Fanforum - The Science Fiction of Roswell

The Science Fiction of Tess, Lies, and Videotapes
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LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-17-2000 10:31 PM

While we are recovering from that lab scene, it may be therapeutic
for us all to turn our minds to the SF aspects of Tess, Lies, and
Videotapes -- for there were several elements that struck me as
curious:
1. MIND CONTROL VS. BIOLOGICAL INFLUENCE.
It was obvious that when Max came into close proximity to Tess he
became mesmerized. What is not obvious is why this happened. At
least two possibilities come to mind:
a) Mental Control. Is Tess intentionally influencing Max? Max thinks
she is, but can he be trusted in his perception? Did you see any
evidence that Tess was aware of what was going on (other than on the
level of sexual attraction)? If you did, then perhaps we are talking
about some kind of mind control, and since it deals with sexual
actions, then it becomes a bit more disturbing. Not simply because
of the coupling it evokes, but because it does so against the will
of at least one of the people involved (Max).
b) Biological Influence. Another explanation for Max's entranced
state could be that it stems from a more biological source. Are we
talking alien mating patterns here? Can Max help what is happening?
I couldn't get out of my mind the image of a moth mesmerized by a
flame as he walked up to Tess in that rain scene. What is the nature
of the attraction that he feels for Tess?
2. MAX'S VISIONS. While we have seen visions in previous episodes,
the ones Max experiences in TLV are different in two ways. First of
all, up until this episode, some type of contact has been a
prerequisite for visions (the touching of either an object or a
person). But in the lab and in the cafe, Max has a vision simply by
looking at Tess. Secondly, when Max kisses Liz, his vision of Tess
is highly unusual. It does not qualify as a flashback, because it
features Tess as we know her, but in a scenario that has not as yet
happened. Is Max experiencing flashes of the future--a future in
which he and Tess will find themselves in that location (which
reseambles the place Michael went during his vision in Balance)? If
so, then this is the first future oriented vision we have seen in
the series--are we talking precognition here?
3. THE VISIONS OF THE PODS. When Max kisses Tess in the rain, he
sees what looks like a figure in some kind of container (it reminded
me of SF suspended animation units). We can assume, perhaps, that
this is the much alluded "pod" from which our teens emerged. But the
scene we saw shows a figure that has yet to emerge. What is the
significance of this vision? Like Max, we are tempted to ask
Tess--who are you?
4) THE IDENTITY OF TESS. In the last frame we find out that Tess is
"not what she seems" to be. That she is an alien is without
question. But who she is, and even what she is, is open to debate.
Is she like M/Mi/I? Is she the fourth alien--Nesedo? And what about
Mr. Harding--a cold fish if we ever saw one! Did he give anyone else
the "creeps"?
Well folks, are Max's daydreams simply the product of a teenage
boy's raging hormones? Or is something more sinister happening in
Roswell?

What do you think?
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-18-2000).]
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-18-2000).]

kspacegirl Posts: 182 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-17-2000 10:46 PM

here are my abridged reflections (for now)
1. MIND CONTROL vs BIOLOGICAL DRIVE
yes,tess obviously has some strong alien pheromones at her disposal,
but she also is using her telepathic powers (prowess) to control
him. (my guess- she is obviously an agent... willing or not...she is
being used by government..getting ahead of myself here.
2.MAX's VISIONS
his visions are different now because they are more dynamic due to
the fact that tess is generating them. she is reaching out to him
via ESP and "touching" him that way.
3. THE PODS
i think that the girl we see in the pod is tess... maybe she didnt
emerge from her pod after the crash and the government found her in
it... she was subsequently reared by the government.
4. TESS
well, i have already commented on this... she is definitely alien,
and i think she is not nasedo. nasedo is different- an independent
renegade acting in the interest of aliens. i think tess is an alien
who has been captured by the government, reared by them and now
employed by them to ferret out other aliens.
5. THE ATTRACTION
max is definitely drawn to what he percieves as a more suitable
physiological match... but he is also influenced by her intentional
seduction... although tess is surely being prompted to lure max into
some kind of government web, she is also probably legitimately
attracted to max. my prediction- she does fall for him for real and
this leads to her downfall- the bad guys will either kill her for
her betrayal or she will martyr herself for max and the others.
max definitely loves liz and truly wants to be hers alone. he is
just distracted by the strong factors which tess is using against
him.
(((((((((((((
update...
i think that isabel and max are related... and that explains why no
attraction exists between them... but even in the promo for next
week tess tells isabel about some greater "plan" that exists for
"them"... which follows into a scene of michael and isabel
snogging... why havent michael and isabel been attracted? maybe
because it was suppressed by them because they were unsure of the
appropriateness of their relations.
and tess's dad is definitely a sinister oddball.
he is totally a government supervisor of tess the alien. that is why
he is so hyper and guarded. he is human- perhaps he has raised tess
from her podling days...

[This message has been edited by kspacegirl (edited 04-18-2000).]

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-17-2000 11:03 PM

kspacegirl:
If we are talking alien pheromones, then why has Isabel never shown
any evidence of them? Are we talking mating cycles (and Isabel is
just not "ready" yet)?
What did you think of Mr. Harding? Did his behavior seem odd?
LSS

BehrAll Posts: 188 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-17-2000 11:15 PM

Well, I'm glad you asked ... heh heh.
1. I think there is a biological imperative at work, BUT it's being
deliberately reinforced by some form of subtle mind control that
close proximity reinforces.
2. Still, given the nature of Max's vision (of kissing Tess under
the Exit sign, or standing with her in the desert amidst alien
symbols), I'm thinking it might be more mind *influence* or
*suggestion* than mind *control*. After all, Tess couldn't mke Max
forget Liz or act out against her or even reject her out of hand,
but rather exerted a very strong, dare I say physical, compulsion.
3. I think Tess will show Max a vision of her coming out of a pod in
an attempt to convince him that it is *their* destiny and duty to be
together (which he, of course, shall utterly refute! Well, he'd
better!)
4. Clearly, Tess is definitely an alien, but I think Ed the Creep is
some kind of government control -- you know, a supervisor/field
agent of some kind who Tess reports to. He seemed too much of a team
player to be Nasedo. I must say, 'tho, considering how completely
clumsy his character was, he certainly played it cool, pretending
fairly convincingly that he didn't recognize Max at the door ...
Wait! *Maybe* he recognized Max, but hadn't been told yet that he
was "Liz's Max"; can anyone recall whether those surveillance photos
of Max included any that showed her in an obvious way to be his
girlfriend? Maybe *that's* what shocked him. Maybe this is what will
put Liz in danger; maybe Tess actually wasn't lying when she said
she liked Liz, and really was "sorry" that (reading between the
dialogue) Liz was so closely, and therefore dangerously involved.
Hmmm....
BTW, speaking to you sci-fi buffs, did anyone else feel a "Close
Encounter of the Third Kind" moment coming on in that huge-mound-of
mashed-potatoes-being-shaped-by-a-father's-fork scene?
Final thought (yeah, right): why wasn't Alex et al worried about
their camera use being known? After all, whoever was monitoring it
would know it was discovered, and moreover, it was never made clear
how near/far Tess' home is from Michael's; mightn't the camera's
emissions (revamped by Alex) still be in range to be detected by
whoever set it up in Michael's in the first place?
(I think it was the military ... although why no one a) freaked that
their respective residences might bugged or b) wondered if Topolsky
left it in Michaels's apartment -- she did, after all, know her
communications equipment -- is beyond me!)
[This message has been edited by BehrAll (edited 04-17-2000).]

LSS
Member

Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-17-2000 11:39 PM

I missed the potatoes!!! But now that you mention it (I think I'll
go back and look again_ I do seem to remember a hugh mass!!!
LSS

JanetMG Posts: 172 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-18-2000 04:50 AM

Definitely saw the potatos, but he hadn't quite gotten them into the
correct shape. Maybe they mimic the hills around Roswell (just
kidding).
Must go to work, but the fact that the strongest compulsions were
somewhat localized leads me to think that it is some kind of mind
control/suggestion from Tess. Maybe it's an advanced/slightly
aggressive form of Isabel's dreamwalking. You don't just observe and
participate in an existing dream, you create one whole cloth. On the
other hand, Tess at least seemed surprised by the reaction at first.
I like the idea that Tess was raised by the government. It creates
interesting character possibilities & allows her to be more of a
"gray" obstacle or villain, rather than totally evil. She obviously
knew what was in the box, but we really don't know her motivations
yet.
Is Harding Pierce? Is he an alien? Since he has a collection of
black and white photos, did he or Pierce burn the photo at the end
of Blind Date? (That would help me accept the idea that Nacedo is
good, if they're heading that way.)
The good Doc didn't know who Valenti was. Are we sure the right
"Kathleen Topolsky" died in the fire? Any sci fi possibilities if
she didn't or just suspense?
I need to rewatch the visions in TLV, but I must say the promo
seemed to have much more ammo for sci fi speculation than this
week's ep. Watch it in slow mo if you have a chance, there's some
interesting images. Can we speculate based on the promo or does
someone on this thread consider promos to be spoilers? (I don't, but
I'm one of the few that hate spoilers. This ep would have been more
interesting to me if I hadn't known already that Tess was an alien.)
Finally (and OT), if you like the more philosophical/ethical side of
sci fi, I recommend the movie, Gattaca (sp?). Definitely not a
special effects flick, but very interesting exploration of nature v.
nurture and genetics.
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 04-18-2000).]

Breathless Posts: 145 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-18-2000 04:56 AM

As much as I hate to even put it into words, there is the
possibility that M,M,I and T were brought here as biological mating
pairs. Michael and Isabel (take a look at next weeks promo) and Max
with Tess. Somehow Tess was separated from the others, found and
corrupted by the government.
These uncontrollable urges on Max's part could have been
preprogramed into his biological make-up in order to insure the
proper pairing. Could this lead to a conflict between the destiny
you choose (Max choosing Liz) or the destiny that was choosen for
you (Max with Tess). Will his sense of duty (Tess) outweight his
love (Liz).
That there is no apparent attraction going between Michael and
Isabel kinda blows my theory out of the water, but what can you
expect when its closing in on 5:00 am and I haven't gone to bed yet.

HookedAussie Posts: 150 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-18-2000 05:50 AM

LSS:
quote:

It was obvious that when Max came into close proximity to Tess he
became mesmerized. What is not obvious is why this happened. At
least two possibilities come to mind:
a) Mental Control. Is Tess intentionally influencing Max? Max
thinks she is, but can he be trusted in his perception? Did you
see any evidence that Tess was aware of what was going on (other
than on the level of sexual attraction)

I believe that Tess (along with unkown others) are manipulating Max
and the rest of the Pod Squad. Max is being manipulated through the
most basic of drives (his sexuality). He is particually vulnerable
at the moment because of his relationship with Liz which is still in
the early stages - and subsequently he is not yet mature enough to
be able to handle an attack of this sort.
quote:

b)Biological Influence. Another explanation for Max's entranced
state could be that it stems from a more biological source. Are we
talking alien mating patterns here? Can Max help what is
happening?

I think it is quite possible that Max's vulnerability to mind
manipulation could also stem from the aliens particular biological
state. Indications are that the other Pod Squad members are/will
become as strongly attached to their respective partners as Max is
to Liz (albeit in different ways) Perhaps until these attachments
solidify and mature they are all at their weakest.
quote:

2. MAX'S VISIONS. ... But in the lab and in the cafe, Max has a
vision simply by looking at Tess. Secondly, when Max kisses Liz,
his vision of Tess is highly unusual. ...are we talking
precognition here.

Here I believe is the crux of it. It is not Max's vision but rather
one forced on him by someone/something else. While I haven't seen
this episode (blood brothers is our next episode), judging from
comments like LSS's about the strangeness of these visons that I
have read on this board, then these particular visions are being
planted on him. Hence the percieved strangeness of them. If I have
read the episodes at Crashdown.com right then all the visions up to
this one have been beneficial to the Pod Squad in the pursuit of
finding out their destiny. This vision is the opposite. This appears
to drive a wedge into our six and destabilise them and keep them
from taking further steps forward.
quote:

4) THE IDENTITY OF TESS: well, i have already commented on this...
she is definitely alien, and i think she is not nasedo. nasedo is
different- an independent renegade acting in the interest of
aliens. i think tess is an alien who has been captured by the
government, reared by them and now employed by them to ferret out
other aliens.

