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The Science Fiction of The White Room - Fan Forum
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Moderator Posts: 1214
Registered: Aug 99 posted 05-08-2000 05:00 PM
Please discuss all the Sci-Fi aspects of The White Room in this
thread.
Thanks,
Stogy

SDGal
Member

Posts: 226
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-08-2000 06:59 PM
*bump*

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-08-2000 07:44 PM
With Max's screams still echoing in our minds, maybe it will divert
our memories for a while by focusing on the new SF revelations this
episode brings us:
1) MAX--MORE HUMAN THAN HE EVER IMAGINED?
We now find out that Max's internal organs and bone structure are
100% human. Indeed Nesedo tells Michael that they are engineered to
be what humankind might be several thousand years in the future.
Moreover their powers stem from the human brain which is why Pierce
is able to surpress (through drugs) Max's powers. Are we then to
believe that several thousand years of evolution will allow humans
to manipulate matter? Dreamwalk? Control Minds? Does this seem
credible to you? Can some powers be more easily explained than
others by this idea?
2) JUST WHAT IS ALIEN ABOUT MAX? How are we to understand Max's
alien side? That he is a hybrid of some type seems obvious--but what
does his "alien" side consist of (aside from his blood)? Why have
alien blood if there is no other function associated with it? Why
not make Max 100% human--blood included? What is it that the writers
are not telling us about Max?
3) THEIR POWERS AND THEIR LIMITS. We now find out that Tess can
project images, and Isabel suggests that the images Max saw are due
to Tess' mental powers. Yet these powers are not without their
limits. The depleted uranium doors, consisting as they are of heavy
metal, are beyond their powers of molecular manipulation. What other
powers do they have? What else can they NOT do? Nesedo says they are
not "equiped" to protect themselves. Why not? Why engineer a form
that is not as functional as that of Nesedo--who although he cannot
pass an x-ray scan, seems to do very well otherwise--and who is able
to take on a human form and be integrated into human society.
4) NESEDO & PIERCE = EVIL OR JUST DOING THEIR JOBS? That trail of
bodies we heard of before now turns out to be ex-heads of the FBI
special unit. Were their deaths justified? Nesedo kills the agent in
front of Michael, and even Michael has trouble accepting this
murder. Yet Nesedo warns that if Michael wants to "go home" he will
have to fight for it. Is Nesedo Evil--or just following orders? And
what about Hubble's wife?
And what of Pierce? He says he's fighting to save his planet from
colonizing aliens. If he really believes this, is he justified in
trying any means possible to get information from Max? If you think
that you are at war with colonizing aliens, are any means acceptable
to save your planet?
5) HEY--WHY IS EVERYONE PICKING ON BEING HUMAN? You know--the aliens
selected a human template to engineer our teens so there MUST have
been something to recommend it! Yet did anyone else catch the
repeated slams made against the human species in this episode? First
of all Tess argues that the humans will be liabilities if they
accompany them. Okay--I can see that (not happy about it, but it
does have a certain logic). Then Nesedo insists that "humans are
weak". And Pierce notes that Max's "weakness" is that he is part
human--he has feelings, emotions, can feel friendship and love. And
it is through Max's "weakness" (i.e., his love for Liz) that Pierce
finally breaks him. What do you think...does Max need to beef up his
alien side (whatever that is) or just ditch the human side of him
that "feels"? Or is that human emotional side going to be his
salvation? Max accuses Pierce of being inhuman. Was Max right? Is it
a good thing to be human? Might Nesedo learn something from it?
6) ARE TESS AND MAX LINKED? When Isabel fears that Max is dead, Tess
assures her that he isn't--that Tess would have known if Max had
died. Why? Why would she have known? And how does she know she would
have? If she is so linked--then why did Isabel have to do all the
communicating with Max? And why can't Tess dreamwalk?
Well folk, what do YOU think?
LSS

db Member Posts: 339
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-08-2000 10:15 PM
LSS-you have made some very good pionts-*their human bodies-i
believe that everything about them is human even their blood and
cells and so forth...remember they are what we humans will be like
thousands of years from now-so one can expect that human DNA will
have changed by then to look the way maxs did
*and yes why come to earth? was it because earth was next on the
list of invasion or could it be that earth and their home planet are
linked in some way
*we now know that there were 4 "adult" (i'm guessing) aliens on the
ship two died 2 were captured alive-one escaped (nasado) so what
happened to the 4th one is he or she still alive and were there four
nasado like aliens because there were four kid aliens???
*yes it would seem as if tess and max were linked but remember tess
is more advanced then the others so they may not be as linked to one
another as she is to max-the look Is. and Michael gave one another
seems to suggest that-but from the way isabell eas acting in BD and
ID i have to admit that she does and is able to pick up on michael
feelings
*what did nasado expect to find when he finally met up with the
three?? They grew up with humans so therefore one has to expect that
they would have many human traits anything other wise is just not
right
and last thing did the crash in 1947 happen during a landing or a
take-off??? the way the pods were in that cave it looked like they
had been on earth for quite some time so what gives?

db Member Posts: 339
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-08-2000 10:51 PM
one last thing i'm confused on-did Pierce go from max being nasado
to max being not nasado but an alien?

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-08-2000 10:52 PM
LSS: I've only got a minute (I just spent 60 writing you an email),
but here's a quick gut reaction to your typically insightful
questions.
1 - 2 Why is Max's blood (and skin cells?) his only obvious
non-human component? I'd bet it's because the writers needed
something to create the problems it has. That allowed Liz to
discover for certain he wasn't human, and it created the perpetual
fear that he could be proven alien at any time, as in "Blood
Brothers." They also needed to give us something concrete to
solidify Max's alien nature in our minds. He had to have something
definite that made him objectively and materially different, so they
gave him that. Sorry, but I think this is primarily what;s going on.
They may do something with this idea, but I wouldn't count on it. I
don't think the "science" of what's going on is nearly so well
thought out as it is in other more purely scifi venues.
4. Whether or not Nasedo or Pierce is evil depends on your
priorities and your perspective. If anything, it seems Pierce is the
more evil of the two at the moment, merely because he represents
institutions who appear to have "shot first and asked questions
later." We know of nothing that would have given the US government
the idea that the aliens who crashed intended to colonize the earth,
yet that is the premise the alien hunters have apparently operated
under from the start. Again, this is part of the subversive nature
of Roswell we've been discussing on the previous scifi thread.
Western culture assumes that an superior race would use its powers
as we have in the past and still do, to dominate the weaker. So far
as I know, that's the real basis for their approach. On the other
hand, the aliens have proven they're not willing to "turn the other
cheek." By the time Pierce takes over the unit, several of its
leaders and members have been killed by Nasedo, so he is fighting a
kind of war that was raging before he came to it. Besides, we still
don't know why the aliens ARE here, and even if they don't mean to
harm us they may bring harm with them anyway.
Still, Nasedo's methods and motives are extremely suspect. From his
point of view, he may only be doing what's necessary to fulfill a
mission whose main purpose is not to harm earth or its people.
Perhaps the aliens are even here to help us. Neverthless, Nasedo
shares Pierce's relative morality in which the ends justify any
means. And Nasedo is a murderer. Whatever any of the other people
were, Michael's foster father, Hank, was not an agent. And abusive
jerk that he was, Hank did not deserve to die. The long and short of
it is that Nasedo murdered him. More importantly, Nasedo was at best
willing to sacrifice Liz as well. And she certainly doesn't deserve
to die. As some of you know, I think getting her killed was a
primary part of his plan, but even if it weren't it reveals an
incredibly amoral callousness towards human life.
5. Yes, a lot of characters were picking on humans, but I thought it
was at least as important which ones were examplifying humanity.
Foremost was Michael, who seemed to reject the alien father he has
desperately sought for so long precisely because of Nasedo's lack of
humanity. Second was Valenti, who instinctively knew who was right
and who was wrong in this dire situation. His willingness to
jeapordize his life for Max Evans -- a boy he now "cares about" --
provided an ironic contrast to Nasedo and Pierce's blind adherence
to principles. Like Liz and the rest of the human gang, Valenti
acted on Max's behalf because of "who" and not "what" Max is.
Of course the most pointed contrast was between Pierce and Max. The
"white room" and its torturous implements of examination not only
evoke images of Nazi horror but also of the myths of alien
abduction. The probes, the blades, the paralyzing drugs, and the
hooded beings in white uniforms come straight from the handbook of
UFO hysteria. Max calls Pierce "evil" and questions which of them is
the more "human." We have no doubt of the answer. Like Valenti, we
know Max Evans to be as Liz described him to Kyle: "the last person
in the world who would ever want to hurt someone." Ultimately, Max's
humanity proves to be his salvation (and it may be worthwhile to go
back and search for Messianic imagery). Though the aliens' powers
were necessary to free him, this effort would have failed were it
not for Liz and Valenti. Had Liz not done "the same thing Max was
willing to do for me" and asked for Valenti's help and had Valenti
not chosen to defy all logic and legality to fulfill her request,
both Max and Michael, and perhaps Tess and Isabel as well, would be
dead. Not all the resources at Pierce's command could overcome the
devotion that the "gang" had for their beloved Max.
6. Are Tess and Max "linked?" Dream on, Trash. I could point out a
great deal of evidence to suggest that Tess is seriously deluded,
but I'll let it go for now. But to quote a friend, "predetermined
mate my ass!"
[This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-08-2000).]

FehrFan Moderator Posts: 1625
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-08-2000 10:54 PM
I think Tess and Max are definitely linked. They were engineered as
compliments of one another so I'm sure they were designed with some
sort of mental connection between them. Plus, the look between
Michael and Isabel after Tess' comment suggested that perhaps they
had been feeling a connection between themselves.

FehrFan Moderator Posts: 1625
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-08-2000 10:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by db:
one last thing i'm confused on-did Pierce go from max being nasado
to max being not nasado but an alien?
That's a good question. When Pierce first confronts Max, he accuses
him of being the one behind the murders. But then he makes reference
to Nasedo as a seperate entity a few minutes later.
Another question I have is about Nasedo. In the end of White Room we
see him get shot. Do bullets harm him? Is he dead?
[This message has been edited by FehrFan (edited 05-08-2000).]

db Member Posts: 339
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-08-2000 11:08 PM
FehrFan-yah your right and the way he changes tactics when torturing
him and asking him if he still wanted him to call his parents was
really confusing also when did he go from one to the other?

Jason's Angel Member Posts: 87
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-08-2000 11:15 PM
LSS, db & tepp: You all make some great points and ask some great
questions. It has me doing some deep thinking - I'm still trying to
process what I saw and heard in this episode but there is one thing
that I don't understand. Maybe someone can help me with: it has to
do with Tess. I'm still not trusting Tess (and Nasedo for that
matter) and their motives regarding Max, Michael & Isabel. (Yes-this
partially does have something to do with me being a dreamgirl &
wanting Max and Liz together)
One thing that bothered me about Tess in this episode (other than
the fact that we now seem to know she planted those visions of her &
Max together in Max's head...did she also do that to Michael &
Isabel too?! (plant their visions of them together w/child?)
I noticed that when Michael, Isabel & Tess were in the morgue to see
if the body was Max--when Michael lifted the sheet and Isabel
pointed out the silver handprint-Tess said "What is that?" -
(meaning the handprint) - Michael then says: "Nasedo" and Isabel
continues with: "That's how he kills"..I find it hard to believe
that Tess is not familiar with the handprint. In "4-Square" when she
takes Kyle to the library to retrieve the so-called "book of their
the Pod Squads)destiny" - she uses her "handprint" to make a hole in
the wall to pull out the book through. I don't get it? Why did she
seem surprised/unfamiliar by the handprint on the corpse?
Speaking of "handprints" - we've seen Max's print (when he saved
Liz, when he opened the cave to find their pods)-we've seen Nasedo's
print (when he kills, when he caused the gas station pumps to catch
on fire) and we've seen Tess's print (in the library to get the
book) - I don't ever remember seeing Michael or Isabel using their
handprint?
Would appreciate your thoughts-(hope I made sense).
-Jason's Angel-

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 37
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-08-2000 11:19 PM
TEPP, I think that this episode had a very strong messianic image.
When Is does her first dream walk, Max appears, arms splayed up and
outward, as if crucified to the wall (before we see the chains).
I agree about the bllod cells. I think that was an unfortunate, not
well thought out choice. I wish, at least, they had kept any
difference(s) at a level (ie, genetic or neurological) that would
not be readily assayed by "routine" medical tests, instead requiring
sophisticated tests such as karyotyping or electroencephalogram.
Human. Just more human than human.
Rosta

saphire Member Posts: 1654
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-08-2000 11:21 PM
hey guys, just saw whiteroom and can i say how much i loved that
ep!!!!!!!! i think so much was revealed. okay let's break it down.
1) To me Tess is the alien they have been "studying for the last 3
years" to quote agent pierce. hmmm.... i think that is tess and i
think she is working for them, whether nasedo knows or not, i have
no idea. also tess used mind control to get max to have those
feelings for her and the visions as isabel said. i bet that tess
also induced isabel and michael's visions too. she is up to no good!
2)nasedo has no human emotions. only a mission, that is his focus,
to protect the 4. he doesn't even feel for them either. when they
rescued max, he wasen't concerned for how max was, just was ready to
leave max and michael to go kill pierce. he is just focused solely
on the mission. he even used michael's emotions against him by
saying that he would kill the agent if michael couldn't get the
finger printing thing down and once michael did, he still killed the
agent and when questioned by michael as to if he cared, nasedo
looked dumbfounded like why would i. michael is realizing that
nasedo is not who he thought he was or wants to be around.
3) i think that max, michael, and isabel are completely more human
than alien. the only alien thing is their cells. this will lead them
back to their human loves!
max and tess may think they are linked and they are because they
were programmed but sorry, being programmed, having a preordained
destiny is not a true destiny, it is not love.
both nasedo and pierce are evil! they are evil because they will do
what ever it takes to get their mission accomplished without regard
for anyone, that's a selfish, evil act, so yes they are both evil.

GraceKel Member Posts: 490
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-08-2000 11:22 PM
What I got out of the episode was that it was Max's humanity that
saved him because his loved ones know how loving he truly is! Second
how many exit signs did we see-well I use to think this was a sign
that Nasedo was around now I could swear there is someoneelse around
watching and this exit sign cues their presence-I am just guessing
here. Tess knows MIND CONTROL-big surprise? I felt she was using it
on our friendly aliens all along!
Here is another theory I have been kicking around in my mind-about
Michael--If you go back to when Max describes coming out the pods in
the Balance---he says Isabel and I found each other first-we
couldn't speak but we could communicate then we walked for quite
awhile and we could feel someone-and Liz pops in with MICHAEL--Max
says he was standing on this rock Here I am deal with me---He
wouldn't take my hand-it has been the hardest thing for him to trust
us. What if Michael, Tess and Nasedo come from a different group of
aliens and are different from Max and Isabel-this would explain
along with his tragic upbringing why he has so much more to
overcome-feeling more Alien not trusting the humans---but because he
has slowly been building a bond between Max and Isabel as well as
humans(especially Maria) he has moved away from this darker Alien
existence. Would also explain why he can understand the
messages-read the map better than the others--"I am going to find
Nasedo he's my family" how many times do writers put truths in there
when we are thinking just the opposite! Now maybe Max and Isabel
were meant to pair up with humans(not sure) but Nasedo's alien
species wants his Michael and Tess to pair up with Max and Isabel
for some reason(haven't figured why that could be). It would also
explain why Riverdog came to get just Michael in Into The Woods like
the message was for him. He was the only one who could understand
the message if I am not mistaken! This is not to make Michael bad I
am saying that he could have been born to the darker side but
because of the love he has gotten from Max Isabel and the humans-he
could be abandoning it instead of embracing it!
Just because they showed those pods does not mean that is the way it
happened-we now know that Tess can plant images so the fix could be
in.
Tess seemed really concerned wondering if they all could
dreamwalk-didn't she-I wonder why?
It is also funny how Michael said your not exactly what I expected
and Nasedo says neither are you!

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-08-2000 11:40 PM
db you wrote:
"i believe that everything about them is human even their blood and
cells and so forth...remember they are what we humans will be like
thousands of years from now-so one can expect that human DNA will
have changed by then to look the way maxs did"
db you may turn out to be right--but I have two problems with your
reasoning:
1) Pierce himself makes a big deal of the "alieness" of Max's
blood--which, like Tepp noted, alludes back to the first show of the
series, and
2) If we are talking several thousand years of evolution, then I
doubt that it would be only the blood that would have changed--or
that it would have changed that radically with no other signs of
bodily change.
db -- you also mentioned about the other alien. I wondered that too!
I couldn't remember if Pierce had said he died or not. I have to go
back and rewatch the episode.
db -- as for the landing vs. take off issue. Some folks like Rosta
(our myth analysis genius--are you out there Rosta?) have suggested
that the alien presence might be longstanding on earth. That might
support your theory. Of course Liz thought she saw a crash in her
vision...?
db -- As for the Max = Nesedo, Max = generic alien issue. I would
say that either:
1) Pierce himself doesn't know and is using the standard questioning
routine of "fishing" for answers, or
2) Pierce believes he can link Max to the last murder, and is just
guessing about the others, OR
3) We have a blooper here!
tepp: granted that the blood might simply be a plot device--the
primary distinguishing identifier--meaning that they are always
vulnerable to a simple blood test in terms of exposure. But don't
you think that our trio (I refuse to use "quartet") are going to ask
about that? Why human in all but blood? I would. I suspect that the
blood might contain something alien that we are not yet privy
to--we'll have to wait and see.
Whatever the case--the blood is enough to convince Pierce that Max
is no ordinary teen.
NOW--IF YOU REALLY WANT TO PICK UP A SF BLOOPER IN THIS EPISODE THEN
CONSIDER THIS.
Pierce gets his information on alien physiology from the studies
done on aliens in the forties. Supposedly, these aliens were like
Nesedo (who had escaped) -- that is, they were able to take on human
form, but their internal structure and organs were different. OKAY--
then how could they have learned about the Max's powers enough to
produce a drug to suppress them, when their original objects of
study were not the same internally as Max? I believe the term
cerebral cortex was used in the episode--Max certainly has one--but
from what we've been told, Nesedo does not!
LSS

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-08-2000 11:51 PM
Hey Rosta!
Our posts crossed. Good call on the crucifixion image!
But I'm still not sure that what we are dealing with is simply
human. I really think we have a type of engineered hybrid. But I'm
just not sure of what constitutes the alien element--other than the
blood (of course the blood itself would be sufficient to classify
them as "hybrids").
Of course you could argue that the aliens are engineering an army of
"super-humans" for ultimate conquest of earth (Hey Max even kidded
about it in SH). But somehow I just don't think that is what is
going on. Your point is well taken--such an obvious difference (and
so easily detected) makes no sense if you are trying to integrate
and hide within the indigenous population. I still think that the
blood might be significant--for something more than a plot
device--even if just to show that we have hybrids here not just
super humans.
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-08-2000).]

Fraz Member Posts: 72
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-08-2000 11:54 PM
I have never posted on the scifi thread before.
One thing about pierce is the lack of human emotions in a human. Is
he all human? He seems completely cold and empty in his eyes.
I think Tess has always had an agenda and the placing of visions in
peoples minds is just that no destiny she is just casting her own
short film subjects to suit her agenda.
I believe her version of coming out of the pods is just that her
little movie. She placed this in Max mind at the end of FS and in
Isabel mind in M2M. The jeep seen too.
I think she has alot more alien side to her and more to be revealed.
I think she will save her self before all others if it came down to
it and sell out she cant understand the bonding the other three have
and the 6.
Curious about even with Tess powers being advanced she seemed overly
curious about the powers the others have like storing this for
future?
I want to know your opinion on Pierce how much tape from Micheal
apartment does he have? With the ping pong scene they showed the
tape had to roll on SH scene between Liz and Max and him healing her
neck and talking about visions and then all the conversations they
had in Crazy at the apartment he has to want the other 6 why not
have gone after them before this? or was it not Pierce that has seen
all of these things?
Fraz

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:15 AM
Fraz:
You bring up some good points about Nesedo and Tess.
I too was struck by the lack of emotion on Tess' part in this
episode. If humans are characterized by emotions, Isabel and Liz
were VERY human. Tess was not.
There is a theory on the SF threads that suggests that the whole
"destiny" theme is a fabrication. Since we now know that Tess can
make people see things and can implant images in people's minds,
then you are quite right to question whether or not this "destiny"
is contrived. And if the book is fake--then you have more grounds
for your theory.
I must be frank and say that I am not in the camp that believes
this--yet. Though the mind control issue is very tempting. I will
have to wait and see if we get any outside verificaton of this
destiny before I make my mind up on it. Part of me suspects,
however, that it might be real, if for no other reason than it
presents Max with the dilemma of choice--Tess or Liz, alien destiny
or human love. It is a great plot line (albeit a painful one to
watch if you are a dreamgirl/guy).
As for the tape--who knows? Pierce mentions that they call the SS
Nesedo--and he could have gotten that from the tape. But we just
don't know what else was taped.
LSS
LSS

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 37
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:23 AM
Hi LSS,
They can be super humans and still be hybrids. I am here studying
(*ahem*cough*) and reading about food products genetically
engineered to be resistant to environment and pests, etc. A specific
gene(s) from another species (another plant, virus, or bacterium) is
genetically integrated in the target species DNA to make it
resistant, make it "switch off" a native gene, or kill what would be
a normal predator. Perhaps genetic material, of unknown origin and
of specific gene of interest, was introduced into a normal human
genome. With the right "trigger", it would switch on other genes or
up regulate transcription of what is already there, etc. I think a
lot of their powers are neurological, as was suggested in this ep.
Cerebral cortx, limbic cortex. The more advanced a species, the more
layers of neocortex. We only use a fraction of our brain capacity
and only an extremely small part of our genome actively codes for
proteins.
To me, the green cells beg the question. The green color may just be
a "byproduct" of the genetic engineering. For instance, maybe they
have a lot of copper-proteins in their mitochondria (dense, highly
energetic mitochondria are a pre-requisite for intense energy
needs--copper proteins protect from oxidation). The questions are:
Why engineer humans to be advanced beyond imagination. This suggests
manipulating and playing with human genes.
As I have mentioned before, part of the exploanation may be in the
timeline--how long have they been here. Are they of earth origin
(and the trio are in their image). Have they been here long enough
to have interfered with the human genome from the beginning did they
"catalyze" the evolutionary process later. They had to have taken
human genetic material at some point. Or maybe they are so advanced
they can manipulate human, or any other species, genome, in a short
period of time. Perhaps the only aliens here are nasedo/harding and
pierce (and another nasedo?).
What is the purpose of all this, and do the ends justify the means?
Is this an intrinsically evil act? An "immoral" or "unethical act"?
Is the reason survival or a desire to change the future or save
humans or themselves and is survival at any price justified? Do THEY
have a moral structure that even considers these questions?
Rosta

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:36 AM
Rosta:
A quick question--would fetal tissue work for what you were
suggesting (source of genetic materials)?
The one death that was NOT explained by Pierce's historical
recitation, was that of Hubble's wife who was pregnant. On the SF of
SH thread several things were suggested:
1) That Hubble's wife was carrying Nesedo's baby (and the child was
malformed),
2) Or that Nesedo needed to collect genetic material and killed
Hubble's wife to do so.
You are the science person among us--in what way would the death of
Hubble's wife served the purpose of collecting material to
bioengineer our aliens--or would it?
LSS

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 37
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:36 AM
Re: the glowing orbs. Who made it happen? Was it Tess? Was it Max?
Was it live..or Memorex?
Rosta

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:42 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
2) If we are talking several thousand years of evolution, then I
doubt that it would be only the blood that would have changed--or
that it would have changed that radically with no other signs of
bodily change.
Several thousand years would normally be insufficent time for any
major changes to take place. Our DNA is essentially the same as
100,000 years ago, and is nearly the same as our chimp cousins. DNA
changes VERY slowly. However, one of the theories of how evolution
works is that it is possible for a species to change very rapidly,
either in response to enviromental pressures or just randomly
("punctured equilibrium," I think it's called). Who knows -- maybe
humans will undergo some crisis in the future that results in some
fast evolution. Or maybe we'll change ourselves.
This gets back to the idea that the aliens experience time
differently. Evolution can't be projected into the future without
knowledge of the future. If the Pod Squad are supposed to be what
humans will be in the future, this suggests that the aliens know, on
some level, what that future is.
Of course, the more likely explanation is that the writers have no
clue about how evolution actually works. Talking about the sci-fi of
ROSWELL is sort of pointless. ROSWELL is a fantasy (like STAR WARS),
not hard-core science fiction. I think it's good to keep this in
mind. The good thing about writing fantasy, as opposed to science
fiction, is that you don't need a technical background. As long as
the internal logic of the show stays consistent, anything goes.
-- Mike Zeares

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:46 AM
Well I intially thought it was Tess because when Izzy found out that
Tess did not know how to work the orbs, I thought she told Tess to
do "something". And since the "something" that was done did not
reseamble what happened in SH when he orb was activated then I
assumed that it was fake.
What did you think, Rosta?
LSS

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 37
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:54 AM
The short version is that it is NOT necessary to take fetal tissue
to get DNA. Perhaps the fetus itself has significance, as you
suggest. The murder may have been intended to cover something else.
I don't recall if there was any mention that the fetus was taken.
The use of fetal cells is for a purpose larger than just getting
genetic (ie, DNA) material: it would be for the purpose of obtaining
a biochemical substance (ie, a specific protein or proteins) made in
a specific developed tissue. Examples (experimental) would be brain
tissue for Parkinsons or stem cells for leukemias and other cancers.
It is more logical that her ovaries were harvested.
DNA- the complete genome- can be extracted from any cell except
mature blood cells which had expelled their nucleus. It is what the
genome is directs that makes an eye cell vs a muscle cell, etc (ie,
switch genes on or off in a programmed manner). In other words, they
can get DNA from a cheek cell or blood sample or semen or tissue.
This also makes it a bit silly that it has taken so long for the
sheriff or Topolsky or others one to get genetic material (altho
they may not know what they are looking for.
These kids have been missing from home and school for the longest
time these last couple of eps, yet they could have been caught or
knocked out (ie, with drugs), detained briefly, and had blood or a
cell scraping taken on any number of occasions. I think this is
where we have had to suspend our belief a lot.
Rosta
[This message has been edited by ROStaFEHRian (edited 05-09-2000).]

