The following is a summary of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the original threads. Our basic thesis is that Liz is an important and essential element to the alien mythology. Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. Following is a summary of what we have discussed.

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From the first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten, Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was you!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is – maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet (is she the true Vilandra, and Max her one great love?), or a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth, or was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early and was humanized by her human parents, or was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow was separated from the group, or could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers. Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents, does she have a connection to the Indians or an alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble – and how this plays into the connection with Max? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her?

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess (aka hamster or gerbil – you pick) , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the human race and the podsters’ people. Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … (none of us are too fond or trusting of Tess). Are those visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny.

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart, then again Liz followed her heart a believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene, and now Maria tells Max to follow his heart, like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another?

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young bride has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? Though many seem to accept that it probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences?), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters??

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, etc.). She is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out in Destiny is the former leader of his people. Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many have expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz is capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. Will she be the one able to SEE the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do).

Each of Liz’s visions has been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize all the thoughts here. Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen a (the?) trip through a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source internal to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was it intentional?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect)?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library) and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence – we think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful!

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! hummmm!

Liz’s ability to “see” into Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole, the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). Could it be that the four squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? The numbers 14 and 104 seem to pop up often – why? Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the podsquad? Or are they just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? :facespin: We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. Any connection?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dot" in the series of boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Many have wondered if the "evil" aliens – Skins - might also be from the podsquad's planet, just part of a civil war - therefore, having similar characteristics and powers to Harding's type of alien. The Skins seem to have similar powers – but no shapeshifting has been seen, yet, by them. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could the pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash, maybe later on? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? Could other pods have been planted at other times? Could there be more than one set of podsters that will show up later? Clones? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him – why? And are they another race of aliens, or one of the two “know” aliens? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human.

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the podsquad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise!

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding has done nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he is a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the podsquad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could answer for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands.

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across:
1911 - James Atherton born in TN
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disk-like objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everett Hubble born
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
10/25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
9/17/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
10/25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything, but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theorie justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! :liz: I'm trying to sum up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max :max: in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX :liz: / :max: CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, and that together Max and Liz make a incredible force to reckon with!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO Spoilers, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired.

Zero
“Where’s Liz?”

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

bump bump bump

Is everybody ready for tonight?

I'm kinda curious about this eppy. Maybe we'll get some more clues! YAY!

Roswellrox

A lot of lurkers just love this thread.

Take Care, DeeDee

Hi everyone! I'm a little new to this thread, but I have a (very long) question about the above passage:

I've seen all of the speculation that Liz could have been the 4th podster. And theories include her as Max's bride, the second in command or the true Valandra. But has anyone thought that perhaps Liz possesses the essence of "the king"?

We seem so willing to accept that Max is the re-created king, although we are quick to question the roles of the other podsters. It's easy to be swayed by gender bias, but I still think it's possible that "the king's" essence could have been placed into one of the female hybrids (therefore making Max either the king's wife, or possibly the second in command).

Hypothetically of course, if Liz (or the whoever the real 4th podster is...I cannot believe it is Tess!) did have the king's essence, that would certainly be a reason to separate her from the others and "disguise" her...perhaps for her own protection until the time was right for her to be revealed.

Could this be why Harding chose to save Liz and not Max in the mirror room? Could this be why Max is so reluctant to be leader? And could this be the purpose of re-creating the "king's bride" as Max (to save Liz, aka the king, from the gunshot wound at the Crashdown)?

Sorry for the long thought, but my point is this: Max may NOT be the king. And while that doesn't take away Liz's importance, it definitely could change it...

Roswellrox

Now, where were we?
Oooh, yeaaa, huggybehr:
quote:I am so impressed that you guys manage to come up with any theories which link Liz to the alien mythology. Having just watched S&B AN and S, I can find nothing of relevance in there. I will continue to lurk until TPTB give me something I can get my teeth into.
Ahem! Forgetting about Liz's importance to the overall plot and concentrating on her importance to just the mythology for a moment:
Think of the Valandra story. Now think of the Run Lola Run Plot that we have been served up as a big clue by the late Skin, Vanessa Whittaker. Now think of Max and Liz as the players in the current version of this Romeo and Juliet. You might even want to recall some theories from last Season posters about whether or not Max and Isabel have the same genders in their earthly bodies that they did on Planet Twilo. (Hmmmm...Note to self, Qfanny and Maxcedo, we should add that to the Theory Archive { http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell }.) If Max's people (the shapeshifters????) wanted to really confuse the Skins about the true identity of Valandra, it would be a good idea to switch genders.

But then I'm not sure that Vanessa wasn't really Valandra who had 'sold her soul to the Devil' so to speak (Devi=Skins) and was trying to buy it back with a podster. Okay, I could go on, but I've got to get some work done.

Actually roswellrox, I am more inclined to believe that Liz is 100% human...although, I still find myself trying to come up with ways to make her alien!

But if she IS human, I agree that Liz is definitely not just any human. Either she is one of the "chosen ones" (like Brody) that are advanced enough to unify with the aliens during the conflict. Or, like you said, she is to lead the humans in an alliance with Max's people.

Whatever she is, I just hope and pray TPTB don't chalk up her importance to Max (and the others) as just a typical teenage Romeo/Juliet type thing. That would be a copout.

RajiQ

BTW, I should probably say that, as much as I enjoy thinking about complicated things like this, I really think Max is the true leader of the group. But I think he, and the rest of the Pod Squad, have underestimated Liz's importance to their survival and destiny.

Roswellrox

Tigger - interesting idea! I tend to think that Max does have the essence of the king, but - to expand a bit on your thoughts - could an "essence" be split between two beings, thus, preserving it? I know that sounds strange, but ... Again this brings us back to what an "essence" of a being is, and how it would be transmitted to another being. If an essence includes traits and characteristic, than Liz has some of those Leadership (Royal) characteristics. Just a thought.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

But, it is just a theory...lending perhaps a slightly different slant on the Liz being an alien theories. And while they are fun to create, I tend to think that Liz would be of greater value to the storyline if she were NOT alien, but rather a human with a special purpose.

I believe those who have posted that the podsters are too quick to dismiss Liz as an outsider are totally right. The podsters are so wrapped up in their origin and the events surrounding their being placed on earth that they are failing to realize that others around them (Liz and the other humans) probably have a great significance in their overall destiny even though those humans weren't mentioned in the Mom-o-gram.

I believe that when Max saw Liz, he recognised her as his soulmate immediately, but not on a conscious level. Perhaps because of his alien essence he has some kind of 'sense memory' (I think JB used that term in an interview) that was triggered when he saw her. If Tess is telling the truth about the memory retrieval techniques, this could well be the way in which Liz's importance to the alien mythology is revealed.

Any thoughts?

I sometimes wonder if Michael were meant for Liz, and Max with Maria. Liz sometimes seems to understand Michael more than Maria does, and vice versa with Maria.Oh well..that may sound crazy.

Do you think that Liz is half skin/alien and fell in love with alien Max, and that my be the reason for the whole war? Okay that's one is kind of far fetched.

It is just me or does TicTac really get around with his shapeshifting self. And what was up with that glance that he gave Max/Liz in Sexual Healing?

-----------------
Dreamgirl, Applesaucer,
R.B.I.

Last night I had a dream that I was Liz and Liz was T and Max was in love with me until T came into the picture and although it sounds VERY bizarre for a 26 year old female to be having dreams about TV characters.. I firmly believe it was my subconscience telling me about how important Liz really is. I mean, if *I* was Liz in the dream - she HAS to be important, right!?

I think maybe I need to get out more!

Hi, i'm delurking from this thread for good. I just have to post.

That's the theory about reincarnation. That we all live different lives trying to right our mistakes. And until we have righted those wrongs, we don't move on. It's all metaphysics.

quote:I believe that when Max saw Liz, he recognised her as his soulmate immediately, but not on a conscious level. Perhaps because of his alien essence he has some kind of 'sense memory' (I think JB used that term in an interview) that was triggered when he saw her. If Tess is telling the truth about the memory retrieval techniques, this could well be the way in which Liz's importance to the alien mythology is revealed.

Any thoughts?

The first time Max saw her something clicked in him. He, i'm sure, was not aware of it. If you think about it, he has seen hundreds of girls throughout his life and only ONE ever made an impact on him. Like the connection he felt toward Tess , this could be the same connection (but MUCH MUCH stronger) he feels towards Liz...

~NicoleD~

Zero

I've also considered the idea of perhaps Max's "king essence" being split somehow, between himself and Liz. But then I thought, "Well, if Liz has part of 'king essence' in her, then why doesn't she basically feel the same way about Tess as Max did/does? [strange attraction he described in TLV]" ...Then I thought -going along with this theory- well maybe Liz DOES sense something about Tess (she's obviously still very reluctant to trust her "Surprise", despite all the podsters seeming to fold). There are theories circling amongst everyone here concerning Tess possibly being the one who betrayed the podsters in the past life... what if it's only Liz who has these negative (subconscious) memories of Tess? As well as the other memories of travelling to Earth, etc? Due to the split essence, Max doesn't have these memories ? The only way they can tap into each others' particular memories is thru "connecting"? ...LOTS of connecting.

Or perhaps both M/L could have the same memories, but maybe because Liz is a (heterosexual) female, Liz centers around only *particular* memories and Max a (heterosexual) male focuses on others? Yet BOTH show similar traits between each other (both have qualities of leaders, both are intelligent [on the honor roll in school], both are generally softspoken until pushed, amongst several others).

This might also go along with the theories about Max/Michael getting along better when Liz is in the picture. Since Max/Liz -only when they're together- are the "beloved leader", Michael somehow respects Max more when he's with Liz as opposed to when they're apart. Because Mike somehow recognizes Max/Liz as the "leader", not just one of the two?

However, Max, because of his special physiology (more capable of extrasensory abilities than Liz?), *recognized* something very familiar in Liz stepping off the bus in Kindergarten when Liz didn't? Or Liz, perhaps had a slight recognition (hence smiling back at young Max) but nothing out of the ordinary because she's completely human? It's only after *connecting* with him, this need to be *together* became overwhelming for her (besides her love for him)? Max literally recognized "his other half"? Although this is all a bit narcissistic, isn't it? Redefines the term "self-love".

The thing is, if Liz DOES have part of the king/Max's essence in her... how / why? Could it have been purposefully put in her or accidental? If the essence was split, if either of them dies, could the essence seek out it's other half involuntarily? Hence the essence becoming whole again in one body? Or if one of the essence carriers die, would they both die? Now isn't that romantic!? If Liz dies, Max *literally* wouldn't be able to live w/out her, he'd die right along with her! Interesting thought though, perhaps Max saved Liz not only because he was saving the girl he's in love with but also he was (inadvertantly) saving himself? hmm?

Great thoughts Tigger & Zero!!

Melodious

tigger2: I have also thought that Liz was a leader and Max was more of a follower.

Ask Not (Max talking to Maria)
MAX: I'm supposed to be this great leader, but I don't know how to make these kinds of decisions. I don't have that kind of insight. How am I supposed to know what's the right course of action?

Balance
LIZ'S VOICEOVER: I've always been the one who comes through in the time of crisis. I do what's necessary, and I don't panic.

********************************************

Pilot (Lead to the dicovery of the key and saved Max)
LIZ: Um Max, Valenti showed me this photo of a corpse. A murder victim. It had the same silver handprint on it's chest.
MAX: That can't be.
LIZ: The photo was marked 1959.
LIZ: Look, I think I have an idea here. If we can just all work together here maybe we can throw Valenti off.

Mourning After (talking to Max about Topolsky)
LIZ: Look, I am just saying that if there is a spy among us, don’t you think it behooves us to do something about it?

Monster (coaching Maria)
LIZ: Okay, you got tapped by the car and you blacked out. And you just, you don't remember a thing that happened after that. Okay? Now, let's pretend that I'm Valenti. What did you see in the parking lot that night?

Missing (Wins Michael's trust)
MICHAEL: Thank you for giving me one more reason to envy Max Evans.
MICHAEL: I never meant for things to get out of control...it's nice to know we have at least one friend in this town.

285 South (talking to Max and the squad)
LIZ: No! No more secrets from us! Maria and I, we are a part of this now. If we don't know everything, how are we supposed to protect ourselves? And how are we supposed to help you?
LIZ: So you guys think that this key is gonna unlock the dome and then...and then you guys are gonna find something there...something that's gonna help you guys figure out where you actually come from?
MAX: Yes.
LIZ: Then what are we waiting for?

Riverdog
LIZ: Um...I really didn't wanna say this before because I didn't want anybody else to get involved, but...I'm going to the reservation.
LIZ: It's what started all of this. People suspecting you. If anything happened to you...or Michael or Isabel, I just...I couldn't live with that. Let me do this one thing.
MAX: Liz, I already told you no.
LIZ: Max, I didn't come here for permission. I came here for the pendant. If you don't give it to me, I'll just draw it. I'm going.!

