(Originally posted by Zero):
Welcome to the ...continuing discussion of “Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology.” This is Thread #[11]!! :D We have been ...dissecting the Roswell episodes, one by one, finding “clues” to Liz’s importance and other relevant topics! Right now, past available threads are #1 at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/1lizMyth.htm , #9 at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizImportanceToAlienMythologyThread9.htm and #10 at http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/000543.html . So you are welcome to join the discussion mid-stream if you are new, and don’t worry about repeated discussions!

The following is a summary of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the original threads. If possible, I highly recommend that if you want to read an excellent in-depth analysis of how Liz might fit into the alien mythology and her importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz you spend the time to read the original threads...

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From the first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten, Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was you!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is – maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet, or a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor on Earth, or was Liz the original “4th” podster who “hatched” early and was humanized by her human parents, or was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow was separated from the group, or could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence that "connects" her to Max – but that the connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers. Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her birth parents, does she have a connection to the Indians, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble? – and how this plays into the connection with Max. Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her?

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess (aka hamster or gerbil – you pick) , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from. The use of that DNA could have totally altered the “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators. Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Are those visions Max’s alien being’s memories, or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny.

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young bride has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? Though many seem to accept that it probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences?), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! )

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” :D ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, etc.). She is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we find out in Destiny is the former leader of his people. Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? We will have to wait for Season 2, but many have expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz is capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. Will she be the one able to SEE the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom.

Each of Liz’s visions has been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize all the thoughts here. Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen a (the?) trip through a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source internal to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was it intentional?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect)?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library) and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence – we think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful!

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow! Could the DNA from the girl have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! hummmm! :eyespin:

Liz’s ability to “see” into Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole, the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). Could it be that the four squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? The numbers 14 and 104 seem to pop up often – why? Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the podsquad? Or are they just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? :facespin: We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. Any connection?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dot" in the series of boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that are “flashed” in the promos – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps for us to analyze!

Many have wondered if the "bad" aliens might also be from the podsquad's planet, just part of a civil war - therefore, having similar characteristics and powers to Harding's type of alien. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could the pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash, maybe later on? Could other pods have been planted at other times? Could there be more than one set of podsters that will show up later? Clones? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the bad aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the bad and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? And what have they been up to on these visits?

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the podsquad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow!

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding has done nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he is a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the podsquad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves and what he has been up to? There are so many questions he could answer for the podsters! Will the real Ed Harding please stand up?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands.

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across:
1911 - James Atherton born in TN
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1/15/1943 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disk-like objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
9/17/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm - Podsquad sets off communicators; evil aliens' beepers go off!

I know I have NOT covered everything, but that would be impossible and I’d never do anyone justice! There is lots of speculation about Pierce and other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! :liz: I'm trying to sum up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max :max: in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX :liz: / :max: CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, and that together Max and Liz make a incredible force to reckon with!!

A couple of general “rules” – No Spoilers, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired.

Zero

Agent Shapeshifter here: One of the main quandry's of the last thread regarding Liz was Max's line to her in Ask Not:
quote:So just know this...I'm coming for you, Liz.

Did anyone figure out what that gross bloody thing is? I was thinking it was a cow too, but it probably is something else. Maybe Max remembering his death as his former self.

I think what Max means by that quote is that he is going to let her do what she needs to do and he is going to do what he needs to do. Because right now she is distant and he is going to clear the way to get to her. I guess that is a kinda of obvious observation.

Did anyone else have any comments on whether Michael and Isabels essence coudl have been mistakenly put into the wrong gendered hybrid. 47 commented I was just wondering what the rest of you thought. Cause I know that something is wrong w/these guys.

Thanks.

And what is up w/Isabel's B-day. I guess Max and her aren't twins after all. OR are they fast forwarding months ahead. Because we know his B-date as March, right? I know they were the same age though, because they both have said they were around six years old when they came out of the pods and have lived w/the Evans for 10 years as of last season.

I've been lurking around this thread for a couple of weeks now, and finally decided to take a step from behind the tree.

Anyway, I know how everyone has been pointing out that the line Maria tells Max in AN, you know, the one about following his heart. And I've seen how everyone's been comparing this to what GC tells Liz in LN. But that is actually the third time the following your heart theme has been mentioned in Roswell.

In TLV, after Liz sees Max kiss T***, Maria follows her up to her room to comfort her after Michael tells her too the next day. Anyways she mentions to Liz that:

"I don't know if Max is lying or what, Liz, I just... I know that you usually go with your heart, so..."

I don't know if that's relevant or not. Oh well.

Hey, my alter ego in California-- I just checked the calendar and May 14th of 2000 was Mother's day. Can't think of a better day for the podster's to get mommogram myself.

Liz Parker is very "important" to the alien mythology - why? Because of her unworldly connection to Max.

It is quite interesting from the other threads that maybe Liz as a new born was placed as "baby Parker" instead of their natural born child.

DeeDee

In S&B Maria speaks of Liz as "visiting some aunt in Florida". Being a RBI agent in training I heard, “visiting Somenton Florida“. This audio hallucination prompted me to dive head first into the nearest Atlas looking for a town in northeastern Florida. My success was less than limited. So, I engaged the assistances of a veteran RBI agent of the Grace Kell school of forensic mediocrity. Without question, 47born launched her boat on what has now become the internet ocean and discovered a town named “Sumatra”. Although Maria was not naming a town the discovery was not insignificant. Why you wonder? Well, if you draw a line from Sumatra to Gulf Breeze it passes very close to Panama City and through the small suburb of “PARKER” just 97 miles (line of sight) from Gulf Breeze. There is nothing but the Gulf of Mexico between it and the well-documented UFO port of call. Roswell may not be the only hot bed of alien/human hybridization.

In S&B Maria speaks of Liz as "visiting some aunt in Florida". Being a RBI agent in training I heard, “visiting Somenton Florida“. This audio hallucination prompted me to dive head first into the nearest Atlas looking for a town in northeastern Florida. My success was less than limited. So, I engaged the assistances of a veteran RBI agent of the Grace Kell school of forensic mediocrity. Without question, 47born launched her boat on what has now become the internet ocean and discovered a town named “Sumatra”. Although Maria was not naming a town the discovery was not insignificant. Why you wonder? Well, if you draw a line from Sumatra to Gulf Breeze it passes very close to Panama City and through the small suburb of “PARKER” just 97 miles (line of sight) from Gulf Breeze. There is nothing but the Gulf of Mexico between it and the well-documented UFO port of call. Roswell may not be the only hot bed of alien/human hybridization.

47born: I was also having a hard time understanding what Maria said, but I just forgot about it, great catch.
I have been defending Liz all over this board. The clueless believe she is being cold and selfish. Are they watching the same show we are? They think Liz/Shiri could be taken off the show and their would be no repercussions. I try to explain the clues that we have found that prove just how important Liz is, and they say we make it up to are liking. Talk about clueless and you guessed it they like Tess and they say she is cool. What a scary world we live in. Sorry I just needed to vent. I just think they are really missing out on what makes Roswell special and that is "LIZ."

Evid

DeeDee

Oh-- Why Max and company couldn't heal Harding with the stones. I definately think it's because Liz was abscent. (Ok, not a new idea granted.) Here's all the major healings Max does with Liz present.

1) Liz's gunshot
2) Claudia (technically not a real healing)
3) Kyle's gunshot

Now, on 2 it really seemed the Max tried to make a connection for GC but could not. It is only after Liz and Max look at one another that GC appears. Together, they were able to bring GC back for a brief visit. I wonder what would have happened to Nasedo if Liz was present in the pod chamber. They did not have the 4+1 formula going.

Melodious1: I was reading from thread #9 about your idea of Nasedo/Harding being Liz's dad. EWWWW!!! Harding had the hots for Liz in TLV and MTTM!

DreamDancer your idea about May 14 continuing the 5 all important number I think is a good one however I want someone to explain how they went back in time to get their MOTHER's Message didn't the eppy 4 Square happen b4 Destiny---yes it did well Max CLEARLY told Liz to punch in TODAYS DATE looking up the V CONSTELLATION and she punched in MAY 27,2000(this predated DESTINY'S MOMMYGRAM right?) So how did they get mommys message on May 14th?

Shapeshifter and QFANNY do you get this quandry now?

QFANNY I do believe it is quite possible that LIZ's absense had everything to do with Nasedo/Harding not getting healed.

47Born very interesting information you dug up on the FLORIDA bit.

Now can someone comment on the NORIEGA info that EVID found when Kyle called Nasedo NORIEGA--doesn't anyone else think they were trying to tell us something?

One more thing I was thinking about when Tess was walking with Max and she says Nasedo taught me not to get caught up in this, its not really who I am, she goes on to say SHE's NOT HUMAN------well didn;t the mommygram say they were mixed with human genetic materials so that they could become human? Or am I screwing this up?

EVID-I know what you mean I often wonder what show others are watching LOL!!!!

btw Q, I know this isn't exactly a specific "Max healing", but Liz was also present -of course- during Michael's healing in BALANCE. I really think it was because of her 'stepping into the circle' alone (w/out a healing stone mind you, just as she was present in Harding's first podster healing -"Destiny"- w/out a stone)... that was the key in the success of Mike's healing. I know that's not anything new, but I strongly agree with all who've pondered this.

quote:Melodious1: I was reading from thread #9 about your idea of Nasedo/Harding being Liz's dad. EWWWW!!! Harding had the hots for Liz in TLV and MTTM!

I suppose I'm corrupted by a friend... an amiga was toying with the idea of writing a fic where Harding had been sexually abusing Tess all her life! Talk about EWWWW! But of course, if Harding was Liz's real father by some really twisted circumstance; he probably had no idea he was *having the hots* for his own offspring! Honestly though, would Harding really have not flirted with her even if he did know? Can you tell how high an opinion I still have of Harding? No respect for the dead!

Melodious

Evid: I agree with you, Liz is important to the pod squad and the show. We have seen the shots of what looks like T*** being beaten and if that is what happens, all I can say is "YES!!"

in "ask not" isabel refers to 5/14 as "the day we got the message from our mother," so i think we're supposed to just accept it as accurate. if you consider the discrepancy a blooper, i'd say 4S was wrong. more than likely though, the writers probably thought they'd let it slide by and no one would really notice or care. HAH!!!

Another thought about the Mamogram: Since it is only a message, how do we know whom she is referring to. My son she says: she could be referring to Michael for all we know. Her son's young bride: is it Tess, Isabel (just because they were raised as brother and sister doesn't mean that that's what they were as aliens) or Liz??

If Liz is a hybrid alien, why doesn't she remember any of it. Max and Iz knew they were different right from the start, they remember coming out of the cave. Liz doesn't. Or is it a repressed memory. Will it come back to her. Or is she really just human and we are reading too much into her character. The fact that she feels that she is changing: well anybody that comes back from near death, falls totally in love with someone, find out there are aliens, gets flashes when kissing would be a changed person. You don't go through so much emotions without it changing your outlook on life and changing who you will become from that point on.

evans

Yes, czech please,
(BTW, I just love the way your name fits in )
That really settles it. It's a blooper, no doubt based on the air date rather than the script. The only way I see time travel working here is if the time travel involved an amnesia affect--which would make a really cool plot tool, but not one I think they will use here.

And on the issue of the podPeople being human or not: I think it's a matter of what is meant by "I." Some of the psych majors in our group could probably do this justice with discussion of the id, ego, and super ego, but in basic Roswellian terms, it seems to depend upon if "I" is the essence alone or the essence + identity at present.

Liz feels that she's changing physically. Is it possible that Max in healing her or in the reverse connection subconsciously prepared her body to become his mate in some sort of evolution of species.

Syndee

Liz feels that she's changing physically. Is it possible that Max in healing her or in the reverse connection subconsciously prepared her body to become his mate in some sort of evolution of species.

Syndee

Yes, but let's not forget that Max knew Liz was "the one" since he first saw her.

P.S. Hey everyone! You can get "Avatars" (upload your own image) after ***only*** 500 posts now. Note: mine is 32 x34 pixels (just for reference). Click on "profile" to do it. And it won't appear until you make a new post.

Only another day until some more clues!

Zero

I'm going to miss bullwinkle Lil MaGill! But I love that WW symbol. Very kewl!

Amaryl

evans, I really like your theory. Maybe each of the enemy (Skins?) is responsible for one of the (our RBI theory) five and their "device" is attuned for that specific being. That explains why the device didn't react around Max and it also supports the 1+4 theory.

As for the Momogram date snafu, I think the writers just thought that Mother's Day would be a good day to date the Momogram but had forgotten (or choose to ignore) that they had dated 4S as occuring on or around May 27! I also think that May being the 5th month and 14 being 1+4 is NOT a coincidence!

HLA

Do you really think the writers have thought this much about the show???

I mean, everyone has some terrific ideas/theories and everything makes so much sense. But everything that I have read over the weekend, here, on the spoiler thread, and WB's pages, do we really think that the writers have put this much energy into thinking what we are thinking???

That's so frustrating! Don't they know we disect EVERYTHING in these eppy's!?

Do you really think the writers have thought this much about the show???

I mean, everyone has some terrific ideas/theories and everything makes so much sense. But everything that I have read over the weekend, here, on the spoiler thread, and WB's pages, do we really think that the writers have put this much energy into thinking what we are thinking???

If they don't, they should! After all they're the ones getting paid!

Now on to the rest of what I have to say... I stated this before when Evans posted something about evil aliens having the beepers, but since then, others have said that the beepers belong to EA's... I'm thinking and I can't come up with a single known EA that had one of those beepers. The only people we know have them are Brody (thought by some to be and EA, but that is as yet unproven)... and Howie D. And in fact, the only EA that we have confirmed is Courtney... as of yet, we have not seen her with a beeper at all! In Destiny, when the beepers went off, they went off in neighborhoods with nice looking houses, etc. I got the impression that they were friendly aliens... usually, when a TV show has something bad in store, you get the impression of it just from the way something is filmed or portrayed. The somewhat omminous words of Howie D. "It has begun." could be the words of an EA, but couldn't they also be the words of a war hardened man, who was ready for the fight of his life? Maybe I'm blowing things out of proportion here, but I don't think the Beepers mean EA's are around. I thought the beepers would be a signal to the other Aliens exiled on Earth that the leaders had been found, and to prepare for whatever was instore.

Miss Roswell, I too have wondered if the writers ever actually ponder their show's story line and mythology as much as we all do here. Sometimes it seems that they just want to put as many little things in there as they can for us to find, then other times it seems like there's nothing. No answers, only more questions. I truely don't know, but I would like some questions answered... Ron or any of the other writer's... are you reading this? lol

Okay, enough of me. Agent Rox over and out!

I do believe that the writers put this much effort into the scripts. I am also a fan of Buffy and Angel and I know that Joss, the god, focuses heavily on leaving hints by props and carefully worded phrases. So I do think that they think heavily on the meaning of everything, lol who knows...they could be lurkers on these bbs. Sorry, don't mean to get anyone paranoid. lol

Oh, evans...I like your idea, but I just rewatched Ask Not yesterday. Did anyone else notice the way that Brody was holding the alien deivce with Max and then with Micheal? With Max, he was rubbing it, just getting the feel for it. But when it went off with Michael in the room, he was holding flat on his hand like a compuss, like he was searching for something. Maybe that's why it went off. I don't know...just my own ramblings...stopping now.

Now on to the rest of what I have to say... I stated this before when Evans posted something about evil aliens having the beepers, but since then, others have said that the beepers belong to EA's... I'm thinking and I can't come up with a single known EA that had one of those beepers. The only people we know have them are Brody (thought by some to be and EA, but that is as yet unproven)... and Howie D. And in fact, the only EA that we have confirmed is Courtney... as of yet, we have not seen her with a beeper at all! In Destiny, when the beepers went off, they went off in neighborhoods with nice looking houses, etc. I got the impression that they were friendly aliens... usually, when a TV show has something bad in store, you get the impression of it just from the way something is filmed or portrayed. The somewhat omminous words of Howie D. "It has begun." could be the words of an EA, but couldn't they also be the words of a war hardened man, who was ready for the fight of his life? Maybe I'm blowing things out of proportion here, but I don't think the Beepers mean EA's are around. I thought the beepers would be a signal to the other Aliens exiled on Earth that the leaders had been found, and to prepare for whatever was instore.

Miss Roswell, I too have wondered if the writers ever actually ponder their show's story line and mythology as much as we all do here. Sometimes it seems that they just want to put as many little things in there as they can for us to find, then other times it seems like there's nothing. No answers, only more questions. I truely don't know, but I would like some questions answered... Ron or any of the other writer's... are you reading this? lol

Okay, enough of me. Agent Rox over and out!

I couldn't have said it better myself. Well, maybe I could, but why bother? You did such a fab-OO job at it!

I mean, everyone has some terrific ideas/theories and everything makes so much sense. But everything that I have read over the weekend, here, on the spoiler thread,
and WB's pages, do we really think that the writers have put this much energy into thinking what we are thinking???[QUOTE]

For the past ten minutes I've been looking for an article (I think it was on
'Crashdown.com') but I can't find it. Oh well. Anyway, it was written by someone who had recently talked to Jason Katims. S/He asked JK why Liz could get flashes but Maria and Alex didn't seem able to. When S/He asked if it was because Max had 'changed' her, if they had made a connection that allowed Liz to see inside of him, JK said something like, "Wow, you guys have thought about this a lot more then I have." I got the impression that the writers came up with an idea but didn't think it was important enough to explain. How wrong they were!

Okay,Steph, dreamdancer, Roswool & everyone,
I like the idea of Tess conspiring with the EAs to get Max. It seems fitting for a teen to make a bad choice because of lack of experience. I also like the idea of the Howie D crew being GAs. Good points on that one.

I'm remembering in Ask NOt when Tess tells Kyle that there are only 3 other people in the world like her and how lonely she is. Well, if the GAs come to Roswell, then she'd be inclined to shine on the EAs and return to the GAs. But this assumes a Good/Bad scenario, and I don't think the writers are going to make it that simple. So far they've had Valenti, Tess, Kyle, and Nasedo develop into characters that are neither totally good or evil.

We all believe that Nacedo was the 'Royal Protector', and that the Skins are the Pod Squad's enemies. Nacedo told us so. But so many things Nacedo has said do not make sense. Such as:
In TLV, he is angry with Tess for bringing Isabel home.
In M2M, he again becomes angry with Tess for bringing the other three to the Pod Chamber. He also accuses her having more loyalty to the three of them than him.

Why should this be? If they are the Royal 4, if his job to protect them and if Tess is supposed to be Max's long lost bride, why should Nacedo be surprised that Tess feels more loyalty to them? Why should be become angry that Tess brings the very people he is supposed to protect to him?

Because he was not who he said he was, and was afraid that until Max is with Tess, body and soul, he will not fall under his 'spell'.

Also, in S&B, he claims to have been diddling CW for a while, yet after their tryst while M & L search the office, she is surprised by his new found technique. What? She only just noticed? Scripting, or lies?

What if the Podsters came from the Skins (or are allies of), and the SSs are the enemy. This could fit, as Liz has seen the evil within Nacedo. So what is his game? It cannot simply be the death of the Royal 4. That could have been achieved easily, at any time. I think it's more a 'Control' type of deal. However, he needed help, and the only way to summon help was to use the orbs to send out the signal. Problem. Only one Orb is in Max's possesion. Solution. Stage a situation where Max is captured by the FBI. Then, lead the others in rescue bid. Obtain both Orbs, and the gratitude and trust of the podsters. On the way, if Liz dies, then great. The trouble is, he found out how close Max and Liz were, and her death would further alienate Tess. But why would Nacedo remain behind after the rescue? Because he wanted to take over the FBI special unit, to obtain information about possible sightings of Skins? Would they really send the Royal 4 without backup? The only problem was that it eventually became Max's idea, and if Nacedo did not disband the special unit, Max might think something was up.