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 01:03 AM
Mike:
Welcome to the SF thread! And good point about the evolutionary time
frame. From what you said (aside from some extraordinary stimulus)
the radical change in blood (from what we have now to what Max has)
would be difficult to explain in purely evolutionary terms.
Actually--even the development of powers that the storyline
suggests, from a purely scientific POV, is really not credible is it
(unless we have that exceptionally cause that evokes these changes)?
I am emphatically not a "science" type--I am schooled in the "arts"
all the way--but even I had a hard time believing molecular
manipulation as an extrapolation of human abilities.
But I would have to disagree with you that Roswell is fantasy not
science fiction. While theorists debate the precise definition of
Science Fiction--the one thing that distinguishes it from fantasy is
the way the writers attempt to explain what happens within the
storyworld. Science fiction is predicated on "science" (as opposed,
for instance, to magic--though some science might look like magic at
times!). And explanations must "appear" plausible (if not
scientifically accurate). And if the writing staff is not
technically astute then at times you may have silly or even bad
SF--but it remains SF nonetheless.
No--Roswell is not "hard-core" SF...Asimov or Niven would not have
written this. But neither is it about elves and trolls.
Instead--with its theme of alien teens/teen alienation it often
deals with "soft" SF topics. It is only with Roswell Revamped that
the writers have introduced more explicitly hard SF themes
(bioengineering, orb communicators, etc.). It really does remain to
be seen how well this writing staff can handle this transition.
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-09-2000).]

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 01:14 AM
Thanks Rosta...so nice to have science types (you too Mike) as
reality checks to our speculation!!!
I assume that if her ovaries had been harvested that it would have
left some trace--and of course we have not heard of anything yet. It
just seems like the writers went out of their way to draw our
attention to her (and especially her pregnancy)--and Liz has a
vision of her when she kisses Nesedo. And it is the one death that
Pierce does not mention.
That is a lot of coincidences stacking up!!! If not a source of
human genetic material for the engineering of our aliens, then I am
not sure what her significance is yet. (Of course maybe our writers
are not as gifted in the sciences as you are?)
LSS

ROStaFEHRian
Member
Posts: 37
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 01:28 AM
You can never be too rich, too thin, or too scientific I'm not
thin, I barely have 2 nickels to rub together to call a dime
(post-tax time poverty), and I won't have a diploma if I don't get
back to studying for my final Wednesday. I've been here waaay too
long.
Welcome Mike. You explained things about the evolutionary time scale
much better than I could have. I didn't even want to try.
LSS, I think Max made the orbs work. Max broke my heart in that
scene with the orbs.
Bye! and goodnight!
Rosta

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 01:42 AM
Rosta: Good luck on your exam and thanks for adding your expertise.
I'm turning in too! LSS

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 02:27 AM
LSS,
I've been giving this some more thought, and I think I agree with
what you said re: sf vs. fantasy. I guess I called it a fantasy
because, to me, the aliens powers are simply magic, with no
scientific basis whatsoever. However, if the writers give the powers
a scientific explanation (which doesn't *have* to conform to real
science, although it would be nice), that's good enough for me. I'm
not the kind that gets extremely hung up on sf definitions. But I
also don't think we should expect too much "science" in ROSWELL's
fiction. I'm more a fan of the suspense and relationship angles
myself (I was a big X-FILES fan). Although, it is a lot of fun to
try to figure out a plausible explaination for things. It's like
trying to figure out how warp drive works. It's all hooey, but it's
*fun* hooey.
-- Mike Zeares

ViciousV Member Posts: 63
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 03:26 AM
Hi guys!!
Ok. I have a theory about the cells. First of all,I think the
writers added it to keep the "aliens" still alien even though we
have found out they are actually are advanced super humans.
Second,I think that the cells have to do with DNA.
For example, you know how some species, especially animals like
lions,tigers, and most other mammals, have inheritant traits such as
hunting, taking care of young, pretty much ensuring their
survival,etc?
I think its the same for M/M/I/&T
I think the cells are going to be their genetic codes that not only
seperate them from Liz, Maria, and Alex, but also pull the "mates"
together which are inheritant factors. Their "progamming".
More importantly, I think its the reason behind the whole destiny
thing.
Notice Nasedo kept saying to Micheal that everything he needed to do
was inside him, that it was programmed in him?
I believe that its possible that the cells will reveal that despite
their human anatomy, they are definatly alien in make-up. And like
all species they have the inborn nature for survival through
procreation, just like us dear humans.
And, just like in the animal kingdom, you stick to your own species
which leads us to their "destinys".
~**Although, and this is my favorite part, being somewhat human that
they are, this does allow the aliens to have relations with humans
since overall they are human in nature and their anatomy!

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 04:26 AM
Hi folks! Just a couple of brief points (My computer at home is
being fixed tonight--then I'll bore you all w/longer posts.)
ViciousV--I think this does open up the way to relations with
humans. It also makes it possible for a "changed" Liz to be 100%
compatible with Max & equal in power to Tess. I'd really like for
someone nice to look at her blood now to see if Max modified to
match theirs.
Like db, I'm very curious about the 2nd alien that they studied in
captivity for 3 years. Is it possible that Nacedo's escape ended a 3
year captivity? Did they kill the 2nd alien? I like (but don't
believe, yet) the earlier suggestion that it may have been Tess
(there goes Liz's "equality," but then Liz might be a better
biological match). Since Pierce said he watched tapes (and I think
he indicated it was an alien from the crash), I think it happened
before Tess emerged.
Once again, T struck me as a little bossy around Nacedo ("Don't you
ever leave me alone like that again?"). Add Nacedo's "defensive
underling" speech last ep that T (& the others) still need him, and
I'm very curious about their relationship.
As for your why 100% human question, LSS, there was a post on the
last sci fi thread with information/theories that seemed out of left
field to me. Since it would provide a plausible reason for going
with as much of a human physiology as possible, I think it was a
spoiler.
Pierce's laundry list of dead agents started in 1962. Weren't
Hubble's wife & Atherton killed in 1959? Is this order significant?
Why a 12 year delay after the crash?

FehrsHairComb Member Posts: 51
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:02 AM
I have not yet seen 'The White Room' . However reading all of your
posts gave me an urge to also respond. Picture this.. The difference
between a wolf and a dog. The wolf represents Max,Tess,Isabel and
Michael.. The dogs are the humans.
The wolf possesses sharper vision,hearing, and smell then the
domestic dog.. as our three aliens possesses the power of molecular
manipulation, mind powers, and dream walking.
The wolf is stronger, better, faster, as is our three aliens.
Now generally the wolf looks just like a large dog. No real
significant differences.
As the aliens looks just like the humans.
One significant anatomical difference in a wolf is the presence of a
pre-caudal gland on the upper surface of a wolves tail. A feature
that is absent among all domestic dogs. The use of the gland is
Unknown..
Just as The cell and DNA make-up of our aliens.
The dog and wolf are different.. obviously.. yet still the mate on
occasions..
Physically as well and Anatomically they are basically the same.
*sigh* have I stayed up to late or what..
What I'm trying to say is that They are Human... But at the same
time they are not. The small difference in there cells and DNA make
a big difference in who they are.
DNA is the most major building block of the human body.
The only thing that gets me is this.. What does cell's and DNA have
to do with opening the powers of the mind? Everyone knows that the
Human spices does not even use half of there brain..
so what we could do if we could somehow tap into the area's of the
mind that are not being used. I almost wonder if our humans Liz,
Alex and Maria being with these aliens is going to change them..
What if somehow.. these aliens help the humans to tap into their own
minds? Would they then become just like Max, Isabel, and Michael?
Just think about it..Have there not been cases of telepathic beliefs
among humans? Fortune tellers, psychic powers, people who can see
dead people. prodigies.
All of those things are rare and yet special to be. I personally
believe that our aliens are just a higher class of humans.. just as
a wolf is only a higher class of dog.
Now what really scares me is this... If they were engineered.. then
that means that the REAL alien race has been experimenting on
humans. So how long have they been on earth? How long have they been
experimenting with the human race. Are they currently still on
Earth? Are they the only other race that have been on Earth? and WHY
would they want to make alien/human hybrids?
Oh dear... I've talked to long...Am i even makeing any sense? Im soo
sorry ! LOL.. I cant wait to see The White Room... (I do not get to
see it till saterday, we dont have the WB where I live :-/ ..so just
ignore litte old me.
Thanks for dealing with me

ViciousV Member Posts: 63
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 06:05 AM
Ok, another thing I was wondering as I rewatched The White
Room......again
was that there is something going on with Pierce asking Max about
the killings.
1. He already knows that the pod squad refers to the '4th' alien as
Nasado and he should know that they have mentioned him being a
killer. So why is he asking Max about it?
2. Could some of these killings possibly happened while Nasedo was
in captivity?
Theres something there I'm not sure what, but I think its leading to
something. Anyways, just a thought......on with the ep - again.

ChaseatTaos Member Posts: 88
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:09 AM
I think that it is very interesting how I used to never like sci-fi
stuff and now here I am enthralled in it. I can't help but think
about all of the wonderful sci-fi that I must have passed up out
there. Of course, none of it would be as wonderful as Roswell, but
what can I say?
Allison

ChaseatTaos Member Posts: 88
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:13 AM
Wow lss those are some great points!!! I was really thankful that
someone else saw the whole Max/Tess connection problems. I don't
really understand how Tess would have known something had happened
to him either. Other points were also very interesting.
Allison

washingtondc
Member
Posts: 34
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:47 AM
I have religiously read the SF threads for months now, but have
never had the nerve to post. I thought I'd sneak out of lurking mode
to ask a quick question.
Db: you said you thought Max and Tess WERE linked. Why do you
believe that and how do you think they are linked? I'm curious
because even though Tess emphatically stated that she would KNOW if
something happened to Max, Is seemed more connected to him than
Tess. I'm specifically referring to the scene where Is tells Michael
and Tess that all she can see are white lights and that "they" are
hurting Max. I got the impression that she wasn't dreamwalking at
that point -- did I misinterpret that scene?
More importantly, if Tess were connected in some manner to Max,
wouldn't she have known when he was captured? Or, been able to lead
the others to him? Instead, Is had to dreamwalk to determine his
location. I'm inclined to believe that Tess desperately wants to be
connected to Max, but that the connection simply isn't there.
I guess my overall question is . . . were the aliens (M/Mi/I/T)
supposed to be linked or connected in some manner? And, did the fact
that they were split up -- with M/Mi/I being raised by humans, sever
the link -- or at least, change it in some manner?
Sorry about all the questions. Back to lurking mode.
WDC
P.S. Thought I'd better edit this to make sure that I was clear --
I'm not talking about the whole "destiny" thing, but am instead
talking about a possible physiological link between either Max and
Tess or Michael and Isabel. Since they were engineered is that
possible? If so, has that "link" been damaged or altered by their
life experiences?
[This message has been edited by washingtondc (edited 05-09-2000).]

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 07:23 AM
I�ve been thinking about the conspiracy theory story line. Does
anyone have any thoughts on how the writers are going to keep MMIT
and possibly a changed L in Roswell now that the government has
proof that Max is partially non-human? Even if all members of the
special unit were killed or brainwashed permanently (a skill that
has not been exhibited thus far), the lab that was mentioned must
know of the results of the tests on Max (although perhaps not the
identity of the donor of the inhuman blood). Further, while I know
Pierce doesn�t �answer� to anyone, does he also not talk to other
government officials or keep any records they�d be able to find? It
seems like any alien/human hybrids would no longer be safe in
Roswell--they'd have to go on the lam or "elsewhere"? Both options
sound more expensive to produce and I am not sure that Alex, Maria,
Kyle, and Valenti, all main characters, would have the same
motivation/ability to leave town.

Elliott Member Posts: 850
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2000 07:23 AM
After 'White Room' this is the thread to check out today. I want to
make some comments, but I'm afraid they won't be very organized . . .
I was disturbed by the fact that Pierce mentions Max's blood as the
only anomaly, though Nasedo's comments suggest that it is the brain
that is the seat of the aliens' power. Would not a routine 'picture'
of Max's brain (whether x-ray, EEG or MRI) have shown increased
activity or some other difference from the normal human brain? This
leads me to believe that the writing staff didn't have much time to
think out something they may not have planned to tackle until next
season. I think they have been painting themselves into corners a
bit, and will have to work backwards to make things more coherent
next season.
Re alien powers: I like the idea that each alien has a set of their
own 'specialty' powers, though this makes them distressingly like
comic book super heroes like the Fantastic Four rather than like the
kind of aliens we have been speculating about. This leads one to
wonder how much (if at all) the individual personalities of the
aliens affects what their powers are. Are the powers a reflection of
each aliens' character and personality strengths? So far, Isabel's
seem based on empathy and both conscious and subconscious emotions.
Max's seem Messianic in that he can heal and seems to also have
great compassion. Tess' all seem to be about manipulation and
trickery. I foresee a fun season ahead if time is spent letting the
aliens learn what their specific powers are and work hard to develop
them, both individually and as a group. But as LSS points out above,
exactly how does stepped-up brain activity allow one to heal a dying
person?
Apart from being a trickster, is Tess emotionless? We really need to
know more about her, her upbringing and motivations before we can
say with any certainty. And was Emilie de Ravin's impassive
expression meant to signal something in Tess, or was it merely
wooden acting? (I'm not this actress's biggest fan). You decide.
By the way, I think we saw evidence of Superman-like super speed
last night. We have seen hints of it before (Max in 'Blind Date')
but here we actually see him sense Pierce and then pin him to the
wall in a split second.
As an aside, let me say that I hadn't expected that the
scalpel-wielding surgeon would actually cut into Max, and I was very
shocked when he did. In my opinion, Max shouldn't heal this wound
with his powers, but rather should let it heal naturally and then
not remove the scar. This should be for remembrance, as I feel this
traumatic (but highly revealing) experience should provide a crucial
turning point for him. And it may be the first battle scar(though
perhaps not the last)in what is shaping up to be a war of sorts.
Re the mating pairs and their 'Destiny': I never bought this idea
and I buy it even less now. Whether this 'plan' is erroneous,
exaggerated or an outright lie, 'The White Room' provided more
ammunition than ever for all four aliens to do what Max has never
waivered from: freely chosing their own future mates and destinies.
I must say that the lack of any parents in this episode was
ludicrous. Had the show not etched the parents of Max, Is and Liz so
vividly and coherently in their few appearances to date, we would
likely not miss them otherwise. TV shows (and novels and comics)
about a world of teens without parents is something we are used to,
and these fictions have their uses. But ROSWELL wasn't such a show.
And it's too bad if the WB feels it must now become one.
[This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 05-09-2000).]

HollyLou Member Posts: 330
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2000 08:10 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
You are the science person among us--in what way would the death
of Hubble's wife served the purpose of collecting material to
bioengineer our aliens--or would it?
I know the idea of fetal tissue taken from Sheila Hubble and being
used in the bioengineering of our aliens has been tossed around a
lot on this thread. It always makes me think back to a comment that
Hubble made to Max. In response to Max's question of what did these
alines look like, Hubble answers "a lot like you.....or me."
Something to that effect. Try as I may I can't seem to make this
comment fit into the aforementioned theory but I'm throwing it out
there!

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 08:34 AM
JanetMG: I share your concern about Roswell as a safe place for our
teens to be post-White Room. When Adam (in the books) finally put
tht installation behind him (and Eagle Rock Military Base seems to
mirror the one Adam was kept in) you will remember that he
incinerated the whole thing (along with Valenti who in that Roswell
universe remained a villain). I wonder if Eagle Rock is going up in
flames in the last episode? If so, then all that damning evidence
may be be destroyed--But you are right--the writers are going to
have to give us something to make our teens continued existence in
Roswell plausible (but remember not to expect too much--these are
the same writers that gave us Max's somewhat "lame" amnesia to get
him out of his actions in BD).
Elliot: Just to comment on two things in your post. On a previous
thread concerning the aliens' powers, posters speculated as to the
differences in powers between the aliens. While some can be
explained due to the individual's maturity or focus, others seemed
to be gender specific (i.e. dream-walking). But this last episode
has me wondering if there aren't some that are individual specific.
Izzy had to explain to Tess what dreamwalking was--that threw me for
a loop--if she is female why can't Tess dreamwalk? Either Tess
simply hasn't been instructed in dream walking or else she cannot do
it (and thus it is not gender specific but individual aspecific).
Then again, maybe what all of them need is simply systematic
instruction in their own powers.
After all, as Michael noted--they didn't get a manual!
As for Tess' coldness--YES. With her mate on the line here she is
surprisingly dispassionate (compare her with Izzy's hysteria). I
assume that is the way the role is meant to be played and not a
comment on Emilie's acting abilities. But you know I don't feel
qualified to make that judgment call--how do you distinguish an
enacted woodeness from a real one?
BTW--the SF review for M2TM is up.
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-09-2000).]

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 08:49 AM
POSTSCRIPT:
Elliot I noticed that speed too--and was surprised when it was
followed by Pierce's words that Max's powers had been "dampened".
BTW--I smiled when you mentioned the Fantastic Four. Did I ever tell
you that when other girls my age were reading romance novels--that I
had a budding SF library (I now have over 3500 volumes BTW)? My
"heroes" were Superman, the Legion of Heroes, and the Fantastic
Four. Sigh--I would REALLY have liked to be able to fly and
manipulate matter!

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 08:51 AM
POSTSCRIPT:
Elliot I noticed that speed too--and was surprised when it was
followed by Pierce's words that Max's powers had been "dampened".
BTW--I smiled when you mentioned the Fantastic Four. Did I ever tell
you that when other girls my age were reading romance novels--that I
had a budding SF library (I now have over 3500 volumes BTW)? My
"heroes" were Superman, the Legion of Heroes, and the Fantastic
Four. Sigh--I would REALLY have liked to be able to fly and
manipulate matter!

Leneba Member Posts: 210
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 09:02 AM
What struck me about this episode was how Nasedo seemed to shift
from being really evil (incongruous with the Nasedo that Riverdog
supposedly befriended) to more like a mother bear, ready to do
whatever necessary to protect his "children". We know from the
previous episode that Nasedo is willing to sacrifice anyone to
protect the others, but now it is clear that he includes himself in
that category. He's already experienced the terror of captivity, yet
he stays behind to ensure the escape of the Pod Squad. I don't think
he hates humans, in fact he says he doesn't mind them (or something
like that...I remember thinking that line was funny). They are an
inconsequential factor in his existence, except when one of them
jeopardizes his plans or threatens his charges. I can see a case
being made for Nasedo to become a somewhat sympathetic character.
I found it interesting that while Nasedo doesn't have a human body
or emotions (or more accurately, emotions FOR humans), we now know
he does have an alien body, complete with a bone structure to firmly
anchor him in the corporeal world. I'm thinking of earlier SF
threads where there was quite a bit of speculation on the true
nature of the aliens and whether they were more ethereal beings.
FehrsHairComb said
"our aliens are just a higher class of humans...just as a wolf is a
higher class of dog.", which I think is an interesting and appealing
analogy. However, the domestic dog was bred from wolves, not the
other way around. The wolves are the "true", original breed. So even
though our alien-human hybrids are supposed to represent, at least
in part, where humans will be after several thousand years of
evolution, do they represent what it means to be truly human? To
have use of all of the available brain power?
And that alien blood...wouldn't their bone marrow have to be
different as well? I think this also means there can be no offspring
between, say, Max and Liz. Talk about Rh incomapatability to say the
least! The one beneficial reason I can think of for the writers
making their blood different is that it could be used to explain
their rapid healing and superb immunity. Maybe their alien blood is
capable of carrying more oxygen molecules. Someone with a scientific
background, help me out here!
JanetMG, I was wondering about life going back to normal in Roswell
too. The only way that could happen is with the complete and utter
destruction of that hidden complex and everyone involved.
My last thought--
Even though Max was the one being tortured, I kept thinking "poor
Michael". He clearly has a lot of anger and issues of abandonment to
deal with, more so than Max and Isabel. It will be interesting to
see how he reconciles his desire to connect with Nasedo, his
rejection of some of Nasedo's actions and his own feelings of
abandonment.

GraceKel Member Posts: 490
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 09:03 AM
Yes Elliot, LSS how could he have had that speed if his powers were
dampened-was this a blooper or are we to believe the speed would
have been far greater if...
In the White Room Ep when they show Nasedo who is shapeshifted into
an FBI agent who is coming down the hall-they show across the hall a
small darkened window-if you slow mo it looks like someone is in
there watching what is going on-I wonder if the exit sign cues this
presence.
I am really tired of watching things in slomo but you miss quite a
bit if you do not.

MEP Member Posts: 62
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 09:38 AM
I've been wondering about something ever since I first read the
spoilers for the last few episodes. The writers seem to be cramming
in too many overused clich�s about aliens/UFO phenomena and the
paranormal: the predetermined mating pairs intended to perpetuate
the species, the myth about humans only using a fraction of their
brain capacity, the idea that within several thousand years we will
evolve into these... powers (?!), etc. (I don't want to go into
things which are still spoilers, but it gets much, much worse).
One of the things I really liked about "Roswell" in the first few
episodes was that they tended to make fun of this sort of thing (in
"The UFO Convention" the UFO afficionados are presented as clueless
and in "The Balance", when Alex takes Isabel to the UFO museum to
show her that "van Daaniken"-ish stuff, she just dismisses it as
nonsense). That kept the show real and believable. Now, though... I
don't know what to think.
The way I see it, there are two possibilities:
1) This is the best they could come up with when they were suddenly
forced to play up the sci-fi angle of the story. Yikes!
2) The writers are playing into all these stereotypes on purpose.
This is precisely what one would EXPECT to find out and, given that
they grew up on American pop-culture, it's also what M/M/I are most
likely to believe (other than the truth). I guess what I'm saying is
that if I were trying to perpetrate a hoax, I would probably use
such clich�s as well. So maybe that's what Nasedo is doing (to what
purpose and what role Tess plays is unclear). I, for one, sincerely
hope that this is the case.
Let me make it clear that this is pure speculation (or, more likely,
wishful thinking) on my part. Am I the only one who is really
disturbed by the way things are going?