WOW, I got started and couldn't stop and I just posted the first 7 episodes. I think we can all agree that Liz has proven herself as a leader time and time again. But just because Max has not doesn't mean that Max is not a leader, he just doesn't know how to lead as a humen, with his heart. Liz on the other hand is humen, she always leads with her heart. Each time, her reasons for her actions were to keep everyone safe. Max may only know how to lead as an Alien on his planet, without feelings and emotions. Liz is the reason he is now beginning to lead with his heart.

Destiny
LIZ: Max, the day that you saved my life, your life just ended.

MAX: No, that was the day my life began. Liz, when I was in that room, and they did what they did to me. You're what kept me alive. The thought of you. The way your eyes look into mine. Your smile. The touch of your skin. Your lips. Knowing you has made me human. Whether I die tomorrow or fifty years from now, my destiny is the same: it's you. I want to be with you, Liz. I love you.

LIZ: I love you. (They kiss.)

Hey, I'm a Dreamer at heart, I had to put in my favorite scene.

Evid

to whoever it was that meantioned on the last thread about the 3rd race being guardians of the human race (LaSalle? I think, sorry I'm still trying to remember everybody!)
I think that's a really interesting idea. Especially when you mentioned that they might be advanced humans. I don't usually go for time travel, but what if the 3rd race are humans from the distant future, here to make sure that some really signifacant event to humanities futur occurs. That would explain why they would be so interested in doing things like saving Brody, just making sure all the signifacant players are in the right place at the right time.

Well, anyway, I won't be back tell this weekend, because I have to tape the eps at home and see them when I go home on the weekends. I don't want to see any more spoilers than I already have!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Zero - great theory! I would love to see something like this.

Zero: I have a very strong feeling there is something in the destiny book that when decoded will refer a "chosen one" of some sort.

LizParkerfan: I definitely think that if Liz IS that she was separated from the rest of the group for her protection and replaced by a decoy (Tess), which means Liz carries a greater purpose than say Michael or Isabel.

To everyone else for their wonderful insights, there are so many directions (reincarnation, time travel, etc.) that could be taken with the so-called "destiny" of the podsters and it's relevance to their human counterparts.

There are definitely plausible ways to make Liz alien, just as there are ways to keep her human and have her still be Max's soulmate. I think many hold on to the idea that Max (in ANY form, past or present) would never marry someone who wasn't his true love. Thus all of the scrambling to somehow make Liz be Max's "bride."

But the simplest of explanations could be that Max married (either by duty or force) the wrong woman...

As for the conflict that destroyed Max's kingdom and led the aliens to their current situation, there are upcoming spoilers that might shed some light on that...and I can't wait to get everyone's opinions once those episodes have run.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Zero, If Liz and Max share elements of the same essence, it would have been planned as such. In that case, why send Tess, when the potential conflict might actually prevent the 'shared' essence from combining?

WR

I will be interested in finding out more on the Granilith...the skins must want it pretty bad, they haven't killed the royal four yet. So, it must be extremely important.

I agree with all of you that Liz has been the leader so far, and I feel that she will have her part in all this...it just takes time for everything to unravel....Drat! Patience is NOT my strong point! But since I don't have a choice, I ma glad we can all come here to speculate.

Only 3 1/2 hrs till the best hour of TV is on!!

~Sheri

I’m not convinced about the theory that connects Liz as Vilandra, UNLESS Liz/Vilandra’s Great Love was NOT Max.

In Surprise, Whitaker says “You belong with us, our race.” And then “You had a great love, and for him, for us, you betrayed your brother, your race.

Now that would mean that the Great Love was/is a Skin. Evidence suggests (at least, to me) that Max is not a Skin. So I ‘believe’ that Vilandra must be either Isabel or Tess after all.

WR

Zero, If Liz and Max share elements of the same essence, it would have been planned as such. In that case, why send Tess, when the potential conflict might actually prevent the 'shared' essence from combining?

WR

WR - I'm not saying I believe this, it is just an expansion on a theory that I think is interesting, BUT since you raise the question ... If the podsters' people want to assure the survival of the king's essence, they would establish safeguards to prevent the knowledge that it was established in two beings from being known. They may not have anticipated that the two beings containing the essence would discover each other and connect like Max and Liz have. Why send Tess? Well that is a GOOD Question regardless?? I have often - along with others - wondered why they sent Tess given the risks involved, etc. Procreation alone does NOT settle well with me.

BTW - Never worry about playing devil's advocate - I've been known to do that, and some of the best thoughts come out of that type of process! We are often pushing the envelope on this thread!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

I’m not convinced about the theory that connects Liz as Vilandra, UNLESS Liz/Vilandra’s Great Love was NOT Max.

In Surprise, Whitaker says “You belong with us, our race.” And then “You had a great love, and for him, for us, you betrayed your brother, your race.

Now that would mean that the Great Love was/is a Skin. Evidence suggests (at least, to me) that Max is not a Skin. So I ‘believe’ that Vilandra must be either Isabel or Tess after all.

WR

WR - I agree with you on this one! Though some do speculate otherwise, I think the dialoge suggests that it had to be either the sister (Iz/Tess?). BUT if Iz did betray Max, that means she betrayed her betrothed Micheal even more. Which leads to the interest in how their society operated and were arranged marriages common or part of the structure. Of course, this leads back to Max and Tess being part of an arranged marriage!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

shapeshifter-- I am not familiar with then gender switching theory, but it looks really good. I have said on prior threads that I think Liz to be the leader of the group. She's the one that gets the job done after all.

Ok, back to my idea that Nasedo could not be healed in the beginning of Ask Not. I stated that at the end of 4 Squares the podsters stand an in specific arrangement, and it looks and feels like their natural balance. Max stands looking a Isabel. Tess is next , Tess stands looking at Michael, Isabel is on Michael's left. They repeat these same positions (barely) in the Nasedo healing of Destiny. Max's knew is to turned to face Isabel. Michael is on Isabel's left side. Tess is next to Max. Tess-Max-Isabel-Michael, etc: Now, Liz is missing in the healing of Ask Not. So Liz=Cross of the four square symbol. She is not present, so there is not enough energy to heal Nasedo. Looky what I found from the Balance:

Clip courtsey of Crashdown:
quote:
RIVER DOG: Healing requires energy. The more we have, the faster we heal. Now everyone take your place in the circle. There's a line for each of you leading to the center.

(There is a large circle drawn on the ground with 5 lines leading from the edge of the circle to the middle. Michael is lying in the middle with webbing covering him from head to feet. Max, Maria, Alex, Isabel, and Liz all walk towards a line)

RIVER DOG: Nasedo gave me these stones. They're from his place. And they carry an energy inside them.

MAX: You mean, these are from...

RIVER DOG: Wherever you are from. He said that his body carried the same energy that's in these stones. He called it the balance. He said that the heat from the sweat disrupted it in some way.

MAX: How?

RIVER DOG: He told me to hold the stones until my energy activated them. And the balance would be restored.

So even in Balance the presense of five people were needed to do a healing with the stones.

I wonder if how River Dog was able to heal Nasedo the first time, without the other's there??? Maybe healings get harding everytime you do them?

Back to reading the rest of the thread. Thank you Zero for starting the new thread. It was hard not to go in and post on the old one (#11).

Reggie: You may laugh, but I have learned when it comes to Roswell, one copy is not enough!!! I set all my VCRS to tape. Thanks for the heads up! It sounds like you really enjoyed it!

Even the theme song of Roswell fits with it.

"Until your resting here with me."

Neither would feel complete until they were one.

Very romantic. Even more so than reincarnated lovers.

My hubby went on a hunting trip this weekend so the TV was MINE, and guess what I did... Roswell marathon!! My head is litterly swimming from all the ideas running through my mind. I did notice something that I don't think has been mentioned before. In WR Pierce tells Max that an Agent Daniel Summers was killed May 2 1999. I noticed the teacher who gives them the biography assignment (and he consults with Topolsky about this) is named Mr Summers. I wonder if they were one in the same. Someone was getting pictures of these kids in the school, could have been him.

About the three different races theory (which by the way sounds good to me), it makes me think of the painying on the wall of the Crashdown of THREE spaceships, one blue, one yellow, and one red. This also ties in to the color connections.

About Liz and Max possibly having a split essence. Marriage vows often say when 2 become 1. If they were eventually to marry (I mean when they eventually marry - sorry, having a dreamer moment!!) would it then complete them. They would gain the knowledge from the missing essence, and as Zero says Liz and Max would then be a force to be reckoned with! This would also make them really true soul mates.

While doing my marathon this weekend I started keeping track of how often Isabel wears red, its an enormous amount of the time!! Does she just look good in this color or is this a CLUE?

Starstruck

Hey WB, if you're reading this BRING BACK LIZ, she is after all the true Queen!!!

I have also been reading all your posts the only thing I am questioning here is we know so little about the skins yet and like NEMO said about the RAGE ROOM and MOMMOGRAM said you will know them by the EVIL WITHIN--so who is to say who is evil here, maybe there are good and bad skins, maybe there are good and bad on every side---I don't think we can assume anything yet. I think that is what ASK NOT was trying to show us that they were quick to identify an enemy and to kill him but maybe he is not their enemy at all, things are more complicated than that.

Sound familiar? Let's hope our Liz soesn't meet the same fate.

Maybe it was Liz's grandmother. OK, maybe it's just way too late at night, and I'm rambling. What do you all think? It seems like the writers left themselves some leeway.

They would have never put that in there unless there was a very good reason.

No Grandma Claudia, but we saw Great Grandpa Pete Parker running the bar that later becomes the Crashdown.

*Hal's squadron number:509 5+0+9=14!

*Two aliens behind the screen. Nasedo and... ???. Can we assume they both escaped, each with one set of pods?

*The bar thing (Parker's) was very cute!

*I think it's time to have another talk w/ Jim Valenti Sr.

*Geez, the "I Know an Alien Club" really is burgeoning. Welcome, Hal!

OK...I'll be more insightful after another viewing.

So now we have 8 aliens! Major revelation there. There is hope for us Liz Mythologists yet. I do not think that Maria and Alex are aliens though.

So, I think most people are assuming that Nasedo took 4 pods and Tic-Tac took the other 4. But if Tic-Tac was supposed to be watching the other 4, then why was he around our pod squad so much? Could it be that Liz was part of his Pod Squad, just seperated from them? That thought brings me back to that leeky pod. Was she taken away for some reason? So many new theories to ponder. This changes everything.

~Christina

I have only watched Summer of '47 once, but here are some random thoughts.

2 sacs x 4 fetuses = 8 podsters
So we know about four of them already, but where are the other four (and is it too late to audition? I want in on the action! ). We saw two glowy aliens. I am assuming that one of them was Nasedo, but was the other one the one that was captured? and by the way how do we know that one of the aliens didn't escape? Sorry, but I couldn't remember. Could the other glowy alien be Tic-tac? huh...

Oh, and I'm assuming that discussion of the promo for next week is okay now. I guess we know what the Granolith is for. Kudos to those of you who thought it was a time travel device! But who was the girl that was with him when he beamed in? I tried to GraceKel it, but I couldn't see clearly who she was! GRRR!!! Anywayz, I'm about to watch again, so more later!

Roswellrox

Finally - I can already tell from the preview that next week is going to be a tear-jerker!! Get those hankies ready - I don't know if I'll be able to handle it - the tears may ruin my computer!!

More after I get a chance to rewatch the Summer of '47!!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

So now we have 8 aliens! Major revelation there. There is hope for us Liz Mythologists yet. I do not think that Maria and Alex are aliens though.

So, I think most people are assuming that Nasedo took 4 pods and Tic-Tac took the other 4. But if Tic-Tac was supposed to be watching the other 4, then why was he around our pod squad so much? Could it be that Liz was part of his Pod Squad, just seperated from them? That thought brings me back to that leeky pod. Was she taken away for some reason? So many new theories to ponder. This changes everything.

~Christina

Really like this idea about Tic Tac being around "watching" over Liz - possibly a podster that had to be save due to a damaged pod! I'm going to have to ponder this one since it fits with some of my thoughts about someone watching over Liz! Hummmmmmm!! WHere is Grandma Claudia when we need her!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

*Geez, the "I Know an Alien Club" really is burgeoning. Welcome, Hal!

OK...I'll be more insightful after another viewing.

My thoughts too. G'night all.

this is rather interesting. someone had mentioned that liz took charge in almost any decision making last season. and now we find out that there were 8 podsters. so if nacedo took 4 and then tic tak took the other four. so, 2 sets of the royal four? maybe one is the decoy and the other were the real ones.

max could be the leader of the 4 and maybe liz is the one in charge of the other 4. maybe max and liz were the ones that were meant to be and to ensure the success of their battle there were 2 sets so that just in case one failed the other would carry on the quest, thus, the king's bride lead the 2nd troop.

maybe the one that was leaking, maybe that was liz and she hatched out sooner than the others of pod group 2. maybe she hatched out sooner and being an infant, could have been given to the parkers to raise. that could explain as to why max and liz looked at each other, when max got off the bus.

my rambling thoughts.

