = pod
chamber hidden in Earth. Calendar in this room is (a) from an
earlier time than expected (5 yr. earlier than Atherton's death) and
(b) from a shipping company, one that even carried passengers in
those days. Could any one item be more symbolic of travel to an
earlier time? This is the one that convinced me. It was GraceKel who
set me looking for it.]

Enemies pursue to Earth, but don't know just where to look in time.
[Max to mom, Amy to Maria: "We lost track of the time"] (When
looking for aliens, sometimes you need a time reference. [As in
"Czechoslovakian, 9 o'clock"?])

So the enemies go to the more distant past and begin to search and
monitor. (Their kind seems to be long-lived.) When GN's ship arrives
the enemies are already on Earth. [Symbolized by skylight in
Atherton's dome -- note 1.] [Michael to BN: "I've been looking for
you for a long time." Reply: "Not as long as I've been looking for
you." He's not kidding. One gets the feeling he's been around for
centuries.]

Shortly after the departures from the home world, while the latter
is still in sight, the planet gets destroyed. We don't see just what
happened, but it is strongly implied that their sun, progressing
into its red giant phase, engulfed the planet.

The crash is a big setback to AlienMom's plan. Another, I believe is
that the fourth podster is somehow lost (by accident, maybe the
crash, or by murder). [Symbolized by the gunshot-scene flashback in
The Convention and surrounding 4-vs-3 symbols as posted earlier.]

Now we get a tale of two aliens at cross purposes. (We aren't told
much about this, but it looks symbolically re-enacted in the Pilot.)
GN works to restore the situation as closely as possible to the
original plan. The three podsters get stashed somewhere, and GN
seeks to provide a replacement for the fourth. (I have no comment on
the science or ethics of this.) This one will not be a hybrid,
that's no longer possible. The next best thing will be a human with
some of the original qualities, as far as possible. Somehow,
eventually, this is Liz, I think. Don't ask me how it was done. (I
don't think the show encourages detailed theorizing about
mechanisms.) But GN doesn't just overpower humans, he befriends a
few humans and enlists their aid.

One of them is Claudia. I believe Liz's testimony that Grandma C.
saw the crash. I conjecture that Claudia was lame, or something like
that, and GN healed her, thereby building some trust. [ I think the
writers are using her name to tell us this: "Claudia" = "lame" as
Leneba pointed out. And I think we see that healing scene
symbolically re-enacted at the end of the Pilot: Liz views the crash
scene from a low hill at some distance; Max comes to her and fixes
something about her hair by tenderly brushing it.] [This event is
important enough it gets symbolized again, when Michael heals River
Dog's ankle. Also, the writers hinted very elaborately that BN
murdered Grandma in the hospital. This confirms my belief that she
had somehow collaborated with GN.]

Also, I think GN may have enlisted Atherton's aid in finding out
about the bad aliens. But BN finds out about this, disguises himself
as GN, and kills Atherton. [Symbolized by the re-enacted handprint
murder at the crash festival: two identical-looking "aliens", the
wrong one (Kyle) seems the obvious suspect initially. Misidentified
by someone who knows him (his father the sheriff), as River Dog knew
GN. Interestingly, this same incident echoes Shiela Hubble's murder,
for which Max eventually gets wrongly blamed.]

Meanwhile, BN aims to defeat AlienMom's plan, not by killing Max,
but by subverting him. ["Now we'll have all their resources."] His
secret weapon for this is Tess. He has no regard for humans, he
murders Shiela Hubble and takes what he needs. Hubble told Max the
SS killed Shiela for her car. But the car was not taken, I think a
more biological vehicle was wanted: material to serve as the basis
for Tess. (Again, don't ask me how.) And if Shiela resembles Liz,
maybe she was targeted for that reason. (How much do the bad aliens
know about Liz, from their future?)

In this connection, remember that Isabel was able to get a blood
sample without breaking the skin, so maybe BN could take what he
wanted without leaving traces.

On this picture, we don't need to wonder about malfunctioning pods,
etc. The pods could have worked just fine for the 3. GN would have
wanted to be there for their emergence, but could have been disabled
by BN [re-enacted by the sheriff and Topolsky]. Since then, he's
been watching out for them and Liz. Is there any reason to think
Tess was ever in the same pods? (Did BN even know where they were
until recently?) She could have been fabricated separately and
introduced with false stories at the opportune time. [Hinted at by
her school records showing date of birth a little earlier than Max,
not later? (It reminds me of a cowbird's egg hatching a little
earlier than the other nestlings, to be a more effective
supplanter.) Another clue, like the wrong hair length, etc., that
that recent pod-emergence vision is a fake.]

