This intro is the same as that from the last thread since – it is late at night, and I want to get the new thread up, and Harvest didn’t add too much new to Liz’s Importance – though it sure didn’t subtract from our beliefs. Unfortunately, I’m not doing justice to the wonderful discussions that occurred on the last thread – but I’m tired.

The following is a summary of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the original threads. Our basic thesis is that Liz is an important and essential element to the alien mythology. Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. Following is a summary of what we have discussed.

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things continued on the “current” course, Liz and Max would end up married, and all H#@* would break out, resulting in the Earth’s being taken over in 2014 – all due to the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging. But lets go back to the beginning, since few (if any) questions re: that connection were answered in TEOTW.

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is – maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet (is she the true love of Max’s previous life?), or a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth, or was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early and was humanized by her human parents (Though this seems less and less likely after TEOTW, why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz?), or was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group, or could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that are all human (according to Harding) BTW. Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents, does she have a connection to the Indians or an alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble – and how this plays into the connection with Max? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her? Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago, a race somehow connected to the podsters’ people? How does the Granolith fit into this? We now know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. Was it used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine –so did other have a chance to us it this way?). What is the intended purpose? (So, many questions … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the human race and the podsters’ people. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being been split between two beings – Max and Liz? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities? (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess !) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no??

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart, then again Liz followed her heart a believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene, and now Maria tells Max to follow his heart, like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another?

The symbolism throughout the seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather need both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Viking (?) Ship that is tied to a tale directly relevant to our star-crossed lovers and their trials. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode that Liz must sacrifice her love to ensure peace. There are lots of others! Coincidence??

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young bride has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? Though many seem to accept that it probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences?), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods? If this is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision, and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY ISN’T ANYONE READING WHITAKER’S FILES!!!!

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, and now potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (she was the one that sent FM back in time and the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out in Destiny is the former leader of his people. Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” Max, and bring him into “balance”? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many have expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz is capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. Will she be the one able to SEE the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do).

All of Liz’s visions has been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW seems to confirm somewhat)? Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, analogist to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)??

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library) and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1??)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! hummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication, SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also (Thanks Nemo, WR, et al), here is one part of Venus that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes!

Could it be that the 4 squares (podsquad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the podsquad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy, and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (in Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

Many have wondered if the "evil" aliens – Skins - might also be from the podsquad's planet, just part of a civil war - therefore, having similar characteristics and powers to Harding's type of alien. The Skins seem to have similar powers – but no shapeshifting has been seen, yet, by them. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? We now know there were other pods planted at the same time, but where and what happened to them? Could there be more than one set of podsters that will show up later? Clones? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him – why? And are they another race of aliens (a third race of aliens), or one of the two “know” aliens? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the chosen human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the podsquad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2??

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the podsquad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands.

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across:
1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 12th grade
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to sum up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, and that together Max and Liz make an incredible force to be reckoned with!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO Spoilers, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

we know that liz saw "the evil within" when she kissed nacedo.

during the momogram.." you will note them only by the evil within" maybe mom knows about liz and her connection w/ max and maybe she is directly talking to liz... "..you.."
it seems that liz get the tips up on the bad people.. she was uneasy about ed/nacedo, tess. she stumbled upon cw. in all her efforts to avoid max, she isn't focusing on feeling the "vibe" on the bad aliens. w/ the skins exposed and liz returning to work at the crashdown, maybe she can rechannel or whatever.

yeah tess is referred to max's bride. if they got married, shouldn't she be referred to wife? maybe she was a bride to be?

Check out the lyrics to FEAR, the song that played in the pilot when Max healed Liz and when he did the reverse connection with her.

quote:Sarah Mclachlan - Fear

Morning smiles like the face of a newborn child innocent, unknowing

Winter's end promises of a long lost friend. Speaks to me of comfort

but I fear I have nothing to give.
I have so much to lose here in this lonely place. Tangled up in your embrace
there's nothing I'd like better than to fall.

but I fear
I have nothing to give.

Wind in time rapes the flower trembling on the vine and nothing yields to shelter from above
They say temptation will destroy our love. The never ending hunger

but I fear
I have nothing to give
I have so much
to lose here in this lonely place
tangled up in our embrace
there's nothing I'd like better than
to fall

but I fear
I have nothing to give
I have so much to lose
I have nothing to give
We have so much to lose...

Do you know what I fear?
You know what I fear.

Was that a clue from the very beginning that Max and Liz were LONG LOST FRIENDS who love each other and have to be careful not to give into TEMPTATION too soon?

If not it was a pretty big coincedence!

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

Ohio/Ktucky/Indy Roswellians-Join the Cincy party! @ http://www.egroups.com/group/TriStateRoswellians
OKI's Unite!

Just a few comments and I am off to work:

1) Liz as a mentor to Tess - IF (and in my mind that is a HUGE "if") Tess turns out to be "authentic" - I could maybe see this happening. But - I am hedging all my bets on Tess being a cold-hearted, back-stabbing EA imposter. I dont think she is going to be around a whole lot longer - as her behavior seems to be getting weirder each episode. Seriously - the one thing that stuck out about Harvest was just how CREEPY Tess was acting. If TPTB were going to make Tess a good guy - and authentic part of the pod squad - I would think that after EOTW we would have seen her act LESS suspicious - not MORE suspicious.

As to the 64,000 question - if Tess is an EA why doesnt she just tell them where the granolith is??
1) maybe they need the "key" we have been speculating about to make it work
2) maybe she has realised that that information puts her in a VERY powerful position - maybe she is hoping to overthrow Nicolas as the skin's leader.

GraceKel - I should be able to look up the backwards "c"s today :-)

WR

NoDak

(Sorry if I started the thread too early, but I seem to not be able to get it right - we were so close to 250, I didn't want it shut down before I was able to get back to set up the new thread.)

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Thread 14 (which is really part of 13 and covers TEOTW) is at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LzMyth14.htm

By thread 16 we will have one link for all old Liz's Importance to the Mythology Threads.

SweetJo, great post. Also ties in with Michael's old line about, "Maybe that's how we're supposed to find out about who we are: by connecting with humans." There's a discussion going about heroes and heroines and quests and the necessity of confronting the enemy all of which is intitiated by an event (the shooting in the crashdown). If the shooters remain anonymous, it would be very different than if it was part of the EA's plan.

P.S. The missing thread #10 is now up at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizThread10.htm . It has posts made when Ask Not aired.

I was just reading the introduction, and thought I'd point it out...dont know if anyone else has yet...

I dont know if anyone has mentioned this because I didnt get a chance to read every thread, but In the episode Harvest... when they were in the church for the funeral, one of the skins..the minister? held up his hand, using his power like he was going to do something to Max, which was yellow and Max did his new little power where he blocks it, which was green so it was green against yellow

Maybe if there are more than one type of good or evil aliens, they all have a separate color for their powers? blue,red,green,yellow...etc.
The only thing is, when the Michael and Iz used their powers to kill Peirce and CW the power that came from their hand was yellow! Could this be because Iz (Vilandra) betrayed her brother and her race so it made her "evil" and that Michael was told by Courtney that they thought he should be the true leader, maybe he had done something/anything even small that changed the way he felt about being loyal to Max which made him somewhat "evil"? OR could it just be that since both of them killed someone, it made them "evil" or they yellow just indicated that they were using their power for "evil"?

Something to think about

Also Zero- you said yeah tess is referred to max's bride. if they got married, shouldn't she be referred to wife? maybe she was a bride to be? Well I heard that they never actually got married because she died before they had a chance to (Oh, too bad :lol

*GalaxyGrl*

I haven't been around much because I rely on taped episodes to get my fix. Anyway, imagine my anger to finally get home, all excited to finally get to see TEOTW and Harvest only to find that when I reset the time on my vcr 2 weeks ago, I accedintly turned the P.M. to A.M. so I never got to see the episode I've been waiting 3 weeks to see! Thank goodness the Crashdown has transcripts! But it's still not the same.

You'll have to excuse me if anything I say sounds unlogical because I haven't actually seen the last two episodes.

I noticed on the transcript at the Crashdown that when Liz asks Kyle if he saw flashes when Max healed him, he gave me the impression that no such thing happened. This must mean that:
1.It wasn't Max's healing that changed Liz, but rather the reverse connection, or a combination of the two.
2.Max's healing Liz only awakened something already withen her or
3.Max's healing has absolutely nothing to do with Liz's flashes and it is all just a coincidence (very unlikely)

Yes, I know this is a subject that has been beaten to death, but at least now we have proof of something. Exactly what I'm not sure.

I also want to mention something that I noticed after reading TEOTW. Do any of you watch Buffy: the Vampire Slayer? I'm not really a big fan myself, but I did notice some corilations between the M/L relationship and the Buffy/Angel relationship.

B and A weren't "supposed" to be together but they had a "great love" and are each others "love of a lifetime". However, after they..ahem..."consumate" everthing, a series of reactions (including Angel loosing his soul)that will mean the end of the world. In order for Buffy to save the world, she must kill Angel. After killing Angel, he eventually comes back to life for a "second chance". Only now B and A can never be together again for fear of the past repeating itself.

Sound familiar?

L and M who aren't "supposed" to be together. L/M "consumat everthing", eventually leading to the "End of the World". Future Max comes back to ask Liz to do something that will cause his future self to never exsist, meaning that she ultimatly "kills" him. This leaves present Max with a "second chance", only now Liz knows that she and Max can never be together for fear of the past/future repeating itself.

May L/M 's relationship have a happier ending than B/A's.

Something to think about anyway.

RW

Maybe if there are more than one type of good or evil aliens, they all have a separate color for their powers? [B]
This is not a new theory, but a repeat from posts last summer.

I have a theory about this that I've been toying with for a few months. The word focus comes up a lot in season one. The podsters learn to "FOCUS" there powers. Well, in order to focus a camera, you need a lens. And a lens is a device that manipulates light. It can break white light into colors. If the podsters have an interal lens they use to focus powers, then I think that they could be infact giving off a colored light. Green could be Max's internal color (in the books Max's auro is emerald green) and it's visable when he uses his power.

BTW-- the lens can be shared with a human through the "connection". As shapeshifter said, "Max has glasses in a near sighted world, but he lets Liz borrow them from time to time."

Are we talking a Backward C next to a forwards C --- like this ')(' or two backward C's like this '))' ?

WR

MILTON says in 285South as a Concerned Citizen(those two C's again) and Cash Cow(those two C's again)--is there a connection to Milton.

And I hate to think that find I made on Pete's Lift Off Auto Parts man being in a husk was just Roswell being cheap and hiring same old actors-----I think it has to mean something, of course I am of the belief that everything in every episode is somehow a clue, but you don't catch them all right away some take a long time to PULL out of an episode. LOL!!!! Oh one more thing I noticed in 285 S when Maria goes to pay PETE's Liftoff man they show the word service 3 times listed but cut off to only reveal VICE VICE VICE---now how many times do we see that VICE thing anyway before we know its a clue of something???

I am sorry I cannot remember the names of the newbies who posted on the other thread but NEMO, myself and Rocklowery all pretty much came up with the same idea of Liz possibly being from another alien race wanted to marry her but enemies of this pairing on both sides of the aisle were against it and might have killed them on their wedding day and that Tess is not who she thinks she is she is a SUBSTITUTE either through tampering of some sort or whatever.

I doubt this means anything, but ...
If you reverse both the C's, '()' and strike a bar down the second C, you get the letters on the signs in the Crash Down. CD.

WR

Starbox - I keep forgeting to thank you for the information you found on dragons. I thought it sounded just like Liz and Max!!

GraceKel - OMG!! The male husk next to Courtney's IS the man from Pete's Lift Off!! HOW did you ever remember him!!The fact that he was in the first little room of husks makes me wonder about his importance to the big picture. I always found it odd that he was paying Maria $126.00 for an inflatable alien. I've seen them for $4.99 but you have to blow them up yourself. I seriously doubt there was a $121.00 charge to have it self inflate!! Hmmmm does that mean that Amy Deluca is now suspect for her dealings with him? Who is Maria's father anyway?

I've been thinking about the husks and what Nicholas said about them, that it took 20 years to nurse them from spores to maturity. So, I looked up spores.

Spore - 1) a small reproductive body produced by mosses, ferns,etc and capable of giving rise to a new individual 2) any seed, germ etc.

Courtney likens the husk to a tree & says their relationship to it is esentially parasitic. Walt has on a hat with a corn type. Does this mean the husks are organic?

Starstruck

I shall believe

Imagine the Planet Earth, stripped of it’s oceans. It would appear to have two distinct levels, the ocean floor and the continents. The continents, on average 4000 metres above the ocean floor cover about one third of the Earth’s surface.

Venus, by contrast, is very much on one level. Most of its surface is covered by a flat plain. There are however, three major highland regions, occupying in total one tenth the area of the whole planet. Except for the first two discovered, all features have feminine names, an allusion to the goddess of love . So ‘Sapphos’, ‘Leda’, and ‘Helen’ rub shoulders with ‘Guinevere’, ‘Colette’ and ‘Lise Meitner’.

Two of the highland areas are named ‘Aphrodite’ and ‘Ishtar’. ‘Aphrodite’, Greek goddess of love, also means “Born of the sea.” ‘Ishtar’ is the Babylonian Goddess of Love, and a form of the name ‘Esther’.
Esther was a captive Jewish girl who was exiled to Persia during the reign of ‘Ahasueras’. The King had just deposed his consort, ‘Vashti’, and chose ‘Esther’ in her place, giving her the Persian name meaning ‘star’. ( I’m sure we can tie and into that???)

The third upland region is called ‘Beta Regio’. Now, I don’t know this for a fact, but I have a feeling that ‘Regio’ is some Latin/foreign form of “Queen” (sort of like Regina?). The best bit, though, is that Beta is a form of …….
Elizabeth !!!

There are two active volcanoes on ‘Beta Regio’. All evidence suggests that these volcanoes have had a big part to play in the shaping of Venus, not only in the past, but recently too. It appears that one or the other is still active. These are called ‘Rhea Mons’ and ‘Theia Mons’. ( ‘Rhea’ – an ancient earth goddess, ‘Theia’ – derivation of Latin word for goddess? )
Venus is still being ‘shaped’, perhaps a clue to the fact that is not yet who she will eventually become (??) , a process started by :. Remember her speech in the eraser room, during TMA? Something about how is she going to become who it is she is supposed to become with people watching her? She wishes she could be invisible? Venus is covered in a dense cloud, making it’s features invisible while it becomes what it is it will become.

And the most amazing fact of all --- There is one part of Venus that is named after a male. On the Ishtar ‘continent’, the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes!.

I kid you not.

So, plenty of food for thought there. Can anyone add anything to the names? I found a map of the features of Venus (the planet, NOT Liz ), in an old book I picked up years ago. I’m not sure how it will scan, but is it worth trying and posting it in here?

Enjoy!
WR

And, of course, Max needs Liz's brains to succeed this time around. But I really think in the end they should get their white picket fence etc. and not have to be rulers anymore.

Also:
quote:orginally by WR...Esther was a captive Jewish girl who was exiled to Persia during the reign of ‘Ahasueras’. The King had just deposed his consort, ‘Vashti’, and chose ‘Esther’ in her place, giving her the Persian name meaning ‘star’. ( I’m sure we can tie Max and Liz into that???)Well, maybe, I never got the impression Esther in anyway loved the king. She volunteered to be his wife at the bequest of her uncle to save her people. But maybe this is the romantic roswellian version. And maybe GC or RD are the in the uncle role.

And the most amazing fact of all --- There is one part of Venus that is named after a male. On the Ishtar ‘continent’, the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes!.

LOL! VERY cool info WR!
And i always wondered why Max was a Maxwell and not a Maximillian.

***StarBox***
dreamer, mythologist

Grace Kel - I hate to burst your bubble, but I grew up with a mom who worked in the industry (behind the scenes), and it was very common to use the same extras, or people from behind the scenes, in small parts, especially crowd scenes which I would consider the developing Skins to be. I would like to think the production staff knows there are people like us who dissect every scene, but the same actor may have been cast out of convenience and nothing more.

WR - I've watched Buffy since the beginning, and though I have never been obsessed with it - like Roswell - I wondered about the parellels of the two relationships. The BIG difference to me is that Buffy stands alone fine (thought the B/A relationship was wonderful), while the soul of Roswell is the connection between Max and Liz - without that connection, the show is not the same, and I doubt I would be that interested in it. Now, I do agree that TPTB may decide to go down the aliens only road, but it they do I will be one (of many) fan that will go bye-bye. I like Sci-Fi, but ... On the otherhand, I have always liked Buffy because of the strong female character that Buffy represents - that super heroine thing - surrounded by her own Scooby Gang with a great sense of wit! The Buffy/Angle couplingwas interesting, but was never the soul of the show to me - it was and is the struggle of Buffy to find her identity in the world. There are many parallels that can be made between the Max and Buffy characters, but I feel that the way Roswell was developed, it was the "connection" between the aliens and the humans, especially the L/M connection, that was the primary premise for the show. I'm waiting to see where they go with it this year now that the Sci-Fi side is being played up. So far, it has been okay - I just want a few loose ends tied up from last season. The one nice thing about Buffy, it always ties up loose ends!

Sorry about the long ramble.
Zero
I Shall Believe!

I've only been checking the message boards for about 2 weeks, but I already feel that I kind of "know" so many of you. Thanks, Zero, for keeping us moving forward. Thanks to all the rest of the repeat posters. Some of you are real characters, but I love being drawn into your thoughts. Keep it up!

Chica

I don't think, however, that M/L will share the same fate. Their relationship WAS after all the original basis of the show. I think that the writers are just trying to pull in more viewers by giving the characters plenty of strife. I knew the first season that M and L will probably not be together a lot early in the show. If the writers want the characters to remain interesting for 7 or 8 years (hopefully) then they can't just put the principle couple together during the first season and have them live happily ever after.

Oh, dear! sorry about that. I love to read so I just go of on tangents about plots and writers and so on, sometimes.

RW

When I was looking up GraceKel's backwards "C's" symbol - I came across a description of a symbol that sounded strikingly familiar.
"Two crescent moons arranged point to point with a dot in the center"
I did some research - and this is the symbol on the FRONT of Tess's "alien mating" book.
It is also repeated in the pages of the book and on the desert floor in the "visions". I have some screencaps - one of Tess's hand holding the book with this one symbol clearly positioned underneath it. But I dont know how to post them.
(If someone is an expert knows how to move pictures - these are both on the first page of the Rebel Alliance thread - please post them here if you can :-)
The symbol looks kind of like this ( ) with a dot in the middle.

