The following is a summary (sorry it is so long!) of some of the thoughts and theories that have been expressed on the previous threads. I try to incorporate new theories as we move through Season 2 and new clues are unveiled, however, not all theories are covered in-depth. Our basic thesis is that LIZ IS AN IMPORTANT AND ESSENTIAL ELEMENT TO THE ALIEN MYTHOLOGY.

Liz’s importance to the pod squad – and the survival of the human race for that matter - and theories concerning the beings and mysteries swirling around Liz – are what we dissect. So – feel free to join on in, or just lurk! And don’t worry about going off on a tangent – they all tend to lead back to Liz’s importance!

First – and foremost – the general consensus is that Liz is important to the alien mythology and the pod squad, and that there is more to the Liz/Max connection than a mere attraction (i.e., a crush). From that first look – Max getting off the bus in Kindergarten (or 1st grade – time seems to be operating in many dimensions recently ) - Max has been strongly attracted to Liz. Max often makes comments such as “It was You!” and “I’m coming for You!” that leads us to believe that her importance to him was beyond the bounds of “normal.” How Liz is important is where the fun – and this thread! - comes in. We now know that if things had continued on the “previous” course, Liz and Max would end up married, but that all H#** would break loose, resulting in Earth being taken over by their enemies (Skins? – we don’t know since FM never says, but now that we know there are 5 planets involved (MITC), their “enemies” could come in numerous shapes and sizes from a number of places) in 2014 – all due to the cementing of the L&M connection (and Tess’ leaving the group as a result of that connection) – a connection that Liz has broken by her deception at Future Max’s urging in TEOTW. But, has she truly broken that connection irreparably or just temporarily? It appears that Max can’t let go of the connection, but after events in NY is willing to give their friendship another try, and that there is MORE to that connection as we have always assumed. Lets go back to the beginning, since few questions re: that connection have been answered in this Season – though we did get some vital information in MITC!

Most believe that when Max healed Liz and then caused a "reverse connection" (Pilot), that something changed in Liz – whether the change was new or an awakening of something already a part of her is not known. After MITC, we now KNOW that LIZ HAS CHANGED (or is changing – maybe the change that FM said she had to have occur!) as a result of Max “bringing her back,” but Ava’s reaction to hearing this news seems to imply that something more is involved – but more on that later! Many feel there is something that goes to the core of who Liz is:
· Maybe from a past life on the pod squads planet? (Is she the true love of Max’s previous life? But if so, why did she disappear in Wipeout?)
· Could Liz or her essence have had a previous life encounter with Max’s alien “essence” or human DNA donor here on Earth? Maybe Max’s alien predecessor conducted reconnaissance through possessing a human, and somehow “met” a predecessor to Liz?
· Was Liz the original “4th” podster (and Max’s true mate) who “hatched” early, failed to have her alien essence develop completely, and was humanized by her human parents? (Though this seems unlikely now that we know that Tess has a dupe in Ava. Why did they show that leaking pod in Sof47, and is it relevant to Liz?)
· Was Liz the "second in command" referred to in the Mom'ogram, who somehow (deliberately?) was separated from the group and sent separately to Earth? (Again this seems highly unlikely after MTD & MITC.)
· Could Liz be the Trojan Horse – containing something within her of importance to the podsters or their enemies – or contain the essence of a Leader, such as part of Max’s alien essence, that draws him to her?
· Could she be the 5th Element prophesized about back on Twilo? And the reason Earth was chosen as the hiding place for the Royal 4 x 2? Could this explain Ava’s reaction to hearing Liz’s story – she had heard this story foretold before? ;
· Could it just be Liz's advanced human intelligence (she is a self-admitted “nerd”) that "connects" her to Max. (Let’s hear it for Smart Girls! )

These are just a few of the many theories offered. The connection that Max had to Liz started the day he first got off the bus in kindergarten (or 1st grade) and saw her, and was awakened in Liz by the healing and reverse connection that occurred in the Pilot. (And would that connection have also existed with Zan if he had ever seen Liz? Zan apparently had been waiting and searching for someone special. I guess we will never know, unless Zan could somehow be brought back to life with the healing stones – anything is possible??) Liz seems to have been drawn to Max prior to the healing, too, but figured he was not interested in her (“Maria, this Face? Max Evans? No Way?) – they obviously knew each other since 3rd grade, and were acquaintances and lab partners. Some have wondered if the way Max held the back of Liz’s neck during the healing could have changed her cerebral cortex – the location that Pierce said the Special Unit had identified as the source of the aliens’ powers – powers that are all human (according to Harding). Could the number of connections also come into play into “changing” Liz, or awaking an already – yet dormant – power within her? Ava’s reaction seems to Liz’s story seems to imply that the healing alone was enough for the change – but … what about Kyle? There seems to be more to it than that!

Many have wondered about Liz’s origins – are her parents her true birth parents or is she adopted like the Evans kids, does she have a connection to the Indians or an (ancient) alien race, why does she look so much like Sheila Hubble – and how this plays into the connection with Max and her new found “abilities/powers”? Is Liz totally of human origin or does she have some alien “blood” - literally or figuratively – in her that allowed for the change to occur? We know that Liz’s cheek cells differed from Max’s in the Pilot, BUT we did not see what another “human’s” cheek cells looked like, so it is possible that Liz’s cells are different, too. (Though a doctor probably would have picked up on this by now; however, what if there are many variations of cellular structures in the alien worlds, and Liz matches one of these?) Could Liz be descended from an alien race that colonized Earth thousands of years ago? (This is my personal favorite theory!! ) We now know there are at least 5 planets involved in the conflict, each with (presumably) at least one race of inhabitants – any one of which could have come to Earth to colonize years ago. Could that ancient race somehow be connected to the podsters’ people from long ago? How does the Granolith fit into this? We know that the Granolith CAN be used as a time travel machine, but this is NOT its intended purpose. What is its intended purpose? It is obviously of great importance – maybe the Holy Grail of V constellation? Did you see the reaction of the other “leaders” when informed that Khivar was not in possession of the Granolith, and that it was on Earth under Max’s guard? Could the Parkers (who have resided in Roswell for 4 generations) be the protectors of the Granolith, or could the Indians in the area be such protectors? Was the Granolith used by others than FM to travel in time (apparently Liz and future friend Serena were the ones to make it work as a time machine – so did others have a chance to use it this way?). (So, many questions – still! … !)

"Soulmates" seems to be a continuing term used when referring to Max and Liz, and we all seem to think this is done for a reason. Though much is made of Max’s Destiny being Tess , many of us wonder if Liz is actually his Destiny due to the use of the Human DNA and where it came from, or some past alien connection or other prophecy. The use of that human DNA could have totally altered the previously “planned” destiny. There is also much thought given to whether the alien Max played out his “destiny” on his home planet when killed in the conflict that envelopes that place, and that now has an entire new “destiny” that includes Liz – one that could not have been anticipated by his home planet creators OR well planned out knowing that a human alliance would be necessary to save both the podsters’ people and the human race. Could the Max/Liz alliance be foretold in an ancient Indian or alien prophecy? (One of my personal favorite theories! Is she the necessary “5th Element – see below.) This would explain Ava’s reaction – maybe she had “heard” the prophecy or Zan’s searching was tied to it somehow! Most of us draw a clear distinction between someone’s “destiny” and “duty.” We – mostly – also believe that by using human DNA for the pod squad, and the fact that they were raised as humans, brings the issue of “free choice” into play. The continuing debate of “nature” vs. “nurture” also comes up here – and is the podsquad’s “nature” completely “alien” given that all their powers are “human.” Watching the difference between the two pod groups truly brings the Nurture element to the forefront. There has also been an excellent analysis of what “essence” truly means, and can a being’s destiny or soul follow the transfer of one’s essence. Could the essence of one being have been split between two beings – Max and Liz (and Zan)? Also, does one’s memory follow one’s essence? Tess seems to think it does, but … why is she the only one with these memory retrieval abilities among the podsters? Though the Dupes do seem to have memories, at least Lonnie does, of the previous life, though we do not know how much of this was taught them by their shapeshifter. (None of us are too fond or trusting of Tess , and that distrust only seems to be increasing with time!) Are the visions Max’s alien being’s memories (like that flash of a weird head he gets before confronting Brody), or are they coming from someone or somewhere else? We now know Max has the V formation (the royal seal) tattooed on his brain! There have also been many wonderful discussions concerning what "destiny" truly means, and how the environment (the "nurture" argument) can affect one's destiny. Also, is history destined to repeat itself – an important issue now with the introduction of the Vilandra storyline and the secrets being kept by the podsters from one-another. We now know that Liz has prevented the past from repeating itself (Zan was killed through treachery on Twilo, then Zan-reborn was killed through treachery again in NY, but Max survived due to Liz’s new found power and intervention! As Future Max emphasized: “We make our own Destiny!” Maybe yes, maybe no??

Following one’s heart has been a focus in both seasons now. Grandma Claudia told Liz to follow her heart (LN), and then Liz followed her heart and believed Max when Tess showed up on the scene (TLV). Now Maria tells Max to follow his heart (AN), like all the great leaders have. Does this mean that by following their hearts Max and Liz will not only turn out to be great leaders, but will eventually be led back to one another? Given the current strain on their relationship, Max will have to follow his heart in order to be led back to Liz. He has already begun the journey with his decision to be her friend once again.

The symbolism throughout the seasons is incredible – whether meant to be or not! I can only touch on some of it here, but here are some examples. Max changes his cards from a royal pair to two diamonds so that Liz’s Dad (who is asking Max what he is hiding!) can win the round of cards. The two diamonds have popped up again recently on the beer Michael holds in Sof47. Are Max and Liz the two diamonds in hiding? Is it “in the cards” as Lonnie says? Once you notice it, the diamond shape shows up often. Eagles and horses also seem to show up often – and again, we can tie them to Liz and Max – the most notable example being the Indian myth that states that the eagle feather needs both sides to be “in balance.” Max and Liz must follow their hearts to each other to find that connection and balance! There is a prominent picture of a Viking (?) Ship that is tied to a tale directly relevant to our star-crossed lovers and their trials. Red roses (love) are thrown by Max to Liz, than changed to White roses (peace) at the last minute in an episode (TEOTW) that Liz must sacrifice her love for Max to ensure peace on Earth. There are lots of others! Coincidence?? Probably some are, but not all of them – JK and RM are too intelligent for that!

In the Mom‘ogram, many have wondered if the reference to Max’s young “bride” has to be to Tess (The Evil Shape Shifter – Grace Kel )? Could it be Liz? (Though most accept that Tess/Ava were the “bride.”) And why do they always use the word “bride”? Was the marriage never completed, or were they killed on the day of the wedding? (Larak – one of the alien leaders mentioned attending Max’s wedding, and never mentioned that the slaughter occurred that day.) Though many seem to accept that “bride” probably is referring to Tess, many wonder why they would send his bride in the first place? Was Tess sent solely to provide a “mate” for Max (please – no gagging allowed on this thread), or was there another purpose for her presence? Why send a mate, unless the goal was to produce offspring and successors to the throne. (Zan and Ava didn’t seem to be working at producing off-spring.) Future Max states that the 4 podsters made a complete unit that needed to be kept together because of their different gifts – why make it so complicated? Do the Dupes have identical powers as their twin counterparts, or different powers? Why did they kill off one of their “unit” if it weakens them? There is also the question of whether the Mom’ogram is authentic, or a projection from Tess? (Did the Dupes see a similar projection?) It was hard to tell when Tess’ projections/illusions left off and reality began. Was it pre-recorded like a video tape (in which case – is the home planet still in existence, or has it been destroyed by war or natural consequences? Apparently, it survives with Khivar in power – but with much “bloodshed”), or was it a direct communication with the home planet or a hidden spaceship (hidden by the V formation?)? The same concerns are raised with the “book” found by Tess with respect to its authenticity and reliability. Why does the book only include the four podsters now that we know there were two sets of pods and duplicates? What is the meaning of the symbol on the front? The (.) symbol is of significance, meaning the Black Moon and representing Lillith (you have to read Starbox’s post about the relationship of Adam, Eve and Lillith to understand – but it is significant!). If this book is an instruction or operations manual for the podsquad, why have they not deciphered it by now? Could Grandma Claudia’s book – which is in Liz’s possession (we assume) - help decode the alien’s book and shed light on the aliens’ connection to the Indians, an ancient alien race or others in the area? If the alien book is authentic, how did the aliens know exactly what the pod squad would look like when they grew up? Were they “engineered” to that degree of precision (with tattoos on their brains), and if so, why use human form? Why was the Earth chosen?? (Lots of discussion re: DNA, cloning, etc. - very interesting! ) Is there any information in Whitaker’s files about translating the book, or resolving some of the mysteries surrounding the podsters?? WHY DID IT Take the announced death of Whitaker to get them to finally go through her files!!!! AND WHY DIDN’T THEY ASK COURTNEY AND AVA MORE QUESTIONS!!! (Sorry …a bit of a rant!)

Liz is also viewed – when the episodes are rewatched (multiple times by some of us! And in slow motion with a jog-shuttle! We fondly call this “Grace Kelled” ) – as a critical element to moving the plot along. She is the one who often initiates the actions that help unravel the aliens’ mythology or saves the day (e.g., thinking of the plan to throw Valenti off the trail in the Pilot, finding the way out of the hidden room at Atherton’s place, making the initial contact with River Dog, going to Valenti to seek help in rescuing Max, identifying where the skeleton would be taken, potentially sacrificing her future with Max to prevent Tess from leaving and the future take-over of the Earth, figuring out how the humans had disappeared and how to bring them back, and connecting with Max to save his life in NY.). Liz is a leader that takes action when it is needed, and is the intellect that comes up with the plan (Future Liz was the one that sent FM back in time, and Liz was the one to come up with the plan to make Max ‘fall out of love with her’). She could possibly be the equivalent to Max – whom we found out is the once and future leader of his people – though apparently of questionable abilities and judgment (who knows who to believe on this one??). Could Liz be the human equivalent of Max that is here to help Max save the human race, as well as free the pod squad’s people? Again – Does Liz’s connection “complete” Max, and bring him into “balance”? Could she possess part of Max’s alien essence? Is Liz the 5th Element, necessary to bring power and balance to the Royal 4? Liz is also a brain – which is relevant when we find out in the White Room that the podsters are just very advanced humans (approximately 3000 years ahead of us normal mortals!). Could her intelligence mean that she has the potential to obtain some of the “powers” that the pod squad have? Many had expressed that they would NOT be surprised if Liz would be capable of some advanced powers in the future, and that her visions may be just a precursor to these. NOW WE KNOW LIZ HAS POWERS – just not the extent of those powers, whether they are still developing, and how the visions play into the powers! Will she be the one able to see the evil within as the Mom’ogram says the podsters will have to be able to do? Is that what she was "seeing" when she kissed Harding/Evil Max? Does she only get visions while kissing or in a state of heightened emotion (i.e., the hand touching in SH in Chemistry class; arm touch in Ask Not – did you notice the first vision was of traveling through space)? The aliens supposedly get such visions sometimes according to Max in Missing – remember the vision he got of Kyle in Liz’s bedroom and the visions Iz gets in Surprise (though those may have been “planted” visions like Tess is able to do). And why did Max have visions that belonged to Liz when he was being MRd by Nicholas? Is their connection that strong? Max seemed to get visions from those closest to him – Iz, Mikey G and Liz – while being MRd, but none from Tess – his supposed mate. Why? AND when is he going to get a vision of FM and what Liz has sacrificed?

All of Liz’s visions have been examined in-depth, and it is hard to summarize (is that what I’m doing?? Opps!) all the thoughts here. We also now know that Kyle did not get visions of Max during Kyle’s healing – which is not huge, but goes to the question - WHY is LIZ the ONLY human to have VISIONS? Is this one of her new “powers”? Not only has she been able to “see into Max’s soul,” but also she has seen travels through space and a distant galaxy, the crash on Earth, and her visions were the reason the second communicator was discovered. Many feel these visions were not coming from Max, but from an outside source – or a source INTERNAL to Liz just now being released or awakened. Some of the visions seemed to be from the perspective of the communicator itself or an alien hiding it (a deep breathing – out-of-breath alien). Some wonder if others - aliens? - have observed Liz for some time. The shot came from two “strangers” who mention – “We have to get rid of her” – in the background (listen carefully while Liz shows the alien picture to the tourist couple) right before she is shot. Was her shooting intentional – and if so, WHY (and by whom – shapeshifter, time travelers, other aliens)?? Why would anyone (or any being) "watch" Liz prior to the shooting unless she has an importance we are not aware of yet (though we suspect, and TEOTW & MITC seem to confirm somewhat)? And who’s eyes are we seeing through watching Liz and Maria at the beginning of Wipe Out? The same eyes that watched Max at school and Harding by his car in the alley? Could this be Tic Tac - another alien that we believe has been watching them – Liz included? (I do not believe that Harding, Nasedo and Tic Tac were all one and the same shapeshifter!) Now that we know that time-travel is possible, has this come into play already in a way we are not aware of – yet? Could this we the THIRD time around, similar to “Run, Lola, Run”? (First scenario being Liz doesn’t get shot and rescued by Max, thus they never connect and she never develops her powers, the second being Liz gets shot and marries Max at age 19 but fails to develop her powers fully, and the third being the path we are on now!) OH – and what will Liz do with the knowledge she now has concerning the Granolith – she did warn Max before he so rudely left for NY - and the potential for Tess to leave or turn evil (by not helping the podsters)? Won’t someone (Max) wonder how she knows these things? Her knowledge concerning the Granolith has already begun to bug him – it has to eat at him now that he knows she has been changed!!

The picture Liz shows the tourists in the Pilot was supposedly taken by her Grandmother at the crash before the military arrived – a connection or just a joke as we were supposed to think?? Could GC be Yvonne White (as in “peace”) who disappeared in Sof47, only to resurface with her married name – Claudia Parker? Many have speculated about Grandma Claudia’s involvement and her book about the Ancient Treasures of the Navajo Indians. Could Grandma Claudia have had contact with the aliens previously? Was Grandma Claudia killed intentionally? Did she know that Liz was “special,” thus, necessitating the early arrival and that “soulmate” discussion? Is Liz affected or a product of one of these earlier alien contacts? Could Liz have an alien relative – recent or distant? There seems to be many hints connecting ancient Indian cultures to the podsquad or other aliens, including the Machu Picchu in Peru culture highlighted at the UFO Museum, the continuing references to “ancient languages” (e.g., Liz’s Blind Date Doug Shellow’s major at the UofNM and where the aliens’ manual was hidden in the library), the traditional Indian music in the background throughout MITC, and Grandma Claudia’s studies. Only coincidence? We think not! Could Liz’s review of her Grandmother’s possessions in Season 2 reveal those connections? We are hopeful! (COME ON WRITERS – WHERE ARE THE INDIAN CONNECTIONS FROM SEASON 1? WHY ISN”T ANYONE READING GC’s BOOK? WHERE IS THE DETECTIVE IN THE SCOOBY GANG!!)

Another major topic of interest is Liz’s connection to Sheila Hubble! The resemblance between the two is amazing, and other parallels exist (e.g., pictures of both driving in an open-air car with the wind blowing through their dark hair). Plus, the visions that Liz receives from Max/Harding include Hubble’s wife at the death scene – meaning it had some significance to him. Did he kill her, or did the handprint come from a failed attempt to save her? Were the fireworks Hubble mentions seeing when kissing his wife the same as the stars Liz sees when kissing Max? Could Sheila Hubble be related to Liz somehow – an aunt, DNA donor, or was Sheila an alien? The fact that Sheila Hubble was three months pregnant with a girl seems to be relevant somehow – why else would they mention it?! Could the DNA from the girl or a twin have been used for the podsquad – Max maybe, or Tess – or for Liz? AND why is Tess' mother's name listed as Sheila on her school records? Everett Hubble, Ed Harding - both EH names with a wife named Sheila - INTERESTING! Ummmm!

Speaking of connections – Is Hal Carver somehow connected to Liz? He lives in Florida – the state Liz spent the entire summer. Who was Liz staying with?? He was friends with her grandfather, Pete Parker. Did the aliens residing in Florida influence the vote count for the President? Ummmmm?

Liz’s ability to “see” into Evil Max/Harding’s “soul” again points to the possibility that she may ultimately be able to “see the evil within.” What is it that she sees in these visions? Sheila Hubble, Lightening, a wormhole (the Granolith at work??), the high desert, clouds rolling in? Some see sea foam, which is related in mythology to Venus. Is Liz the Venus often referred to? The Venus constellation is often referred to in connection with Liz (e.g., Max in response to Liz saying her parents are on a trip to see Venus in the morning sky says “I thought she was standing in front of me.”). There are too many interesting connections for Venus not to mean anything, and we now know the V constellation is the Royal Crest with the home planet being the Venus Star at the bottom. Some example of what has been turned up. (THANKS Starbox?!) Both the Mayans and Aztecs used Venus and the Venusian cycle to establish their calendars. Venusian years are grouped in cycles of 5. (Were podster people here to assist those cultures/civilizations with these developments?) Venus is associated with the Sun - she is his twin. (Is there a Max/Sun connection too?) Venus is seen as an intermediary between the Sun and mankind. Venus has a dual nature - by night she is the goddess of love and pleasure and by day she is the goddess of battle. In astrology - the sense of touch is one of Venus's attributes (explains Liz's ability to receive flashes with just a touch - also the importance of hand holding again). Venus is the guardian spirit of horses. Venus is associated with "sensual feelings, instinctive attraction, intoxication (maybe that’s why that kiss sobered Max up – restored the balance), SMILES, seduction, charm, beauty and grace." Plus, Venus and Serena make an awesome doubles combination – tennis anyone! Also, there is one part of Venus – the planet - that is named after a male...the highest point on Venus, standing at 11 km, and the largest mountain range, the Maxwell Montes! (Thanks Nemo, WR, Starstruck, et al.)

Could it be that the 4 squares (pod squad) + plus the fifth star being Liz “complete” the constellation? There were 5 healing stones – Why? The numbers 1, 4 and 5 seem to pop up often – why? We now know that there are 5 planets involved, but … Even the communication was done on 5/14 – those numbers again! Some have found a connection between these numbers to Venus in astronomy and mythology, or could it be 1 for Liz, and 4 for the pod squad? Could Liz be the 5th Element foretold in prophecy (thus, Zan’s search and Ava’s reaction), and that is necessary to the success of the podsters? Or are these numbers just some writer’s favorite apartment number or address? It has been noted that 4 represents “Potential,” while 5 represents “Balance” and “Marriage between Heaven and Earth.” Ummmmm! We also have the evil aliens’ beeper that is a pentagon – 5 sided. The same shape as Atherton’s ceiling. Any connection? The number 2 has also been cropping up a lot lately – 2 as in Max and Liz or as in duplicates?

And what significance does the cave map have to Liz's connection to the podsters? A number of the symbols in the cave “map” have raised some interesting analysis! What do they represent, and is Liz represented somehow - like one of the "dots" in the series of five boxes, one of which is open with the dot outside? This symbol recently arose again in Max’s visions in Wipe Out. Some have tried to identify each of the symbols and draw a correlation between the symbols and the various characters with some fascinating results! We have also begun to analyze the symbols that were “flashed” in the promos for Season 2 – you definitely have to Grace Kel them or you will miss them. Redhawk has done some wonderful screen caps of these for us to analyze! Is Liz the connection that holds the four squares together?

Recently, “Run, Lola, Run” was referred to (Surprise) as the story of Liz’s life. Watch the movie, and see what you think! Do Liz and Max have more than one chance to get things “right” – and ultimately, to be together in peace and harmony? Also, catch the four square symbol on the door with the swirl through it – the same as in the Season 2 promos?

We now know that the "evil" aliens that we are aware of (there could be others) – Skins - came from the podsquad's planet, but are part of a civil war/revolution - therefore, seem to have similar characteristics and powers to the podsters – but it is not clear what all those powers are, except that shapeshifting does not seem to be one of them. They seem to be confined to their husks. But the Skins and Max’s alien predecessor’s kind seem to have been from different races. Many of us think that the podsquad’s people had to have visited Earth before - maybe many times! Could other pods have been planted on Earth at a time separate from the 1947 crash? When would they have had time to construct the elaborate pod chamber with the hidden Granolith? And why put the Dupes in the sewers of NY? Yuck – I agree with Nicko on this one – at least with respect to the sewer aspect! :frown: How did the “mother bear” get those pods from NM to NY without notice? And, why did those podsters end up looking like punks? What happened to their shapeshifter/guardian, and why were Rath and Lonnie so protective of the information? And could some of these earlier visits have some connection to Grandma C or someone else in Liz’s family? Was the ’47 crash caused by the evil aliens, or another ship of the “good” aliens? How long have the evil and good aliens been visiting or aware of Earth? Apparently the Skins originally arrived in 1950, but did they visit at another time? And what have they been up to on these visits? Brody was supposedly healed by aliens who abducted him, and now use his body for possession/visitations. Why? And are there another race of aliens on Earth (a third race of aliens)? And, why in the world pick Earth to hide the podsters – in human form, with human DNA – unless, Earth, and the humanity it represents is essential to the podsters survival? Is that why the “more human” podsters were given possession of the Granolith? Once again, this would tie in Liz’s importance as a human – possibly the “chosen” human to assist in their survival – the 5th Element (I like this theory – can you tell ).

