Welcome to the 18th thread of the continuing discussion of "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology." We have been dissecting all the Roswell episodes, one by one, finding "clues" to Liz's importance to the Alien Mythology and other relevant topics - and there are a lot of them! Shapeshifter and Qfanny have graciously agreed to set up a single link to the former threads that are available to read. The link will be http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/LizMythology

The following is a summary (sorry it is so long!) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled, however, not all theories are covered in-depth. Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

Liz's importance to the pod squad - and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz - are what we dissect. So - feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don't worry about going off on a tangent - they all tend to lead back to Liz's importance!

First - and foremost - the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look - Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade - time seems to be operating in many dimensions recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as "It was You!" and "I'm coming for You!" that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of "normal." How Liz is important is where the fun - and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things continued on the "current" course, Liz and Max would end up married, and all H*** would break out, resulting in Earth being taken over - by their enemies (Skins? - we don't know since FM never says) in 2014 - all due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess' leaving the group as a result of that connection) - a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max's urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that connection irreparably or just temporarily? Lets go back to the beginning, since few (if any) questions regarding that connection have been answered in this Season - yet!

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz - whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet (Is she the true love of Max's previous life? But if so, why did she disappear in Wipeout?);
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max's alien "essence" or human DNA donor here on Earth;
· Was Liz the original "4th" podster (and Max's true mate) who "hatched" early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents (Though this seems less and less likely after TEOTW, and now that we see that there are duplicate podsters - with Tess
included. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz?);
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth;
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse - containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies - or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max's alien essence;
· Could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted "nerd") that "connects" her to Max. (Let's hear it for Smart Girls! )
· Could Max have a 'future memory' that allowed him to recognized Liz as essential to the survival of the World?

These are just a few of the theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. She seems to have been drawn to him prior to the healing, but figured he was not interested in her - they obviously knew each other since 3rd grade and were lab partners. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz's neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex - the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens' powers - powers that are all human(according to Harding). Could the number of connections also come into play into "changing" Liz, or awaking an already - yet dormant - power within her? Many have wondered about Liz's origins - are her parents her true birth parents or is she adopted like the Evans kids, does she have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble - and how this plays into the connection with Max? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien "blood" - literally or figuratively - in her? We know that Liz's cheek cells differed from Max's,
BUT we did not see what another "human's" cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz's cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now.) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters' people from long ago? How does the Granolith fit into this? We now know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine -so did other have a chance to us it this way?). (So, many questions . !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max's Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the "planned" destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his "destiny" on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new "destiny" that includes Liz - one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the human race and the podsters' people. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary "5th Element - see below.) Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone's "destiny" and "duty." We - mostly - also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of "free choice" into play. The continuing debate of "nature" vs. "nurture" also comes up here - and is the podsquad's "nature" completely "alien" given that all their powers are "human." There has also been an excellent analysis of what "essence" truly means, and can a being's destiny or soul follow the transfer of one's essence. Could the essence of one being been split between two beings - Max and Liz? Also, does one's memory follow one's essence? Tess seems to think it does, but . why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities? (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Are the visions Max's alien being's memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history destined to repeat itself - an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the secrets being kept by the podsters from one-another. As Future Max emphasized: "We make our own Destiny!" Maybe yes, maybe no??

Following one's heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Now Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another?

The symbolism throughout the seasons is incredible - whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz's Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often. Eagles and horses also seem to show up often - and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max - the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be "in balance." Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Viking (?) Ship that is tied to a tale directly relevant to our star-crossed lovers and their trials. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. There are lots of others! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them - JK is too intelligent for that!

In the Mom'ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max's young "bride" has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter - GraceKel )? Could it be Liz? And why do they always use the word "bride"? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? Though many seem to accept that "bride" probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a "mate" for Max (please - no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts - why make it so complicated? There is also the question of whether the Mom'ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? It was hard to tell when Tess' projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case - is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences?), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the "book" found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the ____ moon (help me here Starbox!!) and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox's post about this to understand - but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia's book - which is in Liz's possession (we assume) - help decode the alien's book and shed light on the aliens' connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they "engineered" to that degree of precision, and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker's files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN'T THEY ASK COURTNEY MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry ..)

Liz is also viewed - when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly all this "Grace Kelled" ) - as a ritical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens' mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton's place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, and figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max 'fall out of love with her'). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max - whom we found out is the once and future leader of his people - though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment. Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the podsquad's people? Again - Does Liz's connection "complete" Max, and bring him into "balance"? Could she possess part of Max's alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also 'a brain' - which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the "powers" that the pod squad have? Many have expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz is capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom'ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not - did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing - remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz's bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been "planted" visions like Tess is able to do). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him - Iz, Mikey G and Liz - while being MRd, but none from Tess - his supposed mate. Why?

All of Liz's visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle's healing - which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Not only has she been able to "see into Max's soul," but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing - out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two "strangers" who mention - "We have to get rid of her" - in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional - and if so, WHY?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW seems to confirm somewhat)? And who's eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them - Liz included? Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of - yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to "Run, Lola, Run"? (First scenario being Liz doesn't get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH - and we wondered what Liz would do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? In MTD she warns Max about the granolith and he wonders how she knows.

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived - a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name - Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia's involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was "special," thus, necessitating the early arrival and that "soulmate" discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative - recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to "ancient languages" (e.g., Liz's Blind Date Doug Shellow's major at the UofNM and where the aliens' manual was hidden in the library) and Grandma Claudia's studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz's review of her Grandmother's possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS - WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN"T ANYONE READING GC's BOOK?)

Another major topic of interest is Liz's connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble's wife at the death scene - meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow - an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow - why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad - Max maybe, or Tess - or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections - Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida - the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President?Ummmmm?

And now in MTD, Max and Tess have gone off to New York. Wasn't Liz planning on going to College there?

Liz's ability to "see" into Evil Max/Harding's "soul" again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to "see the evil within." What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says "I thought she was standing in front of me.").

There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the
importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication, SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination - tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus - the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz "complete" the constellation? There were 5 healing stones - Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often - why? Even the communication was done on 5/14 - those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy, and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer's favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents "Potential," while 5 represents "Balance" and "Marriage between Heaven and Earth." Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens' beeper that is a pentagon - 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton's ceiling. Any connection? With MTD we have 5 planets. The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately - 2 as in Max and Liz?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave "map" have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max's visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were "flashed" in the promos for Season 2 - you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, "Run, Lola, Run" was referred to (Surprise) as the story of Liz's life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things "right" - and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it - the same as in the Season 2 promos?

We think that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) - Skins - came from the podsquad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters - but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seem to be confined to their husks. But the Skins and Max's alien predecessor's kind seem to have been from different races. Many of us think that the podsquad's people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? We now know there were other pods planted at the same time - apparently with duplicate podsters, but where and what happened to those pods? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz's family? Was the '47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the "good" aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him - why? And are there another race of aliens (a third race of aliens)? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters - in human form, with human DNA - unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Once again, this would tie in Liz's importance as a human - possibly the chosen human to assist in their survival - the 5th Element (I like this theory - can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien "watching" the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA TicTac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion - how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also - what was with the "visit" during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent - or be present - evil, and blue seems to represent good - though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2??

Harding's connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz - not just in the car, but also in bus after "saving" her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble's lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? Harding did nothing - we know of - to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad - an official "worker bee" - and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Why didn't he give them more information about themselves and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work - part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz's "great opportunity" in Congresswoman Whitaker's office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess - who did not seem to help at all.

Another recent development - the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Finally - dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I've been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.

1903 - James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 - River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 - Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 - Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown
Timeline)
1/15/43 - Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disk like objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 - Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from
Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
1950 - Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 - Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown
Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 - Atherton publishes "Among Us" (Crashdown Timeline)
1957 - Nancy Parker (Liz's Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1958 - Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note - this does not fit with
him being old enough to be in the "Ice Cream Parlor Picture" from 1959 -
unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him
outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 - Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
1964 - Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 - Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 - Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
1979 - Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 - Isabel's birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 - Max's birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 - Kyle, Maria, Alex & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
1984 - Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What
happens to Parker's - the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 - Liz wears the "Cupcake Dress" to school in kindergarten (Crashdown
Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener - maybe they start
early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 - Kyle's mom, Jim Valenti's wife leaves (Wipeout)
1991 - Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline)
[Again, this would be off based on their timeline - Liz would be in 4th
grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the
following year - 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did
not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade - Z]
1991 - UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may
have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 - Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends
until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 - Brody abducted by aliens
1993 - Maria's Dad leaves
1997 - Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
2/14/2000 - Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/21(?)/2000 - Orb found by Max and Liz
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm - Pod Squad set off the communicators - sending a pulse
detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 - Scooby Gang begins 12th grade
9/25/2000 - Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit
10/15 or 25/2000 - Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 - Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn't (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up - someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 - Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
Fall 2000 - Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 - Grant's ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there're an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I'd never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address - just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to sum up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad - Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So -theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz's Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this - if anyone from THE WB reads this - WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general "rules" - NO SPOILERS, but anything "aired" is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Anyone have answers for me???

Here's my question.. IS Max the "original"? Didn't Rath say that Max and the Pod Squad were "the dupes"? Do you think he was right or do you think he was just trying to get tipped off? As far as I'm concerned, Max and the Pod Squad seem MUCh more human that Rath and his crew, but.. maybe it's environmental??

quote:Originally posted by redhawk:
Thank you also to the person who pointed out that Brody's lapses in memory may be from what happened in WO. I thought maybe the writers were hinting at something that may happen in the future, but I think you're right on this one. Another continuity item... Yeah!

What's the deal with the Brody thing here? I know there has to be some significance of his loss of time and the dupes and his abduction, but I can't seem to get my mind going in the right direction!

quote:Originally posted by tp:
I have been driving myself crazy over something that I need you intelligent people to enlighten me????

Why isn't Liz opening up to Max about why she did what she did? Why is she still lying about the whole situtation? (sleeping with Kyle)

My take on EOTW was that they needed to stop the "love making" from happening. That was accomplished. In fact, with FM disappearing, isn't that enough to show to Liz that they (FM and Liz)were successful in pushing PM to Tess? "This is a different world out there now . . . we create our own destiny"

Don't you think that Liz could confide in Max so they together can keep Tess from leaving town?

I don't get it . . . did I miss something???

I don't know, but it's DRIVING me CRAZY! Tell him already!!!!

quote:Originally posted by Metaphysicalgrl:
Was someone congratulating the writers on continuity? We should see this in the next issue of variety...

Obsessed Fan Wanted: Weekly TV show is looking for an obsessed fan to sit in on writing meetings to ensure that continuity is carried over from episode to episode. Qualifications: must have seen each episode a minimum of 10 times, must be detail oriented. Full pay and benefits, which include the opportunity to walk over to the soundstage to bask in Jason Behr's beauty. Please fax your resume to: WEN-EED-HELP or email it to us at 2manywriters@roswell.com.

Sigh, I know that was mean... Frusteration rears it's ugly head.

You're so right! If things don't start tying together SOON? Well, I don't know what I'll do, but it ain't gonna be good!

My take on Max not getting any flashes is the fact his heart IS BROKEN!!! He is not thinking or feeling the way he was feeling in Season 1. He is confused and his brain isn't working properly.

His comment to Liz "I'm giving it back" had two meanings! One was the obvious and the other "you don't want me - I don't want you". Last season, Max would have never hurt Liz that way. "I can't think to far ahead" (same scene) shows that he can't think, period - he is lost without Liz.

Liz is incredibley important to him and without her, he can't cope or deal with things, much less have any flashes!!

You guessed it - I'm a Dreamer!!!!

Can anyone else figure out how Maria has not latched onto this yet? She never said anything about the conversation between Liz and Kyle in the car during wipe-out. The Maria I know would have latched onto that -- and not let go for dear life until she knew everything. What was UP with how Liz was treating Maria in the UFO center in MTD? I think Maria was justified in being upset that Liz didn't tell her that duplicate Michael kissed her. It IS important and it IS relevant. Even though it turned out NOT to be Michael, Liz should've run to tell Maria.

Obviously Liz does want to confide in someone about what happened, or else she wouldn't have said anything to Maria. She would know that to throw Maria a bone like that would mean that Maria wouldn't rest until she knew the whole story.

It's disappointing to see how the writers are portraying the core relationships on the show. Maybe they feel they have to tear it all down before they can build it up again...but there is a way to succesfully write relationships into the sci-fi without compromising the integrity of the characters.

I have come up with two things or something similar to that and it might sound crazy but bare with me I am only 12.

1. Tess and Liz could be the same person. Yeah I know they look diffrent and everything but what if Liz was Tess's human side and Tess Liz's alien side but something happend that cuased them to like split or something.Then Liz would have been in the pod that was leaking becuase it was missing its other side causing Liz to be more human and Tess taking so long to come out of her pod cuase she was still healing from the sepration and Ava got the whole treatment cuasing her to be the way she is now.

2. Why didnt Future Liz go with Future Max to talk to Present day Max? She could have told him what to do I think she is pretty capable of getting Max to stop loving her past self. So Future Max wouldnt have to dissapper alone and who Knew if Future Liz died when he was down there?

I told you it was crazy but it is worth a try to think it is possible for these two items to happen so I want you guys to prove me wrong on this one or back me up but it was a thought that hanted me for awhile.

Mimi,

strawBEHRyAPPLEsuace lover

Trip

Obviously Liz does want to confide in someone about what happened, or else she wouldn't have said anything to Maria. She would know that to throw Maria a bone like that would mean that Maria wouldn't rest until she knew the whole story.

It's disappointing to see how the writers are portraying the core relationships on the show. Maybe they feel they have to tear it all down before they can build it up again...but there is a way to succesfully write relationships into the sci-fi without compromising the integrity of the characters.

I really can't figure it out. I guess it's the same way Max has closed himself off to everyone, Liz is as well. The Rath kissing Liz WAS very important! I'd want to know if I were Maria! And the conversation with Kyle would typically provoke all sorts of questions from Old Maria. What's going on!?!?

quote:Originally posted by ~* Mimi *~:

1. Tess and Liz could be the same person. Yeah I know they look diffrent and everything but what if Liz was Tess's human side and Tess Liz's alien side but something happend that cuased them to like split or something.Then Liz would have been in the pod that was leaking becuase it was missing its other side causing Liz to be more human and Tess taking so long to come out of her pod cuase she was still healing from the sepration and Ava got the whole treatment cuasing her to be the way she is now.

This is an AWESOME theory! Gosh, don't I feel dumb that I'm 26 and didn't even think about that for a second! I kept asking myself last night what was that grey goo coming from the leaking pod? what was the grey goo coming from the leaking pod? WHAT was that GREY GOO coming from the LEAKING POD!? Liz.. essence.. humanism.. just HOW sci-fi will JK and RM get on this one!?

quote:2. Why didnt Future Liz go with Future Max to talk to Present day Max? She could have told him what to do I think she is pretty capable of getting Max to stop loving her past self. So Future Max wouldnt have to dissapper alone and who Knew if Future Liz died when he was down there?

I DID think about this! I wondered why they both couldn't go and seperate and deal with the Present selves on their own. Maybe it'd be too difficult for each of them to watch together? Or maybe the Granolith could only travel one and they figured Max was the stronger of the two? Or maybe Max put his foot down and simply said no because it was so dangerous?? I don't know..

Anyway, I'm off for the holiday, so have a great few days and don't have TOO many insights before Monday. I'm already going to have TOO many things to do when I come back! Bye!!

EVID-I must tell you I forgot to comment on your 2 of diamonds analogy I liked it very much, Evid remember how we use to wonder if Liz would get sick if she were away from Max for too long well it looks to me like the opposite is happening, Liz looks great(the writers inconsistency here?) and MAX on the hand(almost looks sickly(lost too much weight) and sullen and sad and he has become TOOO STUPID from last season) HUH.

METAPHYSICAL-I agree with you about Liz not telling Maria about the kiss with Rath not knowing it was Rath(I think they did this deliberately to cause a WEDGE between Liz and Maria to delay her from asking or sharing anything about Liz with Max) I think this is really disgusting too, I do not know why WRITERS CANNOT PRESERVE INTEGRITY OF CHARACTERS and THEIR RELATIONSHIPS in a MEANINGFUL CREATIVE WAY without resorting to this crap. And last season Maria would have been all over that Liz and Kyle conversation like a fly on ....!!!! We know this. Things that make you go hmmmmmm!!!!

EVID-scary thought you are suggesting about AVA but nothing that happens THIS season would be totally surprising, unfortunately I really hate feeling this way about ROSWELL.

I have been still waiting for them to answer the question why MAX would trust Nesado who kidnapped the girl he was in love with last season???? We never did get an answer to that one either, like I said things that make you go hmmmmmmm!!!!!

Brody said he feels like when he was abducted - I wouldn't be surprised if he disappears again. Although many things in RoswellWorld have a built-in question that will probably only be answered in Season 5, some of them seem to foreshadow an event closer than that. This seems to be it!

You want Liz to tell Max. I don't. Max feels unconditional love for her. The only natural progression of events here has to be that he forgives her, tells her how, although he doesn't understand why she did it, she must have had a powerful reason, that he believes in her, trusts she had a good reason for sleeping with Kyle and that, no matter what, he loves her and wants her back because without her, he is nothing. Unconditional love is that: unconditional. Only then, I expect he'll touch the 4-picture strip and get flashes from FMax, etc. I don't think he'll find out the truth from anybody else. And boy, am I looking forward to that cry both of them are going to have in each other's arms when she finally breaks down and confesses!!! Then and only then, Max will get his balance back, will start to think straight and resume his quest for leadership and knowledge!

Regarding the job as Advisor on Continuity to the Writers: I feel I have a better chance at getting the position than you do: I'll do it for free! No need for salaries, fringe benefits, nothing! I'LL DO IT FOR FREE! Do you hear, PTB?

So according to this Ava is Eve, not Lilith. What does that mean for Tess? Some see the Dupes as being opposites which would indeed make Tess Lilith. And some see them as sharing common traits (like Isabel/Lonnie keeping the peace between the other two) so that would make Tess Eve. What do you all think? Is this interpreation/meaning of the name Ava right? If I had to choose i'd definitely see Tess as more of an Eve.

I have come up with two things or something similar to that and it might sound crazy but bare with me I am only 12.

1. Tess and Liz could be the same person. Yeah I know they look diffrent and everything but what if Liz was Tess's human side and Tess Liz's alien side but something happend that cuased them to like split or something.Then Liz would have been in the pod that was leaking becuase it was missing its other side causing Liz to be more human and Tess taking so long to come out of her pod cuase she was still healing from the sepration and Ava got the whole treatment cuasing her to be the way she is now.

2. Why didnt Future Liz go with Future Max to talk to Present day Max? She could have told him what to do I think she is pretty capable of getting Max to stop loving her past self. ...
Hey Mimi,
And all us old fogeys are honored to have you grace us with your ageless insights.

While Liz & Tess are not the same person in the physical sense, I think they do represent the two sides of Max's perfect partner. All of us have been so into the physical and the jealousy thing, that I don't think we've looked at it that way.

But I think Liz knows that if she tells Max, he will be totally in love with her again and Tess will leave. So she won't do that UNLESS its absolutely necessary.

Bluecornmoon, I knew you'd have an idea: quote:Only then, I expect he'll touch the 4-picture strip and get flashes from FMax, etc.
Willo42, So maybe Ava is the "Eve" and Tess is the "Lilith."