So.. Liz can't be the LEADER because then what better than Max and Liz together - two leaders? Nothing. However, Future-Max stresses that they CAN'T be together.. why not? My DreamGirl heart probably won't be able to take next weeks eppy.. *sigh* It better just be a "lull" in the relationship, not an ending!

Also - about the "mixed gender" thing - I had played with this idea a bit - just because Isabel as Vilandra doesnt work for me. But - I really do think that M/I/M are who they think they are.

Liz as Vilandra - I am not so sure about that one now that I re-read the transcript of "Suprise".
BUT - I still have some huge issues with the whole Vilandra thing. It just doesnt seem to make sense at all. I think the only conclusion is that CW was either 1) not being truthful or 2) did not have the whole story
Because two things make NO sense.
First - WHY would the aliens send the betrayer back to earth?
Second - WHY was CW very clearly looking for the person who was romantically attached to Max in her former "life" and not his sister.

Now - onto "Summer of 47" - I have to say "WHERES LIZ????"
I thought it was interesting that Tess played someone who as in on the conspiricy. Both Liz and Maria were "Good Humans" - but Tess was not. I also thought that maybe the character Max played was a skin - he seemed a little like he was "body snatched" and did anyone else notice that he kept scratching behind his ear (something Courtney does before she "sheds"- and I think CW did it too). I also thought this episode perfectly set up the "humanity as a key to the aliens survival" theory AND it works really welll with both of our "Tess is not the fourth podster" theories. Because one of the pods ws leaking - it seems that that fetus either died or hatched early.

Now - on to the promo for next season.
Since the granolith is a time travel chamber - WHY didnt the aliens just construct the pod chamber that way??? I mean - it seems a little complicated that those glowy aliens packed up the pods and snuck them out of the
military base, up the mountain and built a pod chamber. Although - I guess this works with the "visions" of the crash that Liz has seen. The glowy aliens could have shape-shifted into soldiers and got the pods out that way.

I almost wet my pants when I found out that the guy running the bar is Peter Parker!!! For anyone not in the know, that is spiderman's name in the comic book. Spiderman is also Brendan's monicker online

Did anyone notice that the building that housed the morgue was 7354? Funny how those particular numbers seem to be popping up!!

Also, I found it very interesting that Hal and Pete Parker seemed to be friends. And that Hal lives in FLORIDA which is where Liz was visiting all summer. Could there be a connection between Hal, the leaking pod's contents and the Parkers that hasn't been revealed yet? We do know that Riverdog's Nacedo was willing to make friends with the humans. Could he have gotten in touch with Hal after the baby was born and the two of them "hatched" a plot to hide the hybrid in plain sight with the Parkers? I'm only speculating that because Hal was the one who gave them the opportunity to rescue the pods. Maybe it was this action on Nacedo's part that caused a rift between him and Harding.

Anyway, enough speculating for now. As to the promo, can't wait for next week!! After looking at the promo a number of times I think that the woman in the chamber with future Max is future Liz--same haircolor and build.

Did anybody catch the phone numbers that Hal called? Could they be significant?

I didn't even notice that! Not that Brendan/Spiderman thing, but the Peter Parker/Liz Parker thing - hmm...

quote:
Also, I found it very interesting that Hal and Pete Parker seemed to be friends. And that Hal lives in FLORIDA which is where Liz was visiting all summer. Could there be a connection between Hal, the leaking pod's contents and the Parkers that hasn't been revealed yet? We do know that Riverdog's Nacedo was willing to make friends with the humans. Could he have gotten in touch with Hal after the baby was born and the two of them "hatched" a plot to hide the hybrid in plain sight with the Parkers? I'm only speculating that because Hal was the one who gave them the opportunity to rescue the pods. Maybe it was this action on Nacedo's part that caused a rift between him and Harding.

You're right! She was in Florida. And how did Brendan get in touch with Hal? I mean, we just sort of saw him in the hotel room with him - did I miss the "connection"?

And.. where is Max's character these days? If he is a Skin (as someone up there mentioned ) .. where is he?

Gawd, I love Tuesday's!!

I agree. When I saw next week's promo I though "Oh no, another episode NOT set in today". I liked Sof47, but I it didn't give me enough of the relations that I love - M/L, M/M, A/I, etc. It didn't give me anything really in "real time" until about the last 5 minutes.

Let's hope that next week's eppy does a little more to answer some of these thoughts we're all having. Especially the "WHY CAN'T LIZ LOVE MAX" question that has been looming in my mind since last night!

I too think that the story is moving really fast, but I loved yesterday's ep. I think next week will be heartbreaking, but I really think that they are putting so much stuff into these eppies to assure good ratings and a stay of execution (so to speak).

One inconsistency that I found was in the beginning when Michael's history teacher confronted him. The teacher said,"We're not even a month into the semestdr, and you're already flunking my class." Wasn't it Oct 25th last Monday? Now I don't know how things work in Rowell-land, but in the real world school starts in the beginning of September. that would put them two months into the semester... do the writers read eachother's eppies? Sheesh!

Roswellrox

*******************

That was me - and I want to clarify that I do NOT think that Max is a skin - BUT - I thought the military guy Max PLAYED in this episode may have been a skin. I just didnt remember that character's name. This would work with a kind of big conspiricy-type scheme. The skins could have initially found the pods (or could have caused the crash). Hal could have THOUGHT he was saving the pods from the military - when really it was the skins who had already infiltrated the military. Remember how the truck full of soldiers that Hal came across after he heard the Liz-character scream looked wierd? They looked "body snatched" as well. And at the very beginning Hal said the aliens had "black, empty eyes".

This would also explain why CW was shredding Pierce's files. Maybe it all somehow implicates the EA.

Could 4 of them have been human? Can only aliens hatch from the pods or can human "essence" be duplicated as well?

In the Mom-o-gram, Mom said the podsters were the remains of something that had already happened on their planet. BUT, that doesn't mean that it happened in the *past*. (Think of it in a Terminator perspective... people being sent back to the past to correct something that has already happened in the future.)

So, if the pods were sent from the future, what if humans were the greatest ally of Max's people? What if it were necessary to re-create some of the human leaders as well as the Royals?

Since the human foursome mirrors the traits of the alien foursome, perhaps it's some sort of yen/yang (sp?) balance that requires a human circle and an alien circle.

So why not just send the humans as humans and the aliens as 100% aliens? Well, perhaps alien bodies were too fragile to sustain the time travel, perhaps it was necessary to disguise the aliens for added protection. Who knows...it's just a theory.

But, what if there was more human involvement in the creation of the pods and their occupants?

And BTW, as for the promo, I have to admit that I am semi-spoiled about this episode (although I don't know the whole premise...but know a little more than what was revealed in the promo). And without giving anything away, I think Future Max has a really good reason for what he says to Liz.

Here is my thinking about how the pods got put into the pod chambers. Again, I go back to the belief that the aliens have been visit - and living among humans - for years. They must likely prepared the pod chambers, along with the Granolith, prior to the crash, and the ship that crashed was nothing more than a transport ship for the pods. The goal was simply to place the prepared pods in the pod chambers for incubation. How it crashed is interesting to speculate about. At least we know that they probably crashed on approach, not take-off - unless, the pods were being moved to another location. Now, if the other pods were moved, they had to have been moved to a location not far from the known pod chamber - unless, help came to move them further. Maybe this is where the Indians came to assist?

I have to rewatch the leaking scene again to decide what I think about the broken pod - but human assistance sure makes sense here in incubation and hatching of that pod. We have to assume that other humans "helped" other than Hal and River Dog (Grandma Claudia? Peter Parker?). Did you notice the 8 childsize coffins??

I'm slightly spoiled about next weeks episode, so will refrain from commenting too much - but I don't think the person with Future Max is Future Liz - I'll wait to see - it just doesn't look like her. I'm going to the spoiler board to post my thoughts there, and will bring them here next week after the episode airs.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Could 4 of them have been human? Can only aliens hatch from the pods or can human "essence" be duplicated as well?

What about Skins? Can Skins be "hatched" from the Pods? Maybe Courtney, CW, Grant and Skin #4 were the other Pod Squad??

quote:In the Mom-o-gram, Mom said the podsters were the remains of something that had already happened on their planet. BUT, that doesn't mean that it happened in the *past*. (Think of it in a Terminator perspective... people being sent back to the past to correct something that has already happened in the future.)

If this is true, then why not go back to the day Max saved Liz at the Crashdown? Wouldn't THAT be the best time to go back to since that was the initial connection between Max and Liz - unless, Future-Max is maybe some sort of warped Future-Skin from the Previous-Max/Army guy no one remembers the name of?? Like if the guy Max played in Sof47 was ACTUALLY a Skin, maybe Future-Max is THAT guy coming back to save the Skins from being destroyed by the REAL Max/Liz combo!?

Wow - talk about getting confusing. Anyone understand what I'm saying!? I'm not even sure *I* get it!

quote:And BTW, as for the promo, I have to admit that I am semi-spoiled about this episode (although I don't know the whole premise...but know a little more than what was revealed in the promo). And without giving anything away, I think Future Max has a really good reason for what he says to Liz.

Anyone have a Screen Cap of this supposed woman? I don't even remember SEEING that! Maybe it was the DreamGirl in me blocking it out!

Well how did everyone like Summer of 47? I liked viewing it for clues, but again it was not the Roswell I fell inlove with, I think the Roswell we saved was cloned into something that could never be close to the original. You see when they made this clone they discovered that they had no way of cloning it's heart and soul, so they now have a shell of what was Roswell, it looks like Roswell, well sort of, but the feeling and the warmth are not there.
The last 15 minutes were the best. I think Michael and Max are going to trade places when it comes to being the sentsitive one.

The End of the World looks like it's going to suck the life out of Max and Liz. Future Max doesn't seem to be leading with his heart, asking Liz to make the present day Max fall out of love with her. Now how would we do this lady's? This is starting to look more like 90210. What could be going on in the future that would make him do this? It must have something to do with Tess. (I'm spoiler free so I'm just speculating.) It's just when ever things are looking up for them she pushs herself in between them, and I'm sure this will continue into the future.
Ok, enough sulking Evid, I thought I would post this pic to see if we could figure out who is with future Max? I don't think it's Liz. Anyone have a guess?

Where's Liz?
Evid

Anyone have any guesses? It looks like Liz's hair - sorta.

Is this Nasedo and Tic-Tac?

I DO THINK THAT IT IS FUTURE LIZ in the promos--but I am not sure.

ZERO--nice idea to tie in with the INDIANS maybe helping out somehow. I LIKE THAT AND I WOULD LIKE TO SEE THIS TIE IN---maybe they want to keep many things still a mystery to us. BUT I AM GETTING IMPATIENT.

On the other hand, I feel STILL like SUMMER of 47 was still very rushed like we are racing through everything with very little time to FEEL what is happening. Not good for the EMOTIONAL INVESTMENT.

On the other hand(or foot since I don't have any hands left) next weeks promos leads me to believe that we better invest in some heavy duty KLEENEX cuz I think we are going to be TOO EMOTIONALLY INVESTED. My GOD I was almost crying just seeing the PROMOS.

Is this Nasedo and Tic-Tac?

And if it IS Nasedo and Tic-Tac, why them? Why not Ma and Pa Pod Squad? What's the significance of these two - why were they the "chosen ones" to take care of the Pod Squad and how does it relate to the Skins or EAs? Could one be the good "care taker" (Tic-Tac) and one be the bad "care taker" (Nasedo)?

Also, don't you think it's significant that Liz played the character that had "seen things". She has the flashes now.. she saw things then.. she's DEFINITELY connected!!!

BSR

BSR

BehrSkinRug - welcome , and there are no stupid questions on this thread!! We all wonder who exactly Tic Tac is, and why he has been totally absent this season so far!

Grace Kel - to bad we can't all have a group hug after next weeks episode if the promo is a true representation of what is to come! I will need it!! BUT I have a theory about the whole thing that has a happy ending, but I can't post until after the episode because I'm spoiled and it might include some spoilage for that episode. I also agree that much of the emotion of last season is missing this season! Except at the end last night - I really liked the Michael and Liz interaction!!!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

I've thought all along that their could be other podsters. I'm going to go on record as saying I think it's possible the other chamber may be housed in the rocky hillside behind Atherton's dome. The camera shows us this spot deliberatly so.... maybe.

With 2 different groups of podsters that may explain the differences between Max's memories (the ones he speaks to Liz of) of leaving the pod chamber and the "memories" that he experiences around Tess. Perhaps the images he sees are Tess induced and they are her memories, and thet she's part of the other group of 4. I'd love it if she truely turned out to be just a decoy!!!