Anyway - it is the symbol for the Black Moon - which also symbolizes Lilth. Lilith symbolism goes well with many of the theories of Tess as an unwanted "bride" that Max is forced to marry.
Here is the story of Lilith:
"Lilith was the name given, in kabbalistic tradition, to the woman created before Eve, at the same time as Adam, and not from his rib, but like him, fashioned directly frm the earth. She claimed equality with Adam since both were created from the dust. This lead to a quarrel... and Lilth in her anger fled to begin her mission of she-devil.
Lilith was to become the for of Eve, promoting ADULTERY and EXTRAMARITAL relationships.
As a wife suplanted by another woman, Lilth was to stand for the hatred of family life, marriage and children. Unable to integrate within the structure of human society, with its interpersonal and group relationships, she was cast into the abyss of the ocean depths where she continues to be tortured by her preverted desire which prevents her from taking part in normal realtionships.
Lilith is the 'nocturnal female satyr who tries to seduce Adam and to give birth to the phantom creatures of the wilderness'.
She is to be compared to the BLACK MOON, with the shadowy world of the unconcious and jealousy.

Here is a bit about the BLACK MOON:
"The black moon is the unlucky aspect of the moon. It is a symbol of annihilation, of dark and malevolent passions, of hostile energies to be overcome, of the absolute void and the black hole with its terrifying powers of attraction and absorption.

**StarBox**
dreamer, Mythologist

Starbox - WOW - totally cool stuff about Lillith and the symbol (.) ! Love that book you have!

Zero
I Shall Believe! (Even if it takes to the end of the season - but Max better not get all kissy-face with Tess, or they WILL lose me fast!)

This was marvellous when Starstruck posted it (on a thread long gone, alas), and it still is. Good of you, WR, to find it again and restore it. I have heard that about 50 people a day discover this board, so there must be lots of readers who haven't seen this gem, and it seems too good to miss.

quote:Originally posted by Starstruck:
JUST BUMPING

Instead of saying "I told you so," you just moved the above post to where more people could see it. Bless you.

I have some screencaps - one of Tess's hand holding the book with this one symbol clearly positioned underneath it. But I dont know how to post them.
(If someone is an expert knows how to move pictures - these are both on the first page of the Rebel Alliance thread - please post them here if you can :-)

Here are your pictures. The explanation is below.

A key step in posting pictures is to find the image location. If you find the image posted somewhere, right-click on it. On the menu that appears, choose "copy image location." (Or whatever is the equivalent, on your browser.) Then go to where you're editing your message, and hit "paste." The location of the image will appear. Now put [ img ] before it and [ / img ] after it, except omit the spaces that I used here. Then it should be ready to post.

There is a large gallery of images you can get to via the Episodes page. (Sometimes the Slideshow buttons work, sometimes they don't, but the Images section seems to work more consistently.) That's where I got one of your pictures. The other one I found where you said, on the Rebel Alliance thread, and the image gallery is where they got it from.

In case you forget some of this (like me), there is a way to rediscover it: Above every post there is a row of icons, and the last one on the right is "Reply with Quote." Besides its normal use for quoting, one other thing this icon lets you do is to learn from the example of others. It lets you see how they achieved whatever special effects they are using. (While studying by this method, just watch that you don't hit the "Submit" button and post something you didn't mean to.) That's how I learned to post pictures, and a few other things....

How come we didn't learn Michael's name in Harvest? Nicholas was having a one on one confrontation w/him he could have used his real name like they did w/Isabel.

something definetely is stange w/Tess. Could she be remembering that she WAS the reason they all died. Maybe former Tess came up w/the plan about Vilandra and Kavar, to break up he group. I am going toward that Kavar was in love w/Vilandra, but she didn't love him back. Even though the cut scenes don't really count. originally the momogram said that Isabel was a warrior. Could she have been playing spy to get rid of the Skins, but the plan laid out by M/M/I went bust because Tess had a treasonous plan of her own. But the Skins didn't know that Vilandra was really a plant so they think she is still on their side. Because M/I being of the royal family and Michael being Max's second that didn't mean that Tess had to be in on their plan to get rid of the Skins.

This is my opinion if they go this way. I think that TEss could have been a skin before. Because they died and were remaid to be like humans she doesn't have to have the husks on Earth.

well i have a short theory in sexual healing how Liz saw the crash in the flashes well maybe she was not seeing maxes memory maybe she was seeing her own and being with max made her remember them again because maybe really liz is an alien and liz and max were together on the planet not max and t***....maybe that is why max is in love with liz not t***

Zero--I realize that they do use extras in repeated fashion throughout a show, but I guess the reason I thought this meant something is because they seem to make it a point for HIS HUSK to be right behind ISABEL when NIKOLAS is talking to her. In the exchange back and forth, this actor is shown several times-----not just a flyby or anything LOL. I could be wrong but as RBI's we should leave no stone unturned right? LOL!!! Now the writers may fall short but we never will.

Oh I forgot to thank you Zero for starting our new thread, we must really be getting to be experts at clue gathering because we seem to be plowing through threads more often.
these days. Beautiful job as always.

Oh and on my S theory I forgot GOOD OLD DR SANCHEZ-GC's doctor.

Zero, you’ve got a great point: I wish they would see the value of a strong couple like Max and Liz. Listening to FM describe his and Liz’s 14-year life together sounded anything but boring.

StarBox – Wow, wonderful info on Venus and great connection to the (·) symbol! Is the entity “Lilith” where the name for the Lilith Concerts came from?

Ree99

Wow STARBOX that is quite a symbols book you have there, incredible stuff.
As fas as the C's go the one on TESS's books is not the same as the one I am talking about these c's are )( are back to back like this but the backs are closer together.

Zero--I just read your post about the show and couldn't agree with you more---I fell MADLY in LOVE with this LOVE STORY between Liz and Max so much that it made me want to TAKE THIS SCI-FI JOURNEY with them and last season was an INCREDIBLE JOURNEY, a REAL MASTERPIECE in fact I am so glad I taped all the episodes and have copies to spare on some of them, that said this season seems off to me, in many ways like it is a different show and I am not too happy about it, it was the strength of last years eppy's that are keeping me hanging in so far this season, quite frankly anyone NEW to ROSWELL this season I feel sorry for them because I don't SEE how they could possibly CONNECT to the characters--who in many ways have been reduced to action figures, moving from one thing to another, without any down time to reflect on what is happening to all of them.
I am clinging to the hope that this show not unlike a pendulum might have swung too far in one direction but will soon recover its balance. I ONLY KNOW WHAT I AM HOPING FOR.

anyway, i was looking at the symbols on the alien manual. if you look at the left page and you see a swirl. if you turn your head to the right and look at it sideways, doesn't it look like an unborn fetus? (sorry nurse in me talking) i mean like a tadpole. the symbols must represent the history of how they came about. who does have that manual, by the way? in the podsters' search for who they are, maybe they should have shown it to nacedo, before he was dusted, and have him decipher it. or take it to the indian reservation and work together in interpreting what it means. just how did tess know that the manual was there, anyway?
a plant, maybe?

Just added the Venus info to the introduction!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I am sorry that I did not see that Starstruck had already revealed this information. Didn't want to steal anyone's thunder. So well done Starstruck!

WR

Angst bunny? Now there's a mental image, Ree!

See, the thing about Buffy/Angel is that we knew from the beginning that it was NEVER going to work out for them. The genius of Joss & Co. was that they let the audience spend almost four years hoping for the best, only to smash that hope pretty much completely, and then just keep going with the rest of the story while we sat there with our mouths hanging open. Diabolical? Yes. Good storytelling? HELL YES!

With Roswell though, they set up M/L as such a natural, strong couple first, and then yanked the rug. Diabolical? Yes. Good storytelling? Well... Actually this is a tactic that I have always found irritating and destracting in television because it's kind of obvious. And Roswell doesn't need to be obvious because it's actually a good show with intelligent viewers.

OK...Once again a post has run away from me and become a rant. Sorry folks!

I just rewatched some of my favorite shows from the 1st season, and there are a couple other things I miss in this 2nd season. I really enjoyed Liz's voice over reflections. They only used this the first part of the season, but I think that really helped us identify her. Another thing, they used a Liz/Maria conversation to contrast to a Max/Michael conversation, kind of like a flip side of the coin. To illustrate: in RD Maria is telling Liz that Michael is like a vibrator--he sends out these vibes. It immediately switches to M/M/I in the car with Michael saying the same thing. In SH Liz is talking to Maria in the restroom and says, I'm sure you just said to yourself, Go for it. The scene changes and Michael says to Max something like, So I just decided to go for it. In TLV Harding asks Liz what her boyfriend's name is and Tess answers, Max. Immediately the scene switches to outside with Iz saying, Max, as he runs up to the window. These are just a few instances, but they used this kind of contrast all the time and I loved it. Sometimes it helped to illustrate that although you had the humans on one hand and the aliens on the other, there was really little difference in how they thought and felt. And sometimes it was just a neat play on words. I also wish the 2nd season would slow it down just a bit with the action. I think that will get old to the viewing audience much faster than allowing Max and Liz to remain together.

(OK, they also had some cheesy dialogue in the first season, but I'll even take back the cheese if they will only give us Liz & Max back!)

I just hope that in an effort to supposedly keep up the suspence and draw this thing out, the writers aren't going to do a Mulder/Scully thing where we have to be satisfied with a glance between these 2 every couple episodes. That just won't do it for me!

Chica

YEAH!!!! Its my pictures!!!!!! THANK YOU NEMO!! And thanks for the instructions!

Okay - if you all look at the cover of the book - the TWO CRESCENT MOONS WITH A DOT IN THE MIDDLE. This is the symbol for "the black moon/Lilith" - my whole long explanation of this is a few post up on this page. You see the same symbol again repeated in the book on the right hand page. You can also see the symbol on the desert floor in one of Max's "Four Square" post TESS "visons".

GraceKel - I know this isnt the same as your symbol - Im still working on that one. But when I was researching it I came across the description of "two crescent moons point to point with a dot in the middle" and I KNEW I had seen that symbol before - lo and behold - it was in TESS's hands!!

Implication? Maybe Max was supposed to marry Tess (evil skin) to bring peace to his county. He chose instead to marry Liz (follow his heart). They were all killed on the wedding day.
Tess (Lilith) - in the meantime - was also sent back to earth to get revenge and help destroy the GA once and for all. Perhaps she was aided by some "rebel" good aliens (Harding??? if there are rebel skins - it makes sense that Harding could have been a rebel GA) - that figured a way to create a hybrid of her as well.
I know this theory has been more or less presented numerous times - but I just wanted to tie it in with the "Lilith" symbol that Tess has.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

With all of this talk of Venus, which I love by the way, I wanted to check with all of you slo-mo/grace-kellers to see if in any of Liz's flashes in this mixed-up season 2 we have seen that V constellation? I just rewatched her flash in EOTW and there was no V. I'm sorry but I cannot watch skin and bones again. I absolutely hated it. So for those of you in the know please tell me, because I really want the Venus thing to come into play and am worried that they threw that baby out with the bathwater as well.

I've noticed that we are all really worried about the Max/Liz relationship. I just know that it will work out. We have to try to stay positive no matter how hard it is!!

You guys make my day every day! I love your ideas.

I agree completely. By profession, I am actually a literary agent, and represent a lot of romance authors. One cardinal rule in romance (books, but same applies to M/L on the show) is that the couple must constantly be overcoming obstacles to their love. In fact, the way I always define romance is exactly that way. Of course, as dreamers, we'd think, "well ,couldn't those obstacles be on the OUTSIDE of the relationship??" But its just not as dramatic and tension filled. Much more romantic for them to have so much to overcome. In fact, I just can't wait to see how the writers pull this situation off!

This follows the theory of the third 'run' of our "Lola" tie in, the bumpiest road leading to the greatest happiness?

WR

That which does not kill us makes us stronger.

I watched the Pilot episode again, and I just wanted to point out that Liz checked both her and Max's cells from the inside of her cheek, and his were much different. I was just wondering how we can reconcile the "Liz is an alien" theory knowing that info. I like the theory (maybe on the last thread) of Liz and her family being the designated guardians of the Granilith. I would like to see the show deal more with the Indian mythology and GC and the Parker's part in Roswell for the past 4 generations, too.

I love the information about Venus and all the symbolism you have all brought up! Seems like too many instances and to fit too closely to be mere coincidence! I mean, Maxwell Montes on Venus thingimajig ? And the Beta Regio thing??? (Sorry, I'm horrid with remembering names ) How neat is that!!!!

For me, it would work if she'd been removed from the pod early...then perhaps her alien essence hadn't been fully realized, i.e. she was more human. Then, when Max healed/reverse connected, that would have begun to tap into that. I know, of course, this has been said previously, but just thought I'd answer your question.

I was just thinking that even though Max maybe the King of his planet, Maybe Liz is the leader of the cause to save their planet. That is if she is alien or half-alien like everyone seems to be hoping about. She is after all making all the critical decsions in their relationship, and seems to get the pod squad out of trouble all the time. She seems at times more of a leader than Max ever thought about being. girl power rules no matter what planet your from.

anyone have any thoughts?

WoW! at first I wasn't sure about Liz being Venus, but that is just a little too much coincedince.

With all of this talk of Venus, which I love by the way, I wanted to check with all of you slo-mo/grace-kellers to see if in any of Liz's flashes in this mixed-up season 2 we have seen that V constellation? I just rewatched her flash in EOTW and there was no V. I'm sorry but I cannot watch skin and bones again. I absolutely hated it. So for those of you in the know please tell me, because I really want the Venus thing to come into play and am worried that they threw that baby out with the bathwater as well.

I've noticed that we are all really worried about the Max/Liz relationship. I just know that it will work out. We have to try to stay positive no matter how hard it is!!

You guys make my day every day! I love your ideas.

I'm a bit behind - so sorry if this has already been answered, but I believe that when Max grabs Liz's arm outside the CD in S&B, the first vision is of the V Constellation. Or was it in the KISS in Whitaker's office after Max discovers Liz was trying to fix him up with Tess in TEOTW. I know it has shown up in one - if not both of those.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

[/B]

Hello All...just a thought, but in S047 weren't one of the pods leaking some black gunky (great word) stuff into a bucket? Does anyone else remember that or am I crazy??? Could this perhaps be the substance that somehow ended up being a part of Liz? Why else would they have made it a point to show that? I'm sure it means something...however, it could be a lot of different things.

Here's my theory...Since the Gunky stuff came from an undeveloped pod (no human genetic material had developed yet) this could be the alien essence. I think that the nurse in S047 was actually GC - remembered she disappeared, maybe they gave her a new identity or something. I think that somehow she smuggled this black gunk out of there -- for evidence or perhaps to study it, she is a ballsy woman after all, and what resulted was GC being the keeper of the "alien essence". Somehow that alien essence became part of her (maybe she drank it or took a bath in it or her soulmate, one of the Good adult aliens, asked her to inject the essence into her so that it would survive!) and that essence was passed down to Liz.

I know this idea is not well developed and perhaps said with a bit of humor, but it's only my 3rd post and you get the idea!!! If there's anything to these thoughts, I'm sure ya'll will develop it further!

As always, thanks for listening and keep thinking those good thoughts...

Metaphysicalgrl

{~}:} Without Love In The Dream It'll Never Come True {~}:}

Captain Planet!

You know how each of the heros had a ring that gave them a special power (earth, fire, ...etc.) that really worked the best when you, ..snicker.. , "let the powers combine" oh dear, I can't believe I'm posting this!
(finally getting the laughter under control)
Anyway, suppose that the podsters are the four elements....(Max-earth, because he keeps everyone else so grounded, Michael-fire, because he's so hot-headed,...etc) That would still leave the fifth power which was "heart". If you'll remember, Venus was the goddess of beauty and LOVE. I think you see where this is going....

Sorry about the strange post! Just can't get over the thought of Max saying "Let our powers combine!"

RW

Notice the Tess/Lilith symbol in the right hand upper corner. Max is standing with his shadow stretching away from the right ride - almost touching the "spiral" symbol.
I believe this spiral symbol represents Max/Liz together - notice the two spirals interwoven - similar to an image of YIN and YANG. In all the Max/Liz symbolism - the concept of yin/yang, balance is very prevalent. I believe this is also the same sign on the orb found in SH - another clue that ths symbol is closely linked to the union of Max and Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Hey SS! Glad I could be an inspiration. You have, in turn, inspired me. Those two little green men that we saw in S047, who are protecting the pods did come up to the nurse by the bus. She screamed because she saw them and they took her away. Noone on the bus saw anything because the aliens were making them see what they wanted them to see - nothing. It appears the nurse disappeared...but she didn't!!! Now that we have agreed on that. Here's what I think happened next...

That nurse was absolutely Grandma Claudia. The two aliens (who later turn out to be tic tac / Nasedo) implanted the nurse (GC) with the leaking essence (Max's Bride?), and then befriend her and make her sympathetic to their cause. Those two aliens shapeshift into Nasedo/Tic Tac, and one of them becomes Grandma Claudia's soulmate. I don't know if it was established that it was either Nasedo or Tic Tac who spent all that time on the Indian Reservation -- but whoever did --was Grandma Claudia's true love. This ties in with an earlier idea I had in my very first post about GC, soulmates and Leaving Normal...and would explain GC's interest in Indians...(her book).. Anyway...Tess was put in the pods after the others by someone who came back through the Granolith - resulting in her hatching later. Did Liz ever read Grandma Claudia's book? I bet it's all in there!!!

Build on this idea, please! I'm too tired to be coherent or to add more!!

It seems like a good theory...

{~}:} Nothing left to do but 'Smile,'Smile,'Smile {~}:}

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Notice the Tess/Lilith symbol in the right hand upper corner. Max is standing with his shadow stretching away from the right ride - almost touching the "spiral" symbol.
I believe this spiral symbol represents Max/Liz together - notice the two spirals interwoven - similar to an image of YIN and YANG. In all the Max/Liz symbolism - the concept of yin/yang, balance is very prevalent. I believe this is also the same sign on the orb found in SH - another clue that ths symbol is closely linked to the union of Max and Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox:

That is not Max but Michael.