Most of us also think that there are more than one alien “watching” the pod squad, and that the tic-tac popping alien (AKA Tic Tac) (i.e., Hank-killer, one that found them asleep in the desert, and Dr. M impersonator, yet to show up in Season 2) is a different alien, possibly watching out for them (we hope!), than Harding/Nasedo (assuming Harding is Nasedo). And what about the person who burns their picture at the end of Blind Date - another alien or one of the above two? Some wonder if Tess, Doug Shellow, Pierce and/or Deputy Owen might be a shapeshifter, or evil aliens? There is a wonderful observation of the different ways Harding and Tic Tac shapeshift and the different colored light involved! Many feel that Tic Tac is a good alien watching over the podsters, but maybe he is watching over Liz, too! Some wonder if Tic Tac switched the orb in the desert before Liz and Max woke up? If he did, why? The orbs have become a significant focus of discussion – how are they connected to the alignment of the constellations, or to the pod squad, or to the evil aliens? Also – what was with the “visit” during Into The Woods? (Did you notice that FM appears with a lightning strike just like in ITW?) Was it a spaceship that left the marking, or a single alien? As far as the color analysis goes, generally yellow seems to represent – or be present – evil, and blue seems to represent good – though this is not always true. And then, there is always the green cells and occasional glow, and the red that seems to be present throughout Surprise! And where is Tic Tac so far in Season 2?? I can’t believe he and Harding were one and the same.

Harding’s connection to Liz has been pondered often! Why was he so eager to kiss Liz – not just in the car, but also in bus after “saving” her? (Horny alien? ) Why did he save Liz and not Max from the house of mirrors? Could he have been Sheila Hubble’s lover or had some other strong connection to her, with a later connection to Liz? Could he have known Grandma Claudia? Could GC been connected to Sheila Hubble somehow? If Ava knew that Liz had been changed by Max’s healing, shouldn’t Harding have known? AND if he did know, why didn’t he divulge this information? Harding did nothing – we know of – to harm Liz, but MANY are suspicious of his intentions. Is his sole reason for being on Earth to protect the podsquad – an official “worker bee” – and what did he do for all those years?? Some feel he was a bad alien using Tess to infiltrate the pod squad. Why didn’t he give them more information about themselves, Liz, the Dupes and what he had been up to? There are so many questions he could have answered for the podsters before he was wasted! And was the fact that Liz was NOT present at the attempt to heal Harding the reason the healing failed? Maybe Liz is somehow necessary to make the stones work – part of the Balance? Was Harding responsible for Liz’s “great opportunity” in Congresswoman Whitaker’s office? If not, who was the connection there?

Some have noted the reoccurrence of handholding as symbolizing the connection between Max and Liz and the other podsters. Handholding has great significance in the Roswell High books as a form of joining energy, and we believe it does in the show too. The V constellation also looks like the joining of two hands. Also, in The Balance much is made of Max reaching out his hand to pull Michael from the pit, and M/I/M walking away holding hands. We wonder what would have happened in Harvest if Liz had stepped forward to join her power with Max instead of Tess – who did not seem to help at all. Iz held Liz’s hands to help her connect to Max – though it appeared to be slowly Liz’s powers that caused the connection.

Another recent development – the disintegration of Skin when picked up. Why did it not disintegrate when Maria picked it up, but did when the podsters and Liz picked it up? Could be moisture content, but it could be the energy generated by the person holding it. Does Liz generate energy similar to the podsters?

Finally – dates seem to be of interest to those on this thread. So, following is a rundown of dates as I’ve been able to gather them from episodes and factual research. I include them up-front for easy reference, but I would love to add dates of relevance you come across. I have added dates from the Crashdown Timeline and the Whitaker Diaries, but they are questionable, and have no basis in episodes aired, so take them with a grain of salt.
1903 – James Atherton born (according to Crashdown Timeline)
1911 - James Atherton born in TN (according to 285S)
1927 - Buffalo Visitation
1932 – River Dog born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1933 – Grandma Claudia born (Crashdown Timeline)
1942 – Deputy Owen Blackwood born on Mesaliko Indian Reservation (Crashdown Timeline)
1/15/43 – Pentagon (think beeper shape) completed
6/14/1947 - Crash
6/24/1947 - 9 Disklike objects spotted flying near Mt. Rainier in WA
7/4/1947 – Milton claims the crash occurred
7/7/1947 - Farmer Brazel (from Foster Ranch) finally reports debris from Roswell crash to sheriff, who calls Roswell Army Air Field
11/14/1947 - Everet Hubble born
2/4/1950 – Skins arrive on Earth (Harvest)
2/5/1950- 1st day in Skins (Whitaker Diary)
2/13/1950 – Skins’ motor skills improving (Whitaker Diary)
3/8/1950 - Vanessa Whitaker adopts her maiden name Vanessa Crawford (Whitaker Diary)
7/4/1950 – Skins have been looking for the Royal Four for three months (Whitaker Diary)
1950? - Observation of alien held in captivity by FBI ends (Escaped? Died?)
1951 – Phillip Evans and Sheriff James Valenti born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 – Diane Evans (M&I Mom) and Special Agent Stephens born (Crashdown Timeline)
1952 - Atherton involved in Project Blue Book (Air Force project on aliens)
1955 - Jeff Parker born (Crashdown Timeline)
1955 – Atherton publishes “Among Us” (Crashdown Timeline)
10/4/1957 – Whitaker reports that morale is low, 20% of Skins have died, and that they must find the Granolith to go home (Whitaker Diary)
1957 – Nancy Parker (Liz’s Mom) born (Crashdown Timeline)
1/8/1958 – Whitaker states "How?" in her diary (Whitaker Diary)
1958 – Milton Ross born (Crashdown Timeline) [Note – this does not fit with him being old enough to be in the “Ice Cream Parlor Picture” from 1959 – unless he was a VERY mature 1-year-old]
11/16/1959 - Atherton dies (murdered?)
1959 - Milton (Max's Boss) has picture with "alien" shadow next to him outside the Ice Cream Parlor
1961 – Amy De Luca born (Crashdown Timeline)
11/3/1962 - Whitaker writes "Still can't talk about it.” (Whitaker Diary)
1962 - Agent Lewis - first head of Special Unit killed in CO
2/13/1963 - Nicolas was a general in the palace at home (Whitaker Diary)
1964 – Agent Kathleen Topolsky born (Crashdown Timeline)
1967 - Agent Delbianco killed in TN
9/23/1968 - Skins are begin to peel (Whitaker Diary)
3/23/1970 - Nicolas orders skins to "clean up" their personal data to fit in better with humans (Whitaker Diary)
1970 - Sheila Hubble dies (murdered?)
1972 – Silo Murder occurs involving Hubble and Sheriff Valenti Senior
1977 – Phillip and Diane Evans marry (Crashdown Timeline)
5/14/1978 - Nicolas plans the Harvest (Whitaker Diary)
1979 – Jeffery and Nancy Parker marry (Crashdown Timeline)
10/15 or 25/1982 – Isabel’s birthday (Surprise)
3/15/1983 – Max’s birthday (Blood Bothers)
1983 – Kyle, Maria, Ales & Liz born (Crashdown Timeline)
10/11/1984 - Nicolas tells Whitaker to be a senator (Whitaker Diary)
1984 – Jeff Parker opens up the Crashdown Café (Crashdown Timeline) [What happens to Parker’s – the predecessor to the Crashdown? - Z]
1987 – Liz wears the “Cupcake Dress” to school in kindergarten (Crashdown Timeline) [Would make Liz an awfully YOUNG kindergartener – maybe they start early in NM?? - Z]
1989 - Pod Squad come out of the cave (look like 6-year-olds)
1989 – Kyle’s mom, Jim Valenti’s wife leaves (Wipeout)
1991 – Max sees Liz for first time in 3rd grade (Crashdown Timeline) [Again, this would be off based on their timeline – Liz would be in 4th grade. I think Liz started K in 1988, and Max saw her for the first time the following year – 1989 - in 1st grade after he gets off the bus, BUT they did not officially get to Know each other until 3rd grade – Z]
1991 – UFO Museum founded (Crashdown Timeline)
1991 - 92? - Liz and Max "meet" in the 3rd grade for the first time (but may have been in the same school before this, just didn't meet.)
1992 - Max and Isabel "find" Michael again
1992 – Alex meets Liz in 4th grade, but they do not become close friends until the 5th grade (Crashdown Timeline)
1993 – Brody abducted by aliens
1993 – Maria’s Dad leaves
5/29/1994 - Vanessa Crawford marries John Whitaker, Congressman from New Mexico (Whitaker Diary)
5/16/1996 - John Whitaker dies in "tragic" plane crash (Whitaker Diary)
1997 – Brody buys an alien beeper
1999 - Agent Daniel Summers killed
5/5/1999 – Whitaker writes about dating Pierce (Whitaker Diary)
9/17, 18 or19(?)/1999 - Max saves Liz - and Roswell is Born!!
9/27/1999 – The Morning After
Fall 1999 – Max and Liz are both 16-year-olds
10/19/1999 – Leaving Normal – Grandma Claudia visits
11/11/1999 – Scooby Gang drives back from Atherton’s
12/2/1999 – Heatwave hits Roswell!
2/14/2000 – Liz goes on her Blind Date with Doug Shellow
2/21(?)/2000 – Orb found by Max and Liz
4/18/2000 - Daniel Pierce leaves for Roswell (Whitaker Diary)
5/14/2000, 4:33 pm – Pod Squad set off the communicators – sending a pulse detected by other aliens
Fall 2000 – Scooby Gang begins 12th grade
9/25/2000 – Congressional hearing closes down FBI Special Unit (S&B)
9/29/2000 - Whitaker decides to set up her Roswell office, Pierce doesn't return her calls (Whitaker Diary)
10/6/2000 - Whitaker's office is set up, and has employed Liz Parker. Nicolas reports deserters from Copper Summit. (Whitaker Diary)
10/7/2000 - Whitaker reports Pierce is "the shapeshifter," and that since he went to Max Evans, Evans must be one of the hybrids. Also wonders if Iz is really Vilandra: It is possible the Queen could have reversed Vilandra's and the Bride's roles to throw them off track. Realizes Liz's importance to the hybrids and tapes her calls. Killed the shapeshifter. (Whitaker Diary)
10/15 or 25/2000 – Isabel celebrates her 18th birthday
10/25 or 11/25 – Whitaker was supposed to report to Skins, but doesn’t (Harvest) [The dates in Surprise, TEOTW & Harvest are ALL screwed up – someone should e-mail a copy of this timeline to the writers! Z]
10/27(?) or 11/3/2000 – Future Max visits, causing Liz to fake sleeping with Kyle, pushing Max to accept Tess (thus, changing forever the course of history)
11/23/2000 – Max goes to the Summit; calls Iz with details of offer
Fall 2000 – Harvest of Skins due or they will die (Harvest)
12/7/2000 – Grant’s ?? birthday

I know I have NOT covered everything (there’re an amazing number of clues to be found!), but that would be impossible and I’d never do all the wonderful theories justice! There is lots of speculation about other characters revolving around Liz, and why they are important to the discussion. Some have wondered why Max and Agent Stevens had the same address – just an inside joke or more? Tangents are welcome on this Thread as long as they ultimately lead back to Liz! I'm trying to “sum” up the core issues here - Liz's importance and connection to the podsquad – Max in particular! I hope others will help fill in some of the gaps, but this is my attempt to continue the wonderful input, and make this thread accessible. Lots to think about!! So – theorize away!!! All theories on "Liz’s Importance to the Alien Mythology" are welcome. OH, BTW (I always have to add this – if anyone from THE WB reads this – WE ALL AGREE THAT THE LIZ/MAX CONNECTION IS CRITICAL TO THE SHOW, AND THAT TOGETHER MAX AND LIZ MAKE AN INCREDIBLE FORCE TO BE RECKONED WITH!!

A couple of general “rules” – NO SPOILERS, but anything “aired” is subject to discussion. Pictures are welcome, as is deleted dialog from posted scripts of shows that have been aired and commentary by writers/producers.

Zero
I Shall Believe!!

glad to see another thread is posted!

I've read posts on other threads, and nothing against them, but I am so glad that I found such a great gathering of "deap thinkers"

I love reading everyones theories!!

Keep em coming!!

There's been something I've been wanting to post since this afternoon, but have been so busy I didn't really get a chance until tonight.

I'm SURE this must have been brought up before considering y'all have been discussing *the dragon* on Liz's window for some time. When I see that particular dragon on Liz's window... all I can think of is a Chinese dragon, hence I think of "year of the dragon" in Chinese Astrology. Since I’m sure this has been brought up before, I’m not entirely certain why I’m bringing it up now, I’m still a bit giddy from MITC I suppose! That and I haven’t been keeping up with some of the recent past threads as well as I probably should have… someone probably brought up all this Year of the Dragon stuff already! Anyway, no intention of plagerizing if this HAS been brought up.

We are currently in the "year of the dragon" (if y’all are either Chinese, know Chinese people or simply love Szechuan and about anything Sweet & Sour like I do… you probably already knew this, besides it possibly being previously posted). I stumbled upon a website which has some very interesting information in concerns of "the dragon" and "Year of the dragon" in comparison to our Liz.

Here are some tidbits that really stuck out to me (anyone out there who is much more knowledged to Chinese astrology and mysticism please chime in any time!):

~In the Chinese Horoscope, "The Dragon" is in the FIFTH ranking order.

~"The Dragon's" corresponding western sign is ARIES (bells went off with that one).

~”The Dragon’s” ruling planet is VENUS (serious bells here).

Here's a quote from the *Dragon* portion of the website, not sure who it's from, but it seems to fit with some/much of our Liz speculating...

I am the unquenchable Fire,
The center of all energy,
The stout heroic heart.
I am truth and light,
I hold power and glory in my sway.
My presence
Disperses dark clouds
To tame the Fates.

I am the Dragon.

However, Liz herself (as well as Alex, Maria & Kyle) - if her birthdate is indeed in 1983 - was born in Year of the Boar [or Pig].

Here's the quote from the Year of the Boar...

Of all God's Children
I have the purest heart.
With innocence and faith,
I walk in Love's protective light.
By giving of myself freely
I am richer and twice blest.
Bonded to all mankind by
common fellowship,
My goodwill is universal
And knows no bounds.

I am the Boar.

I got the above info from this website: http://extra.newsguy.com/~twilight/ch.htm

Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her (unless dragons have been popping up on other characters’ windows?). One could possibly speculate, since this is the year Liz has seemingly discovered she has “powers”, then one might say she was “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon… as the Dragon? "The tamer of fates" and "center of all energy"? While still retaining the characteristics of “the boar”? “The purest heart”, “walks in Love’s protective light” and “bonded to all mankind”?

You can plainly see the dragon in Liz’s window in this screencap from the DDD from MITC (I don’t know if someone has a better cap of the dragon?):

Liz is the dragon?
Liz is Venus?

Dragon image is from this website: http://www.geocities.com/asian_dragon_picture_gallery/Menu.html , BD image is from Crashdown

Melodious

I really like the concept of this thread...hmmm I've been thinking about the whole idea about how Liz and Max are always referred to as "soul mates". It's interesting because in terms of reincarnation, I've read that there is a distinct difference between what is considered a "soul mate" or "twin soul".
Alrighty, here I go with my theory.
Soul mates are individuals who are intended to play a significant role in your life. They are individuals whose presence changes your life for better or worse. Although associated with romance, soul mates are not entirely life long partners. I think the whole romantic notion of believing that another individual could be your destined "mate" is an extension of popular sentiment. This is NOT to say that Max and Liz are destined to be apart. I think in consideration to what was started in this thread about Max and Liz being each other's half follows more closely along the lines of "twin souls", which I think is a stronger and more powerful role.
I believe that twin souls are individuals whose spirits are split in half prior to arrival upon Earth, and manifest in two separate bodies. They can be considered each other's "ying and yang". They balance each other because each possess aspects of their personalities and being which are complimentary. Example, two people who share twin souls may find that although they both are wonderful musicians one is better in the technical skills (better in playing but lacks emotion), and the other performs more expressively (more emotion but not as proficient in skills). I hope that makes sense. Can you tell I'm a musician?
Anyway, I'll return back to the topic of Liz and Max. I believe they are twin souls because they are so closely entwine in terms of their energy and teamwork. In the first season, it is Liz who really attempts to collaborate teamwork effort between Maria, and the rest of the Pod Squad. Liz is really effective in giving Max a sense of security and strength in terms of advice. They really are just in tuned with each other. This is seen in Blind Date when makes reveals that he doesn't know how to control himself around Liz. Max seems to be more lost without Liz, Iz, and Michael. Well the first season revealed what happens to Liz at least physically when she is without Max But seriously, she seems to lose a lot more focus. They are just more in tuned and effective when in each other's presence.

Oh, and I wanted to respond to what Willow42 had to say about the theory revolving around Lillith, Ava, Eve, etc.
Well, to my knowledge, we all just know that Zan/Max made bad decisions while back in his home planet. Well, what I don't understand is simply this: Who were his advisors?
It's rare for a ruler to do his work without a set of people to advise him. I'm wondering how much effect his "bride" Tess had upon him? If we were to follow the whole theory about Adam and Eve we would find some interesting similarities. Although Eve wasn't necessarily evil, she had a strong influence upon him that resulted in their exile from the Garden of Eden. Sooo...let me put this in relation to Tess/Ava and Max/Zan.
Is it possible that as his "young bride" Tess somehow was elemental in influencing Zan's decisions? Did their home planet result in war and suffering because Tess possibly influenced Zan to make the wrong decision? I mean history and literature seem to capture many women in a position of power in terms of their influence upon men. In Shakespeare it was Lady MacBeth, and in Ancient Egypt it was Antony and Cleopatra.
These women were able to infiltrate and change the coarse of their homelands/countries histories.
Is his "young bride" Tess an exception?

OR...There could be a whole other reason entirely.

Another possibility is that Liz perhaps represents Eve in the sense that she is the other half of Adam, who in this case is Max/Zan. Tess could be the snake, an advisor? It's possible...it would explain why Tess came along with the others.
Let's see:
Michael: Officer in Command
Isabel: Sister/Vilandra
Tess: Advisor, councelor...etc.
Liz: Young Bride
Max: Leader.

There is a lot of issues revolving about the past repeating itself...but what remains unspoken is the fact that despite the reoccurrence of past events, there are certain actions and individuals who change. According to karma each life we live, depending upon how good/bad we were before dying, has an effect upon who we wind up being in the future. Is it possible that the "young bride" that died upon Max's home planet was Liz? Also, the fact that Max saved Liz from dying at the Crashdown ultimately changed their destinies. The reason I mention this is because in previous chats/threads there is mention that the "young bride" dies. In terms of the others in the Pod Squad, I don't think it's fair to assume that because they are aliens that their feelings are completely different. If Vilandra was willing to sacrifice her family for a great love express the fact that their emotions are not completely different from humans? Perhaps Earth is a place that is similar to their home planet in terms of their characteristics and emotions...just a thought.
These are my ideas, and maybe it'll give you all something to think about in between new episodes.
I just hope that
finally realize how important they are to each other and the way they function

Not sure if I'll ever like the "enhanced" Liz. Not only does this change who Liz is, it changes the entire Roswell paradigm, one that was just fine the way it was. I am hoping that Liz has limits to what she can do.

--On the other hand, the politics is really taking off.

My post on the other thread was bout how in the begining of MITC when Max and Tess are in the elevator of the Empire State Building the floor they stop on is 86 8+6=14 There it is again that number grouping of 1+4.4 shown and 1 hidden

Melodious, LOVED your thoughts on the dragon. I definitely think you're on to something here.

Afew (yeah right - who am I kidding) comments:

1) The more I have thought about it - the more I am convinced you are DEAD RIGHT Steph.
That was NOT TESS at the end of MITC (or at least it was an altered Tess).
If Rath and Lonnie had just tried (unsuccesfully) to kill Max - why would they take Tess, attempt to mindrape her, then just happen to leave her a few moments later for Max to scoop up and take home???? Not just that - but leave her where they know max is sure to find her??? (I mean - NYC is a BIG city - would not have been hard to dump her someplace other than the TWO places Max had been)
Also - the exchange between Lonnie and Nikolas is still haunting me - her assertion that Niko better "COME TO HER SIDE" because she had "CARDS SHE HAD NOT BEGUN TO SHOW".
Does Lonnie really want to be with Khivar or does she want to take over for herself???

About Ava and Liz as the "choosen one".
As much as we initially trust her - she now has LEFT TOWN and is the ONLY one who knows the TRUTH about Liz (Trojan Horse/Choosen One). This has the potential to turn her into either a powerful ally or a powerful enemy. It also gives her the ultimate "CARD" to play against Lonnie, or Nikolas, or anyone else she has a vendetta against.
Remember when she tells Liz she has powers, she says "its too complicated to explain now" - or something like that. I am totally convinced there is a BIG something "more" to it. Liz is the CHOOSEN ONE!!!!

On the dragons - I LOVE the stuff about the year of the dragon. I posted this s few threads back but I am going to repost it because I just love it:

From mythology:
"The tale of Lludd and Llewelys describes the struggle between the red dragon and the white dragon. In the end, both dragons, made drunk with mead, were buried in the centre of the island of Britian, in a stone coffin.
So long as they remain UNDISCOVERED the island will suffer no invasion.
The coffined dragons are symbols of HIDDEN and chained POWERS, the two faces of a veiled being.
The burial together of both dragons signifies that their FATES have become INTERFUSED. Anger may have calmed, but the dragons could RISE TOGETHER. They remain a threat, a potential force ready to launch itself at any new invader.

Now here is a thought - and it fits in with Romeo and Juliet.
What if LIZ is somehow connected to Khivar - or an ancient alien race in opposition to
Max. She could be his equivalent in terms of power/mythical "status" among the people.
BUT - instead she has fallen in LOVE with Max. Instead of defeating Max - her fate and his has been sealed and INTERTWINED. The two of them will now bring harmony and balance. This reminds me of Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe - where the white witch kills Aslan - but then he rises again because there was a DEEPER Prophecy that she had not read.
This would explain the shooters, and also why
Evil max saved LIZ from the funhouse. It also explains Ava's "awe" of Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Now here is a thought - and it fits in with Romeo and Juliet.
What if LIZ is somehow connected to Khivar - or an ancient alien race in opposition to
Max. She could be his equivalent in terms of power/mythical "status" among the people.
BUT - instead she has fallen in LOVE with Max. Instead of defeating Max - her fate and his has been sealed and INTERTWINED. The two of them will now bring harmony and balance. This reminds me of Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe - where the white witch kills Aslan - but then he rises again because there was a DEEPER Prophecy that she had not read.
This would explain the shooters, and also why
Evil max saved LIZ from the funhouse. It also explains Ava's "awe" of Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Wow.That gives me chills.

We saw that one of the pods was leaking, (maybe this was because of some US Gov. tampering, or damage caused during the escape) and I think that this damaged pod actually belonged with the true royal 4 (not the rejects of NY) and this pod contained none other than Ava.
But possiblely another alien (NOT Nasedo)was affraid to send the 4 rejects to NY, in fear that Ava might not make it, or be damaged, weakening the power of the Royal 4. So perhalps he sent the 3 to NY, but held onto Tess for insurance. Then later, Nasedo took Ava to NY. Either by mistake, or on purpose, since Tess may have been stronger/healthier/ less human, which would've appealed to Nasedo more.

Anyway, I would love to hear what you all think!!

I LOVE it! I didn't even notice the lack of the fourth pod. Have we seen how many pods are in the Pod Chamber? Just four right? So, do you think that Ava came from the Pod Chamber and T was stashed somewhere with Nacedo?

OK ok.. my mind's racing now.. have we seen Max and Ava interact? I hate being at work when I have these thoughts. This theory would explain the connection we saw with Liz and Ava (Liz having something to do with the leaking goo) AND would explain why I like Ava SO much more than T !!!

quote:Originally posted by dreamergirl68:
Anyone with a thought about why Max didn't ask Liz about her new found powers? I would think it would suprise him to find she could dream walk to NY.

Just wondering?

I wondered the same thing, then again.. I've come to grow and love the unanswered questions of Roswell, Why hasn't anyone read CW's files?, Why hasn't anyone drilled T on what SHE remembers aboutPlanet Twilo?, Why hasn't anyone asked T about her supposed-kidnapping by CW and the phone call to Grant?, Where's Grant?, Why didn't Liz ask Ava about this supposed change thing?, Why didn't Max ask Liz about this supposed change thing?

Blah blah blah...

I think Loni and Rath left Tess there because they couldn't get the information they wanted from her and they knew Max would come and get her. Even though they tricked Zan into killing him, I am sure they know that Max has the most powers out of all of them. He is the king!

I don't think anyone realizes how important Liz is. It will be revealed slowly.

No doubt in my mind that it's NOT T that's been brought back to Roswell. I also have no doubt that it will be Liz to discover this imposter!

So.. either it'll be:
1) T didn't get kidnapped (I don't really think this one, but.. ya never know) and really IS evil and she'll blame whatever bad stuffs she's about to do on Rath and Lonnie even though she's in on it (and of course, our Pod Squad will proabably fall for it), which will continue to lead (most of) us on in the assumption that T is not evil...

OR..

2) Rath and Lonnie really DID take/kill/hide T (which is what I believe) and the bad stuff that's about to happen won't be her, per say, but when she returns (and in my opinion, she'll have known about what happened and STILL be evil) everyone will trust her and she'll cause even MORE damage!!!

Of course.. that's just my opinion. I have a feeling one of Liz's powers will prevail in this treachery though!!