Elliott Member Posts: 850
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2000 09:47 AM
LSS: I too loved the Fantastic Four and also Spiderman and I always
bought those comics. At the risk of alienating Mr. Manager and
Brendan Fehr (who I like and who I thought was terrific in 'The
White Room') Jason Behr would be the perfect worrying Peter
Parker/Spiderman.
My favorite FF member was Johnny Storm, The Human Torch. FLAME ON!

lise5094 Junior Member Posts: 8
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 09:51 AM
mike said
quote:
Originally posted by Mike Zeares:
Several thousand years would normally be insufficent time for any
major changes to take place. Our DNA is essentially the same as
100,000 years ago, and is nearly the same as our chimp cousins....
Of course, the more likely explanation is that the writers have no
clue about how evolution actually works-- Mike Zeares
I was going to post something very similar to your first paragrtaph:
you couldn't tell the difference between human and chimpanzee or
even pig blood by simply looking under a microscope . You'd need
molecular probes. The evolutionary changes necessary for as much
disparity as shows up here would take far more than even a hundred
thousand years.
And I also agree this is simply fantasy and we shouldn't expect the
science to be hard.
But did they have to use PLANT cells for Max's? Try millions of
years of evolutionary divergence.
By the way, Elliott, a routine xray or even CAT scan of the brain
would not necessarily look different. Those tests evaluate
structure, not function. But a PET scan, which evaluates brain
fuction in terms of glucose uptake in metabolically active brain
cells, would be fascinating in an alien who ingests tic tacs, mashed
potatoes, or cotton candy before using his powers. (Of course, I'm
confusing Nasedo's consumption with Max's brain here, but you get
the point.)
Lise

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 10:02 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Elliott:
This leads one to wonder how much (if at all) the individual
personalities of the aliens affects what their powers are. Are the
powers a reflection of each aliens' character and personality
strengths?
* * *
But as LSS points out above, exactly how does stepped-up brain
activity allow one to heal a dying person?
* * *
Re the mating pairs and their 'Destiny': I never bought this idea
and I buy it even less now.
Interesting points, Elliott & LSS. Just wanted to throw a couple
counter-possibilities (but it s/b a word) out there.
1) It could be the other way around--their powers and abilities
could have shaped their personalities. It may be Max's alien side
that has made him the kind of human that he is. It seems more likely
to me that the nature & nurture elements feed off of each other. Our
trio has not developed their powers much, the latent powers may have
led to certain personality traits and it makes sense that what
little development they have done has focused on powers consistent
with their personalities.
2) The idea that their powers are enhanced "human" powers reminds me
a lot of the Darkover series by Marion Zimmer Bradley. As
FehrsHairComb mentioned, there are plenty of stories at least that
some human have powers such as telepathy, prognostication, and
telekinesis. In MZB's series, the planet Darkover was initially
inhabited by humans, some of whom had some very minor, undeveloped
psi abilities. The hostile physical environment and loss of a
culture that discourages belief in psi powers combined with the
passage of time and some pretty restrictive breeding programs led to
the development of "laran." The types of "laran" vary widely, but
they include the power to heal, which (if I recall correctly) is
described as a manipulation of the molecules/tissues etc. involved,
combined with an ability to visualize how the molecules/tissues etc.
should be connected.
3) I don't buy the mating pairs theory, either. But if indeed Max
has changed Liz and made her similar to MMIT, it seems to me there
could be a "repopulation" purpose. It would lessen the time &
genetic diversity problems posed by the mating pairs scenario, if
Max (and possibly the others) could simply "change" other humans.
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 05-09-2000).]
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 05-09-2000).]

ssv Member Posts: 892
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 10:21 AM
Okay I have 2 questions to ask and would like help on the answers.
1.If tess has the power to make people see what she wants them to
see then how does this explain liz seeing max kiss tess in the
rain(could this be actual reality)?
2.Did tess make the trio see what she wanted them to see in the
desert about how they came out of the pods?Could this explain why
the two stories are different(the one max explain to liz and the one
he saw in the desert)or did max really remember?

Roswellite Member Posts: 80
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:03 AM
Good point! I guess now we can assume that many of the visions M/M &
I saw when they were with Tess were induced by Tess herself - the
pairings of Tess and Max
- M/M&I coming out of the pods and seeing Tess still inside
(although this one is likely to be true)
- the visions of Isabel with Michael
- any others?
When Liz saw Max kissing Tess in the rain - that really happened in
reality. But Tess forced some kind of mojo on him to make him do
that. Just like when she made Isabel see that Tess was being taken
away by the FBI - Isabel rushed off her feet and started to chase
them. It's like she's making them have hallucinations. But their
actions are still their own - see what I'm trying to say?
Nasedo- How will Nasedo intervene when the Pod Squad is
comtemplating what their destiny is? Surely he will try to convince
them that there is no other way and not following their alien
destiny is preposterus. The most interesting scenes last night BTW
were the ones with Max and Nasedo - escpecially Harding/Nasedo. I
believe, for the record, that Nasedo is not evil just has little
regard for human life in the grand scheme of things - much like the
Cigarette Smoking Man on X-files. He kills when he feels he has to
and makes no apologies. Nasedo's lack of human emotions makes that
part easy. Max, Isabel and Michael are no where near capable of
making these compromises for the sake of their "mission", whatever
that may be. They could never willingly kill anyone - rendering them
weak. What will be Max's relationship to Nasedo? I think
antagonistic at best.

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:11 AM
JanetMG
You wrote of Zimmer Bradley's fictive universe [Darkover series; a
kind of sword and socery type of story cast in the SF framework of a
lost colony in conflict with the Terran Empire]:
"The types of "laran" vary widely, but they include the power to
heal, which (if I recall correctly) is described as a manipulation
of the molecules/tissues etc. involved, combined with an ability to
visualize how the molecules/tissues etc. should be connected."
True (I can't remember which of the Comyn families [the ruling
caste] have healing powers) -- but there is also the matrix and
crystals that augment laran...not to mention the matrix technicians
at the towers. Zimmer-Bradley has woven a weird mixture of
technology and psi powers into her Darkover universe.
BTW--there you have a situation where powers are family specific.
For those interested in the analogy JanetMG is making, here is an
excerp from the Darkover Encyclopedia website that describes the
aspect of "laran" to which Janet is referring:
"Telekinesis
The most impressive aspect of laran is telekinesis, which allows the
telepath to move almost anything without actually touching it.
Except in the case of the Hastur gift, telekinesis seems impossible
without
resorting to a matrix to amplify mental powers. It should be noted
here that some people who possess only limited telepathic gifts (a
mild empathy, for example) can learn to use a matrix for telekinetic
manipulations
op. cit., p. 204-205 and 240).
One of the simplest feats learned by beginners is the control of
fire. It is possible to increase or diminish flames, to make a spark
when a fire is almost out, etc. Fire is one of the easiest elements
to invoke, but fullcontrol requires a refined touch (op. cit., pages
203 and following). It is also possible to create light in the
form of a glowing ball: the telepath excites a region of air
molecules so that they produce light (personal guess).
Such control may be exercised over larger objects (inverting the
flow of a waterfall, for example, op. cit., p. 207) as well as very
small things such as the petals of a flower. One can make a rosebud
open by
carefully pulling its petals apart (op. cit., p. 207). In fact,
control can be taken down to the molecular level, as was readily
done during the Ages of Chaos (most notably for genetic
manipulations, op. cit., p. 33). At
the opposite end of the scale, rainfall can be induced by gathering
clouds together (op. cit., p. 204).
It is important to note that the power of a trained telepath is
enormous. For instance, given just one matrix a telepath can turn
the blades of a helicopter fast enough for it to take off (as seen
in op. cit., p. 246). With
a larger matrix and a circle of telepaths, it is literally possible
to move mountains.
Telepaths are also capable of levitation and teleportation (op.
cit., p. 364)."
LSS

Roswellite Member Posts: 80
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:16 AM
Good point! I guess now we can assume that many of the visions M/M &
I saw when they were with Tess were induced by Tess herself - the
pairings of Tess and Max
- M/M&I coming out of the pods and seeing Tess still inside
(although this one is likely to be true)
- the visions of Isabel with Michael
- any others?
When Liz saw Max kissing Tess in the rain - that really happened in
reality. But Tess forced some kind of mojo on him to make him do
that. Just like when she made Isabel see that Tess was being taken
away by the FBI - Isabel rushed off her feet and started to chase
them. It's like she's making them have hallucinations. But their
actions are still their own - see what I'm trying to say?
Nasedo- How will Nasedo intervene when the Pod Squad is
comtemplating what their destiny is? Surely he will try to convince
them that there is no other way and not following their alien
destiny is preposterus. The most interesting scenes last night BTW
were the ones with Max and Nasedo - escpecially Harding/Nasedo. I
believe, for the record, that Nasedo is not evil just has little
regard for human life in the grand scheme of things - much like the
Cigarette Smoking Man on X-files. He kills when he feels he has to
and makes no apologies. Nasedo's lack of human emotions makes that
part easy. Max, Isabel and Michael are no where near capable of
making these compromises for the sake of their "mission", whatever
that may be. They could never willingly kill anyone - rendering them
weak. What will be Max's relationship to Nasedo? I think
antagonistic at best.

SunStar
Member
Posts: 28
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:23 AM
OK, first off I usually just lurk on this board. I love reading
everyone�s opinions. It�s very interesting. I wanted to post because
I thought of something rather interesting last night while watching
�White Room� again. I just wanted to see if anyone agreed with me.
Second of all I read through this thread very quickly and I
apologize if I�m repeating thoughts from someone else. I�m at work
and wanted to get this posted to see if anyone had the same
thoughts. Fraz was the only one who was thinking close to what I was
thinking. The post read�
�One thing about Pierce is the lack of human emotions in a human. Is
he all human? He seems completely cold and empty in his eyes.�
That�s exactly what I started to think. Now, this may be a spoiler
to some, but Howie of the Backstreet Boys is going to play an �evil
alien�, right? And from next weeks previews we are told �there are
others��in fact hundreds of others I think it said. Here is my
thought. Pierce seemed to be more interested in finding the other
orb and how they are both used. Why? I am really leaning in the
direction that he is one of the �evil aliens�. He does seem cold and
unfeeling. He seems to be a lot like Nacedo. And joining our
government would be a great way to locate the aliens these
supposedly evil ones are looking for, right? I really think Pierce
is an alien.
As for him thinking Max was Nasedo, that�s confusing to me. At
first, that�s what I thought, but as he interrogated Max, I wasn�t
sure what he was thinking. But, I think he changed his mind after
seeing all the tests. He knew he didn�t have Nasedo because Max was
part human. From the speech he made, they studied the aliens very
carefully. They were not human. So, after seeing the results of the
tests done on Max, he knew he had one of the four kids he wanted so
badly. I think he acted pretty smug once he saw those results. Like
he knew something we didn�t. One other reason I think he�s an alien.

silver.star Member Posts: 53
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:24 AM
I posted this on another thread but I think it fits better here:
My opinion--
Nasedo: Not evil, just a protector of our fab 3. He does what he has
to do to stay alive & protect his family (not that I agree he should
have killed everyone).
Pierce: Un-evolved human acting with no emotion (just like Nasedo).
Just like most humans at this point, afraid of change, afraid of the
unknown. We could poke and prod on something if it is not like 100%
human beings and never really understand the question in mind- how
can this be? I am not sure but I think Pierce has some hidden agenda
with the advanced humans beyond the FBI (some how I think he is
taking this to a personal level). There is something Pierce and the
special unit are not saying about their involvement with the
aliens/advanced humans.
**Who is not to say that a thousand years from now we will have that
power, humans would have developed the full potential of their
brains. It has been known that some have the capability to use more
of their brainpower for certain things. Our blood cells may change
in someway to accommodate this in the future. Right now I am having
a hard time figuring out the alien side of our fab 3. They were
born, engineered as we may say, to have the advanced use of their
brain (which is human), this is where their powers come from. **
***This brings me back to the possibility of the FBI/alien
collaboration in the 1950�s. With a sample of blood from our
advanced human/aliens we were able to engineer 4 superior human
beings. When things began to take a turn for the worse (why I am
still debating) Nasedo hid them and so began the story.***
Max/Liz/Tess: What a triangle! It must have been in the engineering
of our advanced humans to mate with each other (probably under the
research of the FBI). Out in the real world where they have been
living as quite, normal human beings their fate/destiny has been
altered. Like I have mentioned before Tess was to leave with M/M/I
when they were born, but she did not. Max felt (knew) Liz was the
one for him since the first time he saw her. When Max healed Liz we
all have come to the conclusion that something changed inside of
her. Liz now has the ability to see visions of the past (possibly
the future). Do you think someway, somehow he changed something in
her blood as well? Altered her brainpower in someway? What do you
think would happen if someone would take a sample of Liz�s blood?
What would they find? I truly believe that Tess is no longer a part
of Max the way she was intended. Living apart from Max all those
years altered the destiny/fate that Nasedo has schooled her on. **on
the thought of the photos of Max in the box-they were probably
stolen from the FBI by Nasedo (out of the blue but I thought I�d
drop my opinion on this anyway).** There is a thing called free will
in humans�.even the most advanced. We have to remember, even though
they are advanced in many ways our fab 3 are still HUMAN!
Michael/Maria: Realistic couple (in my opinion) all the ups and
downs of a relationship. Wanting to be together but something
standing in the way. I see that he does care for her but does not
want to hurt her. I see that he trusts her and she trusts him. I
don�t see the fire that I see in M/L because Michael is afraid to
let her in. I have seen Michael searching for who he is wanted so
much to find out more of his �alien� side, to find out that he is
more human than he wanted to believe. I am hoping this will change
M/M relationship and bring it to a new level (personal opinion).
These two belong together just as much as M/L.
Isabelle/Alex: Not sure why I like these two together, maybe its
because of Alex being so sweet and understanding. Isabelle has
needed someone to hold her and care for her the way Max has Liz and
Michael has Maria. Even though she presents herself as strong and
independent, when really she is scared and feeling alone. Seems to
me that Alex is being strong for the both right now and she needs
that.
***********************************************
I am sorry if my thoughts are not complete, it is hard to do this
while at work. Sorry its so long.
***********************************************
[This message has been edited by Liz (edited 05-09-2000).]

mattia Member Posts: 738
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:31 AM
just a couple of things:
on the human structure and mating pairs:
totally don't buy the pairs. If they were "made" to be "super"
humans and live on earth, then their bodies would be compatable with
humans. Right now, there is only 4 of them, which gives procreation
problems down the line (inter-breeding) so, I guessed their bodies
were human so they could mix with the humans, if not, why make them
different from nacedo?
and we have to bring up Tess....... I totally believe she made max
see what she wanted him to see. When he would not give in to their
"destiny" she forced him. Maybe in an ideal situation, they would
have paired off perfectly and such, but things did not go as
expected and that changes everything. Just as Tess was raised by
nacedo and the 3 by humans.
It is a nature vs. nurture issue. I believe both make up who you
are. This is where the 3 pod squaders are going to have to decide to
follow theri supposed nature, or still believe in the things they
were raised to believe. Although the nature side might suggest Tess
and Max belong together, the nuture side says to go with liz.

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:32 AM
ssv
You wrote:
"Did tess make the trio see what she wanted them to see in the
desert about how they came out of the pods? Could this explain why
the two stories are different(the one max explain to liz and the one
he saw in the desert)or did max really remember?"
Since we now know that Tess can project images--and since Izzy
quickly points out that that was what was really happening to
Max--then what you say is possible. We might raise the issue,
however, as to the radius of this projection (and how many people
she can "touch" at one time. Did you notice how we "saw" the field
around the orbs when we (the audience) were in proximity to Pierce,
but when we were with the agents outside looking in--all we saw was
Pierce mesmerized by -- nothing. [Rosta--BTW how would this
observation fit with your theory that Max was really able to "do"
something with the orbs? If he was--why couldn't we "see" it looking
into the room from the agents POV?]
Someone earlier suggested that all that we are being told SF wise is
simply too cliche--and that this is proof that this whole storyline
is a fabrication on the part of either Nesedo/Tess or at least one
of them.
I can't tell you how much I would like to believe this--but I need
more proof before I buy into this theory (if for no other reason
than I'm biased--I really like it TOO much).
LSS
P.S. This is OT but can anyone e-mail me with directions as to how
to do that neat indented quote thing? Then I can stop typing all the
time "you wrote..."!

Faile Member Posts: 80
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:37 AM
Now we know that the Pod Squad are human, advanced humans, but still
human. What was happening to Liz in Sexual Healing? There was the
implication that something was happening to her. Was this caused by
Nasedo and not her connection, Nasedo is not human after all. Was he
able to relay information to her? It seems that some of the images
she was seeing couldn't really be coming from Max, such as the
running through the desert with the army chasing and the burying of
the orb. I guess this is a little off topic with regards to WHITE
ROOM, but these questions came to mind after this episode.

Elliott Member Posts: 850
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:58 AM
Regarding theories about Pierce . . .
SunStar: I like your theory that Pierce may be an alien of some kind
himself. Maybe an Evil Alien, but also maybe an 'advanced' human
prototype like M,I & M, though he may not be aware of it. I was
struck by a line of dialogue that Harding speaks to Tess at the
beginning of 'Max to the Max.' He tells her that Pierce 'is closer
to you than any of the others.' Perhaps significantly, this line was
repeated in the prologue to last night's episode. Which
superficially sounds as though he means that Pierce is on their
trail and close to capturing one or more of them. But oddly, the
first reading that occurred to me was that he meant closer
biologically or genetically than any of the other alien hunters
Harding had to kill.
silver.star: Conversely, your theory has it that Pierce is a cold
human with a vendetta. Last week someone (sorry, but I don't
remember who) suggested that Pierce's anecdote about his dedicated
father meeting an untimely end may have been honest, and that Dad
may have been killed by aliens, hence Pierce's bitterness toward
them. The only thing mitigating against that, is that he didn't
mention his father to Max when listing the names of those who had
been killed by Nasedo. Or did he?

Roswellite Member Posts: 80
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:07 PM
Another question: if Max, Michael and Isabel have such advanced
human brains - then why haven't we seen them to be geniuses or
prodigies (like Elliot said)?
I mean it seems like Max is a straight A student - so big deal! And
what about Michael and Isabel? Why don't we see them playing musical
instruments, painting like rembrandt, or having highly advanced
thinking power - we saw in 285 South that Michael memorized a
passage from Ulysses but most other times he seems a little dense.
Isabel just does along with whatever Max says. Alex had to remind
her that she could dream walk!

Roswellite Member Posts: 80
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:13 PM
Another question: if Max, Michael and Isabel have such advanced
human brains - then why haven't we seen them to be geniuses or
prodigies (like Elliot said)?
I mean it seems like Max is a straight A student - so big deal! And
what about Michael and Isabel? Why don't we see them playing musical
instruments, painting like rembrandt, or having highly advanced
thinking power - we saw in 285 South that Michael memorized a
passage from Ulysses but most other times he seems a little dense.
Isabel just does along with whatever Max says. Alex had to remind
her that she could dream walk!

Roswellite Member Posts: 80
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:24 PM
Another question: if Max, Michael and Isabel have such advanced
human brains - then why haven't we seen them to be geniuses or
prodigies (like Elliot said)?
I mean it seems like Max is a straight A student - so big deal! And
what about Michael and Isabel? Why don't we see them playing musical
instruments, painting like rembrandt, or having highly advanced
thinking power - we saw in 285 South that Michael memorized a
passage from Ulysses but most other times he seems a little dense.
Isabel just does along with whatever Max says. Alex had to remind
her that she could dream walk!

Heart of Ice Member Posts: 260
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:35 PM
This damned double post will not die . . .
die, post, die! (sorry, had to vent!)
[This message has been edited by Heart of Ice (edited 05-09-2000).]

silver.star Member Posts: 53
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:45 PM
Elliot:
To your response about Pierce, I did not read the theory about his
father or I dont recall him saying his father was killed by aliens,
just in the line of duty.. These are just thoughts I have had
without reading others posts....I do like the whole bad alien thing
tho.

silver.star Member Posts: 53
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 12:51 PM
Double posting ...... sorry
[This message has been edited by silver.star (edited 05-10-2000).]

Jugular Member Posts: 169
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 12:53 PM
After last night's show, I too began to wonder if Agent Pierce had
some hidden agenda. His father was killed in the line of duty, but
maybe it was by the hands of Nasedo. That would probably be reason
enough to go after the alien(s) that killed him. But what else don't
we know? Who was his father? Hubble maybe? Does anyone remember
Hubble mentioning children (besides the fact that his wife was
pregnant at the time of her death). If both of Pierce's parents were
murdered by aliens, geez... I think I would go after them too.
I think the theory of Pierce being an alien is very intriguing!
Especially if you take this into consideration... why hasn't Nasedo
already killed him? We know he's killed before and he can walk
through walls (we think). Why hasn't Nasedo just gone to his office
and kill Pierce off a long time ago? If Pierce's an alien, maybe he
can't be killed, which would explain Nasedo escape from death in
yesterday's episode (I'm spoiler-free so I'm assuming he's still
alive).
So if Pierce and Nasedo are immortal aliens, this series could go on
for ages!

Heart of Ice Member Posts: 260
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2000 01:03 PM
ACK - this double post will NOT die- board's been hit by some Nasedo
mojo.
[This message has been edited by Heart of Ice (edited 05-09-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Heart of Ice (edited 05-09-2000).]

Jugular Member Posts: 169
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 01:30 PM
After last night's show, I too began to wonder if Agent Pierce had
some hidden agenda. His father was killed in the line of duty, but
maybe it was by the hands of Nasedo. That would probably be reason
enough to go after the alien(s) that killed him. But what else don't
we know? Who was his father? Hubble maybe? Does anyone remember
Hubble mentioning children (besides the fact that his wife was
pregnant at the time of her death). If both of Pierce's parents were
murdered by aliens, geez... I think I would go after them too.
I think the theory of Pierce being an alien is very intriguing!
Especially if you take this into consideration... why hasn't Nasedo
already killed him? We know he's killed before and he can walk
through walls (we think). Why hasn't Nasedo just gone to his office
and kill Pierce off a long time ago? If Pierce's an alien, maybe he
can't be killed, which would explain Nasedo escape from death in
yesterday's episode (I'm spoiler-free so I'm assuming he's still
alive).
So if Pierce and Nasedo are immortal aliens, this series could go on
for ages!

Jugular Member Posts: 169
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 01:35 PM
After last night's show, I too began to wonder if Agent Pierce had
some hidden agenda. His father was killed in the line of duty, but
maybe it was by the hands of Nasedo. That would probably be reason
enough to go after the alien(s) that killed him. But what else don't
we know? Who was his father? Hubble maybe? Does anyone remember
Hubble mentioning children (besides the fact that his wife was
pregnant at the time of her death). If both of Pierce's parents were
murdered by aliens, geez... I think I would go after them too.
I think the theory of Pierce being an alien is very intriguing!
Especially if you take this into consideration... why hasn't Nasedo
already killed him? We know he's killed before and he can walk
through walls (we think). Why hasn't Nasedo just gone to his office
and kill Pierce off a long time ago? If Pierce's an alien, maybe he
can't be killed, which would explain Nasedo escape from death in
yesterday's episode (I'm spoiler-free so I'm assuming he's still
alive).
So if Pierce and Nasedo are immortal aliens, this series could go on
for ages!

RemyS Member Posts: 166
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 01:37 PM
***I'm at work and should be working on financial statements, but,
after "White Room", I am still too emotionally drained for anything
else but Roswell, so here goes. Perhaps there should be a therapy
thread for those of us who don't normally deal with emotional issues
in real life (like Michael and his stone wall), but who have felt
that wall collapsing with each new episode. If the season doesn't
end soon, I'll be eligible for my own "White Room" or at best a
padded cell.
I have more questions than answers, so I will list my thoughts, and
would appreciate any feedback given.
1. How is it that No One questioned Nacedo's motives for kidnapping
Liz? Everyone accepted his help without blaming him for getting Max
captured in the first place. I find this unbelievable. As Tepp
stated on the SF of M2tM, his actions to lead Pierce to him by
shapeshifting into Max, kidnapping Liz, thereby making Max a wanted
criminal were stupid. What was he trying to accomplish? If it was to
protect Max and the others, they would have been better off without
him. This was a PLAN???? And then, after his exploits caused the
capture of Max, no one even mentions his lame actions. I find this
unbelievable.
2. LSS and Elliott, I too noticed Max' lightning speed as he slammed
Pierce against the wall. My first thoughts were "Watch out, we have
awakened a sleeping dragon." Does Max have another side to him that
has is just now starting to surface? Or was it merely the survival
instinct for possible escape? I thought Max had a look of a killer
in him at that moment. A bit scary to say the least. In the last few
episodes, we have seen Max become increasingly more violent in words
and deeds. (Hitting Michael -- one such example.) I'm a Behrian
Dreamgirl, so I'm not looking or speculating that he has a bad or
dark side, but I find it interesting that he has become more
aggressive in these new eps.
3. JanetMG, you mention the relationship between Tess and Nacedo,
and how bossy Tess is with him. From their first appearance, I have
been troubled by their interaction. I wonder if Tess is not the
leader of this duo, perhaps even "Nacedo" herself, but with a hidden
agenda that warrants her disguise as a 4th alien for the time being.
She could be the one of the two aliens found alive, Mr.
Harding/Nacedo? the other. And from the way she talks to him, as
though she has the upper hand, I would venture to guess that it is
she who is calling the shots, regardless of what we are led to
believe. My Dreamgirl heart hopes for this (will never, never accept
willingly her part of the pod squad). But I am basing most of this
on observations.
4. Lastly, there is a question that has been on my mind for some
time. Perhaps it was answered on another thread, or perhaps I am
missing the obvious in one of the eps, although I have seen them all
numerous times, and don't feel that the answer is there. Exactly
how, when, and why did Max, Isabel, and Michael come to the
conclusion that they were aliens? The "crash" occurred in 1947, they
emerged from the pods in 1989 looking like 6 yr. olds. What possible
references would they have to associate with to come to the
conclusion that their "pod birth" had anything to do with a
so-called "hoaxy" UFO crash 42 years prior? Up until Max enlightens
Liz of their "origin", they have spoken to NO ONE about it. So where
did they get the notion that they were aliens? Even when they
realized they had powers, why would they assume it was because they
were aliens, not of this earth? Being different wouldn't necessarily
make you an alien. In the pilot, Michael tells Max and Isabel, "This
isn't home. It's not even in our solar system." How does he know
that? What references are they drawing from? Is it knowledge that is
inherent? As Michael says, "He didn't get the manual." Well, since
they really didn't get anything from anyone at anytime, how, when,
and why do they conclude that they are aliens? Just part of the
script? Can anyone help me out here?
Must get back to work. Thanks for letting me vent. My shattered
nervous system needed this desperately.