There are several possibilities to the Tess enigma. Whether she is
working for other aliens or FBI or even being manipulated herself, I
really don't see her as a major threat to our 6. I think that this
is just the first of a series? of attacks that will come their way.
The question that remains is why? and I think, therein lies the real
story.
Sorry for the long post.. Just wanted to get some thoughts out.

peanut_and_me Posts: 139 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-18-2000 06:10 AM

I personally believe that the visions, etc. are being controled by
Tess. Now, I'm just not sure if she knows she's doing it or not.
Part of me thinks she does know. I mean, from the amount of photos
of Max in that box, and the fact that she obviously knew they were
in there (as demonstrated by her paranoid yelling at Is when she
lifted the box), I'd say it was a calculated move on her part. She
outwardly expresses interest in Max to Is also. Then that whole "my
car broke down thing. Give me a break. Why wouldn't you walk across
the street to the Crashdown and ask to use their phone if you were
in trouble?
Just some thoughts....
Oh, and Mr. Harding???!! Hello detention center for the criminally
insane, we have a patient for you.... CREEPY just doesn't cut it.
And he HAD to know who she was. With all those pics of Max, he must
have been watching him for long time and known Liz was his
girlfriend. It's not like they are being very "private" lately.
Yet at the same time, I have to wonder if she's just a pawn in some
whole gov't conspiracy thing. Maybe as someone else stated, she just
gives off these signals without even knowing it. She didn't exactly
seem affected by them at all, which makes me wonder if she knows
that Max is having these visions. I mean, even if you were
controlling the visions, wouldn't you like blush or something when
the guy sitting right next to you dreams he's taking you right there
in the middle of Bio lab??

piyxis423 Posts: 68 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-18-2000 06:21 AM

I have a thought on Tess's dad that I am suprised no one has said
anything.
I think tess's dad is Nasedo(sp?)
She fixed the statue when he knew it was broken. Plus, he was just
too creepy about asking Liz questions about Max. I dont know about
the army job that he has, but he could shapeshift into a govt
employee and do his job, no? What better way to find out
information. Anyway, does anyone else have any thoughts on this?

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-18-2000 06:27 AM

Good point--
If Mr. Harding was NOT an alien...how could Tess explain the "fixed"
statue??? Well done!!
LSS

Jei Posts: 290 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-18-2000 06:48 AM

Intresting point, but I do think Mr. Harding is an alien.
>>>b) Biological Influence. Another explanation for Max's entranced
state could be that it stems from a more biological source. Are we
talking alien mating patterns here? Can Max help what is happening?
I couldn't get out of my mind the image of a moth mesmerized by a
flame as he walked up to Tess in that rain scene. What is the nature
of the attraction that he feels for Tess? >>>>
Perhaps Max could help what is happening - if he understood what was
going on. Poor Max doesn't have a clue. He's trying to deal with how
freaked he is over the whole circumstances. Maybe Isabel has those
same qualities, but since Max is her brother and she views Michael
in the same way - those abilities haven't manifested themselves.

Roswellite Posts: 58 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-18-2000 06:50 AM

Mr Harding's identity is questionable - if he's an alien - why is
the military with him? If he is Pierce, why is Tess with him? Who
else could he be? Who were the guys with the briefcases? That
military bases that he is converting into "storage units" is
probably going to be where they take Max. So then is he bad? And I
did notice he put lots of potatoes on his plate but I don't think
this was significant unless he's a big fan of Close Encounters of
the Third Kind.
I'm leaning towards thinking he is Nasedo because of LSS said - how
would Tess explain the broken statue. They both knew about the
photos of Max in the box too. But if he has this army job and has
been raising Tess - how can he actually be another character on the
show and where has Tess been all this time?
Theory:
Maybe it's the science teacher? I mean one of the pictures of Max,
if you notice, was in science class. How could they get a picture of
Max in class unless there was a camera planted there?

Nightowl Posts: 1047 Registered: Apr 99 posted 04-18-2000 06:51 AM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS:
If we are talking alien pheromones, then why has Isabel never
shown any evidence of them? Are we talking mating cycles (and
Isabel is just not "ready" yet)?

OK, this is just a wild suggestion, but I know there has been a lot
of speculation about the purpose of the orb. Matbe it's like a
pituitary gland, it triggers this rite of passage thing that they go
through. That would explain Max's attraction to Tess just showing up
now, and the whole Isabel/Michael thing in next weeks promo.
Also, if you do frame by frame on the promo you get to see both Tess
and Max in their pods. The shot in the vision was definitely Tess in
her pod.
Eden

ddawn347 Posts: 370 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-18-2000 07:00 AM

The look Tess gave Max during Science class and that fact that she
hinted to Isabel about something she noticed was the only evidence
that Tess is aware of what is going on�which is why I feel, what Max
is going through was because of a little mind control by Tess�and
(male bashing time) the fact that when it comes to sex men just
can�t control themselves �NO MATTER WHAT� �(bashing over.) I think
Max is very vulnerable right now and losing control of himself in
many ways which is why thought manipulation is very possible�it�s
obvious Max hasn�t been himself lately...see how he keeps attacking
Michael. I also agree with Breathless� if it were a biological
influence then Mike & Isabel would have felt their attraction to one
another a long time ago.
I think all the visions occurred based on the manipulation from
Tess. Tess showed Max what she wanted her to see weather they were
real or not. If she can give Max the indication that she has
information for him, she has him. And what better way to do that but
to place them in her mind. Getting Max and the others to trust her
would take too long so she plays with Max�s mind instead and forces
him to come to her.
Mr. Harding definitely gave me the creeps�he was like one of those
evil guys who invites you to his home so he can kill, that you kind
of thing�Liz�s got guts I would have left the second I saw him�I
definitely wouldn�t have eaten their food. What was also creepy was
the way Tess and her father were looking at Liz while she was on the
phone with �her mother��Chills. I also noticed the potatos, how
could you miss them.
I�m not sure yet if Tess is Nasedo or not but she is definitely
working for the government. The idea that they raised her is
interesting and I agree with JanetMG this episode would have been
more enjoyable if I didn�t already know Tess was an alien so I�m
going to chill on the spoilers.
But if I had to make a guess I would say that Nasedo is still on the
run and Tess is a fifth alien that was found by the government. The
government thinks Max is Nasedo, which is why they are watching him
so closely. Nasedo is trying to protect the group with out giving
his or their identity away. I also believe Tess was the one doing
all the killing� basic government policy �Can�t Control Them, Kill
Them.� it�s on page one of the handbook�well that just MO
** now everyone agree with me **

roswellUK Posts: 274 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-18-2000 07:16 AM

Hi,
I have been reading "the science fiction of..." threads for a while
and find them facinating...you are a bunch of v. intelligent people!
Now please bear in mind that I am from the UK and haven't seen this
ep. yet (I Have only read the spoilers) I have a few ideas...
Breathless... I agree with your thoughts about the pod squad being
paired off for mating... (these are my own ideas and are not related
to the spoilers in any way)
I think that the 4 teenage aliens were supposed to be together so
that they can procreate...
The pairings though have been a tad confussing as Michael and Isabel
have known each other for 10 years, both have gone thru puberty and
are sexually aware.. so if they were supposed to be paired off then
why haven't they had the same urges that Max has when he is around
Tess...??
Maybe Max's urges relate to the Orb as he was the one who activated
it in SH?? He is sexually attracted to and obviously loves Liz ..
but Tess is his biological equal and if she has been programmed to
mate with Max.. then she is very difficult to resist.
Also... all the Aliens so far have displayed various powers that it
seems only they have... [going back to the idea that maybe they all
have the same powers but haven't used them yet theory...] for
example dream walking is, - according to Jason Katims in his WB
chat- Isabel's power alone and the other aliens will not be able to
dreamwalk in the future...
So is it possible that one of Tess's powers is manipulation of the
mind with an ability to put thoughts and feelings into another
peoples/aliens heads?
For example ..You guys say that Max was "mesmerised" by Tess outside
the Crashdown which is not a usual "Maxism" ... he would never
intentionally hurt Liz.. so something or someone must have been
controlling him?
I also believe that Tess was seperated from the Pod Squad when they
arrived and that the government have been her "looking after her"
for the last 10 years.. if that is the case then she perhaps has a
better understanding of her powers than M/Mi/I do?
I definately think that Mr Harding is Nasedo and he has
kidnapped/rescued Tess from the government so that he can get the
Pod Squad on side.. we still do not know what his agenda is and
until then I think that his intentions are not good. Shapeshifting
enables Nasedo to become many things...maybe even becoming Valenti
at the end?

*if this all sounds stupid.. sorry!
quote:

Originally posted by Breathless:
As much as I hate to even put it into words, there is the
possibility that M,M,I and T were brought here as biological
mating pairs. Michael and Isabel (take a look at next weeks promo)
and Max with Tess. Somehow Tess was separated from the others,
found and corrupted by the government.
These uncontrollable urges on Max's part could have been
preprogramed into his biological make-up in order to insure the
proper pairing. Could this lead to a conflict between the destiny
you choose (Max choosing Liz) or the destiny that was choosen for
you (Max with Tess). Will his sense of duty (Tess) outweight his
love (Liz).
That there is no apparent attraction going between Michael and
Isabel kinda blows my theory out of the water, but what can you
expect when its closing in on 5:00 am and I haven't gone to bed
yet.

[This message has been edited by roswellUK (edited 04-18-2000).]

Roswellite Posts: 58 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-18-2000 07:30 AM

But Tess is supposely just like Max, Michael and Isabel. She can't
shape shift - so she can't be Nasedo - or killed any of those
people. Right?

Nightowl Posts: 1047 Registered: Apr 99 posted 04-18-2000 07:35 AM

quote:

Originally posted by ddawn347:
if it were a biological influence then Mike & Isabel would have
felt their attraction to one another a long time ago.

See, I don't agree, I think that the reason it hasn't come up before
is because it wasn't time. It's like they had to wait for the right
chain of events to take place, and I think that the orb they found
has something to do with signalling the start of it. Topolsky said
it was a communication device, and it hasn't glowed since that first
night they found it, maybe it signalled the start of their evolution
into their predestined four-square.
Just my opinion,
Eden

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-18-2000 07:56 AM

Concerning the mental powers of our aliens:
Many of you have been suggesting that Tess can project visions into
Max's mind--and that explains why he does not have to touch her to
get them.
I might suggest that Max is receiving two different kinds of
visions--one that is the "flashback" type we've seen before (pods, v
shaped constellation) and the other some type of thought/fantasy
projection.
In last night's interview, Katim (when asked if there will be any
more dreamwalking) noted that Max and Michael CANNOT dreamwalk.
Folks, this makes dreamwalking a gender-specific power. One wonders
if this thought projection is also a female of the species type of
thing. If so, it makes these females really powerful members of this
alien society. I even started thinking about a possible matriarchal
element. Think of it--what male of their species stands a chance
UNLESS there is some defense they have that we (and Max) do not know
of yet.
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-18-2000).]

crk
Member
Posts: 37 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-18-2000 08:37 AM

MIND CONTROL V. BIOLOGICAL INFLUENCE
pheromones: At first I would have said no since we have seen no
evidence to suggest Michael had been influenced by Tess at all.
However, after reviewing the ep I saw that she and Michael spend no
time together in this episode. Also, maybe it's something she can
control. If Max's reaction to her is because of alien pheromones
then perhaps it is some form of alien puberty that he will
eventually be able to control. (I hope for Liz's sake)
mind control: Just because Tess shows no knowledge of her impact on
Max doesn't mean she's not aware. She's obviously working with
malevolent intentions. If she does have the ability to manipulate
Max or others I would wonder why it seems to be sexually driven. If
she's an agent for the government then why not use her mind control
and deliver Max to them. I also wonder if Tess can also
control/influence human minds. It seemed suspicious that the bio
teacher would choose Max over Liz to be Tess' lab partner. Liz is
supposedly the better student.
MAX'S VISIONS
If Tess can use mind control on Max then I would think she could
cause the vision of the pod. Unless that vision was a memory Max
already possessed and it was only within the proximity of Tess that
it resurfaced.
JanetMg: I liked your idea about Tess' abilities being an advanced
form of dreamwalking. If you're good enough why should the subject
have to be asleep for the dreamwalker to infiltrate their
subconscious.
THE PODS
I tend to believe that the vision Max had of the young girl with the
curly hair in the pod is/was Tess. Whether this vision is from Max's
memory or Tess' remains to be seen.
TESS/ NASEDO
I for one believe do not believe Tess is Nasedo.(maybe I'm wrong)
But I agree with several of you who suggested that Tess must have
been found and reared by the government (Pierce?). Hey, for all we
know this alien hunting thing is a full time job. She probably is
sent into situations where she 'ferrets' out the alien and Pierce
takes care of business. Whereas Nasedo had been on the reservation
when River Dog was a young man. I believe Nasedo was the
shape-shifter who impersonated the Dr. Was it to keep the alien trio
from getting two orbs together and communicating with their people
or to protect them from Pierce? Either way I don't think that was
Tess.
THE HARDINGS
Mr. Harding definitely creeps me out (sort of American Beautyish
toward Isabel and Liz). Both he and Tess creep me out and I have to
wonder what sort of act they're putting on.(too many plastered-on
smiles at really awkward moments that gave me the idea Michael did
not have the worst upbringing of the group.) The Hardings definitely
aren't what they seem. Unlike the Evans where Max and Isabel hide
their true nature from their parnets, Mr. Harding must be aware of
Tess' abilities. Else how would she explain the miraculously mended
objet d'art.
BEHRALL: I didn't even notice the potatoes!LOL
Supposedly the "gang" set up at a deserted warehouse near the
Hardings' house. Other threads have pointed out what a nice deserted
warehouse it was: electricity, furniture, lamps. Good point about
why no one seemed concerned about other surveillance equipment. If
they (whoever they might be) could afford one of those cameras they
could probably afford more, although I would think they'd have the
brains to hide a black camera somewhere less overt than a white
fridge. There must be better hiding places!
dddawn347: It never would have occurred to me that the government
thinks Max is Nasedo. That could explain why the photos were only of
Max. Thank you, I was stuck on that one all night.