Although at first I thought bringing in Ava was kind of a cheap way for the writers to be able to rewrite Tess, now Tess is still bothering me so much (or at least whoever, Lonnie?, is masquerading as Tess) I'm ready to get her out of there! Bring back Ava! (Of course if the next episode shows Tess back at the granolith with no cohorts appearing, that will kind of ruin my Tess isn't Tess theory.)

Chica

BTW, nice intro, Zero.

Great introduction as always!! You have done an excellent job of summing up the many wonderful ideas on this thread. I have been lurking on this thread since thread #1 and have become just as addicted to it as I have Roswell itself.

OK this has been something I have been kicking around in my mind and I wanted to know what you guys thought. Remember when Max, Tess, Rath, and Lonnie were talking about why the leaders use temps to attend the summit and Tess said why don’t they come themselves. Lonnie said something that got my mind spinning when she said they wouldn’t come back here in person unless it was very important. So if the other leaders have been here before I would also assume that Zan would have come to Earth before.

What about, like many have suggested before, that when Max/Zan’s predecessor was here on earth before he met and fell in love with one of Liz’s ancestors, maybe GC. After his father’s (untimely?) death, Zan was sent for to assume his place on the throne in planet Twilo. Of course he didn’t want to leave GC so he promised he would be back. He left and tried to change his planet to reflect the democracy that he learned on Earth. Maybe Planet Twilo was under a lord-serf or master-slave system. But because of what he saw and experienced on Earth he tried to change it to a more democratic system. When the war broke out he came up with the plan to clone himself and his trusted advisors and send them to earth in hopes that later that they could return and free his people from whatever oppression that they are under.

Now here is my question. We know that the aliens can possess temps here on earth so did Zan do that so he could still visit GC? As GC said “If it isn’t complicated, then he probably isn’t a soul mate.” Well that seems pretty complicated to me. Maybe that is why Max recognized Liz when he got off the bus she had GC “essence signature”. I know this is far fetched, but I just wanted to throw it out and see what happened or maybe it’s my dreamer heart overtaking my brain.

Beth

StarBox, you forgot to mention that the Dragon is also Defender of a Young Woman's Virtue (virginity) in Chinese Mythology. And the Archangel George defending the young maiden's life against the dragon, in Saxon legends, can only mean the same. Whether he likes it or not, I think Max is going to be the biggest protector of Liz' virtue (although it may drive him nuts and be against everything his 17-year old body wants), specially after he finds out about Future Max. Let's not forget he has graduated from the terrace to the bedroom now! And no, the bed is not the next step in this saga!

Mel and Starbox - great info on dragons!! I saved it only a file so that I can incorporate it into the next intro. I guess I'm shooting for 10 Word pages!

BTW - If you have any dates you come across while watching old episodes, please PM me with them, and I will include them in the timeline which has taken on a life of its own!

Also - on the last thread - while I was on vacation - there was a discussio about how Liz couldn't have given Max the knife (that he returns) for Christmas. I know Heatwave was supposed to be before Christmas, but then they break up in The Balance, but I'm not sure when that occured. Can someone help me with this? I know it is not significant, but stuff like this tends to bug me. Thanks!

I still think Tess is Tess - but in true Roswellian fashion, we were left with more questions than answers!! I like the discussion about surrounded by bad advisors Max/Zan made bad decisions. It is hard to make good decisions surrounded by "Yes" men or women - which Tess seems to be. Nick keeps making vailed references to Tess, and how Max/Zan surrounded himself with bad advisors - that some of it has to ring true. I hope we do get more info - through flashbacks like was recently done on Buffy/Angel - about how Twilo society is set up and how all the podsters came to their original death there. I would be fascinating!!

Have a great Wednesday/Hump Day! It is cold and raining in the Pac. NW!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

What about, like many have suggested before, that when Max/Zan’s predecessor was here on earth before he met and fell in love with one of Liz’s ancestors, maybe GC. After his father’s (untimely?) death, Zan was sent for to assume his place on the throne in planet Twilo. Of course he didn’t want to leave GC so he promised he would be back. He left and tried to change his planet to reflect the democracy that he learned on Earth. Maybe Planet Twilo was under a lord-serf or master-slave system. But because of what he saw and experienced on Earth he tried to change it to a more democratic system. When the war broke out he came up with the plan to clone himself and his trusted advisors and send them to earth in hopes that later that they could return and free his people from whatever oppression that they are under.

Now here is my question. We know that the aliens can possess temps here on earth so did Zan do that so he could still visit GC? As GC said “If it isn’t complicated, then he probably isn’t a soul mate.” Well that seems pretty complicated to me. Maybe that is why Max recognized Liz when he got off the bus she had GC “essence signature”. I know this is far fetched, but I just wanted to throw it out and see what happened or maybe it’s my dreamer heart overtaking my brain. Beth

I like it! It reminds me of when I was in college - many moons ago - and all the foreign students I got to know. Many were here to learn what they could before going back to their homeland to help instill some of those learned principals there. I have often said that I can't believe that Earth (in Roswellian terms) was not visited before and possibly colonized prior to the pods being sent. There are too many clues supporting past visitations.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Liz knew exactly which booth he was sitting in on that fateful day, too. Which meant she had been paying attention to him, subconscious or no.

Thanks for the info, Zero.

BTW, has anyone thought that Brody's first abduction might have been a "doin' the Linda Blair" thing, too? In which case, could that tie in to our story somehow?

I like this idea; it got me thinking. I was a little surprised by Tess's "world at your feet" line in MITC. That seemed unusually power-hungry to me. I was even more surprised when Max replied, "I'm the king of the world." I know it was a joke, but I'm wondering if both of those lines were subconscious references to their past. I think that would tie in with your suggestion. Maybe Tess's past self enjoyed having all that power, whereas Max's predecessor wanted to change things based on what he saw here (probably making his comment sarcastic).

It's been mentioned that Isabel was a traitor, and that some of the Skins attempted to make Michael king. But it's never been made clear whether Tess betrayed Max in any way. Maybe she saw that he wanted to give up at least some of his power to make things more democratic, as suggested by allie0875, and she decided to do something to prevent that. What do you think?

Thanks for the info, Zero.

BTW, has anyone thought that Brody's first abduction might have been a "doin' the Linda Blair" thing, too? In which case, could that tie in to our story somehow?

I am sure that Brodie's "doing the Linda Blair" will be tied in later. It is the same year Maria's dad leaves. Could be significant!

It seems apparent that these aliens from the other worlds have "possessed" a ton of humans for their purposes. That means that earth is more involved than we have seen.

I'm just trying to piece a few clues together. Like if the pods arrived in '47 then which (if not all) of the royal 4 had died by then?

and when Zan could've come to earth before, to meet one of Liz's ancestors?

Anyway, I just want to see if I can gather more evidence to either support or dismiss some of the theories.

Ok, my initial reaction to that... and this is probably going to sound really crazy (I apologize if it's been brought up already, although I'm guilty of bringing up something similar in the past)... but since this IS the episode we were just introduced to the fact aliens from different worlds can somehow possess human hosts. I thought, "Yeah, Tess doesn't *remember* what they did to her because the alien whose been invading HER body stopped Lonnie, Rath and/or Nikolas from harming her/it." Granted, the podsters are not ALL human, but I feel they're human enough possibly for this to work. Whose the alien that's possibly taking over Tess' body?? I say it might just be Khivar himself. Nikolas is the ONLY ONE who knows this, which is why Nik was spared in WO and all the rest of the Skins were killed (they were all done for anyway).

I also feel it was possibly Khivar's power that fried all those Skins in WIPE OUT. Which is why Tess doesn't really remember what she did or how she did it. It seems from Whitaker's diary that Nikolas is capable of slaughtering his own people, and Nikolas is seemingly only a General. If this is the behavior of the General under the (new) King... then what sort of atrocities is the King himself capable of? Not that they necessarily could be deemed as "atrocities"... all the Skins were as good as dead anyway, possibly with the exception of Nikolas. Khivar probably felt he was being merciful or something.

Nik possibly made a reference to this in MITC, claiming Tess (but eluding to Khivar) as "genocidal"... Nik and Khivar possibly sharing a little laugh afterwards about it all. "Stupid Royal Four, they have NO idea that we ARE truly 'among them'."

However, why doesn't Khivar just stay in Tess' body permanently until she wanders into the Granilith room one day?? Well according to one of the alien council... alien occupance in the human bodies takes up too much energy. Hence Khivar can only be in Tess' body for very short times. Enough time to mess w/ the podsters heads, throw a firewall at his own people or fend off Lonnie and Rath before killing/damaging Tess' body.

Crazy yes, but I still think this has a rather frightening possibilty of being true.

Khivar is waiting for that opportune (spontaneous?) moment he jumps into Tess and finds himself staring straight at the Granilith, but also will probably still take advantage of his *covert* position to destroy the rest of the Royals. So Khivar might indeed already know where the Granilith is, but is concocting some elaborate plan with Nikolas to *deface* the Royals preferably in front of all Twilo. So they stop seemingly idolizing these dead Royals and only idolize Khivar? Kind of like the display the Romans did with Jesus Christ... publicly humiliating and executing him in an attempt to disway his followers.

quote:From mythology:
"The tale of Lludd and Llewelys describes the struggle between the red dragon and the white dragon...

Very intriguing, I'm loving this entire discussion on Dragons.

quote:This would explain the shooters, and also why Evil max saved LIZ from the funhouse. It also explains Ava's "awe" of Liz.

Question: Do any of you think Edsedo KNEW Liz was changed?? Arguably, Ava KNEW because of knowledge she had retained from *the past life*... if Edsedo is indeed the Royal Four protector, then he was knowledged of the past life, was he not?? I'd think he would have known Liz was changed just as Ava seemingly knew it. Unless Ava was part of something which she (and possibly Zan) only knew which is how she deduced --seemingly w/out a doubt-- Liz was "changed" by Max. Somehow I find this unlikely. I think if Ava knew Liz was changed, Nasedo MUST HAVE KNOWN TOO. Yet why didn't he say anything?? Just being Edsedo or did he have OTHER motives in mind?? Could Edsedo have also possibly been working for Khivar to a certain extent?

Melodious

See? And all it did for me is pop a picture of Leonardo Dicaprio in my head! (ya know.. Titanic.. he's at the front.. I'm King of the world?? )

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
Ok, my initial reaction to that... and this is probably going to sound really crazy (I apologize if it's been brought up already, although I'm guilty of bringing up something similar in the past)... but since this IS the episode we were just introduced to the fact aliens from different worlds can somehow possess human hosts. I thought, "Yeah, Tess doesn't *remember* what they did to her because the alien whose been invading HER body stopped Lonnie, Rath and/or Nikolas from harming her/it." Granted, the podsters are not ALL human, but I feel they're human enough possibly for this to work. Whose the alien that's possibly taking over Tess' body?? I say it might just be Khivar himself. Nikolas is the ONLY ONE who knows this, which is why Nik was spared in WO and all the rest of the Skins were killed (they were all done for anyway).

Wow.. didn't see that at all, but VERY interesting thought! I DO think that Khivar has to find a way to "appear" in Roswell - be it through T or Nick or Grant or something!

I don't think Kyle will exhibit powers, clues to this being the aforementioned lack of flashes, etc., etc. I agree that Liz, on a basic genetic level, remains human, but rather a 'superior', or 'advanced' human. Nasedo reveals to Michael in Destiny that the Pod Squad's powers are all essentially human - abilities that all humans will one day be capable of, after thousands of years of evolution, when the full potential of the human mind has finally been tapped into. Max's healing probably advanced Liz's mind thus far in the evolutionary scale, giving her her abilities. Exactly how, or why, is what we all want to know, and what the writers should have provided at least some clue to in MITC.

Ava's comment to Liz that Zan never seemed to feel for her what she felt for him, that 'it was like he was always waiting for someone to walk into his life', was a deliberate implication on Ron Moore's part about Liz's significance in the Max-Liz-Tess triangle. There was no reason for Ava and Zan to be apart, they were never separated from one another - yet Zan was never able to connect to Ava. I'm beginning to think there's some substance to the whole "Liz and Max were together in a former life" theorem -the one I'm referring to being that Liz, in a past incarnation, had a relationship with the human Max's human DNA was taken from. Or perhaps the theory that the original Zan, upon a visit to Earth, fell in love with a past incarnation of Liz, which would actually explain quite a bit - the abnormal intensity of Max's immediate attraction to Liz among other things (not exactly standard for a third-grader, alien origin or not). Either way, the writers are going to have to explain why neither Max nor Zan have any connection to their respective intended alien 'brides', Tess and Ava. If Zan hadn't been killed (we don't know for certain that he is dead, for that matter) seeing his reaction to Liz might have provided some insight on this.

Zero - now that I think of it, Earth had to have been researched, visited, etc. by the Pod Squad's predecessors - why would you send your only hope for the future to a planet you knew nothing about? The 'Royal Four' are too important for such a risk.

The Max and Liz 4Ever Pocket knife scene is bothering me as well, for the same reason - Max and Liz weren't together last Christmas.

Question - if the Pod Squad's abilities are all those that humans will one day possess, and Max's healing advanced Liz, in evolutionary terms, to 'superior' status, shouldn't she then be able to demonstrate more of the powers of the Pod Squad? Manipulation of molecular structure, and such.

Everyone has been discussing Dragons. i'm pretty dense when it comes to allusions and symbolism. However, I was just at the book story and say Dictionary of Allusions and I looked up dragions. (Sorry if this is a repeat)

They had sowing dragons teeth which comes from greek mythology. Some guy named C??? killed a dragon. The goddess Athena took half of the dragon's teeth and told C??? to plant the other half of the teeth. The teeth grew into warriors which battled each other until only 5 remained. Those 5 warriors then help C??? found the city of Thebes.

Athena sowed the other teeth which also grew into 5 (I think) warriors that Jason (of Golden Fleece fame)had to fight in his quest for the Golden Fleece.

I thought it was very interesting. The dragon shows up on Liz's window. I think it was showing its teeth. Sowing teeth refers to 5 warriors who helped found a city. I thought there were a number of things we could take from that.

The podsters are trying to found a new life for themselves and the 5 planets. Max could be C??? and the 5 warriors could be Tess, Isabel, Lis, Michael and Kyle. (If saving Liz changed her it's safe to think the same might happen to Kyle. It could also explain his personality change.)

Another idea is there are 5 warring planets. It appeared from the Summit that all but 1 were against Max. The 5 planets could represent the 5 warriors that Max as Jason needs to kill in his quest. The 5 warriors in this case would be Kavar, Nicolas, and the 3 planet representatives. I exclude Brody because I think he will become an advisor to Max.

If this has been brought up before, please be kind. Thank you.

I don't completely by into the "Liz is part alien" theory, especially in light of what Eva told her about changing. But what if Liz was a mistake, too? That is, she was another alien, Max's lover in a past life (as has been suggested), and she was also sent to Earth. Somehow, there was a screw-up similar to what supposedly happened with the Pod Squad, and they made her too human. Her powers were there, just as with the others, but they remained untapped. When Max healed her, maybe that flipped the switch so she could access those powers again--it didn't give her anything new, instead, it awakened what was in her already.

Thoughts?

That's interesting. I hadn't thought about Kyle's personality change!

Or maybe take over Alex's body? The human whose been in Ros the least this season (it's always the ones you least suspect) and the one Isabel trusts more than any of them. This would be a rather sadistic shout-out to the Stargazers, but wouldn't it be interesting for them to start having some *strange* (probably sexually charged) scenes between Alex/Iz all of the sudden. Iz is suddenly showing a *particular* attraction to Alex which she never showed before... she (and it's built up that the audience as well) just explains it as Alex *finally* breaking down her walls, but in actuality it's because Alex is Khivar? Iz is succumbing to her Vilandra side and not even realizing it.

How could they *possibly* discover Alex is Khivar? Through Maria via her relationship with Brody.... possibly post MITC Max tells Maria the nature of Brody's *abductions*. So Maria might get to know Brody well enough to possibly recognize when Brody is starting to show signs of being *off*. Since Maria knows Alex so well and would possibly have the experience to *see* that something was not only wrong with Alex in general but that what's happening to him is similar to Brody... Maria will stumble on Alex not being Alex.

I could also see this "Which one in Roswell is NOT what they appear to be??" storyline possibly being one used towards the season finale. Someone will betray them, but this someone doesn't even KNOW they're (or will be) the betrayer? Sounds exciting to me A storyline which was even eluded to in the promos for the season premiere... granted, the *one with the secret* they were actually referencing in those particular promos has probably already been discovered, but the idea is still in my head. Could be anyone.

Melodious

Did anyone else notice how odd it was that when Max was saved by *Liz*, and that window washer thing fell, it was like he had been in a trance. Lonnie, Tess, & Rath just vanished.

What if the reason Tess didn't seem to put up a fight against Rath was because she was busy concentraiting on making an image of Liz appear accross the streat. And like with Pierce, the image lasted minutes after they had left the scene.

But this theory would mean that the writers are just teasing us about Liz being *changed*, or just dropping hints about what could be coming.

(But I for one hope I am wrong, I want Liz to a few unique powers)

Did anyone else notice how odd it was that when Max was saved by *Liz*, and that window washer thing fell, it was like he had been in a trance. Lonnie, Tess, & Rath just vanished.

What if the reason Tess didn't seem to put up a fight against Rath was because she was busy concentraiting on making an image of Liz appear accross the streat. And like with Pierce, the image lasted minutes after they had left the scene.

But this theory would mean that the writers are just teasing us about Liz being *changed*, or just dropping hints about what could be coming.

(But I for one hope I am wrong, I want Liz to a few unique powers)

Well - Tess has to close her eyes and concentrate to mindwarp someone - also I seriously doubt that she would ever choose to give Max a vision of Liz. Isabel or Michael maybe - but not Liz.
I think that they were very careful to show that it was actually LIZ with the powers (hence Isabels open eyes)
Also - afterwards - Liz is looking for an outward "change" because she can FEEL the change INSIDE. Liz saw herself in NYC - you can tell that in the last scene where she is talking to Max - I dont think there is any doubt she has powers. Now we know why TPTB were so "hush, hush, secret, secret" about this episode.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

quote:Originally posted by shapeshifter:
To bed in a moment, but I was really impressed with the writers for showing Liz and Maria rejoicing in their virginity.
shapeshifter & Alexis - I just loved that part too. Two girls celebrating their virginity. It's nice to see writers protraying something different than what is on so many other shows. (Not that I didn't like SH, )

Melodious, Starbox, & bluecornmoon - I enjoyed your posts on the dragon. I think they pasted that dragon there for a reason. It wasn't there during the first season, was it? So as the writers further develop the story arc and the characters themselves, I'm sure they discuss all of this with the set designers.

Some other thoughts I had last night before going to bed:
The shapeshifters / protectors:
So didn't TicTac show up about the time the V-constellation came into alignment - Blind Date/Independence Day/sexual Healing. So, is he the SS, the "protector" of the dupes? Did he realize that the real King was going to need all the help he could get, so he abandons his proteges in NY and heads to NM to be of service to the real King. This could explain why Lonnie and Rath didn't want to talk about him. They wanted the podsquad to think that they were the "real" set of the Royal Four, eventhough their SSer had told them otherwise and left to help the real Royal Four. Okay, so now the question is... where is he? ...grrr...

Did Edsedo realize who Liz was? Shouldn't he have known she is changed if Ava did? This could explain why he rescues Liz in the hall of mirrors in MttM. Why didn't he say more? Maybe it is important that the change happen on it's own, that Liz develop without outside interference. This could also explain why he didn't tell the podsquad more about Twilo, destiny, and any prophecies. Well, you may say... then why was he seeming to force destiny down their throats? Two possibilities: 1. He could have known that Max would never mate with Tess and he was just teasing him or testing him. ...or 2. He is bad, a diverted SSer, and wants to change history. Hmmm.... I wish the writers were more consistent when writing the SSers, that way maybe we could figure out what is going on.

...awaken...

So Qfanny, you should have seen how excited I was when Ava said Liz was changed. The series of collages I've been working on lately all revolve around "transformation" as you know, and I was thrilled I was on to something. Don't worry, Liz can still be human, just maybe advanced. And I figure at the rate they have been writing, we'll be lucky if we find out anymore by next May. Hope you're doing okay on the project.

Hmmm... what seemed strange to me was that they were there one second ( I think they really were there, in all their evilness ), then gone. Maybe a Tess mindwarp? But *for what purpose*? That's what's been bothering me about these things (maybe discrepancies) that are most easily explained by a Tess mindwarp. WHAT'S THE POINT? This, the fire... :whimper: help me.

I suppose this all goes back to my distrust of Edsedo, but I seriously feel the guy was a baddie. I feel he wanted the SAME history to reoccur. If this is the case, then Max with Tess could quite possibly destroy them all (as it did in the past life)? As a Dreamer, I'm often very biased to the idea of making a Max/Tess (romantic) pairing what seals the podsters' doom. If Edsedo was indeed a villain and he was the biggest advocate of "Destiny"... Max/Tess pairing = bad, Max/Liz pairing = good... Max/Liz pairing is what Edsedo tried to prevent.

Ed quite possibly knew Liz was changed (or it could be explained he knew) and was a VERY REAL threat to his (Khivar's? Nikolas?) plan, hence his treatment of her in TLV, M2TM and "She doesn't belong here" line in DESTINY. Making her feel uncomfortable, threatened, out of place (Edsedo's attempt to make Liz uncomfortable with her alien brethren... remember Liz being afraid of Tess in [I think] CRAZY? "She scares me Max"). When in reality, Liz has felt more comfortable and at home with Max than anyone/thing else, "It just feels right... it feels right like nothing in my life before." (and I probably slaughtered that Liz quote from SH) Liz KNOWS she must be with Max (and Max knows he must be with her). Edsedo knew this because he possibly KNEW something else (possibly more than Ava even... maybe this is where all the prophecy theories come in??). Not only Liz was changed by Max but also that Liz IS THE ONE. Edsedo attempted to separate her from the group but failed (and possibly this is why he was killed or was allowed to be killed by Whitaker. Neither Nik nor Khivar bothered protecting Ed).

Why would he have seemingly saved her in M2TM then? I have no idea. Perhaps he didn't want his cover blown and it would have simply *looked good* if he saved Liz... or at least got her out of the way. Either way, Edsedo knew Max's life was in danger (and for whatever reason, they need Max alive... because Ed knew he was *the true King* [the only one that can find/use the Granilith?]). If Liz was captured, Max would have moved hell and high water (as would Michael & Isabel, dragging Tess and Nas along) to save her. If Max was captured, Max has a better chance of defending himself and of course they were all going to save him. Or perhaps Nas knew if the special unit did their little tests on Liz... they would have discovered something Nas didn't want Liz, the feds or the podsters to know about? I don't know, this is all really insane I suppose.

btw, ALWAYS love your gorgeous collages and pics Red. They're some of the best imo

Melodious

The theory that Zan may have visited earth before is very close to a theory that my Aunt uses in her FanFic Decendants-the Liz/Max Connection.

Max's alien father Gray meets Liz's ancestor Aisling while he is on earth to observe how earthlings resolve their differences. They form a bond that will transcend time, space and species. It's a great story and is on Crashdown if anyone is interested.

I also think that Tess has her own agenda. Did anyone notice the look on her face when Max stood up for her and told Rath that her name was Tess. It may be a power thing in wanting to be Queen. I can't bring myself to like or trust her.

I've read theories and specs that Tess may have killed Lonnie and Rath and that's why they were no where to be seen when Max found her. Maybe a key (crystal) is needed to use the Granilith and that Tess is just waiting for the Podsters to find it before she makes her move.

Tisha

How could they *possibly* discover Alex is Khivar? Through Maria via her relationship with Brody.... possibly post MITC Max tells Maria the nature of Brody's *abductions*. So Maria might get to know Brody well enough to possibly recognize when Brody is starting to show signs of being *off*. Since Maria knows Alex so well and would possibly have the experience to *see* that something was not only wrong with Alex in general but that what's happening to him is similar to Brody... Maria will stumble on Alex not being Alex.

I could also see this "Which one in Roswell is NOT what they appear to be??" storyline possibly being one used towards the season finale. Someone will betray them, but this someone doesn't even KNOW they're (or will be) the betrayer? Sounds exciting to me A storyline which was even eluded to in the promos for the season premiere... granted, the *one with the secret* they were actually referencing in those particular promos has probably already been discovered, but the idea is still in my head. Could be anyone.

Melodious

You should write for Roswell! You hear that JK!?!? HIRE MELODIOUS!!!

Of course, the powers/instances from the past life can't really be parallel the ones which have molded this one. Max's powers now are arguably different than his powers before.... he might have never been able to heal before until he got these *advanced human* abilities. Ava "knowing" that Liz was changed could have been deduced from something she witnessed/experienced with Zan? Zan possibly healed someone (another human girl?) and this girl was also changed permanently? If so, where could this girl be?

If Tess has always known that Liz is at least *different*, then she's willfully kept it to herself. She lives believing she is Max's destiny and whatever Liz is now, it's nothing comparable to what she [Tess] had (and will have) with Max. Yet when Tess discovers what Liz did in MITC... will she have the same or similar reaction to Ava?? Tess now realizes that Liz and Max's connection runs far deeper than she suspected and is actually a REAL threat... if this is so will Tess, A) Realize that perhaps what she was raised to believe isn't necessarily so and learn to start letting go of Max and let him be with Liz or B) Work even harder to separate Liz from Max?

