We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, finding “clues” to Liz’s importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics – and there are a lot of them! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read. You can find it at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology.

The following is a summary (sorry it is so long!) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled, however, not all theories are covered in-depth. Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY. Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance!

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things continued on the “current” course, Liz and Max would end up married, and all H#** would break out, resulting in Earth being taken over – by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says) in 2014 – all due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that connection irreparably or just temporarily? Lets go back to the beginning, since few (if any) questions re: that connection have been answered in this Season – yet!

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? But if so, why did she disappear in Wipeout?);
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth;
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents (Though this seems less and less likely after TEOTW, and now that we see that there are duplicate podsters – with Tess included. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz?);
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth;
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence;
· Could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. She seems to have been drawn to him prior to the healing, but figured he was not interested in her – they obviously knew each other since 3rd grade and were lab partners. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that are all human (according to Harding). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents or is she adopted like the Evans kids, does she have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble – and how this plays into the connection with Max? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her? We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now.) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ people from long ago? How does the Granolith fit into this? We now know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine –so did other have a chance to us it this way?). (So, many questions … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the human race and the podsters’ people. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being been split between two beings – Max and Liz? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities? (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history destined to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the secrets being kept by the podsters from one-another. As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no??

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Now Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another?

The symbolism throughout the seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often. Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Viking (?) Ship that is tied to a tale directly relevant to our star-crossed lovers and their trials. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. There are lots of others! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK is too intelligent for that!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? And why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences?), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon (Thanks Starbox!!) and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about this to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision, and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry ….)

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, and figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” Max, and bring him into “balance”? Could she possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many have expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz is capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW seems to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max) wonder how she knows these things?

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library) and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK?)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication, SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy, and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the podsquad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seem to be confined to their husks. But the Skins and Max’s alien predecessor’s kind seem to have been from different races. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? We now know there were other pods planted at the same time – apparently with duplicate podsters, but where and what happened to those pods? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? Are these look-a-likes Clones? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him – why? And are there another race of aliens (a third race of aliens)? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the chosen human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2??

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all.

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.
1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disk like objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Alex & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 12th grade
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to sum up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Thanks for the compliation of theories

nope, wasn't. Anyway... I personally don't believe Liz is an alien but I do think there's a lot more importance to her than they suggest. After all, between them Max and Liz created the "other" future.

Just as a sidenote on that... If in that reality, Liz and Max stuffed it, *together*, in this reality, couldn't they work it out right together? I think so.

Anyway... I have a theory on the Aries constellation that i posted forever ago, but I have nothing better to do now so I may as well rewite it...;

Aries is made up of four main stars: Alpha, Beta, Gamma, Delta, and occasionally Venus comes through, depending on where the constellation is in the sky at the time.

Soooooooo... i can't post this as symbols so I am going to have to go find a pic. I will be back shortly...

Ok, so see over Michael's shoulder, the V? see how one star is kinda closer in to the top? So assume each star is one of the pod squad. each person's power, on the home planet, is represented by the placement of their star in the V. So Max is most powerful, followed by Michael as his second in command. Then Tess as Max's wife, then Isabel. And, for whatever reason, Liz is least pwerful, assuming she's Venus.

This is where the complications come in. See, gamma Arietis, Tess's star, is a double star. It was actually the first star to be realised as such. So, if my theory is correct, there are two Tess's. One major, one minor. so... and this total speculation, on my speculation, one Tess could have died very early in life, the other took her place. In other words, Tess isn't Tess.

The photograph above is actually slightly inaccurate. Venus is the third brightest object in the sky, so just swap the fruthest two stars around, Liz's one should be further out. Now look again at the constellation. Max and Liz's marks are by far the brightest, Liz's is the third brightest in the sky after the sun and moon, and Max's is also pretty damned bright. So maybe, speculation again, the brightness of their marker could point to how important they are in terms of something else... ie, to save the world. In which case Liz would be a MAJOR part!

Just a few other things... the symbol inInto The Woods has five points - the outer lines, the points of a triangle - indicating five people? original pod squad, Nasedo, + Liz? It's possible.

And the healing symbol in Balance, there are five spaces around the outside, plus one for a person in the middle. Is there a sixth person, who we haven't met yet? hmmmmmm.....?

just so you have something to think over...

-gij

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Ok, I just watched Monsters and Missing for the first time both of these show orginally aired. That is a long time to go without reviewing these two episoded. I strongly recomment going back to the early episodes.

There is no doubt that Liz and Max are connected. Even if they are not together, what they shared when Max healed her was unique. How it's unique, remains rather mysterious. I definately got a feeling that there was no way on Earth or Twilo that Max would have let her die. Liz is way to important for that.

What I forgot about in Missing is Max getting the vision of Kyle in Liz's bedroom. He said he'll get them when "with heightened emotions". I think that Max will see that what Liz has done. He just needs to touch something Future Max touched.

How about the pictures of Liz and Max together in the photo booth that FM picked up and was staring at - this would be the perfect item for Max to pick up and get a flash!

Those old episodes are wonderful, aren't they!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Someone with more time than me, please go and catalog the dates of Whitaker's journal at www.silverhandprint.com I am sure Zero would love to add it in her timeline!

The timeline is getting better and better!

I don't have any idea's how I just thought that was interesting...

justsmile

I don't have any idea's how I just thought that was interesting...

justsmile

Wow, you guys are really on a roll! I just have to get in on this.
First, Qfanny & Zero,
I had thought that Tess had given Max the vision of Liz with Kyle in the bedroom, but it didn't fit with what was going on with Tess at that moment. Now, after reading your posts, I realize that you are right Qfanny!

And justsmile,
How bout the hunters/shooter were Skins who had "to get rid of her" because she was essential to saving the podsters just as Tess is. And FM ***knew*** that Liz and Max would find a way to "make their own Destiny," in spite of Tess. I think Tess is going to recognize their love when **she** finally experiences love/bonding. But...will it be (sadly) for Max, or for Kyle?

I am working on uploading the threads, but my phone lines are limited to a 26400 and the EAs are taking over the DSL at work--I am seriously expecting to see a large piece of dried, peeled Elmer's glue draped over my computer at work tomorrow! Anyway, most of the threads are there now, and the link will be http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology

Shapeshifter - thanks for the link!! I will change the intro now.

Also - if someone does compile a list of dates with a note from Whitaker's diary entries PM me with them, and I will add them to the Timeline. I started the timeline for fun and to clear up some confusion on some of the first threads, and now it has taken on a life of its own! It is fun to watch it "grow."

Night all! Just watched Gilmore Girls - love that show, very witty and cute - so I'm ready to sleep!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I think you could be on to something!

Max and Liz forever!!

As for the Lilth symbol - it is the BLACK moon :-)
Interestingly - the more I look up images/symbols that are connected with the EA - they all are looping back to Lilth - just as all the symbols in the GA camp link us back to a Max/Liz connection.
For example - the Whittakers?? had pictures of owls in their house (you can see them when they are talking with M/L/I/T in the living room) - Owls are not only "evil" - they are associated with Lilth.

Interesting.................................

GraceKel - I sent you a couple of PM's yesterday - LMK if you did not recieve them and I will resend.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

so.... what if liz and max do get together (the marriage, kids, etc) years down the line? with liz's intelligence and max's advancement, it could bring about the start of max's alien race. if it's come into the alien history of these two coupling, maybe that's why the royal four were sent back in time, so this could occur. max getting married to tess could have been a ploy for max to never get together w/ liz, thus forming max's race and the skins being in control. the alien race, finding the ploy, kills the royal four and sent their essence back into time to again, attempt max and liz getting together. when the skins learn this, they could have sent people to earth to kill liz, not knowing max would save her, in the hopes of max and liz not getting together. ... i guess i'm incorporating "terminator" and "run, lola, run" into this.

.... just a thought.

oops... i meant to write, max getting married to tess could be a ploy for max to never get together w/ liz, thus wiping out max's race from ever existing and w/o max's race, the skins are in control.

sorry. my mind was going too fast for my hands.

Oh - and thanks Starbox - add the Black Moon to the intro!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
Wait- I thought owls were good. Didn't the head Norse god Odin have a pet owl?

Norse mythology also has a wolf ( I think it's called Fenris ) that at the End of The World, will be freed from it's chains to fight a huge Snake that is currently looped around the world. I'm going on a VERY vague memory here.

WR

I am very disappointed no one has gone over to www.silverhandprint.com and made comments of Whitaker's journal. So I will do it and report back. I hope I can help Zero with her timeline.

Reggie
I think if we look at the owls anti-logically you can see that owls are a negative symbol. The anti-logical proof of this is the anagram, owls= {slow,lows}.

StarBox: I missed your last post on Lilith, and everyone is still talking about it, could you repost it sometime this weekend here?

And everyone, please try to get over the the Hero's Journey thread and read it before it's pruned. I had maxcedo go there and read it, and a copy was made.

This is the url-- http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/002309.html RBI member czech please did a nice HJ for Liz that is worth reading!

Wait- I thought owls were good. Didn't the head Norse god Odin have a pet owl?

[/B]

Heres some stuff on owls - I dont know about Norse Mythology per se - but here is a plethora from other cultures:

Greek Mythology - sacred to Athene - a nocturnal bird, related to the moon and unable to bear sunlight - in this respect it is in sharp contrast to the EAGLE which gazes directly at the sun. "Athenes owl symbolizes reflection which rules the darkness".

Ancient Egypt : The owl was the image of cold, darkness and death

China - The owl is a terrifying creature thought to have devoured its own mother. Children born at the solstice (Day of the OWL) were thought to inherit natural violence. Owls were considered savage, unlucky creatures.

American Indians - believed owls had dominion over the night - guided souls to the land of the dead.

Mayan - Chorti sorcerers - believed to be evil incarnate were able to turn themselves into owls. Owls were a messenger of death and an ill omen

Aztecs - the owl symbolozed he god of HELL. Avatar of darkness, rain and the storm.

Celtic - In the tale of Math Mathowney, Llew's unfaithful wife, Blodeuwedd, is changed into an OWL to punish her for comitting adultery with a neighboring lord.

Peruvian/Inca - linked to death an sacrifices. God who is half-human half-owl holds a sacrificial knife in one hand and an urn in the other to collect his victim's blood.

And - Lilth herself is often depicted with owls by her side.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Feb 4, 1950 (Skins arrive ?)
Feb 5, 1950 (1st day in Skins)
Feb 13, 1950 (Motor skills improving)
March 8, 1950 (Vanessa adopts her name Vanessa Crawford: mastering art of contractions)
July 4, 1950 (Been three months and still looking for the Royal Four)
Oct 4, 1957 (7 yrs looking, low morale, 20% causilities, Vanessa states must find them to recover granilith and go home.)
Jan 8, 1958 (Vanessa's journal logged "How?")
Nov 3, 1962 (Vanessa wrote, "Still can't talk about it.)
Feb 13, 1963 (Nicolas was a general in the palace at home.)
Sept 23, 1968 (Skins are starting to peel.)
March 23, 1970 (Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans)
May 14, 1978 (Nicolas plans the Harvest)
Oct 11, 1984 (Nicolas tells Vanessa to be a senator)
May 29, 1994 (Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico)
May 16, 1996 (John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash)
May 5, 1999 (Vanessa writes about dating Pierce)
April 18, 2000 (Daniel Pierce left for Roswell)
Sept 25, 2000 (Piercedo sells out Whitaker with saying CandiumX doesn't exist. Whitaker realizes there is something wrong with Pierce.)
Sept 29, 2000 (Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls.)
Oct 6, 2000 (Whitaker's office is set up, has employee of Liz Parker. Bones w/ CandiumX found. Sheriff very jumpy and suspicious. Nicolas reporst deserters from Copper Summit.)
Oct 7, 2000 (Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter". And he went to Max Evans, therefore, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Isabel is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to through them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed the shapeshifter.)

Okay, that's it folks. Notice that when Skin & Bones aired, it was suppose to be before school started. But Vanessa's journal says late Sept and early Oct.

The dates seem all messed up to me.

What are your comments?

Oh - and Starbox - cool info about owls!!

Zero
I Shall Believe~

QFANNY--I have been trying to access WHITTAKER's JOURNAL but have been unable to do it-I keep getting an error message or something---so glad you brought over that information---INCREDIBLE!!!! THANKYOU!
ALSO--I just read NYLON's post off the other thread---and I think that certainly fits very well in the ROSWELL SCHEME of things. Thanks for bringing it to our attention.

STARBOX-I am heading over to answer your PM's as soon as I am done posting---I FOUND SOMETHING ELSE he!he!

OKAY NOW REMEMBER I KEEP HARPING ON THAT CARD GAME in INTO THE WOODS
Max has a hand of 3 ROYAL ACES and 2 NINES?
And then he CHANGES one of the ROYAL ACES to a 2DIAMONDS?-----Now in BLOOD BROS--Liz says to Max "Maybe you can stay for dinner, BLUEMOON BURGER, SATURN RINGS, and a MERCURY MILKSHAKE for 3.99--get it---3ROYALS and 99(the two 9's?) STARBOX this fits with what we have been discussing about E's VICE PAIR?
But ALSO does this mean that the ROYALS are from 3 different alien races?
I am willing to bet that MAX is the BLUEMOON BURGER, also KYLE, and the whole VALENTI CLAN for that matter up to VALENTI SR. Anyone want to guess about the others?

My thinking is that in TEOTW, Liz asks Kyle (or was it the other way around?) if he feels different since Max healed him. Even though he tells her he did not have flashes, he does smile and shakes his head yes to indicate that he does feel different (as does Liz). So, they have both felt affected by their healings. (I realize that they could just be talking about the emotional results of the traumas.)

But, what if the healing in itself was the triggering event for enhanced human abilities? Or, the intensity of their particular healings (reviving from near death as opposed to removing a bruise) triggers these changes? If so, couldn't we expect Kyle to see flashes when his emotions are heightened by someone or something? If this happens in future episodes, might it give us some indication as to the talents/abilities that are solely Liz's? (And I believe she still has plenty to offer her alien friends!)

Ree99

p.s. Zero, thanks again for your great synopsis. I wish I had had your talent for succintness (sp?) last spring in my History 104 class!

THANK YOU QFANNY!!! I will incorporate these dates into my timeline when I have time!!!! I have copied them already, but want to make it fit right!!! I really appreciate it!

should the "Vanessa wrote" dates have ***'s around them to indicate that they're from silverhandprint.com which (I think) is fanfiction? BTW, it took me a while to realize I had to click on the V symbol to get to the first page of CW's writings at silverhandprint.com, and then it took me even longer (um, days) to figure out to scroll down to get to the next pages. If Qfanny hadn't reposted it, I probably wouldn't have pursued it.

Hopefully this pic will show up:

This is Vincent Van Gogh's "Starry Night", and it was painted while he was in an asylum... But get this - the stars are the constellation Aries with the crescent-shaped Venus to the right (according to the discussion alongside the painting's pic)! Also, notice the yin/yang swirl (think orb/GA symbol) in the center and another smaller one off to the right. I am not sure what all this means, but I thought it was hella cool! I wonder if a copy of this print has shown up in any episodes???

Catch ya later!

Vanessa: Butterfly
Veronica: true image
Daniel: God is my judge

I'm not sure yet on the meaning in regards to the characters...does anyone else have any ideas? I put Veronica up cause in the journals, Vanessa says that she was debating between the two names.

I have been reading here for the last couple weeks -- "lurking", and it is fascinating!

Zero -- I felt totally caught up on the theories presented by reading your intros -- outstanding!

I believe that Liz is an "awakening" human, who's gift is that of an open soul. Was it ever determined why the podsters DNA was mixed with human DNA? In "Wipeout", Nicolas refered to how Max made decisions on the home planete by the "flip of a coin." I'm wondering if by being involved with Liz, is Max being awakened as well, to be more human in some ways, to make him a truly benevolent leader. (ahhh...grasshoppa)

I believe that the destiny book is really a history book. The only thing we know for sure is that Tess got p/o and left making the unit weak.

I believe, I am tired, and these are just the ramblings of a droopy mind...

makoto14

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I believe, I am tired, and these are just the ramblings of a droopy mind... makoto14, I think this:
"I believe that Liz is an 'awakening' human, who's gift is that of an open soul"
is the beautiful part of a mind drifting off to sleep.

And I also think Liz is just as important to the survival of the World as Tess.

I know why they mixed the DNA...I meant why specifically HUMAN DNA and not some other race of beings...surely there must be millions...

I am tired.

makoto14

I guess I better go to bed!

Nite all!

many apologies..!