RemyS Member Posts: 166
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 01:43 PM
***Double Post --- As Mr. Bill (SNL) would say, "Oooooh No!"
[This message has been edited by RemyS (edited 05-10-2000).]

SF Member Posts: 88
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 01:51 PM
Delurking quickly. Just wanted to say kudos to Rosta for totally
nailing the plotline. Way back on the SF of SH thread Rosta was
convinced, and has stayed convinced, that MMIT were hybrids, and
that they were essentially human, just using all of their human
potential, versus us slackers using the big old 10% of our brains.
Looking forward to reading everyone's posts. The white room sure
gave us the mother lode of information.

SF Member Posts: 88
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 01:56 PM
Delurking quickly. Just wanted to say kudos to Rosta for totally
nailing the plotline. Way back on the SF of SH thread Rosta was
convinced, and has stayed convinced, that MMIT were hybrids, and
that they were essentially human, just using all of their human
potential, versus us slackers using the big old 10% of our brains.
Looking forward to reading everyone's posts. The white room sure
gave us the mother lode of information.

SF
Member

Posts: 88
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 02:02 PM
Delurking quickly. Just wanted to say kudos to Rosta for totally
nailing the plotline. Way back on the SF of SH thread Rosta was
convinced, and has stayed convinced, that MMIT were hybrids, and
that they were essentially human, just using all of their human
potential, versus us slackers using the big old 10% of our brains.
Looking forward to reading everyone's posts. The white room sure
gave us the mother lode of information.

SF Member Posts: 88
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-09-2000 02:07 PM
Delurking quickly. Just wanted to say kudos to Rosta for totally
nailing the plotline. Way back on the SF of SH thread Rosta was
convinced, and has stayed convinced, that MMIT were hybrids, and
that they were essentially human, just using all of their human
potential, versus us slackers using the big old 10% of our brains.
Looking forward to reading everyone's posts. The white room sure
gave us the mother lode of information.

alex188 Member Posts: 483
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-09-2000 02:19 PM
This was a wonderful eppy. With Max's screams and looks of fear, I
felt so bad for him, I so wanted to go and hug him. I wanted to kill
Pierce so much! He was SO evil! Isabel did a great job. I liked the
part when she first woke up from her first dream walk to Max's head.
Tess doesn't seem so bad ne more. I am starting to like her. I am
glad Liz had finally went to Valenti and asked for help! I like the
trust thing that is finally growing among the gang.

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:03 PM
Jugular wrote:
"If Pierce is an alien, maybe he can't be killed,"
But remember Tess assumed that Pierce could be killed and that it
was Nesedo's plan to do so--that's why everyone hurried to the
carnival. Of course, maybe she was wrong, but somehow I don't think
so.
RemyS wrote:
"Does Max have another side to him that has is just now starting to
surface? Or was it merely the survival instinct for possible escape?"
You know, the "awakening" of those biological urges that Max tells
Izzy and Michael about, seem to awaken emotional resonses of anger
in Max as well! Either that or Max's precious control is being SO
challenged that when it breaks down on the sexual level, it breaks
in other areas as well. I mean--let's admit it folks--he as gone
from being too shy to kiss Liz to following her around as if she
were in heat (SH) and then making out with her in the jeep, in the
cafe--heck, anywhere he can! {NOTE: I am NOT complaining here--just
drawing attention to his behavior.]Is it so surprising then, that
the violence that before found its object only on a toilet stall
door (Leaving Normal) now finds expression against Michael's jaw?
And RemyS--I agree that there is an enormous plothole regarding
Liz's kidnapping. I mean NO ONE even addresses it--or even asks her
what Nesedo was like (and we know she could fill them in on quite a
few juicy details).
LSS

RemyS Member Posts: 166
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:04 PM
***Are there missing posts somewhere in the alien abyss?

Kath7 Member Posts: 127
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:05 PM
RemyS - just wanted to comment that your posts on this thread always
make me laugh - last time's quadrillion-post and then this times
"I'll be eligible for the White Room" -priceless! Probably because I
can so relate - I don't want the season to end because I want
Roswell to go on and on, but if it doesn't and I don't take a
breather, I may have a nervous breakdown!
As for the Sci-Fi - I have only seen White Room once and was so
hypnotized by it, I don't think I really caught any nuances...I was
very disturbed by Pierce, however, and did catch his reference to
the alien they had studied for three years - I didn't get the
impression that it was Nacedo, although I think Nacedo made a
comment about having escaped from the Installation before...just how
many aliens are there running around for Pete's Sake!
I did like the fact that it is made clear that M,M and I (I refuse
to include Tess in with my beloved trio!) are inherently human...the
dreamgirl in me heaved a sigh of relief...differing blood aside,
there is a legitimate chance now for Max and Liz...and if Liz has
been changed as has been speculated here, then the chances are even
better. Destiny be damned...
I really have nothing new to contribute this week, but thought I
would pop in anyway to say hi and let everyone know I'm still
lurking. This continues to be the most interesting and intelligent
thread on this board by far!

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:07 PM
editing--we only need this post once!
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-09-2000).]

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:12 PM
editing a triple post--My god--what IS it with the board today?
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-09-2000).]

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 06:30 PM
this is a bump to get a post to show

Ms. Bella Member Posts: 132
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 07:11 PM
Time to delurk! By hitting the sci-fi aspect so hard in these last
eps, it seems the writers are just bringing up more questions than
they are answering.
Thank God for ya'll!
I'm sorry, but my computer won't allow me to go back and reference
who said what, but let me try to paraphrase.
Loved the wolf vs dog idea. Taking that a bit further, we see Max
becoming more aggressive in these last few eps. I don't care how
much of a pacifist you are, when you are in real danger, truly
threatened, your body reacts with adrenalin, fight or flight. Max's
early response was to tuck his tail between his legs and slink away,
pretend the threat wasn't there. Now we're seeing Max's willingness
to fight. I don't read spoilers but can't help but be spoiled anyway
-- no matter what his destiny is supposed to be, Max has the
capability to meet violence with violence, as we saw with his
attempted attack of Pierce. I think this is an important plot
development.
We now have our suspicians about Tess confirmed, that she can create
these visions. But I'm still not clear as to why some of the visions
are black and white (Tess and Max at the Jeep by the cave), while
the other visions she created were in color. Can anyone turn on a
lightbulb for me on that one?
The blood cells: okay, just an easy plot contrivance. However, the
cerebral cortex emphasis, as well as the well-known fact that humans
don't use all areas of their brain, allows that one to pass. Several
thousand years ahead in evolution...okay. After all, the mental
stimulation the average person gets nowadays thanks to TV, radio,
the internet, etc. requires us to have filters and to multitask like
no other generation has ever had to do. Evolution?
Remember in Star Wars, how Luke could just jump into any ship and
fly it, or in the case of the M. Falcon, use the weaponry? I always
thought that was far-fetched...but now with the sophisticated
computer games developing extreme hand/coordination, it doesn't seem
quite so far-fetched any more.
We all know we're not dealing with clear sci-fi here. Due to the
diverse audience of Roswell, they are giving us "easy sci-fi" (is
that like easy-listening???) which is exacerbated by how the
writers/producers were forced by the network to take this show on a
tangent in a short time-frame.
But I just realized that they could be giving themselves an easy out
with the whole "Tess can make you see things" storyline. Did they
really rewrite the history in River Dog, or are we just being told a
version of the bible according to Tess? Are we going to later find
out that what Max learned at the end of TLV is really just a forced
vision? I'd rather believe that than believe the network forced the
writers into a corner.
Was it Janet that mentioned that Roswell will no longer be safe for
any of our people again? I hope we're not going to be asked to
stretch our credibility too thin here. I hope they go with the
Melinda Metz solution from the books, and blow up the installation.
Because otherwise none of them are safe, as Pierce knows about the
6, as well as Valenti making the rescue. So lets hope for the easy
resolution to that one. (It's times like these I'm tempted to read
spoilers, but I'm just gonna say NO!).
Any Heinlein fans here? The reason he is my favorite sci-fi writer
is because he always kept the human interest as the focus of the
story, no matter what wild sci-fi futuristic stuff was happening.
That's what I'm hoping Roswell will continue to do, because what I
really care about are the characters, not their "new power of the
week". Unless that power of the week is motivated by some emotional
growth, which translates into character development. I see Roswell
walking a fine line right now, and I just hope that they move into
the second season keeping this in mind.
Anyway, I'm running out of steam here! Hope this makes sense!

Ms. Bella Member Posts: 132
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 07:49 PM
Time to delurk! By hitting the sci-fi aspect so hard in these last
eps, it seems the writers are just bringing up more questions than
they are answering.
Thank God for ya'll!
I'm sorry, but my computer won't allow me to go back and reference
who said what, but let me try to paraphrase.
Loved the wolf vs dog idea. Taking that a bit further, we see Max
becoming more aggressive in these last few eps. I don't care how
much of a pacifist you are, when you are in real danger, truly
threatened, your body reacts with adrenalin, fight or flight. Max's
early response was to tuck his tail between his legs and slink away,
pretend the threat wasn't there. Now we're seeing Max's willingness
to fight. I don't read spoilers but can't help but be spoiled anyway
-- no matter what his destiny is supposed to be, Max has the
capability to meet violence with violence, as we saw with his
attempted attack of Pierce. I think this is an important
plot/character development.
We now have our suspicians about Tess confirmed, that she can create
these visions. But I'm still not clear as to why some of the visions
are black and white (Tess and Max at the Jeep by the cave), while
the other visions she created were in color. Can anyone turn on a
lightbulb for me on that one?
The blood cells: okay, just an easy plot contrivance. However, the
cerebral cortex emphasis, as well as the well-known fact that humans
don't use all areas of their brain, allows that one to pass. Several
thousand years ahead in evolution...okay. After all, the mental
stimulation the average person gets nowadays thanks to TV, radio,
the internet, etc. requires us to have filters and to multitask like
no other generation has ever had to do. Evolution?
Remember in Star Wars, how Luke could just jump into any ship and
fly it, or in the case of the M. Falcon, use the weaponry? I always
thought that was far-fetched...but now with the sophisticated
computer games developing extreme hand/coordination, it doesn't seem
quite so far-fetched any more.
We all know we're not dealing with clear sci-fi here. Due to the
diverse audience of Roswell, they are giving us "easy sci-fi" (is
that like easy-listening???) which is exacerbated by how the
writers/producers were forced by the network to take this show on a
tangent in a short time-frame.
But I just realized that they could be giving themselves an easy out
with the whole "Tess can make you see things" storyline. Did they
really rewrite the history in River Dog, or are we just being told a
version of the bible according to Tess? Are we going to later find
out that what Max learned at the end of TLV is really just a forced
vision? I'd rather believe that than believe the network forced the
writers into a corner.
Was it Janet that mentioned that Roswell will no longer be safe for
any of our people again? I hope we're not going to be asked to
stretch our credibility too thin here. I hope they go with the
Melinda Metz solution from the books, and blow up the installation.
Because otherwise none of them are safe, as Pierce knows about the
6, as well as Valenti making the rescue. So lets hope for the easy
resolution to that one. (It's times like these I'm tempted to read
spoilers, but I'm just gonna say NO!).
Any Heinlein fans here? The reason he is my favorite sci-fi writer
is because he always kept the human interest as the focus of the
story, no matter what wild sci-fi futuristic stuff was happening.
That's what I'm hoping Roswell will continue to do, because what I
really care about are the characters, not their "new power of the
week". Unless that power of the week is motivated by some emotional
growth, which translates into character development. I see Roswell
walking a fine line right now, and I just hope that they move into
the second season keeping this in mind.
Anyway, I'm running out of steam here! Hope this makes sense!

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-09-2000 09:34 PM
RemyS: You know I'm anxiously awaiting that explanation myself, but
I don't think we're going to get it. Last we knew, Nasedo lay shot
or seriously wounded inside the white room. I thought I saw him in
the preview trailer, but I don't expect there to be a lot of time
for explanations next week.
I also wondered exactly how and when the trio concluded that they
were extraterrestrial. Max tells Liz that he "knows" that what fell
in 47 "wasn't a weather balloon," but he never says how he knows
this. He knows he came out of a "some kind of incubation pod," and I
can only assume that an alien origin was the most reasonable way he
could explian this memory -- which is not unreasonable I guess.
Now to Tess. She appears to be able to influence only one person
whom she is focusing on. That's why she needed Max to get everyone
out of the room but Pierce. Anyone else there would have seen what
we saw: Pierce making goony eyes at nothing (except at the beginning
of her mojo, when we were seeing the orbs from Pierce's
perspective). So, unfortunately, the rain kiss was real, but that
doesn't mean that it wasn't supernaturally influenced, that Max
wasn't being manipulated against his will. We have Max's word that
he was, and I'm not about to doubt him.
At this point, I'm not as interested in whether or not Tess and
Nasedo are who and what they say they are as I am in MMI's reaction
to them. As I said earlier, Michael more or less rejects Nasedo:
"you're not who I thought you'd be." For one thing, Michael is
surprised to discover that he and Nasedo are "different" kinds of
beings. Michael has been longing for a patriarch, someone who is his
biological parent or who can fill the role of father and offer the
security and guidance Michael has always lacked. Instead Michael
finds that Nasedo himself as well as his values are as alien to
Michael as they are to us. One of the traditional roles of the
father is to teach the child, particularly a son, the proper moral
code (Freud's model for the "superego"). Without any positive
example, Michael has always seemed dangerously free of the kind of
strict moral code that Max and Isabel frequently observe and allude
to. However, when confronted with Nasedo's amoral behavior, Michael
is perhaps more repulsed than we might have expected him to be.
Nasedo's killing the black agent is perhaps no less necessary than
Valenti's shooting Pierce, but Michael is appalled just the same.
As for Trash, I found it very significant that when she demonstrated
her powers, Isabel immediately concluded that Tess had used them to
deceive Max. Tess had earlier offered other explanations for what
had been happening, explanations that evidently Isabel not only
didn't accept on faith but actively distrusted. Ironically, Isabel
reveals her attitude towards Tess when she offers thanks. Tess
assumes that Isabel is responding to something she has just done and
explains that living with Nasedo has taught her a number of tricks.
Isabel clarifies: "no, I mean thank you for helping US get Max back"
(quoted from my memory). Clearly, Isabel does not include Tess in
her inner circle -- "us" -- which definitely includes Michael and
probably Maria, Alex, and Liz as well. If Isabel recognized Tess's
claim to Max, she would have no need to say this (would she have
said it to Liz in similar circumstances?). Michael had earlier
expressed a similar attitude. When the agents wheel the gurney with
the corpse on it down the hall, Isabel voices her fear that it holds
Max's body. Tess, in her typically matter of fact way, proclaims
that she would "know" if anything had happened to Max. All I can
tell you is to go back and look at Michael's expression at that
moment as he looks at Isabel. Trying to describe it verbally runs
the risk of simplifying the message it contains, but something like
"who IS this person?" is what I took from it. In any event, Tess's
confidence isn't enough to soothe MI's fears. They have to see for
themselves.
[This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-09-2000).]

shapeshifter Junior Member Posts: 24
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-09-2000 10:04 PM
Please forgive me for only skimming the *3* pages of posts, but here
are a few more thoughts to ponder (this is great--previously I only
"wrote" science fiction in the shower and then it always vanished
like steam when I got out):
I've heard it said (by scientists?) that we only use a tenth of our
brains, so it wouldn't require physical evolution for humans to be
more advanced with regards to using brain "powers" that were already
there.
And: If Liz is "changed" by her healing in a way that gives her
alien powers, this might make Nasedo have second thoughts about her
value...even if only because she too would be a fugitive and so
would be trustworthy.
Finally: If the show continued long enough, perhaps Nasedo could
undergo a character transformation (the hallmark of Western
literature) in that he would discover emotions. Of course Dr. Spock
never did, did he?

Vicki Junior Member Posts: 4
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 10:52 PM
Do you guys really think expanded human mental abilities in a few
thousand years are so far fetched? People had been making glass for
thousands of years before grinding it into telescopes, microscopes
and eyeglasses became popular. The ancient Greeks and Romans had all
the technology they needed to make them. Apparently the thought just
didn't occur to them to do so. These simple devices expanded human
vision exponentially. Granted it's using a device and not a genetic
change. But say it's something we're already capable of or are
almost capable of and just don't know it yet. A little understanding
could lead to some exponential development in a very short time.
Even when you learn a skill is out there people won't always use it.
With over half the planet covered with water look how many people
never learn to swim. Think of how much sooner we could have
understood meteors if more people had taken a serious look into
those rocks sometimes fall from the sky stories.

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:19 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Vicki:
Do you guys really think expanded human mental abilities in a few
thousand years are so far fetched?
It depends. If we're talking about an already-existing ability that
most of us just don't know how to tap into, then I do think it's
possible. We are learning more and more about the brain all the time
(mostly, how much we DON'T know). Also, governments have been doing
experiments in this area for a long time -- who knows how advanced
their studies are? Stealth fighters were flying for 10 years before
anybody knew about them. Who knows, maybe the Thought Police are
already watching us.
On the other hand, if you mean, could we evolve these powers in a
few thousand years, it's highly unlikely without some kind of
extreme enviromental pressure that would make such powers a survival
trait, and would probably kill off most of the human species. This
assumes that there are at least some individuals who already have
powers. They would be the ones who survive. (for the purpose of this
discussion I'm entertaining the notion that molecular manipulation
is even possible) But will we evolve mental abilities just on our
own, through random mutations? The short answer is probably not.
Major evolutionary changes generally take hundreds of thousands of
years. Of course, if there's some alien species mucking about with
our genetic code, all bets are off.
Mike Zeares

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:39 PM
Vicki:
On an earlier thread when we were discussing the our teens' powers,
I raised the question of which ones could be viewed as simply
extrapolations of what we would call "psi" powers and which ones
would truly be other/alien.
Of all the powers I have seen exhibited thus far in the show, the
only one I have real difficulty envisioning as an extension of "psi
powers" is when Max so radically alters the molecular structure of
an object that it raises the question of whether he is simply
altering matter or creating it. I am thinking here of the scenes in
Blind Date where his power to manipulate seems to strech the
credibility of the audience (Yeah, I know--the audience is not
thinking "credibility," they're simply drooling...but when you've
watched that episode as much as I have, those parking meters turned
sparklers look pretty incredible!).
Mike:
Welcome back!!! You just posted:
"for the purpose of this discussion I'm entertaining the notion that
molecular manipulation is even possible"
Precisely my point. If we are talking credible human powers we could
maybe talk about telekinesis. And the "book" Max actually
manipulates matter by "nudging" and "shoving" the molecules--a kind
of telekinesis on a molecular level. But we are not given that
explanation in the TV series. Moreover, you can nudge and shove all
you want but if the molecules necessary for sparklers are not "in"
the parking meter--then the only way to explain what happen in that
scene in BD is to suggest that Max "created" them. And that is an
example of what I was refering to yesterday as a "poor" SF technical
element--for me, that is. That scene bothered me hours after the
episode was over. Like you, I can suspend my disbelief to accept
that manipulation is possible. But there are limits beyond which I
find it difficult to go. Though I would imagine that my limits as an
"arts" type are vastly different than yours Mike.
Just curious Mike--WOULD the elements for the sparklers be "in" the
meter?
LSS

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:41 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MEP:
I've been wondering about something ever since I first read the
spoilers for the last few episodes. The writers seem to be
cramming in too many overused clich�s about aliens/UFO phenomena
and the paranormal [snip]
The way I see it, there are two possibilities:
1) This is the best they could come up with when they were
suddenly forced to play up the sci-fi angle of the story. Yikes!
2) The writers are playing into all these stereotypes on purpose.
[snip]
Let me make it clear that this is pure speculation (or, more
likely, wishful thinking) on my part. Am I the only one who is
really disturbed by the way things are going?
No, you're not. When I read the spoilers (I can't help it. I'm
weak), I posted on a Usenet group that if they turned out to be
true, I probably wouldn't bother watching the show in Season 2. The
spoilers are so cliche as to be laughable. But then I started
thinking. One of the first SF threads on this board got into stuff
about universal archetypes and "grail quests" and such. The writers
may not be qualified to write good original sf (not a knock; most
writers aren't), but they are certainly qualified to present to us
stories that tap into our culture's collective library, as it were.
So, as you say, they may be using these sci-fi/UFO cliches as a
framework to tell more universal types of stories that will be
recognizable on an almost unconscious level. Most Americans probably
wouldn't recognize references to Greek mythology, but they'll
recognize references to pop sci-fi mythology. There's nothing wrong
with using old ideas (actually, there aren't any other kinds). It's
all in the presentation.
This will only work if they can retain the emotional center of the
show, and I'm a little worried about that. That seems to be missing
in the last few eps, much like the parents. The show at its core
needs to be about the Pod Squad's search for their identity and
attempts to create their own destiny, not their powers or
[spoilers]. However, I'm confident that over the hiatus the writers
can do some brainstorming and find the show's balance again. I also
think it's possible to take the most well-worn cliche and make it
seem fresh. Joss Whedon does it all the time on BUFFY. I'm willing
to take a wait-and-see attiude towards ROSWELL.
Mike Zeares

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-09-2000 11:51 PM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
Just curious Mike--WOULD the elements for the sparklers be "in"
the meter?
Don't wanna think about it. That scene works for me strictly on a
romantic level. I don't just suspend disbelief, I lock it up and
throw away the key. "Blind Date" is one of my fav's. I don't want to
ruin it by picking it apart, you know?
Mike
P.S. to answer your question, I wouldn't know. I don't know what
sparklers are made of, although I know fireworks contain powdered
metals. It would have been nice to have a throw-away scene where
Valenti is reading a report about "vandalized parking meters."

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:12 AM
Mike:
I'm pleasantly surprised--a real romantic and a science type! I
liked that scene too. And out of deference to your sensibilities, we
won't even touch what it would have taken to turn a street lamp into
a heart strobe light!
LSS

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:37 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
Mike:
I'm pleasantly surprised--a real romantic and a science type!
Heh, you don't know the half of it. I read stuff like "Relativity"
by Albert Einstein for fun, and I'm as big a STAR WARS nut as any
guy. I also used to watch BEAUTY AND THE BEAST.
quote:
I liked that scene too. And out of deference to your
sensibilities, we won't even touch what it would have taken to
turn a street lamp into a heart strobe light!
LSS
[Mike covers his ears]
LALALALALA! I CAN'T HEAR YOU! LALALA!
Mike

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:48 AM
One of the reasons I said I thought that the ramifications of the
blood thing were probably not well thought out from the start was
the many "fi" holes in the "sci" of Roswell from the beginning. For
me the most egregious violation of good sense occurs in the pilot
when Isabel is "listening" to the CD without a player. I have only
the most superficial knowledge of physics, but I do know something
of acoustics, and we all know something about digital storage media
or we couldn't be here. There's so many problems with what Isabel is
doing that I wouldn't even know where to start. On the other hand, I
can envision someone bringing that up in a writer's brainstorming
session, and everyone going "yeah, that's really cool." That scene
was singled out as "cool" in at least two of the earliest reviews I
read of Roswell, and I'm sure a lot of viewers shared their
appreciation of it. It accomplished what it was designed to do --
display the facts that the aliens had incredible powers but were
also more or less "normal" American teenagers in an entertaining and
humorous way.
The bottom line is that anyone who holds Roswell to a strict
standard of authenticity or even consistency is going to be
disappointed. That is neither its strong suit nor its emphasis. On
the other hand, I've said many times (in letters to Katims and the
WB for example) that Roswell is the freshest take on science fiction
conventions I've ever seen. Its basic premise offers an incredible
platform for telling stories. Like many, I fear that recent and
apparent future developments threaten to circumscribe some of its
possibilities. Nonetheless, I think we owe its creators the benefit
of the doubt. They've earned it.