Elliott Posts: 799 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-18-2000 10:04 AM

The issue of how much free will Max actually had/has in his visions
and sexual behavior is an interesting one. Again, I think the show
may be trying to have it both ways here. There is a hint of Vulcan
estrus here, like Spock in 'Amok Time' in the 'Star Trek' universe.
It is so erotic and tantalizing to see a very rational and
controlled character lose all reason, especially in matters sexual.
Watching Max 'get horizontal' is a voyeuristic thrill I have enjoyed
this season. And I think the creative team has liked teasing us with
this.
But I personally do think that Max has been 'controlled' and has
somehow had these visions planted or suggested to him. And though
Tess's behavior last night suggested that she was innocent of the
effect she was having on him, I think we have to remember that until
the end of the episode we were expected to assume she was the human
daughter of a government agent. She would have had no way to plant
such visions. As an alien, she certainly has. Or Nasedo does, and
perhaps he (if he is not Tess) has been planting these visions in
Max's head for his own reasons. Either way, at this point in the
ROSWELL chronology, I don't trust Tess at all.
At first glance, the idea that dream-walking is sex-specific to
females seems retrograde to me. But I suppose it can make for
interesting television in future episodes if some powers are
specific to either males or females. Is shape-shifting strictly
male, for instance?
And anyway, the concept of sexual heat or estrus is usually only
current in the animal world and is generally specific to females, so
the fact that Max is/has been in heat, suggests the show might be
willing to gender-bend a bit, which would be nice.

peanut_and_me Posts: 139 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-18-2000 10:35 AM

I'm not sure who I feel worse for... Max or Liz.
I was so totally disappointed at first about Max/Tess, but the guy
looked so distraught about what was going on. Especially that scene
in the rain with Tess. Speaking out loud all that he rationally and
emotionally knows to be true about belonging with Liz. But I had to
wonder a few times if he was trying to warn Tess away or if he was
trying to convince himself that was how he SHOULD feel. I almost
doubted him for a second.
And Liz. I'm one of those people who wished she did smack him upside
the head. I mean, it wasn't even 5 seconds after he walked out the
door that he kissed Tess. I wish Max had gone after her when she
went running up the stairs crying. She's got to loose the reseve
sometime. I think she deserves to unleash a little. I haven't met
anyone that under control in my life.
Can someone tell me what Liz mumbles at the end when they are all in
the warehouse. Max says soemthing about putting herself in danger
and thanks, then she says something. It didn't look like she was
fully prepared to forgive him.

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-18-2000 11:48 AM

NIGHTOWL: I agree on the issue of timing...if we are talking alien
estrus then it makes sense. We really know very little alien
physiology at this point in the storyline, and we know NOTHING about
alien mating.
crk: In terms of why Michael isn't attracted to
Tess...hmmm...perhaps for the same reason that Max isn't attracted
to Isabel?
JanetMG: Liked your idea of thought projection = advanced
dreamwalking. Would really like you to speak to my last post about
what gender specific powers might mean for social structure & mating
process!!!!!!
LSS

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-18-2000 08:30 PM

Peanut_and_me:
Max thanks her for having faith in him. Then she says something like
"It took faith..a lot of it." I'm sure of those last words--it is
the first two I just can't remember. Hope that helps!
Elliot: A gender bender?
LSS

JanetMG Posts: 172 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-18-2000 09:10 PM

LSS--Gender-specific powers leading to matriarchal society, huh?
Couldn�t you ask me an easy one?

My first thought is let's get Sheri Tepper to write an episode. My
second thought is more along the lines of Marion Zimmer Bradley and
the Darkover novels. It seems that Tess may have had some training
that Isabel (and Max and Michael) haven't. (In the last scene, she
also arguably used some form of telekinesis, which I don�t think
we�ve seen Isabel use.) Other than Nacedo's shape-shifting trick, we
really don't know what powers a trained male of their species
possesses. If the women really do have greater powers on balance, it
could well lead to matriarchy. One thing that's fascinated me (but
not the writers) since the beginning is where MM&I set boundaries on
the use of their powers in a society where the prevailing
ethics/morals/traditions don't account for such powers. In the
Darkover books, the powers differ, but most people with laran seem
to be able to shield their minds. To help out those who can't, there
are strong social mores against uninvited mind reading and/or
telepathic compulsion--social mores that grew out of the chaos that
existed when people did try to control others (mentally or through
the use of other powers). Forcing your way into someone�s mind
without permission is considered akin to rape. Essentially the
powers and their distribution affected the entire structure of the
civilization.
If the powers do differ on a gender basis, I think the likelihood of
a matriarchy developing really does depend on how the differences
balance out and the knowledge each gender has about its own and the
other's powers. The (admittedly few) theories I've seen about why so
many early societies on earth appear to have been matriarchal tend
be based more on the knowledge factor, particularly knowledge about
reproduction, than the power one. If the powers are essentially
equal (either through defenses or counter attacks) and the knowledge
is similar, then I'd think there would be something close to
equality. This seems to be born out by Max�s flash to what appeared
to be four pods, presumably MMI&T. Having two of each gender could
be a sign of equality�you�d think there would be more of either the
dominant gender (because they�re deemed more important by the
society) or the subservient gender (to serve the dominant one).
On a completely unrelated vein, has anyone watched Max�s flashback
visions in slow mo? In the first one at the Crashdown, after he & T
stare at the symbol (that folks on the sci fi threads previously
speculated could represent the pods), there is a frame or two of
what looks like four partially transparent pods. The camera then
cuts to what looks kind of like a yellowish egg-shaped thing with
slime all over it & a flower(?) with 3 petals (but seems to be
missing a fourth petal) on top of it. The egg thing is not
transparent like the pods. What is it? (Is it an egg?) Is the flower
symbolic of the 4th pod being ripped away from the other three? To
the left, there are some blurs that look vaguely humanoid. Also,
when Max kisses Tess in the rain, the vision includes a frame with
the egg thing and a reddish-orange (adult-sized?) humanoid nearby.
What do you think, folks? Did these flashback events occur on the
ship? On the home world? Somewhere here? If on the ship, the hybrid
theory may be less likely.
Tess & Ed�s relationship�this morning I thought maybe she was a pawn
because she seemed surprised. When I rewatched the episode today, I
watched their interactions more closely and it almost seemed to me
that Tess was in charge. Given the distinction pointed out earlier
between the flashbacks and the fantasies, maybe she was surprised
only by the flashbacks. How do you guys interpret the balance of
power between the two?
When kissing Liz, Max had visions of Liz's past and she saw his.
Were Max's Tess-induced flashbacks Tess' past or his own? I know
their pasts seem to be connected--but isn't there a difference
between connecting w/someone so thoroughly that you experience their
past and their feelings, rather than remembering something from your
own past when suddenly confronted by someone from it?
Finally, in the last Max picture Liz looked at, wasn�t Max wearing
the same outfit he was wearing in the photo that was burned in Blind
Date?

[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 04-18-2000).]

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-18-2000 10:00 PM

Janet
Love Bradley's Darkover series and also Tepper's novels--both
struggle with gender roles within social structures. Someday we
ought to talk off board about Women/Women authors/SF.
THE ETHICS AND MORALITY OF POWERS. As for the boundaries our
podsters set on their powers. I'm not sure that the boundaries stem
from ethical/moral considerations. Isabel is afraid of discovery
while Michael's powers are spotty at best. The only one I see giving
voice repeatedly to moral considerations is Max. It is Max who feels
that dreamwalking is an invasion (but Isabel does it anyway). It is
Max who will not share the interior glimpses of Liz because they're
private (but Michael wants to know anyway and goes and makes out
with maria to see if he can generate some visions of his own). Can
you think of one time that Isabel or Michael considered the moral
implications of their powers?
THE PODS. Fascinating about the slow motion pod scenes--I'll have to
look and get back to you.
THE VISIONS. Very few of the visions Max has with Tess are
"flashbacks" -- perhaps only the one where they kiss in the rain?
The visions (other than that of the pods) in which Tess and Max are
together, do not seem to be the "past"...Tess is grown and appears
as we know her on the dramatic stage. Either they are complete
fantasies (i.e. they have never and will never happen) or else they
are glimpses of the future (in which case we are infering
precognition). Or perhaps they are meant simply to convey a
message??? Perhaps Tess is conveying images of "a" future??? One in
which she stands at Max's side as mate? If this latter is the case
they these visions (of them standing against the symbols) become a
type of persuasion.
And I do feel strongly that if Tess is imposing those steamy
fantasies on Max, then she is guilty of a type of mental sexual
assault.
TESS' ACTIONS. You are absolutely right. I've watched that episode
around five times now and am struck by all the clues we are given
concerning an uneasy undercurrent in Tess' characterization. And Mr.
Harding reminded me of something wearing a "human costume" rather
than acting human. Even his jerky movements suggested an uneasy fit.
And did you notice how Liz was aware that Max was outside BEFORE he
appeared at the door? (At least I think that is what was going on.)
She turns around and looks out to the living room.
LSS

BellaKai Posts: 78 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-18-2000 10:58 PM

Love these SF threads.
My question is: if Tess can fix a broken sculpture then why can't
she fix a broken down car? I tend to agree with Max, Tess was there
because she was setting up/manipulating the scene and him.

Breathless Posts: 145 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-18-2000 11:15 PM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS:

And did you notice how Liz was aware that Max was outside BEFORE
he appeared at the door? (At least I think that is what was going
on.) She turns around and looks out to the living room.
LSS

I also noticed that. Max arrives at the house while Liz is still at
the table with the Hardings. Liz turns as if she can sense his
presence. Mr. Harding interperts her actions to mean she is thinking
about the broken statue since she is looking in that general
direction. I am certain that Liz could feel Max near her.
If that is true, then it opens up more questions. Have the
connections that Max and Liz have shared somehow changed her?
Heightened her awareness of him?
So many interesting possibilities.

JanetMG Posts: 172 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-19-2000 04:35 AM

LSS--I don't think I have seen Michael or Isabel consider the
implications of their powers. Max also seems to have considered the
ethics of healing. The flashback scenes seem to be quick flashes in
the middle of the visions. Even if Tess is causing the daydream
visions, she or the daydream visions may only be "triggering"
(involuntarily) the flashbacks. As for the visions--if she creates
them, how does she know about the symbols map? Her reproduction of
the map in the vision could support the collective unconscious
theory. It could mean that she's actually able to plunder memories,
but I don't think Max has "seen" the desert floor map--Michael has
and possibly Liz in SH (anyone remember?). You'd think it would be
more effective to plunder and use memories/visions of the target,
rather than taking them from his friend or girlfriend. If Liz saw
the map in SH, did Tess get it through Liz's connection with Max? On
the other hand, the map may just be signicant enough that she's run
across it in whatever training she's had. Does anyone know if the
desert map in Max's vision is exactly the same as the one in
Michael's?
I did notice Liz's behavior at the table. Also, at the Crashdown,
she seemed to sense Max outside. She was in a well lit place and he
was outside in the dark and rainy night a few feet away from the
door when she started heading toward the door. I would think it
would have been very hard for her to actually see him at first.
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 04-19-2000).]