Melodious

Thanks for the complement Steph, but if I was writing for ROSWELL it would have to be on HBO (and my naughty, NC-17 fanfic reading, Dreamer side rears it's head). I'd also probably have them ::gasp:: swearing. Particularly where the Dupes are concerned. I'd figure they would have (realistically) been swearing to make sailors blush... but since it's the WB and those d**n censorship laws exist.

Melodious

And speaking of that, Tess.... hmm... the writers have been writing her differently this season. I've fallen for it. (my dreamer heart is way too nice.) I feel sorry for her. And I was actually proud of her when she blew those skins to smithereens(sp?). And when Max stepped out into the street thereby missing getting struck by the falling scaffold, my first thought was Liz (I'm a dreamer remember) and Max says, "Liz...", and then my next thought was Tess, oh no, and then Max says, "Tess" and rushes after her. I was like, 'oh no they're gonna hurt Tess' (It's amazing how my mind can forget the nasty things she did to Max and Liz last season.) So, anyway, there is a point to this. I think that it really was Tess that Max brought home to Roswell. I think her line about "going home, (pause) to Roswell" was the writer's way of showing us that Liz and FM's plan really worked. I think that there is a good chance that she is just an innocent bystander... that if Nasedo was evil, he was just using Tess, filling her head with ideas to push on the podsquad. BUT with all of that said, I have this horrible feeling of dread. That sometime in the future, after the writers have gotten everyone to feel pity for her and accept her, they are going to turn around and stab us in the back and laugh their heads off. Okay so I know that was a very messy and confusing thought, hope you all can sort it out.

YES! What a smug little... ggrrrrr... punk...

I disagree that the writers have made Tess nice this season. I think she's ominous. There are just enough weird things that she does to make her seem possibly even more dangerous than before. For instance, my last post about the mindwarps. Someone explain that to me and I might think about accepting Tess. Just my opinion, FWIW.

Oh, and by the way, Melodious1, I'm glad you like my collages.
...where it all began...

Pics for animation courtesy of Vidiot and the Crashdown.

The Episodes page shows the air date for each episode. (The time setting of each story may differ a little from its original air date, but sometimes the latter is all we have to go by.)

My question is if Tess and/or Max, in their former lives, were killed before they got married than why did Larek(Brody) say he attended their wedding? Did they or didn't they get married? And did anyone else notice Tess smiling when Brody say "wedding"? What was that about?!?! Grrrr... that's the dreamer in me

True, she isn't doing the things to M&L that she did last season...but that could be--probably is--because Liz is now out of the way, as far as she's concerned. Also, as I said before, she seems power-hungry. And I'm still not sure I believe that she lost control when she destroyed the Skins. I don't hate her, I do feel sorry for her at times, but I get a bad feeling about her. That's not to say that she's evil or anything; it's just sort of a strange vibe.

That said, it also seems to me that Tess knows more--maybe a lot more--than she's telling the rest of the Pod Squad. And I wouldn't be at all surprised if it involved Liz. Maybe Liz really was Max's lover in a previous life, and Tess doesn't want to tell them because it would put her position in danger. Better yet, what if Liz was actually the bride, not Tess? That's a little far-fetched, but anything's possible.

I soooo loved this scene and felt the need to post this pic. That was just so cute when Max's fingers appear behind her head in the shape of antennae. I didn't know it was coming.

Pic courtesy of www.theddd.com .

My question is if Tess and/or Max, in their former lives, were killed before they got married than why did Larek(Brody) say he attended their wedding? Did they or didn't they get married? And did anyone else notice Tess smiling when Brody say "wedding"? What was that about?!?! Grrrr... that's the dreamer in me

I would love to think that the revolution occurred on Max and Tess's wedding day! Let it be so! Let it be so! It doesn't seem so. Larek didn't seem to have a crestfallen look at the mention of their nuptials, but I'll have to look again.

This is just my own pet theory about Liz's change. What if on Twilo they mate for life and in the alien version or marriage you connect with your 'intended' and share your essence with him/her both ways, and then this connection is made permanent with the physical consumation of the marriage. Future Max says that after Liz and Max made love that they became inseperable.....perhaps that is because the bond became permanent and after that point could not be undone.

This could also explain the changes that are happening to Liz, this is the first part of the 'change' that has to take place for her to be truly compatible with Max. This of course will be completed when they 'cement' and would explain why although Kyle was also healed by Max he doesn't have any powers.

Hopeful_Lurker

A friend of mine who is VERY spoiled said she read on the spoiler board that Max's little "antennae" gesture was all JB. He *adlibbed* it per se.

Simply adorable

quote:Originally posted by redhawk:
Originally posted by Melodious1:
She lives believing she is Max's destiny and whatever Liz is now, it's nothing comparable to what she [Tess] had (and will have) with Max.

Okay, okay, so maybe they won't get everyone to pity her.

I suppose that sounded pretty negative where Tess is concerned. I really do try and make a conscious effort to not let my obsession for M/L cloud my better judgement... it is hard sometimes. Once again though, if Tess does believe (or is capable of) any of what I speculated, I still think it all goes back to Edsedo. I didn't trust the guy at all. However, he could have been so adamant with the "destiny" (adamant with the destiny = go back to Twilo and ditch the one horse planet), he was absolutely blinded by any other *possibility*... and when *other possibilities* arose (possibly realized Liz was changed), he pushed "destiny" even harder. Which also could be contributing to my dislike / distrust of him. I don't know.

I don't hate Tess but I'll probably never be a Hussy.

Melodious

This is just my own pet theory about Liz's change. What if on Twilo they mate for life and in the alien version or marriage you connect with your 'intended' and share your essence with him/her both ways, and then this connection is made permanent with the physical consumation of the marriage. Future Max says that after Liz and Max made love that they became inseperable.....perhaps that is because the bond became permanent and after that point could not be undone.

This could also explain the changes that are happening to Liz, this is the first part of the 'change' that has to take place for her to be truly compatible with Max. This of course will be completed when they 'cement' and would explain why although Kyle was also healed by Max he doesn't have any powers.

Hopeful_Lurker

Hopeful_Lurker I like the way you think!! I loved when FMax said that things were "cemented" and I think that is why Tess is so eager to be his "mate." Have you also noticed how the writers have made it clear how different Liz and Tess's thinking are about sex. Liz feels it is soooooo important (which it is) and Tess says it is "only" sex.

Nesedo said in WR that their powers were those of advanced humans. Perhaps, Max just accelerated Liz's cells during the healing that transformed them to an advanced human stage. Maybe we're not looking at "alien" powers at all, just those of advanced human development.

This makes me wonder if Nacedo's attempts to keep Max and Liz apart was deliberate, knowing it was important to stay apart until her rebirth?

BTW, I like the idea posted earlier about Max/Zan wanting to introduce a form of democracy to his Class system of the Haves and the HaveNots back home on Twilo. (Does this sound like Socialism?)

Now that Liz had saved Max's life, they are not just even, they are now Equal, which is important in a relationship, I believe.

WR.

The discussion (or lack thereof...on the show at least) about Liz being changed is intruiging me. Redhawk, you and I had the same reaction! When Ava said that Liz could do it because she was changed, I wanted to jump outta my chair and scream, "I KNEW IT!" Ava's saying that also says to me that she is human fully, but because of the healing she's more. I do find it really interesting that Is had her eyes open when holding hands with Liz and trying to contact Max. Maybe Liz needed the extra strength that holding hands and connecting with Is provided, but she could do the connecting to Max by herself... I was also very frustrated that Ava didn't explain anything. Why'd she have to take off so quick? I mean, where's she gonna go?
Redhawk, I had the same feelings about the scene with Liz and Maria at "the place with the thing that they went that one time with what's her name" (I love that line!)My heart has been tearing out for Liz ever since ETOW, because she was so alone in her secret. She was lying and hiding from everyone, and finally, she has Maria on her side again! I know we've all talked before about how Liz and Maria's friendship this season has been lacking the 17-year-old feeling of friends no matter what and sweet little moments of concern and understanding, well there it was! Liz and Maria are back, or at least they were for that one scene. Now all the writers have to do is not screw it up again!
Mel~ I totally loved your idea of Kavar (How do you spell that dude's name anywayz?)coming to take over Alex's body! I totally loved the fact that Brody has more to do with the whole alien thing than he knows, and I would love to see it again in another character!
About the whole Tess not being Tess thing, I agree with whoever said that they felt her saying "Let's go home, back to Roswell." showed that she's beginning to accept her more human side. (Or something like that...) I realize that the writers are trying to make us like Tess, and I have to admit, it's working on me. I'm still a little leary of her, and I still want to puke everytime I hear her say lovey-dovey things to Max about how wonderful he is...(cough, cough) but I have been doing a lot of examining into her character traits, and I think that she's very genuine in what she says and does. (Granted there are still little things like the looking at CW picture that are weird, but those could be written off to bad editing and a weird smell on the set...) If anyone what's me to ellaborate on what my take on Tess is, I will. But I won't if no one wants to hear it...
Anywayz, it's good to be back, and I hope that you all will remember me! lol
Agent Rox , over and out!

This is just my own pet theory about Liz's change. What if on Twilo they mate for life and in the alien version or marriage you connect with your 'intended' and share your essence with him/her both ways, and then this connection is made permanent with the physical consumation of the marriage. Future Max says that after Liz and Max made love that they became inseperable.....perhaps that is because the bond became permanent and after that point could not be undone.

This could also explain the changes that are happening to Liz, this is the first part of the 'change' that has to take place for her to be truly compatible with Max. This of course will be completed when they 'cement' and would explain why although Kyle was also healed by Max he doesn't have any powers.

Hopeful_Lurker

Hi Hopeful Lurker!
I just said the same thing on one of my egroups, although you stated it much better than I did. I agree with you. That would make perfectly good sense and also be so romantic. Just think, Max instinctively knew to make this connection with Liz because of his attraction to her. He was following his hormones and spirit.

WR.

Agreed!

All this talk about cementing is besieging me with uncontrollable giggles. Thinking of wet, goopy cement - oh it's too weird! I'm stopping, sorry .

WR.

Yes Yes I do WR...

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
Although Liz herself doesn't seem to be born in Year of the Dragon, it does seem the Dragon symbolism is most often made with her and only her ... **One could possibly speculate, since this is the year Liz has seemingly discovered she has “powers”, then one might say she was “reborn” in the Year of the Dragon… as the Dragon?**

I included that in my original post but I can understand why it could have been missed. I'm just NOT economic with my words and my (coherent) ideas get lost in the myriad

Melodious

Sorry Melodius1. I have been really busy lately, and reading these posts quickly. Sorry I missed that.

WR (who will now make appointment with opticians :lol

It seems to me when Lonnie first brings up the Granolith to Max, Tess all of a sudden gets very flustered, and her body language is practically screaming "NO!!" When Max looks at her, you can see the tiniest shake of the head. Then Max says he doesn't know about it, and she looks relieved, even rolls her eyes to the ceiling like, "woo, close call."

Tess isn't telling them something she knows. Who is she and what is she? This is bugging me so much!

Something that might back up this viewpoint is that the emissary uses only his bare hand to access the seal on Max's brain. The body is just a regular human body. Therefore, the power to do this came from the same brain, etc., as any other human. Perhaps the trick is just in knowing how to access it.

This kind of goes along with some of my Edsedo thoughts/sentiment of late... Does anyone else think that possibly (at least symbolically) the reason why Liz seemingly *prefers* Ava over Tess is that T was attached to Edsedo and Ava wasn't? Ava is still the *young bride* (at least another version of her) yet Liz accepted her *literally* with open arms from the getgo.

Granted, Liz is rather biased where Tess is concerned... T basically stormed into town and tried to swoop the guy she loves out from under her. Ava IS NOT Tess as far as we could tell... none of the Dupes resembled their counterparts beyond the physical. Yet I still think Tess being with Ed (at least under his *bad* influence) and Ava being away from him is something Liz possibly *saw* which made Liz trust Ava right away?

Ava and Liz almost seemed to form a kinship ... Ava loved Zan and Liz loves Max. Liz = Ava? Yet Liz doesn't equal or see eye to eye with Tess? Could it simply be because Liz / Tess got off on the wrong foot and that's never really been rectified or is there something more here? Why would she accept Ava so quickly? Because Ava obviously didn't seem to have *designs* on Max... or is there also something more to Liz's trust in her? Liz's *intuition* is also often correct (and sometimes expands past *surface judgement*... Liz trusted Topolsky when she really had no reason to, yet it was the *right* decision). It's just weird.

Melodious

Redhawk, I just had to respond to this. What if the dupes were so reluctant to talk because they assassinated their protector (seems like the sort of thing they'd do, whether they had a reason or not), but he didn't die and now needs the pills to be able to shapeshift because of his injuries? As for his whereabouts, your guess is as good as mine

The theory that Zan may have visited earth before is very close to a theory that my Aunt uses in her FanFic Decendants-the Liz/Max Connection.

Max's alien father Gray meets Liz's ancestor Aisling while he is on earth to observe how earthlings resolve their differences. They form a bond that will transcend time, space and species. It's a great story and is on Crashdown if anyone is interested.

I also think that Tess has her own agenda. Did anyone notice the look on her face when Max stood up for her and told Rath that her name was Tess. It may be a power thing in wanting to be Queen. I can't bring myself to like or trust her.

I've read theories and specs that Tess may have killed Lonnie and Rath and that's why they were no where to be seen when Max found her. Maybe a key (crystal) is needed to use the Granilith and that Tess is just waiting for the Podsters to find it before she makes her move.

Tisha

I have actually read descendents and it is good.

I also have to agree with you regarding Tess. I am still having a hard time trusting this sudden turn around in her personality Waiting for the key to be found before making her move could definately explain why she hasn't already betrayed them. Did you notice the look on her face at the top of the Empire State building, she is definately in love with the idea of being queen. Also, I really feel that line about loyalty and how she has always stood by Max's side is pure set-up for the betrayal, especially in the context of all the references to trusting the wrong people.

As for K'var possessing Tess. Maybe, but it would have to be with her knowledge. Otherwise, she would complain of time lost, etc. I think when K'var finally comes to Earth, the body he'll choose will not be Tess's, will not be Alex's but.... Liz's! He knows, through Nicholas' mind raping of Max, who she is and how important she is to the King. It's only natural that the only body Max will not harm, and even protect with the full knowledge that K'var is in it, would be of his love.

If Eva knew of the prophecies, or legends of the one who'll be healed by the King, then Nacero knew too.

I had a question. If Zan healed somebody (as Ava seemed to imply and Lannie referred to in MTD), could the human girl he healed be ... Serena? Liz's, if not twin, at least her equal in brains, leadership, loyalty, etc.?

Future Max seemed to imply that after they cemented their relationship neither Max nor Liz evolved any longer. Thus creating the end of the world! (and not because of Tess's absence!). That's why it's ironic that the first protector of Liz's virginity is Future Max. The next one will be/is: Present Max. As I said - ironic.

I have started reading everyones great theories on this thread but I don't really have time right now to read carefully yet

I just want to throw one thing out there that has been bugging me.

Did anyone else notice the funny CLICKING SOUND that TESS was making at the end when Max came and found her alone, as he cupped her face there was this FUNNY CLICKING SOUND--I don't think I am crazy, could someone look closely and listen carefully at this part again and see what they think?

Be back later I hope, family commitments right now.

Great work on the DRAGON-Melodious1 and Starbox. And STARBOX I STILL THINK TESS IS UP TO NO GOOD--so I am with you, a leopard doesn't change its spots!!!!!

Somewhere back in time Zan either met his soul mate here on earth, or she was sent here, this theory has been express several times I know.

But I have two theories on how this relates to Liz.

1. What if Liz's mom, Nancy, and Sheila Hubble were sisters? (I checked the dates, and assuming that Sheila was not older than E. Hubble, they were no more than 10yrs appart in age, Nancy being the younger sis)
And lets say that somehow Sheila knew too much, maybe she was onto one of the skins, and this is why she was murdered. Is it really a coincidence that she was murdered in '70, after Nicolas ordered the skins to clean up any messes. (according to Witaker's journal) Now lets assume that a S.S. was watching out for Sheila, and arrived just after she was murdered, he tried to save her (or possibly her unborn daughter) because of the importance that her offspring would have in the future.
Since the S.S. got away that night, and it is unclear how long it took for Hubble and Valenti SR. to find him...is it possible that after an autopsey was done on Sheila, the S.S. broke into the morgue and stole the fetus and brought it back to life? But then what did he do with it? No one else was born in '70, that we know of. Did he create a new pod, one we don't know about? Did he send it to Twilo? Who knows! But I just think that it is odd that Liz resembled Sheila, and that they mentioned her being pregnant with a girl. Was the S.S. capable of somehow stopping the development of the fetus, then later implant Nancy with it when she was older?

OK, so now for idea number 2...

Grandma Claudia was 14 in '47, and lets say the pic that Liz has of an alien (the one she says her g-ma took) is the real deal, perhalps GC befriended this alien in their brief encounter. So we know that Nasedo escaped, but the other living alien from the crash (to my knowledge) has never been proven to have died during the 3yrs of being a prisoner. Maybe he (assuming that it is a he) escaped in '50 (also the year the skins arrived, coincidence?)and he found GC again, now 17yo, and began a relationship with her. This would then mean that Jeff Parker, born in '55, would be 1/2 alien, and Liz 1/4.

Now...something that may tie these two ideas together, what if GC's alien is also the one that was trying to protect Sheila in '70, the one that E. Hubble shot and killed.

GC's alien couldn't have been Zan, since he had already "Perished" before the crash.
But maybe he was the key holder to the granolith (I like the idea that Liz is the key to making it work, perhalps she has the crystal that FM used in EOTW)

So going on these ideas (it has many holes I know, but that's why I am asking for some help/suggestions) Liz is one of the following:
1) 1/4 alien
2) Sheila & E. Hubble's daughter (possibley altered previously during her first reberth [was 1950 a year of the dragon? ])
3) Both 1/4 alien, grandaughter of crash survivor, and decendent of Zan's past soulmate. (going on the idea that Nancy and Sheila were sisters)

Ok it's out there, but...

tell me what you think, PLEASE!

Tess isn't telling them something she knows. Who is she and what is she? This is bugging me so much!

I noticed that too and it's not just that one time. It's EVERY time someone mentions the granolith! she looks nervous like she knows something. Don't trust her...

I also believe that the person who stated that Tess was different than Ava in an entirely evilish way was because she was influenced by nasedo. And maybe tess doesn't really remember the truth about the past and that Nasedo only implanted these memories into her!

Also I know tess knows more than she says because she alwayz seems to be hiding something. I also believe she will betray the pod squad because some people/aliens act all nice but twist things to their benefit.

OH bTW! when Um Lonnie and Rath were making out rite in front of Tess and Max did u see the look they gave each other! it totally distrubed me!!

I believe Liz has some sort of a special role in this whole alienation thingy.

WELll I Luv ROSWELL I dunno waht i would do without it!!

Did anyone ever notice (and point out on this board) that Liz was standing directly behind Max and Tess during the Mom-o-gram. (at least that is how I remember it, I only saw it once). When the mother spoke of the "bride - Tess" she did not nesessarly look at Tess. Could she not possibly have looked over at Liz? After all - this was a letter almost a recording for them to find. You never know whether or not Liz is his bride.

Now many wonder then - why did she dissappear. Or why does Tess have Ava. Well what if Max fell in love with an Earthling. We are not sure whether or not the alien ever visited earth before. Possibly they did - seeing as they choose earth to send the royals too - why not some other world? Max may have visited Earth - met Liz - fell in love - taken her back with him. When the world was taken over and the pod-sqaud set to earth, could Liz have been sent too. Not as a alien - but still human. To be reborn like the rest only no double seeing as she is human. That could be the leaking pod. Yet when she was rebord she was more evolved - but not as much as the pod-squad - therefore disapearing in the WO.

Well, what do you think?

<3 Rachel
"If someone loves you, won't they always love you?"

Ava IS NOT Tess as far as we could tell... none of the Dupes resembled their counterparts beyond the physical.

or is there something more here? Why would she accept Ava so quickly? Because Ava obviously didn't seem to have *designs* on Max... or is there also something more to Liz's trust in her? Liz's *intuition* is also often correct (and sometimes expands past *surface judgement*...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, I think that the good batch, bad batch, of pods goes deeper than who acts more alien.

I think that there were caracter flaws in all 4 of the original Twilo Royals, flaws that were intentionally attempted to be left out of the hyprids (at Witaker called them).

For example:

Valandra was disloyal, and apperently permisquous (sp?). But so far I have no reason to believe that Is would ever intentionally betray the PS, her friends, or even a lover. And although she is quite a temptress, I don't think she's in any way a slut.

Rath I think was also disloyal, if he indeed aspired to take over the throne.

Zan, well perhalps Zan's only flaw was that he didn't have his soulmate by his side.

Ava, maybe her flaw then (as it is Tess' now) was her inability to acknowledge that Zan was NOT meant to be with her.

All these bad flaws show up in the Dupes, and yes I am holding on to the idea that there was a Tess/Ava switch.

That is exactly my thought I beilive the reason the parents sent the pod squad to earth was to find the key. The granolith obviously has great power but no one has yet to see it. It is a holy object and yet the only person who seems to know of just how great its power it has is Liz. I think the parents sent them to earth with the granolith to find the key to help open the granolith which would be a catalyst for all their powers which would intern not only weaken the enemy on earth but help destroy the enemy when the time came for them to go home and fight.

From Larek comments, it seemed the change that Max/Zan's predecessor wanted on Planet Twilo must have been drastic. So I think there were many people against this change. Change in itself is very scary and for Max/Zan's predecessor to assume the throne and try to buck the system would cause the people to question his ability to rule. This could be a reason that Kivar was able to overturn the Royal 4 because he took the stance of preserving the current life of Planet Twilo, a life that everyone was familiar with. If it were a lord-serf or slave-master society, then the people of Planet Twilo would feel that they needed to stick with what they knew because the unknown would be too scary. When the slaves were freed in the south many was unsure what to know because slavery was all that they knew. I don't know if any of the above post made sense , but I hope that you see where I am going.

Beth

I'm going to divert the discussion a bit by something that has yet to be discussed - the Liz/Rath kiss (Yuck!)! So, do you think Rath got any flashes? Is that how they knew Max and his "b*^&%" had broken up? I don't think that Liz got flashes, but I thought it was interesting that Rath goes "Epic!" after the kiss. Ummm... Just wanted to get some thoughts since Liz's kissing Evil Max/Harding was significant - though we have yet to find out why other than it told her he was NOT Max!

BTW - Some great thoughts!! and love your pics Redhawk! Always a treat!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

Since no one outside of Nicholas and Khivar knew it was even missing, it must not have had any practical use. So why send it along with the Royal Four to Roswell, New Mexico? Maybe the granilith was looking for Liz Parker. If the granilith really is some kind of "holy grail", it might know exactly what it's doing.

Life outside of Roswell has kept me from these boards for about a week. I'm trying to catch up with all you're great thoughts and appologize in advance if I repeat things already said.

I found myself really enjoying Journey to New York. I liked the way they incorporated the music, and especially liked the last 5 minutes or so of the show. The interactions between M/I, L/Ava, Brody/Maria, and Liz/Max are for me a big part of why I fell in love with Roswell in the first place. The need to find acceptance and a place in this world (or in the case of Roswell any world) and the need to be loved I thought were beautifully addressed in these 4 scenes. More tender moments like this please!!!!

I find that I like Ava but I still don't trust Tess. I guess I just can't get past the way she tried to trick Max into wanting her when she first came to town. My husband tells me I hold grudges way too long!!

Here are some of my thoughts on Journey to New York.

1)I couldn't help but think about the whole time thing that Courtney told them about when watching the begining of the show where we see the clouds and boats moving supper fast, and then again when Max looks through the binocular things on the empire State Building. I thought is there some kind of time continuim thing going on or just creative filming.

2)The elevator stops on floor #86,as Max is talking about this being a bad idea, as if he's wanting to scrap the whole idea. All I could think of was the saying I 86'd the idea, meaning of course I scraped the idea.

3)The crossbars on the glass on the top of the Empire State Building are diamonds! We see Tess looking through one and Max looking through another...2 of diamonds!

4) Is the tatoo on the back of Lonnie's neck a horse? I tried everything to get a good look at it but I couldn't figure it out. It looked like one of the tatoos on Rath's arm might be an eagle.

5) I wonder if there will be any signifigance to the order in which the planets of the V costellation positioned themselves when the emmisary zapped the immage out of Max's mind. Starting on the top left they fell into place 1,4,5(Max's planet),3,and 2. Does anyone remember how they fell into place when Micheael placed the healing stones into the cave map?

6)When Rath explains that the emissary was using a human body from a temp service, that he was just a vessle, all I could think of was Kyle telling Liz in TEOTW that his body was just a vessle.

7) The look that Ava gave Liz when Liz told her that Max brought her back from death seemed to me like she was looking at her in awe, like she was in the company of greatness. Maybe it's just my little dreamer heart working overtime, but I really got the feeling Ava knows that Liz is THE ONE!

8) More references to cards - Nicholas saying "big talk for a woman with no cards to play", and Lonnie saying "I got cards, I just haven't shown them to you yet."

9)Ava says "Liz can do it, Max brought you back from the dead, you've been changed". Future Max told Liz, it's not just Max that's the problem here Liz, you're not letting yourself change. Liz says of herself in SH that she feels herself changing, that its something chemical. What's my point - I don't really know, perhaps it is necessary for Liz to be aware of the fact that she is changed, and special to ultimately be with Max.

