Fan Forum - Roswell - The Science Fiction of TLV and Four Square
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09-06-2000 10:16 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Since there are two episodes of Roswell on this week (TLV and 4S) shapeshifter suggested that I combine the normal SF threads into one this week (thanks ss--excellent idea!). ********************************************
TLV and 4S brought us solidly into "Roswell Revamped" (the term used to describe the upped SF/action element in the last six eppys of Roswell's first season). They also developed the "new" characters of Tess and her "father" Ed Harding. From our post-Destiny vantage POV, however, several elements remain unresolved as we look toward the beginning of Roswell's second season:
1) TESS' IDENTITY: Although Max tells viewers in these episodes that Tess is "one of us," suspicions abound on these boards as to whether or not he is correct. Pro-Tess viewers accept the momogram and argue that--not only is Tess "one of them"--but a very SPECIAL "one of them" -- Max's former bride and his current predestined mate. Other posters, however, suggest that Tess is not what she seems.
TESS--
Victim or victimizer? Max's species or a "bad" alien ss posing as Max's people? Shameless manipulator or desperate heroine? Sly seductress or immature/lonely person?
[BTW--a gentle reminder--let's keep the discussion on this issue clean and civil--we've had enough character/actress bashing to serve a lifetime as those who have been around this board know. Regardless of whether you are a dreamer or a hussy--let's keep the discussion on an analytical level.]
2) MAX'S VISIONS: The visions in this eppy bring up several issues in terms of this "gift/power."
--proximity vs. touching...before, visions were the result of a tactile experience (touching). Now we know (though technically we won't "realize" this until MTTM when Tess reveals it to Isabel) that images can be implanted from a distance. What the limitations of this power are, however, remain to be seen (this power's effective radius, how many people can be manipulated at one time, etc.).
--recovery vs. implantation...these visions seem to fall into two categories: a) those recovered from a person's memory, and b) those intentionally implanted by another person. Each type raises different ethical considerations. Type "a" (memory) raises privacy issues (as Max notes in SH) while type "b" raises the issue of manipulation (which is raised in by Isabel in MTTM).
--precognition...some of Max's visions are actualized in later eppys implying a precognitive element. ????????? Is this accurate or simply an example of a poorly constructed frame?
--humans as vision receivers...it is intriguing that Liz will not "receive" another vision from Max until Destiny, but receives those B/W visions from ss/Max. Admittedly, there are several eppys where the M/L relationship is put on hold, nevertheless, in Crazy and TLV there is still enough "lip action" between M/L to raise the question of why she DOES NOT receive any visions. In MTTM, she quickly receives them from the "Max look alike" doesn't she?
3) HUMAN VS ALIEN. 4S articulates the issue that will become a major theme for both our humans and our aliens in the second season: ******
LIZ: It's just that...she's an alien, Max. MAX: So am I.
******
MICHAEL: Why are you so scared to be alien? MAX: Why are you so scared to be human?
Of course by Destiny, Max tells Liz that she has made him "human" only to be shown in the cave just how "alien" he really is. (Sigh...can you hear my dreamer heart breaking?)
4) THE BOOK. The book Tess recovers from the library wall remains a mystery even at the end of the season. Is it real or fake? And what information does it contain? Tess implies she knows, but never really tells. One assumes Ed Harding can "read" the text, but it never is mentioned by the podsters. For a group of people willing to risk all by setting the orbs in action in Destiny, it seems that there are many avenues to their identity that they leave unexplored along the way--the book being a prime example of an untapped resource.
Well folk, in looking at these eppys from the position of Destiny's cave--what do you think?
LSS
[Edited by LSS on 09-06-2000 at 10:20 AM]
09-06-2000 10:34 AM
King Grinch
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
The ep called TLV...Was it renamed to Camera?
09-06-2000 10:48 AM
October
Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000
Since I won't be able to watch tonite, I viewed 4 Sq on tape last nite and was again struck by the question of proximity with regard to Mi/I's dreams. It does not appear that Michael shared the 1st and 3rd dreams with Isabel. In the first, she is asleep on Alex's shoulder while he is monitoring the camera. Michael is asleep in the car parked outside of Tess's house. We do not see that he rec'd the same vision Iz did. In the 3rd dream, Iz is taking a nap in the middle of the day. We do not see Michael sharing that dream either. The two we do see him share are both when he is asleep in the room next door to Iz. Granted, this ep is poorly edited and very choppy, so possibly some scenes were cut, however if we are to take the ep as we are given it, this could be important, in that Michael only gets these dreams when he is within a few feet of Iz. Thus, if Tess did manipulate these dreams, she may have only done it to Iz. If they originate from Iz, they only reach Michael when he is "in range".
09-06-2000 10:48 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by King Grinch The ep called TLV...Was it renamed to Camera?
As far as I know the episode "Tess, Lies, and Videotape" was the final name for the eppy that had the original working title of "Tess whose coming for dinner" (or something like that--I am doing this from memory). Where did you get the title "Camera" from?
LSS
09-06-2000 10:59 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by October Since I won't be able to watch tonite, I viewed 4 Sq on tape last nite and was again struck by the question of proximity with regard to Mi/I's dreams. It does not appear that Michael shared the 1st and 3rd dreams with Isabel. In the first, she is asleep on Alex's shoulder while he is monitoring the camera. Michael is asleep in the car parked outside of Tess's house. We do not see that he rec'd the same vision Iz did. In the 3rd dream, Iz is taking a nap in the middle of the day. We do not see Michael sharing that dream either. The two we do see him share are both when he is asleep in the room next door to Iz. Granted, this ep is poorly edited and very choppy, so possibly some scenes were cut, however if we are to take the ep as we are given it, this could be important, in that Michael only gets these dreams when he is within a few feet of Iz. Thus, if Tess did manipulate these dreams, she may have only done it to Iz. If they originate from Iz, they only reach Michael when he is "in range".
First of all--thanks for bringing up the issue of the Mi/I "dreams". I wonder if these constitute another category of experience? Regardless, they do offer a number of other interpretive issues:
1) Can Tess do what Isabel can't--influence dreams? Are those dreams implantations? Or are they the result of biological programming? We never find out if those are due to Tess do we? Yet there certainly is motivation for Tess to get Mi?I to accept their "destiny" so that Max will accept his, isn't there?
2) Perhaps Mi/I's shared dreams are due less to proximity than to the fact that they are both asleep? The other examples you cited have one of them asleep but the other awake. Or perhaps a combination of sleep state and proximity?
LSS
09-06-2000 11:25 AM
pixiedude
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by LSS quote:
Originally posted by King Grinch The ep called TLV...Was it renamed to Camera?
As far as I know the episode "Tess, Lies, and Videotape" was the final name for the eppy that had the original working title of "Tess whose coming for dinner" (or something like that--I am doing this from memory). Where did you get the title "Camera" from?
LSS
Speaking of cameras, I have a minor realism gripe.
As a Mac owner, I am aware of Macs on tv. Roswell seems like a Mac kinda town. Isabel has a pink iMac, Max has a green one, Topolsky had a Wallstreet Powerbook, and in TLV, Alex brought a Mac flat-panel studio display to the abandoned warehouse. What's wrong with this picture?
That kind of display requires a CPU, the 20- pound kind with handles and an Apple on the side. Before they were discontinued, they cost as least as much as a Powerbook. So if the idea was to record the action on the camera, why didn't he just use a laptop?
Back to the episode: In TLV and Crazy, Tess showed the potential to be a cunning, duplicitous, seductive villain, like Alexis in Dynasty. Such villains can be much more fun to watch than the good guys are. I was disappointed in later eps, because once Harding Nasedo becomes a major character, Tess becomes more of a whiny sidekick.
09-06-2000 12:18 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
In TLV and Crazy, Tess showed the potential to be a cunning, duplicitous, seductive villain, like Alexis in Dynasty. Such villains can be much more fun to watch than the good guys are. I was disappointed in later eps, because once Harding Nasedo becomes a major character, Tess becomes more of a whiny sidekick.
Pixiedude:
I think you are correct in this observation. As a dreamer (who was also "spoiled") I spent many an anxious minute over Tess and Max before she appeared in TLV. By Destiny, she really didn't worry me at all. I really do, however, wonder where they are going to take this character.
LSS
09-06-2000 12:25 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
I'm at work, so this may be disjointed: When Liz says to Max re kissing Tess, "I don't know that there'll ever be reason enough to explain that," this could be an indication that we might find later that they didn't kiss. Max knew the lab scene was a "daydream," but when he came out of the kiss there was no point of reference to make him think it wasn't real. I admit, this may be wishful thinking; if the kiss was not real, then the daydream also contained a flash--which seems unlikely. But, any other thoughts on the reality of the kiss, or Max's sense of "something controlling" him?
Also, Tess tells Liz it will never happen again. So far it hasn't, but it's as if making that physical connection opened up Max to further mental connections from Tess. Anyone comments here?
09-06-2000 01:40 PM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
]Originally posted by shapeshifter. I'm at work, so this may be disjointed: When Liz says to Max re kissing Tess, "I don't know that there'll ever be reason enough to explain that," this could be an indication that we might find later that they didn't kiss.
Oh how I wish. The significance of that "kiss" took up a lot of space on the spoiler board weeks (damn, MONTHS) before TLV actually aired. But if it was an implanted image we certainly were given no explicit tip off as viewers. Also, I have to say that finding that Tess is an alien immediately after that exchange certainly negates the impact of Liz' words -- that is, we are given an implied "reason" to explain the kiss...Tess is an alien...aliens have powers, etc.
[QUOTE}Max knew the lab scene was a "daydream," but when he came out of the kiss there was no point of reference to make him think it wasn't real.
Nor were the viewers given any point of reference, and that is the problem. You can keep the characters in the dark, but it is not nice to fool your audience (forever, that is...short periods are fine to build dramatic tension).
quote:
; i But, any other thoughts on the reality of the kiss, or Max's sense of "something controlling" him?
I have still not given up the idea of biological programming that has to be overcome.
quote:
Also, Tess tells Liz it will never happen again. So far it hasn't, but it's as if making that physical connection opened up Max to further mental connections from Tess. Anyone comments here?
But Max daydreams of Tess before they kiss (i.e. the cafe scene and the lab scene) AND after they kiss (the Jeep scene). I'm not quite sure what you are saying here ss...could you clarify your point for me? How did it "open" Max?
LSS
[Edited by LSS on 09-06-2000 at 01:56 PM]
09-06-2000 01:44 PM
October
Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000
quote:
Originally posted by LSS quote:
2) Perhaps Mi/I's shared dreams are due less to proximity than to the fact that they are both asleep? The other examples you cited have one of them asleep but the other awake. Or perhaps a combination of sleep state and proximity?
LSS
LSS: Agree with the above, other than for the fact Michael was asleep during Iz's first dream (the beginning of the ep), just not in her vicinity. She was in the warehouse monitoring the camera and he was asleep in Maria's car parked in front of Tess's house. When I go back and think about it, we only see Max in his attraction to Tess, when Tess is in his vicinity. (We do not see him "daydreaming" of her, when she isn't around.) Is this possibly a mating instinct of the alien female, drawing her mate to her? Or else, it could simply be the result of Tess's mind manipulation of Iz, as they have been in each other's company alot recently, as their friendship has developed? Iz then, due to thoughts induced by Tess, starts to have the dreams, and draws Michael in when he's "in range", just as Tess draws Max in when he's "in range".
[Edited by October on 09-06-2000 at 04:19 PM]
09-06-2000 04:46 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
LSS! Oh there you are, been looking for this thread everywhere.
Excellent introduction as always.