Notice that Michael is standing in the middle of the "V". Didn't Courtney say that he could have pulled together the warring factions. If the symbols represent different factions, then Michael is standing on center ground.

maxcedo has more on symbols of the cave drawing at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/symbol.htm

and maxcedo has added a new page called archetypes at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/archetypes.htm

Scroll down to read about Kyle as Rocky Raccoon. LOL!

StarBox:

That is not Max but Michael.

Notice that Michael is standing in the middle of the "V". Didn't Courtney say that he could have pulled together the warring factions. If the symbols represent different factions, then Michael is standing on center ground.

********************************************

OOPS! It was included with the "Tess visions" of Max's on the Rebel Alliance thread so I assumed it was Max. <blushing>
I dont have last season on videotape and this is the one thing I miss the most - bot being able to rewatch the flashes/vision sequences - because they are not included in the transcripts.

I like your theory of Michael in the middle - and his shadow is still pointing away from the Tess/Lilth symbol - I think the way his shadow is casting definately has significance - I am wondering if ALL of the symbols are going to have unique and specific meanings??
Some of them look alot like alchemy symbols - but I havent found a comprehensive text with all the alchemy symbols in it yet.
I do suspect the spiral is symbolic of balance/yin-yang/Max&Liz union.

**StarBox**
dreamer,mythologist

As assumed, you've gone and had some great Liz thoughts over the weekend and made pages and pages for me to read and reread and read one more time! So.. don't have much until I do that!

Although.. can't WAIT for tonight!!!

Notice the Tess/Lilith symbol in the right hand upper corner. Max is standing with his shadow stretching away from the right ride - almost touching the "spiral" symbol.
I believe this spiral symbol represents Max/Liz together - notice the two spirals interwoven - similar to an image of YIN and YANG. In all the Max/Liz symbolism - the concept of yin/yang, balance is very prevalent. I believe this is also the same sign on the orb found in SH - another clue that ths symbol is closely linked to the union of Max and Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Thanks for the image! What I find most interesting is how the shadow underlines the one symbol with a triangle, three boxes and one open box, all with dots in them. Could this be Liz (up-side down V triangle - 5th element sent at another time), M/M/I (three closed boxes with dots) and Tess (open - leaking - box with dot). There has to be a meaning of significance that we don't know about yet, or else this symbol would not have been emphasized so!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I actually think that the original fortune may still hold true - which is why Katims didnt include the "new" fortune scene.
The "He chooses love - he chooses you" line has not really happened - and I dont know that it fit the TEOTW storyline. It seemed to me to be speaking of a CHOICE that Max was going to STRUGGLE with but ultimately choose Liz. We are only now seeing him struggle with whether or not to be with Liz - so maybe that fortune is still "good".

Zero - LOVE your interpretation of the symbol w/Liz and the leaking pod! Very cool.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I just thought about this. How come Isabel has used her dream walking power on everyone, but Liz. She first used it on Maria in Monsters, then Alex in Heatwave, and then Pierce in Destiny. This has to mean something.
Maybe when "Wipeout" comes on we'll get some more clues.

+ =
conquers all, even mind control.

Remember is half

I guess that's one way to look at it. I think that the Fortune Teller would have known. They can predict the future.. whether it's altered (with the visit from FM) or not (no visit), they can tell. Least, that's what *I* think.

As far as what the Spoiler Page said about some so-called ending scene. Blah. I hate spoilers!

I just thought about this. How come Isabel has used her dream walking power on everyone, but Liz. She first used it on Maria in Monsters, then Alex in Heatwave, and then Pierce in Destiny. This has to mean something.
Maybe when "Wipeout" comes on we'll get some more clues.

+ =
conquers all, even mind control.

Remember is half

Interesting point. Although she hasn't used it on Kyle or Valenti either, sooo...

I'm very curious about tonight.. and the disapperance.. and Liz. I heard a preview on the radio on the way to work about, "Max, Isabelle and Michael's fight". Then.. I heard Liz's voice screaming, "Max!". So.. she must still be around!?!? Also, why do you think there's always a focus on M/Mi/I in the previews and such, when it's SUPPOSED to be the four of them (M/Mi/I and T )?? Do you think they're trying to tell us something!?!?

As far as what the Spoiler Page said about some so-called ending scene. Blah. I hate spoilers!

There was a cut scene, where Liz goes back to the fortuneteller for another reading. Fortuneteller is puzzled: Liz's future is cloudy, no reading is possible. She's told that the future is open to her, she can make her own Destiny.

Max did choose love, the first time around. The second time, appearently someone hasn't chosen yet.

Remember:
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

Do you see the image in the bottom right hand corner that looks kind of like a 'house' tipped on it's side? There are 5 lines that meet the 'roof' anf join at the apex. Could this be our 4 + 1 as a unit? Or maybe there are 5 "Houses" vying for power on Planet Twilo, and Max is supposed to unify them.

Also, has someone already remarked on the significance of the 'swirly' image below Michaels feet? Could this perhaps be the solar system from which they came?

WR

I personally don't believe in fortune tellers - even though I had a great-grandmother who supposedly read tea leaves ... BUT I think, if they did shoot that last scene, they left it out because the comment by FM served the same - and it would disrupt what is agruable one of the best ending scenes of the show's second season! I can never get enough of that dance, with the final shooting star (FM's essence?) flying through the sky!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero - the BEST ending of the *series*--1st or 2nd season! I rewatch the dance and listen to SC and it brings such a feeling of loss... But it is really just joy postponed!

Chica

Hmmmmmmmmmm - could it be that she is an EVIL IMPOSTER???????????????
See below - photo of tess - mistress of evil - with demon/bat/gargoyle wings sprouting from her head. I posted this and two others shot from different camera angles - all showing the "winged demon effect" on the signs&symbols board.

Now to compare with Liz - here she is as Venus. Notice the "V" formation her shirt makes. This is the scene in AN where Max tells her he is coming for her <sigh>

Now another shot. Here notice the motif of the diamond on the left side of Liz and the light making a "V" formation to her right. Also note the two figures across from each other (Max and Liz?) inside the light of the "V".

I have been poring over screencaps today comparing Liz/Tess and although Liz has not had as much storyline this year (so far) I am REALLY encouraged by the way in which she is being shown. They are still incorporating all of her imagery/symbolism.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

STARBOX interesting symbolism you are finding there, where exactly did you get that book anyway? LOL!!!!

Thanks guys for the accolades regaurding Venus and the Maxwell Montes. (Starstruck is blushing)

Starbox - excellent info on Lilith!!! My mom and I are going on a shopping trip tomorrow (trying to get a jump on the Christmas shopping) and I'm going to look for that Symbolism book you told us about. Did you ever dream we could learn so much from a TV show?!

Cat8myhomework - I love your posting name, too funny!

Chica - I too miss Liz's voiceovers and her journel entries, they always made me feel like I had a connection to her as if she were talking directly to me. I am glad that in wipe out she's back in the Crashdown uniform!

Zero - OMG your description of what the symbol Michael's shadow underlines is PERFECT, and works for me!!! We're definetly on the same wavelength here as I have watched the Liz/Max dance and shooting star scene SOOOO many times I FEAR my tape may break in this spot! LOL

Agent Starstruck signing off for this evening.

I shall believe

STARBOX interesting symbolism you are finding there, where exactly did you get that book anyway? LOL!!!![/B]

WHY - at BARNES and NOBLE - the best bookstore on the planet :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer, Barnes and Noble employee :-)

You know what else is funny is if Liz and Tess turn out to be sisters because of the leaky pod. I've been considering the possibility that the gov't took the stuff and maybe used it to created their own hybrid. Maybe Jeff Parker or Nancy Parker, which skipped a generation and signs start to show up w/Liz. I still think it would be too obvious to make Liz an alien so I do still hold to ZERO's theory of past alien descendants.

I'm also starting to really notice the similarities to X-files. I never really thought about it before until talking to someone at work about the season premiere. They were asking if they thought that was really mulder and I told them I thought it was a SS. I almost thought I was confusing the two shows until I watched it last night. Sorry rambling about the wrong show,but just wanted to add some similarities.

TGIM

I like the "essence transfer" theory. I guess she could still be 100% human and carry the "signature" that would mark her as Max's mate or whatever.

Anyway, just a thought. Need sleep now!

WIPE OUT DISCUSSION TO FOLLOW

I am very confused by the whole ending. I just rewatched it about 20 times and here is what I dont get:

When Nikolas "mind rapes" Max - here is what he "sees" (this is what I GraceKelled a million times)
1) Liz (from Pilot???)
2) Michael (and it IS Michael) standing on the map.
3) Isabel right when she woke up from the "cliffhanger" dream in Four Square
4) The four square "pod" symbol
5) Cliff where the pod chamber is - from four square
6) Granolith

Okay - the 2nd and 3rd images - I dont think those are from Max's memory - they were part of the Michael/Isabel dreams in Four Square
AND - the Michael,Isabel, and 4 square symbol are all - possibly - connected to mind manipulations of Tess.
Also - Tess seemed REALLY nervous while this was going on.
Nicolas looked directly at Tess when he said "you always pick the wrong people to trust".

Anyone have ANY clue as to what this means???
Why werent the memories Max's?????????

And - the Tess "freak out" firestarter deal at the end. After looking at it many times - I dont think it was coming FROM Tess. It happened AFTER Maria destroyed the time bubble - and you could see an image that looked kind of like time folding in on top of/around Tess - then the fire came from behind her.
Also - afterwards - she didnt seeem the least bit phased - this from someone who almost collapses after she uses her "powers".

And finally - Nicolas must not be a "skin" in the same way as the rest of them.
He was never shedding or peeling - and all the others were. Also - I am pretty sure that was him on the scooter at the end.

1-LIZ
2- Michael and cave map
3 - Isabel in FS

4 - 4 square symbol (different from this screen cap which has M/M/I/T on it)
5- Pod chamber cliff - from FS

6- GRANOLITH

OKAY - WHY these images?????? They are not even all "Max's"

Once again, tonight, Liz was the character who displayed real intelligence, both in deducing the cause of the humans' disappearnce and formulating a plan to destroy the device. When is there going to be a Liz-focused episode again already? This doesn't necessarily mean a Liz and Max episode, just a Liz episode. In my mind, the lack of Liz has been season two's biggest failing. Liz and Max are the core of the show, but it was originally through Liz's perspective that Roswell came to life for us. It saddens me that new viewers won't be able to appreciate this. More Liz already!

LIZ WAS SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT TELLING MAX ABOUT HER AND KYLE. IT SEEMED IMPORTANT. MAYBE YOU SHOULD ASK ???

I also think there might be a slight chance Liz might be alien to some degree (but yet not be *physically* alien). Like some of mentioned already, she might carry *the signature* (an essence?) of some alien in her (which Max recognized when he was a boy), but still be 100% human physiologically.

I found it rather convenient, that of all our token humans, Liz is the only one we didn't actually *see* disappear. Granted, there could be nothing here, the important thing is she DID disappear. It also could have been no more than a dramatic effect. Could there have been something odd about Liz's disappearance that was different than the other humans?

quote:I want to voice my opinion on her powers. Did anyone else notice the super human strength Liz had tonight. I mean did you see the way she kicked that skin at the crashdown and he flew? It was truly awesome. No, one else seem to have been able to do that tonight. It was a really cool occurance. Maybe I am reading too much into things.

I think the one that was really showing the superpowers was Kyle, he threw down on that Skin! Buddha forgive him indeed... I'm loving that boy more every minute!

Melodious

Or, do you think that her sudden clarity was a because she was about to vanish? Sort of like the sheriff?

Also was glad to see Max showing how he still cares for Liz by following her up to her room when she was upset by her parents disappearing. Both of them showed their love for each other in little ways throughout the show. Now some more of that, please...?

One humerous note: couldn't they have come up with a slightly more dignified energy source--LOL!

Chica

LIZ WAS SAYING SOMETHING ABOUT TELLING MAX ABOUT HER AND KYLE. IT SEEMED IMPORTANT. MAYBE YOU SHOULD ASK ???

ROTFLMHO!! !!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

So, back to the topic at hand: I am now thinking something like FM knew that Liz was the only one smart enough and in the right place at the right time to save the podsters and the world, and that Max's recognition of her was a time warp memory. But falling in love with her was, well, like falling in love.

Yes - once again it is Liz who figures out the problem and comes up with a plan! Without her plan, and Maria's implementation (she is a great character!), I think the Royal 4 would have been toast. I think Tess mind blaze was a direct result of Maria's action, and time catching up with itself. Are the Skins dust? Nick's apparent appearance at the end seem to imply that not totally. Maybe, some of them have survived in another dimension. I have to rewatch the scene where Courtney talks about that, but it seems they (Nick in particular) have the ability to manipulate time dimensions somehow. Liz is the heroine here, or I should say, the humans are the saviors of the day! They are stronger when they work together!!

Now - about the disappearances, and the order in which they occured. I think it may have been tied to age. The oldest disappearing first. Valenti was much older, so he went more quickly. Now, we don't really know the ages of Liz, Kyle or Maria, but assume they were all born in the same year, but with Liz first, Kyle next and Maria being the youngest. This would account for why they disappeared in the order they did, but so close together in time. Somehow the time wrap affected them, but slowly based on age. Just a theory.

Now, as to Liz is an alien. Well, you all know I think that Liz is tied in somehow through Grandma Claudia, her family's long connection to the area, and the Indians. If she is part alien, I go with the decended from an ancient colonization. Thus, her "alien" side would be so diluted (or underdevelope at this time), that she would be affect just like other "humans." Plus, the phallic (sp?) beacon (I guess the Skins have a sense of humor ) may have been programmed to leave only podsters, and Liz, if of alien origin/decent, could be of a race different than Max.

Okay - I have to think some more (and rewatch the episode), before I say much more, but I do wonder about the flashes we saw Max have! Plus, can we PLEASE BE SPARED the touchy-feely Max/Tess interactions!! I do not think that Liz went up to find her parents, I think she left the room to get away from having to watch Max caress Tess' back! Okay - no ranting! I just wish the acting by one particular actress was up to par with the rest of the Scooby Gang!

One last thing - How is Max going to react to all the lies and deception?? Ummmmm.....

Zero
I Shall Believe!
PS - WELCOME to newbies and infrequent posters!!

Does anyone think it's a little odd that dry shed Skin has so far disintegrated when picked up by Michael, Max and now Liz .... but in HARVEST, it was presumedly Courtney's shed skin Maria picked up, yet it didn't disintegrate?? Do the shed skins possibly only disintegrate when an *alien* (or someone carrying an essence?) picks them up?

This is kind of paranoid I suppose, because I'd assume the Skins would disintegrate if *anyone* picked them up. I'd think the Skins wouldn't run the risk of humans finding them, one of them looking at it under a microscope and finding something interesting. Perhaps Maria wasn't holding the shed skin long enough for it to disintegrate? How would a shed skin *recognize* or *differentiate* being held by someone in particular, hence disintegrating with some but not with others?

Melodious

Anyway, I hope that we will continue to see the human interplay on this show. Kyle was absolutely great tonight and I hope we will see more of him (and his dad) in future shows! I would really love to see Kyle, Max Michael, and Alex stand together some day (against the forces of evil, that kind of thing).

I'm also thinking that Tess's overwhelming firepower was directly linked to Maria's destruction of the wipeout thingy (I was going to call it a mechanism, but it looked just too funny to call it that). After seeing Nikolas look at her during his speech to the four and then watching her actions as the scene played out made me think she's got something really big she is not sharing with the others - like maybe she and Nikolas are in cahoots.

Okay, one last thing... like many of you I MISS LIZ AND MAX'S RELATIONSHIP!

Ree

Does anyone think it's a little odd that dry shed Skin has so far disintegrated when picked up by Michael, Max and now [b]Liz .... but in HARVEST, it was presumedly Courtney's shed skin Maria picked up, yet it didn't disintegrate?? Do the shed skins possibly only disintegrate when an *alien* (or someone carrying an essence?) picks them up?

This is kind of paranoid I suppose, because I'd assume the Skins would disintegrate if *anyone* picked them up. I'd think the Skins wouldn't run the risk of humans finding them, one of them looking at it under a microscope and finding something interesting. Perhaps Maria wasn't holding the shed skin long enough for it to disintegrate? How would a shed skin *recognize* or *differentiate* being held by someone in particular, hence disintegrating with some but not with others?Melodious[/B]

Perhaps it has to do with the Power or Energy within the person holding the skin? Did the skin disintegrate when Harding picked it up before he was killed? I can't remember. Liz may not be alien - as we think of them - but may have great power or energy within her that has yet to be tapped!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero

I posted the above thinking I was stretching, but the "energy" thing would make sense. Although if humans don't have enough *energy* to make the shed skins disintegrate, I'd assume they do it eventually on their own... or they'd be lying everywhere, all over Copper Summit particularly. I'd feel sorry for the janitors there! Just like I feel sorry for that poor janitor in West Roswell High! Sheesh!! Wait until he gets around the corner and sees all that skin snow lying everywhere.

btw, I don't think Harding ever picked up the skin he saw in S&B, he just looked at it and got this distressed, "Oh no" look on his face.

Melodious

It looks like most of you have mentioned almost everything I was going to, except for part of Max's vision. When Liz was in the car with Kyle and Maria she was thinking of Max when she disappeared right, and part of Max's vision is looking out the car window. Was Max seeing what Liz was seeing when she disappeared? He saw Liz from SH (I'm sure a very precious moment for him, sorry a Dreamer here) Michael and Isabel's visions, the four square symbol, the rock formation and then the Granolith. I think Max saw these visions because of his deep connection with all three, but the stongest connection is with Liz. I just couldn't figure out why he saw the rock formation and the Granolith. Then the light came on, he was still seeing what Liz was seeing. It has already been mentioned how we didn't see Liz disappear, maybe because it was different then the others. What if Liz, or the Granolith it self, some how made her body travel to the Granolith. We have been discussing how Liz is connected to it, and what has more power then the Granolith. I don't think Tess was the one that caused that burst of flames. I think our dear Liz was saving her Max by using the Granolith. I wondered if Tess even realized that it wasn't her? I think she did, she tells Max she wouldn't want to try it again. Maybe because she never did it in the first place. But would Liz remember any of this? My guess is no, not until she completes the change, and if my theroy is correct, it won't be long, because it looks like the Granolith has found it's keeper, Liz. So what do you think my fellow RBI's?

Evid

I don't have anything interesting to add, but I saw someone's posting signature on another thread "at least my mom knows what species I am", which was said by Liz in 285 South. I had forgotten about that. I wonder, with all this part alien speculating going on, if this was foreshadowing?