10) I found it interesting that R/L/A/Z all had a tatoo of the 4 square symbol which represents our roswell gangs pod chamber, but thier pods were in a straight line and not at all in this formation.

11) Now that we know Liz has a special ability to astro project, it makes me wonder if this is how she entered the healing circle so long ago, and also how she was able to see GC (I've always thought and I know we discussed it before that Liz could have been the one to make GC appear and not Max).

12) Did Max ask Tess what are they or who are they when he finds her sitting alone?

13) When Max finds Tess sitting alone she is sitting in the Buddha's position! There just has to be some signifigance to this.

14)So, what are we thinking about Liz's tiny yes head shake to Max of his question did you sleep with Kyle. This is driving me crazy, did he take that as yes, or the fact that she just pretty much stared at him he took as a no. He has that adorable little grin when he leaves her room and I'm thinking he takes her answer as no. What's the general feeling out there. My husband said to me aren't you glad they got picked up for more episodes, otherwise this would have been the final one and it would have left you wondering forever.

15) Brody orders Galaxy subs which I find ironic considering that's what he is when thay use his body - a substitute for a being from another galaxy!

Well, those are my thoughts for tonight.

Starstruck

I shall believe!

Ava, maybe her flaw then (as it is Tess' now) was her inability to acknowledge that Zan was NOT meant to be with her.

All these bad flaws show up in the Dupes, and yes I am holding on to the idea that there was a Tess/Ava switch.

Very intriguing thoughts 1wld on the idea of the dupes being *reflections* of the "flawed (proto) Royal Four". Elaborating on these "what ifs" even further...

Zan: What if Zan DID have a love in his past life (as you seemed to elude 1wld), but possibly because of his father's *untimely* death (assassinated?). Zan wasn't ready to take the throne, yet he DID have ideas.

Although Zan was in love, he chose not to marry this girl (his soulmate? Possibly a human girl based on other theories of Zan visiting Earth *prior* taking the throne) and he chose someone else "more suitable" for the situation at hand, Ava. Chose Ava because marrying her would be "better" for the *good of the kingdom* (in *his vision* of how the Kingdom should be). It's quite possible, Ava was/is from *the other side* or *another side* to somehow bring peace to a conflicted planet / galaxy. I think this would be a good explanation why she was sent AT ALL, the "young bride" connected because *her kingdom* united two important (and/or warring) factions?

Making this alliance (and possibly the time it was made, perhaps too late), however, was just ONE bad (w/ good intent but still bad) decision, possibly of many. A series of decisions that eventually led to *Mom* sending recreated versions of the Royal Four to Earth (w/ the Granilith if it wasn't already on Earth by this time).

Ava: Her flaw possibly just going along with everything. Not protesting or arguing the decisions made for her and by the King. At times maybe realizing the situation was only becoming more severe but yet kept quiet. Her flaw was silence and passivity? Not realizing that she SHOULDN'T HAVE MARRIED ZAN and should have never been with him (even though she did love him)?

Ava said that Zan always tried to *make the right decisions*... but at the same time seemed like he was "waiting for someone else." Zan in the past life loved another but married Ava because it was the *right decision* (or at least he thought it was, not realizing WHAT to do exactly)... but eventually turned out to be a wrong decision.

Not saying the Zan/Ava union was the primary cause of the eventual collapse... but not saying it helped either. It could have been a very major factor in it. Zan making the *wrong* alliance (irritating the wrong people) or simply making it too late?

Yet here are the Royal Four... on Earth... and this new Zan, the only remaining Zan, Max... has loved a human girl from the first moment he saw her. Inexplicably drawn to her, so much so he risked his life to save her. He loves her so much, she pushes him away (quite effectively) and he *continues* to love her. Like an obsession! This girl we just realize has been changed by this new Zan, and in turn, just saved his life with these newly discovered powers. She *saved a king* from the same people that killed the OTHER version of the Earth king (a version that WAS waiting for someone that never came). Coincidence?! I think not.

Could it be that - whatever cosmic force out there - is trying to RIGHT the WRONG of a past life? (New) Zan getting a second chance to right *everything*? Fate allowing him to be with this *(human?) girl he loved* when it was absolutely impossible before (because it WAS this girl he was always supposed to be with)? This girl is now in Liz's form, but once again, Fate is intervening... making it possible for the new King to be with this girl because this girl is now being *changed* to *fit* into his "destiny"?

Liz IS important... and she's ESPECIALLY important to the King!

Melodious

i personally think that liz is part alien, or at least(as we know) shes changed because of one thing: michael picked up a skin thingy, it disintegrated. nasedo picked one up, it disintergrated. maria picked one up, NOTHING HAPPENED. then liz picked one up and it was gone. only the HUMAN one didnt disintegrate it. maybe the "good" aliens,being enemies to the skins, have something in their cells that react with the skin..because maria definitely didnt!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I really think that this applies to Liz. She is Max's dragon. It's perfect because Max does come to her for advise, she always has solutions for them to protect them against exposure and death.

The dragon year comes every 12 years. Do these numbers mean anything?

Zero, your intro is great. I've been reading this thread for the past 6-7 threads and I have thouroughly enjoyed everyones ideas. I'm just starting to post, because I've been trying to absorb the information.

I haven't been here in awhile. Okay what if the whole story of Vilandra got mixed, or Nicholas just told Lonnie and Isabel that just to get information. This may sound crazy , but I had a dream that Liz was Vilandra, but Vilandra was Khivar's sister. And that Liz knows that Khivar is after her (hence the shooting at the Crashdown), but doesn't remember anything about her past. Wouldn't it be funny if Liz did turn out to be Vilandra, Khivar's sister.

I think TicTac needs to get his self back to Roswell. I still stand in my belief that Harding was not Nasedo. Harding just gave off an evil vibe to me. Did you guys notice that Harding nevered mentioned the granolith? You'd think that he would have mentioned it. Harding probably cut a deal with the skins promising that he would give them the granolith, but since he probably didn't deliver quickly the skins killed him.

Also - can anyone sum up the "hero's journey" here? I know some have referred to it - and I think it is directly applicable to what both Max and Liz (in particular) are going through right now. I would love to incorporate it into the into the (ever expanding) intro.

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I luv roswelLL! tehehehe!! but 3 weeks! aww

I have been thinking a lot about someones theory on this board about the twin souls.

One of Max powers is that in situations with intense emotion he gets flashes of people. Now when he healed Liz and "brought" her back this was a situation of intense emotion for the love of his life was dying and that is why he got the images. I also beilive since Max does not feel for Kyle what he had always felt for Liz this will leave Kyle with no powers there was no exchange of intense emotion and therefore no images hence no connection of souls. I think that now Liz and Max are one soul seperated in two bodies(twin souls) I think that Liz's power will only work with Max, she draws on his essence and that is why he saw her in New York and why Isabel could not reach him. She is in essence become half of him. I also think this was the only reason she saw flashes when she kissed Nacedo because he was Maxcedo and the facade of Max her twin soul opened the door to his mind and she saw things. That is why I think Ava was so disturbed because she realized that now Max the "king" has a major weakness in Liz. For now neither of them can die without killing the other, because what life form can live with half a soul. Once this is found out by the enemy this "connction" it will give them a power play against Max. I also think this is why Ava kept quiet about Liz's changing for so long and did'nt go so in depth because she was afraid that that knowledge if ever found out by mind rape would be the end of them. This would also explain why Zan felt so lost, because the Dupes are replicas of the royal four therefore of the same essence though obviosly products of their environment. Zan would have felt that connection but would have been lost because he did not find what his soul sought; its other half. Sorry I know my Wiccan status is getting in the way but this is just food for thoguht.

I really think that this applies to Liz. She is Max's dragon. It's perfect because Max does come to her for advise, she always has solutions for them to protect them against exposure and death.

The dragon year comes every 12 years. Do these numbers mean anything?

Zero, your intro is great. I've been reading this thread for the past 6-7 threads and I have thouroughly enjoyed everyones ideas. I'm just starting to post, because I've been trying to absorb the information.[/QUOTE
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Michworl
This makes so much sense. I absolutely see Liz as Max's protector and advisor. She has often been the one to initiate their investigations and "missions". She has also put herself on the line many times to protect or rescue Max and the Pod squad.

I posted the following at the very end of the last thread so I am sure it was missed by some or perhaps dismissed as unimportant. I think it really ties into what you have said about the role of the dragon in Chinese mythology.

ORIGINALLY POSTED ON11/28
One of the things I have noticed is the presence of the dragon on Liz/s blinds (I believe someone else noticed this as well). The use of the dragon is interesting because of its many different meanings including that of strength power and protection. In the design of "coat of arms" dragons represent valor and protection. They have been described as the most valiant defender of treasure.

This makes me think of the Granolith and Liz's connection to it. Clearly this is a treasure of unknown potential. Even if Liz's knowledge of it is through Future Max she is still largely responsible for Max refusing to give up this Religious icon.

Are there some yet unrevealed prophecy connecting Liz with the Granolth and the mission of the Royal Four?

Zero - there is an excellent synopsis of the Hero's Journey on the "representations and interpretations" thread - page one

StarStruck - I noticed the tattoo discrepency too! Also - about the cave map - I am not sure what order the stones are placed in but the top two points of the "V" are located in the LILITH symbol and the Yin/Yang swirl, the lowest "V" point is in the open "leaky pod" box. The middle two stones are just on the blank space of the map.
And - I am sure Max knows Liz was lying. There is a screencap of his expression floating around - and it is a relieved, genuine smile - not a forced smile. I think that even if the script indicated otherwise, as an actor JB has made a decision to let Max know and trust Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Zero - there is an excellent synopsis of the Hero's Journey on the "representations and interpretations" thread - page one

StarStruck - I noticed the tattoo discrepency too! Also - about the cave map - I am not sure what order the stones are placed in but the top two points of the "V" are located in the LILITH symbol and the Yin/Yang swirl, the lowest "V" point is in the open "leaky pod" box. The middle two stones are just on the blank space of the map.
And - I am sure Max knows Liz was lying. There is a screencap of his expression floating around - and it is a relieved, genuine smile - not a forced smile. I think that even if the script indicated otherwise, as an actor JB has made a decision to let Max know and trust Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Where can I ge a better look of the cave painting. On the screencaps they are just too small and a bit blurred. Maybe I am just looking in the wrong place. I appreciate any help.

I am fascinated by the correlation of the dragon to Liz...! Good job on the research!

I totally got this creepy-children's-choir-in -the-background-feeling when Tess made the statement of the world being at Max's feet on top of the Empire State Building...!

I'm on the road right now, so I am not able to re-watch MITC (thanks to you all for the helpful hint on taping!!). However, the statement that Tess says after Max tells her how loyal she is, yada yada has been bugging me. Tess said something to the effect of, " You must have been some kind of (a great?) husband." She said it as if she were talking in the the third person. I was under the impression that she had first person knowledge of the "love" they had for one another in their previous life per season 1. As I think this scene occurred at the end of the episode, after Max found her, could this support the theory that Tess is not Tess anymore???

Zero...you do a terrific job on the intros..!

m-14

And - I am sure Max knows Liz was lying. There is a screencap of his expression floating around - and it is a relieved, genuine smile - not a forced smile. I think that even if the script indicated otherwise, as an actor JB has made a decision to let Max know and trust Liz.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

StarBox Thank you for this. It helps!

Here's a different RBI note.

Liz and Isabel heldhands. I hope someone already posted this. Why did Isabel need Liz to hold her hand? Was it to help Liz? Was what Liz did really a dreamwalk or was it astro-project? It's hard to tell. But I thought that the handholding was important.

Qfanny-

I totally agree with you that the handholding between Liz and Iz (haha, how cute it that) was/is very important.

I think that what we were not able to see (because of time or cost) was that Iz guided Liz in finding her way, but didn't actually have an active part in Liz's astro projection or whatever it was. They make an obvious point that Iz opened her eyes just before Liz appeared to Max. Maybe in the end Iz was just offering Liz comfort and support? Because of the fact that Liz didn't believe in herself enough?

I haven't come up with a really good reason for this yet, I don't even think that my reasoning up there is really the best, but it's all I can think of right now. I am suffering from sleep deprevation right now, finals in next week, and I have too much caffine in my system right now. I feel like I'm floating. Sorry, OT.

If anyone else has an idea on this please shoot my down. No problem from this RBI on that.

Later All,

I Still Believe & I'll Never Forget

I'm off to read about Heros, and then bed! Night all!

Zero
I Shall Believe

And if Nick is/was the NYers protector, then he would be a shapeshifter--not impossible, just not yet apparent either.

Great Dragon posts, Melode & RockGoddess. Isn't the Dragon a symbol of change and rebirth? I'm thinking the prop guys were thinking of something simple like that, but all that other Venus and 5 stuff just "happened" to be true. Archetypes of Roswell etched on their brains maybe?

Melodius & RedH, about Nasedo knowing Liz was changed: quote:from TLV:MR. HARDING: And is there a young man in the picture?
LIZ: Oh... well...
TESS: Dad!
MR. HARDING: Well, surely a girl as pretty as you must have a boyfriend.
LIZ: That's very sweet of you.
MR. HARDING: So what's he like?
LIZ: He's just... uhhh..... he... he's a guy.
MR. HARDING: What's his name?
TESS: His name is Max.He sure seemed to know something.

And about not trusting Tess: The writers are telling us that Liz and Max have a very special love that is only thwarted by outside obstacles. And by having Tess and Max glomming onto each other, Tess becomes an obstacle (which makes us resent her). So, if the writers want us to not be suspicious of Tess, they will have to change things like they did with the Sheriff.

hand holding was definitely important in the roswell books. they held hands to share their engergy/aura to increase their powers against the ea. when iz was saying that no matter where max was or doing, he would hear liz's voice (feel her presence), it really reminded me of the last series of the roswell books, when liz went to search the consciousness and it was her voice that brought max back to the present. so.. some parts or topics presented were similar to the roswell high books.

WR.

EC2k

ohhhhhhh and i reeeeeeealy like Serena being Liz's human counterpart. Had Zan met the earth-bound human that he had been 'waiting for'? Did he heal her? Is she Serena???? When will Liz and she meet? Only time will tell (if that!)

keep those hypothesies comin' folks - I'm lovin' them!!
jellyhead dreamer

Nacedo's main concern seemed to be that Max mate with Tess. This seemed to be an obsession with him even though it was not mentioned by the mom-o-gram as being of prime interest.

In Max to Max one scene seems a little out of place - when Liz and Nacedo(Max) are at the county fair and they go to the pea pod game. My daughter has always had the impression that he was testing Liz. I am starting to agree with her because I think that scene is more significant than it first appears. Nacedo seems to want to brush over the fact that Liz says that Max has changed her somehow, but I think it made him nervous, especially when Max shows up to save Liz--he hadn't counted on that!

I think that the consummation of a relationship is significant for the podsters ( the reason that Nacedo seemed to want to push Max and Tess).

Any thoughts?

ohhhhhhh and i reeeeeeealy like Serena being Liz's human counterpart. Had Zan met the earth-bound human that he had been 'waiting for'? Did he heal her? Is she Serena???? When will Liz and she meet? Only time will tell (if that!)

keep those hypothesies comin' folks - I'm lovin' them!!
jellyhead dreamer

You guys are great!!! I like this thread!!! Anyway, I read til this far and I'm amazed at you theories. Why don't you guys go and make Roswell instead of JK. Just want to say that I like Tess/Ava and I trusted her, I don't think Tess returned to Roswell (probably Lonnie). Although, I'm strongly want Liz and Max together, I think that Tess and Max can be friends.

quote:Originally posted by Babie Rachie:
Just a question:

Did anyone ever notice (and point out on this board) that Liz was standing directly behind Max and Tess during the Mom-o-gram. (at least that is how I remember it, I only saw it once). When the mother spoke of the "bride - Tess" she did not nesessarly look at Tess. Could she not possibly have looked over at Liz? After all - this was a letter almost a recording for them to find. You never know whether or not Liz is his bride.

Now many wonder then - why did she dissappear. Or why does Tess have Ava. Well what if Max fell in love with an [b]Earthling. We are not sure whether or not the alien ever visited earth before. Possibly they did - seeing as they choose earth to send the royals too - why not some other world? Max may have visited Earth - met Liz - fell in love - taken her back with him. When the world was taken over and the pod-sqaud set to earth, could Liz have been sent too. Not as a alien - but still human. To be reborn like the rest only no double seeing as she is human. That could be the leaking pod. Yet when she was rebord she was more evolved - but not as much as the pod-squad - therefore disapearing in the WO.

Well, what do you think?

<3 Rachel
"If someone loves you, won't they always love you?"

[/B]

I agree, what's wrong with an alien loving a human. Maybe she's changed now, but probably because his power was his. I don't know.

OK, I haven't read through all your thoughts from last night (man, MITC certainly brought out the insights), but.. something's REALLY bugging me! T!!

Granted, T always bugs me, but here's my thoughts. T has always been so different from the Pod Squad. She's much less "humanized" (remember Rath said one group was much more human) than the rest and she's just always given off a weird vibe, imho.

So, I know that T and Ava aren't supposed to be the same (Rath and Mike are VERY different - Iz/Lonnie, etc.), but Ava seems also VERY different than her group. She's MUCH more "humanized" than the rest. I like(d) her.

I know that we've all speculated that Ava could be Liz's counterpart or maybe Ava and T were switched, but here's a thought. Maybe we could have Ava and Max kiss? I mean, my Dreamer side says NO WAY, but really? Don't you think that if Ava really was ONE of the above, then Max would get a lot more answers if he made out with her for a sec?

OK, maybe I'm crazy, but I just feel like Ava fits into Roswell and our Pod Squad so much better than T. Whatcha think!?

It also makes me think of Superman movies where Superman would go to the cave and listen to various crystals to learn things.

How does Liz play into this? She is a science nerd. She was the one who discovered the brust on Brody's equipment when the Skins came to town. She also figured out how it could be interupted. Liz will discover how the granilith operates.

FMax said the granilith had tremendous power and a few modifcations allowed it to send him back. The crystal he used provided a different frequency to alter the granilith's purpose.

I think we are wrong to believe Lonnie in that the granilith is only a religious relic. First, its Lonnie and she can't be trusted as far as I can spit, which is not very far. She wants desperately to return to the Mother planet. She knows that won't happen unless the granilith is turned over. Lonnie may not know Max but she's not stupid enough to take chances. Make the hick from NM think the granilith is unimportant.

Second, FMax has already told Liz it is very powerful. The power it possed was enough to manipulate time. Einstein theorized that if we could travel faster than the speed of light time travel would be possible. Light travels in waves which we represent in frequency.

Third, Courtney told Michael that the granilith could prevent her from dying. Whitaker told Isabel the granilith was needed to extend the Skin's stay on Earth.

Why did no one on the 5 planets no it was missing but Kavar's cohorts? When something that powerful, like a nuclear weapon or spy plane, disappears you don't advertise it. Losing things or having things stolen is a sign of weekness. The 4 ambassadors at the summit talked about attacking each other. They didn't mention attacking Kavar. This could be because they believed Kavar possed the granilith, a weapon of immense power. Keeping the knowledge from the other 4 planets kept Kavar safe and in power.

It doesn't make sense that for 50 years 4 planets would war the way we are lead to believe. What are they fighting for? Power? Peace? Then attack Kavar who is King. You attack the leader who either has power or who is preventing peace. Attacking each other does nothing.

Also, I think relics or any religiously sacred item needs to be seen. That's why they are always on display at churches. It stand to represent the faith. It is a physical manifestation of the faith and the struggles of the faithful. Believers make pilgrimages to relics. If the granilith were only the "Holy Grail" of the home planets not a weapon, people would demand to see it.

Also, the Holy Grail has powerful attributes. People who drink from the Grail are given immortality. Which supports what Courntey and Whitaker said. If Kavar is such a bad leader to allow war to rage for 50 years,do you want him to have immortality.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

I think maybe "relieved" is going a bit too far. I would say completely accepting. Lots of posters have mentioned that Max has to love Liz regardless. I don't know if I'd go that far either, but I think this is maybe halfway in between the two extremes of: Max KNOWS Liz didn't do it vs. Max accepts and embraces Liz no matter what she does. I think his instinct knows something is quirky about her and Kyle, and he feels like it didn't happen, but since she keeps insisting, he isn't sure whether to believe it or not, since he knows her to be an honest person. On the other hand, her coming to him in NY was such an ultimate expression of love and acceptance, kind of like when she found out he was an *alien* (pretty frieky stuff, remember Maria's flip-out?) and accepted him, fell in love with him, protected him. So even though he has all these conflicting things, in his heart, he's able to let it go, probably based on that gift, and be friends. If he knew what she had done, he probably wouldn't have thrown in the "with our friendship" part.

Does any of that make sense? I like to fancy myself a psychological profiler .

NO QUESTION in my mind the creators keep hitting us over the head with that DRAGON on Liz's window it has to have the importance we are giving it on these threads, thanks for all the research guys.

I will say this particular episode seemed more like the old ROSWELL to me although I could do without those touches between Max and Tess loved the bonding that was going on at the end between Max and Isabel, and ofcourse Liz and Max.

I know we are getting the impression that BRODY is a good guy and I like him very much too but did anyone else notice he HOLDS THE MAYO just like RATH??? And what is with this PEPPER JACK--I keep thinking of PEPPERS CAFE--wasn't that guy from the cafe one with a SH on him???

Starbox that SATAN tempting of JC in the desert analogy was great I hadn't really thought of it myself, but I DID notice Tess saying, WELL YOU ARE THE KING OF THE WORLD JUST NOT THIS ONE---FORESHADOWING HIS DOWNFALL????
I also noticed behind Tess at the top of the EMPIRE STATE BUILDING we have a sign ONLY REVEALING I LOVE N. Not NY but I love N hmmmmm?????
NASEDO was my protector, we were very CLOSE and Rath says "HOW CLOSE?" hmmmmm??????
Shapeshifter remember those funny touches between Mr Harding and Tess when Liz was on the phone in TLV talking to Max at Hardings home? Its got me wondering all over again.

When Isabel is telling Michael our parents believe MAX went camping, Michael says so now they believe he is a TREEHUGGER???? So I thought who was he hugging for most of this episode, unfortunately, TESS---and this TREE reference reminds me of the HUSKS being compared to TREES??? Are we saying that Tess is a skin????

LIZPARKERFAN--I have not thrown out the idea that Liz is VIlandra sister to KHIVAR possibly Nasedo of the same race was in love with her but Vilandra betrayed her impulsive dangerous brother for the love of a SKIN---Max who she knew was the best leader and she loved him. Two different races coming together, might be considered too much of a change, not acceptable, Tess was also a skin who loved Max and thought she should be his queen but he loved Vilandra(Liz) and chose to marry her but on their wedding day their enemies saw fit to destroy them. Also it could be that Nasedo of Villandra's people and Tess of Max's people formed a political alliance to undo this mess. Is Tess like Vanessa Whitaker reborn again? Is that why she looked at that picture so strangely?

Also I thought Nikolas who visited with Isabel in the Harvest eppy in her bedroom seemed not so bad, and we saw that Nikolas was a skin because of the husk in that barn BUT---at the end of the episode what if Nasedo(is not dead but using different forms this season?) and he was Nikolas at the end of the Harvest episode? Nikolas became a very horny devil at the end of Harvest and SO REMINDED me of NASEDO Harding the horny toad he is.

Starstruck nice catch on TESS sitting there in the Budhha position-how did I miss that one but significant I think----and I swear there was this strange CLICKING NOISE when Max was holding her face asking if she was alright, when she answered there was this CLICKING NOISE---Please someone go check this out for me? I don't think I am crazy.
When I heard this clicking I thought well is she in a husk or is she a droid? LOL!!!

Starstruck so you noticed the VESSEL business with Kyle too ha!!! I told you something is up with Kyle LOL!!!! BUDDHA BOY!!! hmmmmm?

One more thing about Brody/Larek--when Max called him Brody and he said no my name is Larek---why was LONNIE laughing so much???
Is this all a HOAX?
Now don't get me wrong I like Brody but he does have the PIERCED ear????
And I also noticed when they talked about puppets or vessels I don't know if this is purely an accident but I noticed if you spell out L A R E K you get.....
Lonnie
Ava
Rath
Emissary?
Kyle?
things that make you go hmmmmm!!!!

In regards to some of the discussion about Zan's previous love and the correlation between a M/L connection, I have been wondering about the Max/Zan characters. (By the way, I must have missed something: how did we find out that Max's previous existance was also called Zan?) When we first saw Zan in MTD, he seemed like a punk--as did Rath and Lonnie, not so much Ava, by causing the whole fruit distraction in order to steal thing while grimacing like he had been snorting something. Not very impressive, yet he stands up to Rath and says they aren't going to the summit, it could be a trap. The picture that Ava described of him in her talk with Liz, made it sound like Zan had some very Max-like qualities, like even though the outside was very different and obviously their upbringing was very different, they still shared some core mind sets. (I'm not very good at recalling the actual dialogue.) If this was true, and not just the recollections of someone who had loved Zan, wouldn't this be the only 1 of the dupes that shared any similarity with their corresponding podster? Certainly Rath/Lonnie/Ava don't seem to resemble in any way Michael/Iz/Tess. (Michael is impulsive, but not amoral.) I don't know, it just made me think.