BTW, Lonnie calling herself "Juliet" was probably a reference to the Kvar thing. Maybe Aliens are by instinct led to find their Romeos and Juliets from outside their clans--perhaps this leads to the higher evolution and powers that come with it. Hence, Max found Liz. Then the 5 planet thing would be the political result of all of this extra terrestrial marrying.

I really believe Liz was intentionally shot, but am having trouble figuring out who would have done it.

If it was someone in their current time, then for them to know the influence that Liz has on Max, she would have to be at least half-alien. Otherwise, I don't think they would have realized that she and Max would have such a connection.

If they came from the future, who are they? Skins? Do the skins find the granolith at some point in the future, and come back to kill Liz?

Someone else had mentioned that it seems odd the way Liz froze just before being shot - like possibly she was mind-warped. The "regular" skins are not capable of that.

I hate to re-hash something that has already been discussed, but this mystery is really bugging me.

OMG GreceKel- you are so right about Courtney asking Michael, so how do you feel about piercings! I totally missed this one, boy am I slipping. So, is it possible that Courtney knew Rath? She told Michael she'd been looking for him for 50 years. Perhaps she met Rath but instinctively knew he wasn't a part of the true royal 4. Or, maybe Courtney had been working with the dupes -feeding them information about our Roswellian pod squad working to achieve her ultimate goal to have Michael on the throne?
If Courtney was the information link this is where the yearbook may have come from as well as the info that Max and Liz had been dateing and also that Philip Evans was dad (Lonnie knows this when she's caught in Max's room)

I agree with all who are thinking Tess and Ava are with the wrong group.

Brody loves pepperjack cheese, is this his hot and spicey dietary quirck?

Rath and Lonnie's behavior reminded me alot of Harding's. They are cold, calculating and have little regaurd for others. Then of course theres that Rath/Liz kiss that put me in mind of how eager Harding was to kiss Liz.

Metaphysicalgrl- ROTFLMAO about the WEN-EED-HELP job!!!

I think Max is using a double standard. When Liz saw him kissing Tess in the rain he told her to "have faith in me, in us", and she did. So, why is he not living by this same motto? Max is not stupid, he knows Liz was trying to trick him into being with Tess (wouldn't you think he'd have wondered if the Kyle thing had been a Tessovision) and now Liz tells him to be carefull with the granolith info when he's in NYC. Come on Max, add up the clues and "see" that Liz is the same person she's always been! I maintain one good kiss between M/L and no verbal explanations will be necessary!

I was thinking if Ava had been the one in the leaking pod that maybe her abilities had been underdeveloped and that's why all she did was yell no when Rath and Lonnie did Zan in. Their powers were too much for her to combat.

Just thinking about all the interesting info about Lilith - which of course made me think of the Lilith fair - which made me think of Sarah McLaughlin - which made me think of FEAR which for me is where Roswell began. It's just one big circle (hey, Circle, that's a Sarah McLaughlin song too!)

Willow42 - Chava, eating of the TREE OF KNOWLEDGE hmmmmmm remember what the indian woman tells Liz that Atherton's pendent means - TREE OF KNOWLEDGE!

I think the name Rath is an interesting choice because...WRATH means - 1) intense anger, rage, furry 2) any action of vengeance.

Well, I guess I've babbled on long enough.

I hope all of you have a wonderful Thanksgiving!

Agent Starstruck signing off for tonight.

I shall believe!

I agree with all who are thinking Tess and Ava are with the wrong group.

Brody loves pepperjack cheese, is this his hot and spicey dietary quirck?

Rath and Lonnie's behavior reminded me alot of Harding's. They are cold, calculating and have little regaurd for others. Then of course theres that Rath/Liz kiss that put me in mind of how eager Harding was to kiss Liz...
Hey Starstruck, Great post!
Building on your line of thought: Rath sure seems like he wanted to be boss and that had something to do with his willingness to kill Zan. Maybe he intends to do the same to Max.

And did you all notice how they switched from the shot of the mega-pierced dupes to Brody's ear?

PS: When are you going to become one of my agents????

maxcedo
maxcedo@hotmail.com

http://www.ulink.net/plum/Roswell/

It rambles of to a can't find the URL page. Any suggestions? Help please.

It rambles of to a can't find the URL page. Any suggestions? Help please.

The coding was not correct for the link. It is now fixed. It wasn't your fault. Just an honest mistake with an extra period.

maxcedo

Actually bluecornmoon, thanks for answering. I have been busy playing maxcedo as you may have figured out. LOL

The reason why Max and Michael do not recognize FM & FMi as the shooters is because they shapeshifted into such ugly creatures that they cannot be recognized. Also, the one shooter says to Maria, "No get out of here." Which is something that Michael would and has said to Maria before (or is it after?) Thanks for letting Kristine know, because my hands have been tied up. (I'm into alien bonding you know.)

Why was Max so attracted to her? Soulmates from different world?

Why? Essence? The bond is strong, this is what makes Roswell so special.

As always enjoy reading this thread, amazing the way people think, it's great, although I still believe in the Indians choice of understanding life.

Human & Alien. There was a reason why Max's people chose Earth. The brillant minds knew. Is it the matter of HOPE for their people.

Take Care, DeeDee

There is one Liz, she resides in Roswell. Go figure.

DeeDee

bluecornmoon: I do not think that Liz come up with this plan. Remember, version #1 of the timelines is that the shooting never happened, and Max and Liz never meet, the alien mythology is never completed.

When the shooter says "We have to get rid of her." The her is not Liz. The "her" is TESS. They are going back in time so he never falls for Destiny. He has always been attracted to Liz, so it's natural for him to go back to a time where they were both adult enough to handle the facts of their relationship, but young enough to have their relationship grow naturally, or as naturally as possible. This timing would be critical, as Tess does show up not too much longer.

If Liz did instigate the plan, to change timeline one, then at some point in timeline one, she learned about the aliens and she learned about the granolith. In the Roswell High Books, Liz O. says that she and Max had been lab partners forever. I think it's strange that they would always be in the same class, every semester and always be assigned as lab partners. (But I come from a school the graduated 500+ seniors a year, I'm sure Roswell is a bit smaller.)

Anyway, for Liz to come up with the plan, I don't think the shooter that said, "We have to get rid of her," would have said it that way. He probably would have said, "We have to make this work. For all our sakes."

Also, I've been thinking about the seating arrangement of the Crashdown Cafe that morning.

This graphic is poor, but I think it would help.

Max

I when making the graphic, I suddenly realized that Liz does infact, complete the "V".

Max--------------FM

----Michael----FMi

----------Liz

Do you see the "V". Scary!

First, the bar is actually on the otherside, but behind the fourth booth on the left side of the wall, is a fork/knife/coffee storage area, and that is why I thought the bar was over there.

If you were standing in the back of the CD looking towards the doors, on the right side are three booths, the shooters sit in the first booth from the windows. On the left side of the CD there are four booths, Max and Michael sit in the first booth. Behind the last or 4th booth is the fork/knife/coffee station and a mini storage area. You can see the ketchup.

Then the bar is on the right side. I think there are a total of 7 barstools. There are two seats that face the back of the CD and there are five ? seats the face the right side of the CD.

You can pretty much draw the "V". The left side being Max-Michael-Liz. The right side beining Shooter #1-Shooter #2-Liz.

IMPORTANT THOUGHTS

The bar takes up slightly more than half the back area. Where Liz is standing half way in and out of the conclave fork/knife area. The bar is a high bar. I am not a marksman, but I think this shot would have required aim. It looks like the bullet would have had to go up and over the bar, and then lower itself to hit Liz's abdomen. Thus proving intention to shot her.

If there are five ruling planets, and the "V" Constellation represents their unity or connection, then does that mean.. Michael may be from a different planet than Max? It would mean that the shooters cannot be FM and FMi as I set out to prove.

Would it mean Liz is an alien? I think it might, if the symbolism is there.

shocker-- I am starting to change my thinking about Liz's 100% human status, but I'm not there yet.

I would like to know if you think that this is symbolism... Or has Qfanny just jumped off her rocker again...?

Zero I bet you thought we've discussed this scene at every angle, maybe this is a new one for the books.

If the Skins are just here for the granolith and don't really want to be here on Earth, what prompts them in Future Max's timeline to decide to take over the planet? Do they find out that humanity is supposed to play a pivotal role in their downfall so they try to end the world to prevent this?

I've always suspected that Future Max left a lot out of his version of the future. The world ending because Tess leaves just does not make sense. There has to be more to it than that. Either he didn't tell the whole truth or he never knew it.

I just hope the pod squad discover how important the humans and Liz are before the Skins do.

As a parentheses, I don't think the Skins are to be blamed for everything. I think the "evil ones" Mom spoke about may be another race, soon to be introduced. I also think they have bening watchers, energy beings, Angels if you will, who are here to make sure things happen as they should (SO47 graylings?). The invisible beings that have been showing up lately are either of the two!

Having said that, regarding the shooting: It happened in September 1999! Tess showed up in March or April 2000! When the two shooters said "We have to get rid of her", their tone of voice had a sense of urgency that denoted immediate action, a we-have-to-do-it-today-or-else tone! Not "let's plan this for 6 months from now"! On the other hand, I can see Max and Michael "fighting", not only because... it's Max and Michael! but also in order to make it sound plausible, to "stage" the shooting for Valenti's benefit. (I can't believe I'm trying to convince YOU of this - only on RoswellWorld !).

We must accept some undeniable truths: All Twilonians have time travel capabilities (otherwise, Earth wouldn't be so popular of late)! (They all want the Granolith for purposes bigger than that!) If the shooters are Skins/EA, then they traveled to the past to get rid of Liz because she is a. a Human detrimental to their health, or b. a Twilonian detrimental to their health:

If a Human, then they had one of two reasons to shoot her:

One: they wanted to get rid of Liz because they wanted what Future Max did - a chance to redo their future because Liz/Max have proven detrimental to their plans! Are we to assume that the Skins/EA are so stupid that they would try to get rid of her when Max is around? They had to know who he was. If they knew enough about Liz they knew what Max looked like too. If a mistake was made, then they would have come back again and again to try to get rid of her! They haven't! That's not the reason. Which leads us to...

Two: they shoot Liz so that Max may save her, thus establishing a relationship. Max would fall so in love with her that he wouldn't pay attention to Tess. Tess would grow so disenchanted with her Desssstiny that she would leave Roswell soon after, thus rendering the powerful Royal Four so weak that they wouldn't win the war? Okay, it could work but Future Max denied them of that.. so, why haven't they come back to undo what FMax fixed? That's not it either!

Which leads us to: b. A Twilonian. If they shot her, it was for one of two reasons:

One: She IS the Fifth Element, only she is not from Earth but from Twilo, and was sent separately from the Royal Four, hidden away, because of her importance. Again, why haven't they tried to kill her again? They didn't pay attention to her in Copper Summit, maybe because they don't know who she is yet? But then, with time travel, they should, shouldn't they? Unless it's not the Skins who shot her but somebody else.

Two: She is truly the fourth podster and Nacero planted Tess and Ava for one of two reasons (I know, I know... I'm giving myself a headache too! ):
a. to protect Liz (saving her in the house of mirrors, trying to get rid of her in the pod chamber not because she didn't "belong" but because she "belonged" too much?);
b. because he is bad and wanted an impostor - The Evil Shape Shifter , in which case HE would have sent Beavis & Butthead to do the deed, but then.. why didn't he try again? lack of time? not really!

Things to take into consideration: That little fixation of our beloved leader when he was 8! And... if it was Max/Michael who did the shooting, it doesn't matter that she is Human or Twilonian - it works either way!

In conclusion (Thank you God!): I think it was Max / Michael who shoot her. If Liz and Serena do not find a way around it, (considering that quantum mechanics are there! then - fine, they sent delegates, but the action WAS, most definitely, initiated by them/Liz!).

In the words of one Maria DeLuca: you are a genius Nancy Jeanne! And, of course, I will continue assuring everybody that I always knew Liz was it! (which I did, I really did!).

BTW, when Liz disappeared, the noise she made was different to what we heard when the Sheriff, Nick or Maria left!

I do think it was someone from the future coming back to try to change the future. Possibly in the future, Liz and Max were married, and they had a child which would be the heir to the throne. Maybe someone was trying to prevent that from happening.

(Sorry if this post twice)

Great thoughts on the shooter theories. I don't have the pilot episode to watch, but i was thinking about somethings FM said to Liz in EOTW episode. Did he tell her that there relationship (them being together at that period in time)would cause the basic end of the world and the death of everyone including the Royal Four. Maybe the shooters are part of the of Max's race, army alliance, followers under his command that went back in time as plan "B". If FM could not stop their relationship, then maybe the next plan was to stop it before it even happened. This would probably occur however after the death of FM. I don't think a future Max and a future Michael would travel back in time to kill Liz, knowing that present Max and Micheal are in the cafe too. That is almost defeating the purpose, knowing that Max would save her life.

Has anyone been keeping up with me, I think I lost myself a little.

Anyways the point being that i don't believe that it was the "skins" they could have just killed Max. And the future podster just couldn't be that harsh. FM died inside all over again when he saw Liz and Kyle together with the look on present Max's face.

O man, this show is getting so complicated like some sci-fi soap opera. I just want it to be simplier again when everyone was in love!!!!!

Chicatron
I am becoming to believe that Liz is not an alien
Dreamer

You said: "Maybe the shooters are part of the of Max's race, army alliance, followers under his command that went back in time as plan "B". If FM could not stop their relationship, then maybe the next plan was to stop it before it even happened. This would probably occur however after the death of FM."

Remember FLiz and FMax decided to go back to the past in 25 minutes, out of desperation, because Michael died! There was no plan for that and, I think, the last survivors where M/L. There wouldn't have been anybody left to do the deed!

You also said: "I don't think a future Max and a future Michael would travel back in time to kill Liz, knowing that present Max and Micheal are in the cafe too. That is almost defeating the purpose, knowing that Max would save her life."

Yes, it would. That was the purpose of the whole thing: to force Max to come out from behind the tree! To start the ball rolling!

Also: "Anyways the point being that i don't believe that it was the "skins" they could have just killed Max."

Nope. They can't kill Max yet. They need him because they either need his bloodline to assure themselves the throne, or he is the only one who can work the Granolith or the key to work it is inside his head or whatever but if it was that easy, they would have killed Max a loooong time ago!

Also: "I am becoming to believe that Liz is not an alien".

On the contrary, my dear Watson, this little conversation just assured me that I must spend all my energies in making sure QFanny is convinced of the contrary: Liz is an Alien!!!

shocker--I am starting to change my thinking about Liz's 100% human status, but I'm not there yet....
No! Say it isn't so! Qfanny, maybe we can start a chapter of Alien Liz Anonymous for you. **Sigh*** well, it's probably destined that one of us would have to go over to the other side.

Anyway, on the shooters: I don't think they can be FMs because 1) Mi & Max don't shapeshift and 2)Max would never hurt Liz. But shapeshifters do shapeshift. I am thinking it was Nasedo and TicTac (or some other shapeshifters) arguing and that they really did intend to kill Liz to prevent the Tess problem, but they failed because Max wouldn't let her die.

(...)

In the words of one Maria DeLuca: you are a genius Nancy Jeanne! And, of course, I will continue assuring everybody that I always knew Liz was it! (which I did, I really did!).[B]
Someone should let my boss in on this genius secret Norah. Does anyone need a billing clerk for their utility company?

BTW---After sleeping in this shooting "V" idea, I've decided the symbolism is not there after all. So, Liz may complete the "V", but the shooting has nothing to do with it.

I like the Max/Michael as shooters idea too bluecornmoon.

I forgot, is not an

Remeber in Wipeout when she picked up the skin it desentegrated ( or dimolished or what every I am in a bad mood right now so I cant spell right....) . How can you guys miss out on all the small things and say she isnt a alien , I mean it seems like you guys are saying that there shouldnt have even been a Max and Liz to begin with.If Liz hadnt been shot that day and if Max hadnt saved her then her alien side wouldnt have awakened.

So I am saying to all you guys who are starting to loose faith in Liz being alien or Half Alien to not give it up. That is why we are here to look up if she is one of them or does she atleast have a chance.

I will be back I got to go look for my sister.....

Mimi

strawBEHRyAPPLEsauce lover

Obsessed Fan Wanted: Weekly TV show is looking for an obsessed fan to sit in on writing meetings to ensure that continuity is carried over from episode to episode.
Qualifications: must have seen each episode a minimum of 10 times, must be detail oriented. Full pay and benefits, which include the opportunity to walk over to the soundstage to bask in Jason Behr's beauty. Please fax your resume to: WEN-EED-HELP or email it to us at: 2manywriters@roswell.com.

Sigh, I know that was mean... Frusteration rears it's ugly head.
ROTFLMAO !!!
Does the same address work for the science consultant position?

No.

If Liz told Max, he absolutely would not believe her. Look, she's stuck a knife in his back, and twisted it. Then she says she wants to be friends. Maybe I have an odd perspective on this, as one of the few guys on the board, but I gotta tell ya, this is not How to Win Friends and Influence People. Quite the opposite! When Liz says she doesn't want Max to hate her... the look on his face says she isn't getting that wish.

And before anyone flames me, let me point out that I think Liz is adorable, and I wish I could find a gal so sweet. {Well, maybe a little older... }

While the smart money is on Maria finally worming the truth out of Liz, I'll put my money on Kyle. I'm not sure how; he may confess to Michael, since they both know how it's hurt their friends. Maria may go after Kyle, since Liz won't talk. Max may do something hostile, and provoke Kyle to blurt it out. Kyle is being very philosophical at this point in his life, and telling the truth is something he will find unavoidable.

Or maybe Liz will quietly go nuts. If so, perhaps there will be a new psychiatrist in town. One who likes candy.

Reggie: I'll repeat what I said before. The only way for Max to find out is if he gets a flash. The correct order of things will be for him to forgive her first because his heart, his brain, his everything tells him that he can't go on like this. That he has to get her back into his life or else... he'll explode! He'll tell her he wants her back, it'll be awkward, they'll be in her room, Daddy will call her out for a minute, he'll be left alone in the room, will look at the pictures Future Max and she have been pawing at in two episodes and... tadaaa... he'll find out the truth!

BTW, are you going to accept my invitation to come to NY?

Oh, now that makes sense! We know that Harding has been keeping an eye on Max for a while - witness the big box of photos. He probably realized long ago how important she was to Max. If he decided Liz had to go, to make room for Tess, then he would have done her in without a second thought.

Why not use the "silver handprint"? He didn't want Max to realize an alien connection to Liz's unfortunate demise; plus it would have drawn the alien hunters' attention to Max's vicinity. I still don't understand his reasoning for kidnapping Liz in M2tM though.

Liz is not an

bluecorn, I really love the idea of Max getting the clue by touching the string of pics and getting a flash of FM. I don't care about the proper order of things, though, I just want it to be that way. And if it has already been shot a different way, well, writers, eat your hearts out.

bluecorn, I really love the idea of Max getting the clue by touching the string of pics and getting a flash of FM. I don't care about the proper order of things, though, I just want it to be that way. And if it has already been shot a different way, well, writers, eat your hearts out.

I'd rather he touches Liz, and gets: 1. FMax telling her she has to make him fall out of love with her, 2. her crying, unable to go any further, and 3. her overhearing Maria about Michael. Once Max realizes that she did it because he told her to, that should disconcert him enough to give her a chance to explain. Otherwise, he's got better things to do than listen to a back-stabbing .....

But you're right; the only thing he can trust from Liz is a "flash". Only flashes have to be true; anything else could be another lie. (Remember, the "We slept together" is a lie!)