Of the 4 girl roles in the story of Summer 47 I like the role they gave to Liz the best! She once again showed bravery coming forward with information that was KEY the podsters knowing their history. It may have been a small part but it was important.

Did anyone notice the similarity in dress between Colin's character Cavot (in the bar when he gets Doty's aid in betraying Hal) and Tic Tac in the desert? Both had on a staw like cowboy hat, a plaid shirt, and jeans (Ithink). It just struck me that they may be trying to tell us something here. What do you all think?

I do believe Michael finally found his humanity, the precise moment being when he rose his hand and broke the bottles on the top of the truck. It was a very touching moment and I for one enjoyed it. i was also happy to see him appologize to Liz.

I know I'm in trouble for next week. I started to cry and yelled NO at the TV (I'm spoiler free, can you tell). I guess when I buy a new tape for this episode I better pick up a box of tissues too! I'm going to do a Liz here and "go on faith, a LOT of it" that the writers will reunite them and this is all just temporary. One big question though, how do you make someone fall out of love? This just isn't logical.

So, WB writers if you're reading this - Liz and Max BELONG together! Know this! Liz is the whole reason this story exists and should NEVER be pushed to the background!

Starstruck

Liz should never be on page 2!

Where IS Liz? I read in the Ron Moore interview that she and Max are the heart of the show and then "I need you to help me fall out of love with you"? I'm sorry that just isn't going to work for me.

It is really hard for us (mostly you) to put Liz's importance to the alien mythology thread together when she has 2 minutes of screen time!! I hope they know what they are doing. Because I really don't know if I can handle next weeks episode. The preview should say "next week on Roswell - Warning - drink bottle of wine before tuning in to numb yourself).

OK back to reality. What's up with the 8 pods? Would it be way to simplistic to think that they are all aliens? I mean they aren't reaching that far right now!! I do think that alot of what we go into on this thread is to advanced for the typical television viewer, but gosh that just seems too simple.

Lots of questions - no answers!!

One big question though, how do you make someone fall out of love? This just isn't logical.

So, WB writers if you're reading this - Liz and Max BELONG together! Know this! Liz is the whole reason this story exists and should NEVER be pushed to the background!

Starstruck

Starstruck - I wonder about that too! How do you fall out of love with someone?? They may figure out a way for Max to not be with Liz due to disappointment - and this may result in tension between them, BUT regardless they will ALWAYS love each other and be soulmates. Time and distance can separate them, but that connection will never disappear!! I don't care what TPTB throw at us with respect to Tess, Skins or Destiny - Liz and Max belong together, and the show (and mythology/storylines) work best when Liz and Max are working as a team!!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

OK back to reality. What's up with the 8 pods? Would it be way to simplistic to think that they are all aliens? I mean they aren't reaching that far right now!! I do think that alot of what we go into on this thread is to advanced for the typical television viewer, but gosh that just seems too simple.

Lots of questions - no answers!!

StarE - It is hard to talk about Liz's Importance when she isn't on screne much - BUT other things do have an impact - so I try to focus on those.

As far as the pods - well I have always thought it was weird that a civilization would rest their entire survival on one set of pods being sent to another planet - it just doesn't make sense. If they have the techology necessary to mix human DNA with alien essence and transport it to another planet, then they have the technology to send others - both pods and caregivers/watchers - and to have devised a complex plan to assure their survival and success. The Plan is what I'm most interested in here! To have other pods sent - for whatever reason - does not surprise me at all!

Now the big question for me - WHY IS NOBODY READING WHITAKER's FILES, and desiphering (sp?) the alien "Operations Manual"???? These seems like such a logical step - and Liz seems like the most likely person to take the lead on this! Alex also seems like a logical assistant!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Something I have been thinking about is taking a look at what role each of our characters played in Summer of 47.

Michael - reluctant hero
Maria - investigator (firecracker)
Etc..

I don't have time to do it all right now, but I do wonder how these correspond to their characters today and what importance it holds. Just a thought to keep me from thinking about next week.

I will do some more thinking and post later. What would I do without all of your wonderful ideas??

I was actually hoping that we'd see more of a role reversal with this episode. Liz/Maria/Alex/Kyle play the aliens and Max/Michael/Isabel/Tess play the humans.

Okay did anyone else notice that Michael mentions about the old man who plays SHUFFLE BOARD from FLORIDA---remember in RIVERDOG eppy Max said he sprained his ankle on the SHUFFLE BOARD COURT and Isabel had SUN STROKE all of August? HMMMMMMM.

At one point I thought RICHARD DOTY was almost LIMPING there for a minute am I crazy of what? Back to initials RD-RIVERDOG???
Was Richard Doty one of the dead in the morgue??? I wasn't sure but I thought he might have been.

Wasn't the pic of the dead soldier in the confidential file one of the soldiers on YVONNE's BUS which she disappeared from or am I crazy? HEEEELLLLLPPPP? Please?

I can't remember who posted this but it's a interesting point. Why didn't the book show all 8 podsters?

One point that hasn't ever been clear to me. Whose mom is GC? liz's dad or mom....

GraceKel: I caught that scene of Max limping also. I replayed the scene several times. He really looks like he is dragging his entire leg. Do you really think that was him in the Morgue? If not, where would Mr Doty be today?

I did love the scenes of Michael reacting with Hal. My dad would be like Hal (you young punk type of opinion) I think that this was a closure that both of them have needed for a long time. I hope Michael continues to show this side.

The bus load of soldiers did look weird and they didn't know where Yvonne (Liz) was or hear her cry. Michael was a greater distance away from the bus; he heard. Could the Army drugged everyone? I don't think that a bus load of shapeshifters could exist. However throw a bus load of drugged zombies into the mix. Or is my imagination working overtime?

Also I thought of the leaking pod as if it were human. When a woman is pregnant and starts leaking, doesn't she usually lose the baby? I'm thinking that a "47" solution had to take place. To wait until Liz would have been a infant probably would have endangered the fetus's life. Could The fetus have been implanted into some one's womb? If so whose?
Panola

Now, am I the only one that thought Max's hairdo on the promo looked like Zira from Planet of the Apes?

So never fear, the real

I think you're right. My wife has been saying that too (for the same reason), and her batting average is pretty good.

One big question though, how do you make someone fall out of love? This just isn't logical.

Unfortunately, I know the answer to that question (damn spoilers). I won't give anything away but I would definitely buy lots of boxes of Kleenex before Monday if I were you.

This might be crazy but I was wondering if the Nurse (forgot name) was an alien trying to see if Hal was good.

Okay new theory about the leaky pod and Liz's importance to the mythology. I say that the leaky pod is Liz and the stuff comming out was the alien essence. She was either stayed in there till she was ready to hatch or removed. But because the essence leaking out she is completely human.

Or if not then I still think that they made more then one of the podsters as a back up plan. Just incase something, like the leak occured.

Finally BF cut his hair a bit. The guys looked so cute all clean cut. I am really starting to wish they would give NIck more screen time. I feel sorry for him and I love his dry humor.

PS totally stoked about the 4 eppies. We are almost there yeah

Sweet Nakita - welcome! We look forward to your thoughts in the future!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Panola

Summer of 47 - I think that this show had to be more important that it seems on the surface. I think we all immediately picked up on the leaking pod and the Hal/Michael connection BUT - I think for the writers to spend a whole episode going back in time that it had to have even more significance than that.

Remember at the beginning of the show Hal told Michael that the aliens were "among us" and had dark, empty soulless eyes?
Since he ended up trying to save the pods - I dont think he was talking about the glowy aliens.
If you re-watch the show you will see the character that Max is playing repeatedly scratch behind his ear (which I think is a sign he is a skin). Also - remember how that character eventually mysteriously takes over for the Valenti-character as the commander?
Also - the busload of soldiers that looked like zombies - I think they were skins too.

What if the EA and the podsters crashed at the same time? Or the EA were waiting for the pods? What if the writers are setting up a governmental conspiricy whereby the EA have infiltrated our military/government?

Now - think to season one? Rememer when we first met Tess??? Remember when Michael went to her house and the MILITARY was there?
And Harding worked for the..... yup - MILITARY. And CW (a known EA) was invloved in the government too.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Say it isn't so!!!

1) Who's GC?

2) Where did Hal come from? How did Mike find him for this "interview"?

3) Do we know what happened to Max's character in Sof47? Like.. where is he NOW?

1)The leaking pods: I assumed they were leaking because they had been cut open,to me they looked like pea pods that had been opened. The fluid around the sacs was leaking, not the actual sacs.

2)Could it be possible that Nacedo and the other protecters were engineered as well as the royal four. One body guard per royalty. And maybe the glowing guys were delivering the royal four and the protecters. If the glowing aliens were Nacedo and friend then why didn't they shapeshift? So, could one pod have held the royal four and one their protecters?

3) I think that M/I/M (our fav podsters) "hatched" early...while Tess remained longer as they all were supposed to, thus her stronger memories and such. Maybe Nacedo was to be her protector and when she "hatched" Nacedo did as well, to find he was the only protector alive and he had to find the other three. Okay, pure speculation and wild thoughts, but hey, it could happen.

4)My final thought is concerning the upcoming episode that we are all dreading. (I agree with lots of kleenex)Think about "Run, Lola, Run" (a great movie btw), it runs thruogh three different scenarios. Maybe this "glimpse" into the future will reveal one, but we still have two other scenarios that could be run through. I mean if Max came back to change the future, why not Isabel or Michael or even Tess? Keep the faith folks... Max and Liz belong together and they will find a way!

~Sheri

Okay, I lied.......one more thought, all the loose ends that are being left are driving me crazy too. However, I believe that they are trying to build suspense for the ending of this season. All these questions...and boom! The answer. Then they can build on what they should do with these "answers". Just another silly thought.

I have a question too. If there were two sets of Pods and someone came and moved one set (we assume) the hills, then why that set? And who moved it? And.. why not move all 8 of the pods?

Also, let's assume the other 4 pods "hatched" earlier, then why wouldn't they have some sort of connection with the Pod Squad as we know it. I mean, we've seen T come out of nowhere to find the Pod Squad. We've seen Nasedo and Tic-Tac come out of nowhere to find the Pod Squad.. why hasn't the original 4 looked for the Pod Squad? OR.. could it be because of this "the longer you stay in the more aware you are" theory and hence the original 4 "hatched" very early, have little senses of anything alien and no memory of anything, except maybe "a soulmate connection"? (LIZ!?!?!)

Hmmm...

Here is a link to the WB site and the 30 second version of the trailer to EOTW.
You see a little more in the granolith room in the longer version of the trailer.

Hey.. I'm ALL for Liz being Venus, but you do realize you're basically adding 1-7. It's like saying "they've been using the letter A in Liz's script lately.. maybe it means Alien and it's a subliminal!"

Just sayin'

If there are 2 sets of 4 pods, does the statement Nacedo makes about Liz in Destiny ("She doesn't belong here") take on a whole new connotation?

Where DOES she belong?

WR

OK, One More Time:

This is your brain:

This is your brain on spoilers:

Any questions?!?

Who is Tic-tac? A second shapeshifter. All season 1, we saw two consistantly different shapeshifters: their methods of Shifting, their personalities, and odd habits. Tic-tac played, for example, Hank (Michael's foster father), then buried the real Hank's corpse, and then Shifted and had a tic-tac. He was also Dr. Margolin in Crazy. Afterwards, he morphed (in his own way) into a hiker, and ate some tic-tacs. And so on. Ed Harding consistantly did things differently. No tic-tacs, different morph, and much less warmth.

As for the leaking pod, wouldn't the aliens have been able to "heal" it? You'd think, since they can manipulate matter; and that's how healing is done.

As for the leaking pod, wouldn't the aliens have been able to "heal" it? You'd think, since they can manipulate matter; and that's how healing is done.

Do we know for a fact that the 'non pod' Aliens have the manipulation capabalities? Apart from his own features, have we ever seen Nacedo do this? I can't recall a case.

WR

WR

In WR, Harding reformed Michael's clothes into a suitable suit for his FBI impersonation. Note that it's Not Proven that Harding (rather than Tic-tac) was "The Nasedo" River Dog spoke of.

Rock - I was thinking the same thing about Liz's cell structure. If one of the pods was damaged and the infant was nurtured in a different way to birth, it would affect that child's development in many ways.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

1) Who's GC?

2) Where did Hal come from? How did Mike find him for this "interview"?

3) Do we know what happened to Max's character in Sof47? Like.. where is he NOW?

Steph - In case nobody answered your questions (I'm not caught up yet) -

GC is Grandma Claudia, Liz's grandmother who died in Leaving Normal, and someone many of us believe has a direct link somehow to the aliens.

Hal was in town for a reunion of his air squadron, but HOW Michael got hooked up with him in particular is never explained (I think).