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-19-2000 04:39 AM

Breathless:
On the SF of SH thread we raised the possibility that Max's
physical/emotional interaction with Liz somehow changed her (we
called this the "altered Liz" theory). If this is true then it what
we saw in that scene might be evidence of a close tie that now
exists between M and L.
AND if this is the case then such a tie might do two things: 1) it
might furnish the writers with a physical reason why Max is able to
break through this "attraction" he feels for Tess; and 2) it might
help explain why Liz is willing to have faith in Max when other
girls might have thrown a Tabasco bottle at him!
I really like the altered Liz theory for a number of different
reasons. But truthfully, Liz does not have to be "altered" to have
sensed Max--remember that earlier ("Missing") Max explains that when
things get intense they "feel" and "see" things? I would say that
the intensity we see in TLV is enought to evoke a closer connection
between M/L!!!
One last thought: I my review of Blind Date, I speculated as to
whether Max was in any way causing Liz to see those visions (I
mean--think of their nature...the most poignant points in their
relationship...at a time when he was is competition with two other
males for Liz). If he (even on an unconscious level) was doing this
then it might mean that thought projection is a type of power our
podsters all have, but just don't know yet. But then, I kind of like
it being something that is female-specific...we'll just have to wait
and see.
LSS

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-19-2000 05:12 AM

crk: "I also wonder if Tess can also control/influence human minds.
It seemed suspicious that the bio teacher would choose Max over Liz
to be Tess' lab partner. Liz is supposedly the better student." That
whole sequence reminded me of the similar scene in SH. The science
teacher saying a line that applies to what's happening in the scene.
I know in TLV, the word "combustible" really stood out. I think the
teacher is human, but I find it interesting that in his own little
way he's trying to keep Liz and Max apart, maybe because he doesn't
want such a good student (Liz) to be distracted from her studies
(his comment in SH). Pairing Max with Tess does seem pretty meddling
though.
JanetMG: "When kissing Liz, Max had visions of Liz's past and she
saw his. Were Max's Tess-induced flashbacks Tess' past or his own?"
I just assumed they were Tess's memories because of how we've seen
the flashes previously. Michael saw Maria's memories, Max Liz's, and
vice versa, except some of the alien memories can't really be the
individual's memories. Bookish and Rosta brought up the collective
unconscious idea on the other SF threads. Anyway, something that
just struck me, if they're Tess's memories, how can she see herself
in the pod, same goes for some of Michaels visions in The Balance.
There's a time paradox here. If they're collective memories (SH
visions), I've been assuming that the images develop in the brain as
it forms, and are not inserted after the fact. So how do Micahel,
Tess and maybe Max have third person "memories" of themselves before
the emerge from the pods? If they're inserted memories, "someone"
would have had to put them into their brain's pretty late, even
after emergence? It could just be a cinnematographic story telling
device. I don't know. Ideas anyone?
LSS: "And Mr. Harding reminded me of something wearing a "human
costume" rather than acting human. Even his jerky movements
suggested an uneasy fit." I was thinking Pierce, Nacedo and Harding
could be one and the same (all the SS), but I agree with you that
Harding seemed uncomfortable in his skin. So that means he can't be
the SS, 'cause that character is incredibly, and believably,
comfortable in anyone's skin.

JanetMG Posts: 172 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-19-2000 06:50 AM

Of course, the Liz memories were in the third person, too. Didn't
someone mention on prior threads that some of the flashes Liz saw in
SH could have been first person by the orb or whoever hid it? Is
that person/orb planting all the visions?

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-19-2000 07:07 AM

JanetMG
I am at a bit of a loss at this point in the storyline to explain
the orb's link to our trio's physiology. It seemed clear to me
before that there was a definite link. But we've seen nothing since
that. Moreover, we have been told that the orbs are communicators.
Now either that is a lie, or else it is the truth and that is all
that they do, or else the orb works on more than one level of
communication (verbal and biological). Or perhaps the orb can
receive messages and transmit them mentally. Gosh the sky is the
speculative limit here (or perhaps we should infer beyond the sky?)
While I love this show to distraction, the writers have not done
well in the area of continuity between episodes. (Gosh--we still
don't know what happened to those parents that morning--hope Max
did't wave his Genie-Samantha-alien powers and make them disappear!)
LSS

HollyLou Posts: 270 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-19-2000 07:10 AM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS:

Max thanks her for having faith in him. Then she says something
like "It took faith..a lot of it."
LSS

I think that's pretty close. "I went on faith..a lot of it. But you
still kissed her, Max." Then something about how there's really
nothing that can explain away that. Of course in the next scene we
learn that Tess is an alien. So I'm think Max is in the clear with
Liz.

Watching one of the visions that Max had of Tess I noticed that it
looks just like a promo we saw of Four Square when Max is grabbing
Tess and is probably demanding to know who she is! She is wearing a
blue shirt and her hair is loose, wavy and brushed out like it was
at Isabel's locker in TLV. Does that prove anything? I can't seem to
think this through today!!

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-19-2000 07:19 AM

Oh dear--if it takes place in 4 square then we have one of two
things:
1) precognition, or
2) a budget saving device
It is things like this that frustrate serious SF analysis!!! Then
again, maybe stories work on levels of which even their writers are
unaware!!! It can work for us as precog even if it was simply
skimping on their part!!!
LSS

peanut_and_me Posts: 139 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-19-2000 10:22 AM

I think Tess plays the inocent a little too well. Either that or we
have to go with the whole someone else is planting the visions in
Max's head. There are those scenes in the desert where Max and Tess
are holding hands, looking down at the "map". They are both the age
they are now. It couldn't have been a flashback b/c it never
happened. Although we now have the topic of whether it's
precognition.
The way a smile and a look evokes the images, makes me think she's
putting them there.

BehrAll Posts: 188 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-19-2000 10:44 AM

quote:

Originally posted by peanut_and_me:

The way a smile and a look evokes the images, makes me think she's
putting them there.

I think there are two levels to Tess' psychic interference with Max,
deliberate and incidental (similar idea as mind control and
biological imperative, but from a different perspective).
Deliberate, because she's obviously making a serious play for him,
but also incidental, because I think there are some depths to this
connection that she did not expect.
Just look at her behaviour: sometimes she looks at him really
knowingly, other times she seems a little unsure of herself or of
what's happening. I think that Tess is in for more than she (or any
of the forces she is allied with) bargained for.

bren86
Junior Member
Posts: 9 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-19-2000 12:13 PM

I think Peanut_and_me made a very good point in saying that the
flashbacks where Max and Tess are looking at the map (or Michael's
Balance visions or Iz's visions in the upcoming ep) are very
different from the supposedly "memory" flashbacks.
I also agree with JanetMG in that unless the flashes are cinematic
devices and we're not supposed to pick them apart :-) then someone
who was present in 1947 to see both Max and Tess in the pods (yes
there was a guy and a girl) then someone is either planting memories
in their head OR *they're seeing the visions of another alien close
by or that they've associated with*. Remember how Max said when they
found Michael he was on a hill standing by himself? What if Michael
"woke up" before Max? Max and Tess could be seeing Michael's visions
(is he in the science classroom or not?) or nasedo's, if you go with
the theory that nasedo raised Tess. (especially when you look at
next week's promos when max asks tess, "how many more victims are
there going to be?" implying that Tess knows about nasedo's killing)
the vase thing I think proves Mr. Harding has powers too, although
technically he could be Pierce (trying to eradicate other aliens to
hide his own secret) I think he's nasedo since he and tess seem very
close and he is unnaturally suspicious of Isabel (probably because
he knows who she is). See my secret clues thread for why else I
think Mr H is nasedo. (photo box etc)
as I say in my other thread, there is a chance "the alien hunter"
could be the guy at the end of blind date but that would be really
way-out. I think it was nasedo following michael (since he left
clues for them at the cave in the woods and at river dog's cave to
begin with) though why he would jeapordize michael's secret by
leaving a burning photo and a burning symbol on the lawn of the
library! is beyond me.
I don't think the pods have to do with sex and I think also some of
you are letting the spoilers get into non-spoiler threads ;-)
Topolsky seemed to know what she was talking about when she said
they were communicators (and this also goes with nasedo burying one
of them in the desert--remember goatee guy/nasedo stumbling upon max
and liz?) and the communicator giving off light and a resonance
(unless it was why max and liz were getting horny but that would be
rather comedic wouldn't it?)
I don't think the fact that Katims said Max and Michael couldn't
dream-walk necessarily means it's gender specific though that's
certainly a possibility. (remember michael is fairly weak) I also
tend to wonder why max has not discovered other powers like
shape-shifting since he seems to be the strong one of the group. But
of course, he hasn't had a teacher. I know I'm straying into the
x-files here, but how come Max and co have the same bodies as
humans? but of course they never get sick for some reason (which max
said) so no one really had a chance to find out until liz took max's
cells. As for mr h not "fitting" his skin, I think that was just the
actor. If you slow-mo the nasedo transformation sequences, I tend to
think that 1) you briefly see nasedo's real alien appearance which
is non-humanoid 2) and then he perfectly molds himself into another
body
and of course, obv nasedo walks around "smootly" in others' bodies
because the actors playing nasedo are comfortable with their own
bodies! :-) so I think we're wasting energy discussing the "fitting"
or natural appearance as that could vary.
also about the memories, some of them are obv. the characters
"imposing" themselves over something they've imagined. I mean, that
describes all of michael's balance memories as he sees himself in
the cocoon and also the images where you see the three little Max Iz
Mich. morphing into the big ones. that's kind of like dreamwalking
except isabel is aware of what she's doing. but my question is, how
the hell does michael have the vision of the geodome in marathon?
has he been there before? the fact that isabel recognizes the
necklace (or at least the symbol) that's in marathon makes me think
that she has seen the symbol before after she "woke up" or when she
was back on her alien planet so it seems to me nasedo planted
memories of the geodome (remember river dog said nasedo was friends
with atherton) and might be also planting pre-pod-waking (LOL)
images (such as the crash) in their minds. I tend to think that
nasedo was awake when the ship crashed and the others (whoever they
were) were still in pods/capsules like superman (of course this
*has* to be since max etc are still teenagers in 1999 and don't
remember being around for a really long time). so nasedo just hung
around earth doing whatever for a long time until max etc woke up
and then he started following them. or as I said earlier, nasedo
could have "gave" images to river dog (which isn't as likely since
river dog doesn't spout off at the mouth about crashes and
communicators) and river dog in turn radiated them to max and co.
But I think for liz to have a flash with max (a flash max could not
have seen) that means someone (prolly nasedo since he seems to be
the chaperone of the crashed ship) is planting images or it's just a
cinematic effect which would be a fairly significant suspension of
belief.
what the heck is nasedo waiting for? he knows michael really wants
to find him and nasedo is becoming interested enough to get close to
max and speak to him and kill michael's foster dad for him. Nasedo
could have done all he needed to do in the period when topolsky had
left and the new FBI bad guys/Hubble were not around yet. But no, he
just likes taking pictures of the gang and leaving them clues to
figure out. :-) Ah the frustration of suspense. We have to wait for
may sweeps for nasedo to take action.

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-19-2000 12:54 PM

quote:

Originally posted by JanetMG:
Of course, the Liz memories were in the third person, too. Didn't
someone mention on prior threads that some of the flashes Liz saw
in SH could have been first person by the orb or whoever hid it?
Is that person/orb planting all the visions?

I'm fairly comfortable with their real memories being in third
person. In a sense we view their story in third person, but I am
flumoxed by them seeing themselves in the pods, i.e., Michael's
vision and now Max's in TLV. The orb generated ones/collective
unconscious ones that predate their existense (my assumption) are
explainable as well, but how do you have a collective unconscious
memory that occurs after you're already in existense (in the pod),
but prior to your emergence from the pod (thus a normal memory -
i.e., the little kid memories). Unless they were aware of each other
from within their pods, and don't "remember" it until the person
they're physically connecting with "sees" it. I need to watch TLV
again before I even think about the precognitive visions.

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-19-2000 04:35 PM

Bren86:
I only have a few minutes...but let me address two of the issues you
raised.
1) How could Michael have a flash of the dome? There seems to be a
type of vision that is object induced. Whether we are talking
residual images or something else is unclear. But in "Missing" when
Max picks up the CD, he "sees" Kyle. When Michael picks up the key
he "sees" the dome. Obviously these are not "memories" for neither
the CD or the key have "memories". But what IS implied is that under
certain conditions objects can retain residual association with an
object with which it has come in prior contact--I'm thinking serious
suspension of belief here folks.
2) Gender Specific Powers. I don't know if I am persuaded but it is
a possibility. Your point about Michael's inconsistent use of his
powers is well taken--but the fact is that Max has shown excellent
mastery of his powers. There is no reason (other than ethical/moral)
why Max should not be able to dreamwalk. Isabel could teach him. But
Katims said he can't. Why? Gender specific powers are the only thing
I could come up with...UNLESS powers vary from one alien to another?

LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 04-19-2000).]