Sniglet Member Posts: 497
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2000 01:24 AM
I'm not sure if these are bloopers or issues you sci fi wizards can
solve for me. I'm hoping it's the latter, which is why I'm posting
these here. I hope they don't seem too minor to discuss. If so,
please disregard.
1) If Michael can change the appearance of his fingerprints, that
would mean he could alter the appearance of his skin. Why then,
could he not change his entire appearance, at least skin deep? Even
if he couldn't change his bone structure, wouldn't he be able to
change his skin color, eye color, etc.? Didn't Tess say that only
Nasedo has shapeshifting ability but that even Nasedo could only
transform himself within the limitations of his alien bone
structure? That would be the same limitations Michael and the rest
of the Pod Squad would have.
2) This is kind of funny actually and was probably done to add an
element of amusement. Still...why was Nasedo unable to "re-style"
Michael's hair instead of asking him to manually comb it himself. I
mean, if he could change Michael's denim outfit into a suit, why not
slick down the hair, too, with the flick of a finger?

Fraz Member Posts: 72
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2000 02:31 AM
Ok now that I finally posted on this thread a couple of questions to
put out there. In the preview for Destiny episode. We now know the
orbs work to release a message from Max and Izy mom and their
destiny. Is that it for the orbs only containing this message and
then their use is done. If so does the map of all the symbols mean
that they will have to map each clue with the map to the stars and
where in Roswell such as the Library for locations to find each one.
Like the book that Tess withdrawls at the Library the map symbol
matches the book cover does each map symbol match a clue. Do you
understand what I am trying to say.
Next season will they uncover one symbol at a time and unlock a
mystery with each one and a step closer to their destiny.
Just asking if anyone has thought this too. Perhaps this was already
discussed on another scifi thread.
Fraz

Roswellite Member Posts: 80
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-10-2000 07:31 AM
I wish all the people posting to this thread could get together in
one room and just go crazy with this stuff! It would also be nice to
have Jason Katims and Jonathan Frakes there too - they would
probably love to read these threads!
I rewatched White Room last night and have to add a couple of
things..
Pierce as alien: He says to Max (after threatening to hurt Liz) that
"see, you do have feelings, just like us" so for now, I'm assuming
that Pierce is human - just cold hearted and with a bad haircut. I
mean he says he's trying to save the human race from aliens, yet he
would kill humans in the process? I think he was bluffing about Liz.
Could anyone hear what Pierce said to Max about where the alien
powers came from? I couldn't make it out. It was after Max pinned
him to the wall and then felt weak and started to lean on Pierce to
stand. What does Pierce know from studying the records of Nasedo's
capture/tests and what DID happen to the other "live" alien. They
left this one open-ended.
Alien/human powers: I too question the fact that highly advance
human powers include changing molecular structures. Humans turning
into magicians???? The other powers are believable - telekinesis
(Michael), ESP or telephathy(Tess and Isabel). I hope they keep a
limit on how often they use their powers next season. If they are
start using their powers everyweek it going to get stupid. Just
hoping this show doesn't turn into another Charmed or Superfriends!
And why does it seem that people like us are drawn to certain
shows/movies. Mike just said he is a Star Wars nut (as probably most
of us are) and he also watched Beauty and the Beast -- which I was
completed obsessed by myself. How about Lois and Clark, X-files,
Buffy/Angel? Is it more than just fascination with Sci-fi? Is
human/non-human love so fascinating? Why have these lovers struck
such a cord with us - why don't other couples on tv have the same
effect?

Elliott Member Posts: 850
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 07:33 AM
RemyS, LSS, re Max the 'Sleeping Dragon': Since at least 'Blind
Date,' we have been seeing Max's extreme control over his behavior
and emotions slowly crumble. And that episode also revealed him as
potentially dangerous (as well as sexually alluring). Remember Liz's
fantasy that Max was waiting for her outside her window as she
dressed for her date? The initial look on Max's face was eerie and
enigmatic -- He only broke into a smile later. But the first
impression was that this alien might have malignant intent. Very
interesting as a projection of Liz's desires/fears. And later while
drunk with Kyle, Max's face suddenly splits open to reveal a most
alarming canine smile. It reminded me of a wolf and suggested a real
potential for danger -- this Max might bite (oh, if only!) When he
slammed Pierce against the wall, I believe this was after Pierce's
callous threats to kill Liz (reminding us that he is very like
Nasedo in his indifference to the poor girl) and Max has always been
most motivated by his concern for others. But yeah, I think the
suggestion that Max is capable of great violence and great power is
very much there and is completely intentional.
And I LOVE the idea that Tess is even worse than I could have
possibly imagined. But I'm not sure I buy the idea that she's the
real brains in this twosome. Even when they're alone, 'Harding'
seems to have all the real knowledge about what is going on.
And re the sparks flying from the parking meters in 'Blind Date':
When I was a kid I seem to remember toys that had metal gears which
when moved quickly, struck sparks, either through friction or static
electricity (I'm sure these have since been banned as unsafe). Might
Max not have spun the workings inside the meters so rapidly that
something similar happened? As to the lamp post and car alarm . . .
well, Max is in love. And he is very, very powerful. That's enough
for me.

wisters Member Posts: 252
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 07:36 AM
OK, I have only posted on the scifi thread a few times, mostly
because by the time I have a chance to share a few ideas they have
already been stated (more eloquently than I would post to be sure).
However, after skimming through this thoughtful thread I would like
to chime in with a few thoughts.
Disclaimer: some of my ideas are extentions of things posted and
credit is due to these original posters. If I share an idea that has
already been stated, I apologize and am not trying to take any
credit for someone else's ideas. Finally, if I ramble please forgive
me for I am at work and this may be a bit rushed.
1) The dreamgirl inside is doing a happy dance. I have new reason to
believe that the Tess/Max destiny is not so predetermined. Firstly,
we now have confirmation that Tess was controlling Max's visions.
Thus Max's "connection" to Tess is largely manipulated and
artificial. This raises the question, "Why would Tess need to create
these visions if there was a "bond" between herself and Max?"
Answer: she wouldn't. Another dreamgirl smile for something that
happened. Did you all notice that when Pierce was giving the virtual
images to Max Tess was connviently left out. Small point, but
significant nontheless. Does he know (or the writers) know a reason
why Tess would be left out? Since he is attempting to emotionally
break Max it is interesting that he does not consider Tess to be
someone that would have an emotional impact on him. Secondly, I
believe the "connection" that Tess so desperatelly wants to believe
exists between herself and Max isn't there. When she states that it
isn't Max on the gurny "she would feel it". I think that is just her
wanting to believe that she would know if it were Max. I say this
because when Is connects with Max and says that he is so afraid and
then again when she trys to connect and can't get through (seeing
only blinding white light---electroshock there maybe) Tess feels
none of this. I don't buy it!
2) Tess herself. As much as I would like to believe that Tess gave
the visions of their "birth" to the squad, I don't think that this
is the case. All of her visions thus far have invovled one person
seeing the image for a short period. I don't think that we have any
evidence that she is capable of giving a vision to a group of people
at the same time. Plus that "memory" just doesn't seem to fit with
the visions that we know she has given, IMO.
2 cont.) Regarding Tess herself. Someone earlier (giving credit
here) brought up the dynamic between Tess and Nesado. This is
difficult to decipher for various reasons. One, either Miss
DeRavin's acting skills are not up to those of the rest of the cast
or her character is seriously flawed. Still not sure on this point,
trying to give her the benefit of a doubt. If what we are seeing is
what we are supposed to be seeing then there are a whole slew of
questions to be considered. Such as Tess's lack of emotional
response to the crisis at hand. Calm and controlled is one thing but
an emtional zombie is another. Do we attribute this to the fact that
she has essentially been raised by an alien lacking in, even
ridiculing, human emotions? If this is the case, it would offer a
possible explaination for Tess's consuming need to connect to squad
and specifcally Max. As a hybrid she would have the same emotional
needs as the others. Max and Is have had an emtionally enriched
childhood while we have seen the damage Michael has suffered due to
his emotional abusive upbringing. At the same time he has had the
others for emotional support and Tess has had nothing. Victims of
emotional abuse (lack of emotional stimulus is a form of abuse!)
often create elaborate fantasy worlds in which their perceptions of
reality are warped or even incongurious with actual events. They
(Tess) will create elaborate structures and fixations to maintain
their reality.
This brings me to the box of pictures of Max that we saw in TLV.
That had bothered me for a long time. Why just Max? At first I was
thinking that Nesado had been responsible for the box of pictures
because he was the authority figure of the pair. But if we look
closer at this dynamic this supposed Father-Daughter scenior may not
be quite accurate. Suppose for a moment that Tess is the authority.
The role would then be that of a child princess/guardian dynamic.
Nesado has information/history but he is ultimately subserviant to
Tess. This would offer an explaination for the pictures. Perhaps
Tess, using the idea that she and Max were engineered to be mates,
has created an elaborate fantasy of a deep seated connection, thus
her need and justification of gaining all the information on Max
that she could. It wouldn't be an invasion of privacy if they were
meant to be. This connection may have even been the original design,
but with the saving of Liz it is now changed and Tess is not
ready/able to comprehend this. Of the Michael/Is connection, yes
they are connected, and perhaps were meant to be paired, but again
it is not set in stone. Long live free will! The dreams may be a
type of sexual awakening but they are not all consuming. Sex and
emotional attachment are not the same thing and even the type of
emotional bonds people share vary greatly. As an example we are very
limited in our use of the word love. Many other languages have many
words for the various types of love that humans can experience.
Agpae, or unconditional love, which is what I think Michael and Is
share is not the same as (I forget the exact word) a passionate love.
Another reason I believe that Tess is the authority is what appeared
to be the raw jealousy she displayed when she confronted Nesado
after he had left her alone for so long. His reply was "I have four
of you to take care of now". She acted like a spoiled petulant child
used to being the center of attention. Finally we simply do not have
enough information to determine exactly what their interactions have
been and thus what influence it has on the current relationships.
Hopefully the writers will explore this further.
The above are my major reactions to WR, now I have a few other
thoughts. The science of White Room.....We have to allow for the
fact that this is a TV show. Creative Liscence and all of that, but
the science is soft at best. Medical tests? Do we assume that there
were a battery of tests run and we haven't been given the results?
Was there enough time for such things? A picture of his blood cells?
Come on! There are literally hundreds of blood tests that could be
run. X-rays? What about MRI's, CAT scans, PET scans, EEG's, Tissue
samples, Ultra sounds.......
All human except for the blood cells. Huge blooper here? The picture
of the blood cells looked exactly the same as the cheek cells that
Liz took from Max's pencil in the pilot. Blood cells and epidermal
cells being identical, nope, no way, not gonna happen. do we
attribute this to "creative Liscence" or is there enough thought
being put into this by the writers to be leading us somewhere.
MMI (and even T) being hybrids would mean human DNA (the actual
building blocks of the strands of DNA are actually very simple
structures, just a lot of them, coding for so many things) and the
idea of "evolved" development wouldn't actually change them all that
much--even thousands of years worth, so are the cells different
because there is an alien addition? Is the alien portion actually
physical at all or is more along the idea of metaphysical? A type of
shared energy or conscience? (idea from the books, I must admit) One
thing here, going back to the cells, when I first saw them in the
pilot I was struck with this idea...The cells were communicating
with each other, just the way they were moving and their appearance.
I am not sure what that might imply, but I do think that it was
worth noting.
Well I have certainly rambled quite a bit. And I guess I should do
my job, since I am at work and all. Actually I am about to go donate
blood. Ironic?!?
OK, any feed back on my ramblings would be greatly appreciated. Hope
I haven't shown my ignorance too much here
Wisty
[This message has been edited by wisters (edited 05-10-2000).]

sdseddie Member Posts: 68
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2000 07:40 AM
aliens and humans both lie. maybe the original akiens (xf) were
originally from earth or visited here millions of yrs ago--thus why
the pod-kids adapted well and already born Nacedo didn't. eddie

Jugular Member Posts: 169
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 08:46 AM
Mike said "This gets back to the idea that the aliens experience
time differently. Evolution can't be projected into the future
without knowledge of the future. If the Pod Squad are supposed to be
what humans will be in the future, this suggests that the aliens
know, on some level, what that future is."
Several posters here have speculated about the Pod Squad (and
possibly now Liz since many think she's physically changed) being
able to predict the future. From the WR, we now know that their
abilities are advanced superhuman powers that normal humans have but
MMIT are better able to tap into.
Could Tess and Nasedo be from the future? Theories of time travel
have been floating around for ages and I think the possibility isn't
out of the question. Could some catastophic war or something worse
(thinking meteor here) here on earth caused superhumans (or aliens
currently populating the earth) to travel back through time to plant
embyros for repopulation purposes? Maybe the parents of our beloved
trio is from the future as well. This would explain their human
body/weird blood makeup and settle reasons why Tess and Nasedo need
to protect them.
As to why Nasedo is completely different (pure alien, which Tess may
be as well), I'm not sure.

Jugular Member Posts: 169
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 09:18 AM
One other thing about this time travel theory I talked about
above... this is regarding the crash in 1947. The "spaceship" that
crashed could indeed be the time travel vehicle from the future,
containing Nasedo and the other alien (maybe Tess).
[This message has been edited by Jugular (edited 05-10-2000).]

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 09:39 AM
quote:
Originally posted by wisters:
Did you all notice that when Pierce was giving the virtual images
to Max that Tess was connviently left out. Small point, but
significant nontheless. Does he know (or the writers) know a
reason why Tess would be left out?
* * *
Victims of emotional abuse (lack of emotional stimulus is a form
of abuse!) often create elaborate fantasy worlds in which their
perceptions of reality are warped or even incongurious with actual
events. They (Tess) will create elaborate structures and fixations
to maintain their reality.
* * *
All human except for the blood cells. Huge blooper here? The
picture of the blood cells looked exactly the same as the cheek
cells that Liz took from Max's pencil in the pilot.
Hi wisters, just wanted to respond to/comment on a couple of your
points. W/respect to the virtual reality machine, I kind of assumed
they were based on existing pictures--Max hasn't actually spent a
lot of time around Tess. Any watching, whether electronic or by
agents, probably wouldn't have led Pierce to think Tess was
important to Max. I don't think there were any pictures of Maria or
Alex either--two more characters Max hasn't spent much time with one
on one. Further, I don't know if Pierce had other agents close by
after Topolsky left the first time, but Tess wasn't in the picture,
yet at the end of BB.
I really like the fantasy world concept, but as LSS has said about
similar "Tess is evil/making everything up points"--I like it TOO
much. As a fan of the M/L relationship, it's very enticing. As a sci
fi fan, however, it would be a little too pat & reduce (for me) the
social commentary subtext.
The cheek cells point that you mention (& Tepp alluded to earlier in
the "and skin cells?" parenthetical) bugged me, too. I also thought
that Isabel, at least, could "scan" given the way she read
Atherton's book. I thought MM&I all could because of the way she
teased Max for reading the slow way &, later, Michael's
demonstration of memorization skills in 285S.
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 05-10-2000).]

Jugular Member Posts: 169
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 09:50 AM
JanetMG: Maria and Alex were included in the virtual visions. They
were right after Isabelle but before Liz. I think Pierce said
"Friendship" then clicked for their image to appear (which was of
Maria singing and Alex playing the guitar in "Blind Date").

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 10:39 AM
You're right, Jugular--I remember that now that you mention it (I
really must rewatch the ep.). However, the unit would have known
about those friendships through Topolsky.

wisters Member Posts: 252
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 11:15 AM
Hi JanetMG.
Just a couple of quick things here. I hope that when I said I think
Tess may be living in a bit of a fantasy that I didn't imply that
everything that she shown or told the squad is a lie. Actually, what
I was trying to say is that I think she has taken grains of truth
and expanded them to fit her needs and desires. I think that she
believes them to be true and that they are in fact based on some
truths. It is just the degree to which the pairing off is fated and
the strength/nature of the bond between her and Max and her and the
others as well that I am questioning. Being emotionally deprived she
might naturally believe (need) the connection between herself and
the others to be far greater than it actually is.
Regarding the virtual images, We don't actually know how long the
FBI was been watching them. We do know that they were making
observations at least since SH and thus one might think that they
could know about the kiss shared between Max and Tess and the
interactions between the squad and Tess.
Another small discord here, no images of his parents?
Regarding the scanning, I never got the impression that Is actually
read Amoung Us. It seemed to me that she was just flipping through
it in a bored manner. Also, I don't seem to recall the comment about
Max reading the slow way, though I may have certaily missed this.
But I do believe that our trio is extremely intelligent. Just
because a person is smart it certainly doesn't mean that they will
be a stellar student. Believe me, this is true, speaking from years
of experience as a teacher. There is actually research to suggest
that truly gifted persons often will struggle in an acedemic setting
and may even appear less intelligent then they are. Our squad is
likely quite intelligent and I in no way would question the fact
that they are using the capicity of their brains to a greater extent
due to their "enigineering".
UGH, I am very busy at work and have to stop here though I know that
I missed a few things....
Wisty

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 11:18 AM
wisters wrote:
"But if we look closer at this dynamic this supposed Father-Daughter
scenior may not be quite accurate. Suppose for a moment that Tess is
the authority. The role would then be that of a child
princess/guardian dynamic.
Nesado has information/history but he is ultimately subserviant to
Tess."
Wisters--you may be on to something here. It is clear that Nesdeo
thinks he is the protector of the teens. And it is clear that he is
willing to functon (in some ways) as a mentor/father figure. But
there does seem to be a very odd element in the N/T relationship
that goes somewhat beyond interspecies communication problems. Does
the power Tess display at times concerning Nesedo stem from her
higher status, or simply from feeling that as a powerful young woman
she has sway over the older male figure?
And I am also uncomfortable with the knowledge she displays of the
installation. Which leaves us with some unanswered plot questions
concerning aliens:
1) Where and who is that fourth alien to which Pierce referred?
2) Who was the alien who originally buried the orb? Was it Nesedo or
someone else?
3) Where did the second orb that Pierce had come from? How did he
know that they worked together, but did not know HOW they worked? If
they tortured an alien to find out the function of the orb--couldn't
have gotten the instructions along with that information?
4) We've seen that Tess can project images...can she also control
motor skills? Max reported (of the rain scene) that someone was
controlling him--and his protests as he is drawn to Tess might
confirm a struggle. Is Max simply excusing his actions--or do we
have something else going on here? And if Tess can do that, why
settle simply for images in the installation (unless there is a
distance/proximity factor here that prohibits it).
5) Is the fear Pierce voices (alien colonization) a left over from
the 50s-60s UFO paranoia? Or is there some basis for this fear to
which we have not yet been made privy? Remember Max's throw away
line to Liz as he enters the cafe kitchen in SH? A cliche? Or the
foreshadowing of a later theme?
BTW when Piere asks Max about the identity of his "home" planet--Max
responds by saying "earth". On the one hand this is deception--but
on the other and, it may be truer than anyone realizes.
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-10-2000).]

Noah Junior Member Posts: 7
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:17 PM
Has anyone considered from all appearances that Nasedos motives are
likely very personal. He is clearly indifferent to humans and at
best tolerating of the pod squad and yes protective...but is this
only a means to his desired end? Is he desperate to return to his
planet and is unable to do so without the skills or abilities of the
now grown aliens? Is his desire to return home include a motive of
revenge for being sent to earth? It begs the question what do our
aliens have that this guy wants?

Elliott Member Posts: 850
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:31 PM
LSS: I was very moved when Max named his planet of origin as
'Earth.' I don't think he was being duplicitous. Jason Behr's almost
mournful line reading suggested to me that he was declaring his
commitment as a free-thinking 'human' to throw in his lot with Earth
and Earthlings. There may have been an element of whistling in the
dark here for Max. But there is also a terrible irony in the fact
that he was being interrogated and tortured for an alien nature he
has largely repudiated. At least up until now.

Rebecca Member Posts: 287
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 12:31 PM
Hi Elliott.
Regarding the accelerated speed as Max gets up and grabs Pierce:
There were 3 instances like that in WR. The afore mentioned scene,
African American Nasedo getting over to Pierce once Max and Micheal
depart the WR, and Pierce getting up and out of the WR once Nasedo
has been shot. Either this was just a film editing effect to
heighten the intensity of the moment, and/or to buy a few more
seconds of story time for the episode, or this is something that the
audiance is actually to perceive as having occurred in the story. If
it is to be perceived as an "ability", then it's an ability that
Agent Pierce has too. I'm not really sure how this "effect" was
intended by the writers.
[This message has been edited by Rebecca (edited 05-10-2000).]

Noah Junior Member Posts: 7
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:34 PM
Has anyone considered that by Nasedos appearance of indifference to
others - including the pod squad (though he is determined to protect
them) that he is likely motivated by strictly personal reasons. Is
he desperate to return to his home planet and requires the skills of
the our now grown aliens to do this? Does he have a motive of
revenge for being sent on this mission gone wrong? Whatever the
reason, it seems logical by his behavior he has a personal agenda
and the well being of the pod squad or their alien/human race -
unless it directly benefits him, is not likely the priority.

Rebecca Member Posts: 287
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 12:36 PM
Hi Elliott.
Regarding the accelerated speed as Max gets up and grabs Pierce:
There were 3 instances like that in WR. The afore mentioned scene,
Afican American Nasedo getting over to Pierce once Max and Micheal
depart the WR, and Pierce getting up and out of the WR once Nasedo
has been shot. Either this was just a film editing effect to
heighten the intensity of the moment, and/or to buy a few more
seconds of story time for the episode, or this is something that the
audiance is actually to perceive as having occurred in the story. If
it is to be perceived as an "ability", then it's an ability that
Agent Pierce has too. I'm not really sure how this "effect" was
intended by the writers.

Noah Junior Member Posts: 7
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:39 PM
Has anyone considered that by Nasedos appearance of indifference to
others - including the pod squad (though he is determined to protect
them) that he is likely motivated by strictly personal reasons. Is
he desperate to return to his home planet and requires the skills of
the our now grown aliens to do this? Does he have a motive of
revenge for being sent on this mission gone wrong? Whatever the
reason, it seems logical by his behavior he has a personal agenda
and the well being of the pod squad or their alien/human race -
unless it directly benefits him, is not likely the priority.

Rebecca Member Posts: 287
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 12:40 PM
Hi Elliott.
Regarding the accelerated speed as Max gets up and grabs Pierce:
There were 3 instances like that in WR. The afore mentioned scene,
Afican American Nasedo getting over to Pierce once Max and Micheal
depart the WR, and Pierce getting up and out of the WR once Nasedo
has been shot. Either this was just a film editing effect to
heighten the intensity of the moment, and/or to buy a few more
seconds of story time for the episode, or this is something that the
audiance is actually to perceive as having occurred in the story. If
it is to be perceived as an "ability", then it's an ability that
Agent Pierce has too. I'm not really sure how this "effect" was
intended by the writers.

Elliott Member Posts: 850
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:41 PM
Sorry about this repeat post. Didn't realize it took the first time.
[This message has been edited by Elliott (edited 05-10-2000).]

Rebecca Member Posts: 287
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 12:45 PM
Hi Elliott.
Regarding the accelerated speed as Max gets up and grabs Pierce:
There were 3 instances like that in WR. The afore mentioned scene,
Afican American Nasedo getting over to Pierce once Max and Micheal
depart the WR, and Pierce getting up and out of the WR once Nasedo
has been shot. Either this was just a film editing effect to
heighten the intensity of the moment, and/or to buy a few more
seconds of story time for the episode, or this is something that the
audiance is actually to perceive as having occurred in the story. If
it is to be perceived as an "ability", then it's an ability that
Agent Pierce has too. I'm not really sure how this "effect" was
intended by the writers.

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:49 PM
well--just trying to get those posts lost in the Roswell 1 triangle
to appear.
LSS

mattia Member Posts: 738
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 12:58 PM
as for the "burst" of energy max has when grabbing pierce, I see it
as just that, a quick energy boost. No matter how weak, max has
intense rage for this person, who is threatening everything he
loves. All that emotion builds up and max is able to explode for a
second and grab him, then the energy dissipates, and max is left
weak and holding onto pierce for support. I did not think that was
strange at all.
I did think they should have included parents in the flashback.
LSS: did someone give ya the 411 on quoting?

