Welcome to the 14th thread (without TEOTW updates) of the continuing discussion of “Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology.” We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, finding “clues” to Liz’s importance to the alien mythology and other relevant topics! Right now, past available threads are #1 at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/1lizMyth.htm , #9 at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizImportanceToAlienMythologyThread9.htm , #10 at http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/000543.html , #11 is available at: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizImportAlienMythologyThread11.htm and (Thanks Shapeshifter & Qfanny!!) #12’s is at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizsImportanceToTheAlienMythologyThread12.htm. All are welcome to join the discussion mid-stream if you are new, and don’t worry about repeated previous ideas or discussions – they continue to be relevant!

The following is a summary of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the original threads. Our basic thesis is that Liz is an important and essential element to the alien mythology. Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. Following is a summary of what we have discussed.

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From the first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is – maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet (is she the true Vilandra, and Max her one great love?), or a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth, or was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early and was humanized by her human parents (Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz?), or was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow was separated from the group, or could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers. Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents, does she have a connection to the Indians or an alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble – and how this plays into the connection with Max? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her? Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago, a race somehow connected to the podsters’ people? How does the Granolith fit into this? (So, many questions … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the human race and the podsters’ people. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian prophecy? Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being be split between two beings – Max and Liz? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities? (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess). Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny.

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart, then again Liz followed her heart a believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene, and now Maria tells Max to follow his heart, like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? The symbolism throughout the seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather need both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young bride has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? Though many seem to accept that it probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences?), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods? If this is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to the degree of precision, and if so, why use human form? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY ISN’T ANYONE READING HER FILES!!!!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, etc.). She is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan. She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out in Destiny is the former leader of his people. Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” Max, and bring him into “balance”? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many have expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz is capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. Will she be the one able to SEE the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do).

Each of Liz’s visions has been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize all the thoughts here. Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen a (the?) trip through a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source internal to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was it intentional?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect)? Now that we know that time-travel is possible (and will learn more about that in the next episode), has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library) and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence – we think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful!

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! hummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole, the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). Could it be that the four squares (podsquad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? The numbers 14 and 104 seem to pop up often – why? Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the podsquad? Or are they just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (in Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

Many have wondered if the "evil" aliens – Skins - might also be from the podsquad's planet, just part of a civil war - therefore, having similar characteristics and powers to Harding's type of alien. The Skins seem to have similar powers – but no shapeshifting has been seen, yet, by them. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? We now know there were other pods planted at the same time, but where and what happened to them? Could there be more than one set of podsters that will show up later? Clones? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him – why? And are they another race of aliens (a third race of alieans), or one of the two “know” aliens? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the chosen human to assist in their survival.

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the podsquad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2??

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the podsquad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could answer for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection their?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands.

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across:
1911 - James Atherton born in TN
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debri from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
10/25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but probably were in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
10/25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to sum up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, and that together Max and Liz make an incredible force to be reckoned with!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO Spoilers, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired.

Zero

Thank you.
V

Four - represents the wholeness of the Earth - what can be touched or felt.
The totality of all created things as well as the totality of all that
perishes. As someone mentioned before - it is linked to the elements of
earth, air, fire and water. Also linked to the four points of the compass.
Here is the quote that I found really important "To sum it up, four may be
seen as the sign of POTENTIALITY awaiting the manifestation which occurs
with the number FIVE"

Five - "is the sum number of the centre, of harmony, of BALANCE" It is the
symbol of the universe. It is the symbol of completion. It is the symbol of
the MARRIAGE between HEAVEN and EARTH - the marriage of yin and yang. It is
the symbol of the conjunction of the male with the female.
And both Aztec and Greek traditions say there have been "five ages of man" -
and yes - lots of people have interpreted their writings on the "five ages"
to imply ancient alien colonization.

NINE - obviously this contains the numbers five and four. It is the number
of "cosmic solidarity and redemption". "It heralds both and end and a fresh
beginning, that is to say the removal to a new plane. The notion of
germination and rebirth is connected with the number nine. "It gives
expression to the end of a cycle, the completion of a journey, the tying of
a knot"

I think that there is a ton of symbolism here - with four representing the
podsters and five representing the podsters PLUS Liz.
Five is a much stronger number - it implies immortality, completion, balance
and perfection. It also implies the "Marriage" of heaven and earth - of
yin and yang. Interesting also to note is that Venus is a twin (and is
associated with horses).
Max (representing the heavens) and Liz (earth) may be "twin souls" - and
their union creates the balance and wholeness necessary to bring peace to
the universe.

Quotes on symbolisim are from "The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols" by Jean Chevalier and Alain Gheerbrant

I posted this late last night right ebfore we "disappeared" - so I am going to repost it here - forgive the repeat.

When I watched EOTW I was (of course) looking for clues and the one thing that stuck out to me was the black velvet painting of the ship that was between Max and Maria when they talked in the Crashdown. (Can anyone post a picture of that scene???)
Anyway - I looked it up and look and see what I found:
"The old Scandananavian legend of the ghost-ship, on which Wagner based his "The Flying Dutchman", symbolizes the quest for fidelity in love, and the shipwreck of the ideal - exposed as nothing more than a phantom. In desperation, the Dutchman wanders the seas, hoping to meet the woman who will be eternally faithful. Senta, for her part, emotionally absorbed by the same ideal, swears she will be true to the Dutchman until death. However, in doing so - she betrays her finace Birk and suffers the same damnation as the Dutchman she is trying to save. THe Dutchman puts out to sea - but his vesel founders, while Senta leaps from the rocks and is drowned.However, THE PAIR ARE SEEN RISING FROM THE NOW-CALMED WATERS, TRANSFIGURED AND REDEEMED BY THEIR SACRIFICE.
Salvation is no impossibly idealistic dream - but exists in the courageous acceptance of reality".

Coincidence??? I think not.
Also works well with a scenario that places Tess as Vilandra (betraying the Dutchman - causing him to lose faith in the purity of love) and Liz as Senta (sworn to fidelity to him - but apparently "betraying him"). In the end - Senta's true fidelity is revealed and the two are transfigured and redemed.

Starbox, great research on that painting which reminds me that SENTA was engaged to someone else??????hmmmmmm??????

Okay a few things
SERENA-another S names to add to my collection Stephens, Summers, Smith, Samuels, Shellow,Shaunessey, Selegman all HELPERS??? Yes I think so. Of course if Sorenson turns out evil well there goes that theory.

When FM and PL are spying on PM and Tess, FM says "WELL WE HAVE TO PLAY EVERY CARD WE HAVE" That mention of CARD GAME again made me think of ITTW and that Ace being changed to the 2 of DIAMONDS. It has to mean something right! And then the Diamond Back beer in Summer of 47 well its important right?

And what is Courtneys last name have we been told yet? In Surprise she says, NO ONE IS AFTER TESS!!! And that Dolly Parton remark reminded me how when Dolly Parton first became famous everyone thought she looked FAKE. Is that the hint? Not sure.

I STILL think something is also up with KYLE ever since he came off that bus and him finding buddha didnt Nasedo have a buddha?
"I JUST WANT YOU TO KNOW LIZ I WON'T LET ANYTHING COME BETWEEN US" "NOTHING"

Jason Katims ROCKS-he should write all the episodes himself--and Shiri was AMAZING in this eppy I thought.

Anyway, just thought I'd thank Zero for restarting this thread! AS always.. I look forward to some great insights!

Now back to shapeshifting

Melodious

[b]GracKel: I just about choked when I saw your question because for some odd reason I know the answer.(I guess I love those romance novels) The Cat O Nine Tails is a whip. Now a days it is used as a
SEX TOY. You know black leather and all. Here is a brief definition.

Cat-o’-nine-tails: A whip, first with three, then with six, and lastly with nine lashes, used for punishing offenders, and briefly called a cat. It was once used in the British army and navy.
So called because it leaves marks like the scratches of a cat.

Now GraceKel what crazy thoughts are going on in that head of yours? Please let your other crazy half know,"SOON".

Evid

In the PILOT isn't that a huge butterfly hanging over Liz's mirror, and doesn't the butterfly represent CHANGE?

Starbox, again let me tell you how much I enjoyed all that info on your last two posts.
And VENUS associated with HORSES interesting.

Oh one more thing in blood bros eppy Liz says why don't you stay for dinner we have BLUE MOON BURGER, SATURN RINGS, and MERCURY MILK SHAKE for 3.99. Then I was thinking how Mr HAL CARVER was morphing down those milkshakes....

Starbox, I'm impressed, you're very observant. I love that number analysis.

Sorry I can't get the pic to show.

In the PILOT isn't that a huge butterfly hanging over Liz's mirror, and doesn't the butterfly represent CHANGE?

******************************************
Okay - I am a little obsessive now that I got my book on archetypal images/symbols.
Here is what I found on the butterfly:
Apart from the symbol of metamorpasis and change - a butterfly also symbolises the warrior's soul.
And get this "In Aztec carving, the butterfly became an alternative for the hand as the emblem for the number FIVE".

If I stop posting - you'll know my husband had me committed....... :-)

Insights about Liz....maybe when the momogram came down and said I have sent you your young bride it is really Liz. In TeotW Max says the four of them M/Mi/I/T made a unit and without Tess they were weakened. So maybe everyone misinterpreted the Tess book and the book was to show how their powers are best used....when they are together and not necessarily that Tess is Max's destiny. That might work if Nasedo is the Evil shape shifter and found/used Tess to infiltrate the good pods without Tess realizing it. He told her what he wanted her to think.

I rewatched Blind Date the other night and I again have wondered who the Alien is that burned their picture. (that was blind date wasn't it) Why, if they supported the podsters would they burn the pic?/? No answers yet.

I have lots of thoughts and little time. So I'll check back later to see more thoughts. Your research is great! Can't wait to read more tonight.

Thank you Zero for starting the new thread.

Ack! Qfanny, Liz does have antennaes in that pic. The lighting people need to be more careful about where the overhead lights are positioned.

Starbox - I loved your Flying Dutchman analogy. And this number thing has got to mean something.

Evid & shapeshifter - After I found out what the song meant I was thinking the same thing. Max drowning his sorrows in Tequila (Hey,Tequila, where are you? Oops,sorry, wrong thread. I'll have to tell her about that theory. She'd like it. )

One of these days I am actually going to learn my lesson and take better notes. Now I can't remember what else I was going to say. ugh.

Oh, GraceKeland anyone else who can help, it looks like I am going to definitely need a new VCR. Which kind do you have that has an actual slo-mo button? Sorry that was so OT.

Well, since I can't remember what my theory was... how about some visuals instead.
Okay, start playing "I Shall Believe" right about now (or soon depending on your modem. This is a long animation. So it will take a while to load... but so well worth it. )

Now, THAT is beautiful. I could watch it over and over again. Okay, I already did.
Pics for animation courtesy of the DDD, the Crashdown, Vidiot, and BenFelicyOnline.

OK, so Max and Liz really do love each other. We knew this, but it's sweet to see. Tess is really a genuine podster. A useful one. And by the way, though she may "not be from around here", she does have a human side. Frustration. Exasperation. Anger. Not just a cardboard cut-out. I've been saying that the poor gal seems to have gotten the short end of the stick in this deal. It's interesting to see that she realizes it too.

And, at one point, it looks like Tess is ready to chuck the whole Destiny thing. I believe that she's been "saving herself" for the guy she remembers as her husband, who loves her. But, hey, if he wants nothing to do with her, well then, screw him! Or more to the point, someone else, of Tess's own choosing; not the one she is planned for by someone else. (Kyle just happened to be in range; there's no special spark there. Yet.)

And likewise, we see that Liz is not ready to make love with any Max. She's also the only one who seems to be thinking clearly in other areas. Who comes up with the plans to seperate her and Max? For each and every one, Liz is in charge. Max can't do it without her; he can't even plan something; he just presses Liz to "do something". (What a slug!) Can anyone doubt that Liz is the brains in this couple? That Max needs her, not just heart and soul, but her wonderful mind? And she loves him. If anyone didn't like Liz before, they've got to now!

Michael and Courtney: Definitely a spark there. I'm beginning to think that Courtney is a Good Guy, or at least a neutral. Remember that our podsters originally were not "in on" the whole Destiny plan. Courtney may not be connected with the Skins' operations. She may fall in with the podsters.

Questions answered. Answers questioned. Mush by the shovelfull. Something familiar, something peculiar. Something for everyone: Roswell tonight!
(Words & music from A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Podchamber, starring Zero Hersel')

Beautiful video Clip Redhawk :-) - almost makes me want to cry (again).

RedHawk I have a PANASONIC VCR if that helps just make sure you buy one with the all important slo-mo feature---necessary equipment for us RBI's.

I am not sure if our MAX is a SKIN or not but I STILL think RICHARD DOTY was doing a great imitation of a skin in SUMMER OF 47 he actually scratches at least FOUR times in this episode alone.

But now I am wondering cuz here is another one-----
Remember in CRAZY Liz bought BUBBLE BATH to thats suppose to make her SKIN SOFT YIKES!!!!
I am telling you these writers love toying with my little brain!!!!! BUT NOW LIZ IS SUPPOSE TO GLOW--so I am just more confused.

Hey did anyone think there was any significance to DIXIE saying "oh I am late for my hair apt, these curls don't get there by MAGIC ya know" Any hidden meaning there?

Thanks Shapeshifter and Qfanny for all your archiving work!!

Welcome to the newbies!!

Below is a copy of my thoughts on TEOTW and on "Sliding Doors" from Thread #13 -

Remember when we were talking about "Run, Lola, Run" - and I said that the previews involving Future Max made me think about "Sliding Doors"? Well, I just rewatched "Sliding Doors" - and I really like the premise, that regardless of the path your life takes (the movie follows the same woman through two different life scenerios that differ based solely on whether she makes the subway or not), you will find your true love - it directly applies to what I believe is to begin in TEOTW and ultimately will be resolved in a future episode (at least I hope so - it better)! Plus, the closing song on the credits is Dido's "Thank You" song!

Okay - I'm finally ready to write my thoughts about TEOTW! I've rewatched it a number of times already - it is such a wonderfully done episode, but soooooooo sad with only a slight glimmer of hope at the end! I keep thinking about he movie "Sliding Doors" and that tonight we saw the end of the scenario where she makes the train, now we get to see what happens when she misses the train (a harder journey, but ultimately, the happier ending!) - rent the movie if you don't understand ).
The ending of this episode did me in. The look PM gives Tess - (Scream) - and the "last" dance between Liz and FM - so intense, but carefree at the same time. How many of you thought the shooting star in the sky that Liz gazed into was FM's spirit leaving??
Okay - regardless of Liz's origins, we now know how important she is to the future of the aliens. The future does NOT turn out well, and she (with her future friend Serena - she's not a witch is she? ) obviously comes up with the plan to reverse the clock, and give Earth and humanity another chance, even if it ultimately means that she has to give up the love of her life!!
I took notes on this episode (though I probably have scenes memorized by now) - so Behr with me! The chemistry between Liz and Max and Liz and FM is SOOSOOOO incredible. I KNOW there is NO way TPTB will keep them apart permanently - it would be commercial suicide! (And since we all know that is their primary driving factor ...) Max and Tess just don't have it chemistry-wise. I know they are trying to make she character sympathetic, but .... (scream) - Maybe it is the bleached blond hair, but ... the whole Tess character was summed up when she tells Liz "she is not into bonding!" Yuck! (Okay - that is not why we are here - sorry - I told you to Behr with me ...)
Liz was forced by FM to come up with a plan - and after numerous attempts, finally comes up with one that works. This must have been torture (absolute and complete) for Liz! It makes me nauseous to just think about what she did. I remember stumbling on a former "friend" making out with another girl (long ago and far away), and to this day it makes me nauseous (yes, I did throw up at the time) - so that scene was painful to watch - even knowing she was faking it for a selfless purpose! Liz's character is amazing - to be able to pull this off!!
I loved how the humor was intertwined - help with the pain - and this just went further to connect Liz and Max (even if it was with FM)!
We now know that the Granolith - though altered to be used as a time travel machine - is very powerful and was NOT meant originally for time travel. SOOO - we still don't know it's purpose. I guess this leaves it open for the writers in the future. I wonder if Serena - another SMART women and future friend of Liz's - will show up during the season - or if she is a much future friend? I thought it was interesting that FM arrives with a flash of lightening - remember the lightening from Into the Woods?
FM's gray hair lets up know that the aliens age like humans, and (as someone already pointed out) we know they can have sex and not explode! I thought it was weird that FM has scars? I thought they could heal these!!
The conflict on Earth comes to a head in 14 years, but we don't know what occurs in the meantime - so many questions.
I DO NOT understand WHY FM could not let Liz in on more about the Future?? If she knew a couple of details, she could make a huge difference! Why waste that trip back in time without using it to tip the balance into your sides' favor! It looked like the EA had NOT found the Granolith yet. I tend to think the two shooters in the Pilot were NOT a FM and FMichael - even though that is a great theory - based on how Max described the use of the Granolith for time travel.
I now believe Tess is an original podster - based on the need for them to work as a unit due to their special gifts - BUT ... It is still a huge mystery to me why the podsters would have been sent to Earth with so little (or no) instructions on their mission and powers! It just doesn't make sense to me!! Seems inept from a planning for success point of view. And Liz - she definitely fits in there somehow - too many clues!!! Plus, with the little bit of information she does have, she in now invaluable to the podsters.
And again FM states "It's YOU I Trust! It's YOU I have Faith in!" This is an innate feeling that Max has for Liz and regardless of what he saw (her with Kyle) - it will eat at him until he finds out WHY she did that - he (once rationality returns) has to know that Liz sleeping with Kyle is TOTALLY out of character for her! Notice she would NOT let him touch her - for fear he would "SEE" something??? It is only a matter of time!
The entire eloping to Las Vegas seems so out of character for someone interested in studying Bio-Chem at Harvard. Plus, I have never like the Romeo and Juliet analogy since it is a Tragedy! So - like I said before with the "Sliding Doors" analogy - that path did not work, it is time to try another, and ultimately, it will work out. I like to think more along the lines of "Pride and Prejudice" - two people kept away from each other due to misunderstandings who ultimately find out there are perfectly matched!
I loved the entire confrontation about Liz not being ready to sleep with Max, etc. She is too young for this, and realizes it - but did in scenario 1 - now she has a chance to do it again - it will mean that much more when they do finally get together!! But I'm stating outright - if Max sleeps with Tess, I will STOP watching the show (and puck first)! If that is where the writers or storyline is headed, they will lose me FAST!!
I loved the scene between PM and Maria - she can sense his connection, and Maria will know something is wrong when she gets wind of what happened!! Max and Liz are soulmates, but Liz and Maria are "sisters" in the best sense of the word! I also laughed at the line about "America knows" Michael is not a great BF! (I realize this has nothing to do with Liz's connection to the alien mythology, but ...)
Interesting how painful it was for FM to watch the Kyle/Liz deception. I wondered if he had a flash of a new memory of seeing them in bed together?? It seemed like he did!
Interesting that Kyle did NOT see flashes (just dreams about Max naked )! Definitely a reason why Liz does - why??? I actually thought the exchange between Kyle and Liz was cute, and he obviously still has deep feelings for her. Thought it was interesting that they never touched each other, much less kiss. Liz will remain faithful regardless!
The ending did leave me with a glimmer of hope - FM's words about "We create our own destiny!" And the words of the song that played is completely relevant! "Not everything is going to be the way it ought to be ... won't give up on me ... you hold the key!" Will Max give up on Liz? I don't think so .... because we ALL KNOW SHE IS THE KEY!!!
Going - sorry soo long! Keep the Faith!!
Zero / (Okay - that's how I feel right now ...)