Sorry this got so long; today I didn't get time to write less.

------
Notes.
1. This pentagon-web symbol seems really clever. A four-quadrant
symbol would readily suggest a direction-finder display. A six-sided
version would more readliy suggest a spiderweb. This intermediate,
fivefold form evokes both images, but with a strange, alien feel.
Perfect. It also conveys a widespread presence, since you may see
one on the car in front of you at any time....

[Edited by Nemo on 07-23-2000 at 10:02 PM]





07-23-2000 07:25 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 A few other possible hints about time.
1. Grandma's visit was unexpectedly early.

2. Max, sitting drunkenly on the marquee, tells Kyle he got up there
by ladder. Kyle points out there's no ladder. Max agrees, "yeah,
now." Is he implying that a ladder was there at some other time, and
he was able to access that other time?
in vino veritas....

3. In The Convention, that info booth had a silly collection of
clocks purporting to show the time on different planets. Just before
Liz comes there, we see Max altering the one for Venus: he sets it
back a little. Hmmm....

OK, now I see that GraceKel posted this last one long ago, and asked
what significance it might have. Well, maybe:

a) Another hint that the story contains time-travel to the past?

b) Maybe that's how he healed Liz? By taking her a little into the
past, before the injury occurred?

[Edited by Nemo on 07-24-2000 at 12:29 AM]





07-23-2000 09:16 PM

Qfanny

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 167 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo

Also, the writers hinted very elaborately that BN murdered Grandma
in the hospital. This confirms my belief that she had somehow
collaborated with GN.

Nemo, I tried to dig up the SF of LN so I wouldn't have to ask this,
but what are you talking about here? Please help!! I just thought
she died of natural causes.

post script: I like your screenname for my own personal reasons. :-)





07-23-2000 09:26 PM

LSS

Crazed Fan

Registered: Feb 2000
Posts: 1325 Nemo:

I've got to say that if the writers aren't using that plot arc, they
should be! What a wonderful mind for detail you have!

LSS




07-23-2000 09:46 PM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 604 Qfanny & Nemo, I recall the discussion of foul play at
the hospital, but now I'm also recalling that Max said he couldn't
heal GC because her situation was not like Liz's. That seems to nix
the murder theory, but it still could be a possibility. I suspect
after episode 4 of season 2 we'll know for sure if there's going to
be a GC tie in or if that's just a chapter in a closed book.

Oh, and Nemo, I appreciate that you tried to use fonts to separate
things but right now it's all bold (***imagine a smilie here with
red eyes***). I had the same thing happen when I tried to get fancy
with italics. Anyway, please fix it so we can all read it without
sunglasses! Thank you!




07-23-2000 09:56 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 Shapeshifter, I fixed one error. Did that take care of
it? I can't tell, because on my browser it looked OK even before the
fix.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-23-2000 at 10:31 PM]





07-23-2000 09:58 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 NEMO WOW! What a deep thinker you are, I have found many
clues(bits and pcs) but you should be on the writing staff! Just
incredible!

LSS I don't really subscribe to the Liz is altered theory,
originally I thought her importance surfaced only by what story
would unfold after we got a look at GC soon to be published book on
the Indians and that would provide clues. But as I started
rewatching all the episodes and stopped swooning over the romance
stuff and looked for background clues and listened carefully to how
things were worded and started slow-moing (my VCR is almost gone) I
started finding unexpected clues, truly they surprised me as well!
The one clue that really got me thinking that maybe Liz was the
original INTENDED (BUT MAYBE TAMPERED WITH) podster was when I quite
accidentally saw in the RIVERDOG episode Liz symbolically peeling
away the paper down in Atherton's basement(shown from inside the
tunnel-I had people watch it with me and asked them what does this
look like and they said it looks like she is breaking out of a pod
much the way they showed Max breaking out of his pod. WHY WOULD THEY
SHOW THIS IF IT HAD NO MEANING! If you look at the symbols on the
map, many have described as a V with four podster boxes one of them
is opened and a small dot follows it--could that last one have been
opened and a replacement put in. It seems like it could be this, but
I am not saying that it could not be way off either!LOL In Max to
the Max ep after Tess unloads her story on Max he says he has a lot
to think about and she says "I am here for you, if you need me" and
the sign right behind her says "NO SUB" I took this to mean "No
she's a substitute" now you could say well it could be that she is
not a sub but then the sign should have read "THE REAL DEAL" don't
you think or why show a sign at all. Other reasons I think Tess is a
sub have to do with the nonmatching stories about the pod hatchings

I will have to come back to finish this later sorry I will be back.




