The following is a summary of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the original threads. Our basic thesis is that Liz is an important and essential element to the alien mythology. Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. Following is a summary of what we have discussed.

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things continued on the “current” course, Liz and Max would end up married, and all H#@* would break out, resulting in the Earth’s being taken over in 2014 – all due to the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging. But lets go back to the beginning, since few (if any) questions re: that connection were answered in TEOTW.

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is – maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet (is she the true love of Max’s previous life?), or a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth, or was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early and was humanized by her human parents (Though this seems less and less likely after TEOTW, why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz?), or was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group, or could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that are all human (according to Harding) BTW. Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents, does she have a connection to the Indians or an alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble – and how this plays into the connection with Max? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her? Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago, a race somehow connected to the podsters’ people? How does the Granolith fit into this? We now know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. Was it used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine –so did other have a chance to us it this way?). What is the intended purpose? (So, many questions … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the human race and the podsters’ people. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being been split between two beings – Max and Liz? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities? (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess !) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no??

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart, then again Liz followed her heart a believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene, and now Maria tells Max to follow his heart, like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another?

The symbolism throughout the seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather need both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Viking (?) Ship that is tied to a tale directly relevant to our star-crossed lovers and their trials. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode that Liz must sacrifice her love to ensure peace. There are lots of others! Coincidence??

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young bride has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? Though many seem to accept that it probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences?), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Wiy does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods? If this is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision, and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY ISN’T ANYONE READING WHITAKER’S FILES!!!!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, and now potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (she was the one that sent FM back in time and the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out in Destiny is the former leader of his people. Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” Max, and bring him into “balance”? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many have expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz is capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. Will she be the one able to SEE the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do).

All of Liz’s visions has been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW seems to confirm somewhat)? Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, analogist to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)??

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library) and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1??)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! hummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication, SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone!

Could it be that the 4 squares (podsquad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the podsquad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy, and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (in Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

Many have wondered if the "evil" aliens – Skins - might also be from the podsquad's planet, just part of a civil war - therefore, having similar characteristics and powers to Harding's type of alien. The Skins seem to have similar powers – but no shapeshifting has been seen, yet, by them. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? We now know there were other pods planted at the same time, but where and what happened to them? Could there be more than one set of podsters that will show up later? Clones? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him – why? And are they another race of aliens (a third race of aliens), or one of the two “know” aliens? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the chosen human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the podsquad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2??

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the podsquad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands.

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have incorporated dates listed on the Crashdown Timeline, but I find them unreliable, and note my concerns:
1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 12th grade
10/25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to sum up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, and that together Max and Liz make an incredible force to be reckoned with!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO Spoilers, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired.

Zero

i guess i'll be back after tonight's episode.

Rfan

Can't wait for The Harvest!!!

*Jenny*

Zero, Liz as the advisor? I have been pondering a theory along this line, which is where my earlier correlation to the scenario in the Hook film with Robin Williams came from. No one picked it up, so I dropped it. Maybe it's worth considering after all.

which leads in nicely to shaiwon72's theory about Liz sending the essences, including her own. But would she really send Tess' alog as well, AND make sure that she is designated as Max's destiny? Maybe.

GraceKel, I must have missed your "S" theory. Can you run a simplistic version by me? It looks like you are saying that "S" are friends. But some that you list are FBI agents, like Stephens, who did not seem like a friend to me.

Ever since Destiny, something has been niggling me. Maybe this has been raised before? Why is Tess referred to as the "Bride"? A Bride is a woman on her wedding day. Why not call her his young wife. I believe that the Royal 4 met their deaths on Max's wedding day, maybe as an act of treachery by you know who?.

WR

Ever since Destiny, something has been niggling me. Maybe this has been raised before? Why is Tess referred to as the "Bride"? A Bride is a woman on her wedding day. Why not call her his young wife. I believe that the Royal 4 met their deaths on Max's wedding day, maybe as an act of treachery by you know who?.

WR[/B]

WR - ALOT about the "bride" thing bugs me - I have a longer theory I am going to post after tonight's episode.
One thing I will say - is if you are involved in a huge battle - WHAT ARE YOU DOING GETTING MARRIED??? I am reminded of some publicity that George Clooney/Nicole Kidman did for their movie "The Peacemaker" - when asked why there was no romance in the film he replied that it would take away from the reality of the struggle if they could just stop trying to save the world and have sex for a while.
A bride, children - these things would be weaknesses. liabilities. UNLESS - as some have speculated - it was an arranged, political marriage meant to end the conflict.
But the possibility still exists that the mom--o-gram was manipulated and there IS no "young bride".

StarStruck - interesting theory - one thing I would say is that it is possible that the "essence" could be transfered without removing the fetus. Hubble said the autopsy revealed she was pregnant - and I agree this means they found a fetus. BUT - as some have mentioned - she could have been pregnant with twins - OR perhaps the aliens could trasfer the "esence" simply by touch. That would make it easier to pass off the "essence" to unsuspecting Parker parents.

This one is on Starstruck's theory. When the pods were sent down by their people let's say they found out later that Max was really in love w/Liz and sent her later which could account for her not being w/them as opposed to her sending herself down. Only cause I think she probably would have to be dead by the way they recreated the others. Unless she DID the Romeo & Juliet thing & killed herself so she could be sent down w/Max. Since this reference keeps being made to the two.
I think your theory goes good w/La Salles theory of the 5th Element type thing. This also could incorporate GraceKel's theory of the decoy (TEss) as well.
I suppose this doesn't have to necessarily mean Liz is an alien, because don't you think that M/M/I probably visited earth sometime in their former lives and that is where Max met and fell in love w/Liz. She dies and the aliens knowing this recreated her and she is still human and still part of Max true destiny.

By the way Zero excellent job as usual. We are going through a thread an episode these dayz and you are doing a great job keeping up.

Great intro Zero!

quote:ORIGINALLY POSTED BY WR: Ever since Destiny, something has been niggling me. Maybe this has been raised before? Why is Tess referred to as the "Bride"? A Bride is a woman on her wedding day. Why not call her his young wife. I believe that the Royal 4 met their deaths on Max's wedding day, maybe as an act of treachery by you know who?.

GOOD POINT WR! I thought the whole "bride" reference was weird too. Good explaination!

HEY--If WR's theory is true, then doesn't that mean that Max and Tess probably never consumated their relationship? Well, that's if they don't believe in premarital sex on their planet.

Seems like it could be a big possibility, especially since Tess was in such a need of a lamp trimming!

quote:ORIGINALLY POSTED BY HYPERKITN:I suppose this doesn't have to necessarily mean Liz is an alien, because don't you think that M/M/I probably visited earth sometime in their former lives and that is where Max met and fell in love w/Liz. She dies and the aliens knowing this recreated her and she is still human and still part of Max true destiny.

HyperKitN--Very interesting! I definitely think that this is possible. I like it because it keeps Liz human. But I still like THE FIFTH ELEMENT Theory more, because it does a better job at explaining why Liz is so important to the podsters whenever they get in trouble. UNLESS YOU ARE SAYING LIZ IS THE FIFTH AND THAT MAX MET HER AND FELL IN LOVE W/HER ON EARTH A LONG TIME AGO AND REALIZED THAT LIZ WAS IMPORTANT TO HIS RACE. I don't know. It seems anything is posssible!

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!
LIZ = THE FIFTH ELEMENT

Aha! This adds a bit more meat. If it was, as is suspected, an arranged marriage, then consumation is unlikely. This then, could be Tess' mission, to conceive a child with Max, to become the natural heir to Max's throne and solidify her faction's clain to the throne. That would explain why she left when Max and Liz effectively locked her out, and she failed in her task.
(Still does not explain why Tess does not Tell the skins where the granolith is, unless she is NOT as skin, and is NOT Vilandra.)

WR

believer_evans

Do not feel bad if you're opinions and theories are not commented on right away. This thread is incrediably fast, and even the most seasoned of the RBI have a hard time keeping up! Just keep posting! I have seen 5 pages added over one day! Now that's work!

Zero!
Great opening! Man, at the end of this season it will be the entire page and it still won't hold all the clues and ideas on it.

At this point I have nothing more to add.

WR

Perhaps there could be traitors amongst the Skins themselves? Tess (if she is a Skin or Skin cooperative) amongst these traitors? Small factions of Skins with their own agenda and want the Granilith for themselves? Or perhaps Tess is from yet another alien faction (yet to be revealed) that wants the Granilith? This faction deceived and married into Max's faction? (...or tried to that is, I'm intrigued by the theories about the podsters meeting their fate on Max/Tess' wedding day).

Since I haven't been reading this thread as faithfully as I should, this might have been brought up before, but I have yet another Run Lola Run speculation to drop in the bucket. Something to tie into Liz/Sheila Hubble. Once again, going back to the "3 attempts" RLR comparing, what if it's not Liz that we should be comparing, but the alien essence that has been speculated might be in her?

Essence Failed Life #1: On the alien planet, Alien Liz dies before she can fulfill her destiny with King Max. Max/T/Mi/I all die because Max was about to marry T? Essence Failed Life #2: Reincarnated as Sheila Hubble on Earth, but is once again killed by the same responsible for her death on Twilo. Essence Life #3: Reincarnated into Liz Parker. The final attempt and the one in line with Max's 1989 hatching as a 6-yr-old boy, hence Liz is the reincarnation that will be with Max and finally fulfill the destiny?

I'm still hanging onto the theories that the essence possibly in Liz could be from a different faction than the podsters / Skins / and possibly Tess'. Although we really have no reason to believe there are more than 2 alien factions at work here, but we really don't have a whole lot to work with in the first place (hence I keep my speculating open). There's another faction working solely with Liz's essence, protecting it and keeping it in new bodies every time there's an assassination attempt? Ex/ Sheila Hubble is killed, essence is transferred by essence protector. Perhaps the essence might have been in Claudia Parker for a short time but switched to Liz when she came into the picture (Liz is in line with the "hatch date"). Explaining GC's specialness with Liz (both are familiar with the 'essence', GC possibly *senses* it in Liz)? Although, how did this possible "Liz faction" know anything about Max's "hatch date"? They would have needed an informant on the inside.

Am I insane?

Melodious

Melodious

Possibly! Probably! NO-really I understand what you are saying about the other "Liz faction" and "Essence protectors". But like I said before, maybe I'm just crazy too!

About the "bride" thing, I originally thought of this as just that Max and Tess probably never consumated their relationship. I never thought about her being a SKIN. I guess that is because I like Tess.::Runs to the corner and hides::
Okay nobody has killed me for saying I like Tess. This is a good sign.
No really, I like Tess(dare I say I even trust her after TEOTW) but I don't like her with Max.

Anyway, I bet they never got the chance to consumate the marriage. This would be further proof that Max has NEVER been romantically attached to Tess. I am 95%certain it was an arranged marriage anyway. It's always like that for Kings and Princes of warring nations. They almost always get married for political alliances.
Which means Tess could be of a different alien faction, but not of the skin faction. Well, that's assuming all the Skins are evil. I don't necessarily think that all Skins are evil.
In that case if some skins are good then Tess could be originally from a GOOD SKIN faction. Don't know?

That probably made no sense.

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!
LIZ = THE FIFTH ELEMENT

I think tonight during Harvest we might actually see Liz's real powers breakout for the first time. Afterall, Max's life looks like it will be threatened in the previews.

She couldn't just stand back and do nothing. I think her powers might accidently slip out tonight if she indeed does have powers.

BTW-I have been wondering, how did you guys come up with Twilo as the planet name? Was it actually refered to as Twilo in an episode? Did I miss it or something?

SweetJo
LIZ = THE FIFTH ELEMENT
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

Story # one:
About the "young bride" - what if the distinction was made because she was the second bride? What if his true love was his first wife, and something happened to her?
Let's say Max had to remarry for politics - like to join the two sides. Maybe wife #2 was actually the betrayer and they all get killed, but everyone thought it was Valondra because she was being used by a sweet-talking, ambitious evil guy. Their mother insists that Valondra deserves a second chance and "Max" would forgive her, so his sister is included in the pod mission. Long after the crash, they discover on the homeworld that #2(Tess) was the traitor, not Valondra(Isabel). The original wife #1 is long "dead", but somehow her essence or "frequency" is reproducable but it is too late for her to be podded and ready to help Max in time. They decide not to pod her the same way so she can be ready in time to join Max, but to do this, she can't be a hybrid. They bring her essence to Earth, but have to find a human female child to put the essence into. Enter Grandma Claudia, old friend of Tic-tac or the REAL Nasedo, and her granddaughter. Liz is given the essence and is Max's true love again. She does not know she was wife #1, Tess does not know yet she was a traitor, and only Max knows in his heart what his external information is wrong about.
OK, that was a stretch. How about...

[I]Story #2
Max's planet is looking to expand, gain natural resources, or whatever. They discover Earth(and/or other primitive worlds), but Max feels it is wrong to interfere or take us/them over. Some greedy and agressive people disagree and want Earth/Others to be taken over for natural resources, slaves, room to grow, or (again)whatever. Max says no, but an ambitious individual has been sowing seeds of discontent and a civil war begins over what to do about Earth/Other civilizations. Valondra is suckered in by his attentions and loves the rebel, but he is only using her to get to Max. The influence of Tess does not help anything, and she may even have betrayed Max as well, or hindered his decisions. How does Liz fit in? What if Tess was an arranged political marriage? ...and...

1. the same thing happened as in story #1,
2. Liz is actually a decoy to distract Max from kingly business (so far effective) planted by the Skins. If a spy had been able to tamper with Max's "programming" so he went after Liz like a heat-seaking puppy, why not just kill him? Maybe because he would just be sainted or cloned again, and it would be far more effective to have him discredit himself. Remember when he said that creepy line to Liz in the Crash Down, he started off by saying that he didn't care about his planet? How would his people feel about a leader with that attitude? Right now he can't even get Michael and Is to follow him. He doesn't even want to be a leader or king. He might be persuaded to give up the granolith easier. It would be sad if Max's love for Liz was artificial because of a sabatour's deed.
3. Liz is the reincarnation of an old love?(Yuk! - I really don't like this one, but Kyle might),
4. Max was in the damaged pod, and his "programming" was interupted and is a bit off, thus making him obsess over Liz.
5.

Okay - let me say I am going to just go out on a limb and say TESS IS EVIL.
She gave me the CREEPS in this episode.

Let me count the ways:
1) okay - this isnt the first thing but WHAT was with her gazing with almost sexual attraction/worship at the picture of CW????? And the flashback she had - it was like some slow-mo weird thing with definately NOT scary music playing. CREEPY.
2) convenient that the fake newscast appeared with TESS our little mind-warping friend in the room.
3) convenient that Tess "just happened" to find the "Society of Friends" envelope
4) weird look between Tess and "Pa Whittaker"
5) and what was up with her little interrogation of Kyles bedroom ability - is she a nymphomanic too?? (evidently Vilandra was a bit of a hussy - making a pass at Nicholas, cheating on her bethrothed. hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm) She definately didnt seem to be madly in love/loyal to Max - in fact she seemed almost like she was more out to displace Liz than to actually "bond" with Max.
6) convenient how she barges in on Isabel and Nicolas with news that CW was adopted so Isabel can relax and TRUST Nicolas & the Whittakers because they are probably HUMANS - and when she shut the door to talk to Isabel - did anyone else see a snake-like shadow on the door?

After EOTW I was ready to accept the POSSIBILITY that Tess was actually the fourth podster - but her behavior in this episode was just too weird.
Remember Tess's name means HARVESTER.

Max/Liz things:
1) LIZ was in the drivers seat.
2) When Tess gave the <gag> <gag> "let my power flow into you" <gag> <gag> line the power didnt seem to get any stronger - BUT when they broke the connection and LIZ ran to Max - the timing coincided with the husks getting destroyed.
3) The EA assumed that LIZ was a royal.

Okay - let me say I am going to just go out on a limb and say TESS IS EVIL.
She gave me the CREEPS in this episode.

Let me count the ways:

4) weird look between Tess and "Pa Whittaker"

ROTFL
Oh wow, you are too funny! I thought #4 was the funniest out of all those funny comments. TESS has the HOTS for PA WHITTAKER.

You have some really good points too. The ESA did think Liz was one of the ROYAL FOUR it seems.
And Tess was conveniently in the right place at the right time if she is evil.
I would like to think that Tess isn't evil though. But you never know.

Plus, Max was still like depending on Liz after everything that happened. When Tess asked Max, "What do we do?" He said one word. Can anyone guess what word/name that might be? LIZ!
Then he said they needed LIZ to go with them to Arizona.
Then as you pointed out LIZ drove them at least half way there. Max drove the rest of the time. BOTH LEADERS? YES! OBVIOUS!

OK I'm done now.

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!
LIZ=THE FIFTH ELEMENT

SweetJo

Tess gave me the creeps in Harvest also. I do not trust her.

Has anyone ever read this before? I know chapooh must be a RBI.

About Shiri's statement--Do you think she was lying because she was instructed by the writers not to give anything away yet?

OR-Do you think she really doesn't know what the writers have in store for Liz yet?

OR-Do you think that the writers haven't actually been leading in the direction we thought they were all along? :::shutter at the thought:::

Anyway, I hope this isn't a repeated discussion from a while back. Just thought all the RBI's may want to see this. Who's Chapooh? Anyone? Maybe it is a lurker?

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!
LIZ=THE FIFTH ELEMENT

Ack! Ack! Ack! Boy, that ep was strange. I've only watched it once so maybe tomorrow I'll be able to put a few more thoughts up here.

It appears that we may have some more answers here, but I can't quite sift through them. Did anyone else think that last line with Nicholas was dorky? Okay, that was OT. Hmm...

Tess was strange this ep. I thought the writers were starting to straighten out and define her character the previous few eps, but now I just think something is off. Either the writing is off, the acting is off, or the character is off and I can't tell which. Any thoughts?

I did like how Max immediately tried to get Liz out of the room when the EA went after them. ...so protective. Is it just love, or does he realize something subconsciously?

When Max put up the shield and Tess went to help him, the power didn't seem to grow. I was so hoping Liz would step in and place her hand on top. I thought for sure we'd see something happen then. But I guess the writers don't want to show there cards yet. (I'm un-spoiled, just so you know, these are just my musings.)

Goodnight RBIers!

BTW, Zero - Great Start!

Don't forget to vote for Moderator yet tonight!

Please consider voting for Celestial Angel!

This is my just-checking-in-before-rewatching-1000-times post, so bear with me.

-1st thought: SCI FRIGGIN' FI! I loved this ep! I've been grumbling about the lack of lovin' lately, but honestly, this ep had so much going on that I didn't really miss the 'ships...too much

-Each week Tess becomes more of a mystery to me, and I'm not sure how I feel about that. Did anyone else get a chill when she asked what the CW was like at her age? That just really bothered me.

-Liz finally said the "p" word to Max--pedastal! I'm not crazy about the way it's happening, but he really does need to get her off that thing...

OK, that's all for now. Have a good night, folks!

Story # one:
About the "young bride" - what if the distinction was made because she was the second bride? What if his true love was his first wife, and something happened to her?
Let's say Max had to remarry for politics - like to join the two sides. Maybe wife #2 was actually the betrayer and they all get killed, but everyone thought it was Valondra because she was being used by a sweet-talking, ambitious evil guy. Their mother insists that Valondra deserves a second chance and "Max" would forgive her, so his sister is included in the pod mission. Long after the crash, they discover on the homeworld that #2(Tess) was the traitor, not Valondra(Isabel). The original wife #1 is long "dead...

Hmmm...I like this, but would tweak it slightly: Mommo et al didn't know about the Vilandra betrayal, and that's why her essence was included. Recall she "sacrificed" herself too. That might mean she died to cover her alliance with the enemy so she could get cloned in a human body. So maybe Vilondra is Tess, but this time she's not playing on the Skins' team.

But as for Liz... I still am not happy with any of the alien theories for her, but there must be an explanation for her being the one Max recognized as "the one." Zero's theory is the best (that earth was colonized by aliens, so all are from one race), it even makes a nice metaphor for Adam and Eve...but somehow I don't think the writers would go there...it's too...alienating.

So, now we know that we were correct when we assumed that the battling on the home planet was a civil war, obviously between many races. So, are the Skins and Podsters decended from totally different races or off-shoots of the same race? How come the podsters could be "created" into Hybrids, the Skins could only take on a single (age-determined) form and the shapeshifters (Harding, Tic Tac) could take on multiple forms without a life-cycle we are aware of?? And who/what other life form is out there waiting to be discovered??