Leneba Posts: 192 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-19-2000 06:31 PM

I've been pondering the whole predestined mate--mysterious
attraction theory, especially in light of the preview with Isabel
and Michael apparantly together.
kspacegirl said--
"i think that isabel and max are related... and that explains why no
attraction exists between them... but even in the promo for next
week tess tells isabel about some greater "plan" that exists for
"them"... which follows into a scene of michael and isabel
snogging... why havent michael and isabel been attracted? maybe
because it was suppressed by them because they were unsure of the
appropriateness of their relations."
kspacegirl, your comments, along with some other folk's theories
have me wondering about the awkward situation that Michael and
Isabel will apparantly find themselves in.
We don't have absolute proof that Max and Isabel are in fact blood
relatives. Same goes for Michael. However, even though Isabel
recently referred to them both as her brothers, we have some pretty
clear indications that Michael is different from Max and Isabel in
more than just the legal non-sib sense. This issue was brought up in
the SF of SH thread. Michael has trouble controlling his powers
where Max and Isabel do not. Also, according to Max's story of when
they first emerged from the pods, Michael kept himself apart from
the two of them. He had great difficulty trusting them. He didn't
feel the same "as long as we stay together we'll be OK" feeling that
Max expressed he shared with Isabel. That's largely why Max and
Isabel ended up being raised as siblings and Michael was left out.
I'm going to combine this with another idea raised in the SF of SH
thread--the timing of the pods "hatching". Despite the lack of
proof, I'm willing to believe that Max and Isabel are really brother
and sister (or whatever is equivalent for aliens) and that Michael
is unrelated. I think that Max and Isabel's instant, instinctual
trust of one another supports this. Maybe, because of the stressful
situation and unpredictable events surrounding the crash, Michael
emerged from his pod off-schedule. If a month had passed between
M&I's emergence and Michael's (and presumedly Tess, if she's the
same as them), they would never have known of his existance and
maybe would not have reunited with him until much later. Isabel
wouldn't think of him as her brother and be inhibited by incest
taboos. Hence the lack of sexual attraction between the two of them
(Michael and Isabel) up to this point. That would also account for
Tess and Max's inexplicable attraction. The theoretical alien
pheremones can exert their full power. If they are "meant" to be
together (and of course the Dreamgirl in me is closing her eyes,
plugging her ears and singing "la la la"), there are no sibling
feelings to overcome.
That brings us to the question of whether Tess was controlling Max
or if this was a natural unconscious attraction. Certainly, Max
feels controlled, but is it biological or mental, instinctual or
deliberate? I don't have any good theories on this. Tess seems to
know a lot more about them than they know about her, but does she
know everything? I think she only has part of the answers and may
not be fully in control of what is happening between her and Max
(yeah, RIGHT! says internal Dreamgirl).
My last thought has to do with the orbs as communicators. I maintain
that while they may be communicators, we don't know what they are
intended to communicate, and between whom. The general consensus is
that they are meant to send/receive messages between earth and
M,M&I's people. I think, as I mentioned in a previous SF of thread
(I forget which one...last week's?) that the orb(s) may contain
information intended for our trio, such as alien DNA or the
equivalent, or other important knowledge. Or maybe (as I guessed in
SF of SH, I believe) the orbs themselves are sentient or contain an
alien "awareness". After all, in the visions that Liz had of the orb
being buried, it looked like the events were taking place from the
ORB's perspective.
Side note here. Did anyone else see the special on PBS last night? I
think it was called Life Beyond Earth. I only caught the last half
hour, but it was very interesting!

kspacegirl Posts: 182 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-19-2000 07:07 PM

leneba... (et al...)
i am pretty sure what you are suggesting about michael "hatching"
early... but i am not entirely clear- i missed the previous
discussions about this...
are you attributing michael's awkward handling of his powers to
insufficient incubation time due to premature pod emergence
triggered by the trauma of the crash?
if so... that is an interesting theory... to which i would also
suggest that the reinforcement of his lack of a nurturing, secure
environment to develop in also contributed to his insecurity. (alien
nature vs nurture!)
here's an idea for why michael and isabel are together in what
appears to be a vision...
tess is purposefully misleading michael and isabel from associating
with earthlings... or tempting them to promote alien procreation so
that they will produce pure alien offspring. maybe she is a racist
and doesn't want to see an alien lower itself to be with a mere
human!!
silly, i know...

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-19-2000 07:27 PM

Actually--
The idea that not all aliens might be as accepting of humankind as
our trio is not illogical at all. Interesting that you use the term
"racist" for science fiction has frequently used aliens to address
the issue of racism in human societies.
If we look at Tess' exchanges with Alex and Liz (I don't think we've
seen much T/Maria) you will note that they have tended to be a bit
on the brutal side. In TLV she sits down in front of Liz effectively
cutting her off from I and M. And her attitude toward Liz when Liz
shows up at Tess' house is not much better. It looks like Tess does
not do well around the human element of our gang. I can see this
very easily translating into a "your species is not as significant
as mine" type of attitude. To be fair to Tess, I don't think we have
this yet--but it would not surprise me if we see a variant of this
in the future. Michael comes near to this at times, but one suspects
he speaks more out of insecurity than of a true dislike for humans.
With Tess I'm just not sure. And as far as Mr. Harding goes, I
wouldn't turn my back on him -- it was hard to see any real emotion
or compassion in his visage at all.
LSS
LSS

Alienwatcher
Junior Member
Posts: 16 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-19-2000 08:09 PM

Lot to address here:
1. I think Mr. Harding is Nasedo. He's just to strange. Somehow Tess
awoke from the pods later than Max, Michael and Isabelle and Nasedo
found her and they have been searching for the others ever since.
Only when Max saved Liz and things started happening to the group
did flags somehow pop up to help Nasedo locate them. I think Tess
knows who Nasedo is and she is a little afraid of him. There were
times when both Isabelle and Liz were at the house that she seem
worried about Mr. Harding reactions and was ready to intervene. I
definately don't believe Tess has any government involvement.
2. I think it is alien pheromones that are attracting Max and Tess.
I don't think Tess is controlling Max's mind. She put herself close
to Max but she did seem a little surprised when he kissed her.
Although I'm sure she was very happy. Remember when she was talking
to Is about Max being taken she commented "I thought I felt him..."
I'm not sure she is entirely clear on what is going on but she
definately knows more than the others.
3. I don't think you can define Nasedo as good or evil. I think his
sole purpose is to protect the aliens by whatever means are
necessary. Since he is not human, I don't think he has any human
emotions therefore no conscience when it comes to killing people
that interfer or become a threat. Although, why hasn't he made
himself know to the aliens?
4. Anyone else find it strange that Liz would tell Tess that she is
in love with Max when the two of them have never said it to each
other? And yes, Breathless, I think Liz can feel Max and she knew he
was at the door. I also think Tess seemed sincere when Liz
confronted her. I think she realized the connection between the
them.

bren86
Junior Member
Posts: 9 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-19-2000 09:00 PM

As for Liz saying she was in love, I don't think it's weird at all.
Max did Tell Liz he loved her when he was "drunk?" in Blind Date and
Liz had the feeling what he was saying was true. He drew the heart,
remember? ;-)
As for Liz loving Max, puh-lease. :-) Girls are always the first to
fall in love and we've seen Liz's goo-goo eyes. Plus, when Max gets
in that wreck, she pretty much tells him she loves him and that's
even before they've become all gooey.

Kate6058 Posts: 1100 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-19-2000 09:27 PM

Why hello, everybody
These boards have been so messed up for the past three days that I
haven't been able to access this thread or a lot of the others until
now without my computer crashing or the internet freezing or
something like that. So...
First of all, I find it extremely hard to continue to discuss things
here since I know all the spoilers. My thoughts contain too many
assumptions based on what's going to happen that will probably
confuse/spoil the unspoiled who are closely following this thread. I
had the same problem watching TLV... I was extremely mad at Tess the
entire time because she tells such blatant lies... her entire life
could be a lie... see, here I go, I can't not get into spoilers!
About Max's visons. When he kisses Liz, he's feeling so much love
for her that he sees inside her and she sees things from his
past/future/whatever. When he kisses (or just looks at) Tess (blah,
ew, never again... please spare us), he sees himself with her only
holding hands, but the same symbols of the planet are also there...
what does this mean about Liz vs. Tess? If Max kissed a random girl
on the street, would he see visions? I don't think so... the point
is that there's something about Tess that makes the visions
appear... hmmmm. If it's because he loves Liz, then is there some
kind of connection to Tess that he doesn't know about?
The Healing. When Max healed Liz, what happened? If he hadn't healed
her and kissed her, would she have had visions like he had when he
kissed the possible alien Tess? I keep thinking of the look on Liz's
face when Max said he had a vision with her... and the look on Max's
when he realized what he'd done by telling her that. I want Max and
Liz to find out something about the healing/visions that makes her
special besides just a choice of Max's. I mean, the alien/human
pairing is one thing, but I still love the idea of Liz being
physically changed like she talked about at the beginning of Sexual
Healing.
Another thing... Max has never had a vision by just looking at Liz,
has he? I don't think so, unless I'm just forgetting something huge
right now... so that just tells me that there is something up with
Tess. Regardless of what spoiler info I know, I don't want ANYTHING
special to be going to with Max and Tess. Ugh. If she is an alien,
and there is something about her that Liz can never top, no matter
what Max chooses to do, that will just bother me. The writers have
to prove it to us through more than just words now... all this
sci-fi stuff going on around the couples can't be ignored.

Breathless Posts: 145 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-20-2000 12:20 AM

As suggested already, I believe that Liz was changed when Max healed
her. Maybe the healing process somehow bound them together.
In the Pilot, Max was able to make the connection to Liz, so that
she could see inside of him. Later, in Blind Date and Sexual Healing
she saw visions when they kissed. Remember, Maria and Michael have
been pretty hot and heavy, but Maria has never experienced any
visions. Michael has seen things inside of Maria (those cute little
red sneakers) but Maria has received nothing from inside of Michael.

The visions in both BD and SH could have been caused by outside
influences, Max was drunk in BD and unable to control his powers and
in SH the orb was possibly to blame. But when I watch the scene in
TLV when Max shows up at the Harding house, Liz can sense that he is
there. She is at the table and she slowly turns toward the front of
the house. She knows he's there. That indicates to me that Liz has
been physically changed by her contact with Max.
[This message has been edited by Breathless (edited 04-20-2000).]

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-20-2000 11:26 AM

Just testing something. Ignore this.

piyxis423 Posts: 68 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-20-2000 11:36 AM

Breathless--you make a good point---however didn't Maria tell
Micheal that the reason he saw things and she didnt was because he
was closed off emotionally?(or something along those lines) That in
my mind seems very reasonable. But, I could be wrong!

Kate6058 Posts: 1100 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-20-2000 12:07 PM

Breathless - That's what I'd like to believe happened.
But how do we explain the visions he had while kissing Tess?

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-20-2000 12:57 PM

Breathless, Kate, etc.
I too like the altered Liz theory. And until Maria has visions, I
think that we can argue for it logically. And should Maria and
Michael "do it" we can still argue for it (exchange of bodily
fluids).
Kate raised the issue of Tess--but Kate, Tess does not need to be
"altered" as she IS alien and thereby already connected to Max on a
biological level (like it or not!).
Breathless--I would only contest one item in your post. You said
that when drunk, Max did not have control of his powers. But I would
argue that he DID have control of them--it was just that his
inhibitions against their use were gone!
LSS

Kate6058 Posts: 1100 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-20-2000 01:14 PM

LSS -
I was trying to stay in the spirit of this thread, being that it's
non-spoiled, and talk about Tess like I really don't know anything
about her...
But, do the visions come because Max and Tess are aliens, or because
of a stonger force like love? If it's the alien thing, then that
would mean Liz was altered for sure when Max healed her, but if it's
not, then that means that Tess has something to do with love (that's
me talking again like I don't know what's going on)

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-20-2000 02:22 PM

Kate:
We are staying spoiler free -- I think.
We know Tess is "not of this earth" due to that last scene. And we
know that max has visions when he stares at and/or kisses Tess
(though we DO NOT know that Tess has visions when SHE kisses Max).
We know that Liz is "of this earth". And we know that both she and
Max have visions of each other.
We know that Maria is "of this earth". But only Michael has visions
when he kisses Maria--maria does not have visions.
OKAY--we may be on to something here. From the info we have right
now we can hypothesize that only Max and Liz have visions that are
two way????? IF that remains the same in the coming episodes, then
you have the grounds for a unique visionary relationship between
M/L. Moreover, that relationship need not be based on being
"altered" but on the strong emotional bond connecting M/L.
Ohhhh...I like that...I don't know if that is where the storyline
will go...but I like it!
LSS