07-23-2000 10:13 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 GraceKel, thank you for that observation about Liz
opening the paper partition. That was a big piece of the puzzle I
tried to put together above: Before that, I hadn't recognized
Atherton's basement as symbolic of the pod chamber. Also, it
suggests Liz as fulfilling a role equivalent to the podsters, either
as outlined above, or in some other way.




07-23-2000 10:27 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 quote:


Originally posted by shapeshifter Qfanny & Nemo, I recall the
discussion of foul play at the hospital, but now I'm also
recalling that Max said he couldn't heal GC because her situation
was not like Liz's. That seems to nix the murder theory....



I don't think that bears against the murder theory much. As I recall
there were two theories about why Max thought he couldn't heal GC:

1) The damage was more involved and widespread, more than he could
repair. (Palomino's suggestion. Makes sense to me.) Or it had
existed for too long, farther than he could go back. (Did he heal
Liz by doing repairs, like a surgeon? Or by "setting the Venus clock
back a little"?) Well, even on the murder theory, those reasons
still hold.

2) If Max held back because he thought it wasn't right to intervene
in Grandma's case, well, he didn't know about our murder suspicions,
did he?

[Edited by Nemo on 07-24-2000 at 12:15 AM]





07-23-2000 10:45 PM

Nemo

Addicted Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 509 Qfanny, about Grandma, let me search for those old posts.
Here, let me just say that if one doesn't catch the clues about
Grandma, then the next episode (Missing) can seem slow and almost
inconsequential. But once you see the issue of what happened to
Grandma, then Missing reads like Leaving Normal, Part 2: The
Investigation. With Inspector DeLuca challenging us to get on with
it. She ticks off the familiar triad to consider: Motive,
Opportunity,... Conspicuously absent from her list is Means. That's
what most of the clues are about. (In a hospital there is usually no
lack of Opportunity even if you're not a shapeshifter.) And once
you're convinced the writers are telling us there was a crime, then
you have to wonder Why? Now we have not one but two classes of
victims/targets: (1) FBI/law-enforcement types, and (2) Grandma,
Liz, and a pregnant woman who looks something like Liz. Those are
some of the odd facts that eventually led me to the hypothesis
above: that the aliens have some special interest in Liz and her
family, and Grandma was in the thick of it. Max to Liz: "It was
before your time."

OK, I found some former posts on this. The middle reference is
probably the main one. There is some overlap.

06-05 12:59 PM SF of Destiny
http://www.fanforum.com/forum/upload/showthread.php?threadid=23216&pagenumber=5

06-11 11:16 PM (end of page) SF of MA
http://www.fanforum.com/forum/upload/showthread.php?threadid=30650

07-04 04:13 PM (end of page) SF of LN
http://www.fanforum.com/forum/upload/showthread.php?threadid=35811

[Edited by Nemo on 07-24-2000 at 07:16 AM]





07-23-2000 11:43 PM

Reggie

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jul 2000
Posts: 126 quote:


Originally posted by LSS
And I think Liz's comment in MTTM about being changed was either a
direct allusion to these threads/theories, or else a "clue" that
the altered Liz idea might be right. Nemo--what do you think about
that comment? A tongue-in-cheeck reference to these
discussions...or a bona fide clue?
LSS

Perhaps she was falling in Love, for the first time? She was dating
before, but didn't seem to have any real passion for anyone. If this
was her first experience of falling in love, she might well think
that this feels very strange, but nice. (Her heart goes, pitter
patter; we know just, what's the matter... Everybody sing! )

She's altered, all right, by Love. What would "Harding" think?


[Edited by Reggie on 07-23-2000 at 11:46 PM]





07-24-2000 12:01 AM

Lorrilei1960

Addicted Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 645 quote:


Originally posted by Reggie


Perhaps she was falling in Love, for the first time? She was
dating before, but didn't seem to have any real passion for
anyone. If this was her first experience of falling in love, she
might well think that this feels very strange, but nice. (Her
heart goes, pitter patter; we know just, what's the matter...
Everybody sing! )

She's altered, all right, by Love. What would "Harding" think?