The beginning? Suppose that on the planet Twilo, they have mastered the art of reincarnation. When a person dies, their ‘essence’, or ‘spirit’ is transferred into a cloned body, incubated in pods, and have their memories from their past lives 'downloaded' to them. They are 'born' as the same person they were before.

After an act of treachery, Michael, Tess and Isabel are slain. Max is alive, but barely. He realises they have no chance as things stand, and need something extra to defeat their enemies. He comes up with the plan of sending them as Genetically engineered humans, to Earth, to obtain this 'Factor X'. Ship despatched, human's abducted, DNA harvested, etc. New ‘bodies’ are engineered, and are genetically coded to recognise the image of their mate, extracted from their DNA. Ship crashes on approach to earth(treachery by Nacedo who Shape Shifts as member of crew). Survivors (including Nacedo) set up pod chamber, and insert the Royal essences into clones in the Pods , including Max's whose life finally ended in crash. Return to crash site, hide what artefacts they can before authorities arrive.

Years later, Nacedo returns to check on Pod, to find that memory load has failed. Podsters are different people now. He is in despair because this means his plan of ruling through Royal 4 won't work. Then he discovers that the Bride is dead. He sees a slim window of opportunity. Replace the bride, let her feed them their memories. Maybe even make up a few. Nacedo, knowing he needs to use the same DNA searches for the original doner. He finds that she has died, but has left a daughter. Eventually, he finds the daughter, Shiela Hubble. The attempt to Harvest her DNA fails as she dies in the attempt. Everett Hubble's return interupts him, so he flees with no DNA. Rather than face failure, he creates a new Pod using DNA that he harvested from another woman ( CW? ). He uses his advanced technology to improve the surrogate Tess's mind, so she will have powers and capabilities that the others will have, plus one (Mind Warp) that will help lure Max. He also manages to plug in some of the memories that Tess was supposed to have.

He returned to the pod chamber at the designated time to find that the other three had already hatched. He took Tess, and continued her training so that one day, he would control Max through his bride.

While doing some field work for a college project, CG was in the desert the night of the Crash. Thinking it was a plane crash, she rushed to offer what assistance she could. She is horrified at what she finds, but flees before the authorities arrive. She has a 'feeling' that she should not be found there. She feels drawn to a small clump of hills, where she discovers a seriously injured Alien. He tells her the story, including how he knew that the Pod for the bride was dead, has kept the brides essence in its container, and how he needs her help. CG looks similar to the bride's original donor. As GC nurses the alien to health, he tells her of their world, etc, and of the love between Max and his bride.

Together they decide that the best course of action would be for the alien to harvest one of GC's eggs, implant the essence, and place the now fertilised egg into her womb. This is not ideal, as the child would not be the same as the other three, 100 % human, but with an Alien spirit. The main problem is how to time it right. The alien says he will know, by reading the stars. By the time the signs are right, GC is too old to successfully carry the baby to term, so GC suggests they still harvest her egg, but place it into the womb of her daughter in law, who is barren. So Liz is technically GC's daughter, which explains a lot. Because Max emerges from the Pod, without his bride, there is a 'hole' inside him. When he sees Liz, there is a faint recognition. Because of his situation, he watches from afar. Then there is an argument that gets out of hand .....

The rest is Roswell

Just some of my misguided thoughts.
WR.

I think if we come up w/all these ideas and theorie then the writers probably do too. I can't think of why they would have wanted to change the date on the orbs.

Well hopefully they will explain how it is Isabels B-day tonight. I think a lot of stuff was left unsaid because they weren't sure if they would get another season.

We all believe that Nacedo was the 'Royal Protector', and that the Skins are the Pod Squad's enemies. Nacedo told us so. But so many things Nacedo has said do not make sense. Such as:
In TLV, he is angry with Tess for bringing Isabel home.
In M2M, he again becomes angry with Tess for bringing the other three to the Pod Chamber. He also accuses her having more loyalty to the three of them than him.

Why should this be? If they are the Royal 4, if his job to protect them and if Tess is supposed to be Max's long lost bride, why should Nacedo be surprised that Tess feels more loyalty to them? Why should be become angry that Tess brings the very people he is supposed to protect to him?

Because he was not who he said he was, and was afraid that until Max is with Tess, body and soul, he will not fall under his 'spell'.

Also, in S&B, he claims to have been diddling CW for a while, yet after their tryst while M & L search the office, she is surprised by his new found technique. What? She only just noticed? Scripting, or lies?

What if the Podsters came from the Skins (or are allies of), and the SSs are the enemy. This could fit, as Liz has seen the evil within Nacedo. So what is his game? It cannot simply be the death of the Royal 4. That could have been achieved easily, at any time. I think it's more a 'Control' type of deal. However, he needed help, and the only way to summon help was to use the orbs to send out the signal. Problem. Only one Orb is in Max's possesion. Solution. Stage a situation where Max is captured by the FBI. Then, lead the others in rescue bid. Obtain both Orbs, and the gratitude and trust of the podsters. On the way, if Liz dies, then great. The trouble is, he found out how close Max and Liz were, and her death would further alienate Tess. But why would Nacedo remain behind after the rescue? Because he wanted to take over the FBI special unit, to obtain information about possible sightings of Skins? Would they really send the Royal 4 without backup? The only problem was that it eventually became Max's idea, and if Nacedo did not disband the special unit, Max might think something was up.

The beginning? Suppose that on the planet Twilo, they have mastered the art of reincarnation. When a person dies, their ‘essence’, or ‘spirit’ is transferred into a cloned body, incubated in pods, and have their memories from their past lives 'downloaded' to them. They are 'born' as the same person they were before.

After an act of treachery, Michael, Tess and Isabel are slain. Max is alive, but barely. He realises they have no chance as things stand, and need something extra to defeat their enemies. He comes up with the plan of sending them as Genetically engineered humans, to Earth, to obtain this 'Factor X'. Ship despatched, human's abducted, DNA harvested, etc. New ‘bodies’ are engineered, and are genetically coded to recognise the image of their mate, extracted from their DNA. Ship crashes on approach to earth(treachery by Nacedo who Shape Shifts as member of crew). Survivors (including Nacedo) set up pod chamber, and insert the Royal essences into clones in the Pods , including Max's whose life finally ended in crash. Return to crash site, hide what artefacts they can before authorities arrive.

Years later, Nacedo returns to check on Pod, to find that memory load has failed. Podsters are different people now. He is in despair because this means his plan of ruling through Royal 4 won't work. Then he discovers that the Bride is dead. He sees a slim window of opportunity. Replace the bride, let her feed them their memories. Maybe even make up a few. Nacedo, knowing he needs to use the same DNA searches for the original doner. He finds that she has died, but has left a daughter. Eventually, he finds the daughter, Shiela Hubble. The attempt to Harvest her DNA fails as she dies in the attempt. Everett Hubble's return interupts him, so he flees with no DNA. Rather than face failure, he creates a new Pod using DNA that he harvested from another woman ( CW? ). He uses his advanced technology to improve the surrogate Tess's mind, so she will have powers and capabilities that the others will have, plus one (Mind Warp) that will help lure Max. He also manages to plug in some of the memories that Tess was supposed to have.

He returned to the pod chamber at the designated time to find that the other three had already hatched. He took Tess, and continued her training so that one day, he would control Max through his bride.

While doing some field work for a college project, CG was in the desert the night of the Crash. Thinking it was a plane crash, she rushed to offer what assistance she could. She is horrified at what she finds, but flees before the authorities arrive. She has a 'feeling' that she should not be found there. She feels drawn to a small clump of hills, where she discovers a seriously injured Alien. He tells her the story, including how he knew that the Pod for the bride was dead, has kept the brides essence in its container, and how he needs her help. CG looks similar to the bride's original donor. As GC nurses the alien to health, he tells her of their world, etc, and of the love between Max and his bride.

Together they decide that the best course of action would be for the alien to harvest one of GC's eggs, implant the essence, and place the now fertilised egg into her womb. This is not ideal, as the child would not be the same as the other three, 100 % human, but with an Alien spirit. The main problem is how to time it right. The alien says he will know, by reading the stars. By the time the signs are right, GC is too old to successfully carry the baby to term, so GC suggests they still harvest her egg, but place it into the womb of her daughter in law, who is barren. So Liz is technically GC's daughter, which explains a lot. Because Max emerges from the Pod, without his bride, there is a 'hole' inside him. When he sees Liz, there is a faint recognition. Because of his situation, he watches from afar. Then there is an argument that gets out of hand .....

The rest is Roswell

Just some of my misguided thoughts.
WR.

Wow - something to think about!!!

This seemed like the only logical reason for kidnapping Liz (to bate Max). From everything I've read about the writers wanting to preserve the mythology thus far, I think this is still true. I'm just not sure that they will refer to it anymore or use it in an overt way.

And Qfanny,
heads up! I'm passing you the orb for your personal icon. Catch!

Okay, what if Tic Tac got Sheila Hubble pregant and Liz is their daughter, which would explain why Liz is half alien. And I know that people are saying well that would make Liz older, not if she was put into some kind of pod like Max/Michael/Isabel. So it is possible that Liz is Sheila's daughter.

Do you think Brody killed Harding? I know someone mentioned that the shape of the little thingy was the same shape that was on Harding's chest.

Do you really think the writers have thought this much about the show???

I mean, everyone has some terrific ideas/theories and everything makes so much sense. But everything that I have read over the weekend, here, on the spoiler thread, and WB's pages, do we really think that the writers have put this much energy into thinking what we are thinking???

Miss Roswell - Welcome! Many of us wonder the same thing, but are convinced that clues are being left for us to find. (maybe others have responded about this?) There are just tooooooo many clues for them all to be coincidences - but I'm sure they didn't realize we would be analyzing each episode to the extent that we do. The writers should consider it a compliment!

Dreamdancer and everyone else - thanks for the welcome back, and welcome to all the newbies!! How great!!

Zero

Just want to reassure everyone - especially Grace Kel - that as long as I "manage" (or whatever it is I do with) this thread - It will continue to have the same title and focus, because that is where my primary interest falls - Liz's importance to the alien mythology. But all discussions that are somehow connected to this - including loose connections - are welcome!

Zero

Everyone here is theory that I do not like, but I keep thinking over it and I find it so creepy I'm intrigued. When I was watching Ask Not, and we got the flashbacks from Max (BEM) we constantly saw the shooting at the Crashdown. Two gun men fighting, Liz being shot. Ask Not showed a lot of Max/Michael squabbles. I was trying to figure out why Max would be remembering this scene when approaching Brody's office door. I was remembering the dialog of the pilot. The lines spoken right before Liz got shot:

"More Coffee?"
"No Get Out of Here"
"Hmph"

I remembered the tone in which the shooter said, "No Get out of Here" to Maria. I realized that it sounded exactly like Michael. (Now putting those jumping shoes one for a grande jete.) What if Max was remembering a future event and past event when approaching Brody's door? What if Max and Michael were the shooters? With the May 14th Mommogram message conflicting with the 4S date of May 27th and these ever present time travel references, what if Max and Michael had to go thru time and alter it so Max could admit what he is to Liz?

The only thing that doesn't seem to fit is the line of "We have to get rid of her." It seemed to me in Pilot that the shooters had two different conversations going on. One was about money... the other was about a girl... What if HER is TESS! And bringing Liz into the picture was the only way they could alter time so that Max would not be attracted to Tess!

I still think this theory is rather scary!!! So what do you all think?

I caught it! I don't come from football country for nothing! LOL I have a few more posts to make before I can use it though.

shanns~Only Time Will Tell

Okay, what if Tic Tac got Sheila Hubble pregant and Liz is their daughter, which would explain why Liz is half alien. And I know that people are saying well that would make Liz older, not if she was put into some kind of pod like Max/Michael/Isabel. So it is possible that Liz is Sheila's daughter.

Do you think Brody killed Harding? I know someone mentioned that the shape of the little thingy was the same shape that was on Harding's chest.

I was the one that notice the "star" brand on Harding's chest matched the beeper when it goes off - it makes a star when going really fast. So, I speculated it might have been used to suck all the life force out of Harding. I also am not convinced that Harding is Nasedo - it is yet to be proven, and there are too many holes plus Tic Tac out there! The whole alien abduction line could play into a human being impregnated out eggs used, though that sounds a bit too much like an "X-files" storyline.

Got to go run in the pouring down rain with my kids - got to love the NW, but can hardly wait to find out WHO it is that Is says "It's you!" to. Courtney? It seems too obvious. I can't wait!! MORE CLUES!!

Zero

shanns~Only Time Will Tell

But this would fit a time travel motiff! If Max and Michael could travel back into time, then they could be at the Crashdown as shooters as adults and as teenagers.

quote:Originally posted by Qfanny:
Why Max and company couldn't heal Harding with the stones. I definately think it's because Liz was absent...

Oh my gosh, Qfanny! Great minds must think alike. I was thinking that just yesterday while watching "Ask Not". Hmm...

...

"ISABEL: Brody said the device just went off in his hand. It send out a pulse without warning, so I think it was because Michael was near, but I'm not sure.

ALEX: But why would it react to Michael and not to you?"

When I heard these 2 lines, sirens went off in my head... what if Michael and/or Tess are different kinds of aliens than Max/Isabel? I know this has been covered before, but this seems to be substantial evidence. Then again, maybe I'm just looking too hard.

Amber

Thank you Shapeshifter for sapeshifting into Zero and starting the new thread!

Evid- I like the way you think. I'm learning so much on this thread. I think your Indian mythology story plays in beautifuly with our dream couple and the 14=hand theory. I'll have to look for the costellation of the hand when the clouds leave the NY sky. Orion is one constellation I actually know how to find.
Evid are you serious there are those who want Liz gone?? NOOOOO! I rerely wander from this board (lack of time). I can't believe they don't see what we see!

47 born- Very cool info about Sumatra Florida. I must admit I had a hard time with what Maria said (it must be her new teeth LOL). I had to look it up on the transcripts.

About the date May 27- that was a Saturday. This original date therefore must be wrong, they wouldn't have been in school on a Saturday. It also couldn't have been the 7th as someone suggested because that was a Sunday, again no school. I think they just made a boo boo. Does anyone konw how to treat a constellation for certain dates. If so we could see if Venus lined up with Aries to form the V constellation on a date earlier then the 27th.

GraceKel- as I'm sure you would know I too was wondering about the "Noriega" reference. I thought - a clue, a clue! My thoughts, maybe Harding wasn't the good guy (I have my reservations about him anyway) that he wanted the gang to think he was. I mean what do we really know about him? He shows up at the pod chamber and retrieves Tess (if that's even true) and were suposed to think he's on their side because of that? Well, "this fish doesnt swallow that bait".

I have said right along that I thought Howie D and the other beeper holders might be good guys, allies to our gang.

WR- Very nice! You captured my attention. I like the way your theory explains away many things. You obviously put a lot of thought into this. Excellent work Agent WR!

Though I don't understand why Isabel is having a Birthday party tonight I'm glad that we're all invited! What do you get for an alien who seams to have everything? LOL

Starstruck

Roswell Office
1717 West Second Street
Suite 100
Roswell, NM 88201

If there are aliens in Roswell, this is the guy that would KNOW about it!!!

Let's all mail Liz some letters to this address now that we know that the office is a real fixture in Roswell.

Here's his mug shoot, courtsey of http://www.house.gov/skeen/biography.htm

(Screencap used for purpose of academic discussion)

Belongs to these House Committees:
Committee on Appropriations

Appropriations Subcommittee Assignments:

· Chairman, Subcommittee on Agriculture, Rural Development, FDA & Related Agencies
· Subcommittee on Interior
· Subcommittee on Defense

Ok, now for something more serious. As you know, I've been wondering about Whitaker's comment about, "Politics is the reason why you sleep with me in the first place." She said to Pierce. If Whitaker has all the same committee assignments as the REAL Congressman, then the subcommitte for defense could be why Pierce needed to sleep with her.

RBI AGENT QFANNY~~

----------------
Applesaucer, Dreamgirl,
Applesaucer, Catfighter, R.B.I.

Did you guys read that article from EW. We need to continue to recrute newbies to the show. I don't know about you, but I would like to see how it all works out and not be left w/these unanswered question.

I don't know if having Liz there when healing does anything, but now it seems it maybe true since there have been so many occurances so far. If aliens have been among us for a long time. Her family could be descendants of aliens from, I don't know the 1700's or something. Her genes could have adapted to be human through evolution of some sort. So there wouldn't be any trace of aliens in her. I have read a few books who try to say that the ancient Druids were supposedly aliens, because of there practices and the relects left behind. They died out, but descendants are always around. Maybe all Liz needed was a little push.

Never spite a woman in a red dress!

Never spite a woman in a red dress!

Or a three-eyed green BEM!
Seriously, I've grown accustomed to your icon - do keep it!

As for Liz: she's (unwittingly) betrayed Tess to an enemy, thus endangering all the podsters. Oops. Do you suppose she'll try to make nice with Tess now? And, as I've posted elsewhere, wouldn't it be a hoot if Tess was a normal, insignificant BEM from a normal, insignificant small town - not unlike someone else?

Did it seem a bit odd to you guys how eager CW was to meet Liz's parents?

Scary odd.

Too bad Liz didn't try Michael's cake.

I personally believe that Liz is, for the most part a "normal" human, at least not alien or half alien. It seems to me that she gets flashes because she is human. Bere with me. In TWR, Necado tells Michael that their powers are human, they have just been genetically engineered to be ahead of the rest of the human race. Well, if that is so, then when Max healed Liz and, more importantly, initiated the reverse conection, he might have "stretched" Liz's mind so that she could start to develope her true potential. After all, don't scientists say that we only use 10% of our minds anyway?

Also, this is one of my own personal fantasies and doesn't have any references in the show, I think that the podsquad's destinies aren't what they are being told they are by the momagram. What I mean is that what the Momogram said about their destinies, especially in relation to each other, was based on an old prophacy from the old planet. You know how in fantasy books, the hero is often fortold of by a prophacy that usually doesn't mean what it first appears to say. Suppose that the podsquad's "destiny", especially the relationship part, is part of a prophacy that has been misinterpreted. Anyway thats my own personal theory that really has no relevance to the show.

Also on the subject of Tess, not to defend her or anything ( I really don't like her), but I think that the only reason that she is so after Max is because she has been brought up to believe that. Necado taught her that she couldn't be involved with humans and he wasn't exactly the most compainable guy so she is lonely and has been gearing up her whole life for this "meaningful relationship" only to find that this guy who she has always been taught was meant for her and her alone, wants nothing to do with. Don't get me wrong, I think she is coniving and I don't like her.

Sorry for such a long post, but one other thing. On AN, there was all this comparison of Max to JFK, but did any one else notice that Liz is an awful lot like Jackie? Or is that my imagination.

I totally agree with your points!! I am a strong is not an supporter! You may want to visit the maxcedo site at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/ and specifically http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/Liz.htm .

I also agree that Tess doesn't know how to think for herself, and just did whatever Nasedo told her to do.

Welcome to the RBI!