Some think that Max's character was one of the dead doctors in the lab, but I don't think so. I don't think we know what happened to his character.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

View the trailer at the WB site though! It is worth a visit!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Anyway, I haven't seen the whole episode yet, but that leaking pod, confirmation of a second adult alien (possibly tictac?) and 4 more podsters out in the world, has got to be good for some speculation. So I'll be back when I've seen the material first-hand.

And Zero, 'eyespin' is now 'spineyes.'

1)We saw two aliens. So they weren't captured yet.

2)Michael calls what the aliens looked like and alien suit.Does that mean that they really don't look like that either and it is some kind of space suit?

3)Is Hal gonna stay on the show to help the podsters?

4)If that leaky pod was LIz's and she came out human could the govn't have taken the gooy stuff if it was the essence and made Tess.

5)Was the govn't in on the aliens crash working for the Skins along?

I think you guys are on to something about Doty. AFter they took the pods to the base he did start acting weird. And the guys on the bus. I go w/what guys are saying and they are Skins.

And yes E47 they have been featuring the number 2 quite a lot lately I agree.

I have to backtrack and read everyone's posts on this thread haven't had the time yet.

If that leaky pod was LIz's and she came out human could the govn't have taken the gooy stuff if it was the essence and made Tess.

Along the same lines, if the leaky pod was Max's maybe someone could have used the gooy "essence" and made Liz.
Two leaders for the price of one.

Reggie, I'm confused. If Tic-Tac was masquerading as Dr. Margolin, wasn't he a bad guy in league with the government? The false Dr. Margolin told Valenti that Tupolski was a mental patient, when she really wasn't. Right?

(And who else is amused by Tupolski's cross over to Angel as Darla?)

Sweet Nakita - welcome! We look forward to your thoughts in the future!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Thanks for the welcome I am so stoked to be in this thread!! thanks for the welcome

Reggie, I'm confused. If Tic-Tac was masquerading as Dr. Margolin, wasn't he a bad guy in league with the government? The false Dr. Margolin told Valenti that Tupolski was a mental patient, when she really wasn't. Right?

Welcome !

Many of us believe that Tic Tac shapeshifted into Dr. M to warn the podsters - keeping them away from Topolski who Tic Tac knew was leading them - maybe unknowingly - into a trap set by Pierce. The questions this raises is HOW did Tic Tac know what Dr. M looked like and as much as he did about what was going on? Was Tic Tac plugged into the survilance? Who Tic Tac is - one of the "mother bear" aliens in Sof4, another guardian alien set to watch over the podsters, or a guardian alien watching over Liz - is one of the biggest questions yet to be answered. I still think Tic Tac looked approvingly at Max and Liz as they slept together in the desert in SH, and wonder if Tic Tac was the source of the visions Liz had in that episode. Maybe Tic Tac is related to Liz somehow???

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Thanks a bunch! I'm still new and slightly confused . At least I've finally figured out how to use these little

see you over on the spoiler board!

I noticed that too, but I don't know what to make of it yet.

Did you notice the implied horse reference last week, when Grant Sorenson told off the sheriff? (After being interrogated at gunpoint in his own room by Valenti and Max.) S. spoke derisively of Max as "Deputy Dawg." But it's really mocking the sheriff too, since the reference is to an old parody-western cartoon series in which Deputy Dawg is sidekick to a not-too-bright sheriff, Quick-Draw McGraw, who is a cartoon horse.

(But those cartoons, along with Yogi Bear, Huckleberry Hound, etc., were on when I was a kid, and I was born in the summer of '47. How old is Grant Sorenson really?)

I am pretty sure that GC is Jeff Parker's mom. Her name is Claudia Parker so because of the last name she should be Jeff's mother. What I REALLY want to know is where is Jeff's father (and is he not "of this earth").

~Agent Christina

Here's a possible scenario that would fit that theory.

What if...
the brother that Vilandra betrayed is the leader of the EA and the one that she betrayed him for was Max. This would go a long way toward explaining why the skins don't have the Granolith (her betrayal allowed the Royals the chance to get it hidden from the skins) and why she died with Max and the others. Those two things from Surprise have been bugging me ever since they introduced them to the storyline. I'm wondering if maybe it is a case of mistaken identity on the part of the skins and they think Isabel is Max's bride not his sister. I'm still fleshing out this scenario but will try to explain where Tess, Tictac, Harding, Liz and GC fit into this a little later today.

GC is Grandma Claudia, Liz's grandmother who died in Leaving Normal, and someone many of us believe has a direct link somehow to the aliens.

Hal was in town for a reunion of his air squadron, but HOW Michael got hooked up with him in particular is never explained (I think).

Some think that Max's character was one of the dead doctors in the lab, but I don't think so. I don't think we know what happened to his character.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Thank, Zero! My posts always seem to go unanswered!? Maybe I should go simpler.

NEMO what do you think of this one?
Thanks for responding about the horse, now I remember a horse being shown in TOPOLSKY's office, in the therapists office, and Hal Carver, anywhere else, cuz I am sure there has been other instances I am forgetting, oh yes GRANDMA CLAUDIA's hospital room, oh and in CONGRESS VW office there are pics that are not hanging turned sideways with a HORSE in them.

But please someone respond to the 2 of diamonds thing?

See, this is why I have to blow off work all day and read up on these threads. You guys pick up on stuff I NEVER would! I remember this part, Grace. Of course, my simple mind never thought about the significance of the Dimaonds, but rather ths significance of Max trying to let Mr. Parker win.

NEMO what do you think of this one?
Thanks for responding about the horse, now I remember a horse being shown in TOPOLSKY's office, in the therapists office, and Hal Carver, anywhere else, cuz I am sure there has been other instances I am forgetting, oh yes GRANDMA CLAUDIA's hospital room, oh and in CONGRESS VW office there are pics that are not hanging turned sideways with a HORSE in them.

But please someone respond to the 2 of diamonds thing?[/B]

*********************************************
Grace Kel - I think you are on to something with the two of diamonds theory - and I had a thought reading your post that would tie the horse theme in.
What if the horse is a TROJAN HORSE.
The queen (LIZ) has been disguised totally in the form of a human to protect her. This imagery also works with any scenario that involves Liz (with the queen's essence) "Hidden" in the womb of a human parent (a la the Trojan Horse).
It also makes sense as to why it took so long for the podsters to "hatch" - as someone else mentioned earlier - they may have been waiting for the "Trojan horse" to arrive and the "queen" to be born.

Some of you know that I'm convinced that Liz has a tie in with the Virgin Mary. So this is the theory that I have that might prove just how Important Liz is to the salvation of mankind.
Now I'm not spoiled, I left the spoilers after the first ep and was only spoiled a little for 47 so this is pure speculation.

The pic up above is telling me that Max is looking in Liz's bedroom and has seen something that has left him stuned. Now what could that be? I hate to say it but it looks like Liz is with someone else and their not just talking.

Now for what reason has Future Max come back to talk to Liz? He wants her to make him fall out of love with her, for the sake of there planet. Future Max tells Liz the one thing that would turn him against her, would be if she was unfaithful to him. With Who?, is not important because Liz would only make it appear to present day Max that she is "with" this person, and other words, maybe they will just be sleeping in each others arms. I'm going to guess it's Kyle, because I could see him doing this to help Liz and it would be more convinceing to Max.

So how does the Virgin Mary fit in to all this? Look at the pic up above, does Liz look like a bride or the Virgin Mary.
What I "think" is going to happen is Liz is going to be so upset about all this that future Max will comfort her, their emotions will get out of control, and they will end up making love. Future Max faces a future with out Liz and a past with her that will cease to exist. Present day Liz faces a future, not only without Max's love, but with him looking down on her with disgrace. If their going to make love this would be the only chance they get.

So what now? Here comes the big connection. Liz finds out she is pregnant. Has your light bulb turned on yet? Liz is carring Max's child but present day Max never made love to Liz. Max will think it's Kyles but Kyle will know it isn't because he never was "with" Liz either. Not even future Max will know, because his memories will be lost after going back to the past.
It is going to appear to be an "Immaculate Conception." How is Liz going to explain this one to her parents when they ask, "who is the father?" Poor Liz is going to need Max more then ever now, and so much for a paternity test, they won't take that chance with the alien cells.
Let's pray that an angel,(future Liz) will come back and tell Max the hole story.

I know teen pregnancy sounds bad, but if this child is going to bring WORLD SALVATION, I think we can over look it.

WOW long post. Well I'm sure you all think I'm nuts but you have to admit this would be a great story. Let me know what you think?

Evid

Grandma Claudia is Jeffrey's mom - so Liz's dad's mom.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Evid - Amazing Theory!! WOW But I don't think TPTB will want to deal with a pregancy this early in the show. But I do agree - I will be devastated if Liz sleeps with ANYONE other than Max!!!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

EVID-well that truly would be HEARTBREAKING wouldn't it, POOR LIZ, although I would love Liz and Max to be able to make love cuz with them it is all about love not just lust or something, right. I am on the fence about this, would they go here? In this show, I mean they cut SH for gosh darn sakes, and Buffy gets away with much more.
This sounds like a story that would drag on, I mean I wouldn't want Max to hate Liz and think she had truly been with someelse for TOO LONG. I will have to roll this one over in my mind again and come back on it.

Evid what did you think about the 2 of diamonds?

I'm with GraceKel on this one.. let's hope the writers know WHERE WE'D LIKE THIS TO GO!! *ahem* (Max and Liz forever)

I always thought that Deputy Dawg's sidekick was "Musky" and a mole type critter. Wasn't Quick Draw Magraw's sidkick a small donkey called "Baboo" or something?

"And don't you for----geht it!"

WR

Reggie, I'm confused. If Tic-Tac was masquerading as Dr. Margolin, wasn't he a bad guy in league with the government? The false Dr. Margolin told Valenti that Tupolski was a mental patient, when she really wasn't. Right?

Wrong. "Dr. Margolin" intercepted the podsters before they got to the rendevous where Pierce was waiting to trap both the podsters and Topulski. (Remember, Pierce had a video camera in Michael's app't., and saw the meeting being set up.) "Dr. Margolin" saved the podsters, and calmed things down at a tense point. He also convinced Sherrif Valenti that the whole "aliens" thing was bunk. If Valenti hadn't found the orb that Michael dropped, he would not be "in" on the secret. The real Margolin might have been with Pierce, but ours wasn't.

If you are going to review the episode, notice particularly how the shapeshifter changes. Then look at any of "Harding's " changes. They ARE different!

(And who else is amused by Tupolski's cross over to Angel as Darla?)

[/B]

Just wanted to state...Julia Benz first played Darla on Season one or two of Buffy when she was killed, twice. So she actually crossed over the other way. Sorry, just had to clear that up.

Rocklowery, that's exactly what I was thinking! I also wondered if there was a connection with the death of Sheila Hubble. Perhaps the bad guys also travelled forward in time but got their dates wrong and killed the pregnant Sheila, believing that she was carrying the baby with the bride's essence. I think the two sets of 4 pods were divided between the two aliens. Our hybrids were hidden in the pod chamber by Tictac, whilst the other set were hidden elsewhere by the other protector (possibly Ed Harding). After Tictac was captured by the FBI, Harding tried to find the bride's essence, followed the baddies to Sheila but was too late to save her, which is why he is haunted by the memory. Out of guilt, he then engineers a replacement aka Tess who he indoctrinates with the destiny with Max idea.

Sorry if this idea is redundant, but it could explain "we've got to get rid of her". The baddies finally caught up with her but didn't know who Max was, or that he would be there to rescue her.

Oh, that's sickening!
Liz wouldn't be the Liz we all have known afterwards, even if she didn't get pregnant. I'm all for character growth, but this would be a major change, and not a good one...

Evid - while I dont really like the idea of a pregnant Liz - I DID think that her image in the "Bridal Veil" looked much more religious than bridal. I am just not sure how it all ties in. I have been thinking alot about the sacrifice she is asked to make in EOTW and how the theme of being willing to sacrifice your true love/desire only then to be rewarded with gaining that true love back because you have proven yourself "worthy" is a pretty strong archetype (think of Abraham and Issac, Cupid and Psyche). I think all this fits in with the image of Liz as a "choosen one".

Evid - ...I DID think that her image in the "Bridal Veil" looked much more religious than bridal. I am just not sure how it all ties in. I have been thinking alot about the sacrifice she is asked to make in EOTW and how the theme of being willing to sacrifice your true love/desire only then to be rewarded with gaining that true love back because you have proven yourself "worthy" is a pretty strong archetype (think of Abraham and Issac, Cupid and Psyche). I think all this fits in with the image of Liz as a "choosen one".

Starbox - I love this thread, too! I never imagined when I started the original thread that it would take on such a life of its own!! I'm so glad to have a place to go an post my thoughts and Learn so much from others!! That goes for everyone here - and Grace Kel - where would we be without you dissecting every scene? I truly appreciate what you bring to the thread!!