I also found it interesting that the term "bride" was used again when referring to Tess. It is a odd term to use. Makes me wonder about the social structure on the home planet. We know that M was supposedly linked to T who was his "bride," but she seems to have a wandering eye here even if she "remembers" the love (Gag!) they shared on the home planet. And that Iz was betrothed to Mike, but had a great love for the leader of the Skins (Kavlar - ???) who currently sits on the thrown - not the porcelain one - there, and hope to have her (in her human form??) brought back to him by sleaze-boy! Doesn't speak too highly to the "committed" relationships on the home planet now does it??! Ummmm! If it is called the Vilandra Project - does that mean that was the entire goal, to bring back Vilandra??? (Then take over the Earth?)

We also know - according to Courtney, who I do believe is a good Skin (which I suspected from the beginning that Good and Evil would not be clear cut) - that Max was not considered a strong leader. The question (I know I have too many questions) this raises is WHY was he a weak leader?? Could it be that he had been forced into a loveless marriage for political reasons, and had to turn his back on his true love - the love he later recognized in Liz as he stepped off the bus in kindergarten??? I'm not convinced Liz is alien (unless you buy my ancient alien colonization of the Earth theory), but WHY Max was a weak leader plays right into Liz as the key theory!!

I loved that Max is suspicious of Liz's sleeping with Kyle - that seemed to be the only true to character scene tonight (other than all the Maria/Mikey G interactions which cracked me up!). Also, Max's immediate thoughts when threatened were for Liz's safety, but why did he leave her standing in the middle of the deserted street in the middle of a weird town? AND how come the podsters can't seem to tell who's a Skin and who is not, but the Skin's can tell?? I wish Liz's ability to see the Evil within was used.

Finally - (can't believe I've rambled on so long) - WHY HAVE THEY NOT BEEN READING WHITAKER'S FILES!! This is a huge issue I have with Roswell since the swing to Sci-Fi. If they are so all consumed with finding where they came from and why they were sent to Earth in Human form, wouldn't they be reading EVERYTHING relevant to those subjects?? BIG HOLE in credibility for me. To only be going through her files AFTER her death is announced seems very lame, and totally out of character for Liz of all the characters. If I was Liz, I would be spending every free hour reading the files or listening to the tapes/CDs in Whitaker's office - especially now, after learning about the "potential" end of the Earth in 2014!

The best scenes of this episode were the few with Max being a jerk or confronting Liz - the chemistry is incredible. Did you notice that Liz was the one sitting next to Max on the couch in the Skin's home - not Tess!

I found little that added to Liz's importance in this episode, but ....

Back tomorrow --

Zero

I have something posted on your Sci-Fi Theories website shapeshifter that kind of coincides with the "Tess = Vilandra" theories. It's in the "time travel" theories section. That Tess might have *purposefully* been separated from the podsters to have been raised a SPECIFIC way. If Tess is Vilandra and possibly *some* Podians knew about her betrayal (this would include Edsedo), she was taken from the podsters and Edsedo drummed in her the vital importance to "follow destiny".

Although, despite being raised apart from them in a *special* way, Tess doesn't seem to love Max at all (although she apparently remembers him loving her). She also still seems to be interested in trimming Kyle's lamp. I could believe a (misguided) Max loving her and she not returning that love... or maybe Max never loved her and what she said in ASK NOT was all a fabrication (either by Edsedo or her own). Which is possibly why Vilandra might have been desperate for love (not getting it from her 'husband'), or perhaps just desperate from some "lamp trimming"? Even if it did come from a Skin (Revolutionary Leader)?

Although, Nikolas seemingly "looked into" Isabel's eyes and recognized Vilandra? Yet another Skin that seems to think that Iz is Vilandra. Or did Whitaker merely inform the homebase of who she thought Vilandra was? Hence, they're so desperate to find Vilandra, Nik WANTS Iz to be her, when she isn't? Or is this a ploy by the Skins to divert the attention from the one they KNOW is Vilandra (Tess)? They know Tess/Vilandra WILL follow them eventually, but they want to put more friction in the podster ranks? Possibly knowing that the King and his second-in-command already had pre-existing friction? So to seperate the King from his sister, they make her believe she betrayed her brother (and just might do it again and be helpless to stop it)? Could this be why there's quite possibly a "fifth element" (Liz)? Liz is the "balance" between the warring podsters?

If Courtney was being at all authentic with her description of how it was on Twilo (granted, could be questionable... but I do believe her for some reason). Then seemingly Max was a disaster as King. If this is so, then his choices back then (including that of "a bride") wouldn't have been all that *stellar*. Perhaps it's Max's love for Liz (and Max's adamance in Liz being "the one") that will possibly be the catalyst in Max eventually becoming a good leader? (sorry, the Dreamgirl is hard to tame )

Liz does influence Max's decisions much more often for the better. As opposed to Tess who's generally hiding behind Max (it took her a little while before she finally lent her powers to help Max fight of those Skins today, didn't it?) or chiming in with her token "What do we do now Max?"... while Liz takes control of a situation. Regardless of Liz being alien (to whatever degree) or not.

If Max was the king (and a lousy one at that) and Tess was his bride... if Max was as influenced in the past by someone he loves as he is now... how big a role did Tess have in Max's apparent disastrous rule?

Ok, this was a lot longer than I was intending it to be and I'm tired! Buenas noches my fellow RBIs.

Melodious

Also, did anyone else notice the screwy dates? Iz's b-day in Surprise was 10/25,(two weeks ago according to Harvest) EOTW took place around Halloween, but Harvest supposedly starts on the 26th.

Nitpicky, I know, but stuff like this bugs me.

I have a couple of things this morning :-) - I'll post them it two messages so bear with me.

The first is a little theory that I have already shard w/GraceKel and Zero - I didnt post it last night because I wasnt sure how I felt about Courtney.
I really LIKE courtney. She is warm, and funny. I want her to be a good skin!
BUT - look at what she told Micheal - "you have to betray Max - the problem in the last life is you just wouldnt betray him". And who are these "rebel skins"? Courney's husk was at Copper Summit - so she must have been kind of accepted by them. Also - if the EA just wanted to kill/capture the royals - why not do it while they were all sleeping at CW's house???
Her seeming "destruction" of the husks could have been a plan to get her to gain a foothold/trust in the royals (esp. Micheal). In destiny - we saw EA all over the globe - surely all their "husks" were not contained in that little barn.
Anyway - here is my theory - still in the forming stages:

Suppose that the EA are trying to SUBVERT the podsters.
Here is what I think.
The mom-o-gram was tampered with. Harding and Tess were both in the chamber when it went off. I think the "your young bride" line was a manipulation & Tess is an imposter (maybe not a skin - maybe her she is 1/2 skin and 1/2 human or 1/2 shapeshifter 1/2 human - but she is NOT on "our side")

Now here is why - the "and this must be the BRIDE" line at CW's funeral was just TOO weird. I mean - who uses the word "BRIDE". Seems like the EA would have said "And this must be the queen" - or "and is this you sister or your queen?".

Now if the "bride" line was manipulated - look at what the mom-o-gram would have really said :
"My son, you were our beloved leader. I have sent with you my daughter, the man you (speaking to Isabel) were betrothed to, and your second-in-command."
STILL 4 people - and it makes much more sense NOT to send a "bride".

Now - look at how that manipulation & the "vilandra" project works to detroy the cohesiveness of the podsquad and play directly on their weakness/attacks their strengths.

First - Isabel - who is nothing if not LOYAL to Max. But also (I think) longs for a deep connection with someone. She gets told she is a betrayer - that she has a great love. Both making her doubt her greatest strength (her loyalty) and playing on her longing for a great connection with someone.

Second - Michael - who has "authority issues". The manipulated mom-o-gram wold also make him think HE is second-in-command - which is a position he CLEARLY resents. Enter Courtney - with the news that Max is actually a HORRIBLE leader - the reason for the war - and that the "rebels" need HIM to betray the good-for-nothing Max and take his rightful position as leader.

Now for Max and Liz - as co-leaders they are vital to each other. Their love and union creates the intangible "fifth element".
Not only does the "young bride" line keep them apart - it also plays against their strengths:

MAX - his biggest strength is his intuition - his ability to "follow his heart" and lead based on his instinct. He is made to DOUBT his ability to trust his heart - that has told him his entire life that Liz is "THE ONE".

LIZ - her greatest strength is her ability to see the big picture and make decisions based on logic. She is also willing to sacrifice to achieve a goal/outcome. All of these strengths get used against her.

Lets looks at what the colors mean.

Blue - "the most insubstantial of colors, seldom occurs in the natural world except as an ACCUMULATION OF EPTINESS, the VOID of the heavens. (that reminded me of Liz's Nasedo "flash")
"Apply the color blue to an object and it will reduce, cut open, and destroy its shape. Movement and sounds, like shapes, disappear into blue, sink and vanish like a bird in the sky. Indifferent and unafraid, centered SOLELY ON ITSELF, blue is not of this world.
Blue has a solemn, substantial gravity which envokes the idea of death. Can represent the RIVALRY between heaven and earth.
"In the WAR between HEAVEN and EARTH - BLUE AND WHITE are allied AGAINST RED and GREEN"
"Blue is associated with the Zodiacal sign of VIRGO which corresponds to HARVEST TIME. It will strip the earth of its cloak of greenery, bare it and dry it up. Aztecs considered blue to be the sign of DROUGHT, FAMINE and DEATH.

And now - GREEN
"Although GREEN is a color combination of blue and yellow - it is allied with RED in its symbolic interplay.
It is a comforting, refreshing, human color.
Green is the color of the awakening of life, of rebirth.
Green is the color of water, as red is the color of fire - which is why humanity has always instinctively felt a connection between these colors on par with human life and being. Gren is the color of HOPE, STRENGTH., LONGEVITY, and IMMORTALITY.
Red represents the MALE and Green the FEMALE. They represt together - yin and yang.

"TO BALANCE THE ONE AGAINST THE OTHER IS THE SECRET OF THE BALANCE BETWEEN MANKIND AND NATURE"

Green is the Islamic color of salvation.
Green is the color of the theological value of HOPE.

"THE MARVELOUS VIRTUES OF THE COLOR GREEN SUGGEST THAT THIS COLOR HIDES A SECRET AND THAT IT SYMBOLIZES THE DEEP AND HIDDEN KNOWLEDGE OF NATURE AND OD FATE"

I'm SUPER new here. Just fell upon the thread last Thursday or Friday. So, I'm trying to kinda put all of these amazing theories of yours through this ringer in my brain! lol!

Having seen so many posts on the correlation between Liz's life and the movie Run, Lola, Run I rent it this weekend to see what ya'll were talking about.

From what I can tell (and PLEASE feel free to correct me if I'm wrong--that's the only way I'll learn) the general idea that ya'll have is that Liz herself has several chances to live and 'get things right'. That several of you believe she might really have been on planet Twilo and died there and now has a second/third chance here on Earth. But there are some of you that don't like the Liz-as-1/2-alien theory so that idea wouldn't necessarily hold for you.

Well, the one thing I noticed about RLR (and I'm sure you all have too) is that it wasn't Lola who died 2 times. She only 'died' once. Mannie died the other time. Then the third time they both got it right, prompted by Lola's actions. So, I guess my thought is what if Max's death on Twilo was the first try. Liz's death at the Crashdown was the second try and now they are in their third try together.

If you switch the order of events in RLR, I think it would fit. Lola wasn't there for Mannie when she needed to be and it led to his death. Liz, being human and not born yet, wasn't the strength Max needed...the part of him that would click and make him 'work' on his planet to be an effectual/strong leader and therefore died because of it.

Now, here on Earth, Liz's death at the Crashdown and Max's healing of her brings them both face to face with a combined destiny they instinctively knew they had...but for one reason or another (Max because of his fear of exposure and Liz because of her insecurities that she would be 'good enough' for Max or that he would ever notice her) never pursued until that moment when Fate brought them together.

I know that in the show they never had this scene, but on the Roswell calendar there is a conversation between L/Maria where Liz says she's always 'felt' something for Max even long before the shooting and subsequent healing. It wasn't just Max who recognized Liz in kindergarten...she's recognized him too. I think that's where the whole "Kyle, when you look at me do you feel thing?" question came up in Pilot.

Now, is it because she 'knew' him from Twilo? Or was Max destined to fail on his home planet so he could fall to Earth and claim his true destiny in Liz? I'm not sure, but I just thought it would be an interesting to question/scenerio to throw out to ya'll.

So, what do you think? Am I complete nut? Or a total dunce? It's ok to tell me. I can deal!! Especially since I'm sooo new to to all of this!!!

BehrHugs,
Ashton

Wow! What an episode! Again.. so many thoughts and questions, but few answers. It seems with every answer there comes about 10 questions, but.. I digress.

Most of you have summed up everything I thought, but.. well, you KNOW I have to ramble off some thoughts!

T :
*Grrrrrr* This girl has bugged me since Day 1 and JUST when I thought MAYBE there was a GLIMOR of hope for her in EOTW she goes and gets all creepy on me again. Doesn't it seem as if she's just a LITTLE too interested in Liz's men? First Max and then Kyle? "Noted"?? YUCK!!!

The power she "put forth" with Max? Didn't do much that's for sure! She just sort of stood there and watched as Max tried to save them, then pops in with "Yes" after the question, "and your young bride I see?" Could they have been referring to Liz? I'm not sure, but they thought Liz was part of the Pod Squad, which would mean maybe LIZ is the young bride and T is Vilandra? not sure if I really believe that, but..

More creepy moment with T - what about the flashes with CW's picture? And the questions? Were they really for HELPING purposes or was she trying to connect to CW for some other reason. Why flash back to that time in the warehouse? How convenient that she goes barging in on Iz and Nicholas at a key moment! Did she sense that maybe Nicholas was about to tell her something and she had to stop it since it wasn't "the right time"? Or was it just REALLY bad timing?

Iz gives her that snappy response of "you barged in before he could tell me anything" and T looks hurts - or was she just confused since her and Iz had been so close on Twilo (Iz as the betraying Vilandra and T as the ESA!)??

OK, Iz:
Who's Kivlar? (How do you spel THAT pesky name??) Grant? Someone we haven't seen? And how did Nicholas know where he was? If he's around, or in Copperstone (Hmm.. was it Copperpoint? ), why didn't HE seek out Iz? Don't you think he'd want to see her??

Courtney:
I'm not sure about this one. She seems all good and helpful, but did you notice she didn't even MENTION Vilandra! She knew who Mike was.. she knew who Max was.. so, she MUST have known who T and Iz were, right?? Well, then, why not through in this Vilandra theory that CW and Nicholas have approchaed Iz with?? She said she was working with CW, so.. CW knew.. she MUST have know! Hmmm....

If Courtney was one of these "rebel skins", then why'd they have her husk? Why'd they keep HER growing when obviously she wasn't in the Friendship League? Did they just grow husks for all the Skins?? And why would she REALLY rebel if she were dying?? Why not stay with the Skins until The Harvest and THEN go out and find Mike?? It all just doesn't make any sense to me...

OK, so I found it SO key that when the Pod Squad asks Max, "What do we do Max?" he replies, "LIZ"! Oh, that was the pivoltal moment in the Harvest!!! SO KEY!!

Yeah.. think I've rambled enough.. back to the grind..

anyhow I was thinking back to not so long ago when I took a class in college called The Goddess. We learned how anthropologists interpret signs and symbols to reveal goddess worship. The basic elements of the goddess were life, death and rebirth. Sound like anyone we know? How about ... Liz? This also ties in to the whole Liz as Venus thing since Venus was a goddess.
It's early and I'm not coherent yet so I'm going to go since I have work to do.
Bye!!

I know that one of the theories is that Liz is part alien. As we now know, in next week's episode all the humans vanish. I was thinking that this next episode may clear up the question of Liz being "changed" when Max healed her. If she's part alien, she won't vanish, and if she does, then she's human.

What do you guys think?

I know that one of the theories is that Liz is part alien. As we now know, in next week's episode all the humans vanish. I was thinking that this next episode may clear up the question of Liz being "changed" when Max healed her. If she's part alien, she won't vanish, and if she does, then she's human.

What do you guys think?

I think that's a great theory, except, do we know that only the humans vanish? As far as I know (now, I'm spoiler free, so that may have some effect on it) "everyone" just starts disappearing. It could be everyone that isn't directly connected to the Royal Four for all we know. Good thought though - maybe we'll have an answer - FINALLY! (But, I doubt it )

I just wanted to throw this into the mix and see what you guys thought of this theory. What if Courtney was Michael’s past love. If Izzy is Villandra (still have not made up my mind on this one), then we know that she was in love with the Skin leader, Kavar. The Mom-o-gram said that Mi/I were betrothed which is not a term I would use for a love filled engagement. I guess the reason I came to this conclusion was because of M/C kiss in EOTW. It just seemed like they were extremely attracted to each other even though it was not a romantic moment.

The use of the word “bride” to describe Tess is odd to me too. I did notice how Max’s powers did not seem to be any stronger with the help of Tess. I have to agree with everyone’s observations about Tess in this episode. I thought it was a creepy scene when Tess was looking at CW picture. Tess never tells Max that she remembered how much they loved each other, but how much he loved her. She also states during the “wick-trimming” scene that she didn’t ask to be Max’s mate.

Beth

Oh - and my husband had a point that I thought I'd throw out. He said that he thought that Tess gave the "let my power flow into you" line because her "forcefield" was a DIFFERENT COLOR (orange/yellow - the EA color) and she had to hide it.

I know that one of the theories is that Liz is part alien. As we now know, in next week's episode all the humans vanish. I was thinking that this next episode may clear up the question of Liz being "changed" when Max healed her. If she's part alien, she won't vanish, and if she does, then she's human.

What do you guys think?

I thought about that too! However, what if all people except THE ROYAL FOUR vanish. Then Liz may not be included. She could be of a different alien faction or simply THE FIFTH ELEMENT who completes the ROYAL FOUR but who would still vanish because she isn't actually part of the ROYAL FOUR. I think the ESA probably have control over who vanishes. Since, they probably think Liz is not special(human or half alien, whichever) they might make her vanish anyway.

I think the only reason THE ROYAL FOUR won't vanish is because the ESA don't want them to just yet. Think about it. They need the ROYAL FOUR to be alive(or not vanish, because I am not sure if when they vanish they are dead or not) so they can find out where the Granilith is.

So maybe Liz won't vanish and it will confirm at least that she is some how special (alien or not).

Or Liz will vanish and we still won't really know for sure if she is special(alien or not) because the ESA didn't see her as someone special(FIFTH ELEMENT OR PART OF THE ROYAL FOUR).

IF THERE IS A FIFTH ELEMENT MAYBE THE ESA DON'T KNOW IT YET!

I am glad someone else has thought of this though! But I realized that the writers probably will still find a way to keep Liz looking like a regular human for as long as possible. Afterall, I thought it could have been revealed in HARVEST when Max and Tess were trying to fight off the ESA. Liz could have stepped in and helped them out, but she doesn't realize she is special yet.

But who knows, it could happen next week! It is afterall November Sweeps!

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!
LIZ=THE FIFTH ELEMENT

There HAS to be a reason why Courtney is SO interested in Michael and I just can't believe that's it's simply because she thinks he would have been a better leader on planet Twilo! Nice theory, Beth!

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:

Oh - and my husband had a point that I thought I'd throw out. He said that he thought that Tess gave the "let my power flow into you" line because her "forcefield" was a DIFFERENT COLOR (orange/yellow - the EA color) and she had to hide it.

See THIS is why I need you guys - I didn't even notice the color difference!! One more reason to go back and rewatch (as if I need a reason )

B]

that's what i've been wondering also. with cw gone, liz and a podster would be cracking at the files and cds. how else would they learn anything if they don't go into the files. unless cw shredded everything pertaining to podsters. but w/ all those files couldn't have been shredded. if they would have done their homework, they would have been better prepared.

i don't know if it was the human component or what but it does seem that the skins remember what went on in their home planet and the podsters seem sort of clueless. understandably that this season is the exploration of the alien mythology, but how is it that the skins remember what went on? maybe it's because the royal 4 died and it's their essence, but i would think that some of the memories would be included? it just seems that tess is the only one that do some recalling on the memory but why not the others? tess is recalling some memories like the skins. so maybe tess is a skin from their planet as maybe a joining to join the 2 races together. when she died, her essence was included and became a hybrid that she is like m/m/i. maybe all the other skins are the same form on their planet and not infused w/ human compenents.