This would in fact be a beautiful scene! I just can't understand how Max let Liz tell him what she knew about the Granolith and didn't interrogate her on the spot. I mean, I know he is angry and hurt, but come on.

I had an observation while re-watching Harvest. At the end of the eppy when they were showing all the husks destroyed - I could've sworn that they showed Nicholas's husk -- apparently undestroyed. Did anyone else happen to catch this or are my eyes crossing out of frustration and confusion?

Reggie: So glad I was able to make you laugh!!

I called the Roswell office and they ARE hiring a Sci-Fi expert. They told me to pass along this number and email for all those of you interested: Please call FAN-SMA-RTER or email: Behrlypassedscience@roswell.com
Or for easy online application, you can go to www.notbuyingitareyou.com

Good luck and happy holidays!!!

{~}:}

I wish Max would find out the truth. Max seems to be losing his mind with every episode. What happened to the old Max?

Well gotta go.

Remember is half

QFanny/Bluecornmoon/Shapeshifter - I am really enjoying the speculation/theories on the shooting. Keep it up! :-)

Reggie - Although I will defer to your male perspective - I realy HOPE Max would believe Liz. I think he knows in his heart that she is lying right now (confrontation scene in Harvest) - also she knows about the granolith - which I think would give her credibility.
If they would just TOUCH again - surely he would be able to SEE into her soul once again <sigh>

Finally - check this out http://www.thewb.com/roswell/primer/
It is a sesaon one "primer" with quicktime video and commentary on each episode by JK.
VERY interesting - and I am thinking..... Liz is an alien!!!!! :-) :-) I watched the episodes from Sexual Healing on this morning and it was really thought-provoking. I noticed ALOT that I had overlooked. Interestingly - the commentary on "Destiny" is not up yet - I cant help but wonder if something is going to be revealed in MITC that makes them unable to air the commentary yet. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

So, will Roswellian history repeat itself again? Notice that in BB Liz did not spill her story to relieve her own pain--only to protect those to whom she is loyal.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I dunno - maybe I have eaten too much turkey :-)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Just wanted to wish every agent in the US a happy holiday. To those her aren't from around here everyday is a day to celebrate.

God bless

Hope everyone had a great T-day.

--shapeshifter aka qfanny's dupe?

the parkers could be the ones that holds the key to operate the granolith, and it's in safe keeping. w/ that, the granolith could have been transported to the chamber and kept the original here. do maybe draw attention away from the podsters, the dupes were sent to the other side of the continent. where else could you get all the exposure but ny? they are making themselves known and the podsters are secluded in roswell. the podsters being in roswell, keeps them in close distance to the granolith and to liz, the fifth element. the key to the granolith was probably passed down to generation to generation and i think presently, liz has it.

just rambling.

THANKS to SHAPESHIFTER for starting the thread!! I don't know when I will be back on-line, so til then - keep theorizing - just not too much or I will never get it all into the intro!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

this thread to bits!! Great to see how every is chipping in to unravell the mystery surrounding Liz!

So, I have to put in my bit!! I did some research and found out that Max'z dupe's name Zan means 'nourisher' in Hebrew. Nourisher could mean supplier, sustainer, cultivator, sopporter and comforter! Tess's dupe's name Ava means 'Life' or 'living beign' in Hebrew but check this out. It also stands for Eve and in that context her name means 'temptress'. There i like this whole debate surrounding that name!! Strange hey. Wanna know something even more strange, well, Iz's dupe's name is really weird coz the meaning of the name has been lost!! Are these clues coz they are really strange!!

Anyway, gotta go!! Hope that someone can make sense of this!

Max & Liz forver!

vicous~critter

Hey guys, HAPPY TURKEY DAY

I know I have been gone for a while but I had to drop in to see what was up. I will never be able to catch up on all the reading.

Did anyone think that maybe Liz might have a dupe too?

I know, that's crazy. Oh well, I was just wondering if anyone has played with that idea yet.

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

Shapeshifter, can you explain the "memory" from FM? This sounds very interesting. (I apologize if you've already discussed this.)

Ree99

P.S. Anybody got Rolaids?

Anyway, we'll be waiting for you, Zero!
And I agree that Liz & Co. are going to have to rescue Tess & Max. Maybe Tess will finally bond with Liz, and then Liz & Max can live happily ever after. Unless they kill off Tess & keep Ava?

quote:Originally posted by ree99:
Shapeshifter, can you explain the "memory" from FM?
This would be a science fiction concept. I'm suggesting that although the Podsters aren't fortune tellers, they could get something like a flash from the future if this life is a re-run. I'm not explaining it very well because it's really just the germ of a theory. Maybe someone else can fill in the gaps? In my example Max would have "recognized" Liz when he first saw her because she was crucial to the podsters' survival.

Until then here is what I've put together regarding the 2 of Diamonds.

The number 2: represents both balance and the passage of time. In Taoist belief the cosmos is made up of two forces--yin and yang--which, although in opposition to each other, are also complementary; represents the two sexes, it can also signify easy life; ambivalent symbol of duality, both parts must be perfectly balanced in order to avoid disharmony.

The suit of Diamonds: symbolizes the seasons of warmth and light; represents feminie power; the King of Diamonds is the king of fire; the Queen represents the fuel which feeds the fire; the knave(Jack) is a warrior; diamonds can be associated with the Tarot Pentacles suit signifying earthly matter, money, courage and energy; in fortune-telling they foretell spitefulness and annoyance.

If someone could let me know what he had to begin with I can give the symbolizime behind it, at least according to this book. Thanks. OH, and Happy Thanksgiving!

PHILLIP: I fold. I know better.

ALEX'S DAD: Ha. Too rich for my blood.

JEFF: What are you hidin', Max? Got some power over these guys...makes 'em do exactly what you want? Well, I call. Full house. Jacks and eights.

(Max's hand would have beat Mr. Parker's hand, but he changes one of the Aces to a 2 so Mr. Parker would win)

MAX: 2 pair. You win.

JEFF: That was a good bluff. But I saw through you.Lots of possible double entendres.

(In the same hand were two other aces: spades and clubs. The club symbol has 3 lobes; the spade, 1. Another 3 + 1 reference?)

There has been much play with diamonds throughout season 1. For example, a wall hanging with 3 diamonds at the Evans house, where M/M/I hang out, and 1 more at the cafe, often shown near Liz. More examples are cited on Rosta's Symbol thread (p3, near the bottom). http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum3/HTML/000381-3.html

For example, a symbol like this is seen briefly behind Michael in the morgue of the White Room. [Except that the actual symbol has numbers or blanks in the colored boxes, not the words shown below. (Note added 11/24)]

That four-diamond shape (usually without the colors) kept turning up all year. It's even embossed on the sheriff's couch.

Just had to comment on the depth of perception this thread has, and say that I admire your views and hope that whoever is in charge of the storyline of Roswell - reads this thread!

esp. the intro

NB.

PS. you all must be/have been incredibly good English Lit students!

Starstruck mentioned the symbolism about Max changing the RED roses to WHITE roses and said trading LOVE for PEACE which I think was a good analogy, but how about LIZ changing her RED skin for YVONNE WHITE? Would that also not make some sense?

Has anyone else noticed that ALEX was wearing a NY sweatshirt in the WHITE ROOM episode and Destiny I believe and in the SURPRISE eppy, Courtney says to ALEX chill NYPD---BLUE!!!!! Is this foreshadowing that ALEX has some role to play in the future events in NY, will he be an abductee not unlike BRODY DAVIS(if he can be believed)?

Also did anyone else notice in SUMMER of 47 Maria says to Michael about letting him borrow the JETTA--I am only doing this because I regret not saying goodbye to BREEPA DELUCA(Brody Davis?) Same initials-how come? Also same initials as the Blind Date episode title.

This is the promo for MITC frome the WB site - look at the last image that falshes - TWO pods connected by metal backwards C's!

For those of you new on the thread - tess had a ring with this symbol on it - and Courtney wore a shirt with the same image.

How long until Monday???????

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Starbox: In regard to yesterday's post about the flashes of Liz as a child from SH, I can't freeze frame on my VCR, but I like your idea about Liz playing bride. That scene with her putting on the lipstick bothered me, too, especially since it's followed by Max momentarily stopping the kissing with Liz in the eraser room. But it becomes apparent later that what he flashed on was Liz's shower fantasy.

Also, thanks for pointing out the two-pod symbol. Looks like mitosis, right? Or the same way twins are formed when the fertilized egg splits (podsters, Dupes). Although how that would fit in with Courtney, I don't know. Now if TPTB can keep their heads together to drop symbols and signs like this over several episodes, why can't they do something simple like *not* having Liz say the pocket knife was a Christmas present. That sloppines is still sticking in my craw.

GraceKel: I thought Maria was saying, "Gramma DeLuca", which would make sense since Michael was talking about spending time with the old soldier.

I just watched MTD last night. Just can't seem to shake the image of Max leaving Liz's window.

Here's my twenty cents on the whole deal:

I cannot let go of the idea that Liz and Max are a couple (yeah, I'm a die-hard Dreamer), and yet, Max has to go to NY with Tess - it's an alien summit afterall, and I think he had to make a clean break because, in his heart, he may be afraid that he may not come back ... though I know he will It's just that he wants to make sure the loose ends are taken care of and it's easier to say good-bye to Liz the hard way rather than to leave her pining. Love hurts.

BTW, did anyone else notice in "Harvest" that Liz is wearing a silver band on her left hand? [You'll see it when the P'Squad is in Whittaker's office, right before she calls the UFL.] Was this just her way of being "married" to the once and Future Max? Was it, perhaps, her way to 'tell' Max she's not available anymore?

And, now to the meat of this post: I think that Liz, being Liz, will have to tell Max - after he has a flash of FM. Don't know how, don't know when, but there will be a revealing image of FM for Max and he'll ask Liz. Remember in SH how Liz could not stand to NOT tell Alex about the aliens? I don't think she'll be able to NOT tell Max [or maybe Maria, even] about why she did what she had to do to save the world.

Okay, so, as stated above, I'm a die-hard Dreamer, and if I were writing an ep., I'd make sure that Max and Liz talked about it and with the entire P'Squad, make sure that Tess knew of her importance to the Squad, but that her place isn't necessarily with Max.

Okay, now that I have that off my chest, I can have breakfast!

LOL! I know see that this "V" plan idea wasn't that great anyway... Thanks for grounding me.

If you want to search the sign for more possible meanings, note the following:

The sign is a standard form for warning about chemical hazards -- numbers in the various boxes express the type and degree of hazard. There is a code -- for example a 3 in the blue box would mean "...avoid skin contact..." For the rest of the code, see (for example)
http://www.orcbs.msu.edu/Chemical/nfpa/nfpa.html

On the sign in question, I think there was a 3 in the yellow box, which was the easiest to see. (I couldn't tell what numbers might have been in the other boxes.)

At the same time there was a 3 on Michael's shirt. As if to contradict Harding saying "I have four of you to watch now." This hallway sign made me wonder if it was being suggested that one of those four had a different agenda.

A similar sign was in The Morning After:

I was rewatching MTD, and I noticed some interesting shots that included signs. Yes, as someone mentioned, when the dupes first walk down the steps at UFO museum, there is a Royal Crown machine. Then the " Are they still here? " sign, then the Director's Office, when Rath and Max come out after talking, then the " Who are they? " sign when our squad is looking at the NY squad.

A couple other things I noticed - when Max and Rath are talking, Michael and Lonnie, then Isabelle and Lonnie are talking. Tess is standing alone, and they don't show Ava at all. Any significance? Also, can anyone see what the poster in Max's room says? The one that is a picture of a wheel, and is directly in between Max and Lonnie when they are talking.

Maybe nothing important, just thought I'd throw them out there.

Right after Rath and Zan have the argument, Rath and Lonnie exchange a look. Tess catches it and looks from one to the other, nervously.

It was like they had it worked out before-hand. This doesn't answer any questions, just makes more. But I am sure that I saw it.

Re: Liz shooters. QFanny, you said Liz couldn't have sent M/M because, without the shooting, Max and Liz wouldn't exist. You are right! However, one of the axioms of sci-fi is precisely that Catch-22 situation, in which the people who changed the future are the cause of that change by going into the past! It is acceptable, even required at times! Liz could have sent, in this timeline, Michael and Max to shoot her. As for the comment about how Max would never hurt Liz, of course, not. But this was different - this was necessary and I'm sure, if they are indeed the shooters and we get to see that fateful scene from another point of view, we will see that they come back, in another shape and form, to witness the aftermath of their actions (to make sure everything went alright!). Just as a comment, please notice how both of them take the gun and aim it towards her - maybe Max changed his mind at the last moment and Michael made him?

Shapeshifter: sorry for rehashing but... if Nacero wanted to kill Liz in order to make sure Max fell in love with Tess, and we know well that he knew what Max looked like, why would he/Tic Tac shoot her while Max was there? Why take the chance that the boy would act? And if they have time travel capabilities, he would have known Max would act. However... if Tic Tac did it for the purpose of pushing Max into action, then, by all means, I agree. It would fit into the scenario quite nicely, thank you. Tic Tac, with that fatherly smile in the desert, watching while they were sleeping, would do just that to push them together because he knows how important Liz is to them! (As for the posts on how he is evil, I simply don't get it - the jury may still be out but, to me, Tic Tac is only concerned with the podsters (and Liz's) welfare!

Two Skins as shooters: I see Howie Backstreet Boys saying "It has begun. This is the beginning, now we know where they are. Shucks, about time we can start the real work!" Nope. It wasn't them, mainly because they don't have capabilities of anything right now. The poor things cannot even go back home and, I don't know about you, but if I was twiching and scratching, I wouldn't have time to think about anything else!!

StarBox: I stared at the egg behind Young Liz for at least 5 minutes and couldn't come up with what it is. Could it be? Maybe? Is it possible?.. I'm incapable of any conjectures on this one so I'll just sit down and wait for your capable guesses!

As to your thinking the Parkers' are the keepers of the Granolith Key. They would know, wouldn't they? And they don't seem to have a clue as to the treasure they have for a daughter! Could the key be in the pod chamber and Liz will instinctively know where? or inside her orb and only she and Max will be able to open it, while holding it together?

Grace Kel: "Liz changing red skin for Ivonny White". Could you explain please? I don't know what you mean by red skin. Thank you!

So that would leave open the possibility of the shooters being the 2 shapeshifters, except recently on http://www.thewb.com/roswell/primer/ I read under SH that TicTac was Nasedo. Of course, they could change that, but so far we do not see that happening.

***Sigh*** I suspect the shooters are going to have to live on as Beavus and Butthead.

quote:StarBox: I stared at the egg behind Young Liz for at least 5 minutes and couldn't come up with what it is. Could it be? Maybe? Is it possible...The orb? Sure. I also (like Starbox) saw this sequence as disturbingly bordering on kiddieporn, but Max pulls away from kissing her when he gets that flash, telling us he is no pervert. I think the flashes of little Liz were getting jumbled with her fantasies, as well as with her own current visions that were leading them to the orb.

BLUECORNMOON I hope my post up above gives you the answer to your question.

NEMO-thanks for the heads up on the sign I will be sure to look at this more closely.

LTL--I know it sounds crazy that MARIA said BREEPA DELUCA but I purposely put on the MUTE button and she does say BREEPA DELUCA hmmmmm???? Very curious!!!

STARBOX--interesting find but those still are not my backwards c's mine go more like this )( only the c's are more pronounced. LOL!!!

Go to S1.E9 and look at the picture of the symbols in the cave. The backwards c's are on the fold of the page, at the top.

BTW, how do you put up a picture on a message?

Oh and Nemo I too thought the same as you about the three arrows going on way, and the fourth going another, either different agenda or different bloodline even? Maybe!

I really don't think we've met the person or faction which wanted Liz dead. Yet.

Just when I think I've caught up enough to comment you guy zip ahead 2 or 3 pages.

But I had to agree with you Bluecornmoon. Max believing in Liz and loving her no matter what is the ultimate unconditional love. If he can pass this test, he will be ready to step into his leadership role because he will prove that he can follow his heart and that his instincts are correct.

In the Tess/Max/Liz thing, Max was interested in maintaining the romance with Liz. All Liz had to do was go along with Max.

In the Max/Liz/Kyle thing, Liz has made it plain that she does NOT want to maintain the romance with Max. It takes two, and Max can't do that alone. Nor should he.

Max is perfectly right in moving along, given what he knows and the way Liz has acted toward him.

About the signs with one arrow pointing opposite to the other three -- another possible meaning is that the fourth member of some group is to be found in a different place from the other three.

The suit of Diamonds: symbolizes the seasons of warmth and light; represents feminie power; the King of Diamonds is the king of fire; the Queen represents the fuel which feeds the fire; the knave(Jack) is a warrior; diamonds can be associated with the Tarot Pentacles suit signifying earthly matter, money, courage and energy; in fortune-telling they foretell spitefulness and annoyance.

Interesting how that fits with the fact that Max hasn't been much of a leader lately, and the speculations that he may never be a good leader without Liz. "Fuel that feeds the fire" indeed!

No more comments at the moment, just trying to catch up on all the posts.

RW

Ace of Diamonds: represents the single entity

Ace of Spades: symbol signigies a leaf or the cosmic tree, and thus life--represent the cold seasons of fall and winder as well as the power of darkness; Spades can be compared with swords of Tarot, variously symnbolize intellect, action, air, destiny and (particularly association with the Ace) death; spades can bring unahppiness, illness, and financial ruin.

Ace of Clubs: represent fall, winter, night and darkness; symbol of the male principle in opposition to Diamonds; Like the Wands of Tarot, Clubs signify fire, energy and will, as well as wealth, work and luck, any card in the suit of Clubs generally represents happiness.

Add on:

Wheel: powerfull ancient symbol for the cycle of life and has significance in most religions; also denotes the sun with rays radiating out form the center and is the sign of sun gods; in Buddist religions--usually eigth-spoked, signigying spiritual power and enlightenment.

In the Tess/Max/Liz thing, Max was interested in maintaining the romance with Liz. All Liz had to do was go along with Max.

In the Max/Liz/Kyle thing, Liz has made it plain that she does NOT want to maintain the romance with Max. It takes two, and Max can't do that alone. Nor should he.

Max is perfectly right in moving along, given what he knows and the way Liz has acted toward him.

Reggie: you are breaking my heart!! However, I have to admit you are right! I actually think that Max is finally starting to show some initiative (not the kind I like) but maybe this is the start of his road to leadership.

I do agree with you all that Liz is an elemental component in his ability to be a great leader.

Silver Dreamcatcher - we have looked at the meaning so f the names before :-) - Personally I think that the names of the original characters from the books may not have as much significance in terms of Roswell the show as the names of NEW characters. I find the Tess/Ava link very interesting. An alternate meaning of Ava is also SERPENT.
However, I am not ready to speculate on much regarding the dupes yet - because I feel like MITC is going to reveal some new info about their true identities. In the screencap from the promo - for example - you see two pods on a wall connected by iron "C"'s. Obviously - there are at least TWO "extra" podsters in addition to the eight (or seven if you take the leaky pod into account) pods that were in "four square" formations/ pod chambers.