I also have to agree with the "sacrifice" that Liz is asked to make goes to prove that she is more than a mere mortal! I have always believed she is the "chosen" human being (whether of alien or not origin???) to help save humanity. Too many clues, and to go along with the Virgin Mary analogy - what better choice than a simple shop girl from a small town!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

I was just at the Dreamer thread when I got this idea. Someone may already said this if so I'm sorry. The more I think about this the more it may be true.

Maybe Liz is half skin, and Liz was Vilandra, who betrayed her skin brother because she was in love with Max. Maybe Whitaker was telling the truth all along, but got the wrong person, and switched her story around. This would kind of explain why Michael and Isabel didn't trust Liz at first. Oh oh...and that would explain why someone tried to kill Liz. Maybe TicTac and Harding knew Liz was a half/skin and shapeshifted into the two men at the Crashdown that tried to kill Liz.
That would mean that Sheila might have been a skin, or maybe good ole Grandma Claudia was a skin maybe that's why Max couldn't heal her.

I thought that Summer of 47 would give some more insight as to who TicTac(Nasedo) and Harding are, but no such luck.

If all this sound crazy. Forgive me.

GraceKel: I need to do a little more research on the number 2, but for now, and this is just off the top of my head. In Greek Mythology DIAMONDS mean ETERNAL LOVE. Sounds like Max and Liz to me, maybe when Max changed that card he choose eternal love above everything or anyone else. Hope that helps.

Evid

I'm in the fuddy-duddy boat too. This would be a huge turn-off for me. I thought 4 Squares had too much sex in it. I really made me wonder where the show was going.

I have read these posts and have found them to be most intriguing. My question is what is the significance of the leaky pod? There has to be some meaning.

- Moe

Sorry if this idea is redundant, but it could explain "we've got to get rid of her". The baddies finally caught up with her but didn't know who Max was, or that he would be there to rescue her.

I just posted my question about the leaky pod and completely missed this post... I am not sure how I did, but... I apologize for posting a question that has already been discussed. Me thinks that I have been staring at a computer screen too much today(I am a Web Developer.).

*******************************************
Evid -
I am spoiled about what happens in EOTW so I cant answer this question :-(
(I know, I know - but I always read the end of books first so I can relax and enjoy the ride without rushing to get to the end :-)

BUT - I WILL say one non-spoiler related thing to encourage all of us dreamers out there. Remember as you watch this episode that EOTW is written by Jason Katims - and Max and Liz are his "baby" - I really believe he is as invested in them together as a couple (if not more so) than we are and we can have faith that anything that happens in EOTW will happen for a reason.
Also - look at this thread - there is SO much mythology connected to and dependant on Liz Parker. And so much of that mythology directly connects her to Max. Max and Liz are not just a high school romance and Roswell is not Beverly Hills 90210. I have a great deal of faith in Katims and Moore and trust that they are crafting a well-written science fiction show with a dramatic edge and not a soap opera :-)

Everything is gonna be Alright :-)

I must also say that I DO HAVE COMPLETE FAITH IN JASON KATIMS, however, I think he has been strong armed about the show this season so I remain a little bit worried, sorry.

ZERO--of course I LOVE THIS THREAD TOO SO MUCH. It has been an AWESOME experience for me sharing ideas(even stupid ones) and reading others ideas as well. Sometimes my head spins a little bit reading so many posts but it really has added to the whole ROSWELLIAN experience.

I for one thank all of you RBI's or MYTHOLOGISTS or whatever we call ourselves.

Oh and Zero as for finding these little details, ya know they don't name SLO_MOING GRACEKELLING for nothing ya know, you must earn that title LOL!!!!!

I must also say that I DO HAVE COMPLETE FAITH IN JASON KATIMS, however, I think he has been strong armed about the show this season so I remain a little bit worried, sorry.

Dont Worry GraceKel!!
Look at all the beautiful symbolism you have found so far! Did that happen by accident??? No way! Are they just going to throw it all out the window??? No way!
And as for pressure from TPTB to change the show - I think the WB KNOWS that they are winning their demographic in young women for one reason and one reason only - and that is the relationships (esp Max/Liz) that hooked them to begin with. I am not worried at all. In fact - I'd be MORE worried if they had rushed to hook Max and Liz back up right away. What I have seen so far this season is an attempt to build a larger framework of a story - the relationships were all defined last season but now they have to set the stage for the larger sci-fi story which will be the only thing that can keep the show going (unless it turns into a soap opera). I really think that once that stage is set that the relationships will be resolved and the characters will move forward to deal with the sci-fi elements of the story. Like we have all said - once Liz and Max find out that they are TRULY destined for each other - NOTHING will be able to seperate them. It only makes sense that they would not bring them together immediately - it would ruin the story (and then what would we have to speculate once Liz's mythology was out in the open?? :-) :-)

The only thing that scares me is that the show could get pulled before Katims had a chance to pull everything together. Remember - I was a fan of MSCL and Relativity and with MSCL I got left with Jordan Catalano bopping RayAnn in the back of a car and in Relativity I got left with Isabell staring at that stupid carousel after breaking up with Leo. UGH. Talk about unresolved issues. But I dont think the WB will yank Roswell mid-season so hopefully we can safely assume that we WILL get the satisfaction of seeing everything get tied together eventually.

On some thread Nemo suggested that the nurse later changed her name. GC wasn't a nurse, but she was a science person.

ShapeShifter where have you been hiding lately, don't see you much over here LOL!!!
I saw that post of Nemos about Yvonne, I thought of this myself but not sure.
Tell Nemo to come over and look at the 2DIAMONDS theory and the TROJAN HRS that Starbox and I have come up with. And what do you think about it yourself?

GraceKel: Did you remember on Monsters that Liz and Alex were assigned to do a report together on McCarthy. Liz said to Alex
"McCarthy," almost like she was trying to remember where she had herd that name before. As for Michelle, guess what the Sheriff's wife name was? YES Michelle. LoL
He mentioned her name on Heatwave when he was on a date with Amy (Maria's Mom).
Sorry Grace, that's about as sophisticated
as I'm going to get. Just like Liz, I'm just a small town girl with my small town ways.

Evid

I also have to agree with you Starbox and Grace Kel that we have to have faith in JK and the influence he has over the writers - Liz and Max are too tied together to separate them permanently.

See you all tomorrow on the Boards!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

So.. here's my plea to my fellow R.B.I. There's a race for a new Mod on FF and GraceKel and I have already been there to vote for Zero. I don't know if he's interested, but I think he does a FABULOUS job of this thread and that's a great reason to share him with the whole FF world.

So.. if you agree. Go vote!! And Zero: if you're interested 1) go start a thread and 2) start selling yourself!

I think the fact that the snake was a diamondback could be a hint that one of the 2 diamonds is a skin--the bride seems the obvious choice don't you think?

Well, better get back to work before the boss gets upset!

I wonder where are the other four of the pod squad.

---------------
Applesaucer, Dreamgirl,
Polarist, Lizizard, Catfighter,
R.B.I.

I think the fact that the snake was a diamondback could be a hint that one of the 2 diamonds is a skin--the bride seems the obvious choice don't you think?

Well, better get back to work before the boss gets upset!

OK, I think I'm in Roswell overload - my brain is dying. Doty is Max's character from Sof47? And who's Cavitt?

So.. here's my plea to my fellow R.B.I. There's a race for a new Mod on FF and GraceKel and I have already been there to vote for [b]Zero. I don't know if he's interested, but I think he does a FABULOUS job of this thread and that's a great reason to share him with the whole FF world.

So.. if you agree. Go vote!! And Zero: if you're interested 1) go start a thread and 2) start selling yourself!

[/B]

Steph - Thanks for the vote of confidence - BUT first "he's" a "She" - that's right, I'm a women! Just a very analytic women. (My husband told me I was the most logical women he had ever met - Scary!! I also love it when I'm totally irrational, but logical, when I get mad! ) As far as a moderator goes - I don't have the time, though I love "moderating" this thread!! BUT THANK YOU FOR THE COMPLIMENT!! I truly appreciate it!

Grace Kel and Rocklowery - the beer clues are amazing catches. We know props are used to convey clues, so these definitely have meanings. I think it is interesting that we often used the snake symbol to represent Tess, and then along comes the Skins that shed their skins like snakes - ummmmmm!

I've got time to work on the intro later today, so when we get to the 13th thread, I will be ready to go!!! I think this thread will be burning up after TEOTW episode!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"
(Can you tell I just rediscovered the smiles? )

Zero you do a fabulous job on the summaries and they are really appreciated. GraceKel I always enjoy you observations on whatever thread I read them. Evid that is quite a theory for Liz. I think part of it might come true, but I'm just not ready for the pregnant Liz with future Max's baby.

Two things I'd like to comment on. I agree with what has been mentioned concerning Yvonne. GC wouldn't have been Claudia Parker at the time of the crash. She would have had a maiden name. What was Yvonne's last name? White? Well how does Claudia Yvonne White (or whatever the last name is) sound? Or perhaps Yvonne Claudia White? She could have started going by her other name after some life changing event and then married Grandpa Parker (son of the Parker's that owned the bar.

As far as the life altering event: she witnesses the alien autopsy and then is obducted by the men on the bus. They did look pretty "spaced out" when Hal boarded the bus. She could have been given the leaking pod for safe keeping and medical attention, since she is a nurse. Or the aliens could have implanted the queen's essence in her to be passed down through Jeffery to Liz.

The difference between the professions could be explained by her making in a career change.

And now I can't remember what the other thought was that I had. Old age is so tough on the memory. I'll post again when I remember.

I'm with the rest of you that Liz and Max have got to be together eventually. Maybe this will be the trial that proves that they are both royal, strong and necessary to lead this fight. I want to have faith in Jason Katims and Ron Moores' ability to spin a fascinating tale. With TEOTW looming large in front of us, do we have any other choice than to have faith in them?

DeeDee

Have to admit I didn't grok those theories yet.

But just slightly OT, over on Qfanny's anagram thread I posted:
Liz Important to Mythology =

A LIGHT LIT MOM ON TYPO TRY OZ
(Liz noticed that the mommogram seemed to have some typos)

TRY MY POT--A MOON-LIT OZ
(Liz's interpretation of the mommogram, or Liz needs a little escape after the
mommogram message?)

TRY A LIGHT ZOOM ON MY POT
(hmm...just say no)

YO, TRY A LIGHT MINT PLOT ZOOM
(Instead, Bring back TicTac)

LILY MIGHT NOT TRY A POT ZOOM
Whose Lily, and why won't she?

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

On the other hand...
Liz had to put up with a lot of stuff when Max was being "courted" by Tess. All that kissing, etc. She stuck by Max, only by faith in him. My guess is, it's Max's turn to squirm. Know this, and hope:

November is ratings "sweeps"!
---
This is your brain:

This is your brain on spoilers:

Any questions?

Zero - I think you would be an awesome moderator :-) :-) - and I always thought you were a woman.

GraceKel - I think we must be seperated at birth. The scene that hooked me on Roswell was the one of the three aliens watching the crash party. I LOVED that shot. At that moment I knew that I was going to be totally addicted.
I do agree that this season has been missing some of the slower character-driven scenes - but I really do think its just because they are widening the story. I think EOTW will have LOTS of the good old emotionally involved scenes and I am really looking forward to it.

Great catch on the beer label - I think it is definately significant. And I really like the thought of Yvoone being linked to GC.

I cant wait to see how all of this gets resolved - I have a feeling EOTW is going to give us alot more clues to ponder.

But I did notice that at the beginnig Liz says "9/23rd - 5 days ago I died," and then at the end says "9/24th - 5th days ago I died" - so which one is it. I know later in another episode the shooting is set as 9/17th - soooo, I guess the writers weren't always on top of these little details - I bet they never realized the anal retentive fans they would end up with!

Also - I want to congradulate those of you who are spoiled but have refrained from saying anything on this thread! I KNOW it is hard, but those who are not spoiled and lurk or post here I'm sure appreciate it! And it makes this thread open to all!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

ROCKLOWERY-yes I know it wasn't a perfect 2 it was kind of snaky looking but since I always had that 2 of Diamonds in the back of my mind, wondering what it meant, it just jumped out at me LOL!!!!

ROZBURTIE nice ideas, tell you honestly I thought the clues were very sketchy about Yvonne White, and for that matter Betty Osario(not sure how to spell that) I could not get a clear clue from this, the episode I thought would give us more than it did. Were they trying to say both of these women went missing and used for HUMAN DNA or something-not sure. I do think that Grandma Claudia ties in somehow but I don't think we were given enough to figure anything out, they love to keep that mystery going right LOL!!!!

Zero I posted that along time ago about the differences of Sept 17th, 18th, and 19th but remember in ASK NOT when Brody explains how his abduction went and then suddenly it was two days later and he was in WV, it made me think of this, so I am not sure it is a blooper just something not explained yet in the world of SCIFI---just like MOTHER's MESSAGE being on May 14th--no sorry how could this be blah blah-----something still a mystery here I think.