Some random thoughts after watching this eppy:

~Liz is still a background character! GRRR... What is up with that? I mean, yes, she did play a major part in them discovering that CW was bad, but come on! Since when is it Liz that gets left behind to cover for people when something huge is going down? NEVER!!!!

~What is up with Grant and Isabel? How old is he? Guessing that he is maybe at the youngest 24, that still makes him 6 years older than Is... that's a lot! And how is Is 18? Weren't they all 16 last year? Or did we all just assume that?

~We have clarification about the b-day thing... Is said Oct. 25 is the day that they chose to celebrate her b-day... I can accept that. It's not uncommon in adopted families to celebrate a chosen birthday or the day of adoption as a birthday of sorts.

~Wow! CW gave us valuable info about the podster's past...and I don't think she was lying either. According to CW, Is was in love with some alien and she was willing to betray her brother and her race to have him... I don't think the lover was Michael however... it seems logical to me that whoever took the essences of the royal four would leave the lover behind... maybe the reason that they have no memories of their past lives is because in order for the podsters to succeed this time Is had to not have any knowledge of her skin lover...

~Could Grant be a counterpart to the skin lover? Could Grant be a skin? Why did Is get a flash when she wiped Grant's blood away? (I loved the big brotherly comments by Max and Michael to Is.)

~It seems to me that Max has his work cut out for him... He's trying to convince everyone that their "destiny" in their past life doesn't have to be the same as it is in this life... First, Tess about the whole bride thing...Second, Liz about them being soulmates and making their own destiny,...and now Isabel about whether or not she will repeat history. (Granted that she tells him what CW actually said.)

This whole thing frustrates me! I don't understand this whole thing about the podsters being so caught up in who they were! I mean, yes, it is important that they have a job to do, but I don't see what that has to do with the romantic relationships and the inheirant parts of their character! They are different people now! Yes, they have a job to do, but couldn't they do it in a different relational dynamic?

Random questions:
~What the heck is the granilith?
~Why didn't Maria take Courtney out in the kitchen? lol I wanna see that so bad!
~What's up with that lame story of Courtney's about the step son thing? CW wasn't old enought to have a step son their age! her husband would've had to been like 50 or something...

Hmmm... I think that's enough for today! lol

Agent Rox signing off!

P.S. RW, welcome! Your ideas are very welcome here! You sound like and RBI at heart!

BTW~ What the heck does BEM mean?

So what about the flash Iz had when she wiped the blood from Grant. Is he going to end up an enemy. Obviously Courtney is keeping an eye out.

What great chemestry that JB and KH have.

Liz was pretty cool. Quick thinking on her part getting into that drawer. Quite the little burlgar we have here. That was funny what she told Mrs. Evans about Isabel.

Next weeks looks cute. I wish they would comb BF hair out of his face like in this next eppy. The guys looked sooo cute.

Speaking of cute, Alex striptease was so cute and funny. He looked beefer.

So how come out pod squad never investigated the pod chamber before?

Well after I watch it again tomorrow, I think I will have more to say, nighty night.

Okay, don't ask reference questions with a Librarian in the audience if you don't want her to get on her soapbox. Here goes, citations & all:

On The Science Fiction of Surprise thread at http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/000934-2.html , LSS posted: quote:In common English a granolith is a stepping stone--a pavement stone.
and shapeshifter (moi) answered: quote:Good catch! I thought it was a made-up word. It reminded me of the monolith in 2001 SO.
Webster's Collegiate says: an artificial stone of crushed granite and cement.
I also predicted and predict that Liz & Tess will make nice: 'the enemy of my enemy is my friend.'

cool subtle message of the night: when michael and courtney are in the kitchen discussing the cake, there is a bumper sticker(?) above mike's head that reads "tell us the truth."

i need to watch the ep again and see how i feel, just wanted to express my tess uneasines first! see y'all.

************
"she's like dolly parton without the jugs"

Ok, seemingly, Whitaker suspected Tess initially... WHY? Why Tess and not immediately Isabel? It seems, from Whitaker's little story, that she was looking for "the traitor"; someone's *sister* (presumedly, the leader's sister). Whitaker didn't even have to know who Max was (which I do think she did) because Isabel/Max are living as BRO/SIS! I'd think Iz would have been the obvious choice from the getgo (and Max/Tess were *definitely* not!). Whitaker knew Isabel and Tess were the female hybrid royals, she just didn't know which one to choose (?) Did Whitaker suspect Tess because of what Liz said about her?? This makes NO sense because Liz described Tess (accurately) as the girl who basically stole her man (aka Max the leader whose sister was sent with him to Earth also as a hybrid)... that's OBVIOUSLY not a very "sisterly" thing to do. Unless bro/sis relationships on Twilo are more comparable to grecian tragedy (eww) as opposed to the *normal* (healthy!) bro/sis relationship on Earth??

Did Whitaker secretly *test* Isabel and she seemingly failed this test, hence Whitaker immediately deduced it was Tess they were looking for? But then Tess turned out to be completely wrong and then went back to their suspecting Isabel?

I assumed (from what Whitaker said) that it *had to be* one of the female "hybrid royals" that was Vilandra? But what if Vilandra was NEVER sent as a hybrid to Earth? However, Vilandra IS on Earth in a different form? If Isabel nor Tess are Vilandra... then who could Vilandra be? I don't want to speculate what I'm speculating (but I think I have to). Who's the one person that has had "V" associated with her more than anyone else in the story so far? The first to have the "V" constellation vision and the one referred to as "Venus"? Yes kids, what if Liz is Vilandra? Of course, I'd IMMEDIATELY have to assume it's Mike that's her brother and NOT Max (can someone say, "incest"? ...yuck!!) Although, if Vilandra was this traitor that betrayed her brother and family (inc. Max) then why would Max have been attracted to Liz/Vilandra (in love with her?) from the very first moment he saw her? I would assume he'd hate her from the very first moment for betraying him?

Melodious

And I thought I was going to be alone tonight Czech! I almost feel *guilty* that I'm still distrusting her after watching SURPRISE (obviously seeing her get the crap kicked out of her by Whitaker). Yet I STILL can't trust her?! I don't think it's jealousy or bitterness either; her "kidnapping" (sickeningly) invoking sympathy in basically everyone, particularly Isabel (except Maria and Liz of course gotta love our human vixens).

Although, after tonight's ep, it really seems like the writers want us to believe she *is* a podster (Whitaker does mention her as one of the "hybrid royals"). Not only that, but a *misunderstood* podster (which is even WORSE!) What of the inconsistencies in her story? Particularly the memories Max has in BALANCE as compared to the memories he has post-Tess' arrival? They were obviously different. I'm in limbo where Tess is concerned... I don't want to trust her (gut feeling is telling me she's hiding something); but if she is a podster, I shouldn't have a reason to distrust her, am I right? ...although, I'd have assumed the same for Isabel, but from what Whitaker says (which could be a big lie), Isabel is the one not to be trusted... yet I still trust Isabel completely! Please tell me I'm not some kind of moron!

Melodious

I agree! Why was she "Still working" at CW's when the party was going on.. or why was she left to "cover for Is"?? She's LIZ after all - put her in the CENTER!!!

quote:
~What is up with Grant and Isabel? How old is he? Guessing that he is maybe at the youngest 24, that still makes him 6 years older than Is... that's a lot! And how is Is 18? Weren't they all 16 last year? Or did we all just assume that?

He's gotta be older than 24. I mean, I'm 26 and he looks too old for ME!

quote:
~Wow! CW gave us valuable info about the podster's past...and I don't think she was lying either. According to CW, Is was in love with some alien and she was willing to betray her brother and her race to have him... I don't think the lover was Michael however... it seems logical to me that whoever took the essences of the royal four would leave the lover behind... maybe the reason that they have no memories of their past lives is because in order for the podsters to succeed this time Is had to not have any knowledge of her skin lover...

~Could Grant be a counterpart to the skin lover? Could Grant be a skin? Why did Is get a flash when she wiped Grant's blood away? (I loved the big brotherly comments by Max and Michael to Is.)

All right, here's where I go out on a limb. I'm convinced that the counterpart is Grant. He's a Skin and maybe has some recollection of his past with Is, but not a total! I also think that he might not really care about the love aspect of their past relationship, but rather the granilith. He may think that if he "reminds" Is of things in the past, then she'll turn on the Pod Squad and help him and the Skins "take over the world", or whatever their mission is. I think it's KEY that SHE found the granilith! I also think it's key that she didn't tell Max or Mike about what CW said.. about the betrayal. She's starting to keep secrets!!

One other thing.. I would just like to state for the record that I, in no way shape or form, trust Ms. T - I'm CONVINCED she has something to hide and that she's in some way in cahoots with the Skins or the EA. I just wish I could put my finger on HOW!!!

Agent StephStephSteph

Or.. if you're going to try and get the Granilith from the Pod Squad and you TRULY believe they have it, why not go directly to Max? He IS the leader.. wouldn't he have it if they had it?? And, if so, why not capture Liz - being that Max would run after Liz first and foremost?? Does Liz carry some sort of power over CW and the Skins? Do they have an allegiance to her that maybe they would never hurt her, yet could care less about T ? Or.. am I totally nuts and grasping at straws!?!?

Just some crazy early morning speculation!

I am coming out of delurking to post a quick thought (I barely ever have to time to even check the boards anymore). This is the only thread that I still read when I get a moment.

Did anyone else think that it was strange that the granolith, which is essential to the survival of the skins (their enemy), was in the pod chamber?

I guess I can throw away the little Whitaker=Sheila Hubble theory now that the good congresswoman is not with us anymore.

I think Grant is a skin. How did a geologist who works with the earth get blood on his neck? Now for some reason, I don't trust Isabel. Why did she tell Max and Michael about the whole betrayal thing? Will Isabel possible betray them again in the future? I may have to keep an eye on both Tess and Isabel. Or maybe the skins are puttting doubt into Isabel's head to make her think it's true....never mind.

Bye for now.

YES!! This is what I was thinking! Well, not exactly (I still can't shake it that T isn't REALLY part of the Pod Squad), but if she IS part of the Pod Squad, then this is a GREAT reason!!!

Gawd, I love this show!

I guess I can throw away the little Whitaker=Sheila Hubble theory now that the good congresswoman is not with us anymore.

I think Grant is a skin. How did a geologist who works with the earth get blood on his neck? Now for some reason, I don't trust Isabel. Why did she tell Max and Michael about the whole betrayal thing? Will Isabel possible betray them again in the future? I may have to keep an eye on both Tess and Isabel. Or maybe the skins are puttting doubt into Isabel's head to make her think it's true....never mind.

Bye for now.

lol about CW being Sheila Hubble!

As to how Grant got the cut, having been around a rock drill before, I can honestly see how he got cut. Small, very sharp pieces of rock do tend to go flying when you're using one of those. I have to admit I do like Grant and he may not be just a geologist, but my gut is telling me he's not one of the black hats, or snake skins if you prefer. I'm wondering if he could be the long-missing Tictac. Besides, Courtney was planting images in Is's head all evening. If they are going to try to convince Is that she is Vilandra it would be in their best interest to come between her and any potential love interest so she would be more likely to hook up with their leader.

I have to say CW's story sounds suspicious simply because if Vilandra did betray her brother in that way, why did she go so far as to get herself killed instead of just joining her lover after the others were dead? Something stinks in Roswell!!!

I am kind of a simpleton. I think that the book from the home planet was correct. The royal 4 are as we have been told.

For those who are concerned about secrets being kept, the podsters have ALWAYS kept secrets from eachother. It is not a new thing, so I don't worry. Although they could really go far by telling the truth.

Yes, Iz was Valandra in her previous life. Again, not too concerned because she is Iz now.

I think Grant was the skin she loved.

The reason she (a traitor) is with the pod squad is because she sacrificed herself for this other race. No one ever knew she was a traitor. I think CW honestly thought Iz was on their side and would give her the info she was after. Weird how CW says she'll kill them all if she has to. How is she going to get her precious info from corpses???

Another random thought. Why isn't Courtney totally killing people yet?

I also think that Liz is very important, even though I don't think she is an alien. Please don't get mad at me. I think she is important to the aliens because of the relationship she had (will have) with Max. I really liked the thought someone had on the time travel of Mike and Max back to the Crashdown Pilot epi. Is she important because she helps the royal 4 in their quest or does Max choose her over his quest? I don't know. For some reason she is a key figure.

Again, this is a really cool thread. Thanx for letting me "crash" here.

Maybe Liz does have the essence of Max's beloved (don't want to speculate on biology of this right now), and Nasedo created poor Tess to be a decoy.

The "we've got to get rid" of her dudes in the pilot might have been skins.

This episdoe - though totally fun - raised lots of questions for me - way more than were answered! I agree with all of you that don't trust Tess! What was she doing out there - in the middle of nowhere in the first place??

Also - I don't think it was Courtney sending Iz the messages - I think it was Tess - or Whitaker - or just Iz's ability due to her close connection with Tess. IF Courtney was sending the images, than she would have to have been there when Tess was abducted, and I got the feeling she was working at the Crashdown. (Only two tire tracks were seen.)

Also, Courtney dating the stepson - maybe on another planet! But I got the impression Whitaker was single on this planet - otherwise, why would she be talking about her boyfriend with newly hired staff.

Also, WHO got Liz the Great Opportunity at Whitaker's office? I thought it was Harding/Pierce, but ...

I have to watch the show again before commenting more, but last issues raised:
- I also wondered about Whitaker's interest in Liz's parents.
- I think Grant is either a Skin or Tic Tac, but time will tell. He could very well be the Skin Iz supposedly loved in the former life.
- So are they finally going to read some of the files they have access to - look at Whitaker's files alone, there is a treasure trove of information there!! I want to read them if they don't!
- How are they going to explain the "disappearance" of Whitaker - the FBI will be brought in on that one for sure!
- Why didn't Harding tell them about the granilith behind the pods - maybe that is why he was upset that Tess had brought the podsters there originally.

Finally, I thought the Alex dance was hysterical! And I was SOOOO glad to see Max and Iz's mom there! Where was her dad? Where are the parents??

See you all soooon!
Zero

Now, part 2:
Whittaker either presumes Liz is one of the royal 4 but soon realizes her blunder, or she just knows about Liz's disenchantment and decides to take advantage. Recall Pierce knew in WR about Liz's importance to Max, and CW and Pierce were confidantes.
In either case, she uses Liz to identify Tess as the key (and mistakes Tess for Valandra). Grant aids CW in luring an alienated Tess into a meeting supposedly to get rid of Liz, but really to betray all and reveal the Granolith.

Meanwhile, Courtney gives Is flashes that lead her to Tess. Courtney's motive is either to get rid of Michael's betrothed so she can move in (Maria is a non-entity to Courtney), or Courtney really did do a thing with Whitaker's stepson and wants to get even by having Is thwart Whitaker's plan to kill Tess.

How's that?

and, BTW: "granolith" comes from "grain" meaning "seed" and "lithic" meaning "stone," so it is a "seed stone." LSS says it's also a "stepping stone."

Faction 1:
Max (Podian leader, fell in love w/ Vilandra)
Isabel (leader's sister)

Faction 2: Skins or Skin sympathizers
~Vilandra (Max's 1st wife, Queen & "the balance")
~Michael (2nd in command, betrothed to Isabel to seal treaty between faction 1 & 2)
~Tess (jealous sister; in love with Max)

Tess wants Max, Tess meets with Skin Rebel leaders and strikes up a deal... "I'll help you if you help me remove my sister from my beloved Max's heart." Vilandra - a Skin sympathizer - wants peace between Skins & Podians (hence, could be an ambassador to some extent)... Tess uses this to her advantage. One of the Skins (who could be in love with Vilandra), along with Tess' help, build an enormous MindWarp making everyone believe Vilandra is supporting the Skin Rebel forces that want to overthrow Max's rule. Max doesn't believe it at first, but Tess mindwarps him (or some Skin mindwarps him), making him think Vilandra was unfaithful to him with a Skin Rebel (a Skin she might have even had a relationship with at one time or another, but that was long in the past). Max is furious and exiles her, executes her? Vilandra, realizing somehow she's been the pawn in a horrible conspiracy, never holds anomosity against Max (because she loves him so much).

So, Vilandra (the "balance" between both worlds) has been removed by Skin Rebels and Max is now free for Tess' taking (hence, Max marries her out of spite? Shortly before they're all killed). Unfortunately, in her desperate need to secure Max; Tess didn't realize how truly important Vilandra was in the cause. W/out her, Podian rule is now doomed. The Skins betray Tess and slaughter all the royals. To get even more melodramatic, on his deathbed (dying on the battlefield?) some cruel Skin 'in the know' told Max *everything*, that it was all a big conspiracy set-up by Skin Rebels & his present bride, Tess; that he needless killed/exiled his own wife because of it (which was their downfall). Max (aghast at what he's done) in that instant wishes he could live it all over again...

Earth, Max gets off the school bus and from across the playground, *recognizes* his beloved 1st wife (reincarnated or perhaps her essence was also cloned and someone who never doubted her -TicTac?- managed to smuggle it to Earth on that spaceship 1947? He implants it in Liz Parker because she's *in synch* with Max's hatching?); the one who he so bitterly betrayed in the past. Max (still) doesn't understand why he's so attracted to Liz because the Podians (believing Vilandra the foulest of temptresses) erased all his memories of her, however, they couldn't erase her from his soul. This could also explain Max's rather bizarre line to Liz at the end of ASK NOT, "I don't care about my planet" yada yada "I'm coming for YOU Liz". Max somehow *senses* Liz's importance and refuses to betray her again; refuses to choose his crown/duty over his heart (the same mistake he made in the past life which got them all killed). Hence, also accentuating all the "follow your heart" statements in Roswell directed at both Max & Liz. This might also accentuate the speculations on Liz herself being some type of leader or the complement to the leader (because -in theory- Liz/Vilandra WAS in the alien past life and ruled alongside Max).

I wonder if Tess remembers something/anything about Vilandra (since she's the only one that seems to concretely remember anything)? Something she's choosing not to tell everyone at the moment? (although, she might not remember either due to above Podian Vilandra beliefs).

Possibly Whitaker was telling what she believes to be the truth about Vilandra? Perhaps it was only a *selected few* amongst Skin Rebels that knew the actual truth about the Vilandra situation? Or maybe Whitaker does know the truth, but fudged it to make it look like Vilandra was a complete traitor (which I can definitely see Whitaker doing, for the *good of her race*).

What do y'all think, am I completely insane?

Melodious

courtney, however, is still baffling me. sure she's a skin, but i still kinda like her! makes me wonder just how "evil" that evil alien is.

ZERO--i'm with you about the cw's files. if she has pics of courtney, she might have pics of all the skins, not to mention all kinds of other goodies.

I don't know how many of you know about Greek mythology but in Edipus Rex by asking the oracles (in this case CW) to find out the future (CW was hoping history would repeat itself- hence future) the king and queen recieve a prophecy (what CW told Is) about their son. The prophecy is bad so in order to keep it from happening they send him away, but the very act of sending him away is what makes to prophecy occurr... I think this has a lot to do with the idea in Surprise. The idea of traitorous actions has been put in Isabel's head, where as she would never have thought of it before. Now she's worried about it. Now it's going to be in the forfront of her mind. Maybe this will keep her from letting it happen again, or maybe this will make her think that she is a bad person and succumm to "history repeating itself."

I don't know if that made any sense at all, but if not then just disregard it... lol

Agent Rox over an out!

P.S. Where is Palamino, Redhawk, et al? You guys are missing all the fun!