As for the young Liz picture - someone asked what my speculation was. I dont really know because I dont have a way to watch the whole sequence - but I am wondering if maybe young Liz was at GC's house - could the egg behind her be a "pod" of some sort???? For those of us that think GC may have ended up with the leaky pod??? We know the pods were still around even after they "hatched". If you look at the screencap - young Liz looks like she is looking AT Max - like she recognizes him and its almost like she is showing him something...... I dont know - I am just leaning to the idea that this particular flash had a deeper significance. The other flashes Max had of Liz as a child did - when she "recognized him" - and wearing the cupcake dress (which showed her noble character - that she would rather sacrifice her own desire, happiness in order to protect someone she loved - in this case as a child wearing an embarrassing dress to protect her mother's feelings)

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

On the last thread I had posted about the dupes being decoys to through off the bad dudes. So I agree w/what other are saying especially in the case of the Granilith. If the pod squad were the defectives the other aliens would not have intrusted them w/the granilith and Harding/Nasedo/TicTac etc... would not have been watching put for the podsters.

Also if the Nicholas' skins had found the Royal Four, how come the NYpodsters were contacted for the summit? Had Nicholas not told the others about them. I was just thinking this cause the timeline for everything that has been happening these dayz are just dayz apart.
--In Harvest Grier says that the Royal 4 came to them instead of them finding them. But the NYpodsters were already known since they had received this message more then once. I realize this could have been to protect the real podsquad. so was there a underlined reason for Nicholas not telling this counsel or whatever they are called?
Does all this really have to do w/Vilandra?

I just watched MTD today, so here are my comments.

So was Lonnie telling the truth when she said that M/I/M where the defective pod? Of course she probably was lying for many reasons:
1. well, MOST everthing else out of their mouths where lies.
2. Why did M/I/M have the granolith, not the NYers.
3. M/I/M have so much interest in them from other aliens, both protecters and enemies.
4. Lonnie had an obviouse contempt for the Roswellians, thus she would say things just to hurt them.

Heres the problem.... there are almost as many reasons that she could be telling the truth and ( disgusted sigh) half of them are almost the exact same facts.

1. Lonnie DID obviously know about Vilandra and at least told the truth about that if nothing else.
2. The NYers sure do seem to remember a lot more than the Roswellians.
3. If the Roswellians are the defective pod and are there for the purpose of being decoys for the enemy, then they sure are doing a good job! They've been practicelly smothered with shapeshifters, skins and FBI agents. I got the impression that the NYers weren't having to deal with such things. (I mean, good greif, they were walking around with that foursquere symbol tattood on their arms for everyone to see!)
4. The NYers got the invite to the Summit. Not the Roswellians.
5. Lonnies observation was very true. The Roswellians ARE a lot more human than the NYers.
6. The NYers sure do act more like what I would expect Vilondra and Co. would act like, judging from what all we have heard about them so far.

Of course this all revolves aroun whether the NYers where really the other pod, which I believe was true. Otherwise, we wouldn't see the scene in NT about Zane getting killed.

I also think it makes since that Tess and Ava could have been switched. Their personalities sure did not match their respective pods. However, I'm not sure that the writers are going to kill Tess off. They may just have for Ava what they had in store for Courtney, an underdog with a heroic death. I do believe that it is very important that Ava stayed behind. I agree with a lot of others that she will probably tell Liz or Michael or Isabel (my money's on Liz, Ava probably would expect M and I to react the same way L and R would if she told them unpleasant news) about what really happend to Zane. As for why she didn't do anything when Zane was killed, I just thought that it had all happend so fast that she didn't have time to react. I know when something catches me by suprise, I kinda go into shock for a minute.

I'm not even going to comment on the M/L situation because it frustrates me to much!

RW

Any way, I think it would be interesting if it turned out that Max and co. where the defective pod. If all the NYers are killed off ( which I have not doubt will happen, not saying whether I like them one way or another), then that would put Max etc. in the position to have to save people who thought them defective. That kinda parallels with a child trying to win the approval of a stoic or unapproving parent. After all, this show was originally base on the metaphor of teen alienation.

Besides, I've always loved rooting for the underdog. Guess that's part of the reasons Liz is one of my favorite characters!

RW

So, if the silveHP is legit, it's got bloopers. And if its got bloopers, then how accurate would it be for our theories? But just for the record, if it's supposed to be true (if Katims endorses it), then I got the impression the Skins only came here to get the granolith and then use it to go home and rule Twilo/Antar. Meanwhile, Max's people tried to time it so the podsters would emerge as the Skins died. I'm not ready to think Dupes here. Maybe tomorrow.

Posting images:
1. Find the location of the image as follows: Go to the image and right-click on it. On the menu that appears, choose "copy image location." (Or whatever is equivalent, on your browser. You may have to look under "Properties" for the location. Copy it.)
2. Paste this location onto your message. Add [ img ] before it and [ / img ] after it, except omit the spaces that I used in this illustration. Then it should be ready to post.

Other things worth noticing:
1. The gallery of images available via the Images button on the Episodes page.
2. The "Reply with Quote" icon (last icon on the right, in the string of icons above every post). Even if you're not going to quote someone's post, this will show you what they typed in, so you can learn from their example. (Just be careful to quit the editor without hitting the Submit button.)

the parkers could be the ones that holds the key to operate the granolith, and it's in safe keeping. w/ that, the granolith could have been transported to the chamber and kept the original here. do maybe draw attention away from the podsters, the dupes were sent to the other side of the continent. where else could you get all the exposure but ny? they are making themselves known and the podsters are secluded in roswell. the podsters being in roswell, keeps them in close distance to the granolith and to liz, the fifth element. the key to the granolith was probably passed down to generation to generation and i think presently, liz has it.

just rambling.

Well, then keep rambling! The fact that the podsquad have the granolith--not the dupes--is the best argument I've heard for which set is the "correct" one.

This is the first time I've lurked at this thread--I've only been posting for 2 weeks--but it's GREAT! There are so many wonderful questions and theories. I'll definitely come back--hopefully with more to contribute!

Right after Rath and Zan have the argument, Rath and Lonnie exchange a look. Tess catches it and looks from one to the other, nervously.

It was like they had it worked out before-hand. This doesn't answer any questions, just makes more. But I am sure that I saw it.

I noticed it, too--it was obvious enough that I saw it the first time I watched MTD! It looked like Rath & Lonnie had an agreement in place and were just watching for an opportune moment. And Ava definitely understood it. Maybe that's because she's seen them hunt together before, though--I get the feeling that the four of them survived in the big apple by being predators.

I think that Ava will turn to Liz in MITC, telling her what Rath & Lonnie did. She seemed to look at Max kind of longingly--I think he noticed it, that's why when he introduced himself it was kind of directed at her. She's evidently distressed by Zan's murder, and by the possibility of Max's death.

Anyways I hope you all read the sypnosis on Max In The City. I wont tell you about it out of respect but I do urge you to read it. If you wanna know if it is good or bad and dont want to read the sypnosis the pm me and I will either or :frown: when I reply or if it is a mixture of both I will but other than that I suggest you read the sypnosis.

I am glad to be a Mythologist cuase now I can express my feelings and maybe not be gunned down by over doing my theory. I still though strongly think Tess and Liz could be the same person and as Shapeshifter said
" They do repersent both sides of Max's perfect partner" I am glad to be backed up by StephStephSteph and Shapeshifter on my theroy thank you very much.

Now I hope we will come at peace with the truth and not be shaken up anymore.

Yet if Liz told Max about the Kyle situation , and she did change the future and if you guys think Max will love Liz more for this what if Max and Liz slept together? Then I mean wouldnt things take a turn for the worst. I mean by all means I think Max and Liz belong together but they need Tess to survive and....oh I am getting ahead pf myself...I will stop and think about it first then post it .

Bai Bai

Mimi

dreamer, stargazer,candy ,mythologist eating StraBEHRyAPPLEsuace lover

We all are on Max's side. But…. he saw her with his own two eyes. He has to accept it but he can't. He has doubts because he loves her and wants her back. Max has a big problem, doesn't he? On one hand his love doesn't want him and has hurt him badly. On the other, he needs her and loves her. He cannot listen to his heart because it is warring with his brain. It's true that right now, the only road to take is Tess', because hers is not the last wound or the deepest (remember the mind rape last year? And the subterfuge? And the lying?). But that's not what we are studying here, is it? Max is unbalanced. Completely. And until he changes this, he won't be able to look at this in perspective and he will continue making the same mistakes that took him to NY this week. And I still maintain that the only way for this to correct itself is for him to think about it, know that whatever she did, she must have had a reason, because otherwise, the "going back together" will not be real. There'll always be doubts in the other's mind if he only takes her back because he knows the truth. In order for this reunion to be true, real, definite, he has to find out the truth after they are back together again. Rozbrite said he'll only be a true leader when he trusts his instincts and he listens to his heart. Liz is his heart and his balance. Only when he has her back in his life will he be able to choose the right path in whatever life has in store for him.

Tasyfa: I would like to hear more re your theory of the Parkers being the keepers of the Granolith key! I think it'll be a joint "knowledge" of Max and Liz and it'll be somewhere in the pod chamber or in Liz's orb (let me duck as QFanny will jump into the fray now - I said the magic word :lol.

About Tess leaving Roswell. We saw that Tess was not well treated by Max until after he saw Liz and Kyle together. She was ready to leave because she felt unaccepted and unwanted. Now she and Max are at least friends, and she has gained acceptance. The future has already been changed because Tess has stayed longer. If Max had not been hurt by seeing the L/K thing, he may not have made the same decision about going to Copper Summit, and the skins may have gained the upper hand by getting their new skins. Tess has helped to fight the skins both in CS and Roswell, as well as accompany Max to New York for the summit meeting. The future has been changed, but enough? Even if Max and Liz did get back together, Max could handle it in such a way that Tess could still feel like she was wanted and part of the team.

Going back to TEOTW,If Max was showing gray at 31, then the podsters are not aging slower than humans. There is an awful lot to do in such a short lifetime, and still get to rule. It makes me wonder if they are going to have new bodies when they return home. Have pure alien bodies been cloned for them to transfer into? When they hit 35 or 40, do they go spin a cocoon and metamorphosize into an alien that has a "normal" lifespan? I have this sad scene in my head of Alien Max reaching out silently with long silver fingers to an unsure Liz, as an SSer yells "All aboard" from the ramp of a spaceship.

I'd be happy if an alien Liz reached back.

The fact the Liz found her own path to Michael's healing without the stones seems to suggest that Liz is *important* beyond the terms of normal. I think at this time she and Michael were still having some trust issues... Which I think finally got resolved after this healing.

I hope that if Ava tells Liz and Liz tells the others about Zan and Max that they go after him and recement their bonds. Right now he is probably feeling like everyone is betraying him except Tess which ultimatly might be a bad idea since she can go freaky w/her powers.

I was wondering if anyone thought that Nasedo first found the Dupes then realized they were not the right ones. First because they had Ava, but secondly because they were not in the right frame of mind.That could be why he took so long to confront the pod squad (if he was TicTac after all). They kinda were under going many tests before he really let them know who he was. Finally w/the whole orb thing the watcher seemed satisfide(sp).

Which also points out that the Roswellians not only have the Granilith, but the healing stones and the orbs.

Makes me wonder what will happen they next time they reconnect romantically.

Kristine - the actual quote is NO WONDER his bitch left him. Zan did not have a "woman" - they are talking about Max and Liz.

And now - a public service announcement for the unspoiled.
IF you do NOT normally videotape your Roswell episodes - you will WANT TO TAPE MAX IN THE CITY.
Just a little warning to ya - there *might* be some huge implications in terms of Liz mythology *hint* *hint* so go buy a video tape and program your VCR *hint* *hint*

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I am all over the idea that Max had to be with Liz, so that the race could evolve to a higher being...!!

Forgive me, I am going to attempt to comment based on my memory of MTD...

Did Zan say something to the effect of .."they don't want no. 2; they want the Royal Four.." ? Was he refering to Rath as No. 2 or the NY Dupes as no.2?

I can't help feeling that Ava and Tess were switched at birth (or something...)The symbol on her ring -- the backward "C" thing..was it you Reggie, that mentioned it seemed sort of molecular? Like twins being split or something.In the few moments at the beginning of MTD, it just didn't seem that Ava and Zan were "together," in the Mom-o-gram sort of way. If the NY Dupes are part of the plan, would they have received a momovision as well?

And why did it just "it has begun" when our favorite Podsters hit the stones? As it appears that the NY Dupes seem to know so much more about their past lives, did they know better not to contact home? But then what is the significance of the message from mom, in light of what has happened now? Someone knows how to reach the Dupes without their having to "phone home." (sorry!)

I was never sure about how I felt about Tess, but now it seems Tess is really part of some other grand scheme; the signal from other parts of the country, possibly Roswell, wasn't from Nicholas, but from Tess. Is she is giving insight to the Dupes or her race? Was Ava was supposed to be with our Podsters but was the "good twin" and replaced with Tess???

Ugh! I'm sorry...I'm rambling! :frown:

Any thoughts? Am I WAAAYY off base?

I still believe Liz is human!

m-14

Yes, but my point, as you yourself put it: "in order to accept Max again". Max was offering himself to her. In the Kyle/Liz/Max thing, Liz is most emphatically not offering herself to Max. Max can't "accept" what isn't offered.

Did Zan say something to the effect of .."they don't want no. 2; they want the Royal Four.." ? Was he refering to Rath as No. 2 or the NY Dupes as no.2?

I can't help feeling that Ava and Tess were switched at birth (or something...)The symbol on her ring -- the backward "C" thing..was it you Reggie, that mentioned it seemed sort of molecular? (...)

Any thoughts? Am I WAAAYY off base?

No, that wasn't me about the ring. As for being "off base", I heartily recomend Starbox's advice. If you watch the tape, you'll get some answers to your questions; slo-mo and freeze frame are your friends.

Believe me when I tell you that there really will be things you will want to look at, and hear again, in Max in the City. (I've seen it, twice.)

My theory is that the podsters are the more "human" creations, but whether this makes them the "defective" ones is a matter of opinion. Why use human DNA and send them to Earth if there wasn't a benefit to being human.

My question - who has been looking over and filling in the Dupes all these years? They sure know a lot!! Could Tic Tac have been their contact, and that is why he has only made limited contact with the podsters? I agree with whoever said they will be VERY DISAPPOINTED if M&T don't pump Lonnie and Rath for information on the long drive to NY!!

Spent the day at the Getty Museum and stumbled on this little tidbit of information. Selena was the Goddess of the Moon! Ummmmm ....

Well, got to go have dinner with the In-Laws! Hope everyone is enjoying the holiday weekend! Welcome to alllllllll the newbies!! AND A BIG THANK YOU TO QFANNY who started this thread in my absence!! :0

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

Starbox-thanx for the subtle hint that we should tape Max In the City. lol. I was wondering if i should but now i definitely will

I know the whole Liz as Venus thing is probably very old plus I am sorry for possibly repeating things. I came across something in the Sci-fi in Meet the Dupes thread. A post by shapeshifter quoted the scene with Max and Liz in 4square.

"LIZ: Oh, wow, it’s Venus. When it’s in the right place in the sky, it completes the V shape. It started moving into this formation after the last full moon.
MAX: About the time that Tess showed up."

Ergh I don't like what it implies but I needed to hear people's thoughts on this.
Sorry again if it's already been brought up

As I am relatively new to all of this, where are you that you can see next week's episode twice?

I throw out questions as a way of thinking out loud...sorry if it is old news..!

But Liz does have a stone in this ep. Michael takes it back from her after he is healed.

OK, I have something new, discovered during a family trip to a museum. It was a display of Romany Gypsey life, history, etc, In the section for their legendary 'future' reading abilities, there was a ceramic hand, marked with the 'lines' etc, and printed with aspects that rule a particular part of the hand. Naturally, related to the Zodiac, these are predominantly named after Planets. Printed, quite boldly, over the heel of the hand (Is that what you call the fleshy part at the base of the thumb? And is that the part Max pressed to Liz's gunshot wound?) is the word "VENUS". Well, I liked it.

WR.

"LIZ: Oh, wow, it’s Venus. When it’s in the right place in the sky, it completes the V shape. It started moving into this formation after the last full moon.
MAX: About the time that Tess showed up."

Ergh I don't like what it implies but I needed to hear people's thoughts on this.
Sorry again if it's already been brought up[/B]

Willow - I have a little "pet" theory that Liz/Max's physical attraction is tied to the movement of Venus. Someone pointed out that the distance between Sexual Healing and the night Max and Liz would have made love corresponds exactaly with the orbit of Venus.
Tess showed up RIGHT after Sexual Healing. My impression of this is that Max is connecting Venus (wrongly) with Tess and not with he and Liz increasing their intimacy/finding the orb in the desert. Although I do think that Tess showing up just as Max and Liz were approaching intimacy was not an accident.....

As for how Reggie can see the episodes twice - I am assuming he has a satellite dish. Roswell is aired on satellite feed to the WB affiliate stations in the wee hours of Saturday mornings.
For those of you who want to be "spoiled" a few days early - there is a detailed synopsis of the new episodes posted on the spoiler board - just remember ********* DO NOT BRING ANY SPOILER KNOWLEDGE ON TO THIS BOARD!!! - Try not to even HINT about it - Monday is not long away and we can discuss our hearts out then!! :-) :-) **************

**StarBox**
dreamer. mythologist
"Liz..I just want you to know...I have meditated about this situation...and I am at peace."

Rachel

Starbox- I like the way you think. That makes me feel much better. I too think Liz plays an important part. Wait-of course I do that's why I go to this thread! So when can I expect Sexual Healing2? Okay getting off track... I don't have any theory or insight to offer now but hopefully Monday will give me something to ponder on.

As I am relatively new to all of this, where are you that you can see next week's episode twice?
My sibling, Palomino, has a friend with a "big" satelite dish. The friend can pick up the (Fox!) network feed at 3:30 AM Sat. morn., and tape it for us to watch Sat. afternoon, when I get home from work. No commercials, and no "scenes from next week".
We watched it twice this afternoon, and again this evening. No spoilers, but we do suggest taping it.

This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?

I think the next alignment of venus is on June 12th or something - so - if this theory is correct the writers *might* fiddle with time constraints slightly and let it be the season finale (I also think that when Liz and max "connsumate" that she will go through some type of physical change (that we saw started in SH). BUT - if the show is renewed - they may just ship one of the two away for the summer - thus keeping them apart until "next time".
I dont know - how willing are TPTB to show us someone losing the "V" card?? Personally - I dont think its a problem for them - the WB doesnt shy away from sexualtiy on its other teen shows - and JK certainly did not shy away from it on MSCL or Relativity.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

"Liz..I just want you to know..I have mediatited on this situation..and I am at peace."

Starbox I find it uncanny about the VENUS revolutions 245 day cycle and our SEXUAL OUTBREAKS LOL!!!!

Shapeshifter--I just wanted to let you know I went back and looked at the scene from SKIN and BONES with the boy on the bike when we first saw Max come up to Liz for the first time since DESTINY and you asked was that NIKOLAS???? Well I think the implication is there, or at least that this might be the same boy who was at the end of WIPEOUT---Again IMPLIED but not sure. One thing I did notice in GRACEKEL MODE is that LIZ watches this biker go behind MAX so it seems we are suppose to notice this but also what looks like a cigarette????? is tossed right in front of Max---blooper? does it mean something? I don't know LOL. I know you have been waiting for someone to check this.

QFANNY---as for your theory about Max and Michael being the shooters well if you were talking about the DUPE VERSIONS----MAYBE I COULD SEE IT THEN. "NO GET OUT OF HERE" does I must admit sound very much like a MICHAEL line. LOL!!!!