I think that somewhere around fanforum I've posted my opinions on every topic you mention. However, I'm a little lost on the precognitive topic. Could you give me some examples of what you mean???
Under the "TLV temp" thread Lisa closed, made speculation at the "Previous on Roswell Video Sequence". Normally, I really don't pay to much attention to this, because it's such a condensed mish-mash of information, only a regular viewer could understand it. But I got sort of excited when I saw this "remember sequence".
At Senior Chows: Topolsky: "....an alien hunter. He's buried deep inside the FBI."
Liz: "What is he looking for."
CUT TO TOLOPSKY and MICHAEL: Topolsky answers, "It's a communicator."
Now, I know it's a reach, and putting my personal theories about the communicator aside, I still find it odd that they would make the edit before Topolsky answers Liz with the correct line, "Max Evans".
TLV shows us are pod squad in an absolute panic. It is not about the communicators. I think that keeping Topolsky's correct answer would have fit this episode better. So, that leaves me with thinking, why do they introduce this episode this way? (And you know where I'm going with that.) But the question lingers in my head.
I have to also add, don't you love Maria in TLV. She seems to be the only one that can think.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
Now go click
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
[Edited by Qfanny on 09-06-2000 at 04:49 PM]
09-06-2000 07:11 PM
allie0875
Fan Registered: Apr 2000
Hey everyone!
In TLV, did anyone notice the 2nd and 3rd "Max" pictures that Liz looked at from the box? The 2nd picture looked like it was taken after the daydream that Max had about Tess while kissing Liz in the backroom at the Crashdown. The 3rd picture looks like it was taken after the daydream Max had about Tess in the Chemistry room. He even has the same shirt on and you can see the light and beakers in the picture. This suggests that someone else had to be in the room or someone else was watching them when Max had these visions. Could that be the person that gave Max the visions and not Tess. Believe me as a dreamer, I'm not showing support for Tess, but it just took me by surprise when 2 of the pictures we were shown happened right after Max had these daydreams. Unfortunately I didn't see a picture that showed Max and Tess in the rain (I was looking hard :lol. I know that this has been brought up before, but now I am really curious as to how they were taken and for what reason. Maybe this could explain why Max felt that something was controlling him.
Beth
09-06-2000 07:20 PM
Roswell_Amanda
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
I have something to add. I think that this has been said before but here it goes.....
OK so everytime ther Pod Squad has had flashbacks regarding coming out of the pods, they have used the same actors. Max and Isabel remember being together THEN finding Michael. Young Isabel had short hair in EVERY flashback. In this flashback that Max has when he and Tess are in the desert, Michael is with them before they even come out of the cave. Also, young Isabel has long hair. Now my opinion on this is that Tess made max see this vision. Not realizing that Michael wasn't around them when they were in the cave. Also, I think that Tess just assumed possibly that Isabel always had long hair. Why else would they make those two changes when they have pretty much been consistent with the rest of the flashbacks, as far as Michael (location) and Isabel (appearance)go.
What do you guys think of this? I could just be rambling but I have been thinking baout this for quite some time now. Roswell_Amanda
09-06-2000 07:36 PM
EmmyLou
Dedicated Fan Registered: Nov 19999
Just saw this and it bugs me! In 4S, Max and Liz find out that the stars started making the triangle shape around when Tess showed up in May. Yet @ the end of the Balance, we saw the shape in the sky. That was in like October/November. That is just not fitting together.
Emmy
09-06-2000 07:39 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by allie0875 In TLV, did anyone notice the 2nd and 3rd "Max" pictures that Liz looked at from the box? The 2nd picture looked like it was taken after the daydream that Max had about Tess while kissing Liz in the backroom at the Crashdown. The 3rd picture looks like it was taken after the daydream Max had about Tess in the Chemistry room. He even has the same shirt on and you can see the light and beakers in the picture.
'Previously on' our threads someone suggested that they did that to cut corners in that those pictures were handy from the last ep. But having read recent stuff on the importance of props by Qfanny and Miss Texas, I wonder. I'm also still wondering why Valenti was taking the pictures outside of the Hardings'?
LSS, re Max opening up after the TessKiss, I guess I thought things escalated with regards to his acceptance of her after that. Recall he initially told Liz to leave the Hardings so he could talk to Tess. But on rethinking it, it would seem the pod flashes that would most intrigue him.
October, I thought that Michael and Is only shared dreams when Michael stayed at the Evans' house. I remember imagining Tess lurking outside, casting her visions. I will watch more closely tonight (and tape!).
09-06-2000 07:44 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Roswell Amanda:
In addition to the hair, I also noticed "long hair Isabel" pod child also had blue or green eyes. (Or lighter colored eyes, the hatching scene has nearly all the color taken out.)
Tonight was the first time I've ever seen the entire episode of Four Squares. I remember feeling very put off the first time I saw it. Frankly, I thought the writers were pushing sex way too much. But in hindsight, which is always so much clearer, this episode has a lot to offer.
In the kitchen when Tess forces to see the four square symbol, I noticed that Tess held Isabel's hand during the entire time. Although it doesn't seem necessary for Tess to do this to put a vision in Isabel's hand, I wonder why she did this. (Cringy ain't it :wink
The way Tess is acting makes me feel that she was inviting Isabel to make a connection with her. Perhaps Tess did a more "private" connection, one Isabel couldn't detect, to see if what she was thinking could be true. Remember, in TLV, Tess tells Isabel, (when speaking about guys Tes is interested in) that she thought she found her soulmate, meaning Max. She then didn't seem as sure afterwords for a moment.
Now, I forgot how weird this episode is, Max comes close to beating Tess up. And I agree, the memory Max has about Tess does not fit.
The speech Max and Liz share in the science room is so "fatelistic" --sorry I misspelled that. Somehow I felt that there was more happening behind the scenes than that. And another thing, where do you suppose Pierce was??? He was all over the place in Crazy and TLV, a subtle clue left her and there. Pierce's disappearance really left me puzzled. Can anyone offer me any idea.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
Now go click!
Remember: Liz is not an alien! but is.
09-06-2000 08:03 PM
Au Lac
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Tess's vision inducing powers seem somewhat limited. In those visions, it would appear that the subject is still within the confines of the his or her environment. Actions and details may be changed (exchanging Tess for Liz), but it doesn't appear Tess can make wholesale hallucinations that take the subject out of the environments.
The Podsters were having visions long before Tess showed up. Her uber "Podsterness" simply increased the frequency of the Pod Squad's dreams. It lies within the realm of possibility that Tess may have manipulated their dreams, but that still appears to be a skill only within the domain of Isabel. Isabel pokes around at night and Tess in the day.
The children are separated. Michael, being Michael, ventures out into the unknown without the other two. It would appear that in the time it took Isabel and Max to catch up to Michael was when Michael became separated from them.
09-06-2000 09:35 PM
throswell
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
I think Tess's vision inducing powers are in a way a curse. I don't see how anyone would ever be able to trust her, knowing that at any moment she can make them see things that aren't there. I'm surprised that she let Max, Michael & Isabel know that she had this power. I would have expected her to hide it from them. I would think M/M/Iz would be suspicious of anything out of the ordinary that happened when Tess was around. It will be interesting to see if there will be a way that the aliens can resist Tess's visions. Otherwise this is always going to be a obstacle btwn Max & Liz--Liz will always be wondering what tess will do around Max, and I would think Max would be a little wary around Tess.
09-06-2000 10:10 PM
rocklowery
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
One quick note about the "visions" seen by the podsters. If you listen carefully, there is a very distinct sound associated with Tessovisions. Most if not all of the visions that Max has and some of the visions Michael and Isabel have are preceded by this sound. It is clearly identified with one of her confirmed visions in Destiny when she tells the agents to go to Hondo.
More later, when I have time to catch up on the reading!
09-06-2000 10:12 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by throswell I think Tess's vision inducing powers are in a way a curse. I don't see how anyone would ever be able to trust her, knowing that at any moment she can make them see things that aren't there. I'm surprised that she let Max, Michael & Isabel know that she had this power. I would have expected her to hide it from them. I would think M/M/Iz would be suspicious of anything out of the ordinary that happened when Tess was around...
They have certainly proved to be a curse for the popularity of the character of Tess with fans. And though logic would indicate that the original 6 would continue to mistrust her, they amazingly follow her allure. Note too that touching seems significant to her power. But it is the power of her visions as she shows Max his memories (no doubt created with the help of the childhood pictures of Max that Tess conned Mrs. Evans into showing her) that causes him to accept her as one of them. I considered that her great skill could indicate that she has been around for a lot longer than 16 years, practicing her craft. But then maybe it is just Nasedo/Harding's tutelage.
[Edited by shapeshifter on 09-06-2000 at 10:18 PM]
09-07-2000 03:51 AM
plumeria
Crazed Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by EmmyLou Just saw this and it bugs me! In 4S, Max and Liz find out that the stars started making the triangle shape around when Tess showed up in May. Yet @ the end of the Balance, we saw the shape in the sky. That was in like October/November. That is just not fitting together.
Yeah, I noticed that, too.
This is only sort of sci-fi oriented, but... Knowing what we do now about the Hardings, I was trying to guage their reactions in TLV and 4Sq based on that knowledge -- and some of it just doesn't make sense! I mean, Edsedo may be emotionless, but that doesn't explain why he's creepy! And Tess seems to be in on whatever conspiracy he's in on -- note her wanting to keep the box of Max photos secret. (BTW, anyone else wonder if maybe the box held photos of Mi and Is also, but Liz just didn't dig deep enough? That would make more sense.)
Why did Tess go to the library to retrieve the old book? She knew everyone was following her -- she could have pulled that book, without involving Kyle -- from a tree in the park and Max or Maria or whoever was currently spying would have seen it. What is in that book? An instruction manual for the pod squad for them to read when they got older? Or something else?
09-07-2000 05:43 AM
uriah
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
This is just me delurking i always ghost around these threads but I am always a bit intimidated to post but tonight I thought why not....anyway
The Mi/I dreams...I'm not of the opinion that Tess implanted these visions in Michael and Isabel mainly because of the fact that when she was implanting images in others they always remained in the surroundings where they were in the real world. I think that the dreams were genuine in showing them what lay in store for them much like a switch that kicks in in puberty showing them how life was to be for them. However I think that Tess being aware of the Liz/Max thing she needed for him to be pushed along therefore inducing visions.
Just giong off on a tangent for a while which brings to mind another point with Max and Liz it has never been about the physical but always the emotional the intellectual even in Sexual Healing they curbed their hormonal tendancies when they felt that they were in danger of using each other. But the visions that tess induced upon Max were all about the physical, which leads me to beleive that she knows that there is a strong bond between M/L but also that there is a weakness...
As for Tess I think that she is a victim and that she out of all the podsters has had it the worst of them all, having to be constantly on the run never being able to explore her humanity and yet craving to be part of a family, in this sense she has common ground with Michael...
09-07-2000 06:13 AM
ElizabethinTexas
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
I don't really have much to add, just one major question...why is it that Max has no dreams of Tess, of mating, of a child as Is and Michael do? Thru 4Sq, the only "visions/daydreams" Max has about Tess are ones that appear to be manipulated or implanted by Tess herself. They are not anything like what Is and Michael experience.
In regards to the remarks by a previous poster (sorry can't remember who), why Isabel's hair is suddenly longer...maybe (this is if Tess did the manipulation of memory thing I praying for) she gave Is the longer hair because of the photos she saw of her as a child, after she and Max were adopted. Also, the blue/green eyes, I have no clue why, the actress (she's the daughter of one of the producers if I recall correctly)seemed to have brown eyes in all the past eppys.