Now for Max and Liz - as co-leaders they are vital to each other. Their love and union creates the intangible "fifth element".
Not only does the "young bride" line keep them apart - it also plays against their strengths:

MAX - his biggest strength is his intuition - his ability to "follow his heart" and lead based on his instinct. He is made to DOUBT his ability to trust his heart - that has told him his entire life that Liz is "THE ONE".

LIZ - her greatest strength is her ability to see the big picture and make decisions based on logic. She is also willing to sacrifice to achieve a goal/outcome. All of these strengths get used against her.

second that motion. together liz and max are powerful. granted that max was still reeling from the kyle & liz "union", he seemed to be at a loss in the beginning of harvest while everyone else was thinking of what to do. when they were at the office, despite his hurt feelings, he was able to think about the next course of action, esp. since liz was around.

maybe on his planet, max and tess was a planet union to unite 2 races together, but his heart was w/ a fellow alien, liz. together they could have ruled the planet efficiently but with tension amongst the races, the only other solution was the union w/ a skin... tess.

maybe when the royal four was sent to earth, mom realized the importance of reason and sent liz's essence along on a later flight.

just a thought.

Also, did anyone else notice the screwy dates? Iz's b-day in Surprise was 10/25,(two weeks ago according to Harvest) EOTW took place around Halloween, but Harvest supposedly starts on the 26th.

Nitpicky, I know, but stuff like this bugs me.[/B]

CP - This stuff bugs me, too! Being the keeper of the "Dates," it makes it hard when the writers aren't consistent with their dates!! It is just sloppy writing. I put TEOTW at eith on 10/27 or 11/3 - the Friday before or after Halloween, and after Iz's birthday. Now we have Harvest with the letter - I'm going to have to rewatch it and I will post the dates as stated, even if it doesn't make sense. Also, we now know that the Skins came to Earth in 1950 (which I will add). I sure hope the Scooby Gang are pumping Courtney for information - she has to have a wealth of it, and I think she would be reliable, though biased towards Mikie G!

I also must say I wondered about the Parents - again. I know that I pulled a few all nighters telling my parents that I was at a friends that I wasn't (don't tell them ) - but these kids seem to never tell their parents anything (or maybe we are to assume it is done off camera?). I thought it was weird that they would hop in a car, drive for ?? long (I know it was mentioned) and not bring a change of clothes or anything. Okay, I'm being nit picky - but, I expect top notch quality from this show, and lapses like this bug me, too.

BTW - Last night before I feel asleep I thought of something "so important," but now I can't remember it .... I hate when I do that - but a body has to sleep!

Zero

I just like all your guys ideas and any place that is pro- Liz is great in my opinon.
Since Liz is my favorite character.

I dont know if this was brough up before but I was just wondering about it.

Tess talkin to CW adoptive mother about CW with the picture. The fact that they went back to the surprise episode made me think aobut what really happened with CW and Tess. I mean maybe Tess wasnt really kidnapped by Whittaker maybe she had planned to make it seems like Whittaker took her all along. We all know Tess can give people images that arent really there so maybe she was doing her mind warping again with Isabel. I just couldn't get over the fact that when Tess was getting those images of CW and her I thought they were going to show us what really happened with her and CW, and then all her questions about what Whittakerr was like when she was her age, it was liek she was trying to say Whittaker was like her role model or something. It just creeped me out.

_lover

Couple of things - I also wondered WHY Courtney's husk was there, and so conveniently located!! I also wonder about the Skin rebels, and how they all fit in to the whole picture. I trust Courney, but there could be lots of hidden agendas floating around!

Finally, what I thought of last night. Remember when we saw all the beepers going off, and that Backstreet Boy states "It has begun!" with us all assuming that he was a bad alien. I still say that there are other aliens (we know of three types already - Skins, Hybrids and Shapeshifters) living on Earth from all sides of the conflict. The beepers could belong to a variety of them - good and bad - since it is a civil war, the technology of the beepers might be held by both sides. The beepers going off could be a warning to both sides to prepare for battle. Does this make sense??

Zero

Courtney said their planet was on the verge of a golden age when Max, in her opinion, caused the revolution. Why? Could it be that his young bride wasn't approved of by his people? Could that person have been GC? Liz being her granddaughter could explain the atraction. Much like the plot line in "Hook". Maybe GC escaped to earth, and Max arranged to have the "Royal Four" to be sent after her. (Okay, far fetched so far, but here is the rest.)This group having a "fake" bride in order to protect the real "bride". Tess may be so quick to claim her position as the bride, because it is her job. Maybe she is just throwing the suspiscion off of Liz. (and maybe her hostility is a combo of jealousy and her knowledge of history.)

One last thought about Tess...while she was looking at the pic of CW, I had a strange feeling as well. But my husband said...."my God, it is Necado." Wow, that was a weird thought... I don't think this really applies to anything, but if she really was a man before and fell for CW, maybe that would explain the look of longing and the pain she expressed on her face about CW attacking her. Probably not! My hubbies comment (he doesn't know why that thought came to his mind) was as weird as that whole scene!!

~Sheri

It does except why would it go off when Mike approached it then? Unless each side had the beepers and they were programed to determine a GA vs EA? And maybe since Mike was worshiped by the Skins he was considered an EA and therefore, the beeper went off when HE approached and not Max? Oh.. or maybe not

Finally, what I thought of last night. Remember when we saw all the beepers going off, and that Backstreet Boy states "It has begun!" with us all assuming that he was a bad alien. I still say that there are other aliens (we know of three types already - Skins, Hybrids and Shapeshifters) living on Earth from all sides of the conflict. The beepers could belong to a variety of them - good and bad - since it is a civil war, the technology of the beepers might be held by both sides. The beepers going off could be a warning to both sides to prepare for battle. Does this make sense??

Zero

I think it does :-) - I would think that it is likely that there are different alien "factions" on earth. I also think its possible that there may be hybrids from the skins procreating with humans - or shapeshifters/humans.

Another interesting observation - I noticed in "Harvest" that Liz was waering a band on her wedding-ring finger. (also - does anyone know what the charm on her necklace was???)Someone on a spoiler board rewatched EOTW and posted that she did NOT have the ring on during that episode.
A minor detail - but I think it fits Liz's personality - after EOTW she is "married" to Max in her heart. I think maybe Liz put on the ring becasue she considers herself eternally faithful to Max now. EOTW "sealed" sealed that for her.

This has always bugged me to no end. If the podsters were supposed to be these "beloved" leaders on Twilo and they're so important, then WHY wouldn't they remember ANYTHING about the past life?? Or even HOW TO LEAD?! Why wouldn't Max remember *loving* Tess? They seem to know at least a *few* things... from very early on they've ALWAYS known they were different then everyone else (and why). They knew about their gifts (although they could have just stumbled on those). WHY wouldn't they remember anything else? Barring how much Tess *remembers*, the only one so far that has even SEEN Twilo (besides Nasedo), is (possibly) Liz via the flashes SH. How ironic!

The way Nikolas spoke of the "royal four", it almost seemed as if they were revered by ALL inhabitants of Twilo at one time or another. "Only if the people could see you now". "You seem to have lost some of that legendary aura that has been built up over the years." (I believe that "aura" line was a little shout out to the books, but I've never read the Roswell High series, so I can't be sure) Ok, I know I'm not getting those quotes exact, but they're very close. Could it be because they were presumedly royalty (hence from a *special/gifted* bloodline) that they're the only ones that had "the aura" (or power?) to garner the reverie of so many? Yet, whether they actually deserved this reverie or not is the question.

I don't know how much credence we're supposed to give to what Courtney says in Harvest... but acc. to her... King Max was a shoddy leader. Michael, his 2nd, might have been torn by either rebelling against Max or sticking with him (he chose to stick with him). Isabel (Vilandra), fell in love with a Skin and betrayed her people (and herself) for him. Tess, the King's "bride" (if Max was as influenced then as he is now by the woman in his life), possibly a bad influence on his rule and the wrong complement for a leader? Is THIS why the podsters don't remember ANYTHING about the past life?? The Podians attempting to start a "clean slate" on Earth with their "legendary" ROYAL FOUR? Earth possibly chosen because of the effect it has on Skin physiology? This "clean slate" starting with their very programming (no memory of the terrible leaders they were on Twilo?).

If this is the case, could Tess have either been lying about *remembering* the seeming positive things she remembers or she DOES remember things but these are false memories possibly fed to her by Edsedo (in an attempt to secure the alien plan and thwart the circumstances of the past life)? Possibly because it's ONLY the ROYAL FOUR that can save Twilo / Earth (they're they ONLY ones with this "legendary [special?] aura", the chosen ones), but the Podians needed to make sure that they're not the same people they were on Twilo? Hence the false/new/absent memories.

Where does Liz fit in all of this? If Tess was indeed a negative complement to the leader... could Liz be the positive (and is her presence predicted/known by the Podians or the Skins)? Could both know there is a "fifth" factor, but not know what it is? Liz has basically seperated herself from Max. If she's the true (vital) complement, could this be a dangerous time for the podsters? Will Max truly be able to lead w/out Liz by his side? Will he be able to lead w/out the (probable) key to the destiny (possibly the balance that was lacking in the past life)?

I've got another question for all of you, it's been speculated that Liz's *presence* amongst some of the healings contributes to the power of the "royal four". The Nas healing in "Destiny", Michael's healing in "Balance", and her absence in Nas healing "Ask Not" is why the FOUR failed in healing Nas etc ... could Liz's mere presence in "Harvest", Max holding off the Skins (w/ Tess' "help", ahem), might she have also been contributing to his power (specifically) and not know it?

Melodious

Melodious

I think so! If you notice time and time again that Liz is present when things "go correctly" and absent when things "go wrong". No need to name each occasion, but it seems to be a trend!

Either a) she's a key factor predetermined to be so by the Aliens on planet Twilo...

OR..

b) she's a key factor based on the love that Max has for her (which is either from something now or predetermined)!

Either way.. she's a key factor!!!

Either a) she's a key factor predetermined to be so by the Aliens on planet Twilo...

OR..

b) she's a key factor based on the love that Max has for her (which is either from something now or predetermined)!

Either way.. [b]she's a key factor!!! [/B]

Although this is all a little spooky imo... If it's at all true that Liz's mere presence (aura? essence?) is all that is needed to contribute as the deciding factor in success / failure.... she seemingly doesn't even have to *concentrate* as the podsters need to or need any extra help a la healing stone (she just has to *be there*)... how POWERFUL is Liz? Or how powerful is the aura or essence that's possibly in her?? And if she is indeed so powerful, why don't the Skins see/sense it?

I'd only wish Liz had stepped up and "lent her energy" to Max while holding off those Skins. Just to see what would happen. It's known that humans can contribute to *alien rituals* as well (The combined energies, human & podster, in "Balance")... If Liz, in an attempt to help Max/Tess, ran up and contributed *her energy* (combined energy, just like in "Balance")... would the Skins have all been blown away?

Melodious

So, as I suspected, Liz is keeping Max at arms length. Where do they go from here?

It's that word again, "bride". How long does a day last on Twilo?

Courtney's faction wanted Michael to betray Max. Maybe this was because the bad decisions Max made were to ally the Royal house with a different alien faction, alienating the skins somewhat.

WR

( BTW - Shapshifter, QFanny, saw your web page. Good job. :smile: )

Melodious

I was LITERALLY yelling at the screen, "GO LIZ - GET UP THERE - HELP THEM!! Do some sort of hexy-voodoo-moodey on them!!!" My neighbors must think I'm nuts since they know I live alone!

Well, off for the night, see you guys tomorrow!!

I was guessing that in "Wipeout" all the humans will disappear b/c of the street scene in the promo. Also we see the Sherriff, Kyle, and from Max and Isabel's hugging, I'm guessing their folks disappear, too. I think it's going to be a pretty cool episode!

I'm just kind of wondering if the writers forsee Liz being a part of the fab four. Yet, if she is so integral, then why all the to do about the EOTW?

BTW, has anyone else realized you can draw Aries over the healing circle in Balance, and then if you draw the symbol from into the woods over that the right way, a line goes over every star? OH, and the Balance symbol yet again has the 5 in it - side side side of triangle (or corner), than the lines. hmmmm, interesting!

-gij

Mel - I was think that very scene when I rewatched the episode. Also notice - when head Skin comments that "you must be the bride" (there's that word again), "I remember you...." He seems to aim his blast not at Max but at Tess. Does anyone else notice this?? Liz is left behind, but I also wonder how she plays into the "complementing Max's power" factor!

Zero

I've read all your theories about Liz's 3 lifes (RLR, Sliding Doors); I'm not convinced the writers could be quite this complicated. The more I see, the more I think she is human, with something extra to account for the flashes. Sorry, no inspiration here on that one; I'll just have to keep following your discussions!

Re: Max's being a poor, ineffective leader. Do you think this is really true or just made up by his enemies? The Momogram called him the beloved leader of his people. If he were such a poor leader, even perhaps being of royal descent, as the war on the home planet worsened, wouldn't people turn to a better leader? I can't believe Courtney's account is true. I think she is making mischief between Michael and Max. I think that whatever qualities Max had in the past, he would similarly have now. On earth he has shown himself to be slow to make a decision at times, but when the decision has been made, it has been the right one in contrast to Michael's going off on any tangent that arises. Max has always had leadership qualities and Michael has always been the 2nd in command from the pilot on.

Hey, I loved someones mentioning of the ring on Liz's finger. I hope it is meant to show us her continued loyalty to Max no matter what!!
Chica

a little inside joke among us posters. It's a reference to Planet Twilo from the Dick Van Dyke show--something about the aliens eating walnuts. I had a crush on DVD when I was a little girl and always watched the show, but, like Max & Is & Mi, I have no memory of that time

About the revolution on the Roswellian Twilo (not it's name on the show... yet): I'm once again thinking of the Collective Consciousness from the Roswell High books.

Okay, about Liz: Is Kyle really going to tell Max that Liz had sex with him? I'm remembering that line last season where Kyle said he was going to wait until he had something to destroy Max.
And what's up with Liz telling Max she "made a mistake" when she slept with Kyle?

So now there are TWO traitors:
Isabel supposedly Vilandra and Michael. So what if they WERE great loves and they betrayed Max together, but this Kavlar guy was always in love w/her and is trying to say she helped his side since everyone seems to know that the podsters don't remember a dang thing. And what was up w/Tess was she remembering what happened in Surprise or was she sad that CW died and HER plan was put on hold. Man this show is getting better for me.

This has always bugged me to no end. If the podsters were supposed to be these "beloved" leaders on Twilo and they're so important, then WHY wouldn't they remember ANYTHING about the past life?? Or even HOW TO LEAD?! Why wouldn't Max remember *loving* Tess? They seem to know at least a *few* things... from very early on they've ALWAYS known they were different then everyone else (and why). They knew about their gifts (although they could have just stumbled on those). WHY wouldn't they remember anything else? Barring how much Tess *remembers*, the only one so far that has even SEEN Twilo (besides Nasedo), is (possibly) Liz via the flashes SH. How ironic!

I don't know how much credence we're supposed to give to what Courtney says in Harvest... but acc. to her... King Max was a shoddy leader. Michael, his 2nd, might have been torn by either rebelling against Max or sticking with him (he chose to stick with him). Isabel (Vilandra), fell in love with a Skin and betrayed her people (and herself) for him. Tess, the King's "bride" (if Max was as influenced then as he is now by the woman in his life), possibly a bad influence on his rule and the wrong complement for a leader? Is THIS why the podsters don't remember ANYTHING about the past life?? The Podians attempting to start a "clean slate" on Earth with their "legendary" ROYAL FOUR? Earth possibly chosen because of the effect it has on Skin physiology? This "clean slate" starting with their very programming (no memory of the terrible leaders they were on Twilo?).

Geez Mel, it's like you're reading my mind! Here's my take:

I think the Royal 4's lack of memories part of a deliberate attempt to help them forge a new destiny. I don't think that Tess's memories are authentic, but I don't think she knows that yet. It always bugged me that the Mommogram called Max the "beloved" leader of his people, not the wise leader, or the strong leader, etc. It also seems strange that they had so little knowledge of their powers, arguably their greatest assets. Mom basically told them that they had to re-learn all their skills, including leadership, to help their people, probably because everything went to hell the first time around. But why no specifics? Like with FM in EOTW, if it's a bad idea to know too much of your future, couldn't it also be an equally bad idea to know too much about your past?

Also, Mom never said that M/T and Mi/I are supposed to pair up on earth, it was just something they (with help from Nasedo) assumed. I do believe that the 4 make the "complete unit" as couples or not. This is why Vilandra the betrayer was sent with them. On earth, she is still a vital part of the group, but her slate is clean.

Some interesting things, if anyone has thoughts on them:

-The repeated theme of history repeating itself (CW in Surprise, Courtney in Harvest, and basically all of EOTW). Also funny that In Sof47, Michael is failing history.

-Like the "young bride" thing, no one refers to them as the "Royal 4" except Nasedo in S&B and the skins in Harvest.

-Looking back after Harvest I really think Tess has some connection to the CW/Skins

I'm still working on how Liz fits into all this, so I'll be back later!

*********************************************

Chica -
You are right - the term "bride" could be a coincidence. BUT - if so it makes possibly even LESS sense that the GA would send a "BRIDE" to earth. Like I mentioned before - there the implication is that she is meant to mate - not a co-battle fighter. And - as I have mentioned before - leaders fighting cosmic battles do NOT need a pretty young bride to distract them - and they certianly dont need infants to worry about (as Tess claimed her purpose was to bear Max's little babies). AND - as we have all speculated if it was an arranged marriage - one that Max resented - then I would think she would be even MORE of an inconvenience (super powers nonwithstanding).
Tess has proved herself to be selfish, secretive, cold, disloyal (if she is supposed to love Max whats she doing lusting after Kyle), emotionally volatile(outburst in EOTW) and immature. None of these charachteristsics would seem to support the theory that she was this super valuable person that HAD to be sent to earth despite the considerable risk of sending someone who would weaken Max by giving him responsibilities/liabilities that he had to protect WHILE saving the world.
If they had been married for 50 years and had co-dependant powers and worked as aan inseperable team - then I could see sending a wife for him (hey - that description sounds like LIZ!!!) - but a manipulative, volatile, self-serving little young "bride" for his "mating" purposes - I just HAVE to be suspicious.

Add that to the suspicious reference by the EA to "this must be the BRIDE". Even if on Twilo the two were killed on their wedding day (which the EA would remember) - the EA would see them together - ASSUME they had been together for their 50-some years on earth - and she would rightfully be the QUEEN by now. In fact she would have been the queen the moment she and Max "consummated" <gag> <gag> - and if the EA leader guy WASNT "in on Tess's true identity" - I am sure one look at little Miss "Dolly Parton without the jugs" and he would assume that she and Max "KNEW" each other in the Biblical sense of the word.
It just seemed to me when I hear the word "bride" used again by the EA that it was reminicist of the murder suspect who is questioned about the crime and says "have you found the GUN yet" - when noone told them the crime was even comittied with a gun.
Makes you go "hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm"

And Courtney's comment "Trust me - NO ONE is after Tess" has a little more weight to it now that she knows all about the EA and their operations. In fact - had she said that in Harvest - I am sure they would have JUMPED on it immediately.

I just had a thought about Courtney - what if her appeal to "Mickey G" IS part of an alien plot to subvert the podsters. She is truly in on CW and Tess and all the plotting - BUT she is personally motivated by the fact that she is madly in love with Michael. Perhaps she has been told that by betraying the podters - they will spare Michael for her. In a way - that would make her parallel to Liz in away - willing to sacrifice everything - not to save the podsters or the earth (in fact she will sacrifice them in the meantime) but to save her "love".

OBVIOUSLY - Tess knows about Vilandra and knows that CW said it was Isabel. I certianly assumed when I watched
Suprise" that Tess was concious at the time.
Even if she was somehow awake enough to moana nd send Isabel flashes - but not awake enough to hear anything CW said - she was obviously interrogated BEFORE CW got to Isabel - so she would STILL know.
So - why is Tess not saying anything. When she conveniently found the "Vilandra" envelope - she didnt offer any information or
confront Isabel about it. Its like she is helping Isabel hide it - without even making anm alliance with Isabel (If she is so eager to be accepted by the podsters - seems like she would say to Isabel "this can be just between us". But NOPE - Tess is making it seem like she is clueless about Vilandra.
Why would she do that???????
The only thing that makes sense is that the "Vilandra Project" is an attempt to turn the podsters against each other.