I swear this message board is against me!! I tried getting in here Tuesday when I really needed a group hug but all I got were ad banners, then yesterday I tried posting and it wouldn't go through. Argghh!!! Anyway, I'm glad i'm finally on here. I LOVED TEOTW! I've never had an hour of TV effect me like that! After it was over I called my mom (I've now hooked her on the show) and neither of us could speak because we were crying SOOO hard!

Zero- LOL about Serena especially since Kyle told Tess no bewitched stuff in the house.

Qfanny- OMG I see the antennas!!

Starbox- I'm so obsessed that I take notes and one of the things I had down was what's the deal with the paint on velvet ship picture. Well, here you are talking about the same thing. I think it's Shapeshifters Law that if 2 people see something it must be so. Thank you for the flying Dutchman explanation, it sure does fit. I was also thinking of the Dido song- My Lovers Gone, with the words- no earthly ships will ever bring him home again. It seamed to fit the situation.

OK now I'm ready to share my observations:

The year future Max comes from is 2014... there's that # 14 again!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOW, I called the florist shop today to confirm this one!! red roses mean LOVE and white roses mean PEACE. Well, what does PM do? He throws Liz a boquet of red roses that he changes to white - changing LOVE to PEACE. What does Liz do? She changes that one night of LOVE altering the future bringing PEACE! I'm sure they did this on purpose!!!

I'm finding a Run LOla Run parellel. It took Lola 3 times to get the desired outcome. It took Liz 3 tries to get the outcome FM wanted 1) has Tess sitting outside of the Crashdown 2) speach to Max in his room 3) faking sex with Buddah boy.

What caused FM and FL to fall down in the granolith chamber- abomb, an earthquake?

The bottom of the granolith glows a blue/white and if you notice the reflection of this in the ceiling pannels looks like a bluish sun. Liz has a blue glowing thing (candle holder?) on her balcony which looks like a blue glowy sun. It just struck me how much they resemble eachother.

Max and Liz always see clouds now as they're seeing themselves in their flashes. When FM is inside the granolith we see the same type clouds.

About Madam Vivians - Maria says she's a profit. The name Vivian starts with a V (continuing the reference to the V constellation). Madam Vivians name is in blue the palm and know your future are in red. There are 4 white lines coming out of both sides of the palm for a total of 8 lines. This makes me podsters 4 we know, 4 we don't. I'd like to see Liz go back to her now and have the reading done over.

When FM first appears at Liz's bedroom window he's accompanied by lightening and wind. All I could think of was ITTW when the symbol was left ther it was the same type of lightening. Had necedo used the granolith to time travel and leave the symbol?

I'd like to see this Hardware store in town. We hear about it a couple times, Liz and Maria say the new kid at school works at the Hardware store and FM tells us that Mr Delgato at the Hardware store taught him his song.

The picture on Liz's dresser that Max changed in BD is back to it's original state.

I don't think Tess wants Max any more than he wants her. She says " I'm sick of Max Evans. I never asked to be his mate." This makes me think theirs must have been an arranged marriage.

When Tess is sitting outside the Crashdown the camera starts from the top of the sign and lands on her, but we only see the Crash part of Crashdown. I take this to mean Tess is trouble.

Maria said Courtney had surveilance picture of Michael in her locker with his face circled. Hmmmm who else do we know that had surveilance pictures...Tess and hers concentrated on Max. Does that mean that someone out ther has pictures of Isabel, Grant maybe?

I loved the way they chose Gomez as the concert that max asked liz to as this was the group that sang their first kiss song!

Hey GraceKel- did you notice when Maria and Max are talking in the Crashdown the camera is at ceiling level and we see the paddles of the ceiling fan turning slowly. All I could think of was the windmill statue in max's room and the windmill painting in Liz's room.

When Kyle opens the door when liz say I need your help we see the wood trim on the door but only a portion of it and that portion forms a V.

Just an observation- Michael eats an enormous amount of cereal. LOL

Awhile back there was a discussion as to weather Liz had actually died when max healed her. Well, Kyle answered that for me when he said - we have something in common, you and i are the only 2 people I know that have DIED and been brought back by an alien.

There's a dragon on Liz's window. I don't remember seeing this before. What significance can that have? There's the year of the dragon, Iwas born in that year. Other than that I can't think of anything.

Liz says to FM there will never be another you. What if the other podsters are duplicates, twins- then there will be another him.

I thought it was interesting that Liz looked up to the sky when FM left, almost instinctively to see the shooting star, which I agree with Zero was FM's spirit leaving.

My favorite lines were:

"There you are Max the Saint walking around with a condom in his back pocket"
and
"can you put a shirt on please"

I want to thank Jasin Katims for this beautiful bitter sweet episode! I also have no doubts that Max and Liz will get back together. All it will take is one kiss and Max will be able to SEE that the whole Kyle thing was a sham!!!

I only had time to type this in tonight and not read any new posts since last night so I appologize in advance if i repeated anyones thoughts.

Starstruck

I was beginning to think no one was ever going to answer my questions about the numbers.

I think the numbers 4 and 5 are very important to the analysis of the show. Clues about the significance of 4 and 5 are thrown at us from the writers all the time.

VENUS and HORSES-Very interesting

Even more shocking-BUTTERFLY represents FIVE as well as CHANGE! WOW!

Here are the 2 sets of important 5 elements I know of:
EARTH, AIR, WIND, FIRE, AND SPIRIT(or also LOVE I think).
NORTH, SOUTH, EAST, WEST, AND CENTER(or CORE).

Wow Max could represent THE HEAVENS, and Liz THE EARTH. That is way deeper than just soulmates, as I have always viewed them.

Just a thought about NINE- What if-- THE ROYAL 4 + LIZ = FIVE + THE NEW 4 PODSTERS = 9--ON PURPOSE?

SweetJo

As for the symbol of the DRAGON that you mentioned. I looked it up in my handy-dandy book (that I originally felt bad paying 20.00 for since it is a paperback - but now am really glad I indulged) I found something veeeerry interesting:

"basically - dragons are associated as strict guardians or as symbols of evil."
Now - I am going with the guardian interpretation which works really well with my theory about preserving Liz's virginity until the time is right for her "powers" to be revealed.
Here is more about dragons:
They are assocaited with LIGHTING and CLOUDS - they embody both YIN and YANG. (I am not making this up). In Celtic legend it "describes the struggle between the red dragon and the white dragon. In the end, both dragons, made drunk by mead, were buried in the centre of the island in a stone coffin. So long as they remain buried, the island will suffer no invasion. The coffined dragons are symbols of HIDDEN and CHAINED powers, the TWO FACES of a VEILED being. The burial together of both dragons signifies that their FATES have become INTERFUSED. Anger may have been calmed, but the DRAGONS could RISE TOGETHER. They remain a threat, a potential force ready to launch itself at any new invader."

Once again - the images of Max and Liz as "twin souls" or "yin and yang" and even more so - the image of "hidden" or "latent" power - the potential for power. This is repeated over, and over again when you look up the symbolism/mythology of Max and Liz.

The three paths there seem intriguing in view of Run, Lola, Run.

Also, if Run, Lola, Run is an important clue, how about the Sigourney Weaver costume Liz wore to the crash festival in the Pilot? Isn't that from Alien Resurrection? Although I may have missed a few of these threads, I don't remember this being discussed....

StarBox, thanks for posting your conviction that Grandma Claudia's name is important. [thread 13, about p4] I think so too. (As GraceKel mentioned, this was posted before, but it was long ago and on a different thread. With one exception, I couldn't tell whether anyone thought it was significant. So I was very glad to see how excited you were about it.) By shapeshifter's axiom, the more of us independently reach some interpretation, the more likely that is the intended one.

As far as I know, the first mention that Claudia = lame was posted by Leneba on a Science Fiction thread. I posted one possible way it might tie in -- this is now on the Maxcedo site. http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/mommo.htm

StarBox, thanks for posting your conviction that Grandma Claudia's name is important. [thread 13, about p4] I think so too. (As GraceKel mentioned, this was posted before, but it was long ago and on a different thread. And I could count on one finger the readers who seemed to think it was significant. So I was very glad to see how excited you were about it. By shapeshifter's axiom, the more of us independently reach some interpretation, the more likely that is the writers' intent.

As far as I know, the first mention that Claudia = lame was posted by Leneba on a Science Fiction thread. I posted one possible way it might tie in -- this is now on the Maxcedo site. http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/mommo.htm [/B]

Nemo - Thanks for the encouraging words :-) - although I am new to posting on ff - I have been a huge closet Roswell addict/Liz mytholgist since day 1! It is nice to know I am not the only one out there :-)
I loved the link - what great theories :-)

I looked up "lameness" and found somethings that I think directly relate:

"Rulers of fire and blacksmiths in virtually all mythologies will be lame if they are no one-legged. Loss of bodily wholeness is generally regarded as THE PRICE THEY HAD TO PAY FOR SUPRA-HUMAN KNOWLEDGE - and the power it confers on them"
"The loss of bodily wholeness is the price of knowledge and power and a reminder too of the punishment which threatens excess"

Seems like lameness may be a "clue" that links the humans that have come into contact with/helped one of the shapeshifters. In exchange for the knowledge (and possibly even power) they gain - they are also left with a limp. Lameness also implies a loss of "balance" - so perhaps aiding the shapeshifters/learning some of their "secrets" creates an "imbalance" in their physical bodies (possibly just temporarily). Did RiverDog limp before the woods episode? I dont remember that he did. If not it could have been an indication that he had been in RECENT contact with a shapeshifter. GC's name could be an indication of the pivitol role she played in the birth of Liz.

All of these symbols relate back to archetypes. I believe that whether the writers intentionally include them or not - the fact that they link to ancient mythologies and symbolisim is valid. And, I have a feeling that the symbolisim IS intentional - especially when it is repeated over and over again. I definately think the limp is significant - since we have seen many characters with the same characteristic.

About the Run Lola Run clue: I am confused about which "3" are the "3" versions, or are there various sets of "3?" After all, CW said it was the story of her life, and then Liz said "me too." So that could be 2 separate sets or the same set. If they are parts of the same set, then the life on Twilo when the essences were in their alien bodies would be the first version; the events in Season 1 and Season 2 until EOTW would be the second; and in EOTW we would see the 3rd, "correct" version. But, I see the shooting in the Pilot ep with the "We've got to get rid of her" as yet another version, though I differ here with Qfanny on the shooters being Max and Michael--simply because I can't see Max ever being involved in such a plot.

One more observance: we have 3 female V names now: Vilandra, Valerie (Whittaker), and Vivian (which comes from the root word meaning "life.")

I'm back... I'm tired so I won't be posting any thoughts tonight... since I can't seem to form any coherent thoughts at this point... However, I did want to say that I find it odd that the thread was deleted. Like someone else said, maybe we are getting close to figuring everything out after all. Consequently, the thread was purposely deleted. Hmmm... thread go bye bye by accident??? I think not.

I'm just teasing. =)

To answer the person that asked the identity question. I am a 24 year old Web Applications Developer and I am newly married.

REDHAWK- The video clip is beautiful. I almost ed again when I saw that on your post. But I also got a huge smile on my face How do you make the video clips?

In the 13th Thread, someone said they would hate it if Liz was a hybrid. They thought it wouldn't be as romantic because Max and Liz would not be starcrossed lovers anymore.

I am still not sold on the theory that Liz is a hybrid either. However, since it seems possible this is what I think about it:

Well, just because they wouldn't be a human and an alien anymore doesn't mean they aren't star crossed lovers.
I had always thought that if Liz was like the podsters, then Max and Liz could have originally been in love on their planet but forbidden to be together. Hence, the young bride, "TESS", not ever being someone Max really loved. On their planet Max could have been forced to marry someone of status for political reasons, TESS. Meanwhile Max loved another. Obviously someone considered simple by the rest of the royals' standards. Someone too simple to be a great Queen in their eyes, this being Liz.

However, turns out Liz isn't simple, she is powerful. After she realizes that they sent the royal four to earth and that she is powerful enough to help protect them, she finds someone to engineer a hybrid of herself to send to earth. She literally follows her true love beyond death. (Kinda like Dracula)
This would also fit the fact that Liz always comes up with great plans to help protect the podsters.

See, it could still easily be a story of two lovers doomed to be apart but still struggling to be together. AND STILL MANAGING TO BE TOGETHER!

Just thought I would present my take. WHAT DO YA THINK?

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

A/S/L-20/female/Southwestern Ohio

In fact, I'm very close to Hangar 18 at Wright Patterson Air Force Base-- where in real life the ROSWELL crash debris and alien bodies were supposedly taken for further study.

Hey, maybe the writers will make it so that the other four podsters were taken to WPAFB in Hangar 18. That would be cool! Well, I guess just for me and really not for anyone else. It would be really cool if they decided to film on location!

I am also a college senior. Major:Psychology
Plans: Graduate school in Film Production

SweetJo

This thread caught my eye because I agree with the name: there is something special about Liz that makes her as integral to the story as M/I/M. (The way the 1st 4 episodes of Season 2lagged without her screen presence also supports that fact.) Max’s recognition of her in kindergarten and steadfastness since is pretty unique. And while I also toyed with trying to make her alien, I really think she is human, but changed in some way as has been suggested.
Perhaps she received some alien changes or super-enhanced human abilities as a result of the reverse connection with Max or the healing connection. I’m not sure this has been mentioned before, but it seems that Liz has an extra sense when Max is near. In TL&V when she was eating dinner with Harding & Tess, Max runs up to the others outside the window, and she looks around as if she senses him close by. Also, in the EOTW when she is laughing with Kyle in the bedroom, she suddenly looks to the window as if knowing Max has arrived. The only other
character that I have noticed with this ability is Tess: when Max comes up behind her at her locker in M to the M and in AN when he comes up to her on the park bench, she recognizes that he is there before she looks at him. (That is the ONLY thing Liz and Tess have in common; in every other characteristic there is no comparison.) There could be other instances, but these are the only ones that come to mind. Although Liz didn’t recognize Max in kindergarten, since the reverse connection she has displayed an other-worldly awareness and loyalty to him–which is more than can be said for Tess with her underhanded scheming in the first season.

Another thing: I was glad that Jason Katims brought out into the open the fact that Liz is the only human receiving flashes. In the EOTW when Max reaches out and kisses her, we hear an electrical zip–I haven’t heard that before. And Max says I felt that one, I know you must have. He didn’t seem to realize that Liz was lying about not feeling any flashes when he touched her at the end of S&B. Yet now he feels it, too. The connection growing stronger?

This is not related to the importance of Liz, but I found it interesting: when Max is telling Liz about their wedding, he mentions the friends they called: Maria, Michael, Isabel, & Alex. Why that order? Why not lump the 2 humans together and the 2 aliens, unless there is some connection between them 2 years in the future.

I’m really enjoying all the discussion. Every time one of you brings up a scenario that supports Liz and Max being together, I practically stand up and cheer. There’s no question--they will be together. It’s their destiny!

Chica

DeeDee

I was wondering why Liz choose to have T*** "APPEAR" to read Steinbeck? (Tequila said, on the Cherishing Thread, that she checked to see if T*** had the book upside- down) Now I'm a huge John Steinbeck fan and I kept running all his novels through my mind and this is the one that best fits Roswell.

The Moon is Down

Amazon.com Synopsis:
Steinbeck helps us to understand the war and the people involved in it. A sense of togetherness is exemplified in the people, and the theme of working together is expressed in their attitudes, as they fight to save one anothers lives. What was happening to them was unfair and immoral, however they stuck through it by understanding that a group is so much better than an individual, and caring for others helps make them and you a stronger person.

Do you think Liz was trying to give T*** a hint? Jason Katims is truly amazing with these clues. I thought he was only hinting at the Good and Evil symbolism that Steinbeck is famous for, but once I read this
Synopsis I had to wonder, did he know we would research and had this book in mind? Jason Behr has said that they can never keep up with Jason Katims mind, because he never stops thinking. I think JB is right. Keep them coming JK we love this game, Don't we fellow agents?

Evid

Not only is there the #1 & 4, but 2, too!!
Excellent observations Starstruck!!

Zero

Also, from Amazon, some other similarities:
"Ethan Allen Hawley is a Harvard educated descendent of New England shipping captains. In years past, his family was one of the most important in town. But now times have changed & after his father lost most of the family fortune & Ethan himself lost the family store, he is reduced to being a grocery clerk in the employ of an immigrant, Mr. Marullo.

Ethan's wife, Mary, and his two children, Ellen and Allen, push him to better the family's lot. Mary, for instance, wants him to invest the $6000 she inherited upon her brother's death.

The town vixen, Margie Young-Hunt, provides a powerful pull to kick over the traces & run a bit wild. She sends a representative from a food wholesaler to Ethan & he is offered a kickback if he'll buy from them.

Meanwhile, Danny Taylor, his childhood friend & now the town drunk, holds a piece of property that developers are desparate to get ahold of for their planned airport. The local banker approaches Ethan for help in getting the property away from Danny.

In short order Ethan is narcing on neighbors, betraying Danny, taking bribes & planning to rob the bank."

What about the 5 (human) senses: taste, touch, sight, smell and hearing?

Zero

I was wondering why Liz choose to have T*** "APPEAR" to read Steinbeck? (Tequila said, on the Cherishing Thread, that she checked to see if T*** had the book upside- down) Now I'm a huge John Steinbeck fan and I kept running all his novels through my mind and this is the one that best fits Roswell.

The Moon is Down

Amazon.com Synopsis:
Steinbeck helps us to understand the war and the people involved in it. A sense of togetherness is exemplified in the people, and the theme of working together is expressed in their attitudes, as they fight to save one anothers lives. What was happening to them was unfair and immoral, however they stuck through it by understanding that a group is so much better than an individual, and caring for others helps make them and you a stronger person.

Do you think Liz was trying to give T*** a hint? Jason Katims is truly amazing with these clues. I thought he was only hinting at the Good and Evil symbolism that Steinbeck is famous for, but once I read this
Synopsis I had to wonder, did he know we would research and had this book in mind? Jason Behr has said that they can never keep up with Jason Katims mind, because he never stops thinking. I think JB is right. Keep them coming JK we love this game, Don't we fellow agents?

Evid

Now I'm intriqued - can someone identify the book that Tess was reading??

Great clue Evid!!

Also - WELCOME TO ALL NEWBIES !!

Zero (I'm back to my grinning ways!)

There are 5 elements to many things.
Does anyone know about Native American religious beliefs?

I bet we would find many 5 element combinations in that too. And I am sure that most 5 element combinations almost always represents the all important balance.

SweetJo

This episode is driving me crazy! Woke up out of a dead sleep at 3 AM, & watched that part of EOTW over and over!... now where is that thread dealing with Roswell obsession?!