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 01:22 PM
Elliot:
When I said "deception" I didn't mean it as a harsh statement. If I
remember correctly, this question is a one of a string that Max
answers as if he were just a human teenager.
And yes--I think that you are right. He really means this on one
level. And I suppose that that is part of the problem (?) that this
storyline is addressing. What will it mean for Max when he finally
realizes the implications of his alien heritage? He somehow has to
deal with this--again...basic Therapy 101. Max, by his very physical
nature, will always be a part of two worlds. This fact is a terrific
metaphor for future episode foci. Indeed the M/L relationship is a
microcosm of this issue.
Interestingly in that White Room we see humanity at its height
(Max's self-sacrifice to save Liz and his friends) and at its lowest
ebb (the inhuman Pierce).
Emotions and feelings--strengths or weaknesses? Nimroy must be
chuckling if he ever watches Roswell!
LSS

RoswellJunkie Junior Member Posts: 10
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-10-2000 02:31 PM
Hello all...
new to the scifi aspects, so bear with me if I sound naive. Thanks
I have a very strong feeling that Tess is not who she says she is.
The dynamic between her and Nasedo has more aspects than we have
been introduced to. And I also find interesting the possibility of
the child princess/protector. And quite frankly she seems to be more
of a spoiled Bratt than anything else.
When I think of all the possibilities, one thing that comes to mind
is: If our pod squad has come to earth from another planet (along
with Nasedo and others) what is to say that another species hasn't
been here or is here now? I think that will be an interesting twist
in future eppys and that the possibility that Pierce is one of the
"other aliens" out there is a viable one.

RemyS Member Posts: 166
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2000 03:18 PM
***Elliott, I would like to comment on two things you said.
#1 I too was very moved when Max declared his planet as earth. I
felt that this was not just to hide his true origins, but to
emphasize that to him earth is home. Even though throughout the
season he has joined Michael's crusade for finding their "home", it
was almost as though his heart wasn't really in it. He would like
nothing better than to live out his life here on earth with the girl
he loves. My heart breaks for him as each new episode brings him
closer to what for him (and me) will be pure agony.
#2 Actually, when Max threw Pierce against the wall, it was right
before Pierce showed him the pictures of Liz, so that was not the
immediate cause of his anger. I'm sure it was an underlying motive,
as he knows Pierce is after all of them. (the list Topolsky speaks
of) I think that at that point, though, Max has had enough. He has
been tortured, drugged, interrogated, and when he discovers that he
is no longer bound, he takes the opportunity to attempt his escape,
and possibly kill Pierce in the process. (I still say that if looks
could kill, Pierce would be dead.) Survival, kill or be killed,
I think were his motives at that instance.
May I just add that when Pierce showed Max a picture of Liz "dead",
Max' gut-wretching howl gave me chills. His cry truly came from the
heart, and I know mine stopped for a split second. I still can't get
over how much that cry of agony and pain affected me.

MEP Member Posts: 62
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-10-2000 03:46 PM
Mike Zeares: you're probably right. Perhaps the problem is that I am
not a product of American pop-culture (I grew up in Europe and never
really watched TV or a lot of Hollywood movies until my early
twenties) and the clich�s which strike a chord within me are
somewhat different. Then there's the fact that I am an inveterate
sceptic and, consequently, somewhat intolerant about anything to do
with the paranormal (unless it's EXTRAORDINARILY well written) -
maybe that's not a good thing, but I can't help it. Now, I don't
have a problem with "Star Wars" or "Buffy"'s mythology, no matter
how outlandish it gets (it's fantasy and needn't be taken
seriously), but I can't get into shows like "The X-files", for
example - they just strike me as silly (just my personal, subjective
opinion).
If "Roswell" had really been "X-file"-ish from the start, I probably
wouldn't be watching it. But it wasn't - despite its basic premise
(and the holes in the plot), there was a lovely realism about it in
the early episodes and I completely fell for that. So it's difficult
for me to adjust now. I never really minded the CD playing, or the
parking meters, or even the "blood cells" X-ray - those are just
minor annoyances. But when it comes to fundamental aspects of the
mythology of the show, they have a bearing on its overall tone and
the new one (as it started to emerge in WR) is just not something
I'm comfortable with.
It's not at all that I'm against the SF angle, I agree that it can
be used very effectively to explore universal themes. I'm just not
sure that the TYPE of SF they seem to be going for works with the
"Roswell" that I grew to love. At least, I'm not sure it'll work for
ME (we've already established that I'm weird and intolerant, right?)
- I can buy into their powers as long as they're part of their alien
heritage, I don't know if I can buy them as potentially inherent in
humans. But that's my problem, I guess.
Hopefully, I'm just overreacting - whoever said that we owe the
writers the benefit of the doubt is right. Maybe they'll slow down
and go back to basics next season.
Sniglet: good point, unless shape-shifting is NOT just skin-deep.
Nasedo alters his stature (how he does that without also changing
his skeleton, I'll never understand), his voice (which implies
physical changes in his vocal tract), his entire form. So, how deep
ARE the changes? Do they involve cellular structure, mutation even?
If not, how DOES he duplicate the form without the building blocks?
What effect, if any, does this have on his psyche? Do his sensory
perceptions, reflexes, etc. differ when he is in his own body? We
have no real answers at this point and I'm not sure we ever will.
Maybe someone here who knows more about biology than I can clarify
some of these issues. Or, if this was discussed before on the SF
threads, maybe someone can direct me to the right one (assuming it's
still around)?
[This message has been edited by MEP (edited 05-10-2000).]
[This message has been edited by MEP (edited 05-10-2000).]

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 05:30 PM
Oh Where, Oh Where have the
posts since 12:40 gone?
Bumping to see if I can nudge or shove them into
existence...gosh--where is Max and his powers when you need him?
LSS

Leneba Member Posts: 210
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 06:39 PM
LSS,
You brought up an interesting point about Max naming earth as his
home planet. This scene struck a chord in me as well. What I wonder
is if we can even consider our Podsters true aliens? If they are
hybrids and share most of their genetic material with humans, then
it is unclear. I think Max was telling Pierce the truth after all.

Aeneas Junior Member Posts: 6
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2000 06:49 PM
Couldn't resist adding my $0.02.
But with regards to the question as to whether the aliens crashed on
arrival, etc. I have to refer to a quote from my other favorite
show.
"They've been here for a Very long time."

Vicki Junior Member Posts: 4
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-10-2000 06:52 PM
Mike & LSS:
Atomic manipulation is already possible in the lab. I remember from
my physics class that one of the research labs accidentally created
a small amount of gold from some other metals when they were
bombarding something with electrons. At the atomic level all
elements are made of just two things electrons and protons. I
remember from chemistry if you could atomically squash two silver
atoms together they would make one atom of gold with no let over
pieces. Left over pieces = raliation. The human brain makes small
amounts of electricity. Blood contains iron. Iron + Electricity =
Magnets. And magnets can control electrons. Therefore it is
theoretically possible for the human mind to manipulate matter on
some level.
On those parking meters, in the E = mc2 vein, it would only take a
few molecules of matter to make a really big flash.

RemyS Member Posts: 166
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2000 07:21 PM
***BTW, Elliott, Happy Birthday Week (May 13th)! I know it's early,
but you may not be lurking or posting on your special day. Hope you
celebrate it in style.

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-10-2000 08:02 PM
Hi, wisters--I didn't read your post as implying that everything
Tess has shown or told the Pod Squad is a lie. I'm very sorry if my
shorthand reference to arguments that weaken Tess's "claim" or
"connection" to Max via biology or pre-destination gives that
impression. The fantasy life theory really is a neat theory & it
would get into another issue I love�the nature of truth & its
relationship to perception.
Also, I agree that the FBI could have been watching & know about
Tess, but I think it�s more plausible that they don�t know or know
enough to realize she wouldn�t provoke much of an positive emotional
reaction. I don�t think Max has talked about having an emotional
attachment (the "human" side Pierce was going for) with Tess. They
could have seen the kiss (outdoors during a storm, across from the
Crashdown, physical surveillance could have picked it up, but there
probably wasn�t a camera), but if they eavesdropped on any Max�s
conversations w/the others about it, they�d know that he wasn�t
Tess� biggest fan despite the kiss. So I don�t read much into Tess�
absence from the virtual reality machine�it definitely could mean
something, but it seems unlikely to me. (Having rewatched WR
tonight, I�m not sure what FBI is supposed to have used as a basis
for the VR stuff. With the exception of the dead Liz image, it
looked like clips from previous shows, not photographs, and not
surveillance camera shots. What do people use as the starting block
for computer generated images?)
I haven�t rewatched it, but if memory serves I can see how Isabel
could have just been flipping the pages of Atherton�s book & not
actually reading it. And, I think her comment to Max could have
simply been sarcasm directed at his choice of reading material (his
reply was "guilty pleasure." Maybe I just interpreted it incorrectly
because it�s a power I�d love to have. Did anyone else think she was
doing an advanced form of speed reading?
Mike & Roswellite�Just want to add my vote for Beauty & the Beast.
I�ve got the movie and the soundtrack, but haven�t seen the musical.
I�ve heard its good, too.
New Topic�
Is anyone else confused or curious about Isabel�s dreamwalking
ability w/respect to Max? Before she goes in the first time, she
says, "Let me in, Max. Let me in." When she gets in, she seems to be
in his reality, up to a point�same room, same drugged condition, but
not shackled to the wall. What�s interesting to me, is that when she
refuses to leave Max, some of the white coats come and drag her off
him. She then wakes up. Did Max "trigger" the white coats to get her
to leave? In the 1st trip, they saw & reacted in the "waking dream",
but not in reality; there was no indication that the whitecoats
actually had any conscious involvement with dragging her off. (They
were present in the 3rd & last "waking dream," but there wasn�t any
indication that the whitecoats saw or reacted to her in any way
either in the dream or in reality). How did this connect to Max�s
reality--were they coming back in? Did he manipulate that part of
his reality to sever the connection w/Is or did his fear sever it
without any conscious thought? Later, in the base, Isabel says that
he "won�t let her in." Does he have some kind of shielding ability?
(If developed, can it be used against Tess� fantasies and/or
compulsions? I know--wishful thinking.) Or was it just a natural
wall because of the trauma Is talked about (& we knew he was going
through)? It reminds me of when he kept information from her (re
being followed in 285S) because he didn�t want her to worry. Was he
trying to spare her from his nightmare? The thing is, if it was some
manifestation (conscious or unconscious) of his power, it shouldn�t
have been able to work if Pierce�s drugs did what Pierce said they
do.

shapeshifter Junior Member Posts: 24
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-10-2000 08:38 PM
Re:LSS posted 05-10-2000 11:18 AM
"1) Where and who is that fourth alien to which Pierce referred?"
I understood it that 2 aliens died in the crash, 1 died in the White
Room, and 1 escaped (Nasedo).
And Re: JanetMG--Isabel in Max's mind:
Initially she felt his fear. His fear would perhaps manifest as the
perpetrators of the fear dragging away his last best hope. This fear
of his would be her experience in his "dream" just as she kissed
Alex in his dream in an earlier (and kinder, gentler) episode.

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-10-2000 09:00 PM
I have to say that my reaction to Tess's outburst towards Nasedo
when he revealed himself in the morgue was different than what so
many of you perceived. I didn't take it as any indication that she
had authority over him, and on further reflection it seems more like
the response of Wister's "spoiled, petulant child." Earlier, Tess
had told the others that Nasedo had never left her alone so long,
and she just seemed miffed when he reappeared. Nasedo makes no
apology and, as in the past, shows no deference to her. He chides
her there in the morgue for undertaking the rescue mission without
him -- "you should have known better" -- and in the cave scene in
MttM he sharply admonishes her for bringing the others there while
they are being watched.
If Tess is guiding Nasedo's actions, she seems to know very little
about him. She often pleads ignorance of Nasedo's plans as well as
the limits of his abilities, telling Max that Nasedo has never let
her get close to him or see him in his natural state. She truly
appears to have learned about Nasedo's many killings from Max (she
more or less acknowledges this when she and Nasedo are alone and she
has no reason to lie), and just as she claims she may never have
seen the kind of handprint that's on the dead agent's chest (recall
that Max also seemed shocked when Liz showed him her mark).
Still, I think all this says more about Tess and Nasedo's
personalities and attitudes than it does about their formal
relationship. A lot of Tess's behavior can be described as immature
and even childish. Her demonstration of her abilities for Isabel was
unnecessary and seemed little more than showing off (although I
think that scene served several purposes, one of which I've already
suggested). Her boast that she along with Michael and Isabel had the
resources to free Max proved to be empty, and in retrospect her
claim that the humans were liabilities seems at least partially
self-serving. Once inside the secret base, she is able to offer a
couple of useful warnings (one of which seemed very suspicious), but
she had no more of a master plan than Michael or Isabel. Indeed,
once they're on site she is the most passive of the three and offers
no positive suggestions. As I said, her claim to be attuned to Max's
fate failed to impress Michael and Isabel. When Nasedo arrives, Tess
defers to him and expresses total confidence in his ability to
create and execute a workable attack. She had earlier boasted "I
know what I can do," but without guidance and assistance that turns
out to be very little indeed.
Nevertheless, I think it's quite possible that Tess is a kind of
princess and Nasedo a bodyguard who's also been functioning as a
kind of "regent" and tutor while she develops. But as I've said many
times, these two characters are so burdened with ambiguity and
inconsistency as to make any conclusions all but impossible.
Frankly, I think it's time for the writers to stop with the false
leads, the contradictory behavior, and the mystery for mystery's
sake and pick a direction and stick with it.

mattia Member Posts: 738
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 09:08 PM
here is something I know was brought up at one time, just wondered
if anyone cared to expand:
ok, if the 4 aliens are meant to be, and produce offspring, what
about that offspring? wouldn't they have a "destiny" too? THey would
need to pair up with other alien offspring and so on...... how can
it be known how many and what sex the offspring will be? Because, if
the original four's children have no destiny and can pair up with
whomever, then what does it matter if M-T and M-I listen to their
destiny or not????

Little Willow Member Posts: 468
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 09:09 PM
The shots were amazing, and the sequence set to music furthermore
showed us things from Max's perspective. Good of them to further
point out the humanity of Max - literally, with the structure of his
body, and figuratively, use of emoting. They weren't counting on
that side scientifically or personally, so it was grand to see that
rather than the typical cut-out descript of aliens.

Little Willow Member Posts: 468
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 09:15 PM
The shots were amazing, and the sequence set to music furthermore
showed us things from Max's perspective. Good of them to further
point out the humanity of Max - literally, with the structure of his
body, and figuratively, use of emoting. They weren't counting on
that side scientifically or personally, so it was grand to see that
rather than the typical cut-out descript of aliens.

Little Willow Member Posts: 468
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 09:30 PM
The shots were amazing, and the sequence set to music furthermore
showed us things from Max's perspective. Good of them to further
point out the humanity of Max - literally, with the structure of his
body, and figuratively, use of emoting. They weren't counting on
that side scientifically or personally, so it was grand to see that
rather than the typical cut-out descript of aliens.

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-10-2000 10:12 PM
Shapeshifter:
About the 4th alien--where do you find out that he/she died? After
the show I immediately raised this question and one of the people
with me said--oh that alien is dead. What I queried that, they said
in the book it said he died. When I rewatched the episode I did not
pick up a reference to his death. Sooooo--is your assumption that
the 4th alien died based on what you read in the book or saw in that
episode? If it is in the episode could you tell me where?
BTW--a correction: in an earlier post I raised the issue of the
orb--in rewatching the eppy it is clear that Max told Pierce about
the second orb in exchange for Liz's safety...I didn't catch that
the first time around.
JanetMG--About dreamwalking...when I was rewatching the eppy
tonight, I noticed Tess' response when she found out that Izzy could
dreamwalk. It was if she had never heard of the gift. It was also
very odd the way she questioned if Max and Michael could do
so--almost as if she were collecting information--it was really
strange. I agree, wouldn't it be nice if they could "shield" from
Tess?
Also...did it ever occur to you that, being raised by Nesedo, Tess
should have been VERY good in all of them? But she certainly isn't
being presented as if she has a lot of powers under her command!
LSS

Bookish Member Posts: 173
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-10-2000 10:56 PM
Tepp, I think your depiction of Nasedo and Tess' characters is right
on the money. The more I watched Tess, the more she seemed to be
almost like a feral child, confessing to a lonely upbringing,
craving a bond with the troika, yet all the while trying to pull
them into her paradigm. Isabel's expression after Tess revealed her
ability to control minds seemed to open the door that the "destiny"
she claims to have with Max is a contrived one.
On another note, I do think that Max was blocking Isabel from
remaining in the room by using the men in the white coats to take
her away. His protectiveness thus far has been primarily directed
toward a)Liz and b)protecting their identity, so it seemed a natural
extension of his character that he would so desperately try to
protect her.
And I echo your sentiments, Tepp, that the writers need to stop
throwing in so many feints. They certainly have managed, however, to
change the show's thrust dramatically within the past month, haven't
they?

shapeshifter Junior Member Posts: 24
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-10-2000 11:14 PM
LSS--Re: Death of 4th alien.
I was basing it on what I thought I heard--I haven't read the books.
I don't have the capability of taping, so I can't replay, but I
thought somebody (either Pierce or Nasedo) discussed the 4 aliens
from the crash of 47. Anyone else catch that?

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-11-2000 12:12 AM
Vikki,
Nice technobabble on the molecular manipulation. Works for me.
"Comic book" science is the best way to go for this show, I think.
Talk fast and don't worry about the details. Now explain Izzy's
"human cd-player." (Hm, bone conducts sound, her molec-manip power
could be used to read the cd...)
Good point on the sparkling parking meters too. I had forgotten
about the E=mc^2 angle. The sparklers could have just been electrons
being stripped off their atoms (which sends photons shooting off
everywhere - that's what an electric spark is, if I recall
correctly). That doesn't help with the street lamp disco ball
effect, but like I said earlier, I don't want to pick that scene
apart too much.
-- Mike, who is too boring to think of a cool screen name. I've been
trying for weeks to no avail.

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-11-2000 12:34 AM
quote:
Originally posted by JanetMG:
Mike & Roswellite�Just want to add my vote for Beauty & the Beast.
I�ve got the movie and the soundtrack, but haven�t seen the
musical. I�ve heard its good, too.
Actually, Roswellite and I were referring to the tv series that was
on back in the late 80's. Or at least, I was. Linda Hamilton was the
star. It was *extremely* romantic.
I've also noticed the tendency of people who like sci-fi stuff
(especially works that have strong relationships between characters)
to also like romance, particularly gothic romance. In fact, if you
can combine sci-fi/fantasy, gothic horror and romance all in the
same package, so much the better. I guess stuff that is either very
emotional or very creative (or just weird) strikes the same chord
with us. ROSWELL hits several of my buttons: teen angst (real and
metaphorical), romance, suspense, UFO conspiracy nonsense , and
sci-fi. It's not an easy job, juggling all these elements, and if
the writers have stumbled from time to time, they have also achieved
a remarkable fusion, for the most part. I hope they can keep it up,
without to much poking-in of noses by the WB.
-- Mike

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-11-2000 04:02 AM
Mike--I forgot all about that show. The Beast was Vincent & she was
an attorney, right? I remember liking it, but I don't think I
watched it regularly--it was on during my virtually no tv years.
Tepp--I agree that T is not in charge, but her relationship w/N does
strike me as guardian/princess one. Fantasy stories are full young
heros & heroines that know little about their caretakers or parents
at the beginning of the book, e.g., Garion & Polgara. Essentially,
it seems to me that she acts like she is technically or will be in
charge some day. That is, she has the formal authority, but he has
been "in charge" while she grows up and develops her powers. Even if
not some royalty equivalent, she also may have some leverage based
on her role in MMIT's destiny--leverage that's become less effective
now that N has found MM&I, as well. (As Noah mentioned earlier, N
may well have ulterior motives.)
Tepp & LSS--I was similarly unimpressed with Tess' abilities/powers.
Apparently she can "scan," but otherwise the only benefit from her
access to N appears to be some (but not full) knowledge.
Vikki--I like the atomic manipulation theory, too. It works for me.
(I think scientific accuracy is less important to me than it is to
some others, and I haven't actually seen the inside of a science
classroom for a good 10 years.)
shapeshifter & LSS--Pierce mentioned at one point that they had an
alien in captivity for three years, but I don't think he ever said
what happened to that alien. He also said that there were originally
4 captured--2 dead & 2 alive and that 1 escaped (but not where he
escaped). Pierce seemed to assume (but not know) that N was the one
that escaped. N later said that he had escaped from the facility.
The assumption I think they wanted us to make, was that N was the
one that escaped & he escaped from the facility shortly after his
initial capture, ie., he wasn't in captivity for 3 years. I don't
think, however, that they closed off the possibilities that the
"captive alien" escaped (rather than died) also or that N was
actually the captive. (Is this what you were getting at, LSS?)
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 05-11-2000).]

silver.star Member Posts: 53
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-11-2000 06:07 AM
quote:
Originally posted by shapeshifter:
I've heard it said (by scientists?) that we only use a tenth of
our brains, so it wouldn't require physical evolution for humans
to be more advanced with regards to using brain "powers" that were
already there.
This is true! But I am not sure if anyone (Forgive me if I am wrong)
has said anything about physical evolution. But you have to think
about it, one does have to go thru some kind of mental evolution to
get the point of having the capabilities of doing more with their
brain "power". Some (ok, the majority) do not have the
belief/desire/training/control whatever you want to call it to
handle this kind of brain "power" yet. Who knows if mankind will
ever have the mental outlook one needs to pocess this kind of
responsibility.
**I remember reading somewhere (do not remember exactly who wrote
this) that if M/M/I are advanced humans why do they not excel in
school(and again IMO), as of yet they do not know the capabilities,
or limitations of the power they pocess. They may be advanced enough
to do little things but it takes practice as many things do. They
are still young adults figuring things out. ***Does one forget they
were not trying to bring attention to themselves.***
I can see this in the future (if we do not kill ourselves of this
planet first) a new way of living. Having more capabilities with our
brainpower is just one of the gifts that we pocess (now) and
hopefully in the future will be able to use this to our advantage as
human species.

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-11-2000 06:36 AM
Okay--for all of those folk who sent me instructions on
quoting...here goes:
quote:
Originally posted by JanetMG:
The assumption I think they wanted us to make, was that N was the
one that escaped & he escaped from the facility shortly after his
initial capture, ie., he wasn't in captivity for 3 years. I don't
think, however, that they closed off the possibilities that the
"captive alien" escaped (rather than died) also or that N was
actually the captive. (Is this what you were getting at, LSS?)
Yes. I don't even remember this character being in the books let
alone being killed off. The books (1-6 I haven't read 7) had Adam in
captivity, but Milton free (and God only knows where Nick came
from--though I wondered if he could have been the offspring of/or
another podster raised by the stowaway who Milton thought had
died...it would have explained how Nick ended up with the Stone of
Midnight).
If the TV series is going to leave this open then we have the
potential for a alien mole--who mave have "turned" after extensive
brainwashing (damn, 3 yrs in that room--what a horrid thought) and
is working on the FBI's side. Or--if Nesedo escaped after 3 years it
explains all those dead bodies--revenge! This would mean that that
elusive 4th alien is still unaccounted for!
Either this is one of those plotholes that dot Roswell's roadsystem,
or it is intentional. It does seem, however, an odd plot element to
introduce and then just let hang there unless you think you might
have use of it later on!
LSS
[This message has been edited by LSS (edited 05-11-2000).]

homezomy Member Posts: 246
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-11-2000 07:12 AM
quote:
Originally posted by db:
and last thing did the crash in 1947 happen during a landing or a
take-off??? the way the pods were in that cave it looked like they
had been on earth for quite some time so what gives?
I think we are left to guess about when the crash happened in
landing or taking off...with regards to the pods you have to
remember that our teen alien(advanced humans-whatever you want to
call em) had been in these pods right up until 1989 when they came
out of the pods so the pods had been there for quite some
time....over 40 years....
with regards to how much of them is alien well they we're
genetically engineered to be advanced humans..we know that much but
their blood could either be
a. advanced from what normal blood is now
or
b. alien blood used to help speed up the process of construction or
sumthing like that
I think it was mentioned somewhere that Nasedo didn't have any
feelings but he had fear of Peirce didn't he? isn't that a feeling?
fear?
hopefully they'll give season 2 the go ahead so they can answer some
of these questions (keep you fingers crossed guys we find out May
16th)

Heart of Ice Member Posts: 260
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-11-2000 07:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by tepp:
The bottom line is that anyone who holds Roswell to a strict
standard of authenticity or even consistency is going to be
disappointed. That is neither its strong suit nor its emphasis. On
the other hand, I've said many times (in letters to Katims and the
WB for example) that Roswell is the freshest take on science
fiction conventions I've ever seen. Its basic premise offers an
incredible platform for telling stories. Like many, I fear that
recent and apparent future developments threaten to circumscribe
some of its possibilities. Nonetheless, I think we owe its
creators the benefit of the doubt. They've earned it.
Tepp: I agree with your appraisal of the Sci-Fi elements of the
show. IMO, Katims has brought an innocence, of sorts, to sci-fi that
we haven't seen. 'X-Files' brought the cynics' jaded views, and
other shows which I've only peripherally noticed, are too concerned
with the 'us against them' battle between humans and those of other,
shall we say, biological descent?
Having just watched the ep. I was a little dismayed at the brutality
(okay, the fact that I'm a diehard Dreamer added to my dismay), but
I guess the writers really needed to build the audience's anomosity
against Pierce.
Back to Tepp's quote about authenticity: as much as I dig this show,
it is a show. The story is fun, the characters engaging, and the
acting has consistently improved (I'll vote with Elliott, though,
regarding De Raven. Just a little too stiff and whiny for me. Too
reminscent of a 'Dawson's Creek' chick for me.)
I'm just hopin' there's renewal on the horizon for the pod squad.
Oh, Mike, I agree: there IS plenty of room for pragmatic science and
romance. Afterall, the universe is a pretty big place, right?
My two cents worth . . .