As for Liz not receiving any flashes from Max since the end of SH until Destiny, it supports the theory of some that maybe the flashes Liz was getting of the crash, etc., were like "beamed" into her by an outside source. Possibly Edsedo or TicTac. During her heightened chemical/sexual peak egged on by Max (who seemed to be in the same way), she was more receptive to it. Also in past eppys where she does get the flashes, it is when Max opens up to her (Pilot, BD), and he is letting down his guard to let her see him. In Destiny, he is trying to show her what he went through, to let her in, to commiserate and receive comfort from the one he loves, he needs.
Anyhoo, I suppose I should get back to work, earn my money.
Laters, Beth
09-07-2000 06:46 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by uriah This is just me delurking i always ghost around these threads but I am always a bit intimidated to post but tonight I thought why not....anyway
The Mi/I dreams...I'm not of the opinion that Tess implanted these visions in Michael and Isabel mainly because of the fact that when she was implanting images in others they always remained in the surroundings where they were in the real world. I think that the dreams were genuine in showing them what lay in store for them much like a switch that kicks in in puberty showing them how life was to be for them.
Welcome to the "SF of..." threads as a poster! I think that there is a good chance that you are right. Although Tess certainly has motivation to "push" destiny (her definition focuses [of course] on predestined mates) I think that there might be a biological imperative at work here as well. Harding speaks of "programming" in The White Room in relation to Michael's "gifts/powers." It has never been made clear, however, to what extent this "programming" affects other areas.
And any mention of programming should be a real "turn off" to the audience for it is the vocabulary of machines and not of the heart!
LSS
09-07-2000 11:10 AM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Plumeria, I also wondered if there were pictures of the others in the box. But upon rewatching I think that Liz did lift and look toward the bottom (although not examining every pic) and she does say the box is "full" of pictures of Max.
How about: the pictures were intended to assist Edsedo in his "most important role" as shapeshifter (playing Max), but Tess, as a lonely teen decided to use them for her own purposes?
09-07-2000 11:35 AM
Misha
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000
Hey, this is my first time posting here... but I'll try to be like you
First, I do think Max/Tess kiss under the rain was real... Because Liz later tells him : "oh, but you kissed her Max", and he tries to explain but he dosen't make a good job... (like when he tells her that he had a flash with Tess and she answers "So I guess I'm not so special at all, huh?")
Then, the constellation thing... Aries can not be seen in April as Michael pointed out, in the middle of the sky... (just at the horizon) and even if it could be seen, there's no way Venus will get that high to make the V shape, or to be in the sky by the hour Is/Mi where awake standing in the window... but hey, writers hardly take astronomy for real... I know they don't.
About young Isabel with short/long hair, couldn't it be just that the young actress had it short when they first filmed??? it could be just a mistake... sorry, I'm not a big conspiracy girl...
And Max did have dreams about Tess, as he recalls them in Max to the Max, when he's asking Tess if they could mate in dreams, and she tells him it has to be the human way...
I think that's all... I hope it was usefull
Misha
09-07-2000 12:04 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 19999
The discussion about Tess having to be very close to work her voodoo is a good one, but I think her being able to tell an FBI man that is across the street and a very separate FBI man located at Kyles house to do the same--I am assuming Kyle doesn't live all that close, leads me to believe that she has a very FAR REACHING bag of tricks.
I think this also demonstrates that she could have made Max believe he was kissing Tess as well as Liz believe she was seeing it at the same time. As Evid said on the other thread as we were discussing the significance of the word FOCUS all over these last several eps---optical illusion--and EMax saying in M2tM "DON'T BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU SEE." Yes indeed.
Misha so you don't like conspiracy theories, I think they make the plot twisty and intriging myself lol! So I do think the different hair lengths is significant along with Isabel after having a vison in the POD CHAMBER(with Tess directly right behind her I might add) said "No I DON'T BELIEVE THIS..."
As for the SEX INDUCED FANTASY Tess provided to Max I think Jason is such a great actor you could actually tell he was absolutely DUMBFOUNDED where that came from and the shifty look around when we see Tess "I hope that doesn't disappoint you." This I am absolutely sure is a TESSAVISION--others you might argue but not this one.
09-07-2000 12:25 PM
Misha
Dedicated Fan Registered: Feb 2000
he-he... no, I'm not that big conspiracy girl at all, but I do love to see them
Anyway, I do agree that, except for that kiss under the rain, every other scene with M/T together was made by Tess. And she dosen't need to be near to make them. I don't think she was that near to Pierce in White Room, for example.
You know, I almost felt sorry for her, but the point is, why did she give those "daydreams" to Max? I mean, he might be her mate and everything, but gees, you don't show yourself like that!! So, that made me think she is up to something besides fullfill her destiny... See? I can be a "little" conspiracy after all
Misha
09-07-2000 05:08 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
originally posted by Plumeria :
Why did Tess go to the library to retrieve the old book? She knew everyone was following her -- she could have pulled that book, without involving Kyle -- from a tree in the park and Max or Maria or whoever was currently spying would have seen it. What is in that book? An instruction manual for the pod squad for them to read when they got older? Or something else?
Plumeria : For a long time, I have thought the Saturn symbol was from the "bad guys". We see it on the cave wall on the top of the right branch of the V, opposite the whirlwind symbol. The whirlwind symbol is always done in blue, while the Saturn is done in fire (library lawn), and the promos also do it in the yellow/gold color. The book has the Saturn symbol on the cover and looks like it may have been through a fire. Could it be a book for the evil aliens to use to find the podsters? Could one of the SSers captured it and hidden it from the evil aliens? or was it hidden by an evil alien? How did Tess know about it? Did harding tell her, and did she remove it with his knowledge or approval?
I don't see any need for it to have been intended for the podsters themselves. They would have had the SSers to tell them anything they needed to know. If they couldn't read the language, it really wouldn't help them very much.
I am also very suspicious of Harding. If he really is Nasedo, RD told us in the Balance that the tribal elders thought he was an evil spirit and invited him to a sweat, which Eddie called a spiritual cleansing. When nasedo ran out and was sick, RD was told not to follow, but did anyway. Maybe it was only the heat that made Nasedo sick, but Michael seemed to be sick from the the smoke if you watch it carefully. Was Nasedo lying about what made him sick? Had the NA found out about not-so-good aliens centuries ago, and developed a method of detecting and eliminating them - the sweat? Something doesn't seem right. When we started to see more and more that yellow/gold seemed to symbolize the evil aliens, I started to think about the healing stones - which are yellow/gold - as are the pebbles in the tray at the Harding home(Liz hid the camera in them). Are these exceptions, or clues?
09-07-2000 10:19 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 19999
Palomino so you are beginning to think those little pebbles (yellow) are clues afterall remember you were teasing me about them awhile back LOL!!!!
09-08-2000 09:26 AM
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Palomino originally posted by Plumeria :
Why did Tess go to the library to retrieve the old book? She knew everyone was following her -- she could have pulled that book, without involving Kyle -- from a tree in the park and Max or Maria or whoever was currently spying would have seen it. What is in that book? An instruction manual for the pod squad for them to read when they got older? Or something else?
Plumeria : For a long time, I have thought the Saturn symbol was from the "bad guys". We see it on the cave wall on the top of the right branch of the V, opposite the whirlwind symbol. The whirlwind symbol is always done in blue, while the Saturn is done in fire (library lawn), and the promos also do it in the yellow/gold color. The book has the Saturn symbol on the cover and looks like it may have been through a fire. Could it be a book for the evil aliens to use to find the podsters? Could one of the SSers captured it and hidden it from the evil aliens? or was it hidden by an evil alien? How did Tess know about it? Did harding tell her, and did she remove it with his knowledge or approval? quote:
Back to the Blue/Gold symbolism...Palomino do you see this extending to M/L? Is this where the Liz = alien folk get the idea that Liz might be descended from (or is from) "evil" stock? NOTE: I'm thinking about that cafe rain kiss in TLV. If this is the case, then the production folk have done one fantastic job of consistency--and that is something for which I have not really given them credit (at least not to this degree).
LSS
09-08-2000 11:36 AM
richardken1
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
I believe that Tess shows two related powers.
One power is she can make a person see what is not there or vice versa, but the subject is aware of what is around him except for the part that Tess overrides. This may or may not be heard the tessovision sound. One example of this from 4S where Liz walked into the bathroom to find Tess. The tessovision sound depends on distance. The farther away a subject is the harder for her to maintain the illusion, therefor the sound. (IMHO the momogram from destiny is not a Tess powered illusion, but a prerecorded message that couldn't take account of Max having Liz as his soulmate instead of Tess. They already had hints of this from the dreams and daydreams.)
The second power is she can tap into there biologic programming and cause to dream or daydream this material. A perfect example of the scene where Max sets himself on fire. Max is not aware of his environment during experience. Another example of this is when Tess and Max are talking at the beginning of Max to the Max and she shows him the daydream of them kissing.
09-08-2000 08:20 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
LSS : If I remember correctly, Liz was done in red rather than yellow. Since she was not lit in the yellow color of the enemy, I took the red lighting to simply mean she was opposite of Max (alien vs. human). Contrasting them would show the incompatability of the relationship - pushing a M/T relationship.
GraceKel : I think it was back in early July when I joked about the pebbles, but I was serious too. I think that the pebbles are either from his homeworld or look like something from his home. I think it is less functional and more asthetic, maybe to help with homesickness, meditation, etc.
What I had joked about was their possible use as mini-healing stones. I had said maybe they could be taken internally as pills if one is not feeling well, and recycled a couple of days later.(Maybe those weren't candy Tic-tacs the other alien was eating, but mini-healing stones for an ailing or elderly alien.) They could also be used on small critters like gerbils.
Actually, I think they are more for looks than use. At the time of T,L,&VT, I think it was a clue that the Hardings were aliens as well. If they are "a touch of home" for nEDsado, it is rather sweet and "humanizing".
09-08-2000 08:30 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
LSS : If I remember correctly, Liz was done in red rather than yellow. Since she was not lit in the yellow color of the enemy, I took the red lighting to simply mean she was opposite of Max (alien vs. human). Contrasting them would show the incompatability of the relationship - pushing a M/T relationship.
GraceKel : I think it was back in early July when I joked about the pebbles, but I was serious too. I think that the pebbles are either from his homeworld or look like something from his home. I think it is less functional and more asthetic, maybe to help with homesickness, meditation, etc.
What I had joked about was their possible use as mini-healing stones. I had said maybe they could be taken internally as pills if one is not feeling well, and recycled a couple of days later.(Maybe those weren't candy Tic-tacs the other alien was eating, but mini-healing stones for an ailing or elderly alien.) They could also be used on small critters like gerbils.
Actually, I think they are more for looks than use. At the time of T,L,&VT, I think it was a clue that the Hardings were aliens as well. If they are "a touch of home" for nEDsado, it is rather sweet and "humanizing".
09-08-2000 08:50 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
I just rewatched 4sq and am convinced more than ever that the writers originally intended that Tess manufactured Max's pod vision of Tess using her images of Max as a boy that she saw in the Evans' kitchen with Diane. But that does not mean we are there now.
09-08-2000 11:25 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 19999
Shapeshifter I am so there right with you as you know---but why do you think they aren't still there---ya know they might drag us through the whole season waiting for that bombshell to drop because having her hang around causes OBSTACLES.