I dont think Jason Katims puts anything in his episodes by accident - and I have a feeling that the fact that we analyze the heck out of them probably just encourages him :-) :-)

As for the number five - another interesting thing is that EVEN numbers (4) are "stationary" numbers - they are like inert elements - complete in themselves. Odd numbers (5) imply action.
It could be that the (4) podsters need the "fifth element" of Liz (Venus) to be the spark that creates the action.

One thing I noticed in EOTW is that Liz seemed to have adopted a leadership role after she and Max slept together. FM says it was her idea to elope. It was FL that insisted that Max travel back in time. FM seemeed to look to Liz to make decisions.

Good catch on the electrical "spark" sound when they touched - I need to rewatch EOTW today. This also fits in with my current "pet" theory that Liz had to be kept from having sex to keep her "dormant" powers at bay. If you look back at Sexual Healing - there was a very clear "change" going on - Liz started glowing, got a glowing hickey, got a weird rash, ran a fever - plus she felt compleeled by a force outside of herself to have sex. In the end - after they found the communicator - the intense drive to "mate" was gone.
What if this is somehow connected to moon or planetary cycles? If I had last seasons episodes on tape I would rewatch them right now :-( <sigh>
What if Liz's "dormant essence or powers" start to "wake up" when you see certian planetary alignments? Hence the electrical spark in CW's office - the connection is growing stronger with the alignment. This would also explain why Max would be so persisitent about getting back together with Liz on THAT night (if he was being guided by the same "force") and why our rational, logical Liz - who wasnt even ready to get back together with Max at all would have skipped the concert all together for some unplanned "mating". It could be that this alignment has to be in place for Liz's "essence" to "wake up" - which would explain why she stopped glowing after SH.
Also - a thought - maybe the "guardian/s" have been trying to keep them physically apart during these "times of aligment". After Tic-Tac saw them in the desert - maybe he realized that things were escalating beyond their control. It could be that Liz's abduction (which has always seemed really unmotivated to me) was for this reason - and the "guardian/s" could have arranged sending Liz off to Florida for the summer to keep her physically apart from Max. EOTW could have easily been the first time since SH that they would have had the opportunity to "mate" at the "right" (or wrong depending on how you look at it) time.

Fallen Angel - I think you have some good points about the mom-o-gram. It seemed to give VERY little information while setting off a signal to alert the enemy to their location (although why the enemy wouldnt GUESS the site of the crash......) Would have been nice for Mom to mention the granolith, or something more constructive than her new age mumbo-jumbo about "sensing the evil within".
I also find it HIGHLY unlikely that Isabel is Vilandra. Mostly - because this would mean we have very, very stupid EA. Why give her a "heads up" about the fact she betrayed her people and a threatened "mandate" to betray them again? It would make more sense to REUNITE her with her great love - and let HIM
coerce her gently to the "dark side". I think that Tess is going to turn out to be the betrayer.
The observation that each EA seemed to have a "target" is also interesting. I would like to know exactaly WHAT the EA are after - I dont think its as simple as just being the granolith.

We now know there were two pods with 4 hybrids in each. At first, I thought this was a redundancy built in as a safety measure. If one pod was damaged you went to the back-up containing the exact same genetic material. If you are desperate enough to clone your leaders, you want to make sure it works.

However, if you expect to recreate the Royal 4 on earth, you need to understand the role nurture plays into development. It would make sense to also send down other key people in the 4's life. Others who played key parts in make each of the 4 who they are or the leaders they are to become.

If you don't have a redundant system, meaning the other pod did not contain the same genetic material as the first, you need to build in other safety features. You would not want to keeo all your eggs in one basket so you split up the Royal 4.

Odds are good that the 4 did not know each other their entire life. Especially, Max's bride. So you would put those who did grow up together in one pod and the second pod would contain the bride and those important to her development.

The momogram had to be a recording and the mother has no way of knowing who she addresses. If everything had gone to plan it would have been the correct 4: Max, Liz, Michael and Isabel. But there was a crash and humans took the pods. In So47, we see 2 aliens attempting to recover the pods. Did they make it out with both? It would require them to separate. The pod chamber was set up for only one pod

I also do not think Nasedo was ever the brains behind the operation. After the crash some aliens are captured immediately, of which one is Nasedo. After M/I/M/T's pod is secure that gaurdian alien is captured and held with Nasedo. Nasedo learns the location of the pod. Nasedo doesn't know the specifics of the operation. He only knows the big pitcure; the royal 4 are dead and the mission is to take them safely to Earth. The gaurdian dies. Nasedo escapes. His ignorance of the operation's specifics,the 4 have been split between 2 pods, leads him to believe there is only one pod and it contains all 4. He would of course raise Tess to believe she is the princess.

The second pod containing Liz, the real princess, lies undisturded until the grandmother finds it. Only Liz has survived and is an infant. Granny takes the baby to Roswell. Somehow, Granny places Liz seamlessly into her daughter's life. No one but Granny knows Liz is not a biological off spring. Maybe Liz's mom had given birth to a baby girl and when Granny visits the hospital, the legitamate baby is dead. If no one has discovered the death, what's the harm? The abandoned baby is placed in a loving home and the parents are spared grief.

Its like the female version of King Arthur. Liz is Arthur who has no idea of her true identity. The secret dies with the Grandma.

One of the reasons I have always has trouble believing Liz is an alien is she displays no powers. Wouldn't the power just pop out in times of great stress as it did with Michael and his foster father? Its a natural part of their beinging. How could she live 17+ years and never develop any powers?

Except, we've all (or most of us) have had a thought that maybe Liz is Vilandra. So, maybe CW was confused thinking Is was Vilandra and hence the "going after her", but in reality (if there is such a thing) LIZ is VILANRDA and therefore, your idea matches up!!!

(btw, hi R.B.I.'s)

First of all I want to appologize for some of the rude comments I made on thread 13. I've been in a funk all week after EOTW, and I was taking it out on people here... My humblest appologies.

Next, Welcome to the newbies! Gis4teach, Chica, and Jewels71 you guys are talking about stuff that we've discussed before, but it's always good to get a fresh perspective on things! Don't ever worry about restating something. Old clues constantly apply, and I for one tend to forget things quickly!

Starbox~ What book are you getting all this info from? I think I want a copy! I'm totally into symbolism in stories!

Jason Katims, you are awesome! I'm always so impressed by the thought and knowledge that is put into every eppisode! I wish he would write every eppisode!

I still need to post my thoughts on Time travel, but I will soon...

Thanks to those who asnwered A/S/L... and if you haven't then please do!

Agent Rox over and out!

Well, *slap slap*, no having "bad days" here! Just kidding.. we all have our moments (and I, for one, had TONS after EOTW )

quote:Next, Welcome to the newbies! Gis4teach, Chica, and Jewels71 you guys are talking about stuff that we've discussed before, but it's always good to get a fresh perspective on things! Don't ever worry about restating something. Old clues constantly apply, and I for one tend to forget things quickly!

I just want to say - I AGREE! I haven't been on this thread that long, but I CONSTANTLY need reminding of what people think about this and that. I love it every time!!

quote:Originally posted by jjac:
Opps! I sort of doubled up on my reply - sorry! Anyway, I really got excited about the idea of Tess being the betrayer. I do believe that she is supposed to be Max's mate now, but I don't believe that he ever really loved her. I believe that he was in love with another on his planet and, with him being the leader, for some reason their love was forbidden. When Tess found out about this, she went after his arch enemy for a lover which ultimately led to the downfall of Max and his people. The royal four were then cloned and given a second chance to get it right. However, I think that the other love was also cloned (maybe using the genes from Sheila Hubbard's unborn child) because she was also a protector of the royal four. In EOTW, their love also leads to the destruction of Earth and the royal four once again, so FM came back to stop it before it began once again. The key seems to be to straighten out the relationship with Tess before Max and Liz can finally be together. This could also account for Nasedo's hostility toward Liz "She doesn't belong here" and his insistance with Max and Tess mating although this was not the message that their mother gave to them (she did not once mention the improtance of Max and Tess mating). Also, why would the skins tell Isabel the truth? Wouldn't they want to protect that connection they had within the royal four to assure their victory? Just my random thoughts. Any comments?

I think this is an awesome theory (and it makes my DrewamGirl heart go !!

I'm a firm believe that T is not what she says she is. I also think that there's a possibility that in time T and Max may become friends, enough to save the Pod Squad, but that Liz being around (and WITH Max) will be essential to the continued existance of the Pod Squad and Earth!

I don't believe anything the Skins say, as we've already seen them kill Nasedo. Why kill Nasedo and then go and tell Is "everything"? Doesn't make sense. Plus, why is Courtney SO into "Mikey G"?? If she were smart she'd go after Is or Maria - like befriend one of them and THEN turn on them. Why go for Mike??

I think she knows how important Liz is, or senses it, and therefore, stays away from Maria and Is, as Liz has/will continually come to the rescue of "her sisters".

Plus, you know how Courtney said in Surprise, "no one's after T "?? I think it's because T is one of them and she was speaking literally!

Ok, sorry, my thought are all over the mpa here. I have a friend coming over to watch EOTW again with me tonight and my mind's already racing!

Starbox~ What book are you getting all this info from? I think I want a copy! I'm totally into symbolism in stories!

Agent Rox over and out!

Rox - Its called "The Penguin Dictionary of Symbols" by Jean Chevalier and Alain Gheerbrant. Its a reference book - over 1,000 pages long :-) and its kind of expensive - 20.00 for a paperback (I work at a bookstore so I got a discount :-) :-) - but it is very thorough and interesting.

Here is some misc info on Venus:

Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calenders.
Venusian years are grouped in cycles of FIVE.
(I am still wondering if Liz's desire to "mate" with Max is ties to the movement of Venus........)
Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin (I think there is a Max/Sun connection too) - Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind.
Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle.
In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to recieve flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again).
Venus is the guardian spirit of horses.
Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication, SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace."

Remember how at the beginning of EOTW FM thanks Liz for "Every SMILE" - hmmmmmmm - I think Max has mentioned Liz and smiles before as well.

M/"I love her, what can I say?"
Ma/"You're hopeless"

Zero

Also, 1+4 = 5

Liz does not have to be alien to change, it could be down to Max's intervention. Cadmium X, anyone? I do think she has the essence of the bride, (or Max's true love), and his actions woke up her latent abilities.

This doesn't really have anything serious to do with the thread, but mi amiga ClarinetKate pointed this out to me (y'all probably already caught it)... but many of us think Liz is Venus, right? And according to Future Max, Liz will have a friend named "Serena" in the future.... Venus & Serena??

Tennis anyone??

Melodious

In response to Rockgoddess:

Maybe no one awakened Liz's powers for these 17 years, but the flashes are a beginning. She is just a small town girl, not much stress in her life until...now. It will be interesting to see what will happen!

I am sooo new to this thread and I absolutely LOVE it!!! You guys are AMAZING!!! I do have a question though...probably several. But what is the significance of Serena? I know FMax said that would be a friend of Liz's one day. The way ya'll are referencing it though, it sounds like there is more to that name. Could someone explain?

Thanks!!

BehrHugs,
Ashton

First - We have speculated that M & L are leaders, but in Ask Not, Maria basically tells us that. "Follow your heart, isn't that what all the GREAT LEADERS do." Okay, who are the two characters that always follow their heart (Liz being told to by GC) - Liz and Max!

Also, I (with others) have speculated in the past that the healing of Harding did not work because of the lack of Liz's presence. Though I still think that Liz is a highly evolved human (maybe of alien origin from a colonization years ago), what if Liz has in her the essence (passed down from River Dog somehow) necessary to help the balance in a healing. That was the missing clue since Liz could not have been present when River Dog was involved in Nasedo's healing, BUT CG could have been or the essence of the person who was ther could have been passed on to Liz.

Finally, in Ask Not we wonder why the beeper went off with Michael, but not Max. Some speculated it was because Brody was holding it, but this doe not work since Brody DOES pick it up when Max is asking about it - thus, something else must have caused it to go off when Mike was there.

Okay, got to go, but have to get those things off my mind!

Zero

Tennis anyone??

!!!LMAO!!!

I totally had the same question. My only logical guess is that Mike is from a different Pod. I have this weird idea that Mike is part of an EA Pod Squad or somehow not "of the same essence" as Max. I can't quite figure out how it all fits together, but I think (although I LOVE him) he was "bred" to be evil and that circumstances have made him more like Max than what he was manufactured for. Maybe this is why Liz and Mike have never really had a strong connection. He was always so much closer to Maria (obviously) than Liz, yet we see a break through in Sof47 AFTER Mike finds out about Hal (this makes my mind go back to the speculation that Liz and Hal are somehow connected)!

OK, I'm off for the weekend.. don't have TOO many gerat insights without me, as I have to be able to find this thread on Monday!!!

Have a FABULOUS weekend, R.B.I.!!!

Hello Melody... see, I am here... now, go run and post your theory on the UC thread... if I can brave the dreamers you can stand the UCers

This is in reply to Sublime Muffin's observations (which I will cut and paste to suit my needs...)

<<Perhaps, for some reason, half of there essenses are stored in human bodies born to human parents. >>

Now this to me is the only ehhh point of this theory... But let's say for the sake of arguing that somehow a crucial piece of the essences was missing from the podsters and had been transplanted into the humans (BTW, now that time traveling has been inserted into the story this IS viable).

<<Tess- Lacking in a sense of structure, and a sense of social mores.
Liz-Morality and structure in spades.>>

Now the only reason this even struck me at all is because talking to Melody has engrained the tenets of Liz mythology into my brain... indelibly...unfortunately

What if Liz did indeed have a piece of Tess' essence? Wouldn't this explain Max's intitial immediate INSTICNTUAL attraction to young Liz.. because his essence recognizes his love in her.
Since this is the Liz mythology thread, I'll argue that the piece of the essence in Liz is the essential part, the part that makes Max an effectual ruler (decision making and leading, lord knows that's not Max's forte..)...

I would then further argue that these essences have some sort of recognition for each other... Hence the flashes and the orb responding to Liz, blah di blah... and once Max's essence recognized Liz's he fails to recognize Tess', perhaps because she is missing the crucial part that made him love her, or because he already thinks he's found his young bride...

Or, if this whole essence in Liz thing doesn't work for you, then perhaps Liz brings to the table what was Tess' strongest attribute in their past life, that through an engineering mishap (maybe her pod was the leaky one...) is now missing in Tess. Max unconsciously seeks out what he knows will balance and compliment him, the very same traits that Liz happens to possess...

At the very least I do like the content of Sublime Muffin's post because it does emphasize how it isn't just the four aliens, but the four humans as well that form a cohesive, intelligent, caring, strong, etc etc unit.

And if this was the Panty Bridage thread I'd say what I really think about Max and Kyle splitting an essence

--KATE

Do you remember my old theory about the shooters coming from the future to kill Liz so that certain things would happen? I'm liking that theory more and more (and not just cause I thought of it, lol ).., here's why:

Run, Lola, Run.. I saw it last year so I don't remember exactly, so you recent viewers help me out... how many times does she do the run before it's right? I can't remember...

For some reason the number of times strikes me as really important... here's why...

When Whitaker said that Run Lola Run was the story of her life, that was the huge clue that this was her second time doing the same thing, she had been on twilo, yada yada...

With EOTW in mind Liz's response becomes incredibly significant. She says, Yeah me too... um.. WTF? Her boyfriend is a drug dealer and she has to run? NO! BUT, we now know she had at least ONE failed life. In FMax's time she did something wrong, and thus the world ended.

I'm thinking that this wasn't the FIRST failed life though... I think the first failed life is one where Liz never got shot... this ties in great with my shooters from the future (I think I called it the real unaltered future or something), who either
1) want to get rid of her...perhaps she becomes a research biologist and is responsible for creating biowarfare against the aliens or something like that, thus the aliens (Not Max, but his followers perhaps) come back to "ged rid of her" which results in her shooting (which could lead to another incorrect life, one where she dies, or the present life she is leading where she has been healed by Max)

2)know they need to get Liz on their side because in their time she has proven her leadership and blah di blah and they know that Max loves her and will save her, so they shoot her hoping for that to occur...

sorry, I hope this isn't terribly confusing, as I'm typing as I think and my tendonitis is starting to ache so my brain is getting numb...

So, what I'm saying, is now that time travel and one failed life has been positively introduced into the story line, it is not a far stretch at all to believe that shooters from the future shot liz. In light of her comment in Suprise, I find this to be very valid.

What do you guys think? (Does this mean I have to come back in here to read replies?? )

--KATE

Wow! Starbox, that lameness info was so good. Thanks!

Thanks SweetJo! They are actually animations using still pics and transitions. I use Animation Shop which comes with Paint Shop Pro. I like your take on the hybrid thing.

Hi Gis4teach, chica, Jewels71, Ashton, & HHF! Welcome.

quote:Originally posted by Gis4teach:
More Flashes...please.
I was thinking the same thing.
...clues, please...

Aha! Evid, thanks for the clue!

quote:Originally posted by Starbox:
Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle.
Very interesting. Aren't we always saying the Liz is the brains behind the plans? She has the capacity to be the true queen, not only the love of Max's life, but also the ability to do battle with the EA. More and more clues point to her being the leader... strength, compassion, self-sacrifice, logic and reasoning.

... let's say for the sake of arguing that somehow a crucial piece of the essences was missing from the podsters and had been transplanted into the humans (BTW, now that time traveling has been inserted into the story this IS viable)....

What if Liz did indeed have a piece of Tess' essence? Wouldn't this explain Max's intitial immediate INSTICNTUAL attraction to young Liz.. because his essence recognizes his love in her.

This goes along with some of those previous theories of "split essences", but my own speculations prior were that Max/Liz shared the leader/king essence, not Tess/Liz sharing the "young bride's", but I suppose the speculating can go either way.

quote:Now the only reason this even struck me at all is because talking to Melody has engrained the tenets of Liz mythology into my brain... indelibly...unfortunately

MWA HA HA!! My work is done!

quote:Since this is the Liz mythology thread, I'll argue that the piece of the essence in Liz is the essential part, the part that makes Max an effectual ruler (decision making and leading, lord knows that's not Max's forte..)...

Although, this particular idea, makes me go back to my original thoughts on Max/Liz sharing one essence. What if Max (as you refer him Kate), is this "less than effective" ruler alone because he NEEDS Liz (the other half of the 'leader essence') to be a *complete* leader? Perhaps because Liz (or a person like her) was lacking in the previous life, this is why they (he) failed? I don't see so much of a connection between Mike/Maria, Alex/Isabel, Kyle/Tess (even though they do complement each other to a certain degree; I don't feel they're in the league of M/L... of course, I'm ridiculously biased, Dreamer to the core ).

quote:And if this was the Panty Bridage thread I'd say what I really think about Max and Kyle splitting an essence

--KATE

This would explain Kyle having those *particular* visions, wouldn't it??

Great insights as always Kate, you should definitely make this thread a regular stop!

Melodious

Dang!

Now that I think about it...in the Balance, there were 5 stones, correct? I mean, we had Max, Isabel, Maria, Alex and Liz. Michael used the 5 stones to make the 'map' or V-shaped constellation symbol in the wall of the cave.

The four M/M/I/T used only 4 stones to bring Nasedo back in Ask Not. Where IS the 5th stone? Also, if that theory about Liz does hold true with her being necessary to bring Nasedo back, why did she not use the fifth stone in Destiny when they healed Nasedo after Max's torture?