Everyone here is theory that I do not like, but I keep thinking over it and I find it so creepy I'm intrigued. When I was watching Ask Not, and we got the flashbacks from Max (BEM) we constantly saw the shooting at the Crashdown. Two gun men fighting, Liz being shot. Ask Not showed a lot of Max/Michael squabbles. I was trying to figure out why Max would be remembering this scene when approaching Brody's office door. I was remembering the dialog of the pilot. The lines spoken right before Liz got shot:

"More Coffee?"
"No Get Out of Here"
"Hmph"

I remembered the tone in which the shooter said, "No Get out of Here" to Maria. I realized that it sounded exactly like Michael. (Now putting those jumping shoes one for a grande jete.) What if Max was remembering a future event and past event when approaching Brody's door? What if Max and Michael were the shooters? With the May 14th Mommogram message conflicting with the 4S date of May 27th and these ever present time travel references, what if Max and Michael had to go thru time and alter it so Max could admit what he is to Liz?

The only thing that doesn't seem to fit is the line of "We have to get rid of her." It seemed to me in Pilot that the shooters had two different conversations going on. One was about money... the other was about a girl... What if HER is TESS! And bringing Liz into the picture was the only way they could alter time so that Max would not be attracted to Tess!

I still think this theory is rather scary!!! So what do you all think?

intresting theroy always like time travel therios.
LIZPARKERFan the harding-decoy-tictac(the real thing)very intresting
granolith a stepping stone,so this brings the skins to the next level,i wonder if they
get a hold of this could they actually blend with everyone else could they become human???could they become immoratal???
Stephstephstepi too don't trust t*** i honestly think thei whole kidnapped thing was a decoy and well maybe to make it appear real-CW did beat the crap out of her...i think CW said those things to Iz to try and get info outof her and maybe bring a little rift to the pod squad. Liz still doesn't trust her and neither do i.
Peace Carolyn

Rox, you're probably right about my "out there" speculating. While I was typing the above I kept thinking, "God! They're all going to think I'm nuts!" I'm such a diehard Liz Mythologist (not an Isabel Mythologist); I'm bound to explore Liz's possibilities as opposed to Isabel's (who already had a definite place in the alien mythos). This whole Vilandra story seemingly only highlights Iz even more, is this really necessary? It's Liz who's still the mystery, d*mn it!! My severe distrust of Tess is also probably clouding my better judgement.

btw, interesting you bring up the Oedipus story. More things to ponder (although, let's hope incest stays out of the Ros world please! Just had an interesting image of Laura the Exposition Angel and Maximilian Rex pop in my head... ewww)

Melodious

Come On! Bump!

You can do better than that!

lol

Melodious1- I'm just happy to kmow I'm not the only one laying in bed staring at the ceiling theorizing about Roswell!LOL

I think they gave us a big bold neon clue - "REDS"! This neon sign ties in with our color theory. I can't get the image painted on the back wall of three spaceships, one blue, one yellow and one red out of my mind. It's making me start to really think there may be three different groups of aliens not just the two we know of. Did you all notice whwn Michael is in VW's office the camera pans past a picture of her hanging on the wall and it's bathed in RED light!

Soit looks like Liz is out of a job. I wonder if she'll go back to work at the Crashdown now.

There was a cayote howling when Max and Valenti were in Grants room RIGHT before Grant walked in. What did we decide about the cayote howl did it indicate TicTac?

I have something that Max read to us from Among Us that Atherton said stuck in my head. I keep hearing him say - aliens wouldn't have the lung capacity or brain capacity for more than short term survival on earth. VW tells Isabel she needs the granolith because her 50 years are almost up. Well, in the big picture 50 years is a very short time. Could Atherton have been talking about the skins?

I was disapointed that ther wasn't more of Liz. I did like the interaction between Mrs. Evans and she. Mrs Evans better get to know Liz well because she's her future daughter in law!!!(yes, I am a die hard dream girl!!)

I laughed SOOOO hard at Alex's dance. Did you all pay attention to the expressions on Max/Is/Maria's faces. I don't think they had to do any acting here, I think it was genuine ammusement.

I also enjoyed the scene with Valenti and Max rumaging through Tess' things. Even the sheriff can tell she's a hussy!!

I still don't trust Tess either. Part of this comes from the Grant phone call. I'm very unsure of him as well. The story of shopping for a Birthday gift sounds lagit but there's just something ther I don't trust!

Tess may have used her mind warp power to draw Isabel out there so Whitaker could take her out. That would make Tess the real betrayer!

Max TRUELY can't have any feelings for Tess because if he did he would have immediatly run to her to heal her the way he did with our Liz.

Why is Courtney so hung up on Michael. I'm assuming she knows who and what he is but maybe I'm wrong. About her slapping him I'm thinking about what she told him about piercings- it only hurts at first and then it's about the stimulation. Is pain a turn on on planet Twilo? LOL

I thought the song playing at Isabel's party was very appropriate- "She goes boom boom boom she inialates me" 3 betrayed 3 booms.

Where are Liz's parents?????

In the drawer Liz breaks into ( you go Liz!) the first CD she looks at is labled Joe Davis could this be any relation to Brody Davis or could it actually BE Brody Davis?

Courtney likes tobasco.

Courtney says Trust me no ones after Tess. What does she kow???

Oh, back on the color theme, the little alien Isabel gets as a gift is on RED tissue paper.

Grant calls Max Deputy Dog - made me think - River Dog, Dog boy (Kyles reference to Doug Shellow), in Kyles room is a poster that reads top dawg. oh and dog is God backwards.

If the pod squad's powers are increasing does that mean Liz's are as well. (I believe her visions are a power!)

Max says to Isabel "no one can come between us" this is eerily similar to what evil Max told Liz.

I can't wait to see how they explain the disapearance of a Congresswoman, That has me wondering why aren't those involved in what went on in the white room coming forward telling what they know, or why aren't they after our gang?

Wow I really rambled. Thanks for listening!

Starstruck

Remember- Liz is the Queen!!!!

This has probably already been mentioned but I didn't catch it anywhere so here it is...When Iz throws the rock through the pod at the end, thus discovering the Granolyth(spelling?), wasn't that Tess's pod that she threw it through? I have't checked it but I'm pretty sure. Symbolic of something? Not sure what but if it is her's, it definatley means something.

Voyant

Ok, seemingly, Whitaker suspected Tess initially... WHY? Why Tess and not immediately Isabel? It seems, from Whitaker's little story, that she was looking for "the traitor"; someone's *sister* (presumedly, the leader's sister). Whitaker didn't even have to know who Max was (which I do think she did) because Isabel/Max are living as BRO/SIS! I'd think Iz would have been the obvious choice from the getgo (and Max/Tess were *definitely* not!). Whitaker knew Isabel and Tess were the female hybrid royals, she just didn't know which one to choose (?) Did Whitaker suspect Tess because of what Liz said about her?? This makes NO sense because Liz described Tess (accurately) as the girl who basically stole her man (aka Max the leader whose sister was sent with him to Earth also as a hybrid)... that's OBVIOUSLY not a very "sisterly" thing to do. Unless bro/sis relationships on Twilo are more comparable to grecian tragedy (eww) as opposed to the *normal* (healthy!) bro/sis relationship on Earth??

This really bothered me - I am big into my own little conspiricy theory. I do NOT trust Tess & dont believe that she has been honest.
Here was my immediate thoughts. CW was obviously looking for Vilandra. She believed the way to find her was to look for the the person that Max was involved with in his previous "life". She was "staking out" Liz to find all of this out and immediately assumed it was Tess. What if it WAS Tess? What if she was confronted by CW and is already betraying the pod squad?? What if Max is not even who she is after - but her "skin" lover. This would explain why Tess was calling specifically on Isabel for help. It also explains why Tess was not killed - after all CW supposedly killed Nasedo - why not kill Tess too? It really seemed to me like Tess was in on luring Isabel to "rescue" her - and did you notice how Courtney seemed to know EXACTALY what was going on when Isabel was getting her "Tess-in-distress" messages.

My gut feeling has always been that either Liz is the 4th alien or that the fourth alien did not make it - but I dont buy for a second that Max was ever married to Tess. Liz is the only one that is consisitently loyal to Max and the only one (aside from Max) who has shown herself to be willing to put the good of others above what she wants.

Also some random thoughts - I dont think the book Tess showed them was authentic. It does not go along with the mom-o-gram. I mean - if you are on earth to fight a cosmic battle the LAST thing you need to be doing is having babies.
Also - Nacedo (as Agent Pierce) was having sex with CW and didnt know she was a skin??? That makes NO sense.
I think there are lots and lots of things that add up to Tess NOT being one of the four aliens - and definately NOT being Max's destiny. (Interesting too - in every interview I have read with a cast member they still refer to the "three" aliens)

Ooops - one more random thought - remeber in Sexual Healing when Liz was confronted by her mother and told she was "burning up". This struck me at the time as being similar to what happened to Michael earlier. I think it definately points to Liz as having a stronger connection to the aliens than appears.

Courtney says Trust me no ones after Tess....

Hmmm....
We shall see. But even if Tess is in cahoots with the EAs, she could shift her alliance for the great love Isabel demonstrated.

I wanted Grant to be TicTac, but I think he is a skin. Maybe Isabel was in love w/someone, but didn't know he was a skin and accidentally told him things that were later used against Max and the others. Why would she risk herself being killed, unless she realized her mistake and tried to make things right. Only to get them all killed.

But I think this is a ploy by Tess. How could CW confuse the two girls. Even though she was all beat up, she could hear what CW was saying to Iz. Maybe this way she can keep Isabel in her control by holding this info over her.

Courtney could have been planting those images in Isabel's head because she kept staring intensly at her when they kept happening. Grant goes over to make sure the plan is in effect. Notice how they so great care in Isabel's dress tearing when she goes throught the gate. Grant has a cut on his neck that could easily have been made by crawling through there since he is bigger.

Also, the phone call to Tess. Isabel said herself she hadn't been all that nice to Tess lately. Why would she call him? He could have asked Maria, etc.

I wonder if this granlith thing has all there stored mememories or if it is a big communicator or a way for them to visit there planet.And Nasedo should have told them it was there, unless he knew one of them was a traitor. The Pod squad should have investigated the place.

I conclusion-If Isabel was the traitor, I don't think she knew about it. I think it could have been accidental. The bad guys always to seduce the person closest to the hero.

Hey Hyper ! That might explain Nasedo's whole personna!

First, if you spell Villandra this way, notice that Villian is almost a root of it. Just thought that was interesting. I'm still not convince Iz was the Villandra that betrayed the podsters and their people, but I'm not sure I have enough information to come to a conclusion. I kept thinking that the scene where Iz see Tess coming through the Crashdown door all beat-up was too similar to the Tess illusions we had seen before, so - I don't trust Tess!

Why wasn't Liz at the party on time - this still bugs me. I can't believe she would stay away just to avoid Max.

Grant's birthday is 12/7, anything interesting about that date?? I can't think of anything, but ... I still can't believe Iz turned 18! WOW time flies. There is a bit of continuity problem here - but Max's birthday was 3/15/1983 in Blood Brothers, which would make him 17 turning 18 next Spring - so I guess it works. BUT they would not be sophomores - at least make them juniors in HS.

Great Quote: Courtney - "All that blond hair and eye shadow, [Tess] is like Dolly Parton without the Jugs!" Go Courtney - even if you are a Skin. On the subject of Courtney - I'm not convince all Skin are going to turn out evil, just like all podster people will turn out good. All societies are more complex than that! If Iz, or someone in the Royal Court, betrayed the podsters people for the love of a Skin, obviously other inter-racial relationships could have occurred. What is evil from one point of view, may not be from another. Courtney, while picking up the broken glass, tells Iz to basically not to worry about it, "this is your day." I think the writers were giving us a lot of red herrings in this show about Courtney, and that ultimately, she may not turn out to be evil?? I also keep wondering where Tic Tac is?

Second best line: Valenti - "Wanted to jump your bones .... in my dreams!" Max smurks!

Thanks for the meaning of Granolith! I think it may be a transport system - a connection to the home planet. Maybe this will allow better communication, and a home visit. I did notice that it is a 12-sided form. Oh - and someone mentioned that it might have been Iz's pod, but I think from the visions, that was Tess' pod (if you can trust that vision) that the communicator was thrown through.

Also - if 50 years is the limit for a Skin, that means that Whitaker had to have come to Earth (or been born) in the 1950s which brings her to Earth after the '47 crash. So, my speculation that the aliens have been visiting at other times could be accurate.

Statement with more than one meaning -"History always repeats itself." I think this statement can mean many things. It is a challenge to Iz (assuming she is the Villandra spoken about) to not betray her "family" again, but it is a notice that there is other history that might be repeating itself - Like a connection between Max and Liz?? Mel - like your theory which fits in here somehow!

Finally, the monolog (sp?) by Iz bugged me - I'm not sure why, it just did. But I had to agree with many of her stated concerns - why send the Royal 4 to Earth without any guideness???

Okay - Now Liz, go read those files and listen to those tapes/CDs!!!

Zero

Something else I noticed and I don't think anyone has mentioned it. Did you guys notice that when Isabel used her powers that there was no light at all? But when CW used her power on the door there was a bright light, which was the same color as Nasedos and Michaels. This is pretty interesting.

I wonder if the Granilith is going to have anything to do w/what happens in next weeks eppy also.

Did you guys notice in the promo that Michael is in bed w/Isabel, hmmm.

By the way "Hi" Adam. It's nice to have new people here, but where are all the oldie but goodies. On special assignents

I think everyone has some great ideas brewing.
Starstruck I can not believe you caught everthing that I did. But I was glad because it's more of a clue when more then one of us see it. I also notice what Maria said to Max, "you acting like a puppy dog," or something like that. So do you think Riverdog is connected to both Max and Kyle? Kyle because of the poster?

Melodious 1 I didn't think your theory was way out there. I really liked how you connected Liz to the myth. I thought it was a great read, you should try your hand at FanFic.

I was reading through the post and never read anything about "WHY?" Tess didn't heal herself. I know Iz didn't but she was a little busy with CW. On LN Iz asked Max why he didn't heal himself after the fight, so they should be able to do this. They also made a point on AN to show us that Tess had the power to heal, when Tess healed Max. I also noticed along with some of you that Max didn't run up to Tess and carry her away and heal her once the danger had past, he had that brotherly chat with Iz and didn't think much of Tess suffering. Could you imagine if it was Liz, the guy would have tore down that gate to get to her.
Did anyone else notice that Tess didn't use her powers on CW. Is it that she can't play mind warp games on the skins or is it that Tess is the rotten pod I had always thought she was. Something stinks and Roswell and it goes by the name Tess Harding. Liz doesn't trust her and Liz is never wrong.

Evid

Evid
B]

Definitely agree with you on that!!

Zero

RBI agents- what is that bottle of blue liquid Maria is toting around after lunch with Max in Ask Not. It looks so out of place. The same bottle appears in Surprise, I think it's Courtney in a picture from Whitaker's office. It really looks odd to me.

OK: Sheila Hubble, who remember's here. Remember we thought that she was killed by a shapeshifter. What if she was killed by a Skin for fetal tissues to grow a new one. Whitaker looks to be late 20s and that would put her "skin" at the right age.

Liz-- please come back from where ever you are and try to open yourself back up! The show's character development seems to rest in you!

I'm think you're right about Courtney not necessarily being evil. The writers have so far shown us Good Aliens and Bad Aliens; Good Humans and Bad Humans. It wouldn't be realistic{} to have only Bad Skins. They can't all be bad.

And about Grant's birthday, December 7th, it's the day that Pearl Harbor was bombed in '41. Does this mean Grant has his own bomb to drop?

RajiQ

Interesting theory about Sheila, it could also be that Sheila was a skin that Nesado killed and her and Liz's resemblance made him suspect Liz of also being a skin. That could explain why Sheila's dead body was so prominent in the flashes Liz got from him. Yet another instance of an innocent getting killed due to mistaken identity. Could this have been foreshadowing about what almost happens with Brody?

That's all to report for now.

DeeDee

RajiQ

Great catch - wonder if the writers realized that!!
Zero

Interesting theory about Sheila, it could also be that Sheila was a skin that Nesado killed and her and Liz's resemblance made him suspect Liz of also being a skin. That could explain why Sheila's dead body was so prominent in the flashes Liz got from him. Yet another instance of an innocent getting killed due to mistaken identity. Could this have been foreshadowing about what almost happens with Brody?

That's all to report for now.

I'm also wondering if Sheila was murdered because she stumbled onto something - remember how Harding was so quick to want to kill all the humans with information ....?

Zero

That makes me wonder though. After Toy House, I thought for sure that they would have more of Mrs. Evans on the show. They really showed the closeness of the Evan's family in that eppy, and I for one am really disappointed that they never expanded upon that. I know they are trying to focus more on the Alien side of the podsters, but it's their human side contrasting with that that makes the story awesome!

After watching the first 3 eppisodes, I've come to the conclussion that we can't give up on our cry of "Where is Liz?" She's not the same...I'm all for the growth of a character, but Liz is doing things that goes against her instinctive nature... Like I said before, it's not anything like Liz to stay behind whenever something major is going down. GRRRR...

I totally loved that they are developing Isabel's character more, but they shouldn't do it at the expense of the other characters!

Okay, I'm done ranting..
Agent Rox

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Coincidence??? I think not. I think that the suggestion is clearly that Liz is "Lola", that the "destinies" are NOT carved in stone and that by somehow learning from the past that all will end well.
Could there have been two previous "lifetimes" or "destinies"- one on the home planet, one involving Sheila Hubble and now this third one (that would explain what Liz sees in her flashes).

Evid

Liz feels that she's changing physically. Is it possible that Max in healing her or in the reverse connection subconsciously prepared her body to become his mate in some sort of evolution of species.

Syndee

Syndee---I have wondered the same thing! Liz says in the beginning of SH that she's changing, and that the feelings are strong, almost chemical. And we know that she's starting to have fantasies about Max---maybe she's also having dreams about him?

Only a couple of episodes later, Michael and Isabel start having dreams about each other, and Tess tells Max that the dreams are to awaken them to how things are supposed to be. Coincidence that Liz is also having similar dreams/feelings at the same time? I hope not.

I know that some feel that M, M, and I's dreams were all caused by Tess-O-Vision, but I'm not so sure. I do believe that Max's visions of kissing Tess and being with Tess were caused by Tess doing a mind warp on him, because I think he had already been "awakened" to the fact that Liz is supposed to be his mate. But I'm not so sure about Michael and Isabel's dreams of each other. I think they may have been genuine, and not sent by Tess.

Don't the books talk about all the aliens having to go through the "akino?" Isn't it supposed to be kind of an alien puberty? Maybe that's what Max and Liz were experiencing in SH, and what Michael and Isabel dream-experienced just a few eps. later.

Maybe Liz *will* turn out to be more than human, and her alien side is just now waking up.

My thought on this is: The granolith is some sort of power source for the skins. The podian race captured it from the skin race, and to keep the skins from getting back a major source of power, they sent it to Earth along with the podian hybrids, thinking it would be out of reach there. But the skins must have it back in order to survive, and in order to be completely in control of their planet, and that's why they've followed the podians to Earth.

Okay..Now I think it is possible that Sheila Hubble might have been a skin. What was up with Whitaker's interest in Liz's parents?
And I just wanted to say that I don't believe anybody id dead until we have concret proof.