Ree[/B]

I agree - when Max was being "mind raped" it really bugged me because he was seeing all these "visions" from last season that were highly suspect - during four square - Max, Isabel and Michael ALL expressed the feeling that these visions were somehow "from" Tess.
As the show is progressing - I am beginning to feel like I need to take the INSTINCT of the three of them much more seriously.
Also - at least two of them were visions that should NOT have been in Max's mind.
Now - rewatch Tess during this scene - we dont see Michael or Isabel's reaction to the mind rape - but Tess is literally freaking out - trying to get away. Is she about to be "exposed"?? If Max kept "flashing" - what else would he have seen?

Also - what happened to Courtney? She seemed way to weak to try to escape to find the granolith on her own. Could Tess have turned her over to the skins?? Nicolas said something like "look what one of my servants brought me". And Tess seemed WAY abnormally hostile to Courtney. After all Courtney did say the infamous "Trust me, NO ONE is after Tess". Did Courtney know something that Tess didnt want exposed?
And how did the EA get into the bomb shelter?
Tess is the one that says they "found a way in" and need to leave - a move that leads them straight to the school and the set-up.
It could have easily been a mind-manipulation on Maria to just make her THINK she saw the EA.

And - when Tess enters the Crashdown to blame Courtney - she comes in from the back - it looks like she is coming from Liz's house?? Where has she been?

I agree that there could easily be a Tess/Nikolas connection. They look about the same age too. They also both survived the firestorm. AND - Tess's mind warp and nicolas's mind-rape seem similar.
One thing my husband said a long time ago was that the mind warp thing was an "evil" power.
If you look at it from a standpoint of archetypical good/evil - with GOD on one side and SATAN on another. M/M/I's powers are all "good" - healing, forcefield, matter manipulation, ability to enter dreams/communicate on an unconcious level.
Mind manipulation however - that falls on the "satanic" side - Satan is called "the deciever" and his greatest ability is in his ability to lie and decieve.

Okay - LOTS of random thoughts. Can anyone help tie them together??? i think my big question is "What was going on during the mind-rape?" Does the fact that Max saw LIZ, MICHAEL, ISABEL - but no Tess imply that they are the "royal four". Could Nicolas have been looking for Liz's identity before he looked for the granolith? What is the connection between Nicolas/Tess? Are they working together or is Tess there to fight Nicolas on behalf of a darker power??? There are a whole lot of weird looks that pass between the two of them. Could it be that Nikolas is untrustworthy and is going to betray Kivar if he gets control of the Granolith?? Could Tess be working for Kivar - trying to betray Nikolas first???? Or is she working for her OWN power?

Any ideas????????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

And - the symbol in the grass w/RiverDog in Into the Woods - which I think is before Tic-Tac (good alien) shows up - that is the (good) yin-yang swirl.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I also have to say that the skin Liz picked up did designigrate. So she may be the alien, since when Maria touched the skin it remained intact. Although, Liz did disappear before Maria or Kyle. I wanted her to save the day!!

StarBox, I think you've made a very good, extremely plausible point here: could Tess have been the "servant" who delivered Courtney to him? VERY good idea.

After this eppy, I really believe that the two of them, Niko and Tess, have some type of relationship. The question in my mind: is it a cordial relationship or is Niko blackmailing Tess and coercing her to do what he wants? If so, what's he got on her?

Ree

Anyway, a question for StarBox. You said and I quote, "After all Courtney did say the infamous 'Trust me, NO ONE is after Tess'. Did Courtney know something that Tess didnt want exposed?" Cannot remember in where Courtney said this. Would you let me know? Will need to rewatch this episode.

Thanks.

Hope this helps.

Ree

What a great eppy!! Just a few thoughts since I've only seen Wipeout once..

1) I'm with everyone who wonder HOW Courtney "got out" of the UFO - or how she was captured. We saw Nick and Ma Whittaker with Iz in the bus, then *boom* they're with Courtney on some side of the road? Hmmm...

2) Am I nuts or did that Skin/Old Lady in the UFO (that came out and attacked Maria) look like Grandma Claudia at first glance? I honestly thought it was a picture of GC hanging in the UFO and I started freaking (prior to it "coming alive") thinking OH MY GAWD - THAT'S GOT TO BE A CLUE!!

3) I don't know what to think about the last scene with Max and the Nick and the fire with T Something's off. It looked as if the fire was coming from behind T like some sort of demonic action, ya know? Typically, T creates those images so that "people" think something's happening when it's not, but SHE'S not usually in the image, ya know? Why not creat this fire effect IN FRONT of the Pod Squad? Unless.. something else was happening there! I'm going to have to think about this one for a while.. seems VERY odd!

4) Finally, Nick? At the end? How could that be? Someone mentioned the theory about Nick being able to timewarp himself. Why him? Why is HE so advanced? What was his role on Plant Twilo? And again.. why doesn't T remember any of these things!?

Starbox--great observation! With all those long looks passing between M&L, there may be evasion happening on both sides, but the feeling is still there!

I am kind of doubting that there is a connection/alliance between Tess & Nicholas (who by the way is a great little villain). I think it possible that they might know of each other, and their powers are very different from M/M/I's, but I don't think they are operating on the same side. (Also liked Starbox's discussion on good/evil powers-I agree.) I think Tess might have an agenda all her own. Her upbringing with Edcedo caused her to have no human emotional connection, and her reaction to situations is similar to Edcedo's: force, whatever it takes whether it is power or mind delusions. All her actions on earth seem based in what's in it for her. What her connection was on Twilo to Nicholas/the conflict--I still have no clue.

I also think Tess was unnecessarily harsh to Courtney, accusing her of leading the skins to them when Courtney saved them all in Copper Summit. It seemed like Tess was really trying to be Mrs. Queen leader, throwing out her accusations and threats, but just coming across as the little imposter she is... Oops, getting carried away!

Chica

No time to check this now, GraceKel?

I hate to be the wet blanket, but I think the shed skins dissolving is just dependent upon how recently they were shed, and how dry they are. Did we notice that Nickolas kept his from shedding?

I assumed Tess was trying to cover Max's thoughts with Tessovisions. She's on our team now, it's just that Liz is equally important to the survival of everyone (well, maybe not the Skins), and Liz and Max are in love and love conquers all. So, Kyle and Tess are just going to have to do some falling in love of their own.

I hate to be the wet blanket, but I think the shed skins dissolving is just dependent upon how recently they were shed, and how dry they are. Did we notice that Nickolas kept his from shedding?

I assumed Tess was trying to cover Max's thoughts with Tessovisions. She's on our team now, it's just that Liz is equally important to the survival of everyone (well, maybe not the Skins), and Liz and Max are in love and love conquers all. So, Kyle and Tess are just going to have to do some falling in love of their own.

*********************************************
Shapeshifter -
You have a good point about the skin dissolving. also - Maria could have dropped the skin before it had a chance to dissolve.
As for Nicolas not shedding - I dont think he DOES shed. I think he is something different - maybe the smae "thing" Tess is. Thats why he survived the fire in the end & has different powers.

As for Tess covering Max's mindrape with "Tess O Visions" - I was wondering about this - so I rewatched the scene about a zillion times. When Tess mindwarps someone she concentrates REALLY hard. While Max was being mindraped she was thrashing around frantically trying to get away. I dont think she was mindwarping Max/Nikolas.
Here is a thought - if she was "connected" to the green rod somehow - could she have known that Maria/Nick were approaching it??? Maybe THATS why she was flailing about. Then she screams the moment the rod gets hit and we see time kind of fold in around her/suck her in and then the firestorm come from behind her and swallow up everyone. (Except Nicolas and Tess - who manage to live even though they got swallowed by fire).

Okay - but that still leaves the question of why Max had the visions that he had.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I hate to be the wet blanket, but I think the shed skins dissolving is just dependent upon how recently they were shed, and how dry they are. Did we notice that Nickolas kept his from shedding?

I assumed Tess was trying to cover Max's thoughts with Tessovisions. She's on our team now, it's just that Liz is equally important to the survival of everyone (well, maybe not the Skins), and Liz and Max are in love and love conquers all. So, Kyle and Tess are just going to have to do some falling in love of their own.

Extremely well put. I so agree about Kyle and Tess "going to have to do some falling in love of their own." Also, as for Tess working with Nicholas, she would have told him (all of them) where the Granolith was. There would be no need for keeping that from them, or going through all the skins have to learn its location. I think that point alone proves she's NOT working with them.

As to Tess - I do believe Tess is part of the podsquad and working on their behalf, BUT I think there is something about her alien past that will come out and shock everyone. She is the typical harsh ruling type so far, and if the arranged marriage is correct, anything is possible. She could have been responsible for genocide on the home planet - and Max may not have totally clean hands either! War is a messing business! Connection to Nick - could be the cruelty she dished out on the home planet. She is a bit of a B*%$h! At least she saved Maria!

Finally, WHY DIDN'T THE "Q&A" WITH COURTNEY HAPPEN EARLIER AND MORE OFTEN! Here was a being with in-depth knowledge of the home planet, the conflict, why the Royal 4 was sent to Earth and how the Skins fit in, and NOBODY asked her about it????????? There is a HUGE credibility issue here. There is Liz and Kyle researching on the computer, but nobody ask Courtney some basic questions!! Okay - sorry about the Rant - but I find that sooooooooo frustrating!!!! And - how come Nick was not peeling like everyone else? Obviously he is very powerful, but he did had a new husk being manufactured, so must need a new husk or time will run out! Ummmmmm ......!

Zero
I Shall Believe! (Though I may be frustrated!)

Anyone have ANY clue as to what this means???
Why werent the memories Max's?????????

I thought that Tess was trying to manipulate what Nicholas saw so he wouldn't find out the true location of the Granolith.

So.. here's the next question - will this close-to-death experience make Liz realize that she HAS to tell Max what really happened with Kyle? Or will Maria stick with the nosey-Maria image we all know and love and prod out the information from Liz and tell Max? OR.. will my little Dreamer heart continue to be broken until I can no longer stand it and I HAVE to travel to the Roswell set and tell Ron Moore EXACTLY what I think should happen!?

Oh.. sorry.. did I say that outloud!?

Can T do that? I know she can make someone see something (in fron tof them) that isn't there, but can she change what he sees in his head!?

We don't know now do we? We don't know what Tess can really do. I don't know if she knew what she was doing. But I am definately suspicious of tess and her motives. That whole scene was really weird!

We found out Kyle's mom left when he was six years old, same age as M/I/M, when they got out of the pods. Does this mean something?
His dad also mentioned how much Kyle has changed, that he was different. Remember Liz going through the same thing when she was healed.
Kyle tells Liz just before she diappears that Max has a job to do, you have a job to do, and when you complete your jobs everyone will make nice. I think the writers, maybe Mr Katims himself, want us to read between the lines here, Max and Liz need to take care of their own lives before they can be together. How long is this going to take? My Dreamer heart can't take it anymore. But with Kyle, Maria, and Alex she has a great team.
Max on the other hand might not trust anyone at this point. Maybe he will turn to the sheriff for help.

Did any of you think when Liz disappeared the sound was different form the others?

Te** asked Max if he had found Iz? How did Te** know Iz was missing? I also noticed Max looked at her funny, almost as if he was also wondering how she knew.

So are we to believe that Max is falling for Te** with all the touching going on, excuse me while I choke down my food. I think Max is on to Te**. He is only following that old saying. Keep your love onces close, but keep your enemies even closer. I see no reason for Max feeling something for Te**. She is mean, rude, and bossy. Everything that Liz is not. Ok Liz did appear to be rude to Iz when she wanted to comfort her, but why? The visions my friends. Liz must know that M/I/M will be able to see her visions if she is held by them.

I could not believe that Max didn't go check on his Mom with Iz, instead he was in the park, once again, with Te**. This I didn't like at all and didn't understand.
His Mom did notice that cute Liz Parker had not been coming around, I just loved the way Max avoided the subject.

My favorite line from Kyle was.
"He's Max, he will always know."
Nicholas said "Love the Hair, I hope you win." This was a contest on a website, am I right? Are the TPTB listening out there? I think so.

I need Liz ~Maria~
Evid

No way! NO way I can handle any more touching and *gag* feeling of Max to T or vice verse. I'm thinking Max just doesn't know WHAT to do. He feels a comfort with T (although, I don't think he should), but feelings? Naaah. Not our Max - he loves Liz. Always has.. always will!!

quote:His Mom did notice that cute Liz Parker had not been coming around, I just loved the way Max avoided the subject.

I LOVED that! Almost melted into my couch at the very moment!

quote:My favorite line from Kyle was.
"He's Max, he will always know."

Loved that too! Some inside scoop that Kyle has or just wise words from the Buddah!?

quote:Nickolus said "Love the Hair, I hope you win."

Very good stuff!

Evid yes the mention of Kyle when he was six years old hmmmmm--and did any else notice that the skins rode in on the same type bus that KYLE rode in on with EAGLE in the front---and remember that ROYAL CROWN sign in ASK NOT when Kyle came off the bus----could he turn out to be KHIVAR????(I know don't laugh but I am beginning to think that it seems like everyone is playing a role that was once played on TWILO.

In Summer of 47 didn't YVONNE WHITE disappear first, and maybe we didn't see it but maybe James Valenti Sr did too, and at the end we find out BETTY O was KILLED? Isn't this the order in which they disappeared in this eppy?

NOTE THE SIGN beside Liz and Maria when they turn around being watched through those funny visioned eyes TODAYS SPECIALS-----well it sounds like they are saying that both Liz and Maria are special in some way.

And the BUS says SPECIAL on it too.

When Max was on Liz's balcony was anyone else
hoping Max would have a flash of what really did not happen in EOTW eppy, boy they never have those intense visions when you need them do they....?

Well be back later.

*********************************************

Evid - I totally noticed this. I need to rewatch the whole episode and pay attention as to where Tess is at all times. I rewatched the ending so many times last night - but I have not rewatched the whole episode.

GarceKel - I was thinking the SAME thing when he was on the bacony. COME ON MAX.
Speaking of Max - I am getting a little frustrated by his character development these days. ****WARNING WARNING VENTING RANT TO FOLLOW***** I feel like he is just kind of slipping away - everybody is betraying him - all we ever hear from the skins is what a horrible leader/person he was. WE NEED TIC-TAC or a GOOD ALIEN to show up and give them some HOPE and direction here. I am all for widening the plot to include sci-fi storylines - but I am just feeling like they are throwing so much information at us - all from evil or suspect sources - and not expanding on any of it. It is starting to get frustrating and confusing - I dont know WHAT I am supposed to think anymore. Maybe this is REALLY good writing - and they are making the audience feel the way the pod squad feels (clueless) - but maybe its CRAPPY writing and they are NEVER going to explain all this. <sigh>

I like it that Liz is really staying strong and not running right back to Max. In the words of nicolas "Now THATS a soldier". She is willing to sacrifice her own happiness and still risk her life for Max. She is by far becomming the strongest, most trustworthy and solid character on the show.

As for Tess - I definately do not think she was behind the visions Max had. So where did they come from?? My husband said that he thought Max could have been like a lightening rod - through him Nikolas was able to see "inside" the other podsters as well. Which would mean that Liz may very well be a podster (or carry the essence).

Whatever was happening - it was making Tess extremely agitated.

**StarBox**
mythologist, (frustrated) dreamer

Very good stuff!

READ IT! I almost feel someone should start a thread to discuss those Diaries alone!! I found the Vilandra stuff particularly interesting.

btw, GREAT theories y'all, as always!!

Melodious

Very good stuff!

Just read the diary! So cool - but who writes this stuff? Is the silverhandprint site an "official" site, or just a fan's! Not much additional information, but it was interesting to read!

I must have skimmed over the Vilandra stuff - was there something new about that!

Evid - great insight about when Kyle's mom left! I added it to the timeline for the next thread.

I loved the scene where Max follows Liz, and says it is the aliens' fault, and she says not - that they have to stay strong! Great scene!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Unless.. there's some sort of link we don't know about yet and they didn't want to KILL the humans, they just wanted to vanish them for a bit? Hmmm...

Te** asked Max if he had found Iz? How did Te** know Iz was missing? I also noticed Max looked at her funny, almost as if he was also wondering how she knew.

I could not believe that Max didn't go check on his Mom with Iz, instead he was in the park, once again, with Te**. This I didn't like at all and didn't understand.

Hi, Evid. Glad someone else noticed the sound was different! At first I didn't even associate the sound with a disappearance at all. But, I haven't really gone back to check out sounds when Jim V, Kyle and Maria disappeared. I guess that whether a different sound means something or not is part of that eternal question: is this something relevant to the plot or is it just an inconsistency in the show's production?

I'm wondering if the scenes where T asks Max about Liz and Max not going home may just be byproducts of trying to cram alot of story into one hour (less actually with commercials). Maybe it was more important for us to see the T/Max conversation and the Is/Mom connection than something else?

This to me is one of the weaknesses of the second season: it seems like TPTB are trying to move the scifi along so fast that too many questions are left unanswered (like why didn't the podsters talk to Nacedo about their past when they had the chance, why haven't they tried to decipher the book (and why was a book left in the first place with their advanced technology?), why wasn't Courtney interrogated more, why was the mommogram so sketchy, etc.) Do you think that if the show gets a strong foothold in the ratings this year, the producers may feel a little more relaxed and begin to slow the pace some?

Wow, I'm really sounding like a whiner and I did not mean to. BTW, did anyone else notice the "No Whiners" sticker on the inside of Liz's locker in the Harvest eppy? This is so much like her and really fits her role so far this season! (Wish I had been more like her when I was 17!)

Ree

I must have skimmed over the Vilandra stuff - was there something new about that!

Not really anything new with the Vilandra stuff, it just restarted all my thoughts on "who the h**l is Vilandra". I think the possibility is still very open that it might be Tess. Although Nikolas supposedly recognized Iz as Vilandra (and he's apparently this almost omnipotent presence). I assume we're suppose to believe Iz is Vilandra because Nik recognizes her as such... but then if Vilandra is "one of them" why do they treat her in seemingly such a negative way (if it's Tess or Isabel)?

Although if Tess is Vilandra and is the King's sister.. and Max is indeed the King (and not Michael, but Whitaker didn't seem to be certain in her diary...??).... Max was making out with his sister in TLV. Could this have been possibly why Max found his attraction to Tess "upsetting" in 4SQUARE? I suppose I can understand the choice of words considering what Max was probably feeling (something seemingly beyond his control considering his relationship w/ Liz), but still, I find "upsetting" a little odd. "Upsetting" because he somehow KNEW on some level Tess was his sister and he kissed her (and was possibly feeling something for her) VERY NON-sibling? Ugh.