Did that make sense? I totally love this theory...just wanted to see if I had all of the bases covered.

BehrHugs,
Ashton

If any of y'all want to read this excellent theory, it's on Maxcedo's Sci Fi theories site (someone please post the URL, I don't have it handy).

quote:Run, Lola, Run.. I saw it last year so I don't remember exactly, so you recent viewers help me out... how many times does she do the run before it's right? I can't remember...

For some reason the number of times strikes me as really important...

Correct me if I'm wrong RBIs, but didn't Lola try 3 times??

quote:When Whitaker said that Run Lola Run was the story of her life, that was the huge clue that this was her second time doing the same thing, she had been on twilo, yada yada...

With EOTW in mind Liz's response becomes incredibly significant. She says, Yeah me too... um.. WTF? Her boyfriend is a drug dealer and she has to run? NO! BUT, we now know she had at least ONE failed life. In FMax's time she did something wrong, and thus the world ended.

I'm thinking that this wasn't the FIRST failed life though... I think the first failed life is one where Liz never got shot... this ties in great with my shooters from the future (I think I called it the real unaltered future or something)

So, basing this on your previous theory (the "time travelling shooters"/"alternate universe" theory) and the fact that Future Liz's life was also a "failed life"... this would be 1 & 2 (going along with RLR). Coinciding this further with RUN LOLA RUN, post EOTW, the CURRENT Liz life is the CORRECT Liz life, it's the third.

quote:1) want to get rid of her...perhaps she becomes a research biologist and is responsible for creating biowarfare against the aliens or something like that, thus the aliens (Not Max, but his followers perhaps) come back to "ged rid of her" which results in her shooting (which could lead to another incorrect life, one where she dies, or the present life she is leading where she has been healed by Max)

2)know they need to get Liz on their side because in their time she has proven her leadership and blah di blah and they know that Max loves her and will save her, so they shoot her hoping for that to occur...

Or the shooters themselves were sent by Liz from the FIRST (failed) life (the Liz that was never shot in the Crashdown) to right things in the current life (which is now, post EOTW, coincidentally the correct one)... then we have the OTHER (failed) Liz in the Future sending her husband back also to right things. So this would be two different Lizes attempting to restore what went wrong (which would seemingly HAVE TO make this current life the correct Liz life)... now I'm getting confused.

quote:So, what I'm saying, is now that time travel and one failed life has been positively introduced into the story line, it is not a far stretch at all to believe that shooters from the future shot liz. In light of her comment in Suprise, I find this to be very valid.

btw, perhaps "the shooters" were Max and Michael in different forms sent by (order of) Liz herself? (although this would conflict seemingly with the Quantum Mechanics quasi-explanation Future Max glowered over in EOTW)

Amazing insights Kate!! You blow me away!

quote:What do you guys think? (Does this mean I have to come back in here to read replies?? )

--KATE

Please come back!! You're thoughts and feedback are most (needed) welcomed! The Liz Mythologists don't bite... hard

Melodious

Kate - I totally follow your thought process about the shooters being timetravels, and this being the third time around - which BTW is how many time it took Lola to get it right! I works for me! (Yes - you do have to come back to get the response! )

BehrHugs - I love this theory about Liz's need to be present to achieve the necessary balance for Healing, too! 5 stones - ummmmm!!

Also, WELCOME TO ALL THE NEWBIES - !!

Zero

But what if that were not the only aspect that needed changing ( theories of preventing consumation notwithstanding. ) Had FM not come to Liz, Liz would not have gone to Kyle's to talk to Tess, and not interupted Kyle and Tess' conversation. Maybe Kyle would have trimmed her lamp, bringing on a great sense of internal anguish for Tess. When Max and Liz do a spot of their own lamp trimming, it's the final straw, and Tess leaves Roswell.

Starstruck: with regards to your duplicate podsters theory, and there being ANOTHER Max. Even though he would have been an exact duplicate in every way, the way we are brought up, and our surroundings go a long way to determine who we are. Unless Duplicate Max was raise in the same loving/caring environment, they would be very different.

Rockgoddess: Nacedo becoming the protector by default is an interesting idea. Perhaps, if he were The Twilo Tess' real father, this would explain his reaction that formed my original "Nacedo as an Evil Alien".

StarBox: Some additional information about Venus. Venus' surface is permanently hidden by a dense mantle of cloud. Venus is the SECOND Planet from the Sun. Mercury lies between The Sun, and Venus. Could Tess (being between Max and Liz) be Mercury? Can anyone think of any connections here? (other than being the Winged messanger of the Gods)

jjac: Liz as a Guardian, involved in the crash. I like this. Perhaps Max's true love was some kind of advisor, court member, whatever and volunteered to accompany the journey. She died in the crash, and her 'Soul' eventually found it's way to Liz.

clarinetkate: While I enjoyed your Time Travelling theories, this thought worries me. Where would a time travelling ad-infinitum scenario end? Everytime something goes wrong for one side, they 'pop back' and fix it. Sound like 'Groundhog Day' to me.

Now, something else to consider about being an ( this should please Qfanny :eyespin: ). Although comparing her cheek cells to Max's does not prove that her own cells are human, Liz's uniform was given to the FBI. Surely they would have examined the DNA structure, and satisfied themselves that it was human.

WR.

Clarinet Kate, Melodious, Qfanny, and all RunLolaRun Theorists: I'm totally with you on the shooting in Pilot being one of the lives--just not convinced which life, and what failed, and failed according to whose goals. As I said earlier somewhere, I can't buy the shooters including Max--just way too out of character. I'm thinking Max and Liz's love seems to screw it up for SOMEONE, but not sure for whom or why. In EOTW, it appeared it messed up all of Earth and Max's people...BUT, behr in mind that this version was AFTER the shooting. Okay, what if "we've got to get rid of her" referred to Tess, and Max healing Liz would make the connection that would alienate (pun unintended) Tess. So then, if Liz hadn't been shot, but Max still knew she was "the one," then what. :eyespin: ack!

P.S., Melodious, our archive site is at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell . I will try to get a search engine on it in the future.

And Max & Liz 4ever, I think you have it in a nutshell.

I like to think of the pebble thrown into the still pond, and how the rings spread out in all directions eventually touching all aspects of the pond in some way. Liz's action was the pebble, and how the ripples spread out through time and their impact is yet to be determined!!

Have a great evening all!

Zero

In EOTW, it appeared it messed up all of Earth and Max's people...BUT, behr in mind that this version was AFTER the shooting. Okay, what if "we've got to get rid of her" referred to Tess, and Max healing Liz would make the connection that would alienate (pun unintended) Tess.

Shapeshifter, I considered Max (& Michael) possibly being the shooters in that they were intentionally trying to make a scenario for Max to expose himself (and everyone else) to Liz. Hence, one Liz (by sending Max/Mi back to that day in the CD) somewhere was trying to right a "failed life"? I don't know, I suppose it's still rather implausible. I suppose I also considered M/Mi being the shooters because one of them was particularly rude to Maria (reminds me of Michael I guess, but of course, he was purposely being rude to protect her from what was about to go down... also very Michael).

Forgot to add, I *love* your thoughts that the "We've got to get rid of her" might have been in reference to Tess, and not Liz. I never considered that.

quote:P.S., Melodious, our archive site is at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell . I will try to get a search engine on it in the future.

Thanks for reposting that shapeshifter! I'd encourage anyone whose interested in figuring out what the h*ll we're rambling on about Time Travel to visit the above url, it's very well put together.

Melodious

Anyway, I wanted to paste a post I posted on another thread and see if I can get some feedback. If my theory is to far out there don't feel bad by setting me straight!

Here it is: quote:I have to wonder about that leaking pod in Summer of 1947. Why did they show it? Is it significant? What happened to the fetus inside of it? I have to wonder if the fetus was implanted into a human - Grandma Claudia - (because its sac was damaged and if not then it would die) and then was born in 1947/48. However, if that is the case who implanted the fetus - maybe the glowing aliens? If so then maybe this baby is somehow contected to Liz. Let's do the math - if the fetus was born in 1947/48 it would be 52/53 now. I suppose its possible for one of her parent to be that old and just not look like it. Whitaker was approaching her 50th year (remember she said they could only stay in the skins for 50 years and she needed the granolith to regenerate or something) and she looked more like in her late 30s. Maybe aliens don't age like we do. Look at M/I/M - they were fetus' in those sacs (1947) so in reality they are all in their 50s but for some reason only "aged" 6 human years from 1947 to 1989. Okay, I'm know I'm stretching here but, it is possible. Any thoughts on this?

Thanks again for some great theories. I appreciate any feedback you guys can offer.

Bye!

I don't know if someone already replied but a cat o nine tails as far as I know is a whip that was used to punish people. It was made of several strips of leather, normally with something on the end usually metal in order to scratch.

Justs writing to remind you guys to go check out the Roswell 2 boards and help out in the CAMPAIGNS since this is NOVEMBER SWEEPS TIME and Roswell could use all the help us Roswellians can give.

Thanks for your time,
justsmile

Another variation on the theme would be that Liz was necessary to save the podsters, the shooters were skins, and Max saving her was another version of her life (she died in an earlier one). Of course, in EOTW, it seemed that the time travel thing--"if this works" and "It wasn't intended to be, but it does have an enormous amount of power, and we were able to modify it to artificially create a tear in time space"--might have not been used before to this extent. This whole thing is reminscent of the Tictac clue that we are still waiting to understand fully.

I'd go with SmileyFace's theory about GC finding the leaking pod. The baby inside would probably be born soon after, '47 or '48. Probably a parent. Maybe Jeff Parker.

Relating to Sheila Hubble. I always thought the big thing was that she was pregnant and Everett Hubble was born in '47. And that the alien might have been after the baby and not Sheila.

Maybe there are aliens out there who know a pod hatched in '47 and is more interested in it's offspring that the actual podster. And they're just trying to off children of people born near that time. (I don't know about the time traveling theories.)

And we don't know that the pod was damaged in the crash, maybe it was supposed to hatch in '47.

More than I ever could have imagined when I made the first post!!

BTW - Many of us have wondered the significance to the leaking pod (assuming it was a leaking pod, and not just run off from all the pods). Was one of them already "cut open" for examination when the "mother bears" arrived to dispose of the doctors (none of which looked like Jason Behr in slo mo btw) - why else have all those coffins if not for burial after examination. If so - cut open - than the guardian aliens would have to find a way to preserve that pods inhabinant. A willing (or unknowing) human might have made sense for incubation. I think the long gestation period for the pods were planned for a reason - not a necessity. Maybe to correspond with other events to occur in the future on Earth - like Liz's birth???

Zero

DeeDee

Hello ROCKGODDESS- I also still have trouble with the whole "Liz is an alien" theory. Just as you have, however, I have entertained the idea to see how it would have worked out if she indeed is an alien.

So far, I don't think we have seen Liz in an extremely stressful or dangerous situation in which she could display powers if she has them. HOWEVER, NEXT WEEKS EPPY MIGHT JUST CHANGE ALL THAT!

IN THE PREVIEW FOR HARVEST-Liz and Max are finally in great danger among EA. So, will we see Liz save the day? It looked like Max was going to be rendered helpless by the EA. So who is going to save him and Tess, I ask you?
After next Monday's ep. I may be convinced that Liz is an alien.
For those of you thinking "she wouldn't save Tess", well I think after TEOTW she definitely would.

ABOUT VILANDRA-after TEOTW I now believe that it is quite possible that Michael is Vilandra. I know, this gets into the whole crossing the sexes issue but Michael is really attracted to Courtney. He is the only podster who has been so drawn romantically to a skin. (gag!I know, romantic yuck!)

Courtney is either a good skin for some reason, or Michael is Vilandra and Courtney is the skin lover and that's why she hasn't killed him.

RUN LOLA RUN-I just saw it tonight! I am now convinced that the storyline of Liz in Roswell will somehow reflect the storyline of RLR. Otherwise, why would the movie have been mentioned the way it was in Surprise and then 2 eps. later we have Liz changing the course of events to change the future? I will be highly surprised if they don't revisit the "Liz needs to change the future thing" again this season.
HEY, I saw the ROSWELL swirlly orb symbol on the door at the bottom of the stairs also.

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

LEND A HAND TO ROSWELL!--VISIT ROS2 MB.

One of the aliens must have gotten one set of pods to the pod chamber.

Did the other alien take the other set that was damaged and hide it elsewhere? I guess it makes a big difference how developed the fetus in the damaged pod was. It might have required another incubator like others have said, like GC. Dunno about the other 3 missing pods. The damage to one could have caused them all to hatch. If one of the parents could be a podster, so could some of the others.

So after placing the fetus in a human, the alien leaves the orb, designed to send signals when the two sets of pods make "contact". Esp. the leader of each set.

If the original 4 podsters were meant to work together, isn't it more reasonable that all 8 are meant to work together?

That the 2 sets were meant to complement each other and balance out the other set's flaws.

Thinking too hard here...

nermal, I have always winced at the Liz-as-alien theories because (as I posted last season) it destroys the romance of star-crossed lovers and relegates their love to a programmed destiny instead of a wonderous, spontaneous occurrance.

However, I have always kept my mind open to the possibility (even though I didn't like it), and now am thinking that if, as you say, the doctors angered the momma bears when they cut into a pod, perhaps that fetus was rescued by a human and grew to be a human without the alien essence--maybe Jeff Parker was adopted by GC and Pete Parker Jr. So then, maybe the essence was somehow put into Tess, but Max's human side recognizes Liz as the correct human. I still think this all ruins the romance. Maybe someone else can tweak it to make it work better.

Aren't Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess "half-aliens"? They call themselves hybrids this season because of the whole alien-essence/human DNA mix.

When you say Liz is the "half alien" (I assume from some spoiler), are you saying that one of the "regular" humans is a (secret or so far unknown) hybrid as well or do you mean something else?

I'm so confused!

But I trust that no matter how much science fiction they throw into this, it will still be romantic.

BTW GraceKel, I am still in romantic shock over that old revelation LOL. I am just ridiculously purist when it comes to romance. I want my star crossed lovers to be from totally different planets. Okay, keep in mind here that I haven't been on a date in over 10 years (maybe because if I'm too old for JB, then no one will do? ) Anyway, you are right, your plot is perfectly romantic; I'm just still attached to Liz as being like me when I was 16, and having her adored by a kind and caring (and hunky) alien. But regardless, she is special, and I can barely stand the suspense of finding out what makes her special to Max.

I love this love story too. It's heartbreaking to watch M/L get close to eachother and then something happens to tear them apart again. I've said it before, but these two have got to be the most self-sacrificing people! Will they ever find happiness or will they forever have to sacrifice their love for the benefit of others? My romantic heart says they can find a balance for both.

Thanks nermal and Zero for commenting on my theory of the leaking pod. There has got to be some significance to it or else why would they show it?

I thought I would de-lurk for a moment, because I was thinking about the theory of Max/Michael returning to the past in the pilot and the shooting. I think FM states he cannot talk to Max because they (PM and FM) cannot be in the same place at the same time. This would mean that FM/FM could not have come back to the Crashdown at that particular time because PM/PM were already there.

I still think someone knew how important Liz would be to the pod squad and went there to "get rid of her".

I have yet to be able to go back and watch EOTW again, but I obviously missed a bunch of things the first time around, but FM obviously knew that he had been completely incapable of changing himself the 1st time around and successfully (tragically it turns out) resisted his destiny. He (and Future Liz) knew that only Liz could do this.

Thanks for the really interesting thoughts/theories.

Merllie

"Welcome to my (our) world."

Tess & Max and Michael & Isabel seem to have the same kind of bethrothal bonds that Vulcans had on the old original Star Trek. They're bonded, but not totally and not permanently. It doesn't become total until after mating.

I'm guessing that, for whatever reason (and theories certainly abound!) Max & Liz have the same kind of quasi-bond as Max & Tess, and it can become permanent with either.

If Max and Liz made love the night of the concert, it would have become permanent between them and Tess would be forever locked out of what she saw as her only purpose for being there, so she leaves Roswell.

Being all alone would make Tess more vulnerable to a fatal attack by the Skins, which would explain why she didn't rejoin the future Max, Isabel, Micheal to fight their enemies 14 years in the future.

Well the whole discussion on Liz being an alien is kind of spoilerish isn't it and we are discussing that. Consequently, I assumed it was alright... I apologize.

I also apologize if I was treading into forbidden territory on this thread/board with the Liz as half-alien thing.

There was just so much discussion of it here that I thought this was a good place to post my question.

My apologies to all.

Now that I think about it...in the Balance, there were 5 stones, correct? I mean, we had Max, Isabel, Maria, Alex and Liz. Michael used the 5 stones to make the 'map' or V-shaped constellation symbol in the wall of the cave.

The four M/M/I/T used only 4 stones to bring Nasedo back in Ask Not. Where IS the 5th stone? Also, if that theory about Liz does hold true with her being necessary to bring Nasedo back, why did she not use the fifth stone in Destiny when they healed Nasedo after Max's torture?

Did that make sense? I totally love this theory...just wanted to see if I had all of the bases covered.

BehrHugs,
Ashton

I don't think Liz necessarily needs to be holding the stone to be part of the healing, just her presence at the healing in Destiny may have made the difference, she was not there in Ask Not, when the healing failed. Also, remember in the Balance, she stepped out of the healing circle, but still found her own path.

Shapeshifter, thanks for commenting on my theory. I also wish the writers would re-visit the Native American connection. There are some really great stories to be told there, rather than this tired Evil Aliens c**p. (Can you tell I'm feeling slightly disillusioned about Roswell at the moment!)

GraceKel, I love your take on the Max/Liz romance. Whether Liz is human, part alien or just changed by Max's intervention, it's still a romantic premise.

So then, perhaps we will have an unbeatable (SH being tops now) steamy romance ep where in spite of Max and Tess being together, Max and Liz go for it... Better have Kyle waiting in the wings.

BTW, We have been discussing Liz as and alien and Liz as a human since last spring. (see Maxcedo's Archive of Season 1 Theories at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell ). We can continue to debate this until proven otherwise, and then still debate it because on Roswell, things are not always as they seem.

Oh, one more thing. I have to vent here because there's no better place. My teenage daughter watched the tape of EOTW with me on Wednesday, after which Liz's Importance Thread 13 crashed. I was very distraught because EOTW seemed to at last verify what we had been claiming since Zero's first thread last May, and I had wanted to archive the thread in case we do a Season 2 theories site. When I expressed my exasperation to my daughter (who maxed out the SATs), she still did not see how Liz was important at all. Ah well, I just read we now have a full season to convince her. (and we did rescue most of #13)

Oh, one more thing. I have to vent here because there's no better place. My teenage daughter watched the tape of EOTW with me on Wednesday, after which Liz's Importance Thread 13 crashed. I was very distraught because EOTW seemed to at last verify what we had been claiming since Zero's first thread last May, and I had wanted to archive the thread in case we do a Season 2 theories site. When I expressed my exasperation to my daughter (who maxed out the SATs), she still did not see how Liz was important at all. Ah well, I just read we now have a full season to convince her. (and we did rescue most of #13)

So, will this episode be shown on HBO, or the Playboy Channel? Much as I enjoy looking at "Liz"/Shiri (and others enjoy "Max"/Jason), Liz did make it plain that she was No, No, No: NOT ready to take that step. I take her at her (JK's) word...