There has been discussion about mistakes Max might have made as the former leader, and I'm kind of wondering where that comes from. Have we really been given info that he made mistakes or is this just speculation? It seems that any time criticism has been directed toward his reign, the source has been highly suspect (from the enemy). The mommogram gives no hint that he was a poor leader or had made mistakes; she calls him beloved. The alien manifested as Brody: the strongest criticism he seemed to come up with was that previous Max (are we calling him Zan as well as Zan, the dupe Max?--this is too confusing) tried to accomplish too much too fast. This might not be a mistake made by Max; perhaps the situation was so fast disintegrating on Twilo that "the cards" were stacked against Max no matter what he had done. Haven't seen the 5th Element, but I really like the idea that Liz could be the secret weapon this time around! (Brody's view also seems very different from Courtney's who made it sound like Max was so ineffectual, that a whole faction developed who thought Michael could have done a better job.) I don't know, I seem to suffer from tunnel vision and am perhaps stuck in not wanting to see weaknesses/mistakes in the various Jason Behr characters! If there is this underlying core of "doing what is right" in Max, Zan the dupe, and the previous ruler Max/Zan, maybe there are no mistakes to correct-just a second chance, with a little human help, to get the job done.

Chica

Well thats how my mind shifts gears always spinning out these ideas LOL!!!

Oh Starbox we who usually agree unfortunately I think that Liz's little head nod and Max's reaction was he was trying very hard to HIDE HIS PAIN(this time) but it is still there and so he added on this half smile trying to hide his obvious pain. That was my take on it anyway. I wish they were not making MAX such a dummie this season, he was so smart last season and he QUESTIONED EVERYTHING and NOW well he is just lost.

I did so love the EVERYTHING song, could not have been a more fitting song for Max and Liz----and how did everyone like the CORNBALL remarks in regards to both Max and Liz---Lonnie says Max is so cornball he will go for the deal to save the world, the greater good, and after Liz hugs Ava she says so cornball LOL!!!!

Unfortunately for me, I have only taped the last two episodes, due to my techical ineptitude . So this is going on memory.

The Granolith, as I recall, was a cone (V), resting on a smaller, upside-down cone (V). Maybe this has some significance, like the fact that the fate of the five planets rests on something small, through the slim thread of the one bottom planet. Also, when they plug the crystal in, it goes into the bottom. So maybe the small thing (I'm thinking Liz) is necessary to be a conductor of power, or something to create change, or something. This sounds to me a little like reaching, but perhaps possible. Any thoughts?

Oh and why was NYPD BLUE featured so much in this eppy, I kept expecting to see Alex somewhere LOL.

Does anyone have an idea as to why we saw the word TRACK 2 behind TESS?

NASEDO was my protector, we were very CLOSE and Rath says "HOW CLOSE?" hmmmmm??????
Shapeshifter remember those funny touches between Mr Harding and Tess when Liz was on the phone in TLV talking to Max at Hardings home? Its got me wondering all over again.
hmmmmm?

Oh yeah - I have been meaning to post this observation.
This is yet ANOTHER example of Tess LYING.
When she tells Rath and Lonnie that Nasedo "was my protector - we were very close".
Last season - two seperate times she told M/M/I that she and Nasedo were NEVER close - that he never let her get near him.

Another thing - some of you who are believing Tess is a good guy are saying how consistently supportive she has been of Max - if I remember correctly in EOTW she said "Max Evans can go to HELL for all I care". I think her sugary-sweetness to him is 100% an act.

Also another nasty little thing I noticed going over transcripts. When Isabel comes to visit Tess/Mr Harding - Tess tells her "you shouldnt be lifting heavy things". Now - that is something you ONLY say to pregnant women/girls. She was obviously playing on Isabel's fear. And how would she even know Isabel was worried??? Why - she planted the pregnancy Tess-o-visions.
Just thought I would throw that little bit of Tess evil out. If any of you have ever been in a situation where you were worried about possibly being pregnant - you KNOW how awful it would be for someone to "play" on those fears.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

And there's a wheel between Lonnie and Max in MTD. Any scholars know what a wheel stands for? Besides the obvious wheel of time.

Starbox can you please check out the CLICKING NOISE I hear when Max finds Tess sitting BUDHHA style? It could be important.

Does any of that make sense? I like to fancy myself a psychological profiler .

Azcat - here is the screencap of the smile.
I have rewatched the ending about a zillion times - here is my take on it.
Max suspects (has always suspected) that Liz is hiding something. He asks her one last time - to confirm to himslef that he is right - and she is lying about Kyle. I think - when you watch the scene - that you can tell that Max is nervous about hearing her answer.
When she can not give him a straight answer - he KNOWS she did NOT sleep with Kyle. He is dissapointed/hurt that she cant tell him the truth yet - but is also relieved that his instinct was right. I think he knows that since she was right about the granolith - that there must be a reason that she has to hide the whole truth.

This smile just does not look to me like the smile of a guy that has just believed that the love of his life slept with another guy.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Good point, starbox. I was looking at the screencaps of EOTW, and when Max sees Liz and Kyle together, he doesn't look like he believes it then either. More like, okay guys, what the heck are you playing at. Again, I don't have the video, so I could just be missing the betrayed look. Gr.

But, okay, it does make sense that he could just be so pissed off this whole time because she was lying about her feelings. My hub gets po'd when I tell him everything's fine and it isn't, etc. So maybe you're right.

Wow GraceKel, your creative juices are sure flowing. Here's my two cents on track 2. I thought it applied to the dupes indicating them as a secondary path/option.

This is really well thought out on the part of many here...

Me too! I completely got the feeling of Season 1 from MITC!!! Love it..

quote:
I know we are getting the impression that BRODY is a good guy and I like him very much too but did anyone else notice he HOLDS THE MAYO just like RATH??? And what is with this PEPPER JACK--I keep thinking of PEPPERS CAFE--wasn't that guy from the cafe one with a SH on him???

I have to say that there's something up with Brody. I don't know if I'm convinced that he's evil or out to hurt any of the Pod Squad, but it seems TOO coincidental that...
1) He buys the UFO where Max (the king) works,
2) He has a crush on Maria who's the ex of Mike (the second in command),
3) He's weening his way into our Pod Squad (and clan) one day at a time.

The question is.. will Max tell Maria about the Summit and Brody/Larek? Will Max tell Brody about the Summit and Brody/Larek? What kind of effect will Brody NOW have in that he can pretty much "sense" when it's about to happen (weird dreams, time lapse) - could he be the key to the Pod Squad KNOWING when Khivar is about to arrive!?

quote:Originally posted by StarBox:

This smile just does not look to me like the smile of a guy that has just believed that the love of his life slept with another guy.

I agree! It looks like the *smile* that says, "yeah, I know you didn't really sleep with him, but you must have your reasons for not telling me and I'll let you tell me in time." It does to me anyway.

This is pure speculation... have y'all ever heard that myth that if you die in your dreams, you *really* die. Well I don't believe it myself but what if we use it in this circumstance. I don't know what happens to the *alien* while it's occupying a human host... presumedly it *might* be in a dreamlike state on Twilo (or wherever), it's *consciousness* (?) is somewhere else. Granted, big presumption. We don't really know anything about alien powers - however we did see Liz possibly do something similar with that astro-projection she did. She just didn't occupy another body while doing it? (possibly, if she did or learns how, she'll be able to speak to someone during the *projecting*)

Here's the alien in this *dreamlike* state on Twilo, in a human body on Earth. What if Khivar *leaped* into Liz, Max discovers somehow that aliens are *vulnerable* while in the human bodies (they can die, or at least their *psyche* does, hence they go braindead on Twilo?)... Max can kill Khivar now - ending the conflict and possibly "his duty" - but he'd have to kill Liz to do it? Ah the torture

quote:Originally posted by chica:
By the way, I must have missed something: how did we find out that Max's previous existance was also called Zan?

I believe Max makes a reference to this when he walks into the summit... he says to the council (something on the lines), "Zan was the name of my previous self" or something? Of course, I could totally be slaughtering the line. Although I'm pretty sure Max refers to his proto-self as "Zan".

quote:The picture that Ava described of him [Zan] in her talk with Liz, made it sound like Zan had some very Max-like qualities, like even though the outside was very different and obviously their upbringing was very different, they still shared some core mind sets... If this was true, and not just the recollections of someone who had loved Zan, wouldn't this be the only 1 of the dupes that shared any similarity with their corresponding podster?

This is pure speculation... but from the way Ava did describe Zan I did get the impression Zan - of all the Dupes - was similar the most similar to at least one of the Ros podsters. However, I do believe that ALL the podsters had things in common simply from being (arguably) based from the same *essences* and basic programming.

I think the Dupes programming was either incomplete or corrupted. They weren't supposed to remember their past lives at all, but they all seemingly did (unless someone told them, which is also a possibility, yet they say they *remember* things?). The Dupes were further seemingly *corrupted* by their environment ... apparently not the most stellar exposure to "human nature". Not dissing NYC, but what I know about it, there are *definitely* some parts where kids' futures can more or less be *set in stone* of the bad way - especially if they don't have the right or any [positive] mentors.

While the Ros podsters (w/ the exception of Michael, initially) - with the same essences and basic (yet completed) programming - had a very positive upbrining (good exposure to human nature), of which they were nurtured. Michael did have a rather negative upbringing, but he also had Max/Isabel w/ a very positive one to kind of *balance* him out. Then Mike met Maria with whom I thought he became more balanced (Candygirl coming out now ). There was also Liz (at least for Max for a long period of time) influencing *the balance*, also eventually Alex.

Do I believe Max/Mi/I/T might have ended up like Z/R/L/A if the environments were reversed? Possibly, but since I believe M/Mi/I/T got the *full* programming and weren't *the defectives*, then I still feel there's a chance M/Mi/I/T even in the Dupes environment, probably wouldn't have ended up like Z/R/L/A. The Ros podsters *don't* remember the past lives (apparently with the exception of Tess?)... they wouldn't have ended up the same. While the Dupes remember the past lives, combined with their negative environment and *defectiveness*, they were corrupted (but I didn't feel Ava was corrupted to the degree Rath/Lonnie were?). The Young Bride is seemingly always the *exception* or *odd one out*.... Why?

quote:Have we really been given info that he made mistakes or is this just speculation? It seems that any time criticism has been directed toward his reign, the source has been highly suspect (from the enemy). The mommogram gives no hint that he was a poor leader or had made mistakes; she calls him beloved.

You're right chica that we probably shouldn't be basing too much speculation on the word of the (apparent) "enemy", but are we to believe *Mom* either? This is a rather brash statement, but I'm sure Hitler was "beloved" also by at least a couple (misguided, psychotic, blind, brainwashed) people (particularly his mother). Was Mom being biased because these are *her children* or was she being forthright because she was *the Queen*? We don't know who to believe at the moment.

Melodious

putting it that way... i see your point. i think that being in nyc was good for max. he has been carrying the weight of knowledge that he is the leader and can't fathom what to do about it. even in the beginning of MITC he was nervous and felt that he could not pull it off. i guess you can say that he's being a bit selfish in that he is trying to deal w/ being the leader.

after he's learned that he truly is the king, it's almost like he's matured. he's thinking things through. when he confronted lonnie/iz in MTD, of course he was hurt and it prompted him to go to nyc. after he gets back, he tells iz that she's his sister and that he loves her. maybe he's realized that he was "duped" into going to nyc, but despite the hurt he felt about the lies, he's willing to compromise and work things out. the first step was w/ iz. i think the next will be w/ liz and now i think that he has an idea that liz is lying but for reasons that he will eventually find out in good time. maybe then he'll have a heart to heart talk w/ mikey g. basically, instead of lashing out, he's trying to learn patience and work things out. ....learning to trust those that he should trust and maybe learning that he doesn't have to solve things on his own, but rather together.

just my take.

I mean, they knew the original names of the group - how!?

As the R.B.I. creed goes: "Leave no stone unturned" Is it just me or does the color of light coming from the granolith is the same kind of color that TicTac gives off when he shapeshiftes?

Oh...I just thought of something. Do you think Rath and Lonnie were the two shooters at the crashdown?
Here a list of the possible people to be the shooters.
1) TicTac and Harding
2) Rath and Lonnie
3) FMax and FMichael (I don't know about this one)
4) Tess and Harding
5) Khivar and Nicholas (I think Nicholas is a different kind of skin)

Why don't the other aliens from the other four planets help out the pod squad? Okay if Max had to marry Tess, Tess being a skin, to unite the skins and the aliens. What interest of this be to the other planets? Or maybe it's just all about the granolith.

If I were Khivar I wouldn't trust Nicholas. Nicholas seems to have his own agenda. And I think that Khivar doesn't know about Nicholas telling the other leaders that he doesn't have the granolith. I still think that Grant is Khivar.

Obviously the pod squad didn't take Topolsky seriosly when she said "trust no one" I think Topolsky knew about Tess/Harding that probably why she said that. As for Courtney and the whole Michael worshippers thing, Courtney without a doubt might not have been out to hurt the pod squad, but I think she was out of power. That particular group of skins know that Michael is easier to control than Max, so they try to get Michael on the throne. Notice that when Max puts his foot down there is no more talk.

Bye for now

The question is.. will Max tell Maria about the Summit and Brody/Larek? Will Max tell Brody about the Summit and Brody/Larek? What kind of effect will Brody NOW have in that he can pretty much "sense" when it's about to happen (weird dreams, time lapse) - could he be the key to the Pod Squad KNOWING when Khivar is about to arrive!?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

VERY interesting!

Your thoughts have made me wonder if Larek isn't using Brody's body as a temp, but if he actually is Brody full-time. Maybe the alien beeper he has really is his, and the abduction thing is just a cover.
He told Maria that he was affraid he was going to be abducted again because he knew he was going to be going to NY soon, and he wanted to be sure there would be no suspicions. This idea would explain the pepper jack cravings.

But lets also remember that Larek is from another planet, and most likely is another type of alien.

I don't think he is bad.

My new theory is...

Larek said that he and Max were close, that they grew up together, well maybe Larek had a sister.

What if Max had an "arranged Marriage" planned since birth. (To Tess/Ava?)

But that Max fell in love with Larek's sister (Liz?) {and maybe he saved her life once too}

What if Max tried to back out of the marriage to Tess, and announced that he wanted to marry Liz.

Maybe the union between Max's and Liz's people outraged Kavar and his people, and this is what started the war.

(of course I'm using their earth names here to make it less confusing, when I say Liz-I mean one of her ancestors.)

I know some of you don't think that that Liz could be an alien (or part) because she vanished in WO, but courtney only says that humans can't live in multiple times. Maybe Lareks people are more human like than the others. Or better yet...what if Lareks people colanated on earth thousands of years ago and humans are all decendents of Lareks people?

Anyway.. I think that has SERIOUS significance - anyone know!?!

Anyway.. I think that has SERIOUS significance - anyone know!?!

He says something like...

That's what I tried telling you, change wasn't going to come over night, but you wouldn't listen...Oh what's the point, thats ancient history now.

Next step: friendship, understanding and acceptance, without knowing what she did (both parts of what she did and didn't do). The coming together will not be the same if it happens because he knows she didn't do anything. I'll be disappointed. I think the return will be sweeter because they'll both know that their love is boundless and unconditional because they passed this test of trust.

It would also support the Romeo and Juliet referances, wouldn't it? Two lovers whoes families/followers won't let them be together.

Someone else asked this question before..."Why did they pick earth?" to send the pods to.

They must have come here before, where would they have gotten the "human genetic material" to create the podsters in the first place?

The skins really hate earth/earthlings (this is especially obvious after I read Witicker's Journal). Maybe this extends to their hatered of Larek's people (going on the idea here that humans and Larek's people are linked)

I'll have to go back and watch the scene again...but did that lady at the summit say that Kavar attacked Larek first?

what if the writers are going to use this to make a racial statement?

What if Liz is sapose to be the leader of Larek's planet? Does the Dragon philosophies still apply?

The other thing was when Max was talking to Larek after he has refused the "offer". It was brought up somewhere here that Prince Zan in former life may have been studying Earth as some kind of model. Well, Larek says (loosely quoting) that he tried to tell Zan that the change couldn't be effected so quickly, "...but you just kept - Oh, what's the point. That's all ancient history now."

WHAT did Zan keep doing? Maybe going to Earth?

from thread 18

Oh, in MITC when they show the pods where the dupes came out of, there were four pods. If you can play the episode very slowly you'll barely see it. And who was the dupes protector? Nasedo was supposedly the originals pods protector that we know of.

Anything is possible in Roswell.
I LOVE ROSWELLLL!!!!!!:smile:

I am not going to get my tape out so this will not be verbatum.

Larek talks about how difficult it was to watch Max(Zan) fall...how he was trying to change too much too fast...to make a better world for his people. Then says it is ancient history and (here's what bothers me) IT WOULD BE A SHAME TO SEE HISTORY REPEAT ITSELF.

Well, hello...how about explaining what he did wrong. Maybe this lead will him in the right direction. How in the world can someone be expected to lead under these conditions?

Am I alonein saying all these moments of imcomplete information is driving me crazy? It does not not make sense that Max would leave the conversation at this.

What is Max repeating? Being with Tess? Not handing over the Granolith? Staying away from his true love? Ahh the agony I need some answers...February is long way!

Sorry about the momentary insanity. Please excuse me while regain my composure.

The other thing was when Max was talking to Larek after he has refused the "offer". It was brought up somewhere here that Prince Zan in former life may have been studying Earth as some kind of model. Well, Larek says (loosely quoting) that he tried to tell Zan that the change couldn't be effected so quickly, "...but you just kept - Oh, what's the point. That's all ancient history now."

WHAT did Zan keep doing? Maybe going to Earth?

from thread 18

OOOooOooo! That ties in the great theory someone had about the former Zan visiting Earth and falling in love with GC, then cloning himself to become the now-a-day-Max and Liz would be the offspring!

Maybe he couldn't stay away from her!?

[B]Well, Larek says (loosely quoting) that he tried to tell Zan that the change couldn't be effected so quickly, "...but you just kept - Oh, what's the point. That's all ancient history now."

WHAT did Zan keep doing? Maybe going to Earth?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
Maybe...

or maybe the change was to change people's minds, to allow them to accept that Larek's people were equals and not 2nd class or slaves.

Maybe King Zan kept seeing *Liz*, or kept pushing the people to except his beliefs when they weren't ready.

maybe a little remenisent of the civil war?

but I'm just throwing out ideas here.

That seems to be an underlying theme - let's not have history repeat itself yet NO ONE is willing to explain how to make that happen (or not happen )!!

If Courtney could have simply told Mikey G what had happened, then *bam* no history repeating! If FM could have simply sat with Liz and told her what had happened, then *bam* no history repeating! If Ava could have simply sat with the Pod Squad and told them what happened, then *bam* no history repeating! If Brody/Larek could have simply sat with Max/Zan and told him what had happened, then, yep, you guessed it - no history repeating!!

It's as if everyone wants to the future to be different than the past, but no one is willing to give up the necessary information!!

Maybe he couldn't stay away from her!?

but, ugh - wouldn't that make them sort of related?

Hmmm.. yeah, I guess it would. Yeeeek.

There's just something strange and not right about the MTD/MITC episodes. I am not talking about Liz's change either. I can't put my finger on it, but it seems to me that someone has convinently staged every event that has happened in the show. The brainwash summit, the fact Lonnie/Rath tricked Max to NY, Isabel not be able to connect with Max (when her kinsmen can across space), Ava in Roswell, Lonnie's disloyality to her own group, much less the NM4.... This is theoritical only, but I think someone in Roswell is playing the "crew" like puppets. Where's Grant been? Perhaps, K'var?

Thanks, Melodious, for the clarification. Now I remember that line but I had taken it to mean that while Max was acknowledging that the invitation had been extended to his counterpart: Zan of the dupes, he was setting the record straight that now he was Max Evans.

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
You're right chica that we probably shouldn't be basing too much speculation on the word of the (apparent) "enemy", but are we to believe *Mom* either? This is a rather brash statement, but I'm sure Hitler was "beloved" also by at least a couple (misguided, psychotic, blind, brainwashed) people (particularly his mother). Was Mom being biased because these are *her children* or was she being forthright because she was *the Queen*? We don't know who to believe at the moment.

I agree that the mommogram is not enough evidence as I have had my own speculations if it was genuine or "Tess tampered". It is just that that along with the other pieces of evidence, I'm still not convinced that Max was a poor ruler. The Brody criticism to me isn't necessarily a weakness/mistake.

And Melodious, enjoyed your defective podster discussion--I agree!

Chica

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
A friend of mine who is VERY spoiled said she read on the spoiler board that Max's little "antennae" gesture was all JB. He *adlibbed* it per se.
Ooo, if that's true, it's even cuter now.

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
I suppose that sounded pretty negative where Tess is concerned.
You're not being negative at all. I tend to be a little gullible sometimes. These are all just opinions anyway. I'll never be called a Hussy either though.

quote:Originally posted by Roswellrox:
I know we've all talked before about how Liz and Maria's friendship this season has been lacking the 17-year-old feeling of friends no matter what and sweet little moments of concern and understanding, well there it was! Liz and Maria are back, or at least they were for that one scene. Now all the writers have to do is not screw it up again!

Hi Roswellrox! Nice to see you again. You're not the only one who has a hard time keeping up with the thread lately. I loved that scene with Liz and Maria. It was so nice to see them back to normal. I'd love to hear what your take is on Tess.

quote:Originally posted by azcat:
------Originally posted by Indygal:
Nesedo said in WR that their powers were those of advanced humans. Perhaps, Max just accelerated Liz's cells during the healing that transformed them to an advanced human stage. Maybe we're not looking at "alien" powers at all, just those of advanced human development.------
Something that might back up this viewpoint is that the emissary uses only his bare hand to access the seal on Max's brain. The body is just a regular human body. Therefore, the power to do this came from the same brain, etc., as any other human. Perhaps the trick is just in knowing how to access it.
Thanks for bringing up the emissary. Great idea!

quote:Originally posted by huggybehr:
What if the dupes were so reluctant to talk because they assassinated their protector (seems like the sort of thing they'd do, whether they had a reason or not), but he didn't die and now needs the pills to be able to shapeshift because of his injuries? As for his whereabouts, your guess is as good as mine.
That is definitely a possibility. Hmmm... extra sugar to help his injuries.

quote:Originally posted by bluecornmoon:
If Zan healed somebody (as Ava seemed to imply and Lannie referred to in MTD),
I think I must have missed this. Could you tell me which lines or scenes refer to this?

Thanks Zero!

Hi Starstruck!

quote:Originally posted by Rockgoddess:
Crystals have a specific frequency that impact how something work.

Also, the Holy Grail has powerful attributes. People who drink from the Grail are given immortality. Which supports what Courntey and Whitaker said.
Thanks for the insightful post on crystals. That made a lot of sense.
Also, thanks for mentioning the attributes of the Holy Grail. I meant to post the same thought on the last thread.

quote:Originally posted by Starbox:
When she tells Rath and Lonnie that Nasedo "was my protector - we were very close".
Last season - two seperate times she told M/M/I that she and Nasedo were NEVER close - that he never let her get near him.
Ack! You guys are way too good at proving me wrong. See, someone has to keep my gullibility in check!
quote:ginally posted by StarBox:
Also another nasty little thing I noticed going over transcripts. When Isabel comes to visit Tess/Mr Harding - Tess tells her "you shouldnt be lifting heavy things". Now - that is something you ONLY say to pregnant women/girls. She was obviously playing on Isabel's fear. And how would she even know Isabel was worried??? Why - she planted the pregnancy Tess-o-visions.
Just thought I would throw that little bit of Tess evil out. If any of you have ever been in a situation where you were worried about possibly being pregnant - you KNOW how awful it would be for someone to "play" on those fears.
I never even noticed that last season.

Okay, a few thoughts:
Last night my husband watched MitC for the first time (he insists on watching Monday night football on Mondays, can you imagine? ). Well, anyway, I love to see his reaction to episodes, because he always sees different things than I do. I never tell him anything about the ep in advance, nor what we discuss on this thread. And he had two totally opposite thougthts than I did. And they mirrored a number of yours.

1. About the scene where Max finds Tess all alone and Rath and Lonnie have disappeared, the first thing that comes out of his mouth is "That's not Tess, it's Lonnie!" And I was like "WOW, you really think that. Some people on the thread thought the exact same thing."

2. About the end scene where Max confronts Liz with the Kyle question, my husband says, "He knows she didn't sleep with him. It is written all over his face." Well, that gave me a lot of hope. I always appreciate his point of view as to what is going on inside Max's brain. I think I'm too wrapped up in how Liz is feeling and I can't always grasp what is going on in Max's male brain.

Plus one more funny tidbit from my husband. After watching EotW. He stands up from the couch and says, "Too bad they're not like Highlanders, they could have just chopped off Tess's head to get her powers." He said it with such a straight face. I couldn't stop laughing. He knows just what to say to make me laugh after that tearjerker of an episode.

Talk to you guys later.

To all newbies: PLEASE remember... NO SPOILERS on this thread. Thanks.

Whew! Sorry that was so long.

Even in MIC, how long was Ava in Roswell? She tells everyone Liz is changed and 10 minutes later everyone is wishing Ava happy trails. It is so unlike Liz to not look into things.

Someone said that maybe Brody was faking the aductions and that he is in fact Larek on Earth. I like that idea. It explains a lot about Brody, like his beacon. At the end of season 1, we see someone holding a beacon when it goes off. No one gets pushed around like what happened to Michael. It makes sense that Brody would have to know how to use the beacon to get it to operate differently.