THANK YOU QFANNY!!! I will incorporate these dates into my timeline when I have time!!!! I have copied them already, but want to make it fit right!!! I really appreciate it!

should the "Vanessa wrote" dates have ***'s around them to indicate that they're from silverhandprint.com which (I think) is fanfiction? BTW, it took me a while to realize I had to click on the V symbol to get to the first page of CW's writings at silverhandprint.com, and then it took me even longer (um, days) to figure out to scroll down to get to the next pages. If Qfanny hadn't reposted it, I probably wouldn't have pursued it.

shapeshifter- as far as I know, www.silverhandprint.com is an exclusive site done by the WB for the fans. I would not consider it a fanfic, but maybe I should. What do the other agents think on this?

bump
Anyone got a definitive answer?

Just wanted to post this screencap from www.thedddcom to show the V pattern in Max's curtains. This is from the Riverdog ep...

GraceKel - I think you are DEFINATELY on to something BIG. As much as we may hate to consider the possibility that Michael is a "weak link" in the chain - with the potential to turn to the "dark side" - I think the clues and EVERYTHING else we have seen - since season one - supports this theory.

If our theory is correct about the three warring factions (and I really, really think it is) - then the "rebels" have two major goals:
1) Produce an heir with the royal bloodline to give them a legitamite claim to the Twilo throne - via a Tess/Max union. It HAS to be through Max because his child will have the birthright to claim the throne.
2) Bring Michael to their side (hence the MW).
Micheal is necessary because he would have the authority/power to unite both races and
to "rally the troops" as it were to fight on their behalf. Also - his defection would considerably weaken Max's ability to stage any counter-rebellion. We are told that he COULD have done this on Twilo but was unwilling to betray Max - I think the "rebels" are STILL after him to join their fight.
A bonus for them would be to encourage a Michael/Isabel union - therby giving them an indirect claim to the throne via. royal bloodline.
KHIVAR would also love to get Isabel to his side (hence the Vilandra project) because her child would lend stability/legitimacy to his hold on the throne - but Khivar doesnt HAVE to have her because he is already IN power on Twilo.

Thus - in the eyes of the rebels - TESS and MICHAEL are their "VICE PAIR". They are the key to a successfull campaign to overthrow both Khivar and Max.

This explains WHY no one is just outright KILLING the podsters. They need Micheal - and they need Max's heir. The REBELS are not after the granolith.

Here is another way to looks at it:
There are THREE opposing "camps"

1) Max supporters - have the royal bloodline - have legitimate claim to the throne.
Includes Max, Isabel, Liz

2) Khivar supporters - have control of Twilo at present. Goal is to KILL the royals after discovering the granolith. A bonus "prize" would be "converting Isabel" thus giving them a partial claim to the royal lineage.
Includes (I think) - the "skins" and maybe (probably?) Nikolas

3) REBELS - include members of both races -
their goal is to overthrow Khivar and Max and to sieze control of the throne. They can only do this WITH a legitamite heir to the throne to "lead" them - rally the troops - draw support - etc.
Goal - infiltrate the pod squad and produce a
royal heir. HOPEFULLY through Max - since his son is going to have the most claim to the throne and be the most successful at "uniting" both races. They also want to "recruit" Michael as their leader as the "Kings" trusted "second in command" would also give them legitimacy (think the movie Gladiator where Maximus had as much power in terms of popular opinion as the Ceaser).
Their bonus is that a Micheal/Isabel union would also give them a legitamite heir.
BUT - even given an Isabel birthed heir - without Max dead - there would always be the risk that he or his son could come and reclaim the throne.
As long as there is hope for an heir - the royals are relatively "safe".
Rebels include TESS, HARDING, COURTNEY

Michael is the swing character - not fully a Max supporter or a rebel at this point - he is torn between both camps.

This could be part of the reason that EOTW was a critical episode. With hope for an heir gone - the rebles may have launched a full-out offensive against the Khivar-supporters. Max/Isabel/Michael would have been caught in the crossfire. BUT - the rebel forces would have still tried to protect them up until the end (EOTW) in the hopes that once the rebels defeated Khivar's troops - that they could convince Max/Micheal/Isabel to defect to their side.
This makes all the aliens we see that are working to PROTECT but not HELP the pod squad make sense. The rebels DONT want them dead (yet) - in fact they will protect them from Khivar's troops until the very end.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Qfanny, silverhandprint.com is definitely RIGHT THERE, top right on the home page of the WB. However, if you click on the "legal/privacy" link at the bottom of the page, there is: quote:...LINKED SITES

The WB Television Network, whether or not affiliated with sites which may be linked to this site, is not responsible for their content ("Linked Sites"). The Linked Sites are for your convenience only and you access them at your own risk.

Submissions DISCLAIMER

The materials in The WB Television Network's Web Sites are provided "as is" and without warranties of any kind either express or implied...
So, is VW's notebook a clue for us straight from those who are spinning the mythology that we love to decipher, or...or not? Anybody suggest a place to write/email to get the answer on this?

And Starbox: what about when Nick said he wanted them all dead?

**StarBox**

I just remembered something else about Tess that EVID had pointed out in FOUR SQUARE when she goes into the ladies room and Liz follows her in but she seems to DISAPPEAR in there------why????? Does she have shapeshifting ability. And that fire ability-now didn't TOPOLSKY and company die in a fire in that hospital?

I wonder who KHIVAR is going to be?

I think so far what we have been seeing this season is the pods TRUSTING the WRONG PEOPLE and they just might be cutting their own throats as well as their own races as well.

And Starbox: what about when Nick said he wanted them all dead?[/B]

My theory is that Nick is a Khivar-supporter and the Khivar supporters want to find the granolith and KILL the royals. They do not need the bloodline to claim power because they already HAVE the throne. The easiest thing for them to do is KILL Max to ensure that no-one from the royal bloodline can come back with a claim to the throne.

It is the REBELS that have to keep the royals alive - while at the same time trying to subvert Michael/breed an heir via. Tess.
They are in a position where they need the legitimacy of the royal bloodline in order to mount a full scale rebellion and lay claim to the throne. With a leader of Max's race (Michael) and an heir to the royal throne - the rebels could unite BOTH races and take back the Twilo throne.

Basically - MAX and his race have the legitimate claim to the throne. KHIVAR and his race have CONTROL of Twilo right now.

THe REBELS dont have any way to take over the throne - they dont have the power Khivar has or a legitimate claim like Max has - therefore the royals are crucial to their efforts. They have to have at least ONE of them turn to their side so that they can get the majority of Max's race behind their "cause". Otherwise - Max's "people" will be waiting for their KING to return and will not join in the rebellion. I think that if the rebels could secure and heir and/or Micheal they would kill Max as well. Until then - he is much more valuable alive.

Does that make any sense to you???

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

Qfanny and Shapeshifter, I went and looked at silverhandprint.com. It's cute and funny, but for now I'm taking it all with a pinch of salt. Some of the "facts" just seem to create even bigger holes.

SF

Qfanny and Shapeshifter, I went and looked at silverhandprint.com. It's cute and funny, but for now I'm taking it all with a pinch of salt. Some of the "facts" just seem to create even bigger holes.

SF
Yes it's "cute," but so is a lot of Roswell. What we need to know is, who created it and for what purpose? Is it supposed to jive with the plot of the show, and if so, who approves it?

I have been wondering ever since TEOTW aired why Liz said she saw flashed when Max healed her. Max was the one who saw the flashes and that is why he did the reverse connection to her so she could see in him. I think this is probably why she gets flashes not only from Max,but Harding also. This reverse connection was never severed. I bet if she was able to open up completelu to Michael and Isabel she could see things too. Maybe she should try this on Tess. I do think something was awakened in her so the possibility of this awakening happening to Kyle is good. If say long descendants of Roswell came from past alien races,both the Parkers and Valenti's are good candidates for having some alien anscestry.

I'm so absorbed by this show.

I just read VW journal. It was very interesting. the dates didn't make sense,but I was wondering what all the blacked out stuff said. Was this website created by the WB. I can't remember. Also it was interestng how the journal states that the queen could have switched herself. But it makes it seem as though Vilandra was queen now and not merely Max's sister. Well it was a little confusing.

This may have already been discussed, but who was watching Maria and Liz on the street in Wipeout? (the scene with the coffee and they heard something and it looked like someone was watching them from an odd perspective) Do you think that was one of the rebels or was it Tess keeping an eye on them?

I totally dig this show!

m-14

I ask because B5 was very much like y'all're making Roswell out to be -- nearly every little detail of the series meant something in the final analysis. For example, the healing machine they found in the first season (The Quality of Mercy?) meant something in what was originally planned to be the third-to-last episode (Endgame?). (I'm not definitively sure of the ep titles). I won't tell you what happens with the machine, though. If you haven't seen B5, I highly recommend it, though.

And I've gotta say that if Jason Katims is using JMS (B5's creator) as his role model for SF, he could do much, much worse.

Looking forward to reading all of your theories,
Barbara

P.S. what's an "RBI," besides "run batted in," of course . . .

PW/JPRules,
RBI is Roswell Bureau of Investigation (looking for clues)

Makoto, Don't worry about discussing things that have already been brought up. We love to rehash stuff and get new insights. After all, look at me, I'm just a shadow of my former self.
--shapeshifter

I'm praying my VCR tapes! I figure Dupe means not only duplicate but also that someone gets duped in this next episode, so I can hardly wait to watch it when I get back!

I was at an auction tonight, and one of the class projects was "Stary Night" - it was so cool - but we didn't get it!

Love the warring factions summary/theory!!

Welcome to all Newbies !

I'm off to hang out with a large Mouse, and have a fun Thanksgiving! Everyone have a great Thanksgiving, and I'll chat with you all when I get back!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Well, they own the domain name, and it's hosted on the WB's servers, but when I looked it up at NetworkSolutions.com, I found this:
http://www.networksolutions.com/cgi-bin/whois/whois?STRING=silverhandprint.com&STRING=Search

Who's Apollo Interactive?

Hey, this is a pretty cool mystery all by itself!

Thanks to all of you for the definition of RBI!

Barbara

Now, I've missed all of the past discussion, so this might have been discussed before, but knowing that Max was once the kind of guy who'd risk hundreds (or thousands?) of lives on the toss of a coin, I wouldn't put rape past him.

I'm not going to go so far as to say that Liz is the reincarnation of the first wife in question (though that would be incredibly cool), but what if Max had a first wife who died or left rather than let him rape her, so his parents arranged for him to have a more-compliant second wife as well? Tess is beginning to grow on me, so I don't mean to disparage her, for those hussies (?) out there reading this, but she is awfully "you used to be my husband, so we must be together regardless of who you are now," which is definitely the kind of second "Eve"-like wife I'd imagine Tess to be.

Also, I'm looking at http://www.silverhandprint.com, and it looks to me from the first page, that the Skins were just here to find the granilith. The exact quote (spelling corrected) is "Must find Royal Four so we can get granilith and go [u]home[/u]."

And one more thought -- they probably sent the Pod Squad to Earth because Earth had neither too primitive nor too advanced a civilization Plus there's the reason that Jor-El sent his son (Kal-el, or Superman) here --the enhanced abilities would make the Pod Squad "supermen" and -women, as well.

Makes me wonder why they didn't just give the ability to incinerate Skins with a thought to Max or Michael. Afraid they'd be *too* powerful, perhaps?

PW/JP - about Lilth - be careful where you look to research her. What I am talking about is the ARCHETYPE of Lilith - that is to say - the "LILITH-figure" that exists in almsot every culture. The archetypal Lilth was banished for using the name of GOD in an argument with God - she considered herself suprior to man and equal with God (you can see the Lilith-archetype in the old children's story - The Fisherman's Wife)

Much has been written in terms of modern feminist theology about how Lilth was a good character, a strong woman - and was unfairly punished because she was liberated woman (hence the Lilth Fair name).
Unfortunately, these same camps look down on Eve as being the "weak, submissive" female.

However - I personally feel that Lilth is a very strong archetype. I dont think that she should be approached in this "feminist way" - but should be looked at in terms of her cross-cultural symbolic meaning - which is negative in EVERY culture.

If you look at Lilth/Eve/Adam in the most basic of terms - Lilth represents a lack of BALANCE. She did not see herself as an equal to Adam - but as his SUPERIOR - not only that - she considered herself to be equal with GOD.
Eve on the other hand - created from Adam's rib - was "bone of his bone, flesh of his flesh". They embodied a BALANCE of male/female. Their union was one of mutual trust, sharing and harmony. They were the original "yin/yang".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

That sort of is like Revelations where a woman (Mary) crushes the snake that is about to devour the world, or something like that.

Either way, Max is the wolf, and Liz is the woman and they can crush the snake together.

Bringing multiple mytholgies together.

Love your posts! Keep up the good work!

But what about the Granolith? From the looks of the crash in Summer of '47, how could the aliens have gotten the granolith off the ship after the crash. Unless it was already here. Can the granolith transport itself to a new location? Or had it existed here before and the aliens came to Earth looking for it, so they could use its power to aid in their war?

What would be the Holy Grail here, the granolith or a royal bloodline of alien DNA interbred with humans for centuries?

Interesting timeline if it really relates to the acutal story. I guess CW had some friends that Nicholas killed? Human maybe?

I don't suppose it would be possible that CW knew Atherton and Nicholas killed him? Or maybe she had a human lover or even had a half human child by him. The timeline would fit with that child being Sheila Hubble. And it would explain that 1970 entry how everyone they loved had to disappear. But it looked like a shapeshifter like Nasedo killed Sheila, so what exactly is going on here?

Gotta get all my computer time in while the darned thing works...

nermal, I like the idea of the granolith transporting itself. Remember when Max wondered if it could hear them?

Shapeshifter...is it really YOU??? :-)
I dont know what was up but FF was really funky all day yesterday - I still seem tohave lost some posts somewhere.
As for the Lilth archetypes - I agree that either the feminist cersion or the traditional version would work - because even with the feminist version you could see Tess having a goal of dominion over Max.
As for the rape - while I have not come across that (and I asked my dh who has a graduate theology degree if he had heard about the rape and he said no - but that this isnt scripture - its folklore - so there may be multiple versions). In the traditional interpretation - I believe - Lilith flat out refuses to have any sexual relations with Adam. Again - this goes back to the basic theme of BALANCE. Lilith represents a relationship out of balance - and Eve represents the yin/yang of harmonious male/female realtionships.
Here are two screencaps from TLV:
Where Max kisses Tess - notice the Crashdown lights in the background "tipped" out of balance.

Now - here is the yin-yang swirl

Now - here is one of many images of Max/Liz - notice how their position and the sweep of her hair mirror the balance of the yin-yang

SF - I replied to you on the symbols board - but i will add that as I have thought about it I agree that Khivar wants the bloodline via. Isabel as well. :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I'm a little confused about some of the things that some of you have been saying so if anyone can clear up some of my confusion, i'd appriciate it.

1. The thing about max deciding the fates of his armies by the "flip of a coin" always struck me as a symbol of his power not arrogance or lack of leadership ability (now granted that he has not shown to be the best of leaders this season, but give him time cause he only found out he was king a few months ago and needs time to adjust to the responsibility). I also think that the current personalities of the Royal Four somehow mirror what they must have been like in their past lives, i.e. Michael shows himself to be hard and a little cold, which would reflect him in his formal life as the warrior that he was. So in fairness to Max, he doesn't seem to be the kind of person/leader who would do that and the proof has been shown since the Pilot. Which now brings me to my second question (2) where is this thing about Max raping his wife coming from?!!! He wouldn't do that in any way, shape, or form so if anyone could clear this up for me, Thanks

The person that was watching Maria and Liz in Wipeout who also is seen watching Max at chool and Nasedo before he dies, is probably Nickolas. He's obviously some kind of special Skin and remember in the journal it said they had probs with their vision in the husks. But it would logically be Nickolas (It's would be nice to have it be Tess cuz I want her to be evil!! ) He was the one who killed Nasedo and he was the one watching everyone. Remember, he's got some kind of powers and something tells me that all those times we saw that POV, the people he was watching couldn't see him. I think he has the ability to be invisable. (As well as invincable!)

Also, I think V constellation stands simply for an arrow, a giude to where the pod chamber was. Maybe it didn't complete a full V until Tess came because they weren't meant to find the chamber until all of the Royal Four were together. BTW, my English teacher has that VVG painting hanging in the back of his classroom and I think it's such a pretty picture!

As for the abomidable Tess, she's got probs and some major issues that I haven't really decided on yet. All I know is that she's hiding something, something major. Maybe she was a member of one of the other races of aliens, a bad one. Either wya, she's gotta go!

Really like the take on the seperate factions Starbox.

Oh my, who do the Podsters trust? My reaction on when we learned of Vilandra & then the Michael-Worshipping-Skins is that it is all part of the Skins plan to divide and conquer... currently I'm unsure of who's stories they should take as valid.

Grace Kell, if your theory on Khivar really being Isabel great (but used by the Skins to keep Isabel away from him) comes true, it's going got make my head !

quote:Originally posted by sunrise:
...1. The thing about max deciding the fates of his armies by the "flip of a coin" always struck me as a symbol of his power not arrogance or lack of leadership ability ...