Once again, I feel someone should start a thread for the Vanessa Diary ... do you have to ask Mod's permission to start a thread? I'd start one myself but I'm not familiar with how the process works.

quote:I loved the scene where Max follows Liz, and says it is the aliens' fault, and she says not - that they have to stay strong! Great scene!

Zero

I loved that scene too, as well as the numerous glances between them. ::sigh:: This Dreamer is FAR from losing faith!

Melodious

This brings up another question - remember in AN we saw the same "creature" watching Max.
At the time, I assumed it was Courtney - but Courtney told Michael she was older - not in school.
So is there another skin?? Or could it have been Tess's eyes we were "seeing through"?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I don't think it was Tess, BUT you raise an excellent question!! Could it be Tic Tac, or another alien race that we are not aware of that is in town? Ummmmm - do we really know that the Skins see this way???? Ummmmmm.....

Zero
I Shall Believe!
If I don't post at the Dreamer thread, can I still be a Dreamer???

However that said there is support for many of the other ideas as well and we can only wonder which one they will go with.

I probably have posted this b4 but I think the song HERE WITH ME might have been chosen because of the opening lines......

I(Max) didn't hear you(Liz) leave, I wonder why am I still here.
But I don't want to move a thing, cuz it might change my MEMORY(afraid to move that he might lose the memory of her).

Of course the whole song is fitting but these beginning lines I thought might be a clue since so many have agreed how the music in SEASON 1 at least seemed to be very carefully chosen.

Qfanny they have a VW journal whats this shades of Liz?

I just wish that Biology teacher would ask for another saliva sample - what a riot that would be! I can't wait 'til she figures out what's going on (unless she already knows...)

quote:Although if Tess is Vilandra and is the King's sister.. and Max is indeed the King (and not Michael, but Whitaker didn't seem to be certain in her diary...??).... Max was making out with his sister in TLV. Could this have been possibly why Max found his attraction to Tess "upsetting" in 4SQUARE? I suppose I can understand the choice of words considering what Max was probably feeling (something seemingly beyond his control considering his relationship w/ Liz), but still, I find "upsetting" a little odd. "Upsetting" because he somehow KNEW on some level Tess was his sister and he kissed her (and was possibly feeling something for her) VERY NON-sibling? Ugh.
Melodious[/B]

Now, maybe I'm off the mark here -- but I think I remember Tess saying to someone that she tessavisioned Max into believing he was attracted to her in that way, and tessavisioned the kiss -- and it didn't really happen. Even if she didn't say it, that could be the case. So then -- it didn't REALLY happen, Tess just made Max (and Liz) think it did...

One last thought...on one of the original scripts for Destiny, in the scene where the mom-a-vision talkes to the podsters...originally she said, "My daughter, you were a great warrior." Tess's characteristics as we know them fit in more with Vilandra... She is untrustworthy AND a great warrior. Isabel is so loyal it is difficult to imagine her as being deceptive. She is also, in my humble opinion, the least 'warrior like' of the four of them. It just seems more plausible to me that Tess might be Vilandra, given what we know about Vilandra and what we know about Tess and Is.

Thanks for listening and please feel free to rip my ideas apart!

Metaphysicalgrl
{~}:} If you get confused, listen to the music play {~}:}

The name Vilandra - Villain-dra - implies a more selfish rather than selfless character.

Tess certainly has a different moral code than the other podsters, and many times she seems more like a spy in their midst than a true part of the team. I keep thinking she'll say, "Max, come over to the dark side!"

Has Nikolas ever seen Liz before? I believe he has seen the royal four, but he has not seen any of the human characters. When or if he sees Liz what kind of reaction will he have. Will he recognize her in some form, and could him seeing Liz put some foreshadowing in the "Liz is alien theory"

I still think Liz has some major role in this alien battle. She is so take charge and smart. She was the one after all that figured out the way to destroy the skins electron pulse field around the city.

anyone have any thoughts or answers?

I just rewatched WO and I did notice a noise when Kyle disappeared. Didn't notice it for the others.

Also, did anyone else hear Indian chanting right after Tess screamed during the "Firestarter" scene??? First it sounds like wooshing, then Indian chanting. It would be so cool if they could get into the Indian aspect again - they've neglected it so far this season.

Other things I noticed: How could Tess come out of the kitchen door in the Crashdown when Max had just said no one was back there - and she was just seconds ahead of Ida and Nicholas... In the Maria/Liz scene where they had to jump through the kitchen window-thingie - why wouldn't the swing door work for them? and why was Kyle just standing there by the front door watching his dad fight with the skin??? (Maybe that was just a production boo boo??)Where did Courtney go - or rather - how did Courtney in her weakened condition leave the bomb shelter and end up in Nicholas' custody... And when Maria is attacked by the blond lady in the bomb shelter - right before that Tess is off to the right of the screen. Then the lady jumps out at Maria, Maria screams for Tess and suddenly Tess is at the left of the screen already set to kick her in the back... Hmmm

Anybody else notice anything weird/inconsistent/puzzling??? Oh, BTW, somebody on one of these threads mentioned the doors to the UFO center seemed to be swinging when viewed from across the street. Upon looking for that, it looks like a blinking green light coming from inside the UFO center...

Ok, catch ya next time!

Anybody else notice anything weird/inconsistent/puzzling??? Oh, BTW, somebody on one of these threads mentioned the doors to the UFO center seemed to be swinging when viewed from across the street. Upon looking for that, it looks like a blinking green light coming from inside the UFO center...

Ok, catch ya next time!

Allright, here's two..both fairly annoying. At the end of the episode when Alex was complaining about his pancakes being ice cold...well the guy next to him was happily sipping his coffee and noone else in the diner seemed to have the same problem. Wouldn't their stuff be ice cold TOO?

Also, when Sheriff Valenti was fighting the skin guy...they knocked all of that stuff off of the counter anyway...

<<it must be really annoying to work hard on something and have all the little things that slip through the cracks torn apart by people with too much time on their hands like me!>>

{~}:}

So many things mentioned on this thread, I'll just reply to this post and try to answer them all! (I've also got a cat at my elbow, squint/smiling at me....)

Yes, Maria had better get a move on. She's got to know something's going on with Liz, from Max's chats with her; yet Liz wasn't and isn't "together" with Kyle. MARIA, IF YOU CAN HEAR ME...
Max is getting tiresome, isn't he? Not as animated as he was last season, even before EOTW. And Isabel has really rolled up in a ball, too. Maybe Is needs to have a talk with Alex; the one guy she knows she can count on. If she was happy to see her mom again, maybe Alex will be greeted warmly. (Fat chance. Anybody notice that it was Maria who was concerned about his disappearance? Isabel hardly seemed to notice.)

Really, what I'm expecting is that Max finds out the story with Kyle, Liz, and FutureMax; and feels manipulated and betrayed by Liz. Max, the control freak, may see this as the ultimate betrayal. Then: Liz wants Max, Max doesn't want Liz; a reversal of the current situation.

Tess at the Crashdown: where else would she expect to find everyone? They're always there. There is a back door, too, which she could power-open. Also, the Skin may have been holding the kitchen door shut when the gals were running from him.

Maria was holding a piece of Courtney's husk. Remember, she's got a cabinet full of lotions, moisturizers, etc. Perhaps all that goop was holding the piece together?

About the ball-of-fire thing. I think that was all Tess: both the human side AND the unknown alien side. We heard her say something about it coming from some alien part of her, just as we heard Michael and Isabel describing their attraction in 4SQ, etc. last year. I'd also remind you that she remembers vague impressions from Twilo; she was probably half-recognising Nikolas's previous abilities and character. That scream is the sound a mother Tess makes, when she is protecting her own, to misquote So47. The fireball may be a manifestation of what in humans is called "hysterical strength".

While I wouldn't describe Tess as warm and fuzzy, she does seem to have the grit and wit needed among the podsters. She took the initiative in quizzing Courtney, remember; something the guys were too gentlemanly (or dumb) to do. (She also got M&M to settle down, at the beginning of Harvest.) I still think we'll find that Tess and Liz have more in common than their taste in guys...

anyone have any thoughts or answers?

Yes; I like the "B team" better. Max, Michael, Isabel, and Tess all have their good points, and alien talents. I'd rather have Liz, Maria, Alex, and Kyle around, though. They're smarter, more resourceful, and way more friendly!

My first observation involves Liz and Maria. Remember when we get the wierd alien view of them and they decide to go back to the Crashdown. Notice that they weren't attacked by this alien, whereas all other encounters with aliens, aka the skins, they were. I think this was an indication that there were more aliens there than just the skins and the podsquad.

Also note that when Liz picked up the skin it dissolved as it did with Max, and the other podsters. Liz was also the one who saw it laying on the ground.

When Tess made them see a wall you can see a picture next to the mirror that Nicholas is looking in. That picture has two aliens grouped together in the background and one prominent in the foreground. Could this be an indication to the correct number of aliens that survived the crashed. Don't forget that in SO47 we see ONE alien who gets "hit" by the truck and two aliens later with the pods. I think this is further evidence to support that theory.

The sound that you hear when Liz disappears is the same sound we hear when the aliens use their powers and have been hearing lately whenever Max and Liz connect. It is also different than when the other three disappear. We also don't see her disappear. At about the same time that she disappears, we see Max getting mind raped by Nick. In those visions are scenes of a road, if you look at the scenery and compare it to the scenery in the driving scenes with the humans, they are on the same road. Also, Max has visions of Liz, Isabel, Michael, the map with the box symbol underlined by Michael's shadow, the 4 pod chamber symbol and the pod chamber location. There were no visions of Tess which I found very interesting.

In that same scene when Tess starts her mind warp, she suddenly opens her eyes and shreaks like an eagle then, as she puts it, losses control and taps into something completely different (as she later tells Max). If Liz is indeed an alien but doesn't know it yet, could she have been using Tess to channel herself and her powers to protect Max and the others? This could be one way for her not to remember using her powers since she probably thinks she just disappeared like the rest of the humans.

Also, when they are showing Maria and Liz hugging the words to the song playing are:

I'm in the sky tonight
There I can keep by your side

Lends a bit of credence to my previous eagle screech observation I think.

So what do you think of my latest ponderings? Sorry I haven't posted in a while, I'll try to post when I can!

Rocklowery, over and out.

I had mentioned on an earlier post the sound of the zip that was heard in EOTW when PM kisses Liz. I now don't think it means anything. They seem to be using the zip whenever someone is having a vision or Tess is doing her voo doo. I guess it is to help us figure "the vision you are about to see is not real.."

I shouted Ah Ha! when Liz picked up the skin and it dissolved (an alien tip), and then felt puzzlement when she disappeared (human again). I am now wondering if there is any clue in these occurrences or if the writers know we are waiting for the next clue so threw us one of each.

I know I keep harping on Tess's Edcedo connection, but did anyone notice that when the 3 rushed up to Iz in the school and the skins started to come from all directions, she looks around and has this funny little reptile movement, like a turtle (is that a reptile?!) poking its head up to look around. Edcedo had the very same movement in TLV when he is cleaning up the broken statue and Max rings the door. I don't think she is a shapeshifter, in fact I do think she is from M/M/I's planet, but I think more and more she is operating on her own agenda. When she talks to Max in the park and sounds so puzzled where the fire came from, it doesn't ring true. I think it is a power she is hiding. She takes a more submissive role around Max but is very harsh and mean around others. (End of the Tess rant..)

Now a question: was Ida's question: how can those brats be from Seattle? I don't get it. It's probably staring me in the face, but what does that mean?

Chica

Nick had to have seen Liz while she was sitting in his living room, though he seemed focused on Iz. But she was staying in his house, so they had to cross paths. I personally do think Iz is Vilandra; however, I do NOT believe that history has to repeat itself. Just like Max's alien predecesor does not sound too appealing, Iz's probably wasn't either. For whatever reason, the home planet sent their essences without memories - maybe to give them a second chance to do it right and NOT make the same mistakes (Run, Lola, Run) that they made on the home planet. I guess time will tell.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

What she said was "WHY can't those brats be from Seattle?" - because (being from Seattle) it is very moist, and would be less drying on the "skins." Ida was complaining on the dry air in Roswell. Hope that clears that one question up?

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I strongly suspect that was foreshadowing. Also another exchange soon after -- Max to Liz: "We're not all the same, you know." Liz: "Yeah, I've known that for a really long time"

I was over at a Smash Mouth site looking for lyrics to post on the Dreamer thread, and I came across Then The Morning Comes. This was played on LN when Michael was watching Kyle's friend scratch. GraceKel mentioned that the lyrics have a lot of clues, and I agree with her. We also keep coming back to the movie Run Lola Run. Keep this in mind as you read these lyrics.

Then The Morning Comes
Smash Mouth

Paint the town take a bow
Thank every body you're gonna do it again
You are the few the proud
You are the antibody, mind, soul and Zen
And the world's a stage
And the world's a faze and the end is near
So push rewind just in time
Thank anybody you're gonna do it again
The way that you walk
It's just the way that you talk like it ain't no thing
And every single day is just a fling
Then the morning comes
Take your knocks shake them off
Duck everybody you're gonna take them again
You are your foe, your friend
You are the paparazzi
You are the tragedian
And the world's a craze
And the world's a faze and the end is near
So push rewind just in time
Thank anybody you're gonna do it again
Chorus
And when it comes it moves so slow
Kind of like it's saying "I told you so"
Looking back before she goes
Tomorrow's gonna hurt
And the world's a stage
And the world's a faze and the end is near
So push rewind just in time
Thank anybody

Sounds alot like Run Lola Run to me what do you think? I also noticed Antibody, Mind, Soul and Zen.
Zen- is a Japanese Buddhist sect that teaches self-disciplane, meditation, and attainment of enlightenment through direct intuitive insight. Does this sound like Kyle to anyone? GraceKel, "It's always the drummer."

Evid

I'm so glad that most of you liked this episode. I loved it!! I have a little bit of a different theory on the firestarter T thing. The mom-o-gram said that they would know their enemies by the evil within. I don't know but somebody throwing flames like they are straight from hell kinda seems evil to me!!! Perhaps I am not the biggest Tess fan OK, but I do think that it is strange.

I love your ideas as usual!!

I just don't like coincidences.

This time we got to see the whole thing. Last season I saw only part of it. As you say, it fits.

from The Morning After

I just don't like coincidences.

Yeah, and Kyle and Sheriff V just happened to be fishing. But shouldn't all this stuff be on the Loose Ends thread? Or the General Discussion thread? Aren't we sort've threading away from Liz's Importance?

Oh, and I'm still thinking of her as a prototype of Liz, but no concrete ideas on just how.

Rocklowery--good point about another kind of alien in town---hmmmm--and in AN when Max is looking for this presence he feels we see the NATIVE AMERICAN actor sorry his name escapes me with an OPEN BOOK---I of course was hoping it was GRANDMA CLAUDIA's book. So could this be this third race?

EVID--incredible about SMASHMOUTH song never thought of that one b4.

NEMO--that line,"WE ARE NOT ALL THE SAME YOU KNOW" from Max has always stuck with me, of course I always thought it would be MICHAEL that was the different one possible along with TESS but I am not sure a few changes haven't been made in the story so.....

SHAPESHIFTER I guess the possibilities could be endless with this time shifting and other dimensions, you are right.

STARBOX that symbol you posted about with the BLACK MOON--I always thought this was the INFERIOR SATURN RINGS---where TESS comes from and quite frankly I thought Michael possibly as well since this is the sign he burned into the lawn, which I felt strongly he alone might have been connected with not necessarily Isabel.

~Berkie

First-I think that Isabel is Vilandra for sure. Nick says something about her always choosing jewels over something else, I forgot. But Isabel is always worried about her appearance.

Second-Courtney's skin was inside the house where is could have possibly been kept moist. Where as all the other skins have been found outside. So I don't think that is conclusive evidence of Liz's alienism.

Third-I find it very interesting they way the humans did disapear. How strange for Liz to go first and Maria last. But I have noticed and mentioned before that Maria has been playing a bigger part in helping out w/the podsters. She is always at these meetings that LIz never goes to.

Fourth-I agree w/what other have said about TEss mind warp. I think possibly the dimensions thing and her mind warp became intermingled.

Fifth-I think since courtney said that nick must have come up w/a dimension thing on earth, then he probably had a husk waiting for him on another dimension and that is why he didn't peal.

Lastly-Could the other aliens watching LIz & Maria possibly Khivar himself. He may be a prominent person to the podsters so he can't let himself be shown yet. By the way where is Grant.

i noticed it too that when liz found and picked up the skin, it turned to dust, where as when maria picked it up, it didn't. as w/ all the other podsters, it disappeared. hmmm

i would have thought that liz would have been the last one to disappear and not maria. maybe TPTB are trying to confuse us into maybe hinting that maria could be? maybe they want to put us through a loop. and maria's reply that she needs to spend more time w/ her mom and keep in touch w/ grandma... maybe some insight on who her father is.

when liz, kyle, and maria disappeared, there was that static noise. the only difference that i got was that liz soundly a lot more like a transiter like a warped voice trying to come through. maria and kyle had just the static.

tess definitely is coming out to be a warrior type, rather than the "bride". let's just suppose that tess is villandra. daughter and warrior, sister to the king, betrayer of her race... we really don't know tess ulterior motive. something is just not right. with the title of "bride", momogram did not give any other powerful characteristics other than "bride", maybe iz? i still have to analyze that.

when nik was "mind raping" max, what's w/ the moving scenery? he might as well be that in tune w/ liz that he saw what she saw before she disappeared. or nik was taking the most recent memories, that could be the short-cut road that max told kyle to take. i thought it was great that liz was the next image that we see in the 1st rape... despite what he saw, he still loves liz.

ok, when we see that scene where we see the symbols, there are those 4 pod-like sacs w/ the dots in the middle and on the end, you see almost like a 5 and 6 sac forming. ok, bear w/ me, on top of the royal four being sent, maybe it was planned to also send the brain/advisor (liz) and maybe another podster. but maybe for whatever reason, the 5, 6 podster wasn't send w/ them or will be sent on a later time. 5 could be the advisor and 6 could possibly be sent to make sure that the podsters don't let history repeat itself... or could be another warrior.

what do think?

oh, yeah, now i remember. tess has been acting weird. i think that tess was a skin in her former like and that to keep the peace on the planet, king max marries tess, whose from the skin race. a plant, probably planned by kivar. now, we learn that villandra betrays max for the skins and mike might be siding w/ the skins but remains loyal to king max. the planted bride, could be trying to persuade king max to make the wrong decisions, that would outrage the subjects, and planted spies could try to rouse the subjects into a riot. tess probably has an agenda. she could be in kahoots w/ nik. it seems that nik was the only one that wasn't shedding. could it be that nik was of the same race as king max, but defected to the other side for more power? he sides w/ kivar, proves his worth and becomes the second hand? or it could be that maybe nik and liz were both advisors, both smart. but liz was getting more of the attention, nik was jealous that she was being recognized for her ingenuity that he, too, is wise and maybe the skin people would be more appreciative of this wisdom, thus, turning to the dark side. it's about the only explanation that i can think of why he was the only one that wasn't shedding. but w/ the husk that iz saw in the harvest, it could be that when nik turned to the other side, he had to prove his worth and did some genetic altering that he becomes skin-like, maybe?

when max is mind raped and you see the constellation, it's V shaped. v for villandra? or could it be an actual pointer( meaning pointing down on the earth as to where the key is held). we also see the granolith... shapped like a V. in eotw, max sticks the crystal somewhere on the base of the granolith. could it be that the crystal is there all along. that the trusted advisor, liz, has the genetic make-up from the home planet, that when she would touch it, it would release the crystal? what i mean is that maybe liz's "fingerprints" is the key or the security clearance to get the key. maria has seen the granolith and the podsters, it's just alex and liz that has not seen it yet.

what do you think?