09-08-2000 11:52 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Interesting conversation, as usual One thing that was always kind of a clue to Tess's "true" personality was her reactions in the scene in TLV when Max comes to get Liz... she looks like she's taking an unholy delight in Liz and Max's discomfort... when they are trying to get away from the house and Harding is doing his psuedo friendly bit... "But the evening's not over" and all that. She has this rather evil grin on her face, as though she and Harding are sharing the fun of tormenting the two (she has to know that Liz is rather frightened!!! )
Just my 2cents....
09-09-2000 01:47 AM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
LSS, I'm sorry to bust in here, but something you said about colors with Palomino got head thinking about the colored lights. This probably belongs on THE REWIND and LIZ'S THREADS as opposed to here. It doesn't necessarily address the issue you were talking about, but I just have to get it off my chest.
There is something I feel that is needed to be said in regards to color. I am a fan of the color theories because it is an excellent example of how visuals add to the storyline.
I however curb much of my zeal when it comes to lights. I'm pretty unconvinced that the different color gels (that's a film put over the light to give the color) were done specifically to build up our backstories. If the same colors are consistantly being used to light a particular actor, then those colors are complimentary to the actor's skin tones and present gives us a better picture, think optical makeup.
Whenever we speak about the lighting used, consider there are pretty much three technical reasons with which production folks deal. 1) Establishes mood (most of our comments fall into this catergory).
2) Eliminate shadows (this is the lightning director's number one concern.) 3) FX lightning (there are more gadgets for lighting effects than you can possibly image)
My knowledge of studio lighting is very, very, limited, and this is really a HUGE area in which to wander. Lighting plans are very detailed and more complex than the dialog. As a result, given my almost pre-schoolish understanding, I've been very relucant to post on this subject.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
Clicking the ad.
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
[Edited by Qfanny on 09-09-2000 at 04:19 AM]
09-09-2000 02:07 AM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Orginally posted by October Granted, this ep is poorly edited and very choppy, so possibly some scenes were cut, however if we are to take the ep as we are given it, this could be important, in that Michael only gets these dreams when he is within a few feet of Iz. ------------ October: Why do you feel this was poorly edited? I did not get this feeling at all. I agree that there is almost a disjointed feel in the writing, but that is out of the editor's control.
Orginally posted by Shapeshifter I just rewatched 4sq and am convinced more than ever that the writers originally intended that Tess manufactured Max's pod vision of Tess using her images of Max as a boy that she saw in the Evans' kitchen with Diane. But that does not mean we are there now. --------------- Hey Shapeshifter, I agree. We have been told two versions of the same thing, one has to be wrong.
As far as Tess and Mrs Evans, was one of the pictures Tess looks at the whirlwind in the sand symbol? I think Tess came over to the Evans to get an idea if what she was thinking was true. That is, Max and Isabel were podster too. Mrs. Evans would have enough information to confirm Tess's suspicions, unbeknowst to herself.
Orginally posted by Lorrilei1960 One thing that was always kind of a clue to Tess's "true" personality was her reactions in the scene in TLV when Max comes to get Liz... she looks like she's taking an unholy delight in Liz and Max's discomfort. ---------------- Lorrilei, I agree! I would really like to know what their MO is at that moment. Pixiedude, I like what you said about Tess being a serious villian in Crazy and TLV.
For those that have asked me about the pictures of Max Evans.
I want to point out first, if those are candid pictures, then that's the best novice photographer I've ever seen.
Now, I can't say I know for certain whether they took some film and printed it out to paper or not. But if it were me, I would have primped and posed Jason and taken those shots with a real photographers and decent film. Those photos look professionally done. The fact that Jason seems to be wearing the same costumes as he does throughout TLV gives a timestamp. They have been taken that day or very recently. We know that during this time the POD SQUAD is being watched. Pierce could have hidden cameras everywhere. My biggest problem with the pictures is the quality is too good to be lifted from a survailance camera as we are meant to think. But then again, we aren't meant to fuss over such detail, are we?
From Nebraska Qfanny! Now go click! Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-09-2000 02:43 AM
Barrybud
Dedicated Fan Registered: Apr 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Palomino originally posted by Plumeria :
Why did Tess go to the library to retrieve the old book? She knew everyone was following her -- she could have pulled that book, without involving Kyle -- from a tree in the park and Max or Maria or whoever was currently spying would have seen it. What is in that book? An instruction manual for the pod squad for them to read when they got older? Or something else?
Plumeria : For a long time, I have thought the Saturn symbol was from the "bad guys". We see it on the cave wall on the top of the right branch of the V, opposite the whirlwind symbol. The whirlwind symbol is always done in blue, while the Saturn is done in fire (library lawn), and the promos also do it in the yellow/gold color. The book has the Saturn symbol on the cover and looks like it may have been through a fire. Could it be a book for the evil aliens to use to find the podsters? Could one of the SSers captured it and hidden it from the evil aliens? or was it hidden by an evil alien? How did Tess know about it? Did harding tell her, and did she remove it with his knowledge or approval?
I don't see any need for it to have been intended for the podsters themselves. They would have had the SSers to tell them anything they needed to know. If they couldn't read the language, it really wouldn't help them very much.
Hello LSS and SF of ... gang. I do more lurking here than posting, but I had some thoughts and comments that I would like express on topics touched so far. I was also making some of these same comments On an egroup this morning.
About the book Would it not be a good idea to send them a written history that tells of who they are and where they came from? Explaining their ppl,culture, heritage and languages. Maybe even religious and social beliefs. Some hard copy of proof that these ppl did indeed exsist. So as not to forget their hopes dreams and achievements. Why is it so hard to believe that this book could be real?
It makes sense that Harding told Tess where the book was. So she give to the others maybe as a peace offereing, and to show she was on their side.
*someone commented that the book may be for that evil ones. The pics of them inside, kind of a wanted poster. Good thought!
About the Kiss & Visions I too think the Kiss was for real. There was no sound effect during the kiss, that has come to tell us of powers in use. And also the flash. He may have been drawn to her because of what they may have shared in the past.Before Earth, Roswell and Liz. Although I do believe that she is sending him certain visions. I am still up in the air abt her involvement with the Mi/I sex/baby vision.
About the long/short hair issue. If Tess had just looked at all the early pic of them, would it not be careless of her to make a mistake like that? Now I cant think if they say how much time passed between hatching and being adopted by the Evans, but that kind of hair growth would take 3-5 years.
Well, thats all for now. I truly enjoy these threads! Barry
09-09-2000 06:50 AM IP: Logged
nightshadow
Fan Registered: Aug 2000
Has anyone discussed or is there another thread that discusses why Max and Michael squares have a line joining them the same as Isabel and Tess's but M/T and M/I don't?
09-09-2000 07:22 AM IP: Logged
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Nightshadow : i thought the 4sq symbol was rather like a turntable. All the pods were equally connected to each other by the middle. To ad more lines would have been redundant and too "busy".
Originally posted by Barrybud :
About the book Would it not be a good idea to send them a written history that tells of who they are and where they came from? Explaining their ppl,culture, heritage and languages. Maybe even religious and social beliefs. Some hard copy of proof that these ppl did indeed exsist. So as not to forget their hopes dreams and achievements. Why is it so hard to believe that this book could be real?
Barrybud : The Mommogram was in English, because they had apparently picked America for the hatching and raising (good choice right after WWII). Shouldn't the book have been in English, also if it had been for the podsters? If a SSer was suposed to give them the book, why couldn't the SSers simply explain things themselves? The Saturn on the front is one of the most suspicious things about it, because it does seem to be a negative symbol. Are you good at IDing cars? Does anybody drive a Saturn, especially in the last five episodes? (Dr. M., Pierce) Just a thought that's been nagging me.
09-09-2000 08:08 AM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Here I go again. I was about to sign out when something occurred to me. This could have already been mentioned.
Short/Long Hair Isabel: As suggested by other posters (perhaps even myself) we rationalize the reason child Isabel has long hair because Tess is creating the memory for Max. Tess only knows what Isabel looks like today, so child Isabel got long hair.
Are we forgetting about the fact Mrs. Evans showed childhood pictures of Max and Isabel to Tess? She should know exactly what Max and Isabel look like. Under the assumption that this pod hatching memory is false and a Tessavision, why would Tess make such a blunder??? Maybe that was the point of the whole trip to the Evans.
As far as the alien language of the book and the English language of the Mommy-gram, it makes a lot more sense to me that the book is the correct language. M/M/I were telepathic when they first hatched and then later they learned English. I never have understood why a telepathic race would try to deliver such an important message with vocal communication during the Mommy-gram (unless Liz needed to hear it too). I think that a telepathic race, perhaps unfamiliar with any form of vocal communication, would find it next to impossible to correlate their exact meaning to the podsters. Why do this when M/M/I have and probably still can communicate without words????
Clicking From Nebraska Qfanny!
09-09-2000 08:09 AM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
GraceKel, Lorrilei1960, Qf, et al, Re the Evans family photo album and Tess's visions masquerading as Max's memories: quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny ... As far as Tess and Mrs Evans, was one of the pictures Tess looks at the whirlwind in the sand symbol?...
Good point, Detective Qfanny! We know from the RD & 285 south eps that there are definitely pictures of those symbols as little M&M made them in the sand, even if my tv station signals are too poor to see them in TLV.
GraceKel, I agree that the writers might still intend to follow the story line of Tess manufacturing Max's memories but thatquote:
Originally posted by GraceKel they might drag us through the whole season waiting for that bombshell to drop because having her hang around causes OBSTACLES
But I also think they might not go that way. Maybe it's because they turned Evil Sheriff into Angel Sheriff, and now have lots of other enemies out there that I would not be surprised if they decide to have the memories be real, or at least closer to reality than was originally intended when they wrote 4sq.
And on the subject of the reality of the book: quote:
Originally posted by Palomino Barrybud : The Mommogram was in English, because they had apparently picked America for the hatching and raising ...Shouldn't the book have been in English, also if it had been for the podsters?
Palomino, excellent! That is, excellent unless the writers didn't think of that. But it definitely could indicate that the book was created by a group who was not privy to the language or location of the podsters. Now I'm thinking of Harding's line about looking for them for a long time. Again, in the minds of writers at that time, Harding was probably evil and didn't know where they were. The Buddha was from Myanmar (southeast Asia).
So, re the book, How aboutand correct me if I've got something wrong), Michael uses the map from RD's cave to determine that the Library is a key location. Mi&Is send the fireglow symbol message from the Library right before Tess & her dad show up; in fact in 4sq when Max finally learns of this, he accuses them of leading the evil shapeshifter (Tess) right to them. So, there are lots of possibilities here for a runaway imagination. For instance, maybe Tess makes the book appear to come from the library because she thinks that will give it credibility with Michael and/or it will give the map credibility. Ooo, I'm thinking of RD being a plotter now; maybe the map was fabricated on the spur of the moment because they knew a podster might be coming out to the reservation (if she/he passed the test).
09-09-2000 08:11 AM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Qfanny, do Mrs. Evans' pictures of little Isabel have short hair?
09-09-2000 08:22 AM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
She has a videotape of Isabel with short hair, why not a photograph??
Clicking From Nebraska Qfanny!
09-09-2000 08:34 AM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Re the hair of the little podsters: I actually thought at one point that they should have all had long hair. The only reason to have the boys come out with short hair would be if they were supposed to be found and raised by humans. Sounds pretty risky to me--look who Michael got. And I don't even want to think about what would happen to 6 year-old girls according to the evening news. This makes me think that in the original plan the Evans were 'chosen' and that perhaps Liz, Alex, Maria (and maybe even Kyle) were supposed to be their mates.