Oh Evid about the McCarthy report from Missing eppy--YES I along with Starstruck posted about this at practically the same time. I also noted at the time we were seeing a lot of red and gold comet containers and all I could think of was the COMMIES are coming--THE RED SCARE-MCCARTHYISM.

On Ask Not did any of you notice the Eagle Mural in Liz's office. Well I new as soon as I saw it that this was a great clue.

Here is a Native American Mythology story about the eagle.

When the earth was created, a great thundercloud appeared on the horizon. Flashing lightning and thundering it's call, it descended toward the treetops. As the mists cleared, there was an eagle perched on the highest branches. He took flight and flew slowly down to the ground. As he approached the earth, he put forward his foot, and as he stepped upon the ground, he became a man.

Now this leader part sounds like our Liz.

Of all the birds, our Creator chose the Eagle to be the leader. The Eagle flies the highest and sees the furthest of all creatures. The Eagle is a messenger to the Creator.

This is about the feathers of an eagle,
remember Max's speach on Balance, he talked about needing to find his balance.

The eagle feather has two sides. If the feather had only one side then Eagle could not fly. On one side we find mind/intellect, body/movement and spirit/emotion. Once these are balanced a person is balanced. On the other side there is institution/education (and not just Western style education), process (the movement on one's path) and ceremony. Once these are balanced then a person's life is balanced. When the two sides of the feather are balanced then we have proper behaviour.

The part about process (the movement on one's path) reminded me of Riverdogs advise to Liz on Riverdog.

Do you know what happens when I look up something that might only relate to Liz? I find out it connects her to Max. It makes me so happy to solve these clues, because I find proof that Liz and Max truly belong together, they are connected.

Evid

Do you know what happens when I look up something that might only relate to Liz? I find out it connects her to Max. It makes me so happy to solve these clues, because I find proof that Liz and Max truly belong together, they are connected.

Evid

******************************************
Evid -
I LOVE it :-) - that has to mean what we think it means.

Also - I had a thought about the granolith.
I dont think the thing Isabel found IS the granolith. Thats why Tess and Harding didnt just pack up and quit the charade (yes - I am assuming they are nasty evil aliens).
In the 30 second promo of EOTW you see Max put a crystal-looking thing in the "garnolith". I think that crystal thing is what the EA are after - and I think you have to have whatever it is to make the time travel work.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm - cant wait till Monday :-) :-)

Zero - how do I vote for you as moderator??

I've watched the WB trailer about a million times and I'm think the person with future Max is future Liz. And it looks like something is wrong with her cause he gives her an injection or something like that.

As much as I'm going to hate this episode I think it's going to be goooood! And I think this obsticle to their relationship is only going to make them stronger for when they get past it.

I've been away from the computer for a couple days and wow the things you all talked about amaze me. My job took me out of town yesterday where my first appointment was in room ...104 and today I was given a check and the persons address # was ...104!!!! Sometimes it amazes me how life imitates Roswell!

huggybehr- as to why Hal immediatly started telling his story to a random kid. I got the impression that Hal may have been dying from some of the things he said to Michael. For instance when Michael tells Hal he shouldn't smoke, Hal says my doctors say it doesn't matter what I do. So, I'm thinking Hal was looking at this as maybe a last chance to share what he'd seen and give himself some closure. Who better to share it with than a young kid who might not be so jaded. The question then becomes can the aliens heal him. Remember what Brody said, that his cancer dissapeared after his abduction. Hal has already proven himself to be an alli.

GraceKel- boy do you know me- I jumped right on the name of the dead soldier being McCarthy! Just another thought on the horse topic. Philip means lovers of horses. When Max and Liz have their accident because of Mr. Ed they are on a back road that Philip Evans used to take them on. Don't know if there's any relevance but... About the diamond back beer. Michael changes the orange soda to diamond back beer. I can't remember if he'd seen Hal drink this brand or did he somehow just "know" that this was Hal's brand. Also, about diamonds- they make me think of royalty like in a bejeweled crown or tiara.

GraceKel- What did you think about the similarity of the clothing Alex's character (Cavet?) and TicTac's in the desert when he's looking over Max and Liz? Are they trying to tell us something her and if so what?

Evid- I just love the way you come up with these amazing story lines. Although what you said would make sesce I hope it doesn't come true! I'd rather see a big Lizzie and Max wedding and then alien babies! :D call me old fashioned! Hey Evid I noticed and posted about the Eagles on CW's office walls and also on the front of the bus Kyle arrives home on!

I must say in regards to Monday nights upcoming episode if I were Liz I would doubt the future Max and his motives. I would wonder if he was a SS, after all Harding already fooled her once. Therefor I think we will definetly see a kiss between future Max and present day Liz, so she can see that he's still him!

StarBox- Thank you fo your encouraging posts you are the Liz mythology cheerleader and my hero for the night!

Oh I just had to share - I was happy that Yvonne was Liz's name because Yvonne is my middle name!

Starstruck

Concerning Yvonne's disappearance: did you notice that the area where the bus is parked and she disappears, is in front of bldg 421, the SAME BLDG that houses the crash debris. Hanger 20 is part of that building (another 2 reference for you)--this is where Hal goes to do the supposed "inventory" for Cassidy the day after she disappears.

Evid--I loved the Eagle parallel, very interesting!!! Think they'll be including anymore indian reservation or Riverdog scenes?

Also, has anyone listened carefully to Doty's dialog? Many times it sounds like he's talking about a different incident, especially in the drunken scene.

Rocklowery--yes I did notice them focus on the 2 again in front of the hangar, I did not realize the bus was in front of that same building-well that adds something doesn't it. I think I have to watch this episode more times to get more out of it though, although I am sure it is power packed with clues YET TO BE DISCOVERED.

HEY I just thought of something right this second-----Hal says to Richie D "don't worry Richie you are still going to get your WHITE picket fence!!!" Isn't Yvonnes last name WHITE???????

Oh I have to pick up my daughter will continue when I come back.

HEY I just thought of something right this second-----Hal says to Richie D "don't worry Richie you are still going to get your WHITE picket fence!!!" Isn't Yvonnes last name WHITE???????
[B]

GraceKel! It feels like ages since I've posted on this thread. Frankly, I am having a hard time coming up with new Liz stuff. We've seen so little of her this season. But yes, I bet there are clues in the Sof47 that we have yet to be unveiled. Will the VCR last????

Nice catch with the WHITE tie-in. I am as always impressed!

Celeste

Did anyone else think that Richard Doty and James Cavett were the two dead in with the pods? I am not sure but I thought they might be.

But please someone respond to the 2 of diamonds thing?[/B][/QUOTE]
_____________________________
I don't know about the 2 of Diamonds thing, but I have a few more to add to the horse. The most obviouse thing being the horse that Max nearly ran over in "Blood brothers". Also, that gross picture of the bloody eye that everyone thought was a cow, I always thought it looked more like a horse.

QFANNY-you know we discuss EVERYTHING on this thread DOWN TO THE LAST DETAIL--cuz we know somehow, some way, it all relates back to LIZ LOL!!!!

Rocklowery--what did you think about Richard Doty scratching so much? This was really throwing me off---are they going to say that Max is a SKIN??? And all that talk about whether they were on the RIGHT SIDE???? I know it all means something but I haven't watched this enough to figure it out. Do you have any further thoughts on this?

quote:Originally posted by GraceKel:
Okay I looked at that BOTTLE OF BEER again and it actually says 2 DIAMONDS BACK 2 OF DIAMONDS get it?
a horse being shown in TOPOLSKY's office, in the therapists office, and Hal Carver, anywhere else, cuz I am sure there has been other instances I am forgetting, oh yes GRANDMA CLAUDIA's hospital room, oh and in CONGRESS VW office there are pics that are not hanging turned sideways with a HORSE in them.But please someone respond to the 2 of diamonds thing?

Good catch about the 2 of diamonds GRACEKEL. I may have a reference for it, but I'll have to look over the weekend. I cannot place the painting with the people and the horses (I assume you are referring to the side-ways tall painting that Max is standing next to in the publicity still?) It would be interesting to identify this painting. It must be there for a reason. I missed the horse in CG's hospital room so I will take a look.

As for the horse, you might want to go to the S&S thread (page 1 ) or follow the link below to a Greek Wars page. NEMO had posted once on the BATTLE OF MARATHON, but I focused on the TROJAN WARS because of the horse + bridal picture (I mentioned this on some thread after S&B aired). Very interesting, and potentially relevant, history. See what you think.

[b]See Signs& Symbols…thread (page 1): http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/000381.html
from post of 10-05-2000:

……Think about Greek history and great battles. Those who have been on the boards back in March or April, recall NEMO's post about the BATTLE OF MARATHON. That model horse and the bridal picture on the shelf next to the therapist in S&B took on new meaning !!

Great reading, particularly the TROJAN WARS in GREEK BATTLES:
http://www.crystalinks.com/greekwars.html
Enjoy this site, but turn your speaker down or off, it has a loud audio plug-in......

Rosta~~~~ ~~~~

I agree that the leaking pod is of perticular importance. Writers and Directors don't just put things like that in there for no reason. and you'll might think me a simplton, but why couldn't that podster, the "queen", have just died. Leaving the way open for the very special, but still human Liz. I'm all for Tess being an imposter.

Those mama bear aliens where interesting but brought up more questions. Hal said they had large black eyes, but the glowing aliens, well, I couldn't even tell if they had them.

As for the rest of the theory's that I've just gotten finished reading, you'll are really reading more into it than I would ever catch! I'm not even going to try to comment. My head is spinning from it all.

BTW, my stomach is already in knots about EOTW. and I'm not going to get to see it for a whole nother two weeks!

Okay I was just thinking in the HEATWAVE eppy Amy D is talking to Jeff P in the Crashdown and she is showing him these straws---and you see these and one of them even GLOWS-----now one was red and one was blue. NOW we know that LIZ GLOWS--but does MAX?

DeeDee

Zero
"Where's Liz?" :roswell_ liz:

Now, All of the 1947 characters are parallels of the teens who are played by the same actors. For instance, as my TA pointed out today, at first Rich tells Hal to "lay low" for awhile (like Max with Michael). Michael and Maria's relationship is clearly paralleled. So Liz must be paralleled by Yvonne. But I'm not sure exactly how. Anyone???

[b]Now, All of the 1947 characters are parallels of the teens who are played by the same actors. For instance, as my TA pointed out today, at first Rich tells Hal to "lay low" for awhile (like Max with Michael). Michael and Maria's relationship is clearly paralleled. So Liz must be paralleled by Yvonne. But I'm not sure exactly how. Anyone???[/B]

how's this...
yvonne didn't know what was going on about the autopsy until a general told her. when liz was healed, she didn't really understand how max healed her until he told her he was an alien. yvonne was told by a general and, although max isn't a general, he is a holding, if not high ranked ruler. as yvonne is kidnapped or whisked away so that she has no involvement, this season is centered around the alien mythology and liz is pushed into the background (for now).

just my rambling thoughts.

***OR*** the whisking away parallel could be the Maxcedo affair! So maybe Yvonne was rescued!

Good night now. I'll check back in the morning.

Rocklowery--what did you think about Richard Doty scratching so much? This was really throwing me off---are they going to say that Max is a SKIN??? And all that talk about whether they were on the RIGHT SIDE???? I know it all means something but I haven't watched this enough to figure it out. Do you have any further thoughts on this?[/B]

Hey GraceKel -
That was me that mentioned about the scartching. Doty scratches behind his ear a couple of times in the episode. I know one of the times is when hal confronts him at the hanger (this is something I have never seen Jason Behr - the actor- do - so I dont think it was just accidental that it kept happening).
Now look at Ask Not - in the scene where Courtney asks if someone will cover for her so she can use the bathroom (and go shed) - she scratches at the back of her ear in the exact same way.
I think Doty was definately a skin - but I dont think Max is one. I think they just needed a lead actor to play that part.

And now for a random thought:

One thing we know for sure about the EA vs. the podsters is that the EA can handle drinking alcohol (CW was drinking as she shed Pierce's files and if we assume Doty was an EA then he was drinking the beer) and the podsters cant. I am waiting anxiously to see if Tess will drink anything stronger than coke :-)!!! Does anyone remember if Harding and Tess had any liquor in their house???

I can't stop puzzling over the Richard Doty ear scratching. It was such an obvious gesture that it can mean only one thing, the skins had infiltrated earth long before the podsters arrived.

It reminded me of this scene in 4 Square (one of the few I can bear to re-watch in that episode!) talking about Tess

Liz: she's an alien Max
Max: so am I
Liz: but what if she's...
Max: the bad kind, one of the monsters people have been so afraid of since the crash.

It could be that the bad kind were already here long before the crash.

GraceKel you will find the expanded trailer at thewb.com. When the person falls to the floor is when I think it looks most like Liz. What do you think? On that trailer you can stop it (or Gracekel it) at any interval, so it makes it easy to take a really close look.