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-11-2000 09:21 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Heart of Ice:
Tepp: I agree with your appraisal of the Sci-Fi elements of the
show...Back to Tepp's quote about authenticity: as much as I dig
this show, it is a show.
Heart of Ice I actually agree with you. I think our earlier
discussion focused on the issue of "good" vs. "bad" SF (and this in
response to someone labeling Roswell as "fantasy"). I simply
suggested that one type of "bad" or "silly" SF was that which failed
to convince the audience of the plausibility of its elements.
Roswell is a "show" and one that does an excellent job of
dovetailing romance with SF. And its SF does not even have to
reseamble real science--only "appear" to reseamble it. That helps us
suspend our disbelief.
But at times I suspect that we stretch our normal belief limits on
the SF border to accomodate our desire to believe the contours of
Roswell's romantic storyline. So, for instance, Mike can close his
mental eyes to that strobe light scene while reveling in its
romantic ambiance.
I do it all the time with Roswell (there--I admit it Mike).
LSS

silver.star Member Posts: 53
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-11-2000 09:30 AM
In regards to the question "were the aliens captured during landing
or takeoff?" I am not sure myself to any speculation. I am leaning
more towards the taking off theory. In the past I have thought of an
alien/human collaboration in engineering our fab 3 + Tess, which is
still a possibility in my mind. But the answer to the crash makes a
huge impact on this theory. I still believe that there is something
missing from this story, Tess is not who she claims to be (I agree
with that). Nasedo .....well he has me puzzled now, I have said
before I did not think he was evil just a protector of some sorts.
Now (axiablue and I)we have been discussing the different
speculations that viewers have come up with 1. Protector , 2. Evil
alien.
I am not sure who brought this up, but maybe he is trying to bring
them out into the open (sort of speak) for the "bad aliens". Which
to me is a possibility. Could it be that Nasedo is (do not really
know how to word this right now but) two faced. Manipulating our fab
3 into believing that he is here to protect them, teach them and
guide them. Do we really know if Tess is actually who she says she
is?? Could she too be on the other side?? We saw Max remembering
Tess in the pod, but we also know Tess can make you see things that
are not really there. Did she manipulate Max into seeing the 4th
pod?? Could the 4th alien have escaped instead of dying?? (You know
the 2 dead 2 alive thing)....And if so is he Howie D's charactor??
Another question we (axiablue and I) came up with is --back in the
early episodes there was a scene where Liz took a sample of Max's
saliva .. put it under a scope and it was (different) not human. So
if the Special Unit (Pierce, I still think there is something not
right with him.) found that the only difference was in his blood how
do we explain the saliva in the early episode??

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-11-2000 09:51 AM
quote:
Originally posted by LSS:
If the TV series is going to leave this open then we have the
potential for a alien mole--who mave have "turned" after extensive
brainwashing (damn, 3 yrs in that room--what a horrid thought) and
is working on the FBI's side. Or--if Nesedo escaped after 3 years
it explains all those dead bodies--revenge! This would mean that
that elusive 4th alien is still unaccounted for!
You've also gotta wonder why the escapee alien didn't rescue the
captive. Maybe security was tighter around there after the crash,
but I would think the escapee would have figured something out.
There are several possibilities. It may have simply taken 3 years to
figure it out. It may have taken 3 years to "set up" a more
important mission (e.g., the pods), and then the escapee tried. Any
higher priority mission (e.g., raising MMI&T) may have necessitated
not risking the escapee's life by going back at any time. The two
aliens may have been from different factions (if different factions
exist). Perhaps an alien culture wouldn't have same rescue ethic we
like to think humans have. Or, finally, maybe s/he did & we just
haven't heard about it yet.

Elliott Member Posts: 850
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-11-2000 09:59 AM
RemyS: Thanks for the greeting. It's appreciated.
In the face of what I'm assuming will be certain renewal for 22
episodes next season (so just call me an optimist), the biggest
question we will face this hiatus is: what tone and direction will
ROSWELL take next season? I bring this up because I think that is
the real subject of the last few posts on this thread.
I posted on the 'Comments About White Room' thread but that has
already dropped off the board. Character detail and credibility are
desperately needed now. For every fan that complains about the lack
of romance in the series now, there are other, newer viewers who
love the faster pacing and sci-fi emphasis. In an interview on the
'News' page at Crashdown today, Brendan Fehr talks about seeing the
first few episodes again and finding them boring. Possibly so. I
have generally liked most of the last five shows (with the pointed
exception of 'Four Square') but have bemoaned the lack of
consistency, the loss of detail and the monotonous editing style
(which has plagued this series all season). There has to be a happy
medium, and Katims et al. haven't found it yet.
I assume that tone and emphasis were tilted 180 degrees to please
the WB. Okay, that's pragmatic. But having half a season of plot
crammed into six shows is taking a toll, and a lot of what made
ROSWELL so resonant and memorable might still be lost if the
characters become mere cardboard superheroes with their allies and
enemies.
I was not a huge fan of 'Into the Woods' when it first aired. But in
retrospect it was a wonderful episode that told us a lot about the
main characters, their evolving relationships with each other, their
relationships with their parents, etc. This only enriched the sci-fi
aspect of that episode and others that followed. Unless we
understand and love the characters as we have up until now, no
amount of action, no matter how dramatic, will have any meaning at
all. The result would be that the median age for ROSWELL viewers
would drop from 27 to 12.
I do trust the taste and intelligence of the creative team. Once
contracts have been signed I hope that equilibrium will be restored.
I hope that the show will slow down for the first couple of episodes
next season so the characters (and the audience) can think about and
react to all the 'plot' that has been revealed lately. And I trust
that there will still be an occasional 'Blind Date' or 'Sexual
Healing' in ROSWELL's future, because it wouldn't be ROSWELL without
that. But gosh, I'd give anything to be able to talk to Jason Katims
about this face to face. Is that presumptuous of me?

lise5094 Junior Member Posts: 8
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-11-2000 10:08 AM
quote:
?? Silver.star: Another question we (axiablue and I) came up with
is --back in the early episodes there was a scene where Liz took a
sample of Max's saliva .. put it under a scope and it was
(different) not human. So if the Special Unit (Pierce, I still
think there is something not right with him.)found that the only
difference was in his blood how do we explain the saliva in the
early episode??[/B]
As LSS said, we simply have to suspend our disbelief here: the props
department has taken a picture of plant cells and used it in both
scenes (pilot and white room) to indicate the "alien nature" of his
cells. This is where the "few thousand years of evolution" is such a
problem for my suspension of disbelief. I can happily accept that
our underused cerebral cortices, if able to work at full capacity,
could do all sorts of marvellous things. I can allow Nasedo to
shapeshift. I can easily see sparklers from parking meters. These
things aren't given a hard scientific explanation. But when they ARE
using "scientific" props, I wish they'd spend a little more money
and/or time and research on them and make them a little more
believable. Plant cells are NEVER going to evolve into mammalian
ones; the separation took place over a billion years ago. And the
orbs still look to me like the plastic containers L'eggs stockings
come in.
As LSS said: "Roswell is a "show" and one that does an excellent job
of dovetailing romance with SF. And its SF does not even have to
reseamble real science--only "appear" to reseamble it. That helps us
suspend our disbelief." (p.s. LSS, if you want to quote 2 different
posts, you still have to use cut and paste)
My disbelief suspends more easily when they stay away from hard
scientific explanations; they're too likely to get it badly wrong.
On the other hand, from my perspective, they get the romance
perfectly right.
[This message has been edited by lise5094 (edited 05-11-2000).]
[This message has been edited by lise5094 (edited 05-12-2000).]

silver.star Member Posts: 53
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-11-2000 10:42 AM
I realize that the cells whether they be blood or saliva are plant
cell pictures. My question is if Pierce told Max the only difference
between humans and the "alien" Max is his blood cells...what about
the episode with the saliva??
I agree this is just a show, no doubt about that, it is just so much
fun and stimulating to read all these posts. The intellecutal
stimulation of Sci-Fi is amazing. Don't ya think?? To expand your
mind and think of the possibilities, stretch your thinking abilities
and have a little fun. Just go with it. I am sure everyone here
knows it is just a show (by the way THAT WE LOVE).
Not sure I would call it FANTASY myself, Sci-Fi is closer to reality
(IMHO) than fantasy. I might have used fantasy myself while posting
but....I think I will change my mind.

Heart of Ice Member Posts: 260
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-11-2000 11:07 AM
LSS, et. al., I think we've finally verbalized what I really like
about "Roswell" (after how many threads calling for "What do you
like about ... ) - it is, as you so aptly wrote the "dovetailing"
[dig that word!] of sci-fi and romance. I like the intrigue but,
alas it is the romance that keeps me coming back
week to week.
As Elliott wrote (btw HAPPY B-DAY TO U ON SATURDAY!!), I've very
much enjoyed the plot lines of the last few eps. but, please oh
please, PTB, don't eliminate the 'Sexual Healing' and 'Blind Date'
themes. It's the marinara that makes my pasta spicy, you know (can
you tell it's almost lunchtime??) And, geez, the on-screen chemistry
is addicting.
Another two cents from the ever-delurking HoI!

Noah Junior Member Posts: 7
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-11-2000 12:26 PM
Nasedo appears indifferent to all though he is determined to protect
our pod squad. Yet shouldn't we supsect his motives are than selfish
and personal in nature? Does he need our now grown aliens to return
to his home planet? Is he planning some type of revenge for his
mission gone wrong? Even if originally he was sent to protect there
must be some personal gain for continuing in this mission when the
crash has ruined the initial destiny plans.

Noah Junior Member Posts: 7
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-11-2000 12:32 PM
Nasedo appears indifferent to all though he is determined to protect
our pod squad. Yet shouldn't we supsect his motives are than selfish
and personal in nature? Does he need our now grown aliens to return
to his home planet? Is he planning some type of revenge for his
mission gone wrong? Even if originally he was sent to protect there
must be some personal gain for continuing in this mission when the
crash has ruined the initial destiny plans.

Vicki Junior Member Posts: 4
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-11-2000 10:53 PM
Mike:
Let's see on the CD thing. I agree. It's probably best not to over
analyze something that was clearly meant to be just a cute trick. It
seems to be some casual mental exercise for Isabel. She effortlessly
generates sound waves following a pattern digitally encoded in a
plastic plate while also holding a conversation with Max. Maybe
something like the way songs can sometimes get stuck in your mind
and keep playing in your head only in her case she can externalize
it. She doesn't bother to mention it on her skills list.

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-12-2000 01:01 AM
LSS: I haven't gone back to confirm this (I've seen it 3 times
already), but this is what I understood the story on the aliens
found in the crash. In 1947, the authorities investigating the crash
found four aliens, two dead and two alive. They took the two living
aliens to the base facility, and one of them escaped shortly
afterwards (presumably Nasedo, who says he has escaped from there).
The other one was studied for the next three years (ca. 1947-1950),
but then he died or was killed. Since that time, the authorities
(like Pierce) have only had the records of that three-year study and
the reports of Nasedo's activities to guide their efforts. As best I
recall, this is what Pierce reveals to Max. Whether or not it's true
and whether Nasedo is the alien who escaped the facility is another
question.
Mike Zeares, Elliott, LSS, Heart of Ice, et al: I like science
fiction, but I don't consider myself a scifi fan. I say that because
the people I know who describe themselves that way tend to most like
the parts I like least. One of the things I do typically like in
scifi stories is the action adventure angle. For example, I love the
enormous war scenes in Deep Space Nine and Babylon 5. Obviously,
that kind of thing has nothing to do with why I like Roswell.
I think the discussion of whether Roswell is "fantasy" or in fact
"science fiction" is interesting. I took a course in popular fiction
when I was an undergrad, and the professor defined science fiction
as having a plot that "turned" on science. Folowing this definition,
"The Terminator" would be classed as SciFi while "Star Wars" would
be fantasy. But such definitions are open to debate, and that's not
really the point I want to make here.
The reason that we so often see elements of traditional "Romances"
(Chivalric Romances, Gothic Romances, myths, fairy tales, etc.) in
science fiction is because that's about the only place they can
still exist. The earliest of these forms rely heavily on archetypal
structures and often emphasize symbolic and even allegorical
elements. The later Gothic novels and stories almost always looks to
a foreboding past whose supernatural traumas keep threatening to
erupt into the story's present.
It is very difficult to make pure examples of these genres relevant
to a contemporary audience. While watching and taping Roswell, I was
also taping the second half of "Jason and the Argonauts." I haven't
watched it yet, but I expect it to be pretty good. Nonetheless, I
and everyone else who watches it will probably be constantly aware
that we are watching an "old" story. We will never be able to forget
that it comes from a traditon whose values and beliefs differ from
ours, beliefs we have outgrown and discarded. We do not believe that
there is or ever was a Poseidon any more than we believe that there
are werewolves or vampires. We may "agree" to suspend our disbelief
in order to be entertained, and we may even derive some moral lesson
from what we see, but we have to work at participating in such
stories. We have to grant them a great deal of license before we can
take much from them.
The supernatural and fantastic elements of science fiction are
different. Whether or not they deserve it, we can much more easily
accept them as the real possibilities of an uncertain future. We
can't accept fairies or goblins, but we can't rule out aliens or
androids. Once we allow these kinds of possibilities, then we
recreate the mythic worlds of our own traditions and relegitimize
them in the process. Suddenly we've got holy quests, trials of
initiation, and epic journeys being undertaken in outer space. We
confront our goblins and black knights and sorcerors on other
planets. We slay dragons and rescue princesses using laser cannons
and light sabers.
Some science fiction makes little or no attempt to draw from past
traditions. Sometimes, the traditional origins of a contemporay work
are so obvious that it seems as dated and naive as the ancient ones
it used as a template.
---I'm about to pass out. I'll finish this later. ---

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-12-2000 05:28 AM
Hi folks,
For those of you interested in idea of whether the human brain could
develop MM&I�s powers through evolution, there�s an interesting
article in the Wall Street Journal today about a painter whose work
was radically transformed (apparently for the better) after having a
stroke that paralyzed the right side of her body. Here are a couple
excerpts:
Tragedy Turns a Right-Handed Artist
Into a Lefty -- and a Star in Art World
By PETER WALDMAN
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
* * *
The artist's newfound success raises an intriguing question: Could
the stroke, by injuring part of Ms. Sherwood's brain, have enhanced
her powers of creativity? The answer, say brain researchers, is
quite possibly yes.
Paul Corballis, a neuroscientist at Dartmouth College, in Hanover,
N.H., offers a startling hypothesis, yet one grounded in the latest
research on the human mind: that Ms. Sherwood's stroke, by damaging
or disconnecting the part of her brain responsible for logical
reasoning, may have freed up the rest of her mind to think more
creatively, unencumbered by normal neurological constraints.
"The thinking now is that all our great human intelligence comes
with a hidden cost in other arenas," says Dr. Corballis.
* * *
How could this be? For decades, neuroscientists have known the
brain's left and right sides house different mental functions.
Notably, the left hemisphere, which controls the body's right side,
is dominant in language and complex thought, while the right side,
which controls the body's left side, handles advanced perceptual
tasks. But that doesn't mean scientists are "left-brained" and
artists are "right-brained." In a normal person, the two sides of
the brain are intricately linked, assuring a seamless presence of
all types of skills.
Still, it is possible, neuroscientists say, that, given the location
of Ms. Sherwood's stroke, in the so-called internal capsule of her
left hemisphere, the hemorrhage remapped circuitry inside her head
in a way that strengthened her more-artistic right side.
Specifically, they say, the stroke could have at least partially
disabled the specialized system in the left hemisphere that
researchers have dubbed the "interpreter." This system constantly
seeks explanations for why events occur; seeks order and reason,
even when there isn't any. Research has shown it can overwhelm other
mental processes, so weakening it could improve one's art, experts
say.

Jugular Member Posts: 169
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-12-2000 05:43 AM
I've seen proof of the same phenomenon. A program on Fox that aired
last year (The World's Most Amazing Medical Miracles?) featured a
young boy who'd lost most of the right side of his brain (I think
due to a tumor). Anyway, the doctors thought he would become a
vegetable, giving up all hope that the boy would have a chance at a
normal life once the tumor was removed. But amazingly, he recovered
beautifully, with only a slight limp in his step (not to mention a
huge dent in his skull) that hinted at his medical past. But as
JanetMG stated above, the doctors credit this miraculous recovery to
the re-routing of the brain's circuitry.
So if the brain can spontaenously do this on it's own, what other
incredible things is it capable of?

silver.star Member Posts: 53
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-12-2000 06:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Jugular:
So if the brain can spontaenously do this on it's own, what other
incredible things is it capable of?
Amazing is this not?? The possiblity (REALITY) that our brains are
capable of so much more than what we are doing now. I know I will
probably never see the day that we can actually band together as one
species and work on a way to evolve without destruction of our
fellow human beings (or earthlings).........I say open your mind and
free your spirit!!!!

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-12-2000 07:19 AM
Just a quick post before I go to administer my last exam:
We've had Star Wars come up several times in terms of genre
classification. Both Mike and
tepp referred to it as "fantasy". Technically speaking, in SF
circles, Star Wars is known as "Space Opera"--a category for space
adventure narratives which are based on an epic battle (though
fairly simplistic) of good vs. evil.
To be fair, I should mention that genre classificatons are not
etched in stone. I have several files full of articles simply
debating what is the essence of SF. The definition I posted before
(that it relies on science--real or imagined) is a distillation of
many of these articles. Other WB shows like Buffy or Angel would
more suitably classifed as coming from the Horror tradition that
relies more on the supernatural for explanation (though with the
introduction of the soldiers and underground installation and Adam
Buffy, we are treated to a weird mix of SF/Horror). When you are in
"fantasy"--technically speaking, explanation relies not on science
or the supernatural, but on more magical causation--and on imaginary
creatures--like trolls, elves (but not aliens).
LSS

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-12-2000 07:27 AM
quote:
Originally posted by silver.star:
The possiblity (REALITY) that our brains are capable of so much
more than what we are doing now.
It is fascinating, isn't it? I'm also intrigued by the idea that the
"interpreter" side is limiting us--that the logical, scientific
explanations (that we search for here with respect to Roswell and
throughout our culture with respect to many issues) may be, in part,
preventing us from developing. At one time, a round world was
considered illogical, as was the idea that the earth revolves around
the sun. Ater we were able to physically perceive these things, our
ideas of what was logical changed and whole new areas of exploration
opened up. Who knows what powers or abilities we could develop if we
only thought it was logical to do so?

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-12-2000 08:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by silver.star:
Not sure I would call it FANTASY myself, Sci-Fi is closer to
reality (IMHO) than fantasy. I might have used fantasy myself
while posting but....I think I will change my mind.
I was the one that labeled ROSWELL a fantasy, which was partly a
result of participating in forums where the definitions of the
various sub-genres of speculative fiction are more rigidly applied.
But it also had to do with the way MMI's powers were presented in
the early eps. They were just "cool magic powers," with no attempt
to give them a sci-fi grounding. However, that has changed in the
recent eps. I feel the show fits more into the sci-fi camp now,
which I think was the producer's intent all along. Frakes mentioned
that they just didn't have the budget to be anything more than a
teen soap at first. Unfortunately, they're having to cram a lot into
these last few eps, to the detriment of some of the romantic
nuances. Hopefully they can find a balance next season (I'm pretty
confident they will).
Mike Zeares

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-12-2000 08:36 AM
JanetMB
BTW--exploring the boundaries of what is "logical" for humans is
actually being done at US universities. If you are interested in
looking at what credible professors in the sciences are saying about
"fringe" ideas like psi powers--look up the Society for Scientific
Exploration on the net. It is a "real" learned society whose goal is
to address, among other things, what you are talking about. They
post some of the papers and it is really interesting (if a bit
hair-raising) to see what science scholars from big name schools are
actually looking into!!!!
Here is the welcome mesage from its President:
A MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT
Welcome to the Society for Scientific Exploration. Our Society was
founded in 1982 by a committee of fourteen scientists and
scholars who had identified the need for a new type of scientific
organization, one
that would foster the study of all questions that are amenable to
scientific investigation without restriction. Despite the enormous
advances in science in the last century, there are important areas
that remain almost unexplored. Some are of great public interest and
touch deep philosophical questions. Is the mind a machine or an
entity that is in some sense independent of the body? Is there
credible evidence that intelligent life exists on other planets near
other stars in our galaxy, or that our solar system has ever been
visited by extraterrestrial beings? Some areas have technological
potentials that could be of great benefit to mankind: Do some
human beings have the capability of locating water and other
life-giving resources? Are there sources of energy available to
mankind other than sunlight, fossil fuels, and nuclear energy?
The Society, which now has eight hundred Members and Associates from
more than forty-five countries worldwide, facilitates the
investigation of these and other
momentous questions providing a forum for the presentation and
criticism of relevant research. It has held annual meetings since
1982 and biennial European meetings since 1992, and published a
quarterly peer-reviewed journal since 1987. I invite you to become a
partner in this great venture by becoming an Associate, Member, or
supporter of our Society or a subscriber to the Journal of
Scientific Exploration.
Peter Sturrock, Stanford University
LSS

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-12-2000 08:37 AM
JanetMB
BTW--exploring the boundaries of what is "logical" for humans is
actually being done at US universities. If you are interested in
looking at what credible professors in the sciences are saying about
"fringe" ideas like psi powers--look up the Society for Scientific
Exploration on the net. It is a "real" learned society whose goal is
to address, among other things, what you are talking about. They
post some of the papers and it is really interesting (if a bit
hair-raising) to see what science scholars from big name schools are
actually looking into!!!!
Here is the welcome mesage from its President:
A MESSAGE FROM THE PRESIDENT
Welcome to the Society for Scientific Exploration. Our Society was
founded in 1982 by a committee of fourteen scientists and
scholars who had identified the need for a new type of scientific
organization, one
that would foster the study of all questions that are amenable to
scientific investigation without restriction. Despite the enormous
advances in science in the last century, there are important areas
that remain almost unexplored. Some are of great public interest and
touch deep philosophical questions. Is the mind a machine or an
entity that is in some sense independent of the body? Is there
credible evidence that intelligent life exists on other planets near
other stars in our galaxy, or that our solar system has ever been
visited by extraterrestrial beings? Some areas have technological
potentials that could be of great benefit to mankind: Do some
human beings have the capability of locating water and other
life-giving resources? Are there sources of energy available to
mankind other than sunlight, fossil fuels, and nuclear energy?
The Society, which now has eight hundred Members and Associates from
more than forty-five countries worldwide, facilitates the
investigation of these and other
momentous questions providing a forum for the presentation and
criticism of relevant research. It has held annual meetings since
1982 and biennial European meetings since 1992, and published a
quarterly peer-reviewed journal since 1987. I invite you to become a
partner in this great venture by becoming an Associate, Member, or
supporter of our Society or a subscriber to the Journal of
Scientific Exploration.
Peter Sturrock, Stanford University
LSS

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-12-2000 11:01 AM
LSS: Almost everything I know about science fiction comes from
watching scifi tv shows and movies. I've read some H.G. Welles and
Verne but almost nothing written in this century. I know who
"old-timers" Asimov, Bradbury, and Harlan Ellison are, but that's
about it. Like most people, I tend to lump anything that centers on
science and technology, the future, space travel, time travel, or
aliens into the broad category of science fiction. Obviously, this
admits a huge variety of stuff and allows things as different as
"Jurassic Park" and "The Illustrated Man" to coexist under this
umbrella. One way I see to separate individual works into
subcategories is to look at how important a scientific or rational
explanation of the phenomena they depict is to their central
conflicts. In "Jurassic Park," it's very important. In the latter
three "Star Trek" series, it's somewhat important. In "Star Wars,"
it's relatively unimportant, and in "The Illustrated Man" it's not
even an issue.
The reason I think this distinction is important here is that, as we
know, Roswell is rapidly mutating before our eyes. I've always said
that Roswell made unique use of scifi conventions, but I've never
really tried to fully articulate what I meant by that, even for
myself. I'm a latecomer to the scifi threads, and in watching and
sometimes participating all the discussion about the believability
and consistency of the scifi elements I think some of what I've been
unconsciously responding to in the show is becoming clearer for me.
During the first half of the season, many of the conventions of
science fiction -- particularly that huge block of lore dealing with
UFOs and alien encounters we're all so familiar with -- was just
sitting over to the side. It was like this giant allusion that we
could use to reflect everything we saw off of. It added meaning and
significance to what was happening while at the same time
perpetuating an ambiguity which was central to the tone of the show.
Just as we were, the characters were asked to "persist in the face
of uncertainty." To some extent, their ability to do that --
particularly Liz's -- was the defining element of their characters.
Among the many wonderful and important moments in the pilot episode,
one that sums up what Roswell was "about," is the image of Liz on
the hill overlooking the Crash Festival's fireworks display and
answering Max's warning that "it's not safe" for them to "be
something more." She simply says, "I don't care." At that point
neither they nor we have any idea what the consequences might be for
any action they took, but also like them we had the entire universe
of scifi tradition to suggest possibilities. What defined Max and
Liz at the start was that they were willing to risk the unknown for
each other. Max could not have predicted the consequences of saving
Liz. He only knew that his actions involved great risk, yet he did
what he had to do anyway. Liz doesn't even know what Max "is" (for
all she knows at that point he could indeed really be "green and
slimy"), but she loves him all the same, and everything she does
from that moment on verifies that she means what she says on that
hill.
Mike Zeares describes what's happening now as a shift away from
"fantasy." To be sure, Roswell is rapidly focusing more and more on
explaining its phenomena and creating a definite structure to
confine its characters. It cannot do this without limiting its
possibilities. Hopefully this won't be a bad thing. Most television
shows that I have liked have gotten better as they went along. Two
of the best examples for me are Star Trek series: TNG and DS9.
Interestingly, both these shows just stopped at a point of their own
choosing. Others improved to a point, and then hit a wall (seen the
X-Files lately?). But it's hard for me to imagine Roswell getting
better. Brendan Fehr was just quoted as saying the early episodes of
Roswell were "boring." I'd like to think that he's responding to the
fact that his character remained relatively one-dimensional for the
first few weeks.
I don't know that Roswell could have maintained itself in the
uncertain world of the early episodes. I said earlier that I had
faith in Katims and the show. I do, but I also share many people's
worries that this shift in direction could lose something essential.
One thing I already miss is Liz's voice. Before "Toy House," Roswell
was basically "told" from Liz's point of view. She provided one of
the few stable reference points we had. That approach has been all
but abandoned. Some may applaud that, believing that a more
objective point of view opens things up for other characters. I'm
not sure that's true though. Maybe this new external structure will
successfully replace her internal one. Let's hope so.

redhawk Member Posts: 54
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-12-2000 02:27 PM
Time to delurk. Thanks, JanetMG, for the Wall Street Journal
article. I knew I shouldn't have canceled that subscription a few
months ago. After years of getting that paper, I just couldn't keep
up with everything going on in my life.
Anyway, the article reminded me of a few things. As a trained artist
from the time I was very young and small, I've known for a long time
about the great possibilities the brain has with regards to art and
how certain parts of the brain affect the way we create. Well, I had
forgotten about how this may apply to M/M/I and the "evolution" of
the brain to create their powers. I, too, was very skeptical of it
taking only a few thousand years to create these powers in the human
race, but the more I think about it, severe trauma could bring about
something like this. Although, I still have my doubts about healing.
Thanks again for reminding me of this.
As usual, this is a fascinating thread. I've got to run for now.