Did we ever figure out what happened to #13? Might the FanForum folks be able to resurrect a copy from their backup files?

I am starting to really think on what someone said before about if Vilandra was Tess. Then I think that her brother was Michael like was previously cut out, because CW never said it was the leader who was betrayed. I think maybe she fell in love w/someone else and betrayed them all. So Max could have been in love w/her, but in the recreation of them all maybe the aliens who did it knew what happened and tried to change certain things in the podsters so it would not happen again because they were still integral to their survival. CW said that history always repeats itself then if Kyle and Tess had sex maybe she would feel like she betrayed them all again because even though she couldn't have Max before after sleeping w/Kyle she never will cause this gives Max more oppurtunity w/Liz. This angers Tess in the long run and she leaves, thus putting the podsters life in danger again. I know it is a lot and very sketchy, but I hope you guys get my gist

It is hard to make sense sometimes

Now - I am working on a theory - maybe some of you who frequent the sci-fi threads can let me know if it been discussed before.

Suppose that 4 of the Pod's "hatched" roughly 6 years after the crash. (The ones near Atherton's perhaps????). Nasedo SAYS that he had been the alien in FBI captivity BUT - Pierce did not seem to be "suprised" by the fact that Max was a totally different type of creature. In fact - he ASSUMED Max was the same alien. Perhaps the alien the FBI had held was a podster.
Also - RiverDog assumed "Nasedo" was the same
"being" as the podsters. Evidently - their reaction to the sweat lodge had been the same. Was the "Nasedo" RiverDog knew also a podster??

Ah yes - but remember - in the episode before SH Max and Liz were NOT together. In fact - moments before the strawberyy scene they are discussing being "just friends". Likewise in EOTW - the day BEFORE the Gomez concert Liz had no intention of even dating Max at the moment let alone doing the deed. Yet - obvioulsy she did (in the EOTW timeline).

I think if Max and Liz are physically in the same relative location when those planets align.............................

Kadota - ITA with you on the sex creating a
"power bond" - I have written a couple of times on this theory on this thread and on the ill fater THREAD 13 :-)
Go back and rewatch (or reread) Sexual Healing.
I would say - however - that the Max/Liz potential for connection exists in a way that it does not exist for Tess/Max or Isabel/Michael. Once again - going back to past episodes - neither Max/Tess nor M/I feel the same type of attraction/drive to mate.
In fact - all three of them (M/M/I) felt that the dreams they had in "four square" were the result of mind manipulation by Tess. The dreams did not feel "authentic" to them on an instinctive level.

The autopsy report of Sheila Hubble's death confirmed that she was three months pregnant, indicating (at least, to me) that the foetus was still in her womb.

HOWEVER, I have often wondered if perhaps she had been pregnant with twins. Then, of course, all the theories of this vein would be valid.

WR

jjj

The autopsy report of Sheila Hubble's death confirmed that she was three months pregnant, indicating (at least, to me) that the foetus was still in her womb.

HOWEVER, I have often wondered if perhaps she had been pregnant with twins. Then, of course, all the theories of this vein would be valid.

WR
I totaly agree. I was under the assumption that everyone knew that already. I should have made myself a bit clearer about the fact I thought it may have been twins.Sorry for the confusion. :smile: I had been reading so much that like I said my head was
sorda spinning !!!

How would the Skins manipulate a human pregnancy in a way that would further their cause, whatever that is?

Finding out about CW is evidence that the Skins are involved with the gov't. Maybe they or someone else got ahold of the other set of pods.

SweetJo-I think the more we discuss the 5th element theory of La Salle the more is makes sense to the Liz Mythology.
Also, on a previous thread I had posted that I thought a gender mix-up had taken place between Isabel and Michael. I always thought something was screwy w/the podsters. Here is something I came up with---When the podsters came out Max was felt a connection w/Izzy. This could have been because a close relationship w/his trusted second in command. Where as when Michael came out he was distant from them both. If they were switched this could be because he knew that he had done something wrong and distanced himself. Even now it was interesting that usually Isabel stayed neutral, but she was the one who instisted on killing Brody. Max tends to listen to her ideas more then Michael and Michael was as you said was attracted to Courtney. Could Michael be Vilandra? I say why the heck not. Through some more fuel in the fire. I liked to be kept guessing

BTW GraceKel, I am still in romantic shock over that old revelation LOL. I am just ridiculously purist when it comes to romance. I want my star crossed lovers to be from totally different planets. Okay, keep in mind here that I haven't been on a date in over 10 years (maybe because if I'm too old for JB, then no one will do? ) Anyway, you are right, your plot is perfectly romantic; I'm just still attached to Liz as being like me when I was 16, and having her adored by a kind and caring (and hunky) alien. But regardless, she is special, and I can barely stand the suspense of finding out what makes her special to Max.

I'm so behind on my reading - but had to comment on this. If you buy into my theory of aliens having visited Earth for a LONG time and Liz being a descendent of that colonization, than she is completely "human" (whatever that means), yet, capable of developing super-human powers - like the podsters who supposedly have only "human" psowers, just very evolved. This still allows for the romance of two beings from different backgrounds falling in love with each other, but .... allows for Liz to be part alien and develop powers (which her intelligence is arguably a definite valuable power already seen used over and over again) that maker valuable to the campaign!!
?? Super-human - Yes!

Zero

Also, as far as the religion asspect are concerned, I have always loved how Chris Carter ties them into "X-Files." It would be fun to see them tied in here - and being a Christian, I have never heard anything that says you can't believe in aliens - in fact, a God of everything, as Christian, Jews and Muslims believe in - is a God of the entire universe, and aliens included. The more we see of the universe, etc. though Hubble telescope (ummm), the more I think aliens are possible - though not necessarily in the form we think of on TV.

Zero

Zero

Zero -
I am probably dating myself with this reference - but there used to be a sci-fi show called "The Tomorrow People" - which was about a group of kids that were on the next evolutionary plane of development.
In the show - the "Tommorrow People" went through something called "breaking out" - where they transitioned from being "normal" to having the advanced powers. Liz's "symptoms" in Sexual Healing reminded me of this phenomenon.
Like I said - I am sure I am WAY dating myself here - but I am guessing the writers are somewhere around my age - so maybe the similarity is intentional.

Oh - and Zero - are you spoiled about Harvest yet??? If so PM me - I have a theory to throw out to you.

"Welcome to my (our) world."

Merbird: As someone that has adopted the FM and FMi as the shooters in the Crashdown, your statements were particulary noteworthy to me. I think FM and PM could be in the same room with one another, so long as they don't recognize each other. As far as spacial relationships affecting the time continium, this doesn't seem relevant. PM nearly catches up to FM, and FM stands literally a few feet away from PM in CW office. If spacial relationships were fundamental in creating an "reaction", then I think FM was not successful in stopping one from occurring. --Which leds to a new line of Q's.

Again, I just want to say that I felt that if PM had recognized FM, then *poof*. That would have been the reaction FM and Serena could have been refering too.

Folks, I've got a second wind tonight. I am feeling much better. It must be all the drugs.

BSR

CELESTIAL ANGEL FOR MODERATOR!

I am not offended as far as the spoiler posts to me are concerned. I just feel bad. I came to this board not really offering anything intelligent to say. I had thought about quite a few of these things before I came here, but they had already been discussed soo... Then I ruin everything by posting something that managed to offend a few of the long time posters to this thread... I do apologize...

As far as Nasedo is concerned, I was under the impression that he originally abducted Liz and had every intent to get rid of her eventually. Then later in one of the last episodes of last season, if not the last... I can't remember... didn't he say something to the effect of "What is SHE doing here?" So he didn't act much better towards her. Also, this season he seemed to just tolerate her. I thought he kissed her so she would see that he was not really Max... kind of like HA HA it's too late now!

His kissing her never really struck me as being important... however, everything in Roswell appears to be done for a reason...

Again, I just want to say that I felt that if PM had recognized FM, then *poof*. That would have been the reaction FM and Serena could have been refering too.

Folks, I've got a second wind tonight. I am feeling much better. It must be all the drugs.

I agree with this, after all they weren't too far from each other in proximity when Max was singing to Liz...

Also, as far as the religion asspect are concerned, I have always loved how Chris Carter ties them into "X-Files." It would be fun to see them tied in here - and being a Christian, I have never heard anything that says you can't believe in aliens - in fact, a God of everything, as Christian, Jews and Muslims believe in - is a God of the entire universe, and aliens included. The more we see of the universe, etc. though Hubble telescope (ummm), the more I think aliens are possible - though not necessarily in the form we think of on TV.

Zero

I am also a Christian(Catholic to be exact) and I think it's fine to believe in aliens as long as you don't believe that they are responsible for our creation. Although, it is an interesting theory.

Courtney is either a good skin for some reason, or Michael is Vilandra and Courtney is the skin lover and that's why she hasn't killed him.

I was under the impression that Courtney pulled a Tess and heightened what minor attraction Michael might have had towards her... I mean they were all over each other the second Alex left! I don't think even Michael would have done that without the help of some manipulative alien power.

New and Old, I am having a hard time getting to know you all... So many great theories as always.

I love posts on how the flowers Max throws to Liz change from RED - LOVE roses to WHITE - PEACE roses. I would have never noticed such a thing myself. In fact, I can't believe Max overcame his turtle nature to do that in front of three musicians, even if they weren't looking!!!

I also love the post Starbox made on the numbers.

I have often wondered about prime numbers and reference to the 4+1 equations You have the integers {1,2,3,4,5} Liz is 5. She is a prime number just like {1,2,3}. Only 4 is not prime. 4/2 is 2. The square of 2 is four. Because 4 is not a prime number in the sequence, and the square of two, I wonder if the "4th" podster has any special qualities that sets it apart from 1,2,3. After TEOTW, Tess does seem to be the 4th podster, and she does have qualities that indicate specialness. (I'm getting sick now.)

I've rewatched Blood Brothers 2x just for kicks. (Ok, looking for more horse symbolism.) Anyway, Alex wears a shirt with the number 39 on it. Well, 39= 3*13. 3 and 13 are prime numbers. And Michael wears a shirt with the numbers 77 on it. 77=7*11, again prime numbers. Also, 7+7=14,1+4=5.

And another episode I saw again was The Morning After: There is a shot of Max looking at Topolsky and Valenti meeting at school. In the window is a picture of Kyle as student athlete of the week. His number is 32 on his football jersey. So let's play with this one.

32, 3+2=5
32=4x8 (4 humans and 8 podlings)
32=2x2x2x2x2 or 2 to the 5th power!!!!

I am not sure what these all mean, if they mean anything at all.

Also, in BB I noticed a sign for the "Harvest" something or the other.

There have been lots of questions and ideas as to why Nasado saved Liz instead of Max in the mirror room. It has been said that he knew how important she was. He seemed to act differently toward Liz before he went into to mirrors than when he took Liz out. Yet in Destiny Nasedo/Ed was very pointed in his comment to her that she didn't belong in the pod chamber.

There are also all the theories about Tic Tac vs Nasedo, that they are two different aliens. Many of you feel that Tic Tac may have been watching out for Liz.

Well I have to wonder if there might have been a third Max in the hall of mirrors - the one that pulled Liz out. The reason I wondered about that was in the bus before "Max" shapesifts into the clown we see someone else. And it wasn't Ed Harding. Granted Liz did see the same vision when she kissed him that shee saw in the mustang when she kissed Max/Nasedo. But that could be explained by the fact that Nasedo and Tic Tac are the same type of aliens. And maybe both of them were involved in the Sheila Hubble incident.

I know I'm probably off base and the way season 2 is going it seems that clues from season 1 aren't necessarily valid. But I just thought it was interesting.

Oh and YAAAAAAY! We now have the full 22 episodes for season 2. Next stop season 3.

I know I'm probably off base and the way season 2 is going it seems that clues from season 1 aren't necessarily valid. But I just thought it was interesting.

It seems the many ideas from Season One have not been addressed in Season Two.

As far as there being a third Max, hey, it's not a bad idea. I just hope that we don't have another Clown-sedo round too!

As far as Nasedo is concerned, I was under the impression that he originally abducted Liz and had every intent to get rid of her eventually. ...
His kissing her never really struck me as being important... however, everything in Roswell appears to be done for a reason...
Hey RoswellMoe, I blush to think of some of the things I posted in my first 100 posts here--fortunately not too many noticed . But spoilers are a real no-no (as you found out), and so get noticed. Anyway, I think you have plenty to add. This post of yours reminds me of how similar the shooting incident in crashdown was to the kidnapping in M2M. It re-enforces my Nacedo-as-shooter theory. Everyone sure seems to think Liz will prevent Max from saving the worlds, but we all know better. And that's not a spoiler; that's just because we KNOW Liz is important!

Goodness gracious! I step out to buy some knee socks at WalMart, and at least 4 of you start bemoaning the loss of thread 13. Well, on page one of this thread I was able to post the link to Thread 13 minus page one (that was the one the server ate) thanks to Qfanny and Melodius1's detective and reporting work. Good job, mates! It is at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LzMyth13.htm

And Qfanny, I can tell from the shape of your orb that you're feeling much better.

Bump Bump Bump Bump

Liz I would love to believe is more than just the love of Max's life - are you spoiled ZERO ( I am currently unspoiled) - is there something more we can look forward to...I heard a buzz about ep 10 - I don't get my hopes up...

The current developments in the series lead me to wonder how Max and Liz will surface after all that happened in EOTW.

Theory:
Liz has knowledge of the granolith that none of the others do - will her knowledge of its ability to allow time travel be imporatnt this season and thus cause Max to question HOW she obtained such knowledge - which will not only advance the plot BUT allow for a reconcilliation.
(If I repeat an idea - I apologize - my break does not allow for 6 pages of reading).

Thus whether Liz is alien or not - she has knowledge and information that may once again prove vital to the survival of the 4 and namely Max.

Theory:
Liz has knowledge of the granolith that none of the others do - will her knowledge of its ability to allow time travel be imporatnt this season and thus cause Max to question HOW she obtained such knowledge - which will not only advance the plot BUT allow for a reconcilliation.
(If I repeat an idea - I apologize - my break does not allow for 6 pages of reading).

Qfanny replies
This is an observation that I kept forgetting to write down. Liz does know more about the granolith than anyone else. And the fact the FM went back in time to this moment has to be significant too. Why not back to before the shooting? Perhaps because somewhere in the future the podsters realize that Liz has been the fact-finding element for them. Liz is the one that insisted on going to the Indian Reservation. And Liz is the one that said, "Let's trust Topolosky."

Somewhere along the future line, the podsters will realize that they simply cannot do without Liz. (Maybe that realization came out already, with the "It was you" statement.)

Johnson. I guess that Kennedy thing WAS all his fault.

STARCAT interesting that you have brought up what I have also been thinking about, the fact that Liz has this knowledge of the granolith that no one else has YET and I wonder when exactly SERENA shows up in town, is this way off, or just around the corner? I am not sure and how this will play out is anyone's guess.

After multiple viewings of EOTW eppy(my absolute fav of this season) I come back to FM saying, "ITS NOT JUST MAX THAT IS THE PROBLEM HERE, YOU ARE NOT LETTING YOURSELF CHANGE, NOW YOU HAVE TO DO SOMETHING" For some reason this line seems significant to me-as VAGUE as it is.

Has anyone else noticed that Liz NOW has two STAR OF DAVID's up on the wall in her bedroom, am I wrong, wasn't there only ONE last year, does this have some significance or not? Not sure.

Oh well cannot think of anything else right now but everyone keep plugging away we may solve this puzzle YET!!!!

Also, as far as the religion asspect are concerned, I have always loved how Chris Carter ties them into "X-Files." It would be fun to see them tied in here - and being a Christian, I have never heard anything that says you can't believe in aliens - in fact, a God of everything, as Christian, Jews and Muslims believe in - is a God of the entire universe, and aliens included. The more we see of the universe, etc. though Hubble telescope (ummm), the more I think aliens are possible - though not necessarily in the form we think of on TV.

Zero [/B][/QUOTE]
re:: the religious aspect.
The Catholic and Baptist religions have been know to dismiss life on other planets.Mainly becuase we look to the heavens to God. There are so many books and Movies written RE: Life on earth being started by aliens that we are thier decendants.The catholic and Baptist religions see beliving in aliens as a cult.They associate most people who belive in life on other planets( even if we dont belive we are their decendants)with that cult type following.
I know this is off topic and I am sorry.I was just replying to Zeros post.

Re: theory about Max & Michael coming back as shootists in pilot--I just can't accept this. I can't imagine that under any circumstance Max would ever hurt Liz. This is the guy who considered it unethical in SH to "use" Liz's visions to advance his own agenda (finding out more about the crash). No way would he hurt Liz.

Re: why did Nacedo rescue Liz from the mirror room in M2M. Could it be that Max had already met him in there and said I won't leave without her. We see later that Nacedo recognizes Max as leader even when he disagrees with him. Perhaps he accepted that Max had given him an order and was carrying it out.

Initially after the EOTH I was saddened to see the M/L split but encouraged with all the pointers in the show (Tess can't be you, you're the love of my life, there'll never be another you, and more). But now the depressions sets in. No more little M/L episodes to look forward to in the near future (though ultimately they will prevail). Surely Max will begin to wonder when Liz doesn't immediately start dating all the "normal" boys... I can't stand it!

Once again, you guys are all amazing. Love the numbers thing.

Chica

We saw a leaky pod in Summer of '47. We know that the granolith is in the pod chamber. We know that the granolith can be modified for time travel.

Since we know that the granolith is in the pod chamber, can we assume that it was placed there at the same time as the pods? If so, maybe Future Max wasn't the first to use it as a time machine.

We saw two guardian aliens, and I think it would be logical that each alien was responsible for protecting one set of pods. One guardian stayed around Roswell and was befriended and nicknamed Nasedo by River Dog. I believe Tic Tac might actually be Nasedo. The other guardian alien (Harding) took his set of pods and hid them elsewhere.

The guardian for the Roswell pods knew that the leaky pod wouldn't survive, so he took the baby out of the pod, took it into the future to 1983 (so that this baby would be 6 yrs. old at the same time as M,M,&I were engineered to hatch as 6 yr olds), and placed it for adoption with the Parkers.

GC could still come into play in this scenario. If the guardian encountered her in the area where he was hiding the pods, perhaps she agreed to help him. She could have been instrumental in getting Liz adopted by her own son.

This would also fit with the original "hatching" story that Max related to Liz in The Balance ep.---that there were only 3 hatchlings---Max, Michael, and Isabel.

Why did the pods have to gestate for 42 years? Maybe to allow for the alien essence and the human genetic material to be completely integrated? So although Liz could have the bride's essence, perhaps she wasn't in the pod long enough for that essence to "change" or "evolve" her body---hence the normal human blood cells from the Pilot.

Now for T***. (This is where I get bogged down, mainly because of the official WB blurb about ep. 8.) But if the second guardian (Harding) was in league with the evil aliens, it's possible that he created another hybrid(s) to replace the bride. Maybe T*** doesn't even know her true origins, since Harding raised her to believe she's actually the bride.

Or it could be that Harding isn't actually in league with the skins---maybe he just supported a political agenda that Max didn't agree with. Maybe Max married someone that Harding didn't agree with, and so he decided to replace her. I don't know---I'm confusing myself now!!