...Which now brings me to my second question (2) where is this thing about Max raping his wife coming from?!!! He wouldn't do that in any way, shape, or form so if anyone could clear this up for me, Thanks
sunrise, I interpreted Nick's coin comment the same way, but nobody else has. Still according to "shapeshifter's axiom," if 2 or more come up with the idea, then it might be what the writers intended...or at least a worthwhile concept on some level.

The rape thing has to do with a feminist interpretation of the mythology of Lillith, whom I have only learned about in the last day since it was brought up here (but I also have a daughter who maxed out her SATs to clue me in). So, since Tess's ring (is that right, guys?) and book have Lillith symbols, and since Lillith was the scorned (and scornful) first wife of Adam in these extra-Biblical writings, then Max would be a type of Adam. So, that's where that discussion comes from.

Someone mentioned this on the ORBS thread, so thought I'd just pass it along...
FYI: everyone who experienced the Wipe Out yesterday and lost s/posts-- check, out over on the FF FAQ, the new thread thats been started for people to sign up. Hopefully it'll help to get them back!

The granolith, is something of tremendous power that the Skins are trying to get ahold of. I think that the granolith was sent to Earth in the Podsters' chamber, so they could guard it & have it in safe keeping--- sort of to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.

Someone mentioned on another thread (sorry forgot who) that the symbol, on the alien necklace/on one of the orbs, resembles two hands around a triangular symbol that might possibly represent the granolith.

Now what if the one "hand" enclosing most of the granolith symbol is the one who has the granolith & is in charge = Max... and the smaller "hand" is Liz (also it's her finger pointing to the orb itself, when it lights up), who completes the circle surrounding the symbol & thus protecting the granolith.

Plus as a result of EOTW, she is the only one that as any idea what the granolith is capable of, makes me go hmmmm...

In the Sexual Healing episode Liz has a flash of a star and asks her teacher about it, he says something about dying star, red giant, the light wouldn't be seen from the earth.

All planets are stars and if as we have learned there was a war on Max's planet, could it be possible that by some alien/skin forces (like war heads, H-bombs better yet CadmiumX-bombs) the planet was changed causing it to begin the process and means to its end. If so it could be a matter of time before the planet and its inhabitants are consumed and die. The MOMogram (if it was real and not a Tess mind warp) pleaded to 'Save us'.

Tie in the granolith and its importance to the Skins. The Skins could have caused a grave amount of damage and not only could they need the granolith to save themselves, but also their entire race and existence on the planet. Also, the granolith may hold the only transportation means of returning to the planet.

Liz's passion for science and her flashes is what actually gave way to finding the orb, Pierce's bones (uni test for CadX). Liz is the only person or alien on the good side who has any clue what the can granolith do. It would seem that for the Royal 4 to advance in knowledge, keep their secret and survive, they need Liz and her flashes.

I know this is a bit far fetched but I thought I would put it out

Here's the page I got the rape thing from:
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/humm/Topics/Lilith/lilIsisGylu.html (at least, I've always interpreted "Adam tried to force her" as a rape attempt).

Of course, I was looking specifically for the tale of Lillith as Adam's first wife for a Dark Shadows fanfic I'm writing (anyone here familiar with DS?). Speaking of that fanfic, I can give you a link to the Pseudepigrapha (which, among other information, gives the names of Adam's daughters) if you need one.

You're right. The marking on the orb thing does look like the yin/yang symbol. My dh is taking the Yang form of Tai Chi Chuan from a man who learned from it directly from a member of the Yang family, so we've been discussing Asian philosophy for a while now. He says that the current philosophy, from what he's read, is that the black and white portions of the symbol represent opposites, but the circle represents a third force keeping the other two in balance.

We were discussing it in terms of Roswell today (see what you people've done to me? ), and he said that he wonders if originally (as in before Tess) one interpretation of the tai chi symbol (its proper name according to his teacher) was Max, Michael and Isabel. Isabel was desperate to just be human, wanting dates, parties, cheerleading, family, etc. Michael was desperate *not* to be human, searching endlessly for the aliens to take him home. Max kept them in balance.

And I wonder if Kyle will be the first to notice the resemblance between that marking and the yin/yang symbol?

Barbara

You're right. The marking on the orb thing does look like the yin/yang symbol. My dh is taking the Yang form of Tai Chi Chuan from a man who learned from it directly from a member of the Yang family, so we've been discussing Asian philosophy for a while now. He says that the current philosophy, from what he's read, is that the black and white portions of the symbol represent opposites, but the circle represents a third force keeping the other two in balance.

Barbara[/B]

PW - I believe that the yin-yang represents the union of Max/Liz. The harmonious connection of the two opposite sides (yin and yang) that balance each other.
Almost all of the symbolism that surrounds Max and Liz trace back to also representing yin-yang - just as almost all the EA symbols represent a LACK of balance.

Interesting about your husband and Asian philosophy. I will admit to knowing next to nothing about Buddhism - but look at these images:


I looked it up to be sure and I am almost sure that this is indeed a statue of Buddha.
It really seems to be connected to Liz in terms of a symbol - you can see this esp in the screencap of her and Tess in front of the window. But I am not sure what this means - any idea from those of you who know more about Asian philosophy???

Shapeshifter - nice to see you back with stars on your belly :-) and your avatar intact!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Now, we know that the Four Pod Squad members are "recreations" in human form of four members of the royal family of Antar (Or so we are told.) I find it very interesting that Nasedo would have something of that religion in his home, and that Kyle would be attracted to that religion in order to deal with his near-death and "rebirth".

I like to think that there *could* be a clue to a connection there between Liz, the other humans the Pod Squad, and their life before Earth.

Laura

B.

This would fit with the Vilandra story the Skins are telling.

Brutes, Caesar's close & trusted friend, betrayed and helped to kill Caesar, in what he thought was for the benefit of Rome.

In his previous life, Max, was betrayed by Vilandra for Khivar (why, we don't know,yet). Her betrayal resulted in, I guess we are to assume, the death of herself, the Royal Four, and possibly others.

This is based on what Whitaker(sp?) said to Isabel/Vilandra in Surprise "... you betrayed him. You sacrificed him, you sacrificed everyone, even yourself..." (sorry if the quote is a bit off, I'm going from purely memory here )

Hello all...IMHO, I really think that the Granolith is key to whatever is going on in Twilo. It seems fairly obvious that it was sent down with the podsters to keep it from winding up in the hands of the enemy. Maybe it was sent later -- maybe it was sent before.

It probably has something to do with the 'balance'. Remember the healing stones? What if, the Granolith was like a bigger, more powerful version of the stones? It seemed that if the podsters (and HUMANS! for that matter) focused their energy using the stones, they were able to bring the balance back into alignment. Maybe the Granolith is the key to the 'balance'.

It seems that the Granolith has the potential to serve a wide variety of purposes -- given the fact that it is a tremendous source of power/energy. It's been speculated before on this board that the podsters weren't able to heal Nacedo the last time because Liz wasn't present. What if on earth, Liz and/or the other human's energy is needed to utilize the Granolith on earth? What if the climate on earth has somehow affected the Granolith? So far, we have only seen the Granlith in action once. And who was there? Liz and Max. BTW, is it important that Tess is responsible for showing the other podsters the pod chamber --leading them to the discovery of the Granolith?

Hmmmm...another theory to ponder. As usual, there are so many unanswered questions!!

Regarding silverhandprint.com. Does anyone hear echoes of the Blair Witch happening here? It was so brilliant how Miramax used the website prior to the release of the film to give background history and build a huge buzz in general...I get the sense that TPTB are using this website in the same way...And, while I'm on this rant -- does anyone else wonder what the other two symbols stand for on that page? It's obvious the skins section is called UFL (United Friendship League)...what do the other two stand for? Does this kind of confirm the three different factions theory? The silver handprint could represent our podsters..

Ranting. Sorry. I type 100 words a minute so it's easy to get carried away.

Thanks for listening!

{~}:}

About owls: there is something very disconcerting about a very large owl nearby in a tree when you are all alone. I am sure that's where the bad press comes from--and they are predators (poor little s). Anyway, I'm sure they'd like to see this over on the signs & symbols too, or would it fit in with the Joseph Campbell hero's quest thread in some way?

I have a question regarding the skins. From my understanding there was some sort of a civil war on planet Twilo between the podsters and the skins. The skins won (with help from Vilandra) and killed the podsters thus taking over control of the planet.

The podsters essence was duplicated and sent to earth in the pods in order to live again so that they could find a way to come back and save their planet.

First question: Why did the skins come to earth? If they had already won the war, what do they care about these kids on earth?

Second question: Why would they choose a planet that was so far behind (technologically) than their current planet? Wouldn't they go somewhere that could offer them the answers more quickly and easily?

I am interested in your responses, but am hoping that they came to this planet because..you guessed it...the key (Liz) is here.

Have a wonderful night!!

I looked it up to be sure and I am almost sure that this is indeed a statue of Buddha.
It really seems to be connected to Liz in terms of a symbol - you can see this esp in the screencap of her and Tess in front of the window. But I am not sure what this means - any idea from those of you who know more about Asian philosophy???

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

It is INDEED a statue of Buddha. The Buddha was not interested in satisfying human curiousity about the origin of the world, the nature of the Divine, or similar questions. He was concerned exclusively with the human situation, with the suffering and frustrations of human beings. His doctrine pointed out the origin of human frustrations and the way to overcome them, taking up for this purpose the traditional Indian concepts of maya, karma, nirvana, etc.

According to Buddhist tradition, the Buddha went to the Deer Park of Benares immediately after his awakening to preach his doctrine to his former fellow hermits. He expressed it in the celebrated form of the Four Noble Truths, a compact presentation of the essential doctrine which is not unlike the statement of a physician, who first identifies the cause of humanity's sickness, then affirms that the sickness can be cured, and finally prescribes the remedy.

The first Noble Truth states the outstanding characteristic of the human situation, duhkha, which is suffering or frustration. This frustration comes from our difficulty in facing the basic fact of life, that everything around us is impermanent and transitory. "All Things Arise and Pass Away", said the Buddha, and the notion that flow and change are basic features of natures lies at the root of Buddhism. Suffering arises, in the Buddhist view, whenever we resist the flow of life and try to cling to fixed forms which are all maya, whether they are things, events, people or ideas.

The second noble truth deals with the cause of all suffering, trishna, which is clinging, or grasping. (Tess? LOL) It is the futule grasping of life based on a wrong point of view which is called avidya or ignorance, in Buddhist philosophy. Out of this ignorance, we divide the perceived world into indifidual and separate things and thus attempt to confine the fluid forms of reality in fixed categories created by the mind. As long as this view prevails, we are bound to experience frustration after frustration.

The Third Noble Truth states that the suffering and frustration can be ended. It is possible to transcend the vicious circle of samsara, to free oneself from the bondage of karma, and to reach a state of total liberation called nirvana. In this state, the false notions of a separate self have for ever disappeared and the oneness of all life has become a constant sensation.

The Fourth Noble Truth is the Buddh'as prescription to end all suffering, the Eightfold Path of self-development which leads to the state of Buddhahood. The first two sections of this path have already been mentioned, are concerned with right seeing and right knowing, that is with the clear insight into the human situation that is the necessary starting point. The next four sections deal with right action. They give the rules for the Buddhist way of life, which is a Middle Way between opposite extremes. The last two sections are concerned with Right awareness and right meditation and describe the direct mystical experience of reality that is the final goal.

The Buddha did not develop his doctrine into a consistent philosophical system, but regarded it as a means to acheive enlightenment. His statements about the world were confided to emphasizing the impermanence of all'things'. He insisted on freedome from spiritual authority, including his own, saying that he could only show the way to Buddhahood, and this it was up to every individual to tread this way to the end through his or her own efforts. The Buddha's last word on this deathbed are characteristic of his world view and of his attitude as a teacher. 'Decay is inherent in all compounded things,' he said before passing away; 'Strive on with Dilligence.'

Hope this information helps...there is a ton of information out there if any of you are interested..

`When you can do nothing.What can you do? `

`What is the color of wind? `

{~}:}

just my rambling thoughts.

Now, we know that the Four Pod Squad members are "recreations" in human form of four members of the royal family of Antar (Or so we are told.) I find it very interesting that Nasedo would have something of that religion in his home, and that Kyle would be attracted to that religion in order to deal with his near-death and "rebirth".

I like to think that there *could* be a clue to a connection there between Liz, the other humans the Pod Squad, and their life before Earth.

Laura

How did you come up with the name Antar for the planet. Is that from the books or am I missing something?

Antar is the name that has been going around for some time on the spoiler board, which I read avidly. I apologize if that is either not the true name, or not yet common knowledge.

Laura

so are the other symbols at the silverhandprint.com supposed to be clicked on. I only asked cause it didn't work for me.

When I first came to this board aroudn thread #4 I thought that the podsters had come to earth to try and protect Earth because they failed on their own planet. And that each podster had to find thier human cournter part. I think I still maintain this theory a little. That Max was to find his human equal to bring together both races from evil aliens and save both races.

I don't remember anything about the planet's name other then the one we all use (Twilo). This may be considered a spoiler or something.

I shall believe!

I was going to say something about Twilo, but figured y'all'd already discussed that to death. Guess I shoulda read the past threads.

I can't shake the image of a Max/Liz reenactment of the Rob/Laura scene where Laura revealed herself to be Lolac of the planet Twilo.

"I see-e-e-e yo-o-o-o-u!"

Probably not C. S. Lewis -- not his "science fiction" (Mars/Venus/Earth) trilogy, anyway. The only mention of Antar that I remember is in connection with Rimsky-Korsakov's Symphony #2. Notes from an old recording (Melodiya SR-40230) include the following:
"In Arabia before the birth of Mohammed lived a handsome warrior poet named Antar. Born the son of a slave, he rose, by virtue of courage, skill and a noble heart, to become a powerful Bedouin chief. Many an Arabian romance celebrates Antar's bravery and generosity to his people...."

i think that those orb are not just communicators. there's something about them. how else will something be beaming such bright lights. maybe if it was place together but the podsters and the 5th element, liz, w/ liz in the middle (like the v constellation) it could mesh torgher or break apart to form that crystal that operates the granolith.

This is how the number 2 is defined with in the constellations. It has to do with the need to balance the 2 elements of being into wholeness: Masculine and feminine, yin and yang, positive and negative. In essence it boils down to the internal connection of you and I, together: A signal of the basic Aquarian impulse of "we" instead of "me." It brings up the image of Noah and his arc in the face of the flood, loading up two by two. A return to union is the Aquarian Grail -- with ourselves, with God, and each other.

So what so you think? Are these clues starting to fit together? It looks to me like Max has already choosen Liz. I think this also means that Max was commiting himself to Liz in frount of her father, almost like asking for her hand.
Oh how wonderful WAS this show, please Mr Katims give us your magic touch once again, I do miss it so very much.

Liz please wait. ~Max~
Evid

{~}:}[/B]

Actually - I believe it was MAX who found the chamber. He was with Tess at the time - but it was him who knew where to go/how to open the chamber. He took Tess to the pod chamber to "interrogate her" and then "knew" where the pod chamber was. As for the flashes he had - we dont know if they were Tess manipulations, true memories or the result of him "sensing" and responding to being so close to the granolith. I personally think it was combination - I think that the TESS memories were "planted" (they differ so vastly from the Balance visions) - but that the fact that he knew where the pod chamber was was internal to Max/the granolith.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

UNC - great catch on the owl/Ceaser connection. I can see a parallel not just in Max/Ceaser but in the Michael/Marc Antony connection. Veeeeery Interesting :-)

Metaphysical (and HyperKitn on the granolith) - LOVED your posts! You had some great ideas about the granolith! ITA that the granolith could be what is needed to save Twilo and that it was sent to keep it from falling into the wrong hands. And the idea that it serves a purpose of "balance" is excellent.

And ITA that the silverhandprint.com three symbols may correspond to our three factions.
I am still not sure if I think this is official or not??? Anyone have a definitive answer?? If it is WB owned but it is not being written with the help of teh Roswell writers (i.e Dawsons Desktop is) - then I dont think we can "use" it in terms of furthering mythology.

Also - thanks for the info on Buddha - VERY cool - and I know I could see LOTS of ROSWELL overtones there.

Shapeshifter and Nemo - great stuff on ANTAR (and nice to see an allusin to max being a GOOD, BENEVOLENT leader after hearing all the crap the enemy has had to say about him lately.

Evid - LOVE the stuff on the number two - there we go with the YIN YANG again. :-)

Had a dream last night that I mailed JK a baby doll with a note that said "I found this - it appears to have been tossed out with the bathwater - thought you might need it back"
<Sigh> I miss Max and Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Just a little off the subject , but about the orbs. Everyone has so many complex theories about the symbol on the ord. HAs anyone thought that maybe it is a calling card. I was looking through an astronomy book the other day and came across a picture(wish i had it to show) of the Andromeda galaxy. Pictured at the angle which it was taken in space, it has a similiar appearance to the symbol on the orb. This galaxy, like the Milky Way is known as a spiral galaxy. An energy source in the middle( a star ), and all other elements spiral around it.
MAybe this is where all the aliens are from.