Many say Liz is a special human, possibily alien because of the flashes, which I believe, but what I'm wondering is why she didn't have the flashes all the time. Remember the first time she saw flashes was when Max reversed the connection so that Liz could see his soul. She didn't have another flash (not even with the first kiss) until "Blind Date," when Max kissed her while he was drunk. And why did Max sober up after kissing Liz?? Could their be some truth to the balance theory? Being drunk is definitely being off balance, and the kiss restored his balance. After that night Liz began to have flashes almost everytime she and Max kissed. In Sexual Healing she was getting glowing hickey's and rashes, and now she gets visions just with the touch of Max's hand. Did Nasedo's return in "Blind Date" awaken something in Liz? Remember, the only time Max has seen flashes was when he healed Liz and in Sexual Healing. All the other times they kissed and flashes where involved, Max didn't see anything. He could feel the connection, but he didn't see flashes. I definitely think Liz is a much bigger part of this whole "destiny" equation than any of them (the pod squad & humans) think. Even when Max was in 3rd grade he was drawn to her. It has to mean something more. The Royal Four aren't just the Royal "Four" anymore. I bet that changed the minute they were cloned and placed on earth with humans.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

RIGHT! I thought it was Courtney at first too, but then.. we find out that Courtney's supposedly a "Mikey G" stalker, why would she be watching Max? So.. there must have been someone else there? The weird blow torch guy? Maybe he shapeshifted from someone else? Or.. another Skin in Roswell? Or.. T ???

Some of you have mentioned how the Skin didn't disintegrate in Maria's hand. When was that? I remember some episode where Maria picked up the Skin, but she threw it so quickly since she was all freaked out. Maybe she just simply didn't hold onto it long enough? I'm COMPLETELY up for it being the power of Liz that helped the disintegration, but I don't want to get my hopes up based on something that isn't true - help?

I'm so glad that most of you liked this episode. I loved it!! I have a little bit of a different theory on the firestarter T thing. The mom-o-gram said that they would know their enemies by the evil within. I don't know but somebody throwing flames like they are straight from hell kinda seems evil to me!!! Perhaps I am not the biggest Tess fan OK, but I do think that it is strange.

I love your ideas as usual!!

I agree! Seems like an INSTANT sign to me!

I think so too! I also think that when Courtney was talking about "all the powers" that Nick has.. one of them may be a "nine lives" type effect (like a cat). Maybe he's Kvar and can "die" and come back several times.. which would explain the little boy at the end of WO!

GraceKel - I sent you a PM about the symbol :-)

Okay - I just rewatched WO (again) and have some comments:

I did hear the chanting sound when Tess did her firestarter bit.

Liz's dissapearance was definately different.
And you do hear what sounds like radio interference before she dissapears.

When Max is mind-raped - he is DEFINATELY seeing through Liz's eyes. In fact - when L/M/K are in the car you can see Liz looking out the windows to the side - NOT looking straight ahead at Kyle/Maria.
I think this has HUGE implications for Liz mythology. I mean - how connected are they????? What is the source/implication of that connection? I showed it to my husband (a pretty new roswell watcher) today and his immediate comment was "So - did the split the king's essence between the two of them??"
I dont know - but this coupled with the fact that you hear what sounds like radio interference right before Liz dissapears is very suspicious. Is Max "picking up" a signal from Liz somehow?
Max sees Liz - the highway through Liz's eyes - Michael's vision. Isabel, the FS symbol, the "V" formation and the granolith. NO TESS at all.

It really looks like Nicolas has the Black Moon symbol on the side of his sunglasses. I have tried and tried to pause my VCR but I get a fuzzy picture when I do. You can see it really well in the scene where he interrogates Courtney.

Tess's "firestarter" thing. I dont think it was intentional and I dont think it was goming from within HER. She could have been a channel. The more I watch it - the more it seems directly linked to the destruction of the alien power source.
What happens when time "unfolds?". Courtney says that the EA made it so that they were - in a sense - existing in multiple dimensions at the same time. Like if you took a piece of paper and folded it in on itself accordian style.
Could the fire have been the natural result of the time "unfolding" itself and switching back to one dimension? Are the skins really "gone" now (we know Nicolas is not gone) - or did they simply disappear from that dimension of time? My gut feeling is still that Tess has a link to Nicolas/CW/Courtney that runs deep. She ALWAYS made sure she was present and "took charge" of Courtney's "interrogation" - why??? Maybe to make sure that Courtney did not give any secrets away.
Also - she blamed Courtney TWICE for bringing the skins to town - both times claiming that Courtney and Nicolas were working together. Once in the Crashdown and again right when they entered the school. Why is she so eager to turn everyone against Courtney - who was obviously loyal to them to the point of killing herself before she betrayed them.
Did Tess HONESTLY think that Courtney and Nicolas were this powerful evil team working together??? If not - WHY would she keep making those accusations???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Also, in the EOTW where Max tells Liz that she is not letting herself change, there has been discussion as to what that means and whether he is saying that some continued metamorphosis must take place. The context to me (and I admit to seeing things far more simply then all of you with the elaborate possibilities you come up with) merely is that as he, Max, must change and fall out of love with Liz, she also must change and let him go. Simplistic, I know.

I guess I'm feeling a little uncertain as to where the writers are taking us. While I still LOVE this show, it is good but very different from last season, and right now the writers just seem to be throwing us from 1 threat to another with only a general continuity tying the story together. I haven't watched all that much scifi. Do any of you know history on J Katims, R Moore and the writing staff--are they known for attention to the details or are we just snaring a larger audience with this threat of the week storyline?

Also, I do check the spoilers on the Crashline site, and there they mention who wrote the episode and who directed. But once it is off the spoilers, I can't find that information. Do any of you know where this information is for past episodes? I can't find it under episodes, unless I'm not looking in the right place.

Chica

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I also noticed that when M/M/I/T are tied up and Nicholas is walking around taunting them, he never talks to or about Tess. As he talks to Max at the beginning of that scene and then starts to walk back toward Iz, the frantic expression on Tess's face seems to be one of "No, don't recognize me." I know it's just my basic Tess distrust showing, but believe me, she is BAD!

Chica

Chica--I agree with you about missing the dual conversations between Maria and Liz and Michael and Max. I thought those were very clever.

Shapeshifter--I thought your idea about Yvone White being taken by aliens (maybe she had something important in her possession)was a great one. Maybe she befriended them (after getting over her initial fear) and was given the duty of Granilith protector (if she is GC).

Stephstephsteph--the woman that attacked Maria in the UFO Museum was the same woman(skin) who patted the tour guide on the face when the skins got off the tour bus.

Liz as an --I think it is pretty impossible as I read on a doctors account of what they would have to explain away--cheek sample coming up normal in Pilot comes to mind. I do think that because the Pod Squad are genetically advanced humans, it is possible for humans to have advanced powers.

Maybe when Max healed Liz this helped advance her powers, without either of them realizing it. Also, during SH a lot of connecting, etc. happens. She said in the first scene (her shower fantasy) that something was changing inside of her. Then she gets the visions, etc.

Or, maybe because she is extremely intelligent she just begins to tap into the power within all of us. How many people on this message board have experienced de ja vu? I know I have and tons of psychic things have happened in our world. I wish the writers would put that into the story line. It makes sense that some humans have extra sensory gifts.

What do you think?

I know of some of Jason Katims's work from the defunct teen drama 'My So Called Life', which I was a big fan of. Katims is also the mind behind "Pilot", one of Roswell's finest hours. From what I know of his history, his experience is mainly in writing for character dramas, while Ron Moore's worked largely with intensely sci-fi ventures such as 'Star Trek'.

Keep in mind, though, that most of a season's episodes are not written by Katims and Co., but rather a plethora of separate writers.

The lack of continuity within the storylines is certainly becoming a large problem this season. I think some of the trouble lies with the fact that each writer is adhering to what they believe Roswell should be when penning episode scripts, rather than trying to add layers and depth to Roswell's original vision. What's far more disturbing is that Katims and Co. are allowing it.

What do you think?

[/B]

Well - our "Trojan Horse" theory is that the alien essence of the crucial "fifth element" was hidden and disguised COMPLETELY as a human.
Unlike the podsters - who are hybrids with their essence MIXED with human DNA - Liz would be 100% a human (physically) - but with an alien "essence" hidden inside. Since the
alien's "powers" are simply evolved human abilities - when the "essence" inside of Liz was "awakened" - she too would be able to tap into those abilities.

I do believe that there is much more to Liz than even she suspects. The cheek sample and her disappearimg dont bother me a bit - they just reinforce the idea that she is physically a human. What is her "essence" though?? Why did Max "recognize" it???
She CAN be 100% physically human and STILL be linked to Twilo and Max through a very deep connection.
If you look at cloning - in cloning you dont "mix" DNA - you REPLACE it. If Liz carries the essence of Max's love - it doesnt have to make her a hybrid. I am assuming that what they call "essence" is what we would call the "soul".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

First-I think that Isabel is Vilandra for sure. Nick says something about her always choosing jewels over something else, I forgot. But Isabel is always worried about her appearance.

Second-Courtney's skin was inside the house where is could have possibly been kept moist. Where as all the other skins have been found outside. So I don't think that is conclusive evidence of Liz's alienism.

Third-I find it very interesting they way the humans did disapear. How strange for Liz to go first and Maria last. But I have noticed and mentioned before that Maria has been playing a bigger part in helping out w/the podsters. She is always at these meetings that LIz never goes to.

Fourth-I agree w/what other have said about TEss mind warp. I think possibly the dimensions thing and her mind warp became intermingled.

Fifth-I think since courtney said that nick must have come up w/a dimension thing on earth, then he probably had a husk waiting for him on another dimension and that is why he didn't peal.

Lastly-Could the other aliens watching LIz & Maria possibly Khivar himself. He may be a prominent person to the podsters so he can't let himself be shown yet. By the way where is Grant.

I wanted to agree with your conclusions, and comment (of course! )

1. I too think Iz is Vilandra! She is always picking "jewels over studies" - but that does NOT mean that she is destined to repeat history. We know nothing about the aliens previous lives and personal interactions. This is where the nurture vs. nature arguments come into play! Though Iz has the "essence" of Vilandra, she is Isabel Evans, raised on Earth with Human DNA, in a very stable and loving family, surrounded by a incredible group of friends! No matter what went on on Twilo, her current life should have the strongest and ultimately the decisive effect on future decisions. We know from FM that Max, Iz and Mike were still together in 2014 as a fighting unit - though they had failed due to the lack of Tess' added powers to the unit. The bond there is too strong. Why is this important to Liz - well regardless of whether Liz is alien or human, the nurture vs. nature ultimately affects both her and Max and the decisions they will make in the future. I also think the nurture vs. nature issue is directly relevant to Tess and how she fits into the group!

2. I also agree the the moisture content could affect the disintegration of a skin. Did the skin Mikey G peeled off Courtney's back disintegrate in his hand??

3. I still think the disappearances were based on age. As I mentioned before, Valenti was the oldest - by a lot, explaining his much earlier disappearance, then Liz, Kyle and Maria are probably born close together, and if born in the order of disappearance, then it would explain the close succession of their disappearance - does that make sense?

4. I also think that the destruction of the dimension shifter (green rod) caused the enhancement of Tess' mind warp. Plus, her mind warps are normally illusions, BUT here we are to believe the illusion of fire became real destroying the Skins - that could only have occured with outside help - I believe. Another option - I have said I think a third type of alien was running around town (the one watching Liz and Maria) - what if that alien "helped" Tess without anyone's knowledge. I'm actually thinking back to the RH Books where the Milton-equivalent helps the podsters escape Valenti at the Mall - and the podsters discover the Milton-equivalent is an alien. Sorry if you haven't read the books and this doesn't make sense! I still think there is another alien (e.g., Tic Tac - WHERE ARE YOU??) or two out there watching over Liz and the podsters. How convenient that Liz ended up getting that "opportunity" to work with Whitaker - not for the Skins, but it ended up being very convenient from the podsters' perspective, too! How did that opportunity arise??? And who knew that Liz would be the perfect person to take advantage of that position???

5. I don't think he had another husk, but he may have been able to protect himself from the fire storm somehow by manipulating dimensions, but ... if he has those types of powers on Earth, why not use them to get the podsters.

I will be interested to see if Kivar comes to Earth, but I doubt he is here yet. That would be season 3 I think?

Grant must have disappeared??? Brody, too???? So, who did Iz try to call when her mom disappeared????

BTW - WELCOME to Newbies!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero - I think she dialed 9-1-1. It looked like only three digits...

Ree99

Also, why was T so quick to "pull the plug". You'd think she'd have known how short Courtney's life was as is anyway and why not try and get all the answers out of her as soon as possible.

You know what I would have LOVED to see is Liz asking Courtney all about Max on Planet Twilo - and his role.. what he was like.. what T and him were like (just to see exactly how similar the Mom'o'gram's story was to Courtney's version).. hmm... oh well

The sound made when Liz disappeared, the timing of when she disappeared and the visions Nick got from Max.

Could it be, considering the conversation going on in the car before Liz disappears, that Liz goes on her own and the visions Nick sees is Liz coming back to help Max and the others? Could it be that she was the source of the "fire"? Remember that T*** says "What happened?" right afterwards. She told Max that she was trying a "mindwarp" and she didn't know what happened after that. Could it have been Liz intervening?

Just a thought.

I think that the species was proported to be out of Northern Europe but I have been searching the internet and can not find anything.

If anyone remembers the thread or can help me out here it would be appreciated.

This thread is a Mecca of ideas for Fanfic writers. All the theories are well thought out and believable (Hint to TPTB.)

I still what Liz to be human, but possibly a special human ultilizing more of her brain.

So if anyone remembers the thread or can point me in the right direction, I would appreciate it.

Syndee

When Courtney was telling Max that he needed to look out for Nick's memory stealing power. I suddenly wondered if Max had the same power. Think about Kyle's conversations with Liz. On Riverdog Kyle and Liz are in the janitors closet, and Kyle tells Liz "this brings back memories." Liz has a confused look on her face, she has no idea what he is talking about. He goes on to tell her, "our first kiss, last day of school, before summer break." This happened again on EOTW. When Liz comes out in a towel, Kyle tells Liz, once again, "this brings back memories", Liz says "Kyle we never slept together," Kyle says, "no, I mean last summer at the Y." Liz once again does not remember. Would Max intentionally still Liz's memories of Kyle? Maybe he did this, and who knows what else, unconsciously.
We all know how Max feels about Kyle. On the Pilot, the first thing he asked Liz, in the band room was, "are you dating the sheriffs son?" Kyle was talking to Max like they were friends. He said "hey Max," and "see you Max," Max said nothing to Kyle. I don't like thinking that Max would do this to Liz but the clues are there. I think Max wanted Liz in his life so badly, he changed her with out realizing what he was doing. He had no control over his powers. I would not like to be Max if Liz ever finds out that he did this, looks like another way for the writers to break up Max and Liz, again. I don't think us Dreamers could take another break up. Just how far will Max go to have Liz back in his life? I'm almost afraid to ask.

Evid

Chica
No, it's "Why couldn't those brats..." Seattle is cold and wet, while New Mexico is hot and dry. She was complaining about the heat and dryness, and wishing that she was hunting them down somewhere with a "better" climate. Seattle comes to mind.

Tess really hasn't been mean to the other podsters, has she? She was helping Michael with target practice, and she called the meeting to order for Max at the begining of Harvest. Isabel was nasty to her, when she came back with info about CW, and Nikolas left. She may not have the social skills the others do, but she hasn't been aggressive toward them. Put Maria in similar situations, and think what would happen.

I really don't think that kid was supposed to be Nikolas. It was just someone to startle Tess when he bumped into her.
Of course, they may well have re-used the same actor, for added creepiness.

Going along with the above a bit, I have a REALLY nutso theory...

Many of us believe that Max's marriage to his "young bride" was possibly an arranged one to unite two warring factions (Podians/Skins?). The "young bride" possibly being from this Skin faction on Twilo. I was wondering if this "young bride" might have had a connection to Khivar?? Khivar and the "young bride" possibly being siblings?

Khivar *storms the castle* on Wedding Day and stops this marriage from taking place (hence, this is why some have speculated "the Bride" is called "the Bride" and not "wife", "Queen", etc. I also found it interesting that in CW's diary, the King's mother is referred to as "the Queen"... and no mention of "the bride" as such). Not only stopping the Wedding but also catching *everyone* completely off guard. Khivar obviously very strongly opposed to the marriage.

1 - Khivar keeps his/her sister from marrying a Podian
or
2 - Keeps his/her sister from marrying "the King" (hence this would have made her the Queen)

Khivar's sister wouldn't have allowed him/her the power s/he probably wanted? Which is possibly a reason Khivar stopped the wedding (and very well killed his/her own sister).