Also - WHY would Nicholas take Isabel to the "harvest room" to confront her - seems they would gurad that thing like the granolith. And HOW did Courney know to go down there BEFORE stopping by the "Friendship Leauge". It would make MUCH more sense that the captured podsters would be held in their headquarters.

I think we should also consider that we know nothing about the way Planet Twilo's "system" works, so to speak. We don't know HOW they marry - how long it takes to get married - or even what kind of ceremonies are perfromed for marriage.

quote:
Re: Max's being a poor, ineffective leader. Do you think this is really true or just made up by his enemies? The Momogram called him the beloved leader of his people. If he were such a poor leader, even perhaps being of royal descent, as the war on the home planet worsened, wouldn't people turn to a better leader? I can't believe Courtney's account is true. I think she is making mischief between Michael and Max. I think that whatever qualities Max had in the past, he would similarly have now. On earth he has shown himself to be slow to make a decision at times, but when the decision has been made, it has been the right one in contrast to Michael's going off on any tangent that arises. Max has always had leadership qualities and Michael has always been the 2nd in command from the pilot on.

I think you may have a good point! Who's to say that Courtney isn't telling the truth, that maybe Mike DID want to have a joint-union between Skins and Aliens, yet Max KNEW that this would cause some sort of detramental disaster? Maybe this joint-union would have eventually caused the demise of M/Mi/I? Who knows.. I'm not 100% behind the idea that Max wasn't a good leader and Courtney and these "rebels skins" are out for "the good of the people". Just seems too copasetic, don't ya think!?

Chica - I think this is an excellent point and a very real possibility. Tess's betrayal could be the thing that will bind them together. Right now M/M/I and Liz seem to be fragmenting - each fighting their own personal struggle - Tess could be the negative factor that will bring them together and make them stronger.

Here is where I am confused - maybe someone can help:

Mom-o-gram - says Max was the BELOVED leader and implies that the podsters worked together as a unit. Says that the GA were "enslaved" by the EA.

CW - says that there was a conflict and Vilandra defected to the skins - thus sacrificing her race and herself. Betraying Max destroyed her race.
Says the skins are now on the throne of their planet.

Courtney - says that their world was on the versge of a "golden era" that everything was wonderful but that Max was the one who somehow caused the war. That if Michael had betrayed Max everything would have been saved.
Claims to be part of a "rebel" skin faction that opposed Max. Yet claims the rest of the skins were against the "rebels".

Now - I can not figure out any scanario where all three of these claims will fit together.
The only thing that makes any sense at all is if Courtney is part of a rebel alliance of GOOD ALIENS that had defected to the skins.
I cant figure out how she could be a rebel skin and still want to overthrow and betray Max.

Anyone have a scenario that works?? I can reconcile the mom-o-grama nd the Vilandra story - but I cant figure out who a rebel skin alliance would fit in. If the skins WANTED a war and to enslave the GA - and a small rebel faction wanted peace - why/how would the betrayal of Max have lead to peace and harmony? Courtney says the EA "arent Michael supporters" - so how would having him on the throne have appeased them?

The only thing I can think is this:

Max wanted the GA's to be in charge and the Skins to be banished/killed. (Skins didn't like it).

Michael wanted the Skins and GA's to unite as one and live in harmony. (Skins didn't like it).

The GA's didn't want to share it with the Skins, so they thought Max was their "beloved leader".

The Skins didn't want to unite with the GA's, hence the reason they didn't like Michael OR Max's plan.

This way the "rebel Skins" were for a unification, while the "regular Skins" were all for simply taking over the planet.

Make sense!?!

Max wanted the GA's to be in charge and the Skins to be banished/killed. (Skins didn't like it).

Michael wanted the Skins and GA's to unite as one and live in harmony. (Skins didn't like it).

The GA's didn't want to share it with the Skins, so they thought Max was their "beloved leader".

The Skins didn't want to unite with the GA's, hence the reason they didn't like Michael OR Max's plan.

This way the "rebel Skins" were for a unification, while the "regular Skins" were all for simply taking over the planet.

Make sense!?!

I think so BUT - I still cant see how Michael would have brought peace. If neither the GA or the EA wanted unification - how is Max's betrayal/Michael on the throne the key to unification???
Its like in one scenario (Vilandra) - Max's betrayal brings power to the EA and destroys the GA - so how does Max's betrayal "save the day" for the GA under Courtney's "plan"????

I don't think is does.. or would have.. hence the reason Mike never betrayed Max. I think Courtney was HOPING for that and that's maybe why she thought it was the best solution, but.. just because SHE thinks it would have been the best, doesn't mean it would have!

IMHO! (Or, they could all be lying and I'm speculating over nothing )

I agree. And if they DID send them back as "goofed up" aliens, then why not give them some of the memories of how they goofed up as to ASSURE a different future?

It doesn't make sense to send a group of aliens that made mistakes in the past, to the past, without any knowledge of why or how to do things differently in the future.

What are we missing? (and could Liz be that key??) Could it have been that Liz was needed in life that once was to create an entire unit? Could it be that Max HAD to go back and meet Liz, save her, connect with her, etc.? Could it be that with Liz by their sides their BOND to make the correct decisions based on the sole presence of her and the "powers within" her? I'll go back to whomever said it a long time ago, "Just HOW POWERFUL is she!?"

Maybe Liz was Max's "true" love on his home world. But, he was forced to marry Tess for political reasons. If Tess IS a skin, then it would explain why she didn't immediately reach out to help Max hold off the evil aliens in Harvest. Perhaps the scenes of Tess being "tortured" by the Congresswoman were staged to make Iz THINK Tess was in danger. And, did Iz REALLY destroy the Congresswoman-or-was that just another "mind trick" of Tess's??

Is it Monday yet?
Tam

I totally agree with this theory! I think Tess is a Skin. Maybe the good kind like Courtney....maybe not, but we do know there are good Skins.

I also agree about the Tess/CW mom, sister idea....separated when coming to Earth...could not reunite due to wrenching up the infiltration of the podsters and now, no goodbyes. I hadn't thought of the Tess staging the CW death but I think now that the Harvest was ruined (except for Courtney????) CW is dead.

I definitely think Grant is Kavar....Vilandra's love for which she betrayed her people and brother. It seems a lot of things made sense to me after Harvest. Vilandra, Courtney, M/Maria, ....

Now, Courtney has set up an entire new conflict....Michael vs. Max ....is this true or all a set-up. If it's true then Max did screw up on the Planet as ruler. Maybe he messed up because he didn't want to marry Tess, he loved Liz, absolutely refused and revolted into war (Sean Connery pretending to bow in First Knight then retaliating) except Max and his people got whipped. His mother didn't say anything about that because she didn't want to discourage him and if he and Tess finally get together then his planet will be saved....that's why Mom said "young bride" in such a pleasant way , because you always do what your mother says

Just random thoughts...can't wait for next week. Who thinks the "ladies man" Skin will show up again????? What is his role? If they keep introducing characters I'm never gonna get this thing figured out. I love it!

The ladies man Skin? What did I miss!?

i agree. if they goofed up on their planet, they should at least have some recollection as to what went on there so that they wouldn't repeat the same mistakes again. w/o that knowledge, they are defenseless to whatever attacks would ensue. if tess could do some of that retreval memory exercises, why hasn't she should m/m/i how to do it? i would have thought by know that she would have taught them.

i still think that after the royal four's essences were sent, the fifth element, liz was sent on a later date so as to help the podsters. or she was smuggled on board w/ the podsters w/o the skins knowing. if the skins knew, they would try possible stop it b/c she is the link. they possible could have used the granolith to return back into time to eliminate the fifth element so that the podster wouldn't connect to be powerful. i mean that the podsters could connect but w/ the fifth element, it would be so much stronger.

just rambling on.

You are most likely correct. But just to play the devil's advocate, he could have been horrified that they were shedding (dying), and he could have been killed by a Michael Worshipper. AND, if this means that CW was a MW, then Courtney and CW would be from the same team.

Slightly more real: Nasedo was a father figure to Tess and the Podsters, and in his Piercedo role in which he 'diddled' CW, CW could be considered to be sort of a stepmother, hence Isabel's 'like a mother' comment.

Slightly more real: Nasedo was a father figure to Tess and the Podsters, and in his Piercedo role in which he 'diddled' CW, CW could be considered to be sort of a stepmother, hence Isabel's 'like a mother' comment.

So.. here's a thought.. if Courtney and CW were on the same team why would CW kill Nasedo? She said she did it to protect Vilandra/Is, but why would Nasedo hurt Is? Did he just not know about what had happened on the planet? The Vilandra thing? That doesn't make sense.. he knew everything else!

And why did CW have Courtney's picture in her office? AND why did CW have Liz taped on CD? Was CW trying to figure out how important Liz was?

All these questions.. where's Jason Katims when you need him!?!?

CW maintained an active role in Congress being a Skin so it's possible Tess could have!?!?!?!?!

BTW which Skin ran through Tess's house that night she and Max had a midnight stroll? (probably CW since she was very interested in Tess. her conversation with Liz, CW thinking she was Vilandra...etc.

CW said she killed Nasedo to save Vilandra from the others. So she probably was an Evil Skin not a MW.

"ladies man" Skin - younger brother to CW. In the harvest room where all the husks were he said that to Isabel. "on our planet I was quite the ladies man. You even turned your eyes my way a time or two. (that's not an exact quote but very close)

I still say Tess is related to the Skins - not because anti-Tess feelings just because she hasn't meshed yet. Peculiar behavior in harvest.

The whole outbreak of war could be related to Vilandra's betrayal...maybe this happened on Max's wedding day?????

ANyone have anymore "S" names or telling numbers from Harvest? Besides the number 50....not that 50 means anything but there's that 5 again.

I think CW taped Liz to get to the others...I don't think she realized the importance of Liz.

Just random thoughts! I love this thread!

Is it Monday yet?
Tam

Tess as a skin? I really can't see that. They want the Granolith, and Tess knows where it is. Why doesn't she tell them?

Earlier, someone was thinking of situations that would have a split in the Skin's faction, wanting a new leader. How about this one, similar to Nazi Germany.
The Skins are bent on the domination of the planet. King Max is bent on resisting, along with his allies. A faction within the Skins wants a peace deal wherebye they overthrow their laeder, ally with King Max, and turn on one of King Max's current allies, who they perceive as a common enemy (a la Soviet Union). Like Churchill, he refuses. However, in the meeting, Michael lets slip that he wants Max to agree to this deal. So the Skins faction try to persuade Michael to usurp Max's throne so they can act on this plan. But his loyalty is firm.

WR

This is rather big assuming on my part, but I get the impression that Max/Michael/Iz/Tess were the ONLY ONES that could be sent for whatever reason. Possibly because they were in the right bloodline (w/ this "legendary aura")? They were the *chosen ones* (because of this "aura")? They were different then all others on their planet (but that doesn't mean they always made the right decisions)? Nikolas - presumedly their enemy - even made me feel that the "royal four" were VERY special on Twilo, (possibly) revered by all. "Four" of a kind. Almost like they're (were) worshipped or something.

Playing with "the evil within" momogram line a bit... what if it was a metaphor of some kind? "You all must defeat the evil/enemy within yourselves before you can succeed"? This would sort of fit in with all the Buddha motife of Season 2. Season 2 = The podsters search for enlightment? Of course, HOW can they defeat this "enemy within themselves" if they don't remember anything about this particular "enemy"?!

This leads me back to the podsters *programming*. Since the podsters are engineered beings... I have to think, in an attempt (maybe a futile one) to *right* what went *wrong* with their legendary Royal Four (whose powers are supposed to complement each other); some of the Podians attempted *reprogramming* the royals. Trying to erase/correct their psyches to be these perfect leaders? Tess, because she was raised by one of the "alien plan supporters" (Edsedo probably influenced / induced / accentuated those possibly false memories), probably does indeed remember some things which she believes to be authentic... Whether they actually are or not...? So if it's Tess that helps the podsters *remember* things.... what they remember (via the "memory retrieval" process EDSEDO taught Tess) might not be true? What the "alien plan supporters" didn't realize is that it's not until the podsters remember and FACE these mistakes (as opposed to trying to 'shove them under the rug' perse) that they will ever succeed?

Melodious

It already seems that Liz is some kind of *channel* possibly for memory retrieval. Just before Tess (and *her* memory retrieval process) ever came into the story. Could this be the reason why Tess showed up in such a convenient time? Max could have possibly experienced something with Liz (and only Liz) he can't experience with Tess, this something (acc. to the "alien plan") Max *shouldn't* experience? Hence the alien plan MUST take effect NOW (Tess enters in "Crazy").

Could it be only via Liz, Max remembers *the truth*? How/why? Is there something different about Liz or her family that *other non-alien plan supporting Podians* (or Skin rebels, like Courtney) knew about? Hence Roswell wasn't only chosen because the Granilith (presumedly) was already there, but also because of something in Liz's bloodline (4 generations in Roswell, connection to the Granilith?)? When Liz was born Max/Mi/Iz's pods (the most important of the four?) were rigged to hatch in a time where they'd grow up with and know Liz? Could the crash itself have been set up also by these Podians that were against the "alien plan" (since the Skins presumedly didn't show up until 1950?).

Where were these (true?) memories coming from in SH? I've read the dozens of speculations over Liz's visions and apparent ability, the two I read most often are that the memories were coming from either deep within Max or the orb. I believe I've also read what I'm about to bring up... but what if the memories Liz was experiencing were coming (somehow) from the Granilith itself? The orbs possibly devices working in association (as well as probably all other alien devices, like remote controls, as Reggie has brought up before) with the Granliith? Hence, Liz was receiving messages / a signal from the orb, but the orb (like a satellite) was activated and/or being fed the "visions" to the orb to Liz via the Granilith?

Could there be a connection between Liz and the Granilith or a connection through her family to the Granilith? The four generations that were in Roswell... I wonder how long the Granilith has been in the Roswell area?? Ironically, Liz is the only one in the story thus far that knows *anything* concrete about it.

Could the Podians (possibly) on Earth (whom the Podians on Twilo didn't realize had *other* beliefs), manipulated the Granilith in some way? Which is why when Edsedo (Twilo Podian) went to *pick up* the podsters, he was surprised in finding only the *one* (that hatched on time) and the others were gone (protected by the Earth Podians, TicTac being one of them)? I suppose this is all really insane.

If the memories Liz was experiencing in SH are the *true* memories, she's also the only one (besides Nas and the Skins) that's seen something in the Twilonian universe (the *red giant*, a dying star? Liz possibly also knows -but it hasn't registered- that Twilo is dying [because the Granilith knows it's dying]? Literally or symbolically... because of environmental disturbance or because of the "conflict"?). Although, this would have to make the Granilith almost sentient to some degree I'd think, and it just might be, but I don't know if I can buy that.

Melodious

WR

If the memories Liz was experiencing in SH are the *true* memories, she's also the only one (besides Nas and the Skins) that's seen something in the Twilonian universe (the *red giant*, a dying star? Liz possibly also knows -but it hasn't registered- that Twilo is dying [because the Granilith knows it's dying]? Literally or symbolically... because of environmental disturbance or because of the "conflict"?). Although, this would have to make the Granilith almost sentient to some degree I'd think, and it just might be, but I don't know if I can buy that.

Melodious

In Summer of 47, didn't Tess say "Do you think it can hear us", or something along those lines when they first saw the Granilith?

Maybe the Granilith can only *hear* Liz? ...although, if this is the case... the Skins want the Granilith, and if only ONE person can operate it (or *allow it to be operated*), that person being Liz... the Skins are going to want her too right? ....I hope I'm not right.

What I mean by that above *allow it to be operated* line... we've only seen the Granilith "in action" ONCE. In 2014 when Future Max used it as a time machine to go back to 2000, but of course, (Future) Liz *was there*! Could this be yet another (possible) example of Liz being "the key" in an *alien ritual* (yet no one knows about it)? Could Liz be "the key" of the Granilith? ::cough::i'minsane::cough::

...and I think I spend just a little too much time in here! MUST do some homework!

Melodious

Maybe both are secret weapons in the pod squads arsenal, Excalibur to Max, the Once and Future King? Max will have to learn how to use their powers to save the world.

I don't think Tess is a skin, cuz they seem to be an itchy group, and flaky, too! I haven't seen Tess shed ever, so I don't think she is one of them. I do find it interesting how she is with the others when important things happen. Shouldn't they (M/Mi/I) be questioning their perceptions re: the book,Mom-o-gram, etc??? They know she can mess with people's minds, why are they accepting her at face-value? I don't think she is evil, but I don't think she "fits" the other 3. I mean, look at her! Short, curly blond hair. I dunno, I'll rack my tiny brain and try to come up with some scenarios for ya! I've got some "research" to conduct! Umm, after supper!

What I mean by that above *allow it to be operated* line... we've only seen the Granilith "in action" ONCE. In 2014 when Future Max used it as a time machine to go back to 2000, but of course, (Future) Liz *was there*! Could this be yet another (possible) example of Liz being "the key" in an *alien ritual* (yet no one knows about it)? Could Liz be "the key" of the Granilith? ::cough::i'minsane::cough::

...and I think I spend just a little too much time in here! MUST do some homework!

Melodious

******************************************

Melodious -
You have had some great thoughts tonight.
One comment I will make is that we dont REALLY know WHAT the EA are after. It may not be the granolith. In fact - in EOTW things pretty much seem to have gone to h*** for the GA yet they STILL maintain control of the granolith. If thats *all* the EA are after - seems like they would have taken it right away. Personally - I think they may be out to take over the Earth. Perhaps Twilo died years ago - or is dying. The EA are looking to take over the earth now - but they now that the royals are also hear to battle them - perhaps to join forces with the humans. Liz has been prophesied - the "fifth element" & the EA are trying to subvert the royals and at the same time find Liz. They asssume that she must be a hybrid - yet her essence was disguised fully in human form.
Maybe she IS the "key" as someone said.

BTW - IF the Roswell writers read this board a message for you - it would be REALLY nice to know the names of the warring factions so we could stop calling them GA and EA. :-) :-) I have a feeling that "good" and "bad" alien will prove to be too simple of terms.

It's nice to see a rundown of events specially me whose like way still in the middle of re-run back here at Phils.:D

Nice to see some clear views about the show and it's story and I'm beginning to see clearly that....ZERO,you definitely love liz!!Well,anyways...the timeline of roswell has been added at crashdown just like the one that you and the rest of the gang at these thread although I can't compare the two coz it's just so similar but then again..all of you were the first to do it right?.
See yah all again.
Bye!!

It already seems that Liz is some kind of *channel* possibly for memory retrieval. Just before Tess (and *her* memory retrieval process) ever came into the story. Could this be the reason why Tess showed up in such a convenient time? Max could have possibly experienced something with Liz (and only Liz) he can't experience with Tess, this something (acc. to the "alien plan") Max *shouldn't* experience? Hence the alien plan MUST take effect NOW (Tess enters in "Crazy").

********************************************'

Melodious - I always thought it was a little *too* conveneient for Tess to show up RIGHT after Tic-Tac finds L/M sleeping together in the dessert.

*********************************************
Where were these (true?) memories coming from in SH? I've read the dozens of speculations over Liz's visions and apparent ability, the two I read most often are that the memories were coming from either deep within Max or the orb. I believe I've also read what I'm about to bring up... but what if the memories Liz was experiencing were coming (somehow) from the Granilith itself? The orbs possibly devices working in association (as well as probably all other alien devices, like remote controls, as Reggie has brought up before) with the Granliith? Hence, Liz was receiving messages / a signal from the orb, but the orb (like a satellite) was activated and/or being fed the "visions" to the orb to Liz via the Granilith?

********************************************'

One interesting note - in the TRANSCRIPT for SH it states that when Max touches the glowing hickey that HE gets the flash of the military burying the orb. Which - I think - could imply that that memory was one buried within LIZ - something she experienced.
Also - in SH I think the writers go to great length to show that Liz/Max are the ONLY "channel" for these "memory flashes".

Tess as a skin? I really can't see that. They want the Granolith, and Tess knows where it is. Why doesn't she tell them?

Earlier, someone was thinking of situations that would have a split in the Skin's faction, wanting a new leader. How about this one, similar to Nazi Germany.
The Skins are bent on the domination of the planet. King Max is bent on resisting, along with his allies. A faction within the Skins wants a peace deal wherebye they overthrow their laeder, ally with King Max, and turn on one of King Max's current allies, who they perceive as a common enemy (a la Soviet Union). Like Churchill, he refuses. However, in the meeting, Michael lets slip that he wants Max to agree to this deal. So the Skins faction try to persuade Michael to usurp Max's throne so they can act on this plan. But his loyalty is firm.