Just another thought again. great intro Zero. gotta go

These inconsistencies in Max and Tess's memories need to be addressed, one of these memories are wrong. Unless the writers made a serious debacle, by not reviewing the previous episodes that showed what happened when Izzyt, Michael and Max came out of the pods. Before they decided to create the 4th alien Tess. But I don't believe that, there's definitely more to Tess than her trying to be the devoted young bride!! Pleeeeze!!!

I don't believe Liz is part alien. However, I do believe she's the key to the pod squads survival and them winning the war on Earth as well as Antar. The connection between Max and Liz proves this. The connection stems from the fact that Max is half human. Whomever Max's human DNA came from, I believe, will explain his attraction to Liz. Maybe his human side came from a person who was in love with an ancestor of Liz's: perhaps it could've been Grandpa Parker (whom we've heard nothing about) or a love Grandma Claudia has never mentioned. Max's attraction to Liz is not an attraction one would have to a family member, but an attraction one would have to a soul mate. Max even told Liz "I look at you and I know you're the person I'm supposed to be with, I've always known it (Tess,Lies,Videotape)" This is true, even when he first saw her, the day he got off that school bus. He knew. Not to mention the years he's spent watching and pining for her, years leading up to that day Liz was shot in the Crashdown: Max has been completely mezmerized by Liz. And the attraction is nothing like the forced, attraction he has to Tess. His attraction to Liz is natural, apart of who he is, it has been since day one. I believe that Max's love and attraction for Liz is a huge part of his essence. This is definitely because of his human DNA. Human DNA that could possibly be from the soul mate of Grandma Claudia or perhaps an ancestor from further back, or like someone suggested earlier, humans might've resided on Antar. Perhaps an ancestor of Liz. Maybe even the true love of Max. The people on Antar had one plan, for the podsquad to continue there destiny on Earth, but when they cloned them with human DNA, I believe that destiny completely changed. It would interesting if the writers took us back, showed us how and who did the people of Antar use to clone the Royal Four. They had to work with humans to complete this task. Therefore connecting the Royal four and humans -Max to Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Saw this and gave a hoot. What a great idea. I miss Max together lovingly with Liz too. This might be more powerful than tobasco.Rox

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Hey Starbox! Thanks for the info...I have a TERRIBLE memory for details, and I don't have any of those episodes on tape. I'm glad that I was wrong! Maybe Tess wasn't that important to them finding the chamber and the Granolith. (note to self: get all of first season on tape!)...

I still think that the Granolith is the key. Did anyone else notice in EOTW that FL and FM entered into the Granolith chamber through one door and you can kind of see another whole room on the other side? What if they discover that the pod chamber is actually a space ship that can take them home? It kind of looked to me like there was more to the chamber then we had previously been shown...(I could be wrong but I really think I saw that!)

The skins need to find the Granolith before they can go home. Is it because the Granolith is the technology that would get them home, or is it because they were told that they cannot return without it? If the Granolith is just part of the alien technology and nothing special in and of itself, why wouldn't the skins have brought their own so they could go home when they wanted to? Maybe Khivar doesn't need a royal heir to be considered the true leader of Antwar. Maybe he needs the Granolith...which is why the Queen sent it back with the podsters.

As always, so many questions - not enough answers!!

Thanks for listening!

{~}:}

I'm voting for Grant on this one. At least, he's a hottie and I wouldn't MIND seeing Iz and Grant "hook up". Then again.. I never seem to get what I want, so won't hold my breath on this. Heck.. at least I don't have to watch T and Max (yet)!

I agree!

Anyone know where I can find out some information about Buddism and the such? Again, sorry if we've beaten this subject to death and I missed it, but.. we'll I'm NOT perfect (contrary to popular belief )

Anyone know where I can find out some information about Buddism and the such? Again, sorry if we've beaten this subject to death and I missed it, but.. we'll I'm NOT perfect (contrary to popular belief )

Hey there...check out page 4 of this thread for some information I posted on Buddhism. Here is some more, taken from Tricycle magazine (great Buddhist magazine) on the life of the Buddha...

The Life of the Buddha

Siddartha Gautama was born in the sixth century BCE in what is now Nepal. His father, Suddhodana, was the ruler of the Sakya people, and Siddartha grew up living the extravagant life of a young prince. Tradition tells us that Suddhodana had feared that the prince might leave the palace to take up the life of a religious wanderer. So he arranged for him to be sheltered from all the harsh realities of life. When the prince reached the age of sixteen, Suddhodana arranged for him to be married to his cousin, a charming princess named Yasodhara.

One day, however, Siddartha ventured out into the world and was confronted with the inevitability of aging, illness, and death. Overcome by dismay, the young prince wondered if there might be a happiness that was not subject to change and decay. Then, seeing a forest wanderer, he decided that only by taking up the wilderness life could he find the answer to his question. That night, at the age of twenty-nine, he left his kingdom and newborn son and entered the wilderness.

For six years, Siddartha submitted himself to rigorous ascetic practices. First he studied with different religious teachers, but, dissatisfied with what they saw as their highest goal, he set out to practice extreme physical austerities on his own. Yet even through the ultimate in self-denial, he did not reach his goal. Then one day he remembered a state of calm mental absorption he had experienced while sitting under a tree as a child, and realized that only through such a state of calm could liberation be found. And yet the strength of that calm could not be reached when the body was weak through austerities. The path to true happiness required balance—the middle way—rather than extremes of indulgence or self-denial. So on that day he ended his extreme austerities and and accepted a gift of milk-rice offered to him by a young woman.

That night Siddartha sat under the bodhi tree and meditated until dawn. In the first watch of the night he remembered his past lives; in the second watch, around midnight, he saw how beings die and are reborn through the power of their karma, which in turn was shaped by the skillfulness of their intentions; in the third watch, toward dawn, he purified his mind of all cravings, attachments, and defilements, and finally of all intentions, both skillful and not. With that, he attained awakening at the age of thirty-five, thus earning the title Buddha, or "Awakened One."

For the remainder of his life, the Buddha taught the dharma to others—men, women, and children; rich and poor; people from all walks of life and all levels of society—so that they, too, might attain awakening. He established a sangha, or community of monks and nuns, to maintain his teachings after his death. Then, one full moon night in May when he had reached the age of eighty, he lay down between two trees in a forest park and gave his last teachings to the assembled followers, counseling them to be heedful in completing their practice of the dharma. With that, he entered total nirvana.

Wow! Thanks for the information!

I found this paragraph VERY interesting in coorelation with our Run Lola Run theory, as well as many "keywords" you/Buddism encorporates.

The Run Lola Run theory is somewhat obvious in the mention of "three attempts", just like in the movie, just like we speculate with Liz and the Liz/Max connection (three time's a charm idea).

The keywords "past lives" in the first attempt obviously goes along with the fact that M/Mi/Iz and T are recreations of those that lived in the past.

Could it be the keywords "beings die and are reborn" in the second attempt runs in correlation with the attempt on Liz's life. This being the second time around for Liz and going along with the theory of the shooters being sent to kill Liz. Yet Liz was healed "through the power of the kharma" (Max)??

Thirdly, could the third attempt symbolize Max's quest for a better future. A way to rid himself of all the past errors and "create his own destiny" by riding himself of all attachments, etc.? The way FM mentioned to Liz that she now "creates her own destiny"??

The simulations are remarkable and CAN'T be coincidence, could they!?

This is Isabel in Max's connection with Liz on the Pilot. Notice the hair?

This was in Foursquare. I do belive this is Tess-a-vision. You also see that she is covering her eyes from the sunlight, again Max told Liz in Balance that the moon in stars were out.

As you can see pictures speak louder then words. I just hope the writers don't try to push the first season aside. They seem to want Tess around to show her wares, to bring in male viewers.

StarBox I'm with you, I think it's about time we hit Toys-r-us and buy a baby doll for Mr Katims, we should remind him of his famous last words.We would never toss out the baby with the bathwater.Are you a man of your word Mr Katims?
If any of you are wondering what this is all about, Mr Katims compared Max and Liz's relationship to the baby.

Evid

This was in Foursquare. I do belive this is Tess-a-vision. You also see that she is covering her eyes from the sunlight, again Max told Liz in Balance that the moon in stars were out.

As you can see pictures speak louder then words. I just hope the writers don't try to push the first season aside. They seem to want Tess around to show her wares, to bring in male viewers.

Wow! When you place the two images next to each other you can really see the differences. The question IS was it intentional!?

I certainly hope so and hopefully, we'll get some answers sometime soon!

I certainly hope so and hopefully, we'll get some answers sometime soon! [/B]

I must preface this comment by saying I am horrible at remembering the small details, and I do not have these season one episodes on tape...

That said, isn't the first picture on top supposed to be Iz and the second one on the bottom supposed to be Tess coming out of the Pods? I kind of remember Max seeing Tess come out of the pods in the vision. This would also explain the sunlight, as Tess did not come out at the same time as the others.

{~}:}

That said, isn't the first picture on top supposed to be Iz and the second one on the bottom supposed to be Tess coming out of the Pods? I kind of remember Max seeing Tess come out of the pods in the vision. This would also explain the sunlight, as Tess did not come out at the same time as the others.

{~}:}

I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think so. I think the whole deal is that M/Mi/I didn't see T come out of the Pod - otherwise, they would have taken her with them (in theory). I know Max had flashes about seeing T IN the Pod, but as far as I know.. never coming out.

I think these are both supposed to be Iz - just one from Liz's flash and one from a Max Flash (T projection??). I just hope it's not simply the writers using a different actress and we're not supposed to notice (kind of like Pa Evans)

Yes in the first picture her hair is shorter and then in the 2nd it's longer... but this could simply be due to the length of time between filming the two episodes, as it appears to be the same child.

Evid

THANK YOU EVID!!!!!
I thought I was the ONLY one that noticed that Tess had Mrs. Evan's show her the PHOTO ALBUMS!!!!!!!!!!!!
As soon as I saw the "tess-o-vision" of the pod chamber I was like "of course she wanted to see the pictures so she could know what images to plant!!!!!. There is no way on earth that that was just a coincidence.
And I agree - that little girl is Isabel - the "TESS" little girl had a round face and ringlets when we saw her in the pod.

And I am with you - I dont get how everyone seems to just be buying into the fact that Tess is the real deal. Remember AFTER Max kissed her - he STILL thought she was evil and a shapeshifter. I trust Max's intuition. I just wish he trusted it a little more - but maybe - as you say - he is smarter than he is appearing to be.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Yes in the first picture her hair is shorter and then in the 2nd it's longer... but this could simply be due to the length of time between filming the two episodes, as it appears to be the same child.[/B]

Wishful - the two episodes were shot not more than 6 months apart - I have a two year old daughter and hair does NOT grow that fast unless you are Maria - hey - MAYBE its a clue that this is MARIA!!!! She is the fourth alien - thats why her hair grows so fast!!!
(sorry - couldnt resist :-)

**StarBox**
mytholigist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mytholigist, dreamer

Sorry, didn't know the timeframe of when the episodes were filmed... would be nice to be able to grow your hair that fast though-- when you wanted it to of course!

**StarBox**
mytholigist, dreamer

Here are Isabel and Max together coming out of the pods.

Here is Tess in the pod

How do you explain the hair??? In the picture Ms. Evans showed Tess - Isabel was a year older. Tess is just COPYING the picture she saw!!!!!!!

**StarBox**
mytholigist, dreamer

**StarBox**
mytholigist, dreamer

Plus, I also have to think that the writers would make the actress cut her hair to fit the part, don't you? I mean, it's SUPPOSED to be the same time even if it was shot 2 years apart in real life. That make sense?

Hmm... I had another thought about that episode. When Max and Liz follow T to the library, T pulls "the book" from the wall - why not just show Max the book?

Why the big drawn out drama about "the book" and "Kyle" and "who is she?" if she's legit? After all, she eventual just sneaks into Max's bedroom and "talks him into" coming with her!

Also, found some different caps of the V shape. Interesting how many there are!

Starbox: You are so right, their are far to many differences in the visions for them not to be intentional by the writers.

My family thinks that I have a sixth sense. Because I can solve a mystery at the drop of a hat. My son hates to watch mysteries with me because I tell him what's going to happen, shortly into the movie. So he had this idea for me to write things down, so he could see if I was right once the movie was over, and I could keep mouth shut. He then looks at my note and his mouth drops open every time. By the way, I knew the docter was a ghost on the Sixth Sense, after the first clip, to easy.
I think I just always have a clear perception of truth, as so many others do on this thread. I feel like I have a connection with posters on this thread. For now this forum is what has kept me watching the show, I don't like the new season much at all, but I love reading and sharing theories with all of you.
Now I don't know why I told you all that, I guess I just felt like chating with some great people, plus I get like this for the Holidays.

One more thing. I have posted this before but this might be new to some of you.
Now how please tell me did Tess get her hand in the wall? Does shape shifting come to mind? You decide. GraceKel discovered this, what do you get with the letters of her name TESS (THE EVIL SHAPE SHIFTER).

Evid

Evid -Awesome job on the 2s theory!! I also agree with you as far as 'don't trust Tess' motif, I do think there stuff she's hiding, cause I noticed that the memories of her in Max's, Iz's, and Michael's memories didn't come until she arrived and they were always at her insistance (i.e. "you've seen me before" and "you remember..."); make any sense?

Starbox -you asked if silverhandprint.com was made with the help of the writers, while I don't know the actual answer to that it would make sense if they were cause it would explain why the other symbols on the site wouldn't open. Maybe as the season(s) progress and more enemies are revealed other diaries or something will pop up.

Metaphysicalgrl -I noticed the other door too!! It seemed to me like it was on the opposite side of the first door. Did you notice when FM and FL ran in there were these explosions and other stuff? Maybe it's just me, Oh look at that there goes my imagination (maybe not)

Dayneen -I'm glad you addressed the differences in the memories of the pod squad coming out of their...pods. I think that just furthers our belief that Tess is hiding something. Also, you wrote how maybe podsters and humans might've lived on twilo in order to recreate the royals, BUT I don't see how cause looking at CW diaries at silverhandprint.com she said that our star (sun) was to close to our planet - meaning, perhaps, that their star was not as close; so how could humans live on a planet like that unless they're a different subspecies of humans. It's a nice theory, but...

Also, I just wanted to point out, and I apologize ahead of time if someone has already mentioned this, another possible reason why the skins might want the granilith: is it possible that they know that the granilith can be also a time machine and would want it to go back in time to kill the podsters before they come out or whatever. Is that making sense? I mean, afterall their technology is very advanced so they might know how to do it know, even though it took Liz and Serena(?) 14 years to figure it out.

Sorry for the last ramble

Laura
The common and customary name used here for the podster's home planet is "Twilo", derived from an episode of the Dick van Dyke Show. We are scupulously spoiler-free here; it makes things more accurate, as well as fun. Many have reported that the "spoilers" are in fact wrong or misleading. Either way, avoiding using "spoiled" info in discussions here may be difficult, but not impossible.

Remember,
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

Evid

I'm so curious about this whole scene. What was the point? how did she do it? Why did she do it? Why ahsn't asked her about WHAT that was all about - the powers of "pulling the book"? I know they can reshape molecular structures, but.. where was the book? On the other side of the wall? I say.. maybe it was an T - O - Vision! MAYBE there really ISN'T a book and she just *zoomed* it into their minds so that her story was more convincing.. why hasn't anyone asked about this so called book lately. Too busy killing Skins, no doubt!

Just a random thought.

I know! Those whole Tess scenes drove me crazy! The blatant & constant 'dangling a carrot infront of Max' to follow drove me nuts and found unnecissary, even if at the start Tess was unsure of who they were.

Anyway I digress , I ment to reply to the how did she get the book out of the wall? As far as I remember she did the 'hand wave' infront of the wall, reached into it, pulled the book out, and 'waved' her hand over the wall again to return it to normal.

What I'd like to know is if that scene was real and not a Tess-o-vision, who put the book there in the first place, why, and how did Tess know it was there?

The more we find out, the more we don't know.

Okay, after reading the whole of thread #17, I understand who Lilith is.

I have a few q's, since you all are so knowledgable, and also I have missed a lot of the season 1 episodes.

First of all, in Into the Woods, there is a flash, like when FM landed. If that is Nasedo, who raised Tess? If that wasn't Nasedo, who was it?

And who are Stella Hubble and Harding?

I hope the writers are reading this thread, far-fetched as that may be. Often those standing outside of a story can see the big picture more readily than those writing it.