When I think of the "altered-Liz" theory, and her comments about
being changed, it always leads me back to her monologue at the
beginning of SH... the change that she feels is so powerful it's
like... chemical.
At first I just thought she was talking about raging hormones and
her increased biological drive because of her feelings for
Maximilian... but perhaps it was something more. Whatever it was...
it led to some very interesting events!




07-24-2000 08:49 AM

rocklowery

Dedicated Fan

Registered: Jun 2000
Posts: 229 Interesting discussion. Bump




07-24-2000 09:03 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 604 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
Shapeshifter, I fixed one error. Did that take care of it? I can't
tell, because on my browser it looked OK even before the fix.

[Edited by Nemo on 07-23-2000 at 10:31 PM]




Yes! thanks!




07-24-2000 09:18 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 604 quote:


Originally posted by Reggie
Perhaps she was falling in Love, for the first time? She was
dating before, but didn't seem to have any real passion for
anyone. If this was her first experience of falling in love, she
might well think that this feels very strange, but nice. (Her
heart goes, pitter patter; we know just, what's the matter...
Everybody sing! )

She's altered, all right, by Love. What would "Harding" think?




Very cute, Reg.
But let's not forget that her human biological awakening happened to
occurr with and at the same time as an alien's biological awakening,
and after he had "made a connection" with her. And, as we shall see
tonight, when his inhibitions are down due to a swallow of booze,
and then he kisses her, she has her first visions of his space past
as he he sobers up.
Maybe Liz isn't "changed" in the sense of water into wine, but
definitely she's not the same as she would have been had she stayed
with Kyle. Like Maria and Max had both said early on, there is no
way of knowing what will happen if a human and an alien get
together.
Well, if it was Max and I was Liz, I'd sure want to experiment!




07-24-2000 09:29 AM

shapeshifter

Addicted Fan

Registered: May 2000
Posts: 604 quote:


Originally posted by Nemo
quote:


Originally posted by shapeshifter Qfanny & Nemo, I recall the
discussion of foul play at the hospital, but now I'm also
recalling that Max said he couldn't heal GC because her
situation was not like Liz's. That seems to nix the murder
theory....



I don't think that bears against the murder theory much. As I
recall there were two theories about why Max thought he couldn't
heal GC:

1) The damage was more involved and widespread, more than he could
repair. (Palomino's suggestion. Makes sense to me.) Or it had
existed for too long, farther than he could go back. (Did he heal
Liz by doing repairs, like a surgeon? Or by "setting the Venus
clock back a little"?) Well, even on the murder theory, those
reasons still hold.

2) If Max held back because he thought it wasn't right to
intervene in Grandma's case, well, he didn't know about our murder
suspicions, did he?

[Edited by Nemo on 07-24-2000 at 12:15 AM]




Nemo, these points occurred to me too. Maybe I dismissed them
because it seems inappropriate on a teen show to have someone's
beloved grandma murdered. But then, I thought White Room was on the
edge, and the scenes in SH didn't need to be quite so long. Excuse
me, my prude gene is showing.




07-25-2000 03:26 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 Nemo I definitely think Grandma was knocked off no
question about that--I hope her books provides some clues...

Anyway I saw you were all trying to recall the BALANCE Max
description of meeting Michael and how different it is from Tess
account or memories from Tess or whatever

"I remember the first time I saw Michael, it was in the desert, the
night we first came out of the pods, the sky was bright with stars
and this full moon, Isabel and I found each first, we didn't know
how to speak but we could communicate anyway....we walked for
AWHILE, But we could both feel someone else (Liz butts in "MICHAEL")
He said he saw us but he was afraid and that he just watched us for
a long time. When he finally revealed himself he was standing on
this big rock just like you'd expect from Michael, "HERE I AM DEAL
WITH ME"--"He said it was the hardest thing he's ever had to do is
trust us.
(there is no mention of any pod chamber)

In the memories from Tess, when they opened the POD CHAMBER it was
bright daylight--Isabel's hair was long not shorter.

Now was Max having some kind of false memory when telling this story
or was the later memory planted? Just thought I would share because
you were talking about it earlier on this thread.




07-25-2000 03:35 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 Nemo please join us over on the new Liz Import to Alien
Myth thread -promise no spoilers we have discussed this and there
are no spoilers, you have so much to share, so please join us.




07-26-2000 10:52 PM

GraceKel

Crazed Fan

Registered: Dec 1999
Posts: 1026 Just bumping this thread

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