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-20-2000 04:33 PM

LSS: "a) Mental Control. Is Tess intentionally influencing Max? Max
thinks she is, but can he be trusted in his perception? Did you see
any evidence that Tess was aware of what was going on (other than on
the level of sexual attraction)?"
IMO the first vision Max has is a surprise to Tess. It's not an
optimal time or place to test to see if Max is receptive to visions.
Right from when she walks up to the Crashdown's bar, he's staring at
her - note that she's wearing a red shirt.
1. First image - map on the desert floor. Front and center is the 4
pod hieroglyph with Max and Tess standing right adjacent to two of
the pod glyphs. Tess is wearing a black shirt, and the blue jacket.
The vision then looks beyond them to the rest of the map.
(Precognitive vision or alternative-future vision)
2. Black hand print (vision of the past)
3. Tess in pod (vision of the past)
4. Black hand print (vision of the past)
[See Max again]
5. Back to desert and T wearing the blue jacket, M&T holding hands.
(Precognitive vision or alternative-future vision)
6. Ship/cave/building interior. See 4 pods. Structure is very
organic. No sharp lines or edges. Could be a ship, because it sure
looks like stars and a planet up in the top of the image (vision of
the past)
7. JanetMG : "The camera then cuts to what looks kind of like a
yellowish egg-shaped thing with slime all over it & a flower(?) with
3 petals (but seems to be missing a fourth petal) on top of it. The
egg thing is not transparent like the pods. What is it? (Is it an
egg?) Is the flower symbolic of the 4th pod being ripped away from
the other three?"
I think it is a pod, just differently lit. I thought the "flower"
was a beating heart, but it also could have been the start of
emergence (vision of the past)
I think this was a spontaneous flash on Max's part that might be
precognitive. Tess is referring to this connection when she says to
Is that "I thought I felt him." She knows he saw into her mind, but
I don't think she knows what he saw.
When Max rushes out to kiss Liz, Tess actively tests to see whether
she can make contact.
1. White flash,
2. Tess in a red shirt,
3. White flash,
4. Tess in a red shirt
5. White flash.
It's almost like she follows him into the back of the crashdown with
her mind, and then she makes the connection. There's the
"precognitive" vision of them about to hold hands in the desert (T
in black shirt, blue jacket), two more white flashes during this
sequence�then she's kissing him in the red shirt in the back of the
Crashdown. Obviously Max was kissing Liz, but it seems like Tess
becomes Liz to Max. I can't tell if Tess's hand movement to Max's
face is involuntary on her part, or if it was something Liz was
actually doing. However, Tess is definitely aware that Max is spying
on her at the end of the scene.
The lab fantasy. Tess looks back at Max's bench, and she causes the
bunson burner's flame to flare (definitely telekenesis). Is this
Tess's fantasy that she forces on Max? Or is this a mutual fantasy
caused by their biological imperative. Doesn't seem to fit with any
of the visions except the kiss in the back of the Crashdown.
The second vision when Max kisses Tess by her car. You see the white
flashes again, which IMO are indicative of Tess doing some active
telepathy. These are all visions from the past.
1. Tess in the pod
2. Adult with pod goop hanging off of him. Yep JanetMG, I'm assuming
this to be Nacedo/the adult alien. If an adult alien is all slimed
up it makes sense to assume he came out of a pod, then the pods seem
more like stasus chambers than incubators.
3. Michael's stars - I believe it is the same image from the
Balance, another sign of the collective unconscious.
JanetMG: "What do you think, folks? Did these flashback events occur
on the ship?
On the home world? Somewhere here?"
I can't tell. If it's on the ship, it's a big ship. You'ed think
more people would have been aware of it when it crahsed. I'm struck
by the organic-ness of all the structures. Seems to be a new trend
in a lot of SF movies and TV.
JanetMG: "If on the ship, the hybrid theory may be less likely."
Agreed. I also don't get why they sent children in a ship in
"stasus" pods. I can see it as a mechanism to acculturate your
species correctly, but you really are trusting on the goodwill of
the dominant species of the planet you go to. Children are so
defenseless.
JanetMG: "Tess & Ed's relationship-this morning I thought maybe she
was a pawn because she seemed surprised. When I rewatched the
episode today, I watched their interactions more closely and it
almost seemed to me that Tess was in charge. Given the distinction
pointed out earlier between the flashbacks and the fantasies, maybe
she was surprised only by the flashbacks. How do you guys interpret
the balance of power between the two?"
Overall, she seemed scared of Ed to me. Any ideas on the importance
of the Buddha statue? The repeated reactions and references to it
seemed so over the top.
JanetMG: "As for the visions--if she creates them, how does she know
about the symbols map? Her reproduction of the map in the vision
could support the collective unconscious theory. It could mean that
she's actually able to plunder memories, but I don't think Max has
"seen" the desert floor map--Michael has and possibly Liz in SH
(anyone remember?)?"
Liz hasn't seen it, but the desert floor map in the Balance is
pratically identical to the cave wall and Max's drawing. Tabascocat
did a long post about the map in the SF of the Balance thread. There
are some minor inconsistencies, but I think we're supposed to assume
they're identical.
JanetMG: "Does anyone know if the desert map in Max's vision is
exactly the same as the one in Michael's?"
No it's not. I think all the symbols are there, but they've been
moved around. The four embryos in pods connected by an X (four
square?) has been moved to a position of prominence, and some of the
"letter/word" strings have changed position.

[This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-20-2000).]

Leneba Posts: 192 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-20-2000 06:18 PM

"Any ideas on the importance of the Buddha statue? The repeated
reactions and references to it seemed so over the top."
SF, after all your great ideas, I'm afraid I only have a thought
regarding the above quote. I was just emailing a friend about this
very topic.
I noticed the extreme reactions to that Buddha as well. To maintain
his cover, if that's what it is, Ed only needs to seem a bit
distraught by the distruction of the statue. But why the fuss over
Liz offering to help clean up? I wonder if the "artifacts" are
actually alien artifacts or pieces of the ship altered by Tess or
(?) to resemble earthly treasures. It would provide the perfect
excuse for these items to be carefully shipped and not handled by
just anyone. Remember, he's also very concerned about another piece
as the movers carry it in.
And why the guy with the AK-47 at the house? If Harding is really
there just to convert some storage space for the Army, that's hardly
a reason to have an armed person at the door.

Nemo Posts: 226 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-20-2000 06:39 PM

I get a creepy feeling that Harding saying his work has to do with
Army storage facilities is partly true (and that whoever learns the
rest of the truth has to be killed). What do you imagine is being
stored in all those places?

Alienwatcher
Junior Member
Posts: 16 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-20-2000 08:11 PM

Back again with my 2 cents worth --
Maybe the visions Max has are an ability exclusive to him. Maybe all
the aliens have one power that is theirs alone and this is Max's.
Like Isabelle is the only one who can dreamwalk, per Jason Katims
interview. We haven't learned what Michael's is. I think Liz has
visions because of the deep emotion connection between the two. We
don't know if Tess also had visions but maybe any alien Max kissed
would give him visions (but we won't know since there isn't any
other aliens he could kiss) But with Liz, being human, maybe she's
the only one. But then again I doubt if Max ever kissed anyone
before Liz since he was keeping such a low profile all of his life.
So maybe Liz isn't special. (Although that thought makes me sad)
Again, I don't think Tess is controlling Max's mind. She knows about
him and continues to put herself near him but I don't think she
really knows what is going to happen between them or what his
reactions will be. I do think she is trying to make a connection
with him. She seemed a little surprised when he kissed her.
If Mr. Harding turns out to be Nasedo perhaps he just shapeshifted
into an actual person and killed the real Mr. Harding in order to
form a cover for him and Tess moving to Roswell. It also might help
him in keeping tabs on the alien hunters in the FBI. Maybe the real
Mr. Harding wasn't a storage consultant but part of the alien hunter
group. After all Nasedo shapeshifted into Hank to explain to the
sheriff his disappearance and also into Dr. Margolis who was an
actual person involved with Topolsky.

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-20-2000 08:17 PM

Lenaba, I like that idea. Alien artifacts that are hidden in plane
sight as antiques. I don't know if Rosta will post again, but she'ed
probably put a spin on the idea, saying they are ancient earth
artifacts, but that originally they were alien artifacts.
Considering that Tess could put the Buddha statue together again so
easily, both their reactions seem even weirder. Does anyone know if
there's any significance to it being a "Land Buddha from the
republic of Miramar."
That's what I thought I heard.

ibshafer
Member
Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-20-2000 08:56 PM

Theories, theories, theories. . . How I *love* theories. . .
Here're my thoughts on the scenario:
Mr. Harding was killed by Nacedo who then took his place. This puts
him in a good spot to know what the gov't is doing in relation to
the Pod Squad, whom I believe he is there to watch over, guide,
influence, protect...
He has been watching them for years, or at least, a great deal
recently. He has a particular interest in Max (over the others -- no
pix of anyone else in that box -- though we've seen [in "Blind
Date"] that he has taken photos of the trio). It may have something
to do with Max not being in the right "position" to fulfill his
"duty" -- which is to advance his species/people with his intended
mate -- the Dreaded Tess.
While I want to suspect Tess of All Things Bad In The World, and
while I believe she's hardly an innocent in all of this, there
seemed to be some genuine surprise coming from her. After Max's
initial vision, and subsequent unconvincing (though intended to
reassure himself) kissing of Liz in the kitchen, he peeks out the
kitchen door at Tess who is trying to act nonchalantly, but who
clearly notices him watching and I definately got the feeling that
she had had a pretty intense vision herself. The same one. And she
seemed surprised.
Also evidence her conversation, pre-face-sucking, outside the
Crashdown: Max is trying to convince her that he's *with* someone
and she, I swear, seemed be trying to reassure him that she
understood that.
Part of me wants to think that she has as little control over what's
happening as Max does. Though, clearly, she or her guardian, have
been researching Max. Kind of a 'here are some pictures of your mate
so you'll know who to attach yourself to' thing.
She's sort of an enigma. And my clearer thinking side says I
shouldn't trust anything she does. She seems completely sincere with
Liz, then grins evily when Mr. Harding insists Liz stay for dinner.
I can't quite get a handle on her angle, she may just be loyal to
their home world, she may not be the evil-destroyer-of-soul-mates
b***h she seems to be, but she Just Plain Gives Me the Willies.
Maybe that's because I'm in-love with Max myself and have been
getting a vicarious romancing through Liz and so I'm loyal to her
because she's... well, she *belongs* with Max. No matter what his
"duty" might be...
Gee, I don't think I furthered the theories at all...
Oh, another movie reference. (And I, too, saw Richard Dryfuss
playing with his mash potatoes during dinner!) Anyone see shades of
the dinner scene from Rocky Horror, too?
It had the same kind of feeling to it -- forced to eat dinner
against their will with a host who is clearly hostile... This is
more than a meal, isn't it?
And, boy -- Harding eats a *lot* for a weasely little guy... Alien
metabolism must be higher than ours. (That is, if he *is* an
alien...)
irene

Kate6058 Posts: 1100 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-20-2000 09:22 PM

LSS, yes! That's what I have been hoping for... there has to be
something that makes Liz stand out over Tess or any other human or
alien alive... and it better be something good, because we've
thought up so many possible scenarios that it'll be hard to surprise
us!

Nemo Posts: 226 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-20-2000 10:03 PM

Miramar? Isn't that a naval air station or something?

sterlingsilver Posts: 266 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-20-2000 11:14 PM

LSS - I love it! It adds a completely fascinating angle to the M/L
dynamic, and extends the mythical dimension of their relationship to
'out-of-this-world' places. Very exciting, and hope to find out more
about it.

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 27 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-21-2000 12:14 AM

It says "Miramar" on the close-captioning. Personally, I think
that's a screw-up -- either in the script, by actress de Raiven or
by the CC people. There's a Miramer Naval-Air station in San Diego,
CA (a.k.a. the famous "Top Gun") and there's also a city in Florida
named Miramar.
But I think they meant to say Republic of *Myanmar* (which is what
they're calling Burma these days) -- a country in southeast Asia
that probably has a sizeable Buddhist population.
Just a guess...

Tabasco_Cat
Member
Posts: 27 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-21-2000 12:38 AM

More on this whole antique artifact thing and other stuff...
I actually think the Buddha statue really has no importance beyond
it being the place where Liz chose to hide the camera, breaking it
later.
Why does Mr. Harding make a fuss? Because it's a distraction -- a
means for Liz to break away from the tension of their repeated
confrontations and shift attention onto something else, buying time
for herself. I think that's why he pushes her away and appears to be
in a hurry to clean things up. He's taking away the distraction.
In one of the USENET discussion on rec.arts.tv, somebody mentioned
the fact that Mr. Harding seemed "rattled" by Isabel and Liz's
appearance in his home. I think it's the exact opposite. He seemed
to be almost *toying* with the teens at different points. His
comment to Isabel, "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you," for
instance. And the whole convo at the dinner table when he asked Liz,
"Do *you* believe in aliens?"
and basically dared her to talk about Max there in the open.
I dunno. His behavior reminded me a lot of somebody who already knew
all the facts and was just creating opportunities to catch the
others in a lie -- rattling *them* into making some sort of mistake.
Or worse, revealing themselves.
I'd also point out that there's really no effective proof he's with
the military -- only his and Tess's word. He was not one of the
suits who showed up with the soldiers when Michael was there at the
house. And why would a legitmate employee of the Army have such a
situation occur at his home? Those people were moving with sense of
urgency.
I almost wondered if Mr. Harding and Tess held off on moving in
until the military heat cooled off. IOW, the military was looking
for them, checked the house and then left when there was nothing to
be found. Only then did the Hardings move in, figuring they would be
safe at that point.
Of course, that suggests that Mr. Harding really is Nacedo (which I
think is the case - but for a different reason), but it doesn't
explain then how Nacedo was able to get enough info about Topolsky's
situation to effectively impersonate her doctor.
Perhaps Nacedo has infiltrated the military with the "Harding"
cover?