So, any takers?

I admit, my FM and FMi as shooters is a hard pill to swallow! First of all, those guys are so ugly. The only way I can believe it is to believe that they are also able to shapeshifter, something Tess said they can't do! (But you know how much I trust The Evil Shape Shifter!)

The reason why I hand on to it is because of shooter's statement to Maria, "No get out of here." And it's delivered so Michaelesque! Also, I'm sure you remember, but the shooters are sitting parralell to PM and PMi in the crashdown, like it's somesort of balancing going on. Also, maybe if FM and FMi are trying to get Max and Liz together by other means before resulting in this desperate situation of the shooting. There has to be a reason why Max and Liz have always been science lab partners. (The books really make a big deal on this.) We know that in TEOTW that changing time lines is hard to do. It takes something BIG to change the course of the future.

So Max will not open himself up to Liz, even though he loves her already unless something BIG happens. So, FM and FMi stage the shoot-out in the Crashdown Cafe. And it's at this point that the 2nd timeline starts. The 2nd timeline replacing the 1st timeline where Destiny was played out (M/T and Mi/I unions).

As for the Liz shooters: who benefits if Liz is out of the picture? If she died (they got rid of her), Max might be with Tess; but he is anyway. We need to figure out what would have happened if Liz had not been shot. Max would have still been in hiding, but what threat would an un-involved Liz present? What good would there have been in "getting rid of her"?

I'm confused. Is the idea of a specific attempt to kill Liz really necessary?

No, the idea is not necessary. However, ever since GraceKel pointed out the comment in the Pilot (we've got to get rid of her), many have us have been speculating as to what that comment meant. If the "her" doesn't refer to Liz, then who does it refer to? And if it does refer to Liz, then WHY do they want to get rid if her? Furthermore, who does the "we" in "we've" refer to? To the shooters specifically or to a larger sense of "we" as in a whole group of people/aliens?

Of course it is always possible that the comment was a blooper and made it into the episode by mistake. However, it just seems like that is an awfully big blooper. Maybe someone who knows more about TV production could give us some insight. Is it even possible that the producers, etc. overlooked this comment?

I have no answers just lots of questions

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elmindreda:
[b]Since we know that the granolith is in the pod chamber, can we assume that it was placed there at the same time as the pods? If so, maybe Future Max wasn't the first to use it as a time machine.

quote:Actually no. Since it is behind the pod incubators, it would have had to have been installed first. First by how long? Ah, that's the question! Perhaps the pods were set up in the Granolith Chamber, for lack of any better location. I still think the granolith is an FTL transporter, as that's the one thing that could be modified to work as a time machine. The Skins want it so that they can get back home. Remember, that Congresscritter Whiticker was near the end of the time she could spend here. Going somewhere else might save her life; a good enough reason to want the granolith!

Reggie---it's true that we don't know when the granolith was placed there. And I agree that it is definitely a source of immense power, and the skins want it either to travel home or to somehow rejuvenate themselves. But when the granolith was placed there doesn't really affect my speculation---that the guardian alien used it to take the baby bride (Liz) into the future to save her.

STARCAT interesting that you have brought up what I have also been thinking about, the fact that Liz has this knowledge of the granolith that no one else has YET and I wonder when exactly SERENA shows up in town, is this way off, or just around the corner? I am not sure and how this will play out is anyone's guess.

[/B]

GracveKel - My guess is that Serena wont show up for a few years. FM made it seem like she and Liz were going to be very good friends - and yet she was not included in the "wedding party". So I am not expecting her to show up for at least another season or two.

QFanny : It is always possible that Michael was a shooter but not Max. Michael definately has enough of a rebellious streak to have betrayed Max - or to have blamed Liz somehow. Michael has always seemed like a loose cannon to me - with alot of potential to really screw up.

About Christianity/Religion and Roswell. I am a Christian (in fact - my husband is a minister!) and while I personally do not believe in aliens - I do **love** Roswell. I think that we all have a part of our soul that recognizes and longs for a noble "bigger" cause. The battle between good and evil is very relevant and sci fi is a wonderful canvas on which to tell a story with alot of "cosmic" truth. I havent seen any rea; "religious" symbolism in Roswell - but the themes of rebirth, love, loyalty, courage and nobility and the strugggle with evil,betrayal and selfishness are all themes that relate to the "great story" we find in religion.

Reggie originally when I first started watching ROSWELL I thought what you thought that Max fell in love with a simple girl from a simple world-how romantic, but after my daughter discovered the "OKAY WE"VE GOT TO GET RID OF HER LINE" and the shooting seemed intentional not accidental well it got me to thinking there was a BIGGER story here than orginally met the eye, if you add little six year old Max getting off the bus and instantly sparking some kind of recognition(almost doing a double take with little Liz)-at least that is the way I interpreted it and her smiling back at him(these memories of course were buried in the subconscious memory--only to be unleashed because of that traumatic shooting)---Remember Max says "I KNOW YOU'RE THE ONE I AM SUPPOSE TO BE WITH, I'VE ALWAYS KNOWN IT" and "That day when you got shot, it was FATE" Now it sounds like Max was always attracted to Liz but did NOTHING about it after all he felt he had nothing to offer being otherworldly and all, but that fateful day set things in motion. Now I am not sure we were suppose to catch that clue about "we've got to get rid of her" that soon but it IS in there, and since it is how can it be so much of a coincidence, I mean 5 seconds after it is said Liz gets supposedly accidently shot????

I do agree that the comment to Maria to get out of the way was something that Michael would have said and it is very interesting that the shooters were sitting parallel to Michael and Max. However, get rid of her is a bad choice of words if they had hoped to start a positive chain of events by shooting Liz...

Starbox, you are probably right about SERENA I guess I was hoping for some more insight if this character shows up soon so I was rushing things in my mind but now that we have a FULL SEASON well I guess what is the rush right?

HUGGYBEHR I really like that Venus and the backwards spin thing what a terrific pickup you made there. Of course this is how we will ALL eventually solve the mystery of Roswell, providing the writers remain consistent with the story.

Starbox, did you get my response to your response I am not sure if it went through or not??? If it didn't I will have to post it again?

What if Tess was a decoy for the true Queen, Liz. Liz, the true Queen is so important to their mission that she traveled in a different ship at a different time to avoid the two powers (Max/Liz) being captured by their enemy.

Going along with the Run Lola Run speculations. It's been pondered that the FIRST Liz failed life involved a Liz that was never shot in the Crashdown. Well, I thought of a slightly simpler scenario (even though I like the "time travelling shooters" theory, it might not have anything to do with the RLR comparisons). It's often been pondered that Liz (to whatever extent) might have been part of Max's "past life"; what if the FIRST failed Liz life was in Max's past alien life (possibly not unlike Whitaker's RLR analogy)? I don't know, perhaps "past Liz" loved King Max (and he loved her), but she never said or did anything about it (or perhaps she knows she's Max's destiny but is kept from fulfilling it, because she's killed; to seal Tess' place on the throne? Ending Liz's first [failed] life). King Max marries Tess and seals the fates of the podsters alien selves. It was (past) Liz who was (King) Max's destiny all along, but this is discovered too late (and possibly only by a selected few). In order to rectify the situation, Past Liz is (secretly) sent to Earth along with Max (but is sent / raised differently from him. Possibly to protect her from those that were opposed to Liz/Max being together, to protect the *true destiny*?). Further, going along with the "altered Liz" theories, Liz slowly being changed might also be part of this covert plan? Slowly changing her into one of the podsters and/or their equivalent, but no one knows this (not even Liz herself). Hence, Liz is (gradually) "being made" to fulfill a destiny with Max, while still keeping it all a secret (a destiny which she'd seem ready to fulfill due to her apparent willingness to *die for* Max EOTW?). Kind of grandious, I know, my imagination always gets crazier when I sleep in!

Melodious

Of course it is always possible that the comment was a blooper and made it into the episode by mistake. However, it just seems like that is an awfully big blooper. Maybe someone who knows more about TV production could give us some insight. Is it even possible that the producers, etc. overlooked this comment?

I have no answers just lots of questions

Well Rosfan, I'm not a Hollywood producer but I have done a bit of television production in my day. Specifically editing of television productions. My guess is that it isn't a blooper. I don't necessarily believe that the shooters were refering to Liz when the said "We have to get rid of her". It could be just part of the dialog the writers put in there to make sure the viewers understood that the two men were having a fight.

I have never been convinced that the "We have to get rid of her" line was meant for Liz, let alone any main character on the show.
Although, it is possible that the line wasn't just setting up the fight scene. Instead it could indeed have been a line meant for Liz. WE SHALL SEE!!!!!

I will watch the Pilot again to see what I think about it after viewing it again. Then if I have anything to add I will later.

One thing is for sure, if they didn't want the line in there then it could have easily been taken out. However, I think the line was supposed to be in there to indicate that the two men were arguing/fighting. Whether the line was meant for Liz, I don't know yet.

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!! ALWAYS!

Melodious[/B]

NO Melodious-it's not crazy! I have thought of this also. It is very similar to the original theory I posted on my take of Liz being an alien. Even though I am not actually convinced that she is an alien myself. But if she is, then I think it would have been something like your theory says, that had led to the current situation.

Here's mine(the one I finally decided to post although I have thought of yours to. The whole "Liz was the original love, maybe even Queen, for Max but then she died and then Tess succeeded her" theory.): quote:Originally posted by SweetJo:
In the 13th Thread, someone said they would hate it if Liz was a hybrid. They thought it wouldn't be as romantic because Max and Liz would not be starcrossed lovers anymore.

I am still not sold on the theory that Liz is a hybrid either. However, since it seems possible this is what I think about it:

Well, just because they wouldn't be a human and an alien anymore doesn't mean they aren't star crossed lovers.
I had always thought that if Liz was like the podsters, then Max and Liz could have originally been in love on their planet but forbidden to be together. Hence, the young bride, "TESS", not ever being someone Max really loved. On their planet Max could have been forced to marry someone of status for political reasons, TESS. Meanwhile Max loved another. Obviously someone considered simple by the rest of the royals' standards. Someone too simple to be a great Queen in their eyes, this being Liz.

However, turns out Liz isn't simple, she is powerful. After she realizes that they sent the royal four to earth and that she is powerful enough to help protect them, she finds someone to engineer a hybrid of herself to send to earth. She literally follows her true love beyond death. (Kinda like Dracula)
This would also fit the fact that Liz always comes up with great plans to help protect the podsters.

See, it could still easily be a story of two lovers doomed to be apart but still struggling to be together. AND STILL MANAGING TO BE TOGETHER!

Just thought I would present my take. WHAT DO YA THINK?

See your theory isn't that crazy. It makes sense to me too. Of course I guess I could be crazy!!!!!

I mainly subscribe to the FIFTH ELEMENT/VENUS theory in which Liz doesn't necessarily have to be an alien. But she could be. So we'll see!!

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

I'm going to tread on the dark side by bringing up this question again. Why didn't Future Max just go back to the shooting and stop the healing if he wanted to avert the future caused by him being with Liz?

Liz suggested it herself in Destiny, "I wish I could go back and stop you from saving my life that day in the Crashdown." That was before we knew it was possible, but now that we know it is...

Do we know for sure that Liz is a help or a hindrance to Max's destiny? And if Liz's relationship with Max will ultimately bring about the end of the world, should such drastic options be considered?

Didn't that Spanish love song Max sang, include the phrase that "your love will kill me"?

Liz could just as easily be an EA plot to foil the podster's mission.

I really want someone to convince me that this will never happen.

My imagination is sparked reading some of these "5th element" ideas and the possibility of "three" (or several) alien factions existing. What if Liz (if she's at all alien, and I'm hoping she isn't, but I'm still going to play with the theory) is somehow part of an alien faction that originally 'held the claim' on Twilo? The Liz faction (to save confusion) is conquered by the Podian faction. Of course, what goes around comes around, Podian faction is eventually overthrown by the Skin faction.

In an attempt to restore "balance" amongst the factions... some (peaceful) members of all three factions unite and send selected, important (young) royals - Max/Mi/Is/Tess & Liz - in an attempt to eventually bring an end to the conflict on Twilo? Some don't want peace hence the podsters are targeted (not only by Skins, but also possibly by Podians and this unknown first faction)? Liz, however, (going along with Sydnee's idea just mentioned above, an idea often pondered amongst several of us) is so important in the "balance" they have to send/raise her seperately (to protect her)? Knowing that Max would recognize her anyway (possibly including my above RLR theory, SweetJo's or any others pondered, but who knows)? So important, "royal five" is never mentioned, they only refer to M/Mi/I/T.

The Skins possibly know there are *five* (hence five pie slices on the alien beeper things?), but haven't mentioned it because:
A) They realize she's very important and the podsters don't know about her (and Skins aren't about to inform them
B) They know there's a fifth, but don't know who/where s/he is yet and don't realize s/he is also a "royal".

Possibly being broken up as such...

Podians:
(King) Max
(Princess) Isabel

Skins:
(Prince) Michael
(Princess) Tess

Unknown first faction (Orig. Twilonians):
(Queen) Liz [heir to the throne]

Unorthodox I suppose, but I'm amused by this theory in that it would mean that LIZ would apparently be the true heir to the Twilonian throne, and NOT Max. In EOTW alone, Liz seemed to prove herself more of a leader than Max (and EOTW isn't a sheltered circumstance either, Liz often proves herself "leadership material"; superpowers aside). Future Max's hands were tied, it was Liz (as well as Future Liz) seemingly doing all the work. FMax was basically a 'drill sergeant' thru the ep.

Although I didn't get much of a trinity vibe from Momogram, it seemed Mom was being rather "podiancentric", perhaps I need to watch "Destiny" again. Could be a possibility?

Or maybe the "skin faction" was the "Liz faction" regrouped? So maybe the Skins are just taking back what was/is rightfully theirs (the Granilith)? I've often pondered on the rights/wrongs of this Podian/Skin conflict... could they both have equal rights to Twilo. Could one faction be the rightful inhabitants of this planet and the others the usurpers?

Melodious

What if Tess was a decoy for the true Queen, Liz. Liz, the true Queen is so important to their mission that she traveled in a different ship at a different time to avoid the two powers (Max/Liz) being captured by their enemy.

I have been thinking this for quite some time. Star Wars Episode One used this method as well.

I apologize for the two posts below... this board behaves so strangely sometimes...

Melodious - interesting theory about the three factions. I am a little frustrated at just how LITTLE we have been told - and how most of what we know comes from "questionable" sources (Harding, Tess, Whittaker).
I keep trying to remind myself to go back to what M/M/I and Liz have said/felt and to trust their "instinct" above all else.
So - for example - Max and Isabel feel that they are siblings - so I will say that that bit of "revelation" is probably true.

I do think we are on to something major with the "fifth element". And the fact that the little EA signal beepers have five parts HAS to mean something.
The question is - is Tess one of the "four" elements?? If she is an imposter (which remains a very real possibility thanks to our lovely leaky pod) then will the four/five symbolism still hold??
I think it will - because the five can be the force in the middle holding them together. "LOVE" would work in this case - it could also be that the "fifth element" is created when Max and Liz are joined.

Oh - I looked up roses in my symbolism dictionary and anyone care to guess what number they are associated with????????

And if you guessed FIVE you would be correct!
Why? because roses symbolize (as well as love) rebirth and the beginning of a new cycle. (Works nicely with run Lola Run - the idea of beginning a new cycle) Five is also the number of fulfillement. Therefore in most archetypal images - roses are drawn in groups of FIVE or shown with FIVE leaves.

IF the shooting of Liz was an attempt by the EAs to remove her from the picture, why have they not tried again? Surely, if it is that important to them, they would not have simply given up?

Something else now bothers me. In EOTW. Liz learns that Tess leaves when Max and herself become inseperable. How can there be an M/L reunion if she now believes that such an event will drive Tess away and result in The End Of The World?

WR

So far, I cannot recall seeing one of those 'bleeper' things in the hands of ANY Skin. Maybe Brody is more than he says.

Does anyone have ( or have we ever been given/shown ) dates for the finding of the Orb by Liz/Max, and the night of the Gomez concert in EOTW?

WR

Something else now bothers me. In EOTW. Liz learns that Tess leaves when Max and herself become inseperable. How can there be an M/L reunion if she now believes that such an event will drive Tess away and result in The End Of The World?

WR[/B]

WR - at the end of EOTW Max tells Liz that they create their own destiny - the future is totally open and that they may end up together. He NEVER says that Max and Tess have to get together romantically (so much for the "mating" book) - or that he and Liz can not be together - just that the timing of THAT moment is critical. That they cant have sex and/or Tess couldnt leave RIGHT THEN.

Also - as for Max returning to an earlier time (before the shooting) - I think that he did not want to (or need to) keep Max and Liz apart forever - in fact - Liz may be (okay I say she IS) CRITICAL to their future survival. He just needed to keep them from having sex at that specific moment in time.

And remember - what he said about Tess needing to balance their powers may or MAY NOT be true. Remember Future Max never kissed Liz (perhaps to purposefully keep her from having a revealing "flash") or gave her any real information about the rebellion. FM could have had to "say anything" to Liz to get her to do what had to be done - just as Liz had to "say anything" to Max to keep him from pursuing her AT THAT MOMENT.
I think the fact that FM did not give her ANY useful information about the rebellion or evil aliens (like who their leader was, what their goal and plan of attack was, etc) is very suspicious. I think he COULDNT tell her - because it would have revealed information that she could NOT know yet (that she has powers, that Tess is an imposter).

Her is not Liz: Her is someone else. I am assuming someone that Max gets involved with, possibly TESS, but maybe not. The only way Max would have ever opened up to Liz was for something big to happen. His thought about telling her over a thousand times, right? So why doesn't he? He seems pretty convinced that he would never tell Liz about his love for her and that he's an alien.

Although shooting Liz maybe a little extreme, (OK- pretty damn extreme) Liz had to go to an equal extreme to get Max to fall out of love with her.

Granted, I am not asking you to "believe" this theory, but if we are looking for motivation to why Liz was shoot, we must consider what would happen if she had been never shoot!

Perhaps Nasedo and Tess would have showed up, and gain control over Max. (Liz has control over Max to some degrees. Maybe that is why she is useful to Nasedo in MttM.)

WR

It is around Feb 21st that they found the orbs. I can say this with "Roswellian" certainity because it happened after BD (Feb 14th) and (ID) which seemed to take a week to entirely play out. The opening scene to SH shows the radio tower with the key of "February 2000-Lincoln County" So late Feb is a good guess on the dates of the orb location.

As far as the dates of TEOTW, I think it is suppose to be right around Halloween. There is a paper skeleton hanging on Courtney's front door. The type you buy for Halloween house decor. So prior to Halloween is also a good bet. Because Max says the Gomez concert is on Friday, I am guessing that the events occured the week prior to Halloween.

Does everyone agree?

My imagination is sparked reading some of these "5th element" ideas and the possibility of "three" (or several) alien factions existing.

The Skins possibly know there are *five* (hence five pie slices on the alien beeper things?), but haven't mentioned it because:
A) They realize she's very important and the podsters don't know about her (and Skins aren't about to inform them
B) They know there's a fifth, but don't know who/where s/he is yet and don't realize s/he is also a "royal".