Finally, at the end of the last episode, isn't it Nicholas who goes by Tess and Max on the scooter? And if so, how did he survive the "fire" that killed (?) the rest of the skins? I didn't think so at first, but now I have little other choice than to believe that for some reason Tess is giving brain-burps to the Pod Squad, of which I doubt she is one. The question is why?

Any thoughts?

as for iz when she came out of the pods...they just changed the little girl who played her. the girl that played little isabel in the pilot and the balance is not the same girl that was in four square. and we know that it's been done before with max and iz's father (different actors), so i wasn't even surprised when they changed the little girl either.

sorry if it doesn't make sense,
irina

YOu guys also remember how Isabel didn't not believe the vision she saw when she first went into the pod chamber. She then left it promtly.

Also Nasedo could have implanted those images along w/Tess since he was in the wall of the pod chamber.

And why wouldn't Tess want to use her new mind warping power again. Both Michael and Isabel have killed not to mention Kyle and Tess killed aliens, why wouldn't she want to use her growing power to save them again. I don't say she is not the real deal,but I know she has to be bad. There is no reaso. for here to be scared to do it again other then the fact that she is bad. Sorry, becoming real redundant in this statement. But I just watched WO again and she is still fishy. Tess even stopped at the bottom of the stairs and stared at Maria in the UFO center right before the Skin attacked Maria. Could she have been using her power there to keep maria away from something else that might have been going on.

Also someone mentioned something about Courtney leaving. I think she left to go to the Granilith to heal herself. But obviously she didn't make it.

And the visions Max saw from Nicholas' mind rape I think were just directions to the granilith and not what Liz was thinking in her head. Just think that is kinda grasping at too much for their connection. Especially considering that Max is kinda not sure about her previous actions right now.

TGIM

SS-thanx for the clarification. I knew about Twilo already though. I just didn't want anyone to get upset about the Antar thing. Cause I heard that on some spoilers too.

Evid, about Max changing the Ace to a 2: Wouldn't you say that essentially is what FM did again when he allowed Liz to "sleep" with Kyle to protect the alien identities and, ultimately, lives?

Evid, about Max changing the Ace to a 2: Wouldn't you say that essentially is what FM did again when he allowed Liz to "sleep" with Kyle to protect the alien identities and, ultimately, lives?

was directed at evid, but could you explain, please? i'm sort of new to this thread.

thanks, irina

Anyone know where I can find out some information about Buddism and the such? Again, sorry if we've beaten this subject to death and I missed it, but.. we'll I'm NOT perfect (contrary to popular belief )

I think Liz is the last person you would want to connect with Buddha, seeing as she knocked him over and broke him into little tiny bits.

Interestingly enough, Tess did put Buddha back together again. Better than new.

Kyle-- if I were you, I'd watch out for Liz.

StarBox: Who has accepted Tess? Who? Nobody I know likes her, wants her, appreciates her! I think you should give us collective credit because we are all as smart as Miss Liz is: "we just don't trust her!". And you don't want to start me on that because I won't be finished if you give me 10 additional pages to write all the bad/wrong things with the gerbil!

I think, if Tess didn't use her mindwarp, the book may have been hidden in an alternate universe/time continuum differential. We have had proof of its existence many times already in the Roswell Universe (handprint on Liz's stomach reversed, dead Nacero reversed, etc. showing change in continuum, etc.).

Yes, there were explosions when Future Max and Future Liz entered the Granolith chamber. Strange since I assumed the war will consist only of "mind destruction".

Irishka75: We really don't know who the SS really are, do we? I've had a suspicion they are really only mercenaries, hired for one particular task and that's it. Any other role in the "war" doesn't make sense because Nacero never lifted a finger to help them, inform them, assist them, improve them. Only protect them. So.. until we know better, I don't think they are that important in the war (unless it is for warring purposes, of course!).

Also, I have heard many people say if Tess is a Skin, why didn't she tell them where the Granolith is? Easy. Because they don't have the Crystal "Superman" probe to activate it or maybe only Max (and/or Liz?) can find it / activate it? Let's not forget Nicholas is alive and well after Tess's incredible prowess at exterminating all of them! HA!! If she is not in cahoots with them, then I don't know my Roswell and I don't know what evil is! (and believe me, SHE IS!).

One last thing and I promise I'll stop: Hyperkitn: True love does not stop because the loved one has hurt you. If that was the case, we wouldn't have a need for the zillion shelters where women hide every night all over the world! There wouldn't be any crimes of passion, there wouldn't be any need for psychiatrists! Regardless of what Liz did (or didn't do), there is one unchangeable thing here: Max loves her. Period, no discussion, that's it. In his mind and in his soul and in his heart, regardless of whatever he may see, she is still and foremost the most important person in the world for him. Of course that's what's going to be first thing in his mind. The connection was there, is there and.. guess what? it'll still be there tomorrow and the day after! No, what Nicholas saw was not the road to Agua Dulce. He saw the last thing Liz saw on her way to the sign!

Hyper I think anything is possible with the orbs. I feel that I solved a lot of the logical holes (along with RBI vets GraceKel and shapeshifter) with the switched orb theory last season.

Which can be viewed at http://www.ulink.net/plum/Various/desktopWebR2Pub.htm

Yes that's Buddha! My father thinks he's Japanese and he also studied Tai Chi so if anyone has any questions about Asian culture I can try to help or ask my Asian friends!

PW/JPRules: Are you talking the Jonathan Frid Dark Shadows? I loved that show growing up!

Re: Tess/false memories... If Tess really did plant false memories about the pod chamber in M/I/M's minds, how did she know what Michael looked like as a child? Would we assume she found a childhood picture somewhere or that he was included in the Evans' pictures?

I originally assumed it was simply additional memories awakened with Tess's arrival. But, can anyone think of any other time when a podster remember something new about their pasts when Tess was not present?

Ree99

If they have call waiting, the orbs are probably blinking.

Oh, and it was Tess that took Max to the pod chamber: he didn't even remember that there was one, let alone its location. For that matter, Tess said as much in EOTW.

shapeshifter: Yes, I do think Future Max is now playing that hand once again. Do you remember when he said "you need to play every card you got." GraceKel pointed this out.
Now the question is did this hand change with the future? I guess we will have to wait in see. I wonder if Max and Liz will end up taking a trip to Vegas after all.

Evid

If they have call waiting, the orbs are probably blinking.

Oh, and it was Tess that took Max to the pod chamber: he didn't even remember that there was one, let alone its location. For that matter, Tess said as much in EOTW.
Reggie, I thought it was a rock.

This is OT, but I couldn't resist. It's funny that the grid lines in the computer star map are so dramatically curved. That makes the constellation look huge. (Well, the Roswellian skies are fictional, and this is show biz. Some dramatic license now and then is not going to discontent me.)

In our skies, the triangle formed by the three brightest stars of Aries covers a smaller patch of sky, about the size of Britain on the terrestrial globe. Also, it's close to the equator, no farther north than Roswell is. So the map grid would look more nearly square.

These are a couple of writers posing next to their altered poster of the second season. Do you think they are sending us some hope? They know where Liz belongs.

Evid

I believe that Liz is the 5th element - only she is human/alien. I believe Max awakened the alien within her, and it has been slowly forming. She is not yet even half-alien, explaining why she disappeared in Wipe Out. But since I'm not that good at this sort of thing, I'll leave it at that!

Rachel

PS: Where do you guys find all the information about mythology? I love this stuff, and I'd like to know where you found it! Thank you!

irishka75, Did Evid's post on p.7 explain sufficiently about the ace and 2? I was thinking that Max has shown twice now that he's willing to give up his rightful #1 place and be #2 for the sake of the survival of his people (including Liz). BTW, on Max as a type of Christ, there's a verse in Phillipians that has an interpretation of Jesus giving up His rightful place as God to become Man for the sake of Salvation of the World.

Evid, Just curious, do you know the names of the writers with the Liz-enhanced version of the poster?

Qfanny! I think you have stumbled upon the key to the Buddhism symbolism: Liz broke the Buddha (Kyle's heart), and Tess put it back together again. Also, as Buddha, this may have to be re-Run Lola Runned a few times more yet. (Now I've probably confused irishka again ).

ese,
Thanks for the Antar/Coccoon reference. Isn't Coccoon a time travel movie? So is that why it was on the spoilers, because they referred to the planet by that name before we of the unspoiled ilk had scene TEOTW?

I also distrust Tess... yet, thought it interesting that after seeing the Dupes ep. Dupe Tess seems to be the only one the gang will be able to trust. Can't wait to find out in part II next week!

Qfanny-- I also thought in the Surprise ep., Isabel used one of the orbs in her tossing fit... maybe someone w/the episode on tape can review it to help clear up the matter?

One thing though - in So47 - in the scene with the pods you see 4 coffins lined up. They are NOT the right size for the a fetus - they are the size of the glowy aliens. So there may be other shapeshifters out there.

Okay - the other significant thing was when "Lonnie" was betraying Max (disguised as Isabel) you had the EXACT same chant as they played right before Tess's little firestarter freak out in WO.
I think Lonnie, Rath and Tess are the same beings/side - etc.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox: I have to agree with you, I am totally confused too after watching this show.

Are we going to see some kind of switcharoo with Tess and Ava. They both seem so out of place with their group? Poor Liz i wish she would just Max the truth about everything.

I wish I could write more but I am going to have to sleep on it and try to soak it all in to what just happened on the show.

Chicatron

Starbox: I have to agree with you, I am totally confused too after watching this show.

Are we going to see some kind of switcharoo with Tess and Ava. They both seem so out of place with their group? Poor Liz i wish she would just tell Max the truth about everything.

I wish I could write more but I am going to have to sleep on it and try to soak it all in to what just happened on the show.

Chicatron

Why didn't Tess say anything the whole episode? Was she really even there?

The signals that Brody was following...I can't remember, but did one come from Roswell this time as well?

Would what dup-Michael and dup-Isabel did be considered shape-shifting?

Why did the dupes not concern themselves with the Granalith?

Any thoughts?

m-14

Could it be that the leaking pod actually affected maybe a set of four - causing our NM podsters to not recall some of their former lives or the NY podsters to be such, um, dupes?

You've got a good point on the whole Tess/Ava comparison - did you note that they did not talk to each other at all during Rath's/Max's meeting? Tess was (and maybe still is) "dup"licitous with our RosPods and Ava seems to have a more humane attitude toward what happened to Zan (loved that name, btw).

I'm wondering if the pods for Tess and Ava could have been switched. Could this be why Tess was born/hatched later than the others? Could Harding/Nacedo have switched the Tess/Ava pods? Could he also have been playing guardian to both sets of podsters, thereby telling the NYers about the NMans, giving them the yearbook, etc. (Probably not, but ya know?)

If Ava stays in Roswell as it appears she is going to do, I'm wondering if Liz will trust Ava where she could not trust Tess. Liz seems to have insight into others; it will be really intersting to see how the two interact.

Ree99

Why didn't Tess say anything the whole episode? Was she really even there?

The signals that Brody was following...I can't remember, but did one come from Roswell this time as well?

Would what dup-Michael and dup-Isabel did be considered shape-shifting?

Why did the dupes not concern themselves with the Granalith?

Any thoughts?

m-14
ACK indeed. A two-parter? (At least???) I'm expecting to hear that someone exploded when that final text came onscreen...
Yup. Five (5) planets. Maybe that many species. Probably more than that many factions. Whoooo-boy.
Yes, Tess was there; but she was reacting rather than talking. Some of Emilie's best work is done with the rest of her face. For example, when Michael-2 is threatening Ava, watch Tess's face. She understood the exchange.
One signal came from behind Max's elbow. Probably Roswell. MAX! IF YOU CAN HEAR ME, MOVE TO YOUR RIGHT A LITTLE!
What the dupes of Michael and Isabel did was manipulate matter, which is similar to what the shapeshifters do. Remember in WR, Harding adjusted Michael's clothing into an FBI suit. Here, the dupes were adjusting their hair, and accessories. Maybe some skin, to cover the tatoos. Remember Michael adjusted his fingerprint.
The dupes probably don't know anything about the granolyth. When they go to the summit, it'll probably be one of the things that the Other Side will want... and Max will remember what Liz told him. (How'd she know?)

Any thoughts? Oh, yes. More than make sense... and that's the problem.

Okay if you remember The book she took from the library and gave Max, there we're children pictures of them on the second glimps of the book!!

Ruling families of the FIVE planets eh? This would presumedly answer the dilemma of the "significance of FIVE"... but then we have the royal FOUR? Two of which (proto - Max & Isabel) are presumedly from the same planet/race, arguably? So, it's proto-Max/Isabel on one planet, p-Michael from another and p-Tess from yet another... or are p-Michael/Tess from the same planet? Possibly two of the *stronger* sets of "races" (royals?) united to gang up against the other three planets?

Max/Isabel race + Tess/Michael race = ROYAL FOUR from two different races?

Or were the royals on ONE planet (the central planet of the V-formation? The point)? This "royal planet" intended to be the *balance* between the FIVE planets but - due to errors of the past (possibly caused by the Royals themselves?) - war broke out between the planets?

Momogram didn't seem very plural however...

"You perished in the conflict that enslaves OUR PLANET ... Learn enough to use your skills, your knowledge, your leadership to combat the enemy so that you can come back and free us."

Mom seems like she's only talking about one planet, not five.

Are we to assume Twilo (Antar?) is long gone (due to the resurfacing of the *red giant* and it's apparent destruction)? My knowledge of astronomy is frightfully limited - so please don't laugh me out of here, wouldn't this have happened a VERY long time ago for it to be seen or made aware of via Earth telescopes / satellites? This red giant is presumedly several hundreds of light years away... the star's light (or lack thereof) only just now becomes evident to Earthlings? If this is the case, then Antar has died, possibly been destroyed, LONG ago? If this is the case, then what are we to make of Momogram? The Royals are to return to a planet that no longer exists (depending on when Momogram was recorded... if it indeed was a recording)? What is "our planet"?? Is it indeed Antar? Or is it possibly Earth? How does the V-Constellation fit into all of this? Is Antar part of the V-Constellation? Or is the V-Constellation seen from Earth merely a representation of our 5 planets in the story.

Anyway - thread topic - where does Liz fit into this entire scenario? Now that we know there are FIVE planets involved in this mess. It's been often stated "Liz is Venus" in here. Ok, this is kind of nuts... but if Venus is part of this V-Constellation... and this V-Constellation IS the Constellation of Twilo (or a representation of it).... then could Liz, or some part of her, indeed be from *Venus* somehow (crazy, I know)? If it isn't meant to be taken literally... could Liz be from the planet Venus represents in the V-Constellation (which represents the FIVE planets including Antar) seen from Earth?

This possible *fifth* planet was neutral from the conflict? It could have been the deciding factor in the past but because the inhabitants of the planet refused to intervene... the others went to war? Could Liz be part of this neutral (deciding factor?) alien race? Ugh, this is getting crazy. I'll stop now.

Melodious

Hi, thank's for posting that thought! I totally missed it. As a Roswell newbie (and FF newbie as well btw -I'm Qfanny, ignore me. I just rattle.) you may want to visit maxcedo's site at www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/ . These would be season one theories though, but it will give you a good rehash of what was discussed over the summer.

Love your eye for detail!

You've got a good point on the whole Tess/Ava comparison - did you note that they did not talk to each other at all during Rath's/Max's meeting? Tess was (and maybe still is) "dup"licitous with our RosPods and Ava seems to have a more humane attitude toward what happened to Zan (loved that name, btw).

I'm wondering if the pods for Tess and Ava could have been switched. Could this be why Tess was born/hatched later than the others? Could Harding/Nacedo have switched the Tess/Ava pods? Could he also have been playing guardian to both sets of podsters, thereby telling the NYers about the NMans, giving them the yearbook, etc. (Probably not, but ya know?)

If Ava stays in Roswell as it appears she is going to do, I'm wondering if Liz will trust Ava where she could not trust Tess. Liz seems to have insight into others; it will be really intersting to see how the two interact.

Ree99

Hello All...

Regarding Tess/Ava. Here's an interesting observation. In Harvest, remember when Tess and Liz had their conversation in the jeep re: Liz sleeping with Kyle? Tess's response..."No big deal, it was just sex". Does anyone notice the similarity between that response and Lonny's response to Rath saying that he would "do" Liz... Something to the effect of "go for it, just don't kill her". It seemed really obvious to me that Tess is more like the dupes than she is like our podsters. In so many ways! Some things specifically come to mind...in Destiny where she was so quick not to care about leaving the human's behind. How in the beginning she used duplicity to get to the podsters...how aggressive she has been lately. There are so many parallels you can draw between the Tess we know and the dupes...while on the reverse side of that argument Ava seemed more human than the others. She screemed "no" when they killed Zan and she didn't want any part of what Rath and Lonny were up to. This is not a spoiler, just my speculation but I would be willing to bet that in the next eppy Tess is exposed for who she really is. Ava, as we now know stays in Roswell and I bet this new, kinder version becomes the new fourth podster. Maybe it's the way TPTB will make her acceptable to us. And for all you dreamers out there -- somehow she won't be interested in Max in a romantic way, clearing the path for a M/L reunion. Anyway...something like that. I just have this nagging feeling that this is how the writers are going to kind of re-write Tess so that she is accepted by the fans (and the other characters on the show!)...