I think the beacon must have as its default mode to wait for the signal. The signal only comes after the Royal 4 set it off? Since they have no way to know it must always be listening/waiting for the signal.

That doesn't mean it can't have other uses. However, it would have to be manually changed to function as anything other than alien radar. If Brody just picked it up at a rumage sale, how was it able to blow Michael across the room.

Maybe now that the signal has been found and Brody/Larek has located its origination point, he doesn't need it to operate on the default mode. Brody/Larek can change it for a defensive purpose.

If Brody is Larek, it would be dangerous for him to be caught on Earth let alone with the Royal 4. Larek's past friendship with Zan and obvious affinity for want Zan was trying to do (although Zan was moving too fast)would cause Kavar to be suspicious of him.

Why would Larek have to warn Brody he was taking his body? He wouldn't. Larek would just take it. However, Brody/Larek would need a cover story for his disapearance from Roswell. I don't think the summit participants knew what day it would happen so Brody would have to have an open ended escuse. I'll be abducted soon.

When Max calls Larek Brody, Larek identifies himself in a way that reminds me of how identical twins correct you when you call them by the wrong name. How would Larek know anything about Brody if he wasn't Brody. Wouldn't Larek ask, Do you know this body, and say what a coincidence. but its not a coincidence.

I realize this doesn't have anything to do with Liz but this is where I got the idea.

Someone said that maybe Brody was faking the aductions and that he is in fact Larek on Earth. I like that idea. It explains a lot about Brody,

Why would Larek have to warn Brody he was taking his body? He wouldn't. Larek would just take it. However, Brody/Larek would need a cover story for his disapearance from Roswell. I don't think the summit participants knew what day it would happen so Brody would have to have an open ended escuse. I'll be abducted soon.

When Max calls Larek Brody, Larek identifies himself in a way that reminds me of how identical twins correct you when you call them by the wrong name. How would Larek know anything about Brody if he wasn't Brody. Wouldn't Larek ask, Do you know this body, and say what a coincidence. but its not a coincidence.
[/B]

I'm glad to know that someone liked my idea,
THANK YOU

If Larek wasn't Brody, why wouldn't he just get a body from the temp agency? Why would he go through the trouble of posessing a body and traveling all the way from NM to NY, especially if it uses so much of their resources?

Obviously Larek is Brody full-time, I'm almost positive!

Some great thinking going on lately.

Qfanny: You are so right about things being a little strange. I have had my suspicions from the first episode.
I keep getting the feeling that the writers are not talking to each other and each episode seems to be on a different course. Yes that famous line we all have been using, NO CONTINUITY. But then I thought, what if this is done on purpose. Maybe what Courtney said is are big clue for the reasons we are all so lost.
Here is the conversation from WO.

COURTNEY: Time exists in multiple subset dimensions on our planet. Nicholas must have a technology to impose one or more of these here.

ISABEL: Speak English.

COURTNEY: It's like being on Pacific and Eastern and Central and Mountain time all at once. Human bodies can't function. They simply disappear.

LIZ: To where? Where are our parents, our friends...Alex? Where is everyone? Are they dead? Wha...

MARIA: Water's getting low.

COURTNEY: Somewhere! Another dimension, another plane of existence! I don't know where! They seem to have just...shifted

The characters not only act different but they look different. These are the comments that have been posted. Liz's, Maria's and Michaels hair is different on each ep, the girls are dressing differently, Max looks younger, he looks older. What happened to Liz and Maria's friendship, first it's up then it's down? Max is nice to Liz and then he is angry with her again. So what do you think RBI's, is this the ROSWELL WRITERS telling us that things are different in Roswell, are we watching another dimension, another plane of existence on each episode?

Evid

I second that. He looks at Maria with such adoration. Previously these types of glances were reserved for Liz and Max.

When Maria went to place Brody's order was she looking back towards him? I need to go back and review the tape. I thought she had a really sweet expression when she turned her head.

I also really like how Maria seems to be more at ease with Brody. As much as I like Micheal their relationship was rarely level and usually tense.

HEY WE NEED A SMILEY FACE TO REPRESENT BRODY!

I don't think he is an enemy either.
And I am NOT suggesting that he is using Brody's body, but that he physically is Brody.
I think that when Larek said at the summit the bit about only being able to use the bodies for 20 min. he was trying to make sure the other reps. (including Max) didn't suspect that he actually was here on earth.
It must be a secret that only the other leaders from his planet know about.

Right now I think that he is here to protect someone(s) possibley a relative, as I have mentioned before. Maybe that is what will be revealed in "We are Family" ep.

[B]Apologies in advance for this long post - I know that you are going to think I have WAY too much time on my hands :-) - but a while back I noticed a pattern of scenes of Liz looking in mirrors - I have been collecting them and trying to tie them together.
I think they fit very nicely with the Hero Journey theme.
Quick note on the symbolisim of the mirror - looking into a mirror represents the search for truth/self actualization.

Okay here goes - this first screencap is from the Sexual Healing. It is not Liz looking in a mirror - but notice the sun mirror on the wall with the "V" reflected in it. This is a MIRROR - it doesnt always have a "V" in it :-) One of my "pet" theories is that the sun is a symbol of Max (he also has a similar sun hanging in his house). I just love this picture - with it's "V" and it's sun mirror - so I HAD to post it. :-)

And now - for Liz's hero journey
1)Call to Adventure
Liz in Pilot - loking into a mirror after her healing.

2)Into the Labrynith
Sexual healing

3) Belly of The Beast
Max to the Max

4) Sacrifice
End of the World


5)Return/Rebirth
Max In The City

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Azcat - congrats on the "fan" status :-)

GraceKel - I am going to rewatch the Tess scene tonight and listen for clicking!

Redhawk - My husband said the same thing about Tess not being Tess - maybe its a "guy" thing. I was so wrapped up in Liz having powers that I didnt pay much attention to it until Steph brought it up on the board.

Zero - I forgot to say WELCOME BACK - hope Disney was wonderful :-) :-)

Brody/Larek - I think both of them (whether they are the same or not) are going to be "allies". FINALLY!!! the kids NEED someone else on their side! Especially someone with knowledge/resources.
And I agree with GraceKel - the UFO center is being shown as a place of refuge.

And now - my totally off the wall theory - I think Tic-Tac is..........AVA.
I get the feeling that Ava was not always "with" the dupes - just as our Tess was a late arrival. The dialouge between her and Lonnie in the car has always bugged me - where Lonnie says "WHO ARE YOU? Why are you still living and breathing?"
Anyway - still working on the logistics of this one.

**StarBox**
mythologist,dreamer

This is definitely not proof, but something that struck me as being wrong the moment Larek said it:

At the summit, Larek gives Max this spiel about him (Zan) not being cautious enough as a leader on their home world. Then Larek gives Max 20 minutes to think about take K'var's ridiculous offer to return to Twilo. When Max declines, Larek seems disappointed, even a little threatening with the "hate to see the same mistakes happening" bit (or whatever it was). Did anyone else think this seemed off a bit?

Max saw Liz across the street. Therefore, he observed Liz. From what I could tell, I think other's around Liz could see her too. Did that car drive around her? An astro-projection would be a different power for Liz to have that would set her apart. It's also a "mental" ability that only the females seem to have... Therefore, Liz did do the "trick" (Ouch, that hurts). Iz must of have helped her by guiding her energy.

Scary!

If Liz is the Guardian of the Granolith, the key Max needs to learn its secrets and operate it, can you imagine what will happen when she visits the pod chamber and enters it? I think that'll tell us a lot of her future role with it. It may recognize her and either start humming, lighting up or beeping! They may not be able to do anything about it because we have much to learn or it may be attributed to Max and her energies "charging up" but... it'll be interesting to watch!

I luv ROSWELL
all because of Liz and Max!!

Some of these topics might be a little old, but this is the first time today that I had the time to get on the boards. I hate it when life/work gets in the way of Roswell!

quote:Originally posted by StephStephSteph:
OOOooOooo! That ties in the great theory someone had about the former Zan visiting Earth and falling in love with GC, then cloning himself to become the now-a-day-Max and Liz would be the offspring!

Maybe he couldn't stay away from her!?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by azcat:
[B]
but, ugh - wouldn't that make them sort of related?

Maybe the Zan/Max predecessor was called back to Planet Twilo before him and GC/Liz's Descendant could start a family.

quote:Originally posted by Melodious1:
Here's the alien in this *dreamlike* state on Twilo, in a human body on Earth. What if Khivar *leaped* into Liz, Max discovers somehow that aliens are *vulnerable* while in the human bodies (they can die, or at least their *psyche* does, hence they go braindead on Twilo?)... Max can kill Khivar now - ending the conflict and possibly "his duty" - but he'd have to kill Liz to do it? Ah the torture

Melodious

Oh Star I too noticed that SUN MIRROR and that now the V has disappeared from it I think it left after EOTW eppy when Liz changed the future???? It had better return real soon. Incredible ideas about the mirrors I had never thought of that.

I have always thought there was something freaky about that mirror in the back of the crashdown though because of the angles it seems to pick up are different all the time--cannot explain this.

Right, but I think that Ava was definitely lowest in the pecking order of the NY4. She didn't seem to have any powers at all! Notice how grateful Ava was for any expression of kindliness. Also notice how Max was "so Zan". Rath and Lonnie were probably reacting to Tess as if she were Ava, and could be abused for fun. (Bullying people is a sign of being power-hungry.)

wow, great thoughts. i've totally given up staying in lurkdom on this thread. you're all too good.
we know that nasedo and tess are linked, what if it wasn't by coincidence? what if they're meant to be a pair, and AVA and TICTAC are meant to be a pair? then nasedo/tess were meant to be with the less-human dupes, and ava/tictac with the pod squad?

Max saw Liz across the street. Therefore, he observed Liz. From what I could tell, I think other's around Liz could see her too. Did that car drive around her? An astro-projection would be a different power for Liz to have that would set her apart. It's also a "mental" ability that only the females seem to have... Therefore, Liz did do the "trick" (Ouch, that hurts). Iz must of have helped her by guiding her energy.

Scary!

I hate to prove you wrong, but didn't Is. dreamwalk Max in WR and she told him to get pierce alone in the room, making her more than just an observer. Didn't Is also dreamwalk Maria in Monsters :

MARIA: What are you doing here?

ISABEL: I just thought we should talk, and since we can't seem to do it when we're awake, I thought I'd visit you in your dreams.

MARIA: What do you mean visit me?

ISABEL: I'm not really a part of your dream. I can't change it or anything. I just wanted to see what you were thinking. (ISABEL notices MICHAEL sitting at a table, dressed in a tuxedo.) Interesting.

So who knows what kind of power Liz has.

It's interesting that you mention that only the women have the mental powers. Imediately I thought of Grandma Claudia...What if we were all wrong, it wasn't Max, or even Liz that allowed GC to have a final conversation, But maybe it was GC all on her own, sensing Liz's presence in the room and using all her remaining strength to "dreamwalk" "astroproject" what ever you want to call it. And that is why she dies immediately after.

Possible?

You have a point I am wiccan so one of the things we beilive in is astro projecting and when one has astro projected they cannot speak because their body and therefore their physical attrubutes that connect between the mind(thought) and the body(speech) are usually comotose so therefore people cannot here people who astro project because they are in a comotose like state and so are the motor functions of speech and touch because theya are not physically there. Just thought I would add my two cents though I would like Liz to be more powerful than that.

Ursa

Ursa

he;s taken BY the love of his life lIZ!!

**StarBox**
mythologist,dreamer

Very impressive. I sometimes think that the theories on this board are more exciting than what the writers come up with. There is definitely something strange about AVA and I doubt we've seen the last of her. The 3 pods(not 4) in the sewer seem to suggest that one of them was late in arriving---similar to the Tess situation.

Also, I am inclined to agree with the astral-projection theory that someone mentioned. What made that situation so unique was that Max was awake when it happened. If he wasn't dreaming, how could it be a dreamwalk?

I apologize if this topic has been already covered, but what does everyone think about the possiblity of Kyle having powers too? Max saved both of them. The only difference I can see is that Liz had partial consciousness during her healing. And didn't Max ask her to look into his eyes? I am wondering too if the Buddhism that Kyle is practicing will play a role in future episodes. What if during a deep meditation Kyle accidently enters into a dreamwalk? Now wouldn't that be interesting.

Scooby

Just gonna add my $.02, I think that track 2 could refer to picking the path that leads to Tess. Probably not a good idea if the speculation on history repeating itself... so Track 1, AND BEST CHOICE, would be Liz?!

If Courtney could have simply told Mikey G what had happened, then *bam* no history repeating! If FM could have simply sat with Liz and told her what had happened, then *bam* no history repeating! If Ava could have simply sat with the Pod Squad and told them what happened, then *bam* no history repeating! If Brody/Larek could have simply sat with Max/Zan and told him what had happened, then, yep, you guessed it - no history repeating!!

It's as if everyone wants to the future to be different than the past, but no one is willing to give up the necessary information!!

I totally agree!! I think that we might get someone else bring up history and how it shouldn't repeat itself. I only hope this person ( ) sheds some light on what exactly happened! Either that or he/she might leave the issue hanging like the rest

I totally agree about the gagging thing but I'm not so sure about the falling in love thing. She still seems far too calculating to me. Although I am resigned, at least for now, to her continued presence on the show, she better keep her hands off Liz's man!

Chica

If Liz is the Guardian of the Granolith, the key Max needs to learn its secrets and operate it, can you imagine what will happen when she visits the pod chamber and enters it? I think that'll tell us a lot of her future role with it. It may recognize her and either start humming, lighting up or beeping! They may not be able to do anything about it because we have much to learn or it may be attributed to Max and her energies "charging up" but... it'll be interesting to watch!

MY THOUGHTS EXACTLY!!!! You read my mind And remember that Liz has Never been to the granilith, Tess said so herself

I'm going a little quote crazy I just figured out how it works.

When Isabel is telling Michael our parents believe MAX went camping, Michael says so now they believe he is a TREEHUGGER???? So I thought who was he hugging for most of this episode, unfortunately, TESS---and this TREE reference reminds me of the HUSKS being compared to TREES??? Are we saying that Tess is a skin????

...Does anyone have an idea as to why we saw the word TRACK 2 behind TESS?...GK, This goes back to my old theory that Tess has the cloned essence of Nasedo's wife who died under Pierce's knife. I had even speculated that Nasedo was a little jealous of the Max thing even though it was his plan, so Nasedo kissed Liz to get even. But Liz initiated the kiss, and I had kind of given up on that theory.

But about the tree hugger ref: good point. quite possible (this is Roswell).

And about Track 2: well, I guess it's obvious, Liz is Track 1 . Or maybe in a run-lola-run world Liz is track 2.
quote:Originally posted by chica:
...There has been discussion about mistakes Max might have made as the former leader, and I'm kind of wondering where that comes from. Have we really been given info that he made mistakes or is this just speculation? It seems that any time criticism has been directed toward his reign, the source has been highly suspect (from the enemy)chica, Good point on the bad choices.

Starbox, re: "I remember correctly in EOTW she said "Max Evans can go to HELL for all I care". I think her sugary-sweetness to him is 100% an act."
Quite possibly.

And re Tictac as Ava, well, I used to think (see above) Tictac was Tess.

StephStephSteph, I agree with you on the interpretation of Max's Mona Lisa smile. He's Max; he'll always know. And let's not forget what happened immediately after the last time he asked Liz to be 'just friends'...um, recall Sh, anyone?

Run-Lola-Run thoughts: maybe the 2 different sets of podsters were different because they wanted to try different versions in hopes that one would be right.

Qfanny, good clarification on Liz's power to astroproject as opposed to dreamwalk or Tessovision.

I'm too tired to say much, but I what to ramble a bit.

I think astro protection will be only one of many powers Liz will eventually possess. I think she is still evoling, and the look that Ava gave Liz tells me that there is more to it than that (the whole prophecy theory).

I too think that Tic Tac is the thing that observed Max at school, Harding in the alley and Maria & Liz in Wipeout! If not Tic Tac than some alien that is NOT a Skin. We were led to believe it was a Skin, but I think that was misleading.

I think Ava is Tess' conterpart, but due to nurture issues and potential engineering differences is a whole different character. I think we will see more of Ava - and I would like to think that the bonding with Liz was not for nothing! Remember it was Liz that brought Ava in out of the cold, offered her a place to sleep, protected her from the rath of Iz and Mikey G, and gave her the warm send off - accepting her not for who or what she was, but just because she was. But why Ava just took off, didn't make sense - where was she headed. I always have more questions than answers after each episode. I understand that these episodes were written with the thought that they had to cram as much as possible into each in case the show was cancelled. With the back 9 now on order, I'm hoping they will slow down and explain a few things in more detail and answer some (lots of!) questions.

I find it interesting that the writers chose Brody to be the possessed body (Larek) that was Max's friend in the previous life (he must be an old man now - assuming time and aging is in any way related). Someone mention Max as the King of 5 planets. My take is that Max was the Kind of only the planet that Khivar is currently ruling, and that the four others present are the leaders/rulers of their respective planets. It sounded like everyone was warring with everyone else since the Royal 4 were slaughtered, which means that Max's family had a huge influence over keeping the peace, and that his followers have been warring since. Ummm ..... So many questions. I would like to see Max final find an ally with someone from the home world, that could fill him in. I think the whole peace summit was a joke given Max's knowledge base - which Larek seemed to know based on his comment "you probably don't remember any of this."

I like the idea of the Granolith being a sort of Holy Grail!

The lack of Liz's presence at Harding's attempted healing takes on more significance now that we know she is (and has been) developing powers! Also, as has been said before, too bad she didn't step forward to offer her energy to Max in Harvest.

I too think Tess is falling for Max, but given the lack of affection she has had in the pass, I still think the feelings she has for Max are not founded in reality. I can hardly wait to see how she reacts to Liz with powers???

I do think the idea that Tess is not Tess is interesting, but I think it is Tess, and that we will find out that the fireball in Wipeout was not a fluke, and that she used a similar power to protect herself from Lonnie, Rath and Nike-O (rhymes with Sick-O ). I think we will find that the references to Tess by Nick-O will prove true, and that she was a power hungry, poor-match for Max on Twilo. Who knows, but ....

Did someone mention that the bunny ears that Max makes over Liz at the end of MITC is also the V shape? Little more symbolism there.

Someone asked about the Red Giant - Liz gets a vision of the Red Giant while kissing Max back in Season 1 - that is why it's destruction is so significant here.

Oh - and something that has been bugging me. Being the "keeper" of the timeline, a number of people have stated that Max got off the bus in 3rd grade, but it is actually when he is 6-years-old, in K or 1st grade that he gets off the bus and first sees Liz (and she does look back at him) - they just don't get to know each other until 3rd grade. It is very possible for kids to go to the same school and not really get to know one another until in class together. I've been rewatching some of the old episodes, and Max was 6 when he healed the pigeon, and it is the same age as when he got off the bus. Okay - getting off my anal retentive high-horse now!

Till tomorrow!! I'm sure I will have more to comment on - I do now, I just can't remember any of it!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

I had been thinking about the Granolith, what it could be and why Liz is needed to make it work? One word came to mind, ORACLE. Here is some reserch on the subject.

Oracle- One held to give divinely inspired answers or revelations. A person of great authority or wisdom.

The Oracles importance in the religions of the Greeks and Romans would be difficult to overstate. It was bind legally or morally for political and military leaders to use as protection, before any important action, else they could be accused of failing to seek the advice of the gods.

The Oracle has the ability to raise human consciousness to be able to foresee future events or has a connection to the Future. In a world that was so uncertain and could be downright hostile -this was considered an essential practise. By knowing the will of the Gods, action could be taken. Without it we are as the blind fumbling forward into the unknown.

Types of prophecy can be classified on the basis of inspiration, or behaviour. Prophets include seers, oracle givers, soothsayers, and mantics (diviners), all of whom predict the future or tell the divine will make statements by means of instruments, dreams, telepathy, clairvoyance, or visions received in the frenzied state of ecstasy.

I was amazed when I read the part about the connection to the future,(EOTW) and also the visions received in the frenzied state of ecstasy.(SH) Now as I see it Liz could be the Oracle and the Granolith her Instrument. Or the Oracle is the Granolith and needs Liz as it's channel. Either way you look at it, one can not work with out the other. Now how is that for Liz being important.

Evid

********************************************

Then again - she COULD be working with Lonnie (notice that Lonnie doesnt seem to give a flying flip about the granolith - other than its use to appease/control Nikolas?).
After all - SOMEONE told Lonnie about the podsters/sent her a YEARBOOK.

And - if you look back - both Lonnie and Tess were playing Max the same way in NYC:

Lonnie - "You are so wonderful - like the brother I NEVER knew, I know you will make the RIGHT decision - millions of lives hand in balance"
Tess - "You are the King, you are so wonderful, I know you will make the RIGHT decision".

I dont think "the girls" were planning on him turning down the deal.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Morning Everyone!

Ree99 and whoever else caught this: Good catch on Larek
A) not being surprised at being called Brody (i.e. Max knowing him),
B) traveling completely across the country when this possession thing is so taxing
C) the discrepancies with what he told Max - just like the enemies and the mom, how can we trust him when Max can't even remember?

What if the "green glow watcher thing" was not Nasedo, TicTac, etc., but actually what an inhabitation or "Linda Blair" looks like from the inside? Hm?

Track 2 could mean the second Run Lola Run. I mean, Ava left happy ( I think she left cause she realized, like Max so desperately wants to be true for himself, that she doesn't HAVE to do this - maybe it's true about the prophecy, or something that happened on Twilo that she and Tess both remember, and she made the wrong choice there, to hang on, Tess is making the wrong choice her, to hang on, but *Ava* is finally doing the *right thing* ), plus all the other differences - FMax came back, and since then, it's been Track 2? Just a thought.

What if the dupes were made by the enemies? And who's to say the summit wasn't all a set-up by Khivar and/or Nicholas, and the dupes? Remember, Nicholas is *very* powerful, according to Courtney, who I think it's been established that we can trust.

I don't see Liz as the Oracle as much as the key to make the Granolith work. Not only because she'll find the crystal rod, but how to communicate with it, start it, fix it, change it, etc.

Starbox: I agree. I said it first. Tess is Lannie, in more ways than one!

Azcat: I still think the invisible watcher is a good entity, that'll be a help to the podsters in the future.

As for the summit, I don't understand it. It was obviously a set up. The offer was just a trick to bring Max out in the light, but I also think the real Larek, a friend, was present. If that's the case, why did he assist in the charade? We'll only find out after we know more about Zan's reign and the real reasons of his dethronment. I also think, if those were really the other planets' leaders, that things will change for K'var. I think his power over the others was not as much him pulling his muscles but the fact that he controled the Granolith. The fact that it is on Earth and Max has it will change things completely. I wouldn't be surprised if visitors come to Roswell to pledge their loyalty, again!

(I am willing to pay money for somebody to tell me what the heck does that thing do!!! Really!!).

The thing that made me think it was possibly a LB was remembering when Max opened the utility room door and the welder guy was the only person there. I mean, what I thought when I viewed the episode was that Max turned around and saw the door close, which actually had no relation to him being watched. But when welder guy took off his mask and said "What was that?", could he have been referring to more than just the shield Max threw up (I loved that). VERY far-fetched, I know. I just don't think it could be possible that the green light watcher (GLW) could be anyone we know and could have escaped notice, when following them, unless someone we know has the power of being invisible. It kind of rules out Tessovisions, because remember that it's very hard for her to warp many people for more than a short time (like when Max goes into that room where they're testing the corpse).

However, I hold that the skins "death by fire," could still have been a Tessovision, because she screamed ( doesn't de Ravin have a great scream? - about the only cool thing about this character, IMHO ), indicating that this WAS a VERY difficult thing for her to do. I'm starting to trust the writers that these "discrepancies", such as her "killing" the skins, then Nicholas showing up, are intentional, and have an explanation. That's just one more reason to love the show!

(Of course, I think an explanation for Nicholas *could* be that he has such huge powers, or there's just something weird about *him*.)

I too think that Tic Tac is the thing that observed Max at school, Harding in the alley and Maria & Liz in Wipeout! If not Tic Tac than some alien that is NOT a Skin. We were led to believe it was a Skin, but I think that was misleading.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm going to put my $$$$ on Brody/Larek being the INVISIBLE observer in these eps.
And since Larek is from another planet, he probably does have differant powers since he is a differant type of alien.

Thanks!

As for the reruns, the WB in NY (212-949-1100) says 12/4 is Skin & Bones, the 11th is a Teen show, the 18th is A Roswell Christmas Carol, the 25th is a Christmas show with some singer, the 1st. they have a special program from Paradise Island, the 8th is To Serve and Protect, the 15th is Ask Not, the 22nd is Surprise, the 28th is We are Family, and that's all they have. Next week they may have the February schedule. I'll let you know!

Thanks!

Something of interest ( perhaps to give us hope for 3rd season! ) I found on Crashdown - I know it's not Liz mythology, but I thought you all might be interested.

ROSWELL improved its time period over last November +54% in adults 18-34 (2.0), +65% in women 18-34 (2.8), +71% in men 18-34 (1.2), +36% in persons 12-34 (2.6), +35% in women 12-34 (3.5), +31% in men 18-34 (1.7), +46% in adults 18-49 (1.9), +32% in women 18-49 (2.5), +86% in men 18-49 (1.3) and +7% in both total viewers (4.5 million) and households (3.1).