09-09-2000 09:07 AM IP: Logged
tinkrbell
Fan Registered: Sep 2000
Iím a new poster, so forgive me if this has been mentioned before. What I donít understand is if Nasedo was on the ship and Tess was in the pod that both crashed NEAR ROSWELL, why did it take them so long to find M/I/Mi? Wouldnít Roswell have been the first place to look? Why would Nasedo have picked up Tess near the cave and not considered that the others were nearby also? Why go looking across the world?
This to me indicates that a)Nasedo and Tess are both from the evil race because they had no idea where to find M/I/Mi, no idea where the ship crashed and have been combing the planet for our trio all these years (hence the traveling job and souvenirs from southeast Asia) just like the supposed rest of the bad race we see at the end of Destiny. And therefore b)Maxís vision of Tess in the pod from 4S HAS to be a Tessovision because she was never in the cave or she would have found them all years ago.
Of course the problem with that theory is why would an evil-alien Nasedo turn around and warn Max not to use the communicators? Unless it was reverse psychology.
I agree that the Saturn symbol is not friendly and the book is a possible plant by the bad race designed to confuse and destabilize the bond between the pod squad, making them vulnerable.
Sorry if this was a little off topic to TLV and 4S but itís been bugging me.
09-09-2000 03:46 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by tinkrbell ...What I donít understand is if Nasedo was on the ship and Tess was in the pod that both crashed NEAR ROSWELL, why did it take them so long to find M/I/Mi? Wouldnít Roswell have been the first place to look? Why would Nasedo have picked up Tess near the cave and not considered that the others were nearby also? Why go looking across the world?
This to me indicates that a)Nasedo and Tess are both from the evil race because they had no idea where to find M/I/Mi, no idea where the ship crashed and have been combing the planet for our trio all these years (hence the traveling job and souvenirs from southeast Asia) just like the supposed rest of the bad race we see at the end of Destiny. And therefore b)Maxís vision of Tess in the pod from 4S HAS to be a Tessovision because she was never in the cave or she would have found them all years ago....
tinkerbell, It's always good to see new variations on some of our old themes discovered anew and independently; it gives them more credibility. Too bad the writers aren't checking with us for credibility--or maybe it's just as well.
Anyway, in 4sq we see the Tessovision of Tess being left behind. Many of us have (er, um, at least I have) speculated that Harding/Nasedo got to the pod chamber a day late and 3 podsters short. But, you're right, this doesn't jive with lots of things, such as Harding's comment that he'd been looking for Michael et al for a long time. Of course, maybe he'd been on Earth since the time of that Buddha (300 yrs) and discovering any of the podsters was a relatively recent event.
And, in case it's not obvious, I currently believe that even if Tess was a podster left behind by the other 3, that she still fabricated and planted the vision in Max's 'memory.'
09-09-2000 07:13 PM IP: Logged
bkwrm79-Stargazer
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
A book in English would make sense. Perhaps even a pair of books- one in English and one in Alienese, just for the sake of showing them what their own language looks like. Maybe there is a missing book- the English version- out there somewhere? It would not only tell the Podsters an enormous amount by itself, but it would function as a kind of Rosetta Stone when paired with the book they have now.
09-09-2000 11:33 PM IP: Logged
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
I know this has been said before, but it bears repeating (at least to me... ). I think that the reason the podsters couldn't read the book, was because they had been hatched too early, and missed the sleep-learning/programming portion which taught them the written language... or ... they were fully cooked when hatched, but the pods malfunctioned and the written language part got scrambled. (hmmmmm, a computer scrambling information?!? I don't believe it ) I just can't see the aliens leaving the acquisition of their written language by the podsters to chance. It must have been in the plan... don't you think?
09-10-2000 12:11 AM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Okay, it's way too late, but here's another theory: The book contains the plan of the evil/enemy aliens to manipulate MM&I away from their real destiny: to connect with humans which will somehow save us all. If MMorI (or Liz or...?) ever learn to read the book, they will discover it is the Manual on How to Deceive the Podsters.
09-10-2000 02:49 AM IP: Logged
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Lorrilei1960 : I agree something went wrong with the hatching. M/M/I all recognized the whirlwind symbol, but did not know what it meant. Max said the cave symbols were familiar, but couldn't remember what they meant. Tess said it was all in the book and gave it to them. It seemed that she expected them to be able to read it, even though they had not been raised by an SSer. I think she was assuming they had their programming, and the podsters didn't realize they were suposed to be able to read it. I think when Max met her after school at her locker, Tess was smug because she thought he now understood their destiny. When we saw them next, she was not as smug, and was having to explain even simple things to Max. She seemed to soften a little as if she finally understood why he wasn't all over her, but she seemed surprised(pleasantly) when he said he was having dreams and asked if that was how they bred. (I think from his expression, and Max is not a good liar, that he was lying so he could find out for Isabel if this could have gotten her pregnant.)
Back to the book : Why not leave it in the pod chamber? Why does it have an evil symbol on it? Did nasedo capture it from the bad guys? If it was really part of the map in the cave, then Nasedo put it there before 1959 when he left the drawings. If he got it from the enemy, then the enemy was around before 1959.
I think we are all expecting explainations as soon as the season begins, but don't be surprised if we never get one for many things.
09-10-2000 05:45 AM IP: Logged
uriah
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
Okay I'm back again and I must say that the ideas that spring forth from this thread are amazing some of them I would never have thought of, and yet they all seem to fit some way or another...
Anyway I know this may have been done to death previously but as a reader of the books and a wathcher of the series I would have to conclude that when Nasedo got there and the podsters had already hoofed it without Tess he though it would be better for them and safer if he just stayed away.
He knew that the FBI were on his trail and he could not risk them all getting caught. The whole no contact thing could simply be a protective ploy as well as perhaps a way of further developing their human nature.
As for the book no doubt in my mind it's real I mean the whole navitgation of the symbols in Blind Date and then the returning to the scene in 4sq it's too obvious not to be real, but I don't thinkl that the book is meant for the podsters at all but for nasedo and the other aliens to know wht to expect when raising them much like an instructuion manual.
See this is my theory,
The alien ship was sent to earth to hibernate the pods the aliens were suppossed to rasie the hatchlings covertly as a family until they were ready to reveal there true purpose to them and proceed with the mission form there.
They hadn't counted on the crash and this is where the plan started to go wrong, knowing that the govt knew about the existence of aliens and what they would do Nasedo had to somehow lead the humans away with somehow keeping tabs on them.
All this time he's known exactly where they were just waiting for the right time. However we are all aware that Nasedo is just a 'commoner' and perhaps was not fully aware of the entire plan and not privilage to all information therefore when he arrived to find just Tess he took her with him so that he could learn from her just as much as he could teach her.
I mean it is unsure what the actual role Nasedo played back on their home planet for all we know he could've been the cook.
But back to my rather long winded point, yes I think the book is real.
09-10-2000 05:49 AM IP: Logged
uriah
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
oh and another thing
I think that Nasedo seperated everything (the cave with the map, pods, book) so that the information would be safe if the wrong people or aliens found it they wouldn't have all the peices to lead them back to the pod squad
09-10-2000 06:58 AM IP: Logged
TeddyBehr_Y2K
Dedicated Fan Registered: May 2000
I have a question for all of you who have watched these eppy's like a hawk as i have. Now, in TLV, Alex has to find a warehouse that is within range so they can watch the signal. Now, I want to know, where was Pierce when he was watching the camera when it was in Michael's apartment? I'd appreciate it if I could get an answer to this one.
09-10-2000 08:28 AM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by TeddyBehr_Y2K I have a question for all of you who have watched these eppy's like a hawk as i have. Now, in TLV, Alex has to find a warehouse that is within range so they can watch the signal. Now, I want to know, where was Pierce when he was watching the camera when it was in Michael's apartment? I'd appreciate it if I could get an answer to this one.
Um, how 'bout if he was in the Harding's backroom? Sorry guys, I'm still thinking of the suits and the dude with the AK-47 before they moved in. After all, Harding could have been a double agent before Destiny.
09-10-2000 09:30 AM IP: Logged
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
TeddtBehr_Y2K : Pierce could have been anywhere close - we don't know anything about Michael's neighborhood. We also don't know the range of the camera's transmitter. He could even have been in a van down the street.
Uriah : I agree that Harding had decided to leave the other podsters alone for their own safety. If the crash had not happened, I think the four aliens would have made two family units, and each one would have raised two children. Or one couple would have raised all four, and two aliens would be like guards or scouts to protect the family.
I think the podsters had to have human DNA to appear as humans. We don't know at what age SSers develop their ability to shift - maybe the podsters even can eventually. Anyway, it would be impossible to hide kids that looked like aliens, or try to fit into the neighborhood when little SSers are shifting at the playground, mall, or kintergarden. Easy way to lose a mischievious child too. Wise choice to MAKE them look human.
Anyhow, when Harding found only one, and the others then turned up in human homes, it was smart to leave them there. Abducting three kids and running with four little six year olds while evading the FBI would have been disasterous. Leading the FBI and whoever else away, while protecting only one, was easier for Harding. I also don't think Harding's parenting skills were up to it. I can just imagine the alternate Harding household : Tess is jumping on the furniture, Michael is doodling on the walls, Isabel is terrorizing the neighbor kids, and Max is stuck up in a tree. Harding would not have had the patience for them by himself. He might have been releaved to see they had been placed in homes.
By the way, I don't think Harding was supposed to raise them, I kind of think Tic-tac was the designated daddy of the group.
09-10-2000 09:43 AM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Palomino ...I also don't think Harding's parenting skills were up to it. I can just imagine the alternate Harding household : Tess is jumping on the furniture, Michael is doodling on the walls, Isabel is terrorizing the neighbor kids, and Max is stuck up in a tree. Harding would not have had the patience for them by himself. He might have been relieved to see they had been placed in homes. ...
Of course this brings up Michael's situation again. So, agreeing with you, Palomino (although it's much more fun to disagree with you ) how about if Harding thought Michael would be 'toughened up' for battle, Hank as Drill Sargeant so to speak. I'm even thinking of Max referring to Hank as "tough." Harding allowing this situation to continue would be in keeping with Harding's habit of silver handprinting when "necessary." And, as I stated elsewhere, Harding's comment about looking for the podsters for a long time could be placed on a timeline dating from the age of the 300-yr-old Buddha, meaning when they arrived in this century he was quite relieved.
09-10-2000 09:56 AM IP: Logged
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Hmmmmm.... this makes me wonder exactly when the Earth had been scouted by the aliens; when they chose the Earth as their destination; and how long it took them to get here.
If they had done a fairly recent fly-by, they would have seen an Earth embroiled in a world wide war... WWII ended (at least for the US) in 1945. While there was no fighting on the North American continent, it still would have been foolish to send a ship full of infant podlings to a planet which had just demonstrated its tendency to try to mass exterminate each other... and had just discovered the joys of nuclear explosions! Any mama in her right mind would have picked any place but here... which leads me to believe that they had picked this place long before (had to be early in, or even before the 20th century... WW I... then an economic depression... then WWII).
09-10-2000 10:10 AM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
oops
[Edited by Qfanny on 09-10-2000 at 10:14 AM]
09-10-2000 10:10 AM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Once again I can count on my fellow SciFi posters to bring new ideas. I agree with you Uriah that all the alien artifacts had to be seperated for safety reasons. Could this also be the reason for different languages of the artifact. The mommogram was in English, the book in Twilonese.
I also agree with your assessment Palomino of the Harding household had all four podsters been found at the same time by Harding. Franky, I had to smile at the thought.
But the topic has now turned to Pierce (yeah). I asked in my first post on this thread where everyone thought he was in the episode 4S. He seems to be gone. In Crazy and TLV, Pierce is leaving a clues here and there, but we don't see this in 4S? Why???