Wasn't Max a little to "touchy friendly" with Isabel with the whole "nothing will come between us"? I was like "aren't you suppose to do that to Liz". Isabel should remember to pull her dress up when she decides to go crawling so her boobs won't fall out.

I know that Courtney is a skin and everything, but I like her better than I do Tess. I don't trust Tess for one moment. Why didn't Tess use her powers on Whitaker? You'd think that if someone where trying to kidnap her that she would at least fight back. Do you think Tess delievered Harding straight to the skins?

Do you think Courtney is kind of an alli (spelling)? I mean she is a skin and wouldn't bend over to help them. It's like she's just sitting back and amusing herself.

There was a cayote howling when Max and Valenti were in Grants room RIGHT before Grant walked in. What did we decide about the cayote howl did it indicate TicTac?

This is an interesting thought. But then why would Grant have dug up Pierce's bones? If he was Tic Tac, he had to have known that would be getting the pod squad in trouble. I'm not sure if Grant's a skin or not, but the writers would have to do some fancy footwork to convince me he was Tic Tac or a podian supporter.

I still don't trust Tess either. Part of this comes from the Grant phone call. I'm very unsure of him as well. The story of shopping for a Birthday gift sounds lagit but there's just something ther I don't trust!

Tess may have used her mind warp power to draw Isabel out there so Whitaker could take her out. That would make Tess the real betrayer!

What if Grant, the CW, and Tess were all in cahoots? Maybe they were trying to lure Isabel away from the rest of the podians to get info. from her, and to plant the story that she was a betrayer in her past life. Maybe they thought that she was the most vulnerable to this type of suggestion, and they are hoping to cause tension and distrust in the podian ranks.

I mean, Tess has spent lots of time with Max lately, and has told him that she even remembers parts of their past life together, and she's been spending lots of time with Michael over the summer, so why is it that she only sent visions to Isabel? And it wasn't that she was begging them all for help and Isabel was the only one who picked up on it. Tess was specifically asking for Isabel; calling her by name.

Max TRUELY can't have any feelings for Tess because if he did he would have immediatly run to her to heal her the way he did with our Liz.

I wondered about this, too! I'm glad that Max and Michael didn't touch Tess, because I don't like or trust her, but wasn't it a bit odd that Valenti was the one to carry Tess away?

Courtney says Trust me no ones after Tess. What does she kow???

Again, this makes me think that Tess was in cahoots with the CW, and Courtney knew it. Courtney is a skin, but maybe she's at odds with the CW or the rest of her race, and actually wants to help the podians?

I also don't think Tess sent the dreams. But, I don't think the dreams were necessarily *memories* of another, happier lifetime or caused by any real emotion for each other, obviously (Mike & Iz could be questionable I suppose, but Max doesn't seem to feel anything for Tess, besides a little obligation, sympathy and/or guilt). The podsters are *programmed* and *engineered* beings (acc. to Edsedo & "Mom"). I always thought the dreams were planted (programmed) by the Podians in an attempt to ensure Max w/ Tess and Mike w/ Iz. These dreams were only *triggered* however (possibly) by the presence of Tess, Edsedo and/or the orb. Looking at the "dreams", doesn't anyone think they look really stock? Programming the Mike & Isabel dream, but to make it more symbolic, let's remove Mike & Iz from the SAME desert, alien symbol floor backdrop and just stick Max & Tess in their holding hands.... The dreams seemed very unnatural to me; almost like we were watching some sterile *computer program* played out before us. Except with character changes and add-ins.

Perhaps the podsters are programmed in that if ANYONE who doesn't jive with the alien plan tries to worm their way in... the programming automatically tries to negate them and accentuate the alien plan (of course, this *automatic response* didn't conveniently start until AFTER Tesstiny, Harding, the orb showed up). Example: Iz's programming only says she can be with Mike, so when the *programming* was triggered (for whatever reason) and Iz normally starts dreaming about Alex, the programming kicked in and suddenly she was in that (programmed) stock desert floor scene with Mike in the background.

I think this has already been pondered, but I just have to say it. When Courtney says something to the pod squad & crew, that line about "No one is after Tess..." All I could think was, "Yeah, none of you Skins are "after her"... because she's ONE OF YOU." All of you royals are feeling sorry for her now... wishing you had accepted her into your little group from the beginning. Well kids, this is EXACTLY what we want. We WANT you to accept her completely and we know Maximilian will just heal all her cuts & scrapes anyway (hence warm up to his "young bride" a little). No harm, no foul. Tess may not be aware of what she really is now... when you LEAST suspect it, we'll make Tess remember what she REALLY is and she'll abide only to what WE say; because she's *always* known (subconsciously at least) she's not really one of you -not any part of Earth- and we have the spaceships that can send her back to OUR precious Twilo after we get what we want.

Sorry...rambling

Melodious

First, the whole Tess being in danger thing is really bugging me. I don't think Tess sent out the flashes, because she acted surprised to see Isabel rescuing her in the very begining. Also, she's constantly calling out for Izzy in the episode. In my mind, that makes no sense cause she's been after Max since being introduced. It doesn't make any sense. Wouldn't she call out to Max, wanting him to rescue her, thinking that her love to him would be enough or something.

Also, the podsters and humans have really been letting Courtney slide. So we have that one scene with Michael confronting her, but that's it. She keeps interupting their conversations. Aren't they suspicious? For example, the aliens are talking about Tess and Michael says: "Maybe they're after Tess."
Then Courtney comes in and says: "Trust me, no one's after Tess." This strikes me as odd. Wouldn't they be curious as too how much she has heard? Instead they keep telling her to leave. Whatever happened to the more cautious aliens from last year.

Okay, I really have been reading this stuff too much. This is a bit of a stretch, but when Isabel was getting those flashes of Tess being in trouble, it was accompanied by headaches and sweating. Signs of sickness. In SH, when Liz was receiving flashes from Max, she got a fever and other symptoms. We've never seen Tess get flashes. Maybe (saying Liz is half or completely alien) the female aliens suffer from human like symptoms when receiving too many flashes?

Okay, another thing. To me, when Liz was introducing VW to Isabel, she sounded like she was going to say something and then decided not to. She says something like: "Uh, Isabel. This is Congresswoman (then it sounds like she's about to say something begining with an 'eh' sound) Whitaker." It might just have been a slip up by the actress though. I'm just too paranoid.

Finally, the grenalith (did I spell that right) looked like something in one of Michael's flahes in 285 South or The Morning After (I forgot which episode he get's flashes of Atherton's dome originally). Maybe Atherton was connected to it in some sort of way. Or the key not only gave him visions of the geodesic dome but of the grenalith too.

I just wanna end off saying I really don't believe what Whitaker said about Isabel's past life. I think she may have been twisting the truth or lying all together. Besides, since when have the villians ever been known to tell the truth.

-Liz

I'm glad I'm not the only one that thought that little exchange wasn't all that sibling-like. ::cringes:: I'm not in the least bit Outsider and, frankly, I find the concept repellant. I don't care if you're blood related or not, if you were raised almost all your life believing you were siblings, you ARE siblings. I don't care how traumatized I am, if my bro started being all Max-like as in that above scene... I would have been MOST uncomfortable. Of course, that might just be my relationship with my own bro, but couldn't help the shivers from watching the above.

"We have to take care of each other" Was the line thrown in to possibly make Iz MORE guilty of what she might have done in the past life? ... because I wasn't getting all that much a "concerned sibling" vibe off Max (or Iz). Or perhaps JB and Katherine might have *feelings* for each other which is reflected in their acting (are they dating? Not like I care, but it could be affecting their performances).

Melodious

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Coincidence??? I think not. I think that the suggestion is clearly that Liz is "Lola", that the "destinies" are NOT carved in stone and that by somehow learning from the past that all will end well.

Excellent observation! The writers never casually drop these kind of hints!

Also - why wasn't Grant more "concerned" that Tess was missing?

Zero

Coule CW be alluding to trying to protect her lover, an EA? Possibly the same one that Vilandra was supposedly in love with? Could she have taken her own story and changed who did the betraying just to see if Is remembered? Hmmmmmm...

Just stopping in to put in my two cents.

Elmindreda- I agree with you that Mike and Is's dreams were natural (or at least not Tessavisions). I just got the impression that they were getting some hint of old memories. *shruggs* I guess we'll find out as well go along...

About the whole Max and Is thing... Everybody on line is freaking out over this scene! lol As we have seen all throughout last season and even this season, Max has a tender heart toward the women in his life: Liz (of course), Is (many times when she's been afraid), and his mom. I see the touched that he gives as an outward sign of that... Yeah, to many that may seem a little intimate for a guy to be with his family, but my brother hugs and puts his arm around me and my sister all the time... I think it really depends on the person. So, my take on it is... Is was freaking out, and Max was coming in to rescue his frightened sister.

Agent Rox over and out!

Just stopping in to put in my two cents.

Elmindreda- I agree with you that Mike and Is's dreams were natural (or at least not Tessavisions). I just got the impression that they were getting some hint of old memories. *shruggs* I guess we'll find out as well go along...

About the whole Max and Is thing... Everybody on line is freaking out over this scene! lol As we have seen all throughout last season and even this season, Max has a tender heart toward the women in his life: Liz (of course), Is (many times when she's been afraid), and his mom. I see the touched that he gives as an outward sign of that... Yeah, to many that may seem a little intimate for a guy to be with his family, but my brother hugs and puts his arm around me and my sister all the time... I think it really depends on the person. So, my take on it is... Is was freaking out, and Max was coming in to rescue his frightened sister.

Agent Rox over and out!

Also, keep in mind this was the podsters first "engagement" with the enemy. Being able to reassure the troups is the sign of a good leader and of course Is is going to be freaked out. Besides, Max has used this same treatment before to calm the women in his life down. Think about how he reacted when they had the kitchen fire, and also when Is thought she was pregnant. That's just Max.

I'm going to try and catch up on the rest of the thread as soon as I get a chance, but just from this page, it looks like you all have been thinking some of the same things I have. "Surprise" was a little on the overwhelming side. Sooo much information thrown at us in one episode. Yikes. I had to watch it again and take notes (yes, I take notes. ).

Courtney says, "Trust me, no one is after Tess." How revealing!?! Hmm. Shouldn't the skins be after Tess if she is a podian? I felt like Courtney was perhaps giving Isabel the visions of Tess in trouble to lead Isabel out to the power plant to be confronted by VW. That would mean though that Courtney and VW are in cahoots and maybe even Tess. Hmm. I'm going to have to give this more thought. Be back later.

happy thoughts to leave you with today...

notice Max's hand on Liz's neck and the V formation in the background.

Rocklowery: Agreed!!

I also feel Courtney gave Iz the visions. Every time we saw Courtney, the expressions on her face *really* seemed to say that she knew exactly what was happening.

Tess' possible involvement: I know I don't trust Tess, but I can't figure out if she's a Skin (or "the traitor") and doesn't realize it (remember it) or if she's completely on the Skins side (regardless whether she's a podster or skin). Or she could just be a poor podster who was kidnapped/beaten and we should all feel ashamed of ourselves for distrusting her.... yeah, riiiiggghhht.

There could be nothing here... but did anyone else think Tess was making it VERY easy for Isabel to find her in that huge abandoned factory? Almost too easy. Iz, it seemed, was barely in the factory when Tess' crying became very distinct. Following her cries, Iz eventually found Tess in that subterranean area. I suppose we're to assume sound travels *very well* in a place like that or that girl has got quite a set of lungs in her. Especially for someone who could barely stand or stay conscious. Of course, I suppose it doesn't take all that much strength to whimper, but she *was* whimpering very loudly. I suppose I have to keep in mind her lungs are presumedly superadvanced. ...hmpf

Was Tess crying that loudly because she was indeed scared and injured? Possibly. She somehow *sensed* Isabel's presence and started screaming the best she could for help? Also possible (considering she can sense Max ::cringe:: ). Or, like Courtney, just maybe Tess was *also* luring Isabel to her? Also possible, but if this is the case, then Tess IS on the Skins side; let herself get beaten up. Realizing Max/Mike would just heal her anyway. Why didn't she just heal herself, at least a little bit? We know she can heal. She couldn't gain any strength lying there in a heap? I don't know, just seems weird.

Something I want to add on to this... Tess & the Skins both seem to be able to "manipulate molecular structures" (Courtney with the magical soda). No one needed to lay a hand on Tess (telekinetically or otherwise) to make those wounds appear. I'd assume, if "manipulating molecular structures" means bruises can be healed, then it also can make them appear. If she's on the Skins' side, she could have made those wounds herself!

Was Whitaker following Maria/Iz or was Whitaker there waiting for her?

Melodious

I think this has already been pondered, but I just have to say it. When Courtney says something to the pod squad & crew, that line about "No one is after Tess..." All I could think was, "Yeah, none of you Skins are "after her"... because she's ONE OF YOU." All of you royals are feeling sorry for her now... wishing you had accepted her into your little group from the beginning. Well kids, this is EXACTLY what we want. We WANT you to accept her completely and we know Maximilian will just heal all her cuts & scrapes anyway (hence warm up to his "young bride" a little). No harm, no foul. Tess may not be aware of what she really is now... when you LEAST suspect it, we'll make Tess remember what she REALLY is and she'll abide only to what WE say; because she's *always* known (subconsciously at least) she's not really one of you -not any part of Earth- and we have the spaceships that can send her back to OUR precious Twilo after we get what we want.

Sorry...rambling

Melodious

WOW-DOUBLE WOW!

I think your programing idea is possible. I really do! The advent of genetic engineering is already creating real "sci fi" situations with cloning. This might sound hard to believe now, but so did gene splicing a decade ago. I wish I had thought of it.

Also, I am glad you brought up the Courtney line "No one is after Tess". I never thought of Courtney meaning, after Tess from an evil alien side. I took her words literally. I started to warm up to Tess in Ask Not but what you said makes me feel ashamed that I feel some compassion for her.

Incrediable insights as always Mel!

Evid- My husband and I just finished having dinner at Pizza Hut where the discussion was in part what is the granolith. My thoughts were maybe it's a time machine. I told him I want to stop on the way home to post this thought (the computer I use is at my parents home). But... you beat me to it!!!

After seeing the intricacy of the pod chamber and the pressence of the granolith I am almost completely convinced that all this was put there before the 47 crash. I doubt they could have just waved their arm over the cave and it just all appeared.

Starstruck

remember Liz is Max's true Queen!!!

GraceKel and Palomino where are you???

As for Valenti carrying her, I suspect that he has been given the role of father figure for the Podsters. He is by far the eldest of the "in" crowd, old enough to be their father; and the Sheriff is an authority figure. It's appropriate for the "father" to be carrying the injured child. He may also be stronger than Max or Michael; notice that Katherine was having trouble lugging poor Emilie.

The "revalations" of CW? She's an enemy, trying to overwhelm Isabel. Hardly a reliable source! She may have told Tess the same story, trying to get her cooperation. Why would Tess have called to Isabel? Probably because, of all the podsters, she's most able to receive thoughts. Neither Max nor Michael seem to have any special mental talents (except M&L, and only when in physical contact). She probably wasn't able to get through to anyone else.

Courtney? Kinky. Someone that obviously bad has to have some good in her. She may turn out to be a Good Guy after all. They do talk in front of her, don't they? He-llowww! (She does seem to have some Podian abilities, too. Hmmm.)

And yes, the Max & Isabel scene is odd, but I suspect some clumsy line-cutting there. The Isabel monolog at the end is more out of character. Since when does our calm, rational Iz start talking to the walls, and expecting an answer?

The gran-o-lith, or stepping stone: I'd guess it's a gateway of some sort, possibly leading back to Skinland and/or Twilo. CW couldn't remain here in her form... so she had to go! Back, that is, to somewhere she could survive. Why not use a spaceship, like the others? Maybe the Skins travel differently than the Twilonians.

One other thing: Someone posted a "minor" spoiler here a couple pages back. Please don't! I saw Surprise on Saturday, but didn't even post Isabel's correct age during a discussion. Let's be careful!

The gran-o-lith, or stepping stone: I'd guess it's a gateway of some sort, possibly leading back to Skinland and/or Twilo. CW couldn't remain here in her form... so she had to go! Back, that is, to somewhere she could survive. Why not use a spaceship, like the others? Maybe the Skins travel differently than the Twilonians.

One other thing: Someone posted a "minor" spoiler here a couple pages back. Please don't! I saw Surprise on Saturday, but didn't even post Isabel's correct age during a discussion. Let's be careful!

Reggie: I hope that wasn't me that posted the spoiler.

1) Max/Isabel scene: Yes, very uncomfortably close. But maybe not because of (yew) sexual tensions, but because Max told Isabel that he would have to trust her insight. Isabel had told Max 2 hours earlier that she would "betray" his order to stay away from Grant. Having just heard what the CW said, assuming she wasn't lying, this is exactly what Max needs to tell her at this time. Maybe Valandra did betray her kind for a higher good. Just like she looked for Tess against leaders Max, Michael and Liz. I sort of thought when Max was speaking, he was telling Valandra also, "I have to trust your instincts." (corny :lol

If Isabel's former name was Valandra was Max's Valiant?

On the granolith gadget, you think you've got something about how she had to go back because she could not survive Earth. Could the podsters survive Twilo without the Granolith? could that be why they have it?

could it be?
Isabel = Valandra
Max = Valiant
Michael = Victim
Tess = Villian

Choi

If Grant Sorenson turns out to be EVIL well there goes my S's theory. Oh well! I wish I had something new to add but it seems like everyone got every clue there was already out of the episode. Starstruck I thought of you and me when I saw the REDS lol!!!

I loved Alex's little dance---this episode needed that blast of lightheartedness desperately.
I didn't like them making it Isabels birthday without really explaining it---it doesn't really make sense at all to me.
I didn't like that Isabel can melt down a door but she could not change her gown into a pair of PANTS come on...

I loved when Maria says "Oh boo hoo" about Tess being missing--cuz that pretty much summed up the way I felt about her being missing--because there are many others I would rather see on the screen than her.

I feel Roswell is just turning into a fast paced action figure show--instead of a rich character driven show-with SCI FI TWIST. I hope I am wrong.

I did notice that GS called Max, Deputy DOG, undeserving DOG, groveling dog, I guess he is definitely from the dog clan huh? As in Riverdog?

Hmmm, yes, and she knew that only Isabel would get those thoughts:

quote:from White Room:
ALEX: Wait, what about that dream thing that you can do?

TESS: What dream thing?

ISABEL: Sometimes I can go into people’s heads when they’re sleeping.

TESS: And you can all do that?

MICHAEL: No, just Isabel.

TESS: And you can communicate with him?

ISABEL: Subconsciously. I’ve only done it a few times though.
But was Tess really injured? Or was it a plan? Or was it a plan that she got lured into (perhaps with the promise of having Max?) only to find she had "sacrificed herself" just as CW says Valandra did.

Regardless, I still say Courtney was obviously giving Isabel the headaches at least, if not the visions.

Oh but GraceKel, you know how this younger generation is, they can't sew a stitch!

Okay - that made my night!! I can sleep now. Oh, and Redhawk - Thanks for the picture (I love how they move!), and I take notes on the second watching, too!

Grace Kel - even though you don't feel like you have much to add, I always enjoy your take on things!

I hope next weeks episode helps fill in some details!!