And, in regards to the V symbol which has been discussed in depth on this board. The V symbol represents the 5 stars in their galaxy. The 5 families. Maybe it still has something to do with Liz being Venus...but I'm pretty sure that is what it represents. In the coming attractions for next week's eppy, there was a short shot of Max and the 5 stars coming together in the V. Additionally, the red star exploding...remember how in sexual healing Liz saw a red star in the "whirlwind" galaxy? Well, the teacher said it was rare that the star would disappear as quickly as it did. Unheard of. Well hey -- now we know there is a war going on in that galaxy and I'll bet one of the warring factions blew it up...hence the peace summit meeting was called. Things are heating up and about to get very interesting.

While I'm on this roll, I will also say that Brody says there were two blips...one in NY and he said "one right nearby". You couldn't see it, but you can bet one of the blips was right nearby Roswell. The Skins? Brody's pentagon thing? Not sure about where exactly the blip was coming from, but I wouldn't be surprised if Nikolas or another representative of the skins shows up at that peace summit. ( I am spoiler free, so this is a pure speculation).

This episode created way more questions than it answered (gee, what a surprise). On a personal note, you know what really bites? I'm leaving the country for a month and won't be able to see MITC or any other new episode until Christmas time! I can't believe this is the last episode I'll see until then. Major disappointment. However, I will be traveling around Europe having the time of my life, so I'm sure I'll survive!!!

I'll be here through the week though, and I can't wait to see what everyone thinks of the new developments. This board is by far the best one I've seen and I really enjoy the intellectual stimulation that it inspires!

As always, thanks for listening!

{~}:}

quote:Originally posted by justsmile:
Re: Tess/false memories... If Tess really did plant false memories about the pod chamber in M/I/M's minds, how did she know what Michael looked like as a child? Would we assume she found a childhood picture somewhere or that he was included in the Evans' pictures?

Perhaps they weren't false memories... What if Tess and Ava were switched somehow? Ava's pod was possibly the leaking pod. When Edsedo found the podsters, he realized Ava wasn't going to do (due to the leak, something was wrong with her?). So Edsedo switches unborn Ava with unborn Tess... during this time, however, Max/Mike/Isabel hatch (hence Max doesn't remember a fourth in the pod in his memories... neither Tess or Ava were there).

However, this would have to mean that Tess was the one that was taking longer to hatch, so perhaps hers was the leaking pod (in her memories, she was left behind by the others.... although this would almost coincide with the behavior of the Rath and Lonnie to Ava... like the fifth wheel). Edsedo plants Tess in Roswell pod chamber... after Tess hatches, Tess doesn't remember Max/Mike/Iz hatching; she remembers Zan/Rath/Lonnie's hatching.

Or perhaps Edsedo realized Ava would just be *too human* because of her particular programming (which is similar/identical to Max/Mike/Iz's programming). Zan/Rath/Lonnie/Tess have different programming (more alien, possibly more like what *they used to be*). Edsedo realizes, however, Tess needs *special* attention (because she was from the "defective" set of podsters)... hence, Edsedo raises Tess purposefully separate from the other Royals? Nurturing Tess so that she will be to the calibre of the "non-defective" set? Although why Edsedo would just switch Tess and not the rest of them.... unless Edsedo was trying to submarine the group? Which I find unlikely. I always felt Edsedo was working with his own agenda, but was always protecting the podsters (in his own way), perhaps Edsedo's agenda was to have at least one *very alien* member of the new Royal Four? Perhaps those were his orders by the faction he was working for on Antar? Although... why switch the young bride? Of all the Royals?

Melodious

I'm insane with the posting tonight.... I know I probably shouldn't dare speculate on this until the actual episode airs... but in next week's ep, it almost seemed like *someone* was holding their hand up behind Max's head emitting some light. This makes a light glow on Max's forehead... seemingly *projecting* the image of the V-Constellation (inc. the red giant [exploding]) right out of Max's head.

Well, if what Liz was seeing in SH was coming directly from something deeply buried in Max... then could Liz - in theory - possibly be part of this presumed alien race that was shining the light behind Max's head in the promo (if it's indeed a *different* race from the current ones we've been introduced which is completely unknown as yet)? Somehow able to dig out this very deeply hidden information in Max and project it outward?

However, Liz was somehow able to *get in Max's head* because she is open and completely acceptant to the connection she has with Max? She didn't see visions with Rath because she's not open to him, the kiss was completely unwelcomed and she shut down? Did Rath get visions from her?

Although, what Liz did (entirely unconsciously, if she did indeed *do* something) ... also could be translated as a Mind Rape to a certain extent (but obviously, a painless form). She found (or should say, stumbled on) something presumedly VERY DEEPLY hidden in Max's psyche (as well as some things from Maxcedo - things Maxcedo probably definitely didn't want people to know about [killing Sheila Hubble?]). The memories Max was seeing from Liz were all conscious ones - things Liz probably remembers herself (and since she was open to him, let him see inside her). As opposed to Max learning how to ride his bicycle... Liz sees stars, galaxies (inc. a red giant?), plummeting to Earth...? Could it be because Max was open to her, this *possible* (and I STRESS *possible*) Mind Rape Liz performed on Max wasn't painful... because Max accepted it willingly (w/out realizing it)... Nikolas' mindrape was forced, Max was fighting him (hence the apparent discomfort).

If Liz is at all part alien.... is she from this yet unnamed *glowing hand/projector* race mentioned above (which could possibly be Skin or Podian, who knows) ... or is she part Skin (and a powerful one at that, if she was able to merely *stumble upon* these subconscious memories/programming in Max)?

Melodious

WOW!

-Five ruling families! Holy crap! It looks like all of our 14 scouting wasn't in vain after all. But was anyone else thinking about "The Godfather"?

-The human defect, Ava/Tess. I am really liking Ava so far and I can't wait to see where this is going.

-It's official: I LOVE Brody! Of course, the last new character I loved dissolved into dust last week and is mourned by none. (Courtney? Courtney who???)

-Didn't Liz look great this ep? They seem to have toned down the hair a bit.

Finally Roswell's second season has delivered the goods. Easily my fave ep of the season so far. I have to go watch again now so I can post more tommorow. 'Night.

I have a bit of a continuity gripe to bring up with MTD. Max & Liz apparently exchanged Christmas presents last Christmas. Liz gave Max a black pocket knife with "Max & Liz 4Ever" etched in it... Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't Max break up with Liz (BALANCE) just before Christmas? Why would Liz give Max a knife with the above etching, if they were broken up? They didn't get *together* again until SH.

btw, ironic that it was a knife Liz gave Max, which, of course he returned. Rather symbolic I should say... all of us Dreamers got the knife stabbed in our hearts EOTW and TPTB have continuously been twisting it a notch after each ep... turning it a little more fiercely in some eps then others (TPTB gave it a big ol' twist in this ep). Ouch.

Melodious

See what he thinks of this one from White Room. (Re: the 4 + 1.) Is it suggesting that the 1 will be from an unexpected place, a completely different direction than the 4?

Okay, but then why in Balance are there shots of Max, Iz and Michael walking to the cliff? I think it's another continuation problem.

When I first heard about the exploding red giant..bells went off! Max's planet or the star that his planet has as a sun could have exploded as reguards to the war or to Kavir's poor skills at taking over the throne. I've had this feeling for a while now that Nicholas did not really like the idea of Kavir leading them. Just the wording they chose when Nicholas was talking about him as well as the tone, made me feel as if there was a lot of bitterness and competion between them.

I like the idea of TPTB switching Ava and Tess. I think it's a fab story line and one that would really work.

What also got me thinking was the fact that the explosion of the red giant and the call for a PEACE SUMMIT came at approximately the same time. How wierd is that? Could Kavir be dead and NOW the other factions are calling for peace since the main faction that wanted/started the war is leaderless. But what about Nicholas?

All I can say it that I can't wait for next week!

Remember,
This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

Yeah, one question. What's wrong with ??

Laura (Who knows better then to mistake some posters fanficy wish lists for real spoilers...)

I DONT think we can take Rath's comment about FIVE ruling planets as the gospel truth. It goes against the mom-o-gram, and everything nikolas said and Courtney. NO ONE has mentioned anything more than ONE planet.
Remember - when he made this comment he also told Max that he and Zan were "closer than brothers" and that Zan wanted to go to the peace summit to unite the planets (LIES!!).
Zan did NOT want to go to the summit - he thought it was a set up.

I would also take the "dupes as the second set of pods" with a grain of salt. remember the word "dupe" literally means "a stupid person who is easily fooled - to fool or trick someone". Also - notce the banners above the dupes heads in the UFO museum. One read "Are they still here?" (could "they" imply the EA - since many people may think they all got destroyed in wipeout??) Another banner read "Who Are They???"

This is part of a two part series - obviously the DUPES are not going to become "Rowell regulars" - so I think that - as dor now - we all may have been "duped" if we assume they are authentic podsters offering truthful accounts of the war on the home planet. Remember - they went through Max's stuff to find out what LIES to tell to MANIPULATE him into doing their will.

Some random things I noticed:

1. There was a "ROYAL CROWN" cola machine in
the UFO museum.

2. I also noticed the "house of cards" reference. Interesting. I am beginning to wonder if the whole "Vilandra" story is true after all - for Lonnie to tell it in terms of a "house of cards" seems to imply a trick or illusion.

3. The odometer of the truck that killed Zan
read 95000 - there is the 9 and the 5 again.

4. Rath had a wierd triangle tatoo on his arm - kind of looks like the symbol for the UFL at silverhandprint.com

5. more on Rath - he referred to the war back home as a "REVOLUTION" of sorts. My understanding is that REVOLUTIONS are fought to overthrow a KING. Civil War and Revolution are two different things.

6. more on Rath - why in the WORLD would he tell Valenti they were afraid the ALIEN HUNTER may be at Max's house?????? Unless - of course - he is a shapeshifter who knew all about the Pierce ordeal & Valenti's connection to it.

7. On "AVA" - her name is an alternate version of - EVE. I looked up the meaning and found it is hotly disputed - it actually has a dual meaning - "LIVING BEING" or "SERPENT".

8. Ava did not seem accepted by the dupes - in fact - she seemed afraid of them. Remember Lonnie's wierd comment to her in the car - something along the lines of "who are you? where did you come from? why are you here? you are NOTHING to me" For authentic podsters with four square tatoos they dont seem to operate in a very "four square" way.
WHY did TESS decide to come to the summit????? I totally did not understand that one. And once AVA saw TESS she realised that if she got in that car they were going to kill her.
Also notice that Michael questioned Rath about the pods and Isabel questioned Lonnie - but Tess did not seem to be at all curious about Ava.

9. I thought the knife thing was weird too - since they were not together at Christmas.
The one thing I noticed is the inscription with the "4" - ever. Also Liz was looking at the set of 4 photos.
The symbolism of the knife (as a gift) is "protection from evil spirits".

10. Max had a picture with a lightning bolt above his bed.

11. In WO we see a stylized SUN mirror in Liz's bedroom. There is a similar stylized sun hanging in the Evan's home (near their laundry room). In the UFO museum Liz and Maria talked surrounded by SUNFLOWERS.
Also - the tattoo on AVA's stomach looks like the same stylized sun as the mirror in Liz's room.
It also seemed to me that when they were making introductions that AVA made eye contact with Liz. Max also seemed to have moments of "recognition" looking at AVA (i/e the scene where Ava decides to stay in Roswell)

Finally - anyone know what kind of pet Max keeps in that terrarium?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I just have one thing to add. Max seemed surprised that it was 7:30 in the morning, and frankly, I was too. Was there a time lapse - remember Brody talked about missing time? Hmmm... I found that very interesting.

Anyone else have any thoughts on that?

Here is quote from Isabel in Four Square - talking to Max about being alone with Tess.
(she is also - having STRANGE DREAMS)

ISABEL: She really scared me, Max. It was like I lost a few seconds of time, and when it was over, I wasn’t even sure if what I remembered had happened or not. Is that what she did to you?

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I'm still reading everyone's thought, but I just wanted to say on this one - YESSSS!!!!! That totally makes sense!! I actually felt a little sorry for Ava and wanted her to be "one of the good guys"!

First off, the T / Ava thing - definitely plausable that they were switched. Whoever mentioned what Liz will think of Ava makes a good point. Will Liz be able to see the good in Ava and trust her more than she has T or will she simply not be able to see past the fact that Ava is also a "betrothed" to someone from Max's essence (wow.. that sounds bizarre).

Secondly, why did Max take T to NYC?? Why not take Mike? I guess since "Mike" came to "Iz's" side at the fake-scene, then maybe Max felt betrayed by the both of them and chose T instead, but.. well, why is Max putting all this trust in T ?

Third, my friend and I were having a discussion about Liz and Max and Liz ALMOST telling Max and how *I* just REALLY want her to tell him. Do you think she can? She keeps saying that she can't "tell you" (to Max and Maria), but why not? Is this a permanent thing in Liz's mind? Where she can NEVER be with Max and NEVER be in love with him? I thought that since she altered the events of that evening and T has "stuck around" that it would be OK to tell him now - don't you think?

Fourth, was Rath this "person" that Courtney was looking for? They look alike and maybe she was looking for HIM, which would mean that Rath is probably trying to overturn Max's powers and rule his OWN way, right??

Fifth, do these dupes know about the Skins? Do they know about the Harvest? Do they know anything? They said they wer e"contacted" - by whom and when and how did they get located? Do they have daily "chats" with aliens or what's the deal? Nacedo? They know anything about him? Or Tic-Tac?? Questions..questions.. and MORE questions!

Finally, the reference to 5 planets (if it's true). The reference to Liz being the 5th. The reference to the "rejects being more human" like Liz.. she's VERY human.. maybe she was part of this duplication process and dripped most of her "grey goo" out, which in turn made her "more human" and even MORE human? Does that make sense? In other words, she was already defective since she was "too human", yet with the loss of the grey goo she became almost 100% human.. hence the lack of powers as of yet, etc.?? Oh.. I hope so!!!

Even the M/L moments seemed just a little off to me. Max seemed colder this week than he did last week. I guess it's the dreamer heart in me that knows his grief, but wants him to keep believing in Liz or at least what they had.

And what was that dirty smile between Iz & Lonnie when Alex offered them a cold beverage. I know there is nothing between Iz and Alex, but that meanness was so uncharacteristic.

I am also a bit depressed over the distrust between nearly all of our characters now (except for Max and Tess-yuck!) I thought Maria's point was well taken when Liz was kissed by Rath whom she thought was Michael and which Maria found upsetting. Liz ignored Maria's feelings and changed the conversation back to the situation that she can't discuss--than why bring it up?

Where is this show going? I would really like to see an episode that once again shows the podsters fitting in to their human lives. Oh, for the good old days...

Chica

Liz and Max---Always and 4 Ever

Where is this show going? I would really like to see an episode that once again shows the podsters fitting in to their human lives. Oh, for the good old days...

I have to agree. The distrust between everyone is getting out of control - secrets EVERYWHERE! And why is it Max and T are suddenly bosom buddies!? *gag*

I'd like to see some of the connections that we all feel in love with when Roswell started. The love between max and Liz.. the zaney wackiness of Maria and Mike... the sweetness of Alex and Iz. Where has all the romance gone? Even the beautiful friendships we saw between Maria and Liz.. or Alex and Maria (although, we caught a glimpse of that in TEOTW). The love between Iz and Max that was so sweet it ALMOST made you want to *gag*, but.. well, it was Iz and Max!

I miss the good ole days too!

First, welcome! We love new posters! Gives us old posters some more insight into our already crazy thoughts!!!

Second, WOW! Is this true? Is anyone at home and can watch this section and see if lurker's accurate? How cool if there were another Liz out there!!!??? And if there IS another Liz, does that make her the Fourth Podster?? And if she IS the Fourth Podster, then who's the imposter!?! T !?!?