I am hoping that viewing Max to the Max will help me out. Can't wait until tomorrow. (Inspite of my horror of clowns.)
From Nebraska Qfanny!
Now go click.
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-10-2000 10:29 AM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960
If they had done a fairly recent fly-by, they would have seen an Earth embroiled in a world wide war... WWII ended (at least for the US) in 1945. While there was no fighting on the North American continent, it still would have been foolish to send a ship full of infant podlings to a planet which had just demonstrated its tendency to try to mass exterminate each other... and had just discovered the joys of nuclear explosions!
Lorrilei1960: I really think you have something here. I have a confession to make. About two months ago I went over to Blockbuster and rented a documentary called the Roswell incident. In part of the documentary, they were showing on maps how close the nuclear testing was to Roswell. Assuming that some basic research was done with a fly-by, during the WWII period, I cannot see them deciding to set up housekeeping near a nuclear testing ground. Even though I haven't seen much speculation on the location of the pod chamber, I am beginning to believe that Roswell was not randomly chosen, and that there is some sort of direct correlation between the nuclear testing done in the area and our storyline. But to what end I cannot determine. Maybe it takes a gigantic release of energy to "activate" the pod chamber. Maybe the ship was investigating the area and ran into trouble.
Why would the pod chamber be close to Roswell, NM as opposed to any other town? There has to be a reason.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
clicking
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-10-2000 10:32 AM IP: Logged
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Pierce... he was probably lurking in the bushes... waiting for his opportunity to snap a pic of Max. Ewwwwww... that just gave me a really disgusting thought. Please, help me wipe that image from my mind
09-10-2000 10:40 AM IP: Logged
*RoswellMel*
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
cool hot
Amelia
09-10-2000 11:07 AM IP: Logged
Reggie
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Lorrilei1960 One thing that was always kind of a clue to Tess's "true" personality was her reactions in the scene in TLV when Max comes to get Liz... she looks like she's taking an unholy delight in Liz and Max's discomfort... when they are trying to get away from the house and Harding is doing his psuedo friendly bit... "But the evening's not over" and all that. She has this rather evil grin on her face, as though she and Harding are sharing the fun of tormenting the two (she has to know that Liz is rather frightened!!!)
I agree that that's an interesting Tess scene; one of my favorites, in fact. I don't read it as you do, though. She's remaining quiet throughout, but her reactions are great! Max comes to the door, and of course she's smiling. (Ladies, any arguments as to why? ) Notice at one point, just after the middle, she has a flicker of puzzlement. Just the slightest flicker, then we get a big smile. She has caught on to the fact that this is a put-up job; Max and Liz have a conspiracy going! And, it must have been formed completely while Liz was there under her eyes - Liz had no way of knowing that Mr. H would insist she stay for dinner. Liz may be frightened, but she's not frozen: she's gotten a handle on the situation. Tess is enjoying the ad-hoc teamwork as a performance, plus it shows off (her) Max in a good light: he's loyal, sharp, and thinks well under pressure. (Kudos to Emilie, BTW: great acting.)
Max also goes for a gal that shares those traits. Tess may see a resemblence in herself to Liz. We don't realy know what she's loyal to, except her "father", but she does seem to be smart, and think well under pressure. Tess may be seeing her prospects rise, even as Max rescues Liz from Tess's "father".
Now, Tess's worst scene is in 4 Square, with the sugar cubes. Creeping up Isabel's back, and crooning cryptic comments in her ear?
09-10-2000 11:45 AM IP: Logged
Reggie
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
quote:
Originally posted by TeddyBehr_Y2K I have a question for all of you who have watched these eppy's like a hawk as i have. Now, in TLV, Alex has to find a warehouse that is within range so they can watch the signal. Now, I want to know, where was Pierce when he was watching the camera when it was in Michael's apartment? I'd appreciate it if I could get an answer to this one.
Could be anywhere. The usual practice, AFIK, is to place a repeater, or booster transmitter, close by. The repeater has enough range to send the signal to a convenient monitoring location. Alex didn't have access to one, or didn't bother to produce one; the FBI one has not been found yet.
09-10-2000 11:58 PM IP: Logged
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
quote:
Originally posted by Reggie
I agree that that's an interesting Tess scene; one of my favorites, in fact. I don't read it as you do, though. She's remaining quiet throughout, but her reactions are great! Max comes to the door, and of course she's smiling. (Ladies, any arguments as to why? ) Notice at one point, just after the middle, she has a flicker of puzzlement. Just the slightest flicker, then we get a big smile. She has caught on to the fact that this is a put-up job; Max and Liz have a conspiracy going! And, it must have been formed completely while Liz was there under her eyes - Liz had no way of knowing that Mr. H would insist she stay for dinner. Liz may be frightened, but she's not frozen: she's gotten a handle on the situation. Tess is enjoying the ad-hoc teamwork as a performance, plus it shows off (her) Max in a good light: he's loyal, sharp, and thinks well under pressure. (Kudos to Emilie, BTW: great acting.)
Max also goes for a gal that shares those traits. Tess may see a resemblence in herself to Liz. We don't realy know what she's loyal to, except her "father", but she does seem to be smart, and think well under pressure. Tess may be seeing her prospects rise, even as Max rescues Liz from Tess's "father".
Now, Tess's worst scene is in 4 Square, with the sugar cubes. Creeping up Isabel's back, and crooning cryptic comments in her ear?
OK, Reggie... your take on that scene also makes sense (and I have noted your rather favorable reactions to the Tessster ) And I think the Four Square scene, with Tess whispering in Isabel's ear, is sort of a clue to her mind manipulation. Isabel said later that she seemed to loose a few minutes (or something to that effect). It was kind of creepy though...
09-11-2000 04:11 AM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
I'm really taking a chance posting right now instead of running to work. But here are some new thoughts of on Tess's powers.
Whomever stated that Tess had a pretty big bag of tricks, I agree totatly.
What started out to be the long/short hair Isabel debate has led me to think that Tess doesn't need to know what someone looks like to make her Tessovisions.
I have speculated that the reason why Tess goes over to the Evans is to get Mrs. Evans to show family pictures of Isabel and Max. This way when she plants the "false" hatching memory into Max's head she'll know what they looked like so it would be believed.
I don't think she needs to know this type of information in order to do this trick. For in Destiny, she uses her powers to really project Pierce to two agents. She doesn't have the advantage (as far as we know) of knowing what Pierce looks like. Somehow, I think she probes her subjects mind and lifts the information she needs in order to make it believable. So, rather, it is the subject that controls what a Tessovision would look like.... (shudder) I think I gave so more validity to the Mommogram's autheticity.
From Nebraska Qfanny
Please click ads! Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-11-2000 05:04 AM IP: Logged
Miss Roswell
Addicted Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by allie0875 Hey everyone!
In TLV, did anyone notice the 2nd and 3rd "Max" pictures that Liz looked at from the box? The 2nd picture looked like it was taken after the daydream that Max had about Tess while kissing Liz in the backroom at the Crashdown. The 3rd picture looks like it was taken after the daydream Max had about Tess in the Chemistry room. He even has the same shirt on and you can see the light and beakers in the picture. This suggests that someone else had to be in the room or someone else was watching them when Max had these visions. Could that be the person that gave Max the visions and not Tess Beth
I am shocked that someone else saw that too!! I had a Roswell marathon this weekend and I noticed it, and I was like "OMG, if Tess didn't to this then who did?" Since Nasado can ss into walls and such maybe it was him?
I don't know, but I never noticed the exact placement of Max when those pics were taken. Although, we have found inconsistencies before with Roswell, so maybe no one thought we would catch it???
Crystal
09-11-2000 08:44 AM IP: Logged
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 19999
I'm one of the people who think the Hardings are of the enemy and the book is a fake, meant to bolster Tess's authority (for that purpose, not all of it needs to be readable). Notice how she retrieves it like the Ten Commandments from atop the mountain. It fits the pattern of the devil's three temptations of Christ: first appeal to the appetites, then to your target's more specific motivations (Michael's need for answers and affinity for maps, Isabel's social and maternal feelings, Max's sense of responsibility and sympathy for small wounded or helpless creatures -- notice how the Tessovision appeals to that); lastly, a false appeal to the authority of The Book.
I also have the impression H. has been searching for the podsters for a long time. (I don't assume he arrived on the 1947 ship.) Notice that the moving company marked on his boxes was Mayflower, named after a ship that arrived over 300 years ago.
Last time around we noted a lot of symbolism suggesting evil, temptation, the demonic, etc. surrounding the Hardings. (Moreover, their very names should be telling us something.) The shoe-service sign cropped to VICE, etc. It was funny when the school administrator said questions about Tess needed to be referred to the vice principal. (emphasis was in the original)
Palomino, about cars: tonight's abduction-mobile is a Chrysler; they made a point of showing us that, on the driver's door.
Funny, the mention of a snake and a clown. In MTTM we see the clown; we get to guess about the snake.
09-11-2000 08:46 AM IP: Logged
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 19999
(from The Convention)
Don't the props in this fighting ring look symbolic of the two adult aliens (left and right corners, presumably TicTac and Harding) as adversaries, in the presence of the three podsters and the pod-cave mountian? The layout is also reminiscent of the map.
Also, it was pointed out that Raging Ray's vicious-looking warmup was staged in front of a big Saturn symbol.
[Edited by Nemo on 09-11-2000 at 08:55 AM]
09-11-2000 09:35 AM IP: Logged
47born
Fan Registered: Aug 2000
I have just been reading this thread and have some questions and comments.
If Tess went to the Evans home and got Mrs. Evans to show her what Max and Is looked like when they were young so she could make Max believe she was a podster, where did she get her image of Micheal as a child? I am a firm believer that the pod scene was a Tess induced vision.
As for the book, remember that in TWR Micheal told Nasedo "I didn't get the manual". How were the podsters supposed to have information they needed when they became old enough?
In TLV when they show the person (Pierce?)watching the monitor of the camera in Micheals apartment, notice the lights in the area, they are like the lights that Liz has on the balcony. I speculate they could be at the Crashdown or the UFO Center where Max works.
It seems that since Tess showed up, she had all the answers.Some of this coming from Nasedo but also the book. She keeps telling Max all the answers are in the book. At the end of Destiny, she looks at Max and asks the question "What happens now Max?" She should know the answers, she has known everything else or so she leads the podsters to believe she did.
Hope this makes sense, but it is just some of my observations.
09-11-2000 10:21 AM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
47born, I also thought about how would Tess know what Michael looked like as a child, and, wanting to believe she did create Max's "memories," I decided that there were pictures of him in the album too since they had been friends. Still, it seems that if the writers wanted viewers to jump to this conclusion, they would have had Mrs. Evans say something like, "oh, and there's Michael." But I think the writers like to keep their options open to the extreme, which is actually more realistic anyway.
09-11-2000 11:23 AM IP: Logged
LSS
Crazed Fan Registered: Feb 2000
quote:
Originally posted by 47born It seems that since Tess showed up, she had all the answers.Some of this coming from Nasedo but also the book. She keeps telling Max all the answers are in the book. At the end of Destiny, she looks at Max and asks the question "What happens now Max?" She should know the answers, she has known everything else or so she leads the podsters to believe she did.
Hi 47born:
I must say that when Tess asks Max about the future I did not see her words as a reflection of her ignorance as much as I did of a female-male/subordinate-dominant kind of thing. I mean you get the impression of Max standing upright wind in his hair looking out over the expanse of desert while diminutive Tess stand beside him looking up inquiringly at his face. Barf. (Opps--did I say that, sorry my dreamgirl soul is peeking out on the wrong thread).