Possibly being broken up as such...

Podians:
(King) Max
(Princess) Isabel

Skins:
(Prince) Michael
(Princess) Tess

Unknown first faction (Orig. Twilonians):
(Queen) Liz [heir to the throne]

Unorthodox I suppose, but I'm amused by this theory in that it would mean that LIZ would apparently be the true heir to the Twilonian throne, and NOT Max. In EOTW alone, Liz seemed to prove herself more of a leader than Max (and EOTW isn't a sheltered circumstance either, Liz often proves herself "leadership material"; superpowers aside). Future Max's hands were tied, it was Liz (as well as Future Liz) seemingly doing all the work. FMax was basically a 'drill sergeant' thru the ep.

Although I didn't get much of a trinity vibe from Momogram, it seemed Mom was being rather "podiancentric", perhaps I need to watch "Destiny" again. Could be a possibility?

Or maybe the "skin faction" was the "Liz faction" regrouped? So maybe the Skins are just taking back what was/is rightfully theirs (the Granilith)? I've often pondered on the rights/wrongs of this Podian/Skin conflict... could they both have equal rights to Twilo. Could one faction be the rightful inhabitants of this planet and the others the usurpers?

Melodious

I like this Melodious! At 1st I was thinking, "WHAT??" But then I thought, "well, if the 'three different factions of aliens' theories that have been thrown around on here are correct in their assumptions, then that would fit the themes of our(me, you-Melodious1,Syndee's theories,etc.) other theories very well."

Except I am not sure about Liz being still. Oh well, like I said before "we shall see".

Hum, craziness is fun

Gotta go, I have to read through 14 books so I can write a 20 page paper on Developmental Psychology by 11/16/00. Yep I'm crazy and my major is Psychology. Go figure!

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!! ALWAYS!

Agents you guys have your work cut out!

Yes "Liz" is very important to the aliens!

DeeDee

I have never been convinced that the "We have to get rid of her" line was meant for Liz, let alone any main character on the show.
Although, it is possible that the line wasn't just setting up the fight scene. Instead it could indeed have been a line meant for Liz. WE SHALL SEE!!!!!

I will watch the Pilot again to see what I think about it after viewing it again. Then if I have anything to add I will later.

One thing is for sure, if they didn't want the line in there then it could have easily been taken out. However, I think the line was supposed to be in there to indicate that the two men were arguing/fighting. Whether the line was meant for Liz, I don't know yet.

SweetJo,
We LOVE folk's who can clue us in on these technical things (right, Qfanny? ).

I have a very puny TV, and my tape of the Pilot was made during poor reception, so I am asking this of anyone: Was the "we've got to get rid of her" line noticed by anyone (besides GraceKel's daughter) without first having someone tell you to listen for it? It was very clear to me once I did locate it, but it seems like it could have slipped past the editors. STILL, why would a line like that be shouted on the shooting set if it wasn't in the script? And speaking of scripts, does anyone have the original? Was such a line in there? I haven't puzzled this much over something since spinning the Beatles Rubber Soul album backwards to hear "Number Nine" become "Turn me on, dead man."

Anyway, SweetJo, we discussed briefly a few pages back the possibility of "her" in "we've got to get rid of her" being Tess. I can imagine the shooters being Nasedo and Tictac with slightly different means towards the same ultimate goal--whatever that may be.

I KNOW this has been brought up before, but I also believe roses are an important symbol if you like those theories (comparisons) of "Liz/Virgin Mary". Don't *several* of the miracles associated with the Virgin Mary often have direct corrolation with roses? Rose petals raining from the sky etc.

I think of Juan Diego miracle/myth in particular. Juan Diego whose visions of the Virgin Mary inspired Mexicans to build the first Basilica de la Virgen de Guadalupe in Mexico City. Roses were a prominent staple in that particular miracle/myth.

You can learn more about Juan Diego (and 'the sighting') here:
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/ldumois/ldguadalupe.html

Melodious

Glad to see another television production survivor. I hope your experience was more profitable than mine. Oh, but what fun it was! I'll have to tell you about my clowncedo story if we ever meet.

My technical opinion of the "We got to get rid of her," concurs with yours. I think that the editor may have found this glimmer of dialog on a different tape or scene myself.

There seems to be two different conversations going on. The statement really stands out. I have listen to the opening sequence of pilot more times than I can count. The fact that the statement is heard as the picture is handed over can be no accident! I think the editor put it there on purpose. (I do not think this was specifically scripted in the Pilot episode, but was found and used!)

Do you agree?

shapeshifter

See my above post. I don't know if anyone would have scripted the background conversation. It is more likely the actors were told to improvise and given a context-situation to build up to. "I want the money now!"

I think that this opening scene actually took a long time to shoot (maybe not). But this is not a play. The actor doesn't have to say, "We have to get rid of her." exactly on cue. I really think the editor put the line there and that it was never actually scripted. It would be a remarkable coincedence if the background conversation was not edited at that point.

Also, Revolation number 9 is not on the Rubber Soul album, it is on the White Album as is the track to Rocky Raccoon! Did Kyle fulfill the lyrics to this song. I forget that entire conversation now.

I have a very puny TV, and my tape of the Pilot was made during poor reception, so I am asking this of anyone: Was the "we've got to get rid of her" line noticed by anyone (besides GraceKel's daughter) without first having someone tell you to listen for it? It was very clear to me once I did locate it, but it seems like it could have slipped past the editors. STILL, why would a line like that be shouted on the shooting set if it wasn't in the script?
I did have to be told to listen for it on one of these threads before I realized it was there and that it could relate to Liz. However, there's no way for me to remember but I am sure I heard it the first time I saw the Pilot. I just didn't take note of it because it just seems to be part of the shooters arguement that the writers wanted us to notice.

I am 99% sure that no one would have ever just shouted that on set w/o someone noticing. I believe it was meant to be in the dialog.
About it slipping past the editors--I don't think so. I don't know about the Hollywood big wig editors out there but I seriously doubt the could have missed it. I sure wouldn't have if I had been editing it.

When one edits something they literally have knowledge and control of everything on the tape. They can change a scene to edit out audio and even insert new audio into a scene w/o ever altering the video(film, whichever) portion that they originally shot.

It's like this--there are 2 audio tracks and 1 video track on SVHS(which is professional VHS-what I have worked with). So, one can edit each track separately in essence(it's more complicated than that but even I don't understand that much of it).

Plus what I do know from what I have heard Hollywood editors do in the process of coming up with a FINAL CUT of the TV eppy,
they do actually take the audio tracks separately and edit through them and then filter through the audio track to get rid of all excess "accidental" noise. So I don't think they accidently left the line in there.

Plus, it is hard enough as is to even get could enough audio of the dialog in the first place sometimes. In which case they have to go back and do a voice over. My point here is, they must have wanted the line in there because they made sure it got picked up on the audio track in the first place.

So I think the line was intentional. BUT NOT NECESSARILY MEANT FOR LIZ OR ANYONE ELSE, MAYBE JUST A LINE TO INDICATE AN ARGUEMENT BREWING. Don't know

quote:ORIGINALLY POSTED BY SHAPESHIFTER:And speaking of scripts, does anyone have the original? Was such a line in there?
Nope. Sure wish I did. ANYONE?????

quote:POSTED BY SHAPESHIFTER:Anyway, SweetJo, we discussed briefly a few pages back the possibility of "her" in "we've got to get rid of her" being Tess. I can imagine the shooters being Nasedo and Tictac with slightly different means towards the same ultimate goal--whatever that may be.

Who knows that's possible also! At least I can see it being true.

Gotta go read now, bye!
I'll check back later.

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

"His rival it seems had broken his dreams
By stealing the girl of his fancy.
Her name was Magill and she called herself Lill
But everyone knew her as Nancy [or Liz, but not Qfanny or shapeshifter ].
Now she and her man who called himself Dan [read "Kyle"]
Were in the next room at the hoe down.
Rocky bust in and grinning a grin.
He said Danny boy this is a showdown
But Daniel was hot – he drew first and shot
And Rocky collapsed in the corner."

For newbies, go read the transcript to ITW.

And how could I forget how the title White Album fits in with White Room?

It's like this--there are 2 audio tracks and 1 video track on SVHS(which is professional VHS-what I have worked with). So, one can edit each track separately in essence(it's more complicated than that but even I don't understand that much of it).

Plus what I do know from what I have heard Hollywood editors do in the process of coming up with a FINAL CUT of the TV eppy,
they do actually take the audio tracks separately and edit through them and then filter through the audio track to get rid of all excess "accidental" noise. So I don't think they accidently left the line in there.

Ok, I agree with you but I have some comments on this.

1) The editor does not have control over the show just because he puts the project into the final version. Many people think that scenes can be "cleaned-up" in post when there is something that went wrong. This makes the editor's job difficult if the director is trying to use the post production to cover holes in the pre-production planning and production processes. I know from editing my final project, that the editor can only use what they have.

The control over the show belongs to the director/producer. And the director and editor should be working closely together to prevent obvious holes and bloopers.

2) I don't think Roswell is shoot on Video Tape. I think they use film, as any good television production would. Film produces better color, giving more depths and dimensions. And editing of film is an a different process than assemble or insert editing. I think there is only one channel for audio on film. (But I do not know film that well, my experience is in videotape.)

3) You are absolutely right about them mixing and tweaking the audio. This is something I never got to into, but what you said made perfect sense to me.

I think we agree, although it sounds to me like you have more experience with this type of editing. I've used some older models of analog editing, ranging from the Chyron 2000 character generator to the Pinnacle systems.

Anyway, I think that the line was intended to be in the final cut, but I don't think that it was scripted specifically. It was something that the editor put together, perhaps using many different sources to make a whole.

Just reviewed Pilot shooting scene--IMHO, the line "WE GOT TO GET RID OF HER" was meant to be in the show. It is not on the captions however. I am 99.9% sure because I noticed there is lots of background chatter heard before that line. However, none of the background chatter is clear, none of it stands out. The line was intentional, I conclude.

Still don't know if they meant Liz, like I have said many times before.

Gotta go really this time! Talk to you guys later, bye!

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!! ALWAYS!

You've quoted one of my famous funny typos. I think I meant Revolution #9! Not Revelation #9! Gee, talk about getting something mixed up!

If all FMax needed to do was to prevent Liz and Max having sex, then surely that was all he had to ask Liz to prevent. He asked her to "make me fall out of love with you." He said that Tess left town, and without her powers, they were out of balance.

True, he says the future is open, but think about it from Liz's POV. FMax has told her they cannot be together, or Tess will Leave. If Tess leaves, they are out of Balance. This may not be what the scriptwriters intended, but this is definately how I interpreted the dialog.

WR

Glad to see another television production survivor. I hope your experience was more profitable than mine. Oh, but what fun it was! I'll have to tell you about my clowncedo story if we ever meet.

My technical opinion of the "We got to get rid of her," concurs with yours. I think that the editor may have found this glimmer of dialog on a different tape or scene myself.

There seems to be two different conversations going on. The statement really stands out. I have listen to the opening sequence of pilot more times than I can count. The fact that the statement is heard as the picture is handed over can be no accident! I think the editor put it there on purpose. (I do not think this was specifically scripted in the Pilot episode, but was found and used!)

Do you agree?

Yes, I thought maybe that was the case also. But I didn't bother to say it because I thought it may be even more confusing if I did. But obviously you can totally relate to this speculation. Even if it was a last minute "put it in or leave it out" decision, I do believe Jason Katims must have been toying with a line like that but wasn't sure if it fit. Then, they decided it would and left it in and probably figured no one would read into it. At least that if I am right and it was intended to indicate an arguement only.

It sure would be interesting if it were more than just that though!

Also QFanny-can't wait to hear the Clowncedo story. My experience in TV is limited. I was in a 2 yr. TV/Radio productions vocational. It was fun!! I loved it so much. Then I majored in Psych when I got to college because I thought it would be the safer career choice. But now I don't care anymore. I realized in the past 3 years that my heart is in Motion Picture/Television production. So, now I am planning to go to Graduate school in Film Production. God willing, if I can afford to now. I will find a way though.

AH! I can't get off of here to read those DEVE. PSY. books! I am so bad!

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

Ok, I agree with you but I have some comments on this.

I think we agree, although it sounds to me like you have more experience with this type of editing. I've used some older models of analog editing, ranging from the Chyron 2000 character generator to the Pinnacle systems.

Anyway, I think that the line was intended to be in the final cut, but I don't think that it was scripted specifically. It was something that the editor put together, perhaps using many different sources to make a whole.

Yes, agreed on all 3 of your points I just didn't go into all of that.
You're right I don't know about film. So I really don't know either if there is an A1 and A2 or not. But I don't think it makes a difference regarding our thoughts on this.

I've worked in SVHS mainly. NO Film yet. Just Linear(analog, I'm sure you know that) and some Nonlinear editing on an AVID.

See I can't get off of here! Bad, Bad girl!

SweetJo

Second, I have a question that has been bothering me since last season. You all may very well have discussed this before but maybe you can humor me and discuss it again. In TLV, Mr. Harding/Nasedo says that the reason that armed soldiers were helping him move in was because he was a civilian consultant. Now we have two options. We can either take that comment as the truth or Harding was lying for whatever reason.
1) If Harding is telling the truth, don't civilian workers have to have some kind of security clearance? Wouldn't he have had to go through a physical (big problem for an alien) and have his fingerprints cleared (not a problem for a shapeshifter)? Also, isn't it possible that as a civilian consultant, he would have had to go through the bone scan thing in the course of his job? Finally, do civilian consultants really get armed guards to help them move in? Too many questions!
2) Harding was lying (and this is what I believe to be the case). If so, how come armed soldiers were at his house? If Harding is lying, then why, what is he hiding?

Here is what I am speculating: I think that Harding was one of the aliens that was captured and studied by the government. For whatever reason (maybe evil aliens had infiltrated the government), the gov. tells Harding it will release him only if he does their bidding. Maybe he is like a double agent, spying on our Pod Squad.

You don't have to agree with my speculation but please give some insight into whether or not you think Harding was lying about his profession.

True, he says the future is open, but think about it from Liz's POV. FMax has told her they cannot be together, or Tess will Leave. If Tess leaves, they are out of Balance. This may not be what the scriptwriters intended, but this is definately how I interpreted the dialog.

WR

WR - I respectfully agree to disagree :-)
I dont think FM could have simply said "hey - dont have sex with me" - because - as Liz said - she had NO INTENTION of having sex. Evidently - for them to have been in the same place at the same time - things would have escalated. (My planetary alignment theory again <vbg> ) The ONLY way to ensure this would not happen was to either 1) divert Max to Tess (which was why FM gave her the "help me fall out of love with you, push me to Tess speech" OR 2) have Liz "change" - and "fall from grace" in Max's eyes.

I dont think FM ever implied that if he and Liz got together in the future - that Tess would leave. It was the cementing of the relationship at that moment. In fact - he clearly stated that the timing of THIS moment is critical and once the future had changed it was totally open for us all to create our own destinies. I think the fact that he never said that he and Tess neeeded to be romantically involved and that he never said that Liz and he couldnt be together (once the future had been changed) - would be very liberating for Liz and would make her feel better because now she knows that the only "destiny" is the one they create themselves.

Imagine this scenario - Tess is an imposter - Liz is the authentic "destiny" - when she and Max have sex - this gets revealed. How do they treat Tess? Her cover is blown - she leaves town and the EA launch a full out attack now that they have discovered what they have been covertly searching for - the "fifth element" of Liz.
Now - FM couldnt tell Liz ANY of this. All he could do was say - "push me towards Tess, keep me away from you right now". Without an obstacle like Tess - nothing would have kept them apart - and without feeling like she HAD to push Max towards Tess to save him - she never would have.
All I am saying is that after EOTW we all seem to have bought into the idea that Tess is authentic - and I think there is still way too much conflicting evidence and way too many unknowns to make that decision just yet.

You don't have to agree with my speculation but please give some insight into whether or not you think Harding was lying about his profession.[/B]

Rosfan - GREAT insights! You have some very good points and - I think - very good reason to doubt Harding/Nasedo's intention. And - if we have reason to doubt Harding - we have reason to doubt Tess.
One thing I have been wondering - why was Harding killed? And was he really killed - or was that a decoy? How much is/was he working with the EA?? I think that Sof47 pretty well established that the EA may have infiltrated the military - so was Harding's "cover" a coincidence? Also - he had a HUGE box of pictures of Max - he must have been spying on him for a LONG time - but where has Tess been?? She says in White Room that Harding "has never left her before". So someone is lying there.

And - just for another creepy insight in to the evil harding theory. Remember in Max to the Max when he disguised himeslf as a clown?? I was looking up the symbolisim of"Cliff" - because of the pod chamber's location and I ran across this lovely tidbit:

Clown - a clown traditionally represents the MURDERED KING.

I am spoiled. I managed to resist last year, but am weak this season! BUT none of my theories incorporate anything I'm spoiled about. I steer clear of that because spoilers don't always come true and I love that all our theories have been open to everyone to enjoy and add in on because they are based on what everyone has seen! Keeping this thread spoiler-free has been very important to us all - though it may seem weird as some of our theories may turn out to be accurate - but only time and new episodes will tell!

Zero

Oh gosh. I hope my post did not come across as rude. I never intended that.

The only problem that I have really, is that I believe Liz will now be afraid of a relationship with Max, due to the Tess being pushed away thing. I guess we shall see.

Much of what you say is very good. (OK, more than Much!)

Regarding your alignment theory, which was the reason I asked about the dates (Thanks for the response QFanny). I calculate that between finding the Orb, and the Gomez concert to be approx 245 days. I believe that Venus orbits the Sun in 225 days. How many days does it take for the Earth and Venus to be in alignment. 1 Venus day = 243 Earth days.

BTW - Useless facts time: Future Max fights a thousand battles. That's 1 battle every 5.1 days.

WR

Oh gosh. I hope my post did not come across as rude. I never intended that.

The only problem that I have really, is that I believe Liz will now be afraid of a relationship with Max, due to the Tess being pushed away thing. I guess we shall see.

Much of what you say is very good. (OK, more than Much!)

Regarding your alignment theory, which was the reason I asked about the dates (Thanks for the response QFanny). I calculate that between finding the Orb, and the Gomez concert to be approx 245 days. I believe that Venus orbits the Sun in 225 days. How many days does it take for the Earth and Venus to be in alignment. 1 Venus day = 243 Earth days.

BTW - Useless facts time: Future Max fights a thousand battles. That's 1 battle every 5.1 days.

WR

LOL! You werent rude at all - its just my poor little dreamer heart being defensive!!!
THe WILL be together DANG IT!!!!!!!!!!
:-) :-) :-) :-) :-)

And awesome, AWESOME research on the Venus orbiting the sun thing - WOW! I cant believe the timing would actually correspond that well. So now - another 200-some days and as long as they are in the same place at the same time.......................... <wink wink nudge nudge>
I am telling ya'll - its an alignment thing.

When I first started this thread - ages ago - it was for this very reason! At first I thought that Liz was just a girl Max fell in love with, but than the vision of very young Max staring at very young Liz, long before even meeting her in 3rd grade, started haunting me. I kept thinking there had to be more to it than just a "crush," but I had no one to discuss my thoughts with about it. So, I started this thread, and have been amazed at the wonderful clues people have come across and theories developed! The clues have been too numerous for me to believe this is simple a case of alien boy meets other small-town girl and falls in love. The whole soulmate, etc. thing speaks to something more than that.