Elliott Posts: 799 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-21-2000 07:32 AM

Lots of terrific theories and ideas ricocheting around here lately.
Antiques & Mr. Harding: Intriguing idea that these may be disguised
alien artifacts. Maybe. But sometimes an antique is just an antique.
My first thought was that if Mr. Harding is an alien, he may have
lived on Earth for hundreds or even thousands of years, and these
are things he has collected over time.
My second thought was: how could he afford a house like that on a
government salary? Was anyone else struck by the opulence of the
Harding maison? Sterile yes, but very ritzy, far larger and more
brightly lit than any home interior we have ever glimpsed in this
show. It may be a joke of the creative team that the 'normal'
trappings of an American upper middle class home (big, airy rooms,
light colors on the walls, antiques everywhere) actually denotes
suspicion and evil in the ROSWELL universe. But it was also stylized
to an amazing degree, perhaps suggesting that it's appearance was at
least in part a projection on the part of the paranoid, suspicious
blue collar kids who are our heroes and surrogates.
The theory LSS and others are formulating about who sees visions and
why is one I support. I don't think there's any question that the
idea of Max and Liz being 'soulmates' is central to the ROSWELL
canon. It isn't just mooning by Dreamgirls -- it is a crucial part
of this developing fable/myth we have all become enchanted with
since October. I happen to also like the idea that Max's
intervention somehow biologically changed Liz, and I don't think it
contradicts the soulmates idea, but rather works very well with it.
Max intervened because his love for Liz was powerful and selfless.
This has changed her life in EVERY way, and perhaps has changed her
genetically as well. I personally feel that if Katims and the
writers don't explore/confirm this in some way, they are missing a
good bet. Discovering this would also leave Liz with mixed emotions,
and this too would be consistent with her loving but sometimes
hesitant feelings about Max's 'alien' nature. Liz's new mantra would
then have to be, 'Alien se moi!'
Alienwatch: Your idea that each alien may have a 'specialty' as far
as powers, took my breath away. It is simple and obvious and
brilliant. Especially if you do spoilers, which I do. Unfortunately
that means moving this particular discussion to another board. If
Max, Michael, Isabel and perhaps alien others, each had a specialty,
it would reinforce the idea that they were meant to come together in
some way, perhaps to do something, fulfill some mission.
And ibshafer: I was also floored by your unselfconscious, simple
declaration, "maybe it's because I'm in-love with Max myself." I
think I am too, and it embarrasses me. You earn the Let's Call A
Spade A Spade medal of the week.

ibshafer
Member
Posts: 26 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-21-2000 08:33 AM

quote:

Originally posted by Elliott:
And ibshafer: I was also floored by your unselfconscious, simple
declaration, "maybe it's because I'm in-love with Max myself." I
think I am too, and it embarrasses me. You earn the Let's Call A
Spade A Spade medal of the week.

Oooo, I want to get this comment so badly, the 'Let's Call A Spade A
Spade" thing, but the headache that's been plaguing me for hours
just won't let me. . . And so I say - huh?

irene

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-21-2000 08:47 AM

irene:
It simply means that you are willing to acknowledge publically what
others might try to deny. Thus you are calling it "as it is".
And Elliot is right...who isn't a M/L shipper who doesn't "love" Max
a litte (ok...ok...a spade a spade..ALOT).

JKJBluv Posts: 467 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-21-2000 08:57 AM

all i have to say is that max still and always will love liz and the
skank used her little mind control games on him, but they wont work
NEmore!MAX AND LIZ FOREVER!

Kate6058 Posts: 1100 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-21-2000 10:17 AM

ibshafer, Elliott, LSS -- I join you all here. What can I say...
nothing, because I've never been able to put my thoughts about Max
into words, but they are there, definitely.

On Tess and Mr. Harding -- I think they are both excellent actors,
and I'm not talking about Emilie De Ravin and whoever plays Harding.
The characters themselves have something extremely weird going on...
and they do a wonderful job of coming off as the most innocent
creatures alive. Bleh. I strongly dislike these two.

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-21-2000 08:59 PM

SF:
Sorry it took so long to get back to your post but I had to watch
the TLV vision scenes in slow motion to respond to your comments.
You said of the back room scene:
"It's almost like she follows him into the back of the crashdown
with her mind, and
then she makes the connection. There's the "precognitive" vision of
them about to
hold hands in the desert (T in black shirt, blue jacket), two more
white flashes
during this sequence�then she's kissing him in the red shirt in the
back of the Crashdown. Obviously Max was sing Liz, but it seems like
Tess becomes Liz to Max. I can't tell if Tess's hand movement to
Max's face is involuntary on her part, or if it was something Liz
was actually doing. "
I'd like to add a different spin to that last part of the vision.
First of all--I think it is precognitive. Secondly, I think it is
anything but erotic. I think that Tess is leaving Max. That hand to
the face is very wistfull NOT sexy. And look at the expression on
Tess' face. But the clincher for me was that camera shot to the exit
sign. I wondered (and this is not a spoiler--just speculation based
on this scene)...I wonder if at some point, Tess is going to leave
Max through her own volition. That is certainly what it seemed like
in that scene. ??????????
SF -- can you look at that one scene again and tell me what you
think?
LSS
By the way, this exercise really was interesting--there is NO way
the audience can get the full impact of these visions except in slow
motion. Odd.
LSS

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-21-2000 09:08 PM

POSTSCRIPT:
You know, we keep seeing those glyphs and writing on what seems to
be a desert floor (Balance, Into the Woods, TLV).
It just occured to me that maybe that is a stylized page or
parchement. SF you are right about that one glyph -- the 4 square
with pods. What if Max and Tess are being talked about in that
document and we are "seeing" them in the message? What do you think
SF???
LSS

Breathless Posts: 145 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-21-2000 10:20 PM

quote:

Originally posted by LSS:
SF:
I'd like to add a different spin to that last part of the vision.
First of all--I think it is precognitive. Secondly, I think it is
anything but erotic. I think that Tess is leaving Max. That hand
to the face is very wistfull NOT sexy. And look at the expression
on Tess' face. But the clincher for me was that camera shot to the
exit sign. I wondered (and this is not a spoiler--just speculation
based on this scene)...I wonder if at some point, Tess is going to
leave Max through her own volition. That is certainly what it
seemed like in that scene. ??????????
LSS

An excellent observation LSS. When Tess puts her hand to Max's face
the look on her face and the way she turns away from him is like she
has just said goodbye. Then the sight of the exit sign would seem to
confirm this. The way this scene was shot with the black background,
the only thing visible beside the principle characters is the exit
sign.

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-22-2000 06:13 AM

Breathless:
Yeah--and if we are right...the Tess is probably not in control of
this part of the visionary experience. If so, then what she is
reacting to in the next scene is simply seeing Max in the door
window following his staring at her.
LSS

Nemo Posts: 226 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-22-2000 08:41 AM

Elliott, I too was struck by the apparent opulence of the house. (Is
it incongruous that the same neighborhood contains an abandoned
warehouse? Although maybe it makes sense that in such a ritzy
neighborhood, even the abandoned warehouses still have electricity.)
The idea that the Hardings didn't move in until after the military
types left is striking. But maybe the Army isn't "heat" for the
Hardings; I suspect his work (or the original H., if the present one
is an impersonator) really is connected with them. Maybe they were
sweeping the place for bugs? And the sweeping equipment itself is
classified, hence the need for that armed guard.
The size and emptiness of the place: could that be a metaphor for
those military storage places? And pictures of Max by the boxload:
what is it that's being stored in all those places?
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-22-2000).]

Lacrosse Dude Posts: 775 Registered: Sep 99 posted 04-22-2000 08:59 AM

Well, it looked like a rather new sub-division/development - so it
very easily could border onto an old industrial section...ready to
be demolished an re-built into housing.
I don't really think this, but it oculd be an answer.
tld movieboy

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-22-2000 09:24 AM

Nemo:
I think your observation about "sweeping" the house is plausible.
But if it is the case, it is also a blatant contradiction of Mr.
Hardings insistance that he is just there to convert the facility. I
mean, that job description hardly sounds high profile does it?
Hardly likely to warrant that kind of security precautions. And
certainly not one to provide the type of money the house or antiques
indicate.
As for the antiques--something is going on with this story element
and I'm just not sure what. Are we to think of visiting alien
"tourists" collecting from the indigenous culture? Or do they have
some other significance? I agree that--even if the figure was
priceless--Tess' response to its breaking was a bit over the top.
LSS
P.S. Nemo--looking forward to meeting you at the Vancouver
gathering!

CedarCircle
Member
Posts: 46 Registered: Mar 2000 posted 04-22-2000 02:27 PM

I would like to offer a practical, non-sf explanation for how Liz
knew it was Max at the door: She called him on the phone. Since
Roswell is small, it doesn't take long for anyone to get from point
A to point B. Liz would have logically expected Max to show up any
minute, no psychic connection needed.

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-22-2000 03:03 PM

While that would be a possible explanation, I suspect that the
dramatic stage, like the narrative one, has little room for
extraneous details. That is, actions and words are significant--they
count to convey something.
Now sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. And sometimes it is a
metaphor...
Since Mr. Harding (as well as the audience) notes Liz's head motion,
I suspect that we are meant to notice it. And since in the previous
scene Max has just arrived outside, I think that we are meant to
connect the two items. As to why she knew he was there...we'll have
to wait and see if we have any more of these anticipatory actions in
the next episodes
LSS

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-22-2000 09:12 PM

LSS, I took another look at the scene. I�d agree that there�s a
certain poignancy to the end of the kiss, it does definitely look
like a sad goodbye kiss. The EXIT sign is also very obvious. We
might be getting some cinematic foreshadowing of Tess�s departure
from the show. However, I�m even less convinced that this is a
precognitive vision, at least the parts where Tess is wearing the
red shirt, than I was before. I�m pretty sure it�s the same red
shirt she�s wearing sitting at the Crashdown bar, and she has the
same earings on, as well as a dark comb or barrette in her hair. So
barring the leather jacket, she appears to be dressed identically in
the vision to the way she�s dressed sitting talking to Isabel.
Here�s yet another spin to the scene. Tess does telepathically
follow Max back to where he�s kissing Liz. There�s the forced
connection, the "real" vision - the two of them holding hands, and
then the fantasy/thought projection first kiss between M&T. What if
her sadness at the end of the kiss is the realization that she�s
already lost Max to Liz, and experiencing the kiss forces her to
realize how much she�s lost. If she�s been focused on Max as her
future mate her whole life, that would be a pretty sad discovery,
hence the wistful movement of her hand. We know she has a box load
of photos of him, who knows how long she�s been fixated on him.
This also helps explain the hilarious (I�m sorry dreamgirls)
fantasy/ thought projection kiss in the classroom. Tess decided to
turn up the heat, both literally and figuratively, and poor Max was
so bemused by it all - poor thing, he even caught on fire.
LSS: "By the way, this exercise really was interesting--there is NO
way the audience can get the full impact of these visions except in
slow motion. Odd." I agree, I take it that those are the crumbs the
editors throw to the obsessed who take the time to watch things in
slow motion.
LSS: "You know, we keep seeing those glyphs and writing on what
seems to be a desert floor (Balance, Into the Woods, TLV). It just
occured to me that maybe that is a stylized page or parchement. SF
you are right about that one glyph -- the 4 square with pods. What
if Max and Tess are being talked about in that document and we are
"seeing" them in the message?"
I�m starting to think that someone or something is sending them the
message. M&T�s position next to the pod glyph is important. In next
week�s preview, Isabel stands in a similar location. As of now, I�d
say there is only one original document, Nacedo�s message/map on the
cave wall. However, he might have drawn that from his collective
unconscious, and all the aliens might know about the map. I find it
interesting that the map has changed, and I�m not entirely sure if
we were supposed to notice it. I think the map�s location in the
desert is important. I don�t think there�s a physical manifestation
of the map, but the visions of the map�s surroundings seem fairly
consistent. Could this be where the pods were kept, or part of the
crash site?
If the map isn�t real, and it just exists in the aliens minds, then
Max�s visions of him and Tess at the map cannot be precognitive,
because it can never happen - it�s not real.