I watched SO47 again last night with some of my addicted friends and I think you've got something with Doty scratching his ear. He does it at the crash site and at the hanger where the truck is parked. And the limp at Parker's was also very pronounced. I too caught a possible double meaning in his patriotic speeches. I'm beginning to think that Doty just might have been a skin. I also thought that one of the masked dead guys in the room with the pods looked like him.

As far as the scratching being a Jason mannerism, I did remember him doing it once before. In Leaving Normal after Michael's "Feeling frustrated, Ghandi?" comment, Max reach back and scratched the back of his neck. But I don't think it was exactly the same gesture. The ear scratching in SO47 was more deliberate and out of place.

...unless both Whittaker and Doty had fake liquor to drink. In both cases they planned to look drunk and not be drunk. But if this is the case, it doesn't seem like very good writing to use the same trick in supposedly unconnected situations.

Also slightly OT: thinking about the name "Doty." Maybe an annagram for "Toady" (some one who blindly follows orders)?

And GraceKel or Zero or anyone else: What do you think of my theory of Yvonne's scream/capture being an intended parallel of Liz's Maxcedo kidnapping? If so, maybe Yvonne was captured by Max/Doty The Skin? And since Liz was saved (I think) so Max wouldn't freak out, what would the parallel here be? Maybe Yvonne's DNA was saved to make a new podster to replace the damaged one? But the white picket fence....

...which still reminds me of the crosses at Arlington cemetary where the fallen in battle are buried and which was Agent Stephens address...

if yvonne was whisked away as well as betty, they could have been killed or they could have been impregnated by the skins to make their own hybrids and so forth.

just my take.

The more I look at SO47 I think Doty was a Skin. Someone came up w/a theory many threads ago that the podsters alien were blown out to the sky by the evil aliens-Skins-. The Skins could have followed the others here, but since they landed safely were able to infultate the army base.

I think it is kinda funny they land a few years after the war ended. Were they planing an invasion then, but were scared away somehow?

I don't think the lady who comes w/Max is Liz because if he is trying to stop Liz from being w/present Max he wouldn't have come back to earth w/future Liz. That would defeat the purpose.

But one other thing. Though again, Liz has not been very integral, it seems as though each eppy so far has each been important to the podsters, maybe except Tess.

S&B-kinda about all of them.

AN-Mostly about Max and how he should lead.

Surprise-about Isabel

SO47-BF has the lead as Michael and young Hal.

EOTW-We know is going to have a lot of Liz.

So what of Tess, none of these eppies have her as the lead. Probably because ultimately she is not one of them.

[B]

In rewatching summer of 47, I also noticed this and thought than one of the dead guys was Doty. Plus they really lingered over his dead body and showed his face reflected in the mirror. I definately think it was Doty. I recently rewatched the UFO Convention and noticed that Hubble referred to the victims as innocent bystanders who happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, but I really began to wonder if they might all be skins.

Nemo and QFanny, I think Jason is a very good actor, and he does not normally do obvious gestures. His usual character mannerisms just seem so natural you hardly notice them, whereas the ear scratching in summer of 47 is so pronounced that several people have commented on it. I think it's more than Jason having an off day!

GraceKel- yes, I did notice that River Dog had a gimp to the leg, and Doty definitely does in the bar.

Calling Agent redhawk- could you please use your talents to post a frame of S47? What I'm looking for is the shot of the dead man with the surgical mask that we see in the round mirror just as Michaels character is leaving the morgue. What I'm looking for is to see if this is indeed Doty. Jason has those unmistakable, beautiful eyes and if I can see it in a still picture form I'm almost sure I'll be able to tell if it's him. My VCR's slo mo is jumpy and unclear so I couldn't tell.

About Doty maybe being a skin. He says to Hal, "A lot of people are very very upset. They wanted to GET RID OF YOU but I convinced them to treat you like ONE OF US. " Hmmmm doesn't the get rid of you sound an awful like the pilot when we hear the shootrs say we've got to get rid of her, and one of us- who are the us, the skins?,it just doesn't sound like he's refering to the military.

An observation- if you slo-mo (I mean GraceKel) on the 2 MP's and the other officer at the morgue door when Hal pulls the fire alarm you'll notice that both the MP's give chase but the officer doesn't move. Infact, the officer lifts his hand in that familiar SS mode and touches the moulding of the door. Was he there to help get the pod's to safety?

I noticed the glowing skin of the uninjured pods was textured and dry looking but the one that was leaking was smooth and slimey looking.

What I want to know is why did it take 45 years for the podsters to hatch, that's an awfully long gestation period. Was it planned this way or did the crash damage them all in some way causing a delayed birth?

Starstruck

I'm trying to resist looking at spoilers today - but I'm weak!!

I'm all set to put up the new thread when this one fills up - which looks like it will happen before TEOTW is televised!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

What I want to know is why did it take 45 years for the podsters to hatch, that's an awfully long gestation period. Was it planned this way or did the crash damage them all in some way causing a delayed birth?

Starstruck

that's what i was wondering also. why would it be 42 years before max,isabel, & mike come out of the pods. if their essence was cloned, it must have been really fast to get the human dna and inject them into the incubation pods before they were being carted to the base by rich/max and hal/mike.

unless the craft had landed on earth days/months before and had gotten the dna and was to fly out of earth when something went wrong and crashed and w/ it were the incubating pods. but why would it not hatch for 42 years? unless, it did hatch and the podsters were another batch hatched up.

hhmm... 42 years 4, 2. the royal 4. 2 sets of them.

just rambling thoughts.

And GraceKel or Zero or anyone else: What do you think of my theory of Yvonne's scream/capture being an intended parallel of Liz's Maxcedo kidnapping? If so, maybe Yvonne was captured by Max/Doty The Skin? And since Liz was saved (I think) so Max wouldn't freak out, what would the parallel here be? Maybe Yvonne's DNA was saved to make a new podster to replace the damaged one? But the white picket fence....

[/B]

I do think the white picket fence line is important - because it got repeated twice. I am not quite sure what it means but it has been bothering me trying to tie it all in.
I dont have last seasons episodes on tape because I was still not ready to admit to my husband just HOW much I love Roswell (but he is hooked this season so I am out of the closet!)
Anyway - in Destiny - I *think* I remember seeing a house with a white picket fence in the shot of the "beeping" "It Has Begun" houses at the very end?????

As for the ear scratching - I think that because it was 1) a repeated gesture and 2) the exact gesture that we saw Courtney do before she "shed" that it was not unintentional.

And I think the idea that all of the "victims" of Nasedo could have been skins is veeery interesting.

:-) :-) :-)

Zero - if you manage to stay away from the scene by scene spoilage of EOTW I will be soooooooooooooooo impressed. I admit that I read it first thing this morning before going to work :-) I have no self control!

My reasoning- 1. the ear tugging everyone noticed.

2. The apparently-but-not-really drunk trick. It is similar to Whitaker's trick on Tess. The Podsters can't drink any alcohol without getting drunk- perhaps something they share with the Skins. So, this is evidence that Doty is also a Skin, there is a connection between the situations making it good, not merely repetitive, scripting. (I think we've seen him drink some... maybe the Skins have more tolerance than Podsters but less than humans?)

Oops... no mention of Liz... but clearly whether Doty was a Skin has a bearing on what happened to Yvonne. So it is related, I just don't know exactly how.

Oops... no mention of Liz... but clearly whether Doty was a Skin has a bearing on what happened to Yvonne. So it is related, I just don't know exactly how.

bkwrm79-Stargazer,
That would be where my equation fits in which Doty The Max-Skin is to Maxcedo as Yvonne The Disappeared is to Liz The Kidnapped.

But I have to admit when I just rewatched the ep with my daughter that we didn't think it was a sign of itchy skin...but then as soon as I came over here to this thread, I was so0 sure it was...

And here's the latest tweak on my ol' basic theory: Back on the Warring Planet the Peacemakers hatched the plan to put essences of Both Shapeshifters AND Skins into human bodies to allow new marriage alliances. But, so long as the 2 sets of Royals don't marry within their own kind, the family feud will be broken. Hence, the Max/Liz relationship is okay.

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

Raoswellrox

I guess really the question is here, are the characters in the present actually portraying separate characters that may have nothing to do with their present characters or are we expected to find links? HMMMMM I am not sure really YET.

RoswellRox you do make an interesting observation why didn't they come across all those cds when they were in that office but I guess we are expected to believe that they were not there b4 but I am not sure.

Starstruck went to reply to your email but it was gone will email you soon.

Ack! I'm at the top of the page again! You guys must think I'm a real page Hog ...er, elephant (don't have a pig at the moment). Remember when we used to be able to delete our posts?

My you are up early! LOL!

I don't think you're a hog at all. I never understood why Liz didn't just wait until CW was gone to listen to the recording she made. I would also like to know whether or not Liz did say somethings about "aliens" on her work phone.

Sorry, gotta run!

I am new to this thread so bare with me as I am a bit behind on all the theories. I have read through the entire #12 thread on this topic. Okay, what does RBI stand for exactly?

As I said I am new, however I always thought that Liz must be different than the other humans because of her ability to have visions like the podsters. So I have to say I absolutely love this thread. I don't hate Tess though.

If I were her I would have probably done the same thing regarding Max and Liz. How would you feel if you grew up with a coldhearted alien (Nasedo--or maybe Harding--I am not sure why most of you believe Harding wasn't Nasedo)and then when you find your "family" including your past-life hubby, he (Max) has found some new love he calls his soulmate?

I think she was just lonely, and desperate to make the pod squad see that she was oringinally very important to their group.

Anyways, just thought I would clear up my feelings on Tess. Now for Max and Liz--What if Max(on his planet) never really loved his bride in the first place? It could have been a marriage set up for a political alliance with Tess's people(whether part of Max's race or not?). Maybe Max was in love with another woman but had no choice but to marry Tess. Maybe after the pods were sent to earth Max's true love found a way to send herself after him on earth in the form of Liz. Or maybe Max just never loved his bride and therefore shouldn't be Destine to be with Tess but whomever he really ends up having a connection with(Liz?) I don't know, these are just rambling thoughts I have been having since Tess was introduced as Max's destiny in season 1.

I wish we could see what Tess's memories of her and Max were.

What does EA stand for? I think that's the Skins, right?

Oh Evid--I personally thought the whole thing about present day Liz and future Max making love was a very romantic idea. They would consumate their bond--in other words become one through marriage(not the public cermony kind but the simple phyical kind). Well, that's just how I view marriage and sex. Yes, physically Liz is a teenager, but if some of the "Liz being a podster theories" are true, then Liz would be a very mature, old soul. I don't think the writers will end up going there though.

However if they did make love, who's to say if Liz got pregnant that we would have a teenage pregnancy storyline on our hands? Afterall, we don't know how long the gestation period would last, do we? Liz could end up going on without Max but having that wonderful memory of him to carry with her, while for years she doesn't appear pregnant at all. Then sometime in her early 20's she would discover the fact that she had been carrying Max's child that whole time. That would create a bond between them that could never be broken(whether the future was changed or not), and then later it could be the thing that would make it possible for Max and Liz to be together again. I'm a hopeless romantic, I guess.

Sorry this was so long.

BTW--I'm not convinced Doty was a skin. I thought he was very nervous. But it is an interesting theory, and quite possible given all the scratching Courtney and CW have done.

SweetJo

You make a got pick about Tess - and I think many of us are sympathetic when you come from that point of view, BUT many think there is more to Tess (and maybe Harding) than meets that eyes, and that Tess has been deceptive in her dealings with Max, et al, making her not trustworthy. Plus, Dreamers - which there are many of here - detess (no pun! ) anyone/thing that comes between Max and Liz!

Many of us have speculated about an arranged marriage on the Pod Squads' planet. Hopefully, we will get more information this season about the social structure on that planet and how the Skins fit in, too. You will fine many of us (me included) have lots of theories, not all of which are consistent with each other. But it is sure fun to speculate and theorize!

BTW - I'm also not convinced that Doty was a Skin, but ... those bus riders were zoombie-like for a reason??? IF Hal Carver shows up in the future, than we may get answers, but if he doesn't, it will be more unanswered questions.

As far as Yvonne's disappearance - I'm not sure WHAT I think of that - the correlation with Liz's kidnapping is possible! It is strange that both women closely connected with the crash disappear; however, Hal and other men with information don't - in fact, Hal is honorably discharged?? I've watched "X-Files" too long - and given the connection to this show, I think anyone could show back up at any time in the future.

IF the Skins had infiltrated the government to the extent that some believe in 1947, that would mean that they had been around for a LOOOOONG time prior to the crash - meaning other aliens might also have been present. (One of my long held theories!)

Zero
"Where's Liz?"

We will be all ready for TEOTW tomorrow night!

Zero
"Where's Liz?"