[/B][/QUOTE]

LOL! Actually I meant to add that Tess DOES project herself into her Tess-O-Visions.
When she demonstrated this power for Isabel - remember how she made Isabel see her getting carried off screaming by a FBI agent.
Also - I have always assumed that Max's "visions" of kissing Tess in TLV and WR were tess-o-visions and she was in those.

That said - I do agree that what Liz did with Max in NYC was different from both dream walking and mindwarping.

**StarBox**
mythologist, dreamer

Nesedo said in WR that their powers were those of advanced humans. Perhaps, Max just accelerated Liz's cells during the healing that transformed them to an advanced human stage. Maybe we're not looking at "alien" powers at all, just those of advanced human development.

This would explain something for me. How would Max know how to heal? We know it is molecular manipulation, but he needs to know what the "corrected" or healthy version would be if he needs to change injured tissue(or whatever) back to "normal". Doesn't it make sense that "normal" to him would be the same anatomy as himself? Then, when he healed Liz, he changed her own anatomy to more closely resemble his own.

As for Kyle, I'll have to think about it. (I don't think, although I don't remember if, Max held/touched Kyle's head the way he did Liz's when he healed her. ...This is a first attempt to explain the whole powers/"is changed" thing for Liz)

Thanks for the AMAZING theories on this thread. I thoroughly love reading them. In fact, I probably don't come here as often as I'd like BECAUSE when I start reading I get totally lost in the ideas floating around. Love the dragon/Venus/Fifth element theories!!

BehrHugs,
Ashton

About Larek needing to prepare the body he was taking, I disagree. I looked at the transcripts on Crash down when Brody confides to Max about the abduction. broday says, "...one day I'm driving my car down the Mass. turnpike next thing I know I'm in the room...two days go by and I'm in West Virginia" If whoever didn't need to prepare him that time, why now?

It would be much easier to be on Earth in person and communicate to the home planet allowing Larek to rule. Nicolas must be doing it in order to give Kavar's demands at the Summit.

Ree99: You mentioned that Larek looked disappointed after Max gave his answer. Larek's look could be viewed as someone making up their mind to follow a specific path.

When Brody returns to Roswell he keeps his cover with Maria. It will be interesting to see how Brody reacts when he sees Max & Tess.

Like I've said in other posts...I don't see why, if Larek really is on another planet, he would use Brody's body and travel all the way from NM to NY. The only resonable conclusion I can can come to is that Larek actually is here on earth AS Brody.

I want him to be a good guy. Perhalps, after the crash in '47 the surviving aliens (ie Nasedo) were unable to contact their home planet. (the FBI did have one of the orbs) So maybe Larek has been on earth (without Kavar's knowledge) for several years looking for the royal 4, to protect/assist them.

Remember he does have an alien beeper thing, he craves pepperjack an awful lot, and I think his stories about being abducted were just a cover to explain why he takes off.

Maybe he's not the invisible one watching them, after all...wasn't Michael "watched" that night he left his pocket knife in the desert, right before he found some "skin"?
But maybe our archeologist friend left that behind.

I do think whatever it is, is invisible, and I don't think that it is a skin, here is why:
Unless these husks have special powers, they are just shells/trees and we know for a fact that the skins can't live outside of them. So I doubt that they are capable.

I'm not much of a gambler, so how about $1

So many questions, so few answers.

Someone tell me if I'm wrong...but weren't M/T/Mi being *watched* in the school before they found Iz?

What if that was Brody/Larek (invisible so that his cover wouldn't be blown) then he would've known that Nicolas was dead, and that the one at the summit was a fraud.

I forget, was Nico (or any of the other embisaries) in the room when Larek talked to Max?

Has anyone looked into the Gracekell clicking question yet? I am very curious and will re-watch the ending again to maybe contribute my ideas.

I took yesterday off to rest and spent the day--you guessed it--watching Roswell!!

I have a few comments:

Zero & Starstruck--I agree that it is weird that they all have the foursquare symbol tatooed to their arms. Not only does the foursquare symbol represent the Pod Squad but it signifies a place on the map!! That just further proves that the RosPod are the true Royal 4. Unless there is another place on the map for NY? Does anyone know if there is one? I didn't think there was, but I could be wrong.

About Tess being manipulative--why does she say in TLV "It was a mistake you made." It bugs me how manipulative she is.

About other planets attaching eachother not making sense--it does make sense. Here on earth we have alliances. Just like how things went during WWII, that seems to be how the "cards" are falling for these 5 warring planets.

In terms of the names--all the dupes have the names of what the Royal 4 are called on their planet. That is why Max says that is what his name was before.

Astro Projecting--since I have actually astro projected I will tell you what happens--your soul moves away from your body and you can be in more than one place at a time. You can think about how Lois Duncan describes it: as if you have a cord connected to your belly button which can stretch out and it can be snapped back into you when you are finished. She describes it pretty well in "Stranger with My Face." Although you really don't see the "cord" that is in effect how it is. I do not remember not having the ability to talk, because I had no reason to talk but it makes sense that you can't talk (no vocal cords) but you can communicate.

So there you have my comments.

-- desirae

Actually what Liz did was a giant cliche on the part of the Roswell team. I've read about people who claim to have seen visions of people they care about saving them from dangerous circumstances. It's a psychic thing. So maybe Liz has psychic powers? Like a 6th sense or something? Could explain why she doesn't trust Tess. Also it was sort of like a dream-or a nightmare because Liz opened her mouth but Max couldn't hear her.

My first thought when Max heard about the dying star was that it was referring to Future Max dying and that is why Max felt so sad and haunted by it. The timing would be about right since the science teacher said it had died the week before. What do you all think?

Rooney

At the end, I had a Maria moment. "This is so unnacceptable!" I trust the writers, but it hurts to keep seeing Liz in this agony at the end of every episode.

I believe tess has a trcik behind her sleeve and something about tic tac being here seems realistic. Nething is possible

Max and LIZ foreveer!!!!

Luv ya Roswell show!!

1) In Celtic history, Britain had many kings, which were collectively ruled by one of their number, who was the High King. Could Max fulfill this role--not only King of Twilo, but High King of the five planets?

2) This is a little out there, but what about the idea of Nicholas as the dupes' protector? In spite of the husk we saw, maybe he isn't a normal Skin at all. That's the first thought I had when he showed up in MITC/JTNY.

Also, re: Liz's arm movements--I think she was saying "Look up!" and trying to gesture towards the scaffolding or whatever.

Last point (for this post!)--I'll be watching MITC/JTNY again tonight, along with my parents, who are not fans. I've asked them to give me their opinion of Max's facial expression at the end of the ep. Since they have no emotional investment (unlike my Dreamer self!), maybe they'll see a little more clearly!

I think all this talk about the holy grail, protectors and oracles is quite fascinating. What I find so intriguing is that the Granolith story is so similar to the "Orb of the Prophets" story in DS9(Deep Space 9). In the 6th and 7th seasons of DS9 there was a story arc involving a holy grail(the Orb of the Prophets), an emissary, a protector and an oracle. And who worked on DS9? Ronald Moore. Is it just coincidence that the Granolith story only came into play during the second season---the same season Ron came aboard as a writer and producer? I think we are definitely seeing his handywork in all this. If Ron decides to follow the DS9 emissary story as his model for Roswell, then boy are we in for a ride!

Scooby

This one in particular caught my attention.

then I remembered it reminded me of this flash from SH

Looks like the younger Liz was playing wedding too.

just downloading the interviews from http://www.silverhandprint.com/interview/index.html since my connection at home is sooo slow.

Did anyone get this to work? I don't have a sound card at work, and as Shapeshifter, my computer at home is also snail paced -- one interview took about 20 minutes to load and then the sound cut out so badly that I couldn't understand a thing.

Chica

The silverhandprint interviews work. They are the actors being interviewed "in character". They do take a while to download on my connection too.

And Bluecornmoon, I also really like Brody and don’t want him to be a bad guy! I honestly don’t think Brody is, but Larek is an entirely different story IMHO! (I just hope Larek doesn’t rear his ugly head during a tender moment with Maria!)

Rockgoddess, you mentioned that Larek’s look could be viewed as someone making up their mind to follow a specific path. I think you may be right, but I also think that Larek is not a friend to Max. Here’s another reason I DON’T TRUST LAREK: Right after Max confesses that he’s got the granolith, notice the reactions of Larek and the woman on Nicholas’s left (can’t remember her name). It seemed to me that they reflexively, almost violently, swing back to look at Nicholas with deer-in-the-headlight faces. I’m tellin’ ya, they look like people standing on the deck of a sinking Titanic. So, maybe the way Brody looked at Max wasn’t just simply someone making up their mind to follow a specific path, but someone who feels once again that the path he chose (i.e., to fall in with Nicholas) was the correct one after all.

Ree99

p.s. Have I mentioned that I DON’T TRUST LAREK?

BTW, today is the first anniversary of Max and Liz's first kiss (a year ago, they kissed in Heatwave!). I wish for all of you to have a session similar to that one with whomever brings you the same feelings those two awaken in each other!! (no postings for the weekend, then!)

Ashton: Hi! Such a pleasure reading anything you have to say! Anything at all! Just stop and finish your fanfics!!

Rockgoddess: Maybe Brody didn't have to have his body prepared. Maybe, as Maria said, it's special already (more opened neurons, bigger quantities of synopsis, latent psychic ability, who knows?), and that's why he is on the list of "Earthly bodies we know will function when possessed", a most select list somewhere in Twilo!

Rooney: Very intriguing question. Let's see: If End of the World was on Day One, Harvest started on Day 2, they arrived into Copper Summit on Day 3, destroyed, escaped and traveled same day, arrived on Day 4, the tour bus arrived into Roswell on Day 5, which was a Saturday (Nick said: school on Saturday?), then Mr. Seligman said the planet was destroyed one week ago on Day 7, which coincidentally is the day Zan died! OMG! Poor Max! No wonder he was upset, both his DNAs died the same day!

Azcat: your post made me think and I made a quick survey: out of 31 eps, Miss Liz has ended the episode crying 8 times, scared 6, happy 2 (TWO????), sad 8, not so sad 7. I'm starting to rethink that relationship! With those odds she may be better off with Larry! (kidding... if Max is the end result, is fine with me!

Finally (sorry) The Scoobygang: Yes, Young Liz was practicing her wedding at 8 but... was is that egg in the background?

The trailer for the next new ep is up and it is very dreamy at the end.

Go directly here to download. http://www.thewb.com/trailer/roswell/video/christmas.html

It is the promo for the Xmas ep.

Rooney: Very intriguing question. Let's see: If End of the World was on Day One, Harvest started on Day 2, they arrived into Copper Summit on Day 3, destroyed, escaped and traveled same day, arrived on Day 4, the tour bus arrived into Roswell on Day 5, which was a Saturday (Nick said: school on Saturday?), then Mr. Seligman said the planet was destroyed one week ago on Day 7, which coincidentally is the day Zan died! OMG! Poor Max! No wonder he was upset, both his DNAs died the same day!

I'm sorry, but did I miss something?
Was there a third Max back on his home planet?
I thought his name was "Future Max" who traveled back in time 14 years.
And besides...isn't it true that what we see happening w/ the stars today actually happened many many years ago? (depending on the distance that the light has to travel before it reaches earth) So when the teacher said that it "happened last weak" what he really means is that's when earth was able to see it.

ROTFLMHO!

Oppps! A little slip there! I rarely proof my stuff before posting ...

Zero
I Shall Believe

Still, trying to dig through the massive amounts of posts after this ep! Just had to commit on this one, mostly because "The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe" was one of my absolutly favorite books as a child. So here are some interesting things that Ya'll might be able to contimplate on while I try to catch up.
Sorry if any one else has posted this already.

First off, TLTWATW was written by the Christian writer, C.S. Lewis. This book and its sequels are all based on the Bible.
Aslan the Lion=Jesus
Also, FOUR children, 2 brothers and 2 sisters, where instrumental in the battle that finally distroyed the evil Witch. The children where special simply because of what they where, no humans excisted in Narnia (the world where the book takes place) at the time. Their coming and the return of the Great Lion, Aslan, had been fortold in prophacy. One of the four children, Edmund, betrayed his brother and sisters because of his temptation by the Witch, who fed him lies about his almighty importance as the prince she would make him. He was eager to listen to the lies because he felt unloved and out of place with his siblings. But, in the end, he was redemed through Aslan's forgiveness. They all become joint rulers, a Royal Four if you will, with the oldest brother as High King.

This is all I have time for now, but I thought the coralations where interesting.

maybe Liz=Aslan
Tess=the betraying brother/ or maybe isabel/vilandra?
Nesado?/evil aliens/Khivar=the White Witch

What do ya'll think?

RW

BTW - I recently rewatched The Balance - and at the very end they scan up into the sky, and low and behold, the V constellation is present. Way before April/Aries prominence.

Also, when Max heals Liz's glowing hickey in SH, she get visions that appear to be an alien with vision similar to that we have seen recently watching Mikey G at the burial scene, watching Max at school, watching Harding in the alley and watching Maria & Liz in Wipeout. Since Tic Tac shows up at the scene at the end, I wonder if it was Tic Tac that was projecting images to Liz (or Max, but with Liz picking them up) and if it is Tic Tac that has been "watching" our Scooby Gang?? I still believe he smiles when he watches Max and Liz out at the orb site. I Still hold out that Tic Tac and Harding are NOT one and the same. It would be very nice to have Tic Tac be a sort of guardian angel to Max and Liz - Liz in particular.

Finally, the all important next thread. I hope to put it up soon after we reach 250 posts, but be patient moderators. I don't have time to up-date the intro much, but I do have a couple of more new dates. Always on the look out for date/time references. :D

Night all!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!

Rockgoddess...I think you are totally correct about Kavar and the granitlith....

Azcat I think Tasyfa is correct that Liz was throwing her hands up to say...look up at the scaffolding...and we couldn't hear her due to the traffic and noise...

Because in Astro Projecting you can talk...walk...fly and do anything the physical body does and then some...because the soul in the body makes the body perform...and astrally projected it continues to take on the form of the body in an astral plane so it appears simular to the body form and can do all thoes functions as well as astral functions...only when there is no body...and the soul if free does it take on only strictly soul characteristics...

Redhawk ...you might be right about Liz being the key to salvation for the 4...I too think Liz is important to our original fours survival and possible successs...now if the show can survive the season to come to some conclusion that would be great...I'm not sure it can survive into another season with the fast and lose writing we have here...and I think some are reading WAY too much into stuff...like Track 2 and I Love N...in the background...we (the fans) give this much more thought than the writers do... I assure you...

But what a devoted bunch we all are...and i'm just praying and waiting for Maria to blurt out to Max the entire Future Max/Kyle/Liz thing...it better happen before all is said and done

Way back when in the Balance episode, I noticed something that intrigued and bothered me at the same time. Now, having read all of your wonderful theories and posts, I was hoping I could share my thoughts and maybe someone has some other ideas how to explain this. Please forgive me if you've already discussed this, I'm pretty new to this thread and all of these theories so I'm sure I've missed quite a bit.

I'm a big fan of the 4+1, 5th element, twins souls=M/L theories and wonder if the healing ceremony is the beginning of showing the depth of the M/L connection before they even 'connected' as with flashes, etc...

Here's what I observed during the Balance healing ceremony. River Dog had 5 stones but as he passed them out, they only show him giving the stones to 4 of them (Max, Isabel, Maria and Alex). Only 4 drink the water that 'binds' them. Liz is, of course, left out of this because we are to understand she was afraid for someone--Max.

When they switch to the desert scene with Michael in the middle and the 5 'paths' leading to him, 3 meet him in the middle of their own accord (Alex, Maria, Isabel) following their own 'paths'. When we see Max moving toward Michael, we are assuming that Liz is still outside the circle and that she is not part of the healing. She's been told to take a step back and isn't even the camera's view when they begin the scene with the overall view of the circle. She's completely out of the picture. Or so we think.

BUT, when they do the pan from Max/Michael/Liz and the back and forth between M/L...Liz was very much in motion on her way to meet Max in the middle. I say she moved to meet Max instead of Michael because her eyes are locked on Max the entire time. Michael, for her at that moment, is almost a non-entity as she moves forward. AND she and Max were walking in perfect step. If you do frame by frame, you'll see that he and she are both taking a step with their right feet at the exact same time. They both stop at the same time. And the moment Max sees her, he doesn't look back at Michael either...until they switch to Max and Isabel reaching for Michael in the pit.

Now, I know I'm probably reaching quite a bit cuz you'd have to take into consideration the writers and director's attention to detail as well as my still shaky understanding of all your theories, but here's what I'm thinking...

Is it possible the reason Liz was afraid for Max (which never made sense to me except that TPTB needed a semi-valid reason to break M/L up) was not necessarily because she didn't know if she could help him in some future crisis like she states in her journal, but because she instinctively knew in that moment that they could not continue the healing separately? That unless they moved as one unit...one entity...one soul (following the twin or split soul theory), the balance would be upset and Max or she would be 'pulled in' causing a negative reaction like River Dog suggested.

I'm sure I'm getting the terms wrong, but I've read that the number 4 is a 'balancing' number or stabalizing number, right? And the number 5 is a number of action or initiative...something that moves the action forward. Well, if Liz really is the 5th element, she couldn't afford to take part of the healing separate from Max. Her involvement would (given we already have 4 other 'elements') actually have created action they didn't need at that moment. At that moment, they needed to restore balance...which, if I understand the numbers theory correctly...means they could only have 4 'energies' or 'elements' involved.

Also, when River Dog told Maria that Liz needed to find 'her own path', its very possible that even at that time Liz and Max's 'paths' were so intertwined that she really couldn't make a move without him as a separate 'energy'/'element'/unit without causing an even more dire situation for Max or all of them.

I've always believed that Liz has an inner 'sense' of things that the others don't possess...or that her sense is stronger than the others. She's shown that from the very beginning. Without consciously knowing it, even then, she might have recognized the potential harm to Max if they did the ceremony as RD suggested. It would probably be a harm that they might not have been able to recover from. That's what stopped her from proceeding as the others did until she and Max were able to move together as one to complete the healing.

Ok. Those are some of the thoughts roaming my feeble brain. Just thought I'd throw them out to you all and see what you think or if you can add/correct/help me with this.

Thanks for listening!!

BehrHugs,
Ashton

p.s. One other thing to note and then a question. And this could easily be lack of detail by directors, etc, but once Liz began to move forward, it does look like she has a stone in her hand---later Michael takes one from her to place in the wall 'map'. RD might have handed her one and we just didn't see it or maybe something else happened when she stepped in that we didn't see.

The question...if they all needed to drink the water to 'connect' them or bring them into 'the flow', how was Liz was not allowed to drink yet she helped Max complete the ceremony if at that point they weren't alerady interconnected with each other? Just a thought.

Imploded last week... In Roswell time, could it have been linked to the tremendous explosion that blew away the skins in Wipe Out?

Night all!!
Zero
I Shall Believe!
While you're at it, how about mentioning that it's "astral projection"? As in, astral planes, etc.

"Astro projection" is what happens when the Jetsons' dog is in a movie...

In Heatwave, either Liz, or the Radio, says today is Tuesday, December 2cnd. The rave takes place on Friday, so the anniversary of their kiss is the 5th Dec.

Ashton, Liz DOES hold a stone. Riverdog hands one to her, and Michael collects it from her. Look again.

WR.

I had posted a long time ago that I thought that since the Parkers and the Valenti's have been in Roswell before and after the crash that both families are more important then let on. We already agree that Liz is important, but I don't see why Kyle couldn't be either. If he was healed by Max then he should change just as much as Liz does. I agree w/what someone said that is personality has changed. Maybe when Max heals those close to death he leaves a little of his persona w/them. What if the aliens has crashed in Roswell to retreave two very important families from their past. I do believe that Max/Zan probably visited this planet before. Both the Parkers and the Valenti's could have come from their race maybe a brother and sister sent to earth for their protection and have since lived here waiting for thier leader. It is just strange that both families have lived in Roswell forever and are very prominent citizens. To have both Liz and Kyle save from death by Max. Maybe thier is more to it then that.

WR.

I did look...like a thousand times. I know Liz has a stone when she and Max are walking toward each other. As stated, I also know that Michael took one from her, but I didn't see RD give one to her. He gives one to Maria, Max, Isabel, Alex as he's talking then Max asks him a question which he answers then bends down around Michael. I could be wrong though.

BehrHugs,
Ashton

Reggie - Have included "astral projection" in the intro - though no real details. I'm a novice with respect to this concept.

WR - December 2nd fell on a Thursday in 1999, so I've included the party as if it feel on 12/3 and the first kiss on 12/4 (the next evening). Of course - as we all know - the dates are all messed up - in Monsters Topolsky specifically mentions in the career interviews that they have "2 years" to go to college - thus, are 10th graders, but now they seem to be in 12th grade - though I guess they could be oldish 11th graders. Max's birthday works, but ... Okay - off that anal retentive kick again !

I'll be back later to see if we are ready for a new thread - moderators take note!

Oh - and as usual - welcome to all newbies and lurkers!!

Zero
I Shall Believe!

From what I have learned from astro projectin is the inabilty to speak because the physical body is not there and just the soul which is the representation of the spirtual and not the physical which includes speech as well as touch. From my experience it is almost like you are a ghost but so much more. You or your soul has the ability to feel and usually hear but not speak and touch others as well as things I will have to research more but I was at least pretty sure. Darnit now you're gonna make me wonder to death before I find out

Zero: In Morning After, when Topolsky dropped the 10 files and Liz picked them up, that paper with Michael's picture in it said Junior.

WR

First of all, I don't know, maybe it was a glitch in my brain that day - I've watched it again, and she definitely says, Max, no;, then Run Max, Run! Duh, me.

If Lonnie shapeshifted into Tess, killed Rath and Tess, and later they find out that it isn't Tess and do away with her, who does that leave us with? Max, Isabel, Michael and Ava. The original four, imho. I did hear that clicking. Almost like water dripping, almost like a weird mouth noise?

Zero - We are allowed to talk about and post pics from promos, right? Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm unspoiled except for promos and I'd hate to spoil someone.

"I believe in YOU"

Pics taken from the Quicktime promo for ARCC.

LOOK, LOOK... more handholding! Okay, okay, that was my tiny way of making it relevant to this thread.

GraceKel: Hey my half crazed Pod Bud. I also herd the clicking sound. It sounded like someone separating their tongue from the roof of their mouth. Now everyone do it and you will know what I mean.lol Oh, and Grace, I always got your back when it comes to your clue seraching. I know something was put there, or said for a reason when you catch it, and don't you remember? I backed you up on the card game, you my dear friend are not alone in this.

redhawk: Thank you my fellow Dreamer for that X-mas trailer. I must have watched it over a dozen times last night. I also played I Shall Believe at the same time.
For those of you that have yet to download it from the WB site, or can't get the sound. Max tells Liz,"I believe in you," swooooooooon. I can't stop smiling. What a wonderful gift to all the Dreamers.

All this talk about Astral Projection has peeked my interest. If we are to understand the projection we must first understand the Astral Dimension. Here is a little research I wanted to share. For those of you who read the Roswell High books, notice the mention of COLLECTIVE CONSIOUSNESS.

What is the Astral Dimension?

The astral is the closest dimension to the physical.It overlays and permeates the world like a huge mind net, catching and holding all thought. It's contents are created by the collective consciousness of the world mind. It contains all the thoughts, memories, fantasies, and dreams of every living thing in the world. In it, the laws of
sympathetic attraction, or like attracts like, causes this ocean of mind stuff to strata and settle into layers or pools. These pools of thought are more commonly called astral planes, astral worlds, astral
sub planes or astral realms. The higher the intellect, the higher the dimention will project.
The last part sounds like Liz, with her intellect she might be able to vist Twilo.

I think this sounds a lot like the visions Max and Liz had on SH, the thoughts, memories and fantasies. I just hope we can look into their Dreamers in the future, but it might need a N-17 rating.

I believe in you.
Evid

Thank you GraceKel & Evid! You guys always make me smile. So glad this thread is just as welcoming as the Cherishing thread.

Second present of the evening.... I'm getting in the Christmas spirit here. Now all I need to do is start my Christmas shopping. yuck.

...the Leaving Normal alternative ending...

Pics are from the Quicktime interview of JK for LN at the WB.

This one is definitely thread decoration.

Bluecornmoon - I didn't notice Mikey G's status on his records, but it doesn't surprise me. There are two things going on - 1) like the books, the kids are in different grades (in the books, Iz and Maria are in 11th, but Max, Liz and Michael are in 12th), or (and what I think is the case) different writers write the scripts - and this type of continuity was not closely watched (which is surprising), and as the show evolved from a story about High Schoolers that just happen to be aliens (which would make sense to want them in HS as long as possible, just like Dawson's creek - I'm sure they are dealing with what to do with all of them right now - are the all going to go to UC Creektown? ) to a Sci-Fi show about aliens with a significant human connection, it made sense to get them out of HS as soon as possible to allow more traveling and adventure/sci fi storylines. So, what would have started as 10th graders have all of a sudden become 12th graders - but why isn't Liz applying to college? Weren't most applications due recently? I'm anal, but not really - I just wish they would be more consistent with some of the basic details that can't help but jump out at us. I'd be happy to provide the production staff with a character outline for each of the characters and the dateline so that future shows have more continuity!

Off to put up the NEW THREAD! SO - WAIT and go post there!!!

Zero
I Shall Believe (especially after the ARCC Promo!)