Oh.. I swear.. these episodes make me CRAZY!

i think that tess and ava were switched. tess had said in the past episodes that she remembered max at their home planet that he loved her once. she continued to say that when they got home.... tess is the only one of the podsters that want to go home (mike too at one point? i don't remember). lonnie and rath wanted to leave this "wretched planet" just as tess had mentioned. ava seemed remorseful that zan was killed. she's about the only one w/ a conscience. maybe ava is a podster and not a dupe. these dupes have no scruples, at least ava does. maybe liz will be receptive to ava after she get to know her. and then maybe liz will have some insight as to how the dupes operate and the history of what went on. it just seems that podsters are only getting glimpses of what happened. whereas the dupes know what happened and i think that tess knows what happened since i think she the dupe. with ava as the inside person, and liz befriending her, liz will learn more about what went on.... adding to the burden she's already carrying.

just my 2 cents.

i think that tess and ava were switched. tess had said in the past episodes that she remembered max at their home planet that he loved her once. she continued to say that when they got home.... tess is the only one of the podsters that want to go home (mike too at one point? i don't remember). lonnie and rath wanted to leave this "wretched planet" just as tess had mentioned. ava seemed remorseful that zan was killed. she's about the only one w/ a conscience. maybe ava is a podster and not a dupe. these dupes have no scruples, at least ava does. maybe liz will be receptive to ava after she get to know her. and then maybe liz will have some insight as to how the dupes operate and the history of what went on. it just seems that podsters are only getting glimpses of what happened. whereas the dupes know what happened and i think that tess knows what happened since i think she the dupe. with ava as the inside person, and liz befriending her, liz will learn more about what went on.... adding to the burden she's already carrying.

just my 2 cents.

Here's a question though - if Ava is supposed to be in the Pod Squad and T is "a dupe" does that mean that Ava and Max will be together!?

Will Liz be the one to have to tell Michael and Isabelle?

And, for what it's worth, it didn't seem to me like Zan and Ava were together in NY.

Not to worry, when the repeats come in dec. and in the summer i'll take care of it.
Now if there was only a way to get season 1 tapes...

Now I really gotta go to class

As for the quote - I think it was "no wonder his bitch left him". Of course that still leaves the question of how they knew Max and Liz were broken up (although finding her picture in his SOCK drawer may have been a clue)

Also - I noticed another thing - when Liz and Maria are talking in the sunflowers - notice the WHITE PICKET FENCE.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

But I wanted to say a few things. This ep was rather torturous for me. But one thing made me happy. Continuity - they brought up the red star again. ::"It's about time!" redhawk jumps for joy::
I watched the ep for the second time this morning and I took twice as many notes as I usually do. Plus, may I just say I LOVE my new VCR. That jog-shuttle feature is awesome.

Okay, two things (sorry if someone already mentioned this):
1. in the promo for next week, the V-constellation appears. Are what we normally refer to as 5 stars actually the 5 planets mentioned previously in MtD? Well, they have to be stars to show up in our sky, but then, is there a single inhabitable planet per star like earth and the sun (although we never know about that)? And isn't the V-constellation related to Aries and Venus? Those really don't have anything to do with the whirlwind galaxy, do they? So many questions, so few answers...

2. Has jen2themax been over here to point out the Tess factor in the wpix promo ( www.wb2.com ). The real player promo there is different then the one they showed last night after the ep. There is a back shot of Tess naked. But in the one last night she is clothed and looks like she is about to do one of those mind-manipulation things. Well, it is all conjecture on my part because I'm spoiler free. Anyway, thought you all might want to check out the other promo.

Just thought I'd add this. I've been working on a project for Qfanny, a pair of collages. This is one of them. Enjoy!
Secrets

Okay, I'm off to catch up on this thread.
Bye guys!

Weird. How DID they know? Oh wait.. did Liz say something to Rath at school? No - that was after he found the picture and after he said to her "I just thought since you and Max weren't". Maybe he was guessing?? I mean, simply finding a picture in a sock drawn doesn't mean that girl ripped your heart out by "sleeping" with her ex boyfriend, does it!?

lurker: I guess your name no longer suits you. I'm glad you joined us, you have great insight, what took you so long?
I was thinking the same thing when I herd this. What if Zane's Liz, is Serina Remember what Future Max told Liz.

FUTURE MAX: I don't entirely understand it myself, but Serina said...she's gonna be a friend of yours one day. It has something to do with quantum mechanics, but in essence, Max and I would both be destroyed if we actually came into contact.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
When FM said this I thought to myself, another Science Geek. It seems like Zane and Max had a lot in common, including the kind of women they were attracted to. I think we were all wondering when and if she would show up.
Zane and Max were both left by their true loves, but why? Was Sernia also visited by a Future Zane, but now the poor guy is dead. Boy and we felt sorry for Liz.
If Liz is the 5th element to Roswell's pod squad, does this mean Serina is the 5th element to the NY squad? But with Zane dead does this mean her mission is aborted. Liz and Serina both seem to be connected to the Granilith, maybe Serina will help Max in NY, she just better keep her hands off of him. With Serina, Tess and Ava around how ever will Max and Liz get back together.

Once again we see the need for Rath to DO Liz, get the LAY OF THE LAND. I think we all got the message. Liz has been kissed now by, Max, Nasedo/Max, Doug, Kyle and now Rath. Wow Liz, you go girl. So why are Liz's lips so populer, other then she is a beauty? Lonnie told Rath, "fine Do her, just don't kill her, you know how important what we're doing here is, so don't screw it up." Does Rath want to DO Liz to stop the change? Is Liz's virginity, her perfection, lead to her change? Now if you think back again to EOTW, it seemed to me that FM had to stop the cementing of the relationship. Other wise Max would have spoiled Liz and made her unworthy of becoming the 5th element, she would no longer be PERFECT? I just hope if this theory is true, for Liz and Max's sake, once she does change, they can cement away.
One more thing, Liz seems to be important enough "not" to be killed. Even if she does not become the 5th element. Any body want to take a guess why? Because I'm stumped.

Max and Liz 4 ever.
Evid

FUTURE MAX: I don't entirely understand it myself, but Serina said...she's gonna be a friend of yours one day. It has something to do with quantum mechanics, but in essence, Max and I would both be destroyed if we actually came into contact.

Very interesting theory. Another Liz.. and Liz becoming friends with this other self? Hmm... I'm not sure what I think about that. First, it'd have to assume that Liz really WAS the fifth element, which I don't know if I'm convinced yet. Plus, what's the likely hood of there being two fifth elements? I mean, unless both sets of the Pod Squad were both sent with the Fifth Element in tact. Would that be why maybe Zan didn't want to go to this "group meeting"? Maybe he was in love with Serina and she talked him out of it (going along with the idea of maybe she got a visit from Future Zan). Then.. Zan was killed and.. hmm.. I'm not sure. Let me get back to you here.

quote:One more thing, Liz seems to be important enough "not" to be killed. Even if she does not become the 5th element. Any body want to take a guess why? Because I'm stumped.

I'm thinking it's something simple like if they kill Liz, then they'll tick off Max and he won't trust them. Although, I'd like it to be more complicated.

Is anyone out there just a TAD frustrated that we didn't and NEVER WILL see Zan's reaction to Liz?? We certainly got to see Rath's, but an opinion evidently not shared by Michael (outwardly that is if he does share it... the Polarist and Candyclanner in me are battling with that one). As a Dreamer and Liz Mythologist I was DYING to see if Zan - this dupe, this clone of Max - would have been inexplicably drawn to Liz as Max was.

Granted this could have explanations not necessarily delving into *sci fi*. Particularly, Zan and Max were possibly similar enough that they are attracted to the same women, Liz would be the epidemy of one of these women.

Although then you'd get into the nature vs. nurture arguments. Zan and Max, as far as I could tell, were ENTIRELY different people (from what little we saw of Zan), raised in entirely different environments. If both had this same strong attraction to Liz... is it because Liz is their *ideal woman* or is it because there's just something OFF about Liz that only *the King* can sense?

It's almost too convenient imo. Something that would have seemingly stapled Liz's importance (being the one object of affection for two different versions of "the King")... and we'll never see it. ::goes to bedroom, stuffs head in pillow screaming, "Why?!" until throat is hoarse::

Melodious

The knife is definitely symbolic: Liz gave it to Max, he gave it back (twist, stab).
And ol' Max was as metaphorical as any poster here with the comments on the red star (read M&L relationship) not glowing anymore.

Starbox,
re: quote:6. more on Rath - why in the WORLD would he tell Valenti they were afraid the ALIEN HUNTER may be at Max's
house?????? Unless - of course - he is a shapeshifter who knew all about the Pierce ordeal & Valenti's connection to
it. Rewatch and you will see that Valenti makes it clear that he's in on the podsters' alienness.
Azcat:good catch on the potential time lapse. If so, then who's doing it? And how come the podsters and humans are in it both this time?
Someone else mentioned that Brody's comments to Maria about lost moments fit well with WO.
And Starbox, yea, Isabel said Tess did that to her too, and it seemed to happen to Max when Tess took him to the pods last season. So does Tess have the power to time warp?

On Trust: Recall FM told Liz that he didn't go to Tess because he didn't trust her, he only trusted Liz. Now he says he doesn't trust Liz. Liz is smart enough to realize this is no good. Recall FM's comment on not being sure about the Kyle plan. I thought it was kind of cute at the time that he was jealous. But now it seems he knew it would destroy his trust in Liz, and this was just as crucial to survival as Tess's powers.

What I don't get is why is it that Rath could kill Zan? I mean, was he simply just so eager to do it his way that he was willing to kill "the king"? Or is Rath really trying to start this revolution and Zan wouldn't have it (just like how Courtney said Mikey G was their leader, but wouldn't betray Max)??

I think I'm more confused than ever.. if that's possible.

what if *Tess* sent the signal to NY - remember, "one near here" ...

since she seemed to be possibly causing the time loss earlier, ooh, gosh, synapses leaping and falling - someone help me out here! I think this could tie in to her being involved in the whole thing - am I adding one and one and getting four, or is there something to this?

Starbox,
re: [QUOTE]6. more on Rath - why in the WORLD would he tell Valenti they were afraid the ALIEN HUNTER may be at Max's
house?????? Unless - of course - he is a shapeshifter who knew all about the Pierce ordeal & Valenti's connection to
it. Rewatch and you will see that Valenti makes it clear that he's in on the podsters' alienness.

********************************************

No No No - PLEASE dont make me watch it again! I have already watched it three times and I like it LESS with each viewing. I agree that Valenti made it clear he knew they were aliens - picked that up the first <gag> viewing. BUT - WHY would he ask for help with the ALIEN HUNTER & insinuate that they thought the alien hunter might be back???????? I mean - I can give Dupe Michael the benefit of the doubt and say he picked up on the fact that the sherriff knew they were aliens - BUT its a huge leap to then conclude that the sherriff has been helping them with "alien hunters". Just struck me as a wee bit odd.
I actually also got a Nasedo vibe from "Rath" in his desire to stick his tounge down Liz's throat. WHAT was that about anyway???

I did NOT like this episode. And I have this bad feeling that everything people assume (esp about the dupes being on the same "side" as the podsters) after watching MTD is going to be pulled out from under them in MITC.

Oh - and after this last rewatch - Lonnie does say "NO WONDER his bitch left him".

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

So Lonnie says it!? HOW does she know!?!

BTW, does anyone think that when they saw the picture of Liz in the sock drawer that they knew he had a girlfriend already?

But I don't think they can shapeshift like Nasedo.

On the Rath kissing Liz deal: recall at the end of Missing that Michael tells Liz after he reads her journal that now he has another reason to envy Max. Then at the end of SO47 he is very nice to her. I think the only reasons her wouldn't go for her are 1) Maria, and 2) human morés.

It looks like Tess/Ava are a true part of the Royal 4. I also think it is interest that Ava appears more sympathetic and less manipulative. But if Emilie is going to keep playing Ava she will have to work on that NY accent. I think that was the real reason they kept her quiet in this episode.

I still think Liz has a vital destiny in the Royal 4 as a human. We will see. I think the writers are finally trying to address these issues with this and future episodes. Now that the skins are gone (hopefully for good), the writers can get on with developing the podsters destiny issues that we keep speculating on.

We should learn more about their planet and the other 4 planets/families and Max's role in the war. As for whether it is a civil war or revolution, I think its all relative. It would depend on whose side you were on and who won.

I can't wait until next Monday.

NO! No more questions!!

Welcome aboard lurker! Of course we'll be nice to you... My take on that comment about Zan was...they said, "that's Zan allright, with an even bigger stick up his ass...no wonder his bitch left him." Prior to this scene -- you have the scene where Rath walked up to Liz and kissed her by the lockers...and he said to her "now that Maxie is gone"...

I guess we're supposed to assume he found out while he was 'getting the lay of the land'? Another loose end for us to ponder over, I guess.

They really need to have ALL of the writers work on ALL of the episodes, don't ya thinK?

{~}:}

BTW, does anyone think that when they saw the picture of Liz in the sock drawer that they knew he had a girlfriend already?

But I don't think they can shapeshift like Nasedo.

[/B]

Hey Shapeshifter :-)

I will admit that in some ways it was a "fun" episode - seeing the alter-egos. And Katy is SUCH a good actress.
I just dont like the fact that it did raised more questions than it answered. And I dont like the fact that Max is starting to seem stupid to me. And - I dont like the fact that - to roughly quote Majaranda - "these kids can do the most awful things to each other with no consequences". There was an underlying meanness to this episode - and not just among the dupes either. It left me feeling confused and frustrated - and I missed the warmth that was present all last season and in glimpses this season.
But - I digress.

The Rath and Lonnie "shapeshift" was too weird. It seemed that they DID in fact - shapeshift (altered their physical body) - but didnt manipulate matter (i.e change their clothes) ALTHOUGH they DID get their jewelry back????????? I mean - what was that???????
I dont think the writers really thought about it. Its like "they KIND OF shapeshift - they KIND OF manipulate matter".

And - now that you mention it - I do think they knew that Max had a girlfriend.

Oh - and one last detail - after my last rewatch. Max says clearly at the UFO center that ONLY he was invited to the summit. He says this in front of Tess. So - how did she manage to get invited along??????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I've been away from these boards for a whole week. My husband and I both managed to get the flu at the same time, 104 degree temperature and all. This was not a good thing as my normally sweet Max like husband seemed to have abducted and replaced with an impatient grumpy man. I've decided wives and/or mothers should never get sick! LOL We're both feeling better now and he's back to his normal self (thank God)!

I'm printing out all that I've missed and will hopefully be back tomorrow to join back in the discussion. I've really missed talking with all of you.

See ya
Starstruck

Metapysicalgrl: are you trying to tell me that there could have been flashes when Liz and Rathed kissed, how else would he have known that Max her were not together ( at least for now)hmmmmm!

I have one question, Why did the Rath and Lonnie kill Zan? I assume since they are duplicates, maybe they couldn't pass as the originals at the summit. Is that why they need Max, because they know that he is the (origianl) King and leader, and the summit leaders wouldn't be "duped" by him.

Anyone have answers for me???
I hope when Max comes back from NYC he understands that LIZ is part of his destiny too. We all know this, when will he!!!!!!!

Keep up the great post and ideas,you guys always make the wait for the next episode sorter!!!!

First of all I know some of you did not like this eppy, BUT remember that it's a TWO parter. They are connnected so before you hand down the final verdict will you please wait until you have seen the second part, it's the least you can do

Now, someone mentioned how Rath kissed Liz, as well as Nasedo and of course Max(), so what is it about Liz that the aliens feel so attracted to. Could this be another clue to Liz's importance, in order for that to be true we would have to assume that Zan would have wanted to do the same if he had the chance to see her, as well as Michael if he wasn't loyal or respectful to Max's feelings to her.

Another thing, funny that some of you mentioned Serena cause while in class earlier today I'm half listening to my professor and half thinking about the show, I have slightly different approach as to who she is and her importance. Now in TEOTW FM said that Serena was going to be a friend of LIZ's so what is this about Serena being Zan's soulmate? I don't see how this would work. FM also said that Serena was the one who told him not to see PM cause it had something to do with quantum mechanics... now, to me that's a possible clue as to when we will meet Serena.
I'm thinking college perhaps because if Liz goes on to study anything science related where else would she meet another science geek If Serena is going to be important somehow I see her as an ally we won't meet for a while. Anyone agree...

Also, I know many of you are frustrated cause of the many questions raised in every eppy, IMHO would YOU ALL GET OVER IT!!! This is not a sitcom where each eppy is different. Roswell episodes tie together if you just be patient and watch, and while some questions may never be answered I think we are expecting too much, the writers have it hard as it is with " we want M&L and M&M back together!" (me too, I admit) and network demands, etc... and they don't need our nitpicking on and on and on.

Sorry if I was a little tough, hope you all don't hate me, but I needed to vent I'm still mad about MaxLiz

I do belive that Liz is an alien or at least half alien. I mean I look back at Sexual Healing ( smashing episode wasnt it? )
and the Wipe Out episode. I dont see how anyone could moan from a guy touching your hand in class ( but this is Jason Behr and I do that any old time he would touch my hand seriously.... ) And in Wipe out The Skin they found and picked up I say one day the group should get together and like they are walking down the street and then like Liz picks up a skin she sees on the ground and it desengrates in front of everybody and then they find out " hey Liz is us TOO!!!" (HEY WRTIERS IT MAY BE A CHEAP SHOT BUT COME ON !!!) I am starting to ramble so let me stop write hear cuase I could on for days and you guys wouldnt want that.

straBEHRyAPPLEsuace lover

Re: Brody's two signals. My first thought was that the Roswell blip might have been FM's transporting from the future and the NY blip may have been someone else transporting into NY, maybe for a peace summit? Large bursts of energy, ya know? But, Brody saying the blips occurred just the prior week kinda shoots that idea down since it seems that FM was around a lot earlier than that. (However, maybe the green thingy did go off in WO at about the same time...) Or, could the blip in Roswell be related to Brody's loss of memory, etc.? Also, I wonder if the sighting in ITW would have caused a blip also?