WR

Thanks WR!!!! - and you are right about the Mom-o-gram - I just assumed it was the GA that were enslaved. Your Nazi/Churchill explanation also makes sense to me - I was having a very hard time seeing how the MW could have achieved peace via. Michael.

As for Tess - here is what I think - I think she is a "hybrid" created the old fashioned way. The result of a shapeshifter/human union.
I think Nasedo is her real father. This would explain why she has similar - but not identical powers with the podsters.

Last of my insanity tonight! I swear!! I agree with Starbox that TPTB have really made Max & Liz seemingly "the only channel for these memory flashes"...

2014: Future Max & Future Liz *together* in the Granilith room, activate it... Max is suddenly inside the Granilith, Liz reaches up and Max reaches for her... Liz is about to touch the Granilith, Max disappears. Yes, I'm insane, but I *almost* got the vibe that both might have been working in *unison* at the very moment Max dematerialized. (of course, I very well could be digging too)

(Ok, there's probably nothing here) All four podsters in the pod chamber or the Granilith room really have no obvious effect... but at the end of "Destiny"... Nasedo was healed, the momogram was revealed, a massive energy signal went out (from the Granilith?) alerting alien beepers everywhere (possibly on all sides) of the location of the "royal four" -- all this when Liz was present (despite adding *dramatic effect* blah di blah).

Max & Liz are the only ones that can run the Granilith? Which, from what we know, is extremely powerful; it could possibly have several uses. Besides being a "time machine", possibly a (massive) weapon too? Max is the "operator" and Liz is "the key" (or this could switch at will, but both positions need to be manned separately - neither could run it alone)? And I could REALLY go off on the speculations on this, but I'll refrain from doing that, because I think this is just all a little too insane to be probable. It's a romantic thought though. Although, if this is at all true, WHY would our mortal Liz be so blessed (cursed?) with such a responsability and by whom? Would it have been purposeful or accidental?

Melodious

That is an interesting theory that I was thinking of too----the possibility that Liz is somehow connected to the Granilith.

In Sexual Healing it was Max and Liz who found the orb/communicator. This only happened because of some strange "psychic" vibe they were tapping into when they were together. In that episode Liz says, "You know the mark went away because...because you touched it. Maybe... it came because we were away for...too long."

So even back then we were led to believe that together M&L had some energy force guiding them. Unfortunately with the change in direction of Roswell, a lot of those original ideas have been dangling.

There is no denying that Liz had something to do with finding the communicator---that she is somehow attune to alien things. Wouldn't it be great if Max needed Liz to activate the Granilith in the same way he needed her to find the communicator?

Scooby

This is the first chance I've had to get on here since Harvest. Great thoughts abound!

Zero- thank you for saying the beepers could belong to good and bad aliens. I've been saying this all along. How do we know Howie and company are bad?

Starbox- I thought the very same thing about the ring Liz was wearing!!! By Shapeshifters law it must be so !!

Steph- you wondered about Courtney not telling Michael and Maria about Vilandra - what if Courtney is Vilandra? Think about it , she breaks those tubes betraying her people and also sacrificing herself. Nicholas could have been her brother, the brother she berayed. I thought it was interesting that the husks in the first room when Is went down the stairs were of Ida, Walt, Nicholas, Courtney, and the mailman. Were they somehow more important and kept therefore kept in a seperate room?

Here's a question I have - Why doesn't anyone question Max's sudden exceptance of Tess? I mean Is doesn't even look at Max oddly that he's alowing Tess to rest her head on his shoulder in the jeep.

OK, now for my thoughts on Harvest

1) I'm thinking CW's husbands death was no accident. Perhaps she killed him herself so she could take his place on the ballet for the seat in Congress, assuring the skins a high govt. position.

2) It kills my little dreamer heart to mention this because I so don't want Tess to be the real bride but... In ID Max talks to Liz on her balcony about Michael possibly leaving town. Max sits down outside her window and Liz reaches out and touches his shoulder with a tender loving touch. The way Max looks at Liz when she does this always struck me as odd, as if that particular touch were familiar to him. Now, I've noticed Tess touching Max in a similar manor - in TEOTW when they are on the park bench and in Harvest in the empty classroom. Someone please tell me I'm wrong about this similarity as my little dreamer heart is breaking

3) There is way too much secret keeping going on between our gang.

4) I find it interesting that Isabel has always expressed feeling vulnerable and the skins are playing on that vulnerability.

5) A long time ago I jokingly wondered if there's a connection between aliens and cornfields because the first beeper they show going off is in a farm house by a cornfield. In the X-files (I think it was in the movie) I remember a secret building beeing in the middle of a cornfield. Well, in Harvest we were shown the skins HUSHS which were about to be harvested. So there is a corn connection after all. I hope you all dont find this too corny. LOL

6) Intersting that Max chose to stop and ask the guy at the Stagecoach Museum about the UFL when there was a Tourist Information place right across the street.

7) There are pink flamingo's on the front lawn of the Crawfords house. Isn't that a strange lawn decoration for Arizona? I think of them more in FLORIDA! Hmmmmmm

8) RiverDog said Necedo called himself a VISITOR. When M/L/I/T are at the Crawfords house Ida yells to Walt - Walt VISITORS! Did she know who they were just by looking at them?

9) Walt says to Max while laughing -"I guess your the MAN IN CHARGE". I took this to mean Walt knew he was the king ang he laughed because he didn't see this teenage version as much of a threat.

10) GracKel - Did you notice there are 2 doors to the UFL building with diamond shapes in the glass of those doors - 2 (doors) of DIAMONDS! and also at the Crawfords home the door we see in the living room(?) has one big diamond in the center of the glass.

11) All I could think of when I heard that old Gene Autry(?) song Back in the Saddle was when you're back in the saddle you are going back to doing something you've done before, as in the war has begun again.

12) Isabel tells Tess you came CRASHING in before I had a chance to start a real conversation. In TEOTW I pointed out that when Tess is sitting outside the Crashdown the camera starts at the top of the sign and pans down but only on the word CRASH and then lands on Tess. I equate the word crash with trouble and I think Tess is trouble and this is thier little way of telling us this.

13) Why does the camera go so slowly by the husk(?) or maniquin in the stagecoach hearse. Was that a husk for Vilandra, since this was called the Vilandra project .

14) Was it just me or did Max seem to have a sudden look of recognition when T Grear starts scratching while they're by CW's corpse. It seemed like he recognized him not just as a skin but as a mortal enemy.

15) T Grear in his ulegy says - she never saught fame and fortune but when DESTINY called she answered the call of public servent. There's that word destiny again

16) The News cast the gang was watching in the empty classroom (why did they have a tv on in there anyway?) was UWN. There was a UWN truck outside the UFL as well as the reporter and cameraman who were skins. Should we assume that entire network is contaminated or run by skins?

17) I thiugh it was interesting when the husk chambers blew up and they run out we see a portion of a sign that says - copy- which is what the husks are.

18) at the end of the episode we see a spinning wheel on the Stagecoach. It's spinning counter clockwise.....just like Venus!!!

One of my favorite moments was the look Liz gave Max after she'd gained admission the the Crawfords home. They're still on the sidewalk and she looks back at him like hah I am needed and I did my job!!!!

It's just killing me seeing Max's heart breaking and watching Liz having to lye to him and seeing her in so much pain.

Agent Starstruck signing out for tonight!

I Shall Believe!

what doesn't make sense to me is that courtney says that Michael wanted peace for his planet and that Max was not a good leader. the thing is that Michael never uses pacifist actions he is the one who always wants to take someone out. Max on the other hand leads w/his heart. The only thing I can think of is that the did try and bring the two races together by marring tess who was a skin and instead it brought on a civil war. Because it seems by the momogram that his race still adored him and the skins abhored him.

what doesn't make sense to me is that courtney says that Michael wanted peace for his planet and that Max was not a good leader. the thing is that Michael never uses pacifist actions he is the one who always wants to take someone out. Max on the other hand leads w/his heart. The only thing I can think of is that the did try and bring the two races together by marring tess who was a skin and instead it brought on a civil war. Because it seems by the momogram that his race still adored him and the skins abhored him.

As for the lamp trimming with Kyle, I really don't think Tess had that much interest in Kyle. She was just so disgusted with her ignoble role in the Destiny plan, and the other podsters shunning her, that she just got mad and wanted to do something against "Destiny". In this case, "doing it" with someone of her own choosing, not the one she had been given to (like so much meat). It's rebellion aganst the Plan, not lust for Kyle. If it turns out Kyle's good, well... that's interesting. Or she could be just teasing Liz, forcing her to make stuff up or 'fess up. I still think Maria will realize that something is wrong with this picture, and worm the truth out of Liz.

I have some ideas about the Granilith that I'd like to share. I'm not sure if this topic is relative to this thread, but I just thought I'd throw out some ideas if anyone is interested.

The majority of people on the Roswell board seem to agree that the Granilith has something to do with energy. This got me thinking about The Balance.

quote:
River Dog: Nasedo gave me these stones. They're from his place. And they carry an energy inside them.

MAX: You mean, these are from...

River Dog: Wherever you are from. He said that his body carried the same energy that's in these stones. He called it the balance. He said that the heat from the sweat disrupted it in some way.

River Dog: He told me to hold the stones until my energy activated them. And the balance would be restored.

Max: And if you didn't

River Dog: He would die..... He warned me though, there was a risk. The balance can pull you in. It's a force that can change your body and your mind unless you navigate it properly.

---Stones from their planet with energy inside?---energy that helps sustain their life. In Summer of 47 we saw the aliens in a form surrounded by glowing energy, so we know that this is part of their natural state

-- "Change your body and your mind". In SH, both Max & Liz experienced changes to their mind(flashes)and body(glowing spots, heightened sexuality)

--Healing stones from their planet. The word Granilith means what? Stepping stone or rock I think. Energy and stones---a recurring subject.

In Summer of 47, Tess and Michael said this about the Granolith:
quote:
Tess: Sounds like the flourescent lights in bio lab

Michael: Did Nasedo ever mention a rock collection?

Of course Michael was only joking, but he did seem to associate the Granilith with the appearance of a rock. And Tess' odd comment suggests an energy source behind the Granilith.

So is there a connection between healing stones, alien physiology and the Granolith? How does the energy get inside the healing stones? Maybe the Granolith is like one big battery charger that creates these stones on their planet. But what does the energy do? It restores the balance, it restores their life. Is this why the Skins need it so badly?

I keep wondering why Nasedo died. Tess said he couldn't die. In Skin & Bones Max says, " I think whatever happened to him is...something we can't reverse." Not really a great explanation for his death. I think if they had used the Granilith(which is more powerful), instead of the stones, they might have been able to revive his energy state.

It's nice to see a rundown of events specially me whose like way still in the middle of re-run back here at Phils.:D

Nice to see some clear views about the show and it's story and I'm beginning to see clearly that....ZERO,you definitely love liz!!Well,anyways...the timeline of roswell has been added at crashdown just like the one that you and the rest of the gang at these thread although I can't compare the two coz it's just so similar but then again..all of you were the first to do it right?.
See yah all again.
Bye!!

Thanks Meg - and everyone else! (Zero blushes - ) I love this thread! It is so thought provoking!! BTW - I did start the Dateline due to all the research done by the many supporters of this thread and the questions raised. It is nice to find out that the Crashdown has adopted one - I have to check it out to see if theirs is as detailed (or maybe just a copy of ours).

Zero

Okay - now I will never be able to watch that scene without laughing!! How mature is that?

Zero

from starstruck
quote:[b]13) Why does the camera go so slowly by the husk(?) or maniquin in the stagecoach hearse. Was that a husk for Vilandra, since this was called the Vilandra project .[b]

I had a thought-probably unrelated. I watched part of Disney's Snow White & the 7 Dwarfs yesterday and didn't they have something similar (a glass coffin) in the show after Snow White died from eating the poisoned apple. kinda gave me a weird feeling of de ja vu. Could TPTB have watched too many disney movies? (couldn't resist that remark)

Also, what if Liz was alien and belonged to a mystical society where she was a guardian of the granolith. That's why she connects to the granolith w/accessories (pods)
Panola

Did you notice the emblem on Walt's cap? It looked like the logo of the DeKalb company. http://www.dekalb.com/images/hp_logo.jpg
They make seed varieties for various crops, especially corn -- I imagine 535 on the cap refers to one particular variety. But maybe you number theorists can find some other significance as well?

(From the web site it looks like DeKalb is now owned by Monsanto and is into genetic engineering?) http://www.dekalb.com

quote:
10) GracKel - Did you notice there are 2 doors to the UFL building with diamond shapes in the glass of those doors - 2 (doors) of DIAMONDS! and also at the Crawfords home the door we see in the living room(?) has one big diamond in the center of the glass.

Notice also the 2 sets of lights (left and right of Mr. Grier, just after the doors open), with 4 lights each.

Starstruck - Like you said, based on Shapeshifter's theory - since we both noted that the beepers could have been owned by good and bad aliens, it MUST be so!

Also - I too have a big wonder why Max doesn't wonder about Tess. He already knows that Liz has been talking to Tess to try to get T&M together. Also, Tess is living with Kyle. Then, all of a sudden, the night after (assuming any of the timeline this Season 2 makes any sense) Liz tries to fool Max into being with Tess, Max catches Liz sleeping (lying) with Kyle, AND Tess just happens to be strolling through the park late at night while Max mopes on the park bench. (They sure have a way of running into each other late at night in the park!) Then - Tess is all over him at any and every chance - granted, he does not seem to be pushing Tess away. However, he does seem suspecious of Liz. Ummmmm .....

Zero
"I shall believe!" (My new motto.)

What if the "keepers of the Granolith" turn out to be the Indians in the area?? And Liz is prophecized in Indian lore as the savior of humanity with the key to protecting it - by being the 5th element that complements the great leader from another planet that will come to Earth. Okay - it's out there, but it ties in a few theories, and ties up some big loose ends!!

Zero
"I shall believe!"

quote:What if the "keepers of the Granolith" turn out to be the Indians in the area?? And Liz is prophecized in Indian lore as the savior of humanity with the key to protecting it - by being the 5th element that complements the great leader from another planet that will come to Earth. Okay - it's out there, but it ties in a few theories, and ties up some big loose ends!!

Zero
"I shall believe!"

quote:or as Serephinah says
My idea was that Liz could be the fourth alien...not Tess. It would make sense then with the whole Granilith seeming to work when both FMax and FLiz were trying to use it. And a lot of other little things (i.e. orbs, wierd blue flash at end of "Destiny," etc.)

No body liked my comparison to Snow White's glass coffin huh. Well all I can say is Evita had a glass coffin too! I was thinking of it as a sign of idolizing. When Evita died masses and masses and masses of people attended her funeral, When Snow White ate the poisoned apple, she was deeply mourned.. I tried to see who the person looked like but couldn't tell. The whole town was creepy. It looked like a manequin in the background when the guy phoned in order to warn of the podsters arrival.
Was this person's idenity a clue? or just present to give us the creeps...
Panola

Zero
"I Shall Believe!"

Do you think TPTB read the same book?
Panola

quote: NEMO wrote: Did you notice the emblem on Walt's cap? It looked like the logo of the DeKalb company. http://www.dekalb.com/images/hp_logo.jpg
They make seed varieties for various crops, especially corn -- I imagine 535 on
the cap refers to one particular variety. But maybe you number theorists can
find some other significance as well?
(From the web site it looks like DeKalb is now owned by Monsanto and is into
genetic engineering?) ]http://www.dekalb.com[/quote][/quote][/b]

Nemo, excellent pick-up about DeKalb (I did not catch that name or the cap, I could only watch the ep once so far) and even more, for connecting to Monsanto. (If you have time, can you put this up at S&S? Thanks)

The Monsanto connection is most likely the VERY controversial (this year) harvesting of genetically engineered crops and the worlds largest selling herbicide (made by Monsanto and ) called "round up". This was an exam question on my toxicology exam.

There vociferous and forceful protests (including destruction of produce) prompted by the environmental and health hazards associated with the herbicide use prompted Monsanto to start to genetically engineer crops to resist be resistant to/withstand it's own herbicide: ie, corn (the recent controversy here and abroad about foods made from genetically engineered corn).
Ironically, the crops, protesters claim, require more than the single spray of the herbicide than the manufacturers claim.

I posted once about this genetic engineering, 'jumping genes' and insertional elements.

Roswell relevant concepts= hybridization, jumps in human evolution, junk DNA, etc. After S&B, I posed the possibility that the chemical plant for which Grant was surveying might be a fertilizer plant.

This ultimately prompted my post about
GERMPLASM
Please check out the SIGNS&SYMBOLS thread for more info, screencaps and fun links. http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/000381.html
(There are approximately 3 photos of Alex juxtaposed to the green 'rays' and the aliens hosing the cactus, a very suggestive scene on the Crashdown wall)

I wonder if this has to do with the Florida (agricultural??) connection and possibly MrE's visit to Minneapolis where there are very high tech biotech/engineering and agricultural centers.

This is recent science controversy, and cutting edge science (plant and animal genetic engineering to breed resistance, longevity, resistance to disease, specific characteristics - pertinent to Roswell??), and stuff of environmental science&health/ ecology/toxicology journals.

Plant motifs and references have been prominent in Roswell. I'm leaning towards corn (largest crop in US) and beans. I've been collecting screencaps to post and have recently found quite a few with fritos corn chips .