Liz could quite possibly still be the "young bride" going along with the above "Trojan Horse" theory. This would make Liz Khivar's sister and possibly the reason why "the Queen" took such drastic precautions in protecting her. Liz as the YB, indistinguishable even for alien senses (inc. Nikolas'). Perhaps it's ONLY Khivar that can recognize Liz for what she truly is besides Max (who -going along with this theory- was truly in love with his "young bride"...I'm a Dreamer, sue me!), although Max only remembers reminiscent *feelings*. He doesn't realize something in Liz existed in the past life, he just knows he loves her and always has.

In another extreme method of protecting the YB, Tess is a decoy to hide the YB further. As a decoy, has YB memories in her (but no actual essence). Although if I was going to get even crazier... what if Khivar somehow managed to get a hold of Tess (just after hatching and in Edsedo's [who I feel is still of questionable alliance] care). Khivar *did something* to Tess, possibly making her more powerful than the other podsters (by putting a little bit of his/her own essence in Tess??) and, when the time came, have her betray them at his command. Tess doesn't realize she's different from the rest nor that she's a decoy for the YB (which is why she hasn't revealed the location of the Granilith to Nikolas/the Skins yet and she basically killed *her own* in WO... although it seems Nik is capable of this via CW's diary). So she'd have *memories* of King Max loving her (so she might not have been lying in ASK NOT), but no actual YB essence, the only (fractional) alien essence in her is Khivar's. If Edsedo is Podian, I could believe this could have totally slipped past his attention, considering he was *diddling* a Skin and had no clue. In theory, Tess is a bomb basically and Khivar has his finger on the detonator.

If Tess has a bit of Khivar essence in her, than this could be why Nikolas looked at her the way he did in WO? He recognizes (or knows about, maybe the ONLY Skin that knows about) that piece of Khivar in the decoy YB? They don't know where the *real* YB is (Whitaker might have suspected in her diary something *different* about Liz, but never actually came to any answer / conclusion before Iz killed her)?

This would also possibly throw a bone out to the Mindwarpers... If Tess has a little Khivar in her and Isabel is Vilandra... Vilandra and Khivar were *lovers*... Oh my!

Perhaps, if Tess hadn't been (possibly) *tainted* by Khivar, her hybrid body would have eventually become the vessal of the YB essence? However, because Tess is now *damaged* because of Khivar (or his/her essence), her body can no longer be used. Liz, the human young bride, is *automatically* changing?

This theory would have Tess AND Liz both connected to Khivar in different ways (which could still be dangerous, not only because of the Tess/Khivar connection in my theory... but that Liz could possibly have recognition of her alien sibling as the [possible] change in her manifests?). Also both are used simply as vessals to a certain extent by the Podians (and Tess by a Skin). Except it will be Liz that will end up with "the King" because she's the only one currently with and that can carry the YB essence; Tess' body can't be used anymore.

Like I said, crazy (and long)!

Melodious

Many of us believe that Max's marriage to his "young bride" was possibly an arranged one to unite two warring factions (Podians/Skins?). The "young bride" possibly being from this Skin faction on Twilo. I was wondering if this "young bride" might have had a connection to Khivar?? Khivar and the "young bride" possibly being siblings?

Khivar *storms the castle* on Wedding Day and stops this marriage from taking place (hence, this is why some have speculated "the Bride" is called "the Bride" and not "wife", "Queen", etc. I also found it interesting that in CW's diary, the King's mother is referred to as "the Queen"... and no mention of "the bride" as such). Not only stopping the Wedding but also catching *everyone* completely off guard. Khivar obviously very strongly opposed to the marriage.

OK, I'll buy that K' var and Bride may have been siblings. Then maybe all Villandra did was get him (and a few friends) wedding invitations? Seems harmless enough.

I still wonder if the "young bride" was a second wife for King Max, whose beloved first wife (and Queen) had died somehow. If reincarnation for Twilonians is possible (I'm thinking about Babylon 5), perhaps the soul of the Queen has gotten herself reincarnated somewhere close to Max, across the breadth of space itself.

Nahhh. Too romantic.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I thought it was the top she wore in Sexual Healing.

I was sure that someone (Nemo?) posted another image in here, the one on the cave wall with the stones set over certain petroglyphs. Does anyone know the one I mean?

OK, so if you know the one I mean, take a look at it. Now, look above. See the line of symbols above the linked boxes with dots in them? Starts of with a swirl, a figure 8, a back to front L .... OK?

Now look at the Cave Wall map (Sorry I can't seem to get it to appear here.) The swirl is missing from the Cave wall image!

Things that make you go Hmmmmmmm.

WR

I immediately thought of TicTac, at this point. Remember this mysterious presence has observed Max, Michael and now Liz and Maria, without attacking any of them, when being invisible would have been a great opportunity for it. I certainly saw it as a protective force.

Back to the symbols. That line of Boxes with the dots in. There is a fifth box on the end, kind of triangular, also with a dot in.

Now it already seems to have many uses, and the Skins sure want their hands on it, but could this triangle represent the Granolith? It was behind the Pods. OK, so if that is a possibility, would it not be feasible that the Granolith could also have doubled as a Pod?

Just considering angles.

WR

You all amaze me with your wonderful thoughts and ideas!

Here are some thoughts & observations I had:

I'm thinking the skins jumped ship to another time dimension because there wasn't enough skin snow in the air for it to have been all of them. Think about how MUCH skin snow was flying around when CW was killed. If all those skins were killed it would have been like a blizzard.

Is it the dry Roswell air or the heat that bothers the skins and makes them shed? I remember Nicholas mentionind something to Ida about getting her to a moisture chamber. Could weather conditions be effecting them like the sweat did Necedo - effecting their balance.

All I could think of when I saw that fire around Tess was the movie Firestarter that Drew Barrymore was in years ago. I'm really not sure what to make of it. Does this mean that Tess is one of the elements after all - that being fire?

This bugged me and I know it belongs more on a bloopers thread but.. The rearview mirror in Maria's car was missing. How convenient, this way Kyle and Maria could't see Liz disapear.

When Max and Michael are on Liz's balcony with the telescpoe after Michael says she wanted to show me how the husk fit, I see smoke. Where is this coming from and why is it there? Please tell me I'm not crazy and that somebody else sees it.

I kept hearing River Dogs voice saying - water, something in common with all of us. Courtney needed it too for her new skin. We also see a water fountain when Isabel is looking for Nicholas. Perhaps Isabel is our water element.

The radio controlled car that Nicholas has is blue and has the word Preditor on it.

I really don't like the way they're making Max seem like he was a passive non-caring leader. Nicholas's comment about Max using a coin toss to dispatch entire armies really bugged me.

My favorite line in this episode actually came from Sheriff Valenti - " I'm in awe of you everyday son and I apologize for not recognizing the man that you're becoming..."

I have a really stupid question - who are TPTB?

Starstruck

I shall believe!

We think it was in order of importance to the crisis at hand. Maybe the Skins sort of knew which humans would be the most useful to the Royal 4 and Courtney, so they got rid of them in that order. The Sheriff first cause he has a gun and knows how to use it, and is also really good at fighting the Skins. Plus, he is the Sheriff... Then its Liz cause she's got the brains and was able to figure this whole field thing and if any of your theories apply.... Then after she's gone, Kyle's the most useful cause he can fight the Skins and he did have some sort of and idea of how to stop the force field.

Finally, Maria was the last to go because (and I am a Maria fan, so don't kill me) she was the least useful in this situation. She was paniking and really confused, though at the end, she did stop the field from functioning.

Well, just some thoughts. I have more, but I wanna read whateveryone else wrote first, so I don't accidently repeat anything.

-Lizzie

Also, about the rear view mirror being missing - that is very common in prop cars because otherwise the camera would not be able to "see" the person in the back seat. You aren't supposed to notice that! It is nothing more than Hollywood "magic."

I also agree that if all those Skins were incinerated, that there would have been much more ash floating around, so the option still exists that Nick and Co. escaped to another dimension, though the scene doesn't seem to imply that - it looks like they all get burned. If that was Nick on the scooter - which I think it was - why "tease" Max and Tess that way. If he is SOOOOO Powerful, why not just us that power? Ummmm ...

Now - since no one has raised the issue - what about the preveiws for next week?? Was that a punk Mikey G kissing Liz??? I guess we now know what was in the other pods - punk podsters!?! Ummmm .... (Remember no Spoilers - just what we've seen!)

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Zero - I think it's "The Powers that Suck".
Let me guess - have you been wandering amongst dreamers????????? :-)

I also want to say - for the record - that I am not a Tess "hater". I just really think that she is evil. I am actually GLAD they have an evil/betraying character thrown in the mix - makes things MUCH more interesting!
It is also so archetypical to have the BIG BETRAYAL storyline. So far - Isabel and Michael's "betrayals" have not really been that BIG betrayal - plus we have known all along what they are struggling with. What I think is that they added Tess in and last season everyone picked up on the fact that she was an evil imposter - so the writers had to do some backtracking to try to make her more believable so that when the BB comes it is appropriately SHOCKING :-)
Since Tess joined the pod squad - we have seen it get more and more fragmented - hopefully the BB will pull them back together again.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I post for two additional reasons.
1. It took me 3 days of logging on and off to finally read this thread in it's entirety. What can I say, I feel a sense of accomplishment!
2. I'm sick of this dumb one-star rating me as "a fan in training" when I am way far past obsessed with this show! I need to lurk less, post more!

Thanks, all!
Sarah

Starbox just read your PM I will respond on there in a few minutes.

This story is getting very confusing and complicated but I just had a thought I will throw out here and see what anyone thinks

Did anyone actually see NIKOLAS peeling because I really did not--maybe its because he is not really a SKIN---what if he is NASEDO---and we still have NASEDO and TESS-Nasedo of course we know can take on ANY HUMAN FORM and then of course we had COURTNEY---Michael WORSHIPERS---because of evidence last year I always thought that NASEDO used MICHAEL AND TESS---VICE PAIR and I STILL SAY IN MAX2THEMAX they showed the outline of the PAIR of SHOES over MICHAEL and TESS.
Courtney says "LETS JUST SAY THERE ARE NO MICHAEL WORSHIPERS IN COPPERSUMMIT" No the skins are MAX's people, and maybe he doesn't realize it yet but TESS just FRIED them because that it their plan-----the story they are telling is half true only twisted---
they are making our podsters believe that the skins are their enemy but it is really Nasedo and Tess's race that is up to no good here---now suppose they wanted MICHAEL to lead or maybe Michael was leading, he was the RUTHLESS leader we have been hearing about but his sister for the love of a SKIN (MAX) and because she knew he was the best leader--we know that Max is a very benevolant leader for the most part-not flighty and impulsive like Michael is. And who is the sister that betrayed her brother, VILLONDRA (LIZ)(this could explain her actions in the BALANCE eppy her hesitancy in that ritual hmmmmmm!) and who exactly is Nasedo/Nikolas? He was the glowing one Villondra's intended future but she fell for Max the enemy (a skin)

"I just want you to know LIZ I won't let anything ever come between us!"

Rememeber we wondered who those beepers actually brought to ROSWELL and wondered whether they could actually be KILLING their own people unbeknownst to them.

Well what do you think?

I don't know who said it by also thought the red top Liz was looking at was the one she wore in SEXUAL HEALING.

Thanks, all!
Sarah

Welcome to the RBI SarahD! I think you'll fit right in here. Anyone that's seen every episode of Roswell 5x is a true fan! Just don't GraceKel the VCR too much!

LOL

What do ya think? I've totally lost it I know, but hey, I'm in good company!

Good nite all!

Your the one Liz, the only one. ~Max~
Evid

Well, to steal from Star Trek ( I watch too much tv! )Maybe nanobots or even organic microorganisms whose function is to send/recieve information and/or transmit a frequency for the podsters to identify each other. Ok, now I'm done for the night!

1. Max, MIchael, Isabel, and tess all came out.
2. Maria's dad and kyle's mom both left them when they were
3. the cupcake dress?
4. 16 the pod squad told there secret (I know isabel's 18 now but she was 16 last year or though I thought)
5. and there probably is more but I'm tired

so have any of you tought about this, I also didn't know where else to post this...

justsmile

That's what I thought but I wasn't sure....I wonder if that was one of the reasons why Max had a look that seemed as if he was remembering something important and special to him.

Like it was a specific event. And the pain that was on Liz's face when she picked up the sweater. It just seemed as if there was more than just the fact that everyone was gone. but I may just be grasping at straws.

...Did Tess HONESTLY think that Courtney and Nicolas were this powerful evil team working together??? If not - WHY would she keep making those accusations???

Evil aliens are keeping me from catching up, so I'm not gonna even try. I'm just gonna post from this alternate time dimension.

So...Maybe it was part of the plan for the essences to get shared with humans to protect them from the Skins. If so, Tess's book and Nasedo's opinion and the Mommogram are all bogus. That sounds like too much to be wrong. This theory needs tweaking.

And yea, we liked Courtney because she was heroic at the end, but maybe she was a double agent or something.

P.S. Here's the red shirt in SH:

She also wore a red shirt at the end of Heatwave (first kiss), but it was spaghetti straps, and the one in WO was more of a t-shirt. But I'm not sure about the buttons. Maybe she just has a lot of red shirts.

LOL

*grin* I've already had my year old VCR in for repairs twice from overworking it replaying Roswell over and over and over...

I like Starbox's thoughts on Liz sharing the king's essence with Max. And those who said that in Nikolaus's mind rape Max was seeing what Liz saw on her way out to the alien sign, thank you! I couldn't figure out why those highway scenes were there.

And those who speculated that Max may have took Liz's thoughts and memories unintentionally when he healed her... Could Max have the power to make someone love him, to psychicly bind someone to him? Did the bond exist between M/L before and awoke during the healing or was it one-sided and imposed?

Max and Liz sharing the same essence suggests the former while Max changing Liz during the healing implies the latter.

So...Maybe it was part of the plan for the essences to get shared with humans to protect them from the Skins. If so, Tess's book and Nasedo's opinion and the Mommogram are all bogus. That sounds like too much to be wrong. This theory needs tweaking.

THANKS FOR THE SH PICTURE!!!! <sigh> <sigh>

First - I do think the Tess book is fake (or an EA document). I have expressed before my extreme discomfort with the idea that the GA would send these kids with dual mandates to save the universe AND make/raise babies.
Pregnancy makes you vunerable, infants are vunerable, children are vunerable. The LAST thing to do if you are going to be fighting for your entire planet's survival is starting families.
The book would make sense only if the podsters were the "last of their kind" - sent to earth from a dying planet - and their only purpose was to keep their race from extinction by breeding and creating a colony on Earth.

Anyway - that is not my only issue with the book. It also has what I consider the EA symbol on it. AND I find it hard to believe that Nasedo would have had Tess as his "charge" for over a decade and not teach her how to read her own language!

As to the mom-o-gram being "fake" - what if it's not "fake" - but just a pre-recorded message - sent without "MOM" knowing about the leaking pod/Liz's transfer.

GRACEKEL - I think your idea has alot of possibility! I especially like the Nikolas/Nasedo connection. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
And you could definately see that Nasedo was pro-Michael and passive-agressive towards Max. I am going to give this some more thought and PM you again later :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I'm wondering if we are not seeing three distinct technologies here. As the race progressed they went from using skins to the essence planted in pod form to actually being able to infuse the essence into the human reproduction tract - this would give us our different forms of alien and make it possible for Liz to be 'human' and still possess all the powers and maybe more than the podsquad have. (Perhaps it is the technology that they are all fighting for.) I truely believe she has not developed fully as yet and is still hidden. This might be a reason for FMax's statement "you are not allowing yourself to change" in EOTW, which most placed on her not giving him up so he would not give her up, but I think it had more of an impact and is a more important statement than we realize. I think Liz is the KEY to the Granolith in some way and that she is also it's protector. If it falls into the wrong hands Liz will be forced to develop faster than planned. As we have learned, there seems to be less emotion on their home planet than there is here on Earth - Most of the big things have come through with emotional expressions - if the enemy plants doubt, the LOVE can't shine through, open doors and/or answer questions.
I'm a definite Dreamgirl
and
I Shall Believe
Rox

I do have to say that Riverdog comes to Michael to look at the sign left in ITW. Why did Riverdog go to Michael? I think maybe Riverdog thinks Michael is the leader. Does that mean that Nasedo is a Michael worshipper? Or was it Tic-Tac? He protected Michael in both ID and Crazy.

Thoughts, anyone?

I don't know but it seems like to me that we don't even know if Liz will meet this Serena chick anymore. Because Liz changed the events that would have lead up to her meeting this chick, so who's to say that she'll ever meet her now?

I'd have to think she'll meet her. Why put a name to a character we'll never meet? You could just say "you guys" or "someone we know", ya know? I'm guessing this Serena woman/girl will be introduced LATE in this season to lead us into next season. I'm also guessing she'll be the key to the time travel in the Granolith and then Max will ask Liz how SHE knew about that since I think Liz will be the one to give Serena the information and then everything will HAVE to come out about TEOTW and Max and Liz will live happily ever after!

Also I think something was discussed earlier that perhaps Max was erasing some of Liz's memories in comparison to Kyle's memories. This idea really bothers me. Courtney describes Nicholas as "raping" the mind--an act of violation. In Max's healing of Liz, he is given glimpses of their shared past, and in the reverse connection, he opens himself so that she can see into him. This implies the openness and sharing that so shines through the love of these 2. In Harvest Max asks Liz what she is hiding; something to the effect that they have never had secrets or lied to each other. The mutual love and respect these 2 have for each other would not allow such a violation as Nicholas performed or even Tess when she makes people see what best suits her.

GraceKel - Interesting Max=skin idea, and if I follow you, it does make some sense, but my gut feeling is, please NO! Loved the Nicholas=Nacedo idea. I hope we see more of Nicholas. He is a great little villain.

Zero - I agree with your earlier mention of Courtney vs. Tess. While Courtney hid the fact that she was a skin, she was pretty open from the very beginning about her interest in Michael which to me is honest. I don't get the same feeling of honesty from Tess. I couldn't help but feel at the end of Harvest, OK Tess, you saved the podians, you've done your part, now let's get M&L back together! I know it's not going to happen yet, but it will happen!