Seriously--this is why some folk who liked Tess earlier in the season were dissappointed about how her character turned out by Destiny. I don't think, however, that that last scene reflects some "hole" in her knowledge--it is not that she is empty of answers, simply that she wants her big strong ole predetermined mate to give them to her. (Okay now I am seriously nauseous).
LSS
P.S. Sorry but all the promos are finally getting to me in spite of our LA reassurances. Sigh--3 more weeks.
09-11-2000 05:00 PM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
Nemo: Thanks for that post on TC. It's been so long since I've seen it, I just about forgotten the fight scene. Naturally, I agree with your assessment. I particulary enjoy reading about your Christ theories.
quote:
oringinally posted by 47born If Tess went to the Evans home and got Mrs. Evans to show her what Max and Is looked like when they were young so she could make Max believe she was a podster, where did she get her image of Micheal as a child? I am a firm believer that the pod scene was a Tess induced vision.
I posted this morning rather quickly and I don't know if I was exactly clear. It's now my opinion Tess doesn't need this information at all do the mind trick thingy. But now I'm back where I started: trying to figure out why Max would have two different memories. ((Man-- I feel like I've reached full circle.))
LSS: I made the mistake last night of watching Destiny. My heart aches yet.
From Nebraska Qfanny
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
[Edited by Qfanny on 09-11-2000 at 07:12 PM]
09-11-2000 06:39 PM IP: Logged
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Nemo : Thank you for the Chrysler info. Is their symbol like the Destiny beepers?
Also, Mayflower is a real and common mover. I doubt if this is a clue. I'm not even sure the artifacts or antiques are a clue, because they may have belonged to the real Harding. Valenti had him checked out, and I'm sure the army did too. It would be much safer to assume the identity of a real person than create one. The real Ed Harding probably has a silver iron-on and is sleeping with the worms - also probably his daughter.
09-11-2000 06:47 PM IP: Logged
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Palomino, If that's true, it throws out our nifty "Sheila" clue. (hey, I rhymed... I'm off to join sandman's thread ) The real Harding could have had a wife named Sheila... and the real daughter could have had a mom named Sheila.
09-11-2000 07:15 PM IP: Logged
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
Palomino, Lorrillei, et al, Hmmm. On the subject of the 'real' Hardings, let's not forget Tess's mother, Sheila. Of course, it's possible that one of the writers has a girlfriend named Sheila. And I sure wouldn't know that was her name if it wasn't posted on the board, because my tv reception is too snowy. Still, also thinking about how protective Harding was of his artifacts. Could they hide/house things of greater significance to aliens?
09-11-2000 07:27 PM IP: Logged
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
I'm a dog chasing my tail. I can't make up my mind about Tess' powers. From the opening scenes in MttM, it made clear that Tess and Harding have encountered the Pierce before. Even if that weren't so, Harding would certainly teach Tess to recognize Pierce by sight. That would be for her own protection. So, I have no problem now with her powers in Destiny. She knows who Pierce is, perhaps, more than what we are told.
So, Qfanny, how does this relate to 4S?
If Tess currupted Max's memory (and in MttM, Isabel's memory) of the hatching, then it may very well be necessary for her to have a real "visual" image of Max, Michael, and Isabel as children. Without it, how could she pass of the vision for real?
I maintain Mrs. Evans provided that. Shapeshifter explained that more than likely, there were photos of Michael too in the album. Now, we know from previous episdoes, that Max and Isabel were seperated from Michael for three years. During the span of three years, Isabel's hair could have grown to the length of child Isabel.
Biologically, the growth from age 6 to age 9 doesn't offer a lot of changes. Sure, kids get taller, but not much else changes. I think Mrs Evans was showing Tess pictures of Max, Isabel and Michael at age 9. It wouldn't have been too hard to image them a bit shorter, but Isabel's hair length remained the same length.
So for everyone that participated in short/long hair child Isabel and whether Tess caused the long hair version, I hope this helps. (That includes myself.)
Now, as far as why Max would believe a different memory, I think that these latter episodes show the podsters in a lot of self doubt. They are uncertain about everything. And that too can include memories. Maybe they figure it out again in season two.
clicking from Nebraska Qfanny!
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-11-2000 09:33 PM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 19999
As for the name Sheila, the writers have so often used names to convey part of the story, maybe this one too. Sheila is a variant of Cecilia. And, as musicians know, St. Cecilia (a martyr) is traditionally associated with the organ. But 'organ' obviously has an alternative, biological sense, that springs to mind in the present context. Perhaps this is reaching, but it seems to fit with the conjecture that Sheila Hubble was killed for reasons related to biology and genetics.
[Edited by Nemo on 09-15-2000 at 07:45 AM]
09-11-2000 10:11 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 19999
Nemo I love it I love it--all Tess questions will have to be referred to the VICE principle LOL!!!!!I missed that one. Nemo I also posted a long time ago on the Liz Import thread about the clown and the snake---and lets not forget the VOODOO music-"feel the SNAKE bite into my veins..." Remember in Blind Date also Liz tells KROZ101 Radio man "I'm not really into CLOWNS!" And then Mrs Evans mentioning them putting on that clown show and Max caught that snake.
Did anyone else notice that Tess did not even turn around and knew Max was coming to her locker---must be that THIRD EYE LOL!!! Also did anyone else notice the SHIFTY look on her face just as she is about to close her locker---and did you notice the silouette pics inside of people kissing and hugging????? I think you have to SLO-MO to see them clearly LOL!!!!
Palomino that was not my take on the outing in M2TM between Tess and Max at all, Tess looked SURPRISED? I did not read it that way. She knows she has been feeding him SEX fantasies about her but she was trying to act innocent---you've been having dreams about you and me? OH PLEEAAASSSEEE!
And you said the ANTIQUES aren't important? The way Harding carried on about them "BE CAREFUL" Guarding them like they were parts to his alien spaceship or something.
Nemo did you notice right after Tess gets out of the jeep--of course we have discussed the No SUB sign but if you stay in SLO MO for a few more beats ---the word SALE in big letters as Max is driving away---yeah she is selling something isn't she.
09-11-2000 11:29 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
I have to agree that Tess didn't look surprised at Max's "confession" about having dreams... she looked more like the cat that swallowed the canary... or like she was confirming what she already knew to be true.
09-12-2000 02:28 AM
Nemo
Addicted Fan Registered: Dec 19999
Here are a few more scenes involving orange and blue light that may be clues.
from Destiny. Everyone but Tess is on the blue side.
from Missing: Something startles Liz as she walks home apprehensively (shortly after Grandma's death). The orange light close to her comes from one of those "Don't Walk" signs that looks like an impending handprint attack. (In this sequence, camera angles and long lenses are used to bring several of those glowing orange hands close around Liz.) But closer to her there is a blue light. I can only hope it symbolizes a guardian.
from 4-Square. On arrival at school, Tess goes to the women's room; the entry is bathed in orange light. Before following, Liz pauses briefly with Max, as seen here. Note the bluish glare behind her: when she backs away from Max this gets uncovered, beginning at her eye level, almost as if her eye is giving off a strong beam of light. Is this suggesting something? Maybe, that she's on the side of right, and has an important power of discernment? Or something else?
[Edited by Nemo on 09-12-2000 at 02:34 AM]
09-12-2000 10:49 AM
SF
Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 19999
Hi Qfanny
This is horribly late, but...
quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny About two months ago I went over to Blockbuster and rented a documentary called the Roswell incident. In part of the documentary, they were showing on maps how close the nuclear testing was to Roswell. ...I cannot see them deciding to set up housekeeping near a nuclear testing ground. Even though I haven't seen much speculation on the location of the pod chamber, I am beginning to believe that Roswell was not randomly chosen, and that there is some sort of direct correlation between the nuclear testing done in the area and our storyline. But to what end I cannot determine. Maybe it takes a gigantic release of energy to "activate" the pod chamber.
Why would the pod chamber be close to Roswell, NM as opposed to any other town? There has to be a reason.
I think you're onto something here. The pods had to have some energy source. If that source were detectable, then either humans or evil aliens would be able to detect the energy signature and pin point the location of the pod chamber. Post destiny, the most vulnerable part of the whole plan is the period the young aliens are in the pods. They're isolated and all together, a perfect time to wipe them out and foil the plan -- if you can find them.
Since Roswell, NM, was that close to nuclear testing in the '40s then even today there will be radioactively "hot" areas. Any detectable energy signature put out by the pod chamber would become lost in the background radioactive "noise," making it invisible to anyone searching for it. Qfanny, your idea holds up beautifully.
SF
09-12-2000 05:33 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
quote:
Originally posted by SF
Since Roswell, NM, was that close to nuclear testing in the '40s then even today there will be radioactively "hot" areas. Any detectable energy signature put out by the pod chamber would become lost in the background radioactive "noise," making it invisible to anyone searching for it. Qfanny, your idea holds up beautifully.
SF
Thanks SF!
It's nice to see you again, I remember you when I was a wee lurker. Now I can't shut up! Anyway, on the SciFi of Blind Date thread, you said you liked Palomino's comments on the orbs. Most everyone here knows I'm orbsessed!
I just want to know what you're refering too. I've put a lot of thought into those things.
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From Nebraska Qfanny!
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-13-2000 10:32 AM
SF
Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 19999
quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny
Anyway, on the SciFi of Blind Date thread, you said you liked Palomino's comments on the orbs. Most everyone here knows I'm orbsessed!
I just want to know what you're refering too. I've put a lot of thought into those things.
Qfanney, I'm pulling up the Crazy thread so I can find what I was referring to. My apologies to everyone for hi-jacking part of the Crazy thread over to this one.
QFanney, I just reread you intial post on that thread.
quote:
Originally posted by Qfanny
Remember, she (Topolski) begged Michael to take her with them. She obviously has heard something to believe that she could "survive" on Planet Twilo! (Comment on that line please!)
I don't know if anyone did comment, so here's my take. Nacedo &/ TicTac &/ the alien held in captivity for three years have survived on earth with no special breathing apparatus or nutrient supply (except maybe for tictac), so therefore the environmental conditions necessary for their survival and for humans are similar. Hence a human should be able to survive on their planet, if the aliens can survive on it. So, on the one hand, Topolski can logically know that she can live on the other planet because I assume she knows about the alien held in captivity for 3 years. On the other hand, she's desparate and convinced that she's going to be killed here on earth, so it's a last ditch effort on her part to increase her life expectancy. However, there's no reason to think the aliens would welcome her on the home planet. Does the name Twilo come from the books?
But that's not really answering your original question. I've reread more of the thread, just refreshing my memory, and I think you, LSS, and GraceKel really worked through the switched orb theory. I can accept that something happened when the shadow crossed the orb. It could have been switched, or tampered with.
Well I had to go into scan mode, because it's such a long thread, and I now know that I referenced the wrong thread. I will have to go and edit my post. I was complimenting Palomino's post on the first page of the SH anniversary thread, talking about how the ORB caused the sexual frenzy. Later on in the same thread Qfanney wrote "But could the orb be alive or maybe infused with the alien essense?"
This was the part of the discussion that struck a chord with me. Because of the SS presence at the end of SH, I initially interpreted that the whole thing had been a test to see who was ready for the next step, i.e. the SS (whichever one) had initiated the orb's beeping, but part of me always wanted to give the orb agency, and Palimino's theory helped do that. You and LSS then brought up sentience, and amx came and shot a lot of holes in the idea.
amx wrote "It seems to me that the orbs would also need a means to collect data if they were sentient(no mind can exist in isolation), which the long burial of the SH orb seems to mitigate against.