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-22-2000 09:52 PM

You are right. I can't have my "in the message" and have it be
precognitive. There is another option--but we can't talk about it
yet on this thread (LSS hangs her head and admits she is spoiled
rotten.) After Monday, I'd like to come back to this discussion with
you and explain the cryptic implications of what I just said!!!
Meanwhile--as painful as it was to look at all those kisses slow
motion, you have taught me that I will have to do that in the future
to catch all those crumbs!!!
Great analysis SF. Always enjoy your insightful input.
LSS

Kate6058 Posts: 1100 Registered: Jan 2000 posted 04-22-2000 10:30 PM

SF -- What you said about Tess having the box of photos of Max
caught my attention.
I just realized I can't say much about this without spoiling! I
guess that an unspoiled person could make the connection between the
box of photos and Tess as Tess possessing these photos of this
person who she believes is hers to be with... but I did not make
this connection, even though I know what's going on. I first thought
that the photos were there as "FBI" materials... things being used
to seek out Max Evans and the people on the list.
But what you said makes more sense... and that's sad. I don't feel
bad for Tess, still, but what if she's been longing for this guy
(and who wouldn't after looking at those pictures of Max... they
looked very nice ) and then she finds out that he's in love with
another girl... what if that box of photos is hers and hers only?
That's weird.

BehrFan Posts: 304 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-22-2000 10:50 PM

Regarding the use of electricity in "the old abandoned warehouse":
In 285 South Isabel uses her power to light a lantern, so would it
be beyond the capabilities to use their powers to "create"
electricity...Could Isabel use her powers to cause a light bulb to
burn?
I always enjoy reading these threads, if only for the fact that they
give me an excuse to watch the episode again...and again...and....
Thank you to all of the spoiled posters on this thread for not
spoiling me...

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-23-2000 10:34 AM

Kate, I actually posted what I wrote below in response to what you
wrote. LSS, thanks for responding anyway.
LSS I'm not entirely unspoiled, but I'm not spoiled rotten. So I do
know where this is all going, but I don't have any details. I just
threw in the box of photos as a way of qualifying my previous
statement, hence not making it a spoiler. But I do think that it's
Tess's box...
[This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-24-2000).]

Piper88 Posts: 125 Registered: Apr 2000 posted 04-23-2000 11:14 AM

SF
If you are right, then Tess' interaction with the our trio takes on
different dimensions, doesn't it? If you want to discuss this more
and go into "spoiled" territory...drop me an e-mail.
LSS (NOT Piper 88..I really must check the computer after my
daughter is on it)
[This message has been edited by Piper88 (edited 04-23-2000).]

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-23-2000 11:41 AM

SF--check my note to you on the SF of BB thread. LSS

Nemo Posts: 226 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-23-2000 11:04 PM

LSS, I think when Ed Harding says earnestly that his job is mundane
he is lying, and when he jokes "if I told you I'd have to kill you"
he's closer to the truth. (Note the awkward pause there again, that
so often signals an extra meaning.)
If I'm right about the house being swept for bugs (just before Liz
infests the place, what delicious irony), what are the implications?
When you have access to anything classifed, normally you are not
allowed to work with it at home; at least, that was the rule
whenever I had a clearance. So what is in the house that needs
protection from scrutiny? Perhaps the Hardings themselves?
Background items in this episode also have me wondering. High on the
wall behind Harding in the surveillance image (as Liz is trying to
see the photos?) is something like a long-horned animal skull the
shape of whose horns seems to evoke images of the demonic. Behind
Tess in the street was a shoe-repair store window with the word
SERVICE, but much of the time this was cropped to VICE. Behind Max
and Michael in the school restroom was some diagonal sign with a
word that starts with DESCENDENT(?). Does this one tie in with the
others (facilis descensus Averno -- the descent to hell is easy), or
is the significance biological, or both?

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-24-2000 05:01 AM

Nemo:
I really do think that you are on to something. I think Harding is
much more than what he seems. Just how much more at this point,
however, is hard to say.
From this episode we know that Harding HAS to either be an alien or
be aware of them. Otherwise Tess could not have "fixed" the statue
knowing that he would see it. The odd social quirks and physical
mannerism also set him apart from others--even from Tess and our
trio.
And I am interested in finding out more about his relationship to
the military. Aside from all that we've noted--Crazy implied that
not only did the FBI have an orb--they knew that it only worked when
two were together. This means that either: 1) they already had two
and experimented with them and arrived at this conclusion
themselves, or 2) they had two and an alien showed them how they
worked, or 3) they had one but an alien informer told them how it
worked. If either #2 or #3 then it implies that there is an alien
informer working with the FBI either as a loyal operative or as a
double agent. Harding appears to be in place for either of these
latter options. Or--he could simply be Tess' human "handler" -- but
if that is the case, I think the aliens make better humans than he
does!!!
As far as the references to the demonic--remember Topolsky's answer
to Liz when asked where she'd been? To Hell.
LSS
P.S. Will e-mail you soon about Vancouver...I won't be in the office
until tomorrow and my ticket/flight times are there.

Nemo Posts: 226 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-24-2000 08:14 AM

Now you remind me, there has been a lot of fire imagery lately.
People commented on the darker look and the prevalence of reddish
light. The heat lamps at the cafe serving window. (Didn't Michael
burn his hand?) Burgers catching fire. Burn-barrel or reddish glow
behind Topolsky waiting in the alley. Topolsky's alleged death in
fire, as if Hell has reclaimed her. Max's sleeve catching fire, as
if Hell is eager to devour him too.
Also, T. was mortally afraid; she was begging for a ride with aliens
to an unknown place. What hellish thing is about to happen on Earth?
When she said "we are *all* going to die, I don't think she was
referring to just six or eight people.
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-24-2000).]

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-24-2000 11:23 AM

LSS, for now I'm trying to maintain as much of my unspoiled status
as possible. I have a feeling tonight's episode should go through
the majority of my spoiler knowledge. I saw your post on the SF of
BB thread.
Seeing symbols and attaching significance to them is not one of my
strengths, but the last two episodes have been full of religious
imagery. Thanks Nemo for pointing them out in this thread and on the
crazy thread. Maybe Elliot was on the right track suggesting that
Max could be a messianic figure. I'll be watching tonight to see if
there's even more religious imagery.
To go back to Ed and his potatoes. Maybe we shouldn't forget they're
a good source of carbohydrates. A shape shifter who likes tic tacs
might also like his carbohydrates, the sugars would stay in his
system longer...
[This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-24-2000).]

Nemo Posts: 226 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-24-2000 12:30 PM

SF, glad to see you again.
About mashed potatoes, I don't want to belittle what you say about
carbohydrates, but I think the potato mound may connect in other
ways too. On the thread about this,
http://forums.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/008490.html
deah, DocPaul, and others perceive a reference to the movie Close
Encounters: "the mountain that Richard Dreyfess was building with
his mashed spuds and then later mud in his front lawn was Devil's
Tower National Monument in Wyoming. It was a message from the aliens
giving their future landing site." This fascinates me because it may
link to (1) the demonic, (2) Michael's "thinking about mud" (3)
alien landing.
And what did Tess call the statue? Something like the "landed (?)
Buddha"? I couldn't get the sense of it as a label (can anyone help
me?) but it gets in the idea of landing.
On the thread about the significance of the statue,
http://forums.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/008170.html
I thought it might be a reference to impassiveness (isn't this a
Buddhist emphasis?), as well as reinforcing my conjecture, based on
the symbolism of the nuns, that there may be an alien community on
earth that is very old and widespread. (Sort of like the nuns, "in
the world but not of it.") And when Ed Harding said to Liz "This is
the 21st century" I wondered how many others he has seen?

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-24-2000 02:11 PM

Nemo--
And that is a fascinating topic of speculation. Fringe UFO groups,
of course, have posited that interaction has taken place between
humankind and aliens throughout history (EVD's Chariots of the Gods,
etc.).
Just because a vessel crashed (I'm back in the storyline here) in
1947, it does not logically follow that this has to have been the
first contact between Max's people and earth. Earlier I had
suggested that the antiques in the Harding house might be likened to
the gatherings of tourists. But what if, following your suggestion,
they are momentos? If the alien community on earth is sizable and
well enscounced, then the question must be raised, were M/Mi/I just
"lost" due to the crash? Or were they purposefully hidden?
And that is as far as I can go on logic alone and your speculations
without going to .....the spoiled side.
LSS

SF Posts: 80 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-24-2000 03:47 PM

Nemo, I've been lurking on the mashed potatoe thread, as well as
reading the mentions in this thread, and at the moment I'll accept
Ed's huge mound of mashed potatoes might be an allusion to the whole
Close Encounter's thing, but it seems a bit of a stretch. What
Dreyfuss sculpted with his potatoes was really obvious, I think it
was Deah who did a great write up of it on the mashed potatoe
thread. If we could see some kind of geologic formation in Ed's
mound, I'd be a lot more convinced.
The reason I brought up the whole carbohydrate idea, is because of
the capsaicin idea Rosta, amx and I were posting about on the Crazy
and BB SF threads. I've reposted below some of what I posted on the
Crazy thread.
quote:

Originally posted by amx on the SF of BB:

...I, like Rosta, have been thinking about the capsaicin angle.
This compound not only has demonstrated pain suppression activity
(as per Rosta�s post), but also indications of anticarcinogenesis
and antimutagenesis, at least in animal trials. ... So, their
�dietary quirk� may confer more than taste
advantages!

I'm keying into the antimutagenesis aspects of capsaicin [I
understand this is not
where you and Rosta were going], and think that there might be a
plausible
explanation here for the whole shapeshifting phenomenon, in sci fi
land of course. What if the trio's dietary quirk is something common
to the young of all their species. Maybe the high consumption of an
antimutagen decreases the chance of a spontaneous shapeshift, and
only when they are ready to learn the full process of shapeshifting
do they wean themselves off the compound (this could be an
instinctual drive, thus explaining the trio's minimal understanding
of it). Nacedo, on
the other hand, could be taking pills that have high mutagenic
compounds, thus facilitating his shapeshifting.
And in a later post on the SF of Crazy thread a modification to the
idea:
The tic tacs instead of being some mutagenic or nutritional
supplement, might just be good old tic tacs. If we anthropomorphize,
he/she/it (even though we�ve only seen males so far, it makes sense
that he can shapeshift into anything) could just be eating tic tacs
to get some good old glucose to replace the energy he expended in
the shape shift.
Which brings us full circle to where I was going with my post
earlier in this thread:
To go back to Ed and his potatoes. Maybe we shouldn't forget they're
a good source of carbohydrates. A shape shifter who likes tic tacs
might also like his carbohydrates, the sugars would stay in his
system longer...
I'm hinting that 1) Ed could be a SS, and 2) he needs lots of
glucose to maintain the shapeshift.

LSS: "the question must be raised, were M/Mi/I just "lost" due to
the crash? Or
were they purposefully hidden? And that is as far as I can go on
logic alone and your speculations without going to .....the spoiled
side."
Interesting, interesting. That's a twist I hadn't thought of. That
could tie into the whole messianic/greater purpose idea.
[This message has been edited by SF (edited 04-24-2000).]

Nemo Posts: 226 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-24-2000 06:14 PM

So, on SH, when Liz drew a picture of that radio tower by highway
42, and the drawing had crossbraces like an antenna tower, but its
outline was more like an obelisk, maybe that shape supposed to evoke
ancient Egypt and the story of Moses?
Well, I don't want to elicit spoilers; I'd rather wait and see.
Doubtless many of us will watch Roswell reruns for the rest of our
lives, but you see it for the first time only once. I appreciate
everyone's efforts to keep these threads spoiler-free.
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-24-2000).]

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-26-2000 05:52 AM

bumping

LSS Posts: 687 Registered: Feb 2000 posted 04-29-2000 05:58 PM

Bump until I can get this archived

Nemo Posts: 226 Registered: Dec 1999 posted 04-29-2000 08:22 PM

SF, I appreciate your detailed study of the visions. (I know what a
lot of work that is.) Now I see that your reason for thinking the
pods might be stasis chambers is stronger than my hunch in the
opposite direction.
Tabasco_cat, thanks for clearing that up about the Republic of
Myanmar. I'm sure you're right about that. I wouldn't have got it
myself.
LSS, I like your interpretation of the raised glyphs on the desert
floor as a stylized page or parchment. That would explain the
seemingly unnatural flatness, among other things.
About Harding: (after seeing Four Square) I'm more puzzled than ever
that when he found the camera he took it to the sheriff. I was
guessing that he really was with the military in some secret
capacity, but in that case I would expect the discovery of the
camera to be reported to them first. Unless they decided to have him
also tap the local sheriff without mentioning the military security
angle.
A new question (I think): about halfway through, just after Max
finds the camera, there's a scene in the cafe where the light
fixtures hanging from the ceiling are prominent, and they look like
flying saucers in formation. Is this a hint that some alien armada
is headed here even now? Or only that there may have been many
landings in the past?
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 04-29-2000).]