Zero (Night all!)

iz's vision of tess in the crashdown screaming reminded me way too much of the vision tess gave her in "white room," which has ALWAYS bothered me. after "surpise" i re-watched some eps and this line from 4S jumped out at me:

TESS: You’re so lucky to have such a wonderful family, Isabel. There’s so many happy memories.

after the cw tries to have iz remember betraying her family, that just seemed significant.

one more thing: in "wr" pierce had to drug max to keep him from using his powers. so why wouldn't tess have been able to use hers against the cw? this seemed odd, especially since she's been developing them for so long with Nasedo. they are definitely going to need to explain that one!

I know this is not specifically about Liz - but I do think that the issue of Tess's authenticity directly relates.

Sooo much information thrown at us in one episode. Yikes. I had to watch it again and take notes (yes, I take notes. ).
I take notes too! I have a special little Roswell note book!

quote:Courtney says, "Trust me, no one is after Tess." How revealing!?! Hmm. Shouldn't the skins be after Tess if she is a podian? I felt like Courtney was perhaps giving Isabel the visions of Tess in trouble to lead Isabel out to the power plant to be confronted by VW. That would mean though that Courtney and VW are in cahoots and maybe even Tess.

You know, it weird... When I watched Surprise again, I sitll didn't catch the oddness of Courtney saying that about Tess. But now that you mention it, it does seem pretty odd. They should be after all the podsters if they are the bad guys...hmm...More credence to the Tess is not all that she seems to be theory. I don't think Courtney was giving Is that visions, but I definitely think she knew what was going on... I think they kidnapped Tess to get Is there. CW was probably lying about getting the wrong one... Tess was the one they picked up, because she was the one who was by herself more often. Is always had one of the guys around her. She lives with one of them!

quote: happy thoughts to leave you with today...

notice Max's hand on Liz's neck and the V formation in the background.
[/B]

Oh Yes! Very happy thoughts! Thank you soooooo much Redhawk! And welcome back!

Oh, I was just watching the first three eppy's again and there's a couple things that I noticed...

S&B: When the "I know an alien club" was meeting and Max said "Nobody's going to dye...We're not killing anyone." There was a sticker on the lockers behing his head that said "Freestyle." Does that mean that Max is going to do this leading thing his own way "freestyle?" not taking orders from anyone else.

A/N: the same sticker showed up behind his head when he was telling Is to stay away from Grant.
When Max was going into the UFO Center the words "Defence" and "Authority" were right underneath the UFO Center sign. Also inside the UFO Center the was the word "Refuge" (I think that was noticed by someone else). Also, when the podsters left the UFO center , the word "Shelter" is seen behing them on the wall of the building. I think this tells us that Brody's research and the resources at the UFO Center are going to be valuable later...and it could be a place of hiding for them all in times of trouble...(?)

There was something else, but I can't remember though... Man I need to get to class... later!

BTW - all discussion about Tess is relevant to Liz since the Tess/Max relationship is an important part of mythology and how Liz ultimately fits in!!

Also - a reminder - no spoilers. Though some of us (me included - though I wish I could resist) are a bit spoiled, we are trying to keep this clean of spoilers. However, previews that have been aired or scripts (with deleted scenes) of episodes that have been aired are welcome to be discussed.

Okay - off to work!!

Zero

Valenti could not be stronger then Max or Michael. Remember on 285 South when Michael pushed Kyle and he was thrown clear across the room, and Max on Destiny when he knocked out the FBI agent with one punch. They looked alot stronger then any humen I've seen. As for Iz we have not seen her use her strenght before but if she is advanced she should have still been able to carry Tess with ease. I guess the writers didn't think of this.
I think the writers have been abducted and they have been replaced with drones. Where is the heart in soul of Roswell? I guess, lost in the Alien Abyss.

Evid

Well I came up with two things---neither were from SURPRISE I don't know if they mean anything or not but when Whittaker came into the office in ASK NOT You could clearly see the word or part of a word VINT---So of course I thought of Vanessa, Isabel, Nasedo, and Tess????
The other thing I noticed was in that same office behind Liz is a sign which reads "VISITORS WELCOME"-----Now there are only two people I have heard called VISITORS on this show, NASEDO and MICHAEL---are they welcome in WHITTAKERS OFFICE-and if so why? wyaOTRSs

I think that there could be some possible hidden meaning there, don't you? Maybe she's the hybrid that hatched early and she became human Hmmmm... 4-EVER!

I have agreed with those who have felt that this war was a civil one. So we have two "races" of the same people fighting. In order to achieve peace they "unite" royalty from both factions, Tess and Max, but they both have "loves" and Tess betrays both sides by choosing her "lover". Ending the peace and their lives. Courtney stated that no one was after Tess... why? Well, if she is the royalty of the skins and "belongs with them" according to CW, then they wouldn't wish to hurt her. So, if the skins worked together to capture Tess and see what she knows, but Isabel steps in and CW thinks maybe she was mistaken and Tess isn't "Valandra". So, she begins to question her. However, what if Tess IS Valandra. Then the above theory remains solid. CW mentioned that Valandra betrayed her brother, but didn't say who her brother was...Michael maybe?

The momagram spoke to "her" children, in their other lives Max and Tess were already married, and Michael and Isabel were "intended", so M/T were married for politics while M/I maybe for love? Although,I suppose that if Isabel is Valandra then Grant could be her great love.

Although I like the idea that the real Tess died and her essence was placed in an human baby (Liz) and Tess is a decoy or replacement. That would explain why she didn't "pass" the tests of CW, who is now wrongly assuming that Isabel is Valandra. The problem with that is then Liz would be the one to betray. I don't like that...Although, in a way she has, she is responsible for the "I know an alien" club. What do you all think?

And just for the record, I thought CW was referring to the other three meaning the other three skins, not podsters...but didn't tape it, grrr, so I can't go back and hear it all again.

One last thought, what if Whitaker isn't dead? What if her skin was all thatwas destroyed? We know that they can be invisible or chameleon-like, so she could have dissapeared in the mess of floating skin. Just a thought...

~Sheri

I agree with you Star that there seem to be similarities between Tess' abilities and Courtney's (a known Skin). I like your thoughts about CW/Courtney's relationship being similar to Harding/Tess'. Although, I can't be certain Harding was a Skin/Skin supporter (if that's what you're implying). I do think Tess is a Skin or spy of some kind, but possibly she herself has no idea what she is (if Harding was Podian), he probably didn't know either (If he was Podian, he was diddling a Skin and had no clue, wouldn't surprise me at all Tess' Skin-ness slipping by him). Tess planted in the possibly empty Young Bride chamber? Although why would it have been empty? The young bride was taken by the Skins? Or did she hatch VERY prematurely and escape the chamber? I still think Sheila Hubble might have been the "young bride".

This goes back to all the theories on programming. Tess could be *programmed* (by Skins) to believe she's a podster (so that when she *connected* with someone, it wouldn't accidentally slip out that she's not what she appears). Tess believes she's a podster; season 1 she seemed to be genuinely pained about the situation she was in (Max/Mi/I won't accept her and Harding is pressuring her to make them accept their "destiny"). The Skins might have also created/planted that "alien book" Tess has (convenient how some of the symbols in it are similar to the ones on those Skin beeper things). However, the *programming* is obviously not 100% accurate, although very close (which could be an explanation why Max's memories prior Tess are different from the ones he has when T arrives).

Also, I think you have something Star with your comparison between Michael's seeming attraction to Courtney and Max's attraction to Tess... eerily similar. I wonder if Mike is going to start having very compromising/intense fantasies soon?? What's with Skin females?? Are they the Mata Hari race or something!?

The thing is -for some strange reason- I still kind of like Courtney; a gut feeling is telling me she might not turn out to be so bad. Despite her seemingly obvious similarities with Tess (and I completely distrust Tess). Am I insane?

Something else I've been pondering is that I believe Isabel assumes CW killed "Nasedo", but CW never actually answers her (I believe?). What I'm still wondering is if Harding and Nasedo are actually the same SSer? I'm still hanging on to the TicTac=Nasedo theories. So when Isabel assumes CW killed Nasedo, does Whitaker know who she's referring to... does she assume it's Harding? Or could CW have known that Harding / Nasedo were two different entities? I assume Whitaker believed she knew who Nasedo is/was (Pierce presumedly knew). But even then, I still don't think that concretely means Harding = Nasedo.

Have there been any new speculations on who killed Sheila Hubble? I probably need to go back and read this thread more closely, but I think with all these "Liz might be Vilandra", "Tess is a Skin" speculations, I wonder where Sheila Hubble fits into the whole alien mythos and with Liz?? I certainly hope her death isn't going to simply be shoved under the rug... it seems to big a hole to do that. (this is really wishful thinking though)

Melodious

SONG OF THE FLIGHT by Nezahualcoyotl

In vain I was born.
In vain I left the house of god and came to Earth.
I am so wretched!

I wish I'd never come to Earth. But what is there to do?

Do I have to live among the people?
Princes, tell me?!

Do I have to stand on Earth? What is my destiny? My heart suffers.
You were hardly my friend here on earth, Life Giver.

Does He who sustains and lifts men have no discretion?

Go, friends, live in peace, pass your life in calm!

While I live with my head bent down when I am among the people.
How do you decide your heart, Life Giver?

Already your anger is vanishing, your compassion welling!
I am at your side, God. Do you plan my death?

Is it true we take pleasure, we who live on Earth?
It isn't certain that we live, much less that we have come to enjoy ourselves on Earth?

We are all so filled with grief.

Are bitterness and anguish the destiny of the people of Earth?

But do not anguish, my heart!

I only look forward, I remember our friends.
Perhaps they will come one more time,
perhaps they will return to life?
Or only once do we perish, only one time here on Earth?

If only our hearts did not suffer! next to; at your side, Life Giver.

Melodious

Someone said they had a good feeling about Courtney, better than about Tess. So do I. Again, no evidence, just a hunch that whatever role she plays, not everything she does will turn to evil. (Isn't turning water into coke, if not on the miracle A-list, something constructive rather than destructive? Probably not a clue to future behavior, but it is possible.)

Finally, I really like Surprises so I also would appreciate not coming across spoilers here.

Well, I have a funny story from Monday night. Okay, at the time it was frightening. As usual, I had the VCR all set up and ready to go ten minutes before Roswell. And everything seemed to be fine. Well, Roswell starts going at eight and I press record. My VCR start taping and 30 seconds later stops. My poor little heart stops. I run up to the VCR and press record again and the VCR makes this terrible whirring noise. And I thought, "Oh no, I've gracekelled my VCR to death!" I'm yelling up to my husband who was in the other room watching Monday night football (he watches Roswell with me on Friday night from our tape). He comes rushing down. ...Afterall, he knows how obsessed I am with Roswell. And we keep trying to press record, but it automatically stops after 30 seconds everytime. Luckily, I thought maybe our poor old VCR just doesn't like this tape. So I grab another new one and shove it into the spot, press record, and wait. Whew! It tapes and I still get part of the beginning dream segment with Isabel. I was thanking my lucky stars that the opening segment wasn't M/L. Needless to say, I asked my husband if a new VCR was in order. And he says he has been telling me needed a new one for the last two years. Roswell=newVCR

Anyway, I just had to share that. I thought you all could probably relate.

Well, Surprise was definitely a surprise for me. It was overwhelmingly packed with info and to me felt very choppy. It wasn't nearly as smooth and seamless as past episodes. The only other ep I thought was choppy was Crazy. But that is just my opinion.

I was very surprised by Surpise because I never thought Isabel would turn out to be the traitor. There were never any serious clues to lead us to this conclusion. Although, that may be because it was her essence that betrayed and not the "human" Isabel. I thought her only downfall would be her vanity. But that just goes to show what I know. I do like surprises and bends in the curve, but I appreciate a few clues leading up to it, no matter how subtle. This new knowledge of Isabel just seems out of character. oh well, who knows! I always expected the weak link to be Tess or Michael. But that is just my opinion.

Okay, you remember a few threads back when we were talking about communism (that was on this thread wasn't it?). Someone needs to refresh my memory on our discussion. Anyway, did you notice the reds sign.
Reds=communisn ....red scare, etc.
And speaking of war, someone (sorry, I can't remember who) mentioned that Grant's b-day was the day Pearl Harbor was bombed. So...
Dec.7th=War breaks out.

Thank you for the info on "Run Lola Run". I'm so glad someone knew what the movie was about. I just knew they dropped that particular one as a clue.

I was also disturbed by how Isabel is now 18 years old. I could have sworn she was 16 last season. Although, I'm never sure if I'm getting the tv show and the books mixed up.

On the granolith: I thought it had to be some type of regeneration device. But then when they showed it, it immediately reminded me of the elevator in some of the Star Trek shows. At which point, I thought it might be some means of transport. Hmm... Guess we'll have to wait and find out.

I thought it was interesting all the new powers or variations of powers that showed up in this ep. We now know that the Skins have some similar powers to the podians.
1. Courtney changes the molecular structure of the soda.
2. VW opens the steel door by sliding the bolts back (lots of glow like Michael's power).
3. VW has the ability to move large objects(Tess) with force like Michael does.
4. VW somehow starts the power line up, spurting electricity toward Isabel. (Why would she try to kill Isabel and Tess if she wants the Granolith so bad?)
5. Isabel cuts a hole in the door with her power. (Why doesnt' she just unlock it like she usually does with locks?)
6. Isabel pushes the electricity back toward VW. (Is this a mental power because she closes her eyes or is she just concentrating?)

Hmm... so much to think about.

Pretty soon I'm going to start chanting "Where's Liz?" again. I miss Liz, probably because I identify with her the most. So "Where is LIZ?"

Okay, sorry that was so long. TTYL

**** I am not sure what I think Harding is/was? I think I am leaning towards that he was a podster-supporting skin. Maybe. But his actions seem to be far from benevolent.
I am not sure WHAT he was up to. But it seems that if he was really being helpful that he would have given the podsters much more information. Also - seems kind of like he was working with CW to some extent.
Personally - I dont think Tess ever WAS in the young bride chamber. I feel like the original memories that M/M/I had during balance were authentic - and the four square "revisions" were the result of Tess planting images. I also think every "Flash" Max had of him and Tess together were mind-warp (notice how he hasnt had a single one since learning that Tess can play that little trick).
What happened with the young Bride chamber? I dont know. But I am sure that whoever it was that was supposed to be in there somehow links back to Liz.

I really need to watch this ep again; I didn't realize there was already water in those glasses Courtney ran her little miraculous hand over. I really think that could have been a little clue from the writers/TPTB that Courtney is actually (or could turn out to be) a good guy. Although the biblical figure in question was a martyr who was sacrificed for the sins of a world... might this also be significant?

Melodious

StarBox- Your comparison of Tess and Courtney is vry accurate. I'd never thought about it that way. Thanks for enlightening me!

redhawk and Roswellrox- I have a Roswell notebook too!! Do you think they'd give us a group rate for therapy for obssesive compulsive behavior?

Evid- about Max's strength, remember too when he hit the bathroom stall wall and it fell in on Michael. Without alien strength he couldn't have done that! I think that you, and Grace Kel and I are all feeling the same. Have evil aliens captured the writers?

redhawk- LMAO about your Roswell= new VCR story! Isn't it nice to have patient husbands. I lost my husband to Monday night football as well. The guys rotate houses to watch football and I told him I'm sorry but as long as Roswell is on Monday nights they're banned from our house! I make it up to him by sending good snacks with him. Anyway even though he gets home quite late from football he always has to watch as soon as he gets home.He'd never admit to anyone that he enjoys this show that much though!

OK now getting down to business. I've been pondering over weather or not Harding and VW new what and who each other were. My reasons for thinking they may have are these;

Harding says- "I must admit I've grown awfully fond of the FOUL TEMPTRESS. It's a shame I may now have to kill her." The foul temptress makes it sound like he knew what she was. I know it could be said he called her that because she stood up against Pierce in the Congressional hearings, but I think it's more than that.

Also this conversation :
Pierce/Harding-"Don't let polotics come between us."
Whitaker-"Polotics is the reason you slept with me to begin with."
Pierce/Harding-"Well, maybe at first. It's more than that now. You showed me a side of myself ...I didn't know existed."

This makes me think that their relationship may have been based on mutual gain. If that was the case it seams like they would have known that they were on opposing political sides.

Also, why wouldn't Harding have told Max in his dying breaths that it was VW that did him in. This can be looked at two ways. He was defending her to the end, or it wasn't VW that killed him.

Starstruck

Remember Liz is the true Queen!

WELL THATS MY RANT FOR THE EVENING.

OH REDHAWK-yes the idea of Isabel betrayal coming out of nowhere I so agree, I am sure the powers that be are very much aware that we have analyzed everything to death and I cannot recall one person ever finding a clue or a hint of this EVER----so either the show is not FOLLOWING its clues or this is all a bunch of CRAP being made up by aliens with their own agendas, I hope its the latter.
Now that I think of it behind Isabel in S and B eppy at Michaels apartment I thought they were referring to Grant when they showed this but maybe it was for Isabel --it clearly showed the words SERVED KING ONLY.

Evid

Evid - I'm sure hoping they don't gut the soul out of the storyline in favor of "enhanced sci-fi" - especially since there are soooooooo many wonderful scenarios that incorporate both excellent sci-fi storylines and relationship development. I think those who have posted their theories on this thread have been very creative, while keeping the science fiction in the forefront. I'm hoping we have a group of writers that can tell a wonderful story without lowering themselves to the "90201" style of relationship hopping - I personally dislike the lowest-common denominator approach to storytelling, and am hoping that we don't end-up with that. Okay - time to step down from the soap box - except to repeat my slogan "Together - Max and Liz are an awesome force to reckon with!!" Things will just not be the same if they are kept apart, and Liz is kept in the background!

Zero

WELL THATS MY RANT FOR THE EVENING.

GraceKel I still think is not an I've just been to lazy to type it out and I can't put it the smilies into my signature.

I am frankly having a tough time keeping up with the level off thought going on anymore. I literally watched the general surprise thread add 3 pages in 30 minutes. This thread is the same way. Pages are added so fast!

I think that there could be some possible hidden meaning there, don't you? Maybe she's the hybrid that hatched early and she became human Hmmmm... 4-EVER!

To build on that thought - in Surprise when Max and Iz are fighting over whether Iz can date Grant - she says something about Max not being able to date Liz without keeping his mouth shut, and Max said "that was different!" Again - Max instinctively puts Liz in a category separate from all other humans. It is as if something in him has always know she is different - and that she always will be!

Zero

If Isabel's former name was Valandra was Max's Valiant?

On the granolith gadget, you think you've got something about how she had to go back because she could not survive Earth. Could the podsters survive Twilo without the Granolith? could that be why they have it?

Ah! That makes sense about Max/Isabel. I didn't get that.

We've wondered how the podsters (here), were supposed to defeat their planetary enemies (there). How do they get there?
Maria: "Well, Michael, why don't you just steal something?"

Mom's folks probably figured that they'd need some transportation. As long as they've got the pod chamber secured, wouldn't it be the logical place to put other supplies? I'd look around that back room. There may be some other useful stuff back there. Like a Twilo-English dictionary, a copy of The Plan, etc.

Reggie: I don't think the podster folks really put a lot of thought into anything. The Destiny Plan is up there with world's most improbable save the universe missions. I agree with the "low-budget" POV that this was the only thing they could afford to implement.

One thing I can say about the granolith, it's nice to see the podster's have an upper hand over something the EA want! They didn't even know they had it. I thought it pretty unfair that the EA knew more about the podsters than they did. It's refreshing to see the EA grovel for something.

RedHawk, we think alike (maybe it's from working many hours in Photoshop?)--anyway, inspiration : The Skins had originally intended to transport back to Twilo via the granolith either to get re-shinned or to trade off with fresh recruits. But Nasedo managed to hide it.