And - as far as Liz's importance - what would have happened if Liz was gone - well ... she has (since the shooting and becoming part of the gang) been instrumental in solving many of the problems that have arisen for the podsters (that Intelligence factor!) - and without her, well ... Plus, I really like the 5th element theory, which that alone would make her essential to the podsters success!

Zero

Going along with the [b]Run Lola Run speculations. It's been pondered that the FIRST Liz failed life involved a Liz that was never shot in the Crashdown. Well, I thought of a slightly simpler scenario (even though I like the "time travelling shooters" theory, it might not have anything to do with the RLR comparisons). It's often been pondered that Liz (to whatever extent) might have been part of Max's "past life"; what if the FIRST failed Liz life was in Max's past alien life (possibly not unlike Whitaker's RLR analogy)? I don't know, perhaps "past Liz" loved King Max (and he loved her), but she never said or did anything about it (or perhaps she knows she's Max's destiny but is kept from fulfilling it, because she's killed; to seal Tess' place on the throne? Ending Liz's first [failed] life). King Max marries Tess and seals the fates of the podsters alien selves. It was (past) Liz who was (King) Max's destiny all along, but this is discovered too late (and possibly only by a selected few). In order to rectify the situation, Past Liz is (secretly) sent to Earth along with Max (but is sent / raised differently from him. Possibly to protect her from those that were opposed to Liz/Max being together, to protect the *true destiny*?). Further, going along with the "altered Liz" theories, Liz slowly being changed might also be part of this covert plan? Slowly changing her into one of the podsters and/or their equivalent, but no one knows this (not even Liz herself). Hence, Liz is (gradually) "being made" to fulfill a destiny with Max, while still keeping it all a secret (a destiny which she'd seem ready to fulfill due to her apparent willingness to *die for* Max EOTW?). Kind of grandious, I know, my imagination always gets crazier when I sleep in!

Melodious[B]

To take this thought a bit further - what if Liz was important to Max in their previous lives, but due to social whatevers, Max had to marry Tess - but Liz was the wise advisor that he truly loved. Say after the royal four were killed, it was Liz who was instrumental in devising the cloning process to send them in human form to Earth. Later, she too was sent to be raised as a human without her pass knowledge - just the continuing characteristic that she is a brain who loves science and solving problems. When Max sees her, he recognizes his true love, though not sure why.... Okay, this is far fetched, and I don't know if I buy it (I still like the Earth prophecy that Liz is a chosen one to help protect the Earth), but I just wanted to put it out there.

Also, I think the Granolith (Sp?) was installed (along with the pod holders) before the crash and pods were placed. Maybe it had already been prepared, and the ship that crashed was the transport only for the pods.

Zero

...Second...Here is what I am speculating: I think that Harding was one of the aliens that was captured and studied by the government. For whatever reason (maybe evil aliens had infiltrated the government), the gov. tells Harding it will release him only if he does their bidding. Maybe he is like a double agent, spying on our Pod Squad.....
Rosfan, It seems I only gave one sentence to this theory at the archive site, and that's only under Theories of 2 Shapeshifters at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/tictac.htm . I will update the Nasedo as an Evil Alien Page ( http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/nasedo.htm ) even though this theory doesn't really make him "evil," just kind of untrustworthy. It was one of my fav theories.

And thanks from me too to SweetJo & Qfanny for the explantions. I just rewatched Pilot and am sure the connection he made with her was not necessary for the healing--it was for the, well, "connection," that he desperately wanted to make. In the books, the connection would have been necessary for the healing, and, yes, the Pilot was based on the book, but we've moved on and I think it's safe to say Max was just desperate to connect with Liz.

Oh, and how about "we've got to get rid of her" referring to someone's (my daughter's?) cat. J/K.

I'm going to tread on the dark side by bringing up this question again. Why didn't Future Max just go back to the shooting and stop the healing if he wanted to avert the future caused by him being with Liz?

I wonder this - but figure that FM knows that Liz is essential to the success of the podsters, and that keeping Tess around is the element that has to be changed, and Liz and Max's intimate relationship is what is the final nail in the coffin for Tess at that point in time - if that doesn't happen, than Tess stays around to be useful at a crucial time - but that overall Liz's involvement is as important, if not more, than Tess!

Zero

WR---you asked why didn't they try to kill Liz again if that be the case, well I have thought about this myself and the only thing I can come up with is that they decided to put planB into action instead which is to subvert, divide and conquer--by now they have figured out that these aliens are clueless about their own history and future aspirations so PLANB has been implemented instead---that of course is just my theory but who knows for sure.
Also I too have worried that Liz will always feel like she can never be with Max because Tess will leave Roswell and we will have the end of the world fate-----I hate to say this but I think this is INTENTIONAL---it is a HUGE OBSTACLE for our DREAM COUPLE something they can pull out whenever needed, although like Starbox said FM said the future is open but I see what you were thinking because I have been wondering the same thing----I think they decided to take the ANGST out of the SHOW and give the ANGST to the FANS LOL!!!!

Shapeshifter----YES I swear ROCKY is KYLE's story all the way----very uncanny isn't it?
I still am wondering about KYLE---no one else seems to have any suspicions about KYLE but I swear he came back off that BUS different? And all those BUDDHA passages????

WR-one more thing you asked about the date of the orb finding---it has to be FEB 21, 2000 because at the beginning of SEXUAL HEALING Liz says, "Its Feb 20th, I am Liz Parker and lately I've been having these feelings........"-----IN UFO CONVENTION eppy Max sets the clock which is just below the word or above the word VENUS to 2:20 FEB 20th VENUS????? I thought this was a great clue find but no one else has thought much of it LOL!!!! LIZ is VENUS---she is TOP V-----now does this mean SHE is VILLANDRA not sure but I think it is possible.

Melodius1 nice theories, I admire anyone who can come up with a complete theory like that, I always run up against inconsistencies where I cannot make all the pcs fit, well done.

QFANNY--keep adding to that story, the motivations and such you might just win me over LOL!!!!

Rosfan---I too keep questioning that whole military coming into the Hardings house---so many things left up in the air that I want answers for hmmmmm!

Hyperkitn- I like your idea of Liz being the 5th element- love. After all they say love conquers all, and i guess that would include EA's.

My husband asked me a question last night that i wasn't able to answer. How do we konw for sure that CW was a skin? I drew a total mental block on this one. We don't actually see her peal do we? Is it just assumed or applied. Someone help me out here please.

Zero- you mentioned Sliding Doors several times so I rented it last night. I have to say that between Run Lola Run and SD that my little dreamer heart is feeling better. This path Liz and Max are currently on may seam wrong to us now but the outcome should be Liz and Max together! You had said something aways back about FM seeing what PM saw when he found Liz with Kyle. At first i thought , no it's a different future being created he couldn't see that. However, after watching it over about a billion times I now agree with you. The fact that FM was still there ment what PM was experiencing had at that point become a part of his memories. What really convinced me of this was the look of incredible pain on FM's, and his telling Liz I've fought a thousand battles but watching you do that was the hardest thing I've ever done.

Qfanny- I'm glad you liked my red=love, white= peace roses. i was excited when i figured that one out. Anyway in keeping with your number ideas. Micheal has on a red **** with the #3 on it in I believe WR and part of Destiny.

GraceKel- You always beat me to these things on the boards. LOL Yes, I too noticed the 2 star of David's above Liz's bed. All I could think of was a binary pair- two seperate stars that apear to shine as one. This to me = Max and Liz both with leadership qualities leading as one. As Zero says Max and Liz together are a force to be reconed with!

Starstruck

Now to your theory---I like your idea but I have that little hangup ya know about Tess being the real bride in this POLITICAL MARRIAGE---I am hoping JK is too much of romantic like me NOT to do this--but I guess it does fit I will have to admit--just the idea of him being married to that COLD FISH--I am sorry she hasn't demonstrated any redeeming qualities as of yet---I'm not into bonding YUK!!!!

Starstruck, Nemo just informed me that the two STARS OF DAVID were present last season well at the end of last season but I hadn't noticed it so I thought this was new, a clue???? Isn't everything a clue????LOL!!!!!

Starbox I am going to get to that response very soon LOL!!!

For this theory to work TicTac and Harding are indeed two different SS. Think of them as the glowing beings in S47. They each took a group of 4 pods to safety in different areas but circumstances made it so they couldn't find eachother again. Theses circumstances being the govt. and EA's hunting them down. With the total # of podsters sent being 8, 4 were the true royal 4 and 4 were decoys to confuse the enemies. TicTac's group of 4 was the one with the broken pod. Shiela Hubble was the hybred from the broken pod and she carried the brides essence. She hatched early ( around 47 or 48) very early and was just a baby. She was retrieved by TicTac who had kept a vigil by the broken pod. He saw to it that she was placed in a loving addpotive home and raised as a normal human. She grows up, marries and is secretly expecting. The whole time EA's have knowledge that the queen was born and were seeking her out to destroy her. They catch up with her on her anniversary night and kill her. Tic Tac who has been looking out for her and is a friend of GC's is at Peppers Cafe when this happens. Hubble gives chase to the "drifter" who attacked Shiela making him absent from the scene. Tic Tac then tries to heal the dying Shiela. He is able to connect long enough to see she is wiyh child but is unable to save Shiela. He is however able to retrieve her essence and some genetc material from her unborn daughter (who at this point is one quater alien). Meanwhile the proprioter of Peppers Cafe has seen this go on and Tic Tac is forced to kill him to protect the bride. Hubble returns to the scene unable to catch the drifter and finds his wife and the owner of Peppers dead with siver handprints on them.
GC is privy to all this information as well as the knowledge that this bride is critical to the survival of alien and human kind and the earth. She promises to help place the brides essence in a human when the time is right.
Fast forward to 1982 when test tube babies have become a reality. Jeff and Nancy Parker have been trying for several years to have a child but are unable. GC suggests invetro (having of course a secret agenda). Jeff and Nancy decide to try this route. TicTac shapeshifts into the doctor responsible and uses the brides essence, the genetic material from the unborn baby and Jeff and Nancy's genetic material (OK, so behr with me, I'm no scientist but we are talking sci-fi. Think of the Movie twins with Arnold Schwartseneger (sp?) and Danny DeVito). It's 1983 and Nancy Parker gives birth to a beautiful baby girl named Liz. TicTac and GC are extatic, their plan seams to have worked. The brides essence is now safe inside GC's grandaughter. Jeff and Nancy however have no idea just how special their daughter is.
In the meantime Harding retrieved tess and knowing that the brides pod was the damaged one went on the assumption that she was born prematurely or didn't make it at all. Harding begins feeding Tess false memories of herself as Max's bride. He knows the bride is critical to the fate of alien and mankind so he thinks he's doing the right thing. Tess in the meantime doesn't know any better and truely believes she's Max's bride.

In the meantime Liz actually being a watered down version of the bride has no idea how special she is. Max on the other hand recognizes her the moment he steps off the bus.
As to why history had to be changed, as far as Max and Liz consumating their relationship. FM knows he can't tell Liz who she truely is but hints to this when he says it's not just max that's the problem here Liz, your not changing. She needs to become aware of who she really is. She said it herself in SH that she felt herself changing, that the feelings were strong , undeniable, chemical.Because of her watered down alieness it's taking her longer to find her powers. Powers that are necessay to defeat the enenmy. Because Liz has been genetically watered down her powers aren't all they should be despite the fact that she is brilliant and has a scientific mind that rivals Einstein. Therefore, Tess becomes important in the equation because she does have powers. Most important to remember is that it's Liz and Max's undying love that is the greatest power of all- the fifth element.

So, how do you like that?

Starstruck

All I can say is-- WOW you just tied so many of our RBI theories into one! How did you do that? My head is spinning

SweetJo
Liz = THE FIFTH ELEMENT
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

GraceKel - thank you for helping me out with the CW being a skin thing.

DeeDee

Hi! First time poster-long time lurker. And let me just say it takes a lot of courage to post on this thread where you are all incredibly thorough and insightful.

Is it possible that because the timeline was changed that Liz may never meet and become friends with this Serena? Wasn't it assumed that once Tess decides to stay and Liz has accomplished what she needed to that she will not live the life that Future Max spoke of? Therefore she might not meet this Serena.

That's how I understood it. And it gives TPTB an out for not having to bring up this Serena character again. Although she would be a great tie in down the road a few years should the podsters really start delving into the hows and whys of time travel.

Hope I didn't just reiterate something already discussed -- the theories are so intricate here...sometimes I forget what I've read and what I've thought of myself!

By the way I love that Radio head CD.

Anyway I think that Serena could come into play this season, but just someone they bump into. She doesn't have to be a friend now, but because they brought her up by name i think she is important

Well, off to watch the X-files premier with my daughter...

P.S. The Biblical symbolism is up at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/archetypes.htm complete with Liz & Strawberries. I hope no one is offended. I worship at Protestant Churches, work at a Catholic School, and have Jewish roots, so I tried to be sensitive.

Huggybehr---Oops! I don't read this thread regularly, so anything I say has probably already been said a hundred times before! But, you know what they say....Great minds think alike!

GraceKel, I always thought that was a great catch. (If I didn't say so before, I'm sorry.) I'm glad you pointed it out. And when someone asked about it today, I just knew you would reply, as keeper of the Venus Clock.

quote: Rosfan---I too keep questioning that whole military coming into the Hardings house....

Why can't that just be Pierce's minions, always hunting Tess and her "father," just as she said? Said minions were using the same kind of HumVee as we saw later, chasing our escaping friends.

I was just wondering if FM was not really M. If he was a Skin or something, then the stuff he told Liz would be a lie designed to get Tess with Max. But FM sure seemed like M to me with regards to dancing with Liz and his jealousy of Kyle... Just a fantasy of denial masqerading as a theory.

Someone mentioned a few pages ago that even numbers are stationary and odd numbers are active. This is unrelated to my above theory I guess, since this would make Liz a "five", but it occured to me that MMI didn't make much headway as far as discoveries about their origins until Max healed Liz- completing the five even though Tess wasn't physically with them at the time.

I probably posted stuff that has been mentioned before, but any thoughts?

garbo

liz is the true love of max from the home planet. being of royalty, max had to marry someone important. liz could possibly second in command. anyway, tess could be the "princess" from the skins. maybe there was turmoil on the planet and to maybe ease that, max's race intermarries w/ tess, a skin. not by his free will does he choose tess. now, mayber there was power greedy skins that one way or another play into getting max dethroned. a battle ensues. liz, in the midst of battle watches her beloved die. to save the planet, she gets his "essence" and the rest of the podsters, and tess as well -- in order to understand the way the skins think and what underlying plan was concocted. sends guardians into outerspace w/ the "essence" to help raise these royalty to "... learn from the enemy..." etc. just before take off, she takes a small part of herself and smuggles her "essence" to a trusted alien and no one else would know. she being sent to be w/ her beloved... since they could not be together in this lifetime, maybe the next.

just as the alien guardian reach earth, they learn that there are skins coloized and change course for another planet to raise the royal four, when something goes wrong that the ship crashes. the royal four are incubated until they hatch. now the alien w/ liz's essence has to find a way to incubate her. maybe keeps liz frozen. somewhere down the line, ss meets gc and has a fling slips liz's "essence" to grandma. grandma has jeff. liz, being females, lies dormant in jeff. jeff marries nancy and have liz... ah a female. so, liz's essence goes into liz. since she was passed on from alien liz to frozen pop to gc to jeff to liz, the essence has weakened a bit. thus remaining dormant further until meeting child max. realizing her soulmate. human liz grows to be a smart woman. then getting shot and max healing liz, the connection is re-established. from the long time of being apart, memories of the past life is fuzzy.
but each time liz connects w/ max, the "essence" gets stronger until the "gifts" are used.

now... w/ liz's knowledge that tess could end up evil and destroy the podsters in the future, i can understand where she will be cautious to get together w/ max. but this is a different time. when max and liz get together, emily would have become more "human" w/ the ideas and lessons (from budda) from kyle. so when the dreamers get together, tess won't be as bitter and just may not leave roswell in big huff. it was max's cruel treatment that made her leave the first time around. so, liz could still run into serena and learn all that stuff about the granolith.

ok... my brain is now mush.

1. he is a cold heart alien and do not understand or know anything about emotion.

2. He was surprise by the fact Max was able to fall in love with someone else (beside Tess consider Max love her in the past life and it look like when Max fall in love that he is a good lover one that faithful to his love)

if the #2 is correct then Liz will not be in his past life and therefore will not come to Earth.(sorry if I disagree with some of you.)
BUT I still belive liz is more than "human".

I very don't like the idea that Max love Tess in his past live but I am more interesting into this M/L/T love triangle.

Thank God there is a Kyle for Tess to fall in love to.

I will have the new thread up in the morning (West Coast time) - so look for Thread #15 then, just in time for "Harvest"!

Night All!!

Zero

Just trying to read up on all the thoughts you guys had over the weekend. I'll get back to ya if anything pops out!

I rewatched some old epps over the weekend to satisfy my brain due to some insights on this thread on Friday. They seem so insignificant now since it has grown so tremendously... I'm posting them anyway.

The "S" names.... I forgot who posted that about the "S" names, but the motel where Michael and Maria stayed in "285 South" was called Sultans.....

Also, concerning the number 5....(this may seem silly and really stretching it) the calendar in the Sherriff's department was dated the 28 (Epp - 285 South)....Maybe they added that 5 to get the highway name... or maybe it's a real highway and I'm just driving myself crazy!!!!

Lots of great thoughts. I have none right now. Too much to think about. I will say that no matter if Liz is hybrid or knew Max on Planet Twilo, it is all SO very romantic.

I disagree with M/Mi being the shooters.

LaSalle - I like the comparison to the "Fifth ELement"

I will comment on the theory of Tess's essence missing due to the leaking pod. I think that her essence would be inside her not necessarily in the "fluid". I have to disregard that theory.

Have a great day!

Me too. Why do people think this? Just to save "the connection"? I could definitely fathom someone ELSE from the Future coming back and shooting Liz to "get rid of her", but Max?? No! I don't believe it!!!

quote:
I will comment on the theory of Tess's essence missing due to the leaking pod. I think that her essence would be inside her not necessarily in the "fluid". I have to disregard that theory.

What do other people think? I can't really even get a clear thought of what I think the leaky stuff was. Liz's essence? T essence? Just extra stuff that makes no difference to anything anywhere?

Zero

That was such a great theory! It definitely all fits and it's even so romantic!

I have tried posting today and it doesn't seem to work. This is my last try, today, not that you all have seen any others, but....

About the numbers...I rewatched "285 South" this weekend and in the Police Dept. the calendar is dated 28 (it's one of those big number calendars that you rip off each page daily). Maybe they added the number "5" to that date to get 285. Or maybe I'm stretching here because I was so excited about going back to look at all the clues that were discussed last week. Either way there's the number 5 again.

Also, the "S" names....the motel Mi/M stayed in in "285 South" was named "Sultan's" thought that could somehow factor into the whole scheme.

Gotta go, that's all I can muster up after reading 7 additional pages of dialogue since Friday....WOW!

Can't wait for tonight!