Jei Member Posts: 317
Registered: Jan 2000 posted 05-12-2000 03:13 PM
While I too miss the 'Liz voiceovers' for the fact that they were a
staple in the episodes.
I've always had a feeling that while Liz was providing us with
'filler', it was really the Pod Squads' POV we were getting. Their
perceptions on the events around them.
It will be interesting to see what POV is taken in the next season.
As for the theories and ideas as to what humans can or can't do with
their minds. It's
truly a dizzing subject. There are so many unexplained things about
humans, so many areas no one is 100% sure about. As in what causes
deja vu, how do people walk up to each other - meeting for the first
time and instantly get a feeling of like or dislike?
Or how sometimes we just know something is wrong with a loved one.
Then the powers of say a perfect human being.
Would it be that our bodies would heal and recover faster than we do
now? Would we be less accident prone should our powers of
perception, (eye sight and depth perception) be at it's highest?

Arctic Lurker Member Posts: 166
Registered: Nov 1999 posted 05-12-2000 04:50 PM
Tepp: Thanks for another interesting post. I'm going to respond to a
couple of the comments you made. You wrote:
quote:
Brendan Fehr was just quoted as saying the early episodes of
Roswell were "boring." I'd like to think that he's responding to
the fact that his character remained relatively one-dimensional
for the first few weeks.
When I read that same article, I was deeply disappointed in his
comment since I found the early Roswell episodes far from boring. I
expect you may be correct in thinking that it was because of the
limitations placed on his character in the early part of the season.
We were given a very leisurely and luxurious ride along the road of
character development and that made the show much more realistic and
enjoyable for me. I was delighted that the unfolding of
personalities happened slowly and with some inconsistences, since in
real life, we tend to take the two steps forward and one step back
approach to growth.
You also wrote:
quote:
I don't know that Roswell could have maintained itself in the
uncertain world of the early episodes. I said earlier that I had
faith in Katims and the show. I do, but I also share many people's
worries that this shift in direction could lose something
essential. One thing I already miss is Liz's voice. Before "Toy
House," Roswell was basically "told" from Liz's point of view. She
provided one of the few stable reference points we had.
I agree that it was nice to have a stable point of view and I
enjoyed that it was the human one. On the other hand, I think that
forgoing that stability enhanced the frenzied pace at which events
suddenly started to unfold. I admit though, I don't like the fact
that too much has happened too soon. In fact I would like to have
seen a large part of the last few episodes wait for next season.
I just hope that next fall, assuming renewal, the writers will again
find a centre and relax, to some extent, the pace. It was the small
stories that I enjoyed during the early part of the season, and I'll
be highly disappointed if next year's episodes become one long
stream of life shattering events. I'd probably still watch though!
Lol

jkk Junior Member Posts: 1
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-12-2000 07:11 PM
If Michael is destined to be with Isabel than why in The Balance
when he was healed in the circle did he kiss Maria not once but
twice and Isabel only kissed him on the cheek and huged him?

Alienwatcher
Member
Posts: 28
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-12-2000 08:04 PM
Re: Max and Tess - I think that the aliens were originally paired so
that they would not be alone. It was unforseen and unintentional
that Max, Is and Michael would be raised by human parents as human.
They were never meant to form any emotional bonds or interact
closely with any humans as is evident in Tess, having been raised by
Nasedo. I think the connection Tess refers to is wishful thinking.
Having been isolated for so long and having been told repeatedly by
Nasedo that she and Max are destined for one another, I think she is
desparate for it to be true.
Another thing re: Tess - Since she is able to put images into
peoples heads, maybe the whole pod thing was fabricated. Maybe there
really were only three pods. Or the fourth pod malfunctioned and
that person died so Tess is pretending to be her. Tess may totally
not be who she says she is. Maybe she is the "3rd" alien that was
captured and questioned and only pretending to be the fourth of the
pod squad inorder to push them to their destiny. She knew an awful
lot about the military base. Perhaps Nasedo knew that without Max
having a mate his feelings for Liz could jeopardize his destiny and
Tess is to break them up so that Max can focus on what he is meant
for. Nasedo did say that human emotions are a liablity.

Alienwatcher
Member
Posts: 28
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-12-2000 08:09 PM
Re: Max and Tess - I think that the aliens were originally paired so
that they would not be alone. It was unforseen and unintentional
that Max, Is and Michael would be raised by human parents as human.
They were never meant to form any emotional bonds or interact
closely with any humans as is evident in Tess, having been raised by
Nasedo. I think the connection Tess refers to is wishful thinking.
Having been isolated for so long and having been told repeatedly by
Nasedo that she and Max are destined for one another, I think she is
desparate for it to be true.
Another thing re: Tess - Since she is able to put images into
peoples heads, maybe the whole pod thing was fabricated. Maybe there
really were only three pods. Or the fourth pod malfunctioned and
that person died so Tess is pretending to be her. Tess may totally
not be who she says she is. Maybe she is the "3rd" alien that was
captured and questioned and only pretending to be the fourth of the
pod squad inorder to push them to their destiny. She knew an awful
lot about the military base. Perhaps Nasedo knew that without Max
having a mate his feelings for Liz could jeopardize his destiny and
Tess is to break them up so that Max can focus on what he is meant
for. Nasedo did say that human emotions are a liablity.

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-12-2000 11:48 PM
Hmmmm, maybe this thread has died, but at least Roswell is ALIVE,
for another half a season anyway. Yahoo!
Nevertheless, it's time for me to play spoilsport if anyone's still
around. One of the favorite themes of scifi has been the idea that
intelligent beings -- human or alien -- will eventually evolve what
to us appear as supernatural abilities like telekinesis, telepathy,
precognition, and even the ability to "manipulate molecular
structures." A common evolutionary goal in scifi media is the
eventual freedom from instrumentality and even physicality. The
ultimate scifi being exists as a consciousness manifested as pure
energy but able to control the physical realm at will. Ironically,
this "scientific" image is but another version of the soul. However,
the flaw in the scifi version is that it is based on a basic
misunderstanding of a fundamental principle of biology: evolution.
I've often noticed that it is very difficult even for experts to
discuss evolution without anthropomorphic concepts creeping
unnoticed into the discourse. The principles of "natural selection"
contain no teleological imperatives like "progress" and no relative
valuations like "superiority." Nevertheless, the common idea is that
evolution is a progressive process in which organisms evolve from
simpler to more complex and therefore superior forms. It don't work
that way. In terms of evolution, all change occurs by accident, and
the only relative measure of value is success, and success is
defined merely by persistence. In evolutionary terms, human beings
won't know for at least another 100 million years if they are as
"successful" as crocodiles, cockroaches, or paramecium.
It's quite possible that human beings have stopped evolving at all,
and it's almost certain that they are on their way to becoming
products not of a natural process but of "artificial selection."
Instead of our development being shaped by the natural environment,
we are reshaping our environment to suit ourselves. In the process,
we are maintaining and increasing elements of our gene pool which
would be liabilities in an evolutionary context. We are slowly but
surely becoming reliant on our technology. This process has only
been really significant for less than 100 years, but perhaps 100,000
years from now a substantial proportion of whatever human population
exists might require a technological cure for some inherited
condition that would have prevented them from reaching maturity 500
or 1000 years ago.
But we are not only actively recreating our environment, we are
aggressively reshaping ourselves. Already we are growing bigger,
stronger, and more intelligent thanks to technological advances in
agriculture and medicine. Synthetic hormones, genetic engineering,
and cloning are just three examples of artificial-selection
technologies which already exist. Who knows what's next. So perhaps
we can and will reconstitute ourselves as the superior beings we
envision through our own devices.
But I haven't forgotten about Roswell. So were did these advanced
human abilities that MMI were "born" with come from? They certainly
didn't come from natural selection. And if they are the result of
future technological advances, how did the aliens anticipate them?
Nasedo implies that present-day humans already have vast untapped
capacities. Presumably, the aliens were able to study these
potential abilities and understand how we might learn to unleash
them. However, our pod squad burst forth with them already in full
force. As soon as they emerged, they were communicating
telepathically, and, Max was healing birds before he even knew he
could. Poor Michael may have discovered early on he had powers, but
he has still barely learned to use them.
No, I'm afraid we're not going to find a scientific validation of
our gang's supernatural abilities. Despite the uncommon nature of
our beloved show, our heroes' powers appear to be rather pedestrian
scifi fare, and their design owes much more to dramatic
possibilities than to any biological principles. It could be a lot
worse. Roswell could have been cancelled, BUT IT WASN'T!!!!!!!!
[This message has been edited by tepp (edited 05-12-2000).]

LSS Member Posts: 848
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-13-2000 12:39 AM
Alienwatcher:
Concerning the implantation of memories--it just occured to me that,
while we see images of Tess in a pod as early as TLV, we see Max and
Izzy as children in a vision only after Tess has seen the pictures
Diana Evans showed her. It is tempting to think that these pictures
might have been the foundation for the "memories". The only problem
with this is that Michael is in the vision too--and I'm not sure we
can assume that Diana Evans showed Tess pictures of Michael as well.
Every time I go down the "the whole thing is fake" road, I get
stopped by a roadblock of "logic". Since some of you are convinced,
however, I keep trying to look for a way around!
LSS
. lok nt

Breathless Member Posts: 180
Registered: Feb 2000 posted 05-13-2000 01:05 AM
This is not specifically about the scifi of TWR but I'm going to put
it on this thread anyway. I posted this on the "Was Liz changed"
thread but I thought I'd post it here too.
One thing I�ve been wondering about since Leaving Normal is the book
that Grandma wrote. It was called �Lost Treasures� by Claudia Parker
and Liz said it was the first findings about the Navaho Indians in
hundreds of years. Liz also said it would be in the American Journal
of Archeology. I always expected this book to be something
significant. I mean it could have been a book of poetry, but no, it
was about Indian Archeology. It just seemed like an important clue
at the time. With the introduction of Riverdog and the cave
drawings, I thought Liz would one day be flipping through Grandma�s
book and find the symbols from the cave. I thought this would lead
to Max discovering how to read the symbols. Then we could speculate
how Grandma discovered the symbols, and what her connection to
everything might have been. But 17 episodes later, the book has
never been mentioned again.
I still think it would be cool if Liz found the symbols in Grandma�s
book, discovered that what they actually meant was not what Tess and
Nasedo said they meant and had to save Max, Michael and Isabel from
their evil clutches.

JanetMG
Member

Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-13-2000 05:40 AM
quote:
Originally posted by jkk:
If Michael is destined to be with Isabel than why in The Balance
when he was healed in the circle did he kiss Maria not once but
twice and Isabel only kissed him on the cheek and huged him?
Interesting point. The content of Michael's pre-Tess vision in The
Balance was very different and included Maria, Liz & Alex. Did the
arrival of Tess change their destiny?Like LSS, I find it difficult
to logically support the idea that Tess is making everything up, but
she could be making parts up & her arrival could change things in
other ways. Are there indeed competing destinies? This gives some
support to that idea (other that Max's declaration to Liz about
fate). As does the fact that the "liabilities" helped Max & Is
restore Michael's "alien" balance.
Breathless--I keep waiting for Grandma's book to pop up, too. I'm
also wondering if the necklace has a function. The map hasn't been
mentioned for several eps, I'm hoping it will return. I'm also
wondering about River Dog (& Larry & Jennifer--At the time, it
seemed significant that they were staying in Roswell). I'm curious
about the parents, too, but they seem less important from a sci fi
perspective thus far.
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 05-13-2000).]

Mike Zeares Junior Member Posts: 22
Registered: Apr 2000 posted 05-13-2000 06:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by tepp:
Hmmmm, maybe this thread has died, but at least Roswell is ALIVE,
for another half a season anyway. Yahoo!
I'll see your "Yahoo!" and raise you a "Yehaw!" (I live in Texas).
quote:
No, I'm afraid we're not going to find a scientific validation of
our gang's supernatural abilities. Despite the uncommon nature of
our beloved show, our heroes' powers appear to be rather
pedestrian scifi fare, and their design owes much more to dramatic
possibilities than to any biological principles. It could be a lot
worse. Roswell could have been cancelled, BUT IT WASN'T!!!!!!!!
That's pretty much the conclusion I came to. None of the sci-fi
elements in ROSWELL are particularly original, and in fact some of
the spoilers are almost depressingly cliche, as I mentioned earlier.
What made the show different was the relationships and the teen
alienation metaphor, and the mixture of tv genres that usually don't
meet. I still fear that these might have been lost in the revamp. If
ROSWELL becomes merely a straightforward sci-fi/suspense show, like
THE X-FILES, its renewal will have been wasted, in my humble opinion
(well, maybe not so humble ). That's not so much a prediction as
just my venting, but I am concerned. I hope that the writers
continue to develop the relationships (I think we've lost the teen
alienation metaphor for good), that the parents become part of the
show again (they're the biggest loss so far), and that the sci-fi
elements don't become the driving point of the show. I was drawn to
ROSWELL by its human themes. I couldn't care less about alien powers
and conspiracies and [spoilers deleted]. I already gave up X-FILES.
Well, I guess we'll have to wait and see.
Mike Zeares

GraceKel Member Posts: 490
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-13-2000 07:22 AM
Tepp in regards to the pictures of Max and Isabel as children from
Mrs Evans(something I have been commenting on quite a lot) and the
fact that Michael is in the visions as well-------this supports my
theory that Michael came from the same group that TESS and NASEDO
come from and not Max and Isabel. They know what he looks like cuz
he is one of them. Look at the scene in BALANCE when Max tells Liz
about coming out of the pods (in regards to Michael) he says "we
walked for awhile (stressing the word awhile)!" We felt someone else
and Liz interupts with "Michael" "He was standing on this big rock
as if to say here I am deal with me" It has been the hardest thing
getting Michael to trust us! This is significant I think!
Another thing TEPP you(at least I think it was you) and I have
always been unsettled about Liz stepping back in the healing ritual
of Michael. It bothered me a lot cuz I thought it did not fit with
Liz's character---but remember Riverdog warns that there are
risks-it can change both your body and your mind(maybe Nasedo became
a shapeshifter because of this force?) I could not tell you how many
times Michael has stated that Nasedo is my family(many times writers
put truths in there when your are thinking something completely
different)!
People resist this idea about Michael because they think this makes
his character evil--NO that is not what I am trying to say but it
explains why he has been so distrusting-more than anyone else--I
think that slowly he has bonded with Max and Isabel and his new
human friends(this connection will save him from the dark force in
his background) Maybe Nasedo wanted to make sure that Tess and
Michael pair up with Max and Isabel because of other planetary
conflicts(hindering a destiny set in motion that could destroy his
kind).
Liz stepping back in Balance because she is important to mythology
even more than she, the others and even the audience are lead to
believe yet--She is in fact the true destined mate of Max---could be
why she was shot----maybe inside her in the Balance she sensed
something dangerous about this ritual. Remember at the end of ep
RIVERDOG, that Riverdog warns Liz, "be sure he has earned your
trust!" Almost like he was saying that Nasedo was not necessarily a
good guy! Riverdog said the symptoms took longer to show up in your
friend than Nasedo maybe because he is already on the path of
changing from his original roots because of his contact with Max
Isabel Maria Alex, and Liz!
I really think I am on to something here!

shapeshifter Junior Member Posts: 24
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-13-2000 09:49 AM
Re: the 4th alien: I thought one of the characters made a reference
to the White Room being the place where the alien on which they
experimented died...maybe Pierce? Does anyone have that line and who
said it? (or did I rewrite the script in my mind?)
If the 4th alien is still unaccounted for, and given Tess's ability
to create realistic illusions, she could possibly be the 4th alien
in disguise.
And on sci/fi vs romance:
I've read all of Jane Austen at least 1/2 dozen times each in the
last 25 years. As a young person I read the sci/fi classics, but
have found modern sci/fi boring. Roswell's blend of the two seems to
make it work. The two themes allow the viewer to back off from the
unlikely elements of each, alternately choosing different methods of
escape[ism]. *If this doesn't make sense, try reading today's
Doonesberry.*
The sci/fi of Roswell is like an oil painting rather than a
transparent watercolor. Each new element of composition or color is
balanced without worrying too much about the longterm technical
effects. Perhaps the short half life of any tv show lends itself to
this technique.
[This message has been edited by shapeshifter (edited 05-13-2000).]
[This message has been edited by shapeshifter (edited 05-13-2000).]
[This message has been edited by shapeshifter (edited 05-13-2000).]

GraceKel Member Posts: 490
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-13-2000 06:08 PM
Just bumping to get it to top again! Such an interesting thread!

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-13-2000 08:15 PM
GraceKel: I think it was LSS you're thinking of on the picture thing.
I just deleted a huge paragraph about the breakup in "Balance."
Don't even get me started on that one again.
Back to our topic here: looking back at Michael's "illness" in light
of what we've learned of his physiology, it seems a lot more
problematic now. If he is almost completely human and Nasedo is
totally alien, why would Michael suffer the same reaction to the
sweat as Nasedo, even it were delayed?

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-14-2000 03:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by shapeshifter:
Re: the 4th alien: I thought one of the characters made a
reference to the White Room being the place where the alien on
which they experimented died...maybe Pierce?
Hi shapeshifter, I'm pretty sure that Pierce said that the 4th alien
was held captive/observed in the White Room, but never said what had
happened to him or her. As I recall, Pierce seemed to emphasize the
"3 years" & "in this room" parts to Max in a "Abandon all hope ye
who enter . . ." manner. You can also check the transcript; it
should on Crashdown soon.

shapeshifter Junior Member Posts: 24
Registered: May 2000 posted 05-14-2000 08:16 AM
Hi JanetMG
Yes, I guess I'd given up hope on the transcript ever appearing.
That will be the ultimate answer to what I thought I heard about the
4th alien dying.
tepp et al, re: Balance:
I was thinking that Michael's human body was the reason he wasn't
immediately stricken with the illness, whereas Nasedo was. That
seemed to be an integral part of the script and a foreshadowing of
the differences between Nasedo and the others which would later be
revealed.

tepp Member Posts: 117
Registered: Mar 2000 posted 05-14-2000 09:27 AM
Again, two aliens were found alive at the crash site: one escaped
(Nasedo?), and one died in the white room after he was held captive
and studied for three years. That was Pierce's story.
Of course, we don't know if more aliens survived the crash but were
not found by the special unit or military. Someone buried the orb,
and presumably someone created the pods and "seeded" them. Liz's
visions in "SH" suggest that at least part of this was done by the
survivors of the crash, but we don't know if that was the only party
of aliens to make it to earth. There very well may have been others,
many others and over a very long period of time (how could the
aliens have quickly gathered the information and genetic material
needed to "create" our gang). We don't even know the time frame of
the gang's incubation. The process may have been set in motion long
after the crash by Nasedo or others.

JanetMG Member Posts: 192
Registered: Dec 1999 posted 05-15-2000 04:21 AM
Hi tepp, I just rewatched WR, and unless you saw a scene that was
edited out by my local affiliate (apparently some stations cut part
of the Nacedo finding MI&T scene), I must disagree�there is no
mention of what happened to the alien in captivity. I even watched
the closed captioning to make sure there wasn�t a line in there
(like the "red alert"s or Isabel�s "We love you" to Max).
The main discussion was in the first Max-Pierce face-to-face
discussion. After discussing the lab results & the dead agents, the
dialogue was:
Pierce: You know, I might not have been around in 1947, but I know
all about the crash. About the 4 aliens they captured�2 dead, 2
alive. I�ve spent my entire career studying the documentation,
especially the 3 years of observation they made on the 1 in
captivity. Right here! In this room.
Max: I thought you said there were 4.
Pierce: One of them escaped. Nasedo, isn�t that what you call him?
They then discussed the orbs & Pierce drugged Max.
The only thing Nasedo said about the issue was in the clipboard
scene�"I know this place intimately. I�ve already escaped it once."
He also said, "They�ve been studying us for fifty years."
Other Pierce-Max scenes mainly focused on the orbs. There was one
other mention of the other aliens in the �40s. In the scene where
Max grabs Pierce, Pierce talks about the serum and its effect on
neurotransmitters in the cerebral cortex. Pierce said, "Experiments
on the alien in the �40�s taught us that�s where most of your powers
come from." I�m not a brain surgeon, but I think it would be
difficult to do studies on the activity of neurotransmitters after
death. (In other words, while the 4th alien might have been killed
later, it�s unlikely the neurotransmitter tests killed him.)
Don�t get me wrong, I think the 4th alien may well have been killed,
but the writers didn�t say so explicitly and thus didn�t close off
the possibility that he or she is still alive. Further, there were
spots when it would have made sense to do so if the alien had been
killed. For example, Nasedo�s speech to Michael about why he killed
the agent (if he knows what happened), Pierce�s speech to Max about
taking him apart piece by piece (would have been more threatening if
you added "we�ve done it before" or "like we did to the alien we had
in captivity."); or even in the scene above (death is as threatening
or more threatening than 3 years of captivity in the WR). Pierce
wasn't terribly subtle. He seemed to use every available threat, but
not that one. Technically, there also was no explicit statement
about when the alien we know as Nasedo escaped. See Pierce�s
statement re Nasedo above�Pierce assumes it�s the one they call
Nasedo and Nasedo himself didn�t say when he escaped. (I think its
extremely likely that he is the alien that escaped shortly after
capture, but the writers left a tiny bit of wiggle room.)
Finally, while rewatching, I noticed a line that seems to support
Vicki�s atomic manipulation theory. When discussing the security
door, Nasedo said that it was made of depleted uranium
(plutonium?--didn�t write that part of the line down), which he
described as having "heavy atoms that we can�t manipulate." Unlike
MM&I, he didn't use the word "molecules."
[This message has been edited by JanetMG (edited 05-15-2000).]