The real problem with either of the Max's or Michael's being the shooters is that podsters don't shapeshift. Lately I'm going for it being either shapeshifters (who are either among us or who granolith in for the occasion), or Skins--maybe Michael Worshippers (if that wasn't a line of c**p) or some other faction. Either way, I like the idea of it being modeled on the Woodsman who was supposed to cut out Snow White's heart but couldn't bring himself to do it, or, to be more literary about it (with my daughter's help), Hecuba abandoning Paris of Troy instead of killing him because his mother had a vision of everything going up in flames when she was pregnant with him (too much Tobasco sauce before bed in ancient times? ). Of course all of this would fit better on BehrAll's new thread at Representations &Interpretations 6: A New Era.

Are you basing it on what Tess told Max in M2TM because he doesn't have a human body like we do he needs to hide what he really looks like--is this the proof? If this is the proof then the jury is still out for me because Tess has not been proven trustworthy yet to me or are you basing it on that Lonnie and Rath appeared to only change parts of themselves to look like Isabel and Michael? I guess this could be considered proof or it could be just simply not fully revealing YET what they are capable of I think I am still just not sure.

This is your brain:
This is your brain on spoilers:
Any questions?
Telling me to tape Roswell is akin to telling me don't forget, the Earth is round, the sun rises in the east and my head is attached to the rest of my body. I don't think I could forget to tape Roswell anymore than I can forget my name. Glad to hear it's a good episode.

I hope that means heavy Liz stuff.

Dupe Max and Michael shapeshifted, then time traveled (via the granolith) to shoot Liz (We got to get rid of her --meaning Liz this time). Why, becauce Liz is the protector of the granolith, stops Max from following Destiny, who knows????

To be true, Dupe Max and Dupe Michael would have had to know these items...
1) Locations of granolith
2) Max was in love with Liz
3) Liz is key to the alien's survival
4) Dupe Max & Dupe Michael had to do this sometime before the events of TEOTW.

Again, the biggest problem with the whole idea is the timing, but because our beloved writers are not worried with such a small matter of chronological consistancy, why should I?????

What do you think BCM?

katherinevu

katherinevu

Actually, the summary is written by Zero: I had the pleasure of posting it when the time came! Nice to see another new member join the Roswell Bureau of Investigation, or the RBIs!

maxcedo

Here is the link:

http://bbs.fanforum.com/Forum12/HTML/001220.html

Nemo, I went there to look for the Images you mentioned. It must have been the wrong place. Which site are they on?

The following is a summary (sorry it is so long!) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled, however, not all theories are covered in-depth. Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

I've been meaning to "get into" this interesting thread for a while. I see I have a lot of catching up to do, and I'll probably lurk most of the time. I've just printed Maxcedo's 8 page intro! Well, that's okay. It means you all are serious. Ciao!

Back for another brief check-in!! Shapeshifter - I think the use of the human DNA has more to do than survival. I think there will be something involving the "humanity" the human form brings, etc. I can't put my finger on it, yet, but the line Nick uses about Max deciding the fate of many with the flip of a coin bugs me - like, maybe Max's alien being along with Vilandra/Iz, etc. needed to be given that second chance to become better beings than they were. This is where Liz comes into play - her presence in his life, along with his up-bringing with his parents, have caused him to become a better being, though he still has a lot to learn, and Liz seems to be instrumental and essential to this learning process regardless of her origins. And this also plays into what Mikey G says about connecting with humans.

Also, can you explain about the primer's comments on Tic Tac and Nasedo?? I've obviously not had time to get to read these, and probably won't for a while. Need it state that Tic Tac/Nasedo/Harding were all one-and-the-same?? That's seems to not fit with the way Harding and Tic Tac were presented last year - plus, it would be more interesting if there were more shapeshifters out there than just Harding. Let me know what they said if you have time - THANKS!

Reporting in (briefly) from Sunny So. Cal. (and praying my VCR taped while I was away!

Zero
I Shall Believe

Episodes has transcripts, reviews, links to slideshows of last year's episodes and screencaps of this year's. (Today the slideshows are working again, last week some of them were not.)

Images has some different pictures, and (further down) all the same ones as the slideshows, but indexed differently, via thumbnail-sized samples that you click on to get the bigger picture. (This doesn't always work either, but once you catch on to the code for locations, you can change from thumbnails to regular slides by editing the address in the location bar of your browser. For example, one intriguing image is at:

(thumbnail size) http://www.crashdown.com/slideshows/destiny/thumbs/tn121-004.jpg

http://www.crashdown.com/slideshows/destiny/ss121-004.jpg
(regular size)

You see what a small change it takes to get from one to the other, once you know the code.)

Now that the image is on hand, what's intriguing here is the array of white poles just left of the crossroads. (The car that turned left is about to pass behind it.) There are four poles in square formation, plus a slightly taller one in the center. Another 4 + 1 reference, like so many others pointed out on these threads.

Reporting in (briefly) from Sunny So. Cal. (and praying my VCR taped while I was away!...
Zero, from http://www.thewb.com/roswell/primer/s1e15/index.shtml :
"Liz and Max fall asleep in the desert only to be awakened by a strange man who unbeknownst to them is Nasedo."

But then silverhandprint.com is also posted by the WB, and the 'journal' there claims CW didn't know who Liz was until after she randomly hired her. But we know that Pierce knew Liz very well. Of course, I guess the original Pierce might not have shared everything with the Congresswoman either.

DeeDee

Ok, so it's 2:00 PM EST on Monday and I'm JUST getting a chance to glance at what I've missed since last Wed. Hmm.. needless to say, I haven't read it yet.

Just wanted to say hi before tonight's Journey To NY. Here's hoping for some GREAT Liz revelations!!!

(I'll be back after I read through! )

If Liz told Max, he absolutely would not believe her. Look, she's stuck a knife in his back, and twisted it. Then she says she wants to be friends. Maybe I have an odd perspective on this, as one of the few guys on the board, but I gotta tell ya, this is not How to Win Friends and Influence People. Quite the opposite! When Liz says she doesn't want Max to hate her... the look on his face says she isn't getting that wish.

And before anyone flames me, let me point out that I think Liz is adorable, and I wish I could find a gal so sweet. {Well, maybe a little older... }

While the smart money is on Maria finally worming the truth out of Liz, I'll put my money on Kyle. I'm not sure how; he may confess to Michael, since they both know how it's hurt their friends. Maria may go after Kyle, since Liz won't talk. Max may do something hostile, and provoke Kyle to blurt it out. Kyle is being very philosophical at this point in his life, and telling the truth is something he will find unavoidable.

Or maybe Liz will quietly go nuts. If so, perhaps there will be a new psychiatrist in town. One who likes candy.

I totally disagree! I know Max is hurt now and the idea that he'd forgive Liz right now is pretty far fetched, but I truely believe he would trust her if she told him what happened. Why would she lie about that? They have ALWAYS had faith in each other and although right now Max is doubting that (I can't say I blaim him.. she hasn't given him much choice) I'm positive if she told him what REALLY happened.. he'd understand!

I have to say though.. I'm with the theory that he'll find out through a flash. Either by touching Liz or by touching the strip-pictures of him and Liz that FM touched! I don't think anyone could really convince Max of what happened (other than Liz) and unfortunately, I just don't think she'll tell!

Continuing on my reading.. be back soon!

I haven't been able to keep up with the msg boards over the holiday (had to keep my Roswell obsession just a bit under wraps!) I agree with you Zero that there was some strength (other than earth survival) that made the human factor desirable for the podsters this "2nd time around". I'm not sure what that is yet--my imagination falls way behind any of you on the boards. But I don't think that the presence of Liz in his life seems to have essentially changed Max from the way he was before the healing. The way he was portrayed in the pilot showed a sensitive guy who was comfortable (or resigned) to the shadows who nevertheless showed great courage to reveal himself at possibly great cost to himself by healing Liz because it was Liz. I have never really thought it through if he would have responded similarly if it had been someone other than Liz, but he seems to have stayed true to this same characterization through season 2. (Except this past week when he left Liz to go to NY, which has always seemed really unMax like even though I know he is hurting.) I don't know who said it before but I agree with them and took the flip of the coin phrase to mean he was that powerful, not that he was that careless of a ruler.

Hmm. Guess I'll wait and see.

Chica

Could it be that now that we know there are 2 sets of the Royal Four (the Pod Squad and the Dupes).. could it be that the Dupes are the ones that should fulfill the Destiny? In other words, since Zan was killed can we assume that HE should have married/wed/loved/betrothed Ava/T and that now that he's gone NOONE will take that Destiny.. hence leaving Liz and Max free to love each other?

Or.. do I have to now accept that Max will take over Zan's position in the Royal Four and go on to lead and marry/wed/love/betroth Ava/T ?? Cuz.. I don't wanna!

Well, recall there was some talk about using any spare Max/Zan on a stud farm... Really, as a King, Max probably could have several wives. Liz and Tess and Ava.

Anyway, I know tonight's ep will have everyone talking(my dumb friend sent me a spoiler and I couldn't help but read it). I'm looking forward to it, and I know everyone that frequents this board will love it(no spoilers, I know, I'm just teasing a little to perk interest).

~Aphrodite~

Do we look like we need help peeking.. err.. perking our interests!?

Eeeewwwwwwwww!

Zero- I agree. It seems to me that the NYers, the less human pod, acted more in accordance with what we've heard about the original royal four. i.e. Lonnie betraying her brother, Ava seemed to act more like a "young bride" than Tess, etc.
It would make since that it is the Roswellians human side that will make them true leaders and heros.

BTW, if "Lonnie" is short for Vilandra, then are the rest of the NYers names shortened versions of the original Royal Four's names?

RW

I was reading the transcript for Wipeout when I came across a line that made me go, hummmmmmm. Here it is.

TESS: I've never come up against power like that before. It feels like...someone took a sledgehammer to my head.

So what Tess is saying is that she has fought against something or someone with powers before. I never caught this during the show because this was when Max was rubbing her back, and I was pretty ticked off. Oh boy, did I ever want to take a sledgehammer to her head. Anyway, this also means that Tess knows about other Aliens on earth, or does this mean she fought them on another planet? How ever it adds up it's juat one more reason not to trust the snake.

Oh, and I have a question, why did Iz reach for Nicholas's Fanny pack in the bus? At first I thought it was a camera case, but the Transcript on Crashdown said it was a Fanny pack. Did I miss the reason she wanted it so badly, or is this one more thing the writters forgot to let us viewers in on?

Now my life is in your hands.~Max~
Evid

I agree with the others.

EEEEEWWWWWWWWW

I suppose it's possible, but highly unlikely. As in if-the-writers-did-that-they-would-have-to-move-to-another-country-because-the-of-the-fans unlikely.
Besides, no matter how much Max is talked into following his destiny, I don't think he'd ever go for that!

RW

Also,
If the 5th element theory is true, then Liz and no one around her knows this (duh) A friend of mine was telling me about Buffy's sister on Buffy the Vampire Slayer. She and everyone else thinks that she's Buffy's sister, but she isn't (everyone has memories of her, the whole nine yards). There is a special power hidden within her, and if this power gets in the wrong hands it could be dangerous. Therefore no one knows about it, but the beings that planted it there. What if Liz is in a similiar situation. That would explain why no ones after her, and why they're only after the Royal Four. Maybe when Max healed her that day, he awakened that power.

Then again,
Maybe Liz really isn't apart of the podsters destiny or part alien. Maybe this is just a case of deep undying love between a human and an alien, now that would truly be beautiful. That the connection Liz and Max share, caused her to have those visions, to feel what she thought was herself changing, was really Max changing, for her to be so connected that she begans to share his power of healing etc., Now that would be incredible!

But I'm sure that's not the case, and to tell you the truth, I don't want it to be. I know that Liz is an important part to the podsters. Time will only tell what it is.

LIZ HAS POWERS!!! Maybe even STRONGER powers than Isabel.

LOTS of BIG hints that she has "CHOOSEN ONE" status.
And Ava and Zan were NOT together because he was "waiting for someone" - (The CHOOSEN ONE??)
Are Liz's powers simply the result of being healed - or is it that her healing was the sign of the prophesied "CHOOSEN ONE"?????? We dont know - but I definately think Ava's actions suggest that it is more than just the result of a healing.

And the big "C" word - "CHANGE" - Liz has CHANGED (just like FMax said she would).

Notice that the DRAGON on Liz's window has been prominent in every single episode this season?

Also - looked to me like Liz and Ava were sharing a strong connection - rather than switched pods for Ava and Tess - could it be that Liz and Ava are connected somehow????

One quick thought - my husband and I both agree that the opening scene with Tess and Max on the empire state building was an obvious parallel to the temptation of Christ.
You just never see someone stand on top of a mountain/building/etc and say "This is where you belong - with all this at your FEET" without it being an allusion to Satan.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

Why didn't they try to get more information out of Ava? She seemed like she knew a lot of stuff about their powers.

I'm so happy about Max and Liz- the last scene, but why didn't she tell him about Kyle.

Why didn't they try to get more information out of Ava? She seemed like she knew a lot of stuff about their powers.

I'm so happy about Max and Liz- the last scene, but why didn't she tell him about Kyle.

The biggest development we discovered tonight - an 'altered' Liz. The Liz Mythologists here must be going into a frenzy right now...you've been discussing this theory since Roswell's inception. I agree that Liz remains human on a basic genetic level, and Max's healing most likely makes her an 'advanced' human, rather than part alien. I think the writers will keep Liz as the sole 'superhuman', if you will, despite Kyle's healing. There'll probably be some minute details about timing, eye-contact, etc., etc., that will prevent Kyle from being similarly gifted. Remember, a key clue in this is that in EOTW, Kyle reveals he didn't 'flash' when Max healed him. We learned in Destiny that the Pod Squad's abilities are ones that all humans will possess one day; just a couple thousand years into the future. If Max's healing Liz advanced her mind's potential to that point, then technically, she might be able to share all the Pod Squad's powers.

There was a theme of change tonight. Liz changed when Max saved her life and Brody at the peace summit said that things needed to change...or that he'd hoped things had changed.

Something did change tonight. When Rath killed Zan it was right after an argument between them and Zan said "I'm the man". Then Rath dropped the ball, Zan tried to get it and was pushed in the street with Ava unable to do anything. Tonight, the same scenario, Max arguing with Rath, ends up saying "I'm the man" and then they try to kill Max while Tess is unable to help.

One difference: Liz saved Max. She has already brought about change. Brody said change is needed.

I really think the writers had to be tying that scenario in, because why would the dialogue "I'm the man" and the replicated scene be in both episodes.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

LIZ HAS POWERS!!! Maybe even STRONGER powers than Isabel.

Also - looked to me like Liz and Ava were sharing a strong connection - rather than switched pods for Ava and Tess - could it be that Liz and Ava are connected somehow????

One quick thought - my husband and I both agree that the opening scene with Tess and Max on the empire state building was an obvious parallel to the temptation of Christ.
You just never see someone stand on top of a mountain/building/etc and say "This is where you belong - with all this at your FEET" without it being an allusion to Satan.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

We don't know that Liz has any Powers. Likely, Isabel did the work, and Liz just gave it direction somehow. Focus!

Ava has probably never been treated with such open affection before. Lok at how Lonnie treated her, in the car on the way out. Of course she had a "strong connection"!

Max as Christ: maybe, but he doesn't need to prove his royalty; the Emissary does that. It's a touristy thing to do, and is a neat place for Max to say the Titanic line; as well as for Tess to be supportive.

Does anyone else see the beginning symptoms of Cartwright's Disease in Tess? I think she gets killed soon; and they have to find Ava to make the Royal Foursome.

As an RBI/Liz Mythologist, this ep has got me giddy. Chalkful of Liz's Importance goodness. I need to rewatch it before I do any serious speculating, but I just wanted to say how much I LOVE Ava for throwing out this little "you [Liz] are changed now"... WOOHOO!! Cancel our memberships at the looney bins, the RBIs had something all along Kudos to everyone who went along with the "changed Liz" theory. Granted, Liz's *specialness* might even strive beyond just this "changing" and/or I probably shouldn't be taking Ava's word as that of *heaven sent* just yet... but I'm giddy regardless.

btw, I'm not entirely certain if Liz's possible "powers" are more potent than Isabel's, but I do feel Liz's connection to Max is much stronger than Isabel's after watching MITC ("Journey to New York"? Whatever this ep is called). If this is so... Liz's connection to Max is more powerful than that of even his sister's [who is someone he always felt a special connection to in this life and arguably in the past one as well?] ... Liz is more vital (to the King) than Isabel? (please don't kill me for saying that Iz fans)

quote:LOTS of BIG hints that she has "CHOSEN ONE" status. Ava and Zan were NOT together because he was "waiting for someone" - (The CHOSEN ONE??) Are Liz's powers simply the result of being healed - or is it that her healing was the sign of the prophesied "CHOSEN ONE"??????

I honestly feel Liz is "the chosen one"... after MITC this belief is definitely strengthened in me. Zan (the clone of the King) was seemingly "waiting for someone else" according to Ava. The Dupes who -as far as we've seen- are all over this "Destiny" jargon (physically that is, ahem). Yet Zan didn't seem to love (his) "young bride", yet Ava loved him? Could this be because the Tess/Ava switched theories still stand ... or since Max has an undying (hopefully unconditional love! THINK Max... WHY would Liz know anything about the Granilith?!) love for Liz, SHE is the one that the King would have waited for? But Max will never have to wait... because he already has his *someone*; "the chosen one", the one he has a stronger connection to "his Highness" than even that of his sister? ::sigh:: Sorry, the rampant Dreamer is once again taking me over. Can't help it after tonight.

One more Dreameresque tidbit and I'll drop it... was anyone catching some serious symbolism at the end scenes of this ep? First it was Max professing his confidence and love for his sister, no matter who she is... second scene, Liz *seeing Ava off*, quite cordially and warmly (I couldn't help thinking "out with the old, in with the new"... "the young bride" [aka Ava/Tess] was the past, LIZ is the present and future... the difference and key to success for the King in this lifetime?)... final scene, Max and Liz together ... ALL of these scenes going on with "Everything" by Lifehouse in the background.

Here's a sample of the lyrics from the song:
"You calm the storms and you give me rest. You hold me in your hands; you won't let me fold. You still my heart when you take my breath away. Would you take me in take me deeper now and how can I stand here with you and not be moved by it? Would you tell me how could it be any better than this?"

Isabel and Liz are the most important to Max; his sister and his love. They're his "everything" (yet Liz a little more important than even his sister?). As a Dreamer, for once, I did actually feel somewhat uplifted after MITC. Much moreso than any other ep post-EOTW. And now I'll stop with the Dreamer rant!

quote:Also - looked to me like Liz and Ava were sharing a strong connection - rather than switched pods for Ava and Tess - could it be that Liz and Ava are connected somehow????

I also got that impression. It was also comforting to see some *pleasant* scenes between EdR and Shiri, their scenes together are usually wrought with tension. Liz comforting Ava was very nice to see... that's our Liz, always their for the hybrids around her, even if they look like people she doesn't necessarily trust or like all that much. I *definitely* am an Ava fan (even though I had NO idea where the girl was supposed to be from... that small borrough in NY called Aussie Harlem I suppose... no offense to EdR at all, none of the Dupes accents were stellar).

quote:One quick thought - my husband and I both agree that the opening scene with Tess and Max on the empire state building was an obvious parallel to the temptation of Christ. You just never see someone stand on top of a mountain/building/etc and say "This is where you belong - with all this at your FEET" without it being an allusion to Satan.

Is it shapeshifter's theory that if more than one person believes something than it has a high probability of being plausible? Well, count me into that "Christ/Satan" comparison Starbox because I saw it too. And I thought it was just my Christian private school upbringing that warped my mind!