This raises the obvious question: what was Liz's importance/reason for being in Florida?

~~~~~~~ Rosta~~~~~ ~~~~

Looking back, I no longer think that Pete Parker's presence in Sof47 was just an interesting little tidbit, but rather a seed planted for something to come. Four generations of Parker's in Roswell--they have to know something!

Also, look at the nature of the Parker family business. In a town the size of Roswell, Parker's Bar was likely one of the main centers of activity. Pete would have been in a postion to be privy to all sorts of information. Now look at the present, where pretty much everyone and everything eventually passes through the Crashdown--it's the perfect lookout tower. Is the Parker family "interest" in aliens really just about business?

Is it possible that Liz's importance to the aliens is part of a family legacy? This could explain the mysteries that surround GC, as well. Looking at the posts from Panola and Zero, I wonder if maybe the Parker family is charged with protecting the Granolith. We already know from EOTW that Liz will be instrumental in uncovering it's power. And where the heck is that crystal key? It's possible since the crash, the Parkers were entrusted to keep it safe--possibly not even knowing its true purpose--until the Royal Four came of age, which would entwine Liz's destiny with theirs in yet another way.

2) It kills my little dreamer heart to mention this because I so don't want Tess to be the real bride but... In ID Max talks to Liz on her balcony about Michael possibly leaving town. Max sits down outside her window and Liz reaches out and touches his shoulder with a tender loving touch. The way Max looks at Liz when she does this always struck me as odd, as if that particular touch were familiar to him. Now, I've noticed Tess touching Max in a similar manor - in TEOTW when they are on the park bench and in Harvest in the empty classroom. Someone please tell me I'm wrong about this similarity as my little dreamer heart is breaking

StarStruck -
I always chalked weird looks at Liz's touch last season to general teen angst - the battle in Max between whether or not to allow himself to love Liz.
As for the similarity - I think Liz has touched Max like this more than once too - if it is a "bride" characteristic - it could just as easily be one authentic to Liz that Tess is purposefully copying.
Remember too - that Max has kissed Tess once and his response was that it felt "different" and that he didnt like it. If she is the true bride - surely he would have gotten a more positive feeling. In fact - it is AFTER he kisses her that he accuses her of being a shapeshifter.
I really trust Max's intuition. I think that it is one of his "powers" he has yet to truly unlock. He seems to be sensitive to getting impressions of "the evil within" and seems to know who to trust.

Reggie - as for Tess's interest in "lamp trimming" and Kyle's bedroom ability. I dont know if you are M or F but as a woman - I will say I definately picked up a "jealousy" vibe from Tess and think she is honestly attracted to Kyle & is ticked off that Liz was with him.

What do you guys think?

Just to make things more complicated, if you read the introduction to the show, you will see that Liz and Maria were out of town when the wipe out occurs. So TPTB are not going to let us know if Liz is part/alien that easily. They will still keep us guessing.

The other problem I have is that none of the humans seem to understand that they also have the energy, that they don't have the power to use it like Max and Michael on their own but they do have the energy flowing through them. If you work with massage at all you learn very quickly that humans have lots of energy, Liz could have offered her energy even if she is totally human, I believe they did not let her do this because she is special and it would have given it away when they did not want to.
I've been frustrated with the combined energy thing for a long time. The Royal 4 know that their powers are Human so why have they not thought to do the link up thing when they need increased energy. Together they stand separate they fall.

Also, what's with Isabel, letting that 'boy' slap her around without even defending herself with her powers. She did not do the Congress Woman in out of spite but as a self defence. The Royal 4 need to learn what they can do to stay alive.

This thread is very thought provoking. Thanks for keeping it on the board.

Max and Liz supporter
and
I Shall Believe

Hi CZECH PLEASE

Very good post. I think that the families in Roswell, especially the Parkers and the Evans, are very much involved in what may be a LONG lineage. They may be involved differently, but I think there will ba a deeper myth. The Grail/Holy Grail mythology fits quite nicely with Roswell, and further suggests that there is a 'Grail Family', or a great secret that is protected by a 'bloodline'. Two lineages ( lineage = vine symbolism in biblical, apocryphal, esoteric text, etc) have been displaced, 'lost', 'gone underground' to resurface. The right 'marriage' must take place.

Rosta

PS- Has anyone read, or in the process of reading 'The 8' by Katherine Neville. Very intersting. May have Roswell relevance. Hidden (8) pieces of a whole (chess set in this case) that have been kept separated for centuries because of the power for good or evil that will empower the holder of all the pieces together. A lot of Grail symbolism.

I'm still reading your insights from last night, but here's my first thought og the day.

Liz seems to be able to see important information everytime she touches/kissing Max, so.. why not just put Max and Liz in a room with some romantic music and candelight and let them make out for a couple weeks (maybe through Maria in the corner to take notes)? Seems like they might get all the answers that way!!!

Did you guys notice that in Harvest when Max and Tess started to turn around try and walk out that Liz and the Preacher guy were practically staring at each other? Liz finally then turned around. What was that glance? Did he know that Liz was one of the royal four, but the other skins didn't? Please tell me I haven't lost my marbles.(Not that I had any)

I love the whole Parker family four generations thing. Do you think Sheila was a Parker before she married Everett Hubble?

The other problem I have is that none of the humans seem to understand that they also have the energy, that they don't have the power to use it like Max and Michael on their own but they do have the energy flowing through them. If you work with massage at all you learn very quickly that humans have lots of energy, Liz could have offered her energy even if she is totally human, I believe they did not let her do this because she is special and it would have given it away when they did not want to.
I've been frustrated with the combined energy thing for a long time. The Royal 4 know that their powers are Human so why have they not thought to do the link up thing when they need increased energy. Together they stand separate they fall.

humans all have the energy. it's in our brain. we don't use all of the things that our brain holds. i think that we only use maybe 20 percent of our brain. all else, we don't know how to tap into it. the podsters are enhanced beings in that they are just a smart as humans but maybe know how to use that other 80 percent of our brain. i guess you can say that we are crude in using our brain than we can actually tap into.

liz hasn't found that out yet. granted that she's a science wiz. but time will tell and she just might stumble upon it when the time desperately comes.

OKAY SO THE FIRST THING--did anyone else notice that COURTNEY's shirt has the TWO BACKWARD C's that Tess's ring has--which was shown in SKIN AND BONES eppy with her healing Max's face and on her cell phone?
I am pretty sure it was ROSTA who mentioned this symbolism on Tess's ring b4, well I am pretty sure that symbol is depicted on Courtney's shirt. WHAT IT MEANS? Well there is a good question.

The information we are getting about the HOME PLANET is questionable at best, I mean you have to TRUST the messenger first right?
And I am still not sure who they should trust, right now the information they have been learning has done a pretty good job of breaking up the POD SQUADS attachments, they are all keeping things from one another, and of course their human relationships have already been severed to some degree so although they are getting this information of sorts, I would take it with a grain of salt at this point.

Nemo-nice pickup on DEKALB I never would have gotten that one LOL And Rosta with the MONSANTO.

SS-nice pickup on the wedding ring or at least ring on wedding finger hmmmmmmmm!!!!!

Starstruck-yes of course I noticed diamonds on doors lol---you knew I would LOL!!!!

Panola--nice research on Max's birthdate which I have always linked to the IDES of March from Julius Caesar---ET TE BRUTUS.

All this stuff about tourist trap and CASH COW makes me think of MILTON----is he somehow associated with this FRIENDSHIP LEAGUE? They brought these words up several times in HARVEST.

Didn't T Grier's necktie look an awful lot like E HUBBLES neck tie? Well at least very similar.

Starbox, I was thinking the same thing you were about the news of CW death on the television, and TESS looked way suspicious when Max said to Liz(which broke my heart) well it didn't come from any of us so it might have come from this office. Didn't you feel like her bringing that letter up she was almost leading them there? To Arizona I mean.

Did the mannequin in the stage coach look a little like HOWIE D? LOL!!!

Panola---SNOW WHITE indeed---now where did we hear the name WHITE BEFORE? Yvonnne White?

When Tess was revisiting her memories of being thrown around the room with VANESSA WHITTAKER and Isabel I swore it looked like the shadow of the BUDDHA STATUE was there, am I more than HALF CRAZY of what? Someone else take a look, I swore I saw the outline of that BUDDHA.

Did anyoneelse notice the CD's that Courtney had were Culture Club, Wham, and Backstreet Boys, hmmmmmm CC(those two C's again) Wham (the WH like Whittaker) and Backstreet Boys(Howie D?).

Well thats all for now folks will be back

Oh and Zero thanks for the new thread and the updates on the dates, and yes I do like your theory about the PROTECTORS of the GRANOLITH---the Indians and the Parkers. The whole tie in, very interesting.

StephStephSteph--yes could someone please just lock those TWO in a room so we can have some answers????? PLEASE????? LOL!!!!!

ChezchPlease----I know you wrote something too but I will have to go back and look, I know your theories are always very thought provoking. Be back.

Are those the only two options!?

Actually, who's Pete from Pete's life off the auto guy?

who? didn't catch the reference
Panola

Panola remember at the gas station Maria is going to drop off a box for her mother and she goes to pay this guy but Michael takes off with the car in 285South---I thought I saw a HUSK for him? But I could be wrong, I am not absolutely sure, but this husk I saw seemed familiar somehow and I thought it might be this guy.

Totally spooky! Please tell us this isn't so!! They've been around the whole time? OR.. the producers or Roswell are trying to save some $$ by reusing old actors!?

Zero has started a mythology trend. Now there are Michael mythology threads, Tess, Isabel, and I think those are the only ones, but none are better than this one.

Why didn't Isabel destroy the husk when she was down there? Maybe Isabel really might be the traitor, and it's not help her any by keeping it from Max and Michael. But I do think that the skins are trying to put lies into the pod squad's heads. I still think that the skins have the story mixed around. I think Liz is Vilandra, and Vilandra great love was Max. Wouldn't it be something if Liz was half skin? But then we've never seen Liz shed.

Oh...I just realized something. Okay Courtney we know has her own little Graceland staring Michael with all the pictures. Isn't it funny how Tess has all those pictures of Max. Maybe Courtney and Tess are in something together. Kind of funny how they both have pictures of Michael and Max. Isn't that the slightest bit weird. Only Courtney did explain that she follows Michael polictically, but we've never got an explanation for Tess and her box of obsession.

Well gotta go. Bye for now.

Very good post. I think that the families in Roswell, especially the Parkers and the Evans, are very much involved in what may be a LONG lineage. They may be involved differently, but I think there will ba a deeper myth. The Grail/Holy Grail mythology fits quite nicely with Roswell, and further suggests that there is a 'Grail Family', or a great secret that is protected by a 'bloodline'. Two lineages ( lineage = vine symbolism in biblical, apocryphal, esoteric text, etc) have been displaced, 'lost', 'gone underground' to resurface. The right 'marriage' must take place.

Rosta

Thanks, Rosta!
Another family who needs to be looked at--The Valentis. Jim Sr.'s presence at the crash site...His involvement with the Hubbles...The Silo murder, I really need some more closure on this stuff. Also Kyle's missing mom has always been mildly interesting to me. There may not be anything there, but then again...

I'm also interested to see if the writers ever bring this "joining of energy" idea into the show since it is a BIG part of the books.

Zero
I Shall Believe

Ah Reggie, that was the last of my insanity for THAT NIGHT; my insanity replenishes itself daily. Which is why I spend HOURS in this thread. I have to comfort myself and make sure I'm not the only one who has completely lost my mind over Ros and Liz's importance (and that's said with the highest endearance for my fellow RBIs/Liz Mythologists)! I've got nothin' but love for y'all.

Melodious

Oh, "M", definitely! <ROTFL> I did fill out my User Profile, but I guess it doesn't specificly say "SWM" (yet).

She might have been interested in Kyle, with his Calvin Kleins , but given the choice between Kyle and Max (and Liz gets the other one), I suppose she'd choose Max. Of course, I'm no judge... I'm usually looking elsewhere.

Also, look at the nature of the Parker family business. In a town the size of Roswell, Parker's Bar was likely one of the main centers of activity. Pete would have been in a postion to be privy to all sorts of information.

Very good point Czech! And if the people 4 generations back are as "loose lipped" as our current Ros characters (discussing all their *business* right out in the open usually... in the Crashdown, in the school quad...ugh!), I wouldn't be at all surprised if Peter Parker, a bartender, had some *inside* knowledge. Very handy if indeed the Parkers are these "Granilith Guardians" we've been speculating.

quote:Is it possible that Liz's importance to the aliens is part of a family legacy? This could explain the mysteries that surround GC, as well. Looking at the posts from Panola and Zero, I wonder if maybe the Parker family is charged with protecting the Granolith. We already know from EOTW that Liz will be instrumental in uncovering it's power. And where the heck is that crystal key? It's possible since the crash, the Parkers were entrusted to keep it safe--possibly not even knowing its true purpose--until the Royal Four came of age, which would entwine Liz's destiny with theirs in yet another way.

I always liked the idea of Liz's family somehow having the connection to the alien mythos. If the *connection* is to the Granilith; we have to wonder how far back the Liz connection might go. How long has the Granilith (or *this* Granilith) been on Earth? Could it be possible that the "guardians" of the past (the Anasazi? I don't believe anyone is quite sure where they came from) moved the Granilith to it's current place? Could it have been in different positions around the Earth (hiding it)? Possibly at one time in Egypt (the pyramids alone remind me of the Granilith, upside down), among the Inca (Macchu Pichu references, if you've been there or seen the pics there are many connections to V-shapes) or other ancient civilizations?

Liz is descended from the Egyptians? The Incas? The Anasazi? Possibly all at one time or another having the responsability of protecting the Granilith? The crystal key passing down from generation to generation (but it might possibly be lost somewhere along the line. Perhaps one of the epochs of Guardians hid it in a safe place... the location is passed down instead? Maybe it's somewhere in GC's book?? Wishful thinking).

Rosta brings up the myth of the Grail and it's quest (Rosta is in the ninth heaven of speculating, I wouldn't attempt speculating at that level, my brain would probably explode ), but what if Liz is kind of like "the Lady of the Lake" of the Arthurian legend? The "keeper" of the Granilith (Excalibur). Making sure it's only *wielded* by "the worthy". It's just that in this (possible) particular reinvention of the "Lady in the Lake" theme, "the Lady" and "Arthur" *connect* in order for her to determine if he's worthy of the Granilith? Or perhaps, since Max is supposedly this "once and future king" (that line alone screams King Arthur to me)... Max's connecting with the Granilith Guardian is another sign that he is indeed the TRUE and ONLY king?

Tess could have indeed been vital (and still be so) in the alien mythos, but she's no longer the one that is Max's "destiny" once they stepped foot on Earth. Max's destiny instantly became "seek out the (Earth's?) Granilith and obtain it's power" [via forming an irreversible connection with it's "guardian", who just happened to be his SAME age and a lovely, brown haired female]?

If Liz has this ability in her, determining who is *worthy* of the Granilith... could she have OTHER abilities which possibly might only awake when the Granilith (or the "guardian" herself or the "destiny of the guardian" = Max?) is endangered? Granilith security system goes off, Granilith transmits the info (possibly via the orbs) to Liz and awakens her inherent power? Which, if she IS the Granilith guardian, could be massive?

Melodious

In 'Into the Woods' when Milton comes into the Crashdown looking for Max to tell him about the sighting, he says to Liz "you're Max's girlfriend". I always thought Jeff Parker's reaction was strange, he seemed excited by the idea, rather than acting like the concerned parent. Also, he was the one who wanted to give Max and Liz a chance to explain themselves at the end of 'Sexual Healing'. This also struck me as odd for the father of the girl to be so understanding about some boy keeping his daughter out all night! And finally, also in 'Into the Woods', that strange conversation over the card game asking Max what 'power' he had over others to make them do exactly what he wants.

One thing that I noticed when I first saw "Destiny" was that the "beepers" are the same pentagonal shape as Atherton's ceiling is in 285S. EXACTLY THE SAME! 5 triangular glass pieces!

Tess being called a "Bride" is strange as well. I think they must have just gotten married and it had to have been arranged, even though Tess says she remembers he loved her. I think that is wishful thinking. If he was a king and he was marrying her out of obligation to appease his enemies, he was probably just being nice to her and of course Tess thinks that is love. She doesn't really know what love is.

One thing I find very interesting is how in TEOTW FMax says that Liz and he became "cemented" together when they made love, never leaving eachother's sides after that :sigh: But in Harvest Tess asks Liz about Kyle in bed and says "Noted" as if that is the most important thing (Kyle being good in bed.) Plus, when Liz apologizes thinking that Tess is upset Tess says "You ONLY had sex with him." This difference in the importance of bonding with someone seems to be purposeful.

Is it possible that is why they are supposed to mate? They may become closer and have a stronger bond afterwards, being "connected." But Tess not seeing it as important is sketchy. It also shows a sleazy character. Yuck!

This may have been theorized before--I have never been on this thread before--but I think how the aliens do is very important to Liz. In "Into the Woods" Liz tells Max "You finding out what that is is more important" (okay bad job paraphrasing) and in Sexual Healing she says "I need to find out where this leads, too." I am sure their are other examples, I would just have to look back and find them.

Someone mentioned that the characters never call their parents. Liz called her mom and told her that she was staying at Maria's (and most likely called Maria's mom to say the opposite) in 285S. They just need to do it again in this season so we don't always question it. Plus, Max and Isabel's mom trusts them (in Riverdog she asks how late their were out--obviously not waiting up for them).

I think the fact that the prominent actors were in the foreroom of the barn were do to the monetary aspect of the show (less actors to pay) but it could be that the skins evident in the episode were the most important of them all.

In terms of Michael saying "Did Nasedo mention anything about a rock collection"--the Granilith is a rock. At the bottom is a diamond cut stone that glows. The V shape is a funnel that most likely channels the energy up and out.

I didn't get the vibe that Tess was thinking of CW as an ally, but most everyone else does (in alot of the threads) so I will have to play it back.

I noticed the Snow White-esque husk/body in the front of the barn. Was that Vilandra preserved? It was spooky. I will have to look at the person closer.

That's all my comments. I like this thread!

OKAY SO THE FIRST THING--did anyone else notice that COURTNEY's shirt has the TWO BACKWARD C's that Tess's ring has--which was shown in SKIN AND BONES eppy with her healing Max's face and on her cell phone?
I am pretty sure it was ROSTA who mentioned this symbolism on Tess's ring b4, well I am pretty sure that symbol is depicted on Courtney's shirt. WHAT IT MEANS? Well there is a good question.

[/B]

Brilliant catch GraceKel!!! - I actually noticed Courtney's shirt because it struck me as an odd design and one that looked like it had been done specifically for the show - but I couldnt connect it to anything. by Shapeshifter's law - it must have meaning.

In the meantime - its just one more thing to tie Tess and Courtney together. I DO think they are working on the same "team". In fact - if they are both MW - Tess definately seems to have taken an interest in helping him refine his "powers". Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. In fact - Nasedo could have even been a MW as well.

I have wondered if the fact that both Tess and Courtney wore BLUE to Copper Summit was a coincidence - or maybe some sort of "signal" to the EA.

I will try to research what the double 'c" symbol means.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

-Lizzie

The EA know more about Twilo and the podsters than the podster know about themselves. Why would they assume that Liz is an podling? The EA know that the Royal Four are two males and two females. So why did they refer to the group (MILT)as the Royal Four?

1) Perhaps the EA know or assume that the podlings have abilities (like SSing) that would allow them to manipulate their appearance. If so, the podsters do not know about these dormant abilities.

2) The EA didn't care that the 2nd in command appeared to be missing.

3) The EA thought that the 2nd was around, just not showing himself.

4) Could Liz be considered Royal for any other reason? Perhaps by association with the podsters?

LizzieParker-good catch with the lack of disintegration of the skin in Maria's hands, time will tell if it means anything or not.

I forget who posted this was it you PANOLA?
About Max scratching his eye in Harvest LOL I noticed this too, and of course I thought of RICHARD DOTY(with all that scratching in SUMMER of 47) everyone seemed convinced that Richard Doty was not portraying Max's character but I wonder about this now, of course it does seem new that MAX(of Now is scratching but I still didn't see any real discrepancy in this because he is suppose to be part human not full alien, so he wouldn't itch like full alien skins would anyway would he? I know I know people are going to say well how can he be a skin that is not what THEY said, but since I don't trust the messengers yet I don't trust the messages yet.

Now, is it because she 'knew' him from Twilo? Or was Max destined to fail on his home planet so he could fall to Earth and claim his true destiny in Liz? I'm not sure, but I just thought it would be an interesting to question/scenerio to throw out to ya'll.

So, what do you think? Am I complete nut? Or a total dunce? It's ok to tell me. I can deal!! Especially since I'm sooo new to to all of this!!!

BehrHugs,
Ashton

Ashton!

Thanks for the hugs!

I would like to know where you got this exactly. I don't recall it.

Also, about the timeline-- I think we are currently on the sixth altered timeline. Let me show you.

Timeline 1: Max and Liz never meet.
Timeline 2: First shooting, Max heals with is right hand-- but events still didn't play out correctly
Timeline 3: 2nd shooting, Max heals with left hand, right hand under Liz's head. The timeline continues as such as we know until...
Timeline 4: Somewhere in BD something was changed, perhaps the EA found them and then went back to the most appropriate time he could get to.
Timeline 5: Somewhere around 4S and Destiny, something happened. Thus the 4S date doesn't jive with the May 14th, date of Mommo-gram.
Timeline 6: TEOTW events. Liz changes the future an thus confuses the dates around the two weeks of Isabel's B-day.

What do you think?

I'm with you in the insane assylum!! My husband thinks I'm nuts - and totally obsessed!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero

Or, could it be that the beeper is a faction identifier. It seems it's pretty hard to tell who's what on Earth when you have SSers, podlings, Skins and humans all mixed up together.

There are six symbols on the beeper. Could the beeper have a little adjuster on it to look for specific aliens. Imagine the junk alien artificants salesman pitching, "When you're looking for the Royal Four, set the beeper on the whirlwind."

If this makes sense, then what other symbols are on the beeper? Is saturn on it? what would the humans symbol be, if there is one? I rather like this idea for the beeper. It takes away much of the guesswork and explains why the EA seem to be a step ahead of everyone else.

Thanks WR! And thank you for submitting. shapeshifter does all the html stuff. And Redhawk did some fantastic artwork. You can visit the site by clicking the house icon next to my user profile information. Or you can click this http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/

When I looked up the archetypal symbolism of blue - it was definately NOT positive at all - AND it fits in very well with what we know of the character of the EA. It could be that with the introduction of the EA late last season that the color symbolism will take on a new significance.

The archetypal psychology of color allies Red/Green against Blue/White in the cosmic battle between heaven and earth/good and evil. It seems that both red and green have been used in this archetypical manner so far this season.

I think - as we approach this storyline - that we may see different or expanded color symbolism in objects/clothes - although lighting effects will probably not alter.

I may of course be totally off base - I just started noticing the colors this season :-) - but as we move from the more neutral relationship struggles of last season to a mthological good vs. evil struggle - it could be that we see some of this symbols expanded in their meanings and context. :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

OTOH, suppose Tess is a skin, only she has a new husk that does not shed! (Oh, that seems very unlikely to me now because she "grew up" in the husk.)

1) Can husks continue to grow or are they stationary once a certain stage is reached? Or both? Courtney says she's been a babe for 50 years, but doesn't say she's 65 to 70 years old, as Maria implies.

2) Do husks always shed, or just in the final years?

OTOH, suppose Tess is a skin, only she has a new husk that does not shed! (Oh, that seems very unlikely to me now because she "grew up" in the husk.)

*********************************************But then again - there could be mixed-race aliens out there. In fact - I would assume that there probably are. Inter-breeding seems to be pretty much a fact of life among any species.

*********************************************

2) Do husks always shed, or just in the final years?

*********************************************

My impression was that Courtney was saying that they shed once they start "breaking down" - towards the end of the cycle. Although since the realtionship is essentially parasitic - they probably always itch.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Could there be a connection between Liz and the Granilith or a connection through her family to the Granilith?

Hi Melodious1!

Us Nebraskans have to stick together and we both love the orbs! Got to have one myself.

I rather like this idea about the orb being a satellite of the grenelyth.
First, the grenelyth could be providing power to the orb.
Second, perhaps the reason why Max could not use the orbs in TWR is because it was too far away from the grenelyth to send the signal out.
Third, there is a Q about if only the one orb was going off or if it both of them went off. I think the decision was that only the one Max and Liz found went off. The "V" constellation that triggered Max's biological awakening, which kicked the orb out of stand by mode could have happened for both orbs. But because the FBI orb was too far away, the second orb did not have enough power to "beep, produce visions, and give light." Perhaps the vault was sheilded and there was too much interferace for the grenelyth to reach it.
Fourth, the grenelyth could function as a replacement orb itself, incase something happened to one or all the orbs.

Also, as far as the grenelyth/Liz connection, I don't think we really have anything on this yet. It didn't seem to me the grenelyth would even let her touch it when she reached for Max's hand.

But I do believe, Liz will be the one that figures out how the grenelyth works. And right now, she knows what the grenelyth can be used for, Timetraveling and transporting, and that is more than the podsters know. Her importances to alien mythology is stretching from the romantic leader to the technolical by leaps and bounds.

BTW - Clues (maybe) that I have not seen discussed.

The address of the Whitaker's house was 726 (which adds to 15)!

Why were the new husks clothed?? (Okay, I know the answer to this one - they want to remain "family friendly"! )

Why did the Skins become traumatized when the new husks were destroyed? That is one incredible symbionic (sp?) connection!!

Why didn't Max get a flash when he grabbed Liz's arm in the street??

Okay, got to go to a meeting!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

It has been speculated that Iz might be Vilandra; that could be supported by her unexplainable attraction to geologist Grant who both M/M disapprove of. But in Harvest, aren't we told that she betrayed her race for Khavar, who is sitting now on Max's throne? Is it possible for a being to exist in both worlds at the same time? (Barring Max's time travel from 2014.) M/M/I died and their essence lives on in the hybrids, but apparently Khavar survived the war on Twilo and is waiting for the skins to find and deliver Vilandra back to him (if Nicholas can be believed). Does this rule out Grant as being Khavar?

Also, how does this skin thing work? Courtney likened it to a tree--I assume growing from the inside out and eventually shedding the outer layer. How would the transfer take place from the dying skin to the new one in the incubation chamber? On harvest would the current population suddenly die, or would there be some passing of spirit/memories to the new creature after which the old one dies? Just wondering.

OK, a pet peeve of mine: why couldn't they have used a real body for Michael to carry out of the barn? It bugs me on a good show when you see someone supposedly holding a baby and it is so stiff you can tell it's a doll. With all the special effects now a days, don't they have realistic dummies for situations like this?! Couldn't they have used a life-like dummy rather than a stiff store mannequin? Come on!

The writers better not pull an "Ah-ha" on us with suddenly turning around and making Tess into a respectable alien. I'm kind of encouraged to see her still behaving with only her own self interest at heart. The only way I will ever accept her is if she goes through a trial by fire, and comes out a wiser person. Then, possibly I'll let her have Kyle (right now he is too good for her) but Max is forever off limits!

Well, guess I got that off my chest!

Chica

I myself do not believe everything can be foreshadowed with color, but it's such a simple theory to follow and understand, and I think that's why it's so popular.

Sometimes a color is just a color.

Melodious

If this is true, then why didn't it save her at the crashdown...? I love your thinking though!

-Lizzie

Did Tess ever touch one? When they were at her house the night that it was broken into, I can't remember if she did or not...

Multiple posts is what happens when you are behind on your reading. My apologies folks:

Nemo
I will have to watch Harvest again to see the 2 diamonds and the 4S symbols on the UFL building. I can't believe I missed it. But thank you for letting everyone know about it.

Liz & Tess discussing Kyle's abilities
Okay, I really gave Tess the benefit of the doubt here. I thought her statement, "It's only sex." was really off. So I decided that Tess knew Liz was lying about the whole thing, but is trusting Liz b/c she is benefiting from the scenerio. I think that even for Tess, that was out of line. In TLV, she told Liz that she moved around too much to get close to any guy. Tess is a virgin, as are all the kids. And when Tess said noted, I think Tess was trying to tell Liz she is interested in Kyle.

Showdown at the Service
When T. Greir said, "The king and his bride." Was that before or after Max says, "Let her go. She's not one of us!" If before, T. Greir could have been talking to all of them, knowing one of them was the bride. Afterall, the other one was Valandra. (Which means Nikolaus wasn't the only person to spot Valandra out right away-unless there was some behind the scenes talking.) But when he said it, he looked at Liz. If it was after Max said "Let her go." Then why did her look at Liz when he said bride? I'll have to watch it again. It was weird.

I thought Tess's help was more for show than anything else. It didn't seem to hurt Max though. But why didn't Tess open the door for Max instead? That seemed like a stupid move. Tess did open the door after the Courtney vandalized the husk barn, using a handgun power. Why did she wait? If nothing else, Liz could have gotten away.

Now, why didn't Liz help Max by offering her energy? In Balance she was told not to join the circle. Perhaps Liz didn't think she could help because of what RD had told her. And when she has joined Max in a connection in the past, it totally distracts him from what he should be doing. Then again, she could have been trying to open the door to get out. But she stayed, proving that she did lie to Max about not wanting to die for him. She is more than willing to stand next to him in life and death situations. Liz loves Max. I wonder how long it will take Max to bring this back to Liz.

The rock collection comment Michael made to Tess reminded me of Destiny.

Tess knew about the healing stones from Nasedo. As soon as she started talking about them, the kids said they already had them. Tess seemed very surprised that they knew about them and had them already!

In EOTW, Tess was complaining to Kyle about the other three and basically saying in not so many words, how dumb they were. Hey, these kids found those stones (actually, Michael and Liz were key to it) without Tess's and Nasedo's help. I wound not be a bit surprised if Tess does in fact know more "secrets" and is not disclosing them. Perhaps, because she left the group without giving up this information, that caused the end. Maybe it has nothing to do with powers and balancing at all. Maybe Tess was taught these things to blackmail Max into destiny.

Yeah... "stick together", because we're all FROZEN together, like a clump of ice cubes. It's COLD here in Lincoln, NE!

Like always, your feedback is excellent and thought-provoking.

quote:I rather like this idea about the orb being a satellite of the grenelyth.

Second, perhaps the reason why Max could not use the orbs in TWR is because it was too far away from the grenelyth to send the signal out.

Also, as far as the grenelyth/Liz connection, I don't think we really have anything on this yet. It didn't seem to me the grenelyth would even let her touch it when she reached for Max's hand.

Point taken, it's never been insinuated at all that Liz has a direct connection with the Granilith (hence / or to the orbs), but I can't help but speculate it. The only times the orbs and the Granilith (so far) have ever *been activated* is when Liz has been present. Granted, this could merely be coincidence, but still...

It did seem the Granilith might have reacted *negatively* if Liz touched it (hence she almost seemed hesitant or afraid to touch it). Although I always go back to my thoughts on Liz's *possible* contributions to Michael's and Nasedo's *Destiny* healing (and her lack thereof in Ask Not)... Liz possibly contributing to these *alien rituals* with her mere presence. During all these *rituals*, she was seemingly *separate from the group* and wasn't holding a healing stone, yet I feel she contributed *in some way* regardless. That there's something about Liz that alien *forces/power* recognizes and *rituals* aren't complete unless she's there. Which just might include Future Max's activation of the Granilith in EOTW. I don't know, I suppose I'm stretching.

quote:But I do believe, Liz will be the one that figures out how the grenelyth works. And right now, she knows what the grenelyth can be used for, Timetraveling and transporting, and that is more than the podsters know.

And I wonder when and if this information will get to Max? I assume she's going to have to spill the beans at a time when she discovers the Skins *really want* or are *about to get* the Granilith. She'll perhaps realize that Max is going to have to know what she knows about it. How truly powerful it is and in the wrong hands it could probably do some serious damage (in theory). I wonder if she'd tell him *everything*? I'd assume so, but I don't know. After EOTW, you literally heard the thud across the country as hundreds of Dreamer hearts simultaneously hit the floor. ::sigh:: I don't know how much more of this M/L situation I can take. (sorry, the dreaminess is hard to keep at bay)

Melodious

Melodious

Melodious!

You are right. It's freezing here today! My feet feel like ice cubes! And your post had me in stitches-- LMAO!

You and I are orbsessed Lincolnites.

Originally posted by RoswellMoe:
If this is true, then why didn't it save her at the crashdown...? I love your thinking though!

Perhaps because she hadn't made the connection to Max yet? Whatever is in Liz needed the acknowledgement or presence of the of the "once and future King"; when he healed her, her "Guardian" status was activated? Maybe because the Granilith needs (or was programmed) to be protected from *all* possible *negative influence*... whether it be Skin or Podian? Liz's "guardian side" activated when Max healed her possibly due to his *checkered* past (if Max's *past* was indeed as bad / negative / inept as Courtney made it seem)? ... ok, admittedly, pretty weak.

QFanny: It's sad when one has to *debate* every morning on either flunking class (staying in and watching Roswell with a cup of hot chocolate) or getting up and drudging through a cold UNL campus all day. I haven't chosen skipping class (w/ Ros) yet, but I'm darn near close! btw, we ARE very obsessed Lincolnites.

Melodious

If this is true, in SH, no one was at risk: the granolith, Liz, or Max. That seemed to be one of their most peaceful moments. Valenti wasn't hot on their tracks at the time, Pierce and Co hadn't entered the picture, and Nacedo and Tess were as yet unknown. Yet the orbs seemed to be calling to Liz demanding to be found. I still think that was the coolest plot to allow Max & Liz to make out the entire episode! It seems that the orbs could only be sensed by Liz if she "turned off" her smart little mind and just let herself feel totally open to her emotions. A totally shipper/dreamer episode! Ah, young love...!

Chica

Chica, its hard for a dreamer not to absolutely love SEXUAL HEALING eppy LOL I sure hope we WILL be getting PART2 real soon.

Agent Stephens--everyone assumes that Agent Stephens turned LIZ's uniform over to the FBI lab---but I do not, in fact, I think he covered up and came back and told the sheriff, no spaceship landed in Roswell blah blah blah....as far as we know NOW Agent Stephens is dead, maybe he is---and both he and Max both live at 6025 Murray Lane--some think this is just a bloop but I thought it could be a hint that he lived where Max lived?

Mr Selegman says in SH eppy, "you are an excellent student Ms Parker, I wouldn't let anything come between YOU and the BEAUTY OF THE UNIVERSE---Tess shows up next eppy, was he warning her, you are smart I wouldn't let anyone come between you and Max?

Special Unit Head Daniel Summers, well he is dead now, but when he was head of the unit I don't recall him hunting down the aliens?

Doug Shellow(dog boy) another from the dog clan like Max(who is so often referred to Deputy Dog, you undeserving dog, a groveling dog) he is Liz Parkers blind date--but this blind date ULTIMATELY brings Max and Liz back together? Also something Nemo pointed out was that DOUG SHELLOW's mentioning of the archeology dept is not unlike Grandma Claudia publishing in that ARCHEOLOGICAL JOURNAL. He also mentions when they get away from the media van and come into the crashdown, I guess we are SAFE here, no one would be looking for us here, how much more NORMAL can you get? (Now if Liz is true bride being hidden in human form---this line would fit perfectly).

Agent Samuels--he was the one who looked funny at the BAT SIGNAL---and I know everyone else believes his look was screaming EVIL ALIEN but when Michael shows up in the EAGLE ROCK MILITARY BASE to save Max, it is Samuels who says, "BEALS you picked a hell of a time to show up!" (Yes just in time to save MAX?)

Max's therapist's name is Mr Shaunessey well how helpful he was I guess we can't really say since Max could not really shared but at least he offered some guidance and was willing to listen and understand.

We know that someone named SERENE will help them make the granolith into a TELEPORTER thru time? Another HELPER----I guess you can argue but this is a FIRST NAME but I am going by how we know the character not necessarily by first or last name, so therefore I could also tie in here SHEILA--connection yet to be determined.

THe one that could definitely throw this off is SORENSON--Grant Sorenson because well I am not sure but it looks like he might not be a good guy---and I was thinking of all these S people as being helpful.

I cannot think of any others at the moment and if I do I will post them.

"Noted"

Lee - Welcome!

Though Liz appeared at first to "Chicken out" of the Mikey G's healing, she did appear in the vision (remember Max's shock at seeing her?), and was "present" at the time - thus, she did assist in the healing, though not as the rest did. She - as River Dog said - found her own way. I tend to think just her presence is necessary, and that no one is even aware of that. That she has a power or energy that not even she is aware of - yet!

Also, I disagree that the Skins are more powerful then the podsters or their people. We do not know - nor do the podsters themselves - the extent of their power, and apparently their power is enhanced by working together. I believe in the end that they were sent to the Earth for a reason, to find the complement to their powers that would help them ultimately defeat their enemies. I think the KEY to this enhanced ability is Liz - that she is the 5th element - that complements their power.

We do not know how the Royal 4 were killed yet - though we have had a few off-hand comments, we do not know how or why - yet. So - nothing is obvious, at least to me. Though the way Nasedo was murdered by Whitaker may have made his healing impossible, I still think that the healing stones failed to work because Liz - and what she represents to the podsters - was not present at the time.

Of course - none of us know what will really occur - only the writers know that - but that is my theory based on the clues I've observed.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

I wondered why so many posters thought that Liz didn't help in Michael's healing? I always thought that Liz joined the healing to protect Max. A couple things that I noticed is Max didn't chant or make contact with Michael. Alex shook Michael's hand, Maria kissed him, and Iz hugged him, but when Max walked over to Michael he caught sight of Liz, he stopped, and never completed the action. Now this line from Riverdog always bothered me.

RIVER DOG: You're afraid...not of the healing. Your fear runs deeper. You fear for someone else, someone you care for a great deal. Take a step back. You cannot stop the flow.

When I first herd this I thought that Liz was only afraid of Max getting sick, but like Riverdog said "your fear runs deeper." I wonder what would have happened to Max if Liz didn't walk in at the moment? I know Max reaches out his hand to Michael and then they walk off hand-and-hand, but they didn't touch in the "circle" because of Liz. Something else Riverdog said was "Don't change the way you feel about your friend, and you'll come out on the right side."
So did Liz know that Max would not come out on the right side, if she didn't help him by taking her own path? How bad was the relationship between Max and Michael on there planet? How did Liz know that Max was in danger? Could it be that Liz was already taking on her role as protecter.

I just wanted...to remember ~Liz~
Evid

Someone posted on spoiler board last week that Iz's birthday is actually supposed to be Oct. 14 (yes, another 14!), but for some reason it got changed to Oct. 25 in Surprise. They didn't say if this was a screw up or deliberate, or whatever. I didn't think much of this until the Harvest date snafus and reading the following post by AnonWatcher today:

"This piece of info was posted on the Roswell scifi thread...Sexual Healing was on February 21st. and Venus takes 245 days to circle around the Sun, SH's anniversary would have been the day of Gomez' concert: October 25th!"

I haven't checked the science or the math on that one, but it struck me as extremely interesting, so I'm passing it on. It seems to follow the assumption that EOTW ended on 10/25 and Harvest started on 10/26, which I agree with, since it makes a 10/14 b-day for Iz entirely possible.

Anyone have thoughts on this?

GRACEKEL-I don't know it you have this already, but here's another "S" for you--Sommers, the history teacher in 285 South. The one who says "Everybody has their secrets. There isn't a person alive today who's what they appear to be... Even the most normal of us has extraordinary qualities just waiting to be uncovered."

In light of the discussion here, Liz VO takes on added significance: "Listening to Mr. Sommers, I realized how strange it must be for Max, Isabel, and Michael not to even know their own history. And how scary it would be if anyone discovered it before they did."

Maybe she is foreshadowing her own situation.

The ring Liz wore: Could it be that FM gave Liz what would have been his wedding ring? After all at the end of EOTW, he no longer existed.

The bride: Could it be that Tess was the INTENDED bride, but Max followed his heart and married Liz instead?

Question: Why is it that all the other aliens seem to remember what happened on their planet except for M/Mi/I?? Tess says she remembers some but I'm not too sure.

I rewatched TLV the other day and it seems we have came full circle. Liz was hurt because Max kissed Tess, now Max is hurt by Liz. Liz followed her heart and I feel Max will too. I think he knows she is hiding something when she told him "You are scarring me."

Any thoughts?

1) As for the failed healing of Harding. Are we 100% sure that that WAS Harding/Nasedo?
We all know he can shapeshift. Maybe all the manequins (dummies) in Harvest were a hint?
Or - IF CW and Tess are working together - then it could have been that Tess purposefully kept the healing from working. She never really seemed to like Nasedo to begin with - and her betraying him isnt much of a stretch.

2)As to why the "husks" were clothed. This is something that has bothered me. The EA in Copper Summit did NOT seem very "coherent".
They seemed a little like robots - with the exception of Nikolas. Remember CW's mothers intital reaction to seeing M/I/L/T?
What if there are EA that are "hybrids" - like the podsters. They are the leaders. The "skins" are like the "battle droids" in Star Wars (okay - I am not a TOTAL geek for making that analogy - I have a 4 year old son that lives and breathes Star Wars :-) - pretty much mindless robots. The skins in the UFL reminded me alot of the zombie soldiers in Summer or 47 and Hal's comments that "They were everywhere - with empty dead eyes". It also makes sense that the podsters would be told to look for "the evil within" and not for shedding skin :-) Of course - this alos complicates things - as the EA leaders may or may not be itching and shedding.

QFanny - I meant no disrespect on the color theory :-) - I have no business commenting on theories from last season since I did not keep up with the boards at that time. I just wanted to throw out the idea that as the show's emphasis shifts in a more "cosmic" direction that the color symbolism may evolve to take on a more archetypical direction. :-)
I am probably way too into archetypes and their symbolism - its the English teacher in me coming out :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Just wanted to post a picture of the "real" royal four.

Your the one Liz the only one. ~Max~

Evid

Originaly posted by MeRlin in another board...
"In "Four Square" we learn that Michael sorta figured out a symbol by using the stars and it lead to the library (where him and Isabel tried to contact Nasedo)In the same epi Max and Liz find out that the symbol is Aries, the first sign of the zodiac, but that one star is missing. After creating the constellation for that specific day, they see that the last star is actually Venus and I quote
LIZ: "Oh, wow, it's Venus. When it's in the right place in the sky, it completes the V shape."
I think it was in "Heat Wave" that Max says that Venus is standing in front of him (Venus being Liz).

Do you guys remember in "Blind Date" when Max kisses Liz(who can forget) and the flashes start and in the end we see the map Michael was trying to translate and the
V constellation as well? Why would they show that if they were not wanting to imply what Merlin just pointed out above. I believe Liz IS Venus and I just need to know what would that mean for the podsters.

Can anybody help????THANK YOU

CzechPlease I knew I forgot somebody yes the history teacher too, nice catch.