So many blips, so little time....

Ree99

Ostensibly it was supposed to be because Zan didn't want to go to the summit--he thought it was a "set up." So Rath was counting on getting Max to do it. BUT, I think that Rath wants to take over (think Michael Worshippers who wanted Michael to be King), and to do that he would have to off Max. Palomino said a key line in the Rhinestone Cowboy song they played was something about the nice guy getting offed.
gotta run

Thank you also to the person who pointed out that Brody's lapses in memory may be from what happened in WO. I thought maybe the writers were hinting at something that may happen in the future, but I think you're right on this one. Another continuity item... Yeah!

Did anyone else notice the fact that it was 7:30 am (that they had somehow lost time or the track of it and spent the night there) not unlike in FOURSQUARE when Max (supposedly) remembers Tess in the pod and it becomes morning too. When Courtney says Nikolas has the ability to manipulate time zones and dimensions well....somehow it seems that the DUPES and Nikolas are connected because we have the time warp again---which also makes me think that Tess is connected to Nikolas because of FOUR SQUARE.

I noticed that Villandra brought up how she was responsible for crumbling of the HOUSE OF CARDS(CARDS AGAIN-SEE I KNEW THIS CARDS STUFF WAS IMPORTANT)he!he!

About the RED GIANT-well it seems like it may have a double meaning but I DO think this connects to the fact that Liz let Max go (and this is certainly not going to be a good thing I think).

Didn't Courtney mention something about PIERCINGS in ASK NOT and now we have all these PIERCING DUPES. I could barely look at them with this stuff on their faces, to me it is like someone scratching down a blackboard with their fingernail arrrggghhhh.

I really hated that LAY OF THE LAND remark, my gosh, Roswell has certainly lost its innocense and I am not sure that is a good thing.

I have more to post but I don't have the time right now, and I will comment on others posts later as well.

Last season I was so HOPEFILLED this season I feel HOPELESS a good deal of the time. And the critics are not loving this new direction either, Roswell please get back on track fast.

Why isn't Liz opening up to Max about why she did what she did? Why is she still lying about the whole situtation? (sleeping with Kyle)

My take on EOTW was that they needed to stop the "love making" from happening. That was accomplished. In fact, with FM disappearing, isn't that enough to show to Liz that they (FM and Liz)were successful in pushing PM to Tess? "This is a different world out there now . . . we create our own destiny"

Don't you think that Liz could confide in Max so they together can keep Tess from leaving town?

I don't get it . . . did I miss something???

Metapysicalgrl: are you trying to tell me that there could have been flashes when Liz and Rathed kissed, how else would he have known that Max her were not together ( at least for now)hmmmmm!

Hey there. Nope, that's not what I was thinking. I think it's pretty safe to say Liz didn't get any flashes. She might have gotten a little nauseous, but no flashes.

I guess what I was thinking was that Rath somehow found out..."off camera". I think this is just one of those details that TPTB aren't going to explain, we're just going to have to assume it happened. I happen to think that a lot of the little details that raise questions for us like...

1) In WO how did Tess know to meet at the Crashdown?
2) In WO how did Tess know that Iz was missing?
3) How did Tess get an invite to the summit if Max was invited alone?

These things, IMHO, are just things we have to assume the answers to -- because everything can't be covered in every episode given the time constraints...for example:

1) Max called her after he called Michael.
2) Max came to the UFO center after he initially went looking of Iz and couldn't find her, to let everyone know she was missing -- and then went out to continue looking for her. When we saw him come into the UFO center, it was the second time he came in.
3) Max probably asked her to come because she is the only one (gag) he seems to be able to trust these days. (brings to mind when Nicholas says in WO that he's still trusting the wrong people).

Anyway, my brother and my father work on TV -- so I happen to know it's not a perfect science and they have a certain amount of time to fit it all in. And yes, it's frusterating to folks like us who are examining every detail, but that's what I think it is. Maybe our answers are lying on the editing room floor?

I do wonder if there was anything to the whole Rath being attracted to Liz -- or if it was just an example of the dupes being, well being the dupes. (couldn't think of any nasty adjectives to insert there...).

I have this new theory I've been kind of playing with. Now that we have seen the dupes, and as we know, they are more alien than human...I keep thinking that maybe the podsters were sent to earth, because what humans had to offer the royal 4 was their humanity. Our emotions, the morals of our society, those kinds of things. I keep thinking that Liz is important because "Knowing her has made Max human". Nicholas said that Max used to make decisions about whole armies based on the flip of a coin. Maybe what Max needed to be a succesful leader was more of a human side.

Also -- here's a theory for you all. What if Nicholas was working with the duplicates, or at least Rath and Lonny. Nicholas would have known a lot of intimate details about the podsters and their human friends through Vanessa Whitaker. She could have told him that Max and Liz had broken up! Remember how Liz confided to her? That would also explain the yearbook - Whitaker could have given it to Nicholas. Now we know there are at least three other "families/alien race" or whatever that are out there. Who KNOWS how they can possibly be involved.

Where was I going with all that? I don't even remember!

Sigh...Oh the tangled webs we weave....

I bet TPTB don't even know what's going on anymore!!

Okay dooky---
Something is not right with the mommogram message and Lonnie's statements to Max regarding Isabel, and it's appartant in the timeline:

Lonnie says that the war was still going on when they sent the pods. Meaning that there was still life of sort and most likely still a planet: Mommy was recorded before she died right?

Ok, then why did Lonnie tell Max that Vilondra was the one that got everyone killed, including their mother?

In order for the mommogram to have been recorded and Vilondra be responsible for their deaths, these possiblities come to mind.

1) Vilondra's betrayal did not immediately kill everyone off at once. Perhaps there was reconcilation between all the parties before the eventual demise. At any rate, Mommy did lived long enough to see that the Destiny plan got started.

2) The Destiny plan was put into action as the proto-podsters were still alive.

Now, my head is not thinking clearly enough to grasp the ramifications of all this, but there seems to be something within all this.

shapeshifter--I spoke with maxcedo and he will check the status of this thread in the morning.

Why isn't Liz opening up to Max about why she did what she did? Why is she still lying about the whole situtation? (sleeping with Kyle)

My take on EOTW was that they needed to stop the "love making" from happening. That was accomplished. In fact, with FM disappearing, isn't that enough to show to Liz that they (FM and Liz)were successful in pushing PM to Tess? "This is a different world out there now . . . we create our own destiny"

Don't you think that Liz could confide in Max so they together can keep Tess from leaving town?

I don't get it . . . did I miss something???

I'm not really sure what's going on... but I do have a comment about Liz being able to tell Max. I have read on other boards that people think now that the skins are destroyed, that the future has been changed and now Liz can go ahead and tell Max the truth.

In EOTW Max says "our enemies destroyed us". He didn't specifically say the skins...and now that we know that there are 5 planets involved...that means more enemies. So I don't think that the coast is clear for Liz to tell Max.

However, it seemed pretty clear to me that keeping Tess around was the key to changing the future. Why not just tell Tess this? She's supposedly fighting the same battle they are. Yeah, I said supposedly.

What REALLY pisses me off though...is that last season Max said when things get intense they sometimes get flashes. HOW MANY TIMES DOES MAX HAVE TO BE ON LIZ'S BALCONY BEFORE HE GETS ONE? You would think that getting your heart broken is a pretty intense thing. How was losing a journal more intense than this? In WO and MTD he's been up in her room and on that balcony. AAARRRGGGHHHH!!

Was someone congratulating the writers on continuity? We should see this in the next issue of variety...

Obsessed Fan Wanted: Weekly TV show is looking for an obsessed fan to sit in on writing meetings to ensure that continuity is carried over from episode to episode. Qualifications: must have seen each episode a minimum of 10 times, must be detail oriented. Full pay and benefits, which include the opportunity to walk over to the soundstage to bask in Jason Behr's beauty. Please fax your resume to: WEN-EED-HELP or email it to us at 2manywriters@roswell.com.

Sigh, I know that was mean... Frusteration rears it's ugly head.

If you REALLY sucked, we wouldn't be watching or taking time out of our lives to engage in these types of discussions, now would we?

Keep up the good work!!

GraceKel:
I agree with the dialogue about the RED GIANT having a double meaning & the possiblity of what Max & Liz had dying out, does not bode well for the group.

Courtney did say to Michael, in Ask Not that piercings "... only hurt once and then it's about the stimulation..." Possibly there is a connection as GraceKel mentions, to the Dupes with their multitude of piercings. A note: Brody also wears an earing through his left ear... possible connection too?

I too noticed the background chanting music, when Isabel(Lonnie) fought with Max. I also noticed the chanting at the beginning of the episode, when Lonnie & Rath were searching Max's room.

quote:StephStephSteph:
Originally posted by StarBox:
Oh - and after this last rewatch - Lonnie does say "NO WONDER his bitch left him".
So Lonnie says it!? HOW does she know!?!

My question is, which bitch are they refering to? Liz or possibly Zan's girl (assuming he had one)?

Interesting about the lost time when all of them were at the UFO centre. Why is it that Alex was the only one that was not affected? After all he fell asleep, while no one noticed the time gone by.

quote:Shapeshifter:
Oh well, I'm still struggling with the scene where Is and Mi become Lon and Rath. The "we've got to get out of these clothes" line is heard after they morph back into their NYC rags.

If they really are the same race as our Podsters, that would make them shapeshifters wouldn't it? If yes, then I think it's possible that they can shapeshift with limitations... hence why Rath & Lonnie weren't wearing their normal clothing. Maybe why the Dupes have this ability & not the others might be due to them using thier powers more (they didn't seem to have any qualms about using them). But I'm stumped on their ability to mask their jewelry (? smaller surface area to change).

As to why Tess is going to NYC with Max when only he was invited, I think it's because of 2 things:
Max is taking her along as a safety precaution. Currently he feels betrayed and is fighting with Is & Michael. Plus neither Is nor Michael volunteered to go with him, when he announced he was going to NY (granted he didn't know he was really talking to the dupes, but still...). So, Tess is the next logical choice of the Podster group-- even if he doesn't trust Tess 100%, it's a lot better than putting all of his trust, safety, his life, in the hands of total stangers.

The dupes didn't invite Tess, but are allowing her to come along. At this point, it's most likely because Max gave it as a stipulation for him going with them back to NYC (returning to the safety precaution reasoning of #1).

Just some random observations:[list]

The liscense plate Lonnie changes on the stolen car is: 615 R5H
Could R5H mean our 4 Podsters + Liz, that go to Roswell High or am I just reaching? I can't think of what the 615 means, except the area code for Tennessee .

What does the poster on the back of Max's bedroom door say? It was featured twice, once when Mr. Evans left the room & again when Max closed the door after Lonnie entrance.

There's a dragon on Liz's window at the end of the episode. Any meanings or any links to Buddhism?

Thoughts anybody?

From the promo I'm thinking that the V formation is all th planets. Earth possibly being the point and someone said they looked like is was directional. And maybe LIz is supposed to be the earth representative.

Interesting about the time warp thing. Could it have been the alien we didn't see last week in WO.

Also if dupe means to trick someone then I say the the dupes were to trick the other aliens. Nasedo and company let them be found to throw the track off the REAL Royal Four so that they could grow and become powerful to defeat those who are against them.

And if the promo for MTD before it aired said that only one will survive are all of the dupes going to die.

I also hope that it is Isabel, Michael and LIz who go and save Max. BEcause as of now all of these people supposedly betrayed Max. Liz w/Kyle--Isable/Vilandra--Michael probably would have according to Courtney.

I am enjoying these eppies a lot, but I do think the podsters need an extented vacation.

Also What's up w/Alex. And Brody was adorable.

Anyway,if you go through it frame by frame there are a few shots of Rath behind Tess. But the weird thing is that his hand is going up and around her face. And the expression is similar to the one he has before he kills someone. Now not to get any one's hopes up but I just thought I'd post this. Also his hand moves up in a classic neck snapping move...well at least the part that I saw.(I watch too many fighting movies)

Now I could be guessing, but just though I'd see if anyone else had seen it.

I Shall Believe & I'll Never Forget

Cheers

It was you - Max

Here's my thinking: Whoever has knowledge of the events of the future (right now only Liz), has the ability to alter and manipulate those events in a concerted way, as opposed to just letting random acts effect what happens down the line. Is this really the sort of power we want to give Tess? Knowing that her decisions basically decide who lives or dies would give her way too much influence over everyone else. There are just too many unknowns in dealing with Tess, this is why Liz doesn't trust her.

About Tess at the summit: The dupes went to great lengths to cut Max off from Isabel and Michael, to make him "trust the wrong people." But they basically ignored his relationship with Tess. Hmm. Could this simply be because they didn't have Ava's cooperation, or do they just not see her as an obstacle to their mission. And if not, why not? They seem to know quite a bit about the past lives. What do they know about Tess?

I don't remember who posted on this, but Alex being asleep haunted me throughout the day. Something about him asking how long he'd been out just struck me funny. I'll figure out why later.

Finally-I can deal with the limited perusal of Whitaker's files and the waste of the fountain of knowledge that was Courtney, but if Max really lets the car trip from New Mexico to New York pass without some serious interrogation of the dupes, I will likely go insane. Ask them questions, you fool!!!

*********
"it's been a mad long day,. let's just chill"
-lonnie

Anyway,if you go through it frame by frame there are a few shots of Rath behind Tess. But the weird thing is that his hand is going up and around her face. And the expression is similar to the one he has before he kills someone. Now not to get any one's hopes up but I just thought I'd post this. Also his hand moves up in a classic neck snapping move...well at least the part that I saw.(I watch too many fighting movies)

Now I could be guessing, but just though I'd see if anyone else had seen it.

I Shall Believe & I'll Never Forget

CharmedKitten: Oh yes I saw it. It looks to me like the writers couldn't figure out what to do with Tess, so they took the easy way out, Kill her off. But now we have Ava who seems more humen. After watching the Dupes and how Ava was looking at Max, I'm sure she will take Tess's place in more ways then one. Did you see the way Liz looked at her "Oh no not another one?" I think every Dreamer out there, myself included, said the same thing. I hate to say it but Max already seems to like Ava, he was also making eye contact. I think Liz needs to do some fast talking and soon, or Max needs to get a brain. "So you know that the Granilith is powerful Liz, Oh that's nice." I think he needs to take a trip down the Yellow Brick Road.

Evid

About Alex begin asleep while everyone else stayed awake was kinda odd. I didn't think it meant anything until someone brought up the issue of missing time here. Remember in Wipe Out Alex disappears along with the rest of roswell humans. So it makes since that he would be the only one to go to sleep, not really losing time since he didn't know he was missing. And why couldn't I see anything on Brody's watch not that it matter it was just weird too, Tess and him seem to have the same taste(her watch and his)? j/k

Why didn't Ava use her powers to save Zan's by making the others Dupes think they killed him. I'm going to rewatch after I look at buffy and angel that I taped tonight. Later

The long and the short of it is that Roswell is adheering to Campbell's HJ, and Liz Parker can easily be put on an HJ. The important part of HJ for Liz is not, however, that she is simply on one, but rather a specific aspect of the HJ. Since Campbell's produced his essay, dozens -- if not thousands -- of works have been written about his theories. One such essay is referred to in the thread by Czech-Please (I think, if it was someone else I am sorry). One of the "stages" of the HJ is "Sacrifice". The hero must give up something of great importance to him/her. Generally it is accepted that Liz gave up Max, but the essay referred to a second way of looking at the "sacrifice" stage which would most often apply to women -- giving up on the belief that they are normal.

In Liz's case this would mean giving up on the idea that she is simply the "smallest of small town girls". What she truly is, well I don't know, but I like the idea and so do alot of the people posting on that thread. If this varient "sacrifice" stage does occur, then it would seem that Liz is in fact very important to Alien mythology.

There is a <b>far<b> more detailed analysis of this whole issue on the aforementioned thread, and its 3 am so I am probably mangling it badly here

Hmm, I thought of that too but later nixed the idea since I thought that she was actually terrified of the other two (note Lonnie's line in the car of "why are you still livin' & breathin' in this car?" = Ava's disposable and at their mercy).

Plus how would she explain it afterwards? "Oops, sorry Rath, you must have made the truck miss flattening Zan like a pancake"?

But hey, you never know with TPTB it seems and how disapointing was it that we never got to see Zan's reaction to Liz & vice versa?!?

Moderators, please lock 17:

Thanks!

maxcedo