Once again... are the RBIs/Liz Mythologists *correct* with their Tess / *snake* comparing? Tess is "the snake" (aka Satan?) trying to stray Max from the righteous path (Liz = Eve?)? According to Nikolas, Max (Zan?) made "bad choices" in the past life... perhaps Tess (Ava) was one of them? No offense to Tess/Ava or anything, she could have rightly wanted or thought she was doing the right thing by marrying / falling in love with "the King"... but marrying her (or *almost* marrying her, Larek said he attended "the wedding", but I feel that still doesn't mean Zan/Ava didn't die that day) could have been just another "bad choice" by Zan?

Melodious

LIZ HAS POWERS!!! Maybe even STRONGER powers than Isabel.

Also - looked to me like Liz and Ava were sharing a strong connection - rather than switched pods for Ava and Tess - could it be that Liz and Ava are connected somehow????

One quick thought - my husband and I both agree that the opening scene with Tess and Max on the empire state building was an obvious parallel to the temptation of Christ.
You just never see someone stand on top of a mountain/building/etc and say "This is where you belong - with all this at your FEET" without it being an allusion to Satan.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

We don't know that Liz has any Powers. Likely, Isabel did the work, and Liz just gave it direction somehow. Focus!

Ava has probably never been treated with such open affection before. Lok at how Lonnie treated her, in the car on the way out. Of course she had a "strong connection"!

Max as Christ: maybe, but he doesn't need to prove his royalty; the Emissary does that. It's a touristy thing to do, and is a neat place for Max to say the Titanic line; as well as for Tess to be supportive.

Does anyone else see the beginning symptoms of Cartwright's Disease in Tess? I think she gets killed soon; and they have to find Ava to make the Royal Foursome.[/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry Reggie, but I don't agree. Did you notice that Isabel opened her eyes and looked at Liz right before a connection was made? Liz had her eyes closed. Looked to me Liz did all the work. Isabel has had her eyes closed any other time she "dreamwalks."

MITC will pull me through the next 3 weeks of rerun hell.

goodnight my fellow rbi's!

Goodness, I think you may have something there. Max knows that Liz is keeping something from him - they didn't show the discussion between them, so we don't know how much he does know. OTOH, he does know she loves him, and will be friends again; and that would make any guy smile.

"Everything" by Lifehouse

Finally here once speak to me
I want to feel you, I need to hear you
You are the light that's leading me to the place
Where I find peace again
You are the strength that keeps me walking
You are the hope that keeps me trusting
You are the light to my soul
You are my purpose
You're everything and how can I stand here with you
And not be moved by it
Would you tell me how could it be any better than this

You calm the storms and you give me rest
You hold me in your hands
You won't let me fold
You still my heart when you take my breath away
Would you take me in take me deeper now
And how can I stand here with you and not be moved by it
Would you tell me how could it be any better than this

And how can I stand here with you and not be moved by it
Would you tell me how could it be any better than this

Cause you're all I want, you're all I need
You're everything.. everything
You're all I want
You're all I need
You're everything.. everything
You're all I want
You're all I need
You're everything.. everything
You're all I want
You're all I need
Everything.. everything
And how can I stand here with you and not be moved by it
Would you tell me how could it be any better than this
And how can I stand here with you and not be moved by it
Would you tell me how could it be any better any better than this
And how can I stand here with you and not be moved by it
Would you tell me how could it be any better than this
Would you tell me how could it be any better than this

Melodious

********************************************

I strongly disagree with this theory.
Ava clearly states that LIZ can reach Max.
Isabel tries and we see her fail.
WHEN Liz contacts Max you see a shot of Isabel with her EYES OPEN just WATCHING Liz - doesnt look to me like she is doing any work at all - let alone ALL the work. In fact - I just rewatched to make sure and you see both Is and Liz with their eyes closed - the you see Isabel open her eyes - like she is giving up because she is not reaching max - once Isabel opens her eyes and Liz is left ALONE - at THAT moment Liz breaks through to NYC. I think she is holding Liz's hand as reassurance - if anyone is "guiding" - it would be Isabel - "guiding" Liz in how to use HER power to reach Max. Liz reaches him totally on her own.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

More later, right now I just want to watch MitC again and ponder upon it!

You're not the only one who was giddy. I couldn't sit still during the whole ep. If pacing wouldn't have hampered my ablility to watch the screen, there would have been worn paths in the carpet.

I do agree with you Melodious on the "chosen one". They were dropping an awful lot of obvious and blatant hints for this not to be leading somewhere.

GO Max GO! Go Liz Go! ::redhawk is a little too happy for this late in the evening:: You know, it's about time the WB makes us happy again. Yippee!

Some things occur to me:

...IMHO, Liz didn't really "dreamwalk" Max, per se. She made him see something (her) that wasn't really there. Hmmm...where have I seen that before??? Now, remember that the royal four form a complete unit because of their individual powers, not because of who they are personality wise. Do you guys see where I'm going with this? Assuming Liz now has powers, assuming that those powers are identical to or similar to Tess's, would the royal four still need Tess?

...Or maybe Liz doesn't actually have any powers of her own. Perhaps she is simply a conduit, or even an amplifier for the aliens. What if Liz had touched Max during the funeral scene in Wipe Out? Would the green jello shield have grown noticably stronger? Was Liz's healing different then Kyle's because she actually intensifies Max's powers, thus enhancing the connection?

***WARNING***This next part is total speculation on my part, and it's kind of out there.

...I wonder if the Granolith doesn't do something similar (amplify powers). More than ever I am convinced that Liz is somehow connected to it. What will happen when she is actually in the same room with it? Could Liz be a human version of the Granolith???

That was so much more than I meant to post. What do you guys think? Am I on to something or have I finally lost it?

Uhmmm, Zero? Was the alien in the body of the very nice looking, African-American man named Zero? I couldn't help smiling when I heard that. Or, did I misunderstand it?

Did anyone else notice how smoothly Michael used his power to burst all of those dishes? I guess practice pays off!

StarBox, I really loved your suggestion of the parallel of Max on the Empire with the temptation of Christ. And, you are SO right: "You just never see someone stand on top of a mountain/building/etc.and say 'This is where you belong - with all this at your FEET'without it being an allusion to Satan." (AND, I really, really, really hope you are right about Max knowing that Liz didn't sleep with Kyle. He's got to know that something is going on!)

Michworl, wonderful post on the changes shown in MITC! Loved your thinking about how Liz DID bring about change in that situation: Ava/Tess incapable of stopping Rath/Lonnie from killing Zan/Max, but Liz stepping in to bring about the change and save Max's life.

Melodious1, I think you've got a good point in suggesting that Liz has (or will have) a much stronger connection to Max from now on. Reggie, I have to agree with Amyb117 and StarBox that Liz contacted Max mostly on her own. Iz did seem to remove herself from linking with Liz when she opened her eyes; I also thought it was solely Liz from that point on. So, maybe Liz just needed a little push to get going and Iz was there to give it? Or, what I like even more, is that Iz taking Liz's hand was simply a gesture of comfort and support, one friend to another (or one person who loved Max to another). I know, I know... that totally goes against the whole linking idea. But...don't hospital emergency teams often have someone come in and hold a patient's hand just to help calm them? (Or is that something they only do in little, rural podunk towns like mine?)

Ree99

quote:Originally posted by czech please:
...IMHO, Liz didn't really "dreamwalk" Max, per se. She made him see something (her) that wasn't really there. Hmmm...where have I seen that before??? Now, remember that the royal four form a complete unit because of their individual powers, not because of who they are personality wise. Do you guys see where I'm going with this? Assuming Liz now has powers, assuming that those powers are identical to or similar to Tess's, would the royal four still need Tess?
For me, the jury is still out on the dreamwalking vs. vision thing. I think I'll have to watch it again. (oh darn.) I do think that when Ava was about to tell Liz that she was changed, she hesitates as if Max healing Liz has altered the paths i.e. the destiny of all of them. I feel like that was a loaded moment, like Ava was realizing that all the plans and directions sent from Twilo have been turned on upside down. And/Or Ava is realizing that Liz, this "smallest of small town girl", is the "chosen one".

Okay, now I'm beginning to ramble, time for bed. Goodnight.

Liz saved the life of the leader of another world. She has powers now that she has been healed by Max.

She may even be part alien now. Maybe there is even some kind of alien law that says aliens can marry humans that they have saved.

Well...maybe that's just the dreamer in me.

After I read this entire thread (probably tomorrow, it's a little too late at night right now) I'll post again, because what was revealed tonight was really awesome.

Ree99

Right when you said that Ree I suddenly remembered Liz grabbing hold of Isabel's hand in DESTINY... when they were running through the UFO Convention Center. I also remembered all those theories on "hand holding". Holding hands isn't only a symbol of brotherhood but an exchange of powers? Could Iz and Liz have connected to some extent during their contacting of Max? Could it be considered *connecting*? If so... Liz has "connected" with at least four hybrids and one actual SSer (yes, I'm editing )... Max, (possibly) Rath when he kissed her (cloned Michael), (possibly) Michael via healing in BALANCE (and it was always strange her "participation" in this particular healing, as if she was the deciding factor almost in it's success), Nasedo aka Maxedo and now (possibly) Isabel. The only human of all of them that has (possibly) connected to almost all the hybrids and ONE SSer (full blooded alien). Will something even more drastic (or finalizing?) happen to Liz if she connects to Tess or Ava? Could Max, Michael, Rath, Isabel and Nasedo all of been contributing in "changing" Liz??

Palomino has a really fantastic break down of the ep and theories on the Sci Fi of MITC thread, I suggest checking his post out. I latched onto one of his thoughts in particular. Since it seems these "home planet" aliens can come to Earth by literally possessing human hosts... then could it have been possible Zan himself (before he became king?) came to Earth before? Zan studied Earth prior and --based on whatever deduction-- decided before his death that Earth [Zan's want of change possibly stemmed from study of more democratic {however primative / simplistic} ideas of government on Earth / United States?] would be the home of the Granilith and also became *his future home*? Could this have been based on a decision he made himself or his mother made... one of those "It's what my son would have done/wanted [based on his love / admiration / knowledge of Earth?]" things. Zan wanted to lead like some of the better/best leaders of Earth, but such seeming massive change was impossible on Twilo at the rate he was going... and/or Khivar & Co. were COMPLETELY AGAINST these changes which might have eventually succeeded had Zan lived? I don't know, I'm in the middle of a big rant at this point.

Could this "Zan the possessor" idea tie into other past theories from this thread on Liz's family/legacy? Zan met someone on Earth, one of Liz's ancestors, and fell in love with this Liz ancestor... in turn, this Liz ancestor fell for him (a much younger Grandma Claudia?). Zan, however, obviously had responsabilities which pulled him away from his impossible *human love on Earth* [Zan's father died -- possibly murdered/assassinated? -- hence Zan is suddenly and prematurely King] and had to go back to Twilo, eventually marry Ava (for political reasons).

IN THIS TIMELINE, Max (Zan) -- possibly carrying the same human DNA (but isn't physically identical) of that human he possessed when he first went to Earth -- has subconsciously *changed* "his love" (the love he *saw/sees* in Liz; he recognizes the "essence" of that human he loved in her?). However, to CHANGE DESTINY, the Zan in Max realized that to *be with* his love in THIS LIFETIME, "his love" MUST CHANGE? So the Zan in Max changed (or has started the change which is manifesting in) Liz (and only Liz), now Zan can be with the homosapien (homosuperior?) he loves (at least her essence anyway) w/out endangering her or the fate of the home planet and/or Earth? Liz is no longer that "smallest of small town girls" and can now (or eventually) be the Queen of a King from a far off galaxy (embroiled in war)? Ugh.... I think I need to go write a fanfic or something and keep my insane theories off this thread!

Melodious

Could this be foreshadowing? Is she a part of the plot to kill Max.

Right after the scene where Max and Tess are talking and she says you must have been a great husband, it flashes to the streets of New York with a siren going off. Maybe this is a sign or warning that Tess is not what she seems to be.

I have to agree with previous posts that we never really see Tess being tortured by Congresswoman Whitman, Rath, or Lonnie.

FUTURE MAX telling of destiny>> He said something about they were only stopping them from eloping to early. Okay has anyone ever thought that if LIz had never done what she did Max would have never gone to New York? I mean he would been in lover land with Liz and needed no escape. So there would have been no reason for Liz to save his life, Ava would never have told them about LIz's change. Thus, if the future the would never known of Liz's powers. Thus, she won't have been able to help them in their fight. But now if her powers are as strong as people think she can fight as well. I just thought of that. Thus, Liz doing what she did could have changed their futures are the best in all dreamers eyes.

Okay the off the wall stuff first. Maria and her reaction when she finds out Liz has special powers. Whoa, I hope they show that scene because she is definatly going to flip.

Liz's powers>>>First of all how did Ava know that she was changed. I am sure that they had never saved a human, unless that is something about Zan we don't know. I mean did you see Ava's face when Liz mentioned that it was like she experienced deja vu. PLus, she held her tongue to the last possible minuate. Plus, I don;t think their planet in their first life was inhabited with many humans to learn these lessons from. It must be some kind of legend. I don't know. I just think it proves that Liz is a lot more important then first thought.

Max/Liz-----Tess
OKay, hate to group these names together but for the purpose of this it is a must. Have you all noticed again and again the reference to how awful their old way of life was> HOw everyone died? Well why would they want that old way of destiny. I think it is fortelling that the old couples are not suppose to be together.

In ASK NOT Tess tells Max that she remembers him loving her... YET

~Zan didn't seem to love Ava and was seemingly "waiting for someone else".

~Max doesn't love Tess, Max loves -and has always loved- Liz.

Why does Tess seemingly remember Max (Zan) loving her once when NEITHER current version of the King seem(ed) to love their "young brides" (one of which was seemingly "waiting" for someone else to come, interesting choice of words by Ava). Makes one seriously wonder whether Zan loved his "young bride" at all (I mean, beyond our biased Dreamerness that is wanting this to be true) and what Tess seemingly "remembers" might either be false (her own lie) or planted in her head by someone else (Edsedo? Khivar [who'd obviously WANT history to repeat itself where "the once and future King's" life is concerned]?).

If there's anything here I do feel it was purposefully done by our dear Ron Moore. Since he penned both ASK NOT and MAX IN THE CITY... I feel he WANTED us to see this inconsistency.

Melodious

And of course I went "Snake?" when Tess was telling him everything at his feet (from the Empire State Bldg) was his. But I do not think she is evil, because (one last scriptural reference) she wipes out the bad guys and "no house divided against itself can stand." But there is a precedent to have her killed off like Nasedo. I hope not. After all, poor Kyle is running around half changed.

I did cry a tear at this one (I didn't at TEOTW). It reminded me of 30 years ago when I hung up the phone for the last time on my Romeo Alien. But ***sigh*** this time around on Roswell they will get it right.

Back in Season 1 (let us cast our minds back in time) Max refers to Liz as being Venus.

Then in Four Square, Liz pulls up the star chart for that date (forget that the date continuity is off) she says when Venus is in place it completes the V symbol and that Venus moved into place just about the time Tess arrived.

So, both Tess and Liz have been referred to as Venus, completing the V symbol.

FUTURE MAX telling of destiny>> He said something about they were only stopping them from eloping to early. Okay has anyone ever thought that if LIz had never done what she did Max would have never gone to New York? I mean he would been in lover land with Liz and needed no escape. So there would have been no reason for Liz to save his life, Ava would never have told them about LIz's change.

This all leads back to the Run Lola Run reference in 'Suprise' If you have seen the movie, you know that it is about the 'what ifs' in life. 'What if' you had done something slightly different. Could it change the entire future? I think that Run Lola Run reference was put in there intentionally to give us a clue to something.

~Christina

I think it was Liz's power that transported her to NY to save Max, but I do believe in the connection with Iz helping ignite Liz's powers. I think we have been seeing a development and refinement of Liz's powers from the first flash/vision, and I think the revision of the future that was brought about in TEOTW is allowing the continuation of the development of these powers. I believe they will be more than derivative powers, but powers that stand alone, and will ultimately (or continue to) make Liz and essential piece of the equation!

I liked the connection between Ava and Liz, and wonder why Ava left? Of course, the door is now open for all the dupes to show back up. I'm still wondering how Nick survived. I get the feeling (based on Nick's comments) that Tess was some mean Lady on Twilo in her previous life. I personally do NOT think Tess is a willing participant in the podster's betrayal, but I think that we are in for some interesting revelations about Tess. I also wonder why Lonnie and Rath weren't more forthcoming about their shapeshifting protector, and what happened to him/her??

BTW - love Palomino's Zan possessor theory! Plays nicely into some of our standing theories.

Jury is still out on the final scene. I have only watched it once, but I think she doesn't answer one way or the other - and Max accepts that that is old news that Liz does not wish to discuss. I think Max accepts this and leaves knowing he may never clear it up.

Starbox - I also agree that there was symbolism in the opening scene from the top of the Empire State Bldg. He is soon going to be offered power, and how he deals with that offer will define his character.

I thought it was very interesting the Reaction the other rulers had to finding out that Khivar did not have the Granolith and that Max did. I wonder if the belief that Khivar had the Granolith had given him a edge on the other planets? Ummmm ... AND are we ever going to find out what the Granolith does? Or is this going to be another Megan's Box (Felicity) thing?? AND WHY DIDN'T Max ask Liz about HOW she knew about the Granolith - he mentioned that it had been bugging him???

I thought the comments by the Possessed Brody (PB) were interesting. I don't think history has repeated itself - like someone pointed out already - due to Liz's intervention!! The similarities between the Zan murder and the attempted murder of Max was deliberate - and Liz's intervention changes the outcome!

I've rambled enough, but I have to say, my favorite scene was the Liz/Maria scene by the fountain - that was classic Roswell at its best!!

More when I have time to rewatch!! Feels good to FINALLY get some confirmation of our long held belief! :firehop:

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

I don't feel Tess is evil either. I did see the comparison of Satan/Christ, but merely to show that Tess is possibly the representation of the path Max SHOULDN'T choose (this is the path he took last time and it obviously failed). Tess doesn't realize she's the "snake", the tempter of the *unrighteous* path. I do feel she's doing what she feels *needs to* and *must* be done and she feels it's right... yet whether it truly is or not, I'm highly doubtful. All clues still seem to point to Liz and the path Max should take with her (the correct path). I seriously don't think I'm being all that biased either.

Zan (seemingly) chose and married Ava once... they all died... so what do you do? Let's get recreated into new bodies and make all the same mistakes AGAIN. Not saying there was a direct corrolation between failure and Zan's choosing Ava... but not saying there wasn't either. Zan -- according to Nikolas (so I should take it with a grain of a salt I suppose) -- never seemed to trust the *right* people. That doesn't mean they were (all) *bad*, but possibly incapable of *ruling* or had ideas on *ruling* that weren't necessarily good ideas (good intentions but not right for the kingdom)? Ava (her advisors, family?) possibly influencing these bad Zan decisions?

Melodious

-Yennie

It is the theme song for the movie and I just downloaded it, and there is a verse that really stuck out to me when I heard it and got me thinking how it could relate to Liz. Here it is:
"
I wish I was a starship, in silence flying by
I wish I was a princess, with armies at her hand
I wish I was a ruler, who'd make them understand
"

Any thoughts on this?

Christina

I agree with everyone that saw more into the Ava and Liz scenes. I was jumping up and down with joy when Liz found Ava in the alley. I just knew she was going to take her in. And Ava's nightmare? So amazing, the scenes afterwards with the two of them and then with Michael and Isabel.