Evid---yes that whole Liz hesitates always bothered me which also made me think that maybe at the time that Michael was different from Max and Isabel and there was a DEEPER REASON why LIZ did hesitate that they have not expanded on yet. BUT YOUR FEAR RUNS DEEPER I think was a definite clue there is a DEEPER MEANING HERE so I agree with you.
Oh and I love that PICTURE---that should be the PROMO PIC WB---YOU HEAR ME!!!!!!! LOL!!!!!

Panola-about Max itching somebody did give me an innocent explanation for the eye rubbing he said he hadn't slept since he saw Liz with Kyle(poor guy-my heart is breaking for him and Liz) and he could have been trying to ACT TIRED--I guess this does make sense.

One more thing and I must run---I checked out PETE's LIFT OFF AUTO PARTS from 285 SOUTH and I will CONFIRM that this IS in fact the actor whose HUSK in right BESIDE COURTNEY's at the end of HARVEST, SO what does this means my fellow RBI's? And why is Maria's MOM do business with him?

Skins remember because they never died. It is still themselves, only far away from their home and "poured", "encased", whatever, into their husks. The podsters died and their essences cloned and mixed with another species' DNA in order to make them what they are now. It'll take some doing to have them recall their past lives! (Although that eye flashing into Max's memory, together with all the other violent acts he had encountered on Earth is a good start!).

StarBox: We assume the husks need vapor, nourishment and air to survive. Clothing them would have only stifled the process, unless they were ready to be snapped out and used. It seems this was the case because, when destroyed, it bothered/hurt the Skins, which would mean that the transfer had already started (remember they were all in Copper Summit for the Harvest). However, if that was the case, then the husks should have been able to survive on their own already!

GraceKel: Or could it be that the guy at Pete's Lift Off lives by Paramount Studios, comes cheap and the Casting Director has his number? LOL!

Zero and Company: I usually just lurk in this thread. Just wanted to say thank you for all the hours of entertainment and headaches you have given me for the past year!

GraceKel, thanks for that. I'm not convinced that Stephens was friendly, but I am certainly open to the idea. I guess time will tell with Sorenson.

WR

Depending on what portion of the Earth's atmosphere was the problem, they might be able to change husks underwater. I think that the oxygen in our air is the problem, and there isn't that much dissolved in water, esp. warm water. (It's not that hard to deplete oxygen from water, anyway. Rotting material uses up oxygen, so dumping compost in a swimming pool (no chlorine!) would work well.)

If our little monsters prefer a reducing atmosphere, one could fill that phone booth with natural gas. One hears of agricultural accidents where someone is suffocated in a silo or tank because there is CO2 and/or methane in it which has displaced the oxygen; one could set up such a situation on purpose for a changing room.

Accomidating their natural state, briefly, shouldn't be a problem. By the way, did anyone else flash on The Wild, Wild West when they saw the equipment in the husk farm?

GraceKel: Or could it be that the guy at Pete's Lift Off lives by Paramount Studios, comes cheap and the Casting Director has his number? LOL!

[/B]

On this subject - there is a post on the boards by yamenko - who was an extra on Roswell this week. He didnt post any details because he was hoping that he might get called back to be an extra again - so I am assumming that they re-use minor actors.

Although - the fact that they bothered to make a husk of him does seem a more than a little bit suspicious......

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

"This piece of info was posted on the Roswell scifi thread...Sexual Healing was on February 21st. and Venus takes 245 days to circle around the Sun, SH's anniversary would have been the day of Gomez' concert: October 25th!"

I haven't checked the science or the math on that one, [/B]

Venus orbits the Sun in 225 days. BUT, I think the key figure here should be how long it takes for Venus and the Earth to align with the sun. Something else I found out about Venus is that at the point that Venus is closest to the Earth, the distance id 42 Kilometers.

WR

How could they be approaching a Golden Age if Max was such a poor Leader? How could someone approach a Golden Age under someone who constantly makes mistakes that might lead to a war?

As to bad decisions, bad from whose point of view?
I'm sure the UN's decision to 'force' Sadam Hussein out of Kuwait was viewed as a BAD decision by the Iraqies, but was seen as a good decision elsewhere.

WR

Oh, it was Santayana!

Incorrect, Mom be King's Mom. Queen be wife of King. IF Tess be bride, Tess be Queen ( but only AFTER the "I now pronounce you man and wife." )

WR

The ring Liz wore: Could it be that FM gave Liz what would have been his wedding ring? After all at the end of EOTW, he no longer existed.
Yes, and for the same reason his ring didn't exist. Remember, in the curent timeline Max has NOT come back; that's why he "disappeared".

Question: Why is it that all the other aliens seem to remember what happened on their planet except for M/Mi/I?? Tess says she remembers some but I'm not too sure.
Because the podsters were KILLED, and some part of their souls were recorded, resurrected, or something; and used as seeds to grow the personalities we recognise as belonging to Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess. There was a chance for their memories to go away. The other aliens traveled here, and have not died, so there is no reason they wouldn't remember things from earlier.

I rewatched TLV the other day and it seems we have came full circle. Liz was hurt because Max kissed Tess, now Max is hurt by Liz. Liz followed her heart and I feel Max will too. I think he knows she is hiding something when she told him "You are scarring me."
Yes, and I think Maria will worm it out of her. She'll have a breakdown, or start crying for no reason that Maria knows, or something. Maria will get Liz drunk (remember Kyle & Max in BD?), and Liz will spill all.

quote:Originally posted by WR:
Incorrect, Mom be King's Mom. Queen be wife of King. IF Tess be bride, Tess be Queen ( but only AFTER the "I now pronounce you man and wife." )

Well, maybe. Suppose proto-Max's parents were the King and Queen. The King dies, and Max inherits the title of King. That doesn't necessarily make Mom lose the title of Queen, esp. if it's her side that was royal?
Anyway, if now-King Max marries, the wife might be titled Princess Consort while the King's mother lives. Remember, the husband of Queen Elizabeth is titled Prince Consort, yet her father was King, and her son may be.

When the King dies, if he has a son, the son ascends the throne, and becomes King. The Old King's wife is no longer the Queen, she becomes the King's Mother. When/If the new King marries, his wife becomes Queen.

If the King dies with no son, but with a daughter (George V - Princess Elizabeth), then when she ascends the throne, she becomes Queen. Her mother becomes the Queen Mother. When/If she marries, her husband becomes a Prince Consort. He CANNOT become King, because he is not the heir. If the Queen dies, power passes to the next in Line (Son, Daughter, Brother, Brothers offspring, Sister, etc.)
In our case, if Elizabeth dies, we get (a) Charlie, not a Philip.

WR

WR

Ahem, Ok you two, love the *cave speech* Throwing this out, could the Coronation ceremony possibly have been separate from the Wedding ceremony? (King) Max might have married (Bride) Tess (or about to marry her), so Tess might have been a "Bride" but not as yet "Queen"? I like the ideas thrown out that everyone might have died on Max/Tess' wedding day. Arguably, a time I'd think all the kingdom would have been in one place or at least the *important* people (all vulnerable, probably not expecting a possible surprise attack by "revolutionaries").

Unless they believe in poligamy on Twilo and the Queen was someone else Max was married to prior Tess, kind of like in "Anna and the King of Siam". The "Queen" being Max's first wife? Tess the second (hence, she's only "a bride" or "princess"... but then why don't they call her "Princess"? Unless my above theory about the Coronation being separate stands)? If this were true, however, why didn't they send "the Queen" with Max as opposed to the secondary bride? Although the thought of shy & withdrawn Max having a harem I find rather amusing.

Melodious

If Max is being called the King - then it would imply that once he and Tess married that she would indeed be the QUEEN - not the bride.
You are only called a bride on your wedding day. If she was killed on the wedding day - it makes a sense for the mom-o-gram to have called her "bride" (although I still want to know why sending a bride was a good idea!) Before that you are the betrothed.
The EA should have adressed Tess as the queen or the betrothed - depending on whether or not he thought that she and Max had consummated their relationship. I mean - 50+ years as a "bride"??? Any way you look at it - it makes no sense to refer to her as the "bride".
Of course - it could just be a case of sloppy writing.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I've been lurking about for over half a year using my computer at work whenever I could. Since I just set up my very own system at home, I'm getting my feet wet and saying hello to everyone!

Zero, Melodious1, GraceKel, others... I feel like you are all old friends already! I absolutely love the thoughtful, intelligent, funny, and insightful views you all have. Zero, you do an amazing job on the synopsis for the new threads!

I agree that Liz is an important part of the alien mythology – no question about it in my mind. Her contributions to the pod squad’s lives have been too numerous, too important to mean anything different. I just can’t quite figure out what part she will play in their future with the complications of Tess, the mommogram, Nacedo, etc.

Anyway, as Liz would say, here's what I'm thinking...

This is going to be far out in left field and may make some of you gag, but here goes… Although Tess (or is it T***?) is certainly not one of my favorite characters, I only realized during TH how immature she is. I don’t know if this was the writer’s intent or not, but during the discussion with Liz in the jeep re: Kyle, it seemed to me that she seemed much more a preteen than a mature young adult (like Liz). I can’t help but think how interesting it would be to see Liz in a mentor role for her – you know, teacher, guide, etc. – if they could ever get past the stumbling block of Max. (Of course, with Liz and Max back together.)

In TEOTW, Tess plainly states that she is aware no one really cares for her – not even the PS. Although showing support for Tess in Destiny and Skin&Bones, to me it seems that Isabel doesn’t really come across as being simpatico to Tess, even while saving her life in Surprise. She snapped at Tess during TH and she doesn’t really appear to take an interest in doing social things with Tess (maybe there just isn’t enough air time to show it). Max has his own reasons for keeping his distance and Michael – God love him – is doing his best just to keep himself out of trouble. On the human side of the equation, Maria strongly defends those she loves (Liz) and would definitely be hard pressed to change her attitude about “the tramp.” A relationship between Tess and Alex might be possible – he’s so sweet and innocent in some ways and Tess most definitely isn’t. Hmmmm…might make for an interesting story there. Lastly, although Kyle and the Sheriff have both come across for Tess, I can’t help feel that Kyle is mostly interested in a physical relationship and the Sheriff is distracted by other things.

This leads me to wonder: if Liz is the only one who realizes how important Tess might be, will she step forward and not only try to facilitate a good relationship between Tess and Max, but also encourage Isabel and Michael to embrace Tess as well? Could this mean that Liz might step up to the plate as a Tess supporter and thereby create an entirely new relationship between the two of them? I believe Liz is strong enough to do this—she is intelligent, mature, totally committed to Max and his success, and she has a wonderful sense of honor. I just wouldn’t want Liz’s role as Tess’s mentor to stop Liz and Max from getting back together!!!!

Anyway, I’ve rambled way too much and you all are probably going to kick me off the board for this long post. Thanks again everyone!

Ree99

DeeDee

I've been lurking about for over half a year using my computer at work whenever I could. Since I just set up my very own system at home, I'm getting my feet wet and saying hello to everyone!
Well, hello back! Don't be nervous. If you've been lurking that long, you already know we don't bite.

This is going to be far out in left field and may make some of you gag, but here goes… Although Tess (or is it T***?) is certainly not one of my favorite characters, I only realized during TH how immature she is. I don’t know if this was the writer’s intent or not, but during the discussion with Liz in the jeep re: Kyle, it seemed to me that she seemed much more a preteen than a mature young adult (like Liz). I can’t help but think how interesting it would be to see Liz in a mentor role for her – you know, teacher, guide, etc. – if they could ever get past the stumbling block of Max. (Of course, with Liz and Max back together.)
You know, that's not a bad idea. She's already been coaching Tess toward Max, so there is already a start toward such a relationship. With a little more maturity, Tess might even decide she doesn't want Max, never mind her upbringing. In that case, she could be willing to stay in Roswell as a podster but with another guy as her romantic interest (as opposed to a mate assigned to her).

Anyway, I’ve rambled way too much and you all are probably going to kick me off the board for this long post. Thanks again everyone!
Ree99 [/QUOTE]
Ha! A long post takes more than one page. Yours is just about right; you said what needed said, not too wordy, then stopped. Well done.

A couple of things that I've been thinking about when I'm reading over your (very creative) ponderings...

Liz Being An Alien - If Liz is in fact an alien, or part alien, she cannot be one of the podsters. In S1, I forget which eppy, they clearly showed the 4th podster as being a blond haired girl. I cannot believe that Liz would be one of the podsters.

I really think there is something to the whole GC theory. I mean, in "Leaving Normal" did anyone else notice how unsurprised GC was that the boy at the side of the bed - making it possible for Liz to see her in a most unhuman way - "Must Be Max?" She clearly was not surprised and all of the dialogue in that eppy between GC and Liz, if you listen to it again thinking GC might be part of the mythology, could be construed differently. Don't you think? Perhaps the 'soul mate' conversation GC had with Liz was GC speaking from her own experience? Hmmmmm.....makes you wonder.

One other thing I've been thinking is...if GC is involved in the mythology somehow...it is quite possible that another alien's essence was somehow transfered into Liz's mom when she was pregnant with Liz. Think about it...that would make her physically human...but with the soul/essence of an alien.

My own personal thought...Max and Liz were somehow together on Twilo. (great NY club..makes me laugh that you named it that as I've had some unearthly experiences there myself!) Max was forced to marry Tess...perhaps to bring peace between the warring factions, and one of the things that Max has to learn on this planet in order to be a better leader is to "follow his heart and choose his own destiny". Think about it...if Max made 'bad decisions' which led to the destruction of his race or whatever...maybe his bad decision was not following his heart and marrying Tess instead. Liz could be the catalyst for Max to learn this lesson. Maybe that's what the connection is between these two.

We choose our own destinies...and maybe that's what Max has to learn in order to be a better King. Remember how all great leaders have to follow their hearts...like JFK!

That's it for now. Thanks for listening! Sorry if I've repeated any previous discussions! Keep on thinking those good thoughts...

Also, you know it will almost be a bummer to learn what the true relationship between everyone really was back on the home planet. In a way, its so much more fun to ponder all the possibilities so endlessly. Here's a theory--and one that may well have been overworked already--but that Liz was the "bride" back home. Max loved Liz even though she was a skin...thought that marrying her would unite the different factions (especially since he loved her even though she was "the enemy".) But it all backfired, and they were all murdered (on the wedding day, if the "bride" theory holds.) I'm not sure how it was she wasn't one of the original podsters, but perhaps Nasedo (who hadn't supported this union) switched Tess with her?

Okay, so now this lurker has added her own theory! Don't shoot me, guys if it's been said already, though not sure i"ve seen it!

This is so much to take in but you guys as always have done a beautiful job. One thing that I have to wonder is if the writers are as advanced as you brainiacs?

I am dying, I mean dying to go over to that spoiler board. I just can't stand L/M being apart, please tell me that it will get better soon.

I have to agree with the consensus that after Harvest Tess is not OK. Something is up. I have thought from the beginning that she is planting alot of the images into the podsters minds, and now I am even wondering if she planted FMax? These things always end up getting her exactly what she wants.

Example:
mom-o-gram: Liz walks away from Max.
Surprise: Isabel and the others feel sorry for her.
EOTW: Liz betrays Max.
Harvest: She tries to "bond" her powers with Max.

I was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt, but not any more. I have some horrible news - this thread was on page 2!!!

So this is an incredibly long bump

Metaphysicalgrl--Actuall Tess could have put it all in Max's mind. I think Tess knows the truth, but doesn't want to tell because now she has taken the real Queen's place (Liz) and her man, so I think Tess doesn't want to ruin it.

Tess comes across to me as someone who badly wants a family or to have someone special,and I think she would do anything to get it. So I think she knows that Liz is the real Queen, so she cuts a deal with Harding since they both know that the pod squad doesn't remember; they use this to their advantage. Harding probably just went along because he knows that Liz is detracting Max from his kingly duties.

But the end Max and Liz will find their way back to each other, and all will be well in Roswell.

Well, maybe. Suppose proto-Max's parents were the King and Queen. The King dies, and Max inherits the title of King. That doesn't necessarily make Mom lose the title of Queen, esp. if it's her side that was royal?
Anyway, if now-King Max marries, the wife might be titled Princess Consort while the King's mother lives. Remember, the husband of Queen Elizabeth is titled Prince Consort, yet her father was King, and her son may be. [/B]

Queen E the second's dad was king. Her mother was queen (after marrying him) however when he died she became the queen mother (no official title really). King's are higher than Queen's so the Queen's (who is the queen if there is no male to be it) husband is a prince. Now I can't remember what i was explaining. Oh well i'll come back later

quote:Originally posted by Metaphysicalgrl:

I really think there is something to the whole GC theory.... Perhaps the 'soul mate' conversation GC had with Liz was GC speaking from her own experience? ...One other thing I've been thinking is...if GC is involved in the mythology somehow...it is quite possible that another alien's essence was somehow transfered into Liz's mom when she was pregnant with Liz. Think about it...that would make her physically human...but with the soul/essence of an alien....

I love it. I think both of you are right. Last season there was a lot of symbolism that seemed to be pointing that way. I posted some of it (mostly on the Science Fiction threads) and some of that is preserved at the Maxcedo site: http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell

Max was forced to marry Tess...perhaps to bring peace between the warring factions, and one of the things that Max has to learn on this planet in order to be a better leader is to "follow his heart and choose his own destiny". Think about it...if Max made 'bad decisions' which led to the destruction of his race or whatever...maybe his bad decision was not following his heart and marrying Tess instead. ...
Nemo, did you see this one too? I think it's perfect. ***Sigh*** remember when we were all in our training pants and everything seemed so clear? Now we've all GraceKelled ourselves silly.

I didn't read the entire thread (it's 10 pages!), so I don't know all that has already been said about Liz's visions and flashes. I've been pondering this for awhile, especially since Kyle told Liz in TEOTW that he didn't get any flashes when Max healed him. Liz's flashes could mean a lot of different things. It could be that Max has made a connection with her that maybe he was supposed to make with Tess. Or maybe this connection shows that he and Liz really are meant for each other.

Max made the connection with Liz when he healed her and when he wanted to explain things to her in the Pilot. He has been involved in (touching her) every vision she's had except for when she kissed Nasedo/Evil Max. Her visions were instrumental in finding the orbs (in SH) as well as furthering the alien connection with the humans (pilot). She might, as others have said, have been affected by aliens before she was born to have this power. It could be an attempt on the good aliens' part to integrate the different races. On the other hand (the boring side of the question), it could just be when anyone has a very strong feeling towards an alien (though MM's relationship would probably have been affected if this was true).

I think you may be right about GC speaking from experience when she had the "soul mate" conversation with Liz. It struck me that way, too. (The question is: who was/is GC's soul mate?) And, GC readily accepted the fact that Max was "different" and that their situation was "difficult." It seemed as if GC understood all along what Liz was getting at - that she was in love with someone not of this earth.

On another note, there was some discussion a while back about the date when Brody Davis' alien whatchamacallit went off - May 14. I can't recall this exactly, but in 4Sq when Max and Liz plotted the Aries constellation into the computer for that day’s date, it was something like May 25, creating what I had originally assumed was just a blunder at the WB. But, now I'm wondering if the May 14 date could have been the night when the orb was activated by Liz and Max during SH - again pointing to Liz as the connection. It would make sense, I think, if that's the case. (Please accept my apologies if this possibility has already been discussed!)

Lastly, regarding the issue of Max's possible failed rule on Twilo... It seems I remember some story where a successful, beloved king - one who had brought peace to warring factions in his country and was on the brink of leading his people into a new age of enlightment - intentionally disregarded his role as king and silently watched those who loved and served him suffer while he ignored the decline of his rule. His reasoning was that he would create the illusion that the kingdom was on the brink of collapse, thereby drawing out his enemies who plotted against him. I don't know - this seems like a pretty drastic measure, but I guess if things were bad enough back on the home world (maybe if the ruler Max was saw something horrible in the future of his planet, something that was unavoidable) he might be willing to make those sacrifices and bring the battle to Earth? Sorry if this sounds simplistic (I'm NOT a great thinker); it just seems like some of the information popping up these days on Roswell could point to this type of a situation.

Ree99

if Liz is the only one who realizes how important Tess might be, will she step forward and not only try to facilitate a good relationship between Tess and Max, but also encourage Isabel and Michael to embrace Tess as well? Could this mean that Liz might step up to the plate as a Tess supporter and thereby create an entirely new relationship between the two of them? I believe Liz is strong enough to do this—she is intelligent, mature, totally committed to Max and his success, and she has a wonderful sense of honor. I just wouldn’t want Liz’s role as Tess’s mentor to stop Liz and Max from getting back together!!!!

This makes so much sense. I could see Liz doing that in her noble way. However, I think that Tess has a pride issue with Liz helping her. Tess had trouble accepting Liz's help in TEOTW; if Tess finds out about the whole faking sleeping with Kyle thing, her pride would probably take a major blow.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I think that was a ploy by Whitaker to get Liz to talk, but I don't think she actually shredded all the files. Plus, there were the CD that we know where there before the BD Party (after which Whitaker was killed) - so had to still be in existence.

Now to finish reading and get the next Thread up!

Oh, and Bluecornmoon - glad you are joining us! It is our duty to drive all Dreamers crazy - in a good way!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!!