I also want to comment about "Run, Lola, Run." I think it is an interesting clue. Maybe the writers plan to take us down alternate storylines - if x occurs, than y happens. It made me think about the movie "Sliding Doors." I don't want to ruin the story for anyone who has not seen it, BUT it also deals with alternate stories based on whether the heroine makes a subway train or misses it. I won't say what happens, but just that what seems like the desired storyline ultimately has a tragic turn, and the less desireable storyline has the potentially happy ending. Maybe that is what the writers are doing here, leading us down an - apparently - undesired storyline (Tess/Max w/ less Liz) with the plan to make it all work out in the end. I just don't know if I can emotionally deal with that.

Zero
"Where's Liz?" (Thought I'd start the chant again!! )

Zero,

I have a strong feeling that this is an alternate timeline. Too much strangeness so far.

Rosta

Qfanny - I think we're starting to form a solid theory on this eye color thing. Although, I just don't know what the writers are up to with Tess. They seem to be writing her much more sympatheticly lately. She whines a lot less. And the writers seem to want us to feel sorry for her. But I still don't know if I trust her. The writers could be trying to get us to trust her and then WHAM! they reverse themselves and we find out we were right all along. I'm still having a hard time separating my bias from her, so I guess we'll have to wait and see.
By the way, you're not the only one having a hard time keeping up with the threads. Yikes! I used to be able to read three threads regularly and now I can barely keep up with one.

GraceKel - You're not the only one who wants to rant lately! Feel free, by the way. I don't mind one bit. I so enjoy getting Liz's point of view i.e. the human one on the action that is going on in Roswell. grr...

Originally posted by GraceKel:
quote:so either the show is not FOLLOWING its clues or this is all a bunch of CRAP being made up by aliens with their own agendas, I hope its the latter.
I'm definitely hoping it is the latter, otherwise this is not good storytelling.

Zero - I also thought of "Sliding Doors" when someone explained what "Run Lola Run" was about. If the writers are doing something like this, I sure hope I will be able to see what is tangibly going on. I'm getting tired of being confused. And I so hope they don't do a Dallas number on us and Max suddenly wakes up back in the desert by Liz in SH. "It all was a dream, just a bad, bad dream."

In Surprize, I didn't even connect the other three to the podsters, I thought that it referred to some other evil aliens. However, I just came up with a thought, the other three excludes T*** Or is it 1 hidden & 4 showing.
Also, Grant's birthday, 12-7 = 5. Fives popping out of the woodwork..

For an TV absentee mom, I loved it when Liz's Mom said, "What year?" & "Not right now but sometime soon, we're going to have a long talk..." Her reaction to Alex's dance & his embarrasment was too funny...... When are Liz's parents going to surface? Particularly when Liz's Mom made a big issue about being there to protect.... her. Sounds Like Nasedo who wanted to protect.... hmnnnn.... isn't the FBI's motto to serve and protect.....

It's those brain skews from Statistics again. Panola

Whoa! I didn't see that one coming. How about this one too..

12/7 Grants birthday
1*2*7=14
1+4=5

I thought that Courtney saying, "This is your night," to Iz didn't mean her Happy Happy Joy Joy night but rather... horrible events were planned for Iz.

Liz certainly caught the drawer locking action of CW fast. That's Our Gal Liz!!
Who knows what evil lurks in the heart of man. The shadow knows....
RBI's over and out!!
Panola

I saw this pic and my jaw hit my chest and I got the chills. Remember one of the posters saw an Alien over Liz's face on BD and only a few of us saw it, I never did. Well look below and let me know what you see. This is from the beginning of Destiny.

One more thing I wanted to add. On the song Crash Into Me by the Dave Matthews Band their is a lyric that now stands out. Remember this was played at the end of the Pilot when Max and Liz are up on the hill.

I'm the King of the castle your my dirty rascal.
I think this one speaks for it's self.

Evid

BUT the real reason I am posting is to bump us off the second page!!!

So here it goes....

~Sheri

Panola: I didn't take in to consideration that some monitors might not pick it up.
Ok, if you look toward your right side, her left, beside her face you will see a ghostly image of what looks to me like an alien, you can only see half it's face. The forehead of the Alien is next to Liz's forehead. The eye of the Alien starts at Liz's eye and ends at the tip of her nose, it's chin and mouth are resting on her shoulder. Please people tell me if you see it, or have I really gone overboard?

Evid

Here are my thoughts about Liz as Vilandra and the alternate destiny idea:

First - about the alternate destinies. I think that "Run Lola Run" is different from "Sliding Doors" in that in "Run Lola Run" you have a sense of characters actually re-living the same basic events with only minor changes in order to reach the desired outcome. Its almost like Lola gets to keep trying until she gets things right. I think the use of this reference points more to the idea that Liz (and the others) are in a sense "replaying" events that happened before in hopes of a different outcome. I think there is even a strong possibility that they could have replayed them twice already - once on the home planet - once during the crash/Hubble/Nasedo killings era - and now once again. In either case - the clear indication is that Liz is as much a part of Max's PAST as she is his present (and future).

Now - on Liz as Vilandra.
Remember it is an EA that talks about the graet love in terms of a betrayal of ones people. My initial reaction to CW's little confession to Isabel is that she was saying that Vilandra was a skin who fell in love with Max and betrayed her people (meaning her brother is an unnamed EA out there). Notice the was she said "You were one of US, and you were so beautiful". This also explains why she was looking for someone romantically linked to Max not his sister. I think the betrayer was Max's lover and that the betrayal was against the EA - not against the podsters. Which makes much more sense.
Also - this fits into the Romeo and Juliet theme. That Max and Liz are from two feuding races. Perhaps Liz was fully disguised as a human somehow to protect her from being discovered by her people - the EA.

If the Granolith is indeed a wormhole creator, then I MUST go back to all those former theories on time travel. The shooters in the Crashdown... could they have been Skins (from the future - a future where Skins have found the Granolith or made one of their own?) who wanted to eliminate Liz?

Why would they want to eliminate Liz?? My personal opinion (and from Star's theory above, I don't think I'm alone in believing this), as opposed to the former theories of Liz simply being the "destiny" roadblock hence assassination atttempt; what if Liz is Vilandra (or the carrier of Vilandra's essence)? The future Skins (or the present Skins) know this?

I don't believe the story Whitaker told Iz was 100%. I do believe there was possibly a traitor, but I don't believe it was Vilandra. Something happened (a big conspiracy) in the past life where everyone was led to believe Vilandra was a traitor and Whitaker (the Skins) want to continue this falacy on Earth. They (Skins & Podians who possibly wanted war rather than peace?), in the past life, wanted everyone to believe Queen Vilandra was a traitor to separate her (peaceful influence) from King Max.

I agree with Star that I think Vilandra was Max's lover (or wife - the one who influenced his decisions the most). Because someone betrayed her (on either the Podian and/or Skin side). Everyone, inc. Max, lost faith in her and possibly exiled her (because he still loved her too much to kill her)... to Earth? Four generations later, Liz Parker comes into the picture; carrying Vilandra's essence. With Vil's influence gone, Skins & Podians went to war. To the dismay of the Podians, they lost. The Royal Four (King Max, 2nd in Command Michael, Princess Iz and the King's new wife, Tess) were all recreated as human hybrids and sent to the only other place there's a Granolith... Earth (Podians knowing Vilandra died long ago, but not realizing her essence lived on).

Vil's heart remained faithful to only Max and continued loving him exiled on Earth even after losing his faith in her (this love is still carried in Liz). Vil (recreated simply as human?) married a human and had children, hence starting the Parker family line (in Roswell)? So Liz, is entirely human but carries Vilandra's (an alien) essence. A (dormant) essence Max's essence recognized the first moment he saw Liz and which he awakened once *connecting* with her. This "alien side" (from contact with Max) is very slowly awakening / changing Liz?

Depending on the truth to Whitaker's story, Why would these aliens want to kill Liz/Vilandra if she supposedly betrayed the Podians for their cause? They know, in the least, Vilandra was the key to the alien destiny and also possibly the bridge between the Skins and the Podians (had she not been betrayed; there might never have been a war). This "traitor" story could be a ploy. An attempt to taint Vilandra in the eyes of the Earth Royal Four from the getgo (Skins either don't realize Iz isn't Vilandra or they KNOW she isn't Vilandra, but they at least wanted to plant the "Vilandra was a traitor" story, so it's now in at least Iz's [& Tess'?] mind). I'm waiting for Tess to have some Vilandra memory. However, if Vilandra WAS Max's lover/wife then Tess might be reluctant to devulge this information (endangering her place amongst the podsters). Or it could all be something much simpler? (I'm obviously brainwashed by everything but simple answers at the moment ).

Before I go any further, I'm just going to stop with this speculating, because it is probably more appropriate for fanfic (it's wallowing in fantastical as opposed to anything realistic).

Melodious

If the Granolith is indeed a wormhole creator, then I MUST go back to all those former theories on time travel. The shooters in the Crashdown... could they have been Skins (from the future - a future where Skins have found the Granolith or made one of their own?) who wanted to eliminate Liz? The future Skins (or the present Skins) know this?

Why would they want to eliminate Liz?? My personal opinion (and from Star's theory above, I don't think I'm alone in believing this), as opposed to the former theories of Liz simply being the "destiny" roadblock hence assassination atttempt; what if Liz is Vilandra (or the carrier of Vilandra's essence)?

********************************************

Melodious - I think you have some interesting speculations about the possible role of Vilandra.
I think that the EA must be looking for Vilandra (as opposed to simply wanting to kill the podsters). I think perhaps Harding was looking for her too (hence the "stake-out" of the podsters). He may have begun to suspect (or realize) who Liz really was when he kissed her - causing him to change his mind and save her and not Max from the funhouse. Obviously there is something more than just trying to kill M/I/M (I dont include Tess since "no one is after her" <g> )

Now the question that remains is - why are the EA wanting to find Vilandra? They want her to give them Granolith? I dont know.
Maybe CW realized that Isabel was not Vilandra too - and that was why she changed her mind about killing her.

Okay - enough rantings - time to pick my son up from school.
:-)

Evid~ That is an awesome catch on that picture! I SEE IT! What was the other picture you were talking about with an alien by Liz in shadow? Do you have that one too?

Starbox and Melodious~ Great ideas about Iz being Max's lover/bride in the other life, and betraying the Skins and then being framed for betraying the Podians! I totally didn't catch on to anything like that. When CW said "You were one of US" I thought she meant that IZ was concidered to be one of THEM because she betrayed Max (her brother)... But who knows... I like your ideas...

Melodious~ I too am leaning very much in favor of the time travel theory...I want to spoil sooo bad here, but I will restrain myself...

Anywayz, I'll stop now... I don't have anything profound to add... My brain just can't can't seem to keep up with everybody else's lately...

Roswellrox

Anywayz, I'll stop now... I don't have anything profound to add... My brain just can't can't seem to keep up with everybody else's lately...

Yes, please DON'T. They don't call them "spoilers" for nothing. No wonder you can't keep up; you have to keep the spoiler knowlege seperate from the public knowlege, and draw conclusions only from the public stuff even though you know the spoiler stuff. Remember:

This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

StarBox I don't know if you are just joining us but Nemo, Rockowery and myself had this theory for quite some time(a possible scenario) that Max's bride was from an enemy race and possibly aliens on both sides were opposed to this and that SOME WAY SOMEHOW Liz ended up with this brides essense whether she had been killed in the crash of she broke out of pod early or pod was tampered with or somehow. This would explain why Max recognized her getting off the bus when he was six years old and Liz smiled back at him(RECOGNITION OF SOULS) and how FATE brought them together. I still think this is a great possibility.
However that said,
I also think that whatever HUMAN DNA that was used to create Max could have also had a DESTINY and maybe that is why he is attached to the very human Liz? I think either of these work---the only thing I AM SURE OF IS THAT----THEY BETTER EXPLAIN THAT SENSE OF RECOGNITION SOMEDAY!!! BECAUSE IT HAPPENED LONG B4 the RECONNECTION SCENE IN THE PILOT.

Oh and Starbox LOL in not including Tess cuz no one is after her, it made me chuckle.

I know the "Liz as an alien" theories are sometimes looked down on, but bear with me because this is sort of a cheesy romantic view.

Something has been bothering me about Tess's memories since they are so focused specifically on her and Max romantically. In "Ask Not" when Max and Tess were walking they discussed the fact that Max remembers nothing of his past life, and Tess replied that Nacedo "taught" her how to remember by using certain memory retrieval techniques. What if they weren't retrieval techniques, but instead suggestions placed by Nacedo of memories that happened to someone else...memories of Max's real bride?

Many questions have been raised as to why it would be necessary for Mom to regenerate the essence of Max's wife and what her role is supposed to be in The Plan. Well, in human history the best way to defeat a king is to take that which he loves most away from him. Max would be way more vulnerable without his true love by his side and easier to defeat if she weren't with him.

So what if Nacedo felt it necessary to create the allusion that Tess was Max's bride mistakenly thinking his wife had perished.

We all know Nacedo sucked as a Podyguard since he lost track of three 6-year-old podsters. So it wouldn't be a stretch that something horrible might have happened to the fourth (i.e. kidnapped by skins and left for dead, discovered by humans, you name it).

With the fourth podster (Liz) pressumed dead, Nacedo could have created another hybrid (Tess) doing his best to duplicate Liz's essence in Tess. And later, by keeping Tess close to him, "teaching" Tess be the hybrid that was Max's wife in hopes of fooling Max into believing that he was/is not separated from his wife.

In otherwords, Tess doesn't have to be evil to not be Max's destiny. (And I can't believe I'm saying this because I HATE Tess.) But anyway, Tess may simply have been programmed to think and feel things that by destiny belong to Max and Liz. It certainly sort of makes Liz the "Anastasia" of podsters.

Of course, this still doesn't explain why Liz's saliva appears human...

As I turn my mind into trying to fit some of this into my theory, can someone help me with the way writers of current series work with past episodes and scenes from the cutting room floor.

If something was filmed ( and has appeared in threads, and web sites ) but has been cut from the aired episode, is it safe to assume that as such, the scene has no validity in the current plot line?

Now, on a lighter note. Way back, someone questioned Miltons wherabouts, and how unlikely it would be that he would sell UFO Center. In 'Monsters', Milton tells Max that the Center is just a "Tourist trap cash cow" and that "every penny goes into his research." So it seems feasible that he would sell up, so he can concentrate on his research.

So this begs the question. Is the gruesome image seen by Max in Ask Not symbolic of the death of the UFO Center?

WR

I have always seen Max and Liz’s relationship as a eternal Romeo and Juliet story that not only is threatened by society but by another constant protagonist as well.
What if their two souls constantly find each other lifetime after lifetime just to be separated again and again by the same repeating obstacles.

So far with everything that has been shown I see both of Max’s lives to be somewhat similar. The fact that he, Isabel and Michael stuck together all those years not only IMO represents similar species sticking together, but shows a never ending bond. Remember Michael was not around for the first couple of years and they felt his absence greatly. I think that those three were extremely close. Even though their were other important people in their lives I don’t think the three ever could live separate without feeling somewhat of an absence. They will always be the leader, the side kick and the peace maker. Even though Isabel supposedly betrayed Max I see it as more of a moment of weakness. I do not think that Michael and Isabel were ever suppose to be lovers and their engagement threw off some balance, making her rebel. Even now that the two know they were married in another life, they are making no attempt to follow the same path, they are still just the sidekick and the peacemaker.

Tess, I believe is the never ending protagonist, always showing up when things start to get better and throws a wrench in the works. Always a loner and always looking out for her best interests first. She wants so badly to believe that she has a place in this universe and will do anything to keep that fantasy alive. I do believe that her and Max were married in another life, but not by choice.

We don’t know much about the marriage customs of their planet but we know that Isabel’s and Micaheal’s relationship was not very stable. What if relationships were not based on love, they supposedly had no emotions. Nacedo said that humans are weak because of their emotions, maybe the pod squads planet was a society full of people who pretended they had no emotions. Only the weak expressed things like love and sadness. Nacedo seems like a prime example, he seems not to know how to express emotions but still capable of feeling emotions. Maybe Isabel rebelled against her unemotional society and fell in love outside her race. That would explain why she was willing to betray her brother, she was finally able to express emotions and didn’t want to lose that.

What she did not realize was that Max was also betraying the same universal law of their society. He had fallen in love with Liz and was sneaking around his planets back. What if he and LIz were found out and rather than admit that their leader was everything they despised, they killed Liz and forced him to marry someone they knew he could never love. That would quickly make a person cold hearted. Maybe the skins are a race of people that expressed emotions but in such a negative way that Max’s planet refrained from the very thought. The skins are evil but still had more freedom than Max’s people.

I believe also that Max and Liz find each other time after time, but things are always thrown in their way. It their last life, they couldn’t be together because love didn’t exist, and then Tess shows up. In their present life, the obstacle is that he is an alien while she is a human, and then Tess shows up. What if Max subconsciously realizes that this one soul is always screwing things up for him. He has made it obviousle that he would rather bludgeoned himself repeatedly with a blunt object than to fulfill his destiny. He is so bent on his relationship with Liz that there has to be more of a connection than just teenage love. Someone who falls in love at the age of eight and never falls out of that love even though they hardly had spoken the eight years they knew each other either is able to detect his soul mate or is mentally insane. His quote at the end of Ask Not reflects this, “I’m coming for you LIz”, what if he refuses to let anything get in his way this time. He already overcame the human-alien obstacle when he risked everything to save Liz, now he only has to prove that Tess is another irrelevancy. Maybe by refusing to go after his supposed destiny and following his heart will actually strengthen his planet, by showing that having emotions is not a weakness.

HJ

A friend of mine from work and I were talking about wouldn't it be funny if Mrs. Evans turned out to be Max and Isabels real mother. That some how she came down, but wasn't really sure about what to tell them until they were ready. I know it is kinda way of base, but I thought it was cute. It could explain why Isabel feels so close to her. Not to mention she has been in some very important eppies and not said anything because she was not sure of what they actually knew about themselves and their so called "destinies".

You guys don't fret too much about the Scifi stuff. They probably wanted to rap up w/what they started. Not that they have answered many questions anyways.

Those are interesting theories about the time travel thing. I wouldn't doupt if the Granilith is a wormhole or something. That would be a good way for them to travel from Earth to Twilo. Kinda like Contact w/Jodie Foster w/that weird globe thing.

Question-Do what the stars say in interviews count as spoilers. I am just wondering.

StarBox I don't know if you are just joining us but Nemo, Rockowery and myself had this theory for quite some time(a possible scenario) that Max's bride was from an enemy race and possibly aliens on both sides were opposed to this and that SOME WAY SOMEHOW Liz ended up with this brides essense whether she had been killed in the crash of she broke out of pod early or pod was tampered with or somehow. This would explain why Max recognized her getting off the bus when he was six years old and Liz smiled back at him(RECOGNITION OF SOULS) and how FATE brought them together. I still think this is a great possibility.
However that said,
I also think that whatever HUMAN DNA that was used to create Max could have also had a DESTINY and maybe that is why he is attached to the very human Liz? I think either of these work---the only thing I AM SURE OF IS THAT----THEY BETTER EXPLAIN THAT SENSE OF RECOGNITION SOMEDAY!!! BECAUSE IT HAPPENED LONG B4 the RECONNECTION SCENE IN THE PILOT.