I think that Isabel helped Liz find her way, but didn't really have a big part in it. I think that she realized that she wasn't needed to do the task, just to make Liz believe in herself. (Oh, and I loved this scene...I have a little belief, sorry if it's OT, that Liz and Isabel are the main forces in keeping the two different groups together. They're the driving force of both groups. Just had to throw that in there! )

I loved the scene between Liz and Maria...it was so great to see them back together and building their friendship back up.

And I loved the scene with Max and Liz. Max knows something and he won't give up. But he will drop it. He won't meantion it again until Liz brings it up. He'll stand firm on that. He knows that she still loves him more than anything, he just hasn't figured out her reasoning. I'm starting to like the idea more and more of Max accepting Liz back and forgiving her and THEN finding out the truth.

Okay, I'm going to stop now and go to bed and come back tomorrow and start to really do some anaylsis after I've watched it again!

Night all!

And I got the impression at the end that Max did not think Liz slept with Kyle; her look told him that she simply could not tell him otherwise. And his experience in NY showed him that he could trust her.

DeeDee

After her fire spree in Wipeout, Tess as Satan is fitting. I thought it weird that she doesn't remember how she fought back against Rath and Lonnie. Did she wipe them out, too? Is someone else controlling her? I'd assume she's a traitor except she knows where the granilith is. Unless control of the granilith has to be relinquished for a transfer of power to take place.

I don't get any bad vibes from Ava. She seems pure, like the Roswell podsters. It seems like she should have stayed and told what else she probably knows.

With Zan waiting for someone else, Liz must fit in some other way than just having powers. A Chosen One or Fifth Element would fit in here. The granilith being a powerful religious artifact, even being described as their holy grail, must be part of it, too. The step up in religious symbolism has to be leading somewhere.

From what Ava said, Kyle must be changed, too. Though he said he felt changed, he doesn't share the flashes/connection with Max that Liz does, again supporting what's happening to Liz is special.

I hope River Dog comes back, too. Our characters are in desparate need of a mentor/spirit guide right now.

Did anyone see a fourth pod in the sewer? I only saw three.

I LOVE the Zan-coming-to-earth theory.

GRACEKEL - did you pick up Lonnies line to Nicolas "I have CARDS you havent seen yet??"

EVID - thought of you with Liz's "Virgin Mary" pose when she first materialized in NYC

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

About thr granolith what if Liz is the key to using it. Future Max spoke of a Serena what if that was Liz's name in a past life and she is the one who opened the granolith for time travel? One of the biggest things about Liz we have known from the beginning is her love of science especially molecular biology and one of the aliens gifts are how to manipulate molecular structures. Maybe (Liz) Serena is the one who finds out how to manipulate the molecular structure of time like put a whole to divert space and using the granolith as a source of power. I know this is confusing but

I beilive it was Melodious who mentioned the song at the end of MITC and the "chosen One" status and I was thinking about the song I shall Beilive by Sheryl Crow which is played at the end of EOTW. One of the last verses show Liz spinning and Sherly crooning and you hold the key or you are the key I am not sure on the wording. Then in MITC Liz has changed because of her death and Zan never truly loved Ava and Max dosent give up the granolith because of the message from Liz a person he supposedly dosent trust. I think that all this leads up to Liz being the "key" or the "chosen one" Maybe she is needed in the end to help the pods open the granolith and defeat their enemies and maybe that was the reason the parents decided to send them to earth and not another habital planet to find the key

I thought it was great that even Ava had a feeling Zan was waiting for someone else to walk into his life! That means that Liz is the 5th element and is important to the survival of the Royal Four.

But poor Lizzy has it all wrong! Tess and Max don't have to be together in the relationship sense of the word! Tess just has to stay in Roswell. Besides, they have a spare they can contact. I wish they kept that open (like a probe that they could contact Ava with). I'm glad she told Maria the truth!!!

LIZ HAS POWERS!!! Maybe even STRONGER powers than Isabel.

LOTS of BIG hints that she has "CHOOSEN ONE" status.
And Ava and Zan were NOT together because he was "waiting for someone" - (The CHOOSEN ONE??)
Are Liz's powers simply the result of being healed - or is it that her healing was the sign of the prophesied "CHOOSEN ONE"?????? We dont know - but I definately think Ava's actions suggest that it is more than just the result of a healing.

And the big "C" word - "CHANGE" - Liz has CHANGED (just like FMax said she would).

Notice that the DRAGON on Liz's window has been prominent in every single episode this season?

Also - looked to me like Liz and Ava were sharing a strong connection - rather than switched pods for Ava and Tess - could it be that Liz and Ava are connected somehow????

One quick thought - my husband and I both agree that the opening scene with Tess and Max on the empire state building was an obvious parallel to the temptation of Christ.
You just never see someone stand on top of a mountain/building/etc and say "This is where you belong - with all this at your FEET" without it being an allusion to Satan.

**StarBox**
dreamer, mythologist

Starbox I completely agree with everything you said! It is a great point abou the reference to Satan. All great leaders (including Christ) had temptations staring them (or forced into) their face and they have to make sacrifices for the "Greater Good."

Well... I don't know if any of you are familiar with the Wheel of Time series of books by Robert Jordan, but it strikes me that there are definitely similarities between Max and the hero in that story, Rand, who is also called the Dragon Reborn:

1) Rand is a small town boy just going about his business when he is suddenly thrust into a world that seems to either want to worship him or kill him.

2) Rand is a "reborn" version of an historic king.

3) The king was responsible for bringing about the destruction of his empire and nearly destroying his world. (I know the jury is still out about Zan's rule, just thought this might be a connection.)

4) Rand fights his destiny as the reincarnation of this king.

5) Rand is tied to multiple women in his life (three, not just two).

6) Rand has almost no idea of how to tackle the problems he now faces as a ruler. (Max at the summit reminded me particularly of this aspect of the books.)

7) Rand has multi-taloned dragons appear on his lower arms after challenges he must face and conquer. The dragon sticker strongly reminded me of the dragon symbols on his arm.

The similarities may just be linked to Joseph Campbell's Hero Journey, but the dragon sticker just really hit home last night.

Okay, now late for work. Have a great day!

Ree99

It totally grabbed my attention, the look Ava gave Liz when she found out Max "brought her back." Very intense, almost like ( and someone mentioned a prophesy - interesting how alien religion is starting to be brought in this late in the game )it was a thing she had heard about, as in a prophesy. The camera time on her face at this point suggests that for some reason this is *a big deal.*

Anyone notice that the NY squad lived in the sewer of Track 2?

More thoughts after I watch this again tonight.

Change seems to be a very important theme both in EOTH and last night's episode. In EOTW, FM to Liz that she was not allowing herself to change. In MITC, Brody/Larek told Max that he had to learn that change happens slowly , that Max was in too much of a hurry to enact change and that he wouldn't listen. In EOTW, Max would not listen to Liz as she tried to push him toward Tess, which caused her to make her drastic decision.

Also, althought I am definitely not a Tess supporter, I am moved by the fact that both she and Ava seems to be the subject of abuse and mistrust from both the podsters and the Dupes. I believe that part of the change that needs to take place is the treatment of Tess/Ava. Liz definitely if a factor in the way that Max has changed his treatment/support of Tess. In MITC, she stopped Isabel and Michael from doing physical harm to Ava. In so doing, she opened the door for Ava to show her how she had been changed thus allowing her to save Max. I believe (hope) that in the future, Tess will realize what Liz did for her thus alowing her to see that Liz is not "only a human who has nothing to do with the podsters", but a vital part to their survival both on Earth and their home planet.

By the way, has anyone noticed the way that everyone associated with the home planet seems to virtually ignore Tess or never address her as the mate of the king? The highest distinction that seems to have been given to her is "girlfriend" by Nicholas. Wouldn't he of all people, who seem to have memories from the past recognize her?

I have more thoughts that I will post later.

I just thought of this. Elizabeth means "house of God."

I haven't had a chance to read through everyone's responses as of yet since I just got a chance to get on the boards and well... I'm just SO excited after last night that I HAD to post right away!

OK.. the change!!! Ava says Liz "has changed"? We see Liz do a type of dream walk, but it's different. It's a different type of power than Iz, isn't it? She can't be heard.. he can only see her. I guess he could only see Iz too and maybe since Liz is SO new at this she hasn't quite perfected the talk and touch aspect of this little (dare I say) power?

Here's a question though.. what about Kyle? He was "brought back"? There's two theories I have.. either, the obvious, they're both changed and Kyle has yet to figure it out - OR - only Liz was changed because she hasw a much more deeper meaning than just "being brought back" by Max!

Ava's look was CLASSIC when Liz mentioned being brought back. Although, I admit, I started jotting things down the second Ava mentioned Zan not loving her completely and "always looking for someone else to love". Could there be another Liz? Could it be this Serena we've heard so little about?

I have to know though why didn't they grill Ava for information before she left?? It's similar to the why didn't anyone read through CW's files question!

The ending! AHHHH. T is evil. Something's wrong! That whole last scene was bizarre! She had weird looks going on ALL night (first in the sewers, then at the summit). It's either NOT her at the end and Max is bringing home Nickolas or someone evil OR T is in on the whole thing and she'll eventually be the demise!

I'd have to say though.. for us RBI's!? This was an A+ episode to me!!! Liz has POWERS!!!!

But did she really wipe out the bad guys? I mean, how the heck did Nicholas survive that? I've heard the theory that it's because he had greater powers, but, I mean, he's still a skin, we saw his husk. Erf?

PM me if you'd like to talk about this further cause I'm not on FF very much or you could email me at agentdawn1947@hotmail.com and let me know your thoughts on this wavelength..

agentdawn.

And I got the impression at the end that Max did not think Liz slept with Kyle; her look told him that she simply could not tell him otherwise. And his experience in NY showed him that he could trust her.

Shapeshifter I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY about Liz and Maria rejoicing in their virginity! It's nice to know that Girl Power can positively affect girls realizing they can have love without making love in that way! There are plenty of other ways of showing your love for someone (I just wanted to keep you warm springs to mind).

I think Max doesn't really believe that Liz slept with Kyle (I know you Liz and I know you wouldn't do that to me). I think he's dropping it because he knows she can't tell him. I hope he gets a flash when he picks up that strip photo!

EXACTLY! Where did Nick come from?? He was blown away by this T power, yet he's still around? I don't think so! I think it was a T - O - Vision and SHE conjured up the whole *poof be gone* idea with Nick, so that they could get out of there before the force field was lifted. I mean, maybe T could see what was happening with Liz/Maria and Kyle? We really have NO clue to what extent her powers range, ya know!?!?

The ending! AHHHH. T is evil. Something's wrong! That whole last scene was bizarre! She had weird looks going on ALL night (first in the sewers, then at the summit). It's either NOT her at the end and Max is bringing home Nickolas or someone evil OR T is in on the whole thing and she'll eventually be the demise!
[/B]

OOOOOOH - I had not even THOUGHT of this. You are RIGHT! It WAS totally weird. And her line about "going HOME to Roswell" - that was such an "un-Tess" thing to say. since when does she consider ROSWELL "home".
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Could it be Nicolas? Or could it be LONNIE? (Remember her mysterios comment about having "CARDS TO PLAY that she had not SHOWN yet?"s are numebered and we will be seeing Ava again.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
We will have to see what the future holds.
And reggie - I agree - I think Tess's day

lots of repeating history, repeating scenes references here. commendable continuity.

it seems to me that if liz is changed by max, maybe she was changed to a much greater degree than kyle because of all the forced flashes, etc. later. so i don't think kyle will show the same type of powers.

here's my question, why is tess always so jumpy when max is questioned about the granolith? we saw it in WO and here when lonnie asks him the first time tess really looks uneasy, almost overacting the scene. why does she care so much if nick or the dupes learn about the granolith from max? is it because she's in league with them and hasn't told them yet?

any for everyone who wants to get rid of tess, just think if she was gone and ava was in, all lovey-dovey and no great plots to uncover. no fun!

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer
We will have to see what the future holds.
And reggie - I agree - I think Tess's day

GREAT POINT! Since WHEN does T think of Roswell as home? She's always been so "anti-human/Earth/Roswell"! Now all of a sudden, "oh, they tried to get the information, but I wouldn't let them"? BAH! I think not!! I don't trust it!!

Also a good point about Lonnie's comment about the cards. Could she have shifted into T ? We saw her do that into Iz and Rath into Mike - can they shapeshift (of sorts)?

One more thing.. did I miss it or were there not previews for next week's eppy!?

Something did change tonight. When Rath killed Zan it was right after an argument between them and Zan said "I'm the man". Then Rath dropped the ball, Zan tried to get it and was pushed in the street with Ava unable to do anything. Tonight, the same scenario, Max arguing with Rath, ends up saying "I'm the man" and then they try to kill Max while Tess is unable to help.

One difference: Liz saved Max. She has already brought about change. Brody said change is needed.

I really think the writers had to be tying that scenario in, because why would the dialogue "I'm the man" and the replicated scene be in both episodes.

Great catch michworl. The "I'm the man," repeat looked really obvious to me as well. I think the theme of change has been there all season. This time around things have to change or "history will repeat itself." And Liz is definitely intergral to the change, after all, she is the one who says her life is like Run Lola Run.

SF

Ava and Liz's talks were really crucial, it is clear that the show is getting ready to move back to a romance oriented show.

I just think it's vitally important that T has always been someone of a suspicious "person" in the Roswell Group and Ava? Well, she just seemed very pure. Pod switchings? T as a traitor? T as a Skin-Helper? They're ALL possibilities in MY book!!

Oh.. and where did Ava jet off to - get that girl back here to answer some questions!!

A thought: thank goodness Max is thinking clearly again! He KNOWS Liz was not unfaithful--he's just waiting for her to tell him in her own time. It has only taken 9 episodes of season 2, but at last Max and Liz will once again be working together. The best is yet to come!

Chica

How am I supposed to go until the 18th until we find out any more!?!?!?

The suggestion being made about Tess really being Lonnie, is very possible. I'm finding it hard to believe that she incinerated Rath & Lonnie the same way she did the skins.
1. For one thing , Tess would've had to use her powers against 2 of the defective Royal Four. Key word here is "Royal Four" I believe Lonnie & Rath together are just as powerful or even more powerful than Tess. They knew much more about themselves and their powers than the real podsters.
2. Then there's the comment about going home. "home to Roswell" Though that could've been Tess, it very well could've been Lonnie. Don't get me wrong Tess has never really expressed any love for Earth, but what I don't understand is why would she feel she needs to tell Max "I'm ready to go home, to Roswell" Max would already know if she said I'm ready to go home, she meant Roswell. Tess could very well be Lonnie disguising herself to find the Granolith.

Some might ask, Where's Rath?? Well, Lonnie might've killed him after they killed Tess. Remember Nicholas told Lonnie only she could go back to their home planet: he didn't want Rath there. Lonnie has proven that she'll betray (kill) anyone that gets in her way. Brother, Boyfriend, whomever.

And as far as Max goes, this whole plot to assasinate him is NOT over!! Nicholas said that Kivar wants him dead no matter what. I bet there's a much higher price on Max's head right now! With Kivar coming after him and not to mention the other planet leaders who will now be after him. And I believe Liz's importance to the podsters will play a huge part in continuing to keep the the King (Max) alive.

StephStephSteph- I noticed this too. You'd think Tess would've been able to throw one her infamous illusions to stop what was going on. Bottom line I still don't trust her. Or whomever she might be now. Max will not become a great leader if he has a doting bride behind him nodding to everything he says. If Liz were the one with him New York, they would've had an intense discussion about his decision, and he would NOT have been so confused about what to do.

Can I also resurrect my speculation on the importance of 'The Balance' - "...a force that can change both your body and your mind, unless you navigate it properly". I still maintain that this is the difference between the healing of Liz and Kyle. Max was definately in control of the latter healing. I wonder if he inadvertently transferred some of his essence to Liz in the healing, especially if he brought her back to life, after all the pod squad all died and were brought back to life. Perhaps Liz's powers will turn out to be the same as Max's and they will share more than the same soul.

I am very intrigued by the use of symbols throughout the Roswell epi. I have considered many of them but since I am the only one in my household that really gets into the show I have been unable to explore these symbols in great detail.

One of the things I have noticed is the presence of the dragon on Liz/s blinds (I believe someone else noticed this as well). The use of the dragon is interesting because of its many different meanings including that of strength power and protection. In the design of "coat of arms" dragons represent valor and protection. They have been described as the most valiant defender of treasure.

This makes me think of the Granolith and Liz's connection to it. Clearly this is a treasure of unknown potential. Even if Liz's knowledge of it is through Future Max she is still largely responsible for Max refusing to give up this Religious icon.

Are there some yet unrevealed prophecy connecting Liz with the Royal Four and their mission? Of course! I know I am not alone in my belief--otherwise we would not be here trying to solve these riddles.

I totally agree!! This scene jumped out at me with both legs on the floor!!! Did Ava realize at that time that Liz was the one that Zan was looking for? Is Liz really the other podster? Is Liz really the bride?

So many questions and not enough answers.

This makes me think of the Granolith and Liz's connection to it. Clearly this is a treasure of unknown potential.

Interesting point. We've all been wondering what the dragon could mean - this strikes me as a very plausible theory, especially since it's on her window, which is often used as an entrance to her room (mostly by Max, from what I've seen ).

And Liz always seems rather retiring - a defender, certainly, but a dragon? Could this be a little insight into a side of her character we've yet to see?

So many questions and not enough answers.

Me too! I was like what does that mean! What does that mean?! WHAT DOES THAT MEAN!?

Yes, so, why didn't they kill Tess when she "wouldn't let them in"?

I couldn't wait to get home from work to jot down a few thoughts -

Does Max see through the Liz/Kyle thing after watching the last scene of MiTC? You bet. In fact, the more I ponder it the more I think he's spotted the whole thing as a fake from the moment at the window back in EOTW. He's been upset with Liz, not because she slept with Kyle (which she didn't) but because she was unwilling to take a risk on their love when faced with the "destiny" imposed on them by goshknowseverybody, FM and Mommy included.

This risking free will over destiny the central theme of the season for Isabel as well, as she fights Vilandraism, whe're she's cursed by ill-fate in her "destined" betrayal of Max. Odd how Lonnie's words rang so true when she impersonated Isabel in the fight with Max: "it is EXHAUSTING", she said, trying to live with the knowledge of the supposed betrayal (I'm paraphrasing - don't make me go get my vcr remote, you remember what I'm talking about...)

About Ava leaving the way she did - that was so exCIting to me - I think when she realized that a change in the destiny had taken place (via Max healing Liz) she felt surprise, confusion, perhaps shock, then ... LIBERATION! She seemed SO happy when she left - because the universe was her oyster now! It was new beginning! (We see that with Max, too, remember? "I want to start again", he said to Liz. Yippee!

All I can say about the snake is poor Tess, whom I dislike and distrust but now also pity because she's clinging to the hope of this old destiny - someone prophetically said "that's ancient history now" in MITC - I need to go back and see who it was and check the context, but I think the phrase has broad implications!

On Trust - a couple of important things last night: Max left Liz back in Roswell with the feeling that he couldn't trust her (imo, trust her to believe in them and move forward in confidence). In NY there's the whole speech with Tess about how she's always trusted him blindly (imo again, because she believes in destiny). Trust as it relates to free will/determinism again. We should expect to see this theme rear its head again as it relates to Liz and Tess.