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:
It is also so archetypical to have the BIG BETRAYAL storyline. So far - Isabel and Michael's "betrayals" have not really been that BIG betrayal - plus we have known all along what they are struggling with. What I think is that they added Tess in and last season everyone picked up on the fact that she was an evil imposter - so the writers had to do some backtracking to try to make her more believable so that when the BB comes it is appropriately SHOCKING :-)
Since Tess joined the pod squad - we have seen it get more and more fragmented - hopefully the BB will pull them back together again.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I like this idea. It will be so satisfying when Tess is revealed, although the fragmentation of our other 3 is very disturbing.

Hey--Liz's ring is gone again.

Chica

If you have read any of the RUN LOLA RUN theories, how history keeps repeating itself til they get it right, OR they have 3 TRIES to get it right---our HUMANS have a role to play in this drama--and they are completely HUMAN on THIS PLANET EARTH. The question is are they going to get it right THIS TIME I THINK.

Starbox I am going to add to my theory that TESS is actually a SKIN who possibly loved Max and thought he should marry her, and that Nicholas/Nasedo is a GLOWING ONE like VILLANDRA(LIZ) who thought that she should be with him and these two together formed a political alliance to bring down the union of SKIN MAX and GLOWING ONE LIZ.

In a former life TESS was maybe VANESSA WHITTAKER(which explains why she was admiring her pic) and DanPierce(Nasedo shapeshifted into him) they had a conversation in S and B about getting together for political reasons, yes to bring down the empire. Now if this is true that Tess is now the new Vanessa Whittaker and Daniel Pierce was the Nasedo/Nikolas then who is going to play Nasedo/Nikolas's role in thie go round???? KYLE?(We do know KYLE has been going through some changes-now they could be GOOD CHANGES because of MAX healing him-has history already changed somewhat because Max healed Kyle and Kyle has found BUDDHA? OR Is the BUDDHA not unlike the BUDDHA from MIRAMMER(sorry don't know how to spell it) have something to do with changes that Kyle is going through and this is just the beginning? Will Tess and Kyle eventually form some political alliance? Or has this path been changed because of the healing not sure but worth a thought.

My impresion of Harding - was that he used these opportunities to defer to Max almost always with the implication via his tone of voice/comments that Max was not making good decisions. I think he played on the fact that Michael has an inherent difficulty accepting Max as the leader. Also - going back to my conviction that with all the lies/conflicting information that has been tossed at us this season - we need to go back and pay close attention to the INSTINCT of out original podsters.
Max was ALWAYS cautious/suspicious of Nasedo (and Tess). Micheal was the one who felt "compelled" by his own visions to set the symbol on the lawn of the library and draw Nasedo to him (againts Max's judgement).
Micheal also has an instinctual feeling that Nasedo is somehow his "father" - or family.

I was and still am disturbed by the whole Liz kidnapping in Max To The Max. It seemed like he was trying to draw MAX to him just as much as Pierce - and he allowed Max to be captured and tortured.
Also - Nasedo/Tess pushed Michael to develop his powers/focus and - as you mentioned - protected him (or Tic-Tac protected him) in
ID and Crazy.
I can definately buy the idea that Harding/Nasedo is a MW. I think it is extremely plausable. Maybe as we have speculated - the EA wanted Max to marry one of "theirs" (TESS) to ally the two races and Max refused - but Michael was in favor of the union.
It also seems a little TOO "convenient" that Tess shows up right after SH. I have wondered if Nasedo/Tic-Tac were Harding/Tess - (and now Nicolas/Tess). It would explain Tess's sudden appearance and Tic-Tac's disappearance.

Oh - I also think that Tess's "mission" is to mate with Max and conceive a child by him. Thereby giving the EA a biological "heir" to the throne. Then it would be easy to dispose of Max.
Tess approached max - not with the temptaion of LOVe - but of SEX. She has the "mating" book - and as recently as EOTW she says "I never asked to be his MATE". Not his wife or his girlfriend - his MATE. I think she has one mission - and that is to mate with Max and give birth to a biological heir to the Twilo throne.
I also think that all of them are therefore working AGAINST Khivar. If Tess can produce a biological heir and Micheal defects to their side - they can overthrow Khivar by producing a legitamate heir to the throne AND
have Micheal there to lead in the meantime (until the heir becomes old enough to take over). This also works well with so many archetypal stories - such as king arthur - whereby Arthur's half sister seduces him in order to concieve an heir to overthrow him.

To summarize - we would have THREE factions:
1. GA - the royals - lead by max
2. EA - the skins - lead by Khivar
3. Rebels - who want to overthrow Khivar AND Max and establish their own claim to the throne.

So max - listen up - KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF TESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-) :-)

Sorry this is so long - I always mean to write a little response and then get all carried away.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

If Isabel concieved a child via. Michael it would also have the royal bloodline and a legitimate claim to the throne. It would not be as "clean" as it would be if Tess could
concieve a direct heir - and with a Heir linked through Isabel - they would have to murder Max - which could cause a backlash.
STILL - it would be prudent for the rebels to try to get a "back-up" heir through Isabel if possible.

With this scenario - the "mating book" would actually make SENSE.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

Gracekel: Great thoughts here! About Kyle, though...I think that the whole Buddhism/Kyle thing is simply about Kyle looking for answers about his existence after 'dying' and being 'brought back to life'. Buddhism offers a whole different perspective on existence, and it makes sense that Kyle would need some answers after his experience. A lot of people 'find' Buddhism after going through something in their own lives that makes them question everything they once thought was true. It is also a humorous contrast to the jock we used to know, and I think it is simply brilliant writing. Also, Buddhists beleive strongly in re-incarnation and maybe that ties in with the podsters being back for a second round...hmmm.

OK, one last thing that has been really nagging at me. Courtney mentioned that on their planet time existed in different sub-levels (or whatever she said). Does this mean that there are different REALITIES happening at the same time? Or is it just time? Noone seemed to have taken much notice to this, but it could open up so many possibilities (and very interesting theories).

Saying that time exists on different levels very much ties in with Quantum Physics and the new laws of science. It seems to me that TPTB have been kind of heading in this direction (Max talking about Quantum Mechanics / Granolith being a time machine in EOTW)..Also, Buddhism talks about different planes of consciousness/existence. I think there are seven before a being is fully enlightened.. Anyway, just random thoughts...but I think there might be something there - it just needs to be developed further. Could is be possible that all of the events taking place on Twilo and Earth are happening at THE SAME TIME? Or, that there are actually a few different realities/scenarios happening on Twilo?

There is a great book called "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra which is an amazing book. It's an exploration of the Parallels between Modern Physics and Eastern Mysticism....in case anyone is interested!

Thanks for listening...I must immediately ingest more coffee so that I can think clearly!!!!

{~}:}

Saying that time exists on different levels very much ties in with Quantum Physics and the new laws of science. It seems to me that TPTB have been kind of heading in this direction (Max talking about Quantum Mechanics / Granolith being a time machine in EOTW)..Also, Buddhism talks about different planes of consciousness/existence. I think there are seven before a being is fully enlightened.. Anyway, just random thoughts...but I think there might be something there - it just needs to be developed further. Could is be possible that all of the events taking place on Twilo and Earth are happening at THE SAME TIME? Or, that there are actually a few different realities/scenarios happening on Twilo?

{~}:}

Great thoughts!

As for the whole time thing, when I saw WO, I took it to mean it as simply time (hence Courtney likening it to being on EST, CST, & PST all at once). But now I think it's more like different realities, a 'whole is the sum of it's parts' concept. All 3 'times' are combined to form a new one. As for all the events happening on Twilo& Earth at the same time, maybe they are on Twilo, but with limits-- the events of the 'day' happen all at the same time, but not all the years. On Earth (when time is restored to normal) I don't this can be as the 'multi-time subsets' don't exist...

Sorry for the ramble, I'm new to this & don't really know what I'm talking about!

As for the whole time thing, when I saw WO, I took it to mean it as simply time (hence Courtney likening it to being on EST, CST, & PST all at once). But now I think it's more like different realities, a 'whole is the sum of it's parts' concept. All 3 'times' are combined to form a new one. As for all the events happening on Twilo& Earth at the same time, maybe they are on Twilo, but with limits-- the events of the 'day' happen all at the same time, but not all the years. On Earth (when time is restored to normal) I don't this can be as the 'multi-time subsets' don't exist...

Sorry for the ramble, I'm new to this & don't really know what I'm talking about!

Welcome! I'm pretty new to this as well...so no need to apologize!

The thing that gets me is if, let's just say, time is existing in Eastern, Standard and Mountain at the SAME time...it would have to mean that each of those times has their own different realities.

Remember the show "Sliders"? I'm thinking it would have to be more along the lines of that concept... and if you can exist in more than one different "time zone" at the same time....wow. Imagine the ideas you could come up with there.

One other thing, while I'm ranting..The T. Greir skin in Harvest said to Max, "and you must be the once and future king". That just makes me think that the only way Khivar sits on the thrown now is because Max is dead...but if Max ever gets back to Twilo he is automatically re-instated as King? It's the future king part of that sentence that has been nagging me. What does he mean? Does he know something we don't? And because TPTB have introduced this whole "we can screw with time, dimensions, etc" into the plot...do they know something that we don't about the future? (as well as the past?)...

I'm getting carried away...must pinch myself....

{~}:}

How did we get to 16? Yikes! I have a lot of catching up to do.

Hey GraceKel! I finally got my new VCR. Yeah! A JVC that does jog shuttle frame by frame and slo-mo. Oh, Roswell, you are such a bad influence. Anyway, now I'll actually be able to GraceKel with the best of you. See ya!

Remember the show "Sliders"? I'm thinking it would have to be more along the lines of that concept... and if you can exist in more than one different "time zone" at the same time....wow. Imagine the ideas you could come up with there..

Hmmm... I get it, but... then I don't ... wow I'm so lost my head hurts

"The once and future King" comment I always took it at face value. Previously he was, currently he's not since he was overthrown by Kivhar, and future because that's why the Podsters were sent to Earth to take back the throne & their "race" rule again.

But like you say the quote:TPTB have introduced this whole "we can screw with time, dimensions, etc" into the plot...

... and that just messes with my mind

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Yo.. L** is not an alien... how can she have an importance to a mythology she does not exist in herself?

Okay that's it.. Have a nice day.

Ny

Yo.. L** is not an alien... how can she have an importance to a mythology she does not exist in herself?

Okay that's it.. Have a nice day.

Ny[/B]

Ny - I am sure that if you read the introduction to this thread and the archieves threads - as well as the fascinating research at the Maxcedo sites you will see that Liz is invaluable to the alien mythology - whether or not she actually ends up being revealed as having alien roots or essence.

You may also find the signs and symbols thread to be enlightening if you are searching for answers to the mythology, symbolism and archetypal significance of Roswell and all of it's characters.

Okay - is this thread at 250 yet?????????????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Oh - I also think that Tess's "mission" is to mate with Max and conceive a child by him. Thereby giving the EA a biological "heir" to the throne. Then it would be easy to dispose of Max.
Tess approached max - not with the temptaion of LOVe - but of SEX. She has the "mating" book - and as recently as EOTW she says "I never asked to be his MATE". Not his wife or his girlfriend - his MATE. I think she has one mission - and that is to mate with Max and give birth to a biological heir to the Twilo throne.
I also think that all of them are therefore working AGAINST Khivar. If Tess can produce a biological heir and Micheal defects to their side - they can overthrow Khivar by producing a legitamate heir to the throne AND
have Micheal there to lead in the meantime (until the heir becomes old enough to take over). This also works well with so many archetypal stories - such as king arthur - whereby Arthur's half sister seduces him in order to concieve an heir to overthrow him.

To summarize - we would have THREE factions:
1. GA - the royals - lead by max
2. EA - the skins - lead by Khivar
3. Rebels - who want to overthrow Khivar AND Max and establish their own claim to the throne.

So max - listen up - KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF TESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-) :-)

Sorry this is so long - I always mean to write a little response and then get all carried away.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

[/B]

Starbox--I definitely think this theory is RIGHT ON! Tess isn't the type to be all lovey-dovey "I'm not into bonding."

It would make sense to have a legitimate heir that still has skin routes. I am also very suspicious of this emphasis on mating.

I am impressed.

Welcome to all Newbies!

I'm amazed at the new time-shifting theories - so interesting!! I have a hard time wrapping my mind around it, but ...

I plan to put the new thread up tonight - so look for Thread #17 by midnight (or sooner if I can find the time!!). I want to revise the intro to include new information!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

chicatron

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There are rumors going around that Liz is a hybrid mix of human and alien, and she heals Max in an upcoming episode. However, I have found by searching my brain for all possible clues of this, that may not be the case. This is my theory:
In "The White Room" when Nasedo is trying to get Michael to copy the finger prints of the dead FBI Agent there is an interesting bit of conversation it goes as follows:

NASEDO: Humans are weak – which doesn’t bother me – and wasteful. Their brains are incredible machines they haven’t even begun to use. When you were engineered, you were given the capacity to do everything the human brain is capable of.

MICHAEL: You mean beside our powers?

NASEDO: Those are your powers, Michael. Everything you can do is human. You were just programmed to be several thousand years ahead of mankind, that’s all. But from what I saw earlier, you’ve barely tapped into what you’re capable of. You can do it, Michael. The only thing stopping you is yourself. Try again.
--------------
I think when Max connected with Liz to show her his thoughts (not healed her) he may have accidentally awakened that dormant part of her brain that gives humans all the powers that the pod squad are able to use. Her mind could have unconciously, through the connection, seen what Max's mind was capable of, therefore trying to duplicate it.
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There. This may be a little strange, but hey. I've been thinking about that for quite awhile, and after seeing this thread,the theory just formed in my mind.
~*Catie*~

And Starbox, re: quote:
My impresion of Harding - was that he used these opportunities to defer to Max almost always with the implication via his tone of voice/comments that Max was not making good decisions. I think he played on the fact that Michael has an inherent difficulty accepting Max as the leader. Also - going back to my conviction that with all the lies/conflicting information that has been tossed at us this season - we need to go back and pay close attention to the INSTINCT of out original podsters.
Max was ALWAYS cautious/suspicious of Nasedo (and Tess). Micheal was the one who felt "compelled" by his own visions to set the symbol on the lawn of the library and draw Nasedo to him (againts Max's judgement).
Micheal also has an instinctual feeling that Nasedo is somehow his "father" - or family.

I was and still am disturbed by the whole Liz kidnapping in Max To The Max. It seemed like he was trying to draw MAX to him just as much as Pierce - and he allowed Max to be captured and tortured.
Also - Nasedo/Tess pushed Michael to develop his powers/focus and - as you mentioned - protected him (or Tic-Tac protected him) in
ID and Crazy.
I can definately buy the idea that Harding/Nasedo is a MW. I think it is extremely plausable. Maybe as we have speculated - the EA wanted Max to marry one of "theirs" (TESS) to ally the two races and Max refused - but Michael was in favor of the union.
It also seems a little TOO "convenient" that Tess shows up right after SH. I have wondered if Nasedo/Tic-Tac were Harding/Tess - (and now Nicolas/Tess). It would explain Tess's sudden appearance and Tic-Tac's disappearance.

Oh - I also think that Tess's "mission" is to mate with Max and conceive a child by him. Thereby giving the EA a biological "heir" to the throne. Then it would be easy to dispose of Max.
Tess approached max - not with the temptaion of LOVe - but of SEX. She has the "mating" book - and as recently as EOTW she says "I never asked to be his MATE". Not his wife or his girlfriend - his MATE. I think she has one mission - and that is to mate with Max and give birth to a biological heir to the Twilo throne.
I also think that all of them are therefore working AGAINST Khivar. If Tess can produce a biological heir and Micheal defects to their side - they can overthrow Khivar by producing a legitamate heir to the throne AND
have Micheal there to lead in the meantime (until the heir becomes old enough to take over). This also works well with so many archetypal stories - such as king arthur - whereby Arthur's half sister seduces him in order to concieve an heir to overthrow him.

To summarize - we would have THREE factions:
1. GA - the royals - lead by max
2. EA - the skins - lead by Khivar
3. Rebels - who want to overthrow Khivar AND Max and establish their own claim to the throne.

So max - listen up - KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF TESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :-) :-)

Sorry this is so long - I always mean to write a little response and then get all carried away.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

I think you are totally right on. I have suggested all of the above at different times, but never put it together into one comprhensive package like you have. The only possibility I might add would be some change in Tess--perhaps by allowing herself to be part human she will have feelings that go beyond "Destiny" in the end.

I for one feel really good about Max and Liz repairing their relationship in the next episode.

WipeOut is an excellent Liz episode because she agains, solves the problem. No wonder Max is so in love with her.

Okay, so I'm going to start watching this tape. I will either see Monsters/Missing/Balanced or The Convention... I haven't seen them since they first aired!!!!! I hope I will have more clues to report to you!

I would think that it would make Liz keep an eye out for her.

I'm new to posting here so I don't know if this was covered. When the group went to
River Dog to heal Michael, River Dog wouldn't let her help. He said because it would interupt the flow. She managed to "approch" them anyway even though she didn't have a healing stone. Could she be something of a catalyst?

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Shapeshifter remember a long time ago you like to see what has been presented and then turn it on its head because we could be partly misinformed or it could be misrepresented and such, well that is what I have been doing with my little theory with ROSWELL LOL!!! Others seem set on believing everything as we being told well this is the way it was on TWILO so it must be TRUE!!!
Since I feel more like I know Max, Liz, Isabel,Michael,and everyone else what they say is one thing, however all these strange characters coming in and just unloading all this information on them, well I just cannot believe it is this simple, after all if it isn't complicated then......LOL!!!! And it seems like life in ROSWELL has been steadily going down the unhappy trails since Nasedo and Tess showed up so I have to start with them.
As for Kyle remember how you and I have talked about ROCKY ROCOON being Kyles whole story LOL--well the line GIDEON checked out and left with no doubt to help with poor Rocky's revival. Of course this explains Kyles obsession now with BUDDHISM but can anyone tell me why Mr Harding had an ancient BUDHHA at his home? Do you have any explanation for that? If you could come up with something I would appreciate it---I guess that is where I get stuck?

As for TESS I don't see any redeeming qualities in her yet to believe she can be rehabilitated or that she is trustworthy. I know everyone says her awful upbringing made her what she is but, for every step she takes that you want to believe might be helpful to the podsters she seems to take two or three that are suspect. I have been waiting for something to change my mind on this but nothing has yet.

Wasn't there suppose to be a thread on this board for VANESSA WHITTAKERS journals or something----or do we have to go to that other site which I was unable to access?

Zero
I Shall Believe!