So, for me, whilst the concept of sentience would help explain a number of the orbs' features/functions, it ultimately raises more questions, which I feel are harder to resolve."
By the time I read that post there was no point in responding, but since you asked, here goes. I don't think it's going to have any relevance to your (Qfanney's) theories, but since I'm a sentience junkie, here goes. Before you can talk about sentience you have to define it. If the orbs are sentient, I don't think they have a "sense of self," but they could very well respond to stimulus. If you define sentience simply as an ability to respond to stimulus, e.g., move away from a touch, grow towards light, then the orbs could be sentient. Like some primitive creature they could have existed fully functional but "encapsulated" or passive in the ground ready to respond to an external stimulus. As soon as the orb received whatever it was from Max that he was "ready," it could start calling to him to come and find it.
Sorry, that doesn't really add to any of your theories, but thanks for asking.
SF
09-13-2000 05:15 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
SF said If you define sentience simply as an ability to respond to stimulus, e.g., move away from a touch, grow towards light, then the orbs could be sentient. Like some primitive creature they could have existed fully functional but "encapsulated" or passive in the ground ready to respond to an external stimulus. As soon as the orb received whatever it was from Max that he was "ready," it could start calling to him to come and find it.
Qfanny answer SF. Thank you for posting on this topic again! I've sort of abandonned any idea that the orbs could be "alive" in the traditional sense. However, the quote above is leading into probably the next topic for scifi discussion. Freewill. I am anxiously awaiting the start of LSS next thread to post.
And, remembering an eppy of ST:TNG where Data believes the small "gobots" are a primitive cyborg-animal, I wonder if the same idea can be extended to the communicators. But the orbs have not really demonstrated an ability to adjust or adapt, or make tools. But it seems to be able to communicate telepathically!
Let's assume that telepathy is a real thing and it works by sending out messages on some sort of biotechnical carrier channel. Some people and certain equipment with the right kind of receivers and transmitters can all use that channel. If this were true, and all other things being equal, would the behavior of the orb be more akin to a computer??? Once it receives a command in it's receiver, the program executes program X.
Would the above carry more weight than the idea of sentience???
Still leaves a lot of questions out there.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
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Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-14-2000 04:05 AM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
SF question Does the name Twilo come from the books?
Qfanny's answer I did not know this until recently. Twilo was the name of the planet in a classic Dick Van Dyke episode. ---Not that I've seen it.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
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09-14-2000 10:28 AM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 19999
QFANNY---I am the one who keeps calling it Planet Twilo---and SF you are right-that is exactly where I got it from the DICK VAN DYKE show---I guess I was thinking about it cuz in DVD show he was having a nightmare and the aliens had a third eye and they loved shelled walnuts LOL!!!!! It is not connected to ROSWELL at all I just threw it in there sorry if I confused you.
09-14-2000 10:54 AM
SF
Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 19999
Qfanny wrote
Let's assume that telepathy is a real thing and it works by sending out messages on some sort of biotechnical carrier channel. Some people and certain equipment with the right kind of receivers and transmitters can all use that channel. If this were true, and all other things being equal, would the behavior of the orb be more akin to a computer???
Would the above carry more weight than the idea of sentience???
SF answer
That was a really good question. I now think it's irrelevant for the orb to be sentient, or to be of biological, or mechanical origins (or both).
Our given's at this point are: 1. It's able to lay quescent for long periods of time. If it's mechanical, it has an energy saver program, and if its biological, it can hybernate.
2. Whether mechanical or biological, there has to be some kind of cue to make it active again. If it's an internal cue, it's some kind of clock, i.e. the date Venus aligns with Aries and the aliens reach sexual maturity. Or it's an external cue. There is a mechanism or biological structure inside the orb that is sensitive to a specific person's signature, i.e., "brain waves." Or there is a remote activation switch which someone has.
3. Once active it can transmit "brain waves" to the specific person on his/her "wavelength."
4. Once the transmission is completed the Orb shuts down.
5. Start up and shutdown are accompanied by beeping, and take an extended period of time.
So the ORB can be acting on its own, but following a preprogrammed script. I don't see the Orbs' being "smart enough" to manipulate the message themselves. That of course doesn't explain the SS's smile.
SF
09-14-2000 11:59 AM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
GraceKel, Thank you for clarifying the origins of Planet Twilo. I was a DVD fan in my youth but didn't get the reference.
09-14-2000 12:08 PM
shapeshifter
Addicted Fan Registered: May 2000
I have considered the orbs being set to activate in accordance with alignment of stars as a timing device. If true, then Max the orbs could be Max's nemesis re his love for Liz. Michael might want to smash them for similar reasons, but Alex would deprogram them (or create an anti-orb device).
Need to run.
P.S. Liz certainly was just as activated by the orbs as any podster, including Tess.
09-14-2000 02:15 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 19999
Yes Shapeshifter I thought Liz's biological drive was pretty much awakened as well so how does one explain this?
09-14-2000 03:50 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
quote:
Originally posted by GraceKel QFANNY---I am the one who keeps calling it Planet Twilo---and SF you are right-that is exactly where I got it from the DICK VAN DYKE show---I guess I was thinking about it cuz in DVD show he was having a nightmare and the aliens had a third eye and they loved shelled walnuts LOL!!!!! It is not connected to ROSWELL at all I just threw it in there sorry if I confused you.
GraceKel! You see. I read your posts! I will now run off and tell the person who explained to me the Planet Twilo reference.
Speaking of shells--
I posted in the Liz thread, but I think that shell game is EXTREMELY SYMBOLIC!!!
First of all, she is not in control of the situation, and that brings up memories of Pilot and the shooting, at least to me.
Second, the shells themselves represents the the pods.
Third the pea. I am thinking of Nemo's posts, 3+1: Is Liz the pea?
Fourth: Max(edo) is making Liz a part of this situation. This brings us back to Liz in ITW, "Max, you made me a part of this."
Fifth: "Don't believe everything you see."
Please help me connect these dots.
From Nebraska Qfanny!
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-14-2000 05:44 PM
Palomino
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Qfanny and SF : I'm flattered you liked some of the orb ideas. Anything I can help with? You know, for all our speculation and intricate explainations, the writers will do what they want and bulldoze through the second season, assuming we forgot or didn't notice all the little things from first season. This happens in so many shows. sigh.
GraceKel : About Tess acting surprised about the sex dreams: I didn't mean she was surprised he was having visions. I meant I thought she was very pleasantly surprised that he was having dreams - on his own. We saw Max having the visions, but we don't know if he had any dreams at night in bed like Mi/I had. I think if he had been having dreams, we the viewers would have seen them too, or at least known about them. I thought maybe Tess was happily surprised that he was getting dreams on his own which she was not responsible for, and she thought maybe he was going to come around without too much of a fight. I think she was wrong on two counts. Max looked like he was lying - probably to find out the info for Isabel, since that was the mission he was on. Second, I think she was underestimating his bond to Liz as if it was a normal high school relationship. She does have a fight on her hands.
It was just MHO, and I don't think it's a big deal.
P.S. I did see the DVD Twilo episode, but I didn't remember the name of the planet, and had not gotten the connection. Now I get it. Thank you, and I do think it is very funny.
09-14-2000 07:48 PM
GraceKel
Crazed Fan Registered: Dec 19999
QFanny I always thought that shell game meant something too but I couldn't figure out exactly what message was being sent but you could be right. It certainly is a plausible explanation.
Palomino thanks for responding, I didn't mean to sound short with you if that is the way it came across, I think I am getting frustrated by the lack of Liz(especially) but all the humans as well from the promos so if I sounded heavy handed in my response(which I think I did-cuz I just went back and reread it LOL and it sounded harsh) I really did not mean to be.
However that said, I truly believe the only dreams he was referring to were the ones we were exposed to on the screen-which I think were Tess induced--but that was just my take on things----I do know that others believe that he is having some kind of alien attraction or something. But once she confirms that she can plant visions and Max tells us a half a dozen times through TLV episode, that this is different, it wasn't me, it was like something was controlling me, there is something not right about.....well I tend to believe these were all planted. So in M2TM when Tess says, "you are having dreams about you and me?" I feel she is acting innocent here but the key word is ACTING here. It also reminds me in the WHITE ROOM eppy when Isabel admits she can dreamwalk and Tess says so innocently "and you can all do that!" I believe she is a dreamwalker too and poooff we have Isabel and Michael at the mercy.
09-15-2000 07:46 AM
SF
Dedicated Fan Registered: Dec 19999
GraceKel and shapeshifter, I never had much of a problem with Liz getting the Orb's message as well. IMHO, when Max reversed the connection in the pilot, he caused a physical and permanent change in Liz's brain. He gave her a part of himself, the part that can receive images. Maybe she has the same "signature" as him when it comes to receiving images, hence she picked up the Orb's message too. Or, an idea I find preferable, they're subconsciously connected. So Max got the message, and Liz received it via her subconscious connection to Max.
[Edited by SF on 09-15-2000 at 07:49 AM]
09-15-2000 05:45 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
quote:
Originally posted by SF GraceKel and shapeshifter, I never had much of a problem with Liz getting the Orb's message as well. IMHO, when Max reversed the connection in the pilot, he caused a physical and permanent change in Liz's brain. He gave her a part of himself, the part that can receive images. Maybe she has the same "signature" as him when it comes to receiving images, hence she picked up the Orb's message too. Or, an idea I find preferable, they're subconsciously connected. So Max got the message, and Liz received it via her subconscious connection to Max.
[Edited by SF on 09-15-2000 at 07:49 AM]
So Palomino is right. The orbs are responding to Max's energy output!
When Max says he's been having dreams to Tess--- I think he's refering to some real dreams he's been having about Liz!
Liz's fantasy has the same sort of weird sexual frenzy that Isabel and Michael's dream have.
Remember all the "chat" about whether or not Max saw Liz's fantasy as she had it? I suggest that he did.
When confronting Liz in the girls locker room, he says,
"I had to be sure that it was coming from you and not me, because it definately could have been, me." ----paraphrasing...
From Nebraska Qfanny!
Remember: Liz is not an alien!
09-15-2000 07:08 PM
Lorrilei1960
Addicted Fan Registered: Jun 2000
Hi all.... I've just caught up with the conversation (see what happens when you're away for a day or two) and have one or two comments.
re the orb as a sentient being... perhaps it's like a hard shelled amoeba... a big one celled creature incased in a hard material (I'm really kidding about that... but it sure looks amoeba like )
re the planet Twilo... in his dreams, the aliens also had to drink water to get their oxygen supply and lost their thumbs
re Liz/Max/Tess and all that jazz ... I do think that Liz was caught up in the sexual frenzy thing... perhaps her drives were awakened when Max's were because, as someone suggested, her brain waves kind of changed... and perhaps because the orb was programmed to awaken two... one male and one female because it takes "two to tango" or something like that. Kind of reminds me of a Noah's Ark scenario... the podsters sent out two by two!!!
09-15-2000 09:05 PM
Qfanny
Dedicated Fan Registered: Jul 2000
I'm here to annouce that shapeshifter and I are going to make an attempt to document the Season One Science Fiction Theories onto their own Website. Many of you should be receiving an email to your FanForum email address in regards to this from maxcedo@hotmail.com. The site is under heavy construction, but if you wear hard hats and watch your step (to avoid falling into black plot holes), you can visit at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell
We would very much like permission to quote (and give credit) to many of you.
If you do not receive an email, you can look for a thread I will start soon titled Season One SciFi Theories Archive Project that will further explain what we are doing.
maxcedo@hotmail.com for comments
From Nebraska Qfanny!