And finally, does anyone see a little Serena in Ava?

I know I ramble - perhaps something of merit here...

Let's see if Liz's confiding in Maria about the not-sleeping-with-Kyle thing helps her along the way. I mean, Liz tells Maria she can't because T and Max have to be together - they're stronger that way. Yet, we see Liz use those powers we've all been waiting for!

How strong is Max WITHOUT Liz? She's always there! She's always helping! She's ALWAYS coming to the rescue! She's an even more key factor now than ever.. and this T and Max need to be together crap? Well, let me open the window so we can chuck that theory RIGHT ON OUT!!!!

LIZ HAS POWERS. I knew it, we all did!

Now I can't wait to see how many of the theories the RBI's have come up with turn out being correct.

I know I am still convinced that LIZ is some kind of FIFTH ELEMENT. Especially, now.

I don't think Liz was Max bride back on Twilo but she is his soulmate that he always longed for but could never find back on Twilo.

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!
Grandma Claudia-If it isn't complicated, then he probably isn't a soulmate-LEAVING NORMAL

And finally, does anyone see a little Serena in Ava?

OMG! That is a very interesting thought. I got the feeling that they were becoming very good friends. Plus, Ava seems to know alot more than the rest of the podsters. That combined could=Serena!

Plus, Ava would want to change her name so that she would be less likely to be found by Lonnie or Rath or any of the evil aliens.

SweetJo
I SHALL BELIEVE!!!!!

Together, both Tess and Liz have saved Max several times. In White Room, Tess planed the rescue while Liz brought in the calvery (Valenti)needed to pull it off.

When the Skins captured everyone, it was Liz who went off to deal with the probe while Tess stayed by Max to save them. Again, Liz's intellect and Tess's powers worked together to save the day.

Even in MiTC, Liz working with Ava/DTess work to save Max.

Is it possible, that the relationship Liz was able to have Ava is a forshadowing of what the relationship Liz should have with Tess. Together, Liz and Tess create a strong foundation for Max.

We know from FMax that Tess needs to be around. I think Tess saying she wants to go home to Roswell is the final lock that the sacrifice Liz made worked.

Tempress Tess may be true but not evil. Tess follows Max blindly. She doesn't question him or try to hold him back. "I know whatever decision you make will be a good one." Support is great but not if you are supporting someone jumping off cliffs. Liz provides the balance to Tess's adoration.

Abucted Brody said that Zan tried to do too much before. If Tess was cheering him on unquestioningly, its possible that Liz will counteact Tess's influence.

Liz may be developing powers but what if the powers are passive. Liz shows up in NY physically but unable to move or speak. max might not have seen her. Isabel and Tess, with active powers, are able to get in your brian and communicate. Tess could balance out Liz's passive powers. One thinks, the other acts.

I am a Dreamer. However, a few things about Tess in MiTC struck me. Tess has quit trying to get physical with Max. When Lonni & Rath started making out, Tess was as uncomfortable as Max. When Tess said Zan was a great husband in the last life, she didn't infer Max would be her husband again. Second, when Max said Liz had told him about the granolith's power, Tess did not go off. Tess didn't show any disrespect toward Liz. A simple, "How does she know" and that was it.

I think Tess is starting to see herself as her own person. Tess feels Roswell is home, Max appreciates her,maybe, Tess now sees a role other than Max's mate which brings Liz back in the fold.

Thanksfor yourconsideration.

I couldn't believe that Liz has powers. Does that make her an alien too? And what about Kyle? He got healed. Does he have powers?

Remember last season Nasedo said all their powers were human albiet very advance. I think he also made a comment about how little of the brain is used by humans.

This being the case, if Liz has changed and now has untapped/newly developing powers she would still be human or superhuman

FM says in EOTW that M&L relationship was cemented after they made love.
Well if Liz never met FM, and L/M did have sex that night, then there is no question in my mind that Liz would have gone to NY with Max and NOT Tess. And if she had gone then she wouldn't have been forced to discover her "powers".
Perhalps, in the life that FM lived, Liz didn't discover her powers until much later. And he didn't realize that that info could have the same cementing effect.

I think that at the end of MITC it was actually Lonnie shape shifting into Tess. (Like Nasedo said in TWR to Michael "You've barely tapped into what you are capable of" so I'm sure she is capable. Was this one of the cards she hinted about to Nicolas?)

Since Liz is usually the hero, it will probably be her to first suspect that the Tess who returns to Roswell is an imposter. This means that Max and Liz will have to go find the real Tess. And Maybe, just maybe...she will be so greatfull that Max cared enough to save her, but at the same time realize that Max will never have the same fealings for her as he does for Liz, maybe she will willingly step aside to allow them to be together. (especially if she acknowledges that Liz, with her new found powers, may be a 5th element)

Obviously I'm not convinced that Max and Liz won't be together again (like anyone is). The writers left it wide open with FM's lines of "I don't know anything now...From now on the future is to be determined...We create our own destiny"

I like the idea of Max finding out the truth by geting a flash from the strip of pic's.

WOW, is all I can say about MITC. We should all be proud of our selfs for solving this great mystery. Liz has been changed, or as we like to call it, altered. I was thinking of everyone on this thread when Ava finally revealed this. How many of you held your breath when Ava looked at Liz like she was a miracle, not only because Max saved her, but because Ava realized that Liz was the CHOSEN ONE, she seemed to be in awe of her.
The fact that Zan was waiting for someone, spoke volumes that he must have been waiting for Liz. Zan, like Max, built up a wall, and it was Liz that tore down Max's, or made him come out from behind the tree. Zan had not found Liz and must have lost hope.
I think Liz Dream Walked all on her own, Iz opened her eyes and just seemed to give Liz her support. So on Liz's first try, she got to Max all the way in New York and also while he was wide awake. Just how powerful is our Liz going to be?
The Granolith was compared to the Holy Grail, a religious symbol that Max's people worshipped and someting that Max was intrusted with. So who intrusted it to Max? Why was it sent to Earth, and of all places, Roswell NM?
Who is it that has a family that has lived in Roswell for four generations? Who is it that had both the King and the Dupe king searching for her? Who have we connected to religious symbols and therefore the Granolith? Who found the orb? Who was around for the successful healing and the Mom-o-gram? She goes by one simple three letter name, LIZ.
I think we will find many more answers, if we continue on this path to prove that Liz is indeed very Important to the Alien Mythology.
Zero: Thank you for starting this thread, it's been a great ride.

Your the one Liz, the only one. ~Max~
Evid

*sits and waits patiently - sorta*

If it's low in the west, just after sunset and in about the same place, that's Venus. You may be able to see a half-moon shape, through your binoculars.

Just a few comments:

quote:Originally posted by czech please:
...I wonder if the Granolith doesn't do something similar (amplify powers). More than ever I am convinced that Liz is somehow connected to it. What will happen when she is actually in the same room with it?
Have you been reading fan fiction lately? There is a fantastic trilogy by Ash which runs along these same lines, except the orb has the ability to influence and change others. At the moment I'm not so sure if the Granolith serves as a conduit. I think the change in Liz took place during the healing and perhaps also with the reverse connection. And I'll get back to this in a minute.

I think StarBox, Melodious, & others are on to something with this reference to Christ and the temptation at the Empire State building. I believe that, yes, the writers are accessing our subconscious with these references. And, yes, they often refer to Max. BUT, you know, the more eps I see, the more it seems they also refer to Liz as the Savior. She is what we call the "chosen one". She comes up with plans to save the podsquad. She sacrifices her future for the good of the world. She rescues Max from certain death by appearing in NYC thereby changing history. I'm just hoping she really doesn't have to die to save the world, unless, of course, she rises again. Hmm, nevermind, I'm going to be selfish - I want Max and Liz back together, screw the world.

Well anyway, on the subject of deliverance, I know a number of you are dreamers, but don't always make it over to the Cherishing thread. I have a really wonderful suggestion that ties in with the above theory. Please download this music video that JenDaze made. It is all M/L clips done to the song "Deliver Me" by Sarah Brightman. It is SOOOO worth the download time. You won't be disappointed. http://www.geocities.com/ros_filing_cabinet/bugged/mixes.html

Also on the religious symbolism front, I noticed the same thing about Liz's stance when she appears in NYC to save Max. At the time, it set off buzzers in my head. Like "I know I've seen that somewhere, now where was it?" She stands straight legs together, arms at her side, hands splayed flat out. I wasn't sure if it was referring to Christ, but now I see. Thanks StarBox.
quote:Originally posted by Starbox:EVID - thought of you with Liz's "Virgin Mary" pose when she first materialized in NYC.

I definitely think that all this religious symbolism is put in there for a reason. All of these references to saving must be leading somewhere. Will Liz redeem Max and his "sins" in his previous life? Is the talk of the Granolith as a "Holy Grail" suggesting that the war on Twilo is more than just civil... is it a religious war also? Hmmm....

Well, I still can't get over that loaded moment when Ava realizes Liz is changed. It's as if she is thinking back on some bit of knowledge from her previous life. I think she is thinking back on a prophecy. She knows Zan was waiting for someone important and she realizes Max has found the "one". Anyway, just thought I'd post this collage again. I love it when our theories actually materialize before us.

Sorry that was so long.

The other thing was when Max was talking to Larek after he has refused the "offer". It was brought up somewhere here that Prince Zan in former life may have been studying Earth as some kind of model. Well, Larek says (loosely quoting) that he tried to tell Zan that the change couldn't be effected so quickly, "...but you just kept - Oh, what's the point. That's all ancient history now."

WHAT did Zan keep doing? Maybe going to Earth?

Oh, and I think there were only three pods in the Track 2 crib.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I have believed since the beginning that she is somehow connected with the podsters especially Max. And the connection is finally coming in to the forefront!

I'm not sure if this has been brought up already or answered but when I was watching MITC I noticed only three pods in the sewer. I rewatched that scene five times to make sure and I don't see a fourth. Anyone else notice that? Any thoughts?

Anywho, congrats! We're a bunch of sleuths. Can't wait to see what awaits. And what's this I hear about having to wait 3 WEEKS for a new episode?!?!

Amber

i can't wait to see what else has changed in liz. getting mighty interesting.

i have to say that i have warmed up to ava so much more so than tess. also can't wait until max finds out the truth about liz and kyle. i loved the liz & maria moment when all came into the light. liz declaring that she loves max. my dreamer heart is happy.

Definitely low, in the west and powerfully bright last night! Very fun, I thought! Did anyone else notice?

I don't know if this makes any sense to any one else, it's just a thought I had.

Tess saying she is "going home to Roswell" simply means that Liz was successful--at least thus far. But as (I think?) Elliot posted, Tess seems to be even more in love with Max now than before. And I got a real chill when Tess asked how did she (Liz) know about the Granolith. The way Emilie said "she" you could see the italics.

Moderators, please be patient, Zero is about to start the next thread any moment (hour) now. She just got back from a long journey to the city.

I don't know if this makes any sense to any one else, it's just a thought I had.

that does make sense. why else would ava react that way. the prophecy may have just come true. it's a good thing that the rath and lonnie don't know about that. if is a prophecy, they learned about it, they might attempt to hurt or kill liz. she may have changed, but i don't think she has any alien powers to fend them off.... max, the protector? in the momogram, "... you will only know them by the evil within..." since liz changed, she could be the one that "sniffs" out the baddies. she saw all the blackness when maxcedo kiss her. she is the key to defeating kivar. she probably also has the key to the granolith, just that she doesn't know it yet.

I've been a bit of a lurker but I have a lot of ideas about what has/is/will happen on the show, so I've finally started posting.

I also noticed that there were only 3 pods in NY. and I have a somewhat long theory on why. So hopefully no one else has already come to the same conclusion as myself.

On the other hand, Liz is strong. She always gives suggestions, finds solutions to problems. Maybe in order for Max to succeed he needs a strong partner willing to help him rule the planet not a weak partner willing to go along with anything he says. In a previous posting, Estrella mentioned that a dragon (in Liz's window) also symbolizes strength.

I couldn't get the image thing to work, so just go look! erf

I've been a bit of a lurker but I have a lot of ideas about what has/is/will happen on the show, so I've finally started posting.

I also noticed that there were only 3 pods in NY. and I have a somewhat long theory on why. So hopefully no one else has already come to the same conclusion as myself.Welcome 1wld4L/M
Actually, we love it when we come up with the same theories independently. So I won't tell you what the theory is on The Three NY Pods so far (so I won't influence you before you post your idea)...unless you want to read what's already been posted here and on the Sci Fi thread (and probably elsewhere) and then build on (or digress) from those ideas. Either way, it's okay!

I don't know if this makes any sense to any one else, it's just a thought I had.

I think that would make a lot of sense, and I love that theory!! I really hope it will be true........

We saw that one of the pods was leaking, (maybe this was because of some US Gov. tampering, or damage caused during the escape) and I think that this damaged pod actually belonged with the true royal 4 (not the rejects of NY) and this pod contained none other than Ava.
But possiblely another alien (NOT Nasedo)was affraid to send the 4 rejects to NY, in fear that Ava might not make it, or be damaged, weakening the power of the Royal 4. So perhalps he sent the 3 to NY, but held onto Tess for insurance. Then later, Nasedo took Ava to NY. Either by mistake, or on purpose, since Tess may have been stronger/healthier/ less human, which would've appealed to Nasedo more.

Anyway, I would love to hear what you all think!!

I'll be sure to post some more of my ideas and questions.

He says something like...(bare with me)
"Yes, Kavar does not have the Granolith, and yes we've known this for a while"...etc.

I thought that Congress Woman Whitaker told Isabelle that she has been looking for the Granolith for 50yrs. (I maybe I just assumed that)

But I always thought that the granolith was somehow placed on earth at the time of the crash in '47, but after what Nicolas said...I'm beginning to think that it must have been brought here more recently, possibley in '88, the year that the pods "spontaneously" hatched.?.

Well consider this one.
I believe Liz is either the "CHOSEN ONE" or the "FIFTH ELEMENT". Has anyone seen the movie the FIFTH ELEMENT? Well in the movie there are four stones that represent FIRE, WATER, AIR, and EARTH. Then there is the FIFTH ELEMENT. In the movie they had to have all the stones because without them the fifth element would be useless to save the world. Each stone contained a different element and are important in the balance of life. DOES THIS IN ANY WAY SOUND FAMILIAR.The protectors of the stones were from another planet or something and the stones were even hidden away so that no one but the FIFTH ELEMENT would know where to find it and use it at that.

Anyway, remember when Tess SUPPOSEDLY killed the skins with fire, maybe Tess represents fire. I have no idea who the others would represent because this is just a guess. But I honestly think Tess is in on the whole thing with the dupes, the skins, and whoever else wants the granolith or the royal four out of the picture. Question-If Rath and Lonnie took Tess why would Max easily find her sitting on the floor? Rath and especially Lonnie aren't thoughtful in any way, shape, or form so they would have killed her easily without thinking twice about it. I think some shapeshifter or even Lonnie took her place. Who knows, anything is possible in Roswell.

Oh, thank goodness Liz finally opened her mouth and told Maria what happened in EOTW ep. Now we got to wait another couple of eps so MAX can find out.

Gotta MAX
Max:"It was you.."

i had just posted something like that on the scifi board. i think that ava was the leaking pod and the evilness was leaking out of her sac... making her defective. but i think ava was the original podster and tess a dupe and since she was intact, she was to go w/ the podsters. ava seems more human than rath and lonnie, whom at every chance reeks of evil. tess got the better of the deal than ava. nacedo is definitely not father material but at least she's learned some human characteristics... esp living w/ the valenti men. ava got the short end of the stick but she still has the innate human feelings. she seems to be like the square wheel w/ zan, rath, & lonnie. i'm still suspicious of tess and i still don't trust her.... how can you defend yourself from lonnie & rath "mind raping" you and still be in a meditation stance? i think it would have been more feasable if max found tess lying on the floor in exhaustion rather than in that meditation stance. something's not right...

just my rambling 2 cents

(azcat, to get your picture to show, what you did was just fine, except you need to leave no space at all between the image tags [ img ] and the image location. Just butt them right together like this: [tag]location[/tag]. Don't give up now, you were really close.)

(Also, I posted the larger version, assuming that's what you wanted.)

Zero
I Shall Believe!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I agree with you that something is up with Tess. If you get a chance...read my post on page 9 of this thread.

I think that the Tess we saw was no doubt an imposter!! Most likely Lonnie.

Make that page 10, not 9.

Oh, and I wanted to respond to what Willow42 had to say about the theory revolving around Lillith, Ava, Eve, etc.
Well, to my knowledge, we all just know that Zan/Max made bad decisions while back in his home planet. Well, what I don't understand is simply this: Who were his advisors?
It's rare for a ruler to do his work without a set of people to advise him. I'm wondering how much effect his "bride" Tess had upon him? If we were to follow the whole theory about Adam and Eve we would find some interesting similarities. Although Eve wasn't necessarily evil, she had a strong influence upon him that resulted in their exile from the Garden of Eden. Sooo...let me put this in relation to Tess/Ava and Max/Zan.
Is it possible that as his "young bride" Tess somehow was elemental in influencing Zan's decisions? Did their home planet result in war and suffering because Tess possibly influenced Zan to make the wrong decision? I mean history and literature seem to capture many women in a position of power in terms of their influence upon men. In Shakespeare it was Lady MacBeth, and in Ancient Egypt it was Antony and Cleopatra.
These women were able to infiltrate and change the coarse of their homelands/countries histories.
Is his "young bride" Tess an exception?

OR...There could be a whole other reason entirely.

Another possibility is that Liz perhaps represents Eve in the sense that she is the other half of Adam, who in this case is Max/Zan. Tess could be the snake, an advisor? It's possible...it would explain why Tess came along with the others.
Let's see:
Michael: Officer in Command
Isabel: Sister/Vilandra
Tess: Advisor, councelor...etc.
Liz: Young Bride
Max: Leader.

There is a lot of issues revolving about the past repeating itself...but what remains unspoken is the fact that despite the reoccurrence of past events, there are certain actions and individuals who change. According to karma each life we live, depending upon how good/bad we were before dying, has an effect upon who we wind up being in the future. Is it possible that the "young bride" that died upon Max's home planet was Liz? Also, the fact that Max saved Liz from dying at the Crashdown ultimately changed their destinies. The reason I mention this is because in previous chats/threads there is mention that the "young bride" dies. In terms of the others in the Pod Squad, I don't think it's fair to assume that because they are aliens that their feelings are completely different. If Vilandra was willing to sacrifice her family for a great love express the fact that their emotions are not completely different from humans? Perhaps Earth is a place that is similar to their home planet in terms of their characteristics and emotions...just a thought.
These are my ideas, and maybe it'll give you all something to think about in between new episodes.
I just hope that
finally realize how important they are to each other and the way they function

In EOTW Liz said to Max that the title was really "The TRAGEDY of Romeo and Juliet". However, I have read this play many times and I don't feel that Liz and Max replicate them very well.. But I havn't been able to think of a couple that they do remind me of..

I am going somewhere with this I promise..

Okay, so the reason I ask is because of this. Take your average person, they go to see a movie and they leave thinking "hey, that was a good movie. That was a good writer".. but what they don't realize is that the writer is a four hundered year old adulterer named Will Shakes...somthin..

My point being, if we can find the couple that are really like Liz and Max we may be able to figure out where the story is heading, or at least whats up with Liz and Max. Because than we know where the writers are getting the inspiration from.

BUT, and this is a big one It could just all be chance. I think it will be fun just the same.. So everyone, any ideas?

Just wondering?