Oh and Starbox LOL in not including Tess cuz no one is after her, it made me chuckle.[/B]

********************************************

Hey GraceKel,
Yup - I am just joining this board. I have been hopelessly attached to Roswell since the Pilot. I was a huge fan of My So Called Life and Relativity - so I watched Roswell from the beginning.
Last year I read a few message boards - but never found a place where I felt like posting - but this board is definately my kind of place. It was the Max/Liz relationship that immediately drew me in to Roswell. It is what sets the show apart from every other tv show out there. It is definately the heart and soul of Roswell and if they do anything to seriously screw with it I WILL stop watching.
<Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr>
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Anyway - I am an older fan - married mom of two absolutely beautiful kids <vbg>
I used to teach high school English.

:-) :-)

If something was filmed ( and has appeared in threads, and web sites ) but has been cut from the aired episode, is it safe to assume that as such, the scene has no validity in the current plot line?

Now, on a lighter note. Way back, someone questioned Miltons wherabouts, and how unlikely it would be that he would sell UFO Center. In 'Monsters', Milton tells Max that the Center is just a "Tourist trap cash cow" and that "every penny goes into his research." So it seems feasible that he would sell up, so he can concentrate on his research.

So this begs the question. Is the gruesome image seen by Max in Ask Not symbolic of the death of the UFO Center?

WR

WR - as far as the cut scenes go - we can't totally discount them, but ... Generally, when an episode final cut is being put together, the director is looking for scenes that "move" the storyline along within the time allowed. If a scene is wonderful, but it doesn't really add anything or move the story forward, it will be left on the cutting room floor. OR if the time issue comes up (episode runs too long), the least important scenes will be shortened or cut. As far as the overall storyline goes - that cut scene may be relevant, just not as important as others - so we can't discount it completely. I hope that makes sense, though I realize it doesn't totally answer you concern. From my point of view, cut scenes may be relevant because they tell us the mindset of the writers (AOT the director) - who ultimately will be writing future episodes. HOWEVER, occassionally in production, the writers and director will realize something is not working or mesh with a new directions they have decided to go even though the scene has be shot - so it gets cut.

Good info/insight on Milton - though I liked his character, and miss him.

Zero
Where's Liz?? (can someone send me the link to the new set of smiles??)

Hey GraceKel,
Yup - I am just joining this board. I have been hopelessly attached to Roswell since the Pilot. I was a huge fan of My So Called Life and Relativity - so I watched Roswell from the beginning.
Last year I read a few message boards - but never found a place where I felt like posting - but this board is definately my kind of place. It was the Max/Liz relationship that immediately drew me in to Roswell. It is what sets the show apart from every other tv show out there. It is definately the heart and soul of Roswell and if they do anything to seriously screw with it I WILL stop watching.
<Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr>
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)
Anyway - I am an older fan - married mom of two absolutely beautiful kids <vbg>
I used to teach high school English.

:-) :-)

Starbox - I loved Relativity - and that is why I watched Roswell from day one, because of the connection. I too will be sooooooo disappointed if they (TPTB) screw up the Max/Liz relationship.

BTW - love all the time travel theories - but they always raise one problem in my head :eyespin: - if you can go back and change one thing, why not change lots of stuff! Anyway - more on that later if the theories start to prove true???

Zero
Where's Liz?

Zero
Where's Liz?

About Liz as Vilandra. Harding says of Liz in the pod chamber, "she doesn't belong here." If Liz was Vilandra and a skin then perhaps Harding somehow knew.

WR- Thanks for your thoughts on Milton. I was the one questioning where he was and why he would sell. You helped settle this in my mind a little. I guess I was just hoping Milton would play a larger role in the big picture. He was quirky, but I liked him!

I was thinking we should start a list of the best ways to get rid of Tess. I'll start, feel free to add your creative ideas! :
Tess sneaks up to the pod chamber and is checking out the granolith when she somehow accidently sets it in motion. It sucks her into a giant wormhole where she is forever caught never able to wreak havoc on Liz and Max! :D

Starstruck

Remember- Liz is the true Queen!

I see the alien oh my god!! If you have the other photo like that please post it I think we are getting some major hints here I never noticed that before thanks for posting it

And :
quote:Originally posted by Reggie:
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

Definitely!

You know around the set they are pretty much keeping things bolted down about Liz, so that leads me to think that whatever they have planned must be major.

I agree that the reason Valenti was carrying Tess because he has a assumed a "father-role".

While, Isabel's monologue was a little long, I don't think it was out of character at all. Considering that she had just killed someone and been accused of betraying her family after directly disobeying her brother.

I find it entirely believable that Courtney was brought onto the show in order to bring a little unbalance to the show. We don't know which way she will turn, so it adds suspense. Valenti was used in the same way the first season.

As for the rest of the questions this ep brought up, there are so many scenarios that I'm not even going to bother

Now on to Liz stuff!

I just recently had a thought. As I've said before, I believe that Liz is 100% human. This does not mean however that Liz is not important to the alien mythology. Liz is the embodiment of all of the good qualities of humanity (ie: love, compassion, and freindship that can go beyond the physical barriers of race,....). We have not yet been told why, of all places, Earth was chosen for this great conflict. There must be a VERY good reason. Pherhaps, humanity is the key to this whole thing, which would explain why Max was so drawn to Liz. Is Liz the key because she IS human? Is there something about Earth and humanity that can either save or destroy, not only our own race, but that of countless others across the galaxy? Am I making any since?

Evid~ I was looking at that picture you posted with the alien-looking thing in the shadow of Liz, and I think I know what it is. You know how sometimes when you pause a movie in midframe it shows a shadow of the frame before. I think that is the side of Liz's head that we are seeing there, not an alien. if you take another look, I think you'll see what I mean.

Doesn't it look like her cheek and her hair as she was turning to look at the other car? Anyways, I'm gonna go now. Later all!

Roswellrox

StarBox, I am an older fan too, I have five great kids! There are a few of us! Nice to "meet" you!

~Sheri

~Sheri

GraceKel: I'm glad that I am not completely crazy, but I also think some people believe that I might be HALF-CRAZY. So Grace does this mean that together we make up one complete CRAZY-PERSON.

Starstruck: I don't think the picture it self is altered in anyway, but I will ask provence over on the Cherishing M&L thread, she takes care of theddd.com and that's where I got the pic from, but she has the pics posted so quikly after each episode, that I don't see how she or anyone else would have time to alter them, I will investigate further and report back to you later.

Roswellrox:I know what your talking about, it might just be a midframe shot, but you have to admit it really looks like an Alien. My son who loves altering images, said that it looks like it's been placed within the screen shot, otherwise, digitally enhanced at the studio. We also noticed the blue ray and thought it looked like the ray from the orb. I just posted it because I saw it and I needed some confermation that I wasn't going nuts.

Oh, I forget to add that I rented "Run Lola Run" last night and it's a great movie and really makes you think of Liz and her love for Max. Anyone that rents it, take a close look at the pillow cases. The symbol is the same symbol over Liz's head on SH, when she is having the sex talk with her mom. If this is where they are headed with Liz, it looks like she will be a star character once again.

Evid

LizParkerFan: Something you said about the lack of information or action on Liz makes me also wonder about if something BIG is going on behind the scenes.

GraceKel: Yes, I definately thought Liz to be the lead character last year. Everything that happened was through her eyes. I think that the transition they attempted from Liz to Max must have been weak. If someone, a producer, had said, "Last year we saw through Liz's POV, this year we've switched to tell the story through Max's POV." I would not be struggling as much. I think that the S&B opening of Max in w/ the doctor tried to do this, but it wasn't enough. They should have kept that cut line: "There was a price to pay for knowing this, I lost the girl I loved."

OK, I have been thinking really hard about why Nasedo couldn't be revived in the pod chamber. My answer was revealed to me via the four square symbol. (I just posted all the four square signs over on Rosta's thread.) You have the 4 squares plus the cross. The cross makes each square seperated from the other. The cross gives the square individualism. The cross is the key to the podsters. Take a look at the old four square symbol and how each podster stand in relationship with each other.
The way they are standing seems like their natural balance. Pre-Tess Roswell often showed Michael-Isabel always sitting together across from Max. Tess takes her place next to Max and completes the cross. I think their positions are important! And are needed when healing. It would seem that the "cross" in the old symbol showed how each side was balanced against one another. If Liz = cross, she is the one that is hold the podsters together.

At all the "healings" Liz has been present. Even in Balanced when RiverDog told her she would have to find her own way. When the podsters heal Nasedo, they go back to their positions: Max's knee is turned to face Isabel. Isabel and Max are crossing one another. Michael and Tess take up the end positions. Michael is far enough around that he seems to be crossed by all three of the podsters. In order to heal, it seems that the four podsters need to position Tess-Max opposite Michael-Isabel.

Now, let's look at the screencap for the healing in Ask Not.

The are not in the correct position. Also look at the pods in the background. The cross that once showed how the podsters intersect one another has changed to the "new" position: The cross now defines each of them as individuals. And there is no one (Liz) in the pod chamber representing the cross. This is why the healing did not work.

I was wondering if maybe Liz has not had such a big story line because maybe Shiri was doing another project while these were shooting. Just a thought. But I do think they have something huge in store for us concerning her.

QF-It is a good POV that you made about this season maybe being in the perspective of Max. Didn't JB say something about that. But maybe if the Powers that Be read this thread they will incorporate that so we would have some clarification.

I am still wondering why Maria is taking a more important role then Liz is.

I have thought more on this humanity-is-key-therefor-Liz-as-human-is-key thing and I've come up with a few questions that seem to support my theory.

1. Why in the world(pun intended) did the aliens choose Earth?
2. Why did they make the podsters half human?
3. Why are the Skins on Earth?
4. If it is to find the podsters then why haven't they killed them already, since they now know who they are?
5. For that matter, why didn't the Skins just blow up the whole planet?
(They can't possibly be afraid of the Human's technology. Some one who can travel light years and mess around with genetics, doesn't need to worry that our technology is more advanced than theirs.)
6. If its because of the of the granolith thingy, then why not just declare war on the humans and take it forcefully instead of sneeking around, pretending to be human?

These questions leave me to believe that there is something important about humans themselves that we don't know about yet. If this is true, then Liz should be playing a VERY important part, soon.

So, do we have the start of a new idea/theory: Liz as the cross! Nemo can you come in here and comment on how Max has crucified himself (as a Christ figure) on Liz?

So see, it works both ways!

I think I'm just grasping for straws here! :D

EVID-LOL 2 peas on a pod or we make 1 crazy person--YES INDEED LOL!!!!

EVID about that RUN LOLA RUN will you please just explain how this could fit, I did notice the symbol behind Liz in SH (can you just explain it cuz I doubt I will be seeing run lola run anytime soon.)
I have been reading all the posts in regards to this and it called to my mind GOMEZ SONG
WE CAME WE CAME WE CAME AGAIN
THE SAME THE SAME THE SAME AGAIN
Things being repeated THREE times? Is there a significance????

QFANNY-interesting idea you have about the 4 square symbolism and the podsters--what I do remember about that episode is when they showed them standing there 4 sq---that Max, Isabel and Michaels shadows were all touching and TESS was not(LOL figures I would notice this right LOL!!!)

Yes I do think it is a great possibility that Liz needs to be there as the fifth for the healing(although the way things are going I wouldn't count on that-oh did I just let THAT slip out again LOL.)

HYPERKITN-I certainly HOPE your feelings are right about LIZ having something VERY BIG coming up real soon, I could use a little optimism right now, and I share your concern why is Maria getting more screentime than Liz, why is TESS getting more screentime than Liz--I cannot even fathom what TPTB are thinking really. I just can't.

RW nice ideas too I hope you are right.

ZERO--I will chant with you WHERES LIZ?

We were on page 2, so I figured it was okay to post. I guess we could edit our posts if it gets to 249 before Zero starts the new thread. Anyway, I am going to email her now.

Ooo! GraceKel! What a terrific idea! Um, I mean, not that he's dead.
And maybe he's not. Or am I in denial here?

I'm editing (it's really 11:47pm PDT) to avoid adding an additional post. Regarding (below) the "right and wrong side:" That is a recurring theme: Valenti chooses it in Destiny (or was it WR?). If Liz is still supposed to be good at making this choice, I'm thinking Nasedo and Tess are still questionable. Liz rebuked Harding in S&B, and voiced a distrust of Tess last week too. Should we be asking (shudder): Is Liz still important to the alien mythology?

I also noticed that they don't pass around the bowl of water like they did for Michael. This is what Riverdog said.

RIVER DOG: Water. Something in common with all of us. By drinking from the same bowl, we begin the connection.

So is water not common in Nasedo, and if they are not drinking out of the same bowl how are they connecting?

Another thing about the healing?

RIVER DOG: He warned me, though, there was a risk. The balance can pull you in. It's a force that can change both your body and your mind unless you "navigate it properly." Now, clear your mind...and drink from the bowl. Don't change the way you feel about your friend, and you'll come out on the "right side."

Does this mean if they didn't navigate properly (Max,Iz,Maria or Alex) that one of them could be on the wrong side?
Liz did tell Alex on Blood Brothers that there is a wrong side and a right side, I'm on the right side.

GraceKel: I will wait and post about the movie on the new thread, so we can discuss it there.

Evid

still reading - I am trying to catch up

1. Max and the podsters
2. The Skins (their enemy)
3. ???????(aliens interested in helping humans.)

I know I'm reaching waaaaay . . . out there. But here's my theory for your questions to #1,2, 5 & #6.
What if the 3rd race of aliens are guardians of the human race. Or the 3rd race of aliens aren't aliens but a more evolved human watching and guiding us to the next evolutionary level. Maybe the 3rd race is the more superior of the others, and that is why the podsters are part human, and the Skins would never declare war against us. I keep asking myslef why would an alien care to heal a human. For what purpose. Maybe the reason Max's planet sent them to Earth was more in the form of santuary and a possible alliance with the 3rd race. I keep thinking that River Dog and Grandma Claudia are of the 3rd race. Always assisting our young humans and aliens with advice, and an actual lesson to be learned kind of thing.


RiverDog


Okay, sorry I'll stop now before someone puts me in a straight jacket. Just an idea. Oh, one more thing I think Liz is also of the 3rd race. She seems to have certain abilities none of her human friends have. But for now though I think she is being observed as to how she will handle herself with the situation with Max and the Skins, with a little help from Grandma Claudia and River Dog.

GC had learned to love Nacedo, knowing there was no furture with her beloved Max. (He was cooking in the pod) She then convinced Nacedo to take her "essence" (a part of her) and inject it into a baby for Nancy and Jeff who were have problems conceiving. Therefore, Nacedo killed Sheila Hubble for her child and injected GC's "essence". Now, I don't think GC was aware that he had to kill someone, I'm assuming that he didn't tell her that it came to that. Maybe, Nacedo even tried to heal Sheila, but was interrupted by Mr. Hubble. Not sure there!!!

With GC's death, Nacedo began a plan. He may or may not have wanted Max & Liz to find each other - for jealousy reasons or maybe he didn't want history to repeat itself. Maybe he felt "love" got in the way the first time - both Max's & Isabel's, and therefore, planted Tess into the picture. Tess could have been the other surviving alien or maybe an "essence" that Nacedo took with the other three.
*****
I hope you could follow this. To me, this theory answered a few questions/clues in my mind.
- Max & Liz recognized each other at the early age of 9 (Grade 3) - drawn to each other
- Liz's cells were different from Max's (Liz being human)
- Max's need to heal Liz - "it was you"
- Isabel's jealousy of Liz - she didn't want Max to be around Liz at the beginning (she was wanting the kind of love they have too)
- I thought Nancy felt uncomfortable around Liz & GC-she didn't want to intrude when GC came to visit(she knows their special connection)
- GC wrote a book about Navaho (sp??) Indians -didn't Nacedo live among them??
- Liz was quoted "she is the basis of my existence" referring to GC in Leaving Normal
- Liz's parents were star gazing "venus in the morning sky" - they may have known that Nacedo helped them conceive their child
- GC was quoted "when I see you so full of life, I see myself - a gift I will always treasure" (not sure of the exact wording on that one)
- Liz was the one who got the visions of the orb - "it was as if she was in the ship looking out" (Grandma Claudia was saved by Nacedo)
- Nacedo looked proud when he told M/L to go home - right after they found the orb (His love for GC)
- why would Nacedo take Liz with him to "trap" Pierce to kill him. I know he said "you're my hostage, my collateral", but why so eager to kiss Liz?? Remember when he told Liz (before he pulled over and kissed each other passionately) he said "just wanted to tell you that no one will ever come between us - NO ONE". Not even Max?????
- He saved Liz from the House of Mirrors - why????? Was it because he loved her, or was it because he knew it would destroy Max if she were caught too???
- Remember Max/nacedo's smirk when Liz said "he changed me, we looked into each other's souls"? It was as if he couldn't believe that their love is still so strong (yes I'm a Dreamer) or maybe he was thinking "how could she know. . .. be so on target"

With the idea of Tess being planted by Nacedo -- bewilders me, though.
Max remembers the first night very clearly - totally different from what Tess is projecting. Is she an innocent - unknowing pawn? Or does she know of Nacedo's plan and is trying to convince the 3-pod squad that she fits in? Why have her included - Nacedo wanting Liz to himself somehow? Nacedo not wanting "love" to confuse Max again? Does the granithyth (whatever it is) need 4 podsters to run the thing?

All I know is that since Tess has been in the picture ---M/M/I are not getting along!! They are all keeping secrets from each other and lying to each other. They have to get rid of her!!!!!!!!!! (Dreamgirl seeping out again - sorry)

This was a bit long - sorry. But I hope we viewers get some answers soon - I'm going out of my mind!!!!

TP---I am so glad you saw this the way I saw this how MACEDOor EVILMAX as he has been called said "I just want you to know Liz that NOTHING WILL EVER COME BETWEEN US" I thought MY GOD he is saying between HIM AND HER---not even MAX---that is the way I took it too!!!! Which explains why he loved her company so much and kissing her. Which could mean he had ulterior motives for planting a substitute podster so I also entertained this possibility but nobody else seemed to agree! And when she said "you don't know what Max and I have, we saw into each others souls, he changed me" I thought he sort of chuckled like "NO I KNOW MORE THAN YOU DO WHAT YOU TWO HAVE HA!HA!

GraceKel: This question about PSAT reminded me of Run Lola Run. Lola needs to keep reliving this one event over and over and over again ( yes 3 times) until she get's it right, until she Aces the test. So each time seems like a rehearsel. The PSAT is just a rehearsel test for the SAT. I pulled this off a site.

PSAT (Preliminary Scholastic Aptitude Test)
If you are a person who tends to panic on a test, the PSAT is a good place to practice, since you know that the scores will not count. There are coaching classes available for the PSAT, but I do not recommend taking them. You get a much more valid sense of strengths and weaknesses going into the tests on your own,(does this sentence remind you of what Riverdog told Liz about finding your own path) then, when you get your scores back six weeks later, you will know just what areas you need to work on.

Lola had to learn from each mistake she made before, and each time she was about to do it again she remembered and didn't repeat it. Could this be the reason Liz did not want to help Michael, she had made that mistake before? So waht do you think? Was the first season just a dress rehearsel?

Evid

tp... those are interesting points.

hmm...

Hey Zero! We need a new thread! Please!

the_max: I wouldn't worrie about it. I guess they could have been less of a copy cat. But what is so funny, is that's what we think Tess is, Nasedo's copy cat of Liz.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Zero
"Where's Liz?"